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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

(Introduction - p1)

IN THE HIGH COURT OF SOUTH

JOHANNESBURG

DATE: 2001.07.16

COMMISSION OF INQUIRY

into the

ELLIS PARK DISASTER

------

CHAIRMAN: NGOEPE JP

MEMBER: ADV SEMENYA SC

CHAIRMAN: Mr Attwell?

MR ATTWELL: Mr Chairman, honourable additional member, Mr Semenya, may I by way of procedure before we commence request a direction from yourself. Is everything that I say and the witness says in English to be interpreted in any language for the benefit of any of the spectators in court? If that is the case, the interpreters are here and that will obviously slow our proceedings.

CHAIRMAN: Where is the interpreter?

MR ATTWELL: The interpreter is here, sir.

CHAIRMAN: Obviously if the people do not understand, what I am going to say will not mean anything to them but I would like you to interpret across to find out whether there are people who will not be able to understand English and if there are any, would they just please raise their hands.

CHAIRMAN: You are in the minority. But it may be useful if you had been nearer but it does not matter. We will see what to do. Mr Interpreter, if you could just get an appropriate spot where you will be able to speak across to them. I am sure that will be helpful. Thank you.

MR ATTWELL: It may also be appropriate at this juncture, Mr Chairman, if the various parties were to place themselves on record and identify who they appear for for the future proceedings. So I will ask them to introduce themselves.

CHAIRMAN: Yes, thank you very much.

MR ATTWELL: May I commence by placing on record myself, Mr Attwell, Deputy Director, Public Prosecutions, Pretoria; Mr Ledwaba and I colleague of mine in the office Adv Ms Gangudu to assist the commission in presenting evidence.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you. The next group to introduce themselves and place themselves on record please?

MR JORDAAN: May it please you, Mr Commissioner. I appear on behalf of SAFA, the NSL, Kaizer Chiefs and Orlando Pirates together with my learned friends Mr Arendse and Mr Ntsebeza. We are instructed by attorneys Van Wyk and Abercrombie of Hofmeyr Attorneys.

CHAIRMAN: Next one?

MR WEPENER: Mr Chairman, W L Wepener, I appear with my learned junior, Mr T J Bokaba. We appear on behalf of the South African Police Services.

MR ENGELBRECHT: Mr Chairman, J H Engelbrecht. I appear for Ellis Park (Pty) Ltd and for certain of the witnesses who are employed by . The first will be called, I believe, is Mr Stainton. I am instructed by Attorney (indistinct) and attorneys Nathanson, Bowman & Nathan.

MR FICHARDT: I am G Fichardt representing Stallion Events and any employees that might be called. I am from Webber Wentzel Bowens.

MR COETZEE: I am Coetzee from the Pretoria Bar. I appear on behalf of De Villiers and De Beer and my client is Diligence Service Holdings (Pty) Ltd.

CHAIRMAN: Is that all? May I please address you? You say you appear for SAFA Chiefs and Orlando Pirates. I just want to confirm and put it on record. Some times in the past, Mr Attwell, you will recall that I asked you to speak to the little team appearing for SAFA Chiefs and Orlando Pirates and I asked you to confer from them that they foresee no conflict of interest because if that arises it may cause problems in the proceedings. I just want to confirm with you, you confirm to ask that you foresee no conflict of interest.

MR JORDAAN: That is so. That was put in writing and a formal confirmation has been addressed.

CHAIRMAN: Yes, I just want to put it on record. Thank you very much. file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/jul16a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:01 AM] jul 16 a

I think we should as the Commissioner apologise for having started later than we promised everybody but as you know particularly on the first day there are a lot of preliminaries which have to be ironed out to make sure that everything is on a proper footing. So we apologise for having started late.

Mr Attwell, will you please for record purposes identify the proceedings?

MR ATTWELL: May I commence by saying, sir, that it is three months virtually to the day that we stand here following the tragic incident on 11 April at Ellis Park.

CHAIRMAN: Yes please proceed.

MR ATTWELL: In a proclamation in the Government Gazette of 20 April 2001, the State President declared the provisions of the Commissions Act applicable to a Commission of Inquiry to investigate this disaster and it was published in the Government Gazette and it will form part of the papers later before court.

This commission was task, sir, to do a number of things. Firstly, to enquire into; to make findings and to report on the following matters:

1. The facts that led to the disaster on 11 April 2001 at Ellis Park Stadium and in particular:

1.1 Events that took place on the day in question.

1.2 Factors which proceeded the events and which led to the tragedy.

1.3 Whether there was any mismanagement on the part of anybody.

2. The commission was tasked to report and make recommendations on how a similar occurrence was to be prevented in the future and mention was made of the fact that these terms may be varied or amended from time to time.

Shortly thereafter, sir, it was announced that yourself was appointed as the Chairman of this judicial commission of inquiry and it was announced that as an additional member Adv Semenya SC from the Johannesburg Bar would sit together with you in this matter.

Thereafter at the request of the Department of Sport, the Department of Justice was approached to appoint both members from the official staff to assist in presenting evidence before the commission as well as to make available to the commission a secretarial service to which senior members of the Justice Department administration were seconded to this commission to do the secretarial work and the parties who represent as I have placed on record already, were approached and made available to present evidence.

One of the first acts of the commission was to place advertisements in newspapers and calls on the radio for submissions to be made and a date of 15 June was mentioned for the submission of such representations and submissions to the commission.

CHAIRMAN: Sorry, Mr Attwell you were going to tell us the various steps you took or the commission took in advertising itself etcetera etcetera.

MR ATTWELL: I will deal with them briefly, sir.

CHAIRMAN: Yes, perhaps you should categorise it and identify it independently as an aspect of the proceedings.

MR ATTWELL: Yes.

CHAIRMAN: And from the bench we would like to ask to inform the commission what steps were taken to advertise the commission and what steps were subsequently also taken to make known the date of the hearing.

MR ATTWELL: Advertisements were placed in the national press. The first was on 6 May in the Sunday Times and I know the next day it was in local newspapers as well, 7 May, containing the official calling for submissions.

The secretariat assured me that steps were simultaneously taken with the people from the news media attached to radio to give publicity to this on radio stations and that such was done at that time. On 8 May this year you as chairman, sir, called a meeting of what one may call major role players, most of them have identified themselves and placed themselves on record this morning as representatives of the main role players in this sorry incident.

A general call was made for cooperation and assistance to the commission and the date of 15 June was mentioned specifically as a date for submission of representations.

The seriousness of the matter was underlined by yourself, sir, and it was impressed upon the parties that shortly after the cut-off date you would wish to commence with the proceedings to hear oral evidence some weeks after the cut-off date was mentioned.

Amongst other things a concern was raised during that meeting by some of the role players that the regulations of the commission might usefully be amended to include some sort of provision to guarantee witnesses that should testify before you, some form of immunity from prosecution criminally and civil liability as a result of anything they would tell you.

As I stand here this morning, sir, I am advised that the necessary authority has been signed. We are awaiting the Government Gazette to be printed. It might even be here later today. I understand that there is now a provision in the amended regulations giving effect to that concern.

CHAIRMAN: Sorry, to interrupt you there. I think there may be confusion about the .. a promise was not to give people immunity against criminal prosecution or civil prosecution and certainly that is not the nature of the regulations. I just think that that must be clarified at once. I think the purpose is to prevent evidence given before this commission to be used against any person who has testified here whether in a criminal court or in civil proceedings. We have no control over criminal prosecutions. I do not know if they are going to hold some inquest proceedings. I do not know what is going to flow out of that. We have absolutely no control over that and we have absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with such proceedings. But I just thought that maybe the way you put it, some people might misunderstand you to say we are like the amnesty proceedings. We grant immunity against criminal prosecutions. We do not. And as I have said the idea is that evidence used in these proceedings should not be used against any person in subsequent proceedings, so that people should feel free to say whatever they want to say. Sorry I interrupted you. I thought it was necessary.

MR ATTWELL: Any uncertainty in that regard will of course be addressed in the Government Gazette as well. Thank you, sir.

In the interim, sir, members of the secretariat and ourselves endeavoured to engage with the media in an effort to see whether we could give further publicity to problems that were being experienced in getting submissions and also to deal with other aspects where we think the media might be able to help us.

This was before your cut-off date have established 15 June.

A number of members of both printed and electronic media did attend that. Within a day, sir, there were news reports in both media that dealt with the ... printed media that dealt with the black leadership as well as local white newspapers did cover a call for submissions to be made and for encouraging people to come forward and testify in the matter.

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I may mention that the media did raise the customary issue of getting too actively involved with proceedings of a judicial nature. Shortly thereafter we did have receive certain video material from some of the video media.

As the deadline, 15 June, approached, it was clear that very little by way of either submissions were made to role players and/or from the public was being received by the commission which led to calls which were printed in the media both by the secretariat and I think you yourself, sir, on a number of occasions also made public the fact that response has been extremely poor.

In desperation letters calling on major role players to please submit certain documentation which was listed was in the process of being prepared just before the cut-off date of 15 June.

The decision was then taken before 15 June actually arrived to convert letters of request to formal subpoenas and these were then served with as much haste it could be done on various of the major role players.

CHAIRMAN: Sorry, Mr Attwell, I think let me just ask this question. The notice informing people about the establishment of this commission, it was in the media. In how many newspapers?

MR ATTWELL: Sir, I certainly have it from both black newspaper and the Sunday Times on record. I do not have copies with me. The secretariat would have to say in how many of the various newspapers it was asked to be published.

CHAIRMAN: How much was spent on advertising?

MR ATTWELL: The exact figure I think was R15 000,00 was spent on that - that was on 20 .. it appeared on as I mentioned earlier on 6 May in the Sunday Times and the next morning, that would have been 7 May it was in the other newspapers as well. I have them on file.

CHAIRMAN: And subsequently a date for the hearing was determined. It is true, isn't it that also the fact that this commission has been established, was also advertised on radio and on television.

MR ATTWELL: There was much publicity given to the fact that there was such.

CHAIRMAN: And subsequently a date was determined. Was that date advertised in the media?

MR ATTWELL: The date appeared in the newspapers, sir, on 28 June by my note mentioning 16 July as being the date.

CHAIRMAN: And that was again in the various media?

MR ATTWELL: I saw it in at least two newspapers. The clippings are also on file.

CHAIRMAN: The secretary herself and myself also and my co-commissioner, Adv Semenya, on various occasions spoke on radio about this thing.

MR ATTWELL: I am so advised, sir, and I have seen newspaper reports covering interviews that you had with the press and other occasions in which a call for people to come forward as well as the fact that the response had been so poor and mentioning the date were all in the newspaper reports.

CHAIRMAN: It seems to me that all these notwithstanding there are people who say that they were not aware of these proceedings and also as to the date of commencement. What efforts, if any, had been made to look into that?

MR ATTWELL: Sir, very recently there were newspaper reports concerning families of the deceased that their claim in the newspaper reports not to have had sufficient notice or not to have had notice before but just before this day of that. In that regard I may say, sir, that the commission received for the first time post mortem reports, I personally hand delivered them at the request of the state attorney's office in Pretoria to the secretariat on 26 June. The secretariat made efforts to notify the families of the deceased by letters by registered post once the date had been announced, 16 July, and those were by letters dated 2 July.

CHAIRMAN: I appreciate that you can sometimes do as much as you can and not more than that.

MR ATTWELL: I may just mention, sir, that the press has indicated that some of the people again did not know and the secretariat made contact with these people to find that the addresses that they had been given for some of these people, differed from new addresses that some of the press had in their possession and again steps were taken with the new addresses to phone these people and to advise them of the date of the hearing - - - that is the families of the deceased.

CHAIRMAN: So we can accept that steps had been taken and it will continue to be taken to inform such people as you will be able to secure their addresses and alike?

MR ATTWELL: Yes, I think one of the motivations for the sooner rather than later commencement of proceedings was also in an effort to get the proceedings on the road so to say and thereby to encourage people to come forward and once they say it was one, the people would come forward and assist. So that was another reason why the pressed for an early commencement of the actual proceedings and that was also mentioned at the very outset to the various parties.

CHAIRMAN: I suggest that you prepare a document setting out the steps and the newspapers in which the initial notices were advised and alike and then hand it in as an exhibit. But I think (indistinct) and it is of importance to us to know that steps are continuing to get in touch with as much as people as possible especially members of the bereaved families. It is just about 11:25 and I think when we come back we would like to start with evidence. Are you able to quickly tell us what .. (intervenes)

MR ATTWELL: Perhaps I should just place on record .. (intervenes)

CHAIRMAN: Let me just finish what I want to say. We cannot talk simultaneously. It will be useful if you were to indicate to us which witnesses you are going to start with and possibly also the nature of the thrust of their evidence. Are you able to do that?

MR ATTWELL: The first witness, sir, which I envisage would take some time is the general manager of the Ellis Park Stadium. He, we believe, would set out the scene, to describe the stadium, there is also part of the plan for the game that took place on the 11th. He was there on the night, observed things and in his particular capacity could offer very useful insight. We thought at the time during his examination the proceedings would probably adjourn and that an official inspection in loco would take place. That depends on whether your members of the commission and others feel that it may be relevant for them to see before they can usefully cross-examine either Mr Stainton or witnesses to follow. That certainly was envisaged. We thought that during his evidence certain snatches of a video tape would be shown to place the times for certain events and he will identify photos including photos of damage to the stadium that night and this would be a useful way to start. That evidence is obviously not going to last half a day. By all accounts it should last some while. After that the intention is to call a number of ordinary people, private people, who did go to the game in question and sketch for the commission what their experiences were on the night. It is not too many of the same kind but various ones.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you. You mentioned an inspection in loco. I assume that ... well, let me say that obviously counsel are not going to make their preparations on the assumption that before they cross-examine, we will go for an inspection in loco. I will take it that everybody would know how to prepare their case and if they would be going on their own to conduct their own personal inspection in loco to enable themselves to cross-examine. Cross- examination of witnesses is not necessarily going to be withheld pending an inspection in loco by this commission because the commission may even not go

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there. It may not feel the need to go there. (indistinct) and most of them contained very sketchy plans and all that kind of things and I suppose the intention was that we should acquaint ourselves (indistinct) but the need may arise but I just want to clarify that people should not assume that we will go for an inspection in loco before cross-examination starts. Shall we then adjourn if you do not mind, Mr Attwell?

MR ATTWELL: May I pose two further remarks which may be of assistance?

CHAIRMAN: Yes.

MR ATTWELL: Firstly, I noticed we do have the honourable the Minister of Sport in attendance and I think it is proper that we welcome him here.

CHAIRMAN: In formal proceedings we do not acknowledge the presence of people.

MR ATTWELL: And then secondly, sir, the other witness that we are looking at calling probably on Monday next week, and this will be even if necessary, will be Mr Trevor Phillips who is at present overseas.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. We will start at 11:45. Thank you.

PROCEEDINGS ADJOURN PROCEEDINGS RESUME

CHAIRMAN: I must apologise to our two interpreters. I did not consult them on this one but I would suggest that people who want some interpretation should please come back into court after lunch at about 13:50 so that they could be put together at particular sections. We think we are going to have quiet interpretation after lunch so that we can have some progress. I apologise that I have not consulted you on this one. I hope I am not disrupting your lunch time too much but I think it is the only way to make progress in these proceedings. For example those who want to be interpreted into Zulu would occupy that particular section and those wanting to be interpreted into Sotho the other section so that we can use the method of quiet interpretation. Thank you very much.

MR ATTWELL: Thank you, Mr Chairman. May we place on record as arranged, Mr Chairman, that in fact the transcribers and reporters of the evidence have taken the prescribed oath in terms of the regulations.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

MR ATTWELL: I have taken the liberty, Mr Chairman, of providing counsel for the various parties and for the bench with copies of the documents which (indistinct) the documents appeared to be germane at this stage. There are one or two other files. They were not applicable to the first witness or two. Those files are before you and the witness that we propose calling now will be referring in some detail to at least some of the documents that are now before you.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

MR ATTWELL: I then call without further ado Mr George Stainton.

GEORGE ANDRé STAINTON: d.s.s.

EXAMINATION BY MR ATTWELL: Mr Stainton, you are the general manager of Ellis Park Stadium (Pty) Ltd. - - - That is correct.

When did you commence your duties as such? - - - In February 2001.

In a nutshell could you describe what your duties entail? - - - As general manager of Ellis Park Stadium I am involved in a number of different operational procedures. I am involved in the marketing of Ellis Park Stadium as a multifaceted stadium. I am involved in the financial management of Ellis Park as well as the operational events that take place at Ellis Park.

Now although you have been there for quite a short period really, do you know the history of the new Ellis Park Stadium that was built? - - - I do. Mr Commissioner, can I stand please?

Yes sure. - - - Thank you.

It was built in 1979 and inaugurated in May 1982. Is that correct? - - - Correct.

Was it built as a multipurpose stadium or was it a rugby stadium? - - - Primarily as a rugby stadium.

It was modernised in 1986. - - - Correct.

In 1995 certain external fencing was also reinforced and strengthened? - - - Correct.

And in 1997 the major other stadium the Johannesburg Stadium was built its immediate environment. - - - I understand that.

For the record it is on the outskirts of the Johannesburg CBD in a rather low class residential area. - - - Yes.

Who owns the stadium? - - - The Golden Wine Sport Trust.

What is its present spectator capacity? - - - 59 351 spectators.

Does that include the suites? - - - Correct.

When did Ellis Park Stadium stage its first soccer match as opposed to rugby matches which were its format for? - - - I am not too sure to answer the first football game.

It had been staging soccer matches even at international level for some years. - - - Since 1980.

Mr Chairman, in the bundle of documents which we have numbered EP or Ellis Park documents, Ellis Park 1 or EP1 is a map of the stadium. It is one which the smaller the Ellis Park (indistinct) slightly updated version. May I beg leave to hand in a copy of the one you have in your possession. It will be EP1. Then for my colleague who have not yet got copies, we will pass them around and a transparency has been prepared of the same thing which I would like to be displaced on the screen.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Attwell, for the ... to separate the record (indistinct) which is going to form part of the official record or is it supposed to be the one in my custody so that I should know that because I do not know whether I am free to make some notes in these files that I have.

MR ATTWELL: None of the documents which you have in your possession, sir, are documents which you may not mark. We will have originals where we have them of these. We may very well only have photostat copies that were provided to us by the people - minutes of meetings etcetera. If there is going to be an argument about the authenticity of any these documents, it will have to be entered into at a later stage but we have been given sometimes at very

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late notice - minutes of meetings and other documents. None of the documents you now have are documents which we may not be faced or anything else. These we can use and the ones that we will be handing in are in my submission those that the state will be referred to. There is no doubt that they will be supplemented by other documents which will be handed in later. This I see is the official record of documents that is going in and the idea was rather to start at EXHIBIT A and continue along until eventually we get to AAA and BBB and even further. We will have dedicated files of documents that more naturally belong together - the Ellis Park documents, the police documents and other documents in separate files. That was the intention, sir.

CHAIRMAN: You will be keeping the official bundle of exhibits?

MR ATTWELL: The official bundle of exhibits we will .. (intervenes)

CHAIRMAN: You will keep it in your custody.

MR ATTWELL: We will keep it in our custody.

CHAIRMAN: You will realise these documents must be kept obviously for history. So are you saying that I am free to dirty these records which I have, I can make as many notes as I want to, you will be having a special file somewhere which will be a clean record uncontaminated by my notes.

MR ATTWELL: We undertake to do that, sir, unless the document we received was already in some way contaminated in that form.

CHAIRMAN: That is all I wanted to know.

MR ATTWELL: The documents which you have may be used as you wish. Now Mr Stainton, I think it is going to be necessary for you to describe Ellis Park Stadium and some of its main features especially as it may now be the case there may not even be a particular visit specifically by the commission officially to it. Would you describe the stadium with reference to the particular map that has now been given to you? We have got for the parties, Mr Chairman, the little lase lights and I am quite happy if certain parties during evidence and/or yourself, was in possession of one and from that location you may wish to direct the attention to a particular scene on the map. So if the witness could have that. I beg leave to hand that up to the bench and if we keep one here at this stage. Firstly, does the stadium lie on a more south (indistinct)? - - - Correct.

The main stadium, the grand stand would be the one west. Is that correct? - - - That is correct.

Behind the rugby poles that you can see there in the northern stand, there is a large blank area on the map. What is that? - - - That is the big screen, the jumbo screen that Ellis Park has got.

There is a gorilla fence that runs all around the stadium. Is that correct? Could you just mark it out for us? - - - That is the council parameter fence.

This particular stadium as at 11 April of this year, did it have close circuit TV facility? - - - No.

What is the position with lighting for evening games outside the stadium itself? - - - The stadium itself has lights on the outside parameters all the way around here and there are council lights, Apollo lighting fittings all the way around over here and there but primary between Johannesburg Athletic Stadium and Ellis Park Stadium.

For night games what is the condition of the lighting on that particular area which is a common area for spectators to enter the stadium? - - - Sufficient for a night game and that is owned by the council and on that particular night there was sufficient lighting over here.

Now on the night of 11 April, the major problem experienced was spectators entering the parameter fencing and approaching gates at which area? - - - On 11 April we had two areas of concern. The one is in the southwest corner which are gates 10 or entrances 10, 11 and 12 and 4, 5 and 6 which lead people to 2 and 3.

When one reaches the stadium itself, there is a circular inner passage that each of the levels of the stadium, the ground level, the first level and second level, running virtually in a circular passage all around the stadium just on the inside of the stadium itself. Is that correct? - - - Yes.

Once you have passed through any of the gates to the ground level, you are able then to move, if you went in and came forward, you could move along against the stadium on this inner passage in a westerly direction or in a southerly direction. Is that correct? - - - Not entirely correct. If you enter in here, this area around the tunnel onto the field. If you enter onto the low level, you can only get to a certain point.

Shops, VIC, VIP suites and things are behind the western stand. Is that correct? - - - The owners and the then managers, VIPs are over here.

And at the lower level, your administration offices and things are at the back of the west stand. Is that correct? - - - On the night of 11 April, the Ellis Park management offices were in the white building and the was located inside the stadium.

Once having entered the stadium at any of these gates here and got into the inner passage, you move around the stadium against the back of the stadium in the passage except for the middle of the west stand, that is where you are going to run into a dead end. Is that correct? - - - Partially correct. If you move on in the lower side or inside the concrete structure of the stadium, when you come to this position here, you have to enter the actual seated area just in front of the seated area and you walk along the passage and then you can go back inside and run around to this position. So you can go around the inner stadium up to that point but you have to from this side go back to the seating area.

What are the circular structures that one could see at the corners of the stadium? - - - The ones that you can see here, these are the closest ones, are 6 and 7. They are the ramps that take you through to the upper level area of Ellis Park Stadium.

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july16b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:02 AM] jul 16 b

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Was this damage similarly caused by spectators on 11 April? - - - Correct.

Photo 26 sir. Does that show damage between those two little cubicles that one can see on the photograph and you can see gate 6 in the background? - - - Yes.

Damage similarly caused by the spectators getting into the stadium unlawfully? - - - Yes.

Photo 27 is that the same view looking from the stadium the other way? - - - From above gate 6 in the stadium looking towards the east.

Photo 28 similarly in that area? - - - Yes.

Could I go back to photo 7 please Mr Stainton. Can you tell us where photo 7 is taken? - - - On the northern side of the stadium on the outer perimeter fencing positioned approximately over there.

At the main gate area? - - - Correct.

Was this damage similarly caused on that night? - - - Yes.

Might this be a convenient stage Mr Chairman?

COMMISSIONER: Yes indeed, we will adjourn until 14:00.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july16b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:02 AM] temp- statements

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

(p31- Stainton) D "D"

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july16c.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:02 AM] temp- statements

can continue on that way to the south-west corner. You evacuate from each corner down into the mote areas and you can move along here.

That is below the last row of seats if is off the grand stand area, it is just on the side of the actual playing field, is that correct? - - - It is below the playing field but it is either on the east or the west side.

And below the last row of seats at the bottom of the stand? - - - Correct.

CHAIRMAN: Is it below the lowest seats? - - - It is below the lower seats, in other words you go down those last set of metal steps that appear in gate - in photo 39, you get into this area below the last row of spectator seats on the stands, lower than the last row of seats, it is also a little lower than the playing area and it is in other words very simple what it is - what it is called a mote area on the whole of the one side, the long side of the playing field.

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july16c.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:02 AM] jul 16 d

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/jul16d.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:02 AM] jul 16 d

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/jul16d.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:02 AM] jul 16 d

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/jul16d.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:02 AM] jul 16 d

Natal Amazulu was my club at that stage.

Now I am sure after the events of 11 April you may have done a lot more research about the background of the South African soccer and problems but if we can stop at the 11th April. What was your knowledge of the history of the rivalry between Orlando Pirates and Kaizer Chiefs? - - - On 11 April I had quite a lot of knowledge because I was given this knowledge by the joint operational teams.

Between your taking up office and 11 April, how many games were you involved in, soccer games were you involved in the preparations for, not counting the Orlando Pirates and Kaizer Chiefs' game of 11 April? - - - One soccer.

And other games, rugby then, some rugby games? - - - Yes, we had had six rugby games.

And was the other soccer game that you said you were involved in the game of 7 April between Kaizer Chiefs and Jomo Cosmos? - - - Sorry, I was incorrect just now, that was my third game, the Pirates/Chiefs game was my third game. There were two very close together. But the one on the 7th, you are correct.

Kaizer Chiefs and Jomo Cosmos played on the 7th, four days before the big game that we are concerned with in these proceedings. - - - That is right.

That is one you were involved in and one other? - - - Yes.

I think it is common cause that the choice of a venue was not yours, it was decided long before you even arrived on the scene by some other people but were you at all apprehensive when you were planning for the 11 April game being a game between Kaizer Chiefs and Orlando Pirates at Ellis Park? - - - I was apprehensive.

Why? - - - With football it is generally very exciting games. With the Pirates and Chiefs and looking back at the records as I answered your question earlier on, I had lengthy discussions with all the joint operational members. I was apprehensive that it was a game, another football game, but I was also confident and that is why I stopped just now when I said I was apprehensive, I wanted to say confident in what we were planning to do and with all the various members of the joint operational team. As general manager, there are very professional people in the joint operational team who concentrate on safety and security.

Who of the officials did you feel confident to have on your team because of their greater experience in this field, specifically in soccer? - - - The first person is our stadium manager, Mr Coetzee. Mr Coetzee has 30 years experience with the police force. He left the police force as a major before he had joined up with Ellis Park Stadium. All the other contracted security companies' senior personnel, managing directors, two of them are managing directors, and the other one is the operational directors, all are ex SAPS members. One of the gentlemen with 14 years experience with the public order police, in those days it was riot control and .. (intervenes)

Who is that? - - - Roger from AIN. And then there is Mr van Rooyen from Wolf, the managing director of Wolf. He left the SAPS as a captain and he - sorry, Roger's surname escapes me for the moment. I apologise.

Where does Roger come from? - - - AIN. The other gentleman from Stallion was also in the SAPS, he left there as a warrant officer. And then over and above that we have the SAPS themselves, Captain Basson and a number of the other gentlemen who represented the SAPS. Mr Attwell, it is Roger Houston.

Was the state of the log, that is the soccer log and the importance of the particular game to the two teams at that particular time, would that have been a weighing factor for you at all? - - - Exciting but not necessarily weighing.

Were you aware in your preparations for that game of the 11th and up to that night of any past trouble between these two teams at Ellis Park? - - - I was aware of two early incidences between Pirates and Kaizer Chiefs, the one is in 1998, 10 October 1998, which was a day game, a Saturday day game, kick off at 16:00. And then the second one was 13 June 2000 which was a Tuesday night game, a kick off at 20:00.

Mr Chairman, I propose asking Mr Stainton to tell the court what he understood to have been the problem at these two earlier games in the run up. I notice we are close to 16:00, is this a convenient time or may we proceed perhaps with the first of the two games and see whether we can in a nutshell get from Mr Stainton what he understood had been the problems on 10 October 1998. I am in your hands.

CHAIRMAN: I think it is a convenient stage.

MR ATTWELL: Is this a convenient stage.

CHAIRMAN: We will resume at 10:00 tomorrow morning.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS:

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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3.5 In a soccer culture it is common for there to be a rush for tickets about an hour before the beginning of any play. That places a tremendous pressure on the sellers of the tickets that leads to frustration and tension which then ends up in conflict. The soccer spectators prefer to buy their tickets on the day of the game at the ticket offices and do not make use of Computicket.

4. A meeting is held on Wednesday, 14 October, the date of this letter, at 11:00 at Ellis Park Stadium for a 'post mortem' concerning what had happened on the 10th. All role players were present with the exception of the PSL. The meeting was unanimous in that the reasons set out above, all contributed to violence and expressed their disappointment that there was no representative of the PSL at this meeting.

5. The meeting also expressed its concern concerning the security officers appointed by the PSL who do not perform their functions properly. Most only are interested in attending the game and watch the game. Ellis Park management undertook to take up this matter urgently with the PSL to address the shortcome and to prevent a likely occurrence of the future. The (inaudible) are allegedly going to be looking or to taking the matter of security responsibility down to club level.

6. Discussions took place between Louis Luyt (jnr) who at that time was occupying your job, the one you now have the general manager of Ellis Park."

- - - My job is a combination of that and another gentleman.

But in this case he was doing the sort of function you are performing now. - - - That is correct.

Mr Coetzee, that is the head of Ellis Park security, the gentleman referred to already in your evidence. - - - Yes.

6. "And the acting station commander of Jeppe. The seriousness of the situation and the South African Police concerned, was conveyed and all parties had understanding and sympathy for this viewpoint. They later take steps to try and correct this sort of thing and they will tell Jeppe police station what has been done in this regard. It was also suggested that matches between these two teams be played at a different venue which could accommodate the number of spectators that would attend such a game. The management of Ellis Park understood that it was their responsibility to safeguard the situation at their venue.

7. The situation in the future will be closely monitored and the office of the police in conjunction with their services are going to, if necessary, take steps to prohibit future games if there is a likely situation such as 10 October to be repeated.

8. Orders were issued to the investigating officer to investigate the recruitment and appointment of security officers by the PSL. The concern or suspicion at the time was that these people were not appointed in terms of the Act and the prescriptions of the Act on Security Officers and the office of the station commander, Jeppe, was of the opinion that the PSL did not appreciate the seriousness of the safety aspect as sport gatherings. The appointment and use of security officers at sport gatherings will be monitored and investigated in the future."

Have you had sight of this particular document in your run up to the game of 11 April? - - - No.

Are you able to say whether these meetings did take place that they referred to here between the management of Ellis Park and the police or are you not? - - - I can say I do not know.

You do not know. I then like to turn if I may to the preparations for the game of 11 April. I notice that there was one other game that you also were going to refer to yesterday which is another game you wished to refer to, June 2000. Mr Chairman, I notice it is 11:15. Would this be an opportune moment?

CHAIRMAN: We can adjourn until 11:30. We will adjourn.

PROCEEDINGS ADJOURN

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july17b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:03 AM] jul 17 b

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july17b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:03 AM] jul 17 b

Are you aware of any regulations in the PSL or SAPA set up that puts the responsibility for security on the so-called home team or home team the one using their grounds for a particular game? - - - I understand there are certain regulations governing the PSL contract but I am not too specific on the (inaudible) or the information.

Now we will deal in the minutes that we are going to deal with the issue of ticketing, but I would like you to turn to one of the documents in the Ellis Park file. It is Ellis Park 12, EP12, if you would. May I just make this point Mr Chairman, in your particular copy you will have the original of the top two tickets which you may see there. Those would be the originals, the green ones. All the other parties will really have a photocopy of those originals. Each one has a distinctive number and that is why it is impossible to give everybody an original. I just want to confirm EP12 Mr Chairman. If you have found the document then may just confirm with you that it is a green coloured document.

CHAIRMAN: Yes.

MR ATWELL: The rest have others but we do have spares if anyone wishes to see what the actual original looked like or (inaudible) just have different numbers on. Why we deal with the issue of ticketing because it is going to be an issue that will surface in the discussions Mr Stainton. If one has a look at these particular tickets, the first thing that strikes one is that there are no seating numbers, blocks, grand stands or anything else that appears on it, is that correct? - - - That is correct, and it says unreserved.

Now these are tickets for that particular game, the 11 April game 2001. - - - That is right. That is indicated on the ticket.

Just to assist the court, the top two tickets each have the entrance fee as R5,00 on them, the lower one has an entrance fee of R15,00 on it. Can you just describe the difference between the two tickets? - - - R5,00 are for juveniles and R15,00 for adults.

Now is the practise to have unreserved seats a standard Ellis Park practise for all sports events at Ellis Park or is it purely for soccer? - - - If you have concerts you have unreserved seating as well, but if you are referring to the difference between rugby and football at this stage football is unreserved unless it is an international football game there might be different requirements then.

Now the issue of unreserved seating is a rather hot issue in soccer. Whose decision is it that the seating that Ellis Park offers for soccer games is unreserved, whose decision was that? - - - I would say it is a soccer decision, based on all operators are aware of it and understand it.

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july17b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:03 AM] jul 17 c

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/jul17c.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:03 AM] jul 17 c

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/jul17c.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:03 AM] jul 17 c

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/jul17c.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:03 AM] jul 17 c

EP7. If you would turn to that. I am only going to stop because it obviously will reflect many of the things that were actually in the minutes. The ... (indistinct) once again is one must differentiate, especially in between preparations for the two different games that were going to be conducted, but I would like you to turn to the third page, they are numbered at the bottom of the pages, page 3, in the middle of the page JVR which if one looks at the initial list of people present, would suggest that this is ... (intervenes) - - - The managing director of Wolff.

Mr Van Rooyen of Wolff, his main responsibility, we have heard, is security at the stadium ... (indistinct) inside, is that correct? - - - Yes.

"Mr Chairman, every time we have a problem, a huge problem, specifically gates 4, 5 and 6. We are talking here about radio wire, if you look a little higher up, but we have to wait 15 minutes, firstly and secondly could we have the horses back."

It was obviously a question of having the mounted police in attendance there as well. But the problem is again raised there that there is always a problem, a huge problem at specifically gates 4, 5 and 6. That is what Wolff Security is saying here, is that correct? - - - That is correct.

And if one goes to page 7 of the papers we are talking here about the number, I think of security personnel to be supplied by Kaiser Chief Security, if you go to page 6 towards the bottom you will see, alright Kaiser Chief Security and there is a commitment for the Pirates game 260, where would they have been ... (indistinct) how many selling points, do you need any ticket offices, I think that was a question ... (indistinct) and over the page number 7 is a discussion of the number of ticket offices and the question of how many ticket offices may be needed. CC there, that is Mr Coetzee, about a third of the way down says:

"I am a little concerned about the 40 000, they never buy tickets from the outside, they always buy here and then I have a problem, the I would rather give the containers again as we did in the past, but I must know now whether we must get more containers, I must order them."

Do you see that? - - - Yes.

And then lower down, Mr Mailuza for Kaiser Chiefs says:

"For the Pirates game there will be 30. Expect a full house on that."

And you say "absolutely". So a full house is expected and more ticket booths are required, is that right? A full house is expected, is that correct? - - - I say the word "absolutely", but I cannot confirm that that is absolutely that there will be 30 ticket offices for Pirate games or a full house.

Are you, well what did you mean by absolutely, did you expect a full house? - - -

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/jul17c.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:03 AM] jul 17 d

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july17d.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:04 AM] jul 17 d

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july17d.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:04 AM] jul 17 d

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july17d.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:04 AM] jul 17 d

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july17d.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:04 AM] jul 17 d

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july17d.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:04 AM] jul 17 d

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july17d.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:04 AM] jul 17 d

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july17d.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:04 AM] jul 17 d

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july17d.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:04 AM] jul 17 d

A little way down the page he goes on:

We have already got the tickets for the 7th already pre-printed.

That is for the other game, that is not for the 11th. - - - That is right.

Then there is a Mr R Kriek, RK, right down towards the bottom of the page, about the sound side. Do you see that? - - - Yes.

He is from (Indistinct). That is the name mentioned before that the whole issue would be taken up. - - - Yes.

So he attended this meeting and he says:

About the sound side, now we are talking about that sound at gate 4, 5, 6 area which will help getting people moved away from that area to other gates, to relieve pressure on gates 4, 5, 6.

- - - Exactly.

About the sound side, usually during the soccer matches you have got crowd control systems on the two outside perimeters. We usually use hired stuff for that and on the field itself, there is going to be (indistinct), we just bring in equipment like monitors.

Then Mr Laubscher raises the issue of screen at North Park on the outside. Now Mr Laubscher is from a place I see on the minutes, Paragon Pictures. J. Laubscher. Was this person brought into this meeting to deal with the question of the screen. The minutes for April 3 which is EP8, he is the last one before POPS not being present, Paragon Pictures. - - - Yes.

He seems to have been there for this particular meeting, to deal with the question of the screen. - - - For the additional equipment yes.

All the equipment. Then you ask and I have recorded as having said:

I don't know for the Cosmos game, I don't think so.

That is the first game, not the one on the 11th. - - - That is right.

I think the question we are looking at and we will be discussing afterwards with Chiefs themselves, is on the Pirates.

This was in relation to the screen, correct?

I know (indistinct) but obviously there is the cost implications that Chiefs to consider.

Is there anything else on that? Okay then we can run through it again on the Pirates game.

This is the reference to the fact that we are dealing with two separate games in these minutes. We are going to come back to it when we deal with Pirates specifically, right, but you have raised the cost implication as being the only objection at this stage for Kaizer Chiefs. - - - (Indistinct)

Right. Then the question just lower down is: Crowd control vehicles and (indistinct) from JD the Nyalas and you confirm Nyalas, is that public order policing. Yes. They are not here, so we will have to follow up with them, we know that. Now it then seems to me that one can take a line across the middle of this page because the discussions seems to turn to the game of the 11th.

There in the middle you will see: traffic management for the Pirates game.

We are busy in the middle of page 5. - - - Can I ask you to go back (indistinct) to my questions.

They are not here though, so we will have to follow up with them.

JD: They will be available.

Though they are not here, they will be available, meaning the Nyalas? - - - JD is from SAPS.

Oh, so the Nyalas will be available. - - - Ja, so.. (intervenes)

Okay. - - - He (indistinct) for the SAPS.

SAPS and the they there are the Nyalas? - - -

Yes. They will be available and JD is.. (intervenes)

Okay. - - - I think his name is Mr Dolton.

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july17d.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:04 AM] jul 17 e

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july17e.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:05 AM] jul 17 e

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july17e.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:05 AM] jul 17 e

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july17e.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:05 AM] jul 17 e

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0 / ,,! 9 !,0 / / 11! !. / 0 !)2 3 3 3 @* file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july17e.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:05 AM] jul 17 e

Or heard about. The police had expressed some concern.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Attwell, you will have to work towards a point of convenience on which we can adjourn. I think the witness is also tired now. I think it is already seven minutes past.

MR ATTWELL: I have no problem if we call a halt to the proceedings today.

CHAIRMAN: We will adjourn until 10:00 tomorrow morning.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july17e.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:05 AM] jul 18a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july18a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:06 AM] jul 18a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july18a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:06 AM] jul 18a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july18a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:06 AM] jul 18a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july18a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:06 AM] jul 18a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july18a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:06 AM] jul 18a

So from 17:00 to 20:00 you were continually moving around in and outside the stadium? - - - That is correct. For example if I came over here and I was monitoring the situation at the entering point over here through the channels and at gate 10, I would just walk down this isle which is similar to the one over there and I would be able to see the stadium and to what extent it was filling up.

Now you mentioned that you did actually venture into the streets. What did you notice about the parking in the immediate environment of the stadium? - - - I cannot comment about the parking. I did not venture into the streets all the way up the road. This intersection over here is manned by the Metro Traffic and what they do is they block off this road between here and there and this one now has a traffic light. In the past it did not have a traffic light. They put metal barriers between there and the Metro Traffic use it as their base outside Ellis Park Stadium. So when I go here, this area is congested with traffic as the VIP parking, the official soccer spectators and general parking in the technical colleague sides, they would access over here. So there is traffic coming in there but no traffic congestion that I could view.

But that is limited access traffic for that period as well. It is closed off to the general public. They cannot park there where you were moving around. - - - Without special parking tickets, no.

Right. So you did not venture into the general streets around the stadium? - - - No, as I said I went out there and these streets here which are all part of the inner circle from the council areas.

Was there parking there where people parked? Can they park? - - - They can park on these parameter roads over here and again there is entry through with mechanised parking tickets to go into these areas over here. The eastern suite parking and to this area over here which is where we park cars and over there.

So very limited monitoring of general parking in the general streets open to the public? - - - By myself, yes.

Did you notice any problems the little bit that you did see on this lower level of this? - - - I saw no problems with traffic.

Might this be an opportune moment to take the first adjournment, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: We will resume at 11:30.

PROCEEDINGS ADJOURN

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july18a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:06 AM] jul 18b

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july18b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:07 AM] jul 18b

You are referring for the record purposes now to the northern area behind gate 4, that perimeter fence, the main gate area? - - - That is correct.

Yes. Was there any other reports you received of trouble anywhere else? We now on the entry level at perimeter fence level on the south west and again on the north there is trouble, any other reports of significant areas of problems, being encountered? - - - As I indicated earlier corner of Curry and Subright there was quite a few people trying to break through the gate over there, which is a regular gate. The pedestrian access is not permitted through there, we only do the regular gates. The vehicle was closed and then as the certain vehicles were arriving late were trying to come through people would try and run through at the same time. So it was a matter of controlling the pedestrian vehicles, I mean the vehicles coming through and excluding the supporters.

No reports up to about 19:15 that evening concerning trouble in the stadium itself? - - - The only - we did not have reports until much later so at that point in time (inaudible).

Right. - - - At approximately 19:30 as I said I was positioned in this area and around, I went down via the walkway between gates 10 and 11 and I viewed the inside of the stadium and I saw that the bottom section had filled up quite adequately, but the upper level was still quite empty at approximately 19:30. I then radioed our person who has contact with the MEC on the field and asked them to have the MEC which is Putco Mufami talk over his roving microphone which would be heard through the stadium sound systems which are positioned internally and externally as discussed previously and to ask them to start moving to the upper levels.

Now just for the records purposes Putco is attached to which institution? - - - He is the PRO for Kaizer Chiefs and acts as MEC of the games.

Did you hear if that announcement was ever made. Did you hear such announcement being made? - - - I did not hear it personally but I was advised that it definitely did happen.

Why would you suggest you did not hear it personally if you were in the stadium area that time? - - - I probably heard it but did not register it. Yes did not register it.

Okay. We have got to 19:30. At that same time I communicated via the radio with Morris Douglas and I said Morris are you sure you printed the correct amount of tickets.

Morris Douglas is the man who works for you and is in charge of tickets? - - - Correct.

Yes. - - - And I spoke to him via the radio and I said are you sure because the upper level seems quite empty and he assured me that that would change very fast and they had printed the 62,000 tickets and no more tickets would be printed. That was confirmed in that conversation.

I want to understand from you what prompted you to enquire about whether he printed the correct amount or number of tickets. Were you concerned there were too few, too many? - - - Too few.

Too few tickets? - - - Yes because I saw that the - at that stage we knew that the ticket offices had just about sold out of their allocated tickets on this side. At that stage we had a lot of discussions and via the radio of the problems encountered with the north Park Lane ticket sellers in that area and we are standing over here looking at the upper level and I enquired why the upper level was not as full as I would have presumed it would be if all the tickets had been sold out. So in hindsight it might sound a bit of humour on that night but it was a sort of a debate between two colleagues on - he is an accountant, astute accountant whether he could count or not, was really what the discussion was, but the reason why I asked that was are you sure that you printed the correct amount. He assured me yes and he said that it would change very fast, which is exactly what it did do. The upper level between that the 19:30 and 20:00 did fill up but not to the term the word saturation point, there were still seating easily visible on this side and people walking around comfortably inside the stadium.

At what time did you still notice that being the position? - - - The last time I witnessed the inside of the stadium was between 19:50 and approximately 19:50 and I viewed that when I was - when I ran off to the joint operational centre.

Was the filling of the upper level of the stadium do you think a natural thing or was it a reaction to the announcement that the spectators should go and do that. Would they normally have filled it up anyway or was the announcement, the impetus they needed to go and move towards the upper levels or don't you know? - - - I think - no I do know, I think it would be an additional measure because of the PA systems, obviously for that night we had introduced additional sound systems, with roving mikes on both the south west corner and the north east corner where anybody could - not anybody, where certain members of the security companies who could speak a multitude of languages would indicate to the spectators that this area here was now closed. I heard the communication at about quarter past, 19:15 that the gate 4 area had been closed and they were rescheduling or reshuffling people to 7, 8 and 9 or try and get them out to number 1, entrance 1.

Okay you said now 19:50 you noticed the last time the inside of the stadium, there was still room at the top, as far as you could see for some more spectators. - - - Prior to me going through to the joint operational centre the ticket offices in that area had been almost turned over. There are ten - there was a photograph we saw beforehand. They are quite solid ticket booths but a few people could possibly turn it over and they were endeavouring to turn over the ticket offices with the ticket sellers inside right between, this is a solid brick wall, there is a red gate where we evacuated the ticket sellers through in order to get away from the criminal element of the crowd who were taking matters totally in their own hands.

Did you personally witness that? - - - I did not personally witness the ticket booths being turned over but I was right there at that gate when we allowed the ticket sellers through.

And what time was that? - - - That again was approximately between 19:30 and 19:50.

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july18b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:07 AM] jul 18c

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july18c.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:08 AM] jul 18c

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july18c.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:08 AM] jul 18c

here into this first three, four steps was very easily made, my concern, because I was told then by Mr Grobbelaar and Mr Taljaard that the area here was where there were problems with the people who had been injured and my first thing was, why didn't they not come down, why did they not move down, and I could not find that answer so I went up there to have a look and then for the next, probably ten, 12 minutes I was busy just helping. I mean that was my first requirement, personal need was to help the injured and regrettably I was just carrying the dead people down.

Alright, if you turn to photo 54 in the Ellis Park file, that is EP2, photo 54, the second-last photo. That is the north-east corner? - - - That is right.

That shows that gangway up to the entrance outside gate 4? - - - That is right.

You were - where on this photo would you have been, down at the bottom at the base of those steps somewhere that one can see? - - - When I first arrived I would have been in that position yes.

Did you have any trouble moving up? You said you went up that gangway to go and assist the people. Did you have any trouble getting up that alleyway or gangway? - - - As I said the first few rows were no problem, and then I was encountering the security officials and my staff assisting, bringing the injured down. So from that area yes it did get crowded, but there was no - it was not a concentrated mass of people if that is the question.

You did not find people crushed against each other, standing up against the railings on both sides of the railings and pressed on the outsides by the seats, virtually unable to move? - - - On this picture there are 33 rows of seats from the top - from the top of the red seats down to the bottom, so up to row 16, 18, it was easily accessible.

And could you see how these people, while you were up there, could you see how they had been injured? Were people lying on top of one another, had they been crushed against the guard rails, had they fallen down? - - - At that stage the guard or support rail was still upright, and we moved on either side of the rail. When we got to the top I was assisting bringing people down, but in the top corner there were bodies piled up and people piled up yes. At the top, right on the top as you enter the tunnel or the ... (indistinct)

Between the two little cement walls that come down? - - - Yes.

CHAIRMAN: This is before the second goal? - - - I did not witness any of the goals, I was busy there, it is only when we clearing the people down that - then I went back and I found out that the goals had been scored already, we had - I was on the radio calling for medical who were already responding, medical on the outside already responding to the situation.

I am trying to ascertain whether you managed to see injured persons prior to any goal being scored or after the first goad was scored, or ... (inaudible) - - - I did not see, I saw the injured people before the first goal was scored.

MR ATTWELL: Might this be an opportune moment to take the lunch adjournment?

CHAIRMAN: We will adjourn until 14:00.

PROCEEDINGS ADJOURN

------

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july18c.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:08 AM] jul 18d

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july18d.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:09 AM] jul 18d

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july18d.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:09 AM] jul 18d

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july18d.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:09 AM] jul 18d

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july18d.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:09 AM] jul 18d

As documented to us, yes.

If we know what happened this is a rather anaemic account of a tragedy isn't it? - - - Not very detailed, yes.

In fact the game was abandoned after 20:30 anyway wasn't it? It started fractionally late and it ran just short of the full first half, what was it? 13 minutes short of a full half wasn't it? - - - Ja, it was just after 20:30.

So it would probably be closer to 20:40 that the game was stopped. That is the report of AIN security. Let's turn to EP15, which is the one from Wolf, and have a look at that as it's recorded in your JOC. It starts a little later, it's in Afrikaans so if you, I may need your help. It sounds like: "Gas rapporteer", can you help me, what does that mean? - - - Ek is heeltemal tweetalig maar ek weet nie wat gas beteken nie.

MR UNKNOWN: Gos.

MR ATTWELL: Gos, is that the name of a person?

MR UNKNOWN: JOC in Afrikaans.

MR ATTWELL: Oh, JOC in Afrikaans, right. "16:00 Hekke oop, beman, beheer beamptes bevestig." That's gates are opening, we know that 16:00 the gates were supposed to be opened, hopefully manned as well, that was confirmed. "16:10", the names of various people are mentioned that are on gate duty I would imagine? - - - As you see at the top it says Wolf, he is responding, really it's a JOC report for Wolf, he is dealing a lot with the Wolf radio contacts.

Right so these are the Wolf officials at the various points. "16:45 Koos", I don't know who Koos is, is that Koos? - - - Koos is the managing director for Wolf, it is Koos van Rooyen.

Koos van Rooyen, managing director of Wolf. - - - And he had positioned himself, he flew up from specifically for this event.

Right. "Hy vra dat ekstra", is it "bokse by hek 4 geplaas moet word, reël met Ellis Park, Mike vra bokse by hek 9 ook geplaas moet word." Is it boxes? - - - Special boxes for, when we discussed yesterday, tearing off the ticket stubs.

So merely for rubbish really? - - - Ja.

Right. "17:00 Pieter van PSL rapporteer", is that a representative from PSL reporting to the JOC? - - - That's correct.

Do you know Pieter's surname, PSL? - - - Regrettably not.

Not? Do you know the gentleman Pieter? - - - I have met Pieter, yes.

You have met Pieter. And there is a Pieter from PSL is there? - - - Yes.

Okay. "17:10 Koos vra dat die mikrofoon na hek 4 gestuur word. Chaka bevestig dat die mikrofoon reeds daar is." So Koos, who we now know who it is, Mr van Rooyen, asked that a microphone be sent to gate 4, and it was confirmed that it is already there. "18:00" ..(intervenes) - - - Sorry, Chaka is Mr Coetzee.

Mr Coetzee, your man? - - - Our security ..(intervenes)

Yes. "18;00 SAP polisiediens rapporteer", so presumably at the JOC. "18:10", this is ten past six, "rol hekke by hek 4 en 5 bly toe, Zaccaria gaan uit." Is that right? Toegemaak? Toegang?

MR UNKNOWN: It keeps on closing.

MR ATTWELL: Bly toegang, is that what it says, it keeps closing, trouble with the electronics? If you don't know about it we will clear it up later with Wolf. - - - Ja.

Maybe it's a purely technical problem they had. "18:15, hekke begin optel, hek 4 besig", so at quarter past six in the evening gate 4 busy, right? - - - That, you know sorry if you can go back to 18:10, that was probably saying that the roller shutter gates at that stage were still closed down because we were using the turnstile entry points.

Yes. - - - And that would be a request to have that opened so we could use the channels, looking at the timing, but, as you said maybe we should get that through Wolf Security.

We will clear that up with Wolf. Right: "18:50 Koos", we know who that is, "vra dat AIN en SAPS en die perde eenheid", that's the mounted police, "ontplooi word by hek 4 tot 6. Reël dit so, Erwin moet ook uitgestuur word." Erwin is Erwin Law, is that right? - - - (no audible reply)

So here we have a request that the police, the mounted police and one of your security arms is to be deployed at gates 4 to 6. - - - That's right.

And Erwin, Mr Law, is he from another company? - - - He is from Stallion.

Stallion also must be sent to gates 4 to 6, so there seems to be some concern at ten to seven at gates 4 to 6. Let's go on. At seven o'clock it looks like, 19:00: "Hekke tel vinnig op. Hek 4 tot 6 baie besig". I think they probably mean the amount of people at the various gates. "19:05 Koos vra dat sodra hy die opdrag gee en die stadium is vol dan moet die hekke toegemaak word." He merely requests that once the stadium is full they must close the gates. Would that be the outer gates? - - - No, what happens is that from the JOC they will look, they are looking into the stadium area, and as soon as this area gets relatively full a decision gets made to close the entry points as previously been discussed, so that's that reference. So he's asking tell me when I must start closing it, and then the JOC will tell him.

And those will be the entry gates into the stadium themselves? - - - The actual entry points into the stadium, the physical stadium.

The physical stadium, not the outer gates, the perimeter gates and the fencing, right. 19:15, sorry we must go back to 19:10: "Kaartjies reeds om 19:00 uitverkoop. Duisende mense nog buite die stadium." Ten past seven, tickets all already sold. thousands of people still outside the stadium, ten past seven. Any comment? - - - Well the comment would be that the tickets are selling out, they were not sold out at that stage, they were selling out.

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july18d.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:09 AM] jul 18e

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july18e.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:09 AM] jul 18e

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july18e.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:09 AM] jul 18e

CHAIRMAN: Mr Attwell, I think this witness must be tired, he has been in the witness box for a long time. I think we must adjourn until tomorrow at 09:45.

MR ATTWELL: We did receive such a message, sir, and I think it is with some relief that a number of other people in the court heard that there was a possibility that that could occur as well, sir. So I hear what you say and I can only say that I think I speak for everyone when I say it has been a long day.

CHAIRMAN: But it is not for their benefit, it is for the benefit of the witness.

MR ATTWELL: Thank you.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS:

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july18e.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:09 AM] jul 19a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july19a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:10 AM] jul 19a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july19a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:10 AM] jul 19a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july19a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:10 AM] jul 19a

Metropolitan, strate, die meeste van die strate is nog toegemaak om uit te kom en sukkel nog steeds om uit te kom na die stadion". So he is still having problems in the traffic. The captain who has got a lot on his fork says "Bremmer, I have got your message but at the present moment I have a problem. I have got people lying down here. I will speak to the security as well and I will come back to you". "Ja," says Bremmer "as die Metropolitan Polisie hulle werk gedoen het van die begin, dan was daar nou nie 'n probleem gewees met die verkeer nie ook". So he is most unhappy. At the next entry we have at 20:36:55 someone calling unknown in to the captain from the south "Captain, here on the southern side many people are, too many people coming through the gate but we have got to control them. Everything under control. We have got security on the job". Do you have any problem with that statement at 20:37 roughly too many people coming through the gate on the south? - - - That is consistent with the south side.

Yes, and the game is still on? - - - Yes.

If we can go to page 37 at the top, the time was 20:39 we have Kamfer coming in and saying on the radio to control by the looks of things, oh POP Alexandra operational. "Vir almal se deelname dit is .. (intervenes) - - - Where are you?

I am at the top of page 37, Kamfer appears to be giving a message through and he seems to have been speaking to a number of people we have seen before, but C2 which is Johannesburg POP is also on the line there "Vir almal se deelname, dit is net vir julle kennisname, die game is gekanselleer hoor, die game is gekanselleer hierso by Ellispark" and C2 which is the Johannesburg POP operational room "Bevestig die game is gekanselleer". 20:40. That is I think what we worked out yesterday. - - - That is fine.

Die game is gekanselleer. The next conversation halfway down the page 20:41:34 we have JOC253 speaking to Sergeant Kamfer who has just given the information through. They say captain, I do not know "Captain, the stadium is very bad. Most people had gone through the gate, the fences and the people are injured during the process and there is still a problem outside the gate. We still need more people to come and assist". I do not suppose you have any problems with that cry for help and at 20:42:04 C21B which is Sergeant Kamfer says "According to the security the game has been cancelled. Could you tell me anything about it because the people are busy leaving? If you can give us more information about that". So somebody is starting to leave, busy leaving. - - - Yes.

Over the page 20:43 we have Captain Mkwanazi on the line to somebody. "At the northern side, northeast to the stadium, northeast to the stadium, gate 4. How is the people behaving?" "Ja, terrible, captain. The people are starting to move out from the stadium because it looks like the game is not going on at the moment. Others are moving away from it now but there are people lying down because of the stampede and all of these things that have just taken place just now". Now problem with that as a statement of fact.

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july19a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:10 AM] jul 19b

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july19b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:11 AM] jul 19b

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july19b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:11 AM] jul 19b

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july19b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:11 AM] jul 19b

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july19b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:11 AM] jul 19b

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once, and then we will go back and we will do it a second time and the people - I will ask him to stop at certain points. May I indicate Mr Chairman that we are going to find firstly the people filling up the stadium, moving around. We will also see what I believe are people walking over the top of the north east stand at that area there which will be a matter I will take up with Mr Stainton. There is already going to be comment from the people watching what is going on, but there is a serious problem coming because the stadium is full. We will be seeing people covering their noses at a particular point. I will be asking Mr Stainton about why people will be covering their noses. We are also going to find comments that the things are getting serious in the stadium and that security are not visible. And we are going to see certain Chiefs supporters pushing on the lower red railings, a matter that I will deal with with Mr Stainton and then you will hear in the recording they say that it is now still two minutes before eight, and they wonder whether the game will start on time. You will again see people covering up their noses. There will be comment is there firing outside the stadium. This is like Zimbabwe and then you will see the teams come on and then you will see the referee come on. There is some form of public announcement and you will then see at 14.25 the kick off. That is just the run down, if people will watch it once we will stop for a second viewing at some of those scenes to ask for comment. Thank you. Right now will you just let it run uninterrupted with the sound up please.

VIDEO IS SHOWN.

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july19b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:11 AM] jul 19 c

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july19c.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:12 AM] jul 19 c

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july19c.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:12 AM] jul 19 c

What is that theory? - - - The theory is that when you went up there is an overhang and after I had been there and I was still trying to find out why they did not move down, I was told that people had been trying to break into the suites, had fallen off and at that stage the first notification we had had of that was about 20:11, round about that time, and I found that out afterwards, I did not know it then. So my theory is that if they did not automatically go down and they pushed themselves, and they tried to push themselves back to be under cover from the unruly crowd above, maybe dropping things off or physically falling off. But it still does not get away from the fact that the public - there are - as you can see on the visuals, there is public right there and if such a tragedy has happened right next to them, you now, they should act, and they should have called the security down below.

CHAIRMAN: I do not understand that, because the difficulty is lack of space for movement, they are congested there. Are you suggesting that they must manoeuvre in that congestion to alert somebody else? - - - What I am suggesting is that there are 33 levels of chairs and when I got there I had access up to the first few rows. So communication, ten, 12 metres, if there is a problem they could communicate to two, three rows ahead of them, that would have been my - as a member of public, if I was there that is what I would have done.

With the bugles and everything sounding out there, how do they get heard? - - - Well, they would actually themselves, if you are standing next to something like that or seated next to something like that you would move down and you would call for help. If you cannot be heard then you need to make a physical movement down and actually get assistance.

MR ATTWELL: Might this be a convenient opportunity to take the adjournment?

CHAIRMAN: Yes, we will adjourn until 14:00.

PROCEEDINGS ADJOURN

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july19d.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:13 AM] jul 19d

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july19d.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:13 AM] jul 19d

Thank you Mr Attwell.

MR ATTWELL: Are you happy with the fact that the scaffolding prevent an ambulance from getting onto the field? - - - No I am not happy.

Is that an oversight? It should never have happened? - - - Yes.

Was the reason for the helicopter being called in, inter alia not because ambulances couldn't get onto the field? - - - No.

No? If ambulances could have got straight onto the field, would you have still deployed the helicopter? - - - At that stage all the emergency vehicles had been contacted to try and assist. They were sending ambulances and any medical facilities from all around Johannesburg. So like the ambulance landed and one injured person went off on the ambulance, I mean the helicopter.. (intervenes)

One injured person went off in the helicopter? - - - From what I understand yes.

Yes, well a helicopter can't take too many people, can it? - - - That is right.

But ten or seven or 15 ambulances, if they could have driven on the field, could have gone in and out and taken out quite a lot of people. - - - Yes.

Yes. Could we just go back to 1:35:30. What we are now going to see Mr Chairman is the view behind the northern grandstand from a different camera, not from the ones that we have seen up to now, clearly from, you can switch it off and take it back. I don't think we must, oh have you take it back? At 1:35:24 my notes show a brief break in the transmission up to 30. Just tell us when you get to 1:35:24?

VIDEO IS FAST FORWARDED

Thank you. Can I, sorry.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Attwell, before you get onto that, I think Mr Stainton I think I should say to you that we are honestly trying to find out what went wrong that night, what mistakes we made so that we can correct them. - - - Yes.

And if it is so that some scaffolding were placed in such a manner that it prevented ambulances from going through, you should frankly acknowledge that, so that in future we should not make that mistake again. - - - I understand what you are saying.

I am just giving an example. - - - Yes.

But the important thing is that we are really and honestly trying to find out what went wrong that night and, so that we can improve on that and prevent similar things from happening. - - - Sorry, what I was trying to say is that other ambulances would have been able to go under that scaffolding. But that particular ambulance couldn't. That is what I was trying to do, so that it was not part of the evacuation process, we were taking people to the ambulances because it was easier to do it that way, rather than trying to bring it onto the field. Because you have, there is only one access out of the top of the tunnel and it gets, and it is not that easy up at the top of the tunnel. That is what I was trying to clarify.

MR ATTWELL: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

MR ATTWELL: Can we just have a reading because this confirms my note that there is a break in the transmission here, while they are going to go to another camera. Now I don't want to, the scenes may not be particularly palatable but it is a different view.

The point I am wanting to make with Mr Stainton in doing this and it can go through quite quickly, there is no sound track to this either, is that between 1:35:30 and 1:38:27 which is when Chiefs scored their first goal, we are seeing the scene from a different angle, a ground level camera behind the northern scene.

The point I am wanting to get from Mr Stainton on viewing this is that this view of the scene behind the northern goal, would have been obvious to anybody, before Chiefs' first goal, from the JOC. So that whatever anyone else in the stadium may have seen, the people in the JOC would have been seeing what we are now going to see, before Chiefs' first goal which should be at 1:38:27, as this runs.

So if you could start it at 1:35:30 and run it to 1:38:27, it can run on fast forward. I don't want us to, this is the scene that I am suggesting at the end of this Mr Stainton, that people in the JOC would have had an absolutely unambiguous and clear view of behind the northern goal posts. 1:35:30, let it run to 1:38:27, when Chiefs score the first goal.

TECHNICIAN: Mr Attwell I am at 1:35:17 now.

MR ATTWELL: Well then let it run, we are going to have a little bit of this clip and then just let it run.

VIDEO IS FAST FORWARDED

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july19d.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:13 AM] jul 19e

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july19e.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:14 AM] jul 19e

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july19e.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:14 AM] jul 19e

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july19e.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:14 AM] jul 19e

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CHAIRMAN: Yes. Mr Stainton, I am afraid we are going to adjourn now and on Monday not start with you as Mr Attwell has explained and perhaps come back to you after we have dealt with Mr Phillips. I am sure you will appreciate that the reason why we do not easily let go of things is because of the position you occupy and being a senior person ... (inaudible). - - - Yes, I understand.

MR ATTWELL: Mr Chairman, there is one last aspect, some of my learned colleagues, and I think one of them is going to voice the opinion of some of them, have a request to make concerning a possible visit to Ellis Park Stadium. May I ask that they perhaps just before the adjournment be allowed to take that matter somewhat further.

MR JORDAAN: Mr Chairman, I speak on behalf of all the legal representatives in this regard and we feel that it is imperative that at some stage or another, perhaps sooner rather than later, an inspection in loco be conducted.

CHAIRMAN: The stadium is here, I am able to move from the north side to the south.

MR JORDAAN: You are able to see, sir, what you can see from the JOC and so on, evidence that you cannot pick up from photographs or from ... (drops voice)

CHAIRMAN: How do you know I am not able to pick it up?

MR JORDAAN: Well we cannot, sir, we cannot assist you properly.

CHAIRMAN: But counsel can assist us properly, they can go there by themselves and inspect the stadium and make decisions.

MR JORDAAN: Sir, it is our request and I can take it no further than that.

CHAIRMAN: Well, we will consider it. I think it is a suggestion that we will apply our minds to very seriously.

MR JORDAAN: Thank you, sir.

MR ENGELBRECHT: Mr Chairman ... (inaudible), especially the witness now in the dock who knows the stadium and of his personnel that may be in logo and in situ indicated to you, Mr Chairman and the honourable additional member, there are certain things which the photograph does not show, so I endorse the request.

CHAIRMAN: There are other things which we may be missing here.

MR ENGELBRECHT: That is indeed so, which we do not appreciate necessarily. We may believe since we inspected the premises ourselves we now understand the photographs for instance. Now we take it for granted that what we see in the photograph other people can also see, for instance you, Mr Chairman and the honourable additional member, and then we are in fact without intending to do so misleading you because we think that you see certain things which you might not see but we assume that you see them, if you understand what the position is, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: Well we will consider going there and will consider the validity of your statement.

MR ENGELBRECHT: As it pleases you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: I think what we will do is, maybe will discuss when we have problems of this nature.

MR ENGELBRECHT: At the appropriate stage, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Attwell?

MR ATTWELL: Mr Chairman, obviously initially I had assumed that it may well have been the intention of the entire commission and the relevant parties to go there. That was probably presumptuous on my part. As the evidence has unfolded it has appeared to me that there may be some parties who do have some problem orientating themselves, especially as the evidence unfolds with some of the elements of their evidence. We do have the opportunity in the sense that tomorrow the commission is not formally sitting. If the entire commission for whatever reason decided that they did not want an official inspection in loco, Mr Stainton has assured me that he is prepared and with his staff to make at any particular time, even on one of the days we do not sit, for us to go along even if it is not the entire commission but certainly for all counsel to go. But that of course then means does the chairman and the honourable additional member also wish to be party of an official visit.

CHAIRMAN: Not tomorrow.

MR ATTWELL: Not tomorrow?

CHAIRMAN: Yes, certainly not because we accepted counsel's suggestion that we should not sit on Friday but obviously .. (inaudible).

MR ATTWELL: Yes.

CHAIRMAN: I think in any event we should go there after Mr Phillips has testified.

MR ATTWELL: I am quite happy with that. Now Mr Phillips, is the chairman suggesting it is while Mr Phillips is still here so that when we come back Mr Phillips can be taken on, on any issues? Not necessarily?

CHAIRMAN: We cannot run the risk of not having Mr Phillips' evidence fully taken by Tuesday afternoon.

MR ATTWELL: That was my feeling too.

CHAIRMAN: We will have to deal with him first and then we will consider thereafter the issue of the inspection.

MR ATTWELL: Fine.

CHAIRMAN: We will adjourn until Monday.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS:

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july23a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:15 AM] jul 23a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july23a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:15 AM] jul 23a

FIFA, SAFA, over various issues and it changed the onus and responsibility of the security onto the home club. This is a resolution that was put to the board of governors. What I have is no knowledge or remembrance as to whether that was actually adopted by the board of governors. It came right towards the end of my .. (intervenes)

I see it is dated 1 September 1998, two months before you left. - - - Yes.

Now coming to your categories, you say A is a high risk. What do you mean? How do you relate to the high risk? On the fence side or just out. - - - Essentially it would take into account the anticipated number of supporters of the game, visiting the stadium that was going to be played in. It would take into account other aspects, relationships between the two clubs. Some clubs have more shall we say passionate rivalries than others. There is a whole range of factors that could affect a categorisation and the risk pattern. It could vary. I mean something could be an A category game one season may not be the next season. It is again a judgment or view.

So these categories have nothing to do with the anticipated capacity? - - - Well, I would not say nothing to do. I mean that would form part of but only one part.

In a game between Kaizer Chiefs and Orlando Pirates, how would you classify that? - - - Well, a game between Kaizer Chiefs and Orlando Pirates would also be a category A high risk game because it is certainly the biggest game in and it will always attract a high number of spectators. I think perhaps there is a lack of understanding in South Africa generally as to the statute of this game. I would probably put it somewhere certainly in the top 10 in the world in terms of domestic club match. If you would think of matches such as Glasgow Celtic, Glasgow Rangers (indistinct), Liverpool matches to United, Chiefs and Pirates would in my estimation would run certainly in the top 10 club games of world football and I do not think there is a total understanding of the statute of the game within South Africa. I remember on occasion when the Springboks were playing the All Blacks at Ellis Park in a Trinations test match and it was not sold out. There were tickets available. This was a match between the finest rugby teams in the world in a test match. Seven or eight miles down the road on the same day at the same time Kaizer Chiefs were playing Orlando Pirates at FNB int a friendly, not a league match, a friendly match in the beginning of the season and there was 80 000 people in the stadium and another 20 000 outside trying to get in. So you have to put these things in perspective. Orlando Pirates and Kaizer Chiefs is a huge event in soccer terms and from the security point of view it would always fall into a maximum security category.

Now you told us that you drafted security measures based on the SAFA as well as the FIFA principles. Am I correct? - - - No, I think we had to change our regulations during the time, during the period taking into account sort of old SAFA regulations and new SAFA regulations because SAFA would take their regulations from FIFA and many of those regulations were changed as you would have an incident take place somewhere in the world, Guatemala. FIFA regulations in terms of security would change. Those regulations would then be communicated to the associations of each country. In this case SAFA. SAFA would then community with their leagues, their domestic leagues to make sure that they are aware of any changes in sort of football security requirements.

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july23a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:15 AM] jul 23b

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july23b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:15 AM] jul 23b

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july23b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:15 AM] jul 23b

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july23b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:15 AM] jul 23b

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july23b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:15 AM] jul 23b

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conditions. Offer him the nice , and rugby stadiums generally. Okay for the lucky few in Johannesburg, but not when you get out in the rest of the country. Offer them the luxury conditions. They have to put up with appalling infrastructure. How many times appalling (inaudible) herded around by untrained security people, often treated with a degree of, could I say violence from the security. It is not an easy lesson to get across, it is not an easy education process to start, but if nothing else incidents like this should actually start that process, because I think it would be far too easy to say that the problems can be overcome by just having better ticketing systems, by having bigger stadiums etcetera. That helps but it is only one part of it.

CHAIRMAN: Sorry before you go on, can I just ask you specifically about the evening games, midweek games because I mean some of the recommendations that were made they really make sense and if people could be educated into the culture of arriving early, combine that with tying tickets to the seats, that would work, I think it will go a long way to addressing the problem. You need people to arrive on time, so that there will be no pressure at teh gates, but with regard to midweek games bearing in mind that people work until 17:00 and the game starts at 19:00, I am not so sure how that - because you still have a problem, the people have best of intentions not being able to arrive in time they cannot help it, they still arrive late and even if their tickets are tied to a particular seats the mere fact that they are anxious to get there, the game is said to be starting at 19:00. It does not say but I am just concern that you still find pushing and shoving and the pressure because they do not want to miss the kick off. How would that help. I am concerned about these midweek games because I do not see how they - this problem can help to be solved.

- - - I agree with you, I also share that concern, midweek evening games always gave me the biggest problems, especially when Chiefs are playing in Johannesburg. The only real solution is to have specifically designed stadiums with more access points, to have a cordon (inaudible) around the stadium. If you have an all ticket match. The technique that will be used in Europe largely is to have a cordon of police maybe up to a quarter of a mile out from the stadium environs, so that the only people through that cordon would be people with tickets. Now you will still have a collection of people with no tickets still trying to pressurise. The difference is that they are pressurising say a quarter of a mile from the stadium. But to do that and it can only be done with a massive police presence. You will have to cordon off every access road to the stadium, set up these sort of barriers and that is the only guaranteed effective way you could prevent sort of last minute crowding. It is breaking up the flooding. Or stadiums with more turnstiles, more access points, so that you can funnel people through quick. There is no easy answer to it.

Yes thank you.

MR LEDWABA: You said in view of the event classification, say A category (inaudible) showed us the security responsibility, what about the home team what are its responsibilities in so far as safety of the crowd or the fans concerned. - - - During an A category match?

Yes sir. - - - Well the home, during my period of time the home team's security would supplement the PSL's security. They would come under the instructions of the PSL security.

So the PAS has the say over the home security? - - - Yes.

According to the ops meetings that were held before this 11th, I know you do not know much about it, 11 April it appears that the PSL did not have any representative in one or two of the ops meetings, how would you comment on that? - - - I would find it staggering.

Mr Chairman may this be the opportune time to adjourn?

CHAIRMAN: We will adjourn until 14:00.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS.

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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recommendations that are followed. Having stadium disasters is not unique to South Africa. We have had some of the biggest in the UK, other in Belgium and all over Europe. The difference is that those disasters were followed by radical change. The Taylor report following the Hillsborough Stadium disaster was a wide ranging, very radical list of recommendations. They were forced through. They were forced through very much with government backing but it changed the face in many ways of British soccer. So a starting point is to actually have recommendations that have teeth on, not recommendations that people can have meetings about for the next two years and then conveniently forget and get shelved. Recommendations that are given teeth in law, to implement. Recommendations that are recognised where South African soccer is. We have been playing FA cup finals in England for 150 years. We have been playing professional soccer in England for 150 years. The infrastructure surrounding soccer and the game has been there, has been developed over 100 years. You haven't had that here. So recommendations that recognise the position South African soccer is, where it is in, how many years of neglect its had in terms of investment, etcetera. Recognise those things, make them powerful recommendations. Make them recommendations with teeth but make them achievable and practically achievable. Give someone a goal that can be achieved, not a goal that says: okay as of next Wednesday you can't play professional soccer unless it is an all seater stadium because then you will be playing in Ellis Park and maybe FNB but you won't be playing anywhere in or or anywhere else in the country. So recommendations that are achievable and enforceable.

How did you in England address the crowd education, support the education aspect after Hillsborough? - - - I think it was the imposition of the all seater stadium. The fact that standing on steep terraces was no longer alive. There was a phase in time to accommodate that. Stadiums had time to implement but you had to remember that soccer in the UK is a very wealthy, a very wealthy game. There is a huge amount of money coming into the game. The revenue from television, the revenue from the sale of players etcetera, it is huge. So the money was there to be invested. The soccer authorities just needed a bit of a kick and a twist to force them to do it. There was also a great degree of sort of lottery money and that is another issue. I can remember sitting down with Ivan and Kaizer when I first came in 96, talking about the development of the football pools. Now the development of football pools in this country would have generated a lot of money for soccer, to go into the infrastructure of soccer, in theory but we weren't allowed to develop football pools at that time and this is back in 96, because the government was concerned that development of football pools would have an effect on the lottery, the planned lottery, which was then put off and put off and put off but we still couldn't development football for an income. But English soccer was helped out quite considerably and still is, by the input of lottery money. A great deal, the money raised by the British lottery goes into sport infrastructure.

Mr Phillips is money the only answer? Is the problem not often people? Take cricket in the United Kingdom in the last six weeks. - - - Yes I am not arguing that there is not a social problem there but of course money is part of the answer. You have to improve the infrastructure and that costs money. But there is a wider job to be done. There is a bigger job to be done and that is the change, is the education, the change of habits and attitudes and I stressed I believe that is the, perhaps the single biggest element in the whole thing. But I can't give you the answers as to how you go about them, except that it has to be done or started by specially appointed ambassadors that the football supporter will listen to. He won't listen to a politician telling him that. He won't listen to a high court judge, he will listen to somebody he respects, from a football point of view. Probably a most notably famous ex-players, administrators, but someone they respect.

To return to the question of security for a moment, you told us this morning that you instituted a system and that improving security both at PSL and at the club level, the security personnel. - - - Ja.

Training courses were introduced and professionals were appointed to look into it and to assist. That exercise you probably know, has been ongoing since your departure, you know about that? - - - I am sure it is an ongoing exercise, ja.

It is not as though soccer is simply sitting still and not doing anything. You are aware of that? - - - I don't think I have ever suggested that.

The tickets, the sales of tickets on a wider distributor basis has also been taken up. Tickets are sold through Ticket Web, there are now 60 outlets available. That you would consider a major step forward? - - - Yes, any system that widens the distribution network and makes it more possible for a football supporter to buy a ticket, is obviously welcome.

According to the records, at the game of 10 October, incidentally on that game, as I understand from you, the problem was risk to property as opposed to person. - - - That was my, that was my recollection on it. The only vivid recollection I have of the game, is standing in the car park, ducking half bricks and things sort of raining down from the gallery embankment. That is the only abiding memory that I have of that particular game.

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involved at the PSL, do you know whether that system was still in place at the time of the April game this year? - - - No, I have no knowledge as to whether it was still in place.

Then with your system that you implemented, did you make specific recommendations as to the deployment of security personnel at the various places at a stadium? - - - Did I personally make recommendations?

Well the recommendations that you made in the security system that you put into place, were there specific deployment requirements for security personnel? - - - In as much as the matches were graded, we put in a grading system but we graded matches into three particular categories, depending on low, medium or high risk and the level of personnel that would be then deployed would be pursuant to that categorisation.

Mr Phillips, what I am actually getting at, obviously at the stadium you had various areas of concern which is the outer perimeter, outside the fence, the perimeter inside the fence, the perimeter in the corridors, on the stadium and then your field placement and as well as placement of security personnel amongst the crowd. I am referring to that specific placement or deployment? - - - Well the recommendation for the split would come from the head of security. It would not always follow that you would have the same split. On some occasions you may need more on the outer perimeter and on occasions you would need more internally in the stadium. Those are decisions that would be made essentially before the game by the head of security.

Sir, and then a question which arises is the observation of the crowd. Obviously on the day of the day or prior to the game starting as well as during the game there need to be some observation as to trouble spots or hot spots within the crowd. Did you have specific implementations of plans regarding that? - - - There were plans, again on the recommendation of the head of security there would be security within the crowd if it was felt it was a particular trouble spot but that again would vary from game to game. I think a single problem in that respect was trying to get security to watch the crowd instead of the game.

Did you, we heard here testimony from the state that there were some spotters that were placed at various advantage points to specifically spot trouble spots. Were that ever discussed, did you make recommendations in this regard or was there any specific recommendations as to the placement of such spotters? - - - In any particular game or .. (intervenes)

Generally speaking, obviously there would be some general rules which would be applied? - - - That would be a fundamental part of the security plan of a particular match. But you cannot have a set formula that you will apply to every match, the requirements of how you divide your resources would vary from match to match.

And it is also obviously applicable to the lay out of the stadium, the specific stadium? - - - Yes, the stadiums.

At which some would necessitate people to be at a specific height to make some observations into a crowd for example? - - - Yes.

You yourself obviously have been to many soccer games in South Africa and all over the world in various soccer stadiums? - - - I have yes.

And your observation of a crowd, it is with respect, my respectful submission is that it very easily get into just a sea of heads and shoulders, it is very difficult to see into the crowd to see what is happening on the floor basically, on the stand where they are standing? - - - Well the development of CCTV(?) have helped that in certain areas but yes it is difficult, that is why you need to have people in the crowd.

And also from looking from a certain height down onto the people? - - - From certain heights, yes.

To look upwards from the ground level would be more difficult? - - - Yes, but these are all standard procedures, surely stadium security.

But there is not a general handbook or manual for stadium security which you can say what you do and this is the results thereof? - - - No, it varies I think, it is developed by the heads of security and their teams but there are basic rules that are followed.

So then you had obviously, well I am making the assumption that you must have watched the video of the game and the incidents at the game? - - - No.

Have you not? - - - Only what was shown on British television and those were pretty conclusive. But I have not seen a video of the actual incident.

No questions further, thank you, Mr Commissioner.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Ledwaba?

MR LEDWABA: At the request of Mr Wepener I would suggest that we adjourn the proceedings until he is in a position to indicate whether he wants to cross-examine or not before when the witness can be released for re-examination.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Wepener, it must be said that you were given Mr Phillips' statement in time and one would have thought that you would have consulted with your clients and discussed the issues therein raised.

MR WEPENER: I can assure you, Mr Chairman, the issues that I need to take instructions are issues that are not contained in the statement. In fact, it arose specific from questions asked during examination and more particularly by Mr Jordaan. A statement, which was the last statement made under cross- examination by Mr Jordaan, is by no stretch of the imagination contained in the statement given to me. I need to talk to the senior policemen to see if they actually agreed. I have seen the way that the question was phrased as well, it is maybe not as specific as one would first think.

CHAIRMAN: Were they not reasonably foreseeable, the questions which he raised?

MR WEPENER: Well may I put it this way, Mr Chairman, I would even be able to deal with it given a few minutes of adjournment but I have .. (intervenes)

CHAIRMAN: No, I am not going to deny you an adjournment, I am going to discuss it with my co-commissioner first but I just want to make a point.

MR WEPENER: No, I understand that.

CHAIRMAN: Just a moment? Mr Wepener, we are not going to deny you the adjournment but I think it is important to mention that we may have to try to be extra diligent, I know you have been diligent, I am not saying you have not been diligent, I am saying we may have to try to be extraordinarily diligent in these proceedings because with five sets of legal representatives with questions coming from all the quarters, if we are going time and again to ask for the court's indulgence to stop a bit after a third or fourth team has put questions, we may not be able to make any .. (intervenes)

MR WEPENER: I agree with that, Mr Chairman, and I support that too but it is also the end of the day, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: Yes, we will adjourn until 10:00 tomorrow morning.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS:

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/jul24a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:18 AM] jul 24 a

MR JORDAAN: Perhaps if I may just clarify one or two aspects.

EXAMINATION BY MR JORDAAN: You talked about cutting short your term of office in South Africa. What was the position you had under a specific term. I think it was two years? - - - Yes.

And the PSL actually wanted you to renew your appointment to stay on.

CHAIRMAN: Do you agree or do you not agree with that because I am about to say that this issue is not within really the concern of the commission? - - - No, I am not sure it is relevant to the commission.

MR JORDAAN: The suggestion seems to have been made that because Phillips was concerned with safety.

CHAIRMAN: No, no, I clarified that.

MR JORDAAN: Very well.

CHAIRMAN: The issue of safety did not play any role. I clarified that. Thank you.

MR SEMENYA: Can I have the benefit of insight, Mr Phillips and I accept that soccer in this country can only play within the conditions that prevail here. But I want to find out if a directive recommendation regulation that went along the following lines whether there would be practical difficulties about it i.e. if you have a directive that says no tickets may be sold 30 minutes before kick off time, would that raise practical difficulties? - - - Not in particular. Not that we are talking about the large of the games. I think you are absolutely right along the recommendations that you .. you can get all the experts in the world from England, France, all the recommendations that would come through green guide etcetera, the principles would be very standard but one always has to recognise that the people that draw up this document, are basically doing it in an infrastructure that has had soccer infrastructure; that has had something like 150 years to develop. So whilst the principles and especially the principles in terms of determining who has responsibility for various aspects .. (intervenes)

Yes, I am trying to have the benefit .. (intervenes) - - - The details could be changed. You can say we cannot do that here in South Africa. What we can do, is start a process moving towards it.

With the benefit of your insight given the local conditions, would a directive of that kind create insurmountable practical difficulties I asked you? - - - I think any directive will cause difficulties. I do not think anyone insurmountable difficulties.

You would persuade anyone like us going in that direction, I am just trying to get your feel about the subject. - - - I believe that for example the Chiefs/Pirates game and all ticket games, why can't you make it an all ticket game where tickets are sold in a week in advance. Many of the things that we had done, can be done but it is important that a legislation and recommendations are achieved. It is important when recommendations are made, it is possible to achieve them.

That is what I am testing. - - - But there is the balance isn't it? It is quite easy to say well, we cannot do that, we do not have the infrastructure, we do not have the facilities, and you cannot do it without pain. But with the right level of study, with the right level of applying certain regulations to the environmental conditions that we have and the right application of those, with enough careful thought you could come up with at least a system that takes the confusion out of the system. If the final art which are for safety is going to be the police, someone has to say it is the police and everybody has to understand. If the final responsibility for decision for the safety of spectators inside the ground, is the ground management, it has to be stated that it is ground management and it has to have statutory powers behind. But it is taking the confusion out of the situation is perhaps most important.

What would you recommend ameliorating measures where attendance at the game is far higher than the capacity of stadium? - - - You have to make it an all ticket match. You have to make the tickets available through a wide network. You have to make sure that the (indistinct - coughing) method that is accessible by the football supporter. You have to play the match, the opinion time condition and that means a weekend. You have to take the optimum conditions. Essentially you can run it as an all ticket match. You can sell the tickets early. You can publicise when tickets are told. You have to start somehow that education process that is going to prevail.

I accept all of that. You plan for a 20 000 capacity match, 50 000 people arrive, what do you think would be measures to ameliorate the difficulty of greater numbers than the capacity of the stadium can accommodate? - - - Well, perhaps the police and security coordination outside the stadium.

Thank you. - - - But above all responsibility - someone having the overall responsibility.

Does it make a difference if the points of ticket sales are some distance away from the venue itself on the day if you elect to sell the tickets on the day of the game? - - - Yes, for your category A game you would not recommend selling tickets on the day at the stadium. If you arrive on the day of the game and there are still tickets available, you would turn yourself away from the stadium. What you must not do is if it is the whole ticket game and you have a 50 000 capacity and you have got 6 000 empty seats there, you must not open the door and sell 6 000 tickets on the gate. Otherwise the next time when you have an all ticket match, you are only going to sell 10 000 tickets. So it is the pain you have to swallow and the football authorities will have to swallow it. You have to swallow the fact (indistinct) 5 000 empty seats when you know it could be full but it is only by the committee process if you are going to develop a ticketing buying culture.

Well, of course there would be commercial interest that may compromise in the interest of safety. That I appreciate. That is why I was asking the first question. Wouldn't it help the spectator education and the culture that you say is required, if it gets known that 30 minutes before kick off time, tickets unsold in category A games. - - - Yes.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Ledwaba, have you any questions?

MR LEDWABA: I have just three aspects, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: But restricted to matters of clarification and not contentious.

MR LEDWABA: That is so.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LEDWABA: Mr Phillips, the body that you suggest, would you go and .. (intervenes)

CHAIRMAN: Just a minute. I think this could be a convenient time to adjourn.

MR LEDWABA: The three questions we can just do in a minute.

CHAIRMAN: No, we will do that after tea. We will adjourn for 15 minutes.

PROCEEDINGS ADJOURN

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/jul24a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:18 AM] jul 24 b

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

(Phillips / Stainton - p553) @ "D@

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has in terms of evacuation and indicated the other day the ability to evacuate straight into a moat or onto the field, not too many stadiums have that, so that is an evacuation process all on its own. So if you say evacuate to the outside it is very quick, evacuating into the middle is very quick and we do know how many people can be evacuated onto the field for example.

Does the big screen that you have explained to the commissioner can that play a role in crowd control? - - - Well it did on 11 April, so the answer to that is yes.

But it is also an attraction to the public? - - - It is an attraction to the public, it is a revenue mechanism as well.

The PA system? - - - Again I have been to stadiums and the Ellis Park PA system is one of the best. It has external PA systems as well as internal. So it is a very very clear PA system yes.

There is mention in your submission of the erection or perhaps improvement of the perimeter fence, would you just take us through that aspect and describe what had been there before and what you did to improve it? - - - For the sake of the chairman, it is a very difficult thing to describe and we know we have been asked that you attend, come and visit Ellis Park then we can show it to you, but if I am asked to describe it, it forms very much part of what we term phase 1 of making Ellis Park a more community, more public friendly stadium.

Do you want the plan to ... (intervenes). - - - Well let us just see if I can help with that. It is very difficult with that inside perimeter section of the stadium.

CHAIRMAN: Is it not enough if we are told that improvements have been effected for such and such a purpose?

MR JORDAAN: Sir it is actually, I would like you to visualise and you will - I want to get through the witness the problems about or the potential problems in this area. - - - Okay when you refer to improvements, I think, you know I come from a building background and improvement is if I put two steps (inaudible) it does not necessarily mean an improvement as such. Hopefully this will improve a lot of areas for our public who we are trying to entice back to Ellis Park and also obviously for anybody else who wants to come. What we had initially is that this is the what we refer to the white building, and inside here we have a sports shop. Not accessible to - sorry just for the record that is on the south west corner, that is not accessible to let us say somebody coming in from the north east or the south east or even the north west corner. So what we have done is relocated the sports shop into this body over here and part of the first phase in doing that was to look at bringing the people from here into the stadium and then we are extending the fence line behind here and that is what I am in consultation with the council on at the moment, part of our plan is to expand and extend our perimeter stadium wall perimeter fencing further out so that if you arrived here you could access all the way through to the sports shop. If we were required to let us say supply any alcohol or anything to one of the suites at the last moment we could get into the golf cart and drive through from here all the way around to this particular area, so that is what we have done. In order to improve this facility we have toilets, I know it is having again studied the FIFA regulations a bit more depth than I did in the beginning, there are certain regulatory requirements about refreshment areas being too close to the entry points and right here we have entry points and refreshment areas, bar facilities. So what we have done, if I have - if you have to look at this drawing over here you can see that there is like a V, it is almost like a slice of cake taken out. Can you see that? Now what we have done is we have just squared that off and what that has done has allowed access, greater access in that areas and it also relieves the area around the bars, so that is what we have done on 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9. 1, 2 and 3 we could not do that same detail which would have made it a lot easier, because of the angle or the height of the ground relative to the entry to the stadium. It is too steep, so by cutting it off we would have to crawl through an entry point, so it would not work, so that is why we are in negotiation with the council on that. And on this side here we are doing a change because this is where we have a lot of facilities like our workshop and our bottle store that services the Ellis Park suites. So we have an idea for that as part of our phase 1, making it more user friendly for people to get around.

But one cannot see from that plan because this is a reasonably built up area. - - - All the way through here, these are all buildings . So it is incredibly built up on this side.

And you have mentioned the council from time to time, who owns what ground? - - - Ellis Park has a 99 year lease, so let us say they own this perimeter facility over here. They have the use of this area here for event days, up to there and what we are doing, you know there has been a lot of negotiation prior to 11 April with Business Against Crime or not so much then but more the CID, which is central improvement districts and dealing with the sports precinct as a whole because we believe that it is with the facility Ellis Park is a world class facility, Johannesburg Athletic Stadium is a world class facility, to create a sporting precinct. They can stand up and be counted as one of the precincts in the world and they can be one of Johannesburg's attractions. So what we are looking at in consultation is to try and endeavour to create a greater perimeter fence line that would say this is Johannesburg sporting precinct, Ellis Park sporting precinct or whatever you want to call it, utilise that facility. In doing that we would - in doing that Mr Chairman that would allow us to have a greater exterior perimeter which would maybe sort out part of the problem with access from a distance, where spectators are now on a game day and we spoke about 25% or 25 (inaudible) mile 400 metres, how far away could we do that. If this gets secured through all the different people, the business, the local authorities, the sports trusts and as it is here we have a tennis Standard Bank Arena, the tennis stadium, if we could look at this as a sporting area we could then secure it and that would also resolve if there is a concert happening at the Johannesburg Athletic Stadium the same facilities that would be able to utilise for the swimming pool or Ellis Park could be utilised for the stadium. So that is what is under negotiation or discussion. Across the road over here Subriting and Siebert is a sports group that was looking at introducing a sport museum plus parking. We have discussed with the council over here, sorry over here there is a taxi rank that you access off the M1 and Subright and that would be a perfect position to have a parking garage, that would alleviate a lot of the parking congestion that we have. Access to that is not only through there, it can be accessed by the east side. So there is a lot of planning that we are doing but to go back to your original one, phase 1 for us that I have sort of management control of is this area.

In other words the rest is by and large council land, you cannot simply build as you like? - - - No that is why we are working with them.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Jordaan we may have to find a better way of dealing with some of these things.

MR JORDAAN: I beg your pardon sir?

CHAIRMAN: We may have to find a better way of dealing with some of these issues, I mean some of these details are just too taxing for one's concentration.

MR JORDAAN: I take your point.

CHAIRMAN: We will adjourn until 14:00.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/jul24b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:18 AM] jul 24 c

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/jul24c.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:19 AM] jul 24 c

MR JORDAAN: Well sir with respect, you will allow me to disagree with you.

CHAIRMAN: All right.

MR JORDAAN: Did you discuss this matter with Ms Page when you raised the matter with her? - - - The aspect of having the screen?

Yes. - - - Yes.

And was it discussed at any length, can you recall? - - - Not too much length but we did discuss in details, yes.

And you knew that it was going to be a late, a delayed broadcast? - - - As of that meeting on the 10th it was, we were advised that had it been from a plan, which was supposed to be planned at 10:00 o'clock, to be at half past eight. So it was a delayed broadcast.

And this was an aspect that was mentioned in your conversation? - - - Yes. From my recollection yes.

Okay. Then the question of the pre-sale, the pre-selling of tickets. These tickets did go on sale prior to the day of the match? - - - Yes.

Did you as the, no, no, when I say you, as Ellis Park Stadium, the professional, you did not advise the soccer fraternity that unless it is totally pre-sale, the game should not proceed? - - - No I did not advise that or think it.

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/jul24c.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:19 AM] jul 24 d

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/jul24d.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:20 AM] jul 24 d

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/jul24d.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:20 AM] jul 24 d

members being employed in these private capacities to assist security companies, including the PSL? - - - Yes.

In fact, this Peter as we may refer to him in order to identify him, is a captain in the South African Police Service. - - - If you say so.

Can I ask you to overnight maybe check with your JOC room attendant, that this man left the JOC 20 minutes after he arrived there and never returned. Would you check your records? - - - I will check them.

Because, sir, your JOC person should know that, I have verification from the Metro Police and the South African Police who were present in the JOC that Peter decided he had a difficulty with one of the Ellis Park members present and left. Are you aware of it? - - - No,

You went to the JOC later that night for the purpose of having an inspection because there were unauthorised entry. Can you remember seeing Peter there? - - - No.

In fact he was not there. - - - I do not know, I know when I arrived there I saw a number of people, we went through that.

Well we went through who was supposed to be there, that we know, we know who was supposed, we can name them, SAPS, spotters, whoever they should be. Can you recall seeing him when you went there somewhere between 19:OO and 20:00? - - - I cannot categorically say that.

Well despite that, when Peter gave us his statement, he gave us a long story about what he saw from the JOC that night, even until 20:15. I did not know that he was not telling the truth, nor would you, until it was verified to me by people who were in the JOC that he actually left and he gave no commands or information through to the PSL officials. Can you comment on that further? - - - I cannot.

But you would check with your JOC representative overnight? - - - I will do my best.

I have read in submissions submitted to the Commission on behalf of Ellis Park, maybe you have looked at it lately, that before 11 April and up to 11 April, it was a question that the JOC was an office through which information was relayed, that was its function? - - - Yes.

In fact, in your own document it stated that each of the persons in the JOC would be in command or control of his own staff personnel or forces, whatever it may be? - - - I think that is what it says.

Yes, well I may read it to you as well. Be that as it may, from the JOC the PSL would communicate with their employees, their members. From the JOC the Ellis Park person would communicate with the Ellis Park person although information would be exchanged but each in control of their own people. - - - As indicated there was a dual purpose by the contracted companies share that information.

Yes, there was a sharing but there no boss in the JOC, if I may put it that way? - - - Yes.

And in your submissions to the Commission you have included a document headed "Emergency Procedures" and in fact it has got at the bottom "JOC's copy". It is document N of the Ellis Park submissions before the Commission at page 210 which under the paragraph 5.3 command reads:

"The emergency controller will be the chairman of the Joint Operation Centre. Each line function will exercise command over own personnel. However, co-ordination of activities will be exercised through the JOC".

I think that is what you have just said. - - - Yes.

I think the principle we agreed that pre 11 April each exercise has command over "own personnel"? - - - Yes.

Who is the chairman of the Joint Operation Centre by the way or is this just talk, there was not one? - - - No, I do not think there was a chairman as such.

If I performed my function by not delaying the Commission I think it is now 16:00, Mr Chairman, it is convenient.

CHAIRMAN: I think we want to go and think about this Peter story. I think we should adjourn here, we want time to think about it until tomorrow morning. We will adjourn until 22:00.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS:

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/jul25a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:21 AM] jul 25 a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/jul25a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:21 AM] jul 25 a

Well, maybe we can check with him whether he had. - - - You can do that. But I do not dispute that an additional quotation was received. Gearhouse are the company that Mr Hattingh might have referred the quote to and that too I had the communication which is what I said prior to this.

Maybe just to finalise the issue. At the meeting there was a suggestion that a facility like that should be paid for maybe 50/50. I think the intention was that Ellis Park and PSL or Kaizer Chiefs. - - - There was some discussion on it but it was never an official discussion I think. It was a point that one of the staff suggested.

When one looks at the price of R35 000,00 it is no longer R50 000,00 and R60 000,00 and it is a much more affordable figure. - - - Yes.

Mr Chairman, I do not want to impose the tea adjournment too long.

CHAIRMAN: Yes, we will adjourn for 15 minutes.

PROCEEDINGS ADJOURN

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

(Stainton - p666) @ "D@

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/jul25b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:21 AM] jul 25 b

Yes, now from the time when you arrived there at your post Diligence and formerly the companies it took over they were rendering specific services in security and that entails the security of teh field, the security of the bars. Is that correct? - - - And tunnel ... (intervenes). Yes the field to incorporate the tunnel, the change room, the medics as well as then the bars which is a separate entity. - - - Correct. Now quantity wise they are the smallest contingent of security personnel there if you compare them to the other Stallion and Wolf and then the PSL security, they had 66 members on the field and 18 members at the bars. - - - AIN had 72 but technically it was the 66 yes. Now the credentials of Diligence was presented at some stage, most likely prior to your taking over your post, was presented to Ellis Park when obviously they started their relationship their credentials were delivered and their management structures and so forth were all presented to Ellis Park. - - - I would say yes.

Now my instructions is that all the officials of Diligence that were involved that evening at Ellis Park were in fact registered with the SOB, can you comment on that? - - - I understand that as correct.

Yes, and furthermore they all met the required training element that is required, the training specifications that is required from the SOB they all met that standard. - - - I have no specific knowledge of it but I have been advised and I would not dispute that.

CHAIRMAN: And I also trust the commission will be favoured with that documentation.

MR COETZEE: Yes Mr Commissioner and Mr Semenya I will, one of the statements I will at a later stage but it might be appropriate to make it at this stage is that albeit that the statement D13 which Mr (inaudible) referred to Mr Wepener rather referred to may state that Diligence did not supply the list of employees at that stage which was involved at Ellis Park events, that is correct at that stage but before 8 May that list in fact was supplied to the SOB because on 8 May there was in fact an inspection of the SOB at Diligence and by that time the lists were already with their accreditation and training was already supplied to the SOB and they were satisfied with that, so the documentation is available but obviously I do not think Mr Stainton can really react to that documentation and should people from the SOB come to testify obviously it will be put to them and ... (intervenes).

CHAIRMAN: Just for the record so that we know that is correct, would you make those available?

MR COETZEE: Yes, I will indeed do so. I see it is one.

CHAIRMAN: Yes, we will adjourn until 14:00.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS

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(Stainton - p701) @ C C>C D ' "DC '

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/jul25c.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:22 AM] jul 25 c

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/jul25c.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:22 AM] jul 25 c

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 RB  / )/ ,#. / .2 file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/jul25c.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:22 AM] jul 25 c

CHAIRMAN: Well I wasn't there.

MR COETZEE: Yes but Mr Chairman one needs to look at .. (intervenes)

CHAIRMAN: He can come, I told you that you try to testify will be (indistinct). You see this is the problem, you see.

MR COETZEE: Yes, but Mr Chairman still I do have to put a version to this witness so that he can comment on that. Obviously Mr van der Walt is going to testify himself.

CHAIRMAN: Well you just said to him: I put it to you, there were people in front of him (indistinct) he couldn't see. I mean for us to go through the motion of people standing in front of you not being able to see, there cannot be an argument about it, can there?

MR COETZEE: As the commission pleases. Mr Stainton the problem with pitch invasions and with people coming onto the pitch, what is the real problem with that, that you need security personnel within the field, to protect the field? What is your real danger that you need to protect there? - - - It is to protect people on the field and the players on the field, rather than (indistinct) the field.

So it is in fact the players, the referee and also obviously there are some media personnel and events that are prior, preceding the game. - - - Yes but the people stationed there looking into the crowd is not only, their job is not only just to stand and wait for somebody to try and jump over. It is crowd control, assessment and looking.

Yes. Mr Stainton there was reference made at EP9 at page 94 of EP9 which is numbered 94, of the spotters in room N523. Now I think we have also heard the version put by Mr Wepener that there were police officials in that spotter room in N523. Now my instruction is that if you have a look at photograph 54 on the top part of the northern stadium, there is written Mr Price. Do you see that? - - - That is right.

Now just underneath that, there is a suite, just underneath that Mr Price. - - - That is right.

My instruction is that that suite is numbered number N523. - - - That is right.

And that that is a vacant suite which was also in the past used as a JOC room. - - - Temporary JOC ja.

A temporary JOC. I just want to clarify because I think there was some confusion as to where that N523 was. In fact that that is N5, 523 is situated at that position. - - - That is right.

Thank you. Mr Stainton, I have taken the liberty of actually considering some suggestions, me and my client obviously, as to what can be done or what would properly be advantageous to the stadium. If I can get your comment on certain of these aspects. I have noticed at the perimeter, outside perimeter of the, at the stadium that it is a mesh kind of metal fencing that was erected there. It is a metal mesh but it is a wire, kind of a wire metal mesh. - - - Are you referring to the council perimeter area or the actual structure of the stadium?

Of the stadium. - - - Right.

Would it not be more advantageous to have a more permanent, stronger fixture there, like a wall with palisades which is not that easily penetrable? - - - I don't know what, how that interferes with air flow, regulations and things like that, so I don't know, sorry.

Mr Chairman may I just ask direction, I have some of these suggestions, I do not know whether it is proper at this stage to put it to the witness, I don't want to delay the.. (intervenes)

CHAIRMAN: Well put the suggestion (indistinct)

MR COETZEE: Thank you.

CHAIRMAN: That is (indistinct)

MR COETZEE: My perception is that .. (intervenes)

CHAIRMAN: Just a minute. As long as you believe that there are issues that he can be able to comment on.

MR COETZEE: I would not have said that or I would made the suggestions if I did not think that, Mr Chairman I honestly think and that is why I thought with the view that the commission is also to make recommendations, I thought that it would be quite apt to make certain suggestions also and one can obviously make it at a later stage but.. (intervenes)

CHAIRMAN: I do not find your assurance comforting. But anyway, go ahead.

MR COETZEE: Thank you sir. - - - With regards to the wire fence, that is part of the construction, it allows light into that area, it allows air flow. The areas that were broken down, was not part of the wire fence. So, but we will look at it, ja.

Yes, Mr Chairman I will .. (intervenes)

CHAIRMAN: (Indistinct) and test them against him. He is the manager of the stadium, he knows the area and he may say: well that suggestion is not workable, given the (indistinct) of the stadium or he may say: well we are already (indistinct) that.

MR COETZEE: All right. Mr Stainton what, especially for example on these passages in the corners which are quite a heavily populated or very busy with spectators, would it not be advisable to have an usher there with a radio to basically assist the people in dispersing onto the seats? You have a person there with a radio that is clearly marked as an usher to basically help the people in the seats but that would immediately notice if there is an improper conversion of people onto a specific area? - - - Well at, that entrance way is at the top, there was Wolf Security who were radio linked but we are looking at greater radio communication within in the (indistinct) into the stadium.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Coetzee please don't rush yourself on that mission.

MR COETZEE: Yes.

CHAIRMAN: Don't get the impression that (indistinct)

MR COETZEE: Excuse me, I am only trying to help .. (intervenes) - - - It is a good request, I mean there is nothing wrong with that.

CHAIRMAN: Yes, sure.

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/jul25c.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:22 AM] jul 25d

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july25d.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:23 AM] jul 25d

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july25d.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:23 AM] jul 25d

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july25d.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:23 AM] jul 25d

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july25d.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:23 AM] jul 25d

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july25d.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:23 AM] jul 25d

Which was done when? - - - The initial audit was done straight after the game and then we subsequently did a thorough investigation.

Now the tickets which were not sold on that date, those were the ones given to the Commission? - - - Yes, just on 4 000.

Yes, and I think Mr Attwell has them, it is there somewhere, yesterday he had them, if he can just show it to you, if you can identify it. The box of tickets which were unsold, do you recognise them from where you stand? - - - Yes.

Are these the tickets, how many are there in here, can you say exactly now? - - - I think they are 3 914.

MR ATTWELL: It is 13, Mr Chairman, we put one in your original file, you will remember. It is 3 912 or whatever. I am merely making the subtraction of two originals for your file.

MR ENGELBRECHT: Now Mr Stainton, to your knowledge, it is appreciated that as you testified earlier on that you could not see everything and you could not be everywhere at once. But to your knowledge if nobody without a ticket could enter the stadium on that day, on that fatal day, would the stadium have been overcrowded at any stage? - - - No.

Even if 62 000 entered that stadium as opposed to its maximum capacity, would there have been room for them? - - - In the aisles and places like that, yes.

What and are you in a position to tell the Commission what you can attribute the fact to that apparently a stage was reached that that stadium was overpacked and that there were too many people in it? - - - I think as a result of people forcing their way in without tickets.

Yes. Now Mr Stainton, there are certain aspects which we will have to clarify, which you will have to clarify for the Commission which is not entirely clear from your evidence. You were asked by the Honourable Chairman about the working of the turnstile gates. - - - Yes.

Could you tell us, well have you satisfied yourself in the meantime that you knew how they worked? - - - Yes.

Now how do they work as far as entry and exit is concerned? - - - The external perimeter turnstiles go round as you enter in. But the internal ones with the perimeter can go both ways.

In other words, one can go in and out? - - - That is right.

They can turn clockwise and anti-clockwise. - - - Yes.

The actual question that was not clear was was it a one-way or was it a two-way. Now as at 10 April 2001, at the operational meeting, it was envisaged that as far as visible police is concerned, there would be 125? - - - Yes.

Now I just want to put to you, it is not necessary to open it but I want to put know whether you know about it, the submission which was given by the South African Police Services contains at flag 10 a statement by Captain Basson relating to the events and he said the following at paragraph 25, at approximately 17:00 that same day (i.e. 11 April) there were 93 of the original 125 members deployed and placed at their various positions. Now did you know that only 93 of the intended 125 would make their appearance at the game? - - - No.

Was there ever any suggestion or discussion that you know of from the side of the SAPS that less police officials would be deployed than originally envisaged? - - - No.

CHAIRMAN: We will adjourn until tomorrow at 10:00.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS:

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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CHAIRMAN: Don't worry about the time. I am concerned about the transcript.

MR ENGELBRECHT: Yes.

CHAIRMAN: Why is everybody having a transcript and the chairperson and the co-commission does not have a copy of the transcript?

MR ENGELBRECHT: Mr Chairman, this comes as a surprise to me. I (inaudible)

CHAIRMAN: Yes, that is why I am surprised.

(laughter)

CHAIRMAN: I am sure we will get it later on.

MR ENGELBRECHT: It is important that you do have it because many of the questions (inaudible). I will make a list of pages in fact I refer to to make things easier.

CHAIRMAN: Okay.

MR ENGELBRECHT: It is important you have it.

CHAIRMAN: Alright. It is a bit inconvenient for us to .. (laughter)

MR ENGELBRECHT: EP11, the Ellis Park file, it is a transcript of a meeting which took page on 10 April 2001. If you look at page 4. - - - I have that.

I have been told it is tea time, Mr chairman. I am almost finished. I am sorry.

CHAIRMAN: Yes, please finish.

MR ENGELBRECHT: May I finish?

CHAIRMAN: Yesterday you said you were about to finish.

MR ENGELBRECHT: I am now.

CHAIRMAN: Then I made the mistake to adjourn and you took much longer. Now finish.

MR ENGELBRECHT: Look at page 4, about a third from the top. Who is Chaka there? Mr Coetzee, CC? Is that correct? - - - That is right.

I want to (inaudible) a decision about the razor wire and then a member (inaudible) the razor wire. If I can just (inaudible) razor wire will not be available. It will be on standby. Standby on a different basis at Alexander and then this is not going to help us. The problem is once you get a stampede, now you have to get those razor wire. It is going to take another. No, that is true. But see (inaudible) those razor wires. Now can I just ask you this, the razor wire how are they brought to the stadium? - - - They are brought on trailers.

Which is pulled by what type of vehicle? - - - Any vehicle but they are deployed through the use of Njalas.

Now as far as the Njalas are concerned, how many Njalas did turn up on 11 April? - - - Three.

And how many have trailers with razor wire? - - - Two.

I have no further questions.

CHAIRMAN: We will adjourn for 15 minutes.

PROCEEDINGS ADJOURN

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

(Stainton - p766) @ "D@

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july26b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:24 AM] jul 26b

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july26b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:24 AM] jul 26b

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july26b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:24 AM] jul 26b

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july26b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:24 AM] jul 26b

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/july26b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:24 AM] jul 26b

then 20 August, a Monday morning. Fine sir that should be fine.

CHAIRMAN: (Inaudible).

MR ATWELL: I did raise the issue of possibly using your kind offices sir to warn witnesses for future attendances, the original subpoenas having been dated for 16 July. I have been advised by all my colleagues that they can speak for all their clients such an official warning or anything through your office is not required, they guarantee that on the 20th and days following they will ensure that their clients and major role players and the people that we know will be necessary will be in attendance from the 20th and available at very short notice on the given date. So I have dispensed with the request that we do so through yourself sir.

CHAIRMAN: That is fine. The proceedings are adjourned until 10:00 at Ellis Park Stadium on 20 August.

MR ATWELL: Thank you sir.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS

------

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

(Introduction and Witness: Leonard Kwinana - p 799) =C@@" D> AB * *  ""@ ' @GD<

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soccer players if one is a fan of Pirates or Kaizer Chiefs, then that is also encouraging the fans in going to the stadium earlier. I have no further questions. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr Arends? MR ARENDS: (indistinct) CHAIRMAN: Do you want the court to adjourn?

MR ARENDS: Yes. CHAIRMAN: We will adjourn for five minutes. PROCEEDINGS ADJOURN PROCEEDINGS RESUME

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/aug21b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:26 AM] aug 21

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/aug21b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:26 AM] aug 21

because even if you make it he will go to the ground even from Johannesburg to Durban he will go through, he will take desperate measures to get into the ground.

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/aug21b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:26 AM] aug 21

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/aug21c.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:27 AM] aug 21

interpreter) ..(intervenes)

CHAIRMAN: Hold on, just a minute, I think I will reconstitute the hearing, the hearing is reconstituted. --- Mr Chairman there is somebody that I have to pay in order to do what I am doing and if I have to take my money at the time and pay this person I do not know as to whether am I going to be recompensated eventually.

All I can say is that as far as I know no such compensation is normally paid but I am sure you will understand Mr Kwinana that we came here because we want to enquire as to why 43 people died and that is very important to the nation and to all of us and I think I must warn you to be here tomorrow. In the meantime you can take up your queries with Mr Attwell over there but I am afraid that as far as the law is concerned you are warned to be here tomorrow and please try to be here because if, should you fail to be here tomorrow you may have serious problems. We take these proceedings very seriously and we will definitely not be happy if you do not come tomorrow without serious consequences being visited upon you for not coming. --- The witness elects to testify to you Mr Chairperson directly.

To speak to me directly, yes? --- What I am saying I don't have a problem in coming here so you can imagine that it is towards month-end, I'm taking all the money that I've saved instead of doing other things, paying this guy and I am coming here. If it is going to take the whole week the next thing I don't have money, it's going to be a problem you see.

I don't think it will take the whole week, I think we are likely to finish with you tomorrow. --- Yes, but now ..(intervenes)

Just promise me that you will not elaborate in your answers as well. --- Okay, yes I won't.

I think in all probability we will finish with you tomorrow Mr Kwinana please. --- Okay.

Thank you. We now adjourn.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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VOLUME 11 : PAGES 871 - 939

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And the crowd, the fans are getting excited. They are jumping up and down, they are waving their flags and so on. That is not only on the 11th but that would happen at all the big derbies. --- Yes.

Now all this jumping up and down and flag waving and cheering and so on which one typically associated with a big derby, that would have been going on in the seats and in the isles, the gangway. Would that be right? --- Is counsel now referring this in respect of other games because as far as this game is concerned, in that game there was a stampede. That is now in the passage.

I am talking about the 11th. --- In that passage where the stampede was taking place, there was nobody who was raising a flag as such because there was a stampede going on there.

The passage way we know that there was a barrier, a fence, a barrier in the passage way and on either side it was packed with people. --- Yes, concentrating on the side on which I was, there were many people.

And if we can just call up the map again on the screen, the photo. We also know now, Mr Kwinana, that the stampede unfortunately happened roundabout the vicinity there. Would that be right? --- Yes.

So I am just asking you would your answer be the same that if there were people occupying the stairs, the gangway there from the bottom up, roundabout there, would they have been part of the crowd that was cheering and so on? --- Yes.

They would have been? --- Yes.

Now there is two reasons why I asked you this. The one is that your evidence was yesterday that you were very upset that with what was happening around you, people being injured, people dying, that notwithstanding that, no one was prepared to help you. I think you did say after that there were two men who assisted you but otherwise people seemed to be disinterested. Their eyes were probably focused on the field. That is the one reason why I asked you what was happening around you so that we can understand your anger. Do you understand what I am saying? --- Yes.

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/aug22b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:28 AM] aug 22

If one has regard to the steps, I think it is photo 54, am I correct in saying Mr Kwinana that in between the time you came through the roller gates and to the stage where you reached the top of the stairs the ground is fairly even is that correct? --- Yes.

However minutes the crowd reached the top of the stairs your chances of falling dramatically increased when you are being pushed along in that crowd is that right? --- Yes.

So by its very nature if a mass of crowd moving forward are not controlled by the time they reach the top of the stairs they are going to inevitably fall down and be injured. --- Yes.

Now when people started to fall, you saw people had fallen, surely people had started to scream out as they fell and as they became crushed by other people, surely that was the situation? --- Yes.

Were there loud and persistent screams from people initially? --- Yes.

Were there cries for help from people who were, not the people who were being crushed but other people in the vicinity, were other people shouting for help to the authorities or to whoever? --- Yes some of them.

If there were security officials in that area do you think it was loud enough for them to have heard it? --- Yes.

You took steps to try and alert officials at the stadium to the situation by throwing the bottles onto the pitch did other people in the vicinity try also to alert officials as to what was happening, that you saw? --- Yes.

What did they do to try and alert the officials? --- They shouted causing noise in order to seek for help by actually using their hands as such.

When was - who was the first person you saw from either security or the officials at the game. Who was the first person that you saw after the stampede had resulted and people being crushed? --- It was the security official whom I had described that he was dressed in something that belongs to Wolf.

And when you saw him on the first occasion where was he? --- He was walking behind the goal posts, walking towards the side where we were.

And was this at a stage when people were shouting and gesticulating as you mentioned to draw attention? --- No.

Was it at an earlier stage than that or a later stage? --- It was at a later stage.

From what I gather he was alone, did he gave any forms of communication with him, a walkie talkie that you saw? --- Yes.

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CHAIRMAN: No, no, no, no, run, running away just means that, I mean what else does it mean? Now you want the witness to try and think why your clients ran away but at the same time you are saying to us your client's version is that they did not run away so I'm trying to find out the value of his opinion if, in the first place, your client's version is that they did not run away. What is the purpose of his trying to speculate to us as to why your clients ran away?

MR LOUW: Yes Mr Chairman. The illusion is perhaps created by the statement that the running away referred to is a relinquishment of duty. What I'm trying to establish is in which context did the guards run away? In the context where there was danger or what the actual reason was.

CHAIRMAN: They ran away, we really know that they ran away. They ran, they ran away, how else do you want to define it?

MR LOUW: Not my clients Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: Well then put it to him, say to him my client did not run away, put it to him my clients didn't run away.

MR LOUW: With your leave Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: And let's not try to define or redefine running away.

MR LOUW: Mr Kwinana the evidence will be that the armed guards, which you didn't see, did not run away. --- It seems you are asking me about something that I did not see, you are continuously asking me to tell you that, I don't know, I cannot tell you about something that I didn't see. (Without interpreter)

Can you dispute the fact, if I put to you, that the at least 54 gatekeepers withdrew to the inside of the gate and the turnstiles and remained there until after the match was called off? --- Why will I dispute that? If people were standing there they would just be standing there.

The ticket booths at the top, the ones here, did you see whether they were open or closed? --- It was at night, I was never on that side, do you expect me to, well why would I be on that side, what would I be looking for that side? (Without interpreter)

You don't know? --- I don't know. (Without interpreter)

I have no further questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Coetzee? By the way you appear for which security company?

MR COETZEE: I appear for Diligence, as well as Wolf Security.

CHAIRMAN: Before you, I think we must consult with Mr Kwinana. Yesterday we raised the hope in him that we would be through with him today and I think we owe him an explanation. Mr Kwinana it seems to me you won't finish today. --- I can see that one, I'm tired, I think that I will come tomorrow.

Will you be here tomorrow? --- Yes. And these guys they must ask their questions ...

And finish. --- Clearly. I'm tired of coming here.

Thank you. --- You've being paid to be here, I'm not paid to be here, that's the difference.

Yes, yes. --- And they want to go to the stadium, they are staying on those routes, I pay to sit on access row.

Alright then, I'm tired, you must be tired, we will then adjourn until tomorrow 10 o'clock.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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VOLUME 12 : PAGES 940 - 1039

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/aug23a.html[2009/08/06 08:42:30 AM] aug 23

Could you indicate on this photo? --- Yes, it landed, if this is the end of .. next to the end of the soccer field, that is where it landed.

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/aug23a.html[2009/08/06 08:42:30 AM] aug 23

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/aug23b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:30 AM] aug 23

CHAIRMAN: At which point?

MR COETZEE: In normal events, before the gate was closed. Mr Commissioner whilst the normal entry of spectators were there.

CHAIRMAN: Up until half past seven?

MR COETZEE: Up until between the six and half past seven when they closed the gate. The time is not very clear there, the exact time but say before the ... (intervenes).

CHAIRMAN: Let us put it this way you are saying at least for the time that the roller gate was open they were at all time there.

MR COETZEE: Thank you. At the time when the roller gates were still normally up and gate 4 was still normally open these security personnel were deployed as that. Is that possible sir that they might have been there and that you just did not take note of it? --- I cannot comment on that.

I wish to refer you to and maybe Mr Atwell can please assist me there, the red bib there on the left, I do not know what their exhibit number is off hand. EXHIBIT 1, can I just confirm it is EXHIBIT 1?

CHAIRMAN: It is EXHIBIT 1.

MR COETZEE: Thank you Mr Commissioner. My instructions is that that security officials were wearing similar bibs or those kind of bibs at the entrances at the scaffolding. You have not seen that? --- Like I said in my statement I never saw any security.

Sir when you entered now with your friends, everything was still normal, could you find eight consecutive seats for your friends to sit or did you have to split up to various empty seats in the stadium or were you fortunate enough to still find ample seating that you could all sit there together? --- No I was on the fourth row, five seats away from the stairways, we were three there and the other guys were downwards about the next row, that is where they sat.

Just for sake of clarity, you might not be able to answer that but at that stage when the stadium at gate 4 the seating was full or filled up the gates were closed at 4, did you know they roller shut the gates as well as the turnstiles at gate 4 were closed, do you have any knowledge thereof sir? --- Maybe it was done after we entered the stadium.

Now the spectators in anticipation of the game starting were quite jubilant, people were standing and shouting and waving flags and dancing perhaps, was that the general comment or fair comment? --- It is a fair comment for soccer.

And even before the stampede now, this place where the people unfortunately got injured people were also standing in the passage. In that stairway people were standing looking for seating but there were people filled up in that passage. Did you notice that? --- I could see people walking down the stairway to get themselves a seat but standing not at that time.

But there were people on their feet, let us then call it that, on their feet in the passage? --- Yes on the stairways.

Yes. --- Yes.

Prior to you being alerted to people getting injured did you at all take note of the security arrangements inside the stadium, in other words did you see where the security inside was deployed or did you not bother with that? --- No as I was watching the warm up of teams I did see security around the field.

Sitting facing the crowd? --- Yes facing towards us.

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/aug23b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:30 AM]      #    ! "  # $ % &  '( $ % &  )))*+!,* *-

Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/aug23c.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:32 AM] CHAIRMAN: Yes but can you discuss that, I sent a note to Mr Attwell that as soon as we adjourn he discussed the matter with you all and then let us know about tomorrow.

MR ARENDSE: Thank you.

CHAIRMAN: And Mr Mabena would you please be here tomorrow to attend court. --- Okay.

Mr Attwell will tell you precisely what. --- Alright.

Thank you.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/aug23c.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:32 AM] aug 24

     #    ! "  # $ % &  '( $ % &  )))*+!,* *-

Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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A. 0 , )/ )! /11  / 1,/  /! ! 2 3 3 3 @* file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/aug24a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:33 AM] aug 24

Did you take note of the capacity of the stadium? - - - Yes.

Could you comment on the capacity of the stadium? - - - According to my observation, it was full capacity and there was no space though even the people or the crowd still attempting to come in.

And what happened to this crowd that then came in? - - - They had stopped there in the isle and they were many. There was no space for them either to can go forward or go back.

Was this crowd to your left or to your right? - - - To my right.

What happened thereafter? - - - In that big crowd there was a small boy. This small boy was crying seeking help and he was severely trapped.

How was he trapped? - - - He was trapped amongst the crowd.

And what did you do? - - - I did nothing. From where I was seated I was sitting on the second seat from the corner.

Proceed. - - - And to my left a male person was seated there and this person I am referring to, the male person, was attempting to pull out this child out of that crowd. He was not successful and in not being successful he then climbed onto the backrest of my seat. Because of the fact that as he got onto the backrest of my seat, he just got there with his one foot. Then he lost balance and he fell and on falling he fell on top of me. Both of us then fell. That is now this man and myself and we found ourselves amongst the crowd.

Were you also trapped? - - - Yes.

At this stage had the game started? - - - No.

What happened to you thereafter? - - - I had fallen. I was on the ground and I was attempting to stand up but I could not.

For how long were you on the ground? - - - I am not sure of the time period. I do not know.

And why couldn't you get up? - - - There was no space and the people were many and as I attempted to get up, they trampled on me.

Were you lying on the ground or on top of somebody else? - - - As I lay on the ground, I was on the ground.

And did you notice if this little boy that you referred to earlier, was he anywhere near you? - - - Yes.

Could you see him? - - - Yes.

The gentleman that sat next to you on your left, the person that you said lost balance and you both fell into the crowd, was he next to you as well? - - - I never saw him again.

What happened thereafter? Did you manage to get yourself out of the crowd? - - - No, I could not get up to free myself from this crowd but I managed to raise up my head in order to can breath in and out.

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/aug24a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:33 AM] aug 24

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/aug24b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:33 AM] aug 24

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/aug24b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:33 AM] aug 24

CHAIRMAN: Well should you not take it up with the witness?

MR WEPENER: I can, it is probably a question of detail. She was injured, we accept that, we do not deny that, but it was put to Mr Stainton that she actually fell from the top onto the bottom, the version she gave today she fell off a chair. We do not think it matters but once Mr Stainton's evidence is seen in perspective that the commission will just understand why we put it to him that a spectator was seen falling down. It is then that evidence which we put to him should really be qualified then by this witness's evidence today. As the commission pleases.

CHAIRMAN: Yes. Mr (inaudible).

MR ?: Thank you Mr Chairman we have no questions on behalf of Ellis Park.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Louw?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LOUW: We will be brief, on behalf of Stallion. Can I refer to photograph 24. Ms Oliphant is that the gate that was flattened and trampled on by the spectators? - - - Well I am not sure as to whether this is the same gate because I am not familiar with Ellis Park, nor can I say as to how many gates were trampled on that evening.

Putting it differently the gate that you saw that was flattened and trampled over, did it look similar to the one that is depicted here? - - - Yes I will concede to that because I did not see other gates as such.

Paging over to photograph 25. Can you remember if that is more or less the location where you went in, if you look in this picture, there is some more background. - - - I really do not remember I do not want to lie.

May I refer to EXHIBIT 2B. You mentioned that the security officials were wearing orange bibs. - - - Yes.

Would the bib that was shown to you presently fall within that category, is that also the type of bib that you observed? - - - No.

We have no further questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Coetzee?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR COETZEE: Thank you commissioner Coetzee for Wolf and Diligence. Ms Oliphant my instruction from the personnel from Wolf Security is that the turnstiles at the gates, for example at gate 4, but all the turnstiles at the gates entering the stadium can only be opened on that night once the guard on the inside press the release button. In other words it was not free flow that evening. - - - Well it was in operation. As to whether there was somebody who was controlling it or not I did not see anybody. If somebody did press that button and then as a result thereof that turnstile just became free flow.

Ms Oliphant then there is a further submission I wish to make to you that my instructions from Diligence and particularly from Mr Fourie from Diligence is that at the stage when the child was handed by yourself to or was handed from the crowd where the child was released that the child at that stage was handed to Mr Fourie who handed him down and the child was then - in other words what I am getting at is that the security personnel was at that stage already assisting with the removal of injured spectators. - - - I cannot deny nor can I admit to that, I of course did not see them. All I know is that the child was removed from the top of me, as to what then happened to the child I did not see, I do not know.

Thank you Mr Commissioner I have got no further questions.

MR : Mr Chairman we have no questions for the witness.

MS GANGADU: I have no re-examination.

CHAIRMAN: There is something I did not understand. When people went through that gate how was the situation? - - - It was busy then Mr Chairman as people had gone through that gate, others were jumping over the fence at that stage and as we went through that gate we were many.

But were people pushing forward or oh well the gate is down we can just walk through normally? - - - Getting in through that gate people got in through normally Mr Chairman and those who were then running I would say they were just running in in order to get as quick as possible into the stadium.

So the people were not being pushed through the gate? They simply walked through the gate? - - - Yes Mr Chairman.

Yes which one? - - - They were just walking normally through that gate not being pushed.

Is there anybody wanting to put questions to the witness in the light of my questions to her?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ARENDSE: Not in the light of your questions Chairperson just one, whether Ms Oliphant she went with her friends, were they a group of females or was it a mixed group of males and females.

CHAIRMAN: Yes please ask her.

MR ARENDSE: Mr Interpreter? - - - In that group it consisted of three male persons and two female persons.

Thank you. No further questions.

CHAIRMAN: Yes. Thank you Ms Oliphant you are excused.

MR ATWELL: Mr Chairperson apropos our discussion earlier I think this might be a convenient stage, whatever witness we now commence is not going to make much impact before we can come to the 13:00 cut off time for today and there are certain matters that we would like to reconsider about perhaps even call further witnesses. So might this be an appropriate occasion at this stage to take the adjournment.

CHAIRMAN: Yes very well. We will adjourn until Monday 10:00.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/aug24b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:33 AM] aug 27

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/aug27a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:34 AM] aug 27

Did anybody ask to check your ticket? - - - Those people I have referred to were inside whilst we were outside the yard or the premises of Ellis Park and the gates were locked.

How did you get into the stadium? How did you get into the stadium to watch the match? - - - I had to walk around the stadium premises looking for an opening where I could sneak into the stadium and I actually wanted to come to where the or to the side where the Pirate fans were seated and I noticed that other people were busy trying to uproot the mesh erected there at the turnstiles.

Did you notice if there were any scaffolding in front of this mesh or near these turnstiles? - - - What is a scaffolding?

If you look at photo 13. - - - No, I did not notice such scaffolding.

Now you know what happened at Ellis Park that night of the 11th. Is that correct? You know what happened in the northeast corner. - - - Yes, I know.

CHAIRMAN: Before we get there. How did he get into the stadium? - - - As we were still waiting there at the turnstiles, Mr Chairman, certain security officials came. Then they opened the gate for us and we were then let into the stadium without even being searched.

MS GANGADU: How many people were let? - - - Many.

And how many security officials were there at the turnstile? - - - There were a few of them. About eight to ten.

What were they wearing? Do you recall? - - - They had white shirts on and bibs on top of those white shirts.

What colour bibs? - - - Similar to the red ones.

EXHIBIT 1, Mr Chairman. You indicate that you were let into the stadium. Are you saying that you followed the security guard into the stadium? - - - As we stood there, they opened the gate and they then permitted us to get into the stadium and we got into the stadium.

Without your tickets being checked or being asked for tickets? - - - Yes.

As I indicated to you earlier, this is the northeast corner and this is where the incident occurred at Ellis Park. - - - Yes.

Could you give us an indication as to which part of the stadium did you enter into? - - - There at that place which I have just indicated.

Here? - - - Yes.

That is the western grandstand, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: Can we adjourn for 15 minutes? The will adjourn for 15 minutes.

PROCEEDINGS ADJOURN

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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You mentioned that the gate was eventually broken down and fell to the ground. - - - Yes.

Would you agree with me that even if the gate had remained closed, according to your evidence, that there was so many people that it is likely that the gate would have been broken down in any event? - - - No I do not agree to that.

The route that you followed in order to reach the suite on the southern grandstand was that from the western side down to the south west corner and then to the southern grandstand or the other way round? - - - I did not follow an initial route as such with the intention of reaching that spot because I had just been walking around the stadium looking for a place where I could get myself seated.

Do you usually make your way into the soccer stadium without a ticket? - - - Repeat the question please.

Do you usually make your way into the soccer stadium wherever they are playing, without a ticket? - - - No I purchase a ticket. You said that you then encountered a whole lot of security people at the turnstile, is this now at the point after you passed through the gate? - - - No it was before entering. They had been there but finally they did open the gate.

Now after this when you reached the turnstile to get into the stadium is this when you were pulled inside or did this pulling inside at the gate? - - - At the gate I was still on the outside.

Subsequently you must have reached the turnstiles in order to gain access to the stadium itself. - - - Yes.

Could you just explain what happened there at that point now, subsequently having passed the gate and now in order to get into the stadium itself (inaudible). - - - After having entered the stadium the gates at the turnstiles and gates to the different passages there, all these gates were closed. That is when I then started moving around looking for an opening where I could get into the stadium.

I see, and you eventually found a group of spectators trying to break down a piece of mesh or mesh fencing in the vicinity of a turnstile? - - - Well this thing was happening all around the stadium but because of the fact that I was in pain I could not do it as well.

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     #    ! "  # $ % &  '( $ % &  )))*+!,* *-

Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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EXHIBIT 6 Mr Chairman. What is the relationship between the PSL in EXHIBIT 6 and your own and Kaizer Chiefs security in EXHIBIT 7, the relationship ..(intervenes) - - - We are one and the same.

You said you arrived towards the North Park Lane? - - - That is correct.

And you say your responsibility at that side was marshalling? - - - To do marshalling and to direct people as to where they were supposed to purchase tickets.

The Chiefs and Pirates securities, were they armed that evening? - - - Yes, we were armed with kerries.

And the PSL? - - - The same.

Now proceed and tell us what you observed in that side. First of all what time was it when you were in that side? The North Park Lane will be there. - - - Somewhere here there were ticket booths. There was a big gate being a vehicle gate, a gate for vehicles, there were small gates there where Stallion personnel were and they were tearing tickets, and it was not only one person from Stallion, there were quite a number of people from Stallion, they were tearing tickets there along the fence. And there at the ticket booths there were others who were dressed in black and armed with firearms.

Is that now a group of security officials? - - - Yes, but not our security officials. I think they were guarding the money.

Yes. Did you go in and outside the outside perimeter fence yourself? - - - Somewhere along that area there, along the gate for the vehicles, it's a big gate there, there were security officials dressed in black uniforms, all black, and the wording "Viper" was inscribed there on that uniform and they were wearing black helmets, the black helmet has a face cover. They were carrying black batons, carrying black shields.

I'm showing you EXHIBIT 8 which is written "Viper Protection Services", did you see this that evening? - - - No the one I'm describing, it's a fully type of a uniform.

Right ..(intervenes) - - - And at that gate which I've now testified about I saw about three of these Viper security officers, those who were dressed in the black uniform, and some of them were scattered around as well.

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/aug27c.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:35 AM] aug 27

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/aug27d.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:35 AM] aug 27

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/aug27d.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:35 AM] aug 27

That is the gate leading into the pitch? - - - Yes.

How many medical officials did you find there? - - - They were many but I spoke to one. As to how he and the others arranged I do not know.

And after that what happened? - - - I then moved from there and moved towards the north-east corner and there is a tunnel leading to the bottom there and there is a gate there and once I came there I opened the gate.

So you walked in the ground on the grass around the stadium off the pitch behind the goal post until you arrived at the north-east corner? - - - Yes, I was walking with the grass off the pitch and I walked behind the goal post until I reached that point which I have indicated.

On arrival at that point did you find any security there, security officials? - - - There were two security officials, one Viper's person and a black person and both of them standing on each side of the gate.

How were they dressed? - - - They were dressed in bibs though I cannot remember what type of bibs they were wearing.

Before opening the gate did you talk to them? - - - Yes, I spoke to them and informed them that I am now opening the gate and the PSL PRO was also around there.

Is that Mr Dipela? - - - Correct.

What was their reaction to your request to open the gate? - - - The security officials objected to me opening that gate and they said I first have to contact their chief and I heard this white person talking over the radio though I do not know as to whom was he talking to at that stage.

Did you explain to them before as to why you wanted to open that gate? - - - There was no more time.

Was it locked or just closed? - - - It was not locked, it was just closed. It is just a very low gate which prevents spectators from coming onto the pitch.

What finally happened on the gate scenario? - - - I finally opened it.

Mr Chairman, I notice it is 13:45 and I was advised that we should end the session today at 13:45.

COURT: Yes, we will adjourn until tomorrow.

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/aug28a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:36 AM] I have nothing further to the witness, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Barlow?

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/aug28a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:36 AM] aug 28

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/aug28b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:37 AM] aug 28

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/aug28b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:37 AM] aug 28

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supporters, now we have also heard evidence from Mr Malapo that a teargas canister or canisters would have been fired or let off in that corner over there. - - - Yes.

Do you want to comment on that? - - - No.

I am just asking you or putting that to you because we have had at least three or four witnesses, Kwinana, Ms Oliphant, Mr Nyaku and even Mr Hutamo I think yesterday who were all seated in that vicinity of north east corner and not one of them had mentioned the smell of teargas. - - - Well their evidence is not my evidence, I am only testifying about what I saw and what I smelt.

I accept that Mr Mofokeng. Let me just deal with the game of last year 13 June on the Tuesday night.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Arendse are you disputing that there was the teargas problem?

MR ARENDSE: No sir I am not disputing that at all. Perhaps we had the benefit yesterday of Mr Malapo being here, I am just raising that with the witness to find out, he was there maybe he either smelt it while he was in that corner or he may be aware of one or two of his supporters who did. Perhaps laying a basis for us asking some questions of Mr Malapo because it then would appear that either teargas was fired in two places, the north east and south west or someone is mistaken.

CHAIRMAN: Or wind direction.

MR ARENDSE: Sorry?

CHAIRMAN: Or wind direction.

MR ARENDSE: Or wind direction. We will have to consult a meteorologist on that. I know that is obviously possible, sorry I did not mean to be cynical about it. Mr Mofokeng last year's game 13 June by the time that game was played Sundowns had already won the league. - - - Can I ask counsel to confine himself to the events of 11 April 2001 because now I am afraid that very soon counsel will be asking me about events which took place in 1946 or 1936 when Pirates or Chiefs were formed, when counsel was not yet born at that stage.

I am very happy that you say that. Let me put this to you and I suggest to you that you are mistaken about last year's game. Last year in June the league was already won by Sundowns, there were only between 20,000 and 30,000 at the ground and it was not a capacity attendance, and that there were no problems reported and certainly not of the kind that you indicated would have been the case that gate 4 was broken down. - - - I am thankful for the information from counsel but I am not going to reply to that.

Fine, I obviously need to put this to you because my clients are in court and they listen to what you have to say, they draw my attention to certain things. They say that what you refer to must be the game of October, 10 October 1998 and not December as I had earlier referred to. - - - Thank you.

Now we have referred already to the seating. Pirates would sit along there the east, and the south and Chiefs would sit there west and north. - - - That is correct.

Is that just a practise or standing arrangement that whenever there is a game at Ellis Park that that is the case? - - - To answer in respect of these supporters for both these teams Pirates and Kaizer Chiefs we do not normally have to indicate to them as to where to sit at Ellis Park, they know exactly where to sit, that is a normal thing.

So the key, and I am getting sort of towards the suggestions or proposals from the fans about how to avoid what happened on the 11th, is the key more to the pre-selling of tickets than reserved seating? - - - Well I put it to you the research which we have conducted by interviewing various supporters about the idea of having reserved seats it has come to our conclusion that as far as reserved seats are concerned this is going to be more of a problem because this is something which supporters or fans are not used to as such and it will take some time before they really get familiar with that, but what we are encouraging is the pre-selling of tickets that once for instance if certain number of tickets have to be sold, if the number is say about 70,000 and if that whole number of tickets has not yet been sold those remaining tickets if they are to be sold at the stadium they should be sold at a distance of about three kilometres away from the stadium and an announcement should be made through the media about this before the game that those who were unable to can purchase tickets they may obtain these tickets at certain outlets which may be situated at that distance of three kilometres away from the stadium.

Thank you Mr Mofokeng that is extremely useful for football to hear. Now just in terms of tickets, you testified that your ticket was checked, I am not sure whether I heard torn, your ticket was checked at least on two occasions. - - - It was eventually torn as well.

So it would have been there on the west side, did you come through there? That part of the south western corner? - - - Yes when it was torn I was just next to the gate where I had now to go through into the stadium.

So it was checked a couple of times and eventually it was torn and that would be - would that be the case if you enter the ground normally? - - - Yes it is the normal procedure which was being carried out there.

Now just lastly, are you aware of the fact that this fixture which was eventually played on 11 April that that fixture was played after the match had been scheduled for two other, on two other occasions, I think it is 18 and 24 March? - - - Yes.

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/aug28b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:37 AM] aug 28

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If you would turn to photo 54? - - - Yes, that is the one in the middle. I then noticed two members of the SAPS as they manoeuvred their way up the gangway and once they came there I just saw them putting their hands on their heads and they did nothing but just went back again. After some seconds we managed in lifting that barricade with the assistance of other spectators and the injured people were then carried down to the pitch. I carried my own son personally on my shoulder and I placed him on the pitch and as I came onto the pitch I was met by the members of the SAP and they took him away from me. They enquired from me as to whether is anything wrong with me. I told them about the fact that I am limping on my right leg and my main concern is the whereabouts of my daughter, I do not know as to where she is. And amongst the people there on the pitch I met Mangena who is a well- known personality who asked me about my health and I then saw my daughter as she sat there on the ground and I went to her. I sat down there with my daughter and looked at the people, the injured people, as they were brought down and some were then covered with blankets and others with plastic. And I saw the paramedics as they tried to revive my son. The soldiers also came to me to ask me about my health and I indicated that now I am just fine, my concern was my daughter. After some time amongst those who had been covered, I saw something untoward which I will never forget because according to my observation these people were certified as dead but yet they were still alive. We saw the plastic moving there and we pointed towards them together with the spectators on the other side that this person is still breathing. And they ran towards that person and uncovered that person and indeed it was found that this person is still alive and they then attempted to assist this person. After they had tried to revive my son, I saw when his body was then covered with that plastic and a blanket. I sat next to him hoping that by sheer luck he may be certified dead but yet he may still be alive because amongst those who have been certified as dead I saw four of them who then just came awake. I sat for some seconds and then I was ordered to go and get into the helicopter which I had seen landing on the pitch. I then realised that it was not going to be of any assistance for me to sit there because I had realised now my son is dead. I then went out and I went out through the VIP exit being escorted by the security. On coming to the vehicle gate, I found about 8 to 10 Wolf Security members there. The one who was escorting me was a PSL Security because he was dressed in a bib similar to EXHIBIT 6. As I approached the Wolf Security guards who were at the gate they were actually laughing at me saying I am lucky, I will get Good Friday. They did not actually want to let me out but the security officer from PSL requested them to let me out.

Was your daughter with you? - - - Yes.

What was the extent of her injuries? - - - She was not severely or seriously injured but she was just in a state of shock and she had some bruise on her knees and legs.

Did you take her to hospital? - - - Yes, she was taken to hospital.

Directly from the stadium? - - - No, I first took her home, then subsequent to that I took her to the clinic.

Okay, could you comment on the crowd, you said you turned your head and you saw the crowd coming in after you had fallen, could you comment on the crowd? - - - My comment to that will be to the effect that those who then came in fell on top of us, it appeared as if they were being driven from behind or they were fleeing from something.

Approximately how many people? - - - Plus-minus 30 to 35 because that gangway is so narrow but they just came on falling onto us.

Do you want to comment on what happened there that night and what do you think happened, what was the cause of it? - - - I will say that firstly by not deploying enough security officials, that was one of the causes which I noticed as having a contribution to what happened there. Secondly, I will say that from the smell of teargas which I smelt, if that teargas was thrown from the outside, that could have been the cause of that as well. Thirdly, I do not see the necessity of having the game start under such a situation. Those are my inputs.

I have no further questions for this witness.

CHAIRMAN: I am not sure I followed what you said, you said Wolf Security laughed at you and said what, you will have a lucky Friday? - - - They laughed at me saying to me I am lucky because I will be able to get a good Friday.

Was that with reference to the coming Good Friday? - - - I do not know.

We will adjourn now, will you be here tomorrow at 10:00. - - - Yes.

We will adjourn until 10:00 tomorrow morning.

COURT ADJOURNS:

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/aug29a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:38 AM] aug 29

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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instruction is that that is the same as depicted on the photograph. There might be slight differences because of the scale on which the drawing is made.

MR SEMENYA: My difficulty is the gate on the plan would have been a pedestrian access gate is it not?

MR COETZEE: The gate on the what sorry?

MR SEMENYA: On the map there, would have been a pedestrian access point and the one on 29 is not a pedestrian access point it is for motor vehicles.

MR COETZEE: Mr Deputy Commissioner no, my instructions are in order for spectators to reach the gates, gates 10, 11 and 12 they had to pass through this gate, this sliding gate here which depicted on photograph 29, that is my instructions that that sliding gate there was manned, people were standing there and as a first check before they get to the actual gates 10, 11 and 12.

MR SEMENYA: With no channelling and no turnstiles, nothing?

MR COETZEE: My instructions is that as a norm there is channelling, one would see on this picture here that there is the holes in which the channelling are positioned and the channels, there are channels on the picture to the right against the wall, the loose channels are there which are in fact on occasion when there are games placed in those holes which are removable. It is also used as a motor gate, but on the day of the game the channels was placed inside those holes for channelling of spectators into the stadium.

MR SEMENYA: Is there any problem if you were to ask him about - base your questioning about what we see there?

MR COETZEE: About?

MR SEMENYA: Would it be any problem if you were to question the witness on the basis of what we see there on the big screen as opposed to photo 29? Would that make any difference to your questioning of the witness?

MR COETZEE: Mr Commissioner first of all as he has stated where he saw personnel from Wolf Security, as you would recall he said he saw them there where they were informed that the tickets were sold out and that he in fact at gate 10 where he entered saw PSL security, that is why I want to lead up to the stage as to when Wolf Security were in fact deployed so that he can answer - it is very difficult on a flat map for people to orientate themselves, that is why I refer to the picture in order to see whether that would assist the witness in orientating himself as to where he saw the Wolf Security.

MR SEMENYA: Well it does not, it is confusing him. Photo 29 is confusing.

MR COETZEE: It seems to me that ... (intervenes).

MR SEMENYA: But that does not confuse him.

MR COETZEE: I will deal with it on the map.

MR SEMENYA: That is what I am suggesting.

MR COETZEE: I will deal with it. Sir can I ask you do you dispute that the Wolf Security Personnel were at that gate, the one at Ove Street, the motor gate where channelling is? - - - Is it at the first gate?

Mr Commissioner that is where it gets difficult for me because ... (intervenes).

MR SEMENYA: According to your instructions would there be another access point before you enter the stadium?

MR COETZEE: Mr Commissioner indeed so. My instruction is that there is also a gate at the junction of Ove and Upper Railway .

MR SEMENYA: No, no that I understand but I am trying to ascertain the evidence of the witness is clearly this that there was a point immediately before entering the stadium itself, where there was access check points where there was security, where his ticket was checked, and I am trying to establish on your case whether it would be the gate shown on Ove or the one inside the perimeter.

MR COETZEE: That indeed is so Mr Commissioner. There at the entrance of gate 10, my hands are shaking, at the entrance of gate 10 there is also turnstiles and there is also security personnel from Wolf checking tickets at that area. If I can just make that clear there is a dual point, unlike at the other points where there are gates, there are a dual point where Wolf are deployed, at the Rowe gate as well as a couple of metres further on at the actual gate where you enter into the stadium, they are deployed at that specific point at both those points. Earlier or prior to this area if you go further from the stadium that would have been Stallion that would have been deployed there and not Wolf Security. - - - The Wolf Security personnel I saw them at the gate that is now the gate in front of Ove Street where it is written right of admission reserved and subject to search. That is where I saw them. The gate which counsel is now referring to that will be now the one in between, that gate was open, there were no security officials at that gate.

As depicted on photograph 29 in fact that gate, the sliding gate there was broken down during the course of the evening, it was broken. - - - I won't dispute that at all, as counsel has earlier put to me that Wolf Security Personnel were deployed at this gate, could be once that gate had been broken then they moved away from that gate and came to where I then saw them.

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immediately pick up where Captain Molapo leave off as far as the teargas aspect is concerned. In other words, to interject that witness even before we resume with this witness. I think it would be useful if one did that. So that was my suggestion for the future, the next two witnesses for the Commission, and I do not know how far we will proceed with the inspector this afternoon.

CHAIRMAN: We will excuse you for now but I am sure Mr Attwell will let you know when you have to be back. - - - Yes.

It may even be next week. - - - It is fine.

Then we will adjourn until tomorrow at 10:00.

COURT ADJOURNS:

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/aug30a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:41 AM] aug 30

Now the gentleman who gave the order for the teargas to be thrown, the man with the eye patch whom I understand it, you have identified as Mr Kruger who stood up in court, have you dealt with Mr Kruger previously prior to this incident? Was he well-known to you? - - - No, I used to see him just from a distance.

So you had seen him from a distance before this incident happened? - - - Before this incident occurred, I had been with him there at the gate at the time when there was an argument about a spectator who wanted to bring a bottle containing liquor into the stadium which I then subsequently confiscated and poured out that liquor and then I was with him again at the time when we were at the gate. That is when he gave an order that teargas should be used.

Do you have any reason, has anything happened between yourself and Mr Kruger which would lead you to falsely implicate him in throwing such teargas if he did not throw any teargas or give an order, I beg your pardon. - - - No.

Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: It is not clear to me whether you were seeing Mr Kruger for the first time that night. - - - Mr Chairman, I was seeing him for the first time on that night.

And that night you saw him on two occasions? - - - No, Mr Chairman, I actually saw him on three occasions. The first occasion would have been at the gate during the argument over the liquor which the spectator wanted to bring into the stadium and then on the second occasion was when he gave the order that the teargas should be used and on the third occasion I saw him on the pitch at the time when they gave an order that the bodies should be removed from the scene and I then objected to this saying that this cannot happen that these bodies should be removed from the scene before the arrival of the police. Mr Chairman, if the video footage could be played, it is appearing on the video where I was stopping some of the security officials as they were carrying a body away and I ordered them to take that body back.

Mr Arendse?

MR ARENDSE: Chairperson, there is just two witness statements I wish to draw attention to. These witnesses (inaudible - not speaking into microphone) and I am not sure whether they are going to .. because you will recall that until now the witness (inaudible) and none of them have testified about teargas and I do not know whether it is because they were asked or whether they did not smell it (inaudible). There are two witnesses's statements that have been made available to us where there is mention of teargas. The one is by Bibi Madiba, witness 8 on the list and the other one is by Aswen Webster, witness 11. I am not sure whether I should read the relevant portions on the record and ask Mr Molapo to comment. I do not have any questions.

CHAIRMAN: I do not know whether those witnesses are going to be called. I cannot say. But shouldn't we leave it at that point?

MR ARENDSE: As you please, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRMAN: Because they may not be called those witnesses and you would have as it were jump a little bit ahead and put the contents of those statements to Mr Molapo. I think let us hold it there. Thank you. Mr Wepener?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WEPENER: Mr Molapo, there are two aspects which I would like to deal with you in relation to your evidence, maybe a third as well. - - - Yes.

The first relates to the time of the incident on 11 April and the assistance that was given to injured and deceased persons. - - - Well, in respect of the time, the times that I have given or indicated in my statements, these times are just a mere estimation because if I was maybe expecting that something was indeed going to happen, I would have then have been looking at the time and then I would then have been in a position to can tell what the time was but if something happens unexpectedly, then one does not have the opportunity to can look at time. Hence the times which I gave or mentioned in my statements, these were just estimations.

You did see Mr Bokaba in May (indistinct). Is that correct? - - - That is correct.

And you were then as now a busy man and you eventually with the permission of Orlando Pirates club made a statement to Director Ruth. - - - That is correct.

And as you have earlier stated, your actions at all times and in giving the statement to Director Ruth was on behalf of Orlando Pirates. - - - That is correct.

The first issue and I know you said that you cannot be specific on times, the first issue is that you did see Captain Mkwanazi in the North Park Lane area that night. - - - That is correct.

Did you see any other POP members in that area as well? - - - Yes, that is correct.

And it is also a specific area in North Park Lane where the police officials parked their vehicles which included that night a Nyala vehicle. - - - There were several police vehicles. It is correct.

Now Captain Mkwanazi had the advantage that the record or the transcript of the radio record is available of conversations that took place that night. - - - I won't know about that.

Well, you can accept that. You know that the police record some of the radio conversations and that one can then listen to them. - - - It is true.

And having regard to the record, he can then say that as a result of somebody referring to the score at approximately 20:17-18 that evening, he went into the vomitory at gate 4. - - - I cannot dispute that.

That is the area beyond the scaffolding that he went in order to go and assist injured persons. - - - I cannot dispute that.

He and his men then brought from the vomitory area quite a number, and I will give you the correct figure, of injured or deceased people after 20:17/18. - - - I cannot deny that.

These were the people that were placed on the outside of the stadium and which some of the paramedics attended to and some of the people who had died. - - - I agree with that. Some we then carried onto the pitch inside the stadium.

I will get to that. I am now dealing if you look, you have got the bundle there with you, photograph 12. (inaudible) - - - Yes.

And not inside. - - - These are the people I referred to in my testimony that we had to leave them there. One of them is actually a Kaizer Chief's fan who is dressed in yellow garment as depicted on photo 12 next to the scaffolding.

My statement to you was that Captain Mkwanazi and his men brought these people from beyond the scaffolding from inside the vomitory they were brought up. - - - I am not denying that.

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/aug30a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:41 AM] aug 30

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MR LOUW: Yes, it is purely a matter of (inaudible) it is purely a matter of naming the right party.

MR SEMENYA: Yes.

MR LOUW: Let me rephrase that Mr Deputy Chair. Would you agree with me Mr Molapo that the guards which you are presently observing on the big screen are not the Viper Protection Services guards in view of what I have stated to you? - - - I regarded them as officials from Viper currently I am still regarding them as officials from Viper because I do not know them. I have seen them during events at Ellis Park and I have always regarded them as officials from Viper so it is there for counsel to rectify this.

Notwithstanding the fact that they do not bear any Viper Protection Services identification marks on their uniform? - - - They are some time in their company at the stadium.

In whose company Mr Molapo? - - - These security officials do mix with each other. Well those from ... (intervenes).

MR SEMENYA: Mr Louw I think that if you just create an argument that does not exist. The witness says I was under the impression that these people were Viper. I am hearing from you if you say they are VIP but all along I have been under the impression that they are Viper, but all I can say to you is that these are the people that I described, I talked about and we now all know that these are not Viper. All he is saying is that well I was under the impression that they were Viper.

MR LOUW: I was testing the basis of that impression, especially in the absence of no identification marks on the armoured uniform.

MR SEMENYA: If he can give a good explanation why he thinks this is Viper will that make us believe him that this is Viper?

MR LOUW: I hope not Mr Chairman.

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/aug30b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:41 AM] aug 30

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/aug30c.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:42 AM] aug 30

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Is he from which security?

MR LOUW: Stallion.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Stallion what, Security, Events?

MR LOUW: Stallion Events.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The holding company?

MR LOUW: The holding company is Stallion Holdings (Pty) Ltd, the Stallion. The Stallion Events company forms part of the group, as does the security company, it falls within the same group.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Well then the simple thing is to say to Mr Molapo, Mr Kruger will deny that he gave such instruction that the teargas be thrown or released amongst the crowd. - - - Today he will not agree to that but it is the truth.

MR LOUW: Mr Kruger will testify further that at a stage much earlier than that he had entered through gate 4 but from the inside of the stadium on the way to the outer perimeter fence at North Park Lane where he was despatched to go and do duties and that he did not return to gate 4 subsequent to that? - - - He was at gate 4.

Mr Kruger will also state that he has no authority under the AIN Security personnel, he has no jurisdiction over them, he was not in a position to give commands. - - - I do not know about that.

Do you agree with me that on your version that a civilian person has no authority over an armed guard?

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I do not know that to be the case. I have seen a minister try and do certain things in civilian clothes.

MR LOUW: I will withdraw that question. Mr Molapo, to your knowledge were the alleged teargas canister or canisters ever found? - - - I do not know.

Were there any burn marks or markings on the tarmac or in that vicinity where you believe the canister could have landed which you are aware of? - - - I do not know.

You would agree with me that teargas has a very severe effect on a person who comes under it? - - - That is correct, like in this case it had a severe effect.

And would you, in your experience agree with me that it would for instance be impossible to sit and watch soccer once you come under teargas? - - - Like who?

If you were a normal spectator in the crowd, in your experience, would you be able to sit still and observe a soccer match albeit that you can smell the teargas? - - - Yes, for instance when it is discharged then it was some distance away from where you were, yes, it can affect you in the sense that it might irritate your eyes and your nose will immediately pick up the smell unlike a person who was close to where it was discharged, he will be more affected. According to me those who were at gate 4 outside, that is why they were able to can push onto those who were inside because they were fleeing.

You have testified elsewhere in the record, and I have pointed that out to you, that there was substantial climbing over the scaffolding before the teargas was discharged. Now you dispute that. Can you offer an explanation as to in these circumstances why people simply did not run out from gate 4 instead of running in? - - - If you were to look at photograph 12, the people depicted there are trapped in the channelling, there is no way of when you flee that you can run backwards. All you have to do is to run forward and those who come from behind will push on you and crush on you. You cannot even run to the sides.

If I understood you correctly you said at the time most people had gone in already, in other words that there was not people pressing from behind or closing the entrances from behind? - - - There were people.

Are you aware whether anybody was treated in the medical rooms for teargas inhalation as a result of inhaling it in the vicinity of entrance 4? - - - I am not aware of that.

Are you aware whether anybody was deceased from inappropriate exposure to teargas?

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: What does that mean?

MR LOUW: Mr Deputy Chair, from what I understand one could in fact ... (intervenes)

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: How can a witness ever say somebody died as a result of inappropriate exposure to teargas?

MR LOUW: I was merely asking that because Mr Molapo is a policeman, he mentioned inquests, so I assume he might have some information. If he does not ... (intervenes)

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Assuming he has attended as a policeman at the inquests, how can he express an opinion?

MR LOUW: If he is not aware of anything, such information, then obviously, if he is not in a position I would agree with you, Mr Deputy Chairman.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: It is such an expert opinion you are seeking from a witness in a field quite different.

MR LOUW: Yes. I note that it is 16:00.

CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Attwell, counsel suggested that perhaps we should not sit on Fridays. I think it escaped our mind this morning.

MR ATTWELL: I think a number of the parties that are present here are waiting for a final decision, obviously we are in your hands, Mr Commissioner. I think the feeling expressed earlier was that if we were going to reach a critical point this afternoon or for another witness it might have served some purpose to sit tomorrow. Otherwise the view had been expressed that a short session on a Friday may not be that productive. So we are in your hands, sir, we are awaiting your ruling on that issue.

CHAIRMAN: Do you want to say something? I am sorry that we did not come back to you but I think we will adjourn now until Monday and then every Friday we will not sit, hopefully to enable counsel to conduct consultations and tidy up things. Adv Semenya reminds me to say that we hope that we will co-operate because of losing a day out every week we will try please to be to the point and you know the conduct of proceedings, otherwise will sit here until next year. We will adjourn until Monday.

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When the incident took place at the second and the third gate where you noticed the reclosing of the gates, did you also notice the Wolf Security members there? - - - They were also assisting in closing that gate.

So the police and the Wolf Security members were together trying to stop the spectators by closing that gate. - - - That is correct.

And did you also then recognise them by their red bibs? - - - That is so.

And the motor vehicle which you saw with the police in, the Golf motor vehicle that came, do you know the police official in that vehicle? - - - I do not know them.

But when you saw him arriving there, did you see what he did there? What assistance did he render there at the gates, 2 and 3? - - - They alighted from the Golf and ran towards the gates and at that stage I noticed that an attempt was now being made to close the gates.

You yourself also assisted them in the closing of that gate? - - - No.

But were you in that area until the gate was actually closed? - - - Yes, I stood next to the turnstiles.

And after this gate was now physically closed, did these police officials once again leave the scene? - - - Yes, they left the area and they got back into their vehicle and made a U-turn.

CHAIRMAN: Why are you so interested in Mr Wepener's clients? Why are you so interested in another man's clients?

MR COETZEE: Mr Commissioner, you will recall that there was evidence by the witness, if I may just get to that, his name, Velli Mpungose .. whose is a police official in that motor vehicle, about an incident which took place at gates 2 and 3 .. I am sorry, Mr Skosana, I am very sorry for the surname, of an incident at that gate whereby he (indistinct) members of Wolf Security apparently selling tickets to members .. not selling tickets but taking money from the people to allow them into the stadium and this witness was also in that area at that stage. May I continue then? Sir, after they left - you said they got into the motor vehicle. Did they leave the stadium? - - - Made a U-turn and drove towards the main gate.

Where they also previously entered? If I understand your evidence correctly, they entered in the main gate and they also returned through the main gate. - - - No, they did not enter as such. There is a tarred street there. They just made a U-turn on that tarred street and drove back in the direction of the main gate.

Now as you were then moving towards gate 4 and when you arrived at gate 4, did you notice whether the gate was closed, gate 4 was closed? - - - No,spectators were coming in. It was not closed.

But do you know whether that gate was broken open or whether they were still going in in the normally way, their tickets being checked by security personnel? - - - Security officials were there and tickets were being checked. A Wolf Security officer was checking the tickets.

Now can you estimate the time when was that? - - - I do not know the exact time but it was just something after seven.

My instruction is at 19:15 which is quarter past seven gates 2 and 3 as well as gate 4 were closed already. - - - That is incorrect because as far as gates 1, 2 and 3 are concerned, these gates were closed whilst I was still there but I cannot commit myself about time because I did not have time. I am disputing the fact that the gate was closed.

As to gates 1, 2 and 3 that you are referring to, my instruction is that gates 2 and 3 were closed, there were still spectators that were admitted in gate 1 as it left to the upper stairs of the stadium. - - - I am not aware of that.

Did I understand your evidence then correctly that whilst gates 4 was still open and operating with the security personnel, with Wolf Security personnel, that the teargas was thrown during that stage? - - - That was my testimony namely that the security officials were there and I thought that or I got the impression that when the teargas was discharged or thrown, this was done with an attempt to can close the gate because after the teargas, it appeared to me as if that gate was now closed. I am not sure.

CHAIRMAN: We, will adjourn for 15 minutes.

PROCEEDINGS ADJOURN

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MR FARBER: The noise that you heard at that time can you quickly try and describe the noise you heard? - - - Noise of people crying.

Crying? - - - Yes.

Crying tears or screaming?

CHAIRMAN: Let us not (inaudible) semantics. I think we should (inaudible).

COMMISSION ADJOURNS

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En u is tans getroud met die dogter van mnr. Chaka Coetzee? - - - Dis korrek.

U dra 'n oogklap, kan u vir die hof of die kommissie net verduidelik hoe het dit gebeur dat u u oog beskadig het? - - - In kort, in September 1992 was ek in 'n groot kar ongeluk betrokke gewees en ek het my oog daar verloor.

Dit is 'n permanente probleem wat u het? - - - Dis korrek ja.

Ons het ook gehoor dat u mank loop, is dit ook as gevolg van daardie motorbotsing? - - - Dis korrek, my regter been is so twee en 'n half duim korter as my linker been.

Hoe lank is u in diens van Viper Protection Services? - - - As ons hierdie jaar saamvat is dit die tweede jaar wat ek saam met hulle werk.

Op die laat middag en aand van 11 April hierdie jaar was u wel aan diens as a Viper Protection Services lid by Ellis Park Stadium? - - - Dis korrek ja, ek het die radio gedra.

Hoe laat het u daar begin werk amptelik? - - - Plus minus ses-uur.

Dit is ses-uur in die aand, 18:00? - - - Dis korrek ja.

En wat in besonder was u plig, en saam met wie was u om daardie plig te verrig? - - - Ek was saam met tien swart lede gewees van die "bouncers", en my (onhoorbaar) plig was radio kommunikasie met Erwin en die "jock".

Hoe was u aangetrek gewees, en hoe was u kollegas wat saam met u beweeg het aangetrek gewees? - - - Ek het alles in swart aangehad, swart skoene, swart kouse, swart denim broek, swart hemp met 'n swart baadjie.

Was daar enige aanduiding, kenteken, dat u vir Viper Protection Services werk? - - - Nee, want ek het net die radio as sulks gedra.

U kollegas van Viper wat saam met u daar beweeg het, hoe was hulle aangetrek gewees? - - - Almal in swart met "bibs" aan.

Sal u asseblief na, ek dink dit is BEWYSSTUK 8 kyk, en net vir ons verduidelik of dit die onderhemp is of "bib" is waarna u verwys? - - - Dis die "bib", dis korrek ja.

BEWYSSTUK 8. En wat was u plig gewees dié nag gewees? - - - Ek moes net saam met my span loop en hulle, as daar 'n probleem iewerste is, omdat ek die radio dra, hulle na 'n rigting toe neem waar daar dalk 'n klein insident of 'n klein probleem sou gewees het, ons dit kon gaan uitsorteer het.

Wat, in besonder, is Viper se opdrag dan? Hoe moet hulle dan te werk gaan as daar nou so 'n insident is? - - - So vinnig as moontlik, probeer om die situasie op te los deur die persone wat 'n rusie maak of 'n bakleiery is uit die stadium uit te neem, uit die oog van al die publiek, van die publiek uit.

Wat se voorwerpe/wapens dra enige van die Viper Protection Services mense om hierdie dienste en hierdie pligte te verrig? - - - Net hulself, daar is geen wapens nie.

Nou kan u kortliks vir die kommissie u bewegings daardie nag verduidelik? Daar is 'n groot kaart daar agter u, daar is ook 'n, een van daardie laser liggies, as u dan net u stem baie duidelik asseblief op die mikrofoon, net verduidelik hoe u beweeg het, en die tye dan ook gee soos u beweeg het. - - - Ons het plus minus ses-uur hier by die hoofhek, die hoof motorhek bymekaar gekom.

Dit is agterkant die westelike paviljoen, daar in Curreyweg? - - - Dis korrek ja.

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So daar was 'n erger drukking toe daar van binne die stadium 'n gejuig was? - - - Dit is korrek ja.

En u sê in die volgende sin: "I believe that at this time that a goal was scored"? - - - Dit is wat ek, ek het dit gedink op daardie stadium. Ek weet nie, ek was nie binne-in die stadion nie, ek het dit maar net van buitekant af gehoor. Daar was 'n baie groot gejuig vanaf die binnekant van die stadium.

Om dit binne 'n tyd konteks te plaas, u sê net daarna: "At 20:10 I was instructed to take my team and start cleaning the occupied suites", is dit korrek? - - - Dit is plus-minus tyd, tussen 20:00, 20:10, ek weet nie, ek kan nie sê wat die tyd was daardie tyd nie.

Dit kan later ook wees? - - - Nee, ek glo nie dit kan later wees nie.

U glo nie? - - - Ek glo nie so nie, ek het met mnr Law gepraat en mnr Law het gesê dit was omtrent 20:00 wat hy ons ontbied het van die hoofhek af.

U werk die tyd uit na aanleiding van u gesprek met mnr Law? - - - Dit is hy wat my die instruksie gegee het om die losies te gaan skoonmaak ja.

En as sy tye verkeerd is dan is u tye verkeerd? - - - Dit is korrek.

Goed, want ek sal hom wys as hy kom getuig hoe verkeerd sy tyd is. Nou namens u is daar aan mnr Molapo gestel dat u op daardie stadium glad nie meer in die "vicinity" van hek 4 was nie, u was nou binne-in die stadium om suites te gaan skoonmaak? - - - Ek was glad nie naby hek 4 gewees nie, die naaste wat ek aan hek 4 was was omtrent 30 meter.

VISE-VOORSITTER: Ek dink die stelling gaan verder, dit sê omtrent daardie tyd was u in die JOC gewees? - - - Ek was plus-minus daardie tyd, ek kan eerlikwaar nie vir u sê wat die tyd was nie, soos wat ek dit kan verstaan, soos wat ek later gehoor het het ek 20:00 opdrag gekry om deur te gaan en begin losies skoon te maak en toe kom die oproep van die JOC af en dit is toe waarna toe ek is. Ek weet nie hoe laat dit presies kan wees nie.

Wat ek kan nie verstaan is nou kan ons vasstel dat dit was nou om en by 19:35 toe u by die North Park Lane was? - - - Ja, ek was die heeltyd by North Park Lane daar in daardie omgewing, daar by daardie hekke gewees.

Wil u sê vanaf 19:15 tot om en by 20:10 was u daaromtrent gewees? - - - Dit is korrek ja, van hier af hier so, dit is korrek ja.

Dit is net later, om en by 20:15, wat u na die JOC gegaan het? - - - Omtrent 20:00 is ek geroep hier na die pad toe en toe gesê dat ek losies moet skoonmaak van hierdie kant af wat ek gedoen het. Ek was omtrent halfpad met daardie seksie daar gewees toe hulle op die radio roep dat ek moet deurgaan JOC toe. So dit kan so 20 minute, 25 minute, ek kan nie presies sê hoelank na die tyd nie.

Wat ek kan nie verstaan is mnr Molapo se getuienis was gewees dat omtrent 19:30 sou die traangas daar gegooi wees, dan sê die stelling deur mnr Louw dit kon nie gewees het dat u die opdrag gegee het nie want daardie tyd was u nie in daardie omgewing en inderdaad was u in die JOC gewees daardie tyd? - - - Ek weet nie, daar behoort 'n inskrywing te wees in een van die JOC se rekords hoe laat ek in die JOC ingekom het. Ek weet nie waar, want ek was in die JOC gewees. Ek weet nie of daar 'n inskrywing was daarvan nie.

Wat ek wil vasstel is was dit u se onderhoud met mnr Louw dat tydens die traangas insident was u nie daar nie, u was in die JOC gewees? - - - As dit daardie tyd is was ek glad nie daar by hek 4 gewees nie ja.

Nee, wat ek wil vasstel is het u aan mnr Louw gesê tydens die traangas insident wat om en by 19:30 sou gewees het u nie daar was maar wel in die JOC gewees het? - - - 19:30 nee, toe was ek by North Park Lane gewees, toe was ek daar gewees 19:30.

MNR WEPENER: Kan ek dit net een stap verder vat, op u geheue, u gedagte, of dit nou reg of verkeerd was, was u na die JOC toe geroep om 20:15, so enigsins na 20:15 was u nie meer in Noordparklaan nie? - - - Nee, onthou ek was in die losies op die tweede vlak, op die eerste vlak van die eerste losies gewees en omtrent 20:15 is ek van daar af geroep, so voor die tyd was ek besig om losies skoon te maak.

Voordat u geroep is? - - - Dit is korrek ja, plus-minus.

... (tolk en mnr Wepener praat saam, onhoorbaar) op u eie geheue staat te maak? - - - Dit is korrek.

Was u van 20:10 die aand nie meer in Noordparklaan nie? - - - Dit is korrek.

Maar voor dit was u wel daar? - - - Dit is korrek.

Want anders kon u nie al die dinge van die polisie sê wat u wel sê nie? - - - Dit is korrek.

U is wel geroep en toe u by die losies kom was die spel aan?

- - - Dit is korrek.

Meen u dat u geloof dat 'n doel aangeteken was terwyl u daar buite was reg was? - - - Soos ek voorheen gesê het ek weet nie, ek was nie binne-in die stadion om te weet of daar 'n doel was of nie. Ek het aangeneem dat dit 'n doel was, toe ons die losies ook skoongemaak het daar was nie tyd gewees om na die sokker te kyk nie.

U het geweet dat toe die eerste doel aangeteken is u nog buite was? - - - Ek het so gedink ja.

VOORSITTER: Mnr Kruger, waar kry mnr Louw die opdrag dat om en by 19:15 was u in die JOC gewees? - - - Omtrent kwart oor sewe?

Ja. - - - Ek het nie 'n idee nie. Dit was omtrent 20:15.

Well maybe it only tells us that you know we should keep strictly to the cases of our respective clients and not, you know, tresspass on certain areas which do not belong to our own clients. I think we should adjourn until tomorrow at 10:00.

Mr Ledwaba, do I now formally excuse Mr Molapo?

MR LEDWABA: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: Well he must have left already but anyway, we hereby formally excuse him.

MR LEDWABA: I appreciate that.

COURT ADJOURNS

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ons nie gewapen wees nie. Ons mag glad nie vuurwapens of ammunisie of enigiets van die aard by ons dra nie. As hulle toestemming het, weet ek nie daarvan nie.

Now when you say the securities were not armed, what do you mean by that because just to get to the point quickly. One sees on the video for example people dressed in riot gear armed with these electric batons. Even I know that PSL Security were armed with knopkieries. So what do you mean when you say that you were not armed? - - - Soos wat ek so staan, so het ek gaan werk behalwe ek het swart aangehad.

Unarmed? - - - Ongewapen.

(inaudible) a spectator or hundreds or thousands of spectators for that matter from breaching the other perimeter fences, from breaching the inner perimeter fence, from breaching the gates, how are you going to deter those persons from doing that if you are dressed as you are? - - - Ons het die hekke toegehou as groepe - as groepe om die hekke toe te hou hierdie kant. Ons kon nie die breuke keer nie. Ons kon nie keer dat die mense aan die onderpunt van North Park Lane deurbreek nie. Ons het nie genoeg mense of genoeg hande gehad nie.

I know and I think we know, that (inaudible) to stop the spectators of getting into the northeast area, what I want to know how you proposed doing that apart from simply go (inaudible)? - - - Ons taak is slegs as daar klein probleme wat binne-in die stadium en buite die stadium is, om dit op te los.

MR SEMENYA: Alright just on that point. Somebody who has sneaked in a brandy bottle, that would be a Viper situation to resolve? - - - Mnr die Ondervoorsitter, as die mense by die hekke nie daardie ou kan keer nie, met 'n gewone wedstryd waar daar nie so baie druk of probleme by hekke is nie, waar daar 'n normale vloei is, ons staan agter die hekbeamptes wat die kaartjies kyk en kyk dat die mense nie ongewenste voorwerpe inbring nie, as daar iemand is wat nie wil saamwerk nie, dan sal ons ingaan en gaan sê maar kyk die ou het vir jou gesê dit is nie so, dit staan bo-op die hek is daar kennisgewings ook, julle moet dit asseblief buitekant gaan doen. Julle kan dit nie hier binne doen nie.

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/sept4b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:47 AM] sept 4b

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MR ARENDSE: (Inaudible). It was also put, and I speak under correction I do not have the transcript here so feel free to correct me, that you were wearing your Viper protection outfit, you were engaged as a member of the Viper team but you were not the team leader. - - - Dit is korrek.

You carried a radio and took orders from the team leader. - - - Dit is korrek.

You had no authority to issue orders to your team or to AIN. - - - Dit is korrek.

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MR THERON: No, I am the legal advisor for ... (indistinct) who is not available at the moment to ... (inaudible)

CHAIRMAN: He what?

MR THERON: He had an urgent commitment.

CHAIRMAN: Are you his client?

MR THERON: Yes.

CHAIRMAN: What do you want us to do?

MR THERON: We do not have questions, that is fine thank you.

CHAIRMAN: Can I record that you have no questions at all?

MR THERON: Indeed, thank you. Thank you.

CHAIRMAN: Sorry, Mr who?

MR THERON: Nico Theron.

CHAIRMAN: Sorry?

MR THERON: Nico Theron. Thank you.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Louw?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LOUW: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Kruger, if I understand Mr Molapo's evidence correctly he testified that you wore civilian clothes, that there were identifiable Viper members in black uniforms and also that there were the armoured type guard. Now, from your evidence it seems that you were wearing black clothes, is that correct? - - - Dit is reg.

Would that - would you consider that to be the Viper uniform? - - - Dit is reg ja.

Now, correct me if I am wrong, it seems that you are not sure whether you wore the bib, the Viper bib. - - - Ek is nie seker of ek 'n "bib" aangehad het of nie. Ek is - eerlikwaar, ek kan nie sê dat ek wel 'n "bib" aangehad het of nie.

Maar u het die swart oogklap aangehad? - - - Dit is reg.

Mr Chairman, if I may place on record at this stage, we - it has come to our knowledge that there might be video footage showing Mr Kruger, which will clarify the issue of what he was wearing and the eye flap. We have not see it yet. At a later stage it might become appropriate to show that video, obviously in context of this witness's evidence. We have been unable to do it so far, it has come to our knowledge very recently.

CHAIRMAN: Where is that?

MR LOUW: I beg your pardon Mr Chairman?

CHAIRMAN: Where is that video?

MR LOUW: We have not received it yet Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: From who?

MR ATTWELL: Mr Chairperson, can I perhaps be of assistance. My learned colleague for Ellis Park produced this particular video just before the resumption here at 14:00 and there is some indication that there may be, what I think Mr Louw is referring to on this video. We will obviously though need for the matter to stand down for a moment. I think it may well be important. If the event can be identified as the night of 11 April and if Mr Kruger is in fact on this video that may resolve some of the important issues that have been raised, but I will then have to ask, I have not seen this video, it was made available to me just at 14:00 this afternoon. If it is important, and that is where Mr Louw is going to go, may we ask for a short adjournment and we can perhaps just put this in and confirm this. I am told that it may be stopped at the point or roughly at the point at which we may need to see this. Obviously if this is a three-hour tape it is going to need some time to go through it, but if we can identify the time and Mr Kruger's appearance on the tape it may be a short adjournment that we need merely to put that before the commission and for the purposes of further examination.

CHAIRMAN: You say it has been in ... (indistinct)

MR ATTWELL: It was made available to me at about 14:00 by Mr Antrobus from Ellis Park. There is some indication that this may be the tape and this may resolve one or two of the issues that we are dealing with.

CHAIRMAN: So you want us to adjourn?

MR ATTWELL: If we can adjourn for five minutes and we can have a look at that, I may - we may reconvene. If we cannot find it now, and it does not mean it is not on the tape, I can take this home tonight, or someone else can and we can perhaps confirm that overnight, but that is going to mean that someone needs to go through this tape quite carefully.

CHAIRMAN: Yes, just a minute. (Background discussion.) Right, we will adjourn for five minutes.

MR ATTWELL: Thank you.

PROCEEDINGS ADJOURN

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

(Kruger - p1501) @ HD> $***%

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So was gate 3 closed at that point? - - - Yes.

Now are you able to say what that group of let us say you estimate it at some 70 did at the point where gate 3 was now closed and they were prevented from entering there, did they go to another gate or did they remain outside gate 3 or are you unable to say? - - - I do not know as to what happened to them but because of the fact that people were running up and down there, I think they also ran to other gates which they thought were still open.

What colour and type of car were you driving that night? - - - A white Mazda.

Do you know Mr Fanie Molapo? - - - Yes, I know him.

Did you see him there that evening? - - - I do not recall as to whether I saw him or not, I do not know.

You do not recall whether he was in the vicinity when you were dealing with the incident at gate 3? - - - No, I do not recall.

Now I think you said in your evidence that at a certain point you received a message that spectators were injured and you were required to go to assist. - - - Yes.

Would you have received that message over the radio? - - - That is correct.

And were you yourself carrying a radio or was one of the men with you the radio operator? - - - I was in charge of them, so I was the one who had a radio.

And can you recall where you were at the stage when that message was received that you should go and assist with injured spectators? - - - I think we were around here where I have just indicated.

Sorry, can I ask you again? You indicate outside the outside perimeter fence on the eastern side south of the swimming pool? - - - Yes.

And at that point you were patrolling on foot? - - - Yes, we were patrolling on foot.

And the aim of that foot patrol was really to conduct crime prevention amongst cars parked outside the stadium etcetera as I understood your evidence? - - - Yes.

Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: We will adjourn until tomorrow at 10:00.

COURT ADJOURNS:

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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side of the swimming pool. - - - There were such ticket booths but we then just walked through between Johannesburg Stadium and Ellis Park into Ehrent Street.

What I am getting at, Mr Skosana, you did not notice a big problem in that area. - - - Well, I will concede that I did not notice a big problem and as I said earlier in my evidence that at that time I did notice three members of the SAPS who were doing patrol duty there and had there been .. had a big problem arose there, I believe that those three police officers whom I had seen patrolling there, would have attended to that problem.

Would you have noticed the big problem, you obviously would have attended to the problem? - - - Yes.

Why I am asking you this, we were furnished with the transcription of channel 27, the police channel 27, which if I understand correctly was not the channel you were on. - - - Yes, channel 27 is the channel used by POP.

But on this channel of POP already at 19:15, and I am referring Mr Commissioner it is SAP10, at 19:15 there was a request from the JOG towards Captain Mkwanazi to send people to the North Park Lane because we had a big problem there. - - - I believe that I would not have heard that as I was not on channel 27 and furthermore that my concentrations and my functions were based on the cars or motor vehicles there. I was not on channel 27. I was on channel 60.

In the time that the police were experiencing big problems in the North Park Lane area, you moved through the North Park Lane area without observing any problems.

MR SEMENYA: Is it correct that he moved through the North Park Lane area?

MR COETZEE: Mr Commissioner, in Bate Street is the North Park Lane area which he confirmed that he walked through the North Park area.

MR SEMENYA: Are there no buildings somewhere?

MR COETZEE: Not there. There are not buildings there in that area. The buildings are to the northwest there are buildings but through here up to where the Johannesburg Stadium is, there are not buildings.

MR SEMENYA: I am having a witness who tells me that when he was at gate 3, he cannot see gate 4. It is too far. He cannot see what is happening at gate 4. He goes through Upper Road there. He goes into Bate area and you say he must be seeing what is happening around 4, 5 and 6.

MR COETZEE: No, that is not what I am saying.

MR SEMENYA: Oh.

MR COETZEE: The North Park Lane area as I understood it is the side outside the outer perimeter. It is in that area where the ticket booths are. Mr Commissioner .. (intervenes)

MR SEMENYA: Alright.

MR COETZEE: The evidence has been so far that at that stage there were already problems at that area outside the perimeter.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Coetzee, your question cannot be well premised. You cannot say to the witness at the time when you walked past North Park Lane, unless I misheard your question, there was a problem. That is not your question.

MR COETZEE: No, Mr Commissioner, I am asking from the police radio and also from the JOG reports, from various of the JOG members there were already at 19:15 reports of problems at the ticket area and the outside perimeter on the North Park Lane area.

CHAIRMAN: And you want him to comment on that?

MR COETZEE: I am asking him, Mr Commissioner, if he according to his evidence, he left gates 2 and 3 in the vicinity of 19:15 to 19:20 he left that area. He walked through the gates at Upper Ross and he walked in Bate Street which is just next to the ticket booths which is in very close proximity to the outside perimeter. I am just asking him how come he did not observe any big problem as the police are already referring to big problems in that area, why could he have walked past there without noticing anything wrong?

CHAIRMAN: We can simplify it for the witness. According to the police recordings, at the time when you walked past that particular point, is it North Park Lane?

MR COETZEE: Yes.

CHAIRMAN: There were already problems there. What is your comment on that? - - - I think counsel indicated that in respect of the time question we are working on an estimate and now once counsel put a specific time or an exact time to me, Mr Chairman, I do not understand what counsel means on that.

At the time when you walked past there, did you see any problems at all? - - - No, I did not see.

MR COETZEE: And whilst you were also walking in that area after you left gates 2 and 3, did you hear on your radio before the two message you referred to, did you hear any conversation on that radio regarding problems at the northeastern side of the stadium? - - - I did not hear that. I did hear when JOG was summoning other vehicles but I was not being summoned.

Sorry, Mr Commissioner I did not see the time.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Skosana, when we come back, try to be short otherwise you are going to be a very long time. If a yes will do, just say yes. If no will suffice, say no. If people want more information from you, it will be their task to ask further questions. We will adjourn for 15 minutes.

PROCEEDINGS ADJOURN

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster sep 5b

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/sept5b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:49 AM] What are his other functions if any? - - - Dit is basies al.

And he would have a counter part that would look after the corner in the north west, a counter part that would look after the corner in the south west and another counter part that would look after the corner in the south east? - - - Dit is korrek.

They would all have radios? - - - Ja.

So in effect his area jurisdiction in the north east would stretch halfway up the northern pavilion because his counterpart over there would be looking to the right for half that northern pavilion is that correct, the guards there? - - - Dit is korrek.

That is the stretch halfway down the eastern pavilion because his other colleague in the south would take the other half? - - - Dit is korrek.

At my request you had a look at a particular recommendation from the English report after the Hillsborough disaster and I specifically referred you to page 34 at paragraph 204. It is an exhibit EXHIBIT 2 before the court in the general bundle Mr Chairman. You did read that when we had a consultation is that correct? - - - Dit is korrek.

CHAIRMAN: What page is it?

MR ATWELL: It is page 34 at the bottom of the page, it is paragraph 204, it is under the heading "monitoring crowd density". I am going to read it first and then I am going to ask you a question about that if I may. The learned judge who held this commission in this final report quotes from a recommendation he made immediately after the Hillsborough incident in his initial report and he says at paragraph 204

"It is convenient to mention the modification I think sensible regarding an interim recommendation 5 that provided

'5. At each match there should be on the perimeter track"

and I think we have worked out before and you agreed that that refers to the field, the perimeter there refers to the perimeter of the playing field.

"At each match there should be on the perimeter track for each self contained pen or other terraced area a steward (if the club is monitoring that area) or a police official (if the police are monitoring it) whose sole duty it is to check crowd conditions in that area for possible overcrowding or distress throughout the period the area is occupied by spectators. Whoever is so appointed should be in addition to any other steward or police presence, he should also have ready access to the police officer authorised under recommendation 9 below and by radio to the control room.'"

Do you have any trouble understanding the English that is being used by the learned judge there? - - - Nee.

Do you understand what he is suggestion should be done? - - - Ja.

Is any Diligence official and specifically the person we are referring to now in the corner tasked with that particular function? - - - Ek kan nie op daardie vraag antwoord nie want ek was nog self nie betrokke daarby gewees nie, maar as jy dit kan aflei ja.

You have had training inter alia at Diligence? - - - Ja.

And I want to know from your understanding whether the Diligence officials that looked at the spectators, not those that are at the bars, those that are on the field watching spectators, whether any of them had this particular duty, and I want to repeat the duty. It is a sole duty, that is the first thing, not in addition to any other steward duties, but whose sole duty it is to check the crowd conditions in a particular demarcated area for overcrowding or distress throughout the period that that place is occupied by spectators. Do you understand that? - - - Ja.

Do you understand any of the Diligence officials that have duties on the field to have that duty? - - - Ja.

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/sept5b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:49 AM] sept 5c

     #    ! "  # $ % &  '( $ % &  )))*+!,* *-

Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/sept5c.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:51 AM] sept 5c

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/sept5c.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:51 AM] sept 5c

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/sept5c.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:51 AM] sept 5c

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/sept5c.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:51 AM] sept 5c

right round to the tunnel, going to the north-east corner. - - - Dit is korrek. Mnr Grobbelaar weet wat basies ons daar gedoen het. Die JOC het hom meegedeel oor sy radio dat ons die "bars" gesluit het.

So is that the reason you say it was not important or necessary for you to share your experiences in that bar earlier before you got to the north-east corner and assisted people there, is that the reason you say you did not have to mention this in the debriefing meeting to Mr Grobbelaar? - - - Nee. Op daardie stadium, ons was besig gewees soos ek vir u verduidelik het, ek was besig gewees met die plasing van die wagte aan die buitekant toe hulle besig al gewees het met 'n debriefing. Toe ek alreeds daar aangekom het was hulle reeds besig gewees. So wat voor dit bespreek is weet ek nie rêrig nie.

That is the first time that you now tell us this, you never said that to us before, so it is not a case of "soos ek vantevore gesê het"? - - - Ek het vir u reeds gesê ek was besig gewees met die wagte aan die buitekant om te plaas en ek het vir hulle gewag om van Heidelberg, Springs en Nigel te kom.

Mr Fourie, the record will show that this is now something different that you are telling us because you are telling us now, and I want you to believe it, that while you were posting the guards on the outside and while you were waiting for your colleagues from Heidelberg, the debriefing session has started and was in session. That is what you are now telling us? - - - Ja.

For the first time, you never mentioned that before.

VICE CHAIRMAN: I thought you had asked him why did you not attend the debriefing of Mr Stainton. His answer was I was outside and waiting for guards from the various places. So he did say that.

MR ARENDSE: Well this is another aspect of his evidence. I did ask him that about that but now we know, certainly on Mr Kruger's evidence, that there were two debriefing sessions. There was the big one that was led by Mr Stainton and there was the Dilligence. I am asking Mr Fourie about the Dilligence one. He is now saying that that debriefing had commenced and was on the go but he was not there because he was busy posting guards on the outside and waiting for people from Heidelberg and when he came into the meeting he seemed to have come in at the tail end of the meeting. Do you want to comment on that exchange? - - - Dit is korrek, terwyl hulle uitbetaal het.

CHAIRMAN: I think we are going to adjourn now and, Mr Arendse, unless you can show to us that there is something or some shattering importance tomorrow, we are no longer going to listen to evidence about this debriefing situation because you have been asking this witness since 15:25 about this debriefing and I think, unless tomorrow you can just tell us the huge relevance of this debriefing thing, I am certainly not going to allow questions on this debriefing tomorrow.

MR ARENDSE: With respect, Chairperson, the issue of the debriefing was raised by me and was never mentioned by Mr Fourie at all in his evidence.

CHAIRMAN: That may be so but I am saying that unless you can point out to something of shattering importance tomorrow around this question of debriefing, we are no longer talking about debriefing tomorrow. You will have to deal with other aspects of the evidence.

MR ARENDSE: I will deal with that aspect and the focus of asking now we know that the debriefing took place. It is also to demonstrate .. (intervenes)

CHAIRMAN: No, no, you demonstrate tomorrow. We will adjourn until 10:00.

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/sept6a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:52 AM] sept 6a

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- Op daardie stadium was die meeste van die Diligence se mense wat op die veld was wat diens gedoen het, deur mnr Grobbelaar aangesê om op te beweeg na my toe om aan te vat.

Were you (inaudible) that is referred to as a human chain by which people were passed down? If a person come up, collect the person and take him onto the field? - - - Dit is korrek.

Which one? Like a human chain? - - - Human chain.

I have heard what you have said that you some of the spectators blamed the security for not doing their work, from what you observed there at your bar, were people in fact doing their job or were they not performing their duties? - - - Volgens my observasie het hulle hulle werk gedoen.

Now since this incident there has been some changes with regard to the Diligence application at the stadium, at the Ellis Park Stadium. Is that correct? - - - Dit is korrek.

Can you explain to the commission how things have changed with regard to the deployment of the Diligence personnel inside the stadium? - - - Wat ons basies gedoen het, ons het ekstra mense wat bo basies by die privaat suite, regoor elke ingang wat na die stadion toe lei, het 'n vlaggie in sy hand en as daar enigiets gebeur, dan steek die man net sy vlag in die lug in op en die manne op die veld sal dadelik dit agterkom daar is 'n probleem.

Is there a specific reason why the Diligence or some of the members are now placed higher up in the stadium at the entrances basically on the different tiers? - - - Omrede hy 'n beter uitsig het van daar af.

Now at a previous game at Ellis Park where there was a night game of soccer that was played there, was there any testing of this new deployment application? - - - Dit is korrek.

And do you know if a person lifts a flag, whether it would be clearly visible for the people on the field? - - - Ons het dit vyf keer gedoen op verskillende punte en elke keer as die vlag dadelik opgetel is, het iemand dadelik hom opgemerk en hy het opgestaan.

According to your own experience and observation, is this new system of deployment a better system than it was previously? - - - Dit is korrek.

Would it more effectively pick up problems in the stadium? - - - Dit is korrek.

Thank you, Mr Commissioner.

MR SEMENYA: Mr Fourie, you earlier said there are telltale signs that you would be able to pick up or check if flagged? - - - Dit is korrek.

I just want to show you a certain portion of the video footage and solicit your informed view of what it is that you see there.

(VIDEO IS SHOWN)

Can you go back a bit? Just stop it there. Do you see that section? - - - Ja.

Alright show that.

CHAIRMAN: Before you go, that particular person there, did you observe what he is doing? - - - Dit is korrek.

And would that be or not be with what is compatible with somebody who is affected by teargas or not in your view? - - - Dit is korrek.

What is correct? - - - Dat hy sy lugweg beskerm vir gas, enige gas wat daar moet ingaan.

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/sept6a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:52 AM] sept 6 b

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/sept6b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:53 AM] sept 6 b

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/sept6b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:53 AM] sept 6 b

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/sept6b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:53 AM] sept 6 b

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/sept6b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:53 AM] sept 6 b

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/sept6b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:53 AM] sept 6 b

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/sept6b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:53 AM] sept 6 b

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/sept6b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:53 AM] sept 6 b

Johannesburg leading to the ground surely the problem could have been averted or could have been dealt with more effectively? - - - No I do not agree with that, our plan was around the stadium. If you look at our plan it is around that stadium, not the routes out of the stadium.

But Mr Mbuli common sense tells you that before you can come around or into or to the stadium you must first come from the outside to get to the stadium isn't it? - - - Yes that is correct but how many routes are leading to the stadium, how much manpower do you need?

Well you tell us how many roads lead to Ellis Park? - - - I cannot even count it, I cannot even count it. Our plan revolved around the stadium. Closer to the stadium where we anticipate problems because people when they come into the stadium they come from different directions.

But someone with 18 years experience you must surely by now have identified the main routes to the stadium? Yes there may be 15, 20, 10 whatever ways to get to Ellis Park but you must surely know by now which are the main ones? - - - Yes that is correct, the main ones is Sivewright and Siemens that is where we planned.

Is it not possible or let us look at trying to avoid this kind of thing in the future, why could traffic not be diverts, why could roads not be closed off to avoid this kind of congestion prior to taking place at this stage? - - - As I have said in my evidence before, if you look at Siemens ... (intervenes).

Won't you look at the map. - - - As I have said it before if you look at Siemens and you look at Sivewright, people have got the tendency of taking this road Harrow Road. You come from the M2 highway, you go Siemens and then you leave for the north. It is a link between the south and the north, so you cannot close the freeway there and close the roads there and then inconvenience other people that are not even coming into the stadium.

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/sept6b.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:53 AM] sept 6c

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CHAIRMAN: Well at 20:20 when he turned and looked and saw that the gate was closed and then he said he saw that there was a long line of vehicles there?

MR LOUW: Yes, and my next question is whether they were VIP vehicles or normal vehicles?

CHAIRMAN: How could they differ, if you look at, how do you distinguish between a VIP vehicle and an ordinary vehicle?

MR LOUW: On his own version the VIP vehicles could not get in, so I presume that he knows and also there are his personnel checking the VIP tickets, the access tickets.

CHAIRMAN: I suppose he is saying that because he was looking at the supposed VIP, I can only imagine so, but that is as best we can put it.

MR LOUW: He was of the opinion that there were many VIP vehicles because that was what the question was about. I want to know how he knows that. I would suggest to the witness that it is .. (intervenes)

CHAIRMAN: Do your clients deny the fact or is your instructions that no VIP vehicles at the time the witness says he saw those lanes full of vehicles?

MR LOUW: No, there were just a few but certainly not many any more.

CHAIRMAN: Now these are your clients at the gate who says so?

MR LOUW: Yes, that is what my clients indicated to me.

CHAIRMAN; Well you can continue your questions on Monday.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/sept10a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:54 AM] sep 10a

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plans and we also indicated what their arrangements are for that and from there we receive, it is a line function, because they say what their actions are going to be and how many people there are going to be and that is the way they operate.

Were you satisfied that those plans were adequate if implemented properly? - - - Yes, if you look at what the persons proposed there as well as we are staff function and not a line function. So I cannot actually comment on say there is a plan to be deployed there. All I know it is the role players involved with the management to actually put the total plan there and if they propose their actions during that night, how many people, how many parachuters, how many first aiders, that is what they propose and that is what we accept.

I just want to clear up what your exact function or functions are because it seems to me that in order to prevent a disaster from happening that you should play a coordinating function. - - - That is right.

And not purely a line function. - - - Ja, that is a staff function.

Sorry. - - - That is staff function and not line function.

Now when you do that, you have got to satisfy yourself surely that the plan submitted by the various role players are adequate to at least to prevent a disaster from happening. - - - That is why we looked at the plans. We evaluate the plans and those are the plans we have in our possession and at that stage we did not have any problems with the plans.

So you would for example have been satisfied that the number of personnel deployed by the police or by any of the security companies or the PSL Security, that those numbers are adequate? - - - I would not say that because that is a line function. It is not for me to decide how many personnel the police or whoever should be having. If you look at security either at the outer perimeters there, we have security around that area. If we look at personnel, if you enter the stadium where Wolf Security are checking tickets and checking what is going in and then you have security inside as well and that is what my concern is. Are those role players in place? If they are in place that is what I am looking at.

I just want to clear that up because I made a note here that you said earlier that you play a monitoring role. - - - Not monitoring to see what the line function of other departments is. I cannot comment on police or whatever - how many people they should have in this instance on duty or the traffic people; whether they have other duties, I cannot say well I think you should have 2 000 people on duty. it is not for me to say. Those people have got line functions and their responsibilities according to them.

I have difficulty in understanding that because for example you were aware that this game classified as a category A event. - - - That is right.

That there will be a full house. You were aware of that. T hat was said to you in the meeting. - - - Ja.

You prepared on that basis. You prepared yourself on the basis that the ground was going to be .. (intervenes) - - - To be full house. That is right.

Now I have difficulty in understanding that you cannot comment at least on the numbers to be used by any of the role players say for example the police. If they say look, we are only going to have ten policemen and you know you are looking at a crowd of 60 000, surely that is the kind of observation you should be making and commenting on. - - - Well, ten is a bit out of the way.

Yes. - - - If they say there are 200 or 300 or 500 people on duty or 1 000 people, it is according to their plan. I cannot comment on that.

Now on the night you were sitting in the spotter's room or the second JOC that it is also referred to. How could you possibly effectively monitor, manage or coordinate what was going on that night if you were not in contact with the other role players? - - - That is why my suggestion was that at the end we should have one centralised control centre with all the role players, senior personnel sitting there. That is the only way you can manage it. If you have separate rooms, people are not knowing what is going on, nobody can manage it.

So that was a failing that night? - - - That is a failing and that is a management problem and it is not a disaster management problem. It is the management of the private .. it is a private event. It is a private ground for instance. It is their responsibility.

But your concern as I understand it, your primary concern is for the safety of the public. - - - The safety of the public.

And although it is a private event, it is members of the public who went to see the game. - - - That is why I requested to have one central JOC even before the event.

Because what is also difficult to try and comprehend even is how you could not be in touch, even if you were sitting in the second JOC, how you could not be in touch with the various role players on a two-way radio for example because you would have heard reports. - - - Ja.

From the various securities about there being chaos and then total chaos and superintendent Mbuli would have been telephoning in to say to his representative in the JOC that traffic has come to a standstill, there is a large crowd that is forming on front of the gate. - - - That is true. The problem is all these role players work on different frequencies. Some is USF, some is normal low band radios. In that instance I would have had to have four radios in front of me. The same with the police. They are working on a USF frequency. Emergency So to have all those role players available there, that is the actual if you look at the control in your command centre, I would say that is exactly what we are talking about. That is my suggestion for command and control you need all the communications and the senior personnel in one room with the display on the wall where everybody can see what is going on. If those are not available in the second JOC, they were not there. So that is the problem we had that night and I foresee that and that is why I requested that we have one centralised JOC.

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MR BARLOW: Thank you I do not have any further questions.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

MR SEMENYA: Mr Erasmus can I ask you this, there seems to be a body of opinion that says the north east corner was so congested that people could not make meaningful observations, do you follow, that ... (intervenes). - - - It was congested to?

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Yes, if you were all together you could have said listen here, let us go back? - - - No, we were running, we were following each other, like we did not want to lose each other.

Yes, but you could have then contacted Matlala and say "Matlala, why don't we go back, this is a bad day"? - - - I never thought about that.

You never thought about that but it is something that you could have done? - - - Given the situation at the time, given the large type of crowd, there was no time you know to exercise your mind properly.

Well I have already made the point that whilst you were running around trying to enter into the stadium, then you could have said "listen, we don't have to go in there, let's go home". - - - There was no time for that.

I do not appreciate what you are saying that there was no time because you were running around trying to find an unhindered place to get into the stadium and instead of running around and finding a place to get, you decided to get in to the stadium even though you did not have tickets? - - - If I tried to do that I believe I would not be here to answer your questions.

Anyway, now you make some views about how you do not think the game should have continued. Now I am not going to go over what soccer .. (indistinct) have said in relation to that, I just want to find out from you whether you saw Mr Dipela on that day? Mr Dipela, Andrew Dipela? - - - No, I did not see him, I saw Phako.

You saw Phako, every seems to have seen Phako. - - - Yes.

Now you would not know that Mr Dipela was the match co-ordinator that day? - - - No, I do not know.

And you would not know that he was seated somewhere there? - - - No.

And you would not know that he only got to know about what was taking place there after the match had started and after his attention was drawn by somebody who ran across to him and he had to send somebody back to go and investigate, then he realised that there was a tragedy there. - - - Yes, I saw some guys .. if it was not Dipela who went to that corner and come back and I think there was some direction as the game was ultimately stopped.

And you say you never saw Dipela anywhere in that area? - - - No, no, I did not see him.

Well because then you will then know that it was only after the tragedy had happened that Dipela got to know about what is happening and it was only thereafter that he and the CO of soccer decided that the game must be stopped. - - - I cannot deny that.

And now that you know is it a sort of fair statement to say you honestly believed that the game should have been stopped immediately to prevent a further stampede? - - - Yes, when I observed that I told myself if somebody from wherever can just stop this game, at least the situation could be safe at that particular corner.

So this is a statement rather which is uninformed. Now that you know the facts you will possibly not give that sort of statement again? - - - But it was stopped a little bit later.

Now you say in your statement that the securities closed the gates instead of opening them for the crowd and that caused more deaths? - - - Yes, like if the way you see the gates on that photograph 41, if they just opened that small gate, I mean the people will quickly rush in and it could have prevented sort of pillage, you know.

Once again, when you talk about gates, you mean that gates that lead into the .. (intervenes) - - - The one I testified about .. (intervenes)

The one in photograph 41. - - - Yes.

Your evidence is that if those gates had been closed there would have .. (intervenes) - - - Then the people would spill into the ground and could have sort of prevented, you know, pressing against that particular iron railings.

But when were those gates opened? - - - I cannot tell but they were ultimately opened because you could see people moving around from that other side of the stadium just opposite to where I was sitting, looking for a place to sit down. That was mostly after the game was stopped.

You see, I am asking because the evidence suggests, and I am sure this is the evidence, suggests that the crowd stampede as you call it, which is really a crush that took place there, took place between 19:45 and possibly just after 20:00 or 20:00? - - - I would not know that.

If that was the evidence that was accepted by the Commission, the fact that those gates were open at the time that you saw it being opened, would then not be held by you to be the reason for a further stampede because you say "I honestly believe that the game should have been stopped" and you say security closed the gates instead of opening them for the crowd and that caused more deaths. - - - You see, there were some securities standing at this other side of the stadium but on this gate and there were people pressing sort of against that railings. If at the time they opened that gate, people would come onto the field itself and then they could have been some .. (intervenes)

What I am suggesting to you, when you saw those gates being opened, the tragedy had already occurred according to evidence that is available. It had occurred almost five minutes earlier. I see you nod, do you agree? - - - Yes, I agree.

CHAIRMAN: We will adjourn until tomorrow at 10:00.

COURT ADJOURNS:y

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/sept11a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:57 AM] sep 11a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/sept11a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:57 AM] sep 11a

MR SEMENYA: Up to 20:30?

MR COETZEE: Well, up to the stage where the peopled stopped coming in. The time .. (intervenes)

MR SEMENYA: That does not help me. I do not know. Up to 20:30 your case is that there were still security stopping people and checking tickets?

MR COETZEE: No, at 20:30 already as I understand the evidence people were assisting with injured people.

MR SEMENYA: That is my point. So if the witness did not see security there, I do not see it as a critical complaint against the security officers that time. There was already a crisis.

MR COETZEE: Mr Commissioner, the reason why .. (intervenes)

MR SEMENYA: I am just asking whether it is your case that by 20:30 your contention is that you were still doing pre-game work as security.

MR COETZEE: Not necessarily pre-game but there was still security guards assisting there with the crowds.

CHAIRMAN: That is fine.

MR COETZEE: Thank you, Mr Commissioner. I have got no further questions.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Louw?

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Was somebody still putting questions to him, I cannot recall? Oh Mr Ntsebeza. How far were you from finishing or you cannot say?

MR NTSEBEZA: I cannot say, my lord.

CHAIRMAN: Will you remember where you were?

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes, I do. I cannot say at this point.

CHAIRMAN: You cannot say. Alright, maybe let us see if we cannot stop this until tomorrow morning but there is something which I think I want to mention and Mr Wepener came to see us in chambers so that he could be excused to go and attend a memorial service in respect of the late husband to one of my colleagues, Jack Snyders, lost her husband. I am afraid as the Judge President I will have to go and attend the memorial service as well and for that reason I think we will adjourn. We did indicate to Mr Wepener that we would probably stop at 11:30 until 14:00 but on second thought we considered that perhaps we should stop at 11:15, the memorial service is at 12:00 and then start at 13:30 to try and make up to the extent that we can the lost time. So would that cause problems to anybody to stop at 11:15 and then start at 12:30 tomorrow?

MR ATTWELL: It should not provide any problems for us, Mr Chairman, and I understand Mr Mamabolo could be here at 10:00 at the latest, possibly even earlier. I think he will probably be travelling with my colleague, he can be here earlier but I know this court is used before then.

CHAIRMAN: So I think then in that case we should adjourn now. I do not think we can go on anyway with Mr Ntsebeza cross-examining this witness. I do not think we can go very far, I think we will adjourn until 10:00 tomorrow. Mr Mamabolo, I would like you to tell yourself that tomorrow you will be coming at 10:00 to answer questions and I do not think you were fair to yourself yesterday when you were subjected to cross-examination by Mr Ntsebeza, I think you allowed yourself to get worked up unnecessarily and as a result you were not even able to follow some of the questions very well or express yourself properly because you were simply emotional. I think you should, tomorrow when we start again you should try to be relaxed and take questions as they come, in the calm manner as a trained lawyer like yourself should do because we would like to benefit from your evidence. Thank you very much.

MR NTSEBEZA: Mr Chairman, I can promise Mr Mamabolo I will be gentle with him.

CHAIRMAN: Yes. The court adjourns.

COURT ADJOURNS.

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CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR COETZEE: Sir, when you entered through the .. in the vicinity of gate 4, you have already testified that there was a last number of people there. I just want to ask you, is it possible that there might have been security personnel in the area which you could not see due to the large amount of people that surrounded you? - - - I did not see any security except for that one but I will not deny that if they could have been part of the crowd.

And my instructions are and there is also evidence in front of the commission is that at 19:15 that evening gates 2 and 3 were already closed, that that gates were closed at that area. Now the time that you passed there, are you sure about that time or is that an estimation? - - - The time I have just referred to between 19:35 and 20:00?

Yes, could it have been earlier? Could it have been 19:15 or before? - - - I am sure about the time. The time I cannot make a mistake. I am sure about the time.

And were there any security officials at that gates that you saw? - - - No, I just entered into the pitch unhindered.

But you entered from gate 4 in the inner passage up to the area of gates 2 and 3. Is that correct? - - - Ja.

And did you get to the upper floor to where the suites are or were the suites on the same level as the gates? - - - Like your colleague has already put it, the seats are in front of the suites. It is also reserved here. We just entered somewhere here and then we moved to that particular place. Then we were ordered back and then we moved straight back to where we were seated just in line with Kaizer Chiefs goalkeeper.

Sir, the time when you got to that suites, had the game already started or not? - - - No, no, I was inside the stadium before. When the game kicked off I was already seated.

And this crowd that basically forced you into the stadium of which you were a part, we have heard the evidence of Mr Mbuli who said that even from the traffic side, even if he had twice the number of people he would not have been able to control the people in his area. That is not now where you were. But was that a controllable crowd which you saw there? If you stood unarmed in front of that crowd, would they have stopped and listen to you? - - - No, I would say it was a type of unruly crowd.

Thank you, Mr Commissioner. I have got no further questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FARBER: No questions.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Ledwaba?

MR LEDWABA: Just one aspect, Mr Chairman.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LEDWABA: When you say gates 2 and 3, you actually do not mean the gates themselves but the small openings that lead you to the seating area of the stadium? - - - I do not understand, Mr Ledwaba.

You entered at gate 4. - - - Ja.

And you mentioned gate 2 and 3. You did not see a similar gate at 2 and 3 like 4 but do you mean the openings that lead you to the sitting place in the stadium? - - - Ja, I referred to the opening.

I have nothing further.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Thank you. You are excused. - - - Thanks, M'Lord, I am sorry again about yesterday.

Accepted. We will now adjourn until 13:30.

MR LEDWABA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

PROCEEDINGS ADJOURN

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/sept13a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:59 AM] sep 13a

but also came through the northern end, also was in a pushing situation, stood aside and simply decided to go home. I take it that even at the point where you left gate 4, that was an option which was open to you. - - - It was an option that I considered as I have said earlier in my evidence.

Thank you, Mr Commissioner.

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/sept13a.htm[2009/08/06 08:42:59 AM] sep 13b

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

(J Hallows - p2013)

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/sept13b.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:00 AM] sep 13b

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/sept13b.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:00 AM] sep 13b

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/sept13b.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:00 AM] sep 13b

various other parties have already received this and indicated to me outside the confines of this court proceedings that they have no objections to the document as it now reads. I beg leave to hand that in and may it be admitted as EXHIBIT GENERAL 4 and if that is so allowed then at this juncture may I ask that the proceedings stand adjourned until Monday 22 October 2001. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: Yes. By the way when did we conduct this inspection, 20th August?

MR ATWELL: It was the first day of the resumption of the proceedings after the initial break.

CHAIRMAN: The inspection in loco report as read into the record with the amendment is declared to be an accurate report of the inspection carried on 20 August 2001 at Ellis Park Stadium.

MR ATWELL: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: It is then handed in and accepted as EXHIBIT GENERAL 4.

MR ATWELL: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: We will then adjourn until 22 October 2001, 10:00. Thank you very much.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/sept13b.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:00 AM] oct 22a

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"   / 2 3 3 3  * file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct22a.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:00 AM] oct 22a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct22a.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:00 AM] oct 22a

. 0 1,/2 3 3 3 =*

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct22a.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:00 AM] oct 22a

C@B /8 0*

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct22a.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:00 AM] oct 22a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct22a.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:00 AM] oct 22a

MR ARENDS: Well, then please help me understand why did Mr Atwell ask the question in the first place if it is not relevant?

CHAIRMAN: Do you have any further questions or you do not have further questions?

MR ARENDS: Well, I have got to cover my clients' backs. I am just asking ... (intervenes)

CHAIRMAN: Mr Arends ... (intervenes)

MR ARENDS: Nothing turns on it but with due respect, but I will leave it there.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Arends, do you have any further questions or do you not?

MR ARENDS: No, I do not have any further questions, thank you.

CHAIRMAN: Then sit down.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS

CHAIRMAN: Mr Coetzee?

EXAMINATION BY MR COETZEE: As the Commission pleases. For Diligence and Wolf. Commissioner, whilst you were at the north corner and you pressed, or in the vicinity of the gate where the group was pressed, could you see what was the situation on the inner perimeter between the fence and the stadium itself? - - - Ja, there were people moving towards the entrance to the main gate, to the stadium, sorry.

To the stadium. At that stage would you describe the situation in the inner perimeter as being under control? It was a normal busy entrance into the stadium like any other game? - - - Ja, there was a movement inside though not as big as the one outside the perimeter.

It was not mayhem, it was not a riot inside? - - - No, no, not at that point, no, no.

Sir, from your experience in the police and from your own position, a riotous crowd which would break through the fences who is to control them, Sir? - - - My experience in the police as I have said, I am with the Intelligence, I am not, I have not trained as a riot control policeman.

Did you feel that your life was endangered there at the gates? Is that why you left there? - - - I felt that I am in danger.

Sir, with reference to the incidents which you have described where you were sprayed with teargas, just to make sure I understand your evidence correctly, whilst you were talking to some of the officials from Wolf Security you were still debating with them whether they should allow the PSL security guards into the stadium, that was when this incident took place? - - - Ja.

So it was not the Wolf Security who actually attacked you, it was from the side somebody else Mr Kruger that came ... (intervenes) - - - Ja, I was still talking to them. They had not responded or anything at that moment when the incident happened.

Thank you Mr Commissioner, I have got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct22b_1.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:01 AM] oct 22b

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct22b_1.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:01 AM] oct 22b

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct22b_1.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:01 AM] oct 22b

MR ANTROBUS: Yes. Well it is always a difficulty Mr Commissioner with cross-examination, but that is the nature of cross-examination.

CHAIRMAN: Well the nature of cross-examination is not to put a meaningless concept to which if confirmed you would attribute the responsibility to explain it on a witness.

MR ANTROBUS: Well I am offering the opportunity to explain now. What we have is that it was a public order situation what was put to you which required public order policing and your answer was yes. Do you accept that now? - - - Now what I accept yes that some control eh, eh, was supposed to have been resumed because there was a situation developing at that, at that specific area.

And when you say that specific area, were you actually being pushed against the fence, or was it pushed against the gate which was closed? - - - No there was a, a gate.

A double gate? - - - Ja.

Was there a Njala parked at that gate or nearby that gate? - - - No-no I did not see a Njala at that gate.

Did you see whether there had been razor wire deployed inside the perimeter fence? - - - Eh, no I cannot recall that.

Cannot recall that. - - - Ja, no.

What you seem to be suggesting now is that this was a developing situation and what was developing was an out of control situation, out of control crowd situation, do you accept that? That was what your concern was. - - - Ja, no I do, I do accept.

part 2

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

1 

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct22b_2.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:01 AM] oct 22 b

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct22b_2.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:01 AM] oct 22 b

Well your statement says that your job was to relay communications between your team and the overall controller, Urban Law. There is no person in-between that you reported to. - - - I said I then give the orders to my group or the one who is leading the group.

Where did you learn to use a radio? - - - I was in the force.

Tell me, your evidence was that you go to Ellis Park even much earlier because of your association with Mr Coetzee, is that right? - - - Yes.

Would it be correct to say that Mr Coetzee is overall in charge of security at Ellis Park during rugby and football matches? - - - Yes possibly, I do not know.

What is your impression? - - - I do not have any idea what was his position then.

We also now hear that you were in the army, "weermag." - - - That is correct.

Did you learn to use teargas in the army? - - - No.

Thank you.

CHAIRMAN: Are you going to want to put questions Mr Antrobus?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ANTROBUS: On 11 April, on the evening of 11 April, who were you employed by when you were doing duty? - - - Viper Protection Services.

I have no further questions.

CHAIRMAN: As a radio man, not a bouncer. - - - That is correct.

Mr Louw we will ask questions arising at 14:00. We will now adjourn until 14:00.

MR LOUW: I will even finish before 13:00 Mr Commissioner.

CHAIRMAN: Sorry, just a minute, what did you say, sorry?

MR LOUW: I will even finish before 13:00. I see there are two minutes left.

CHAIRMAN: Alright.

FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR LOUW: Mr Kruger if we could just clear this up for the benefit of the commission. As I understand it as the rugby matches you would act as a bouncer team member. - - - That is correct.

But at the soccer matches you are a radio man and you would fall under the team leader. - - - That is correct.

The team leader on that particular evening was, on 11 April, can you recall? - - - Ntuli.

Are you aware that bouncer teams are not a registerable category in terms of the Security Officers Board Act? - - - No.

We have no further questions.

CHAIRMAN: Why are you a bouncer for rugby and not for soccer? Is there any particular reason? No-no I am saying why do you bounce for rugby. - - - I do enjoy rugby very much and I never went there to watch any soccer.

No I am asking why you bounce for rugby and not for soccer. - - - Those are the orders that are given to me by my employer.

Mr Kruger, thank you, you are excused.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct22b_2.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:01 AM] oct 22c

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct22c.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:02 AM] oct 22c

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct22c.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:02 AM] oct 22c

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And it will not facilitate treatment at all, it in fact creates an acid. - - - Yes.

We have no further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you, you are excused.

MR ATTWELL: Mr Chairman, I regret to advise that at this stage I have no further witnesses for today. One unfortunately let us down but will be available first thing tomorrow.

MR ANTROBUS: Sorry Mr Chairman, we have one or two aspects which we wish to clarify with this witness.

CHAIRMAN: Which witness?

MR ANTROBUS: The witness which has just been excused.

CHAIRMAN: Can you call Prof Scholtz back please?

HENDRIK JOHANNES SCHOLTZ [Recalled]

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ANTROBUS: Thank you Mr Chairman. Prof Scholtz, just two aspects. The first is merely a question of clarification. Am I correct that you testified that the injuries that you saw both on deceased people and people who were merely injured, you said it was inconsistent with them having fallen from a height, as I understood it. - - - That is correct.

Would that still be the case if they had fallen and the falling would be several stories but fallen onto other people as opposed to falling onto the concrete floor or onto the stands? Would people have necessarily sustained injuries that you would have observed? Are you able to comment on that? - - - I have considered this specific aspect quite at length. The only severe injuries that we see in all of these cases were or let us put it this way, the severest injuries that we saw in all of these cases, were fractures of the ribs. The question therefore arises would there be sufficient cushioning of the fall to prevent the other usual injuries that one sees and this is what concerned me, is that none of the cases had any significant head injuries. None of the cases had any significant long bone injuries such as fractures for instance and certainly the only person with significant fractures was one of the people that actually walked away to hospital. None of the cases had any pelvic fractures which are the common fracture that we find in people who fall from a height. The converse question then arises, well if a person fell from a height on top of somebody else then those people must show severe injuries and once again the only injury that we found was chest injuries that were consistent with what we expect to find in traumatic asphyxia and not what we would expect to find from a fall from a height.

That was the way I understood your evidence. - - - Yes.

It seems to me from the way you have explained it now in greater detail that you had some difficulty in forming a conclusion in this respect and is it fair to say that to some extent one is speculating here. One does not know exactly what height you are falling from; you do not know whether you are falling onto an individual and half onto a chair of the stadium or half onto the floor or onto what maybe a carpet of bodies in effect. That is the difficulty. Is it for that kind of reason that you have some difficulty in making this assessment or not? - - - Absolutely and therefore it remains an opinion. I cannot state it as a fact that anybody fell - I cannot state as a fact that somebody did not fall from a height, if I am making myself clear.

Yes. Can I move on to the second aspect and that was that it was suggested to you that there may be a problem with the way that people were carried, that injuries may have been exacerbated or perhaps even caused and your answer as I understood it referred to the ABC of getting people back to consciousness, if possible. How would you apply that ABC approach to dealing with a critically injured person in circumstances where there is, as is the evidence before this commission, a crowd which is fundamentally unsympathetic to the plight of these people and there is no space there. Are you able to do the ABC or do you need as a first course of action to get that person to a place where you can perform ABC? - - - Absolutely, that is the principal in any of such, what we refer to as mass disasters, is to get the people to a safe area where you can treat them adequately. That is the first priority.

And if that requires carrying somebody in what may be described as "wrong way" then you have to do that in order to get to the ABC, is that not so? - - - Well, otherwise the person is going to die there from lack of treatment. If a person is lying in a place where you cannot treat them, it is useless to not move them.

And wait for a stretcher in other words. - - - Exactly.

Alright, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: I will not recall the witness again. So I can now finally let him go. Thank you Professor. - - - Thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS

MR ATTWELL: Mr Chairman as I said I regret that we are unable to proceed further today and I hope tomorrow to using the time more productively and we will make arrangements to try and ensure that. At th is stage then may I ask that the matter stand down until tomorrow at the customary commencement time of 10:00 and I know that at least one of my colleagues from the Cape and possible myself would like to see you in chambers just about some administrative arrangements that we may need to make before the further session.

CHAIRMAN: We will adjourn until tomorrow at 10:00.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS

====0<<<<

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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VOLUME 27

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@)  /. / 1  7 11# ,#. 9 !.  ,/ 7 / 9#!* 6 /  !! 7 0  11#  /! 1,# 9#!  ,#. 0 / ,,..  11#  9/ / 7 . / !,. ) 7 9#!2 3 3 3 A )! !# 1  . 8 .77  ! ! /*

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! !/  ## #  ,/#.2 3 3 3 = !0 ! E . +*

A 0 #)0! ,,10 / 1,# . 7 !  / ! / 0 / ..2  / ).! ! -  0 #7  7 / 0 /  F C0!!2 3 3 3 ! . . ! ) . !1#88 ! ! 8*

.  / #! #8!  /! !! 7 / !1,7, ;1 / 0 11# !  9  . ,, )/ 0 1,# # 1!2 3 3 3 A ! !# ! ##! 8 /  . ".378! #! )  9!!!## 98 )  E # .. )8* ! . ! 98 ) /..E!*

6/  ,,!2 3 3 3 @ ,,!*

6! /   / = /  / 7 9#, . #, 77,#!  / 8 1 1!  / =2 3 3 3 A )!*

C) 0 ,#. 0 / ,,..  9#, . #, 2 3 3 3 A 8 8#8  ) !#    1! /*

.  0 ) / )!  !.  / . .  / ) 9/. 0 / ) ) / )  9 !.2 3 3 3 A )! ) 1 !1#88  . 8  !#  1! ).*

A 0 8) 0/ 9 0 ,# / 9#, . #, .. .  ,  / = /  / 9 ) . )0 9,! 7 .; ,,.2 3 3 3 1 E !. / . E #.  19 . #!  ! >" * C0 /  1#! !   9#0  /0 /  .  #1*

6! 0 ;! . 90 /  8 1  ! /   77,# ,1,02 3 3 3 @*

6#. 0 / /. / 7  /. 9 ..!!.  09.0 /2 3 3 3 8 ! ) . >" )! 9 !# 1 .. !.*

A. 0 .!. / / )! /  8 1  1!  ! = ,1,02 3 3 3 8 /   . ! . ).    ) /0 /  8!9# > !#!*

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct24a_1.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:03 AM] oct 24a

C) 0 ! 7 !,,  ## )#. 0 !0 / 0 / ,.  /! 1,# ,1,0   ##! 82 3 3 3 8 # 1#! ! *

! / !, / 0  1  1#2 3 3 3 A ! 88*

6 /0  / !  ) /0 .0 ! 1 7  1# , 0 ,##2 6 / /  / !2 3 3 3 A   !88).!0. ) )! 1 4 = 8 # . )!  . +  . )! E  ).!0.*

/ / ) /  8 1 0 7 1 7 / / ) /0 .0 !2 3 3 3 !# 8 #*

7 /  1#E!  /. 0 )!!. 0 ). ,.! )/# 0 ) !  / = !  1! 7 "2 3 3 3 @*

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6/# 0 !.  / ,1,0  )/,/ 0 .. ) / ,.! )/# 0 )  ., )/ / )! 9# !. / !. / ! / 0 )#.  ,!!#0 ! 9  ) 7 9,! 7 0 1!  / =2 3 3 3  .   .).!0. 1 4 = / 8 / . . ## 9 )! . . !8 9 9/ 8  . 19 . #! )# 1  /  99*

. )! / ! ,.2 3 3 3 =*

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 /* / !/ ! #! .# )/ A# ,E! . "##E! .#!* 6/ .. 0   7 0/   / 9 )/ )!   )/ A# ,  "##2 3 3 3 8 / #.   ! /  /## .E!  /## / 8 ) 8# /..E!  8 )! 1 .. !.  0.! . ).!0. 9 9!  0  /..*

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. 0 ) 10  / ##! 8 ,/#2 3 3 3 A ! 88*

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 /* 6 ) 8) 9!#0 0 /. ## 0 ) !! ! . ! 0 1,# ,/# . 0 . #0 / @  " 11# ,  . 9 !18   / ,/#2 3 3 3 A ! 88*

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6/ ! / C. 7 F!9# #, 2 3 3 3 A ! 88 !8 19 . #!*

6 )## , 9,8 #  / 77! / ) .  ,, /! 11# . / !,,!! 7 /! 77!* @) / ! !##  / 1!  / ) 9/. 0* 6/ ,#. 0 / 9 !.  !18 90 / 1!2 3 3 3  #! ! . )! !# )!* C## 98 /## . )#8  ) . 19# !   ) )0.  ).  . ! #*

" / )!  ,/ ,##  /  !  . 7 ! 7 / 2 3 3 3 @  1 .. !. *

@) ) 8) / / ": 1!  ! 0 8) / )! #!  .,  / * A. / /  .2 3 3 3 8 /  .  / !   . 8 . !0 8# )! /*

A. 0  ! / #8  / .  , 0 ,##!2 3 3 3 @ 0.! !0 ). /.  . >"  *

@)  )/  .. 0 1 7 .0   1# ! "2 3 3 3  &B . ..  .*

. )/ ! / 7!  / 0 #7 / = 7 7!    &B2 3 3 3 A !  0 #8   ! 8 /  0 /#! .1 / . *

A. 0  #  # # /  /2 3 3 3 = +*

A / 2 3 3 3 >.. . ).!0.*

6 /! +! .0 ,##! 0 ) 8 2 6 0 )0 7 # !1##!  0/ #8 /2 3 3 3 @ . )!  8 0.18  ! .

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct24a_1.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:03 AM] oct 24a

9.8!  9 . >" # ! *

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6#. 0 ## / !! /) 7  7 /) # 0 !) / ": 1!   / = / 1,# .02 3 3 3    5B /   !# 90 . >"* 8 8  !1!78 ! 1 ) !. / /0 . >" # * 8 ) 8 / / 9)! 8  E   . !.  8 8 8 9! ) 8 8  ! 1 ) !. !1!78 / /0 . >" # *

6! / ##0  ., /  /  ,E 0 ,2 #. / / 9  7 # !1##! . 0 ..  ,2 3 3 3 C0 /  ## # . >" # . . ).!0. 9  /*

C .. #2 3 3 3  ! /0  8 0.+!  8 /    0 ! / ! 8 .    8 / *

@) / .  5B* < !0 / #7 !  97 / * A 0 8) )/0 / #7 / = 97 / 2 3 3 3 @ 8 /  E . *

C ..  ## 09.0 / / / !  9,! / ! 9 ,##. )0 7 0/ 2 3 3 3 C0 / .   0 !  8 )  7 /0 .   . .!  . / *

6/ )! / ! 1!  1!  ,/  7 / = / 1,# .02 3 3 3 8 # . 1!  9/  . = )!  -*

6! / #! / 1! ! 0 .!.  7 ## / / ! )/ 0 / . /! 1,# .0  / =2 3 3 3 A ! 88*

@) )/0 . 0 !0 / . / !    7 / 11#  / =2 3 3 3 A . /8 8 . ! ! .  - 91# ) !# . >"  !1!78 1 . .   1# /  "   - . >" 9 8  /  " ..#8 !# .  -  9/ !  . >"*

 )/ !  )! /! 1,# ! 90  " .  -2 C. /  !. )!  97 / 2 3 3 3 A )!  . 7!81*

6!  !#  ! / /2 3 3 3 @*

. )! / 0 1,# ! 7 /  1/!!  7  "  1/!! )/ )!  ,# 7 / = )! / !/ 0 (1,.  / 7 / 2 3 3 3 6 8 )  ! .  " )! !#. )!* 8 )  ) )! . . .   /0 / !1!78 #. .  -  9/ !  . >"*

< .  8) )/ 9 / /  / = /  /2 3 3 3 @ 8 /  . *

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C@B 6/ 9 /2 6/ 9 /2 =! 1 )/ 0 / !.2 3 3 3 C0 / . >" 9 8  /0 /  7 ! 9)! ! . . !8 9 9/ !*

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A. 0  # 0 1!  !, / 9,8  / . . ! / 9,8  / 1!!  !.  0/ 2 3 3 3 @ 8 /  ! 9!. >" 9#0*

C@B =!  * /8 0*

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! " .!,9 7 / !! /) 0 .!. 0 #  / =2 < ) ,,10  7 /! ##! 9.E! 0 7 ) !! 0   . ,, )/  #!  7 / !,0 ,1! 0  10   # 7 / 7 / !   / 0 / . / +9  #* 6/ )! 0 7, ! 0 .!.   / =2 3 3 3 0 1 78! ! ! !88#1! !! "  . . #!1#! 9 . >"*

A 0 / 0 .1. .,! 8 1)2 3 3 3 ! . 91# . ) 8 E 19#!! ! / 8 !# !    0  1!#  0 .  #8 /1# *

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct24a_1.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:03 AM] oct 24a

8 !  E 1 )8 90 /## *

@) #0 7 0 8) / !)  /! ( ;! ! 0 !0 0!* A. 0 7 / / 11# / !  / 7 ) )/ 0 / 0 1)!  8 .,!! ! 7 ! 0 8)  .. 0 ! / 8 .,!! .1.#0 .  !,!2 / 6#7   6#7 1!#  ! -  0 7 / / !,0 ,1! / !/ )! 1! /   ##! 8 1!#2 3 3 3 A ! !## 8   9!#  *

7  .!. 0 7, !  ,!!0 7 0  / !  / = )/ / 9.E! 0 ) 7 / .  7#7# / #2 3 3 3 @ 0 #  *

  F C0!!E! # 7 6#7 7  )! )/  .!.  )!2 3 3 3 8 #  F C0!!  ! 6#7 9 8 9 . 1#+ .9) *

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A 0 / 9,#!  / =2 3 3 3 @*

A 0 7 / / 1! / ,,!!  9,#!  / = )/ /0 . .0 /2 ! /  ! 7 9,#! / 0 7 / , !2 3 3 3 A# , 98  /##  808*

! / 1!  1# 2 3 3 3 A ! 88*

  / / . 97 / )/ 0 .. .0 / .. 0 7 / 11# / 0 9,#!2 3 3 3 @*

6! 0 77 . 90 0 11#  / =  0 8)#.   9! !1,7,##0 /  7 11#  / !. .!.! . .) /  )0! . / ! 7 / 2 3 3 3 ## 9 . >" ) 8 9 / / 1  7 . !.  . #. 808 !8  . 1#+* A . / ! . . !. !. # ). /  / ! )  / . ! 9  #  !88 .)*

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. /) 0 !,/ 77! ) .    ,/ )/ / 90 / 11#  / =2 < .  7) .. 02 3 3 3 ! 8 1  0!#7 !# 8 1  !! *

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AD<3C@B =!  *   +! 0  !9#!/ (,#0 )/ 0 !0 0 ..* < )#. , 7 7 0 . . )/ .. 0 . )/ / 72 3 3 3 8 /# . #  ) 8    C! 7   . 1!  " ) /. #   1!! !*

. . 0 ## 0 / = ,## ! / 7 0 / ,.  2 3 3 3 @ ! . 988 / 1 @  *

A 0 (1, /  ,0 )/ /0 ,  0 ! )##2 3 3 3 @ . ) ! ) 8 8 / ! ) / /  . .!8 .E!*

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 )/ 1 ! / ,, .2 3 3 3 A !  E 1 ) ! 9.!# E) / +0   ) / 8   . .E *

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct24a_1.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:03 AM] oct 24a

 6::B 6 )## ,#70  "*   /#1 0 . / .  )## 0 *

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 @@ <  6:: $,.%B  )#. #8 0  /  7 7 0 7 0 )#. & . ,#. 0 +! ,7 7!#0 7 / ,!! / /!  / ! / 0 .  # 7 7 , ,.! / 0 ,..  /  / 7  1#  ##! 8  / +,8* 3 3 3 / ! ,,*

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct24a_1.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:03 AM] oct 24a

7 0 7 !, )  #8  / !,. 1  7 /! .,  7 / / ! / !,8  )! / 7 / /. 0   B4 / ! !/ #8  /#7  / 1 97 / ( 0* @) ) 8) 7 / 7 /  )7# # )! /11  / 1,# /#7  / .  ! ! 7, /  !  ,. 90 0 7 0 ,.! 7 / 1.*  0 .!,9 )/0 / )#. 9 / ,!2 3 3 3  ,#. 9 1!!9# / )! )/  #7 / +,8 .  !. / #*

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct24a_1.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:03 AM] oct 24a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct24a_1.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:03 AM] oct 24a

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct24a_1.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:03 AM] oct 24a

     #    ! "  # $ % &  '( $ % &  )))*+!,* *-

Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

Ellispark Hearings, Oct 24a - part 2 1 

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct24a_2.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:03 AM] oct 24a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct24a_2.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:03 AM] oct 24a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct24a_2.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:03 AM] oct 24a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct24a_2.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:03 AM] oct 24a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct24a_2.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:03 AM] oct 24a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct24a_2.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:03 AM] oct 24a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct24a_2.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:03 AM] oct 24a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct24a_2.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:03 AM] oct 24a

Just while you are on that and looking ahead, do you not think it is also encumbent upon you as a person representing your security firm in the jock, to familiarise yourself with regulations and guidelines that regulate or govern a football match? - - - Soos ek ook reeds gesê het dit is vir my essensieël dat mense wat in die Gos werk om betrek te word by beplanningsvergaderings om behoorlik op hoogte te raak van reëls en regulasies van óf sokker óf rugby.

But it seems to me that absent this tragedy you would quite happy to proceed along the lines that you have, sitting in the jock, unaware of the operational plans, unaware of the rules that apply to football for that matter. I am not sure whether you are familiar with the rules of rugby. - - - Die doel van myself in die Gos is 'n kommunikasiekanaal tussen APS en die ander rolspelers en dit is nie vir my om die bestuur van Ellis Park voorskriftelik voor te wees nie. Met alle respek, dit is vir my om voorstelle te maak aan Ellis Park. Die uiteindelike besluitneming is by Ellis Park bestuur.

Your evidence is not today that at any point before kick-off did you even suggest to Mrs Coetzee or Mr Coetzee or Mr Stainton or to Pieter of the PSL for that matter, that the game should not go ahead because of crowd trouble outside. - - - Mnr Coetzee is die bevelvoerder koördineerder van die Gos en is heeltemal op hoogte, glo ek, gewees met al die omstandighede en dit sou vir my geen sin maak om 'n voorstel aan mev Coetzee te maak nie aangesien mnr Coetzee sowel as mnr Stainton ten volle op hoogte was van wat aangegaan het.

But then I am trying to understand in response to a question about whether the game should have started or not, you said the game should not have started and I am sure you said that based on your experience that night. - - - Dit is korrek.

So I am asking you why did you not share that experience with either the three or is your answer that you assumed that Messrs Stainton and Coetzee and Ms Coetzee would have been aware of the drastic situation outside? - - - Ek sal weer herhaal dat ek glo mnr Stainton en mnr Coetzee was ten volle bewus van die omstandighede binne en buite die stadion.

Do I assume correctly when I say that when you say Mr Stainton and Mr Coetzee would have been aware of the situation in and around the stadium, was by virtue of the fact that they carried these two-way radios on the Ellis Park channel? - - - Dit en dat hulle baie rondbeweeg het.

Because we know that for no length of time did either Mr Stainton or Mr Coetzee actually sit in the jock. - - - Dit is korrek.

You said to us very clearly and this is just to clarify that you have a very limited role sitting in the jock as a representative of AIN, you had no powers, you had no authority. - - - Dit is korrek.

Your view from the jock was limited to what you saw in front of you and that would have been on the east side, on the west side and on the south side. - - - Die uitsig vanwaar ek gesit het in die Gos was plus-minus 80% van die veld. Die gedeelte wat jy nie kon gesien het nie was die gedeelte aan die noordelike pawiljoen. Die gedeelte wat ons nié kon sien nie is direk onder die Gos geleë.

part 3

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct24a_2.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:03 AM] oct 24a

     #    ! "  # $ % &  '( $ % &  )))*+!,* *-

Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

Ellispark Hearings, Oct 24a - part 3 1

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct24a_3.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:04 AM] oct 24a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct24a_3.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:04 AM] oct 24a

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" / /. 9/* 3 3 3 A ! 88* file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct24a_3.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:04 AM] oct 24a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct24a_3.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:04 AM] oct 24a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct24a_3.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:04 AM] oct 24a

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CHAIRMAN: So twice she misheard the conversation?

MR ANTROBUS: No Mr Chairman, it does not follow because there were in fact, you may remember Mr Stainton having asked for example the Metro officials to make an announcement to the effect that tickets were sold out. That was the message that was being given out to try to get people to not continue to try to enter the stadium, to try to prevent spectators from obtaining tickets willy nilly, come hell or high water, that was an attempt to get the people away from storming the fences at that point.

ADV SEMENYA: And that was at 19:15?

MR ANTROBUS: Yes, that was early, that was early on the evidence of Mr Stainton.

ADV SEMENYA: 19:10 when the same message is related over the radio you say it could not have been made because they could not .. [intervenes]

MR ANTROBUS: Mr Chairman, all I am debating with this witness is the precise wording. She is saying she heard words precisely which said

62 000 tickets are sold out. Whether or not she gets a message from, I do not know who she gets it from, I can try to ascertain that, at a later stage that says tickets are sold out. It could be that that message comes in because that message was trying to be given out.

ADV SEMENYA: Mr Antrobus, listen to my difficulty. At 19:10 the message is that all the tickets are sold out and Mr Stainton tells us that at 19:15 although not factually correct he had sent that type of message out. Now you are saying the 19:10 message cannot be right because nobody at Ellis Park would have know at that time that all the tickets are sold out. You see, that statement was a matter of fact said, whether it was factually correct is another inquiry. But you cannot say you could not have heard it because .. [intervenes]

MR ANTROBUS: No, it only goes to the probability, I accept that.

ADV SEMENYA: It cannot be, because Mr Stainton himself at 19:15 said tell everybody that tickets are sold out. So by definition that information by Ellis Park management was made. Whether it was made with the intention to dissuade others or it was made because it was factually correct or whatever the motive, it is irrelevant. Now my difficulty is you are impeaching this witness or seeking to impeach the witness to have heard something that Mr Stainton would have communicated by 19:15.

MR ANTROBUS: Well, all I can do is operate within the constraints of my instructions Mr Chairman. My instructions are .. [intervenes]

ADV SEMENYA: I am saying they are conflicting.

MR ANTROBUS: No, I do not think they are necessary in conflict. There was a conversation between Mr Douglas and Mr Stainton. Both of them do not deny such a conversation. It was a conversation about tickets and the number of tickets may well have been mentioned. It was not a conversation about how many tickets were sold out, that is the point.

ADV SEMENYA: No Mr Stainton had told people that they are sold out.

MR ANTROBUS: But he was not telling Mr Morris that on the radio which is what she overheard.

ADV SEMENYA: It may be, but what I am trying to convey with you or understand your instructions to be, is that there is a point at which management for whatever reason, tells the following information. All tickets sold out, correct?

MR ANTROBUS: There is a point at which Mr Stainton asks certainly in the south-western side and I think at the Currey Street corner, Mr Mbuli, to make that announcement. Whether or not he talks to the jock I cannot .. [intervenes]

ADV SEMENYA: That information Mr Mbuli has told us gets communicated to the other cars and the intention by Mr Stainton is that everybody should know that information.

MR ANTROBUS: Certainly the people outside the fence should know that information.

ADV SEMENYA: Correct. Now you are saying to the lady that information about tickets being sold out .. [intervenes]

MR ANTROBUS: I am not debating that principle with her. I am simply debating her having overheard this particular conversation with this mention of numbers and tickets being sold out. That is all. I think she has given her answer in any event.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Faber?

MR FABER: Thank you Mr Chairman, I just want to place one thing here which I think we are losing, certainly we might be losing focus of and I say this with the greatest of respect. These notes that were made were made contemporaneously by the witness and I think that must be borne in mind. What motivation would the witness have had writing down something which was not heard by her? It does not follow a fortiori from her statement that she could have written something down which was fictitious. I do not understand the motivation for the question here and I think it is in line with what you are saying.

ADV SEMENYA: It has been contended that ex temporaneously she misheard. That is the only point that Mr Antrobus is making.

MR ANTROBUS: I think that is right. I am saying to her that she has given evidence about the circumstances in the jock. It is "oordowend" you yourself are busy. It is a conversation which she overhear, not on your radio but the Ellis Park radio and I am asking the witness whether she could possibly have misunderstood that, the import of that conversation. Perhaps I should give the witness after this debate another opportunity to answer. Do you want to comment on that? - - - Ek volstaan dat ek gehoor het dat Morris sê 62 000 kaartjies is verkoop en dat ekstra kaartjies gedruk word.

CHAIRMAN: We will be using, for the judicial commemoration proceedings, we will be using this court, so I suggest you put your books somewhere. If you need assistance in that regard .... sorry I was, if I may just say this, if you need a safe place where you could leave your books, she will show you an office where you could put your books

there until tomorrow morning. We will adjourn then until 10:30 tomorrow morning.

PROCEEDINGS ADJOURN

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct25a_1.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:05 AM] oct 25a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct25a_1.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:05 AM] oct 25a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct25a_1.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:05 AM] oct 25a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct25a_1.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:05 AM] oct 25a

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  +! !1 0 /2 < /. #.0  / 1,# 1 .. , 11#  / !.* ! / ,,2 3 3 3 A ! 88*

6 0 )  / !  /) 7## / !. )!2 3 3 3 @*

A. 0   !. . #8 !. / !. /) 7##  )!2 3 3 3 @*

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A. 0 9# / !. !. )! 0 7##  0/ #8 /2 3 3 3 @ 1 .. !. *

 /* <! 1,.* 3 3 3   1 E !. / . ! 9  1/1 ) /## 8    . . /88  *

 0 #8 9 )/,/ !  F C!!2 3 3 3 .9 >!  .   / !.*

" /!  11# / / #.0 . /  1   ##! 82 3 3 3 A !  *

A. /0 / ,8! )/ / ,#. 0 !2 3 3 3 = /## / 8+! 90 /## /.*

 /* /0 ,#.    / !. ;,8  / /  )! .  ! !* ! / ,,2 3 3 3 A ! 88* C## /  9     /88  8#* ! ! / /## 19 8  /## )!  #*

C) 0 ) 0 6#7 77,#!  / 12 3 3 3 @#) / ! E 1!  . 98  . #/8  E 1!  . 98  . #/8*

" /  ##0 ) 6#7 77,#! /2 3 3 3 = 1 !#*

<!2 . /) 0 !#! ) 9 !.  / 1,# 12 3 3 3 A /  7 90 ) /8 ! )!*

  / , /   9 7 !#!* ! / ,,2 3 3 3 = . ! 88*

C) 0 !#! , 0 ,##2 '  !(2 3 3 3 A !  8 .8 . ! . 90 C8  . C8 *

" /  9 !( !#!2 3 3 3 A ! 88*

6/  6#7 77,#   / !.   / !.2 3 3 3 A ! 88*

 /* / 11# !. ,#9 0 !0  / !2 3 3 3 =  / !#!* file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct25a_2.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:05 AM] oct 25a

<!2 3 3 3   /##    . 8     # ! C8  !! C8  C8  ! . ) #/88*

## !/ !* <!2 ) 7 /* ! / ,,2 3 3 3 = 8 . ! )*

6 /!   1  ,#!. 1!2 3 3 3 C## )! *

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6! / !0  .2    # 7 11# /   .! 7 / 01* < #0 #7 / 1 . /0 ## 1 /0  ; !0* 3 3 3 @ /## 8  8#8 1 *

6 /0 #,8.   ,#!. 1!2 3 3 3 C## )!  !# * =0 8 / 1!#  E !## . # /## 1*

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" )/ !!, ! /   1! )/ !  #7 /!  #0 / ) / 7 / 2 3 3 3 A /88 / E  *

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#.  1! #7   7 / )!  ! 1!2 3 3 3 @*

 /* " / )/ /11.2 /0 ,#.    ;,8  / 90 ,#9  / !#! . / ! /0 . ! 7 / /   /! ## !2 3 3 3 = /## / . #/88 / /## . 1 E  1 #  /## / . . . 8#  9 . !.  8*

C) / / .. /0 #7 /2 H / / )! / /2 3 3 3 = . 8  8/  )!*

. / /0 ,)#. ./ /2 3 3 3 A ! 88*

 #  9!  /) 02 3 3 3 =  #  9!*

. )/ )! 0 6#7 ,  /!2 3 3 3 ! / /## 19  /  ! !   )!  /##  8 *

" 7 / ) ) 1 !# 0 /. 9  6#7 77,#! /2 3 3 3 A ! 88*

A. 0 / 0 / !11#0 !,0 .,  1#,  !!! 0  / 2 3 3 3 1 E !. / . 1#! ! 8 /#1*

6/ /0 !!.2 3 3 3 8 # ! 8 / /## 1 E !. 1* A )! 9 .8 1 .. !.*

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. /0 / .2 3 3 3 =*

.  /  /! 11# ) ,#9  / !   . / ## !/ !2 3 3 3 A ! 88*

C) 0 11#   ! ## ##0 . /! 1. 02 3 3 3 = . )! 9*

#. 0 ! )// 0 1,#  )! / #0  (1, /! 19#2 3 3 3 @* 8 /  . .E! / . . ! / .!#7. 19# 90 /## /88 8*

6/ 0 !0 / / 11# . 0  )/  >! ? & . 4 2 3 3 3 = 5     .  *

## 7 ,! 7 / !. ) (1, !/ !#2 3 3 3 A ! 88*

A. 0  0 1!! / /  1 7,! /. 9 9,/. 0)/  / 11# )/ ,8! /. . / !.2 3 3 3 8 8  / *

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" / 9,/! ) 90 11# )/ ) #.0  / !. 1  7 ##! 8E! .2 3 3 3 A ! 88*

<!2 @) 7 /) # .. /! ! 1!! )/ 11# +1  / ! 0 0  !1 / / 1#, . 11# ) ,)# ./ / ## !/ !2 3 3 3 A 8  !8 !8 )! /    . E E . ).!0. 9  /*

A. 0  /  ## !  /! 1,# !2 3 3 3 =*

. )/ .. 0 . ## /  )/# /! 11# ) 9/  /! 7!/2 3 3 3 ! / 19  /##   /  ! )!   )!*

. 0 ,.  . ! ## /  / 0 ) /2 3 3 3 A ! 88*

" ## 0 ,#. . )! 1/1! !#) .) / 1 9 0 )  / ,/ !,,!!2 3 3 3 A ! 88*

A. / 1#, !!! 0  /!  !1 2 3 3 3 = /## / ! /#1 9  . )!  # !*

" / ,9. 6#7 . 1#, .!  ##0 ,. / !  ,.2 3 3 3 = . )!  # !8! )!*

. ..  ##0 !12 3 3 3 =*

. )/02 A. /0   7 !1,! / ).  ,  /  )/2 3 3 3 = 8 .8 . ) )    / )!  #  .. 0. # 8# 9*

" 0 /.   11#  7 7 / !2 3 3 3 @*

6! / .  .  0 1,#   / !.2 3 3 3 =*

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct25a_2.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:05 AM] oct 25a

6/ 0 !0 98 . 0  /  !#7  /   )/2 3 3 3 C## / .  8/  1 9  . .  8# ! . /8 8  . 7  7 1  *

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C  #8  1/ &  ! / 1/E! / / 0 /  7 7 02 / !  1/ 7 / /! , !  (!!  /  )/ / .#  .) 7 / 0 . .) / !1!  / 7#.2 3 3 3 A ! 88*

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. 0  ) 7 /  / /)! , *** $!% 3 3 3 @/)!*

6/ 0 !0 /! /11.2 3 3 3 A ! 88*

6/ / 11# /. .   / !#!  ./ .. /0 ##  / 1,#  0 1  / !. 9/.   .. /0  1 . .)  /! 1!! ! ! )##2 3 3 3 C## / 1  7 /.#1*

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6 / 1#, . / ,  !!! 02 3 3 3 8 .8 /## / /## E9!E 90 /## /.  8 8  / 7 /## !8#. /. / *

A. /0 1  ! /! 9!  / 11#2 3 3 3 C## / 19  /##   .8  . *** $#.%

6 11# !,8 )/ / )/,/ )#. / ##0 9 (1,.  ,!  #!  /.,/  ! +02 3 3 3 8 8  . /  . )! 9 .8*

A. 0 !77 0 +!  0 7 0 6#7 ,## ! /2 3 3 3 C## /  10 811  /## 81 /. 7 ! !*

. , /  ) /. !. . ! 7 /! 11# /.    0 1 . / 1!! )! #. / )/ .. 0 / .2 / ! )! )  #   7#!/ 1  0  )## 0 /. #! / 9# /* 3 3 3 ! / ! ! 90 . /88 #!   808 .    ! .  ! 8   !   # *

. / )/ .. 0 / 2 3 3 3 8 / 90 C8    9#0*

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D# / . 7 /  )/,/ / 1,.. )/ 7/ ,.2 3 3 3 = . ! 88*

A. 0    / !.  ! /) 7## / !. /. ) 2 3 3 3 @ . )!  # ! 8 8  9 . !. 8 *

6/ 0 !0 0 ,#.   0 )/0 ,#.E 0  0  / !.2 3 3 3 C## / .    . # ! ! ! 8  9 . !. 8   ! 1 . #. *

6/ 0 !0 / 1!! ! / !  # 1!!  / !  / .) 7 / 9! 7 / / .!. /  1!! *  ! 7 / 1!  )#. 9 !!#!!  !. 0 , ! / .* "  0 ! ! / /  1!!  )! 7## 7 11# )/ !. / 7     . !) /   0 ! ! /  )! #0 7##  / 0 1!  / #) ,!2 3 3 3 C## /  . 9   .  . .  . + ) .  !8  . 7 / /##  !*

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct25a_2.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:05 AM] oct 25a

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6/ )! / . !. / +,8 . / 9#.31  / 2 3 3 3  )## !18  9/#7 7 0!#7*  )! !1!. 90 / 9 7 / 11# / )   / .! 7 / !.* ## 7 / ) ##0 .0  ! 7 / !,, ,/  / / 1 . !. / +,8 / )!  # 7 !* / ! )! .7 * 6 ) !18  ! !#! 9  )! .77,#* 7  , !   7 / 9  B 6 .!,!!.  ! !#!  / +,8 /) .77,#0  , 9  . . ,, )/  .77 1!! 9,! 7 / ! 7 / !.*

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C@B < !## 2 file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct25a_2.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:05 AM] oct 25a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct25a_2.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:05 AM] oct 25a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct25a_2.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:05 AM] oct 25a

/ 6#7 77,#!  0 #!2 3 3 3 @*

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct25a_2.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:05 AM] oct 25a

A 0 8) )/ / !.  / ,!9# .. 0 / / ,!2 3 3 3 @*

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LF . 8!L )/ ! / L98!L $9(!   #!/% 90 /8 ? 1#!  ).*L 6/ .! / # 2 3 3 3 /!  / 9(! ) ! )/ )  / ,8!* 6 /) / !. . 0/ / ! .0*

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct25a_2.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:05 AM] oct 25a

. /B L8  98!L* 6/ ! 82 3 3 3 / ! / 77,  ,/  90 ! 5 . *

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct25a_2.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:05 AM] oct 25a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct25a_2.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:05 AM] oct 25a

/ / / . / / )  # 7 11# !.*

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CHAIRMAN: We would maybe want to adjourn now considering as to how much time was spent with Miss Stoman around this matter.

MR ANTROLOUS: I don't intend to spend nearly so long with this witness, but I imagine it would be quicker if I could order my thoughts.

CHAIRMAN: You mean for tomorrow?

MR ANTROLOUS: For tomorrow, yes.

CHAIRMAN: Then let us adjourn until quarter to ten tomorrow morning.

PROCEEDINGS ADJOURN UNTIL 26 OCTOBER 2001

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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MR ARENDSE: With your leave chair person I wonder if I shouldn't follow the Ellispark and the police. A lot of my markings here relate to Ellispark documents and police documents. So I am likely to cover, maybe not in the same detail but I am likely to cover some areas that will, I will be surprised if they are not covered by my colleagues just in terms of shortening the cross-examination.

It has got nothing to do with the fact that it is my birthday today.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ANTROLOUS: Mr Van Huyssteen what time were you supposed to report to the jock that afternoon, can you recall? - - - I believe they didn't say to me what time.

Who would ordinarily tell you what time you must report to the job? Mr Van Rooyen or somebody else? - - - Normally it would be Mr Van Rooyen.

Because it would seem certainly from the evidence of the previous witness, Miss Stoman, that jock attendance was supposed to be from some time earlier, by three o'clock. I see you are nodding your head. Do you agree with that? - - - That is correct.

Is that usually the case for a game starting at the starting time of eight o'clock? - - - The times that we are supposed to be there is different or differs.

You say in your statement and I think you can term that in your evidence now that you at no stage saw any public order police in the jock that afternoon/evening? - - - He was there for a short while.

And that was well before the game started? - - - That is correct.

You have mentioned in your evidence or let me ask you this: were you present in court while Miss Stoman testified? - - - That is correct.

Throughout her testimony? - - - That is correct.

Well you would then have heard that, and you have testified a little on it yourself, that there was a time at which Mr Stanton and Mr Coetzee came to the jock? - - - That is correct.

You recall that? - - - That is correct.

And at that time did you see any members of public order police in the jock? - - - I can't remember.

Is it possible that one of them, a public order policeman could have come and stood at the back of the jock in the doorway and that was one of the reasons why Mr Stanton and Mr Coetzee came to the jock in order to remove that police? - - - That could be so.

Now look at your log. I see that there is a gap. I think it is between the times, your entry number 19 of the second page or the third page of your log, 02:05 and then there is a gap and 20:30, that is a 25 minute gap. - - - That is correct.

To what do you ascribe that? That would seem to have been a very busy period? - - - That is correct.

And were you receiving radio calls on your Wolf radio during that period? - - - That is correct.

Virtually continuously is that what you say? - - - That is correct.

And yet you didn't write there any entries in respect of any of those calls? - - - Yes, there were a lot of communication. A person cannot write all what was said.

What would those communications have been and the nature of all those many communications you say that were made at that stage? - - - That it was very busy outside the gates.

So that would have been Wolf people at the gates and the parameter to the stadium itself informing you what? As to the situation where they were? - - - That is correct.

How did you react to that? I mean did you do anything with that information? - - - We were busy in the jock and we were sending messages to and fro. A person is very busy inside the jock.

That I understand, but I am simply trying to understand from you what, if anything, you did with that information? - - - It was general knowledge in the jock that it was busy outside by the gates and it was not necessary to take it over to the other people.

Now if I can turn for a moment to the entry of 19:10.

CHAIRMAN: We would maybe want to adjourn now considering as to how much time was spent with Miss Stoman around this matter.

MR ANTROLOUS: I don't intend to spend nearly so long with this witness, but I imagine it would be quicker if I could order my thoughts.

CHAIRMAN: You mean for tomorrow?

MR ANTROLOUS: For tomorrow, yes.

CHAIRMAN: Then let us adjourn until quarter to ten tomorrow morning.

PROCEEDINGS ADJOURN UNTIL 26 OCTOBER 2001

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct25b.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:07 AM] oct 26

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct26.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:08 AM] oct 26

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct26.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:08 AM] oct 26

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct26.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:08 AM] oct 26

3 3 3 A ! 88*

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 )/* 3 3 3 &B&*

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6/ .. 0 . 9)   7 . !0  B   B2 3 3 3 8 / *** $#.%

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6#. 0 ,,1 / . /! 1. )/,/ !  .  #! /  7 /! 97 / ,/ !! 3   +! #8 /. ! / /! )/ /11. /  , 9 .. 3 /  )#. #! 9 1 7 / ,. 7 / =  ,##0 ! .) /   0 . / / 1!  !0 E#8 /! !  9  ) / /. 19#!  / 1! . ) ,1  9 ,).  /* : ! +! .!,!! / )0 /. . )/ ) !/#. 9 . )/ )  !! ! 7 ,).! 7 !. / !.  ## . ,.,E  / ! #8 /2 3 3 3 A ! 88*

AD<3C@B  !/#. / /11 !. / =   / 131!  !2

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct26.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:08 AM] oct 26

 @A"B 6##  !/#. ,##0 /11  / 131!  ! 9 ) ) 8) /  !!      / = .. 0 7 / 131!  !*

AD<3C@B <!   +! 0  /8 7). #8 0 !0 / #8 7). .. 0 (1, /  /11  / =  / 131!  2

 @A"B /  !!  *

AD<3C@B /2

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" # ! +! !8   0 ! 9  9 # 8)#.  )#. 0 !## !,8  / ! . 9!#0   7 !1,7,##0   !/  )/ )! / ": 1 /) )#. / / 8) / / ! !. )! ,/, 7 (1# ,#0 7  6#7 1 7 ) 7  )!  .9#  / )/ 0 ) /  0 .2 3 3 3 / 8 )  / ! /0 . / / *

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct26.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:08 AM] oct 26

 !/ / 8. 7 7* 3 3 3 = 8 !#  ) *

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H0 11# ! 9  / =* / / 80 .,! 8! ! 9  / = ##0 7 0 ,  !  / = 1! 6#7 / 0 ! / / /0  8 .,!!  .1#0 11# 7 (1#  !! .! . !77 #8 /* 3 3 3 A 8 !8 /#1 +*

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Did I understand your evidence correct that due to the large volume of messages that you had to relay and that you had to hear on your radio set that you did not necessarily write down everything in the log that you have kept. - - - Dit is korrek.

However, all the messages that you received and you were requested to relay to any other entity, you did that. - - - Dit is korrek.

Now due to the radio sounds and the discussions and the relaying of messages, would it have been possible for any person in the JOC to be unaware of the fact that there were serious problems outside the stadium? - - - Nee.

Thank you Mr Commissioner, I have got no further questions.

CHAIRMAN: May I excuse the witness?

MR ATTWELL: May I ask one question in re-examination please Mr Chairman, thank you, with your permission?

CHAIRMAN: Yes.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR ATTWELL: It was put to you by my learned colleague Mr Arendse towards the end of his cross-examination that even though you yourself were told of the chaotic situation, those were your words in your JOC and although you and Ms Stoman may well have thought that the game should not proceed, none of you, and that would have included Mr Mashego, would have had the authority to actually do anything decisive about it like stopping the game. - - - Dit is korrek.

Is there any doubt in your mind that the people who could take the decisions, certainly from people you were communicating with, your boss Mr van Rooyen... (intervenes). - - - Van Rooyen.

Mr Coetzee and other senior people, do you have any doubt that any of them was in any ignorance at the relevant time of what the situation was outside the stadium? - - - Ek glo nie so nie. Ek dink hulle het geweet wat buite die stadion aangaan.

Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you, you are excused.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS

MR ATTWELL: I call as the next witness then with permission Mr Chairman, Mr Morris Douglas and I beg leave to hand up two sets of documents to which Mr Douglas will be referring in his evidence. Mr Chairman I have taken the liberty of marking these new documents EP12 - I am handing them up now - 12 and then the series follows A, B, C, D. Exhibit EP12 is the ticket which already is before you for a game of 11 April and because Mr Douglas is involved with that process I have seen fit to mark these exhibits 12A, B, C, D because I think that is where they will logically fit in. So if I may do so sir.

MORRIS DOUGLAS d.s.s.

EXAMINATION BY MR ATTWELL: Thank your Mr Chairman. Mr Douglas, you are employed since February 1992 as the financial manager of the rugby. - - - That is correct.

You are stationed at Ellis Park. - - - That is correct.

This is a full-time employment. - - - Yes.

CHAIRMAN: I am told your voice is not coming through, they are not able to record you. We will adjourn for a few minutes.

MR ATTWELL: Perhaps I can just take this and borrow my colleague's microphone. All the microphones out? Mr Chairman we seem to have struck a problem with a particular microphone. One is not able simply to swop microphones. The lady in charge of the recording says they will have to find another microphone and lead it from that to her particular machine. The suggestion has come given the time and the hour and the fact that 13:00 was going to be our deadline for today whether it might not be appropriate at this stage to take the adjournment and let the proceedings stand down till Monday at 10:00.

CHAIRMAN: What about 09:30?

MR ATTWELL: 09:30.

CHAIRMAN: I propose that from next week we start at 09:30 in the morning and ... (intervenes).

MR ATTWELL: I have no problems with that and I do not know if any of my colleagues, I am getting heads shaken. Any problem on a Monday?

MR COETZEE: Can we make that arrangement for Tuesday of next week. We get in on a Monday morning chair.

CHAIRMAN: Okay, from Tuesday 09:30 then and we may have to finish the evidence within the next three weeks. We are adjourned until 10:00 Monday morning.

PROCEEDINGS ADJOURN

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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Operation guys from where? - - - From Ellis Park Stadium.

So Ellis Park Stadium would take that decision. - - - Yes, because it is Ellis Park's property.

And you said in your evidence that there was no effort to take turnstile readings at gates 4, 5 and 6. So you therefore did not actually know how many people had entered the stadium. - - - We had no idea how many people entered the stadium, because people had got in free without tickets.

At the game you were not in touch with any of Kaizer Chiefs officials? - - - No, only early in the eve ... during the course of the day and then after the event.

And how many more tickets were printed on the day of the game, did you say 4000? - - - 4000 plus about a 100 complimentary tickets and then some for the suite holders who wanted a few extra tickets.

Is it a possibility that certain tickets that were printed were not part of this audit trail? - - - No.

It is not possible? - - - Not possible.

Who prepared this audit trail? - - - I got it to print.

I beg your pardon? - - - It was myself and my ticket office.

Does it print itself as a matter of course or do you have to instruct it to make a printout? - - - You have to instruct it to print it.

And it picks up everything? - - - Every transaction.

What was the last time to your recollection that a ticket was actually printed that day or night? - - - I cannot give you a definite time, but the last ones would probably have been some of the suite holders I should imagine. I really could not tell you a time, I was outside from about 19:00.

And as a matter of course for a game of this nature when more people arrive at the stadium than are expected to go to the actual ticket booths and buy tickets, in a matter of course did you run of more tickets? - - - No.

Why would that not be a matter of course, surely it is revenue for the stake holders? - - - Well, as I explained you get a 1000 tickets an hour out of a printer which gives you the two printers is 2000. They still have to be schedulised, checked by Kaizer Chiefs staff, signed for, taken down to their events room, then split out and then take them to the ticket sellers. You could be looking at two, two-and-a-half hours to do 2000 tickets out to them which would not give you much time.

You said in your evidence that you randomly print tickets and this is done on estimations. Do you agree with that? - - - What do you mean randomly?

Well, you do not exactly know how many spectators are expected at the game. You know that you can have a 30% or 40% return and on that basis you are comfortable issuing more tickets than anticipated the stadium can actually hold of spectators. - - - This is discussed with Kaizer Chiefs, it is not just a random decision.

But there is no communication on the day of the game or two or three days leading up to the actual game. - - - Well, there was a meeting held the day before the game and I was in discussions with Chiefs staff on the morning of the game.

Is it not a dangerous procedure, I put it to you. - - - With hindsight we probably would not do it again. You would billed in a 5% safety factor.

30% to 40% historical return basis, is that from rugby or from soccer that you get that? - - - From soccer. Based on soccer.

From soccer. Is that a standard agreed amount of return in the industry? - - - I have no idea.

So how do you come to 30% or 40% return? - - - Working through the previous games that they printed tickets for and the ones that were returned.

Knowing that this is a popular game, a rival match between Chiefs and Pirates, would one not have brought down that estimation? - - - Well the one in 2000 they were expecting 45 000 people and I think they got

28 000 and the necessary tickets were printed for that one.

You see my difficulty is, if you take into account a 40% return and you issue 50 to 60 000 tickets, effectively you can get 70 000 or

80 000 or 90 000 people arriving at a game with tickets. - - - We did not print the tickets based on a 30% or 40%, we based them on about a 15% to 20% which would give you an anticipated 9 000 return.

How do you come to that figure? - - - If you take your day of the game, if you take your 46 500 and a 20% of that there will give you about 9 000 tickets.

Is that including the suite holders? - - - That is excluding the suite -that is based on the 46 500 printed for Chiefs.

And if you include the suite holders what does it take it up to? - - - You do not work on returns for suite holders, because suite holders are printed on demand.

But that surely is another factor that has to be taken into account, that is another 10 000 people that effectively may arrive at the game. - - - Most of them have got their tickets long beforehand.

That is exactly the point. You should bring down your estimation, not take it up. - - - Which we did, we did not push it up. We downed it from 30% to 40% down to 15% to 20%.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Faber, I think you will have to stop here and adjourn until tomorrow morning. I am going to try for 09:30 like we discussed last week.

PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNS UNTIL 30 OCTOBER 2001 AT 09:30

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct31a.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:12 AM] oct 31a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct31a.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:12 AM] oct 31a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct31a.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:12 AM] oct 31a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct31a.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:12 AM] oct 31a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct31a.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:12 AM] oct 31a

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  !8  !0 / / ! / ! 1 !1, 7 !,  1 9,/! 7 /  1 7,2 3 3 3 A ! !* file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct31a.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:12 AM] oct 31a

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#0* 3 3 3 8 / /*

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 # )! !. 9 / 7, / / !  #,  / !,0 !0!  / / !,0 7 / !1, ! !,/ !  )## #8. 7*  )! 1  file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct31a.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:12 AM] oct 31a

0  ,!!3( / 7 ! /.  7##   ! )/ / ! 1!/. 7 9/. .) / !)0  , 7 / / )#. 9  !,0 .  1,8 1 / 1!* A 0 ,## /2 3 3 3 F ! F1 /. ! 93 . !. )  0  !#8 ## 808 +*

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6/ )#. /11   ! 7 ,7#, )/ / . 1! !   7 !18 2 : ! ! F1 . @O / ! ! ,7#, 7 !* C) )#.  !# /2 ! / 0 .#  )/ / 0 ! /11  0 (1,2 3 3 3 @ . !  E L .#L ) E ! 8 #   8 ) ) !  /##  1    . # /.  . !8  . !*

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct31a.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:12 AM] oct 31a

,! / +!.,!  ,##0 .,.* 3 3 3 A ! 88*

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@  ! 1!!9#*   !0 ! /  # (1# 7  ! 7 ! 0  ,,.2 3 3 3 8 .8 1 . . )0! /0 # /0 E "## L99L  /*

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct31a.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:12 AM] oct 31a

/0   0 .  1 / * 3 3 3 =*

.  / .0  ;! )/0 )#. / ## 7  !.. /  !!  1!   +!.,  / 2 6/0 ! / !1,#  / 1,# .2 3 3 3 A 8!7.# ! .  ! .1 ) )# 8 1  8  . ! . . 1. 7!#*

09 ) !   .!. ,/ /*   #8 9  ,,!! * 3 3 3 A ! 88*

7 )   /  7 ,! / +!., ! 7 / ,0 1#,* 3 3 3 =*

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C@B @ 9 0  9# /* < !0  !  7/ /*  - 11# 7 ! /  9# 7 (1# 0! / !7. /  ., 97 /! ,!! . 0 ) 1! 0 ) #! . 0  7 (1# 7. ! )## ) , #0 7 / 0  #. 0 ,!#  1    9# / / !. / =  / 7 7  7 / 11# 7  / )! /! 8. 7 .,* 3 3 3 9# )!   . = )!  ! /0 !#  8! . 7 . E .8 )! 7 *

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C@B  -  "8E! ,! )## 9 /  #0 )#. /! ,# .0 / 1!, 7 !,/  .,  / =  9 .. ! 0 0!#7 / /. )!!! !,/ ! ! " .0 / (!,  / 1!, 7 / .,  / =  /  /* 3 3 3 A )! 9!#! E 81  . = )!  . F! ) /0 ! #0. .  #8 ).!0.*

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< ..  1 / ., / 0!#7* 3 3 3 !18#8 / 8 / !#7 .  ! +*

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6/0 )#. 0 / !1,7,##0 .. / .0 / / ., )! /2 3 3 3 . . .8 #0. . !  . E 81 ! )  )0.  ).  . =  *

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct31a.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:12 AM] oct 31a

6## ! "E! ! )## 9 /  /. 9 .* 3 3 3 8 !8#  / .!*

80*  "8 0  7!/. 0 ;!!*  -2

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/ ! )/     ) ! / 7  /!  #8   5 )/,/ ! / A# , 1# 1# .  ! / 6#7 1# 1#*  0 +! 7. / ) .,!2 3 3 3 8 / 5*

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct31a.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:12 AM] oct 31a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct31a.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:12 AM] oct 31a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct31a.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:12 AM] oct 31a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct31a.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:12 AM] oct 31a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct31a.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:12 AM] oct 31a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct31a.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:12 AM] oct 31a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct31a.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:12 AM] oct 31a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct31a.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:12 AM] oct 31a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct31a.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:12 AM] oct 31a

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/oct31a.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:12 AM] nov 1a

     #    ! "  # $ % &  '( $ % &  )))*+!,* *-

Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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VOLUME 33

PAGES 2779 - 2906 A@>" "D @  @F  

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You did not? - - - No.

Did you instruct your staff not to admit that type? - - - No.

It appears to me and maybe this is also in summary, that you perceived that the problem that you anticipated on the northern side was when a group of people from the southern side had come across and three quarters of them were channelled out towards the northern area and some of them remained inside, not so? - - - No. I saw the problem long before that when I called for the other parties to come and speak to me.

I thought that was the time that you .. [intervenes] - - - No, that was long before that.

What difficulty did you have before you realised the particular build up on the northern side? - - - I do not quite understand.

I got the impression that when the two groups merged that is the lot that came from the bottom and those outside, that is when it really became a problem or am I wrong? - - - No, that is correct, but that was later. That is when they started breaking through the gates.

Well, they must first have got together and then broken through and that must have been at about 20:30? - - - That must have been about 19:30/18:40.

19:30/19:40? - - - Yes, sorry 19:40.

And at no stage did you see that the barbed wire was actually deployed on the northern side. - - - No.

How can that be possible? - - - I am not saying it was not deployed.

No, I accept that. I want to know how it is possible that you could not see this vehicle deploying the barbed wire there where you say your attention was? You must accept it was deployed. - - - No Mr Wepener, my attention was on gate 4, gate 5 and gate 6. Yes, I was looking towards the outside because I knew that was where the problem was going to come from, but I was not looking at what the police were doing. I was concerned about the fight that we had on the inside.

So when you then say that there was from time to time you did not see police officers because first you were not looking for them and you were dealing with your own problems at the gate and that is at the stadium gate, not on the outer perimeters. - - - Yes and when we did go and shore-up the outer fences there were no policemen there to assist us.

I put it to you that I at least had it from Mr Coetzee that he saw the police busy in North Park Lane. - - - Mr Wepener, let me clarify that. I have not at one stage said that the police who were there on the night did not do their job. In fact I thought they did a sterling job. My comment was that there were not enough policemen.

Well, then maybe we can short circuit quite a lot. May I put it to you this way. There has been reference to certain games where there were more policemen than on this particular night and let me deal with the two that was picked. The one is there was a South Africa/France game, were you there? - - - Yes, I was.

That normally as an international game despite the classifications we have heard here gets classified as an A plus, whether it is a concert or not, it is an A plus. - - - That is correct.

That means heightened security, more people and that happens over the world and you have been over the world at every international game. - - - That is correct.

Secondly, the other instance that is referred to is the Nelson Mandela game. At that game not only was Mr Nelson Mandela there, there was virtually every cabinet minister of the country, virtually every prime minister of the provinces were there and that was heightened security and VIP protection rather than anything else. - - - I do not agree with you.

Why not? - - - There is a specific unit that deals with VIP protection. The policemen outside do not deal with that.

On that particular night when you expect your country's entire POP structure, would you expect of police to say we want heightened presence there? - - - Yes, I do. I just look at it differently sir. We look at the people at the stadium or the people of South Africa whether he is a minister or a member of the public makes no difference to me.

I can assure you that is is internationally accepted that when somebody like Mr Mandela who is regarded virtually still as the president of the country, he is present somewhere, there is extreme heightened security. - - - I accept that.

If the court will bear with me for one moment. Mr Chairman, I would just like to talk to the policeman behind me. It is really very necessary to put anything further to the witness in the light of the concession he has made earlier. I doubt whether he will be finished today because Mr Coetzee is going to be with him. If there is anything else it will really be very short. We are close to the adjournment time.

CHAIRMAN: Yes.

MR WEPENER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: If we adjourn Mr Attwell, would you .. [intervenes]

MR ATTWELL: Would you like me to comment sir?

CHAIRMAN: No, you do not mind making a turn at my chambers.

MR ATTWELL: No certainly I will come now sir.

CHAIRMAN: Then I think we should adjourn until 09:30 then tomorrow morning.

PROCEEDINGS ADJOURN

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Transcriptions of Proceedings - Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the 11 April 2001 Ellis Park disaster

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file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/nov2a.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:17 AM] nov 2a

MR WEPENER: It is such a point Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Houston, will you please be here on Monday at 10:00 so that we can finalise your evidence. - - - Yes sir.

Thank you, we are adjourned until 10:00 Monday.

PROCEEDINGS ADJOURN

file:///E|/justice/commissions/comm_epark/ep_hearings/nov2a.htm[2009/08/06 08:43:17 AM]