Thursday Volume 537 15 December 2011 No. 242

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 15 December 2011

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2011 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 905 15 DECEMBER 2011 906

strong commitment to their library service, and the House of Commons Government are also strongly committed through maintaining the statutory duty. Thursday 15 December 2011 Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Is the Minister aware that some very hard-pressed local The House met at half-past Ten o’clock authorities up and down our land have already put libraries in children’s centres for dual use? Now that the opening hours of those Sure Start children’s centres are PRAYERS being cut back, people are losing their libraries as well. Will he talk to other Ministers about this matter? [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Mr Vaizey: I shall happily talk to many other Ministers in other Departments about the importance of libraries, and certainly I echo the hon. Gentleman’s comments: Oral Answers to Questions co-locating a library service, whether with a children’s centre or other services, is very important.

Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT (LD): Will the Minister accept an invitation to come to the brand-new Canada Water library, which was designed The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and planned by a Liberal Democrat-Tory coalition and Sport was asked— administration but continued and opened under a Labour administration? Both groupings running the council Libraries have agreed that there will be no closures across the borough and have sustained services. Will he come and 1. Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): see what can be done when the will is there? Whether he has made an assessment of the effects of reductions in local authority funding for libraries. Mr Vaizey: I would be delighted to visit that library, [86781] and I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for highlighting what cross-party consensus on libraries can achieve. It The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, is worth reminding the House that although we tend to Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): The focus on library closures, it is also worth focusing on the provision of library services is the responsibility of fact that more than 40 libraries are opening or being local authorities but my Department keeps in close refurbished across the country. touch with them. Indeed, my officials have met representatives from seven local authorities to discuss Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab): Libraries are their proposals. places of great benefit to our country, educationally, culturally and economically, but Government cuts to Kate Green: Trafford council is withdrawing its mobile local authority budgets have placed 600 of them at risk library service and axing 15 library staff, and it wants of closure. If they close, they will be lost to our communities volunteers to run Old Trafford library in my constituency. forever. What does the Minister believe are his full Does the Minister agree that the expertise of professionally responsibilities when it comes to protecting Britain’s qualified library staff is important in getting people libraries? reading and improving literacy and English language skills, particularly in the most disadvantaged communities? Mr Vaizey: I am sure that the House will join me in congratulating the hon. Gentleman on the award of his Mr Vaizey: Trafford council has also opened a new MBE for his distinguished military service. library in Urmston, but I certainly agree that the role of My responsibility for library services extends to England, professional librarians is incredibly important in the as it is a devolved matter in Wales, Scotland and Northern provision of library services. Ireland. I have a responsibility to superintend the library service, and local authorities have a statutory responsibility Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): My hon. Friend and I to provide a comprehensive and efficient library service. are privileged to represent Oxford constituencies, and Unlike the previous Government, we are not putting Oxford county council is managing to keep all 43 public that statutory duty under review. libraries open notwithstanding a difficult financial settlement. Is not the reasonable inference that some Women in Sport local authorities have elected to make deep cuts in front-line services simply to make a political point and 2. Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con): that it is perfectly possible, if local authorities put their What steps he is taking to increase the participation of minds to it, to keep libraries open? women in sport. [86782]

Mr Vaizey: My hon. Friend makes a valid point. The Minister for Sport and the Olympics (Hugh Robertson): Local authorities have challenging decisions to make, Sport England is investing £480 million in 46 national and my approach is to give them the space and time to governing bodies between 2009 and 2013 to grow and make those difficult proposals. Local authorities are sustain participation. This approach is entirely inclusive going about their provision differently but all have a and encourages opportunities for everybody to participate 907 Oral Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 908 in sport regardless of their gender. Sport England also The Minister for Sport and the Olympics (Hugh Robertson): funds the Women’s Sport and Fitness Foundation to The Government’s response to the Select Committee on provide specialist advice and support to national governing Culture, Media and Sport’s football governance inquiry bodies. sets out a number of recommendations for increasing supporter representation and ownership at football clubs. Tracey Crouch: I congratulate the Minister on all that In their response, the Government have challenged the he and his Department are doing to increase participation football authorities to determine the best way of achieving levels, but does he agree that while women’s sport accounts the right changes, and we will be a key partner in those for only 5% of all sports coverage, the profile of sports discussions. women will remain so low that not only will talented athletes not make it on to award lists, such as the BBC Tom Greatrex: I thank the Minister for that reply and sport’s personality of the year, but many of our best declare my interest as the founder of the Fulham Supporters role models will be totally anonymous, thus making it Trust, notwithstanding our result last night, which harder to inspire and encourage women and girls to demonstrates that we are not the only people who have participate in sport and physical activity? had a bad week in Europe. I am sure that he will be aware of the proposals published by Supporters Direct Hugh Robertson: Yes, I do agree with my hon. Friend. on football club licensing. Will he encourage the football One of the encouraging things is the opportunity that authorities to engage with Supporters Direct, in line next year’s London 2012 Olympics presents to showcase with his comments about the inquiry by the Culture, the talent that exists among women, as well as male Media and Sport Committee and his Government’s athletes. response to it, to ensure that supporters have a role in football governance in the future? Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab): But is not school sport the bedrock of participation, Hugh Robertson: Yes, I will certainly do that. I am and should it not be a priority? If so, why have the delighted that the premier league still funds Supporters Minister’s Government cut spending on school sports Direct after the events of last year. The football governance by 64%? Is that not sending the message that school reform strategy is about getting the key parts of the sport no longer matters? front end of the process right—the reform of the Football Association board, the link between the board and the Hugh Robertson: The first point is that, as the right council, and the new licensing system. As part of that hon. and learned Lady should know, this Department is licensing system, we expect those concerns to be addressed. not responsible for school sport, which is funded by the Department for Education. What my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has championed personally is a Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): I do school games competition that is intended to drive up not know whether the Minister is familiar with that participation across both genders. great football club AFC Bournemouth, which is due to enter the premier league in the next decade. Until that Ms Harman: The Minister talks about driving up happens, Bournemouth, along with other non-premier participation, but will he tell us how he will monitor league clubs, continues to struggle financially. What how much sport young people are doing in schools more can be done to encourage a greater distribution of when he has scrapped the school sports survey? As his wealth in English football? Government have cut the school sports partnership, it is even more important that we know what the effect on Hugh Robertson: The distribution of, broadly, the participation in sport is. [Interruption.] Is it not remarkable broadcast moneys that go into the premier league and that Ministers are sitting there saying, “It’s nothing to football league is, of course, a matter for those leagues. do with us”? They really should be making an impact However, we expect the governance of football to allow on Ministers in other Departments to ensure that they for a proper distribution of those moneys. I think support school sport across the whole of Government. everybody across the House is agreed that there is a considerable distance to go before that is achieved, but I Hugh Robertson: I am afraid the right hon. and hope that it will be as part of this process. learned Lady is mistaken. The policy responsibility for school sport lies with the Department for Education, Football Governance (Football Association) and she should know that all too well. This Department is playing its part by introducing a new school games competition. That has been extraordinarily successful, 4. John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): What recent discussions with 11,000 schools now signed up. We will also produce he has had with the Football Association on football a new measure for those aged 16 to 24—precisely the governance. [86784] point at which we take responsibility for young people— among whom participation has been falling year on The Minister for Sport and the Olympics (Hugh Robertson): year for most of the last 10 years. The Secretary of State and I continue to meet the Football Association, the Premier League and the Football Football Governance (Supporters) League collectively to hear their progress on the reforms that the Government have called for in their response 3. Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) to the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport’s (Lab/Co-op): What recent assessment he has made of football governance inquiry. The football authorities the potential role of supporters in football governance. have until the end of February to come forward with [R] [86783] their proposals. 909 Oral Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 910

John Mann: The Football Association is significantly Mr Hunt: The hon. Gentleman makes an important more enlightened than either UEFA or FIFA when it point. It is part of our commitment—and, indeed, his comes to tackling racism in football. Would the Minister party’s commitment—to make sure that next year benefits be prepared to meet the all-party group on anti-Semitism the whole country and not just big cities like London. and community groups such as Community Security We have announced that next year we will have the Trust, the Holocaust Educational Trust and Searchlight biggest ever campaign to boost the domestic tourism to listen to our concerns about what more the Government, industry, including a nationwide promotion of a 20.12% the FA and UEFA can do to tackle the potential for discount for hotel rooms booked in 2012. I urge him to racism at the Euro 2012 championship? encourage hotels and attractions in Halton to take part in that promotion, which is a big way to get people to Hugh Robertson: Yes. take a holiday at home, as there is so much to see here next year. Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): Will the football governance report that the Minister talks about include Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): I thank Ministers for football agents, because those parasites took £210 million their visits to Dover to promote the castle, the white out of the game in the last three years from the premiership cliffs and the fine view we have of France. Should it not alone? Just imagine how that money could be spent be a particular priority that we promote tourism in our within the game, including on football in schools, if it coastal towns? was used properly instead of lining the pockets of these spivs? Mr Hunt: Absolutely. There is the Olympic torch visit to Dover next year, and it is a way to ensure that many Hugh Robertson: Off the top of my head, I cannot other major coastal tourist attractions will get into not remember whether the Select Committee report includes just the national but the global spotlight next year. a specific element on agents. As part of the new licensing fee, however, that is exactly one of the issues that we Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): would expect to see addressed. Many tourists visiting this country earlier this month would have been horrified when they turned on their television sets in their hotel room only to find a highly Tourism paid public presenter advocate that British citizens should be taken out and shot in front their families. What does 5. Esther McVey (Wirral West) (Con): What plans he that say about the future of Britain and what kind of has to support the tourism industry in 2012. [86786] message does it send to the rest of the world?

The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media Mr Hunt: I do not think it says anything at all about and Sport (Mr Jeremy Hunt): Next year represents the our tourism industry. biggest opportunity in our lifetime to profile the British tourism industry, and we have announced the biggest Rural Broadband ever international and domestic tourism marketing campaign designed to attract an extra 4.5 million visitors 6. Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): What to the UK in the years that follow the Olympics. progress his Department has made on the roll-out of rural broadband; and if he will make a statement. Esther McVey: Continuing the sporting tourism theme, [86787] next year the Royal Liverpool golf club will welcome the women’s open golf championships with the first The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media ever women’s day, so we will be developing tourism and Sport (Mr Jeremy Hunt): Eight local authorities through our exceptional golf facilities while also ensuring have moved to the procurement stage for the roll-out of youth engagement and celebrating women’s success. I rural broadband. I will write to all local authorities this would like to extend an invitation to one of the Ministers week to tell them that as a condition of receiving public to come along. funding for their rural broadband programmes, we will need them to move to procurement by the middle of the Mr Hunt: I congratulate the Royal Liverpool golf next year and to have signed a contract for the roll-out club, and I would be delighted to attend—diary permitting. of broadband by the end of next year in order to make I agree with my hon. Friend that sport is a massive sure that we have the best superfast broadband in driver for tourism. Two million people come to this Europe by 2015. country every year to watch or play sport. I hope that sport in Liverpool will be helped by this week’s Julian Smith: North Yorkshire is making good progress announcement of a new local TV station for Liverpool, in its procurement process, but EU procurement rules on which I am sure my hon. Friend will be an early make it very slow, which is frustrating for many businesses honoured guest. and constituents. What message would my right hon. Friend give them? Will he commit to coming and launching Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): What is the Secretary of the north Yorkshire pilot once the procurement process State doing to support the tourism industry to attract is complete? more people to smaller conurbations like Halton, which has the excellent Norton Priory museum and the Catalyst Mr Hunt: I would love to, as I recognise that north science centre, which is currently struggling. What is he Yorkshire has gone further faster than many parts of doing to attract more people to the, shall we say, less the country and the £18 million grant that it received obvious tourist areas? has helped that. We have tried to make the European 911 Oral Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 912 regional development fund rules simpler to enable local Mr Vaizey: I thank the hon. Lady for giving me authorities to tap into them for their rural broadband notice of her question and for the good work she does programmes. I would certainly be happy to help my to highlight the issues for musicians coming into the hon. Friend and every local authority speed up the UK and for British musicians who wish to travel abroad. process of getting these contracts signed. My understanding is that those musicians applied for a tourism visa when they should have applied for an Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): May I urge the Secretary entertainment visa, which applies even if someone is of State to look very closely at his definition of rural? performing pro bono. I would happily take any Many areas that look urban, such as former mining recommendation she has to improve the website and constituencies, actually feel very rural in relation to pass it on to colleagues at the Home Office. I shall also broadband because businesses still need fast broadband ensure that it is discussed at the next arts and entertainment but, because of the contention rate, find it very difficult taskforce. to get a decent service. Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): Mr Hunt: The hon. Gentleman is right. Let me Will the Minister join me in congratulating the UK reassure him that our commitment is to 90% coverage Border Agency in processing 95% of all non-settlement of superfast broadband for the whole country. We talk applications within three weeks, while acknowledging about rural broadband because that is where there are that many applications are dealt with far faster than particular challenges, but we are not forgetting semi-rural that? areas. We want it to apply to the whole country and, indeed, we want our cities to go even further with a Mr Speaker: With particular reference to professional faster broadband offering, as announced by the Chancellor musicians, of course. in the autumn statement. Mr Vaizey: I would certainly endorse that work. UKBA Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): I commend the has a target of 90% and has achieved 95%, which Minister on this initiative but, as he explained, it still contributes to the vibrant live music scene we have in leaves perhaps one in 10 households and premises without this country. the prospect of faster broadband. What consideration has he given to the contribution that could be made by Mr Speaker: I call Kevin Brennan. He is not here. innovative wireless technologies, such as the WiBE—or Participation in Sport wireless broadband extender—designed by the British business Deltenna in Chippenham, to improving broadband using mobile spectrum networks in rural areas? 9. Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): What plans his Department has to increase participation Mr Hunt: My hon. Friend makes an important point. in sport. [86792] Wireless and mobile solutions will be very important in The Minister for Sport and the Olympics (Hugh Robertson): dealing with that final 10%. We are strongly encouraging Sport England is investing £480 million in 46 national local authorities, as part of their broadband plans, to governing bodies between 2009 and 2013 to grow and come up with a way of reaching that 10%, even if it is sustain participation. In addition, we have introduced not the same mechanism by which we reach the 90%. the new Places People Play lottery-funded legacy The kind of technologies he talks about might well have programme and will be launching a new sports participation an important role to play. strategy aimed at 16 to 25-year-olds in the new year, to ensure we create a real lasting sports legacy after London’s Work Visas (Musicians) games.

7. Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): What recent Damian Collins: Sportsmen and women need to have discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for confidence in the governing bodies of the competitions the Home Department on the system for granting work they play in. Will the Minister send a message to FIFA permits and visas to foreign professional musicians that following the resignation of Mr Havelange from performing at concerts in the UK. [86788] the International Olympic Committee, Sepp Blatter can and must allow the publication of the Zug court report The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, into the $100 million bribery case involving FIFA officials Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): Ihave and International Sport and Leisure—that is, ISL? had no such meetings but the arts sector, my officials and the UK Border Agency meet every quarter as part Hugh Robertson: I shall certainly do that, but I should of the arts and entertainment taskforce to have such warn my hon. Friend that I am not sure that FIFA pays discussions. a great deal of attention to what we say any more.

Kerry McCarthy: The Minister might be aware that Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab): The Minister on 6 December some Congolese musicians who had knows that one of the main reasons we won the Olympics been working with Damon Albarn and Oxfam on a was our promise on the participation rates, but the project were refused entry to the UK to perform at target of involving 2 million more people in sport and Rough Trade Records. I appreciate that there was some physical activity has been dropped. I have the greatest confusion about the type of visas they needed to apply respect for the Minister, but further to his earlier answer for and about the process, but can anything be done to on school sport, what discussions has he had with the make it easier? It is a valuable, worthwhile project, and Department for Education about the cuts in school it is a shame that they were not able to perform. sports and school sports co-ordinators? 913 Oral Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 914

Hugh Robertson: No one who is involved in sport Libraries wants to see money go out of sport, but the question completely overlooks the economic backdrop that sits 10. Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): What assessment behind that. If Opposition Front Benchers are seriously he has made of the potential effects on communities of going to say that the level of funding that has been the closure of local libraries. [86793] invested in school sport against an economic backdrop in which £120 million is paid out in debt interest payments every day can be maintained, they should tell us what The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, else in sport should be cut instead. I have not heard a Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): It is single constructive suggestion of that sort. very important that local authorities take into account the needs of their local communities when assessing Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Will the their comprehensive library provision. That is why I Minister welcome the National Football League’s efforts have written to all local authorities to remind them of to increase the amount of American football played in that. this country—not at the taxpayer’s expense? Also, what position in an American football team would he play? Chris Evans: What message does the Minister have for Caerphilly borough council, which wants to close Hugh Robertson: I think I should honestly say that Aberbargoed library in the face of opposition from that is slightly outside my area of competence, but I residents and local councillors who want to save that would of course welcome any efforts in that regard, vital community resource? particularly efforts better to educate Ministers. Mr Speaker: The fact that something is outside the Mr Vaizey: As the hon. Gentleman knows, the duty area of competence of a Minister has never stopped a to superintend the library service is devolved to the Minister before, but there we go. Welsh Government. What I would say to Caerphilly borough council, which I believe is led by Plaid Cymru Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): The person who launched although there is no overall control, is that I am delighted the school games was the Secretary of State for Culture, it is investing in its library service and that it has opened Olympics, Media and Sport—it was not the Department or refurbished six of its libraries. for Education. Ministers have been using the figure that one in five children are involved in inter-school competitive Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): sport, and they will know that that figure comes from Hunmanby library will stay open if volunteers man it, the PE and sport survey that is carried out in schools but will the Minister intervene to assist with at least a every year. That figure is measured on the basis of part-time library presence from North Yorkshire county children taking part in nine competitive sport events council to enable it to put a business plan in place in the against other schools in a school year. We know from interim? what the Under-Secretary of State for Education, the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Mr Vaizey: I would always encourage any local authority Loughton) said in a Westminster Hall debate that that to work with the local community on the provision of is not an ambitious target. How is the Minister going to community libraries and to provide the support of a measure the impact of the school games on increasing professional librarian behind the community library participation in competitive sport? Is the benchmark service. nine times in a school year or more? Hugh Robertson: Let me answer this in two parts. London Olympics First, a number of schools want to sign up, and I am delighted to say that we have got 11,000 schools signed 11. Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): What assessment up, which I am sure the hon. Gentleman would welcome. he has made of the potential legacy of the London 2012 On the part of the equation for which this Department Olympics for children and young people. [86796] is responsible—the cadre of people from 16 to 25—we will make an announcement in the new year. The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): I recently and Sport (Mr Jeremy Hunt): There is a cross-party visited the Desborough indoor bowling club, which has commitment to use the games next year to have a benefited from an investment via the landfill tax, and I lasting sporting legacy for young people. That will was pleased to see a large, enthusiastic and mainly partly be through the school games, which my hon. retired membership. At the other end of the age spectrum, Friend the Minister for Sport and the Olympics has what can the Department do to encourage the participation talked about, as well as through the extraordinary sports of retired people in sport? facilities that will be built next year and a new youth sport strategy that is designed to boost participation Hugh Robertson: The next round of whole sport among young people, which we will be announcing in plans will have a concentration of young people, particularly the new year. those aged between 16 and 25, but that is not exclusive. I probably ought to be slightly careful about how I say Julie Hilling: I saw first hand the real difference that a this but for sports such as bowls, which might appeal school sports partnership was making to the participation more to those at the other end of the spectrum, it would rates and, indeed, the performance of young people in be entirely within the remit of the new whole sport Bolton West. Now that it has gone, how will the Secretary plans for the bowls governing body to put in a plan that of State ensure that my constituents benefit from the drives up participation at that level. Olympics? 915 Oral Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 916

Mr Hunt: Some school sports partnerships did an Kate Green: Ministers are aware of the considerable excellent job but, overall, participation among young concern that Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs’ people fell under the last Government—it has fallen treatment of VAT on five-a-side league football is causing from 58% to 54% over the last four years, three of which businesses such as the Trafford soccer dome in my were under the last Government. That is why we are constituency. What steps can Ministers take to support looking at the whole business of how we reduce the this popular sport and ensure that it continues to thrive? drop-out rate among people leaving school, so that we can have more people who have sport as a habit for life, Mr Hunt: The hon. Lady is from a constituency with including in the hon. Lady’s constituency. fantastic sporting traditions. We want to do everything we can to get more young people playing sport next Commonwealth Games year of all years. If she supplies us with more details, we will happily make representations to the Treasury, although 12. Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) it is a very difficult climate in which to get concessions (PC): What recent discussions he has had with the on things such as VAT. organising committee for the 2014 Commonwealth games on disabled sports. [86797] T2. [86737] Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): Two of my constituents, Audrey Cole and Colin The Minister for Sport and the Olympics (Hugh Robertson): Maddever, live in Doddy Cross, where there is no The sports programme for the 2014 games is being broadband. Superfast broadband is being rolled out determined by the Glasgow organising committee in across Cornwall, but these constituents still have to use consultation with the Commonwealth Games Federation expensive dial-up, which is frustratingly slow, blocks and the International Paralympic Committee. their incoming calls and increases costs. Furthermore, there are many farmers in that area who have to file Jonathan Edwards: My constituent, Jemma Morris, is their VAT returns online but find that they are unable an aspiring paralympian in archery, and the county of to do so. What message of help does the Minister have Carmarthenshire has high hopes that Jemma will fly the for the 33% of people in South East Cornwall who flag for Wales next autumn. She will reach her sporting have no broadband access at the moment? prime in the Commonwealth games in 2014; however, there will be no archery competitions for disabled Mr Hunt: My hon. Friend makes an incredibly important sportspeople. Will the Minister raise the issue with the point very powerfully. There are still 250,000 homes in Commonwealth Games Federation so that disabled this country with no broadband access at all. We are archers are able to showcase their skills on the global absolutely committed to making sure that we deal with stage? that problem by the end of this Parliament, which is why we have announced very ambitious plans. Cornwall, Hugh Robertson: I do not know whether the hon. like the rest of the country, is being asked to submit Gentleman’s constituent is in the GB squad, but I a broadband plan that deals with all the broadband visited the paralympic archery squad at Lilleshall last “not spots” as well as providing superfast broadband to year, so I may have met her. The position with the 90% of its residents. I hope very much that at the next paralympic mix in the Commonwealth games is that election my hon. Friend will be able to go back to her four sports are necessarily included, and the local organising constituents and say that the problem has finally been committee is allowed to select another four. I suspect addressed. the problem may be that Glasgow has not selected archery. Clearly, since this is a devolved issue, my remit Tessa Jowell (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab): over the Glasgow organising committee is limited, but I Today the Indian Olympic Association meets to condemn will certainly raise the issue when I next see the Dow Chemical’s controversial sponsorship of the 2012 Commonwealth Games Federation. Olympic stadium wrap. Will the Secretary of State join me in reaffirming the Indian Olympic Association’s Mr Speaker: Well, the inquisitive appetite of colleagues view that a boycott of the Olympics would merely make in respect of substantive questions appears to have been Indian athletes the innocent victims of the ongoing exhausted. I call Mrs Sharon Hodgson. She is not here. controversy caused by the continued debate about liability We move on to topical questions. for the Bhopal gas disaster and ensuing contamination? However, have the Government carried out a risk assessment Topical Questions of Dow Chemical’s sponsorship of the 2012 stadium? If not, will he commit to doing so and sharing the results T1. [86736] Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): so that an agreed course of action on a cross-party basis If he will make a statement on his departmental can be taken to mitigate any assessed risk of the responsibilities. sponsorship?

The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media Mr Hunt: Of course I welcome what the Indian and Sport (Mr Jeremy Hunt): This week we announced Olympic Association has said about a boycott. As the the first cities that will be getting licences for local TV. right hon. Lady will know, boycotts are illegal under the They are Belfast, Birmingham, Brighton and Hove, Olympic charter. With the greatest respect to her, because Bristol, Cardiff, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Grimsby, Leeds, of the enormous role she has played in the 2012 project, Liverpool, London, Manchester, Newcastle, Norwich, she is a member of the Olympic board and shares some Nottingham, Oxford, Plymouth, Preston, Southampton responsibility for all the decisions that have been made. and Swansea. We hope to award a further 40 licences in We look to her to play a constructive role in resolving the following year. this difficult situation, not exacerbating it. 917 Oral Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 918

T3. [86738] Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) tourism for the London Olympics and the jubilee (Con): Two weeks ago Transparency International cut celebrations next year? In particular, has he had any its ties with FIFA. The corruption watchdog objected discussion with the Welsh Assembly on how we can to the lack of independence in FIFA’s new outside attract additional visitors to my area? governance committee and to the fact that its remit will not extend to allegations of past wrongdoing. What Mr Hunt: Because of the way the 2012 project has pressure will the Minister and the Football Association been constructed, with the progress of the torch relay exert so that we can shine a light on the serious across the whole country, including it spending a significant allegations of systemic corruption at FIFA both past amount of time in Wales, and because of the cultural and present? Olympiad, which is happening across the whole country, we are absolutely determined that next year will be a The Minister for Sport and the Olympics (Hugh Robertson): bumper year for tourism in all parts of the country. We We will do everything we can, both internationally through have a big domestic tourism marketing campaign, which our European counterparts and elsewhere, to ensure is fully supported by Visit Wales, and I hope that the that FIFA becomes what we all want it to be: a properly right hon. Gentleman will encourage businesses in his transparent and accountable body that is capable of constituency, which has some particularly beautiful scenery, fulfilling the remit it is supposed to have to govern the to take part in that promotion to encourage more global game. people to have a holiday at home next year.

T7. [86743] Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): It is T5. [86740] Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): In my some time since John Robb of Louder than War constituency, we are busy pioneering the “Stroud approached me about the problems musicians have Special” train, which is designed to take up the slack on when trying to get visas to tour the United States, and the route from London and to encourage people to we brought a delegation to see the Under-Secretary of come and benefit from Stroud’s hugely impressive State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, the environment, pubs and all the rest. Does my hon. hon. Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey), who has Friend agree that it is a good initiative, which certainly responsibility for culture. Will he update the House on justifies infrastructure expenditure? the progress being made in talking to the Americans about this and, in particular, whether we can persuade The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, them to look at reciprocal arrangements and adopt Olympics, Media and Sport (John Penrose): Of course, measures similar to those that we have here whereby we encourage any organisation—any local tourism organisers of big events can help to facilitate the visa body—to lay on the kind of facilities and product process? offerings that my hon. Friend describes. It is absolutely essential that we secure better local marketing and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, ownership of the local tourism visiting experience, and Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): Officials I am glad to hear that Stroud is leading the way. from my Department have had constructive discussions with the United States embassy, which has taken on Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): board our points, and those discussions continue. Obviously The Radio 1 programme “Introducing…in Scotland” the US will continue to want to implement its regulations, has helped launch the careers of fantastic Scottish but it has heard the hon. Lady’s concerns via my officials artists such as Paolo Nutini, Calvin Harris and Frightened and we are continuing a constructive dialogue with Rabbit, yet it is threatened with cancellation. Campaigners the US. are coming to London on Monday to deliver a petition to Radio 1, and the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, T4. [86739] Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): I very much Olympics, Media and Sport, the hon. Member for Wantage welcome my right hon. Friend’s announcement of local (Mr Vaizey) has kindly agreed to meet them, but does television and the greater media diversity that it will he agree that it is exactly the kind of programme that we bring and note with interest the impressive list of cities need in order to introduce new British music talent to involved. Crawley finds itself on the cusp of two the British public? television regions, so may I put in a bid for it to be considered as a future centre for local television? Mr Vaizey: I very much look forward to meeting the campaigners and to receiving the petition with the hon. Mr Hunt: I am sure that Crawley would be an excellent Gentleman. Of course, I am a strong supporter of new place for a local television station and that my hon. music on the radio; that is why I campaigned so vigorously Friend would make a very good contribution to it when in opposition to save Radio 6 Music. it happens. Our plans for superfast broadband, which we talked about earlier, mean that it will be possible to T6. [86741] Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): Many launch a local television station in Crawley with no constituents have contacted me with their concerns transmission costs by the end of this Parliament, so I about the increase in spending on the Olympics hope that he encourages local media groups in his opening ceremony. Will the Minister take this chance constituency to take advantage of it. just to explain the extra value that we will receive for that money? Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): Further to the Secretary of State’s earlier answer to the hon. Member Mr Hunt: With pleasure. We expect that 4 billion of for Wirral West (Esther McVey) on tourism, has he the world’s 7 billion people will watch the opening made any regional assessment of the number of visitors ceremony, which will be the biggest single opportunity likely to visit the UK regions as a result of inward in our lifetime to showcase this country, its history, its 919 Oral Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 920 culture and its tourism to the whole world. I want it to through both Houses so far? I can reassure him, as he be of great benefit in places such as the Peak district said, that protections for local residents and local residents and my hon. Friend’s constituency, and that is why I groups will be maintained as they are. went to the east midlands and had a very positive session with the local tourism industry on how it can Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab): If it is harness the amazing opportunities that we will have right to cut the school sports budget by £162 million, a next year. 60% cut, why is it right to double the budget for the opening and closing ceremonies of the Olympics from Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): When Lord Coe £40 million to £80 million? decided that Dow Chemical was a suitable ethical partner for the Olympics, was he aware that earlier this year, in Hugh Robertson: In a sense, the hon. Gentleman has May, it had been blacklisted by the Indian Ministry of answered his own question. The two figures are in no Agriculture for five years for bribing officials to get the way comparable. The amount of money that goes into chemical, Dursban, fast-tracked before the growing school sport—[Interruption.] I have to say to the right season—a chemical that has been banned in the United hon. and learned Member for Camberwell and Peckham States for some years because of its health risk to (Ms Harman) that even she might have worked out human beings? that £160 million each year is a great deal more than £40 million once. Mr Hunt: That is a question the hon. Gentleman will have to ask Lord Coe. Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): The deadline—[Interruption.] T8. [86744] Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): The Olympics are a real opportunity to boost tourism in the Mr Speaker: Order. I am sure that the House wants UK. Will my right hon. Friend say some more about to hear the question from Dr Thérèse Coffey. his plans to spread the benefits of tourism to, in particular, the north-west of England? Dr Coffey: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Tomorrow is the deadline for schools to register for the Get Set network, Mr Hunt: That is why next year we will have the part of the Olympic legacy that can cover every school biggest ever marketing campaign to encourage people in our land. Will the Minister encourage children, parents to take a holiday at home. It is designed to encourage and teachers to ensure that their schools are registered the whole UK not to take for granted what we have on and take full advantage of the values and benefits on our doorstep. I know that my hon. Friend has great offer? local stories, such as the Pendle witches, which he would like the whole country to find out more about, and next Hugh Robertson: I most certainly will. More than year is the moment to do so. 20,000 schools up and down the country have now signed up to the Get Set programme, and I absolutely Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): encourage every school across the country to do likewise. What discussions has the Olympics Minister had about It is also great news that another 11,000 schools have the security implications of the cuts to police funding signed up to the school games project, and I encourage and the changes to control orders, which will allow very many more to do that. dangerous people back into the capital in the months leading up to the games?

Hugh Robertson: We have had extensive consultations LEADER OF THE HOUSE with the Metropolitan police and all the security agencies about security for London 2012. The Metropolitan police assistant commissioner with responsibility for The Leader of the House was asked— that area, Chris Allison, gave a presentation to the E-petitions organising committee before the passage of the recent London Olympic and Paralympic Games (Amendment) 1. Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con): What Bill, and the Met has raised no such concerns. recent assessment he has made of the Government’s e-petitions website. [86674] Mr Don Foster (Bath) (LD): May I thank the ministerial team and the Opposition parties for their support for The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George my Live Music Bill, which passed through its entire Young): Since the launch of the site, more than 3.2 million Committee stage yesterday? There are, however, fears signatures have been submitted. The signatures and the among some residents associations that it will reduce debates that have stemmed from them have shown that protections against noise and antisocial behaviour. Will we are indeed building a successful bridge between the Minister confirm that that is not the case and that, people and Parliament. Last Wednesday, I gave evidence although we wish to see an explosion of live music in to the Procedure Committee on the e-petitions system. I small venues, we want to continue to protect residents look forward to reading the views of the Committee who live close to pubs and clubs? when it publishes its report.

John Penrose: May I join everybody in the House in Brandon Lewis: I thank the Leader of the House for congratulating my right hon. Friend and, indeed, his that answer. Will he outline how the Government are compatriot Lord Clement-Jones at the other end of the taking account of views in forming policy from the corridor, who have been instrumental in guiding the Bill e-petitions, particularly given the excellent news in 921 Oral Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 922 the autumn statement following the fantastic campaign The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of run by my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert the House of Commons (Mr David Heath): My right Halfon) on fair fuel prices? hon. Friend the Leader of the House has received no representations other than in the course of the Westminster Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Hall debate on the Bill of Rights, led by my hon. Friend Six petitions have gone through the 100,000 threshold, the Member for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming), of which four have been debated. The Hillsborough to which I responded. As I said then, although Members’ debate, one of the best that we have had this Parliament, correspondence may be subject to qualified privilege for obliged the Government to clarify their policy on the the purposes of the law of defamation, the House has documents that they held. My hon. Friend referred to never sought to assert that such correspondence is a the autumn statement following shortly on from the proceeding in Parliament. Therefore it is not protected debate on fuel, secured by my hon. Friend the Member under article 9 of the Bill of Rights. for Harlow (Robert Halfon). We have also had two debates on extradition and the Government have Stephen Phillips: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for undertaken to have a look at their policy on extradition. that answer. He will be aware of the recommendation of the Joint Committee on the draft Defamation Bill that correspondence between Members and their constituents Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): I should clearly be the subject of qualified privilege. It is joined the Leader of the House in giving evidence to the critical that our constituents can correspond with us Procedure Committee investigation into e-petitions and freely and frankly. I hope, therefore, that he can assure their short-term future. The Committee will shortly the House that the Government will bring forward produce a report on the future of e-petitions. Will the legislation in that regard. Leader of the House guarantee that any short-term proposals for e-petitions will not be imposed on the House without a debate and vote, to avoid the problems Mr Heath: I am grateful to my hon. and learned that we had in introducing e-petitions in the first place? Friend. The Government will examine that recommendation in making their response to the Joint Committee, of which he was a distinguished Member. I hope to update Sir George Young: It was a pleasure to give joint the House shortly on our related work on the draft evidence to the Procedure Committee last week with the parliamentary privilege Bill. hon. Lady. The Government would not want to impose any new arrangements on the House without going through the usual process of consultation. I await with Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I rather agree with interest, as I am sure she does, the outcome of the the hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Committee’s deliberations, when we will see its proposals Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) about parliamentary privilege about how we handle e-petitions in future. and Members’ correspondence. In the wider context, the concept of parliamentary privilege is in a bit of a mess. We are relying on rather antiquated concepts at Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): The Leader the moment. In the light of what has happened this of the House and you, Mr Speaker, will know that the year, when I believe that many witnesses, in giving big green bag on the back of your Chair is for citizens of evidence to two Select Committee, have lied to Parliament, this country to petition their Parliament to do something. I suggest that we now need a criminal offence of Given that precedent, should not the e-petitions initiative parliamentary perjury for when people lie to Parliament. be to Parliament, and not to the Government? Mr Heath: The courts have always recognised the Sir George Young: That question was put to me by right of each House of Parliament to regulate its own the Procedure Committee last week; my hon. Friend affairs. I accept that there are legitimate questions about might like to read the response that I gave. The coalition the House’s enforcement powers and the punishments Government made a commitment to introducing an available to it. It is right to look afresh at whether the e-petitions system. At the moment, it is run by the powers of each House are appropriate. That is part of Government and the moment a petition reaches 100,000 the work that we are doing to bring forward a draft Bill signatures, I transfer it to the Backbench Business on parliamentary privilege. If the hon. Gentleman is a Committee, which considers whether the petition should little patient, he will see shortly that we are considering have an opportunity for debate. That can take place that matter. only if the petition is then sponsored by a Member of Parliament. We have a system unlike the previous one, Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): Further to an which ended at No. 10 and went nowhere. The system answer that I received in September, in which the House that we now have ensures that the petition does reach of Commons Commission said that it costs the public Parliament once it has gone through the threshold. purse a further £1.5 million for us to come back for the two-week September sitting, is it not time that we looked carefully at the programme of sittings of the Parliamentary Privilege House so that we are not constrained—

2. Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) Mr Speaker: Order. I do not wish to be unkind to the (Con): What representations he has received on hon. Lady. I am sure that her question is of great whether correspondence between hon. Members and importance to her and possibly to others, but it suffers their constituents is subject to parliamentary privilege. from the disadvantage of bearing absolutely no relation [86675] to the question on the Order Paper. 923 Oral Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 924

Allocation of Business Hours scrutiny in the other place, it is right for us to wait until it has finished its deliberations, listen to what it has to 3. John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): How many hours say and then, in due course, address it in debate in the of business he plans to allocate to (a) general debates normal way. on subjects determined by the Government and (b) Pre-legislative Scrutiny Back-Bench or private Members’ business in January and February 2012. [86676] 4. Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): What plans he has for future pre-legislative scrutiny of The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of Government bills. [86677] the House of Commons (Mr David Heath): My right The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of hon. Friend the Leader of the House will announce the the House of Commons (Mr David Heath): The Government business for January and February 2012 in the usual recognise the value that pre-legislative scrutiny can add way, during business questions on a Thursday. and are committed to seeing more measures published in draft. This week the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet John Mann: It is obvious to all of us that this coalition Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean has run out of steam when it comes to legislation and (Mr Harper), published for pre-legislative scrutiny draft everything else. Given that many Back Benchers on measures on the recall of MPs. In addition, so far this both sides of the House have good and sensible proposals Session we have published draft measures on Lords for legislation, why does the Leader of the House, reform, financial services, defamation, the detention of instead of bed blocking debating time, not give us the terrorist suspects, individual electoral registration and opportunity in January and February to bring forward electoral administration, civil aviation and a groceries that legislation? code adjudicator. The Government expect to publish further measures in draft this Session, including on Mr Heath: What a load of nonsense. I am afraid that parliamentary privilege. I do not agree. Over the past two weeks, the House has had the opportunity to debate important and topical Diana Johnson: As my hon. Friends the Members for issues, including the economy, Europe and immigration. Wallasey (Ms Eagle) and for Bassetlaw (John Mann) This afternoon, thanks to the Government’s establishment have indicated, the Government’s legislative programme of the Backbench Business Committee, the House will has ground to a halt. Would it not be sensible for us to debate financial education in schools, an issue that has spend some time scrutinising the draft Detention of received more than 100,000 signatures on the Government’s Terrorist Suspects (Temporary Extensions) Bills now, e-petition website. I believe that this Government have rather than wait and debate them in a hurry when we placed Parliament back at the centre of our national are faced with an emergency? life. Mr Heath: We will be bringing forward further measures, and if the hon. Lady is patient— Mr Speaker: Second time lucky, Anne Main. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): When? Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): Thank you for your indulgence, Mr Speaker. Again, September sittings Mr Heath: And even if the hon. Gentleman could be will cost £1.5 million. Is it not time that the House just a little patient, they may find that they hear news to moved its sittings so as not to cost the public purse an their advantage later today. extra £1.5 million? Mr Speaker: Expecting patience from the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) might be a triumph of Mr Heath: There is a slight sense of déjà vu about optimism over reality, but I leave that question for the that question. This is a matter that the hon. Lady ought House to consider. to put to the Procedure Committee, which is currently looking at the calendar of the House of Commons. She will be able to present her case to that Committee, and HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION we look forward to its report in due course. The hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): Despite this being Ross, representing the House of Commons Commission, the longest Session in post-war history, the Government’s was asked— legislative programme is in a shambles. While we twiddle Apprentices our thumbs in the Commons, the Lords are taking apart the Government’s ill-conceived, badly drafted 6. Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): How many and mean-spirited welfare reforms. Just yesterday, the apprentices are employed in the House of Commons Government’s policy of imposing a bedroom tax was service. [86679] defeated by an all-party alliance that included a former Conservative Secretary of State for Social Security. Is it John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross): not time that this Government listened to reason, dropped There are currently no apprentices employed by the the more punitive parts of the Welfare Reform Bill and House service, although two are employed by Parliamentary instead built a genuine consensus to make real progress Information and Communications Technology as software on welfare reform? developer apprentices. The last group of three apprentices in the Parliamentary Estates Directorate completed their Mr Heath: I make no apology for Bills receiving training in 2010 and have subsequently been appointed proper scrutiny in both Houses of Parliament, and we to permanent posts. Catering and Retail Services has are committed to that. When legislation is receiving that offered a two-year apprentice chef scheme, but there 925 Oral Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 926 have so far been no successful applicants. The House The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of service is keen to employ more apprentices and continues the House of Commons (Mr David Heath): Since taking to take steps to do so. office, this Government have made substantial progress on implementing the coalition’s commitments on Robert Halfon: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Will parliamentary reform, which have helped to make the he take further steps to work with the charity New Deal House more effective, transparent and accountable. of the Mind and support and encourage other MPs to Measures have included establishing the Backbench employ apprentices in their own offices? Business Committee, launching the e-petitions system and transferring responsibility for Members’ pay and John Thurso: I am most grateful to my hon. Friend pensions out of our hands and into those of the independent for that suggestion. Employment by MPs is not a matter regulator. for the Commission, of course, but certainly the House will do everything it can to assist in such efforts. I am Working with the Deputy Prime Minister and the sure that as he has put the matter on the record, Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend colleagues will be aware of his very sensible suggestion. the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), we have also piloted a public reading stage for the Protection of Freedoms Bill, published proposals to allow the recall LEADER OF THE HOUSE of Members of Parliament and started work to establish a commission on the West Lothian question. We will The Leader of the House was asked— also shortly bring forward proposals on how we will Bills (Third Reading) proceed with the draft parliamentary privilege Bill.

7. Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Whether he Harriett Baldwin: There certainly has been a great has considered bringing forward proposals for the deal of parliamentary reform. One commitment in the Third Reading of a Bill in the House of Commons to coalition agreement was to establish the West Lothian be taken after its consideration by the House of Lords. commission. A written ministerial statement on 8 September [86680] said that that would happen in the weeks following October, but certainly by the end of the year, so exactly The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of when will we get that commission? the House of Commons (Mr David Heath): Any Bill first published in this House must currently pass through all Mr Heath: I should first congratulate the hon. Lady, its stages, including Third Reading, before it is sent to who since her election has demonstrated her commitment the House of Lords. We are aware of the suggestions to this issue, not least during the passage of her private made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey Member’s Bill, the Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill. and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), but the Government As she correctly says, the coalition programme for have no plans at present to bring forward proposals to government set out our commitment to establishing a change the current arrangements. commission to consider the West Lothian question, and my hon. Friend the Minister who has responsibility for Dr Huppert: Currently, Members in this House are political and constitutional reform updated the House forced to decide on a Bill when it is not in its final form, in a written statement in September. The Government and in many cases Government amendments have been intend to publish the make-up and terms of reference of promised that we have yet to see. Does the Deputy the commission shortly. Leader of the House agree that the primacy of this House would be strengthened if our Third Readings Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): The Deputy always happened last, and will he consider how that Leader of the House obviously could not list all the could be brought about? Government’s parliamentary reform achievements because that would take up a great deal of parliamentary time. Mr Heath: I understand the principle behind my hon. One that he missed was the commitment to introduce Friend’s question. No Bill can become law until this a Business of the House Committee. When will that House has agreed to all its provisions, including any happen, and what process will the House undertake to amendments proposed by the House of Lords to a Bill scrutinise it? Will he define “shortly” if he uses that first published in this House. I am not sure that I word in his response? immediately see the value that would be added by a further general debate on a Bill, but I advise my hon. Mr Heath: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Friend and my right hon. Friend the Member for Time simply does not permit us to set out all the Bermondsey and Old Southwark that if they wish to important reforms that this Government have introduced pursue the matter, it should perhaps be considered by to the House, and there is much still to be done. One of the Procedure Committee and by the other House. those things is the establishment of the House Business Parliamentary Reform Committee. We are clearly committed to doing that during the third year of this Parliament, and are happy 8. Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): to ensure that that is the case. We are looking forward to What progress he has made on implementing the introducing proposals after we have listened to those on coalition agreement commitments on parliamentary both sides of the House who have an interest in the reform. [86682] matter. 927 15 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 928

Business of the House saying that he was fully signed up to it. A few hours later, as his own party erupted in outrage, he let it be 11.32 am known that he was “bitterly disappointed” by it. He claimed that he told the Prime Minister that his actions Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): Will the Leader of were bad for Britain. the House give us the business for next week and a bit of As the Prime Minister came to the House to make a next year? statement, his Deputy got into a gigantic sulk, went to the gym and then straight on to Sky News to moan The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George about his own Government before drowning his sorrows Young): The business for the week commencing 19 December at the Ministry of Sound. The Business Secretary was will be: apparently furious with the situation. The Scottish Secretary MONDAY 19 DECEMBER—General debate on apprenticeships. has publicly denounced the Prime Minister’s use of the TUESDAY 20 DECEMBER—Pre-recess Adjournment debate. veto and the Energy Secretary has claimed on the Floor The format has been specified by the Backbench Business of the House that in Europe Committee. “if you are not in the room, you are on the menu.” Colleagues will also wish to be reminded that the On Tuesday, all Liberal Democrat Ministers and Whips, House will meet at 11.30 am on 20 December. including the Deputy Leader of the House, and five The business for the week commencing 9 January will members of the Cabinet refused to support a motion include: congratulating their own Prime Minister. The Ministerial Code says: MONDAY 9JANUARY—The House will not be sitting. “The principle of Collective Responsibility…requires that Ministers TUESDAY 10 JANUARY—Second Reading of the Local should be able to express their views frankly in the expectation Government Finance Bill. that they can argue freely in private while maintaining a united WEDNESDAY 11 JANUARY—Opposition day [un-allotted front when decisions have been reached.” day]. There will be a debate on an Opposition motion. What a joke. Is it not the case that in this Government, Subject to be announced. the Liberal Democrats have got it completely the wrong THURSDAY 12 JANUARY—Motion relating to a statutory way round? They argue in public, but in private they code of practice for pub companies, followed by motion will not stand up to the Tories no matter how much the relating to parliamentary representation. Prime Minister humiliates them. Will the Leader of the House now confirm that the Prime Minister does not The subjects for these debates were nominated by the need to get a doormat for Christmas because he already Backbench Business Committee. has one? I should also like to inform the House that the While the Deputy Prime Minister hosts a European business in Westminster Hall for 12 January will be: re-engagement event for business, the Prime Minister is THURSDAY 12 JANUARY—Debate on the Home Affairs busy fomenting opposition to the deal to appease his Committee report on “The Landscape of Policing”. Eurosceptic Back Benchers. Will the Leader of the May I take this opportunity to wish you, Mr Speaker, House tell us when the Prime Minister is going to the hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle) and all right amend the Ministerial Code so that it more accurately hon. and hon. Members a very happy Christmas and reflects the cynically choreographed “licensed dissent” new year, and thank all those who have kept the House which is becoming more obvious by the day? running smoothly during the year, including the Clerks, Unemployment has risen this week to well over the Officers and staff of the House, the Doorkeepers 2.5 million, which is the highest level for 17 years and and the cleaners? A merry Christmas to all with peace includes more than 1 million young people, who are and good will. now in the growing dole queue. The Employment Secretary spent yesterday saying that the figures had stabilised, Ms Eagle: Many of us are incredibly relieved that we but the Prime Minister told his party last night that have finally spotted a Government Bill arriving in the “2012 will be the worst since the 1980s” House, even if we have to wait until next year to see it. May I take this opportunity—the last business questions On Tuesday, the Justice Secretary admitted that Britain before Christmas—to echo the Leader of the House’s was facing Christmas wishes? I wish you, Mr Speaker, your Deputies, “a long period of youth unemployment.” the staff of the House, the Leader and Deputy Leader Will the Leader of the House tell us why the Government of the House, and all Members and their staff a very have resigned themselves to a long period of high youth happy Christmas and contented new year. unemployment and a wasted generation? Instead of The House rises on Tuesday. The Government will no planning for this, would the Government not be better doubt be tempted to slip out as much bad news as they doing everything they can to stop it by adopting Labour’s can in the last hours when they think that no one is five-point plan for jobs and growth, which would give 1 looking. With 27 written ministerial statements on today’s million unemployed young people some hope for an Order Paper alone, can the Leader of the House assure otherwise bleak 2012? Should not the voters of Feltham me that any announcement of significance will be made and Heston reject this do-nothing Tory pessimism and as an oral statement to this House? vote for Labour’s excellent candidate in today’s by-election? Last week, I said that the Prime Minister was isolated As Christmas approaches, many of us are racking in Europe, but I did not know then quite how alone he our brains to think of appropriate gifts for friends and would end up. Last Friday, the Deputy Prime Minister family, but with the Cabinet it is very simple: flip flops was apparently firmly behind the Prime Minister’s for the Deputy Prime Minister; a shredder to be shared premature use of the veto at the European Council, between the Business Secretary and the Minister of 929 Business of the House15 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 930

State at the Cabinet Office; and an espresso machine for Government’s welfare reforms was 10,000. The figures the Justice Secretary so that he does not doze off in the cover only one month, but they do show some signs of Chamber again. stabilisation in the market. I was having trouble thinking of ideas for the Prime The hon. Lady referred to today’s by-election. I hope Minister until I discovered the Eton college online gift that voters in Feltham will use it as an opportunity to shop, where I found a very appropriate gift for him: reveal whether or not they approve of the stand taken “decision dice”. For those who are not familiar with the by the Prime Minister last week, and I hope that, if they finer gifts available from the Eton college catalogue, the endorse it, they will go out and vote for the Conservative dice are described as: candidate. “The ideal gift for the indecisive or those who just can’t make The hon. Lady said that her Christmas wish was to up their minds.” know the date of the Queen’s Speech. I admire her They are presented in a stylish chrome box engraved bravery, because it was not until 5.30 pm on Tuesday with the college coat of arms. For just £14.75, the dice this week that the House was informed of the business are the ideal present for a Prime Minister whose U-turns for the following day, Wednesday, when the Opposition this year have included: the sale of England’s forests; held a one-day debate. The Opposition give the House cuts to school sports; anonymity for those accused of less than a day’s notice, and the hon. Lady wants me to rape and the scrapping of the office of the chief coroner. give the House months’ notice of the date of the Queen’s I know that the Leader of the House with his usual Speech. gallantry will be trying to think of a gift for me. May I Observing who is sitting next to the hon. Lady, let me tell him that all I want from him for Christmas is the end on this note. Like the leader of her party, the date of the Queen’s Speech? shadow Leader of the House has a sibling who is also a Member of Parliament, and whom I welcome to the Sir George Young: I am not sure that there was a lot Front Bench. According to an interview with the shadow there about the business of the House, but let us have a Leader of the House and her sister, published earlier go. this year, The hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle) welcomed—I “they haven’t had a… row in decades.” think—the announcement that a Bill would be given its The hon. Member for Garston and Halewood (Maria Second Reading after the recess. I remind her that the Eagle) said House is not simply a legislation factory. We are not “we do know how to be with each other. It doesn’t mean you can’t going to make the mistake that the last Government disagree, but you know—you’re sisters”. made of imposing too many ill-considered, ill-drafted Given that admirable expression of family affection, Bills on the House. The Chamber has other things to I wonder whether the hon. Member for Wallasey might do: the Chamber is here to hold the Government be able to give the leader of her party some advice on to account, to debate matters of national interest, and how to manage relationships. to represent the views of Members’ constituents, and we are determined that it should have adequate time in which to do those things. Several hon. Members rose— The hon. Lady spoke of written statements being Mr Speaker: Following those stellar performances rushed out before the recess. It was precisely in order to from the shadow Leader of the House and the Leader avoid making the mistakes made by the last Government of the House, may I gently remind colleagues that we and to avoid a last-minute rush that 27 written statements are focusing on the business of the House for next week were issued today, days before the House rises. and the beginning of 2012? As for our being isolated in Europe, on my way to the House I just happened to see a headline in The Independent Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): May we which read “EU 26 fight to stop pact unravelling”. have an urgent debate on the activities of parking In response to the hon. Lady’s lengthy thesis on enforcement companies—particularly Citywatch and relationships, I simply make the point that the relationship Securak—which could be likened to demanding money between the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime with menaces, racketeering and extortion? May I make Minister is stronger than the relationship between Tony a final plea on behalf of a constituent? Toyin Lawal’s Blair and the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, who car was pinched by Citywatch from a car park that it were members of the same party. [Interruption.] Several was not even licensed to patrol, and it wants eight grand autobiographies chronicle the weak relationship between to give it back to her. I want the police to go round and Tony Blair and the then Chancellor of the Exchequer. get her car back off these criminals. The unemployment position has indeed stabilised, as the hon. Lady will see if she reads what was said in the Sir George Young: My hon. Friend’s constituent is House yesterday by the Minister of State, Department fortunate to have such a proactive Member of Parliament for Work and Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member championing her interests in the House. He might know for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling). It can be found that legislation has now gone through making it illegal in column 844 of Hansard. My right hon. Friend to clamp cars on private space. I think that it comes into told us that in the last month employment had risen by effect in March next year. 38,000 and unemployment by 16,000, that the youth unemployment figure had remained static, that the Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): There jobseeker’s allowance claimant count had risen by 3,000, is only one full year before the Government have to and that the number of people who had stopped claiming introduce proposals on the establishment of a House incapacity benefit and income support as a result of the business committee. Will the Leader of the House therefore 931 Business of the House15 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 932

[Natascha Engel] all Labour-led local authorities so that they know that their anti-car policies are putting local shops out of consider early next year establishing a time-limited Select business? Committee like the Wright Committee, on which he and I served, to consider proposals for what such a House Sir George Young: I am grateful to my right hon. business committee would look like? It could inform the Friend, who might have seen the written ministerial Government and the House on how to move forward. statement accompanying the publication of the Portas review earlier this week. There were several Sir George Young: I am grateful to the hon. Lady, recommendations, some of which were aimed at local who reminds the House of the commitment in the authorities, particularly the one to which he referred, coalition agreement to establish such a Committee by and others of which were aimed at the Government. the third year. She has proposed one way of implementing The Government will respond in the spring to the that commitment. There might be other ways, but I can recommendations, and in the meantime I shall ensure assure her that I am actively considering how we deliver that the Secretary of State for Communities and Local on that commitment, and at the appropriate time I Government is aware of my right hon. Friend’s strong would very much like to involve her in those discussions. views about the disincentive effect that high parking charges can have on the prosperity of high street shops. Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): Christmas is a Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): time when we think about the most vulnerable not only Has the right hon. Gentleman seen early-day motion 2527, in the United Kingdom but abroad. Although Syria is standing in my name and those of several other hon. not Libya, does my right hon. Friend agree that we need Members, which expresses revulsion at the murder by an urgent debate to discuss Syria and to ensure the end Israeli soldiers of a peaceful demonstrator, Mustafa of the killing of thousands of innocent men, women Tamimi, at whose head they fired point-blank a tear and children? gas canister, and following which they manhandled his grieving sister? Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s concern. I cannot promise a debate before the House [That this House expresses its revulsion at the deliberate rises, although there is the pre-Christmas Adjournment killing by Israeli soldiers of Mustafa Tamimi, aged 28 debate on Tuesday. I shall pass on his concerns, however, years, while the Palestinian was taking part in a peaceful which are widely shared on both sides of the House. We demonstration at Nabi Saleh on Friday 9 December have made clear our view that the President should step 2011; notes that an Israeli soldier specifically and deliberately aside in the light of what is going on and allow a aimed a gas canister at Mustafa Tamimi’s head, which hit democratic Government to take over. I shall pass on his him point-blank inflicting horrific injuries; further notes concerns to my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary. that these Israeli soldiers blocked access to an ambulance, pushed around Mustafa Tamimi’s sister, who was deeply distressed by her brother’s appalling injuries, and laughed Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Will and gloated at her; and calls for international action, the Leader of the House arrange for an early debate rather than mild remonstrances, to prevent further Israeli before the House rises on the importance of buying murder of innocent Palestinians.] goods made in the United Kingdom? There are about 10 days of shopping before Christmas and we have a Is he aware that at his funeral, Israeli soldiers fired £30 billion trade deficit with China. I have conducted tear gas and sewerage through hoses at mourners? Will an experiment that shows that it is possible to buy he ask the Foreign Secretary to tell the Israelis that they presents made only in the United Kingdom, or, at a have to stop this sadistic thuggery, which no doubt they push, Britain and Europe. May we have a campaign and will resume again tomorrow? debate to get people to buy things made here, because it Sir George Young: I am grateful to the right hon. provides employment for young people and creates Gentleman for his question and for raising that issue. jobs? He may know that there was a debate in Westminster Hall yesterday on Government policy on Israel, which Sir George Young: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, would have been an appropriate opportunity to raise who has already launched such a campaign with his the matter. Given that he might have been unable to be questions. I hope that all those tuned in will do what there, I shall of course pass on his concern to the they can to promote jobs and prosperity by, where Foreign Secretary and ask him whether, if appropriate, possible, buying goods made in the UK. On the trade representations might be made to the Israeli ambassador. deficit with China, he will know that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and many Cabinet members Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): This House welcomed have made repeated visits to China to promote inward the Arab spring. May we have a debate in the new year investment and to help companies based in this country on the Arab winter? I am referring to the Bedouin of to win export orders from China, so we hope to make Palestine-Israel, 30,000 of whom, or thereabouts, face progress in reducing the trade deficit between the two the prospect of being removed in the new year from countries. lands that they have occupied from before the formation of the state of Israel. This is ethnic cleansing and Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): May we have apartheid. Let us debate the Arab winter. a debate on the Portas report into our towns and cities, particularly recommendation 9, which states that in-town Sir George Young: The answer I give my hon. Friend car-parking charges are too high, act as a deterrent to may be the same as the one I have just given to the right in-town shopping and should be abolished? Unless that hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald debate is soon, will he circulate that recommendation to Kaufman). There was an opportunity to raise the issue 933 Business of the House15 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 934 in the House of Commons yesterday, in Westminster end economy, but about the extent to which some local Hall. We have arranged fairly regular debates on north authorities are using parking charges to plug the black Africa, the middle east and Afghanistan. I hope that hole in their finances? there will be other opportunities in the new year to have similar debates, which will provide my hon. Friend a Sir George Young: I am a strong believer in local platform to raise the legitimate concerns that he has just democracy, and I believe that it is for Westminster city brought to the attention of the House. council to take decisions about the appropriate level of parking charges. I am sure that the hon. Lady will make Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): May we debate the her own representations to the city council, although I Russian winter? I am not referring to the weather; I am would be surprised if it did anything that was ultra referring to last week’s elections, which were profoundly vires. However, at the end of the day, this is a matter for corrupt. All who went to witness the elections say that Westminster city council, not the Government. there was massive vote-rigging. In Chechnya, for instance, 95% of the vote came in for Mr Putin’s party, despite Mr Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): the fact that everybody noticed massive vote-rigging. Can my right hon. Friend find time for a debate on the May I also suggest gently to the right hon. Gentleman regulation of service charges for residents of private that he take this matter up with his colleagues? There retirement accommodation who are on fixed incomes, are Members of this House who sit on the Council of such as those of Wright Court in Nantwich, in my Europe in the same grouping as members of Mr Putin’s constituency? Often they are not properly consulted by party, and there is no reason why we should hide away the providers of such accommodation about either the from the fact that there has been corruption in Russia. services that they require or the services that they can We need to ensure proper democracy. afford. Sir George Young: As a former Housing Minister, I Sir George Young: The hon. Gentleman will have am aware of the problems facing many leaseholders, seen the protests in Russia over the weekend about the who find themselves confronted with service charges conduct of the election. I am not sure whether this gives that they believe to be unreasonable. There are a number him any satisfaction, but I understand that President of protections in legislation, but my hon. Friend may Putin has ordered a review into how the elections were know that there is also the Leasehold Advisory Service— conducted, although one should perhaps not set too which I set up when I was Housing Minister—a specialist much store by that. I shall draw the Foreign Secretary’s body sponsored by the Department for Communities attention to the concern—I suspect shared by those on and Local Government that can perhaps advise his both sides of the House—about the conduct of the constituents in dealing with the challenges that face elections and, again, see whether appropriate representations them. might be made to the Russian ambassador. Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): Small May we have a debate about the impact of the disastrous and medium-sized businesses in my constituency have consequences of the Prime Minister’s decision to isolate very much welcomed the Chancellor’s announcement the UK from the rest of Europe on the ambitions of the of the £20 billion national loan guarantee scheme to get devolved nations? The Leader of the House and other cheaper loans to businesses. That is particularly important hon. Members refer to “separatists”, but are not the in parts of the country such as Cornwall, where there only real separatists in this House the little Englander are many seasonal businesses involved in, for example, separatists on the Conservative Back Benches? tourism. May we have a debate on this excellent new scheme and find out more? Sir George Young: I think that that charge might be made against the hon. Gentleman. One might think that his was a separatist party, if I might say so. However, Sir George Young: I hope all of us can remind businesses we had such a debate on Tuesday, on an Opposition in our constituencies that £20 billion, which is a huge motion, when he would have had the opportunity to sum of money, is available through the national loan raise the matter, although as I said a moment ago, it is guarantee scheme. These are loans that the Government by no means clear that we are isolated in Europe. will stand behind; therefore, the banks can offer them at a lower rate of interest to companies in my hon. Friend’s Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con): Last constituency. We all have a role to play in promoting the Monday the Design Commission launched a report scheme and in enabling businesses to take advantage of called “Restarting Britain”, which is about the importance it and go ahead with investment projects that they of design in the UK. Given the importance of design in might otherwise have been unable to afford. securing growth, particularly in partnership with manufacturing, will the Leader of the House give some Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): Westminster Government time for a debate on design and its importance city council’s proposed new evening and weekend parking for our economy? charges have aroused universal condemnation, with genuine fears about the impact on job losses in the west end Sir George Young: As my hon. Friend may know economy. The Secretary of State for Transport has gone from the Localism Act 2011, design is one of the key on record as saying that she believes that such charges issues that we think should be taken into account, and are a fund-raising measure, in which case they would be I thank him for his well designed question. I cannot ultra vires. May we have an urgent debate, not only promise an early debate on the issue, but when the about the impact of such parking charges on the west House returns, he might like to apply for a debate in 935 Business of the House15 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 936

[Sir George Young] Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who adds weight to the representations made a few Westminster Hall or see whether the Backbench Business moments ago for a debate on that important report, Committee can allocate a debate on this important which is also something that the Backbench Business issue. Committee might like to consider if representations are made. The report was published alongside our own Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): research and showed that some high streets are weathering May we have a debate on the behaviour of the energy the downturn—he referred to one in his constituency— companies? My constituent, Mrs Larkin, from Hyde, whereas others have seen 40% less retail spending. We has seen her monthly tariff rise from £65 to £79—an will respond to the recommendations in due course— increase of more than a fifth—despite having always probably in the spring—but in the meantime, I agree been in credit, and the energy company will not take that the House might like to debate the issue. any lesser amount as a more reasonable compromise. Given these times that we are in, when living standards Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): I thank the Leader are being squeezed, surely the energy companies should of the House for his assiduous answering of my questions be behaving more responsibly. over 2011. I want to ask him for one more urgent debate or urgent statement on behalf of my constituent Sheila Sir George Young: One of the initiatives that the Wither, who is disabled and has to pay £1.20 for a Government took a few weeks ago with the energy return journey on Ring and Ride, whereas the able-bodied companies was to make it easier for consumers to shop over-60s can travel free by bus. Centro has consulted, around and get a better supplier. That is an option that but Sheila tells me that she agreed to the slight charge the hon. Gentleman’s constituent may like to reflect on. only because she feared losing the service. The Department In the meantime, however, I will pass on his concern to for Transport cannot intervene. Will the Leader of the my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy House do the right thing so that people with disabilities and Climate Change and see whether he can play any can travel free, just like their able-bodied counterparts? role in resolving the issue that he has raised. Sir George Young: I am flattered by the hon. Lady’s Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): May we please confidence that the Leader of the House can succeed have a statement updating the House on when the where the Department for Transport has apparently driving test centre in Bury is likely to reopen? The failed. I will, of course, make appropriate inquiries to centre was damaged owing to the ingress of water last see whether we can help the hon. Lady’s constituent. Christmas. In the summer, driving instructors and their pupils, who were being greatly inconvenienced by the Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): May closure, were told that the centre would be reopened we please have an early debate on value for money in this year, but it is clear that this will not now happen. the Metropolitan police? It has emerged that only for its most senior staff—those on salaries of between £80,000 Sir George Young: I understand that the delay was and £260,000—the Metropolitan police has paid just caused by structural issues that came to light at a late under £70,000 for private health insurance. It is hard to stage. Work is expected to commence in January, and I justify that money, which could be spent on providing understand that it is hoped that testing at the Bury constables to fight crime on the front line. driving centre will resume in February 2012. Sir George Young: My hon. Friend will know that the Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ ultimate decision rests with the Metropolitan Police Co-op): Given that the Leader of the House seems to Authority, but I agree with my hon. Friend’s message have some time to play with, may we have a debate in that, at a time of downward pressure on public expenditure Government time on the landscape for Government and the need to preserve resources for the front line, this support for carbon capture and storage? The inability issue should perhaps be given careful scrutiny before it of the Chancellor, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury is decided to carry on with it. and the Energy Secretary to make clear how much of the £1 billion previously allocated will now be available Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): following the announcement in the autumn statement May we have a debate on the effectiveness of the Health is causing uncertainty in the industry. We need to get and Safety Executive? A recent report highlighted that ahead with this if we are to maximise the export potential approximately 1,500 people die in work-related accidents of that crucial industry. every year but that the Health and Safety Executive investigates only one in 19 cases. Will the Leader of the Sir George Young: This issue was raised at Energy House seek clarification of those figures and, if they are and Climate Change questions relatively recently, when correct, what more will the Government do to protect it was confirmed that the £1 billion is still available for people at their workplace? suitable schemes. Sir George Young: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): May I reiterate the for drawing attention to a quite impressive statistic on call for a debate on the Portas report? In my constituency the numbers investigated and the total numbers reported. of Aberconwy, the town of Llandudno is still doing I will raise the matter with the appropriate Secretary of comparatively well, as the main retail centre for north State and ask him to write to the hon. Gentleman. Wales, but other towns, such as Llanrwst and Penmaenmawr, are seeing a decline in the retail sector, Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Most of my constituents which might be combated by adopting some of the in Dover and Deal work in small and medium-sized proposals in the Portas report. enterprises. Will the Leader of the House find time for a 937 Business of the House15 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 938 debate on how to help SMEs expand and on what the answers to DCMS questions about it. Will the Leader Government are doing for those enterprises to encourage of the House make a statement on who is going to be more jobs and money? accountable for answering questions on this subject in future? Sir George Young: There was an opportunity in the debate on the autumn statement to put in the shop Sir George Young: That sounds a little like unfinished window some of the schemes that the Government have business from the question and answer session that we initiated. I remind my hon. Friend of the £1 billion have just had. I caught the end of DCMS questions and business finance partnership for investing in exactly the I thought that my right hon. and hon. Friends were type of businesses to which he refers, but through answering questions with their usual competence and non-bank channels. That might be an appropriate avenue accuracy. I will, however, draw the hon. Gentleman’s for my hon. Friend to explore for directing funds to comments to the attention of my right hon. Friend the mid-sized businesses in his constituency. The process of Secretary of State to see whether there is anything he allocating those funds will begin early in the new year. wishes to add to what he said a few moments ago.

Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): Now that the Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): A very important Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill has been scrutinised matter for many Members is the law criminalising assisted by both the Select Committee on Business, Innovation suicide. Bearing in mind the expectation of a campaign and Skills and the Select Committee on Environment, to try to change this law, will my right hon. Friend Food and Rural Affairs, is it not time that it was ensure that Members have an opportunity to express brought before the House so that this measure, which is their views on this issue early in the new year? very popular with the public, can become law? Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s Sir George Young: As the hon. Lady rightly says, this concern. I think that this issue was debated during Bill has had consideration in draft and it was a popular proceedings on a private Member’s Bill during the last measure welcomed on both sides of the House. There Parliament, although I am not sure whether we have will be a second Session of this Parliament, and the had a debate on it in this Parliament. It sounds to me an Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill is a strong candidate admirable subject for a debate on which strong views for consideration as part of it. are held on both sides. I suggest that my hon. Friend presents himself to the Backbench Business Committee Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): May we have a debate to put in a bid. I think he will find support on both sides early next year on social care and paying for the costs of of the House in seeking consideration of that important care homes? We have been promised a White Paper in matter. the spring, but it appears that this is going to be no more than a progress report and will not contain substantive Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): Can we have a debate policy decisions. It is sometimes argued that it is difficult about how commitments made on the Floor of the to establish cross-party agreement on this issue, but if House by the Prime Minister to Back Benchers are we were to have a debate, we could see whether there adhered to by Ministers? On 7 November, I asked the was cross-party agreement on the funding of social care Prime Minister: and the cost of care homes. As co-chair of the all-party “If the eurozone continues to fail to deal with the crisis, what group on carers, I very much hope that this issue can be actions will the Prime Minister take to protect the interests of the resolved before I leave Parliament. At the present rate UK?” of progress, however, I will be contesting a number At the end of his answer, he said: more elections in Banbury before this matter is resolved. “If he wants to discuss privately with a Treasury Minister the elements of any plan, he is at liberty to do so.”—[Official Report, Sir George Young: Regardless of whether the problem 7 November 2011; Vol. 535, c. 39-40.] is solved, I hope my hon. Friend will continue to fight a I took up that invitation and wrote to the Chancellor on large number elections in Banbury. He will know that 8 November, but I have had no reply, even though we one of the first actions we took was to establish the are about to go into recess and this is a very important Dilnot report, which reported in July. There is a matter. I am concerned about whether this is going to commitment to publish a White Paper in the spring, be a broken promise by the Prime Minister—or, worse which will outline the Government’s response to the still, that it means that the Government have no plan to important issues. There have been a number of debates deal with the eurozone crisis. on this important subject, but I would welcome a further one. We inherited a situation in which there were lots of Sir George Young: My right hon. Friend the Prime White Papers but no action was taken during 13 years. Minister made a statement to the House on Monday and answered questions for almost two hours. There Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): Can we have a statement was adequate opportunity for the hon. Gentleman and, from the Leader of the House—or whoever he delegates indeed, others to press him on the matter. The Prime it to—on how we can hold the Government to account Minister answered questions on Monday, and I cannot over participation in school sport? We put questions to believe that there is any uncertainty left about where the the Secretary of State at DCMS Question Time this Government stand on this matter. morning, but he refused to answer any about how we are going to monitor participation at school age. The Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con): This week I Secretary of State has put £11 million into school attended the screening of “The Iron Lady” and was games: it was announced by him and it is on his disturbed by the way in which the film portrayed its Department’s website, so it is not unreasonable to expect subject. Can we therefore have a debate on respect, 939 Business of the House15 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 940

[Mr Rob Wilson] still be sitting more days than in the first two years of the preceding Parliament, so there can be no suggestion good manners and good taste, as I found the film—although that we are slacking. brilliantly acted—to be disrespectful to a Member of this Parliament? Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): With over 90% of its shop units occupied and 100% of the units in Sir George Young: Unlike my hon. Friend, I have not the Newlands shopping centre full for Christmas, Kettering’s had the benefit of seeing the film, although I know a town centre is weathering the economic storm better number of hon. Members saw it earlier this week. There than most. May I join the calls for a debate in Government were conflicting views about it. Some found it to be a time on the Portas report into Britain’s high streets good film; others, obviously like my hon. Friend, found before the Government publish their response, so that bits of it to be distasteful. I would welcome a debate, the Government can be informed of Members’ views but I think Ministers should be cautious about expressing and opinions? views that might be seen to be a form of censorship of films produced by independent producers. Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for reinforcing a suggestion that was made earlier, and I Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): The Nagoya am pleased to hear about the prosperity of the shopping protocol on access and benefit sharing was designed to centre in Kettering. He is a member of the Backbench take millions of people in the world out of poverty and Business Committee and is probably better placed than to release new medicines and products on to the market I am to organise a debate on high street shops between for the benefit of humanity. The Government signed now and the time when the Government respond. I that protocol at the convention on biodiversity at Nagoya hope he will therefore look sympathetically on colleagues in 2010, but it has yet to be ratified. Will the Leader of who come to him with such a request, in view of the the House look into this as a matter of urgency, as statement he has just made. ratification is vital if we are to get the protocol into force? Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Can we have a statement from the Leader of the House next week on Sir George Young: I am very happy to raise that an important issue? The Government have refused until matter with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State now to say who would take over if the Prime Minister at DEFRA and to get a response to the hon. Gentleman were incapacitated, and after last week’s performance before the House rises. some of us would be very worried if it were the Deputy Prime Minister, in case he was in a sulk. Will the Leader of the House tell us who would take over? Would it be Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): Metal theft is a the Deputy Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary or scourge across the entire country and yesterday my hon. perhaps Mrs Bone? Friend the Member for Dudley South (Chris Kelly) and I met the Minister responsible at the Home Office, Lord Henley, and found much agreement with the provisions Sir George Young: I think Mrs Bone might be towards in the Bill promoted by the hon. Member for Hyndburn the bottom of the list of possible successors, admirable (Graham Jones), which has widespread cross-party support. though her qualities of leadership might be. My hon. Will my right hon. Friend ask the Home Secretary for a Friend has asked me this question before and I refer statement on this subject as a matter of urgency when him to the answer I gave on that earlier occasion. the House returns in January? Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): Given the media headlines yesterday on young people’s Sir George Young: I think I am right in saying that unemployment, it is easy to forget that young people there was an exchange on metal theft during Home aged 18 to 24 have experienced high unemployment as a Office questions on Monday. I can confirm that we are percentage of the population since 2006—for many considering a range of measures, which include banning years now. It is obviously a structural issue, so may we cash payments, supporting scrap metal dealers in identifying have a debate on how we can help young people’s stolen metal and seeing how we can make it more aspirations? I hope that we could debate in a non-partisan difficult to steal such types of metals. We are also way measures such as those incorporated into the youth working with the Association of Chief Police Officers contract and take into account the cross-party report and the British Transport police have set up a new unit, on the future jobs fund published by the Select Committee but I will pass on my hon. Friend’s suggestion that we on Work and Pensions. reconsider the private Member’s Bill to see whether we can make swift progress. Sir George Young: Some of those issues were touched on in yesterday’s debate. We all have a role to play in Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): tackling youth unemployment in our constituencies by Will the Leader of the House explain to me why the drawing to the attention of potential employers that House is returning on Tuesday 10 January? It seems to element of the youth contract that gives employers a me that Monday 9 January is the day that we should subsidy of £2,250 a year, to cover the national insurance come back. contributions, if they employ somebody aged between 18 and 24 who is on the Work programme. We can all Sir George Young: The House agreed to come back publicise that scheme and encourage employers to take on 10 January in a motion that was put to the House advantage of it, thereby playing a role in reducing youth last month. That date has been agreed. The House will unemployment in our constituencies. 941 Business of the House15 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 942

Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): the measures the Government are taking to tackle In December 2005, the then Government applied the unemployment and promote prosperity in the areas we influence referred to by the shadow Leader of the represent. House to negotiate away £7 billion-worth of 1984 EU rebate in return for some illusory promises on common Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): Last Friday, I agricultural policy reform. Six years on, would it be visited the Alternative school in Barnoldswick and met appropriate to have a short debate on which of those head teacher Kirsty-Anne Pugh and the staff there. The promises resulted in action? I suggest that it need only school provides education for a number of young people be a short debate, since there has been very little action. who, for one reason or another, have not succeeded in mainstream education, and I feel that it has real potential Sir George Young: My hon. Friend reminds the House to apply in future to become a free school. May we that the previous Government surrendered a very valuable therefore have a debate on free schools and how they rebate some time ago. We want a substantial reduction are fostering diversity, fairness and aspiration in our in the size of the CAP, with a higher proportion of CAP education system? funds for the cost-effective delivery of public goods, Sir George Young: I would welcome such a debate and we want a fair deal for our farmers and for taxpayers and I am grateful for what my hon. Friend has said. within a smaller budget. We hope to continue to deliver Half of the first 24 free schools are located in the most environmental public goods through an ambitious agri- deprived 30% of areas in the country. I was interested to environment programme. We will press on with our hear what my hon. Friend had to say about that school agenda of getting a square deal for this country in CAP wanting to become an academy, and I welcome that, reform. but he also reminds the House of the potential of our education reforms to help not just children in mainstream Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): schools but those in special schools, who need every Given recent revelations about exam boards and in light single piece of help they can get. of information that I have obtained that shows that exam boards have been allowed to increase their charges Jessica Lee (Erewash) (Con): At this time of year, I to maintained schools by more than 10% a year for each know that the thoughts of the entire House will be with of the past five years, may we have a debate about what British armed forces serving in Afghanistan and elsewhere has gone wrong with the exam board system? May we around the world. As one of a number of MPs who also have an investigation into who knew what and recently visited Camp Bastion, it is certainly at the when, and who is responsible for denigrating our exam forefront of my mind. In light of that and as a gesture system that badly? of seasonal good will, will my right hon. Friend consider allowing a debate in this House to update us on operations Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend in Afghanistan and the welfare of British troops? for that question. There is concern, particularly in the light of recent reports, about what is happening. I think Sir George Young: My hon. Friend speaks for the that I am right to say that today one of the Select whole House in reminding us of the sacrifice that our Committees is taking evidence on that very subject; and armed forces have made and the fact they will continue we await its report. My right hon. Friend the Secretary to work over Christmas. May I suggest that she comes of State for Education has asked Ofqual to investigate to the House on Monday for Defence questions, where some of the allegations and to report back. It is crucial she might have the opportunity to convey directly to that we restore the credibility of the exam system and Defence Ministers her appreciation of the armed forces that is what my right hon. Friend wants to do. and to get an authoritative response from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State? Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con): In my role In the Harrogate district, there are nearly 8,000 small as chair of the enterprise zone group and from talking businesses employing about 70,000 people. Please may to businesses in tourism, engineering and energy across we have a debate on small businesses and the measures Great Yarmouth, I can see clearly that among SMEs the Government are taking to support them? In particular, and individuals there is a real aspiration for growth and I am thinking about the cut in small business corporation development in their businesses—it is almost tangible. tax and the extension of the rate relief holiday. I have Bearing that in mind, as well as projects such as the seed started businesses and worked in small businesses and I enterprise investment scheme and others that have been know that those measures will be very helpful. May we mentioned today, may I echo colleagues’ and hon. Friends’ please treat this as a matter of urgency, because small earlier words about the importance of a debate in businesses are the engines of growth in our economy Government time on business and what the Government and we must do all we can to help them thrive? are doing further to highlight the great opportunities for businesses in our country? Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for reminding the House of some of the initiatives that Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Government have taken to help small businesses. He for highlighting some of the initiatives we have already could also have referred to the changes we have made to taken to help small businesses, and I was interested to the enterprise investment scheme and venture capital hear about his experience. I cannot promise an immediate trust regimes to increase the flow of capital. We have debate, but I am sure that when the House returns it will also launched the new seed enterprise investment schemes want to debate the economy, giving him a platform to to encourage investment in start-up companies. As I talk about the schemes that have already been introduced said a moment ago, we all have a role to play in drawing and the further steps he would encourage the Government to the attention of employers in our constituencies to take in order to make more progress in his constituency. 943 Business of the House 15 DECEMBER 2011 944

Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): I wrote in June to the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. Backbench Business Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), because Network Rail was missing eight out of 10 of its targets. In November, the Office of Rail Regulation said that its Parliamentary Standards Act 2009 projections showed that Network Rail would fail to meet many of the targets that had been reset for it. The Mr Speaker: It may be for the convenience of the latest report from the ORR said: House to know that the Backbench Business Committee “Train performance continued to deteriorate”. has recommended that the second of our two debates That is having a massive impact on my commuters, as should last for at least three hours, which means that 60% of delays have been attributed to it. When can we this first debate should finish no later than 3 pm. It may have a statement? Network Rail is being monitored still also be for the convenience of the House to know that I for failing so many targets. May we have an urgent have selected the amendment to the motion in the name statement on its performance in the new year? of the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb).

Sir George Young: I am sorry to hear about the problems that my hon. Friend’s constituents face because 12.23 pm of the failures of Network Rail, which has a somewhat Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con): I beg to move, unique governance structure that makes it difficult to That this House approves the recommendations of the First hold it to account. I will share her concerns with my Report from the Members’ Expenses Committee on the Operation right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport. of the Parliamentary Standards Act 2009, HC 1484. My hon. Friend will know that additional funds were It is a pleasure to open the debate. I do not intend to announced in the autumn statement to help railway detain the House for too long, as there has been a lot of infrastructure. I hope that some of that might filter debate on this subject. I welcome this opportunity from through to her constituency and reduce some of the the Backbench Business Committee to present the findings problems she has mentioned. of our very thorough and carefully conducted review of the Parliamentary Standards Act 2009. The Committee Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): May we have a debate on Members’ Expenses was tasked with reviewing the on Saif Gaddafi and the London School of Economics operation of the Act to work out what were its aims—what given that the university refused to divulge information was intended by Parliament—and whether those aims as to the circumstances in which he was awarded his were being fulfilled, and to make any recommendations PhD, despite freedom of information requests? Will the that were felt necessary. Leader of the House speak to the Minister with responsibility for higher education and urge him to call I am delighted that the House has the opportunity to on the LSE to publish what really went on in this debate this issue and I thank hon. Members on both disgraceful episode of taking blood money for PhDs? sides of the House for their support and input during the process of constructing the report. I thank in particular Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s my fellow members on the Committee. We worked very deep concern, but I am not sure that I can comment on hard in very busy circumstances to try to put together a individual information requests. I do not know whether report that truly reflected the evidence we received. he has approached the Information Commissioner’s Hon. Members will be aware that in many cases when Office. He has a right of complaint to that office and one is on a Committee one has to pull back one’s from there to the first-tier tribunal. In general, when a personal preferences to ensure that what is delivered is request is made for the release of the personal information fair and balanced and truly reflects the evidence and of others under the Freedom of Information Act, such information provided. I thank the Chair of the Backbench information can be released only if that would be in Business Committee for making it possible to bring compliance with the provisions of the Data Protection these issues to the House in a non-confrontational Act. We are looking at the FOI Act as part of post-legislative environment in which we can talk about matters that scrutiny and I can only suggest that my hon. Friend relate to the House and, primarily, to Back Benchers. pursues the avenues I have just touched on. This is a good forum in which to do that. The party leaders and the House in general deserve Mr Speaker: I thank the Leader of the House and some recognition for the initiation and passing of the reciprocate his good wishes to me. I take this opportunity Parliamentary Standards Act in 2009 and the amending to express good wishes for a merry Christmas and a Act in 2010. The House clearly decided to get rid of the happy new year to all colleagues and to all who serve old discredited system, to have independent regulation the House. of Members’ expenses and to have that level of remuneration set independently. It also decided clearly that it wanted there to be more accountability for that body and these things than there had been in the past. I thank in particular the former Leader of the House, the right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman), for stating very clearly what the intentions of the Act were prior to its enactment in 2009. I thank also the shadow Leader of the House at that time, the current Leader of the House and the former shadow Leader of the House in the current Parliament for being entirely consistent in their presentation 945 Parliamentary Standards Act 200915 DECEMBER 2011 Parliamentary Standards Act 2009 946 of the aims and objectives behind the legislation and for Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): I want to put on being persistent in trying to ensure that those aims and record my appreciation of the front-line staff of IPSA, objectives were met. who have to work a system that is not fit for purpose. In Contrary to most media reports, the review that I addition to there being costs to Members of Parliament present on behalf of the Committee is not particularly and their staff, the National Audit Office believes that controversial. It is completely in keeping with the aims in 38% of cases the cost of processing a claim is higher of the Act, as they were laid out. There are seven fairly than the amount for which the claim is being made. Will clear aims about, for example, value for money, my hon. Friend confirm that? accountability, not deterring Members from making claims, being open about what is going on—the Adam Afriyie: That is a fascinating statistic. We had a transparency side of things—and not creating a system session in which we looked in particular at value for that is unfair for Members who do not have independent money, and that message came through loud and clear. means or who do not have families. We were very Anyone in the House with a background in business or mindful of those objectives when we conducted the in a medium-sized organisation that runs an expenses review and I highly recommend that hon. Members system will recognise that something needs to be looked read the first section of the report, which runs through at if the cost of processing a large minority of the the history of payments to MPs. That section also runs claims is higher than the value of the claims themselves. through each of the Act’s aims and analyses the extent Some of the recommendations are very much directed to which they are currently being met. at helping IPSA to move to a system that is less expensive to operate and in which taxpayers’ resources are being Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): spent as they would wish: on activities such as supporting My hon. Friend has thanked various people. Will he democracy and ensuring that constituents are serviced, accept my thanks and those of many colleagues for all rather than supporting unnecessary bureaucracy. the work he has put into this report? This is an extremely controversial matter and he has shown great leadership Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): What would and sacrifice in doing all he has done. the hon. Gentleman say to the argument that the public might well see it as rather self-serving by MPs if his cost-saving proposals had the effect of there being less Adam Afriyie: I thank my hon. Friend. If I could, I scrutiny of the money that they spend? Would not the would probably flush up at this moment, but luckily public, in the wake of the scandal, be particularly hon. Members would not know if I had. concerned about that? The objective of the review and its recommendations was to make sure that the aims of the Act, on which the Adam Afriyie: That is absolutely right. The right hon. majority of the House agreed, were being met in reality. Gentleman could have been a member of the Committee, Let me dispel a couple of the misleading ideas that are because that was exactly the attitude adopted by every bouncing around about the report before I go through member throughout. We asked ourselves, “Can we, its recommendations so that the House is fully aware of with our recommendations, improve the transparency what we might be accepting or putting over to the and the accountability to the public beyond what is Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority a bit being offered under the current regime?” That was later. exactly the direction of travel and I urge the right hon. Gentleman to have a good look through the Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): I, too, congratulate 19 recommendations, because he will see that we seek to my hon. Friend on the hard work that he and his address that issue. Committee have done over the past few weeks. During the expenses scandal, issues that came up included not Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- only the misappropriation of public funds by a minority op): As a member of the Committee, I add my thanks of Members in the House but the cost of politics. Could to the hon. Gentleman for all the work that he has done. my hon. Friend set out whether his recommendations Does he agree that it is unfortunate that some of the would drive up or drive down the cost of politics? media reporting has perhaps given the impression that the Committee was making recommendations for Adam Afriyie: That is one of the key issues that we something that would be less transparent, when nothing looked at. If Members go through the recommendations—I could be further from the truth? We want to see more will run through a few of them in a moment—they will transparency, better value for the taxpayer and independence find that their primary motivation is to find ways of in setting pay, allowances and expenses for MPs. reducing the costs of bureaucracy for the taxpayer and to achieve better value for money. At the moment, there Adam Afriyie: The hon. Lady makes the point very is a huge burden on Members because of the unnecessarily well. Those who actually read the report will see that long time that it takes to navigate the expenses system, that is exactly what we were attempting to achieve. I and that places a cost burden on our constituents—the think that we achieve it elegantly in our recommendations taxpayers. It also takes Members, and their staff, away to IPSA on how to improve the way it operates, and from serving their constituents and performing the functions we achieve it in quite a moderate fashion in the that they were elected to perform. My hon. Friend the recommendations that the Government may want to Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) hit the nail take up in the months and years to come. on the head with his remarks, because at the forefront of our minds was the question, “What recommendations Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): I echo can we make that will reduce the overall costs and the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester ensure that the system is still accountable?” (Bob Russell) about anything that we say here not being 947 Parliamentary Standards Act 200915 DECEMBER 2011 Parliamentary Standards Act 2009 948

[Sir Peter Bottomley] not work, so we recommend that the annual publication is searchable and easily accessible to the public so that derogatory about IPSA staff, who face the same problems they can make sensible comparisons from year to year, we do. I draw the attention of my hon. Friend the rather than misleading ones drawn from the bi-monthly Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) to the answers in publications. annex 1, which show that four out of five MPs think that IPSA is not effective in helping us to do our job. I Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): There are tried to ring IPSA this morning, because I see that many helpful suggestions in the report, not only on how 99 times out of 100 it answers the phone within 60 seconds. IPSA can pursue matters in a most cost-effective way I started calling at 9 o’clock; it is now half-past 12. That but particularly on the issue of transparency, which is is three and a half hours. It is a bit like the train crucial. I wholeheartedly endorse what the hon. Gentleman operating company that said, “No trains this morning says about real-time publication and making it easier were late because we didn’t run any.” IPSA will not for the public to search. I am also delighted to see that answer the phone before 1 o’clock, and then we discover the Committee has recommended to IPSA that the that the person we want is at lunch. If the amendment is underlying receipts should also be published so that carried—I am not sure whether it should be—will my anybody can see all the evidence, obviously with credit hon. Friend try to persuade IPSA to pay attention to card details redacted for security. That is essential. the detail of the report? Does IPSA have to be the only Adam Afriyie: I thank the hon. Lady. The whole public service that for half the day is not available to thrust of the report was to make sure that there is value somebody who wants to ring it? for money for the taxpayer and that transparency is enhanced and improved. However, our primary aim, Adam Afriyie: That is another point very well made. I which we reaffirm in recommendation 1, is that we want hope that the direction of travel in the recommendations the independent determination of the payments system will precipitate such an outcome when IPSA reflects on for MPs’ costs and independent regulation to continue, them. and to continue to be robust. Let me dispel myth No. 1. I draw everyone’s attention to the survey in annex 1, Nothing in the recommendations seeks to undermine on page 66, which contains some telling statistics. We the independence of IPSA and the power of the regulatory conducted a brief survey towards the end of the inquiry function performed by that outside body. That was to ensure that we were picking up contemporary, rather paramount in what we were doing. The Act was right in than historical, points of view of Members of Parliament. that intention, and it should remain, which is why we There are some striking figures. For example, 81% of reaffirmed it in recommendation 1. MPs do not believe that the board of IPSA has been Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Many effective in supporting MPs in conducting their duties. of us very much admire the hon. Gentleman’s work in Even if the intention was to be supportive, it is quite this field. We all feel very exposed. We all have an telling that over 80% of MPs do not think that it is. individual relationship with IPSA. Being able to share Another fascinating statistic is that 93% of MPs are in a debate such as this is very useful, but I constantly subsidising their work here. That is a contemporary feel that we need a parliamentary association that can figure from two or three weeks ago. act for Members of Parliament across the Benches when these very important issues about how we best Bob Russell: Does my hon. Friend know of any other fulfil our functions come up. profession or occupation—perhaps the world of journalism? —where 93% of the work force are subsidising the work Adam Afriyie: That is an interesting point. that they do? Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): I chair the liaison committee with IPSA, which includes Members Adam Afriyie: It is incredibly unlikely. As I say, 93% from all parties, and know that it can be a deeply are subsidising their work to some degree—some, about frustrating experience. We do our best, but one of the one in 10, to the tune of over £10,000 a year. One of the problems we have had is trying to convince IPSA that main reasons cited, by 83% of MPs, is that they are its primary motivation must be to allow MPs to do their trying to protect their reputation. The bi-monthly job and have a system that is not bureaucratic, does not publication cycle allows for misleading comparisons. allow fraud or error and, above all, saves taxpayers’ The report calls for more transparency—perhaps we money. That is why a central recommendation of the could publish in real time. However, the misleading report is that there should be an independent cost-benefit bi-monthly publication routine means that MPs are analysis of whether a flat-rate, taxable allowance, so trying to protect their reputation, which is the thing that there could be no fraud, error or detailed administrative most valuable to them. Let us not think that that is a costs, would save taxpayers’ money. selfish act; it is an act that works to protect our democracy. If individual MPs are constantly being lambasted in Adam Afriyie: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention their local media for making legitimate claims but having and for his work on the Committee. I think that together false comparisons made, that undermines democracy we came to a very moderate view that will, if the overall and harms the reputation of Parliament. That is recommendations are accepted, we hope move the whole why one of our recommendations is that IPSA should thing forward. become a lot more transparent in its publications. Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): Does my hon. We make a recommendation about annual publications. Friend agree that the key message that must come out At the moment, it is incredibly difficult for the public to of today’s debate and go to the Front Bench as well as see what is going on. They have to print out one page to IPSA is, as my hon. Friend the Member for and then another, and try to compare them. That does Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) has just said, that IPSA’s 949 Parliamentary Standards Act 200915 DECEMBER 2011 Parliamentary Standards Act 2009 950 primary duty must be to ensure that we can do our job, happen. However, we should be able to separate those and the plain fact is that many of us find it has become two functions within the legislation, and I urge the an obstacle to our doing that? That is why the legislation Government—there is no need to answer this now—to needs to be changed. Does he also agree that it is make headway and look at how we might facilitate that extremely important that these recommendations are while ensuring that the regulatory role is entirely not kicked into the long grass, and does he share my independent of the House. hope that Front Benchers will do nothing to obstruct this early implementation, which is clearly sensible? Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD): As a member of the Committee, I would like to put on the record my Adam Afriyie: That is another point well made. I will thanks to my hon. Friend for his patience in trying to tackle the point made by the hon. Member for Huddersfield reconcile the views of the Committee. On the point he is (Mr Sheerman) first and then move on to deal with that making, in addition to the separation of IPSA’s regulatory made by my hon. Friend. and administrative functions, was not another stark If we think about the rest of society and the work we factor presented to the Committee the extraordinarily do as MPs—this is not a sob story, but I am sure that it expensive way IPSA administered a relatively small will reported as such—we will realise that every other number of transactions and the fact that many other body has a pressure group, a trade association, a trade organisations, whether inside the House of Commons union or a communications or public relations company or elsewhere, could do that for much better value of working for them. We want our great British democracy money for the taxpayer? to be an icon of honesty, transparency and Bob Russell: Tesco, for instance. straightforwardness around the world, so it is curious that Parliament appears to be the only organisation that Adam Afriyie: My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol does not have a similar function. IPSA, which is a small West (Stephen Williams) was incredibly helpful during organisation, has two or three people dealing with its the Committee’s deliberations, for which I thank him. communications, but in Parliament there is no one to We all have strong views on these matters, some of give the other side of the story. That is not a which will be very different, so I thank him in particular recommendation of the report, but simply my own because we all moderated our views somewhat to look observation to back up what the hon. Gentleman said. at the evidence and see where it pointed us. We came to a good conclusion on how the system can be become Mr Sheerman: The trouble is that the three main more efficient. I should also point out that there have parties in the House tend to be represented by the been arguments from the press again, and unfortunately Whips, whose view of what goes on here is very different from elsewhere, suggesting that somehow the report to that of most Back Benchers, so the call that I would wants the House to regain control of expenses. That is like the hon. Gentleman to make for a parliamentary utter nonsense. There is nothing in the report that seeks association might be what we need. to do that. If there is any lack of clarity, I am happy to tidy it up or answer any questions. All the recommendations, Adam Afriyie: The hon. Gentleman makes his point other than 2 and 3, are for IPSA. It has the power to well. It is not in the report, but I accept it. accept or reject them. We hope that it will accept them, To return to the point made by my right hon. Friend but it has the power. There is nothing in the report that the Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie)—[Interruption.] alters the relationship. If anything, one or two of the Have I just promoted him? recommendations seek to increase the distance between Parliament and the regulator and urge IPSA to be more Sir Peter Bottomley: He should be right hon. transparent.

Adam Afriyie: Indeed he should. Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): I have a fairly straightforward question. Does the hon. Gentleman The report contains two pretty uncontroversial expect Sir Ian Kennedy and IPSA to respond publicly recommendations, and again this brings me to the second to the Committee’s recommendations? misrepresentation. The first recommendation, which is for the Government, is that the primary duty of the Adam Afriyie: The amendment to the motion makes independent regulator and its administration should be that point and proposes that IPSA should address the to support MPs to perform their duties cost-effectively report in its annual review, and I have no objection to and efficiently. The Committee on Standards in Public that and hope that it will respond. It seems to have Life and the constitutional historians we spoke to indicated that it will respond at some point, which recommended that, as virtually every body in the world would be great. The House will await that respond and has that kind of line in their legislation. There is no time then take a view on it, but it is for IPSA to decide limit on that, so we recommend that the Government whether to implement these cost-effective measures or should at some point get around to doing that, and I reject them. urge them to do so. IPSA is unique in being both the regulator and Alison Seabeck: Is not part of the problem, and part administrator of an expenses system. The second of the frustration that Members of the House feel with recommendation is that the law should be updated to IPSA, the fact that we do not get responses from it? I enable the separation of those two functions. We are have written to Sir Ian Kennedy on a number of occasions not saying that the administration function should definitely but have yet to receive a reply signed by him. I would come to the House of Commons. We say nothing of the like a public reassurance from IPSA that it will respond sort. We are not going to recreate the old Fees Office, thoughtfully to the recommendations of what is an which would be absolute madness, so that will not excellent piece of work by the Committee. 951 Parliamentary Standards Act 200915 DECEMBER 2011 Parliamentary Standards Act 2009 952

Adam Afriyie: Again, that is a perfect observation. In such an administrative role, because the IT systems and the survey that was conducted, MPs were asked on how infrastructure are already in place, but that is not our many occasions in the last six months IPSA lost paperwork recommendation. It would be misleading to suggest that they had submitted in support of a claim. Some that we recommend the return of such administration 62% of MPs replied the IPSA had lost paperwork. In to the House; we simply say that we think that that is response to a question on the consistency of advice, the the best way. All that is needed is to enable the separation majority of MPs said that advice has been inconsistent. of the two roles. We updated the survey specifically to ensure that we If Members are concerned about that idea, I challenge were talking not about the history of the organisation them to find any other body in the world which is both and what happened when it was set up, but about the regulator and administrator. IPSA is unique: we would current reality for Members trying to get on with their never allow such an arrangement in any other walk of work. What the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor life, and it is certainly unique when it comes to Parliaments View (Alison Seabeck) said is reflected in the information and payments to Members. and evidence within the report. I will focus on two recommendations for the moment Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): May I pay before concluding my remarks. I just wanted to dispel tribute to the hon. Gentleman for his excellent work in many of the myths that have been knocking about. this regard but, at the same time, strengthen and support We recommend that IPSA should move as far as what the hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell) has possible to a system of direct payments. There are lots said? Among the general public, the thinking is that of reports in the media about MPs and whether they are expenses are taxi fares and the rest, but they do not pocketing money, but, as we know, certainly since the understand—understandably so—that expenses include beginning of the new Parliament, that has not been the the salaries that we pay our staff, without whose work case. Even IPSA would agree, because it has robust we could hardly carry out our duties as Members. The systems, but the Committee says, “Why keep paying sooner this silly and unnecessary term “expenses” is money to MPs, who then have to pay it to their member changed to a relevant one, the better we will be. of staff who bought a toner cartridge three months earlier?” Many payments could be made directly to Adam Afriyie: That point is echoed and very well suppliers, so that the money does not go via MPs. They made as a recommendation in the report. IPSA is are not MPs’ expenses, they are the costs of running an taking some steps in that direction, and I hope that the office, and I cannot imagine that anyone in the country report encourages it to move more quickly. buys their own office furniture and then reclaims the Let us remember that all the changes we made in costs. 2009 were about improving the public’s confidence in this institution, but that cannot happen if the way Bob Russell: “Expenses” is the wrong word; those information is published misleads people into believing costs are allowances for us to do our job. My staff something different. I am concerned in particular about salaries are not my expenses. the new intake of MPs, and at some point I will ask IPSA, “How many members of the new intake do we Adam Afriyie: That point is reflected in recommendation 8, honestly think have been terribly devious and tried to in which the Committee states that there should a “clear cheat their expenses?” I think that the answer is zero. distinction” between those costs that are commonly The robust systems in place indicate as much, but every associated with an MP personally, and those costs that eight weeks Members are lambasted in their local press clearly relate to running an office and paying staff. They for claiming something, so something is wrong with the do not come anywhere near an MP; they are merely the way information is presented, and that is what the cost of providing a service to the public. report tries to tackle.

Jo Swinson: The hon. Gentleman’s remarks on the Daniel Kawczynski: I very much hope that as part of separation of the administration and regulation of expenses my hon. Friend’s recommendations to IPSA he challenges are interesting and helpful, and I understand why those it also to interact with our suppliers to lower the costs roles should be separate, but some media coverage that we pay to some of them, such as Cellhire, which I might have been generated in part by the recommendation personally think are extortionate. I very much hope also stating: that IPSA will use bulk purchasing contracts in future “The best arrangement would be for that separate body”— to drive down our costs. the administration— Adam Afriyie: The report also makes that “to be within the House of Commons Service”. recommendation, urging IPSA to continue in that direction Some Members, and certainly I, feel that that is absolutely and, as far as possible, like most other organisations, to the last place to which the administration of expenses do some central purchasing and secure some wholesale should go. A separate accounting firm might be able to agreements, as it has with rail travel. It is stepping administer them more cost-effectively, but please let us slowly in that direction, but we urge it to move a lot not return them to the House authorities. more quickly, so that our time and that of our staff can be spent on constituents rather than on unnecessary Adam Afriyie: I thank the hon. Lady for her view, and bureaucracy. I can understand the shudder that would go up the It is very hard to see anything controversial in our spine if it looked as though we were making such a report; it is incredibly moderate, calm and analytical. It recommendation, but we are not. The Committee’s also asks that IPSA be more transparent and explain opinion is that the House is probably the best place for to the public—on its website, or in a letter to us—its 953 Parliamentary Standards Act 200915 DECEMBER 2011 Parliamentary Standards Act 2009 954 existing system of supplements for London, for the Then we would not have the constant moving around outer London area and for mileage; explain its rationale and unnecessary changes that we currently experience. for those items, which it has introduced, because the The situation seems to work very well in Wales with the public need to know why it has done so; and then to Welsh Assembly and elsewhere, so we recommend not show very clearly the methodology behind the calculation that IPSA introduce the proposal, but that it look at it, that enables it to arrive at its figures for those supplements. so that we do not have stories every three months about That would be a very useful exercise, because then another change—another shift in the level—and whether people might see how the numbers are calculated and a figure relates to RPI or to CPI. Let us forget all that where they come from. and just have a fixed figure that runs for a Parliament. In the second part of recommendation 17, we say that if the system that IPSA has already introduced to Mr Andrew Smith: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, London and the outer London area were rolled out—so who is being generous in giving way. I take him back to we are not making a decision on it, but saying, “if it recommendation 17(c), which states: were rolled out”—let us ask a third party, not us or “In not more than six months’ time, the House should have the IPSA, to undertake a cost-benefit analysis to see whether opportunity to consider the merits of that cost-benefit analysis it saves taxpayers money and provides them with value and evaluation”— for money. Even if it does, and it may not, that is not which the hon. Gentleman referred to— good enough, however, so we recommend that a third “and to make a decision on whether there should or should not be party evaluate whether the system continues to meet the a system of regional supplements instead of the existing travel aims of the 2009 Act. Again, that is pretty uncontroversial: and accommodation provisions.” we simply, and perfectly reasonably, ask for information, Does he accept that that is wrongly worded and inconsistent and for an analysis and evaluation to be undertaken. with what he has said? I, for one, would find it unacceptable Recommendation 17(c) may have caused a little concern. because it compromises the independence of IPSA. During my discussions with the Leader of the House and others, there was some concern that it implies that Adam Afriyie: We can quibble about one word in a Members should take control of the expenses system report that is 100 pages long. I am telling hon. Members again and “decide” what IPSA does. May I just be on behalf of the Committee that that was not the absolutely clear, however, and ask Front Benchers to intention. The intention was simply to express a view reflect on the fact that, if that were the argument, I have about whether that was something that we would like to made it clear—including in the amendment that I attempted see. Basically, it would be like another recommendation to table—that that is definitely not the intention? If a to IPSA. word is slightly out of place, I would just say that the I hope that there is not going to be some massive report is not legislation but merely a set of argument about the issue; I have just made it absolutely recommendations, and I apologise on behalf of the clear to the House what was intended. By the way, I Committee. have also put the matter in writing to Front Benchers. The recommendation states that, once the cost-benefit Furthermore, I have now stated that I imagine that analysis has been completed and we are able to work there would be a statement or early-day motion that out whether the taxpayer would get better value while said, “The House’s opinion is that we like it or do not accountability, transparency and everything else are like it.” The issue is for IPSA, not the House, to decide. maintained, the House should express its opinion, which We are looking for demons where they do not necessarily I imagine would be in the form of a motion or an exist. early-day motion, stating: “In the opinion of this House, we think this piece of work is jolly good and IPSA Mr Leigh: The right hon. Member for Oxford East should think about it.” We would not be overruling (Mr Smith) can be reassured because the House cannot IPSA—nothing of the sort; it would be another order IPSA to do anything, except by an Act of Parliament. recommendation in a report, and that would be it. We could pass any motion we liked to express an opinion, but that could not force IPSA to do anything. Sir Peter Bottomley: Will my hon. Friend explain The right hon. Gentleman talks about the House making recommendation 18, which states that MPs should have a decision, but it is making a decision to express a point no increase in pay during a Parliament? I agree with of view, but IPSA is independent. that, but should it not read as IPSA setting, in advance of an election, what the pay will be? Adam Afriyie: I draw hon. Members’ eyes back to the When I searched for best matches for IPSA telephone first recommendation—the first thing that we are insisting operating hours, the search engine recommended that I on is that that independence should remain. That is go to the International Professional Surrogates Association, what this whole thing was about. We were not tackling which deals with problems of “physical and emotional that in any way, other than to say that in some ways that intimacy”. That is the problem we have with IPSA. independence should possibly even be enhanced through a separation of the administration and regulatory functions, Adam Afriyie: I suspect that we have some of those so that IPSA would be in an even more powerful problems in the House as well. position to do the regulation, audit and checking, rather On recommendation 18, in the Welsh Assembly and than doing the administration. many others throughout the world a figure is set for the duration of a Parliament. We now have fixed-term Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con) rose— Parliaments for five years, but the Committee felt that, even if we did not, it would be far better to select a Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab) figure that remained the same for the entire Parliament. rose— 955 Parliamentary Standards Act 200915 DECEMBER 2011 Parliamentary Standards Act 2009 956

Adam Afriyie: I will give way twice more, and then I Mr Raynsford: I assure my hon. Friend that I do not will definitely stop. I give way first to my hon. Friend. make a profit. I thank the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) Mr Bone: My hon. Friend is making an extraordinarily not only for his introductory remarks, which have given powerful and well reasoned case. But is it not a fact that a good and fair outline of the Committee’s report, but a vote on his motion would simply say that the House for all his work, not just as Chair of the Committee but approves of the recommendations? It could not force prior to its establishment, in ensuring that this important the Government or IPSA to do anything. May I suggest issue is looked at in a clear and dispassionate way. I that a lot of misinformation is being given out by the believe that, under his chairmanship, the Committee usual channels? achieved that objective. It looked carefully, rigorously and dispassionately at the evidence and has come forward Adam Afriyie: We have all heard my hon. Friend’s with recommendations that I believe are sound and comments. sensible and should be taken up. However, a few key messages need emphasising. The Jim Sheridan: Are there any recommendations in the first is that, contrary to what has been suggested by report about the principles afforded to IPSA? Is it some commentators, who have rushed into print to subject to the same transparency and accountability in condemn the report, the Committee was adamant—no terms of salaries, bonuses and hours of work, so that pun intended—in its support for the retention of we can see exactly what it is doing? independent regulation of MPs’ expenses. As the surveys conducted by the National Audit Office earlier this year and the Committee itself more recently have demonstrated, Adam Afriyie: We did not make any recommendations there is a very wide degree of support among MPs in that field; I simply observe that, given how things are generally for the principle of independent regulation. worded, IPSA should be equally transparent. We ask it Some 77% of MPs who responded to the latest survey to tell us what it is doing, explain its logic and show its agreed that independent regulation was important for calculations so that the public can make a judgment on restoring public confidence. whether that is the right way to do things. Point taken. Having said that, the way in which the independent I shall conclude my remarks, as I have gone on a fair regulator has operated the system since May 2010 has bit longer than I intended. I have seen the amendment been fraught with problems. Those problems provided a to the motion. I was a touch surprised that it should huge amount of evidence to the Committee in the have come from a member of the Committee, given that course of its considerations. They are all documented in we had not spoken about it beforehand, but I thank my the report and its annexe. The process for making hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) claims, considering them and paying expenses has proved for all his work on the Committee; he made a great slow and cumbersome. Many MPs have been left contribution and we reached a moderate set of proposals. substantially out of pocket because of the time lag My own feeling is that we have presented the between expenditure and reimbursement. The system is recommendations to the House, and IPSA can see them far from cost-effective. As the hon. Member for Colchester now. The Government may want to consider a few (Bob Russell) highlighted, the NAO concluded last things in the medium term about these minor, non- summer that 38% of claims at that time involved processing controversial legislative changes. If the amendment to costs higher than the amount being claimed. the motion is agreed to, I would not be happy about The system also imposes heavy burdens on MPs’ that but ultimately I would not think it was the end of staff, thus diverting them away from their primary the world. responsibility of looking after the interests of constituents. I know from some of the feedback that I have had in It also, of course, imposes burdens on MPs themselves. the past few days that Front Benchers have been quite There is a great deal of evidence that MPs are not able disoriented in their vehemence; I am quite surprised to perform other functions because of the time that about some of the stories in the newspapers. I just ask they have to spend on cumbersome bureaucratic processes. Front Benchers to take the issue in a reasoned, calm There is also evidence that MPs are deterred from fashion. Let us not be combative. They have heard my making claims because of time-consuming and tortuous view on the amendment. Let us get on with this gently, processes and the lack of clear advice from IPSA on without fear or favour, in the interests of taxpayers, what claims may be appropriate. There is also the fear transparency and making this place work. Above all, we of being subject to media and public criticism, either for need to ensure that we do not get a two-tier Parliament claiming too much, or—paradoxically—for claiming in which those with independent means enjoy an easy too little; we all know of examples of minor items that ride relative to those who need to claim because they Members feel would be held up to ridicule if a claim cannot afford to subsidise themselves. were seen to have been made for them. Both the NAO report last summer and the Committee’s 1.4 pm report, published now, demonstrate a very high level of dissatisfaction on the part of MPs about the working of Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): the system as currently operated—not, I stress, about As almost all of us are recipients of expenses, I assume the concept of independent regulation, but about the that it is appropriate to make a declaration of interest at system as it is currently operating. the outset. Sir Peter Bottomley: On dissatisfaction, I should say Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): that the public interest is illustrated in paragraph 80, You make a profit, do you? page 27, which points out that the cost of IPSA is 957 Parliamentary Standards Act 200915 DECEMBER 2011 Parliamentary Standards Act 2009 958

£6.4 million. If we allowed £400,000 for processing MPs find it easier and safer not to put their heads above payroll, that would leave costs of £6 million for other the parapet and risk being attacked by the media for expenses of £19.5 million. I cannot believe that the supporting sensible recommendations that will improve House would allow that to happen in any other part of the system. the public sector. Alison Seabeck: I also declare an interest. Does my Mr Raynsford: I was going to come to this point later, right hon. Friend agree that the taxpayer will not thank but I entirely concur with the hon. Gentleman’s view us in the long term if we kick the issue into the long that the system is cumbersome and slow, and is not grass and allow the additional costs that IPSA is racking cost-effective. It is costing the country a great deal more up in processing our claims to continue ad infinitum? than is necessary for a safe, rigorous and transparent Something does really need to be done. system for overseeing MPs’ expenses claims. Mr Raynsford: I agree wholeheartedly. We have a Michael Connarty: On whether the system, which is responsibility to speak out openly and properly about costing that amount of money, is effective, IPSA cannot the failings of the existing system, while at the same process a direct debit. It cannot process a BACS payment. time making clear our commitment to a framework of The Scottish Parliament, when I shared an office with independently regulated expenses that guarantee an MSP, used to process direct debits and send me a bill transparency, probity and all the objectives that were for half because we did not have the capacity to do that rightly emphasised in the preparation of the 2009 legislation. either in the Fees Office or in IPSA. It seems that for £6 million we get a system that does not work. The report proposes exactly that. First, any fair-minded commentator reading the report will see that it clearly is Mr Raynsford: My hon. Friend makes a telling point not arguing for a return to the old discredited system of and countless examples have been brought to those of self-regulation; that is not anywhere in the report. It is us who served on the Committee of ways in which the utter nonsense for some media commentators to imply current system imposes unreasonable costs and burdens that that is the objective. Secondly, it is not a case of and is inefficient. Our objective as a Committee was to “greedy”MPs arguing for more money.As any fair-minded come forward with proposals that would be practical observer of the report will see, it focuses on ways in and sensible and could be implemented to achieve a which savings can be made and argues that we should better system of independently regulated expenses. That be operating a system that gives better value for money is the nub of what the Committee is proposing. As the to the taxpayer. Indeed, as the report highlights, the report emphasises, the improvement of the process should criticisms have been overwhelmingly about the processes deliver savings in expenditure because the current system operated by IPSA, rather than the amounts of money costs more than is required to run an independently involved. Thirdly, the report does not argue for flat-rate regulated, transparent and cost-effective system. Indeed, allowances, although it has been misrepresented as doing as the Chair of the Committee made clear, it is hard to so. I will come back to that issue in a moment because it find examples anywhere else in the world of a system is controversial, but it is important to put on the record where the regulator is also the payment agency—where that it is not the Committee’s recommendation that the two roles, administration and regulation, are combined. there should be flat-rate allowances, other than those There are unfortunately inherent inefficiencies in the that already exist. There are flat-rate allowances in the way in which that is being done, which need to be existing system that apply to London MPs and those addressed to create a fair but also more cost-effective living in the area around outer London. system. Therefore, it is sad, but not entirely unpredictable, Bob Russell: I am sure the media have not deliberately that much of the media reaction to the publication of gone out of their way to misrepresent the report and the report and today’s debate is to interpret them as an thus mislead readers. Does the right hon. Gentleman attempt to turn the clock back to the bad old days. May think that the TaxPayers Alliance had not read the I say openly, as an MP who has not been subject to report when it made its comments? Clearly, as has been personal criticism for his expense claims over the years, pointed out, the report would not impose an additional that I have no wish whatever to revert to the old system, cost on the public purse; in fact it talks about greater which was open to abuse and has rightly been replaced efficiency and saving money for the public purse. Perhaps by one of independent regulation? All MPs suffered those at the TaxPayers Alliance are the people who are reputational damage as a result of the exposure of the at fault and not the national media. abuses that some perpetrated under the old system. The restoration of public confidence is vital and that is what Mr Raynsford: I note, but I cannot say I am persuaded, should be at the forefront of our minds. That is why we by the hon. Gentleman’s touching faith in the integrity must stick with a system of independent regulation, but and probity of journalists, not all of whose expense it is also why we should not stay silent now about the claims would survive the slightest degree of the scrutiny failings of the administration of the existing system. that they advocate in the case of MPs. However, I agree The worry is that, because MPs are naturally worried that there are some forces outside this place that are about reputational damage in a climate where some of only too keen to rush to judgment. They do not make a the media have used this as an opportunity in the last proper considered appraisal of the evidence in the report, day or two to raise lurid headlines of “Back to the bad or weigh up the merits and arguments and debate those old days”, and “Greedy MPs want more money”, genuine rationally, but rush into caricature and vitriolic attacks concerns about the inefficiencies and unsatisfactory on MPs because they have an agenda, which I do not features of the current system will not be addressed. wish to elaborate on further today. 959 Parliamentary Standards Act 200915 DECEMBER 2011 Parliamentary Standards Act 2009 960

[Mr Raynsford] Mr Raynsford: If my hon. Friend reads the transcripts of the evidence, he will see that the Committee took The report proposes, first, separation of the regulation evidence from Sir Ian Kennedy in two sessions. He will of the expenses system, which should remain in independent have to draw his own conclusions from the views set hands, from the administration, which as we have heard forward by Sir Ian Kennedy. I have to say that we did repeatedly and saw in the evidence submitted to the not feel that there was a meeting of minds that would Committee, could be handled in a far more cost-effective suggest the likelihood of a smooth and easy transition way. The report does not propose a return to the Fees from the current arrangements to ones that would work Office but it does suggest having a cost-effective properly and effectively, and in a way that guaranteed administrative body appointed to run the process of the public confidence in Parliament that we all want to handling claims and making payments, subject to the see. independent regulator’s overall remit. That kind of The report recommends the establishment of a liaison structure applies almost universally in comparable group between IPSA and representatives of MPs’ staff. organisations. It does not require a return to administration I found it extraordinary that no such group exists, but in this House. It could be done entirely independently. that probably explains why IPSA, in some of its evidence The case for separating the regulatory function from the to us and in some of its responses to MPs, appears to be administrative function was made forcefully by a large surprisingly ignorant of the practical implications for number of extremely experienced people who gave evidence the staff in this place of operating the systems that it to our Committee, many of whom said that the present has set up. The establishment of a liaison framework arrangement was indefensible and not cost-effective. between IPSA and MPs’ staff, who do the bulk of the Secondly, the report recommends the extension of work in making claims and processing applications, is direct payments to cut down on bureaucracy and costs surely commonsensical and ought to be done. without any risk of MPs gaining a financial advantage. I cannot see how the many pragmatic and sensible That must be common sense. The report also proposes reform proposals in the report merit the intemperate more extensive central procurement of equipment and language that has been heaped on them by some media supplies to save public money—again, a recommendation commentators. However, let me in conclusion focus on that should command widespread support. It proposes two recommendations that might appear to be more the annual publication of claims, backed up by receipts controversial. The first is the proposal to amend the that have been redacted to remove personal details. legislation to make it clear that the independent regulator That of course goes far further than the current system, should, in line with the recommendation of the Committee which does not involve the publication of receipts, so on Standards in Public Life, the suggestion that we are trying to get away from transparency in making that recommendation is curious. “support MPs efficiently, cost-effectively and transparently in carrying out their parliamentary functions”. The framework proposed in the report would be more transparent than the current arrangements. At the The way in which that recommendation was transposed same time, it would reduce the scope for potentially into legislation allowed a loss of clarity. misleading indications of MPs’ expenses, which is the product of bi-monthly publication. That can result in Adam Afriyie: It struck us in the evidence sessions some MPs who have particular surges, peaks or troughs that even the chairman of IPSA acknowledged that he in expenditure looking as though, in any one set of did not quite have the mandate to justify supporting published figures, they are spending much more than MPs in the way that he wanted, because the legislation their neighbours. Therefore, a simple, more accurate says that he must “have regard to” the principle of and fully transparent annualised publication system, supporting MPs cost-effectively and efficiently, rather together with a move towards real-time publication, as than it being a primary duty. It is clear from all the is proposed, must make sense. observations and evidence that there can be no other The report recommends strongly the clear separation primary duty for such a body other than to support of expenses, which are items such as travel, subsistence MPs cost-effectively and efficiently in doing the duties and accommodation costs, from office expenditure. The that their constituents expect. hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell) and many others have made the point that such expenditure, bizarrely Mr Raynsford: I agree very much with the hon. and uniquely to Members of Parliament, is treated as Gentleman. It is clear from the evidence that there is a an expense. Where else would the costs necessary to lack of clarity in the legislation, and that needs to be carry out one’s job, such as for one’s desk, staff, office resolved. It cannot be satisfactory for the chairman of supplies, printers and so forth, be treated as an expense? IPSA to talk in fairly broad terms about balancing a Those are not, in normal parlance, an expense, but number of different considerations, some of which are necessary costs of carrying out our functions. They in legislation and some of which are not. That gives no should be identified separately so that we no longer see clarity about what the role and responsibility of the the highly misleading figures that are produced by some independent regulator should be. journalists to imply that MPs benefit from expenses of There is a persuasive case for making this change. £120,000 a year, when that is a reflection of the costs of This is not MPs arguing for support, which some journalists running their office and of their staffing. Those costs have interpreted it to be. It is not us saying that we need should not be subsumed by, or confused with, expenses. customer care, as has been suggested. This is about Mr Winnick: Like the hon. Member for Colchester clarity in the role of IPSA and in the balance that needs (Bob Russell), I intervened when the Chair of the Select to be struck in its work between ensuring that MPs have Committee was speaking. What is IPSA’s response to the support necessary to carry out their functions properly, that point? Does it accept that it is farcical to describe in a cost-effective and transparent way, and ensuring staff salaries and office accommodation as expenses? that all the other objectives that we want are satisfied. 961 Parliamentary Standards Act 200915 DECEMBER 2011 Parliamentary Standards Act 2009 962

The lack of clarity needs to go. The arguments are set two or three years ago, when completely unacceptable out very persuasively in paragraphs 8 to 13 of the malpractice under the old system was exposed. That report, and I commend them to right hon. and hon. has passed, and we are in a different era. The principle Members. of independent regulation is accepted and the new The second recommendation that might be seen as system is in place. It is not working as well as it should, controversial is in respect of flat-rate allowances. The for reasons that have been outlined, and it is right that first thing that I should say is that it is sometimes we should be serious about finding ways of improving ignored that there are existing flat-rate allowances. As a it. We need to ensure that we have a system for MPs to London Member, I obviously receive one such allowance. be able to carry out their functions, responsibilities and Members from outer London and the immediate duties in a proper way and to be reimbursed for expenditure surrounding areas are also eligible for an additional that they have of necessity to incur to perform those allowance. Those elements exist at the moment. duties. It was put to the Committee that there might be a 1.30 pm case for extending that principle of allowances to cut Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): I beg to move out much of the considerable cost involved in checking amendment (a), to leave out from “House” to end and and processing individual claims for travel and add accommodation costs. I can see an argument for that, “thanks the Members’ Expenses Committee for its First Report but I am not wholly persuaded that it should be done. I on the Operation of the Parliamentary Standards Act 2009, do believe, and I think that the Committee believes, that HC 1484; and refers it to IPSA to be considered as part of its it is right for the idea to be evaluated independently. Annual Review.”. That is why the recommendation in the report states It is not often that I rise in the House as the villain as clearly that there should be an independent evaluation the piece, and that was certainly not my intention. If I of it. have in any way shown a lack of courtesy towards my Committee Chairman, I want to apologise in front of Cathy Jamieson: Like my right hon. Friend and as a the House. There is not another Member who is more member of the Committee, I was not persuaded that we courteous to other Members, and his chairmanship of should move to that system. However, does he agree the Members’ Expenses Committee was a model of that if it is not evaluated and analysed independently, courtesy. I apologise if my e-mail of this morning was we will continue to have these arguments and the debate slightly too late in arriving at his desk. will continue in the media? We therefore need to consider I want to make it clear that I signed up to the report it in more detail. and support it, and that I have been astounded by the vilification in the press of the modest proposals made in Mr Raynsford: My hon. Friend makes a very persuasive it. However, it is important to point out that there are point. I hope that all Members, including those who are recommendations in it that need to be taken seriously nervous about possible media criticism of any steps that and taken forward. During the course of yesterday, it we take in this matter, accept that there is a world of became increasingly apparent that there was a real difference between a recommendation to introduce such likelihood that a vote would be called on today’s motion, a fairly fundamental change to the way in which expenses and that it might be defeated. are paid and a recommendation that the likely costs, benefits and adverse consequences of it should be evaluated Bob Russell: Would my hon. Friend like to inform the independently. That is the nub of the Committee’s House whence that information came? recommendation. Guto Bebb: I am grateful. It came from various I accept entirely the point made by the hon. Member colleagues, and indeed from some Parliamentary Private for Windsor that there might be ambivalence about Secretaries, who despite the fact that there is a one-line the recommendation that the House should have an Whip are staying around today. That might indicate opportunity to debate this matter. The point has been why I had my concerns. made forcefully that whatever the House decides, it will The report is an important piece of work and contains be for IPSA, ultimately, to determine whether any such proposals to better the situation. Crucially, and in contrast recommendations should be supported. That, to my with the media comments on it, a large part of the mind, means that the motion is acceptable. I would Committee’s work examined not the unfairness of IPSA prefer it to the amendment, which has the whiff of the towards Members—we have spoken at length about long grass about it. I am only sorry that a member of that in the Chamber—but how it has discriminated the Committee who signed up to the report as written against our staff. That issue has been ignored time and and as presented to the House has moved an amendment time again when we have discussed how IPSA operates. that goes in a slightly different direction. I believe that It has created real barriers to promotion for staff members, the report stands. I accept entirely the ambiguity in the and they have found themselves worse off for child care. role of the decision by the House. I support very much There are serious proposals on that in the report, which the hon. Member for Windsor in his view that the IPSA should take into account. House should consider the recommendation, but that It is frankly astounding that IPSA has not formally ultimately it will for IPSA to determine whether it spoken to any organisation responsible for our members should be applied as the basis for an expenses scheme. of staff. There are recommendations in the report that it In conclusion, I believe that this is a sensible, pragmatic should be allowed to think carefully about and take and important report that deserves serious consideration. forward. I would not want to end up with the report It should not either proceed to the long grass or continue being rejected by the House, allowing IPSA to ignore to be the subject of vilification from certain quarters its responsibility to consider those recommendations where it is seen as simply a rerun of the debates of seriously. 963 Parliamentary Standards Act 200915 DECEMBER 2011 Parliamentary Standards Act 2009 964

[Guto Bebb] Mr Bone: I entirely understand the position of the right hon. Member for Oxford East (Mr Smith), but I Before becoming a Member of the House, I ran a really do not understand that of my hon. Friend the small business for 17 years, so I believe in a pragmatic Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb). He voted for the approach to what can be done. There are 19 recommendations report in December and supported it, so how can he in the report, and I stand by them, although I would say move an amendment that would prevent the House that we need to explain recommendation 3 in detail. I from voting on it? It is very bizarre. take full responsibility for the wording of it, because I was a member of the Committee, but it has allowed the Guto Bebb: I have attempted to explain my reasoning. media to attack us on the basis that we want to bring the I believe that there are several recommendations in the expenses system back in-house. A Committee of Members report that should be taken forward, but I have clearly came up with that wording, and I am as responsible as stated my concern and suspicion that if the House anybody else. divided on the motion, the report would be rejected. That would be a great shame. We need to consider carefully whether the administration and governance of the system can be split, and whether Bob Russell: Pursuant to my previous point and the better value for money can be achieved by allowing one made by the hon. Member for Wellingborough IPSA to subcontract the work of administering it. The (Mr Bone), I am not sure whether the Committee had media’s conclusion from looking carefully at the wording 12 members, but of the Members who were prevailed of recommendation 3 has been unfortunate—I do not upon to sign the amendment, only one is in the Chamber. believe the conclusion that has been drawn was the Can my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto intention behind the report. As my hon. Friend the Bebb) tell me who leaned on him to table the amendment? Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) and the right hon. He had sufficient time to find people to sign the amendment, Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford) but no time to discuss it with the Chair of his Committee, have made perfectly clear, that was not the report’s which produced a report that he had previously approved. purpose. If there were transcripts of our discussions in Committee, they would make that apparent. Guto Bebb: I enjoy the hon. Gentleman’s contributions, but I think I have already responded to that point fairly clearly. I refer him to my earlier answer. Adam Afriyie: I respect the work that my hon. Friend has done with the Committee. I have already pointed Mr Bone: My hon. Friend is being exceptionally out my slight frustration and disappointment with the generous in giving way. Will he tell the House when the fact that we have not spoken—there would have been wording of the amendment came into his mind? It is other ways of achieving his goal, but his actions ruled great that Back Benchers are moving amendments, but them out. did he have a little help? Did anybody perhaps give him a draft of the amendment? I simply observe that the report is not a legal document. It is not a Bill or a piece of legislation but a general set Guto Bebb: Again, I am very grateful to my hon. of recommendations for small changes to legislation Friend. In reality, when Members table amendments that are not that controversial. The absolute precision they do so in their own name and stand by them, so the of the wording—one word here or there—does not implication of his comments does him a disservice. make any difference. The report does not commit anybody I shall refrain from speaking about the report in to doing anything with such precision. general, because I agree with the comments that my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor and the right Guto Bebb: I am grateful to my hon. Friend and hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich made. accept his comments, but that has not been my argument. There is a lot to be commended in it, and it contains My argument is that Members need to have a great deal 19 recommendations that can stand up to scrutiny, but of confidence in IPSA to believe that it would not see a it appears that three of them create a problem. I would rejection of the report by the House as an excuse not to rather IPSA considered them, and implemented 15 or take its recommendations seriously. 16 of them for the next financial year, than not consider them at all. That implementation would make a difference not just to Members but to our staff. More importantly, Mr Andrew Smith: To clarify what the hon. Gentleman’s it would create more transparency and better value for amendment means, is not the crucial difference that money, and it would result in our constituents looking the original motion would have the House approving upon the House with more confidence. We would once the recommendations in the report, whereas agreeing again have proved that we are not looking to feather our to the amendment would mean that the House was not own beds or change the situation in our interests. We approving them but simply passing them to IPSA for are looking to change the situation in a way that is consideration? I might be able to live with the amendment, practical, effective and deliverable. In my view, delivering but I would not have been able to vote for the motion, some of the recommendations soon is better than taking indeed, I would have voted against it. the view that we have to ensure that all of them are delivered now. Guto Bebb: I am grateful for the intervention and delighted that the amendment will make it easier for 1.39 pm Members to ensure that IPSA examines the issues in the The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark report. I joined the Committee with a great deal of Harper): I am grateful to be called at this stage of the reservation, because as a newly elected Member the last debate, but it is worth saying at the start that because thing I wanted was to be vilified as being part of an the report was published only on Monday, the Government attempt to make MPs’ lives easier. have not had the opportunity formally to respond to the 965 Parliamentary Standards Act 200915 DECEMBER 2011 Parliamentary Standards Act 2009 966

Committee and to set out our views. I thought it would The Government are unable to support the motion. be helpful for the debate and the House if I were able to It is helpful for the House that my hon. Friend the do so at a relatively early stage of the debate. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) has moved the My hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Adam amendment, because I fear that otherwise, I would have Afriyie) referred to the press coverage, but I can assure urged my hon. Friends, and indeed every Member of him that the Government are not responsible for that. the House, to vote down the motion, because there are We have said publicly that most of the recommendations flaws in some of the recommendations and it would not of his report relate to the expenses scheme, and are have been appropriate. The amendment enables the therefore for IPSA to consider, and suggested that it report to go to IPSA for its consideration. Indeed, might want to do so as part of its annual review. We IPSA has said that it is very pleased to consider the have said that we will look carefully at the section of the report as part of its annual review. report that is directed at the Government, that we are totally committed to an independent and transparent Cathy Jamieson: Before the Minister moves on, will expenses system, and that we could not accept any the Minister explain to the House exactly which recommendations that would be incompatible with that. recommendations he feels are flawed and why? I leave Members to judge, but I do not consider that to be particularly harsh. It is a perfectly calm and balanced Mr Harper: I will. In summary, the recommendations response to the report. that trespass on IPSA’s independence are recommendations 2, 3, and 17(c). It is worth drawing the House’s attention to one other thing. My hon. Friend the Member for Bob Russell: Will the Minister give way? Windsor and the right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford) made it clear that they did Mr Harper: May I make a little progress, because I not in any way want to trespass on IPSA’s independence, need to set out the Government’s concerns about the but however frustrating we find an independent regulator, report? [Interruption.] I will come to that. we cannot give it instructions— The problem is that the motion asks the House—I will come to the amendment in a minute—to approve Adam Afriyie: Will the Minister give way? all the recommendations in the report. It is perfectly true that the Committee’s report in itself has no effect, Mr Harper: Hang on. Let me finish this point and I but Parliament and the House of Commons are being will give way. Paragraph 204 of the report acknowledges asked to approve every single recommendation. It is that some of the Committee’s “recommendations therefore necessary to look at what they are and at require legislative changes” but also states that other whether they are acceptable. recommendations do not require legislation It would have been more helpful if the Government “but could be brought about in that way if IPSA does not act.” had had a little more time, but the motion was tabled The report also says that the Committee believes that for debate today. Between noon on Monday and today, legislation should be introduced to implement its we have had to study the report and the recommendations recommendations if that are directed at the Government. Because I need to “IPSA’s Board has not implemented” be able to set out our position to the House, we have them. had to take a view on them, and I will do so. Adam Afriyie: Will the Minister give way? Bob Russell: I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. He is a Minister for whom I have the utmost respect, Mr Harper: I have said that I will take my hon. and I would hate his future prospects to be diminished Friend’s intervention if I am allowed to finish my point. in the eyes of the House if he aligned himself with the We cannot have an independent regulator and expenses amendment. Does he agree that what he has just said system, and then say that if it does not follow the views sounds remarkably like the wording of the amendment? and advice that we give it, we will legislate to implement Is that a coincidence, or was some pressure brought to them. Those things are not compatible. In paragraph 205 bear on the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb), of the report, the Committee states: who moved the amendment? “We urge the Government and Parliament to have the courage to reform the system of payments…by implementing our Mr Harper: I have not commented on the amendment recommendations.” yet. It is a fact that most of the report’s recommendations From the way I read that—I am happy to be put are for IPSA to consider. One or two are for the Government straight by hon. Members—it seems that there is a to consider, and I shall set out our view on them conflict between the recommendations in the report because the House has been asked to take a view. and an independent system. It says to IPSA, “If you It is probably appropriate at this point to thank my don’t do them, we will legislate to do them anyway,” hon. Friend the Member for Windsor. Not only has he which trespasses on the independent system. chaired the Committee very well, but he has taken a great deal of interest in this issue since the debate earlier Adam Afriyie: I shall be polite in this intervention, this year and the House’s decision to set up the Committee but frankly, my hon. Friend has had to work very hard and give it the mandate that it has. I also thank all to find a tiny little thing to object to, but it does not say members of the Committee, some of whom are present, what he is suggesting. Nowhere in the report does it say for their work. They have carried out a great deal of that we should not have independent regulation and research, taken a great deal of evidence and put a great nobody is saying that—the first recommendation is that deal of work into their conclusions. independent regulation should be reinforced. 967 Parliamentary Standards Act 200915 DECEMBER 2011 Parliamentary Standards Act 2009 968

[Adam Afriyie] the report has a number of sensible recommendations. However, if we were considering the motion, which Paragraph 204 merely states the obvious. In a asks this House to approve every single one of the parliamentary democracy, Parliament ultimately has the recommendations in this report, I would have a problem power to do anything. It does not recommend that the and I would be urging members of the House to vote Government make legislation. Only recommendations 2 against it. What this says is that if IPSA has not and 3 recommend change. Paragraph 204 is not a implemented all the recommendations, the Committee recommendation but an observational statement. The thinks that legislation should be brought in to implement Minister could dig out a sentence from any report to try them. I am simply saying that that is not appropriate if to make a point that simply is not there. we are going to have independent regulation.

Mr Harper: I want time to set out our recommendations, Bob Russell rose— but the report states: “Some of our recommendations require legislative changes; Adam Afriyie rose— others are not dependent on legislation, but could be brought about in that way if IPSA does not act.” Mr Harper: I will take one more intervention on this If the Committee had stopped there, my hon. Friend’s before moving on. I will therefore take it from the point would have had some force, but it did not. The Chairman of the Committee. report goes on to say: “We believe that step should be taken”— Adam Afriyie: I am sorry to disappoint the hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell). The point is that meaning that legislation should be introduced—if IPSA this is not a recommendation of this report. It is merely “has not implemented the recommendations of this report by an observation that members of the Committee have 1 April 2012.” made. If the Minister goes through the 200 or 300 pages of the report, he will find plenty of other observations Mr Andrew Smith: I strongly support the line of that people have made. This is not a recommendation, argument that the Minister is advancing. Quite apart from so the Minister is working a little bit too hard on an the unacceptable proposals within the recommendations— argument that does not really exist. the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) tries to belittle them, but they are there, they mean what they Mr Harper: It is one of the conclusions of the report. say, and the House is being invited to approve them—is I will now move on to the three recommendations. Most it not crucial that this House does not give the impression of the recommendations in the report are for IPSA to that it is seeking to use its legislative power to lean on consider. As Members on both sides of the House have IPSA? That would be wrong, and we must make that said, many of the recommendations are very sensible clear. and I hope that IPSA looks at them and takes them into account. In response to the report, IPSA has said that Mr Harper: I welcome the right hon. Gentleman’s in some areas, it and the Members’ Expenses Committee point, which is an important one. are in agreement. Indeed, it has already introduced The House set up a proper way in which to express its some of the suggestions that the Committee has made. views when it legislated to create IPSA—statutory consultees IPSA has gone on to say, and has confirmed, that it will include Members. IPSA also has an annual review, as consider the recommendations of the Committee as it the amendment makes clear. The proper thing to do is carries out its annual review of the scheme, which is to state our views through that. IPSA has published a very welcome. document in which it acknowledges quite a number of the concerns that Members have raised today and in the Bob Russell: Is the Minister saying that IPSA has report, including, for example, those on staffing. IPSA already responded to the report? has made dealing with staffing one of its focuses. It seems to me that Members need to respond to IPSA. Mr Harper: Yes, IPSA put out a press notice, which is The consultation stage is open until 20 January. I urge on its website for everyone to see. It has confirmed— every Member of the House who has a concern about [Interruption.] Will the hon. Gentleman let me answer how the system works to take full advantage of that his first intervention? IPSA has confirmed publicly that opportunity and to feed their views back to IPSA. it will look at this report and consider the recommendations of the Committee. Indeed, it has said that it is in Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab): I am not agreement with the Committee in a number of areas, following the Minister’s argument. Is he saying that the which is a constructive response. It has learned from 2009 Act, alone among every Act over the past 100 years, some of its previous responses, and is indicating that it is the one piece of legislation that is so perfectly crafted wants to work with Members. It recognises that there that it will never require any amendment ever again? are issues with the way in which the scheme works and it Unlike any Criminal Justice Bill or any other Bill that wants to improve it. has been introduced by the previous Government, this particular Act is sacrosanct. It has been set in stone and Bob Russell: I understood the Minister to say that the must never, ever be considered for amendment. Is that Government had not had time to consider this report, really the Government’s position? yet IPSA has had time to consider it.

Mr Harper: No, it is not the Government’s position Mr Harper: No, IPSA has not considered the report. and it is not what I said. If we were simply transmitting IPSA has said that it will consider the Committee’s this report to IPSA, I would have no problem with it; recommendations, as it considers the annual review of 969 Parliamentary Standards Act 200915 DECEMBER 2011 Parliamentary Standards Act 2009 970 the scheme. As I have said, the Government have had to not about fundamental changes in the principles, but consider the report because the House is being invited about a clarification, so that there is no longer any today to decide whether to approve it. I simply said at ambiguity. the beginning of my remarks that the Government would have welcomed having had more than three days Mr Harper: That was a helpful intervention. Let me in which to do so, and that would have done justice to pick it up as I move on to my second thought on this the report. Many Members said that they wanted a matter. If recommendation 2 is going to make a significant careful and thoughtful review, so I am gently suggesting difference, and is not a modest change, it is misplaced. that giving the Government three days was perhaps not IPSA has a number of objectives that must be balanced. entirely helpful in achieving that objective. The Committee recognises that itself. Paragraph 97 of The Government’s interest in IPSA concerns equipping the report states: it with its statutory framework. IPSA is accountable to “Restoring public confidence in MPs and Parliament was the the House and the Speaker’s Committee, which was fundamental purpose of the 2009 Act and the establishment of set up under the Parliamentary Standards Act 2009. IPSA. It was so basic that it did not need to be explicitly referred The Government are primarily concerned about to in the legislation.” recommendations 2 and 3, which are for the Government. It is quite clear that IPSA has a number of things that it I will say something about recommendation 17, which is trying to achieve. Yes, it wants to support Members of deals with the decision that the House would be invited Parliament to do their jobs efficiently, cost-effectively to take. and transparently. Indeed, it has a legal duty to do so. It Recommendation 2—the right hon. Member for is also interested in both restoring—there is some evidence Greenwich and Woolwich addressed this point—states: that there has been progress in that direction—and maintaining public confidence in MPs—[Interruption.] “The Act should be amended in accordance with the Committee on Standards in Public Life’s recommendation to provide that A comment has been made from a sedentary position. IPSA’s primary duty is ‘to support MPs efficiently, cost-effectively I am not going to repeat it for the benefit of the House. and transparently in carrying out their parliamentary functions.’ I am afraid that I am simply reading out what the It would continue to be IPSA’s role to determine what assistance Committee said in its report. Let me repeat paragraph 97 for MPs was necessary.” for the hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell): It seems that there are two schools of thought about ““Restoring public confidence in MPs and Parliament was the what that recommendation means. It is either a modest fundamental purpose of the 2009 Act and the establishment of change that is meant to correct the emphasis of the IPSA. It was so basic that it did not need to be explicitly referred legislation— to in the legislation.” Those are not my words— Mr Raynsford indicated assent. Alison Seabeck rose— Mr Harper: I see the right hon. Gentleman nodding to that. Or it is a substantial change that would alter Mr Harper: Let me just finish what I am saying. significantly the way in which IPSA functions. These are not my words; they are the words of the Committee. If it is a modest change, it is unnecessary and would have no practical implication. Hon. Members will be aware that one amendment made to the Parliamentary Bob Russell rose— Standards Act 2009 by the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010 was the insertion of section 3A. Mr Harper: Given that the hon. Gentleman’s previous That section sets out the general duties of IPSA, which remark was uncalled for, I will not give way to him any are twofold. One is that IPSA must, in carrying out its further on this particular issue. I will give way to the functions, have regard to the principle that it should act Chairman of the Committee. in a way that is efficient, cost-effective and transparent, when it is running its systems and setting them up. The Adam Afriyie: What is clear from the statement in the second duty is that in carrying out its functions, IPSA report, and clear overall, is that the purpose of creating must have regard to the principle that Members of the the legislation was to improve the public standing of House of Commons should be supported in carrying Parliament, but the primary duty of the body administering out their parliamentary functions efficiently, cost-effectively and regulating must be to support. The CSPL said that and transparently. Although the duty to have regard to there cannot be any other primary purpose than to the principle that we should be supported to do our jobs support Members in performing their functions. The comes second in order, it is none the less just as much a Minister is slightly confusing the two issues—one is the legal duty as the first; it is not an optional extra that purpose of creating legislation and the other is a primary IPSA can put to one side. That is why the change of duty provided to IPSA, rather than a statement that it emphasis would be unnecessary and would simply have must have regard to something, which it may or may no practical effect in how it operates. not decide that it wishes to.

Mr Raynsford: Does the Minister accept the point Mr Harper: I do not think that the two are mutually that is articulated in paragraphs 8 to 13 of the report? exclusive. Indeed, I would argue that if Members are to There is ambiguity, which was reflected in Sir Ian be able to carry out their parliamentary functions efficiently, Kennedy’s response in trying to define the primary there must be public confidence in them. If the public principles that should guide IPSA. That lack of clarity lose confidence in us and in this institution, we shall be is not helpful. There is a need for a change. I am talking in deep trouble. 971 Parliamentary Standards Act 200915 DECEMBER 2011 Parliamentary Standards Act 2009 972

Alison Seabeck: The Minister is making an important mentioned by a number of Members, noted that IPSA point, but it is slightly at odds with his suggestion at the had significantly reduced its cost per claim, observing: beginning of his speech that we were becoming frustrated “This is impressive by the end of its first year of operation”. with IPSA’s status as an independent body. I do not The report went on to say, however, that think that we find independent scrutiny at all frustrating. Will the Minister correct his earlier statement? It was a “IPSA is dealing with a much higher number of claims” bit misleading, and as I have said, it is contradicted by than were made in other UK legislatures in the UK, what he is saying now. “and should therefore be able to be the most efficient in the future.” Mr Harper: The Committee has done an excellent job Given that, as I said, IPSA itself has a legal duty to be in putting together what I acknowledge to be some very efficient and cost-effective, I think that it will be mindful good recommendations, and I hope that the House will of the thorough work done by the National Audit send those recommendations to IPSA. IPSA has said Office and the important recommendations that it has that it will look at them, and that is absolutely fine. made. However, we must accept that, if IPSA is indeed I shall read out recommendation 3 so that Members independent, and if it considers those recommendations can be clear about what it says: and decides not to implement them, we must live with “IPSA’s current administrative role should be carried out by a its decision. It seems to me that if we say, as the report separate body, so that IPSA is not regulating itself, and the Act says in paragraph 204, that if it does not implement should be amended to permit this. The best arrangement would them by next April we will pass primary legislation to be for that separate body to be within the House of Commons make it do so, we shall no longer have an independent Service, both because such a body would avoid imposing undue regulator for our expenses system. I think that I speak burdens on MPs and because it would benefit from the economies not just for the Government but for most Members of scale of being part of a larger organisation in areas such as when I say that we cannot start telling IPSA what to do. human resources and IT. Independent regulation by IPSA and transparency would ensure that it did not replicate the deficiencies of the old expenses system.” Mr Raynsford: I thank the Minister for giving way I entirely accept that the Committee’s intention is not—here again. He is being very generous. May I return him to I paraphrase a media report—to go back to the old Fees the question that I asked earlier about the lack of Office, but it did not exactly go out of its way to make it clarity? When giving evidence to the Committee, Sir Ian difficult for the media to draw that conclusion, and I Kennedy was asked to define the basic principles that think it would be difficult for the House to agree to a guided IPSA. He was reminded that some were contained recommendation that contains such a reference. in legislation, and that some nine or 10 others were listed in a document that he had submitted. He gave us Another point requires clarification. IPSA’s administrative the slightly odd response that all of them were fundamental, role falls into two categories: deciding whether claims which—as I pointed out to him—implied a lack of should be allowed—what is called in the legislation clarity in regard to what really were the fundamental “determining” claims—and paying those allowed claims. principles. Will the Minister please accept that, given IPSA already has the power to contract out the payment that the recommendation of the Committee on Standards of those claims, which is set out explicitly in the legislation. in Public Life was not transcribed into legislation in It can also contract out the payment of our salaries and precisely those terms, there is genuine uncertainty about the administration of our pensions, now that it is responsible what should be IPSA’s dominant objectives? for those. Under the legislation, however, it must retain direct control of the scheme for our expenses and Mr Harper: I hear what the right hon. Gentleman decisions on the claims. says, but I have made it clear that IPSA has a legal duty I believe that the deciding of claims should remain to carry out its work and to ensure that we are “efficiently, with IPSA, and the best way of explaining why I believe cost-effectively and transparently”supported in the carrying that is to quote paragraph 74 of the report, which out of our functions. However, IPSA must balance that quotes the Committee on Standards in Public Life: duty with a range of other duties, one of which is “The CSPL noted in 2009 that both the Scottish Parliament restoring and maintaining public confidence. It will not and the National Assembly for Wales” be possible for it to have a sole objective. —the way in which the Scottish Parliament carried out its work was referred to in our debate in May, and has Mr Andrew Smith: In common-sense terms, does it also been touched on today— not come down to the question of whether IPSA is seen “had felt able to retain self-regulation by adding safeguards, but as working for us—which should not be the case—or as noted that ‘the difference is that neither ... has suffered a crisis of working for the British public? Yes, it has a responsibility trust remotely comparable to that which has affected Westminster.’” to ensure that we do our job in an accountable and I think that, for that reason, the determination of our transparent way and so forth, but ultimately, if public claims should remain with IPSA. The payment can confidence is to be restored, it must be seen to be already be contracted out if IPSA considers that to be working for the public and not for Members of Parliament. more cost-effective and sensible. Other Members have said that we should not return to the old Fees Office Mr Harper: The right hon. Gentleman has put it very approach, and I accept that the Committee did not well. I cannot really add anything to what he has said. mean to suggest that we should, although some may A number of Members talked about costs and how have interpreted its observations in that way. efficiently IPSA did its job. I should emphasise that Words mean what they say, and we must judge them IPSA itself has a legal duty to be efficient and cost-effective. on that basis. The House is being asked to approve these The National Audit Office’s report, which has been words in paragraph 17(c): 973 Parliamentary Standards Act 200915 DECEMBER 2011 Parliamentary Standards Act 2009 974

“In not more than six months’ time, the House should have the that because the Leader of the House said, in moving opportunity to consider the merits of the cost-benefit analysis that motion, that under the relevant legislation MPs and evaluation” would not vote on their pay again, and his opposite —as proposed in recommendation 17(b)— number, the hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle), “and to make a decision on whether there should or should not be confirmed that the principle of independent determination a system of regional supplements instead of the existing travel was right. During those debates, several Members on and accommodation provisions.” both sides of the House were very firm in their view that My hon. Friend the Member for Windsor said that the House should never again vote on our pay, pensions what was meant was that the House should simply or expenses, and I think that recommendation 17(c) is express a view—nothing stronger than that—but I am incompatible with that, which is why the Government afraid that that is not what the report says. The right cannot accept it. hon. Member for Oxford East (Mr Smith) spotted that point and drew it to the attention of the House, and I Mr Tom Harris: I apologise to the Minister for think that it raises a fundamental issue. intervening now, but it took me some time to find the reference to his previous point about recommendation Adam Afriyie: I understand my hon. Friend’s point, 17(c). He seems to be saying that he opposes the but both I and other members of the Committee have recommendation because it advocates a particular allowance made it absolutely clear that nothing in that system in six months. Actually, he seems to oppose it recommendation suggests that IPSA would be bound because it recommends that in six months by it. He will know that earlier in the week when we “the House should have the opportunity to consider the merits” were discussing these matters, I tried to table an amendment of the recommendation to change the motion to make that clear, but it was “and to make a decision”. firmly turned down. I can only suspect that the aim is to Surely he is not saying that the House should be denied engineer a difference. Furthermore, primary legislation an opportunity to consider whether this is acceptable. would be required to enable this place to force IPSA to [Interruption.] do anything, and that is not what the recommendation suggests. I realise that the Minister will persist in his Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. A noble attempt to make this a bigger point than it is, lot of private conversations are going on in the Chamber. and I respect that, but I think that we need to be clear It is very distracting, particularly for those who wish to about it. take part in the debate. If people want to have private discussions, perhaps they should leave the Chamber, so Mr Harper: I know that my hon. Friend has set out that the Minister can be heard. clearly what he intended by the report, but his motion Mr Harper: I am grateful to you, Madam Deputy asks the House to approve the words in the Speaker. recommendation, and those words mean what they mean—they ask the House “to make a decision”. Although If the recommendation simply stated that the House he said that only primary legislation could bind the should have a general chat about the proposals, that House, his Committee wrote, in paragraph 204, that if would be one thing, but it specifically states that the IPSA did not implement the recommendations, primary House should be asked to make a decision on whether legislation should be used. The Committee has set out to change the system of allowances. If we have an its view clearly. It might not have meant to say that, but independent system, we can write to IPSA asking for it did say it. something different—for example, a different system of payments or a cost-benefit analysis. That is one thing. We could make those recommendations to IPSA, which Adam Afriyie: I will leave the Minister alone from could then consider them and, as an independent body, hereon in because the point has been well made. Let us make a decision. If we decide, however, that the House be clear: in paragraph 204 the Committee merely states, can decide to change the system of allowances, we do “We believe”. It is not a recommendation. He is working not have an independent system any more. Members hard and doing a good job at creating the sense that this cannot have it both ways. I listened to the previous is legislation that is going through when it clearly is not. debates, and Members on both sides made it clear that I commend him on his efforts, therefore, but the House we did not want to vote on our pay, pension or expenses. should be clear on that point. That is where we want to be and it is where we want to stay. Mr Harper: I am happy to agree with my hon. Friend that we have explained the matter enough to the House. I shall conclude my remarks so that others can I have set out my view of what the Committee report speak. [Interruption.] I have been generous and taken states, and he has set out his. The House will be asked many interventions. The Government believe that shortly to take a view on that, and I am happy for it to recommendations 2, 3 and 17(c) are unacceptable. I do so. therefore urge the House to support the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy, The creation of IPSA was an essential step in cleaning but if it does not, I urge it to vote against the motion up politics by bringing to an end the discredited system tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor. of self-regulation. IPSA has handled expenses for some time now, and the House recently resolved to commence IPSA’s powers to determine our pay and pensions. 2.15 pm Those powers had been on the statute book since the Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): Many of us previous Parliament, and my right hon. Friend the remember only too well the collective trauma experienced Leader of the House commenced those powers after by the House during the previous Parliament over expenses. consulting Members from across the House. I mention It is worth remembering that the then Prime Minister, 975 Parliamentary Standards Act 200915 DECEMBER 2011 Parliamentary Standards Act 2009 976

[Mr Wayne David] The second report that we are discussing today is that from the Committee on Members’ Expenses. I pay my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and tribute to the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), had support from both and his Committee for their assiduous work. Their sides of the House when he introduced plans for an report is reasonable in tone and contains a raft of external and independent body to have responsibility practical proposals to improve IPSA’s performance. for Members’ allowances. It was rightly seen that a However, I have some reservations about aspects of the system of self-regulation had been thoroughly discredited report. For example, I am somewhat concerned about and that a fundamentally different approach was the recommendation that a separate body be established required—one that could command public confidence within the House of Commons service. That body, the and one that meant establishing a body that was truly report says, would be independently regulated by IPSA, independent of Parliament. That body was the Independent and Parliamentary Standards Authority. “transparency would ensure that it did not replicate the deficiencies Today, the Opposition still strongly support that approach of the old expenses system.” and are firmly behind the principles that underlie IPSA’s I welcome those words of reassurance, which are honestly operation, but it is fair to say that because Parliament expressed, but I am not convinced that we should run moved swiftly to address the wholly understandable the risk of creating a perception that MPs could once public concerns about the House’s expenses regime, again exercise influence over their expenses. For me, after IPSA was established there were a number of independence means independence, full stop. shortcomings in the administration of the new system. I am encouraged that IPSA has listened and that significant improvements have been made and are still being made. Adam Afriyie: I do not think there is any disagreement, For instance, the system for the submission of duplicate actually.The recommendation is merely that the legislation documents relating to Members’ accommodation has should enable the separation of those functions, because been simplified and Members’ mileage claims are now IPSA is unique in the entire world in its existing set-up. much more straightforward. These are just two examples The Committee goes on to suggest what we think might of how things have gradually improved over the past be the best way to work more cost-effectively, but that is 12 months. not the recommendation. The recommendation is merely that the legislation should enable a separation to take That is not to say that the process of improvement place, just to tidy things up a little. should come to an end. On the contrary, we need to consider carefully two reports that highlight the fact that ISPA can and should make further improvements. Mr David: I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, but The first report is that from the National Audit Office, it still worries me that we are talking about at least an published in July. It suggested that IPSA ought to aspect of IPSA’s work coming in-house, to this place. consider a number of points. For example, it stated that Indeed, recommendation 3 says clearly: IPSA needed to consider how it could improve relations “The best arrangement would be for that separate body to be with MPs and provide reassurance that it was truly within the House of Commons Service”. committed to doing all it could to facilitate our work as MPs. Similarly, it suggested that IPSA ought to consider However, if that body is in the House of Commons the introduction of centralised procurement contracts. service, it is under the control of Members of Parliament, It was argued that such contracts would allow more and I do not think that is desirable, nor is it something progress to be made in achieving IPSA’s goal of a that would be easily understood by the general public. cost-effective scheme. Other points in that report are That said, the report makes a number of good practical also worthy of consideration. suggestions. For example, it is suggested that IPSA should extend its use of direct payments to cover as John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): I thank my hon. Friend near to 100% of transactions as possible. That is to be for robustly supporting the coalition position in this welcomed. It is proposed that Members’ office and staff debate, which I, too, endorse. However, does not his budgets should be merged, which would also be welcome. point about the National Audit Office go to the crux of The report proposes that IPSA should make it easier for the dilemma? There are many different views on what a MPs to find out online how much of each budget has good system would be. My personal preference would been spent. That would be a step forward. It is also be for local supplies, rather than national supplies, to suggested that IPSA should always ensure that MPs’ boost local economies; the National Audit Office, backed staff should have their expenses reimbursed directly and by some, is suggesting something centralised and national. that this reimbursement should be made promptly. We Does that not go to the crux of the matter, and is that would all endorse that. Those are just some of the not precisely why IPSA should remain independent? practical and positive suggestions that are well worth active consideration and, I hope, implementation. Mr David: My hon. Friend makes a good point, There are many policies and proposals in the report which underlines the point that IPSA should always that I believe require careful deliberation. However, effectively be independent of Parliament, as he says. because of that, I am of the view that simply approving The only point I would make—and which the National all the recommendations in their entirety might not be Audit Office has also made—is about the general principle the best approach. That is why I have sympathy with the of collective procurement, which could be done more amendment, tabled by Government Back Benchers, effectively to save taxpayers’ money. IPSA has made which asks that the report be considered by IPSA as advances in ensuring a cost-effective scheme, but more part of its annual review. I also hope that the Government can be done, and this is a clear example. will not merely wrap the report in warm words, but 977 Parliamentary Standards Act 200915 DECEMBER 2011 Parliamentary Standards Act 2009 978 ensure that active consideration is given to those proposals I come back to the central issue of the independence that relate directly to the Government—in particular, of IPSA. That is a cardinal principle, and I would not recommendation 2—or the duties of IPSA. want any message to go out from this House, either I believe that the House has begun the process of deliberately or inadvertently, that undermines that restoring the reputation of Members of Parliament in independence. That is important both for the practical the eyes of the public. However, to be honest, we still implementation of expenses and for public perception. have a long way to go. That is why I believe that IPSA’s The standing of Members of Parliament is, I believe, independence must be unequivocally maintained and something that we are all genuinely concerned about. that this House should not have any determining influence Finally, we all recognise that the system needs to be over any aspect of its expenses regime. improved and made more effective. That is why Labour Members and I personally welcome this report from Bob Russell: Would the hon. Gentleman like to follow the Committee on Members’ Expenses and why I shall that argument through? Had it not been for the support the amendment. determination of the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) in getting the House to agree that this Committee 2.26 pm should be established in the first place—we should Adam Afriyie: I have enjoyed hearing the constructive remember that the Front Benchers did not want this contributions to the debate. One thing that has been Committee to exist—we would not be having this debate emphasised over and over again is that nobody wants to now and we would not have been able to discuss the undermine the regulation of payments to Members and important points to which the hon. Member for Caerphilly that everybody would like greater transparency, greater (Mr David) has alluded, including allowing Members efficiency and greater value for money for the taxpayer. to make progress and enhancing public confidence. It is not thanks to Front Benchers, but thanks to the House The amended motion would not be my preferred collectively—and the hon. Member for Windsor route, but it would not prevent other actions from being particularly—that we are having this debate and that taken by the Government as they revisit some of these this Committee was set up in the first place. issues. On balance, I shall not object to the amendment. I hope that we can therefore move swiftly on the next Mr David: I certainly endorse that point. The House business. has been mature in its approach to the issue and, as I Amendment agreed to. made clear at the start, I genuinely commend the work Main question, as amended, put and agreed to. carried out by this Committee. I would make the point, Resolved, however, that for the next stage, it is not for us to accept That this House thanks the Members’ Expenses Committee for everything before us on a blanket basis; we should pass its First Report on the Operation of the Parliamentary Standards matters on for further in-depth scrutiny and appropriate Act 2009, HC 1484; and refers it to IPSA to be considered as part implementation. That is my important point. of its Annual Review. 979 15 DECEMBER 2011 Financial Education 980

Financial Education Justin Tomlinson: The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely spot on with that point and I am just about to come on to it. 2.27 pm We have already had a number of debates in this Chamber on debt management companies, doorstep Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): I beg to lending and payday loans. In fact, on annual percentage move, rates, we have already seen worrying evidence that That this House notes that young people today grow up in an consumers often think the higher the APR, the better. increasingly complex financial world requiring them to make When people take out loans, they are not necessarily difficult decisions for the future, often without the necessary level taking them out for a simple 12-month period. Most of financial literacy; believes that financial education will help people could probably calculate 10% on a £100 loan, address the national problem of irresponsible borrowing and but it becomes complicated. Sometimes, the high-interest personal insolvency and that teaching people about budgeting and personal finance will help equip the workforce with the rate loans can be better than what people think is a safe necessary skills to succeed in business and drive forward economic bet. A good example of that is someone who wishes to growth; further believes that the country has a duty to equip its borrow £100 for two days. They can borrow it from one young people properly through education to make informed of those well-known payday lenders who charge 4,635% financial decisions; and calls on the Government to consider the plus £5.50 for the product fee, or they can go into their provision of financial education as part of the current curriculum unauthorised overdraft facility at their local bank, which review. will charge them an understandable flat fee of £10 a day First, I would like to thank the Backbench Business and a £2.50 fee for the privilege of using their debit Committee for allowing us to have this excellent opportunity card. Nearly everybody would accept the bank’s offer, to raise the profile of our ongoing campaign calling for because it is understandable. greater provision of financial education and to make it compulsory in the national curriculum. I also extend Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): I feel obliged my thanks to Martin Lewis of MoneySavingExpert.com, to intervene, given that my hon. Friend the Member for whose e-petition secured the magic trigger of 100,000 Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) is not here, but how many signatories. It is only the fourth to have done so. people does the hon. Gentleman believe sit and make A number of people have asked me why this subject the calculation when they are working out whether to caught the public’s imagination. A couple of recent take a loan from Wonga? How many of them does he studies perhaps explain that. It was found that 94% of think roll over their loans at the end of the borrowing people agree that financial education is important; that term? 69% of parents feel that their children will get into debt; that fewer than a quarter of parents feel confident in Justin Tomlinson: I thank the hon. Lady for that educating their own children in money matters; and intervention and that is exactly the point. It is so that 72% of parents do not believe that enough has been complicated. In my example, the bank was not the right done to educate young children. option, but on many other occasions, it would be the other way around. The majority of consumers cannot I am personally passionate about this subject because calculate the interest rates to make those informed I believe society is changing. Here are some examples. decisions. The market benefits from that and targets its This year was the first in which debit card usage exceeded marketing to take advantage of the situation. cash usage. Only a few generations ago, people were paid weekly in cash. They often ran out of money, so Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): I were effectively forced to try to manage money in a have a great deal of sympathy with my hon. Friend’s controlled manner. Nowadays it is easy for the money motion and I congratulate him on tabling it. Does he to come in and flow out very quickly. We are seeing a agree that the fundamental problem is not so much greater prevalence of direct debits and standing orders, financial literacy and numeracy skills, although they are so if people get themselves into financial difficulty—the important, but that basic literacy and numeracy need to majority because of an unforeseen change of circumstances, be improved, as evidenced by the unsatisfactory key such as the loss of a job, a bereavement or a family stage 2 results that we saw in May? breakdown—they think that they will apply the financial brakes and not go out that weekend for a meal or to the cinema and that they will not spend any money, but the Justin Tomlinson: I thank my hon. Friend for that direct debits and standing orders are still flowing out of intervention and I agree with him 100%. My speech and the account. People quickly become overwhelmed. that of my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) will cover those exact points. We are seeing ever more complicated marketing messages To conclude this part of my speech, consumers too from different sectors, which are often misleading. often take advantage of what they see as instant pay-free solutions without understanding the implications of Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): I am very what they are taking on. grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way and I congratulate him on tabling this motion, which I strongly Jim Dowd (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab): Before support. Does he agree that one of the big problems is the hon. Gentleman moves away from payday loans, that a lot of people, faced with the marketing to which does he not agree that anybody who finds themselves he refers, simply do not understand the rate of interest even contemplating taking one out—I accept his point they are being charged? That underlines the importance that there are different ways of calculating the best way of basic mathematics in the curriculum alongside the out of a situation—needs to address their whole financial financial education that he is rightly advocating. position? It tends to be indicative of a problem, although 981 Financial Education15 DECEMBER 2011 Financial Education 982

I would not necessarily say that it was systemic. Once I want to say a little about how we got to today’s someone starts robbing from next week, they will be debate. Just over a year ago, I innocently asked a short then and it will go on and on. They need at that parliamentary question calling for greater financial very moment to get the most careful and wise advice on education within our schools. I was then contacted by their personal finances. the national charity, the Personal Finance Education Group, which told me when we met that it had been Justin Tomlinson: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his campaigning on this subject for 10 years. Its representatives contribution. Let me be clear. Everyone has individual said, “That was a very good question? Would you like circumstances, priorities and challenges, and what one another 30 to ask?” for which I was very grateful. I member of the public thinks is the right thing to do submitted those questions, which made me look very might be different to what the next person thinks. For intelligent. I was then contacted by Martin Lewis of me, the driving force is the idea that we have a duty to MoneySavingExpert.com, who said, “Can I come and equip people to make informed decisions so that they meet you? I’m very impressed by the 31 questions can understand the implications of what they are doing you’ve now asked on this subject. You sound very and therefore do the very best according to their own knowledgeable and I’d like to get behind you.” We priorities and circumstances. As we find in our debates, decided between us that I alone could not champion however, all too often people are not in a position to do this cause and that we should launch an all-party that. MPs often end up referring to our casework because parliamentary group. Following a little gentle persuasion time and again we see people who have made wrong from the 6 million subscribers to MoneySavingExpert.com, decisions not necessarily through any fault of their MPs keenly queued into a very busy Jubilee room. We own, but because they did not have the skills to make clocked up a staggering 225 Members from different the right decisions. Indeed, Citizens Advice has highlighted parties, making us the largest such group. that 60% of its work is finance-related. We have a competitive market and the Government At that point, we were tempted to go and knock on have been encouraging people to take advantage of the Minister’s door, offer him a cup of tea and some competition within the energy market. We say to people, biscuits and talk about how overwhelmingly we were “Go and shop around and look at energy tariffs,” but supported by people, but we knew that the Minister is the market is incredibly complex and people need to be often contacted by people championing worthy causes. clued up if they are to be savvy consumers. I recently I have called for basic cookery and life-saving skills to attempted to look at energy tariffs, but they are not all be taught in schools so I have been guilty of making lots like for like, so consumers need a good level of skills to of requests of the national curriculum. We thought that unravel that complicated market and seek out the best instead we would be patient and launch a constructive deal. and positive eight-month inquiry so that when we met the Minister and said, “This is our worthy cause,” we Another reason why I am passionate about this subject would have answers to all the questions that could be is that my generation could be pretty rubbish at handling raised. money. We could go to university, drum up huge amounts of debt, including expensive debt on credit cards, and The inquiry was chaired by my hon. Friend the then secure our first graduate jobs—in my time that was Member for Brigg and Goole who, despite having been relatively easy to do—get on to the housing ladder with called a supply teacher by the Prime Minister, has an a 100% or 100%-plus mortgage and watch house prices extensive knowledge of a variety of roles within schools. increase. When we had learned the error of our ways, We conducted a significant amount of research. More we could reconsolidate our mortgage, pay off all our than 900 teachers responded, telling us what is happening, expensive debts and carry on, but that option will not and what they think could and should happen. More be available to the next generation. As things stand, it is than 50 relevant organisations met us, face to face, in very difficult to get into the housing market and there is oral sessions. We set ourselves up as a mini-Select no guarantee that house prices will rise so that one Committee. We heard from organisations from the banking could take advantage of that should one get on to the sector, financial institutions, teachers unions, financial housing ladder. It is harder for young people to get education providers, the Financial Services Authority credit and harder for people to correct any mistakes and the Money Advice Service. We heard from they may have made. mathematicians so intelligent that the lights in the room started to flicker. We are extremely grateful for the Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): I commend my hon. support given by Carol Vorderman, who had previously Friend, who is a near neighbour, and all the MPs been commissioned by the Conservative party when it involved in this issue—this is the House of Commons was in opposition to look into mathematics standards. working at its best. Does he agree that this is a big issue She was ably supported by Roger Porkess and Stella for women and girls, who are often the particular target Dudzic, who wrote the mathematical example questions of very expensive consumer demands, such as, “You in our report. must have this big handbag,” or “You must buy these incredible clothes”? I think we do our young women We met representatives of the personal, social and and girls a real disservice in this area. Not only do we health education sector, and we also talked to young not educate them about finance but we encourage them people themselves because if we championed this cause to borrow and spend as much as possible. but young people did not wish to engage, it would be a flawed campaign. We were overwhelmed by their support. Justin Tomlinson: I thank my hon. Friend for raising In particular, I thank Katie Emms and Alex Harman, that point. This is part of the problem. We want people who took part in the oral sessions, but who on Monday, to be equipped to make informed choices and also to be promoting our launch, got banned by Twitter for tweeting savvy consumers who understand how to get the best rather too enthusiastically about how good our 52-page for their money. report is. 983 Financial Education15 DECEMBER 2011 Financial Education 984

Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): than others. That said, those institutions can play an Has the hon. Gentleman had an opportunity to look at important role as long as the teachers lead. For example, the evidence presented to the Education Bill Committee a PE teacher providing a wide variety of sports may be at the end of the last Parliament? An attempt to get particularly competent in football and rugby, but if his PSHE, including economic education, on to a statutory students want to take part in, say, trampolining, he may footing in the national curriculum was debated at length, invite the local trampolining club to come in and give a but unfortunately his party prevented that from going lesson. That should be under the control of the teacher through in the wash-up. A lot of very good evidence and be quality-marked so that we can be sure that it is was presented to that Committee. not a marketing exercise.

Justin Tomlinson: I thank the hon. Lady for that Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): My intervention. That was part of the evidence that we hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that such lessons considered, but that was a rather simplistic description should be teacher-led. I had the pleasure of seeing a of what happened in the wash-up. That was not a teacher-led money management workshop run by the stand-alone issue, and we referred to that in the report. charity Credit Action at St. Joseph’s college in my constituency a week or so ago. The year 8 group were Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): We did indeed really engaged. I could see that there was strong merit in look at that issue but was it not the case that we were the approach that was being taken in that lesson. I am not convinced from the start about simply putting financial delighted to support my hon. Friend and congratulate education into PSHE? We wanted to discuss examinations him on all the hard work he is doing. and mathematics and all the rest of it, which is why we have come up with a solution that I think is much better Justin Tomlinson: I thank my hon. Friend for that than that offered before the election. important intervention. A number of members of the all-party group, including several who took part in Justin Tomlinson: Absolutely. It was important to the inquiry, visited local schools to see at first hand the include that as part of the evidence, but as we are about enjoyment and fulfilment of young children who had to set out in our recommendations, it was not the such an opportunity. If we ask them whether they are conclusion that we came to. interested in mobile phone contracts, the cost of driving lessons or the fact that ultimately they will have access Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): I commend the to credit cards and loans, we see that they are enthused hon. Gentleman on his work and on the report that he by money and buy into financial education. has produced. Does he not accept that if his Front-Bench The report recommends that: colleagues had not taken that position, compulsory “Primary teachers should build upon their teaching of basic financial education would have been delivered through money and mathematics skills from an early age across the PSHE in secondary schools since last September? curriculum in preparation for secondary education.” On that point, I welcome the Minister’s decision to Justin Tomlinson: I thank the shadow Minister for his restrict the use of calculators in primary schools, because intervention. We are trying to reach consensus on the it is clear that the ability to do mental arithmetic makes very best way to deliver that education. We considered a huge difference when it come to providing the building that approach as part of our report and concluded that blocks of the good mathematical skills that are essential it was not the right way to go. I am about to set out what to become an informed and savvy consumer. My hon. we feel should be done. I am aware that a number of Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth other Members will also go into detail to explain why Truss) championed that in a Westminster Hall debate in we came to that conclusion. which I had the pleasure of offering my support. I know I am going to whizz over the key recommendations. from my experience of learning maths in school, and My hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole will being reasonably savvy when it comes to financial matters, explain the mechanics behind them because he chaired that such skills are built on the ability to do mental the inquiry. We believe that the Government should arithmetic. promote the provision of high-quality financial education The report continues: in schools in England. They should do that by acting “We welcome the Government’s current proposal to increase on, or supporting, the following recommendations. I the minimum requirement of mathematics GCSE to grade B for hope that the Minister’s pen is poised. primary school teachers and encourage that it should be adopted. With regard to national provision, personal financial It would be advantageous to use the opportunity of training days to refresh the mathematics skills of primary school teachers, education should be a compulsory part of every school’s although we respect the right of the schools to provide training in curriculum. Resources produced by outside organisations a way they feel is appropriate.” and visits of providers to schools should be available On secondary schools, the report recommends: and accessible if considered helpful by teachers and quality-marked by a trusted body. There are many and “Personal finance education should be taught cross-curricular varied examples of volunteers and financial institutions in mathematics and Personal, Social, Health and Economic (PSHE) education with the financial numeracy aspect of personal finance that already go into schools to do a good job. There is education situated in mathematics and subjective aspects taught also evidence that some people felt that that was sometimes in PSHE education. It should be packaged in an obvious and a marketing exercise. clear way to young people.” It was also clear that provision was very patchy. We saw lots of evidence that if a school governor happened Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) (Con): I to have a connection to a particular financial institution, congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate and their school was more likely to have that opportunity on all the work he has done on this subject. Does he 985 Financial Education15 DECEMBER 2011 Financial Education 986 agree that financial education needs to be embedded in another example from Martin Lewis to illustrate that mathematics rigorously and that it should be seen as point. An individual has been unable for 12 months to one of the forms of applied mathematics in the way that find a job; they have been offered a job in a neighbouring mechanics has been historically? We should see finance town but with only a three-month guaranteed contract; as another means of doing that as well. Does he agree and the only way in which they can get to the town is if that it is particularly concerning that girls perform they take out an expensive car loan. Does that individual worse in GCSE maths than boys, despite the fact that take out the loan? There is not necessarily a right or they do much better in other subjects? wrong answer. Are they confident that they will be so good in their job that they will last beyond three months? Justin Tomlinson: I thank my hon. Friend for her That is probably the determining factor, but such examples intervention. I could not agree more. That point is right offer young people the opportunity to talk through the behind our findings. I will set out the split that explains day-to-day, real-life challenges that they may face when that. The report states: they enter the big, bad world. “Personal finance elements of maths should be clearly highlighted to emphasise how they relate to real life decisions. If viable, the Government should implement the Smith Report and Maths Kevin Brennan: The first key recommendation of the Review’s recommendation for the twin GCSEs: ‘Application of hon. Gentleman’s committee is that personal finance Mathematics’ and ‘Methods in Mathematics’ to improve financial education should be part of every school’s curriculum. numeracy and ensure it is examined.” Is he including academies and free schools? Crucially, we saw that in the evidence on the factual side, such as calculating the cost of a loan. We set out Justin Tomlinson: That is exactly the sort of question some examples in the report that covered the cost of that, in setting out the mechanics of the recommendations, standard loans, calculating exchange rates, credit cards, my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole will savings, taxation, compound interest rates and APR, cover—if the shadow Minister could just be ever so which was referred to earlier. Those are factual question slightly patient. with factual answers that are right or wrong and should We also call for a school co-ordinator or champion to be properly examined. We think that that would drive be appointed to each school, preferably from the senior up standards. leadership team. They should be given responsibility for Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): May ensuring that outcomes are achieved in maths and I say what a fantastic job my hon. Friend and the PSHE; for ensuring that there is a clear link between the all-party parliamentary group are doing? Does he agree elements of personal finance taught in mathematics that these issues also come up with pensions? One of and PSHE; and for sourcing resources. We make it clear the great concerns with auto-enrolment is that people that such education should be cross-curriculum, so who have not previously saved will need to understand there should be a point of contact who can champion it. the products, so this sort of education will be very valuable. Dr Murrison: Teachers will argue that there is huge pressure on the curriculum, and I have a lot of sympathy Justin Tomlinson: That came through in the evidence. with that, so how much time will it be necessary to carve If we go into primary schools and start talking about out of an already pressurised curriculum to deal with pensions, we might not necessary engage, but one thing the issue? I assume my hon. Friend is suggesting that leads to another, and if young people have the basic primary children should be taught not about gilts and skills, they can go on to use them later in life. derivatives but about fairly basic stuff, so how much time will be required to bring them up to the acceptable Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) level of numeracy which he envisages? (LD): When I was going around the country earlier this year doing some work for the Government, I talked with young people not about pensions, but about paying Justin Tomlinson: I thank my hon. Friend for that for life after leaving school at 16. The overwhelming contribution. We considered a stand-alone subject and, message I heard was that they wanted financial education in our utopian world, we would have loved to have seen not for the long or even medium term, but for dealing a stand-alone financial education qualification, module with their questions on where to study, how much it will or however it might have been, but we recognised that cost, what about apprenticeships and what the impact greater freedoms have been given to schools, so we on the family income of those choices will be. That is thought it best to build such education, in the most really urgent, really important and universally supported. relevant and rigorous way, into the subjects currently on offer. Justin Tomlinson: I thank my right hon. Friend for that intervention and echo those comments. We have Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): Does my hon. Friend not seen that response as we have made our visits. agree that such education is about understanding Personal, social and health education should be clearly mathematical concepts in a practical way, so it does not defined as four separate strands, one of which should be need to displace any part of the curriculum? If one is personal finance. By reworking the PSHE syllabus, looking at the cost of leasing the car, at whether to place more focused training and assessment can be developed, a spread bet or whatever other type of bet, or at and individuals would have an opportunity to learn anything else, one needs to understand percentages, about the implications of their decisions. multiplication and all those things. They are lifetime Earlier, I pointed out that we are all individuals, with examples that should be taken into the classroom. our own individual challenges, priorities and things that we consider important, so there is not necessarily a Justin Tomlinson: I thank my hon. Friend for that, right answer in this area of education. I shall use yet because it answers in part an earlier intervention. 987 Financial Education15 DECEMBER 2011 Financial Education 988

Mrs Chapman: The hon. Member for Wells (Tessa and a hook to encourage more people to go on to do the Munt) mentions spread betting, but will the hon. Gentleman further maths that this country so needs. confirm that we are not suggesting teaching primary In conclusion, I have been absolutely bombarded school children gambling? with statistics from supportive organisations; I met more than 100 of them before we even started looking Tessa Munt rose— into producing our report. They have been helpful with statistics. The one that stands out more than any other Justin Tomlinson: I am sure that was not the thrust of is that 91% of people who have got themselves into the earlier intervention. financial difficulty feel that if they had been better informed, they might well have taken a different path. Tessa Munt rose— Hindsight is wonderful. We all think, “If only I had done that”. But I certainly think that the principle of Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. that statistic is right; so many people who get themselves One intervention at a time. Is the hon. Gentleman into difficulty could have done otherwise. We have an giving way? absolute duty to equip the next generation of consumers to make informed decisions. Driving up standards in Justin Tomlinson: Yes. mathematics and PSHE goes hand in hand with our campaign for compulsory financial education. I urge Tessa Munt: I accept absolutely the point about not the Government to embrace our positive and constructive teaching primary school children spread betting, but report as part of the national curriculum review. young constituents of mine have made appalling errors due to the betting that is available online, and I complain Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): constantly that on mainstream television there are On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I apologise 31 hours and 55 minutes of online betting shows late at to the hon. Member for Darlington (Mrs Chapman) night. Does my hon. Friend agree that, unless one who is due to speak in a moment, but I would like to understands the implications of what one is doing, one raise an important matter with you. Written ministerial is in deep trouble? statement No. 11, which relates to the Olympics, security and the Ministry of Defence, is supposed to have been Justin Tomlinson: I thank hon. Members for their published this morning. It is still not with the House. interventions; I shall try to give one response to the During Department for Culture, Media and Sport questions three of them. In secondary schools, anything to do this morning, Members were given an opportunity to with betting or credit cards could be relevant. It is very ask questions about the Olympics. Like my hon. Friend important, however, that we as a society do not necessarily the Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown), I am concerned judge what is right and wrong for individuals. However, that the media are trailing several stories about warships the PSHE side of things offers an opportunity to discuss and several thousand military personnel being in east the implications. London during the Olympic games. Could you use your offices, Madam Deputy Speaker, to see whether the How much time should be spent on such education? I statement could be made available forthwith? am conscious that I was called to speak ahead of my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole. I do not Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Iam want to steal all his best lines, and he is keen to set that grateful to the hon. Lady for giving me notice of her issue out in detail. However, in summary, I emphasise point of order. Notice was given this morning of a again that in primary schools the priority is to provide ministerial statement on this matter. I have made inquiries the building blocks for secondary schools, and that is and it still has not arrived. I notice that the Leader of very much on the mental arithmetic side—perhaps just the House and Deputy Leader of the House are in the an introduction to the concept of money. Chamber. I am sure that they have taken note of the In secondary schools, as has been pointed out, financial comments that the hon. Lady has made. Perhaps they education should be integral. In many ways, some of could make inquiries about this matter. Let us return to that work already takes place. For example, we already the debate. I call Jenny Chapman. expect students to do calculations in mathematics; we would like those calculations to be applied to real-life situations. Rather than asking what is 10% of 100, it 2.59 pm might be better to ask how much a loan of £100 at 10% Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): It is a pleasure interest would cost someone. That is the same calculation, to speak in this debate. I congratulate the hon. Members but the point is brought home. for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) and for Brigg There is another element to that. I am very supportive and Goole (Andrew Percy) on the work that they put of mathematics; I studied it at A-level and I am a great into the report. However, before this turns into a complete believer that our success as a nation relies on our love-in in which we all congratulate each other on our encouraging more young people to take up mathematics. efforts, I should observe that I see financial education as One of the biggest challenges is that young people are being about 20% of the solution to the problem with put off the subject because they think that it is a lot debt in this country. We also need to look carefully and harder than it really is, because they do not apply it to quite quickly at regulating certain parts of the industry, everyday life. When we ask young people whether when especially payday loans and the high-cost lending sector. they look at different tariffs on mobile phone contracts I would also like to improve advice services and secure they realise that they are carrying out a mathematical advice services that are under threat at the moment. I calculation, they find that they are interested in the would look at advertising, too. I think that it is at the subject. Such approaches can be used as an opportunity root of some of the severe problems that people get 989 Financial Education15 DECEMBER 2011 Financial Education 990 themselves into with debt. On loans, some very dodgy been lucky but young people now, as the hon. Member products are made to look commonplace, and young for North Swindon said, are in danger of financial people are encouraged to take out short-term loans for mismanagement having a much longer-term effect on things such as going to a music festival, which sends their lives. On finishing education, young people completely the wrong message. We need to do something immediately face tough monetary decisions. At 17, they about that fairly urgently. are already in debt and tied into contracts that they did As a nation, many of us lack the knowledge we need not fully understand for things such as mobile phones. I to properly manage our finances. About two thirds of take the slack given to me by the hon. Member for Wells people in the UK say that they feel too confused to (Tessa Munt) who made a good point about gambling. make the right choices about their money and more If that is an issue at primary level, which I had not than a third say that they do not have the right skills to appreciated, it is right that that be included in the properly manage their cash. Only 36% of people understand curriculum. Therefore, we need to be properly prepared that the term APR relates to payments. Within families, to deal with these decisions. Put simply, an informed about 19% of parents have never discussed how to borrower is a safer borrower. spend money with their teenagers and 32% have yet to discuss how to budget or even describe what one is. Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): I appreciate Research has shown that 43% of parents do not know the hon. Lady’s point, but does she not agree that if we what basic financial terms such as APR or PPI mean. have a problem with children under the age of 11 On Tuesday, I was in a financial education class in a gambling, the most important place to start is not the women’s prison and I was quite impressed by how well curriculum, but access to online gambling? informed some of the inmates were, but there was quite a long discussion about PPI, which seems to be a huge Mrs Chapman: I agree completely. That goes back to issue on which many people feel they have been misled. the first point that I made about financial education They say they would have benefited from clear information being one of four strands of the solution, the others at a young age. being debt advice, advertising and regulation. The hon. Gentleman is right to point that out. Frighteningly, about three quarters of us say that a lack of basic financial understanding is to blame for In schools across England, the provision of personal our debts. The gaps in our national financial knowledge financial education is ad hoc. We saw some good examples are worrying but are made all the more troubling in when writing this report. I took it upon myself to visit these times of austerity. The citizens advice bureau in schools in my constituency and I was impressed with my constituency tells me that in the past 12 months it what I found. There is little teacher training on personal has dealt with just under £9.5 million of debt. Between financial education and there is therefore limited subject 2004 and 2010, individual insolvency levels rose sharply. knowledge and confidence among some teaching staff. Apparently, in the 12 months ending in quarter 3 of It is stating the obvious to say that schools face significant 2011, about one in 361 people became insolvent, which barriers to teaching financial education, such as curriculum is significantly higher than the annual average of one in time, the absence of a statutory mandate and the lack of 1,655. awareness of suitable resources. Elizabeth Truss: Does the hon. Lady agree that the Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab): Has my hon. Friend current requirement of a grade C in mathematics to noticed, as I have, even more people coming to her teach in primary schools may need to be amended? Is surgery with financial issues than previously? Is she as she concerned, as I am, that we have the smallest worried as I am that they are coming to us at a time proportion of students studying maths from 16 to 18 of when even less independent financial advice is available any country in the OECD? We therefore do not necessarily for them to access? have people moving through the system with the right mathematical understanding. Mrs Chapman: My hon. Friend makes a good point. She tempts me to break a promise that I made to myself Mrs Chapman: I agree with that to a point. I have when I came into the debate not to have a rant about the A-level maths and I am very glad that I studied that. economy and make a wider political point, because I One does not have to be a maths expert to deliver good thought that that probably would not be what this financial education, but one does need to have confidence occasion demanded. However, she makes that point for in the subject, have a good grasp of the knowledge and me and I thank her for it. be a good teacher. A good teacher who can get the ideas Education is the armour against being misled and I across can probably teach the things that we discuss in believe that advertising is misleading us. I refer the the report quite well. House to my ten-minute rule Bill of about a year ago, which I am sure all hon. Members have followed closely, Lyn Brown: Given that I could not tempt my hon. which would curb some of the advertising on financial Friend to have a rant on the economy, perhaps I can products. Financial education provides protection against tempt her one more time to deviate on to the Government’s some of the most traumatic circumstances a person can record on this matter. In November 2011, applications find themselves in, from paying an additional fee on an for training courses for secondary maths teachers fell by unauthorised overdraft because one is not aware of how more than a quarter on last year. Is she as concerned as the charges work, to losing one’s home or having one’s I am about the implications of that? belongings repossessed and being declared bankrupt. Many of us have been able to learn from our mistakes Mrs Chapman: I am very concerned about that. I am because either the economy has been in a good state or not only concerned about mathematics. My region has we have been able to rely on family or friends. We have seen a drop of about 20% in higher education applications. 991 Financial Education15 DECEMBER 2011 Financial Education 992

[Mrs Chapman] a point of order a short time ago about the availability of a written ministerial statement from the Ministry of We are assured that there will be a last-minute surge in Defence about the London 2012 Olympics. I have since applications. If that is not the case, I fear that we will had the opportunity to look into its whereabouts. It face a serious problem. was, in fact, issued just after 1.30 pm today, but for some reason the IT did not allow it to get through to the Oliver Heald: Does the hon. Lady agree that there is Vote Office. That has now been corrected, and it is now also an important issue about an entrepreneurial society? available in the Vote Office. I hope that if the hon. Lady If we do not have enough basic financial information goes to either the Vote Office or the Library, she will and knowledge in our community, it is a brake on get a copy, but I have a further copy here if she would innovation and entrepreneurialism. It also means that like it. people who do set up a business often cannot prepare a decent business case and that their business does not Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Iam sustain itself. That is important to our economy, as are grateful to the Deputy Leader of the House for that. I the matters that she is raising. am sure that he agrees that, notice having been given by a Department of a written ministerial statement, it Mrs Chapman: I do agree with that. There are plenty should have been here a considerable time before 1.30 pm. of examples of entrepreneurs who have done incredibly However, we are grateful to him for his prompt action well with little formal education. I do not know this for and for the fact that Members will now be able to look sure, but I do not think I am pushing the boat out too at the statement. much to suggest that Duncan Bannatyne, who has his head office in my constituency, does not have a maths degree. Such exceptions aside, most people would benefit 3.11 pm from having this sort of knowledge. I think that it The Minister of State, Department for Education would assist in the way that the hon. Gentleman indicates. (Mr Nick Gibb): May I start by apologising for having I will conclude because much of what I was going to been a couple of minutes late to the debate? say has already been said, and probably much more It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Darlington eloquently, by the hon. Member for North Swindon. (Mrs Chapman). She is right that an investment in [Interruption.] I was not expecting a response to that. knowledge pays the best interest—certainly better than On the advice of teachers, the all-party group on financial the interest that some of my retired constituents are education for young people felt that it was necessary to receiving on their bank balances at the moment. She have a champion for personal finance in each school. I made an important point, and I hope that the national had my doubts about that when the report was drafted, curriculum review will ensure that our new national because I was not sure that schools would welcome curriculum increases the amount of knowledge that having that burden loaded on to them. However, it was children receive. pointed out to me that teachers had argued strongly for I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North that recommendation to be included. With that in mind, Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) not only on his balanced I am happy to support it. and passionate speech but on his leadership, along with The all-party group also believes that the subject my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole should be examined, and I agree. Ofsted has stated that (Andrew Percy), of the all-party group on financial courses leading to formal accreditation have inspired education for young people. I thank the all-party group “a more coherent curriculum and sharper focus on the learning for its report on financial education in the curriculum. outcomes students were expected to achieve”. Both have been powerful advocates of the cause, and As one head teacher has explained: together with Martin Lewis have managed a powerful “Unless you test it, it will not happen”. and effective campaign. I look forward to hearing from my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole later if The introduction of dual mathematics GCSEs would he catches your eye, Madam Deputy Speaker. promote the right objective and ensure that the subject is properly examined and taught. Martin Lewis is an energetic and highly effective I urge the House to examine the matter closely, take it campaigner for financial education in schools, the result seriously and include it in what I hope will be a package of which has been an e-petition with more than 100,000 of measures that will help address the serious problem signatures. From meeting Martin Lewis recently, it is that we have not just with the lack of financial education clear to me how passionately he believes in the importance but with debt more broadly. I hope that we will consider of financial education for young people to help them matters such as advertising, the provision of advice and deal with the complexities and dangers of money and the regulation of the high-cost lending market. debt management. I know that the all-party group has also been well supported by the Personal Finance Education I wish to conclude with a lovely quotation that I have Group, which has worked for a number of years to found, which I could not help but try to give at some promote and develop finance education in schools. point. Benjamin Franklin said: The Government are currently conducting two reviews— “An investment in knowledge pays the best interest.” that of the national curriculum, which of course includes I think that is quite a nice way to end. the core subject of mathematics, which is a cause about which my hon. Friend the Member for South West The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss) is passionate, and that of the House of Commons (Mr David Heath): On a point personal, social, health and economic education, which of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The hon. Member includes financial capability. The all-party group’s report for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) raised provides important insights and recommendations to 993 Financial Education15 DECEMBER 2011 Financial Education 994 both reviews, and the Government are grateful to it for Tessa Munt: Might one solution be to ensure that its thorough and high-quality report. We will examine it young people, as they pass through the curriculum very carefully indeed. stages from primary through to university education, I know that we all agree about the importance of have some form of examination—a module could be good-quality personal finance education and the critical included in the examination process—that allows them role played by a sound grasp of basic mathematical to show some level of expertise in such life skills, which skills. Support from the finance industry and a range of they will need to take forward? I have a passion for good resources play their part in supporting schools to middle schools, so I suggest that that should happen teach pupils how to manage their money well. when children are aged from nine to 13. In that way, whatever course they choose after the age of 13, be it It is true that young people are growing up in a vocational or academic, they will at least have proven materialistic world for which they are often not fully that they have those life skills. prepared. As my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Claire Perry) said, the “Got to have it now” culture means that young people have high aspirations for Mr Gibb: My hon. Friend makes an interesting point. branded or designer goods, often without the means to Those are the kind of issues that the PSHE review will pay for them. They have unrealistic expectations about consider. We want to ensure that the quality of PSHE the lifestyle that they can afford, which are fuelled by teaching in our schools improves. That is the key driver the glittering trappings of celebrity. of the review. My hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon The hon. Member for Darlington quoted Benjamin made the important point that our generation—I like to Franklin, but I shall quote Mr Micawber from Dickens’s associate myself with his generation—was cushioned “David Copperfield”: from its financial mistakes by rising house prices, which “Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen provided equity to pay off consumer debts. That is not pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty available to the current generation. pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result We all have a job to do in moving young people’s misery.” aspirations away from that empty and often destructive Those aphorisms are as true today as they were in the perception of what success means. Our determination nineteenth century. Borrowing more than one can afford to raise academic standards in all schools and for all to repay is one of the most serious social problems young people, regardless of their background, is about facing the UK today. British consumers are considerably high achievement and stretching aspirations. Developing more indebted than those in continental Europe. Between children’s intellectual capabilities and interests is a direct 1999 and 2007, household debt increased by 125% while antidote to materialism. Alongside that, young people household income increased by only 40%. The Office must acquire a sense of responsibility. They need to for National Statistics estimates that around 10% of all contribute to society as responsible citizens and not households have problem arrears and are unable to take wild risks. They need to learn to live within their make minimum payments in one or more of their means. financial commitments. The Government are serious about taking action to help people to manage their Kevin Brennan: I understand why the Minister will debts. not today give us the conclusions of the curriculum We want to ensure that individuals facing financial review that is under way, but does the first key difficulty can get advice early rather than waiting until recommendation of the report—that personal financial their problems become more difficult to resolve. The education should be a compulsory part of every school’s new Money Advice Service has a statutory function to curriculum, which I take to mean all taxpayer-funded enhance people’s understanding and knowledge of financial schools, including free schools and academies—fall within matters and their ability to manage their own financial the terms or the remit of the curriculum review and the affairs. It provides free and impartial information and review of PSHE? advice. Those consumers who find themselves in high levels of debt will continue to need specialist debt Mr Gibb: We made it very clear when we announced advice, and the Money Advice Service, with its consumer the review of PSHE education in schools that it is not financial education remit and national reach, is well possible for PSHE to become a statutory element of the placed to take a role in the co-ordination of debt advice national curriculum. However, it is in the remit of the services as part of its existing services. review to recommend that elements of PSHE should be I have another quote; this time it is from Shakespeare. compulsory if it believes that strongly. As Polonius advised his son— Kevin Brennan: Just to be clear, does that include making those elements compulsory in free schools and Kevin Brennan: Neither a borrower nor a lender be. academies? Mr Gibb: The hon. Gentleman has said it for me. Mr Gibb: The national curriculum applies only to “Neither a borrower nor a lender be.” maintained schools. The rules that apply to academies go through their funding agreements. The review will Can he carry on? consider that issue. The extent to which those elements “For loan oft loses both itself and friend, will apply to academies depends on the funding agreements, which maintains the approach to academies taken by And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.” the previous Government. I will give way to the hon. Gentleman. 995 Financial Education15 DECEMBER 2011 Financial Education 996

Kevin Brennan: It is good advice from Polonius, but consult widely on the number of maths GCSEs in the we must remember that he is widely regarded as an old light of the review, and will consider evidence from the hypocrite. Perhaps he is not the best person to quote. pilot of the pair of maths GCSEs referred to by my He was a silly old fool. hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk. Application of mathematics and methods in mathematics Mr Gibb: It was good advice to his son. will also inform decisions. We will look carefully at the evaluation of the pilot. Kevin Brennan: Perhaps Iago might be more appropriate. “Who steals my purse steals trash; ‘tis something, nothing; Kevin Brennan: What have not been mentioned so far, but have been endorsed by the hon. Member for North ‘Twas mine, ‘tis his, and has been slave to thousands; Swindon (Justin Tomlinson), are the qualifications in But he that filches from me my good name personal finance offered by the Institute for Fiscal Robs me of that which not enriches him, Studies. Has the Minister had a chance to examine And makes me poor indeed.” them and form a view on how suitable they are for pupils? Mr Gibb: Very good indeed. The green-eyed monster is there as well. The hon. Gentleman also makes the Mr Gibb: We will examine them as part of the curriculum case for rote learning of English literature. That is review, but our first priority is to establish what knowledge missing from our schools. The more poems we can children need. That will then feed into the qualifications. recite in our early years, the better. The hon. Gentleman We have also benefited from Alison Wolf’s review of must have learned that passage many years ago. qualifications in schools. A process is under way to ensure that every qualification offered by schools is of To be successful and to achieve aspirations, young sufficient size and quality, and commands respect in the people need to be able to stand on their own two feet. real world among employers and further and higher They must organise themselves, prioritise, manage money education institutions. Those are the factors that will and work independently. That needs to start from an determine whether a qualification continues to be recognised early age. Primary schools must lay the foundations by in performance tables. raising standards of arithmetic and securing a confident progression on to secondary schools. I am also mindful Simon Hughes: The Minister rightly concentrates mostly of the many reports of young people leaving school on primary and secondary schools, for which he is without the most basic knowledge of mathematics. We directly responsible, but does he accept that it is also are committed to improving attainment levels in maths important for young people to receive financial education and to ensuring that all children leave primary school elsewhere, for instance through the youth services? After fluent and confident in arithmetic. We are studying all, they spend much more time outside school than at evidence on the most effective ways of teaching arithmetic school. Will there be, as it were, a draft proposal for in primary schools and we have read the reports and consultation after the Government have formed a view listened to the speeches of my hon. Friend the Member but before they finalise their proposals? I realise that for South West Norfolk. this is controversial, but it seems to me that it would be In the current secondary mathematics curriculum, wise for the Government to say “This is our thinking pupils must achieve fluency and confidence in a range now that we have taken all the evidence, but before we of mathematical techniques and processes that can be form a final view there will be a debate in the House and applied in a wide range of circumstances, including a short time in which the public can respond.” managing money. The kinds of calculations that people should be able to do are set out in the report, “Financial Mr Gibb: My right hon. Friend has made a legitimate Education and the Curriculum” by the all-party point, with which I agree. Our intention is to consult parliamentary group. There is a suggested example of a widely on the curriculum review. There is an important GCSE question. It asks what Sophie should do with set of decisions to be made. We have received nearly £4,300 that was left to her by her grandfather. She has a 6,000 responses to the call for evidence, and we will choice of two accounts. The first pays 3.1% on a monthly report on them shortly. The draft programmes of study basis and the second pays 3.25% annually. The formula will be published during the next year and beyond, and n on page 41 is “AER=100[(1 + r/100n) - 1]”. If one can there will be wide consultation on them. Even before master that, one knows all one needs to know about they have been published, there will be a great deal of how to calculate compound interest. consultation with stakeholders and subject specialists. Young people need to be confident and competent We want to establish a consensus in the country about consumers. They need to be able to work out when a what we want children to be taught. However, we must supermarket deal is not what it seems. For example, slim down the curriculum and differentiate it from the when supermarkets offer a deal on buying two small school curriculum in order to identify a body of knowledge packs of something, they need to work out whether it is that we want all children to have acquired. How it is really cheaper per litre or per kilogram than buying one taught is a matter for teachers, and will depend on their larger pack. In fact, I have found in some supermarkets professionalism. that it is more expensive to buy one larger pack than to Financial education is also an important strand of buy two smaller ones. personal, social, health and economic education. We The Government are currently reviewing the national know from the Ofted report “PSHE in Schools”, which curriculum, including the curriculum for maths. The was published in July 2010, that provision for financial all-party report on financial education and the curriculum education is patchy. Some schools have not yet got to will feed into the review, and the review will ultimately grips with the economic well-being and financial capability ensure that the GCSE reflects its conclusions. We will strand of PSHE, which was introduced in secondary 997 Financial Education15 DECEMBER 2011 Financial Education 998 schools in 2008. The aim of the review is to determine North Swindon, and on getting 100,000 people to petition how we can help schools to improve the quality of for today’s debate. More broadly, I pay tribute to the PSHE teaching, while giving teachers enough flexibility role that Martin Lewis has played in improving public to enable them to judge for themselves how best to awareness of finance issues through his website and deliver PSHE. We have finished collecting evidence, and other media. When I was a Minister with responsibility will publish proposals for public consultation next year. for consumer issues, he was very supportive of a reform The financial education curriculum report will play an that I introduced and from which I hope some Members important part in helping us to draw conclusions for the here might have benefited. I refer to the measure on 0% purpose of the PSHE review. credit card offers under which repayments by consumers Good-quality teaching is also fundamental. If we henceforth went on the most expensive debt first—exactly want an education system that ranks with the best in the the opposite of what used to happen, when credit card world, we need to attract the best people and give them companies would pay off the 0% debt first and leave outstanding training. There is strong evidence that links people with a very high rate of interest on any remaining teacher quality, above all other factors, with pupils’ balances. That is the kind of understanding that consumers attainment. Our plans for initial teacher training show need to have when taking up so-called 0% credit card the Government’s commitment to recruiting the very offers, including on arrangement fees. best graduates into teaching, securing better value for Knowing how to manage money and be a savvy money from ITT and reforming training. There is a consumer are vital life skills in an increasingly complex focus, then, on the most important elements of being a world, but why do more young people not start learning teacher. this at school? That is the question at the heart of In 2012-13, we will prioritise places on primary ITT today’s report. As a former head of economics in a courses offering a specialism in mathematics and science, Cardiff comprehensive school, I am well aware that this and in 2013-14 we expect to adjust financial incentives issue has been on the agenda for many decades. I can to favour trainees on specialist primary courses with a remember some of the earlier initiatives on improving good A-level in mathematics, science or language over financial education in schools, including the early days those on generalist courses. For serving teachers, the of school banks, when young people were encouraged mathematics specialist teacher programme aims to improve to make deposits in the school bank, often supported by the practice of primary maths teaching by improving the local branch of their bank or building society. mathematical subject knowledge and pedagogical approach Education is about giving young people the skills and and by developing teachers’ expertise to provide effective knowledge that they need to get on in life, which is why professional development. More than 3,200 teachers every child should learn not only the three R’s at school are currently on that programme. but about pensions, saving, borrowing and mortgages. The all-party group’s report on financial education As the report shows, despite many of these initiatives and the curriculum is an important report. It is grounded down the years, the provision of financial education in solid research and data, with practical solutions and across the country is still extremely patchy, as the Minister a commitment to ensuring that young people receive acknowledged when he referred to the Ofsted report. the education that they need to become confident That is why we would have had compulsory financial consumers. Much can be achieved by supporting finance education in every school last September, through personal, education, working with those in the finance sector, social and health education, under plans that the previous finance education experts and schools. There is huge Government set in train in the then Department for enthusiasm among teachers and young people, and we Children, Schools and Families before the last general will give careful consideration to the report and all its election, again with the help and support of Martin recommendations. Lewis from MoneySavingExpert.com. We said that financial education should be a compulsory 3.31 pm part of the curriculum, as part of PSHE, with improved training and tools to give teachers the confidence to Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): May I first apologise teach it. The law to make that happen was going through to House as I may need to leave before the debate’s Parliament when the general election was called last conclusion, depending on how long we run on for? year. However, as we heard earlier, those on the Conservative I congratulate the all-party group on financial education Front Bench, including the current Schools Minister, for young people on producing its report, and I pay refused to support it—probably for other reasons, to do tribute to the hon. Members for North Swindon (Justin with their objection to the sex education provision in Tomlinson) and for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) PHSE—and so the plans were scrapped. and my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington There have been 18 months in which no progress has (Mrs Chapman) for the work that they put into it. been made, which is why the report is so welcome. It [Interruption.] Did I miss somebody out? I beg the gives us an opportunity to try to find a way forward, pardon of the hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Mark and perhaps a cross-party consensus, on a vital issue for Garnier). Does anyone else want a mention while I am the long-term good of our country. I am therefore on my feet? I pay tribute to everyone who has been pleased that the e-petition calling for financial education involved in the report. It is very thorough and much to become a compulsory part of the curriculum has work went into taking the evidence. It is of the standard been a success and that it has sparked today’s debate. of a Select Committee report—perhaps even better The report is also timely, as there is a review of the than some Select Committee reports. curriculum under way, as the Minister said, which gives I also congratulate Members on getting Martin Lewis the Government a perfect opportunity to listen to the to help with the report, although it sounded as though thousands of people who are backing the campaign. As that was not too difficult for the hon. Member for I said, every child should learn how to manage their 999 Financial Education15 DECEMBER 2011 Financial Education 1000

[Kevin Brennan] Kevin Brennan: I can see that the hon. Lady is itching to intervene. money. It will set them up for the rest of their lives, and financial education lessons might also enable them to Elizabeth Truss: Is it not about leadership, as the teach their parents a thing or two. reality is that many academies and, indeed, private Indeed, my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield schools follow or tack along with the national curriculum? (Yvonne Fovargue)—who is on the Front Bench, in the It is the role of the Education Secretary and the Department Whips’ corner—sent me an e-mail yesterday after we to indicate what kind of things students should know talked about this issue. Hon. Members will be aware when they leave school. that the Prime Minister praised her yesterday for her work with citizens advice bureaux. She said: Kevin Brennan: I am sure the hon. Lady is right; she “One of the side effects of the project I managed delivering to thinks deeply about these subjects and makes intelligent schools/colleges was a rise in demand for debt advice from the contributions. The report, however, states: parents…They talked to their children and realised there was a “Personal finance education should be a compulsory part of problem.” every school’s curriculum.” She continued: If that is going to be delivered, there must be some transmission mechanism. I am afraid that history teaches “There has to be sufficient quality free debt advice available to cope with this demand in the local area—and the signposting us, and future events will teach us, that exhortations needs to be sensitive and appropriate too. Teachers need to think from Secretaries of State—no matter how talented or about how they would deal with the issue—perhaps a session eloquent they be—are not sufficient to make things from the local CAB?” a reality on the ground. As I say, there has to be a To which she adds: mechanism to make it happen. In thinking about this issue, the Minister will need to “if it’s still around that is!″ clarify what the role of the national curriculum will be This is therefore a timely moment for a debate on in a schools landscape where most institutions will not financial education, with the review of the curriculum be required to follow it. How will that fit in with the under way. We in the Opposition will be looking carefully original vision of a national curriculum to be taught by at what the Government come up with when they all schools across the country, as introduced by Kenneth conclude their review. Baker, now Lord Baker, who was the Secretary of State However, I think there is a paradox and perhaps when I was a teacher back in the 1980s? How can the some confusion at the centre of the Government about Minister ensure adequate teaching of financial education the curriculum. As I understand it, the Schools Minister if most schools will ultimately be free to follow their and the Secretary of State are driven in their review of own path? the curriculum in part by a desire to give more freedom to teachers, head teachers and schools to teach as they Damian Hinds: The shadow Minister says that a think appropriate for their local communities, with transmission mechanism is required. Does he agree more autonomy for schools and head teachers. However, with me that if practical maths were made part of the at the same time, Ministers—driven perhaps by the GCSE syllabus for each of the main awarding bodies, desire to generate the right kind of headlines—continually such a transmission mechanism would exist? demand a specific approach to teaching all sorts of subjects, including history, as favoured by the Schools Kevin Brennan: That is for 14 to 16-year-olds. If Minister and the Secretary of State. At the same time, GCSE maths is taken between the ages of 14 and 16, there is a big push, backed by money, for more and young people would indeed receive some of this provision. more schools to convert to academy status or become The hon. Gentleman is correct about that, but the free schools, thereby no longer being required to teach report goes much further in its recommendations for the national curriculum. On the one hand, therefore, making financial education compulsory across all ages the Government’s policy seems to be to exempt most in the curriculum. schools over time—if their current plans continue—from teaching the national curriculum, while on the other Damian Hinds rose— hand they are revising the national curriculum to ensure that schools teach more closely what they want them to Kevin Brennan: I will give way again in a moment if teach. At some point, some genius in the Department the hon. Gentleman is dead keen. All right; I will carry for Education will have to square that circle and explain on. how those two things will be delivered. The Government are correct in their desire for people It is paradoxical, and perhaps even absurd, that if the to take responsibility for their finances in order to Government get their way, we will have a national reduce unaffordable debt, but they have to get the ball curriculum that the vast majority of schools will not rolling, which means that they need to find some way of have to teach. It will not matter what anyone recommends getting this going in our schools. in a report should be made compulsory: it will not be deliverable unless there is some stick in the system. The Government cannot decentralise and at the same time Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): Does my hon. dictate from the top, because ultimately the whole project Friend agree that although we might want to teach will collapse in on itself. many subjects as part of the curriculum, unless we specify them, there is always the risk that they will not be taught? Practical maths has been mentioned, but Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) (Con) rose— different parts of the subject might be taught. Some 1001 Financial Education15 DECEMBER 2011 Financial Education 1002 subjects—I would include emergency life support skills 9% calculation would allow them to be a lot wealthier among them—are so important that we must specify under the new system than they would have been under that they have to be taught. the old.

Kevin Brennan: I have sympathy with the Minister Kevin Brennan: I am not sure they are going to be a over the difficulty created by having more and more lot wealthier, quite frankly, but it is absolutely right that subjects shoved and squashed into the curriculum. the reality of the Government’s proposals should be Education Ministers of all parties will know that it is a explained and that there should not be scaremongering. difficult task as they come under pressure to include all I think we would absolutely agree about that. I agree sorts of subjects in the curriculum. My point is that we that it is important that young people should consider need to be absolutely clear what we are talking about. If applying to university because, ultimately, it is quite the Government accept the report, they will have to go a clear that that benefits them in the long term. We lot further than simply including some practical questions should be absolutely clear about it. Yes, the changes in GCSE maths papers. What my hon. Friend the have reduced the payments but ultimately the fees being Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) said is absolutely paid are much higher. The hon. Lady must accept that correct. the reality is that the overall debt that they are incurring There are examples of good practice out there. I shall has increased greatly as a result of her party’s collaboration not go into them in too much detail, but some schools in the changes to student finance since the general around the country could link up with local credit election. unions. This has not been mentioned much in the I want to make a couple more points before I conclude. debate, but it is a great way to encourage responsible The Consumer Financial Education Body previously saving in community-based organisations and to teach funded the Personal Finance Education Group’s budget, young people about the responsible use of money and but that has fallen by 80% since the spring and the staff about saving. has been cut since the CFEB became the Money Advice Service. So far, as I understand it, the MAS has declined Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): My hon. to state how much of its £44 million budget was spent Friend touches on the matter of teaching. Does he on school budgets. I think we would all welcome some agree that, as statistics from the Graduate Teaching clarity on that. Training Registry obtained by The Times Educational Supplement show, from November 2011 overall applications The survey from the all-party group found that in for training courses for secondary maths teaching fell England the provision of personal finance education is by more than a quarter? Bearing in mind that the ad hoc, with only 45% of teachers reporting that they teaching of personal financial education is going to have ever taught the subject. New research by HSBC require an element of teaching maths, does he agree has shown that 5.1 million savers under 25 do not know that the Government should encourage more teachers the interest rates on their savings account. If they had to apply to teach the subject? received good financial education while growing up, they would be more aware of interest rates. Furthermore, the survey found that a high percentage of people Kevin Brennan: We have heard about those worrying across all age groups had no saving goals. statistics in the course of our deliberations, but my hon. Friend is absolutely correct to emphasise their importance We need greater financial education and this is a very and the need for urgent action by the Government. good and thorough report from the all-party group, but we need the Government to show that they are genuinely We need to get to a point at which all children realise committed to ensuring that every child is entitled to a that by saving now they can be prepared for the future, good finance education. I think that is the ambition of but that is only possible if they get the right sort of the hon. Members who compiled the report we are financial education. In particular, we should not let considering today. children from neighbourhoods of lower socio-economic class suffer because their schools do not offer good financial education. The hon. Member for North Swindon 3.48 pm quite correctly said that with the huge increases in tuition fees that young people going to university are Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): It is a pleasure facing, there is even more need to give serious thought to speak in this important debate and I am pleased to to what will happen when our children go to university see that so many Members have attended, particularly and have to deal with the debts they will incur as a on the Government side of the Chamber, and especially result. In fact, Martin Lewis himself said that on a day on which there is a one-line Whip and, apparently, “in the 20 years since student loans came in, we’ve educated our a by-election. It is good to have so many people here to youth into debt when they go to university, but never about debt.” debate this important issue. I am also pleased to follow It is extremely important that we do that. both the Minister and the shadow Minister. I thank the Minister, in particular, for his warm words about our report and for the assurances he has given us about the Tessa Munt: Was it not also the case that Martin role it will play in the curriculum review. I also thank Lewis had a very robust session on the “Politics Show” the shadow Minister for his warm words, although I about a month ago when he explained quite clearly that think he was trying to push at the edges of political young people should not be afraid of going to university point-scoring— because under the current regime it is cheaper? If they understood the fact that the threshold was £21,000, not the £15,000 it was under the previous Government, the Kevin Brennan: It is my job. 1003 Financial Education15 DECEMBER 2011 Financial Education 1004

Andrew Percy: Alas, perhaps it is. I must say, however, know. Having shared a flat with him, along with another that I will not be able to match the exchange of of our hon. Friends, I can certainly attest to his competency Shakespearian quotes between the two Front Benchers— in all things financial—and perhaps to his being frugal as well. I am the antithesis of that, having made some Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): The bard from incredibly bad financial decisions when I left school and Brigg. went to university, including getting on the conveyor belt of credit card debt while at university and getting Andrew Percy: I am certainly not, as my hon. Friend student loans even though that was the year before interjects, the bard from Brigg. It is not going to happen, tuition fees came in. So I left university with an awful alas. lot of debt and then did two years of postgraduate To return to the report, I thank the Minister for study, which I funded myself, which meant getting into meeting me and my hon. Friend the Member for North even more debt. I am still paying off those debts today, Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) shortly before its publication. and I do not mind the education side of them—it is all The Minister will recall that I said that if the Government those other lifestyle debts that one builds up on credit did not take it seriously, I might well end up dousing cards that I am still lumbered with to this day. myself in petrol and setting myself on fire, but I will not It has been good to have a partnership of two people have to make that protest any more, not least because I with different experiences of managing their debt looking cannot afford the petrol at the current prices and because at this issue. I was proud to be in the top set of my we have had a positive response. comprehensive school in Hull. I was quite bright and I thank all my friends on both sides of the House managed to get a GCSE in maths at grade C although I who sat on our inquiry. They included my hon. Friends have always struggled with maths. I got good A-levels, a the Members for Congleton (Fiona Bruce), for Wyre degree and postgraduate qualifications but I am still Forest (Mark Garnier), for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie completely and utterly incapable of working out interest Morris) and for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric payments, APR and all the rest of it. I could not tell you Ollerenshaw) and the hon. Member for Darlington what I pay in mortgage interest, Mr Deputy Speaker—I (Mrs Chapman), as well as myself and my hon. Friend just pay up every month. I suppose I am an example of the Member for North Swindon. It was a thoroughly the people we have talked about and at whom the report valuable experience and I think we all enjoyed taking is aimed. This is not moralising about debt. We have part in a cross-party inquiry on such an important been very clear in saying that this is not about saying issue. Because we conducted it in the way we did, on that people should not get into debt or about educating Select Committee terms and by hearing evidence, I people never to get into debt. It is about providing think we all felt that the hours we spent doing that were people with appropriate skills. probably some of our most valuable since getting elected. One can wonder whether a lot that goes on in here is Kevin Brennan: Is the hon. Gentleman at all worried having any impact or making any difference, particularly that he has put his name to a report that includes a in some people’s cases, but on this issue we all felt that recommendation that would bar him from teaching in a the experience was valuable and that we were engaged primary school? in something important. Some hon. Members will have read our report, which Andrew Percy: I understand that that would not be is very comprehensive. I am not allowed to use props so applied retrospectively—and a very sound recommendation I shall not hold it up. As can be seen from the executive it is on those terms. I shall come on to that in a moment, summary, we have recommended that this subject should because I taught in a primary school the year before I form part of the national curriculum. We want it to be was elected, and I had to teach maths. That experience compulsory across schools, and I shall say something has led me to the conclusion that we should absolutely about the mechanics of that in a moment. It is important ensure that primary school teachers have better maths to get some statistics into the debate about why this is so qualifications. Although I did not do them a disservice, important. As people who have read our executive the children I taught would have benefited from being summary will have seen, it states that, according to a taught by somebody who had not struggled with maths learndirect study: as I did. I managed to scrape a GCSE C grade. That is “Two-thirds of people in the UK feel too confused to make the why we have supported the minimum grade of B for right choices about their money and more than a third say they primary school teachers. don’t have the right skills to properly manage their cash.” My hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon Sadly, we have seen higher and higher levels of insolvency outlined most of our recommendations and stole quite in recent years, and we know that personal debt levels a lot of my speech in the process. He also talked about have exploded in the past 10 or 15 years. the inquiry process and stole my three bullet points on I am not part of the generation about whom my hon. that too. I have been left with something to say, however. Friend the Member for North Swindon spoke. I am It is important to remind ourselves why this subject is so part of the generation after, having got on the housing important. A lot of the research that we looked at in market only last year but with considerable debts, which preparing the report was quite frightening. The situation I have spoken about before. I am not one of those who out there is even worse than I expected. Research by will see the big increases in house prices that will take EdComs in June 2009 found that by the time children care of all those nasty credit card debts. reach the age of 17, more than half of them are or have Let me explain why I got involved in all this. It has already been in debt. A YouGov survey in 2008 found been a good partnership with my hon. Friend the that 70% of 18 to 24-year-olds were already in debt. As Member for North Swindon because he is extremely we have heard, with tuition fees and the way life is financially competent, as anyone who knows him will today, that figure will not go down any time soon. 1005 Financial Education15 DECEMBER 2011 Financial Education 1006

A survey by M&S Money found that some 14 to placed on PSHE, which is already taught in schools, 18-year-olds are given no help with basic money matters because it will be used to support the drive for standards by their parents. Indeed, 19% of parents have never in mathematics. I think that that provides a real opportunity discussed with teenagers how to spend money, and 32% to raise the profile and importance of PSHE across the have yet to discuss how to budget or even describe what country. a budget is. Most telling of all is the report compiled in I will give a couple of examples from our report to March this year by Credit Action which found that a demonstrate this. As my hon. Friend the Member for lack of financial education has cost Brits nearly £250 million North Swindon said, we did not want to come up with a in bank charges and penalties alone. I know that we are wishy-washy report that said it would be easy to have all grateful to Martin Lewis for helping us to get our financial education, knock on the Minister’s door and money back in those matters. have him say, “Thank you very much. It looks lovely, The lack of financial education is a growing problem. but I am afraid that it’s not going to happen.” Therefore, We seem to be sending young people out into the world, we have tried to work in the direction of Government which is increasingly financially complex, without providing policy and to provide practical solutions. them with the skills they need. I support the Government’s Members who have looked at the report will have drive to reduce burdens on schools, to slim down the seen that on page 38 we demonstrate clearly where in curriculum and to mandate less to schools, but in that the maths curriculum the financial education elements process we must never allow ourselves to scale down to can fit nicely—we are grateful for the help we had from the extent that we remove the basic capabilities that we mathematicians. Those have been split into three headings: expect our young people to have when they leave school. money and transactions; risk and reward; and financial Our view is that the financial education component landscape. The money and transactions elements includes should be a key measure. being able to do compound interest calculations with a I listened to the shadow Minister’s comments about calculator or spreadsheet, to set up a spreadsheet to do PSHE. We gave some consideration to that. One of the calculations involving percentages and to use foreign big fights in our inquiry, not only between panel members exchange rate information to make calculations. For but between those who gave evidence to us, was about financial landscape, the competencies include the ability whether financial education should just sit in PSHE. As to do reverse percentage calculations and to work out a former practitioner who was expected to deliver PSHE, an inflation rate for a given time period, which is very I felt strongly that it was not suitable, not least because important and we hear a lot about. That involves real it is not examined. As the hon. Gentleman, as a former maths skills, not wishy-washy stuff at all. teacher, will know, and indeed as head teachers told us That can be supported over in the PSHE curriculum during the inquiry, if a subject is not examined, schools by talking to young people about the products that they do not necessarily accord it the importance they should. might have to make choices about. For example, we can For three years, I taught in a very difficult school in talk to them about managing money, budgeting, the Hull, in one of the most deprived catchments in the subjective issues of risk and reward and what is right for country. I had to deliver PSHE, but we had so many them in particular situations. That is not something we other pressures on us to raise standards, such as working felt could fit easily into one or other area, which is why with grade C-D borderline kids so that in the next year’s the solution we have come up with is deliverable within league tables we would do a little better and would not the current curriculum without putting extra pressures be picked out by the local media as the worst-performing on schools. school. In better-performing—dare I say it?—more middle- One of the recommendations that has been referred class schools, teachers may be able to indulge themselves to is that of having a co-ordinator on this in schools, a little more in developing the PSHE curriculum because and that should be someone from the senior leadership they do not have quite the same pressures on them. team within the school. That is important, because one However, I am afraid that in a lot of schools, despite the of the big drivers when I first started teaching in the professionalism of teachers, the subject often takes a early 2000s was the drive towards more cross-curricular back seat. When the Arun Youth Council and My working, and it happened for a bit and then we lost Money Young Advisers came to give evidence, I asked focus on it. Having someone at a sufficiently senior level one young person, “What do you think of PSHE?” His within the school to drive that cross-curricular agenda response was, “Well, it’s a bit of a doss.” Sadly, that is and link the two subjects is important, and the educational the situation in a lot of schools. Some fantastic work is professionals who came to speak to us were very supportive being done across the country in PSHE, and we were of that approach. provided with evidence of that and told about it by other young people. Although PSHE is important and Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): My hon. Friend must be part of the solution, we concluded that financial raises an important point about the leadership coming education had to be examined so that schools place the from within schools, but does he agree that there might necessary emphasis on it. also be a role for the private sector and financial institutions We made it clear that there should be a financial to lend their support to make pragmatic advice available? education element within maths that can be clearly defined and packaged to young people. It is not simply Andrew Percy: My hon. Friend must have been reading a case of putting in a few questions that look like they my notes over my shoulder, because that is exactly the are about financial education, as the shadow Minister point I was about to move on to. I will be brief, because said. It is about packaging a lot of the education and I know that other Members wish to speak. We took a skills that are already there and saying clearly to young lot of evidence from financial institutions and banks, people, “This is financial education, and this is why we and one of the challenges we set out for them in the are doing it.” We can also help to improve the importance report relates to training. It would be pointless if I went 1007 Financial Education15 DECEMBER 2011 Financial Education 1008

[Andrew Percy] this rate, we are not going to get everybody in, so we need a little discipline, because the winding-up speeches in to deliver financial education to any of my pupils, will have to start at about quarter to 6. We should bear because I am not financially competent, so there is an in mind that, if people are going to speak for 19 minutes issue of training. But we have identified that role as one each, other people will not get in, and I want to ensure that financial institutions could work on more closely. that everybody gets in, so self-discipline will be very They do a lot already, and anybody who knows Barclays helpful if we are to look after each other. will have seen its money skills programme. I visited Barclays in my constituency recently, and through the 4.7 pm fantastic Sobriety Project it was doing some excellent Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): Thank you, work with Goole high school students who are at risk of Mr Deputy Speaker. I can promise that I will not take exclusion and with vulnerable young people in the too long over my speech. town. It is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Nationwide has a programme, and so does Capital Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy), and I congratulate One. I do not want to risk missing out any institutions, the hon. Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) but many are already engaged in financial education, so on the all-party group and all Members who have we have set them the challenge of coming together, contributed to the report. getting their resources kitemarked and perhaps being I was lucky enough to be involved with a financial co-ordinated by a charity. Financial institutions have a education project for 10 years when I worked for Citizens real role to play in supporting such education in the Advice in St Helens, and we started from a very low curriculum, and in helping to develop the training to base, with schools that had never before thought of which my hon. Friend refers. having such a project. We also worked with tenants’ and I am aware that many other Members wish to speak, residents’ groups and with a wide range of organisations, but I shall just mention a couple of other organisations and I was fortunate to employ a passionate member of that support our proposal, as they should be read into staff who gained the first-ever teaching qualification in the record if nothing else. First, and most importantly, financial education. That was vital in moving our project there is one in my constituency. After the report came forward into schools, because we found that teachers out, I was inundated with e-mails from various were not confident about teaching the subject. They organisations, one of which I received from one of the understood that it needed to be taught, but they did not two credit unions in my constituency, Hull and East have the confidence to include it in the curriculum. Yorkshire Credit Union, to which I think the shadow I therefore totally support the idea of a financial Minister referred. It informs me that it would very education champion in schools, because in our work we much like to support our campaign on financial education, found that the maths department was not always the because it is very much in line with the ethics and one that came forward. In one school in which we objects of its movement. worked, the drama department was keen on the idea, Nationwide contacted us to say that and an excellent play, which I think is on a website “the report looks very comprehensive and is something Nationwide somewhere, was written about the three little pigs living very much welcomes.” in their houses. We also offered qualifications, including The Money Advice Service issued a statement to the ASDAN qualification and open college network qualifications, so schools and organisations involved in “welcome the APPG on Financial Education & Young People’s report on Financial Education and the Curriculum.” the Work programme, with which we also worked, could offer qualifications to young people. That was We were congratulated by the Scout Association, which important in making teachers realise that financial education also has an interest in the area, and the Institute of was an actual subject. It was not an add-on; it was an Chartered Accountants in England and Wales important part of the curriculum. “call on MPs to back the introduction of mandatory financial However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff education during Thursday’s debate.” West (Kevin Brennan) mentioned, there was an unexpected So there is a lot of support from a range of institutions side-effect; we had not anticipated the rise in the number and organisations. of parents coming to us with their debt problems. Finally, I emphasise again that our proposal is not Students would go home and say, “Today I learned all about watering down the curriculum, nor is it a wishy-washy about annual percentage rates. Let’s have a look at our thing with which to moralise about debt. It is about real household finances as an example.” The parents would maths skills; about using real-life experiences such as sit there and think, “We’re beginning to hit a problem phone contracts, student tuition fees, mortgages or here. We are noticing that we cannot pay all our bills whatever to support the drive for standards, about and that we’re borrowing off one credit card to pay off which we are all passionate and we know the Minister is another.” absolutely passionate; and it is about ensuring that There absolutely needs to be a referral mechanism for young people enter this complex financial world with advice about debt. It has to be sensitive and local. As the skills to make better decisions than I, and many my hon. Friend also mentioned, it could be the local other people who have gone before them, have made. citizens advice bureau. We were fortunate; somebody from the CAB delivered the financial education classes Several hon. Members rose— and they could talk to the parents and refer them to a specialist money adviser. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I do The only thing that I would like to take issue with is not want to introduce a time limit, but I am very the part of the motion that mentions “irresponsible” concerned about the amount of time being taken. At debt. I can honestly say that in 24 years of working for a 1009 Financial Education15 DECEMBER 2011 Financial Education 1010 citizens advice bureau, I never saw anyone who had Yvonne Fovargue: I would certainly encourage that, aimed to get into debt. Debt was often caused by but I would like to see a more strategic approach to irresponsible lending; innumerable people came to us debt. I would hope that the Money Advice Service with debt, cut up their credit cards, sent them back and provides that. However, it would have to have the money were immediately sent a new credit card. Now, obviously, to be able to provide such a service. There is no use there is also the rise of the payday lenders, who will roll having a strategy but no money to give to the organisation. over debts when people say that they cannot pay them. I It is no use putting money into debt advice if the really feel that there needs to be regulation on that. generalist advice to support it is not there. The agency Most people take out loans intending to pay them depends on all levels of funding and a lot of it is going. back, whatever the level of interest. However, anyone’s I support the motion and hope that we can look at a circumstances can change. One of the most distressing package of measures to tackle the rising problem of cases that I ever saw involved somebody whose child debt and personal insolvency. was born with a disability. They had taken out an awful lot of loans to pay for the conversion of their property and were relying on the disability benefits for the child, 4.15 pm who died unexpectedly. They were left with a mountain of debt. That was responsible, not irresponsible, borrowing. Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): I add my We need to look at the causes of debt. I agree with the congratulations to subscribers to MoneySavingExpert.com hon. Member for Brigg and Goole—we should not be on petitioning us for this debate. I also congratulate my moralising. Debt happens. It could happen to any of us. hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin If a person walks down the street and gets hit by a car, Tomlinson) not just on securing the debate but on his they are likely to end up not being able to pay their bills. work in steering the all-party group on financial education for young people, on which I am pleased to serve as I also agree with my hon. Friend the Member for vice-chair. The group’s report is a credit to my hon. Darlington (Mrs Chapman), who is not in her place, Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy), that education is only 25% of the solution. Debt advice who has led the inquiry. has to be available and there has to be regulation on the advertising by payday lenders and debt management I have been leading a strand of the group looking at companies, which offer to get people out of debt but financial education in further education, so my remarks often push them further into it, to make sure that they will draw on the relevant insights of that inquiry, which do not make a bad problem even worse. will issue its full report in the new year. I have been joined in that inquiry by the hon. Member for Scunthorpe Lyn Brown: May I ask my hon. Friend the question (Nic Dakin) and I extend my thanks and appreciation that I asked our hon. Friend the Member for Darlington for his involvement and expertise and that of my hon. (Mrs Chapman)? Does she, like me, see more such cases Friend the Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier), in her surgery week by week? Are there fewer people who also participated in our inquiry. offering good-quality and independent advice who we Like all hon. Members, I am particularly fortunate can refer constituents to? Is that not the biggest problem when my own constituents contribute to my work, and that many of our people face at the moment? it would be appropriate to make particular mention of two who have been in touch with me about the issue: Yvonne Fovargue: I completely agree. I am extremely Caroline Stephens and Trisha Snowling. Caroline is a concerned for the future, when the transition fund ends. maths and personal finance teacher who has campaigned To be honest, I do not know where the advice agencies tirelessly to promote the cause, not just through her are transitioning to—some are transitioning to oblivion. work but by writing to councillors and MPs to alert There is also the ending of legal aid for debt. The them to current developments from a practitioner’s Minister mentioned the importance of early advice. point of view. Trisha has a breadth of experience in Much of the funding for early advice is going, because financial careers and has been an articulate correspondent legal aid funding is now for advice only at the point of on the issue in recent months. She summarised to me eviction, which is absolutely not cost-effective. neatly the consequences of a lack of financial literacy Yes, I totally support the idea of compulsory financial for people’s ability to spot a bad deal in later life: education in school, but it has to be part of a package. “They don’t bother to read the small print on a finance Part of the package should be to ensure that people do agreement—why would they? It’ll be in a language they didn’t not get into debt with payday lenders, do not go to the study at school.” fee-charging debt management agencies but do have Our inquiry set out to look at the response to the access to early advice to help them when they realise issue in further education to identify what distinguishes that they are getting into debt. They need to be able to the experience in that sector from that in schools. Since realise when the debt is becoming a problem. there had been little assessment or co-ordination of colleges’ approach to personal financial education, the Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): I group began by conducting a nationwide survey of have been in another debate in another place, so forgive current practice in colleges. An overwhelming majority me for intervening, but when I was Chair of the Select of survey respondents—nearly 97%—thought that financial Committee on Education and Skills, we did a lot of education should also be provided in further education work on the issue. We found that many financial institutions institutions and 84% of responding colleges believed put money into CABs. Would my hon. Friend encourage that students’ inability to manage their finances was a the private sector to carry on with that? There are many cause of failure to complete their courses, which should demands on its time, but Nationwide particularly was worry all of us who want young people to have the best putting money straight into the CAB. possible chance to equip themselves for working life. 1011 Financial Education15 DECEMBER 2011 Financial Education 1012

[Duncan Hames] The inquiry’s forthcoming written report will go into greater detail about the nature of the challenges that we We supplemented the survey with oral evidence sessions saw in further education and the means that we suggest to test those initial findings against the experience and to address them. expertise of college principals, student service managers I will end with a few remarks about what the inquiry and students themselves. An oral evidence session a has told us about financial education in schools. The fortnight ago bore out many of the survey’s emerging evidence shows that further education as a sector is conclusions about students’ financial awareness. We defined by choice and provision for a diverse range of welcomed an impressive group of students from two student needs, from basic literacy and numeracy to colleges in London to hear their perspective on both the running a business or preparing to attend university. financial education they had received so far and their That means that the starting position of college students attitudes to money more generally. The students we met reveals the results of their previous education, which were of course those who have really engaged with this might not have equipped them with the capability to learning opportunity. However, I was most struck by deal with the challenges that students increasingly face, the fact that, although they understood about saving, including their financial responsibilities. they themselves identified that they did not know much I therefore argue that financial education in schools about borrowing or debt. They also emphasised the needs to lay a universal foundation or baseline in financial importance of their family background and home literacy for every student. Students who go on to further environment, not necessarily to the specifics that they education will be able to build on that by using had learned, but to their underlying attitudes to money qualification-based study, which further education colleges and their confidence in dealing with it. are in a good position to deliver in a wide range of A dominant theme of the inquiry’s evidence so far is curriculum choices. That would allow those who have that there is good financial education provision in a benefited from financial education in the school curriculum number of colleges around the country, but that it does to progress later in their education. It would also limit not reach anything like the majority of students, even in the extent to which further education colleges have to, the colleges that are leading the way. The reduction of in the words of one witness, “play catch-up” and help entitlement funding, which some colleges were using to students to retread what they missed in their school deliver their personal financial education through tutorial years. time, has had an effect on the sector’s ability to deliver I know that time is short, so I will conclude by such education. However, the evidence that we have encouraging Members to look out for the APPG’s received suggests that provision was sporadic even before second report in the new year and by urging them to that funding change. It seems that some colleges may support the motion. have considered that modest provision within tutorial time as sufficient. We heard some compelling accounts of quite 4.24 pm sophisticated offers of financial education from City Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con): It is a great college Norwich and New college Swindon. However, pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Chippenham even such colleges that are heavily geared towards financial (Duncan Hames), who is doing a lot of work on the literacy and business education are enticing only some further education part of the all-party group’s inquiry. I of their students to take up their financial education have had the pleasure of being in a couple of his inquiry offer. sessions. I extend my appreciation also to my hon. What we have seen so far is that financial education is Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy), most effectively delivered when it falls naturally within who has done a fantastic job of chairing the evidence a student’s chosen core curriculum. In further education, sessions that have resulted in the group’s report, and to there is a wide array of opportunities to provide that. my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin Where that is not the case, there are many challenges in Tomlinson), who has done a really outstanding job in achieving the required coverage of financial education putting the group together. As we have heard, it has had in a student’s programme. record membership right from the start. It would be wrong of me to start my speech without also expressing Mr Sheerman: I am impressed by what the hon. my appreciation of Martin Lewis, whom I met when he Gentleman is saying about his research. Has there been first came before the Treasury Committee. He was not any indication of what are the most successful online only an extraordinarily fine witness but quite an tools? Just as the Government are keen on using online inspirational one. facilities for careers education, does he think that that I come to the subject from the point of view of being would be a good way to learn about debt and credit? a member of the Treasury Committee. The House has heard a lot from teachers and from Members with Duncan Hames: We were made aware of online resources constituency experience, but I consider the matter with that students could use to supplement lectures that were regard to how we run the economy of our country and available as part of their further education college’s deal with the crisis that faces us. provision. I think that it was at New college Swindon When we as a society send children to school, we do where students could register for an additional qualification our very best to equip them to face life and give them to supplement the choices that they were already making the best opportunity possible to have a successful life and their normal lectures, which was largely learned and career. We teach them basic subjects such as maths, independently and had testing arrangements which allowed reading and writing, computer skills, sex and relationships them to study at their own pace. I offer that as one education and how to be good citizens. That is all example in answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question. extremely good and important, but we signally fail to 1013 Financial Education15 DECEMBER 2011 Financial Education 1014 equip people to be financially literate. The evidence of the curriculum, we would not just provide for directly that is all around us. We are one of the most personally funded schools but provide a lead for other schools to indebted nations on the planet, with a staggering follow. That is an incredibly important point. £1.5 trillion of personal debt. That is about £25,000 for The Money Advice Service is part of the solution. It every man, woman and child. To put that into the announced earlier this week the start of a new strategic context of more meaningful numbers, this country has oversight function for financial education. I shall quote about 10% or 11% of the population of the EU, yet we from its press release, because it is always very good to have 50% of the personal debt. That is quite a frightening hear such excellent civil service-speak. It says that the statistic. review is As constituency MPs, we see on an all too frequent “to inform and improve the provision of financial education for basis people coming to us with financial problems, and young people in the UK. Firstly, mapping the range of education as we have heard, Citizens Advice is seeing a ballooning initiatives funded by the financial services industry, to create a of debt problems. We are in the midst of a financial single view of the landscape; secondly, commissioning new research crisis, and the banks are accused on a daily basis of into education and behaviour change - to both identify global causing it. They are quite rightly accused of making best-practice in the field of financial education; and examine irresponsible loans to customers in the housing market, whether successful types of intervention in other fields, for example yet we all too frequently gloss over the elephant in the health or drug education, can be applied to the area of money.” room. For a bank to make an irresponsible loan, it That sounds fantastic, but there is a simple solution, needs an irresponsible consumer to take on that debt. which we keep repeating: we should put financial education Our response to that situation is to increase the regulation on the curriculum in schools. We should get the Money of the financial system, and in so doing increase the Advice Service to concentrate on those adults who have cost of financial services to consumers. not had the chance to get a financial education so far, It is absolutely right that we examine the regulatory and who are in desperate need of it to help them to deal system carefully and do our very best to ensure that we with the problems that they face as a result of being neither have a repeat of the financial crisis nor walk financially illiterate. into the next, as yet unidentified, financial crisis. However, As part of the all-party group inquiry team, I heard a part of the solution to the current problems has to be great deal of interesting comments. I think I went to greater financial literacy. We would not have irresponsible almost every single meeting, although I might have borrowers taking out irresponsible loans if they knew missed a couple. As we have heard, help is out there. what they were doing. Financial institutions go into schools to assist with Another topic that we have heard about this afternoon financial education, but many teachers feel intimidated is payday loans. We know that as many as 3 million by the subject, presumably because they in turn did not people will take advantage of that service in the next receive a financial education. We have also heard that year, and in some cases they will pay annual percentage provision is sporadic: sometimes financial education is rates in the thousands. Yet someone could easily pay a very good, but sometimes there is none at all. One higher rate of interest on a small, unauthorised overdraft, member of the Arun youth council said that his school by the time the cost of the levy from the bank, the spent more time teaching him how to put on condoms interest and the penalty charge has been taken into than they spent teaching him about money. It was a thin account. However, our response is to consider harder day for bananas that day at his school. regulation of payday loans. Surely the answer is greater The question is: how do we get financial education financial literacy, so that an individual is less likely to into the curriculum and where do we put it? Of course, need any sort of loan. there is a maths element—frankly, financial education is Kevin Brennan: Would not another possible answer the type of thing that could enhance maths teaching. be regulating unauthorised bank overdrafts with more Teaching a child about compound rates of interest is rigour? not an exciting subject, but teaching a child that buying a pair of football boots for £125 on a credit card with Mark Garnier: I want to get away from the need to an APR of 26% and paying that over six months will regulate everything. We need to ensure that people are cost him a lot more than if he paid cash gives that child in a stronger position to manage their own money and both a good example of how maths works and a lesson accounts properly, so that they do not get into that in financial facts. problem in the first place. If they did get in trouble, they If I were Martin Lewis, I would be able to work out in would be in a far better position to evaluate the best my head what that compound rate of interest would solution. mean, but I was an investment banker and I am afraid I am completely unqualified to do so, as I would be if I Kevin Brennan: I accept the hon. Gentleman’s point were a footballer. However, to limit financial education of view on deregulation, but does he not see the paradox to maths would be a huge mistake. Although maths can in supporting the all-party group’s report, whose first handle the quantitative side of things, it can do nothing key recommendation is that personal financial education about the qualitative side. We need people to make should be a compulsory part of every school’s curriculum, solid, judgment-based decisions. Maths will give people while also supporting the deregulation of the schools the skill to answer the question of whether they can system, which would ensure that schools did not have to afford something, but the question of whether they teach anything of that kind compulsorily? should buy something is just as relevant. Mark Garnier: That is a neatly and well made point, If I live in the centre of a city, the question of but the hon. Gentleman will remember my hon. Friend whether I should buy a car is a relatively simple one—there the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss) is plenty of public transport so I might not use it, making the point that, by having financial education in parking might be a problem and so on. However, for an 1015 Financial Education15 DECEMBER 2011 Financial Education 1016

[Mark Garnier] into the need for better financial education for young people in schools when I say that it has been a real unemployed person living in the country with just a few privilege to serve on that inquiry. It has been one of the hundred pounds to their name, the question of whether most fulfilling roles that I have undertaken in my short they should spend their last savings on a car so that they time in this House. I pay tribute to the chairman of the can find a job and make themselves more employable or group, my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon keep the money to live on is much more difficult to (Justin Tomlinson) and to the chairman of the inquiry, answer. Many people are simply not equipped to make my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole such a subjective evaluation. (Andrew Percy), for their vigour in leading this work and for the fact that this week, a substantial report on Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Three financial education and the curriculum has been published. constituents have written to me to congratulate my hon. I have to say also that they have stolen all of my good Friend and colleagues on the work they have done on lines. this matter. They said how important their work is and During the course of the inquiry, we took evidence hope that it results in some improvement. from dozens of witnesses. I pay particular tribute to two Mark Garnier: I am incredibly grateful for that witnesses from my constituency. David Black, who has intervention and thank my right hon. Friend very much recently retired, was head teacher of Alsager high school. indeed. He has spent years co-ordinating volunteer educators who advise young people in schools in Cheshire and To continue my point, if we equip the next generation train teachers to deliver financial education under the to answer the supplementary question to the one I just banner of “debt cred”. Will Spendilow of New Life described—should I set up a business with my last few church, Congleton, was one of those volunteer educators. hundred quid?—we will begin not only to address the Last year in Cheshire, 7,000 pupils benefited from this financial independence of our citizens, but to find the “debt cred” advice. Those pupils are fortunate, but what key to unlocking economic growth in future. of the many across the country who receive no such The fact that we are questioning whether financial advice? Even more worrying is the fact that many education should be on the curriculum is a mistake. I teachers do not feel up to the task of teaching financial fail to understand why it has not been on the curriculum education. for years. As we have discussed, the APPG has just published its report. The Minister has shown great Our inquiry found that the whole area of financial interest in it and has read through it. We will keep capability urgently needs addressing. Some 70% of 18 to pressing to ensure not only that he reads it again and 25-year-olds are in debt. People in their 20s are the least again, but that he initiates its recommendations. capable age group in making ends meet, choosing financial products and balancing a budget. This lack of financial I shall conclude by mentioning the work of organisations capability has cost Britain nearly £250 million in bank such as PFEG, which we talked about earlier. Its work charges and penalties alone, and 71% of people say that is incredibly important—it does a valuable job promoting a lack of basic financial understanding is to blame for financial education and co-ordinating the efforts of the debt. financial services industry to get expertise into schools—but we must recognise its efforts by delivering the ultimate While young people are faced with a financial world goal: a curriculum-based financial education which of baffling complexity, they are vigorously targeted at addresses not just maths and the quantitative elements an early age by retailers and lenders and assaulted by a of money management, but the qualitative and judgment- consumer culture that raises for them unrealistic lifestyle based elements of financial literacy. expectations. Our report found that two thirds of people in the UK feel too confused to make the right choices about their money and more than a third say that they 4.34 pm do not have the right skills to manage cash. Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): I apologise to you, In the 12 months to the third quarter of 2011, Mr Deputy Speaker, and to the Minister if it turns out approximately one in 361 people became insolvent, to be necessary for me to leave the Chamber before the which is significantly higher than the annual average of end of the debate. one in 1,655 people over the past 25 years. It was clear It is almost a year to the day since I spoke in this to us that without fundamental changes to the way in Chamber about the need for better financial education which individuals manage their money, the problem in schools. I talked about the patchy or non-existent would continue to grow. Financial education is a long-term current provision in so many schools and about the sad investment and a solution to what is now a widespread results of the lack of financial capability, which I witnessed national problem. Teaching people about budgeting in over many years in my community law firm. It was their personal lives is also an essential basic component apparent not only in the levels of debt but in the to equip the work force with the necessary skills to breakdown of relationships and health. There is a huge succeed in business and drive forward economic growth. cost to society of providing debt advice—essential though Where will young people improve their financial literacy, it is. Currently, citizens advice bureaux receive around the costs of which are clearly set out in our report, if £27 million, much of which is for debt advice. not in school? It is not from their parents; our inquiry The main thrust of my argument then was that better found that a third of teenagers’ parents had never financial education is necessary because prevention is talked to their children about budgeting. They will not better than cure. Shortly after I spoke, the all-party learn it from the banks; the era of the trusted family parliamentary group on financial education for young bank manager who knew people and took a personal people was founded. I am sure that I speak for all my interest in their financial welfare has long gone, although colleagues who have served on the parliamentary inquiry many banks do provide support for financial education 1017 Financial Education15 DECEMBER 2011 Financial Education 1018 in schools, which is valuable. It would be wrong to rely “if you asked me for the number one thing, and that is to have a on voluntary organisations to give advice, although senior member of staff responsible for it as the champion, who many do provide excellent advice; organisations such has enough resources or enough clout to draw people to work at as Christians against Poverty, which was originally founded it. Then you will find it will come together.” to help those in debt, has now moved into the proactive It is vital to ensure that members of the next generation area of providing courses on personal financial are better equipped than those of the present generation management, and I commend it for that. However, such to make informed financial decisions, for the sake of organisations should not be relied on to provide financial their well-being and that of our whole society. That education, particularly in schools. That void makes it applies to a host of areas: mental and physical health, essential for financial education to be taught in schools relationships and family life, career prospects and to all young people before they enter the world of work entrepreneurialism. I believe that, over time, investment and are faced with some of the financial challenges to in financial education will reap exponential benefits for which I have referred. our society, and I urge the Minister to give constructive support to the recommendations in the report that was Let me now comment on the recommendations. The published this week. Let us work towards prevention first is that personal financial education should be a rather than cure. compulsory part of every school’s curriculum, and that it should be assessed. David Black, whom I mentioned earlier, has said: 4.43 pm “Unless you test, it will not happen.” Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): I am delighted I recall an amusing exchange at one of the inquiry’s to follow my near neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member evidence sessions. I said, “As a mother of two teenagers, for Congleton (Fiona Bruce). I know that nothing focuses a pupil’s mind like an Like many others who have spoken, I congratulate exam.” One witness responded, “And nothing focuses a my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin teacher’s mind like an exam.” We also found that in Tomlinson) and his colleagues not only on securing the 20 countries across the globe financial education is debate, but on their continual hard work, the pressure already compulsory, and has been for many years. It that they have put on the Government, and the publicity would be interesting to see whether they share our that they have secured—including the use of Martin nation’s debt problems. Lewis to press home the importance of the issue. The launch of the all-party group on financial education for Kevin Brennan: The report says, and the hon. Lady young people attracted more than 200 Members of has just said as well, that personal financial education Parliament, and it is now the largest of the all-party should be a compulsory part of every school’s curriculum. groups. I congratulate it on its report on financial Does the hon. Lady mean that the Government should education, which was released this week and which make it a compulsory part of every school’s curriculum, deals comprehensively with the subject. or was that merely an exhortation that she thinks should I do not wish to be labelled a grumpy old man—I am be out there in the ether? sure, though, that my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) will soon label me Fiona Bruce: I believe that it is such an important one—but I must refer back to when I was a lad. issue that space should be made for it in both the PSHE and the maths curriculums. Another of the Andrew Percy: It was in black and white then. recommendations makes that very suggestion: that financial education should be cross-curricular, overlapping with Andrew Bingham: Yes, it was. maths and PSHE. Pupils made clear to us that they I remember my late father taking me to Williams and enjoyed financial education. One said: Glyn’s bank to open my first bank account and my “I thought it was really interesting because, personally, I learnt walking out proudly with my Williams and Glyn’s plastic a lot and a lot of my peers said they learnt lots too.” piggy bank, which I suspect I still have somewhere and We all know that we learn more when we enjoy a is probably worth a lot on eBay. They say that servicemen subject, and it seems that including financial education can always remember their Army number; I can still in the maths curriculum could well aid maths learning remember my bank account number from that day. overall, which would be an important added-value benefit. When I came of age, there were few temptations for Again and again, teachers told the inquiry of their somebody my age to acquire extra funds or credit. In sense of inadequacy when it came to teaching financial those days, it was the bank or it was nothing. Credit education. It was almost a refrain. They talked of cards were unavailable without a parent or guardian to significant barriers to teaching it well, particularly their guarantee it and wages were paid in cash. Consequently, own lack of confidence in their knowledge of the subject, we lived in a pay-as-you-go world—to coin a modern-day as well as a lack of awareness of suitable resources. One phrase. We were not educated in financial matters in of the most important recommendations in the report is school in the 1970s, because there was not the multitude to establish a quality kite mark from a trusted body, of financial opportunities—and, indeed, pitfalls—available which would assure teachers that if the subject took up to young people today. valuable curriculum time, that time—if Members will When I refer to young people, I do not refer exclusively pardon the pun—would be well spent. to school leavers but to those who left school a few The last recommendation that I would like to years ago, have built up savings and are now plunging mention—by no means the least important—is that into the world of credit or embarking on the next stage there should be a financial education champion in every of their life—getting their first mortgage or signing a school. Another head teacher giving evidence to the tenancy agreement—and who require financial knowledge inquiry said: to navigate these potentially treacherous waters. 1019 Financial Education15 DECEMBER 2011 Financial Education 1020

[Andrew Bingham] the total potential cost is of the iconic item that they feel desperate to own. Being armed with that knowledge When people turn on the television today, read the might not prevent them from buying that item, but they newspaper, surf the internet or look at magazines, they will I hope make a rational, informed decision and ask are bombarded with adverts offering them cheap money, themselves whether they need it and whether they can easy money and, in some cases, apparently free money. really afford it. In the long term, that will spare people In fact, some claim that it is possible to borrow enough much misery, as well as the further consequences that money to get completely out of debt. When we pick up excessive debt can have for people personally and for the Sunday newspapers, out drop a multitude of pieces their families. As was said earlier—by an hon. Gentleman of papers, one of which is usually advertising cheap who is no longer in his place—that knowledge will also money. enable people to make decisions about savings. This is Borrowing money is inevitable, and we all have to not all about debt: it is about savings, investments and borrow at some point in our lives, whether for a mortgage pensions. On the Select Committee on Work and Pensions, or whatever, but it is important to do it prudently—a we are looking at auto-enrolment and how to judge one word from the past—and sensibly. To do that, people pension against another. That is another story, but need to understand what these companies are offering, having informed financial knowledge and advice could to read beyond the quick, snappy headline and to make help people to make better decisions about such matters. an informed decision. To do all that, they need to Several years ago I produced an e-book, which was understand finance, the methods by which it can be designed to plug into a computer. It was called “Living obtained, the cost of that finance, the conditions attached On Your Own” and was aimed at students leaving home and, more importantly, the short and long-term to go to university and living away from their families consequences of failure to adhere to those conditions. for the first time. It dealt with all the issues that many of Not only must young people contend with this wealth us take for granted: council tax, rent, utility bills, registering of advertising and pressure, but they live in a very with a local GP and so on. It even had some easy-cook, different world from that of their predecessors in my healthy recipes. The book also contained an interactive generation and that of many in the House. As has been budget planner, in which students could enter all their alluded to, they have phone contracts, credit cards, incomings and outgoings, and which gave a figure for payday loans, tuition fees, store cards—the list goes on how much money they had left at the end of the week or and on. These are all things that are part of modern-day month. If they were overdrawn, the figure went red. We life but which were either unheard of or unavailable in gave the e-book away to students—I think we gave away days gone by. Added to that, there are many alluring 200—and those who got back to me said that the most ways of paying for luxury goods—televisions, holidays useful thing in it was the budget planner, because it and so on—that appear to be completely free of any showed them in simple, stark terms whether they were credit charge yet are full of pitfalls buried in the small living within their means or beyond them. print. There is a further implication of our young people How many people realise, when they buy a television not having the level of financial literacy they need when on a buy now, pay later deal, that if they miss the they leave education. Those young people are the next payment date, they are automatically locked into a generation of our wealth generators, entrepreneurs and three-year finance agreement potentially on an annual business builders. They are the people we will look to in percentage rate that can be more than 20% and perhaps five, 10 or even 20 years to build businesses, create jobs as much as 30%? Indeed, how many actually understand and grow the economy. We cannot expect them to be what APR really is? able to do that successfully if we do not give them the And how many people understand the pitfalls when tools they need while they are being educated. Anyone they get older and decide to buy a car? A car might be who goes to the bank for an overdraft or business loan advertised with low monthly payments—“You can have has to have a business plan and know how best to make this car for £159 a month”, the advert might read. the money work so that their business can survive. If we However, it might not explain until the small print that do not get this right, we will not have those people and at the end of the term the person will not own the car, we will pay the price later. because a significant final amount will still be When I was at school, we did subjects such as metalwork outstanding—balloon payments, they are sometimes and woodwork. I can turn on a lathe and wooden called—and that, if unpaid, they will have to give the lathe— car back and have nothing to show for it. We live in a world where peer pressure exerts a huge Andrew Percy: Show-off! influence, especially on young people, to have the latest mobile phone, trainers or designer clothing. It matters Andrew Bingham: It is not a question of showing off: very much to young people and it drives their shopping my hon. Friend never saw the results. In fact, my habits. When that is coupled with the myriad easy ways mother still has the table lamp that I made at school in to pay, we have a cocktail of debt and ensuing misery. woodwork to this very day— Financial education will not stop that—after all, people will always want to buy goods; the economy Damian Hinds: Still waiting for it to come on! depends on it—but I believe that financial education will do several things. First, it will enable people to tell whether a deal is as good as it seems. There is an old Andrew Bingham: I didn’t do the electrics I left that to adage: “If it looks too good to be true, then it usually my dad. is.” Financial education will enable young people to Schools have moved on. They now teach subjects ascertain whether a deal is good or not, and see what such as IT, media, technology— 1021 Financial Education15 DECEMBER 2011 Financial Education 1022

Andrew Percy: French. One of the many constituents who urged me to take part in this debate wrote to me to say that financial Andrew Bingham: I wouldn’t go that far. education was “a hugely important concept. Unfortunately I got myself into Education moves to fit the world it provides for. I some financial difficulties in my early 20s and for the last 5 years I fully support today’s motion, as education needs to have had to work 2 jobs in order to repay the debt. I have very move again to suit the financial jungle that is the world little spare time and am unable to afford holidays or luxuries that in which we operate today. others take for granted. I still have debt to pay off but I now ensure that I keep myself educated financially to make sure that I am getting the best financial products for my needs. I have learnt 4.53 pm the hard way, but if this education was provided in schools, I feel fewer people would end up in the situation I found myself.” Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): I join colleagues That provides a perfect illustration of why this debate is in congratulating my hon. Friends the Members for so important, but why is it so important right now? North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) and for Brigg and We face a crisis of debt and, as Martin Lewis has Goole (Andrew Percy), and all hon. Friends and colleagues pointed out, we live in a time when the stigma of debt who have contributed to this excellent report. I am has somehow been diminished. We also live in a world pleased to hear the Minister’s clear statement that the where we are all increasingly bombarded by offers of report will feed into the curriculum review. Like many credit, as my hon. Friend the Member for High Peak Members, I have come across some terrible cases of neatly pointed out. I do not know whether I am the only constituents who have found themselves in dire financial Member who regularly receives calls on my House of trouble as a result of not having the tools to understand Commons office telephone carrying recorded messages financial matters. It is tragic that such situations arise as offering me cheap debt deals or spurious payment protection often as they do, and with the growing complexity of insurance compensation. [Interruption.] I see from the the financial marketplace, combined with the growing reaction of some hon. Members that I am not the only ease with which people can access it, the case for the one. I hope that this is not a comment on my own Government addressing financial education is stronger financial circumstances. than ever. Not only by telephone marketing, but through the It is welcome that the coalition Government are in internet and increasingly through mobile phone apps, the process of undertaking a curriculum review. I support credit is more available and more heavily marketed than the clarity of vision with which Ministers have carried ever before. In some respects, this need not be a bad through this and the many other vital reforms of our thing—credit can help people to manage their finances, education system. I understand the Secretary of State’s and legal credit at reasonable rates is infinitely preferable desire to simplify and slim down the core curriculum to to the alternative of loan sharks and doorstep lenders. focus on the essential subjects that will enable us to However, the constant bombardment becomes a real compete in the 21st century, and to ensure that it is problem when people lack the tools to understand uncluttered, with a strong emphasis on numeracy and concepts such as APR—annual percentage rate—or to literacy. However, like many other colleagues, I believe develop a proper understanding of the real costs of the that personal financial education is one of the elements debt they are being offered. It is a shocking fact that that are vital to our ability to compete in this century only one in three adults in the UK knows what APR and protect the life chances of our constituents. stands for, let along what it means financially. As my hon. Friend the Member for Wyre Forest It is particularly concerning that many of these credit (Mark Garnier) neatly set out, financial education also services are heavily targeted at students who are managing has enormous relevance to the national scene today. their finances for the first time—perhaps without the Today’s debate and the excellent report of the all-party benefit of the useful book of guidance produced by my group on financial education for young people provide hon. Friend the Member for High Peak—and the level valuable tools for dealing with that problem, both nationally of financial knowledge among many university students and locally, in all our constituencies. We need financial does not seem to be as high as we would hope. The education that gives people a clear understanding of surveys showing that only 36% of adults knew the budgeting, as my hon. Friend the Member for High definition of APR showed that this fell to less than 31% Peak (Andrew Bingham) pointed, and of the costs and for people under 30, and I have heard from student uses of debt. representatives a number of worrying stories of students We should not see financial education as an entirely actually boasting about the level of APR they were negative problem; it should also provide an opportunity. paying on a loan, believing that a higher APR meant a More financially educated students today will be better better loan. As the right hon. Member for Bermondsey placed to be the next generation of business people and and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) pointed out, there entrepreneurs tomorrow. Businesses are crying out for is strong demand for students to be better informed on greater financial skills, and by providing better financial these issues. education we can meet that need and provide those We have debated the issue of high-cost credit separately, skills. A higher degree of financial literary among the and I continue to believe that there is a need for some public will also mean people are better able to see and sort of system of flexible caps and that there is potential understand the problem of balancing budgets at the for a levy on high-cost lenders to help to finance the town hall and in Whitehall, and the costs of long-term cost of debt advice and financial education. I am hopeful debt. Vitally, it means that fewer people will get into that the Government’s research into this area will produce financial difficulties in the first place, which bring such both those results. However, in a world where such huge financial and social costs to themselves and their credit is as prevalent as it has become and when students families. are having to take on more long-term, low-cost debt as 1023 Financial Education15 DECEMBER 2011 Financial Education 1024

[Mr Robin Walker] I know that many hon. Members want to speak and that we are all anxious to get away today, so I will part of the process of getting higher education, it is conclude by saying that financial education should be clear there is a demand for them to be better prepared brought into the statutory curriculum as soon as possible. to understand and manage it. As a proud English member of the Select Committee on All these reasons point to the urgency of including Welsh Affairs, I am pleased to see that Wales, like personal financial education in the curriculum, but they Scotland, has already taken that step. I believe this is an do not dictate how it should be included. There is not excellent example of how the UK Government can necessarily any contradiction between the Government’s show their support for the respect agenda, respecting desire for a simple curriculum that focuses on the basics the devolved Assemblies and the students, teachers and and the inclusion of this basic tool for life in the heads who all tell us the benefits of financial education. curriculum. In my view, and in the view of the all-party group report, there is no need for a new subject to be 5.1 pm added or for time to be set apart in the timetable. Rather, the provision of better financial education can Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): be included in the teaching of maths and PSHE. It is nice to speak at this point in the debate, when Indeed, as Carol Vorderman has pointed out, making everybody has said everything. maths more relevant and giving it a firmer basis in the May I begin my adding my plaudits to those already real world might help to deal with some of the stigma heaped on my hon. Friends the Members for Brigg and that many students attach to it. I well remember as a Goole (Andrew Percy) and for North Swindon (Justin teenage pupil being profoundly uninterested in algebra Tomlinson)? I was a mere foot soldier in their regiment and trigonometry, but waking up and paying attention as they steamrollered this through and I must say what when maths touched on the finances of a business or an efficient manner—[Interruption.] I was sometimes the cost of a shopping trip. I suspect many pupils feel cannon fodder, yes. the same. We paid even more attention when people If I were a little younger, I could have had when I was from outside school came in to talk about what they at university the e-book that my hon. Friend the Member did, so I welcome the report’s recommendations about for High Peak (Andrew Bingham) had and it might bringing in more outside experience. have saved me from being part of that generation that We should not pretend that that would be a wholly got one credit card to pay off another before I realised new approach. Many of the best teachers, schools and that I was not gaining very much by it. colleges already employ such an approach to make their I cannot remember ever being taught financial education lessons relevant and engage their pupils. Tudor Grange at any time in my history at school. People from the academy in Worcester has forged strong links with local Post Office came in once in the 1950s and I think I still businesses, such as Worcester Bosch, and the Worcester have a Post Office account with 10 shillings in. If college of technology has seen several hundred students anyone finds the book, I would be grateful for that. I take money management programmes as additional spent 27 years as a teacher in secondary education and I elements of their studies, showing that students want never saw financial education taught; indeed, one of the more financial education even when it is treated as an surveys in the report shows that 45% of teachers have extra. never seen it taught in school. The only time I touched Many organisations, from banks and accountancy on it—it is a pity the shadow Minister is not here—was firms to the citizens advice bureaux, small businesses when I taught American history in the 1920s and 1930s, and entrepreneurs, already engage with schools to talk with the Wall street crash, the depression, and banking about the importance of financial knowledge, planning and shares. I was going to say to the shadow Minister and budgeting. The Institute of Chartered Accountants that it takes a good history teacher to teach decent runs a competition on financial knowledge for schools economics. in Worcestershire. The best examples from among our In my constituency, I came across a scheme run by schools, which include many schools in Worcestershire, two guys from Fleetwood, Paul Freeman and Martin would probably need to see no change if financial Hull. They are community support officers and they education were to be introduced as a statutory part of noticed that in the areas where there were problems, the curriculum, but the inclusion would make a real kids did not understand the idea of saving. This goes difference to the overall picture, allow better co-ordination back to what my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton and support those who are leading the way. (Fiona Bruce) said: they wanted instant money. A scheme The inclusion of financial education in the curriculum was developed in conjunction with a primary school would send a signal to all head teachers and all schools and pupils were rewarded with school pounds, but the that it should be a core part of the teaching of maths school had to take part in various business exercises to and PSHE. It is one of the basic skills with which pupils earn the prizes that the kids had to save up for. The need to emerge and from which they will benefit hugely. scheme has been developed through other schools and As the all-party group’s report clearly shows, the greatest it is now working with a primary school outside my reason for teachers saying that they do not currently constituency, with the involvement of a secondary school provide financial education is the pressure on curriculum in my constituency, Rossall school—I mention it for a time. Giving it a place in the curriculum would therefore reason—whose lower sixth has already set up its own remove the greatest single bar to its successful delivery. I businesses and it is running them as a practical do not believe that would be onerous in any way and demonstration. Rossall school is a public school and when I have discussed it with local heads, as I did at a the primary school that it is helping is a state school. recent meeting with a group of Worcester primary The example is double edged: the private sector is heads, I have received unanimous support for its inclusion. helping the state sector and we have the involvement of 1025 Financial Education15 DECEMBER 2011 Financial Education 1026 one of those schools about which the shadow Minister I am not suggesting that if we carry out these kept talking. They do not use the national curriculum recommendations, we will end boom and bust tomorrow, but, because they are good schools, they are already but it might be a start. way down the line in financial education. One thing that we in the all-party group have been 5.7 pm trying to do is help state schools to catch up. Having said that, none of us underestimates the problem and I Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): As my hon. am grateful for the Minister’s generosity in taking our Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric proposals on board. Perhaps this debate is timely, given Ollerenshaw) has just said, it is difficult to think of that a review of the national curriculum is coming anything original to say at this stage of the proceedings, forward, but none of us who has been a teacher so I shall be mercifully brief. I must start with the underestimates what we are asking teachers to do. The obligatory fawning to my hon. Friends the Members for hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) and Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) and for North Swindon others have said that we need confident teachers with (Justin Tomlinson) for the genuinely outstanding work really good back-up to do this. they have done on the all-party group. The way that group has grown is not just impressive but phenomenal. Fiona Bruce: Does my hon. Friend agree that we In double-quick time it has brought to the British ought to consider including this subject as an element Parliament an issue that matters so much and about of teacher training in colleges? which so many people are genuinely bothered. The report and the depth of the analysis and work the group has done are already helping to stimulate debate here Eric Ollerenshaw: I think we need to deal with this in and more widely—and will do so further. all kinds of ways. Today’s debate is not about approving every line in On the remarks we have heard about maths teachers the report. I would have loved to remind the shadow and the lack of maths, if we want this kind of revolution Minister, if he were here, that the motion does not say to begin, teachers need to be utterly behind it—not just that there should be compulsory financial education in theoretically but practically, and with that confidence. free schools and academies or that it should be part of As my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole the national curriculum in primary schools. The key has said, we had a debate in the all-party group about phrase in the motion is: personal, social and health education and maths. I still warm to the applied maths idea, partly because I would “That this House…believes that the country has a duty to equip its young people properly through education to make have been like my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester informed financial decisions”. (Mr Walker). I scraped through maths because I had to, but then forgot most of it, as was obvious in my I could not agree more. subsequent financial career. So I veer more towards the I shall not go into examples of the problems that we latter approach. My hon. Friend the Member for Brigg have all seen when people have come into our surgeries and Goole commented on how PSHE is regarded in or when we have met people. My hon. Friend the some schools. Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) has mentioned that There is also the issue of back-up and time. The some people, astonishingly, think that a high APR must Personal Finance Education Group has given us a lot of be better than a low APR because it is a bigger number. support. Given the financial support that it has had These things would be funny if they were not so tragic. from some banks, perhaps it would be apposite for the When we hear about them, our natural reaction is to Minister to challenge the banking and financial institutions say, “If we get them young and educate them, we will of this country, which have suffered somewhat in the sort out all these problems.” There is, of course, as it public’s estimation, to provide the back-up that is needed says in the motion, a great advantage to equipping to deliver financial education in a substantial way. I people with the capability to make smart financial take on board what my hon. Friend the Member for decisions. There can also be a more immediate benefit, Congleton said about training and suggest that financial to which the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne support could involve the provision of money to release Fovargue) alluded. If teachers get kids to bring in teachers to train or to provide materials for schools. We material—junk mail—that they have received at home, are asking for a huge turnaround in schools if such and they discuss it, messages can then get back to home, education is to be provided properly and is not just to so there will be a beneficial impact even in the shorter be drip-fed, with some good schools doing it but more term. schools just paying lip service and trying to get by. Is Even better than telling, of course, is doing, through this subject as fundamental as hon. Members from all schemes such as junior savers clubs. I was a member of parties have said it is? I am not underestimating its the Abbey National junior savers. It used to have gold, importance. silver and bronze; I only ever made bronze, but there Time is running out and all my best lines have been you are. We have savings clubs in schools, and I pay taken my hon. Friends who have expressed the points tribute to credit unions in particular, although others far better than I could have. I think the hon. Member do this as well, which run schemes in schools, often with for Darlington (Mrs Chapman) ended on a quote and I parent volunteers and schoolchildren helping to manage should like to end on a quote from an article in The them. That is another great way to pick up experience. Independent today by Andreas Whittam Smith, who I have an issue with PSHE, however. It sometimes said that feels as though the answer to any social problem in this “the real explanation of the fall of RBS was the incompetence of country is another module in PSHE. That is true whether the British ruling and managerial classes…without having the the problem is that people are too fat or that people are foggiest idea of how business worked.” too thin, or whether it is teenage pregnancy. Whatever it 1027 Financial Education15 DECEMBER 2011 Financial Education 1028

[Damian Hinds] The second danger is ubiquity.Already, on the television and the internet, when kids are at home or out, everywhere might be, we do it in PSHE. There are limitations to there are messages about debt. There is a danger that PSHE. When one mentions it to teachers, their response introducing discussion of specific financial services too is not one that can be written down because it is just a early in schools might contribute to that feeling by groan. As a general rule, teachers do not like doing normalising and legitimising the idea that everyone uses PSHE lessons. Although report of the all-party group such products. says “only 45%” of teachers in the survey had taught As I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg personal financial education, I have to say that that and Goole, the key things are the tools, and I think that struck me as an extraordinarily large number. Almost we agree on that but perhaps differ on how best to use half the teaching population has taken on the teaching them. To my mind, the key tools and principles that of that subject. I think it unlikely that they are all help inform financial decisions are mathematics, but experts in that area. not mathematics on its own. There is also a big element In PSHE in general, and this applies also to financial of personal responsibility, common sense and some of education, there is naturally a reliance on off-the-shelf—or the maxims to which my hon. Friend the Member for more likely, these days, off-the-net—lesson plans and High Peak (Andrew Bingham) referred. Make no mistake: on input from third parties. Although I accept that the young people do not learn common sense, wisdom and banks and building societies who take part do so with personal responsibility simply by turning up to PSHE. responsibility and do not use it as a way to ram home It is a much wider issue. I would welcome more emphasis their brands, there is an element of indirect marketing. on practical mathematics at GCSE, especially at foundation It certainly gets the message out there that there is a level, although it applies to both levels. massive range of financial products, including ones that I am pleased to say that I have an original point to can get people into debt. make. We also now have an opportunity post-16, because Andrew Percy: My hon. Friend’s points are exactly raising the participation age to 18 means that more those that we identified during the inquiry and support young people who have perhaps not passed GCSE the argument for putting financial education into PSHE maths could, if we are to follow the guidance in the to support maths and raise the profile of PSHE. He is Wolf report, be encouraged to keep up maths and quite right: a lot of the stuff that is used is photocopied English. We need new, innovative, creative and engaging hand-outs. That is not teaching a subject properly. If we ways of taking on maths, and this would certainly be link PSHE with maths, we can raise its profile and the one of those. I thought that the example questions that standards of the teaching and lesson plans. my hon. Friends who constructed the report included in it illustrated very well the practical ways we could use Damian Hinds: I recognise the point, and the report the maths curriculum. stimulates such debates, but I do not agree. The introduction of these concepts into mathematics People mean different things when they talk about is no panacea. The hon. Member for Makerfield and I financial education. There is a whole continuum. If we agree on many things related to debt and personal talk about pure financial education, as opposed to a finance, but I completely disagreed with her today when mathematical way of approaching it, there are two key she implied that there was no element of personal dangers. The first I call the redundancy danger, and the irresponsibility in being over-indebted. There are of second is the ubiquity danger. None of us did financial course times when it is purely a matter of a change in education at school, and although some people have circumstances and completely unpredictable, but there great financial problems, not everybody does, and it is is also a major issue of responsibility. She was right to perfectly possible for somebody to get through life say that there are broader concerns about regulation without the benefit of that education. Had we done and too-easy access to credit that we must also address. financial education, we would have learned about cheques, The reason we need to address those concerns, even if clearing houses and endowment mortgages, and, spreading we did financial education perfectly, is that in that it out to the wider economy, the public sector borrowing market, alarmingly, the basic laws of economics, such requirement and sterling M3. None of that would be of as the way competition works and the assumption that particular relevance today. We would not have learned consumers will be rational, frequently do not apply. about debit cards and payday loans because, to all I congratulate the members of the all-party group intents and purposes, they did not exist at that time. again on the report that stimulated the debate. My view There is a real danger that although we think we are is that I would say no to adding more to PSHE and equipping people with skills, by focusing too much on specifying exactly how these things should be done at a financial services, as opposed to the underpinning principles, younger and younger age, but I would say yes on the that education may become redundant. need to refocus GCSE maths and to find new and Andrew Percy: It is true that the world does not stand creative ways to teach practical maths at 16-plus. I still, but does my hon. Friend agree that if we give would also say yes to not being afraid to say that people young people the ability to understand what is available must take responsibility, which is also a good thing to now, we give them the skills to be able to understand teach in school. products as they develop and move on into the future? 5.18 pm Damian Hinds: I cannot do geometry in a written speech without slides. I would be more tempted to go Justin Tomlinson: I will give a brief conclusion to for the underlying principles, which could enable people what has been an extremely positive debate. I thank all to understand the things that used to be there and the Members who contributed from both sides of the House things that will be there tomorrow. for taking the time to set out their support for our 1029 15 DECEMBER 2011 1030 ongoing campaign. I hope that the 100,000 people who Health Services (Disabled Children) took the time to sign Martin Lewis’s e-petition will feel Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House that Parliament has served them well today. We have do now adjourn.—(Mr Vara.) shown one of the better sides of Parliament, as we have taken a tangible issue that the public are interested in and tried to set out a way of dealing with it. I thank all 5.21 pm the members of the all-party parliamentary group Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): and the supporters, particularly the individuals and I am extremely pleased to have the opportunity today to organisations—over 1,000 of them—who contributed raise directly with the Minister, who I recall from previous to our comprehensive report. We deliberately took our debates has a significant interest in the area, a number time and were patient so that we could deliver something of concerns about services for children with disabilities. that was thorough and that set out constructively and comprehensively our case as part of the national curriculum Earlier this afternoon, I hosted a function for the review. I am grateful that the Minister and shadow Council for Disabled Children, at which its young Minister acknowledged that our delivery of the campaign ambassadors presented a film that they had made. is an example that others should follow. Interestingly, Their message was, “Young, disabled and in control”. this is not just a pie-in-the-sky request. We look at our They wanted to be seen as individuals, to be listened to international neighbours and find that many states in and to have their views and needs taken on board. The America, and Australia, New Zealand and Canada, are function made me reflect on what I had written in my leading the way in financial education. speech, because we should remember that I am talking about lots of precious individuals. It sounds generic, As part of the national curriculum review, I hope that but, when one has the great honour and privilege of today we have taken a very good opportunity to set out meeting amazing young people who are achieving so our positive case, so that we might deliver on our duty much, one realises that there is so much more that we as to equip the next generation of consumers with the individuals can do for them. Indeed, one of them referred ability to make informed decisions. to the use of personal budgets, and as we bring health Question put and agreed to. and social care together that will all become part of the Resolved, same discussion. That this House notes that young people today grow up in an Throughout my long political career locally and increasingly complex financial world requiring them to make nationally, I have been very much aware that families difficult decisions for the future, often without the necessary level with disabled children face constant battles to secure of financial literacy; believes that financial education will help address the national problem of irresponsible borrowing and support, help and access to services. Not so long ago, I personal insolvency and that teaching people about budgeting was supporting a family to make sure that they were and personal finance will help equip the workforce with the supplied with sufficient and adequate incontinence pads necessary skills to succeed in business and drive forward economic for their growing child, and I asked myself, “Hasn’t growth; further believes that the country has a duty to equip its anything changed over the years?” There have always young people properly through education to make informed been issues when services such as education and health financial decisions; and calls on the Government to consider the have been brought together, with cross-service battles provision of financial education as part of the current curriculum over who picks up the bill, rather than people putting review. the needs of the child first. Petition Given the coalition’s proposed policy changes, there are some potentially amazing opportunities—specifically Protection of War Memorials within the Health and Social Care Bill, and in the delivery of the single assessment process, the education, 5.19 pm health and care plan and the local offer, which are proposed in the “Support and aspiration” Green Paper. Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab): I have But we need to grasp those opportunities and address the pleasure and honour of presenting to the House the the issues that are seen as threats, and in that respect I petition of Ian Coleman and ex-service personnel in hope that the Minister will be able to provide some Blackpool on the subject of war memorials. It incorporates reassurances today. more than 3,000 signatures, which Mr Coleman and his Disabled children and those with complex health colleagues in Blackpool have collected. needs are disproportionate users of health services, but The petition states: they face long-standing barriers to accessing both universal The Petition of Ian Coleman and ex-service personnel in and specialist health services. The evidence from Blackpool, professionals, the voluntary sector and families with Declares that the nation’s war memorials and their surroundings disabled children is clear: if local areas are not required should be treated as special places and respected in a manner to have a clear focus on child health, disabled children which befits those whose lives they commemorate. are not given the requisite priority by local decision The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons makers. As a mother of a child with complex health urges the Government to ensure the protection of war memorials needs put it: via a more rigid enforcement of existing laws or by bringing “What’s so sad is that years have been lost because there forward new legislation to ensure that war memorials are adequately doesn’t seem to be any clinical leadership for services for disabled protected. children or even children in this area. And there haven’t been any And the Petitioners remain, etc. targets that they need to reach so they are not interested. They’re [P000992] only interested in targets and services for adults.” Sir Ian Kennedy’s recent report “Getting it right for children and young people” stated: 1031 Health Services (Disabled Children)15 DECEMBER 2011 Health Services (Disabled Children) 1032

[Annette Brooke] This afternoon I met Becky, who is at university. She drives her own car and has a specially adapted wheelchair “Those caring for children ‘are not the biggest players in the that comes apart. She puts all the wheelchair’s parts clinical system’ and are not well placed within professional hierarchies. into her Mini. It is amazing how she has been able to They often lose out to other, more powerful, professional and use her skills and aptitude and access a university patients’ groups in the contest for resources and the attention of education, but the NHS could not provide that specialist senior management.” wheelchair for her. That makes us think that we need to The Health and Social Care Bill represents an ideal do more for so many children. opportunity to address these issues. However, it does not include measures to ensure that the Secretary of I have already mentioned the restrictions on vital State, the NHS Commissioning Board, clinical networks support; it is just dreadful when a family contacts you and senates, health and wellbeing boards, clinical to say that they cannot get large enough, or enough, commissioning groups, HealthWatch or monitoring bodies nappies for children with continence issues. There are will prioritise child health. There is a concern that that disputes over who funds the service, poorly co-ordinated will perpetuate a system that is designed for adult appointments, poor communication across the system health and social care but does not work for children’s and a cliff edge in support at transition to adult services. services. Some parents are quoted in the “Disabled Children Campaigners feel that the Health and Social Care and Health Reform” report. On the complexity of the Bill has not indicated how health services for disabled health service, one said: children will be configured within the new system and “I’ve had really good experience of Health and individual wish to make sure that there is no confusion on the Paediatricians…The problems arise from the complexity of the ground as primary care trusts close and health and system and the different services your child needs”. wellbeing boards and clinical commissioning groups There is always so much praise for the individuals who are set up. are doing the work, but it is about pulling it all together I am aware that some issues should be resolved as and the structures. On the delays to getting vital equipment, part of the Department for Education’s “Support and another parent said: aspiration” Green Paper pathfinder programme. But “My daughter has a helmet and boots supplied by the Child there are concerns that that is a long-term agenda that Development Centre. She’s outgrown the helmet now and it took will not produce results for at least 18 months. In the them two months just to make an appointment to measure her meantime, there is already widespread confusion about head. In the meantime, she’s confined to her wheelchair. They how health service reform will affect disabled children. said they had the money to do it, but didn’t have the means to There has also been no demonstrable evidence that order it.” health and wellbeing board early implementers and We know about the disputes over who funds the clinical commissioning group pathfinders have been service. A parent said: asked to link their work with the “Support and aspiration” Green Paper pathfinders. “Sometimes the local authority says, ‘Well, that’s a Health issue and so the PCT should pay.’ Then the PCT turns round and There are particular concerns that the overarching says, ‘No, actually that’s an Education issue.’ It feels like we’re proposals set out in the “Support and aspiration” Green having to fight and it wastes valuable time because we have to Paper will not be deliverable unless the structures set up wait for the local authority and the PCT to meet somewhere in by the Health and Social Care Bill provide clarity on the middle about something which could be helping and making a commissioning structures and accountability for child difference now.” health. For example, the Green Paper proposes an Another parent commented: education, health and care plan for disabled children “What’s so sad is the years that have been lost because there and an overarching “local offer”, but the Health and doesn’t seem to be any clinical leadership for services for disabled Social Care Bill does not require health and wellbeing children or even children”. boards to include that in their local strategies. There is a lack of targets and a focus on adults. I know that there are many concerns about the fact that although there is currently a statutory duty to Then there are the problems with transition between provide education services identified in a statement, child and adult health services, on which one parent there is not the same statutory duty for the provision of said: health services. It is always difficult when professionals “My daughter’s been seen by 2 consultants at least twice a year from two different cultures and backgrounds are asked for the last 17 years so it shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone that to work together, but a number of issues could be she’s going to need continued monitoring and support from resolved earlier. The Bill also does not provide a platform Health as she moves into adult services. But the divide between for education providers to take part in local decision health services for children and adults is significant. Many of the making at health and wellbeing board level, which will professionals we have come to rely on shake their heads about it…but there’s nothing they can actually do beyond offering to make integrated commissioning more difficult. I would attend a meeting with us where they can hand over to someone be really grateful for the Minister’s views on that. who works for adult services.” The current scrutiny on the health service created by In the past few years, we have spoken a great deal in the the Health and Social Care Bill represents a unique House about the transitional period. We are aware of opportunity to address long-standing problems with the issue but we must keep working at it. the services used by disabled children. Families with disabled children describe these barriers in the latest The Health and Social Care Bill does not provide any report from Every Disabled Child Matters and The clarity on how the reformed system will affect the child Children’s Trust, Tadworth entitled “Disabled Children health system. Child health services operate on a separate and Health Reform”. They include delays in getting system to that of adults, with separate structures and equipment—wheelchairs, for example. relevant partners—for example, education providers. 1033 Health Services (Disabled Children)15 DECEMBER 2011 Health Services (Disabled Children) 1034

Consequently, child health requires specific attention of information about disabled children? Finally, how within the reform process, which the current legislation will families seek redress if the package of care for their does not appear to provide. disabled child is not delivered or integrated with other care, or if the quality of the health care they receive is The Every Disabled Child Matters campaign is very poor? There are so many questions. We should try to concerned that, unless specific attention is given to the provide answers and to improve the legislation that is health processes and professionals who work within going through Parliament, or at least the guidance that child health, the modernisation of the NHS will perpetuate will go alongside it. a system that fails children, particularly disabled children and those with complex and/or palliative care needs. In the rest of my time, I would like to touch on two The campaign believes that there is a clear choice: act areas. Of course, one could talk about every possible now and use the opportunity of reform to create a condition and make lots of points, but I will touch on system that works for disabled children, or proceed with two areas that have been on my agenda over the past reform concentrating solely on adult services and leave five years or so. The House has debated the provision of families with disabled children still struggling to fill the mental health services for children, with particular reference gaps. to autism. There has been improved provision of child and adolescent mental health services over recent years, The EDCM campaign asks for national leadership. It but I believe that the gap between needs and provision would like the Secretary of State to be required to set remains. I would be grateful for the Minister’s comments priorities for child health as part of his mandate to the on the future provision of these vital services. So often, NHS Commissioning Board. As a matter of urgency, it as we know, mental health services have been a Cinderella would like the Department of Health to set out a clear service. If we can intervene early with children, we can vision for the way in which the reformed system will save a great deal of money, pain and anguish later on. meet the needs of disabled children and children with complex health needs. On commissioning, it would like Specifically on autism, what steps will the Government an overarching clinical network for disabled children’s take to ensure that child and adolescent mental health health to be created in order to address long-standing services staff are trained in autism and that specialist issues, including barriers to commissioning specialist support is available? On a previous occasion, the House health care services. It would like health and wellbeing has discussed the problem that even when parents have board early implementers to be asked to test and report accessed CAMHS, they have not had satisfactory outcomes on integrated working for the delivery of services for because of the lack of training. disabled children which includes all relevant partners. It I would also like to touch on speech, language and would also like careful consideration to be given to the communication needs. To return to my starting point, impact of current reforms on the commissioning of the lack of joint working between education and health specialist health services for children and young people has, over the years, been apparent in speech and language with high-cost, low-incidence conditions. The campaign therapy and in the battles over who pays. Will the would like information and support to be provided to Minister comment on the importance of integrated disabled children and young people and their families to commissioning for speech, language and communication ensure that they understand the way in which the changing services, not just within the health sector, but between health system will affect them. health and education commissioners? What role will health and wellbeing boards play in ensuring that there The report poses 10 key questions, which I would like is effective and co-ordinated commissioning of children’s to pose to the Minister. What role will the NHS services? Will the Minister confirm whether health and commissioning board play in improving the national wellbeing boards will be encouraged to consider the use delivery of health services for disabled children? Where of pooled budgets and joint commissioning arrangements will the responsibility lie for designing care pathways for speech therapy services for children? and shaping local services for disabled children within the modernised system? How will clinical networks and As an aside, I would like to mention some adult senates support clinical commissioning groups to deliver speech therapy that I have seen. I was privileged to visit high quality universal and specialist health care for Poole hospital following the lobbying by the Royal disabled children? What practical steps are being taken College of Speech and Language Therapists in Parliament. to ensure that the experiences and interests of disabled A display had been set up for me and patients had been people and families with disabled children are represented invited in to cover all the aspects of speech therapy for as an integral part of patient involvement at every level adults in the health sector. I would like to tell the of the reformed NHS? How will the success of the Minister and place on the record how impressive that modernised NHS in meeting the needs of disabled was. children be monitored in local areas and how should Returning to the subject of children’s services, there is that information be published? How will health and so much that could be said, but I have one overriding wellbeing boards work with local HealthWatch and question for the Minister. Will she and the Secretary of clinical commissioning groups to achieve integrated State do everything they can to improve the provision of care for families with disabled children who use health, services for children with disabilities and special needs, social care and education services? How should awareness and to ensure that the new structures deliver what is of the particular needs of disabled children be built into needed so greatly? the work force development programme being developed by health education England? How will the modernisation 5.39 pm of the NHS work with pathfinders of the “Support and aspiration” Green Paper, particularly in the development The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health of a single education, health and care plan and a local (Anne Milton): I begin by congratulating the hon. Member offer? What plans are being made to improve the collection for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke) on 1035 Health Services (Disabled Children)15 DECEMBER 2011 Health Services (Disabled Children) 1036

[Anne Milton] about their care. We also a want a service in which commissioning is underpinned by informed and expert securing a debate on this extremely important issue. I knowledge. I believe that it is in commissioning services know that, like many Members, she has shown a very that we have often got things wrong. strong personal interest in it. I share that interest, and I thank her for acknowledging that. I hope that what I As the hon. Lady will know, those ambitions are say today will reassure her that we are doing what we supported by measures such as the increase in health can to improve the availability and quality of health visitors by 4,200 and the expansion by 50% of the care for all children and young people, including those family nurse partnership programme. Health visitors with disabilities. and family nurses play a vital role in identifying, intervening in and sorting out babies’ and children’s problems early. I cannot answer all the questions that the hon. Lady We frequently hear about the need for early diagnosis so asked. Interestingly, from listening to her questions we that we can have early intervention and support, which could hear the complexity of the current system. I share prevents problems later on. That includes children with her sadness about the years that have been lost to many disability and other special care needs. children, and I am sure we also share sadness about the terrible struggle and battle that a lot of parents of I would also like children’s health to be built in disabled children have faced. The debate provides an throughout the new system, so that everything we do is opportunity for us to put on record our tribute to those geared towards supporting children. We have made our parents, who struggle in unbelievable circumstances intention clear to put in place a system that achieves and feel unsupported. I cannot quantify the traumatic better outcomes for everyone, and one that delivers nature of what they have to face, not only in dealing services for individuals, not organisations. We often end with a child with disabilities but in getting everything up believing that we need to get the processes right and they can for them. the arguments on that continue without our seeing the I do not think I will be saying anything very controversial outcome that we are trying to achieve. by acknowledging that the NHS, as it currently works, Of course, not just the NHS has a role to play in the does not get everything right for children and young health of children with disabilities. Schools, children’s people. The hon. Lady referred to Sir Ian Kennedy’s centres and wider children’s services all have a part to report “Getting it right for children and young people”, play. That is why we are putting in place a system of which made it clear that the quality of health care for health and wellbeing boards in each local area, the job children was very variable and that the outcomes for of which will be to achieve a truly jointly owned assessment too many children were poor compared with those in of local need, which leads to a joint health and well-being other countries. strategy and commissioning decisions that span the We have 12 million children and young people in NHS and local government. Joint leadership and joint England, which is a fifth of the total population, and responsibility is for the whole population, including the number of them with disabilities is high. For example, disabled children. Local authorities have a key role to some 108,000 have been diagnosed as having an autistic play. spectrum disorder, and some 70,000 would benefit from I should take this opportunity to commend the work mobility support, including wheelchairs. Their well-being, of Disability Challengers in my area, which is well as with all children and young people, must always be at supported by people locally and offers an invaluable the top of our list. We must pay particular attention to service to parents. It is those sort of initiatives and third services that help the most vulnerable children or those sector organisations that we can bring together to make with the greatest needs. They are our future, and the joint leadership and joint responsibility actually work. NHS needs to do better for them. We always talk about integration—we have been talking I am particularly pleased that the hon. Lady mentioned about it for years—but now we need to make it happen. children who are on the autistic spectrum. There is no We need to stop that fragmentation of services. We need doubt that those children and young people in particular, to stop arguing about who will pay for what and ensure like adults with autism, often fall through the net. Child that people get what they need. and adolescent mental health services do not necessarily fill the gap. The hon. Lady and others have concerns about the priorities that general practitioners will give to children The Department of Health has simple but ambitious and young people when commissioning services, but in goals. It may be stating the obvious to say that they fact it is estimated that about 40% of the average GP’s include the right start to life in the foundation years, work load is to do with children and young people. improved support for mental health and well-being, Nobody is in a better position to understand children’s more co-operative and joined-up services for children needs. On top of that, the clinical commissioning groups with disabilities, and improved health in adolescence. will have access to advice from people with a broad Those ambitions lie behind the health reforms that the range of professional expertise, including those who coalition Government are proposing. We are moving work particularly closely with children, such as towards a service in which the use of evidence-based paediatricians, nurses, other clinical professionals, and treatment is adopted consistently and to the best effect; health and wellbeing boards, the membership of which in which promoting good health is of equal importance will include, for example, directors of children’s services to caring for the sick; and in which children, young in the local authority. people and their families are always involved in decisions about their care. “No decision about me without me” The hon. Lady mentioned speech and language therapy, applies as much to children as to anybody else, and I which is much talked about. Its critical role in meeting think we often underestimate the ability of young people many children’s needs is much underestimated. The and even quite young children to be involved in decisions allied health professionals, which we often miss off our 1037 Health Services (Disabled Children)15 DECEMBER 2011 Health Services (Disabled Children) 1038 list after we have mentioned nurses and doctors, are 20 pathfinder groups, including 31 local authorities and critical in ensuring that those children get what they primary care trust clusters, to test the ambition of the need. Government’s Green Paper to support children with To ensure that that happens, the NHS commissioning special educational needs. They will test improvements board will be accountable to Ministers for improving to the current system, including the new single assessment health care provision for children and young people. process with a single education, health and care plan, They will be judged on their delivery of improved along with the option of a personal budget. Things outcomes. The NHS outcomes framework and the public happen incredibly slowly in Government and it is very health outcomes framework include measurable outcomes frustrating for the people who are in receipt of services. to demonstrate improvement in critical areas relating to It is important that we use this opportunity to capture children and young people. As the data get better and the enthusiasm and energy and to use the reforms that more meaningful—it is important to say that the data we are making to get this right once and for all. The must be meaningful—we will refine the outcomes that lessons that we learn from those early implementers the NHS needs to deliver, along with our understanding will be crucial. They will help inform more effective of the outcomes that are important to disabled children, commissioning and service provision. Where these effective young people and their families. That will be an evolving integrated care packages and personal budgets are available, work in progress, but the focus on outcomes is important. the impacts are very dramatic. One important matter—the hon. Lady will be interested I hope that the hon. Lady is reassured by the fact that in this—is how the integrated care pathway can be used we are committed to children with disabilities. I have a to provide children with disabilities, long-term conditions personal interest in the matter, and we want to ensure or complex needs the best opportunities to make progress that the NHS plays its full part. It sounds a cliché to say and live life more independently. A number of activities that the NHS works in partnership with local authorities are under way at the moment to ensure that that happens. and schools to improve the lives of children and young The learning network for health and wellbeing board people, but I mean it from the bottom of my heart. We early implementer programme includes a learning set have to ensure that partnership becomes a reality. on effective joint working to improve those outcomes I pay tribute to organisations such as Every Disabled for children and young people. That work is just getting Child Matters. My noble friend Earl Howe has answered under way—it was launched only about three weeks a letter to that organisation quite recently. We are ago—but there is incredible energy and enthusiasm to talking about special children with very special needs develop and share innovative ways in which to change and some very special parents. We must ensure that things for the better. One of the priorities for the those needs are met and that the terrible battle that the network is tackling health inequalities and increasing parents and young people face is halted and they get access for those groups that traditionally have had what they need to live those independent lives. There difficulty in securing the provision that they need. I can be no better words to end this debate on than these: refer here to the group of children that we are talking young, disabled and in control. about. Question put and agreed to. Similarly, there is a small group of early implementing clinical commissioning groups that are focusing on children and young people’s issues. With my colleagues 5.52 pm in the Department for Education, we have set up House adjourned.

343WH 15 DECEMBER 2011 Remploy 344WH

The closure of 54 factories could mean that 2,500 disabled Westminster Hall people will lose their jobs. Those people are frightened and worried about their future employment prospects, Thursday 15 December 2011 given the current level of unemployment. Remploy factories and workplaces provide stable and dignified [MR DAI HAVARD in the Chair] places of employment. The system has provided a BACKBENCH BUSINESS remarkably robust presence over the past 65 years, and I am convinced that it has a viable future based on a Remploy decentralised procurement system. Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting The vast majority of factories are in areas of previous be now adjourned.—(Mr Vara.) heavy industry, such as my constituency, which is in a 2.30 pm former coal mining area. On my first visit to Remploy, when I was first elected in 1984, I visited the Remploy Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair): Before we start the factory in Aberdare and watched with amazement the debate, there is clearly a great deal of interest, so I skill and the love with which people worked. Those remind Members about discipline. Interventions are people were hand-stitching huge boots for disabled welcome and important to facilitate debate, but please people, although that particular business has long since make them interventions, not small speeches. My colleague, been lost. Cynon Valley, despite its proud industrial Mr Benton, will take over from me later. He and I have past—I am sure that we will hear the same thing from decided that we should allow the last three quarters of many colleagues here—is marked by unemployment an hour for the Opposition spokesperson and the Minister rates almost double the UK average. to reply, and for the sponsor of this debate, Mrs Clwyd, to intervene at the end should she wish to summarise the debate, as this is a Backbench Business Committee- Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): I thank my right hon. sponsored discussion. Friend for giving way and for initiating this debate, which of importance to many of us, as she can see. In 2.31 pm addition to the obvious problem of unemployment, Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): I am pleased to be which she is discussing, does she agree that even where here under your chairmanship, Mr Havard. You are my jobs exist, it is difficult for people with disabilities to get constituency neighbour and a friend, and you have to them, because public transport is often not accessible similar problems in Merthyr Tydfil to ours in Cynon to them? Does she therefore agree that Ministers must Valley.I am grateful to the Backbench Business Committee address many things before they can even begin to think for giving us three hours before Christmas, which is about asking people to find alternative employment? important in case the Government come out with a statement early in the new year. In a petition handed in to No. 10 last month, more Ann Clwyd: I thank my hon. Friend for making that than 100,000 people told the Government that they important point, which I will discuss later. In Cynon want them to stop the closure of Remploy factories and Valley, 2,275 people are looking for work at the moment, the privatisation of Remploy employment services. As a rate of 8.3% unemployment. All areas in Cynon most people know, Remploy has a long and proud Valley have the same problem of high unemployment, history as the largest and oldest employer of disabled in addition to the multitude of factors, as my hon. people in the United Kingdom. It was set up in 1946 by Friend has said, that are stacked against a disabled the Attlee Labour Government to provide returning person looking for a job in the area where they live or brave servicemen with dignified work. Indeed, the name even in a neighbouring area. Disabled people should, of Remploy means “re-employ”. course, be supported in whatever work they choose, but The first factory was opened in Bridgend, south there is no real choice if unemployment is high and if Wales, and Remploy quickly developed into the biggest there is little or no employment elsewhere. The Secretary and most important employer of disabled people in the of State for Work and Pensions told the jobless of south UK. Over the following decades, it established a network Wales to get on the bus to Cardiff to find work—we of factories across the UK making a wide variety of all remember his comments. As you know very well, products, such as school furniture, motor components Mr Havard, he made those comments in Merthyr Tydfil, and chemical, biological and nuclear protection suits a town with five jobseekers for every advertised job. for the police and military, as well as a variety of health That is no help to a jobseeker in my constituency, where products. Remploy currently employs more than 2,500 there are 21 jobseekers for every advertised job. disabled people in its 54 factories. The Sayce report recommends that funding for Remploy Many Remploy employees now face the loss of their should instead be channelled into expanding the Access jobs if the Government fully accept the recommendations to Work programme. Again, I note that the Secretary of of the Sayce report, the Government-commissioned State suggested that people in Merthyr Tydfil were review of specialist disability employment programmes. unaware that they could make a one-hour bus journey The report was followed by a three-month consultation, to Cardiff for work. For many of us, that echoes Lord to which many of us contributed and which came to an Tebbit’s comments about getting on your bike. The end in October. The Government—I am looking at the Secretary of State’s comment was of exactly the same Minister—have already stated that they are order, and many people felt that it was a disgusting “minded to accept the recommendations of the Sayce review on insult to the unemployed in the area. People are well Remploy”, aware that they can get a bus, but there is no point which recommends that Remploy leave Government getting a bus to Cardiff when there are many people out support and that factories close. of work in Cardiff who are also looking for a job. 345WH 15 DECEMBER 2011 Remploy 346WH

Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): the self-fulfilling prophecy of being financially inviable. I congratulate my right hon. Friend on securing this The Minister said that she had not heard that that is the debate. Does she accept that it is different for people case, but has my right hon. Friend heard that it is? Since with disabilities who are made redundant? A man in my that exchange in the House, the allegation has continued constituency has a facial disfigurement so bad that he to be made. When we talk about viability, it is important could not use public transport, go into a restaurant or to establish whether that is what has been happening. do the normal things that other people do. Remploy was the only place that he had and the only thing that Ann Clwyd: I thank my right hon. Friend for making kept him sane. He is now locked in his bedroom with that point. I received a letter about half an hour ago the curtains closed, more or less, and has nowhere to go. from my hon. Friend the Member for Copeland (Mr Reed), who would have liked to have been present but could Ann Clwyd: That is a very sad case. I am sure that we not make it. He wants me to mention the Cleator Moor could all discuss similar cases. I know of one man in factory in his constituency and says that it has operated Penrhiwceiber who also never comes out of his house. It very successfully for many years and currently has a is tragic to see the effect on a whole family when large order book. Some factories, therefore, have large somebody cannot leave the house, for whatever reason. order books and are, in fact, turning work away. Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): I thank my Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): I thank right hon. Friend for calling for this very important my right hon. Friend for securing this debate. Is her debate. The Bridgend factory is in a similar position. It experience similar to mine? I visited the Remploy factory has a long-standing relationship with Ford and is currently in my constituency twice and spoke to the people working bidding for a new contract with it, but it is in the there. They had enormous pride in the work that they difficult position of not knowing what its future holds were doing. When I discussed with them how they felt and whether it will in fact be there and be able to fulfil about going into the open market and working in that contract, if it is awarded to it. It then faces the another environment, their answer was categorically, problem of whether it will be allowed, if successful, to “No. We like working in this particular environment. recruit more disabled people to work at the factory. It’s safe, they understand our needs and it’s more That insecurity is affecting the whole of the work force. comfortable for us.” Ann Clwyd: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. Ann Clwyd: I cannot emphasise enough the pride that Uncertainty is having a very bad effect, both on the people who work in Remploy factories have in their morale of the people who work in the factory and on work. They do not want to sit there doing nothing—they that of their relatives. Everybody will want to make want to work—but one of the problems with procurement, points about their particular areas and factories. Before or the lack of it, is that too many of them are sitting, I take another intervention, I want to mention the last waiting for work that has not come. Members may have round of redundancies in the Aberdare Remploy factory seen the recent lists of those local authorities that are in 2008. Of the 18 disabled employees who took voluntary procuring work through Remploy factories and those redundancy, only one person ever returned to work, that are not. Some local authorities in this country are although many others would have liked to have had a not getting any work done by the Remploy factories in job and were able to have one had one been available. their area, which is a tragedy. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab) rose— In a period in which unemployment is rising, it is pie in the sky and cruelly misleading to suggest that expanding Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op) rose— the Access to Work programme will result in more work for disabled people. In my area, people would like any Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair): I call Mr Bryant. It opportunity to work, but it is particularly difficult for would help me if only one Member stood up at a time. disabled people and always has been. I remember when the disablement resettlement officers tried to get work Chris Bryant: I could not see behind me, Mr Havard. for disabled people and how difficult it was for them in a very different environment from the one we are in Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair): You need wing mirrors. now. Remploy is at a crossroads. All 54 Remploy factories Chris Bryant: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend are under threat of closure when the current public the Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd), who is my funding ends in April 2013. The threat is compounded constituency neighbour, because uncertainty is even by the factories being deliberately run at 50% of their affecting those Remploy offices, such as that in Porth in capacity. It is crucial that, instead of deliberately running Rhondda, that have a very strong record and a very down the factories in order to, in my opinion, justify strong order book. It seems a dereliction of duty if the closure, an alternative Government strategy is devised very strong parts of the business end up being undermined to maintain funding and enable individual factories to just because clarity is not provided. secure work. Ann Clwyd: I could not agree more. I have two quotes, the first of which is from the general secretary Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): of Unite: In the House a couple of months ago, I asked the “This report spells the death knell of Remploy factories—it is Minister a similar question about the factories. An a blueprint to run-down and close the factories. The government allegation has been made that, although the performance needs to commit itself to making substantial pump-priming of the factories varies from place to place, some are available to guarantee that the plants become successful as businesses actually turning work away, perhaps in order to create in their own right—they won’t succeed without such cash. 347WH Remploy15 DECEMBER 2011 Remploy 348WH

The prospect for those who will have to battle it out for my concern that, if people are cast adrift—that is how mainstream jobs is grim—it is a major blow for them. What will families in my constituency feel about potentially not happen is that disabled people will be at the back of the employment being able to go to Remploy—there will be the considerable queue and when they do succeed in finding work, too often, they additional costs, both to local authorities and the are bullied and forced out of work. It is a vicious revolving door.” Government, of those people not being available and in Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): In Aberdeen, work? Is she aware of any cost-benefit analysis that is we have a factory that struggled for a number of years, being done by the Government to look at that impact? but in the past two years or 18 months it has turned Ann Clwyd: Again, many years ago when I was a itself around and is now going great guns, with new Member of the European Parliament, I wrote a report orders and new businesses. In fact, it has managed to for that Parliament on the social consequences of rent out some of the factory to other businesses and unemployment. I have been trying to dig out that particular social enterprises, so things are really looking up. Does report from the terrible filing system of my office, my right hon. Friend agree that it is a supreme irony because, as I remember, the conclusions are absolutely that, at the very point at which the Aberdeen factory as apt today as they were then. Nothing has changed in looks, for the first time in many years, to have a successful about 25 years. The conclusions will be exactly the future, it should be undermined by a decision taken by same. the Government? Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): The Penzance Remploy Ann Clwyd: Again, I absolutely agree and thank my factory in my constituency was one of those that managed hon. Friend for making that point. to survive the closure programme under the previous Government. It has, indeed, been very offended by Mark Hendrick: The factory in Preston recycles computer some of the remarks in the Sayce report about what equipment—if any business is sustainable in the foreseeable goes on in the factory. On Remploy potentially having future, it is the recycling of computer equipment. The top-heavy management, it is very telling that many of factory is running at only half its actual capacity, which the successful contracts that have been carried out by makes me think, as my right hon. Friend the Member the textile factory at Penzance have, in fact, been won for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) has by the disabled people themselves. That is very telling said, that there is work out there, but the factory is just and shows that those disabled people have demonstrated not receiving it. That fact of the matter is that, when I a great deal of dynamism and ability at the factory have spoken to the workers, they have said that they feel level. that they are being condemned to a life of unemployment. The chances of getting work are negligible, and this Ann Clwyd: That is a very important point, because signals the death knell for what has been recognised as a the quality of the work produced is also excellent. A very important company since the war. focus on procurement is therefore key to the future development of the Remploy factories. Ann Clwyd: Again, I agree. The unions argue that Remploy’s capacity has been driven down through bad management, making it possible Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): I congratulate for the Government to claim that Remploy is not working. my right hon. Friend on securing this important debate. If orders are gained through effective procurement policies, Following on from what has already been said, I have which they are in some areas, the unions argue that visited the Remploy factory in my constituency so many factories can work at full capacity and that they can be times that I am almost on first-name terms with most of viable. Surely, the future of Remploy can be secured by the work force, which has, unfortunately, shrunk from enabling each individual factory to procure work and to about 100 to perhaps 50. The management, the trade work with other Remploy factories, if needs be. unions and the work force have made it clear that, if the factory closes, it is highly unlikely that the majority of Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): On that the work force will find alternative employment. Is that point, when I visited the Swansea factory in the spring, also the situation in my right hon. Friend’s constituency? it was running under capacity. I therefore visited the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Authority, the local authority, Ann Clwyd: I suspect that the situation is exactly the the university and the health authority. That factory is same in all our constituencies. now running at full capacity with much higher margins. The GMB union, which also represents Remploy Does that not illustrate that there is a strategic problem employees, argues that the voluntary redundancy scheme and that there is an over-centralisation of UK management is not the answer instead of sales teams being devolved to enable local factories to pick up orders from large clients based “to the real problems facing factory based supported employment locally? in Remploy.” It argues that the structure of Remploy is Ann Clwyd: I thank my hon. Friend for that remark. “top heavy with senior managers and millions of pounds can be He wrote a very good article in the Western Mail last saved” week on Remploy. I commend that article to my hon. by reducing the numbers of managers and associated Friends. costs, such as their bonuses. Remploy in Aberdare has failed to provide sufficient support to the factory since its so-called reprieve in Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): My 2008. Despite assurances, Remploy management have right hon. Friend is touching on the balance of posts never made a concerted effort to make the Aberdare within Remploy and whether the organisation is top factory viable. There is a team of national sales staff—this heavy, and I share those concerns. Does she also share picks up the point made by my hon. Friend the Member 349WH Remploy15 DECEMBER 2011 Remploy 350WH

[Ann Clwyd] colleagues about the time available for the discussion, even if we try to squeeze in the reply period. A bit of for Swansea West (Geraint Davies)—but they are all internal discipline from colleagues would be extremely based in England and have generated little or no new helpful. Thank you. I call Mr Stephen Lloyd. work for the Aberdare factory. It is that model of procurement that urgently needs to change. Across Remploy as a whole, major savings could be 2.58 pm made by dealing with the over-staffing of management Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): I thank the right and senior management, the majority of whom are hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) for securing able-bodied. Savings could also be made by cutting the the debate. It is interesting to note that when I saw the use of expensive outside consultants. The Sayce report subject, I had a couple of conflicting thoughts. One suggested that Remploy factories could be taken over thought was, “Stephen, if you speak in this, you can by worker co-operatives or mutuals. I hope that that is pretty much guarantee that it will be you against the not just a cynical attempt by the Government to wash massed ranks. Do you really want to do that considering their hands of the Remploy factories. If there were an that you have been an MP for a mere year and a half?” attempt to push a new model on Remploy without prior The other thought was, “Youshould contribute because consultation or consent, it would obviously reflect very you really believe that what you have to say is right.” I badly on the Government and be viewed as heavy-handed am glad to say that, in my judgment, I chose the latter. and top-down. Despite being among society’s most vulnerable people, disabled people should be treated It is a privilege to speak in this very important debate. like anybody else with dignity and respect. I have been involved with the issue, on and off, for nigh Before the summer holidays, when I went to see the on 19 years. I would like to tell the Chamber a little bit Secretary of State—the Minister was there as well—about about Liz Sayce, who wrote the report. In the field of my own factory, I questioned the quality of the information disability, Liz Sayce is held in tremendous respect and being provided by Remploy senior management, including regard by both disabled and non-disabled disability to the Government. That was confirmed by a comment consultants. I hope that even if the right hon. Member made during our meeting. It was said that my factory in for Cynon Valley disagrees fundamentally with the review, Aberdare was part of the furniture business. I said, she agrees that Liz Sayce knows of what she speaks with “Well, that’s news to me.” When I went to the factory a regard to disability. I have had the privilege of knowing few days later, the people there confirmed that they do her for many years. not make furniture—they make window boxes. I suppose I am fully aware that this is a debate against the that window boxes are furniture to some people, but closure of Remploy factories, but I want to take the they are not normally considered to be furniture. opportunity to make the case for something I feel The Aberdare factory still manufactures some items profoundly exercised about: supporting disabled people for the health care business. That was one of the main to realise their employment potential. An outsider might things it did that was taken away from it some years ago think that the Sayce review is solely about closing as a result of some fatuous reasoning. The manufacture Remploy factories. In my judgment, it is not about that. of those items was transferred to Chesterfield. I have no It is about the future of disability employment support objection to people in Chesterfield having a job, but not and making sure that the money is used where it makes at the expense of my own factory. As I have said, we still a real difference to as many disabled people as possible. manufacture some items for the health care business, It is also about disabled people’s employment aspirations including a subcontracted footwear contract from the as well as, crucially, society’s attitude towards disabled Chesterfield factory. That seems to be a rather ridiculous people. situation that is like a sort of yo-yo approach. There is There is a story to be celebrated, which is that disabled also a bra pocketing service and the manufacture of people’s employment levels have risen significantly in lumber supports. So the factory was not making furniture, recent years, especially among disabled graduates. I and I question some of the things that are said to remember, years ago, campaigning for the Disability happen in certain places. Discrimination Act 1995 when John Major was Prime Finally, according to the economists, we know that Minister. Compared with where we were 15 years ago, unemployment is on course to hit 3 million for the first where we are today might as well be a completely time in 20 years. It is clear that wide-ranging job cuts in different planet. Disabled people have higher aspirations, the public sector are simply not being absorbed by the are increasingly breaking through the job market, and private sector. Those jobs are just not there in the are rightly becoming ever more visible in public life. The private sector. It is the hallmark of a civilised society increase in support for disabled people, and new that it ensures that its most vulnerable people are protected. employment rights and changed attitudes towards disabled Those people should not be left to compete in a savage people have certainly helped. labour market, where hundreds of thousands more people will lose their jobs in the coming months. It will Since 1994, Access to Work has helped tens of thousands be hard enough for the able-bodied, but please let us of disabled people to get a job or stay in a job, despite safeguard Remploy and all who work within it. its being called Whitehall’s best secret. At this juncture, I pay tribute—so that it will be in Hansard—to the Several hon. Members rose— enormous investment that the Labour Government put into Access to Work. Many years ago, I remember Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair): Order. Before we begin meeting the then Minister with responsibility for disability, the rest of the debate, a number of hon. Members the right hon. Member for Barking (Margaret Hodge); clearly wish to speak—about a dozen Members have another former Minister is in the Chamber today—the indicated to me that they wish to contribute. I remind right hon. Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire), who I 351WH Remploy15 DECEMBER 2011 Remploy 352WH knew in my previous life. They put tremendous investment I agreed wholeheartedly on the proviso that rather than into Access to Work, for which I have always been very spending all that money providing, say, escalators for grateful. non-disabled people to use at underground stations, The Disability Discrimination Act 1995 secured rights why do we not just chuck a rope over the edge so that for disabled people to be free of discrimination. Those they can climb up? I think I lost that chap’s vote, but rights have been strengthened, most recently through there you go. the Equality Act 2010. Furthermore, the UN disability How best can we support disabled people into sustainable rights convention, signed and ratified by the UK employment? That is the $64,000 question. The Sayce Government, explicitly recognises the right of disabled review makes a recommendation on how the coalition people to work in open employment. Earlier this month, Government can use the £330 million budget for specialist an organisation I know very well, the Employers’ Forum disability employment support to help more disabled on Disability, celebrated 20 years of achievement and people into employment, and to help more effectively very hard work on behalf of disabled people. It supports disabled people already in employment. This is the key: its members, companies and organisations large and employment and retained employment. Currently, that small to become disability confident, thus making it budget is spent on Remploy, Access to Work and residential easier to recruit and retain disabled employees, and to training colleges. To my mind, after years of studying serve disabled customers properly. Its members, and these things, there are three key issues at stake: how our many other employers, are committed to breaking down resources can be best used to help as many people as barriers, because they recognise that it benefits them to possible in the most effective way; whether disabled tap into that huge pool of talent. They know that people should be supported in open employment or employees—disabled and non-disabled—function better whether there is a place for sheltered employment; and in an environment where everybody is treated with how the future of current Remploy workers can best be respect, and where they get the support they need. protected. The EFD, and other organisations, know it is not the disability, but the person that matters—otherwise known On the first point, I offer some facts. We are spending as the social model of disability. My very good colleague, five times as much on a Remploy worker than on a the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne disabled person in open employment, yet with the right Begg), the Chair of the Work and Pensions Committee, support, disabled people can have real careers—I know has, like me, been campaigning for the social model for many disabled people who do—alongside their non-disabled a long time. When I first started doing so with other peers in the open workplace. They are similarly skilled, disabled people, we were seen as if we were talking similarly unskilled, similarly bright, and similarly less double Dutch. There is much greater understanding of so. In fact, they are pretty similar to all of us here, but the social model of disability today. with different needs. Despite that progress, 50% of disabled adults of working age remain unable to access paid work. This is Mrs Moon: The hon. Gentleman makes the point 2011. What a shocking waste of talent and experience. that currently spending on a Remploy worker is five The figure is probably even higher for certain disabilities, times more than on a worker in an ordinary job. Does such as profoundly deaf British sign language users, he not agree that part of the problem has always been and those with mental health issues and other specific the high level of expenditure on consultants, the high disabilities. level of over-management, and the high cost to each individual Remploy factory for central services? It is the Dame Anne Begg: I call the hon. Gentleman my hon. management structure of Remploy, not the workers, Friend because we have served on the Select Committee that makes Remploy more expensive. Let us remember together. During the recent visit of the Committee to that and stop criticising the workers and start criticising the Port Talbot-Neath Remploy, we met a group of the management structure and framework. pupils and a teacher from a local special school who were getting work experience in that factory—the only place where those youngsters could possibly get any Stephen Lloyd: What is so hilarious is that I have been kind of work experience. In the Aberdeen factory, the doing that for a long time. That point was being made Remploy employment service is now in the factory, and years ago, when the previous Government were in charge. the factory provides work experience places for people Yes, there is a grain of truth in it—of course there is. with disabilities. Does my hon. Friend agree that there is Remploy is top-heavy and sclerotic, but that is ancient a role for the factories to help to support disabled people history. I remember exactly the same argument when in obtaining experience that they can then use to access Labour was in charge. There is an issue and I will come open employment, or other employment opportunities? to it later. We need to be smarter in the way we use Remploy, but that particular tack is so ancient, that if it Stephen Lloyd: I thank my hon. Friend for that was on the floor it would curl over and die. contribution. I agree entirely. Later on in my speech, I have a cunning plan about how Remploy could be better used, and that was a very good example. Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): Another point There is a real need to step up the level of support that has not been made so far is that disabled people available to disabled people, as well as tackling outdated and disabled workers are not a homogeneous group, and ignorant attitudes among career advisers and employers. and disabilities vary enormously. One can see people I heard a good example only a couple of weeks ago. with mild disabilities in open employment, and they One of my constituents complained to me about the may not require much subsidy, but those with more cost of fitting serious disabilities need protected workshops, such as “all these wheelchair ramps into shops.” those at Remploy. 353WH Remploy15 DECEMBER 2011 Remploy 354WH

Stephen Lloyd: I thank the hon. Gentleman for making move swiftly to adapt to circumstances. The Government that incredibly important point. The variability of the need to be more creative about how Remploy factories support that disabled people need is absolutely vast—it and branches within the corporate body act. I do not is like a length of string. Let me give an example. I deny what the hon. Gentleman says—indeed, I am sure missed a vote a few months after I was elected, because it is true—but I guarantee that it could have been said I did not hear the Division bell, which is not surprising, 10 years ago. I absolutely promise that, because I know because I am half deaf. What was the solution? I made the subject. an adjustment in my office in Norman Shaw North, and I now have a flashing light there; it is not complicated, Mark Hendrick: The hon. Gentleman gives the but there are some advantages. Of course, a lot of us in impression that he feels that what has been said about this Chamber sometimes appreciate it if we do not hear the Remploy management is a specific criticism of this the Division bell, but that is by the bye. Government, but the management was equally inefficient However, that is a good example of what we are and incompetent under the Labour Government. The talking about. My disability is pretty minor—I have issue is that some people are so profoundly disabled that been hard of hearing ever since I got measles when I they will never find mainstream employment, while was six or seven years old—and one can accommodate there is a possibility that the majority he is talking it quite easily. However, someone with, say, profound about will get employment through Access to Work, mobility problems will need more support than someone even though that is extremely unlikely given the current like me, and someone with severe mental health issues level of unemployment. will need even more support. I therefore entirely agree that this is not black and white, and it is not easy to Stephen Lloyd: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his pigeonhole people. If Access to Work is done properly, intervention, but I disagree. We are in a different place however, and there are other supporting mechanisms, it from where we were a few years ago. Things will be can be very effective, even for people with a profound challenging, and I wish the heck we were not in the disability, as I will explain a bit later. economic mess we are in. However, I know from experience Remploy employs 2,800 people, whereas Access to that people with certain disabilities would never have Work currently supports 37,000 and could support been employed 10 years ago, yet some of them are being 70,000 if the budget were used better. Furthermore—this employed now. None the less, I appreciate that things is unpopular but important—there are few new entrants are challenging. to Remploy factories, as more and more disabled people The reality is that, whether we like it or not, the are supported in moving to open employment. Given global economy has restricted the market for Remploy what the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley said, I factories, as the National Audit Office identified as am absolutely certain that some of the factories in the early as 2005. As I said, Remploy’s overall corporate group are, despicably, not taking on some of the disabled business model makes it impossible to generate a workable people they should be; I cannot prove that, but I am profit even from the parts of the business that are sure she is right. However, one of the main reasons they viable. I therefore accept that Remploy’s model is sclerotic, are not taking on as many disabled people as they used and it needs to be changed if Remploy is to have any to is that more and more of those who want to work are success in the future. I will move on, because a lot of getting support to help them move into open employment. people want to speak. We must be flexible. The economic climate dictates Geraint Davies: Swansea Remploy, which I mentioned, that, but it is also the right way for disabled people. We is very productive and effective, but the voluntary all know that we are living in incredibly difficult times, redundancy scheme there and elsewhere was in danger which is why it is even more important that disabled of taking key people out of the production chain. people receive individualised support to get jobs and Currently, Remploy’s management has imposed a virtual stay in work. Access to Work is a shining example. employment freeze; the factory is, for instance, looking Today, every Access to Work recipient brings in, on for a design technician, which is holding back orders. In average, £1.48 for every £1 spent—a real success story. other words, the Government and Remploy’s management are preventing Remploy from succeeding, contrary to We can take the steps necessary to prevent upwards what the hon. Gentleman suggests. of 300,000 people from losing their jobs each year for reasons of disability. Many could keep their employment Stephen Lloyd: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that if they got the right support and if Access to Work were intervention, but I am not sure it is true. That is the promoted to them better via employers and health same situation as we had years ago—it really is. These professionals. things have not come out of the woodwork under this Making Access to Work available to people taking up Government. internships, apprenticeships and work experience could help to address the scandalously low employment rates Geraint Davies: I got that information first hand on a among young disabled people, who are twice as likely as visit to Remploy in Swansea last week. It has a showroom non-disabled young people to be not in education, and it is getting new people in ordering things, but it employment or training. At present, they cannot even faces production constraints because it cannot recruit get their first chance of work, because Access to Work the right people. It wants to recruit more people and to does not cover internships, work experience and be more successful, but it is being held back. apprenticeships. I am convinced they must be given that Stephen Lloyd: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his opportunity. further intervention. As I will explain later, the Remploy The reality is that there are many things we can still model needs changing. Remploy’s corporate size is a do, even in hard times, to increase equality. I would go disadvantage and makes it very sclerotic, so it cannot so far as to say that it is even more important in difficult 355WH Remploy15 DECEMBER 2011 Remploy 356WH times to push, promote and advocate the case for disability Stephen Lloyd: My understanding is that if the money equality. Let me take this opportunity to ask the Minister follows the person—if, hypothetically, 15 people work directly—no, we did not agree this beforehand, believe in a workshop and the money follows them—that will you me—whether the Government will commit to a be inclusive within the budget. I would be willing to clear action plan to improve and promote Access to check that. The key, for me, is that it is time finally to Work in line with the recommendations of the Sayce address the low expectations that some disabled people review. have, as well as to challenge stigma that comes from The second issue is whether disabled people should outside. That is why it is so important that disabled be supported in open employment—this is important—or people should become more visible in open employment. whether there is a place for sheltered employment. We are in a completely different place from where we Having disabled people living, studying and working were 15 years ago, and I want to go five times further alongside non-disabled people is vital to achieving a again. more cohesive society. Therefore, it concerns me that Sayce identifies confident, well-informed disabled people this might be a debate over whether we should have as one of the key enablers to a successful disability sheltered or open employment, when it is more than employment support programme. Disabled people must that: it is about equality of access, as well as equality of therefore have access to the right support mechanisms opportunity; it is about giving more disabled people the and adjustments, as well as peer advice and mentoring. tools and the power to run their own lives. For sure, Often, where one disabled person has paved the way, there was a place for sheltered employment after world others will follow. We have seen that many times. At war two, when disabled people were routinely segregated, Radar’s MP disability dialogue parliamentary reception and sheltered employment was one of the few means for a few months ago, a deaf man came up to me after I had disabled people to earn an income, but that was almost spoken and said that seeing a hard-of-hearing MP 70 years ago. inspired him. It gave him the confidence and belief that, It is worth bearing in mind the goal of Remploy’s one day, he could also become an MP, if he chose. His founder, the extraordinary George Tomlinson MP. choice, his belief and his life: that is what it is all about. I profoundly believe that we all deserve those things. Kelvin Hopkins: The hon. Gentleman is talking about It is our right, whatever challenges we face, to aspire to when Remploy was first established in the 1940s. During be whatever we want to be, as long as society provides the war, everybody was employed, and there was also the right support to level the playing field—not to be full employment for a period after the war. If Remploy given an unfair advantage, but just to be given the was necessary then, it is surely even more necessary chance. I am convinced that there is an enormous well when we have high unemployment, as we have now. of disabled talent, which we must unlock. One of my reasons for coming into politics was to help to unlock Stephen Lloyd: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that that talent and to play a role, however small, in the intervention. George Tomlinson’s goal was to help disabled mother of Parliaments, in making that difference. people to secure open employment and to lead full lives, Perhaps I can give hon. Members an idea of the size and the Remploy factories existed as a short-term solution of the pool of talent: despite the good work that the for rehabilitation and learning new skills. Tomlinson previous Government did, shockingly, in 2011, more never intended them to be places where disabled people than 3 million disabled people are out of work— stayed for long. As Andrew Lee, chief executive of 3 million, for pity’s sake. That is an absolute scandal. If People First, who happens to have a learning disability, the whole budget for disability employment programmes has said: were spent on evidence-based programmes such as Access “People with learning difficulties want the chance to have the to Work, many more disabled individuals would get the same job opportunities as everyone else. Organisations such as support that they need. We cannot just keep accepting Remploy that segregate disabled people will not provide the the status quo. opportunities to work that disabled people want for the 21st Century.” If the budget were used better, we could double the Surely, therefore, in this modern world, there is something number of people getting Access to Work to 70,000. wrong—we are back to Remploy—when workers are Crucially, that would also send a clear message that the mostly disabled, but managers are mostly non-disabled. nation was no longer prepared to allow such waste and Many disabled people successfully run their own businesses, was determined to do what it takes to change a deplorable employing disabled and non-disabled people, so can it status quo. In the process, I am certain that a doubling be right that we support in 2011—solidify, even—such in numbers could be the catalyst to a transformation in an old-fashioned, paternalist attitude towards people the area of disability. Bluntly, although I am sure that with disabilities? the Minister will not thank me for increasing her budget exponentially, I will not be satisfied until 1 million additional disabled people get into jobs through Access Andrew George: I respect the bravery of the case that to Work. I leave the Minister to work out the sums. In my hon. Friend is making, although I have not necessarily the process, the Exchequer’s tax receipts would go through come to the same conclusions. Recommendation 5 of the roof. the Sayce report emphasises choice for disabled people. One choice should surely be the stepping-stone of sheltered Thirdly, and equally importantly, how can the future workshops. The problem with the recommendation is of current Remploy workers best be protected? Again I that, if the funding follows the disabled person, the will give some facts. There may be reasons for them, money will not be in place to provide either the certainty whether or not they are appropriate, but they are facts. or the capital investment to ensure that sheltered workshops About half of Remploy workers at any given time have will continue to exist, to provide that choice. no work. They are being paid for doing nothing. Is not 357WH Remploy15 DECEMBER 2011 Remploy 358WH

[Stephen Lloyd] I want to make the general point that it would be completely wrong and inaccurate to portray people who it much more fulfilling for someone to be paid for what want to defend Remploy and keep Remploy factories they do, rather than because they are a disabled person open as opposing change and modernisation. I speak in a Remploy factory? for myself, but I am confident that no one taking part in I do not know whether anyone here has ever been in the debate, from whatever side, wants an old-fashioned receipt of paternalistic charity, but I would lay odds model of factory life for any disabled person. There is that it is not a good feeling. I remember years ago a no conflict between wanting to keep Remploy factories close friend of mine, who is a wheelchair user, explained open and wanting Remploy employment services to do to me that if he was insulted by, say, an idiotic and well. For those who can get into mainstream employment, ignorant member of the public, he would feel anger. It that is great. I want the organisation to work well, but it was not something he enjoyed, but at least, as he is not for everybody. It is not an either/or question, but explained, anger is empowering. He felt in charge, and a both/and question. That is an important point. that he was fighting his corner. What crucified him was The Wythenshawe factory in my constituency does when he was patronised—when a waiter in a restaurant print work and fulfilment work. I pay tribute to the perhaps talked to his wife about what he wanted to eat, manager, Mike Tarry, his predecessor, Alan Reeves, and rather than directly to him. What did he feel then? He Brian Anderson, the trade union rep there for many years. felt shame, because that is what human beings feel when I worked closely with all of them. Altogether, there are they are routinely talked down to. Although my friend 21 staff, 19 of whom are disabled. Their employment is knew that it was the non-disabled person who was at life-changing for them and their families—we should fault and who was ignorant, he still felt the shame. I ask not forget their families. That those people can go out hon. Members what they would rather feel: shame, or and get a full-time job takes pressure off the family anger? I know my answer. and gives parents a real sense of pride in their adult children, seeing what they can do in the world of work. The subsidy could be better used to transform Remploy factories into individual viable businesses and to support Four years ago, when the Wythenshawe factory was more Remploy workers into open employment. The on a list, facing closure, I pulled together a support and money freed up could then be used for more individualised action group including local housing trusts, the local support for disabled people. It is true that past transitions, hospital, Manchester airport and a number of private under previous Governments, have utterly failed some companies in my constituency such as Authentic Remploy employees because of insufficient individual Food Co., Virgin and Select Service Partner—serious planning and support, so it is vital that we learn from organisations. We came together for two things: first, to those mistakes and do things properly this time. save the factory, which, thankfully, we managed to do; and, secondly, not simply to congratulate ourselves on a I urge the Minister to ensure that disabled individuals successful campaign but to work with the factory to working in Remploy factories are fully involved and to build up more sales and business. Based on that experience offer them personalised support, not only with employment of the past four years, I want to make three points to the but also with family and community life. I call on the Minister, which I hope that she will bear in mind, along Minister to do things right this time, if we go down that with the many others that will be made. road. If the Government do that, I believe that tremendous First—this has already been touched on—local factories good will come from the Sayce review, and serious must be given more autonomy and control over their life-changing work will be done on cutting that grotesque budgets and business plans. There is no contradiction in figure of 3 million disabled people not in employment. making that argument and saying that we need Remploy Let us grasp the nettle and begin the journey. Let us to remain in place. The Wythenshawe factory contributes make that difference, so that disabled people can be £135,000 to the central coffers of Remploy.It is particularly what I know they are—the equal of any of us in the galling that the £3,700 a month rate relief from Manchester Chamber today. city council goes not to the factory but to the central coffers of Remploy, which simply cannot be right. The Several hon. Members rose— manager, Mike Tarry, has already demonstrated over recent months the kind of savings that he can make and Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair): Order. Before further the efficiencies that he can drive. If he had more control debate, hon. Members can, clearly, look at the clock over the whole of his budget, he would drive efficiencies and do the mathematics as well as me. It was important that, frankly, the centre of Remploy has failed to do. to balance debate, and Mr Lloyd took several interventions. Secondly, every Remploy factory should be a flagship However, I ask the hon. Members on my list who want in its own community, which is certainly the ambition in to speak to plan for about five minutes, including Wythenshawe. The ambition of the manager and staff interventions. is that every year 50 people will get work experience in the factory, so people can work there not full-time or 3.27 pm for ever but in the short term on the road back to mainstream employment. People can use the experience Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): of the factory in a variety of ways. The factory is about Strongly as I feel about the issue, Mr Havard, I shall not only the long-term employment of 21 disabled bear your advice in mind. I congratulate my right hon. people but all the other opportunities. My constituency Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) on has double the national average for people on incapacity obtaining this important and timely debate. I thank the benefit, and we need opportunities for disabled people Minister for the opportunity to meet a short time ago to to get back into work more than most. The idea of talk about the factory in my constituency, which I closing a factory as a way of getting more disabled appreciated. people into work is ridiculous. 359WH Remploy15 DECEMBER 2011 Remploy 360WH

Finally, we, as Members of Parliament, all have a I recently visited the Remploy factory in Baglan and responsibility to promote our local Remploy factories. was amazed to see the good work going on and the Let me give a couple of figures: this year, the Wythenshawe excellent materials being turned out. It is a furniture print factory will achieve its highest level of sales ever, part of Remploy, and it produces laboratory equipment £460,000; next year, sales are already predicted to be in and equipment for schools, the Ministry of Defence excess of £600,000, including substantial contracts with and a number of other public sector bodies. I met JCB and the City Facilities Management part of Asda, representatives from the factory today, and I was told which provides the in-house cleaning and so on for all that they have a good order book and are putting on an its stores. Those are substantial contracts for the factory, extra shift. In its new way, Remploy can not only deal and the trajectory of sales is upwards all the time. We with employing people with disability but play an important work with the local authorities, other businesses, the part in the local economy. hospital and the airport and airport companies to promote I do not have a Remploy factory in my constituency, the business, so we are on the way. As has been said, because, sadly, it was closed by the previous Government. however, the current uncertainty is making it difficult I have seen a BBC press report that said that it is not for the manger to get out there and to make sales, closing but merging with the operation in Baglan, but I because people keep saying to him, “Aren’t you closing? can tell the Chamber that it did not feel like that in What’s the point of doing business with you if you are Ystradgynlais when it was closed. A lot of people in my facing closure?” So £600,000 sales have been predicted constituency still feel bitter, because many felt that they for next year, and if the factory can get sales up to could not travel down to Baglan, took the redundancy £1 million a year, it will be self-sustaining and not need and have not been able to find employment since. A a penny from anyone. number transferred to Baglan, and I met them when I I have a challenge for the Minister: locally, we are visited. They are gainfully employed and enjoying that prepared to keep working to ensure that sales go up, but experience. Indeed, their families have written to me to £250,000 of print from central Government would secure say how desperate it would be for them if they did not the future of the factory. Out of the millions of pounds have that opportunity in future. that central Government must spend on print, that kind My visit to the Remploy factory in Baglan was an of figure must be possible. I openly admit that, when I extraordinarily positive experience on a number of levels. was in government, we should have done more of that, The operation is outward rather than inward looking, but we did not. It now falls to this Minister to do more: and it engages with the community.Many of the employees £250,000 of print from central Government to the are taking training opportunities in local colleges, but Wythenshawe factory would secure its long-term future the factory is also providing work experience for pupils without a penny of help or support from anywhere else. with disability, so they can see what opportunities might Then, perhaps, we can talk about different models of be available to them not only in that factory but in the ownership, management and all the rest of it, but let us broader working market. It would be a real sadness if do so once we have the factory on a self-sustaining the facility closed down. It would be a loss not only for footing. the people employed there, but for other people, who The idea that we should close factories to get more see it as an example of how disabled people can come disabled people into work is preposterous. It is time for into the workplace. the Minister to be clear that that should not happen and None of us disagrees with the argument that people that we should use the factories that we have as a basis with disabilities should have access to the broader market for building a progressive and better future for disabled labour market. In more benign employment times, when people in work. employers came to me to say that they were short of 3.35 pm people to work in their facility, factory, restaurant and so on, I have encouraged them to take a wider approach Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): It is to labour recruitment and to recruit people whom they a great pleasure to take part in the debate under your may not have believed could play a part in their business chairmanship, Mr Havard. I congratulate the right hon. because of their disability or other needs. Those employers Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) on obtaining were rewarded with a talented, skilful and loyal work this timely debate, which has given hon. Members an force as a result of broadening their recruitment process. opportunity to express their views on employment for There is a role for workplaces such as those provided by disabled people and on how it affects their constituencies. Remploy, and I shall be very disappointed if the The right hon. Lady reminisced about her time in the Government cannot see that as part of providing work European Parliament, and I delivered a few leaflets for experience for people with disabilities. her in her election campaign, although by the time she stood for Westminster, in a by-election a few years later, 3.41 pm I was on the other side. If I say that I am on her side today, it is to support the spirit of her argument. Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): I congratulate I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for the Backbench Business Committee on selecting this Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd), because he showed important issue for debate today and my right hon. considerable courage to speak from his personal experience Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) and and from his experience of working with disabled people other colleagues on their powerful advocacy in support throughout the country as well as in his constituency. of Remploy. I apologise, Mr Havard, for having to leave This afternoon, his contribution achieved something early this afternoon, because I have a long-standing that is rarely seen in the House, because, to an extent, he appointment. changed the mood of the debate. He might not have Remploy workers have my wholehearted support. I carried everyone with his full argument, but he changed know from the packed lobby of Remploy staff in Parliament the mood. in October that there is backing for them throughout 361WH Remploy15 DECEMBER 2011 Remploy 362WH

[Nick Smith] can have a future, but only if it is allowed to modernise with Government support. If we can offer Remploy the country, and I congratulate the GMB and Unite on more public contracts, we should do so. Above all, the their sustained and high-profile campaign on their behalf. Government should get back round the negotiating Workers at the lobby were rightly furious about the table with Remploy workers and trade unions. prospect of losing their jobs. As others have said, the Government should explore The Abertillery Remploy factory in my constituency the use of Article 19 of the EU directive on public was opened in 1949, and in 1955 one of my illustrious sector procurement, which specifies the right of public predecessors, Rev. Llewellyn Williams, called on Ministers bodies to reserve some contracts for supported businesses to ensure that it operated at full capacity, which was such as Remploy, and I encourage other bodies involved then 100 workers. Today, it has just 21 workers. Abertillery in public procurement to utilise that directive. I have Remploy manufactures upholstery for wheelchairs, and been told that in Blaenau Gwent the local council is it does a good job, but it needs more contracts and a doing what it can to boost public procurement and that management that properly sell the skills of its first-class it wants a meeting with Remploy management and the work force. unions in the new year. I know that other hon. Members want to speak, so I shall draw my comments to a close. The world has changed much since the 1950s, and the In a nutshell, it pays to care and to keep Remploy drive for full equality for disabled people is to be workers in work and off welfare. I hope the Government supported. In her review, Liz Sayce said that she wanted will listen today and do everything that they can to employment support that would meet the future aspirations secure Remploy employment in the future. of disabled people in the context of a changing economy and the big changes in the way we all work. I wholeheartedly agree with her top-level analysis, which must be right. Others 3.47 pm today have outlined the Sayce review recommendations, Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): I congratulate my right and there have been some good proposals, such as hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) giving Remploy factories the opportunity to put forward on the debate. It is extremely important at this time. I plans to form new businesses or to retain existing ones. place on record my congratulations and thanks to the It is important that those ideas are independently evaluated. trade union consortium that has done everything it can Sayce also said that non-viable factories should close with the work force at Remploy to try to ensure that and that Government funding should end. However, is there will be employment in future, and hopefully at that really the most sensible strategy in the current Remploy factories. Trade unions are often vilified in the economic climate and when there are few new jobs in House for many things, but that is a great example of the south Wales valleys? Recently in my home town of fine trade unionism. Tredegar in Blaenau Gwent, which is one valley over In his lengthy contribution, the hon. Member for from Abertillery Remploy, 250 people applied for 25 jobs Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd) mentioned George Tomlinson, in a new Tesco store that is about to open. who was the Member of Parliament for Bolton and set Sheffield Hallam university has recently reported on up Remploy shortly after the second world war to look the impact of incapacity benefit reforms in different after people who had been disabled in the war. The hon. parts of the UK. Its report estimates that by 2014 the Gentleman was very selective in his quotations from reforms will cut incapacity claimant numbers by nearly Mr Tomlinson all those years ago, and I shall be equally 1 million, 800,000 of which will be existing incapacity selective. He wanted factories that would enable disabled claimants who will lose their entitlement. As many hon. people to live full and ordinary lives. He also wanted Members are aware, people on incapacity benefits are secure, open employment. I believe that his objectives not evenly spread throughout the UK. There are large all those years ago were the same as the objectives now. variations from just 2.3% of the work force in Wokingham Nothing has changed. That is all that disabled people to 13.9% in Blaenau Gwent in the south-east Wales want. They are not asking for the world. valleys. Wales, the north-west, the north-east and Scotland Under the Sayce report, 54 factories nationally are are the areas that will feel the greatest impact of incapacity facing closure, and that is an issue for the Government. benefit reforms. They are areas where deprivation is I hope that debates such as this will convince them that high, and economies are weak. I am fearful that Remploy that it is not the right thing to do. Since 2008, there have closures in places such as Abertillery will lead to its been between 3,750 and 4,000 voluntary redundancies workers moving not to private sector jobs with the in Remploy factories. During the same period, there appropriate support, but to joining the dole queue was a huge increase in senior management and a huge alongside former incapacity benefit claimants. That is decrease—about 50%—in the number of disabled people the reality of what will happen in many parts of the who were allowed to have employment in Remploy. country I want to mention the Ashington factory in my The GMB has told us that the majority of Remploy constituency, but in view of what you said, Mr Havard, workers who lost their jobs in 2008 are still unemployed, I will be as brief as I can. Many people have rightly so if the factory closures go ahead by April 2013, the mentioned their own constituencies, sticking up for prospect for current Remploy workers is bleak. The their constituents. The Ashington factory makes commercial Government continue to axe jobs, and their plans for and garden furniture. As has been mentioned, initiatives growth are weak. If recovery is choked off, thousands are being driven by the workers, who do the printing, of Remploy workers will be put on the dole alongside produce their own catalogues and deliver leaflets where other workers so, as hon. Members have said, it is likely they can, while senior management at regional level—not that they will claim benefits instead of paying taxes. local level—are doing absolutely nothing to ensure that That forecast is troubling. However, I believe that Remploy people in the Remploy factories are at full production. 363WH Remploy15 DECEMBER 2011 Remploy 364WH

So credit where credit is due to those individuals. All in the work force at Remploy. Many things can be done they want to do is work in the factory, but they see to ensure that we continue to look after the people at senior managers preventing them from doing so. It is a Remploy. It is often said that a society can be judged by deliberate ploy. We are seeing it in other industries the way it looks after its most vulnerable people. We where people are basically strangulated and starved of must look after the most vulnerable and keep the plants work, which makes them look inefficient. It is not open. inefficiency; it is bad management. The local team was fantastic. I also visited Newcastle 3.55 pm Remploy in the constituency of my hon. Friend the John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): The Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon). I met hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) every worker and spoke to each individual, and everyone said that the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Stephen was fantastic. I had a great time. I got a great letter from Lloyd) changed the tone of the debate. He did, because them—I will not read it out. It was inspiring to be in the he made me bloody—sorry; pardon me, Chair—furious Remploy factory speaking to the individuals. Many of about the discussion. I have worked on this issue since I them have given a lifetime’s service: 20, 25 or 30 years served on the first Committee on Restrictions against are not uncommon. They feel as though Remploy is in Disabled People when I worked for the TUC in the their blood. They feel they have given a lifetime to 1980s. That committee tackled discrimination against Remploy, so they do not want to be kicked in the teeth people with disabilities. I have met Remploy workers by the closure of the factory. Remploy has given them since that time. I have met no Remploy worker who is self-esteem and, of course, the independence that everybody ashamed of working for Remploy and who feels that he wants. or she is receiving charity. I have met no Remploy I learned that the Ashington factory was bringing in worker who has lower ambitions than anyone else in the young people from Cleaswell Hill special school in my rest of society. Most of the workers I have met are constituency. They have severe learning disabilities, but proud of working for the company, proud of earning a it was agreed that for the first time in their lives, those living and proud of supporting their families. It is a young people could experience employment at Remploy disgrace to try to depict them in any other way, as the in Ashington. It was a fantastic idea to bring those kids hon. Member for Eastbourne implied. in. I spoke to them on a different occasion; many of The debate around supported employment that I them would not even respond when I first spoke to have been involved in over the past 30 years is based on them. They had a tremendous experience. It was the two issues. One concerns the integrationist debate. When first time that they had had the opportunity of any I served on CORAD, I was a forceful integrationist, employment at all, albeit on a trial basis. I hope that both in terms of employment and education. I was Remploy will consider such schemes on a national basis concerned about separate provision. Over time, one so that we can look after the people who need that sort becomes a pragmatist. In reality, without the Remploy of work. We want to see such schemes extended. That is factories, as we have seen from the redundancies, large what Remploy is for: to look after people who have numbers of people would be unemployed. The redundancies problems and who might not get work in mainstream prove that point: 80% of the 3,000 who have been made employment. redundant in the past three years are now unemployed. The Sayce report will mean the closure of 54 factories. They did not find alternative employment, despite all Up to 3,000 more disabled people will be on the dole, the commitments to identify alternative employment, lacking opportunities. In Ashington, 33 or 34 people training and support. As far as I am concerned, there are applying for every single job. Where will that leave will always be a role for supported employment in some disabled people if they are made unemployed? They will form. have no chance of any employment whatever. We need The second issue concerns how we sustain such to make sure that we look at that. The Remploy trade employment and asks whether supported employment union consortium’s survey shows that there is very little should stand on its own feet, be profit-making and chance of work. If we look at the survey from 2008 to require no support from the state. That will never do. It the present, how many people have been re-employed? will always require, at some stage, a subsidy through It is absolutely alarming. There are 2.65 million unemployed direct income from the state or through public procurement. people at present. What will happen in future? That is the reality. Otherwise, it means putting 2,500 We must listen to the voice of carers and parents of people on the dole. Members here today have made very the sons and daughters who have had opportunities in explicit what will happen in their constituencies. With Remploy factories. They are pleading with the Government 2.5 million people on the dole, those people will never to keep the Remploy factories open. That will give see work in the lost decade that we face. We must face individuals income, independence, self-respect and self- up to that. esteem. It also means that they are not benefit-reliant and are not classed as scroungers. [MR JOE BENTON in the Chair] Evidence shows that unemployment leads to severe Where do we go from here? We simply listen to the depression in many cases. I could go on, but I see workers themselves. It is no use saying that these are Mr Havard is shaking his head, so I will finish by simply hoary old arguments of a decade ago. They are old saying that there is a case of serious mismanagement in arguments, because no one listened then about the Remploy. The answer is to ensure that management are appalling management that was going on. There have accountable. They should stop paying themselves average been 40 consultants crawling over the business during bonuses of £4,600 every year. They should stop taking the past few years. We think that anything between money from individual factories to pay for grand offices £5 million and £15 million has been used to employ up and down the country. They should invest the money consultants to come up with ideas, but no one has 365WH Remploy15 DECEMBER 2011 Remploy 366WH

[John McDonnell] That is the logo on the baton, which I intend to present to my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South listened to the workers. Phil Davies and Les Woodward (Dame Anne Begg) who is present in the Chamber today. have done a fantastic job on behalf of the GMB, as has That was my second visit to the factory and it was Jennie Formby on behalf of Unite. They have worked intended to mark the achievements of disabled people with Remploy workers to bring forward their alternative in my constituency. The aim was to raise awareness strategy, which identified a range of issues that Members about disability and to promote the fundamental rights have raised this afternoon: cut management costs, increase of disabled people, so that they can be fully integrated localised marketing, end centralisation, get consultants into mainstream workplaces. That must happen, however, off people’s backs and let Remploy members make their only when they feel ready for such as move and through companies as profitable as they possibly can. That is all their own choice. they are asking for; it is called worker involvement and There are 386 Remploy employees working in different worker control. The Government say they may look at factories in the north-west, and they do a fantastic job. mutualisation and co-operatives. I quite like the idea of The Heywood factory in my constituency repairs, cleans a co-operative approach, but I do not want it to be used and recycles computers and laptops. E-cycle works closely as an excuse for cutting people adrift from public subsidy with some Departments—I think that the Department or the commitment of existing European legislation to for Work and Pensions is its largest customer, but there encourage public procurement. are others—and also with Manchester city council and My hon. Friend the Member for Swansea West (Geraint Bury council, as well as a number of major private Davies) has demonstrated what can be done at local sector companies to which it provides electronic waste level by touring public agencies and ensuring that contracts solutions and IT recycling. May I suggest to the Minister are won. It is that simple; it is about listening to Remploy that more Departments provide work for and become workers, and not patronising them but working with customers of Remploy? Such a move would both support them and getting off their backs. the system and be cost-effective. I am fearful. This debate is not about the theories When my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath behind integration and separation; it is a fight for (Mr Hain) was Secretary of State for Work and Pensions 54 factories that are about to close unless we have a in 2007, he initiated the modernisation programme, change of attitude from the Government. The Government which we are not against, as I have said, and he provided response to the Sayce report was to go at that report, £555 million to sustain it. When the present Government which effectively means cutting those factories adrift, came to power, they invited the chief executive of Radar, and if they cannot stand on their own two feet, they Liz Sayce, to assess the situation. I have great respect for wither on the vine. That is the reality of this debate. Radar and have worked with it on many issues. In this I conclude with a quote from a Remploy worker—such instance, however, I am concerned about the proposals quotes are moving statements from people and human to make the system more independent from the lives that have been put at risk. Kevin Davies has Government. That is similar to what is happening in the cerebral palsy and has worked at a production plant in public sector across the board and seems to illustrate Baglan for 21 years. He says: what the Government are planning in public sector service provision. The trade unions are unhappy with “I have a role to play and I enjoy being here…I am working with nice people and there is an end product to my work. It has the Sayce report. They see it as a break-up of Remploy given me a quality of life and independence…Without Remploy I that could mean wholesale devastation in the system. would be stuck in the house. Without it, where would I be?” The Disability Alliance supports the Sayce report, He would be unemployed and stuck at home like many which it sees as a way to introduce and integrate skilled of our constituents who are experiencing unemployment disabled people into the workplace and the community, as a result of the redundancies so far. This is a fight for and I accept that. My experience of visiting a local those factories, and if the workers want to fight with factory, however, demonstrated to me that the present whatever means possible—industrial action; occupation— system offers a comfort zone to some vulnerable individuals and we cannot persuade the Government to reconsider, and groups and that those people work confidently and I will be joining them. feel comfortable in such a system. My local factory provides a highly-skilled service and runs a complex system. E-cycling is difficult. Cleaning laptops and 4.1 pm refurbishing computers for industry, not only for the Jim Dobbin (Heywood and Middleton) (Lab/Co-op): UK but for export, is a complex matter. I will begin by agreeing with my right hon. Friend the In my view, the changes envisaged by Sayce are Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins): premature and wrong, and they are happening when, as we are not against change or improvement, but we are hon. Members have said, unemployment is increasing. against destruction, which is the big danger in this case. Unemployment among disabled people is also rising, On 1 December, I visited the Remploy e-cycle factory and now is the time for consolidation and support for based at the Heywood distribution park, to which it the existing system, albeit an improved existing system. moved from Radcliffe in Bury a couple of years ago. I The Remploy system need strengthening, and as I was invited to celebrate the international day of disabled have already said, it would be good if more Departments, people and disabled workers and to present certificates public sector organisations and local authorities put to some long-serving employees. I was presented with a work the way of Remploy. It is important to retain the baton by the staff, which states: dignity of every Remploy employee, and to continue “Help relay the message. Thousands of disabled people across supporting them in the workplace. Unemployment is at the country are aiming high, achieving more and fulfilling their its highest level for many years, and Remploy factories ambitions!” are threatened with closure at this sensitive time. 367WH Remploy15 DECEMBER 2011 Remploy 368WH

I have a personal interest in disability as I have two People have mentioned that the factories provide an grandsons who are wheelchair bound. I want a system opportunity for training. Training is vital in manufacturing that will be there to support them when they reach if we are to get back into growth and stop focusing working age and help them through life—that is not completely on cuts. Clearly, if we just sell off the factories, asking an awful lot. we will see a fire sale of capital assets and the loss of the I will conclude by stressing that the high level of skills for ever. That is not sound financial management. support among Members who have Remploy factories My basic theme is this. Let us focus on what works in their constituencies and want to see Remploy remain and make it work better. Let us accept that people with sustainable has been illustrated by some of the strongly disabilities of varying sorts need subsidies. No one is worded early-day motions that have been placed in the saying that they can go off and succeed without any Table Office over the past few months. I think that support. Let us use the levers at our disposal to make Remploy management and the trade unions should be that work and stop just thinking about how we go about better consulted on the entire issue, because we are closing down 54 factories and making 2,500 people about to lose a very worthwhile service. redundant. Those people are valuable assets in society, in our economy and in our future. Let us keep them doing that. 4.8 pm 4.12 pm Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): I will be brief because other hon. Members wish to speak. I have Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): It is an already said that active intervention locally can make a honour to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Benton. difference, and in my discussions with the Driver and I add my congratulations to my right hon. Friend the Vehicle Licensing Agency, the university and the health Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) on securing authority, we transformed the sales of the Swansea this Back-Bench debate, because for many months workers factory, quadrupled turnover and increased gross margins in the 54 Remploy factories across the country have by tenfold. That is a case for more localised management been waiting for the Government’s decision about their and sales support and for removing the cap on overall jobs. Given the massive unemployment figures announced marketing expenditure, which is less than 1% of turnover. this week, I can only imagine that the anxiety felt by All marketing literature must be checked by civil servants those workers has been heightened. who have no idea about local needs. I am proud to say that my own union, the GMB, has My second point is about subsidies. The Sayce report been supporting the workers at Remploy and last month states that the average subsidy is £23,000, but averages handed in a 100,000-name petition at 10 Downing can be misleading. We all know that the cost of someone street. Quite rightly, it called on the Government to save being unemployed is normally about £10,000 in benefits Remploy. There is clearly a place for trade unionism in and lost tax. In the case of many of the people who modern Britain when workers face such an unfair fight. work for Remploy, it would be much more because of I am speaking in the debate because one of the the health on-costs. That needs to be properly evaluated 54 factories, Remploy Newcastle, is in my constituency, financially. at Benton Square industrial estate in Palmersville, and it has been on that site for the past 32 years. There are Remploy works across a diverse range of markets. 57 full-time employees at the site; 55 of them have There is a case for focusing on whether there are greater disabilities. Those workers produce bedroom furniture, growth opportunities and for examining the different bed bases and mattresses, and assemble and pack cable business cases, rather than saying that it is a case of glands for CMP Products—a locally based company. In either closing all the factories or keeping them all and recent years, the factory has also provided very successful having no change. I do not think that anyone is arguing work placements for more than 100 trainees. In total, for no change. 90% of the work undertaken at Remploy Newcastle is There is a case for focusing on people with severe for north-east companies. That factory is therefore very disabilities. Obviously, those with particularly severe much part of our local economy. disabilities need particular subsidies and support if they Given the threat of the workers at Palmersville losing have virtually no chance of securing other forms of their jobs, through no fault of their own, I am sure that employment. There is a case for considering specific hon. Members will be able to understand why they are labour markets. In areas with very high unemployment, frustrated about the unnecessary redecoration of their it is clear that those people will not get a job. There is a factory and the change in Remploy colours, which has case for considering public procurement, as has been resulted in all signage and stationery being changed at said. the cost of thousands of pounds. They know that they It is also important to consider the specialist opportunities have fantastic skills, including in upholstery, joinery in relation to Remploy. For instance, Swansea Remploy and commercial sewing, but those skills are being wasted is a specialist provider for young offender institutions in as they see their work being deliberately dried up. They Scotland. It makes furniture that young offenders cannot and their unions are rightly angry that, during the past destroy. They cannot break those things; there are no five years, more than £15 million has been spent across screws that they can pull out. It also provides furniture Remploy on consultants. for mental institutions so that the residents cannot On behalf of the Remploy workers and the unions self-harm. The value is in tailor-made, focused transactions, that support them, I ask the Minister to continue to where delivery is within budget and within the time fund Remploy, but instead of taking heed of the frame. As I have already mentioned, it is important to recommendations in the Sayce report, which makes no ensure that key players and key skills are there to make case for the future of Remploy, she should consider the the factories succeed. alternative strategy set out by the consortium of trade 369WH Remploy15 DECEMBER 2011 Remploy 370WH

[Mrs Mary Glindon] which is pretty basic in preparing a business plan, but she refused to give that to me. She said: unions. That strategy makes sense. It sets out a complete “Remploy operations continue as normal and it is therefore review of the whole structure of Remploy, which would not appropriate at this stage to make available commercially result in a much more efficient, sustainable organisation. confidential information on factory operations.” Does the Minister really want to be responsible for How on earth can Remploy factories that are facing ruining the livelihoods of so many disabled employees? closure prepare for the future and try to put together Does she really want to risk her reputation by making meaningful business cases, when the Government, who her final decision based on the evidence of a report that propose to close them, will not give them the information many consider to be flawed? Does she have the courage that they need to take forward business plans? Will the to examine a real viable alternative that will not only Minister please start to recognise that the people who save jobs, but create a more efficient organisation and work in those factories and the communities around support many local economies across the UK? Will she those factories feel passionately about them? Will she consider the alternative strategy set out by the consortium start to be serious about supporting the factories? of trade unions? Individuals deserve a choice, but the Sayce report will take that away. The report suggests that there is no 4.16 pm future for Remploy factories across Britain, but that is Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): It is a pleasure to take entirely the wrong decision. Will the Minister please part in the debate. The hon. Members who are here ensure that she does not become known as the Minister have displayed a great deal of passion. Much of that who destroyed Remploy? passion is due to the fact that we have constituents who work in Remploy factories and that those factories are 4.20 pm in our constituencies. When there was a proposal to close Wrexham Remploy, which I know very well, in Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): I congratulate my right 2007—a similar situation to that described by my right hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale on forcefully making the case to the Backbench Business East (Paul Goggins)—I learned how strongly the work Committee to secure this debate. The debate has been force felt about working in a factory with their colleagues extremely well attended, particularly by the Opposition, in Wrexham. I also discovered how powerful the support considering the many other distractions on a Thursday in the Wrexham community is for the factory. A local afternoon, including an important by-election. councillor, David Bithell, led a campaign to keep the I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for factory open, and for a number of weeks in Wrexham Swansea West (Geraint Davies) for his fantastic work town centre a great deal of support was expressed from with the Fforestfach factory. He brushes over it lightly, within the community. but the work of going out to get all the public procurement, Like my right hon. Friend, we took forward a campaign simply from a meeting back in March and in just three to get more work for the Wrexham factory, which months over the summer, to change the situation of involved more orders for the furniture being manufactured having virtually nothing in the order books to having there. I am pleased to say that that approach has borne those books absolutely full and going out to big purchasers, fruit, and only yesterday Wrexham council made the such as the national health service and the Driver and decision to take forward the purchase of furniture and Vehicle Licensing Agency, to ensure that there is work equipment from the local Remploy factory. I cannot for that factory, shows what can be done. understand for the life of me why that has not been I endorse the comments made by my right hon. happening for the past 60 years, and it must be the Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East model that we follow in the future. I am very pleased to (Paul Goggins), who said that there is no divide between see the Minister nodding her head in that respect, the factories and other schemes to help people get into because the problem with the Sayce report is that it work, and we need both mechanisms. In theory, nothing proposes a model that will take that opportunity away. stops a worker in a Remploy factory from finding a job None of us wants a situation in which people are elsewhere, but the reality is defined by the shocking forced to work in Remploy factories, a situation in unemployment figures—an increase was announced which we create ghettos for disabled people. We want yesterday, and further increases are predicted in the new choice for those people. My concern about the Sayce year. Many Remploy factories are situated in unemployment report is its implicit and explicit statements that the hot spots. In the constituency of my hon. Friend the opportunity to work in individual factories, supported Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), who was present by the local community, will be taken away. There is a earlier, 20 people are chasing every single vacancy, and I very superficial nod in the report to the possibility of know that many hon. Members have similar situations individual factories remaining open. The report talks in their constituencies. about how local factories will have the opportunity to Remploy workers find themselves competing with a survive in the private sector. Let me tell the Minister whole range of people who have been made redundant that many businesses are having a great deal of difficulty from public sector jobs and private sector companies surviving in the private sector at present. Local Remploy that rely on securing sales contracts, which have been factories are not being given the information to enable drastically cut, with the public sector. Many in the them to prepare to build up a meaningful business case private sector are not surviving the economic disasters for their own future. that we are encountering at the moment. All those I wrote to the Minister when I saw the proposal in the people are looking for jobs, and people from Remploy Sayce report and asked her for the details of the income factories find themselves in a difficult position, particularly and expenditure for the Wrexham Remploy factory, if a large number of them are made unemployed at the 371WH Remploy15 DECEMBER 2011 Remploy 372WH same time. I am not patronising Remploy workers, Schools for the Future, which have kept much of the because the same would be true if any other factory in private sector going when the construction sector has my constituency were to close. If a large number of been in absolutely dire times since 2008. That is an people with similar skills enter the jobs market together, important point. they will have many difficulties in finding employment. We need to look at public procurement policies The key is economic growth. We are currently looking thoroughly. We must encourage every single sector in for mechanisms to create more jobs in the private sector, public procurement to look at the whole range of products but we have seen little in the way of strategy from this available from Remploy and conduct specific marketing Government. We have not seen an upsurge in the private on that. I am absolutely convinced that we can make the sector, which is not creating jobs in the way it was factories more viable by doing so. supposed to. There does not seem to be any Government Currently, we need continued support and an individual strategies for doing so. Where we have Remploy factories, assessment of each factory to ensure that everything is infrastructure, machinery, products and some markets, being done to make each factory the best and most why are we throwing all that away? It is nonsense. Every viable business possible. We also need a determined individual factory needs to be looked at carefully, and public procurement policy to save our Remploy factories. strategies need to be developed for each factory to maximise its potential, so that its products can be 4.27 pm marketed properly. Marketing seems to be key. If the marketing strategy Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab): It is a pleasure to is put right, as seems to be the case in Wythenshawe, serve under your chairmanship, Mr Benton. I add my Aberdeen and Swansea West, the purchases will come congratulations to those who have secured today’s debate. in and the order books will fill up. If we can do that, we This is a vital time for those facing threats to their can make the factories as viable as possible, and we can supported employment, and indeed to their welfare, help to create jobs. If we do not do that, the on-costs well-being, health and self-esteem. I shall curtail my and health costs of people being unemployed will be comments because I endorse many of the points that enormous. have been made about procurement and management. We would do a much better job if we made the Why on earth should we abandon an existing state-funded factories as viable as possible, while keeping the Government model purely for ideological reasons when in many support at a sensible pace. We cannot turn the factories factories real dividends are patently being achieved? around overnight, but we can make them more With modernisation, a lot more could be achieved. In economically independent and viable over a period. We Leven, Fife, in my constituency, Remploy marine division would always welcome a mix of workers with disabilities makes high-quality lifejackets and sells them at home and workers who do not have disabilities. That would and in international markets. It is highly competitive, bring people together, and we would like to see that and its order book is full. Yes, the company receives a mix, which is already happening in many factories. We Government subsidy for each employee, but as I said, want viable places, and we want the products that are Remploy is highly competitive. Its employees use their made to be sold. initiative and enterprise, and they are well-trained. Remploy That brings me on to public procurement. Assembly remains in the vanguard in the development of a specialist, Members have a policy by which they purchase their niche market. The subsidy is really an investment in furniture from Remploy factories. I have purchased people, ensuring meaningful work for disabled people furniture from Remploy factories for my office. We need in a sheltered environment. It provides decently paid much greater awareness. My hon. Friend the Member work for thousands of people up and down the country for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) asked why it has not happened who would find it immensely challenging to find before. Well, it used to happen, when there was a greater employment elsewhere. coming together of public purchasing. For example, I wrote to the Minister about the Leven factory and local authorities once purchased everything for their asked what the difference would be between having its schools together, before they began to have local 29 employees in supported work and paying them management of schools and began to buy their own unemployment and disability benefits. I find it incredible things in different ways. We need to return to the same that she could not tell me. To proceed to factory closure sort of consortium purchasing, where we look at what without doing comprehensive homework is, at best, is available or to make what is available more obvious. I cavalier and I suggest that it is, to a degree, irresponsible, have learned, even in this afternoon’s debate, of some even in relation to that small factory. products I did not know Remploy was involved in The closure of a factory in an area where there is 18% producing. There is a lack of awareness, because an unemployment would not only devastate a viable business awful lot of people just do not know what can be but an integrated and mutually supportive community. purchased. Let us make no mistake: although the factory requires Dame Anne Begg: When my Select Committee visited Government investment in people and in the narrowest the Neath Port Talbot factory, we discovered that it had definition it may not be financially profitable, in the had full order books, because it had won a contract for widest terms its dividends to the community make it a Building Schools for the Future, which was, of course, profit-making enterprise. That is the case with many cancelled by this Government. It was beginning to other Remploy factories too. struggle a bit. This Government say that they believe in choice, and the importance of choice is substantiated by a very Nia Griffith: Absolutely. Remploy factories, just as articulate young man who works at Remploy in Leven. I many other private firms, have suffered considerably in make no apology for quoting from a letter that he sent the cuts to the construction programmes and Building to me and indeed to the Minister: 373WH Remploy15 DECEMBER 2011 Remploy 374WH

[Lindsay Roy] I also want to act slightly at odds with normal parliamentary procedure—since we are not in the main “Work is seen as being hugely positive for a person, for their Chamber, I think that I can probably get away with it, social status, their relationships - both in professional and personal subject to your ruling, Mr Benton—by thanking those terms - and their health and well-being, and also their monetary disabled people from Remploy who have travelled to income. My engagement at Remploy was a deliberate choice - observe this debate, including members of the trade there were other options open to me. My experience at Remploy has facilitated independent living - and I have gained at Remploy unions GMB, Unite and Community, who had not things that cannot be bought with wages - but rather earned been mentioned before in the debate. It is an indication through my daily relationships at work. I refer to dignity, self-belief, of how the staff at Remploy feel that they have made respect, routine and structure - and the qualities that engender this journey at this point in the week and at this point in self-reliance and unique identity - an identity that is not defined the day to hear this debate. Regardless of the views that by my condition. They ingrain me with a sense that I am a fully have been expressed—there have been some differing functioning member of society - and it is this human capacity - views, including some subtly differing views—I hope and the potential removal of high quality work, for ideological reasons, that lies at the heart of the matter.” that those staff will recognise that people in this place take Remploy and the issues affecting disabled people That young man is highly critical of Liz Sayce’s branding and the future of disabled people very seriously indeed. of Remploy jobs as non-roles and subsequently non-jobs, and her descriptions of Remploy factories as “ghettos”. I also want to thank my hon. Friends the Members I challenge the Minister, following her visits to Leven for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon), for Glenrothes (Lindsay and elsewhere, to dissociate herself from those alleged Roy), for Bridgend (Mrs Moon), for Wansbeck (Ian remarks. Lavery), for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg), and the hon. Member for The Minister’s central theme is that resources should Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd) for their contributions to be focused on disabled people themselves, rather than the debate. I will come back to the points made by the on institutions. “Institutions” can be considered in this hon. Member for Eastbourne shortly. I am also grateful context as a pejorative term and the description of for the interventions that were made by my right hon. Remploy factories as “ghettos” is offensive. Remploy Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South East factories, which are work organisations where individuals (Mr McFadden), and the hon. Members for St Ives can grow and flourish, must be part of a mixed model (Andrew George) and for Brecon and Radnorshire of provision to meet the legitimate needs and aspirations (Roger Williams). I realise that I have missed out my of disabled people in our society. hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington Finally, given the arguments that have been put forward (John McDonnell) in my list, but I remember his very today, I would like an assurance from the Minister that powerful contribution to the debate. the current Remploy model, with modernisation, will For very personal and obvious reasons, I congratulate remain part of any future planning for supported my right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and employment. I am sure that the quality of output, the Sale East (Paul Goggins), because he and I had many a sense of pride in a job well done and the business and long conversation about the Remploy factory in his community spirit witnessed by the Minister in Leven is constituency and the model that it provided; I will replicated in many Remploy factories throughout the discuss that model later. He illustrated today that, where country. The existing model, with modernisation, makes we can galvanise a community and put in energy and perfect sense as an option for supported employment. commitment, we can make a Remploy factory work. The way that we treat disabled people is a benchmark of Indeed, that comment was echoed by my hon. Friends a civilised society. I urge the Minister to treat Remploy the Members for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) and for Wrexham employees with the dignity, respect and priority that (Ian Lucas), who highlighted that where local leadership they so richly deserve. They want to continue playing is shown, we can make a difference. their part in contributing to the economy and wider society, with all the dividends that that brings. If a Paul Goggins: I pay tribute to the work that my right disabled community in the Remploy factory in Leven hon. Friend did as the Minister with responsibility for can make high-quality life-saving buoyancy jackets that disabled people when we were in Government and I are competitive internationally, surely it is not beyond thank her for the encouragement that she gave to me in the wit of Government not only to keep the factory the days when we were trying to establish the support afloat but to strengthen its business stream and extend a group for the Remploy factory in my constituency; she further lifeline to its employees. has just referred to the conversations that we had about that issue. Does she agree that, as one or two Members have already mentioned, a key group in any area is local 4.33 pm councillors? Councillors are community champions who Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab): Thank you very provide links to the local authority and, because of much, Mr Benton, for calling me to speak. It is a their experience, they can also help to scrutinise some of pleasure to respond to this debate on behalf of the the development proposals. Indeed, will she join me in Opposition and to serve under your chairmanship. I paying tribute to the councillors in my area and elsewhere also particularly want to thank my right hon. Friend who have done that? the Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) for leading the debate today, and the Backbench Business Committee Mrs McGuire: Yes, indeed. We can also look at some for allocating time for it. If there is one thing that all of of the more successful examples of supported employment, us have learned over many years, it is that Remploy and including factories where disabled people work, that its future is of abiding interest to many Members from have had unstinting support from local authorities. Not all parts of the House. all of those factories are Remploy factories. For example, 375WH Remploy15 DECEMBER 2011 Remploy 376WH the Royal Strathclyde Blindcraft Industries factory in future. In opposition, the Government supported a Glasgow has had enormous input and support from the five-year modernisation plan, so why did the Minister local authority. It has supported the factory through embark on a review nearly two years before that timetable thick and thin, and hopefully now through thick again, had been exhausted? I suggest that the five-year plan but obviously business conditions may change. effectively had only two years to run before there was a As I said earlier, I want to refer to the comments of general election, so why did the Minister go for the the hon. Member for Eastbourne. I think that everybody current timetable? With the greatest respect to Liz Sayce, who has spoken in the debate accepts—at least, I hope the five-year plan did not come out of a review, in a few that can be said of everyone—that there is a change in short months, but was the result of extensive financial expectation among most disabled people, and certainly investigations, consultations with the disability lobby among their spokespersons and the organisations that before a consultation document was published, and represent them, and that disabled people want to have a extensive and sometimes very robust discussions with range of choice in employment. Disabled people want the Remploy board and the trade unions, which some of the same range of choice that non-disabled people have. us here will remember. We felt that there had to be a Government support is crucial in helping to deliver on plan with a time frame that would allow Remploy to those aspirations. I say gently to the hon. Gentleman, turn the business around. who I know has a long and honourable history of We have heard today that some of the factories are working in the disability movement, that we cannot being turned around, that order books are overcrowded deliver on the aspirations for the majority if we trample and new businesses are coming in. I agree with my right over the expectations of the few. In many respects, that hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale is the dilemma that we face in discussing the current East that there are still some issues about top-heavy issue. management and decentralisation, and we had the five-year I have heard today from many right hon. and hon. time frame so that the issues could be worked through, Friends and hon. Members about their own experience between the board and the trade unions, with the continued of the Remploy factory in their own constituencies. I support of Government. I can say this only in the share their admiration for those factories, because there kindest fashion: the current situation has created uncertainty is a Remploy factory in Stirling. I visited it on the among workers, and indeed among management, about international day of disabled people and took the baton what will happen, and that is stymieing the development from a young man who works there. As has been said of of Remploy the business. I have some sympathy with other Remploy factories, that company of people in colleagues who suggest that there might be a bit of a that factory in Stirling recognise that Remploy is not withering-on-the-vine strategy behind that. only about a job but about a wider network of social Given the Minister’s intention to embark on this support, economic support, health support and all the course of action, what action did she take to involve the things that disabled people look for. Indeed, Liz Sayce, board of Remploy and its trade unions in discussions in her report, recognised the value of the Remploy about the issues identified in the Sayce report? What environment, and I will read an extract from page 96: recognition did she give to the trade union analysis of “It was clear from this review that the best factories offer job the current operation of Remploy’s enterprises and the satisfaction, a supportive and accessible environment and a reasonable questions it raised about the company’s business practices? income for those they employ.The factories have provided employment Did she take any opportunity to discuss some of the opportunities – sometimes for many years – to disabled individuals. issues with the unions? I am not talking about post- They have also provided a sense of community for their employees. consultation discussion, after the paper was published, Some have pioneered learning and development, often led by but about developing the consultation in line with the Union Learner Representatives, through which individuals have people who have a strong input into the process. There (for instance) learnt to read for the first time, or worked towards qualifications. While some sheltered workshop environments pay is a feeling that the consultation is flawed, not least staff less than the minimum wage, Remploy factories pay above because the Minister perhaps did not appreciate all the the minimum wage and offer good terms and conditions.” implications of the phrase on page 18: I am not going to run away from the fact that, like the “Government is minded to accept the recommendations of the Minister, I have wrestled with some of the issues about Sayce Review”. Remploy. I understand the tensions between wanting to I do not understand how someone can put out a open up everything to disabled people and the fact that consultation and then say what they are minded to do some disabled people want to make a different choice, before the results have come in. and we have to be careful about how we interpret the When the modernisation statement was made to this perceived settled will of disabled people. We also must House on 29 November 2007, the now Minister of recognise the legitimacy of a position that is not the State, Department for Work and Pensions, the right mainstream view of the disability movement—to close hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling) sheltered factories—which is that factories should be made the following commitment: maintained, to give disabled people a choice. That was “Let me assure Remploy and its employees that the next always the position, and those of us parliamentarians Conservative Government will continue the process of identifying who are veterans of the Remploy modernisation programme additional potential procurement opportunities for them and the will remember that my right hon. Friend the Member public sector work force.”—[Official Report, 29 November 2007; for Neath (Mr Hain) made it very clear that there was Vol. 468, c. 451.] still a place within our range of opportunities for supported What efforts have the Minister and her ministerial colleague factory employment. made to fulfil that promise? What discussions has she I want to probe the current consultation with a series had with the major procurement Departments, including of questions to the Minister, which I hope she will be the Home Office and the Ministry of Defence? Has she able to answer, if not this afternoon, in the very near looked to ensure that her own Department has considered 377WH Remploy15 DECEMBER 2011 Remploy 378WH

[Mrs McGuire] off the factories and winding up Remploy enterprises, including all the calculations relating to redundancy even more ways in which it could open up procurement payments, liabilities and creditors, a point made by my opportunities for a business in which it has a significant hon. Friend the Member for Glenrothes? How do they investment? What discussions has she had with colleagues relate to the current budget, and how much money will in the Department for Communities and Local Government actually be transferred to other Government support to encourage local authorities to consider opening up programmes after all those issues are taken into account? opportunities for individual local factories? What efforts has she made to encourage her colleagues to identify Dame Anne Begg: On the Government’sWork programme procurement opportunities under article 19? If she is and their desire to get more disabled people into work, still “minded” after the consultation process closes, without the factories, there will be fewer opportunities what responsibilities will the Government have towards for work experience to give people the skills, expertise Remploy? and background that will allow them into open employment. Why is the current pension scheme issue raised in the We cannot do away with the factories if we are serious consultation? Currently the DWP guarantees the company about getting people with severe disabilities into open pension scheme, but would it still exist? How would it employment. The only employers likely to be able to be managed, and would the DWP have a role in that give them that experience are those such as Remploy management? Is the pension fund currently in surplus factories. or deficit, and by how much? If it is in shortfall, what measures will be taken to deal with that? It looks as Mrs McGuire: My hon. Friend makes an important though the Minister has the figures to hand, but if she point that has been echoed by other colleagues in this does not I would be pleased if she could advise us after debate. The Remploy factories have changed how they the debate. What range of companies does she have in operate, including working with local special needs mind that might wish to buy all or some of the Remploy schools. They open up opportunities. She will know factories? Has she, or have her officials, had any that they are not a destination but a stepping stone to communication with any such interested parties? the world of work. Disabled people can work in a range of industries and with a range of skills. I support the The Minister indicates in her consultation that staff opening up of opportunities, with the support of trade might wish to consider acquiring the enterprise businesses, unions, workers and management, as part of modernisation. and that they could do so. The consultation also indicates At a factory in Causewayhead in my constituency last that expert advice would be there to assist, but would week, I was told how many people were coming to the any provision be made for a front-loaded capital investment factory through the training annexe. Training opportunities on the part of Government? Would the DWP consider were being opened up to a range of disabled and a legacy to those factories, given the deep and extended non-disabled people. She makes a good point. relationship between Government and Remploy? Those are all unanswered questions in a consultation. I have left one important issue until the end. Why has the Minister decided effectively to renege on a deal Ian Lucas: My right hon. Friend is making a powerful made with people who decided to stay with Remploy case. Does she agree that one great weakness of the under the modernisation programme? I refer her to Sayce report is its complete lack of detail about what page 19 of the consultation document, which says: alternative model for going forward would be available “The implication of the recommendations in the Sayce Report to individual plants and factories? We are in a state of is that, if accepted”— uncertainty about those individual plants, and they she has already said that she is minded to accept them— have no real knowledge of what is proposed for their “Remploy in its current form would not exist…The Government future if the proposals go ahead. will therefore not be able to give undertakings that staff”, who are covered by protection of their working conditions, Mrs McGuire: My hon. Friend is correct. I do not salaries and pensions, blame Liz Sayce for that, as her report dealt with “will not be made compulsorily redundant as a result of such principles and the direction of travel, but we can criticise changes, including the modernisation group.” the consultation for lacking fundamental details on Modernisation came about as the result of protracted some of the questions affecting the disabled people who and difficult discussions. I will be disappointed if the currently work for Remploy. Minister and her Government run away from the decisions If the businesses are to be transferred, what provision and agreements made and accepted by her party when will be made to safeguard terms and conditions? Will they were in opposition to maintain terms and conditions they be guaranteed under the Transfer of Undertakings even for those who chose not to or were not in a (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006, or will position to move into other full-time employment. That people be sacked and rehired under inferior terms and was our deal with people who had given a lifetime of conditions? Liz Sayce complimented Remploy on delivering service to Remploy. Frankly, if my interpretation of her good terms and conditions for its workers, but again, consultation document is accurate, I am disappointed. the consultation says nothing about that. The Minister cannot distance herself from the economic The consultation mentions a comprehensive package situation in which we find ourselves, a situation underlined of support, which is one of the Sayce recommendations. by yesterday’s unemployment figures. Does she accept What does the Minister have in mind? What kind of that even if she is minded to make that decision, making support will it be? How will it be delivered, and by it in the current economic environment looks almost whom? Has she factored the costs of that support into like abandoning her duty of care to the disabled employees her budget for the winding-up of Remploy? What who have given many years of service to the company assessment has she made of the costs involved in selling that she effectively owns? 379WH Remploy15 DECEMBER 2011 Remploy 380WH

The Minister cannot hide behind the views of the Maria Miller: The right hon. Lady and I are, therefore, disability lobby to justify her actions. Indeed, one leading absolutely at one. This Government have made it clear disability organisation, Scope, while accepting the principle that, despite the very difficult financial situation that we of closure, says on page 101 of the Sayce review: have inherited, we will continue to support the “However, given the harsh economic climate, we recognise the modernisation plan. We are in year four of that plan, need for transitional protection for the 3,000 employees currently and it is absolutely right that we should plan for the located in the Remploy factories and suggest that full closure is future. It would be wrong and a dereliction of our deferred until the employment environment has recovered.” duties not to look to the future, particularly given the Even one of the organisations supporting the direction fact that the modernisation plan has, it pains me to say, of travel says that now is the wrong time to make that struggled to be achieved. decision. The right hon. Lady and others have asked a lot of During the past two hours or so, the Minister has detailed questions. I want to answer as many of them as heard the passion and commitment expressed by hon. I can, so I hope that hon. Members will forgive me if I Members from all parties. I hope that she will seriously keep interventions to a minimum. The first was the consider those points of view. I hope that her phrase right hon. Lady’s question about whether we support that the Government are “minded to accept” was an the modernisation plan. The answer is absolutely. We unfortunate slip of the pen and that her mind is still are in year four of it. There is great concern about the open. Not only do disabled people fear unemployment, failure to meet its targets, but we are continuing to make they experience fear every day due to negative media sure that the money is available and that we put in the headlines about disabled people and their lives in the required effort to see the plan continue. community. I think that she is an honourable lady, and I I discussed both the modernisation plan and the hope that as a result of this debate, she will take away Sayce report with the trade unions and the Remploy some of the points made and see that there is a flexibility board at a recent meeting in Leicester, and my officials of approach and that nobody is tied to a model of will have further meetings with the unions in, I think, Remploy that is stuck in the past. We want a network of the second week of January. The right hon. Lady should supported factories in local communities and linking be reassured that we are trying to do the same thing as into local networks that deliver good-quality jobs and the previous Administration, which is to take something experiences for many young people for many years to that was created in 1946 to rehabilitate ex-service personnel come. after the second world war and try to find a sensible and constructive way forward in these difficult times. 4.58 pm The right hon. Lady also talked about a number of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work issues in relation to terms and conditions for those in and Pensions (Maria Miller): It is a great pleasure to the Remploy plan who took redundancy. I am sure that serve under your chairmanship, Mr Benton, and under she already knows this, but I wish to clarify that those that of Mr Havard, who is no longer in his seat. I terms and conditions were for the period of the plan. congratulate the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) on securing this debate and right hon. and The world has changed immeasurably over the 65 years hon. Members on making a strong case on their since Remploy was established. Our responsibility as constituents’ behalf for the importance of providing the constituency Members of Parliament, Ministers and appropriate support for disabled people to get into Opposition Members is to make sure that we look employment. I, too, note that many people in this room forward to the future and make sure that we have the today other than right hon. and hon. Members have an right support available for disabled people to be able to interest in that. reach their full potential in life. That is our responsibility and our Government’s focus. It is also important to note how much time hon. Members have taken to come talk to me. My hon. In Britain, our manufacturing industry faces increasingly Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd), competitive markets from overseas. The overall development the hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) of Remploy over the years has not been focused on the and the right hon. Members for Wythenshawe and Sale business environment in which it operates. That is a East (Paul Goggins) and for Cynon Valley have all plain fact. Some sectors, such as the automotive sector taken a great deal of their own time to ensure that they and CCTV, have been able to develop offerings of put their views in a measured and sensible manner, and higher value-added products and services, but they are I thank them all. the exception, not the rule. The vast majority of the It was interesting to follow the right hon. Member for network continues to produce products that, as a nation, Stirling (Mrs McGuire), who speaks for the Opposition. we are more used to seeing imported from overseas and, Having been in my place, she is right to say that we face indeed, at lower costs. a dilemma. She stated that she understands the tensions. Fifty-five per cent. of disabled people in this country I have no doubt that she does, having done this job work in offices, shops and public services, and—my before me, but what was not clear is exactly what the hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne has talked Opposition’s position is. She might feel that she has eloquently about this—increasingly want to be involved made her position clear, but it was not clear to me. in all aspects of employment and be part of a national work force. When I talk to employers such as BT, Royal Mrs McGuire: I have made it clear that we expected Mail and B&Q, I start to feel heartened about a change the five-year plan that was in place to run its course. in attitude among employers towards employing disabled The problem is that it is the Minister who has to wrestle people. That is only a start, and there is still a great deal with the decisions, but I have made our position very more to be done. I do not underestimate the challenges clear. that we all face to overturn entrenched attitudes. 381WH Remploy15 DECEMBER 2011 Remploy 382WH

Jim Dobbin: It just so happens that, before I came to Administration, including closing and merging 29 sites, this debate, I attended a reception held by the Council has simply not addressed the fundamental weakness in for Disabled Children in the Jubilee Room next door. A the business model. young man spoke to me about the situation, and I told The right hon. Member for Cynon Valley mentioned him about this debate. He told me that he had just lost my comment that I was minded to accept the consultation’s his job. I asked him why, to which he replied, “Because I proposals. I want to make it clear that I have not yet am disabled.” I asked him how he was disabled, and he made a final decision about the consultation, but I am said that he was deaf. He has tried and tried to get persuaded that there is a need for change and that the re-employed, but he has failed. Sayce review suggests a persuasive model for such change.

Maria Miller: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op): intervention. The answer is that there is a great deal of Is the Minister aware—I believe that she is—of the legislation that would support that young man. I hope Blindcraft factory in Glasgow, which is a very successful that the hon. Gentleman’s advice to him was to seek supported employment workplace? Will she acknowledge legal redress, although the particular instances of the that it is the business plan, not the business model, that circumstances would need to be taken into consideration. is failing, as the management themselves acknowledged Our responsibility is to plan for the future and for to her and me earlier this year? young men like that who want to be able to work in the same jobs as their peer group in a class, and to make Maria Miller: I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. sure that they have the ability to do that, not only We have met on several occasions to discuss the issue. through legislation, but through the attitudes of their There are examples of areas where there can be success. employers. Indeed, the hon. Member for Swansea West has walked the talk and made sure that the procurement issue has Procurement has been mentioned a number of times. been uppermost in his local authority’s mind, and he Indeed, the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley raised has been very successful in that regard. There are the issue right at the beginning of the debate. It has opportunities for success, but the problem is that that been suggested that an increase in procurement sales, success is not across the board. particularly from local authorities, would resolve Remploy’s current problems. In its briefing for this debate, the I have already confirmed that the amount of money GMB initially chose to criticise the support provided by going into specialist disability employment is not the local authorities for Remploy, but, for the record, I issue, because we have protected that pot of money. want to thank local authorities for their support for This is about ensuring that that money works hardest Remploy. The hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) for disabled people. This is not about reducing funding; has talked about his local authority’s work in that it is about using the money most effectively in whatever regard. Moreover, the local authorities in Blaenau Gwent, way that comes about. We have to consider those Swansea, Merthyr Tydfil and Newcastle already support alternatives. Remploy. Indeed, my own county council in Hampshire I have met Remploy trade union representatives on a also supports Remploy and is very proud to do so. It is number of occasions to discuss the matter. I have visited important that we do not underestimate the existing factories and listened to the views of employees, and I support. We are most grateful and thankful for it. attended one of the consultation events in Reading in September. Let me restate that the Government’s commitment is to the five-year modernisation plan Ian Lucas: Local authorities cannot support Remploy introduced in 2008. We are now in year four of that and if Remploy is not there. those targets are not being met. Last week, Remploy published independently audited Maria Miller: The hon. Gentleman will know that annual reports and financial statements for 2010-11, the consultation talks about freeing Remploy from the which revealed that the Department for Work and control of Government and making sure that successful Pensions spent £68.3 million supporting 2,200 disabled organisations can continue to thrive. people in Remploy enterprise businesses at an annual cost of £25,000 per person. That is £5 million more than To return to the specific point that Members have in 2009-10 and is more than 20% of the total budget addressed at great length, there are examples of local available to help disabled people into work through the authorities and Remploy working together, but the problems specialist employment budgets. We have to take a long in the factories will not be addressed by that alone. hard look at the situation. Article 19, to which Members have referred, is clearly a way to help public bodies use supported businesses, but Geraint Davies: Does the Minister accept that there is it does not address the issue of value of money that a case for some job subsidy, even if it is as low as the procurement officers always need to consider, nor does amount that that person would otherwise be paid for it guarantee that Remploy will be given work in competition unemployment benefit and health on-costs, or is she with other supported businesses. going to stick to her guns and say that there should be The issues currently faced by Remploy factories are no subsidy and we should therefore make a loss to the not new, and concern over the increasing cost, low Exchequer? productivity and sustainable jobs for disabled people has been an issue since the 1990s. The operating loss for Maria Miller: The hon. Gentleman asks a very detailed the factories has increased into tens of millions of question. He knows that we have not yet made the pounds, and the steps taken under the modernisation decision about the way forward. A significant amount plan, which was rightly introduced by the previous of money is available to support disabled people. My hon. 383WH Remploy15 DECEMBER 2011 Remploy 384WH

Friend the Member for Eastbourne talked about the that the workers in that factory are involved in building Access to Work programme, which he rightly said is a success of the business. There are 27 people in the exceptionally effective. The Sayce report clearly says Ashington factory, but I remind him that there are more that if decisions are made about the prioritisation of than 10,000 disabled people in his constituency. I want the available money, more money—significant amounts to ensure that more of those people get the sort of of money—could be yielded to support Access to Work. support that they need, so that we can ensure that they That could well be the sort of support that the hon. are not only in employment, but reaching their potential Gentleman’s constituents in Swansea West would want. in life. The right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale John McDonnell: Will the Minister give way? East raised a number of incredibly important points. He and I have had long and, for me, useful discussions Maria Miller: Will the hon. Gentleman forgive me if about his experience in this area. His main point was I make some progress? He and others have raised a lot the importance of ensuring more local control and of points, and I want to be able to deal with them. autonomy for the factories. He is very much echoing the Sayce review in saying that, if we are to drive effectiveness The chairman’s annual report confirms that, last and have a successful network of factories in the future, year, on average, half Remploy’s factory employees had it might be useful to consider enabling people such as little or no work to do and that the operating results for the manager whom he talked about to have more autonomy. the factories have been significantly out of line with the Again, there are 19 people at the factory in his constituency, modernisation plan. The perception that Remploy has where more than 15,000 disabled people live. I want to turned work away is, I am afraid, simply unfounded. ensure that more help is available for them to be able to Some bids have been unsuccessful because they do not succeed in their lives and secure jobs that they can do. have the required capability or capacity in the factories, and sometimes Remploy has been outbid on price. The hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) talked about the fact that it pays to care. Again, he and I The right hon. Member for Cynon Valley talked are as one on that. He talked about the importance of about the order books being strong. The simple truth is ensuring that people who are subject to changes in their that, even at full capacity, the factories are still making jobs are looked after. For the record, some 1,809 large losses, which demonstrates that the business model redundancies were put in place by the previous is wrong. That is why I asked Liz Sayce to review not administration. The figures seem to have got jumbled only Remploy, but the specialist disability employment up over time, so I thought it would be useful for hon. programmes that we have available. Members to have the facts. Some 1,611 of those people The annual report also confirmed that Remploy were disabled. Indeed, when we consider the facts and employment services have been able to secure 20,000 figures, we can see that just under 40% of those individuals job outcomes in the past year at a one-off unit cost of took early retirement. Some 252 people took modernisation £3,300 per job. We should absolutely applaud that. terms and continue to be in employment elsewhere. Of Remploy employment services have been making great those people who took the support on offer, some 70% headway for many thousands of disabled people. I found work. The problem was that not enough people should like that to be recognised in this debate. took that offer of support. That is the learning from the My hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne talked previous modernisation plans that were put in place. about alternative support for disabled people, particularly The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John Access to Work. I absolutely understand his support for McDonnell) was very critical of the previous administration that programme, which has great potential if we have in his comments. I would not be so critical. I think that the funding available to support it. We should all be they were trying to do the right thing. pleased that there are opportunities in all our constituencies for Remploy employment services to help disabled people John McDonnell: Will the Minister be clear about the into employment through the work that it does with future before she finishes? She says that she accepts the organisations such as Asda, BT, Marks and Spencer, Sayce report. The Sayce report says that Remploy enterprises Sainsbury’s, Tesco, McDonald’s, the Royal Mail and will be given six months to prepare a business plan and the NHS. That has been its achievement over the past then 24 months to implement it, by which time all 12 months; indeed, results of a similar magnitude are subsidy will be withdrawn. So there will be no subsidy predicted for the next 12 months. within two years of the implementation of a business I shall talk briefly about some of the specific points plan. Is that what the Government are saying? raised by hon. Members. The hon. Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) asked whether I would consider Maria Miller: No, that is not what the Government the consortium of trade unions plan. Absolutely. I will are saying. The Government are still consulting on the look at all the plans that have been put to us. I am Sayce review, as the hon. Gentleman will be aware. I particularly interested in the trade unions’ approach. have said that we are minded to accept these things, and The Secretary of State and I have made it very clear that as we move forward, we might or might not accept we would be delighted for the trade unions to propose proposals in that report. We may accept them piecemeal ways that they want to work with us to free the factories or in their entirety. That is yet to be decided, so he will from Government control and to ensure that they can have to bear with me—as I am sure that he is willing to have a successful future. We will always be open to do—for a little while longer, so that we go through the thoughts being given to us on that front. proper processes with all these things. The hon. Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) talked The hon. Member for Swansea West—I see that he is about the involvement of the workers in the Ashington not in his place—talked about there perhaps being factory in his constituency.It is absolutely to be commended problems with recruitment. Yes, indeed, because of the 385WH Remploy15 DECEMBER 2011 Remploy 386WH

[Maria Miller] to look at the scandalous practice of management still collecting millions of pounds in bonuses. Has she decided austerity that we are under at the moment, controls on to take action on that? new Government recruitment are in place. Owing to its non-departmental public body status, Remploy is covered Maria Miller: The hon. Lady has raised the issue of by those controls, but I absolutely assure hon. Members bonuses before. I think I can remember either writing to in the Chamber today that since the austerity measures her or perhaps replying in detail. It is vital that any came into force, Remploy has successfully applied for business is run in a proper way. As an incoming exemptions through this process, where requests have Government, 18 months ago we took over a set of been approved, to ensure that we can continue commercial commitments that the previous Administration had put operations. There are absolute safeguards in place to in place. That included many things including not only ensure that the business can continue in the way that it the modernisation plan, but the issue of bonuses for needs to. senior managers at Remploy. The performance incentive The right hon. Member for Cynon Valley mentioned payments in the annual report—the statement made expensive consultants. She and I have a joint dread of this year—relate back to 2009-10. The executive directors the idea of having expensive consultants in place. I are contractually entitled to those payments, but, assure her that since austerity measures have been unfortunately, those contracts predate this Administration. introduced, Remploy has not used consultants. I cannot The hon. Lady may know that there are legal issues that speak for the previous Administration, but that is something we have to be aware of. The Department has no power that we feel very strongly about. to limit bonuses, but from 2010-11 all Remploy’s executive The hon. Member for Wrexham talked about when team and senior managers have agreed to cap their financial information will be available. As I have already bonuses in line with the senior civil service bonus cap. made clear, no decision has been made on the That was a particular request made by the Secretary of recommendations of the Sayce review to date, so it State, so that we can ensure that there is some— would not be appropriate or possible for me at this stage [Interruption.] to release financial information on a decision that is yet to be taken. We have to ensure that we adhere to the John McDonnell: Are they getting a bonus? Even right proprieties. He would expect us to do that as a though they are failing, are they getting a bonus? Government, and I assure him that, as soon as decisions are made, the appropriate information will be forthcoming Maria Miller: As the hon. Gentleman has just heard for anybody who is interested in that detail. me say, his Government put those contracts in place. The Remploy pension scheme has been mentioned. [Interruption.] Sorry, Mr Benton, I was not giving way. To assure individuals who may be concerned about comments that have been made about that, the Government Mr Joe Benton (in the Chair): Order. Either submit an have promised to protect fully the accrued benefits of intervention, or allow the Minister to answer. pension scheme members in the event that the pension scheme were to close following the implementation of Maria Miller: Thank you, Mr Benton. I was in the the Sayce review recommendations. It is an unfortunate process of trying to answer that intervention. What is fact that we have identified a £104.6 million deficit in very clear is that there are legal issues. We are contractually the valuation of the pension scheme, which we inherited. obliged to pay those bonuses, and we have been advised A deficit repayment plan has been put in place, which is that there is no alternative. The hon. Gentleman can important because we want to ensure that both employees take that up with his colleagues. and pension scheme trustees are confident in the propriety of the finances of the scheme. Payments of £7.4 million, Stephen Lloyd: I thank the Minister for giving way. I £25.8 million and £21.5 million have already been made very deliberately have not intervened, because the previous into the scheme, which shows the commitment that this Chair was very kind and gave me a long time and Government have, in tough economic times, to ensuring people were very patient, but I am grinding my teeth a that we stand by our obligations and our commitments wee bit. Does my hon. Friend agree that this has been to Remploy staff. going on for years under both Governments and is I want to ensure that the right hon. Member for incredibly intractable, which is why we are still here? Cynon Valley who secured the debate has a few minutes The whole issue is a complete red herring. We have at the end to sum up. absolutely no choice, because we have to implement what the previous Government actually agreed. Ann Clwyd: I am very happy to give my time to the Minister, because there are a lot of questions left Maria Miller: My hon. Friend is absolutely right that unanswered. If she would like my extra time, I am very we should not get away from the facts here. Disabled glad to give it to her. people listening to this debate expect us to show a way forward for the future. All the meetings that I have had Maria Miller: That is extremely kind of the right hon. with the leading disability organisations on this issue Lady. I have managed to race through most of the have made it clear that disabled young people, as was issues that I want to cover—I think that I have actually said in an earlier intervention, want to ensure that they managed to cover almost everything raised by hon. have sustainable jobs in the future. Those disabled young Members. people want to make sure that they learn the skills that will give them those sustainable jobs into the future, Gemma Doyle: The Minister is drawing to a conclusion, which is my priority. That is where I want to ensure the but I do not think that she has mentioned the issue of Government’s funding is being placed. We have made it bonuses, which we discussed earlier this year. She promised clear that this money is ring-fenced, so it is secure. 387WH Remploy15 DECEMBER 2011 Remploy 388WH

The issue is about getting the best outcomes for disabled meetings that we have had in recent weeks. However, we people. Some hon. Members questioned whether this need to look at the evidence. We need to be driven by was the right way forward. I tell them first, second and that evidence and ensure that we are committed to the third that we will make sure that the priority is the best best decision for the future of disabled people. I recognise outcome for disabled people. That is what comes first how vital it is to join up with work across Government rather than vested interests or the history, because we to improve employment outcomes for disabled people. I have to look at the future. have already answered one of the requests in the Sayce report to establish a cross-Government Committee that Lindsay Roy: Will the Minister distance herself from considers disabled people’s employment. the comment that Remploy factories were ghettos? Ann Clwyd: Disabled people want jobs and the jobs Maria Miller: The hon. Gentleman is asking me to are not there. Where are they going to come from? comment on something that I do not think I would ever say. [Interruption.] What I would say is that we have to Maria Miller: The right hon. Lady makes a timely listen to what disabled people want. Disabled people tell intervention. She will know that in her constituency me that they want to live independent lives in communities 37 people are employed in a Remploy factory, and like everybody else. To be able to do that, they want to she has more than 13,000 disabled people in her have the jobs that everybody else would expect as well. constituency. My responsibility is to ensure that more I fear that I will run out of time if I do not wind up of those 13,000 people get the support they need to get my remarks quickly. In conclusion, getting this right is into work. We know that there are almost 700 vacancies absolutely crucial for millions of people—millions of in Jobcentre Plus in her area, and that Remploy employment our constituents. It is only right that we take the time to services in Merthyr Tydfil has placed 254 disabled consider the consultation representations before making people into employment. In the Rhondda, that figure is any decisions. I have not yet made a decision about the 163 disabled people into employment; in Bridgend, it is future, and an announcement will be made as soon as is 251. practically possible. Hon. Members can be sure that I will consider carefully not only the points that have 5.30 pm been raised today, but the points that have been raised Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order by hon. Members and right hon. Members in the many No. 10(11)).

107WS Written Ministerial Statements15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 108WS Written Ministerial Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Act 2010

The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark Statements Hoban): Mr David Anderson QC has completed his first annual report as independent reviewer of terrorist Thursday 15 December 2011 asset-freezing legislation. The report covers the first nine months’ operation of the Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Act 2010 and will be laid before the House today. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS The Government are grateful to Mr Anderson for his detailed report and will consider carefully his recommendations. The Government’s response to his EU General Affairs Council (Pre-Council Statement) report will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses on or before 15 February 2012. The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk): The General Affairs Council CABINET OFFICE will take place in Brussels on 16 December 2011. The agenda will cover structural and cohesion funds. I will Public Bodies Reform represent the UK. The substantive agenda item will be a policy debate on the structural and cohesion funds for 2014-20.The The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster Polish presidency has tabled three questions for discussion: General (Mr Francis Maude): The coalition Government whether the common strategic framework should be made a commitment to review public bodies, with the approved by the Council and the European Parliament, aim of increasing accountability for actions carried out or adopted solely by the European Commission; whether on behalf of the state. Royal Assent of the Public country-specific recommendations or national reform Bodies Act 2011 marks an important milestone in this programmes should provide a linkage between EU2020 process which will allow Departments to get on with the goals and the development needs of regions and member important task of delivering the reforms I announced states; and whether funds should be ring-fenced for on 14 October 2010. Today, I am placing in the Library specific objectives. There will also be an informal lunch of the House an updated list of proposals for the which will look at whether both negative and positive reform of public bodies and guidance to support the incentives are necessary to ensure that funds deliver on programme of orders that will follow Royal Assent of EU2020 objectives. the Public Bodies Act 2011. Copies will also be available in the Vote Office. The Government’s objective for the Council will be to ensure the funds contribute to addressing the priority This Government made a presumption that state areas to support growth and are delivered in a way activity, if needed at all, should be undertaken by consistent with member state’s broader economic strategies. bodies that are democratically accountable at either national or local level. A body should only exist as a quango if it meets one of three tests, to which all existing public bodies have been subjected. These tests TREASURY are: Does it perform a technical function? NICs Holiday Factsheet Do its activities require political impartiality? Does it need to act independently to establish facts? Some14 months on from my original announcement, The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David we have made strong progress. We now have a legislative Gauke): In line with my commitment during the passage mechanism in place to implement current and future of the National Insurance Contributions Act 2011, I proposals for reform. We have announced that cumulative am today placing in the Libraries of both Houses a reductions in administrative spending of £2.6 billion report on the functioning of the NICs holiday scheme. will flow from public bodies over the spending review The report provides information on: the number of period. Where legislation was not required we have applications received, the number of businesses benefiting already completed more than half of the abolitions in 2010-11, the amount by which they benefited and the proposed by the 2010 review, and we have already number of jobs supported through the NICs holiday. started the process of conducting regular, triennial reviews The information is presented by region and constituency of all non-departmental public bodies. These triennial where possible. To date, just over 10,000 applications reviews will ensure that never again will the quango have been made for the scheme. state be allowed to spiral out of control. The holiday was announced in the June 2010 Budget Today I am able to confirm the 31 non-departmental and is designed to encourage the creation of private public bodies that Departments have identified for reviews sector jobs in regions reliant on public sector employment in the first year of the three-year review cycle: by reducing the cost to new business of employing staff. Advisory Committee on Business Appointments, Cabinet The holiday exempts qualifying new businesses in eligible Office; regions from up to £5,000 of employer national insurance Committee for Standards in Public Life, Cabinet Office; contributions for each of the first 10 employees hired in Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service, Department the first 12 months of business. This is part of a wider for Business, Innovation and Skills; set of policies designed to help businesses and stimulate Industrial Development Advisory Board, Department for growth in the regions. Business, Innovation and Skills; 109WS Written Ministerial Statements15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 110WS

Treasure Valuation Committee, Department for Culture, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Media and Sport; Reviewing Committee on the Export of Works of Art, Department for Culture, Media and Sport; Troubled Families Independent Agricultural Appeals Panel, Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs; High Speed 2, Department for Transport; Industrial Injuries Advisory Council, Department for Work The Secretary of State for Communities and Local and Pensions; Government (Mr Eric Pickles): The coalition Government Fuel Poverty Advisory Group, Department of Energy and are committed to turning around the lives of the 120,000 Climate Change; most troubled families in England by the end of this Committee on Radioactive Waste Management, Department Parliament. of Energy and Climate Change; I am working with Cabinet colleagues and local areas Foreign Compensation Commission, Foreign and to ensure that these families are supported into education Commonwealth Office; and employment, that their crime and antisocial behaviour Advisory Committee on the Design of Coins, Medals and are tackled, and, that overall costs to the state are Decorations, HM Treasury; reduced. Louise Casey is leading this work for me, as Migration Advisory Committee, Home Office; head of a new troubled families team in my Department. Technical Advisory Board, Home Office; I can announce today that a total of £448 million will Veterans Advisory and Pensions Committees, Ministry of be made available from the existing budgets of six Defence; Departments to meet this commitment over the next Central Advisory Committee on Pensions and Compensation, three years. £420 million of this will fund action and Ministry of Defence; interventions in areas across England by local authorities National Employer Advisory Board, Ministry of Defence; and their partner agencies, and £28 million will be used and to boost the Department for Work and Pensions’ support Legal Services Board, Ministry of Justice; for troubled families. Triennial reviews will be based on the success of the Central to the Government’s approach is for local methodology applied during the 2010 review of public agencies to be to able to clearly identify and focus on bodies which looked at whether a function was required their priority families. I am therefore also sending out and, if it was, whether it should exist at arm’s length an estimate of the number of families that should be from Government. Quangos will be required to meet targeted in each local authority area. I will set clear one or more of the three tests listed above. expectations for results to be achieved with these families, Triennial reviews will build on this methodology by and will use this funding to incentivise local authorities including a further stage to examine whether the body’s to ensure the lives of these families are turned around, control and governance arrangements continue to meet and to give them and their children the opportunity to the recognised principles of good corporate governance. succeed. As well as an opportunity for continuous improvement Local authorities will work with their partner agencies the reviews will help departments consider new and to provide focused engagement with each family, and more innovative models for delivering services through avoid the duplication of effort and resources that has public bodies. been a feature of so much of the response to these Once the first tranche of reforms have been delivered, families to date. Delivering this commitment will require and the process of ongoing triennial reviews is firmly the full co-operation of central Government and local established, the UK public bodies landscape will look government; public sector agencies and voluntary radically different and be substantially smaller. We will organisations—and the families themselves. ultimately have reformed more than half of the 904 public bodies in scope of the 2010 review and the The Government will offer local authorities up to landscape will contain more than 250 fewer public 40% of the cost of intervening in a troubled family, bodies. The landscape will be more accountable, with payable primarily on a payment-by-results basis when Ministers taking strategic policy decisions and controlling successful outcomes have been achieved. These successful core costs and releasing the front line to deliver services. outcomes will be simple and straightforward: ensuring Public bodies will no longer be seen as confusing, children are attending school; criminal and antisocial distant and impenetrable to the public, and Ministers behaviour is reduced, and adults in the family are on the will be clearly and transparently accountable for decisions path to employment. that should be taken by elected representatives. The new programme will also fund an England-wide The landscape will be smaller, more efficient and will network of troubled family “trouble-shooters”, who cost less, offering better value for money to the public. will be appointed by local authorities. They will oversee Our reforms will also help to realise a power shift away the work undertaken in their area, such as ensuring from Whitehall, placing control of the delivery of public families are getting appropriate support, and deploying services in the hands of people who use them, and sanctions where necessary. contributing to important reforms in health, education This small group of families—representing less than and economic growth. Unlike previous attempts to 1% of the population—have a huge impact on the reform the public bodies landscape, our reforms will well-being of those around them, and cost the public ensure that public bodies will no longer operate long purse an inordinate amount of money: an estimated after their job is complete or continue in a form that is £9 billion per year, of which £8 billion is taken up outdated or inefficient. I believe that these reforms will merely in reacting to problems as they arise. This is not lead to a permanent, and long overdue, shift in the role a cost that we can afford to bear any longer—either of public bodies and much clearer lines of accountability. financially or in wasted lives. 111WS Written Ministerial Statements15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 112WS

I am delighted to confirm the coalition’s commitment The Council adopted conclusions on the protection to this vital programme. I will report to the Prime of children in the digital world. The conclusions underline Minister and Deputy Prime Minister regularly on the the need to educate children as well as their parents and progress of Ms Casey’s team and our local partners. teachers about how to be safe online. Furthermore, the conclusions also call upon the audio-visual industry to design their services and products so that the protection of minors is fully taken into account. These conclusions CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT were adopted without further discussion. The Council adopted conclusions on cultural and Education, Youth, Culture and Sport Council creative competences and their role in building intellectual capital of Europe. The UK supported the adoption of these conclusions which address the development of The Minister for Sport and the Olympics (Hugh synergies between culture and creativity on the one Robertson): A meeting of the Education, Youth,Culture hand, and education, youth, research, business and and Sport Council was held on 28-29 November. The innovation on the other. UK was represented by the Deputy Permanent There was a ministerial debate on the contribution of Representative to the EU, Andy Lebrecht, for the culture the cultural and creative sectors to growth and job and audio-visual section of the Council. The Scottish creation, focusing in particular on the need for reliable Minister for Commonwealth Games and Sport, Shona and comparable statistics at European level to better Robison MSP, represented the UK for the sport section. inform policy making. There was universal acceptance Culture and Audio-visual Section of culture’s link to economic growth, as well as the The Council adopted a decision on the signing of the strong need for data in this area. The UK outlined the convention on the legal protection of services based on, importance of these sectors to our economy, including or consisting of, conditional access. This convention is exports, and noted that this is an area where Europe has an instrument of the Council of Europe which entered a clear comparative advantage. A number of delegations into force in 2003 and its regulatory framework is recalled that as well as economic growth, culture also almost identical to the one set out in Council directive has a vital role to play in developing social cohesion. A 98/84/EC. number of member states observed that this work could make a key contribution to the EU 2020 strategy. While The aim of the two legal instruments is to establish there was widespread support for the Commission’s legal protection against piracy of technological systems approach to improving data measurement, member states of pay-TV, video-on-demand, etc. They cover both TV stressed that this should be done in a light-touch way by and radio broadcasting services and also transmission building as far as possible on existing data and mechanisms. by internet. After the signature of the convention, the Council will proceed with the proposal for a decision on Under Any Other Business, the presidency provided concluding the convention, which will be sent to the information on the state of play concerning the procedural European Parliament with the request for its consent. arrangements for the appointment of the European panel for the European Union action for the European Ministers considered that the ratification of the Heritage Label (EEL). The panel will consist of 13 experts, convention by the EU will contribute to raising its responsible for selecting sites to be awarded the EHL profile, encouraging ratification by other countries (only and for their subsequent monitoring. Four of them are nine countries have so far ratified it, four of which are to be appointed by the Council for a three-year period. EU members), and thus extending the legal protection The Commission presented its recommendation on the for paid services beyond the borders of the EU. A digitisation and online accessibility of cultural material number of UK TV content providers have stressed the and digital preservation. The Commission also presented importance of being able to extend the number of its proposal for the creative Europe programme which is countries which co-operate to enforce the legislation on a new support programme for the cultural and creative conditional access and thereby to limit piracy in the sectors, bringing together the current culture, MEDIA pay-TV sector. The signing of the convention should and MEDIA Mundus programmes. The Danish delegation support the growth of this important part of the UK outlined their priorities for their forthcoming presidency, digital economy. in particular examining the new creative Europe programme, The Commission entered two statements to the Council developing the cultural dialogue with third countries minutes, one regarding the legal base and EU exclusive and promoting digitisation. competence to accede to the convention and another Sports Section concerning the final clauses of the convention, in particular The Council adopted a resolution on the representation the voting of amendments and the acceptance of new of the EU member states in the foundation board of the contracting parties. World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) and the co-ordination The UK supported the adoption of this Council of the EU and its member states’ positions prior to decision but intervened to table a statement at the WADA meetings. The resolution establishes the practical Council to record its view that, even in the absence of arrangements concerning the participation of the European the citation of a legal base in treaty on the functioning Union and its member states in the work of WADA, of the European Union (TFEU) Title V, the European namely the preparation, negotiation and adoption inter Union’s competence to enter into the JHA obligations, alia of rules, standards and guidelines by the agency. which form a small part of the convention, derives from The UK’s concerns over the wording around the TFEU Title V and accordingly the UK will be bound co-ordination process and the presentation of the EU by virtue of the fact that it has exercised its opt-in under position on anti-doping matters were taken into account Protocol No. 21 to the treaty on European Union during the negotiation of the text and the UK was (TEU). therefore able to support the adoption of the resolution. 113WS Written Ministerial Statements15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 114WS

The Council adopted conclusions on the role of accountability and efficiency.It will evidence the continuing voluntary activities in sport in promoting active citizenship. need for its functions and examine and evaluate alternative The UK supported the adoption of these conclusions delivery options. which seek to raise awareness of the value and importance The review will clarify the RCEWA’s responsibility of volunteering and improve conditions for the development for advising Ministers and will also clarify the roles and of voluntary activities in sport. mechanisms for openness, transparency and accountability. The Council adopted conclusions on combating match I will inform the House of the outcome of the review. fixing, aiming to foster close co-operation and information sharing between member states, the Commission, the Treasure Valuation Committee sports world and gambling operators in order to counteract this dangerous trend. The UK supported these Council conclusions which recognise that match fixing is a threat The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, to the very integrity of sport. Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): As part of the Government’s commitment to conduct triennial The Council held a policy debate on good governance reviews of their non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs), in sport. Autonomy, transparency and responsibility I am pleased to announce today the review of Treasure were cited as key elements of good governance, though Valuation Committee. several member states noted that autonomy should not mean that sports organisations are exempt from law. A The Treasure Valuation Committee provides the very number of member states welcomed the contribution important advisory role of recommending to the Secretary that the sub-programme for sport, in the Commission of State valuations for the treasure items brought before proposal for the “Erasmus for all” programme, will it and providing advice on the apportionment of any make to tackling match fixing and other threats to reward for the treasure item. sport. The UK welcomed the work on good governance The triennial review will build on work undertaken and the upcoming expert group which it will co-chair by the Department during the review of public bodies, but stressed that good governance should not be dictated as part of the spending review and will collate and by Government. publish the evidence for the continuing need of the Treasure Valuation Committee as an advisory NDPB. Under Any Other Business, the Commission presented its proposal for the Erasmus for all programme, the new The review of the Treasure Valuation Committee will EU programme for education, training, youth and sport be conducted by the Department with the support of a for the period 2014-2020. The UK presented a short review group made up of key stakeholders with a direct promotional film on the London 2012 Olympic and interest in the treasure valuation process. It will assess Paralympic games. The Danish delegation presented its effectiveness, accountability and efficiency. It will the incoming presidency’s priorities which include examining evidence the continuing need for individual functions the sport section of the Erasmus for all programme, and examine and evaluate a range of delivery options. combating doping and match fixing, developing good The review will clarify the Treasure Valuation governance issues and enhancing voluntary activities. Committee’s responsibility advising Ministers and will also clarify the roles and mechanisms for openness, transparency and accountability. Export of Works of Art and Objects of Cultural I shall inform the House of the outcome of the Interest review.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, DEFENCE Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): As part of the Government’s commitment to conduct triennial Cyprus reviews of their non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs), I am pleased to announce today the review of the The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Hammond): Reviewing Committee on the Export of Works of Art In a written statement on 24 May 2011, Official Report, and Objects of Cultural Interest. columns 49-50WS, my predecessor, the right hon. Member The Reviewing Committee (RCEWA) performs the for North Somerset (Dr Fox), informed the House that, very important role of advising on the principles which further to the strategic defence and security review, a should govern the control of export of objects of cultural separate review of the British sovereign base areas in interest under the Export Control Act 2002 and on the Cyprus would be undertaken. operation of the export control system generally and The study has been completed. The Government advises the Secretary of State on all cases where refusal accept its recommendations and confirms Her Majesty’s of an export licence for an object of cultural interest is Government’s enduring commitment to the sovereign suggested on grounds of national importance. base areas in Cyprus. The key considerations in affirming The triennial review will build on work undertaken this commitment were: by the Department during the review of public bodies, The sovereign base areas are in a region of geo-political as part of the spending review and will collate and importance and high priority for the United Kingdom’s publish the evidence for the continuing need of the long-term national security interests. Reviewing Committee as an advisory NDPB. The sovereign base areas provide an adaptable and capable forward mounting base, the utility of which has been amply The review of the RCEWA will be conducted by the demonstrated: for example, the basing of RAF aircraft that Department with the support of a small review group participated in operations over Libya; the regular deployment made up of key stakeholders with a direct interest in the of Cyprus-based military personnel to Afghanistan; and the export licensing process. It will assess its effectiveness, key role played as a logistic hub for operations in Afghanistan. 115WS Written Ministerial Statements15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 116WS

In addition, the sovereign base areas are expected to make a draw-down by 2014 as previously announced. This work significant contribution to logistic draw-down from Afghanistan, is expected to complete in 2012 and I will report the as well as to wider humanitarian and conflict prevention outcome to Parliament at that time. activities in the region. They also continue to provide excellent training opportunities in this important region. Service and civilian personnel at RAF Scampton will The strategic defence and security review 2010 be briefed on the progress of this work; we will also emphasised the fundamental importance of an “ability engage with the trade union. to remain adaptable for the future”. The sovereign base areas provide the United Kingdom with a unique contribution to our ability to achieve this goal. London 2012 Olympics Our military personnel, United Kingdom civilians and locally employed personnel in the sovereign base areas make a major contribution to the national security The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Hammond): of the United Kingdom and will continue to do so in The Government have agreed that the Ministry of Defence the future. In administering the sovereign base areas, (MOD) will support the Home Office and the Department the United Kingdom will continue to have as its main for Culture, Media and Sport by making a significant objectives—the effective use of the areas as military contribution to the security and safety of the London bases, maintenance of a constructive and co-operative 2012 Olympic and Paralympics games. The safety and relationship with the Government of the Republic of security operation for the games remains police-led. Cyprus, and protection of the interests of those resident Work continues on the precise details and numbers of or working in the areas. the defence contribution. However, the MOD now expects to provide up to 13,500 service personnel in London, on the Thames, in Weymouth and across the UK, delivering a range of military support to the police and other civil RAF Scampton and Olympic authorities. The MOD has been working very closely with the The Minister for the Armed Forces (Nick Harvey): I Metropolitan and Dorset police forces to scope the wish to inform the House of the latest position regarding provision of specialist support to maritime security the future basing requirements for the RAF acrobatic operations on the Thames and in Weymouth bay. It is team (RAFAT) known as the Red Arrows and of the currently planned for HMS Ocean to be based at Greenwich RAF’s air surveillance and control system (ASACS) and HMS Bulwark in Weymouth bay, providing maritime units. command and control, accommodation, helicopter and small boat basing, and logistics supply. The previous Administration announced on 21 May 2008, Official Report, columns 23-24WS, that subject to We have been building on our existing arrangements trade union consultation, the RAFAT would in future to ensure that there will be an appropriate and scalable operate from RAF Waddington, rather than RAF air security plan. A multi-layered plan has been developed Scampton by 31 July 2011, although they would continue and will include Typhoon aircraft, forward-based at to use the dedicated airspace above RAF Scampton to RAF Northolt, helicopters operating from HMS Ocean enable training for their acrobatic displays. and appropriate ground based air defence systems. The previous Administration announced on 28 October The MOD will increase the normal capacity of the 2008, Official Report, columns 25-26WS, the relocation armed forces in several specialist areas which are routinely of two air surveillance and control system satellite provided to the civil authorities, in order to provide an units. Number 1 Air Control Centre at RAF Kirton-in- enhanced level of capability and response, including Lindsey and the Control and Reporting Centre at RAF explosive ordnance disposal, military working dogs and Scampton, to RAF Coningsby by the end of 2014. the capability to search vehicles and buildings. The strategic defence and security review (SDSR) In addition to this support to wider security activity, considered a range of constraints on defence basing the armed forces will provide 3,500 personnel to support plans—the available estate, funding provision, plans the venue security operation for the Olympic and Paralympic already in train and the operational commitments of games, rising to 7,500 for the 17-day period of the forces. In the light of the changes resulting from the Olympic games themselves. They will form part of a SDSR, and against the background of the budgetary total venue guard-force of up to 23,700. pressures defence faces, I have concluded that it makes A further 1,000 strong military contingency force will sense to review the planned moves of the RAFAT and be available to respond to Olympic-related civil emergencies. the control and reporting centre. In the meantime both Military personnel will also provide command and units remain at RAF Scampton. control and logistics support for the range of military No 1 Air Control Centre has now merged and collocated capabilities involved. with the Control and Reporting Centre at RAF Scampton In providing this support. Defence will contribute up and RAF Kirton-in-Lindsey will be closed by the end to 13,500 military personnel at times of peak demand. of March 2012, other than some service families These numbers will be in addition to the ceremonial accommodation and a combined mess for personnel at role which the armed forces will play during the Olympics, RAF Scampton. which will showcase our armed forces to the world. I am The RAF will now consider future basing options for also pleased to note that a number of service personnel both the RAFAT and the ASACS units and make hope to compete on behalf of our nation. recommendations on options to deliver operational This defence contribution is on a similar scale to that effectiveness and value for money. This will include deployed at other recent Olympic games and will contribute recommendations on whether RAF Scampton should to ensuring a safe, secure and enjoyable 2012 Olympics. 117WS Written Ministerial Statements15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 118WS

Defence will continue to be able to support current and RATES RATES contingent operations during the games and my priority will remain the troops we have deployed on operations, (Weekly rates unless otherwise shown) 2011 2012 including in Afghanistan, before, during and after the specified minor injury (max.) 7,584.00 7,978.00 Olympics. 1 - 5% gratuity 2,535.00 2,667.00 6 - 14%i gratuity 5,638.00 5,931.00 Veterans Advisory and Pensions Committees Review 15-19% gratuity 9,860.00 10,373.00

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence SUPPLEMENTARY ALLOWANCES (Mr Andrew Robathan): The Ministry of Defence has concluded a review of the advisory bodies, the Veterans Unemployability allowance Advisory and Pensions Committees (formally established under a statutory instrument as the War Pensions Personal 98.55 103.65 Committees). This is in accordance with the Cabinet adult dependency increase 54.75 57.60 Office’s recent guidance on public bodies, which took increase for first child 12.75 13.40 effect from 1 April 2011. This review examined the increase for subsequent children 14.95 15.75 Committees’ functions, as well as corporate governance procedures. The review concluded that the non- Invalidity allowance departmental public body model is the best way for higher rate 19.55 20.55 them to deliver their functions, in a politically impartial middle rate 12.60 13.30 way, in pursuing the interests of those who have served lower rate 6.30 6.65 in the armed forces and their dependants. The 13 Veterans Advisory and Pensions Committees, Constant attendance allowance covering Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and the English regions, provide vital work by developing exceptional rate 120.40 126.60 relationships and agreements with regional organisations intermediate rate 90.30 94.95 to enhance the services delivered to ex-service personnel full day rate 60.20 63.30 and their families, in particular those who are vulnerable. Part-day rate 30.10 31.65 They also provide independent advice to both central and local government, health authorities and service Comforts allowance providers in local communities. They give local support higher rate 25.90 27.20 in promoting the armed forces’ covenant and have lower rate 12.95 13.60 actively been involved in the development of local community covenants. Mobility supplement 57.40 60.40 War Pensions Scheme Uprating 2012 Allowance for lowered standard of 60.12 63.24 occupation (maximum) The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan): The new rates of war pensions Therapeutic earnings limit (annual 4,940.00 5,070.00 and allowances proposed from April 2012 are set out in rate) the following tables. The annual uprating of war pensions and allowances for 2012 will take place from the week Exceptionally severe disablement 60.20 63.30 beginning 9 April 2012. Rates for 2012 are increasing by allowance 5.2% in line with the September 2011 consumer prices index. Severe disablement occupational 30.10 31.65 RATES RATES allowance (Weekly rates unless otherwise shown) 2011 2012 Clothing allowance (£ per annum) 205.00 216.00

WAR PENSIONS Education allowance (£ per annum) 120.00 120.00 (max) Disablement Pension (100% rates) officer (£ per annum) 8,323.00 8,756.00 WIDOW(ER)S BENEFITS other ranks (weekly amount) 159.50 167.80

Widow(er)s’-other ranks (basic with 120.95 127.25 Age allowances payable from age 65 children) (weekly amount) 40%-50% 10.70 11.25 Widow(er)-Officer (basic with children) 6,432.00 6,766.00 over 50% but not over 70% 16.40 17.25 (£ per annum) over 70% but not over 90% 23.35 24.55 Childless widow(er)s’ u-40 (other 28.97 30.48 over 90% 32.80 34.50 ranks) (weekly amount) (Officer highest rate both wars) (£ per 2,234.00 2,350.00 annum) Disablement gratuity (one-off payment) specified minor injury (min.) 1,016.00 1,069.00 Supplementary Pension 80.91 85.12 119WS Written Ministerial Statements15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 120WS

(Chris Grayling) and my hon. Friend the Minister for RATES RATES Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning and I (Weekly rates unless otherwise shown) 2011 2012 have worked together to develop this strategy, recognising Age allowance the need for coherent policy approaches across education, training, skills and employment. This shared vision will (a) age 65 to 69 13.80 14.50 help ensure that all services align in the best possible (b) age 70 to 79 26.50 27.90 way to help every young person make progress towards (c) age 80 and over 39.30 41.35 adult life and successful careers.

Children’s allowance Increase for first child 18.95 19.95 Increase for subsequent children 21.25 22.35 ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE

Orphan’s pension Electricity Market Reforms Increase for first child 21.65 22.80 Increase for subsequent children 23.75 25.00 The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change Unmarried dependant living as spouse 118.60 124.90 (Chris Huhne): I am today publishing a technical update (max) to the electricity market reform White Paper “Planning our electric future: a white paper for secure, affordable 1 Rent allowance (maximum) 45.60 47.95 and low-carbon electricity” . The update complements the White Paper published in July 2011 and follows the release of the carbon plan on 1 December 2011, which Adult orphan’s pension (maximum) 92.90 97.75 set out the Government’s long-term plans for UK decarbonisation—making a transition to a low-carbon economy while maintaining energy security and minimising cost to consumers. Electricity market reform is a key EDUCATION tool for achieving this long-term carbon plan. Young People in Education, Training and Work While the current electricity market has served us well, we face a number of unprecedented challenges. Around a fifth of existing generating capacity will close The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education over the next decade and much of the replacement will (Tim Loughton): The Departments for Education, for be intermittent (such as wind) or inflexible (such as Work and Pensions and for Business, Innovation and nuclear) generation, threatening our security of supply. Skills are today publishing “Building Engagement, Building At the same time electricity demand could as much as Futures: Our Strategy to Maximise the Participation of double by 2050, driven by greater electrification of 16-24 Year Olds in Education, Training and Work”. transport, heating and industrial processes. This fulfils the commitment made in “Opening Doors, Our long-term vision for the market is one in which Breaking Barriers”, the Government’s social mobility low-carbon generation can compete fairly on cost. This strategy published in April by the Deputy Prime Minister. would mean a competitive, liquid market, cost-competitive Increasing the participation of 16 to 24-year-olds in technologies, and a credible carbon price. Electricity learning and work not only makes a lasting difference market reform is a set of arrangements to take us to their individual lives, but is central to our ambitions through this transition, addressing market failures to to improve social mobility and stimulate economic growth. help low-carbon technologies compete fairly and to “Building Engagement, Building Futures” sets out ensure a secure electricity supply. how our radical reforms to schools, vocational education, The electricity market reform White Paper set out key skills and welfare provision will all make a significant measures to encourage investment in new generating difference to young people’s opportunities and support. and non-generation capacity (such as demand-side response The Government recognise that in some areas we need and storage), reduce the impact on customer bills, and to go further, in particular to help the most vulnerable create a secure mix of electricity sources which meets young people, who are at risk of long-term disengagement. increased demand. This includes supporting the The strategy outlines our plans to support all young introduction of renewables, carbon capture and storage people to develop the skills, qualifications and experience (CCS) and nuclear to meet our low-carbon commitments. they need—to succeed in their careers and make a The White Paper marked the first stage of the reform positive contribution to our society and economy. It process, with a commitment to provide a technical sets out how we will ensure that young people are in the update around the turn of the year. Today I am publishing best possible position to realise the opportunities available that update, which completes the strategic framework, to them as the economy picks up. It builds on recent setting out: announcements that we will offer more apprenticeships Our view that the system operator, part of National Grid, for young people and provide additional support through best meets the criteria for delivering the feed-in tariff with the new youth contract, which includes at least 40,000 contracts for difference (FIT CfD) and the capacity mechanism; financial incentives for small businesses to take on a Our decision to legislate for a capacity mechanism, in the young apprentice. form of a capacity market; The Minister of State, Department for Work and Detail on work to enable investment decisions for early Pensions, the Minister with responsibility for employment, projects; and my right hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell The next steps for the electricity market Reform programme. 121WS Written Ministerial Statements15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 122WS

The institutional framework is crucial to ensuring We have made rapid progress and are now moving to that electricity market reform has a robust, credit-worthy a stage of detailed policy design. Government will delivery model to drive enhanced investment into low- continue to work closely with stakeholders through a carbon generation and ensure security of supply while collaborative process to develop the detailed design of seeking to minimise the cost to consumers. The technical the mechanisms during 2012. To assist this process and update outlines the institutional framework involving maintain transparency a further update on emissions Government setting policy and objectives, the system performance standards and feed in tariff with contracts operator administering the FIT CfD and CM, and for difference will be published early next year. We Ofgem regulating the market. It includes our rationale intend to legislate for electricity market reform in the for the system operator acting as the delivery organisation, second session of this Parliament, which begins in May its roles and responsibilities, relationship with Government; 2012. governance arrangements and principles for ensuring a 1 http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/legislation/white _papers/ credit-worthy structure for the FIT CfD and capacity emr_wp_2011/emr_wp_2011.aspx. mechanism contractual arrangements. This model best meets the criteria set out in the White Paper and builds on strong synergies between the system operator’s current role of system balancing and the delivery of the FIT ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS CfD and capacity mechanism. The provision of secure, reliable electricity for consumers is a key objective for Government. A capacity mechanism Agriculture and Fisheries Council (Agenda) provides an insurance policy against the risk of a capacity shortfall. Current estimates suggest that a problem could emerge in the medium term—although accurate forecasting The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and far ahead is difficult. That is why we need to put in place Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): The next Agriculture our insurance policy now; so we are covered against all and Fisheries Council is on Thursday 15 and Friday possibilities and can respond as and when we need to. 16 December, in Brussels. I shall represent the UK on agriculture matters on Thursday and the Under-Secretary Having considered the responses to our consultation of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my on possible models of capacity mechanism, and undertaken hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon) subsequent analysis on the relative merits of the different will be representing the United Kingdom on the fisheries options under consideration, the Government intend to items throughout the Council. Richard Lochhead MSP, legislate for the establishment of a capacity market. A Michelle O’Neill MLA and Alun Davies AM will also capacity market ensures sufficient reliable capacity is attend. available by providing incentives to invest in new capacity, There are three fisheries and three agriculture items including generation and non-generation approaches on the agenda. Discussions will take place on the following: such as demand-side response, or for existing capacity to remain operational. We recognise that non-generation TACs and fishing quotas for 2012—The annual December negotiation package of fishing opportunities in the Atlantic approaches could have advantages in terms of lower and North sea for 2012. costs and reduced impact on carbon emissions. As well as allowing demand-side response and storage to compete TACs and quotas for fishing in the Black sea in 2012—Similar negotiations for stocks in the Black sea. on a fair and equivalent basis to generating in the capacity market, we are also assessing whether the right European Maritime and Fisheries Fund—The Commission will present the funding part of the CFP reform package incentives are in place to support the efficient use of which provides for a new instrument to replace the EFF and electricity, and whether further action is needed. to integrate into it spending on the new EU integrated The technical update sets out our high-level decisions maritime policy. on the design of the capacity market. The detailed CAP reform rural development proposal—A public debate design of the mechanism will be developed with focusing on the rural development proposal. stakeholders’ engagement from next year. I am also GM approvals—Council vote on approvals for use as food publishing the capacity mechanism impact assessment and feed of four GM varieties (three maize and one cotton). today which outlines the full economic assessment of Agricultural products promotions policy—Consideration of the policy options for a capacity mechanism. Our modelling Council conclusions commenting on the green paper on indicates that the introduction of a capacity market promotion measures. should have a limited impact on average electricity bills There are currently five points notified under any and could lead to both a small reduction as a result of other business: avoiding very high prices in scarcity periods and less Commission presentation of a proposed regulation on sanctions volatile prices. against countries allowing non-sustainable fishing. The White Paper set out the Government’s commitment Cypriot item on aid for processed citrus fruit. to work actively with relevant parties to enable early Protection of animals during transport—Commission report investment decisions for low-carbon electricity generation on implementation of the animal transport rules. to progress to timetable wherever possible, including Codex Alimentarius—A presidency report back on the recent those required ahead of implementation of the FIT meeting of this UN body for international food standards. CfD. I would encourage developers who meet the Hungarian item on a technical aspect of the authorisation of characteristics outlined within the technical update to GM products. contact DECC to initiate discussions. We are also providing Finally, there is a ministerial lunch on Thursday further certainty for existing renewable generators by 15 December to discuss certain aspects of rural setting out in more detail the arrangements for renewables development, including promoting innovation and risk obligation certificates (ROCs) from 2027 onwards. management measures. 123WS Written Ministerial Statements15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 124WS

Independent Agricultural Appeals Panel and justice matters overseas. It will ensure greater consistency in the human rights approach to security and justice assistance overseas across HMG; it will The Minister of State, Department for Environment, assist in the identification and consideration of applicable Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): Areviewof legal obligations; and it will ensure that our security the independent agricultural appeals panel (IAAP) has and justice activities, whilst meeting HMG’s national been commissioned and will start work today. The security priority, are also consistent with a foreign policy IAAP is an advisory non-departmental public body, based on British values including human rights. sponsored by DEFRA, which provides advice to Ministers on appeals made by claimants under the single payment UK security and justice assistance to international scheme and other CAP schemes administrated by the partners to tackle threats such as terrorism, serious Rural Payments Agency (RPA). This triennial review is organised crime and conflict, and to support sustainable part of a rolling programme of reviews that DEFRA is development, remains crucial to implementing our foreign undertaking in line with Government’s commitment to policy and development priorities. As well as strengthening reducing the number and cost of public bodies and our relationships with other Governments and increasing ensuring accountability for public functions by examining our prospects for future cooperation with security all non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs) at least institutions, this type of work can have a direct impact once every three years. on our national interests. For example, the strategic The IAAP review is to be conducted in accord with defence and security review recommended that HMG Government guidance for reviewing non-departmental increase efforts to tackle the terrorist threat at source, public bodies, and will consider the effectiveness of how overseas. Our counter-terrorism programme aims to do the functions of IAAP are currently delivered, whether just this by increasing the capacity of overseas authorities, there is a need for the function and the advisory NDPB such as the police, military and intelligence, to detect, to continue, and if so, how the function might best be investigate and disrupt terrorist threats. delivered in future. The review will be led by a member At times, this will mean working with countries, for the DEFRA senior civil service who is not involved institutions or units where we have concerns about their with the day-to-day business of the IAAP or RPA. adherence to and respect for human rights and democracy. The review will compliment ongoing work by RPA to Often, it is these countries or institutions where security improve its complaints and appeals procedures. Key and justice assistance is most needed. While it is in our stakeholders are being informed of the review and national interest to continue to provide such assistance, invited to submit views. Further information, including in doing so we must ensure that such assistance supports how to participate in the review are available on DEFRA’s our values and is consistent with applicable domestic website http://www.defra.gov.uk/food-farm/farm-manage and international human rights obligations. /review-iaap. Today’s publication of the OSJA guidance is a reflection An announcement will be made about the outcome of our determination to ensure that when we provide of the review in due course. assistance in these countries, we do so in a manner that promotes, rather than undermines, human rights and democracy. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Making these decisions is not always straightforward. While UK justice and security assistance can help achieve Overseas Security and Justice Assistance Guidance both security and human rights objectives in a given country, it can also present a variety of human rights risks. The OSJA guidance was produced in order to The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth provide practical support to Government officials making Affairs (Mr William Hague): I would like to inform the these difficult decisions. It provides a clear framework House of the introduction of the Overseas Security and to help officials identify the human rights risks, propose Justice Assistance (OSJA) guidance. appropriate measures to mitigate these risks and produce On 13 October, I announced in a statement to the a final assessment. It also sets out when the decision to House the conclusions of the Government’s review of provide assistance should be taken by senior personnel policy and practice with regard to the export of equipment or Ministers. The guidance covers case specific assistance that might be used for internal repression, in light of such as the deployment of specialist police officers to events in the middle east and north Africa. I also assist with an investigation, as well as broader capacity announced that the Government had considered how building assistance. we could strengthen our decision making when we provide security and justice assistance overseas. I said The OSJA guidance already applies to the Foreign that guidance on assessing the human rights implications and Commonwealth Office and is currently being rolled of such assistance would be issued to all Government out to other Government Departments. An internal officials and that it would be published before the end review of the guidance will take place in April 2012. of 2011. A copy of the “Overseas Security and Justice The Government are committed to tackling issues Assistance Human Rights Guidance” has now been related to security and human rights in an open and deposited in the Library of the House. transparent way.This is why we published the Consolidated The guidance is part of a package of improvements Guidance to Intelligence Officers and Security Personnel that responds to the lessons of this year, and our on the Detention and Interviewing of Detainees Overseas, wider commitment to strengthen and uphold the record and on the Passing and Receipt of Intelligence Related of the United Kingdom as a defender and promoter of to Detainees. And it is why we have taken the decision human rights and democracy. This guidance will assist to publish the “Overseas Security and Justice Assistance HMG staff who are called upon to advise on security Guidance” today. 125WS Written Ministerial Statements15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 126WS

HEALTH to transfer its critical national functions and to establish a police professional body and a new IT company. I am Tobacco Control Legislation also, today, placing in the Library a summary of the responses that were received in relation to Peter Neyroud’s report, “Review of Police Leadership and Training”. The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): I am committed to a methodical and careful phase-out The Government will publish a consultation on the of the NPIA in 2012. Good progress is being made. The packaging of tobacco products in spring 2012. NPIA’s headcount has reduced by 25%. The NPIA has In March 2011 the Government published “Healthy announced its departure from its site at Harrogate. Lives, Healthy People: A Tobacco Control Plan for Some of NPIA’s procurement functions have already England”which set out how our comprehensive, evidence- transferred to the Home Office, and important detailed based programme of tobacco control will be delivered work has been done to identify successor bodies for the within the context of the new public health system over NPIA’s critical national functions and services that are the next five years. required to support an effective and modern police The tobacco control plan included a commitment to service. explore options to reduce the promotional impact of In response to the policing leadership challenge set tobacco packaging and to publish a consultation paper. out by Peter Neyroud’s review (which I placed in the The Government take very seriously the need to House Library in April 2011), I intend to create a new reduce the number of young people who take up smoking. police professional body. This is a unique opportunity Each year, in England alone, around 330,000 children to further professionalise policing, creating a body that under 16 first try smoking and the majority of smokers directly supports police officers at all ranks and civilian start smoking regularly before they are 18 years old. policing professionals. It will also create opportunities I am pleased to confirm that this consultation will be to open up the closed system of leadership within the carried out on a UK-wide basis. Ministers in Scotland, police service, to harness greater diversity and experience Wales and Northern Ireland are also eager to gain a at a senior level, and to equip the service with the skills better understanding of whether the plain packaging of it needs to deliver effective crime fighting in a changing, tobacco products could be effective in reducing the leaner and more accountable environment. number of young people who take up smoking and in Peter Neyroud, in his review, outlined a policing supporting adults who want to quit. Participating in professional body which held chartered status. This will this consultation will help them in making decisions be an issue for the professional body itself to pursue about how they wish to take forward this matter in their when it has developed a body of evidence demonstrating own Administrations. it reaches the rigorous criteria required. It is also important to create a supportive environment Whilst the police professional body will focus on for adults who want to quit smoking. Most smokers policing in England and Wales, it will be important that report that it takes many attempts before they succeed it takes into account, and works closely with, forces in in quitting. Removing sources of temptation that undermine Scotland and Northern Ireland, particularly on cross-border quit attempts can be of great help. issues. The Government want to make it easier for people to The police professional body will develop policing as make healthy choices. To do this, we need to understand a single profession; it will represent the entire service whether there is evidence to demonstrate that the plain and will act only in the public interest. Chief constables packaging of tobacco products would have an additional also need to come together for discussion, focusing on health benefit, over and above existing tobacco control key operational issues, when it is in the public interest initiatives. The Department of Health has, therefore, for them to do so. I envisage a need for a chiefs’ council, commissioned an independent academic review of the and I am working with ACPO and key partners to existing evidence relevant to the effects of tobacco consider the precise remit of the chiefs’ council and its packaging. This systematic evidence review will be peer relationship with the police professional body. reviewed and made available alongside the consultation. As announced in July, the Government also intend to Department of Health officials are also working with establish an information and communications technology colleagues across Government to explore the implications (ICT) company. The company will be responsible for and likely impacts of options for tobacco packaging. the procurement, implementation and management of This presents a complex series of issues and we will complex contracts for information technology, related need to take all the relevant factors into account. business change and outsourcing services, supplying In view of these requirements, the consultation will both national and local services for police. The company not be available prior to the new year. The consultation will be owned by police authorities and subsequently will be published in spring 2012 and I would encourage police and crime commissioners, with the police service all those with an interest to respond. as its customer. It will provide: better value to forces for their ICT spend; HOME DEPARTMENT greater innovation in police ICT, so that operational officers have better systems; National Policing Improvement Agency freedom for chief constables to focus on fighting crime rather than managing ICT; services and products that support forces and other customers The Secretary of State for the Home Department in their drive for inter-operability. (Mrs Theresa May): As part of the wider reform of We are discussing the key design elements of the new policing, I wish to update the House on plans to phase company with representatives of forces and authorities out the National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA), to ensure that it meets their needs first and foremost. 127WS Written Ministerial Statements15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 128WS

It will operate in such a way that forces can more We are also exploring how we can reduce the level of quickly, easily and efficiently collaborate and procure “aged debt” on the Government’s books—including IT solutions which meet local requirements. fines, compensation and costs orders which have been Turning to plans for other NPIA functions, not in imposed but have yet to be successfully collected after a scope for either the police professional body or the ICT minimum of 12 months. In some cases, these date back company, I intend to: a number of years—some as far as the early 1990s. We transfer key national critical operational functions to the are piloting new approaches with three commercial National Crime Agency (NCA), which naturally fit with its suppliers to establish the collectability of financial penalties new national crime fighting remit. Those areas already identified over a year old, testing a combination of techniques include the Central Witness Bureau, Crime Operational and innovation and providing evidence on which to Support, the National Missing Persons Bureau, the Serious develop a strategy to manage this debt in the future. Crime Analysis team, and the Specialist Operations centre. The statement shows that in 2010-11 over £497 million In the short term, these important functions will move to the Serious Organised Crime Agency, one of the major precursor of cash was collected by HMCTS—an increase of bodies to the NCA; £25 million on the previous year. The overall total transfer responsibility for the 101 non-emergency phone of outstanding impositions increased from £1.5 billion service, crime mapping, pathology services, forensic and to £1.9 billion. The principal driver for this has been an other non-ICT procurement and the programme for increase in the use of confiscation orders, which have implementing Schengen Information System (II) (SIS II), to been more aggressively imposed in the Crown Court the Home Office. These moves follow the non-ICT procurement over the last year to deprive criminals of assets—their transfers that were completed in October 2011; use by the courts in 2010-11 rose by 158%, and accounts hand over, to a lead force, the hosting of the new National for £1.2 billion of the total. In some cases, such as joint Police Air Service; criminal enterprise, two separate orders can be issued end the work NPIA currently does advising on value for for the total sum—in one case two individuals are money by November 2012. In its place, police and crime separately liable for the same sum of £92 million, a total commissioners will drive value for money in the police service, with further support where necessary. order of £184 million. All other NPIA functions are the subject of further The Ministry of Justice is responsible for the direct detailed analysis and consultation with the wider police collection of 16% of confiscation orders by value. Enforcing service. I expect to be able to make an announcement confiscation orders presents a challenge right across about the future of the NPIA’s estate in the spring of Government, as criminals use increasingly complex ways 2012. to mask or offshore their assets—it is estimated that over 60% of the total are “hidden” assets or held Of particular note will be reviews into the future overseas. All agencies involved in confiscation orders viability of Bramshill House and the utilisation of Hendon are committed to improving enforcement performance. Data Centre (HDC), which provides vital IT services at the very heart of policing. The HDC review will consider The Comptroller and Auditor General (C&AG) has how services should be delivered in the future, by whom, today published a report on the trust statement, and and any transitional arrangements that will be necessary provided a disclaimer with his certificate. This reflects to ensure public safety is protected. the fact that the IT systems used in the enforcement of impositions are live “case management” systems, rather than accounting systems: they are fully effective in reporting the value of money owed to ensure targeted JUSTICE enforcement, but cannot be used for retrospective reporting of individual transactions for audit. The IT system was Fines, Confiscation Orders and Fixed Penalties rolled out in 2007-8: the requirement to produce a trust statement first arose for 2010-11. We estimate that to implement a new accounting system for these purposes The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice would cost at least £3 million, and would not present (Mr Kenneth Clarke): Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals good value for public money. We are, however, taking Service (“HMCTS”) has prepared a trust statement steps to ensure that we are better able to evidence the providing an account of the collection of revenues robustness of the historical figures for audit purposes in which, by statute or convention, are due to be paid to future. HM Treasury. The statement includes the value of fines and confiscation orders imposed by the judiciary; fixed Public Bodies Reform penalties imposed by the police; the value of collections; the balances paid over to third-parties including victims of crime, the Home Office and HM Treasury; and the The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice balance of outstanding impositions. (Mr Kenneth Clarke): Today I have laid before Parliament Enforcement of all court impositions is a priority for a public consultation response document; “Response to this Government. The Ministry of Justice has been Consultation on reforms proposed in the Public Bodies working closely with the Home Office, Crown Prosecution Bill—Reforming the public bodies of the Ministry of Service, the Serious Organised Crime Agency and others Justice”. to improve enforcement through a range of current and The response confirms the Ministry of Justice’s intentions planned measures. These include “Operation Crackdown”, in relation to the Department’s bodies included in the a targeted blitz on persistent defaulters, telephone and Public Bodies Bill, which received Royal Assent yesterday. text chasing, action to increasing deduction of court Reform of these bodies through the powers provided in fines direct from salary and benefits, greater use of the Public Bodies Act 2011 will increase Government tracing tools like credit checks, and 24-hour telephone accountability, eliminate duplication of activity and and internet payment facilities. discontinue activities that no longer need to take place. 129WS Written Ministerial Statements15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 130WS

The response confirms the Government’s intention Hard copies of the final version of the combined to abolish the following bodies: the Administrative guide and charter booklet will be printed and distributed Justice and Tribunals Council; Courts Boards; the Crown to all coroner jurisdictions in early 2012. The guide and Court Rule Committee; HM Inspectorate of Courts the charter will then be updated as and when changes to Administration; the Magistrates’ Courts Rule Committee; the coroner system are introduced in the future. and the Public Guardian Board. The Department will The response paper is available online, at also use the powers in the Bill to merge four bodies or http://www.justice.gov.uk/consultations/closed-with- offices to create The National Archives as a legal entity response.htm. to reflect current administrative arrangements. These bodies and offices are: the Public Record Office, HM Stationery Office, The Keeper of Public Records and TRANSPORT the Advisory Council on Public Records. I have decided that the Government should not pursue EU Transport Council the abolition of the Youth Justice Board (YJB) and that the office of the chief coroner should be established but without the bespoke appeals system that would have The Secretary of State for Transport (Justine Greening): been attached to that office. Amendments to that effect I attended the second Transport Council of the Polish were made to the Public Bodies Bill on 23 November presidency in Brussels on 12 December. during Lords Consideration of Commons Amendments. The Council reached political agreement on a proposal The Government continue to believe that there is a for a directive of the European Parliament and of the need for reform of youth justice in order to increase Council establishing a single European railway area direct ministerial accountability for this important and (Recast). At its First Reading of the proposal on distinct area of the justice system. The Ministry of 16 November the European Parliament made amendments Justice will shortly bring forward new proposals for which differed significantly from the Council’s general youth justice reform. The Department will also announce approach adopted at the June Transport Council. However, in the new year further details of the timetable for the the political agreement text only incorporates those implementation of the office of the chief coroner. amendments that do not alter the general approach, Orders that give effect to the decisions set out in the and are acceptable to the UK. The Commission hopes a response paper will be laid from early in 2012. As Second Reading deal can be struck with the European provided for in the Public Bodies Act 2011, all such Parliament under the Danish presidency. orders will be subject to the enhanced affirmative The Council agreed a partial general approach on a parliamentary procedure. draft regulation amending Regulation 3821/85 on recording equipment in road transport. This proposal would amend Coroner Services (Charter) the specification for tachographs, which measure hours spent at the wheel by commercial lorry and bus drivers. The Council also agreed a general approach on: The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice a proposal for a directive of the European Parliament and of (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): The Government are today the Council amending Directive 2008/106/EC of the European publishing their response to the consultation on the Parliament and of the Council on the minimum level of charter for current coroner services. training of seafarers to bring the extant directive into line The charter will help those who come into contact with the latest International Maritime Organization rules; with coroner services in England and Wales by for the and first time setting out the standards that bereaved family a proposal for a regulation of the European Parliament and members and others can expect to receive. It also sets of the Council on the accelerated phasing-in of double-hull or equivalent design requirements for single-hull oil tankers out what someone can do if they are unhappy with the (Recast). The amendments reflect changes to the international level of service provided. regime for tankers adopted at the International Maritime The charter forms an integral part of the Government’s Organization between 2002 and 2009. plans for reform of the coroner system, and, alongside The Council noted a progress report on a proposal the appointment of a chief coroner and implementation for a regulation of the European Parliament and of the of most of the provisions in part 1 of the Coroners and Council on Union guidelines for the development of Justice Act 2009, will help to ensure much more consistent the trans-European transport network. This item generated standards of service between coroner areas. substantial discussion. I intervened to acknowledge the The charter consultation closed on 5 September 2011. importance of good cross-border infrastructure for the A total of 135 responses were received from a range of single market, but expressed concern about binding stakeholders including coroners, local authorities, voluntary obligations proposed and the financial and administrative organisations, medical professionals and members of burdens they would place on member states at a time the public. Our response document summarises the when fiscal constraints are substantial and also stressed views of respondents, and shows where we will subsequently the need for member states to retain their responsibility make revisions to the charter. for planning decisions, processes and implementation. Overall, there was support for the charter to be On the proposed increase to the TEN-T budget, I said published, as proposed, alongside the Ministry of Justice’s budgetary restraint must be the priority. current “Guide to Coroners and Inquests”. This combined Under Any Other Business, the Commission presented document will ensure that people can easily access one its new proposals on a “better airport package” which document setting out first the processes in a coroner covers a recast of the slot allocation regulation, and inquiry (the guide) and secondly the standards that can revisions to the current directives on ground handling be expected throughout (the charter). and noise which are intended to address issues of capacity, 131WS Written Ministerial Statements15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 132WS growth, environmental concerns and competitiveness. Red Tape Challenge (Reform of Road Transport The proposals on ground handling and noise have been Regulations) recast as (directly applicable) regulations. The Commission reported on the European aviation The Secretary of State for Transport (Justine Greening): safety management system and air cargo security action In May, my Department launched the road transportation plan. I intervened in strong support of the European theme of the red tape challenge—part of the Cabinet aviation safety management system and to request that Office’s project to review all of the outstanding regulations the Commission report back on progress at a future currently on the statute book. Following a detailed Transport Council. process of challenge, stakeholder discussion and public The Commission, at the request of Finland, reported feedback, I am now pleased to announce the results. on the current state of play with regards to the aviation Within the road transport red tape challenge, my EU emissions trading system (ETS). There had been Department put forward every secondary regulation three main developments since the June Transport Council: relating to road transportation for public discussion—415 the US House of Representatives had approved a Bill in total. Some 376 of these are judged still to be live, that would prohibit US airlines from complying with and of these I propose to scrap, merge, simplify, amend ETS; there had been political messages against ETS or improve 142—well over a third. The detailed breakdown emerging from the ICAO Council in November; and I propose is: President Obama had specifically raised the issue at the EU/US summit on 28 November, noting the need to Keep as is Improve Scrap Moved 1 avoid confrontation. The Commission’s assessment was that while international opposition was strong, so was Number 226 84 58 8 the EU response. The Commission acknowledged there Percentage 60.1% 22.3% 15.4% 2.1% still could be a challenge in ICAO under the Chicago Number 180 75 54 8 convention, and that it was important to understand non-EU what forms retaliatory action could take. Following a % non-EU 55.9% 23.6% 18.0% 2.5% legal challenge from the US Air Transport Association 1 Moved regulations will be finalised under a different section of the and three US airlines the European Court of Justice red tape challenge. will deliver its judgment on the case on 21 December. Among the measures we are pursuing, we will be: Antonio Tajani, Commissioner responsible for industry Scrapping the regulation requiring motorists to hold a paper and entrepreneurship, updated Ministers on recent counterpart to their driving licence by 2015—saving drivers developments within the Galileo programme and indicated up to £8 million; that since the successful launch of the first two satellites Improving the regulation surrounding the notification process in October the system was now up and running with for vehicles that are not in use on the road (Statutory Off real momentum behind it. The Commission also presented Road Notification or SORN). Once drivers have notified the its proposed regulation on Galileo governance and DVLA that their vehicle is SORN, they will no longer have the burden of annual SORN renewal; exploitation. Only issuing hard-copies of V5C vehicle registration certificates Before the Council, I met Ministers from Finland for fleet operators when needed (with the potential to offer and Ireland, the German State Secretary, and the Northern the same to private motorists); Irish Transport Minister to discuss items on the Transport Introducing a limited exemption from drivers’ hours rules so Council agenda, in particular TEN-T. In a separate that those who also drive as Territorial Army reservists in discussion after Transport Council, I exchanged views their own time can continue to do so. on TEN-T and better regulation with the Siim Kallas, The Challenge has also considered various administrative the Transport Commissioner. measures that are not based in legislation and has The UK did not participate in the vote on one item examined pieces of primary legislation that can be on the A point list, namely article 81 based Council amended or simplified. decision authorising the EU to accede to the 2002 Other proposals include: protocol to the Athens convention relating to the carriage Removing the need for an insurance certificate. The Department of passengers and their luggage by sea. The UK has, for Transport will work with the insurance industry on however, subsequently notified its intention to opt in to removing the need for motorists to have to hold an insurance the Council decision. certificate. Abolishing the requirement for drivers to prove they have The Danish delegation presented the work programme insurance when applying for tax, meaning 600,000 more of their forthcoming presidency of the EU. The incoming people will be able to tax their car online. This has been Danish presidency’s overarching aim in the transport made possible by new checks of existing databases for insurance sector will be “green growth” and they will take forward under new continuous work on current Council dossiers. For example, they insurance enforcement rules. (The DVLA’s records are now will be seeking to reach a Second Reading agreement compared regularly with the motor insurance database (MID) with the European Parliament on the recast of the first to identify registered keepers of vehicles that appear to have railway package. They will also commence work on no insurance). proposals included in the recently published Commission We will look at experience in other countries on driver work programme, such as the airport package and the certificates of professional competence (CPC)—the qualification for professional bus, coach and lorry drivers. In particular, proposals on driving licences and the satellite navigation to see if we could remove the need for some sectors, such as programmes, as well as on an expected proposal on farmers who drive stock to market, from needing a CPC. enforcement of the maritime labour convention. Their Local authorities will now have to ensure business interests main priorities are the TEN-T guidelines and the airport are properly considered as part of any future proposed package, especially ground handling and noise reduction workplace parking levy scheme. They must show they have proposals. properly and effectively consulted local businesses, have 133WS Written Ministerial Statements15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 134WS

addressed any proper concerns raised and secured support First, we are publishing “Meeting future workplace from the local business community. pensions challenges: improving transfers and dealing Abolishing the regulations on the treatment of lost property with small pots” (Cm 8184). This paper sets out actions on buses. Bus companies currently have to wait 48 hours that the Government are taking to make sure people get before they can throw away perishable items left on the bus. the most out of the money they save: The full list of 376 regulations, explaining what actions we are taking on each, is available on my Department’s We will abolish short service refunds for defined website at contribution occupational schemes. These rules jeopardise http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/gov-20110520. pension savings for low to median earners and will not Overall, this represents an ambitious programme of be part of the automatic enrolment world. We expect deregulation, some elements of which will represent a this rule change to happen as soon as 2014, provided we major shift in the way my Department does business. I are able to implement an accompanying solution for am pleased with the results of this section of the red small pot transfers at the same time. A full impact tape challenge and the deregulatory mindset it has assessment is being published alongside the paper to helped foster. I look forward to similar outcomes from take account of this change. the ongoing rail and maritime theme and next year’s Abolishing short service refunds will create more examination of aviation red tape. small pension pots for defined contribution (DC) occupational schemes, but this is part of a much wider WORK AND PENSIONS problem. We anticipate that automatic enrolment and a highly mobile jobs market will lead to around 4.7 million European Social Fund Support for Troubled Families additional small pension pots in our pension system by 2050. The burden of these small pots is compounded by the fact that systemic barriers, like cost and complexity, The Minister of State, Department for Work and prevent people from moving and consolidating their Pensions (Chris Grayling): I am pleased to announce pensions into one place. today that the Government have put in place additional support in England for troubled families and where So our paper seeks views and evidence from stakeholders either no one is working or there is a history of worklessness on how we can reduce the number of small pots and across generations. improve transfers. We discuss possible solutions: ranging This support, which is funded through money received from minimal changes to the current system to an by DWP in England from the European social fund, automatic transfer system where pension pots can be will offer these families the opportunity to engage in collected in one or more “aggregator” schemes or could work related activities, address issues which are preventing follow people from job to job. We welcome feedback on them from working and enhance their chances of returning these possible approaches. to the labour market either directly or through the Alongside this paper we are also publishing a consultation Work programme. This supports the wider cross- on the 2012-13 review and revision of the automatic Government agenda on troubled families led by Louise enrolment thresholds. This consultation invites contributions Casey, to help turn around the lives of such families. to inform how we take this review forward for the first The provision will be employment focused and tackle year of automatic enrolment live running. It is important barriers which prevent individual family members from that we get this review right—so that we target the returning to the labour market. The provider will take a correct group for automatic enrolment while carefully whole family approach with support being tailored to weighing the cost to business and the impact on the meet individual needs. Local authorities in England pension industry. have a key role identifying families who are ready for I would like to thank the pensions community for this specific support and have been working with the their input to this work so far. This collaboration needs DWP providers to enable this to happen. This joint to continue if we are to make automatic enrolment a working and engagement will be ongoing. success. Workplace Pension Reform Copies of the paper will be available in the Vote office and Printed Paper office later today. The Minister of State, Department for Work and Copies of the consultation document and the impact Pensions (Steve Webb): I am pleased to announce that assessment will be placed in the library. today we have achieved key milestones that will help These publications will be available later today on the secure a robust, efficient workplace pensions system for Department’s website: http://www.dwp.gov.uk/ the 21st century. consultations/2011/ 831W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 832W

2011. This includes details of the first locations that Written Answers to Ofcom expects to invite applications for local TV licences and confirms the legislative proposals. Questions It is expected that Cardiff and Swansea will be licensed in the first tranche, followed by Bangor and Mold subsequently. Thursday 15 December 2011 Olympic Games 2012: National Lottery

Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what estimate he has made of the extra lottery funding that will become Live Music Industry available for good causes after the London 2012 Olympics; and if he will make a statement. [86886] 8. Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what steps he is John Penrose: After the transfers to the Olympics taking to support the live music industry. [86791] have been taken into account, income for the good causes in the current financial year is estimated to be John Penrose: The Government are supporting the £1,349 million, based on our most recent September live music industry through delivering their commitment projections. Income in the 2013-14 financial year, when to free live performances from unnecessary red tape. the Olympic transfers will have finished, is estimated to We are supporting the Live Music Bill which I hope, be £1,749 million. with the continued support of the Benches opposite, will successfully complete its remaining stages in the Olympic Games 2012: Plastic Bags new year. In addition, I am starting to consider responses to Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for our consultation on proposals for wider deregulation of Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport whether the music and other cultural activities from the requirements organisers of the London 2012 Olympics have any of the Licensing Act 2003. plans to discourage usage of plastic carrier bags at the Games. [86496] Secondary Ticketing Market Hugh Robertson: The London 2012 Organising 13. Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Committee (LOCOG) will not be providing single-use Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what recent or short-life disposable plastic bags to customers in its representations he has received on the regulation of the shops. High-quality recyclable bags will be provided, secondary ticketing market. [86799] but only on request, when they will be promoted as being reusable for multiple occasions. LOCOG is identifying Mr Jeremy Hunt: On 28 November I met the hon. the most sustainable solution and will announce this in Member and my hon. Friend the Member for Hove due course. (Mike Weatherley) with a delegation from the cultural LOCOG’s sponsors and suppliers will be required to industries and sport. I made clear at that meeting my adhere to the London 2012 Sustainable Sourcing Code view that industry solutions, particularly technical ones, as they develop their plans for any packaging, including should be exhausted before looking at regulatory ones. bags where appropriate.

Broadband: Mobile Phones Sports: Facilities

Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport when he expects Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what steps his to meet his target to extend (a) mobile telephone Department is taking to prevent the closure of coverage to 99 per cent. of the population and (b) community sports facilities as a result of reductions in superfast broadband to 90 per cent. of homes. [86803] local authority funding. [86800]

Mr Vaizey: It is expected that both targets will be met Hugh Robertson: Sport England is investing £135 million by 2015. of lottery funding through the ‘Places, People, Play’ programme, the majority of which will be invested in Local Broadcasting: Television facilities to deliver a tangible sporting legacy. It has also developed a range of support tools, including an online Hywel Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for toolkit for national governing bodies, local authorities Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport when he next and sports clubs to use the opportunity of community expects to make an announcement on provision of asset transfer to take control of sports facilities on a local television in Wales. [86201] sustainable basis. In addition, the Localism Bill includes provisions to Mr Vaizey: The Government’s response to the give community groups a great opportunity to bid to consultations on the Framework for Local TV consultation take over assets listed as Asset of Community Value, if and Pioneer Locations was published on 13 December they are made available for sale. 833W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 834W

Television: Licensing Anne Milton: The Department does not collect information on local HIV testing services and strategies. Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State It is the responsibility of local primary care trusts to for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport if he will ensure that sexual health services, including HIV prevention consider offering two licences in Northern Ireland at and testing, meet the particular needs of their local the initial stage as part of his plans for local television. population taking into account HIV prevalence and [86084] other health priorities. We are aware that in some areas of high HIV prevalence (including Brighton, Leicester and London) commissioners and practitioners have Mr Vaizey: On 13 December 2011, the Government already introduced wider HIV testing programmes to published details of the first locations that Ofcom expects reduce undiagnosed HIV. to invite applications for local TV licences. These are subject to further consultation; however it is expected that Belfast will be in the first tranche and Mental Health Services: Ex-servicemen Derry/Londonderry and Limavady subsequently. Laura Sandys: To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether his Department has any plans to extend the service provided by the 24-hour Combat HEALTH Stress Support Helpline. [86393]

Heart Diseases: Screening Mr Simon Burns: The Department committed £200,000 to run a one-year pilot of the 24-hour helpline. The Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for Department plans to carry out an evaluation of this Health (1) what discussions he has had with healthcare pilot, and, based on the outcome, to make a decision commissioners on the potential inclusion of pulse regarding the future of the service. checks in NHS health checks for the purposes of achieving early diagnosis of atrial fibrillation; [86540] Laura Sandys: To ask the Secretary of State for (a) (b) (2) what consideration he has given to the inclusion Health how many veterans and veterans’ of pulse checks as a compulsory part of NHS health families have accessed the 24-hour Combat Stress checks for the purposes of achieving early diagnosis of Support Helpline since it came into operation. [86394] atrial fibrillation. [86541] Mr Simon Burns: The 24-hour helpline for veterans launched in March 2011. Since then, the service has Mr Simon Burns: The UK National Screening received over 3,600 calls, from 1,397 different individuals. Committee provides advice on population screening 477 of these calls have been from families and carers of issues and it currently recommends against a population veterans. The service does not record the ’other’ callers based approach to early detection of atrial fibrillation, to the helpline (i.e. those who are neither veterans nor such as the inclusion of a pulse check in the NHS families of veterans). Health Check. There have been no discussions with commissioners about the inclusion of pulse checks in the NHS Health Check. NHS Trusts HIV Infection: Screening Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Health by what process (a) local authorities and (b) Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health hon. Members can seek to initiate a reconfiguration of (1) with reference to the National Institute for Health NHS trusts; and if he will make a statement. [86717] and Clinical Excellence guideline on increasing the uptake of HIV testing to reduce undiagnosed infection Mr Simon Burns: The reconfiguration of health services and prevent transmission among men who have sex should be a locally led process, with plans developed in with men, how many primary care trusts have partnership between commissioners, providers, local developed a local strategy to increase the uptake of authorities and the public. The aim of reconfiguration HIV testing among men who have sex with men in is to improve the quality of services for patients. The England; [86647] Secretary of State for Health, my right hon. Friend the (2) how many of the primary care trusts with a Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley), has diagnosed HIV prevalence in their local population been clear that reconfigurations should have the support exceeding two in 1,000 offer HIV testing to all men and of general practitioners commissioners, a clear clinical women registering in general practice and general evidence base, support for patient choice, and effective medical admissions in England; [86648] patient and public engagement. (3) with reference to the National Institute for It is the responsibility of commissioners to plan and Health and Clinical Excellence guideline on increasing secure the provision of the great majority of health the uptake of HIV testing to reduce undiagnosed services that their population needs. Therefore, if local infection and prevent transmission among black authorities or hon. Members believe there is evidence African communities living in England, how many that the current configuration of services in their locality primary care trusts developed a local strategy to could be improved to deliver better patient outcomes increase the uptake of HIV testing among black within available resources, they should approach the Africans in their area. [86649] relevant local national health service commissioner. 835W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 836W

NHS: ICT Private Members’ Bills

Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Hugh Bayley: To ask the Leader of the House if he Health what discussions his Department has had with will bring forward proposals for a supplementary the Computer Sciences Corporation on extending its ballot for additional private Members’ bills in any contract. [86519] future Parliamentary session which lasts for longer than one year. [86683] Mr Simon Burns: A series of discussions have been held with Computer Sciences Corporation relating to Sir George Young: Following the current one-off the existing contract. Discussions have been based upon adjustment to spring-to-spring sessions, the Government a number of options relating to alternative contractual does not envisage any future sessions of a similar length. approaches to secure value for the taxpayer. The Government nevertheless believes that the current As the contractual discussions have not concluded, single ballot would operate satisfactorily in the event of specific details cannot be provided at this time. a future, extended session. Queen’s Speech Social Services: Finance Mr Spellar: To ask the Leader of the House on what Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for date the Queen’s Speech will be held in the next Session Health what proportion of users of adult social care of Parliament. [86768] services are not self-funding in each local authority area. [86718] Sir George Young: The date of the Queen’s Speech will be announced in the usual way. Paul Burstow: The information requested is not collected centrally. Times of Sitting Telehealth Claire Perry: To ask the Leader of the House what recent assessment he has made of the House’s sitting Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for hours. [86681] Health (1) what assessment he has made of the likely take-up of telehealth schemes; [86545] Sir George Young: I have noted with interest the (2) what discussions he has had with private consultation on sitting hours produced by the Procedure companies on funding of telehealth schemes. [86546] Committee. I look forward to giving oral evidence to that Committee during its inquiry. Paul Burstow: The Department’s modelling suggests that at least 3 million people with long-term conditions could benefit from telehealth leading to a potential efficiency gain of around £1.2 billion over the next five WALES years. Departmental Food The Department has been discussing with industry about new models of delivery but it will be for the Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State national health service to commission services locally. for Wales how much her Department spent on food purchased through its food and catering services in the last 12 month period for which information is available. [86991] LEADER OF THE HOUSE Major Policy Initiatives Mr David Jones: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer I gave on 8 March 2011, Official Report, column 909W, to the hon. Member for Glasgow North East Alun Michael: To ask the Leader of the House what (Mr Bain). steps he is taking in respect of the announcement of major policy initiatives by Ministers. [86678] Driving Under Influence: Rehabilitation

Mr Heath: The House debated this issue during the Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Backbench Business debate on 5 December 2011 and what discussions her Department has had with the (a) rejected the proposal tabled by my hon. Friend the Welsh Government and (b) Driving Standards Agency Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone), and others. on (i) the provision of drink drive rehabilitation As the Leader of the House of Commons, my right courses in Wales and (ii) ensuring a consistent hon. Friend the Member for North West Hampshire approach to such courses in each constituent part of (Sir George Young), said during that debate, Ministers the UK. [86595] are very mindful of the requirement in the Ministerial Code that: Mr David Jones: The Department has regular discussions “when Parliament is in session the most important announcements within Whitehall and with the Welsh Government about of Government policy should be made, in the first instance, to a range of matters relevant to Wales. Parliament.” Under amendments introduced to the Road Traffic My right hon. Friend and I do not hesitate to remind Offenders Act 1988 by provisions in the Road Safety colleagues of that requirement. Act 2006, responsibility for drink drive rehabilitation 837W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 838W training in Wales will lie with Welsh Ministers. The work and have had an appeal heard to date. Of these, Driving Standards Agency will continue to liaise with 38% were found in favour of the appellant meaning the Welsh Government on the future operation of drink their entitlement to ESA was reinstated. drive rehabilitation training in Wales. Entitlement to ESA is based on functional capabilities, not on an individual’s condition. The medical condition recorded on a claim form does not in itself confer entitlement to ESA. So, for example, a decision on WORK AND PENSIONS entitlement for a person claiming employment and support Departmental Public Expenditure allowance on the basis of alcoholism would be based on their ability to carry out the range of activities assessed by the work capability assessment, or on the effects of Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work any associated mental health problems. It is also important and Pensions what expenditure his Department has to note that, where someone has more than one diagnosis incurred in (a) Birmingham, (b) Newcastle, (c) or disabling condition, only the predominant one is Wakefield, (d) Manchester, (e) Leeds, (f) Liverpool, currently recorded. (g) Coventry, (h) Bristol, (i) Sheffield, (j) Bradford, (k) Leicester and (l) Nottingham in the last fiscal year The Department regularly publishes official statistics on employment and support allowance and the work for which figures are available. [85543] capability assessment. The latest report was published Chris Grayling: The information requested is shown in October 2011 and can be found on the internet at the in the following table. link below. Information relating to appeals for the ESA case load as a whole can be found in Table 3. More detailed benefit expenditure tables including http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/workingage/ outturn data for all local authorities can be found here: index.php?page=esa_wca http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd4/ The data presented above comes from benefit claims index.php?page=expenditure data held by the Department for Work and Pensions, Benefit expenditure 2010-11 functional assessment data from Atos Healthcare and Local authority (£ million) appeals data from the Tribunals Service. Figures have been rounded to the nearest 100, or 1%. (a) Birmingham 2,587.9 Information on drug and alcohol misuse has been (b) Newcastle upon Tyne 681.1 calculated using the International Classification of Diseases (c) Wakefield 817.6 categories, “Mental and behavioural disorders due to (d) Manchester 1,170.2 multiple drug use and use of other psychoactive substances” (e) Leeds 1,649.2 and “Mental and behavioural disorders due to use of (f) Liverpool 1,418.4 alcohol”. (g) Coventry 767.2 Due to the time it takes for appeals to be submitted (h) Bristol 946.2 to, and heard by HM Courts and Tribunals Service, it is (i) Sheffield 1,267.1 likely there are more appeals that have not yet been (j) Bradford 1,127.1 heard. The number of appeals is therefore likely to (k) Leicester 705.5 change as more up to date information becomes available. (l) Nottingham 703.8 Note: Employment and Support Allowance: Public Finance Figures rounded to nearest hundred thousand. Source: DWP Statistical and Accounting data, and local authority subsidy Caroline Dinenage: To ask the Secretary of State for returns Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the cost to the public purse of reassessing those on Employment and Support Allowance: Drugs contributory employment and support allowance in the work-related activity group to see if they qualify for the Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for support group at the end of the 12 month time limit. Work and Pensions how many appeals have been made [86981] by employment and support allowance recipients receiving residential treatment for drug or alcohol Chris Grayling: I refer my hon. Friend to the written misuse who were not classified as limited capability for answer I gave the right hon. Member for Oxford East work without the requirement to attend a face-to-face (Mr Smith) on 1 December 2011, Official Report, column assessment in 2011; and how many of those appeals 1112W. were determined in favour of the appellant. [86840] Employment: Young People Chris Grayling: The specific information requested in not available. Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Work The Department does not hold centrally collated and Pensions what assessment he has made of the information on employment and support allowance potential effect of the Youth Contract on the level of (ESA) claimants receiving residential treatment for drug employment. [86858] or alcohol misuse. However, for claims starting between October 2008 and August 2010 (the latest period for Chris Grayling: The Youth Contract will provide which there is sufficient data for publication) where the nearly half a million new opportunities for young people, primary condition recorded relates to drug or alcohol including job subsidies, apprenticeships and work experience misuse, 9,300 were assessed by the Department as fit for placements. 839W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 840W

Job subsidy programmes have an impact on the labour Number of underground inspections at active producing mines in market, for example, OECD research from 2005 found England in 2010 that private sector subsidised employment programmes Site name Total 1 frequently have a positive impact on employment . However, Welbeck 6 the full impact of this package of measures on the level Westwood 1 of employment will depend on decisions on the detail of Winsford 10 provision which are not yet finalised. The Department Total 128 is currently developing an evaluation strategy for the Youth Contract. Social Security Benefits: Bexley 1 OECD (2005), “Labour Market Programmes and Activation Strategies: Evaluating the Impacts”, OECD Employment Outlook, p. 173-208. Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what recent estimate he has made of the Independent Living Fund number of people in the London borough of Bexley in receipt of out-of-work benefits as a result of (a) Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for alcohol and (b) drug dependency. [86165] Work and Pensions when he expects to make an announcement on the arrangements for the Chris Grayling: Drug and alcohol addiction is one of consultation for changes to the Independent Living the most damaging root causes of poverty, and helping Fund. [86729] people who are trapped on benefits through drug and alcohol addiction so that they can recover and find Maria Miller: In a written statement on 5 December employment is a top priority for the Government. 2011, Official Report, column 8WS, I announced that A breakdown by medical condition is only available the Government would consult on future support for incapacity benefit/severe disablement allowance arrangements for ILF users in spring 2012, alongside (IB/SDA) and employment and support allowance (ESA), the publication of the planned White Paper on the and is shown in the following table. Medical condition future of care and support in England. is not available for the other out-of-work benefits: jobseeker’s allowance (JSA) and income support (IS). London Underground: Industrial Health and Safety Total number of incapacity benefit/severe disablement allowance and employment and support allowance claimants with drug abuse and Stephen Mosley: To ask the Secretary of State alcoholism as a main disabling condition—Bexley local authority, for Work and Pensions how many underground May 2011 inspections were undertaken by Health and Safety Bexley IB/SDA ESA Executive personnel at each active mine in England in Alcoholism 60 50 2010. [86508] Drug abuse 50 10 Notes: Chris Grayling: There were 128 underground 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. inspections/investigations made at active producing mines 2. Employment and support allowance (ESA) replaced incapacity in England in 2010. This figure does not include visits benefit and income support paid on the grounds of incapacity for new where only surface structures and equipment were claims from 27 October 2008. inspected/investigated. A detailed breakdown of the 3. To qualify for incapacity benefit (IB), claimants have to undertake a medical assessment of incapacity for work called a personal capability statistics is as follows. assessment. Under the employment support allowance regime, new Number of underground inspections at active producing mines in claimants have to undergo the work capability assessment. From England in 2010 April 2011 incapacity benefit recipients will begin also to undertake this assessment. The medical condition recorded on the claim form Site name Total does not itself confer entitlement to incapacity benefit or employment Barrow 3 support allowance. So, for example, a decision on entitlement for a customer claiming IB or ESA on the basis of mental and behavioural Birkshead 1 disorders would be based on their ability to carry out the range of Boulby 18 activities assessed by the personal/work capability assessment. Brightling 2 4. Data includes those entitled to national insurance credits only. Daw Mill 16 Source: DWP Information, Governance and Security Directorate: Work and Elm Park 1 Pensions Longitudinal Study 100%. Eckington 5 Fauld 2 Work Programme Hartham Park 2 Hatfield 6 Mr Tom Clarke: To ask the Secretary of State for Hayroyds 4 Work and Pensions how the effectiveness of the Work Honister 1 programme will be measured; and if he will make a Jordans 1 statement. [87160] Kellingley 15 Linda Barrow 1 Chris Grayling: Individuals stay on the Work programme Maltby 12 for two years, so we expect to see substantial indications Marblaegis 5 of the effectiveness of the programme from spring 2013. South Crafty 4 A full independent evaluation has been commissioned Stoke Hill 1 for that year and I look forward to sharing the results with the House in due course. We will closely monitor Thoresby 11 the operation of the programme in the interim. 841W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 842W

Work Programme: Employment sources. WFJ is the sum of employee jobs (EJ) measured primarily by employer surveys, self-employment jobs (SEJ) from the Labour Force Survey (LFS), and government-supported trainees (GST) Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Her Majesty’s Forces (HMF) from administrative sources. and Pensions how many people over the age of 50 years have found paid employment as a result of the Work Table 1: Workforce Jobs, SIC 2007 Section K, seasonally adjusted Thousand programme. [86944] Q3 20111

Chris Grayling: The Department intends to publish North East 30 official statistics on referrals to the Work programme North West 98 from spring 2012 and on job outcomes from autumn Yorkshire and the Humber 98 2012. This is in line with guidelines set by the UK East Midlands 43 Statistics Authority to ensure published statistics meet West Midlands 73 the required high quality standards. East 83 London 351 South East 123 CABINET OFFICE South West 86 Wales 27 Construction: Procurement Scotland 93 Northern Ireland 20 Julian Sturdy: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet UK2 1,124 Office what the cost to the public purse was of use of 1 Numbers are rounded to the nearest 1,000. the Official Journal of the European Union public 2 Due to the effect of rounding the estimate for the UK does not equal procurement tendering process for UK construction the sum total of its constituent parts. projects in the latest period for which figures are available; and what the value was of the construction Government Departments: Internet works procured. [86292] Dr Huppert: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Mr Maude: Information on the cost of individual Office what assessment he has made of the risks posed procurements is not held centrally. by malware downloaded onto people’s computers via The total value of Central Government funded Adobe Reader on the basis of advice given on construction projects during 2011-12 is approximately Government websites. [86770] £10 billion. Mr Maude: I refer the hon. Member to the new Employment: Financial Services national cyber security strategy published on 25 November at: Hazel Blears: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/cyber- Office how many people were employed in the financial security-strategy services sector in (a) the South West, (b) the South which has assessed the risks to UK Government, private East, (c) London, (d) the West Midlands, (e) the East sector and individuals from cyber threats including the Midlands, (f) the East of England, (g) the North threat from malware. The strategy outlines how individuals West, (h) Yorkshire and the Humber, (i) the North have an important role to play in keeping cyberspace as East, (j) Scotland, (k) Wales and (l) Northern Ireland a safe place to do business and live their lives by taking on the latest date for which information is available. steps to protect themselves online. [87073] Get Safe Online is a joint Government/industry initiative to raise awareness of internet security which we support. Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the In November I launched the annual Get Safe Online responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Week which is an important means of alerting people to asked the authority to reply. the latest online threats including malware and the Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated December 2011: importance of updating their anti-virus and anti-spyware As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I as well as their operating systems. have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question The majority of threats can be avoided by following asking how many people are employed in the financial services some simple measures, and via Get Safe Online we will sector in (a) the South West, (b) the South East, (c) London, (d) continue to work to raise awareness and to educate and the West Midlands, (e) the East Midlands, (f) the East of England, empower people and firms to protect themselves online. (g) the North West, (h) Yorkshire and the Humber, (i) the North East, (j) Scotland, (k) Wales and (l) Northern Ireland at the latest date for which information is available. (87073) Ministers Table 1 contains the seasonally adjusted number of Workforce Jobs in SIC2007 Section K (financial and insurance activities) for Bill Esterson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Q3 2011 (September 2011), the latest date for which information Office what assessment he has made of the potential is available. Section K includes financial service activities, insurance, reinsurance and pension funding (except compulsory social security), for a reduction in the number of Government and activities auxiliary to financial services and insurance activities. Ministers and advisers following the planned reduction in the size of the House of Commons. [86846] Workforce Jobs is a quarterly measure of the number of jobs in the United Kingdom (UK) and is the preferred measure of the change in jobs by industry. It is a compound source that draws on Mr Maude: The Government are committed to keeping a range of employer surveys, household surveys and administrative the number of Ministers under review. 843W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 844W

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER Departmental Official Photographs

Constituencies Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many official photographs have been Alun Michael: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister taken of (a) Ministers and (b) senior officials in her when the proposals for new parliamentary Department for use in Government publications since constituencies in Wales will be published. [86854] May 2010; how many staff of her Department are expected to undertake photography of the Ministerial Mr Harper: The Boundary Commission for Wales and senior leadership team as part of their duties; and determines the timing of the parliamentary boundary if she will make a statement. [82566] review in Wales and all the stages within it. It has announced that it plans to publish its initial proposals Norman Baker: The following table provides information for the 2013 review of parliamentary constituencies in on the number of official photographs that have been January 2012, and that it expects to complete the 2013 taken since May 2010, as well as the numbers of staff review within the deadline stipulated by Parliament. who perform this function as part of their duties in the column headed (c):

(a) (b) Senior (c) Number TRANSPORT Ministers staff of staff Central Department 5 16 2 Aviation: Working Hours Highways Agency 7 11 1 Driving Standards 00 0 Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Agency Transport what recent discussions she had on the Vehicle and Operator 00 0 European Aviation Safety Agency’s notice of proposed Services Agency amendments on flight time limitations. [86248] Maritime and 00 0 Coastguard Agency Mrs Villiers: Officials from the Department for Transport Vehicle Certification 00 0 and the Civil Aviation Authority attended a meeting of Agency the European Aviation Safety Agency’s (EASA) Advisory Government Car and 00 0 Despatch Agency Group of National Authorities on 26 October at which Driver and Vehicle 04 1 the proposals were discussed. Licensing Agency Business: Administration Highways Agency Steve Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what steps she is taking to alleviate the Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for administrative burden of the provisions of EU Council Transport with reference to her Department’s Regulation 1071/2009 for small and micro-businesses. Structural Reform Monthly Implementation Plan, what progress has been made on work to review the [86801] Highways Agency. [86804] Mike Penning: The Department has adopted all flexibilities that the regulation allows to minimise any Mike Penning: The review, undertaken by Alan Cook, additional burdens on business. Existing businesses that the non-executive chairman of the Highways Agency, were formerly outside the requirements of operator was published on 24 November 2011. A copy of the licensing, but are now required to comply with the report can be found at: requirements of the regulation, will be given appropriate http://www.dft.gov.uk/publications/strategic-roads-network time to do so. Intercity Express Programme Crossrail Line: Bexleyheath Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what recent assessment her Department has Transport what steps she is taking to help maximise the made of the business case for the Intercity Express benefits of Crossrail for Bexleyheath and Crayford programme fleet to be deployed on the (a) Great residents. [86168] Western Main Line and (b) East Coast Main Line. [86849] Mrs Villiers: We are committed to delivering the agreed Crossrail scheme which will run to Abbey Wood. Mrs Villiers: Business cases for large projects are Rail passengers in Bexleyheath and Crayford will be periodically refreshed—for example, to reflect the latest able to access Crossrail services via Abbey Wood, from economic forecasts. where fast connections into the City, the West End and Business case updates were prepared for deployment beyond will be available, improving access to jobs, business of the IEP fleet on both the Great Western and East and leisure facilities. Coast Main Lines in November 2011. The extra capacity that is created by Crossrail will The economic case for the Intercity Express Programme also reduce congestion on many tube and rail lines remains strong, with a combined (ECML and GWML including Southeastern services. together) benefit:cost ratio of 2.3:1. 845W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 846W

Railway Stations: Worcester Shipping: Flags

Harriett Baldwin: To ask the Secretary of State for Karl Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what recent discussions she has had with Transport how many vessels are owned by each Network Rail on the creation of a Worcester Parkway company group that qualified for inclusion in the station. [86940] tonnage tax in 2011-12; and under which flag each such vessel sails. [86663] Mrs Villiers: We have had no recent discussions with Network Rail about the creation of a Worcester Parkway Mike Penning: The vessels operated by a tonnage tax station. It is for the promoter, Worcestershire county company or group may be owned, leased or chartered-in. council, to lead on discussions with the rail industry on I am unable to give a breakdown of the vessels operated this project. by company group, as this information is tax confidential. However, the anticipated total number of vessels for all Rescue Services: Liverpool companies entered in the tonnage tax as at 1 October 2011 was 883. Of these, 425 were UK flagged, 105 were Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for under other EEA flags, and 353 were under non-EEA Transport what assessment she has made of the flags. potential effects on public safety of the closure of Liverpool coastguard station. [86845] Karl Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport which flags are flown by ships owned by Mike Penning: No individual assessment specific to company groups that qualified for inclusion in the the closure of Liverpool Maritime Rescue Coordination tonnage tax in 2011-12. [86665] Centre has been made of the potential effects on public safety. Mike Penning: The ships which company groups The Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) has anticipated would be included in the tonnage tax at the assessed on a national basis the safety risks in relation beginning of the 2011-12 training commitment year to HM Coastguard’s current operation and how these were under the following flags: United Kingdom, Antigua are mitigated by the new structure announced on 22 and Barbuda, Australia, Bahamas, Barbados, Bermuda, November 2011. The MCA has also assessed the impact the Cayman Islands, Cyprus, Finland, Germany, Gibraltar, of the new structure on HM Coastguards capability to Greece, Honduras, Hong Kong, Isle of Man, Italy, deliver its national service. Liberia, Malta, the Marshall Islands, the Netherlands, These assessments, as well as a location impact Norway, Panama, St Vincent and the Grenadines and assessment, coastguard centre rationale and supporting Singapore. tables showing factors taken into consideration in the choice of coastguard centres can be found on the MCA’s Underground Railways: Tyne and Wear website: www.dft.gov.uk/mca Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport pursuant to the oral statement of the Rescue Services: Wales then Secretary of State for Transport of 26 October 2010, Official Report, column 178, on transport Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for (investment), whether the £4 million funding to Transport what assessment she has made of the accelerate the upgrade of the Tyne and Wear Metro adequacy of search and rescue services based in announced in section A.26 of the Autumn Statement England which cover South Wales. [86451] 2011 is additional to the £350 million investment announced in the oral statement. [86708] Mike Penning: We are confident that search and rescue helicopter services in South West England will Norman Baker: The Autumn Statement announcement continue to provide comprehensive cover in South Wales, related to funding brought forward to 2011-12 and as they do at present. reflected the good progress which Nexus is making in Shipping delivering its renewal programme. This is part of the Department for Transport’s existing contribution towards the asset renewal programme and is not additional. Karl Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what estimate she has made of the total number of new training roles for UK seafarers that will be created from the approved core training commitments submitted by company groups that have COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT entered the tonnage tax scheme for 2011-12. [86664] Council Tax Mike Penning: Approved core training commitments for the 2011-12 training commitment year are for around Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for 600 new first year officer trainees. Company groups are Communities and Local Government what estimate he additionally required to provide second and third year has made of the average percentage change in the level training for trainees taken on during the previous two of council tax benefit for (a) working families and (b) years when they were in the tonnage tax, so the cumulative single people in work as a result of the localisation of training commitment for 2011-12 is for around 1,800 council tax benefit in each local authority area; and if officer trainees. he will make a statement. [86669] 847W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 848W

Robert Neill: [holding answer 14 December 2011]: An Director General in his Department (i) were in 2010-11 impact assessment will be published alongside the legislation and (ii) are expected to be (A) between April and providing for the localisation of council tax support in December 2011, (B) between January and March 2012 England. The actual average impact in each local authority and (C) in 2012-13; whether he expects any change in area will depend on how local authorities design their salary or other costs from January 2012 in consequence schemes. of the appointment of the permanent secretary in his Mortgages: Government Assistance Department to hold the post of Head of the Civil Service; and if he will make a statement. [86587] Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many Robert Neill [holding answer 15 December 2011]: I mortgages supported by the Government’s new build do not expect any change in salary or costs for any indemnity scheme he expects to be additional DCLG director-general as a result of the appointment mortgages; and how many such mortgages he estimates of Sir Bob Kerslake as Head of the Civil Service. would have been issued in any case. [86860] Information on remuneration for board level officials, Grant Shapps: The Government will support up to including director-generals, is published in my Department’s 100,000 mortgages at up to 95% loan to value through annual report and accounts. The information published the new build indemnity scheme. As 95% loan to value for director-generals in the 2010-11 annual report and mortgages for new build are currently available only for accounts is reproduced in the following table, using the properties on a few sites, we expect nearly all mortgages same categories (of salary, bonus payments and benefit- under the scheme to be additional to such mortgages in-kind), together with the equivalent information for which would have been granted in any case. April to December 2011 and forecast information for the remaining periods. As bonus payments depend on Senior Civil Servants: Pay annual performance as assessed following the end of the performance year, it is not currently possible to Mr Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for forecast whether any of the individuals will receive a Communities and Local Government what the (a) bonus payment. All amounts in the table reflect only salary and (b) other costs associated with each payments made by DCLG.

2010-11 April to December 2011

Salary Bonus payments Bonus payments (£000) (£000) Benefits-in-kind Salary (£000) (£000) Benefits-in-kind

Richard McCarthy1 175-179 10-14 — 105-109 10-14 —

Irene Lucas2 150-154 5-9 — n/a n/a n/a

Joe Montgomery3 125-129 5-9 — n/a n/a n/a

David Prout 130-134 5-9 — 95-99 — —

David Rossington4 120-124 10-14 — 40-44 10-14 —

Shirley Pointer5 105-109 5-9 — n/a n/a n/a

Sue Higgins6 n/a n/a n/a 55-59 8——

Louise Casey7 n/a n/a n/a 20-24 8——

January to March 2012 (forecast) 2012-13 (forecast)

Salary Bonus payments Bonus payments (£000) (£000) Benefits-in-kind Salary (£000) (£000) Benefits-in-kind

Richard McCarthy1 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a

Irene Lucas2 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a

Joe Montgomery3 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a

David Prout 30-34 8— — 130-134 9——

David Rossington4 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a

Shirley Pointer5 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 849W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 850W

January to March 2012 (forecast) 2012-13 (forecast) Salary Bonus payments Bonus payments (£000) (£000) Benefits-in-kind Salary (£000) (£000) Benefits-in-kind

Sue Higgins6 30-34 8— — 135-139 9—— Louise Casey7 30-34 8— — 130-134 9—— 1 The figure quoted for Richard McCarthy for ’April to December 2011’ is for the period 1 April to 10 November 2011, when Mr McCarthy left the Department. The full year equivalent is in the range £175,000-£179,999. The Department is currently recruiting a replacement Director-General, advertised on the basis of a salary of circa £140,000. 2 The figure quoted for Irene Lucas for ’2010-11’ includes temporary responsibility allowance for a period where Ms Lucas was acting permanent secretary. The full year director general salary is in the range £145,000-£149,999. 3 The figure quoted for Joe Montgomery for ’2010-11’ is for the period 1 April 2010 to 31 January 2011, when Mr Montgomery left the Department. The full year equivalent is in the range £150,000-£154,999. 4 The figure quoted for David Rossington for ‘April to December 2011’ is for the period 1 April to 31 July 2011, during which period Mr Rossington was acting director-general, finance and corporate services. The full year equivalent is in the range £130,000-£134,999. 5 The figure quoted for Shirley Pointer for ‘2010-11’ is for the period 1 April 2010 to 3 January 2011, during which period Ms Pointer was acting director-general, HR and business change. The full year equivalent is in the range £135,000-£139,999. 6 The figure quoted for Sue Higgins for ’April to December 2011’ is for the period 1 August (when Ms Higgins joined DCLG) to 31 December 2011. The full year equivalent is in the range £135,000-£139,999. 7 The figure quoted for Louise Casey for ’April to December 2011’ is for the period 1 November (when Ms Casey joined DCLG) to 31 December 2011. The full year equivalent is in the range £130,000-£134,999. 8 None due. 9 Unknown.

TREASURY Mike Freer: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer on what date UK airlines were informed of the new air Air Passenger Duty passenger duty rates applicable from 1 April 2012. [86482] Henry Smith: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many of the 70 respondents to the Miss Chloe Smith: I refer the hon. Member to the Government’s consultation on the reform of air answer given on 12 December 2011, Official Report, passenger duty who commented on class of travel column 533W, to the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire called for seats with less than 40 inches of seat pitch to (Mr Donohoe). be liable at the reduced rate. [86477] Bell Pottinger Group Mike Freer: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) how many of the 70 respondents to the John Mann: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Government’s consultation on the reform of air whether (a) Ministers, (b) officials and (c) political passenger duty who commented on class of travel advisers in his Department have met representatives of called for seats with 40 inch seat pitch and less to be (i) Bell Pottinger Group or (ii) each of its subsidiaries liable for the reduced rate; [86479] in the last five years; on what dates any such meetings (2) how many of the 140 respondents to the took place; and what was discussed. [80045] Government’s consultation on the reform of air passenger duty who commented on the banding Mr Watson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer structure supported (a) the retention of a four band whether (a) he, (b) his officials and (c) his political structure, (b) a three band structure and (c) atwo advisers have met representatives of (i) Bell Pottinger band structure; [86481] Group and (ii) clients of Bell Pottinger Group on the (3) how many of the 70 respondents to the recommendation of that Group since May 2010; on Government’s consultation on the reform of air what dates any such meetings took place; and what was passenger duty who commented on class of travel discussed. [86775] called for (a) premium economy passengers to be liable for the reduced rate and (b) premium economy Miss Chloe Smith: Treasury Ministers and officials have meetings with a wide variety of organisations and passengers to remain liable for standard rate. [86483] individuals in the public and private sectors as part of Miss Chloe Smith: I refer the hon. Members to the the process of policy development and delivery. As was answer given on 13 December 2011, Official Report, the case with previous Administrations, it is not the column 683W, to the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire Government’s practice to provide details of all such (Mr Donohoe). meetings. A list of ministerial meetings with external stakeholders Mike Freer: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer is published quarterly on the HM Treasury website: what the cost was of his Department’s consultation on http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/minister_hospitality.htm the reform of air passenger duty; and how many working hours were spent on the consultation by civil Capital Gains Tax service staff. [86480] Owen Smith: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Miss Chloe Smith: I refer the hon. Member to the what estimate he has made of the number of answer given on 12 December 2011, Official Report, individuals who will incur a net loss as a result of the column 532W, to the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire freezing of the Capital Gains Tax annual exempt (Mr Donohoe). amount announced in the Autumn Statement. [86857] 851W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 852W

Mr Hoban: Freezing the annual exempt amount (AEA) will be made available to the Department for Work and in 2012-13 will affect all individuals with a Capital Pensions (DWP) to support the administration of universal Gains Tax (CGT) liability in that year. The number of credit. individuals liable to CGT in 2009-10, the latest year for which figures are available, is estimated at 148,000 and Departmental Secondment is published at: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/capital_gains/table14-1.xls Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the An additional 12,000 taxpayers each year could become Exchequer what secondments there have been to his liable to CGT over the next five years, as a result of the Department from (a) industry and (b) the third sector freeze. However, some individuals will arrange their since May 2010; what the (i) purpose and (ii) duration disposals to keep the gains below the AEA and will is of each secondment; and whether each secondment therefore have nothing to pay. was to a policy development role. [86130]

Commodity Markets Miss Chloe Smith: Since 1 August 2010 there have been 41 secondments into HM Treasury from industry. Heidi Alexander: To ask the Chancellor of the There have been no secondments from the third sector. Exchequer what his policy is on the proposed review of Appointments have varied in length between two months the Markets in Financial Instruments Directive in and two years, with a median of seven months. Secondees relation to commodity derivatives markets. [85219] into the organisation are used in a variety of roles where internal knowledge is scarce or where specialist skills Mr Hoban [holding answer 6 December 2011]: The are required. Government strongly supports the European Commission’s review of the Markets in Financial Instruments Directive Financial Services: Manpower (MiFID) and the objectives to strengthen the Single Market in financial services, to ensure resilient and sound financial markets. Hazel Blears: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many people were employed in the In the MiFID review, the Government supports the financial services sector in (a) the North West and (b) principle of strong regulatory oversight powers on the UK in (i) 2005, (ii) 2006, (iii) 2007, (iv) 2008, (v) commodities markets through the application of a position 2009 and (vi) 2010. [87075] management regime based on strong supervision and market monitoring; and through measures designed to Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply. increase transaction reporting requirements and improve trading transparency. While it is important to keep the The information requested falls within the responsibility scope of exemptions for specialist commodity trading of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority firms under review, the Government does not believe to reply. there is currently a strong case for a significant change Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated December 2011: in the boundaries of MiFID for these firms. As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I We will be working closely with the European have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question concerning Commission and other EU member states as negotiations how many people were employed in the financial services sector in proceed to ensure that commodity derivative markets (a) the North West and (b) the UK in (i) 2005, (ii) 2006, (iii) 2007, (iv) 2008, (v) 2009 and (vi) 2010. (87075) provide robust and consistent price discovery mechanisms for the underlying commodities, and are sufficiently The following table contains the seasonally adjusted number of liquid to enable participants to hedge and manage their Workforce Jobs in Standard Industrial Classification 2007 (SIC2007) Section K (financial and insurance activities) for the North West risks. and UK for 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010. Section K includes financial service activities, insurance, reinsurance and Departmental Manpower pension funding (except compulsory social security), and activities auxiliary to financial services and insurance activities. Mr Frank Field: To ask the Chancellor of the Workforce Jobs (WFJ) is a quarterly measure of the number of Exchequer which employers are working with his jobs in the United Kingdom (UK) and is the preferred measure of Department to collect real time income data in support the change in jobs by industry. It is a compound source that draws of the universal credit. [86707] on a range of employer surveys, household surveys and administrative sources. WFJ is the sum of employee jobs (EJ) measured primarily by employer surveys, self-employment jobs (SEJ) from the Labour Mr Gauke: HMRC is working with a group of employers Force Survey (LFS), and government-supported trainees (GST) and software developers to pilot Real Time Information and Her Majesty’s Forces (HMF) from administrative sources.

(RTI) in 2012-13. The employers involved in the RTI 1, 2 Pilot are volunteers and have been chosen to be a Workforce Jobs . SIC 2007 section K. Seasonally adjusted representative group of organisations operating PAYE. Thousand They range in size and complexity from those with one North West UK employee to very large complex employers with many 2005 108 1,158 employees or pensioners. Those participating include 2006 106 1,148 local government, banks, payroll bureaux and agents, 2007 110 1,169 retail and manufacturing, farmers, universities, colleges 2008 111 1,189 and schools, charities, hotels, film companies, software 2009 114 1,180 developers, pension providers and services companies. 2010 94 1,125 HMRC expects all employers and pension providers 1 Annual figures relate to June quarter (Q2). to be using RTI by October 2013 and appropriate data 2 Numbers are rounded to the nearest thousand. 853W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 854W

Income tax: Females (8) whether the Money Advice Service is a public body under the Freedom of Information Act Claire Perry: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer provisions. [83805] pursuant to the answer of 25 October 2011, Official Report, column 130W, on income tax: females, what Mr Hoban: The Money Advice Service is an independent estimate he has made of the cost to the public purse of body, funded by a levy on the financial services industry. taking the (a) 59 per cent. in April 2011 and (b) 56 per The Financial Services Authority (FSA) is responsible cent. in April 2012 of people out of taxation who are for approving its Business Plan and Budget. The Money Advice Service will publish its Business Plan and Budget women. [86499] for 2012-13 in March 2012. Mr Gauke: Personal allowances for those aged under I have asked the Money Advice Service to respond to 65 have increased by £1,000 in 2011-12 to £7,475 and the detailed points you have raised in writing. A copy of will increase by a further £630 in 2012-13 to £8,105. the letter will be placed in the Libraries of the House. The estimated cost of these measures published at The Government are committed to the principle of Budget 2011 is shown in the following table: open Government. They want to make it easy for people to find out information that is relevant to them, to aid £ million accountability and increase public understanding of 2011-12 measure 2012-13 measure decisions which affect them. The Freedom of Information Act does not currently apply to the Money Advice 2011-12 -3,340 0 Service. The Government are however seeking to extend 2012-13 -3,580 -1,050 coverage of the Act to further bodies under section 5 of 2013-14 -3,620 -1,210 the Act, and will keep the position of the Money Advice 2014-15 -3,710 -1,200 Service under review. 2015-16 -3,820 -1,230 Ofgem: Fines It is estimated that around 1.2% of total exchequer costs of the 2011-12 personal allowance increase were associated with those females taken out of tax as a Caroline Flint: To ask the Chancellor of the result of the measure in 2011-12. A comparable figure Exchequer how much revenue his Department has for the 2012-13 personal allowance increase is 0.3% in collected as a result of fines imposed by Ofgem in each 2012-13. of the last 10 years. [86526] These estimates are Budget 2011 estimates based on Miss Chloe Smith: The following fines/penalties have the 2007-08 Survey of Personal Incomes, projected been collected by Ofgem over the past 10 years and paid using economic assumptions consistent with the Office into the Consolidated Fund: for Budget Responsibility’s March 2011 economic and fiscal outlook. £

Money Advice Service 2001-02 — 2002-03 2,000,000 Chris Leslie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer 2003-04 400,000 (1) if he will place a copy of the Money Advice Service 2004-05 1,900,000 draft business plan for 2012-13 in the Library; [83463] 2005-06 — (2) how much has been spent on legal advice on staff 2006-07 — restructuring by the Money Advice Service in the last 2007-08 25,000 12 months; [83465] 2008-09 1,800,000 (3) how much has been spent on (a) bonus payments 2009-10 2,000,000 and (b) foreign travel for senior management by the 2010-11 15,810,000 Money Advice Service in the most recent financial 2011-12 (to 12 December 2011) 10,000,000 year; [83466] (4) how many people have started a Money Advice In addition, Ofgem has announced two further fines Service financial health check since they were in 2011-12 totalling £4,500,000 (of which £2,500,000 is introduced; and how many have been completed; proposed and £2,000,000 awaiting collection). [83467] Personal Pensions (5) what assessment he has made of changes in the level of provision of financial education outreach Mr Thomas: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer services through schools, further education colleges, on what dates (a) he, (b) other Ministers in his higher education institutions and workplaces by the Department and (c) senior officials in his Department Money Advice Service in the last 12 months; [83468] have met representatives of (i) the British Bankers (6) how many (a) face-to-face meetings and (b) Association and (ii) the Association of British Insurers responses to telephone enquiries he expects the Money to discuss the charges, commission or fees paid by Advice Service will deliver in each of the next three people with a private pension since May 2010; and if he financial years; [83469] will make a statement. [86866] (7) how much of Money Advice Service’s budget has been spent on (a) advertising, (b) public relations and Mr Hoban: Treasury Ministers and officials have (c) marketing in the last year; and how much it plans discussions with a wide variety of organisations in the to spend on such activities next year; [83470] public and private sectors as part of the process of 855W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 856W policy development and delivery. As was the case with the recent elections in Democratic Republic of previous Administrations, it is not the Government’s Congo. [86086] practice to provide details of all such discussions. Mr Bellingham: I have been asked to reply. Rebates: Fraud The British Government raised our concerns about reports of irregularities in the Democratic Republic of Dr Huppert: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Congo (DRC) elections when the Head of the UN what estimate he has made of the cost to the public Peacekeeping Mission to DRC (MONUSCO) briefed purse of payments for tax refunds being fraudulently the Security Council on 2 December. Following this redirected as a result of websites that impersonate meeting the UN Security Council issued a statement Government websites in the last three financial years. welcoming the good turnout of voters in the elections, [86764] but expressing concern at the reports of logistical problems during the election process. Following the release of the Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs do not have full provisional election results, on 12 December an estimate of the cost of tax refund payments being MONUSCO released a further statement urging the fraudulently redirected as a result of websites that electoral commission to address the irregularities identified impersonate Government websites. by observer groups. Taxation: Switzerland We will continue to work with international partners to urge the DRC authorities to investigate and address Owen Smith: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer all irregularities. by what date he expects the UK-Switzerland taxation EU External Trade: Cocoa agreement announced on 24 August 2011 to be implemented. [86856] Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what contribution his Mr Hoban: The Government’s aim is for the agreement Department plans to make to the development of a between the UK and Switzerland on co-operation in new European standard for sustainable and traceable tax matters to come into force on 1 January 2013. This cocoa; and what steps he plans to take to ensure that allows for the time needed to complete parliamentary the standard meets the demands of smallholder cocoa procedures in both countries. producers in developing countries and acts as a driver Union of Good: USA to improve their social and economic development. [86720] Robert Halfon: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what communication he has had with the Mr Duncan: The new European standard for sustainable US Treasury on the activities of the Union of Good; and traceable cocoa is being developed by the standards and if he will make a statement. [86594] body for the industry itself. This body is independent. The Department for International Development has Mr Hoban: Treasury Ministers and officials have not engaged in any consultation with the British Standards meetings with a wide variety of international partners, Institute. The Department for Environment, Food and as well as organisations and individuals in the public Rural Affairs have also confirmed that they have not and private sectors as part of the process of policy engaged in any consultation. development and delivery. As was the case with previous Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria Administrations, it is not the Government’s practice to provide details of all such meetings. Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what proportion of total (a) commitments and (b) payments to the Global INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Fund for (i) HIV/AIDS, (ii) malaria and (iii) tuberculosis have been made by the UK in each of the Democratic Republic of Congo: Elections last five years. [86191]

Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of Mr Duncan: UK pledges (commitments) and State for International Development if he will raise contributions (payments) to the fund over the past five at the UN the issue of electoral irregularities during years are as follows:

UK’s share of total pledges and contributions to the Global Fund for 2007-11 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011

UK pledge 187,202,000 78,520,000 184,071,300 199,680,000 199,680,000 All pledges 2,532,763,541 2,920,108,597 3,121,074,520 3,296,886,375 2,840,838,958 UK share (percentage) 7.39 2.69 5.89 6.05 7.02

UK contribution 187,202,000 78,520,000 184,071,300 308,341,640 434,126,769 All contributions 2,534,998,752 2,920,108,597 2,949,139,270 2,783,321,164 1,813,644,669 UK share (percentage) 7,38 2.69 6.24 11 23.9 857W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 858W

Cumulative proportion of total pledges since inception: animal origin, and anticipates a budget of less than The UK has pledged a total of £1,409 million to the £25,000 per annum on paid-for communication. The Global Fund. This is equivalent to USD $2,306,282,555 aim of the communication is to raise awareness and to and constitutes nearly 8% of the total USD $29,047,815,412 reduce the risk of contaminated food being brought pledged by all government donors to the fund. into the UK and putting people, animals and agriculture at risk of disease. Cumulative proportion of total contributions: DEFRA is also exploring with other Government The UK contribution to date amounts to £997.1 million, Departments such as the UK Border Agency and the equivalent to USD $1,665,201,387 and constitutes 8.4% Foreign and Commonwealth Office the use of free/low of the total of USD $19,711,676,679 received in cost communication media to continue to help raise contributions to the fund. travellers’ awareness of the rules on personal imports of Donors do not earmark their contributions to any animal products. particular disease, country or activity. The cumulative proportion of actual grant expenditure between the Food Supply three diseases, as of January 2011, is HIV 57%, Malaria 29%, TB 14%. Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment she has made of the prospects for UK food security at each extreme of population range projected by the ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Office for National Statistics for 2050. [86819] Farms: Regulation Mr Paice: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to the hon. Members for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Andrew Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Jamieson) and Totnes (Dr Wollaston) on 1 December Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what progress 2011, Official Report, column 1053W. her Department has made on reducing the administrative demands placed on farmers by environmental regulations. [85567] BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Mr Paice: The Government have introduced the one-in, Business: Government Assistance one-out rule, meaning that no new domestic legislation imposing costs on business can be introduced without the identification and removal of existing regulations Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for with an equivalent value. Since January 2011, only two Business, Innovation and Skills what funding over measures impacting the farming sector have been £100,000 his Department’s Finance and Commercial introduced. Both are of a deregulatory nature, with a Directorate allocated to partner organisations in (a) net saving of approximately £730,000 per annum. 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. [86888] In my written statement of 3 November 2011, Official Report, columns 40-41WS, I announced the publication Mr Davey: BIS’s Finance and Commercial Directorate of the interim response to the independent Farm Regulation did not allocate any funding to partner organisations in Task Force. We will publish a final response in early either 2010-11 or 2011-12. 2012. Details of the amounts of grant in aid for each of We also aim to reduce burdens placed on farmers by BIS’s partner organisations may be found in the notes environmental regulations under the Red Tape Challenge pages to the 2010-11 and 2011-12 Main Estimates. Environment Theme, on which an announcement will be made in the spring, and the Water and Marine Export Credit Guarantees: Libya Theme, which will be launched in February. Food Lorely Burt: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills which projects have led to debt being owed by Libya to the Export Credits Fiona O’Donnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Guarantee Department since 1981. [84108] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much funding she has allocated to the Don’t bring me back Mr Davey: There are no outstanding amounts owed campaign (a) in 2011-12 and (b) in each of the next by Libya to ECGD. three years. [86566] Intellectual Property Mr Paice: To date, no funds have been allocated to the ‘Don’t Bring Me Back’ campaign for 2011-12, in Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for line with the Government’s commitment to deliver Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he plans to communications at no or low cost. An indicative budget take to implement the recommendations on exception of no more than £25,000 may be drawn upon in the in the Hargreaves Report on intellectual property. event that paid-for activity is required, but we will [86789] continue to make use of no cost channels as the first choice option. Mr Davey: On 14 December, the Government launched For the next three years, DEFRA will continue to their consultation on how to take forward the copyright prioritise no cost or low cost communications activity recommendations of the Hargreaves Report, including to raise awareness about illegal imports of products of the recommendation to modernise the UK’s exceptions 859W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 860W to copyright. The consultation will run until 21 March The Impact Assessment can be found on the BIS 2012 and the Government hopes that all those with an website on the following link: interest in how we can best ensure that our copyright http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/further-education-skills/ system is fit for the digital age will take the opportunity docs/f/11-1218-further-education-loans-impact-assessment to respond to it. During 2012 the Government will continue to deliver Tourism: Arts the commitments set out in their response to the Hargreaves Review of Intellectual Property and Growth, and this Angie Bray: To ask the Secretary of State for will include a response to the consultation on copyright. Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has The Government have separately announced, on 22 made of the consequences for inbound tourism to November, the appointment of Richard Hooper to lead London of planned changes to the art market in 2012. a feasibility study into a Digital Copyright Exchange. [86785] Scholarships Mr Davey: On 1 January 2012, the Artist’s Resale Right Directive 2001 will be fully implemented in the Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for UK, when Resale Right is automatically extended to Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has sales of in copyright works by qualifying deceased made of the amount per student that the National artists. On the same date, Statutory Instrument (2873) Scholarship Programme will be worth in (a) 2012-13, will come into force, correcting the requirements as to (b) 2013-14 and (c) 2014-15. [86492] the nationality of those entitled to exercise Artist’s Resale Right. Mr Hayes: The National Scholarship Programme is No specific assessment of the effect of these changes designed to benefit students whose family income is no on tourism has been made, however the total economic greater than £25,000. Participating universities and colleges impact of the right once extended to deceased artists establish their own eligibility criteria, based on their has been assessed at less than 0.15% of market turnover own circumstances, to determine whom to help from (around £12 million in royalties in a market worth among this broad group of people. £8 billion per year) and accordingly the extension is not All institutions that intend to charge more than the considered likely to damage the market. The changes basic rate for tuition from 2012 are required to participate made by the Statutory Instrument on the other hand in the programme and contribute match funding. are actually estimated to reduce administrative costs for Universities are responsible for advertising their criteria the art market by 10% to 20%. and making the awards. In the first year, the Government will contribute £50 million towards the NSP. The Government’s HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION contribution rises to £100 million in 2013-14 and £150 million in 2014-15. The minimum level for an Electronic Equipment: House of Commons award in 2012/13 is set at £3,000 for each eligible full-time student. Part time students studying to a minimum intensity of 25% can receive a pro-rata award. Arrangements Simon Hart: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, for future years have not been announced. Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of Universities and colleges can use their match funding Commons Commission, how many iPads have been to either increase the number of awards available, or the purchased for use by House of Commons staff; and value of an award. what the cost of such purchases was in 2011. [85869] Students: Loans John Thurso: Since 1 January 2011, 17 iPads have been purchased for use by staff of the House of Commons and 17 iPads have been purchased for the use of PICT Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for staff. They are being used to explore how mobile computing Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has might be used to support the work of Parliament, and made of the proportion of access to higher education what cost savings or environmental benefits might be student loans taken out in the academic year 2013-14 gained. A similar pilot is taking place with hon. Members which will be repaid in full if the proposed changes to on the Administration Committee. further education fee structures are implemented. [81529] The iPads were models iPad 1 and 2 with 3G and wi-fi connection. The total cost of the devices was Mr Hayes: The Impact Assessment published alongside £17,019.59. the New Challenges, New Chances consultation on further education (FE) loans included an assumption that 40% of the value of loans taken out will be repaid. This applies to all loans taken out from the academic FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE year 2013/14 onwards, for all types of course. There is, however, no information available specifically for the Democratic Republic of Congo: Elections subset of FE learners who are taking ‘Access to HE’ qualifications. The Department for Business, Innovation Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for and Skills is carrying out further research and analysis Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment to improve the accuracy of the simulation model used he has made of the conduct of the recent election in the to calculate the figure above. Democratic Republic of Congo. [86875] 861W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 862W

Mr Bellingham: I was pleased that the observer missions In February 2010 Reprieve brought judicial review reported that polling day in Democratic Republic of proceedings against the Foreign Secretary and other Congo (DRC) elections was largely peaceful with a Government Ministers in connection with guidance to good turnout of voters. I am also pleased that, following UK officials on their role and responsibilities in relation lobbying by the British Government and others, the to the interviewing of detainees in foreign detention DRC electoral commission published results from each who may be subject to mistreatment. The proceedings polling station. However 1 remain concerned at the were not successful. The Administrative Court refused reports of irregularities throughout the process, and Reprieve permission to bring the judicial review proceedings particularly during the compilation of results. We continue and ordered them to pay part of the Government’s to urge the Commission Electorale Nationale Indépendante costs, amounting to £2,000. Reprieve has now paid this to address all reported irregularities quickly and sum. transparently. We also encourage anyone with evidence of wrongdoing to make it public so that an overall Departmental Risk Assessment assessment of the election process can be made and lessons learned. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Catering Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what risk registers are held by the public bodies for which his Department Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State is responsible; and if he will make a statement. [85705] for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether food and catering services in (a) his Department and (b) Mr Lidington: The Westminster Foundation for public bodies for which he is responsible plan to Democracy, the Great Britain—China Centre and the implement calorie labelling on menus and display Marshall Aid Commemoration Commission all hold boards. [85858] single risk registers assessing the following categories of risk: strategic/corporate/reputational, financial, operations Mr Lidington: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office and projects and programmes. The British Council also are in discussion with our UK catering contractor, has a risk register covering these issues. They also hold Compass, who are committed to the Responsibility risk registers for each country, each sector, each business Deal, to explore how and when we might introduce this unit and customer management. Establishing how initiative without an overall increase in costs. many registers they maintain globally would incur It would incur disproportionate cost to source this disproportionate cost. data from our network of posts and our public bodies as this information is held locally. Khaled al-Johani

Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps the and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he food and catering services in (a) his Department and has made to the government of Saudi Arabia on (b) public bodies for which he is responsible are taking Khaled al-Johani. [86724] to ensure the countries of origin of foods are labelled on its menus and display boards. [85859] Alistair Burt: We have not specifically raised Mr al-Johani’s case with the Saudi Arabian Government. Mr Lidington: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s However, Ministers and officials do take every opportunity UK catering contractor, Compass, provide this information to raise with the Saudi authorities our full range of to staff when requested within the UK. human rights concerns, including detention without It would incur disproportionate cost to source this trial. I did so most recently when I called on the data from our network of 260 posts and our public National Society for Human Rights on 23 November, a bodies, as this information is held locally. Saudi human rights organisation with close links to the Departmental Civil Proceedings Saudi Arabian Government.

Mr Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill and Commonwealth Affairs which organisations that 2010-12 have received funding from his Department have brought legal proceedings against his Department in Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for the last five years; which such organisations were not Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the successful in their actions; and whether his Department answer of 5 December 2011, Official Report, column (a) applied and (b) was paid for costs in respect of 56W, on Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of such cases. [83888] Offenders Bill 2010-12, and with reference to his confirmation of the UK’s commitment to the Ruggie Mr Lidington: Our records show that the only principles, what assessment he has made of the letter organisation that has received funding from the Foreign sent by Professor Ruggie to the Parliamentary Under- and Commonwealth Office (FCO) that has brought Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Huntingdon, legal proceedings against the Foreign Secretary in the on the effects of his proposed reforms in the Legal Aid, last five years is Reprieve. Reprieve receives a modest Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill on the grant from the FCO to support work to prevent the ability of impecunious people to secure representation execution of British nationals facing the death penalty and justice in cases (a) against businesses and (b) of overseas. human rights abuse. [86843] 863W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 864W

Mr Jeremy Browne: Following the UN Human Rights Sergei Magnitsky Council’s endorsement in June of the UN Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights, in which the Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for UK played an important role, the Government are fully Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs on what dates Mr committed to implementing those principles as part of William Browder visited his Department to discuss the a wider strategy on business and human rights. We do case of Sergei Magnitsky; and which (a) Ministers and not believe that the reform of the Legal Aid, Sentencing (b) officials he met on each such occasion. [86848] and Punishment of Offenders Bill is incompatible with this commitment. We believe that it will still be possible Mr Lidington: The information requested is as follows: to bring claims against (a) multinational companies or (a) I met Mr William Browder on 7 March 2011 to discuss the (b) those allegedly guilty of human rights abuses once case of Sergei Magnitsky. these reforms are implemented. However, reforms will (b) The Director Eastern Europe and Central Asia met Mr William help ensure that meritorious claims will be resolved at a Browder on 19 March 2009, 20 November 2009, 6 October 2010 more proportional cost; while unnecessary and avoidable and 13 December 2011 to discuss the case of Sergei Magnitsky. claims will be deterred from progressing to court. Union of Good: USA

Libya: Terrorism Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for he has had with the US government on the Union of Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what progress has Good; and if he will make a statement. [86593] been made by the specialist unit in his Department in negotiations with the new Libyan government on Alistair Burt: Foreign and Commonwealth Office compensation for victims of terrorism in the UK; and Ministers and officials have meetings with a wide variety if he will make a statement. [86227] of international partners, as well as organisations and individuals in the public and private sectors, as part of Alistair Burt: A specialist unit was set up under the the process of policy development and delivery. As was previous Administration in 2009. The remit of the the case with previous Administrations, it is not the officers in the dedicated FCO Unit has been to offer Government’s practice to provide details of all such facilitation, logistical support and general advice to the meetings campaign seeking compensation for the victims of IRA terrorism that was sponsored by Libya through the supply of Semtex. They have also accompanied ATTORNEY-GENERAL representatives of the victims at meetings with the Libyan Government. Extradition: USA Properly addressing legacy issues will be an important part of the UK’s relationship with Libya. I raised this Caroline Lucas: To ask the Attorney-General with with the Libyan Transitional Government during my reference to the contribution by the Minister of State visit to Tripoli on 6-8 December. I made clear our desire for Immigration of 5 December 2011, Official Report, to see progress on outstanding issues from the Gaddafi column 128, on UK extradition arrangements, whether era. The newly appointed Foreign Minister Ashour Ben any of the evidence against Babar Ahmad that is in the Khayyal agreed that we would take forward discussions possession of the US authorities was gathered by (a) on this. UK authorities and passed to the US and (b) US The campaigns seeking compensation for IRA victims authorities on UK soil. [85893] are private. The terms of the campaigns and the range of victims are therefore also private. However, we Damian Green: I am replying as the Minister with understand at this stage that no settlement has been responsibility for mutual legal assistance as that is the made. mechanism by which evidence is transferred from one jurisdiction to another in a criminal case. It is our usual policy neither to confirm nor deny whether the UK Saudi Arabia: Counter-Terrorism authorities have provided evidence or other formal assistance in support of foreign criminal proceedings so as not to prejudice those proceedings; and therefore I Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign cannot confirm or deny whether or not that took place and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has in this case. had with his Saudi Arabian counterparts on a proposed anti-terror law for Saudi Arabia. [86725]

Alistair Burt: We have been aware of the draft counter- WOMEN AND EQUALITIES terrorism law since Amnesty International reported on this matter in June and officials have raised concerns Nightclubs: Fees and Charges with the Saudi Arabian Government. There is widespread acceptance in the Saudi Government and Saudi human Mark Menzies: To ask the Minister for Women and rights organisations that the draft anti-terror law is Equalities what representations she has received on the unsuitable in its present form: the current draft is extremely practice of charging differential fees to men and unlikely to pass into law. women for entry to nightclubs. [86060] 865W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 866W

Lynne Featherstone: I have received no representations Duration on the practice of charging men and women differential of entry fees for entry to nightclubs. course Under Over (weeks) 18 (£) 18 (£)

Full cost of training per recruit at 23 53,985 n/a Army Technical Foundation College, DEFENCE Winchester Full cost of training per recruit at 50 64,458 n/a Aircraft Carriers Army Foundation College, Harrogate Full cost of training per recruit at 14 n/a 21,318 Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Army Training Centre, Pirbright Defence whether the completion date for the two Full cost of training per recruit at 14 n/a 26,992 aircraft carriers that are currently under construction Army Training Regiment, have changed; and what the causes of any such delay Bassingbourn are. [85234] Full cost of training per recruit at 14 n/a 26,543 Infantry Training Centre, Catterick (Phase 1) Peter Luff: The currently approved planned in-service dates for HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of n/a = not applicable Wales are quarter four of 2016 and quarter four of 2018 The average unit rate varies depending on both the respectively. number of recruits being trained and the course duration The completion dates for construction have not changed. at each training site. However, the Strategic Defence and Security Review Information relating to the average expenditure per called for one operational Queen Elizabeth class carrier recruit for Phase 2 training is not available in the format to be converted to support the more capable Carrier requested and could be provided only at disproportionate Variant of the Joint Strike Fighter and we are investigating cost. This is because Phase 2 (trade training) varies for the optimum solution to meet that requirement. On each of the over 220 trades offered by the Army, both in current plans, we expect to conclude work to enable terms of content and course length. However, as Phase 2 firm decisions on the optimum conversion solution for training is not age dependent, there would be no difference the operational carrier in late 2012. Depending on the in any average training cost for a specific trade between outcome of that work, the completion date for the those who are under or over the age of 18. construction of the carriers may change. Either way we will have an operational carrier from around 2020. Defence Equipment Armed Forces: Recruitment Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for pursuant to the answer of 30 November 2011, Official Blaydon of 21 October 2011, Official Report, column Report, column 977W, on armed forces: recruitment, 1167W, on defence equipment, what the cost was of what the cost per recruit was of medical assessments using Ministry of Defence-owned road vehicles to for potential pilots; and if he will make a statement. transport military kit in (a) 2006-07, (b) 2007-08, (c) [86502] 2008-09 and (d) 2009-10; on how many occasions Ministry of Defence-owned road vehicles were used to Mr Robathan: We do not hold records for the cost per transport military kit in each of those years; and if he recruit of medical assessments for potential pilots. All will make a statement. [86501] officer candidates undergo medical assessments, although there are additional tests for potential aircrew. Peter Luff: The use of Ministry of Defence owned road vehicles to transport defence equipment is primarily Armed Forces: Young People undertaken at unit level. Journeys are not individually costed or recorded centrally and the requested information Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Defence what the average expenditure per Army recruit was of recruiting and training to identical roles recruits who were aged (a) under 18 years and (b) 18 years or Members: Correspondence above in the latest period for which figures are available. [86636] Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when he expects to reply to the letter of Mr Robathan: The average cost of recruiting an Army 25 November 2011 from the hon. Member for Harrow recruit in financial year (FY) 2010-11 was £10,000; this West to the Minister for Defence Personnel, Welfare covers the full recruitment process, including selection, and Veterans; and if he will make a statement. [86887] and does not vary between those who are under or over 18 years of age. Mr Robathan: A reply was sent on 12 December The following table provides the average expenditure 2011. The hon. Member’s letter was received on 1 December for the full cost of providing Phase 1 training, including 2011 and received a response within eight working days. accommodation, meals, welfare, health and other support The Ministry of Defence aims to answer correspondence per Army recruit for FY 2010-11. from hon. Members within 15 working days. 867W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 868W

Military Aircraft what estimate he has made of the cost of any such alterations; and if he will make a statement. [86646] Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what estimate he has made of the cost to the Nick Harvey: Work has begun to determine the precise public purse of upgrading the two purchased F-35B capacity of the defence estate as we seek to maximise its variants to the standards required by the US Marine use and rationalise where appropriate. Until this work is Corps after the completion of testing. [86282] completed it is too early to say what alterations will be required to RAF Leuchars or how much this will cost. Peter Luff: The previous Government ordered three F-35B aircraft for test and evaluation purposes. One has been exchanged for a F-35C variant. The mission systems for the F-35B and F-35C are largely the same EDUCATION but, the UK is upgrading the Short Take Off and Vertical Landing Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) for its own purposes in order to conduct initial operational test of Schools: Manpower JSF alongside US Services. We have included sufficient funding within the original financial approval for these Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for aircraft to ensure that they are upgraded to the appropriate Education how many (a) teachers, (b) teaching standard for these tests. The US Marine Corps have no assistants, (c) special educational needs (SEN) input to these decisions. teachers and (d) SEN assistants were employed in each RAF Leuchars local authority in (i) May 2010 and (ii) the latest period for which figures are available. [83474] Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence pursuant to the answer of 8 November Mr Gibb: The following table provides the headcount 2011, Official Report, column 234W, on RAF of teachers and teaching assistants in publicly funded Leuchars, when he plans to place in the Library a copy schools in England broken down by local authority and of the sustainability appraisal. [86640] region in November 2010, the latest information available. Those employed in local authority maintained special Nick Harvey: A copy of the sustainability appraisal schools are separately identified. report was placed in the Library of the House on 13 December 2011. SEN teachers/assistants have been defined as those (a) working in special schools, (b) having a SEN Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State co-ordinator role in other publicly funded schools or for Defence what alterations will be required to RAF (c) having a learning support assistant for SEN pupils Leuchars to transform it to an operational Army base; role in other publicly funded schools.

Number (headcount) of teachers1, teaching assistants, SEN co-ordinators and SEN assistants in publicly funded schools (including academies) in each local authority2. Year: November 2010. Coverage: Local authorities in England Teaching assistants Teachers who who are learning are SEN support assistants (for of which in co-ordinators of which in SEN pupils) or SEN In all publicly special (except in In all publicly special co-ordinators (except funded schools schools special schools) funded schools schools in special schools)

England 493,430 16,840 2,140 341,170 30,550 33,400

Gateshead 1,920 90 20 870 100 80 Newcastle upon Tyne 2,440 130 20 1,300 140 210 North Tyneside 2,000 110 — 800 110 50 South Tyneside 1,050 60 — 550 50 40 Sunderland 2,800 110 — 1,820 230 70 Hartlepool 940 30 — 800 80 30 Middlesbrough 1,420 70 10 980 150 10 Redcar and Cleveland 1,400 60 10 970 150 60 Stockton on Tees 1,810 70 — 1,170 110 30 Durham 4,630 170 10 2,340 250 450 Darlington 830 40 — 570 50 — Northumberland 3,840 80 — 1,930 160 20 North East 25,100 1,000 70 14,120 1,590 1,040

Cumbria 4,480 80 30 2,340 170 280 East Cheshire 3,380 50 — 1,990 80 — Cheshire West and Chester 3,130 130 — 1,690 240 — Halton 1,150 50 10 630 80 60 Warrington 2,020 60 10 1,240 70 60 Bolton 2,720 100 — 1,880 180 40 869W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 870W

Number (headcount) of teachers1, teaching assistants, SEN co-ordinators and SEN assistants in publicly funded schools (including academies) in each local authority2. Year: November 2010. Coverage: Local authorities in England Teaching assistants Teachers who who are learning are SEN support assistants (for of which in co-ordinators of which in SEN pupils) or SEN In all publicly special (except in In all publicly special co-ordinators (except funded schools schools special schools) funded schools schools in special schools)

Bury 1,640 60 — 1,330 90 480 Manchester 4,270 200 10 2,740 380 40 Oldham 2,270 90 — 1,800 150 10 Rochdale 1,990 90 10 1,790 190 40 Salford 1,430 20 — 160 — — Stockport 2,620 80 30 1,760 130 180 Tameside 2,130 70 — 1,190 110 40 Trafford 2,100 90 — 990 110 30 Wigan 3,150 120 — 3,340 340 10 Lancashire 10,850 390 — 9,610 850 20 Blackburn with Darwen 1,580 60 — 1,420 110 900 Blackpool 1,250 50 — 850 60 50 Knowsley 1,410 100 — 1,080 120 50 Liverpool 4,280 170 20 1,880 230 100 St Helens 1,440 60 — 1,000 100 20 Sefton 2,710 90 50 1,810 150 30 Wirral 3,390 170 10 1,770 260 50 North West 65,370 2,380 200 44,290 4,200 2,490

Kingston upon Hull, City 2,290 90 — 1,940 230 40 of East Riding of Yorkshire 2,970 40 10 2,270 180 60 North East Lincolnshire 1,440 40 20 1,170 160 50 North Lincolnshire 1,430 40 10 1,170 130 10 North Yorkshire 4,840 130 — 3,130 200 — York 1,450 30 — 780 90 10 Barnsley 1,900 40 20 1,460 120 150 Doncaster 2,850 80 10 3,610 190 1,320 Rotherham 2,900 100 — 2,120 230 70 Sheffield 4,610 180 — 3,040 290 30 Bradford 5,560 120 20 4,390 380 310 Calderdale 2,180 50 — 1,540 110 490 Kirklees 4,090 120 — 2,560 190 20 Leeds 6,860 160 — 5,180 280 60 Wakefield 2,980 100 — 2,370 170 720 Yorkshire and the Humber 48,350 1,300 110 36,710 2,940 3,330

Derbyshire 6,770 140 50 4,730 270 310 Derby 2,100 70 — 1,580 140 70 Leicestershire 6,200 130 — 4,410 420 1,810 Leicester 3,110 140 — 2,520 250 60 Rutland 290 10 — 190 10 40 Lincolnshire 6,140 270 20 4,800 500 90 Northamptonshire 6,900 240 90 5,610 520 1,180 Nottinghamshire 7,600 180 40 4,210 340 120 Nottingham 2,590 70 20 1,770 130 30 East Midlands 41,700 1,250 220 29,830 2,580 3,690

Herefordshire 1,460 50 20 1,120 110 60 Worcestershire 5,340 210 — 4,410 390 10 Shropshire 2,980 60 20 2,500 110 370 Telford and Wrekin 1,420 70 — 1,360 110 10 Staffordshire 7,840 310 — 4,870 520 110 Stoke on Trent 2,150 70 — 1,430 110 190 Warwickshire 5,100 200 30 3,430 340 40 Birmingham 11,540 600 100 7,050 790 50 Coventry 3,420 150 — 1,850 190 30 871W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 872W

Number (headcount) of teachers1, teaching assistants, SEN co-ordinators and SEN assistants in publicly funded schools (including academies) in each local authority2. Year: November 2010. Coverage: Local authorities in England Teaching assistants Teachers who who are learning are SEN support assistants (for of which in co-ordinators of which in SEN pupils) or SEN In all publicly special (except in In all publicly special co-ordinators (except funded schools schools special schools) funded schools schools in special schools)

Dudley 3,020 100 — 2,780 190 20 Sandwell 3,260 60 10 2,490 160 340 Solihull 2,410 90 — 1,450 140 20 Walsall 2,740 100 10 2,040 160 120 Wolverhampton 2,580 120 — 1,390 180 60 West Midlands 55,230 2,190 190 38,150 3,490 1,420

Cambridgeshire 4,940 150 30 4,060 340 30 Peterborough 1,760 60 10 1,570 120 90 Norfolk 7,120 170 100 6,320 410 1,010 Suffolk 7,000 170 10 4,810 330 640 Bedford borough 1,780 50 10 1,100 120 80 Central Bedfordshire 3,110 90 20 1,710 160 180 Luton 2,100 50 10 1,850 150 120 Essex 12,170 280 60 9,000 670 1,990 Southend on Sea 1,960 80 — 1,200 150 260 Thurrock 1,300 60 10 940 90 120 Hertfordshire 12,930 440 70 7,170 600 840 East of England 56,160 1,620 320 39,720 3,130 5,360

Camden 1,610 50 10 1,020 110 90 City of London 20 — — 20 — — Hackney 1,920 60 10 1,210 80 180 Hammersmith and Fulham 1,300 60 10 630 100 90 Haringey 2,350 90 10 1,380 100 250 Islington 1,600 60 10 1,050 110 20 Kensington and Chelsea 790 20 — 540 40 80 Lambeth 2,340 70 20 1,630 120 140 Lewisham 2,050 110 10 1,450 90 100 Newham 3,100 30 10 2,220 70 120 Southwark 2,490 90 20 1,790 140 230 Tower Hamlets 3,030 100 20 2,190 190 120 Wandsworth 2,310 150 10 1,790 350 250 Westminster 1,540 30 10 850 40 200 Inner London 26,460 930 130 17,750 1,540 1,860

Barking and Dagenham 2,170 50 10 1,090 80 300 Barnet 3,720 90 30 2,240 170 170 Bexley 2,370 70 — 1,480 150 10 Brent 2,850 90 20 1,490 150 270 Bromley 2,930 100 10 1,950 170 350 Croydon 3,440 110 20 2,260 180 180 Ealing 2,950 110 20 1,610 240 220 Enfield 3,420 100 30 2,140 140 270 Greenwich 2,600 110 10 2,060 220 360 Harrow 2,030 80 20 1,280 80 340 Havering 2,390 50 10 1,680 100 220 Hillingdon 2,890 110 10 1,950 180 300 Hounslow 2,410 80 10 1,100 110 70 Kingston upon Thames 1,590 50 10 850 100 80 Merton 1,530 50 — 960 60 220 Redbridge 3,190 140 30 1,690 190 430 Richmond upon Thames 1,280 30 10 740 40 160 Sutton 2,120 60 20 1,080 60 190 Waltham Forest 2,430 170 10 1,470 230 240 Outer London 48,300 1,630 270 29,110 2,650 4,380 873W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 874W

Number (headcount) of teachers1, teaching assistants, SEN co-ordinators and SEN assistants in publicly funded schools (including academies) in each local authority2. Year: November 2010. Coverage: Local authorities in England Teaching assistants Teachers who who are learning are SEN support assistants (for of which in co-ordinators of which in SEN pupils) or SEN In all publicly special (except in In all publicly special co-ordinators (except funded schools schools special schools) funded schools schools in special schools)

London 74,750 2,560 410 46,860 4,190 6,240

Bracknell Forest 880 30 10 670 50 100 Windsor and Maidenhead 1,300 20 10 940 90 70 West Berkshire 1,800 70 10 1,420 100 190 Reading 1,270 40 10 930 90 60 Slough 1,650 90 10 1,060 90 150 Wokingham 1,620 60 10 1,280 90 260 Buckinghamshire 5,570 200 30 3,260 340 820 Milton Keynes 2,740 140 10 2,070 210 230 East Sussex 4,200 190 10 3,310 290 170 Brighton and Hove 2,200 140 — 1,590 210 70 Hampshire 10,860 360 160 7,000 720 840 Portsmouth 1,580 120 — 1,340 220 40 Southampton 1,790 70 10 1,380 130 320 Isle of Wight 1,220 40 — 1,020 130 200 Kent 14,880 580 80 10,550 1,300 470 Medway 2,540 100 30 1,820 170 160 Oxfordshire 5,960 180 20 4,720 370 450 Surrey 9,180 380 70 7,160 630 1,180 West Sussex 7,380 250 20 4,760 350 540 South East 78,620 3,080 480 56,270 5,560 6,290

Isles of Scilly 40 — — 30 — — Bath and North East 1,770 70 10 1,090 130 120 Somerset Bristol, City of 3,370 160 20 1,940 260 560 North Somerset 1,840 40 — 1,130 80 350 South Gloucestershire 2,620 60 10 1,430 90 60 Cornwall 4,840 70 20 4,230 170 110 Devon 6,620 160 10 5,220 340 380 Plymouth 2,510 120 — 2,110 220 30 Torbay 1,260 70 10 870 100 40 Dorset 3,700 110 20 2,640 220 70 Poole 1,160 50 — 810 100 30 Bournemouth 1,300 50 — 860 100 10 Gloucestershire 6,260 220 20 3,930 480 390 Somerset 4,550 90 10 4,150 260 1,240 Wiltshire 4,410 120 10 3,140 180 100 Swindon 1,900 100 10 1,680 170 30 South West 48,150 1,490 140 35,210 2,880 3,540 1 Includes qualified and unqualified teachers but excludes occasional teachers. 2 Figures are based on completed School Workforce Census returns. Notes: 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. 2. ‘—’ = nil or negligible. 3. Totals may not appear equal to the sum of the component parts because of rounding. Source: School Workforce Census (November 2010)

PRIME MINISTER clients of Bell Pottinger Group on the recommendation of that Group since May 2010; on what dates any such Bell Pottinger meetings took place; and what was discussed. [86774] The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Member to the Mr Watson: To ask the Prime Minister whether his answer I gave on 22 November 2011, Official Report, (a) Chief of Staff and (b) Director of Strategy has column 234W, to the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John met representatives of (i) Bell Pottinger Group and (ii) Mann). 875W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 876W

EU Action representatives to discuss CCS. This includes discussions about funding and we have been clear that £1 billion is Ms Ritchie: To ask the Prime Minister (1) what available to support CCS projects. discussions he had with the Office of First and Deputy First Minister in Northern Ireland on the most recent Departmental Manpower European Council meeting; [86709] (2) what assessment he has made of the effect on Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland of the outcome of the most recent Energy and Climate Change what support staff (a) he European Council meeting. [86710] and (b) his special advisers employ other than the staff in his private office. [86609] The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave on 12 December 2011, Official Report, Gregory Barker: None. column 529, to the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds). Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what the (a) salary grade Ministerial Policy Advisers and (b) title is of each member of staff in his private office who is (A) a civil servant, (B) a special adviser Alun Michael: To ask the Prime Minister what the and (C) another political appointee. [86611] (a) name and (b) payscale is of each special adviser appointed since 14 October 2011. [86855] Gregory Barker: Please see following table showing details of staffing in the Secretary of State for Energy The Prime Minister: An updated list of special advisers, and Climate Change’s private office. All staff are civil and their pay bands, is published quarterly. This is servants and there are no other political appointees. available on the Cabinet Office website: http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/special- Grade Title Number adviser-data-releases Senior Civil Servant, Principal Private Secretary 1 PB1 to Secretary of State Special Adviser, PB2 Special Adviser to Secretary 2 of State ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Grade 6 Deputy Principal Private 1 Energy Performance Certificates Secretary to Secretary of State Fast stream Private Secretary to Secretary 3 Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for of State Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made HEO Diary Manager to Secretary 1 of the number of private rented sector accommodation of State units in energy performance certificate bands (a) E, Grade 7 Speech Writer to Secretary 1 (b) F and (c) G in the London borough of Brent. of State [86478] Salary information is already published. Please see Andrew Stunell: I have been asked to reply. following links. http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/accesstoinform/ The English Housing Survey does not enable an about_decc/about_decc.aspx estimate to be made at local authority level. However, http://lis/decc/human-resources/handbook/pay-awards.html the survey does provide a national estimate of the numbers of privately rented accommodation in each http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/special- energy performance certificate band. The national estimate adviser-data-releases is included in the latest published English Housing Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Survey Tables (Housing Stock Summary Statistics Energy and Climate Change how many staff in his Table 7.1): private office (a) previously worked for a political http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/statistics/xls/ party and (b) are on secondment. [86612] 1937429.xls Carbon Sequestration Gregory Barker: None.

Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what discussions he had Energy and Climate Change how many staff in the with representatives of the carbon capture and storage private office of the (a) Minister of State for Climate industry before the announcement by the Chief Change and (b) Minister of State for Energy are on Secretary to the Treasury on carbon capture and secondment. [86613] storage funding in this Parliament. [85901] Gregory Barker: None. Charles Hendry [holding answer 12 December 2011]: The Chief Secretary to the Treasury, the right hon. Electricity Generation Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey (Danny Alexander), has not made an announcement on Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for CCS funding in this Parliament. My colleagues and I, at Energy and Climate Change (1) pursuant to the answer ministerial and official level, meet regularly with industry to the hon. Member for Ipswich, of 5 December 2011, 877W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 878W

Official Report, column 40W, on electricity generation, Solar Power: Feed-in Tariffs what estimate his Department has made of the costs of moving to a pooled system of retail energy sales; and Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for what cost-benefit analysis he has undertaken of such a Energy and Climate Change what his Department’s move; [86672] most recent estimate is of the cost of extending the (2) what assessment he has made of the effect on eligibility date for the reduction in tariff level for solar competition in the retail energy sector of moving to a PV from 12 December 2011 to 31 March 2012. [85780] pooled system of retail energy sales; [86673] (3) what discussions his Department has had with Gregory Barker: The impact assessment published small retail energy suppliers on the effect on their alongside the consultation on feed-in tariffs for solar business model of moving to a pooled system of retail PV estimated the range of costs to consumers with a energy sales. [86671] reference date of 12 December 2011 (option 2) and a reference date of 1 April 2012 (option 3). Under the central scenario we estimated that the additional costs Charles Hendry [holding answer 14 December 2011]: associated with a reference date of 1 April would be The UK operated under a pool system prior to privatisation, approximately £60 million per year (2011 prices, discounted) thereafter we moved to a system of bilateral contracting over the spending review period. (NETA), in common with most other European counties. However, a reversion to a pool system would be costly, We have undertaken an initial update of the estimates disruptive and would take years to implement. As an in the impact assessment to take account of higher than illustration, estimated costs in 2004 of the transition projected uptake in October 2011. Our preliminary from the pool to NETA were in the region of £700 update suggests that under the central scenario the million. additional costs associated with a 1 April reference date would be around £120-140 million per year (2011 prices, There are alternative approaches to improving energy discounted) over the spending review period. These market competition. Ofgem, are leading work aimed at estimates should be treated as preliminary, as full updated increasing market liquidity in order to ensure that small estimates will be published in the final impact assessment and independent suppliers and generators have fair supporting the Government’s response to the consultation. access to the market. A pool would not necessarily solve the problems facing smaller market participant—in Warm Front Scheme particular a pool would not in itself improve forward market liquidity. Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many households in (a) England, (b) each local authority area and (c) Nuclear Power: Safety each parliamentary constituency received assistance under the Warm Front scheme (i) in each of the last 10 Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy years, (ii) between July 2010 and December 2010 and and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the (iii) since April 2011; and what the average level of costs to (a) his Department and (b) operators of civil grant provided under the scheme was in each such nuclear installations resulting from the implementation period. [86523] of the recommendations in the report on implications for the UK nuclear industry of the Japanese Gregory Barker: This information is not held centrally earthquake and tsunami by HM Chief Inspector of and can be provided only at disproportionate cost. Nuclear Installations. [85787] Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many households Charles Hendry: Nuclear safety is a top priority and received assistance under the Warm Front scheme in as such any associated costs to the Department will be England in each month of the last 10 years; and what borne out of the overall departmental budget. the average level of grant provided under the scheme The Government are not able to comment on any was in each such month. [86524] associated costs to the nuclear operating companies, as such costs are part of the overall and ongoing costs of Gregory Barker: I will be placing a copy of the ensuring the safe operation of nuclear facilities. information you requested in the Libraries of the House. Warm Homes and Energy Conservation Act 2000 Renewable Energy: Wales Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what discussions he has had with Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for ministerial colleagues on the operation of the Warm Energy and Climate Change what recent discussions he Homes and Energy Conservation Act 2000 since July has had on renewable energy development in Wales. 2010; and if he will make a statement. [R] [84458] [86247] Gregory Barker: I discuss fuel poverty issues with Charles Hendry: The Secretary of State for Energy ministerial colleagues on a regular basis. and Climate Change, the right hon. Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne), has regular discussions with ministerial Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy colleagues across the UK on renewable energy issues, and Climate Change what recent discussions (a) he, including those in Wales. (b) Ministers in his Department and (c) officials in his 879W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 880W

Department have had with (i) HM Treasury and (ii) Bristol Youth Court other ministerial colleagues on the operation of the Bromley Warm Homes and Energy Conservation Act 2000; and Bury St Edmunds if he will make a statement. [R] [84485] Caernarfon Camberwell Green Gregory Barker [holding answer 5 December 2011]: Ministerial colleagues, officials and I regularly meet Cambridge with other Government Departments to discuss fuel Cardiff poverty issues. Cheltenham City of Westminster Colchester JUSTICE Coventry Crewe Care Homes: Hampshire Croydon Ealing Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice East Lancashire Magistrates (Blackburn) how many care homes in (a) Hampshire and (b) Enfield Southampton have been subject to (i) successful and Feltham (ii) unsuccessful prosecutions in the last two years. Greenwich [86596] Grimsby Mr Blunt: The Ministry of Justice Court Proceedings Halton Database holds information on offences provided by Haringey the statutes under which proceedings are brought but Harlow not all the circumstances of each case. It is not possible Harwich to identify from these centrally held data whether a care Hatfield home was proceeded against or found guilty. Havering Chief Coroner: Public Appointments Hemel Hempstead Hendon Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Hertford Justice whether his Department has contacted any High Wycombe potential candidates for the role of Chief Coroner. Highbury Corner [86773] Lancaster Mr Djanogly: The Ministry of Justice has not contacted Leeds any potential candidates for the role of Chief Coroner. Liverpool Community Justice centre Under Schedule 8 to the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 Liverpool it is for the Lord Chief Justice to appoint the Chief Luton Coroner, following consultation with the Lord Chancellor Macclesfield and Secretary of State for Justice, my right hon. and Maidenhead learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke). Maidstone Civil Disorder Manchester City Medway Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Milton Keynes which courts dealt with cases concerning persons Nottingham suspected of criminal involvement during the public Oxford disorder of August 2011. [86308] Reading Redbridge Mr Djanogly: To date public disorder cases have been Richmond heard at 79 magistrates courts and 17 Crown courts, a list of which follows. Salford Courts that have heard cases related to the public disorder Slough from 6-9 August 2011, data as at 7 December 2011. Solihull Magistrates courts South Western Balham Southampton Banbury Southend Barking St Albans Basildon Stevenage Bexley Stratford Birmingham Stroud Brent Sunderland Brighton Thames Bristol Tower Bridge 881W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 882W

Uxbridge delayed; and when he expects to publish the Vale Royal Government’s response. [86727] Wakefield Walsall Mr Djanogly: I refer the hon. Member to my previous answer given on 6 December 2011, Official Report, Waltham Forest column 190W.The Government expect the consultation Warley response to be published in the new year. The response Welshpool was initially scheduled for publication in October but West London this was postponed due to ongoing discussions within Wimbledon Government. Wolverhampton Wrexham Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice which organisations his Department had Crown court discussions with on the consultation on solving Inner London CC disputes in the county courts (a) before and (b) after Wood Green CC the consultation closed; and how many submissions to Manchester CC the consultation were received. [86728] Birmingham CC Wolverhampton CC Mr Djanogly: I refer the hon. Member to my previous Nottingham CC answer given on 6 December 2011, Official Report, column 190W. The Department received 319 responses Caernarfon CC to the consultation. The Department has engaged in Newcastle CC discussions with the following organisations during the Preston CC course of this year: Reading CC Association of British Insurers Chester CC Civil Mediation Council Mold CC Forum of Insurance Lawyers St Albans CC Association of Personal Injury Lawyers Coventry CC Motor Accident Solicitors Society Colchester CC The Law Society Great Grimsby CC The British Bankers Association Cardiff CC Citizens Advice Note: Her Majesties’ Association of District Judges This list has been compiled from manual returns from the courts R3 (Association of Business Recovery Professionals) as reported to Justice Statistics Analytical Service. Civil Courts Users Association Office of Fair Trade Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what estimate he has made of the costs to the courts of Shergroup processing cases concerning people involved in the The Land Registry public disorder of August 2011. [86309] Centre for Peaceful Solutions & Brent Mediation Centre Centre for Effective Dispute Resolution Mr Djanogly: These cases have been mainly Law Works Mediation accommodated within the normal sittings of the magistrates National Health Service Litigation Authority and Crown courts with extra cost primarily attributed Medical Protection Society to the operating of some 24 hour courts in the first days Weightmans Solicitors of the disorder and having other courts on stand-by at the time of the public disorder. The most recent assessment of this marginal cost to Her Majesty’s Courts and Departmental Pay Tribunals Service is £100,000. We are not able to assign an accurate cost to processing Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice these cases as cases are still progressing through the whether any senior staff in (a) his Department and (b) courts and there are likely to be large differences in its executive agencies and non-departmental public costs of individual cases in terms of numbers and bodies are paid by means of payments to a limited lengths of hearings. For example there may be one company in lieu of a salary; and if he will publish his where a guilty plea was entered and the offender sentenced policy on such payments. [85074] at the first hearing in the magistrates court or a case that proceeds to trial before a jury in the Crown court. Mr Kenneth Clarke: The Ministry of Justice uses external resources in order to meet skills, capacity and capability shortages. Contractors and interims can be County Courts deployed in temporary senior management positions when it has been established that there is no suitable Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for internal resource available. When doing so the Ministry Justice when he had expected to publish the ensures that it receives value for money and complies Government’s response to the consultation on solving with procurement legislation, HM Treasury’s rules and disputes in the county courts; for what reasons Cabinet Office Efficiency and Reform Group (ERG) publication of the Government’s response has been requirements. 883W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 884W

The process for procurement of contractors and interims Prisoners’ Transfers is via a single managed service provider, Capita Resourcing Limited. Payments are made to this service provider. All resource requests are raised directly with Capita via Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for their online recruitment system called ‘TalentLink’. Capita Justice which companies hold contracts with (a) his then act as the single point of contact for the end to end Department and (b) the National Offender process for handling the contractor procurement. In Management Service for escorting prisoners; and how addition, Capita manage all contractual and second tier much each such company has received from his supplier relationships, thus achieving cost savings and Department in each of the last three years. [86602] time-efficiencies. Mr Kenneth Clarke: All the National Offender Within the Ministry of Justice there are four senior Management Service (NOMS) requirements for escorting managers (senior civil servants) engaged on an interim prisoners are now delivered through the Prison Escort basis through Capita. Within its executive agencies and and Custody Services (PECS) contracts. non-departmental public bodies, there is currently one senior manager engaged on an interim basis through The latest PECS contracts were awarded in March Capita. 2011 by the MoJ to Serco Wincanton and GEOAmey PECS Ltd. Prior to 29 August 2011 NOMS did receive Market Testing Evaluation Panels a separate Inter Prison Transfer (IPT) service which was provided nationally by G4S Care and Justice as well. As part of the improvements and efficiencies introduced by Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for the latest PECS contracts IPT was integrated in to a Justice (1) what his policy is on the level of profit single PECS service requirement. Consequently, the margin market testing evaluation panels in his following data include reference to both PECS and IPT. Department should allow for private bidders; [86515] All the financial information requested is provided in (2) whether his Department’s market testing the following table, with the new PECS contracts is evaluation panels seek information on the profit shown separately, and is based on the MoJ financial margins anticipated by private bidders. [86516] year which runs from April to March each year.

Financial Contract Mr Kenneth Clarke: In running offender services year Service period Service Company spend (£) competitions, evaluation panels seek to ensure that bids from potential providers from all sectors will deliver the 2011-12 29 August 2011 to PECS GEOAmey 27,925,624 standards of safety, decency and security set out in the 30 November 2011 (new) PECS Ltd 2011-12 29 August 2011 to PECS Serco 7,485,730 relevant NOMS specifications for that service. Panels 30 November 2011 (new) Wincanton also evaluate the cost effectiveness and operational viability 2011-12 1 April 2011 to 28 PECS Serco 20,366,242 of bids in order to ensure that the desired outcomes can August 2011 be delivered. Bidders were requested for profit as a 2011-12 1 April 2011 to 28 IPT and G4S (inc. 31,098,423 percentage of their total operating cost for the purposes August 2011 PECS IPT) of the Prisons Competition phase l awarded in March 2011-12 1 April 2011 to 28 PECS Reliance 15,804,567 2010. August 2011 2010-11 1 April 2010 to 31 PECS Serco 49,720,339 March 2011 Members: Correspondence 2010-11 1 April 2010 to 31 IPT and G4S (inc. 74,947,549 March 2011 PECS IPT) 2010-11 1 April 2010 to 31 PECS Reliance 38,800,074 Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for March 2011 Justice when he plans to answer the letter from the 2009-10 1 April 2009 to 31 PECS Serco 48,527,479 right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton of 26 March 2010 2009-10 1 April 2009 to 31 IPT and G4S (inc. 74,126,719 October 2011 with regard to Mrs M Fallows. [85148] March 2010 PECS IPT) 2009-10 1 April 2009 to 31 PECS Reliance 38,758,920 Mr Kenneth Clarke: I have now replied. March 2010 2008-09 1 April 2008 to 31 PECS Serco 45,774,178 March 2009 Personal Injury 2008-09 1 April 2008 to 31 IPT and G4S (inc. 72,528,513 March 2009 PECS IPT) 2008-09 1 April 2008 to 31 PECS Reliance 39,936,130 Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for March 2009 Justice for what reasons the round table consultation meeting on matters relating to personal injury was Prisons: Public Sector postponed; and when he expects the round table to be held. [86711] John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Djanogly: I refer the hon. Member to my previous Justice for what reasons the public sector bid to operate answer given on 6 December 2011, Official Report, HM Prison Featherstone 2 was unsuccessful. [86289] column 194W.The roundtable discussion was postponed as the publication of the Government’s response to Mr Kenneth Clarke: The winning bidder (G4S Care ‘Solving Disputes in the County Courts’ has been delayed. and Justice Services (UK) Limited) submitted a more The meeting will be rescheduled for the new year once economically advantageous bid overall than the bid the consultation response has been published. submitted by the public sector. In particular, the winning 885W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 886W bidder scored higher overall in relation to non-price HOME DEPARTMENT criteria, and submitted a lower priced bid over the duration of the contract. Asylum Probation Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what estimate she has made of the Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State backlog of cases in the UK Border Agency, broken for Justice what steps he is taking to ensure that his down by case type and the number of cases in each forthcoming proposals for reform of the probation category. [79780] service do not place the public at risk. [86623] Damian Green: The current number of work in progress Mr Blunt: The first stage of our work to look at the cases in the UK Border Agency is shown as follows: future shape of probation services in England and Wales is nearing completion. Throughout our work Number safeguarding public protection has been one of the key criteria when considering any possible reforms. Temporary Migration1, 5, 6 42,800 We expect to announce our emerging findings early Permanent Migration1, 5, 6 53,000 in the new year and will then consult widely. Asylum2, 5 37,900 Other3, 4, 5, 6 16,400 Work Capability Assessment: Appeals Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for The number of application over the last six months Justice what estimate he has made of the potential cost were: to the public purse of the introduction of a six day week for HM Courts and Tribunals Service to hear Number appeals on decisions of the work capability assessment. Temporary Migration5, 6 105,700 [86847] Permanent Migration5, 6 147,300 Mr Djanogly:: Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Asylum5, 7 9,900 Service (HMCTS) hears appeals against Department 1 Figures were produced on 4 November 2011. for Work and Pensions decisions on entitlement to 2 Asylum cases also known as the asylum WiP was published on the employment and support allowance (ESA) (decisions in HM Government website in August 2011 http://data.gov.uk/dataset/asylum-performance-framework which the work capability assessment is a key factor) 3 Figures were produced on 7 November 2011. rather than appeals against work capability assessment 4 Includes cases from case assurance and audit unit (CAAU). decisions themselves. 5 All figures rounded to the nearest hundred. Saturday sittings are one of a number of measures 6 With the exception of Asylum all figures quoted are management information which has been subject to internal quality checks. taken to increase the capacity of the Social Security and 7 Asylum application figures are management information which has Child Support (SSCS) Tribunal in response to the significant been subject to internal quality checks. and unforecast increase in appeals. Appellants are asked No ’Other’ cases were received within the last six whether they are willing to attend a hearing on a months. Saturday before their case is listed and the hearing will proceed exactly as it would on a weekday. Civil Disorder Saturday sittings hear a mixture of case types which prevents analysis specifically for ESA cases. The use of Malcolm Wicks: To ask the Secretary of State for the Saturday sittings is at the discretion of local managers Home Department how many claims for compensation and judiciary and therefore a specific budget has not under the Riot (Damages) Act 1886 arising from the been set aside for it. Between April and October 2011 civil disorder of August 2011 have been settled in each 379 sessions were held on a Saturday, which disposed of borough in Greater London; and what the total 1,848 cases. Based on the average cost of an SSCS amount of compensation was in each case, at the latest appeal in 2010-11 of £239 the estimated total cost of date for which figures are available. [85573] these sittings is £0.4 million, although the actual cost of an appeal may be slightly higher on a Saturday as some Nick Herbert: The Home Office does not hold the administrative staff involved will receive overtime payments. detail on the number or value of claims made specifically by individual boroughs of the Metropolitan Police Service. Total disposals by the SSCS Tribunal in the period between April and October 2011 were 21% up on the Crime: Closed Circuit Television same period in 2010, and 66% higher than in the same seven months in 2009. In each of the last 12 months Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for more ESA appeals have been disposed of than were the Home Department what representations she has received. received from police authorities on the decision by Written Questions: Government Responses some local authorities to cease or reduce funding for the operation of CCTV; and what assessment her Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for Department has made of any potential effect on the Justice when he expects to provide a substantive reply prevention and detection of crime. [86222] to Question 84642 tabled on 29 November 2011 for named day answer on 5 December 2011. [86706] James Brokenshire: No such representations have been received. The provision and deployment of CCTV by Mr Djanogly: I have now replied to the hon. Member’s local authorities is a matter for them to assess in the question. light of local need and resources available. 887W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 888W

Criminal Investigations: Care Homes Detainees: Children

Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for the Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many care homes in (a) Home Department how many children under 16 years Hampshire and (b) Southampton have been subject to are being held in detention for immigration purposes; police investigations in the last two years. [86597] and how many were being held in (a) May 2011, (b) January 2011 and (c) June 2010. [77052] Nick Herbert: The information requested is not collected centrally. Damian Green: The latest published management information for the number of children under 16 years of age entering detention, held solely under Immigration Departmental Manpower Act powers in immigration removal centres, short term holding facilities and pre departure accommodation at Mrs Ellman: To ask the Secretary of State for the Cedars is six in October 2011; seven in May 2011; two in Home Department how many people were employed in January 2011 and 26 in June 2010. the Liverpool offices of the (a) Criminal Records This information is a subset of published data that Bureau, (b) Identity and Passport Service and (c) corresponds closest to the dates requested. These figures United Kingdom Border Agency in 2010; and how exclude those detained in police cells, Prison Service many such people she expect to employ in 2015. establishments and short-term holding rooms at ports [83709] and airports (for less than 24 hours), those recorded as detained under both criminal and immigration powers Damian Green: Table 1 following includes workforce and their dependants. They may include age disputed figures for 2010 (as at 31 December 2010) using Office cases. Cedars pre departure accommodation for families for National Statistics guidelines for workforce management opened on 17 August 2011. reporting. Information on numbers of children entering detention Table 1: People employed in Liverpool on 31 December 2010 is published monthly and is available from the Home Office Science, Research and Statistics web pages at: Department HC FTE HC http://homeoffice.gov.uk/science-research/research-statistics/ Criminal Records 605.13 648 migration/migration-statistics1/ Bureau A copy of the latest month has been placed in the Identity and 363.57 398 Passport Service Library of the House. November 2011 figures will be United Kingdom 1,710.88 1,853 available on 29 December 2011. Border Agency Information on children detained under immigration Grand total 2,679.57 2,899 Act powers, on any single day, is only published for the Note: last day of each quarter. This information is available Includes all permanent and paid civil servants as per ONS reporting from the same web site and from the Library of the guidelines. House. Figures for those detained on 30 September Extract Date: 31 December 2010 2011 have been published on 24 November 2011. Source: Data View, the Home Office’s single source of monthly Human Resources data. Drugs Home Office workforce plans are designed to be flexible to best support evolving business priorities John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for the throughout the spending review period and to be affordable Home Department what her Department’s policy is on within the Home Office’s spending review settlement. It mandatory drugs testing for its staff. [86618] is not possible to forecast the number of people who will be employed in Liverpool in Criminal Records Damian Green: The Home Office does not have Bureau, Identity and Passport Service and United Kingdom mandatory drug testing arrangements in place for its Border Agency in 2015, as this falls into the next staff. spending review period and workforce plans have not yet been drawn-up. Extradition: Russia Departmental Responsibilities Mr David: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether she has any plans to review Home Department at how many events organised by the operation of extradition arrangements between the (a) charities, (b) other civil society groups, (c) UK and Russia. [86550] businesses and (d) lobbying organisations Ministers and senior officials in her Department have given Damian Green: The UK keeps its extradition relations speeches in each month since May 2010; and if she will with other countries under constant review. As the UK make a statement. [77342] and Russia are both members of the Council of Europe, extradition between our two countries is governed by Damian Green: This information is not held centrally the 1957 Council of Europe Convention on Extradition. and could be collated only at disproportionate cost. There are currently no plans to review this Convention. 889W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 890W

Forensic Science 11 October 2011 meeting Attendees: Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Damian Green MP, Minister for Immigration (Chair) for the Home Department if she considers crime scene investigators to be front line staff. [86181] Lord Wallace of Tankerness, Advocate General for Scotland (representing Ministry of Justice) Nick Herbert: In its report ″Demanding Times″ published Baroness Hanham, Department of Communities and Local in March 2011, Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary Government (HMIC) defined and categorised police roles. The report Jeremy Browne, FCO can be found at: David Jones, Wales Office www.hmic.gov.uk Stephen O’Brien, Parliamentary Undersecretary of State for international Development Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Apologies: for the Home Department if she will take steps to safeguard the services provided by crime scene Edward Gamier, Solicitor General1 investigators; and if she will make a statement. [86182] Tim Loughton, Department for Education1 Crispin Blunt, Ministry of Justice Damian Green: Decisions about the deployment of police resources, including crime scene investigators, are Anne Milton MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Public Health a matter for chief constables to take locally in conjunction with their police authority and, from November 2012, Michael Moore, Scotland Office their police and crime commissioner. Baroness Wilcox, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for BIS Human Trafficking Ministerial Group Lord Freud, Department for Work and Pensions Kenny MacAskill MSP, Cabinet Secretary for Justice, Scottish Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for the Government1 Home Department on what dates the Inter- David Ford MLA, Northern Ireland Executive1 Departmental Ministerial Group on human trafficking Carl Sargeant, Welsh Assembly Government1 has met since May 2010; who its members are; and which members attended each such meeting. [86446] Lynne Featherstone, Government Equalities Office (GEO) 1 Indicates official-level deputies present at the meeting Damian Green: The Inter-Departmental Ministerial Group on human trafficking met on 17 February 2011 and 11 October 2011. A list of members and attendees Immigrants: Citizenship for each meeting is provided in the following list: Inter-Departmental Ministerial Group (IDMG) on human Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for the trafficking—ministerial-level meeting attendees and non- Home Department how many immigrants to the UK attending members have successfully applied for UK citizenship in each of 17 February 2011 meeting: the last 10 years; and if she will make a statement. Attendees: [86561] Damian Green MP, Minister for Immigration (Chair) Lynne Featherstone MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of Damian Green: The available statistics are given in the State for Equalities and Criminal Information following table. It is not possible to identify separately Edward Gamier MP, Solicitor General grants of British citizenship made to migrants as Crispin Blunt MP, Minister for Justice opposed to those that are UK born within the published Kenny MacAskill MSP, Cabinet Secretary for Justice, Scottish data. Government (by video link) The number of applications for and grants of British Apologies: citizenship has risen significantly since the mid-1990s. Anne Milton MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for This increase is likely, in part, to reflect increased grants Public Health1 of settlement over the same period to non-European Jeremy Browne MP, Minister of State, FCO1 economic area nationals—after a period of residence those granted settlement become eligible to apply for Tim Loughton MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State citizenship. for Children and Families Baroness Hanham, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State The latest Home Office immigration statistics on for Communities persons granted British citizenship, from which the data Baroness Wilcox, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for in this reply are derived, are given in table ‘cz.02’ of the BIS statistical release ‘Immigration Statistics July-September 2011’. This publication is available from the Library of Lord Freud, Minister for Welfare Reform the House and from the Home Office Science web site David Ford MLA, Northern Ireland Executive1 at: Gwenda Thomas AM, Welsh Assembly Government http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research- Stephen O’Brien, Parliamentary Undersecretary of State for statistics/research-statistics/immigration-asylum-research/ International Development1 immigration-q3-2011/ 891W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 892W

British citizenship grants by general category Registration of minor children related to a British Naturalisation based Naturalisation based citizen on a Registration on other All grants on residence on marriage discretionary basis grounds

2001 90,282 39,498 28,618 21,239 927 2002 120,121 57,595 34,414 26,319 1,793 2003 130,535 54,967 36,757 35,344 3,467 2004 148,273 64,103 40,406 38,415 5,349 2005 161,699 77,334 34,496 41,641 8,228 2006 154,018 77,080 27,587 42,447 6,904 2007 164,637 87,785 30,423 40,534 5,895 2008 129,377 65,713 29,075 30,832 3,757 2009 203,789 99,474 52,627 47,814 3,874 2010 195,046 93,681 47,028 48,611 5,726 Notes: 1. Data for 2010 are provisional figures. 2. Data presented relate to number of persons. Cases dealt with in the United Kingdom. 3. Grants: A positive outcome of an application for British citizenship prior to attending a citizenship ceremony by applicants over 18 years of age. 4. ‘Decisions taken to grant’ from November 2001 include grants of British citizenship in the Channel Islands and Isle of Man. 5. Marriage includes civil partnership introduced from 5 December 2005. 6. Minor children: children under 18 years of age. 7. Other includes British Overseas Territories citizens from Gibraltar registered as British citizens under s.5 of the British Nationality Act 1981. Source: Home Office, Migration Statistics.

Immigrants: Detainees The following table sets out the reasons why the 74 individuals detained for more than 24 months referred to in the Immigration Statistics April to June 2011 had Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for the not been removed from the UK. As the table shows, five Home Department with reference to the detention data of the individuals have now been removed from the tables Immigration Statistics April-June 2011 table UK. This information is taken from internal management dt.07.q, whether any of the 74 individuals detained for information and is subject to change. more than 24 months (1) is appealing against (a) their detention and (b) their removal from the UK on Barriers to removal Number of individuals human rights grounds; [82104] Travel document 39 (2) has an appeal case against their (a) detention Appeals 6 and (b) removal from the UK lodged with (i) a domestic court and (ii) the European Court of Human Children issues 1 Rights. [82105] Country situation 1 Nationality not confirmed 1 Judicial review 15 Damian Green: The following table sets out the total length of stay in the UK of the 74 individuals detained Awaiting removal: multiple barriers 4 for more than 24 months referred to in the Immigration Rule 391 2 Statistics April to June 2011. Removed 5 1 This is a request to the European court of human rights (under rule Length of time (in years) in the UK 39) that an applicant should not be removed from the UK. based on first application raised Number of individuals

37Of the 74 individuals detained for more than 24 months 47referred to in the Immigration Statistics April to June 5132011, 53 lodged an appeal against their deportation. In 65addition to this: 7629 individuals submitted a judicial review (JR) against unlawful 810detention. 97 10 4 five submitted a JR on HR grounds. 11 5 five submitted a JR against unlawful detention and on HR 12 3 grounds. 13 1 14 1 To determine in which court those of the 74 individuals 15 1 detained for more than 24 months referred to in the 17 2 Immigration Statistics April to June 2011 have lodged 18 1 an appeal against detention or removal would require the examination of individual case files which would 20 1 incur a disproportionate cost. 893W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 894W

Immigration Controls Members: Correspondence

Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Sir John Stanley: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many people she expected to Home Department when she plans to reply to the enter the UK through ports operating the pilot scheme letters from the right hon. Member for Tonbridge and of reduced checks at border control points during the Malling dated 26 January, 17 May and 8 July 2011 pilot scheme. [81094] regarding correspondence received from Mr F. G. Thurygill. [86372] Damian Green: There were 20.2 million passenger James Brokenshire: A response was sent on 15 December arrivals to the United Kingdom during the first quarter 2011. (January to March) of 2011 of which 2.4 million were non-EEA nationals, 11.2 million were British citizens Police and 6.5 million were from other EEA countries and Switzerland. These figures are numbers of journeys and Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for the include passengers in transit who do not pass through Home Department which police forces have opted to immigration controls. use (a) trauma risk management and (b) applied Further information relating to the second quarter suicide intervention skills training; and if she will make (April to June) of 2011 was published on 24 November a statement. [86459] 2011 in the Home Office Science publication, ‘Immigration Statistics July to September 2011’, and the third quarter Nick Herbert: This information is not held centrally. will be published on 23 February 2012. These data will be available from the Library of the House and from Police: Accountability the Home Office Science website at: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research- Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for the statistics/research-statistics/immigration-asylum-research/ Home Department what estimate she has made of the cost of introducing police commissioners in Wales; and Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for the how much of such costs is attributable to (a) Home Department what steps she is taking to reform commissioners’ pay, (b) staffing costs and (c) other the sponsorship rules for family migration. [84816] costs. [85994] Nick Herbert: I have previously laid before Parliament Damian Green: The family migration consultation the recommendations of the Senior Salaries Review closed on 6 October 2011. It proposed new measures to Body in respect of the salaries for police and crime tackle abuse, promote integration and reduce burdens commissioners (PCCs), including the PCCs of the four on the taxpayer. The Government are considering the Welsh forces; the Secretary of State for the Home responses to the consultation and will publish their Department, my right hon. Friend the Member for response in due course. Maidenhead (Mrs May), and I are currently considering these recommendations and will provide our response Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for the to the report in the near future. Once elected it will be Home Department which border control checks were for each PCC to determine the cost of their staff and suspended on (a) 30 June 2011 and (b) 30 November publicly account for all costs of their office. The total 2011; whether those suspensions had ministerial estimated day-to-day costs of PCCs in Wales is not approval; and when any such approval was given. expected to be any higher than the current costs of [86088] police authorities in the area.

Damian Green: In advance of industrial action on Union of Good 30 June and 30 November an operating protocol was authorised by the Secretary of State for the Home Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for the Department, my right hon. Friend the Member for Home Department what discussions she has had with Maidenhead (Mrs May). The protocol ensured that the US government on the Union of Good; and if she appropriate immigration and customs checks were will make a statement. [86592] conducted on all passengers arriving at UK ports and airports during the period of industrial action. James Brokenshire: Home Office Ministers and officials have meetings with a wide variety of international Immigration Controls: Cyclamen Machines partners, as well as organisations and individuals in the public and private sectors, as part of the process of policy development and delivery. Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for the As was the case with previous Administrations, it is Home Department how many (a) ports and (b) not the Government’s practice to provide details of all airports did not operate cyclamen machines on 30 such meetings. November 2011. [86089] Windsor Review of Police Officers Damian Green: Cyclamen remained operational on 30 November 2011 at all ports and airports where fixed Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for the equipment is installed. Screening was undertaken following Home Department what (a) representations she has standard operating procedures. received and (b) discussions she has had with the 895W Written Answers15 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 896W

Police Federation of England and Wales on the (Mrs May), referred recommendations about police Windsor Review of Police Officers’ and Staff officers’ pay and conditions from part 1 of the review to Remuneration and Conditions; and if she will make a the police negotiating machinery and that process is statement. [86650] ongoing. We will consider the outcome of that process carefully before any decisions are made as to the Nick Herbert: The Independent Review of Police implementation of Tom Winsor’s recommendations. Officer and Staff Remuneration and Conditions is in Part 2 of the review is due to report in January. two parts. The Secretary of State for the Home Department, Ministers meet and engage regularly with the Police my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead Federation.

1MC Ministerial Corrections15 DECEMBER 2011 Ministerial Corrections 2MC Ministerial Corrections The correct answer should have been: Peter Luff: As at 7 September 2011, the Order of Thursday 15 December 2011 Battle for the fleet was as follows:

Number DEFENCE 1 Navy Landing Platform Helicopter 2 Landing Platform Dock 2 Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for T45 3 Defence what the Order of Battle is of the fleet. T42 3 T23 13 [71100] Hunt Class MCV 8 [Official Report, 15 September 2011, Vol. 532, c. 1300-01W.] Sandown Class MCV 7 Letter of correction from Peter Luff: River Class Offshore Patrol Vessels 3 An error has been identified in the written answer Helicopter Offshore Patrol Vessels 1 given to the right hon. Member for Mid Sussex (Nicholas P2000 Patrol Boats 18 Soames) on 15 September 2011. The original answer Ocean Survey Vessels 1 included an error which failed to take account of the Coastal Survey Vessels 3 recent decommissioning of a Type 42 Destroyer on Antarctic Patrol Ship 1 30 June 2011. Ships Submersible Ballistic Nuclear 4 The full answer given was as follows: Ship Submersible Nuclear 7 Assault Helicopters—Sea King Mk4 3 Sqns Peter Luff: As at 7 September 2011, the Order of Search and Rescue—Sea King Mk5 2 Sqns Battle for the fleet was as follows: Airbourne Surveillance and 3 Sqns Control—Sea King Mk7 Number Anti Submarine and Anti Surface: Landing Platform Helicopter 12 Merlin Mk1 Lynx 4 Sqns Landing Platform Dock 2 Mk3 and Mk8 3 Sqns T45 3 T42 4 T23 13 Battlefield Helicopters—Lynx Mk9 1 Sqn Hunt Class MCV 8 Elementary Flying 3 Sqns Sandown Class MCV 7 Beechcraft King Air 350ER Avenger 1 Sqn 1 River Class Offshore Patrol Vessels 3 HMS Illustrious is now operating in the Landing Platform Helicopter role, as well as HMS Ocean. Helicopter Offshore Patrol Vessels 1 P2000 Patrol Boats 18 For the Royal Fleet Auxiliary: Ocean Survey Vessels 1 Coastal Survey Vessels 3 Number Antarctic Patrol Ship 1 Fleet Tankers 2 Ships Submersible Ballistic Nuclear 4 Support Tankers 1 Ship Submersible Nuclear 7 Small Fleet Tankers 2 Assault Helicopters—Sea King Mk4 3 Sqns Fleet Replenishment Ships 3 Search and Rescue—Sea King Mk5 2 Sqns Landing Ship Dock 3 Airbourne Surveillance and 3 Sqns Control—Sea King Mk7 Aviation Training Ship 1 Forward Repair Ship 1

Anti Submarine and Anti Surface: Merlin Mk1 Lynx 4 Sqns Warships Mk3 and Mk8 3 Sqns Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Battlefield Helicopters—Lynx Mk9 1 Sqn Defence how many warships are available for active Elementary Flying 3 Sqns service in the Navy. [78010] Beechcraft King Air 350ER Avenger 1 Sqn [Official Report, 2 November 2011, Vol. 534, c. 660W.] 1 HMS Illustrious is now operating in the Landing Platform Helicopter role, as well as HMS Ocean. Letter of correction from Peter Luff: For the Royal Fleet Auxiliary: An error has been identified in the written answer given to the right hon. Member for Wokingham Number (Mr Redwood) on 2 November 2011. The original answer included an error which failed to take account of the Fleet Tankers 2 recent decommissioning of a Type 42 Destroyer on Support Tankers 1 30 June 2011. Small Fleet Tankers 2 The full answer given was as follows: Fleet Replenishment Ships 3 Landing Ship Dock 3 Peter Luff: Details of the number of Royal Navy Aviation Training Ship 1 warships available, in various states of readiness, for Forward Repair Ship 1 active service are provided in the following table: 3MC Ministerial Corrections15 DECEMBER 2011 Ministerial Corrections 4MC

The full answer given was as follows: Number

Landing Platform Helicopter 12 Mr Bellingham: The information requested is as follows: Landing Platform Dock 2 (a) The general rule is that the relevant flag—as Type 45 Destroyer 3 follows—should be flown at post on all working days Type 42 Destroyer 4 during office hours, depending on which country the Type 23 Frigate 13 posts are located in and the type: Hunt Class Mine Counter 8 Diplomatic flag—this is the Union flag with the Royal Arms in Measures Vessel the centre surrounded by a green garland. Sandown Class Mine Counter 7 Consular flag—this is the Union flag with the St Edward’s Measures Vessel Crown in the centre on a white disc . It is only flown at consular River Class Offshore Patrol Vessels 3 posts in foreign countries. River Class Offshore Patrol Vessels 1 Union flag—this is flown in Commonwealth countries. (Helicopter) European flag—the display of the European flag is a courtesy P2000 Patrol Boats 18 rather than a requirement. On Europe day (9 May), posts in EU and EU-applicant countries should display the European flag. Ocean Survey Vessels 1 Other posts may also display the flag on Europe day where this is Coastal Survey Vessels 3 normal local practice. UKREP Brussels displays the European Ice Patrol Ship 1 flag at all times. All posts may display the flag at other times Ships Submersible Ballistic Nuclear 4 where this is normal local practice. Ship Submersible Nuclear 7 In all cases, the European flag is displayed alongside, not 1 HMS Illustrious is now operating in the Landing Platform Helicopter instead of, the British Diplomatic, Consular or in Commonwealth role, as well as HMS Ocean. countries the Union flag, with the British flag having precedence. The correct answer should have been: Overseas Territories—The personal flag of an Officer Administering the Government (OAG) in an Overseas Territory is the Union Peter Luff: Details of the number of Royal Navy flag, superimposed in the centre with the approved arms or badge of the Territory on a white disc surrounded by a green garland. It warships available, in various states of readiness, for is flown from sunrise to sunset at Government House when the active service are provided in the following table: OAG is in residence: if he/she is not, the flag is flown wherever he/she is in the Territory. Number The Union flag is flown from sunrise to sunset at Government

1 House when the OAG is not in residence. It is also flown there if Landing Platform Helicopter 2 he/she has placed the residence entirely at the disposal of an Landing Platform Dock 2 important visitor, e.g. a member of the royal family. Type 45 Destroyer 3 UK national flags—three of the four constituent countries of Type 42 Destroyer 3 the United Kingdom have their own national flags: the St Andrew’s, Type 23 Frigate 13 St David’s, and St George’s flags. (Northern Ireland is currently Hunt Class Mine Counter 8 without a national flag, pending a new design.) These flags may Measures Vessel be flown on the appropriate national day. Posts also have discretion Sandown Class Mine Counter 7 to fly them when special circumstances/events dictate, e.g. the visit Measures Vessel of a Minister from a devolved Administration. River Class Offshore Patrol Vessels 3 London 2012—The International Olympic Committee and the River Class Offshore Patrol Vessels 1 London Organising Committee of the Olympic Games gave (Helicopter) permission for posts overseas to fly the London 2012 host country flag on key dates in 2012 and for the duration of the London 2012 P2000 Patrol Boats 18 Olympic and Paralympic Games, which the Secretary of State for Ocean Survey Vessels 1 Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Coastal Survey Vessels 3 Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), has supported. The Ice Patrol Ship 1 dates in question are as follows: Ships Submersible Ballistic Nuclear 4 9 January 2012: 200 days to go—Olympics Ship Submersible Nuclear 7 11 February 2012: 200 days to go—Paralympics 1 HMS Illustrious is now operating in the Landing Platform Helicopter 18 April 2012: 100 days to go—Olympics role, as well as HMS Ocean. 10 May 2012: Lighting of the Olympic flame 17 May 2012: Handover of the Olympic flame 18 May 2012: Arrival in the UK of the Olympic flame FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE 21 May 2012: 100 days to go—Paralympics Departmental Flags 27 July to 12 August 2012 inclusive: Olympic Games 29 August to 9 September 2012 inclusive: Paralympic Games. Posts are only permitted to fly the 2012 flag on those agreed Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for dates above, but can display it in their reception areas at other Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs which flag or flags times. Again the British Diplomatic, Consular or the Union flag, are routinely displayed outside each of his will take precedence. Department’s overseas (a) posts and (b) residences. (b) The general rule for flying the relevant flags listed [84588] above at Residencies is that they should be flown on the [Official Report, 7 December 2011, Vol. 537, c. 307-8W.] following British anniversaries, during the visit of one Letter of correction from Henry Bellingham: of Her Majesty’s ships or on days of local celebration An error has been identified in the written answer or mourning. given to the hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) British Anniversaries: on 7 December 2011. 20 January: birthday of HRH the Countess of Wessex 5MC Ministerial Corrections15 DECEMBER 2011 Ministerial Corrections 6MC

6 February: Her Majesty’s Accession (Northern Ireland is currently without a national flag, pending a 19 February: birthday of HRH the Duke of York new design.) These flags may be flown on the appropriate national day.Posts also have discretion to fly them when special circumstances/ 1 March: St David’s day events dictate, e.g. the visit of a Minister from a devolved 10 March: birthday of HRH the Earl of Wessex Administration. 17 March: St Patrick’s day London 2012—The International Olympic Committee and the March (second Monday): Commonwealth day London Organising Committee of the Olympic Games gave 21 April: birthday of Her Majesty permission for posts overseas to fly the London 2012 host country flag on key dates in 2012 and for the duration of the London 2012 23 April: St George’s day Olympic and Paralympic Games, which the Secretary of State for 9 May: Europe day1 Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the 2 June: Coronation day Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), has supported. The dates in question are as follows: 10 June: birthday of HRH the Duke of Edinburgh 9 January 2012: 200 days to go—Olympics June (second Saturday): official celebration of Her Majesty’s birthday 11 February 2012: 200 days to go—Paralympics 17 July: birthday of HRH the Duchess of Cornwall 18 April 2012: 100 days to go—Olympics 15 August: birthday of HRH the Princess Royal 10 May 2012: Lighting of the Olympic flame November (second Sunday):Remembrance day 17 May 2012: Handover of the Olympic flame 14 November: birthday of HRH the Prince of Wales 18 May 2012: Arrival in the UK of the Olympic flame 20 November: Her Majesty’s wedding anniversary 21 May 2012: 100 days to go—Paralympics 30 November: St Andrew’s day. 27 July to 12 August 2012 inclusive: Olympic Games 1 The Union flag should fly alongside the European flag. On 29 August to 9 September 2012 inclusive: Paralympic Games. Government buildings that only have one flagpole, the Union flag Posts are only permitted to fly the 2012 flag on those agreed should take precedence. dates above, but can display it in their reception areas at other The correct answer should have been: times. Again the British Diplomatic, Consular or the Union flag, will take precedence. Mr Bellingham: The information requested is as follows: (b) The general rule for flying the relevant flags listed (a) The general rule is that the relevant flag—as above at Residencies is that they should be flown on the follows—should be flown at post on all working days following British anniversaries, during the visit of one during office hours, depending on which country the of Her Majesty’s ships or on days of local celebration posts are located in and the type: or mourning. Diplomatic flag—this is the Union flag with the Royal Arms in British Anniversaries: the centre surrounded by a green garland. 20 January: birthday of HRH the Countess of Wessex Consular flag—this is the Union flag with the St Edward’s Crown in the centre on a white disc . It is only flown at consular 6 February: Her Majesty’s Accession posts in foreign countries. 19 February: birthday of HRH the Duke of York Union flag—this is flown in Commonwealth countries. 1 March: St David’s day European flag—the display of the European flag is a courtesy 10 March: birthday of HRH the Earl of Wessex rather than a requirement. On Europe day (9 May), posts in EU and EU-applicant countries should display the European flag. 17 March: St Patrick’s day Other posts may also display the flag on Europe day where this is March (second Monday): Commonwealth day normal local practice. UKREP Brussels displays the European 21 April: birthday of Her Majesty flag at all times. All posts may display the flag at other times where this is normal local practice. 23 April: St George’s day In all cases, the European flag is displayed alongside, not 9 May: Europe day1 instead of, the British Diplomatic, Consular or in Commonwealth 2 June: Coronation day countries the Union flag, with the British flag having precedence. 10 June: birthday of HRH the Duke of Edinburgh Overseas Territories—The personal flag of an Officer Administering the Government (OAG) in an Overseas Territory is the Union June (second Saturday): official celebration of Her Majesty’s flag, superimposed in the centre with the approved arms or badge birthday of the Territory on a white disc surrounded by a green garland. It 17 July: birthday of HRH the Duchess of Cornwall is flown from sunrise to sunset at Government House when the OAG is in residence: if he/she is not, the flag is flown wherever 15 August: birthday of HRH the Princess Royal he/she is in the Territory. November (second Sunday):Remembrance day The Union flag is flown from sunrise to sunset at Government 14 November: birthday of HRH the Prince of Wales House when the OAG is not in residence. It is also flown there if 20 November: Her Majesty’s wedding anniversary he/she has placed the residence entirely at the disposal of an important visitor, e.g. a member of the royal family. 30 November: St Andrew’s day. UK national flags—three of the four constituent countries of 1 The Union flag should fly alongside the European flag. On the United Kingdom have their own national flags: the St Andrew’s, Government buildings that only have one flagpole, the Union flag Y Ddraig Goch “The Red Dragon”, and St George’s Cross flags. should take precedence.

ORAL ANSWERS

Thursday 15 December 2011

Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 905 HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 924 Commonwealth Games...... 915 Apprentices...... 924 Football Governance (Football Association) ...... 908 Football Governance (Supporters)...... 907 Libraries ...... 905 Libraries ...... 914 LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 920 London Olympics ...... 914 Allocation of Business Hours ...... 923 Participation in Sport...... 912 Bills (Third Reading)...... 925 Rural Broadband ...... 910 E-petitions ...... 920 Topical Questions ...... 915 Parliamentary Privilege...... 921 Tourism...... 909 Parliamentary Reform...... 925 Women in Sport ...... 906 Pre-legislative Scrutiny ...... 924 Work Visas (Musicians) ...... 911 Protection of War Memorials ...... 1029 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Thursday 15 December 2011

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 107WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS— EU General Affairs Council (Pre-Council continued Statement)...... 107WS Independent Agricultural Appeals Panel ...... 123WS

CABINET OFFICE...... 108WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 123WS Public Bodies Reform ...... 108WS Overseas Security and Justice Assistance Guidance ...... 123WS COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 110WS Troubled Families ...... 110WS HEALTH...... 125WS Tobacco Control Legislation...... 125WS CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 111WS Education, Youth, Culture and Sport Council ...... 111WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 125WS Export of Works of Art and Objects of Cultural National Policing Improvement Agency...... 125WS Interest...... 113WS Treasure Valuation Committee...... 114WS JUSTICE...... 127WS DEFENCE...... 114WS Coroner Services (Charter) ...... 129WS Cyprus ...... 114WS Fines, Confiscation Orders and Fixed Penalties ..... 127WS London 2012 Olympics ...... 116WS Public Bodies Reform ...... 128WS RAF Scampton...... 115WS Veterans Advisory and Pensions Committees TRANSPORT ...... 130WS Review ...... 117WS EU Transport Council ...... 130WS War Pensions Scheme Uprating 2012...... 117WS Red Tape Challenge (Reform of Road Transport Regulations)...... 132WS EDUCATION...... 119WS Young People in Education, Training and Work .... 119WS TREASURY ...... 107WS NICs Holiday Factsheet...... 107WS ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 120WS Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Act 2010...... 108WS Electricity Market Reforms...... 120WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 133WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL European Social Fund Support for Troubled AFFAIRS...... 122WS Families ...... 133WS Agriculture and Fisheries Council (Agenda)...... 122WS Workplace Pension Reform...... 133WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Thursday 15 December 2011

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 864W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Extradition: USA...... 864W Export Credit Guarantees: Libya...... 858W Intellectual Property ...... 858W Scholarships...... 859W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 858W Students: Loans ...... 859W Business: Government Assistance ...... 858W Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued HEALTH—continued Tourism: Arts...... 860W HIV Infection: Screening ...... 833W Mental Health Services: Ex-servicemen ...... 834W CABINET OFFICE...... 841W NHS: ICT ...... 835W Construction: Procurement...... 841W NHS Trusts...... 834W Employment: Financial Services ...... 841W Social Services: Finance ...... 835W Government Departments: Internet...... 842W Telehealth ...... 835W Ministers...... 842W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 886W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT . 846W Asylum ...... 886W Council Tax ...... 846W Civil Disorder ...... 886W Mortgages: Government Assistance...... 847W Crime: Closed Circuit Television...... 886W Senior Civil Servants: Pay ...... 847W Criminal Investigations: Care Homes...... 887W Departmental Manpower...... 887W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT...... 831W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 887W Broadband: Mobile Phones ...... 831W Detainees: Children...... 888W Live Music Industry ...... 831W Drugs...... 888W Local Broadcasting: Television ...... 831W Extradition: Russia ...... 888W Olympic Games 2012: National Lottery...... 832W Forensic Science...... 889W Olympic Games 2012: Plastic Bags ...... 832W Human Trafficking Ministerial Group...... 889W Secondary Ticketing Market...... 831W Immigrants: Citizenship...... 890W Sports: Facilities...... 832W Immigrants: Detainees ...... 891W Television: Licensing ...... 833W Immigration Controls ...... 893W Immigration Controls: Cyclamen Machines...... 893W DEFENCE...... 865W Members: Correspondence ...... 894W Aircraft Carriers ...... 865W Police ...... 894W Armed Forces: Recruitment ...... 865W Police: Accountability ...... 894W Armed Forces: Young People...... 865W Union of Good...... 894W Defence Equipment ...... 866W Windsor Review of Police Officers...... 894W Members: Correspondence ...... 866W Military Aircraft ...... 867W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 860W RAF Leuchars ...... 867W Electronic Equipment: House of Commons...... 860W

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 843W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 855W Constituencies...... 843W Democratic Republic of Congo: Elections ...... 855W EU External Trade: Cocoa...... 856W EDUCATION...... 868W Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Schools: Manpower ...... 868W Malaria...... 856W

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE...... 875W JUSTICE...... 879W Carbon Sequestration ...... 875W Care Homes: Hampshire...... 879W Departmental Manpower...... 876W Chief Coroner: Public Appointments...... 879W Electricity Generation...... 876W Civil Disorder ...... 879W Energy Performance Certificates...... 875W County Courts ...... 881W Nuclear Power: Safety...... 877W Departmental Pay ...... 882W Renewable Energy: Wales...... 877W Market Testing Evaluation Panels...... 883W Solar Power: Feed-in Tariffs...... 878W Members: Correspondence ...... 883W Warm Front Scheme ...... 878W Personal Injury ...... 883W Warm Homes and Energy Conservation Act 2000 . 878W Prisoners’ Transfers...... 884W Prisons: Public Sector ...... 884W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Probation ...... 885W AFFAIRS...... 857W Work Capability Assessment: Appeals ...... 885W Farms: Regulation ...... 857W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 885W Food ...... 857W Food Supply...... 858W LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 835W Major Policy Initiatives...... 835W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 860W Private Members’ Bills ...... 836W Democratic Republic of Congo: Elections ...... 860W Queen’s Speech ...... 836W Departmental Catering ...... 861W Times of Sitting ...... 836W Departmental Civil Proceedings...... 861W Departmental Risk Assessment ...... 862W PRIME MINISTER ...... 873W Khaled al-Johani...... 862W Bell Pottinger ...... 873W Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of EU Action ...... 875W Offenders Bill 2010-12...... 862W Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 875W Libya: Terrorism ...... 863W Saudi Arabia: Counter-Terrorism ...... 863W TRANSPORT ...... 843W Sergei Magnitsky...... 864W Aviation: Working Hours...... 843W Union of Good: USA ...... 864W Business: Administration ...... 843W Crossrail Line: Bexleyheath...... 843W HEALTH...... 833W Departmental Official Photographs ...... 844W Heart Diseases: Screening ...... 833W Highways Agency ...... 844W Col. No. Col. No. TRANSPORT—continued TREASURY—continued Intercity Express Programme ...... 844W Taxation: Switzerland ...... 855W Railway Stations: Worcester...... 845W Union of Good: USA ...... 855W Rescue Services: Liverpool...... 845W Rescue Services: Wales ...... 845W WALES...... 836W Shipping...... 845W Departmental Food...... 836W Shipping: Flags ...... 846W Driving Under Influence: Rehabilitation...... 836W Underground Railways: Tyne and Wear...... 846W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 864W Nightclubs: Fees and Charges ...... 864W TREASURY ...... 849W Air Passenger Duty ...... 849W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 837W Bell Pottinger Group...... 850W Departmental Public Expenditure ...... 837W Capital Gains Tax ...... 850W Employment and Support Allowance: Drugs...... 837W Commodity Markets...... 851W Employment and Support Allowance: Public Departmental Manpower...... 851W Finance...... 838W Departmental Secondment ...... 852W Employment: Young People...... 838W Financial Services: Manpower ...... 852W Independent Living Fund ...... 839W Income tax: Females ...... 853W London Underground: Industrial Health and Money Advice Service...... 853W Safety...... 839W Ofgem: Fines...... 854W Social Security Benefits: Bexley...... 840W Personal Pensions ...... 854W Work Programme...... 840W Rebates: Fraud...... 855W Work Programme: Employment...... 841W MINISTERIAL CORRECTIONS

Thursday 15 December 2011

Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE...... 1MC FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 3MC Navy ...... 1MC Departmental Flags ...... 3MC Warships ...... 2MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Thursday 22 December 2011

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CONTENTS

Thursday 15 December 2011

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 905] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport Leader of the House House of Commons Commission

Business of the House [Col. 927] Statement—(Sir George Young)

Backbench Business Parliamentary Standards Act 2009 [Col. 944] Motion—(Adam Afriye) Amendment—(Guto Bebb)—agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to Financial Education [Col. 979] Motion—(Justin Tomlinson)—agreed to

Petition [Col. 1029]

Health Services (Disabled Children) [Col. 1030] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Remploy [Col. 343WH] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 107WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 831W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Corrections [Col. 1MC]