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The Composer-Conductor: an Examination of the Relationship and Connection Between Two Disciplines

The Composer-Conductor: an Examination of the Relationship and Connection Between Two Disciplines

The -Conductor: An Examination of the Relationship and Connection between Two Disciplines

D.M.A. Document

Presented in Partial Fulfillment of the Requirements for the Degree of in the Graduate Program in at The Ohio State University

By Zachary Jacob Friedland, M.M. Graduate Program in Music

The Ohio State University

2018

DMA Committee:

Dr. Thomas Wells, Advisor Dr. Anna Gawboy Dr. Russel Mikkelson Dr. Jan Radzynski

Copyright by

Zachary Jacob Friedland

2018

Abstract

This dissertation explores the relationship between composing and from the perspectives of individuals who routinely perform both disciplines.

Sixteen individuals, varying age, gender, and experience provided responses to a structured interview that explored the relationship between composing and conducting. They responded from various perspectives of college directors, college composition , high directors, freelance , and graduate students in music. During the interviews we discussed how their involvement in composing and conducting has affected their outlook on numerous parts of their work including score study, technique, compositional process, and teaching methods. All 16 noted that the conducting informed composing and vice versa, enhancing overall musicianship. While the interviewees’ noted the challenges of conducting one’s own music, overall, the connection between composing and conducting is an invaluable tool that leads to of special experiences for the performers, the audience, and the conductor him/herself. Additional findings include that the longer one is involved with composing and conducting, the more the individual is able to reinforce the connection between their composing, conducting, and performing and get a more mature sense of their overall musicianship.

Finally, a practical study was done with students at The Ohio State University. The goal was to look for observable difference between a conductor who is conducting his/her own music compared to conducting another composer’s work. The results were inconclusive, but I did observe a real need for composers to develop good conducting skills. As a result, I have made several recommendations about the curriculum for undergraduate in

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Composition that I believe will fill in a gap in the young composer’s understanding of the practical side of music making.

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Dedication

To my parents Kevin Friedland and Beth Dworetzky. Thank you for your infinite love and support and for always being there – to drive me to lessons, attend recitals and band concers, and premiers of my music, whether in Kingston, RI, Cambridge, MA, North Augusta,

South Carolina, or Columbus. Your advice, ideas, and reminders to innovate have helped me do better than my best. I love you.

To my grandparents Philip and Florence Dworetzky. You took me to the Metropolitan , the

New York Philharmonic, and instilled in me a love and enjoyment of music. Thank you for sitting in the rain to cheer me on in my first parade, and for every you traveled from New York to hear. The best part of writing a piece was when you got to hear it.

And to my percussion teacher, mentor, and friend Ron Stabile. You helped me find my voice as a young and composer, but your greatest lessons were those of character, which have shaped the way I work with my fellow .

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Acknowledgments

Many thanks to my advisor Dr. Thomas Wells. Your lessons helped me grow as a composer and take my music in new directions. Thanks also to my committee members Dr. Jan

Radzynski, Dr. Anna Gawboy, and Dr. Russel Mikkelson. It was a great honor to have Dr.

Mikkelson conduct the premier of my dissertation composition “ No. 1 for Band: Ohi yo’” with The Ohio State University Wind Symphony.

I extend additional thanks to Dr. Scott Jones, Dr. David Hedgecoth, Dr. Shawn Wallace, and Kris Keith for the multiple times you programed my music with your ensembles.

I am grateful to the 16 key informants who generously shared their time, expertise, insights, and anecdotes with me for the research component of my dissertation. Last, but not least, thanks to the six conductors, five quintet musicians, and five evaluators who volunteered their time to participate in the practicum research component of my dissertation.

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Vita Education 2016 – Present in Musical Arts in Music Composition The Ohio State University (ABD, Projected Graduation, Dec. 2018) 2013 – 2015 Masters of Music in Music Composition | Teaching Artist Certificate The Longy School of Music of Bard College 2008 – 2013 Bachelor of Music in Music Composition University of Rhode Island, Magna Cum Laude

Work Experience 2017 – 2018 Tutor for The Ohio State University School of Music, Anna Gawboy, Supervior 2013 – 2015 Graduate Assistant for Longy School of Music of Bard College, Department of Historical and Theoretical Studies Libor Dudas, Chairperson 2012 – 2016 Administrative Assistant for Kingston Festival Brian Mitchell, Managing Director 2009 – 2012 Student Employee for University of Rhode Island Music Department, Joseph Parillo, Chairperson 2007 Congressional Internship, Home Office of Congressman James Langevin, Nancy Beattie, Constituent Relations Director

Selected Compositions

For Wind Ensemble/ Symphonic Band 2018 Symphony No. 1 for Band: Ohi yo’, for the Ohio State Wind Symphony 2018 Mercury’s Glimpse, for the Ohio State University Symphonic Band 2017 Kapow! for the Ohio State University Collegiate Winds 2017 On Greens of White and Blue, Commissioned by University of Rhode Island College of Arts and Sciences 2016 Mosaic, Commissioned by Kappa Kappa Psi, Kappa Upsilon 2015 Boston Strong, for the Metropolitan Wind Symphony 2015 and Compassion, Commissioned by the Armenian National Committee of Rhode Island 2015 Wind Chimes for 1915, Commissioned by the Armenian National Committee of Rhode Island 2014 Dusk 2012 Leader of the Band, for Archie R. Cole Middle School 2012 Hataali Dances, Commissioned by Woonsocket High School, Woonsocket, RI 2011 Someday, for the Theta Upsilon Chapter of Kappa Kappa Psi, Kingston, RI 2010 American Dreams, URI Symphonic Wind Ensemble, Kingston, RI

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For Chamber Ensemble 2018 Riding Waves ( and Piano), Commissioned by the Kingston Chamber , Kingston, RI 2018 Confluence (), Commissioned by the 4th Annual Symposium on the Effects of Climate Change on the World’s Oceans, District of Columbia 2018 Drift (Reed Quintet), for the TIMBER Reed Quintet, Columbus, OH 2017 Woodland Dawn (Wind Trio) 2017 Currents of Change (String Quartet), for the ICES Annual Science Conference, Fort Lauderdale, FL 2016 Skyglimmer (Viola, Clarinet, Piano Trio) 2013 The Monarch Flew Towards Amber Skies (Piano Trio)

For Voice 2017 Wilderness (Soprano and Piano, Text by Carl Sandburg) 2017 in a Time of War (Soprano and Piano, Text by Alfred Noyes), 2015 Creatures of Nature (Soprano, Piano, and Alto/Tenor , Text by William Blake) 2014 Sailing Songs (Soprano, Piano, and Clarinet, Text by Walt Whitman)

Musical Conducting/Leadership 2017 – 2018 Treasurer, Ohio State University New Music Collective 2016 Conductor and Musical Director, Holy Rosary Band Society, East Providence, RI 2013 – 2014 Conductor, Latitude New Music Ensemble, Cambridge, MA 2013 – Present Managing and Artistic Director, Rhode Island Recording Ensemble, Kingston, RI 2011 – 2013 Assistant Student Conductor, URI Symphonic Wind Ensemble, Kingston, RI 2011 Drum Major, URI Marching Band, Kingston, RI 2010 Vice President of Kappa Kappa Psi, National Honorary Band Fraternity Chapter, Kingston, RI

Discography 2018 “Shades of Green, White, and Blue,” Rhode Island Recording Ensemble

Print Publications 2011 “Someday,” The Podium, National Publication of Kappa Kappa Psi and Tau Beta Sigma, Service Fraternity and Sorority – Fall 2011, p.4

Awards and Recognition 2017 Honorary member of Kappa Kappa Psi – Kappa Upsilon, Marist College 2016, 2017 The Ohio State University School of Music Harris Scholarship in Composition

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2013 Longy School of Music Department Scholarship in Composition 2012 Kappa Kappa Psi W. Francis McBeth Student Musicianship Award (First Recipient in Fraternity History) 2011 James Ladewig Scholarship in 2011 Richard Bearu Hope and Heritage Travel Grant 2010 S. Aronian & G. Gibbs Scholarship in Music Composition 2008 University of Rhode Island Centennial Scholarship

Volunteer and Community Work 2014 – Present Board of Directors, The American Band of Providence 2013 – Present Coordinator, Ronald N. Stabile Memorial Scholarship Concert

Field of Study

Major Field: Music

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Table of Contents Abstract ...... iii Dedication ...... v Acknowledgments ...... vi Vitae ...... vii List of Tables ...... xii List of Figures ...... xiv Introduction ...... 1 Research Design ...... 3 Analysis of Results & Discussion ...... 9 Key Informant Interviews...... 9 Question 1: Are you Composer/Conductor or a Conductor/Composer? ...... 9 Question 2: What do you listen for when you hear a live performance or recorded piece of music? ...... 11 Question 3: Score Study – Preparation of your own vs another composer’s ...... 15 Question 4: Considerations for programming music ...... 19 Question 5: Rehearsal Technique –differences between your own composition vs someone else’s 24 Question 6: Removing yourself from the situation ...... 28 Question 7: When to think like a Composer vs when to think like a conductor ...... 32 Question 8: Where does a composer’s job end and the conductor’s job begin? ...... 39 Question 9: The Question of Interpretation ...... 49 Question 10: Compositional Choices – Meter, Balance, Range, Technical Prowess ...... 55 Question 11: Composition Lessons ...... 58 Question 12: Joys and Challenges of Conducting your own Music ...... 62 Question 13: The Influence of Composing on Conducting and of Conducting on Composing ...... 65 Score Study Data: Results of Practical Application ...... 69 Score Study Discussion ...... 73 Ensemble Evaluation Data ...... 75 Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation Data ...... 89 Conductor Self-Evaluations ...... 114 Practicum Results Discussion ...... 119 Concluding Thoughts ...... 127 Bibliography ...... 137

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Appendix A: Interview Transcriptions ...... 139 Zachary Friedland Interview with Scott Boerma ...... 139 Zachary Friedland Interview with Kaitlin Bove ...... 152 Zachary Friedland Interview with Andrew Boysen Jr...... 166 Zachary Friedland Interview with Paul Brust ...... 175 Zachary Friedland Interview with Lewis J. Buckley ...... 185 Zachary Friedland Interview with Mark Camphouse ...... 192 Zachary Friedland Interview with Roger Cichy ...... 201 Zachary Friedland Interview with Brianna Gatch ...... 214 Zachary Friedland Interview with David Holsinger ...... 221 Zachary Friedland Interview with Konnerth ...... 233 Zachary Friedland Interview with David Leve ...... 240 Zachary Friedland Interview with ...... 248 Zachary Friedland Interview with Gene Pollart ...... 264 Zachary Friedland Interview with Onsby Rose...... 273 Zachary Friedland Interview with Erika Svanoe ...... 282 Zachary Friedland Interview with Jason Tauris ...... 292 Appendix B: Score Study Survey ...... 300 Appendix C: Ensemble Rubric ...... 301 Appendix D: Evaluator Rubric ...... 303 Appendix E: Self Evaluation Rubric ...... 305

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List of Tables Table 1: Score Study, Difference of Method ...... 69 Table 2: Score Study, Audiation ...... 70 Table 3: Score Study, Rehearsal Problems ...... 71 Table 4: Score Study, Anticipating Problems While Composing ...... 72 Table 5: Ensemble Evaluation, Gestural Vocabulary, Condcutor A ...... 75 Table 6: Ensemble Evaluation, Gestural Vocabulary, Condcutor B ...... 76 Table 7: Ensemble Evaluation, Gestural Vocabulary, Condcutor C ...... 76 Table 8: Ensemble Evaluation, Gestural Vocabulary, Conductor D ...... 77 Table 9: Ensemble Evaluation, Gestural Vocabulary, Condcutor E ...... 77 Table 10: Ensemble Evaluation, Gestural Vocabulary, Condcutor F ...... 78 Table 11: Ensemble Evaluation, Rehearsal Comments, Condcutor A ...... 79 Table 12: Ensemble Evaluation, Rehearsal Comments, Conductor B ...... 79 Table 13: Ensemble Evaluation, Rehearsal Comments, Condcutor C ...... 80 Table 14: Ensemble Evaluation, Rehearsal Comments, Condcutor D ...... 80 Table 15: Ensemble Evaluation, Rehearsal Comments, Conductor E ...... 81 Table 16: Ensemble Evaluation, Rehearsal Comments, Condcutor F ...... 82 Table 17: Ensemble Evaluation, Eye Contact, Conductor A ...... 83 Table 18: Ensemble Evaluation, Eye Contact, Conductor B ...... 83 Table 19: Ensemble Evaluation, Eye Contact, Conductor C ...... 83 Table 20: Ensemble Evaluation, Eye Contact, Conductor D ...... 84 Table 21: Ensemble Evaluation, Eye Contact, Condcutor E ...... 84 Table 22: Ensemble Evaluation, Eye Contact, Conductor F ...... 84 Table 23: Ensemble Evaluation, Confidence, Conductor A ...... 85 Table 24: Ensemble Evaluation, Confidence, Conductor B ...... 85 Table 25: Ensemble Evaluation, Confidence, Conductor C ...... 86 Table 26: Ensemble Evaluation, Confidence, Conductor D ...... 87 Table 27: Ensemble Evaluation, Confidence, Conductor E ...... 87 Table 28: Ensemble Evaluation, Confidence, Conductor F ...... 88 Table 29: Conducting Pegagogue Evaluation, Notes and , Conductor A ...... 89 Table 30: Conducting Pedogogue Evaluation, Notes and Rhythms, Conductor B ...... 89 Table 31: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Notes and Rhythms, Conductor C ...... 90 Table 32: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Notes and Rhythms, Conductor D ...... 90 Table 33: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Notes and Rhythms, Conductor E ...... 90 Table 34: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Notes and Rhythms, Condctor F ...... 90 Table 35: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Intonation and Balance, Conductor A ...... 91 Table 36: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Intonation and Balance, Conductor B ...... 91 Table 37: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Intonation and Balance, Conductor C ...... 92 Table 38: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Balance and Intonation, Conductor D ...... 92 Table 39: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Balance and Intonation, Conductor E ...... 92 Table 40: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Intonation and Balance, Conductor F ...... 92 Table 41: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluations, Tempi, Conductor A ...... 93 Table 42: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Tempi, Conductor B ...... 93 Table 43: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Tempi, Conductor C...... 94

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Table 44: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Tempi, Conductor D ...... 94 Table 45: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Tempi, Conductor E ...... 94 Table 46: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Tempi, Conductor F ...... 94 Table 47: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Artistic Expression, Conductor A ...... 95 Table 48: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Artisitc Expression, Conductor B ...... 95 Table 49: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Artisitc Expression, Conductor C ...... 96 Table 50: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Artisitic Expression, Conductor D ...... 96 Table 51: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Artistic Expression, Conductor E ...... 96 Table 52: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Artistic Expression, Conductor F ...... 96 Table 53: Condcuting Pedagogue Evaluation, Gestural Vocabulary, Conductor A ...... 97 Table 54: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Gestural Vocabulary, Condcutor B ...... 98 Table 55: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Gestural Vocabulary, Conductor C ...... 98 Table 56: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Gestural Vocabulary, Conductor D...... 99 Table 57: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Gestural Vocabulary, Conductor E ...... 100 Table 58: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Gestural Vocabulary, Condcutor F ...... 100 Table 59: Condcuting Pedagogue Evaluation, Rehearsal Comments, Conductor A ...... 101 Table 60: Condcuting Pedagogue Evaluation, Rehearsal Comments, Conductor B ...... 102 Table 61: Conducting PEdagogue Evaluation, Rehearsal Comments, Condcutor C ...... 103 Table 62: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Rehearsal Comments, Conductor D ...... 103 Table 63: Condcuting Pedagogue Evaluation, Rehearsal Comments, Conductor E ...... 104 Table 64: Condcuting Pedagogue Evaluation, Rehearsal Comments, Condcutor F...... 104 Table 65: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Eye Contact, Condcutor A ...... 105 Table 66: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Eyue Contact, Condcutor B ...... 106 Table 67: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Eye Contact, Conductor C ...... 106 Table 68: Conducting Peagogue Evaluation, Eye Contact, Conductor D ...... 106 Table 69: Condcuting Pedagogue Evaluation, Eye Contact, Conductor E ...... 107 Table 70: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Eye Contact, Condcutor F ...... 107 Table 71: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Confidence, Condcutor A ...... 108 Table 72: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Confidence, Conductor B ...... 108 Table 73: Condcuting Pedagogue Evaluation, Confidence, Condcutor C ...... 109 Table 74: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Confidence Conductor D ...... 109 Table 75: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Confidence, Conductor E ...... 110 Table 76: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Confidence, Condcutor F ...... 111 Table 77: Self Evaluation, Notes and Rhythms ...... 114 Table 78: Self Evaluation, Balance and Intonation ...... 114 Table 79: Self Evaluation, Tempi ...... 115 Table 80: Self Evaluation, Artisitc Expression ...... 115 Table 81: Self Evaluation, Gestural Vocabulary ...... 115 Table 82: Self Evaluation, Rehearsal Comments...... 116 Table 83: Self Evaluation, Confidence ...... 118

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List of Figures Figure 1:6/4 Section from Alfred Reed's Russian Christmas Music, Clarinet Parts ...... 47 Figure 2: End of Kirkpactrick Fanfare, Brass Parts ...... 51 Figure 3: End of Fantasia in G, Brass and Percussion ...... 55

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Introduction

I loved playing percussion with my high school band. During my junior year, I became increasingly interested in learning about more than just playing the music. I began studying scores for all the parts, and learning how and why the band director programed pieces for upcoming . I was the Drum Major for high school marching band during my senior year and when the band director was absent, another student and I would take turns running band . More than the technicality of the music, I loved conducting and working with my fellow musicians to play a great concert. I began to imagine how it would feel to write and conduct my own music. For my final band concert as a high school student, I wrote and conducted “Pacific Postcards” my first original piece for band, thus starting me on my journey to become a Composer/Conductor.

As an undergraduate at the University of Rhode Island (URI), I studied both composition and conducting. I love composing, but even more, I love the rehearsals, working with the musicians, exchanging ideas, and bringing the music to life. For my senior composition recital, I recruited a group of forty fellow students, community musicians, and several professors to perform the three new works I had written. After one rehearsal in particular, I asked one of my professors for his thoughts on how things went, to which he replied:

“Try to think more like the conductor than the composer.”

His answer has shaped my continual growth as a musician and is the basis for my thesis work. Is there a difference between thinking like a composer and thinking like a conductor?

Having immersed myself in both disciplines, I took it for granted that the two disciplines work seamlessly together to create a shared vision of the music. Were there points of view that I was overlooking? I explored this question and found no journal or magazine articles, about this topic.

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The purpose of this study is to answer the following questions:

1. How does being a composer and conductor influence the way one approaches various aspects of their jobs, including score study, rehearsal technique, compositional process, and teaching methods?

2. What are the unique advantages to conducting your own music and how can one better understand composition and conducting?

3. What are the particular challenges to conducting your own music and how must one adjust to avoid pitfalls during the compositional or rehearsal processes?

4. How does the practice of both composing and conducting enhance an individual’s overall musicianship?

5. What particular pedagogical conclusions can be drawn from this study?

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Research Design

There are two parts to this research; qualitative interviews with key informants and participatory research to demonstrate the practical application of being a both a composer and conductor. The Institutional Review Board at The Ohio State University reviewed and approved this work.

Using my personal network and individuals suggested by Dr. Russel Mikkelson, I recruited and interviewed 16 key informants who self-identified as composer/conductors. They ranged in age, gender, were at varying stages of their careers, and were at different points along the composing/conducting “spectrum.” Some considered themselves more conductors first, others identified primarily as composers; still others fell squarely in the middle. were college band directors, many of whom also taught composition at their respective institutions; three were public school music teachers; two were doctoral students in conducting. The remaining four included a college composition professor; an adjunct college lecturer; a freelance composer (who was a college band director); and a retired conductor. I asked them about their experience working in both disciplines, how they felt each skill informed another, and their overall musicianship.The sixteen participants agreed to be part of the study voluntarily and were not compensated for their time being interviewed. All participants were informed of their rights by The Ohio State University Institutional Review Board and gave permission to be recorded and quoted in this document.

Key Informants:

Scott Boerma – Director of Bands at Western Michigan University and prolific composer/arranger of music for symphonic band and marching band.

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Kaitlin Bove – Current DMA Student in Conducting at the University of Kentucky with significant composing/arranging experience. Ms. Bove is creating an of Caroline

Shaw’s Partita for 8 Voices for Symphonic Band for her dissertation project.

Andrew Boyson – Director of Bands at the University of New Hampshire and prolific composer of music for symphonic band.

Paul Brust – Professor of Composition at the Longy School of Music of Bard College and notable conductor of new music ensembles and .

Lewis J. Buckley – Retired director of the United States Coast Guard Band and current director of the Metropolitan Wind Symphony. Mr. Buckley is a notable composer/arranger of symphonic band music.

Mark Camphouse – Director of Bands at George Mason University and prolific composer of music for symphonic band.

Roger Cichy – Professor of Composition at Providence College. Dr. Cichy has also served as

Director of Bands for Providence College and Iowa State University.

Brianna Gatch – Band Director at Clover Hill High School Virginia with significant composing/arranging experience. Mrs. Gatch recently received her master’s degree in Wind

Pedagogy from the University of Louisville.

David Holsinger – Director of Bands at Lee University and prolific composer of music for symphonic band.

Michael Konnerth – Public School Music Teacher for Warwick School Systems, Rhode Island and -and-coming composer of music for symphonic band. Mr. Konnerth received his master’s degree in conducting from the University of Rhode Island in 2011.

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David Leve – Instructor for Music and at Schoolcraft College with significant composing and conducting experience. Mr. Leve received his master’s degree in music composition from The Longy School of Music of Bard College in 2015.

Timothy Mahr – Director of Bands at St. Olaf College and prolific composer of music for symphonic band.

Gene Pollart – Director of Bands at the University of Rhode Island with significant experience composing/arranging for band and percussion ensembles.

Onsby Rose – Current DMA Student in Conducting at The Ohio State University. Mr. Rose has recently begun to compose several notable works for the symphonic band genre.

Erika Svanoe – Director of Bands at Augsburg University. Ms. Svanoe has recently begun to compose several notable works for the symphonic band genre.

Jason Taurins – Band Director at Santa Cruz Valley Unified School District #35, Rio Rico

Arizona and up-and-coming composer for symphonic band and new music. Mr. Taurins is currently enrolled in an online master’s program at the University of Florida.

The questions for the interviews were designed in consultation with my dissertation committee and addressed numerous aspects of each participant’s work including compositional process, score study, rehearsal technique, teaching applications, and general overall musicianship. The order in which I asked the questions often varied depending on the flow of the conversation. On occasion, I asked additional follow up questions based on an individual participant’s responses. The interview guide included 13 questions. Appendix A includes the transcript for each interview.

1) Composer/Coductor or Conductor/Composer? When did you starting doing both/the

other?

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2) When you are at a concert, do you find yourself listening more to the compositional

aspects of the music, or evaluating the performance of the group? How does that question

apply when listening to a performance/recording of your own composition?

3) How is it different preparing your own score vs. preparing someone else’s score?

4) How does being a composer/conductor influence the way you program? When looking at

a score for the first time, do you find yourself first looking at the composition itself, or

thinking about the challenges it may pose for the group?

5) Do you rehearse your own music differently than music by other composers?

6) Is it harder or easier to remove yourself from one of your own pieces? Can you conduct

your own composition as if it were someone else’s?

7) Is there a time to “think like the composer” and a time to “think like the conductor”?

How are those thoughts different in your mind?

8) Where does the composer’s job end and the conductor’s job begin?

9) Does your interpretation of your own music ever change by hearing others conduct it? Or

visa versa, has a composer ever told you that you gave him/her a new interpretation of

his/her own work?

10) How does your experience conducting influence the way you choose your meters,

balance, range, and technical prowess?

11) When giving someone a composition lesson, do you ever find your experience as a

conductor plays a strong role in what you have to say about the piece?

12) Are there things in particular you like about conducting your own music? Are there

particular challenges you find in conducting your own music?

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13) How do you feel your experience as a composer and conductor influences both of those

skills?

The second part of the research was a practical application of research questions, specifically to evaluate any differences in conducting one’s own music versus someone else’s music. Six students at The Ohio State University, three majoring in composition and the other three majoring in conducting, ranging in age and expertise, participated.

All participants in the practical research - ensemble members, composer/conductors, and evaluators - chose to remain anonymous. The composer/conductors and evaluators are identified by letter only in this and other sections of the dissertation.

Conductor A – A second-year master’s student in wind conducting.

Conductor B – A second-year master’s student in composition.

Conductor C – A second-year doctoral student in composition.

Conductor D – A first-year undergraduate student in composition.

Conductor E – A second-year doctoral student in composition with significant conducting experience.

Conductor F – A first-year undergraduate student in composition currently enrolled in conducting class.

Each student composed a short (12-16 bar) piece for brass quintet and included dynamics, tempi, and other stylistic markings. This would allow the ensemble and those who watched the tapes to evaluate how they chose to handle the composer’s notations. Students swapped scores with one of their peers and studied each score in preparation for rehearsing both his/her own piece and the colleague’s piece with the quintet. Participants completed a survey (Appendix B) about their experience studying both pieces. An ensemble of five brass players, all music

7 students at The Ohio State University, played two pieces for each of the six conductors (his/her own piece and one by his/her colleague). The conductors were videotaped while rehearsing the two pieces. The members of the ensemble did not know if the conductor was conducting his/her own piece or that of his/her colleague. They were asked to observe any differences in how each conductor rehearsed each piece and completing a rubric (Appendix C) immediately following each conductor’s turn on the podium. Depending on their chosen major, the six “conductors” had varying degrees of experience either composing or conduction. Therefore, the rubric was simple comparison between the way each student conducted the two pieces, rather than an assessment of conducting skill.

A panel of five college conducting professors reviewed the tapes and completed a rubric

(Appendix D). They were blinded as to the composer. They also volunteered and were not compensated for their time.

Finally, the conductors watched their own tapes and were asked to complete a rubric about their experience (Appendix E).

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Analysis of Results & Discussion

Using a thematic approach, I analyzed the results of the structured interviews by grouping each key informants’ responses by question. Key Informant Interviews

Question 1: Are you Composer/Conductor or a Conductor/Composer?

Eleven of the interviewees identified as conductor/composers; four identified as composer/conductors; and one identified as a musician. Of the 11 conductor/composers, four started conducting first; the other seven began as composers. who identified as composer/conductors all began as composers. The respondant who identified as a musician began conducting and composing at at the same time. From this sample, it appears that conductors are more likely to delve into the composing than composers are to begin conducting.

David Leve observed that being a composer/conductor “kind of fits the order of operations.” He said, “One would have to first compose before one could conduct.” This observation,about the process of composing a piece and then conducting it yourself, capture the theme that, for the majority of the people in this research sample, the creative process seems to inspire the technical process.

Mark Camphouse considers himself a musician, saying,

I want to emphasize, specifically, I don’t regard myself as a composer only, or a

conductor only, or an educator only. I am a musician…. Frequently we

compartmentalize who we are. I’m a trumpet player, or a , or a flutist, or

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conductor. The thing we have to be dedicated to is the art of music and then within

areas of specialization we have, then that’s a whole other matter.

Camphouse went on to say,

I think composers should have the ability to conduct the music and sadly, a lot of

male composers do not have that ability. I think, to the extent possible, conductors

should have the ability to create something no matter how good it is, so look for

their solo instrument, or even the fragment of a piece and have someone else

conduct it. Learn what it’s like to take the creative process as composer and then

break that down as a lead creator of music making. Composers need to

understand performance and conductors need to understand creativity.

Erich Leinsdorf, the Australian-American conductor echos Camphouse’s sentiments in his book “The Composer’s Advocate” when he says “As an indispensable part of his professional equipment, a conductor must study composition.”1

Mr. Camphouse highlighted one of the key points I found in both the interviews and practical research - more conductors should compose, and particularly more composers should conduct. All 16 interviewees noted the distinct advantages to having both composing and conducting experience. In fact, the practical research highlighted the importance of having lack experience in both disciplines.

Mr. Camphouse, with decades of experience, thinks like a musician, whereas Mr. Leve, with three years of experience, refers to composing and conducting as two different “operations.”

1 , The Composer’s Advocate, (New Haven, Yale University Press, 1981) 19.

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This was a common theme between the more and less experienced interviewees. Younger interviewees talked about composing and conducting separately, while interviewees with more established careers considered conducting and composing to be interconnected.

Question 2: What do you listen for when you hear a live performance or recorded piece of music?

Eleven said that listening to the compositional aspect of the piece, or evaluating the performance of the group depended on the situation. Many of them had, at one time or another, served as adjudicators, guest conductors, or guest composers. How they listened to a piece depended on their role. If listening to new music for the first time, they would primarily listen to the compositional aspects of the music. If it was a piece that they had heard many times, they focused on the technical prowess of the performers. Andrew Boyson, used Percy Grainger’s

Lincolnshire Posy as an example. “If I am listening to like Lincolnshire Posy, I’m not really thinking about Posy anymore.” As one of the most well-known works in the band repertoire, Dr.

Boysen has heard the piece numerous times. He confirmed that the piece was so familiar that he can just sit back and enjoy the music.

Overall, there was no correlation between identification as a composer/conductor or conductor/composer and the responses to this question. Dr. David Holsinger answered,

“Actually, I evaluate the performance of the conductor more than anything…. I just wanna see how they treat certain things ... The music is not secondary but the music's always there so I wanna see what do they do to make the music become more alive, especially wind conductors.”

This is consistent with Dr. Mahr’s response,

At that point in time [when his own music is being conducted by someone else]

I'm intrigued by how the conductor is interpreting the notation and I'm always

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hopeful with my own writing as well as the teaching that I do in my composition

classes. The concern is the translation of idea, that it is direct enough so that

there isn't any question as to what should be done at this point or that point. You

know, I don't mind having a little wiggle room for interpretation but it's such an

inexact system of notation, that it's a struggle to get what you have in your mind

and in your heart into graphite or ink, on a piece of paper to the point that

someone else can interpret it without you having any more input at that point in

time and have it come out and be very close to what you to have happen in

the first place.

Dr. Mahr’s answer heralds a common theme - the idea of interpretation, and more importantly sensitivity to interpretation. He is not as interested in the music itself (the composer’s job) or so much the performance (part of the conductor’s job) but rather the decisions, the musical choices, that the conductor makes to connect to the composer. This sensitivity to interpretation, is a skill that composer/conductors inherently develop because they understand the processes of creation, and re-creation. This heightened sensitivity seems to be back up by Leinsdorf as he notes, “In those documents that tell us what composers felt and what they rejected, the exhortations of composer-conductors are especially strong. This is to be expected: A composer with professional credentials as a conductor will be a more severe judge of other conductors than one who seldom or never directs.”2

This idea is reinforced by Dr. Mahr,

2 Leinsdorf, The Composers, 50.

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And what I mean by that is, and I tell my students this, the highest compliment I

can pay you after, you know, I sat through your routine or recital or something

like that is, you allowed me to have a direct relationship with the composer's

music that you are performing. During the Haydn trumpet and I'm

having an experience with Haydn and I'm not hearing you perform on your

trumpet anymore. You know, I've gone past the performer to the composer. And I

think that's the mark of a really well-prepared piece and is the goal that I have as

a conductor.

Dr. Mahr’s advice to his students highlights the importance of making the connection between composers, conductors, and performers, as real and genuine as possible.

Michael Konnerth echoed those sentiments, saying, “I tend to find myself evaluating the compositional technique that I think that the whole aspect of the quality of the performance helps or hinders the analyzation of it.” Mr. Konnerth notices that when evaluating music, the performance can highly affect the way the music is received. This acknowledges the relationship between the composer and their conductors and performers to connect with and be the

“composer’s advocate” for the piece they are performing.

Gene Pollart shared, “Actually I do both. I listen to the overall effect of the piece, as far as the performance is concerned, but sometimes the piece may intrigue me, to the point where if it is written for wind ensemble or if it might work for the wind ensemble, so actually I do both.”

Whether the key informants considered themselves more of a composer or more of a conductor, it became evident that each individual never entirely stopped thinking about the both

13 composing and conducting. All interviewees were always thinking about listening, score study, rehearsal, and the compositional process – elements of both disciplines.

When asked if they listened differently when hearing their own pieces performed, the composers responded that it depended on the situation and if they were hearing the piece for the first time or had heard it performed many times. If hearing the piece for the first time, the composers unamiously responded they used the opportunity to perform a self-evaluation to hear if the piece worked. “The more times they hear the piece, the more they focused on the “musical moment” , and, as Dr. Boysen shared, listening to hear if the ensemble captured his intentions, his vision, and the musical effect and message that he was trying to portray. The younger interviewees, particularly those who focused primarily on conducting, noted they always evaluated their work, particularly to make sure it worked well for their students.

Of note, two interviewees remarked that they always know exactly what their pieces will sound like the first time it is performed. Roger Cichy shared, “Well, I already know how the piece sounds…I’ve heard it so many times in my head when I wrote it.” Dr. Holsinger simply said, “A finished piece is a finished piece.”

Scott Boerma thinks differently, saying “Well, as a composer you're always hoping for, you're hoping for the perfect recording of the work that you wrote.” It stands to reason, that composers who also conduct have the chance to interact with and have a “personal relationship” with their piece. Not only do we have the chance to create our own musical work, but then we can put our own musical interpretation on it, again, thus being our own “advocate.” However, does trying too hard to chase that perfect performance mean we forget about what the ensemble actually needs? Erika Svanoe has done more composing in the six years. She brought up another

14 interesting take on Dr. Boerma’s point in saying, “I'm already super emotionally invested and so if I do catch a mistake it's a more devastating, but it's also in some ways it's like I'm just excited that my piece is being played and, and so it's a little bit different.” This point was very easy to relate to. As a composer, hearing mistakes, or interpretations of your music that you don’t agree with can be devastating. I’ve had this experience myself. Composing is personal. It relates to the idea of “sensitivity of interpretation” and serves as a reminder to take care when preparing to conduct or perform other composer’s music.

Finally, Dr. Mahr brought up another interesting point by saying, “At that point in time

I'm intrigued by how the conductor is interpreting the notation and I'm always hopeful with my own writing as well as the teaching that I do in my composition classes. The concern is the translation of idea, that's direct enough so that there isn't any question as to what should be done at this point or that point. You know, I don't mind having a little wiggle room for interpretation but it's such an inexact system of notation, that it's a struggle to get what you have in your mind and in your heart into graphite or ink, on a piece of paper, to the point that someone else can interpret it without you having any more input at that point in time and have it come out and be very close to what you wanted to have happen in the first place.” Although his may not be specific to composer/conductors, the subject of the need for improvement on our system of came up multiple times in multiple interviews. Again, by seeing both sides of the process, both the creation and interpretation, composer/conductors may be particularly sensitive and observant of these issues as I will discuss that more later on.

Question 3: Score Study – Preparation of your own vs another composer’s

One of the major aspects of composing and conducting is score study. I asked each interviewee if he or she prepared their own scores differently than they prepared other

15 composer’s scores. Twelve interviewees revealed that study their own scores significantly less than others’ scores or not at all. Dr. Boysen spoke for these 12 respondents with the following explanation, “I think while you’re composing you are so deep in that piece, if I could get my score study to the point where I felt like I was composing this, then that would be ideal. Just to know every note, that would really be ideal in a way.” In fact, the majority of the interviewees agreed the process of composing a piece is similar to doing a score study. Professor Camphouse addressed the similarity between composing and score study with the following. “

There’s this piece I’ve been working on right now. I’ve been living with this piece

for three or four months, in various stages of incubation, starting with the first

sketches, the piano score, and now I’m orchestrating from the very first sketch.

Yeah, how can you not. It becomes such an intense part of you during the creative

process.

Dr. Camphouse expanded about the importance of spending more time preparing the other composers’ scores than his own.

I think that I owe it to the other composer, whether it’s a still living composer, or

a deceased composer or whatever the case may be, I look to the composer to do

my best to understand the structure, understanding the harmonic language, yeah,

I think I probably do more homework on other people’s music than my own.

Professor Camphouse reinforced that composer/conductors can be ideal advocates for composers. Jason Taurins, high school band director in Rio Rico, Arizona iterated this sentiment saying, “When, I’m studying another person’s score, I try to get into the composer’s mind and

16 think about what they were thinking, what particular or texture, or something like that.”

This illustrates that an important part of score study is non-musical. When a composers conducts they bring with them an awareness to try to understand another composer’s intentions and choices, whether they be symbolic to the subject matter, programmatic, or otherwise.

Composer/conductors, with their intimate knowledge of the creative process, bring a unique perspective to score study and preparation.

Four conductor/composers, all primarily conductors, reported they did not study their own scores any differently than other people’s scores. Mr. Konnerth noted that although he sticks to his process and methodology for his own scores as far as anticipating problems and rehearsal structure, he does save time by not researching the composer and why he or she wrote the piece.

“When it comes to the composer’s intentions, I just know what my intentions were.”

Mr. Rose, who has only been composing for a few years, admitted he struggles to study his own scores. While he tried to keep his process pretty much the same (although like many others, found that he already knew the music) he noted “What I’ve found is that I can go back and I can find things in my own music that I didn’t realize.” I found it very interesting to compare this observation to Dr. Holsinger’s response

I'm very aware of what the score looks like and what the parts look like to the

performer. I'm very aware that there are problems with certain instruments. Like

I'm very aware of the problems I would have as a conductor, conducting this new

piece, as a composer. So that all kinda just runs together. I'm not sure how to

answer that because a lot of the times in my case, it's always been intuitive.

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One can see the contrast between Mr. Rose, a less experienced composer and Dr.

Holsinger, who has decades of experience both as a composer and as a conductor. For Dr.

Holsigner the composing and conducting processes are combined. He is already thinking about the score study and the conducting while he is composing. It appears that the longer an individual engages in both composing and conducting, the more the two disciplines become a seamless thought process.

A few interviewees noted that being a composer gave them an advantage when it came to score study. Dr. Boerma explained, “I believe I get to the heart of a piece more initially than I would if I were not a composer as an orchestrator or arranger.” Dr. Boerma uses his hands-on involvement in the creative process to study other composer’s works. Similarly, Dr. Boysen noted, “there is always a logic to what I do in writing and I am always searching for that logic in other pieces.” Composers are trained to look at scores from the inside out, constantly analyzing them either for historical perspective or to gain ideas for our own compositions. These skills, s combined with hands-on experience, allows a composer to know what to look for when studying others’ scores.

Dr. Mahr teaches a workshop called “Some Thoughts on Score Study from the

Composer’s Perspective.” Mahr explains,

And one of the things that I do is I'll just start with a blank staff on a chalkboard

or whiteboard or something like this. Then I'll make a circular note head and I

tell them,”Every time I make a mark, listen internally. I want you to hear what I'm

writing." And I'll go through filling in the note head, adding a , putting a dot

on the note head, putting an accent over it, tying it to another note, if it's a

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sixteenth note, making it a fortepiano, crescendo up to fourth slow release, little

markings on it, I write in adagio then I put it in alto clef. You know, 'cause most of

them were hearing it in their home clef.

Dr. Mahr explains further,

I hadn't added that basic information. And by the time I'm all done, it's usually

about 15 to 18 markings that have spots that define one little moment. And

because I use alto clefs I joke with it a bit and say, ’Now imagine that I've given

each of you a viola,’ which would be a stupid thing to do and they all laugh. And

then have each one of you play that and each one of you is gonna make a different

sound. And that's just one moment in a piece of music. Imagine if this were a

moment within a Mahler symphony or something like that.

This reveals what I see as another key advantage composers have in score study.

We are constantly putting little details into our pieces that make them special to us and

hopefully to the performers and the audience. When we listen to a performance of our

music we are sensitive to hearing a note playing with a wrong articulation, or not released

in the right way. This experience trains us to be sensitive to looking for these details in

the music of others and making sure we get it just right. And each interpretation will be a

little different, we all have that feeling of “owing it to the composer” that Mr. Camphouse

spoke of to pay attention to all the details of the music.

Question 4: Considerations for programming music

Thirteen respondents said being a composer/conductor influenced the way they

programed music for concerts. From the responses, it was clear that compsers are very aware of

19 the new music that is being written. Dr. Cichy shared that he likes varity and that he tries “to find pieces that satisfied different styles and ideas….”

When programming music, Mr. Taurins chooses

…lots of pieces by living composers …. And there are so many wonderful

composers out there I don’t know why so many, now I’m being a little bit political

here, but so many treat music like it’s only written by dead white people and that

composition stopped 100 years ago. But um I think that the composer part of my

identity has forced me to want to play living composers, people who are writing

exciting new music rather than the same piece we’ve heard 100 times before.

Another thing about composers being um a white men’s club or a white European

men’s club is also forcing considerations of social justice. Am I including pieces

by Mexican composers since I teach a lot of students of Mexican descent um, am I

choosing music by Black composers, am I choosing music by Native American

composers, am I choosing music written by women? And it’s hard because not a

lot of publishers publish that kind of stuff so I rely on my network of composers to

find out that music and that helps me out as a conductor and choosing the

repertoire.

Mr. Taurins’ awareness of including cultural and gender diversity in his choices gives his students exposure to a wider array of musical styles and genres, providing a richer experience for his studnets. Dr. Svanoe also takes diversity into account:

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I'm seeking out women, people of color, and sort of prioritizing them in my work.

So finding those works, contenders and then finding things that are going to work

on a program, this, those pieces. So, I think it's becoming a bigger part of the

conductor conversation right now is…to find the work of the composers who…the

minority of composers.

Of note, Dr. Svanoe was one of only three women composer/conductors that I interviewed. It was hard to identifywomen composer/conductors. In Leinsdorf’s book, which was published in 1981, as well as in Gunther Schuller’s book “The Compleat Conductor,” published in 1997, the conductor is always referred to as “him,” ‘his,” or “he.” Twenty-one years later, both composing and conducting are still male dominated fields.While women composers and women conductors are becoming more common, women who compose and conduct are still rare.

Kaitlin Bove, a doctoral student at the University of Kentucky is arranging Caroline Shaw’s

“Partita for 8 Voices” for Wind Band. Ms. Bove explains:

I wanted to do something, um, by a female composer because I'm a and I

feel like I haven't really in my experiences, you know, gotten to work with a lot of

women in the profession before. So I thought that would just be a great way for,

even if it's, if it was a woman who has no longer living, just to be able to like kind

of get into her head space and feel like I connected with somebody else in the

profession that is a woman because we are kind of islands, like even when women

are being really successful, they're just all still kind of surrounded by men.

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As Ms. Bove notes, there is still a lack of gender diversity in our profession. The same can be said for minorities. Unfortunately, I was not able to seek out any minority representation among the interviewees.

Dr. Pollart offered an interesting take on the relationship between arranging and programming music noting, “My programming influences what I write.” As noted previously, when asked about his listening habits, Dr. Pollart replied, “sometimes the piece may intrigue me, so the point where if I is written for wind ensemble or if it might work for the wind ensemble.”

With the ability to arrange, he is able to fill in holes in his program with what he believes is the perfect piece for the situation, even if the piece was not previously written for wind ensemble.

This relates back to my point about awareness to new music and diversity in programming. In reference to her dissertation project, Ms. Bove says “I want to make it a collaborative process and I want to be something that really makes sense in terms of the premier. Um, I, what I really want is to have a piece that can stand on its own two legs because a lot of people think like, oh, that's a weird project.” Because of this project, there will be a whole new audience of concert goers that will be able to hear Shaw’s Pulitzer Prize winning piece. Ms. Bove goes on to note:

I'm aggressive about insisting that I, that I get what I want out of a program. So,

for instance, you know, again, if we're going to lead to a high school situation,

like maybe some high school director just goes on like J. W. Pepper editor's picks,

boom, boom, that's the first concert…. But I think because I can compose and

arrange and I'm willing to do that to fill in a hole.

The ability to write and arrange music and then program it gives composer/conductors a fantastic opportunity to expand the repertoire and gives students and audiences new experiences

22 performing and attending concerts and also more flexibility when it comes finding programs that feel just right.

I went on to ask people if upon receiving a score, they first turn their attention to the composition aspects of the piece or the practical considerations of the challenges and playability for their group. Again, the majority said their first consideration was the music itself. As Mr.

Buckley simply put it, “First thing is, is that a good piece of music and then secondly is it going to be a good fit for our group?” With almost all the interviewees being involved in education at some level, they always kept the students in mind in when programming. Dr. Boysen shared, “it always starts for me, like what kind of an experience do I want my students to have. There are all sorts of considerations educationally, and there are also like, musical considerations. I want my students to be moved and I want them to experience different things.” Boysen acknowledged that he believed many conductors also made decisions the other way around, first thinking about suitability, but his answer shows, as a composer, one is always thinking about the music and about the quality of it. Mr. Camphouse elaborated saying, “In the educational environment we have to believe in the piece if we are going to conduct. We have to believe in the piece if we are going to teach it to our students. I’ve never conducted a piece I didn’t believe in.”

A few of the interviewees including Mr. Rose and Mr. Leve responded differently saying they go straight to the practical considerations. Note, Mr. Rose has only recently started composing, and Mr. Leve is one of the youngest interviewees. As I mentioned before, I believe the longer one composes and conducts, the more those two operations become merged. Mr.

Boysen said that many conductors he knew would often think about practical considerations first.

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Therefore, it is possible that these two interviewees are thinking strictly in “conductor mode” while they are programming.

Question 5: Rehearsal Technique –differences between your own composition vs someone else’s

There was a lot of variety in the interviewees’ responses to this question. About half the group, which included quite a few people who are mainly conductors said they either did not rehearse their own pieces any differently or they tried not to. Four of the conductors said there was an element of self-consciousness associated with rehearsing their own music. Ms. Bove described, “When it becomes your piece of music, especially me not being like a fulltime composer because I'm a full time conductor and I composed very little, it's maybe just a little bit more nerve wracking and emotional of like, oh, this is my music.” Ms. Bove went on to explain she felt her job as a conductor was to present the composer’s interpretation of the music, but when you are interpreting your own music the experience changes. This dovetails with the idea that the longer you compose and conduct, the more intertwined the two skills become. Still in the beginning stages of her career, and having done more conducting than composing, Ms. Bove’s explanation demonstrates the separation between the two disciplines.

Dr. Pollart, who is primarily a conductor, has also arranged music throughout his career.

Despite his decades of experience, he admits to feeling a certain degree of self-awareness when working on one of his own pieces. When asked about any difference in rehearsal techniques he replied:

I try not to. But sometimes I tend to do that because I am self-conscious about the

piece that I wrote, so I tend not to spend as much time on it as I probably should.

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Because it’s a piece that I wrote, and the organization that is playing it, whatever

that may be, may think I am doing it for my own purposes, which I’m not.

This brings up an important issue that relates back to programming. When asked about the joys of conducing his own music, Mr. Camphouse replied:

It’s a real privilege. Some conductors conduct an entire program of their own

music. But I’ll tell you, an all Camphouse program would be hell. That’s called

dead programming. I think all Beethoven is dead programming. Or all

Tchaikovsky, and I adore Beethoven and Tchaikovsky and respect them

tremendously.

Mr. Camphouse went on to describe how he programs his own music with his own groups. He puts one Camphouse piece on a program with the George Mason Wind Symphony every other year. That way, students who play for four years of undergrad will play two Camphouse works and a graduate student working on a two-year program will play one. He also never programs more than one of his own pieces per concert when guest conducting an honor band. Mr.

Camphouse also notes that it is important for students to get to play under the direction of a composer saying “It’s a different perspective.”

The importance of working with a composer for both students and directors is a sentiment shared by Dr. Boerma. “No matter how many times you do it, it’s always a unique experience to have them come in and listen to a rehearsal or two. And what are their reactions and thoughts to the music that we saw in our hours and hours studying for hours and hours preparing it.” Dr. Boerma explained how enriching it is when composers and directors work together:

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And so there's this , (sings melody), all dotted rhythms and you know, to

me just seemed to be very pointed (sings melody). And, and he came in and they

really wanted was a more broad, (sings melody), you know, and there's nothing.

We weren't separated or anything. We were just playing it more, kind of pompous

and lifted and he wanted something more broad. And we talked, we talked for,

you know, the three days he was with us about how [he] could notate that in a

score to make it more clear.

Dr. Boerma’s account of this experience shows how much composer/conductors care about the compositional process. As composers we understand how crucial it is to have the experience of working with another living composer, particularly for students.

Having this understanding would no doubt cause at least some composer/conductors to rehearse their own music differently than that of others. The other half of the interviewees, many of whom were mainly composers, said there were indeed distinct difference in their rehearsal methods. Dr. Brust explained “I think, I might spend more time on the expressive aspects of the music perhaps, because I know what they are for me, because I wrote the piece.” This iterates what Mr. Camphouse and Dr. Boerma talked about - that working with a composer is a unique experience that everyone should have. Similarly, Mr. Leve noted, “I’m a little bit more aggressive when rehearsing my own music because I know exactly what I want as the composer.” Composers can feel an innate “closeness” with their pieces. For some composer/conductors, this can be advantageous, for other’s it can be a challenge.

Dr. Boysen provides a great example saying:

26

Well, the question would be do I want to and the answer is no. I think it’s just that

you are so intimately knowledgeable about your own piece, there are things that I

just can’t do with other pieces, that I can do with my own music, like I know

exactly how I want it to sound. Like with other pieces, you know it, you work at it,

but you may not have time to think about the balance between the clarinet

and bassoon. Like when I wrote that piece, I know that, but those are just little

things that can escape you during the score study process. So in that way, I think I

am much more inefficient with somebody else’s piece.

When I wrote this question, I thought back to my experience in my recital and the advice to try to think more like the conductor than the composer. At the time I thought perhaps knowing the piece so well presented a challenge in that it was easier to get lost in the little details of the music such as bass clarinet and bassoon balance instead of paying attention to the piece overall.

However Dr. Boysen sees his knowledge of every detail of his own music as an advantage. He thinks he can rehearse his own music even better than that of others, because he knows exactly what it is supposed to sound like. He is his own best advocate. His experience as a composer makes him aware that when he studies a score he wants to try to get every little detail exactly how the composer wants it, including all the smallest nuances like the balance between two instruments sharing a melody. These are not aspects of the composition that every conductor thinks about. This also illustrates how the current system of notation has limitations and can only say so much. For example, aside from putting something specific in the program notes, or writing a note directly into the score, there is not really any standard notation to indicate exact balance. The best thing one could do would be to give the instruments on the same parts different dynamics. For example, if the composer wanted the bassoon to come out a little bit more over

27 bass clarinet perhaps give the bass clarinet a mezzo-piano and the bassoon a mezzo-forte?

However, at the same time, a whole change in dynamic level may be a bit too much. In the same respect, I have personally experienced multiple instances of writing a long crescendo in my music, knowing I want to the bulk of the crescendo to be played towards the end. And because of that, I have often made that choice when conducting another composer’s score when it seems naturally fitting for the music. But I am aware that is my interpretation and there is a chance the composer envisioned the long crescendo in their piece differently. If we had a system of notation that allowed us to shape crescendos more with curved lines that were not locked into a straight and uniform angle, composers could communicate these choices more concretely. Composers would have an easier way of telling the conductor and performers if they wanted the bulk of the crescendo towards the end, the beginning, or if the crescendo was to be completely even and steady. This theme of knowing exactly how a piece should sound becomes even more prevalent as the discussion continues.

Question 6: Removing yourself from the situation

I thought back to my experience with the rehearsal for my recital and more specifically trying to think more like the conductor than the composer. Early on, I surmised the reason to try to think more like the conductor was to get away from the emotional ties I had to the piece and all the little details and nuances that came with it. I asked each interviewee if they ever found it difficult to remove themselves from one of their own pieces while conducting it and moreover, if they ever thought they could conduct it as if it were someone else’s piece. Thirteen of the sixteen people said conducting their own piece as someone else’s was impossible. Among the most common words found in people’s answers were “emotional,” “connection,” “personal,” and

28

“special.” When I asked Dr. Brust what he liked most about conducting his own music, he gave a very unexpected response:

I wouldn't say I completely love it, actually, because in some ways I'm too close to

it. I don't know if you've interviewed anybody else that's said that, but sometimes

when I'm conducting my own music, I'm not being as technical as I could be. In

other words, I'm not being the conductor. I'm thinking more about composition,

and I might think, oh gee, maybe that should be a forte there. I'm starting to think

about the composition sometimes as opposed to focusing on the act of success, I'm

putting the piece together here.

Similarly, Mr. Konnerth said it was important, “not to over-rehearse because sometimes composers, or composer/conductors get worked up over a small thing and rehearse something until it’s perfectly the way that they imagined it and then they have no time for rehearsing anything else.” It was reassuring to know that what I felt I was struggling with at the time with the details of my own pieces appeared to be a common challenge for composers who were conducting their own music, either because of striving perfection like Dr. Boerma had mentioned, or the challenge of constant self-evaluation and still wanting to “compose” and revise once a piece was finished and in front of the performers.

As I have always known, both from personal experience and learning with my colleagues, composers’ pieces are always very special to them. Mark Camphouse summed it up well saying, “Conducting your own music is really special, particularly when you are working with an outstanding group. It’s such a privilege to have the opportunity to bring to life something that you’ve labored over for many months.” Dr. Mahr described conducting his own pieces with the word “boyish wonder” later explaining, “Even if I've been famous for over 40 years now, it's

29 still a wonder that anybody else wants to make my music happen a little longer. You know, the band in front of me, it hasn't lost its magic, you know?”

Dr. Holsinger’s response, “Hell what kind of a stupid question is that?” took me by surprise, until he explained that it is hard to separate your music from yourself. He went on to say:

I would say the first time you go through a piece, you're thinking more as a

composer, making sure things work. But the same time as a conductor making

sure well do those sounds work? Is that a right way to score that? Is that a

problem? So I don't know. Like I said earlier, I have a hard time separating the

two. Cause all kinda [in] the same basket to me.

It seems to Dr. Holsinger that trying to remove himself from a piece would be like trying to separate composing and conducting. Again, having been working so deeply in both disciplines for so long, they have become so fluid and connect for him it seems like an unnatural thing to do.

There were three people who believed the separation came easier to them. Mr. Buckley simply said, “It isn’t so much a question of removing myself from the piece I’m going to put on conductor mode at that point.” I should note, earlier in the interview Mr. Buckley said he did not study his own scores or rehearse his own music any differently than that of others. Being mainly a conductor and mainly arranging as a side aspect to his career, it is apparent that composing and conducting are two very different things for him, unlike Mr. Camphouse who has been doing both for a long time.

Dr. Boysen had a similar answer, which originally surprised me, compared to the way he talked about rehearsing his own music versus that of others. He first said that he wished he could

30 rehearse the music of other composers with the same efficiency as his own. In particular reference to some older works of his such as “I Am” and “Tricycle,” Dr. Boysen said, “I have done them so many times now, that I am doing it more as a conductor than a composer.” I found this to be an interesting answer but when he began to explain his reasoning it made much more sense.

I’ll still talk about those things that I think are important to bring out because I

wrote it. Things that I always listen for, but in a way it’s no different than doing

Variations on a Korean Folk , because I think I know the way that should be.

So yeah, I think like those pieces don’t feel any different to me than like,

Variations on a Korean Folk Song.

I realized Dr. Boysen’s goal was not to distance himself from his own pieces just because he wrote them such a long time ago. His goal is to bring the works other composers closer to him to enhance is understand of the music. This was one of the first interviews I conducted as part of the project and was the first indication that perhaps I had been asking the “wrong” question.

Even if we could “remove ourselves” from one of our works, would we really want to? If we have the advantage of having written the piece, why try to hide that? Maybe the real challenge should be to conduct someone else’s piece as if it were our own.

Several more answers seemed to follow that trend. Mr. Konnerth said:

Well, I don’t know if it’s possible because it’s your piece and you always have

that personal connection. If I want to remove myself, then I would leave the room

and just go listen to the performance, which is okay too, I don’t think that is bad

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at all, but if you want to remove yourself then I much prefer to have someone else

conduct it with their own interpretation.

If he didn’t want to use his personal connection to the piece to enhance the performance and give the musicians the experience of working with a composer, which as I referenced earlier is something very important. Dr. Cichy referenced a passage he once read about Bernstein studying to conduct Beethoven and the way he researched everything he could about the composer’s life and music. He went on to say, “That’s what you’re trying to do. You’re trying to represent that person by being that person in a sense.” Once again, I was reminded of the very words “composer’s advocate.” The goal of score study and interpretation is not only to be aware of the music, the historical background, the programmatic aspects, but also the composer’s intentions and their personal connection with the music. All these things can better inform the conductor, to the point where the piece becomes your own and, as Dr. Boysen said, “you know how you think it should go,” as if it was your own composition. Composers, having labored over a piece, have a great insight and advantage to know why those musical decisions are so important from their own personal experience. This is another great advantage of being a composer/conductor. When they conduct their own music, they bring their personal experience.

Trying to remove themselves and hide it would only take away from the performance.

Question 7: When to think like a Composer vs when to think like a conductor

I told each interviewee about my undergraduate recital and the advice of “try[ing] to think more like the conductor than the composer.” I asked each person what they thought it

32 meant and if they felt there were times to think like the composer or the conductor. Dr. Mahr was one of the few who interpreted the advice the exact same way I did at the time saying:

Well I guess what they might have been getting at was that if someone tells me to

think more like a conductor, perhaps related to the pedagogical aspect of being

out on the box, can you be in more in teacher mode listening to the sounds,

helping them improve their sound, increase ensemble precision, tighten-up

rhythm, work on blend, you know all of that stuff. If he says that you are thinking

on the box almost like a composer, it might have been that there was a lot of slop

working its way through that we're not catching, you know?

I felt at the time it was a matter of perhaps getting lost in the emotion and small details of the piece and not paying attention to the overall rehearsal process and what the ensemble needed from me as a conductor. But Dr. Mahr went on to say “Given two performances, if one was technically clean, but didn't get at the heart of the piece, and the other one was a little bit sloppy, but just was dripping with everything I tried to put into the score, you know which one I'd want.”

As I mentioned with the score study and the idea of separating one’s self from their own work to conduct, I believe this study is showing that should not be the goal but rather to bring that same connection to the music of others. The goal should be to care about the smallest details of a score and all the emotion behind it to give the composer the most genuine performance possible.

Dr. Cichy gave a much simpler explanation, “So my, thinking on that is that conducting is warranted as another instrument. Um, because when you play this, you got all these physical things you have to do besides the mental process. And so connectedness is the same thing.” Dr.

Cichy seemed to think it was less of a matter of a change in thought process and more of a matter of just learning how to conduct. At the time, I had been taking conducting lessons for about three

33 years and had been in front of a group quite often, so I did not feel uncomfortable on the podium.

However, upon reviewing a tape of myself conducting in 2013 (the spring after the recital) it is easy so see how far I had come since then. In hindsight, perhaps the reason for the advice was not so much to change my way of thinking about conducting my own music, but instead simply a matter of maturity. A need to focus and become more efficient conducting and improving my physical movements on the podium, things I have continued to work on in my conducting lessons through my doctoral studies.

As Dr. Svanoe said:

I'm pretty good at this point in my career at prioritizing what needs to happen in

the rehearsal. Like big stuff. The little stuff. And I don't know if he was maybe

referring to like getting sort of bogged down in minutia of what was really

important as a composer. But I can see that like wanting to, you know, maybe

explain potentially like, this is what I was thinking when really you should be

working on that.

The word prioritizing struck me in particular. Just because you prioritize, it does mean you need to completely think a certain way, like a composer or a conductor, but rather make sure you know when the ensemble needs a particular thing from their conductor at a certain time, whether that be a as simple as locking in a or a more expressive phrasing of the climax of the piece. This would be a skill that develops over the course of years on the podium.

This question brought out the big difference I had been noticing between the interviewees who had been both composing and conducting seriously for a long time and those who were

34 either in the beginning of their careers or focused on one skill more than the other. For example,

Ms. Bove said:

So I think the composers, yeah, it's more of just like a little bit more hands off, a

little bit more like making decisions and choices that are big picture and that are

like long-term. But I think in the moment when you're actually in front of the

ensemble rehearsing the piece to just be in conductor mode.

She clearly differentiated the conductor’s responsibility to perfect the technical side of things from the more emotional connection of the composer (not to say conductors do not feel an emotional connection to the pieces they conduct.) Mr. Leve interpreted the comments as:

I guess you could possibly interpret it more practically than aesthetically.

Because a composer can quite literally put anything down on a piece of paper

conducted with the one that we get that out of the paper. So one is like a list that

means to me it's like one person does the architect. The other burden is actually

building the building.

I found the idea of separating the practical from aesthetic intriguing. I followed up asking him if he thought there was a clear time to think like a composer and think like a conductor to which he replied “Oh, absolutely. Especially for someone who does both. You have to be able to flip the on and off switch.” Along those lines Mr. Taurins said:

I think a conductor and a composer are actually different roles. One is a basic,

artistic blueprint of the score. I guess if you could put everything in the score, it

would be very difficult to read. I guess the conductor is more trying to unify your

35

artistic interpretation within an ensemble, and then also unify the artistic

interpretation.

Instead of using the words practically and aesthetically, Mr. Taurins seemed to refer to the same idea with the terms artistic and interpretation. And finally, Mr. Rose broke down the process of adding composing to his conducting career saying “I found myself that need to do is, okay, I'm going to write this and I'm not going to worry about the conducting aspect of it,” adding, , “I think it’s a good idea to separate the two.”

On the flip side, when talking to some of the interviewees who had been both composing and conducting an extended amount of time, their thoughts about thinking like a composer or thinking like a conductor where much more entertwinded. Mr. Camphouse said:

I don’t think we necessarily need to think like a composer or think like a

conductor. Need to think like a musician. We compartmentalize too much. When

I’m on the podium, particularly in a rehearsal I’m thinking like the composer.

When I am composing a piece, I am thinking a lot like a conductor and a lot like a

performer ….how can it be played better? How can it flow better? How can I

make it easier and more logical for the player? How can I deal with this

and make it easier for the conductor?

Mr. Camphouse, rather than separating the two skills, seems to be constantly thinking about both of them and using the knowledge from one to help the other. Mr. Camphouse went on to describe what he saw as the difference between conductors who can compose and those who do not saying, “In terms of understanding the creative process, they cannot understand it like we do, because it is not a part of who they are. It does not mean they are not a fine conductor and a

36 fine teacher, but as composers we have a leg up on the competition.” I rephrased the question to ask if Dr. Camphouse through composing and conducting are one in the same. “He concurred:

I think composers must acquire good conducting skills along the way. And

conductors must acquire a deeper appreciation of the creative process. And

there’s no better way to acquire a greater appreciation of creative process than

trying it yourself. And it will give conductors a totally different perspective on

what their responsibilities are, again, with the responsibilities of the composer to

know what the responsibilities of the conductor are. The great Austrian conductor

Erich Leinsdorf titled his book, “The Composer’s Advocate.” The one

responsibility of the conductor is to be the composer’s advocate.

Mr. Camphouse encourages all composers and conductors to be interdisciplinary. Having a better understanding of other side of the process, they will be able to use that knowledge and experience to strengthen their skills. Referring back to my thoughts on score study, the conductor who composes is at a great advantage to know not only what to look for in the music of a piece but also in understanding the history and emotion behind it.

Similarly, Dr. Holsinger said:

When I'm composing I'm still thinking about what's being conducted. So I don't

know if I can separate those to tell you the truth. Other people will probably give

you a better answer. I'm not sure I can give you a good answer to that because

there's just, it's kinda like it's all in the same basket to me. I mean I really don't

know how to answer that question.

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Like Mr. Camphouse, Dr. Holsinger seems to think of composing and conducting almost as one big skill that makes for a continuous process of writing, interpreting, and conducting music. Dr. Boysen’s answer broke down the process a little more, again referencing the bass clarinet/bassoon line in his piece “Tricycle.” Those two instruments share nearly same part throughout the entirety of the piece, as is common in a middle school band work. As well as the notes, the dynamics are also identical. The idea of knowing exactly what the balance between the bass clarinet and bassoon should be might be considered a small detail that would be important to the composer as referenced by Dr. Mahr. Dr. Boysen described his thought process saying:

I think the conductor part of me would come out in that moment. I guess from the

composer, if I had the choice to hear my piece without the bass clarinet/bassoon

balance or the ensemble not together, I would want the ensemble together… I

think in that same moment I would react the same way.

Dr. Boysen’s thoughts on the matter seem to fall between keeping the composing and conducting completely separate and completely together. While he recognizes that there are different “parts” of him, he also realizes that the priorities of both composers and conductors are, for the most part, essentially the same.

Ms. Gatch recalled having heard the same comment before while working with a composer for her graduate conducting recital. Like Dr. Boysen, she commented “they are two things and they work in the same direction, especially when doing both, but there is a time to put on your conducting hat and put on your composition hat, I think the only difference between the two from my experience is what you’re listening for.” Like Dr. Boysen she acknowledges that the composer and the conductor are essentially working towards the same goal. To recall Dr.

Boerma, they are chasing that “perfect performance.” She related also to her experience as a

38 horn player and the idea of marking up her music with technical analysis versus being in the moment during the performance saying:

The composition takes place beforehand, but when you are conducting in a

performance you really have to leave that behind and focus in the moment

because I think it is really easy to just get absorbed in the score and in the music

that you are not taking place in the present interaction with the musicians.

What intrigued me about her answers was, unlike many of the other interviewees, she seemed to view the composition process as a bit more technical and the conducting as more expressive. This could be attributed to the fact that she is mainly a conductor who dabbles in composing. However, much like Dr. Mahr expressed, she seems to value an expressive and emotional performance over one that is completely technically proficient. Just because I feel as though people who have been both composing and conducting for a long period of time seem to think of the two things much more fluidly, I do not by any means think that those who think of them more separately are not getting the benefits of doing both and using what they learn in each skill to strengthen the other., As Mr. Camphouse says, the more we are able to use one to enhance the other and constantly have both mindsets in our stream of thought at once, the more our complete understanding of the process comes together.

Question 8: Where does a composer’s job end and the conductor’s job begin?

In his book The Compleat Condcutor, composer/conductor/performer Gunther Schuller says, “It is a conductor’s job to understand the process by which a thousand and one such

‘inevitable’ choices are made by the composer and, as I say, to retrace those steps of creation, to re-create in his conducting that decisional process, not in some merely mechanical rendering but

39 in a manner that is emotionally, expressively inspired by that process.”3 I explored the question of where a composer’s job ends and the conductor’s job begins with my key informants. Mr.

Camphouse’s responded, “I don’t think there’s a beginning and an end to what composers do and what conductors do. It’s a dialog that should go on as long as possible and they should learn from each other.” Ms Bove illustrates the importance of constant communication between the composer and the conductor as she prepared to conduct John Mackey’s “Hymn to a Blue Hour.”

Despite the fact that this piece has been performed numerous times, she time to listen to the recording on Mackey’s website and sat down with him to discuss how he liked the piece to be performed. R. She reasoned that the version on Mr. Mackeys’ website most like how the piece should sound and be heard by listeners.

When possible, it’s exciting to have the opportunity for conductors and composers to sit face to face. When in person meetings are not possible, use of technology, such as Facetime,

Skyp, and other online video chat platforms allows conductors and composers to create fluidity between composing and conducting to the point that composers can even attend rehearsal without having to travel.

Mr. Rose addressed that often the composer won’t be in the room. “The composer, ninety-nine percent of the time, is not there and the conductor has to make those decisions based on his knowledge of the composer.” His answer relates back to the issues discussed about score study and my observation about the composer/conductor’s heightened sensitivity to learn about the composer whose piece they are conducting so they can understand both the music, the emotion, and the connection behind the notes, as if they were conducting someone else’s piece as

3 Gunther Schueller, The Compleat Conductor, (New York, , 1997), 37.

40 their own. As Leinsdorf states, “But to discover the composer’s grand design for each work is both the conductor’s mission and his reward.”4

This does not imply that conductors who do not compose do not put the same care and attention into their score study and effort to either maintain a dialogue with or get to understand the composer of a piece they are conducting. But, as Dr. Boerma emphasizes, having the experience of the other side of the process brings to the table commenting:

I think it's as a conductor, if I see specific things, and I'm going to stick to that

because I know as a composer, [he/she] has painstakingly put this information

together because that is exactly what he or she wants and therefore it's my

responsibility as a conductor can bring that alive.

Having that experience of going through a score, measure by measure, articulation by articulation, voice by voice, Dr. Boerma understands why those things are so important and why these small details might be more important than a conductor realizes at first glance. When I asked him if he ever thought there was a point in conducting his own piece that he stopped being the composer and became just the conductor, he responded, “It's hard to imagine it not happening simultaneously. It just goes together.” His answer once again shows the fluidity that evolves between composing and conducting that many composer/conductors develop.

I did not identify any trends in the responses about the freedom a conductor has to interpret a piece of music. Dr. Boysen had one of the more conservative points of view saying:

4 Leinsdorf, The Composer’s, 63.

41

So I’m not a big fan of people just changing stuff. I’ve heard people say that as a

conductor I want to put my stamp on it…well, no, that’s the wrong tempo, I don’t

know what to tell you.” He went on to say however, “I have only rarely been

upset about what people did to my music, if they changed stuff, or just added stuff

in that was clearly not there, I do however think that, well I don’t know if it’s true

anymore, but it did seem like there was a time when a lot of the military bands, if

it wasn’t on the page, they weren’t doing it, and what results then is often just a

very flat performance.

He gave the following example:

If I’m doing Mozart’s with my grad students, if they do a little ritard

right before the recap, I’m going to say, that’s not there let’s not do it. And they

might say, it’s the recap I wanted to draw attention, the dominant there

beforehand is not for too long, I wanted to stress that just a little bit, and draw

attention to what is happening in the form. I would have no problem with that

whatsoever. So, if there is a reason what you think the composer might have

wanted that, if that is expressing the piece, and in the best form. So, I think there

is room for that, but I don’t think that should be about the performer, I think

that’s gotta happen.

Mr. Rose mentioned using knowledge of the composer to make decisions when they are not in the room. Dr. Boysen values having knowledge of the time period, style of the piece, harmonic structure, and more to allow conductors to make interpretive decisions about the piece, saying:

42

Every version of the piece is gonna sound different depending on who conducted

this piece. It just is because of the size of the ensemble, how they approach the

music, and if someone is gonna mess with it just to mess with it, it’s gonna sound

like that. It’s gonna sound like that group.

His comment reminded me of a Youtube video we were shown on the first day of conducting seminar during my Master’s degree program. It featured almost twenty different performances of the first few chords of Beethoven’s “Eroica.” The striking difference between each and every sound clip shows just what Dr. Boysen is was referring to, that all the factors at play will inherently make no two performances of a piece alike, much like Dr. Mahr’s one-note example in his workshop.

In talking to more conductors it was obvious that one of the biggest factors in interpretation and the job of the conductor came down to practicality. Mr. Buckley said:

I always, my first effort is always to believe what the composer wanted, for

example, I don't screw around with right off the bat. My first step will be

to try to make it work the way I think the composer wanted it to work based on

what I can see. Having said that, if it doesn't work for me or it doesn't work for

the group, I don't hesitate at all to change tempos, interpretations, so forth and so

on.

He went on to explain his reasoning to take a little freedom from time to time saying,

“I've seen so many composers, including great ones [like] Aaron Coplands… and people like that. I've seen recordings of them real quick, uh, conducted their own music at completely different tempos, for example, than the ones they put in the score.”

43

Dr. Brust also favored making decisions with practicality in mind commenting:

I'm assuming the composer knows what they want, and they're handing me a final

version, etc. I will take it at face value, and will go back to the composer once,

however, as I'm setting the score, and I see, perhaps ... dynamic or a low register,

I'd say, and there's also brass playing, I would say, that's where they need to be

focusing on just brass, and I just ... drilling it out.

He went on to say he tries make sure of the dialogue, as Mr. Camphouse said, to make adjustments during the rehearsal process explaining “I like to meet with the composers before I conduct a new piece. Just go over the score with them and after I've looked at it for a bit, and say, okay, here I think we need to focus because of this reason.”

During my Master’s studies at the Longy School of Music, Dr. Brust once conducted a reading session of one of my pieces for the Pierrot ensemble. At the time, I was puruposely non- specific with my tempo markings to give conductors room for interpretation. Before a rehearsal

Dr. Brust came to me inquiring exactly how fast I wanted a particular section to go. I had given the tempo marking of Allegro in the score but he pointed out that Allegro could really mean anything from 118-140 beats per minute. At the time of the conversation he specifically said that he did not know my music and therefore did not have enough knowledge or information to decide on the tempo. I recalled the conversation and went on to ask him, if he was not able to talk with the composer, how his own composition would experience influence the way he would handle an ambiguous tempo marking. He replied:

I'm thinking as a composer, in other words, and not ... to say a conductor would,

so I pretty much have to at some point, because if I'm going to make sense out of

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it musically and expressively, I need to make those decisions. So, I think, okay,

let's see what ... given this and this, these chords here so on, so I think this is

probably what the composer's going for.

As he points out, at some point the conductor needs to make decisions, but his experience as a composer and “thinking like a composer” when he is conducting, much like Mr. Camphouse noted, helps him arrive at these conclusions.

Dr. Svanoe also addressed the need to be practical when talking about factors that influenced her decisions as a conductor, I asked her if she felt like composers and conductors had different priorities. She responded:

You know, as a conductor, we're dealing with live performance and so their

priority is to get the music to the greatest degree for the one time shot, you know,

a lot of like practicing repetition and just in and what is gonna make the sound

with that for this seven minute that we have for that, this piece of art. And then

once it's done, it's done how we can't go back. Uh, that's what it is.

This reminded me of when Dr. Boerma said as composers we are always ‘chasing the perfect performance.’ In many ways, the conductor is as well. Conductors want the piece (and their group) to sound the best and sometimes that means making decisions about how to handle the music to get the best possible results. I asked her if she felt by being involved with both conducting and composing, she was able to bridge the gap between composers and conductors.

She concurred explaining, “I think one informs the other. I think when I look at scores and then doing score analysis as a conductor, um, you know, the preparation for those, it's always more insightful if I can look at it with another piece of music with a composers.” This harkens back to

45 score study and the idea of conducting someone else’s piece as if it were your own, but hones in on the fact that Dr. Svanoe feels that having composed makes her more confident in having to make these interpretive decisions saying:

Because I think that informed my interpretation as a conductor. Um, you know, I

think the deeper you look into music, I remember I spent a summer, like I'm really

digging into a Holst First Suite, and it was, it was pretty much every chord of that

Chaconne movement. Um, but I was looking at like, is that everything in there? I

think I feel very solid in my interpretation when I do so first week I feel like have

really deep understanding of that music and I feel confident in my musical choices

as a conductor because of that.

Dr. Pollart provided a more liberal viewpoint on the questions of interpretation and the conductor’s job saying:

So the end result of a piece that a conductor is conducting is no matter whether its

an arrangement or if it’s a composer writing an original composition it should

say, if you are playing a Bach piece it should say Bach whoever the conductor is

because you’re creating your interpretation.

He uses the well-known 6/4 section from Alfred Reed’s Russian Christmas Music as an example explaining, “I don’t do it the same way in that six part. I conduct it in two, instead of in six ‘cause I want it to move along. I’m not sure that Alfred Reed intended it that way, but that’s

46 the way I feel, so it works. If it didn’t work that would be another thing.” A sample of what Dr.

Pollart is referring to can be seen below.

Figure 1:6/4 Section from Alfred Reed's Russian Christmas Music, Clarinet Parts What I found particularly interesting was all the interviewees had a liberal attitude about the treatment of their own music. At least, nobody explicity said they were very strict about the choices other conductors made. Mr. Taurins commented:

I don’t think you have to be a micromanager as a composer, some composers tend

to micromanage, work every little bit of detail they can into their scores. And that

makes it easier to interpret their music. Because so much of what they want is

detailed right on the page. But I tend to do that last and leave more up to the

performer, or conductor.

This quote immediately reminded me of my conversation with Dr. Brust. The more detail the composer puts in the score, the easier it is to interpret. Mr. Taurins is younger than I am; I am now more specific about the detail I put in my scores. I wonder if this was another trend that come with age and experience. However, it seemed the same liberal stance towards interpretation

47 was not just specific to younger composers. Dr. Svanoe said, “I think if I truly want something a certain way, I got to put it on the page and if I don't put it on there, I need to be okay with letting people make those calls.” As noted earlier, Dr. Boysen said he is rarely upset with what people do with his music.Dr. Holsinger said:

I usually tell people you know, when you write a piece of music, it's your child,

you send it out. But you put it in somebody else's hands and whatever you get

back, you've got to be happy with that because you did your job as a composer

and the conductor has a job to do as a conductor. Hopefully you both get on the

same wavelength. Hopefully the composer has written music that is precise

enough that there's freedom but not that much freedom that it won't come back

totally different than what you thought it as going to do.

It seemed across the board, all the composer/conductors place a great deal of trust and confidence in other conductors who perform their music. Perhaps from conducting themselves and going through the process of interpreting other people’s music they understand how much direction, or lack-thereof, they need to put into their own scores to feel comfortable sending it out into the world.

Schuller made an interesting point in his discussion saying, “There can be no such thing as a definitive interpretation, and for many reasons. To begin with, it is impossible for anyone to know all there is to know about a work, that is, to have unequivocally total, objective knowledge of a work and what was felt and heard in its creator’s mind and ear.”5 Interestingly, this quote seems to suggest that the one person that does have the true objective knowledge of the piece is

5 Schuller, The Compleat, 13.

48 indeed the composer. He goes on to say, “Furthermore, the words ‘definitive’ and ‘interpretation’ are self-contradictory, since the word ‘interpretation’ by definition means a particular rendition out of several or many alternatives.”6 This made a lot of sense to me as a composer. For pieces of mine with multiple performances or recordings, there are often certain sections I like best in different recordings of the same piece. Often, no one complete recording of a piece is the best or my favorite.

Dr. Mahr summed it up well saying:

It's a matter of integrity, is what I try to instill within myself and my conducting

students, that you studied the score, you studied about the composer, all the usual

things you read about, you know, score preparation and so on, that you've really

done your homework so that if you're making an artistic decision about the rate of

a ritardando, the length of a fermata, the amount of stylus before going on, you

know, all these small little interpretive ideas.

He seems to believe that no matter how much or how little is in the score, if one studies it well and takes the time to learn about the period, composer, and ideas behind the piece, their intuition will lead them to making the proper decisions. Leinsdorf even says in his book,

“Nevertheless, however well a conductor observes a composer’s stated desires and traditions of his time, there are still areas in which he must fall back upon his own judgement. For this reason, it is essential to understand where interpretation begins and where it ends.”7

Question 9: The Question of Interpretation

6 Schuller, The Compleat, 14. 7 Leinsdorf, The Composer’s, 57.

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I asked the interviewees if hearing another conductor’s interpretation of their piece had ever given them a new take on their own music and likewise if the opposite had ever happened with another composer whose music they had conducted. I used an example from the program notes of “Cajun Folk Songs” by Frank Ticheli. When the composer conducted the piece for an honor band at the Texas Association Convention he noted “During the rehearsal, I noticed the second movement was more effective when performed at about quarter note equals 168 (instead of the published marking of 152-160). Now I believe that a range of

160-168 seems to work best for this movement.” Twelve of the sixteen interviewees specifically remembered at least one particular instance when either of those things had occurred. Dr. Pollart noted that these interpretations often helped him incorporate new things in his next composition or arrangement. Only two, Dr. Boerma and Mr. Leve, said that nothing had ever really changed the way they interpreted their own music. Dr. Boysen brought up a specific example with his piece “Kirkpatrick Fanfare:”

One of the cases, take the last three notes in Kirkpatrick Fanfare, it’s just three

eight notes, their all the same three eights notes, and somebody, I don’t remember

who it was, it was a recording, but I don’t remember who did it, just added a little

fun with the very last one, just a little accent. And when I heard I was like, that’s

cool, that works, it helps define that moment a little more, that very last moment.

The moment he is referring to can be seen in Figure 2, where everyone plays in unison with three eight notes all marked identically with accents. But putting a little more on the last of the three gives the music a little more definition in his mind.

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Figure 2: End of Kirkpactrick Fanfare, Brass Parts

Dr. Boysen continued:

Because you would think a lot the first of the three would be the strongest. But

this actually pushed it through to the end. I certainly didn’t actually even have it

in mind as I wrote the thing, but I actually think it contributes to it, what I want

the piece to do. So now, that is actually what I ask for now when I am doing that

piece.

Dr. Brust recalled an experience with his “Terra Rondo” much like what Frank Ticheli described, where the conductor’s tempo suggestion actually encouraged him to change the marking in his score. “We decided to basically start it slightly earlier so it's not 2-7. And I agreed. He said, "Well we'll play it for you with ... play with the start and see what you think. So we did it, and I said, "That's exactly right. Let's keep it." This is consistent with Mr.

Camphouse’s idea of the dialogue that should occur between composers and conductors and how they are constantly learning from one another.

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In my discussion with Mr. Rose, we reflected back on our experiences hearing our pieces for the first time with real players as opposed to an electronic playback and noted that there are two things that seem to need the most adjustments, balance and tempo. I recalled Dr. Cichy’s comments about knowing exactly what his music is always going to sound like, regardless of whether or not he has heard it performed. Mr. Rose and I, both being relatively young composers, realize we continually adjust things to get them right. This also relates to the idea of practicality and that sometimes the size of the group or size and physicality of the concert venue means making changes. Schuller summed up the idea of tempo adjustments well as he discussed the history of conducting by saying, “In summary, on the subject of tempo fluctuations – a subject so sorely in need of objective consideration – we have heard the thoughts of some of the greatest conductors and composer-conductors, all pointing to the same basic central notion: “Do it, but don’t do it in excess.”8

Mr. Camphouse echoed these sentiments with a story about when Ray Cramer, Director of Bands Emeritus at the University of Indiana conducted his piece “Whatsoever Things.” He told Dr. Cramer, “I have a problem with you. Ray, the problem I have with you is that I’m beginning to like your interpretations of my music more than my own.” Mr. Camphouse explained, “…we composers can learn from other conductors. Boy, what a neat idea, why didn’t

I think of that? We compose the piece but another conductor may do something interpretatively that makes us think, “Hey, I really like that! Why didn’t I think of that? I think I’ll try that.””

One thing I was reminded of during several interviews was that I should have asked the question about how performers might interpret a composer’s music. Mr. Konnerth recalled, “I

8 Schuller, The Compleat, 94.

52 remember some chamber groups in college would say let’s change this line to this just for fun and hearing people play something slightly differently or just adding a new articulation or something like that.” Being able to change an idea on the fly or interpret something differently is very much an improvisational skill. I believe conductors who have strong improvisation skills would be at an advantage on the podium in terms of helping to shape phrases in the moment, try new gestural vocabulary or descriptive comments or coming up with new interpretations and unifying the way an ensemble is interpreting a piece. As Dr. Cichy put it earlier, conducting is like learning another instrument. If you can improvise on a clarinet or trombone, why couldn’t you improvise with your conducting? Not that it is a substitute for careful score study and preparation,but being able to improvise, compose, and think fluidly on the podium would open the door to many more possibilities of how conductors can recreate and elevate a composer’s music.

Dr. Holsinger presented a fascinating interpreation, saying,“Well I would suggest the only challenge is that sometimes what you decide to bring out as a composer, you'll be really surprised sometimes that other conductors will bring out other things.” Then shared that when

Dr. Corporon conducted his piece “American Faces”

He sent me back the tape of the concert and he had brought out totally different

lines than I thought when I wrote it would happen. I mean he kinda turned the

piece inside out and I went well that was ... It was really interesting cause I just

didn't imagine the lines he brought out were important. And he really kinda gave

the piece a whole different color. I've had several conductors do that.

The same situation applied to experiences he had conducting other composer’s music saying:

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I've had guys come to me and say, 'Oh I thought I knew that piece until you did it.'

I just brought out different lines than they thought. Again, that conductor brought

out lines he thought were the prominent lines that made sense to him. Then when I

did it, he heard me do it with a group, oh, I hadn't even thought about that. So I

think it happens both ways.

This brought me back to the discussion about being able to conduct another person’s piece as if it were your own. As Dr. Boerma put it, he knew what it was like to be the composer who put all the painstaking details in. Well, the beauty of interpretation is there are other details that another person may come along and bring out instead of the ones the composer envisioned . Dr.

Svanoe had a great example dealing with Holst’s “First Suite in Eb,” the piece which she recalled spending an entire summer going through chord by chord. The “First Suite in Eb” is a piece that many band directors and musicians have heard hundredsof times! Therefore, it would stand to reason that for many of us who have heard the piece so many times may not be focusing so much on the music anymore, but on how the group was playing it, or in Dr.

Holsinger’s case, maybe evaluating the conductor. Dr. Svanoe told me about an experience conducting the piece saying:

I did however have two band directors that came up to me, I had conducted the Holst

First Suite and I had these directors come up to me and say they heard things they

hadn’t noticed before in the Holst because of choices I had made.” I thought it was quite

amazing to think about hearing a piece they had heard so many times before, so many

different ways, with so many groups, and hear it an entirely new way.

Dr. Mahr summed it up:

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I've changed the way I interpret my own music as a conductor based on what I've

heard other conductors do with it. And that's the magic of the music, and the

magic of the interpretation. They perceive a musical potential for a moment in the

score that went beyond what my initial conception was for that moment.

His example came from the final measures of his piece “Fantasia in G” explaining,“Somebody did it where they had the trumpets hold through and they put more time before the last chord, or the percussion came back and just made a little bit more of a dramatic ending of it. And I thought, oh god, why didn't I think of that? You know?” The moment Dr.

Mahr is referring to can be seen below.

Figure 3: End of Fantasia in G, Brass and Percussion

Question 10: Compositional Choices – Meter, Balance, Range, Technical Prowess

When asked whether their experience conducting had any influence on how the interviewees handled range, technical prowess, balance and blend, and metrical groupings in their music, the answers were unanimous. All 16 relayed an experience when their knowledge of

55 instruments helped them make their music more playable and more approachable to interested conductors and ensembles. Mr. Buckley frankly admitted he has made “far fewer stupid mistakes in writing because of all the years I've spent on the podium fixing other people's mistakes, you know. But that's the way that my, uh, conducting informs composing.” Everyone’s responses addressed the need to be – “practical.” As Dr. Boysen put it, “I think there is the practical side of having taught for a long time and about knowing what could be difficult, I’ve certainly made my mistakes compositionally too, like oh, don’t do that ever again, and I’ll see them making the same mistake I made.” Interviewees shared the different strategies they use to help guide them and think through the process. Mr. Rose noted working through a couple section with lots of mixed meters by actually writing each passage and then conducting it to get a sense of how it felt.

Composing your own music is in reality a theoretical concept until you put it into practice. The best, and I would argue only, way to truly learn and grow, is to work with the performers who will play your music. The composer who conducts has an opportunity to work with performers, realize what works and what does not work, and what they like and do not like.

As Mr. Camphouse put it, “Well, it’s an important interrelationship. When one composes, what they are ultimately doing is studying the score of a piece they like…. So what we listen to has a very deep impact on what kind of musician we are. It’s an important thing.”

At least four interviewee’s explicitally said they learned to compose by not only reading the books, but also by studying other composers’ scores. As Dr. Pollart noted earlier, he likes looking at different combinations of instruments to get interesting timbres he enjoys hearing. As a conductor, one has the opportunity to program a large variety of music and

56 maximize their potential toolbox of compositional techniques based on what they find interesting and effective.

In her own dissertation, in which she compared the orchestral version of Copland’s “El

Salon Mexico” with two different band transcription, Dr. Svanoe discussed how Copland actually rebarred the piece saying, “He discusses the practicality of rewriting rhythms to more simple meters, in particular for conductors and orchestras.”9

Ms. Bove noted how her knowledge of scores and notation has helped her work through various challenges with sections of her arrangement of “Partita for 8 Voices.” Some sections of the piece are aleatoric and scored for about four voices. Splitting a four-voice aleatoric section among many instrumentalists in a symphonic band would be tricky when it came to getting the same effect but keeping the precision of only having four performers. She had to decide when it was necessary to transcribe the rhythm out for the performers. Additionally, at the beginning of the second movement, the singers start by humming and then transition into an open mouth chord, creating a unique effect. Ms. Bove had to rely on her working knowledge of the instruments to recreate the timbre and aesthetic she wanted. At the time of the interview, she was using a combination of bowed vibraphone, clarinets, and a hit that would be immediately pedaled.

This is another place where I should have also asked about being a performer. Many interviewees said that their experience performing came in handy just as much as their conducting did when making compositional choices. Mr. Konnerth noted how he tries to avoid double sharps and double flats when possible as he knows how often even an experienced player

9 Ericka K. Svanoe, “El Salon Mexico by : A Study and Comparison of the Orchestral Score and Two Transcriptions for Band” (DMA diss., The Ohio State University, 2009).

57 can find them difficult, let alone student musicians. Mr. Mahr and Dr. Cichy both brought up the point that composers should be taking methods classes during their undergradate work to get a general sense of many of the instruments that they write for. Dr. Mahr said:

There's some things that needs to happen. I think my biggest advantage was, even

though it wasn't required as a composition major, I loved taking the methods

classes ‘cause you just got to play the instruments, you got to, just kind of get a

sense of it. Hopefully that's required for any comp degree in this country. They've

gotta get their hands dirty trying to play these instruments.

Dr. Cichy discussed three things that he attributes to his success as a composer: discussed

“One of them is my degrees are in music education.” He went on to describe how going through all the methods and education classes helped better prepare him for being able to write for bands.

He went on to say that perhaps quite a number of undergraduate composition programs were not teaching enough. There is a lot of theory, a lot of history, but not enough of the practical. Young composers are not forced to learn the basics of what they are writing for. Dr. Cichy went on to say “What's missing is that opportunity, you know, and same thing with conducting I think should be important because you know, you could have written the greatest piece and if you put it in front of an ensemble, they have to direct them.” Dr. Cichy’s philosophy is consistent with

Mr. Camphouse’s, who noted, “we compartmentalize too much.” Being a composer/conductor or composer/conductor/performer simply makes one a more complete musician and for a composer, allows one to be involved in all aspects of the creation and rehearsal of their music.

Question 11: Composition Lessons

Everyone concurred that having the practical experience as a composer greatly helps when giving composition lessons. Mr. Camphouse explained:

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Sure, stands to reason, because I think when we study other composers’ scores we

can learn a lot and get to the heart of the matter a lot quicker and I think we are

trained to know what to look for and what to find particularly with some student

compositions that tend to be more streamlined and less complex.

From years of score study, and preparing scores to conduct, Mr. Camphouse is essentially able to dissect a student work in the as if he was studying the score and make a quick assessment about how best to advise the student. Dr. Holsinger said, “I'm just always aware of things and sometimes they [the students] will not realize what's really happening in composition. I'll say, okay you know ... We do go back and I tell a little theory.”

Several interviewees attested to “saving” students from putting unplayable parts in front of their performers noting that problems often come from balance, unplayable tempi, and most of all, range. Dr. Holsinger explained:

Basically when the composition student tries to write to a score and immediately

gets totally out of range ... That's why I always say, “don't do that, write me music

first, then we'll score it.” I discovered of my young composition students who

come just to college for the first time, they think too big. So I have to get them to

pair down and start thinking about the craft of composition.

For Dr. Holsinger, the idea of thinking practically doesn’t just seem to be about making sure your music is playable but about being able to step back and focus on the compositional skills before worrying about many of the other factors. He recalls several first semester

59 undergraduate students wanting to write a symphony and having to remind them to master a four bar phrase before embarking on writing an elaborate composition.

Mr. Rose, who does not give formal composition lessons, surmised:

I might look at me looking at a piece compositionally, um, I'm going to

automatically without even trying to be thinking about how to conduct that. Not

only just metrics and things, but thinking, well, okay, if I'm doing this at, where

would I stretch, where would I not stretch all the interpretive aspects of the music

that aren't necessarily written on the page.

The composition teacher who conducts is in a position to give technical insights and provide first-hand interpretive and emotional insights about how to handle a student’s music and provide the student with insight into elements to include and/or address in the score if they want to encourage or even avoid a certain interpretive choice during performance.

Another trend that several people talked about was being able to give insight on the notation as well as the music itself. As Dr. Brust put it, “The overall approach with me would be is make the score very clear to what you want. So there aren't a whole lot of questions that the conductor will need to ask.” How the music looks is also important. Is it easy to read, does it looks like care has been put into preparing the parts? As Dr. Mahr explains, “Primarily, getting at the level of sophistication they use with their notations. Is it clear? Can you hand this to me as the conductor and not talk to me again? Have no contact with me and have this come back to you sounding the way you think it's supposed to sound?” I was reminded again of the one-note exercise as part of his workshop. And that was just one note. Thirty conductors would easily

60 interpret the same piece thirty different ways. This highlights the inefficiency and missing pieces in our current notation system. Therefore, the composition teacher who conducts can give their students insight into how what they have written on the page will be seen and what questions the conductor may inevitably have when studying their score. This in turn will allow students to better anticipate and get a feel for how much instruction they need to put in their scores or adjustments they need to make to ensure what they are hearing in their head is what they will hear in the concert hall. As Dr. Cichy said, he has reached the point where he knows exactly what his music will sound like. Over time, composition students need to trust their instincts, adjustment their dynamics, and articulations, and not rely solely on MIDI recordings to hear what they want.

I believe composers learn and grow through practical experience. There is a big difference between a composition professor saying, “the brass will easily overpower the rest of the ensemble in this section” as opposed to hearing your piece being played and realizing the roar of the drowns out the strings or woodwinds. The composition teacher who conducts and perhaps conducts an ensemble or knows players that would willingly participate in readings or performances is in a position to give their students invaluable opportunities to have that practical experience and gain insight from their experience and even their mistakes.

Additionally, they are in a position to give their student conducting advice as well (if the student is not also taking formal conducting lessons) so that they feel comfortable getting up on the podium and leading a rehearsal or performance of their own work, which as several interviewees have pointed out, is an important skill that composers must learn and something that can make a huge difference in their career.

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Question 12: Joys and Challenges of Conducting your own Music

Dr. Boysen and Dr. Cichy loved the fact that by conducting their own music, they knew they could get it just the way they wanted it, the way they first heard it in their heads. Others loved the freedom of knowing the music so well they never needed to rely on looking at the score and could focus their attention on making a connection with the performers. Dr. Holsiger and Dr. Boerma commented on that when they conduct their own music, they don’t need to learn it (a nod to practicality). And Dr. Svanoe mentioned that there was a certain freedom to doing your own piece saying, “If you screw it up, you know, it’s just me.” As many people mentioned, they put a lot more time into preparing other people’s music, noting, as Mr. Camphouse felt like he, “owed it to the other composer.” With your own music, not hitting an exact tempo or not doing something exactly like it says in the score feels a little less like a mistake and more like a spontaneous revision. Dr. Brust and Mr. Rose mentioned that during rehearsals they will sometimes change a tempo either knowingly or even unknowingly based on how they are hearing and feeling the music. As Dr. Boyson said, with someone else’s piece, ignoring the marking is not a matter of feeling it fast or slower, it’s simply the wrong tempo. But with your own music, you can take more artistic license.

The most notable answer was the ability to be able to speak directly to the group about the piece. As Dr. Boerma put it:

It gives me the opportunity to just speak, not to just speak as the conductor, the

director, but I can also talk about the different ideas and why or what it was what

inspired me to write this moment or this moment comes from this or I did this

because I like how this core shifts from the piano kind of demonstrate those

things.

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As I had discussed with Dr. Boerma, working with a composer is an experience that everyone should have, and he pointed out that the experience is different every time. It is a totally new experience for a performer or a student to play a piece after hearing the composer talk about it and getting the ‘inside scoop’ on why what they are playing is the way it is. Mr.

Rose mentioned letting the group visualize the music saying, “I can really give them a mental picture of what I'm trying to do.” I talked with several interviewees at length about their compositional process. Some have a particular scene in mind as they compose, like a ‘movie playing in our head.’ To share that with performers can help translate what is on the page into what you want everyone to hear and experience.

Mr. Konnerth expanded on this point saying, “I think it's a good chance to communicate to a group of people in terms what I did and uh, you know, what values you have, not just both musically and non-musically.” Mr. Konnerth referenced this in my composition “American

Dreams” which I wrote about my experience meeting and working with Senator Ted Kennedy.

Mr. Konnerth played with the University of Rhode Island Symphonic Wind Ensemble, which premiered the piece, and share, which Mr. Konnerth played in at the time. He noted “That was one of the first personal connections you made when I knew you.”

Then of course there was the sheer joy and excitement that comes from the

experience of having your own music sound back at you.

“It's a good feeling, it's a good feeling inside. It's something you've done, it's like

you're giving birth to something. It's like this is your baby there. Excitement you

felt writing to when you get to conduct it, it's just kinda part of it. Actually I

almost feel bad for composers who don't conduct. I think they get a thrill but they

don't get half the thrill they can get to conduct it.” – Dr. Holsinger

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“It's a visceral, a physical response to the sheer exhilaration of the moment.

Whether it's ... an exciting quick waltz or fanfare-ish music, or if it's quiet tender

stuff. You've created this expression. It's not that you aren't totally turning off

your conductor's ear. I mean you're the one in charge of making it all happen.

And so you're on the box as the conductor. But it feels fantastic also being the

composer.” – Dr. Mahr

“The best I have ever felt is when I am conducting my own music that is when I’m

at the peak of existence in my opinion.” – Mr. Leve

Several people pointed out that composing is a solitary activity. Dr. Boerma even admitted that sometimes, it can be boring. It is when you get into the rehearsal with your colleagues and get to work on the music together that the labor starts to pay off. These were all ideas that I easily related to in my own experience. For me, the first time I had the chance to get up in front of my high school band and conduct, I knew this was what I wanted to do each day for the rest of my life. I feel this emotional joy every time I get to conduct my own music or even sit in a on a rehearsal of a new piece. It is a magical feeling that I look forward.

There are challenges to conducting your own music. . The interviewees said it can be difficult to find a balance between composing and conducting and removing themselves from the piece. It can also be hard to separate what we hear in our heads versus what the group really sounds like. As Dr. Holsinger explained:

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Composers have to be really careful as a conductor, not to hear things in his head

that aren't being played. So I've had to really learn to listen even to my own

music, to make sure that I'm not ... Cause a lot of times you hear stuff in your

head and it's really not getting played in front of you.

Mr. Konnerth concurred saying:,

One challenge is to make sure that you are listening to what the group does and

not to what you hear in your head because you already have such a good idea

about how the piece should sound, you want to make sure that you're looking at

what’s coming out and not at what is just sound so you can get accurate feedback.

While a lot of people mentioned that they loved the freedom of being able to play with the details of their own music in rehearsal and not fret over mistakes as they would with the music of another composer, a two also said they tend to be disappointed when things do not go well. Dr. Boerma who is “always chasing that perfect performance,” said it is easy to understand that not quite getting there can leave the composer feeling like they had fallen short.

Question 13: The Influence of Composing on Conducting and of Conducting on Composing

Mr. Leve mentioned how being a conductor was very beneficial to his ear training, saying

“Being a conductor has greatly improved my ear, which was invaluable because I could hear in my head real quickly.” During our time together at The Longy School of Music, the conducting class that Mr. Leve and I were enrolled in stressed general musicianship skills such as ear training, sight , and clef reading. This allowed us to easily have command of the score while on the podium, particularly when it came to listening for accuracy and knowing the

65 harmonic structure of what we were conducting. As a composer, Mr. Leve is able to use this training and knowledge to easily transfer what he is hearing and thinking about in his head directly onto the page.

Mr. Camphouse noted how conducting teaches leadership, explaining:

And they’re important opportunities. It’s part of developing leadership. As a

conductor, and as a teacher its leadership is very important. I can remember

conducting some early pieces of mine that I wrote for brass ensemble that were

very, very important moments in development.

Finally, Ms. Bove expanded on about the importance of getting to know the composer whose piece you are conducting. Upon first arriving at the University of Kentucky, she learned that John Barnes Chance taught there until his untimely in 1972. Having played so much of his music throughout her high school and college career, Ms. Bove took an interested in researching him and talking to other faculty who knew him. Ms. Bove commented about the experience:

I look at his pieces now when I like see the person where I've never met him

before and, but I feel like I've gotten this connection from just wanting to study

him and learn about his life and now I know him as a person better. I feel like

that's going to influence how I interpret his music and like my respect and

reverence for his music. And I don't think I would've done that had I not really

had such a fascination and connection to composition already.

Every interviewee agreed that their composing and conducting greatly informed

one another and worked together to make them a more well-rounded musician.

“I think I probably got better as a composer, as I started conducting a lot more.

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The reason I started conducting a lot more was because I started teaching. The more I started thinking about all these things regularly, the more it effected my writing.” – Dr. Boysen

“I think, uh, the more mature I become as a musician, the more I keep all aspects of musicianship informing each other. But my performance helped me understand other aspects of music and I think that includes conducting and composing. I think the older I get, the more I perform, the more I compose, the more I conduct, the more they all strengthen each other.” – Mr. Taurins

“I guess I see them as being beautifully in a symbiotic relationship with one another. That ... each informs the other. Each drives the other, helps the other.

And that ... because ... I'm fortunate enough and you and the others who are doing this, to have had chances to write music and also be the conductor, that we have the ability to perhaps make something pretty special happen. Not only with our own music, but with the other works that we conduct.” – Dr. Mahr

“I think the two are inextricably linked. The composer inspires the conductor.

The Conductor gives unique insights to the piece from which the composer benefits. It’s all connected. Good performers get into the mind of the composer.

Good conductors, good players, good singers – it’s all about the composer. And again, the other example when I’m on the podium I’m thinking like a composer.

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When I’m composing a piece, I’m thinking like the conductor and the performer.

It’s all connected. There’s too much compartmentalization in our profession, especially in higher education. Too much emphasis on specialization. We are musicians. And I don’t like to refer to myself as a composer or a conductor or an educator. I am a musician, I’m all of those things and it’s called being a musician. And, it’s a very noble calling.” – Mr. Camphouse

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Score Study Data: Results of Practical Application

Once they had switched scores with a colleague, the conductors prepared their own socres and that of their colleague for a short rehearsal with a live group. During the process, they were asked to fill out a short survey with some questions about their approach. The survey results appear in the tables below.

“Was there a discernable difference in the way you studied your own score or your colleague’s? (Yes/No) If yes, please note specific differences.”

Table 1: Score Study, Difference of Method

Conductor Yes No A X B X C X D X E X F X Total 4 2

Comments

Conductor A: “Yes, mostly because my score contained much more articulations and tempo/style markings.” Conductor B: No Comments Conductor C: “Yes, but only slightly. The only difference in approach between my piece and the other piece is that I felt more comfortable modifying tempi in my own work to what I thought sounded better, whereas the other one I felt a need to practice it at the tempo designated by the composer.” Conductor D: “When looking at my own score, I was already familiar with the sound world of the piece. This enabled me to approach the music more profoundly as I knew what materials were present and how they were utilized. In looking at my colleague’s score, I spent much more time attempting to discern the structure and flow of the piece rather than beginning to make interpretive decisions.”

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Conductor E: “I feel as though I actually spent more time on my colleague’s piece because I did not know anything about it until I received it. I spend time looking at the form, style and such and particularly predicting the potential things I would need to work on during the rehearsal.” Conductor F: “While looking at the score there was no difference but it should be noted that I could conduct my piece from memory, but not my colleague’s.”

“It was presumably easier to audiate your own score. Did this difference affect the way you thought about the balance of the two different pieces? (Yes/No) If yes, specifically how?”

Table 2: Score Study, Audiation

Conductor Yes No A X B X C X D X E X F X Total 3 3

Comments

Conductor A: No Comments Conductor B: “Yes, this difference made an impact on how I initially perceived the score and the subsequent reading preparation. For my own composition I knew exactly how I wanted each part to fit in and at what level they should be placed. However, the piece I studied utilized starkly contrasting dynamic ranges and fluctuations, meaning that balance was difficult to understand at first without prior knowledge. This meant that much more time was needed to be spent on considering how to approach conducting motions and the overall arching dynamic landscape.” Conductor C: No Comments Conductor D: “In my own piece I knew what the balance would be from its conception, whereas in the other piece I had to analyze the dynamic markings and register choices to determine possible balance issues.” Conductor E: “Honestly, not really – I had written and conducting so much music for brass and band, I was able to audiate both scores fairly easily and know exactly how things would work out balance wise. This was particularly prevalent with the immense amount of in my piece, and something I often thought about while writing it, making sure that things would be able to project out.”

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Conductor F: “It’s easier to make adjustments if one as a clear mental map of what the piece should sound like. In my score I tried to mark the line’s dynamics based on importance but my colleague used block dynamics. I think that’s what they were going for, but I’m not sure which voice he wanted to be most prominent. There’s a lot of parallel movement, and I just don’t know what he wanted…I’m assuming it should be harmonic, with the lower voice dominating.” “Did you find it easier to anticipate specific rehearsal problems in your own piece? (Yes/No) If yes, please note specific differences.”

Table 3: Score Study, Rehearsal Problems

Conductor Yes No A X B X C X D X E X F X Total 2 4

Comments

Conductor A: No Comments Conductor B: No Comments Conductor C: “Yes; my piece is largely devoid of a discernable pulse, so I am anticipating that that will possibly lead to some rehearsal problems, whereas with the other composition the problems I am anticipating are more so dependent on my own conducting ability.” Conductor D: “When I write a piece of music, most of the time I am able to foresee rehearsal problems. This leads me to minimize the problems through different composition choices. Due to this, I already know how many issues I’ll run into. Looking at a score by a different composer for the first time, I have no idea how many rehearsal problems will need to be addressed.” Conductor E: “Again, not really. Like my answer to the previous question, I felt pretty good about knowing what I should address in the upcoming rehearsal. My conducting experience seemed to guide me pretty well as far as planning what I am going to address. Granted – I did have to spend more time looking for the problems in my colleague’s piece because I got the ideas for my own during the writing process.” Conductor F: “No, I didn’t find it any easier. In fact, I feel a little blind to what might happen in my own piece. I feel like I look at my colleague’s piece much more vertically than my own, so I’m prepared for anything that doesn’t line up. When I look at my score, I see it more horizontally, and I don’t seem to be as concerned about time.”

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“When composing your own piece, did you consider specific rehearsal problems as part of your composition process? (Yes/No) If yes, please note specific differences.”

Table 4: Score Study, Anticipating Problems While Composing

Conductor Yes No A X B X C X D X E X F X Total 5 1

Comments

Conductor A: “Only slightly. I considered some different approaches to articulations. I also considered the a challenge for the conductor to communicate effectively. Conductor B: “Yes, I intended to create a simple piece without too many complexities that would inhibit its performance/interpretation. For this reason, I chose 4/4 time and a majority of the entrances are nicely situated on the beat. A minor exception to this are the triplet figures. I also wrote all accidentals out/tried to be explicit and did not utilize a key in order to avoid possible rehearsal pitfalls.” Conductor C: No Comments Conductor D: Very much so. I always keep the practical and technical ability of the performers in mind so that I don’t write music that is unnecessarily difficult to play. These compositional choices guide the course of the piece, which fortifies the notion that being a performer has a profound impact on the music you write. Due to this, being a performer (or conductor) blend together so that the skills procured in both fields compliment and inform one another.” Conductor E: “Of course – I always do. Having done a plethora of writing for brass, I have a very good working understanding of how these instruments work so I knew when I was writing something that would require attention in rehearsal. I knew I was working with very good players, but also would have very limited time, so I set out to write something that they could easily grab on to and would come together rather quickly. Everything that was hard, also had to “make sense” after a read through or two.”

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Conductor F: “I did consider how the performers would read the music. I tried to write the lines to feel natural in terms of shape and mark where the breaths could be taken, and shouldn’t be. I also tried to mark my dynamics based on balance, not overall texture. I tried to write the least amount of markings I could, so the performance can take liberties.”

Score Study Discussion

The results from the score study surveys were inconclusive. While I hoped to find trends in the difference in thought process between preparing your own score versus that of another composer, it was clear that all but two of the condcutors were focusing more on the basics of how to conduct. However, some of the conductors’ comments were consistent with I learned during the interviews. For example, when asked if they studied their own score differently than that of their colleagues, Conductor C noted “I felt more comfortable modifying tempi in my own work to what I thought sounded better, whereas [for] the other one I felt a need to practice it at the tempo designated by the composer.” During the interviews several people had mentioned a certain freedom to conducting their own music, with a few stating they had changed a tempo in rehearsal if they felt it worked for the piece. The comment also shows a stricter adherence to what was written on the page, closer to Dr. Boysen’s philosophy on artistic license than the more lenient approach of Dr. Pollart. Conductor E also explained “I feel as though I actually spent more time on my colleague’s piece because I did not know anything about it until I received it.” I spend time looking at the form, style, and such and particularly predicting the potential things I would need to work on during the rehearsal.” As discovered during the interviews, twelve of the sixteen composer/conductors admitted they do not really study their own scores.

On the question of audiation, two conductors noted how they knew exactly how parts of their music would turn out before they even started rehearsing it. In particular, Conductor D

73 explained “In my own piece I knew what the balance would be from its conception.” This is similar to Dr. Cichy noting that he always knows exactly how his own music is going to sound.

When it came to anticipating problems in rehearsal, a few comments revealed the overall problems with this study. Conductor C noted that “the problems I am anticipating are more so dependent on my conducting ability.” Of the six participants in the practicum only two had significant conducting experience, one was currently in a conducting class and the other three had either conducted or taken the classes at some point but not in recent years.

The only question on the survey that provided a significant result was that 5 of the 6 the conductors said they did indeed consider the rehearsal challenges when composing their piece.

Several times, Conductor E mentioned how their knowledge of brass and writing for brass greatly helped with the exercise, saying, “I have a very good working understand of how these instruments work so I knew when I was writing something that would require attention in rehearsal.” During the interviews, everyone unanimously agreed that having experience working with and playing the instruments was a distinct advantage in their composing. Likewise,

Conductor F mentioned the considerations of the players breathing, thinking about the balance of the ensemble saying “I tried to write the lines to feel natural in terms of shape and mark where the breaths could be taken, and shouldn’t be. I also tried to mark my dynamics based on balance, not, not overall texture.”

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Ensemble Evaluation Data

During the practicum, the five members of the quintet were given six evaluation forms – one for each conductor. Immediately after each conductor finished, the ensemble players took notes about what they had just observed. The results are summarized below. Note that all personal pronouns in the comments were changed to “they” or “their” to avoid revealing the gender of the conductor. The results or presented in tables below.

“During which rehearsal/performance did the conductor’s gestural vocabulary give you a better idea of how to express the music? Please reference any specific gestures you found particularly effective/ineffective.”

Table 5: Ensemble Evaluation, Gestural Vocabulary, Condcutor A

Player Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C X D X E X Total 5 0

Comments

Player A: “Conductor gestured when ritards needed to occur and when, which was effective because of the points. Conductor also showed great gestures dynamically, letting us know when to be louder or softer, accordingly.” Player B: “Very easy to follow cues and tempo changes.” Player C: “The presence of fermatas necessitated more gradual indicators from the conductor.” Player D: “I feel that the dynamics and specificity gave good direction and the conductor was able to work with this. He showed rise and fall of dynamics very clearly.” Player E: “I felt piece 1 [conductor’s piece] felt more natural for the conductor to conduct and give gestures.”

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Table 6: Ensemble Evaluation, Gestural Vocabulary, Condcutor B

Player Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C X D X E X Total 3 2

Comments

Player A: “I better understood what the conductor wanted in the first piece based on how he expressed what he was looking for.” Player B: “During the first rehearsal [conductor’s piece], the conductor’s pattern often shrunk so that the beats were difficult to read. This happened less often with piece 2 [colleague’s piece].” Player C: “Some of the crescendo/diminuendo gestures in Piece 2 [colleague’s piece] were ineffective.” Player D: “I felt like he warmed up a little more for piece 2 [colleague’s piece].” Player E: “I believe Piece 1 [conductor’s piece was given with more shape.”

Table 7: Ensemble Evaluation, Gestural Vocabulary, Condcutor C

Player Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C X D X E X Total 3 2

Comments

Player A: “In the second piece [conductor’s piece], the conductor didn’t give a lot of descriptive gestures showing what he wanted. In the first piece [colleague’s piece], he had a better grasp of what he wanted from the ensemble.” Player B: “The conductor gave several helpful cutoffs” Player C: “I found the cues and some of the more articulate gestures easier to interpret.”

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Player D: “Stronger show of direction and rise and fall.” Player E: “Gave more relevant comments.”

Table 8: Ensemble Evaluation, Gestural Vocabulary, Conductor D

Player Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C X D X E X Total 2 3

Comments

Player A: “He knew exactly what he wanted from the ensemble articulation and sound wise and expressed that clearly.” Player B: “There were more gestures indicating shape and dynamic contrasts.” Player C: “There was more contrast in the gestures in piece 1 which helped show the differing styles.” Player D: “Really symbolized the dynamic motion that he wanted.” Player E: “Gave more unwritten insight.”

Table 9: Ensemble Evaluation, Gestural Vocabulary, Condcutor E

Player Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C X D X E X Total 5 0

Comments

Player A: “Used a lot more descriptive wording and was more sure of what they wanted from the ensemble.” Player B: “The conductor’s gestured seemed to better maintain the style they were asking for in piece 2 [conductor’s piece].”

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Player C: “Emphasis on the articulations made it more clear as to how to play these articulations.” Player D: “Lots of good comments and strong energetic gestures.” Player E: “Effective cues and phrasing.”

Table 10: Ensemble Evaluation, Gestural Vocabulary, Condcutor F

Player Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C X D X E X Total 2 3

Comments

Player A: “Their conducting was very emotional and purposeful, which helped the ensemble to play as such.” Player B: “While I felt the conductor gave helpful gestures in both pieces. The gestures were very clear including in-the-moment non-verbal cues to get more of what he wanted. Player C: “The gestures in Piece 1 [colleague’s piece] were more effective in giving me a better idea of how to interpret the music.” Player D: “Nice strong and definitive gestures.” Player E: “Clear differences in style/articulation.”

Combining the results of all five players looking at each of the six conductors, the players thought the gestural vocabulary was better on the conductor’s own piece 20 out of 30 times while they thought the gestural vocabulary was better on the colleague’s piece only 10 out of 30 times.

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“During which rehearsal/performance did the conductor’s rehearsal comments more efficiently improve your and the ensemble’s performance? Please reference any comments you found particularly effective/ineffective?”

Table 11: Ensemble Evaluation, Rehearsal Comments, Condcutor A

Player Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C X D X E X Total 0 5

Comments

Player A: “The second piece had no articulations or dynamics, so any comments made by the conductor made our performance much better. We actually had rules to follow!” Player B: “2 Bar Phrasing, pointing out who to listen for, articulation comments.” Player C: “The conductor had more thorough comments in terms of the phrasing ideas, singing lines, netter illustrated how the interpret/play them.” Player D: “There was definitely more improvement on this piece due to the lack of specifics on the first read. Phrasing ideas and alerting us to other parts of the piece helped.” Player E: “I believe that piece 2 [colleague’s piece] was associated with more efficient comments.”

Table 12: Ensemble Evaluation, Rehearsal Comments, Conductor B

Player Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C X D X E X Total 3 2

Comments

Player A: “The first piece [conductor’s piece] was better interpreted by the ensemble and the conductor because it was overall more straight forward.”

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Player B: “The conductor did not seem to have much to say about either piece, but he seemed more confident in his comments on piece 2 [colleague’s piece].” Player C: “There were more stylistic elements to address in piece 1 [conductor’s piece] and describing them beforehand helped establish better ensemble interpretation.” Player D: “I think his comments were a bit more helpful with putting things in the right place.” Player E: “Piece 1 [conductor’s piece] seemed to come with more elegant commentary.”

Table 13: Ensemble Evaluation, Rehearsal Comments, Condcutor C

Player Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C X D X E X Total 3 2

Comments

Player A: “They did well showing/explaining the ritard at the end whereas in the second piece [conductor’s piece] they didn’t have any suggestions other than ‘let’s try again’.” Player B: “The conductor explained a little bit about the second piece [conductor’s piece]. He only made one comment about the first piece having to do with the pacing of the riatardando.” Player C: “Knowing that the crescendos were an important compositional aspect of the piece helped interpret them with more signifance.” Player D: “Spent more time on altering and clarifying.” Player E: “More insight to dynamics and shaping.”

Table 14: Ensemble Evaluation, Rehearsal Comments, Condcutor D

Player Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B* X X C X D X E X Total 2 2 (1 Indecision.) *Player B circled both choices.

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Comments

Player A: “They were very passionate about improving rehearsal methods in the performance of the first piece [conductor’s piece].” Player B: “The conductor mostly shared the same amount of information about each piece both before we started and after the first run through. The type of information was the same as well.” Player C: “Knowing the piece was a fanfare really helped interpret the style.” Player D: “Gave good background.” Player E: No Comments.

Table 15: Ensemble Evaluation, Rehearsal Comments, Conductor E

Player Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B* X X C X D X E X Total 4 0 (1 Indecision.) *Player B circled both choices.

Comments

Player A: “He better used his words and conducting to show how to improve.” Player B: “I found the conductor’s comments to be helpful during both pieces. I liked how he pointed out the triplets passed back and forth in the second piece [conductor’s piece] and sung the passage to indicate the style in the first piece [colleague’s piece].” Player C: “Knowing who had the melody at certain places allowed the group to adjust accordingly.” Player D: “Cleaned many things up in a short time.” Player E: “Melody vs. harmony, distinction/performance.”

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Table 16: Ensemble Evaluation, Rehearsal Comments, Condcutor F

Player Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B* X X C X D X E X Total 2 2 (1 Indecision.) *Player B circled both choices.

Comments

Player A: “They gave very effective comments to improve, despite thinking that we already sounded good.” Player B: “The conductor had great information that was clearly communicated and very helpful in terms of interpretation and performance.” Player C: “The comments seemed more thought out and pre-determined for piece 1 [colleague’s piece]”. Player D: “More insight into melody/phrasing.” Player E: “Cleared articulations and lined up group.”

Combining the observations of all five players, the players thought the comments were better on the conductor’s own piece 14 out of 30 times, better on the colleague’s piece 13 out of

30 times, and found no discernable difference 3 out of 30 times.

“Did you notice any substantial difference in eye contact with the ensemble when the conductor was rehearsing one piece or the other? If so, please indicate.”

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Table 17: Ensemble Evaluation, Eye Contact, Conductor A

Player Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece No Discernable Difference A X B X C X D X E X Total 0 0 5

Table 18: Ensemble Evaluation, Eye Contact, Conductor B

Player Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece No Discernable Difference A X B X C X D X E* X Total 1 2 2 *Player E noted “Seemed to be more confident/knowledgeable.”

Table 19: Ensemble Evaluation, Eye Contact, Conductor C

Player Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece No Discernable Difference A X B X C X D X E X Total 3 0 2

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Table 20: Ensemble Evaluation, Eye Contact, Conductor D

Player Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece No Discernable Difference A X B X C X D X E X Total 0 1 4

Table 21: Ensemble Evaluation, Eye Contact, Condcutor E

Player Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece No Discernable Difference A X B X C X D X E X Total 0 0 5

Table 22: Ensemble Evaluation, Eye Contact, Conductor F

Player Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece No Discernable Difference A X B X C X D X E X Total 1 1 3

Combining the results of all five players looking at each of the six conductors, the players thought the eye contact was better on the conductor’s own piece 5 out of 30 times, better on the

84 colleague’s piece 4 out of 30 times, and found no discernable difference 21 out of 30 times.

“During which rehearsal/performance did you feel the conductor had a better or more confident presence interaction with you on the podium? Please reference anything in particular you felt was different between the two pieces.”

Table 23: Ensemble Evaluation, Confidence, Conductor A

Player Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C X D X E X Total 2 3

Comments

Player A: “Less ritardandos and more straight forward. Easier for conductor and lead to increased confidence.” Player B: “There were more directions with an assertive ‘do this here’ character compared to the first piece [conductor’s piece] when the comments were of more ‘Id like to do this’ character.” Player C: “The conductor seemed to have a better idea of the desired results and how to achieve them.” Player: D “Piece two [colleague’s piece] didn’t give much direction, which impacted confidence.” Player E: “I felt as if the conductor was more confident/comfortable conducting piece 1 [conductor’s piece].”

Table 24: Ensemble Evaluation, Confidence, Conductor B

Player Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C X D X E X Total 3 2

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Comments

Player A: “The second piece [colleague’s piece] felt strange. The conductor seemed uncomfortable and seemed like they weren’t sure how to express what they wanted.” Player B: “Appeared to have more comments/things they specifically wanted to hear on piece 2 [colleague’s piece].” Player C: “There was some confusion in piece two [colleague’s piece] about how to interpret the crescendo/diminuendo figures.” Player D: “He had gotten his bearings.” Player E: “The second piece [colleague’s piece] didn’t seem to have any specific comments compared to the first [conductor’s piece].”

Table 25: Ensemble Evaluation, Confidence, Conductor C

Player Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C X D X E X Total 5 0

Comments

Player A: “They seemed more confident during the second piece [conductor’s piece], but didn’t have as constructive comments or feedback.” Player B: “The conductor did not do much more with piece 1 [colleague’s piece] then run it. He had more to say about piece 2 [conductor’s piece].” Player C: “The conductor seemed to understand piece 2 [conductor’s piece] better, making it easier to conduct.” Player D: “Felt like he knew the piece and had a plan.” Player E: “Seemed more knowledgable/confident, more eye contact.”

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Table 26: Ensemble Evaluation, Confidence, Conductor D

Player Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B* X X C X D X E X Total 2 2 (1 Indecision.) *Player B circled both choices.

Comments

Player A: “They had better comments and understanding of the first piece [conductor’s piece].” Player B: “I felt the conductor’s confidence and presence was mostly consistent.” Player C: “The varying gestures made more of a connection between the group and conductor.” Player D: “I think the piece was easier to manage.” Player E: “Seemed to be more knowledgeable about piece 2 [colleague’s piece.]

Table 27: Ensemble Evaluation, Confidence, Conductor E

Player Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B* X X C X D X E X Total 4 0 (1 Indecision.) *Player B circled both choices.

Comments

Player A: “Again, they were more confident all around and knew what they wanted.” Player B: “I felt the conductor was consistent.”

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Player C: “The confidence between the meter changes and with the counterpoint made me more comfortable in playing.” Player D: “Really knew the piece well with good ideas.” Player E: “More confident with comments/fanfare style and time signatures.”

Table 28: Ensemble Evaluation, Confidence, Conductor F

Player Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B* X X C X D* X X E X Total 1 2 (2 Indecisions.) *Players B and D circled both choices.

Comments

Player A: “Same as previous comments.” Player B: “I liked how the conductor shared detailed style information and isolated parts they wanted to hear during the rehearsal.” Player C: “There was less variety in the conducting of piece 2 [conductor’s piece] creating somewhat of a disconnect.” Player D: No comments. Player E: “Felt very prepared.”

Combining the results of all five players looking at each of the six conductors, the players thought the conductor was more confident on their own piece 17 out of 30 times, better on their colleague’s piece 9 out of 30 times, and found no discernable difference 4 out of 30 times.

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Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation Data

Five evaluators reviewed the rehearsal tapes. Each evaluator has a position conducting an ensemble at a college or university and most teach private conducting lessons. The evaluators were asked to compare the two pieces for each conductor based on several musical metrics, as well as answer the same four questions as the ensemble. The results are summarized below.

Once again, all personal pronouns in the comments have been changed to they or their to avoid revealing the gender of the conductor. The restuls are presented in the tables below

“Please circle which piece’s performance you felt was better in each of the following categories.”

Accuracy of Notes and Rhythms

Table 29: Conducting Pegagogue Evaluation, Notes and Rhythms, Conductor A

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C* X X D X E X Total 2 2 (1 Indecision.) *Evaluator C circled both choices.

Table 30: Conducting Pedogogue Evaluation, Notes and Rhythms, Conductor B

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C* X X D X E X Total 3 1 (1 Indecision.) *Evaluator C circled both choices.

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Table 31: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Notes and Rhythms, Conductor C

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C* X X D X E X Total 2 2 (1 Indecision.) *Evaluator C circled both choices.

Table 32: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Notes and Rhythms, Conductor D

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C* X X D X E X Total 0 4 (1 Indecision.) *Evaluator C circled both choices.

Table 33: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Notes and Rhythms, Conductor E

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C X D X E X Total 2 3

Table 34: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Notes and Rhythms, Condctor F

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C* X X D X E X Total 2 2 (1 Indecision.) *Evaluator C circled both choices.

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Combining the results of all five evaluators looking at each of the six conductors, the evaluators thought the accuracy of notes and rhythms was better on the conductor’s own piece 11 out of 30 times, better on their colleague’s piece 14 out of 30 times, and found no discernable difference 5 out of 30 times.

Intonation and Balance of the Ensemble

Table 35: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Intonation and Balance, Conductor A

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A* X X B X C* X X D X E X Total 1 2 (2 Indecisions.) *Evaluators A and C circled both choices.

Table 36: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Intonation and Balance, Conductor B

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C* X X D X E X Total 3 1 (1 Indecision.) *Evaluator C circled both choices.

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Table 37: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Intonation and Balance, Conductor C

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C* X X D X E X Total 2 2 (1 Indecision.) *Evaluator C circled both choices.

Table 38: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Balance and Intonation, Conductor D

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C* X X D X E X Total 0 4 (1 Indecision.) *Evaluator C circled both choices.

Table 39: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Balance and Intonation, Conductor E

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C X D X E X Total 2 3

Table 40: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Intonation and Balance, Conductor F

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C* X X D X E X Total 3 1 (1 Indecision.) *Evaluator C circled both choices.

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Combining the results of all five evaluators looking at each of the six conductors, the evaluators thought the intonation and balance of the ensemble was better on the conductor’s own piece 11 out of 30 times, better on their colleague’s piece 13 out of 30 times, and found no discernable difference 6 out of 30 times.

Appropriateness of Tempi

Table 41: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluations, Tempi, Conductor A

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A* X X B X C* X X D X E X Total 1 2 (2 Indecisions.) *Evaluators A and C circled both choices.

Table 42: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Tempi, Conductor B

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C* X X D X E X Total 2 2 (1 Indecision.) *Evaluator C circled both choices.

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Table 43: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Tempi, Conductor C

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C* X X D X E X Total 1 3 (1 Indecision.) *Evaluator C circled both choices.

Table 44: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Tempi, Conductor D

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C* X X D X E X Total 0 4 (1 Indecision.) *Evaluator C circled both choices.

Table 45: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Tempi, Conductor E

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C* X X D X E X Total 3 1 (1 Indecision.) *Evaluator C circled both choices.

Table 46: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Tempi, Conductor F

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C* X X D X E X Total 3 1 (1 Indecision.) *Evaluator C circled both choices.

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Combining the results of all five evaluators looking at each of the six conductors, the evaluators thought the appropriateness of tempi was better on the conductor’s own piece 10 out of 30 times, better on their colleague’s piece 13 out of 30 times, and found no discernable difference 7 out of 30 times.

Artistic Expression

Table 47: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Artistic Expression, Conductor A

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C* X X D X E X Total 1 3 (1 Indecision.) *Evaluator C circled both choices.

Table 48: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Artisitc Expression, Conductor B

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C* X X D X E X Total 3 1 (1 Indecision.) *Evaluator C circled both choices.

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Table 49: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Artisitc Expression, Conductor C

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C* X X D X E X Total 2 2 (1 Indecision.) *Evaluator C circled both choices.

Table 50: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Artisitic Expression, Conductor D

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C* X X D X E X Total 1 3 (1 Indecision.) *Evaluator C circled both choices.

Table 51: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Artistic Expression, Conductor E

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C* X X D X E X Total 2 2 (1 Indecision.) *Evaluator C circled both choices.

Table 52: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Artistic Expression, Conductor F

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C X D X E X Total 5 0

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Combining the results of all five evaluators looking at each of the six conductors, the evaluators thought the accuracy of notes and rhythms was better on the conductor’s own piece 14 out of 30 times, better on their colleague’s piece 11 out of 30 times, and found no discernable difference 5 out of 30 times.

“During which rehearsal/performance did the conductor’s gestural vocabulary give the ensemble a better idea of how to express the music? Please reference any specific gestures you found particularly effective/ineffective.”

Table 53: Condcuting Pedagogue Evaluation, Gestural Vocabulary, Conductor A

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C X D X E X Total 1 4

Comments

Evaluator A: “Piece 1 [conductor’s piece] seemed more so at first, but the last run though of piece 2 [colleague’s piece] was the most expressive part of the session.” Evaluator B: “Subdividing the end of the beat/phrase in piece 1 [conductor’s piece] seemed ineffective.” Evaluator C: “Not much difference. It seems hard to differentiate gesture on chorales like these.” Evaluator D: “Overall, they seemed more ‘connected’ and vibrant in example 2 [colleague’s piece].” Evaluator E: “I thought the conductor showed more to help the ensemble on piece 1 [conductor’s piece] – particularly with the style and they showed some subdivision to help control tempo.

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Table 54: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Gestural Vocabulary, Condcutor B

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C* D X E X Total 3 1 (1 Absention.) *Evaluator C said neither.

Comments

Evaluator A: “The conductor was not particularly effective with his gestures for wither piece but he seemed to know piece 2 [colleague’s piece] better.” Evaluator B: “Basically the gestural vocabulary was ineffective in general.” Evaluator C: No comments. Evaluator D: “Not a lot gesturally on either, but first [conductor’s piece] seems to have the edge.” Evaluator E: “I’d say narrowly piece 1 [conductor’s piece]. This conductor does not have a large gestural vocabulary but I think piece 1 was a bit stronger.

Table 55: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Gestural Vocabulary, Conductor C

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C X D X E X Total 3 2

Comments

Evaluator A: “Some errors with piece 1 [colleague’s piece]. Gesture’s with piece 2 [conductor’s piece] seemed more intuitive.” Evaluator B: “Conductor had difficulty with patterns in piece 1 [colleague’s piece]. Releases were ineffective in both pieces.” Evaluator C: “Just a couple of small gestures came forward in piece 2 [conductor’s piece].”

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Evaluator D: No comments. Evaluator E: “This conductor seemed to have better/stronger gestures for piece 1 [colleague’s piece] but not by much. During piece 1 they showed a nice rallentando at the end and seemed to know how it should go. During piece 2 [conductor’s piece] they seemed to let them play at will and wasn’t really leading them. They seemed surprised at one point during piece 2 and looked at them funny.”

Table 56: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Gestural Vocabulary, Conductor D

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C* D X E X Total 1 3 (1 Absention.) *Evaluator C said neither.

Comments

Evaluator A: “The flow of the conducting gestures connected particularly well with piece 2 [colleague’s piece].” Evaluator B: “Basic pattern was dragging in piece 1 [conductor’s piece].” Evaluator C: “The conductor has no gestural vocabulary.” Evaluator D: No Comments. Evaluator E: “Although piece 2 [colleague’s piece] was a far similar work musically and rhythmically, the conductor did some nice things with piece 1 [conductor’s piece]. Although not a strong conductor, they showed more knowledge of what they wanted to do with the piece 1. They used the left hand occasionally (for the tuba entrance). They need to drop the left arm if they’re not using it ;)”

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Table 57: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Gestural Vocabulary, Conductor E

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C* X X D X E X Total 2 2 (1 Indecision.) *Evaluator C circled both choices.

Comments

Evaluator A: “The conducting seemed more natural and intuitive with piece 2 [conductor’s piece].” Evaluator B: No Comments. Evaluator C: No Comments. Evaluator D: “Indications of attack on the beat as well as indications of fractional beat entries were confident.” Evaluator E: “They seemed to know where the musical lines were going in piece 2 [conductor’s piece] and they showed that. In piece 1 [colleague’s piece] they seemed to be using a lot of prep beats which they did not appear to do in piece 2. I felt that they know piece 2 much better. They showed some gestures of syncopation to the right players at times in piece 2 during the final run through (to the trombonist).”

Table 58: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Gestural Vocabulary, Condcutor F

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C X D X E X Total 5 0

Comments

Evaluator A: “More use of facial expression and full body with piece 2 [conductor’s piece].”

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Evaluator B: “Did not conduct the style of the music in piece 1 [colleague’s piece] at all. Was too for the fanfare like quality of the piece. Their ‘basic’ style fit piece 2 [conductor’s piece] much better.” Evaluator C: “Perhaps just before the piece [conductor’s piece] was more lyrical.” Evaluator D: “Setting this up as a choral seemed to help.” Evaluator E: “This conductor is not very advanced but they showed a nice legato style and a sensitivity that didn’t exist in piece 1 [colleague’s piece] – or perhaps it was too difficult for them to conduct. They seemed more comfortable conducting piece 2 [conductor’s piece.]

Combining the results of all five evaluators looking at each of the six conductors, the evaluators thought the conductor’s gestural vocabulary was better on the conductor’s own piece

15 out of 30 times, better on their colleague’s piece 12 out of 30 times, found no discernable difference 1 out of 30 times, and did not select an option 2 out of 30 times.

“During which rehearsal/performance did the conductor’s rehearsal comments more efficiently improve the ensemble’s performance? Please reference any comments you found particularly effective/ineffective?”

Table 59: Condcuting Pedagogue Evaluation, Rehearsal Comments, Conductor A

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C X D X E X Total 0 5

Comments

Evaluator A: “More growth with piece 2 [colleague’s piece]. Very definitive ideas regarding expression.”

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Evaluator B: “The conductor was much more specific in general piece 2 [colleague’s], and did more actual rehearsing.” Evaluator C: “They spent much more time on 2 [colleague’s piece] than 1 [conductor’s piece]. Know what they wanted.” Evaluator D: “Spoke more about musicality.” Evaluator E: “Although the conductor showed more to help the ensemble on piece 1 [conductor’s piece], I think they had more direct and musical comments on piece 2 [colleague’s piece], particularly with regards to balance.”

Table 60: Condcuting Pedagogue Evaluation, Rehearsal Comments, Conductor B

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C* D X E X Total 3 1 (1 Absention.) *Evaluator C said neither.

Comments

Evaluator A: “Not much difference regarding conductor comments.” Evaluator B: “Hard to tell, they didn’t seem to be listening to the ensemble, rather had their ‘notes’that they presented prior to each piece.” Evaluator C: No Comments. Evaluator D: “They spoke before starting each piece…there seemed to be more conduct on piece 1 [conductor’s piece.] Evaluator E: “The conductor seemed to questions themselves about piece 2 [colleague’s piece], and they started that rehearsal with a . If that were their composition/arrangement they’d likely know the tempo (they would always be right!).”

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Table 61: Conducting PEdagogue Evaluation, Rehearsal Comments, Condcutor C

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A* B X C* D X E X Total 0 3 (2 Absentions.) *Evaluators A and C said neither.

Comments

Evaluator A: No comments. Evaluator B: “Neither comments seemed to help much.” Evaluator C: “Could not understand any of the comments.” Evaluator D: “Not much info given on either.” Evaluator E: “Their comments for piece 1 [colleague’s piece] were more meaningful.”

Table 62: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Rehearsal Comments, Conductor D

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C* D X E X Total 3 1 (1 Absention.)

Comments

Evaluator A: “Comments were particular specific with piece 1 [conductor’s piece].” Evaluator B: “Describing the in piece 1 [conductor’s piece] sort of back-fired, the ensemble didn’t play it very well.” Evaluator C: No comments. Evaluator D: “They spoke more during piece 1 [conductor’s piece], the way they spoke about things was more direct in piece 1 than in piece 2 [colleague’s piece], but the musical gestures were more prominent in piece 2 and seemed to have more meaning.”

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Evaluator E: “They were able to get to match style and articulation on the opening theme in piece 1 [conductor’s piece] by explaining what they wanted. They demonstrated knowledge of this piece before they began playing.”

Table 63: Condcuting Pedagogue Evaluation, Rehearsal Comments, Conductor E

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C X D X E X Total 5 0

Comments

Evaluator A: “Not much difference, but piece 2 [conductor’s piece] needed a bit more time for the players to become comfortable.” Evaluator B: “It seemed like in piece 2 [conductor’s piece] that the commentary of the conductor helped the ensemble. Piece 2 was a little harder for the ensemble. Evaluator C: “Comments were good in both.” Evaluator D: “Though the verbal rehearsal techniques were evident in both, piece 2 [conductor’s piece] seemed to have the edge.” Evaluator E: “They had good comments for each piece but they’re comments for piece 2 [conductor’s piece] were more direct and insightful. They’re comments for piece 1 [colleague’s piece] were somewhat generic (“Tuba – hold the last note longer”). I liked that they isolated instruments in rehearsing both works.”

Table 64: Condcuting Pedagogue Evaluation, Rehearsal Comments, Condcutor F

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A* B X C* D X E X Total 2 1 (2 Absentions.) *Evaluators A and C said neither.

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Comments

Evaluator A: “About the same.” Evaluator B: “Verbal commentary seemed to help piece 1 [colleague’s piece] a little better. Not much commentary on piece 2 [conductor’s piece].” Evaluator C: “Couldn’t understand any of the comments.” Evaluator D: No comments. Evaluator E: “This piece is a chorale so let’s blend and balance” – was a good way to begin piece 2 [conductor’s piece]. They talked about the articulation with piece 1 [colleague’s piece], although I’m not sure that helped prior to reading piece 1. They seemed very happy with the performance of piece 2 (applauding), whereas with piece 1 it just stopped unceremoniously.”

Combining the results of all five evaluators looking at each of the six conductors, the evaluators thought the accuracy of notes and rhythms was better on the conductor’s own piece 13 out of 30 times, better on their colleague’s piece 11 out of 30 times, and did not select an option

6 out of 30 times.

“Did you notice any substantial difference in eye contact with the ensemble when the conductor was rehearsing one piece or the other? If so, please indicate.”

Table 65: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Eye Contact, Condcutor A

Player Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece No Discernable Difference A X B X C X D X E X Total 1 0 4

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Table 66: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Eyue Contact, Condcutor B

Player Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece No Discernable Difference A X B X C X D X E X Total 1 0 4

Table 67: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Eye Contact, Conductor C

Player Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece No Discernable Difference A X B X C X D X E* X Total 1 1 3

*Comment from Evaluator E: “They seemed to have their eyes down more in piece 2 colleague’s piece.] During piece 1[conductor’s piece] they ‘nodded’ at them, signifying that they were happy with their playing/interpretation. I didn’t see this during piece 2.

Table 68: Conducting Peagogue Evaluation, Eye Contact, Conductor D

Player Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece No Discernable Difference A X B X C X D X E X Total 1 2 2

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Table 69: Condcuting Pedagogue Evaluation, Eye Contact, Conductor E

Player Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece No Discernable Difference A X B X C X D X E X Total 2 1 2

Table 70: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Eye Contact, Condcutor F

Player Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece No Discernable Difference A X B X C X D X E X Total 4 0 1

Combining the results of all five evaluators looking at each of the six conductors, the evaluators thought the eye contact was better on the conductor’s own piece 10 out of 30 times, better on their colleague’s piece 4 out of 30 times, and found no discernable difference 16 out of

30 times.

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“During which rehearsal/performance did you feel the conductor had a better or more confident presence interaction with you on the podium? Please reference anything in particular you felt was different between the two pieces.”

Table 71: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Confidence, Condcutor A

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C X D X E X Total 1 4

Comments

Evaluator A: “Piece 1 [conductor’s piece] was more assertive than beginning of piece 2 [colleague’s piece]. Last few minutes were particular strong, however. Evaluator B: No Comments. Evaluator C: “This is noticed more through his rehearsal comments than any gestural change, though he seemed more engaged with piece 2 [colleague’s piece].” Evaluator D: “Again, overall, he seemed more vibrant in piece 2 [colleague’s piece].” Evaluator E: “I felt the conductor had a more confident presence on piece 1 [conductor’s piece] and was ‘leading’ the group more. It appeared that they knew this work a bit more…”

Table 72: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Confidence, Conductor B

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C X D X E X Total 2 3

Comments

Evaluator A: “There was not much difference in the technique, but both the conductor and the ensemble seemed to connect more comfortably with piece 2 [colleague’s piece].”

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Evaluator B: “Not a very confident conductor in general.” Evaluator C: No comments. Evaluator D: No comments. Evaluator E: “At times they seemed surprised by the music in piece 2 [colleague’s piece] as though they didn’t know what to expect or what the music was going to sound like. Piece 1 [conductor’s piece] did not surprise them musically.”

Table 73: Condcuting Pedagogue Evaluation, Confidence, Condcutor C

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C X D X E X Total 4 1

Comments

Evaluator A: “The conducting seemed more comfortable with piece 2 [conductor’s piece].” Evaluator B: No Comments. Evaluator C: “Barely discernable.” Evaluator D: No Comments. Evaluator E: “I would say piece 1 [colleague’s piece] but narrowly. Not a strong conductor…they tend to ‘throw out the beat’ at times.”

Table 74: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Confidence Conductor D

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C X D X E X Total 2 3

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Comments

Evaluator A: “Very natural with piece 2 [colleague’s piece]. Piece 1 [conductor’s piece] seemed more pedantic.” Evaluator B: “Just seemed to identify more with piece 1 [conductor’s piece] than piece 2 [colleague’s piece].” Evaluator C: No Comments. Evaluator D: No Comments. Evaluator E: “It appeared to me that they knew what to do with piece 1 [conductor’s piece] and that he was simply going through the motions with piece 2 [colleague’s piece].”

Table 75: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Confidence, Conductor E

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C* X X D X E X Total 3 1 (1 Indecision.) *Evaluator C circled both choices.

Comments

Evaluator A: “Conducting of piece 1 [colleague’s piece] was more conservative/tentative.” Evaluator B: “The conductor seemed to work piece 2 [conductor’s piece] better than piece 1 [colleague’s piece], of course it could be because piece 2 seemed more difficult for the quintet.” Evaluator C: No comments. Evaluator D: There was confidence in rehearsal technique (verbal) in both, but I thought piece 1 [colleague’s piece] had the edge.” Evaluator E: “They seemed to know piece 2 [conductor’s piece] better and demonstrated a direction of line and they seemed to know who to focus on (who had the important part) at times during piece 2.”

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Table 76: Conducting Pedagogue Evaluation, Confidence, Condcutor F

Evaluator Conductor’s Piece Colleague’s Piece A X B X C* X X D X E X Total 4 0 (1 Indecision.) *Evaluator C circled both choices.

Comments

Evaluator A: “There seemed to be more direct connection with piece 2 [conductor’s piece].” Evaluator B: “Possibly because piece 2 [conductor’s piece] seemed easier for the ensemble.” Evaluator C: No comments. Evaluator D: “They seemed more comfortable, gestures fit more appropriately.” (In reference to the conductor’s piece.) Evaluator E: “They’re style was much better for piece 2 [conductor’s piece]. I didn’t feel that they were confident about piece 1 [colleague’s piece] at times, didn’t seem to know how to show what they needed. It was almost like they were playing along with them and not really leading them.”

Combining the results of all five players looking at each of the six conductors, the players thought the conductor was more confident on their own piece 16 out of 30 times, better on their colleague’s piece 12 out of 30 times, and found no discernable difference 2 out of 30 times.

Additional Comments for Conductor A Evaluator A: “Seemed as if piece 2 [colleague’s piece] was less familiar, but the conductor has the skills and musicianship to achieve an effective rehearsal.” Evaluator B: None. Evaluator C: None. Evaluator D: “Some musical gestures, overall a bit large in general…enjoyed.” Evaluator E: None.

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Additional Comments for Conductor B Evaluator A: None. Evaluator B: “The conductor started talking with ‘notes’ before ever hearing piece 1 and piece 2. Shows a lack of trust in the ensemble.” Evaluator C: “This is an extremely difficult assignment. The conducting is poor, so there is really no difference in any way between the two pieces. Honestly, after just two candidates, I am beginning to question the validity of this research model.” Evaluator D: None. Evaluator E: None.

Additional Comments for Conductor C Evaluator A: None. Evaluator B: None. Evaluator C: None. Evaluator D: “Little eye contact, didn’t seem to be a lot of connection with the group.” Evaluator E: None.

Additional Comments for Conductor D Evaluator A: None. Evaluator B: “Another conductor who talked before even hearing a note.” Evaluator C: “This person’s experience as a conductor seems limited, so it is difficult to access material above.” Evaluator D: “Generally musical with baton technique, more expressive in piece 2 [colleague’s piece].” Evaluator E: None.

Additional Comments for Conductor E Evaluator A: None.

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Evaluator B: “This conductor seemed the most comfortable in front of the ensemble of all the conductors.” Evaluator C: None. Evaluator D: None. Evaluator E: None.

Additional Comments for Conductor F Evaluator A: None. Evaluator B: “Another conductor who talked before hearing a note.” Evaluator C: None. Evaluator D: None. Evaluator E: None.

An Additional Note from Evaluator C I found this to be a troubling project. In most cases, I found no difference between the examples, either because they were so different from each other, or because the conductor did not have the skills to demonstrate the traits about which I was asked to comment. I have a feeling these were composers who were conducting. My biggest take away from this exercise (sorry!) is that composers need more conducting and rehearsal training and experience. Because of this, though I am intrigued by the premise of the research, I’m not convinced that the exercise I just completed will result in tangible results.

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Conductor Self-Evaluations

Finally, all six conductors were asked to watch their own videos back and fill out a self- evaluation similar to the ensemble and the evaluators. The results of their surveys are detailed below.

“Please circle which piece’s performance you felt was better in teach of the following categories.”

Table 77: Self Evaluation, Notes and Rhythms

Conductor Yes No A X B X C X D X E X F X Total 4 2

Table 78: Self Evaluation, Balance and Intonation

Conductor Yes No A X B X C D X E X F X Total 3 3

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Table 79: Self Evaluation, Tempi

Conductor Yes No A X B X C D X E X F X Total 3 3

Table 80: Self Evaluation, Artisitc Expression

Conductor Yes No A X B X C X D X E X F X Total 5 1

“During which rehearsal/performance did you feel your gestural vocabulary worked more to express the music? Please reference any gestures you think were particularly effective or ineffective?”

Table 81: Self Evaluation, Gestural Vocabulary

Conductor Yes No A X B X C X D X E X F X Total 6 0

Comments

Conductor A: “This felt almost the same between my piece and my colleague’s piece. My piece had more to “dig in” to with interpretation.”

Conductor B: “I believe that my gestural vocabulary was more pronounced during my piece,

115 especially with regards to hand motion and overall movement size. My hands looked a bit more relaxed and comfortable while conducting those beat patterns, while I more appropriately expressed dynamic contrast through shifts in pattern size. For my colleague’s piece, my right hand appeared very rigid and my shoulders were raised, revealing excess tension. I did not necessarily feel less comfortable at the time, but it is evident upon viewing the video.” Conductor C: “I felt that in my piece my conducting more effectively expressed the music because my colleague’s piece contained more contrast in terms of articulation, which I struggled with keeping time and representing articulation in his piece, so I approached the piece with the goal of keeping time and trying to make as many of the cues as possible. In my piece, given its mostly legato phrasing and ambient texture, I didn’t need to convey as many different articulations.” Conductor D: “There was a lot of subtle baton movement that occurred between beats in my piece that didn’t occur in the other. I felt like I have more collaborative connection with the performers for my piece.” Conductor E: “There was something to be said for knowing exactly what I wanted to hear. I think even without knowing it a really dug into the excitement of my piece. For example, the big sweeping motions on m beat patterns certainly helped drive the enthusiasm. I think the fact that I was concentrating so hard on making sure I did exactly what I felt had to be done to make my colleagues piece sound good in the end deflected from the artistic expression. I think the performance of his was more technically proficient but mine was more expressive.” Conductor F: “I feel like I was more effective in the cueing gestures in my own piece, as I barely had to reference the score. I was also able to feel my piece more personally which allowed me to get into the sound world deeper and provide more appropraite gestures.”

“During which rehearsal/performance did you feel your comments worked more efficiently to improve the ensembles performance? Please reference any comments you found particularly effective/ineffective.”

Table 82: Self Evaluation, Rehearsal Comments

Conductor Yes No A X B X C X D X E X F X Total 4 2

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Comments

Conductor A: “The comments worked more efficiently to improve the ensembles performance in my own piece. I felt like my piece had more to interpret (articulations, tempo marking, dynamics) than my colleague’s piece.”

Conductor B: “Overall, I believe that the low amount of comments I made in general allowed for improved performance during my colleague’s piece. Due to lesser personal familiarity with the piece when compared to mine, I did not have as many small details in mind when addressing the group and listening to the play through. Having heard my own piece’s playback prior to the rehearsal augmented this. I think I overstepped the boundary of an appropriate amount of comments for my piece, simply due to a natural tendency for seeking effective execution in my own work and trying to match my notions of what it should sound like.”

Conductor C: “I feel like my explanation of my piece in the beginning helped to convey to the ensemble the overall musical goal of the piece. I feel like I was able to do this because since I wrote the piece, I was very familiar with it. I can’t necessarily say for certain if this comment would have improved the performance of the work as I said it prior to rehearsing the piece the first time.”

Conductor D: “My piece came out of the gate sounding pretty much like I wanted it to, where as I had a bigger gap to cross with my colleague’s piece.”

Conductor E: “Certainly my own. When the horn player asked about the placement of the grace notes I immediately had an answer for him because I know exactly what I wanted to hear – right on the beat. Many of the comments I used for both pieces were actually very similar because the pieces were so similar in style. For example, I reference playing “light” in both pieces with the trumpets. Even watching back thought I feel like the comments I made for my own piece were more organic and intimate to the music while the comments and rehearsal I did with my colleagues piece were more planned out and “by the book”. Obviously I studied the scores and anticipated potential things to address for both rehearsals, but again, my comments for my own piece seemed to be more natural and expressive, versus the other piece being more straightforward and technical.”

Conductor F: “Since I had a better auditory impression of what my piece was supposed to sound like, I was able to more effective give instructions on how to improve the character of the piece. (i.e. to play with more definite articulations, more energy, etc.)”

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“During which rehearsal/performance did you feel you had a better (or more confident) presence on the podium? Please reference anything in particular you felt was different between the two pieces.”

Table 83: Self Evaluation, Confidence

Conductor Yes No A X B X C X D X E X F X Total 6 0

Comments

Conductor A: “When rehearsing my own piece, I knew what to listen for and had a much better idea of what areas might pose difficulties for the performers.”

Conductor B: “During my piece, I believe that my gestures more appropriately expressed my intentions, especially with regard to dynamics and articulations. I noticed that I looked more tense during my colleague’s reading, significantly making me look less confident and carry a lesser presence. Although I think talking less seemed to facilitate an effective rehearsal of my colleague’s piece, I did not appear to speak as confidently, with some directions initially not making as much sense as what was previously mentioned during my piece’s time block.”

Conductor C: “I definitely had a more confident presence on the podium for my work. Because I wrote the piece, I was intimately familiar with all of the small details in it and the overall musical goal of the work, and similarly, because I was conducting something of my own, I wasn’t worried about messing up another person’s piece.” Conductor D: “For my colleague’s piece, I was worried I might miss a change, which hurt my expressivity. I felt more comfortable conducting my own piece because I felt like I could trust the musicians, and adjust as necessary (instead of trying to control things.” Conductor E: “During the rehearsal, I honestly felt good about both. Conducting has been something that I have been doing for a long time so at no point did I feel uncomfortable with being up there or doubt anything I was saying. However – looking back at the tape after some time, I realize that I do indeed seem more “relaxed” with my own piece, almost as if I am not concentrating so hard. My speech is just a little more fluid and gestures just a bit more confident.”

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Conductor F: “During the rehearsal of my own piece I felt more confident because I knew that I had complete artistic control of the piece. I felt like more of a creator than an interpreter. I was free from the burden of committing errors since the piece was completely mine.”

Practicum Results Discussion

Gestural Vocabulary

Looking at all the combine results from the ensemble, evaluators, and conductors’ self- evaluations, the gestural vocabulary was better on the conductor’s own piece 41 out of 66 or

62% of the time. The gestural vocabulary was better on the colleague’s piece 22 out of 66 or

33% of the time, and there was no difference 3 out of 66 or 5% of the time. Considering the larger sample size of combining all the results, I do feel comfortable in saying this result is somewhat definitive. It stands to reason as gesture is something that is very personal and should come naturally to the conductor. The word “natural” was found quite often in the comments of the ensemble evaluations with comments like the ones below:

“I felt piece 1 felt more natural for the conductor to conduct and give gestures”

“I better understood what the conductor wanted in the first piece based on how he expressed what they were looking for.”

The conductors themselves also seemed to pick up on this trend in their self-evaluations.

“I believe that my gestural vocabulary was more pronounced during my piece, especially with regards to hand motion and overall movement size.”

“I think even without knowing it I really dug into the excitement of my piece.” For example, the big sweeping motions on my beat patterns certainly helped drive the enthusiasm.”

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The evaluators however shed a different light on this research. Several of them identified that many of the conductors were simply not experienced enough to make a clear evaluation of what I was trying to look at. Many of their comments didn’t even deal with discerning a difference between the two performances but simply noted that the conductor “had difficulty with beat patterns” or simply that the conductor “has no gestural vocabulary.” This is a trend that would continue to affect the research during other parts of the evaluations. In the case of

Conductor E however, who was one of the more experienced conductors, Evaluator E did pick up on a clear difference in the gestural vocabulary saying “They seemed to know where the musical lines were going in piece 2 and they showed that. In piece 1 they seemed to be using a lot of prep beats which they did not appear to do in piece 2. I felt that they knew piece 2 much better.” Particularly with knowing the direction of the musical lines, it was clear that this conductor knew the true anatomy of their own piece and had a clear picture in their head of exactly what they wanted it to sound like.

Rehearsal Comments

When it came to what the conductors said during rehearsal, the results were much less definitive. Looking at the combined results from the ensemble, evaluators, and conductors’ self- evaluations, the rehearsal comments were better on the conductor’s own piece 31 out of 66 or

47% of the time. The rehearsal comments were better on the colleague’s piece 26 out of 66 or

39% of the time, and there was no difference 9 out of 66 or 14% of the time. This does not seem surprising as, unlike the natural and personal character of gestures, comments are a much more technical thing. If one does not have a lot of conducting experience, listening and coming up with comments to use in rehearsal can be much harder than simply moving to the music.

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The conductors noticed some things in their self-evaluations which I found interesting.

Conductor B mentioned in regards to their colleague’s piece “Due to lesser personal familiarity with the piece when compared to mine, I did not have as many small details in mind when addressing the group and listening.” They want on to say “I think I overstepped the boundary of an appropraite amount of comments for my piece, simply due to a natural tendency for seeking effective execution in my own work and trying to match my notions of what it should sound like.” This harkens back to the question of being able to remove yourself from one of your own pieces that was discussed at length during the interviews. Based on my findings from talking to several people on the subject, I would actually argue that this conductor did not overstep their boundary at all. Rather, I would encourage them to use their personal connection to the piece to give the ensemble the best idea of exactly what it should sound like. After all, that was one of the things that Dr. Boysen and Dr. Cichy loved best about conducting their own music – they can get it exactly how they want it. Conductor E and Conductor F seemed to take the opposite approach.

Condcutor E enjoyed the fact that with their own piece they were able to tell the horn player exactly how to execute the grace notes in their music and Conductor F notes “Since I had a better auditory impression of what my piece was supposed to sound like, I was able to more effectively give instructions on how to improve the character of the piece.”

The evaluators seemed to run into the same problems as with the gestural vocabulary often not being able to give a clear opinion based on a lack of material to evaluate. Many of them mainly noting things such as “Neither comments seemed to help much.” Again, in the case of

Conductor E, Evaluator E was able to notice a clear difference between the two performances explaining, “Comments for piece 2 were more direct and insightful. Their comments for piece 1

121 were somewhat generic (“Tuba – hold the last note longer”).”

Eye Contact

Looking at all the combine results from the ensemble, and the evaluators, the eye contact was better on the conductor’s own piece 15 out of 60 or 25% of the time. The eye contact was better on the colleague’s piece 8 out of 60 or 13% of the time, and there was no difference 37 out of 60 or 62% of the time. According to this sample, it seems that whether the conductor wrote the piece or not, there is little to no difference in eye contact. In retrospect, I regret only putting a “No Discernable Difference” on the rubrics only for this question. It seemed in general that all the other categories were much more definitive and there was a lot more opportunity to choose one option or the other, but based on the comments and the number of times people circles either both or neither choice, I can’t help but think the results would be somewhat different in other sections of the research if people did not feel compelled to pick one option over the other.

Accuracy of Notes, Balance and Intonation, Appropriateness of Tempi

I chose to combine these three categories as they all fell under the umbrella of fairly objective categories about the quality of the music. Looking at all the combined results from the evaluators, and conductors’ self-evaluations, the musical quality was better on the conductor’s own piece 42 out of 108 or 39% of the time. The gestural vocabulary was better on the colleague’s piece 48 out of 108 or 44% of the time, and there was no difference 18 out of 108 or

17% of the time. Once again, these numbers did not tell me much of anything. Part of it may

122 have to do again with the lack of conducting experience with several of the participants, which was a limitation of the study.

Additionally, some of the pieces were more difficult and intricate than others. Despite having five of the most talented players in the Ohio State Wind Symphony, some of the music was invariably harder to sight read and perform in the span of a five-minute rehearsal. Therefore, it can be hard to compare a simple chorale to an intricate fast-moving fanfare, or a spectral piece with no discernable pulse.

Artistic Expression

While 5 out of 6 conductors felt they were more artistic with their own pieces the combine results with the evaluators didn’t yield any significant conclusion. Looking at the combined results from the evaluators, and conductors’ self-evaluations, the artistic expression was better on the conductor’s own piece 19 out of 36 or 53% of the time. The gestural vocabulary was better on the colleague’s piece 12 out of 36 or 33% of the time, and there was no difference 5 out of 36 or 14% of the time. I do not deny that the conductors felt they had better expression on their own pieces, but I also think it is possible that they felt like they could be more artistic because they were more comfortable knowing their own music.

Confidence/Presence on the Podium

The final category dealing with overall confidence and communication with the ensemble was probably hindered by the participant’s lack of experience. Looking at the combined results from the ensemble, evaluators, and conductor’s self-evaluations, the gestural vocabulary was better on the conductor’s own piece 39 out of 66 or 59% of the time. The gestural vocabulary

123 was better on the colleague’s piece 21 out of 66 or 32% of the time, and there was no difference

6 out of 66 or 9% of the time. This was one of the more definitive results, at just under 60%, which is borderline conclusive in my opinion.

The evaluators often left comments such as “Not a very confident conductor in general,” or “This person’s experience as a conductor seems limited, so it is difficult to access material above,” implying there wasn’t much to evaluate. Other times they did notice that a conductor seemed to have a more direct connection to one piece over the other or that “gestures fit more appropriately” when talking about the conductor’s own piece. As I mentioned earlier, the conductors certainly felt and saw themselves as more comfortable on the podium during their own works, emphasizing the special connection that became apparent during the interviews as seen some sample reactions below.

“I knew what to listen for and had a much better idea of what areas might pose problems.”

“My gestures more appropriately expressed my intentions, especially with regard to dynamics and articulations.”

“I was intimately familiar with all of the small details in it and the overall musical goal of the work.”

“I felt like more of a creator than an interpreter.”

The last comment I found particularly interesting. As discovered during the interviews, the longer one composes and conducts, the more they seem to blend. This conductor was a composition major who had just started taking a conducting class. Therefore, the ideas of composing and conducting were still probably very much separated for them.

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Overall Summary

I did not find what I would consider any considerable difference between conducting one’s own music or the music of another composer in the practical application. Clearly, all of the conductors had more intimate knowledge of their own music and in many cases more of a personal connection that showed through in their conducting. However, as discussed in the interviews, the goal should be to conduct someone else’s piece as if it was your own. These results may be due to the study limitations, which included small sample size, that the pieces were only 14 to 16 measures, the short rehearsal times, and that some of the conductors had little or no experience conducting.

The better explanation however is that the legitimacy of these findings are questionable at best. Although the study failed to answer my original question I believe in turn, I have been able to prove something even more important. Composers with good conducting skills have a distinct advantage when it comes to the performance of their music. Evaluator C in particular had a hard time completing their evaluations. As they noted, after only the second example they began to question how effective this research was and in the end their biggest take away was that composers need more conducting experience.

Upon reading that comment I immediately remembered several conversations from my interviews, particularly Mr. Camphouse saying “Composers need to develop good conducting skills.” Dr. Mahr talked about how composers must take conducting and methods classes to really “get their hands dirty” and develop an understanding for the instruments they are writing for and how to conduct. Dr. Cichy even admitted “I've seen composers crash and burn, trying to conduct their own stuff.” He went on to talk about his participation in a Virginia Band festival

125 where guest composers are often invited to conduct their own pieces. He and his colleagues are invited every simply because of the lack of composers who can conduct as well as they can and lead their works with efficiency. If nobody knows the piece better than the composer, then it only makes sense that having the rehearsal lead by the composers themselves advantageous for everyoone. But without good conducting skills, the composer is simply not in a position to take advantage of this opportunity.

In the future I would love to repeat this research and be able to eliminate many of the variables. With the proper funding and personnel, it would be ideal to have many of the people interviewed participate in writing pieces and conducting both their own piece and that of a colleague’s in front of a band. The variable of having the pieces range in difficulty could be solves by specifying ‘a Grade 3 piece for ’ with strict time constraints. That combined with knowing all the participants have refined conducting skills could give more legitimate results and discover some further nuance in what we have already found. For many of the interviewees, participation in such an activity could be an interesting activity to examine their own process and see how they put their thoughts on this matter in to effect.

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Concluding Thoughts

At the beginning of this study, I set out to answer five questions about being a composer/conductor and I believe all five of those were well covered. I believe this process served as a journey of self-discovery for myself, the interviewees, and many of the people involved in the practicum. I always hypothesized that my interest in conducting and teaching played an invaluable roll in my success as a composer, but this research proved to me just how much of a difference it has made over the years.

How does being a composer and conductor influence the way one approaches various aspects of their jobs, including score study, rehearsal technique, compositional process, and teaching methods?

Starting first with the influence of various skills and aspects of the jobs as listed in the question above. In all, I believe being a composer/conductor allows you to do each of those jobs more efficiently. To demonstrate this, I will adopt Mr. Camphouse’s idea of thinking like a composer when one conducts and thinking like a conductor when one composes.

Score Study – When a conductor who composes looks at a score, he or she is able to understand the score by thinking like the composer. It is easier to recognize the chord progressions, ostinatos, development sections, climaxes, and motive transformations because at some point they have done something similar in their own music. What we study influences what we write and what we write influence what we study. Therefore, looking at scores is not only a preparation of someone else’s music, but reading a new text on compositional technique. The

127 conductor who composes deeply cares about why the composer wrote this piece, what each note means to him or her, and why certain musical decisions are made and will ask for the answers when they are unsure, because they have those special musical moments in each of their own pieces. In my piece “Someday” which I wrote for the Theta Upsilon chapter of Kappa Kappa Psi, of which I was a member, certain notes, key signatures, and rhythms were chosen based on connections to the fraternity of which I am so proud to be a member. The conductor who takes the time to learn and realize the specific things that make a piece special to the composer will work with their group to bring them out.

Rehearsal Technique – One of the biggest things people said they liked about conducting their own music, was they knew exactly how it was supposed to sound and they could get it exactly the way they wanted it. The composer who conducts knows what this feels like, they will try to get into the mind of the composer – know what the composer wants, and believes they know exactly how this piece is supposed to sound. They will be “The Composer’s Advocate.” The composer who conducts will always treat other’s music with dignity and reason. They will make a concerted effort to reach out and get their questions answered when possible, and they will try to give every composer their own “Ideal Performance” that Dr. Boerma referenced because they know what it is like to constantly be chasing that ideal.

Compositional Process – I feel like Mr. Buckley said it best, “Far less stupid mistakes.” The composer who conducts has worked with and been around these instruments daily and knows what they can do. They can think like the conductor when they work through multi-meter passages and sudden tempo changes, to see how these things will feel for the person on the podium and allow the music to flow and make it easier for the ensemble to play together. They can think like the performer to choose parts that are playable and comfortable for each

128 instrument. Furthermore, they can write parts that they know are not only fun and exciting to play, but also playable. They can write music that is not only challenging, but also enjoyable.

Teaching Methods – Perhaps most important of all, composer/conductors can teach their students about the importance of all these things. They can encourage their students to keep playing their instrument, study conducting, and most importantly – not to confine themselves to their laptop.

The composer who conducts can look at their student’s piece and tell them what the performers and the conductor will say when they receive the music. The conductor who composes will tell their student to dig deep into the score and the meaning of the music and to try to give that composer the perfect performance they were chasing. I wish to iterate once more, that I do not believe in any way that all composers and conductors do not possess these skills and attention to detail. However, I think there is something to be said for having an experience of your own being on the other side, understanding the creative and the interpretive processes.

What are the unique advantages to conducting your own music and how can one better understand composition and conducting?

Music is a form of communication. A form of storytelling to which the composer is the one true witness. Conductors and performers can tell the story in their own voice, but only the composer was there when the story was written, when the event happened. As I mentioned earlier, as Schuller says, and I paraphrase, nobody can have truly objective knowledge of the work and know what the creator was thinking during the process of writing the piece….except the composer. In the study of history, we read books and summaries of past events but, hands

129 down, the best things we can read are the first accounts of what happened. Imagine if President

Lincoln could still walk into a lecture hall and teach a class about the Gettysburg address. When the composer steps on the podium that is actually what happens. The composer can share that

“movie in their head” that Mr. Rose referred to. They can express the importance of every little detail, every phrase, and every emotion. I began this project believing that it was a worthwhile challenge to attempt to remove yourself from one of your own pieces in order to conduct it more efficiently. To worry less about the little details and more about the essentials that the group needs. But listening to the accounts of each interviewee, I have decided it is much more special to embrace that connection. To tell the story of your piece with all its detail, all its emotion, and all its musicality. The challenge rather is to be able to tell someone else’s story in the same way.

To use your knowledge of the process of composing and go deeper into the piece to rehearse and perform it with the utmost care and emotion that you bring your own music. And as a composer, to ensure that you leave behind enough “history” to ensure your story can be told in the most fulfilling and musical way possible.

What are the particular challenges to conducting your own music and how must one adjust to avoid pitfalls during the compositional or rehearsal process?

When I first began this study I believed to a certain degree that severing your connection to your own music in order to achieve maximum efficiency in rehearsal was a major challenge that composer/conductors had to overcome. During the process of completing this research however, I have come to believe it is best to embrace. I have concluded that the one major challenge of conducting your own music is simply experience. A few interviewees mentioned that sometimes composers tend to hear what they want to hear and not what the group is actually

130 playing. However, as Dr. Cichy pointed out, conducting is very much another instrument. The same could be true for a trombone player, cello player, or singer listening to him or herself practice a piece they previously knew. Untrained ears, which have not developed acute practice and listening skills, can easily fall into this trap if not being careful. And the more times we hear something one way, the more we get used to it that certain way. Practice doesn’t always make perfect, but it does always make permanent. The same can be true for conducting. The longer we spend time getting comfortable up on the podium and honing our skills of listening and rehearsing, the more we can be aware of these potential issues and ensure that they do not get in our way of properly rehearsing our music, or the music of others. In my opinion, there is no challenge that experience cannot overcome.

How does the practice of both skills enhance one another and one’s overall musicianship?

As detailed in how composing and conducting affect each of the major skills/parts of our jobs it is easy to see that conducting informs composing and composing informs conducting.

Moreover, the overall trend I identified amongst the interviews and the results from the score study surveys showed one thing very clearly. The longer you compose and conduct, the more it stops being separate activities and simply becomes “being a musician.” The younger people I interviewed (only a few years out of college or in grad school) or people who had been doing one thing for a while and just started the other tended to compartmentalize the different activities. On the contrary, the interviewees who had both composed and conducted for many years made very fluid ties between composing, conducting, performing, and teaching. While these are still

131 different actual activities, through experience, the skills complement each other and become fluid.

A Note on the Notational System

Often in rehearsals I have seen passages with accents, tenuto markings, even marcato, and the conductor has still said to “play light.” In talking with various people and reflecting back on my own experience, I feel as though the best way to describe our notational system is objective, but not subjective. Factual, but not emotional. I know it seems peculiar to describe written music with these words but I believe it captures the fact that it is currently a system that gives very specific directions, but does not account for the feeling of the music, the choices that we must make as performers and conductors and in general the way the music is supposed to sound. It is rather a rough blue print that we have to interpret. This can vary slightly depending on the music that is being interpreted. There is the idea of an “open text” versus and “closed text”. A closed text, such as a phone book or a dictionary, simply gives the reader the information. An open text, such a poetry or song , makes the reader search more for the meaning behind the words. Likewise simpler music, such as an etude or chorale found in a method book is fairly straight-forward and does not require a lot of interpretive decision making to perform. The more complex music gets, the more room there is for interptretation and choices in performance, as is often the case with many of the large ensemble works I have referenced in this study. That is what makes interpretation such an interesting thing and why composers say when they conduct their own music, they can get it exactly how they want it. I believe the trick to improving our notation system is to do so in a way that allows composers to give more information about the feeling of the music, and specific choices they want to hear in the music,

132 but at the same time does not take away the ability of the conductor and performer to interpret with an appropriate amount of their own choices and emotion. I believe if the notation forces conductors and performers to be too exact, and only play what is on the page, the end result will be a very flat and emotionless performance. As a composer, often times hearing what other musicians choose to do is a fun part of the process and like many of the interviewees, I have come to interpret my own music in new ways by hearing the choices others make.

What particular pedagogical conclusions can be drawn from this study?

This, I believe may be the single most important discovery of this research. Composers need to at least have a very basic set of conducting skills. Based on what some of my interviewees said, I am not saying we needed this study to be able to say that, but the practicum certainly showed just how much of a difference it makes. I am not implying that every composer needs to dive into conducting to the extent that I and others have, but having a very basic understanding of how to lead a rehearsal, how to comment on music, and how to show things gesturally can make or break a composer when putting together a performance of their pieces. I believe this is an area where undergraduate Bachelor of Music programs in composition are not doing their students justice. To get a sense of what was going on around the country, I took a sampling of requirements for Bachelor of Music in Composition Curriculums throughout the country. I wanted to ensure my sampling of schools was diverse both in terms of the type of school and geographic location.

Using the Carnegie Classification of Institutions of Higher Education I chose use three schools from each of the following classifications: R1,R2, ( I did not find any R3 schools that offered the Bachelor of Music in Composition), Liberal Arts Colleges, and Special Four-Year:

Arts, Music, and Design School (These would be conservatories.)

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Next, I divided the United States into six regions:

New : Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New Hampshire, Vermont, Maine.

Mid-Atlantic: New York, New , Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Washington D.C.

Southeast: Virginia, West Virginia, Kentucky, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, Arkansas, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Georgia, Florida. Midwest: Michigan, North Dakota, South Dakota, Iowa, Minnesota, Kansas, Nebraska, Ohio Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin, Missouri. Southwest: Texas, Oklahoma, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, Nevada. Pacific: California, Oregon, Washington, Alaska, Hawaii.

With twelve schools, there would be two from each region. I randomized the list of regions, and then went to the larger lists of each kind of school. The first school from the regions that was next up on the list would be selected. If no school was found from that region, I skipped to the next region on the list. I then went to the school’s website and surveyed their curriculum requirements. If I could not find them, I would move to the next school on the list that was in the region. Here are my findings:

The first six schools grant the student a Bachelor of Music in Music Composition. University of South Carolina (R1, Southeast): Multiple upper level theory classes, upper level history and , one semester of basic conducting, no methods classes. University of Connecticut (R1, New England): Multiple upper level theory classes, upper level history and literature, one semester of basic conducting, no methods classes. Arizona State University (R1, Rocky Mountains): Multiple upper level theory classes, upper level history and literature, one semester of basic conducting, no methods classes. Lehigh University (R2, Mid-Atlantic): Twenty-five credits of music theory, nine credits of history, fourteen credits of composition, one semester of basic conducting, no methods classes. San Diego State University (R2, Pacific): The degree here was listed as Global Composition. Multiple upper level theory classes, upper level history and literature, one semester of basic conducting, no methods classes, eight semesters in a major ensemble.

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Ball State University (R2, Midwest): This institution offers two composition degrees: Instrumental and Vocal Concentration and Sonic Arts. I looked at the course plan for the Instrumental and Vocal degree. Multiple upper level theory, conducting and arranging classes. No conducting and no methods.

The next three schools grant the student a Bachelor of Arts in Music with a concentration or emphasis in composition. Converse College (Liberal Arts, Southwest): Multiple upper level theory classes, upper level history, no conducting, no methods. Connecticut College (Liberal Arts, New England): Not as heavy on upper level theory. Wide concentration on and courses, no conducting, no methods. Adams State University (Liberal Arts, Rocky Mountains): Upper level theory, no upper level history, one semester of basic conducing, no methods.

The last three schools grant the student a Bachelor of Music in Composition or an Undergraduate Diploma. Curtis Institute of Music (Conservatory, Mid-Atlantic): Offers both a Bachelors of Music Degree and Diploma. Heavy concentration on theory. One semester of conducting required for the Bachelor’s Degree, no methods. San Francisco Conservatory of Music (Conservatory, Pacific): Offers only a Bachelors of Music Degree. Heavy concentration on theory. One semester of conducting, no methods. University of Cincinnati College Conservatory of Music: Offers only a Bachelors of Music Degree. Heavy concentration on theory. One semester of conducting, no methods.

As seen, the results were fairly standard across the board. Almost always a lot of theory, commonly a lot of history, sometimes conducting, never methods classes. Similarly, as an undergraduate at the University of Rhode Island my composition degree required me to take four upper-level theory classes (form and analysis, counter-point, , and orchestration), an upper level history course, and only one semester of basic conducting. The theory and history classes were useful, and I enjoyed them, but I was not required to take any methods classes (choral or instrumental), advanced conducting, a secondary instrument, or participate in more than one ensemble for seven semesters. However, because I originally started

135 as a music education major before switching over completely to composition, I did take all those classes. I took three semesters of euphonium lessons, seven semesters of conducting lessons, and played in four to five different ensembles every semester I was in school. And that is where I truly feel I learned how to compose. That is where I felt my grasp of the craft came together and

I developed my understanding of how to go about writing music. The ensembles were where I had the opportunity to cultivate my love of working with other musicians, make connections, and learn how to collaborate. And it all went back to afterschool in my high school band room, looking at scores and trying out different instruments. That is where I realized how much I wanted to be a composer. Not reading an orchestration book, not working away on my laptop.

But rather where the music came to life. I attribute my success as a composer to being able to perform and conduct, and even more to loving to perform and conduct. Being a composer and conductor has shaped the way I see the power of music and the emotional power it can have. I began by calling this “Dichotomy of the Composer/Conductor” but a dichotomy is a contrast or a division between two things that are opposed or entirely different. Over the course of this research I have learned that the goal should not be to try to separate the two things but rather to embrace the connection between them. I believe this project has discussed in detail just how much composing and conducting inform and enhance one another and how big an advantage one has cultivating both skills. I hope this research can serve as an example and encourage more interdisciplinary work and learning in music higher education in order to continue to enhance students’ and teachers’ overall musicianship.

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Bibliography

Scott Boerma (Director of Bands, Western Michigan University), interviewed by Zachary Friedland in Kalamazoo, Michigan, June 2018. Kaitlin Bove (DMA Student, University of Kentucky), interviewed by Zachary Friedland in Lexington, Kentucky, July 2018. Andrew Boysen (Director of Bands, University of New Hampshire), interviewed by Zachary Friedland in Durham, New Hampshire, June 2018. Boysen, Andrew. Kirkpatrick Fanfare. Exon: Wingert-Jones Publications, 1999. Paul Brust (Professor of Composition, The Longy School of Music of Bard College), interviewed by Zachary Friedland in Cambridge, Massachusetts, July 2018. Lewis J. Buckley (Conductor, Metropolitan Wind Symphony), interviewed by Zachary Friedland in Salem, Connecticut, July 2018. Mark Camphouse (Director of Bands, George Mason University), interviewed by Zachary Friedland in Farifax, Virginia, June 2018. Roger Cichy (Freelance Composer), interviewed by Zachary Friedland in Scituate, Rhode Island, June 2018. Brianna Gatch (Director of Bands, Clover Hill High School), interviewed by Zachary Friedland in Midlothian, Virginia, July 2018. David Holsigner (Director of Bands, Lee University), interviewed by Zachary Friedland in Cleveland, Tennessee, June 2018. Michael Konnerth (School Teacher, Warwick Public Schools), interviewed by Zachary Friedland in Warwick, Rhode Island, July 2018. Leinsdorf, Erich. The Composers Advocate. New Haven: Yale University Press, 1981. David Leve (Adjunct Faculty, Schoolcraft College), interviewed by Zachary Friedland in Livonia, Michigan, June 2018. Timothy Mahr (Director of Bands, St. Olaf College), interviewed by Zachary Friedland in Northfield, Minnesota, June 2018.

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Mahr, Timothy. Fantasia in G. San Diego: Neil A. Kjos Music Company, 1983. Gene J. Pollart (Director of Bands, University of Rhode Island), interviewed by Zachary Friedland in Kingston, Rhode Island, June 2018. Reed, Alfred. Russian Christmas Music. Los Angeles: Alfred Music Publishing, 1944. Onsby Rose (DMA Student, The Ohio State University), interviewed by Zachary Friedland in Columbus, Ohio, July 2018. Schuller, Gunther. The Compleat Conductor. New York: Oxford University Press, 1997. Erika Svanoe (Director of Bands, Augsburg), interviewed by Zachary Friedland in Minneapolis, Minnesota, July 2018.

Erika Svanoe, “El Salón México by Aaron Copland: A Study and Comparison of the Orchestral Score and Two Transcriptions for Band.” DMA diss., The Ohio State University, 2009, OSU 1243886091. Jason Taurins (Director of Bands, Santa Cruz Valley Unified School District #35), interviewed by Zachary Friedland in Rio Rico, Arizona, June 2018. Ticheli, Frank. Cajun Folk Songs. Brooklyn: Manhattan Beach Music, 1992.

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Appendix A: Interview Transcriptions

Zachary Friedland Interview with Scott Boerma June 11th, 2018 Friedland: Before we begin, I just want to, once again, let you know this is a completely voluntary interview you’re free to stop at any time. Um, and I just want to know if I have your permission to use your actual name and quote you in the document. If anything you say, um, strikes me in particular. Boerma: Sure. F: Alrighty. Great. So we can get started. The first question that I have is just kind of, do you consider yourself more composer/conductor or conductor/composer? B: Conductor/Composer. F: Okay. B: I see my composing as a side thing. F: And uh, was, did you start doing, did you start conducting first? Were you composing before you started conducting? B: Yeah, I guess it probably started composing before anything was writing as a small child. My father was a band director and the music in our house all the time, but we had an old upright piano that is as far back as I can remember. I was just fascinated with different tunes and that taught me a couple of basic stuff. But I remember I still have an old piece of manuscript paper with the scribblings of a clearly preschool child. I'm like, I don't remember. It was called the echo song and it was just this silly little couple of notes that would then echo at a softer dynamic that I was very young and just was fascinated with the way cells work together and I just sit down for hours and experiment with different things. I started jotting things down. Um, by the time I was about fifth grade, I started playing the trombone in the band and by middle school I started dabbling with those two, um, and just kind of I got involved in band for heavily at the same time and conducts the arranging, kind of happened first and then they start posing in high school. So. And then of course I didn't really start conducting until late in high school. I was drum major of the marching band. So that kind of started that part of it probably my senior year of high school. So I started. I majored in music and conduct. F: Yeah, I can definitely original line of that, especially with the piano. I think that's always where it starts. It's great when you can just, you know, I think the reason that I'm so musically inclined is just being able to get on a piano at a very young age and just being able to work stuff out and hear things and so. All right, so when you are at a concert and you're listening from the audience, do you find yourself paying more attention to the compositional aspects of the music that strike you or evaluating the performance of the group?

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B: That's a hard one to write about. I'm always listening to just the compositional technique of a piece still play, but of course as you know, my main job is a helping us almost a play well. So I'm always thinking about those kinds of things as well. I, you know, probably, gosh, I don't know if I can away one above the other half of simultaneous. F: Yeah. Well you would, you say maybe it depends on the situation. I mean like obviously if you're adjudicating something, then you know. B: Yeah, I think it’s impossible to shut out your thinking about the, the orchestration and the composition of what. Especially if you're listening to somebody who does something like the whole suite and really glad million times, he knows my heart and so you tend to think less about what's happening there because you've heard it so many times, but helping move, it's hard to block that out and take that into consideration. Listening. Certainly I, I accept that when I'm putting a number down or rating down. Um, but, uh, yeah, I mean I figured sometimes you're in a situation where what you're supposed to be listening for the nation and we'll technique and musicianship and the kind of things that you tend to be more of those directions because of the job. F: Um, so the question I just asked you about what you pay attention to more, um, how does that apply if you're listening to a performance or a recording of one of your own compositions? B: Well, as a composer you're always hoping for, you're hoping for the perfect recording of the work that you wrote. Um, especially when the, you're just desperately to get that perfect recording so that you can share with others and hopefully more people play the music. So it's impossible to separate black that high d or so. Those folks certainly enter your, your, your, no listen, no, I'm now with, with a score written so many hours, so many days, something weeks with it, you know, it inside and out. There's nothing about the performance. It's going to be a surprise to you. So I guess I would tend to listen to how well is the ensemble piece to life in their, in their musicianship and their technique and accuracy and tone, quality, intonation always kind of thing. So yeah, I guess I said if I let her things that are probably listening more critically to the quality of the plant because I noticed these so well, there's nothing really to think about with that. F: Um, I really liked what you said about how, you know, as a composer we're always chasing that perfect performance and um, kinda goes to the heart of this project, which I'm kind of, this is something I've been thinking about for a very long time when I had my senior recital and Undergrad. Um, for the second half you'll have three band pieces and I can conducted them with the group. Um, and one of my professors, one of the band directors at URI Brian Cardany was playing French Horn in the ensemble. And so after one of the rehearsals I went up to him and said, you know, do you have any, any advice, you know, how do you think things went? Um, and he said, try to think more like the conductor, then the composer. Um, and that, those words have kind of always stuck with me and made me think about this dichotomy for a long time. So do you believe that, you know, especially in rehearsal, do you think there is a time to think like the composer and a time to think like the conductor? And if so, how were those thoughts different in your mind?

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B: I think by the time I get to rehearsal and stuff, so much time with school, he released the form, the peaks and valleys, the orchestration, all those details that make the top of this a lot is of course if it's living composer and their questions about an email away. And so I like that all the time trying to get inside what the composers and tech was the peace ever messed with my sample. I think by the time I get to that point, I've already decided what the, what the interpretation is going to be based on my research study. Um, and so that part of it is already within me and so my job is to make, it sounds like I hear it in my head. And so I think the majority of what my concerns are hersel are chipping away at it until the David shows up, you know, taking it and turning it into what I hear in my head based on the space. I think if I'm answering correctly by the time I get to the rehearsal process, it's more about the performance aspect of it. Of course, inherently you're always dealing with, with the students that the physician was like, so the emotional aspects that have come through your study, um, the, the musical that you believe is a piece comes through and just by the very nature of being human and being expressive and you being a conductor, um, but the majority of the focuses on making it sound good, like I hear it in my head based on my study. F: And do you prepare your own scores differently than you prepare other people's scores? And then I know you said that, you know, by the time you've, you spend so much time with the piece while you're composing, but do you find the score preparation is any different? B: I do find myself reminding process something that I know, it depends on whether it's a new piece or an old piece. If somebody happens to be a work of mine that I worked 10 years ago and asked me to come work with her, I'll, I'll definitely spend some time. Were you living at and bring myself back up to speed on it? Just like I would if I were going to conduct the Hindemith opening with somebody, even though I've conducted at several times in my life, I would, I would need to go back and just remind myself of the key points and then do a little space. Like I think I find it of the same as as anything else because obviously I know the work far better than any other new work I'd be conducting it. The process is far less time consuming, but I certainly want to remind myself of why I chose certainly potential release things, why I chose certain . I'm so that I'm able to convey that as quickly as possible and the rehearsal, but the, you know, the pieces already in my heart. I already know what, what it means. I already know what my interpretation is going to be because that developed during the composing process, you know that moist. When I'm composing, I'm always. You may already and you might get to more questioning later, but I'm always thinking about being the conductor to. I'm always thinking about the musicians. I started at the Public School Music Teacher for 12 years and so I taught fifth graders how to put their trombones together. So I'm also thinking about the, um, the um, while I'm writing, I'm thinking about the technical aspects of it based on what I then, what I know about all those instruments and some already kind of getting inside the what the worst could be. Like if I were to conduct it. I think I'm straying from your question. F: Does being a conductor affect the way you choose your range and balance and technical prowess and you know, even metrical groupings for meters. Um, and so yeah, it seems like, B: So yeah, it seems like, you know, what I was in high school and I was arranging marching bands, arrange for my dad and you know, and then I started getting gigs with other bands and I

141 of knew my dad would give me some pretty serious restrictions or whatever. Right above an, a for my first trumpet or don't ever buy holiday APP for, you know, whatever that is. He gave me some pretty strict guidelines and despite early on that a lot of band directors to say, ah, you can write anything micro up play anything. I would write anything and then they'd sell. So I learned pretty quickly to really gain an understanding through my. And of the realities are that maybe you've got a trumpet player, double g that probably sounds terrible right now, right? A level C or whatever that is, and that's a. just because somebody can do something doesn't mean it's the best decision to make it sound good. So I'm, I'm always thinking what that, that understanding it opposite at the keyboard and I'll, I'll figure through the clarinet and how does it go? Does it go back and forth over that break? Is there a way that I could like even for college players in a way that isn't harder than it has to be. It helped make this lay on the instrument. So I'm going to get a good performance element and no matter how strong enough, if you think you convey the same meetings without making it ridiculous, the same piece and make it sound awesome in the key of b flat instead of the major, why not do it? Who's going to know? F: And I agree, I've always, um, I, I don't like. I mean I like writing music that challenges the performer. Yeah. Especially, um, you know, for an educational setting. But I don't like writing music that is hard enough that it takes away the fun of the rehearsal and the performance side, you know, B: Never at any point in my fifty-four years on the earth and my 40 some years of composing, I've never ever had a, an ensemble conductor tell me this isnt challenging enough. Anything. It's always a little too far and I think I've gotten better and better for the year. So making it fit just right. Really understanding potential. The ensembles. And I asked a lot of questions from the conductor about specific strengths or weaknesses of the outside world. Yes. Chances are it's hard to write easy music. It's hard to write good. That's why so many bad pieces because it's possible the great composers that that's great ideas. It's impossible, nearly impossible if I can find a way to get your ideas across too hard here. F: Yeah. Um, and so, um, you know, you kind of, you talked about kind of how it's a process and with the experience. And so would you say your approach to composing and conducting for that matter? Um, what would you say it's changed, you know, would you say you would have different answers to these questions? You know, 20 years ago? B: I don't think I have different answers, left her true understanding ramifications of all of it. There's absolutely no substitute for experience and time, just the amount of time to do it. Um, the repetition and doing it over and over and learning from your mistakes and learning from your successes. There's just no way the most talented people and to their order worked quite as, as deep as their later works. That will still play quite as well as their later on. There's no way to get around that. And so I think I've already said I think I had the advantage of having a dad who was a band director that definitely happened, that customer had a lap band and jazz band. I left March band aid. Like some I wanted to write for something. He was gonna play it for me. So, and, and answer questions based on his expertise. Am I going with this? But I think, I think I understood it all these issues that we're talking about when I was young. Um, again, I don't, I don't know if I'd answer differently, but I certainly wouldn't understand his.

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F: So, this is kind of a loaded question, but would you say has being involved with the composing and the conducting has in any way accelerated, um, you know, the way you've developed a deeper and deeper understanding and you know, gained more and more experience as conductor? B: Say that one more time? F: Do you feel that because you were involved with both composing and conducting, have you do, do you feel like that has accelerated the way you've grown and the way you've developed a deeper understanding of the issues? B: You spend so much time. Some people spend their entire existence, conductor in the world and studying all the scores in the world. Well, we don't have that kind of prime existence in the world because we've got these writings were up that we got people waiting for projects that they've asked you to write. I'm that offer. And so I, I do find that I sometimes, boy, I devote enough time for sports study and devote enough time to really evaluating, evaluating my investing and things like that. But then again, because I'm a composer and an arranger, I can be the heart of a piece really fast. I study a piece and learn it really fast because I can look at a page and immediately be able to understand the orchestration that immediately the able to find the melody and counter melodies that are seeing the patterns so many times and I oftentimes my my wife has to remind us all the time. I often feel like I'm always complaining that they haven't spent enough time for studying the or filling in tomorrows rehearsal. Every time I get in front of the ensemble, I know the piece very well. There's never a time where I feel like I'm inadequately prepared and probably just because I can do it faster. The knowledge of composition and orchestration I could get to the heart of it faster than probably most people. Mangers is. As you start to forget that not everybody spends that much time with those details. You kind of assume like, I, I rediscover with my conducting students all the time, that things that appear obvious to me in a score are not obvious to them myself, that all these guys still compose. They have spent this time in these patterns and uh, so that makes me feel like, okay, well, yeah, I've got a shelf on those kinds of things. Um, so in, in many ways it's absolutely enhanced my conducting, rehearsing, directing aspect of my life, but also taking a lot of time away from that I might have spent on developing those skills on a higher level. F: Has your interpretation of your own music ever change by hearing someone else conduct it? B: I think the best answer is that I've heard people conduct and interpret it, interpret some things differently than I would have been fine with that. Typically I'm, however, I don't think it's ever changed my interpretation of it. The interpretation I start with is the same one I lived with for whatever reason. I don't think I've ever been convinced otherwise have something performance. But I certainly have rarely not approved of it, you know, because I do want conductors to, to make it their own. The thing where I, I think I'm kind of straying from the question of good here, but t sometimes I'll hear somebody interprets something and they'll take a liberty with something because it's an emotional choice. Something that for some reason they wanted to bring out a little bit more and this point and I applaud those kinds of decisions when it's clear that the conductor made a musical decisions in an effort to make it more impactful or be more personal to that

143 doctor, but I don't care for is the obvious times where the conductor is clearly not taking the time to study the score and least attempt the tempo markings that I've written. Sometimes I'll just hear something played. I'm like, you didn't even look at these temporal market decision. It's one thing to interpret something, but it's one thing to completely take a different tempo than the proposer asks for. And that I had one situation years ago where I'm a publishing company, was publishing a piece of it. Do you know the, they take all these pieces and put up through the mill and do these, this is fast as possible, make these recordings in a studio musicians and crank out a CD to send out for their promotional, um, new pieces that year kind of a thing. And there was one piece that came out as a temple is just completely different in English middle passage and I just thought it changed what the music was and I had that really bothered me because this standard recording of that piece out there that most people listen to when choosing their repertoire has this middle passage that's much slower than what was intended to be. And I, like I said, it changes me. It changes the meaning of the whole piece. Can you hold on one second? I'm on the phone now. So again, back to your original question that nobody's interpretation of something has altered my own of it at least so far. F: And so where do you believe the composer's job and, and the conductor's job begins? B: Can you a little bit more specific or what you're getting at? F: So at like, um, how, how would you define, how would you define Artistic license? At what point is it the conductor's job to make decisions about the piece versus straightly interpreting what's on the page. B: Really clear articulation whites and details, you know, a lot of older music means a lot to interpretation and aid. There's a lot of research that needs to good land about Bowtech's music and common practice about performing Mozart because now I'm a page. You don't see all those. For those who don't see the articulation, you don't see type of markings and so that, that gives the responsibility to the conductor to really side what really hopefully based on research what the composer. So tat was to buy and then make musical personal decisions on top of that. Also staying within the practice of that. But I think a lot of most newer music published music for self published music composers are more detailed about exactly what they want. You know, I think it's as a conductor, if I see specific things, and I'm going to stick to that because I know as a composer, but that composer has painstakingly put this information together because that is exactly what he or she wants and therefore it's my responsibility as a conductor can bring that alive and hopefully the conductor, there are opportunities, hopefully that piece of meat in it, that there, there are things that I can also make decisions about us conductor because we like to be able to have some more flexibility to make it something that we can stand behind seemingly connected to. Um, but I, I think it's a conductor's responsibility to stay as true as possible to the information that's composed of gifts and any stray from it should be for musical reasons or it should be for ways to maybe bring things to life in a way that only that conductor or that can do. I'll make it for themselves. I'm glad it better. F: Um, and so if you were conducting one of your own pieces, do you, is there, do you think there's a moment when you kind of stopped being the composer and begin being the conductor?

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B: It's hard to imagine it not happening simultaneously. It just goes together. You can never divorce yourself from the process are your notes, you're going to inherently interpreted in the way that you have trucks to the interpreter that composing it. F: Um, and so, um, you kind of already answered this, but I'd like to ask this anyway because it's been an interesting question. Could you ever conduct your own piece as if it were someone else's? B: No. Um, one thing I think that's fine, but because I spent so much time composing the piece, the will be emotional. I'm emotional aspects of it, you know, when we're dabbling with ideas and you run across a little robotic shift or a cool little melody that, that intersects with a family and use those moments are exhilarating. It was your, where you have these Aha moments. All yeah, I want to do that. They incorporate that, you know, the excitement of the compositional process, you know, as well as I do that 99 percent of composing is, is, is luxury a lot of just like your mechanics, just putting all these together, make it your rugs. Okay. F: Just the, just the manual labor of just putting it in writing every single day. B: Yeah. I love these movies where they show these composers in these fits of passion. No, that's not reality. And so by the time you're done, you hand over that piece. There isn't, there's no surprise. There's so corner on, you know, you've seen both coming around every corner and so there's, there's no, it's possible to truly feel emotional about it anymore. But at least for me, I'm speaking of course for me, I know I've got several pieces that are, for some reason I've been asked to write three or four pieces in memory of people who have passed and I'm just kind of pretty emotional stuff in there. I've heard it so many times in my head that it's hard to feel emotional about it either when we're conducting it. And that's, I guess I, I, I almost prefer conducting other people's music because it's fresh to me. It's more, the surprises are more fulfilling. Even though I studied this store, I know what's coming around the corner. I haven't experienced that in my head that I'm sick of it. Um, so generally speaking, I guess I, this wasn't exactly your question, but in many ways the rabbits stuffed other people's music because easier to little more emotionally connected to it because I spent so much time putting it all together that's not, don't have times when I'm thrilled to be conducting my music. I mean to conducted a piece of mine with the group. I'm a wonderful experience. But again, I don't know if it was musically be conducting other people's news. F: That's interesting. B: The amount of time I've spent with it F: I’ve really kind of, this is kind of the opposite side of things. Um, over time I've really gotten to the point where I almost like, I mean I still love conducting my own music but gotten to the point where I like in just as much to get to see another conductor conduct my music because I loved, you know, kind of seeing what they do with it and seeing how they think about it. Um, and like you said, that element of surprise, there's always kind of, you know, it. It's uh, it's like when you say things need fresh leadership and fresh ideas, you know, it's kind of skipping the piece, you know, fresh ideas and new leadership and everything. So, um, and so you, you

145 addressed this a little bit. Um, are there any other particular challenges that you find in conducting your own music? B: I tend to be more disappointed when things don't go well, but I know every single looking crazy on a piece that I tend to, I tend to be more frustrated when, when for one reason or another, the musicians don't make it happen. Like I like it to. So I find rehearsing my music to be more frustrating because I know I have a personal, a personal relationship with it and I want it to be perfect. F: And would you say, I mean because I'm reminded again of when Brian said, you know, think more like the conductor than the composer. Um, do you think that, you know, that challenge of, you know, striving for perfection with your own music because you know exactly how it goes. Do you think, um, that ever, you know, when you're in that moment, do you, do you feel more like the composer? Do you feel more like the conductor? B: At what moment? F: Like when you're striving for perfection in your own music, would, do you feel more like the composer in that moment or more like the conductor? B: When I'm composing or when I’m condcuting? F: When you're, when you're conducting your own music and you and you're striving for that perfect performance, B: I'm thinking more like the conductor at that point. F: You still thinking like the conductor, Okay. B: I want people to hear the piece as it was meant to be. F: And are there things that you in particular that you love about conducting your own music? Yeah. B: Oh God. F: Yeah. Not even like. So is there like a couple of things that you love the most about it? B: I love that I, I know it so well that I don't have my head in the school very often. I love that I'm able to be more directly in touch with the music because I, I know it so well and again like I know all my well but no, I truly know my scores that exceptionally well. So I feel like I'm a little bit more divorced from the page. Um, and I can be more present with the students or the musicians. Um, I think there's a, you know, depending on the age group, especially if I'm working with high school kids, um, there's a mystique for them to have composer of the music standing up in front of them. I kind of, I kind of enjoy that because I, it gives me the opportunity to just speak, not to just speak as the conductor, the director, but I can also talk about the different ideas and why our number was what inspired me to write this moment or this moment comes from this or I did this because I like how this core shifts from the piano kind of demonstrate those things. I enjoy that process of, of, um, the educational aspect of it looks like

146 students in that. I, that I'm unusual in that I can share that differently than their band director 10 just because I wrote the piece is not something that they, they experienced most of the time. If ever I kind of enjoy that aspect of the musicians in front of you inherently know that or this person really knows this piece and it's going to give me some firsthand knowledge and interpretation of how it's really supposed to go. Also, when the permission to write a piece for a specific school band and you go there and you work with them and that's a, that's an exciting culmination of a process and they know that you spent all these hours putting this music to get them specifically. Um, there's something exhilarating about that. Even at the university level, they know just like, and this wasn't a composition of sorts that I just know that fast. The University of songs, Steve Peter says there's somebody 150th anniversary of the university. And so I liked this. This needs to incorporate the and um, you know, the students just for you could just tell that they were just digging it because it's, it's so unique to them, their school, their songs. But I, you know, I did all these crazy things with them. And so every time you turn the corner, there's an unexpected treatment of this too. And that's when you're, you've asked to do something that's personal for the musicians. Um, and that they get to realize that, bring it to life, there is some thrill in that. F: That's an experience. I think everyone should have to get to work with a composer, no matter if they're going to be, you know, in school, no matter if they're going to be a music major, if they're just in high school band because they liked doing it. I think everyone should get to meet all living composer once and get to play. B No matter how many times you do it, it’s always a unique experience to have them come in and listen to a rehearsal or two. And what are their reactions and thoughts to the music that we saw in our hours and hours studying for hours and hours preparing it. My experiences are always positive, but typically composers then very much like, oh, wow, gets sound great. I wrote the amount of time you've obviously spent on this, but there are always things that the composer for that or different little bit different than what you thought it was supposed to be. No matter how many times you do it, there's always something that I really hoped that this, this line would come out more. And last year we commissioned to write a new piece for us. And the love of state. And so there's this melody, (sings melody), all dotted rhythms and you know, to me just seemed to be very pointed (sings melody). And, and he came in and they really wanted was a more broad, (sings melody), you know, and there's nothing. We weren't separated or anyting. We were just playing it more, kind of pompous and lifted and he wanted something more broad. And we talked, we talked for, you know, sale conversations in the three days he was with us about how could he, how notate that in a score to make it more clear. And we're like, well, we could put to noodle lines over the notes. He said, I don't want it to go. I don't want it look at. So I don't want it rude. I still want punctuated by the want to broad. And we're trying to think of all these different words that might get it. Never found the perfect solution for something like that. And then we would have never come up with posters interpretation about it. But there's always something like that that comes up in those meetings. And so in agreement, a agreement with you, the more opportunities that, that position to work with the actual posters, just, it's, it's, there's no substitute support.

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F: Yeah, it was so funny. I did a piece, um, I don't know if you've ever heard of Frank Gulino.

B:Yes.

F: Yeah. Um, I, I did a piece of his, I did Skyline with the, um, the uh, OSU university band last semester and there's this little trombone line that's just like one bar and I always interbred when I would look at the score and I look at the structure of everything that was going on there. I always just kind of saw it as kind of like this background, you know, kind of compliment to what else was going on. And when he skyped into rehearsal he said, oh, let's, you know, he said, I know this is dangerous, but trombones really bring out that line there. And it just, it gave it, gave that moment so much character that, you know. Um, so it was, it was really cool. I want to talk a little bit about, uh, programming. Um, does being a composer, um, affect the way you program? B: I think it affects everything I do to a certain degree. I'm trying to think of a specific. We're always trying to think about what we're starting to think about our audience and how long is too long to sustain this idea was too short to sustain this idea. How do we make the drama? Stick with it for a while. Have we know when it's time to move on and go to a faster tempo or slower tempo or louder or softer or always thinking of, of those types of things? So I guess inherently that will affect how we perceive music and that we want the same kinds of attention span and variety. Oh, as the new music being composers ourselves, we want to hear the music, but we probably want to hear more new music than our audience does. And so I was trying to keep that in mind and um, make sure I've always got a tasty tidbits of things that they could immediately appreciate addition to the newest piece. That might not be something that they. Yeah, I think just the. Because the pursuit of pasting they are composing certainly affects the decisions we're make with the patient in our program. I, you know, personally, I, I, I'm already, I always battle a little bit with, with programming my own music. I looked back to jobs to go. I was the director of bands at Eastern Michigan University and I did several of my works with them mainly because we were hired to be the recording bands for the company and I was, they were published a bunch of things at the time and so we did some recordings of my works for their, um, the natural remedies. And so it was kind of giving my students the experience of being in, in recording sessions and being a part of a process of getting your music out there. And a lot of it happened to be my music. Um, and that seems like a positive experience now at western Michigan University for five years. And I haven't programmed a single piece of mine. And I guess I'm kind of feels that one, it's going to be the perfect piece to fit a program. And for some reason that's not happened yet, um, to, I don't want to self promote too much with my students, especially at first I, I kind of thought without telling her stuff out loud, I told myself that probably the first four years I'm here, let's just, let's just not push that aspect of me. Let's push the conductor, director of bands aspect at me for a few years until we get used to that and everybody gets comfortable with each other, then I'll start slipping in a piece of my hair and there, um, which is, I think I'm actually a program, one of my thesis next year. Um, I'm diverting from your original question, but I'm also thinking where does my music fit into the scheme of everything, of the Diet that I've, for my students.

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F: Definitely interesting stuff. When you look at scores for the first time, you talked about earlier how just being a composer, you're kind of helps you see those patterns right away and kind of dig into the scores. Um, but do you find that, you know, when you first look at the score or do you start evaluating the composition right away or do you immediately just kind of think, okay, what challenges will this pose for my group? How is this going to help my group? You know, how's this gonna you know, like you said, fit well into a concert simultaneously. B: Are you asking it once? I've already chosen to program something that I started with? F: Like the first time you look at the score. B: Oh, okay it's possible for me not to. They critically of the piece, but I'm looking at it can't just be thinking about how well I need a fast concert opener. Here's one I have to say I a fast concert opener. Um, which of these five have the compositional stuff that I feel I can, um, organically whoa in front of my students because you really have to believe that everything is impossible to believe that everything he conduct for most of the things that you program for your students, you all love and respect because that's going to come out in your reversals and in your performances. So it's a waste of time and there might be some piece that everybody seems to replay. And I remember as a high school band director, there was a piece that universities, the high schools all over piece, it's like such a popular piece. And I, and I said, well, I guess we should do it. And I committed to doing it. And the more time I spent with it, the more I just didn't, like, it just didn't speak to me. I didn't respect it as a composition. Um, then come to find out my students didn't care for it that much either because they could probably sense that I wasn't thrilled about it. Um, so I think it's a, it's a waste of anybody's time to pick something that you inherently respect. Um, so yeah, as I'm studying, as I'm considering have also evaluating my impression of the, of warmth and depth, you know, as a college band director, I've been involved in consortiums to help composers writing music all the time. I'm on a list of 20 vans, higher composer, a composer, composer to write a new work. And what happens is you don't know what that work's going to be until you get it. And then you've got one year of exclusivity that you can say your odd sound that'd be boring. And you know, I have to say two thirds of the time I don't fall in love with the piece and the planet. It's nothing against the composer with there's a reason that the composer was chosen to write the piece, but not every composer writes something that's going to connect with everybody, every guy. And you never know until you get it. Whether it's something that really want this program perfectly someplace or to you think is just spending five weeks out. You know? Well, I think it's the same. F: Just the last little thing is, um, when you are giving someone a composition lesson, does being a conductor affect the way that you critique their piece? B: Absolutely. Because I mean, he says nothing. It's never going to be performed well. Nobody's said away. So I can. I saved students a lot of time by just saying, you can't do this because it never felt good about it. You know, if they spend more time on the instruments away, rain doesn't lay well the fingers, there's no logic to it. Find a different way to express the same idea and make it playful. It's not just about the difficulty is that it's about this rage. Proper cells like this way to traumatized like this rate for the trumpet, oral side of a moment and pick this and

149 submit for that. It's sad. So those kinds of things come into play all the time and they're not, you know, there are ways of. I think students get an idea and they just can't let it go. And the art is to find a way to express the same idea, make it work. In a different way that's going to realize what you want to sell like otherwise you're going to be disappointed every time somebody tries to pull that off. It's never going to sound good. F: Before we wrap up, I mean, did you have. Do you have any other thoughts on, you know, mainly just any other ways that you believe being a composer and conductor has enhanced both skills B: Score study without question. I believe I get to the heart of a piece more initially than I would if I were not a composer as an orchestrator or arranger. Same kind of thing I said I can. I can understand the scores makeup and understand immediately what things might need my assistance from about standpoint. I see. I see something here that appears to be an important little poudre valley, but it's underscored or maybe a nowadays over scored. So I got to be able to make adjustments quickly in my preparation to make sure that the composers it is realized, oh, because not all composers are great orchestrators and so as somebody I think on the straighter than I am a composer, so I'm able to really get to the heart of that aspect of it pretty efficiently. Um, Harris, hope everybody does, but I haven't been the hair for the composer because. So why would I go about some these music so me not something to take lightly to me. I thought to do this justice and do whatever I can to realize with the cell sample what the composer intended. Um, and I think that just gives me a. I didn't hear it. I have that appreciation for what the notes are in front of me because I ended up on this person worked on the side. They'll call this person oil over this for so many hours and I'm just going to it lightly. Um, follow up about what things work. I add that, yeah, I've also alluded to earlier today that um, composing and arranging it takes a lot of time. It's a lot of time that may be, I could be studying stores or reviewing videotapes or practicing gestures or listening to new repertoire, um, a tangle with. I'm going to more concerts. I have less time to devote to the craft of investing because I'm always composing, arranging. So I do feel often that, you know, pretty good know I've made a pretty successful life out of both. Could I get better from doctorate? Sure. But I'd be a better composer, absolutely. Um, if I focused on one or the other, either that one or the other. And so it's hard. I think it's satisfying to me. I can't imagine living without one of them. There was a time when I was a high school band director or white. It was, I was killing myself. I teach all day and I'd have sectionals after school and sometimes have rehearsals or practice at night. I'd come home at dinner with my wife and I go to the piano and write until two in the morning and get up at five and started to build is still explain that I've been teaching for 12 years, but my composing and we're getting to a point where it was a full time job. I was making more money proposing an arrangement that I was teaching. I was teaching a pretty respectable school, but she convinced me that you got, you gotta focus on one or the other and see if maybe the composing/arranging thing is the thing because he can't keep doing each at the same level and she wisely to request a leave of absence from my high school band director job and they will kind of grants. They will take a year. Just explore writing if that's really what I want to do for the rest of my life. And I realized very quickly that I loved the flexibility of schedule. I love putting out a pot of coffee in the morning when I got up and posing for the rest of the day. Um, but I miss the humans, I miss the interacting with, with the

150 musicians and the physical aspect of communicating in that thing, and I didn't take long to realize that now I can't just composed as composing, composing. It's very satisfying as you know, the performance happens.

F: Yes.

B: But it’s Hard work and sometimes it’s boring. F: Exactly, I don't want to remember all the hours I spent on my laptop. I don’t compose for myself. It's the sharing that, you know, getting to share the music with my colleagues and then with an audience. B: And that's a small part of it. So I know I couldn't live without the, the actual music making each day. And so that's what inspired me to get my doctorate and pursue the university conducting realm because the schedule is the university conductors. So it's less busy. It's more flexible than being a high school band director where you're task every moment of their food costs, cuffs and no place to breathe. At least with conducting at the university level. I can shift my schedule around to make it work, the swells and by the belt. I'm always trying to find that balance. F: Thank you very much.

151

Zachary Friedland Interview with Kaitlin Bove July 26th, 2018

Friedland: Want to make sure you know, this is completely voluntary and um, if you just wanna make sure it's okay to use your name if I don't want to quote you on anything. Bove: Totally. Awesome. So the first thing I usually ask people when to do this, as I say, do you consider yourself more a composer/conductor or conductor/composer. Um, and so I would definitely go more towards conductor to conductor/composer. But you're kind of in an interesting position with your, uh, dissertation projects. I don't know if you kind of want to talk about your composing experience and Kinda tell us about that project that you're working on. B: Yeah, sure. So like leading up to it or just specifically that, F: um, both, just anything you've done before and then exactly what the project is. B: Um, so like I've always just been pretty much a band nerd. So like, my first composition experiences were like, um, high school writing like pep band charts for our high school pep band and then take taking AP music theory in high school and just like, you know, wrote for like the requirements for that, like would compose a piece and had performed and then moving on to college I did music education. So again, all my stuff was like, you know, arranging for class assignments or pep band a lot of that. Um, then I taught middle school and high school for a total of seven years. Um, and again, it was a lot of arranging. So trying to, um, you know, if I was coming up with a concert theme, um, and I was like, oh, this is the perfect tune, but there's not like a, a band arrangement or an arrangement for that. Then I would write it out for the kids or my simplify something that was already written for, for my age range because I was dealing with beginners through like high schoolers. Um, and then I started composing and um, that again was mostly for my own students. So it wasn't something where I was like going out and trying to be a commercial composer. I wasn't taking commissions as much, it was more like we, you know, our staff came up with an idea of like, okay, this is what we want to do for this marching band show or like here's a, you know, something I want to do in my doesn't exist. So then I would just write it. And so it was all about that for the most part with the original compositions. Um, and then, yeah, so what I'm doing now is for my dissertation project and my conducting recital is um, I've always loved arranging like I said, and transcribing. Um, and that's, I love that more than I'm composing outright because I don't feel like with my, um, my music education background and conducting background in my schedule that I have a lot of space in my schedule to make time for like actual, like legitimately composing when I have like a deadline and a goal to set, then I can turn something out. But just in terms of like having an idea and then being able to spend time with that, I never like, I have this whole list of ideas of things I'd love to write and I just don't make the time for it. But I do love arranging and I feel like in transcribing and I feel that's something that's a little bit more structured so that I can fit that into how my schedule works already. So when I came up with the idea for my project, I, um, I had three things in mind. One is that I wanted to transcribe because I love transcribing. I feel like

152 the band world takes, um, like new compositions. And then also new transcriptions really seriously unlike a lot of maybe other ensembles. Um, I wanted to do something, um, by a female composer because I'm a woman and I feel like I haven't really in my experiences, you know, gotten to work with a lot of women in the profession before. So I thought that would just be a great way for, even if it's, if it was a woman who has no longer living, just to be able to like kind of get into her head space and feel like I connected with somebody else in the profession that is a woman because we are kind of islands, like even when women are being really successful, they're just all still kind of surrounded by men. So like part of me was just being like I wanted to have that connection. And then the third thing was my hope was to find a woman outside of the band, um, genre who hadn't written anything for bands yet, so that if she was still living and I did a good job with her piece that maybe that would encourage her to be like, oh, that's what my music sounds like in this genre. And then maybe it got successful and maybe she'd consider writing new music for me. And so I started researching around. I listened for a few weeks and I just wasn't really settling in on anything. A lot of new music out there being written by women composers. It's super avant garde and doesn't necessarily translate well to band and so things that I liked, I was like lit, just not going to work, that's not going to work. And then one of my friends told me like, well why don't you look at the Pulitzer Prize winners, like just go online, find out who is a Pulitzer Prize winning female musician in the last, you know, decade or whatever. And so I went on that list and I wrote down every piece that was either a winner or a runner up and um, I went and I just listened to all of them in the first time I heard Patina by Carolyn Shaw. I was just like, Yep, that's it. But then I wasn't sure. So I like, I like moved it over to my like, Yep, that's it pile. And I kept listening and I like sat around for a couple of weeks after. I'm like, no, that was it. So I just made my mind up there on the spot. So I emailed her and she was just super, like, excited about the project off the top of her head. Like she had said that other people have approached her about transcribing, arranging that piece for different ensembles and she's never given permission before. But she thought like when I said, oh, what about for band? She was like, oh yeah, it kind of is a wind ensemble piece. I could totally see that working in. So she gave me the permission, she sent me some personalities files, which was really awesome because I mean not like every single little bit of it, like, you know, she still kept some of the stuff to herself, which is totally fine, but that was really exciting. And then we've interviewed and I've run a lot of ideas past her already. I'll still collecting more ideas to keep running past her, but that's been a really cool process and I'm excited about just where it's going to go and how it's going to get finished point. F: When did conducting come in as far as like when, when you started seriously studying? Conducting? B: Oh um, so I, so I did my undergrad in Music Ed. I did my master's in Music Ed and I did my master's at a place where they didn't have any doctoral program, so masters was kind of like, were you a peaked? And honestly when I got that degree I was like, I'm done. I never have to go back to school. And I went back to my same teaching placement where I had gone before my masters and stayed there another four years. So that was out of my total of seven and my, my final year, my fourth year there, um, is kind of messed up. I had a weird doing a marching season. I had written the music for the show. I had written the drill for the show. I was like

153 making costumes. I like, like everyone was just super onboard that you're all the staff, the parents, the kids. We just had a really clean, successful, awesome, really fun year and we kept winning every competition and we like took state and by the end of the year. And I remember thinking to myself like, this is supposed to be like, this is supposed to be it, right? Like this is like a pinnacle thing that like I'm supposed to feel like I have arrived and instead I just kind of felt like empty and hollow and like I put in a lot of work and I didn't feel like I'm not saying like I didn't get out. Like, like, oh I'm not getting enough out of this, but it just didn't like what it felt like when I finally like got to that plateau was like didn't feel like anything. So I was like, I got to get out of this. This is not enough. And so I resigned from that position at the end of the school year and wanted to go back into, go back to school to do my doctorate and I hadn't decided if I want to do music ed or conducting. And so I started looking into those music ed is all about like researching and conducting case studies and getting published. And I was like, I could do that, but it sounds really boring. And conducting is really just being a band director at the collegiate level. But then also like you get to do a lot of that studying stuff, you get to shape the profession, you get to shape young teachers coming into the profession, you get to choose literature that really is, I think, more impactful at, at that level than, than necessarily the middle school level. So, um, all of that was what I found attracted. So I really only been focusing on conducting for like the last two years. So I feel like a little bit behind, like so many people have like done like way more steps than I have to like get themselves into this position and I kind of just showed up and jumped in. I'm like, okay, I'll learn it all right now. But I'm a quick learner and I'm, you know, I really focus on the things I'm doing. So yeah, it's only been recent but I learned so much and I feel really good about that choice. F: Awesome. Awesome. Um, would you say as you've done all this stuff, how do you feel that your experience in the classroom and teacher a new probably in there as well. How do you feel that had informed your composing and arranging? B: That's a super good question. So actually I'm working on like right behind your video screen right here is an arrangement I working on for the wildcat marching band here at UK. And so I, you know, I have friends that are more composers and like they're only composers, like I'm like I'm friends with John Mackey and you know, he'll talk about what he's writing and he's not a musician. And so what's funny about, sorry, my lights going on here. What's funny about him is he'll write something and he like doesn't, he doesn't care, but he just doesn't really get if like they're going to play it differently than that or if it's going to be hard or not. He's just like, they'll figure it out. Right. And I feel like I'm coming from a place of like I know exactly from having been in the classroom so much have it, having worked with kids from beginner middle school, high school now collegiate level, like where they're at, how they're going to interpret something and depending on their age level too, that'll change. So I might, right, I might write the same line of music that's playable by a middle school kid and a college kid and right the, um, articulations totally differently to get what I want out of them just because I know someone can handle it here versus here. And it's like, well, what do I want? So what information do I have to tell them at each level? So I think about that kind of stuff. Um, when I'm writing. Uh, what else? Yeah, I, um, I think it's kind of, it's tricky because sometimes I think that the struggles on those various instruments does inform like what I might put on apart, which maybe then, you know, I might

154 give them something that's not like too easy, but I might like not trying to take as many risks as let's say a composer that isn't an educator and isn't a conductor would take because I'm like, oh, well bassoons like that high range just could be so out of tune. And one, I've played bassoon before I played bassoon in a community band. So it's like I noticed how hard it is to work on the instrument. And the read and like the, you know, everything like that. And so I might just be like, Ooh, I don't want to put them up in the high range too much. So I'll, I'll make it work down here. Even if in my ear I really wanted to hear them up high, you know. So like with my transcription, um, I'm going to premiere it with our top band here. So it's like they're going to be able to play anything. So I will put whatever out them. It's like they're going to figure that out. I also know I'm going to be able to do like a reading session with them and fix some stuff. Whereas the marching band, we don't have time for reading session. Like we're going to rehearse it and learn this piece in one day. We've got engineering majors and English majors and math majors in the band who were just playing their instrument for fun and they're only getting marching band rehearsal. Um, so I would approach those two pieces differently too. So to me it's really about educationally how long do we have in the rehearsal process? How quickly does this need to get put together? What's the point of the performance? So I'll gauge like the information I put on the score and I'm the difficult to get difficulty level I'll choose to write for, for that ensemble, even though it's technically like the same players and a lot of cases it makes sense. F: Yeah. Yeah. So when you were at a concert and you're listening to a piece of music, do you find yourself listening more to the compositional aspects of the piece or evaluating the performance of the group?

B: That's a really good question. Um, I would say the better the group is, the more I listened to the piece and then the more struggles the group is having. Then the more I realize I noticed the group, but now that I have like I've been a conducting student for a couple of years now and I've made a lot of friends who are composers and I've kind of learned about what their process is like when I start to judge at now like so for instance, again, if it's they're really great group and they're playing the piece and everything's going smoothly, then I'm just like, oh great. This piece, I'm all about the piece and the minute that that level of performance ability starts to drop off. Now I realize now more than before I'm making judgments. Is it the composers fall? Like did they not write this piece well or does the group maybe not placed so well? So like if like for instance if a kid plays a solo or like, you know, let's say they're adults who whenever I'm just so used to like educational groups, right? Someone plays a solo and they just, they're watching it. It's like, okay, well I'm listening to like how is that line? Is that idiomatic for their instrument? Was that the composer? Well, could they have done something differently to make that line more successful? And if that's not the case then yeah, now I'm going to blame the kid, but I'm realizing that's kind of my bottom line thing. Like I'm way more, I'm understanding, I think of like the student's experience because I'm coming from the educational background where it's like, it's not the students' fault because first of all the piece could just have something wrong with it. If the piece has something wrong with it, the conductor should not have picked that piece. If the conductor pick that piece and saw this kid was like having a problem, they should have done something about it. They should've made the kid do something about it. You know what I mean? Like I'm very forgiving of, I think of the, of the performers in that way.

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F: And, and does your question change when you're listening to like a reading of one of your own ? Um, do you, did you do that? Does it come across as like, dude, do more of a self evaluation or are you still kind of focusing on? B: Um, last year we met with them with the marching band. Um, so again, I'm coming from like middle school high school and um, my undergrad and master's programs were at a school without a marching band and we had a pep band but it was like a 40 5:50 percent pep band. It's like a big jazz band. I had never worked before with a 200 person marching band and you have to write differently for them. But no one had really told me that. And so, you know, it was a little bit my fault, but the first arrangement I threw out at this, the band, uh, Kentucky, the marching band, uh, Kentucky last year, what worked really well for a 50 person, that band, but with the marching band and the size and just like their, their, their ability levels across the board, like it just didn't fly. And so, you know, getting in a situation like that with the reading session is super nerve wracking because I always just want them to go, well the first time. But yeah, my first assumption is going to be make sure they understand what I want because you know, there's interpretation and everything like that. So like more her said and, but if within that first rehearsal like it's just not clicking, I'm going to blame myself, which would, that piece like that was totally my fault. I didn't write for a 200 person marching band, which I've learned now and I'm doing that, um, you know, but like, and again it's at different levels. So like with the college band, it's like we should be able to put this together in one rehearsal and if we can't then I'm going to blame myself with my middle school group if I wrote something for them. I mean I've got a two, maybe two and a half month concert arc to rehearse too. And so we don't get, I mean I'm going to teach in little pieces and so I'm, you know what I mean? Like, I'm going to be more forgiving of myself and also then because we have the time to rehearse it and we need that time to rehearse it and it's a learning process along the way. So, um, yeah, I will blame myself. Totally. And I read that piece that I wrote. I rewrote it for them and I brought it back the next week and I said, okay guys, this is the better version. And it was, it was totally better. Um, but yeah, that's, that's how I would answer it is just kind of depends on what the goal again is have that piece in that learning cycle. F: Um, so when you were doing all these arrangements, did you conduct a lot of them on your own or. Okay, so you can think about this in terms of the arrangement that you've conducted and also kind of thinking hypothetically about when you conduct your arrangement, the Partita uh, what are the differences between preparing your own score and preparing someone else's score? B: That's a good question. Um, I think that preparing my own score, I do a lot of the prep work when I'm writing it right. So like I choose like I'm going to put this part or I'm going to put this harmony or add because sometimes I'll have to create new parts, like the arrangement I'm working on right now is super, super basic as a pop song, so I've added a ton of, like little counterpoint to it and stuff because boring. Um, but so when I'm, when I'm writing that and I'm coming up with in my head that's, that's my score. Prep time is like what I'm coming up with. So when I get in front of the kids and then we're going to start rehearsing it. I mean off the top of my head and now I might not remember like the, the letter number, like the rehearsal number like, oh at. But this happens because I just threw that in there last minute. Wasn't paying attention to

156 what's APP b, but I know everyone's part. I could sing everyone's part. I know exactly what it goes like. I have a little bit of photographic memory going on with that. So that takes care of itself when I'm score prepping myself, when I'm score prepping another piece, let's that, you know, I've just been handed the score and I'm like, okay, I'm going to teach this piece eventually, like that's a completely different thing that's coming, that's studying more like a book where I'm just like, I'm sitting and I'm staring and I'm learning the parts in my head. And I had been recently told that I went to a few conducting symposiums the summer, so I used to do a lot of listening to recordings while I was preparing scores, but I've been told that's not a good thing. So forward one conducting teacher that told me I could never listen to a recording once, go back and forth. But this summer I got, I got really good explanations why, like here's what you should do instead and here's why you shouldn't do it. I'm like, oh, okay. Now it's clicking. There's no one right answer to anything in music. It's art, but I think that's good when people like if they have a certain way of doing it, yeah. To back that up. And it's like, okay, yeah, you've totally convinced me. So studying a score where I'm, I'm coming into it and I have nothing to do with writing any part of it. Um, it, that is a very different process and I think when I get into that, my first focus is to try and figure out the intended, the composer of like, okay, so what's happening here? Why did you put that in there? And getting to know the score well enough that way. Then finally I can come up with some of my own opinions and decisions on it, which is going to influence my interpretation when I bring it out to the students. Um, one thing I know I'm good at is when I rehearse, I will, um, try to say quickly, I talk fast, but um, I will, you know, give a reason why we're doing certain things. Like, okay, we're gonna, change that and fix this and here's why. Blah, Blah real quick just in moving on and that all has to do with either my interpretation or the composer’s intent. I know the students do appreciate that because they feel like we're really like engaged in on the same page and everybody, nobody has to question like, well, why are we doing that? So that's a little dip and I find, I think I do that better and more than with my own compositions because that stuff's already in my head. So I don't feel like I have to put it out there. Yeah. F: Based on what you said about how you met, you get to a point where you make your own decisions and try to understand the compulsion to 10. I want to jump to question. I'd like to ask, where do you think the composer's job ends and the conductor's job begins? B: That's a good question. Um, I think like, I don't know that there's a hard set answer of like, right where that is because I think certain composers or certain styles, time periods or pieces even, um, like have more room. Like certain composers might put their piece out there and be like more open to interpretation. All others might be like, you should do it exactly how I've written it at, you know, quarter note equals 68 point five bpm. Um, and so I think that's their first. So first of all, I guess you'd have to determine how much, um, interpretation do you think that the composer wants and then you have to make a decision whether or not you care. Right? So like if there are, there are, there are. I'm really good conductors out there that just do their own thing and they're, they're good enough that they can kind of get away with it even when they are pretty upsetting the composer about how they're interpreting their piece. So I guess the next question would be like, once you determine how much interpretation that composed prefer you decide, do you meet them there? Maybe you want to give them even more of their own intention

157 than they care about. Maybe you don't care so much. As me being a student still, um, a couple years in, I'm, I feel like I'm trying really what they wanted. So, um, last semester I did on John Mackey's him to a blue hour because he was going to be a resident at our school for that concert and so I wanted to do a piece while he was there so he could work with me and with the band. And so how I prepared that piece is I, um, I first went to him, I talked to him about like, okay, you're coming in. I know we're playing first and cathedral because that, you know, my director is conducting that, what should I do? And we're talking about pieces back and forth. I'm like, I want to do him. And he's like, I hate when people do him. No one ever does it right. And I'm like, well, it sounds like a good challenge. So we talked about what he means by like, no, no one ever does it. Right. And you talked about really hard parts that he had written where you that like, oh, that horn part so hard and no one ever gets my tempo is right and this, that and the other. And um, so I asked about, um, North Carolina, Greensboro [inaudible] on his website, North Carolina. Greensboro is um, his definitive recording when you go into John's website, that's the recording he's posted. I'm like, here's my piece is what it sounds like. So I asked them like, okay, well this is a version you clearly like, right? And he's like, yeah, I mean a lot of people have done it before. But like the way that Kevin Giraldi does it is my absolute favorite way of doing it. So then I went to Kevin, Gerald, the Midwest and I said, can I sit down and buy you a coffee and talk about like how you prepared that and your interpretation. So I went through, Kevin drove it and the reason I was doing that and for one made me feel super comfortable after that. But, but secondly, it was like John has an interpretation that Kevin has been able to realize the best. So if I want to do a good job I should talk to Kevin because I can't because John will help me. John's not a composer, so Kevin talked me through like, just like, you know, his um, preparation of it, his strategy because they, they didn't, um, premier, but they are one of the first early groups that did it. So he didn't really have like another interpretation to go off of when he was preparing it. So he talked me through his preparations and some of the choices that he made and like some of the things he does on his recording because I listened to that a bunch beforehand because I was still listening to recordings a bunch by them. Um, and I was like, oh well, like, you know, at this point you added a role in Tondo and there's not one of the score where you kind of made this tomato here or like you, like this one part is supposed to be in for four, but you're doing it in like eight for like you made each of these quarter notes, half note. What was your choice process there? Do you remember working with John and like having responded and like, so all this stuff and so came up with kind of just like where he came from and then I went home and prepped it and then eventually I knew the piece well enough that I got away from recordings and I just did my own thing and I know it wasn't like I wasn't trying to go for a carbon copy of what Greensboro did, but I was just, I was using that as like a basis of like this is what the composer wanted because I can, I can hear that and I can get communicate with someone about that. And then from there I can draw my own interpretation. So I can't do that with every piece, obviously. I mean I was, I was a grad student so I was only working on one piece at a time. If I had a whole concert said to prepare, I wouldn't have been able to do that. Um, but I did get to work with like, you know, the definitive recording, compose a conductor. I got to work with the composer. He was there for a rehearsal. So he tweaked a couple things too, like just mostly balanced up. Like he brought out like, oh, I want more of that and this and whatever. But for the most part, like I, I did it the way he wanted to already because I had done that prep work ahead of time.

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F: Awesome. Awesome. Going back a little back, a little, I know you mentioned that sometimes you find it harder to, when is your music? It's harder in rehearsal to communicate your intentions because you think, oh, I know exactly how it's supposed to sound. Um, so do you find that you rehearse your own music any differently than others? B: Um, that might be just like a psychological thing of like, I feel like when you're rehearsing somebody else's music, that's what you're doing usually for the most part, like 99 percent of the music you're going to do is not something you wrote. So there's a little bit of a disc, like some space I would say there's some space there, so you can always blame the composer or the bag. I don't be blaming. That goes through space. It's not your baby, it's not your work. So you're not so like emotionally connected to it as you would your own piece. And we interpretation of it. Like you can present it. This is my interpretation. I don't have to be right. You just have to. We just all have to be on the same page of my interpretation. That's why I'm here. I'm the conductor. When it becomes your piece of music, especially me not being like a fulltime composer because I'm a full time conductor and I composed very little, it's maybe just a little bit more nerve wracking and emotional of like, oh, this is my music. So um, you know, I don't know. It's like, oh, if someone doesn't like it or someone says it doesn't work, like, Ooh, like this does that hurt me personally. Like, and then it was just me being sensitive, but so I feel like a little more, I guess nervous about being like the composers content because I'm just saying my intent like that feels a little bossy and a little bit controlling than I would normally be if I was doing a piece that I didn't write. So there's not that space anymore. Now there's no space. And so it's like, okay guys, it's my way or the highway. You know what I mean? Like that just feels a little bit different to me. And then I would say that I think with a piece that I'm writing, I don't know, like I feel like, you know, when you're working with an ensemble and you might have an intention and you and you're, you're going to realize something and maybe the ensemble, it takes them somewhere a little bit differently than you. And you're like that interpretations. Okay. I actually like where that went and you kind of move on from there when you prayed something yourself. I think since you spent so much time with it, like in your head and then writing it down and prepping all the parts and now communicating it, maybe you might be a little more rigid. And then I feel personally like maybe I try it, I'm aware of that going in like, oh I don't want to be too rigid and like scare them away because it's me, me, me. And so maybe I'm not as maybe to counteract that. I'm not quite as strict about my own music. And I'm like, it's okay guys, let's just do that. You know what I mean? Like so, so whereas I might have like more of an insistence on my interpretation on someone else's music, but it's my music. I'm a little more flexible than I should be because I'm, I don't want it to be all about me, but that's like a psychological issue. I probably have, you know. F: So in my experience, uh, the way the composing and conducting inform one another, especially when I've been doing both, has been very much kind of like internal process of working it out. Um, and the, the idea for this whole project actually dates back to when I was an Undergrad, when I did my senior recital for the second half of the concert. I wrote three band pieces and I got the group together and conducted everything and one of my professors was playing French horn in the group. And so afterwards I went up to him. I said, how do you think it went? Do you have any advice, you know, and he said, try to think more like the conductor then

159 the composer now. And so my question that I like to ask people is, first, um, what do you think he meant? And then secondly, is there a time to think like the composer and a time to think like the conductor and how are those thoughts different in your mind? B: Really good. Okay. I might forget half of that. So you went. And the first thing I would say is I think yeah, I think again, it's probably a me issue because I'm not so much of a composer, but I feel really kind of nervous sometimes about putting my music out there because it's like, I know I'm not a professional composer so I must not be that good. So I'm sorry I'm giving you this music to play. I hope you like it. Um, I'm leaving my name off of the arrangements this year for the marching band just because I don't want them to know it was mine. And part of that is because I feel like it'll be a more honest performance. You know what I'm saying? Like they're not going to be worried about hurting my feelings slash maybe they are, my light keeps going off. Maybe they'll be, you know, also say some kids, some punk kids, like I just don't like her. And I'm gonna Smack talk music, like maybe they wouldn't do that because they don't know. It's my piece, you know? So it would be that. I wouldn't say that. Yeah. Somehow I think once the piece has been written and you're putting it forward if you're conducting it, you just gotta like get out of the mindset of like, this is my baby because, you know what I mean? It's like, it's just, you got to treat it like any other piece. And I think that's a really big challenge and I think it's probably what your, what your professor was talking about, but just treat it like any of the other pieces on the program that aren't by you. So, um, yeah, like for, in my case, I feel like maybe I do need to be a little more insistent about my intent with my pieces where I haven't been because I've been sensitive about them being my pieces and sensitive about I still want people to like me and not think I'm bossing them around because it's my piece. What was the other half of that?

F: So you just trying to think like the composer and a time to think like the conductor and how are those thoughts different? B: I think things like the composer when you're studying it and like when you're listening to like if you record your group, rehearsing it and you come away from it, listening to that, all of that. But I think when you're actually in front of a group and not think like the composer because there's a reason you're a conductor and the conductor is the person that's supposed to work with the group, not the composer. So I think the composers, yeah, it's more of just like a little bit more hands off, a little bit more like making decisions and choices that are big picture and that are like long-term. But I think in the moment when you're actually in front of the ensemble rehearsing the piece to just be in conductor mode. It's not your, it's not your music too, not your piece. There's no emotional connection to how well they're playing it or how they feel about it. Um, and you know, in terms of realizing your own intent, just treat your own intent as this like third party where you're, again, you just don't have necessarily an emotional connection to it. F: Do you think it's possible to conduct your own pieces or someone else's? B: Wow. I don't know. I mean like I feel like again, I'm just like, oh, I'm so emotional all the time, but I feel like, you know, when you write something and if you get a part that you're real proud of, like this end right here, this is just the best thing. I'm so excited I wrote that and then you conduct it and they play through it and then you're just like, I'm so excited I wrote that, you

160 know, it's really hard to like, let go of that feeling. But I think that's a good feeling to have. So I don't know that you said just conducted without that connection because it is your baby and you want your baby to be successful and you know, I guess same thing would go if you didn't have to do it and it didn't go so well, you know, in terms of if it was another piece of music that's, that's a successful piece and you know, it's had great, you know, performance has done and something doesn't go quite right. You can be like, oh, well my trombone player, you know, he had a big test and you know, this person and all of that kid was sick and blah blah blah. But um, when it's your piece, you're like, oh, I guess maybe I just didn't write it well enough, you know. So it's, I think, I don't know that it is possible to just have that disconnect. F: Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about programming. Um, did doing so much arranging for the years ever affect the way you programmed? B: Um, I think that because I'm willing to arrange and compose when there's a hole in my program that it's made me a little bit more. I'm aggressive about insisting that I, that I get what I want out of a program. So for instance, you know, again, if we're going to lead to a high school situation, like maybe some high school director just goes on like J. W. Pepper editor's picks, boom, boom, that's the first concert, you know, like that's a really easy way to program or you know, you, you feel that you fill in a program and you've got kind of a hole and your leg. Well it needs to be a quick six minute piece to like, you know, quick tempo owed six minute piece to fit in my program. So then you just face book message a couple of friends, hey, give me a quick tempo, six minute piece, shoot you back. Three answers. You fill in yourself. You know, those are really easy ways of filling in a program. But I think because I can compose and arrange and I'm willing to do that to fill in a hole. I'm not saying I'm going to always do that to fill in a hole, but like I'm just more insistent about here's what this hole is. I will find the solution and it will be the perfect solution and if I can't find something that's already written, I will go ahead and write it myself, but that means, which is the last like, which is, you know, the last option for me because it takes a lot of time. Um, but I will spend a lot of time making sure that that program is exactly what I want it to be. F: And when you're looking through the scores for the first time, your first couple of thoughts usually, oh, how does this stand as a piece of music compositionally or more just, okay, well how is this going to fit for the group that I'm programming club? B: I think I, whenever I look at music, I'm always judging it on the value standalone because even even if I'm, I have a piece or I have a program in mind and that piece doesn't fit in that program. I still love finding new literature to a tool like a program down the road later in the season or the following year or whatever. Just how bad in my mind. And so I'm not evaluating this piece doesn't work for this concert, goodbye. Like, and it's just out of my brain, like anytime even if for whatever reason I'm looking for a piece of music, I'm always going to stop and set it aside if it looks like something that has value. So like for instance, like over the summer this year, like I had to go through our entire music library to like do some inventory stuff. And so I wasn't looking for music for a program, but a couple of pieces I like was like, oh, this piques my interest. And so I looked through it and uh, several pieces I wrote down because I want to get into it more. So I would say that I would say when I look at a piece of music like judging its

161 value, I'm thinking about, you know, do I like it because my attention span is such that if I don't really like a piece, like I'm going to just keep my concert, are working on that piece to the end. Do you know, for my own sanity and then everyone's sanity around me. Uh, I need to like the piece. Um, I think the beginnings and endings are really important. So like even if a piece is great in the middle of it doesn't have a great beginning or ending, 't pick it because it's just like, that's all the people remember sometimes in concerts, unfortunately. F: I agree, when I compose a piece, that's always what I hear first in my head. I usually know exactly what I want the beginning sound like. We don't want the engine sound like B: Um, so yeah, so beginnings and ends does have an emotional impact to me. And that motion doesn't always have to be a certain emotion, but it needs to have some sort of emotional impact to me. Um, and then yeah, then I start kind of pigeon holing it in my head of like where could this fit? Not In the one concert I might be trying to plan, but like, oh, I could totally do a concert around this piece and theme at this way or that would really stay with this kid who's maybe a freshman this year, but I know they're gonna be like a featured solo is coming up a couple of years and that'd be a great for them on that instrument, you know, things like that I started thinking about in my head. Um, yeah. F: Have Students of yours ever brought you arrangements to look at that they did themselves? Um, and how does coming from your perspective of working with bands so much kind of be able to affect and improve the way you are able to critique their piece? B: I would say that like, you know, again, I'm not a composer, you don't have degrees in composition, but I would say when I am sitting down with a student and going over that, that my kind of my music education like degrees kind of kick in and so I'm, I'm just like, I'm an educator to them and so I'm going to like when we're sitting down and looking at their piece and I'm just going to kind of point out things that are great and like, Oh, you like, you really matched that melodic rhythm. Well that fit very well for, you know, how you arranged it off of whatever you were listening to. The things that I'm pointing out to them are the same things that I tried to think about myself about just idiomatically for the players, for what level they're writing for what kind of ensemble they're writing for is something going to work successfully. And if it's not, kind of just try to point out to them and explain why so that I can help them. Like, I'm not going to give them the answer and be like, oh, rewrite it this way, but more just be like, oh, the way you wrote that, the line doesn't really work because of the shifting here and then let them figure out the answer later and trying to do that in a positive way and also communicate the good things they done, they've done and like the great things about their arrangement. So they still come away from it feeling encouraged. Um, but just, but yeah, giving them the feedback that'll make that arrangement better because obviously anyone want, if you're going to go through that effort, you want to get it to be laid and you want to repeat play and that only happens if it's written well. F: Thinking about how to phrase this next one because you've already talked about how, you know, you kind of, you're, you think very practically, um, when you're, I guess I want to say is, is there any other ways in which your experience has as an educator has affected, um, the way

162 you've chosen metrical groupings, technical prowess. And then are you pretty much covered this throughout the interview with your other answers, but if there was anything else that. B: Yeah, actually, so all specifically talk about the partita and the score isn't really available. Like I had to request the score from Hershey. It's not published, um, the, the Patina that I'm transcribing, but if you listen to the recording, there's a lot of things that are like get a little bit aleatoric and the fact that it's eight solo vocalists who are in a very tight knit ensemble and know each other very well and perform with each other very well means that they have a particular way of doing it, that it's very comfortable and organic. So my job with this transcription is how do I recreate the aleatoric sections in her piece that, I mean she has stuff that's written aleatoric Lee, but then two singers, we'll sing it together in unison and it's like, how did they figure that out? And it's like, well they just are comfortable with each other and they both decided on like, this is our duet interpretation and everybody else just goes with it. You know. And so I have to learn like, what, when do I make a decision to know that part can't be aleatoric I'm going to write out and transcribed the rhythm that I'm hearing in the recording because I need in this many instruments and there's just no way they're going to be able to do that aleatoricly and stay together. Right. So I've had to make like that. Um, another one I've noticed would be like, there's a few sections where again, it's an aleatoric solo section where there's like four voices that come in one after another. And so like the first voice might come in and finish the line and then the second voice comes in and finishes the line. But then while the second voice is coming in, now the third voice comes in and overlaps and it's in the score she gave me it. It doesn't imply that at all. It's just that's how they chose to do it. And so what I chosen to do with the transcription is I wrote out the line in for solo voices. So I actually did pick was because I was like, just this is going to get way too sloppy if I'm trying to do multiple wind players, right? So I four soloists and actually specify, just give more instruction. So like always one you come in first, right? So once I put first cue over that person and then the second person I say, uh, after first voice. So that implies like the first voice is done and then you will come in. But you can choose when to come in. You can come in right after, you can take a breath, you can take a prep, whatever, third voice, Echo, second voice giving them like there's, there's, there's after and then there's echo and those are two separate things. Then echo comes in while the first while something is still going on and after it's like it's all done and now you're doing it. So I think I'm coming from a place where, you know, I'm sitting in thinking like if I'm a band player, what kind of repertoire I have, I seen before what kind of aleatoric stuff in my comfortable with am I comfortable with seeing an open bar that takes up a full line of a page of music and it says 26 seconds approximately at the top I am because I've seen her before and I was, you know, um, but at the same time I need more instructions that were on Carolyn's trans original score. If I just took Carolyn's original score and throw it out the band, they would just like, it'd be terrible. So I'm having to kind of figure out like from where a band person would be up to a college level, what kind of instructions do they still need in order to play a successful but still true rendition of this piece. And I guess what are you looking forward to most about, you know, starting the rehearsals and the premier of. Um, so I think rehearsal wise, I'm looking forward to these reading sessions we'll do in the fall because the reading sessions going to really tell me how much cents I made up her piece because again, her piece works perfectly as written for the eight people in roomful of teeth. You could not put that in front of any other ensemble and reproduce something that sounds like that at all. So the

163 reading sessions are going to really tell me, did my instructions, did my decisions to turn some aleatoric things non aleatoric to my decisions to like move some stuff into like full blown band score versus just these eight voices, you know, were those effective choices and not how do I make them more effective. So I'm excited about that process about seeing how close to the mark I got and then fixing and tweaking and getting that feedback too because all the students who already know about my project and they're really excited about it. Like I'll probably work with a couple kids individually just to look at the score first where I put it out to the whole band and we play it. But yeah, so just knowing from them getting their feedback of like, oh, be better to do this, why can we try it this way? Like I'm excited about that stuff. I want to make it a collaborative process and I want to be something that really makes sense in terms of the premier. Um, I, what I really want is to have a piece that can stand on its own two legs because a lot of people think like, oh, that's a weird project. Like that's, those are such different ensembles and that piece of such a vocal piece, it doesn't make any sense for band. And I'm like, no, no, no, you don't give them a vision. So what I'm really excited about is not necessarily like proving those people wrong, but to have a piece that's like enjoyable and satisfying as a wind piece without the text anymore. And I am going to have the spoken word still. So I don't know if you've heard the piece before, but they're, the first and last movement had just spoken word, not, not singing, but they, they speak right to the side, to the side, to the side. And around, so I'm going to still have that in the score and actually at my premier it'll be some , students doing the spoken word part, but I will have it in a way that if another group wants to play it down the road, they could have eight and band members speak those parts and then go sit back in the band for the rest of the show. Like it's up to them how they want to do it. So I'll have the spoken word, but the rest of it, all of the vocal parts disappear. All the texts disappears. So is this piece going to be a satisfying standalone piece for wind ensemble? Uh, in the way that it is for vocalist? That's my goal. And that's what I'm looking forward to it. F: And what are some of the biggest challenges you've had or challenges that you're anticipating? B: So the one that's driving me crazy as in the second movement to Sarah Bond, um, she came up with this really cool technique where the vocalists start with a hum the Hump Sinks and pitch than raises up and pitch, password started and then they opened their mouth and they sing this open mouth cord. So like go. That's like the first pitch I cannot for the life of me how figure out how to reproduce that sound on instruments. And I've been asking everyone I know and I've gotten tons of ideas so far but I haven't like nailed it to me. Like Oh, it's going to be this exact thing. So those kinds of things are driving me crazy where it's just like, not only is it a vocal technique but it's like a weird proprietary vocal technique that she made up for this piece. So like it's just coming out of nowhere and suddenly I have to be like a. well I guess if I do bone vibraphone, clarinet on the downbeat and then before those come in, maybe do a Timpani hit with a sinking. The pedal, raising the pedal sinking in the pedal and a bass clarinet glissando maybe that will work. And then I have other people telling me like, oh, you could do harm and meets and the trumpets and then do a plunger out and go la. And I'm like, that's great, but I didn't want brass at all at the beginning of the second, you know what I mean? So I'm having to like, there's a couple of puzzles I'm having to figure out and it's mostly just because of these really strange vocal techniques are like categories, like, um, there's like these tube and throat singing

164 things that are just like, how do you get that sound on an instrument? And it's really exciting process, but it's also like I got a nail it otherwise if the piece will be ruined. So that's where I'm at. F: Your experience in Music Ed and conducting has informed your composing and arranging and vice versa. Do you feel that, you know, having been involved with that other side of things has also, you know, made you a better conductor and educator? B: Yeah. Um, so I think I kind of answered the first bit already, but I'll repeat just that, um, I think as some time coming from the education and conducting side already that it probably doesn't make me the most creative composer because I'm thinking about idioms and limitations on instruments and I'm thinking about particular people because for the most part I'm writing for my own students. And so it's like, well, I know our, you know, blue sections, wheat this year, so I won't write anything that they're not going to be able to play in tune, you know. Um, so I think that limits me a little bit, which is why I'm not a professional composer. Um, and I, but I would say from the other side I'm composing has influenced me as a conductor and musician because I think I feel like I understand the struggle and the process and I'm more forgiving and I'm more interested in the intent I would say, than maybe the average conductor maybe, um, who just might be like, I'm going to take this piece and it's all about my kids and my interpretation and blah, blah, blah. And to me, I think I see the, I see the thought process and the struggle and the like the life force that was poured into a lot of these pieces and I want to get to know them. Like for instance, um, when I got here to Kentucky because I'm from California originally, so I like people from California, don't know anything outside California. But I moved here and I found out like, oh, the composer John Barnes chance, um, taught at University of Kentucky. He was here for eight years before he died, very suddenly in an accident while he was still a teacher here. So I kind of like was like, oh, I'm really interested in. So I've like tried to find out about him a lot. And so I've just been studying his life and like trying to. I've talked to like our composition professor who's here right now was on faculty at the same time as John Barnes chance before he died. And so like he gave me like firsthand accounts and all this stuff and I felt like I've gotten to know him as a composer a lot better. And I would look at his pieces and some of his pieces I played before, like in high school and college, whatever, um, and some of his pieces I haven't played before, but I look at his pieces now when I like see the person where I've never met him before and, but I feel like I've gotten this connection from just wanting to study him and learn about his life and now I know him as a person better. I feel like that's going to influence how I interpret his music and like my respect and reverence for his music. That makes sense. And I don't think I would've done that had I not really had such a fascination and connection to composition already. F: Oh, well thank you very much.

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Zachary Friedland Interview with Andrew Boysen Jr. June 5th, 2018

Friedland: Thank you for participating in this. This is completely voluntary, you are free to stop the interview at any time, and I just want to make sure I have your permission to use your name in the document itself, and your job title, basically to cite this as an interview. Boysen: Sure. F: Alright, so I guess well get started. The first question is just, do you consider yourself more composer/conductor or conductor/composer? B: Um, I don’t know, I would probably say conductor/composer because that is what my job especially is. But also with the composing, it’s a big part of what I do, so I would say it is a fairly equal part, but if I had to choose I would say conductor/composer. F: Was their one that you started doing first before the other? B: I started composing way before I started conducting. F: Okay, cool. So to really dive in here, when you are at a concert and you are listening in the audience, do you find yourself listening more for the compositional aspects of the music, or evaluating the performance of the group? B: Um, I don’t know…that is an interesting question to ask. I suppose it is more….I don’t know though. That’s a good question. If it is a piece I know, than I am listening to the group. Does that make sense? F: Yep. B: If it is a new piece, which is usually what would excite me, than I would be more interested in the piece than the performance, if that makes sense. F: Okay, yeah, definitely. B: I think an example would be, if I am listening to like Lincolnshire Posy, I’m not really thinking about Posy anymore, does that make sense. F: Yeah, cause it’s so ingrained, and you have heard it so many times. B: But if I am listening to a new piece I have never heard before, I am focused a lot more on the piece. F: And so this question of listening, how does that apply if you are listening to a performance of your own composition? So if you are in the audience for a performance of “I Am” or one of your own pieces… B: Right. Im not sure if I am helping by saying again, it depends. If I am listening to something I have heard a million times, I am definitely listening to what they do, or what they choose, like what comes out of the texture differently, or the tempo was different their than what I expected,

166 so I am probably thinking of it that way more. So that is actually an interesting thing to think about, I think…take “I Am” for a second, I would probably be less focused on “oh they played that out of tune” and more interested in the musical, like..musical moment that I wanted. F: Yeah B: Like did the horn line come through the way I wanted it there. So I think that is more compositionally based, F: Now I mean I guess, going back to your answer to the previous question, when you said for Lincolnshire Posy, a piece that you’ve heard thousands of times, you listen more to the performance but, what if it was a premier of a new piece? A premier of a new piece of yours that you had never heard in person before. Would your answer to that change, would you be doing more of a self-evaluation in that moment? B: In that moment it is almost entirely a self evaluation. F: Okay, cool. B: I think there is almost a mix. I think if it is a premier than I am almost listening entirely to if the piece works. And the only thing that would worry me about the performance is if I think there is something they did to the piece. Like I am sure if they had done it differently, you know what I mean? F: Yeah. So the next big question is how is it similar or different preparing your own score versus preparing someone else’s score. B: Preparing my own score versus someone else’s? F: Yeah. Primarily score study for now, because I have more questions about rehearsal later. B: Yeah, when I am conducting one of my own pieces, I don’t really do any score study. You know what, I take that back, In a piece like “Tricycle” that has like, a million meter changes, especially if it has been a while I will go back through and make sure I can actually do it. F: Haha, yes. I remember when I did Blue and White Dance, that had quite a few meter changes too, with the 2’s and 3’s and such. B: You know what, with that one, it was recent enough for me, that I did it with a band a few months ago, and I looked at it like five minutes before I did it with them, just to make sure like, I got this. Cause for your own piece really, you’ve spent so much time with it, you know what you want, especially if you wrote it, and you’re in the moment again with that piece. But if it is somebody elses piece, that’s a much different discovery process, you really gotta spend a lot more time trying to figure out what’s going on. F: Yeah. B: You really gotta take a look at the whole piece. F: Would you almost say the composition process is score study within itself?

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B: Yes, definitely. I thin while you’re composing you are so deep in that piece, if I could get my score study to the point where I felt like I was composing this, than that would be ideal. Just to know every note, that would really be ideal in a way. F: Yeah, and do you notice similarities, like notice things that you do in both your score study and your composing? B: What do you mean? F: Okay so if you were to liken the idea of composing a piece to the same as studying a score, do you find that, and the answer to this question might be no, but do you find that there are things that you do both in your composition process and your score study process that are kind of similar in any way? B: You know, I do think that, I don’t know if anyone else will see it or not but there is always a logic to what I do in writing and I am always searching for that logic in other pieces. F: Okay. B: So I think that influence how I approach a score, and it’s interesting, you can look at a Stravinsky score, or like Boulez and think, I don’t know why that is there. And there are some composers that just don’t approach music that way. And so that can be amusing, like that is not the way I would have approached it, but I will probably be thinking about this to try to understand what is happening. F: So continuing on, going back to when I asked about if it is different preparing your own score versus preparing someone else’s score, has your answer to that question changed over the course of you career and conducting your own music? Like the first time you conducting one of your own pieces, was it the same as if you were to conduct one of your own pieces now? B: In terms of the score study process? F: Yes, still in terms of the score study process. B: Yeah, I mean, thinking about Blue and White Dance, not many people know that piece exists, I think you’re one of about 4 people in the world, if I were to approach that now, it is a new enough piece for me that I am still very intimately connected with but there are some other pieces were I might have to spend a little more time with, like oh there is that meter change, that is how that is supposed to work, Where as if it was a piece I have done, I think you mentioned I am before, I have worked on so many groups with that over so many years, it doesn’t even feel like my piece anymore, it’s just another piece that I know really well. So then there is a completely different approach to like, preparing to work on that piece. F: Cool, um…it’s interesting that you say that, I am gonna skip down to a later question, just before you mentioned that you conduct this piece so many times it feels like another piece, so would you say, is it ever easier to harder to remove yourself from one of your own pieces? And can you ever conduct your own piece as if it was someone else’s?

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B: Yeah, I think that “I Am” and “Tricycle” I have done so many times now, that I am doing it more as a conductor than as a composer. F: Yep. B: I’ll still talk about those things that I think are important to bring out because I wrote it. Things that I always listen for, but in a way it’s no different than doing Variations on a Korean Folk Song, because I think I know the way that should be. So yeah, I think like those pieces don’t feel any different to be than like, Variations on a Korean Folk Song. F: Okay, but would you say, is it possible to conduct the premier of your own piece as if it were someone else’s or are you still to close to the compositional process? B: Oh yeah, yeah. I think if I did someone new of mine I would still be too close to the compositional part of it. The connection would still be there that way. F: Alight so last question that kind of refers specifically to score study, does being a composer/conductor effect the way you program? And specifically, when you get a new piece, do you find yourself diving into how the piece works compositionally or do you evaluate it more in the sense of how will this fit my group? B: Oh, it’s way more the first one. It’s much more about how it works. F: Compositionally, okay. B: I mean, there is certainly an element eventually, the programming is where it always starts for me, like what kind of an experience do I want my students to have. There are all sorts of considerations educationally, and there are also like, musical considerations I want my students to be moved and I want them to experience different things. That is in play, but I spend a ton of time on programming, I fuss about it a lot, like I came really close to doing Artic Dreams last year, and I mean musically I think it’s an amazing and I know it would have been an amazing experience for my kids, but eventually there comes, how many rehearsals do we have, how long is this piece, how good are my percussionists really, so I think that plays into it eventually, but that is not the first consideration, and I think a lot of conductors are the other way around, is that kind of where you are aiming with this? F: Yeah. B: A lot of people are focused on the practical almost immediately and sometimes without any consideration for the musical, or the ascetic. It much more about if it fits the group. F: Yeah. B: Becomes much less about the music itself. So from a programming point of view or if I’ve commissioned a piece the first time I look at it I am almost entire thinking about how it is put together. F: So now I would like to talk a little bit about rehearsal and of course the big questions is, do you rehearse your own music differently than you rehearse other composer’s music?

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B: Well, the question would be do I want to and the answer is no. I think it’s just that you are so intimately knowledgeable about your own piece, there are things that I just can’t do with other piece, that I can do with my own music, like I know exactly how I want it to sound. Like with other pieces, you know it, you work at it, but you may not have time to think about the balance between the bass clarinet and bassoon. Like when I wrote that piece, I know that, but those are just little things that can escape you during the score study process. So in that way, I think I am much more inefficient with somebody else’s piece. Does that make sense? Even if I don’t want to be. F: So I want to kind of preface this next questions with a story. So for my senior recital at URI, my senior composition recital, I had three band pieces and I conducted them all with a group I had put together. And Brian Cardany was playing French horn in the group and after the rehearsal I went up to him and ask if he had any advice, just in regards to how the rehearsal went, and he said “Try to think more like the conductor than the composer.” And so my question is do you think there is a time to think like the composer and think like the conductor? And if so, how are those thoughts different in your mind? B: Hmm, I am trying to understand what he meant by that. F: Yeah, I have still been trying to figure that out myself, its kind of the heart of this project. B: I guess I could put an explanation on it and have it make sense, but I am not sure if he meant it that way. I think they are quite related in some ways. If I’m conducting, I think what he might have meant in terms of…I’m just thinking about certain attack or something that I want, sometimes there is a certain way you need to approach the ensemble to get that result. So thinking like the conductor, how do I need to help them at this moment, or what do they need from me at this moment. But I think that is very intimately related to being the composer too, like… F: Like, when you talked about how you know exactly how you want your own music to sound, like with the bassoon/bass clarinet you know you want the bassoon to dominate, do you ever find that it is easy to escape into those little details? B: Do get so involved with something maybe that is ultimately not as important? Say there are rhythmic alignment issues in the ensemble, what they need at that moment is really just a clear pattern, instead of being worried about bass clarinet and bassoon balance, that kind of thing? F: Yeah. B: Okay, I guess that makes sense, yeah. And I think for me I would tend to…I think the conductor part of me would come out in that moment. I guess from the composer, if I had the choice to hear my piece without the bass clarinet/bassoon balance or the ensemble not together, I would want the ensemble together. F: Yeah. B: Yeah, I think in that same moment I would react the same way. Does that make sense?

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F: Yeah. Its an interesting questions, it is something that I have thought about, that recital was in 2012 and I am still thinking about that today and just the idea, because I believe there is a lot of interconnectivity between composing and conducting, I’ve always kind of felt like they went hand in hand, at least for someone like myself or loved writing band music and stuff, so that kind of leads into the next question which is, where does the composers job end and the conductor’s job begin? And what is your idea or definition of artistic license. B: Wow, that’s a big one too. So I am probably more…this is something I go through with my students actually, I personally think it’s my job, our job on the podium to re-create as best we can, what we think the composer intended. So I’m not a big fan of people just changing stuff. I’ve heard people say that as a conductor I want to put my stamp on it…well, no, that’s the wrong tempo, I don’t know what to tell you. But I have only rarely been upset about what people did to my music, if they changed stuff, or just added stuff in that was clearly not there, I do however think that, well I don’t know if it’s true anymore, but it did seem like there was a time when a lot of the military bands, if it wasn’t on the page, they weren’t doing it, and what results then is often just a very flat performance. There are certain things, like music breathes, just because it has a tempo marking, the tempo is going to fluctuate a little, there is a sense of push and pull in almost all music, and I think it’s the conductors job to get inside the music and think, what is this line trying to do, what does this composer want to have happen with this moment, and kind of interpret what that is, so I mean, if I’m doing Mozart’s Serenade with my grad students, if they do a little ritard right before the recap, I’m going to say, that’s not there let’s not do it. And they might say, it’s the recap I wanted to draw attention, the dominant there beforehand is not for too long, I wanted to stress that just a little bit, and draw attention to what is happening in the form. I would have no problem with that whatsoever. So if there is a reason what you think the composer might have wanted that, if that is expressing the piece, and in the best form. So I think there is room for that, but I don’t think that should be about the performer, I think that’s gotta happen. Every version of the piece is gonna sound different depending on who conducted this piece. It just is because of the size of the ensemble, how they approach the music, and if someone is gonna mess with it just to mess with it, it’s gonna sound like that. It’s gonna sound like that group. So I hope that answers. F: And has your interpretation of your own music ever changed from hearing someone else conduct it? B: Yes. F: Yeah, okay. B: Yeah, absolutely. One of the cases, take the last three notes in Kirkpatrick Fanfare, it’s just three eight notes, their all the same three eights notes, and somebody, I don’t remember who it was, it was a recording, but I don’t remember who did it, just added a little fun with the very last one, just a little accent. And when I heard I was like, that’s coo, that works, it helps define that moment a little more, that very last moment. F: Yeah.

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B: Because you would think a lot the first of the three would be the strongest. But this actually pushed it through to the end. I certainly didn’t actually even have it in mind as I wrote the thing, but I actually think it contributes to it, what I want the piece to do. So now, that is actually what I ask for now when I am doing that piece. F: Great, yeah. And out of curiosity has the opposite ever happened? Has a composer ever told you, oh you gave me a whole new interpretation of my work. B: Um, maybe I don’t remember. Thankfully I have never had anybody say, you totally messed up my work. I mean, its possible, but I don’t think anyone has ever come up to me and said, I’ve never thought of it that way, that’s even better than I thought. It may have happened, that’s interesting. F: And so the last two questions in this section kind of go as a pair. Are their things in particular you like about conducting your own music? And are there certain challenges you find in conducting your own music? B: Um, I don’t think there are any particular challenges, at last none that are occurring to me right now. Are there things I particularly like about it, is that what you said? F: Yeah. B: I think there are a couple things. First of all, I know that I can get it the way I want it, because I know exactly what it sounds like, versus what someone else might hear. And so the way I want to hear it. And I don’t know how you feel about this but hopefully you feel the same way, I like my own music. F: Oh for sure, yeah. B: So I don’t mind working on it. So hopefully I don’t overdo that with my group. I don’t know, have you ever heard of composers that don’t like their own music? Which would be so weird to me, like once you write, it, aren’t you supposed to like it? F: Yeah. I mean, there are piece, looking back now, you know, there are pieces that I wrote eight years go that I think wow, I’ve come a long way since then. B: Okay, yeah. F: But yeah, I still like those pieces even if they don’t show the same mastery of the craft that I have developed over the last eight years, but for me its jut a lot of, to me getting up on that podium is the really exciting part, it’s the part when I have done all this work, I have put this work into the creation, and now I get to share it. B: Yes. F: So, really, I don’t compose for myself is what I am saying. So, last section deals more with composing and composition. When you are giving someone a composition lesson, do you ever find that your experience as a conductor plays a strong role in how you critique their piece?

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B: Yeah, absolutely. Especially notational stuff, like things with students if you think back to your undergrad days, or if I think back to my undergrad days, you get a sound in your head compositionally but sometimes you can’t express it in the most productive way. Sometimes, like there are a lot of times when I can just so somebody, this way it will actually be way easier, you’ll actually get what you want. F: Yeah. B: Um, I think that plays into things a lot, those kinds of things. F: And does being a conductor effect the way you choose metrical groupings for meters, or the way you handle range or technical prowess or balance? B: Um, I think there is the practical side of having taught for a long time and about knowing what could be difficult, I’ve certainly made my mistakes compositionally too, like oh, don’t do that ever again, and I’ll see them making the same mistake I made. There is a compositional side of things, there is a conducting side of thing. Um, the meter stuff, I think that probably does play into things in terms of how things are grouped, I’m doing this symphony for a group next year and we’ve gone back and forth, back and forth about some of the stuff in the first movement, on how some of the stuff is grouped and how he hears it in his head, just how it’s actually gonna play out. Because sometimes you can hear, say, the strong beats, if it will actually be easier to note with a mixed meter thing, sometimes it’s easier to note straight because it’s practically not gonna work as well if you do the mixed meter. Do you know what I mean? F: Yeah. B: It’s hard to explain it well, like a line that is kind of crazy mixed meter, like and that’s the melody, so you kind want to beam it that way and bar it that way, maybe ninety percent of the group is playing it in 4/4. F: Yeah. B: Cause in 4/4 you kind have those back and forth moments, it’s a way to actually get the result you want. F: And so, you said in the beginning of this that you started composing first, so when you started conducting, did it start to make a lot of these things fall into place as far as your compositional process, did you feel like it helped hone your compositional process? B: Yeah, I think I probably got better as a composer, as I started conducting a lot more. The reason I started conducting a lot more was because I started teaching. The more I started thinking about all these things regularly, the more it effected my writing. Like a composer/teacher. F: And so my last question here is if there was anything else you wanted to say about how do you feel your experience being a composer and conductor influences and enhances both of those skills? B: Yeah, as I said before, I think it’s the answer you’re going to get is essentially the same from everybody, it does enhance it. Just to be on the podium, teaching conducting, just the practical

173 things and being intimately involved with live music making in that way changes how you approach something when you go to conceive something. And certainly that the composition side helps me approach things in a much different way than a lot of other conductors approach their scores. Because sometimes I bet others will not have thought about how am I going to physically get out of fermata, but sometimes I probably perceive it, I think generally speaking it helps me get in front of my group with a deeper understanding of what the piece is about, and ultimately that is what’s more important. F: Awesome, well thank you very much for taking the time to do this.

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Zachary Friedland Interview with Paul Brust July 10th, 2018

Friedland: Yeah. So, just before we start, I again want to let you know this is completely voluntary, so you can stop at any time, and I just want to make sure I have your permission if I want to quote you directly in the document that I can use your name.

Brust: Yes.

F: Awesome. All right. So, the first question is, just do you consider yourself more composer/conductor or conductor/composer?

B: Definitely composer/conductor.

F: Yeah, and did you start doing one before the other, or around the same time?

B: No, I started composing and then didn't do conducting until ... later. Several ... no, not several. Well, maybe I don't know, maybe four or five years later.

F: So when you are at a concert, do you find yourself listening more to the compositional aspects of the music, or evaluating the performance of the group?

B: Good question. I would probably say the content of the music.

F: And, how does that question apply when you're listening to a performance, or even a recording of one of your own compositions? Does anything change?

B: One of my own compositions or a new piece, I still tend to focus on the compositional aspect. But sometimes I do think, maybe in the back of my mind on the other side of that. This is a little bit too slow. Like I heard the Denver Orchestra this movement I think, is a little too slow. Usually, then, I try to get rid of that out of my head and just focus on the music, obviously, is what I wanna listen to. It's hard not to be somewhat having one ear sort of pealed to I would certainly get strikes doing that tempo or dynamic, or balance or something like that that pops into my head. I can't help it because, being a conductor, that's one of our jobs of course.

F: You mentioned at the beginning of your answer, the idea of the first time you were hearing something. So the first time that you hear one of your pieces played or even rehearsed, is that, more of, a self-evaluation, or is that more of, a ... okay, let's see how these players handle the music?

B: Well, it's all about the composition.

F: Okay. Cool. So, when you are conducting, how is it different preparing your own score versus preparing someone else's score?

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B: Well, presumptively, I know my own score inside and out. So, in other words, I know it because I've written it, obviously.

F: Yup.

B: So ... I don't normally have to study the score so much because it’s written and so on. So that's, I would say, the main difference. If it's a score that we've not studied the score, etc. ... mark it up a lot more, etc. Now] score all that kind of stuff.

F: Do you almost find ... does the compositional process almost feel like the score study? Do you know you're going to be conducting the piece?

B: Not so much, because sometimes, I don't know who's going to conduct it ...sometimes I, or if I'm conducting an older piece, then I may have to, obviously revisit it compositionally. In other words, do another analysis of it, because especially something I wrote 10, 12 years ago. Yeah, so I will have to refresh the score. But I know how it should go.

F: Yeah.

B: And so on. But, I've also well, conducted a piece, say I haven't done in a while, and I conduct, let's say, after a number of years. I will go back and visit it, and actually, occasionally make a dynamic change or, a balance change, or maybe ... put a articulation over a note, or something like that, just that change, just that little thing after all those years.

F: Likewise, do you feel that you rehearse your own music any differently than you rehearse other people's music?

B: Let's see ... I think, I might spend more time on the ... expressive aspects of the music perhaps, because I know what they are for me, because I wrote the piece. But you wouldn't know the composer if you were probably taking a look at other scores obviously, you couldn't agree, obviously. Well, you wouldn't know 100%. But my thing that kind of skewed. So I think, perhaps, I'm assuming that technically, that everyone's going to be fine. But, basically I'm more in tune with the expressive acts, I see the pieces, musical moment, and also I'm very careful ... and maybe a little bit open to finding what the by a hair, or something like that. But easy if the composer is giving me a very strict tempo if you're not around I'm just going to go with it.

F: Yeah. We're going to talk more about that in a minute because I specifically remember when you conducted my Pirrot piece, we'll talk about that more later. But, you said that when you're rehearsing your own music, you know just, what you want out of it expressively, you know exactly how it's supposed to go. Do you ever, find it hard to remove yourself from the piece?

B: Not so much, because I'm sort of half composer and half conductor at that point. So, I know I'm putting the piece together, and it's a purely technical, methodical way to conducting, jester it and stuff, rehearse it, techniques, and all that stuff. You bring the same thing, at the same time,

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I'm thinking, okay, is this also capturing the expressive quality that I want at any given moment. So my brain is kind of ... split.

F: Yeah.

B: Does that make sense?

F: Yeah, and, do you think that you could ever conduct your own piece as if it was someone else's?

B: A couple of times looking at putting something together really quickly of mine where I literally had two rehearsals the day before or something like that. I did actually have to do it purely, really just not worry about, so much, the expressive quality, really just being a ... technician.

F: Yeah.

B: So yes, I do recall, having to do that where, I've gotta put it together, it's all technical.

F: Yeah.

B: It's quality of being in a rehearsal every chance that you have, so all that information, all that kind of stuff.

F: While we still kind of mentioned it I want to talk about, the idea of ... interpretation. Where do you feel the composer's job ends and the conductor's job begins?

B: The composer's ends? So, if the composer hands me something, Okay, I'm assuming the composer knows what they want, and they're handing me a final version, etc. I will take it at face value, and will go back to the composer once, however, as I'm setting the score, and I see, perhaps ... dynamic or a low register, I'd say, and there's also brass playing, I would say, that's where they need to be focusing on just brass, and I just ... drilling it out. So, I will come in with questions, and I usually ask the composer first ... for the most part. But I pretty much tell them, I'd say, okay, these are all the things that I think you need to ... I like to meet with the composers before I conduct a new piece. Just go over the score with them and after I've looked at it for a bit, and say, okay, here I think we need to focus because of this reason. Here you might want to consider having more or less because there's no, there's no articulation, and I said, well do you want space between ... those notes or no? Or something like that, and ask about articulation, how short, how long. So I think there's still, obviously, after I look at the score, that if we have questions for the conductor, I'm sorry, the composer ... and of course, in rehearsal, when the composer does which is usually locally a prerecorded rehearsal, because I like to work it up first. But of course, I'll follow what they want, whatever it is, tempo, or dynamic, or ... being a balance or being on a particular line, that's their prerogative.

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F: Yeah. The reason I was excited asking you this question was I remember that I remember, this was back about five years ago, when we did the Puro pieces. And you specifically came to me, and at that time, I was kind of ... of the mind set that giving the conductor an idea of, I was just using general terms to identify tempo, I wasn't giving specific numbers or everything, and I remember you came to me and said, "I need a better idea of what you want here, because I don't know your music, and ... allegro could mean anything from 118 to 140".

B: Yes, I do remember that. I do remember that conversation.

F: How, does being a composer yourself, kind of influence the idea, ... if you didn't have access to talk with the composer ... does being a composer yourself, kind of influence the way you might handle ambiguous tempo markings?

B: Well yes. I see that definitely works. I'm thinking as a composer, in other words, and not ... to say a conductor would, so I pretty much have to at some point, because if I'm going to make sense out of it musically and expressively, I need to make those decisions. So I think, okay, let's see what ... given this and this, these chords here so on, so I think this is probably what the composer's going for. And then suggest it, I'll run it by the composer and say, am I in the right ballpark, so to speak. Make sense?

F: Yes. I just want to go back to just rehearsal for a minute. So, kind of the beginning of this whole project which dates all the way back to when I did my senior recital, in undergrad, and for the second half of the concert, I wrote three band pieces and I put a group of students together, and I conducted them, and one of my professors from URI was playing french horn in the ensemble, and after rehearsal, I went up to him and I said, "how to you think it went, do you have any advice?". And he said, "try to think more like the conductor, than the composer". And so my question to you is one, how would you interpret that comment, and is there a time to think like the composer and think like the conductor, and if so, how are those thoughts different in your mind?

B: Like, that's a tough question. I mean really. I think, first and foremost, if I'm conducting something that's not my own, is to make, in other words. Technically, you never, it's always a good performance. So ... that indicates obviously all the technical things, in other words I can go with the tempos and make sure to follow the articulations are correct, balance is good, et cetera, et cetera, everyone's together, you know that kind of stuff. Composite rhythms have all lined up, et cetera. But then I ask, "Who could offer that pacing?", and I might suggest maybe we could, to the composer, maybe pull back before the end, like that. But, boy that's a tough one. In my own stuff, like with my own music, I pretty much always know what the score to write, it's pretty rare that we might change a tempo or something like that unless there's a problem with technical ability, maybe it's playing too fast for whatever it is or whatever anything like that, that I overlooked, but I try to write a piece so it will play the way it's written, that it will just play and will work with it. Conducting somebody else's music I will, again, try to go with what they have, if there's something that's holding back, if it was a musical idea or you know, let's say it's a Terra

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Rondo and I think it should, it's a 270 going from the, I don't know, let's just say from 110 the music is really fast, I might adapt those speeds and I'm saying, "Do we want this Terra Ronda to be?" But there it's like your pushing on the gas pedal to the floor quite quickly. And I'll ask if that's the case. Sometimes, I work with people, and they're a little more hesitant to say something right And then ... so I was afraid to speak up until the conductor said, "Is the tempo okay here? Do you want it to be ... I think it could move up a little bit more", and I said, "I think you're right". And so we tried it and I liked it.

F: Yeah. You just answered one of my next questions which was, has your interpretation of your own music ever changed by hearing someone else conduct it? So I guess the answer to that would be yes?

B: Yes. Absolutely, yes, that was a few years ago and yes I did cave to , you don't go to the first ever rehearsal, basically you come to the concert and then the dress rehearsal in the hall. So I actually did change things that the conductor said. He thought that things would be better if we did it this way, actually one of them was in the Terra Rondo, and we decided to basically start it slightly earlier so it's not 2-7. And I agreed. He said, "Well we'll play it for you with ... play with the start and see what you think. So we did it, and I said, "That's exactly right. Let's keep it." So ... I've also seen it with my , with songs I have written and so on, sometimes people have done something, they've written a score, and sometimes I find a particular, I write the note, "Please don't, we're not on combo there till the end". And, and, I don't know, because I'm pretty particular with my music all over the place, and I think most of my former composition teachers have really said, "Really use a metronome, you can't really go wrong But it's going to be in the ballpark. And if I want ballpark 78 or something like that, but usually I'm pretty ... I expect my template to be adhered to, for the most part. I think some schools, I really wanted t o be at that tempo ... I can't think of the word here ... I'd be, "There's no lee-way in terms of speeding up the tempo fluctuation."

F: And overall the sense that I'm getting is you, as a conductor, you seem to be very sensitive to specific things about the music and specific things the composer wants, and I think I'd be right to assume that your experience as a composer has informed this, in the sense that-

B: Oh, absolutely.

F: Yeah.

B: Because as a composer you're a . I know how they are crafted, to a degree. So that's the copy that has to be open to score setting, so that's why so many composers and conductors and vice versa are good conductors and the conductors are good composers. I've heard a lot of conductors that I really like and a whole bunch of them that are really good composers. Really good conductor/composers. So throughout the history ... because I think we're used to thinking in terms of technical terms, how is this section working, how is this pitch working, and what's the overall shape of the product? And so, as a result, I think it behooves the composer to have a

179 composer/conductor work on their piece because they know how to study a score really well, inside and out. Because that's what we do as composers, right? We're in the score and really know what's going on it that piece. Yeah, we're writing and after we'll be finished the piece and I go back and think, "Does this make sense? Does that make sense?", and so on, going back and forth. So, with that knowledge I study a score, assuming I'm given time enough to study, even if I'm not, I say yes because that's the most important thing for the conductor is knowing the score. Know the score, number one. Most conducting teachers say, "You have to know the score, inside and out." And then if you have to make a photocopy and stuff and scribble all over it, and then have a clean copy, then do that. And that's what I used to do. Still, even, to this day, would do something like that, especially if I'm doing like a, I don't know, a symphony or something like that. So, the composer background, we're taught how things work from the inside, and so that, to me, is extremely important for the conductor to know that information. I suppose I was brought up that way, I was a composer first and then I've been conducting, but some conductors don't necessarily compose themselves or not necessarily thinking, perhaps, in the same way. I think, anyway.

F: Yeah. Definitely.

B: As a composer there's no question. I know from the score I studied all those kind of things. I mean, and even a good conductor should do that as well. And also, studying a score in terms of what makes this ... what is in the music that with expressive quality. I'm always thinking about that, at any given moment. And for quality, sometimes I use the word, if not I won't be so sure of the composer, but I'll say "Who's passage is this I'm seeing, because of this, this, and this in the music." The tempo, the register, the fact that the change in music here, maybe it should be a little more, maybe it's not the right, not moving forward kind of suspended kind of thing, or the shape of the music didn't give you that feeling at any particular moment. And if the composer is there at that time, he or she will speak up and say, "I don't want it that way. I don't want it."

F: So, when you're teaching composition at Longy, or anywhere else, how does your experience as a conductor play a role in how you teach and kind of just your overall approach to giving composition lessons?

B: The overall approach with me would be is make the score very clear to what you want. So there aren't a whole lot of questions that the conductor will need to ask. They can be in another country and prepare your score without having to ask too much detail, be very clear in your instructions, be very detailed, so there aren't a lot of questions or confusions so it's right there in the score. So the conductor is like, "Great. I know exactly how to read this. Exactly what the composer wants. I know I've said that to a number of composers, you know, I'm not quite sure what you want here because you don't have enough on the page to really tell me it's expressive intent or the sound quality that you want here. It needs dynamics, it needs articulation. There's something here.

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F: Likewise, in the composing ... when you're composing yourself, how does your conducting inform the way that you handle range, technical prowess, balance, and particularly metrical groupings, choice of meters, that kind of thing?

B: Okay well, you said to some degree, I would say not a whole lot, but certainly, well maybe if you were taking meters of someone, yeah, obviously, clarity in that case especially with a fast tempo and I've got threes and twos and stuff, what's the clearest way that I can do that that can not only work, but also is going to pull the orchestra together or the ensemble together with a good amount of quality? So a conductor is not like, you know ... even though it probably be more about the pyrotechnics than the quality of it. Somebody told me that, I can't remember but I think it was something about conducting because I think it was hard music. The conductor's jumping around, conducting patterns the other hand and you have to do that, you would use it. He'd write in his music, he was really quite good and he did a really, really good ensemble and stuff like that, but he did not like doing it. He did a really good job conducting work harder in some ways than it needed to be, but there are some pieces that are very, very difficult. Even though, he was an amazing conductor. He worked on a lot of million orchestras, the action is incredible. I still think we've got the best...and he actually, his Mahler is incredible. I still think he's got the best Rite of Spring recording, with the Cleveland Orchestra. It's fantastic. It's so intense, so visceral, hearing it on speakers, when he's not live, but it's also so incredibly clear. The clarity is amazing. I'd recommend you getting yourself a hold of that recording. It's Rite of Spring with , and it's Cleveland Symphony.

F: Nice.

B: Absolutely amazing. The way he writes his music, like, Listuella, or not Othello, but ... What's the name of his big songs like Othello? What is that called? It's so ridiculous of the conductor. On half ... A quarter note equals 40.5, all these really strange, and his meters that are half his meters. It's a quarter of a meter. It's ridiculous to figure out. That's really ... Just take a look at that. That is the hardest piece written to conduct. A lot of conductors have said that. It's one of the hardest pieces. It's also very long, but it's incredibly difficult. Every changing meter, every bar, and the musical gestures, now dividing into three and the seven-eight. It's really, really crazy. For him, he wrote that as like a concerto for himself. It's one than the most difficult pieces to conduct, and very few people do. It's just awful technically, and to the singer it's incredibly difficult rhythmically for everybody. He's challenging himself, you know, showing what he can do for himself, because he was, you know, the guy was amazing. He could conduct any two meters in either hand. Like the four on three ...

F: Right.

B: That kind of thing. Yeah, exactly, no problem. Five against three, the guy was ...

F: Yeah, I remember we practiced that a couple times in conducting. I can do the two on three and three on four ...

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B: I can too... but yeah, beyond that. Yeah, I saw him do five against six for the Mahler. The guy's amazing. He relished that, for sure.

F: When you were conducting the, launching your music ensemble, and when you've programmed for other groups, does being a composer/conductor affect what you program?

B: I don't think too much. I mean, I do obviously, like any conductor, you have to have a good variety, think about ... I might think about conducting something a little bit ... I might think more about if performers have stamina, how difficult is this piece, of course, you know, the usual things. You have to have enough rehearsal time. Is it something you can really in the rehearsals that you have, because we're always limited. Are there things where the ensemble, let's say, my winds are weak or my strings are weak musically or you don't have a big sound, so that, all those kind of technical things do play into what could be happening. Compositionally, I always like to hear, and I think most people do now, a lot of these different colors of musical language with all sorts of expressive qualities, and different types of music has varieties of intention, so there's a good variety in the concert. I think that definitely, thinking in the compositional aspects of the piece will help determine which pieces I program on any given concert.

F: When you're looking at scores for the first time, again kind of that question that I first asked you with the idea of listening, but when you sit down and look at a score, is your first thought, okay, what is this piece of music about? Is this a good piece of music, or do you kind of think right away about, like you said, those challenges that it'll pose for the group and if it's going to be a good fit for the concert and the program?

B: My goal then here, I would say ... Boy. Obviously, I want to field a good piece, as good as any, but I would ... It's tough. I would say that probably at least 50% of determination percent is toward do we really have the time to rehearse it, do we have the players to make this work, and if not, okay, I'll do a harder one and I'll do two more that are a little bit less note-y, where there's less in the shed notes and so on that we're given the time frame that we have. Then again all the performances aren't going to be strong. That make sense?

F: Yes.

B: Okay, good.

F: We kind of get to end with a few fun ones. Are there things that you really love in particular about conducting your own music?

B: I don't know. I wouldn't say I completely love it, actually, because in some ways I'm too close to it. I don't know if you've interviewed anybody else that's said that, but sometimes when I'm conducting my own music, I'm not being as technical as I could be. In other words, I'm not being the conductor. I'm thinking more about composition, and I might think, oh gee, maybe that should be a forte there. I'm starting to think about the composition sometimes as opposed to focusing on the act of success, I'm putting the piece together here. My role is that way.

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F: It seems like ... You said in the beginning, you're primarily a composer. It kind of seems like for you that composer side never completely turns off.

B: I would have to say that's probably true.

F: The next question I was going to ask is are there any particular challenges that you find in conducting your own music.

B: Yes, if I really study. I'm going to be conducting it, which sometimes happens, because I definitely had when I was even an under-, even an after student. I wrote something to conduct, it was so, it was just a lot harder than anything I've ever conducted, and I had to practice that thing like crazy, like it also had these crazy meters, you know, seven-eight, six-eight, two-eight, one- eight. It was my Bartok kind of, which I think ... Yeah, so I said, what was I thinking when I wrote this thing? Sometimes I wasn't actually thinking about how difficult it was going to be and how many cues I was going to have to give every line and so on? How do I show where the line is going, and how I'm going to cue all these changing meters, et cetera? It turned out to be something I really, really had to practice so that when I went to rehearsal I was ready, and it ended up being it didn't get the first kind of read through and tempo. I'm saying, oh God, I hope I can get through ten bars at a time.

F: You never want to mess up your own piece.

B: Yeah, no, exactly. Actually I did write ... One piece I did mess up. I got a meter changing it wrong and it messed up, and we, it's just about how to get back on. I've also conducted ... I've also been in the situation where largely new pieces, not necessarily my own, but where a performer got off and I had to actually shout out a bar number, like "110, 120." Some of that music, it's just, if work, if it's off, you're ruining the piece. It can't like go off. I have done that. I've done that at actually, at new music ensemble. On more than one occasion I had to shout out a bar number, for sure, definitely. It's not uncommon. I heard ... Someone was it. What was it? David Gilbert, who was my conducting teacher, he was great to sit with New York for like a few years. Actually, he could have been the conductor of the orchestra, when he left, but he didn't want that kind of life. I understand why. Anyway, he said there were times when he got unsteady about a passage because there were all these changing meters, not simple meters, but the city orchestra, he did very difficult, to really everyone had to be so in touch and really listening to it, but he could tell that, you know, in the low strings or listening to the high strings and that's where the ambiguity was between the two, and so he had to come up with something on the spot. He basically, they did it twice. They did ... It was only like a twelve and a half inch. He did low strings first, made sure that was clear, did the high strings, and then you put them together, and they found out what the cause was, and then they did it again. Hear that? That's where it's not working, and then they did it. It was something that ended up being. He's obviously with good rehearsal technique, especially music, because that's what ... He conducted all kinds of stuff, but that was one of his specialties. The guy can conduct anything. He's been, you know,

183 an amazing professor. It's probably the most incredibly difficult score. Again, with half meters, you know, five and a half, four, you know, five sixteen, amazing. Those are few and far between.

F: Did you have any closing thoughts on how your as a composer and conductor has influenced both of those skills and hopefully enhanced both of those skills?

B: Yes, I mean, I earlier said, when I'm running a piece, I keep that in the back of my head, especially if I'm writing ... If I'm writing something, I usually like, the ensemble for my writing, I think are they going to be able to do this without a conductor, this particular passage, whatever it is, if there's changing meters or there's really complex stuff, can they actually do it without someone eating time? Sometimes I think I don't want to ... I think I'm going err on the side where I think I'm going to not write something that's music that's going to really strain your ears. I think I'm going to err on the cautious side so I know they'll end up being happy with it as I do it in performance, which is also the way that I will do, you know, for if I'm writing for ensembles that sounds right, right?

F: Mhm.

B: That's that. I would say I do take that into consideration, for sure. I think ultimately the fact that I'm a composer and the fear of. I think that's what we're strong with things that I think besides clarity and technique and rehearsal techniques, being but as a composer I really know how to get inside of a score. I really understand a piece of music from the inside out. A lot of conductor do know, but a lot of conductors don't I think take the time to really go that far and study a score and know what to look for, et cetera, et cetera. The first thing I do, I make a map of the tempi, so where's it relaxing, where's it moving forward, all those kind of things. That's what I do, because when I write a piece, I often do that on my own, too. I'll just map out the tempo, how I want this to move, the ebb and flow of the piece.

F: Thank you very much. I hope you had some fun with the questions.

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Zachary Friedland Interview with Lewis J. Buckley July 10th, 2018

Friedland: Just so you know, this is completely voluntary. You can stop the interview at any time. Um, I just want to make sure that I have your permission to use your name if I want to directly quote you in the document. Buckley: Yeah, you do. F: Awesome. Um, so the first question is, do you consider yourself more composer/conductor or conductor/composer? B: Conductor/composer. F: Okay. And when did you start each thing was well, did one come before the other or did you kind of start around the same time? B: Uh, very, um, sixth grade I wrote the first simple little piece. Um, and by high school I was conducting um, my high school band as a student conducted often conducting my dad's choirs. F: Um, so when you are at a concert, um, do you find yourself listening more to the compositional aspects of the piece or evaluating the performance of the group? B: Uh, evaluating the performance. And that's not just exclusively one or the other.

F: But yeah, that's what you lean towards.

B: Yes. F: And does that question change at all when you're listening to a performance or even a recording of one of your own compositions? B: Good question. Um, I think it does. Sometimes, you know, the thing, we're not catching it online here and maybe we shouldn't be because of the focus of your work is arranging for me, arranging, composing a lot of ways and, and in my arrangements, which I wrote down way more arrangements and transcriptions that I have compositions, uh, in my arrangements, I very often hear things and to be perfectly honest, I say, wow, how in the world did I come up with that? Yeah. I don't know how that answers your question, if at all. F: Yeah. So would you, would you say maybe the first time you listened to a composition or arrangement of yours that kind of more of the self evaluation? B: I think so that's probably fair. Yeah. F: Um, and of course when, whenever I say composition, I refer to composing and arranging. So yeah, feel free to reference that. B: The first time I'm, you're definitely thinking about the arrangement because it to be changed for composition either one.

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F: So getting into, kind of bringing the conducting side into things, how is it different preparing your own score versus preparing someone else's score? B: Not really. F: And um, for someone else's scored again, do you find yourself, do you kind of first look at the composition or do you kinda like jumped right to, you know, how's my group gonna react to this? What are the challenges going to be? Is this a good fit for them? B: Looking at it? F: Yeah. When you first look at someone else's score. B: Say it again…. F: When you first look at somebody else's score, do you first look at or do you first kind of evaluated as a piece of music or do you, for you kind of go right to, you know, what the challenges are going to be for the group, whether it's going to be a good fit. B: I'm assuming you're not talking about music that I've already selected for a given program. If I'm the programming mode than the first, the first thing is, is that a good piece of music and then secondly going to be a good fit for our group. F: I'm just speaking in programming. Do you find that being a composer affects the way you program at all? B: I don’t think so. F: So do you rehearse your own music any differently than you rehearse other people's music on the podium? B: I don't think I do. Ask the players, I suppose. I don't feel like doing it any differently. F: Um, and so do you, do you find it's like, do you find you're able to actually remove yourself from the piece in that moment? B: It isn’t so much a question of removing myself from the piece I'm going to put on conductor mode at that point. I'm just trying to get, the music to work as well as it possibly can with the group that I'm conducting. F: And do you think that you could ever conduct your own piece as if it were someone else's? B: As a conductor? I really don't think conduct my own music substantially differently than I do anybody else's music. F: So kind of a long those lines. Uh, um, when I gave my senior recital in Undergrad, um, for a portion of the concert, I had three band pieces that I wrote and then I conducted them with a group that I've put together students and everything and uh, one of my professors was playing Horn in the ensemble and after a rehearsal I went up to him and I just said, you know, do you have any, do you have any advice on just your take on how this went? And he said, try to think

186 more like the conductor, then the composer. So when you say your, you know, you're thinking like the conductor versus thinking like the composer, um, how are those thoughts different in your mind? B: Um, well, very different. The conductor perspective is how can I get this piece of music to sound as beautiful and well-performing as I possibly can. I've already made presumably all the decisions about whether it's a good enough piece to do. Um, if there are any little changes, I want to make an something just it work better. I've already done that. Uh, it's, it's, it's strictly conducting. I'm not sure I ever think like a composer predominantly when I'm on the podium. F: And um, are there things in particular that you really liked about conducting your own music versus conducting some someone else's music? B: Yeah. I'm very gratified by getting through to my own music with a good group. I always thought that one isn't one of the greatest aspects of being a conductor. The coasts, they're abandoned all those years. I mean, I know many, many composers far better than I who will work their butts off just to get some not very good high school band, play their music and I would write something and the next morning I'd ever played by a professional group. I mean, that was an incredible privilege and I feel the same way about the mat wins. Yup. So in that sense, in the sense of the gratification one gets and hearing ones on music play. Um, no, but as, as far as who I enjoy conducting the actual act of conducting my own music, I, I don't think I do. I think I, I both congesting bear in mind that I am, I knew myself very much more as a conductor then I do a composer. F: And do you find that there are particular challenges to conducting your own music? I mean, it doesn't sound like it based on the fact that you view yourself more as a conductor, but is there anything that's a little more challenging when it's your own piece? B: No, I don't think so. F: Um, so here's Kinda switching gears. Um, where does the composer's job and, and the conductor's job begin? B: At the first rehearsal. F: So conducting how, what's your idea of artistic license and the sense that how, what's your personal way of interpreting what's on the page and then making it your own? B: That I never really thought about it a lot and it's evolved over the years that I've been a conductor. I always, my first effort is always to believe what the composer wanted, for example, I don't screw around with tempos right off the bat. My first step will be to try to make it work the way I think the composer wanted it to work based on what I can see. Having said that, if it doesn't work for me or it doesn't work for the group, I don't hesitate at all to change tempos, interpretations, so forth and so on. And the primary reason for that is that I've seen so many composers, including great ones at the Aaron Copeland's of the world that Igor Stravinsky and people like that. I've seen recordings of them real quick, uh, conducted neuron music at completely different tempos, for example, than the ones they put in the score. And I've had

187 happened to me as a composer, you know, I put a temple on something, especially in the age before we could listen to it on computers. I'll put a tempo down the cell, just fine sitting at my kitchen table, writing the piece, and then I get into rehearsal and I realized this is not. The music doesn't work at that, so I guess the answer is I try hard, I think the composer wanted, but I don't hesitate to change this. I can't make it work for me or for the group. F: And do you, do you teach composition as well? Have you ever like given composition lessons?

B: No.

F:Okay. If you were, if you know, somebody asked you to kind of look at their piece, um, how would your experience as a conductor affect the way you would critique their piece?

B: Well, there's two aspects to that. Why is the technical side. I'm making it to this question later, but I was thinking if Zach asked me how does my conducting informed my composing and how does my composing and formed my conducting to me? For me personally, I don't think the composing does inform my conducting. I think it's the other way around. My conducting my years on the podium helped me a lot when I sit down to write something So this is not a non sequitur. Um, if somebody asked me to look at their score, I'll be looking for two different things. One, is this the piece work, um, is it overbalanced in some way? Um, is there one section that sounds like it quite a bit more development that I see on the page, that sort of thing. It's just the music. It seemed to be a well balanced piece. And then the second part of it is the stuff that jumps out at me that I know is going to cause technical problems in rehearsal and doesn't need to. Um, I don't know if I told you this. I tell everybody because I'm proud of it, but uh, that wins did rite of spring last year and it's a true transcription. It's Marlin Patterson's very painful transcription. How this thing in my life by a magnitude of five, I'm just crazy difficult. Part of the reason it's so difficult is the mixed meter doesn't sound like it looks, you know, extend there doing something, cut it down. So we could do that all day long as long as the music sounds like it looks like in the regular spring you're looking at. But seem to be trolling, determined mix and the classic example is there's this one bar in the middle, there are two very long, makes me read passages and they, the middle of one of them. There's a three eight bar and the only thing in that three, eight bar is a huge single note on the second page. There is a, it's a restaurant, the first and third eighth notes for everybody. And every time I got to that and the first few rehearsals I would give the downbeat and then I hear this huge downbeat and think gam I ain't missing. And I finally figured out I wasn't missing. It's just not where you looked for it. So I look for that kind of thing in scores is, is there anything there it was, you know, crazy range writing, um, the Piccolo and clarinet and extreme range that's never gonna work. Um, rhythms that are written in several ways to be harder to read, um, technical things that I just know are not going to work. That kind of thing I want wandered a bit. But does that answer your question? F: Because it was going to ask about, you know, when you compose, how does your experience as a conductor affect the way you choose metrical groupings, range, deal with technical prowess,

188 balance and says, um, you know, you said, you know, how you're conducting, really informs your composing that, you know, it seems like it does. B: Um, far fewer stupid mistakes in writing because of all the years I've spent on the podium pit fixing other people's mistakes, you know. But that's the way that my, uh, conducting uniforms composing years ago I was, I can't even remember what it was. I was writing something and it was composition, not in arrangement and I got to a certain spot. I mean, you kinda hit a probably with this I'm sure and I just couldn't figure it out. Where the hell did it go from there? And I really struggled with it for a couple of days and I don't know why, but someone along the way, I suddenly said if I were on the podium conducting it, I, it to go from here. So I close my eyes and I actually put my hands up and I left it the last 20 years or so of this piece right up to the part where I was stuck in my hands, knew where the music needed to go next. It was a real revelation to me that there's often, I've used that as a tool when I'm stuck. F: Yeah. So, I mean, it's clear. You definitely feel that being a conductor has allowed you to get into composing and arranging more. Um, do you, is there any way in which you know, you feel that you're composing has helped make you a better conductor or. B: I don't think so. Um, bear in mind, I'll keep repeating this. I, I consider myself a conductor first and and a composer. I’ve done far less composing and all of the things that I had composed. Oh, I've written, I don't know, 25, 26 and buckets, um, many of which had related titles. They were for political purposes and I've been commissioned to write a lot of marches for band celebrating anniversaries and stuff. I'm much less serious composition. Um, so that, that really kind of shapes everything I say when I talk about this stuff. I just don't think of myself and the highly talented composer people like my music and I'm happy with that. But it's, it's, I mean, I'm, I'm a much stronger ranger, I believe. Then composer, F: I want to go back to, I'm talking about, the idea of interpretation for a minute. Because, you know, you described kind of your philosophy about how you handle, choices in rehearsal and I'm just curious, has your interpretation of one of your own pieces or arrangements ever changed by hearing someone else conducted? B: I guess my answer is I can't remember any specific instances where that's been the case, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had been. I can easily picture that happening, you know, sort of a moment of wow, listen to what he or she hears in that piece that I hadn't even done with this. And next time I'm going to remember to bring that out or stretch it or whatever. F: Andwe’re kind of last few questions I did as being a poser, an arranger. I'm Kinda ever affect the way you program, like do you ever make you, do you find yourself, you make a conscience effort to, you know, specifically program new music or music by younger composers? B: Um, my programming sometime sometimes with the primary focus for me when I'm programming for my conductors. For you, how is the audience here? This space, I mean this program, how is this program and the of one piece to the next going back to the audience and the players. That's right.

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F: Um, yeah. And then last question, is there any other ways you feel that being a composer, arranger and a conductor has influenced both of these skills? I mean, I know you've addressed, um, quite a bit already, but just if you have any other closing thoughts on. B: No, I can't give you anything specific to back this up. The general feeling that I have, I just feel like a much more complete musician. I know that being composed for ranger. Does that? Yeah. So my understanding on the podium of how music works, um, and when I study scores that are going to be conducting, certainly as I said earlier, my primary focuses, how to make them sound the best I can, but I think having so many years as I conduct as a composer and arranger when I'm studying a score to conducted, I really do think it adds depth to my ability to figure out what really matters and, and how things are going to go because I'm like, here's a perfect example. There might be some little piece of thematic material that wouldn't matter at all. To me as a conductor, they wouldn't have any significant impact on how the piece plays itself for the audience. But because I know it's an important little thing, I'll bring it out in a way that is much more based on what I know as a writer than it is, is what I know is a conductor is a perfect example and old manual, mysterious. He happened to know that I do. Okay. I saw an interview that he did about the piece and one of the things he said in the interview was that he was trying to figure out how to make a piece that had been written to so many times. I mean over a text that had been written so many times, how do I make this important moving piece that doesn't sound like just one more setting of this Christmas modern material. And he said, what I decided to do was keep everything within the scale of the keys I was writing and he said the one exception to that is when I got to the part where I had to somehow find a way to convey Mary's anguish at her son's having been killed. He said, I went to. I wrote that the person note in the piece that doesn't fall within the scale of the case. And I had already. I had already heard that note. All this is important. I saw this interview after I had been kind of rehearsing it. Um, I had already heard that note and realized that it mattered for some reason, but all I was doing was just leaning into it a little bit just to put a little line for society, asking you to lean into it. When I heard what he had to say about it, I built into it more carefully and from a little bit farther ahead and equip more weight on it when we got to it. And I even used it as a m. I used that before I, before we played it in the concert, I actually talked to the audience about that and told him that was and then played it for them, I don't know, five or six measures around it. So that was a situation where hearing the composer talked about his own music, informs what I did as a conductor and it was because I'm a writer too. I hadn't real respect for what he was saying. F: Do you find that because you've been composing and arranging and kind of breaking down scores, do you find that like when you do your score study, like you were able to kind of get to, you know, Kinda like get to these things faster? Like kinda like figure out, okay, well this is, he's developing this material here. B: I guess I can really tour. When I became the director of the coast guard band, I was just 27 years old and I immediately went out and I was, I was chosen I think six months before I actually started and I need it, like went out and started studying and conductor first with the, uh, a conductor does Springfield mass Anthony. And then after a year with him, I studied for a year with Franklin Keesee up at New England conservatory. Um, but I also took workshops and one

190 of them was with John Painter. It was for a week and one of the things we covered was how to approach a score and the conductor and to this day, that general methodology that he taught us has guided how I approach a score. So that is like that. My answer your question is that the predominant way of approach, I mean that's the predominant perspective that I have in for, um, now when it gets to that point in the score study where you're really getting into the weeds now, not just looking at the field at that point. I think my writing, the fact that I know writer may very well informed some of the decisions I make about interpretations and um, and what to bring out. F: Well, unless you had anything else, those are all the questions. So thank you very much for participating. And um, yeah, I hope you look forward to reading the document and kind of seeing where this goes.

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Zachary Friedland Interview with Mark Camphouse June 4th, 2018 Friedland: So this is completely voluntary research. Can recuse yourself at any time. Do I have permission to use name and position in document itself? Camphouse: Don’t see why not

F: First question: Would you consider yourself more composer/conductor or conductor/composer?

C: I consider myself a musician.

F: When did you start doing each – one or the other. Did you compose start composing first or conducting first?

C: Back to original question. There are some days when I feel like a composer/conductor. Other days definitely feel like conductor/composer. I want to emphasize, specifically, I don’t regard myself as a composer only, or a conductor only, or an educator only. I am a musician. I think to be a musician is a very noble calling. It’s something I’ve always had a passion for. Frequently we compartmentalize who we are. I’m a trumpet player, or a pianist, or a flutist, or conductor. The thing we have to be dedicated to is the art of music and then within areas of specialization we have, then that’s a whole other matter. And, it’s a very important matter. But to me, it’s all about being a musician first and then be our areas of expertise second.

F: Yeah, that’s a very important point. I kinda want to go off that, cause I feel like, um, a lot of undergraduate music programs really kinda of emphasize that being a musician. You take a huge range of courses, you’re encouraged to take electives and everything, and I feel like it’s really important for graduate programs to emphasize that as well, and so when you work with your grad students is there a way you that emphasize that philosophy in your teaching, whether you’re teaching someone composition or teaching someone conducting?

C: Well possibly. Case in point, I think composers should have the ability to conduct the music and sadly, a lot of male composers do not have that ability. I think, to the extent possible, conductors should have the ability to create something no matter how good it is, so look for their solo instrument, or even the fragment of a piece and have someone else conduct it. Learn what it’s like to take the creative process as composer and then break that down as a lead creator of music making. Composers need to understand performance and conductors need to understand creativity. The number one objective, the number one priority, of a conductor should be to get into the mind of the composer. Right?

F: Yup.

C: How?

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F: Yeah, um, definitely, I fully agree. The second part of that question, when did you start composing and conducting. Did one come before the other? Did you kinda start at the same time?

C: Composing came before conducting. And creative ability in my case when I started taking piano lessons so composition came first. I think my first conducting experience was, as for a lot of kids, in high school with the band or with an ensemble. Those are opportunities we always remember.

F: Yeah, definitely

C: And they’re important opportunities. It’s part of developing leadership. As a conductor, and as a teacher it’s leadership is very important. I can remember conducting some early pieces of mine that I wrote for brass ensemble that were very very important moments in development.

F: Yeah, I distinctly remember the first time I conducted my high school band. It was also the moment I decided I wanted to be a music major. It was a feeling like no other, you know. The realization that I did not want to wake up every day and do anything except this. Moving on to the next question. When you are at a concert, in the audience, and you’re listening to a group, and you’re listening to a piece, maybe that you haven’t heard before, do you find yourself listening more to compositional aspects of the music or more evaluating the performance of the group?

C: Without hesitation, without question, my favorite concerts are to hear the performance. Obviously, both are very important but there’s a pecking order - one goes to concerts because of music without question. Even when I’m adjudicating, I can’t help it, it’s just the way I’m wired. The music always comes first. And then of course, you have to very quickly check the rhythm and provide commentary about intonation and quality and rhythmic precision and craft. But, yeah.

F: How is preparing your own score any different than preparing someone else’s score?

C: I think I take more care preparing someone else’s music than my own, quite frankly. Uh, I think it’s probably from the get go. So, I think that I owe it to the other composer, whether it’s a still composer, or a deceased composer or whatever the case may be, I look to the composer to do my best to understand the structure, understanding the harmonic language, yeah, I think I probably do more homework on other people’s music than my own.

F: When you said that you know your own piece better than the others, do you almost feel like the process of writing the piece is kind of score study within itself? Would that be an apt comparison?

C: Yes, most certainly. How can you not. There’s this piece I’ve been working on right now. I’ve been living with this piece for 3 or 4 months, in various stages of incubation, starting with the first sketches, the piano score, and now I’m orchestrating from the very first sketch. Yeah, how can you not. It becomes such an intense part of you during the creative process. And, someone

193 who calls himself a conductor or a band director, it stands to reason that most composers, my teacher John Pinkert was a composition major. He got both of his degrees, his bachelors and masters were in composition. And, I think any conductor who has knowledge of composing has a distinct advantage when it comes to score study and how a piece is put together. Doesn’t that make sense?

F: Yeah. We’ll go over this again later because I have some other questions that relate to that, but in my own pieces, I know all the little details, I know all the secrets of the work and so when I listen, sometimes I actually listening for smaller things. A follow up question to that, has your answer to the question to score study changed over the course of your career and your experience conducting your own music or has it pretty much stayed the same?

C: I think that the experience conducting my own music has been pretty constant. How I approach the music by other composers, I think my score preparation has changed; hopefully it’s matured and deeper. I don’t overmark scores as much as I used. Yes, once technique improves with age and ability to communicate with an ensemble, both with silent gesture and verbally, you become more economical. You become more economical with gesture. I find that I’m writing shorter pieces now, although the one that I’m working on now is a new piece. When I first started writing large ensemble pieces for an orchestra or symphony, the pieces had to be somewhere between 15 and 25 minutes – it’s stupid. I think the main thing now is [something], technique and to say what you want to say and doesn’t have to be 15 or 20 minute pieces and still be deeper and profounder so sometimes less is more.

F: definitely, so you said you mark your own scores less the longer you’ve been conducting. How much do you mark up your own scores?

C: When it comes to my own pieces, not very much. Changes and differences in texture, but those almost really don’t have to be put onto the page in reds or because you know what’s coming because you labored over it so much. I don’t have to think about the structure as much. I don’t have to think about pacing or proportions as much with my own music. But, I think I’ve gotten better in terms of understanding things about other composers. I looked in one of my books here, the whole piece preparation, pacing, proportion, and passion, those are the four, I think, headline stories, conductors have to read and have going for them in conducting other people’s music. It think there’s an ethical point to it. I think we should leave composers who are actual conductors while we conductors that are also composers I think we owe it to other composers to make sure the work we are doing does justice to the other composers even more so than we are doing justice to ourselves.

F: Your piece like a movement for Rosa, which I worked on with Dr. Mikkelson is a very complex piece to conduct. I mean that in a good way. You have a lot of interesting things with time signature, interesting textural changes, very rich, thick textures, when you look at that score how does that feel different to you as far as – I mean does that feel simpler to you when you look at the score?

C: I don’t see Rosa as being a terribly complex piece at all. I think if Rosa has a significance, it’s not so much my music as it is the significance of the person. Who, uh, could use the mark up for

194 the better. It’s not about me, it’s about her. But, I think my concept of tempe but that may change, but I think a lot of young conductors, I think the piece is 91 or 92, that’s like 25 years ago, and I would hope that in a quarter of a century that one’s ideas in interpretation, would change to a certain extent. And, we have what I call composer tempos. I compose at the piano and what you play through can really be very different once you get to the podium and conduct a real ensemble. So, you’ve got that to think about, which again, non-composers can’t appreciate that to the extent that we can. I would hope that uh our views and our interpretations after a quarter of a century, will change, which – yeah, and they have.

F: Yeah, I’ve definitely experience that. Actually, the longer I’ve been composing, the more I experience that with not only being on the podium, but working with other conductors, I’ll go into rehearsal and I’ll hear it and I’ll say you know what, let’s try that faster or let’s try that slower and then when I’m on the podium, it’s kinda something that I do automatically, sometimes without even thinking about it because it’s more about when I’m conducting I’m finding a feel for my own music. Um, so, have you ever experienced this conducting one of your own pieces for the first time have you ever made a tempo adjustment in the middle of rehearsal, from what was on the page without realizing it?

C: Occasionally, occasionally. A lot of conductors, a lot of performers think that articulation are very minor details of the harmony and melody and but it’s important. You know, sometimes when getting the right tempo [something] miscalculate but not very often because we want to make sure we’re exactly where we think we should be at that point in time. And then, maybe a couple of weeks, a couple of months, and surely a couple of years later our views will change - there’s a useful change about that. When it comes to a career reading of a piece of mine very seldom is there a miscalculation on orchestration. I’ve been doing this a long time and hopefully we get it right the first time, - not always, but the vast majority.

F: My next question, and this question came from the reason this whole project exists, uh, when I did my senior recital in undergrad, for my senior composition recital at URI for the second half of the concert, I had three band pieces which I composed, and then I conducted the group. And Brian Cardanay, was playing French horn in the ensemble and I went up to him after and asked him if he had any advice and he said “try to think more like the conductor than the composer” referring to how the rehearsal went. So, when you are rehearsing your own music, first, do you think you rehearse your own music differently than others, and do you think there’s a time to think like the composer and a time to think like the conductor?

F: I don’t think we necessarily need to think like a composer or think like a conductor. Need to think like a musician. We compartmentalize too much. When I’m on the podium, particularly in a rehearsal I’m thinking like the composer. When I am composing a piece, I am thinking a lot like a conductor and a lot like a performer ….how can it be played better? How can it flow better? How can I make it easier and more logical for the player? How can I deal with this fermata and make it easier for the conductor?

F: Yeah.

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C: A lot of composers don’t get that. When you compose you think like a conductor. When you conduct, you think like a composer. It’s that simple.

F: Great. How are these thoughts different in your mind? C: In terms of understanding the creative process, they cannot understand it like we do, because it is not a part of who they are. It does not mean they are not a fine conductor and a fine teacher, but as composers we have a leg up on the competition. F: Definitely. So in reference to my question, about how these thoughts are different in your mind, I guess what you are saying is, they are not. C: There are certain basic things when you are on the podium. I can remember attending the premiere for ’s third symphony at the Chicago symphony back in the 70s when I was a student at Northwestern and it was pathetic. The guy could not conduct his way out of a paper bag. And in fact, they had to have an extra rehearsal for the Chicago symphony. For the Chicago Symphony to call an extra rehearsal would be sacrilege. I saw Mr. Copeland three times – not good with a stick. But he was a great composer and a great musician – in a way. That being said, I think composers must acquire good conducting skills along the way. And conductors must acquire a deeper appreciation of the creative process. And there’s no better way to acquire a greater appreciation of creative process than trying it yourself. And it will give conductors a totally different perspective on what their responsibilities are, again, with the responsibilities of the composer to know what the responsibilities of the conductor are. The great Austrian conductor Erich Leinsdorf titled his book, “The Composer’s Advocate.” The one responsibility of the conductor is to be the composer’s advocate. Too many conductors are more concerned with looking good on the podium than making sure their performance is an account of the composer. That’s much more important than, “Boy, I really conducted that piece great.” What was the performance like overall? Were you true to the composer? That’s the most important thing. F: Moving into a different area when you get a score you’ve never seen before and you’re looking through it, and you’re thinking about programming, are you looking first at the composition itself or are you thinking more is this going to be a good fit for my group? What challenges will this pose for my group? C: Yes, yes, and yes. In the educational environment we have to believe in the piece if we are going to conduct. We have to believe in the piece if we are going to teach it to our students. I’ve never conducted a piece I didn’t believe in. You really don’t want to do that. But it’s important, no matter how great the piece, if you don’t have the horses to pull it off and do it justice, then you shouldn’t do it. So does your ensemble have the ability to do it justice and do justice to the composer? That’s a very valid question, a very important question. Sure it’s easy to get excited and think what a great piece and then you have to dig a little deeper and think can I really do it justice? Do I have sufficient rehearsal time? There are a ton of factors that have a ton of impact on the music itself, no question about that.

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F: I want to go back for a minute because you’ve referenced how interpretations change over time and you mentioned how Rosa is a quarter of a century old. Has your interpretation of your own music ever changed by hearing someone else conduct it? C: Of course, it was Ray Cramer. You know Mr. Cramer? F: I do. C: Director of bands emeritus at Indiana University. F: I was lucky to meet him a couple of Midwest clinics ago. C: He was a wonderful conductor and a wonderful man. He conducted my composition “Whatsoever Things.” He conducted the premiere with the Bands of America and he also took it on the road when we went to Europe in 1997. I saw Ray at the Midwest Clinic 3 years after that. And I saw him in the hallway during a break and I said, “I need to talk to you. I have a problem with you.” And I kind of made it sound like I was upset with him. He was really taken aback and he said, “Mark, what’s the problem, what have I done?” I really had him going and I said, “Ray, the problem I have with you is that I’m beginning to like your interpretations of my music more than my own.” And you know sometimes that’s the case. And we composers can learn from other conductors. Boy, what a neat idea, why didn’t I think of that? We compose the piece but another conductor may do something interpretatively that makes us think, “hey, I really like that! Why didn’t I think of that? I think I’ll try that.” So, yeah, sometimes someone else’s interpretation really gives us ideas and that’s the great thing about being in and the great thing about being in higher education. Sometimes we learn from others and sometimes we learn from our students. F: I love seeing how other people treat my music and seeing the reaction that different people get from certain things. I think it’s just as important really to let someone else interpret it. And so the opposite of that question would be has another composer ever told you what you told Ray Cramer that you gave them a whole new interpretation of their work? C: I’m not sure about that. I’ve had some very, very flattering e-mails and letters from composers. F: So, moving into a different area, when you are giving someone a composition lesson, do you ever find that your experience as a conductor plays a strong role in how you critique and what you say about their piece? C: Sure, stands to reason, because I think when we study other composers’ scores we can learn a lot and get to the heart of the matter a lot quicker and I think we are trained to know what to look for and what to find particularly with some student compositions that tend to be more streamlined and less complex. So, yes, the elements of being a conductor sure do come in handy because we are looking for the craft of the composer and various compositional devices, important points of arrival, important textural changes. So yes, the domain of the conductor is very much the domain of the composer as well. It’s a domain of good teaching, absolutely.

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F: In your own compositional process, and I know you’ve kinda touched on this before, but when you are composing and choosing metrical groupings, and you’re dealing with range or technical balance or prowess, how does your experience on the podium influence your choices? C: Well, it’s an important interrelationship. When one composes, what they are ultimately doing is studying the score of a piece they like. I think one of the important things conductors need to do is not necessarily get hooked on band music only. I’ve probably written a little too much band music myself over the past years. When the orchestra professor asked me to write, it was great to finally write a piece for orchestra again. I just finished a piece for English horn and piano and it was delightful to write for that wonderful instrument that is used so much in symphonic band. So I think it’s important that we try to diversify our listening habits as much as possible. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been on the road as a guest conductor and I get in the host’s car when he or she takes me back from the school to the hotel after 7 or 8 hours of band rehearsal and then they will put in a CD of their music on the stereo system and I just want to scream. That’s just ODing and I love band music but sometimes I want to listen to a nice choral piece. So what we listen to has a very deep impact on what kind of musician we are. It’s an important thing. F: I found in my experience going from undergrad to masters to doctorate, and I don’t know if this is an experience you share, I love writing band music. That’s what got me into composing. But I felt the best strides I made as a composer were actually writing chamber music. C: Yes. F: I think that’s kinda where the chops are because you’re stripping down a lot. C: Right F: By the time you’re just down to your 3 to 5 instruments you have to have good balance, you have to have good counterpoint, so that was my experience. So next question is where does the composer’s job end the conductor’s job begin, and what is your idea of artistic license? C: Well, I don’t think there’s a beginning and an end to what composers do and what conductors do. It’s a dialog that should go on as long as possible and they should learn from each other. So, here again we’re talking about composers in one corner and conductors in another corner. Everything that I’ve done, including the national young composer, young conductor mentor project that I founded in 2000, everything I do is dedicated to bringing composers and conductors closer together. When you bring the creative force closer with the recreative force the only creative individuals in music, truly creative, are composers. Right, that’s just the way it is and I’m preaching to the choir with you, and I assume you believe that too. There are some conductors and some performers that kind of get offended when I say that. And of course I don’t mean to offend anybody but it’s not the same. It’s a very different thing. And that’s why conductors and performers need to be so dedicated to being the composer’s advocate as Leinsdorf would say. So, it’s all about serving the composer. And if we serve the composer well we can also serve our students well even when teaching a simple grade 2 or 3 piece the right inspiration can turn that into a grade 5 or 6 piece.

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F: Do you ever find it harder to remove yourself from one of your own pieces and could you ever conduct your own piece as if it were someone else’s? C: Probably not, because it’s not. F: Ok, yeah. C: Conducting your own music is really special, particularly when you are working with an outstanding group. It’s such a privilege to have the opportunity to bring to life something that you’ve labored over for many months. F: Yes. C: It’s a real privilege. Some conductors conduct an entire program of their own music. But I’ll tell you, an all Camphouse program would be hell. That’s called dead programming. I think all Beethoven is dead programming. Or all Tchaikovsky, and I adore Beethoven and Tchaikovsky and respect them tremendously. But when we formulate good programming we have to think if it’s going to be good for the students and good for the audience. Programming is an art within itself. And when you do a programmatic piece you have to really believe in the subject matter, whether it be an event or a person, a great piece of literature, whatever the case may be. And you’ve gotta do your homework. You have to do research on that. And you’ve gotta do this long before you start sketching the piece. At least that’s what I do. F: Yeah. C: So, yeah, l love conducting my own music. It’s just there are some composers who are conductors who will program one piece of theirs in every concert. Woof! With the George Mason wind symphony, I like to do one Camphouse piece every other year. So students who are working on a bachelors degree for four years will play two Camphouse pieces; one every other year. I think that’s sufficient because I think it’s important for our students to play under the direction of a composer. It’s a different perspective. F: So my next question is the opposite of that. Are there any particular challenges you find in conducting your own music? C: I don’t think there are any real challenges, but I conduct other people’s music from memory more frequently than my own. And it’s something that Frances McBeth told me once, he said, “Mark, be careful because we all have little things in our music that are easy to mess up.” So that’s one thing about conducting my own music. I don’t have time to sufficiently study my own scores enough to conduct it from memory as much as I’d like. Because a piece cannot be conducted that is 99% memorized. It must be 100, it must be cold. So I think that’s a challenge in conducting my own music. You want to present it with a freshness and you hope you’ve picked a piece that works with the group’s abilities when you are a guest conductor coming into a group you don’t know but yes, I love conducting my own music but no more than one piece on a program when I’m on the road. Any more than that would be crossing a line there. F: And so my final question, I know we’ve already hit on a lot things, but did you have any other thoughts on how being a composer and a conductor influences both of those skills?

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C: I think the two are inextricably linked. The composer inspires the conductor. The Conductor gives unique insights to the piece from which the composer benefits. It’s all connected. Good performers get into the mind of the composer. Good conductors, good players, good singers – it’s all about the composer. And again, the other example when I’m on the podium I’m thinking like a composer. When I’m composing a piece, I’m thinking like the conductor and the performer. It’s all connected. There’s too much compartmentalization in our profession, especially in higher education. Too much emphasis on specialization. We are musicians. And I don’t like to refer to myself as a composer or a conductor or an educator. I am a musician, I’m all of those things and it’s called being a musician. And, it’s a very noble calling.

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Zachary Friedland Interview with Roger Cichy June 12th, 2018

Friedland: Um, so as you know, obviously before we begin, this is completely voluntary. If you want to stop at any time, go ahead. I'm just want to make sure it's okay that I can use your name if I want to quote you in anything.

Cichy: *Nods Yes*

F: All right, awesome. Um, so first question is, do you consider yourself more composer/conductor or conductor/composer? C: I’ll have to say conductor/composer, because going back to my roots and that regional news, two degrees in education. So composition kind of came out of a process, but because I've had those careers as an educator, that's probably why it's a conductor composer. F: Do you remember like what you started doing first? C: Oh yeah. I like right now I tell people I'm on my fourth career because I started out I really wanted to be director. I had a great experience in high school and so I went to Ohio state so I can be a real band director. And I did and I ended up before years and then went back to Grad school. I was thinking I'd go back to public school teaching and it turned out that I walked right in the kitchen, but in that process, um, I started to get more and more interested in arranging and composing event. I'm kind of a weird thing because I actually started the whole formal education school early, um, started back in kindergarten, first grade. So when I got my undergraduate degree I was only, um, and I just felt awkward to teach high school students that were only like three or four years older than I. C: So what I did is they had started a jazz studies program. Now you can go two routes or performance or composition. And I think with just composition was more broad based. It wasn't just focused on the jazz idiom, it was focusing more on, that was a kind of a tech term. But I mean I took studio score and I took, you know, things related to the music business type of thing. Um, and I just think that it was another graduate so I got my undergraduate but I stayed an extra year just to give myself a little more distance from the students I would be teaching. So that's kinda what I began to competition part of the things I'm a little bit, I never finished a degree but I took a bunch of courses which were right, you know, and then I got the job after that and uh, but dabbling competition quite a bit until I got to college and of course teaching a college you're expected to do scholarship and that position is the creative endeavors. So that got me through.

F: Awesome. Um, so when you're at a concert and you're listening to a performance, do you find yourself more evaluating the composition as piece of music or pay more attention to the performance of the group? C: I mean, you're always listening for you love to hear a performance that is just long, but that rarely happens and it's not that I'm listening for mistakes and this is his and I want a piccolo

201 players out to me and stuff like that. I mean, that just gets in the way of performance. I'm not evaluating them as far as the climate third clients were behind the stuff like that. But that stuff's noticeable. Honestly. What I, myself, I focus quite a bit on his love. Total Cardio colors, Nan. So I'm listening for a lot of total colors because when I hear a large ensemble, I mean, that's what I like to feature large insolvent works is that I've been low the palette of colors now I'd like to hear what other people do with their palette of colors, you know, um, and I'll get annoyed some time because there might be a piece that I'll, and this happens a lot with when I listen to Beethoven or something like that, but I'll be creating drum parcel again, xylophone. It'd be great hero a why didn't they put a Tam Tam? So I, you know, they just didn't have that, um, extensive use of percussion because also we discovered with the percussion stuff percussionist, now saxophone. But what I tell people how to go back and do it all over again, I'd be progression. But the thing about it is that I, you know, it's interesting to listen to colors and where there is a shortage in percussion and just imagine the possibilities of what's going on. So I tend to kind of recomposed the music is being played by piano, xylophone or you know, put some tailoring stuff. That's kind of what I listened to more of this how culture news because it's just a little responsibility.

F: Um, so question that you just answered, how does that change when you were listening to a performance or even just a recording of one of your own pieces and to the things I'm listening to obviously how close it comes to my intentions, but I'm also listening to, if that's not the case, where is the problem? Is the problem that it was, it communicated quickly which means on my path because music notation of simple instructions and did not indicate tempo wise or style wise or dynamic. No, correctly. I'm fighting this or is it just saying they are not that mature group to handle the delicacies of the stuff? Right. So that's where I'm listening for a lot of. And, you know, occasionally I'll book it for myself, I could say, you know, I think I ruled on temple here. I should, the piece is dragging, but I didn't really put any indication of the perception. So that's kinda what I'm listening for. F: Um, and does that change at all from, you know, maybe listening to a premiere versus, you know, listening to performance of a piece that you wrote 10 years ago or 20 times? C: No, not really mean. I think what the premier is… F: Like there's a self evaluation play, a bigger role in the premier? C: Well, I know how the piece sounds. You have to compose them. Reason them up, get the ID. What's supposed to say when people say, you know, to hear the piece for the first time. I've heard it many times in my head when I wrote, you know, but um, I would say the property people. Okay. You know, I mean a lot of differences, you know, a lot of groups, especially in educational setting, they might want it. Conductors might want to listen to this recording. It's fine. Record is of a piece and they had referred to where youtube clip or something like that. I mean there's not exist on the premier group. Yeah. So and, and um, believe it or not, there's a lot, lot of conductors that are kind of intimidated because they don't have that as a tool. No. So they, they feel a little more than him, just a couple of them for them to try to figure out if it's a piece of this already been done and recorded, something like that. They have that tool. Is it.

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F: And do you think as a composer, would you say that helps you when you know, maybe tackling and the premier of a new work, do you think being, what does media composer kind of help you feel more comfortable with being able to just conduct a new piece without having heard the recording or someone else's work? C: Yeah. Gosh, I don't have any new pieces. Someone else's. Do you think it would hypothetically or. I don't know. I was thinking it would not be myself. I'm just trying to think how to justify that to what other people go through when they have to piece it together for the first time. F: Um, so kind of changing over to score study, uh, do you, how do you study your own scores versus the way you study someone else's scores? Is there any difference? C: I think I need to look at is I need to figure out because I, I do a lot of, oh that's some complicated situations and we're certain instruments have material that needs to be better play. I need to have a fixed size. I might say, Oh, this melody is played here. You might not remember that I haven't with score with B flat clarinet . So how do you refresh my mind? So that's, that's what I do. I do want to score scores. Obviously I don't have to analyze chords and melody and female material and phrases and stuff like that because it's not great. So it's in my head, something like that. So. But you know, what's embarrassing is that when I go to a rehearsal and I and I know where something's supposed to happen, where I can't find that person around the, the we're trying to figure out who do I give that materials that you know, I know I put accountability there, but I forgot who I have it too. So that's what I have to go through. It's just mark things in the score where certain things are. But be the same thing as if you're a different piece, you'd still want to all about data, you know, we all think is starting with someone else's worked. I have to go through with you all the material harmonic structure, the motive. F: And would you rehearse your own piece the same way you were to rehearse someone else's piece? C: I think pretty much. I mean the only thing different is, is I think I can, I enjoy. I think people enjoy having me, especially while either do a composer residency or do a premier or something like that. People, it's the entire process. It's just not. It's a new piece of music. It's habit. A composer coming in and having a composers share ideas and thoughts and in the concept of the piece. So to me, that's half of presenting a piece to a new ensemble, but I have not worked with us. Have an opportunity where I really can't do that that much. I can study a piece in the. It exists the parameters other than that. Yeah. But I can't get as deep because creating the piece of myself a little personal, I can share that with, you know, um, so, and I've learned over many, many years that, that uh, you know, working with ensembles a lot of times to get them to play what you want is to nod musical verbiage that gets them. C: And that's I think important to talk about of piece and maybe what this piece is supposed to reflect, what it's supposed to, you know, some metaphor is supposed to represent or anything like that. Because I have a recording of Copeland in person, Appalachian Spring with a, I don't know when they recorded back in the seventies at kind of a rare recording and I noticed he uses a lot of non musical adjectives to describe what he's trying to get, you know. And then one time he stops

203 and says, this is David, this is the barn dance place. Like it doesn't say, you know, I'm more animated or autumn, October, something like that. It says it's a barn dance. So, you know, again, I think that's the cool thing about this, to talk to them level that kind of removed the reasonable language vocabulary and talked about what the pieces you know reflects. F: I mean, so, so would you say that, you know, do you feel that being a composer kind of allows you to think about that non musical verbiage in a different way than maybe someone who hasn't delved into creative side as much time score? C: I think so. I mean a lot of people that grab the score the first and they look at what, what's the key, what's the title of your stuff like that? And, and you know, but no, just think about why was this piece written word, what was the impetus of this work, you know, what kind of personal issues are there with this piece that has a piece explaining this by composer or just in program notes or something and people will write, um, articles, whatever I've done a piece or an aisle with a composer's insight that series of books or the teacher band, orchestra, Jazz through performances. Another way of getting some of that, although a lot of kind of, I need to say first time I had a piece done with that, it was pretty amazing because I haven't a real interest in a real conversation with the person. The author that was writing hi pieces now I didn't know about that. They just get, you know, the delighted about and they're just coming, coming from a blank slate and not even approaching me as a composer about the piece. I thought that's kind of bizarre when you're trying to really illustrate this piece beyond the score, but you're not really bothered to call the composer up the top about the piece. I just think that's really bizarre. Um, so, and of course as a conductor, because I know the vast collecting lessons and that I studied with Craig Kirkoff who was at Ohio state. It was amazing, you know, there's a lot of, a lot of that. Um, as far as collecting, and this was all before the Internet. I'm collecting all kinds of materials on a piece of music. So pretty do. I did Chester when I was there, did it just for each one of us chose a piece and we print up a bunch of stuff, you know, just amazing to see what kind of resources were available, what other kind of articles have been written about it and someone breaking that, breaking it down from a theoretical standpoint. Some of breaking regular down for my political history, historical standpoint to what that piece represents. I don't talk about that influence of it and it would just, you've got, we'd have folders of all this information, which is amazing. A lot of us can get online now and you have the options of having to see some performances like the benefit of something like that. So I think it's a little easier to score something nowadays is proposed as a conducted. I think you have more tools, but that's what we used to do, like that. It's just almost pieces, you know, you know, someone would do some of the, the whole Suite and found the handwritten manuscript to map. So we put that out. It's was, it was, um, probably demand at that point. So, so I have so fiber connect, that piece I have management by can resort to, as a risk score as a sport. Um, interesting collections. Now that's what you do and ever, if I ever conducted piece again, I go back to that folder and kind of relearn that piece of jewelry. Not necessarily learn that kind of…. F: Refresh.

C: Yeah. Yeah.

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F: Um, so staying on the subject of rehearsal and this is kind of what spawned this whole project for my senior recital in Undergrad at Uri for the second half I had three band pieces and I put the group together and I was conducting all these pieces. Um, and Brian Carney was playing horn in the ensemble, so I wasn't up to him after. One of the rehearsals and I said, you know, how did it go? Do you have any advice? And he said, try to think more like the conductor than the composer. Um, and so my question to you would be, do you think there is a time to think like the conductor and a time to think like the composer? And if so, how were those thoughts different in your mind? C: Well, let me back up and ask you a question. When he said think more like the conductor than the composer, how did you interpret that? F: At the time, I interpreted it as, you know, I knew I knew those pieces so well because I wrote them. I knew every little detail. I knew exactly what I wanted. Then I think just the other day when I interviewed Scott Boerma, um, you talked about how as composers were always chasing that perfect performance, that perfect recording. Um, and so I think I was yes, very focused on these little details that I wanted to hear in the music. And you know, it also might have been just because, um, it was, that was in 2012. So it was six years ago now, um, so, you know, I think I may have been losing sight of the big picture and you know, and kind of maybe not focusing, maybe I was focusing more on what I wanted to hear versus what the ensemble needed me to say are needed me to show. Um, but, you know, I've kinda just thought a lot about that over time. C: So my, my thinking on that is that conducting is warranted as another instrument. Um, because when you play this, you got all these physical things you have to do besides the mental process. And so connectedness is the same thing. She's just sort of an instrument and I think what happens, the made the comment he made and the reason is that we know the music, but we can't communicate through our body as a conductor because we just haven't developed conducted insurance. Does that make sense? You know, I took no wherever I went back to Grad school to several, uh, events conducting, you know, and conducted each one of those things. Like there's never, never reach the top know. You're always trying to improve that and um, and it's true, I, someone said that I feel strongly feel that it's a second instrument and I disagree with some of the colleges only have one or two semesters were conducted because that's not enough to learn. And so I, I, and I have a couple times, but they don't have to be careful where you get bogged down because you're conducting not there and you're not communicating then others, what do you think you're doing physically? It's not really communicating what you want. That's the problem with a lot of proposed conductors. And I see some people, I, have you ever heard of the Virginia I'm conducting with supposedly a composed can, digital new music symposium. It's usually advertising a lot in my leg or something or residuals every, every year they have a conducting a composer symposium and so they form a collegiate all-star band out of the schools in Virginia and they have hosted a lot of their colleges innovate. They choose like five composers each year and the composers come in and make it to conduct the work, you know? Um, and I felt bad because when I did it, um, I could conduct terrific and find that because I had to train them to be conducted those composers that were terribly uncomfortable in the podium because they just

205 don't have the tools conducting tools to be able to conduct. So they knew their work on since or what they know. Yeah. But they didn't quite understand how to present it physical. That's typically what it is, you know, having a physical illness just like an um, and I've seen and learned a lot when I did a thing on do back then it was when Russell and Rick wanted to bring in conductor/composers. And so, and I've been through a lot of these things because it seems like there's about five of us that could chose to do the survey time of college, decides to do that and go that route. It's, it's, um, frank ticheli myself, David Gillingham. I'm the guy at Virgina schools and there's one more, it seems like because. Yeah, because we're all, you know, either college conductors besides or former conductors and composers and we know how to conduct a meal, how to rehearse, and that's, it's kind of interesting because I've seen composers crash and burn, trying to conduct her own stuff. Now, you know, that's the thing is that, I don't know when you've gone through the critical, but Lsu had particular conducting classes.

F: I took lessons with Dr Nicholson. Okay. I studied with Gene for about three years. Um, I felt very calm and that's the thing when, when Brian said that I felt very comfortable up there, you know, um, I think performance went well, um, because I had been working on it for awhile and I always knew that I loved conducting. Um, I just think, you know, maybe I just again, like you said, you know, I was still developing, you know, that still learning that instrument and I'm just kinda maybe hadn't found the balance yet. C: Um, so, you know, that's the case, you know, conducting this aisle, do you think, what do you believe in general? More composers should be learning conducting? C: Well, I feel more composers and you can do I, I don't agree with, with a lot of the curriculum that composers go through because as I tell people I work with students, stuff like that. There's, there's three things that I like I attribute to my success as a composer. One of them is my degrees are in music education, so I had to take all of the technique classes so I didn't study the two of them. I haven't played the Tuba to some degree. I didn't studied the clarinet I haven't declared yet. So there's a whole different thing when you've got your hand on instruments. And all that. Because the music education to be able to teach me, that'd be one.

F: I took the methods classes in Undergrad to be able to.

C: And you know, if you were, had gone there, you liked the music education right the first time. F: I was a double major for awhile and then I ultimately settled on. I wanted to, I wanted to compose. C: Okay. But don't you feel that you have that much work on instruments? F: Oh, for sure. Yeah, and I actually started doing that in high school after school. I would stay after in the band room and just saying, oh, can I see what it's like to play trumpet and you know. C: Well that's, that's a whole thing. And again, you're not playing to the master, you know, you're not trying to answer this, but just to have your hands on the instrument to go through some of the

206 basic things really changed your whole attitude about how to wait for that extra take backs. What's missing is that opportunity, you know, and same thing with conducting I think should be important because you know, you could have written the greatest piece and if you put it in front of an ensemble, they have to direct them. You don't know what you're, you're on the podium. It's not at all. Yeah. So would you, would you, would you say that some of the things you listed are more important and equally as important than you know, getting. Because we get a lot of theory, we get a fair amount of history. I mean, would you say there's a hierarchy of, well, you know, it's theory to me is let's look at practices past periods, you know, to see where we've been so we know where we're going. Yeah, I'm going to that standpoint. Same thing with history and that's what I was studying history is to look where we've come so we have a basis of what's unfolding for us in the future, which is important. But, um, no, I, I, I think that the instrumentation, unless you're going to just wait for a solar panel, solar voice or something like that, it just specialized in that which some people can do it. That's fine. You know, it's going to be an involvement. Cementation no, you can read the Piston, you can leave the know what do they want to read. But it's like I tell people is like trying to learn how to cook but not actually cooking. Just really a couple because not to give you an idea of how that, what the outcome is. F: I also think being in the ensemble that you write for is huge. C: Yes, your ears are listening to know what’s week or this is. F: No, no, not even the civic ensemble that you write for. My favorite to write for band. Just being in a band, playing in a band, you know, just seeing them rehearse, listening to how parts interlock and everything. I think that's huge. C: Yeah. Let's see. So you've been through the conducting, you've been through the, the methods classes that makes a big difference and I can't even probably spirit the same thing as that, that has had an I think you'll see later on. Is that a huge impact that, you know, um, you know, one of the ways that I studied orchestration of instrumentation and that is I used to have really before computers, I just have real good at handling these are um, because I just, I had heard of too many composers that great music but had core pedagogy and who, who wants to struggle through it, it's going to be a poor poor performers or poor rehearsals when people are struggling through trying to read chicken scratch, you know. So I just told myself from day one, if I'm to compose, I want to have that hammer. It's will be able to read this off because I don't want the piece to fall on its face because of you know, of what other composers are done. So one of the things sell by half. Nothing like a long story short by having good penmanship. I was getting calls for. Reduces your copy. I was in Grad school. Know not that money, you know, tense a measure, something like ten cents a line or something like that to copy. Here's the score and copy all the parts aren't that shows for Vegas. I don't know how they found out about it. Well, what I did was kind of funny. Joe Did. She had a piece for trombone quartet or trombone choir. They says, can you come up with the parts out? And I didn't know if someone somehow, sometimes I don't have been handled and all of a sudden next to that copy. Now I've got this piece of it have been done in a week and you got the project for me that and you know, we ship them out or that kind of stuff, so that's how I made extra money, but at the same token, what was really incredible that experience was it could be 3:00 at night and I'm half asleep and you're subconsciously analyze,

207 as you call those parts. You're looking at that texture, how it fits with other textures. What are the idiomatic things of what is written. In print example I tell people is I had a copy parts. Now I've never really studied harp, but the first time I opt in I had to wait for harp. That was the one symphony. When I wrote a piece for them it wasn't intimidating. It was just, I know what I'm doing. We've already written up hard parts. I know characters. What has to be done, what's available. The whole thing stopped because I had copied them, you know, so it's kind of unique experience, but it's amazing how you subconsciously kind of process what you're looking at because you're. You're kind of a slow a piece, you're going very slow through. Your departments aren't. You're saying, oh, this is how this texture picture. Oh, I like how this coordinator anyway, so I like how the system, it is dovetail with this system and it's a learning process. So that's another thing that, that opportunity doesn't exist so much anymore. Sometimes you get calls from people that want to blame it on the computer.

F: I did a lot for Goeff Gibbs, but from right into . So, um, so are there anything that you particularly love about conducting your own music? C: And it's controlled, it's controlled from idea, but when you do your own piece, you're, you have controlling. So a lot of times are the rehearsals. The problem is you have x amount of time and you're trying to figure out how much you can accomplish that time. As you said, you're trying to lead to that perfect performance, but you've got to figure it out. You've got to assess the ability of the group and how piece matches. That group isn't the loading, you know, and how they work with that. I'm going to be able to spend time on a lot of the concepts of the piece and have them have a firm idea of what approach are you using. So your original question, things in particular that you love, that stuff. So having that control I love because when I watch every once in a while I'll have someone else that wants to come conduct to premier or something like that, but they don't need to rehearse this and it's like, no, they're sitting there turning the clarinets and just one section which sounded okay and I could have been better, but there's a section later on, it's just formed up yet and it's just, you know, it's maybe because of the, the, the counterpoint I use and it's just kind of odd meters or whatever and just push that aside. That's important. But this section is just like, you know. So that's, that's what I liked is having that control and you know, it's like, it's like the is a lot of times you'll see a film composer wants to conduct a session because they feel bad. Habit control. Some phone, you have two choices, either conductor staff or the sound booth and the idea that is they need to hear what it's going, you know, because they're, they're trying to satisfy the producer, director, whatever is easy to move with them. And so they want to hear what sound you could hear the, basically the same thing out on the . So there was, this was Mike's underway instrument that's out there, so it's not been mixed yet anyway, so I'm not sure what the differences, you know, between standing out on the stage, get back from your thesis statement in the booth, you know, other than the cost of the director or whatever. But um, but a lot of film composers will say that that's why they conduct because they want to have that control of something as opposed to someone else because they'll hire someone else, use your phone or whatever. If they're not going to know, um, and I'm this perfect out that I'm going to give it yourself. You help, you've got back control again, not trying to be a control freak, but you know, when you're trying to make that piece to your piece and you're trying to

208 create it recreating, it's mostly as you can do what you wrote. And uh, so by conducting yourself, you know, possibility. F: Are there things you like about having someone else conducted one of your pieces? C: Yeah. Again, it's kind of like a self evaluation, however you communicate. It also could be that they took something slower than I had worked out well next their fault. Um, maybe maybe they felt that that melody fits done on a slower style. Maybe I need to rethink that, erase that problem because I used to, I guess the tempos and I go to rehearsal or something like that. You're playing it too fast. It's all smarter. 180, 180 and you know, we're right at 18o. F: Has Your interpretation of your own music ever changed from hearing someone else conduct it? C: Occasionally. And it could be a couple of simple things. It's almost just seems like I know you wanted to this temple, but I'm always reminded of Frank Ticheli and get a piece called a Cajun while you did two sets, but first was Cajun Folk Songs. And so in the score, he says, uh, I wrote it with tempo one heard of playgroups temple. So don't hesitate to particular step or do you want to. Yeah, I think it's going to be he, this was how he envisioned the piece. Yeah. But there'd be a faster tempo. F: Are there any particular challenges you find in conducting your own music? C: Oh yeah, I love mixed meter stuff. I like to play with, that's a challenge. That's a challenge because it's automatic pilot, but when you're thinking about a meter that's, that's a challenge because he could really throw a group off because you've got these other human beats and if you've got a 9/8 bar but it's conducted, you know, 10/8 bars conducted on three slash three slash slash two or something like that. And you put two threes, three threes and a seven to three. I don't want to know a or something that you missed the next job because you're off by half or something like that. That could be crucial. So those, there's more thought now. Now I have to get to the mechanics. Then I kind of put the music side, the music side, but I have to put the compost poser side and hyped and the mechanics of how my body can do that correctly. You stumbling a lot. The great thing about America, he could make a mistake and no one knows about it, but you know, you can make a mistake in an automator. Screw up. I've had, I wouldn't call him close calls, but I've had some sweater moments. F: And does being a conductor affect the way that you choose your know metrical groupings and. C: Yeah, not really. F: Um, does it affect anything, you know, balanced technical prowess, range. And then you talked about how, you know, take obviously taking methods classes were composers is essential. C: I mean it affects how I use colors. Again, I'm a big go goal because I love thinking about how you have this multitude of colors and you know, you take a fleet of a trouble with the heartburn. You haven't played double something doublet for strength and doubled the color and you're texting the credit middle instrument. You take the trombone and the bass player. Same thing,

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Greg, the new instrument, and so that's kind of what I think about when I'm reading a peach with that. So she'd say that what your question. I'm just being a conductor. Affect the way you choose. You think about range, technical priorities. Balancing. Yeah. Yeah. I had those individual sentence in your head and I can imagine what room sound like combination. There's these pieces. That's the problem with a lot of orchestra band. You get these, these banding sounds because if you have two sections, it's space. You know, I don't want to say Sam, but living which playing, it's kind of a me walk color. I mean, you know, obviously dead or something like that, but. But it's all the. Break it down into sections of ensemble orchestra, man, that's, that's me. What's interesting is all these colors you use and how you move through the composition.

F: Um, when you are giving someone a composition lesson, does your experience as a conductor or affect the way your critique their piece? C: That's hard to answer. I mean, I spent a lot of time now and my students, I'm just what the is. Is it common performance as a conductor doesn't charge them. This was a composer. I'm just trying to make sure that they deal with things that are, that are playable. And um, where do you think the composer's job and the conductor's job begins saying correctly? F: Well, in both cases, if I was conducting one of your pieces, where does your job end and mine begin? C: I don't know. I think there's enough because I think as a composer I think I feel a little more, um, the way I'm going to look at a piece I'm really trying to get, I don't want to say grasp more of. I'm not sure the thing with, uh, with good conductors and if they're doing their job, they're going to be absorbed so much of that piece, you know, historical perspective, everything about the piece and as a composer, I think that's automatic. That's what you want to know. What makes this piece, why this business, why is it, where does it fit in? The scheme of peace is similar and um, so I'm trying to see if there's really a difference to me because you're still trying to. You an example would be if I'm going to. I'm like I conducted an ensemble, we were doing selection and stylistically they were having a little problem with some of these things now because we've fortunately jumps from style to style. Um, and so I would stop and talk about what that portion stories about. No, I did that because where I stopped my conducting my own pieces. That's what I'm talking about. Why this is, what is the suggested just parked, represent? What does it reflect? What is it supposed to say? I don't know. I'm guessing getting back to that musical, I guess I'm more aware of it now as composer, but you know, you look to great conductors in that score study scores then anyway built your rhythms. They're going to try to get it to more the meat of the case. So I don't know if I can just really. I think there's. Yeah, because if I'm going to conduct your piece, not just studying what you paid, studying what's off putting. And again, I think part of that made me listen to the way the person is. I think a lot of that is our notational system doesn't sound spine. It's a set of instructions for a partial set of instructions and maybe that's what it comes down to. You know, so you get the whole guy that started the whole bag of no articulation. Maybe we have simple articulation of that means short nozzle, wasted short. Now this means war strikes to it, you know, I want sometimes to put more strength to a note. You want to do something to note before and that's all stylists considerations and notational system

210 doesn't cover that. So maybe that's what the conduct is trying to do is find out or make the interpretation. What is Mrs. Does that make sense? Yeah. You know, let's face it, we need to redesign our notation system. It's archaic. I think you've got to want to, did you want to be. But you know? F: I'm talking about the same thing with several people and yeah, it's like, um, the example that I always think of is when you get crescendo, um, you know, you have these even spreading apart. I can't tell you how many times I've heard the conductor say st most of the Crescendo for the end. No, no, no. Wait, wait on the him. So it should be a curved. C: Yeah. So maybe that's what it is because that's what we're trying to do is they'll the missing pieces with the notation wax. Yeah. Yeah. And I think we're aware because as composers we have the system that we have to use and he gave partial instructions, not all the instructions. So habit a basis for the pieces about skin change. How someone. So I don't know if I ever stopped being a composer and conductor. F: Um, now you mentioned like if, if you're conducting your own piece, um, is it possible to remove yourself from it? He's like, who? Do you ever conduct your own piece as if it were someone else's? C: Nope. Nope. And you know, it's interesting as one of the interesting things I came across was reading about, I forget what book it was, but he was talking about and it said it was interesting. Most people didn't pick up on this, but after Bernstein would finish conducting the piece you'd see, take, I forget the time span. It was like 15, 17 or so to turn back into Bernstein, meaning that if, if he was going to conduct, he was, Beethoven told that period of time. That's really interesting. And I think it's almost like you know, that that's what you're trying to do. You're trying to represent that person by being that person in a sense. So if I had to conduct, when you get a piece, I want to figure out, you know, knowing you and something like that is, it's a big thing, like if I didn't know anything like that, it'd be totally different and looking at a picture or somewhere online know, but understanding a little bit about your back on something like that would certainly give me a better perspective on becoming you to conduct your piece, you know. So I think that's an interesting concept of how conductors that wouldn't be what they want to do. So I would certainly would not want to be laundry since you've been productive in my district, you know, course that's the main advantage. You don't want to get back to your piece. That's all I have to do is pick up that know how can I become, you know, so interesting concept. I'd be coming, the composer I came back and becoming closer to represent the piece. F: I'm just want to talk about programming, um, does being a composer or affect the way you program? C: Oh, maybe. I think the difference would be I would want in a program, I liked the variety and I'm trying to find pieces that satisfied different styles and ideas and that I leave be more choosy because I'm looking at more of a compositional standpoint and what's going now. Here's this piece now what can we be a nice piece. It's going to compliment that, but the contrast to that piece, so I think I'm going to find. Try to find more pieces of contrast to each piece to represent a

211 variety of ideas. I'm not sure. Sure. Conductor would say we think that we all the time, although I know a lot of them do do pull them like that, but I think as a proposal, that's what I'm looking for. If I'm going to have less. They were like, what are. What are the pieces will be by you use case. Then what can I represent as a piece? That's where different college, the style that is going to know be a nice compliment and contrast to kind of go down the road and find other pieces that seem to compliment them and not be the same style of the same kind of treatment. So I would think there'd be a slight difference in Hollywood. F: Do you say when you talked about kinda paying attention to the compositional aspects of the piece, do you tend that you go there first versus you know, maybe just thinking like, oh this is a good fit for my group? C: Well, that’s the whole fight and it's such a big matrix of things you're trying to satisfy. That's the challenge of it. Unless you're working with professional group trying to find a piece that will fit the group. Because the worst thing is to find a piece and it's either too hard or too easy, too easy you lose. You know why we know that they needed some challenge, you know, too hard to a stroller. I have enough time with the piece about it because it's not going to be a strong performance. And so that's, that's a challenge whether there was or not so, but, but what, what I'm trying to say is it's a pretty intricate legends, things you're trying to plug it in, you're trying to pick them out in a variety of pieces that are complimentary to did you create this wonderful program. So it might be satisfied that the conductor and the performance, but it's totally isolates the audience. The audience is scratch your head and go to another lays concerts, you know. So that's another thing. So you're trying to, if you think about it in they're trying to figure out this matrix of interesting musical, all satisfied to some extent. F: Yeah. I guess my last question would just be, you know, whether your general thoughts as to, you know, are there any other ways that you feel being both the composer and a conductor enhances both of those skills? C: Um, I think I did more. I study other people's scores and you know, that's composer. It's a, it's a never ending learning process. So to me, I'm interested in whether people love people do because there's no right or wrong. It's just start out with a blank sheet of paper and start creating something, you know, so I mean there's some bad practices, you know, but basically currently have high with long period or writing divisi parts. Totally bizarre. Not at all related back bad crap I should say. This actually isn't bad plan, but not thinking about crafting piece of the craft of itself. Um, so I think I'm more into two and I looked at other works to get more into it because to me it's interesting. Some of those pieces I've been treated and I want to dig a deeper Napa probably never connect those pieces but to um, but uh, so that from that standpoint go the other way around. C: Yeah, I guess progress standpoint, it's what I do conduct someone else's work. It's having more of a connection to the created that piece. So I'll see what their live and told him the story. I go to Westlaw and see all that. Most of these composers that are still alive, that's the biggest band in the world. So this letter and we read through the and being at home to Kelly or whatever, you know, it's, it's just having those conversations. That's, that's you learn about people, you

212 know, um, you know, when someone's not available, um, maybe from a different time period, still interested in to get the perspective of that piece based on that person's period of time that they were lying, you know, so early piece of because band didn't come along, but I'm still allowing this great demand composers that are passed onto that, but still getting to some of that human, I guess the human side or something because as composers we create as humans are human reflections on things. And so I think it's important to know not how this person's really schooled and soon, but what this person, you know, kind of like this person's level person, but having that is important to get to. So as a conducted, and that's what I'm looking for, there's no more than just a piece of product page, a person behind list of the person behind it. F: Thank you very much. That's a wrap. C: Wow. Well, good stuff there.

213

Zachary Friedland Interview with Brianna Gatch July 27th, 2018

Friedland: Um, just before we get started again, when all you know is completely voluntary, you can stop the interview at any time. The first question I usually ask people is do they consider themselves more composer, conductor or conductor, composer. Um, and so you, of course, I assume you fall kind of more on the conducting side, but, um, can you tell us just kind of what your experience has been with both and you know, kind of when you started doing each thing? Gatch: Okay. So, okay. So I began my career and my Undergrad, I did my bachelor's degree in music education. So that was my first real any other than being like from high school, you know, that kind of stuff. Being in that role, I'm composing, I'm actually, I was, I was kind of exposed to them around the same time I would say in the first year of my undergrad. Um, but obviously my concern is with my son, I'm conducting move in the classroom. Um, so, um, but my, my interaction would come to the same as mostly experience. We did it in a computer classes and then some music education classes. Um, for my purposes though, um, competition has not been as relevant. I have found to lead to my career path as arranging. Arranging has come in handy multiple times already, you know, just receiving online the arranging things for school functions and stuff like that. Um, but anyways, um, by a master's degree and when men take age was this actually nothing the web thing, concentration and a few experts teaching classes in there. So that is what I really took, like you get to like turn my attention because you're working with mostly kind of focused on one thing so I could kind of learn more and my competition with classes and stuff like that. But definitely it was a secondary role. So does that answers it? F: Yes. So when you are at a concert, do you find yourself listening more to the compositional aspects of the music or evaluating the performance of the group? G: That’s a good question. I wouldn't know on how I perceive proceed. I would say it's probably 50 slash 50. Um, being an educator and I'm a new teacher so I've been my experience with tasks like couple of years, but um, when I'm listening to a piece I am within to the performance of course, once you have a trained ear, it's kind of hard to turn it off. But um, a lot of times I'm looking for and what my teacher taught us where the eight composition quality q and that's just different things to listen for. And a composition specifically. Um, that would signify that that is equality to do that. I am listening for different compositional techniques when it comes to texture and I'm contrary motion, I can pull up that document and that was something good to go I didn't think to, to listen for, um, from a composition perspective to see if it really is like a media piece of music or is it something that, you know, it's just been. No, it doesn't have as many of the design aspect. Comments I would say. I would say my lifting 50 50. I'm obviously one way or the other depending on what kind of listening I'm doing. F: And does your answer to that change at all when you're listening to one of your own arrangements? Does it become more of a self evaluation or are you listening more for, you know, if the students are having any problems with any of the other parts are?

214

G: Yeah, definitely something that I created the compositional, and I'm going to switch gears into that analytical mindset of, you know, the technicalities of it, um, range that like that because I've been helpful except to it. I guess I am, I'm, I've been gathering, I'm listening to like a full performance of it. I think I do, I told you the performance aspect of it. I'm probably just as much as I ever do, but I guess in a rehearsal setting we're reworking something that's when I'm really have it turned on for listening to this compositional items as well. F: And along those lines, uh, do you reverse your own arrangements a lot differently than you would rehearse other pieces of music? G: No, I wouldn't say it really changed my, um, I think someone is to have. What I do is that I can kind of cater to my, so, um, it kind of works hand in hand versus it taught completely differently and my process, my process, um, regardless of what would it teaching. F: So the kind of like one of the reasons I picked this for my whole project kind of dates back to my undergrad. Um, so for my senior recital, I, for the second half I had three band pieces and I put the group together and I conducted all of them and my professor was playing French Horn in the ensemble. And so after one of the rehearsals I went up to him, I said, you know, do you think it went, do you have any advice? And he said, try to think more like the conductor then the composer. So my question to you is, first of all, you know, what do you think he was getting at when he said that? And secondly, you know, do you believe there's a time to think like the composer and think like the conductor? And if so, how were those thoughts different in your mind? G: That is so interesting. So I totally, I think I've heard that comment before by a professor in college. I had a really close knit composition major that he had pieces for my graduate, so we worked a lot from that was the criticism that you got with you with stuff working with his teeth are giving me feedback was that you know, their keys veins and they work in the same direction, especially if you're doing both. But if there's a time to like put on your pdf thing hat that's under competition hat. I think the only difference between the two. So my experience is just um, what you're listening for. Um, I think it's hard for your brain and I think of one, I was a French one major and I got that criticism all the time when he put one name, my teacher would say, no, you're being too analytical during the performance period of being an educator in the sense of I'm like marking my errors and like analyzing. Yeah. But once you're in the moment you will be pushed forward. I think guys, it's kind of strength composition and conducting. It's kind of the same way. So the competition takes place on your site beforehand, so once you get in front of the group conducting on their performance, you know, you kind of have to leave that behind and really just focus on on the moment because I think it was really easy to just get completely absorbed in the score and you think that you're not taking place in the present. No interaction with the shame and the semesters have such a unique role site that they have the relationship to the musician. It's not just on a page that, that it's kind of playing those notes, you know, who I'm more of what do they need in that moment. So even less competition, okay, in this school, I'm giving my attention to the clarinet considered fine, but maybe you know, maybe that doesn't need your attention. Maybe once you're actually curing the live can you pick and the light that coming out, you need to bring out some counseling and the trombone part or you need to give your

215 attention to some of the real tensions. And I said that's what you're constantly. It's just finding that means of communication with whoever need to involvement and so I can see and I haven't had that experience because like I said, my expertise and background is mostly conducting, so I haven't had any of my work, um, but I can see how that could, how I have seen how that can kind of block your vision of, of what the reality is because even as composer like you don't notice really gonna sound like until it comes to fruition and you kind have to have your ears open and not your head down. Um, so as myself on that. F: Cool. So you talked a little bit about how you really wouldn't rehearse your own arrangements as any differently just being mostly a conductor. Um, would you say that you find it pretty easy to kind of remove yourself from the score and just kind of approach this as like, oh, this is just another piece of music? G: Because I think I've learned early on, like I said about my teacher and um, you know, you have to kind of disconnect, like period as a writer, as a composer, but like you can only be wearing fully at each time, like a window of time that you can tweak things. So maybe you are listening just for compositional something the first time you hear it, but he also, when you're in the role of conductor, it's just completely different. You have to, you know, you really have to cater to the needs of the live musicians in the room. High School, you know, I'm not working with college or professional institutions. I don't think it's any different either give live feedback. It's not. The audience isn't going to have a score in front of them. The analyzing and taking through as you're performing like they're going to be taking place in the live and self. I do think that for me personally, I would, I would switch gears as much. I could after a certain point. F: And do you ever think you could conduct your own arrangement as if it were someone else's piece? G: I don't separate myself so much from it. Nextera creation. You're going to have a different relationship with the p, m, I don't know that I would completely take myself. There's always something in my head that would be telling me I was the one who arranged in and whatnot. I think that'd be nice. F: Um, so from listening to your answers, it seems like, um, you know, these kind of the composing side and the conducting side are fairly separate in your mind. Um, so in your opinion, where does the composer's job end and the conductor's job begin? G: I would say so hard because I guess it isn't always seamless like the passing of the baton as it were between that. Really good question. I think the obvious answer is, I mean, you're speaking to yourself, right? You are composer and a conductor. F: Let's talk about it in both. Let's talk about in both scenarios. So let's say you don't say you conduct one of my pieces. Uh, when does my job end in your job begin and then we'll talk about if it's the same person. G: Okay. I'll just speak for my experience with all I have the in the past. Usually, especially if it's for a specific performance, they'll come in to like the first, second, you know, first or second reading of her work and I love having them there because then they're able to kind of give

216 feedback as to what they're hearing. They can make small, I'm are talking small changes here and there of like strange things are register and then I would say after the second rehearsal, that's when it Kinda turns into um, conductors role of rehearsing the piece, getting the nuts and bolts kind of gowns. Um, but, but I like doing a full read through, even if it's kind of rough, you know, your sight reading just to give the composer and arranger, you know, the, the big picture of what sounds like and just makes sure that, that their creation. Yeah, that's not what they were going for or me as a composer, conductor is completely misinterpreting it. Like I want them to catch it early on in the stages of some overlap. I don't think it touches like immediately if the season we're talking like a new composition. I feel like conductors are constantly, you know, especially searching for, you know, what is the composers, what did they want with this piece and that really early stages of how they kind of presented to the group. Um, but I definitely think they were, came in here and I guess that works the same. If, you know, the early stage design assist, the first time you've heard it performed in a live group, you're going to want to kind of move at a different pace than if it was something that was well known that you don't really have to try and grapple with as much as a new company. F: And so, uh, if it's, if you're conducting one of your own compositions or arrangements, same question kind of at what time do you feel you stop being the composer and completely turned into the conductor? G: I would say no as other things before that, uh, after you reach your conclusion that, you know, these pieces that could go, the composer's job is done in a way like there's nothing composers being present or they're focusing on that will totally aid of course, like if are the composer like those, those techniques that you use to compose it will only aid you throughout the teaching of the piece. I think it, it definitely continued to influence. Um, but like I said, I think after like the second of, and of course it changes depending on the needs that the piece. Is it something that's completely new and you're still working on getting the right sounds and he may need to stay in competition mode a little bit longer and just explain to that, you know, we're still, we're still working out the kinks as it were, but, but I would say certainly the second rehearsal, um, it would turn into more of, are you going to make this thing happen? So getting down to the nitty gritty of what each part is and how it interacts. And I would get into the rehearsal Monday. F: Switching gears for a little bit, uh, do you prepare your own scores any differently than you would prepare other scores? G: Like score study? F: Yeah. The process. Would that change at all if it's your own piece? G: Um, I would say no. I like what city, you know, it does kind of evolve over time, but I use it as, as a visual aid. That time in rehearsing improved. I think this is a very critical question. Could work differently. Buggy, personally, I, you know, I'm at my notes. I like to just glance at this and know what direction I want without having the back end of looking in, even if I know the people very well because I compose it, you know, at least my memory is so amazing. Composers that I have a student at my high school that's the freshman and he composed to work for us and he had the whole score memorize, like down to what measure numbers. Like, like creepy kid. I've never

217 been that person. I always have to have kind of something to me. Um, so I would say I would prepare the same way. I think it would go a lot faster than what I'm looking for and I know what I wanted to pull out, but I would, I would definitely still mark it up F: And talking about programming a little bit. Um, you are currently working with a middle school band, correct? G: High School F: Okay, cool. Um, so does you know having the ability to arrange and having that experience arranging and you know, a little bit of composing, does that ever affect the way that you program? G: I think it really considered proposition to be something that influences me. Little tough timing. I guess it's more, it's not really conducting either. That really influences the music history part of thing of just making sure you take inventory of all the different kinds of eras and styles and your program. I'll the speed up for one thing or another, but I don't really consider you'd like to investing or a composition decision. F: And when you first, you know, when you get that stack of scores in your ego looking through, um, when you first look at the score of the piece or use your first thoughts, you know, compositionally, is this a quality piece of music? Are you kinda like looking at the compositional side or are you, do you immediately start thinking, okay, well, is this a good fit for my group? Could they handle this, you know, range and technical prowess and stuff like that? G: I think it was about the ability level and mechanic compositional techniques. I think you'd have to kind of consider both as you're going through. And I'm one of the things that I look for in a cost efficient. So quality composition, I'm just flipping through scores and trying to figure out what we're going to play is, um, is the, um, what is it called? She was my brain, um, each part, each part display any medical writing for you today. Um, and then also is there something uniquely gratifying in each score for each player for Mfa? Does have a flipping for score. So I think that I would argue that that kind of feeds on both sides of composition, competence, show value, you know, did the composer achieving two tasks. Then also thinking from the term and the terms of my players typically is it eating that like for, you know, a 14 year old roasted a professional musician. So I would say I'm looking at those side by side. F: When you are arranging, how does all that experience you have as a conductor and music educator affect the way you handle range balance, technical prowess, you know, metrical groupings for meters. G: I would say that it definitely influences and I guess to kind of educate myself with my own experience that sounded good to my youth and know there's only one perspective to go off of. But um, but I think it does even that. I think it's so good mean my teachers always encouraged that my composition friends to connect as much as possible. No, get in front of groups as much as possible because things that sound good, new computer business, maybe something that when you go and it's just not what you were looking for. And then I took a bit of practical experience of, you know, waiting, writing a, her on a certain range has certain benefits, you know, quality

218 that I think if you just, but live Canberra of it and then especially if you're writing for a specific age group, I mean my encouragement would be to spend as much time working with that age group as possible and kind of figuring out what level are they at, what's my handle and writing a piece would be appropriate for them but also stretch sex a little bit. So I think there's, there's a lot to that question. F: Yeah, for sure. And if a student of yours were to bring a composition or arrangement, they did ask you to look at it. Um, again, how would all that that you talked about play into the way that you would critique therapies? G: If a student came to me with a composition? F: Yeah. Do you know, what do you, what do you think of this, you know, how would, how would everything that you've been talking about with your experience and everything affects the way that you were to critique that piece? G: Okay. Can I still have my perspective? And my background is appellate look at things. So I think I would share that one either as much as possible. Hold the idea that would change it. It just kinda the ex expectations because this might be the person I actually like that I'm, like I said I worked with a freshman last year. It composed a full orchestra piece and so he came to me, you know, to kind of see how do they view basically with the put. But I went through my checklist with him. We sat down one morning during office hours and, and kind of pick through it and I kind of gave him my feedback of what I would look out for and what has worked for me in the past. And I had a year of experience of, you know, if you're for from this in the high school setting, this will be challenging. Um, stuff like that, those kind of comments, but I really encouraged him to, to listen to a live replay it. So I actually had him come in to two of my classes, my class, my class to kind of hear how they handled the peace and that kind of what influences your decisions going forward as a composer that say, I mean I treat, I think I treated him similar to how I would treat any kind of competition arrangement that came to me. I'm just looking more in the role of the educator of. No, I think here's what I've been taught type of thing. F: So to wrap up here, um, first question, are there things that you particularly like about, you know, being able to both conduct and composer range in particular? Are the things that you really like about conducting your own music? G: Um, I think it could be under the advantage as a conductor to arrange and compose. I'm over here now because it says, okay. I mean that's why it's so good to have, you know, it comes from a range here for marching band show and stuff like that. And you can know what you have to work with, you're talking truly in the educators feel. So, you know, if I was a guest conductor, you know, say for colleges or something like that, um, I think it was different to the benefits you would have. But for my experience, something that I've arranged that compose, I'm just that much more ahead. I guess I'm on score study because like I said, I would mark the square the same, but I would just have that much more intimacy with it. So it gives me that benefit. And also if it's something that I wrote specifically for a group of musicians, I can really cater to their needs from the educational side, what am I listening to teach them? And um, and making sure those elements in my writing and if it's a competition, it's something that like, if I know, you

219 know, my son might be a little bit smaller this year or they're a little bit more. You have a supportive partner and they're in their music. I think that's the benefit is to just have that relationship with additions close up. Um, and being able to cater to that, F: And do you find it ever presents any challenges either, you know, with balancing the two or is ever a challenge that goes along with conducting when you're on arrangements? G: I haven't really run into a specific role on the team that I'm happy that I get so much in my head about it, but I am conducting something that I did at doesn't really affect it has affected me personally. F: And just last question, how do you, are there any other particular ways in which you feel that your composing has informed your conducting and you're conducting, has informed your composing? G: Absolutely. I think they both influence each other just naturally. It's just getting you that much more experience on different sides of the spectrum. Um, but I don't know that it has more than what I've already said. I think I've pretty much covered how I use each to my benefit and my role. F: Well thank you very much. Look forward to, uh, you know, going through all these interviews and I've gotten some really great stuff. So thank you to contributing.

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Zachary Friedland Interview with David Holsinger June 5th, 2018

Friedland: Before we start, just wanted to let you know, as I prefaced in the letter, this is all completely voluntary so if you want to stop the interview at any time, you're free to do so and I just wanna make sure I have your permission to use your name and anything you say in the document of my dissertation?

Holsinger: Sure, not a problem.

F: All right. Awesome. So, the first question is do you consider yourself more composer/conductor or conductor/composer?

H: Composer/conductor, I guess. That's where I started is a composer and I'm the conductor of the wind ensemble here, so I have to play other people's music. I usually list myself on the letterhead as composer conductor.

F: All right. And did you start doing one thing before the other?

H: No, I did both at the same time. I was a music ed major. They've been together all my life.

F: Great. Cool. All right so when you are at a concert in the audience, do you find yourself listening more to the compositional aspects of the music or evaluating the performance of the group?

H: Actually, I evaluate the performance of the conductor more than anything. I just watch him ... I came to this university I thought to teach composition but then I turned out to be teaching conducting all the time and composition was an extra because there were a lot of other composition teachers. So, you know anymore ... I have both students, but I really am the head of the graduate wind music conducting thing. So, basically, I tend to watch the conductor. Both my wife and I are conductors and we tend to go to a concert ... If we go to Nashville Symphony rather than sit out in the audience we kind of sit on the side so we can get a side view and watch the conductors because basically I just wanna see how they treat certain things ... The music is not secondary but the music's always there so I wanna see what do they do to make the music become more alive, especially wind conductors. When I'm going out and doing an honor band I will usually spend the time before my concert watching the other conductors who are doing the concerts previously or prior to mine because I always tell my conducting students that sometimes I watch the guy out there conducting the sixth grade honor band and realize he does something that makes a lot of sense that I might use conducting the university band. I'm always on the look out for things that as a conductor. I've forgotten what your original question was. Okay, do I listen to the composition or do I watch the conductor? The performance. Hmm. Excuse me. I'm really obvious as a conductor. Sure I must listen to everything, good heavens. You go to a

221 concert to take in everything. I'm sure it's not one or the other. I probably are equal. I guess it all depends on whether I like the composition or not. How much attention I pay to the composition.

F: Okay. Does your answer to that question change at all if I were to say when you listen to a performance of your own music? Are you doing more of a self evaluation or are you listening, oh this conductor did this, clarinets did this with that passage?

H: That's a tough question. Claude T. Smith, somebody used to ask him, Claude what do you say to a band that doesn't do your music very well and he said, 'I always say thank you for playing my music,' and I tend to kind of be that way. I've heard some terrible renditions of my own music but I'm never gonna tell them that their rendition is terrible. I just thank them for their effort, thank them for playing my music. When I listen to my own music, of course when you're listening to your own ... I guess I'm more inclined about the performance than I am about the composition itself because I figure if the composition is out there I've done everything I can do to that composition. I can't change it now. Somebody asked one time, they were talking about the fact that all those old pieces like the Peter Menin Canzona and some of those pieces that were in 1950's and 60's that had very little percussion. I can't remember who it was but somebody was putting forth the idea about we should take all those and add more percussion. Like all amounts and stuff cause they weren't available at the time. But the problem is, the composer wrote those pieces with the percussion he had available. You start fooling around with them, you're kinda changing history there. You need to appreciate them for what they are. Here's a couple pieces I have that I wish I'd done something different on, but it's too late now. So, I'll take them the way they are. I just appreciate the fact that they're getting played.

F: Would that change at all between a piece that ... One of your more famous pieces like take Abram's Pursuit for example. You've probably heard that many, many times. Versus hearing something that you're at the World Premier. Does that change at all or is it just kinda the same? A finished piece is a finished piece is a finished piece.

H: Yeah a finished piece is a finished piece.

F: Yeah, cool.

H: Every once in a while the pieces that I write will surprise me. Like when you mentioned Abram's Pursuit, when I wrote that I thought, well that'll be kinda neat piece. Then I started conducting it and I had so much fun conducting it, I went, this is really a neat piece. I kinda like it more because of conducting it more than just playing it. Every once in a while you run into something like that that you think a piece is gonna be ... Oh this is gonna be a great piece and it flops. Then you have a piece, well I'm not sure this is how it would go and it turns into a great piece. It turns out better than you even imagined it to be so. Somebody asked me one time if I'm ever disappointed. A piece is not what it's supposed to be, but I don't think I've ever been disappointed. They usually turn out exactly the way I thought they would turn out. If anything it turned out a little bit better sometimes, which is pleasing. Sometimes they turned out really bad.

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Oh I was at ... Donald Grantham, he'd just won his second Oswald and then he had a commission from the ABA to write a third piece. Before he sent it, he said given a speech about, 'Well you know, not every piece is a home run.' But problem was the piece we'd commissioned was not the home run. It was kinda funny that okay that one was as good as the other two pieces. So I tend to not say anything. I don't want to say ahead of time, 'Hey, this is a great piece!' Then it turns out to be a dud.

F: Alright. The next group of questions is about score study in particular. Do you find there's a difference when you're preparing your own score or when you're preparing someone else's score?

H: Well there's a difference in somebody else's score because I know my score, basically. I know what's gonna happen. So scores take course and the scores you don't know and you have to learn them. So I mean I think that's kinda a given. I know that now ... I don't know when the first time the piece is played I have to ... It's a premier, you're still ... You have to [inaudible 00:09:00] where you're going, but after a while, I mean I can conduct Abram's Pursuit in my dreams right now. When you do some pieces so many times in honor bands. But new pieces, yeah you do study them but I spend more of my time studying other people's scores, cause I don't want to screw them up.

F: In your own pieces you know what's gonna happen. So, do you find any similarities to score study in the composition process? I mean in a sense, could you almost consider the composition process the score study of your own piece?

H: Well I'm very aware of what the score looks like and what the parts look like to the performer. I'm very aware that there are problems with certain instruments. Like I'm very aware of the problems I would have as a conductor, conducting this new piece, as a composer. So that all kinda just runs together. I'm not sure how to answer that because a lot of the times in my case, it's always been intuitive. I'm just always aware of those things that are gonna be a problem for the conductor. So I try and eliminate them before they ever get out there. Sometimes it's just a scoring thing. When I teach composition, a lot of times I teach ... Course I use a computer ... I don't know if you know, I had a stroke two years ago. So I've lost the use of my left side. So, I mean, when I use the computer, the keyboard here on the right it's no longer what it use to be. But, the deal is I still write the same way and I use to tell my composition students, when we write, the computers a wonderful thing to get you this nice score to write to. But I don't let my kids write to a full score. I make them write music first to just a piano type score because they need to have the music right before they start scoring it. I use to have a compositions teacher who told me when you start to score a piece, you actually recompose it. Because then you add the colors and stuff. It's a whole new dimension. So, the deal is, if the music is right ... Now sometimes when I score them, because the music is…I write all the music out first and such. Sometimes when I'm scoring, I might score a line in a different register than I had it written. Because it turns out it works out better for the instruments if I do that. Cause my thought it, well if it's the right music, it's gonna work no matter where it is on the score. So I can play around with that and add different colors to it because I do things like that. I'm pretty much aware of

223 conducting and composing as one gigantic thought. One does not separate itself from the other to me.

F: Yeah. So, does being a conductor affect the way you choose metrical groupings, meter changes, balance, technical prowess?

H: I've always done measured things. The first time I wrote a piece I realized I was trying ... I was at the piano trying to write this thing and realized, hey this doesn't fit in four, four, what the heck am I supposed to do? So I just started writing and I always have. I let the conductor worry about that cause they ... Every once in a while they go, you wrote 12 measures in four, four, I couldn't believe that. I got the same time. That's just me, I just write with all the metric changes.

F: Cause you've written some very technically demanding and challenging music and I mean that in a good way. So I was wondering, just if being a conductor and how it affected the way you.

H: Well every once in a while I do play them and go, 'What the heck was I thinking?' I mean I have to fight my way through a few of those parts.

F: I love your mallet parts. I'm a percussion ... You're a percussionist right?

H: No.

F: Oh okay. For some reason I thought you were a percussionist.

H: Everybody thinks I am. Either that or they think I'm a horn player. But I'm not one of those. Actually I was a baritone player in college. But I've always played piano. I've been playing piano since I was four years old. The one thing I miss about this stroke is I have no left hand, I can't play piano anymore. So it's kind of a bite. But that was really my first ... I think because piano was my first instrument that's why composition became very easy and intuitive to get into because I was use to seeing all those notes. I always felt bad for my trumpet player friends in college theory cause they spent their whole life looking at one line. They don't even think about more than one line. Really when I was in school as a percussionist, man you're just looking at the snare drum line, all they knew. They had mallets and stuff. I'm from the dark ages my gosh, I'm 72 years old, so you can imagine when I was a kid, there just wasn't xylophones and marimbas and such in every high school band. So it was usually a percussionist played bass, drum, cymbals and maybe glockenspiel, that's about it.

F: Yeah I can relate to that. I started on piano as well and it definitely helped me.

H: Yeah it helps a lot.

F: I just want to go back to the idea of score preparation for a minute and when you said the fact with your own music you know what's coming. To some degree you have to prepare someone else's score a little more. Has your answer to that question changed over time? The first time you

224 conducted one of your own pieces, was it a little different than it is now? Cause like you said, now you can conduct Abram's pursuit in your dreams.

H: I don't know. I'm gonna talk as if I have both arms. Right now, I only conduct with one hand. My wife sits on a stool in front of my conductor's desk and turns my pages because I have no use of that. So I always joke, now I conduct with my right hand and eyebrows, it's all I have.

But before that, I think my conducting changed mainly because as a conducting teacher I discovered some things and simplified my conducting. How can I answer your question? It did change as I got older because I realized I didn't really have to be as flamboyant as I was as a young turk. I don't know about you but boy I'd get there conducting and I was just all over the place. Like wow, it's me, I'm Wagner. I discovered that just going buh, buh, buh is good enough ... I don't have to keep swinging my arms really big to get something done. So even when I had two arms, I mean the weirdest thing I miss right now is I can't chew with my left hand. I can get my arm out there, really slowly. But I'd be three pieces behind before I got to the point of trumpets. It just doesn't work anymore. That's a joke. But the thing is, my conducting did change before the stroke. I got much simpler, I found the labonds system and made a whole lot of difference and labond moves. I found out I didn't have to be as flamboyant like I said, as a conductor. I do have to be ... Now as score preparation on the score itself, I have to do things differently now because I have to give messages to my wife in front of me about what's going to happen at certain times. She has to watch the music upside down, backwards. Thank goodness she's also a conductor so it helps her to do that. My score preparation is a little more, what would be a good word? I just have to do more things. When it comes to score preparation, my wife is one of those, she took from Gene Corporon, down at the University of North Texas. He's a firm believer in all these different colors throughout the ... I don't know what your conducting like, but every line is a different color. His scores look like rainbows. My scores have very little on them, but I've had to do some things to make sure that she she's where the line is upside down. So we've had to do some things like that, that are more for her upside down, than for me right side up. So it's hard for me to describe what happens as a conductor now cause I just can't do things I use to do. I don't know quite how to answer that.

F: So moving on from score preparation, more to rehearsal. Do you rehearse your own music any differently than you rehearse someone else's music?

H: No I think you do it in sections. I don't rehearse any differently than anybody else's pieces. In fact, I'm probably more careful with other people's pieces than my own. Composers have to be really careful as a conductor, not to hear things in his head that aren't being played. So I've had to really learn to listen even to my own music, to make sure that I'm not ... Cause a lot of times you hear stuff in your head and it's really not getting played in front of you. But you hear it in your head so you have to learn to do that with your own music. I don't really have the same problem with other people's music cause I'm watching for things there. A lot of times I'm learning to hear it the same time.

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F: I kinda want to skip ahead in my order of questions cause I think it's really interesting what you said about kinda hearing things that aren't necessarily there cause you spend so much time with the piece. Are there any other particular challenges you think go along with conducting your own music?

H: Hmm. Well I would suggest the only challenge is that sometimes what you decide to bring out as a composer, you'll be really surprised sometimes that other conductors will bring out other things. Like I have a piece called ... And this is one that always sticks in my mind, American Faces, which I did a number of years ago. And Gene Corporon happened to be the guy who conducted it premier. He sent me back the tape of the concert and he had brought out totally different lines than I thought when I wrote it would happen. I mean he kinda turned the piece inside out and I went well that was ... It was really interesting cause I just didn't imagine the lines he brought out were important. And he really kinda gave the piece a whole different color. I've had several conductors do that. Frank Beneschuto, he's passed away now, but he use to be in Wisconsin. He did my piece In the Spring, at the time when Gene's gone off to war about five different times over his career, cause every time he'd go on tour he always liked to take it ... This is one of his favorite pieces. He always took it out on tour when he'd go oversees. But every time he'd do it, he did something different with it. He'd send me a recording and now I do the piece more like Frank did it than when I thought originally when I wrote it. He found so many different things in it than I even thought were there. Which, causeI knew it were there, I would have written it, I guess I should have known it were there. But I didn't realize how another conductor would find certain lines more prominent than the lines I thought were suppose to be. Really, again, he was one of those that turned the piece inside out and I'd do it like Frank does it now. I don't do it like what I thought.

F: Your answers are one step ahead of me cause one of the questions is, has another conductors interpretation of your piece ever changed the way you thought about your own piece? There you go.

H: Yes.

F: Has the opposite ever happened? As anyone ever said to you, 'Oh you know, I've heard you conduct this this way and I...'

H: Yes. I've had guys come to me and say, 'Oh I thought I knew that piece until you did it.' I just brought out different lines than they thought. Again, that conductor brought out lines he thought were the prominent lines that made sense to him. Then when I did it, he heard me do it with a group, oh, I hadn't even thought about that. So I think it happens both ways.

F: Definitely. So are there things that you particularly like about conducting your own music?

H: Well, I don't have to learn it. Let's see. Of course, don't you like to conduct your own music?

F: Of course.

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H: It's a good feeling, it's a good feeling inside. It's something you've done, it's like you're giving birth to something. It's like this is your baby there. Excitement you felt writing to when you get to conduct it, it's just kinda part of it. Actually I almost feel bad for composers who don't conduct. I think they get a thrill but they don't get half the thrill they can get to conduct it.

F: No I agree, it's not. I feel like I don't compose for myself. You compose to share and you compose to ... So this next question goes to the heart of this project. When I gave my senior composition recital at URI, this was 2012, so this was six years ago now. I had three band pieces and for the second half I had these three band pieces that I conducted with a group that I put together. One of my professors was playing french horn in the group, he was one of the band directors at URI. He was playing french horn in the group. After one of the rehearsals I went up to him, I said, 'Brian, do you have any advice on how the rehearsal went?' He said, 'I think at this stage you need to try to think more like the conductor than the composer.' So my question to you is, do you feel there's a time to think like the composer and a time to think like the conductor? If so, how are those thoughts different in your mind?

H: I thought if I can separate them ... Earlier I said something about when I'm composing I'm still thinking about what's being conducted. So I don't know if I can separate those to tell you the truth. Other people will probably give you a better answer. I'm not sure I can give you a good answer to that because there's just, it's kinda like it's all in the same basket to me. I mean I really don't know how to answer that question.

F: I've gotten a variety of different answers for that so far. Do you ever feel like you could conduct your own piece as if it were someone else's?

H: Hell what kind of stupid question is that? How do I think of somebody else's piece? Kinda hard to separate your music from yourself.

F: No, no, that's a valid answer.

H: That's an interesting question. I don't know. I guess the you actually do that is maybe the first time you're going through it because you're listening to make sure everything works. So you're probably thinking about it more as a conductor but maybe not, maybe you're thinking more as a composer cause you're trying to ... Well that's a good question. I would say the first time you go through a piece, you're thinking more as a composer, making sure things work. But the same time as a conductor making sure well do those sounds work? Is that a right way to score that? Is that a problem? So I don't know. Like I said earlier, I have a hard time separating the two. Cause all kinda the same basket to me.

F: Alright. So I'm kinda going out of order cause your answers led me to want to stay on one.

H: I'm sorry.

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F: No this is good. So let's go to a different area. When you're giving a composition lesson, how do you find your experience as a conductor affects the way you critique someone's piece? Or does it?

H: Well yes it does. Basically when the composition student tries to write to a score and immediately gets totally out of range ... That's why I always say, 'Don't do that, write me music first, then we'll score it.' So, I'm usually more aware of the instruments than the young composers are. You're a percussionist so you had to learn well what does a flute do, what does a piccolo, what you had to learn something about each of those instruments. When I use to teach orchestration, I would a lot of times say, well you need a little range and stuff instrument but it's almost more important that you know the instrument can't do. You gotta know it's limitations because if you're a good composer and a good orchestrator, a lot of times I take things to the extreme sometimes, but I always know the limitation of the instrument is. Or the limitation of the player. Should I have to write a certain grade level. That's always a problem. As you become a published composer, you will also find that ... Somebody says, I need this up in grade 3, well you've got to know what a grade 3 band as most might be able to play, what the limitations are of the players. Or the limitations of the instruments. I'm very aware of that which then leads me to tell the guys, 'Do not write to the score until you've got the music written, then we'll score it.' I was really impressed with that teacher I had, I mean gosh, I was 23 years old maybe when the guy said, 'When you score a piece you recompose it.' That really set off bells and whistles to me. Light bulbs came on and I went you know you're right cause instrumentation, writing music and doing the scoring, that's two different labors. Wow you could do some neat things. Just colors and stuff. Always talking orchestration, talking about, well everything's terrible with the strings, then you started to add all these wind instruments for color and now we have the concert of symphonic band which is just a whole bunch of color. What do you do with that? All the colors you have out there to work with. I do see that when I'm talking to young people. Now, composition wise, hmm, I'm very much into ... If you ever start teaching composition, invariably some kid will walk into your studio and go, 'I want to write a symphony.' And you go, 'Why?' Because you can't put a four bar phrase on a paper and you want to write something that's 55 minutes long. A lot of times I discovered of my young composition students who come just to college for the first time, they think too big. So I have to get them to pair down and start thinking about the craft of composition. Don't worry about their phrases or all these motives, all that stuff. Later on, I'm pretty tight with them the first semester. I stay pretty tight with what they can do. I give them a lot of rules that makes them do things they hadn't really thought about. Then I can turn them loose and discover that all the things that we had to make the rules about, they kinda explode and you start bending. I remember one time talking about ... Oh wow I was a kid, they were talking about music theory in college. Say, 'Well you know for the first three semesters you make the rules,' and then the last one was you break them. No you don't, you start to bend them. A composer starts bending the rules. Theory goes, you do need that foundation but then you start bending. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Well the composer or the theorist? The composer came first and the theorist tried to figure out what did he do and then that kinda set up the rules as music kept building along and building itself up. I tell other people, I said, 'You're making up your own theory, but the problem is you've got to have some kind of foundation to

228 base that theory on.' I said, 'Schoenberg didn't come with a 12 tone theory, he had to have 12 tones to start with.' They just weren't ram toned they were in a different order. But he had the tone to start with. So what can you do with the 12 tones, you yourself? How are you gonna treat them? Are you gonna treat 'em major, minor, you gonna treat 'em otherwise? Cause it ain't so ... I'm really pretty tight at least the first semester on most composition students. I make them sit down and really start thinking instead of just throwing stuff on the page.

F: Yeah I can definitely relate to that. I got into composing music because of band music. So I love playing band music, I loved playing my high school band. But over the last 10 years I've found that the biggest strides I've made compositionally, as far as craft and mastering counter point and balance has been in chamber music. I think that's where the chops are.

H: Yeah cause they all have to fend for themselves. All my life I've kinda wished I could do more small group but everybody always asks me to write for big bands and that's kinda what I love the most, so that's what I do. So when I'm helping my composition students with their chamber works, I really have a good time watching them and making suggestions. Like you don't have to take them. I will stop and say well, this major right here ... Oh and a lot of times young composers ... They'll write one major music and it's just absolute genius and they forget about it. Wait a minute, what did you do back here? What were you thinking when you did this little section? This is absolute genius but you didn't do it again. Why not? So they have to go back and realize okay, were they thinking different that time? They probably were and they were putting it together. They were actually making their own theory and it really worked. So, finding their identity.

F: Because you mentioned you teach both composition and conducting, when you're teaching conducting does being a composer every affect the way you teach your students to study scores or to plan rehearsals?

H: Yeah my answer is probably but I'm not sure I can really tell you why. I'm just always aware of things and sometimes they will not realize what's really happening in composition. I'll say, okay you know ... We do go back and I tell a little theory. But I'm not really sure I can answer that question cause it kinda all runs together. So I don't know if I have an answer for that. I'm sure I do because I'm more aware of it. I use to teach at a small school, private school in Texas before I came to university. Every once in a while we would stop a piece and I'd ask the kids, what's wrong with this piece? Because I knew it wasn't written very well. We've read the thing. They use to tell me about why they stop and they'd go, 'Okay another compositional nugget is coming.' They'd joke at me about those compositional nuggets. But I want them to know that certain things happen, this piece went really well then all of a sudden it was just not as good. Well why wasn't it as good. I kinda made them think about it. So I kinda do that with my conducting students too. I mean going through the school, what do we look for, we look for problems. All different kinds of problems. Cause it's always better to have a plan and not need it, than to need a plan and not have one. That's one of my gibs rule, NCIS guy with all the rules. What are gibs rules? Well Holsinger's rules are, the first one is always have a plan whether you

229 need it or not, cause it's terrible to get to a point and need a plan and not have one. So basically look at all kinds of different things like that. So I guess I do think about composition maybe more so than they do. They think about all the colors and instruments and stuff like that. I want to make sure ... And we always talk about phrasing and cause ... We always talk about the attributes of expression and how they ... The attributes of expression came from an old book in 1926 where he was trying to teach wind players how to play orchestral transcriptions. He was talking about different things you do to help you play musically. So there were kinda some rules that were really just attributes. But they're as good today as they were in 1926. So I mean I taught these kids and they watch these things. I kinda try and get us all on the same page compositional and conducting wise. Like I say, it just kinda all runs together.

F: That's kind of ... In talking to you it really seems like there's an innate awareness between the composer side and the conductor side.

H: Yeah I think if you just talk to a conductor he doesn't give you a whole lot of different answers than a composer/conductor gonna give you. Because they just look at things differently and I'm not sure how but they do.

F: So kinda the final thing I wanted to talk about was programming. When you program, if you have a stack of scores and you're looking through these scores for the first time, are you evaluating the compositional aspects of the piece more or do you more just kind of think about is this a good fit, what challenges does this pose for my group? Yes. All of those. So I'm thinking about programs. I'm thinking about ... Right now when I go to school, I'm trying to figure out next year's programs are gonna be and ordering music and taking pieces I played 10 years ago that I need to play again. Kind of putting them on different concerts and seeing how they all fit together. I think about the compositions more in the fact of the style of the composition. What do I need at a certain point because if I'm gonna make the concert interesting not only to my players, but to my audience. I'm a firm believer also ... I don't believe I have to play an entire concert in grade 6 music to be ... I would shoot myself. On my university band, I mean we'd play everything. There might be a grade 6 and there might be a weird piece. There might be a pretty piece. There's gonna be all kinds of pieces because I have an audience that I would like to get back to the next concert to tell you the truth. That's an important item as a composer, I'm very aware of the listener. Guys who write just weird music for the sake of writing weird music. They have no listeners except for weird music lovers. The deal is they ... I'm not afraid of melodies and and having a good time and exciting music. At the same time, each concert I will have something that's' very olive garden. But then I may have a grade 3 pretty that I play in the middle of something just ice cream and sherbet. Yeah, pallet cleanser. So I don't know, I look at a lot of things. I know what I like to hear and I know that you start out with a piece, it grabs the audience. You usually play your heavy piece up near the foot of the concert. The heavy, I'm talking not the big piece, but the heavy piece. So while the audience still fresh has fresh ears. You're heading out towards the end for the big piece at the end kind of thing. You always have a couple marches. I'm sorry, I conduct a band, bands are suppose to play marches. We are not suppose to play selections by Lady Gaga. I don't believe in has any

230 business in a concert, concert kind of thing. Like I said, I'm 72, there's things I like and there's things I don't like. So it makes my list for me. I'm an old fart, what can I say?

F: I guess the last thing I wanted to ask you is if you had any other thoughts you wanted to sum up as far as ... Oh actually you know what, one more thing. Where do you feel the composer's job ends and the conductor's job begins?

H: If they're the same person or if they're different people? Oh I gotcha on that one didn't I? You're talking about composer conductors right?

F: Let's address is differently.

H: Okay.

F: If they are different people, where does the composer's job end and the conductor's job begin? If they are different people.

H: Okay. Because that's a good question. Hmm. See I'm thinking about some people because I know conductors who can't write anything. They're only conductors, they look at music totally different than I look at music. And I know composers who don't conduct like John Mackey, he doesn't conduct. So, he sat there and tells I want it this way or I want it that way. And the conductor listens or in some cases doesn't listen. What a composer wants to have. Cause they are two different individuals. Like I say, they do their own thing. That's why every once in a while I get a recording back that's totally different than what I thought it should sound like. But my music doesn't bother me. I went okay that's what the guy heard in that and saw in that. Boy that's kinda a tough question. I always tell the story about a young lady who came up to me in a all state band, she's a clarinet player. She playing one of my pieces, and said, well how do you finger this passage? And I went, that's not my job. My job was to write it, your job was to figure out how to play it. That's kinda the way I feel about it. At a certain point, it's kinda out of my hands. I usually tell people you know, when you write a piece of music, it's your child, you send it out. But you put it in somebody else's hands and whatever you get back, you've got to be happy with that because you did your job as a composer and the conductor has a job to do as a conductor. Hopefully you both get on the same wavelength. Hopefully the composer has written music that is precise enough that there's freedom but not that much freedom that it won't come back totally different than what you thought it as going to do. Boy I tell you, I'm not really sure how to answer that question. When's a composer's job end? I guess when you put the double bar at the end, your job's done. You gotta turn it over to somebody else. You gotta trust somebody else will find out what the music was all about. Cause if I'm not there I just have to put it in someone else's hands and hope it works out. I guess that's the answer. When I'm done writing then my job is done. If I'm the conductor, my jobs not done. But if I'm not the conductor, my job is done.

F: So in the case of wanting your own pieces do you feel is there a moment where your job as composer ends and your job as conductor begins or are you still the composer through the entire?

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H: Well no, I think that they jump right in. Cause one time you asked me, well do I conduct my pieces in rehearsal different than anybody else's? Well no, I would approach them the same way. We'd just build them up in chunks and I would approach the same way. I might be listening to something different because it's my own music, to make sure it actually works well, if I have problems with it. No, I think I would not rehearse my music and somebody else's music any differently. In rehearsal, rehearsal aspects would not change. So it would be tough to separate them because I'm the same person. But like I say, you ask a conductor who knows how to write and a composer who doesn't conductor, you're gonna get two different answers.

F: So last question. Do you have any other thoughts just on being a composer and a conductor helps enhance both of those skills?

H: Well I don't think so, I think I kinda covered everything. Like I say, it's all in the same basket to me. To other guys it might be in two different baskets. But I'm very aware of one while I do the other. I'm very aware of the other while I do the one. So it's just part of what I do intuitively. It just works out that way. For two years after the stroke, I haven't composed, I'm just now starting to compose again after a two hear hiatus because the organizational skills ... My stroke was caused by a brainstem explosion back there. Though I could get on the podium and tell my kids what to do, or I could help conductors on my podium while I was recuperating. That never changed. But when it came to writing music, I couldn't organize. I had several pieces ready to be written. I had collected all materials for these two pieces, but after I had the stroke, I felt I couldn't' organize them, I couldn't get them in order. I had to call and tell the people, I said, I can't do your commission. I can't think. I can't organize yet. So really it's taken almost two years before that part of my brain rewired enough. Having a stroke is really weird. I tell ya, you're kinda use to losing body parts cause I mean I was totally paralyzed on my left side. I've gotten everything back, I don't have my left hand, fingers back yet. The arm moves but I can't control it that much. But, I was amazed at brain stuff that I had to get back. I tell ya, when you have a stroke, therapists tell ya, your brain just has to start rewiring. The same nerves go to your legs to make your legs move. But your brain has to rewire to get to those and maybe send messages to different nerves to make everything work again. Well same thing happens I realize musically. It didn't stop me thinking musically, I could answer any question musically, but I couldn't write music until about six months ago. All of a sudden ideas started again and I knew how to put them down. So it's been a real reeducation for me to start writing again. So that's why still, I never could separate those two facts and I don't think I could separate them now. Composer and a conductor, I am one in the same. They inhabit the same brain, such a brain as it is. They're in the same place. It's just kinda what happens. Like I say, you ask other people, you'll get different answers.

F: Well that's all the questions I have, thank you very much for the time.

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Zachary Friedland Interview with Michael Konnerth July 5th, 2018 Friedland: Um, so before we begin, as you know, this is completely voluntary. You can stop the interview at any time and just want to make sure that it's okay to use your name and job title in the document if I choose to quote you directly. Konnerth: Sure. F: Okay, cool. Um, so first question is, do you consider yourself more composer/conductor or conductor/composer? K: Conductor/Composer. F: And um, how long have you been doing each? K: Well, I’ve been conducting when I was 18, I think in High School was the first chance I got, so how old am I now, 34, 16 years. F: And when did you, when did the composing come in? Was that kind of always on the side or K: So I did some arranging in high school, then I had one piece that was performed my senior year. That was an arrangement of a video game theme and then uh, and then it really took off freshman and Sophomore Year of college and then get some classes junior year of college with a orchestration, then the composer a composition class. Then at URI the other advanced classes. Yup. F: Cool. So when you are at a concert on, do you find yourself listening more to the compositional aspects of the music or evaluating the performance of the group? K: I tend to find myself, evaluating the, the compositional technique that I think that the whole aspect of the quality of the performance helps or hinders and the analyzation of it, if that makes sense. F: Yes. K: I was like, oh, okay. You know, like they're playing a don't know, you know, like a or something like, okay, you know, you can hear the delay and back and forth between the instrument and video as long as they're doing it, as long as the performers are doing the job, you're, you can analyze the music and you're going to want to view. But you know, when the technical abilities to do that. But that's you. Stuff like that, like high school but even called drive and get out. Then I think if, you know, when you're not thinking about the give a, you know, the beauty of music for the proposition taking me are forced to think about the performance, you know, I think that is the red flag that says okay, you know, maybe the piece falls or you know, something not whitened and how the planning it. Does that make sense? F: Definitely. Um, and does your answer to that last question change at all when you're listening to a performance of your own music?

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K: Uh, no, no, not really. I mean with my own arrangement for my own composition then difference is I tend to focus a lot more on the player aspect because I already know my music not perfectly, but, you know, I just, I created it. I know her well enough that, you know, my perspective, they tend to focus more on technique as opposed to compositional technique. F: Hmm. K: Oh yes. I guess the answer would be I say more on the performance aspect as the compositional aspect. F: Um, and so most of this kind of talk about, you know, how we conduct our own music. So when, when you conduct your own compositions or arrangements, do you find that you prepare your own scores differently than you prepare other scores? K: Well, I think, I think we'll frame out for that. What about, well, you know, analyzation of what the parts are, where the issue is, is all day quite over silver ticket saying, okay, well what am I assessing supposed to do for the world? Or, you know, whoever, whatever composer you play. So if it's the same process, I just don't think it takes twice as much that we took from that perspective. But there was there someone else. F: Yeah. Okay. So in the sense that, you know, you've already done all the research about who you are and what your intentions were and stuff. K: Exactly. F: Along those lines, do you rehearse your own music any differently than other people's music? K: Yeah, I'd probably feel actually. So, uh, I mean not personally, but what ends up happening is, you know, when you're, when you're out here, you're breaking down a lot of the technical aspect of that process. But one thing is at, if they could say here's exactly what the client I suppose to be. So we're building this all kind of jump around and put the picture together. The overall picture together quicker or the way I already my mind back in from beginning to end. Then when I conduct someone else’s piece even with all the research and having that more than the whole thing is every time you pick it out, if it's something new and be like, oh, or even better after that I did, uh, what was the Second Suite in F with one band of like, Oh yeah, I, and I go here, come up me like, oh, that's what the case. We may try that next time I do it right. You know, but as I give you repeat these to other composers. Yeah. I find myself changing my interpretation. So I interpret it in a different way. Well, you know, during your own arrangements, through your own music, like, okay, I know what I want to go that way. Yeah. F: So along those lines, when I did my senior recital and I had the concert band, which I believe you played in that, after one of the rehearsals, uh, Brian was playing Horn in the ensemble and so after one of the rehearsals I went up to him and just asked him if you hadn't, if you had any advice, and he told me, uh, to try to think more like the conductor than the composer. Um, and so my question to you is, first, you know, what do you think he meant? And then second, do you believe there's a time to think like the composer versus thinking like the conductor, and if so, how are those thoughts different in your mind?

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K: That’s a good question. More like the conductor and less like the composer, right? F: Yeah, that's what he said after one of the rehearsals. K: Well, there's a couple of things that he could of meant. One of them is when you're thinking of, you know as the composer. that the, that we did last year, the was the, uh, all the, yeah, the love fast company, you know, and so there's a lot of really cool on the underlying layers in that middle line change with style and the changes going on, which is really cool. Or the last moment, the march on their role, the role in chaos. So, um, so from the conductor you're focused, you're focused on the near your part and you're kind of maybe possibly over queuing or giving so many gestures instead of allowing the piece to just happen. Instead of kind of rather than being, you know, just kind of a guide the piece where it needs to go instead of pushing it. Does that make sense? So, um, you know, my, I remember my teachers told me, they told me because I was very animated but I should take a step back. You do overemphasize a composer, you know, we're thinking about every little detail because it's all about how they fit together while the conductor probably, you know, what the picture of the puzzle. F: Um, let's talk about score study because we were kind of, you kind of mentioned, you know, kind of looking at scores a lot. Um, so when you first look at a score, do you find that you go straight to the challenges and you know, things that it will do for your group and if it's a good piece for the group or do you kind of first look at the composition itself and kind of evaluate it just as a piece of music? K: So I would rather answer this question two ways, first in terms of teaching chorus, and then in terms of band. F: Sure. K: Oh, so, uh, for me, because the principles of conducting don’t differ between band and chorus, but in my opinion, conducting is conducting. They’re using their mouths as their instruments. So, so when I'm teaching chorus, because chorus tends to pick up what they hear, not what they could finger, oh, so, the first thing I look at, you know, what’s the melodic content and what’s the like, you know, like whether there is harmonic content. So it's like, okay, I think is this something that they could pick up easily or am I going to have to spend a lot of time on the fundamentals, for example, if the melody has a lot of [indecipherable] jumps, for a chorus that’s exceedingly difficult, if the melody kind of flows, in a feel-like motion, only jumps like thirds or fourths or something like that, then it gets picked up a lot faster. So if the chorus gets the melody down quickly, they can, you know, remember it quickly even stuff that has been harmony, it makes the whole piece easier to teach and the whole thing easier to rehearse because it does not take off to get to big concepts. So the thing that’s true I think at least with middle school band is, is how quickly can they understand the concept of uh, for example, uh, I remember, this was a few years ago at my other school where I had middle school band, for the [indecipherable], I remember we did the one theater, a grade three, which is a huge for middle school, at least this school band, as only a handful of kids but because a lot of content was extremely repetitive it wasn’t too difficult. There's a lot of um, there's a lot of echo back and forth, but that was very easy to pick up so it actually did not take very long to learn the piece and

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I've done other pieces which are easier, but because of how difficult it is to understand the concepts, like we did this major piece called the haunted clock with a tuning fork and the piece is not hard at all, like it’s graded one, but it took forever to get the idea of okay it's the first measure and now you’ve got to repeat and keep repeating by giving me on the queue for the next section. So you know, trying a grade three piece, it's like, okay, you know, your stuff is your melody, but then it’s just an echo, and it took no time at all. Please repeat the question again. F: I actually want to ask you a follow up question because you talked about kind of your process for selecting music and you know, you can kind of tell, you know, in the ways you tell what's going to be hard and easy for the different groups. Do you believe that your experience as a composer, you know, kind of gives you any insight to, you know, kind of get to the bottom of these things faster? Or do you like does it help you see? K: Well I think, I think, they definitely go hand in hand because you know I guess because I was a conductor first, to me the core thing is okay in the piece that I write, what’s the main idea, and I kind of face off of that. When I start writing a lot, you know, I experiment with all kinds of stuff. And then when I started rehearsing some of the arrangements in a composition that I wrote, I realized this in a way out of whack because nobody can figure out what I'm trying to get or at least it’s taking a lot of effort. And I was practicing conducting approaches separately, I think they play into each other and I'm like, okay, well, you know, by writing this way I make it easier to conduct and easier for us to rehearse and by conducting this way, I can, you know, I can understand a component of text quicker and easier and explain it to each other for sure. F: Does being a conductor affect the way you write in the sense that I'm like, does it affect the way you choose your meters and metrical groupings? Um, you know, does it affect the way you deal with the technical prowess and balance and range and stuff? K: Being a conductor, yes. It’s more important than being player because you know, I won’t write things with double sharps even though it keeps things theoretically correct. I also throw theory out the window because it's just extremely to play. So, okay, this is the key you’re in b sharp minor or whatever it is or b sharp major whatever that is, A sharp minor, ok so we should have a g double sharp there but you know nobody on earth wants to read that g double sharp. So it's much easier, you know, like accidentals even though it doesn't fit with the actual key picture, it's about what what’s easier to read for the players. That’s what we go through when writing for, you know, for groups in high school or especially Middle School, is what you put in front of them to read. So you could write, which is great, some pretty complicated stuff, but a lot of it is how it looks. So in terms of what rhythms to use you know, absolutely it’s the same thing as with teaching is you know, we’re scheduling stuff it’s easier do, so you want to repeat ad nauseum, but by having a group that says the same for a while, it becomes a better tool to use your time when presenting to the [indecipherable] groups. F: Have you given composition lessons or just kind of looked at student likes pieces that your students have arranged or anything?

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K: Yeah, I had one student, she was more into song writing, but we did composition lessons a year, year and a half. She was at RIC and now I think she moved down to Georgia, she wanted to do more song writing as supposed to actual composition. F: So when giving a composition lesson, how does your experience as a conductor and as a player, because like I said, you, you know, you said you'd still do a fair amount of playing, um, how does that play a role in how you critique somebody’s piece? K: So I try to. So when teaching, I guess I try to present it this way. I teach as a composer so I’ll be like okay you know, here is melodic writing or here is [indecipherable beginning at 22:21] or hear is, you know theme [indecipherable] or there variations and let’s see how this composer did it or look at how other people did it so when the students take their own pen and tries to make variations of it, you teach the concept that the composer was using then when you go back and review their work, I try to review it as conductor or player would, saying okay, this variation is very cool the way you wrote it but no tube player could possibly play it, but I do try to teach composition as a composer. That that make sense? F: Yes. That's interesting. No one's, no one's really talked about it in that way before. That's cool. Let's go to the big philosophical ones. Where does, where does the composer's job end and the conductor's job begin? K: I’d say there’s a fair amount of overlap. So to me the composer’s job is definitely to express enough ideas or enough information so a conductor can have an accurate picture. So if I'm going to go back and use the corporal analogy that the composer has to make sure all the puzzle pieces are there and that they have the outline in the framework. So obviously, so that's puzzle that can be put together. Actually I'd go one step further and say the composer's job is to put the puzzle together and the conductor’s job is to prevent the puzzle from falling apart, to be honest. But, at the same time, you know, a composer should also be open to having the conductor swap some different pieces of stuff to allow for openness for interpretation. That’s not to say that, oh, it has to be played this way. I mean, yes, he [the conductor] wants to make sure that the composer's idea is fair, but the conductor should be allowed to do it, for example saying “Hey, can we try the faster it can we make this a little more bravado, not changing the framework of a piece, but I don't know, I guess sometimes, sometimes a conductor, I mean, their job is to show the pictures to the audience and sometimes I think that they'll have a more accurate picture, but because the conductor’s job is to relay it, they have more experience in how to prepare a piece to be successful. Does that make sense, because there are plenty of composers who don’t conduct at all. And so, and so, I remember – I can’t remember the guy’s name, you’d know him, he’s in New Jersey, Arnold Rosner, do you know Arnold Rosner? He wrote several pieces for band. He was a friend of Frank Techelli. But, um, I remember we did this piece at the end of freshman year and uh, and uh, we were doing this world premiere by him, called three [indecipherable] sketches about these pieces of ice sculpture and so there’s a lot of … F: I think I’ve hear that piece. That title sounds familiar. K: Yeah. So it's, it was not a great work of art, but as a far as I know he's never stepped on a podium and so when we were conducting it, he came up to the campus, and we rehearsed it in

237 front of him and he goes, oh, he first gave us the, you know, the typical great job, great job. You're working hard. And you could see he wanted us to try and make it exactly like the markings and it ended up being a whole lot worse that way. After the rehearsal the conductor had a very long talk and the conductor basically said we see what you were trying to write, but if we change the dynamic, we could hear the melody of the piece, the counter melody so the harmony isn’t overpowering because there's a lot of odd ranges in a lot of the instruments. Does that make sense? F: Has your interpretation of your own music ever changed from hearing somebody else conduct it? K: Oh, absolutely. And other people playing it. I remember some chamber groups in college would say let’s change this line to this just for fun and hearing people play something slightly differently or just adding a new [indecipherable] or something like that. Well that's really cool. But I do think while the big picture doesn’t usually change, interpretation certainly can. So I do think composer wants everyone to be open. F: Do you ever think you could remove yourself from one of your own pieces, uh, to the point where you could conduct it as if it was someone else's or is that impossible? K: Well, I don’t know if it’s possible because you it’s your piece and you always have that personal connection. If I want to remove myself, then I would leave the room and just go listen to the performance, which is okay too, I don’t think that is bad at all, but if you want to remove yourself then I much prefer to have someone else conduct it with their own interpretation. F: And so what are some things in particular that you really love the most about conducting your own music? K: Well, I think it's a good chance to communicate to a group of people in terms what I did and uh, you know, what values you have, not just both musically and non-musically. That was one of the first personal connections that you made when I knew you, but I first met you during American Dreams. That was like okay and you can kind of formulate what’s important to you, and that's reflected in the music. So that's definitely true. As a composer, you know, presenting my own music, or as a conductor in front of a group they say Okay, it’s also a chance to show your compositional style, all us have favorite instruments. I remember standing in front of a group, you could see the looks on some people's faces thinking this is going to be too difficult for me or this is going to be boring for me because we all have instruments that we think we favor, so just sharing a musical moment especially when it relates to something non-musical, that’s the personal connection. And, it’s easier to establish that personal connection that you raise in your own piece rather than in a piece someone else wrote because, again, you already have your own intention. F: Do you find that there are any particular challenges in conducting your own music? K: Yeah, I think so. I think one of the challenges is not to…We’ll there’s two challenges which are kind of opposite of each other, but one challenge is to make sure that you are listening to what the group does and not to what you hear in your head because you already have such a

238 good idea about how the piece should sound, you want to make sure that you're looking at what’s coming out and not at what is just sound so you can get accurate feedback. And the second is not to over rehearse because sometimes composers, or composer-conductors get worked up over a small thing and rehearse something until it’s perfectly the way that they imagined it and then they have no time for rehearsing anything else. F: Last question is, how do you feel your experience as a composer and a conductor has influenced both of these skills? K:Did you ask how has it influenced? F: You know, how do you feel that doing both has, you know, enhanced the other? K: Um, I think doing both is um, you know, while I certainly – for every conductor and teacher as well, you know, I don't know if someone doesn't want to or have the inspiration, or maybe doesn’t want to use their inspiration for writing music, I think they should at least try arranging and just like I think that's important for a composer to find some way to be involved in playing and performing a little bit because I think they give each other the other half of the picture. Because I think all of our goals are to be as well-rounded a musician as possible. Like the more we understand holistically, the more we understand all the parts and the better we can all do our jobs and the better music we can both create, play, and write. And so I think that, you know, they absolutely improve each other and as for me, you know, the uh, my understanding of theory and my understanding of compositional integrity are improved because I've tried them. By conducting you have a greater understanding of what you’re looking at when you look at other people's music. I think selecting music for a concert, you understand you're going through, you know, 10,000 new published releases and you can understand, okay, this has, you know merit because of the structural and you understand why the classics are always good even if it is overplayed once in a while. F: Well, that's it. So thank you for participating.

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Zachary Friedland Interview with David Leve June 13th, 2018

L: Hello. F: Hello. So thanks for doing this. I'm just, as you know, this is completely voluntary. You can stop at any time. Um, and just want to make sure I have permission to use your name if I actually decide to quote you directly in the document. L: Sure. F: All right, cool. Um, so the first question is just kind of a general one, do you consider yourself more composer/conductor or conductor/composer ? L: My gut reaction is saying composer/conductor because one, it sounds more phonetically pleasing, and two, it kind of fits the order of operations. One would have to first composer before one could conduct. F: Okay. L: I have been more trained as a composer than a conductor, but I have been trained in both. F: And when did you start doing each? What age did you start composing? What age did you start conducting? L: I think about the age of, let's say 16. 17. F: Cool, so when you are at a concert in the audience, do you find yourself listening more to the compositional aspects of the music or evaluating the performance of the group? L: That depends, if I am seeing a piece I have never heard before. Never heard before. I would probably say more the composition aspect of it. If I am have heard it before. I might pay more attention to the performance of this thing. F: Okay cool, And how does that question apply when you're listening to a performance or even a recording of one of your own pieces? L: I always want to conduct my own compositions, so it is actually very hard to listen to my own composition conducted by someone else. So I find myself extremely critical of things more so than myself. F: Would that change at all if you were hearing the premier of one of your pieces versus maybe like, you know, like the 10th performance of the same piece? L: I'd probably be less critical if it was not a premier and I had more recordings to go to the Minnesota state numerous times and none of the time that was performed was conducting. I would probably hold that to the recording because I wasn't a one. F: Uh, let's go into score study for a little bit. Um, how do you prepare your own scores versus the way you prepare someone else's score?

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L: I'm much more aggressive saying, preparing my own when it comes to my own scores. I've had the songs and the melodies in my head and my own composition. I don't need to do as much prep I feel because I've been sitting and thinking upon this piece from a very long time, very clear in my head what I want from you as opposed to a different page when I really started delving in to a score, like make markings everywhere, like I wanted to do this or do. That was like, one was more technical. When I'm looking at the different composition for looking at my own more artistic preparation, live in a, there's probably a greater amount of press in my own when I conduct my own proposition, but that's only because of spending more time with it because I obviously wrote it. F: Yeah. Would you. L: You almost want to exclusively write for the orchestra. F: Would you feel safe in saying that the compositional process is almost like the score study in a way? L: Oh, absolutely. F: And so likewise, do you rehearse your own music differently than you rehearse other music? L: I mean, one thing, I’m a little bit more aggressive when rehearsing my own music because I know exactly what I want a composer. I know what you're doing, Beethoven, he selected like a liberties to go because you can't read Beethoven's, my, you don't actually know what he wants. That uncertainty or taking those sorts of liberties to Beethoven's ones. It's not like I'm basically performing a piece. It's not as well known, but it will go a bit differently because not only are you working with your opinion of a different components, what working with the opinion of everyone and they'll have their opinion of how it could, especially if they played, they can't really argue with you because you're the one that wrote it. F: Yeah. You mention, um, the idea of being more aggressive with your own music because you know exactly what you want. Um, and put this, um, do you, uh, do you think it's ever possible to remove yourself from one of your pieces? And furthermore, like do you think it's ever possible to conduct your own piece as if it were someone else's? L: No, I don't believe I could do that because it was mentioned you have your own idea because I see it as opposed to somewhere else and a new composition. We can't ignore the fact that you wrote it, you had some biases, biases, but have some sort of preconceived idea to be able to get around that when you're the one who wrote it. It's impossible. You can't ignore that completely, so we can get close, but it's not the same. F: Um, so to further on that idea, I'm kind of of this whole project. Started back when I was in Undergrad and for my senior composition recital, I had three band pieces and I conducted them all with the group. Um, and Brian Carney was playing French horn in the ensemble. And so after him I went up to one of the, um, I went up to him after one of the rehearsals and I said, how do you think it went? Do you have any advice? Um, and he said, try to think more like the composer, then the conductor. Um, and so I've always thought about that piece of advice for a

241 long time. So the question would be one, what do you think that might mean to. Do you think there is a time to think like the composer and the time to think like the conductor in three? How are those thoughts different in your mind? L: Cool. Say it again so I can get it in my head. F: Sure. Sorry. Where do you want me to start from? L: What told you that exact phrase? F: He said try to think more like the composer. It's sorry. He said try to think more like the conductor. Then the composer L: When we're composing? F: When I was conducting. This was after. It was right after rehearsal. L: While you're conducting is more like the conductor than composer, correct? F: Correct. Yeah, definitely. What does that mean to me? I guess you could possibly interpret it more practically than aesthetically. Because a composer can quite literally put anything down on a piece of paper conducted with the one that we get that out of the paper. So one is like a a list that means to me it's like one person does the architect. The other burden is actually building the building. We are designing wonderful arches and the columns, but at the end of the day, they're not the ones who actually have to deal with those things that make sure that they can hold their weight. The architecture. Keep that in mind when designing these thing was the builder is the one that makes me happy. So there's another word I would use for building, but I can't think of something to say architects. So to me that means. Well, think about the creation of the music, how we're going to produce that music into reality. How are you going to go put on the paper, bring the music out of the tape. That's what that means to me. Close the second part. F: Do you think there is a time to think like the composer and a time to think like the conductor and how were those thoughts different in your mind? L: Oh, absolutely. Especially for someone who does both. You have to be able to flip the on and off switch. Bye. Bye. L: What I write, I always see how that will be produced in my, what I get for reading orchestration textbooks for fun. What did you do the time for both of my, uh, for example, like let's say you got a good orchestra. When you finally got the down, all the technical aspects were covered. They're hitting all the right notes, all the right dynamic for then you can start playing, I guess composer, it seemed more like a letter. So I'll put a note, a brings down a good verdict because even in some of the dynamic, there's a range of dynamics that that metal fortes, competition. We've never had a standardized decibel rating for myself. Wasn't kills as many languages, city, but even then many for some reason, the fourth reason we give a number between 101 point 115 or something. Well, I think that. So when we first to reversing you conducted with the more you need technical support, you can be more creative mess when you can kind of switch to a composer. Mothers, when they have all the notes, when they have

242 everything, everything that's written on the paper, when they have that down, you can start applying, not written on the paper that we got the product dive into the component is my, what they really wanted to take creative liberty because that's when you can compose. It sucks to be technical. Things all nailed down. F: Great. Um, so are there things you love in particular about conducting your own music? L: Yep. I very much like ended, so I'm different. I'm very loud and very, uh, you know, I would live out. So I think like I do like being able to move along. I preferred music a lot of times, like I sort of feel me as opposed to color. The movement which is actually quite collect sounds and we're very basic form is just like oscillation of particles, which is a movement. So that poetic would that the best I had ever felt is when I'm conducting my own use, if that is when I am at the peak of existence, in my opinion, that as bad as the feeling that you cannot simulate unless in that reading a rule of your own domain being a creator of the universe and you're just kind of direct them had been a general and commanding the create. The good news is it's very enjoyable. I feel like I started the run off from what was the question was. F: Are there things that you love in particular about conducting your own music, and for you it seems to be, you know, just not feeling of… L: I was starting to get that feeling so that I love about what is required of you in terms of questions. This really resonates about why I do that through great experiences, wonderful composer. A lot of the time it's very solitary and you're by yourself as opposed to looking duster. Literally work with musicians and to have that many people in a room with all creating music is one of the best experiences that I believe are human things, which is why liked it so much. That's about it. F: Great. Um, are there particular challenges that you find in conducting your own music? L: I think you realize that the thing you wrote is Impossible. One of the earliest lessons I learned as a composer with players need to breathe at some point, so very positive. It that when I'm writing, I really put it to rest and take a breath. Also, you can struggle when you have very clear sound in your head that you want with can produce, whether it's not understanding what you want, whether it's not possible to get what you want, what players good enough to get the sound that you want to good and they have an ego and they refused to play with you. One thing your music is now not only your music, our music, you were musicians, so it's not, it's not a fit, but you have to relinquish some control and coming from someone with a control physical. Anytime I write a piece for me and I'm not involved with in many ways, I get extremely anxious and prejudice. I need to be involved with it in some way, which is why I like it doesn't so like whenever I've written chamber music and perform it and we were sitting there in the audience twiddling your thumbs hoping it goes all right, but the challenges that you're working with a bunch of other people who may have their own opinions, they have their own thoughts and then strongly disagree with something you did. Maybe something that you'd say some beautiful sounds horrible. The case with a lot of 21st century music, but one of the challenges, if you're willing to embrace the fact that you know you're not working by yourself and you have to be able work with them because when you use it for the last thing you want, maybe

243 something you wrote down isn't the best way to do something. I remember when composer who was writing for hugs and he was trying to do the diagram at the Hartford. We're playing and we're like people to say, Hey, we appreciate you trying to learn this, but this is horrible for as opposed to me. I just put in the notes. I may just the pedal. This is specifically in terms of the workload. You're coming to the stage. Even as a conductor, you only played a handful who had played every single instrument that districts will to the same level that all the musicians but very rare and so you have to kind of tasted like maybe the bowling out the best way to get the sound that you want. Basically what we are actually really exhausted from both in positions with entity, it's going to be difficult. F: Okay. L: To acknowledge that you will not the be all end all. You have to work with people there about the knowledge in order to get the sound because the sound set. F: So you mentioned, um, you know, when you talk about that, would you say that being a conductor affects the way that you think about things like range and technical prowess and balance when you compose? L: Oh, absolutely. I am notorious for not writing easy music, my music is difficult, but it over years it's gotten possible to play. My conducting has absolutely informed what I write because when I write things I want them to be played. Whatever things I want them to be great. It's not good writing them stuff, but that's not the point. Wasn't amazing her by a hundred people and because of that I would keep that in mind like I know what my name is to put it. If I want to be heard. I know that if I write a little blue line, I can't separate. You're reading the high profit line at the same time. This gonna show her power. I did all those flu in a hospital. Those lovely and I'm quite close to place falsely because I love the movie doesn't work by writing to the point where I will put your host, mugging me because I like to just get them to let them know I know what you're thinking here to tiffany. Three bedroom with Boeings on trade positions, on trombone. All of that has informed his leg straightens quite balanced to sunglasses because I've experienced that. I've run into things when we performed. It is always isn't possible and I know a lot of composers. I remember when I was a composer, I was always told, never go to your pieces first for her because it will destroy you or how poorly it's played or something like that. I actually encouraged the opposite. Go to the first room, but difficult for me. The hard stuff I wrote, I wrote a stupidly advanced. There's any part a tiffany and I were really hard for a player. He can't do that that greatly, so absolutely so your feet because that's then you will know that, oh, this figure I wrote is difficult. If I was to ever write a paper like this, begin acknowledge pickles, they're not going to get more difficult and you might decide that you want to do a figure like that. Absolutely informed my writing. F: And had being a conductor also influenced the way you choose a metrical groupings for meters and then you might. You might do like meat or changes. L: Okay, so I'm going to say yes because I believe it's a human conduct metrically thinking, their composition and the reason I say no because I was already doing that from the get go. I was in high school so I was already very much associating movement with my writing a compound. I

244 was already moving in a very specific way and if I were to conduct. This was when I first thought of the idea, so I would encourage the conductor. That same movement in the one, two, three, one, two, three, one, two, eight, eight meter. Figure out what I'm thinking in my head. I'm going to write it that way, but if I go up there and the composers conducting, I figured one, two, one, two, one, two, one, two. I'm going to have issue with that because that's not how it progressed from the get go and I think this is just the fact that I was against that. I was so full that I bet it influenced by it from the get go. Having not even conducted yet without the problem. Come to the fact that I was a DJ for a period of time. So my whole job was to make people dance. So I say yes and no. Yes, because I believe it says that that is the way it says it does happen and no, because it didn't really change what I was doing that it was already doing that in the beginning. F: Gotcha. I want to get back to you really like conducting your own music. Um, and you. So I'm just wondering, has your interpretation of your own music ever changed by hearing someone else conduct it? L: Every piece of mine that I have heard someone else conduct has never changed what I heard in my head. For some others it's actually a young composer and more, but for me again, never changed if they did something differently than what I heard in my head. My good reaction is to go because they did it wrong. What does that. Even as a young composer, I always wanted to conduct my own works regardless, regardless of whatever other conductor was doing it. I always remember it interlocking years ago, almost eight years, eight, nine years ago when you bought a. and there was a conductor doing it and I wanted, I wanted to do it, but they wouldn't let me, so I think I sit down and let the guy who I can't listen to that mostly because it was a savory and that's why they wouldn't let me conducted one of the, conducted to get through the reference to get through the technical aspects because they were so focused on the technical aspects with the medical aspects. But I want, because the final quote final courses I'm wondering for somebody fell out of the check. No, I could never. I could not give you one example of one of the conductor things up with my work and that hadn't warmed the sound that I had already in my head. F: In your opinion, where does the composer's job and, and the conductor's job begin? L: Assuming that they are the same person or different people? F Just in general. Um, and then if you want to address it more specifically, but just just in general, you know, kinda like what's your idea of artistic license? Where does L: As long as the composer is alive and can communicate coherently, they will always be the final thing on the conductor has to work with. With them dead, then the doctor can take creative license with creative license beforehand, just the component or is okay with it, but at the end of the day, the composer is the one who wrote the work and they should have the final say in it. They're able to, um, and it's sometimes if they're there, they want to sound the sound is not possible to get the closest thing to it that, you know, we can't, but the conductor's job is to realize the music that was in the components. So you know, the components of rick composer's job and starting to. We've never done until. They can't literally do. It enables you to start when, well, you know, it's scheduled to be performance when you guys, you will agree to this, this is going to be

245 a performance of it so that it doesn't job start with the agreement. There's going to be a performance of it that way. But that's the concept that jumps into the store and start studying it. So by that logic, the composers assuming that both are alive, the composer's job never, never stopped ever until the day. It doesn't matter if the people will be the spirit, it's going, it starts with performing. For the conductor's job is to conduct your job, and as soon as that piece is not going to be performed again, it's for people that are being performed to get this job will always be series of starting and ending and started attending. Every time this piece is going to be performed at the composers never start. It's always going and the day of the composers like me to constantly thinking about music. That's kind of how I view it is not really hard to cut off and frequently. In fact, almost always the composer conductor, we're working alongside each other. It will only the old time, but it's the composers gods. It was a composer in the process of writing it and when you know before it's going to be performed or conducted is only the conductor's job wasn't become hunger games who can no longer communicate, but for the most part, both are alive. It wasn't together to where the decision that this piece will be important, just like a simple graph, but if you look at him to get horribly complicated. F: Yeah, let's move to, uh, when you are giving someone a composition lesson, do you find that your experience as a conductor plays a strong role in the way you critique their piece? L: Yes, because as a conductor I know what is easy to do and what is hard to do [inaudible]. Even when I was getting my lessons, the same thing happened. I think there's so many ones they're not going to be hurt by. This is very much the frequency range, the opposite of whatever you're trying to get across because again, it comes up to the practical composer that work in tandem to create a really good immediately, but I was, I remember that many of my contribution as well as the lessons I teach currently. It was a line and I'm like, I'm looking at him like I'm not gonna be able to say that you're going to lose all this notes. This is gonna sound like much. F: Now, I also want to talk about just in general, the the classes that you teach. Okay. Could you just describe, just describe for the interview, just kind of what, what kind of classes are you teaching now? L: I am currently a professor and the professor of audio books and audio is more focused on the technology. So I teach everything from music, appreciate to know recording techniques for the microphone. F: Okay. Um, and focusing specific. Sorry, go ahead. L: Well, I here, what would you say? F: Um, so let's take the class for example. Has being a composer and conductor affected the way you designed your curriculum for that class? L: Not really. Either complete the way it's been a quick rundown in history. Um, I thought that class the very earliest example of music, but when I taught that class last year, 2017, I had to attend to humble from his . That was a surprise. So I'm justified in that day. No, I cannot see being more being a composer expect besides for that class with me as a listener that

246 influences me, is interested in the history and the current state of the user. It genuinely influence needed. F: Just a couple more. If you were in charge of say a as a school orchestra, you know, maybe look at university orchestra, um, would being a composer/conductor influenced the way that you programmed, L: Yes, but only in the sense that I would encourage composer to take conducting, and conductors to take composing so they can get a taste of the other side, absolutely encouraged. F: Mhm. L: Um, but I was forced to both sides. Could we take some of the other stuff so they get an experience that'll help them because the experiences I have will be valuable. F: Um, and if you were programming for concert and you were looking at a bunch of new scores for the first time, where would your mind go first? Would you kind of evaluate the composition first or would you immediately start thinking about it? The piece was going to be a good fit for your group? L: I would pick the pieces I believe the group will be able to pull off, but it might be difficult to me. Like you don't have the facts of everything I'm positioned in the world. I will pick the songs. Some of them will be too hard and we won't be able to get a living. No, they not be a good fit because we won't be able to reproduce what the composer one take out. I'll fix the feet. Is that my officers that we produced with the composer. F: Cool. L: So, skill level with base of how difficult pieces but also show something like that. I was leaning forward probably the composers have more realistic expectations of the orchestra as opposed to grandiose and hopefully we don't need to, you know, drop the extension that I double bass. F: Um, so the last question is really, um, is there, are there any other ways that you feel your experience as a composer and conductor has influenced and possibly enhanced both of those skills for you over the course of your, um, work and school and beginning of your career? L: Being a conductor has greatly improved my ear, which was invaluable because I could hear melodies in my head real quickly. Jot them down, knowing what the hell on the side. I know how I like my opposition. So this was like a lot of that I know how to say it. And so then I'll strip it, understanding what both help the other with. It's often hard to describe it, but that's really the best I could do it, but I absolutely helped each other in ways that I could have never seen. F: Alrighty. Thank you very much. You've been a tremendous help.

247

Zachary Friedland Interview with Timothy Mahr June 11th, 2018

Friedland: Before we get started, I just wanted to once again, let you know, this is completely voluntary. If you wanna stop the interview at any time, you can. And, I just wanna make sure that I have your permission to use your name and your job title in the document, should I choose to quote anything you've said.

Mahr: Yeah, that's all fine.

F: Alrighty. Awesome. So, yeah, if you're ready we can get started.

M: I am ready.

F: Alrighty. So, my first question is just kind of, do you consider yourself more composer/conductor, or conductor/composer?

M: Well, seeing how I'm employed by a college with a good ... This past three years with two bands, I think it was point six seven of my load. But as a conductor-

F: Yeah.

M: That's what's paying the bills.

F: Yeah.

M: You know. So, I have always considered myself to be a conductor who also composes. I make jokes about people who I think are really composers, as opposed to people who are [inaudible 00:01:14] a little bit more. I mean, I'm seriously trying to carve out time to compose because I'm a conductor. And someone like Frank Ticheli has just the opposite kind of pull on his time.

F: Yeah. Did you start doing one before the other or was it kind of ...

M: Well, I'm always doing both, you know. I'm fortunate to have commissions lined up into the future. I always have writing jobs ahead of me and it's been that way for the majority of my career. But, it's a juggling act to make sure that I'm studying my scores and doing my programming and doing everything that a conductor needs to do and also finding the time to compose.

F: When did you start composing? At what age?

M: Oh, about eighth grade, ninth grade.

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F: Eighth grade, okay, cool. And so, did you start doing that before you started taking conducting lessons?

M: Yeah, yeah, you know, I had a chance to conduct the high school band during my junior and senior year being at La Crosse Central High School. My elderly band director, one year his wife passed away and another year he had a heart attack and needed to rest for a while and they just asked who wanted to conduct. They put the choir director in the back of the room to make sure that the discipline was okay and I took over for, you know, a couple weeks. Had a chance to conduct pieces of concerts and it was fantastic. My mom was the church choir director so I had always seen her waving her arms and making music. It didn't seem hard, you know. It looked like fun.

F: Yeah.

M: And I did a Sound of Music medley in my junior year and my senior year I did the Ritual Fire Dances de Falla because I always liked that piece.

F: That's cool. Yeah, same thing happened to me, our high school band director was out for a number of weeks and, you know, the substitutes that came in, they didn't specialize in music. So, they said, "Well, we might as well do something." And yeah, they had students come up and conduct. That was when I knew I wanted to be a music major, when I was able to stand up in front of the band and -

M: Yeah.

F: It's that feeling that ... I knew I didn't want to do anything else every day for the rest of my life.

M: Yep.

F: All right. So, when you are at a concert in the audience, do you find yourself listening more to the compositional aspects of the piece or evaluating the performance of the group?

M: Well, that depends on the group, you know. And what I mean by that is, and I tell my students this, the highest compliment I can pay you after, you know, I sat through your routine or recital or something like that is, you allowed me to have a direct relationship with the composer's music that you are performing. During the Haydn and I'm having an experience with Haydn and I'm not hearing you perform on your trumpet anymore. You know, I've gone past the performer to the composer. And I think that's the mark of a really well prepared piece and is the goal that I have as a conductor. I want to make sure to use the title of the book, to be a composer's advocate.

F: Yes.

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M: I've got to do everything I can to make sure that the composer's music is directly going to the listener's soul, you know.

F: Yeah.

M: That connection is paramount to me.

F: Would you say being a composer yourself effected the way you read that book and the way you interpreted that book?

M: Oh, I certainly do.

F: So, the question I asked you about listening and, you know, kinda what you're listening for, how does that question apply when you're listening to a performance or even just a recording on one of your own compositions?

M: That's a nice angle to take with that question. At that point in time I'm intrigued by how the conductor is interpreting the notation and I'm always hopeful with my own writing as well as the teaching that I do in my composition classes. The concern is the translation of idea, that's direct enough so that there isn't any question as to what should be done at this point or that point. You know, I don't mind having a little wiggle room for interpretation but it's such an inexact system of notation, that it's a struggle to get what you have in your mind and in your heart into graphite or ink, on a piece of paper, to the point that someone else can interpret it without you having anymore input at that point in time and have it come out and be very close to what you wanted to have happen in the first place.

F: Yeah.

M: I do a session on this very topic. I've been doing it for years. I call it some thoughts on score study from the composer's perspective. So, I've been talking about this stuff for a quarter century or something like that. And one of the things that I do is I'll just start with a blank staff on a chalkboard or whiteboard or something like this. Then I'll make a circular note head and I tell them, "Every time I make a mark, listen internally. I want you to hear what I'm writing." And I'll go through filling in the note head, adding a stem, putting a dot on the note head, putting an accent over it, tying it to another note, if it's a sixteenth note, making it a fortepiano, crescendo up to fourth slow release, little markings on it, I write in adagio then I put it in alto clef. You know, 'cause most of them were hearing it in their home clef.

F: Yeah.

M: I hadn't added that basic information. And by the time I'm all done, it's usually about 15 to 18 markings, that have spots that define one little moment. And because I use alto clefs I joke with it a bit and say, "Now imagine that I've given each of you a viola," which would be a stupid thing to do and they all laugh. And then have each one of you play that and each one of you is gonna

250 make a different sound. And that's just one moment in a piece of music. Imagine if this were a moment within a Mahler symphony or something like that.

F: Yeah.

M: How often the pencil or the pen has gone to the page to try to capture such an inexact art form. It's an amazing process. It floors me every time I hear people make decent music happen because the process itself is just loaded with problems.

F: That's awesome. Have you ever seen, there's this video on YouTube that's, I think it's the first three notes, those first three chords of the Eroica by a bunch of different conductors and it sounds different every time.

M: Oh, yeah.

F: It's like 20 or something different performances, yeah. So, kind of along the lines, that leads nicely into another question I had for you and that's, in your mind where does the composer's job end, and the conductor's job begin? What is your idea of artistic license?

M: It's a matter of integrity, is what I try to instill within myself and my conducting students, that you studied the score, you studied about the composer, all the usual things you read about, you know, score preparation and so on, that you've really done your homework so that if you're making an artistic decision about the rate of a ritardando, the length of a fermata, the amount of stylus before going on, you know, all these small little interpretive ideas. Let alone larger architectural concerns and tempo concerns and things along those lines, that you're doing these, making these decisions from a base that's grounded in integrity.

F: Mhm.

M: The other example that I bring up with this is the fact that when the Mahler were starting to come into their heyday back in the 60s, with Bernstein being the champion, you'd see big LP covers and you'd see the name Bernstein across the top in about a four inch tall letter and then underneath his name, centered would be Mahler, very small.

F: Yeah.

M: You know? And I just pose the question to them that shouldn't that really be the other way around?

F: Mhm

M: You know?

F: Yeah.

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M: So, there is that rather moveable point of transition from composer to conductor and it's by and large, I think, on the composer's shoulders. We have some people writing who offer a rather minimal amount of information in their scores. And this is the bane of educational music. You know, you'll have an entire piece for middle school band that'll be marked forte at the beginning for a march or something like that and there won't be any other dynamic marking for the entire two and a half, three minute piece, et cetera.

F: Yeah.

M: It's sort of lazy editing.

F: Mhm.

M: On the other hand, you run into people who are fastidious about this, almost anal about it, you know what I mean?

F: Yeah.

M: They're almost over marking things. I've written an article on the piece Color, by Bob Margolis, do you know this one?

F: I do know that piece, yep.

M: Yeah, you know, it's a great little bit of writing. It's one of my core pieces for guest conducting. And that's an example of someone who's gone to the other end of the spectrum. There's hardly a note in the piece that doesn't have an articulation marking on it, very specific dynamics, incredibly specific orchestration. And it's a stronger piece of music because of that. And he had his sense of how he wanted the thing to be delivered and it's very clearly, well, it's about as clear as the notational system will allow him to be.

F: Yeah.

M: All that stuff. It depends on where along that spectrum the composer says, okay, I'm done, send it to the printer, you know. Then it's handed off to the others. The other thing I do in exception quite often is I'll take my score, I'll do this with honor bands as well, I'll just hold up my score and say, "What is this?" And they'll say, "It's music." And I say, "No, it's not music at all. What is this?" And eventually they get around to saying, "Well, it's really just black ink on a page."

F: Yep.

M: You know? Okay, so, where's the music then? We have this whole discussion about that. And when I'm giving the session for the conductors, I'll get down on one knee in front of the participants and I'll say, you know, when I get done with a piece of music, it's, I get down on a

252 knee and I hand it off to the conductor and I say, "Please don't screw up." 'Cause at that point, I have nothing else I can put into this score that I feel you need to make this happen effectively. Okay, so the ball's in your court now. You study this, you internalize this, you hold it dear in your heart and teach it with conviction and all these other things that need to happen so that the performance will have as much meaning as possible.

F: Right. And has your interpretation of your own music ever changed at all when you've heard someone else conduct it?

M: Yes.

F: Yeah.

M: A number of times. And I'm always absolutely, there's a good old word, god smacked, or something like that, flabbergasted, you know. You get hit over the head. I've changed the way I interpret my own music as a conductor based on what I've heard other conductors do with it. And that's the magic of the music, and the magic of the interpretation. They perceive a musical potential for a moment in the score that went beyond what my initial conception was for that moment.

F: Mhm.

M: I hope that makes sense.

F: Yeah.

M: My piece Fantasia in G, I don't know if you know this piece or not, at the end of it there's a sort of a high chord and then a low chord and then a release and a real percussion hit and then a final chord.

F: Mhm

M: Somebody did it where they had the trumpets hold through and they put more time before the last chord, or the percussion came back and just made a little bit more of a dramatic ending of it. And I thought, oh god, why didn't I think of that? You know?

F: Yeah.

M: Yeah, I've got a number of examples I could share like that. It's just that that gets right to the heart of what we're talking about. These conductors try all to understand the notations to the very best of their musical abilities and their inner sense of what might happen.

F: Mhm.

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M: Following a path of meaning for that moment that came true to them. And it was a slightly different path than what I thought. It was convincing and exciting and something I stole from them.

F: And has the opposite ever happened? Has someone ever, has another composer ever told you, "Wow, I never thought of my music being done in that ..."

M: Yeah. Yeah, you mean, have I as a conductor been able to do that to another composer?

F: Yeah. Correct.

M: Yeah. A few times. I think maybe that might have happened in part because I am a composer.

F: Mhm.

M: At the very top of the sheets that I hand out for these sessions, I share a quote from Paul Claudel, he's a French poet and playwright and diplomat, sort of a kind of guy. And he says the poem is not made from these letters that I drive in like nails, but of which remains on the paper. As soon as I read that quote, I thought oh, that's it exactly. Just another way of saying it. The poem's not making these letters that I drive in like nails, I love that imagery of the hard work of creating the poem, you know, putting the nails into it and so on. But the poem's not made from these letters that I drive in like nails, but of the weight which remains on the paper.

F: Mhm.

M: You know, it's like you are entrusting the reader to find the true meaning. You're entrusting the conductor and the musicians and the listener to find the true meaning, which is such an elusive art form with an archaic notational system controlling it. You know?

F: Yeah, indeed.

M: It's an interesting thing to think about that because there's a new notational system coming out, and then there's Dorico coming out.

F: Yeah, a couple guys at Ohio State have started using the trial for Dorico. They say they like it. They say there's a few kinks that they think have to work out. But so far, they seem to ...

M: Well, yeah, the thing that's exciting to me about that ... I'm waiting for the kinks to get worked out, you know. But basically there are 25 years worth of little fix-its with duct tape and gum holding things together. Something went wrong and they put a patch in and won't put out a new version. Both of those are long histories of [inaudible 00:21:05], you know. And Dorico supposedly is starting over from scratch. I guess if that's ... Wouldn't that be great if we could do that with our notational system?

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F: Yeah.

M: It's an impossible thing to actually have happen. For example, all of our crescendos look like the standard wedge with the angle going up and going down in symmetrical relation to one another, then what if they decided that just that marking itself should be a little bit more accurate as to what it shows, a little bit more of a curved top line, a straight bottom line, something like this.

F: Mhm

M: To show the timing of the crescendo a little bit more effectively.

F: Yeah.

M: To maybe get across what we're trying to get across because we've been doing this stuff for hundreds and hundreds of years.

F: Well it's interesting what you say with the crescendos because especially in the case of a really long, you know if you have a longer crescendo, I can't tell you how many times I've heard the conductor will say, "Save most of the crescendo for the end."

M: The conductor?

F: Yeah. And that's not-

M: If it's less from the bottom. But if it's from the top, yeah that's good. All of those basic things that we have to stop and tell and teach because they don't show up in the notation.

F: Yeah.

M: And, so, being a composer is a challenging, you know, artistic expression.

F: Mhm

M: If you handle that, if you handle that very problem with the tools we get to use have limitations upon them.

F: So, kind of moving into another area. Again, kind of a general thing. How do you prepare your own scores verus preparing other composers scores?

M: Oh, I am terrible at that. I guess the only times I've been caught thinking well I know this, I wrote it. I had to in all honestly be smart enough that I have to start over from square one with my own score and study it like it would be a score from another composer. That's the best way for me to get it ready as the conductor. If I rely on the fact that I wrote it, that I must know it

255 really well, I do, but the interface at that moment is strictly from the composer's viewpoint and it's not from the conductor's viewpoint.

F: Yeah.

M: I shouldn't say 100%. Because in all honesty, I think that I'm writing my scores from the conductor's viewpoint often. I'm thinking about how to make a transitional moment and not only little bits and so on.

F: Yes.

M: Effectively handled. So I'm not creating undue problems for the performers and things like that.

F: Yeah. And... do you ever, so. Do you ever find that the process of composing the piece itself kind of almost is like score study or...?

M: No. I wouldn't go that far.

F: Okay.

M: The first thing that I deal with in the sessions that I give, I talk to them about the decisions that are made. That would be having a basic conducting strategy and the decisions that are already made by the composer. And, so we talk about sort of the journalist questions, the who, what, when, where, how, you know, that kind of aspect of understanding what's going on in the piece.

F: Mhm

M: But the next question is the most important one I think, and that's why. Why is this happening? Once they start thinking about that, from a composer's perspective, then I think they're digging a little bit deeper into understanding the motor at work that is driving the piece. The life force that's halfway underneath the skin of the piece, you know.

F: Yeah.

M: And then, we'll talk about the fact that you can go find facsimiles of the Beethoven sketches and you'll see all sorts of things that are crossed out, you know. He's writing a piano or something like that, a few stuff that's capped and other stuff that's just eliminated.

F: Mhm

M: And that's just a written record of the decision making process.

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F: Mhm

M: Like when I talk to a lay audience about composition, and you know, they think it's sort of magic, you know. Just pulling this stuff out of thin air.

F: There's always been a big cloud of mystery around what musicians do.

M: Yup. You know, it's a perplexes them a little bit. And I say, it's really quite simple. My job is three words long. Make decisions. Act. You know? And I can be sitting there in a chair, looking out the window, and people might think that I'm just daydreaming or not working, but I'm actually working at the deepest level possible. You know, I'm trying to hear. I'm sorting things out. I'm considering the various moves and options that are available at any given point in time. I mean this is a great thing to explore with the conductor, you know, with a piece of music. We've reached this point in the score, this is what has happened up to that point. Now, can you imagine what could happen next? And then this composer choose to do this particular thing next, why does that make sense? Can you, you know, come to a level of understanding about that decision as to why that is the only thing that should happen next. And believe it so convincingly that you have no trouble then convincing your performers to buy in as well.

F: Mhm.

M: And you all negotiate that roll through with great heart.

F: And when you say, when you talk about that process, make decisions, act, would you say that process applies both to composing music and conducting music?

M: Very good question. Yeah, I guess I do. I've got my conductor hat on right now and I'm thinking of open. I need to still be on the podium to the sounds, the textures, everything that's coming at me and staying somewhat fluid with that, so I know how to mold that basic material to the best of my ability. I might be working with a really fine regional band for example, and, you know, grade five piece or something like this. And I've gotten to the point where I've already figured out in my mind what should happen there. But, they're not ready yet for that. So what do I need to adjust so they'll be faithful and convincing in the performance and so on. I could do the same piece for the St. Olaf Band and they're bringing me a different level of preparation and possibility in their sound and I can go after that moment with a truer bit of music making that's tied directly to my initial make decisions and act kind of score study.

F: I want to go back to something that you said earlier, about how you think that perhaps the best way to prepare one of your own scores is just to kind of look at it as a completely new piece and, so, the question is, do you ever find it harder to remove yourself from one of your own pieces in that regard? Do you think it's really possible to conduct your own piece as if it were someone else's?

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M: I haven't had that experience yet. It's not that it couldn't, I guess. But you end up being so directly tied to the piece, you birthed the thing, you know?

F: Yeah.

M: We talked about the fact that this is a process that involves the conception, the gestational period, the laboring process, through the birthing of it, then the premier, then it has a life. So, it's going to analogized into that kind of thinking. There's something always in the back of my mind when I'm conducting my own pieces that still has this boyish wonder over the fact that I can't believe this is happening, you know?

F: Yeah.

M: Even if I've been famous for over 40 years now, it's still a wonder that anybody else wants to make my music happen a little longer. You know, the band in front of me, it hasn't lost its magic, you know?

F: Yeah. Definitely. I can definitely relate to that experience.

M: Are you a composer as well?

F: I am. Yeah. All of my degrees are in composition.

M: Okay, very good.

F: Yeah, so and I've been writing for bands since high school. That's what got me into music, so I've been conducting my own works for a long time as well and that's kind of where this next question stems from. It's kind of the reason why this whole project exists, because I've been thinking about this for so many years. For my senior recital in undergrad, at the University of Rhode Island, for the second half of the program, I had three band pieces and, you know, put the group together and came to conduct them all. And after one of the rehearsals, one of my professors, one of the band directors was playing French Horn in the ensemble and I went up to him after and I said, "Do you have any advice? Any observations about how it went?" And he said, "Try to think more like the conductor than the composer." And so that has always kind of stuck with me as you know, is there a time when you're conducting your own music to think like the composer? And is there a time to think like the conductor? And how are those thoughts different in your mind?

M: That's interesting. Was that Franzblau? Or who was it?

F: That was Brian Cardany. I went to the University of Rhode Island.

M: Yeah, where does he teach at?

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F: He teaches at Rhode Island College, which is up in Providence.

M: Oh okay.

F: Yeah, we're down in southern Rhode Island. We're down in Kingston. Now, do you know Gene Pollart?

M: I know his name, but I haven't met him yet.

F: Yeah, Gene is the director of bands. Then, Brian is associate director.

M: Okay. Well I guess what they might have been getting at was that if someone tells me to think more like a conductor, perhaps related to the pedagogical aspect of being out on the box, can you be in more in teacher mode listening to the sounds, helping them improve their sound, increase ensemble precision, tighten-up rhythm, work on blend, you know all of that stuff. If he says that you are thinking on the box almost like a composer, it might have been that there was a lot of slop working its way through that we're not catching, you know? And that's, in all honesty, a real expense. I have this happen all the time, Zach, you know. I did a couple of adjudications at festivals this spring and it reminded me again. I'll be sitting on a panel and you're all close enough, I did one that was worlds of fun down in Kansas City and we were only about five feet apart from each other, so I could hear the comments the other guys were making into the recorders, you know. And they were all going after nit-picky production issues. You know, you need a starter reed on your clarinet section. You know, that kind of stuff. Which is like number 29 on my list of what I care about when I'm listening to their band.

F: Yeah.

M: And, because I guess you asked at the beginning, am I a composer or conductor, I guess I'm maybe more of a composer. Because I'm listening to the expression and the sound and, you know, the larger compositional issues perhaps. And these guys were boring right down into the technical guts of it. That also, you know, is absolutely crucial, but not what's at the forefront in my mind. I think we frame the fact the people think that the [inaudible 00:37:07] band is really a . But they really think we play with great expression and heart and, you know, we're also strong enough and I can trick this long enough, that we're technically pretty clean. To be honest [crosstalk 00:37:23], we're doing well in that regard. Given two performances as life's work said to me, if one was technically clean, but didn't get at the heart of the piece, and the other one was a little bit sloppy, but just was dripping with everything I tried to put into the score, you know which one I'd want.

F: Of course.

M: Every time. As I think about the comment, think more like the conductor than the composer, at least my interpretation of what he was getting at was you know your own music so well and you know all the little details you want to hear, you know. You know, sometimes it's the little

259 details that you think about, because you know you put those in there are kind of take over the bigger picture, which I think is important to you. Like when you said, about teacher mode, I think it's important to make sure that you're not only, you're looking at the big picture, and not just about the details that are important to you, but you know, what's important to the ensemble.

F: Yeah.

M: I got a piece that if I do it, it's five and a half minutes long and the publisher hired out a professional group in New York to make the music demo recording of it. And it comes in at about seven minutes. And you look at that percentage change and duration and the piece is just a brand new piece as far as I'm concerned.

F: Yeah that's a big difference. It's kind of getting into a different area, when you are giving someone a composition lesson, how does your experience being a conductor play into the way that you critique their piece?

M: Primarily, getting at the level of sophistication they use with their notations. Is it clear? Can you hand this to me as the conductor and not talk to me again? Have no contact with me and have this come back to you sounding the way you think it's supposed to sound? And then I'll bore in a little bit and say for example, let me hear what you really want me to do with this. Because I could take it this way, I could take it that way, because their score is just very vague at this point, you know? So I think that's primarily where the conductor thing comes in.

F: Yeah.

M: The whole thing. But I've got a young woman doing, we've got undergraduate research projects on our campus, it's great. She makes four grand writing a piece for my band during the summer, it's a great summer job for her. And, she is hearing things in E Major, you know. Fluid stuff and we can play it, but I just had to sit down and say, okay let's talk about transforming instruments for a second. And, you know, this E Major result for the B Flat instruments, E Flat instruments. Then her eyes got wide, you know? Then her eyes got wide, you know. She figured out what was going on. So it was that kind of stuff too.

F: And so in composing, just being a conductor would it affect the way you choose your metrical groupings and just the way you kind of think about the ranges, the instruments and technical prowess and balance and all that?

M: Oh yes, yes. For the younger composer especially, who is first taking on whether they're ready for band or whether they're ready for a string trio, these are pretty new experiences for them. You went through it yourself, you know?

F: Oh for sure.

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M: There's some things that needs to happen. I think my biggest advantage was, even though it wasn't required as a composition major, I loved taking the methods classes cause you just got to play the instruments, you got to, just kind of get a sense of it. Hopefully that's required for any comp degree in this country. They've gotta get their hands dirty trying to play these instruments.

F: Alrighty. So let's see ... does being a composer affect the way that you program at all?

M: I would have to say that my answers gonna be, "Yes," to all of these questions that you've asked because that's who I am, I am both. And I don't think that I go onto any aspects of my job just from one side of it. I think it's ... the programming is a little bit more lenient on the conductor side of rather than the composer side of it. But I do feel that my sense of ... what's being expressed and how it's being expressed and so on ... comes into play with how I put together the flow of a program.

And when you're looking at someone else's score for the first time, do you find yourself looking first at kind of like evaluating the composition or do you think more of just, is this a good fit for my group? I'm evaluating the composition.

F: Okay.

M: Yeah yeah. It's what's the value of this piece of music. The older I've gotten the more I realized that my students are subjected to a curriculum that is ... divine by my interpretation and my sensibilities about music. I imagine that's pretty similar to an English Lit. for anybody else. You've got your own set of tastes and understanding of quality work, et cetera, that comes into play with which works you put in front of your students.

F: Do you find the longer you've been composing and conducting, would you say your answers to some of these questions might have been different 20 years ago, than they are now?

M: Certainly. I believe any conductor or composer worth his or her salt is evolving, growing.

F: So I just have a few more, just to, these are kind of just big over arching things that rap it up. First, one of the things that in particular that you love most about conducting your own music and what things do you find most challenging about conducting your own music?

M: Well I think what's the most fun about it is the fact that it's the culmination of all that work, inside you know, if you're fortunate to have a commission, but even if you don't, there was this ... spark of inspiration at the beginning that, I think a piece about this or about that would be interesting to explore and then you put in all that hard work and labor to make it come about. To have the great joy of being virtually an accessory between the audience and the performer of that moment is rarefied era. There aren't too many composers who are conducting their own works. And ... it's a blast.

F: I agree.

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M: It's hard for me to put it into words right now. It's a visceral, a physical response to the sheer exhilaration of the moment. Whether it's ... an exciting quick waltz or fan fairish music, or if it's quiet tender stuff. You've created this expression era. It's not that you aren't totally turning off your conductor's ear. I mean you're the one in charge of making it all happen. And so you're on the box as the conductor. But it feels fantastic also being the composer. What was the second part of that question? What was the second part?

F: The second part is do you find there are any particular challenges in conducting your own music?

M: Yeah I think I just got through it with that last comment. If my tempos are too far into the composer, in the moment, then I'm not on top of my game as the conductor. A little bit of a tight rope that you're walking right there.

F: Yeah. And so the last question is how do you feel being a composer and conductor influences and enhances both of those skills?

M: Say that one again? That got broken up a little bit.

F: Sorry about that. How do you feel your experience as a composer and conductor influences and enhances both of those skills?

M: I guess I see them as being beautifully in a symbiotic relationship with one another. That ... each informs the other. Each drives the other, helps the other. And that ... because ... I'm fortunate enough and you and the others who are doing this, to have had chances to write music and also be the conductor, that we have the ability to perhaps make something pretty special happen. Not only with our own music, but with the other works that we conduct. I mean this gets back to some other things that I talk about in the sessions I give. You know the Implication Realization Theory of Leonard Meyer?

F: Um, No, I've heard of it.

Yeah it's, it came out in the 50's he had a book called Emotion and Meaning and Music. I got exposed to it when I was in grad school and I wish I would have learned it in about sixth grade. It's an easy concept that's basically cause and effect. His theory is an aesthetic theory that allows someone to perhaps ... figure out which is the better piece of music, The Beethoven Ninth Symphony or Amazing Grace, for example. Both are known around the world, loved by people, which one's the better piece. I mean we could sit and talk about that for an hour. But what it boils down to is, then he gives a moment of implication as to what will happen next, is this is the way we get through life? And it either, what we think will happen next is either realized or it's not. As a composer, you play with this all the time. For conductor's who don't compose, I think it's less obvious to them until it's pointed it out. And then they realize, "Well of course." It's another angle to think about what's going on in a piece of music. As you're approaching a cadence and we hear some cadencial dissonance come into play here, it comes back to that asking why is that

262 happening, as opposed to just what is happening here? And because these dissonances are going on, what's the implications of what will happen next, do we yearn for a resolution of it? It's either given to us or it's extended with more dissonance, et cetera. You can offer up, simple, the harmonic example I give which seems to work pretty well, is I'll play a five, seven chord and say, "What's the next chord?" And they all say "The tonic" And then I say "What do you call this one?" And I'll go to a six chord. Playing a six chord and they say "Well that's the deceptive cadence." And I say, "Well that's it exactly," we were deceived. We thought we were gonna go to the tonic and we didn't. And because we went to this chord, then it ends with four chords back into a five chord and then you can either go to finally to the one chord or you can go to the six chord again, you can just sort of mess with their heads for a while when you're demonstrating this. And say, "Now do you sense that harmonic path that we're on right now?" And it's all about ... what's happening in the moment to applying what will happen next. And it's the same thing with melodic writing, with scale steps for larger intervals, in melodies, repeated rhythms, establishing extra cadence, that are either ... fulfilled or they're not. So there's that aspect ... What we deal with when we're creating our music. I enter in that game all the time. I don't think we stop and say, "Well, I'm using Implication Realization Theory here," it's not like that. It's just that's the way our sensitivities are elevated when we're trying to carve this thing out into the future. And if the conductor's can also understand that, okay that was part of this writing process, that's really at the base of this piece of music, then they're like engaged with the score on a different level, a deeper level. The more swiftest level of just understanding the black on the page, now they're getting into the white on the page. It's fascinating stuff. The older I get the more I'm just blown away by it and also thinking I'll probably not write another piece of music again because I'm just getting scared of it.

F: Well thank you very much, for your time.

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Zachary Friedland Interview with Gene Pollart June 18th, 2018

Friedland: So, before we begin I just need to let you know that this is completely voluntary, you can stop this interview at any time and I just want to make sure that I have your permission to quote you should I choose to use anything you say? Pollart: Yeah, I read that little thing you sent me. F: Awesome, so first question, do you consider yourself more composer/conductor or conductor/composer? P: Well, first of all I don’t consider myself a composer, more of an arranger. But first a conductor, so a conductor/arranger. F: So can you just describe your arranging experience a little bit, and I know you have done some original composition as well. P: Yeah, well they weren’t all that good, I had fun with it. What was the question again? F: Just describe your arranging experience a little bit. P: Well, I’ve done a lot of arranging for marching, and from when I was in concert band. And when I was in American Band. And I lot of it was for the singer, there were a couple of them. Lee Brown was the one who did it mostly, but there were a few of them before that. Diane, I can’t think of her last name did it. So I did those, um, I also did a lot of arranging for marching band. With marching band, a lot of the stock arrangements you buy were pretty dismal, so if you wanted to have a decent arrangement you would do it yourself. And I had taken a marching band arranging course at the University of Iowa. What a great course, and the guy was really good. And he taught be everything. Cause at that point I tried to do it and some of them came out of okay and some of them not so good. But after I took that class, he had a formula that worked just great. And that’s what I did, and then I started doing arrangements for percussion ensemble. I have some of those. F: I’ve played them. P: Have you? Oh yeah, you probably have. And then since I was doing the wind ensemble, I started doing some for wind ensemble. When I heard a piece that I thought would work well with wind ensemble and I got a score, for whatever it was scored for – could have been a piano score, could have been an orchestral score, didn’t make any difference what it was, when I got involved with that. Cause I could have my own pieces, or essentially my own pieces, and this has been more recent, about the past twenty years. And I did the marching band or about twenty years, but I don’t do marching band stuff anymore. And I did one with orchestra for the spring concert this past year, it was a fanfare. I did it for orchestra with lots of winds. It worked out pretty well. So that’s what I do. F: So when you are at a concert, do you find yourself listening more for the compositional aspects of the piece, or evaluating the performance of the group?

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P: Actually I do both. I listen to the overall effect of the piece, as far as the performance is concerned, but sometimes the piece may intrigue me, so the point where if I is written for wind ensemble or if it might work for the wind ensemble, so actually I do both. When I go to a concert, I listen to the performance because a performance without any emotion is a waste of my time. There has to be something there that does something to me emotionally or spiritually, so I do listen for that. But I also listen for the context of the music, what’s going on with the music. F: Um, and if you are listening to a performance of one of your own arrangements, does your answer to that change at all? Are you doing more of a self-evaluation or are you… P: Well, by the time we get to the performance, I’m not. But during the rehearsals to get to the performance, I am evaluating the arrangement itself. Whether it’s working, whether it’s not working, if there is anything I have to do with it, or is it gonna make sense when we’re all done. But when I perform it, I am only interested in the performance aspect of it, the rest of it is all done. I can’t change that. F: Um, and when you are rehearsing your own arrangements, do you do it any differently than you rehearse other music? P: I try not to. But sometimes I tend to do that because I am self-conscious about the piece that I wrote, so I tend not to spend as much time on it as I probably should. Because it’s a piece that I wrote, and the organization that is playing it, whatever that may be, may think I am doing it for my own purposes, which I’m not. But I don’t want them to think that so I may not spend as much time on it. The end result is usually fine, but I do know that I will short change myself. And I’ll record myself, so when I go back and listen to the recording of a piece that I have arranged, I will go back and listen to what needs to be fixed, that I should have taken the time to fix. But I am a conductor first and foremost. And the arranging aspect of that comes second. I love doing it, but it’s just still secondary. F: So going along those lines, when I had my senior composition recital here I had three band pieces, and I put the group together and conducted them. And after one of the rehearsals, Brian was playing French horn in the ensemble so I asked him if he had any advice about how the rehearsal went, and he said “Try to think more like the conductor than the composer.” So this is kind of a multipart question, first what do you think he meant, and second, is there a time to think like the composer, or in your case the arranger and a time to think like the conductor? And how are those thoughts different in your mind? P: I think I know what he was trying to say, he was trying to say, try to think about what the conductor has to do with your piece, interpret it and try to make sense out of what is going on, you when you write the piece, you have to write the piece in terms of, how is this gonna be able to be played, and to guarantee a successful performance, and that’s up to the conductor. So I think that is what he is trying to say there. For example if you are writing for a middle school ensemble and you are writing for that group, you have to understand what the parameters of the performance can be. So that means things like you can’t write too high for the trumpets, you have to be careful with some of the tones for the clarinets crossing the bridge too much because they don’t know how to do that very well. You can’t write for bass trombone cause you don’t

265 have one, so you constantly have to think about that aspect. Or if you’re writing for an ensemble that is more of an advanced ensemble, like the wind ensemble, or like when I was doing arrangements for American Band, I didn’t have to worry about that cause they could play almost anything I wrote. So I could be as creative as I wanted to be and write whatever I wanted to as long as it made sense. So then I didn’t think about it as much as what the conductor had to do with it, but rather if it was making sense and does it have any value in terms of making it a creative endeavor. So I look at it two different ways. F: Um, you mentioned playability and such, when you are arranging, does your experience as a conductor play in to things. Such as has it ever lead you to make changes in terms of metrical groupings of meters, or just overall balance, technical prowess. Has your conducting experience informed the choices you make when you arrange? P: Um, oh yeah, of course, yeah. Because you have to, and some composers don’t understand this. You are trying to blend everything together, and balance everything as your write your music, so you want to make sure that happens. Whether you’re composing or whether you are arranging it doesn’t make any difference. So you try to write the piece, or arrange the piece, so you are making the things come out that you want to have come out, project, and the things that don’t need to, you can put those in the background. So you need to do those kinds of things. And there are a lot of pieces that don’t do that, so you need to fix them. And you have to fix them by doing a lot of things. You can fix them by having more players on a part, or adding players on a part, write a part for somebody else that is gonna enhance that part, or play it with fewer players if you don’t need that part. So there are a lot of things you can do to change that if its something the composer or arranger hasn’t done. Maybe they assume you are gonna do it anyway. I don’t know. I try to do that because I am writing it for an ensemble that I know. I’m not writing it to get it published and try to get it played somewhere else, I’m doing it for my own purposes. F: Along those lines, sometimes you talk about sometimes things that conductors have to do, to make things work in their ensemble. So where do you believe the composers job ends and the conductor’s job begins? P: Well, the composer’s job ends when he or she completes the pieces of music and finishes what they believe will be a creative endeavor. That’s the point where the conductor starts. Because the conductor has to rely on his or her broad, hopefully, background to be able to piece together everything whether it’s a Baroque piece or a Classical piece, whatever it happens to be, to understand the composer’s intent and then at the same time create a piece that becomes the conductor’s. So the end result of a piece that a conductor is conducting is no matter whether its an arrangement or if it’s a composer writing an original composition it should say, if you are playing a Bach piece it should say Bach/whoever the conductor is because you’re creating your interpretation. And when you create that interpretation you have to abide by the composers intent, and not go beyond that. But when the composer is done and the conductor takes over, he or she gets the interpretation of the piece of music. And each conductor can interpret a piece completely differently. You know how I do Russian Christmas music for instance. F: You go in 2.

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P: I don’t do it the same way in that six part. I conduct it in two, instead of in six cause I want it to move along. I’m not sure that Alfred Reed intended it that way, but that’s the way I feel, so it works. If it didn’t work that would be another thing. F: So you said that you started doing this arranging and then doing a bit of composing later. Has your experience arranging, in time, influenced your idea on the role of the conductor? P: To a certain extent yes, yeah. Because as you begin to make arrangements, you begin to understand more combinations of instruments, and your also begin to understand how you write to make the combinations and what you can do, if you have something that needs to come out, where do you put this melodic line? Do you put it in the trumpets, or the clarinets? Or do I want the French horn where do I put that, so yeah. Cause you pay attention to that much more so than if you haven’t done those kinds of things. F: And you mainly conduct your own arrangements, but how often do you have other’s conduct your arrangements? P: Oh it’s happened, yeah. F: I know Ronnie conducted a bunch of yours. P: Oh yeah, for sure. Some people in American Band, I’m not so sure Brian ever did it, but there were some other people that did it. And in some of the other ensembles I’ve had I had other people conducting my pieces, yeah. F: And has someone else conducting one of your pieces ever changed your interpretation of it? P: Of course, yeah. You know, you’re are continually learning, when you hear your piece conducted by someone else, you may hear someone that you really like, you might want to in cooperate it into the next arrangement, that really worked great, next time I make an arrangement I want to use that, put that into effect. F: Has another composer every told you specifically that what you did with one of their pieces gave them a fresh take on it? P; Yeah, Karl Husa. F: Okay. P: I can’t think of anything else off the top of my head right now. Roger Cichy. Yeah, there have been people that have said I like your interpretation of the music, you really made the out. F: And when you are the one conducting your own piece, do you ever find it possible to remove yourself, to the point where you could conduct it as if it where someone elses? P: I think anyone that conducts their own piece tries to do that, but it’s very difficult to do because, you’re the one that wrote it. And even though, if it’s an arrangement and someone else wrote it because it’s still you, as I said minute ago, it’s the composer/you, And it’s really difficult

267 to get around the fact that this is your piece and you want it to sound exactly how you wrote it. So it’s difficult not to be involved in that aspect with it, yeah. F: Let’s talk about programming. Does all your arranging influence the way you program at all? P: I would say it’s the other way around, my programming influences what I write. F: Yeah. P: Because I am very concerned about programming, and for a University ensemble like I have here, you have to do two things. Your program needs to be educational for your students but at the same time it’s got to have some for the audience. So you have to mix and match both of those kinds of things. So I may find a piece that I want to arrange that might be more of an entertainment piece. Or I might find one that I think will be a much more education piece. And maybe one that’s both, it may be a piece that is educational but the end result is that audience will enjoy it. But there are some of those where that is not gonna happen. You perform it because your students need to know about how music like that is put together. And how you conduct it and how you play it. And if the audience like’s it, fine. But if not, there is nothing you can do about that. On the other hand, you need to have some pieces that the audience is gonna recognize or at least be entertained by to a certain extent. Cause you gotta build your audience. If you just played pieces that the audience didn’t like you’d never have an audience. So you have to be careful how you program. So when I do program I tend to program with two things in mind, educational value, entertainment to the audience, so they return. F: Um, obviously next, after you program, next comes score study. When you look at someone else’s piece for the first time, do you start evaluating the composition right away or do you start thinking, is this gonna be a good fit for my group? P: Well, I can’t tell if it’s gonna be a good fit for my group until I’ve studied it, or until I have listened to a recording. Sometimes I do that, but often times I don’t listen to a recording, because the problem is sometimes when you listen to a recording, that gets ingrained in you and it becomes your interpretation when it’s not, it’s someone elses interpretation. So I try not to listen to recordings, or at least not very many of them. So for me to see how it’s gonna work with my ensemble, I have to study the score. I have to sit down and do a pretty intense study of the score. First, just do an overall glancing through it, just looking at where everything goes. Key changes, meter changes, things like that to see if this is gonna be a playable piece for the group that I happen to be conducting at the time. And then you go back and you start to see other things to see if this piece is worth playing. And there are two things you have to think about. First, is it playable? Yeah, okay. And then is it worth playing. And some pieces are not worth playing. My philosophy is pretty simple, if it doesn’t have a part where it goes beyond the medlodic line, than it’s not worth playing. It needs to have a development of some sort, it can be a theme and variations, it can be whatever. But if it’s just the reiteration of the melodic line over and over again or if it’s just ABA, well there is no development then. Its just two themes really and you just repeat the first theme at the end of the piece. The context of that piece to me has no value to it. And there are a lot of composers knocking all the way to the bank writing those kinds of the pieces. And that can happen, and I don’t blame them for doing that, cause they are making a lot

268 of money doing that but if it doesn’t do something some kind of development of some sort or another, than the piece isn’t worth doing. F: Um, and do you have to study your own scores? When you do an arrangement do you have to study the score after? P; Absolutely. Yes, yes. Because when you’re writing it you’re not thinking about conducting it. You’re thinking about the piece as a whole and what I am doing at the beginning, and now how I am gonna take that and make a development of some sort out of it, maybe a theme and variations, or whatever I decide I want to do with it, and then what I am gonna do at the end. So that’s what I do when I am composing which I don’t do that much of but it’s the same thing when you’re doing an arrangement, you’re taking a piece, and you have some leeway when you’re making arrangements, because you can veer off what the composer wrote and put your own two cents worth in there, you can, but don’t veer off very much or else you are losing the intent of the composer, but then when you conduct it you gotta go back and study the score so you can say, okay, I know what’s happening in this which helps because I composed it or arranged it, but it’s not gonna be the end result. F: So do you prepare your own scores any differently than you prepare anyone else’s or is it pretty much the same? P: Prepare my score for what? F: Like if you are gonna conduct your own piece. P: You mean like for condcuitng? F: Yeah. Do you study your own score’s any differently? P: No, no. I study them the same as if I am conducting a piece that I never played before. F: Um, have you ever given anyone a composition lesson? P: Not composition, I’ve given an arranging lesson. F: Okay, so when giving someone a lesson in arranging how has all your experience as a conductor affected the way your critiqued their piece? P: Um, to teach it to someone else? To teach the arranging to someone else? F: Well, if someone brought you a piece and said I would like your thoughts on this, how would your experience as a conductor effect the way you give them feedback? P: Oh, well it’s going to affect them. Because if it’s a piece I already know, that’s good. If it’s a piece I don’t know than I am going to have to spend some time studying it. But then you are looking at the piece in your mind. So what you’re saying to this person is I can give you some ideas, some thoughts on what you might want to do in some of these places. So I will go through the piece, and Ill say, okay, percussion parts, cause you’re a percussionist. So I’ll say, here’s a percussion part, take a look at this and see what’s going on with this percussion part. Does it really fit what’s going on with the piece or do you want to change it? Um, because sometimes

269 they don’t fit. There are some arranges, and even some composers, but mostly arrangers that have these stock things that they do with percussion. But when it all comes out in the wash, it doesn’t really quite work. And then you look at combinations of instruments. What are the combinations of instruments? Now obviously some are obvious. Horns and saxes, those are obvious combinations. The thing about horns and trumpets, that you have to look at and say, okay, it can work, but it also cannot work in some cases. How about horns with clarinets? That can work or sometimes it cannot work. Trumpets and clarinets, same thing. If you have to look at think, is this gonna work? Because if it’s not gonna work, what can you do to fix it and make it work. That’s what the conductor is all about, is how do you make that work. And that’s why sometimes you will hear a composition and maybe you’ve heard it before, but now you’ll hear it again and you like one and you don’t like the other one. And it’s because you didn’t do those kinds of things, you didn’t take the time to make the balance and blend work right in terms of what the piece is all about. And that’s a process that a conductor has to learn how to do, that doesn’t come automatically. It doesn’t come when you’re arranging or composing either, which you know. But as a conductor, it’s difficult, that’s one of the more difficult things to do. I’m going out on a limb here, but it’s more difficult with wind groups, wind ensembles, than it is with orchestras. The reason for that is because the orchestra is all strings. Strings all sound the same whether it’s a string bass, a cello, a viola, or a violin. They all have the same way they produce the sound, it’s exactly the same. And that’s the basic makeup of the orchestra. So what do you use the winds and percussion for? They supplement that. Sometimes they have solos sometimes they play by themselves, but most of the time what they’re doing is supplementing what the strings are doing. In a wind ensemble you don’t have that. You’ve got this conglomeration of instruments which you have some make work together. Which is really difficult to do. You’ve really got to use your ears and try to make all these things fit together, blend wise and balance wise, and those are not the same thing and make it come out the way it should come out. Because if you hear a piece that you like and then you hear the same piece and you don’t like it, the problem is the balance and the blend. How you constructed the piece in your mind to create your own interpretation of it. F: And having been conducting wind band for so long, and just the volume of scores you have seen, has that help you figure out which of these combinations work and which don’t? P: Oh yeah, you figure it out. One of the first things I look for when I study a score is what kind of combinations of instruments does this composer use? I want to know what those are. And if they are kind of distant from each other than I am gonna mark those as a red flag, and think, okay will this work? What am I gonna have to do to make this work. F: So kind of this last section just kinda wraps everything up here. Are there particular things that you love about getting to arrange a piece and conduct it yourself? P: Oh of course, yeah. It’s a lot of fun playing your own piece. As you probably know because you compose. I don’t do much composing but I do some arranging. Quite a bit of arranging. And it’s a lot of fun to hear your own piece come back at you, to hear it being played, especially if it comes out well. Not all of them do. Some of them do. But if you produce a piece that really comes out the way you expected it to come out, it’s the greatest feeling in the world. As I say,

270 musicians and artists have a whole different way of creating good feelings because scientists, mathematicians, they don’t get that, but we do. Because we get the emotional part of hearing a piece performed, the emotional part of hearing your piece performed, its even more emotional. So there is an particularly intimate relationship you have with the piece. F: And are their specific challenges you find in conducting your own pieces? P: Um, yeah, there are. Because sometimes you will write, and I tend to do this sometimes, Ill try to branch out and do something different, so when you get to those points that you’ve never done before and now you’re exposing yourself to this new writing that you’ve done, you have to be careful of that because you are creating something that you’ve never created before, and so sometimes it works great, and so you store it in my memory banks and next time you can use that same combination of instruments, so yeah, you have to pay attention. F: And so, um, how do you feel you’re experience arranging and a little bit of composing has enhanced your conducting? P: It has because I understand the process better. Studying scores as a conductor you look at it one way, and what you’re trying to do is put it in its historic context. And then you are trying to put it into the emotional and melodic and harmonic context, and that is what you are trying to do as a conductor and you’re trying to build you’re interpretation off of that. But if you’ve written a piece, or you’ve arranged a piece, you can look at it totally differently because you already know what’s inside of it. Inside and out. So you do it a little differently than if you are doing a piece you’ve never looked at before. And you’re trying to study the score and you’re studying it and trying to put all these pieces together. And then singing through it or playing through it on the piano, whatever you do, I do both. What am I gonna do hear, how am I gonna create my emotional aspect of it, my interpretation. Whereas if I have already written it, I know what’s gonna happen to an extent. Although when I get up and start conducting that can change. But you already have that aspect because you know where the piece is going. Where it’s coming from and where it’s going. F: And how do you feel your experience as a conductor enhance your ability to pick up the arranging? P: Oh it does, yeah. Cause when you look at scores you learn a lot. Cause you study that score, and then you play that score, rehearse that score, and you hear sounds that you may not have heard before. And so as your looking at the score you remember, that sound is something that I want to use when I arrange. So there are things that you might jot down, and I do, I will go back to my office and I will jot some things down that I heard in that, I will look at the score and try to remember where that was in the score and think, that really sounded cool. This is a great sound that I’ve never tried before, do it. So in my next arrangement I will try to incorporate some stuff in that I have never done before. So sure it’s going to influence me, yeah it does. F: So would you say more than anything it’s the score study that helps? P: Oh yeah, score study is really important. If you don’t know the score, than one, you can’t conduct. And two, you shouldn’t be up there conducting anyway if you don’t know the score.

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But if you don’t know the score, than ow can you interpret the score? And even if it’s your own piece. If you haven’t studied your own piece enough to get up in front of the group and be able to make some comments and talk about it and know what you want to it, you put yourself in a bad position. F: Alright, thank you very much.

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Zachary Friedland Interview with Onsby Rose July 2nd, 2018

Friedland: Um, so as you know, this is completely voluntary. You can stop the interview at any time. Um, and it's want to make sure I have permission to use your name in the document if I choose to quote you directly.

Rose: Absolutely.

F: All right. Awesome. So first question is just kind of, do you consider yourself more composer/conductor or conductor/composer? R: It's funny because we just about that at a private school currently here in Houston visiting director. It's a, it depends on the situation. I guess I try to put myself to the appropriate shoes on. I still have a hard time picturing myself as a composer. I'm just because for so many years I have been a teacher or a conductor. Um, however I think I kind of crossed a little bit of a barrier the other night with Wheaton specifically just because I was there in absolutely no conducting capacity there strictly as they get closer. So it, it's, the more I write, the easier it's becoming to see myself a composer role. Uh, you know, but I still, I don't know, I think the two for me are almost inseparable because we're not writing and we may, may have questions about later that we can get defensive, but when I'm writing I'm thinking about the conductor and what they're going to be able to do in order to execute the music, you know. So it gives you a black and white answer on that. I'd probably still think of myself more as a conductor, but it's a close. It's a close race. F: Yeah. Because you just recently started composing, but you've been arranging for a while, right? Yeah, R: I was in high school 25 years ago. F; Okay. Um, and you started conducting around college or. R: Yeah, it was nice. I was drum major in high school. Well, you know, the basic and then I'm in college. That's an ethical undergraduate stuff. And um, it wasn't until I was really until I was in the Marine Corps that I really got to get in front of a band regular. Um, and then it was still very utilitarian conducting. It wasn't a, it wasn't expressive whatsoever, so it really doesn't involve my master's degree just four years ago that I started really getting into the expressive side of conducting. F: Cool. Um, so when you are at a concert, um, do you find yourself in your, you and you're listening to a performance, do you find yourself listening more to the compositional aspects of the music or evaluating the performance of the group? R: Like as of today? I find myself doing both, but even I think waiting on the side now, the compositional aspects just because I'm in that point in my composing that I'm still, I'm really trying to expand my toolbox. I'm not that I'm not as a band director, but because that's kind of

273 been. I've done a lot of it lately. I find myself wondering, okay, how did they get that sound or I want to use that. How does that work? A straight up, okay, let's go back at score so that I can find out how that composer did that. Um, now I do still find myself sometimes thinking, okay, if I were the conductor, what would I do to make this better or happier? Um, up until about a year ago that strictly what I did, I didn't think about it compositionally whatsoever. Um, but now that I've gotten deeper into composing, I do, I absolutely fund myself probably weight heavier on the side of how does this work? What, what's making this plot tip? F: Um, and you said a little earlier that, uh, when you were in Wheaton the other night for the premier of your symphony, that's was kind of the first time that you were there, like strictly in a composer role. Um, so when you're, when, when you apply that question, I asked you to your own music, does that change at all or you, do you find yourself? R: Yeah, it absolutely does because I'm not, I'm not approaching. When he does it, it's, you know, I'm not there in the role up of how to rehearse the band. So to say, I'm the role of how to get the point of the music, the program, the emotion, whatever it might be, of the music across to the visions the conductor can make sure everything lines up and everything, you know, as far as technical aspect of the music is right. I, I totally think, you know, as the composer that I'm there to try to or that's the way I was the other one. Anyway. I, my input was more so on. This is what I'm trying to relate through this music now. There on occasion, you know, I would say, Hey, can you bring that one part out there because that's going to create more potential aspect or whatever it might be that I'm going for. But the vast majority of my comments were more related to um, you know, the overarching idea of the music. F: And has that also changed because this was the first time you had heard the entire symphony would or has that been different? Or would that be different if you were to, you know, go be a guest with a high school group who was playing the first know? Just the first movement or something. I'm like, you, the first time is more of that self evaluation kind of aspect or you know, the more times you've listened to a piece, has that changed for you at all? R: Uh, yeah. I mean a little bit maybe. Um, I still, uh, you know, again, it depends on the capacity on their and center and um, there was a baton in my hand then I'm, I pretty much stick to the role up of what I described for, you know, for example, I wrote a piece for a high school group in Ohio back last year, but I was also the conductor. I was the clinician for the group. So then I've got to ride both horses. I've got to not get the emotional parts of the music to them, but I've also got the make, you know, teach some pedagogy as well. Yeah. And that's hard for me. I think that's hard for any, uh, any conductor, you know, I've seen Frank Ticheli on the podium with a band and it's difficult to ride both of those horses at the same time. And so, um, yeah, if I'm just the guy holding the score and not on the podium then unless, you know, if something happens more than once and it's not corrected and I think it's going to affect the music negatively, then I'll say something, but I try not to, you know, I try not to get the conductor way. I'll let him do the conductor thing and I'll do the composer things just in the same way as a composer that we don't want, you know, a conductor tell us what we should. Right. I mean, unless it's obviously something ridiculous that an instrument or what. Yeah. You know, don't,

274 don't drastically change my music. It's something that's attainable by the employer. Yeah, kind of. I try to get them that respect as well. So the hard part's doing both. F: Um, so let's dive into this idea of writing both horses and uh, we'll kind of start with the score study part. Do you study your own scores differently than other scores? R: Uh, I try not to. It's finding myself struggling with that. Um, for example, when I took what I studied at score of someone else, I have a very methodical way that I approach it. Um, you know, I flipped through it, I get an overall view and then I started going to a party at the time until that I can put books together and throw and so forth. When I studied my music, my own music, I've kind of already done that because I wrote it. Yeah. Um, but what I have found is that I can go back and I can find things in my own music that I wrote that I didn't realize with the times will, with this fan for that I wrote for this clinic in northern Ohio and I listened to my opponents of it with them. And then I listened. Another performance that happened later on with a colleague of mine with his own high school band. He brought out music that I did and it's like, whoa. I didn't realize that that was there. That's awesome. I wrote that. I wrote that, but I know I didn't, I never emphasized that part. F: One of the questions I was going to ask you later, has your, has another conductor ever given you a new interpretation of one of your pieces? R: This past week, uh, you know, the beginning of the third booklet, I'm actually probably going to go back and revise the tempo because bruce did it as much slower than I wrote and I really like it. Um, I had just given it that chance and he slowed it down a bit. I think advertently he wasn't even purposefully doing it and I was like, Whoa, that's really cool. I really liked it. Then the transition and the progression works perfect by speeding it back up. So yeah. Oh absolutely. I think that, uh, just like whenever we write a paper or something like that and you try to proofread your own work, it's because you're so close to it. Whereas then when somebody else looks at it, they're going to see things and notice things that you won't because they have not been so deep in the weeds with it, you know what I mean? So yeah. And I think that is a bad thing. Now I know there's, there's composers out there to the, uh, you know, they, they get irritated if one tries to interpret something differently than what they've exact on the page and some of that's warranted maybe in certain occasions, but I think it's good to be open to different interpretations and then making the book much of that or that's not, you know, whatever. F: So in the, in the years I've been doing this and we experienced this with, when you did mercury with the, a symphonic band, I realized there are two things that will, for a first performance of the piece, I can pretty much count on two things to change a little bit. Balance and tempo just insists. You don't remember. We ended up taking it a little faster and you know, just work flow better that way. R: No, that's the cool thing. What we do though is that it is individual interpretation. I, I love that. Yeah. Now there's, you know, you can take it too far. You know, I've seen conductors interpret stuff and it's like, Whoa, dude, that's not at all. What's on the page? I try not to do that both on either side is a conductor or composer, but especially with a new piece like when you're premiering something, it's like anything, you know, so when you get it in front of real people,

275 then it's like, you know what, that slower tempo really does work better like that. Let's keep that, you know. F: Do, uh, do you find that you rehearse your own music differently too?

R: A little bit and I think it comes again from that. Trying to, uh, the ride those horses at the same time with my own music, I don't worry about as much and this, this kind of sounds weird, but I don't struggle so much with what's exactly on the page because it's mine and if I make a change that's okay because I wrote. Whereas if I'm playing someone else's music, especially if it's a well established piece that has been performed numerous toe, then I struggled to try to get as close as I can to, to what the AP says. And there's always going to be an interpreter of things that you have to do, but you know, for example, if, if, uh, if I play a piece by Frank Kelly and he's got it marked at quarter note equals 132, okay, I might go 138, I might go 126, but I'm going to try to not stray too much further than that. Just pause. Okay? This piece is played 18 dozen times and this obviously is the number that he wanted it. He would have revised it. So probably still do that. Now. The only time that I don't do that with others music, if it just doesn't work, um, you know, because there are variances. I mean, if you play in a hall that's really five, that can create some problems with tempo, um, it, you know, you're, you're, you're the pedagogical knowledge of the instrumentalist and the ensemble. Can you adjust some for that? However, with that being said, if you have to adjust drastically than maybe that's a consideration, you should think of whether you should perform that piece or not. Um, because you don't want to totally change the composers intent, whereas with my own music, I can make that personal judgment as to how much I can go one way or the other without changing my intended outcome and I'm not worried about anybody else, but because I'm the one making the decision and I've got a couple of weeks, you know, I've done that a couple of times where I've played with one band, they can play this, but the other band can't quite play it at that speed or they can't quite play it at that volume with good balance and unquality the riot just overall because of that. And you did that with other people's music as well. But the main, I find myself not struggling with that as much with my own music just because it's mine. Um, so, so yeah, at the other aspect of rehearsing my music differently is I, I know exactly what I was thinking. I know the pictures when I write music, I have a very defined, almost a movie in my head. Um, and I know what I was thinking then I know the emotions I was trying to get across what I'm trying to play to the audience and I find myself spending more on that than I had pedagogical aspect of the music, the tech aspect. Um, and I, and again, I have to remind myself that that's a balancing act as if I'm conducting island. You have to do both, but I find myself waiting more on the expressive interpretive side just because I've got that. F: I also got the movie playing in my head with, with mercury. Like those last 10 bars. I knew exactly how I wanted that piece to end. The ending was written first and um. Yeah. And so sometimes it's that you have the movie in your head to just, to take a little while to figure out, you know, the right way to. Yeah. Yup. Um, on that note, do you feel that, um, when you, when you make these decisions, when you're writing, you know, um, how has your experience as a conductor affected the way you choose metrical groupings and think about technical prowess and range?

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R: That's a really, really good questions. Um, I absolutely think about every note as I'm choosing my meters as first, think about what I'm trying to get across in the music, of course. Um, but second differently and almost as important. I mean, when I was writing that the, uh, the second and third movement at the symphony, both of those have some pretty advanced metrical changes in it between four, four, two, five, four, nine, eight, seven, eight. A groupings group three Plus Two plus three plus two. Plus. It was wondering what some of those words. Yeah. Almost every measure goes into a different times than not. I will. When I wrote that, those sections of the movement, I was looking for an off cantor unwieldy. Uh, I didn't want it to feel comfortable. But then I also, what I did, maybe this is a better way to describe it, when I wrote it, I put the, the conductor onto the aside and I wrote it and I got it to sound like I wanted to say. Then I went back and I woke up the conductor Onsby and conducted through and I made some change as doctor. I was like, oh, that's, you know, not that it wasn't impossible to conduct, but it was such relation where it's like, okay, I can do it this way and it's gonna make it not only easier for the conductor but more clear to the musicians. So I read some things and put some things that, you know, put some accents in places that would help keep everything together. So I think it's invaluable. I think having at least a working knowledge of conducting course, I've been conducting major hope. I had more than just a working knowledge, but I'm having a working knowledge of conducting for Boser I think is invaluable because then you don't put your conductor in a situation where, uh, you know, he just can't hear. She can't do what you need them to do to hold the group together. F: And, and I know you did a use, brought up the term you'd, you'd said conductor Onsby. And so this is kind of goes to where this whole thing stems from. Um, when I did my senior recital in undergraduate school, the second half, I had three or four band pieces and I conducted through them. I put the group together and I conducted through them and uh, one of my professors, one of the band directors at Uri brand courtenay was playing Horn in the ensemble and after rehearsal I went up to him, I just said how you think it went. And he said, try to think more like the conductor, then the composer. Um, so my question to you is one, you know, what do you think he probably meant, if you could take a guess and then in your opinion, is there a time to think like the conductor and think like the composer and how are those thoughts different in your mind? R: Yeah, I understand what he meant, what he meant anyway. And from, from what I gathered while you're on the, I think that I probably think about in the way that he was talking about in that looked like the description on mentioning before when I was writing, I had to let the conductor go because that was getting in my way of being a poser. David Maslanka actually told me one time, cause, you know, a lot of people had a lot of content as far as the difficulty of some of his music. And he said, well, I write what I feel and what the music asks me for, and it's their job to figure out how to play it. Um, and I kinda think in somewhat of the play between composer conductor, although being inductor and doing that daily, it's almost inseparable. But what I, what I found myself that need to do is, okay, I'm going to write this and I'm not going to worry about the conducting aspect of it. You know, if John Mackey were conductor, he may have never written red line and go because that thing is a beast here.

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F: Yeah. R: Um, so I've got to think about it that way. Okay, I've got to not worry about the conductor part of it and then when I go back and like many of us that are conductors with a of music, we find tricks to get us through certain. I mean there's certain times when you'll have a five, four bar for example, and this is just a wild off the wall, but you have the five four bar and it just makes sense to conduct it with a three, three slash four plus two, four, one, two, three, four because the music feels that way. The students are the musicians in front of state of bit together better than, um, you know, where somebody writes a Jim and has written a couple of things where it's in a very slow for four. And to me it makes more sense to up the ace but to him absolutely not because he didn't feel that whenever he. Right. So yeah, I think it's, it's, it's good to separate the two. As a composer, I think it's important for me to write what I want to run it and let the music be, would it be. And then I take the conductor part of me back and evaluate and think, okay, how can I make this functional for the conductor? F: Cool. Um, and along that note, where does the composer's job and, and the conductor's job begin kind of sister. We're getting to the big philosophical one. R: Yeah. Oh Man. You know, I think it depends on the closer to a certain extent. You know, certain composers have certain sayings like David looked like it was classic for his tempos. Brights. One 60, he wants one 60, one 61 and he doesn't want 1:59. He wants 60 on and it doesn't matter what hall you're pulling in, what musicians? He wrote one 68. That's where he wants the music. Um, I'm not quite that hard nose. What's this? Um, I, I liked the interpreted aspect of music. I love now having heard enough performances of a couple of my pieces by different ensembles. It's really cool to me to go sit down and audience and hear it from a different group and here it played differently. So it was nice meeting you. So, um, so with that, um, that the real struggle, you know, where, where does the conductor in, whereas, you know, what's, what's the most important part of a, I don't know, to me, Oh man, you've got my back against the wall on this, the given answer. I mean, as a conductor, of course I want to say, well it's the conductor because, you know, the composer, 99 percent of the time is not there and the conductor has to make those decisions based on his knowledge of the composer. Um, in that case, I think as long as the conductor is reasonable and doesn't take so many liberties with the music that it becomes the different pieces. Um, in the grand scheme of things on the other, if you've got a residency and the, and the composers right there with you, then you have literally no business to do anything other than exactly what they want because they know their music far better than anyone else. They wrote it. So, uh, I, I struggle, I would struggle as conduct or working with, like if you and I were working together and I was taking something in a different tempo and you said, no man, it's got to be this way. I would struggle with telling, you know, because it's your music, you know, you know what you want here, you know, what you were trying to get across from it. Now, if you weren't there and I was doing something, then first offI might not realize it because it may not, it may not occur to me. Um, and then secondly, um, I, you know, it's my job as a conductor to try to be as close as I can do what you're trying to relate to the composer, but, you know, with me there, by myself, only do a certain amount of that I think, I think, I know I'm beating around the bush and I apologize. The, uh, I think the ultimate is

278 as a conductor, if I put my conductor hat on and completely leads the composer hat off, I think the ultimate thing is just to try to realistically, as much as possible with the given resources, meaning the quality of your positions on the hall that you're planning in all of the, all the outside influences to do as best you can to give a performance that stays as closely as it can to the written page. Now there are things that as composers, we can't possibly write into the music and that's where the interpretive aspect comes in. Um, I think spraying the way away from 10 grows strain way away from anything printed as far as a dynamic levels. Um, as far as change, massively changing links of notes or accent types. Uh, you know, I'm hard for us to agree with that as ended up. On the other hand, um, you know, you gotta do what you do to make the ensemble play. Well, I'm, as a composer, of course, especially nowadays with the way that most of us, right? We try to notate everything I possibly can into the music. That way there's not as many questions so that I'm like, when I'm playing a mackie piece, I mean John is very good about hiding it, exactly what he wants. Age. He's not good with the typical though. R: He typically, even when he's there in person, many times we'll ask you to take things slower or faster than what he's got written on a page. I think it just comes down with knowing his music that way and knowing him, which is great. With living composers, it's pretty easy. You can get to know them. Somebody that is no longer with us, you know, unless that you knew them or or you've read it tremendous about them. You might not know that much, so I don't know. Again, I think that's a balancing act of we want to. We want to be as true as we can with the composer, but we also as a conductor have to take some liberties because we're not machines. F: Do you ever find it on the podium? Do you ever find it hard to remove yourself from one of your pieces when you want to be conducted? Ron's be like, could you ever conduct one of your own pieces as if it was somebody else's? R: Yeah, I mean with my limited experience of having, haven't been in that visit, um, I've found that lately I'm pop. I removed myself from it deducted as written by Dick. Oh Sir. I just, I think that's just beyond. Maybe someday I'll be able to do that. I'm after, you know, something that I've written has been played enough and old enough that, that I'm far enough removed from it because of the, of my competition right now. Um, everything that I've written is, you know, a year, year and a half or less hold. Um, I, I find myself way too tied to the music to be able to remove myself now. I could, I could conduct it, but, but I'm not going to be able to remove myself from the competition aspect of it. F: I want to talk about programming a little bit. Does being a composer affect the way you program? R: No, I don't believe so. I, I pretty much programmed the way I always tried to program and it is something that I've written up and work within that metric then. That's great. The one thing that I have made sure that I've been aware of since I've been riding that I don't program you much of Myelin broths. Um, I have a huge pallet of music of mine right now anyway. Um, but, um, you know, I think it's important to, uh, to do a little bit but not, not too much, you know, F: And when you're, you know, if you have a stack of scores and you're looking through and you're trying to put together a concert for the university band or something, um, when you, when

279 you look at the scores the first time, what kind of sticks out at you first? Do you find that you're looking at, you're evaluating the composition first or do you think, okay, is this right? You immediately go to, how is this going to be a good fit for my group? R: Oh yeah, absolutely. Go straight to that. That's composer, conductor or teacher, whatever it is. I'm the reason I'm in this business because I love to teach people and I love music. I Ave to do that. Um, so the very first thing that concerns me is what is it that went out? Is My group willing to improve or the musicians take away something that's going to make them better at what they do or better just in life in general by the music that we play. Um, so yeah, I at that point I'm not thinking compositionally are in and also I'm thinking educational. F: And uh, when giving a composition lesson, um, how does, how it being a conductor affect the way you critique someone's piece? R: Well, because again, being both somewhat inseparable, even though I might look at me looking at a piece compositionally, um, I'm going to automatically without even trying to be thinking, thinking about how to conduct that. Not only just metrics and things, but thinking, well, okay, if I'm doing this at, where would I stretch, where would I not stretch all the interpretive aspects of the music that aren't necessarily written on the page. I'm, I'm absolutely thinking about that too. And being banked boats, I don't think that I could separate those two out when giving a lesson. I've never given a composition lesson, so I can't speak from that, that aspect of it. Um, but I have, uh, you know, given a number of conducting lessons, I'm, you know, I'm very much about know. I'm not thinking about the technical aspect of the music at that point. I'm thinking about the express of aspect. Um, so, but I think the two, again, they're, they're kind of inseparable.

F: Cool, we're going to get to end with a couple of fun ones. Are One of the things in particular that you really love about conducting your own music? R: The best thing for me, having done a couple of not thesis with a number of different groups, is that I can really give them a mental picture of what I'm trying to to because because I know that better than what else abuse the symphony. As an example, I'll use that are yours from the sea. I'm actually. Everything that I've written, a does farm, whenever I've conducted at my stomach with a group, of course we get into it and we start putting it together, but then when I really get to the point where I start trying to pull the music ethically, then I'm able to describe for the exactly what my mental image was when I was fighting that. Um, it, it, it, it's, um, I'm trying to think of the best. What I mean, you can read. I can go research a composer for months, read every written about them and read the program notes in the score. I could even talk to the composer of themselves about the piece. You're still never going to understand it as well as they do. So being able to be in that role on podium, having written the music, you take the middle man out of it. So I'm not a conductor that's relaying what some composer told me or what I've learned about them in books I'm relaying directly to the musicians as the composer. I just have to have the time. So I love that aspect of it. That's really cool because I think you can get closer to exactly what I'm looking for in the music

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F: Are there any challenges that you find in conducting your own music? R: Yeah, separating myself from that and being, being a band director when I need to be a band director and letting the composer side sit zip for bill. Um, you know, sometimes I find myself getting ahead of myself in, Oh, well let's work on this phrasing because that's really what I'm looking for, but we still haven't gotten to yet or you know, it's not, it's not lining up with percussion in the way that it's supposed to. Um, all of those are very important aspects of the music that the composer side of me wants to get to you getting the picture whereas of me needs to be working on the pedagogical aspect at that point. F: Um, and just Kinda the last question, uh, how do you feel that, you know, doing both has enhanced both skills? R: Well, I think it's eight. I think it's made both sides better. I don't think I would have ever been able to write anything had I not been a conductor. That is what has worked out for me. The best being conducted has forced me to study scores and I've studied those scores aren't oppositional aspects that I would not have learned had I not been doing that. Um, because I've never had a formal composition lesson in my entire life. So what I'd learned, and frankly Kelly told me this when I talked to him one time, I asked him, I was like, Hey, is there some books I can repeat it, you know, I'm not a composition major, but I want to learn about this. And the books are the scores on your shelves. Just go open them up, look out. That's where you're going to learn how to write. It's definitely kind of like what we talked about before when I hear something and it's like, Whoa, that's a really awesome sound. I wonder how he did that. I immediately go to pepper midwest music and by score the back and see it at that. And then I try to put that in my box, a tool. So yeah, and then on the other hand, being a composer conducting other people's music, now I'm much closer to what did he really wants from this music. It means more to me because now I've looked at it from the side of what I mean from my own music and I don't want anybody to trample on that. So I'm very careful to try not to trample on anyone else's music either. F: Alright. Thank you very much.

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Zachary Friedland Interview with Erika Svanoe July 19th 2018

Friedland: So I just want to let you know that this is completely voluntary. You're free to stop the interview at any time. Um, and I just want to make sure I have your permission to use your name and job title if I want to quote you directly in the document.

Svanoe: Yeah, absolutely. F: Awesome, so first question I'd like to start with is just, do you consider yourself more composer/conductor or conductor/composer? S: I’d say at this point anyway, It's definitely more conductor/composer for me, all of almost all of my formal dance training like my master's degree and were in condcuting and that's what I've been doing for a longer portion of my musical career. So I feel like I'm definitely more experience that has been doing that for longer than my case. So conductor/composer I would say. F: Cool, and when did you start composing and conducting? Did it happen around the same time? S: Yeah. Um, I remember. That's interesting. So if I keep going back further and further thinking back to like what I started doing, thing I would say I actually started composing for when I was maybe 12 or something. Um, and so, you know, writing things down that I would write on the piano and um, I think I still have some of those cases now. Um, but then, uh, that's the, I probably started that when I was really in high school, so it wasn't really that far away. They were both interested in pretty early on in my musical. I'd say probably I got serious about conducting during my undergraduate study. I was a music education major, so I had to take. Those are more advanced, nothing this. And then because I'm a music educator, you know, that was the tool I used most often in my, in my teaching. So did I answer that question? Cool, what was your question again? I think I covered it. F: Yes. When did you start doing, you know, when did you start composing? When you start conducting, if you happened around the same time and stuff? S: I guess I would follow up. So then composing, I was pretty curious about through my teaching, my in my advanced degree and then proposing I really got serious about probably about five years ago and so it's been a pretty recent, I've been doing it up to closing off and on, but never, never for anything other than like personal projects or projects for my own ensembles and marching down saying, you know, it's only in the last five years that I've started to write more seriously. F: Cool. So, well, you know, let's say, well you gave me a lot of good information there. Let's just, I'm just going to go off that for a second. Um, do you feel that, because, you know, you said you composed off and on and then you kind of got serious about it in the last five or six years. Do you feel like the more and more experienced you got as a conductor better informed you're ability to really kind of get serious about composing?

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S:Yeah, because when you, when you originally sent me some other questions with this, a little bit of thought and um, I guess my experience has been that by, I mean, I think I have some inclination towards composition, but because all of my training is in conducting, I think it's really the sports study from a thing that has informed light composition, the, you know, the composers that I have studied because I don't have formal compositional thing that I write like the composer by habit. I'm not trying to compare myself to the great composers, but I can follow that I lived, but I studied the most as a conductor. So I, I know that there's a lot of influence in my writing of, for example, because I studied it for a day, especially bad work. But um, so there's a lot of influence from a lot of time studying as a conductor. F: Yeah. And I think, uh, someone else I was interviewing told me that, you know, like I guess Frank Ticheli told him once you have the scores are your textbooks in the sense that. Cool. So, um, when you are at a concert, do you find yourself listening more to the compositional aspects of the music or evaluating the performance of the group? S: Well, they're not as an educator, you no one set of audience. This is an interesting thing too. I, uh, you know, if, if a group of it's basically a not growth performance and they um, if that makes sense. So if it's a, if it's an amateur level performance, it's difficult for me to get past listening for mistakes and, and I can't, I don't know if he found less, but it's difficult to turn my brain off and it's always, it's a, it's kind of hard to. It's present to enjoy concerts that are not like a professional level. Is that. Does that make sense? F: Yeah. Like I can't that part of my brain off, but specially if you're there as an adjudicator, you're there in that capacity. S: So I'm specifically listening for are those kinds of things. But I would say even as an audience member, I think it's difficult sometimes to just sit back, enjoy a concert if there are people playing out of tune, they're prepared to the best of their ability. Um, it's sometimes no. And sometimes if it's a piece, I know this is all terrible, but, you know, yeah, that experience like, well I think this conductor tempo isn't really working like artistic, you know, my brain sort of like pick things off. I think that's a little too slow or you know, those types of things sometimes to like really sit down and like just truly enjoy it. But, um, but with professional level groups like that, you know, but um, you know, then it's really a, then I can listen for those things when they're like, I can just ignore that because there's not this barrier of hearing the state, if that makes sense. I'm more able to sort of enjoy not only the experience but um, but also enjoy the competition in that case. F: And um, when it's a performance of one of your own compositions, does your answer to that question change it all? You know, [inaudible], I mean you talked about how um, you know, when you're there in a certain capacity then you can't turn that part of your brain off. Do you ever find that you're there in a composer's capacity? S: Yeah, that's interesting. I think it's somehow like, I like it, it's a similar experience for the title, so I'm a, you know, it was extra excited to be hearing my key emotionally like our super. So to know that somebody who's actually playing my music, so I'm already super emotionally invested and so if I do catch a mistake it's a little bit more devastating, but it's also in some ways it's like

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I'm just excited that my boss is being played and, and so it's a little bit different. I think it's maybe just a little bit more heightened emotionally, uh, for me. F: So continuing to go off this is kind of the inspiration for this as a dissertation topic was a, when I did my undergraduate recital, I'm due for the second half, you know, I had three band pieces and I got the group can gather together and conducted everything. Um, and one of my professors was playing French Horn in the ensemble and so I went off, I went up to him after a rehearsal and said, you know, how do you think it went, do you have any advice? And he said, uh, try to think more like the composer. No, sorry, he said, try to think more like the conductor, then the composer. Um, so I guess my first question would be, what do you think he meant by that? And then also you talked about being there in a composer's capacity and a conductor's capacity and how are those thoughts different in your mind? S: Okay. Okay. So more like the conductor than the composer. F: That's what he said. Try to think more like the conductor then the composer. S: Okay. Well I think with, you know, uh, I think the, I tend to bury it, I try to be as efficient as possible. So you go running my first fall, um, you know, there's definitely that sort of like a natural micro macro approach that you want to use. Um, and so I sort of wonder, like I haven't, I've conducted my own work a little bit. Um, but I think, uh, you know, every group is different, so I'm still approaching it like a conductor. I say like, you're, you're prioritizing. Well this wasn't perfect, but it's not as important as making sure that we stay together. It needs bars, you know, like I didn't have this moment isn't like musically what I wanted to be, but there's bigger district provide. Um, and so sort of having that perspective of we've got to get this thing working before we get to the moment that isn't emotionally important to me as a composer potentially. Um, and I don't know. So I, I think I, because I consider myself more of a conductor composer than the other way around. I'm pretty good at this point in my career at prioritizing what needs to happen in the rehearsal. Like big stuff. The little stuff. And I don't know if he was maybe referring to like getting sort of bogged down in minutia of what was really important as a composer. But I can see that like wanting to, you know, maybe explain potentially like, this is what I was thinking when really you should be working on that. Like we gotta stay together, 20 bars kind of thing. Um, so maybe like I can totally see meeting to set aside. I'm satisfied some of your own artistic vision as a composer when you're actually running and approaching it from that direction. I guess I, because I'm still more my experiences as a conductor. I wonder if like, I don't wouldn't have that. Like that kind of thing. F: Primarily being a conductor, do you find it easier to remove yourself from your own pieces? S: I think so. Um, I worked on my band and it was for sure perfectly. Um, and that's just the way it's going to be able to. Other things. Well, it's never going to be like that conductor attitude of like, you do the best you can in the time that you have, um, anything new through rehearsal efficiently, then it's a process that important. And so they never dreamed up. These clarinets never cleaned up these runs and this one really technical section, but they tried. Really? Yeah. It generally still get the feeling still get the cross. So yeah.

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F: Yeah. I think the wind symphony did that either last year or the year before. That was a great piece. S: One thing. I think I can remove myself emotionally, like how it's going to be. F: Do you think you could ever conduct one of your own pieces as if it was someone else's or is there still kind of like that little bit of connection that'll never. S: I suppose there's always a little bit of something. I think I would say that I think with my own cases in my preparation, I think I know etc. And I actually do as a conductor, that's been my main bugaboo is that I think, I think because I wrote it that I know about it and that is not the case at all. Um, especially um, some rhythmic things and um, and tensile things that I thought would feel a certain way, feel a certain way in my head. Do you remember the group of people feels very different. Um, so I think that's been my main thing is like with my own teachers, it's that I think I've known as a conductor better than I do and that has turned out to be that I need to spend time like practicing conducting the piece just because I wrote it to, you know, get up there and do it. That's not the case. F: A good lead into my next question. Um, so do you prepare your own scores differently than you prepare other people's scores? S: I think my previous answer both. First of all, I probably don't spend time on my own either. I probably spend less time on my own because it better. So you can call that a flaw of mine I guess. Um, but I, I think because a lot of detail work that, um, that I do on other people's faces because I'm looking at them and as questions come up I have to, I think there's an examination of other scores. you have to carefully, well what is the composer, what did they attend? And then answering those questions to the best of your ability. But I already have my own stuff. I already know what the answer to that are. I just like fun, like, you know, if I want something shorter, even though I didn't park it the condo. I know in my head I wanted to, I just tell everybody like, oh, it's just a little bit shorter than that. I'd only been market, but it's not really the kind of like a little bit of space and you know, they fIll out of information that in my head that I don't have to try to go from um, you know, somebody else's score. Yeah. F: Kind of along those lines, where does the composer's job end and the conductor's job begin? Because I know you mentioned that as a composer, conducting your own piece, you know, you know, to say, okay, well I know there's notes are not necessarily mark , but I want them to little shorter. Right. So as you know, another, If someone else was conducting one of your pieces, how much of an artistic license do they have? S: Yeah, I mean I think if I truly want something a certain way, I got to put it on the page and if I don't put it on there, I need to be okay with letting people make those calls. Um, and there's, you know, we all know that, there are variations in how things go, well probably the biggest one, Um, and so if I feel like no things to be a certain tempo, I couldn't leave, I need to not just the word allegro but allegro 126, but what I've, it is that person at least a clue, you know, but then, you know, sometimes stuff just feels like a separate wrong tempo and I certainly made adjustments of other people's music one direction or another. I against the metronome, you

285 know, this is man, this is just dragging at the tempo and speede up a click and if it feels right with your group and that personnel know that be okay with letting go and try these specific. But then once it's out there in the world, um, you just gotta just gotta let people do what they're gonna do with it. F: There's so many factors, you know, it depends on the, depends on the size of the group, depends on let me know and I find with my own pieces when you know I'm there and they first start rehearsing them. There's, there's, there's two things that I will probably always make gas an adjustment of the tempo. And the other is balance. Um, because it's just, you never know, S: Oh yeah, you know, that, you know, I definitely fall on the composer conductor and we activate those adjustments all the time. Like I really know. That's just the way. That's just the reality of the situation is you have to, you also have to credit her to a place that. So yeah, I mean occasionally I'll say that if he usually always falls down to central for me. Like that's the one thing I'm always like, oh, it doesn't feel right what they did, but I'm sure it's right now. And uh, you know, he okay with it and know that that's what they were, what kind of feeling it and edit it. Was it because they just so funky. So I, they're the ones making the actual. He said that it's, that's so funny and cute chosen way, but I chosen me, I'm conducting in composition or you don't actually make any sound whatsoever, like you're not actually contributing made, needed both of those art forms I think, but yeah. F: Um, so do you feel as though sometimes composers and conductors have or have to have dIfferent priorities? Um, because, you know, like when we brought up things like tempo and unbalanced, you say, well, you definitely fall in the conductor side of that. Um, so do you feel like, you know, composers and conductors kind of have different, have to have different priorities when it comes to their part and then the process of making music. S: Oh, there's different priority. F: Yeah. S: Wow. I'm just trying to, that's a great question. I'm just trying to wrap my head around it. Um, I guess the priority for a conductor, I guess I'll speak for myself, it seems like their priority would be more, uh, off the page in performance. And so, um, you know, what we do. Okay. I'm just gonna I'm just gonna keep talking. F: No, it's all good. S:You know, as a conductor, we're dealing with live performance and so their priority is to get the music to the greatest degree for the one time shot, you know, a lot of like practicing repetition and justin and what is gonna make the sound with that for this seven minute that we have for that, this piece of art. And then once it's done, it's done how we can't go back. Uh, that's what it is. There's the art one, seven minute chunk of time where all the proposer is, you know, a different kind of artist, you know, they are uh, how can I, how can I, uh, I have, uh, the key and saying what I wanted to say and they can go back and make an edit as they can about what they want, but they have the opportunity to photos. Um, we have the opportunity to go back and edit and change and work on something until well until the deadline and whatever they kind of thing.

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So it's sort of you know, I feel like it's the difference between like a, you know, a choreographer and a dancer. It's the same or a playwright and a director, but it's same relationship of, of, uh, you know, the artist is an artist create a thing because I have to, uh, you know, brings it to life in the window of time and they seem to like, I think they're, you know, they're related, but they're very different. So it just, it's just such a different is, are making for those sorts of things, has different sets of tools. Does that kind make sense? F: Yeah. And so because my next question would be like, as a, as someone who conducts in composes, do you feel like you were able to bridge that gap? Um, and you know, in a way like the, to kind of unite both sides of the process? S: Yeah. I think, I think the other, I think inform each other. And I guess I say that with a little bit of a caveat, but I've really only been composing for about five years. Seriously, you know, but I think one informs the other. I think when I look at scores and then doing score analysis as a conductor, um, you know, the preparation for those, it's always more insightful if I can look at it with another piece of music with a composers, I. Because I think that informed my interpretation as a conductor. Um, you know, I think the deeper you look into music, I remember I spent a summer, like I'm really digging into a Holst First Suite, and it was, it was pretty much every chord of that Chaconne movement. Um, but I was looking at like, is that everything in there? Um, and I, but I really that part a lot more than I wouldn't continue as a conductor as a result. I think I feel very solid in my interpretation when I do so first week I feel like have really deep understanding of that music and I feel confident in my musical choices as a conductor because of that. F: Let’s talk about programming for a little bit. So you mentioned that you really got into composing about five, six years ago. Um, so in the past five, six years, has your spike in, you're interested in composing at all change to the way that you program. S: Hey, it doesn't have you done that yet with section of my own when I feel it's appropriate and that, and that's always been a little bit of a thing. I feel like I should do that with more confidence. But, you know, sometimes with my students, I'll say, well look, we're going to do that. I wrote it, but the reason we're doing this is because I think it's good for a, like the university and that I'm doing this outreach with the other schools in that part of the reason that we're having an honors program. And, um, I kept there a lot longer. Um, I, um, I don't, I don't think it has, has changed from my programming significantly. I think I'm thinking about what benefits my group, uh, the best, um, what's going to be as variety, what I want to teach my students this semester. I'm stretched them what's going to be good, sort of working on their musicianship, all those things. So, um, I think I'm more in the um, yeah, putting on my own cases on a program occasionally if I don't, I don't think it's changed. F: And so when you're, when you're looking at, you know, when you're going through a stack of scores and thinking about what the program, do you kind of look at the composition, like the aspects of the composition and kind of evaluated as a composer or do you just think about, you know, what are the challenges and the advantages that make it a good fit for the group?

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S: Yeah, I feel like that's the most conductor job. I mean, taking your program that work that you do, thoughtful, and even if you have to reprogram a little bit to fit your group like that, does that kind of work is so important that, that just studying, studying for wealthy. Oh shoot. I lost it again. What was the question? F: Just when you're looking at new pieces of music to potentially program, do you think more about the composition or like the, if it's a good fit for the group? S: Yeah, well I guess I will only program work for that I think are of artistic value and that's always been the case in my whole career is, you know, I, if I think if he is, I think there's some, I mean I think there are pieces that are so different purposes, but I do think there are some cases out there that I would use to program because I just don't personally feel either the city or, you know, it feels like um, you know, knowing a little bit about the publication, the publishing industry now, uh, sometimes I think there's a little bit of a money grab for something. Um, like holidays in particular feels that way sometimes. Me, not always, but if I feel like that's always been the first round for me, I just feel like a here coming from the composer and then, you know, once I've kind of looked at a case and I think, yeah, this does seem like a good excuse me to just keep men all figured out if it's gonna fit my glutes, um, uh, has, and then what else is going to work with and um, and recently part of the conversation that's been happening in, um, well I would say the entire music world right now is the, uh, you know, the idea of programming more a living composers and more composers of color. So that's been a big part of re recent programming I need to say is I'm seeking out women people of color and sort of prioritizing them in my work. So finding those works, contenders and then finding things that are going to work on a program, this, those pieces. So I think it's becoming a bigger part of the conductor conversation right now is, um, you know, uh, that, that sort of to, uh, to find the work of the composers who are had to have tradition and in the minority of composers. Yeah. F: Have you either given composition lessons or have you ever looked at other people's music S: Ive teaching at the university level long enough now that I definitely had never any formal composition lessons and I actually really hesitate to think that I teach one of those classes at most basic level because I'm, in some ways I feel very untrained, you know, if that makes sense. The feeling I have is limited to the composers that I studied, but I have had students that has brought me from and you know, I've asked like what do you think? And um, things I feel great about that I can do as a conductor is, um, you know, it's all my bands. Every semester I say, you know, if you have a piece that you have written for, you will read it. Like we'll make the time to always read it. Um, and I, and then I'll tell them also, you know, and if you're willing to work on it and get it into a place where it's programmable, um, I'll program it. That's one of the benefits. Um, maybe they met the composer relationship as I look at these things and I, the founder had last semester showing it to them, um, and I'm just like, he played, he played through it for me and I thought, boy, this is going to be up there to conduct and um, you know, but I was able to, to talk to him about, you know, um, you know, I think he, a thing that young composers potentially do, which is not the balance is how much repetition but how much you need to be in a competition. He is on the day on the side if there's too much, there's too much new, new, new new repetition in his, in his, uh, in his piece. So we talked about that and um, anyway, we ended up reading it

288 and it was, it was great. So, um, so I, I was thinking he needs to work on it. It is a really kind of unique to sort of speak to both of those things and also be able to program, you know, other New York like myself, it's very convenient. F: And so when you're critiquing someone else's piece, when you're looking at your experience as a conductor influence, um, you know, the comments that you'd give them? S: I'll, you know, just in case that was five, five, four or five meter and went back and forth between the two. And so there was definitely some metric decisions, but I thought how am I going to conduct and how stressed, you know, five. And that wasn't necessarily something that they didn't have thought about when you are in the secondary step three or before was like what's the and what's the thing and how does it feel personally? Because I couldn't tell because of the way making it. So, um, so, you know, we had an opportunity to talk about that. Um, uh, and like, yeah, if he has like four equals 200 kinds of things that I and I, you know, you sort of explain like, well it would be a lot easier to read if it was um, you know, if you, if you did it in five days instead of five for in these sections, like that kind of thing that makes it doable. I think there's like human elements that the conductor is used to working wi/th that composer occasionally is lot. And I, I definitely see myself when I'm writing for better or worse I would say. And I think it can go both ways now I'm thinking about what the players will be playing the music and in some ways I did get supplies and, and other ways. I think it's a detriment in my own writing. F: On the subject of meters and stuff, does being a conductor affect the way that you choose, you know, your meters, you mentioned with groupings, um, and just the way you deal with range and technical prowess and balance and all that stuff when you compose? S: Absolutely. Yeah. Like I said, because, uh, because I had that experience as a conductor, I am thinking of making choices about how to notate things rhythmically based on sometimes based on what I did, I also made some decisions in some of my pieces to a sort of purposely will things law or against the need for the same reason in that I just kind of wanted to go on. This also has, um, I don't know if you've read my dissertation, you do not need to, but I'm actually a lot of my, probably a lot of my work on Copeland's El Salon Mexico and I worked on rhythmic meaning in his work, has probably influenced a lot of thinking as a conductor and composer on that. Um, it kind of relates to this topic, so you might want to just read the abstract and see if it, if it is of interest. But basically Copeland re-beamed El Salon Mexico because the conductor didn't want conducted the way that he originally had it been. F: I'm actually, I'm actually really interested in reading this because Copeland's, my favorite composer. S: Yeah. S: And, uh, I remember now once you told me that you told me you did your DMA with Russ, I remember he was telling me during a lesson that you actually went to the library of Congress and I just didn't connect to the name that I had heard your name with, um before, but you went to like the library of Congress and you got to look at some original manuscripts or something.

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S: That was an amazing three days. That was a really, really cool dissertation. And I do think you're hopeless. I think it might be of interest, but especially, um, uh, some of it, I can't remember now, but talking about that there's a letter. Um, I think they wrote about very marrying the is saying that this is not possible. And then, um, I have two examples of the kinds of changes that had to make the game. Uh, basically took all the five eights and sevens, eights and had to put them all in three slash four like we live for yet. But. So, um, anyway, I talked about that, you know, at night, because of course we have to when it's your dissertation, but they might be, it actually might be an interesting sort of like factories and since this is your topic, um, but I think writing that paper definitely to as fellows my choices about things and how things you feel or not feel to the conductor. F: So has your interpretation of your own music ever changed from hearing someone else conduct it? S: Um, I’m not sure that I have had that experience quite enough to, to, um, to have that happen. Um, I know I really enjoy Russ’s interpretation in particular. I think the second movement is a Steampunk Suite. Like he did last year and I remember being like, yeah, that's how those, how the transition should feel. That feels right. And I don't know that they were exactly like what I thought in my head and I followed that feels right. So I just maybe, um, but in the moment of like conducting that influenced it or not? That's a good question. I guess I'm not experienced enough to know if I can answer that. F; And has the opposite ever happened? Has a composer ever come up to you and said, wow, you know, you're, you've given me a whole new perspective on what I wrote. S: I haven't had that happen. I did however have two band directors that came up to me, I had conducted the Holst First Suite and I had these directors come up to me and say they heard things they hadn’t noticed before in the Holst because of choices I had made. But those were other directors, not like Holst or anything. F: That is still really cool, considering how many times people have heard that piece. I think I've heard the whole suite probably about a thousand times. And that's really cool when you get to hear it fresh in a certain way. Um, cool. So just to Kinda wrap up, what in particular do you really love about conducting your own music? S: Well, there is certainly a freedom. If I screw it up, you know, it's just me. It's my stuff like freedom and joy. I like. I'm not beholding to anybody like students sambal. I'm not like a, you know, it's not like I'm being riot, like not like insulting him by saying something faster or slower. I make an error or musical judgement error that he wouldn't have liked, you know, there's none of that. So there's a certain element of, of freedom of life. I can, you know, what it, it lights up so I can say you want without worrying about the, the other person who said all this crap into the, into their piece, which I think normally I would see I'm, I'm, I'm very concerned about making sure I interpret things that I, that I can answer the questions I, I, I want, but I don't have to worry about that. So much of my own stuff. So it's like fun. So I think there's more freedom in that. F: And do you find any particular challenges in conducting your own music?

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S: The thing I mentioned before, like I need to remember that need to worry about the conductor and composer. That's the challenge that I've had with my current experiences is that I need to make sure that I, and I'm, I need to make sure that can physically do it and not assume that I can. So that's probably the biggest challenge is making I it better than I do F: I mean, I know we've covered a lot already, but just to, do you have any other thoughts on how doing both has, um, you know, improve both of those skills and his enhanced those skills? Um, especially like you said, for you like in the last five, six years since you really got into composing. S: Let's see how I think it has no clue. Well, I guess that's what type of rehashing again a little bit, but um, I think, I guess I think what we're picking up proposition I'm being a conductor is that because I'm so aware of what the deal with the collective deals with and what to do when they are looking at that perspective, that perspective definitely work into my competition. Um, so I think, like I said before, that's been both an advantage than a disadvantage. I think it's an advantage because my music is probably generally more playable. Um, uh, then some other composer, but on the other hand, I think that maybe I was too worried about what I think the players experience is going to be and that I'm not worried that stuff. Not worried, but maybe it's all worried. Not really sure which one, but maybe my stuff will not ever be innovate in that figure out how to make it work. That kind of makes sense. Definitely. So, yeah. I'm not sure that question, but I guess that's what I thought it was just about there, but F: Great. Well thank you very much. Um, I hope you enjoy doing this S: Thanks for asking me.

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Zachary Friedland Interview with Jason Tauris June 16th, 2018

Friedland: As you know you this is completely voluntary. Can stop at any time. Asks for permission to use direct quotes, name, job title for dissertation. Taurins: Sure. You have my permission. F: Do you consider yourself more a conductor/composer or composer/conductor? T: I think I consider myself first a composer, rather than a conductor. I think that’s a separate aspect of my musical identity to my teaching job, so my primary teaching job, mostly what I do is conduct. I do middle high school and middle school. So I teach 6th grade band, 7th grade, 8th grade bands. I have a middle school jazz band and also work with high school marching band. F: At what age did you start composing? T: I’m not sure how old I was, but it would have been in middle school, probably 7th grade. That’s when I first started composing. Um, I never got really serious about composing until I was late in high school and decided music might be something I want to do with the rest of my life. But, my first conducting experience was as my high school’s drum major, I was the drum major my senior year of high school. That’s when I first learned how to conduct basic beat patterns, that kind of a thing. And then I took two semesters of conducting at West Michigan where I did my undergrad and then as part of that I started conducting my high school’s band every year at graduation so my band director invited me back to either do one piece or multiple pieces at the commencement ceremony where I went to high school. F: Great. When you are at a concert, do you find yourself listening more to the compositional aspects of the music, or evaluating the performance of the group? T: I think it’s context dependent. So if I’m going to a concert of like a new music ensemble, or an advance collegiate bands, or a professional band, I’m often listening to music I’m not familiar with so I have to approach I’m listening for harmony, counterpoint, texture, timbre. Most of the concerts I go to nowadays is what we call standard band repertoire that we teach in middle school and high school so I’m often just evaluating how the kids sound, have they improved over the course of the semester or the year. F: Does that change when you are listening to a performance of one of your own compositions? T: Yeah, I mean I like to know that they are getting all the notes and rhythms correct, and the basic interpretation marks that I put in to the music correct. Um, otherwise, I do like to hear their interpretation of what I’ve written. F: Is there any difference between hearing the first performance of one of your pieces and like the 10th performance? T: With performances, like I say because I’m familiar with it. When I’m writing something for the first time because it’s all kind of abstract and in my mind, the first time I hear it, then I get to

292 listen to how the thing actually sounds in the real world with real musicians. Then subsequent performances, I just listen to the expressive aspects and get to enjoy it a little more. F: So the first time you hear it, it’s kind of a more of a self-evaluation? T: Yeah, does it actually sound like what I wanted it to sound like or do I need to make revisions, that kind of thing. F: So, um, you’ve conducted your own works a lot or … T: Yeah, I’ve conducted most of my performances of my music. F: Ok, Ok. Um, so, do you prepare your own scores differently than you do with your high school and middle school bands. T: I think my view of my purview as a composer gives me some insight into what it’s like to be a composer F: um uh T: I think when they wrote their music, but when conducting my own music, I have most of those disconnects between the abstract piece’s score and the artistic concept in my mind. F: Hold on. Let me just start again. You’re talking about do you prepare your own scores differently than you do other composers’ scores? T: I think I do. Um, When, I’m studying another person’s score, I try to get into the composer’s mind and think about what they were thinking, what particular harmony or texture, or something like that. But, with my own music, there’s a disconnect between the concept that’s in my mind and what’s written on the page. It also makes it a lot easier to study the score because I have some kind of concept because I’ve been spending lots of time writing the music. F: Yup. Um, do you think it’s fair to say the compositional process itself almost is your score study? T: Yeah, Yeah, It definitely makes it easier for me. F: Cool. Um, and likewise, do you rehearse your own music differently than you rehearse other composer’s music? T: A question full of philosophical question…I like to think I conduct all music the same. I’m just trying to keep a sense of artistic integrity while helping my students grow. I guess if I’m conducting my own music, I have to think less of the rehearsal process. F: Um, OK. The reason I asked that question is and this is where this project has stemmed from, when I was an undergrad, for part of my senior recital, my senior composition recital, I had three band pieces and conducted them with the band I put together. After one of the rehearsals, asked Brian what he though. He said, “try to think more like the conductor than the composer.” My question to you is what do you think it means to think more like the conductor or more like the composer and how are those thoughts different in your mind?

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T: I think a conductor and a composer are actually different roles. One is a basic, artistic blueprint of the score. I guess if you could put everything in the score, it would be very difficult to read. I guess the conductor is more trying to unify your artistic interpretation within an ensemble, and then also unify the artistic interpretation. They have to do all those things that make it sound really good and unify the artistic interpretation of it beyond what is written on the page. F: Stemming from there where do you think the composer’s job ends and the conductor’s job begins? T: I guess the composer’s part ends with what’s on the page. And then I don’t think you have to be a micromanager as a composer, some composers tend to micromanage, work every little bit of detail they can into their scores. And that makes it easier to interpret their music. Because so much of what they want is detailed right on the page. But I tend to do that last and leave more up to the performer, or conductor. I think a conductor’s role is to step in and say OK, we’ve got all the notes, rhythms, and just general musical notation stuff down. Now we’ve gotta create an artistic experience that goes beyond maybe some phrase shaping and that kind of thing, create an artistic product. F: So you sound like you think of them as two separate entities so when you compose a piece and conduct the premiere is there a certain point that you feel like you stop being the composer and become the conductor? T: I don’t think I fully get out of the composer mindset. Even when I’m studying another person’s score I try to think of form, development, motives, all those things and see how they relate to each other, which comes from my compositional background, and my music theoretical background. I guess when I stop being the composer is when I start to interpret the music. I guess it’s creative in the sense that being the composer and being the conductor can be creative in the same sense. F: Going off that, you said you’re always thinking like the composers and when you stop being the composer you start to interpret the music, do you ever start to interpret your own music, through a conductor’s eyes? Is there ever a point during a rehearsal or once a piece has been out there for awhile that you are able to look at it from a different angle and maybe get a new idea or a new interpretation of it? T: I think so. Once I’m pretty familiar with a piece of music there are times when it even comes down to mood, I’m even conducting my own music that I’ll change a tempo here and there generally faster parts stay faster and slower parts stay slower, but I think of the tempo markings I put in, in particular, to be flexible and relative. So when I write quarter = 86 every time I conduct it and perform it with a group, I can certainly get out of that strick “this is what I wrote on the page. “ F: Do you ever think you can conduct your own pieces as if it was someone else’s? T: I would think I would be too emotionally invested in the creation of the piece to do that. Emotionally and intellectually involved. I could never divorce that part of myself. Although the

294 more I experience as a musician the better I think as a conductor I think my greatest experience as a musician overall has been studying applied trumpet in college. I think the better musician I became the more I understood the relevance of music history and music theory and composition and orchestration, and counterpoint and all those things and I can appreciate them at a deeper level. I think the more I spend as a composer and the longer I spend as a conductor, I get better at those things. As a composer, the intellectual side and then the artistic side would be the conductor’s part. I think the more artistic I develop, listening to really good pieces, but also practicing my own craft. The more I become, the better composer I become too. F: You talk about this growth over time, do you think you would answer in thinking back to some of the questions I asked you, do you think you would have answered them differently you know say 5 years ago? T: Yeah, I’m not sure I would have understood what you meant by conductor/composer vs composer/conductor. Like when I was in college, I was mostly a performer and composer and now out here in the real world I’ve been conducting a lot more and teaching a lot more. F: Have you found that – as you said – you think of them as somewhat separate entities – thinking back to that 5 years ago, how many years ago did you first start doing a lot of conducting – you said that happened a lot later once you were out teaching would you say that was about 5 years ago? T: About 5, 6 years ago actually. F: OK T: Once we started a music method courses, and we started conducting courses halfway through my undergrad so about 5 years ago. F: So about 5 years ago, T: About my 3rd year of college, so about 5, 6 years ago. F: OK, um so would you say you know maybe 2 or 3 years ago were those two entities of the composing and conducting – were they more separated than they are for you now or is it about the same? T: I think they are more separated. Like when I was in college mostly conducting other peoples’ work and then I would compose, it would be for a chamber ensemble that was not necessarily being conducted but hand off the music to someone else and they would interpret it, so I guess I would think of them as more separate today since I started writing a lot more large ensemble works and getting them performed. I currently combine those 2 roles of my musical profession. F: Cool, and so if you had to speculate, would you say maybe like 10 years down the road do you think you may think of them even more combined or do you think they might kinda stay where they are? I’m asking a lot of questions about this because I’m trying to pick up on a trend here.

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T: Definitely, I think, uh, the more mature I become as a musician, the more I keep all aspects of musicianship informing each other. But my performance helped me understand other aspects of music and I think that includes conducting and composing. I think the older I get, the more I perform, the more I compose, the more I conduct, the more they all strengthen each other. F: Awesome. Um, let’s talk about, because you are teaching instrumental music right now, you probably do a lot of programming um, does being a composer influence the way that you program for your bands? T: I guess when I’m choosing music, I try to think of music that the kids can perform so I’m considering things that a conductor would consider like instrumentation, range, harmony, difficulty – those kinds of things. Um, however, I do consider “is this a quality piece of music, what makes it a quality piece of music, so the composer part of my musical identity helps me identify those things. F: And, um, so when you look at someone else’s score for the first time, um, do you where does your mind go first? Do you kind of first look at is this a quality piece of music or do you kinda go right to you know all those things you talked about, range and you know, technical prowess, and all that stuff that would make it a good fit for your group or not? T: The first thing I look at, just because it’s my teaching job, is instrumentation. If I don’t have a bassoonist and there’s a prominent bassoon part, then I can’t program the piece of music. I have to make sure it’s a time signature my kids have been exposed to before since my job is teaching 6th, 7th, and 8th grade kids and how much time it’s going to take to teach if it’s a new thing and I look at key signature. We in the band world like lots of flats in our music. But if it’s a key with 5 or 6 flats that could present some difficulty for 6, 7, and 8 grade musicians. There’s a piece by Carl Rogymarch – a great piece of music but it’s got something like g flat and the trio I think is in d flat. A wonderful piece of music but I don’t think I would take it out with my middle school band. I might take it out with one of the high school bands though. So I do look at all those things that a conductor looks at first but if it’s a piece of music that meets all of my needs for my ensembles and I’m looking through it and it’s really really boring and there’s no variation no sense of development, etc, I might consider another piece of music. F: How often do you program your own music with your own groups? T: I do 3 or 4 pieces a year tops. I like to compose one of my jazz works for my jazz ensemble every year. I have one that I wrote for my kids called Pumpkin Spice Blues which is kind of a great name to have. And our school is called the [Missed name of school – 21 minutes] which in Spanish means squash or pumpkin so it’s become part of a traditional piece that the school does. It’s got a really catchy cheesy melody, but the kids love it. It’s an improvisation vehicle for them too, so they can learn about the blues changes, the chord changes for the blues and they learn how to improvise. And then my concert band, I might compose a work or two every year or I might break out an old one and put it in front of my kids. The fun part about composing for my kids is if I’m lacking an instrument, I don’t have to write a part for it but I have a really strong group. Usually I have really really strong trumpet. I think that’s partly because I’m a trumpet player myself so I can always write difficult trumpet parts, but I have to back off for clarinets or

296 low brass parts because I don’t have a large low brass section in school yet. So, I like to consider the personal needs of the kids and write for them. F: So does being a conductor and particularly being a conductor of middle and high school bands um affect the way you choose your technically prowess balance the range of your compositions, um and even like you know metrical grouping? T: I think when I write with particular metrical groupings, I kind of rely on my musical intuition. If I’m writing for like a school group, I try not to do any division of the beat below 8th notes so my time signatures will always have a 4, 8, or 2 on the bottom. I think time signatures with 16 are a little advanced. I guess I rely on musical intuition. Sometimes I’ll ask other musicians hey would you write this piece of music Would you write it in 15 a or 4 or plus 7, 8 or I had another piece of music that was in 6 plus 7 and I asked my colleague how would she prefer to read this. So I definitely do consider the ability of my students when I’m composing for them, I guess it’s less so when I’m writing for a high school group or whatever grade level I’m trying to achieve, either a 3 or a 4 and then whatever it comes out, comes out and then uh, when I pass off to my high school director, and she performs it, I can evaluate kind of afterwards um, what went well, what needs to be changed kind of things. Like I wrote a piece for the high school band called super something and woodwinds were really struggling with the technical runs and I realized it was because of the articulation so I changed the articulation patterns from a bunch of 16th notes that they got stuck on, um, I changed up the patterns to make it a little more manageable and back tempo. F: Cool, when giving someone on a composition lesson um how to you find that your experience as a conductor might play into how you critique their piece? T: If I’m looking at a score for the first time for a student, I also think how might a conductor from the outside or a performer look at this? Would it be easy to read, would it be difficult to read um, are the ranges possible like you don’t want to write a low A for a saxophone part which a surprising number of composers do. I always look at it to make sure the range is possible, F: Yeah T: I look at things that would be hard for techniques, especially with brass instruments, that’s my area of expertise, um, but then when I teach composition, because I teach young students, I give them lots of parameters so my jazz band, we have a unit in the spring where we do composition and I give them parameters. They have to write it to their [something] in b flat major, time signature is 4/4 have to write something that fits blues and give me a b flat blues scale. So I try to uh, because I’m teaching beginning composers I give them as many limitations as possible so they don’t get overwhelmed by a blank page of music. F: Cool, um and going back to interpretation, um, has your interpretation of your music ever changed by hearing someone else conduct it? Like, um, so I know you mentioned before that you know you said that your pretty, you’re more liberal with your you know tempo markings and stuff like that um so has anyone ever conducted a performance of your piece that you say oh that was different than I originally heard it in my head but um …

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T: I have tried performances where I’m like oh that’s not quite what I wanted and I’ve had to go back and evaluate what did I do with the score to make that not happen. Um, I’m trying to think of performances which were really awesome, um, I wrote a piece for a flute and (something) duo, but it wasn’t conducted but the performed it in this really gorgeous performance space by both army level musicians, one of them just finished her doctorate and they interpreted a like section in a very different way um and something about turning the title into some play acting which I thought was just wonderful. F: Awesome, um, just kind of a few more questions to wrap up. These are kinda big general things. You know what in particular do you really love about conducting your own music? T: I think the reason we compose is and I can say this personally, the reason I compose is I feel compelled to do it and so when I get to share an artistic vision as a conductor I think in a lot of ways it’s most authentic method of conveying my vision because it’s me conducting my music. It reminded me of concerts that Leonard Bernstein did. He recorded them on video and he actually had Stravinsky go out and conduct Firebird and it was just wonderful to hear exactly how and to see exactly how Stravinsky wanted his own music to sound. F: Um, and do you find that there are any particular challenges um to conducting your own music? T: I think it’s easier in a sense because um I already have a good sense of what the composition is supposed to sound like and look like um because I invested so much in composing it but that also makes me really nervous when presenting it to a group the first time will the students hate it, will the audience hate it? I’ve always been told by my composition teachers to have other people see my music too just to make sure what I’m not just trying to convey what’s in my head with them but what I put on paper makes sense to everyone else. I guess having other people look at my music before I perform it um, can be valuable to make sure that what I wrote down is what I meant to do. F: Great. And last question, how do you feel your experience being a composer and a conductor has influenced and possibly enhanced both of these skills? T: One of the first things a conductor has to do is explore the piece really well um, I think I can get into my head a little closer with the harmony forms and make developments, motivic developments and those kind of things in the score, so I guess being the composer. Knowing a lot of composers helps as well, uh, so if I’m performing a piece by a composer I’m friends with on Facebook, or someone I met in real life I can actually ask them about that. Being a composer has definitely forced me as a conductor because it makes me want to choose lots of pieces by living composers composing solely for their income and there are so many wonderful composers out there I don’t know why so many, now I’m being a little bit political here, but so many treat music like it’s only written by dead white people and that composition stopped 100 years ago. But um I think that the composer part of my identity has forced me to want to play living composers, people who are writing exciting new music rather than the same piece we’ve heard 100 times before. Another thing about composers being um a white men’s club or a white European men’s club is also forcing considerations of social justice. Am I including pieces by

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Mexican composers since I teach a lot of students of Mexican descent um, am I choosing music by Black composers, am I choosing music by Native American composers, am I choosing music written by women. And it’s hard because not a lot of publishers publish that kind of stuff so I rely on my network of composers to find out that music and that helps me out as a conductor and choosing the repertoire F: Awesome, thank you very much. T: Another question I’m not sure we’ve addressed yet. How do you deal with extremes of range in your compositions? When writing for a middle school band, I’m obviously going to simplify range and make it things that are possible, but I’ve written for professional musicians as well and some of that is it’s mind blowing what they can do on their instrument and so I can write really, really hard music but I try to suit what I’m writing to each individual project depending on whom I’m writing it for. F: Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

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Appendix B: Score Study Survey Zachary Friedland – Dissertation Research Score Study Notes for Conductors

Was there a discernable difference in the way you studied your own score or your colleague’s? (Yes/No) If yes, please note specific differences. ______

It was presumably easier to audiate your own score. Did this difference effect the way you thought about the balance of the two different pieces? (Yes/No) If yes, specifically how? ______

Did you find it easier to anticipate specific rehearsal problems in your own piece? (Yes/No) If yes, please note specific differences. ______

When composing your own piece, did you consider specific rehearsal problems as part of your composition process? (Yes/No) If yes, please note specific differences. ______

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Appendix C: Ensemble Rubric

Zachary Friedland – Dissertation Research Practical Conductor Evaluation (Ensemble Player Version)

During which rehearsal/performance did the conductor’s gestural vocabulary give you a better idea of how to express the music? Please reference any gestures you found particularly effective or ineffective.

Piece 1 or Piece 2

______

During which rehearsal/performance did the conductor’s rehearsal comments more efficiently improve you and the ensemble’s performance? Please reference any comments you found particularly effective or ineffective.

Piece 1 or Piece 2

______

Did you notice any substantial difference in eye contact with the ensemble when the conductor was rehearsing one piece for the other? If so, please indicate.

Piece 1 or Piece 2 No Discernable Difference

During which rehearsal/performance did you feel the conductor had a better (or more confident) presence interacting with you on the podium? Please reference anything in particular you felt was different between the two pieces.

Piece 1 or Piece 2

______

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______

Additional Comments:______

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Appendix D: Evaluator Rubric

Zachary Friedland – Dissertation Research Practical Conductor Evaluation (Evaluator Version)

Please circle which piece’s performance you felt was better in each of the following categories.

Accuracy of Notes and Rhythms Piece 1 Piece 2 Intonation and Balance of the Ensemble Piece 1 Piece 2 Appropriateness of Tempi Piece 1 Piece 2 Artistic Expression Piece 1 Piece 2

During which rehearsal/performance did the conductor’s gestural vocabulary work more to express the music? Please reference any gestures you found particularly effective or ineffective.

Piece 1 or Piece 2

______

During which rehearsal/performance did the conductor’s rehearsal comments more efficiently improve the ensembles performance? Please reference any comments you found particularly effective or ineffective.

Piece 1 or Piece 2

______

Did you notice any substantial difference in eye contact with the ensemble when the conductor was rehearsing one piece for the other? If so, please indicate.

Piece 1 or Piece 2 No Discernable Difference

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During which rehearsal/performance did you feel the conductor had a better (or more confident) presence on the podium? Please reference anything in particular you felt was different between the two pieces.

Piece 1 or Piece 2

______

Additional Comments:______

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Appendix E: Self Evaluation Rubric

Zachary Friedland – Dissertation Research Practical Conductor Evaluation (Self Evaluation Version)

Please circle which piece’s performance you felt was better in each of the following categories.

Accuracy of Notes and Rhythms Your Piece Colleague’s Piece Intonation and Balance of the Ensemble Your Piece Colleague’s Piece Appropriateness of Tempi Your Piece Colleague’s Piece Artistic Expression Your Piece Colleague’s Piece

During which rehearsal/performance did you feel your gestural vocabulary worked more to express the music? Please reference any gestures you think particularly effective or ineffective.

Your Piece or Colleague’s Piece

______

During which rehearsal/performance did you feel your comments worked more efficiently improve the ensembles performance? Please reference any comments you found particularly effective or ineffective.

Your Piece or Colleague’s Piece

______

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During which rehearsal/performance did you feel you had a better (or more confident) presence on the podium? Please reference anything in particular you felt was different between the two pieces.

Your Piece or Colleague’s Piece

______

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