Pre-School Teachers and Assistants Bill 31 October 1984 COUNCIL 1087

Wednesday, 31 October 1984 be provided for prisoners and that air-con­ ditioning is being provided at considerable The PRESIDENT (the Hon. F. S. Grim­ expense in lockup cells. Is this proposal de­ wade) took the chair at 10.33 a.m. and read signed to reduce the length of stay of pris­ the prayer. oners and thus the cost of accommodating them in cells? PRE-SCHOOL TEACHERS AND The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Minister ASSISTANTS (PORTABILITY OF for Conservation, Forests and Lands)-As LONG SERVICE LEAVE) BILL the representative of the Minister for Police This Bill was received from the Assembly and Emergency Services in this House, I and, on the motion of the Hon. D. R. shall take up the matter with him, firstly, to WHITE (Minister for Minerals and En­ determine whether what the honourable ergy), was read a first time. member says is correct, and, secondly, in order to reply to the honourable member directly. QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE AV AILABILITY OF SERVICED LAND The Hon. M. J. ARNOLD (Templestowe BOURKE STREET MALL Province)-I direct a question to the Min­ The Hon. H. R. WARD (South Eastern ister for Planning and Environment. An ar­ Province)-I direct a question to the Min­ ticle that recently appeared in the Age ister for Planning and Environment. Was it referred to the shortage of serviced land in a Cabinet decision to spend $500 000 on the outer suburbs of Melbourne. Will the artificial grass in the Bourke Street Mall to Minister explain on this morning of the hold a fiesta for the week-end of 9 and 10 "Last Supper", why this apparent shortfall February which, incidentally, is the week has been allowed to occur? before the proposed State election? The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Planning and Environment)-No evidence Planning and Environment)-The Minis­ has been provided in the articles to support try for Planning and Environment has been the view to which Mr Amold refers. Quart­ involved in significant plans for Victoria's erly surveys of local government areas and 150th anniversary celebrations. One of the developers to obtain data on residential projects that I believe the Premier may have subdivisions, production and sales are con­ referred to recently is what may be called a ducted by my Ministry. The surveys indi­ street party in Swanston Street. Details of cate that the provision of new residential the party are not yet complete, but the in­ lots increased substantially in the first half tention is that the street will be closed for a of 1984-117 per cent more than in the day or two so that the people of Melbourne same period last year. The surveys also in­ can enjoy a party. The arrangements for the dicate that the industry has continued to party have not yet been determined. That is respond extremely well to improved market the project to which the honourable mem­ conditions by further increases in construc­ ber referred and to which the Premier made tion activity. During the March and June reference in talking about the 150th anni­ quarters of this year a total of 6661 new lots versary celebrations. were commenced. That is a high figure. Since September 1983 the number of new MILDURA POLICE STATION lots in the course of production has ex­ The Hon. K. I. M. WRIGHT (North ceeded the number of lots consumed and Western Province)-The question I direct the difference is now widening so that the to the Minister for Conservation, Forests provision of lots is increasing. The esti­ and Lands, as the representative of the Min­ mated stock of unbuilt-on residential lots at ister for Police and Emergency Services and 30 June 1984 for all sectors was 32 340. That responsible for police "lockups", concerns figure represents an average of two and a the Mildura police station and an an­ half years supply at the current building rate. nouncement that, following an inquiry, The longer-term supply situation is also en­ morning tea, afternoon tea and supper is to couraging with 10·6 years of supply avail- 1088 COUNCIL 31 October 1984 Questions without Notice able as broad acres in zoning correctly wood and hardwood, and this year has within the metropolitan area. probably been a good year. The situation is misrepresented in the ar­ ticle. The circumstances of supply of land, PROPOSED RURAL STUDY TOUR in my view, are good. I understand that there The Hon. L. A. McARTHUR (Nuna­ are regional differences. One must watch wading Province)-I refer the Minister of that area carefully to ensure that supply does Agriculture to the proposed study tour of not occur mainly in one or two regions. rural industries that is supposed to take However, I inform the House that the cir­ place next week. Will the Minister indicate cumstances of the lots supplied for the peo­ whether the tour is to proceed and outline ple of Melbourne have improved. its aims and objectives so that he can put to rest the claim by Mr Dunn that members of GAS SALES the Government party have never been The Hon. D. G. CROZIER (Western nO'rth of Broadmeadows or east of Dande­ Province)-In view of the fact that $as sales nong? to Victorian manufacturing industnes have The Hon. D. E. KENT (Minister of Agri­ declined for the second successive year-I culture)-Following the successful agricul­ understand from the annual report of the tural tour last year throughout the northern Gas and Fuel Corporation tabled yesterday and Ballarat areas, it was decided that an­ that they are some 2 million gigajoules be­ other tour would be held this year. Last year low target-will the Minister for Minerals members from various parties participated and Energy inform the House whether it is in the tour, which proved of benefit to both Government policy to persist with the en­ Parliamentarians and people engaged in the ergy consumption levy? farming industry. The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for The tour is scheduled to take place on Minerals and Energy)-I am sure the Treas­ Wednesday and Thursday of next week and urer made it clear that there will be no real will extend to parts of south and west increase in the energy consumption levy in Gippsland. It will provide honourable the foreseeable future. Because that was a members with an opportunity of visiting statement of the Treasurer in the Budget, it and discussing issues with various dairy, remains Government policy. beef and sheep farmers as well as berry fruit and tobacco growers. RETURNS FROM FOREST The tour will also visit an on-farm cheese PRODUCTS factory, a butter factory, a farm machinery The Hon. D. M. EV ANS (North Eastern retailer, an agricultural supplier and a ma­ Province)-I refer the Minister for Conser­ jor butter factory. Last year's visit was con­ vation, Forests and Lands to press reports sidered to be of enormous value to those in recent days quoting an official of the New who participated and farmers and industry South Wales forest service as sayin~ that had the opportunity of expressing their pine and indigenous native species In the views on the agricultural situation to Parlia­ Tumut area together return a profit of $20 mentarians. For honourable members who million annually. Does the Victorian forest wish to avail themselves of the opportunity, industry return similar or equivalent profits space is available for several more members and, if not, why not? to participate. It is especially noticeable that The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Minister the people most in need of information for Conservation, Forests and Lands)-I am about agricultural industries are sadly lack­ not aware of the exact return from forest ing in showin~ an interest in the exercise. products. Was the honourable member re­ Only one National Party member has ap­ ferring only to softwood? plied to join the tour. The Hon. D. M. Evans-I referred to softwood and indigenous native species; the TENNYSON TEXTILES (AUST) PTY press report quoted both. LTD The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE-The The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN royalties from timber products are in the (Western Province)-My question is di­ vicinity of $25 million to $30 million per rected to the Minister for Planning and En­ annum. That is the current figure for soft- vironment. Is it a fact that the Government Questions without Notice 31 October 1984 COUNCIL 1089 has provided grants and loans totalling $2 has been met. To my knowledge, there was million to a company called Tennyson Tex­ no binding agreement that the company had tiles (Aust) Pty Ltd to induce it to move its to sell the site. It is able to continue to use operations from Murrumbeena to Dande­ the site at Murrumbeena for purposes that nong; is it also a fact that the condition of are not a nuisance in the area, and the En­ the assistance was that that company would vironment Protection Authority continues sell its Murrumbeena site for housing pur­ to monitor the operation. poses; and is it also true that the Govern­ ment failed to obtain a binding agreement PROPOSED VICTORIAN LIVESTOCK with the company for it to ensure it com­ AND MEAT AUTHORITY plies with that arrangement? The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Province)-Honourable members would be Planning and Environment)-It is true that aware that the Minister of Agriculture has the company known as Tennyson Textiles recently released a draft proposal for the (Aust) Pty Ltd, to which the honourable establishment of a Victorian livestock and member refers, was assisted by the Govern­ meat authority. I ask the Minister of Agri­ ment some eighteen months or two years culture whether he can explain to the House ago to move its main operation from Mur­ his rationale, if any, behind the su~estion rumbeena to Dandenong. I am not sure of in the discussion document providing for the total amount of assistance provided to only two producer representatives and no the company, but I believe it is in the vicin­ stock agent representatives on the ten­ ity of the figure Mr Chamberlain suggests, member committee of the authority, while which was provided in terms of loans and the Meat and Allied Trades Federation of grants, and I believe it was basically in terms Australia is proposed to be given two rep­ of loans. resentative places and the union is pro­ The company has continued to operate a posed to be given one? small part of its business in Murrum­ The Hon. D. E. KENT (Minister of Agri­ beena-the computer design section at the culture )-As Mr Dunn would be aware, that factory-and it recently transferred part of is a suggestion contained in a discussion its Sydney operation to Murrumbeena, paper. Among the suggestions is the pro­ which was, I understand, a sheet-making posed composition of a livestock and meat and packing operation. Both operations fall authority, which would have a broader role within the definition of "light industry", than the present Victorian Abattoir and which is the definition under which the site Meat Inspection Authority, including the is currently zoned. supervision of standards of sale-yards. Mr Chamberlain asks whether it was part The suggested composition of the com­ of the agreement that that company would mittee was arrived at after discussions with sell its site in Murrumbeena. It was never various sections of the industry in an en­ part of the agreement that it must sell the deavour to include the people who are site; the agreement was that the company vitally concerned about the wide range of must stop the operation it carried out there activities which would be covered. As a re­ in the past, which concerned local residents. sult of receiving comments on the discus­ In other words, the company had to shift sion paper, it was considered that the stock the operation that caused pollution to Dan­ and station agents should have representa­ denong, which it has done. To my know­ tion. I have no doubt that that proposal will ledge, no agreement was made that the be given every consideration by the Gov­ company must sell the site, nor is there any ernment. reason why it should if it operates in such a way that forms no nuisance to local resi­ PLANNING FUNCTION TRANSFER den ts. I believe the firm had tried to sell the The Hon. D. E. HENSHAW (Geelong site, but it was not part of the conditions of Province )-Can the Minister for Planning the agreement for the loans that it should and Environment advise the House what is do so. the current status of the transfer of the Mel­ In regard to the last part of the question, bourne and Metropolitan Board of Works the binding agreement was on the shifting planning function to the Ministry for Plan­ of the nuisance activity, and that agreement ning and Environment? 1090 COUNCIL 31 October 1984 Questions without Notice

The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for CONTRIBUTIONS TO SEWERAGE Planning and Environment)-In June of AUTHORITIES this year, the Government agreed to res­ The Hon. R. J. LONG (Gippsland Prov­ tructure the Board of Works, and the prin­ ince)-In respect of the Drysdale-Clifton cipal change was the transfer of the board's Springs sewerage scheme, does the Minister planning function, including staff, to the for Water Resources agree that a contribu­ Ministry for Planning and Environment. tion of$1265 for vacant land and $700 for The change occurred following, as honour­ land with a building thereon discriminates able members know, an extensive exami­ against vacant landowners? Is the Minister nation of the board's functions and much aware that prior to the Bellarine Sewerage consultation with local government and Authority giving formal notice of the differ­ other interested groups. ential contribution, the authority con­ ducted a survey among landowners which Three major issues are currently being ex­ indicated that the majority were in favour amined by the implementation working of equal contributions? groups. Firstly, a working group is examin­ The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for ing the metropolitan planning processes at Water Resources)-The notion ofhavin~ a large because, with the transfer of the Board differential contribution for blocks wIth of Works planning function to the Ministry septic tanks compared to vacant blocks is for Planning and Environment, there is the sensible on the ground of equity and on the prospect of some of the board's functions basis that a person who has already built a being transferred to the local government house has made a contribution towards level. providing septic tanks, and in respect of va­ cant blocks at some stage he or she would Secondly, financial aspects of the trans­ have had to face up to the contribution for fer, including the future use of the Metro­ septic tanks and a contribution towards the politan Improvement Fund, are being reticulation system for a sewerage scheme. considered by a second working group. The Government has provided, under the Thirdly, a working group is examining staff Sewerage Districts Act and the Board of transfer issues in relation to the welfare of Works provisions, for differential contribu­ staff who Will transfer from a statutory tions for vacant landowners compared to authority to the Public Service. occupiers of households. Not only is it rea­ Options are being developed for a future sonable on the ground of equity but it also metropolitan planning structure and these assists by bringing about development on will be discussed thoroughly with local gov­ blocks that were approved for subdivision ernment and interested groups over the next prior to 1973 and by hastening develop­ nine to twelve months. I have addressed ment in those subdivisions it minimizes the these matters with the board and have had risk of leapfrogging. a number of meetings with the Municipal The first attempt that the Government Association of Victoria; so a significant made was at a public meeting held at amount of work has already been done. The Sydenham, where a contribution of $200 Government would prefer to see the estab­ was proposed for occupiers of households lishment of co-operative regional groups of and a contribution of$2000 for vacant block local government to assist the State in the owners with a provision that, if the vacant consideration of regional issues and possi­ block owners built within a period nomi­ nated, they would have to pay only the $200 bly take a regional planning role. That is contribution of a person who had built on a certainly not being forced upon local gov­ block. ernment. It is a matter for local government to consider and it would be done on a vol­ The response from that public meeting untary basis. was overwhelmingly in favour of the differ­ ential notion. The proposal has been tested Staffing of any regional groups would be in other parts of Victoria with equally suc­ from the Ministry. The Government does cessful results and has met with the ap­ not wish to set up another sphere of Gov­ proval of the majority of household block ernment. The formal transfer is scheduled owners and vacant block owners in every to take place from 1 July 1985. scheme that has been tested in the past. On Questions without Notice 31 October 1984 COUNCIL 1091 the basis of equity, it is sensible and on the notice to the Leader of the House who is the basis of proper planning, the Government representative in this place of the Minister will continue to make that an option for of Education. It is a question that the Leader people owning land where a sewerage sys­ of the House may be able to answer without tem is to be provided. referring it to the Minister of Education be­ cause it relates to the reputation of the Gov­ COURTS SYSTEM ernment for efficient and effective The Hon. JOAN COXSEDGE (Mel­ management, or, possibly, Mrs Kirner can bourne West Province)-I ask the Attor­ assist because it is about school councils. ney-General whether he can inform the I ask the honourable gentleman to eluci­ House on the steps that have been taken, date an extraordinary statement by the other than the provision of electric lighting Minister of Education in his response to an and ballpoint pens, to introduce modem Economic and Budget Review Committee equipment into Victoria's courts system? report to Parliament on matters raised in The Hon. J. H. KENNAN (Attorney­ the Education Department by the Auditor­ General)-The honourable member is quite General. One of the recommendations was correct when she says that until recently the that an appropriate policy for occupancy Victorian court system was innocent of any arrangements of Education Department technological change in the twentieth cen­ property be developed-a little better man­ tury apart from the electric light bulb and agement in the Education Department than the ballpoint pen-quills may well be auc­ had been achieved. I shall quote what the tioned shortly, like the recent auction of old Minister of Education said. number plates! The PRESIDENT-Order! I invite Mr The Government has taken several steps Guest to put his question without notice; to ensure more modem technology is intro­ otherwise, I shall be required to refuse to duced. Indeed, it is only this year that the hear him. means of duplicating by the use of purple The Hon. J. V. C. GUEST-Unfortu­ ink and the old fordigraph machines has nately, the interjections are causing a cer­ been abandoned in favour of photocopiers tain amount of obstruction to me in getting and electric typewriters. By March next year, to the question. I simply wish to question the roof of the Supreme Court will be water­ the consequences of this statement: tight for the first time in living memory­ As part of the documentation associated with the another triumph for public works. It is an devolution of responsibility to schools a 175-page doc­ indication of the improved administration ument on Procedures for School Council Contracts is about what the Honourable Norman Lacy being printed for circulation to schools. was talking yesterday that was apparent to This document will be followed by others which cover him when Minister of the previous Govern­ all aspects of school council responsibility, including ment. occupancy of any properties under school council con­ In addition, the Government has been trol. mindful of the needs of jurors. They now The Hon. G. A. SGRO (Melbourne North have the advantage of colour television in Province)-On a point of order, as a mem­ the jury pool rooms where they are able to ber of the Economic and Budget Review entertain themselves while waiting for the Committee, I believe it is completely wrong call. The Government has provided for the for Mr Guest to read personal letters writ­ first time hand-held dictaphones to judges ten to the chairman of the committee. in the Supreme Court, and word processors are to be provided to the courts at the end The Hon. J. V. C. GUEST (Monash of this year. Further to these matters, the Province)-Mr President, I can answer that Government has a study under way for a quite simply. This document was tabled on computer service for the whole court 2 October 1984 by the Minister. administration. Can the Minister explain how school councils will be able to improve their man­ EDUCATION DEPARTMENT agement with that type of assistance from PROPERTIES the department? The Hon. J. V. C. GUEST (Monash The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Province)-I address a question without Planning and Environment)-I shall be 1092 COUNCIL 31 October 1984 Petition happy to pass on the question to the Minis­ staff of three economists and a number of ter. consultants, the work has been done in a way which the committee trusts the House PETITION and the public will find satisfactory. Harding Park, Geelong It will be found that the report-which is largely descriptive rather than evaluative­ The Hon. D. E. HENSHAW (Geelong Province) presented a petition from certain is also comparative in the sense that the citizens of Victoria praying that the House arrangements for superannuation for mem­ take appropriate steps to preserve Harding bers of Parliament, judges and Governors Park, Geelong, as a public reserve. He stated throughout Australia are compared so that that the petition was respectfully worded, in readers of the report will be able to form order, and bore 319 signatures. their own views. It was ordered that the petition be laid on The report contains a number of specific the table. recommendations that do not require spe­ cial mention now. It contains some recom­ ECONOMIC AND BUDGET REVIEW mendations about the Parliamentary COMMITTEE scheme which are not fundamental, but no recommendation of any significance relat­ Superannuation schemes ing to the Governor's or judges' pension The Hon. J. V. C. GUEST (Monash schemes. Province) presented the review and recom­ Consistently with the general proposi­ mendations of the Economic and Budget tions affirmed by the committee in earlier Review Committee for the Victorian Par­ reports, the final report contains some im­ liamentary superannuation scheme, the portant suggestions such as that a new judges' superannuation schemes, the Gov­ scheme might be a lump sum scheme and ernor's pension and other special superan­ that there should be a new scheme for mem­ nuation schemes, together with appendices, bers of Parliament. Also, the Government's a minority report, an addendum and min­ Bill relating to the commutation of pen­ utes of eVIdence. sions of members of Parliament and to The Hon. J. V. C. GUEST (Monash spouses' pensions in the case of members Province)-I move: commuting their pensions to a lump sum That they be laid on the table and that the report, has been commented on and analysed, and appendices, minority report and addendum be printed. recommendations have been made. In so doing, I wish to make one or two Finally, the most important aspect of the comments in explanation of the circum­ report is that it blazes a trail towards deter­ stances of the report. mination by one tribunal of total remuner­ The PRESIDENT-Order! I shall allow ation rather than just salary on the one hand Mr Guest to make one or two remarks about and superannuation on the other. Total re­ the circumstances surrounding the report. muneration should be regarded as one con­ However, I do not wish him to discuss the cept to be determined at the one time by a matter of the report. That can be dealt with single tribunal, and the report recommends at another time. that the tribunal should consider all matters The Hon. J. V. C. GUEST-Indeed. The of remuneration. report covers matters of some delicacy, one I should 'like to raise one final matter of should have thought. This is the final report procedure. The question of minority re­ of the committee in response to its terms of ports continues to cause some procedural reference concerning public sector superan­ difficulty. I have prepared a minority report nuation. It has, in some respects, been the which is presented as an addendum to the most difficult because part of the matter that main report as a result of a difference be­ was dealt with was Parliamentary superan­ tween the chairman of the committee and nuation, and naturally it was a matter of the Clerks of the Parliament over what is concern to the committee to know how far the appropriate procedure for including mi­ it should go in considering the matter in an nority reports. The matter was finally re­ evaluative rather than a descriptive way. solved by the committee's meeting and However, thanks to the assistance of the determining-not at my request but simply Social Development Committee 31 October 1984 COUNCIL 1093 as a way of resolving the issue-to have the I congratulate the chairman of the com­ minority report included as an addendum. mittee, Mr Graham Ernst, and members of It would appear that something has to be the sub-committee-Mesdames Baylor, sorted out definitively-probably, in the Dixon and Hogg and myself, and Messrs end, by legislation. I have to say that the Shell, Williams, Saltmarsh, Steggall and chairman's view that a report ought to be Wallace-on their work. I thank the Social an elucidation of a position taken by some­ Development Committee's staff headed by one who disagrees with the majority report the director of research, Dr Don Stewart, has a certain logic to it. Of course, that is a for their support and the quality of their restrictive interpretation and was not the work. They were assisted by the contribu­ view that I took. tion of the many hearings of the committee I am not suggesting that the matter should throughout the State and the work of the be argued on this motion, but I draw it to Aboriginal task force consultancy team. your attention, Mr President, as you are one The motion was agreed to. of those who are responsible for the general On the motion of the Hon. HADDON oversight of Parliamentary committees. STOREY (East Yarra Province), it was or­ The motion was agreed to. dered that the report be taken into consid­ The Hon. G. P. CONNARD (Higin­ eration on the next day of meeting. botham Province)-I seek your guidance, Mr President. Apropos of the motion and PAPERS the report, I point out that, as the co-author The following papers, pursuant to the di­ of a minority report, I desired to make some rections of several Acts ofParliament, were small contribution to the discussion. laid on the table by the Clerk: The PRESIDENT-Order! I suggest that Community Welfare Services Department-Report the honourable member move a motion that and financial statements for the year 1983-84. the minority report, the appendices and ad­ Conservation, Forests and Lands Department-Re­ dendum be taken into consideration later port and financial statements for the year 1983-84. this day. Education-Report of the State Board of Education The Hon. G. P. CONNARD-I move: for the year 1983-84. That the report be taken into consideration later this Freedom of Information Act 1982-Report on op­ day. eration for the year 1983-84. The motion was agreed to. Land Act 1958-Resumption ofland at South Mel­ bourne for the erection of a Coroner's Court and Mor­ SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT tuary complex-Certificate of the Attorney-General. COMMITTEE Leo Cussen Institute for Continuing Legal Educa­ tion-Report for the year 1983. Aboriginal compensation Premier and Cabinet Department-Report and fi­ The Hon. J. E. KIRNER (Melbourne nancial statements for the year 1983-84. West Province) presented a report from the On the motion of the Hon. HAD DON Social Development Committee upon com­ STOREY (East Yarra Province), it was or­ pensation for dispossession and dispersal of dered that the reports be taken into consid­ the Aboriginal people, together with ap­ eration later this day. pendices and minutes of evidence. The Hon. J. E. KIRNER (Melbourne VOLUNTARY COMMUNITY West Province)-I move: SERVICE That they be laid on the table and that the report and The debate (adjourned from October 24) appendices be printed. was resumed on the motion of the Hon. In presenting the report, may I say that I Robert Lawson (Higinbotham Province): believe it is an historic report in the sense That this House records its conviction that full en­ that it presents a unanimous, all-party view couragement and support for voluntary effort and of how land claims and compensation, if achievement will better serve the Victorian commu­ they are to be introduced, should be dealt nity than will reliance on increasing Government ac­ with in this State in a manner consistent tivities and intrusion. with the principle of Aboriginal self-deter­ The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for mination. Minerals and Energy)-I desire to show that 1094 COUNCIL 31 October 1984 Voluntary Community Service

Mr Lawson has failed to demonstrate that ergy Action Group, which was in the past the policy of the Government has in any never funded. The group is an umbrella or­ way impeded the development of voluntary ganization made up of a diverse group of activities in the State. I also want to show representatives from the Victorian Council that the Government not only fully sup­ of Social Service to the Salvation Army. It ports voluntary activities but also that Mr was established in recognition of the fact Lawson has some misunderstandings about that energy bills were becoming an increas­ the relationship between voluntary activi­ ing proportion of the household budget. The ties and the bureaucracy. The matter is not Government recognized not only the need an either/or situation; it is a more sensitive to provide direct funding to the Energy Ac­ issue about developing a relationship be­ tion Group but also the need to fund other tween voluntary activities and bureaucracy, organizations, including the Combined an issue which must be monitored closely. Pensioners Association and voluntary or­ At page 856 of Hansard, Mr Lawson re­ ganizations that assist the Energy Action ferred to the East Bentleigh Community Group in proposing suggestions for policy Health Centre. He indicated that in the past programmes that might be considered ap­ three years voluntary activity in the electo­ propriate by special interest groups. rate he represents had been on the increase The Hon. H. G. Baylor-You have not and that the number of volunteers in the listened to them! community health area had been on the in­ The Hon. D. R. WHITE-This Govern­ crease. Throughout Mr Lawson's contribu­ ment, unlike any previous State Govern­ tion he provided evidence which reinforced ment, has introduced energy concessions in an increase in voluntary activity rather than recognition of the views of the Energy Ac­ the reverse. The Government respects vol­ tion Group. It has introduced a 20 per cent untary agencies for their experience. The concession on electricity heating bills-a 20 Government respects the introduction of per cent concession on two winter heating any new programme being embarked upon bills. Never before has that been intro­ by a Government of either political persua­ duced. sion. The Hon. H. G. Baylor-But they are dis­ Often voluntary agencies are the first port satisfied. of call when a Government is developing a The Hon. D. R. WHITE-The Energy policy that it wishes to implement. The Action Group never existed under the pre­ Government respects and accepts that vol­ vious Administration. The Government untary agencies have a knowledge of com­ also introduced an easy method of paying munity needs and respects their skills and energy bills. Almost 250 people a day are sensitivity in their delivery of services; as registered at the agencies to use the easy Mrs Kirner said, for their potential in ad­ method of payment. In response to repre­ vocacy; for their potential for innovation; sentations received by the Energy Action and, as many honourable members have Group, the Government has also intro­ said, for their financial contribution. duced the Home Energy Advice Service, It must be understood that the Govern­ which has been extremely successful and ment believes the matter is not an either/or which is assisted by Community Employ­ proposition; it is not a matter of the bu­ ment Programme funding. The service not reaucracy versus the voluntary sector. More only provides information and advice to often than not when seeking to develop a holders of a Commonwealth health card but policy, the Government will seek the assist­ also has provided a grant for insulation ance of the voluntary sector and often the services. ' bureaucracy may try to determine how best The Government has a representative of it can operate to assist, to expand and to community groups on the board of the State help develop the continuing programmes of Electricity Commission. In the past no con­ the voluntary sector. Between bureaucracy sumer representation existed on the board; and the voluntary sector there should be a the Government chose a financial counsel­ continuing development of a constructive, lor from the Richmond/Collingwood area ongoing relationship. to be a part-time commissioner on the com­ I take this opportunity of discussing one mission. That representative chaired the of the programmes in my portfolio, the En- Customer Policy Implementation Commit- Voluntary Community Service 31 October 1984 COUNCIL 1095 tee. In addition to the implementation of tions or institutions rendering or proposing those services and the easy payment of bills, to render welfare services to the commu­ the Government also provided for a far nity, $4·2 million; Out of School Hours more sensitive disconnection policy and the Programme-Grants to Schools and Orga­ abolition of security deposits. nizations, $500000; School Vacation Care It is wrong to claim that the Government Programme-Grants, $600 000; Family has not responded to the requests of volun­ Supportive Services-Expenses $2·1 mil­ tary groups; it has gone out of its way­ lion; Community Health Projects-Wom­ particularly in my portfolio-to implement en's Refuges-Operating costs, $1·9 million; initiatives and policies never previously in­ Emergency accommodation, housing refer­ troduced. The Government, however, has ral and financial counselling services, not met all the demands of those special $887000; Child Care Programme-Wom­ interest groups but has listened to their ad­ en's Refuges, $400 000; Child Care Pro­ vice when developing a policy. gramme-Grants $140000; and Women's The Hon. H. G. Baylor-You put the Emergency Services Programme, $1·2 mil­ costs of energy up so high that you had to! lion. The Hon. D. R. WHITE-As with any Those allocations represent a few exam­ interest groups, whether they be profes­ ples of a point that the Minister for Com­ sional organizations, trade unions or vol­ munity Welfare Services has often made: untary groups, it is often the case, as Mrs That there is extensive Government contri­ Baylor would well know after her experi­ bution to voluntary groups throughout the ence under the previous Administration, community. As recently as 3 October, the that it is not always possible to meet all the Minister indicated in a press release that the demands of all interest groups. Certainly, Department of Community Welfare Serv­ the demands met and the innovations im­ ices provides some $25 million annually to plemented by this Government were never approximately 2000 community groups, previously introduced. Mrs Kirner also re­ which represents not 2 per cent but more ferred to the contributions of voluntary than one third of the community welfare groups in a number of specific areas. She services budget, excluding the $73·5 million mentioned at some length the Victorian allocated for concessions to pensioners and Federation of State Schools Mothers Clubs. beneficiaries. The contributions are exten­ The Government has also suggested and is sive. strongly of the view that where Govern­ ment funding has been provided in some It is also true, and reinforces the point form to voluntary groups, there should be that I made earlier, that the Government accountability. supports a continuing role for both the Government and non-Government sectors. During his contribution, Mr Lawson There has been a substantial expansion of made great play of community welfare serv­ funding for non-Government organizations ice funds. At page 856 of H ansard he is such as women's refuges, the Children's recorded as saying: Protection Society, regional foster care Less than 2 per cent of the community welfare serv­ agencies and other services. ices funds in the current Budget went towards assisting In respect of the Children's Protection volunteer services. Society, which Mr Lawson raised as a spe­ The allocation to community welfare serv­ cific example of concern, it should be noted ices in the' 1984-85 Budget was $174·5 mil­ that, at the request of the society, the Gov­ lion. In the break-up of the allocation, more ernment has agreed to transfer responsi­ than $73·5 million was allocated for direct bility for apprehension functions from the concessions to pensioners and beneficiaries. society to Government offices. The transfer It should also be pointed out that there is is to be staged over the next twelve months. an extensive range of programmes directed The society will continue to have a role in to voluntary groups. I ask the House to take the prevention of child maltreatment, but note of the following items under commu­ the extent of the role is still subject to con­ nity welfare services in Budget Paper No. 3: sideration. In recognition of that, the Gov­ Family and Community Services-Ex­ ernment has substantially increased penses and Grants to persons, organiza- resources for the society. 1096 COUNCIL 31 October 1984 Voluntary Community Service

In February 1983, the Minister for Com­ However, he has not shown from either his munity Welfare Services announced that the arguments or from the cases he has raised department would assume responsibility for that there is any evidence to suggest that the the planning and development of probation Government is embarking on any other services. Under the arrangements instituted course than one of support for voluntary by the previous Administration, honorary agencies in recognition of their contribution probation officers were expected to organize in the past and the important role they will their own trainin~ and recruitment. That continue to play in the future. led to major defiCIencies in the number of The second point Mr Lawson made in probation officers in some regions. That was the motion is that full support for voluntary not the fault of the probation officers, but efforts will better serve the Victorian com­ was due to the unwillingness of the then munity than will the reliance on increasing Government to take full responsibility for Government activity. The Government statutory services. contends that Mr Lawson has been unable Most supervision by probation officers to demonstrate that the Government has continues to be -carried out by honorary embarked on a course designed to be intru­ probation officers, and the Government ap­ sive or take over the activities of voluntary preciates the excellent work which they per­ agencies. In respect of those specific areas form. New arrangements will mean that in which the Government has been in­ administrative and planning work will be volved in developing new policies, they have undertaken, more appropriately, by full­ been designed to do nothing other than to time staff. That is another example of where assist in developing the partnership on a there is an expectation that, rather than a sensitive basis between the bureaucracy and bureaucratic takeover, there should be sup­ the voluntary agencies so that the agencies port from the Department of Community can continue to improve the quality of serv­ Welfare Services for honourary probation ices that they provide with the assistance of officers, just as there has been, is and will government. They are not in any way de­ continue to be for the Children's Protection signed to take over the activities of volun­ Society. tary agencies except insofar as some activity The motion moved by Mr Lawson should may have developed in a way that it is gen­ be considered in two parts. The first part erally recognized that some small part of reflects on the fact that the House records the activity may better be undertaken by its conviction of full encouragement and public servants in respect of training, such support for voluntary efforts and achieve­ as the training of probation officers. How­ ment. It refers to the contribution that the ever, the policies have not been designed to voluntary section of the community makes be part of a programme to take over the role and how it serves the Victorian commu­ of probation officers. nity. The Government does not take issue The Government believes, for the rea­ with any aspect of that part of the motion. sons I have expressed, that Mr Lawson has Not only do voluntary services and agen­ not developed a considered case to demon­ cies throughout the State make an outstand­ strate that the Government is embarking on ing contribution in the terms that I the course that he suggests. There is signifi­ expressed-that the Government respects cant evidence to demonstrate the contrary, the voluntary agencies for their experience, that is, the extent to which the Government knowledge of community needs, their skills, has embraced and supported voluntary sensitivity, potential for advocacy and in­ agencies. The Government is not embark­ novation and for their financial contribu­ ing on a course to intrude into the activities tion-but the Government contends that of voluntary agencies, but, rather, is em­ Mr Lawson has provided no evidence of barking on· a .course to assist and support substance to show that the Government has voluntary agencies in improving the quality done anything other than to try to assist of services they deliver. It is for those rea­ voluntary agencies in this State. sons that the Government believes the sec­ In respect of any cases that Mr Lawson ond part of the motion is not valid; it has may wish to bring forward about the level not been demonstrated and should not be of funding for specific agencies or groups, supported. the Government looks forward to dealing The Hon. A. J. HUNT (South Eastern with the merits of any case presented to it. Province)-From the remarks of the Min- Voluntary Community Service 31 October 1984 COUNCIL 1097 ister for Minerals and Energy last week, the ance that the volunteer gives both to indi­ Opposition believed he was proposing to vidual people and to the community as a move an amendment, but he has not sought whole. He pointed out that the volunteer to do so. The motion, therefore, stands or helps to keep down costs and raises the level falls as a whole. both of true charity, in the best sense of the The motion really is about two differing word, and of community concern. He told attitudes to the role of government. The us that this process strengthens the fabric of motion is about the fact that the Labor gov­ the community and assists in making it a ernment has faith in the efficacy of big Gov­ better place in which to live. It also ernment in providing jobs and services for strengthens and serves the individual who everyone. The Opposition starts from a participates in the process. They are all very quite different perspective and a basically sound principles. different philosophy. I shall put the propo­ Mrs Baylor pointed out that the volun­ sitions which stand as the basis of our teer groups and community groups are close thinking. We believe government should be to people and problems, and understand minimum, not maximum. We believe every their real needs and, as a result, become the effort ought to be taken to stop the applica­ innovators who provide new services to tion of Parkinson's law, which implies a meet those needs. She pointed out that peo­ burgeoning growth of the public sector. ple who understand those needs at the grass­ That growth has occurred under this roots levels can provide a tremendous con­ Government with an increase of 15 000 tribution to the development of policy. Fur­ people on the public pay-roll in the past two thermore, they deliver services with a and a half years. The increase took place at humanity and sensitivity that Government a time when support for volunteer agencies has seldom achieved, and with a real re­ had been reduced in many areas. It is an sponsiveness to the differences that exist increase that took place at a tittle when or­ from place to place and from individual to ganizations providing services to people had individual. She pointed out further that the suffered funding cuts while the numbers in volunteer agencies complement the serv­ Government administration have in­ ices provided by government, and help peo­ creased. ple to find identity and purpose, as well as The Opposition believes that the Gov­ driving the welfare dollar further. ernment should generally confine itself to Mr Hayward spoke of the flexibility essential activities which people cannot rea­ available through using individual com­ sonably be expected to undertake for them­ munity groups and volunteer organizations selves. We believe that government should and associations to assist the community, encourage and support self-reliance and in­ and of the caring nature and cost effective­ dividual achievement and this should be ness of their services. He spoke too about achieved through the sorts of programmes the way in which the growth of government which provide help to self-help, rather than could be curbed by using volunteer agencies government doing it all. as contractors. The Opposition believes in support for Mr Storey pointed out what occurs over­ the volunteer and the spirit ofvolunteerism seas in North America and British Colum­ as a fundamental basis of our community. bia in doing precisely that. Mr Reid dealt Most of all, the Opposition rejects the no­ with the Country Fire Authority, whose tion that Big Brother knows best. Big volunteer services have been under threat Brother does not know best and Big Brother from this Government. He pointed out the is seldom as sensitive as community groups service the authority provides and the cost and volunteer agencies in meeting needs. that would be incurred if a paid country fire Big Brother often knows far less than the service were substituted in place of the work individual who should be left, so far as of those volunteers. practicable, to make his or her own deci­ During the debate examples were given sions. of lessening help for some of the volunteer Mr Lawson made several simple propo­ activities and of cases where individuals sitions that every member of this party were told that they could continue in the would support. He said that the volunteer service they were providing only if they went is of enormous value because of the assist- on the pay-roll. This is an attitude which 1098 COUNCIL 31 October 1984 Voluntary Community Service seems to suggest that Government can do it leads me to wonder about the bona fides of all and that the paid operator is better than the group. the person who volunteers his or her serv­ The Minister for Minerals and Energy ices. questioned my estimate of the amount of In the motion Mr Lawson has shown­ the welfare vote that was going towards vol­ and the support speakers have reinforced­ unteer groups. He mentioned concessions that there is an attitude which treats Gov­ for pensioners, but pensioners are not vol­ ernment activity as the preferred course. unteers. This Government pays lip service to sup­ The Hon. D. R. White-I did not suggest port for the volunteers, yet it prefers Gov­ they were. ernment activity wherever practicable. The The Hon. ROBERT LAWSON-The reverse ought to be true. Minister may have put it to one side, but he I agree with the Minister for Minerals and did mention concessions to pensioners. Energy that the two parts of the motion are The Hon. D. R. White-With a view to not necessarily alternatives, but what Mr putting it to one side. Lawson has pointed out is that the conduct of the Government has been to make them The Hon. ROBERT LAWSON-Very such. The attitude has been to prefer bur­ good. The Minister questioned my estimate geoning Government activity to reliance on of the amount of the welfare vote going to individuals, to help to self-help, to incen­ volunteer groups. tives for achievement and to support for the The point I make is that many of the volunteer and the voluntary organizations. groups that the Minister mentioned also This is a fundamental difference between have paid officials in their ranks. Therefore, the approaches of the Labor Government it is somewhat doubtful whether we can es­ and of the Opposition. I urge the House to timate correctly the amount going to them support Mr Lawson's motion. as voluntary groups. I maintain that my es­ The Hon. ROBERT LA WSON (Higin­ timate of the amount received by voluntary botham Province)-I made a number of groups is closer to the truth than that of the statements during my original contribution Minister. to the debate and I do not recoil from any­ The Minister also mentioned, among thing I said, particularly as no speakers have other things, the Children's Protection So­ rebutted my remarks. The Minister for ciety. As I have stated earlier I am chairman Minerals and Energy has failed in the main of the southern suburbs section of the soci­ thrust of his argument and has not proved ety, and, therefore, know a little about it. in any sense that what members of the Op­ The Minister said that the society has re­ position have said is not true with respect quested that certain functions be taken from to Opposition policy on volunteerism and it and handed over to the Government. The the policy of the Government on volunteer­ society took this action very reluctantly and ism. under a great deal of pressure from the State The Minister mentioned a number of Government. It was quite happy to con­ groups including the Energy Action Group, tinue its historic role-that is, looking after which is run as a volunteer group by a lady the welfare of children-but now, part of its called Ms Lyn Deasey. I have grave doubts function is being taken away from it, and about that group because some time ago I the society is at a loss to know what its new wrote to Ms Deasey suggesting that one of role might be. The voluntary agencies, one the ways in which energy charges could be of which I represent here, are having their reduced would be for the Government to functions taken away and handed over to reduce the tax component of gas, electricity paid professionals. The Opposition and I and other utility bills. To date I have not consider this to be a retrograde step in re­ received a reply to my letter, nor have I seen spect to welfare of all kinds. any reference to it in the newsletter pub­ Mention has also been made of the Coun­ lished by the Energy Action Group. My sug­ try Fire Authority, which, as all honourable gestion would be one ofthe most convenient members know, is operated by volunteers. ways of lowering energy charges to pen­ No one knows more than you, Mr Deputy sioner groups as well as all consumers. This President, of the voluntary nature of the important point has not been raised, which authority and of the valuable work also un- Lotteries Gaming and Betting Bill 31 October 1984 COUNCIL 1099 dertaken by the State Emergency Service, This is the great issue that the Opposition another group of volunteers who look to the takes with the Labor Party in this debate. In Government for support. They need assist­ raising this matter in this place, we believe ance because they provide a vital unpaid our arguments are firmly grounded on com­ service to the State. These bodies spring into mon sense and we are acting in the best life, as it were, in a state of emergency when interests of the people in Victoria. We as­ the State is in urgent need of trained assist­ sure the people ofVictori~, that, if a Liberal ance. They serve the public interest in all Party Government is returned after the next sorts of ways without any question of ma­ election, volunteer services will be greatly terial reward. expanded very much to the benefit of the As honourable members know, an at­ State. tempt was made to amalgamate the Coun­ The motion was agreed to. try Fire Authority and the Metropolitan Fire Brigade, and this would have resulted in the LOTTERIES GAMING AND BETTING voluntary nature of the authority changing (GAMING MACHINES) BILL beyond recognition. We would no longer The debate (adjourned from the previous have had the volunteer service with which day) on the motion of the Hon. D. E. Kent we are now familiar and which has served (Minister of Agriculture) for the second the people of Victoria. reading of this Bill was resumed. The debate in which honourable mem­ The Hon. D. M. EVANS (North Eastern bers are now taking part is, in essence, a Province)-The National Party has no ob­ question of the difference between the phi­ jection to the passage of this measure, as it losophy of the Labor Party and the Liberal recognizes that the machines referred to in Party. The Opposition believes there should the second-reading notes are a very close be less Government interference in the af­ approximation of poker machines. There are fairs of the State and that there should be some differences, of course, and the jingle more reliance on volunteer services. If my of coins is not quite so apparent. I am not party is returned to office after the next State sure that the so-called pinball machines are election, greater emphasis will be placed on quite as addiction forming to housewives, volunteerism. Despite what the Minister has who might put their grocery money through had to say, I believe the volunteer services them, as are poker machines. No doubt they are under threat in Victoria, and it is only a have some addictive fancy for People, as do matter of time before they are eventually many of the other gambling outlets within replaced by paid professionals in pursuance the community, including the Totalizator of Labor Party policy. Agency Board, Tattslotto, bingo and many I point out to the House that, since the others. Labor Party came to power in this State, the The National Party believes it is not un­ community welfare services vote has in­ reasonable to provide this sort oCrestriction creased year by year, far out ofline with the because of the fascination these machines inflation rate and the consumer price index. held for children and the possibility that it I should be interested to know whether in may hook them in and involve them in a general recipients of these services are really gambling situation at a much earlier age than any better off than they were under the for­ they should be involved and, perhaps, be­ mer Liberal Party Government. Can we fore they are able to handle it with maturity. honestly say that the welfare of the poor, Therefore, the National Party has no objec­ the underprivileged and the disadvantaged tion to the passage of the measure. has really improved in proportion to the The motion was agreed to. amount of money that has been poured into The Bill was read a second time, and welfare services? Instead the welfare service passed through its remaining stages. industry has emerged and grown up since the Labor Party came to office, and my fear, LOTTERIES GAMING AND BETTING which I expressed during my original re­ (AMENDMENT) BILL (No. 2) marks on this matter, is that the welfare The debate (adjourned from the previous vote is not going to the people who need it; day) on the motion of the Hon. D. R. White instead, it is going towards feeding the in­ (Minister for Minerals and Energy) for the dustry itself. second reading of this Bill was resumed. 1100 COUNCIL 31 October 1984 Lotteries Gaming and Betting Bill

The Hon. D. M. EVANS (North Eastern I am informed, as in fact the press has Province)-The National Party agrees to the informed everyone, that the report of the passage of this measure. It is an interesting Costigan inquiry into several very serious piece of proposed legislation, particularly in matters in the Australian community is due the concept that it draws some parallel be­ to be tabled shortly in the Victorian Parlia­ tween the operations of the futures mar­ ment. There has been much speculation, ket-and perhaps by the by, with the some of which appears to be well informed, operations of stock exchanges throughout which indicates that the report shows that the world-and gaming and betting. some very undesirable practices are occur­ ring in the community and that those prac­ People in the community will recognize tices permeate the whole of the community that these operations tend to have a flavour structure, including the business world. of gaming and betting and that there is somewhat of a risk attached to that form of If ever there were an underlying need for commercial operation. To extend it further, a provision such as paragraph (a) (i) in leg­ I am inclined to think that all private enter­ islation, I believe the Costigan report will prise and, indeed, life, is somewhat of a lot­ provide that reason. At the same time, it tery. One has to take a risk and take a will provide a very real warning of the diffi­ culty of enforcing that paragraph and of chance. An old saying in the commercial meeting its stringent requirements. The Na­ world is that if one wants to accumulate one tional Party. supports the very reasonable has to speculate, or, putting it differently, and sensible Bill. ~~You have to speculate to accumulate". The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East The Bill draws some additional protec­ Yarra Province)-For years it has been tion for those people who operate in a gen­ thought by many people that anyone who uine business sense to hedge against possible had anything to do with the stock exchange major fluctuations on commodities and or buying or selling of shares or dealing with other prices. It brings the Victorian legisla­ things which may occur in the future cer­ tion much more into line with the require­ tainly were engaging in gambling, and that ments that need to be met if Melbourne is is so, as indicated by the fact that, to intro­ to become a centre for the operation of a duce a futures exchange in Victoria, it is futures market and to compete with the necessary to amend the Lotteries Gaming Sydney market. and Betting Act. This is because when one I am interested in clause 4 which sets out deals in matters which mayor may not oc­ the responsibilities and the ability of the cur in the future one does not know what Treasurer to license futures exchanges and the outcome may be, so it has all the effects to allow them to operate under the terms of gambling, that is, investing a sum of and conditions of the Lotteries Gaming and money on what may happen in the future Betting Act. Particularly, I am interested in or what may not happen in the future where proposed section 16 (2) (a) (i) whereby the one may make a loss or a gain. rules under which a body corporate may be The notion that a futures exchange should licensed by the Treasurer provide for the operate in Victoria has the support of the exclusion from membership of persons who Opposition. It is true that concern is ex­ are not of good character and high business pressed about the potential for losses which integrity. It is an important phrase. can occur in such exchanges and it is true It is a short rule but it has a number of that it will add to the opportunity of people most important conditions. Not only does making investments which may turn out to it require that high business integrity and be bad investments. Nonetheless, the op­ good character be part of those persons who portunity ought to exist and, since there are are members of a body corporate but also it already such exchanges in Australia, Vic­ must include and allow for the necessity toria ought to be able to play its part. that those who may be judged not to have The Bill provides that operating such an the necessary character and integrity have exchange is not prohibited by the Lotteries some right of appeal in case they have been Gaming and Betting Act and provides for incorrectly judged. It imposes a real respon­ the Treasurer to be able to approve a body sibility to ensure that those who are li­ corporate as a futures exchange if the Treas­ censed carry those necessary characteristics. urer is satisfied on a number of criteria, in- Constitution (Council Vacancies) Bill 31 October 1984 COUNCIL 1101 cluding such matters as the character and The real question in people's minds is as integrity of the people concerned in operat­ to the date of the election. In recent weeks ing the body corporate. persistent rumours have come from sources These are sensible provisions and intro­ within the Labor Party that the date is to be duce the element of discretion and judg­ fixed at 16 February or, at least, that date is ment which is not always easy to apply, but under active consideration at the moment. it is necessary for that judgment to be made I t would be a somewhat cynical approach in an area which involves such speculative to hold the campaign over the holiday per­ activity. One can only hope that a sound iod when it would be likely to have least futures market commences to operate in impact and when the public would be least Melbourne and that it will be of benefit to interested in politics. the State. Honourable members interjecting. The motion was agreed to. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (the Hon. The Bill was read a second time. K. I. M. Wright)-Order! I am sure the The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Leader of the Opposition requires no assist­ Minerals and Energy)-By leave, I move: ance. I invite him to continue uninter­ rupted. That this Bill be now read a third time. The Hon. A. J. HUNT-I do not need I thank members of the Opposition and the assistance and I would appreciate the op­ National Party for their support of the portunity of being heard. I was saying, be­ measure. fore I was interrupted for the fifteenth time, The motion was agreed to, and the Bill that it would be a cynical exercise to hold was read a third time. the election at a time when the campaign would be little noticed by the public. It CONSTITUTION (COUNCIL would indicate that the Government did not VACANCIES) BILL want to have a campaign of which people would take notice because it had something The debate (adjourned from the previous to fear. I am sure the public does not want day) on the motion of the Hon. J. H. Ken­ to be bedevilled with election campaigns nan (Attorney-General) for the second both before and immediately after the reading of this Bill was resumed. Christmas holiday break, and it would cer­ The Hon. A. J. HUNT (South Eastern tainly appreciate it if a reasonable lapse of Province)-This is a sensible Bill and I con­ time occurred between the Federal and State gratulate the Government on introducing elections. We support the Bill. it. It provides a clear, simple and equitable The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western solution to a problem which would other­ Province)-The ultimate outcome of this wise cause difficulty and uncertainty for move is on the heads of Liberal Party mem­ many electors. It is obvious that, whatever bers. I have some major concerns about the result of the next general election, there what they have done. They have allowed will be at least four vacancies in this House, four Legislative Council members, who are which will create the need for by-elections, sitting members, to contest Assembly seats, and it would be ridiculous to hold by-elec­ and that will jeopardize the possibility of tions for a very short period only weeks the Liberal Party holding the seats in this after a general election. House. The course the Government has taken is It goes further than that. The move by the to provide that, in the event of by-elections Liberal Party could upset the balance of this occurring as a result of candidates contest­ House if this Bill is passed. Present mem­ ing seats in another place at the next general bers were elected until 14 July 1985. They election, the vacancies will be filled by per­ would normally have expected to serve un­ sons elected to fill the seats vacated in the til that date. If an election is held in Febru­ longer term. ary, the new Legislative Council will not That is obviously a sensible solution and take effect until 14 July and those members we support it. It will avoid confusion for whose seats become vacant are elected until voters and will bring about a result that is then. New members do not come in until generally acknowledged to be reasonable after that time. This Bill has a further effect. and fair. The new boundaries will be contested at the

Session 1984-41 1102 COUNCIL 31 October 1984 Extractive Industries (Amendment) Bill general election, whether it be in February of the general election. They will take their or whenever, and new members will take seats on that day instead, of 14 July. their seat.s immediately. The balance of the . We support the Bill a little reluctantly and House ~ll be changed as from the date of . want to make it quite clear that it is on the the election, not from 14 July. heads of the Liberal Party if this signifi- I shall spell out to the House what this cantly affects the balance of this House for could mean. The position of the parties in that three or four-month period next year. this House could be greatly affected by this The motion for the second reading of the move. Bill was agreed to by an absolute majority The Hon. J. H. Kennan-Why? As a re- of the whole number of the members of the suIt of an election? House. The Hon. B. P. DUNN-Ijust explained The Bill was read a second time and, by it to you. leav~, the House proceeded to the third The Hon. J. H. Kennan-I did not un- reading. . .. derstand it. As the result of an election it The motion for the third reading of the could be changed? What is wrong with th~t? Bi~l having been carried by an absolute maj- The Hon. B. P. DUNN-The seats would onty of the whole I:lumber of the ~em?ers be held by the existing incumbents until of the House, the Bill was read a third tIme. after 14 JUly. If the Liberal Party does not EXTRACTIVE INDUSTRIES win all of those four seats on the new (AMENDMENT) BILL boundaries, the balance of the House will be affected. It is on the heads of members of The debate (adjourned from the previous the Liberal Party if this move allows the day) on the motion of the Hon. D. R. White Labor Party to have control of this House (Minister for Minerals and Energy) for the for three or four months, which it would second reading of this Bill was resumed. normally not have had. The sitting member The Hon. D. G. CROZIER (Western has a much better chance of holding his or Province)-Any measure that aims to im­ her seat. We all know that with the swinging prove Government administration de­ seat it is an obvious advantage to have the serves careful consideration and, in normal sitting member contest the seat. circumstances, the support of all parties. The The strategy of the Liberal Party is a little Bill before the House is designed to do just difficult to understand when the battle at that, and I commend the Government for the next election is not for just the Legisla­ bringing the measure forward, even if it is tive Assembly; it is a battle as to who con­ after a considerable period. The adminis­ tration of extractive industries has room for trols this House, and it will be a tight contest. improvement and that is not seriously in When the Liberal Party made the dec~ doubt. I illustrate that point by referring to sion to allow four of its members to contest the House, particularly to the Minister for Assembly seats, we were faced with the Minerals and Energy, a short case history prospect of how to overcome the obvious that came to my notice recently concerning difficulty relating to by-elections. Members an application by Lagill and Illag Nomi­ of the National Party have examined this nees, two companies of which Mr Michael and there is no way out other than what is Galli is a principal. In June 1983, these two proposed because the people would have to companies applied for an extractive indus­ go back to by-elections soon after the gen­ try licence, application 1220, with a view to eral election-that is one option-or the by­ quarrying basalt at Kilmore East. The com­ election could be held on the same day as panies are very experienced quarry opera­ the· general election when there would be tors, as many honourable members would two province candidates, one on the new know. boundaries and one on the old. That situa­ The operation involved $2·5 million of tion would be absolutely hopeless. initial investment with a potential employ­ Not many alternatives exist and this is ment of between 40 and 50 people. Mr Galli basically the only one that is suitable. It informs me that when the operation gets means that the new members of the Legis­ under way the price of aggregate to the Road lative Council to fill these vacancies will be Construction Authority and other potential elected on the new boundaries on the date clients is likely to be reduced substantially, Extractive Industries (Amendment) Bill 31 October 1984 COUNCIL 1103

perhaps by $2 a tonne. The reason he says (b) may appoint such other persons as the Minister is that about 90 per cent of the aggregate thinks fit- supplied to the metropolitan area is cur­ to be advisers to the Advisory Committee. rently provided by the "big three" in the quarrying business. Competition from an­ The advisory committee set up by the pre­ other substantial quarry operation would vious Government, as the Minister set out clearly be beneficial. However, the point I in his second-reading speech, has worked am making is that in spite of the fact that fairly well and, to a large extent, very well. the application was lodged in June 1983, it A case exists, however, for the Extractive has still not been determined. As the Min­ Industries Council to be represented ex of ister for Minerals and Energy would know, ficio on the advisory committee. I am not the holding arrangements in such circum­ entirely happy about the provision in clause stances cannot simply be prolonged for ever. 26 whereby extractive industry operators or There is a commercial consideration re­ their nominees shall be permanent advisers gardless of whether it is private or public to the committee. I am not sure that that land. Ifit is private land, there is usually an mechanism will work that well, but were option to proceed, which is constrained by the Extractive Industries Council invited to the time frame, and if that time frame is have a part in it or be permanently repre­ exceeded, negotiations have to be recomm­ sented on the advisory committee, I believe enced. Quite apart from that, investment that would be more satisfactory. decisions of this order are not assisted by With those comments, I reiterate that the inordinate delays. Opposition welcomes the Bill and wishes it I mention the case not in criticism of the a speedy passage. Bill or, indeed, in criticism of the Minister The motion was agreed to. for Minerals and Energy, but to illustrate The Bill was read a second time. again, from a case history of some relevance and importance, that there is need for The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for streamlining. I invite the Minister to take Minerals and Energy)-By leave, I move: on board the summary of that situation of That this Bill be now read a third time. Lagill and Illag Nominees, with a view to In so doing, I indicate to Mr Crozier that doing what he can to expedite the process the Government has taken note of the case of approval. It is a straightforward case and it is clear that substantial benefits would not in respect to Mr Galli and it will examine only flow to the local area, but also to the the merits of that case and will provide him recipients and many of the customers. Some with a response in due course. of the customers will be Government au­ The Hon. D. G. CROZIER (Western thorities, the principal one among them Province)-I thank the Minister for that as­ being the Road Construction Authority. I surance, and also at this stage of the debate, hope this matter is taken on board on its I direct his attention to one word in clause merits and is rationally and speedily han­ 7 of the Bill where, for section 8A of the dled. principal Act, there shall be substituted the The Opposition supports the Bill. It is following section. Proposed new section 8A entirely rational that the Minister for Min­ (6) (a) reads as follows: erals and Energy should have certain addi­ (6) The Minister shall not grant a new lease or lic­ tional powers, and the Opposition agrees ence under sub-section (5)- with the amendment proposed to clause 16 (a) unless he is satisfied that the owner and the as being reasonable, as is the provision for Minister for the time being administering the enlarging the appeal mechanisms to the Land Act 1958 have consented to the land being Planning Appeals Board and encompassing leased or licensed for the period of the new lease appeals under the Extractive Industries or licence; (Amendment) Bill. I seek the Minister's advice on whether the Proposed sub-section (SA) of section 43 word "and" should be "or". I cannot see states: where the Minister for Conservation, For­ "(SA) The Minister- ests and Lands, for the time being adminis­ (a) shall appoint a person representing the extrac­ tering the Land Act 1958, should be required tive industry operators in Victoria; and to give a sanction on any but public land. 1104 COUNCIL 31 October 1984 Firearms (General Amendment) Bill

Perhaps it is an editorial mistake, but I am right given within the Constitution of the interested to hear the Minister's response. United States of America to citizens to bear The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (the Hon. arms for their protection created problems K. I. M. Wright)-Order! I do not want the in that great nation because of that one fun­ honourable member to develop the matter damental point. at this stage. It appears to me, not being an expert on American affairs, that that specific clause in The Hon. D. G. CROZIER-I seek the the Constitution, which perhaps was appro­ Minister's response as to the interpretation priate in 1776, is no longer appropriate in of that sub-section. 1984. I would not wish to see such a provi­ The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for sion provided in the Australian or Victo­ Minerals and Energy) (By leave)-I thank rian Constitutions. the House for giving leave for the third Appropriate amendments are required in reading of the Bill and I note the matter gun legislation to apply to citizens in the raised would have been more appropriately context of 1984. As I indicated, there was discussed in Committee. I shall ask Parlia­ substantial concern about firearms legisla­ mentary Counsel to examine closely the tion a year or two ago, and some honoura­ wording in that clause and, if necessary, I ble members believed the legislation would shall seek to introduce an amending Bill, if require further amendment and, clearly, the not in this sessional period then at the first proposed legislation moves in that direc­ available opportunity in the next sessional tion. period. There are one or two concerns with the The motion was agreed to, and the Bill clauses in the Bill. For example, it is diffi­ was read a third time. cult to understand why there should be sub­ stantial restrictions on a person wearing a FIREARMS (GENERAL bullet-proof vest. I accept that Ned Kelly, AMENDMENT) BILL who lived in my district and was well-known The debate (adjourned from the previous to my grandfather-he may have worked day) on the motion of the Hon. R. A. Mac­ for hIm at one stage, certainly Steve Hart kenzie (Minister for Conservation, Forests did-- and Lands) for the second reading of this The Hon. E. H. Walker-Did your Bill was resumed. grandfather work for Ned Kelly? The Hon. D. M. EVANS (North Eastern The Hon. D. M. EVANS-No, he worked Province)-The National Party has no ob­ for my grandfather. I have stories told by jection to the passage of the proposed legis­ my grandfather that I shall pass on on a lation. It did, as did many honourable more private basis if the Minister wishes to members within the House, have consider­ hear them. Ned Kelly wore perhaps the most able concern about the passage of firearms famous bullet-proof vest-and several cop­ amendment legislation a year or so ago, and ies of the original-which was made by the House will recall that prior to the last Charlie Lloyd, his brother-in-law, from election substantial debate and much lob­ some old plough shears. At Greta there are bying was carried out by Victorian gun clubs still a few plough shears around and, per­ which had concern about the policies es­ haps, the original one is still there. poused by the then Opposition and the cur­ I was fascinated to read in the Bill the rent Government. provisions for bullet-proof vests and I refer Honourable members will recall that Mr them back to Ned Kelly. Perhaps the refer­ Landeryou on a number of occasions re­ ence to bullet-proof vests was suggested by ferred to the need for additional firearms the early example of a person who was not control in Victoria and, on one or two oc­ in good odour with the law and had one for casions, made some rather dramatic com­ protection. I believe the provisions regard­ ments and gave graphic illustrations in the ing the bullet-proof vest saving a life may House of the necessity for firearms control. transcend the other concerns that the Min­ I pointed out the grave dangers within the ister may have. community where firearms were available I understand the modern bullet-proof vest without proper restriction and regulation. is less bulky and heavier than the one that Honourable members will be aware that the Ned wore, and had they been available in Firearms (General Amendment) Bill 31 October 1984 COUNCIL 1105

1880, Ned would probably have worn one. to the Chamber. The architect of the Labor I note with concern that some security Party's firearms policy, the Civil Rights and agents suggest there may be some restric­ Law Reform Policy Committee, was chaired tions on their ability to carry and use side­ by the current Attorney-General, and had arms or pistols for their work. Even so, as members Mr Arnold and Mrs Coxsedge, provided the law gives them that ability and among others. I am disappointed that the opportunity, it is not unreasonable from the Attorney-General and Mr Arnold are not community's point of view to have strict present in the Chamber. controls on such weapons. The sight of The Bill is legislation piece No. 4 or 5; the weapons for some people can be an incite­ Labor Party and the Government have lost ment to violence and the possession of them count of the number of pieces of proposed may tend to beget violence in those who legislation that have been introduced to try h.ave a desire to carry out crimes such as to make the system work. They are ob­ robbery and so forth. It is not totally a one­ viously still not workin~. However, at long way street; it can be the cause of additional last, the Government IS listening to and problems; therefore; it is reasonable that it consulting with people who understand should be subject to proper restriction. what the shooting sports and shooting in­ I note that the provisions contained in dustry is about. It has taken two and a half the Bill make it somewhat easier for collec­ years for the Government to recognize that tors of guns and other items to pursue that It should have consulted these people at the hobby. One does not perceive a great deal outset. Although the Opposition does not of danger in possessing an ancient pistol. I oppose the Bill, I take the Government to suggest that, even if it were to be loaded and task for its lethargy in not seeking consulta­ a person carrying it were to attempt to fire tion with the people who understand what it, he would probably be in greater danger the firearms industry is all about. than his intended victiln because such pis­ After the State election in April 1982, an tols have a habit of blowing back through Interim Firearms Consultative Committee the back or side of the gun. In case there was established. The committee worked should be someone who believes the pos­ through May to November 1982, and the session of such a weapon may intimidate current Attorney-General attended a num­ those at whom it is pointed, even if it is not ber of those meetings. At present, there is a loaded, I suggest that the availability of question on the Notice Paper-Question on model weapons and replicas, which can look Notice No. 453-seeking information from far more like the real thing than an ancient the Attorney-General on the role that he pistol, are a greater danger. I have no doubt played. The question was asked by my col­ that a criminal who wanted to use a dummy league, Mr Birrell, but it remains unan­ weapon would choose a model weapon swered. Obviously, it is a sensitive matter rather than an ancient pistol. The commu­ for the Attorney-General because he has nity is not placed in grave danger by the neglected to answer it. relaxation provided by the Bill. Following the establishment of the in­ With those few comments, which were a terim committee, the Firearms Consulta­ tive Committee was established. It included little light-hearted in a number of places, I Mr John Phillips, Mr Bob Buchan, Mr John indicate that the National Party has no ob­ Ibbitson, Mr Syd Cowling and Mr Bob Em­ jection to the passage of the Bill. However, slie. The claim has been made by the Gov­ there will need to be continuing review of ernment that the committee consulted with the principal legislation in line with com­ people throughout the industry. I question munity attitudes and needs. that claim in view of the number of changes The Hon. N. B. REID (Bendigo Prov­ that have been made to the legislation and ince)-I assure the House that I will not be the long track that the Minister for Police light-hearted about this matter because the and Emergency Services has taken to finally Labor Party must, as each day and each Bill arrive at a policy that is somewhere near passes, now recognize that it has made a working. I say "somewhere" because it is monumental blunder in the implementa­ obvious that it is still not working effec­ tion of its firearms policy. tively and does not meet with the approval I am pleased that the Minister for Con­ of people within the shooting sports and servation, Forests and Lands has returned shooting industry. 1106 COUNCIL 31 October 1984 Firearms (General Amendment) Bill

In May 1983 the Minister for Police and the legislation was due for implementation Emergency Services indicated that there had on 1. February 1984. been a thorough and proper process of con­ Therefore, the Government had allowed sultation. If that were the case, I wonder only three working days in which to enact whether the consultative committee was the legislation. As honourable members can given the opportunity of examining the rec­ imagine, utter chaos reigned in the Police ommendations and information put to the Force, the Ministry and the community. I committee. It took the Labor Party Govern­ do not blame the police officers because they ment twelve months to introduce a Bill and were given the task of implementing the after what the Minister claimed was a thor­ legislation without any instructions, appli­ ough and proper process of consultation. cation forms, booklets or information for A Bill was introduced on 23 March 1983. the public. The important implementation Before the Bill had hardly surfaced in the of serious changes to firearms le$islation was other place, the Minister introduced 28 grossly mishandled and the MInister must amendments and a new clause. The Bill be held responsible. came to this place in June 1983, and a num­ The information booklets produced at the ber of amendments were made to bring it in time were printed only in English. As hon­ line with the Government's undertaking that ourable members would be aware, many it would be similar to legislation that ex­ members of the ethnic community are keen isted in South Australia. shooters and would require the booklets to In October 1983) the consultative com­ be printed in a language other than English. mittee was expanded to include Mr Ted When one applies for a motor vehicle learn­ Clarke, who is an acknowledged expert in er's permit, information booklets are avail­ the field of firearms and who has a vast able in the Greek, Turkish, Italian, Polish, knowledge which he has been able to make Serbo-Croatian, German, Vietnamese, available to the committee. When Mr Clarke Arabic and Spanish languages. If one ap­ was included as a member, the Govern­ plies for a shooter's licence, one receives a ment finally recognized that he was some­ booklet printed only in English. The Gov­ one who would understand what the ernment has ignored members of the ethnic firearms industry was all about and could community who wish to obtain informa­ provide the input that was so necessary to tion on safety procedures and precautions the Government, which was completely at associated with the legislation. odds with the Shooting Sports Council of In March 1984 a further Bill was intro­ Victoria. duced to validate the Minister's illegal de­ cision to allow shooters into Victoria In October 1983, the Firearms (Further without the necessity to wait for the three­ Amendment) Bill, which was a tidying up week delay period. Interstate shooters were exercise, was introduced. I do not hold the allowed to use their home State licence in Government responsible for that, but the Victoria. I am sure honourable members Minister for Police and Emergency Services will recall the occasion, and this move was indicated that the Act would be proclaimed made because of the forthcoming duck on 1 January 1984. He indicated that the shooting season. During the debate on the computer programmes and administrative Bill, I asked whether the Minister had con­ procedures would be in place by that time. sulted the Border Anomalies Committee. On 26 October 1983 the Bill was intro­ Members of the Government party said that duced in the other place and three amend­ I was nitpicking and that this was unneces­ ments and a new clause were added to it. sary. That was another effort by the Government Once again the Bill recognizes interstate to try to patch up the legislation. The Bill shooters' licences in Victoria. Interstate came to the Council on 22 November 1983 shooters may also purchase firearms in Vic­ and was passed on that day. However, the toria. Obviously no consultation occurred legislation was not proclaimed until 25 Jan­ between the Government and people on the uary 1984. The Bill was passed by both other side of the border, because one can Houses by 22 November 1983 and was not obtain a shooter's licence in New South proclaimed until 25 January this year. There Wales and come back to Victoria without had been a time lapse of two months and having to wait out the three-week period. Firearms (General Amendment) Bill 31 October 1984 COUNCIL 1107

Shooters can purchase firearms in Victoria called, "kevlar", which is not only suitable without having them registered in Victoria. for protective body armour, but can also be This illustrates how, once again, the Gov­ used in industries where employees operate ernment has refused to consult with the dangerous machinery. The Government people who understand the problems in­ gives the impression that it is concerned volved. about worker safety, and I ask the Minister The Shooting Sports Council of Victoria to seriously consider representations from presented a number of recommendations to that company concerning the manufacture the Government in ample time for inclu­ and use of the protective fabric. sion in the October 1983 legislation. The The Opposition does not oppose the Bill provisions have surfaced in the Bill demon­ because it believes the Government has fin­ strating that it has taken the Government ally recognized that a monumental blunder twelve months to accept the recommenda­ has been made with the preparation and tions made in October 1983. implementation of firearms legislation. As I have received a number of representa­ each day passes, the Government is gradu­ tions from security firms about the 1000 per ally working closer and closer towards re­ cent increase in pistol licence fees. It seems establishing the firearms policy that it de­ that the Government is using this measure, stroyed. as it uses many other measures, as a form The Hon. D. G. CROZIER (Western of revenue raising to hit the Victorian con­ Province)-I have a small query on the Bill sumer as hard as it can. I received represen­ to which I invite the Minister for Conser­ tations from the Victorian Security Institute, vation, Forests and Lands to respond. the Australian security industry association Clause 18 amends section 32 (1) and (3) of and the Armaguard organization. Arma­ guard, which has approximately the same the principal Act by substituting the words number of staff, pistols and licence fees in "prohibited weapon, ammunition or re­ both New South Wales and Victoria, prov­ lated article" for the words "prohibited ided a graphic illustration of how much the weapon or ammunition". After a cursory Victorian pistol licence fees are costing the examination of the Bill and the principal security industry. The total annual cost for Act, I am at a loss to understand the change pistol licences and renewal fees in Victoria because I have not been able to find any is $68 900. In New South Wales, for the such definition. I invite the Minister to pro­ same number of staff, the fees paid are only vide some indication to the House. $12320. One can see the huge difference The Hon. R. A. Mackenzie-What was between the fees charged in New South the clause? Wales and Victoria. It represents a huge dif­ The Hon. D. G. CROZIER-I am refer­ ference of some $46 000 in one security firm. ring the Minister to clause 18, which amends Once again the Cain Labor Government is sections 32 and 49 of the principal Act. In using this Bill as a revenue-raising measure. both cases it substitutes "prohibited weapon, I shall be interested to hear the response of ammunition or related article" for words the Government on whether it intends to contained in the Act. The definition of the continue further impositions on the secu­ term "related article" can be as long as a rity industry. piece of string. I want to know the rationale I have requested the Minister to consult behind inserting those extra words into sec­ with the Border Anomalies Committee re­ tions 32 and 49 of the Act. What does the garding the purchase of firearms interstate Government have in mind with the inser­ and the reciprocity of licences and sale of tion of the words "related article"? firearms between States. These problems The Hon. M. A. BIRRELL (East Yarra should be solved because they create diffi­ Province)-Nearly every State in Australia culties for people living in the border areas. is acting to restrict the availability of the I have received extensive representations most common weapon used in crime-the from A. W. Hellweg Pty Ltd, a Victorian conventional firearm. However, with the firm that manufactures, and wishes to con­ exception of New South Wales, no State has tinue to manufacture, body armour. I am adequately covered another important area sure the Minister would have received a of firearms control-the control of replica submission concerning a protective fabric or imitation firearms. 1108 COUNCIL 31 October 1984 Firearms (General Amendment) Bill

I am concerned because the Bill is silent they come across. That is. not a personal on this issue and, once again, Victoria seems opinion; it is shared by leading authorities to be lagging behind in an important law in the field. reform. Where most State Governments, Dr Paul Wilson, in a report of September including the Victorian Government, have 1983 entitled "Firearms in Crime, Acci­ failed to act is in the realm of controlling dents and Suicide with particular reference the sale and promotion of replica firearms, to the State of Queensland 1983", stated: which are often referred to as imitation or Police believe that replica pistols are fast becoming "fake" guns. The problem posed by those favourite weapons of hold-up men, based on state­ replicas is not small, nor will it decline. ments made by some offenders in court. Detailed statistics are not readily avail­ able, mainly owing to the difficulty in dis­ This view is supported by Mr Mark Lynch, tinguishing between "fake" and "real" guns. Secretary of the Australian Bank Employees However, there is growing evidence to sup­ Union, who stated in the same report: port the view that imitation firearms are We believe that in most recent cases of bank holdup leading to an increase in crime in Mel­ by what appears to be a pistol, the weapons have been bourne and in other parts of Victoria. replicas which can be bought in Queensland disposals stores, by mail order to a post office address, even by Replica firearms are of high quality. They Bankcard. are the same weight, size and colour as the original. However, they cost only a fraction Closer to home, in Victoria during the of the price of the real thing and, unfortu­ twelve-month period from August 1982 to nately, are readily available to children and August 1983, Crime Squad records indicate adults. that at least fourteen arrests for robberies involved the use of artificial weapons. One It is high time that Parliament faced up can only speculate at the number of at­ to the problem posed by these guns and in tempted robberies, robberies and assaults some way moved towards restricting access involving the use of an unconfirmed artifi­ to them. Newspapers and magazines fre­ quently carry full page advertisements, cial weapon. mainly from interstate organizations, which The Insurance Council of Australia Lim­ promote the sale of imitation firearms. One ited indicated its serious concern about this that has been brought to my attention is a phenomenon in its bulletin where it re­ full page advertisement in the Australian corded statistics which indicated that, be­ Post of 5 January 1984 describing items for tween 1981 and 1983, 79 crimes that sale from the Collectors Armoury in Bur­ definitely involved the use of imitation guns leigh Heads, Queensland. were committed in Victoria. The advertisement offers imitation fire­ Examples of criminals from all levels us­ arms to anyone who wishes to purchase ing imitation weapons to further their anti­ them through the post by mail order or social activities can be observed in many through the use of Bankcard. For the price newspapers. In the Sun of 6 August 1984, a of$19. 95 one can purchase a ·357 revolver report appeared about a man charged in the with a loading of blanks. That revolver is Brisbane court with using a replica firearm identical to the actual weapon in size, col­ in a public place to intimidate people. In our and weight, and for anyone other than the Waverley Gazette of Wednesday, 12 a person with a trained eye, it is the real September 1984, a report appeared about a thing. Alternatively, for $21.95 one can man charged at the Oakleigh Magistrates purchase a service automatic revolver which Court for brandishing a replica firearm at is almost identical to that issued to many another man. He was convicted of intimi­ law enforcement agencies throughout Aus­ dating and causing alarm to the commu­ tralia. There is no requirement about the nity. An article in the Sun of 26 September purchaser's age or the intended use of the 1983 reported a successful· hold-up involv­ article. ing a toy pistol. One can observe that it is easy to pur­ Each of these examples indicates the need chase these imitation guns and that petty for legislative control to ensure that imita­ thieves, drug addicts or other criminals can tion or replica firearms are not used im­ gain access to them, and by holding them properly in the future. I hope the out as the real thing can threaten any person Government-and I am sure this will at- Racing (Amendment) Bill (No. 2) 31 October 1984 COUNCIL 1109 tract the support of all parties-will move I have sympathy with, and share the con­ to restrict the advertising of replica firearms cern of, Mr Birrell on the points he raised. and to inhibit access to these items, partic­ The use of replica pistols and similar weap­ ularly by children. The replicas are of a high ons is an important matter, and I appreciate standard and for most people appear to be the point made by the honourable mem­ the authentic weapons. They are capable of ber-that they should not be banned en­ causing fear and intimidation of many peo­ tirely but that they should be harder to ple in the community and they have the obtain. I will raise the matter with the Min­ effect of being seen as an actual weapon, ister and support Mr Birrell's views. even though they are easy and cheap to pur­ The motion was agreed to, and the Bill chase. was read a third time. I conclude by recalling the remarks of The sitting was suspended at 1.3 p.m. un­ Detective Inspector John Barclay who was til2.7 p.m. reported in the Herald of Monday, 16 April 1984, as having said that he would like to RACING (AMENDMENT) BILL (No. 2) see replicas licensed and "being as difficult The Hon. D. E. KENT (Minister of Agri­ to obtain as real guns". culture)-I move: I do not propose that toy guns be banned That this Bill be now read a second time. or that replicas or antiques should be the subject of a total prohibition. Nevertheless, Its purpose is to remove the sunset date of strict control should be exercised on the ad­ 1 April 1985, which applies to sections 4 to vertising of imitation guns so that children 14 of the Racing (Amendment) Act 1983 and persons who have an anti-social pur­ pursuant to section 16 of that Act. The As­ pose cannot purchase them and so that, at sembly agreed that the sunset date should the very least, one cannot simply send off a be changed to 1 April 1987. Bankcard mail order to Queensland and ob­ Honourable members will no doubt re­ tain a gun to be used the next day to hold call that the Government, in the Racing upa bank. (Amendment) Act 1983, introduced a num­ The motion was agreed to. ber of reforms of the racing industry with The Bill was read a second time. the view to improving the administration The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Minister of racing in this State and the viability of for Conservation, Forests and Lands)-By the three branches of the industry. The Act leave, I move: provided for: That this Bill be now read a third time. A Racing Appeals Tribunal; an addi­ tional twelve metropolitan mid-week I thank honourable members opposite for thoroughbred race meetings; their comments and note the points that they have raised. I assure Mr Crozier that I the constraints on the transfer of meet­ will take up his query with the Minister. ings between racing districts are to be removed; In answer to Mr Reid, I understand that a change in the method ofdistributing the the Registrar of Firearms is in the process Totalizator Agency Board's surplus; of preparing a report and has taken on board the concern expressed by Mr Reid about grants to be made from the Racecourses pistol licences. I understand that the report Development Fund for the purchase of is about to be presented to the Minister for essential racecourse equipment; and consideration of the matters raised. patrons at horse race meetings to be able Mr Reid also raised the question of bul­ to bet on greyhound races. let-proof vests. I understand that the manu­ The effect of the sunset provision, if it facture and use of bullet-proof vests is not were to continue in force, would be to re­ totally prohibited. The Governor in Coun­ peal all these Government initiatives, the cil has power to authorize the manufacture only exception being the Racing Appeals and use of that type of body armour, and Tribunal, and I am sure honourable mem­ consideration will be given to authorizing bers agree that this would be a most unfor­ the manufacture of bullet-proof vests in tunate situation for the whole of the racing particular. industry. 1110 COUNCIL 3 October 1984 Racing (Amendment) Bill (No. 2)

When these measures were introduced I will now turn to the change in the there was considerable debate and resist: method of distributing the TAB surplus. It ance by the Opposition to· many of the is perhaps useful if, for the benefit of hon­ measures, particularly the provisions for the ourable members, I go over the background additional mid-week metropolitan meet­ to the change in the method of distribution. ings and the changes in the method of the B~fore the .ch~nge~ each code of racing re­ distribution of the Totalizator Agency ceived a dlstnbutlon from the surplus in Board's surplus. accordance with the proportion of invest­ ment on each code in the total board turn­ At the tim~, th~ Minister for Youth, Sport and RecreatIOn In another place indicated over. Since 1973-74 the proportion of the to the House that the effect of these two surplus distributed to greyhound racing de­ measures in particular would be very care­ ~lined from 14.79 per cent to 9·41 per cent fully monitored, and that there would be In 1981-82, whIle harness racing peaked at 22·59 per cent in 1975-76 but was down to full cons~ltation with the industry as to their effect. It IS only after long and detailed con­ 19·81 per cent in 1981-82. If the Govern­ sideration that the Government has de­ ment had not acted when it did, harness cided that, in the interests of the racing racing and greyhound racing would have industry as a whole, the sunset clause should declined further in 1982-83, with grey­ be repealed. Although the Bill is small in hound racing down to 7·66 per cent and length, it concerns matters of very great harness racing down to 19·76 per cent. At substance and importance. !hese levels the viability of the greyhound Industry would have been in jeopardy. I will deal firstly with the issue of the It is interesting to reflect that one of the addi~i(:mal mid-we~k. meetings. With the provIsion of the additIOnal twelve mid-week reasons for the decline in growth for harness metropolitan meetings, total turnover and greyhound racing, and the consequent dramatic increase. for thoroughbreds, was throu~ the TAB on metropolitan mid-week meetIngs rose from $56 883 204 to the Government's Introduction of after-race $89 782 180, an increase of $32 898 986 payouts by the TAB, a concept that had which in percentage terms is an increase of been opposed by the thoroughbred industry 57·84 per cent. Of this additional turnover for many years. the racing industry, through the Govern: Accordingly, the Government developed ment's underwriting, receives 3·525 per cent and introduced a new formula which would of this amount, which is $1 159689. be fair and equitable to all codes. Under the It should be noted that this additional revised formula, each code received as a turnover was clearly not money transferred base the amount that it actually received in fro~ betting on country meetings. For the the previous year. To this base is added the racing season ~nded 31 July 1984, average increase in the amount available for distri­ turnover on mid-week metropolitan meet­ ~ution compared to the previous year div­ ings was $2 568 205, whereas average turn­ Ided according to the proportion of betting over on mid-week provincial meetings was on each code. The Racing Act guarantees a $1 317 843. minimum distribution to the industry of On the objective evidence available it is 3·525 per cent of TAB turnover by means of t~e underwriting provisions, so that, clear that the additional meetings have 'been prOVided TAB turnover continues to in­ extr~mely successful. They have been of conSiderable benefit to the racing industry crease, all codes are able to look forward to through the distribution of stake money to an increase in the amount distributed each owners and of benefit to the people of Vic­ year. toria through the additional money· gener­ There are two key features of the scheme ated for hospitals and charities. To conclude that must be emphasized. Firstly, the Gov­ this point I add that the Victoria Racing ernment believes each of the codes has the Club supports the retention of the addi­ right to a viable ongoing future, and it will tional mid-week meetings and that it fur­ not idly stand by and see the prospects of ther has the support of the chairman of the the viability of any particular code being met~opolitan raciIl:g cl~bs and the Acting jeopardized. ChaIrman of the Vlctonan Country Racing Secondly, this arrangement is not-and I Council. emphasize "not"-a fixed percentage dis- Racing (Amendment) Bill (No. 2) 31 October 1984 COUNCIL 1111

tribution scheme. The arrangement does not crease for harness racing was $854 490, in enshrine percentages in the legislation but, percentage terms a 14·98 per cent increase, rather, it is a scheme whereby each code, and greyhound racing received an increase through using its best endeavours, promo­ of $420 420, which in percentage terms is tion and entrepreneurial skills, may achieve 15·67 per cent. a higher total percentage of the distribution It would, therefore, be completely illogi­ in each year than it achieved for the year cal for the thoroughbred industry to claim before. This arrangement has in fact safe­ that it is hard done by when it is receiving guarded the futures of all the codes. If the this record amount for distribution with Act had not been amended, the position such a huge increase in real terms and a would have been that thoroughbred racing percentage increase in excess of 20 per cent. would have gone from a situation in Further, it should be stated that the propor­ 1981-82 of70·78 per cent to 76·64 per cent tion of the distribution that racing received in 1983-84, whereas harness racing would in 1983-84, 72 per cent, is in fact a higher have continued to fall and would have gone percentage than that which racing received from 19·81 per cent in 1981-82 down to in the last year of the operation of the for­ 15·66 per cent in 1983-84. Similarly, grey­ mer arrangement-1981-82-which was hound racing would have declined from 9·41 70·78 per cent. Under the Government's per cent in 1981-82 down to 7·7 per cent in current scheme, racing has not only re­ 1983-84. ceived a considerable actual increase, but it It is understood that this arrangement has also improved its total percentage of the does take money which would otherwise be distribution. distributed to the thoroughbred industry As I indicated earlier, there has been ex­ and divert it to harness and greyhound rac­ tensive consultation with the industry on ing, but the Government believes this does this matter. An important meeting of all not jeopardize thoroughbred racing, yet it codes together with representatives of the helps service the other areas of the industry. TAB and the Department of Youth, Sport For the racing year just ended a record and Recreation was held under the chair­ total of $34549000 is to be distributed to manship of the Minister for Youth, Sport the racing industry. Under the current ar­ and Recreation on 10 July 1984. Prior to rangement each code will receive the fol­ this meeting the Minister had written to each lowing: Racing, that is, galloping­ of the codes requesting that they forward $24 877 899, 72 per cent of the distribution; submissions on the matter of the distribu­ harness racing-$6 559236, 18·99 per cent tion and that they should come to the meet­ of the distribution; and greyhound racing­ ing prepared to speak to these submissions. $3 111 865, 9·01 per cent of the distribu­ Put very briefly, the position of each of the tion. codes, as submitted at the meeting, was as Under the previous formula, however, the follows. codes would have received: Racing, that is, The Victoria Racing Club proposed that galloping-$26 481 808, 76·65 per cent of the 1983 amendment should lapse and ar­ the distribution; harness racing­ rangements revert to the previous situation $5 406 918, 15·65 per cent of the distribu­ of a distribution in direct proportion to each tion; and greyhound racing-$2 660 273, codes contribution to turnover. The Vic­ 7·7 per cent of the distribution. toria Racing Club further argued that the There are a number of important points ability of racing to distribute adequate stake that must be made in relation to these fig­ money is being seriously eroded, particu­ ures which put the issue clearly into per­ larly in the country, by the significant trans­ spective. fers to the other codes and that this is also The distribution for racing-that is, gal­ having an effect in relation to the position loping-of $24 877 899 is a record amount of Victorian racing compared to racing in and represents an increase over the distri­ other States, particularly New South Wales. bution of the previous year of $4 185 090, The Harness Racing Board sought a fixed which in percentage terms is an increase of percentage distribution based on the aver­ 20· 22 per cent. The other codes did not re­ age distribution of each of the three codes ceive an actual or percentage increase of since the Totalizator Agency Board was es­ anywhere near this magnitude. The in- tablished. The percentages sought are: Rac- 1112 COUNCIL 31 October 1984 Liquor Control (Amendment) Bill (No. 2) ing, 69 per cent; harness racing, 21 per cent; for the purchase of essential racecourse and greyhound racing, 10 per cent. equipment. The board argues that the initiatives,such The restriction of transferring meetings as after-race payouts, the additional twelve between country racing districts dates back mid-week metropolitan race meetings, to 1928 when there was a major review of meeting clashes between codes and the 3DB racing legislation, but it is not of any benefit broadcasting contract, have disadvantaged to the industry today and the removal of harness racing and its capacity to contribute this restriction enabled the industry to be to turnover and that these initiatives have placed on a more appropriate footing for been to the advantage of thoroughbred rac­ today's racing environment. ing, thereby increasing its actual proportion The proposition that the cost of essential of Totalizator Agency Board turnover. The racecourse equipment should be made from board also argues that turnover on inter­ the Racecourses Development Fund is ob­ state race meetings should be shared equally viously a sound proposal and one that is among the three codes as being fairer than clearly in the best interests of the racing the current arrangement in that, currently, industry. the major proportion of interstate betting is The last item that is covered deals with on thoroughbred racing, but Victorian thor­ the provision which enables patrons ofhorse oughbred racing does nothing to earn this race and harness race meetings to be able to turnover. bet on greyhound races. This extends to such The Greyhound Racing Control Board people a privilege already enjoyed by pa­ submitted that greyhound racing should re­ trons at greyhound meetings to bet on meet­ ceive a fixed percentage of not less than 10 ings of the other codes which are being held per cent of the available surplus and made at the same time and is obviously a sensible many of the same points as the Harness and realistic proposal. Racing Board in respect of the advantages In conclusion, I should state to the House enjoyed by thoroughbred racing. that the Government has given careful con­ Therefore, it can be seen that there is no sideration to the effects of these measures concensus within the industry on the best on the racing industry and firmly believes it means of effecting the distribution, and it is in the best interests of the industry as a has been necessary for the Government to whole that it should continue. I commend step in and devise what, I am sure honour­ the Bill to the House. able members will agree, is a most just and On the motion of the Hon. F. J. GRAN­ equitable arrangement in all the circum­ TER (Central Highlands Province), the de­ stances. bate was adjourned. The Government will, of course, con­ It was ordered that the debate be ad­ tinue to carefully monitor the effect of this journed until later this day. distribution formula on the industry, for it LIQUOR CONTROL (AMENDMENT) is a major concern to the Government that BILL (No. 2) the racing industry as a whole should re­ main viable and economic and that Vic­ The debate (adjourned from the previous toria should remain the premier racing State day) on the motion of the Hon. D. R. White in Australia. (Minister for Minerals and Energy) for the I shall deal very briefly with the other second reading of this Bill was resumed. matters that are covered by the sunset The Hon. CLIVE BUBB (Ballarat Prov­ clause. The Government, in the Racing ince)-The Bill contains the most compre­ (Amendment) Act 1983, implemented a hensive reforms to the Liquor Control Act number of the recommendations of the that this State has seen for many years. Racecourses Licences Board report upon the The Hon. M. J. Sandon-And it's about rationalization of racing in Victoria, and the time, too! two matters which are directly affected here The Hon. CLIVE BUBB-I find most are the removal of the constraints on the disconcerting the haste with which the Bill transferring of meetings between racing dis­ has been prepared and introduced. As evi­ tricts and the enabling of grants to be made dence of that haste, the only aspect of the from the Racecourses Development Fund Bill which must pass by the end of the ses- Liquor Control (Amendment) Bill (No. 2) 31 October 1984 COUNCIL 1113 sional period is the promise made by the ity of the Government's policy: .eople who are likely to be making submis­ not take place now. The Government has SIons. alr~ady announced ~hat it will set up an in­ One could well ask also, "Why the qUlry, a further reVIew of the Liquor Con­ changes? Why do we need these extensions? trol Act and that the report of the review Why do we need the opportunity?" What is will be available by 30 September next year. proposed in the measure is an increase in The Government has decided, in the mean­ the opportunity for people to consume­ ti~e, that it will do what it wants anyway. liquor. That is the net effect of the Bill. It ThIS seems to be a little unacceptable to the does not matter how one does it, the effect National Party. Only recently, the Govern­ will be the same. Is the purpose of the Bill ment announced that it would establish an to try to sell more liquor? In his second­ inquiry to review the Liquor Control Act reading speech, the Minister stated: and that its report would be submitted by ... these amendments would increase the demand for 30 September 1985. The invitation to make alcoholic beverages, which I am told has remained submissions stated: static over recent years. Liquor Control (Amendment) Bill (No. 2) 31 October 1984 COUNCIL 1117

It is not that people are cryin~ out for more in extending the Act is making alcoholic opportunities to purchase hquor. Liquor beverages not only more available to young consumption has basically remained the people, but also making the consumption of same. However, to try to boost the sales of alcoholic beverages on all occasions more alcoholic beverages, the Government hopes acceptable in the eyes of the community in to increase the availability and the oppor­ general. Therefore, what is the reason for tunity for people to consume alcoholic bev­ this measure? Is it because, as the Minister erages. No matter which way one turns, one stated in the second-reading speech: will find an opportunity for consuming Melbourne in particular, is generally perceived by liquor. Australians as offering a dull and uninteresting life­ The Hon. R. J. Long-In that way, the style. Recent press articles have suggested that some Government gains both ways; it obtains liberalization of the regime of licensed hours would both the fee and also the proceeds from the help diminish concerns of Victorians about lifestyle fines relating to the ·05 provisions. issues and would make Victoria a more interesting State in which to reside or visit. The Hon. B. P. DUNN-I was coming to discussing that point. At the conclusion of The Hon. D. G. Crozier-Perhaps the the Minister's second-reading speech, he Government is concerned about the Pre­ talked about road safety measures-and that mier's image. is in reference to a Liquor Control Bill! He The Hon. B. P. DUNN-Mr Crozier is stated: right. The Government has thought that it Although enforcement of road safety measures lies has to jazz up the Premier because he is a more logically with the Transport Regulation Act than lack lustre performer. Everyone knows that the Liquor Control Act, I am concerned to ensure that the Premier has a lack lustre image in the the liberalization ofliquor trading hours, which will be eyes of the community, and this Govern­ consequent on this Bill, is accompanied by the strong ment has tried to portray him as being a top enforcement of random breath testing and increased performer. The Premier is now doing a "Bob police surveillance on Sundays. In this context I note Hawke" and associating himself with all the the recent statement by the Minister of Transport that the Victoria Police will be getting an extra 60 random sporting groups. The other night he was breath testing units in the near future, increasing to talking about the arts and claiming credit 150 the number of breath testing devices available to for the Victorian Arts Centre. Of course, police. With these extra units no-one can afford to take Melbourne will be the venue for the Aus­ the drink-drive risk, the chances of being tested are tralia Games next year. He is not the Min­ simply too great. The Minister also announced a ister responsible for that particular activity $250 000 Road Traffic Authority campaign to remind but the Premier announced this in an at­ the public of the increased random breath testing tempt to make it look as though he was activity. beginning to get into the act a little. On the one hand, the Government has de­ The Premier and the Government say that cided to open both doors, to make alcohol Melbourne is generally perceived as offer­ more readily available to the community ing a dull and uninteresting lifestyle. Some and, on the other hand, to spend more people may consider that that is the case, money and resources to provide more po­ but what do they wish to turn Melbourne lice for random breath testing stations to into? Honourable members know that this crack down on drinking drivers. The Gov­ Government did want Victoria to have ernment is expressing concern about the ef­ casinos; there have been inquiries on estab­ fects of alcohol on Victoria's road safety lishing a casino in Melbourne. The Govern­ figures; what a hypocritical attitude that is! ment might want to turn Melbourne into The Government has said that it will open another Kings Cross! Honourable members the doors for more liquor sales and, realiz­ may take it whichever way they wish, but I ing that people will have too much to drink do not believe the laws represent any re­ and there will be problems and deaths on striction on the tourist industry as there is the roads, it has said that it will have to significant and adequate opportunity for tackle that also. people in Victoria to consume alcoholic The Government also proposes to estab­ beverages under the laws that currently ex­ lish an education programme for young ist. Basically, the National Party believes people. I do not object to an education pro­ the extensions proposed in the Bill are not gramme, but what the Government is doing necessary and are not sought by Victorians. 1118 COUNCIL 31 October 1984 Liquor Control (Amendment) Bill (No. 2)

The Hon. D. R. White interjected. open from 10 a.m. to 11 p.m., and a supper The Hon. B. P. DUNN-It is typical of permit may be obtained for a hotel to oper­ the Minister for Minerals and Energy to in­ ate between the hours of 10 p.m. and 1 a.m. terject because, if someone disagrees with Under this Bill, there will not be a basic his point of view, he tries to shout that per­ supper permit because hotels will be able to son down. Honourable members know he open from 10 a.m. to 12 midnight. is a great democrat-he believes only his On Sunday, there are two 2-hour periods views should prevail! I point out to the between 12 noon and 8 p.m., with at least 2 Minister that a large percentage of the Vic­ hours between those bar trading periods. It torian community has not sought the is now proposed to extend week-day bar changes and does not want them to be made, trading to 12 midnight. and they have a right to put their points of The Bill will exclude the 1 a.m. supper view, and the National Party is putting for­ permit requirement for weekly hotel trad­ ward its point of view. The National Party ing-and the Liberal Party intends to move has received no representations from peo­ further that there be a permit possible to ple who believe the liquor laws are too tight extend that to 3 a.m.-and will allow hotels and that they should be further extended. to trade right through on Sundays without There has been no great public outcry in a 2-hour period restricion. favour of extending the liquor trading hours. It has been suggested that the tourist in­ Therefore, I ask: "Where does the demand dustry requires these changes but, in exam­ come from? What does the Government ining liquor reform, one should go beyond want to do?" This Government wants to one aspect, the tourist industry, and em­ ~ve Victoria a new swinging image, which brace the whole community. Many people It also wants to give to the Premier, Mr believe hotels should be closed for at least Cain-and he probably needs it. one day. Many hoteliers in the province that The Government claims that it has based I represent do not wish to open on Sundays these changes on the Davies report, and that and trade seven days a week. Many are fam­ is correct to some degree-where it has ily people and' many are runmn~ small suited the Government, it has used the rec­ hotels. It is a tough, difficult life WIth long ommendations of the Davies report. How­ hours. The position of smaller hotels should ever, the Bill goes further and introduces be considered, because many do not want changes not contained in the report's rec­ to open. ommendations. My colleague, the honour­ The Hon. W. A. Laoderyou-It is not able member for Murray Valley in another compulsory. place, described the measure as a minefield. The Hoo. B. P. DUNN-In some towns It is a minefield. The changes are signifi­ an amicable arrangement has been reached. cant. Many are unrelated and many are not Hoteliers do not have to open on Sundays, understood by the community. The Na­ but if there is competition in the locality tional Party questions the Government's they are forced to do so. The National Party motives. Already the Government has ack­ wonders why these provisions are necessary nowledged that the measure will create sig­ in the first place. When the, two 2-hour nificant problems in the community and periods of Sunday trading were initi3:ted, additional problems to road safety meas­ the National Party thought that was the thin ures. edge of the wedge and that the next step The National Party opposes extension of would be trading all day Sunday; now, the weekly bar trading hours and the sale of step will be for hotels to trade between 10 alcoholic beverages on Sundays. The Na­ a.m. and midnight on seven days a week. tional Party has been consistent in its ap­ The National Party will oppose clause 7. proach. It opposed the introduction of Clause 5 appears to allow the Minister to Sunday trading when that matter was last have considerable direction not only over before Parliament. The Bill proposes a rel­ the Liquor Control Commission but also atively significant change in hotel trading over officers and employees serving the hours, particularly for Sunday trading. commission. In the past, the Minister has At present, hotel trading during the week been able to confer, but this provision gives occurs between 10 a.m. and 10 p.m., with a the Minister power to direct and to control. daylight saving provision allowing hotels to That power goes further than just the com- Liquor Control (Amendment) Bill (No. 2) 31 October 1984 COUNCIL 1119 mission and extends to the chief supervisor day to Friday and between 6.30 p.m. and and to individual officers and employees of 9.00 p.m. on one night a week. The Govern­ the commission. ment may be considering nominating a spe­ The Bill proposes to extend the provi­ cific day for that 9 p.m. proposal. sions on hours and refreshments relating to The Hon. W. A. Landeryou-Friday. cabarets, extending the hour of closure from The Hon. B. P. DUNN-That is a rea­ 3 a.m. to 7 a.m. Again, the National Party sonable proposition and the National Party does not believe there is sufficient justifica­ supports it because if a large retail liquor tion for that extension and will vote against outlet operates in a chain system, one outlet that clause. I well understand the popularity in that system could open until 9 p.m. each of cabarets, but it is unfortunate that a cab­ night, especially if they are in reasonable aret cannot operate successfully unless liq­ proximity to each other, and the other out­ uor is served. The Government is now lets could stagger its services. However, if ensuring that cabarets can serve liquor until there is a selected night, it is fair competi­ 7 a.m. It makes one wonder. tion for all of them. Theatre licences attract another new pro­ Mr Bubb mentioned that the Liberal Party vision. In the past, theatre licences have not is considering extending the retail bottled included cinemas. It will now be possible liquor sales for those outlets to Sunday to for cinemas to be licensed to sell liquor be­ bring them into line with the hotels. We do tween 6.30 p.m. and midnight. There is no not find favour with that as it is not neces­ justification for cinemas to be able to serve sary to extend the operation of these retail alcohol. liquor outlets to Sunday. We await further The Hon. M. J. Sandon-One can buy discussion on that amendment. coca cola, why not a glass of beer? The National Party will oppose clause 16 The Hon. B. P. DUNN-On the one relating to Sunday trading under cider tav­ hand, the Government talks of the prob­ ern licences, not because a cider tavern is lems of alcohol and the problems of road involved but because of the principle I stated safety and, on the other hand, extends liq­ earlier concerning Sunday trading. uor trading hours. Some years ago I was on We will vote against clause 19 in relation an all-party committee inquiring into the to club licences. In the past club licences drug situation in Victoria, before the issue have been able to operate from 12 noon to hit the headlines as a major problem and, 2.30 p.m., and from 4.30 p.m. to 8 p.m. at that time, by far the biggest problem in This provision will allow the holder of a the community was the abuse of alcohol. club licence to sell liquor between the hours That created many other difficulties related of noon and 8 p.m. That is an extension the to family life, car accidents, and so on. National Party does not support. The National Party has no objection to the use of alcohol but there should be con­ We join the Liberal Party in opposing straints on its availability. Now, the Gov­ clause 38 which relates to the access to lic­ enced premises by ~nion represen~tives. ernment is saying that alcohol should be This would allow unIon representatIves to freely available anywhere in Victoria. It is enter premises at reasonable times when the extending liquor trading even to cinemas. premises were open and would allow that Surely there can be some forms of enter­ representative or representatives of a rele­ tainment that do not require the imbibing vant trade union reasonable access to the of alcohol. licensed premises for the purpose C?f in­ The Hon. M. J. Sandon-They do not specting time sheets of empl~yees, .Inter­ have to buy it! viewing employees and so on, In relatIon to The Hon. B. P. DUNN-No, they do not any matter concerned with their employ­ have to buy it but inevitably they do. An­ ment. other controversial provision relates to re­ In other proposed legislation, we have tail bottled liquor licences. The present dealt with the employee having the right of provision operates from 9 a.m. to 6 p.m. access to his records and time sheets, and from Monday to Friday and from 8.30 a.m. we consider that a reasonable proposition. to 1 p.m. on Saturday. This Bill proposes to However, the Government proposes that a extend that daily trade until 6.30 p.m. Mon- union representative can barge in through 1120 COUNCIL 31 October 1984 Liquor Control (Amendment) Bill (No. 2) the front door and virtually go through all Premier would make out, that is, dull and the company records that exist. uninteresting. He is telling everyone that The Hon. W. A. Landeryou-They can Melbourne is the entertainment centre of do that now. Australia, that it is the investment centre The Hon. B. P. DUNN-The Govern­ and that marvellous things have happened ment wants to give it the status of being in in the past month or so under this Govern­ the legislation. ment. That leaves the people of Victoria amazed, but they are not hoodwinked by Honourable members interjecting. the public relations attitude and the rheto­ The Hon. B. P. DUNN-The Govern­ ric of this Government. The whole thing is ment wants compulsory unionism. It wants a giant public relations plan that the com­ to force any person not involved in a union munity is paying for to prepare this Gov­ to become a member of a union. It wants ernment for the election. The Premier is the right to put individuals under duress in claiming credit for everything that has hap­ industry where its unions do not have the pened. control that the Government wishes them to have. This would be a further tool in the Members of the National Party do not union's approach towards enforcing union­ know why this Bill is necessary. It will have ism. It can be misused and the Opposition an adverse impact on road safety in this parties will not support that clause. State. We intend to make our opposition to many of these reforms known during the The National Party stron~y supports the Committee stage when we will vote against provisions relating to the Wine industry lic­ the clauses I have indicated. ence and commends the Government for announcing in the Budget that it would re­ The Hon. M. J. SANDON (Chelsea duce the present fee of 15 per cent and the Province)-I support the Bill because it will 5 cents a litre rate to a flat 9 per cent on have a far-reaching and dramatic impact on sales only. That is the same rate that applies the quality oflife for all Victorians. Victoria to beer and other forms of standard liquor. has been aptly named a conservative State. The extra tax should never have been ap­ It is inherent in the attitude of many Victo­ plied to the wine industry. That industry is rians to liquor and the places at which liq­ struggling and the wine grape growers are uor is consumed that have been curtailed having considerable difficulties. excessively. If one has the opportunity of travelling and seeing places in Europe, one The Minister of Agriculture knows that discovers that alcohol can be obtained at his legislation of only a couple of weeks ago almost any time of the day in almost any was passed to give the wine ~ape growers the ability to negotiate on a Wider variety of place. One does not see excessive amounts grapes and to get a fair price for their prod­ of alcoholism amongst European people be­ uct. Those additional taxes should never cause liquor is an integral part of their way have been imposed on the wine industry. of life. Members of the National Party commend For a long time I have believed there has the Government for being prepared to re­ been a need for liberalization of society's duce the fee to its previous level and to drop attitude towards drink and the purchase of some of the other charges. The tax which alcohol. I shall not go into detail on the Bill has been imposed by the Federal Govern­ at this stage because considerable debate will ment will counter some of that good work. occur during the Committee stage. Dra­ The Bill will need to be dealt with in matic changes have occurred with the hours, Committee. There are considerable unre­ the days and places that drink can be ob­ lated issues but, generally, the Bill ,provides tained; licensed clubs, hotels, restaurants, for an extension of the opportunity to pur­ and BYO's all come under the Act and the chase alcoholic beverages in this State. Our changes in the proposed legislation. Mem­ party is not in favour of the extensions, es­ bers of the community will have a direct pecially those relating to Sundays. We do involvement in the changes that will occur. not understand why the Government wants The Government is giving local commu­ to push this Bill through at this time. nities far more involvement in the proc­ Victoria is not on its knees because there esses of the renewal of licences or the is not the oPPortunity ofbuying liquor here. creation of new licences. Honourable mem­ Melbourne is not seen in the light that the bers will have noted in reading the Bill that Liquor Control (Amendment) Bill (No. 2) 31 October 1984 COUNCIL 1121 councils, as representatives of the local casions in the past, I had raised in the House community, have their standing enhanced the problems arising from the tacking of significantly with the proposed legislation. non-financial measures to financial Bills. Councils have been given an automatic right This procedure has long been outlawed in to object to applicants and renewals. That the United Kingdom, the home of the did not exist before. The notification pro­ Westminster system. The procedure is not visions in the Bill have been strengthened, practised but is avoided as far as practicable particularly in relation to new permits. More throughout the Westminster system. In­ time has been allowed for people to respond deed, the process of tacking non-financial to applications and the period has been ex­ measures on to a financial Bill is regarded tended from 14 days to 28 days. People ap­ as unparliamentary and unfair. Other Par­ plying for new licences or for renewal of liaments are reluctant to interfere with the their licence, must display a prominent sign financial measures of a Government. If a of that intention, and councils must be no­ financial Bill containing provisions of a non­ tified. This is further evidence of the role financial nature is before the House, the councils will have acting on behalf of the House is inhibited in dealing with those local community, and all honourable mem­ provisions and may be denied its normal bers will applaud those changes. right of amending the measure. The Act has also been amended to cover On this occasion the Bill is tacking in re­ complaints about licence holders. People verse. The general liquor Bill ought to be will be able to complain at any stage. They considered clause by clause and amended will be able to go the Liquor Control Com­ as the House thinks fit. Tacked on to that g~neral Bill is a Budget giveaway, a reduc­ mission to lodge a complaint against a lic­ tion of tax on the sale of wine. That clearly ence holder. should be presented as a separate measure. The emphasis of the proceedings of the Its incorporation in the Bill is designed Liquor Control Commission has changed purely to embarrass the House and to pro­ and the commission will now become more vide the Government with a lever. That le­ informal and investigative. This further en­ ver exists simply because it puts the hances the role councils can play in involv­ Government in the position where it can ing themselves directly at the commission say, "To hell with your amendments; if you without legal costs. Officers of the council hold up the Bill and do not agree with it as and residents will now be able to place sub­ presented, you are holding up the financial missions before the commission and this giveaway". That ought not to happen with will lead to a greater understanding of the a Bill of this nature, which is not a financial nature of the problems concerned, without Bill. It is a Bill for general purposes, a Bill having to obtain legal representation. It will to make ~eneral amendment, and the finan­ enhance local community involvement be­ cial provIsion is included incidentally. cause the commission will be able to re­ I direct the attention of the House to the spond almost immediately. Informality has fact that there is a long-established proce­ been incorporated into the Bill, and will as­ dure for the subdivision of Bills, in those sist local councils involved at the commis­ circumstances, to enable severance of of­ sion. It will also mean that the time taken fending matter from one Bill and its contin­ to consider matters will be sped up. uation as a separate measure. The House of The Bill is a progressive measure. Mr Lords used that provision from time to time Dunn, in the remarks he made to the House to ensure that the House of Commons did today, reinforced the differences that exist not engage in obnoxious and embarrassing between the Labor Party and the National tactics. The provision has always been Party on social issues. The Labor Party be­ available in Parliaments throughout the lieves people, of whatever station in life, Westminster system. I have no recollection should be able to purchase liquor without of its being used in this House in living having their lives regulated as they were in memory. Indeed, if it has been used in the the past. I commend the Bill to the House. House, it must have been a long time ago. That does not mean that the power is not The Hon. A. J. HUNT (South Eastern there or that it ought not be used, and I Province)-1 desire to deal only with one believe it ought to be used if the Govern­ aspect of the Bill and not with the substan­ ment seeks to take advantage of the situa­ tial issues raised by the Act. On several oc- tion. 1122 COUNCIL 31 October 1984 Liquor Control (Amendment) Bill (No. 2)

I urge the Government to desist from this present Minister for the initiatives that have obnoxious tactic. It is not fair, not appro­ been shown. The clock cannot be turned priate, and it does not help the business of back in this industry. In the days when I Parliament. held a brief responsibility for the legislative The Hon. W. A. LANDERYOU (Doutta control of this Act, I would have liked to Galla Province)-I wish to make a number have started with a clean slate on the liquor of brief points. There is no industry in the industry, because what has occurred previ­ history of the State, or the nation, into which ously has been based on compromise, hy­ more inquiries or investigations have been pocrisy and humbu~. It is not possible in conducted down through the.years. Indeed, the present climate, whether we are going the first inquiry in the history of Victoria into an election or just C9ming out of one, was into the liquor industry. It is an indus­ to have an intelligent debate because of the try that, largely, has served the State well, politics-not necessarily party politics-of and I appreciate that there are many in the the liquor industry. The competing inter­ community who believe, if alcohol was dis­ ests, from the temperance groups through covered in the latter part of the twentieth to those who own breweries and the distill­ century, we would not be permitted to con­ ers and wine producers of this State, have sume it and it probably would be prohib­ an important and vocal interest in Victoria. ited. That was the case In the United States At the same time, the overriding consid­ of America during prohibition and it failed eration, apart from the welfare of our soci­ as a disastrous social experiment. ety, must be the consumer. I believe the The reality is that the liquor industry in draftsman of the proposed legislation had Victoria, in common with the industry in that in mind. Certainly, any Government other States throughout Australia, is sub­ or Parliament must have regard to the eco­ jected to a considerable number of inquir­ nomics of the industry and the economy of ies. The measures that the Government scale, and that often gets out ofkilt er. There proposes in the Bill are long overdue. They are some unfair measures to withhold lic­ are not revolutionary and radical, and it is ences imposed by the law on various sheer humbug for Mr Dunn to argue as he people. has today because it is generally known if My purpose in accepting the invitation of one is like Mr Dunn or like any other well­ the National Party is to explain one small known resident in certain parts of the State, but important measure contained in the Bill. there is not the strict policing of the same That is the one that deals with the writing licensing law that applies in the metropoli­ into the Act of provisions which are direct tan area. I do not condone that, but I am copies from a relevant State award in terms not hypocritical enough to ignore or to re­ of this industry. Mr Hunt's main objection fuse to acknowledge that situation. acknowledges that and it certainly appears Victoria's approach to the extension of that it is in the parlance and language of an the 6 p.m. closing to 10 p.m. closing was not award. done honourably or honestly, but the Pre­ For the benefit of honourable members mier of the day took the view that that who do not understand, the Victorian Par­ should occur despite the fact there were liament has already given to the wages massive public objections in a referendum boards the legislative power in a de facto held a few years earlier. The question of relationship to prescribe conditions and liquor reform and the question ofregulating wage rates for those people who work within the consumption of liquor in society, is an that industry. Mr Bubb explained in the de­ area in which I believe both major parties bate on another measure yesterday that it in this State have behaved responsibly but, also has common law application. at the same time, they have placed many The provision in this Bill is not unique to restrictions on the industry in a way most the hospitality industry. It is a standard other countries have not done. provision; a right of entry. That does not I believe the measure that the Govern­ mean, as Mr Dunn said, that a union official ment proposes should have been intro­ who is authorized by the State, has any right duced prior to October or November last other than by arrangement to enter prem­ year. That is a personal view but, neverthe­ ises at a reasonable time where people are less, I commend the Government and the employed within that industry, and who are Liquor Control (Amendment) Bill (No. 2) 31 October 1984 COUNCIL 1123 covered by that award, to inspect the time in the industry have insisted that their em­ and wages records. That provision is not ployees appear topless as a condition of em­ new, it was agreed to by this Chamber back ployment, despite the fact that that would in the 1890s. There is nothing new, radical be objected to by most members of the or revolutionary about it. In other words, community and by the Industrial Relations representatives of employees can inspect the Commission. A case was recently before the time and wages records. The clause gives to courts where a licensee insisted that a con­ those who are given a monopoly by the State dition of employment for his staff was that and by the Act-the Bill does not question they would be prepared to go to bed with that monopoly-a monopoly to retail, dis­ customers whom the employer nominated. tribute and sell liquor under a licence, which Those examples are not typical of the in­ is a complicated system, an obligation to dustry because, in the main, particularly in obey the law. Unfortunately in this State, my experience, hotelkeepers are extremely the hospitality industry has a large number good employers and are good corporate cit­ of employers who abuse the law and who izens in the sense that they involve them­ break the law; they deny entry. This Parlia­ selves in the community and many of them ment is not especially proud in terms of its are generous to a fault. Nevertheless, there history, because its staff, who work extraor­ are good and bad among all of us, and in dinarily long and difficult hours, often un­ the instances of which I am conscious, they der difficult conditions, were only recently are blatant breaches of the industrial law of unionized. this State. This has nothing to do with organizing That should be a potent weapon in the employees or with compulsory unionism. hands of an objector appearing before the All the Bill states is that the existing law in Liquor Control Commission when a partic­ Victoria, with respect to the industry and ular licensee's licence is up for renewal. the award, provides that an employee rep­ Therefore, the provision should be included resentative, authorized in writing by a union in the Bill. It is simply a repeat of what is secretary, may be able, at a reasonable time, written in the State award governing that to inspect the time and wages record of that section of the hospitality industry. employer with respect to his employees. The Hon. R. J. Long-It goes further than The next question posed rhetorically was: that. Why put it into the Act? It is because this industry is the most regulated of all in this The Hon. W. A. LANDERYOU-AlI Mr State and, when one looks at the history of Long has to do is pick up the sentiments the Act, there was the setting up of the tri­ that I have just expressed and propose the bunal as a court or a commission, to enable relevant amendment. The Government is the ordinary lay person who is not espe­ putting the fly-by-nights and the bad people cially skilled in the law to appear before it in the industry on notice that, in future, and to argue his case as a business entrepre­ apart from the question of sex laws in terms neur. As with other specialist jurisdictions, of discrimination and other relevant laws­ it has become the domain oflawyers, and it because all types of laws are taken into con­ costs a small fortune if one is to appear sideration if one is an applicant for a lic­ before the commission represented by a ence-they will be in breach of the law. One competent barrister specializing in that area must be of reasonably good character to ob­ oflaw. This clause seeks to impose on those tain approval from the licensing commis­ who operate under the Act, with a State sion to hold a licence. monopoly guaranteed licence provision, An employer who offends, and repeatedly where competitors cannot come in as in a offends, the terms of the State's or nation's free market concept because of the need to industrial laws will, therefore, also be a law be licensed, an additional obligation to rec­ breaker, and the offences, convictions, fac­ ognize the industrial laws of Victoria. tors and matters relating to that should be I shall consider the alternative options taken into account by the relevant tribunal. that face those who would be concerned Although the proposal by the Government about breaches of the law. I could give spe­ does not spell it out in exactly those words, cifics, but I shall not do so in the interests the inference is there and, hopefully, it will of better industrial relations. Some people put the industry on notice. . 1124 COUNCIL 31 October 1984 Liquor Control (Amendment) Bill (No. 2)

By and large, the entire industry has rea­ a constant breaker of the State's industrial sonably good relationships in terms of law. labour and capital. It is common knowledge The Hon. G. P. CONNARD (Higin­ that the Australian Hotels Association and botham Province)-I ask the House to take the Federated Liquor and Allied Industries note of the comments of the Leader of the Employees Union have a reasonably good Opposition in this place. I ask the Minister working relationship. They have agree­ for Minerals and Energy to make a response ments, with one or two hiccups, which oc­ to those comments because they are impor­ cur in any well-regulated industry. They are tant to orderly debate in this House. I shall minor in comparison to others, considering spend a few moments on one facet of the the hours that are worked and the pressures Bill-the removal of the extra charges on that are on the people, including financial the liquor and wine industry that were con­ pressures on hotelkeepers, in looking after tained in the 1983-84 Budget. the public, which is difficult at any time. The industrfs industrial record is not bad. The House will recall, among other things, that a task was given to the Economic and The Government wants to put those em­ Budget Review Committee to examine the ployers who are not in that category on equity of the tax. The committee proceeded notice that, in future, if they are to deny to examine the matter. In the course of its access to union officials to inspect w~e, sal­ consultations, it invited many people to ary and time records in accordance WIth the discuss why the tax was imposed. Among State law, it may well be a matter of consid­ erable importance at the time of the next the witnesses who gave evidence before the licence application or renewal. It can be just committee were representatives of the that even without a change in the law. How­ Liquor Control Commission. The commit­ ever, the Bill formalizes the situation. tee presumed that the Government would have consulted with the commission and The alternative option for employees who sought its advice on what type of tax should are organized in the industry is to impose be imposed. However, Judge Campton, who wholesale black bans on employers who re­ appeared on behalf of the commission­ fuse to co-operate. I understand the philos­ and who is a man of high repute and is ophy of the Liberal Party. Mr Dunn considered to be the doyen of the indus­ indicated that Parliament has written in try-reluctantly indicated that the commis­ special provisions for an individual em­ sion was not consulted on the imposition of ployee to have the right to inspect records. the tax. The provision allows organized labour rep­ resentatives the right of inspecting wage and The committee, in its wisdom, decided to time records. Despite the conservative consult with the Department of Manage­ nature of the Liberal Party, there should be ment and Budget and, after much question­ people within its ranks who understand the ing, the representative of the department point that I am trying to make. reluctantly indicated that the tax was a straight taxing measure; that it was purely a The option one has is to have regulation revenue-raising measure. so that people of good standing in the in­ dustry and the community, such as Judge This decision was in direct contrast to Campton, can supervise any matters that what the Minister told the House when the could blow up and affect the orderly mar­ tax was applied earlier in the year." It is an­ keting of the industry. Alternatively, one other instance of this high-taxing Govern­ can have individuals who are not directly ment applying taxes without any thOUght answerable to Parliament setting their own for the community and the industry. The pace in terms of their demands about what Government is being forced to remove the should be fair and equitable. It is a reason­ tax because of Federal financial measures. able proposition to put before a tribunal, One would have expected the Economic and which has the determinate power to decide Budget Review Committee to have been whether a person or a company should have consulted on the equity of that. Once again, a State monopoly licence, that one of the the Government arbitrarily decided to re­ conditions that should be debated at the move the tax without reference to a Parlia­ time of the licence application or renewal mentary committee, but I am sure the should be whether that employer has been committee would have agreed with the Liquor Control (Amendment) Bill (No. 2) 31 October 1984 COUNCIL 1125 Government because it had come to the issue. I was lobbied by representatives from conclusion that the tax was inequitable. both sides of the argument. I carefully Historically, proper mechanism exists for weighed up the decision about how I should the collection of the tax. It is essentially a vote for the measure. I decided to vote for tax upon the sales of licensed bottle mer­ 10 o'clock closing and I never regretted vot­ chants and the hotels, based upon their own ing for what I considered to be a genuine submissions to the Liquor Control Com­ reform. All liquor Bills are reform Bills in mission detailing the value of the products. one way or another. I appreciate that all the The commission can check through com­ provisions in liquor Bills do not suit every puterized records to gauge the honesty or section of the industry and that is a problem otherwise of the assessment. that no Government or inquiry can over­ However, when one turns to the fee placed come. on vignerons for cellar door sales, there is It has been said that the former Liberal no mechanism by which the Government Government did not do enough about the can check to ensure that the statements sub­ Davies inquiry. That is probably so, but the mitted to the Government for assessment results of inquiries cannot be acted upon are honest. The Government has failed to overnight. It is often four or five years be­ address this important problem. It is essen­ fore a Government implements recommen­ tially an honesty measure, based on the vig­ dations of such inquiries. nerons' own records without an ability of I should like to make a few comnlents on the commission to check those records. behalf of the hotelkeepers of small and fam­ I should not like to see further taxes placed ily hotels which have operated in northern on vignerons and wine merchants but, un­ Victoria for hundreds of years and served less the Government addresses the issue so the Bendi$o, Heathcote, Elmore and small that the measure can be checked by proper country dIstricts well during that time. In Government records, the hotels and lic­ many instances, the small hotels acted as ensed bottle merchants may be victimized. meeting places and community centres. The I beg the Government to take due note of small hotels are finding the reforms rather this point and to provide further amend­ difficult for their survival. Some hotelkee­ ments to the Bill so that a proper checking pers have already surrendered their licences mechanism can be instituted for cellar door and have gone out of operation. These sales. There is a perceivable dissatisfaction moves began when the late Sir Arthur among retail bottle sellers that they are par­ Rylah, through the auspices of the then Liq­ tially victimized in the sale of wine. As you uor Control Commission, decided to up­ know, Mr President, we are anxious to de­ grade country hotels. I do not consider that velop the Victorian wine industry. In one that was a bad move; it was a good measure. way, the retailers are victimized and the However, in future, Governments should vignerons are able to make cash sales which consider what these small hotels mean to mayor may not be recorded. Accordingly, I the surrounding communities. They should request the Government to take note of my be protected and encouraged to continue comments and, when preparing further pro­ because they are vital cogs in the Victorian posed legislation, to insert a proper mecha­ economy. There are not many hotels left in nism so that cellar door sales can be properly Bendigo when one compares the situation checked against the assessments. now to the situation many years ago. Many The Hon. F. J. GRANTER (Central of the old gold mining towns had an hotel Highlands Province)-As a member repre­ on every street corner. senting a country district, I have come to I am pleased that the Government took know many small hotels, some of which are note of the representations made to it about still in operation and some of which have removing the wine tax. Many vineyards closed down. I remember that the Phillips have experienced hard times and, although inquiry, which advocated 10 o'clock clos­ many of them are small, they are important ing, was undertaken at the time I first en­ contributors to country life. Some vine­ tered this place. At that time, the Liberal yards are very good and others are probably Party did not have a majority of members not so good, but the good ones will survive. in the Upper House and honourable mem­ As you would be aware, Mr President, in bers were afforded a conscience vote on the the provinces we represent, many vineyards 1126 COUNCIL 31 October 1984 Liquor Control (Amendment) Bill (No. 2) produce excellent wine. The retai~ bottle regarded radical change~ in such. a r,!-pid merchants have made representatIons to fashion. There was a behef that VIctonans country members asking that they be al­ should be provided with changes in licen­ lowed to open their businesses for one night sing laws in such a way that the changes a week. I do not know whether the Govern­ would be adapted gradually. ment has made an announcement about That belief was incorrect. The time was whether it is to be on a Thursday or a Fri­ right twenty years ago to introduce laws in day, but I should be interested to hear what relation to licensing and liquor controls that has been decided. The future Government would have better suited the community, as of this State should consider liquor reform it then was. Certainly, in 1984, the time is seriously and take note of the representa­ right for greater deregulation of the Liquor tions of the Australian Hotels Association, Control Act and greater deregulation of which represents hotels throughout the State Victoria's licensing laws. Much has been and, as I said earlier, many country hotels. made of the sophistication and different The Hon. M. J. ARNOLD (Templestowe lifestyles that exist in the U nited S~tes of Province)-The Bill introduces much America, Europe and England, partlculary needed deregulation of the liquor industry. in capital cities. The belief has been that A long time has passed since a report was those cities were more sophisticated and produced by the then Mr Davies, now Mr avant-garde than Melbourne and other Justice Davies, which dealt with rationaliz­ provincial cities in Victoria. I dispute that. ing the Victorian liquor laws. Mr Justice Victoria leads the way in a whole range of Davies had a vision, along with the now areas such as the arts and in entertainment deceased Mr P. D. Phillips, which touched and sporting events. The attitude taken by upon the entertainment industry in Vic­ earlier legislators towards accepting changes toria. They believed Victoria had for !oo in Victoria's licensing laws is a hangover long lived in the past. It had a reputatIon from the cultural cringe of which Austra­ for wowserism when it came to having sen­ lians are often accused. That attitude has sible and sophisticated liquor laws. long gone and it certainly does not exist in Improved laws would have been to the 1984 because I believe we can hold our own benefit of all Victorians who wanted to en­ in everything. Certainly, when it comes to joy a drink in relaxing circumstances, so­ drinking, we can hold our own today! phisticated circumstances or circumstances Victorians can drink in a sophisticated that befitted a community in the 1960s and and responsible manner, and I am sure the 1970s. Mr Justice Davies and Mr P. D. House would not want to entertain any pro­ Phillips had a vision that was far different posed legislation that would encourage Vic­ from the licensing laws that applied to the torians to drink in an excessive or detriment of proper and better entertain­ irresponsible manner. I am sure all honour­ ment in Victoria. able members provide fine examples of how Since the reports introduced by Mr P. D. people should be responsible when drinking Phillips, QC, and, subsequently, by Mr Jus­ in this State. ticeDavies, a change in attitude has oc­ curred towards drinking and entertainment The Bill introduces a series of amend­ in Victoria. Victoria has benefitted from the ments or reforms. I am certain that Mel­ changing attitudes to liquor laws, and this bourne and Victoria's major provincial has produced a more sophisticated and bet­ cities and other areas such as the Latrobe ter hotel and entertainment industry. The Valley will benefit from changes to liquor City of Melbourne, its suburbs and the laws. Victoria's tourist industry has devel­ provincial cities of Victoria, have better oped rapidly in recent years, and !o ~ke hostelries, hotels and restaurants which have advantage of these developments, thIS pIece added to the quality of life of Victorians. of proposed legislation will work hand in The recommendations proposed by Mr Jus­ glove. This is a subject on which I could tice Davies some time ago were not carried probably wax lyrical for some time, but I out in full, and that is unfortunate. There shall defer further contribution until the was a belief that a "softly, softly" approach Committee stage. should take place because of a fear that Vic­ The House divided on the motion (the torians would not take to some of the then Hon. F. S. Grimwade in the chair). Liquor Control (Amendment) Bill (No. 2) 31 October 1984 COU~CIL 1127

Ayes 36 the right to lodge an objection, if they so ~oes 3 desire. The amendment facilitates the adding of Majority for the motion 33 an additional clause that I will move for­ AYES mally in my next amendment. Mr Arnold MrKnowles The Hon. M. J. SANDON (Chelsea Mrs Baylor Mr Landeryou Province)-I oppose the amendment Mr Birrell MrLawson moved by Mr Bubb. Proceedings of the MrBlock MrLong commission should be as informal as pos­ MrBubb Mr Mackenzie sible. There is far too much formality in Mr Chamberlain MrMcArthur tribunals in many areas. Under the Bill, the MrConnard MrMier Government is attempting to allow people Mrs Cox sedge MrMurphy to have a direct involvement and to make Mrs Dixon MrRadford their points to the commission without ex­ MrGranter MrSandon cessive legalism. While I do not berate the MrGuest MrSgro MrHayward MrStorey legal profession-on occasions it is neces­ MrHenshaw MrWalker sary-in proceedings such as those of the Mrs Hogg MrWard commission as to whether a licence should Mr Hunt MrWhite be granted or renewed, the emphasis surely MrKennan should be placed on allowing a person to MrKennedy Tellers: make his point. Mr Kent MrPullen The Bill extends the period for notifica­ Mrs Kirner MrReid tion from fourteen to 28 days, so the com­ NOES munity will have double the opportunity of Mr Dunn Tellers: registering an interest. The clause also pro­ MrEvans vides for notification of the local council, MrWright the council being the most direct link with the public and the lowest level of link so far The Bill was read a second time and com- as elected representatives are concerned, and mitted. makes it mandatory for appropriate signs to Clauses 1 to 3 were agreed to. be displayed concerning the granting or re­ Clause 4 newal of a licence. The Hon. CLIVE BUBB (Ballarat Pro v­ Currently, debates concerning property ince)-I move: rights take up the overwhelming majority 1. Clause 4, line 19, omit "and", of the commission's time. I ask Mr Bubb what he means by "property rights" in re­ As I indicated in the second-reading debate, lation to the question of whether a licence the Government has changed the require­ should be granted or renewed. The commis­ ment offourteen days' notice to 28 days and sion has gone around in ever-decreasing has included requirements that an appli­ circles because no one can answer that ob­ cant notify the municipality, advertise the vious question. application in a newspaper and display a The Government is introducing a reform notice outside the premises concerned. to facilitate community involvement and Despite all of that, the Government has the right of the community to participate in endeavoured to cover in this provision what the process. To come back to a situation was covered by the old requirement that that allows excessive legalism and discus­ persons who may be adversely affected sion on property rights, as has happened should be notified. As I said in the second­ and as does happen, is a retrograde step. I reading debate, the Opposition believes oppose the amendment. persons should be notified if they will be The Hon. B. P. DUNN ~orth Western adversely affected either by damage to the Province)-The ~ational Party opposes the amenity of their lifestyle or by diminution amendment. The provisions concerning of the value of their property. Those people notification have been considerably ex­ are directly affected and should be notified panded. As outlined by Mr Sandon, the by the commission and should have their period for notification is extended from attention drawn to the fact that they have fourteen to 28 days; provision is made for 1128 COUNCIL 31 October 1984 Liquor Control (Amendment) Bill (No. 2) notification of councils, for signs to be dis­ . and Energy for clarification of the Minis­ played and-a point that Mr Sandon did ter's power to control and direct the com­ not mention-that newspaper advertising mission and its officers. Basically, I want to must also be undertaken. know to what extent this is an extension of The National Party believes those provi­ the situation that previously existed. In the sions are adequate. past, has the Minister had to confer or has he always had the right under the legislation Mr Bubb is asking the commission to no­ to have this degree of control over the com­ tify hundreds of people in that locality if it mission? . believes an application may prejudicially af­ fect the rights or property of any person. The National Party is concerned about That is a huge responsibilIty. The National the power the Minister would have under Party believes that is not necessary and in­ clause 5. I seek an explanation from the tends to vote against the amendment. Minister before the Committee proceeds The Committee divided on the question further. that the word proposed by Mr Bubb to be The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for omitted stand part of the clause (the Hon. Minerals and Energy)-My understanding K. I. M. Wright in the chair). of the interpretation of the clause, on ad­ Ayes 20 vice, is that the commission now has the Noes .. 17 power to direct the staff, and clause 5 gives the Minister power to direct the commis­ Majority against the sion in respect of the handling of the staff. amendment 3 It is confined to that. The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western AYES Province)-The clause does not read in that MrArnold MrMier way. Clause 5 provides that the commission Mrs Coxsedge MrMurphy may, subject to the general direction and MrsDixon MrPullen control of the Minister, direct the secretary, MrDunn MrSandon MrEvans MrSgro chief supervisor, supervisors, licensing fund MrHenshaw MrWalker assessors and other officers and employees MrKennan MrWhite in relation to the discharge of their several MrKennedy duties. MrKent Tellers: I understand that the Minister maintains MrsKirner MrsHogg that the direction is given via the commis­ Mr Mackenzie MrMcArthur sion, from the Minister. NOES The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for MrsBaylor MrLawson Minerals and Energy)-That is right-via Mr Birrell MrLong the commission. MrBlock MrRadford MrBubb MrReid The clause was agreed to, as was clause 6. Mr Chamberlain MrStorey Clause 7 MrGranter MrWard The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for MrGuest Tellers: MrHayward MrConnard Minerals and Energy)-I move: MrKnowles MrCrozier Clause 7, line 31, omit "and". PAIRS The next amendment is consequential on Mr Butler Mr Houghton this amendment, so I shall speak to the Mr Landeryou Mr Hunt principle embodied in that amendment. The principle is to introduce a late night permit The Hon. CLIVE BUBB (Ballarat Prov­ ince)-In the light of what has happened I for hotels which provide entertainment. shall not proceed with my second amend­ Conditions attaching to this permit would ment. be that the hotelkeeper must provide enter­ tainment and must have available on re­ The clause was agreed to. quest substantial refreshments. The Liquor Clause 5 Control Commission may grant these per­ The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western mits to cover the hours between midnight Province)-I ask the Minister for Minerals and 3 a.m. Liquor Control (Amendment) Bill (No. 2) 31 October 1984 COUNCIL 1129

An amendment of similar effect was in­ The Committee divided on the question troduced by the Opposition in another place that the word proposed by Mr White to be and, as I understand it, the Opposition in omitted stand part of the clause (the Hon. this place will propose another today. The K. I. M. Wright in the chair). amendment was not accepted by the Gov­ Ay~ 2 ernment because, as drafted, it did not pro­ No~ 29 vide for any entertainment or refreshments. As with all permits to be granted by the Majority for the amendment 27 commission, .the late night entertainment permit will be granted subject to residential AYES amenity and objectors, who may include Tellers: local councils and residents, will have am­ MrDunn ple opportunity, under the new notification MrEvans provisions, of having their objections con­ NOES sidered by the commission. MrArnold MrsKirner Because of the likely effect on residential MrsBaylor MrKnowles amenity, the Government does not expect Mr Birrell MrLawson a large number of these permits to be MrBlock Mr Mackenzie granted. It has been informally advised by MrBubb MrMcArthur Mr Chamberlain MrMurphy the Australian Hotels Association of its ex­ MrConnard MrPullen pectation that only 50 to 100 hotels might Mrs Cox sedge MrSandon apply for the permit. Honourable members Mrs Dixon MrSgro will be aware that entertainment of the na­ MrGuest MrStorey ture required by younger adults is not widely MrHenshaw MrWard available in venues other than at hotels. For MrsHogg MrWhite that reason, the Government has decided to MrKennan Tellers: move an amendment of this nature. MrKennedy MrMier MrKent MrReid The Government considers that the amendment will take up the matters raised The CHAIRMAN (the Hon. K. I. M. by the Opposition in another place and will Wright}-Order! My understanding is that more than cover any proposed amend­ the next amendments are consequential on ments that might be canvassed by the Op­ the first amendment. position here. The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for The Hon. CLIVE BUBB (Ballarat Prov­ Minerals and Energy)-The next four ince)-The Liberal Party will support the amendments are consequential on the first amendment. I foreshadow that I will pro­ amendment and, therefore, with the per­ ceed with my amendments that relate to mission of the Committee, I move: clause 7. Clause 7, after line 37, insert the following: The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western 'and Province)-The National Party will not (j) where a permit under sub-section (2) is in force support the amendment. To register its pro­ for the purposes of this paragraph, subject to test, it will divide on the amendment but and in accordance with the permit, for con­ sumption with or ancillary to entertainment be­ not on the consequential amendments that tween the hours of twelve midnight on any day relate to that provision. The Government is except Sunday or Good Friday and three in the proposing that, under the current proposal, following morning including a Sunday morn­ hotel trading will be allowed to continue ing;";'. until midnight without a supper permit and, Clause 7, line 43, omit "and (i)" and insert ", (I) and if the hotelkeeper wishes to continue trad­ (j)". ing after midnight, he or she may apply for Clause 7, page 4, after line 25, insert the following: a permit until 1 a.m., but the amendment '(3c) Where a permit is in force for the purposes of will extend that late night trading time until section 3 a.m. The extension is unnecessary. On 26. (1) (j ), a reference in sub-section (3) to ten o'clock that basis and in keeping with the philoso­ shall for the purposes of sub-section (3) (a) and (b) be phy of the party on this issue, the National deemed and taken to be a reference to three o'Clock in Party will vote against the proposed exten­ the morning being a morning following any day except sion. Sunday or Good Friday.".'. 1130 COUNCIL 31 October 1984 Liquor Control (Amendment) Bill (No. 2)

Clause 7, page 4, lines 26 to 30, omit sub-clauses (3) Ayes 29 and insert the following: Noes 2 '(3) In section 99 (1) of the Principal Act for para­ graph (b) and the word "and" (where occurring im­ Majority for the clause 27 mediately before that paragraph) there shall be sub­ stituted the following: AYES "(b) refreshments at all times during ordinary trading MrAmold MrLawson hours and, where a permit is in force for the MrsBaylor Mr Mackenzie purposes of section 26 (1) (h) or (I), during the MrBlock MrMcArthur hours during which liquor may be sold or MrBubb MrMier disposed of pursuant to that permit; and MrConnard MrMurphy (c) where a permit is in force for the purposes of Mrs Coxsedge MrPullen section 26 (1) (j), substantial refreshments at MrsDixon MrRadford all times during the hours which liquor may be MrGranter MrReid sold or disposed of pursuant to that permit.".'. MrHenshaw MrSgro MrsHogg MrStorey The amendments were agreed to. MrKennan MrWard The Committee divided on the clause, as MrKennedy MrWhite amended (the Hon. K. I. M. Wright in the MrKent Tellers: chair). MrsKimer Mr Birrell MrKnowles . MrSandon Ayes 28 Noes 2 NOES Tellers: Majority for the clause, as MrDunn amended 26 MrEvans AYES Clause 12 MrArnold MrLawson The HOD. B. P. DUNN (North Western MrsBaylor Mr Mackenzie Province)-This clause seeks to extend MrBirrell MrMcArthur theatre licences to cinemas. It will allow MrBlock MrMier cinemas to be licensed to serve alcoholic MrBubb MrMurphy beverages from 6.30 p.m. until 12 midni$ht. Mr Chamberlain MrReid MrConnard MrSandon In line with the National Party's vIew Mrs Coxsedge MrSgro against the extension of those hours, it is its MrsDixon MrStorey intention to divide on this clause. MrGranter MrWard The Committee divided on the clause (the MrHenshaw MrWhite Hon. K. I. M. Wright in the chair). MrsHogg MrKennan Tellers: Ayes 31 MrKennedy MrGuest Noes 2 MrsKimer MrPullen Majority for the clause 29 NOES Tellers: AYES MrDunn Mr Arnold MrLong MrEvans MrsBaylor Mr Mackenzie Clauses 8 to 10 were agreed to. Mr Birrell MrMcArthur Clause 11 MrBubb MrMier Mr Chamberlain MrMurphy The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western MrConnard MrPullen Province)-Clause 11 allows· a .cabaret to MrsDixon MrRadford sell and dispose of liquor until 7 a.m. The MrGranter MrReid clause extends the closure of cabarets from MrHenshaw MrSandon 3 a.m. to 7 a.m. and, to be consistent in its MrsHogg MrSgro attitude on the Bill, the National Party op­ MrKennan MrStorey poses the extension of trading hours of MrKennedy MrWard MrKent MrWhite cabarets. MrsKimer Tellers: The Committee divided on the clause (the MrKnowles MrBlock Hon. K. I. M. Wright in the chair). MrLawson Mrs Coxsedge Liquor Control (Amendment) Bill (No. 2) 31 October 1984 COUNCIL 1131

NOES port among most of the business commu­ Tellers: nity in Victoria-- MrDunn An Honourable Member-What about MrEvans the red meat issue? Clause 13 was agreed to. The Hon. B. P. DUNN-That issue is Clause 14 not a matter of extension of trading hours; The Hon. CLIVE BUBB (Ballarat Prov­ it is a matter of what one can sell. Anybody ince)-I move: who knew about that matter would know that it does not relate to that extension of Clause 14, after line 21, insert the following: trading hours but to selling items during '(b) on Sundays, between the hours of twelve noon existing hours. That is what the red meat and eight in the evening;'. issue is about. The purpose of the amendment is to insert The amendment moved by Mr Bubb in clause 14 a provision that allows the means that retail liquor shops would be al­ holder of a retail bottled liquor license to lowed to operate on Sundays between 12 open their premises between the hours of noon and 8 p.m. in the evening. It would 12 noon and 8 p.m. on Sundays. I have also allow supermarkets that have retailliq­ already canvassed these matters during the uor sections to open and, frankly, the Na­ second-reading debate and I shall not take tional Party cannot accept it at any price up the time of the Committee by referring and will vote against the amendment. to them again. Because other liquor outlets are able to open on Sundays, the Opposi­ The Commitee divided on Mr Bubb's tion believes equality of opportunity in the amendment (the Hon. K. I. M. Wright in trade should be given to retail bottled liquor the chair). licenceholders and, for that reason, the Ayes 17 amendment will allow those licensees to Noes 20 open on Sundays. The Hon. M. J. SANDON (Chelsea Majority against the Province)-The Government opposes the amendment 3 amendment. The aim of the proposed leg­ AYES islation is to view the liquor laws of this Mrs Baylor Mr Hayward State, not to extend trading hours, which is Mr Birrell Mr Knowles the import of the amendment moved by Mr Mr Block Mr Lawson Bubb. If that area were opened up it would Mr Bubb Mr Reid allow the large supermarkets to trade in Fifth Mr Chamberlain Mr Storey Schedule and Sixth Schedule items and open Mr Connard Mr Ward up a Pandora's box on this issue. Mr Crozier Tellers: Mr Granter Mr Long Honourable members interjecting. Mr Guest Mr Radford The CHAIRMAN (the Hon. K. I. M. Wright)-Order! Too many honourable NOES members are interjecting and, even worse, Mr Amold Mr Mier Mrs Coxsedge Mr Murphy they are interjecting from out of their places. Mrs Dixon Mr Pullen The Hon. M. J. SANDON-This Bill Mr Dunn Mr Sandon concerns the reforming of liquor laws of this Mr Evans Mr Sgro State and not extending shopping hours, Mrs Hogg Mr Walker and, as such, Mr Bubb's amendment should Mr Kennan Mr White Mr Kent be rejected. Mrs Kimer Tellers: The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western Mr Mackenzie Mr Henshaw Province)-At least the National Party is Mr McArthur Mr Kennedy consistent in its opposition to the proposals contained in the Bill. What Mr Bubb is sug­ PAIRS gesting by this amendment goes one step Mr Houghton Mr Butler further. He is saying-and this is in line Mr Hunt Mr Landeryou with the Opposition's open slather, free-for­ The Hon. CLIVE BUBB (Ballarat Prov­ all shop trading policy, which has no sup- ince)-In view of the decision of the Com- 1132 COUNCIL 31 October 1984 Liquor Control (Amendment) Bill (No. 2) mittee, I shall not proceed with the next five Wednesday which was not a public holiday amendments circulated in my name. shall be the day upon which late night trad­ The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for ing can take place until 9 p.m. Minerals and Energy)-I move: The amendment was agreed to. Clause 14, lines 25 and 26, omit "the day in each The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for week other than Saturday or Sunday specified in the Minerals and Energy)-I move: licence" and insert "Fridays". Clause 14, page 12, lines 22 to 29, omit sub-clause The amendment restricts the night upon (3). which the holder of a retail bottled liquor licence may conduct late night trading until This amendment is consequential, and sim­ 9 p.m. to Fridays. ply' removes the provision under which re­ tail bottled liquor license holders could At present, the clause provides that retail nominate their late trading night. bottled liquor license holders may nomi­ nate any week night to be their late trading The amendment was agreed to, and the night. However, the Retail Liquor Mer­ clause, as amended, was adopted. chants Association of Victoria has written Clause 15 to the Minister in another place requesting The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western that the one late night be restricted to Fri­ Province)-I invite the Committee to vote days. I understand that the president of the against this clause. I foreshadow that I shall association has also had discussions with move to insert a new clause to follow clause other parties and that there is general agree­ 14 and that the new clause circulated in the ment upon this amendment. This point was amendments listed in my name will be raised by Mr Bubb during the second-read­ amended so that paragraphs (a) (ii) and (b) ingdebate. shall have deleted the words "on payment The purpose of the amendment is to pre­ of the prescribed fee". vent the holders of retail bottled liquor The amended new clause I foreshadow licenses who form part of a retail chain to, will overcome a situation where vignerons in effect, adopt a roster system of opening must have one licence and two other per­ to the possible disadvantage of smaller in­ mits to operate. The foreshadowed amended dependent retailers. The amendment will new clause incorporates the licence and per­ also make the late night trading. provision mits into one licence and the whole of those for retail bottled liquor licences easier to fees into one licence fee. Section 35 of the police. Act prescribes a vigneron's licence to allow The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western the sale and disposal of liquor on the prem­ Province)-The National Party supports the ises, and so on; sub-section (3A) prescribes amendment, which will specify that the a permit to supply gratuitous liquor for tast­ evening of 9 p.m. trading will have to be a ing, and so on, for which there is a fee of Friday. I explained during the second-read­ $58; and sub-section (3A) prescribes a fur­ ing debate the support of the National Party ther permit to sell and dispose of liquor on for this amendment. the premises in quantities of not less than The amendment was agreed to. 370 millilitres and for consumption off the The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for premises between certain hours for which Minerals and Energy)-I move: there is a fee of$58. Clause 14, page 12, after line 17, insert the following: The National Party proposes that in­ "(11) Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in stead of the licence and permits being sepa­ this section, where a Friday is observed as a public rate fees, they be incorporated into one lic­ holiday, a licensee shall be authorized to sell and dis­ ence and, further, those fees be incorporated pose ofliquor in accordance with sub-section (1) (c) on into one fee. This would considerably assist the last day preceding that Friday that was not ob­ easier administration of the system. The served as a public holiday. foreshadowed amended new clause also (12) In sub-section (11), "public holiday" means a takes into account the extra 2 hours exten­ day on which a shop is required pursuant to section 80 sion provided in the clause, as the Govern­ (2) of the Labour and Industry Act 1958 to be closed.'.". ment proposes for the words "12 noon" Where a Friday falls on a public holiday, there shall be substituted the words "ten in the immediately preceding Thursday or the morning". Liquor Control (Amendment) Bill (No. 2) 31 October 1984 COUNCIL 1133

The Hon. CLIVE BUBB (Ballarat Prov­ Clause 19 ince)-The Opposition has no objection to The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western the National Party's suggestion. It is a sen­ Province)-This clause extends the hours sible proposal. It amalgamates a series of in respect of club licences and it brings in a existing licences and permits. new provision to allow for the licence to be The Hon. M. J. SANDON (Chelsea extended to include midnight to 1 a.m. on a Province)-The Government is also of the Sunday morning. Also, instead of the two view that the proposition put forward by periods of noon to 2.30 p.m. and 4.30 p.m. the Leader of the National Party is appro­ to 8 p.m., it will allow for trading to take priate, and will support it. place between noon and 8 p.m., and from The clause was negatived. 10 a.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Sunday. Clause 16 These three provisions basically extend the hours during which clubs can provide The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western alcoholic beverages for their guests, mem­ Province)-The clause extends Sunday bers, persons employed by the clubs and so trading as it relates to cider tavern licences on. It is a further extension that the and, in line with the National Party's op­ National Party does not believe is necessary position to extended trading, particularly on at this time and it will vote against the Sundays, the National Party will vote clause. against the clause. The Committee divided on the clause (the The Hon. M. J. ARNOLD (Templestowe Hon. K. I. M. Wright in the chair). Province)-The growth of cider taverns in Melbourne and provincial cities has re­ Ayes 28 sulted from a recent change in drinking laws Noes .. 2 and represents changes in drinking habits. I have spent some enjoyable hours in those Majority for the clause 26 places. The provision extending the oppor­ AYES tunity of drinking in cider taverns should MrAmold Mr Mackenzie be supported. Mr Birrell MrMcArthur The Committee divided on the clause (the MrBlock MrMier Hon. K. I. M. Wright in the chair). MrBubb MrMurpby MrConnard Mr Pullen Ayes 28 Mrs Dixon MrReid Noes .. 2 MrGranter MrSandon MrGuest MrSgro Majority for the clause 26 MrHenshaw MrStorey MrsHogg MrWard AYES MrKennan MrWbite MrsBaylor MrLawson MrKennedy Mr Birrell MrMcArtbur MrKent Tellers: MrBlock MrMier Mrs Kirner MrsBaylor MrConnard MrMurpby MrKnowles Mrs Coxsedge Mrs Coxsedge MrPullen MrsDixon MrReid NOES MrGranter MrSandon Tellers: MrGuest MrSgro MrDunn MrHensbaw MrStorey MrEvans MrsHogg MrWard Clauses 20 to 26 were agreed to. MrKennan MrWbite MrKennedy Clause 27 was verbally amended, and, as MrKent Tellers: amended, was adopted, as were clauses 28 MrsKimer MrAmold to 30. MrKnowles MrBubb Clause 31 was verbally amended, and, as NOES amended, was adopted, as were clauses 32 Tellers: to 37. MrDunn Clause 38 MrEvans The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Clauses 17 and 18 were agreed to. Minerals and Energy)-I move: Session 1984-42 1134 COUNCIL 31 October 1984 Liquor Control (Amendment) Bill (No. 2)

Clause 38, line 34, after "trade" insert "union". The Hon. M. J. SANDON (Chelsea The amendment was agreed to. Province)-I support the clause. Mr Bubb The Hon. CLIVE BUBB (Ballarat Prov­ has not canvassed the whole issue. Mr Lan­ ince)-The Liberal Party is opposed to the deryou and I indicated specific cases relat­ clause, as amended. Mr Landeryou went to ing to the exploitation of staff in a most great lengths to explain that the industrial direct way. Trade unions should be able to legislation in the State allows for the right consider the way in which people are treated of entry of trade union officials into a work in a social sense. Councils have the right to place, including the liquor industry. The object to licences, and individuals also have Opposition believes industrial legislation is that right. Members of the community will the right place and is the only appropriate have a say about who may get a licence and place for clauses of this kind. It is obvious who may not, who may have a licence re­ that the purpose of this clause is to enable newed and who may not. Those measures trade union officials to argue that the appli­ are contained in the Act. The Opposition cant for a grant, renewal of permit or licence wishes to exclude members of the trade is in breach of the Liquor Control Act 1968. union, and I suggest it is the ideological That sort of breach is viewed by the Liquor makeup of the Liberal Party that will not Control Commission as a much more seri­ allow the trade union movement to have an ous breach than a breach of industrial law. involvement in the industry. Matters that relate to the employment of The Government says that by complying personnel within an organization are di­ with an award condition in obtaining a liq­ rectly covered by industrial law. They uor licence it will add that other dimension. should not be covered by this Bill. The Bill It will give a two-pronged approach in that relates to the selling ofliquor and control of the union will be able to make a review of the industry. That is the only clause in the whether an operation is carried on in the Bill which goes to the conditions of employ­ interests of the community. It will add a ment and the way in which persons will be further element and will give the trade union employed in the industry. movement, which has some understanding I un4ers~nd. Mr Sandon mentioned, by of the nature of the industry and the work way of InterjectlOn, the topless waitresses in force within it, the right to make a submis­ Dandenong. I understand Mr Landeryou sion in terms of compliance, which is a fun­ mentioned the requirements of persons damental matter that should be endorsed. going to bed with the licensee or stipulated customers. As Mr Landeryou pointed out The Hon. CLIVE BUBB (Ballarat Prov­ the liquor industry is the most highly regu: ince )-It is clear that Mr Sandon did not lated industry in the country and there are listen to what I said the first time or, if he other ways that the industry can be regu­ did he did not address that matter. No sug­ lated without giving trade union officials the gestion has been made by myself or my party right to be members of the Police Force. that the liquor trade union should not be Trade union officials have the right of entry involved in the liquor trade. No suggestion has been made that it should not have right u~der the awar~. ~hey have the ability to raIse matters WIthIn the Industrial Rela­ of entry and that its officers should not have tions Commission or, if it is a breach of the right to take up matters on behalf of its some statute, they may raise the matter membership. Those are the matters alluded within the confines of that statute. They to by Mr Sandon and they are matters I have the necessary powers, as Mr Lander­ have not interfered with in any way. you indicated earlier and Mr Sandon indi­ The rights of union officials to come on cated by interjection. They have the power site to take up or discuss matters with their of entry and the right to talk to people on members or to take up matters with em­ site about whether the practices mentioned ployers, the industrial commission or any­ earlier are carried on. The clause should not one else, have not been interfered with, but be included in the Bill as it is a means of I make the point that it is the appropriate giving the trade union movement more role of a union official to take up with the power than it currently has within the in­ appropriate persons the matters the hon­ dustry. The Opposition is opposed to that ourable member is speaking about where clause. coercion is being used and where people Liquor Control (Amendment) Bill (No. 2) 31 October 1984 COUNCIL 1135 who want to keep their job are being re­ the Act but by their own awards and indus­ quired to appear topless and so on. trial legislation, as that is the correct place There are statutes that cover those mat­ for these matters to be covered. Union rep­ ters and there are other avenues available resentatives have a right to provide a degree within the industrial commission. Mr San­ of protection to people involved in these don must have misconstrued totally what I establishments as unionists. said because I stated that those rights are The National Party believes there is legitimate rights; they are covered under the something in the clause which sets the alarm industrial award and that is where they be­ bells ringing. It seeks to extend the power of long. I also said that including a right which the unions. If that is not the case, it will be currently exists under another law in this difficult to convince the National Party be­ Bill is a duplication and a two-edged prong; cause the Government is writing provisions it attacks the renewal or granting of a lic­ into a Bill concerning the Liquor Control ence to an applicant for a licence or permit. Act which give the unions a greater degree Ifa person is a good employer, that is one of power to enter into premises and to con­ argument, but if a person is a restauranter duct investigations not only of employee or licensee, that is another argument en­ matters but also of records and every aspect tirely. The two can be inter-related but not of their employment. The National Party necessarily so. By tying them together it is does not consider there is any reason for wrong to include in the statutes a law that that provision. can be used against, a person applying for a The HOD. B. W. MIER (Waverley Prov­ licence or its renewal and that is why the ince)-I support the provision and take up Opposition opposes it. a number of points that have been raised by The HOD. M. J. SANDON (Chelsea Mr Bubb and Mr Dunn. They both clearly Province)-The submission made by Mr indicated that these provisions are already Bubb supports the argument I made, that in existence under a number of Acts and is, it should be maintained within the Bill. probably the most relevant one is the liquor In terms of taking up cases where an em­ trades award. It is wrong to state that those ployer misuses or mishandles his staff, in provisions are for the purpose of protecting something outside an award condition, employees wages and conditions. There are where does that organization go? Clearly, in a number of areas of concern that must be a situation such as this, the question is examined where the interests of unions are whether that employer should remain within involved, such as workers compensation the industry. The issue should be taken up payments. with the appropriate body that regulates the The liquor industry employs a large num­ industry. ber of part-time and casual employees and What Mr Bubb has said endorses the the industry is rife with cases of employers point I am making; there is no better point who do not meet their legal obligations un­ to take up with the Liquor Control Com­ der the Workers Compensation Act, which mission than that to determine whether that is not covered by industrial award. The in­ employer is appropriate and whether his dustry is riddled with cash-in-hand pay­ presence should be maintained in the in­ ments; there are often no pay books or pay­ dustry. roll tax records kept. Those provisions are The HOD. B. P. DUNN (North Western not spelt out in the industry award, but they Province)-I indicated during the second­ are matters that concern the industry. Ifone reading speech that the National Party does were to suggest that the role of a publican is not like the clause. After listening to Mr legitimately dissociated with that of the role Sandon and Mr Bubb, I indicate that Mr of employer, then one would be completely Sandon has not convinced the National wrong. To be a good employer, be it restaur­ Party to change its mind. The final com­ ateur or a publican, one must be a good ments of Mr Bubb, which may not have employer or otherwise one will not conduct been picked up by honourable members be­ a successful business. cause of disorderly interjections, were that If a publican takes short cuts, he will end the conditions 'of employees operating un­ up with industrial problems and also legal der the establishments controlled by the problems brought by departments that are Liquor Control, Act are dealt with not by responsible to the Government and Parlia- 1136 COUNCIL 31 October 1984 Liquor Control (Amendment) Bill (No. 2) ment. This Committee has an obligation to brings the various permits relating to vig­ ensure that those le~~tl obligations are met, nerons under one licence only. I fore­ irrespective of the Industry. In. the liquor shadow a further amendment to the new industry, those evasive practices are preva­ clause to be proposed so that it applies to lent and unions should have the ri~t to only one fee instead of a number of fees for raise these matters, not only on an Indus­ each of the licences and permits. Therefore, triru award basis but also at the commis­ I shall omit the phrase "on payment of the sion. An employer or publican could be a prescribed fee" from new sub-sections (1) bad employer. (a) (ii) and (b). That means that there will I support the Bill as it is one that acts in be one licence fee, and that will assist everyone's interests in the long-term and in vignerons and those who administer var­ the long-term it will protect that industry. ious licences and permits. The Committee divided on the clause, as Therefore, I move: amended (the Hon. K. I. M. Wright in the Insert the following new clause to follow clause 14: chair). AmendmeI}t provisions relating to vignerons' lic­ Ayes 18 ences. Noes 19 'A. In section 35 of the Principal Act- (a) for sub-section (1) there shall be substituted the Majority against the clause following sub-section: "( 1) a vigneron's licence shall authorize the licen­ AYES see- MrArnold MrMurphy (a) to sell and dispose ofliquor on the premise spec­ Mrs Cox sedge MrPullen ified in the licence in quantities of not less than 370 MrHenshaw MrSandon millilitres and for consumption off the premises- MrKennan MrSgro (i) between the hours of nine in the morning and six MrKennedy MrWalker in the evening on any day except Sunday, Good Friday MrKent MrWhite and Anzac Day and on Anzac Day between the hours MrsKirner of one in the afternoon and six in the evening; and Mr Mackenzie Tellers: MrMcArthur MrsDixon (ii) between the hours often in the morning and six MrMier MrsHogg in the evening on a Sunday and if Anzac Day falls on a Sunday between the hours of one in the afternoon and NOES six in the evening; and Mr Birrell MrKnowles (b) to supply liquor (whether in quantities of more MrBlock MrLawson or less than 370 millilitres) gratuitously on the prem­ MrBubb MrLong ises of the vigneron to intending purchasers and clients MrConnard MrRadford for consumption on those premises."; MrCrozier MrReid (b) sub-sections (3A), (38), (3c), (3D) and (3E) shall MrDunn MrStorey be repealed; and MrEvans MrWard (c) in sub-section (5) the words "and any permit MrGuest Tellers: under this section" shall be repealed.'. MrHayward Mr Chamberlain MrHunt MrGranter The Hon. M. J. 8ANDON (Chelsea Province)-The Government considers that PAIRS the new clause, particularly the further Mr Butler Mrs Baylor amendments in relation to providing for a Mr Landeryou Mr Houghton single fee, is reasonable, and the Govern­ Clause 39 was verbally amended, and, as ment will accept the proposed new clause amended, was adopted, as were the remain­ suggested by Mr Dunn. ing clauses. The new clause was agreed to. New clauses The Hon. CLIVE BUBB (Ballarat Prov- The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western ince)-I move: Province)-1 foreshadowed a proposed new Insert the following new clause to follow clause 43: clause when I suggested that the Committee Transfer of Australian wine licences. omit clause 15. I commend my colleague in 'A. The holder of an Australian wine licence under another place, the honourable member for section 39 ofthe Principal Act shall be entitled to apply Murray Valley, Mr Jasper, as he has been to the Secretary of the Liquor Control Commission for largely responsible for the proposal, which a retail bottled liquor licence under section 32 of the Dangerous Goods (Road Transport) Bill 31 October 1984 COUNCIL 1137

Principal Act, and forthwith upon such an application tablished the T AFE Teaching Service and being made the Secretary shall issue the retail bottled for the first time established an autono­ liquor licence and the Australian wine licence shall mous technical and further education sys­ cease to have effect.'. tem in Victoria. This matter arises from approaches that The effect of the separation of the colleges have been made to me by some holders of from the Education Department was that wine licences who believe their position has they lost the protection afforded by the work been superseded by the provisions included experience provisions of Part IV A of the in the Bill. Because of that, they are seeking Education Act 1958. to have the licences automatically trans­ To ensure that appropriate legislative ar­ ferred to retail bottled liquor licences. I have rangements were introduced to enable advised the persons concerned that I would T AFE colleges to continue to provide the put forward the matter on their behalf, and placement of students in industry and com­ I ask the Committee to consider it. merce and to ensure that all interested par­ The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for ties were in agreement the Chairman of the Minerals and Energy)-The Government T AFE Board, Mr Peter Kirby, chaired a has considered the merits of the new clause consultative committee which included proposed by Mr Bubb and indicates that representatives of the Victorian Trades Hall that there is no evidence that there has been Council, T AFE teachers, and T AFE college agreement in the industry about this mat­ councils and principals. Those consulta­ ter. It is for that reason that the Govern­ tions have paved the way for a coherent ment opposes the new clause. approach to practical placement in our The new clause was negatived. T AFE colleges of which this Bill forms part. There are three clearly defined areas in The Bill was reported to the House with technical and further education which in­ amendments, and passed through its re­ volve practical placement. The first con­ maining stages. cerns certificate and middle level courses. Practical placement is now available for DANGEROUS GOODS (ROAD T AFE students participating in these ac­ TRANSPORT) BILL credited certificate and middle level courses This Bill was received from the Assembly in accordance with the provisions of the and, on the motion of the Hon. D. R. Industrial Relations Act 1979. WHITE (Minister for Minerals and En­ That legislation provides for the Regis­ ergy), was read a first time. trar of the Industrial Relations Commis­ sion to grant exemptions concerning the POST-SECONDARY EDUCATION payment of appropriate salaries and related (PRACTICAL PLACEMENTS) BILL matters to students from various educa­ This Bill was received from the Assembly tional institutions who are placed in indus­ and, on the motion of the Hon. D. R. try or commerce as part of their courses. WHITE (Minister for Minerals and En­ Secondly, the Bill provides for practical ergy), was read a first time. placement for T AFE students who are par­ The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for ticipating in courses of study which are Minerals and Energy)-I move: clearly analogous to secondary level courses of study in schools, such as tertiary orien­ That this Bill be now read a second time. tation programmes and vocational orienta­ The Bill will enable technical and further tion programmes. education colleges to undertake practical The third area relates to programmes placement programmes, which are the which are not accredited, or are not clearly equivalent of work experience programmes analogous to secondary level courses of in the secondary schools. study. These programmes can be defined as The Bill corrects a circumstance which transition or participation and equity pro­ arose from the separation of a number of grammes. T AFE colleges from the Education Depart­ In this area it has been decided to await ment in 1981, and subsequent amendments the outcome of the Commonwealth Gov­ in 1983 to the Post-Secondary Education ernment's review into labour market pro­ Act 1978 which, amongst other matters, es- grammes given the fact that the 1138 COUNCIL 31 October 1984 Pre-School Teachers and Assistants Bill recommendations in the interim report of ployed by subsidized kindergartens in this that review dealt with the issue of amalga­ State. mating job creation and job subsidy pro­ For nihny years, the Kindergarten Teach­ grammes with T AFE transition ers Association of Victoria has been seeking programmes. portability of service for long service leave The Bill is an important component of or sick leave purposes for kindergarten our over-all approach to practical place­ teachers employed in various areas of State ment for TAFE students and will enable subsidized employment. those students affected to benefit from work A scheme of portability of long service experience in 1985. I commend the Bill to leave was introduced by the previous Gov­ the House. ernment on 1 January 1980 by administra­ The Hon. A. J. HUNT (South Eastern tive action. The essence of this scheme Province)-The Bill deserves all-party sup­ involved centres accepting credits accord­ port and the Opposition wishes it the speed­ ing to a conversion scale of equivalent years iest possible passage. of service under the different accrual sys­ On the motion of the Hon. B. P. DUNN tems. (North Western Province), the debate was However, the weakness in the scheme in­ adjourned. cludes the fact that it was not endorsed by the Municipal Association of Victoria, that It was ordered that the debate be ad­ it works on a voluntary basis, and that it journed until the next day of meeting. lacks permanent status. I might mention to the House at this point P~HOOLTEACHERSAND that teachers working in local government ASSISTANTS (PORTABILITY OF operated kindergartens are entitled under LONG SERVICE LEAVE) BILL section 167 A (2) of the Local Government The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Act to three months' leave after ten years of Minerals and Energy)-I move: service. Teachers working in committee of management operated centres are entitled That this Bill be now read a second time. under section 67 of the Industrial Relations In its health platform for the last State elec­ Act to three months' long service leave after tion, the Labor Party undertook, among fifteen years' service. other things, to "introduce a system ofcom­ A working party established by the Health plete portability of sick leave and long serv­ Commission, including representatives of Ice leave entitlement for (pre-school) the Kindergarten Teachers Association, the teachers transferring from one (subsidized) Department of Labour and Industry, the pre-school programme to another". Ministry of Industrial Affairs, the Munici­ The object of the Bill is to provide for the pal Association of Victoria and the Victo­ portability of long service leave credits for rian Employers Federation has expressed the kindergarten teachers and assistants in ac­ view that portability of sick leave could be cordance with the Government's election achieved by an amendment to the award, policy commitment. Kindergarten staff in but pointed out that the question of long Victoria are employed by a number pf service leave was more difficult and should authorities. be resolved by legislation. These consist of local government oper­ The Bill, therefore, not only reflects an ated kindergartens; local committee of undertaking given by the Labor Party, but management operated kindergartens­ also takes up a recommendation made by many of which are operated by religious or the working party representing the various charitable organizations and which are, by interests concerned. I· might add that on the far, the largest employer of kindergarten grounds of industrial equity that the Gov­ teachers in this State; committee of man­ ernment has extended this principle to in­ agement operated day training centres clude the small number of play leaders and funded by the Health Commission; and a assistants at subsidized pre-school play small number of kindergarten teachers em­ centres. There are about 45 pre-school play ployed in public hospitals. All in all, about centres still operating in Victoria. 2000 kindergarten teachers, and a similar Some play leaders hold kindergarten number of kindergarten assistants, are em- qualifications and if a play centre were up- Post-Secondary Education Bill 31 October 1984 COUNCIL 1139 graded to a kindergarten, a staff member in scinded and that it be made an Order of the Day for possession of such a qualification could be later this day. appointed as a kindergarten teacher. Play The motion was agreed to. centre assistants share the same award as The debate (adjourned from earlier this kindergarten assistants. day) on the motion of the Hon. D. R. White (Minister for Minerals and Energy) for the In the circumstances, the Government has second reading of this Bill was resumed. taken the view that play leaders and assist­ The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western ants at pre-school play centres should be Province)-The National Party has no ob­ covered by the same scheme of portability jection to the Bill. Earlier I did not have oflong service leave as will apply to kinder­ sufficient notice to be able to consider its garten teachers and assistants in subsidized implications. After consulting my advisers, employment. The Bill before the House is I am informed that the Bill is all right and relatively straight forward and will give leg­ the National Party is happy for it to be islative effect to commitments made by both passed. the former and the present Governments. I The motion was agreed to. commend the Bill to the House. The Bill was read a second time. On the motion of the Hon. CLIVE BUBB The Hon. B. P. WHITE (Minister for (Ballarat Province), the debate was ad­ Minerals and Energy)-By leave, I move: journed. That this Bill be now read a third time. It was ordered that the debate be ad­ I thank honourable members for their journed until the next day of meeting. support. The motion was agreed to, and the Bill POST-SECONDARY EDUCATION was read a third time. (PRACTICAL PLACEMENTS) BILL ADJOURNMENT The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Minerals and Energy)-By leave, I move: Minerals and Energy)-I move: That the Order of the House making the resumption That the Council, at its rising, adjourn until tomor­ ofthe debate on the second reading of the Post-Second­ row at half-past ten o'clock. ary Education (Practical Placements) Bill an Order of The motion was agreed to. the Day for the next day of meeting be read and re- The House adjourned at 6.11 p.m. 1140 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Death ofthe Prime Minister ofIndia

Thursday, 1 November 1984 and her independence of mind were evi­ denced by the fact that, although she came from a wealthy family, she espoused views The PRESIDENT (the Hon. F. S. Grim­ left of centre and dedicated her life to the wade) took the chair at 10.34 a.m. and read progressive elimination of poverty. That was the prayer. her main aim. It was her often expressed DEATH OF THE PRIME MINISTER regret that she had not progressed further OF INDIA more quickly, but she did at least make great progress in a country in which the extremes The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for of wealth and poverty were real indeed. Planning and Environment)-I move: She was a great figure in her own right on That the Legislative Council of the State of Victoria the world scene. She kept India unaligned deeply laments the untimely death of the Prime Min­ with either of the major world powers and, ister of India, Mrs Indira Gandhi, records its admira­ in doing so, maintaIned a third force for tion of her leadership and her commitment to peaceful peace. She made an enormous contribution understanding among nations, and expresses its deep sympathy to her family and the people oflndia in their to stability in the world. sad loss. Mr President, India is a country which It is a great shock when a tragedy of this has long had some elements of discrimina­ magnitude occurs. It strikes especially tion between men and women and yet it has deeply for those of us, such as members of been to the forefront in respect for women this House, who have elected to take on and in recognition of women as leaders. public life. I am sure members of this House Going back before democratic days, there will join with me in hoping and praying that were many great women amongst the lead­ there be some immediate stability brought ers of India-princesses, maharinis and the to bear in India because of the dangers that like-who frequently led their particular follow such an outrageous action. I know states often for years and offered great inspi­ other members of this House will want to ration. None, however, has been greater than make comment. I simply record on behalf Indira Gandhi, and we pay tribute to the of all of us that this Parliament is deeply service and leadership she has rendered to shocked by the tradegy that has occurred. her country and to the world. The Hon. A. J. HUNT (South Eastern The HOD. B. P. DUNN (North Western Province)-We on the Opposition side of Province)-The tragic death of Mrs Indira the House mourn the passing of Indira Gandhi, one of the great Leaders of the Gandhi and are shocked by the manner of modem world, brings home to all of us as its occurrence. India is a country which is individuals the enormous courage of people deeply committed to democracy, although who lead nations such as India. These Lead­ it came to it comparatively late. Crimes of ers, with great courage, find themselves un­ this kind-assassination of a Prime Minis­ der threat from assassins or of some violence ter-strike at the roots ofdemocracy, which every day. The threats are probably known depends on a free exchange of views and the to them, but they have to live with that voice of the people being heard and acted cloud hanging over their heads and carry upon rather than the imposition ofviews by out their duties without it having any real violence no matter how well justified the effect on their judgment, their duties or their views may be thought to be. ~ontact with the people they represent. We trust that those responsible will re­ The courage that Indira Gandhi and other flect on the long-term consequences of their Leaders of the world have to exhibit is a action for independence and indeed for de­ lesson to everyone. It is a sad reflection on mocracy itself. the world today that a person who is pre­ Mrs Gandhi was by any standards a great pared to take a stand and become a great woman, referred to once by the Times of Leader not only suffers the sacrifices that it London as the most powerful woman in the entails but also has to put up with the dan­ world. She was indeed the first woman to gers and difficulties that the position holds. head a major nation. She came from a fam­ These people are making major contribu­ ily deeply imbued with a sense of service tions to the peace of the world and yet they and duty. Her own sense of service and duty are under threat of their own lives. Death a/the Prime Minister a/India 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1141

I remember Indira Gandhi well when she sues that confronted her own people. She was in Melbourne for the Commonwealth had within herself that depth of character Heads of Government Meeting some years and feeling that probably demonstrated the ago. I attended that meeting and I remem­ type of courage one wishes to see in a Leader. ber her presence on that occasion when she At the same time, she had a degree of sym­ was with the heads of nations from around pathy and warmth for her people, which the world. Mrs Gandhi was the Leader of a was symbolized by the way she devoted her great nation who worked for the objective whole life to her country. of world peace and she will be a major loss She was born into one of the great politi­ to the world political scene. One can only cal families and she went on to give service hope that the political stability of the coun­ in the tradition of that family. More impor­ try will be quickly restored and that it can tantly, she gave to the world an example continue its place in the world under new that even the most populous democracy in leadershi p. the world with all its weaknesses, all its re­ Members of the National Party support ligious bigotry and its caste system-in­ the motion of the House expressing its views deed, from my cultural experiences of and its sympathy. The world has lost a great attitudes, it was an obnoxious caste sys­ leader. tem-and despite all the differences that ex­ The Hon. W. A. LANDERYOU (Doutta ist between our way of life and hers, she Galla Province)-Ijoin with the Leaders of gave to the world the example that India the major parties in this House to express could live within a Parliamentary democ­ my personal sympathy and sense of loss on racy. I hope, despite the action of religious the death of Mrs Indira Gandhi. She was fanatics in that country-unfortunately, that probably one of the most impressive people country is famous for producing fanatics­ I have ever met. I had the privilege and the outrageous act that was committed yes­ honour of meeting her in Melbourne and terday at 4 p.m. eastern standard summer then accepting her invitation to visit India time, does not give rise to continued acts of the following year to assist in the advocacy reprisal and religious bigotry. on behalf of INTUC, the Indian National The best tribute that the people of India Trade Union Congress of that country, in can give to the memory ofMrs Gandhi is to the creation of a minimum wage. Many restore democracy quickly to the nation and, honourable members who have travelled more importantly, to continue to set an ex­ overseas have stopped briefly in India and ample to the rest of the world; that with all spent some time there. I spent seventeen its weaknesses it can still live within a Par­ weeks in that country and it was during a liamentary democracy; that there is at least hectic period of my life in the Labor move­ one guiding light in the world and, in that ment, the period of Federal intervention sense, the world should mourn her passing. into the Victorian branch. At that time Mrs The Hon. J. E. KIRNER (Melbourne Gandhi was establishing her reputation in West Province)-I add a few words to com­ international politics. She took steps that memorate the death of a woman who was, most democrats would not have agreed with firstly, a great woman and, secondly, a great when she gaoled members of the Opposi­ Leader. She was a woman who met the tre­ tion parties, whom she subsequently re­ mendous challenges of India, which other leased. She lost the following election but members have outlined, being population, three years later returned to power. poverty and peace with tremendous ability Even though I spent seventeen weeks in and a great deal of determination, once she India, it was a brief look at a country which had made up her mind, which sometimes is really fifteen or seventeen countries. It created a tension between her support for has cultures that are so diverse, apart from democracy and her difficulty in overcoming extreme wealth and extreme poverty. One changing circumstances in the interest of could spend a whole lifetime studying that the people. part of the world. India is a complex nation and Indira She gave me the impression of both the Gandhi was a complex woman. That was steeliness of her character and the assur­ best illustrated in her attempts to deal with ances and personal views she had of the the population explosion when she was en­ issues confronting her country and the is- couraging people not to have children and 1142 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Questions without Notice had to balance that encouragement against Victorian engineering consultants were in­ their rights and the beliefs of her religion. vited to submit proposals for the project What was said in the newspaper this management of the Portland aluminium morning is an indication that her strength smelter project. will support India even though she is now The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for dead. She said, "Even if my blood is shed it Minerals and Energy)-I am not aware of will go to strengthen the nation". That is whether that is the case; I will make inves­ true. Although we abhor the act, the strength tigations. of her example and courage in life will ena­ ble India to remain strong rather than RURAL FINANCE COMMISSION weaken a nation which is, indeed, coura­ The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western geously facing some of its greatest chal­ Province)-My question refers to the re­ lenges. tirement announced this week of Mr lan The motion was agreed to in silence, hon­ Morton, who has served the Rural Finance ourable members showing their unanimous Commission for 21 years in an outstanding agreement by standing in their places. capacity that is recognized by all honoura­ The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for ble members. I ask the Minister of Agricul­ Planning and Environment)-I move: ture, who will be responsible for appointing the next chairman of the commission, what That the terms of the foregoing resolution be con­ procedure will be adopted for selecting the veyed by the President to the Parliament and the Gov­ future chairman and when an appointment ernment ofIndia. is likely to be made? The motion was agreed to. The Hon. D. E. KENT (Minister of Agri­ culture)-The retirement ofMr Morton was MEDICAL PRACTITIONERS announced approximately two weeks ago (FURTHER AMENDMENT) BILL and was effective from 18 October. The This Bill was received from the Assembly Government is considering a suitable per­ and, on the motion of the Hon. D. R. son to succeed Mr Morton, recognizing the WHITE (Minister for Minerals and En­ fact that the task· that he has performed so ergy), was read a first time. well was a sensitive one and requires the selection of the most appropriate person. THE CONSTITUTION ACT The Government will determine the person AMENDMENT (DONATIONS AND and will make the appointment at the earli­ ELECTORAL EXPENDITURE) BILL est possible date. This Bill was received from the Assembly WINNEKE RESERVOIR and, on the motion of the Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Minister for Conservation, The Hon. J. L. DIXON (Boronia Prov­ Forests and Lands), was read a first time. ince)-I ask the Minister for Water Re­ sources what action the Melbourne and ENVIRONMENT PROTECTION Metropolitan Board of Works has taken to (GENERAL AMENDMENT) BILL allow recreational use of the Winneke reser­ voir, and whether potential recreational use This Bill was returned from the Assembly will influence the quality of Melbourne's with a message relating to an amendment. drinking water. It was ordered that the message be taken into consideration later this day. The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Water Resources)-As honourable mem­ bers would know Melbourne's reservoirs, QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE with the exception ofWinneke reservoir, are supplied from closed catchments. The Board of Works has, in the past, opposed the recreational use of these reservoirs and PORTLAND ALUMINIUM SMELTER catchments, thus maintaining the source PROJECT quality and avoiding major treatment costs. The Hon. D. G. CROZIER (Western Most reservoir areas, however, have been Province)-Will the Minister for Minerals used as recreation parks and accommo­ and Energy inform the House whether any dated nearly 2 million visitors last year. Questions without Notice 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1143 use of the water areas is excluded from rec­ For some time it has been considered reational pursuits. more suitable to have the investigation However, the Government is conscious branch related directly to the technical that requests for the use of the Winneke branches so that investigations and prosecu­ reservoir for recreational purposes have tions may proceed on a direct basis related grown over the years. The most recent sub­ to the technicalities of licences and emis­ mission by the Victorian Recreational Fish­ sions that occur. This approach has been ermen's Advisory Council contains detailed built up over a couple of years, especially argument for use ofdomestic water storages since Mr Jeff Wright became chairman of for recreational angling. The thrust of the the authority. He believes administrative submission is that, subject to controlling investigations and prosecutions are far bet­ guidelines, angling should be a permitted ter handled by an investigation branch that use of reservoirs where the supply is filtered is properly related to the technical branch and chemically treated. Of all the board's of the authority. reservoirs only Winneke reservoir has its It is nonsense to suggest that the investi­ supply filtered and chemically treated. gation branch is to be done away with. I put However, the degree to which recrea­ that claim to rest and thank the honourable tional activities at the Winneke reservoir member for asking the question. I was con­ would degrade the quality of water in the sidering issuing a press release about the matter, and perhaps I should still do so. It reservoir, and the consequential effect of this is mischievous ofMr Monty Burgess of the on treatment costs and confidence in Victorian Public Service Association to achieving the specified quality of water from suggest that there is any withdrawing from the treatment plant under all conditions, the authority of a proper investigatory func­ including drought, are not known at pres­ tion and proper management of prosecu­ ent. tions. The board proposes to use an outside technical expert of standing in matters of ROCK LOBSTER FISHING potable water quality, treatment processes The Hon. B. W. MIER (Waverley Prov­ and public health to review and consider all ince)-Is the Minister for Conservation, relevant reports and information available Forests and Lands aware of the commend­ on this topic from local and overseas stud­ able efforts of the Apollo Bay rock lobster ies and to provide advice on the short and fishermen in voluntarily regulating their long term public health implications of rec­ catches? Will the Minister explain to the reational use of Winneke reservoir. This House what he is doing to support these study is expected to take some six months commendable efforts to conserve Victoria's to complete and a decision will be made valuable crayfish resources? shortly after that. The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Minister ENVIRONMENT PROTECTION for Conservation, Forests and Lands)-It is AUTHORITY always commendable when those who use natural resources which belong to the peo­ The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN ple of Victoria do so responsibly. An exam­ (Western Province)-Will the Minister for ple was the case of the sawmillers in the Planning and Environment advise how the Otway Ranges who realized that, if they Government's decision to close down the continued to cut down timber, the resource investigation branch of the Environment would be run down in a short time. On a Protection Authority is in the interests of voluntary basis the sawmillers got together the Victorian public? and reduced their allocation so that they The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for could exploit that resource in a responsible Planning and Environment)-I am pleased way. to answer the question because there has Rock lobster fishermen at Apollo Bay been a mischievous release made-in my have done something similar. They realized view-by Mr Monty Burgess of the Victo­ that if they fished to the capacity of their rian Public Service Association about ad­ licence of 80 pots, in a short time it would ministrative re-arrangements in the lead to a dramatic reduction of the resource. Environment Protection Authority. Some time ago they decided to take a reduc- 1144 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Questions without Notice tion, and all fishermen in that area have legislation dealing with the steps to be taken been fishing on a limit of 50 pots. prior to the introduction of biological con­ I decided to support their conservation trols for certain plants and pests in Aus­ moves because they were concerned that tralia, particularly Paterson's curse, has now fishermen from other areas were coming in passed through the Senate. Will comple­ and fishing to the limit of 80 pots. I had a mentary legislation be required in Victoria? zone declared around the Apollo Bay area. If so, when will the Government introduce All fishermen with licences were then al­ that complementary legislation? Will it be lowed to fish in that zone for rock lobsters, in the present sessional period? Has the but a limit of 50 pots was imposed. I believe Government taken steps to have the pro­ that is the type of responsible assistance that posed legislation drawn up at this time? a Government should give to people who The Hon. D. E. KENT (Minister of Agri­ are prepared to conserve the resources of culture)-Complementary legislation is re­ Victoria. quired, but obviously it will not be introduced in this sessional period. How­ FIRE IN BRISBANE RANGES ever, it will be introduced at the earliest NATIONAL PARK possible opportunity. Considerations have The Hon. CLIVE BUBB (Ballarat Prov­ to be taken into account and a degree of ince)-I refer the Minister for Conserva­ consultation has to take place to ensure the tion, Forests and Lands to the fire which protection of all people involved. burnt out of control on Tuesday in the Bris­ Consequently, the Government is not in bane Ranges National Park. Given that a position to introduce proposed legislation Victoria had a fairly dry winter and that the at this stage. However, I can assure Mr fire season is closing in, I ask the Minister Evans that a Bill will be introduced at the why Forests Commission officers have left earliest possible opportunity. it so late to carry out burning off in national parks. ASSISTANCE TO VOLUNTARY The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Minister CONSERVATION GROUPS for Conservation, Forests and Lands)-Fuel The Hon. C. J. KENNEDY (Waverley reduction burning is a complex operation Province)-I direct my question to the which requires much foresight and know­ Minister for Planning and Environment. In ledge. Honourable members should recog­ this year's Bud~et, an amount of $70 000 nize that many factors have to be taken into was made available to the Ministry for account before fuel reduction burning can Planning and Environment for assistance to occur. Those factors include the relative voluntary conservation groups. Funding was humidity on the day, the wind, the temper­ also made available to two other depart­ ature at the time and so on. In actual fact, it ments-the Department of Conservation, means that there are very few days in some Forests and Lands and the Department of areas where fuel reduction burning can take Minerals and Energy-totalling an extra place. One must also remember that changes $358 500 for conservation groups over the can occur after the programme has com­ next twelve months. menced. I ask the meticulous Minister for Plan­ Every effort is made by Forests Commis­ ning and Environment what is the reason sion officers and national parks officers in a for allocating moneys to the Ministry when fuel reduction burn so that there is a mini­ major funding is available through the De­ mum of burning off, but occasionally cal­ partment of Conservation, Forests and culations turn out not to be correct because Lands? of other factors, and that was. the case with The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for the Brisbane Ranges National Park. It is Planning and Environment)-The grant re­ unfortunate, but it is one of those risks that ferred to by Mr Kennedy is an amount that one takes with fuel reduction burns. is available for grants up to $70000 from my Ministry and it is a new form of grant. PATERSON'S CURSE Previously-and I refer to previous Gov­ The Hon. D. M. EV ANS (North Eastern ernments as well as the Labor Govern­ Province)-I indicate to the Minister of ment-some funding has been available for Agriculture that it is my understanding that conservation groups, usually to sustain them Questions without Notice 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1145

on a project basis. The Minister for Conser­ take up the other matters with the Treasurer vation, Forests and Lands administers a and provide the honourable member with significant fund for that reason. He may wish an answer in due course. to comment later on the increases in this area. The Minister for Minerals and Energy also COURT HOUSES AT MOONEE administers funds, to some degree, for PONDS AND PRAHRAN groups doing work in energy conservation The Hon. J. E. KIRNER (Melbourne in other areas. The intent of the moneys West Province)-I direct my question to provided to the Ministry for Planning and the Attorney-General. I understand that Environment is basically to support groups there is a new case listing system operating that would not otherwise be able to make in court houses at Moonee Ponds and Prah­ submissions, where they need assistance to ran. Could the Attorney-General advise the make submissions, in environment effects House how this system operates? statement hearings, planning hearings and The Hon. J. H. KENNAN (Attorney­ panels and sometimes in hearings before the General)-I thank Mrs Kirner for her ques­ Planning Appeals Board. tion. The answer happily does not include There is a certain inequity about the way references to new technology. It refers to the planning hearings occur in that people who courts management change programme. A can afford legal advice too often, and com­ committee was formed under that pro­ monly, gain an advantage over those who gramme to consider and recommend an im­ cannot afford it. It is the view of the Gov­ proved system of listing to overcome ernment, particularly in my Ministry where unnecessary court appearances. Honoura­ a number of these hearings, panels and ble members will be aware that for a long boards are established, that if a Govern­ time there has been criticism of the way in ment considers equity as an important is­ which Magistrates Court cases have been sue, it should make more money available listed. Everyone connected with a case than has been made available in the past, turned up at the court at 10 o'clock and although this is the first time it has ever there was often a considerable waste of time been available. In this way the ordinary per­ while people waited to get their cases on. It son who feels aggrieved or who wants to sometimes occurred that their case did not have a say can do so with some significant get on on that day. legal assistance, and that is how those funds The system was established on I August will be spent this financial year. at Prahran and Moonee Ponds in an en­ ALCOA OF AUSTRALIA LTD deavour to overcome this problem by insti­ tuting a mention day. When a person is The Hon. R. J. LONG (Gippsland Prov­ charged, he or she receives notice of the ince)-I refer the Minister for Minerals and mention day when pleas of guilty will be Energy to the sum of $38·6 million paid by dealt with. Advice is given on the notice for the Government last year to the State Elec­ that person to consult a solicitor and if he tricity Commission to compensate the com­ or she pleads not guilty, the matter is ad­ mission for the failure of the Government journed to a future fixed date, when the to restart the Alcoa project at Portland. This matter is more likely to proceed than under amount is repayable to the Government this the old system. financial year by the Portland Aluminium The police will not have to attend on the Unit Trust. mention day and witnesses are summoned Will the Government be obliged to guar­ only when the matter is contested. This sys­ antee this repayment to itself to make its tem saves both police and witness time. Budget look better because the unit trust Matters are brought before the court in has no income for that purpose? Was this the first instance within 28 days of the amount included in the capital cost of the . charge. The programme is working satisfac­ project that Victorians will be called upon torily and it is expected that substantial sav­ to bear? ings will occur with witness costs, the The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Appeals Costs Fund and unnecessary wasted Minerals and Energy)-The answer to the time by police officers. The matter has re­ last part of the question is, "Yes". I shall ceived general acclamation by magistrates, 1146 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Questions without Notice the police, the legal profession and the court decision will be made by the Minister of the users. day. I thank all those responsible for the prep­ SLAUGHTER OF DOGS FOR aration of the plan and I commend it to EXPERIMENTATION honourable members for approval. The Hon. H. R. WARD (South Eastern Province)-What discussions has the Min­ SUNBURY pop FESTIVALS ister of Agriculture had with the Royal So­ The Hon. N. B. REID (Bendigo Prov­ ciety for the Prevention of Cruelty to ince)-Can the Minister for Planning and Animals regarding published allegations of Environment advise what planning or other collusion between the Baker Medical Insti­ controls could be used to ensure that the tute and the City ofChelsea on the slaughter interests of local residents are protected of stray dogs for experimentation? during future Sunbury pop festivals? The Hon. D. E. KENT (Minister of Agri­ The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for culture)-I have had no discussions with Planning and Environment)-Pop festivals the Royal Society for the Prevention ofCru­ held from time to time on properties re­ elty to Animals on this question. quire, among other things, planning ap­ proval. STRANDING OF KILLER WHALES I am sure Mr Reid asks the question be­ The Hon. B. A. MURPHY (Gippsland cause his interests lie in the control by Province)-No doubt the Minister for Con­ police and emergency services that might servation, Forests and Lands remembers the be brought to bear on the festival. As well tragic stranding of killer whales on the East as the planning aspects, there are local gov­ Gippsland coast last year. Can the Minister ernment aspects. My department does be­ advise whether any initiative has been taken come involved but I cannot yet offer Mr to cope with similar strandings in the Reid the details of the way in which we future? administer those responsibilities. The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Minister The Hon. N. B. Reid-Do residents have for Conservation, Forests and Lands)­ any input? Following that incident in East Gippsland, The Hon. E. H. WALKER-My under­ my predecessor in the Ministry, the Hon­ standing is that they do. I shall have to check ourable Evan Walker, initiated almost im­ the procedures that are used so that I can mediately the setting up of a whale rescue give Mr Reid the proper answer. I under­ plan which involved officers of my depart­ stand the significance of his question be­ ment as well as a large number of commu­ cause the nuisance and disturbance factors nity groups such as Project Jona and the can be major. However, a society like ours Whale Rescue V nit. Information received does have to make proper arrangements for from other States and other parts of the young people to enjoy major pop festivals world was also used. As a result of that in­ In surroundings that offer the least disturb­ vestigation, Victoria now has a whale res­ ance and the most enjoyment. It is an issue cue plan that, in the view of many people that I shall be happy to brief him on when and the interest expressed in other parts of the details are given to me. the world, is probably a world leader. In the unfortunate event of future whale THE CONSTITUTION ACT strandings, the Government has a plan AMENDMENT (DONATIONS AND which can be put into operation in a prop­ ELECTORAL EXPENDITURE) BILL erly co-ordinated way and with the help of The Hon. A. J. HUNT (South Eastern a large number of volunteers. Expert veter­ Province)-By leave, I move: inary scientists will be on hand to evaluate the conditions of the whales and every ef­ That a select committee of seven members be ap­ fort will be made, using newly designed pointed to inquire into and report upon the provisions contained in The Constitution Act Amendment (Do­ equipment, to get the whales back into the nations and Electoral Expenditure) Bill transmitted to water. However, if whales have to be eu­ the Legislative Council by the Legislative Assembly, thanized, discussions will be held with the the committee to have power to send for persons, veterinary scientists and other associated papers and records and to sit in public or private as groups. Should euthanasia be necessary, the thought appropriate by the committee from time to Petition 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1147 time, and also to authorize the publication of any evi­ hibit embryo destruction, freezing, experi­ dence heard in public, three to be the quorum and that mentation and the production of excess the Council proceed to the appointment of the com­ embryos. He stated that a petition was re­ mi ttee on the next day of meeting. spectfully worded, in order, and bore 139 The PRESIDENT-Order! Is leave signatures. granted? It was ordered that the petition be laid on The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for the table. Planning and Environment)-I understood until the last couple of words that Mr Hunt NATURAL RESOURCES AND was moving, by leave, for this matter to be ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE handled today, but he is now saying on the Geelong water supply next day of meeting. The Hon. D. E. HENSHAW (Geelong The Hon. A. J. Hunt-I am seeking to Province) presented a report from the Nat­ move my motion forthwith but to proceed ural Resources and Environment Commit­ to the appointment of the membership of tee upon the augmentation of Geelong's the committee on the next day of meeting. water supply to the year 1995, together with The Hon. E. H. WALKER-As Mr Hunt appendices, minutes of evidence and a has not given me any notice of such a mo­ background information paper. tion, I am not inclined to grant leave for it to be moved immediately. I should prefer The Hon. D. E. HENSHAW (Geelong that it was a notice of motion. Province)-I move: The PRESIDENT-Order! Leave is re­ That they be laid on the table and that the report and fused. appendices be printed. The Hon. A. J. HUNT (South Eastern This report is in the nature of an initial part Province) (By leave)-I give notice of the of a wider-ranging report which, it is hoped, same motion, accordingly substituting at the the committee will present in 1986. That end of the motion, Hthat the Council pro­ wider-ranging report will cover all aspects ceed with the appointment of the commit­ of water in the south-west of Victoria. This tee forthwith." That will mean that if the initial report will enable the Geelong and motion is passed on the next day of meeting District Water Board to carry out planning we will proceed forthwith to the formula­ work towards the augmentation of its water tion of the committee. supply. I also seek an undertaking that time will The motion was agreed to. be given on the next day of meeting to deal with this motion. On the motion of the Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province), it was or­ The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for dered that the report be taken into consid­ Planning and Environment) (By leave)-I eration on the next day of meeting. am not willing to give such an undertaking until discussion has occurred. This House PUBLIC BODIES REVIEW has to deal with a significant amount of COMMITTEE business in the next two days and I suspect Irrigation and water resource management that Mr Hunt does not necessarily demand time tomorrow. I do not wish to give an The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN undertaking until we have some time to dis­ (Western Province) presented a report from cuss the matter. the Public Bodies Review Committee upon the future structures for water manage­ PETITION ment-final report on irrigation and water "In vitro" fertilization resource management, together with ap­ pendices, a minority report and minutes of The Hon. G. P. CONNARD (Higin­ evidence. botham Province) presented a petition from certain citizens of Victoria praying that, be­ It was ordered that they be laid on the cause in vitro fertilization puts embryonic table, and that the report, appendices and human beings at risk of damage or death, minority report be printed. the Parliament will amend the Infertility On the motion of the Hon. HADDON (Medical Procedures) Bill (No. 2) to pro- STOREY (East Yarra Province), it was or- 1148 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Papers dered that the report be taken into consid­ Volume 3 contammg AS Nos CB22-1969, eration on the next day of meeting. 026-1972,031-1973, E35 Part 1-1970, E35 Part 2-1970, E47-1971, AI37-1968, 1110-1984, 1425-1973, 1429-1979, PAPERS 1425-1982, 1432-1983, 1572-1974, 1587-1973, 1596-1983, 1674-1980. tlie - papers~· the "folloWing·· .pursuant· to - Volume·4 containing AS Nos 1743-1975, directions of several Acts of Parliament, 1751-1975, 1753-1983, 1754-1975, were laid on the table by the Clerk: 1869-1983, 1973-1976, 2030-1977, Chiropractors and Osteopaths Registration Board­ 2337-1980, 2430 Part 1, 2430 Part 2, Report for the year 1983. 2465-1981,2473-1981,2596-1983,2597. Consumer Affairs-Report and financial statements of Volume 5 containing SAE Standards Nos J527, the Ministry of Consumer Affairs for the year J5276, J726, J826, J8396, J850, J879, J903, 1983-84. J934, J941, J941a, J941e, J944, J953, J964, Ethnic Affairs Commission-Report for the year J985, J 11 OOa. 1983-84. Notice of the Chief Commissioner of Police ex­ Housing-Report of the Director of Housing for the empting certain motor cars from the fitting of year 1983-84. seat belts pursuant to section 31A (5) of the Industry, Commerce and Technology Department­ Motor Car Act 1958. (Victoria Gazette No. Report and financial statements for the year 1983-84. 107, page 4089, 18 December, 1968). Local Government Department-Report and finan­ ASTM Nos BI17-73, A254-79, A266-83, cial statements for the year 1983-84. 0523-62T, 0571-55, 0622-65. Management and Budget Department-Report and Volume 6 containing No. AS1210-1982 Sup­ financial statements for the year 1983-84. plement No. 1 to AS121O. Members of Parliament (Register of Interests) Act Town and Country Planning Act 1961-No. 364. 1978-Summary of variations notified to 31 Octo­ Totalizator Agency Board-Report and accounts for ber 1984. the year ended 31 July 1984. Public Account Act 1958-Report on the Victorian On the motion of the Hon. HAD DON Development Fund for the year 1983-84. STOREY (East Yarra Province), it was or­ Public Service Board-Report and financial state­ dered that the report be taken into consid­ ments for the year ended 31 July 1984. eration on the next day of meeting. Rural Finance Commission-Report for the year 1983-84. DANGEROUS GOODS (ROAD Solar Energy Council-Report for the year 1983-84. TRANSPORT) BILL Statutory Rules under the following Acts of Parlia- ment: For the Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Minerals and Energy), the Hon. E. H. Annual Reporting Act 1983-Nos 334 and 342. Walker (Minister for Planning and Envi­ Coal Mines Act 1958-No. 371. ronment)-I move: County Court Act 1958-Interpretation of Legis­ lation Act 1984-No. 319 (in lieu of that tabled That this Bill be now read a second time. on 2 October 1984). Honourable members may know of the un­ Financial Institutions Outy Act 1982-No. 374. derstandings that have been reached through MotorCar Act 1958-Nos 379 together with doc­ the Australian Transport Advisory Council uments required by s.32 of the Interpretation of concerning dangerous goods. Agreement Legislation Act 1984 to accompany the statu­ was reached that a comprehensive set of tory rule: rules on the transport of dangerous goods Method for Determination of Ethyl Alcohol for be put into operation in all Australian States Medicolegal Purposes. Standards Manual and Territories. The Bill will implement 1984 of the Tyre and Rim Association ofAus~ Victoria's undertakings. tralia. Volume 1 containing ADR Nos 1,2,3, 3A, 4A, In 1982 the need for improved controls 4B,4c,5A,5B,6,6A, 7,8, lOA, lOB, 11, 12, 14, on the transport of dangerous goods was 15,16, 17, 18, 18A, 20, 21, 22, 22A, 23, 24, 25, examined by a Government working party. 25A, 26, 27, 27A, 28, 28A, 29, 30, 31, 32, 32A, The committee consisted of representatives 33, 34, 35, 35A, 36. of Government agencies, industry and trade Volume 2 containing AS Nos RI-1968, unions. It considered a range of matters CCI-1969, CB4-1969, CBI9-1963, concerning the proper management of haz­ CB20-1971. ardous chemicals. Dangerous Goods (Road Transport) Bill 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1149

Following the recommendations of this stances dangerous by contact with committee the Government released a pub· water; lic discussion paper. After consultation it Oxidizing agents; was decided that it should be compulsory Poisonous and infectious substances; in this State for carriers and those who send dangerous goods to observe the provisions Radioactive substances; of the Australian Code for the Transport of Corrosive substances; and Dangerous Goods by Road and Rail. The Miscellaneous dangerous substances. Bill is designed to do this in regard to road Explosives, radioactive and infectious transport. substances are excluded from the applica­ Fleets of bulk tankers transporting petro­ tion of the Bill as they are adequately regu­ leum fuels or liquid chemicals or gases are lated by existing legislation. an increasingly prominent feature of the commercial traffic on our roads. Perhaps not so obvious is the quantity of chemicals AUSTRALIAN CODE transported in drums, bags, boxes and other forms of packaging. The first part of clause 8 states in effect Many chemicals have hazardous proper­ that any regulation may incorporate or ties. Accidents during transport of hazard­ adopt by reference, wholly or partially, the ous materials can pose the threat of fire or provisions of the Australian code. explosion, or of poisoning by contact or in­ The code provides for: halation if products are released from their Hazard warning information and lab­ containers. Some chemicals react violently els on dangerous goods, containers if they become mixed through spillage. and vehicles; Accidents involving dangerous goods adequate information on what danger­ bring a special risk of injury or loss of life ous goods are being carried on a and may pose a threat to property. Emer­ vehicle; gency services workers may be at risk when the suitability and strength of pack­ they seek to control a dangerous goods ages; emergency. Their task is made more diffi­ cult and hazardous if substances are not safe design of road tanker vehicles and readily identifiable. Drastic disruption of transport tanks, and provision of the traffic and temporary evacuation of people proper safety equipment on tankers; living or working nearby may result. Con­ safe stowage of dangerous goods on tamination of soil, water, or drainage sys­ vehicles; tems, or pollution of the atmosphere, may operating procedures for safety when be a further problem. dangerous goods are transported by The objectives of a regulatory pro­ road; gramme for the transport of dangerous instructions cards, to be carried in the goods must be to minimize the probability cabin which show the precautions to of accidents and to mitigate their impact. be taken at an accident or spill, and The Bill will promote the safety of persons the first aid treatment for exposure and property during the transport of dan­ to the particular chemical; and gerous goods by road. training and qualifications of drivers in CLASSIFICATION OF DANGEROUS charge of bulk loads of high hazard GOODS materials. Under the international system of classi­ The Bill will enable all those safety meas­ fication, dangerous goods are grouped into ures to be implemented where necessary. the following nine classes: The code places special importance on Explosives; identifying plainly the particular substances being carried and their hazards. In that way, Compressed and liquefied gases; transport operators and drivers are assisted. Flammable liquids; Emergency services personnel arriving at an Combustible solids, spontaneously accident scene are alerted to the hazards combustible substances and sub- that exist. 1150 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Dangerous Goods (Road Transport) Bill

RANGE OF DANGEROUS GOODS implementation, administration and en­ The code incorporates an extensive index forcement. of dangerous goods of more than 2500 en­ AMENDMENT OF CERTAIN ACTS, tries. The index shows the class of danger­ AND SO ON ous goods to which the particular item bel.ongs, the labelling and packaging re­ The Bill amends the Explosives Act, In­ qUIrements, and the physical properties and flammable Liquids Act and Liquefied Gases hazards. Act. I shall not go into a detailed explana­ The precise range ofdangerous goods will tion of these various amendments, which be prescribed by regulation as the list will are set out in Parts VIII, IX and X. I should need to change from time to time as new mention, however, that the amendments do chemicals or other items come onto the not affect existing requirements imposed by market. the Inflammable Liquids Act and the Liquefied Gases Act as to the licensing of PRIMARY OBJECT petrol tankers and gas tankers. The legislation will make the code bind­ Part XI contains some incidental amend­ ing in Yictoria as regards ~ransport by road. ments to the Transport Act and the Health The BIll does not cover rad transport which Act. Their purpose is to avoid duplication is covered by VicRail's own dangerous of safety controls on the transport of dan­ goods rules. These rules are in accordance gerous goods by road and to enable the pres­ with the code. ent Bill to be the primary source of ADMINISTRATIVE PROVISIONS regulation on this matter. The Bill provides for a chief inspector CONSULTATION PROCESSES and inspectors of dangerous goods to ad­ minister the rules made under the proposed The Government is aware that the chem­ legislation. The inspectorate will consist ical, petroleum and transport industries largely of existing staff members of the Haz­ strongly favour the implementation by law ardous Materials Division of the Ministry of the Australian code, as a basis for uni­ of Employment and Training. form controls on the transport of dangerous goods in all States. The House of Represen­ The Hon. A. J. Hunt-Is the code to tatives Standing Committee on Environ­ which you referred working satisfactorily? ment and Conservation, in a recent report The Hon. E. H. WALKER-Yes, I· be­ strongly advocated action by all States to lieve so. implement the Australian code. The recent The Bill will also enable officers of the report of the National Road Freight Inquiry Road Traffic Authority and certain mem­ also advocated this action. bers of the Police Force to ensure vehicles Wide consultation has preceded the Bill. and freight comply with the requirements. The action now being taken was canvassed Regulations under the Bill will make it an in a public discussion paper circulated in offence to contravene the code. Fines are to 1983. A set of proposals for a more compre­ be a maximum of twenty penalty units­ hensive Dangerous Goods Bill was circu­ where the offender is an individual, and 100 lated in early 1984. I reaffirm the penalty units in the case of a corporation. Government's commitment to comprehen­ Imprisonment, is provided in the event of sive dangerous goods legislation and I look a particularly dangerous offence committed forward to introducing it next year. wilfully. The Bill has been introduced prior to The Bill provides the chief inspector with comprehensive legislation because of the the power to exempt persons from compli­ particular urgency of establishing transport ance with any requirement in a particular controls. Further consultation will occur case. This provision is necessary, because it between the Ministry for Employment and will take some time before people can fully Training and relevant departments on the comply with the code. making and the administration of regula­ tions. POWERS TO REGULATE Powers to make regulations and orders CONCLUDING COMMENTS appear in Part VII of the Bill. These permit The Government believes the Dangerous subordinate legislation sufficient for proper Goods (Road Transport) Bill will signifi- Dangerous Goods (Road Transport) Bill 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1151

candy improve the safety and welfare of second-reading speech, the code is operat­ transport and emergency service workers ing well. The Minister pointed out that and the community in general. It will bene­ products such as explosives, petroleum and fit the chemical, petroleum and transport so on, which are transported throughout the industries. They recognize the need for State, come under the provisions of sepa­ practical precautions and look forward to rate legislation. The Bill covers only a lim­ the advantage of a uniform national system ited number of substances. Radioactive ofmles. substances are also covered by legislation dealing with environmental matters. I ac­ On behalf of the Minister for Employ­ cept that dangerous chemicals are being car­ ment and Training I thank those who re­ ried by all methods of transport but the sponded to the public invitations to make transport of those dangerous chemicals al­ submissions and acknowledge the willing ready complies with a uniform code. Many support the Ministry has had from many of the chemicals are transported by large quarters as the Bill was developed, and es­ interstate vehicles in Victoria. pecially from the Ministeries of minerals and energy, transport, police and emer­ The House of Representatives strongly gency services, planning and environment recommended that uniform codes and leg­ and the national Advisory Committee on islation be implemented in each of the States the Transport of Dangerous Goods. I com­ after its committee investigated the matter. mend the Bill to the House. The Minister would be aware that South Australia is reviewing similar legislation that On the motion of the Hon. CLIVE BUBB has been in force for twelve months or more. (Ballarat Province), the debate was ad­ Much of the transport of dangerous chemi­ journed. cals through Victoria is from South Aus­ The Hon. E. H .. WALKER (Minister for tralia and New South Wales. Planning and Environment)-I move: The reason for an adjournment of the de­ That the debate be adjourned until later this day. bate for 28 days is that as a matter of ur­ gency the Government should consult with The Hon. CLIVE BUBB (Ballarat Prov­ Victoria's neighbouring States to consider ince)-I move: uniform legislation to cover areas that the That the words "until later this day" be omitted with Bill is intended to cover. I am not canvass­ the view of inserting in place thereof the expression ing the merits of this desirable Bill, but the "for 28 days". adjournment of the debate until later this During the second-reading speech, the Min­ day is too short a period of adjournment. ister said that the Bill was complex and that Instead of honourable members having to it covered a difficult area. Therefore, the move numerous amendments to the Bill in measure is worthy of more consideration its present form, the proposed legislation and consultation by the Government. could be delayed until another Bill is drafted with provisions uniform to those which The Minister commented on consulta­ could operate in New South Wales and tion but, as the honourable gentleman would South Australia. As pointed out in the sec­ be well aware, a number of major employer ond-reading speech, the Bill covers only a organizations have expressed views about small range of dangerous substances. that consultation and suggested that there was not sufficient consultation prior to the The Hon. D. R. White-That is no rea­ introduction of the proposed legislation. son for an adjournment of the debate for 28 This practice is similar to that applied to days. other legislative measures introduced by the The Hon. CLIVE BUBD-At present Government on which there have been gen­ those substances are covered by a code of eral consultations. The major employer or­ practice, which the Minister acknowledged ganizations, which received the proposed is working well; therefore, there is no ur­ legislation, consider that they did not have gency in pushing the measure through. sufficient time in which to study the Bill and The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for desire further time to comment on it. Planning and Environment)-The circum­ For that reason, more consultation is nec­ stances of presenting a Bill of this type at essary and could be made available be­ this time of the sessional period are nor­ cause, as the Minister stated during the mally that an adjournment ofthe debate for 1152 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Dangerous Goods (Road Transport) Bill an agreed time is taken-that is, until later The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for this day-after which there are reasonably Minerals and Energy)-In support of the amicable discussions between the parties to Leader of the Government on the adjourn­ determine whether a case exists for the ad­ ment of debate on the Bill, I point out that journment of the debate, in which case the the Australian Code for the Transport of Bill usually does not proceed. I persist in Dangerous Goods by Road and Rail should saying that the House should hold to that be implemented in this sessional period be­ practice because it is one which allows for cause the code has been implemented at the the better management of the business of Federal level and in all other States which the House. are parties to the agreement reached by the Mr Bubb may not understand that a sig­ Australian Transport Advisory Council. nificant, comprehensive piece of work on It is of the utmost urgency that this Bill the whole issue of the transport of hazard­ be passed in this sessional period. Signifi­ ous material and dangerous goods is being cant concern has been expressed by both the done by a number of Ministries covering Country Fire Authority and the Metropoli­ the Environment Protection Authority and tan Fire Brigades Board on the Govern­ the Department of Minerals and Energy, ment being seen to delay the through its Hazardous Materials Division, implementation of this measure on road which is in the process of being transferred safety. That concern is still present, and both to the control of the Ministry of Employ­ those bodies have desisted from their public ment and Training because of the occupa­ compaigning on this issue only on the un­ tional health and safety aspects. The Bill is derstanding that the Bill will be passed in not viewed as a comprehensive measure but this sessional period. Not only does the rather one that is necessary while the major Government believe the Bill should be piece of work is still proceeding. The Bill is passed in this sessional period, but it also not the over-all or comprehensive piece of believes that at the very least there should work that it may appear at first glance. be a maximum opportunity for honourable The Bill is necessary to ensure the safety members to debate the merits of the Bill in of certain materials in certain circumstan­ this sessional period. ces of transit. It is expected that following The Opposition has claimed that not only further consultation, the major piece of pro­ should the House be denied the opportu­ posed legislative work will be finalized some nity of passing the proposed legislation but time next year. that it should also be denied the opportu­ Mr Bubb may also recall the recent occa­ nity of debating the need for it. That is a sion in this House when amendments were totally outrageous suggestion. made to the Environment Protection Au­ The Hon. D. M. EV ANS (North Eastern thority Act which allowed the authority to Province)-I have listened to the argu­ have control over the transport of non-haz­ ments from both sides of the House, and ardous and non-dangerous materials. That the view of the National Party is that it is is a provision which is connected with the reasonable that the Bill be passed in this Bill. I assure Mr Bubb that the Bill is not sessional period. The National Party recog­ intended to be a comprehensive and major nizes the difficulties that are faced by any piece of work, as Mr Bubb has described it. Government, Parliament, Opposition or It is intended to be a practical measure honourable member when proposed legis­ which is now seen to be necessary. lation of a complex nature is introduced at I believe consultation should occur be­ short notice. At the same time, without ar­ tween the parties after debate on the Bill is guing the merits of the Bill, I should point adjourned until later this day. I do not be­ out that more than two years ago in the lieve there should be a pre-emptive move House I moved a motion on the handling to adjourn debate on the Bill for 28 days of dangerous and intractable wastes which because that would not allow the House to included a reference to the transport of dan­ discuss the matter at all and it would leave gerous goods, and at that time I sought fur­ these provisions to lie over for some ther action because of what the National months, which could place the Govern­ Party regarded as a totally unsatisfactory ment in a difficult situation. situation. Medical Practitioners Bill 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1153

Events throughout the world-and I point AUSTRALIAN MEDICAL COUNCIL especially to an incident which occurred two About 30 per cent of the applications re­ years ago in Spain-illustrate graphically the ceived by the Medical Board of Victoria for problems that can occur, the dangers that registratIOn under the Medical Practitioners can be thrust upon the population and the Act are submitted by people who have ob­ tragic results that can occur if the proper tained their qualifications in other States or regulation of the transport of increasingly Territories, or from overseas. complex and perhaps increasingly danger­ The evaluation of overseas qualifications ous goods is not dealt with expeditiously has always been a vexed problem for the and correctly. board. Until 1983 the Medical Practitioners I recognized that at the moment there is Act constituted a Foreign Practitioners some degree of self-regulation in the indus­ Qualification Committee which had the try. That has probably been most effective function of examining the qualifications and at this stage, but it needs urgent backing by credentials of foreign medical practitioners proper legislative procedures. to practice medicine in the State of Victoria. An amendment made to the principal Act The National Party believes it is reason­ in that year substituted for the committee able to debate the Bill at this stage, recogniz­ recognition of the certificate of the Austra­ ing that it is not the final word in this matter lian Medical Examining Council. and that there will be ongoing requirements for further review of the Bill and further Nevertheless, there still remains a hiatus amendment, and, one would hope, some because there is no official body in Australia degree of concurrence between the various specifically responsible for the accreditation States. That is not always the case in pro­ of Australian and foreign medical schools posed legislation because frequently differ­ and medical curricula. This is a matter ent States have different legislative which has been discussed at various health procedures. However, that is not a reason Ministers' conferences. As a result, agree­ to desist from debating the proposed legis­ ment has been reached to the establishment of a new body, to be known as the Austra­ lation at this time. lian Medical Council. The amendment was negatived. The council is being incorporated under The motion was agreed to, and the debate the Associations Incorporation Ordinance was adjourned until later this day. of the Australian Capital Territory. It will have the function of making recommenda­ tions to the medical boards of the States and MEDICAL PRACTITIONERS Territories with respect to the accreditation (FURTHER AMENDMENT) BILL of medical schools and courses leading to basic medical qualifications, the assessment The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for of the acceptability of overseas medical Minerals and Energy)-I move: qualifications, arranging for the recognition That this Bill be now read a second time. of those qualifications, and making recom­ mendations to the States and Territories on One of the traditions of the present Parlia­ uniform registration standards. ment is the introduction of legislation by The amendments proposed to the princi­ the Government each sitting to amend the pal Act by clauses 4 and 5 of the Bill recog­ Medical Practitioners Act. It is not my in­ nize the establishment of the Australian tention to disappoint honourable members Medical Council. on this occasion. Clause 4 amends sections 19 (1) and 27 A The present Bill will make a number of (7) to provide, in effect, that a certificate of amendments to the principal Act which the Australian Medical Council that a per­ have become necessary since the last ses­ son is qualified to be registered in all States sional period. They are fairly straightfor­ and Territories is an acceptable qualifica­ ward, and the more significant amendments tion for the purpose of registration as a can be grouped under three headings. These medical practitioner in this State. are: Firstly, recognition of the Australian Clause 5 goes on to appoint the President Medical Council; secondly, a revision of the of the Medical Board, or, in his absence, the appeals provision; and, thirdly, clarification Deputy President, as the Victorian member of the ,conditional registration mechanism. of the Australian Medical Council. 1154 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Medical Practitioners Bill

The council will be the first and only body . . . who is or has been qualified to practise medicine of its type operating within Australia and or surgery in any country other than the countries re­ the amendments to the principal Act pro­ ferred to in section 19, and where the Health Commis­ sion certifies to the Board that it is satisfied that the posed by this Bill will assist with the devel­ person will meet a special need for the provision of opment of an efficient system for the medical services to a particular ethnic community ... accreditation of medical schools and quali­ fications on a national basis. The first application under this section was determined. by the board earlier this year. APPEALS As a result of that determination, the board Section 11 of the principal Act provides formed the view that the sub-section I have for appeals against decisions of the Medical quoted did not appear to permit it to take Board to a judge of the Supreme Court in into account the certification of the Health chambers. Sub-section (3) states, in part, that Commission. "every such appeal shall be in the nature of The provision has been construed as a rehearing ... " meaning that the Health Commission must This sub-section has the effect of preclud­ recognize the need, be satisfied that the par­ ing the court from taking into account the ticular individual person will meet this need, material which was before the Medical and be sufficiently certain to certify these Board at the time of its finding. Over the things to the board. This, of course, was not years, this provision has been criticized by the intention of the 1983 Act. With this in the courts, and was particularly highlighted mind, clause 7 will revise the wording of by Mr Justice Fullagar in his recent decision section 27A (1) to more clearly express the in the case of John Stevenson and the Med­ wishes of the Parliament. ical Board of Victoria. His Honour ex­ OTHER pressed the view that the whole situation was most unsatisfactory, and added: The opportunity of this Bill is also being taken to make a minor amendment to sec­ It will suffice for me to say at this point that, in my tion 17 (4) of the principal Act. Paragraph opinion, it would be a far better system to provide that (c) of this sub-section empowers the board an appeal should be to the Court, or to the Full Court, to find that a medical practitioner: upon any question of law including any alleged denial of natural justice, and upon penalty, and to make the . . . has been convicted of an offence against this Act matter an appeal properly so called, with the material or the regulations or against the Drugs, Poisons and before the Board wholly available as evidence before Controlled Substances Act 1981 or the regulations made the Court on appeal. thereunder. The Government agrees with the suggestion It goes on to vest various disciplinary pow­ of the court, and clause 6 of this Bill will ers in the board among which is a capacity replace the present requirement that an ap­ to impose conditions on the practice of the peal is to be in the nature of a rehearing doctor concerned, including prohibitions on with what could be termed a more conven­ the prescription of any drug or substance or tional appeal provision. class of drugs or substances. This will, among other things, permit the The ability of the board to impose condi­ court to take into account both the evidence tions on the practice of a doctor was in­ before the Medical Board and the reasoning serted by the Medical Practitioners of its highly qualified and highly experi­ (Amendment) Act 1981, not as an alterna­ enced members. tive penalty, but as a means of enabling the board to help a medical practitioner who CONDITIONAL REGISTRATION may have an alcohol or drug problem. Honourable members may recall that The attention of the Government has section 27 A (1) of the principal Act was been drawn to the fact that there have been amended by the Medical Practitioners some instances where charges against a (Conditional Registration) Act 1983 to in­ medical practitioner have been found stitute a system of conditional registration. proven, but the court, for various reasons, The section provides, in part, that the Med­ did not proceed to conviction. ical Board may issue a certificate of registra­ This could occur, for example, if the court tion subject to limitations and restrictions determined to release the doctor concerned to a person: on a good behaviour bond. However, be- Pre-school Teachers and Assistants Bill 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1155

cause the doctor had not actually been con­ pre-school centres successfully, staff were victed of the offence, the Medical Board is taken from them without consultation. That precluded from making a finding under par­ caused difficulties. Wages arrived late and agraph (c). This is an obvious anomaly, and there have also been difficulties in advising will be corrected by the insertion of the overtime payments, hours of work and en­ words "or found guilty" by clause 8 of the titlements to annual leave. The incompet­ Bill. ence of the Minister has totally disrupted The amendments to the Medical Practi­ pre-school education. In an effort to patch tioners Act I have outlined to the House, as up the cracks, he has provided this Bill, I have already mentioned, are fairly which provides continuity of employment straightforward, and have the support of the for persons who otherwise would have been Medical Board. I commend the Bill to the denied any entitlement to long service leave. House. The Liberal Party is happy to pass the On the motion of the Hon. J. V. C. Bill, but I find it hard to understand why G VEST (Monash Province), the debate was people permanently employed by local mu­ adjourned. nicipalities, boards of management and It was ordered that the debate be ad­ various pre-school centres who would, in journed until later this day. the normal course of events, be entitled to long service leave must be protected in this PRE-SCHOOL TEACHERS AND way. The House is being put to the incon­ ASSISTANTS (PORTABILITY OF venience of passing a Bill just to bailout the LONG SERVICE LEAVE) BILL Minister of Health who has created a situa­ The debate (adjourned from the previous tion in which the jobs of those people are day) on the motion of the Hon. D. R. White no longer permanent and have been dis­ (Minister for Minerals and Energy) for the rupted. They have been forced to seek other second reading of this Bill was resumed. employment and, to ensure that they do not suffer as a result of the Minister's incompet­ The Hon. CLIVE BUBB (Ballarat Prov­ ence, honourable members must pass this ince)-The Bill arises from a situation that Bill to give them transferability of long the Minister of Health created in a unique service leave. It is a sorry state that this way. He designed a system of payment for House is forced into. The Opposition does pre-school teachers through a central sys­ not oppose the Bill. tem so that it was possible to provide con­ tinuity of service between various pre-school The motion was agreed to. centres. He needed to do that because of the The Bill was read a second time, and way in which funding has been rearranged passed through its remaining stages. for pre-school centres and because of the change in the Government's attitude to­ DAIRY INDUSTRY BILL wards various levels of pre-school training The House went into Committee for the and withdrawal of funds. People who were further consideration of this Bill. employed at some pre-school centres found Discussion was resumed of clause 20. that funds for their sessions had been with­ drawn so that it was necessary for them to The Hon. D. E. KENT (Minister of Agri­ transfer to another centre if they wished to culture)-When this Bill was last before the maintain employment in that area. Because Committee, progress was reported on clause of the uncertainties and the changes that 20 to obtain agreement for the recovery of have been brought about year after year and a portion of the cost of the provision of haphazard Government funding, it was quality control services by the industry and, necessary to provide transferability entitle­ consequently, the Government has come up ments for pre-school teachers. with an amendment. I move: The Opposition does not oppose the Bill. Clause 20, page 16, line 6, omit "the amount" and It believes it has been brought about largely insert "an amount being equivalent to 75 per centum". by the incompetence of the Minister of To make an intelligent decision on the sub­ Health in another place. Pre-school centres ject, it is necessary also to take into account run by municipalities and other bodies have the following amendment to clause 20 cir­ been put to inconvenience by his actions. culated in my name, which indicates that They are upset, because, after running their no contribution will be sought from the au- 1156 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Dairy Industry Bill thority until such time as the audited cost and it will be an amount on the price per of the provision of quality services is part litre of milk, which represents the provision of a price determination. for the estimated payment for quality assur­ The CHAIRMAN (the Hon. K. I. M. ance services under this clause. Wright)-Order! It would be in order for The Hon. D. E. Kent-That is under the the Minister to also elaborate on the follow­ estimated cost. ing proposed amendment. The Hon. B. P. DUNN-I read the pro­ The Hon. D. E. KENT-In that way the vision only in part. In the past, the Govern­ cost ofquality control services recovered by ment and the Department of Agriculture the department through the authority will have provided this service. That service is be only following the inclusion of the cost part of the department's responsibility. of the service in a price determination. The However, honourable members now have estimated cost of the provision of that serv­ before them a new concept and a new prin­ ice is approximately 0·3 cents a litre, and ciple. the Government believes it gives protection The Government said: "We are going to to the industry. It ~uarantees that the Gov­ make everybody pay for the services that ernment is not taking something out of any we provide; we are going to tax you to pay portion of the industry which is not in­ for the department out of consolIdated rev­ cluded in the price determination. enue; then we are going to tax you again for The Hon. D. G. CROZIER (Western what the department does to help you". That Province)-I understand the argument pre­ was the proposal, and honourable members sented by the Minister in an attempt to reach should have no fears about that. If this prin­ a compromise on this clause. However, the ciple were applied across a whole range of Opposition does not accept the proposed departments, what might eventuate is a amendments put forward by the Minister horrifying thought. for the reason that I elaborated when this This clause was originally an attempt by clause was under discussion on the last oc­ the Minister to levy a tax on dairy farmers, casion it was before the Committee. Basi­ whether it be a tax to pay for quality assur­ cally, the question is: Are the producers ance or for whatever purpose, and the Min­ being required to fund, in this case, 75 per ister could specify anything. Under the cent of the cost of quality assurance or not? clause honourable members are now debat­ Regardless of the provision of audits, which ing, the Minister was given enormous certainly eliminates any doubt about the ex­ power; he could get together with the Treas­ act cost, the principle remains: Is this serv­ urer and decide how much they needed to ice to be provided as it has been provided recoup for quality assurance costs, and the in the past, as a service by the department authority would then be required to con­ to the producer, or not? The Minister is tribute towards the recoupment of that ex­ saying that, whereas before the entire costs penditure. could be recouped, now, no more than 75 The provision was completely open- per cent can be recouped. The Minister's -ended, and there was no way known that con~~ntion really does not persuade the Op­ the National Party would have a bar of it. It posItIon to accept the amendment, and it was just not on. The National Party stands stands fast in its opposition to the clause. firmly against the original clause. The The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western amendment with which the Minister has Province)-Through this amendment, the now moved does not have the approval of Minister is really proposing to transfer this the National Party either, because it is the charge.' which was originally to be levied on same principle, only, this time, he is not !he daIry farmers for the purpose of provid­ levying a tax on the producer, but on the Ing qu~li~y assurance to.the dairy industry. consumer, for a service that was previously The MImster then came Into the House with paid for by the taxpayer. The Minister has a Bill that would require farmers to pay the not been prepared to give milk producers cost of quality assurance services. He has approval for an increase in milk prices since now come into this place with another pro­ he has been in office. posal to put that levy on to the price ofmilk; The Hon. D. E. Kent interjected. that is what is proposed in the amendment. The Hon. B. P. DUNN-Perhaps the The Minister proposes to put a tax on milk, Minister approved ofan increase in the early Dairy Industry Bill 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1157 stage, but it has been some eighteen months MrReid Tellers: since there has been any increase in milk MrStorey MrLong prices, and yet other costs have increased; MrWard MrRadford State Electricity Commission charges have increased by 50 per cent. The milk produc­ NOES ers have been crucified by other costs, and MrAmold MrMurphy Mrs Coxsedge MrPullen the Minister, under the Government's ex­ MrsDixon MrSandon isting policy of cheap food and poor pro­ MrHenshaw MrSgro ducers, has not been prepared to provide MrsHogg MrWalker any increase to them. However, he is pre­ MrKennan MrWhite pared to increase the price of milk to try to MrKennedy gather a few more dollars to prop up the MrKent Tellers: Department of Agriculture. I do not blame Mr Mackenzie MrsKimer him for doing that, in away, because his MrMier MrMcArthur department has been decimated by the PAIRS Government. MrBlock MrButler The Hon. D. G. Crozier-"Milked" you MrHoughton Mr Landeryou might say, Mr Dunn. The CHAIRMAN (the Hon. K. I. M. The Hon. B. P. DUNN-That is correct. Wright)-As the Minister's next amend­ The amount of money that the Department ment to the clause is consequential on the of Agriculture has available to it is grossly amendment just dealt with, I take it that the inadequate for the responsibilities it has. honourable gentleman will not proceed with The Minister is trying to obtain a few more that amendment. dollars. The National Party says to the Min­ ister: "Put agriculture in the priority in The Hon. D. E. KENT (Minister of Agri- which it should be and you will not need to culture)-That is correct, Mr Chairman. recoup this money from the producer or The clause was negatived. from the consumer; give the department the Clauses 21 to 27 were agreed to. priority that it should have; let Rob Jolly, the Treasurer, give you the money you ought Clause 28 was verbally amended, and, as to have to run your department, and none amended, was adopted, as were clauses 29 of this rot will be necessary". to 33. The National Party intends to vote against Clause 34 the amendment and against the clause, be­ The Hon. D. G. CROZIER (Western cause it is just a back-door way of introd­ Province)-This clause relates to the con­ ucing yet another tax on the people of stitution of milk districts-or milk zones, Victoria. as they are known. I seek from the Minister The Committee divided on the question an assurance that it is not his intention to that the words proposed by Mr Kent to be abandon the system of milk districts. I have omitted stand part of the clause (the Hon. heard that this is a possibility, although K. I. M. Wright in the chair). clause 34 (2) (a) and (b) plainly states that Ayes 19 any such district that has already been pro­ Noes .. 18 claimed under the Milk Board Act 1958 or the Victorian Dairy Industry Authority Act Majority against the 1977 and which is currently in force, will amendment remain in force. That clarifies the intent of the clause, and I seek an expression of in­ AYES tent from the Minister in this regard. MrsBaylor MrEvans Mr Birrell MrGranter The Hon. D. E. KENT (Minister of Agri­ MrBubb MrGuest culture)-I assure Mr Crozier that I too am Mr Chamberlain MrHayward concerned about that issue, and any direc­ MrConnard MrHunt tion and advice the authority obtains from MrCrozier MrKnowles the Government will be designed to pre­ MrDunn MrLawson serve the rights and the capacity of the dis- 1158 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Dairy Industry Bill tributors in any zone from outside which outlines the association's concern. It encroachment. is addressed to me and reads: The clause was agreed to, as were clauses Re: Dairy Industry Bill 35 to 37. The conference of country dairymen held in Mel­ Clause 38 bourne yesterday expressed grave concern at the dis­ The Hon. D. G. CROZIER (Western astrous effect that supermarkets entry into the market milk processing and distribution segment of the indus­ Province)-Concern has been expressed to try has on the viability of country dairymen and serv­ the Opposition party by processors about ice to consumers. the somewhat complex form of the defini­ This representative gathering of over 220 country tion of "complying milk" under the for­ dairymen have asked me to convey to you their con­ mula in clause 38 (2) and to ownership of cern and seek your help in ensuring the continuance of milk by the authority in clause 38 (5). Could orderly marketing in this industry. the MInister explain why it is necessary to have the formula as designated in clause 38 The letter referred especially to clause 48: (2), and whether he has had similar views Members of our association believe that the reten­ expressed to him concerning what has been tion of this clause circumvents the provision of clause described to me by one processor as the 45 and 46 which require VOlA to consult the Prices Commissioner when making any price determination. charade of deemed ownership under clause We don't see any valid reason for an exception to be 38 (4). made. The Hon. D. E. KENT (Minister of Agri­ As indicated earlier, our members are greatly con­ culture)-I do not claim to be expert in in­ cerned at the entry of supermarkets into this sector of terpreting the formula in clause 38 (2). the industry and the consequences of clause 48 being However, on the question of when the milk used by the VOlA to authorize the sale of milk at comes under the ownership or the control discount prices, is frightening. of the authority, nothing specifically has For the protection of dairymen throughout Victoria, been raised with me. The issue that has been particularly the small dairyman, the meeting resolved of most concern is the method of payment. that if it was not possible to delete this clause then the following amendment be introduced: The clause was agreed to, as were clauses 39 to 47. He suggested amendments which included Clause 48 the wording of Mr Crozier's amendment, and I hope to move an amendment follow­ The Hon. D. G. CROZIER (Western ing the acceptance of that moved by Mr Province)-I move: Crozier. Clause 48, line 19, omit "classes of premises" and insert "the function or event". The National Party supports the Victo­ rian Milk Distributors Association on this Concern has been expressed that as clause issue and believes the amendments will im­ ·48 is worded, supermarkets may deliber­ prove the clause. ately undercut the price of milk and threaten The Hon. R. J. LONG (Gippsland Prov­ orderly marketing. The substitution of the ince)-I agree with the views expressed by words I am suggesting for the words now in the Victorian Milk Distributors Associa­ the clause would go a long way towards ob­ tion and I agree that the wording of clause viating that possibility. 48, as drafted, is too wide. It would permit The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western the authority to make a determination of Province)-I too have an amendment on differing prices; one price for a supermar­ this clause which is complementary to Mr ket, one for a corner store, and so on. I do Crozier's amendment. Both are designed to not think that is the intention of the Gov­ achieve the same purpose: To overcome the ernment. The purpose of the clause was to concern of the Victorian Milk Distributors give power to the authority to fix the price Association that, if the clause is left as it is of milk for special functions where milk was and the authority can determine the dis­ sold and I support the proposal. counting of milk prices to certain classes of The Hon. D. E. KENT (Minister of Agri­ premises, this could allow the entry of su­ culture)-It is a question of interpretation, permarkets into discount pricing of milk but I think everyone has the same inten­ through various outlets. I received a letter tion. The intention of the Government was dated 5 October from Mr Llew Fernando, to prevent the necessity of arriving at a de­ the executive officer of that association, termination for every individual function. Dairy Industry Bill 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1159 The Government would have been happier that considerable pressure is exerted from if Mr Crozier had adopted a suggestion that many sources to break down the system that I made to him in private that the change prevails. Changes need to occur regarding should be to classes of functions and events access to the market in other States, but the instead of the nomination of each event. system should not be allowed to break down The Hon. D. G. CROZIER (Western in a haphazard way. Province)-I take on board the suggestion The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western by the Minister of Agriculture and indicate Province)-The National Party is not happy that the Opposition accepts the reasoning with the proposal. Companies such as Mid­ of that argument. I shall withdraw my land which put milk across the border into amendment and put another amendment. New South Wales and, which have devel­ By leave, the amendment was with­ oped markets in Canberra and other loca­ drawn. tions over a period of years, will have deducted from their entitlement in Victoria The Hon. D. G. CROZIER (Western the amount of milk they are selling inter­ Province)-I move: state. Some 3000 dairy farmers are in­ Clause 48, line 19, omit "classes of premises" and volved in the supply of milk to various insert "classes offunctions or events". companies that have developed these mar­ The amendment was agreed to. kets, which is a substantial number of Vic­ torian dairy farmers. They have strong views The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western on this issue. The United Dairyfarmers of Province)-I move: Victoria agree with the Government's view. Clause 48, line 20, omit "other" and insert "not less The president of the organization, Bill Pyle, than". wrote to the Deputy Leader of the National That amendment is complementary to the Party, Mr E. Hann on 25 October and said: purpose the National Party wishes to From the day since Midland first put milk across the achieve with this clause. border the UDV have been seeking various ways to guarantee orderly marketing ofmarket milk, yet partic­ The amendment was agreed to, as was a ipate interstate. verbal amendment, and the clause, as We do this for three reasons. One, we believe that amended, was adopted, as were clauses 49 orderly marketing of market milk guarantees a return to 54. to the dairyfarmer to which he is entitled for the cost Clause 55 involved. Secondly, we believe that there should be The Hon. D. E. KENT (Minister of Agri­ interstate trade as there is in most other products. And thirdly with the difficulties we have experienced in culture)-I move: overcoming section 92, it is our understanding that the Clause 55, page 37, line 20, after "month" insert amendment to clause 55, as proposed by the Minister, "subject to a reduction in any particular case by such is the only way to go. amount as the Authority deems appropriate having As it happens this proposal was put forward by the regard to the quantity of market milk sold outside its UDV some four months ago. We see it as achieving control". our aim of being totally equitable to all dairyfarmers The Government believes this clause to be in the State, as we have the present market milk scheme in the State. The way Midlands were doing it was sim­ critical. It provides a mechanism to prevent ply allowing half a dozen farmers to benefit and in turn the circumvention of the system of equit­ jeopardizing orderly marketing, both of which we able sharing of market milk which has ex­ oppose. isted in Victoria since the introduction of the Victorian Dairy Industry Act in 1977. The National Party takes note of what in­ Where an amount of milk that is destined dustry organizations say to it on issues like for the whole milk market is supplied by a this. producer outside the authority and the ap­ Clause 55 will be subject to a challenge propriate price that the authority sets, it can under section 92 of the Commonwealth deduct from the share that producer or pro­ constitution and it may not be imple­ cessor obtains an amount equivalent to what mented. A substantial number of farmers has been sold as market milk. This is de­ have developed trade over the border and signed to prevent the breakdown of the they should not be penalized for doing that. marketing system in Victoria and in Aus­ The National Party has some reluctance tralia. All honourable members are aware with the clause and it wants to listen to the 1160 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Dairy Industry Bill

Minister's comments and the comments of (b) the milk or cream is produced on a dairy farm other honourable members before it makes licensed under this Act which complies with the a determination. requirements prescribed for the purposes of this sub-section; The Hon. D. E. KENT (Minister of Agri­ culture)-It is understood by all in the in­ (c) samples of the milk or cream produced on the dustry that, to protect the total industry, dairy farm- controls have to exist over people who may (i) are taken in accordance with the quality assurance programme prescribed for the gain a temporary advantage. Mr Dunn has purposes of this sub-section; said it may lead to the breakdown of the (ii) are tested in accordance with the require­ industry. The advantage that some farmers ments prescribed for the purposes of this are receiving is detrimental to the rest of the sub-section; and industry. New markets should be devel­ (iii) comply with the standards prescribed for oped by the properly constituted authority the purposes of this sub-section; and which can honour the commitments made (d) the milk or cream is packed, sealed and stored by previous Governments and this Govern­ in accordance with the requirements prescribed ment to a fair and equitable distribution of for the purposes of this sub-section. the returns from the milk industry to all farmers. Without the protection that the au­ (5) A certificate issued in respect of certified raw thority offers there would be little hope of milk or cream- negotiating any sort of national marketing (a) shall be in the prescribed form; scheme or of having any goodwill in the (b) shall be valid for the period not exceeding 30 delicate negotiations that will take place, days specified in the certificate; particularly with New South Wales, regard­ (c) shall authorize the holder ofa dairy farm licence ing milk marketing. to whom it is issued to include the words "Cer­ tificate Raw Milk" or "Certificate Raw Cream" The Hon. R. J. LONG (Gippsland Pro v­ as the case may be on packages of milk or cream ince)-I understand what the Minister of produced on that dairy farm; and Agriculture is doing, but I have some qualms (d) may be revoked by a notice in writing served by about the way in which he is doing it. The the Director-General on the holder of the dairy Government is saying that the authority farm licence if- shall decide what it pays for milk. No crite­ (i) there has been a breach of any standard or rion is given; it will become the judge and requirement prescribed for the purposes of jury. That seems to be unfair. The authority sub-section (3); or may determine that a farmer has purport­ (ii) quality assurance services have been with­ edly sold milk in some way that it disap­ drawn under section 20 (5). proves of. If that is the case, it will act as the (6) Any person who in connection with or in respect judge and jury and can decide to cut the of any unpasteurized milk or cream which is not certi­ price that it will pay to that farmer or farm­ fied raw milk or cream- ers. That is almost intolerable. The provi­ (a) uses the word "certified" either alone or in com­ sion requires more thought than the bination with any other word or words; Government is giving to it at present. (b) uses any device or means calculated to induce The amendment was agreed to, and the any person purchasing the milk or cream to be­ clause, as amended, was adopted, as were lieve that the milk or cream is certified; clauses 56 to 66. (c) sells the milk or cream as being certified raw Clause 67 milk or cream; or (d) in any manner passes off or attempts to pass off The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western any milk or cream as being certified raw milk or Province)-1 move: cream- Clause 67, page 42, after line 36 insert: shall be guilty of an offence against this Act and liable (3) This Part does not apply to or in respect of cer­ upon conviction to a penalty of not more than 100 tified raw milk or cream. penalty units for a first offence and a penalty of not (4) The Director-General shall not issue a certificate more than 200 penalty units for any subsequent under sub-section (5) in respect of any raw milk or offence. cream unless- The amendments are detailed and they bas­ (a) the milk or cream complies with standards pre­ ically prescribe the standards and the proc­ scribed for the purposes of this sub-section; ess of controlling certified raw milk or cream Dairy Industry Bill 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1161 in the State. In the Bill, as it was presented an opinion from Professor Faine, the Chair­ to the House, there is no provision made man of the Department of Microbiology at for the sale of certified raw milk or cream. Monash University. Obviously, one must The National Party proposed, and the arg­ take the advice of a person of such emin­ ument was well canvassed during the sec­ ence. ond-reading debate, that there should be However, the totality of the arguments such a provision included. Mr Hayward relating to, the quality control which would made an impassioned plea for raw cream to be exercised and the experience in Califor­ be included in the definition. The National nia, which, according to Professor Faine, is Party has taken that plea on board and cer­ not completely without blemish, does not tified raw milk or cream is included in the in any way refute the arguments in terms of amendment. consumer preference. These amendments were provided to the I do not believe, as Mr Dunn has stated, National Party on the advice of the Depart­ that the days when dairy farms could be ment of Agriculture, which must be reason­ considered an ongoing health hazard is an ably happy with the powers it has to control opinion that can be upheld. In view of what the sale of certified raw milk or cream. The has been said on the subject, on balance the National Party intends to include certified Opposition is of the opInion that the cate­ raw milk or cream on that basis. I believe gory of certified raw milk and cream should there is a market for those products even by excluded from this part, which would though it is limited. mean that the operation in Warrnambool The standards of hygiene on dairy farms could continue. are higher now because of inspection and The amendment was agreed to, and the quality assurance investigations, so the in­ clause, as amended, was adopted, as were dustry is moving away from the days when clauses 68 to 74. in some areas the dairy farm was consid­ Clause 75 ered to be a health risk. Warrnambool has The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western had a market for certified raw milk, even Province)-I move: though it is limited, and the National Party believes there should be provision for that Clause 75, page 45, after line 14 insert: situation in these amendments that will al­ "( ) The Director-General shall refuse to issue a lic­ ence in respect of a dairy fann proposed to be estab­ low the market to be controlled. lished after the commencement of this section if after The Hon. D. E. KENT (Minister of Agri­ having consulted with the United Dairy farmers of culture)-As honourable members are Victoria the Director-General considers that the issue aware, the Government opposed the inclu­ of the licence would be detrimental to the economic sion of products other than pasteurized milk welfare of the dairy industry and of the persons en­ and cream in the proposed legislation, but gaged in the dairy industry.". the Committee amended that to include This amendment allows the Director-Gen­ certified raw milk. It is in accordance with eral to refuse the issue of a licence for the that, that Mr Dunn is presenting these establishment of a new dairy farm. This amendments. clause also provides that the Director-Gen­ The Government does not support the eral must consult with the United Dairy­ sale of certified raw milk or cream but, pro­ farmers of Victoria and he must consider visions having been included in the pro­ whether the issue of a licence would be det­ posed legislation and if that is what the rimental to the economic welfare of the National Party and the Opposition desire, dairy industry and of the persons engaged then we will not divide on it. in it. The Hon. D. G. CROZIER (Western This is a power that does not have to be Province)-The Opposition supports the exercised but it is one that the Minister and National Party in this proposal for reasons the Director-General will have at their dis­ that have been adequately canvassed, as Mr posal if it is necessary to use it. At present Dunn has stated, during the second-reading in Australia there is an overproduction of debate. I understand the Minister and the dairy products. There is a national market Government's point of view. I also under­ plan and entitlement scheme that is aimed stand that the United Dairyfarmers ofVic­ to reduce the total national production from toria is influenced, among other things, by its present 5·9 billion litre level back to 5·3 1162 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Dairy Industry Bill billion litres. People are continuing to move The clause specifically refers to dairy farm into the dairying industry and one cannot licensin$. The purpose of the amendment is limit all the new licences, but the National to prOVide the Victorian Dairy Industry Party put the proposition to the Minister of Authority with the right to refuse to accept the development of some large feed-lot dairy produce or milk from any unauthor­ dairies. There are some operating and the ized or unlicensed producer or processor. National Party does not suggest that they The amendment was agreed to, as were should be closed down. There is one oper­ verbal amendments, and the clause, as ating at Charlton, which I have visited. It amended, was adopted, as were clauses 79 has made enormous advances in produc­ and 80. tion. Obviously, in the future the number Clause 81 of people coming into the industry must be watched when traditional dairy farmers are The Hon. D. E. KENT (Minister of Agri­ under economic pressure because of over­ culture)-I move: production and a fall in profits. Discretion Oause 81, lines 9 and 10, omit all words and expres­ should be exercised on the ability to refuse sions on these lines and insert: a new dairy licence and that is why the Nat­ "(a) Attending to a cow in a dairy shed on those ional Party proposed the amendment and dairy premises or milking any cow producing milk "why it commends it to the Committee. for sale;". The amendment is a response to the matter The Hon. D. E. KENT (Minister of Agri­ raised in another place about prevention of culture)-Obviously, the socialist left fac­ people with bandages or diseases from at­ tion in Mr Dunn's party has had a victory tending to a cow. The amendment specifies in endeavouring to control and prevent in­ a situation in which a person with an unhy­ dividual choice of enterprise. I assure him gienic bandage or a disease is unable to at­ that I am ideologically attracted to having tend to a cow. Previously the provision the authority control the issuing of licences, covered all farm operations. but to simply insert in the proposed legisla­ tion a power to do so on economic grounds The amendment was agreed to, and the without specifying any type of control over clause, as amended, was adopted, as were the production of those people who already clauses 82 to 96. have the good fortune to have a licence is Clause 97 was verbally amended, and, as not acceptable to the Government. It is not amended, was adopted, as were clauses 98 prepared to accept this amendment because to 128. it believes it does not provide the capacity Clause 129 was verbally amended, and, to deal adequately and fairly with the total as amended, was adopted, as were the re­ issue of licensing and production. maining clauses. The Hon. D. G. CROZIER (Western Discussion was resumed of postponed Province)-The Opposition supports the clause 7 and ofMr Dunn's amendment: argument put forward by the Minister of Oause 7, page 8, lines 39 to 44, and page 9, lines I to Agriculture on the clause. Although mem­ 3, omit sub-clause (3). bers of the Opposition fully understand the The CHAIRMAN (the Hon. K. I. M. reasons why Mr Dunn has advanced the Wright)-Order! When this clause was amendment, the Opposition is not able to postponed the Committee was considering support it. amendment No. 2 of Mr Dunn. This The amendment was negatived, and the amendment calls for the omission of sub­ clause was agreed to, as were clauses 76 and clause (3). 77. The Minister has now given notice of his Clause 78 intention through his further amendment No. 1 to move for the omission of "The" at The" Hon. D. E. KENT (Minister of Agri­ the commencement of the sub-clause with culture)-I move: a view to inserting other words. Oause 78, page 46, line 37, omit "in force" and The Committee must first deal with Mr insert "or corresponding authority in force under this Dunn's amendment. However, I shall allow Act or any corresponding law of another State or Ter­ the Minister to canvass his proposals at this ritory of the Commonwealth". stage. Dairy Industry Bill 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1163

The Hon. D. E. KENT (Minister of Agri­ The Committee divided on the question culture)-The amendment covers the con­ that the expression proposed by Mr Dunn cerns that were expressed by speakers during to be omitted stand part of the clause (the the debate, that there may be an opportu­ Hon. K. I. M. Wright in the chair). nity for the Victorian Dairy Industry Au­ Ayes 35 thority to compete with existing facilities in Noes .. 2 commercial activities and production proc­ esses. The capacity for the authority to be Majority against the involved in that type of action is already amendment 33 available. It is certainly not intended that there should be competition. For that rea­ AYES son, I foreshadow that I shall move: Mr Arnold MrKnowles MrsBaylor Mr Landeryou Clause 7, page 8, line 39, omit "The" and insert Mr Birrell MrLong "Where the Authority satisfied the Minister that any MrBlock Mr Mackenzie section of the dairy industry is being under serviced by MrBubb MrMcArthur the commercial section of the dairy industry and that Mr Chamberlain MrMier the dairy industry would significantly benefit from the MrCrozier MrPullen participation of the Authority in that section the". MrsDixon MrRadford It would still require the consent or direc­ MrGranter MrReid tion of the Minister. That meets the con­ MrGuest MrSandon cerns expressed by the Opposition and the MrHayward MrSgro MrHenshaw MrStorey National Party. MrsHogg MrWalker The sitting was suspended at 12.58 p.m. MrHunt MrWard until 2.3 p.m. MrKennan MrWhite MrKennedy Tellers: The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western MrKent MrConnard Province)-During the suspension of the MrsKirner MrMurphy sitting I have further considered the Minis­ ter's proposed amendment to the sub-clause, NOES which is an improvement, but the National Tellers: Party is still not happy with it and believes MrDunn the industry is geared up sufficiently so that MrEvans there is no need for the authority to become The CHAIRMAN (the Hon. K. I. M. involved in the manufacturing aspect. Wriaht)-I invite the Minister to formally Private enterprise is well in control of that move his amendment to clause 7. aspect. I do not know whether the Minister The Hon. D. E. KENT (Minister of Agri­ can foreshadow any possible need for the culture)-I move: authority to be involved in the future or Clause 7, page 8, line 39, omit "The" and insert whether he is making a broad provision just "Where the Authority satisfies the Minister that any in case. section of the dairy industry is being under serviced by The National Party still intends to pro­ the commercial section of the dairy industry and that ceed with its amendment to disallow any the dairy industry would significantly benefit from the power being given to the authority to be­ participation of the Authority in that section the". come involved in the manufacture of dairy The amendment was agreed to. products, and will not support the Minis­ The Hon. R. J. LONG (Gippsland Prov­ ter's foreshadowed amendment. Although ince)-I am having some difficulty with the it is an improvement, it is not sufficient to wording of sub-clause (3). I know it now has meet the needs of the National Party. the preamble moved by the Minister but, The Hon. D. G. CROZIER (Western leaving that aside, the sub-clause provides Province)-Although the Opposition has that the authority may, with the approval some reservations about the Minister's pro­ of the Governor in Council, manufacture posed amendment to sub-clause (3), on bal­ dairy produce. Dairy produce is defined as ance, it is acceptable. My colleague, Mr meaning milk, market milk, cream, butter Long, will further comment on this aspect and a number of other items such as cheese at the appropriate stage. and concentrated milks. 1164 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Dairy Industry Bill

I understand how one manufactures after the word "distribution" there were inserted the cheese and butter, but I have difficulty un­ words "subject to a reduction in any particular case by derstanding how one manufactures milk. such amount as the Authority deems appropriate hav­ ing regard to the quantity of milk for sale or delivery Can the Minister assure honourable mem­ for the purpose of human consumption as a liquid sold bers that at no stage will the authority be outside its control". empowered to operate farms to produce (2) Upon the commencement of section 130 this milk? section shall be repealed'. The Hon. D. E. KENT (Minister of Agri­ culture)-I can give an unequivocal assur­ The purpose of the clause is to empower the ance that the authority will not be authority in the interim, before the procla­ empowered to run dairy farms, unless all mation of the new Act, to ensure that any the dairy farmers surrender their properties milk that is sold outside its jurisdiction is and expect the Government to produce the deducted from the share that a producer milk. There is no suggestion that the au­ receives of the proceeds of Victorian mar­ thority should be involved in an operation ket milk. of any nature in which any private enter­ The Hon. B. P. Dunn-Does this make prise or co-operative organization is pre­ provision for the interstate issue? pared to carry out that production. As has The Hon. D. E. KENT-It provides for been said before, the only purpose of the the issue that we discussed in relation to provision is to provide for a situation where clause 55. a producer, a processor or a manufacturer is not prepared or competent to produce a The Hon. B. P. Dunn-This is a transi­ product for which there is an identified tional provision to allow it to operate until market. when? The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western The Hon. D. E. KENT-Until the pro­ Province)-I make it clear that the Na­ clamation of the new Act. tional Party opposes the clause, even though The Hon. B. P. Dunn-When will the it has now been amended. I have difficulty transitional provision come into operation? in calling a division on the question. Al­ The Hon. D. E. KENT-In my view, it though I would like to vote against sub­ will come into effect on the passing of the clause (3), it is not possible to do that. The Bill. National Party tried to delete that sub-clause The new clause was agreed to, as was the and failed to do so, the Liberal and Labor schedule. parties voting against the amendment. Nevertheless, I make it clear that, although The Bill was reported to the House with the amendment has been tested, the Na­ amendments, and the amendments were tional Party remains opposed to the sub­ adopted. clause. On the motion of the Hon. D. E. KENT However, clause 7 involves far more than (Minister of Agriculture), the Bill was read the one sub-clause, so the National Party a third time. will not call a division on the clause, but I The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western want our objection to this continuing power Province)-I move that the following con­ being given to the authority to be noted so sequential amendment be made to the Bill: that the position is clear to those who con­ sult the record in the future. Clause 3, page 2, omit the interpretation of "Certi­ The postponed clause, as amended, was fied raw milk" and insert the following interpretation: , "Certified raw milk: or cream" means milk or cream agreed to. which has not been pasteurized and in respect of which New clause there is in force a certificate issued under section 67 The Hon. D. E. KENT (Minister of Agri­ (5).'. culture)-I move: The PRESIDENT-I advise honourable Insert the following new clause to follow clause 136: members that Standing Order No. 287 Transitional Provision reads: 'AA. (1) Until the day on which section 130 comes After a Bill has been read a third time, verbal or into operation, section 38 (3) of the Victorian Dairy consequential amendments, and none other, may be Industry Authority Act 1977 shall be construed as if made. Federated Ship Painters and Dockers Union 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1165

I understand this is a consequential because the volume deals with highly sen­ amendment and it is, therefore, in order. sitive current investigations which, in the The amendment was agreed to. view of the Royal Commissioner, could be impeded-if not destroyed-by disclosure. It was ordered that the Bill be returned to the Assembly with a message relating to Some people will see the deletions in the amendments. tabled volumes as an open invitation to speculation. Let me say that such specula­ FEDERATED SHIP PAINTERS AND tion is bound to be an entirely unproductive DOCKERS UNION exercise. Worse, it could tarnish the repu­ tations of innocent people, and it could The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for impede current investigations by law en­ Planning and Environment) presented, by forcement agencies. The report has been command of His Excellency the Governor, tabled as soon, and as extensively, as possi­ Volumes I to 5 and Appendices lA to IC of ble. My Government has observed strict se­ the Final Report of the Royal Commission curity requirements in the handling of the into the Activities of the Federated Ship report and it will continue to do so. It may Painters and Dockers Union. be possible to release volumes 7-11 of the It was ordered that the report be laid on report once charges have been heard and the table. investigations completed. MINISTERIAL STATEMENT Obviously, this report is of national con­ Federated Ship Painters and Dockers sequence. The Premier intends to distribute Union copies of the public volumes immediately to all other State Premiers. The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Planning and Environment)-I wish to EVALUATION OF THE COMMIS­ make a Ministerial statement on the Final SION'SWORK Report of the Royal Commission into the Turning to the Royal Commission itself, Activities of the Federated Ship Painters and the final report is-by any reckoning-an Dockers Union. impressive document. It comes at the end This final report by Mr Frank Costigan, of an exhaustive inquiry. The commission QC, brings to an end a Royal Commission heard evidence from more than a thousand that has lasted four years and been of enor­ witnesses. It held 169 public and 279 confi­ mous value to this country. dential hearings. Evidence was taken CONFIDENTIALITY throughout Australia by a commission that was determined to lift the veil of organized The Royal Commissioner recommended crime. that the first five volumes only of his final The commission amassed some 20 000 report be tabled. These volumes are now tabled together with appendices. Three of files and more than 2 million documents. the volumes tabled contain certain dele­ More importantly, it developed in the proc­ tions which have been made upon the ad­ ess an entirely new system ofcriminal analy­ vice of the Commonwealth and Victorian sis using the most up-to-date computer Directors of Public Prosecutions and the technology. Those techniques will be among National Crime Authority. The deletions are the most enduring legacies of this commis­ because of possible prejudice to investiga­ sion. tions or prosecutions either current or im­ After four years and the expenditure of minent. No deletions have been made on $12 million, we should now begin to assess political grounds. the work of the commission and, when we It is imperative that confidentiality be do, it is immediately clear that its effects maintained in respect of names deleted from can be seen at two distinct levels. the tabled volumes, and in respect of the In the short term, it has resulted in many remaining six volumes. The Royal Com­ prosecutions; millions of dollars have been missioner recommended that the latter six recovered; many laws have been changed volumes be confidential for various rea­ and doubtless many more will be. It has sons. In some cases, for example, it is be­ also set a busy agenda for investigations and cause the confidential volume deals with reforms in the years ahead. Many specific persons who are on trial. In other cases it is matters will have to be followed up by Gov- Session 1984-43 1166 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Ministerial Statement ernment and the National Crime Authority, people? And how far are other considera­ and some will take, not months, but years, tions-such as the pursuit of profit, the to evaluate and then put in place. pressure of competition or even the ac­ At another level, Mr Costigan has raised cepted practice of the profession-an ex­ some profoundly important social issues. cuse for conduct that is morally and socially There is no doubt that, in these past four unacceptable?" years, some basic community perceptions I think that most people would now agree have been shattered. Indeed, it is possible that business competition and the quest for to say that there has been a loss of inno­ profit can never justify the use of commer­ cence in Australian society. In essence cial facilities to support criminal activity. though, Mr Costigan has put beyond dis­ Neither should professional advisers pro­ pute that organized crime exists on a major vide their services in support of activities scale in our society. Five or ten years ago, that they know or reasonably suspect to be no one thought that. Mr Costigan has shown illegal. Those commercial institutions and us the ugly face of organized crime, how it professional organizations concerned have thinks, how it works, and how it has reached a clear responsibility to cleanse their ranks. into otherwise respectable society. The Costigan inquiry has raised issues The commission has reassured us that that 'go to the heart of our society. Some of there is no monolithic criminal organiza­ these will not be easily resolved-for ex­ tion, no single crime czar. But there are in­ ample, the natural justice issues involved in stead a number of sophisticated criminals, extending the investigatory powers of law grouped together in loose alliances, sus­ enforcement agencies. The inquiry has ex­ tained by unscrupulous professionals-ac­ posed some profound inequities, and it has countants, lawyers and bank managers­ made us think about the kind of society we and using lower-level "mechanics"-like have and the kind we want it to be. painters and dockers-to do their dirty HISTORY OF THE COMMISSION work. These people exist and prosper; they operate nationally and internationally; they Let us now recall for a moment the origins are clever and use the best resources of of this inquiry. When it was first commis­ modem technology. sioned by the former Commonwealth and Mr Costigan has also shown us the inad­ Victorian Governments in late 1980, the equacy of traditional law enforcement final scope of investigations by the Royal methods, and the need for new approaches Commission could not have been foreseen. to fighting organized crime. He has sug­ From an examination of the illegal activ­ gested a range of weapons that he believes ities of a relatively small waterfront union, are necessary for law enforcement agencies the Royal Commission's investigations to keep pace with the rapid development of came to encompass organized crime across organized crime. They include upgrading a wide spectrum. It progressively disclosed law enforcement capabilities and tech­ valuable information about those who or­ niques through the use of computers and ganize and profit from drug trafficking, SP computer analysis; new ways to attack bookmaking, insurance frauds, taxation criminal profits through tax investigation; frauds and other criminal practices. new legislation and harsher penalties. It is now possible to see how inevitable Mr Costigan has also raised basic issues that progression was. Involvement by about commercial and professional moral­ painters and dockers in the notorious "bot­ ity. He has shown clearly the role of some tom of the harbour" taxation fraud was just members of the professional community in the tip of an iceberg. These men often support of organized crime, .in providing proved to be the agents of more sophisti­ corporate "aliases", false accounts and un­ cated criminals whose activities were car­ secured loans, as well as tax and corporate ried out across the nation. It was these high schemes that are plainly and thoroughly ranking criminals who reaped enormous dishonest. I believe that in this area, the profits at the expense of their fellow citi­ repercussions ofMr Costigan's work are sure zens. Their crimes included murder, theft to be felt for many years to come. In effect, and many kinds of fraud, and they ex­ the basic questions he poses are these: ploited respectable institutions to shield "What are the ethical duties of professional their activities and protect their profits. Ministerial Statement 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1167

The Costigan commission was right to achieving maximum compatibility. And concentrate on the principals behind orga­ only this week, the Victorian Minister for nized crime. Only in this way could it come Police and Emergency Services announced to an understanding of the nature of orga­ a $19 million computer package for our nized crime in Australia. For that we are police. indebted to the commissioner and his staff, The Victorian Attorney-General has also the special prosecutors and law enforce­ proposed new amendments to the Compa­ ment agencies, including our own Police nies Act. These have been accepted by the Force, which have co-operated closely with Ministerial Council for Companies and Se­ him. curities and by virtue of the Common­ ACTION BY STATE AND FEDERAL wealth-State agreement, will automatically GOVERNMENTS be incorporated into the Companies Code In carrying out his work, Mr Costigan by all States. These amendments will enable sought assistance from a wide range of Gov­ information concerning beneficial share­ ernment agencies. I am pleased to say that holdings to be obtained in relation to all within Victoria Mr Costigan commends the companies. Up to now this has only been Department of Premier and the Cabinet, possible with companies listed on the stock the Law Department and the Corporate Af­ exchange. fairs Office for their ready, willing and com­ In relation to all new transfers of shares petent assistance. He also commends the in non-listed companies, non-beneficial Victorian Crown Solicitor for efficiently holders will also be· required to state on representing the commission in proceed­ whose behalf they hold the shares and in ings brought in an attempt to halt its inves­ what capacity. Legislation is also proposed tigations. The commissioner has also to require certain additional information for recorded his appreciation of the valuable the identification of company officers. These assistance provided by the Victoria Police. proposals will ensure that the use of nomi­ The interim reports provided a number nees to conceal unethical or illegal purposes of recommendations, and kept Govern­ can be revealed. ments advised on the activities of the com­ Many of Mr Costigan's recommenda­ mission's investigations. tions on tax controls are for the Common­ It has to be said, too, that the early work wealth to consider. However, it should be of the Victorian Government investi~ators, noted that the National Companies and Se­ McCabe and LaFranchi, also contnbuted curities Commission has embodied in a much to the success of the Royal Commis­ policy statement a requirement for full dis­ sion, particularly in the area of Ubottom of closure of tax implications in any prospec­ the harbour" tax avoidance. It was this fraud tus which makes reference to tax benefits. which Mr Costigan described as yielding Already numerous charges have been laid profits "comparable only to the heady days under Victorian law arising from investiga­ of the Victorian gold rush". tions by the Costigan Royal Commission. In addition to "bottom of the harbour" These have covered offences such as per­ frauds, the commission's interim reports jury, forgery, theft, kidnapping, assault, il­ made us aware of other fraudulent practices legal betting, social security fraud, unlawful and criminal abuses of the taxation, bank­ possession of firearms and breaches of the ing and exchange systems. I will not com­ Companies Act. In some cases, both Com­ ment on interim report recommendations monwealth and Victorian charges are pro­ within the ambit of the Commonwealth, but ceeding concurrently. this Government has itself acted on a num­ The appointment by the Commonwealth ber of other recommendations. of two special prosecutors, Mr Roger Gyles, The Royal Commission regarded com- QC, and Mr Robert Redlich, greatly facili­ . puterization of corporate and police records tated the preparation of prosecutions aris­ as an important element in controlling ing from the work of the Royal Commission. crime. Victoria has already decided to com­ The report records a substantial outcome in puterize its Corporate Affairs Office, and it terms of successful prosecutions and tax re­ has, together with New South Wales, en­ coveries by the Commonwealth and the gaged a consultant to advise on the devel­ States. To put this in perspective, the Royal opment of these facilities with a view to Commission over its four-year life cost some 1168 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Ministerial Statement

$12 million. Tax assessments issued as a I may say by way of summary that Mr result of information provided by the com­ Costigan's recommendations are very wide mission totalled a minimum of $25 million in their scope and apply to a diverse range to July 1983. The crackdown by the Taxa­ of Government agencies and private sector tion Office in tandem with special prosecu­ bodies such as banks and building societies. tor Gyles is reported by August 1984 to have To give an idea of their scope, I indicate netted about $333 million with about $275 some of the major proposals. Mr Costigan million still to be collected. recommends: The Victorian Director of Public Prose­ strengthening the powers of Royal Com­ cutions and special prosecutor Redlich have missions; proposed legislation facilitating the conduct transferring the entire electronic data-base ofjoint Commonweath-State trials. of the Costigan commission to State Victorian police have co-operated closely and Federal law enforcement agencies; with both the Costigan and Stewart Royal preparing new joint guidelines for pro­ Commissions and in doing so have achieved active law enforcement and selective some notable successes. The most recent investigations of suspects; was in relation to the Mackay and Wilson enactin~ new laws to outlaw extortionate murders, but they have also waged an effec­ practices by trade unions and prevent tive campaign against illegal SP activities. criminals from holding office in trade Since September 1981, 550 people had unions; and been charged with offences arising from in­ a totally new "organized crime law" that vestigations by Task Force Zebra, a special hits out at any criminal organization, unit investigating SP bookmaking in Vic­ anyone who associates with it, and any toria. Some 440 of these people have ap­ profits derived from it. peared before courts and paid fines totalling Mr Costigan further recommends: $880 000. Many SP operators have been forced to move their operations out of this The establishment of a new Port Security State. Authority to co-ordinate the fight against crime on the waterfront; THE FINAL REPORT AND ITS a broad, national attack on illegal book­ RECOMMENDATIONS making including increased penalties, the recovery of illegal profits and pro­ I now turn to the content and recommen­ posing a reference to the National dations of the final report of the Royal Crime Authority; Commission. setting up a new Taxation Investigation Volume 1 outlines in general terms the Tribunal and taxation investigator with scope of the inquiry. It also deals with the wide powers to conduct investigations practices adopted by the commission to en­ and public hearings, set up task forces sure that those coming before it were treated aimed to track down criminal income with fairness. Volume 2 sets out the inno­ and illegal practices and work with vative, and successful, investigative tech­ other law enforcement agencies; niques developed by the commission. These techniques, involving the use of computers increasing criminal penalties for the con­ to analyse the paper trails left by organized cealment of major crimes; and crime figures, mean that major crime can be amendments to strengthen the Common­ tracked to its source. Volume 3 reports on wealth Bankruptcy Act and the Victo­ illegal activities carried out by members of rian Building Societies and Bail Acts. the Ship Painters and Dockers Union. Vol­ In total Mr Costigan lists 42 key recom­ ume 4 deals with SP bookmaking and vol­ mendations. ume 5 examines aspects of drug trafficking in Australia. Appendices that have been THE STATE GOVERNMENT'S tabled today list the witnesses who came RESPONSE before public hearings of the commission, In terms of the Victorian Government's legal representatives who appeared for wit­ response, there are a number of immediate nesses in public sessions and a list of public issues that will have to be closely examined, exhibits. not only by my Government but by the Ministerial Statement 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1169

Commonwealth and many specific State and ernments. Thirdly, I re-assert our determi­ joint agencies. There are such questions as nation that, as far as the Victorian resources for new equipment; evidence for Government is concerned, all breaches of prosecutions; new legislation proposed; new Victorian law will be fully investigated and structures and co-operative mechanisms. All prosecuted, without fear or favour. of these things need to be carefully exam­ I should also like to give an assurance ined and evaluated. After a mere five days that my Government will do all that it can it would not be reasonable to expect any to support the valuable work of the Government to give a detailed response to National Crime Authority. Legislation to all ofMr Costigan~s recommendations. enable co-operation with the authority is The commissioner himself has said that now before this House. The Government a proper and considered Government re­ has every confidence that the authority­ sponse on many of the issues he raised may under the guidance of its Chairman, Mr take "some months. His report makes it clear Justice Stewart-will carry out its role effec­ that only a co-ordinated attack on orga­ tively. nized crime can succeed. No one State could hope to defeat it by itself. THE LEGACY OF THE COSTIGAN COMMISSION We must recognize that we have no time to lose. The sobering message from the Cos­ The Costigan commission shows conclu­ tigan report is that the gap between orga­ sively that the attack on organized crime nized crime and the law enforcement cannot be carried by governments alone. It agencies has not narrowed. I am, therefore, is a responsibility which must be borne by very conscious of the need to act as quickly all sections of our society including the as possible and at least give "in principle" providers of commercial and professional agreement to as many recommendations as services. Only by isolating criminals and possible in the time available. exposing their activities can there be any My Government has therefore already real prospect of containing organized crime. considered Mr Costigan~s major recom­ I do not pretend that the issues the com­ mendations in some detail, and prepared a mission raises can be easily resolved, now preliminary response to each one. In the or even in the years to come, but there is no separate document tabled with this state­ doubt that Mr Costigan has put them ment, each of these is briefly discussed, and squarely on the agenda. There is no way the State Government's response indicated. that we can avoid confronting them. Of these 42 recommendations, 18 are di­ I believe it is by these issues, as much as rected at the Commonwealth or other agen­ the more immediate results of his work­ cies outside Victoria. Of the remaining 24 the prosecutions, the tax recovered and law recommendations, the Victorian Govern­ reforms-that we should judge the value of ment now indicates its agreement in prin­ this commission. That is not to say that ciple to 18, whilst 6 require further everyone will agree with all or even most of consideration. Mr Costigan's conclusions. Rather than going through each of these One of the fundamental issues raised by one by one, I have chosen instead to table a the Costigan commission is that of natural separate document with this statement in­ justice. That is perhaps an unavoidable dicating each of Mr Costigan's major rec­ consequence of new approaches to orga­ ommendations and my Government's nized crime fighting. Mr Costigan has made response to it. I now seek leave to table this us question the value of what have been document. regarded as traditional legal freedoms. He I also wish to make a number of other has forced us to weigh more carefully the specific commitments about my Govenl­ interests of the victims of crime against ment's response. First, the Government will those of people suspected of crime. My ensure that detailed examination of the re­ Government is firmly of the view that in ports by the appropriate State agencies be­ the fight against organized crime, individ­ gins without delay. Secondly, we will ual rights must be preserved. immediately approach the Commonwealth The Costigan inquiry has also raised fun­ to determine a concerted approach to those damental questions about our duties as cit­ matters requiring joint action by both Gov- izens-about the morality of tax and tax- 1170 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Industrial Relations (Amendment) Bill payment. All of us have a duty to P8:Y tax. INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS That duty is not ~erely ~ legal OI~e. ~t IS also (AMENDMENT) BILL a social duty. paying tax IS the pn~clpal way The debate (adjourned from October 30) by which we contribute to the maintenance on the motion of the Hon. J. H. Ken~an of society and support those less advan­ (Attorney-General) for the second reading taged than ourselves. Yet in many ways­ of this Bill was resumed. at least for non pay-as-you-earn ta~pa~­ ers-this obligation is a private and Indi­ The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western vidual one. Indeed, for some it seems to Province)-The proposed legislation deals have become an option, rather than a duty. with a number of amendments, not all of which relate to the Industrial Relations Act. Over many years, it has become rela­ The National Party agrees with some bl;lt tively easy for self-employed or corporate not with others. There are three baSIC taxpayers to engage in a variety of question­ amendments and the one that concerns the able practices to avoid tax. They.have used National Party, and to which Mr Bub!? re­ fictitious or artificial schemes With profes­ ferred is the increase in the power of unions sional assistance, with the sanction of !he to enf~rce compulsory unionism. This is. an highest courts in the land. I ~m not refemng area that the National Party has consist- simply to the more exotic and extreme ently opposed. . cases-the "bottom-of-the-harbour" schemes and the wet and dry Slutzkins, I The second major amendment ~hat IS mean many otherwise honest people who listed in the Bill relates to preferentI~1 em­ would not dream of cheating at golf or short­ ployment or dismissal of a person ~In~, or changing the till. But somehow, over many not being, a member of an organIZatIon, years amongst these people, a grey area has association or body. deveioped between legality ,~n~ I!l0~li~y. ~! The Hon. M. J. Sandon-You are talking has been assumed that tax minimIZatIon about compulsory unionism; that is not and tax "avoidance" are acceptable and compulsory unionism. even smart. Mr Costigan has shaken that The Hon. B. P. DUNN-That is close assumption to its foundations. enough for the National Party, which. be­ Finally in evaluating the achievements lieves that that provision allows the u~lons of the R~yal Commission, we should not to force people into the bondage of unions. judge its success. simply.by the nUI?1bers of If preference is going to be given to those prosecutions achieved as a result of ItS work, persons who belong to unions, then .peo~le even though these have been substantial. It will be forced into a compulsory union Sit­ is not the task of Royal Commissions to uation. The National Party believes people prosecute criminals. That task belongs to have a right to decide whether they want to law enforcement agencies and prosecutors be members of a union and that should not appointed for the purpose. impinge on their employment. Another amendment in the Bill was re­ The Royal Commissioner sho~s con~lu­ sively that the attack on organized cnme ferred to when discussing a ~easure l~st night relating to employee~' nghts to In­ cannot be carried by Governments alone. It spect their records. That Bill was debated is a responsibility whic~ mus~ be b

National Party will take up the issue during same power which exists at the Common­ the Committee stage, as I understand Mr wealth level-no less, no different. It is ex­ Bubb has given notice of an amendment traordinary that in the latter part of the that he will be bringing forward. At this twentieth century it is not possible under stage, it is the National Party's intention to State law, simply because of some ideologi­ support the amendment. cal hangup of the previous Government, for The Hon. W. A. LANDERYOU (Doutta employee and employer or~nizations to put Galla Province)-It is time that this House before the tribunals of thIS State the same crashed into the latter part of the twentieth types of arguments based on the same prin­ century with regard to industrial relations. ciples that are encouraged by the Common­ With the greatest respect to Mr Bubb, who wealth legislation. I think knows better than what his party The Hon. J. H. Kennan-And in other allows him to say and, with respect to Mr States. Dunn; I understand his objection to com­ pulsory unionism, but the Bill does not do The Hon. W. A. LANDERYOU-As the anything of the sort. Attorney-General has indicated, by inter­ jection, the principle also applies in other This country has a conciliation and arbi­ States. It is in that context that the "Red tration system that is used as a model for Morgue" is performing as it has done for so the rest of the world. The system has within long-ignoring the reality of industrial life. it a vision, and an object of the principal Act, which is what the Bill seeks to spell out, The Hon. Clive Bubb-Why have you not that relates to the encouragement, not com­ got a provision for registration in the Bill? pulsion, of member organizations that are The Hon. W. A. LANDERYOU-Mr registered. It is laid down as an object of the Bubb would no doubt have advised his Commonwealth Act and of the Concilia­ Leader with respect to registration-noting tion and Arbitration Commission that the the outburst against the Builders Labourers commission should encourage membership Federation. It is nonsense to publicly state of various employer and employee organi­ the emotive outbursts that the Leader of the zations. A foundation principle of concilia­ Opposition put forward because the num­ tion and arbitration in this country is to ber of disputes that have occurred in the encourage participation and membership of State jurisdiction in respect of the Builders the various organizations. Labourers Federation is extremely small. All clause 5 seeks to do is to take out of The reality is that all the Bill will do is the State Act that section of State law that give to the State jurisdiction the same power is contrary to Commonwealth law. It is an and authority which exists as of right in the extraordinary position to put, that if the Commonwealth Act. section were taken out, that would some­ The Hon. Clive Bubb-The reality is that, how create the situation where an employer by common agreement, they can do that or employee organization could have a mat­ anyway. ter of compulsion written into a registered agreement. The Hon. W. A. LANDERYOU-I will put the argument in reverse. It can occur by The Bill does nothing of the sort. All it agreement between organizations, but why seeks to do is to remove the words which should Parliament hinder the State jurisdic­ currently prevent the State Industrial Rela­ tion with a prescription that is not included tions Commission from doing that which in the Commonwealth law? its Commonwealth counterpart can do. It is absurd to believe a provision which has ex­ The Hon. Clive Bubb--You coerce one isted and stood the test of time in Common­ of the parties to enter into such an agree­ wealth jurisdiction can conjure up ment. comments such as those made by Mr Dunn. The Hon. W. A. LANDERYOU-Mr Mr Dunn's comments were completely ir­ Bubb indicated by his own interjection that relevant in the context of the clause. that can occur now. By the stance it is tak­ To underscore the point, I reiterate that ing, the Opposition is suggesting that, where all the clause seeks to do is to give to the parties have reached an agreement, a pres­ Conciliation and Arbitration Boards of the cription should be retained to prevent that State Industrial Relations Commission the agreement being given effect to under the 1172 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Industrial Relations (Amendment) Bill

State jurisdiction. If what the Liberal Party ative parties currently have. They should is suggesting to employer and employee or­ read and understand the lessons of history. ganizations of this State is to opt out of the Despite the seven years of encouraged divi­ State jurisdiction and take their problems sion by the Federal Government under the to the Commonwealth area, then it should leadership of the Honourable Malcolm have the courage to state that. Fraser, since the last Federal election this This Chamber led the way in establishing country has undergone the most rapid a tripartite approach to wage and salary fix­ transformation in industrial relations in its ation. If Mr Bubb wants to claim on behalf history. It has been done because there has of the Liberal Party that it is really asking been a determination, despite the politics for the abolition of the State jurisdiction, he played by the Liberal Party spokesman should say so to the employer organizations nationally and elsewhere, on the basis of because that is what the Liberal Party is employee and employer organizations and advocating-it wants to dismantle the State the Government being able to discuss var­ system or make it so unattractive to em­ ious problems and hopefully finding solu­ ployee and employer organizations that they tions that are made with consensus. have no other option but to join a Com­ It just seems to me that we should take monwealth system. If Mr Bubb wants to the remaining shackle off our State's juris­ suggest that, he should do so with honesty, diction and say, "Yes, on wage and salary integrity and clarity. fixation agreements in this State, we will not The Hon. Clive Bubb-We will be releas­ prevent it from using its common sense, ing our industrial policy fairly shortly. based on modern industrial relations prac­ tice, to settle disputes". The PRESIDENT-Order! It is not in order for a conversation to take place across The former Minister of Education, Mr the Chamber. The matter being discussed Hunt, used to use that approach while he should more properly be referred to during was Minister in endeavouring to solve the Committee stage when clause 5 will be problems. He often had more difficulty in considered in its own right. If Mr Lander­ selling it to his colleagues, but he at least you has remarks to make about the rest of attempted to apply that rationale. The Op­ the Bill, I invite him to do so. position is trying to say to the Government on this measure State tribunals should not The Hon. W. A. LANDERYOU-The have the same capacity as their Federal principal objection that has been taken so counterparts. That is turning back the clock, far by speakers during the debate has been and, I hope, during the Committee stage, on clause 5. I was endeavouring to save the the Opposition will get up to date with in­ time of the House and to avoid the Com­ dustrial relation matters in the latter part of mittee stage. However, presumably the the twentieth century. House is committed to that course because The Hon. A. J. HUNT (South Eastern of the amendments that are to be proposed. Province)-This Bill does raise in Quite a That will give me an opportunity of again direct way the fact that there are two juris­ putting the argument. dictions, the Commonwealth and the State, Anyone who knows anything about the and Mr Landeryou has invited my party to State industrial arena knows that what I am state precisely where it stands on the possi­ saying is common sense. The Opposition is bility ofindustrial relations moving into the trying to preserve in the law a provision Commonwealth sphere. Let me say at once that prevents a consensus arrangement from that I personally-and I believe the major­ proceeding within the State jurisdiction. If ity of my party-would have no objection one has concerns about common rule appli­ whatever to salaries, wages and conditions, cation, that is an appropriate matter to be for the prevention and resolution of dis­ addressed during the Committee stage and putes, becoming a matter which could be will give members of the Committee some­ dealt with by the Commonwealth pursuant thing to argue about rather than putting for­ to a constitutional amendment. ward a nineteenth century approach. Mr Landeryou will recall that the whole This Chamber had a better attitude 100 Victorian delegation to the last Constitu­ years ago to the Questions of industrial law tional Convention, across party lines, sup­ than what some spokesmen for the conserv- ported investigation of that concept, and Industrial Relations (Amendment) Bill 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1173 that that concept is now being considered single Commonwealth responsibility; we do by a Standing Committee of the constitu­ have that divided jurisdiction; and it is be­ tional convention that is representative of cause of that situation that Mr Bubb and al! Parliaments and all parties. I would agree my party take the position that he has out­ WIth Mr Landeryou that the resolution of lined. displ;ltes and~ more importantly, the pre­ The motion was agreed to. ventIOn of dIsputes at the moment is the The Bill was read a second time and com­ best. mitted. There is, at times, jurisdiction in the Clauses 1 to 4 were agreed to. States; there is, at times, Commonwealth jurisdiction. However, there is no Federal Clause 5 Government responsibility, as such. The . The Hon. CLIVE BUBB (Ballarat Prov­ Federal Constitution, even where there is Ince)-The arguments regarding this clause Commonwealth responsibility, provides have been extensively canvassed during the only that the Commonwealth may make second-reading debate, and I shall not re­ laws for the conciliation and arbitration of pea~ ~hem again, except to say that the Op­ disputes extending beyond the boundaries pOSItIOn opposes the clause for the reason I of the States. This means that there is no outlined duri~g that debate: My colleague, ~irect Ministerial responsibility for resolu­ Mr Hunt, agaIn spoke on thIS matter, as did tIon of those disputes, or their prevention. Mr Dunn, and I simply indicate that the It means that the Minister cannot take di­ Opposition will vote against the clause. rect administrative action; it means that he The Hon.. W. A. LANDERYOU (Doutta c~nno~ bring about legislation that will deal Galla Provlnce)-I have never been dis­ WIth dIsputes; and the absence oflegislation quieted by domination of numbers in the me~ns the absence of an effective power of pa~t, an~ wil.l not all~w myself to be dis­ actIon. qUIeted In thIS CommIttee either. It seems The only legislation that can be passed by to me that what Mr Bubb-and I under­ the Com11.l0nwealth is legislation relating to stand his personal conflict between what he the estabhshment of machinery for concili­ ~ecognizes to be reality and what is decided In the ~arty room-:-and the Liberal Party ation and arbitration. Therefore we have are asking the Parhament to do is to vote separate jurisdictions at the Common­ against the industrial reality of our time. If wealth and State level, and we have areas in we are to have an industrial relations Bill or which neither Government can act effec­ Act in this State, it ought to be so designed tively. as to maximize the opportunities for the It does ~eem to me that there is a very participants within the industrial relations good case Indeed for a reassessment of this system of this State to minimize disputa­ situ~tion, bearing in mind the possibility of tIon. a SIngle responsibility in the Common­ As I indicated by way of interjection to ~ealth Gov~rn~ent of the day, under a re­ the Leader of the Opposition when he was VIsed ConstItutIon, which would give the the Minister of Education in the former Commonwealth power to legislate or to Government, when his own approach to the !Dake other provision with respect to salar­ question of solving industrial disputes or Ies, wages and conditions for prevention and establishing an industrial relations frame­ resolution of disputes. If that happened, of work for education was being debated, one cour~e, there would need to be the widest should not preclude the consideration of possIble power to settle disputes whether these matters from those tribunals. Indeed by ~ay C?f negotiation, whether by way of conclhatIOn, whether by way of arbitration the opposite was the case. Whether Mr Hunt or whether by way of legislation as a last won Cabinet approval in respect of that resort. Until such changes occur however matter, I am not sure, but it seems to me we do need to consider the sorts' of power~ that it. is ~diculous to say to people, who that need to be exercised by State tribunals are paId faIrly handsomely in terms of the where they have jurisdiction. public sector to sit on the tribunals that their principal purpose is to solve di;putes It is in respect of that situation that Mr and, if the dispute is about employment or Bubb has made his proposals. We do not dis~issal of ind~v:id~als covered by that have the ideal situation where there is a partIcular ConcIhatIon and Arbitration 1174 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Industrial Relations (Amendment) Bill

Board, to then say to them, "You cannot the whole basis of the dispute before him determine or discuss the matter". That just and which will affect not one employer but seems to me to be an absurd situation. all employers in an industry? Even when Who would want the task of settling an the parties agree, as often they do, that industrial dispute that was based on dis­ agreement cannot be formally handled by missal or on the question of preferential the Conciliation and Arbitration Board. I employment if that person did not have that do not understand the reason behind that, right? As Mr Mier interjects and suggests, and I urge the Committee to support the quite correctly, the real practitioners who Government. are employed by the State Government in The Hon. B. W. MIER (Waverley Prov­ this area do address the question, regardless ince )-As a past practising trade union of­ of the absence of power. Therefore, the ficial, I endorse Mr Landeryou's comments. practical reality, in terms of administering, Both Mr Landeryou and I are familiar with adjudicating or chairing the Conciliation the complexities that arise on industrial and Arbitration Boards of this State is to matters. As Mr Landeryou correctly stated, have those chairpersons address the reality boards consider these questions when they of the problem. are resolving industrial disputes. The settle­ A member of this Chamber recently ap­ ment of industrial disputes is basically what proached me concerning employment and they were set up to achieve. It is the whole wanted me to use my influence to obtain concept of the establishment of boards. In the services privately of some such arbitra­ resolving industrial disputes, quite often tor on some such question, and that was to these matters are at the forefront. have a matter concerning preference of em­ I appeal to the Opposition and to the Nat­ ployment determined by a private arbitra­ ional Party to give further consideration to tor. this matter and not to be so adamant. It is The Committee is now being asked to in the best interests of all parties---em­ exclude from the Bill a provision that will ployer associations and trade unions. remove from the Act the formal authority The Hon. B. P. Dunn-What benefit is for those chairpersons to take part in those there to the employer? disputes formally and officially, and to make decisions. The Hon. B. W. MIER-There is no ar­ bitrary or mandatory obligation on any One cannot have an industrial relations board to insert any·such provisions in any system that is effective and efficient-it is such awards. Boards have the right and the certainly costly-unless it has the power to privilege to consider those matters in the address those matters that cause disputes. event of an industrial dispute occurring. No matter whether one wishes to bury one's That is all the Government asks. It is com­ head in the sand, the fact is that throughout mon sense. Obviously, Mr Bubb, who is a the State, almost daily, disputes on dis­ past practitioner in industrial relations, missal and employment arise. realizes this but, for some unknown reason, The Hon. Clive Bubb-It could be dealt he is not prepared to accept it. He knows with. We are talking of preference, not about that these questions are constantly before dismissal and employment. boards. The boards should have the oppor­ The Hon. W. A. LANDERYOU-Yes­ tunity of carefully and properly considering terday, an opportunity was given to all hon­ them and should not be locked out in the ourable members to address the question of way Mr Bubb suggests. avoiding many disputes that will occur in In the interests of industrial relations, in­ future in the hospitality industry. The Op­ dustrial peace and goodwill, I urge the op­ position backed away from it. It buried its position parties to reconsider this matter. It head in the sand, again. Again, it was wrong, is not as black as it has been painted. and it will be proved to be wrong in the The Hon. CLIVE BUBB (Ballarat Prov­ future. ince)-I did not wish to go over the argu­ How can one employ a person at a con­ ments again that I made during the second­ siderable sum of money and say that that reading debate. Mr Landeryou encapsu­ person's task is to conciliate and arbitrate, lated those arguments when he said that the yet tie his hands on a matter which may be matter may concern not only a single em- Industrial Relations (Amendment) Bill 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1175 ployer but also an entire industry. Mr Lan­ That is the rationale for and the reason deryou will recall that he returned to the why the Government is moving into this Chamber when I was speaking during the area. Mr Landeryou can shake his head, but second-reading debate, and he interjected it is in line with the Government's policy of that I was putting the common rule argu­ encouraging unionism. ment. I said that I was. The Hon. J. H. Kennan-So does the If the industry is in agreement to a closed Federal Act! shop or preference clause, I have no objec­ The Hon. CLIVE BUBB-The Federal tion, as I stated in the second-reading de­ Act is totally different, as I have already bate. Procedures are available to any group of employers and to any group of unions to explained. The Federal Act requires a defi­ join together and to have preference clauses nite choice on the part of the person bound to cover any single establishment or indus­ by such Federal conditions in industrial law try. That procedure has been working ade­ to opt into the system. The State system is quately during all the years it has existed. a common rule system whereby the very fact that one employs labour means that Mr Landeryou argues: Why should there one is bound by the system. not be a provision to allow those persons who have reached such an agreement to The Hon. J. H. Kennan-You are about have it enshrined in legislation? To return to move amendments in respect of the to the common rule application, if prefer­ award free group? ence clauses are inserted in State awards, The Hon. CLlVE BUBB-I am about to they apply to everyone in those industries move proposed amendments which will whether those persons agree or disagree. Mr protect the accrued rights of employees, Landeryou's wishes are in line with the whether they are award covered or not. Government's policy of encouraging com­ The Hon. J. H. Kennan-Y ou are saying pulsory unionism. That would be a satisfac­ everyone is covered! tory arrangement for the Government. Although Mr Landeryou may not person­ The Hon. CLIVE BUBB-They are. The ally hold that belief, it is the Government's Attorney-General can shake his head and policy to encourage compulsory unionism. smile but, as Mr Landeryou will bear me out, on long service leave and annual leave The Hon. W. A. Landeryou-I do not in Victoria, the common rule situation ap­ want compulsory unionism. plies. The Hon. CLIVE BUBB-I shall not en­ If the Attorney-General does not under­ ter into that argument. stand the law in that area, he should not The Hon. W. A. Landeryou-It is an im­ smile at me and laugh. Ifhe understood the portant argument. law, he would know why I intend to move The Hon. CLIVE BUBB-If the indus­ the proposed amendments. Mr Chairman, trial commission is allowed to insert pref­ I am being diverted from the clause and I erence clauses, further industrial disputes shall return to it. will be created on preference of employ­ I hope I have demonstrated clearly to the ment and dismissal which will be brought Committee that persons who are currently before the commission. This results from bound under the common rule provisions the nature of changes to legislation. The At­ of the State industrial system should have torney-General will recognize that often, their rights protected. I am speaking about when changes are made to legislation, a pat­ employers and employees who do not wish tern emerges ofcases coming forward to test to belong to a union and who do not wish what effect the changes have and how far to be bound by a clause that gives rise to they will extend. This happens in the indus­ preference in employment and dismissal trial arena, and it happens in almost every and preference to another person who, be­ jurisdiction. cause he or she is a member of the union­ Mr Landeryou is saying that compulsory not because the person is a good worker or unionism should extend to employees-40 a more efficient worker. The non-unionist per cent of the total work force in the State­ would be first cab off the rank in dismissals. who are covered by State awards and who I do not agree with that, and the Opposition are not members of unions. will not support it. 1176 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Industrial Relations (Amendment) Bill

The Committee divided on the clause (the A person may be the manager of a small Hon. K. I. M. Wright in the chair). company and that company is placed into Ayes 16 receivership. In an attempt to try to keep Noes 18 the business afloat, the manager may have worked and not taken his annual leave. The Majority against the clause 2 Patman case in New South Wales was con­ cerned with an employee who was required AYES to take annual leave within twelve months MrArnold MrMcArthur of its being due and he did not do so and Mrs Coxsedge MrMier lost the entitlement beyond twelve months. MrHenshaw MrMurphy MrsHogg MrSgro In a strict accounting sense, if a person MrKennan MrWhite accrues annual leave, any leave that he takes MrKennedy is deemed to be credited against the earlier MrKent Tellers: accrual of leave. One then calculates back­ Mr Landeryou Mr Pullen wards to determine how much leave is Mr Mackenzie MrSandon available to that person at the time of the NOES termination of his or her employment which MrsBaylor MrHunt is attributable to the period expressed in the MrBlock MrKnowles award, whether it be twelve or eighteen MrBubb MrLong months. Annual leave is currently able to Mr Chamberlain MrRadford be paid only for that period. MrConnard MrReid In the case of receivership, that portion MrCrozier MrWard MrDunn of annual leave is described as a preferential MrEvans Tellers: creditor and the remainder must rank with MrGuest MrGranter unsecured creditors. Often when compa­ MrHayward MrLawson nies are wound up, and such circumstances arise, employees are not paid anything ex­ PAIRS cept small amounts of money. Mr Butler Mr Birrell The intent of the amendments moved by MrsKirner MrHoughton me accords with the spirit of the Bill be­ MrWalker MrStorey cause the amendments seek to protect the Clause 6 rights to wages of persons who are em­ The Hon. CLIVE BUBB (Ballarat Prov­ ployed in a business. I include annual leave ince)-I move: in the term "wages". Clause 6, line 6, after "Part" insert "or any like Or­ This covers the point raised by the Attor­ der under any corresponding previous enactment". ney-General, by intetjection. Under section Clause 6, line 7, after "award" insert "or any con­ 59 of the Industrial Relations Act, any tract of employment to which section 59 applies". worker who is employed within a business, Clause 6, line 33, omit "registered agreement or even though he may have made a contract award" and insert "like Order, registered agreement, with the owners of that business to work for award or contract". a lesser rate than the award rate in terms of Clause 6, line 35, after "Party" insert "or a like Order his annual leave, cannot have a less favour­ under a corresponding previous enactment". able entitlement than is eligible for under Clause 6, line 35, after "award" insert "or a contract the Labour and Industry Act, as it was, or of employment to which section 59 applies". the Industrial Relations Act, as it is now. Clause 6, line 37, after "Order" insert "under this Under section 60 of the Industrial Rela­ Part". tions Act, employers are prohibited from Clause 6, line 37, after "award" insert "or such a contracting out of this arrangement. That contract". was the point I made to the Attorney-Gen­ Earlier this week I spoke to the Attomey­ eral when he interjected. My intention in General about the proposed amendments, moving the amendments was to protect the which are consequential amendments. In rights of employees not covered by an award relation to a person not covered by an award in the way that employees covered by an in Victoria, such as a managerial employee, award would be protected by the amend­ to whom annual leave is not paid in full, ments to the Industrial Relations Act. That this may arise in a series of circumstances. is the intention of my amendments. Public Holiday (150th Anniversary) Bill 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1177

The Hon. J. H. KENNAN (Attorney­ suitable day. Why pick 31 December? It is General)-The Government does not op­ most inappropriate. pose the amendments. Honourable members interjecting. The amendments were agreed to, and the The PRESIDENT-Order! I ask hon­ clause, as amended, was adopted, as was the ourable members to let us hear Mr Bubb remaining clause. without interjection. The Bill was reported to the House with The Hon. CLIVE BUBB-I shall ignore amendments, and passed through its re­ the interjections. Those persons who are re­ maining stages. quired to work on 31 December will not be able to celebrate the 150th anniversary of PUBLIC HOLIDAY (150th Victoria, and 80 per cent of persons em­ ANNIVERSARY) BILL ployed in the manufacturing industry will The debate (adjourned from October 30) already be on annual leave. Added to that on the motion of the Hon. E. H. Walker are State and Federal public servants, the (Minister for Planning and Environment) insurance industry and the commercial in­ for the second reading of this Bill was re­ dustry. sumed. It is wonderful that the Government is The Hon. CLIVE BUBB (Ballarat Prov­ providing free transport and entertainment. ince)-I do not know how to begin this One could argue in support of the holiday speech because the Government, as a polit­ that the "sickie" rate will rise on that day ical stunt leading up to the next election, because people will want to celebrate. That has promised a Roman holiday to the peo­ is not really the point. The point is that the ple of Victoria. I point out to Mr Sgro, who majority of Victorians who may like to at­ is interjecting, that the Roman emperors tend the celebrations will not be working were famous for giving the populace bread anyway. and circuses-they gave them a holiday. The Government has proposed a celebra­ Yesterday, it was stated that $500000 tion of Victoria's 150th anniversary on a would be allocated to put grass on the day when most people would not be work­ Bourke Street Mall. That shows the mental­ ing anyway. The Government has decided ity of the Government, which is trying to on a day when those persons who have to soften up the populace for the next election. work are precluded from attending the cele­ I would be surprised if the people of Vic­ brations because they may be required to toria cannot see through the Government! carry out maintenance work on a plant About 80 per cent of members of the work which has been shut down for the holiday force who are involved in the manufactur­ period or similar work. Those people will ing industry take their annual leave at have to be paid triple time for working on Christmas and the remainder are involved that day. For instance, in a paint shop which in providing essential services or necessary has been closed for twenty days for refur­ maintenance when industrial plants are shut bishing, the owner may require the employ­ down over the Christmas holiday period. It ees to work but then pay them a penalty is nonsense to provide a public holiday for rate on the day proposed by the Govern­ those people on 31 December because they ment to be a public holiday. will not be able to take that holiday. All the Government is doing is providing those The Hon. E. H. Walker-That is the same persons with an extra day which can be for any holiday. taken when they normally take their holi­ The Hon. CLIVE BUBB-I agree, but days, perhaps in the middle of the year. the Government has chosen 31 December I do not want the House to misunder­ purely for political reasons. The day pro­ stand what I am saying. I agree that the posed by the Government may not be taken 150th anniversary of Victoria is a day for as a public holiday by people who are re­ celebration, but perhaps 19 November could quired to work during that period so they have been chosen instead as the public hol­ will have it added to their annual leave and iday. That is ostensibly the day on which perhaps take that day at the end of January Edward Henty landed at Portland for the or whenever. The employers must foot the eleventh time. That may have been a more bill for the cost of the holiday. 1178 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Public Holiday (l50th Anniversary) Bill

The Hon. E. H. Walker-You are only cent are generally unemployed. The atti­ suggesting that the Government should tude of the Government is to impose the choose a different day. cost on Victorian industry at a time when it does not need these imposts; it is no wonder The Hon. CLIVE BUBB-I am not; I am people are not eager to invest in Victoria. trying to point out the reality-- The Government did not consult with in­ The PRESIDENT-Order! Mr Bubb dustry before deciding on the date of the would make it easier for all honourable public holiday. The Opposition does not members if he did not respond to interjec­ support the measure. tions. It would also be much easier if the The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western Leader ofthe Government did not interject. Province)-Not much can be said about the The Hon. CLIVE BUBB-The esti­ proposed legislation. As honourable mem­ mated cost for the public holiday is between bers gathered by Mr Bubb's speech, one $83 million and $117 million. Those were cannot canvass many issues. The Govern­ the figures suggested to me by various orga­ ment is adding another holiday to the num­ nizations-it would depend on which group erous public holidays already enjoyed by of employers one prefers to listen to. The Victorians. Everyone enjoys a holiday. Victorian Employers Federation estimated At present most workers in Victoria en­ the cost of the public holiday at $83 million, joy four weeks' annual leave, one day off a and the Victorian Chamber of Manufac­ month and public holidays. Everyone would tures estimated the cost at $117 million. like to have a holiday now and then and the That impost on Victorian industries is con­ Bill is seen as a popular move. With a State siderable. election approaching, the Government has An Honourable Member-There is no decided to try every trick in the book. The need to labour the point! Premier has spoken about the arts and lib­ The Hon. CLIVE BUBB-I will labour eralizing the liquor laws. The Premier will the point because the Minister refuses to be a leading figure in the sporting world accept what I am saying. The Minister re­ when he tries to emulate the Prime Minister fers to dates but I am not talking about dates. and attends the forthcoming Australia The public holiday is a tremendous idea, Games to be held in Melbourne. However, but Victorian industry will have to foot the the Government is doing all these wonder­ bill! The Government can decide to give ful things by using the taxpayers' money. At Victorians a holiday but it must also foot times the Minister for Planning and Envi­ the bill. The Opposition does not accept the ronment must be somewhat cynical. measure. It would be an expensive birthday The Hon. E. H. Walker-I have em­ present to employers and consumers who, ployed more people than you have. in the end, will foot the bill for the celebra­ The Hon. B. P. DUNN-I have no doubt tion. the Minister has done so, but that is beside The 150th anniversary of Victoria should the point. The Government is looking for be celebrated but the way the Government opportunities to enhance its image in the has chosen to do so is utterly deplorable. period leading up to the forthcoming State Victorian industry should not be forced to elections in the latter half of February next foot the bill; the metal trades industry is by year. What better stunt could the Govern­ no means on a sound footing, conditions ment pull than to give workers a holiday on have improved but the industry is still 31 December? The State election campaign shaky; the manufacturing industry gener­ will probably be in full swing by then and ally is in a poor state; and the retail industry the Premier will be electioneering during is .fluctuating. All those industries will be celebrations for Victoria's 150th anniver­ affected by the measure. sary. The timing of the electioneering will The Government has proposed the var­ be spot on, as the Government attempts to ious strategies for improving employment pull out all stops in a desperate effort to conditions in Victoria and providing job hang on to office. opportunities, yet it places this impost on The Government is losing its grip on the industry when it should be providing bene­ economic management of the State. Many fits for the unemployed. In Ballarat, 40 per people in the community believe the Gov­ cent of its youth are unemployed and 15 per ernment has been in office for far too long, Public Holiday (150th Anniversary) Bill 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1179 and they want a change. The Labor Party is The Hon. H. G. BAYLOR (Boronia in for a big shock at the next State elections. Province )-One wonders whether the Gov­ In moving around the community and talk­ ernment has really thought through the im­ ing to people, I have discovered that many plications that the Bill will have if it is people believe the Government has an in­ passed. I want to talk about one aspect of flated view of itself and that it is over-con­ the Bill which has not been covered, and fident. The Labor Party will perform worse that is the impact it will have on many peo­ than anticipated at the next State elections. ple who look to the Christmas-New Year Therefore, the Government has to try some period to do much of their shopping. way in which to lift its performance and As honourable members know, the retail offer the people all it can. industry has expressed grave concern at the The proposed holiday on 31 December implications of the Bill. During the Christ­ will cost someone money. It will not cost mas-New Year break there is very little time either the Minister for Planning and Envi­ in which shoppers can purchase the normal ronment or the Government any money, household goods. The shops will be closed but it will cost the taxpayer money. on Christmas Day and Boxing Day and will The Hon. G. A. Sgro-People should open again on Thursday, Friday and Satur­ have a holiday. day morning of Christmas week. However, if the proposed holiday is proceeded with, The Hon. B. P. DUNN-IfMr Sgro were the shops will not open again until after an employer and had to pay his employees New Year's Day, which is the following for an additional dafs holiday on top of all Wednesday. That will mean there will be a the holidays they already have, he would be period of at least four and a half days during jumping up and down. It is all very well for which people will be unable to shop for fresh the Minister for Planning and EnVironment food. to talk about the need for an extra holiday I have been told by people in the food and to claim that public servants can have retailing industry that during the last Easter an extra holiday, but the small business op­ break when shops were closed from Good erators and manufacturing industries will Friday through to the following Tuesday, have to foot the bill if this holiday is pro­ there were community demands for food ceeded with. shops to open on the Saturday morning fol­ This action by the Government typifies lowing Good Friday. Statistics have high­ its attitude towards employers, whom it does lighted the strong demand for food shops to not consider. Many Government members open on the Saturday morning following believe employers are an unnecessary evil, Good Friday to allow people to replenish yet it is the employers who generate jobs. their stocks of fresh food. The Government One day the Government and trade unions has not considered the inconvenience such will wake up to the fact that the future of a proposed holiday will cause to the con­ Victoria is linked directly to the future of sumer. employers who provide jobs. As Mr Bubb It appears that the Government has been said, the proposed holiday will cost these carried away with the concept of having an small, medium and large employers some­ annive~ party, whatever that may mean. where between $83 and $117 million. I am afraid its idea of a party does not The National Party does not support the coincide with my idea ofa party. Each per­ Bill. Although it has to be admitted there is son has his or her own ideas of what consti­ support for it in the community, the pro­ tutes a good party. posed holiday is not necessary. I can under­ The Government has not really consid­ stand people wanting to have a holiday. The ered the needs of consumers. The Govern­ National Party hopes the 150th anniversary ment is seeking to deprive people of the celebrations are successful, but they can be opportunity of shopping for fresh food. successful without having an additional The Hon. W. A. Landeryou-Mr Bubb public holiday. said everyone will be on holiday. For the reasons outlined by Mr Bubb, the The Hon. H. G. BA YLOR-That is cor­ National Party will vote against the Bill on rect. It is obvious that Mr Landeryou has the basis that it is unnecessary, especially not thought about the ramifications of the during the Christmas period. Bill. During the Christmas-New Year break 1180 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Public Holiday (150th Anniversary) Bill many people are on holiday-it is esti­ ~igo. It grew only because it gave good serv­ mated that 80 per cent of the work force is Ice. That important service is offered in the on holiday. It is a prime time for families to post-Christmas period. do their shopping. The Government is being totally incon­ The Hon. W. A. Landeryou-On New siderate to the shopping sector of the com­ Year's eve? munity, which comprises just about T~e Hon. H. G. BA YLOR-No, after the everyone. It is an inconsiderate, ill-consid­ Chnstmas break when the stores hold their ered measure. It is a gimmick that will not annual sales. Many people wait for that time do anythin~ for the Government. In answer at which to do their shopping. It is a mar­ !o i!lterjectlons by Government members, I vellous time because there are so many bar­ Indicate that the Opposition's credibility is gains in the shops. improving day by day. I know that the Op­ The Hon. E. H. Walker-They are all on position is shoring up support in Warran­ holiday. dyte day by day. On behalf of the shoppers and consumers of this State, I protest . The ~on: H. G. BA YLOR-Exactly, but strongly at the Government using this gim­ If the BIll IS passed the shops will not be mick to deprive them of a convenient time allowed to open. If the Bill is passed it will to do not only fresh food shopping, but also haye ~ detrimental. effe~t on the economy. household shopping at a time when families It IS dIfficult to ratIonalIze the actions of a can shop together. It is a marvellous oppor­ Government which claims it is getting the tunity and may be the only opportunity in State moving and yet wishes to create an­ the year for families to come together to other public holiday. The Premier has tried shop. hard to get his message across, although he never appears to be able to engender much The Hon. W. A. Landeryou-What about enthusiasm on his message that the Gov­ members of families who work in shops? ernment is doing well, that everybody is The Hon. H. G. BAYLOR-They re­ happy and the State is on the move. ceive their rostered holidays anyway. They are not deprived in any way. Shop proprie­ It does not gel and it does not come across tors give consideration to family situations as a reality. It is a sham for the Premier to in the rostering of leave for holidays. The say that he has the State moving again when Government is depriving shoppers of this ~e is depriving the State of one day's trad­ chance for the flimsy and cynical reason that In~,. whl.ch represents approximately $40 mIllIon In turnover. The economy of this cannot be substantiated by economic con­ State depends on money moving around. siderations or convenience for consumers. Many people are on holidays at that time of I join my colleagues on the Opposition side the year anyway. A holiday on that day will of the House in strongly opposing the pro­ only deprive a major economic section of posed legislation. this State of the prime time of post-Christ­ The Hon. L. A. McARTHUR (Nuna­ mas trading. If Government members were wading Province)-The Public Holiday retailers, they would not be taking this mat­ (15Oth Anniversary) Bill is the "fun day" ter so lightly. Bill, the "holiday" Bill or the "celebration" It is well known that it is a period of high Bill. Some people are definitely concerned sales, which matches the pre-Christmas rush about anything that constitutes enjoyment, period when people do their shopping. It is happiness or celebration. I suggest that they a time when retailers clear out excess stock, are the ~~anti-Victorian celebration group". summer goods and so forth. Another con­ The celebration will enable people to look side!ation is that many people exchange back on the achievements of Victoria in the Chnstmas presents that they do not like. past 150 years. Many big retailers in the city say that it is a The Hon. N. B. Reid-What sort of huge service they give to people. They do clothes do we have to wear? not make anything out of it, but they do it The Hon. L. A. McARTHUR-I think because they are a service industry. That is dungarees would be appropriate. We should something Government members probably remember the early pioneers, such as the do not understand. Successful business peo­ Dents who came ashore with the Hentys. I ple are people who give good service. The think they would like to have a fun day. Myer group started as a small store in Ben- Honourable members have made the point Public Holiday (150th Anniversary) Bill 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1181 that shoppers will lose one day. I have spo­ The Hon. H. R. W ARD-The remarks ken to people about this day. I will admit ought to be directed to where they most that it is not the first historical evidence of hurt. From day one until today I have been this problem. I have heard that once upon a part of the operation. The Premier may be time in Victoria, it took four to five weeks a member of the Labor Party, but he is as by bullock dray to shop. Pioneers in Mr much my Premier as he is anyone else's. Dunn's part of the world shopped in that That is what one would expect within the way. They had to travel to shops. State. It is one of the great tragedies of the I realize that it is inconvenient for shop­ 150th anniversary celebrations that the an­ pers not to be able to go to sales on that day. niversary committee has not received any The point has been made that the Govern­ help. It has battled and been determined to ment and the people of Victoria should wipe do something about putting on the anniver­ aside the celebrations of the achievement of sary celebrations. 150 years and consider the shoppers and the Today I intend to place on the Hansard economics of the proposition. It is said that record the good work achieved by the mem­ we should tell the people who have gone bers of the committee. This has not been before us in the past 150 years that we could done by the Government whereas it should not afford to set aside one day to celebrate have been done. It is a shame that the Gov­ their contributions to the State. We may as ernment did not do so. The choice of New well give a large slice back to the Aborigines Year's eve as the date for the public holiday because, if we cannot afford to set aside one to commemorate the anniversary celebra­ day after 150 years, we have not made good tions has no relevance to this State. What use of the land. I dismiss the shopping historical relevance does that date have? argument and support the Bill. Absolutely none! If the date had some spe­ The Hon. H. R. WARD (South Eastern cial significance, why is it not mentioned in Province)-I had decided not to speak on the second-reading speech which details the this Bill, but when I heard the utter non­ aims and objectives of the anniversary? I sense ofMr MacArthur-- shall examine those aims and objectives. The Hon. L. A. McARTHUR (Nuna­ The second-reading speech stated that it wading Province )-On a point of order, I aimed, inter alia: reject that it was utter nonsense. Some pearls to develop worth-while and significant projects which of wisdom were expressed. will build on Victoria's achievements and growth. The PRESIDENT-Order! There is no point of order. to encourage Victorians to examine all aspects oftheir The Hon. H. R. WARD (South Eastern community in order to develop a common purpose Province)-Perhaps those pearls of wisdom and a better future of their State. will be recorded in H ansard. What concerns The notes do not contain any specifics. What me about the selection of the date chosen is ideas? What projects? What commerce? that it was nothing more than a political Why did the Government not examine ploy to choose 31 December. It could have some other dates with respect to the choos­ been any other date, such as 11 November. ing of a public holiday to commemorate the Members of the Government, with the 150th anniversary of the State? A number exception of the Minister for the Arts, have of other dates have tremendous significance not done a damn thing about Victoria's for this State and they would have been 150th anniversary celebrations. They have much more appropriate. ignored it. What about 25 April? That is the date The Hon. E. H. Walker-The planning that should be dear to the hearts of this department has done one hell of a lot! socialist Government. The Hon. H. R. W ARD-What planning The Hon. E. H. Walker-Who says it is department? not? The Hon. E. H. Walker-My planning The Hon. H. R. WARD-I do not think department! it has crossed the mind of the Government. The PRESIDENT-Order! Mr Ward The Hon. E. H. Walker-It is celebrated should address his remarks to the Chair. every year! 1182 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Public Holiday (150th Anniversary) Bill The Hon. H. R. WARD-Why? The band. Therefore, honourable members may Minister cannot tell me. realize that there are a number of reasons The Hon. E. H. Walker-Of course, I why 11 November could have been selected can. It is Anzac Day. as the date on which to have a public holi­ The Hon. H. R. WARD-Of course, that day commemorating Victoria's 150th anni­ day is celebrated! What about its relevance versary. to the Labor movement? The Minister ob­ The Hon. W. A. Landeryou-Have you viously does not know. On 25 April 1856 run out of dates now? the Eight Hours' Labour League was formed The Hon. H. R. W ARD-I suppose one in Melbourne. The Minister for Planning could find a date to commemorate Mr Lan­ and Environment did not know that be­ deryou but he has difficulty counting up to cause he does not represent the Labor eleven! I am endeavouring to find a reason movement! why 31 December was chosen as the day for The PRESIDENT-Order! I advise Mr a public holiday, other than for political Ward that he should direct his remarks to reasons. the Chair rather than across the Chamber The date 7 November could have been to the Minister for Planning and Environ­ selected because it was a significant sporting ment. He should make his contribution to day. In 1861 "Archer" won the first Mel­ the Chair and to all honourable members in bourne Cup and the first English cricket the Chamber. team arrived in Australia. Furthermore, 8 The Hon. H. R. WARD-The Leader of January could have been selected as the date. the Government is a torment! The date 25 I have undertaken a personal battle to have April 1856 is a significant day in the history th~ birthday of John Curtin recognized in of Australia. Anzac Day is also a significant t~s State .. 1 supp?se the reason I am having day in the history of the nation. Why was dIfficulty In haVIng the date recognized is that date not chosen as the public holiday that John Curtin was a bit right wing and to commemorate the anniversary celebra­ no one wanted to have anything to do with tions? him! He was the son of a policeman and the Another date that could have been con­ Prime Minister of Australia in one of the sidered is 11 November. Members of the most difficult periods in the development of Labor Party will remember that date for this nation. other reasons rather than for its real signifi­ The Hon. E. H. Walker-Was that when cance. you used to vote Labor? The Hon. R. A. Mackenzie-It was the The Hon. H. R. W ARD-I never had day democracy died. enough money but I was never stupid The Hon. H. R. WARD-On 11 Novem­ enough to do that. John Curtin was a for­ ber 1826 the first settlement was made at mer Prime Minister of Australia and those Corinella. A further significant event took people who believe in democracy should be place on 11 November: On that day in 1850 prepared to honour famous Pnme Minis­ the Port Phillip District gained independ­ ters, irrespective of their political affilia­ ence from New South Wales with the pass­ tions. ing of Westminster's "Separation Bill" and The date 29 May could have been se­ power was given to the Lieutenant-Gover­ lected as the day for the public holiday be­ nor to assume office in Victoria. cause it commemorates the beginning of the A further significant historical event oc­ development of land scandals. After all, curred on 11 November. Australians have a John Batman, without any training as a real tendency to make national heroes out of estate agent, manafed to acquire 600 000 crooks and thieves and 11 November was acres for 20 pairs 0 blankets and 30 toma­ the day on which·Ned Kelly was hanged. hawks.·That was not a bad sort ofa deal! The first woman member of Parliament was I could continue and provide the House elected on 11 November 1933 although, un­ with a number of other significant dates and der the current law, I suppose one would times that could have been selected to com­ have to say that she was a person or an "it"! memorate the 150th anniversary celebra­ On 11 November 1933 Lady Millie Peacock tions. was elected to the Legislative Assembly seat The other night it was quietly mentioned of Allandale following the death of her hus- that the date of 4 August could have been Public Holiday (150th Anniversary) Bill 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1183 selected because on that day in 1957 John sons who also ought to be recognized for the Cain, Senior died. Two Victorian Pre­ work they have done, people who are dedi­ miers-the late John Cain and Sir Henry cated, particularly to the service of the Min­ Bolte, who so far as I am aware had no great ister. I refer to Paul Clarkson, Bernie appreciation of the arts-managed to bring Stewart, Donna Greaves, Andrew Porter about the establishment of the National and Andrew Kay. Gallery of Victoria and the Victoria Arts Throughout Victoria some magnificent Centre. One Premier brought about the ac­ achievements will result from the work of quisition of the land and the other Premier people in local areas to ensure that Vic­ set into train the necessary construction. toria's 150th anniversary is a success. Those On 17 August 1889 the first exhibition of people have worked against tremendous major Victorian artists was held. On 20 Au­ odds. Within the next year, because this year gust 1968 the National Gallery of Victoria is of political significance, I know that I will was opened, and on 20 August 1860 Burke see members of the Labor Party swanning and Wills set off on their ill-fated tour. Hon­ around at the various functions that will ourable members by now will appreciate take place. that there are a number of significant dates The Hon. E. H. Walker-Would you in Victorian history that would have been prefer we stayed away? an appropriate choice as a day on which to celebrate Victoria's 150th anniversary. The The Hon. H. R. WARD-At least that Government could have chosen a date in would not be hypocritical. I would like December-the birthday of Bob Hawke and members of the Government to remember me! That would have been a good quinella! in their speeches the work that was done by The choice of 31 December illustrates the others prior to their turning up to official Government's hypocrisy. All the state­ openings, and to mention the work that has ments the Government has made about the been done by voluntary committees and celebrations cut across what it should have others who have done so much to make this said about the services provided by the anniversary a success. many people who have worked behind the I ask the Minister why New Year's eve scenes to make those celebrations success­ was selected as the public holiday. I suspect ful. The pity of it is that people will see New that it was chosen simply because the Min­ Year's eve as a great day for a celebration ister wanted to have a party and declared without the recognition of services prov­ that to be a good day to celebrate. ided by many Victorians. The Hon. E. H. Walker-Give us a dif­ I place on record recognition of the work ferent date. that was done initially by Sir John Holland The Hon. H. R. W ARD-I shall not and Mr John Birrell, and particularly by the move an amendment; I shall vote against secretary, Miss Lyn Anderson, in the estab­ the measure. lishment of the initial framework of the 150th anniversary committee. They were The Hon. M. J. Arnold-You will be on and are supported in that work by Mr Ross holidays. What will you be doing? Preen and Mr Bill Dunne, two keen public The Hon. H. R. W ARD-I shall not be servants. Subsequently, Mr Ranald Mc­ on holidays. I suggest that consideration Donald and Dr Michael Searby took over should have been given to the question. the reins on the resignation of Sir John Hol­ Once again, the decision reflects the advice land. I also add the names of Fiona Wal­ that has been handed out by the Premier's lace, Diana Pappas, Helen Wells, Christine advisers, who know nothing of what goes Whorlow, Di Bucldey and Allan Moore who on but who are trying to push him into a have done tremendous work throughout the corner as a result of some socialist left ac­ State. Those people will not have a holiday cord, without any consideration for what at that time of year. Victorians want or of how the day to com­ I also mention the work of the Minister memorate this State's 150th anniversary for the Arts who has-unusually, when should be selected. compared with other members of the Gov­ If 17 November had been selected, as was ernment-contributed so much towards this suggested, perhaps we could have had a occasion. He has within his staff some per- Victoria Day. A great deal of thought should 1184 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Public Holiday (l50thAnniversary) Bill have been given to the selection of a day to The Hon. G. P. CONNARD (Higin­ be called Victoria Day, a day of which all botham Province)-Perhaps I can assist Mr Victorians could be proud. I suggest that 11 Ward and the Government by giving one November is a significant day and could explanation of why this step has been taken. well have been the day selected, but no con­ The simple fact is that some weeks ago the sideration was given to that because the appropriate Minister gazetted 24 and 31 people concerned would not know about December as Public Service holidays. That that, even though I should have thought was done under pressure from the Victorian that most people would know the signifi­ Public Service Association. Now, the Gov­ cance of that day. ernment has bowed to pressure from other The day selected, 31 December, has no unions and agreed to this public holiday. It significance to the objectives that are out­ is a classic example ofleapfrogging and it is lined. The first of those objectives is em­ in fact a farce and it will be an expensive ployment opportunities. What employment exercise for this State. opportunities will be underscored by that Honourable members know of my inter­ date? What opportunities are given for Vic­ est in public hospitals. The service prov­ torians to learn on 31 December? What as­ ided in those hospitals will not be' any pects of the community will people examine different on 24 and 31 December. However, on that day? Perhaps they may go and see because these days are gazetted public holi­ the Cooks' cottage. I doubt that Captain days, the two institutions with which I am Cook ever lived there, but that is irrelevant. associated will be required to pay more than Victoria has adopted an almost English tra­ $100000 in extra wages on that day. That dition by putting the cottage in the Fitzroy demonstrates the Government's economic Gardens and saying that Captain Cook lived irresponsibility and how the Government is there. Perhaps he went past it one day in attempting to place further economic strain the field of Middleborough. on the private sector. Members of the Government should talk Mr Ward has rightly indicated that there about tradition. The only tradition that will are suitable days for the celebration of Vic­ be established by celebrating Victoria's toria's 150th anniversary, but 31 December 150th anniversary on that day will be the is not one of them. It will become immersed tradition of the long week-end or the re­ in the normal euphoria of Christmas and stricted trading hours tradition. Those are will mean nothing more than that to the the only matters that will have significance people of this State. I am totally opposed to on that day. The Minister has failed to pro­ a public holiday being granted on that day. vide something significant for Victoria, and It was gazetted asa result of union pressure that is regrettable. When the flags are raised and nothing else. and the cheering begins on 17 November, I The Hon. W. A. LANDERYOU (Doutta hope the Minister will remember that many Galla Province)-Honourable members people worked hard towards these celebra­ have witnessed an extraordinary perform­ tions, and I hope the year will be a success. ance this afternoon from the Liberal Party. I know many members of the Government Mr Bubb has complained that the members will take credit for it. When they are taking he once represented cannot afford the prop­ that credit, I hope they will mention in their osition that the Government has put. We speeches the volunteers who have worked also heard from Mrs Baylor who is gener­ so hard to make the celebrations a success. ally opposed to all sorts of celebrations and The volunteers are the people who count, parties. who believe in Victoria and who are proud The Hon. H. G. BAYLOR(Boronia of this State. They have done much to adorn Province)-On a point of order, Mr Presi­ this State by these tributes to the past. dent, I did not say that I was opposed to all I deeply regret the selection of 31 Decem­ celebrations, and I find Mr Landeryou's re­ ber as a public holiday. One could say that mark offensive. I ask him to withdraw it. it is the day before Australia decided to re­ The PRESIDENT-Order! There is no move Aborigines from the voters' roll or point of order. In think Mr Landeryou's ex­ not even to include them in the count of the planation has cleared up any doubt on the numbers of people who live in this nation. matter. Public Holiday (150th Anniversary) Bill 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1185

The Hon. W. A. LANDERYOU (Doutta sticking-plaster return trip, and inconven­ Galla Province)-I shall have to read Han­ ient to employers in terms of being able to sard to clear up any doubt, because I gained balance their budgets at the end of the year, the distinct impression that the Opposition, and ifit is inconvenient in terms of being in in picking up the point, seemed to think it the middle of the traditional holiday sea­ was an artificial grass party. The indication son, I would ask members of the Opposi­ clearly given by Mrs Baylor was that she tion to select another date. was concerned to preserve the time prov­ I thought that is what Mr Ward was about ided in the Bill as a holiday for the benefit to do. Instead of that, he took the House of shoppers to return their unwanted through important dates in the history and Christmas gifts. In other words, her Leader people of this State. He limited his know­ in another place can take back all the sticky ledge to an examination of the dates he ob­ tape that is given to him at Christmas that tained from the Library but did not tell us he does not need. his preference, apart from an aside that, be­ Mr Ward took the House through an ex­ cause the Prime Minister's birthday hap­ traordinary list of important dates, but he pens to be his own, that would be suitable. missed out many other significant dates. That is the seriousness with which he has However, no suggestion came from him as approached this debate. to the precise date on which the celebra­ The Liberal Party has shown itself to be tions should be held. He lectured the Gov­ mean, miserable and narrow minded. If we ernment on being incorrect in its selection were really serious about joining together to of a date but he did not put forward an commemorate the foundation of this State alternative suggestion of his own, apart from 150 years ago, surely it could be done in a a long list and, when challenged to nomi­ non-political way. It has been left to the nate a date, he said he would vote against troglodytes in this Chamber to come for­ the Bill altogether. ward and say it will cost something. Every Mr Connard rubbed salt into the wound significant reform in the history of this State when he got up to correct all the points that has cost something. Mr Ward made, not to support him. The Hon. B. A. Chamberlain-Yes, $8 The Hon. G. P. Connard-Do you agree million. with what I said? The Hon. W. A. LANDERYOU-Mr The Hon. W. A. LANDERYOU (Doutta Chamberlain is one of the few people I Galla Province)-I shall have to read Han­ would not put into the troglodyte category. sard to clear up any doubt, because I gained I am surprised he made that sort of com­ the distinct impression that the Opposition, ment because, if it were just a question of in picking up the point, seemed to think it destroying the proposition of cost, he would was an artificial grass party. The indication have at least put that argument. That is not clearly given by Mrs Baylor was that she what Mr Bubb is saying. He is not certain was concerned to preserve the time pro­ of the total sum involved, but says that his vided in the Bill as a holiday for the benefit party does not want to acknowledge the im­ of shoppers to return their unwanted portant history of this State. It has some­ Christmas gifts. In other words, her Leader thing to do with a queer concept of what is in another place can take back all the sticky volunteerism. The volunteers of this State tape that is given to him at Christmas that have made a significant contribution. So he does not need. have the wage and salary earners. immoral about the proposition of a Gov­ It is possible the Government did not pick ernment, charged with the responsibility of the right date, but it is prepared to argue drawing everyone's attention to the State's that. I thought Mr Ward would have come 150th birthday, saying that it will be cele­ up with a sensible, well thought out propo­ brated by a holiday. States that are proud of sition instead of playing the clown. The their history do not even countenance on Government is not pressured from the trade objection, but because people on the Oppo­ union movement, but reacting from a gen­ sition side of the Chamber are people of uine desire to publicize the importance of yesteryear, it is opposed. this State's 150th birthday. Those of us who The day proposed is 31 December and if are proud to be Victorians and proud to be it is inconvenient for Mr Kennett and his members of this Parliament should share 1186 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Public Holiday (1S0th Anniversary) Bill that pride with the rest of the community. eant, no commemoration; nothing con­ This was an opportunity to do so. cerned with the 150th celebration Ifthe date were so inconvenient, Mr Ward whatsoever. The significance of that is ob­ should not have taken us through his lim­ vious. What really occurred was that the ited knowledge of the history ofthis State. Government noted the fact that 1 January He should have nominated the date he felt fell on a Tuesday and decided it would be his party could support and moved it in nice to help employees get an eleven-day Committee as an amendment and voted break, from 22 December to Tuesday 1 J an­ with the Government on the second read­ uary inclusive, and, in some cases, an extra ing of the Bill. Instead of that, the House is day on top of that for the loss of one day or, treated to a sadjourney through some of the if they were already on holiday, they could personal views of individual members of have an extra holiday added to their annual the Liberal Party, ending up with Mr Con­ nard who could not resist the temptation to leave. It was nothing to do with Victoria's have a great old trade union bash. Every lSOth anniversary. The only thing it has to time some suggestion is put forward by this do with is the creation of an extra day's Government to benefit the people of this leave paid for in the longer term by the peo­ State, it is regarded as being a socialist plot ple of Victoria. When a decision was made or some other section of the trade union to grant that extra holiday, an excuse was movement trying to stand over the Pre­ sought to justify it. It was called the IS0th mier. Mr Ward says that it is not the Pre­ anniversary holiday, but that is not the rea­ mier's fault because the Premier is being son; that is the excuse, and this Bill is noth­ dictated to by his socialist advisers. Mr ing but a cheap gimmick. Connard then gets up to correct him and The House divided on the motion (the says it is not that; it is the trade union Hon. F. S. Grimwade in the chair). movement. Ayes 18 I believe that sort of argument is the rea­ Noes .. 20 son why the once great Liberal Party is no longer relevant in the political life of this Majority against the motion 2 country. The Hon. A. J. HUNT (South Eastern AYES Province )-Several weeks ago, honourable Mrs Coxsedge MrMcArthur members received copies of Victoria's ISOth MrsDixon MrMier Anniversary Interim Programme of Events MrHenshaw MrMurphy prepared by the board appointed by the MrsHogg MrPullen Government for our sesquicentenary. MrKennan MrSgro I should like to take honourable members MrKennedy MrWhite MrKent through the events for 31 December this MrsKirner Tellers: year. They appear under a number of titles. Mr Landeryou MrArnold Under "Regional Highlights" one finds: The Mr Mackenzie MrSandon Stanhope New Year's eve mardi gras; the Nathalia New Year's eve carnival; the Ker­ NOES ang New Year's eve carnival; and the MrBlock MrLawson Mooroopna Rodeo Kiwanis mardi gras. MrBubb MrLong Under the title of "Sporting Events" there Mr Chamberlain MrRadford is nothing. Under "Entertainments and Ex­ MrConnard MrReid hibitions" there is nothing. Under the head­ MrDunn MrStorey ing of "Conferences, conventions and MrEvans MrWard seminars" there is nothing. Under "General MrGranter MrWright Activities" is the entry, "New Year's eve". MrGuest The only significance of that day remains MrHayward Tellers: that it is New Year's eve. It has no signifi­ MrHunt MrBaylor cance for Victoria as a whole other than the MrKnowles Mr Birrell fact that it is New Year's eve. PAIRS The board planning the celebrations saw MrButler MrHoughton no reason for any special activity, no pag- MrWalker MrCrozier National Parks (Further Amendment) Bill 1 November 1984 " COUNCIL 1187

NATIONAL PARKS (FURTHER In accordance with the Land Conserva­ AMENDMENT) BILL tion Council's recommendations, allow­ ance is made for the continuation of the The debate (adjourned from October 30) practice of extracting timbers for· poles, on the motion of the Hon. R. A. Mackenzie fencing materials and for agriculture. In ad­ (Minister for Conservation, Forests and dition, an archery club operates in the area Lands) for the second reading of this Bill and this sport will be allowed to continue was resumed. there. Some procedural amendments in­ The Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Ballarat cluded in the Bill will allow the Director of Province)-The Bill has four aspects. Firstly National Parks to grant permits for the it establishes two new national parks or operation of the archery club in that area. brings two areas under the National Parks As I have indicated, it is a significant area Act. The first park is the Langwarrin Flora that has potential and now that the Nat­ and Fauna Reserve of 214 hectares which is ional Parks Service is establishing an office situated on the Mornington Peninsula. The in the Benalla area, it will be able to be well area was a military reserve and was handed managed. The Opposition supports that over by the State at Federation into the con­ aspect. trol of the Federal Government. The Bill allows roadworks to be author­ However, the land has not been used for ized in the Otway National Park and the that purpose and it was purchased by the Chiltern State Park. This will facilitate the State Government in 1982 for $330 000. construction of the Great Ocean Road It never ceases to amaze me that land, through the Otway National Park and the which was handed over to the Common­ Hume Freeway from Chiltern to Bama­ wealth on Federation by a State at cost, wartha. These roadworks will be authorized when it is no longer required by the Federal under stringent conditions, which will en­ Government, has to be repurchased by that sure that the management of the national State. This is .another example of that situa­ parks is not unduly disadvantaged while that tion. However, the Commonwealth Gov­ construction takes place. ernment, as part of the agreement to sell the Further, the Bill increases, in a small way, land to the State, insisted on its being man­ four further parks: The Brisbane Ranges and aged under the National Parks Act. the Steiglitz Park through land that has been In my view, it would have been the State's purchased or gifted bein~ included in those intention to follow that course, and I do not parks; Cape Schanck NatIonal Park will take understand why the Federal Government in 15 hectares from Bass Park and that pro­ insisted on that clause in the contract. posal has been supported by the manage­ The area is a significant nature reserve ment body of the Bass Park, and the and supports 45 per cent of the indigenous Kooyoora State Park has been increased in plant species found on the Mornington size by the addition of a small area of Crown Peninsula, and more than half of the native land. There has also been an excision of a mammal species known to that area are in road alignment that was incorrectly in­ that reserve. There has been enormous as­ cluded when that park was established. sistance from local conservation groups in The Bill effects changes to the principal managing the area and the Opposition sup­ Act to improve administration. It allows ports the proposal for the land to come areas that are being leased or purchased to under the National Parks Act. be administered under the Act. A practice . The second park to be established under has developed where a number of landown­ this Bill is the Reef Hills Park covering 2000 ers, who are interested in the national parks hectares south of Benalla. The Land Con­ concept, have agreed to their areas being servation Council recommended that this leased by the Government. The Act, as it area come under the National Parks Act. It currently stands, precludes the operation of is a significant area covering the original the National Parks Act over that area until vegetation of the northern plains; it has a such time as the purchase has been finalized diverse range of wildflowers and native and brought into the operation of the Act. wildlife, and being so close to Benalla, it has In addition, when a deposit has been significant potential for use as a recreation paid-this works to the benefit of the State area. where it purchases, on a contract, a specific 1188 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 National Parks (Further Amendment) Bill area with payment being made over a num­ That concern certainly remains and is ber of years-the amendment will allow the heightened, to a large degree, when the areas area to be managed under the Nat­ to be declared as national parks are substan­ ional Parks Act. The Bill changes the pro­ tial. Already 9 per cent or 10 per cent of the cedure for fixing fees and allowances for the total land area of Victoria is included in National Parks Advisory Council. This will declared national parks. It is the view of the now be done by Order in Council rather National Party that that is inappropriate. than by statutory rule. That is a sensible The National Party believes the desi~nation improvement. It allows for the erection of of "national park" should be a speclfic and entrance stations, the collection of fees, special classification and one which refers sign posting on roads terminating in the nat­ to an area that cannot be reasonably pro­ ional park. There is some concern about the tected by any other means. It should be an scope of the clause covering those matters, area of special significance with special but I shall raise that during the Committee qualities either of flora, fauna or some other stage of the Bill. aesthetic value. The Hon. M. A. Birrell-Which national The Bill renames the Office of Chairman parks would you declassify? of the National Parks Advisory Council to that of convenor. In my view that is abso­ The Hon. D. M. EV ANS-The National Party would term a number of national lute nonsense. Everyone understands that parks as multiple use parks as that would be the chairman means the presiding officer, a more appropriate and reasonable classifi­ but, because we have been caught up in a cation. Many people believe certain activi­ discussion about sexism, that word has to ties are not appropriate to be undertaken in be changed and the Government uses the a national park. The National Party is not Bill to give effect to it. suggesting that people should go into na­ There is some concern about clause 17 in tional parks and not look after the areas and terms of designating roads which can be destroy the flora, fauna or scenery. How­ treated as though they are part of a park. ever, the National Party recognizes that if There is further concern that the need for a there is to be a special classification it should permit for firearms will be extended not only be more specific in its requirements. to apply within national parks, with which The classification of "national park" has the Opposition agrees, but also to some been far too watered down to be applied to roads simply because they travel alongside too large an area. There needs to be gradu­ or through a national park. This is a matter ation of parks. That would fit in with the which the Opposition will be pursuing in current management procedures within the the Committee stage. Overall, the Opposi­ existing national parks but would be a far tion supports the Bill and trusts it will have more reasonable and responsible means of a speedy passage. delineation. The Hon. D. M. EV ANS (North Western I make those comments because they will Province)-The National Party has exam­ be a part of the National Party policy for ined the proposed legislation and, although the next State election. National parks are it generally supports the provisions of the for the entire community and the National Bill, it is reasonable to make some com­ Party believes the public land ofVictoria is ments at this stage. The House will recall very much for the entire community. It that as late as yesterday I questioned the forms an important part of our recreational, Minister on the ability of the National Parks aesthetic and business life. Service to provide sufficient services within As late as 5 September this year, I dealt the existing national parks, constrained as with the. matter of grazing and timber on it is by budgetary considerations, to provide public land in Victoria. I quoted many au­ for proper management and full public ac­ thorities and a number of submissions made cess to those parks. I expressed my concern to the Ferguson committee of inquiry, in­ about the lack of money for proper super­ cluding a major submission from the Vic­ vision, which may well mean there are some torian Trades Hall Council. restrictions, both of access and on some ac­ The issue of national parks is important tivities within the park area, so far as the and I hope I have made the point that the general public is concerned. National Party believes there should be a National Parks (Further Amendment) Bill 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1189 special classification. That is particularly Clause 16 provides that the director may relevant to the Bill because the measure in­ authorize use of guns and other weapons in creases the number and areas of national parks. I am interested in the term "other parks in Victoria. The increases in area of weapons" as it has not been spelt out what existing parks is relatively small, ranging that phrase exactly means. However, I as­ between 20 and 70 hectares. Two new parks sume it refers to devices such as bows and are to be created-the Reef Hills Park near arrows, slings, and perhaps blowpipes for Benalla which has an area of 2040 hectares, those with a supply of curare. Although i~ and the Langwarrin Flora and Fauna Re­ may sound humorous, many people have a serve, which has an area of 214 hectares. keen interest in the sport of blow hunting. They are suitable and reasonable areas to be A number of blow hunting clubs operate in classified as national parks. However, par­ the province I represent and it appears they ticularly in the case of the Reef Hills Park are catered for under the provisions con­ at Benalla, provision is made in the sched­ tained in the Bill. ule attached to the Bill for certain activities The Bill provides for the erection and to continue. The activities include provi­ maintenance of a small building on a road, sion of poles, fencing materials, firewood particularly for the purpose of establishing and other minor forest products where at the entrance to a park a point at which a methods, intensity and locality of use do charge can be made for entry to the park. At not conflict with the primary use deter­ the commencement of my speech, I referred mined by the Land Conservation Council. to the heavy burden of cost imposed on the Despite the fact that the area will be a na­ community by the need to properly manage tional park, the concept is being watered national park areas and to control activities down. That is reasonable in this case. How­ within them. Obviously, we are going to ever, I am concerned that the classification extend even further the user-pays principle "national park" may not be accurate in this into national parks, and that is the clear case. Honourable members should examine inference contained in the Bill. that point. I am aware that one must pay a fee to If I were asked to define a true national enter the Mount Buffalo National Park be­ park, I would suggest that the Mount Buf­ cause I have paid the charge myself. Charges falo Plateau would fit the bill. No doubt, must also be paid to enter some coastal there are other parks throughout the State parks on the Mornington Peninsula. It may that would also fit the bill, but I make the point that the areas declared as national be a relatively costly exercise to collect parks should be small rather than large and money from tourists, and I am inclined to that an additional classification is required believe a substantial portion of the funds with a different management regime. actually collected may well go towards pay­ ing the people who sit in a hot and sunny I am sure that many people in the State, place, particularly at week-ends, in order to including those with a keen interest in con­ collect fees. I am not sure how profitable is servation issues, would agree with the com­ the exercise. ments that I have made. It is not the intention to force commercial activities to It points again to the great cost to the take place as they are currently being car­ community of having large areas managed ried out in many areas. in that fashion. It also points to the reason­ The Bill deals with a number of matters ableness of allowing other activities which, that are not major in their effect, but they commercial in nature, have the ability to are of interest to some people. For example, produce and procure income from the State I note that those people who bequeath land because of that use and facility. Perhaps that or make it available privately to the State is a better way of earning income to manage for conservation purposes have some rec­ Victorian national parks, on a co-operative ognition in the Bill, and that is right, proper multi-use basis, if you like, to meet some of and reasonable. I know that there are those the costs of management of public land. who have an intense and keen interest in The National Party sees the user-pays­ conservation matters and who privately own principle being extended. Interestingly, I, land that is significant in that respect. It is and other members of Parliament, includ­ reasonable that it be given legislative pro­ ing the Minister, were guests of the Austra­ tection and acknowledgment. lian Conservation Foundation late in April 1190 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 National Parks (Further Amendment) Bill of this year and we journeyed to the Kos­ The area of Reef Hills near Benalla I know ciusko National Park. reasonably well as I have travelled past it The Hon. M. A. Birrell-It was an enjoy­ often enough. It is in myoid electorate­ able trip. but not in the new one which I hope I will represent in a few years' time-and it is a The Hon. D. M. EVANS~1 know that Mr Birrell enjoyed it and was as pleased as significant area in the Benalla district. I was to have the opportunity of taking the I understand that there is community ac­ trip. No doubt, we were all similarly im­ ceptance and reasonable support for the pressed by the things that were being done declarations proposed in the Bill. However, to protect a very fragile and wet area at a the Benalla Shire Council has expressed very high elevation above Thredbo Village, some concern that there is no direct men­ at the top station at Thredbo, where steel tion in the schedule of the right of the coun­ walkways, at a cost of some $180 or $200 a cil or any other roadmaking authority to metre, were installed through the alpine gather gravel from within the park area for meadows. Had they not been installed, the purpose of constructing, maintaining much more damage would have been and improving the roads within the park. I caused-certainly more than would be assume that is a reasonable usage, but it is caused by cattle-by the 1500 to 2000 tour­ not mentioned in the schedule. The Minis­ ists who normally traverse that country daily ter may care to confirm that it will be pos­ in the season. However, it is an expensive sible to obtain the gravel from within the exercise and a charge would need to be made park in order to look after the roads in that on tourists entering that area to recover park. some of the high capital cost of the installa­ I also note that there is a spelling error in tion of those steel walkways. Therefore, one the amendments to Schedule Three of the would be entering into a high cost area. Act, as contained in Part B of the Schedule Clearly, the Government is hoping, through in the Bill. It is not "K-e-I-f-e-e-r-a"; it is the measure, to recoup some of that cost. spelt "K-i-I-f-e-e-r-a", and it has always been I note the comments of Mr Knowles. spelt that way so far as I know. Concern has been expressed to me also The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (the Hon. about the possibility of restrictions on car­ K. I. M. Wright)-Perhaps the honourable rying of firearms, which would be quite le­ member could raise it with the Minister at gal on the ordinary highways and byways-of a later stage. the State, if such a highway or byway that The Hon. D. M. EVANS- Yes, Sir, I traverses a national park area should be de­ could do that. I was perhaps lending a little clared as part of a national park. The Omeo bit of local knowled~e. With the comments and North-East roads and the Gippsland I have made, I indicate that the National and North-East roads come to mind. I also Party raises no objection to the passage of think of the Warby Ranges, the Grampians the proposed legislation. and so on. There is a road between Wangar­ The Hon. M. A. BIRRELL (East Yarra atta and Shepparton, through the Warby Province)-I join my colleague, Mr State Park and I often traverse that road Knowles, in indicating that the Liberal Party between the two cities, as, no doubt, do other does not oppose the Bill and sees great merit people. Farmers on the far side of the Warby in most parts of it. However, the subject I Ranges also would use that road to travel to wish to address is a topic that is not in­ town. Therefore, it is used as a normal road. cluded in the Bill. Over the past year, the Ifa national park were declared, there could Minister and the Cain Government gener­ be problems and I shall be interested to hear ally have failed to act on the concept of about the amendments to be moved by Mr creating·a national park at Point Nepean, Knowles. on the tip of the Momington Peninsula. I have indicated that it is the view of the In his second-reading speech, the Minis­ National Party that it would be more appro­ ter stated: priate to declare smaller areas of land as The Langwarrin Rora and Fauna Reserve comprises national parks rather than very large ones. 214 hectares of natural bushland on the Mornington The schedule of the Bill keeps the areas of Peninsula. The area was originally a military reserve land to be so declared within what the Na­ which passed from the Victorian Government to the tional Party believes is a reasonable size. Commonwealth Government at the time of Federa- National Parks (Further Amendment) Bill 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1191 tion. From 1886 to the mid-1970s the area was used by to the State Government for use as a the military for a range of purposes. By 1975, however, national park; in Western Australia, the the reserve was no longer needed as a military training Federal Government has handed over the site. army site on Rottnest Island to the State With that justification, the Minister has an­ Government for use as a national park. For nounced, through his explanation of the Bill, yet unexplained reasons, the Cain Govern­ that the Langwarrin area will soon be turned ment has failed to secure a similar transfer over to the control of the National Parks of the similar piece ofland at Point Nepean. Service. I commend that act, but it is my I am not alone in calling for the creation firm view and the view of many people who of a protected environmental and historical have visited the Point Nepean area that habitat on the tip of the Mornington Pen­ similar action should be taken to turn that insula. The National Parks Service, an magnificent area of land into a national agency of the Government, supports such park. action. In addition, the view is shared by Honourable members may recall that I voluntary organizations like the Victorian have raised this issue in this place on a National Parks Association, the Australian number of occasions and sought action from Conservation Foundation and the Conser­ the Cain Government. Point Nepean is a vation Council of Victoria. captivating area, which has both historic and The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (the Hon. scenic importance to the people of Victoria K. I. M. Wright)-Order! I have been lis­ and Australia. There is an urgent need for tening patiently to the honourable member. steps to be taken to conserve this unique I understand he is discussing an area not coastal environment, which is currently part included in the Bill. Although he is discuss­ of the Department of Defence officer cadet ing what he considers to be one of the defi­ school at Portsea. The land controlled by ciencies of the Bill, strictly speaking, the officer cadet school will become vacant although I am happy for him to broach the in approximately eighteen months' time subject, he should not allude to it in greater when that school is shifted to Canberra. It detail. is my wish that the land should then be The Hon. M. A. BIRRELL-The Gov­ turned over to the National Parks Service ernment has failed to heed the views of these for use as a national park, or it could well voluntary groups and I am concerned that be made an historic park. the people of Victoria, therefore, will not be If we are to conserve the unique coastal given proper access to Point Nepean and environment and to preserve the old forts that they will not be able to enjoy it as much and quarantine station at Point Nepean, ac­ as if it were turned into a national park. I tion must be taken now before that oppor­ call on the Cain Government to act on this tunity is lost. The current inactivity of the matter urgently and not to allow the final Cain Government, linked with the. lethargy decision on Point Nepean to be made by of the Hawke Government, has meant that some distant bureaucrats in Canberra. moves towards declaring a national park in The Hon. ROBERT LA WSON (Higin­ the area have been treated very lightly in­ botham Province)-I am grateful to Mr deed. Birrell for mentioning the creation of a na­ The threat, therefore, is that a national tional park at Point Nepean. He stated that park will not be established in that area and the Bill was notable for what was left out as that the land will simply be used for another well as for what was put in. Another impor­ Department of Defence purpose. The state­ tant area left out is the proposed Cob­ ment that I have quoted from the Minister's beras-Tingeringy National Park. second-reading speech indicates that such Honourable members will be aware that the action can be taken, just as it has been taken Land Conservation Council has examined with regard to the natural bushland on the the area of Cobberas-Tingeringy and it has Mornington Peninsula. The Minister estab­ recommended that it should become a na­ lished his own precedent, and there are tional park. I am on very firm ground when many others. I say that I am disappointed that it has not In New South Wales, the Federal Gov­ been included in the Bill. ernment has handed over the historic quar­ When one considers the allocation being antine station in the Sydney harbour area made to the National Parks Service in the 1192 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 National Parks (Further Amendment) Bill last Budget, it is perhaps just as well that to their appropriate management, despite Cobberas-Tingeringy is stlll waiting in the the concern of some honourable members wings. If it were declared a national park, that this will not occur. I again give an as­ the National Parks Service would not be surance that under the restructure of the able to service it. I make that judgment be­ department, much additional work will be cause even the small areas included in the able to be carried out in parks, including National Parks Service, the extra 15 hec­ areas to which Mr Evans referred of fire tares from Bass Park handed over to the prevention and vermin and noxious weeds Cape Schanck Park, the 670 hectares in control. Many of Mr Evans' constituents Steiglitz Park and the 2040 hectares of Reef appear to believe national parks actually Hills Park, will strain the resources of the encourage vermin and noxious weeds. Every National Parks Service .. I hope in the next endeavour will be taken by the department Budget some recognition will be made of to take care of those matters. these added strains by increasing the allo­ With the amalgamation of all land man­ cation. agers, the Government has had ability to The Hon. M. A. Birrell-The Kennett utilize resources, as can be seen in the in­ Government will do that. stance of the locust plague. The Govern­ The Hon. ROBERT LAWSON-Pre­ ment issued a directive to all officers of the sumably the first Kennett Ministry will have National Parks Service, the Forests Com­ to grapple with the problem of the proposed mission and Soil Conservation Authority to Cobberas-Tingeringy National Park, and I watch for signs of locusts in their areas and shall be happy to address the House on that to immediately notify the Vermin and Nox­ occasion. I hope to encourage the leader of ious Weeds Destruction Board to ensure the Liberal Party and the honourable mem­ that immediate action is taken to spray those ber for Balwyn, the new Treasurer, to in­ areas. That is an example of what the Gov­ crease the Budget for the National Parks ernment hopes to achieve in national parks Service. I anticipate very much the policies in the future with the restructure of the that the Honourable Rupert Hamer intro­ department. duced on national parks and conservation once again being taken up by a new Liberal The clause was agreed to, as were clauses Party Minister. 3 to 16. The motion was agreed to. Clause 17 The Bill was read a second time and com- The Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Ballarat mitted. Province)-I wish to raise a couple of mat­ ters with the Minister for Conservation, Clause 1 was agreed to. Forests and Lands. The first is that pro­ Clause 2 posed section 37A (4) states: The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Minister Sections 36, 37 and 44 of the Act shall apply to a for Conservation, Forests and Lands)-The road as if the road formed part of the park which is Bill is important in its own right. It makes adjacent to or entered from the road. significant amendments to the Act and pro­ Sections 36, 37 and 44 of the principal Act vides for the addition and declaration un­ set out the requirement that anyone enter­ der the Act of two very important ing a park with a firearm or proposing to conservation resources at Reef Hills and Langwarrin. It makes allowances for road­ use a firearm requires approval for a permit works to be carried out of the Hume High­ from the Director of National Parks. The way through the Chiltern State Park and Opposition has no qualms or criticism and where the Great Ocean Road passes through agrees with that provision. However, pro­ the OtwayNational Park, and it makes posed sub-section (4) suggests that the pro­ minor changes to the boundaries of several vision shall apply to a road which is adjacent other parks. The Bill also provides machin­ to a park or enters the park, as if the road ery changes to the Act which are part of the were part of the park. normal procedure of legislation. Proposed section 37 A (5) sets out various I thank Mr Knowles, Mr Lawson, Mr Bir­ reasons for specified roads. I seek an assur­ rell and Mr Evans for their comments and ance from the Minister that proposed sec­ support of the Bill. The Government is tion 37 A (4) will apply only to roads specified strongly committed to national parks and in sub-section (5). That is a critical point. National Parks (Further Amendment) Bill 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1193

Otherwise, if it applies to any road passing I give honourable members the assurance through a park or adjacent to a park, it will that the proposed section applies only to create wrongful prosecutions for people who roads declared under those categories and in all innocence are driving along a road not on other roads unless they are declared with a firearm in their car, unaware that it by the local council and published in the is illegal to do so. They can also have their Government Gazette. Mr Knowles men­ firearm confiscated or be charged. I believe tioned the road leading off the main road. that is wrong. I seek an assurance from the No permit would be required for carrying a Minister that proposed sub-section (4) will firearm while travelling along that road un­ apply only to roads specified in proposed less the council declares that to be a road sub-section (5). where a firearm could not be carried. The The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN council has the right to issue that permit. (Western Province)-This is an important The Hon. D. G. CROZIER (Western issue and I raised the same issue with the Province)-I am not entirely satisfied with Minister when the Chamber debated the that assurance because I do not believe it national parks legislation which created the satisfies what has been sought by my col­ Grampians National Park. I pointed out to leagues. If proposed section 37 A (4) applies the Minister that, because of the strategic solely to the Wilson's Promontory Road and position of the Grampians, many people use the Mount Buffalo Road, honourable mem­ the main Halls Gap Road as a means of bers on this side of the House would have travelling from southern Victoria, from little difficulty in accepting it. However, the Hamilton or Warmambool, north to var­ definition has been broadened and I am un­ ious shooting events. Any suggestion that sure whether a road under proposed sub­ such people, who carry firearms in their ve­ section 5 (b), which is a road declared under hicles while travelling along the main roads, the Transport Act, would apply. The Act would have to obtain the consent of the states: director would be laughable and would be "Declared road" means a freeway, State highway, completely unfair. main road, tourists' road, forest road, stock route . . . When I raised that issue with the Minis­ That definition will really open up this ter, he stated that the through roads at that interpretation. It expands the ambit of the stage were not part of the national park. prohibition to so many roads that it will However, this new principle has been intro­ make the exclusion almost meaningless. The duced, so the point made by Mr Knowles is problem outlined by Mr Knowles and Mr important. The Opposition wants to be ab­ Chamberlain would apply, and the quali­ solutely sure that it is the intention of the fied assurance of the Minister does not carry Government now and in the foreseeable fut­ much weight. ure to restrict the proposals of proposed sec­ If someone were driving through a nat­ tion 37A (4) to the areas set out in sub­ ional park such as the Grampians, perhaps section (5). a shooter travelling from Hamilton to Lake The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Minister Buloke in northern Victoria for the duck for Conservation, Forests and Lands)-I season, obviously that person would have give Mr Knowles and Mr Chamberlain an one or more shotguns with him. On my assurance that proposed section 37 A applies interpretation of proposed sub-section (4), only to the three categories listed under pro­ that person would be committing an posed sub-section (5). Paragraph (a) of pro­ offence. This provision must be qualified posed sub-section (5) lists two roads; for the problem to be overcome. paragraph (b) refers to roads declared under The Hon. N. B. REID (Bendigo Prov­ the Transport Act; and paragraph (c) refers ince)-The clause has aroused my curiosity to roads that are not declared under the now and I wish to raise a matter with the Transport Act, that is, roads under the con­ Minister. It appears that this clause has been trol of a municipal council. It is also speci­ inserted without proper consultation with fied that the council must publish a notice the Firearms Consultative Committee and in the Government Gazette before the sec­ the Shooting Sports Council of Victoria. The tion applies. Therefore, the council does not ramifications of the clause, as elucidated by have the power to decide whether the sec­ Mr Crozier, would be to place enormous tion applies to any roads. restrictions on shooters moving not only 1194 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 National Parks (Further Amendment) Bill through the Grampians National Park but An example was quoted in another place. also on other highways in Victoria that have Proposed section 37 A (5) (b) refers to: access to national parks because of trans­ a road or part of a road that is a declared road under porting a firearm in their vehicles. Is this the Transport Act 1983- again a question of a lack of consultation (i) that- with the people who understand what the (A) is bounded by each side by a park and ter­ shooting industry is all about? minates in the park; or The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands)-In (8) leads into and terminates in a park; and my earlier reply I gave an unequivocal as­ The Great Ocean Road comes into that cat­ surance that the provision would apply to egory. The declared Great Ocean Road now only roads listed under proposed section 37 A terminates at the Bay of Islands Coastal (5), the two roads mentioned, the roads de­ Park. It meets the criteria because it is clared under the Transport Act and roads bounded on either side by a national park, not declared under the Transport Act under and that declared road terminates in a na­ the control of municipal councils. I gave tional park. honourable members that assurance and I If it is the intention of the Government do not know what else they require other to apply this clause to that road, that should than introducing a specific clause to over­ be specified in the Bill and should not be come those problems. I cannot be more done by regulation. It would be better to adamant than I am. have specified roads in the Act rather than The Hon. D. G. CROZIER (Western simply to establish a framework which al­ Province)-That is appreciated. The assur­ lows the Government, by regulation, to ap­ ance of the Minister is given in good faith, ply sections 36, 37 and 44 of the principal but the situation has arisen in the past and Act to those roads. the problem remains that an assurance of The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Minister one Minister can be taken by all parties at for Conservation, Forests and Lands)-Mr its face value-and no doubt would be­ Knowles claimed that the Great Ocean Road but Ministers have a habit of changing. The terminates in a park, because under that law does not change until the Parliament definition it terminates in the Bay of Islands elects to change it. If the legislation is defi­ Coastal Park. cient-in other words, if the Minister~s interpretation is in conflict with the Bill­ I remind Mr Knowles that the Bay of Is­ the Bill is at fault because it is not reflecting lands Coastal Park is not a park for the pur­ the intentions of the Minister and the Gov­ poses of the National Parks Act; it is ernment. I want an assurance that the Bill reserved under the Crown Land (Reserves) will not have the effect I have described. Act. Section 3 of the National Parks Act defines "park" as a national park or land The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Minister that, by reason of section 18, is a park for for Conservation, Forests and Lands)-I the purposes of the Act. That means only have checked with the legal officers in my the land listed in schedules two and three department responsible for the preparation can be considered a park within the mean­ of the Bill who, in turn, have discussed it ing of the expression "terminates in a park". with Parliamentary Counsel. They assure No provision in the Act or the Bill allows me that it is adequately covered and that I other land to be regarded as a park for this can give the assurance that it is covered purpose. Therefore, the Great Ocean Road under the Act. That is their view. cannot come under the description of ter­ The Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Ballarat minating in a park even if it terminates in Province)-I understand the point the the Bay of Islands Coastal Park. The Bill Minister is making, but I am not sure it now states: would not have been better to specify the roads to which the section will apply. A Na­ Sections 36, 37 and 44 of the Act shall apply to a tional Parks Bill is introduced in almost road as if the road formed part of the park which is every sessional period and, therefore, if there adjacent to or entered from the road. were roads to which sections 36, 37 and 44 I propose to move a small amendment so should apply, they should be specified. that the proposed section will read: Crown Land (Reserves) (Amendment) Bill 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1195

Sections 36, 37 and 44 of the Act shall apply to a The amendment was agreed to, and the road specified under sub-section (5) as if the road clause, as amended, was adopted, as were formed part of the park which is adjacent or entered the remaining clauses. from the road. Schedule That small amendment may allay the fears The Hon. D. M. EV ANS (North Eastern of honourable members opposite. Province)-During the second-reading The Hon. D. G. CROZIER (Western speech I raised two matters: The first was Province)-Ifit were qualified by proposed the concern expressed by the Benalla Shire sub-section (5) (a) I am sure that would be Council that it still had the right to use the acceptable to this side of the Chamber. gravel reserve in Reef Hills for the purpose of recovering gravel to repair and improve I have a further problem with that pro­ roads in the national park area. The second posal because it does not address the defi­ was that I drew attention to Part B of the nition under proposed section 37 A (5) (c), Schedule under Part 21 A and the word which refers to: "Kelfeera". I pointed out that that word was a road or part of a road that is not a declared road spelt incorrectly; it should be spelt "Kil­ under the Transport Act 1983 that- feera". I would like the Minister to com­ (i) is bounded on each side by a park or leads into ment on whether the gravel reserve will a park; and continue to be used for road purposes. The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Minister There is no mention ofthe road terminating for Conservation, Forests and Lands)-I in a park. There are many roads that would move: come within this definition. A person could simply be carrying a firearm when travers­ Schedule, Part B, paragraph (c), omit "Kelfeera" and ing a park on such a road and he would insert "Kilfeera". technically fall foul of this provision. Ifthat In regard to the other matter raised by Mr is not intended, that matter should be Evans, I am not aware of the circumstances addressed. of the gravel reserve in the national park but I assure the honourable member that I The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Minister will have the matter investigated and will for Conservation, Forests and Lands)-My inform him and the council about the gravel understanding is that apart from the cir­ reserve. cumstances I have mentioned, a person The amendment was agreed to, and the would not be subject to that provision un­ schedule, as amended, was adopted. less the council had included that road by The Bill was reported to the House with declaration in the Government Gazette. In amendments, and passed through its re­ other words, the local council which has the maining stages. responsibility for the management of the road can, if it wishes, act so that by a decla­ CROWN LAND (RESERVES) ration in the Government Gazette a person (AMENDMENT) BILL carrying a firearm would not be charged with The debate (adjourned from October 24) an offence unless the council had declared on the motion of the Hon. R. A. Mackenzie the road under the Act. (Minister for Conservation, Forests and The Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Ballarat Lands) for the second reading of this Bill Province)-I thank the Minister for pro­ was resumed. posing an amendment which has the sup­ The Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Ballarat port of the Opposition because it will make Province)-The Bill is important. The it clear that the operation of proposed sec­ Government has been caught short by tion 37A (4) applies only to roads as speci­ winding up Parliament early, because the fied under sub-section (5). Bill is poorly drafted. On the surface the Bill The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Minister appeared to be simple but on further exam­ for Conservation, Forests and Lands)-I ination one realizes that it has enormous move: ramifications. The Bill will allow the Min­ ister of the day to enter into leases pertain­ Clause 17, line 39, after "road" insert "specified un­ ing to the use of public land for purposes der sub-section (5)". that may be inappropriate for the reserva- 1196 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Crown Land (Reserves) (Amendment) Bill tion. In days gone by much Crown land was from the conservation movement urging it reserved for a specific purpose; land was to vote against the Bill. reserved for market sites, racecourses and As a result of discussions between the so on. As the years have gone by the use of Opposition and the Minister and officers those areas for specified purposes has dis­ from his department, during the Commit­ appeared. tee stage the Minister will move amend­ Activities on Crown land other than those ments that will alleviate those concerns and for which it was specified have tended to restrict the operation of the Bill to activities occur with the agreement of the local com­ on reservations about which there is no mittee of management. An example is the overriding concern and of which applicable Colac racecourse reserve. That area of land uses will not reduce the significance. reserved is more than is required by the The Bill also empowers the Minister, racing club so some of the land is used for a where requested by either trustees or com­ golf club and a gun club. Neither of those mittees of management, to authorize the use activities is compatible with the racecourse of car parks on racecourse reservations for reservation. Other areas have been reserved use by persons other than racecourse for parks, yet are being used as caravan sites. patrons. The Bill will establish a framework which It has been drawn to my attention that will allow for those anomalies to be recti­ the Caulfield racecourse has significant car fied. Generally, the Opposition supports the parking facilities close to the Caul field rail­ Bill because often the lessees require con­ way station. Those facilities are not used siderable amounts of money to provide every day by racecourse patrons and it maintenance of the reserve. Therefore, a would appear appropriate that the area legal document is required. That becomes should be made available for railway com­ more important if a liquor licence is being muters to park their cars and then use the sought for a club situated on that reserva­ public transport system. The Bill leaves the tion. Often individual groups are under the power to determine that matter to the trust­ impression that they have a lease with the ees of the Caulfield racecourse. I seek an committee of management of the reserve assurance from the Minister that that is the but often they discover that they have no case, that Caulfield racecourse patrons will legal standing. be able to use the car parking facilities on race days and that one will not have the The Bill will authorize the Minister to situation where on mid-week race meeting approve the leasing of reserved land which days the car parking facilities will be made has been used for some time for a purpose available to railway commuters merely be­ that is inconsistent with its original pur­ cause they use the facilities every day of the pose. The Crown Land (Reserves) Act 1978 week. Such a situation would disadvantage specifies the many uses of reserve land. The the racecourse patrons. It is important that Land Conservation Council identified many the trustees of the racecourse have control ofthose reservations when reviewing public over any agreement to extend the car park­ lands and indicated that they were used ing facilities. often for a purpose for which they had not This is essentially a Committee Bill, and been reserved. Often Crown land is re­ a number of its aspects will be discussed served because it is of ecological signifi­ during the Committee stage. The Opposi­ cance; is worthy of conservation; has natural tion is concerned about the drafting of the beauty; is of historical or scientific signifi­ Bill, but with the knowledge that the Min­ cance; contains rare species of native plants; ister will propose amendments to restrict its is for the protection or management of scope, the· Opposition will not oppose· the wildlife and its habitat; is for public parks, second-reading motion. gardens and ornamental plantations; or is The Hon. D. M. EVANS (North Eastern for the protection of plants. Province)-Mr Knowles has detailed his They are all areas which Parliament has concerns about certain provisions ofthe Bill. deemed significant. When the conservation The National Party has had the opportunity movement became aware of the Govern­ of discussing with the Minister for Conser­ ment's proposals, it was horrified. The Op­ vation, Forests and Lands and his advisers position has received many representations those clauses which were of concern to it. I Crown Land (Reserves) (Amendment) Bill 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1197 thank them for the courtesy that was ex­ tention to the commercial operator. In tended to the National Party during those theory, when that operator wakes up on discussions, of which Mr Knowles was also Monday morning, he could face the pros­ part. I believe there was some value in those pect of not having any right to take action discussions, which indicated the real benefit to appeal against such a decision to seek of co-operation and discussion from time to deferment. time. I am certain the Minister recognizes The operator would also have the respon­ that, too. sibility to clear from that site any buildings The Bill has a number of different pur­ or other works that he may have under­ poses for a number of different reasons. taken as a tenant to the satisfaction of the From the point of view ofthe general public trustees, the committee or the Director­ the most important provision in the Bill is General of Conservation, Forests and that which regularizes the right of commit­ Lands. That person has substantial respon­ tees of management to enter into either sibility and a rather truncated role so far as leasing or licensing agreements with com­ his abilities to remain there are concerned mercial organizations, operators and so on. and the amount of notification that he may Some years ago, to obtain a Government be given. The National Party is concerned grant for work on a recreation reserve to at the absence of a notification provision in construct a hall, it was necessary for the a number of clauses. land to be publicly owned and many recre­ I am aware that the Bill will be the subject ation reserves and other public areas of a number of amendments in the Com­ throughout the State were handed over to mittee stage, when it would be more appro­ the Lands Department by organizations and priate to discuss it in greater detail. the local community. However, there is now However, the National Party will not op­ developing a real need, which has existed pose the motion for second reading of the for some time, to permit commercial devel­ Bill. opments and operations on those areas of The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN land. This can occur on everything from a (Western Province)-I support the remarks football club, or a recreation reserve to a of my colleague, Mr Knowles, in relation to bowling green and so on. It appears some­ the Bill. The Crown Land (Reserves) Act is what unreasonable to have a restriction an important Act which has effected consid­ simply because a local community found it erable changes to Crown land in the State. appropriate to hand over control of that land Therefore, any proposed amendment to that to the Lands Department. The House will Act must be considered carefully. recall that before Municipal Assistance Fund As Mr Knowles said, considerable con­ grants and similar grants could be obtained, cern is held amongst the conservation the requirement of public ownership had to movement about particular provisions of be fulfilled. In earlier days those grants were the proposed legislation, particularly pro­ substantial, which is no longer the case, and posed sections 17 A, 17B, and 17c. The feel­ many municipalities are concerned that ing is that those provisions could be used in there is little advantage in obtaining them. such a way to operate contrary to the spe­ However, in days ~one by the grants were cific purpose of the relevant Crown reserve. submitted and proVIded a major source of The Opposition has received submissions additional funds for many community from the National Parks Service, the Port bodies, especially in country areas. It is the Phillip Conservation Council and the Aus­ view of the National Party that, where there tralian Conservation Foundation. I refer to is an appropriate and reasonable use under a telegram sent to the Leader of the Oppo­ the committee of management and with its sition in another place on the subject by Dr approval, it appears to be a most reasonable Geoff Mosley, Director of the Australian provision. Conservation Foundation, which spells out Under clause 4, where a managing body the depth of concern over these issues. It of a reserve $fants a licence of no more than states: three years, It can be subject to termination Australian Conservation Foundation strongly urges at any time by a direction of the Minister. you to block Crown Land (Reserves) Amendment Bill However, there does not appear to be any in Upper House. This amendment is strongly against direct provision for notification of that in- public interest in that it would allow for reserves to be Session 1984-44 1198 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Crown Land (Reserves) (Amendment) Bill leased irrespective of purpose of lease. After 150 years CROWN LAND (RESERVES) the Cain Government is seeking to destroy most far (AMENDMENT) BILL reaching conservation measure ever enacted in Vic­ toria-the reserve system which protects our coastline The House went into Committee for the and stream frontages. consideration of this Bill. Clauses 1 to 3 were agreed to. The telegram is worded in fairly strong terms. Dr Mosley normally speaks In strong Clause 4 terms when he has a view to express. He has The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Minister demonstrated the depth of feeling within for Conservation, Forests and Lands)-The the conservation movement. I look forward Government will move several amend­ to seeing the amendments that my col­ ments to the Bill, and honourable members league, Mr Knowles, adverted to that are have referred to that matter in the second­ proposed to be introduced by the Minister reading debate. From time to time, some­ to determine whether they meet all the ob­ thing obvious is omitted in the preparation jections that have been raised. Having said of a Bill that has been the subject of a con­ that, I am happy to support the general tenor siderable amount of work over a long of the Bill. period. In this instance a clause was omit­ ted and the Bill was printed before the Gov­ The motion was agreed to. ernment became aware of a serious The Bill was read a second time, and it omission. was ordered that it be committed later this The amendments that I will move have day. the effect of limiting the generality of the Bill; they restrict the cases in which leases JOINT SITTING OF PARLIAMENT or licences may be issued for purposes that Deakin University Council: Monash Uni­ are inconsistent with the reserve concerned; versity Council: Victorian Institute of certain categories of reserves are specified Secondary Education Council for which the only leases and licences per­ The PRESIDENT-Order! The time has mitted will be in respect of uses that are arrived for this House to meet with the consistent with the recommendations of the Assembly in the Assembly Chamber to rec­ Land Conservation Council. Under the ommend members for appointment to the amendments no new uses will be granted councils of certain institutions. The joint tenure under lease or licence if the use pro­ sitting will conclude at an appropriate time posed is detrimental to the purpose of the for the suspension of the sitting for dinner reserve. so that I propose to resume the chair at The amendments also make it clear that 8p.m. all new building structures and the uses of The sitting was suspended at 6.13 p. m. land leased or licensed under the Bill will until 8.3 p.m. have to be cleared by the normal planning processes, exactly as if they were on free­ The PRESIDENT-I have to report that hold land. this House met with the Legislative Assem­ bly this day to recommend members of the The first amendment circulated in my Victorian Parliament for apPointment to the name inserts a new section 17 A and sub­ cou.ncils.ofthe Deakin .Uni~ersity, Monash section (1) of that section deals with lic­ UnIversIty and the Vlctonan Institute of ences and agreements for uses existing at Secondary Education, and that Harley Riv­ the time of the proclamation of the meas­ ers Dickinson, Esquire, MP, was chosen to ure. Paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) will allow be recommended to the Council of the certification of building structures and uses Deakin ·University; Edward James Hann, that existed at the time· of proclamation. Esquire, MP, was chosen to be recom­ Such certificates will be issued by the man­ mended to the Council of Monash Univer­ aging body, and must be issued within sity; the Honourable Bernard Phillip Dunn, twelve months after the commencement of MLC, the Honourable WaIter Jona, MP, the measure. Paragraphs (d), (e) and (f) and the Honourable Joan Elizabeth Kirner, specify the powers that are conferred on the MLC, were chosen to be recommended for committee of management or the Director­ appointment to the Council of the Victo­ General of Conservation, Forests and rian Institute of Secondary Education. Lands, namely, to grant licences, to enter Crown Land (Reserves) (Amendment) Bill 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1199 into agreements to operate services or facil­ be issued for such regional and coastal parks ities and to enter into tenancy agreements. to uses which are consistent with the Land Proposed new section 17 A (2) specifies Conservation Council recommendations. the terms and conditions that shall apply to Paragraph (c) excludes reserves which such agreements. have been placed under the management of Proposed new section 17 A (3) limits the another authority, for example, the Mel­ granting oflicences in respect of certain cat­ bourne and Metropolitan Board of Works egories of reserves. Paragraph (a) of that or the State Electricity Commission. They sub-section specifies certain categories of will be managed under the Act as the re­ reserved land for which no licence may be sponsibility of that authority. issued other than in accordance with the As amendments Nos 2 to 22 are conse­ recommendatiQns of the Land Conserva­ quential on amendment No. 1, I suggest, tion Council. These categories are five of with the leave of the Committee, that I be the categories listed in section 4 of the prin­ permitted to move them in globo. cipal Act. This was the main area that did Accordingly, I move: not worry the Government particularly, and Clause 4, after line 3 insert the following: that was why the omission did not come to Continuation of uses of reserved land for purposes its attention. However, it was realized that, other than those for which it is reserved-licences and while the present Government is in power, agreements. conservation groups and others who are "17 A. (1) Where, in relation to any land reserved concerned about these reserves had little to under section 4- worry about, but the conservation move­ (a) immediately before the commencement of the ment expressed concern that, if the Govern­ Crown Land (Reserves) (Amendment) Act 1984- ment should change hands, and a new (i) a person or body habitually used any portion of Minister had these powers, they may not be the land or any building thereon; used for the purpose for which they were (ii) a person or body operated services or facilities intended. Because of this concern by the on the land; or public and the conservation movement generally that these powers may fall into the (iii) there was a building or structure which had been wrong hands, the Government has pre­ erected by a person or body on the land; pared amendments to ensure that the mat­ (b) the land has not been certified under section 17 (1), or the use of the land, operation of the services or ter is enshrined in the legislation so that the facilities or erection of the building or structure (as the public can be assured that if, even in the case may be) is for a purpose not consistent with the long-term future, the Government does purpose of the reservation of the land; change hands, it will require an Act of Par­ (c) the trustees or committee of management of the liament to change the legislation. land or, where there are no trustees or committee of These areas of concern are listed in para­ management, the Director-General of Conservation, graphs (I), (m), (n), (0) and (ze) of section 4 Forests and Lands or a person authorized by the Direc­ (1) of the principal Act, and are described tor-General certifies, before the expiration of one year as areas of ecological significance, areas after the commencement of the Crown Land (Re­ serves) (Amendment) Act 1984, that the habitual use concerned with the conservation of natural or operation of services or facilities was occurring im­ interest or beauty, or of scientific, historic mediately before the commencement of that Act, or or archaeological interest; areas concerned the building or structure was on the land immediately with the preservation of species of native before the commencement of that Act- plants; areas concerned with the preserva­ notwithstanding anything in this Act and notwith­ tion or management of wildlife or wildlife standing any regulations made under section 13 relat­ habitat, and areas necessary for the protec­ ing to the land, the trustees or committee of tion of the coastline. management, or where are no trustees or committee of management, the Director-General of Conservation, Paragraph (b) relates to areas reserved Forests and Lands or a person authorized by the Direc­ under paragraph (w) of section 4. Paragraph tor-General may, with the approval in writing of the (w) covers parks, gardens and ornamental Minister, where the Minister so approves the purpose plantations. It is a very broad definition and for which the land or building was used or the service it covers within it regional and coastal parks or facility operated or the building or structure erected- as recommended by the Land Conservation (d) grant a licence to the person or body to enter and Council. The paragraph that is to be in­ use that portion ofthe land or that building for a period serted limits the cases in which licences can not exceeding three years; 1200 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Crown Land (Reserves) (Amendment) Bill

(e) enter into an agreement with the person or body Clause 4, line 33, omit "(2)" and insert "(4)". to operate the service or facility on the land for a period Clause 4, line 38, omit "(3)" and insert "(5)". not exceeding three years; or Clause 4, line 38, after "land" insert "and any use of (f) enter into a tenancy agreement wilh the person the land". or body who erected the building or structure- Clause 4, line 40, after "specifications" insert "or to as the case requires, for the purpose so approved. control of land use, including, without limiting the (2) sub-paragraphs (i) to (iv) of section 178 (I) (c) generality of the foregoing, the Town and Country shall apply to any agreement entered under paragraph Planning Act 1961 and any regulation or instrument (f) of sub-section (1) of this section. made thereunder". (3) Sub-section (1) shall not apply to land reserved Clause 4, line 41, omit "(4)" and insert "(6)". under section 4- Clause 4, after line 44 insert: (a) which is reserved for a purpose specified in par­ Continuation of uses ofland for purposes other than agraphs (I), (m), (n), (0) or (ze) of sub-section (I) of those for which it is reserved-leases. section 4 or deemed by sub-section (6), of that section " 17 C. (I) Where in relation to land reserved under to be reserved for the protection of the coastline, unless section 4- notice has been given by the Governor in Council un­ der section 10 (3) of the Land Conservation Act 1970 (a) immediately before the commencement of the of a recommendation in respect of the land made un­ Crown Land (Reserves) (Amendment) Act 1984 a per­ der section 5 (1) (a) of that Act and the granting of a son or body habitually used any part of the land for a licence or entering into of an agreement under para­ purpose other than the purpose for which it is reserved; graphs (d), (e) or (f) (as the case may be) of sub-section and (1) is consistent with the recommendation; (b) the trustees or committee of management ofthe (b) which is reserved for a purpose specified in para­ land or, where there are no trustees or committee of graph (w) of sub-section (1) of section 4 and referred to management the Director-General of Conservation in a recommendation in respect of the land made un­ Forests and Lands or a person authorized by the Direc­ der section 5 (1) (a) of the Land Conservation Act tor-General certifies before the expiration of one year 1970, notice of which has been given by the Governor after the commencement of the Crown Land (Re­ in Council under section 10 (3) of that Act, as a coastal serves) (Amendment) Act 1984 that the habitual use park, a regional park or a state park, unless the granting had taken place immediately before the commence­ of a licence or entering into of an agreement under ment of that Act- paragraphs (d), (e) or (/) (as the case may be) of sub­ notwithstanding anything in this Act and notwith­ section (1) is consistent with the recommendation; or standing any regulations made under section 13 relat­ (c) which has been placed under the control and ing to the land, the trustees or committee of management of an authority pursuant to section 18 management of the land may, with the approval in (1)." writing of the Minister, if the Minister so approves of Clause 4, line 5, omit "17A" and insert" 178". the purpose for which the land has been habitually Clause 4, line 12, after "Minister" (where first occur­ used, grant a lease of that part of the reserved land for ring) insert "given in accordance with sub-section (3)". that purpose and where there are no trustees or com­ Clause 4, after line 32 insert: mittee of management of the land, the Minister may "(2) Sub-section (1) shall not apply to land reserved grant such a lease for the purpose for which the land under section 4- has been habitually used. (a) which is reserved for a purpose specified in par­ (2) Sub-section (I) shall not apply to land reserved agraphs (I), (m), (n), (0), (w) or (ze) of sub-section (1) of under section 4- section 4 or deemed by sub-section (6) of that section (a) which is reserved for a purpose specified in para­ to be reserved for the protection of the coastline unless graphs (I), (m), (n), (0) or (ze) of sub-section (I) of notice has been given by the Governor in Council un­ section 4 or deemed by sub-section (6) of,that section der section 10 (3) of the Land Conservation Act 1970 to be reserved for the protection of the coastline unless of a recommendation in respect of the land made un­ notice has been given by the Governor in Council un­ der section 5 (1) (a) ofthat Act and the granting of a der section 10 (3) of the Land Conservation Act 1970 licence or entering into of an agreement under para­ of a recommendation made under section 5 (I) (a) of graph (a), (b) or (c) (as the case may be) of sub-section that Act and the granting of a lease under sub-section (1) is consistent with the recommendation; (1) is consistent with the recommendation; (b) which has been placed under the control and (b) which is reserved for a purpose specified in par­ management of an authority pursuant to section 18 agraph (w) of sub-section (1) of section 4 and referred (I). to in a recommendation made under section 5 (I) (a) (3) The Minister shall not give any approval under of the Land Conservation Act 1970, notice of which sub-section (1) unless he is satisfied that the purpose has been given by the Governor in Council under sec­ for which the licence is to be given or for which the tion 10 (3) of that Act, as a coastal park, a regional park agreement is to be entered into is not detrimental to or a state park, unless the granting of a lease under sub­ the purpose for which the land is reserved.". section (1) is consistent with the recommendation; or Crown Land (Reserves) (Amendment) Bill 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1201

(c) which has been placed under the control and movement's concern was not about a future management of an authority pursuant to section 18 Government but about the present Govern­ (1).". ment. Clause 4, page 3, line 2, omit" 178" and insert" 170". The Hon. R. A. Mackenzie-You must Clause 4, page 3, line 2 omit "or" and insert "and have talked to different people. . notwi thstanding". The Hon. R. I. KNOWLES-I do not Clause 4, page 3, line 3, omit "in relation" and insert wish to labour the point, but it relates to the "relating" . present Minister. The Bill, as currently Clause 4, page 3, line 4, omit "(2)" and insert "(4)". drafted, would allow this Government to Clause 4, page 3, line 6, after "Minister" insert "(given proceed with the proposed tennis stadium in accordance with sub-section (3»". without any reference to Parliament. That Clause 4, page 3, line 9, after "of" insert "any part is a matter of significance and many people of". would wish to express a view contrary to Clause 4, page 3, after line 9 insert: the decision of the Government to proceed "(2) Sub-section (1) shall not apply to land reserved with the project. under section 4- The amendment precludes this Bill from (a) which is reserved for a purpose specified in para­ applying to the areas reserved under sec­ graphs (l), (m), (n), (0), (w) or (ze) of sub-section (1) of tions 4 (1) (I) (m), (n), (0) and (ze). It allows section 4 or is deemed by sub-section (6) of that section reserves under section 4 (1) (w) to be han­ to be reserved for the protection of the coastline unless dled by this Bill whereas the use is incom­ notice has been given by the Governor in Council un­ patible with the reservation as has been der section 10 (3) of the Land Conservation Act 1970 a~eed to by the Land Conservation Coun­ of a recommendation in respect of the land made un­ cd. der section 5 (1) (a) of that Act and the granting of a lease under sub-section (1) is consistent with the rec­ From the date of proclamation forward, ommendation; or it does not allow any incompatible uses with (b) which has been placed under the control and section 4 (1) (w) to be handled unless they management of an authority pursuant to section 18 are specifically approved by the Land Con­ (1). servation Council. This is a sensible (3) The Minister shall not give any approval or grant amendment. It will restrict the operation of any lease under sub-section (1) unless he is satisfied the Act to handle areas where there is no that the purpose for which the lease is to be granted is concern and where it will put on a better not detrimental to the purpose for which the land is footing the existing arrangements. The Op­ reserved." . position does not disagree with that. Clause 4, page 3, line 10, omit "(2)" and insert "(4)". In those circumstances, I indicate the Op­ Clause 4, page 3, line 10, after "( 1)" insert "or under position's support for the amendments and section 17c". if they are accepted by the Committee, the Clause 4, page 3, after line 21 insert: Bill will be acceptable to the House as a "(5) Any building or structure created on the land whole. and any use of the land pursuant to a lease referred to The Hon. D. M. EV ANS (North Eastern in sub-section (1) shall be subject to any Act rule regu­ Province)-The National Party originally lation or by-law relating to approval of plans and speci­ studied the Bill as it was presented to the fications, or to control of land use including, without House. It has since been favoured by the limiting the generality of the foregoing, the Town and Country (Planning) Act 1961 or any regulation or in­ Minister with a copy of extensive addi­ strument made under that Act." tional amendments which make a consid­ Clause 4, page 3, line 23, omit "17c" and insert erable difference to the meaning of the Bill. "17E." As the National Party spokesman on con­ servation, forests and lands, I had some Clause 4, page 4, line 9, after this line insert: slight concern about the first amendment "(4) Sub-section (1) shall not apply to land which until it was explained to me by members of has been placed under the control and management of the Minister's staff. I appreciate the expla­ an authority pursuant to section 18 (1).". nation that was given to me. The Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Ballarat The National Party recognizes that the Province )-At the outset, I indicate that the Land Conservation Council has considera­ Opposition supports the amendments which ble persuasive force but no legal standing pick up the concern that I raised during the for its recommendations. It concerned the second-reading debate. Ifl could correct the National Party that the amendments to the Minister, I point out that the conservation legislation appeared to give substantial ad- 1202 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Crown Land (Reserves) (Amendment) Bill ditional weight, in fact an overriding con­ which the acceptance has some legal force trol, to recommendations by the council, and can be changed by the Minister and the because we know the Land Conservation Governor in Council with the approval and Council is not always accurate. I can point acquiesence of the Cabinet prior to those to severe deficiencies that have occurred in becoming acceptable recommendations. the data on which it based its recommen­ In that sense, the Minister has some de­ dations on grazing in the Mount Howitt area gree of discretion. The National Party be­ near Mount Hotham some time a~o. When lieves it is important. It believes the method querying the reasons for that decisIon, I was enshrined in the amendments before the informed by the Minister that an influential House is somewhat tortuous and it would document considered when makinr that de­ be far better if the Minister had discretion cision was a submission by the Soi Conser­ because if the Minister has the support of vation Authority. Parliament and the House and there is a I circulated that document and shortly matter that he feels requires an additional thereafter-and to his credit-the Minister power or an additional discretion, he can wrote to me and said that the Soil Conser­ legislate for it. It seems not unreasonable to vation Authority had denied giving any such allow the Minister some degree of discre­ information or advice to the Land Conser­ tion perhaps after consideration of the re­ vation Council. Clearly, the recommenda­ port of the Land Conservation Council or tions drawn up by that body were faulty. I whatever is the successor body to it. do not doubt that is a rare occurrence, but The National Party believes a need exists it has happened. The National Party also for some degree of discretion. One cannot has concerns on the structure of the Land dot every "i" and cross every "t", nor can Conservation Council. If the National Party has an opportunity to do so, it will certainly one be certain, particularly in detailed mat­ change the composition and modus oper­ ters, that a recommendation will be suffi­ andi of that body. For many years, I have ciently detailed or accurate and for that argued the need to have at least one repre­ reason the provision is somewhat inflexi­ sentative of the local community on that ble. However, the Minister for Conserva­ body when an inquiry is being made into a tion, Forests and Lands has given an specific area. That representative can look explanation and the National Party will not after local interests. When that facility is persist with its amendment which would not available, recommendations appear to have given the Minister that power. The be somewhat unrealistic. A former Premier, National Party raises no objection to the Sir Rupert Hamer, did not agree with me passage of the proposed legIslation but it on that. I had substantial correspondence flags its interest in it and, as has been indi­ with him in years past and when the posi­ cated, it is an area where an amendment tion became acrimonious, a private meet­ may need to take place. ing was arranged with the Premier to discuss The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Minister that issue. I have had similar but less acri­ for Conservation, Forests and Lands)-I monious correspondence with the current thank both honourable members for the way Minister for Planning and Environment. in which they have worked with the Gov­ Obviously, we are not necessarily always ernment in preparing these amendments. happy about the recommendations of the The Government has taken on board their Land Conservation Council. We believe our concern and the advice they have offered. I reticence is well-founded, especially when thank them for their co-operation in the this is an important part of the amendment. preparation of the amendments. The con­ I raise with the Minister in discussion the cerns of both the Opposition and the need for him-or whoever is the incumbent National Party have been covered. Minister-to have some degree of discre­ The amendments were agreed to. tion on this issue. In that sense, I was at The Hon. F. J. GRANTER (Central variance with my colleague, Mr Knowles, Highlands Province)-1 wish to speak on and I think I still am. However, the expla­ proposed section 17c, as contained in nation given to me is that the Land Conser­ amended clause 4, that deals with the use of vation Council recommendations have no reserve land for car parks. I first declare my force unless accepted by the Government interest as a trustee of Caulfield Racecourse and a procedure is then gone through under and that is the area to which I wish to refer. Crown Land (Reserves) (Amendment) Bill 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1203

An area under the control of the trustees of because that is the reason why that land has the Caulfield Racecourse, as I understand been reserved. the Bill, could be used as a car park for The Hon. D. M. EVANS (North Eastern railway patrons. No doubt the Caulfield City Province)-Now that the amendments to Council would be consulted as responsibil­ the clause have been dealt with, in sub-par­ ity for the maintenance of the area would agraph (iii) of former section 17 A, new sec­ be in the hands of the Metropolitan Transit tion 17B (c), line 25 in the Bill before the Authority. The race club would use that area Committee, states: on about twenty times a year. An increasing number of midweek meetings are now tak­ shall be subject to termination at any time by direction ing place. This may cause an inconvenience of the Minister; to railway patrons who park their cars there That refers to a licence under which build­ because the area will be used by racing pa­ ings can be installed and certain commer­ trons during the midweek meetings. The cial operations can be carried out. I note possibility also exists of a derelict car being there is no mention there of any period of left there. Who would be responsible for its notification of intention by the Minister. As removal? Under the Land Act and the For­ I indicated in the second-reading debate, a ests Act, the Minister for Conservation, commercial operator or any other licence Forests and Lands would have the right to holder may be subjected to summary dis­ issue a notice to remove the car. Consulta­ missal and that becomes more important tion should take place with the Victorian when one reads sub-paragraph (iv) which Amateur Turf Club before any leasing of provides that the trustees, the committee or the area is entered into. The race club should the director-general, as the case may be, can be safeguarded in the operation of the car require the tenant to undertake the removal park. of the building and the clearing of the site to their satisfaction, and so on. It seems The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Minister unreasonable that the proposed le$!slation for Conservation, Forests and Lands)-I does not provide for a period of notIfication thank Mr Granter for raising that matter and some right of appeal to the licence because it is important. Those areas have holder. been reserved under an Act of Parliament for certain uses, namely, by patrons of the There are no procedures for this measure Caul field Racecourse, in the case the hon­ and it does not seem reasonable to me. I ourable member mentions. Discussions also note that in proposed new section 17B, have taken place with some of the trustees which will now be section 17c (2) (c), there and with the Minister of Transport on the is no similar clause to that in 17a (iv) which use of the car park. I assure the honourable provides for the cleaning up and restoration member that, because it has been reserved of a site in the case of a licence which has a under an Act of Parliament, the first call on three-year term and in the case of a lease the use of the car park is with the Caulfield which has a 20-year term. There is no clause Racecourse trustees. The trustees make out that will give the committee, the director, the conditions under which the Metropoli­ or the Minister for that matter, the right to tan Transit Authority can use that area and ask for a clean-up of that site. It may be that then approval is required by the Minister. that issue would be covered in a properly The trustees draw up the conditions they drawn-up lease document. That, to my find acceptable, including the maintenance, mind, seems to be somewhat inconsistent management, cleaning and removal of der­ with the Bill. Also on page 4, line 8 of the elict cars, which are then approved by me Bill, states: and that becomes the agreement by which the area will be operated. It is not the Min­ The Minister may amend or revoke an approval istry'S intention to issue approvals on a wide given for the purposes of sub-section (1). basis, but it will be done on an individual There is no period of notification for a Min­ basis when it can be proved there is value ister'S attention and no appeal procedure in it. for the lessee in those cases. I accept that I assure the honourable member that the due notification would be given, but I be­ Government will ensure that the patrons of lieve something should be written into the the Caulfield Racecourse are given priority, proposed legislation and that the matter 1204 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Chinatown Historic Precinct Bill should not be taken in good faith on the Clause 5, line 17, after "enactment" insert "or under Minister's behalf. the Carlton (Recreation Ground) Land Act 1966 or the North Melbourne Lands Act 1966". I do not like that sort of arrangement. I Clause 5, after line 27 insert: have always held the view that if a second­ "(3) Any power or duty given to a committee of reading speech made in the House by the management appointed under the Carlton (Recreation Minister is good enough to bind the depart­ Ground) Land Act 1966 or the North Melbourne Lands ment, then there is no need for legislation; Act 1966 by the Principal Act as amended by this sec­ we need only the second-reading speech. tion shall be in addition to and shall not derogate from I ask the Minister to comment on my the powers and duties of the committee of manage­ remarks but I do not intend to move any ment under those Acts.". amendments at this stage. The amendments were agreed to, and the The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Minister clause, as amended, was adopted, as was for Conservation, Forests and Lands)-In clause 6. answer to the honourable member, the sit­ Clause 7 uation of termination oflicence without no­ Tbe Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Minister tice currently exists. Under the new system, for Conservation, Forests and Lands)-The the Government proposes that although that amendment to clause 7 is related to amend­ situation still remains for extreme cases, the ments Nos 23 and 24. It tidies up the legal­ licence system the Bill now proposes will be ities of the Melbourne City Council as a an improvement and it will be the normal council and a corporation. I, therefore, procedure to give appropriate notice in the move: case of the Government's intention to ter­ Clause 7, line 30, after "corporation" insert "and the minate a licence. I give the honourable said corporation shall be deemed for the purposes of member an assurance that a proper term of the Crown Land (Reserves) Act 1978 to have been appointed under section 14 of that Act as committee notice will be given. of management of the land". With regard to the other matter that the The amendment was agreed to, and the honourable member mentioned about sim­ clause, as amended, was adopted. ilar clauses, these conditions will be written The Bill was reported to the House with into the leases and the condition ofthe leases amendments, and passed through its re­ will be subject to approval. The Govern­ maining stages. ment will ensure that that safeguard is placed in the leases if the leases come to the CHINATOWN HISTORIC department for approval. If that safeguard PRECINCT BILL is not provided now, the Government will ensure that it is. The debate (adjourned from October 24) The whole system of Crown land licence on the motion of the Hon. D. R. White and leasing has been in need of reform for a (Minister for Minerals and Energy) for the long time. In the past, practices have devel­ second reading of this Bill was resumed. oped which now need to be brought into a The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN proper businesslike and legal basis and these (Western Province)-The Opposition is amendments that the Government pro­ pleased to support the Bill and its purposes. poses in the Bill will ensure that the whole In saying so, it believes that the method system of Crown land leases and licensing proposed to pursue certain objectives is in­ is under proper control. appropriate and I shall be proposing amendments to suggest a different direc­ The clause, as amended, was agreed to. tion. Clause 5 The Bill has been brought in by the wrong The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Minister Ministry. It was introduced into another for Conservation, Forests and Lands)­ place as a tourism Bill, but when it was Amendments Nos 23 and 24 recognize the examined it was realized that it had little to technical deficiencies in the appointment of do with tourism although there are impor­ the Melbourne City Council as a committee tant aspects on tourism. However, it heav­ of management for certain reserves. It is a ily impinges on the area oflocal government legal tidying up and, therefore, I move: and planning. Chinatown Historic Precinct Bill 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1205

As a result of that view, on 26 September the precinct bounded by Bourke Street, my colleague in another place, Mr Del­ Swanston Street, Lonsdale Street and Exhi­ zoppo, and I issued a press statement indi­ bition Street. Those streets themselves are cating that we welcomed the general thrust not included but everything else between­ of the Bill but we believed it was going about the lanes and Little Bourke Street-is in­ it in the wrong way. The Bill introduces two cluded in the precinct. new principles that are unacceptable to the The narrow footpaths are reduced by sign Opposition and, I believe, will be unaccept­ posts, customers window shopping and able to the House. people opening car doors. Another problem There is no doubt that Chinatown is, and is one of circulating traffic. There is a high potentially is, important for tourism in percentage of vehicles turning into Russell Melbourne. Street and Swanston Street from Little Those who have had the opportunity to Bourke Street which conflict with pedes­ travel to different cities of the world would trians. As turning vehicles are supposed to realize that the Chinatowns of various ma­ give way to pedestrians, queueing vehicles jor cities are important tourist destinations. are delayed while waiting for pedestrians to Obvious examples are in Los Angeles and clear. San Francisco where the Chinatowns in Another problem is the number of vehic­ those areas are major tourist destinations. ular access points onto Little Bourke Street. Many honourable members have had the Kerbside turnover of vehicles is high and opportunity of travelling to China or Tai­ constant. The situation is further aggra­ wan, and there is no doubt that there is a vated by the numerous side streets and car great interest in things Chinese. Last year I parks that abut Little Bourke Street. was fortunate enough to spend three weeks A further problem is the lack of pedes­ in China and that reinforced an interest that trian amenities. Apart from the congestion I already had in things Chinese. There will and conflict with vehicles, the area lacks be increasing links between Australia and pedestrian facilities. There is minimum China because, from next month, there will weather protection and parts of the area be direct flights from Australia to Canton have an unpleasant appearance, and in some and Beijing at a reasonable cost. An eight­ cases, an unpleasant odour, according to the day trip will cost approximately $800. One report. Another problem is the shortage of cannot go to the Gold Coast for that amount! parking space. The report deals with that Many Australians will take advantage ofthat matter in some detail. opportunity, as many have already. Austra­ The report outlines a few ideas to deal lians are a major group of visitors to Hong with the problems that have been identi­ Kong, and there is a general and increasing fied. The first of those is the creation of a interest in the community of things Chinese. pedestrian mall. The report states that the Any interaction and ability to visit other creation of a mall whereby Little Bourke countries always goes a long way towards Street would be fully closed to vehicular breaking down prejudices which we all traffic would have the benefit of making all share, to a greater or lesser degree. the road space available to pedestrians and In August this year, a report was pro­ appropriate activities. However, a traffic duced by the Melbourne City Council in co­ survey conducted by consultants employed operation with the Victorian Tourism by the Melbourne City Council established Commission and the Ministry for Planning that a full-time pedestrian mall would cause and Environment entitled "Ideas for Chin­ major traffic problems. Since a full-time mall atown". The report signals the proposed is out of the question, a suggestion has been legislation. As honourable members will made f9r a part-time mall that would oper­ soon realize, it signals it in a different way ate during certain hours of the day. than the way in which the Bill appears. Another idea is the widening of the foot­ The report is set out in an interesting way. paths by the setting back of buildings, but It deals with ideas for Chinatown and iden­ the report does not recommend that course tifies a number of problems that exist in the of action. It recommends, as does the Bill, area. Anyone who visits Chinatown will re­ the repeal of the Melbourne (Widening of alize the problem caused by narrow foot­ Streets) Act as it applies to Little Bourke paths. Chinatown is described in the Bill as Street. 1206 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Chinatown Historic Precinct Bill

Another idea to widen the footpaths is The report identifies a number of disad­ the narrowing of the carriageway. It is vantages encountered in the streetscape. pointed out that that can be achieved by They arise from· a number of thin$s; firstly, reducing the carriageway and converting the demolition of a number of nlneteenth parking space and "no standing" areas to century buildings with resultant vacant sites footpath space. For example, footpath wid­ being used as open-lot car parks; secondly, ening on one side or footpath widening by massive buildings on Bourke Street which staggering parking space. front on to Little Bourke Street which are All of these items appear practical, but out of scale with smaller buildings in Little they must be tested. Later, I shall deal with Bourke Street; and thirdly, the setback of some of the ideas regarding the possible recent developments due to compulsory closing off of areas to traffic because orga­ widening under the Melbourne (Widening nizations, such as the Real Estate and Stock of Streets) Act and the excessive traffic Institute of Victoria through Mr John Hull through the area. and others, are unhappy about those sug­ The report suggests a strategy to meet all gestions. Other ideas include increasing the problems. It states that it is clear that parking restrictions, upgrading Little Bourke the strategy required for Chinatown would Street and abutting lanes and the discour­ be one of continuation of the physical and agement of non-essential traffic. social attractiveness of the precinct, the im­ provement of the visual and urban relation­ A major problem exists in the area in re­ ship between existing and new buildings, lation to garbage collection, and the report and the preservation of the unique charac­ makes recommendations, as it does about ter of the area. The report makes sugges­ the provision of public toilets. The idea is tions for achieving that aim, one of which to preserve the essence of Chinatown. is to provide a building envelope which re­ It is important to place on record some stricts the type of buildings in the precinct. idea of the historical importance of China­ Another suggestion is that the details of the town. At page 29, the report refers to the facade should respect the narrow frontages, historical and social heritage of Chinatown vertical modular break up of facades and and states: the building alignment that presently exists Little Bourke Street between Swanston and Exhibi­ so old and new buildings can blend to­ tion Streets was the main Chinese quarter and the old­ gether. est non-English speaking settlement in Melbourne. It The last point is one with which the Op­ was established in the 1850's when large numbers of Chinese were attracted to the gold fields in central Vic­ position will deal later during debate on toria. This part of Little Bourke Street then contained clause 14. It relates to exterior building fin­ shops, eating houses, lodging houses and headquarters ish and the suggestion is that this should be of regional associations that brought their men out to such as to enhance the existing building her­ Australia and which looked after them, and various itage and Chinese character, and there is missions established by Christian churches. Through­ also some comment on the types of mate­ out the 19th Century, Little Bourke Street survived as rials that should be used. the Chinese quarter, an isolated community because of The report to which I refer is the back­ its culture, customs, appearance and taste, and was treated with suspicion by the majority of Melbourne ground for this Bill. Therefore, it is impor­ citizens. Despite the decline of Chinese population tant to examine what the report states about during the early Commonwealth years which came the need for legislation and then determine about because of restrictive labour, trade and immigra-­ how the Bill reflects that need as identified. tion laws, Little Bourke Street has survived as a Chinese The report sets out a number of proposed precinct. Chinatown today is a thriving ethnic enclave planning objectives for the area-and I will displaying an· atmosphere and .life with which the not read them, but they are set out as idea Chinese community as well as the Community at large No. 16-one of which is to encourage uses share. The significance of Chinatown has been well that reinforce the predominantly Asian recognized and it has been designated an urban Con­ character of the Chinatown area. servation Area by the National Trust. Mention is also made of the need for new Many of the buildings in the area have also legislation, and it is stated in the report that been identified in the Ministerial Interim this proposed legislation will be comple­ Development Order for Melbourne, which mentary to the planning controls which are will ensure their preservation. imposed by the Minister for Planning and Chinatown Historic Precinct Bill 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1207

Environment under the interim develop­ tute of Valuers, the Real Estate and Stock ment order for Melbourne. There is also the Institute of Victoria, the Building Owners suggested establishment of a committee to and Managers Association of Australia represent the Melbourne City Council, the Limited, officers of the Melbourne City Victorian Tourism Commission, the Min­ Council, officers of the Ministry for Plan­ ister for Planning and Environment. The ning and Environment, the Chinese Profes­ Federation of Chinese Associations (Vic­ sional and Businessmen's Association, the toria), the National Trust of Australia (Vic­ National Trust of Australia (Victoria), and toria), and the Melbourne Chinatown also with Mr Ken Wright, the National Par­ Association. ty's spokesman on planning. In fact, one of The report suggests that the council would the amendments that I shall produce during be empowered to carry out works within the the Committee stage is a result of the joint precinct under the power within the Local work done by Mr Wright and me. I shall Government Act and to strike a special rate propose to replace, by way of amendment, to carry out works for the precinct, such as clause 14 of the Bill, and I shall also suggest altering facades, treatment, landscapes and that the composition of the Chinatown His­ the like. toric Precinct Committee should include a member of the National Trust, as proposed I shall briefly deal with the first of those by the Minister. because, although I shall deal with it in de­ tail in Committee, I should like to explain In general the Opposition supports the the position that I put to the House earlier, Bill, with the amendments I have outlined. that the Bill contains entirely new princi­ The Hon. K. I. M. WRIGHT (North ples which are not to be found elsewhere. Western Province)-The National Party Clause 14 (1) of the Bill states: proposes to support the Bill in principle. It believes that it is important to the Chinese Upon the recommendation of the Committee, the Council may for the purpose of conserving and en­ community, not only in Melbourne but also hancing the character of the precinct issue directions throughout the State. in writing to the owner of any land abutting or within However, the National Party has some the precinct to carry out works to or to alter or decorate reservations about it, one of which is that it the land or any building or other structure perma­ believes the Melbourne City Council has nently affixed to the land in order to render the external had sufficient powers to do a number of appearance of the land or building or structure consist­ things that this Bill seeks to do. It seems ent with the character of the precinct. strange that the Bill has been introduced to That is a power which exists nowhere else remedy a lack of constitution, which the in the statutes of Victoria. There are re­ National Party believed the council had in quirements under various pieces of plan­ any case. ning legislation and other planning For the reason that it is all tied up in one instruments which can force the owner of a situation, I refer to the most important and property who wishes to make alterations to most valuable collection of irreplaceable his building to do so in a particular way, Chinese artefacts, the dragon, the banner and that is quite clear. The Minister has a and so on, that are housed in Bendigo. The number of controls on inner Melbourne, view in Bendigo is that this measure will set which controls provide for the preservation back plans to adequately house that collec­ of streetscapes and for the preservation of tion. the character of the area. This is a new pro­ I have discussed this matter with Mr vision, and I shall suggest an amendment at Dunstan, the Chairman of the Victorian the appropriate time which will go a long Tourism Commission, and he assures me way towards achieving the same result; but that there are no grounds for that view. rather than use the heavy-handed approach However, I would value the opinion of the of this Bill, the Opposition will suggest the Minister in charge of the Bill, on this mat­ use of financial inducements, such as are ter. envisaged in the existing clause 14 (2), al­ I have had discussions with Mr Russell though in a slightly different form. Jack, President of the Bendigo Chinese As­ The Opposition, in its consultative proc­ sociation, and he tells me that, after a visit esses, has discussed this Bill with the Law of Chinese journalists to the area, they be­ Institute of Victoria, the Australian Insti- lieve that the proper place for these artefacts 1208 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Chinatown Historic Precinct Bill in Bendigo is in the museum. The items are ers can be enforced. As Mr Chamberlain of considerable value, and I understand that mentioned, we have consulted with people one particular banner is considered to be and have come up with an amendment worth at least $1 million. which will go a long way towards persuad­ Presumably, there has been a delay by the ing property owners to carry out the works council in cataloguing these items. The view they are requested to carry out, but, never­ in Bendigo is that this is nonsense. A group theless, there is no compulsion on them to of people in Bendigo are holding $20 000, do so. and that is available when the Government This will be in line with all other legisla­ is ready to move. There is also material from tion. Clause 14 is far reaching, unique and the Bendigo and District Tourism Associa­ undoubtedly sets a precedent. Clause 19 im­ tion which supports that view. However, I poses a special rate. Some properties may shall not go into that on this occasion. not even benefit from the expenditure that I shall return to speaking about China­ is involved. I thank the Minister for the town. Regrettably, there has not been full meaningful discussions that were held be­ consultation in this matter. Many property tween all parties and, with the assistance of owners in the area were not even aware that Mr Chamberlain and others, the Govern­ the Bill was to be introduced and, as an ment will be proposing amendments that example, I quote the Melbourne Chinatown will probably quieten most of the criticism Association. In fact, I give full marks to Mr received. Tom Wallace, the National Party spokes­ Clause 15 refers to the power of the Mel­ man on tourism in the other place, for his bourne City Council to prohibit or restrict work on the Bill, and particularly on speak­ the entry of vehicles. The National Party ing to people such as those of the Mel­ has some. doubts about that. Some of the bourne Chinatown Association. He penalties are rather draconian and one contacted Mr Peter Chen ofthat association comparatively minor offence carries a pen­ just before the commencement of debate on alty of five penalty units or a $500 fine. If the Bill in the other place, and discovered one reads a newspaper, one discovers that that this important organization had not someone who has mugged an elderly lady even seen a copy of the Bill. and stolen all her valuables often gets off As well as Mr Chamberlain, the spokes­ with a lower penalty. man for planning in the Opposition, I have The boundaries can be expanded or re­ had discussions with a number of profes­ duced at will. The boundaries are Exhibi­ sional organizations: The Australian Insti­ tute of Valuers (Inc.) through the president, tion Street, Lonsdale Street, Bourke Street Mr Ted Hills and Mr Mick Solly; the Real and Swanston Street. I have a map which Estate and Stock Institute of Victoria, lists the streets and I was rather surprised to through Mr Brian Robinson; the Building see how many are listed. Owners and Property Managers Associa­ Another important factor is that there tion through Mr John Banks; and with Mr does not appear to be a provision in the Bill John Hull of Ballieu Allard Real Estate Pty in regard to compensation. Ltd. They all c<;>mmend the G<;>vern!Dent on The Hon. B. A. Chamberlain-There will introducIng thIS measure, WhICh will foster be no compensation. development in the area and cultivate tour­ The Hon. K. I. M. WRIGHT-This is a ism, but they hold grave reservations re­ weakness in the Bill and strikes new ground. garding several aspects of the Bill. One of The matter was brought to my attention in those reservations relates to clause 14, which a letter dated 23 October from the Real Es­ gives power to the Melbourne City Council tate and Stock Institute of Victoria and the to compel property owners to undertake Australian Institute of Valuers. They had works of a decorative or structural nature at their own expense. No provision was made the following remarks to make about clause in the Bill for appeal, although I understand 14: this matter has been taken up. The working party was unsure of the words in line 3 "of any land abutting". This could be taken to compel The proposed legislation strikes com­ a property owner with his frontage to one of the four pletely new ground, and there is nowhere major streets (i.e. Exhibition Street, Lonsdale Street, that I know of where such draconian pow- Bourke Street or Swanston Street) to carry out work to Chinatown Historic Precinct Bill 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1209 those street frontages even though they are not related Clause 7 was verbally amended, and, as to the core of the precinct (Little Bourke Street). amended, was adopted, as were clauses 8 to With those remarks, I indicate that the Na­ 13. tional Party will be supportive of the pro­ Clause 14 posed legislation. However, it is concerned The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for about clauses 14 and 19. The National Party Minerals and Energy)-I move: hopes the amendments to be moved by Mr Clause 14, line 10, after "Committee" insert "and Chamberlain will be accepted. I trust the with the approval of the Minister". Minister will comment on how the pro­ posed legislation will affect proposals at The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN Bendigo. (Western Province)-I could support the Minister's amendment and then proceed to The motion was agreed to. move my amendment which seeks to omit The Bill was read a second time and com- the clause anyway: However, that would mitted. appear to be wasting the time of the Com­ Clauses 1 to 4 were agreed to. mittee. I propose to omit clause !4 a~d re­ Clause 5 place it with a new clause, which IS my amendment No. 5. The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province)-The report to which I The thrust of the amendment is to rewrite referred earlier, "Ideas for Chinatown", clause 14 (1) to provide that the council, upon the recommendation of the commit­ made suggestions about the composition of tee, may request the owner of any land the committee. I shall not go through the abutting to carry out works to or alter or full details except for one aspect. Page 45 of decorate consistent with the character ofthe the report recommended that there be one precinct, but there is nothing in the Act that member recommended by the Minister for requires the owner to carry out works, alter­ Planning and Environment and one mem­ ations or decorations. ber nominated by the National Trust of Australia, Victorian Branch. The concept of compulsion is anathema The Bill makes no reference to the Na­ to the Opposition. It has been sugg~sted that compulsion is possible under sectlOn 8B of tional Trust, but clause 5 (2) (cl) provides the Third Schedule of the Town and Coun­ for the Minister to nominate two members. try Planning Act. That propositio~ has been I suggest that the National Trust should .be put in writing by the Melbourne City C0ll;n­ involved in Chinatown because it was In­ cH but it is not the law of the State ofVlc­ volved in the compiling of the documenta­ torla. Some people may wish it were so, but tion that appeared before the House. That no such power exists as proposed in clause organization is naturally interested because 14 (1). of the number of buildings on the register. I The Opposition will insist on amend­ urge the Minister to provide for one nomi­ ment No. 5 standing in my name. The nee of the Minister and one nominee of the financial inducement applies in clause 14 National Trust. (2). At the request of the Chinato~!1 Busi­ To assist the Minister, I have prepared an nessmen's Association, the OppOSItIon has amendment which he might like to consider added sub-clause (3) which requires the is­ and which would bring that about. I suggest suing of guidelines in relation to such work there is no reason for departing from the so that some ageement exists on what sort composition that was proposed in the doc­ of requirements should be made. umentation. There is no justification in the Mr Acting Chairman, I could go i.nto fur­ second-reading speech for changing that ther detail on this matter, but I beheve the recommendation and I ask the Minister to argument can be made succinctly, and I urge give serious consideration to that proposal. the Minister to agree to the amendment that The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for I foreshadow. Minerals and Energy)-I look forward to The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for taking up the matter with the Minister in Minerals and Energy)-I understand what another place at the end of the deliberations Mr Chamberlain has raised and the Gov­ of the Committee. ernment believes it should test the view of The clause was agreed to, as was clause 6. the Committee on this matter. 1210 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Chinatown Historic Precinct Bill

The Committee divided on Mr White's that we should be creating a new type of amendment (the Hon. M. J. Amold in the rate. The proposal to follow this method is chair). a modification of the existing separate rate Ayes 15 provision of the Local Government Act; so Noes .. 17 it is an existing principle. We are not creat­ ing new principles. A law exists in relation Majority against the to that, and arguments about the extent of amendment 2 beneficial effect on individual properties can be put. Fot that reason, I thank the Govern­ AYES ment for accepting this approach. Cur­ Mrs Coxsedge MrMcArthur rently, the rates in the City of Melbourne, MrsDixon MrMurphy based on valuation ofa couple of years ago, MrHenshaw MrSgro MrsHogg MrWalker come to 22·12 cents in the dollar. This pro­ MrKennan MrWhite posal before the House was for a 5 cent MrKennedy Tellers: increase, or an increase of about 22 per cent. MrKent MrMier If the council revalues and lowers its rate, Mr Mackenzie MrPullen the increase could be about 33 per cent. That is a substantial amount of money and there NOES is some doubt as to whether that would be MrsBaylor MrHayward required. MrBirrell MrHunt MrBubb MrKnowles The representative committee will now Mr Chamberlain MrLong be able to make recommendations to the MrCrozier MrRadford council for the level at which the separate MrDunn MrStorey rate should be assessed and the figures will MrEvans Tellers: meet the actual needs of the area. I thank MrGranter MrBlock the Government for its approach to this MrGuest MrConnard clause. PAIRS The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Mr Butler Mr Reid Minerals and Energy)-In response to the Mr Landeryou Mr Ward matters raised by Mr Chamberlain, I thank Mr Sandon Mr Houghton the Opposition for its contributions in re­ The Hon. D. R. WHITE· (Minister for spect ofthis clause. Mr Chamberlain is cor­ Minerals and Energy)-The Government rect in saying that the Opposition's and the does not wish to proceed with the other Government's amendments are identical. In amendments to this clause in view of the respect of the matter raised about the max­ fact that the Government has tested the imum rate that can be derived from the Committee on those matters. area, I understand on advice from the coun­ The clause was negatived. cil that it is $373 593-that is, if it went to the maximum of 5 cents. Clauses 15 to 18 were agreed to. The clause was negatived. Clause 19 Clause 20 . The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Minerals and Energy)-I invite honourable The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN members to vote against this clause. (Western Province)-I move: The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN Qause 20, page 12, line 1, after "may" insert "upon (Western Province)-Discussion has taken the recommendation of the Committee". place between the parties on this proposed As it stands at present, clause 20 (5) states­ amendment and I thank the officers of the that money, standing to the credit of the Melbourne City Council for their assist­ fund may be applied in payment of the cost ance. The Committee should find that the of operating, managing, developing and amendments proposed by the Minister and promoting the precinct. by the Opposition are identical on this The money should be spent upon the rec­ matter. ommendation of the committee. That sug­ I refer to the level of funds which could gestion was made to us by the Chinese be raised by the separate rate which is en­ community, and I trust the Government visaged. The Opposition parties put the view will accept it. Chinatown Historic Precinct Bill 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1211

The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for the Council makes any determination in relation to Minerals and Energy)-I have received ad­ that application. vice from the Minister in respect of this (5) The Committee shall send any comments on proposed amendment. The Government any application referred to it under sub-section (4) to supports it. the Council within 21 days after the application was referred. The amendment was agreed to, and the (6) In this section, "owner" means the person for clause, as amended, was adopted. the time being entitled (whether on the person's own Clause 21 account or as the agent of or trustee for any other The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN person) to receive or who ifthe land were let to a tenant (Western Province)-I move: at a rack-rent would be entitled to receive the rack-rent thereof.". Clause 21, lines 24 to 26, omit "for the purposes of defraying wholly or in part the costs of carrying out This is a new clause to follow clause 13 and any work or alteration or decoration directed to be in fact becomes clause 14. I have explained carried out under section 14" and insert "as provided the purport of this to the House. It involves in section 14 (2)". a system of inducement to property owners This amendment is consequential on the within the precinct to carry out work so that amendment to clause 14 and it is necessary premises accord with the character of the to substitute these words so that the two precinct. That view is supported by practi­ provisions work together. cally all the people I have spoken to and is the kind of softly softly approach that will The amendment was agreed to, and the prove acceptable to the business commu­ clause, as amended, was adopted, as were nity in that area. the remaining clauses. The new clause was agreed to. New clauses The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN Minerals and (Western Province)-I move: Energy)-I move: Insert the following new clause to follow clause 18: Insert the following new clause: Separate rates: Conservation and enhancement of the precinct. "AA. (1) Upon the recommendation of the Commit­ "A. (1) Upon the recommendation of the Commit­ tee, the Council may for the purpose ofcollecting money tee, the Council may in writing request the owner of to be applied for the purposes of this Act make and any land abutting or within the precinct to carry out levy a rate in respect of rateable property within the works to or alter or decorate the land or any building meaning of the Local Government Act 1958 which or other structure permanently affixed to the land in abuts the precinct or is on the land bounded by the order to render the external appearance of the land or streets referred to in section 4 (1) (b) (i) (ii) (iii) and building or structure consistent with the character of (iv). the precinct, but nothing in this Act shall be deemed or taken to require the owner to carry out the works or (2) A rate under sub-section (1) shall be a separate alteration or decoration. rate within the meaning of the Local Government Act 1958 and the provisions of that Act (other than sec­ (2) For the purposes of sub-section (1), a grant or tions 277 to 280,281, 288A (1),291 (1),292, 292A and loan from the Fund may in accordance with section 21 293A) and any other Act which relate to separate rates be made to defray wholly or in part the costs of carry­ and apply to the City of Melbourne shall extend and ing out any works or alteration or decoration. apply to that rate with the following modifications: (3) For the purposes of sub-section (1), the Council may upon the recommendation of the Committee is­ (a) In sections 283 and 287 (b) of the Local Govern­ sue guidelines in relation to works to or alteration or ment Act 1958 the words 'the prayer of the pe­ decoration of land or any building or other structure tition or' shall be deemed to be deleted; permanently affixed to land and any such guidelines (b) In section 289A of the Local Government Act may include recommendations as to materials colours 1958- and finishes. (i) in sub-section (1) for the words 'this Divi­ (4) Where pursuant to any Act or any regulation sion' there shall be deemed to be substi­ rule by-law order scheme or other instrument made tuted the expression 'section 19 of the pursuant to any Act the Council receives any applica­ Chinatown Historic Precinct Act 1984'; and tion for permission or approval for the carrying out of (ii) for sub-section (4) there shall be deemed to any works to or the alteration or decoration of any be substituted the following sub-section: land abutting or within the precinct or any building or other structure permanently affixed to any such land, '(4) Lump sum payments received by the the Council shall if practicable refer that application to council pursuant to this section shall be paid the Committee for the Committee's comments before into the Chinatown Historic Precinct Fund 1212 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Liquor Control (Amendment) Bill (No. 2)

under the Chinatown Historic Precinct Act until 1987. The racing industry, as well as 1984.'; the Opposition, appreciated the acceptance (c) In section 290 of the Local Government Act of that amendment. 1958- The Minister of Agriculture indicated that (i) in sub-section (48) for the words 'the mu­ the Totalizator Agency Board had a consid­ nicipal fund' there shall be deemed to be erable increase in its turnover last year, substituted the expression 'the Chinatown 18· 77 per cent, as compared to the previous Historic Precinct Fund under the China­ town Historic Precinct Act 1984'; and year. An equivalent increase will not occur this year and I believe the board will be (ii) in sub-section (5A) (a) after the expression lucky to show a 10 per cent increase in turn­ 'section 294' there shall be deemed to be inserted the expression 'or section 18 of the over. At present it is in the vicinity of only Chinatown Historic Precinct Act 1984'; 4 percent. (d) In section 291 (2) and (3) of the Local Govern­ The Government introduced a number ment Act 1958 for the words 'for such purposes' of n~w provisions in the Racing (Amend­ there shall be deemed to be substituted the ment) Act 1983. It created a Racing Appeals expression 'for the purposes of the Chinatown Tribunal; it created additional mid-week Historic Precinct Act 1984'; and thoroughbred race meetings; the con­ (e) In section 294 (3) of the Local Government Act straints on the transfer of meetings between 1984 for the words 'the works and undertakings' racing districts was removed; and a change there shall be deemed to be substituted the words was made in the method of distribution of 'the purposes'. the Totalizator Agency Board surplus grants (3) Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the from the Racecourses Development Fund Local Government Act 1958, section 298 of that Act for the purpose of central racecourse equip­ shall apply to and in relation to a rate under sub-sec­ ment so that patrons at horse race meetings tion (1).". could bet on greyhound races. Although I The new clause was agreed to. did not agree with all the provisions in the The Bill was reported to the House with Racing (Amendment) Act 1983, the twelve amendments, and passed through its re­ metropolitan meetings that the Liberal Party maining stages. opposed have not been the outstanding suc­ cess that the Government wished. Extra LIQUOR CONTROL (AMENDMENT) revenue has been gained for the Hospitals BILL (No. 2) and Charities Commission and for youth, sport and recreation, but not to the extent This Bill was returned from the Assembly the Government wished. The attendances with a message relating to amendments. at the mid-week race meetings in the met­ It was ordered that the message be taken ropolitan area have not been up to the de­ into consideration later this day. sired number. The number of people going to country meetings has been reduced, as SUPERANNUATION (REFUND OF has the calibre of the horses at those meet­ CONTRIBUTIONS) BILL ings. This Bill was received from the Assembly The Government should look seriously and, on the motion of the Hon. D. R. at what has occurred. Country racing should WHITE (Minister for Minerals and En­ be encouraged as it is a vital part of the ergy), was read a first time. country economy. It assists tourism in the metropolitan area, especially at this time of RACING (AMENDMENT) BILL (No. 2) the year when there are many important The debate (adjourned from the previous race meetings and many fine horses coming day) on the motion of the Hon. D. E. Kent to Victoria from New Zealand and over­ (Minister of Agriculture) for the second seas. reading of this Bill was resumed. A committee of inquiry into the structure The Hon. F. J. GRANTER (Central of racing. has been established and it will Highlands Province)-The Government, in examine attendances at both country and another place, accepted amendments moved metropolitan meetings as well as other areas by the Opposition, supported by the Nat­ of racing. The committee should consider ional Party on fixed distributions. That was the viability of country racing and the stakes a sunset clause setting fixed distributions that are paid at country race meetings. At- Racing (Amendment) Bill (No. 2) I November 1984 COUNCIL 1213 ten dances are falling off in both the metro­ other codes forever and a day. Perhaps, there politan and country areas. The Geelong Cup is an argument for some amount to be made was a well attended meeting, as was the available to the other codes but not on a Werribee meeting yesterday. On 20 Octo­ continuing percentage basis. A new scheme ber, the Bendigo Racing Club had a free day has to be evolved and I hope the committee for people who wished to go to the races. will come up with that. Everyone was admitted free and that was I have received many letters from train­ very successful with 7000 people attending. ers associations, such as the Ballarat Train­ On a number of occasions I have men­ ers, and from the Secretary, Mr John Adams, tioned during the debate on the motion for of the Trainers Association of Australia the adjournment of the sitting that country asking that the fixed percentage be reduced. clubs such as Bendigo, Seymour, Kilmore, However, the Government has seen fit, and Geelong and Ballarat, to mention a few, suf­ it has been supported by the Opposition fer from the lack of the totalizator service. and the National Party, to continue with Mention was made in the report by the this measure for a period. Chairman of the Totalizator Agency Board, Racing this year has received some Mr Nordlinger. The service was provided $24 877 899, a record amount. Most coun­ only where the clubs used the try clubs received an increase in their distri­ totalizator system which provides a direct bution from the Totalizator Agency Board. communication link with the Crisp com­ I was proud that the Bendigo club received puter system. The clubs I have mentioned an extra $102275, making it the second and many others would welcome the oppor­ largest country club in Victoria. tunity of joining the system. On course, It is also interesting to note in the TAB patrons would be delighted if they could bet report that most of the trotting clubs re­ on that system because it allows a greater ceived a decreased amount, so it was up to variation in betting. them to better promote themselves. Racing The most controversial area is fixed dis­ has had a very good Racecourses Licences tribution. The galloping sector does receive Board. Many honourable members would some advantage with the advent of the pay­ not know of this, although some country ment of a dividend after each race, as does members would know persons on that board harness racing, because it has a number of and what it has done. day meetings. The Minister indicated that I would like to record a tribute to Mr Bert the viability of race clubs was due to the Keddie, the chairman ofthe board, who fol­ promotion and entrepreneurial skill of those lows Sir John Dillon; Mr Lienhop, who was clubs. I agree with him, because in the rac­ the first and only country representative on ing sector considerable promotion occurs the board, and Mr Doug Reid, who repre­ and the administrators show great skill. The sents the metropolitan clubs. greyhound and harness racing areas will I am informed that there is every likeli­ have to improve. It is not easy for them, but hood that Mr Keddie and Mr Lienhop will I realize a new board has been established. retire at the end of their term. It will be a I wish the new Harness Racing Board sad day when they do retire. However, well, especially the chairman, Mr Trevor everyone must retire at some stage. On be­ Craddock, who is well known to me, as we half of racing in general I should like to started as bank clerks together many years thank them for the work they have done. ago at Northcote. The old board consisted They have visited every country racecourse of men who had great skills, especially busi­ in Victoria and that has been to the advan­ ness skills, namely, Messrs John Bowles, tage of the clubs. Arthur White, Bernie Ahern and Billy Rose. There is a matter that I believe is irregular They were dedicated members and their ex­ and, that is, the TAB report was circulated pertIse will be missed on the new board. to the country clubs over a week ago but on The fixed distribution is now sunsetted Tuesday when I went to the Papers Room for another two years. Although it is not an and asked the Clerk for the report, I was area of dispute, it is one where considera­ told that it was not available; that it had not tion will be given by the committee set up been tabled in Parliament. The report was by the Minister. I do not believe thorough­ only tabled in the House today but it has bred racing can continue to subsidize the been available to people outside for over a 1214 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Racing (Amendment) Bill (No. 2)

week. Perhaps that has come about because The fact is that, although the thorough­ of the new chairman who is not experienced bred racing fraternity has indicated some and I shall excuse him for that. I would concern over the provision in the Bill which have thought that Mr Rutter and his officers further extends the period of operation of would have known that it should have been the distribution formula agreed to some tabled in Parliament at an earlier time. twelve months ago, the extension means I wish to raise the matter of the failure of that the thoroughbred racing industry the Government to honour an election foregoes income to which it is entitled al­ promise, which was to hand back to punters though it would appear that a reasonable the fractions that are over and above claims case has been made in favour of the harness made by punters on and off course. I asked racing fraternity and the greyhound racing a question on notice, No. 489, in the House fraternity. and it was answered by the Minister of Ag­ By a vote of two to one, the move is fa­ riculture representing the Minister for voured because both the hamesss racing and Youth, Sport and Recreation. The answer greyhound racing industries, in letters that indicated that, in the year 1982-83, I have with me, certainly favour the exten­ $7 395 865.39 was not paid back to the pun­ sion. The Chairman of the Association of ters and, in 1983-84, $6 881 978.11 was not Victorian Country Trotting Clubs, Mr W. J. returned. Those funds went into consoli­ Rose, has written to my colleague in an­ dated revenue. When one considers that the other place, the honourable member for Lo­ Government received from racing some $61 wan, Mr McGrath, indicating full support million, plus the fractions that have gone for the proposed legislation, as has Mr J. into consolidated revenue, I have no doubt Diamond, President of the Greyhound that the Minister representing the Treasurer Racers,' Trainers and Breeders Association in the House will appreciate what racing of Victoria. does for the Government's coffers. The I also have a copy of a letter written to Government has accepted what was pro­ the Leader of the National Party from Mr posed in the Lower House. H. Nicholas, Chairman of the Victoria Rac­ I have been passed a message saying, "We ing Club, in which he indicates some con­ expect a tip for next Tuesday." The tip I cern about the procedure. He is the one vote give, and I do not wish it to reflect on the that is against the other two votes. He points event on 1 December, is that the winner of out that the thoroughbred racing industry is the Melbourne Cup will be "Bounty suffering a transfer of funds of $2·194 mil­ Hawke." lion from a total of $36·044 million. The The Hon. D. M. EV ANS (North Eastern transfer is in favour of the harness racing Province)-I am afraid that I have not the industry to the tune of $1·445 million and opportunity or chance of remotely capping of the greyhound racing industry to the tune - the performance of Mr Granter, as all I un­ of$749 000. derstand about the Melbourne Cup is that The letter indicates that, following the de­ it has horses in it. Mr Granter is well known cision of 15 October, the thoroughbred rac­ for his keen interest in racing and I under­ ing industry was concerned about the stand since the lightening of his duties, be­ procedure. It was arranged for the Premier cause of an unfortunate event oftwo-and-a­ to receive a deputation some nine days later half years ago, he has had more time to on 24 October, led by the Minister for devote to that pastime, which has led to his Youth, Sport and Recreation. rapid rise up the social scale in racing. I was fascinated by that because, as the In Mr Granter's declaration of pecuniary Minister of Agriculture will recall, for six interests, he referred to that matter. He has months or more I have· attempted toar­ a tremendous knowledge of the racing in­ range a deputation to meet the Premier to dustry but that does not mean one must discuss the extremely important matter of necessarily agree with everything he says on the withdrawal of research funds for the to­ the proposed legislation. bacco industry. I have been informed that The National Party commends the pas­ it is not the Premier's responsibility, but the sage of this Bill which extends the sunset responsibility of the Minister of Agriculture provision for another two years from 1985 and the Minister of Health. However, in to 1987. nine days, the racing industry can see the The Constitution Act Amendment Bill 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1215 Premier because some $1·6 million is in about the Bill, he accepts the results of a dispute, yet the Premier is quite happy to substantial degree of consultation. He ap­ let a $25 million industry employing several pears to be disappointed that galloping in­ hundred people in north-eastern Victoria flation has not taken over and that the go to the wall. That is a double standard, as increase in turnover has not been higher. I indicated in a question I asked in the Mr Granter would agree that the Bill is de­ House on another occasion. signed to bring a more stable atmosphere to The National Party believes the Bill is the racing industry. worthy of support. There appears to be a The motion was agreed to, and the Bill little inequity between the thoroughbred was read a third time. racing industry and the other two indus­ tries. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to THE CONSTITUTION ACT suggest that, in view of the fact that the AMENDMENT (DONATIONS AND greyhound racing industry-the Hdish lick­ ELECTORAL EXPENDITURE) BILL ers" -has substantial problems and is in The Hon. A. J. HUNT (South Eastern grave danger of being eclipsed as a sport in Province)-By leave, I move: this state, it receives some subsidy. I am certain that the thoroughbred racing indus­ That a select committee of seven members be ap­ pointed to inquire into and report upon the provisions try can afford it, despite the protestations to contained in The Constitution Act Amendment (D0- making the Hdonation". nations and Electoral Expenditure) Bill, the committee The formula calculated on the base figure to have power to send for persons, papers and records of the 1983 allocation and giving a percent­ and to sit in public or private as thought appropriate age of the additional earnings through the by the committee from time to time and also to au­ Totalizator Agency Board to each of the in­ thorize the publication of any evidence heard in pub­ dustries concerned preserves some degree lic; three to be the quorum: and that the Council proceed of equity. It also provides some degree of to the appointment of the committee forthwith. incentive to all industries to pick up their The reason for moving the motion is sim­ game, particularly the trotting and grey­ ple. The Bill is to amend both the Consti­ hound racing industries. tution and the electoral provisions of the It has also been pointed out that a large State. I have indicated on a previous occa­ portion of the Totalizator Agency Board sion, and have found some support for the turnover in Victoria comes from betting on proposition around the House, that matters racing in other States and, therefore, is not of that kind should, so far as practicable, be directly related to the Victorian industry. presented to an all-party committee. From the case made by Mr Nicholas and In the absence of prior consultation be­ his committee, we could have a situation of fore presentation of the Bill, the best method some inequity but there does seem to be seems to be reference to an all-party com­ some redeeming features. I am certain that, mittee before members of the House adopt in all generosity, the thoroughbred racing entrenched positions on the Bill. industry should be prepared to help its fel­ The motion is submitted in the hope that low sporting enthusiasts in the fashion that this can be achieved and that the highest has been suggested. The National Party possible d~ee of consensus will be reached. supports the passage of the Bill. If the motIon is agreed to, the House will The motion was agreed to. proceed with the appointment of the com­ The Bill was read a second time. mittee. I have had discussions with the The Hon. D. E. KENT (Minister of Agri­ leaders of the other parties on the member­ culture)-By leave, I move: ship of the committee, and it will be pro­ posed that the committee comprise three That this Bill be now read a third time. members of the Government party, three I thank Mr Granter for his learned dis:­ members of the Opposition, and one mem­ course. It is interesting that the subject of ber of the third party racing, over the years during which I have The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western been a member of Parliament, has always Province)-1 believe the suggestion of Mr attracted a keen debate from the Opposi­ Hunt in regard to this proposal is good. It is tion spokeman. Although Mr Granter was an issue that honourable members have not somewhat reluctant to be too enthusiastic had time to properly consider. They cer- 1216 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Health (General Amendment) Bill tainly have not had time to consider the MrRadford Tellers: implications of the measure to the degree MrStorey MrBubb that it really warrants, and a committee MrWright Mr Chamberlain would be the logical step in dealing with this NOES matter thoroughly. MrArnold MrMurphy At this stage, the National Party believes MrHenshaw MrPullen that is probably the best way of handling MrsHogg MrSgro the matter. It is happy to participate in that MrKennan MrWalker MrKennedy MrWhite committee, and one of its members is pre­ MrKent pared to sit on the committee and devote Mr Mackenzie Tellers: whatever time is necessary. I only hope the MrMcArthur Mrs Coxsedge committee will be active to the extent that . MrMier MrsDixon it will carry out and fulfil its responsibili­ ties. I believe Parliament and this State will PAIRS gain considerably if the committee is able MrHoughton MrsKimer MrReid Mr Butler to present honourable members with re­ MrWard Mr Landeryou ports and recommendations concerning this matter. ELECTORAL DONATIONS AND The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for EXPENDITURE COMMITTEE Planning and Environment)-It is appar­ ent that the two parties in opposition have The Hon. A. J. HUNT (South Eastern agreed together to refer this Bill to a com­ Province)-Following discussion with the mittee. The Government would have much other party Leaders, I move: preferred to introduce and debate the pro­ That the members of the committee be the honour­ posed legislation, which was introduced into abIes M. J. Arnold, M. A. Birrell, B. A. Chamberlain, this House this morning. It is a measure D. M. Evans, C. J. Hogg, R. I. Knowles and W. A. that ought to be acceptable and ought to be Landeryou. seen to be a proper way of handling the The motion was agreed to. matter of donations to political parties. In that sense, the Government opposes HEALTH (GENERAL AMENDMENT) the motion, but it is understood that, be­ BILL cause of the agreement between the oppos­ ing parties, the Government is not able to The debate (adjourned from October 24) win if a division is called. I simply insist on the motion of the Hon. D. R. White that the Government believes the proposed (Minister for Minerals and Energy) for the legislation, which was introduced into this second reading of this Bill was resumed. House this morning, could have been han­ The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western dled and debated quite satisfactorily, and Province)-The Bill makes a number of un­ the Government would have preferred for related amendments to the Health Act. The it to be proceeded with. only provision that really created concern in the community was clause 19, which re­ The House divided on the motion (the lates to private hospitals and gives the Hon. F. S. Grimwade in the chair). Health Commission wide powers to control Ayes 19 the number of beds in a private hospital, Noes ., 16 with the power to alter or vary that number. Sub-section (10) states: Majority for the motion 3 The Commission may in its discretion or upon ap­ AYES plication by the proprietor of a private hospital deter­ mine the number of beds at a private hospital and may MrsBaylor MrGranter alter or vary such a number. Mr Birrell MrGuest MrBlock MrHayward The measure does not mention consulta­ MrConnard MrHunt tion or appeals. The National Party has had MrCrozier MrKnowles fairly extensive contact with the Private MrDunn MrLawson Hospitals Association of Victoria which was MrEvans MrLong very concerned about the provision. The Health (General Amendment) Bill 1 November 1984 COUNCIL 1217

Bill has been delayed while negotiations The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for have taken place. On 10 October the Nat­ Minerals and Energy)-I invite honourable ional Party received a telegram from Mr members to vote against this clause. Neville Hughes, Executive Director of the The clause was negatived. Private Hospitals Association of Victoria, Clauses 20 to 26 were agreed to. in which he outlined a telegram that he had New clauses sent to the Minister of Health, which stated: The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Re Health (General Amendment) Bill clause 19. We Minerals and Energy)-I move: understand clause 19 is to be withdrawn in the Legis­ lative Council and you are proposing to substitute a Insert the following new clause to follow clause 18: new set of words. Please ensure debate in the Legisla­ 'AA. In section 179 of the Principal Act- tive Council does not proceed until we have had a (a) for sub-section (6) there shall be substituted the chance to study the new words and discuss it with you. following sub-sections: Since then, a set of amendments has been "(6) A private hospital, however classed, may drawn up, which I understand the Minister be registered- will move at the appropriate time, which (a) for a total number of beds for the accom­ meets with the general approval of the modation of persons at that private hospi­ association. tal; and (b) for a specified number or numbers of beds In referring to the Bill, the association for persons receiving care of a prescribed said that an earlier amendment in the form kind or kinds in that private hospital. proposed would, ifliberally interpreted, give (6A) The Commission may, upon applica­ the common power to reduce the number tion by the proprietor of the private hospital or of beds for reasons quite unconnected with in its discretion- any change in the suitability of hospital (a) alter the total number of beds for which a premises. On the right of appeal, the asso­ private hospital is registered; or ciation said: (b) alter the number or numbers of beds for We submit that the right of appeal under section 387 persons receiving care of a prescribed kind to a Judge of the County Court, against the refusal of or kinds for which it is registered. the Commission to approve of certain applications or (68) The Commission may, after consulta­ grant certain renewals is a desirable power in the public tion with the proprietor of a private hospital, interest and it is absolutely no justification for remov­ vary, revoke or add to the prescribed kind or ing that right that it has already been removed in rela­ kinds of care in respect of which the private tion to another Section. hospital is registered."; and The association pointed out to the Govern­ (b) in sub-section (8) for the words preceding paragraph (a) there shall be substituted the ment that private hospitals could be ad­ words "Before making a determination versely affected by the wide power being upon an application for registration, or re­ handed to the commission. newal of registration, or for transfer of reg­ istration to another person or to other Generally, the National Party supports the premises, or making a decision under sub­ Bill. It would not have supported clause 9 section (5), (6A) or (68), the Commission without a suitable amendment to meet the shall (as the case requires) inquire into and needs of private hospitals, because they are take into considertion-". an important part, as the National Party The Hon. J. V. C. GUEST (Monash recognizes, of the total health system. Province)-In originally proposing its own The motion was agreed to. amendment the Opposition was concerned The Bill was read a second time and com- that private hospitals would be subject to mitted. decisions being made without any criterion set out in the measure for action taken by Clauses 1 to 18 were agreed to. the Health Commission, when such deci­ Clause 19 sions would not necessarily result from ap­ The Hon. J. V. C. GUEST (Monash plication by proprietors, and without them Province)-The Opposition will not pro­ being given any right of appeal. ceed with the proposed amendments circu­ The Government has now decided to lated in my name as it has seen the consider the concerns of private hospitals. amendments proposed by the Government. The position the Opposition takes is that 1218 COUNCIL 1 November 1984 Health (Radiation Safety) Bill (No. 2)

when in government it will seek to maxi­ port than the time that has been available mize the use of both private and public between Tuesday and today. The Opposi­ facilities and, in the course of doing that, tion wishes to take a more detailed stance will review these provisions. on the proposal to extend the sunset provi­ sions in the original legislation. However, The new clause was agreed to. the Opposition takes the view that consid­ The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for erin$ the remaining doubts about the desir­ Minerals and Energy)-I move: abilIty of controlling the decisions of Insert the following new clause to follow clause 24: individual medical practitioners by a form Amendment of section 387. of legislation, it would be inappropriate to '88. After section 387 (1) of the Principal Act there extend the term of the legislation to 31 De­ shall be inserted the following sub-section: cember next year. ..( 1A) Where the Commission makes a decision un­ It is the view of the Opposition that it der section 179 (5), (6A) or (68) affecting a private would be sufficient to extend it until 30 June hospital (otherwise than on the application of the pro­ 1985 which would give ample time for the prietor of the private hospital), the proprietor of the Government to consider the report of the private hospital may, within one month after the deci- . sion, apply ex parte to a judge of the County Court for Social Development Committee and any an order calling upon the Commission to appear before further work that needs to be done, while a judge of the County Court nominated by the Chair­ the Opposition does the same. The pro­ man of judges of the Country Court on a day and at a posed legislation also introduces a provi­ time named in the order and to show cause why the sion for approvals in principle of decisions decision is made." '. by medical practitioners or others to pur­ The new clause was agreed to, as was the chase expensive radiation apparatus. The schedule. Bill anticipates the report of the Social De­ The Bill was reported to the House with velopment Committee on certificate of need amendments, and passed through its re­ legislation. Recommendation No. 22 in the maining stages. report on page 33 states: That the Health Commission be empowered to give HEALTH (RADIATION SAFETY) "approval-in-principle" to applicants indicating that BILL (No. 2) radiation apparatus will be registered provided it sati­ ties safety and other standards imposed as part of the The debate (adjourned from October 3) Regulations. A limit of twelve (12) months should ap­ on the motion of the Hon. D. R. White ply to such an "approval-in-principle." (Minister for Minerals and Energy) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed. The recommendation is an attempt to re­ duce the risk taken by medical practitioners The Hon. J. V. C. GUEST (Monash and others concerning entrepreneurial ac­ Province)-The principal concerns dealt tion. The Opposition is concerned about with by the Bill relate to "certificate of need" procedures for radiation apparatus used in both sides of the certificate of need argu­ the medical profession. When the legisla­ ment. Nobody doubts that the medical tion was originally enacted the Opposition practitioner who has the opportunity of re­ expressed concern that principles justifying ferring the patient, who may have some rare certificate of need legislation were inade­ disease, for an examination by a CAT scan quately investigated and that the practical at a cost of $200 to Medicare would do it need for the legislation should be demon­ because it might do some good. He might strated. At the time, a sunset clause was take the view that it is more likely that it inserted into the legislation awaiting the would do more good than harm. recommendations of the Social Develop­ It is obvious that the more readily acces­ ment Committee. sible the equipment, the more likely this The Social Development Committee re­ decision will be made. It could be expensive ported on certificate of need legislation gen­ for the community because the overwhelm­ erally, not only in relation to radiation ing majority of fees payable for this sort of apparatus, in a report tabled on Tuesday diagnostic procedure would be paid out of last. It would be inappropriate to say that the public purse. There is no natural limit­ the report should be the last word on the ing force in the market and that is one of subject. However, honourable members the problems that concerns the Opposition. clearly need more time to examine the re- The Opposition is also concerned that the