Tuesday Volume 516 12 October 2010 No. 50

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 12 October 2010

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2010 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 135 12 OCTOBER 2010 136

taking on more tax officers and ensuring a good House of Commons geographical spread to make sure we get in the maximum tax revenues possible? Tuesday 12 October 2010 Mr Gauke: As was made clear in the Chief Secretary to the Treasury’s statement, the Government are determined The House met at half-past Two o’clock to reduce the tax gap. It currently stands at £42 billion. It is too high, but we are determined to take measures to PRAYERS address it and we have already announced proposals by which we can reduce the tax gap.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Budget (Regional Differences)

BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS 2. Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): What representations he has received on variations between ELECTORAL COMMISSION the English regions and constituent parts of the UK in respect of the effects of the measures in the June 2010 The VICE-CHAMBERLAIN OF THE HOUSEHOLD reported to the House, That the Address of 15th September, Budget. [16481] praying that Her Majesty will appoint as Electoral Commissioners: 3. Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): What representations he has received on variations between (1) Angela Frances, Baroness Browning, with effect the English regions and constituent parts of the UK in from 1 October 2010 for the period ending on 30 September respect of the effects of the measures in the June 2010 2014; Budget. [16482] (2) David Ross Howarth, with effect from 1 October 2010 for the period ending on 30 September 2014; The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): (3) Roy Francis, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, with We received representations from many interested parties effect from 1 October 2010 for the period ending on from all parts of the UK and at the time of the Budget 30 September 2014; and we published details of the impact of the Budget on (4) Rt. Hon. George Newlands Reid, with effect from each English region and each devolved Administration. 1 October 2010 for the period ending on 30 September 2012, Kevin Brennan: Does not the Government’s proposed closure of the passport office in Newport show that, far was presented to Her Majesty, who was graciously from us all being in this together, these Budget cuts will pleased to comply with the request. fall disproportionately on the poorest parts of the UK? Is this closure inevitable? Oral Answers to Questions Danny Alexander: I am grateful for the question, and I understand the sensitivity in the community about that decision. The spending review will, of course, result in some difficult decisions having to be made all over TREASURY the country. I can however say to the hon. Gentleman that we are looking very closely at the regional and national impact of particular decisions. One of the The Chancellor of the Exchequer was asked— reasons why the Deputy Prime Minister announced a regional growth fund for England is to deal with those Tax Compliance issues, and I hope very much that the Welsh Assembly Government might follow suit. 1. Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): What steps his Department is taking to increase the level of tax Paul Blomfield: Will the Chief Secretary acknowledge compliance. [16480] the analysis undertaken by the Institute for Fiscal Studies, whose head at that time now leads the Office for Budget The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Responsibility, that found that the measures in the Gauke): The Chief Secretary to the Treasury announced emergency Budget will hit those on lowest incomes £900 million of investment in Her Majesty’s Revenue hardest and will have a disproportionate impact on and Customs to tackle avoidance, evasion and fraud, constituencies in the north? sending a clear signal that the spending review will be focused on both fairness and deficit reduction. It will Danny Alexander: If anything demonstrates the include an increase in prosecutions and steps to tackle independence of the OBR it is the appointment of the organised criminal excise smuggling. HMRC also recognises head of the IFS to be the head of the OBR, and I hope the importance of helping businesses to get their tax that will put an end to any such criticisms from the hon. right and has launched additional education and guidance Gentleman’s side of the House. The analysis was interesting, packages in order to do so. but the analysis we published at the time of the Budget was robust and soundly based. I have carefully studied Nia Griffith: Given the enormous importance of reducing the IFS’s additional analysis, and I think it makes some the tax gap, and thereby reducing the deficit, what assumptions that push the boundaries. As a result it is assurances can the Minister give that actually he will be not an analysis the Treasury would stand by. I would 137 Oral Answers12 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 138 stand by the view that the measures we announced in Budget Deficit Reduction the Budget were progressive and fair and hit the people on the highest incomes hardest. 4. Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): What recent representations he has received on steps to reduce the Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Can the Chief Secretary budget deficit. [16483] tell the House the benefits that the regional growth fund will have for neglected regions, in particular coastal and seaside towns? 6. Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): What recent representations he has received on steps to Danny Alexander: I fear that the hon. Gentleman will reduce the budget deficit. [16485] have to wait until a week tomorrow for the spending review announcement to hear details of that sort, but I The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): can tell him that the purpose of the regional growth The Government’s plan to tackle the record budget fund is precisely to ensure that areas hit hardest by deficit they inherited has been supported by the CBI, public spending cuts or areas most dependent on the the OECD and, now, the International Monetary Fund. public sector have an opportunity to put forward proposals We have received more than 60,000 representations for measures that would support their economic growth. from the public as to how to go about deficit reduction The regional growth fund has been established to meet and many of their suggestions are being put into effect. those proposals. To date, we have received no proposals and no suggestions from the official Opposition, who created the deficit in James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): the first place. This builds on what the Chief Secretary has just said. Does he agree that what we need with the regional Mr Jones: I thank my right hon. Friend for his growth fund is a much more focused regional policy, response. With the country set to pay £43 billion in rather than the waste that came from the previous interest in 2010-11, I am reassured that the general Government and their one-size-fits-all regional policy? public have been willing to contribute to the tough decisions required of this Government to turn our Danny Alexander: I would agree with that, although I economy around. Has he received any helpful advice am not going to go over the litany of spending by from the Labour party, past or present, other than that regional development agencies. Having a regional growth from Tony Blair? fund that is able to respond to bids from communities, along with a much more devolved set of arrangements, Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend is absolutely right through local enterprise partnerships, which require about debt interest; this country is now paying £120 million local authorities and local businesses to work together a day in debt interest. Debt interest under the previous on what is best for their areas, is a much more dynamic Government was forecast to rise to £60 billion a year, approach, and it is likely better to meet the needs of making it one of the largest items of Government those areas. expenditure. He talks about suggestions from Members of Parliament. The new leader of the Labour party Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): What account will said: the Chief Secretary take of last week’s joint statement by the leaders of the devolved Administrations in Wales, “I think whoever is the Labour leader will, by the time of the Scotland and Northern Ireland? They said that the spending review, have to show that they have an alternative plan”. proposed cuts in the comprehensive spending review are So the clock is ticking. “too fast and too deep”, that Glyn Davies: The Chancellor attended the IMF conference at the weekend. Can he share with us what “Front loading the cuts into the next two years is…the wrong approach” our international partners are saying about the coalition Government’s efforts to deal with the deficit? and that a failure to promote growth will damage the private sector? Will he now listen to those voices, which Mr Osborne: As I am sure my hon. Friend is aware, do not just argue for the public sector, but argue that the the IMF’s article IV study of the United Kingdom said: cuts that he proposes will damage private sector growth and private sector industry? “The government’s strong and credible multi-year fiscal deficit reduction plan is essential to ensure debt sustainability.” Danny Alexander: First, may I welcome the right hon. That is in marked contrast to last year’s IMF report on Gentleman to his new role, congratulate him on his the UK. At the IMF annual meetings, which I attended appointment and wish him luck with it? The question last weekend, it was made clear that concerns about he asks is important: what is the impact on the devolved sovereign debt issues in Europe were one of the greatest Administrations? As he knows, the budget for devolved threats to the world recovery. Of course, the decisions Administrations is set by the Barnett formula, which that we have taken in this House have moved Britain reflects the decisions we make for Departments within out of the financial danger zone and helped to deal with the UK, and so it falls out as a consequence of the that potential threat. spending review decisions. Of course our decision to protect the national health service—something that the Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): On reducing the budget Labour party was not willing to do—will reflect well on deficit and the issue of fairness, how does the Chancellor the devolved Administrations’ settlement. If the right square the fact that his local authority has had a cut of hon. Gentleman wishes to enter credibly into this debate, only £600,000 to its education budget with the fact that he and his colleagues should make some credible proposals Halton, the 30th most deprived authority, has had a cut of their own as to how they would tackle the deficit. of more than £1.2 million? How is that fair? 139 Oral Answers12 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 140

Mr Osborne: Decisions on local government allocations absolutely clear about this: the Chancellor says that the are properly a matter for the Secretary of State for deficit was wrong and that his emergency Budget measures Communities and Local Government, but I make the were unavoidable, but I believe that it is the other way observation that we face a series of tough decisions round. The deficit was unavoidable if we were to avoid because of the economic mess that the Labour party financial meltdown, and his Budget proposals were left us. To date, it is living in complete denial: there is entirely wrong—wrong because they would, according not one single suggestion from one single Labour Member to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, have two and a half on how to reduce the budget deficit, or even achieve the times the adverse effect on the poorest as on the richest £44 billion of cuts on which Labour fought the last in our society, and wrong because he is seeking to cut election. public spending before there is any momentum for private sector spending in our economy. Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): Can the Chancellor confirm or deny reports in the weekend Mr Osborne: Quite frankly, being in opposition involves press that he has given the Governor of the Bank of choices, just as being in government does. The right England the green light to increase quantitative easing, hon. Gentleman talks about the Budget; there is a to deal with the policy that the Chancellor is pursuing simple choice before the House today, which is whether on the deficit? we proceed with a graduate tax. Lord Browne’s report says that such a tax would add £3 billion to the deficit Mr Osborne: What I said at the weekend was that I and would not produce savings until 2041. That is a real would follow the exact same procedure that my predecessor, choice on the deficit before us today. The right hon. the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West Gentleman is the shadow Chancellor and opposes a (Mr Darling), pursued when he was Chancellor of the graduate tax; is he going to assert his authority over Exchequer. The fact that that is regarded as something Opposition tax policy? of a surprise by the Labour party shows how far it has departed from the centre ground of British politics. Debt Management (Bank of England)

Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con): Our net 5. Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): contribution to the EU is, amazingly, projected to double Whether he has assessed the merits of returning in this Parliament from £4.7 billion to £9.5 billion a responsibility for debt management to the Bank of year. Does my right hon. Friend agree with me and England. [16484] many of my Bury St Edmunds constituents that if we are to cut the deficit, we need to cut our spending on the The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark EU? Hoban): The current institutional framework separates operational responsibility for debt and monetary policy Mr Osborne: It is good to see my hon. Friend. I make by the establishment of a debt management agency. the observation that the situation is, unfortunately, yet This properly reflects the importance that we attach to another legacy of the previous Government. [Interruption.] having a clear institutional divide between responsibility Well, Labour Members obviously do not know the for setting interest rates and for issuing Government history: Tony Blair gave away our Budget rebate in debt. The Government have no plans to return responsibility return for the French reforming the common agricultural for debt management to the Bank of England. policy. So far as I have noticed, that deal has not held, and our contributions are rapidly rising. We have made Jacob Rees-Mogg: With the return of banking strong arguments at the European level for similar supervision to the Bank of England, I wonder whether budget restraints in the EU to those that member states it is worth considering giving the Bank of England its are having to impose domestically. Of course, that will debt management responsibilities back. An active be our negotiating stance as we go into the new budget participant in markets may well prove to be a better review period. regulator than one that approaches regulation from a more intellectual sense. Alan Johnson (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab): Will the timing of the spending cuts that are to Mr Hoban: The Bank of England engages in market be announced next week be exactly as laid out in June’s activities on a day-to-day basis, but before 1997 the emergency Budget, and will the Chancellor confirm same institutional separation existed, with the Chancellor that the aim continues to be that the deficit will be setting interest rates and the Bank responsible for debt eliminated by 2015? management. The separation of responsibilities improves transparency and confidence in debt management and Mr Osborne: First, I should welcome the right hon. helps to keep the cost of Government debt as low as Gentleman to his new role on behalf of all Government possible. My hon. Friend will appreciate how important Members. I did the job for five years, and I hope that he that is, given the size of the deficit that we inherited does it for even longer than I did. The answer to his from Labour. question is yes. Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): But is Alan Johnson: Well, the reason I ask is that there was it not clear that, as my hon. Friend the Member for some speculation at the weekend, when the Energy Edmonton (Mr Love) was saying, the raising of the Secretary suggested, in a rather unfortunate yachting spectre of a return to quantitative easing signalled by analogy, that he would not be “lashed to the mast” with the Chancellor last week to the Bank of England is a a particular set of spending numbers. That is important, clear sign that the anti-growth strategy pursued by the because from my vast experience in this job I am Government risks a major slow-down in our economy? 141 Oral Answers12 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 142

Will the Minister take responsibility and stop playing concerns, including the location of the OBR and whether ideological games with fiscal policy in the hope that the veto over the chairmanship of the Select Committee monetary policy will miraculously pick up all the pieces? will be in the Bill.

Mr Hoban: I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his new Mr Osborne: The short answer to my hon. Friend’s position. He has been out of Parliament for the past questions is yes. The OBR will move out of the Treasury—in five years and he should perhaps take this opportunity the period immediately after the general election, that to reflect on the record of his predecessors and the was the quickest way to establish it—to a permanent deficit that they racked up in Government. Is he departing home. The choice of location will be for the permanent from the practice that the previous Chancellor of the chair of the OBR who, I believe, will make a statement Exchequer followed when it came to quantitative easing? on that later today. I think the veto given to the Treasury Committee is the first of its kind in this Parliament, and Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con): I am will be enshrined in legislation. a strong supporter of quantitative easing as a form of management of the economy, but are Treasury Ministers Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): The Chancellor aware that some hedge funds are making large profits has announced two new appointments to the budget by arbitraging between short and long interest rates responsibility committee today. In line with the Treasury when central banks give advance notice of their intention Committee’s recommendation, will he extend its veto to to intervene in foreign markets? those two appointments, as well as to the position of the chair? Will he invite the OBR to comment, as the Mr Hoban: As my hon. Friend will be aware, the Select Committee envisages, on the fiscal mandate? implementation of any policy on quantitative easing is Mr Osborne: My answer to the right hon. Gentleman the responsibility of the Bank of England, and it will is yes and no—yes to the first part of the question. I take into account those factors. listened very carefully to what the Treasury Committee said about the two other members of the budget Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): Does the Minister responsibility committee, and I propose that it should welcome the fact that the efforts of the Debt Management indeed have a veto over those two appointments, which Office mean that the average duration of debt in the were made on the recommendation of a panel that UK is around 13 years, several years longer than any included Robert Chote. I made the suggested appointments, other country in Europe? It is one of the many reasons but it will be for the Treasury Committee presumably to why the UK is not in the position of Ireland or Greece. hold hearings and hopefully give its approval. I do not propose to follow the second path that the Mr Hoban: The hon. Lady, who follows these matters right hon. Gentleman suggested. If the OBR begins quite carefully, will reflect that before the election long-term commenting on the fiscal mandate, it intrudes on what yields on Government debt in the UK were moved in is a legitimate matter of debate in the House between line with those in countries such as Portugal, Greece elected representatives who have strong views on this. I and Spain. After the election, the margin between UK want to do everything I can to preserve the independence gilts and the German Bund has narrowed rather than of the OBR, not just for this Government but for future widened, as has been the case with other European Governments as well. bond rates. Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): Would the Office for Budget Responsibility Chancellor just confirm that the veto on the other two members of the OBR will function in exactly the same 7. Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): What steps he is way as it would for the chairman? Would he also taking to ensure the independence of the Office for confirm that, in line with our recommendations, the Budget Responsibility. [16486] OBR will be permitted at the request of Opposition parties at election time to examine their fiscal policies as The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): well? The independence of the Office for Budget Responsibility is central to its credibility. With the approval of the Mr Osborne: What I would say to my hon. Friend in Treasury Committee, I have appointed Mr Robert Chote response to his first point is yes, the procedure that I to be its new chair. Today I am also appointing the propose is exactly the same, unless he wants to volunteer distinguished economist Stephen Nickell and the some alternative method. On his second point, this is experienced forecaster Graham Parker to serve alongside genuinely a matter that should be debated in the House Mr Chote as permanent members of the budget in a non-partisan way, because it does not affect just responsibility committee. I am also publishing new this Parliament. There is a question of whether we want terms of reference that safeguard the independence of the OBR to be able to cost Opposition policies at the the OBR, and copies are available in the Vote Office. I time of a general election. I propose to have discussions have asked the OBR to publish its autumn forecasts on with Opposition party leaders about whether that is the the economy and the public finances on Monday appropriate thing to do, and it would be a legitimate 29 November. matter for the House to debate and decide. Departmental Spending Challenge Henry Smith: I thank my right hon. Friend for his answer. I warmly welcome the creation of the OBR, at 9. Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): last, as an independent economic forecaster. I know What recent representations he has received on his that the Treasury Committee has raised a number of Department’s spending challenge. [16488] 143 Oral Answers12 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 144

The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Justine by the hon. Gentleman’s party. The bottom line is that Greening): Many, many people have got involved with we want to ensure that we support business. His party the spending challenge review, and on the spending was against the package of corporation tax reductions challenge website we received more than 100,000 suggestions that we brought forward in the Budget, which will from members of the public, including more than 60,000 support companies across this country. We also got rid from public sector workers. We also had correspondence of his party’s job tax. across government, including 10,000 e-mails and letters to the Treasury alone. I know that many other Departments Whips Offices received similar correspondence. Finally, Ministers have been out and about across the country, and have had 10. Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): What meetings in their Ministries with a range of stakeholders recent discussions he has had with the Minister for the to make sure that we make the right decisions. Cabinet Office on the cost to the public purse of the Government Whips Office and the Opposition Whips Rehman Chishti: Is there still time for new members Office. [16489] of the shadow Cabinet to contribute to the spending challenge, given that they should have £44 billion of The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): ideas to hand? I have had discussions with my right hon. Friend on the Justine Greening: No, it is not too late for members of overall Budget for the Cabinet Office as part of the the shadow Cabinet to get involved with this process. spending review. As my hon. Friends might expect, I am They had an opportunity last night, as you remember keen to ensure maximum value for money from the Mr Speaker, on the Finance (No. 2) Bill, but they failed Government Whips Office. When it comes to the Opposition to take it. I think that that may be because they do not Whips Office, that is an area of public spending where I have the capacity or the courage to come up with their am prepared to tolerate inefficiency and poor leadership. own suggestions. Mr Bone: My right hon. Friend will be aware that Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): Can the Minister during this Parliament, the additional salaries paid to confirm well-sourced reports that she has received Treasury Whips will be more than £6 million. As we now have a advice to delay some of next year’s proposed spending Backbench Business Committee and will soon have a cuts? How, if that is true, does it square with the harsh House Committee, would that not be an area for cutting? cuts rhetoric that we have heard from Treasury Ministers After all, we are all in it together. since the election? Will she take this opportunity to confirm that it is her decision, and that of the Front Mr Osborne: Unfortunately, the Parliamentary Secretary Benchers, to stick with the £23 billion of cuts that we to the Treasury, the Government Chief Whip, is not know they are planning for next year? here to listen to that question, but as Ministers in the Government Whips have already taken a 5% pay cut Justine Greening: We are clear about what we need to and had their salaries frozen during the Parliament, so do to sort out the last Labour Government’s terrible they have already shown some restraint. If my hon. legacy—a Government, incidentally, who left Friend wants to catch the ear of the Chief Whip in the unemployment higher than when they took office. We Aye Lobby tonight, he can do so. will stick to our economic plan, which, as we have heard, the IMF and the OECD think is the right one, Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): Has the Government and it is the plan that stands alone, because the Labour Whips Office had cause to contact the Secretary of party simply has no alternative. State for Energy and Climate Change, following his Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): Among her comments last week? Has having the Liberal Democrats responses to the spending challenge, will the Minister as part of the Government increased the costs of the bring into line the Local Government (Early Termination Government Whips Office? of Employment) (Discretionary Compensation) Regulations 2006, which have enabled four former Wiltshire council Mr Osborne: The presence of the Liberal Democrats bosses to share remuneration of almost £2 million in in the coalition means that two parties are working their final 12 months in office? together to sort out a problem that one party created. Justine Greening: We are looking at a range of ways Tax System we can ensure that we get the most value from every pound of taxpayers’ money, and we will stop at nothing 11. Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con): to make sure that we get there in the end. We are going What steps his Department is taking to simplify the tax through a difficult process with many difficult decisions, system. [16490] but we aim to ensure that all of them are tough, but still fair. The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): Does the Minister agree Gauke): The Government are committed to simplifying with her very good friend Sir Philip Green that one of the tax system. To help to achieve that, the Government the ways of spending money effectively would be for the have established the independent Office of Tax Government to delay their payments to small business? Simplification. Business and tax professionals have also consistently pointed to the way in which tax policy is Justine Greening: Sir Philip Green is one of those developed, legislated and implemented as a contributing people I was talking about in my first answer: somebody factor to overall complexity. We published a discussion who has got involved trying to come up with constructive document alongside the June Budget setting out proposals suggestions on how we can tackle the fiscal deficit left for a new approach to tax policy making. 145 Oral Answers12 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 146

Mike Freer: Will the Minister advise on the progress VAT (Small Businesses) of the interim reports for the Office of Tax Simplification, specifically on IR35 and tax reliefs? 13. Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con): What recent representations he has received on the time taken Mr Gauke: The OTS is looking at two areas. One is by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to provide reliefs and exemptions, and although the timing of the VAT numbers to new small businesses. [16492] publication is to be finalised and that is a matter for the OTS, there will be an interim report, I believe in November, The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David on this area. With regard to the reform of small businesses, Gauke): Treasury Ministers receive representations on a including IR35, the OTS intends to report in time for range of subjects from organisations and individuals the Chancellor to take into account its views in preparation about aspects of service delivery. for the Budget. Simon Kirby: I thank the Minister. A number of Tax System businesses in Brighton have waited a very long time to receive their VAT numbers. Does the Minister agree 12. Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): What steps he is that the prevention of fraud is as important as providing taking to make the tax system fairer. [16491] a prompt service?

The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend is right. There is a need to Gauke): The Government believe that the tax system balance the desire for a quick service with ensuring that should give more support to those on low to middle we do not allow fraudulent registrations. Between April incomes and reward the efforts of those who choose to and September this year, 57.4% of applications were work. At the June Budget, we announced a £1,000 processed within the target 10 calendar days. There was increase in the personal allowance for 2011-12, which an improvement in the rate during August and September, will remove 880,000 of the lowest-income taxpayers when 71.4% and 79.7% of applications were processed from tax altogether. Our longer-term goal is to raise the within the 10 days. allowance to £10,000, with real-terms steps in that direction every year. Economic Growth

Lorely Burt: I am grateful for that answer. May I ask 14. Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con): What assessment my hon. Friend what the coalition Government can do he has made of the effect on GDP of proposals to for my constituent Kath Hemmings and many like her? increase the level of economic growth in the June 2010 Kath is a single mum who has raised her daughter Budget. [16493] Victoria with no support and has at the same time worked hard and built her career. She is on the higher The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Justine rate of tax by just a few pounds. Many children in Greening): A key part of the emergency Budget was to Victoria’s class have two parents who earn under the make sure that we rebalanced our economy on to a top rate and have kept their benefit. What can we do to more sustainable, private-led footing with economic make things fairer for Kath, Victoria and many like growth taking place. As I said, we introduced a range of them? measures to support business, but we did not stop at that; we now have a second Finance Bill that brings Mr Gauke: I understand the concern that my hon. forward further measures. The Office for Budget Friend raises. The situation that we face is that there Responsibility’s analysis following the emergency Budget will be difficult decisions to get the deficit down—a showed that it is forecasting a sustained recovery in point that Government Members appreciate. The difficulty economic output, with employment growing year on is that looking at the issue on a household basis would year and unemployment falling year on year. mean creating a complex and large bureaucracy. We have come up with a proposal that will ensure that the Karen Lumley: What would have happened in smaller, poorest households are protected and will continue to mixed-economy areas such as my constituency of Redditch receive child benefit. if the Government had refused to take the challenge as they have and face up to the difficult decisions? Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) Justine Greening: Such areas would have faced a jobs (SNP): I welcome the Chief Secretary to the Treasury’s tax with higher national insurance, higher corporation weekend announcement about a rural fuel derogation, tax rates, lower economic confidence and, quite possibly, which will make the tax system infinitely fairer in the higher interest rates. islands and is a victory for common sense. I first raised the issue a few years ago. Does the hon. Gentleman feel Child Benefit that time was wasted by the previous Labour Government, who sat on their hands and did nothing for the islands? 15. Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): When will the fuel derogation come into being? Will What representations he has received on the new the Minister acknowledge that, despite that welcome arrangements for child benefit which will apply to one step, we in the islands will still be paying more tax per and two-parent families. [16494] litre than those on the mainland? The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Mr Gauke: Was time wasted by the previous Gauke): The Chancellor has received a number of Government? Yes. What will the timing be? Negotiations representations on the planned changes to child benefit. need to be had with Europe, and there will be further It is not the Government’s practice to provide details of announcements in due course. all such representations. 147 Oral Answers12 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 148

Karl Turner: Does the Minister agree with my constituent Andrew Bridgen: I thank the Minister for that answer, Christopher Sumpton, who points out that it is grossly but as he is well aware, Leicestershire is historically one unfair for a single mother earning £44,000 a year and of the lowest-funded parts of the UK for education, the supporting three children to lose her child benefit, given police and the fire services. Can he assure me that that that the next-door neighbours earning £80,000 will not? historically low funding settlement will be taken into Will Treasury Benchers explain why the Government account in the comprehensive spending review? are attacking women in this savage way? Danny Alexander: The hon. Gentleman will have to Mr Gauke: As I said earlier, we do not currently have wait until the statement on 20 October to hear the the capability to examine the situation on a household details of our spending decisions, but as I have made basis, but we do need to make difficult decisions. If the clear in answer to earlier questions, of course we consider Opposition want to oppose each and every cut, including it important to understand and manage the regional in the child benefit that is given to some of the wealthiest impact of spending cuts. We have established a regional in society, they can take that position, but we are growth fund, the details of which will be in the spending prepared to take those tough decisions. review statement, which will enable areas such as his to win support for projects that help economic growth in Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): difficult times. Does my hon. Friend think that the Opposition believe Economic Growth it would be fairer to tax the lower-paid and give the tax revenue to the higher-paid? 17. Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): Mr Gauke: That appears to be their solution given What assessment he has made of the effect on GDP of that, as I understand it, they still advocate the increase proposals to increase the level of economic growth in in the national insurance contributions that we are the June 2010 Budget. [16496] going to counter by raising thresholds. If the Opposition wish to take that position, so be it. The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Justine Greening): As we discussed earlier, the emergency Budget supported businesses in a variety of ways. We know that Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): I am afraid we have to rebalance our economy by getting an unwieldy that the answers that the Minister is giving are simply public sector back into a sustainable, private sector-led not good enough. Can he explain the logic behind the economy that generates the tax revenues needed to fund child benefit proposal, if there is any? Why is the our public services sustainably. We will never go back to assessment not being made on household income rather the profligacy of the Labour party. than just on the highest earner’s income? Will it apply to a cohabiting high earner or just to married couples, and Harriett Baldwin: Businesses in West Worcestershire why will there be a phenomenally high marginal deduction welcome the cuts in corporation tax that were announced rate? Is it not true that this is just another “back of a fag in the June 2010 Budget. Does the Minister agree that packet” policy that the Government have not thought the most basic economics primer would say that, if they through at all? are possible, lower tax rates for business can lead to higher tax revenues from business? Mr Speaker: There were four questions there, but one answer will do. Justine Greening: My hon. Friend is right, and I know that she had wide experience in business before Mr Gauke: I congratulate the hon. Lady on her entering the House. Opposition Front Benchers really appointment to her shadow ministerial position, but I ought to listen to the CBI, the Institute of Directors, the point out what her former colleague Alan Milburn has Federation of Small Businesses, the British Chambers said: of Commerce and a range of other representatives from “In times of plenty, giving child benefit to high earners is a across industry who welcome the measures that the luxury the country can afford; in times of want I don’t think it is. Government have brought forward to support business. We would be wrong to oppose it. I can’t see it having an adverse As long as the Opposition put their head in the sand impact on social mobility.” they will remain what they are right now, which is I know Alan Milburn belongs to the centre ground, but incredible. the Opposition really should not abandon it. Tax Collection Tax Take (East Midlands) 18. Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): How much tax revenue each enforcement and compliance 16. Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): officer in Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs collected What recent estimate he has made of the proportion of on average in the last financial year. [16497] the central Government tax take from residents of the east midlands which is spent on that region. [16495] The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke): HMRC’s enforcement and compliance officers The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): engage in a wide range of activities, from dealing with We cannot accurately disaggregate tax revenue by individual relatively low-value errors made by small businesses regions, but we publish regionally disaggregated public and individuals to addressing significant risks among spending tables each year. Total identifiable expenditure the largest corporate bodies, as well as countering criminal in the east midlands was £35.4 billion in 2009-10. attacks on the tax and duty system. For that reason, 149 Oral Answers12 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 150

HMRC does not collect statistics on the average revenue Mr Osborne: It will be my great good fortune to visit collected by an enforcement or compliance officer. Results Yorkshire later this week to hand out the Yorkshire Post of HMRC’s compliance activity were published in its awards in Leeds. My hon. Friend makes a good point. 2009 autumn performance report. We have introduced a regional tax cut for the first time in British history, which means that businesses that are Katy Clark: Given that we have already lost more set up outside the south-east of England will benefit than 9,000 enforcement and compliance officers, and I from a national insurance holiday on the first few am told that each officer raises more than £600,000 employees that they bring on board. We have also got after their salary, does the Exchequer Secretary not rid of Labour’s job-destroying jobs tax, which, as we think that he should get those statistics and start recruiting now read in the memoirs of various senior members of people rather than sacking them? the Labour Government, they tried to dissuade the previous Prime Minister from introducing. Mr Gauke: As I said earlier, my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary made an announcement a couple of T3. [16507] John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): As confirmed weeks or so ago of about £900 million-worth of investment by the OBR and Treasury officials to the Treasury in HMRC over the spending review period. It is important Committee, the Budget is predicated on having in this to tackle compliance, and the Government, perhaps Parliament an extra 700,000 EU migrants net living in more than our predecessors, will be determined to do this country. Where will they live and work? How will that. they be spread across the United Kingdom? Economic Growth Mr Osborne: The Office for Budget Responsibility is using the statistics from the Office for National Statistics. 19. Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): What assessment Of course, one of the decisions that the previous he has made of the effect on GDP of proposals to Government made was to allow countries to join the increase the level of economic growth in the June 2010 European Union without any transitional controls Budget. [16498] whatsoever on their citizens’ movement to the United Kingdom. We are living with the consequence of that The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Justine decision. Greening): The Government are continuing to do whatever they can to support business. As I said in answer to T2. [16506] Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) previous questions, Richard Lambert from the (Con): Many small businesses in Staffordshire Moorlands Confederation of British Industry described our emergency tell me that they have enough to deal with without the Budget as a intricacies and complications of the tax system. Will the “first important step on the long journey back to economic Minister provide more information to the House about health.” how the work of the Office of Tax Simplification will It is a step that the Labour party unfortunately does not help those small businesses? want to take with us. The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Bob Stewart: How do we ensure that everyone benefits Gauke): My hon. Friend is right to raise the concerns of from economic growth, particularly pensioners? With business. We have a complicated tax system and the interest rates so low, many pensioners in Beckenham are longest tax code in the world. The Office of Tax rapidly eating into their life savings. Simplification will make a very useful contribution to assisting the Government to identify unnecessary complexity Justine Greening: My hon. Friend raises an important and finding areas of reform. point. Although the emergency Budget was very much about supporting business and creating again the conditions T4. [16508] Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) for employment, he is right to raise pensions. That is (Lab/Co-op): Many pensioners in my constituency are why another key part of it, which perhaps got less concerned about the indexation of pensions changing attention than it otherwise would, was our managing to from the retail prices index to the consumer prices re-establish the earnings link with the state pension. index. A pensioner who currently receives a pension of The Labour party failed to do that in 13 years—it £10,000 will be more than £800 worse off by 2016. promised but, as ever, failed to deliver. Does the Minister think that it is fair for pensioners to be hit in that way? Topical Questions Mr Osborne: The Government have introduced a T1. [16505] Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): If triple lock on the basic state pension, which means that he will make a statement on his departmental it rises by earnings, or by CPI or RPI—whichever is responsibilities. higher. The previous Government had 13 years to do that, and they did not. The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): The core purpose of the Treasury is to ensure economic T5. [16509] Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) stability, promote growth and employment, reform the (Con): In my constituency, more than 7,000 jobs are banking system and restore some sanity to the public directly linked to east midlands airport. I believe that it finances. has been shown that there would be no environmental or fiscal gain from the introduction of a per plane tax, Julian Smith: What message does my right hon. Friend as flights would simply divert to other European hubs. think the national insurance holiday and the abolition Is the Economic Secretary willing to reconsider any of Labour’s jobs tax sends to those thinking of setting plans for a per plane tax, and will she meet me as a up their own firm in God’s own county? matter of urgency to discuss that? 151 Oral Answers12 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 152

The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Justine T7. [16511] Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): In the Budget Greening): I will be very happy to meet my hon. Friend. statement, the Chancellor of the Exchequer mentioned The coalition agreement mentions the desire to reform the need to rebalance the economy towards export-led air passenger duty and move towards a per plane duty. growth, which is particularly important for In the intervening period, I have had a range of meetings, constituencies such as mine in the north-west. Will he including with airport owners, and I would be happy to update the House on the Government’s progress in that add him to my list of people with whom I have discussed respect? that policy. Mr Osborne: I have seen at BAe Warton in my hon. T8. [16512] Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): The Friend’s constituency a very good example of high-skilled Chancellor was a millionaire the day he was born, so he manufacturing. Everything the Government do is designed has not got a clue what it is like to try to raise a family to support a private sector recovery and to rebalance on £40,000 a year—[Interruption.] Do you mind? He our economy, so that not all the growth that takes place cannot hear me. People who earn that much are not the does so in only one corner of the country. super-rich; they are hard-working people who are getting by and getting on. The cuts to child benefit will take about 10% of the income of some of them. By Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): After the row at what definition of fairness does he think robbing 10% the International Monetary Fund summit at the weekend, from hard-working people is a fair deal for such has the Chancellor concluded that the renminbi is families? undervalued, or that the US is under-focused on consumption-led domestic growth? Mr Osborne: I will make one observation if the hon. Gentleman wants to lay into my background: I went to Mr Osborne: I have concluded that it is very sensible the same school as the deputy leader of the Labour for the serving Chancellor of the Exchequer of the day party. not to comment on the value of currencies. On child benefit, we have had to take some difficult decisions. It is quite extraordinary that the Labour T10. [16514] Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) party finds itself opposing our decision. Yes, it was a (LD): When the Chancellor and the Chief Secretary tough decision, but it was fair in the context of the consider how to address the huge budget deficit they decisions that we must take. The fact that Alan Milburn inherited from Labour, will they not lose sight of the today warned Labour Members not to oppose the importance of investing in affordable housing, measure—[Interruption.] Of course, the sensible part specifically to ensure that homes meet the decent of the Labour party is no longer on the Front Bench. homes standard? The fact that Alan Milburn, whom Labour appointed as its social mobility tsar, is warning them is something Danny Alexander: My hon. Friend makes a very to which Labour Members should pay attention. important point. We will make decisions on spending and announce them on 20 October in the spending T6. [16510] Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) review statement. The point he makes is important, and (Con): Although my constituents accept the need to I very much take it to heart. tackle Labour’s legacy, many of them have large families and are concerned about the changes in child benefit. Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): During Will the Minister consider transitional arrangements to a visit by the Deputy Prime Minister to Northern help families to adjust? Ireland last week, he stated, “I will go away with colleagues Mr Gauke: We do have to take tough decisions. The in the coalition Government to look at the possible full implementation proposals will be announced next impact of the deficit reduction plan on capital expenditure week, but this is one of those occasions when we must in Northern Ireland.” Can the Chancellor confirm that make tough decisions, because we must face up to the that has been done and what steps will be taken in enormous deficit. The Government are prepared to response? deal with it. Mr Osborne: As the hon. Gentleman may know, I T9. [16513] Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): have met the First Minister and Deputy First Minister Will the Chief Secretary to the Treasury welcome the of Northern Ireland and I am looking at the points that backing given by Olympic champion Jessica Ennis to they raised with me. If he will forgive me, I will make an the U-mix centre, which is a sports and leisure facility in announcement on 20 October. Sheffield designed by Urban Mixtures, an inspiring group of young people who represent the real big society at work? Funding has been allocated for the Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): Does project under the myplace programme, but has been the Minister think that we will stand a greater chance of frozen pending the comprehensive spending review. Will having fairer taxation now that Finance Bills are published he share my hope that that funding will be unfrozen and and properly consulted on, and will that stop appallingly allocated shortly? unfair policies such as the abolition of the 10p tax rate ever being introduced again? The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that Mr Gauke: We set out in June our plans for making point, and as usual he puts the case for his constituency tax policy and ensuring greater consultation, so that very eloquently. Decisions on spending matters, including there is a clearer process when we develop policies. That spending that was frozen under the project re-approvals has been widely welcomed by business and the tax process, will be announced on or after the date of the professions, and we hope to build on the progress that spending review. we have made so far. 153 Oral Answers12 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 154

Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): Mr Osborne: I agree with my hon. Friend. As we are With all this talk of fairness, why is it that no one has just a couple of minutes from the statement on higher mentioned VAT? A 14.5% increase in real terms in the education, it would be interesting to hear from the VAT rate has been attacked by what I thought were Opposition about whether they really will pursue this Conservative-voting business people and families in my graduate tax, which the shadow Chancellor has passionately constituency, and will punish those at the lower end of opposed, including in the open letter he wrote to his the income spectrum. Why is such a high rate of VAT party leader just a couple of weeks ago. being pursued by this Government? Mr Osborne: We are having to take decisions to close Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab): the highest budget deficit in the G20. I listened to what The Government failed to conduct an equality impact the previous Chancellor of the Exchequer said recently assessment on the June 2010 Budget. Can the Chief on “The Andrew Marr Show”. He was asked: Secretary reassure me that they will not make the same “we now read from Peter Mandelson’s book that you were quite mistake again, and will the Government ensure that keen on the idea of VAT going up”. they assess the—probably disproportionate—impact on Alistair Darling replied: women of the comprehensive spending review? “Well yeah, obviously…It would have allowed you to have done you know a lot more to take down the deficit…and would Danny Alexander: The answer is yes. Departments have…ameliorated some of the worst effects of reductions”. will be carrying out these assessments on their spending For once, the previous Chancellor of the Exchequer decisions, and I, myself, held a round-table meeting in had the right idea—[Interruption.] That is because he the Treasury with a number of different organisations was overruled by the then Prime Minister. involved in the equalities area to ensure that we were considering all the relevant issues in the run-up to Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): May I bring to the publishing the spending review. Minister’s attention the case of my constituent, Mr Peter Gorse? Mr Gorse ran a healthy small business until the Royal Bank of Scotland forced him into bankruptcy so Mr Speaker: Order. There is quite a lot of chuntering that it could repossess his assets. Will the Minister agree from sedentary positions, but I want to hear both the to meet me and my constituent so that his case can be questions and the answers. heard fairly by that taxpayer-owned bank and to ensure that cases such as his are fairly considered as we reform Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con): Since the the banking system? formation of a Government who are determined to deal with the deficit, market interest rates have in some cases The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark halved. What impact does the Chancellor think that has Hoban): The responsibility for operational matters at had on both our GDP growth and the interest payments RBS rests with its board. The Treasury’s engagement that we have to make on Government debt? with RBS is through United Kingdom Financial Investments Ltd, which acts as a shareholder. My hon. Friend will be aware that in July we published a Green Mr Osborne: First, the fall has helped to reduce Paper setting out some approaches to improving the interest payments, and secondly it has helped many access that small and other businesses have to finance, companies during the recovery. It is striking how our and we will make further announcements on that shortly. market interest rates have fallen since taking the steps that we announced in the Budget. That is not the case in Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): What representations some other countries in Europe that had similar market have Treasury Ministers had from advice organisations interest rates to us at the time of the general election. such as citizens advice bureaux which fear that their budgets from local government will be cut at a time Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): Does the Chancellor when they will be advising the most vulnerable people agree that market interest rates were falling before the on their finances and welfare benefits? Will the Treasury election? The fall is not due to the Government’s policies— team join me in paying tribute to the citizens advice they were falling before. bureaux for the work that they do, and commit to giving them extra funding for that purpose? Mr Osborne: I advise the hon. Lady to look at the Danny Alexander: I join the hon. Gentleman in paying market interest rates of Spain and the United Kingdom, tribute to the work of the citizens advice bureaux. In which were the same at the time of the general election. constituencies across the country they play an invaluable In Spain, they have hardly fallen at all, but they are role in advising people and helping them through difficult 1% lower in the United Kingdom. That is a real boost times. We will make spending announcements on to businesses. 20 October, but I have had conversations with the citizens advice bureaux about some of the issues affecting Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Is the Chancellor them. Those issues will also affect other organisations aware that the Treasury is the only large Department in the community and voluntary sector, and the that does not have a chief scientific adviser? Does that Government take that very seriously. say anything about its interest in and understanding of Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) science, and will he appoint a chief scientific adviser? (Con): Does the Chancellor share my view that an economic policy that does not engage with cutting the Mr Osborne: I assure my hon. Friend that I have deficit at all, and which has £30 billion of additional received plenty of advice—public and private—from spending requirements, is no economic policy? the nation’s scientists. 155 12 OCTOBER 2010 Higher Education and Student 156 Finance Higher Education and Student Finance socially useful but modestly paid or unpaid work, which may include time spent bringing up a family. At present, the graduate contribution acts too much like a poll tax, 3.31 pm and is not fair. The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and I therefore asked Lord Browne specifically to look at Skills (Vince Cable) rose— progressive solutions to the problem, and he has come up with persuasive proposals to deal with it. He suggests Mr Speaker: Order. There is a great deal of interest in a £21,000 graduate income threshold before any payment the Secretary of State’s statement, and I appeal to is made—as against £15,000 at present—and that it be Members leaving the Chamber to do so quickly and linked to average earnings. He also suggests that a real quietly, because I want to hear the Secretary of State— rate of interest should be paid, but only over that [Interruption.] I am always grateful to you, Mr Pound, threshold. The effect is striking: 30% of graduates would for your attempted assistance. pay less from their lifetime earnings than they do under the existing system. The top third of graduate earners Vince Cable: With permission, Mr Speaker, I would would pay more than twice as much as the lowest third. like to make a statement on the future funding of higher That is fair and progressive. The Government broadly education and student finance, in the light of the report endorse that approach, and we will examine the details published today by Lord Browne’s independent inquiry. of implementation. The principle of needs-blind admission Lord Browne was asked to undertake his review in to universities must remain central. November last year. The review was set up by the The cost of university education to individuals and Labour Government on a cross-party basis, and that is the state reflects living costs as well as tuition costs. The how we wish to proceed. I and the Minister for Universities Browne report makes some constructive suggestions. and Science, the right hon. Member for Havant We will make detailed proposals that will not only make (Mr Willetts), thank Lord Browne and his review panel. it attractive for students from families of modest means The Government endorse the main thrust of the report, to go to university, but be fair and affordable, including but we are open to suggestions from inside and outside by exempting the poorest students from graduate the House over the next few weeks before making contributions for some or all of their studies. specific recommendations to Parliament, with a view to Lord Browne considers alternatives, including a graduate implementing the changes for students entering higher tax, which I believe the new leader of the Labour party education in autumn 2012. More detail will be contained favours. [Interruption.] I have consistently argued for a in next week’s spending review on the funding implications, progressive contribution, which we are now delivering. but as a strategic direction the Government believe that Some key features of a progressive graduate contribution the report is on the right lines. would incorporate the best features of a graduate tax. It Browne acknowledges that would be collected through the pay packet at a rate of “the current funding and finance systems for higher education are 9p in the pound above the £21,000 threshold and, unsustainable and need urgent reform”. combined with a real interest rate, as Browne recommends, The issue is how, and it has to be framed in terms of it would be progressive and related to ability to pay. how the higher education sector contributes to the However, Browne identifies serious problems with what deficit reduction programme. There is also, I think, he calls a “pure” graduate tax. He concludes that the consensus that there should be no up-front tuition fees proposal is simply unworkable. for students, which would seriously deter students from If there are any lingering doubts among those on the low and middle-income families, and this Government Opposition Benches, I strongly recommend that they strongly oppose up-front tuition fees. Indeed, we share read the open letter from the new shadow Chancellor to Lord Browne’s conclusion that we should extend exemption the new Labour leader three weeks ago, which reads: from up-front tuition fees to part-time students—currently “Oh, and for goodness’ sake, don’t pursue a graduate tax. We 40% of the student population—who have been unfairly should be proud of our brave and correct decision to introduce discriminated against hitherto. tuition fees. Students don’t pay them, graduates do, when they’re earning more than £15,000 a year, at very low rates, stopped from The question, then, is how much the graduate their pay just like”—[Interruption.] contributions for tuition should be. We are considering a level of £7,000. Many universities and colleges may Mr Speaker: Order. I apologise for interrupting the well decide to charge less, because there is clearly scope Secretary of State, but I want to hear every word of his for greater efficiency and innovation in how universities statement, and every Member should want to do the operate—two-year ordinary degrees are one approach. same. Exceptionally, Lord Browne suggests that there should be circumstances under which universities can price Vince Cable: I do believe, moreover, that we need to their courses above this point, but he suggests that this look beyond the graduate population. Some 55% of would be conditional on demonstrating that funds would young people do not go to university. We must not be invested in securing a good social mix with fair perpetuate the idea, encouraged by the pursuit of a access for students from less-privileged backgrounds, misguided 50% participation target, that the only valued and in raising the quality of teaching and learning. We option for an 18-year-old is a three-year academic course will consider this proposal carefully. at university.Vocational training, including apprenticeships, We believe it essential that if the graduate contribution can be just as valuable as a degree, if not more so. is to rise, it should be linked to graduates’ ability to pay. Finally, there is a challenge to us all to promote a On average, graduates earn comfortably more than long-term sustainable future for higher education. This £100,000 over their lifetimes compared with non-graduates, has been a difficult issue for all parties in the House. but not all graduates benefit in this way. Some choose Those on the Opposition Benches have ranged between 157 Higher Education and Student 12 OCTOBER 2010 Higher Education and Student 158 Finance Finance [Vince Cable] £300 million? He says that he is considering a £7,000 basic fee. On 28 April this year, the leader of the Liberal early advocates of a graduate contribution, such as Democrats—now the Deputy Prime Minister—said: the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and “If fees rise to £7,000 a year…within five years some students Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) and the new shadow will be leaving university up to £44,000 in debt. That would be a Chancellor, through to those implacably opposed to disaster. If we have learnt one thing from the economic crisis, it is change and to the current Labour leadership, who have that you can’t build a future on debt.” apparently embraced a graduate tax. The Conservatives So what exactly is the difference—[Interruption.] That initially campaigned against graduate contributions, but was the Deputy Prime Minister’s conclusion. What reversed their position. My own party consistently opposed exactly is the difference between the £7,000 a year fees graduate contributions, but in the current economic that he believed would be a disaster and the £7,000 a climate we accept that the policy is simply no longer year fees that his Business Secretary now proposes? feasible. That is why I intend, on behalf of the coalition, Promises were made by the Business Secretary and the to put specific proposals to the House to implement Deputy Prime Minister at the last election that should radical and progressive reforms of higher education not be lightly thrown away. The trust of politicians is a along the lines of the Browne report. matter not just for the Liberal Democrats but of the integrity of this House as a whole. Mr John Denham (Southampton, Itchen) (Lab): May Is it not true that Lord Browne’s report makes proposals I thank the Business Secretary for his statement and for that would leave many graduates paying off their debts giving me advance notice of it? Is it not the truth that when their own children start university? Is it not true the coalition has decided to put the responsibility for that, while the average graduate today pays off their reducing the deficit on to the personal bank accounts of loan in 11 years, under these proposals the majority of this country’s most ambitious and able young people, students would not throw off the burden of debt for saddling them with debts that many will never pay off, 30 years? Is it not true that the middle-income graduates— when the Government should be opening doors for the teachers, police officers, engineers and middle managers, them to make the most of their ability? who are often the same people losing their child benefit— Labour Members believe that higher education is will pay more than their fair share? They will pay longer important not just for individual graduates but for and pay more interest than the higher earners, who can growth, prosperity, job creation and our ability to succeed pay off their loans more quickly. Is it not true that in a competitive world. That is why, a few years ago, we women will be in debt longer than men and pay more took the tough decision to introduce fees, and it is why interest on their loans? we invited Lord Browne to undertake his inquiry. We Will the Business Secretary be more explicit? Does he should thank him for his work. I welcome the raising of support the ending of the fee cap? A student taking a the threshold, the equitable treatment of part-time students course costing £12,000 per annum will leave with a total and the emphasis on better guidance in schools and debt, including maintenance, of £47,250, compared with improved information on quality. Those were issues on the £32,000 debt that the Business Secretary says is the which we asked Lord Browne to advise, to build on basic one. Can we not all recognise that, in the real work that we had already begun. The £350 increase in world, too many able students will turn their backs on the maintenance grant will of course be offset by the the university and the course best suited to them and be abolition of the £329 bursary for poorest students. In forced to shop around for the cheapest option? Will the the spirit of cross-party co-operation, will the Business Secretary of State accept that the Browne proposals on Secretary promise today to make available to the House access to the most selective universities lack any teeth or and the wider public the economic models used by Lord any strength? Browne? The Secretary of State once advocated a graduate tax It is clear that Lord Browne’s report has been crucially because he believed that it could produce a manifestly shaped by the assumptions that he has had to make fair and progressive system, with those who can most about coalition policy. Will the Secretary of State confirm afford it making the greater contribution. Now, he has that Lord Browne’s report assumes that the teaching been told that he does not support a graduate tax. grant for higher education will be cut by 80%? That Given the promises he and his colleagues made at the would effectively end the public funding of most courses, election, does he not agree that we all have the right to and place the responsibility for paying for higher education demand that any proposals meet the same tests of on to students alone. Will he also confirm that some fairness that he used to support? universities could lose more than 90% of their public funding? Is not the row within the coalition conveniently Vince Cable: May I welcome the right hon. Gentleman obscuring the biggest cuts to a publicly funded university to his new post? He was a much respected Minister in system that we have ever seen? Tough decisions have to the previous Parliament and was regarded as a man of be made to cut the deficit, but even in its plans for considerable integrity, mainly because of his resigning reckless, deep and rapid cuts the coalition is planning from the Blair Government over the Iraq war. Whatever cuts of only 25%, so why is it singling out higher our differences, he will be respected for that decision. education for such a massive and disproportionate cut? I should be interested to find any quotation marks Our competitors around the world are investing in indicating that I have ever advocated a pure graduate higher education because universities are a key driver of tax. In the South Bank university speech, I advocated a growth and new jobs. Why is the coalition turning its progressive graduate contribution. That is what this back on growth? statement is all about. The Business Secretary says that some universities The thrust of the right hon. Gentleman’s comments might charge less than £7,000. Does he accept that an related to deficit reduction—a problem on an enormous average fee of £6,000 would cut university funding by scale that we inherited from him and his colleagues. 159 Higher Education and Student 12 OCTOBER 2010 Higher Education and Student 160 Finance Finance May I remind him that according to the analysis conducted the progressive system with which we are identified, and by the Institute of Fiscal Studies, my Department—the with which the previous Government had no intention one that he shadows—was, under a Labour Government, of proceeding. confronting cuts of 20% to 25%. About 70% of that Finally, let me confront the pledge, the promise, that budget is for higher education. He and his colleagues my colleagues and I—[Interruption.] Yes, I am confronting have already said that they do not accept the cuts in that issue: the issue of the pledge that my colleagues regional development agencies and they do not accept and I undertook to implement. In the current circumstances, cuts in science. They were therefore planning to make we cannot implement it. I fully accept—[Interruption.] massive cuts in the university teaching budget. It is just sheer hypocrisy to stand up here and tell us—[Interruption.] Mr Speaker: Order. The Secretary of State must be heard. Members have challenged him. He is dealing Mr Speaker: Order. I apologise for interrupting the with the point according to his own lights, and the Secretary of State. I know that feelings are running high House must hear him. on this subject—[Interruption.] Order. The more noise there is, however, the slower progress will be. Very large Vince Cable: As I was saying, I fully accept that, but numbers of Members wish to participate. I want to help let me explain. I believe that Members in all parts of the the House, but the House has to be prepared to help House will share this experience. Like many of them, I itself. was the first person in my family to stay at school beyond the age of 15. I went to university free of Vince Cable: I repeat that Labour Members, who charge, with no fees or maintenance costs to pay. They landed the country in this enormous deficit problem, were paid for me by the state. have to begin to spell out what it is that they would cut. Like many Members, I wanted to ensure that my It would include universities; let us be under absolutely children’s and my grandchildren’s generations enjoyed no doubt about that. that free system of university education. In an ideal The right hon. Gentleman had the extraordinary world, that is what we would do, but we are not in an nerve to talk about building a future on debt. I and ideal world. We are in a world in which we have inherited many Members will recall my warning the former Prime a massive financial mess. We have come to terms with Minister five, six or seven years ago about the dangerous reality, and it is time that the right hon. Gentleman and escalation of private debt in this country, which has led his friends did the same. to British households having more debt in relation to their income than those in any other country in the Several hon. Members rose— world. This is what we inherited. He and his colleagues Mr Speaker: Order. First, I remind right hon. and introduced a system of tuition fee funding that is built hon. Members that questions must be about the policy on debt. They introduced a system of repayment over of the Government: what it is, or what it should be. 25 years; we are extending that, potentially, to 30 years. Secondly, in view of the very large number of Members What is the fundamental objection in terms of personal seeking to catch my eye, I underline the importance of debt? The right hon. Gentleman has given no convincing each Member’s asking a single short supplementary explanation of what alternative he is recommending. question—and, of course, I remind the Secretary of I think we need to get to the bottom of this. The right State of the merits of pithy replies. hon. Gentleman did get around to talking abut the graduate tax. Is that now the policy of the Labour Mr David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con): Opposition, or is it not? We know that the shadow I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement and commend Chancellor is opposed to it, and that his leader is in the Browne report, which is a really constructive piece favour of it. The right hon. Gentleman is sitting of work. uncomfortably in the middle. What is his position? We need world-class teaching in our universities and The right hon. Gentleman says that the policy we need world-class research in our universities, so recommended by the Browne report, which we have reform must come, and we accept what the Secretary of endorsed in outline, is hard on middle earners. Let us State has said. Does he agree that the quality of student confront that proposition. We inherited a system that experience of teaching, tutorials and careers advice effectively amounted to a poll tax. That was the way in needs to be improved, and that we also need more which the student tuition fee system operated. We required innovative part-time courses? Browne to produce proposals for a progressive formulation. Such a progressive contribution would not have come Vince Cable: I very much agree; indeed, one of the about if this Government had not intervened and asked incentives provided by this new system will be encouraging Browne to produce proposals. That is the commitment part-time courses, and therefore part-time learners, who that we have made to middle earners, many of whom have been discriminated against in the past. It will also will not have to pay the full rate of tax. bring pressure to bear on universities to improve their teaching performance, which is highly variable. In the Let me read the right hon. Gentleman a comment university system, promotion tends to be earned through made by the independent Institute of Fiscal Studies. research rather than teaching quality. Universities will Opposition Members frequently quote its views, as they now have to attract students, so they will have to provide did in the aftermath of the Budget earlier this year. The quality teaching throughout the system. That is one of IFS said that the big advantages of the reforms we are undertaking. “those in the bottom 30% of lifetime earnings would actually pay back less than under the current system” Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): The leader of the —that is, the system that the right hon. Gentleman Liberal Democrats said on 28 April that increasing operated. Only the highest-earning 30% of graduates student fees to £7,000 would be “a disaster”. If it was a would pay back the full amount of their loans. That is disaster on 28 April why is it not a disaster now? 161 Higher Education and Student 12 OCTOBER 2010 Higher Education and Student 162 Finance Finance Vince Cable: I have already explained the necessity, Vince Cable: I am not going to announce a week for economic reasons, of pressing ahead with these ahead of the spending review the details of what it will reforms. They have great advantages in themselves, but entail, which is why I could not answer the specific they also help us to address the massive deficit left by questions the right hon. Member for Southampton, the previous Government, in which the right hon. Itchen (Mr Denham) asked about percentages. Of course, Gentleman served throughout. as a result of the very difficult cuts we are going to have to make, there will be a replacement of Government Nick Boles (Grantham and Stamford) (Con): It was a funding for teaching with graduate contributions. That great hero, I believe, of the right hon. Gentleman who is very clear, and it was at the heart of the Browne said: report as well as of Government policy, but the upshot “When the facts change, I change my mind.” will be that there will be adequate funding for universities When the facts change, does not the new Leader of the as a whole so that they are in a position to maintain Opposition bury his head in the sand? their current standards of excellence. As the hon. Gentleman implies, they are world class and we must keep them Mr Speaker: I apologise to the hon. Gentleman for that way. having to deal with this matter in this way, but questions must be about the policy of the Government and, Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) unfortunately, that one was not. (LD): As my right hon. Friend listens to the responses to the Browne report and develops the Government’s Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): Does final proposals in the weeks ahead, can he tell me how the right hon. Gentleman accept that if higher fees to he will ensure that our Government do not do anything attend the best universities deter poor students from to discourage young people from estates such as the going to them, the most able students will not go to the Tabard Gardens or the Four Squares in my constituency, best universities and Britain will be the poorer for it? and millions of others, from going to university because of the risk of having significant debt at the beginning of Vince Cable: Yes, the hon. Gentleman is right. There their working lives? is a real issue here, and it relates to the Browne review’s proposals for variable fees, which I made very clear we Vince Cable: Yes, indeed. We certainly need to be very are still considering. Let me set out the argument. On conscious of the position of people at the bottom end the one hand we have world-class universities—four of of the social scale, which is why I emphasise the importance the 10 leading universities in the world are in this of a social mix in universities, and of course of middle country and we want to keep it that way—and they are earners too; this is not simply a question of the most making a very strong case for variable fees. On the other deprived communities. Two issues affect the people hand, however, if that were to be accepted large numbers about whom my hon. Friend is concerned. The first is of people from modest backgrounds would be deterred the poverty of their own families, which is why we need by highly priced courses at universities such as Oxford to have generous support, through grant and loan provision, and Cambridge, and we see the psychological impact of for maintenance. The other is the psychological impact that—it is very real. We need to weigh up those two of people being deterred by extremely high fees, which factors. That is why, although I have come to the House potentially some universities would charge if they were with the firm proposal of our support for the £7,000 allowed unlimited permission to do so. That is why we limit, we want to consider further how we might balance are hesitating before accepting that recommendation those two issues in relation to variability of fees. and are considering carefully the very strict conditionality that would have to be attached to any movement on that Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): In welcoming score. the broad thrust of this report, may I say to my right hon. Friend that his two priorities for such public Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Does money as is available should be the protection of excellence the Secretary of State agree that our higher education and of the position of less well-off people who want to sector is one of the most successful in the world and is do courses? probably our single most successful sector, and that that is so not because of the top four or top six universities, Vince Cable: Indeed. Those two considerations are at but because of the 100-plus universities that provide a the heart of the Browne report, and that is one of the fantastic service? We had this blood on the floor when reasons we have gone along with the thrust of its we introduced top-up fees all those years ago, but after recommendations. There are proposals that we still have we did it we could see that the money we raised flowed to make—and which, of course, will depend on the into university salaries and into research. Will he guarantee spending review—in relation to the maintenance package me not only that this money will flow into our universities, of grants and loans, which will, of course, affect the but that he will not cut drastically the universities’ least-advantaged people in society. I cannot give details budgets in a week’s time? on that today, but that central point is clearly uppermost in our policy. Vince Cable: I can certainly guarantee the hon. Gentleman that these sets of proposals will be welcomed Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op): by the university sector; if he reads the response of Conspicuously absent from the Secretary of State’s Universities UK, he will find that it welcomes them. statement was any projection of the amount of increased funding for universities that would accrue from these Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): I welcome the measures. Are they designed to provide extra funding report’s recommendations to extend support to more for the universities, which we need for an advanced part-time students and to raise the threshold to £21,000, industrial economy, or are they designed just to finance both of which would benefit students at the university cuts in public expenditure? of Worcester, which I represent. However, may I urge 163 Higher Education and Student 12 OCTOBER 2010 Higher Education and Student 164 Finance Finance the Secretary of State to ensure, in implementing this Vince Cable: We will certainly look at that suggestion, report, that such universities, which have a strong record but I have not heard any detailed, practical proposals of securing long-term employment for their students from the right hon. Gentleman or anyone else on the after graduation, are encouraged to continue to focus subject. A good many courses at university, particularly on employability? apprenticeships at university level—at skill level and full level—are funded by employers, and I am sure that we Vince Cable: Yes, there is a major problem of would want to see that extended. employability, as unfortunately we have a growing pool of graduate unemployed. At the same time, there is a Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD): I also thank chronic shortage in some subjects, notably science, Lord Browne for his report, and am thankful for the technology, engineering and maths—STEM subjects— influence of the Secretary of State and Liberal Democrats which suggests that the existing system is not giving the in the coalition Government; it has made the report right signals to universities. What we certainly want to rather more progressive than the original commissioners see is much greater attention being given to universities’ might have envisaged when the remit was set. Much of demonstrating their record on employability, performance the attention has been on collection arrangements once and teaching, so that students can make informed choices people graduate, but far more attention needs to be in future. paid to young people much earlier in the graduate Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Will the Secretary of journey, when they are teenagers making their decisions State acknowledge that although the Browne report’s in, say, the deprived parts of Sheffield or Bristol, or proposals address higher education institutions in England, even in the south Wales valleys. Will my right hon. they will have implications for such institutions in Northern Friend undertake to ensure that much more attention is Ireland? They will certainly have implications, by way of given to that stage, so that children from poorer variable fees, for students who would wish to come to backgrounds see that university is for them? courses here. Will he discuss those implications with relevant Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive Vince Cable: Yes, absolutely, and that message fits in and in Scotland, or does he hope by default to impose with the broader direction of Government policy on the policy changes that he has just undertaken on the education. The simple truth is that very large numbers devolved Administrations? of people are being failed by the school system at present. They have to find a second chance, for example Vince Cable: Of course we respect the separate position in further education colleges. That direction of policy— of the different nations of the UK, and I am very happy particularly with the idea of the pupil premium, which to discuss it with the hon. Gentleman. will help people through the school system—is very Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): much part of our thinking, and we intend to carry that What about Scotland? philosophy into the university sector. Vince Cable: The hon. Gentleman asks about Scotland. Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): I was there last week discussing this with university The Secretary of State emphasises the importance of authorities, who told me that the existing model in STEM subjects. What with today’s report, the propositions Scotland is not sustainable and that they may well have that are starting to emerge in relation to the comprehensive to move to a model similar to that in England and spending review, and the impact of changes to overseas Wales. So I think that in Scotland, as elsewhere in the student rules, does he not see that he is leading us UK, these realities will have to be faced. headlong towards massive cuts in STEM provision? Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con): May I welcome Which departments does he want to see closed, and Lord Browne’s report, the Secretary of State’s statement, which does he want to keep open? and his recognition that a graduate tax would be ruinous for this country? Could the right hon. Gentleman reassure Vince Cable: I certainly do not want to see that the House that under his plans, no student will be outcome; we want to see the exact opposite. We want penalised for early repayment of their loan? more investment in STEM subjects. The hon. Gentleman will know that a level of, say, £7,000 would not cover the Vince Cable: It is certainly feasible under the existing full costs of many STEM courses, and the Government system—and it will be in future—for people to pay their will continue to support them through the teaching obligations early, but we need to be very clear that we grant. cannot allow very affluent people to be able to buy their way out of their obligations under a fair graduate Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): I was lucky enough to contribution system. Anybody who has tried to pay go from my outstanding comprehensive school to a their mortgage back early will have discovered that world-leading university, and then took time out of the there is something called a redemption fee to maintain work force to raise my family—a decision that I have the integrity of the system. We need to look at ways of never regretted. Millions of women choose to do the ensuring that there is no mechanism that allows people same. Can the Secretary of State assure the House that to avoid making a fair contribution to universities. there will be provision, when the proposal eventually Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): Can the Secretary comes to Bill stage, for women like me—and, indeed, of State confirm that when we set up the Browne review, men—who choose to take time out to raise their family we asked Lord Browne to look at an employer contribution? and then return to the work force? The Secretary of State said nothing in his statement about the position of employers, despite the fact that Vince Cable: Yes, indeed, and that is a very important they clearly benefit from higher education. Will he take consideration. Of course we want women to have equality. this opportunity to correct that position? The gender gap has got to be closed, and the issue of 165 Higher Education and Student 12 OCTOBER 2010 Higher Education and Student 166 Finance Finance [Vince Cable] the Labour party and we therefore have to make choices that he and his colleagues ducked. taking time out is an important part of that. Of course, during the period that women—or men, in certain Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): Youngpeople circumstances—take out of the labour force to care for in my constituency have some wonderful options on their families, the real interest rate would not accrue. their doorstep. There is Huddersfield university and the expanding Kirklees college, and some local engineering Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): Like the companies are offering apprenticeships. With that in Secretary of State, I was the first person in my family to mind does the Secretary of State wish to revise the go to university. The key thing is that I am not sure that target of 50% of young people going to university, or is I would have gone if I faced the debt that is likely if the he sticking by it? general thrust of Lord Browne’s report is followed, as the Secretary of State said it would be. What reassurance Vince Cable: We do not believe in prescriptive targets. can he give young people from backgrounds like mine The 50% target was a serious mistake, not least because that they will not be unfairly disadvantaged by the it sent the wrong signals to the further education sector reluctance of his Government to invest properly in that it was undervalued and that vocational qualifications higher education? did not have the same status as graduate degrees. We Vince Cable: The Government are going to invest in intend to change that approach fundamentally and higher education. It will be properly funded as a result look at post-16 and post-state education as a whole, of this package. I make the point to the hon. Lady giving vocational and academic education equal status. again—I made it in my statement—that the average university graduate earns cumulatively over a lifetime Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): Does the well over £100,000 more than someone who chooses not Secretary of State agree that implementing Lord Browne’s to go to university.That is a substantial graduate premium. review will lead to the financial collapse of 30 wide We need to communicate to many people in disadvantaged participation universities such as Bolton in my constituency, communities that it is in their interests to pursue higher which has a number of mature students attending it? education. We will make sure through the careers service, Will he ensure that the interests of students such as a proper system of advice and the support that we give those attending Bolton university and others are protected? in maintenance that they have that opportunity. Vince Cable: I think the hon. Lady’s central point is Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): Will it not that it is possible that some universities will be in be a sad day for academic meritocracy if and when able financial difficulty. They already are under the existing students from poor backgrounds are deterred from system, and we are having to consider how universities going to top universities because those universities are in that position will be dealt with. The analogy is with allowed to charge more than other universities in fees to the banking system. If banks collapse, the depositors students? are protected—in other words, the students are protected Vince Cable: Yes, the hon. Gentleman is quite right, so that they can complete their education—but the and for that reason he will recall my comments about management of failed institutions has to change. We the need to be careful about following through the are currently working through a failure regime to deal request of the Russell group universities for unlimited with institutions that find themselves in difficulties. The fees. There are serious problems with that. Of course number that the hon. Lady mentions is almost certainly there are advantages in terms of world-class universities, implausibly high, but there will be some. but we need to be careful about going down that road, and we will reflect further on it. Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): Will the Secretary of State consider carefully how we can prevent students Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab): I strongly from being deterred from undertaking longer courses oppose variable tuition fees and a market in higher such as medicine and pharmacy—very able students in education, and so did the Liberal Democrats. May I tell particular may be put off from those courses—perhaps the Secretary of State today that the Lib Dem website by introducing a three-year cap on fees? still has a six-point timetable for scrapping tuition fees, and it is in a section entitled “What we stand for”. The coalition agreement already includes provision for Liberal Vince Cable: The answer to that question is similar to Democrats to abstain on the issue and not opt out from the one that I gave on the other STEM subjects. Medicine what they stand for. is a costly course, which is why continuing support is needed through the teaching grant from Government to May I ask the Secretary of State this question? Today keep graduate contributions at a moderate and reasonable he has nailed his colours to the mast on variable tuition level, and that is what we shall aim to do. fees and a market in higher education, but what is it to be for other Liberal Democrat Ministers? Is it to be their manifesto and a principled orange line in the sand Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): I was one of or betrayal of their voters and a miserable white flag of 33 Labour Members who voted against the introduction surrender? of fees in 1998. I took that view then, and I have not changed it at all—I do not believe that it is unaffordable Vince Cable: When the Government’s economic policies or unsustainable. May I suggest to the Secretary of have produced the successful outcome that we all expect, State that the Government seriously attack the tax gap, we can return to the question of how universities can be as less than 10% of the tax gap would pay for fees or, supported in a more generous way, but at the moment indeed, a quarter of the amount of tax breaks for the we face a massive financial crisis that we inherited from rich on their savings? 167 Higher Education and Student 12 OCTOBER 2010 Higher Education and Student 168 Finance Finance Vince Cable: I think that the hon. Gentleman will Vince Cable: We already have variable fees as a result have to apply his considerable powers of persuasion to of the system that was brought in under the last his Front-Bench team, because they have not yet caught Government. The difficult issue now is how far to allow up with his ideological journey. variability, particularly for a small group of universities that want much larger fees, and, as I have already said, I Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): Will am very conscious of the problems that that would my right hon. Friend consider a reduced graduate present. contribution for those subjects where we have a real need and where there is a skills gap such as maths, Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) science and engineering? (Con): To ensure that students do not end up with increased amounts of debt from which they then do not Vince Cable: I thank the hon. Lady for her question reap the rewards, what support does the Secretary of but, again, I have answered that in different ways. We State intend to give pupils to ensure that they choose accept that one of the fundamental problems at the the right courses, and that when a course does not moment is the imbalance in the graduate population. necessarily suit, a mechanism is in place to prevent There is a severe shortage of engineers in particular, but them from being kept on it for the purpose of funding in STEM subjects in general. Unfortunately, there is a the university rather than their own education? growing pool of graduate unemployment in other areas, Vince Cable: That is a good question about one of so we must support the STEM subjects, and we will the imperfections of the system at the moment. Many continue to do so through the teaching grant. young people go to universities completely unaware of Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): The Secretary the employment possibilities that arise from their university of State mentioned the advent of real interest rates, but education, and one thing that we hope to ensure through he does not seem to understand that their introduction the information systems that will develop is that people means that a maths teacher on a middle-income salary will know exactly the performance of the universities will ramp up a bigger debt than, for example, an economist and departments that they intend to go to, and the in a multinational company. Is he trying to tell us that in employability that would result from that. I hope that reality injustice is the new fairness? that will avoid the kind of problems that my hon. Friend describes, which are currently very serious indeed. Vince Cable: I know that the hon. Lady is highly Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab): Whatever the economically literate, going back over her history, but I merits or demerits of the Browne review, will the Secretary think that on this particular issue, she has not read the of State admit that not just he or the Deputy Prime report or perhaps not followed it closely enough. Minister but every single Liberal Democrat Member The proposal for real interest rates applies only above has broken a firm pledge that they made to the voters the £21,000 threshold. Some numbers were published less than six months ago? Yes or no? on the front page of The Guardian this morning that probably gave rise to the conclusion that the hon. Lady Vince Cable: As I think I said earlier, the roads to has drawn. Those figures are wrong, and the Institute Westminster are covered with the skid marks of different for Fiscal Studies, which was quoted, has disowned political parties changing direction on this issue, not them. It is clear from the analysis that the structure is least those on the Opposition Benches. I would say this progressive, but not in the way that she described. at the present stage: the two parties in the coalition are now very much agreed on the way forward. When we Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): For many mature students, look opposite, we see two fundamentally different the most cost-effective way to pursue a university degree approaches to higher education—the existing system is to do so as close as possible to their own home. Will favoured by the shadow Chancellor, and a new system my right hon. Friend encourage universities to collaborate of graduate taxes favoured by their leader. much more closely with the further education sector to Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): We are all use FE campuses to help them deliver higher education agreed on the need to ensure that the very best people degrees? go into our public services where perhaps salaries are Vince Cable: That is a helpful intervention, and I somewhat lower. With those graduates now potentially completely agree. We certainly wish to see the university facing largely inflated and increased debts, what assurances sector evolve in that direction more flexibly, providing can we have that the very best graduates will be supported more genuine choice, including two-year degrees, and in going into our public services under these proposals? portable qualifications between universities. The model Vince Cable: Anybody going into relatively low-paid that the hon. Gentleman described is very much the employment, whether in a vocational approach to public model of the future. I used to teach in a Scottish service or in other ways, will be protected both by the university where that was the norm, and that is a form £21,000 threshold and the system of variable interest of good practice that we could adopt here. rates. Many, many people in low-paid occupations will not be required to pay off any accumulated debt. It will Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): A number of be written off at the end of the period as a result of the Members have referred to the most regressive part of progressive element built into the proposals. the report on variable fees, although it promotes as a positive the proposal that universities should compete Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): As has been on price. Will the Secretary of State give us his reassurance said, every single Lib Dem MP signed the pledge—and that he will look at that again to ensure that students appeared in a photograph—to vote against any fees choose the course best matched to their intellect and increase. The question is: what will they choose—power ability, not their bank balance? or principle? 169 Higher Education and Student 12 OCTOBER 2010 Higher Education and Student 170 Finance Finance Vince Cable: The Opposition do themselves no favours Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): In his remarks, simply drawing attention to the fact that they themselves the Secretary of State made reference to the pledge that are hopelessly divided on the issue and have no answer he and some of his colleagues apparently signed. I have to the issue of how higher education would be funded. not seen it. Could he tell us what it says? Will he place a copy of it in the House of Commons Library, so that Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): Yesterday, hon. Members can study it more carefully and perhaps the Prime Minister said that coalition politics involved give it a wider audience? compromise, and he was absolutely right. However, will the Secretary of State accept that there has been compromise Vince Cable: The sense of humour coming from by many people who now accept that in the current Opposition Members is becoming a little bit tired even economic climate it is no longer possible to abolish for those among their own ranks. If we want to play tuition fees at their current rate? Does he also accept silly games, I am afraid that I will constantly have to go that increasing fees to more than twice the level that back to them and ask how, if they do not want a system they are at is a compromise that some people simply of graduate contributions of the kind that we are cannot and will not accept? recommending, they would fund the system, given the Vince Cable: I know that the hon. Gentleman has massive cuts that they would have to make if they were strong feelings on the subject and we have debated it. still in government clearing up the mess that they created. The first part of his question posed the problem correctly. The idea of abolishing tuition fees or even freezing Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): I particularly them at their present level is simply not feasible, and I welcome Lord Browne’s proposals about part-time students. think that he acknowledges that. We must work towards My constituency is home to the Open university and I a level; I specified £7,000 on behalf of the Government, am well aware that part-time students are currently at a which we think is the only way in future in which disadvantage because they have to pay up-front fees universities can be properly funded to carry out the and that the part-time sector was hit badly by the functions that he and all of us want to see them perform previous Government’s decision on equivalent and lower at world-class level. qualifications. I draw my right hon. Friend’s attention to comments this morning from the vice-chancellor of Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): The only thing that has the Open university. He urges the Government to seize changed since the Secretary of State and his colleagues this historic moment and, once and for all, level the put their skid marks on the student declaration before playing field between full-time and part-time students. the general election is the scale and speed of the cuts that the Liberal Democrats have signed up to and are Vince Cable: My hon. Friend is quite right. More as a supporting the Tory party in carrying out. Children result of negligence than intention, the last Government from many middle-income families will be turned from did terrible damage to the Open university and Birkbeck. going to university as a result of these changes. If the We are very conscious of that problem and of the need changes come about, will the Secretary of State give an to encourage part-timers and treat them on the same undertaking that any future changes will come back to basis as full-timers. He is right to point out that this the Floor of the House, as they have to now, and that morning there was a very positive endorsement of the they will not be able to be slipped through by some Browne report and its approach from the heads of future Secretary of State who wants to increase fees those two institutions. even further and deter even more students? Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): Vince Cable: I think that the hon. Gentleman came to The House will know that the National Union of Students the House the same year that I did. Before we get any will be holding a demonstration on Wednesday more righteous indignation from Labour Members, I 10 November. Will the Business Secretary have the should say to him that he may remember campaigning courage to come with me, face student leaders and on a manifesto that promised to abolish top-up fees but explain why he has betrayed the promise that he made did absolutely nothing of the kind when the Government just a few weeks ago? were returned. Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) (Con): Will the Vince Cable: I am in constant touch with the National Secretary of State examine the international evidence Union of Students. We have a very good dialogue with that shows that countries with higher fees and a decent its representatives. They have made suggestions, some loan system to support them have higher participation of which are helpful and some of which involve very from the lowest-income quartile socio-economic group? substantial reductions in the amount of student I am thinking of the US, which has 50% participation maintenance support, to keep fees down to a level that from the lowest-income quartile, and Australia, which they would prefer. We are continuing the dialogue. We has 30%. That compares with 17% in this country under welcome it, and it is good natured. We disagree on this the previous Government. particular point. Vince Cable: My hon. Friend is absolutely right and Mr Sam Gyimah (East Surrey) (Con): Will the Secretary she is right to emphasise the fact that the approach that of State confirm that the current system, in which we are recommending is evidence-based. Certainly she students incur debt that they have to pay back when is right about the combination of graduate contributions, they finish, and do not have any advice or support in which are progressive, and proper support in the form choosing the right courses or understanding their of maintenance for students from deprived backgrounds. employability when they finish them, is significantly In that way, we get high quality and social mobility as worse than what is being proposed today, which is more well. support and advice? 171 Higher Education and Student 12 OCTOBER 2010 Higher Education and Student 172 Finance Finance Vince Cable: We have covered this point several times, Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): I made a pledge to but it is worth reinforcing. Simply introducing a higher students in my area that I would vote against an increase level of contributions, albeit a fairer one, will not in in tuition fees, and I will stick to that pledge. Further to itself produce good outcomes unless students are properly the question asked by the hon. Member for Foyle informed about the advantages and disadvantages of (Mark Durkan), has the Secretary of State assessed the going to different institutions. That is a key parallel implications for the devolved Administrations? The component of the policy that we are adopting. implication for Wales could involve a sum as great as £140 million. Has he also discussed the matter with Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): Has the Secretary relevant Ministers? of State given any thought at all to the impact of these policies on Wales? I am thinking in particular of Barnett Vince Cable: We have certainly discussed the matter consequentials. with relevant Ministers, and we can produce a formal analysis of what the policy will mean for different parts Vince Cable: The Chancellor will announce his wider of the UK. That is a perfectly legitimate matter to proposals on public spending, but as far as I know there pursue. is no intention to change the Barnett formula.

Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): In many Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): I still support university towns, students play an important role in the the eventual abolition of all domestic tuition fees, although local economy. Will the Secretary of State outline his that is possibly more than six years off now. However, proposals for how to support student living costs? will my right hon. Friend confirm clearly whether he intends less well-off students to pay less while at university Vince Cable: As I have indicated, student living costs than they did under the Labour Government, and less and the maintenance to pay for them will be subject to a well-off graduates to pay a smaller proportion of their series of separate announcements. Once the spending wages in tuition fee repayments? review is announced, we will know how much it is possible to provide in the form of grants and maintenance Vince Cable: That is factually correct and has been loans. It is worth pointing out the base that we start endorsed this morning by the Institute for Fiscal Studies. from, which is that the current system of support for My statement was originally going to say that 20% of maintenance is probably the most generous in the world. graduates would pay less than they do at the moment, As the hon. Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry) pointed but I was fortified by discovering from the IFS’s out a few moments ago, it is quite possible that we could commentary that the percentage is actually 30%. Almost move to a more sensible system whereby many students one in three graduates will pay less than they do at the study in their home town. moment under the scheme that the Labour Government introduced. Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab): Are these proposed funding arrangements Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): based on the current number of students attending Earlier, the Secretary of State used the term “hypocrisy”. undergraduate courses or on the inevitably reduced As my hon. Friends the Members for Glasgow Central number who will attend due to very high fees? If fewer (Anas Sarwar) and for Leicester West (Liz Kendall) students attend university, does the Secretary of State have highlighted, it is hypocrisy that he and every single expect that there will be still fewer students paying even one of his Lib Dem colleagues signed the National higher fees in future, with fewer universities existing to Union of Students election pledge just five months ago. supply their courses? My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) has asked what was in that pledge, so it will be Vince Cable: That question rather disregards past useful for us to remind ourselves. The pledge said: experience. There was a great deal of pessimism about “I pledge to vote against any increase in fees in the next the consequences of the system that the previous parliament”. Government introduced. In the first year, there was Will the Secretary of State confirm that he and all his indeed a fall in applications, but applications subsequently Lib Dem colleagues will break the personal promises continued to rise. On the basis of our own historical that they made to their local constituencies? experience and the experiences of other countries, we have no reason to believe that that pattern will not be repeated. Vince Cable: I signed that pledge with my colleagues, and I have explained the reasons why I did so. It was a Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I congratulate stand from a commitment to try to keep universities my right hon. Friend on his courageous statement. Is free, which is what I enjoyed. I have explained, however, not one of the great advantages of the coalition Government that in the current financial situation, which is truly that Members on the Government Benches can disagree appalling and which we inherited, all commitments and and reach a better policy? Some coalition Members pledges will have to be re-examined from first principles. might vote the other way, but the Government will continue. Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): I commend the Secretary of State for making his statement. Vince Cable: We can disagree, but I think that we Does he agree that the contribution made by graduates actually agree to a remarkable extent. However, there is is not only economic and that it relates to social capital? a coalition agreement, and under its terms my colleagues They provide positive role models in society and make a who feel that our policy does not meet their expectations contribution back into the community. The way we will can abstain. achieve that is through the Finance (No. 2) Bill. 173 Higher Education and Student 12 OCTOBER 2010 Higher Education and Student 174 Finance Finance Vince Cable: I think, if I understand the question hope that Opposition Members will become a little correctly, that the hon. Gentleman is making the point more serious about the country’s financial problems. that there are high social as well as private returns from higher education. That is one of the reasons why the Mr Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): I congratulate Government continue to support it. the Secretary of State on his statement and Lord Browne on his work. As the Secretary of State works on his Several hon. Members rose— proposals on encouraging lower-income students who might never have thought that university was for them Mr Speaker: Order. I am keen to accommodate some to go, will he consider the work of organisations such as more colleagues, but brevity is now of the essence. Aimhigher, which is based at the university of Winchester? It has an excellent track record in getting such students Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): At the beginning through to higher education. of his statement, the Secretary of State commended my right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen Vince Cable: We definitely need to learn from that (Mr Denham) for his integrity in resigning from the experience. Most of the things that we have discussed previous Administration. Given that the Secretary of today are essentially about money, but getting into State has now told the House that he will not honour higher education is about not only money, but his pledge, will he show similar integrity? encouragement, support and mentoring. The scheme that my hon. Friend has mentioned is certainly one Vince Cable: I was completely sincere, and I commend from which we can learn. the decision that the right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) took. I hope that he will maintain Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Is the that tradition of integrity by explaining how the Labour Secretary of State telling the House that he did not Opposition intend to finance higher education. understand that the United Kingdom was in dire financial straits when he signed the pledge five months ago? Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con): Although the Browne report was commissioned by the previous Government, Vince Cable: Of course we realised that the financial it rightly received cross-party support in recognising position of the country was serious. We must now make how difficult the subject is. Is the Secretary of State as very difficult choices on the back of that, which I am saddened as I am that, following the Labour leadership sure is understood as well in Northern Ireland as it is election, that cross-party consensus seems to have broken everywhere else in the UK. I am sure that the hon. down? It is not working in the national interest. Gentleman’s party, which shares in government in Northern Ireland, accepts that extremely difficult decisions on Vince Cable: I genuinely hope, even at this late hour, higher education need to be made there as elsewhere. that that consensus has not broken down. The right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen was ambiguous in his approach to graduate tax; he referred to it, but he John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): Like did not commend it. It may be that that is part of a the Secretary of State, I signed the pledge, which, as I journey—a rather short one—back to some form of remember, calls for a fairer system. I therefore congratulate consensus on higher education. There have been occasions him on lobbying Lord Browne into producing a report when the parties in this House contributed greatly to that will lead to a fairer system—the system will be long-term economic thinking. On the pension age and more progressive and part-time tuition fees will be the age of retirement, for example, we came together on scrapped. However, that does not mean that the system very difficult decisions. It has been a struggle to get all is fair enough. Will the Secretary of State put me in three parties to face up to the realities of the costs of touch with his private office, so that we can look at the higher education, but I have not given up on the Opposition. nuances of some of the modelling of the net present values? Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): The Secretary of State has said that before May he did not consider Vince Cable: My hon. Friend asks me to share the that a huge increase in tuition fees was needed or modelling with hon. Members. I am improvising, but I desirable for the long-term funding of our universities do not see any problem with that. There is probably an and students. The only thing that appears to have intellectual property issue, but in the public interest, we changed in his thinking is his belief that the deficit should of course share the analysis. has to be wiped out very quickly. Why are two or three whole generations of students being asked Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): What will be the disproportionately to pay for that deficit? Is he not effect of the proposals on the funding of universities mixing up the long term, which is what the Browne such as Bolton, which has widened participation by report was supposed to be about, and the short-term attracting poorer and part-time students, especially if issues relating to how we overcome the deficit? they feel that they must charge less than the £7,000 that he suggests they may charge? Vince Cable: I know that the hon. Lady did not mean this, but it is often believed that fees are paid by students Vince Cable: I do not know the full details of the as they study, but they are not. We are talking about a financial position of the university of Bolton, but I graduate contribution that extends for a considerable would have thought that it could draw two sources of period and that will relate to the ability to pay. She strength from our approach. First, our approach encourages seems to be minimising the substantial financial problem part-time students by making university more financially that the Government have inherited, which is severe. I attractive for them. Secondly, Bolton can choose to 175 Higher Education and Student 12 OCTOBER 2010 Higher Education and Student 176 Finance Finance attract students by offering a lower graduate contribution, colleges in their home towns. If he really expects every which it may well succeed in doing. young person in the Rhondda to aspire only to go to a university in Glamorgan, he will be letting down future Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): What steps are the Government generations. I want to ensure that there is no disincentive taking to encourage the development of a greater for rich or poor kids to go on the right course for them, endowment base for university funding, thus eventually whether in England, Wales or wherever. reducing universities’ reliance on taxpayers and students? If the Government are about to dispose of a large Vince Cable: Of course nobody wishes to stop people number of properties and fixed assets, should not the travelling to other communities in pursuit of the best proceeds be used for long-term investment rather than course—[Interruption.] I was simply making the point as a one-off boost to Government funds? that for many universities, especially those that absorb people from less privileged backgrounds, the students Vince Cable: I have not referred to endowments, but live locally in their home environment. That is the it is probably fair to mention that there is quite a common practice in London, Glasgow and other big substantial section on them in the Browne report, which cities. It is not true for all, and we do not want a I hope that hon. Members look at. The report says that one-size-fits-all system. We merely want to have more endowments are a potential additional source of finance flexibility and choice, and that is one of the models beyond graduates and the Government. As my hon. available. Friend will know, endowments are a major source of funding in the United States, and they need to be made attractive and encouraged in this country. Obviously, I Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): Over the cannot predict what the Chancellor of the Exchequer past 10 years, we have seen an 83% increase in the will do in his next Budget, but such encouragement number of children from Walthamstow going on to relates in large part to tax treatment. higher education as a result of the previous Government’s work on increasing participation. If we do not see a Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and similar trend under the new Government and these Kirkintilloch East) (Lab): The publication of the Browne proposals, will the Secretary of State commit to coming report and the Government’s response this afternoon back to the House to justify the waste of potential that marks the point of no return in the marketisation of that represents to our country? higher education. May I ask the Secretary of State, who I am told was once a social democrat, whether he is Vince Cable: We certainly regard it as a reasonable happy with letting the market rip in higher education? challenge to ensure that the higher education system takes a larger proportion of people from disadvantaged Vince Cable: Markets are not being allowed to rip—if backgrounds, and I have made that very clear. On most they were, I would not have mentioned a £7,000 level, measures, social mobility declined under the previous we would have simply lifted all restrictions, and there Government. would be no question, as Browne suggested in his report, of extensive conditionality. If the hon. Gentleman Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): Is it the is worried about that problem, why did he participate in Government’s intention to accept the recommendation a Labour Government who introduced variability in to restrict access to student finance on the basis of fees? aptitude, and if so will the Secretary of State consider the view that UCAS points are not always the best Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): Given the indicator of future academic potential? What will he do Government’s determination to link graduate contributions to encourage young people who might show future with ability to pay, will my right hon. Friend ensure that potential, especially those from disadvantaged backgrounds? those with the greatest ability to pay, who can afford to make payments early and therefore choose to avoid progressive interest rates, will still be required to make Vince Cable: There are proposals in the Browne report the greatest contribution? on the reform of what is called the tariff system. We need to look at those carefully, as they are technically Vince Cable: Yes. One of the scandals under the complex and may well have the unintended consequences existing system is that affluent people can take advantage that the hon. Lady has described. However, I am not of loans at subsidised rates and invest the money. That making a recommendation on that point at the moment. has happened on a substantial scale, but it will no longer be attractive to people on very high incomes. Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): The minimum I urge Labour Members to have a careful look at the tariff entry standards, which have just been mentioned, income analysis in the report. The explanation of how include a system for rationing provision based on academic the interest rate relates to work is technical and complicated, ability. What is the assumption of the number of points but even with a system of early repayment—I am sorry that will be needed in the Secretary of State’s current to go into economics jargon—the net present value of modelling of student finance? high earners’ contributions will remain higher than for any other income group. Vince Cable: Those issues are completely unconnected. As I have just said, the Browne report includes Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): The Secretary of State recommendations on the reform of the tariff system, has said many worrying things, but in particular it which we need to examine carefully.Admission to university worried me that he said that it would be better if a is already based substantially on UCAS points and, in higher percentage of students went to universities or that sense, it is highly meritocratic. 177 Higher Education and Student 12 OCTOBER 2010 178 Finance Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): In the Secretary Points of Order of State’s replies to several questions from my hon. Friends, he has acknowledged that if the cap on fees is lifted, we risk creating a situation in which families will 4.50 pm have to sit down with their children and make a decision about the university of their choice on the basis not of Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): their qualifications or ability to learn, but of their On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The question of ability to incur huge levels of debt. If he acknowledges Government policy on elected mayors in 12 of our that, will he reject that free market now—or is that cities, including Birmingham, Coventry, Leeds, Liverpool, another Liberal Democrat principle that has been thrown Manchester and Sheffield, is an important matter for out of the window? those cities. I know, Mr Speaker, that you want Government policy announcements to be made first to this House, Vince Cable: Nobody is suggesting—I have never rather than to the media. Is it in order, therefore, that suggested this—a free market in this area. The same the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and points were made several years ago when we debated Local Government, the hon. Member for Bromley and the fee-based system introduced by the previous Chislehurst (Robert Neill) has announced to the media Government, who accepted that on the balance of the details of how the Government intend to put mayors argument—the case was made initially by the right hon. in place in some of those cities? Should the Government Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr not be making a statement on this matter to the House? Blunkett), who was ahead of his time on this issue, and later by the new shadow Chancellor—the system had to move in that direction. It is a highly constrained market Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her and not a free market environment at all. point of order. I did not have previous notice of it, although I make no complaint about that—she is entirely Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): As a college principal within her rights. The safest thing for me to say is that I over the past few years, I was proud to witness the will look into the matter and revert to her and, if growth in aspiration and widening participation of students necessary, the House when I have completed my inquiries. from all backgrounds in Scunthorpe. One analysis out today suggests that implementing the Browne proposals Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): On a point of order, as they stand will result in 17,500 fewer students going Mr Speaker. May I draw your attention to a very on to university. Does the Secretary of State want fewer disappointing letter that Welsh Members received this university students and fewer universities? week from the Secretary of State for Wales refusing our request to hold a Welsh Grand Committee on the Vince Cable: As I explained earlier, when the previous constitutional implications for Wales of the Parliamentary Government put in place a substantial increase, numbers Voting System and Constituencies Bill? Will you please initially fell before subsequently recovering. As I said in make representations to the Secretary of State to ensure response to earlier questions, it is not the job of the that she understands how strongly Welsh Members feel Government to be prescriptive about numbers. I return about this critical issue? to the point that I made at the outset: there is a danger of looking at universities in isolation. There are many further education options for people post-18, including Mr Speaker: I am not sure that it is for me to make apprenticeships and vocational training. We have to representations, as the hon. Gentleman invites me to treat all those on their merits and give them equal do. However, he has put his concern—indeed, his very status. The number of people going to university is not, clear dissatisfaction—on the record. I trust that it will in itself, a useful measure of anything. have been heard, but whether that is the end of the matter remains to be seen. I think that we will leave it Mr Speaker: Order. I am grateful to the Secretary of there for the time being, but I am grateful to him. State and colleagues for their co-operation. 179 12 OCTOBER 2010 Royal Commission (London) 180

Royal Commission (London) in London is projected to increase by around 585,000, or an average of 30,000 a year between 2011 and 2031. Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order If those trends continue unchallenged and are not properly No. 23) thought through, how likely is it that a child born today in central London whose parents live within the area 4.52 pm bounded by the Circle line will be able to afford to live in the same area 40 years from now? Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): I beg to move, A growing population will also have profound That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision for the implications for our transport needs, with some forecasts establishment of a Royal Commission to consider the future predicting one third of London traffic travelling on challenges facing London in housing, transport, the environment, very congested roads by 2025. Aviation demand is forecast population, equality, the City and the wider economy, and such to more than double by 2030, with a considerable other matters as the Royal Commission considers appropriate; and for connected purposes. increase in pressure on the capacity and performance of London’s airports. As a country, too, we are committed London faces a series of major economic and social to an 80% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions from challenges to its economy and environment, and through 1990 levels by 2050. That has considerable implications the increase in its population, that will have profound for our future energy usage and how we live our lives. In consequences for housing in London, for our transport particular, it raises the challenge of dramatically increasing and energy needs, for businesses, potentially for Londoners’ sustainable energy levels and making buildings across quality of life, and for levels of inequality in London. If the capital vastly more energy efficient, and doing so those challenges and their consequences are thought rapidly, over a comparatively short period. through now—not just by one or two analysts, but by a wider cross section of Londoners—these challenges will It is now a truism that one of the industries of the also offer a series of major opportunities for our great future lies in new green technologies. However, with city. However, if the long-term consequences of those investors looking with considerable interest at new green challenges are ignored or left ill-considered because towns being built in China, Japan and the middle east, more short-term needs dominate, businesses, civil society and with the global renewables market expanding too, a and ordinary Londoners will lose out. radical increase in the pace of sustainable living in There are mayoral and Assembly elections coming up London is not just a sensible environmental option; it is in London, and inevitably, during those contests, there also essential economically to help to create the domestic will be a focus on the future, but the significance and UK and, crucially, London markets for green scale of the challenges that London faces are unlikely to manufacturing, and for advanced engineering businesses get the level of attention they merit in the heat of an and jobs to emerge. London therefore needs transforming election campaign. There will be those who think that into the world’s leading low-carbon capital. A royal London gets too much attention, and that it draws too commission could help to paint the policy choices to much light and focus away from the rest of the UK. I do drive that transformation. not share that view. I have always thought that London, as the most important gateway to wider Britain and as There are, too, long-term challenges to the future of our premier city, warrants more attention, not less. London’s economy, specifically with the rise in economic and political power of the east—there are the fast-growing The Bill argues that the Government should establish economies of China and India in particular, and there a royal commission of those interested in London’s are also countries such as Malaysia, Indonesia and long-term future to consider over the next 18 months Vietnam. Indeed, rising trade between emerging economies, the challenges and policy consequences for those in this cross-border mergers, acquisitions by Indian and Chinese Chamber, Whitehall, City Hall and London’s local companies and moves by developing world businesses councils—challenges that those who come after our to raise capital in each other’s markets is already helping generation of politicians will still have to address. to increase the growth of financial centres in the fastest- Royal commissions have, it is true, been out of fashion growing economies. Frustration with London’s bankers in recent years, but in the past they have considered has become almost a spectator sport in the past two difficult and politically tricky questions, helping to build years, but London’s economic future—indeed, our country’s a consensus for action. Carefully chosen, royal commissions economic future—depends in no small part on retaining have made powerful and important contributions to our premier league status for financial services. A re-embrace debates about big issues, creating the context for a series of the City is essential—a reformed and properly challenged of difficult policy choices. The long-term future of City, of course, but a re-embrace nevertheless. the world’s greatest capital city—the engine room of Britain’s economy, and the beating heart of our political, Finally, London is already a very unequal city. Huge social and cultural life—is surely worthy of such a disparities in wealth exist between places within short commission. distances of one another. The economic, environmental London’s population is expected to rise by almost and population challenges that London faces will either 1.4 million by 2033 to about 9.2 million, which will drive London’s wealthiest and poorest further apart, or, bring not only considerable economic opportunities, properly thought through, help to prevent or address but a range of challenges in terms of demand for London’s poverty and inequality challenges. The hopes housing, further school places, health facilities and jobs. and dreams of Londoners and those who, often Housing supply has not kept pace—and it is not keeping unknowingly, depend on London’s success require the pace now—with demographic or economic trends, leading challenges facing London to be addressed with care and to increased overcrowding and homelessness in London. long-term consistency. I hope that the proposal in my Indeed, in the next 20 years, the number of households Bill, in its small way, will help to do just that. 181 Royal Commission (London)12 OCTOBER 2010 Royal Commission (London) 182

4.59 pm by the current Mayor, Boris Johnson. We have a structure of government that works well, although there were Mr Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) teething problems in the early days after the Mayor and (Con): I support a great deal of the thrust of the the Greater London authority came into play. It works argument that the hon. Member for Harrow West well now, however, and the Mayor—of whatever political (Mr Thomas) has advanced today. He is right to say colour—has an eye to the future of this great capital that London faces significant challenges, but I am not city, which is close not only to my heart but to that of sure that a royal commission, as set out in the Bill, the hon. Gentleman. would be the right way to achieve our goals. Our capital city has faced a significant number of challenges over It is important to raise the profile of London. The many years. Indeed, we could have had this same debate hon. Gentleman raised the issue of inequality, but some 35 years ago in the mid-1970s. No one could deny things have been that way since Dick Whittington walked that there has also been tremendous success, because down Highgate hill some 700 years ago. Indeed, since London has always traditionally been an outward-looking time immemorial London has been seen as a very city. unequal place, and it has always been polarised between I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind words about some of the wealthiest and some of the poorest people. financial services; they were well made. We have all had The hon. Gentleman made a good point, however, concerns about elements of the banking industry, but about opportunities for those who have been accustomed the financial services industry is clearly a world-beating to living in central London, and he asked whether their business, without which the whole of the United children and grandchildren would be able to continue Kingdom—not just London—would suffer. We need to to do so. ensure that the new, transformed landscape for financial I feel that a royal commission is not the right way services will allow London to maintain its competitive forward. I think that we can achieve these goals within advantage, not least because, as the hon. Gentleman the current construct of governance, with the Mayor has rightly said, some 25 million Indians and Chinese and active borough leaders playing their part in ensuring are being added to the ranks of the global middle class that London’s pre-eminence is maintained not only in every single year. Culturally, they have a higher propensity this country but as a global capital. to save, and they will be the future customers and clients Question put and agreed to. for financial services in the decades to come. Ordered, In relation to the proposal for a royal commission, however, it is fair to say that we have had a mayoralty in That Mr Gareth Thomas, Meg Hillier, John McDonnell, London for the past 10 years. The hon. Gentleman Mike Gapes, Mr Andrew Love, Heidi Alexander, Jim might not like the colour of the current Mayor, but Dowd, Stephen Timms and Malcolm Wicks present the there has been a Labour Mayor for four fifths of that Bill. time. I want to defend Ken Livingstone, who had an eye Mr Gareth Thomas accordingly presented the Bill. towards the future, not least in regard to ensuring that the relationship between London and the key financial Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on centres—not only in Asia but in Brazil and Russia—should Friday 17 June, and to be printed (Bill 76). be maintained. A lot of that work has been continued 183 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 184 Constituencies Bill Parliamentary Voting System and this evening? This is a constitutional Bill of vital importance, Constituencies Bill (Programme) (No. 2) so why should we not be able to talk for as long as we want on the issues today? Motion made, and Question proposed, That the following provisions shall apply to the Parliamentary Mr Harper: Given the previous Government’s record Voting System and Constituencies Bill, in addition to those of the on this matter, I would have thought that my hon. Order of 6 September 2010: Friend would recognise that we are allowing extra time 1. Proceedings in Committee of the whole House shall be today to take account of the fact that we have just had a taken on each of the days as shown in the following Table and in rightly lengthy and well attended statement. We granted the order so shown. extra time so that that statement did not unduly eat into 2. The proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) the time available for debating this Bill. As I said, I be brought to a conclusion at the time shown in the third column would have thought that my hon. Friend, given his of the Table. concern for Parliament, would have welcomed the progress made. We may not have gone as far as he would have Time for conclusion wished, but I think that even he would recognise that we of Day Proceedings proceedings have gone some way further than the previous Administration did. I see him nodding his assent. First day Clause 1 11.00 pm Second day Schedule 1, Clauses 2 and 3, 11.00 pm. Mr Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) Schedules 2 to 4, Clause 4, (Con): I accept, and give credit to party managers for Schedule 5, Clauses 5 and 6 ensuring, that we have a certain protection of time up to Third day Clause 7, Schedule 6, 11.00 pm. 11 pm today. However, does the Minister understand Clauses 8 and 9 our concern that later in our consideration—certainly Fourth day Clauses 10 to 13, 9.00 pm. for the third and fourth day—a significant number of Schedule 7, Clauses 14 to 17 amendments have been tabled, so that we may not have Fifth day New Clauses, New One hour after the enough time to debate the many issues surrounding Schedules, remaining moment of proceedings on the Bill interruption. exempted constituencies, for example, simply because a guillotine will come into force at 11pm or some other —(Jeremy Wright.) specified time? Mr Harper: My hon. Friend makes a perfectly sensible 5.3 pm point. We have allowed the number of days allotted and included some extra time, but we will clearly keep that The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark under review. He will have noticed that on the fourth Harper): I look forward to a rigorous debate on the day—the same day as the comprehensive spending issues in the Bill during its Committee stage. I am review—we have allowed an extra two hours for the grateful to the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee to sit. We have tried to take that into account, Committee—whose Chairman, the hon. Member for and it is also in the interest of Members to balance the Nottingham North (Mr Allen) is in his place—for the time allotted to different parts of the Bill. As I say, report that it published yesterday and for the considerable however, we will keep this under review and see how the amount of work that it put into taking evidence from, debate progresses. I have heard what my hon. Friend among others, the Deputy Prime Minister and myself. says, and I will review progress. Concerns were expressed about the amount of time available to the Committee, but that was clearly not a Mr Field: The Minister says that he is going to keep barrier to its producing a comprehensive report, and I this under review, so would he consider changing this thank all the members of the Committee for their programme motion in order to grant extra days of diligence. debate or put back the end-point? If we vote for the The motion before us allows for five days of debate motion today, will it be set in stone, as reviewing it on the Floor of the House. I know that some Members might not satisfy those of us who are concerned that have expressed concern that there will not be enough elements of the Bill will not get the full consideration time to debate the provisions in the Bill, and we have they need? tried to keep rigid programming to a minimum. As I said on Second Reading, however, we want to ensure—we Mr Harper: My hon. Friend will know that on Second have taken steps to do so in the programme motion—that Reading, when the House voted by a considerable margin the House will be able to debate and vote on the key to support the principle of the Bill, it also supported the issues raised by the Bill. In our view, the programme initial programme motion of 6 September, which set the motion will allow that. number of days for debate. I listened very carefully to the wide-ranging debate on that day and picked out the For this 17-clause Bill, we have proposed five full issues that appeared to be of concern to Members on days of Committee on the Floor of the House and two both sides of the House. That is what has driven this days for Report, which we think adequately recognises second programme motion—to try to ensure that the the importance of the issues. We have had discussions key issues are debated. Today, for example, we are to through the usual channels with the Opposition, who debate the date of the referendum and the question that have not presented any objections to the timetable. it will put, and those issues will be debated. As I said, I listened carefully to the whole of the previous debate, so Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I congratulate I believe we have captured the key issues. The House has my hon. Friend on the progress he is making with this already accepted that five days in Committee is the right Bill, but will he explain why there is closure at 11 o’clock period for consideration of the Bill. 185 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 186 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): The Minister subsequently decided that 5 May next year was the right is being very generous, but bearing in mind that there date. The House has already endorsed the principle of will not be a general election until 2015, surely there is the Bill, and later this afternoon we will conduct a not that much of a rush to get this measure through the line-by-line scrutiny of it. I will be asking Members on House. both sides of the Committee to endorse the date, although I will expect support only from Members on this side. Mr Harper: My hon. Friend is right that the coalition Government are strong and that there will not be an Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman is election until 7 May 2015, as set out in the Fixed-term being very generous and very reasonable. In that spirit Parliaments Bill. The Deputy Prime Minister has made of reasonableness, will he have a word with his unreasonable it clear, however, that we want the referendum to take colleague the Secretary of State for Wales, who is refusing place next year in order to make progress, and we also to allow a Welsh Grand Committee debate on the need to kick off the boundary review, ensuring that it implications for Wales of this major constitutional Bill? reports in good time before the next election. That will We have not been given any explanation for her decision. allow parties across the House to select their candidates. Would it not make sense to allow time for debate in a We have secured a balance between moving at a reasonable separate forum, to enable more time to be made available pace, while also allowing adequate time for proper for debate in the Chamber? parliamentary debate. I think that we have done so. Mr Harper: I simply do not recognise the hon. Mr Walker: But why must we have the referendum in Gentleman’s characterisation of my right hon. Friend May next year? the rather excellent Secretary of State for Wales. He will note that I have been joined in the Chamber by her Mr Harper: We made a commitment in the coalition Under-Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the. Member agreement to have the referendum, and the Government for Clwyd West (Mr Jones), who will be supporting me believe that we should arrange to have it at an early on the Bill. There will be adequate time in the five days opportunity, putting the question to the electors so that that we have provided for debate on how the Bill affects they can decide what voting system they want to use in Wales, in terms of both the boundary changes and the the next election. That is the decision that the Government referendum, and I feel sure that the hon. Gentleman have made, and that is the view with which I will ask the and his Welsh colleagues—including the hon. Member Committee to agree later today. The House has already for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), who is sitting on the agreed with it in principle. Opposition Front Bench—will acquit themselves well in speaking up for Wales during that debate. Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): Clause 1 covers five pages of the amendment paper, whereas The motion specifies the clauses and schedules that clause 9 requires 12 pages. Debate on clause 9, however, are to be debated, and the days on which they are to be will occupy only about a third of the time occupied by debated. Beyond that, it will be for you, Mr Speaker, debate on clause 1. and for Members themselves, to decide how best to use the time. As I have already said in response to interventions, Mr Harper: In my view, it is a question not just of the we have provided extra time on each day to allow for number of pages, but of the substance of the issues statements. On the fourth day, as we know, there will be involved. My hon. Friend will note that the Bill also a significant statement on the spending review, and contains a number of schedules, and, given that I have having assumed that you will allow questions on it to written to him and other Members today, he will know run for a significant period, Mr Speaker, we have provided how we propose to deal with the combination amendment. the necessary extra time. Complicated technical issues occupying many pages I believe that the programme allows the Committee may not raise significant issues, while significant issues adequate time. I believe that it delivers on the promise requiring considerable debate may not occupy many that I made on Second Reading to allow the significant pages. I do not think that the Committee should take a issues to be both debated and voted on, and I hope that simple page-count approach. Members on both sides of the Committee will feel able to support it. Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con): My hon. Friend is making a great presentation. The coalition agreement, 5.14 pm to which most of us agreed and of which most of us are very supportive, contained a commitment to a referendum Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I have to say that the on alternative voting. Will my hon. Friend confirm that Minister is being remarkably blasé about this. I know the date of the referendum was not included in the that he goes blasé when he is trying to be nice, but— agreement, and therefore need not necessarily be part of [Interruption.] Yes, he may be nice—he may have nice this process? moments—but I am afraid that this is not a nice Bill so we will have to deal with him accordingly. Mr Harper: My hon. Friend is right. I am glad that he We are, of course, very grateful for the extended finds my argument compelling, and I am sure that hours. However, I should say that since Mr Speaker he will support the programme motion if Members feel rightly allowed the recent statement to go on for some the need to put it to a vote and test the opinion of the considerable time, as it addressed a matter of importance Committee. to many people, today our deliberations on the Bill will It is true that the coalition agreement committed be briefer than they would have been if there had been both coalition parties in the Government to supporting no statement, and it is likely that that will be the case in a referendum on the voting system, and the Government many further days. 187 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 188 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Mr Harper: So let’s crack on. 5.19 pm

Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman spoke for longer Mr Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con): It than I shall, so he can keep shtum for a moment. is a bit rich that the hon. Gentleman should repeat the same arguments as those that he listened to and swept It would be better if there were no guillotines in the aside when he was in a position to affect the outcome of days provided for debate. As the Minister’s colleague, such a debate. the hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker), asked: I am going to reflect on an irony. Along with every what is the rush? Does this Bill have to be hurried other Member, I participated in the last general election. through because its measures are the glue that hold The Deputy Prime Minister—who at the time was together the coalition—that is what Opposition Members leader of the Liberal Democrats—repeatedly made a suspect, and indeed I think that it is what the hon. point about the “same old politics”. That became a Gentleman suspects as well—or is there some honourable, mantra, and I remember that his poll rating went up decent reason for that? We know the answer, of course. when he referred to it. Yet here we are having the same There is clearly a rush on. The Select Committee old politics announced from the Front Bench under his report has already said that hasty drafting and no direction; this is his Bill. This is a constitutional measure, consultation are the hallmarks. In recent years it has which we all understand is of considerable importance. been extremely unusual for any constitutional reform It affects the constituencies, their nature and the nature Bill to go through this House without any pre-legislative of representation, and the way in which a Member is scrutiny.I have also scoured history to find a constitutional elected to this place. I can think of nothing as Bill of this magnitude and significance that went through constitutionally profound as this—leaving aside European with so few days of consultation on the Floor of the legislation—in all the time that I have been here. In House. The Minister says it is a short Bill, and that may addition, it is intended not to be unwound if it is be the case. won—that is the point behind it—so why are we looking at the same old politics? Mr Harper rose— This motion is a guillotine: that is what it is, straight and simple. We need not waste time debating whether it Chris Bryant: The Minister has talked enough, and is half an hour short here or two hours short there, or he wants us to get on with the business in hand. He said whether we lose part of the debate because of the it is only a short Bill. However, although it may contain importance of various clauses. This should have been only a few clauses, it is 153 pages long, and it affects allowed to roll in this House for as long as it took. That major and significant parts of our constitution. Also, was the constitutional rule almost— he has crafted the motion in a way that allows us remarkably little freedom within each of the days and Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): Convention. between the days. For instance, if we finish the business early on the second day, next Monday, we will not be Mr Shepherd: Yes, it was the convention, but conventions able to proceed straight away with the business for the have been swept away. Again, that was largely done by third day. We will almost certainly need to review that, the Labour Front-Bench teams of the past 13 years, and because the business for the third day is clauses 7, 8 and one does not now hear the word “convention” used in 9 and schedule 6, which include the topic of precisely the House. We have no cause, urgency or reason to how the alternative vote would operate. We must remember accept a guillotine such as this. I must tell the Deputy that the Bill will never come back to the House if the Prime Minister, through my hon. Friend the Member referendum is carried—although I know that the Minister for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), who is a very respected hopes it will not be carried. member of the Conservative party, that I shall not hesitate to vote against the Deputy Prime Minister’s The measures to be discussed on the third day also guillotine motion. give us the new rules for the Boundary Commissions, cutting up the rules that have existed for many years. In 5.21 pm addition, there is the cutting of the number of parliamentary Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): I wish to refer specifically seats and the decision about how we distribute them. to the Welsh Grand Committee issue. It has met to That, too, would never come back to the House for any discuss matters of much less importance than this in the vote hereafter, unless the House of Lords were to change past. As Welsh Members will know, the Secretary of the provisions. It would be wrong to concertina debate State has caused great controversy by changing the on all that into one single day. It is quite possible that arrangements at the drop of a hat. She seems happy to that would mean that there would be perhaps half an do that on matters of less importance, but not on this hour or 40 minutes to discuss the Northern Irish element one. of the Bill, including the distribution of seats. That would not serve Northern Ireland well. The Welsh clause will be debated on day four— 20 October—along with clauses 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, As several Members have made clear, there is an 16 and 17, and schedule 7. That is also the day of the additional point to do with the Secretary of State for comprehensive spending review, so the media in Wales Wales. I have to say that since becoming Secretary of will not be dominated the following day by the details of State she has become far more sour than she was before, the Welsh debate here—it will of course be dominated when she was a rather more pleasant individual. She by the CSR and other matters—and the Welsh public has refused point blank to allow a Welsh Grand Committee will remain uninformed, as they are now, about the to discuss the very significant issues that there are in implications of the Government’s proposals. There is a relation to Wales. clear benefit in having a Welsh Grand Committee sitting, Therefore, although the Minister may be blasé, we so that Welsh Members can have a specific day on are not buying any of this. which to debate issues specific to Wales. 189 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 190 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Hywel Williams] it has to make a judgment on whether the clauses relating to the referendum are sufficiently settled before The Bill has huge implications for Wales—more so the Bill has completed its parliamentary stages and than for any other part of the UK. My former constituency, received Royal Assent. Caernarfon, was the most altered by the boundary I remember repeatedly saying in opposition that we changes put in place for the previous election and my should not amend the constitution in haste and should constituents are still mystified about what happened. not gerrymander the constitution for the convenience of They were completely uninformed about that. the governing party, yet I fear that the guillotine motion [Interruption.] I was re-elected, but for the Arfon reflects that that is exactly what is happening. For that constituency, which is substantially different. I just point reason, if the House divides—I hope that it will not—I out that there is therefore huge value, in terms of public will vote against the guillotine motion. debates and public information for the people of Wales, in having a Welsh Grand Committee debate, and I 5.27 pm cannot see why we cannot have one. Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): If the House 5.23 pm divides tonight, I shall not support the programme Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): motion. A constitutional issue of this kind should be I, too, will vote against this guillotine motion if the scrutinised in full; Members of Parliament are elected House divides, but I plead with hon. and right hon. to the House to do exactly that. Whether we are on the Members not to divide the House, because we need to Opposition or the Government Benches, our job is to get on with discussing this Bill. I commend the scrutinise the Government’s Bills, and constitutional Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend Bills need the greatest scrutiny. the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), and the I have no objection to the Government allowing five Front-Bench team for giving a reasonable amount of days for debate; if they had not put a limit on the time time to this Bill, but it is important that I should make until which we could debate on those days, that would three brief observations. have been fine. The Government say that there is plenty First, I say to the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris of time to discuss the Bill. If that is so, they do not need Bryant) that we are all steeped in hypocrisy in the way to close the business at 9 o’clock or 11 o’clock in the in which we protest against guillotines and then find evening. If I am right, and the House wants to carry on ourselves voting for them when we sit on the Government a bit beyond that, let it talk on. That is what this Benches. He did that and I dare say that I too will do so House—this mother of democracy—is about. Forget from time to time. Secondly, the approach being taken the Labour years when the House was a rubber stamp. is the old way of doing things. We look forward to these Let us turn the House back into what it should be: it arrangements being governed by a business Committee should scrutinise the Government. of the whole House, which reflects the interests of the This is the start of the new democracy. In Committee, whole House and will ensure that these things are Government Members will be able to vote against the discussed as a broad consensus in the House would party line on matters that are not in the manifesto. That want them discussed, rather than how those on the is a great improvement, and it is a great enabling power Treasury Bench see fit. that the Prime Minister has given us. However, limiting My third observation is that this is an important debate so that we never reach clauses, and so cannot matter, because as we will discover—both those of us discuss and vote on them, is pointless. who have been through this process before and new We have at the Dispatch Box a Minister of great Members—the disadvantage of having a knife fall in courage and ability. If he were to say at the end of this the middle of detailed discussions on a Bill of this debate, “We will remove the time limit for the last four nature is that we will discover things that may not have days,” his career would blossom, and I urge him to do occurred to more than one Member in this House. Yet that. those arguments and discussions will be cut down in their prime. 5.29 pm I just hope that those on the Treasury Bench have Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): I endorse all the considered the consequence of there being too many remarks that have been made by my hon. Friends, and I, such occasions: it will whet the appetite of the other too, will vote against the programme motion if there is place. Time saved in this House may result in time a Division. I simply add to the arguments already ably added to scrutiny of the Bill in the other place. I urge put forward that this is a constitutional Bill. One has to those on the Treasury Bench seriously to keep under ask why there are conventions governing such Bills. The review the possibility of extending the time for debate answer, as is well established by those who study these on the Bill. I commend the Minister for saying that he matters and who have learned from experience, is that will keep the matter under review. If he really wants to there is a reason for the rule. The reason is that the Bill save time, the best way of saving time in the other place is important to the future of the electorate of the is for us to scrutinise the Bill properly. If we feel that our United Kingdom. It is seminal. discussion has been cut short, we will encourage the This is not just one of those occasions when one sees other place to take whatever time is necessary. people get up and declaim that there is some great The Electoral Commission has made it clear that constitutional issue at stake and then on examination it unless the rules of the forthcoming referendum are turns out not to be anything of the kind. This is settled six months before the referendum date, it will genuinely a constitutional Bill, and we deserve the not support the referendum date of 5 May 2011. There opportunity to debate it properly. I shall vote against is no possibility of the Bill completing all its stages by the programme motion on principle because it is in 5 November, so it is putting itself in a position in which contravention of the conventions of this House. As we 191 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 192 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill see the tsunami of constitutional aberrations inflicted Affairs Committee. We decided that we did not wish to on us in defiance of our manifesto and the wishes of the look at the entirety of the Bill; that it was more appropriately electorate, I am afraid I will have to continue to vote dealt with by another Committee. However, it was against the proposals because they are in defiance of appropriate for us to discuss, following a seminar with the interests of the electorate of the UK. the Electoral Commission, the impact of holding the AVreferendum on the same day as the Scottish elections. 5.30 pm It was appropriate that we should seek views from political Scotland on its observations, and we did so. I Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab): The am not convinced that the House, having made that Minister said some fine words about the Political and effort to consult Scotland, has left sufficient time under Constitutional Reform Committee. We tried hard, and the proposals for those views, which I understand were members from both sides of the House worked incredibly circulated to Members by e-mail only yesterday, to be hard, to get before the House the report that is in the taken into account by the Government. Vote Office, and which I personally sent to every Member of Parliament on Friday by e-mail so that they could be A strong view has been expressed by civic Scotland informed about some of the broader issues before the that is hostile to the proposals in the main. The Government debate got under way. may well decide to ignore it, which is entirely their right and responsibility, but I do not believe that they have We are complaining about the number of days on the considered it at all, which undermines the credibility of Floor of the House, but that number exceeds the number the debate in the House. Should the measures go through of days that the Select Committee was given to look at without due consideration it would be only right, in this issue in detail. There is a problem with that. People those circumstances, that another place should intervene may say, “Well, we can make it good on the Floor of the to send some of them back. House.” The Floor of the House is a hothouse, and people can be controversial and take sides. If we allow Question put— effective pre-legislative scrutiny by a Select Committee The House divided: Ayes 323, Noes 256. made up of members of all shades of opinion, we end Division No. 65] [5.36 pm up with a view, and some research done on behalf of all Members of the House that, I hope, carries some weight. AYES If the Government take away that weight and that scrutiny, if they deny Members whom the House asked Adams, Nigel Burrowes, Mr David to undertake that job the time to do it effectively, they Aldous, Peter Burstow, Paul delegitimise the Bill. Alexander, rh Danny Burt, Alistair Amess, Mr David Burt, Lorely Other people have said that if we cannot have a Andrew, Stuart Cairns, Alun proper debate in the House of Commons, the debate Bacon, Mr Richard Cameron, rh Mr David goes to the other place. As a House of Commons Bagshawe, Ms Louise Campbell, rh Sir Menzies person and a parliamentarian, I do not want to see that. Baker, Norman Carmichael, Mr Alistair It is essential that the House be allowed to debate Baker, Steve Carmichael, Neil whatever issue to the fullest extent. When the issue is Baldry, Tony Carswell, Mr Douglas one that strikes at the very heart of our democracy, that Baldwin, Harriett Chishti, Rehman raises issues of national concern, whether it is the Barclay, Stephen Clappison, Mr James number of Members of Parliament, the boundaries, the Barker, Gregory Clark, rh Greg question on the referendum paper or our electoral Bebb, Guto Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth system, surely it is even more necessary that this House Beith, rh Sir Alan Clegg, rh Mr Nick Bellingham, Mr Henry Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey should have the proper processes to do its job properly. Benyon, Richard Coffey, Dr Thérèse We are discussing a programme motion before we get Beresford, Sir Paul Collins, Damian stuck into the Committee stage on the Floor of the Berry, Jake Colvile, Oliver House. Just as the hon. Member for Harwich and Bingham, Andrew Cox, Mr Geoffrey North Essex (Mr Jenkin) said, perhaps we need to look Birtwistle, Gordon Crockart, Mike again very soon at the idea of the business Committee. Blackman, Bob Crouch, Tracey We also need to look again at timetabling sensible Blackwood, Nicola Davey, Mr Edward scrutiny at the beginning of the legislative process, not Blunt, Mr Crispin Davies, David T. C. halfway through it, as we are about to go into battle on Boles, Nick (Monmouth) particular clauses and fight each other and have debates Bottomley, Peter Davies, Glyn and votes. I would ask the Minister to learn some Bradley, Karen de Bois, Nick lessons on this Bill, which are applicable to future Brady, Mr Graham Dinenage, Caroline democratic Bills in the pipeline. If he does not, he places Brake, Tom Djanogly, Mr Jonathan us all in the difficulty that we are sending to the other Bray, Angie Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen place Bills that may be faulty, are not legitimate and Brazier, Mr Julian Dorries, Nadine have not had the proper debate that they deserve. Then, Bridgen, Andrew Doyle-Price, Jackie Brine, Mr Steve Drax, Richard we should not complain if we reap the whirlwind of Brokenshire, James Duncan, rh Mr Alan that decision. It lies in the hands of this House and this Brooke, Annette Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Chamber. Browne, Mr Jeremy Dunne, Mr Philip Bruce, rh Malcolm Ellis, Michael 5.34 pm Buckland, Mr Robert Ellison, Jane Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op): Burley, Mr Aidan Elphicke, Charlie I too want to speak about legitimacy and adequacy of Burns, Conor Eustice, George consideration in my capacity as Chair of the Scottish Burns, Mr Simon Evans, Graham 193 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 194 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Evans, Jonathan Kelly, Chris Pawsey, Mark Streeter, Mr Gary Evennett, Mr David Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Penning, Mike Stride, Mel Fabricant, Michael Kirby, Simon Penrose, John Stuart, Mr Graham Fallon, Michael Knight, rh Mr Greg Percy, Andrew Stunell, Andrew Farron, Tim Kwarteng, Kwasi Perry, Claire Sturdy, Julian Featherstone, Lynne Laing, Mrs Eleanor Phillips, Stephen Swales, Ian Field, Mr Mark Lamb, Norman Pickles, rh Mr Eric Swayne, Mr Desmond Foster, Mr Don Lancaster, Mark Pincher, Christopher Swinson, Jo Fox,rhDrLiam Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Poulter, Dr Daniel Swire, Mr Hugo Francois, rh Mr Mark Latham, Pauline Prisk, Mr Mark Syms, Mr Robert Freeman, George Laws, rh Mr David Pritchard, Mark Teather, Sarah Freer, Mike Leadsom, Andrea Pugh, Dr John Thurso, John Fullbrook, Lorraine Lee, Jessica Raab, Mr Dominic Timpson, Mr Edward Fuller, Richard Lee, Dr Phillip Randall, rh Mr John Tomlinson, Justin Garnier, Mr Edward Leech, Mr John Rees-Mogg, Jacob Tredinnick, David Gauke, Mr David Lefroy, Jeremy Reevell, Simon Truss, Elizabeth George, Andrew Leigh, Mr Edward Reid, Mr Alan Tyrie, Mr Andrew Gibb, Mr Nick Leslie, Charlotte Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Uppal, Paul Gilbert, Stephen Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Robathan, Mr Andrew Vaizey, Mr Edward Glen, John Lewis, Brandon Robertson, Hugh Vara, Mr Shailesh Goodwill, Mr Robert Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Robertson, Mr Laurence Vickers, Martin Gove, rh Michael Lidington, Mr David Rogerson, Dan Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Graham, Richard Lilley, rh Mr Peter Rosindell, Andrew Walker, Mr Robin Grant, Mrs Helen Lloyd, Stephen Rudd, Amber Wallace, Mr Ben Gray, Mr James Long, Naomi Ruffley, Mr David Walter, Mr Robert Grayling, rh Chris Lord, Jonathan Russell, Bob Ward, Mr David Green, Damian Loughton, Tim Rutley, David Watkinson, Angela Greening, Justine Luff, Peter Sanders, Mr Adrian Weatherley, Mike Griffiths, Andrew Lumley, Karen Sandys, Laura Webb, Steve Gummer, Ben Macleod, Mary Scott, Mr Lee Wharton, James Gyimah, Mr Sam Main, Mrs Anne Selous, Andrew White, Chris Halfon, Robert Maude, rh Mr Francis Shapps, rh Grant Whittaker, Craig Hames, Duncan Maynard, Paul Sharma, Alok Whittingdale, Mr John Hammond, rh Mr Philip McCartney, Jason Shelbrooke, Alec Wiggin, Bill Hammond, Stephen McCartney, Karl Simmonds, Mark Willetts, rh Mr David Hancock, Matthew McIntosh, Miss Anne Simpson, Mr Keith Williams, Mr Mark Hands, Greg McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Skidmore, Chris Williams, Roger Harper, Mr Mark McPartland, Stephen Smith, Miss Chloe Williams, Stephen Harrington, Richard McVey, Esther Smith, Henry Williamson, Gavin Harris, Rebecca Menzies, Mark Smith, Julian Willott, Jenny Hart, Simon Mercer, Patrick Smith, Sir Robert Wilson, Mr Rob Harvey, Nick Metcalfe, Stephen Soames, Nicholas Wollaston, Dr Sarah Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Miller, Maria Soubry, Anna Wright, Jeremy Hayes, Mr John Mills, Nigel Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Wright, Simon Heald, Mr Oliver Milton, Anne Spencer, Mr Mark Yeo, Mr Tim Heath, Mr David Moore, rh Michael Stanley, rh Sir John Young, rh Sir George Heaton-Harris, Chris Mordaunt, Penny Stephenson, Andrew Zahawi, Nadhim Hemming, John Morgan, Nicky Stevenson, John Henderson, Gordon Morris, Anne Marie Stewart, Bob Tellers for the Ayes: Hendry, Charles Morris, David Stewart, Iain Stephen Crabb and Herbert, rh Nick Morris, James Stewart, Rory James Duddridge Hinds, Damian Mosley, Stephen Hoban, Mr Mark Mowat, David NOES Hollingbery, George Mulholland, Greg Holloway, Mr Adam Mundell, rh David Abbott, Ms Diane Benton, Mr Joe Hopkins, Kris Munt, Tessa Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Berger, Luciana Horwood, Martin Murray, Sheryll Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Betts, Mr Clive Howarth, Mr Gerald Murrison, Dr Andrew Alexander, Heidi Blackman-Woods, Roberta Howell, John Neill, Robert Ali, Rushanara Blears, rh Hazel Hughes, Simon Newmark, Mr Brooks Allen, Mr Graham Blenkinsop, Tom Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Newton, Sarah Anderson, Mr David Blomfield, Paul Hunter, Mark Nokes, Caroline Austin, Ian Bone, Mr Peter Huppert, Dr Julian Norman, Jesse Bailey, Mr Adrian Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Jackson, Mr Stewart O’Brien, Mr Stephen Bain, Mr William Brennan, Kevin James, Margot Offord, Mr Matthew Balls, rh Ed Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Javid, Sajid Ollerenshaw, Eric Banks, Gordon Brown, Mr Russell Johnson, Gareth Opperman, Guy Barron, rh Mr Kevin Bryant, Chris Johnson, Joseph Osborne, rh Mr George Bayley, Hugh Buck, Ms Karen Jones, Andrew Ottaway, Richard Beckett, rh Margaret Burden, Richard Jones, Mr David Paice, Mr James Begg, Miss Anne Burnham, rh Andy Jones, Mr Marcus Parish, Neil Bell, Sir Stuart Byrne, rh Mr Liam Kawczynski, Daniel Patel, Priti Benn, rh Hilary Cairns, David 195 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 196 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Campbell, Mr Alan Gapes, Mike MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Seabeck, Alison Campbell, Mr Ronnie Gardiner, Barry MacShane, rh Mr Denis Shannon, Jim Cash, Mr William Gilmore, Sheila Mactaggart, Fiona Sharma, Mr Virendra Caton, Martin Glindon, Mrs Mary Mahmood, Shabana Sheerman, Mr Barry Chapman, Mrs Jenny Godsiff, Mr Roger Mann, John Shepherd, Mr Richard Chope, Mr Christopher Goggins, rh Paul Marsden, Mr Gordon Sheridan, Jim Clark, Katy Goodman, Helen McCann, Mr Michael Shuker, Gavin Clarke, rh Mr Tom Greatrex, Tom McCarthy, Kerry Simpson, David Clwyd, rh Ann Green, Kate McClymont, Gregg Skinner, Mr Dennis Coaker, Vernon Greenwood, Lilian McCrea, Dr William Slaughter, Mr Andy Coffey, Ann Griffith, Nia McDonagh, Siobhain Smith, rh Mr Andrew Connarty, Michael Gwynne, Andrew McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Smith, Nick Cooper, Rosie Hain, rh Mr Peter McFadden, rh Mr Pat Smith, Owen Cooper, rh Yvette Hamilton, Mr David McGovern, Alison Soulsby, Sir Peter Corbyn, Jeremy Hanson, rh Mr David McGovern, Jim Spellar, rh Mr John Crausby, Mr David Harman, rh Ms Harriet McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Straw, rh Mr Jack Creagh, Mary Harris, Mr Tom McKechin, Ann Stringer, Graham Creasy, Stella Havard, Mr Dai McKinnell, Catherine Stuart, Ms Gisela Cruddas, Jon Healey, rh John Meacher, rh Mr Michael Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Cryer, John Hepburn, Mr Stephen Mearns, Ian Tami, Mark Cunningham, Alex Heyes, David Michael, rh Alun Tapsell, Sir Peter Cunningham, Mr Jim Hillier, Meg Miliband, rh David Thomas, Mr Gareth Cunningham, Tony Hilling, Julie Miller, Andrew Thornberry, Emily Curran, Margaret Hodge, rh Margaret Mitchell, Austin Timms, rh Stephen Dakin, Nic Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Morden, Jessica Trickett, Jon Danczuk, Simon Hopkins, Kelvin Morrice, Graeme Turner, Karl Darling, rh Mr Alistair Hosie, Stewart Morris, Grahame M. Twigg, Derek David, Mr Wayne Howarth, rh Mr George Murphy, rh Mr Jim Twigg, Stephen Davidson, Mr Ian Hunt, Tristram Murphy, rh Paul Umunna, Mr Chuka Davies, Philip Illsley, Mr Eric Murray, Ian Vaz, Valerie De Piero, Gloria James, Mrs Siân C. Nandy, Lisa Walker, Mr Charles Denham, rh Mr John Jamieson, Cathy Nash, Pamela Walley, Joan Dobbin, Jim Jenkin, Mr Bernard Nuttall, Mr David Dobson, rh Frank Johnson, rh Alan O’Donnell, Fiona Watson, Mr Tom Docherty, Thomas Johnson, Diana R. Onwurah, Chi Watts, Mr Dave Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Jones, Graham Osborne, Sandra Weir, Mr Mike Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Jones, Helen Owen, Albert Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Jones, Mr Kevan Pearce, Teresa Whitehead, Dr Alan Doran, Mr Frank Jones, Susan Elan Perkins, Toby Wicks, rh Malcolm Doyle, Gemma Jowell, rh Tessa Phillipson, Bridget Williams, Hywel Dromey, Jack Joyce, Eric Pound, Stephen Williamson, Chris Dugher, Michael Kaufman, rh Sir Qureshi, Yasmin Wilson, Phil Durkan, Mark Gerald Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Winnick, Mr David Eagle, Ms Angela Keeley, Barbara Reeves, Rachel Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Eagle, Maria Keen, Alan Reynolds, Emma Wishart, Pete Efford, Clive Kendall, Liz Reynolds, Jonathan Wood, Mike Elliott, Julie Khan, rh Sadiq Riordan, Mrs Linda Woodcock, John Ellman, Mrs Louise Lammy, rh Mr David Robertson, Angus Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Engel, Natascha Lavery, Ian Robertson, John Woolas, Mr Phil Esterson, Bill Lazarowicz, Mark Rotheram, Steve Wright, David Evans, Chris Leslie, Chris Roy, Mr Frank Wright, Mr Iain Farrelly, Paul Lewis, Mr Ivan Roy, Lindsay Field, rh Mr Frank Lewis, Dr Julian Ruane, Chris Tellers for the Noes: Flello, Robert Lloyd, Tony Ruddock, rh Joan Lyn Brown and Flint, rh Caroline Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Sarwar, Anas Angela Smith Flynn, Paul Love, Mr Andrew Fovargue, Yvonne Lucas, Caroline Question accordingly agreed to. Francis, Dr Hywel Lucas, Ian 197 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 198 Constituencies Bill Parliamentary Voting System and Amendment 225, page 1, line 6, leave out ‘5 May Constituencies Bill 2011’ and insert [Relevant documents: Third Report from the Political ‘the day of the next general election’. and Constitutional Reform Committee, Parliamentary Amendment 5, in schedule 1, page 14, line 7, leave Voting System and Constituencies Bill, HC 437, and the out oral evidence taken before the Committee on the Coalition ‘day on which this Act is passed’ Government’s programme of political and constitutional and insert ‘relevant date’. reform on Thursday 15 July, HC 358-i.] Amendment 6, page 14, line 8, at end insert— ‘1A (1) For the purposes of paragraph 1(a) above the “relevant [1ST ALLOCATED DAY] date” is a date specified in an order made by the Considered in Committee Minister, after consultation to be held after Royal Assent to this Act with the Electoral Commission as to an appropriate period for the fair conduct of the referendum. [MR NIGEL EVANS in the Chair] (2) If in the opinion of the Electoral Commission the date on which Royal Assent is given to this Act would Clause 1 mean that there would be an insufficient period for the fair conduct of the referendum if it were held on REFERENDUM ON THE ALTERNATIVE VOTE SYSTEM the date otherwise required by section 1, the Minister may by order specify such later date on which the referendum shall be held as the Electoral Commission 5.53 pm shall approve.’. Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): I beg to move amendment 155, page 1, leave out Mr MacNeil: I am glad that I may speak to our line 6 and insert— amendment on the date of the referendum on the ‘(2) (a) The Electoral Commission shall within two months of voting system. Royal Assent to this Act specify The current proposed date makes the referendum a the date on which the referendum is to be held. squatter in another’s house, perhaps even a parasite. It (b) The specified date must be— is quite unbelievable that, of all possible days, one has (i) within 18 months of the date of Royal Assent to this been chosen that means the concerns of parts of the Act, and current UK are completely overlooked and disregarded. (ii) a date on which no other election to a parliament It is almost as though the Bill were intended to find or assembly in the United Kingdom is to be held. opponents, and it has been successful in that end. It has (c) The Minister must lay before Parliament the draft of created a coalition of opponents. an Order in Council to give effect to the specified The handling of the referendum’s timing has been at date. best insensitive and insulting and at worst high-handed (d) The draft of the Order in Council under paragraph (c) and cack-handed. In Scotland, we have already moved above shall not be laid before Parliament until the our council elections by a year so that they do not specified date has been agreed by the Scottish Parliament, the Northern Ireland Assembly and the interfere with the parliamentary elections and vice versa. National Assembly for Wales.’. We have shown respect for others and each other. I have heard about the respect agenda, and I am now seeing its The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel substance. I have also heard about the Liberal-Tory big Evans): With this it will be convenient to discuss the society, and I wonder whether that is as vacuous, but following: that is another debate. Amendment 4, page 1, line 6, leave out The fact that the Electoral Commission has sent guidance to Scotland’s 32 local authorities informing ‘must be held on 5 May 2011’ them that the referendum will be “the senior poll” is and insert— bad news for all of us who respect what happens in the ‘shall be held on a date specified in an order made by the Scottish Parliament. The counting of ballots for the Minister, provided that such date— Scottish Parliament will come second, which could (a) shall not coincide with any poll or polls held for any delay some Scottish parliamentarians’ results until the parliamentary assembly or regularly held local next day, or perhaps even later given Scottish geography government election; and or, as I can testify from the experience of the 2007 (b) shall be at least six months after the commencement of election, weather. The same could apply in Northern the referendum period (as specified in Schedule 1).’. Ireland. Wales has already seen the problem coming Amendment 126, page 1, line 6, leave out ‘on 5 May 2011’ and moved its elections, because there are to be two and insert referendums, a council election and an Assembly election ‘within 18 months of Royal Assent on a date that shall not in 2011. coincide with any poll or polls for any parliamentary assembly or For all parties in Scotland, the question is why Scottish regularly held local government elections, to be specified by issues should be put on the back burner for a referendum order subject to the approval of both Houses and following a for which there appears to be little real public appetite. consultation undertaken by the Electoral Commission.’. There has been surprisingly honest input on that Amendment 1, page 1, line 6, leave out ‘5 May 2011’ question—hostile, some might call it, although we might and insert ‘8 September 2011’. call it sensible. There has been sensible input from Jim Amendment 124, page 1, line 6, leave out ‘5 May’ and Tolson, who happens to be the Liberal Democrat MSP insert ‘2 June’. for Dunfermline West. He has supported us, saying that 199 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 200 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill he is very much against having a referendum on the Mr MacNeil: My hon. Friend’s assertion is correct. same day as the Scottish election. Oh, that the Liberal The referendum, when it arrives, will probably receive Democrats south of the border could show the same very little attention in Scotland, because those of us sense. involved in politics will not waste any time discussing whether we are for or against. We will have greater Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op): priorities that affect Scots day in, day out—and not a Is the hon. Gentleman aware that Jim Tolson’s submission voting system for Westminster that comes along every was one of a number that were made to the Scottish four or five years. [Interruption.] I think that I have Affairs Committee, which have now been circulated to roused some Members. the House as a whole by e-mail? I hope that all Members will study them in great detail. Ms Louise Bagshawe (Corby) (Con): Which is it to be: will the referendum arouse no interest whatsoever in Mr MacNeil: I welcome that input from the Chair of Scotland because we have weightier matters to discuss, the Scottish Affairs Committee. We all look forward to or will it drown out all other voices and deprive the opening that e-mail and spending many happy hours Scottish people of the ability to consider their local reading it. elections?

Mr Davidson: You can overdo it, you know. Mr MacNeil: The hon. Lady misses the point: the way in which the UK is constructed, the way in which Mr MacNeil: Maybe not happy hours, just hours. finance goes into the media in the UK, and where the media broadcast from and are centralised. Everybody Tom Aitchison, the convenor of the interim electoral accepts that that issue will dominate. management board for Scotland, has expressed sensible concerns about holding the UK’s alternative vote Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): It is not clear whether referendum on the same day as the Scottish Parliament the hon. Gentleman’s position is that there should be a poll. The proposal is an example of bad practice, and referendum on another date, or whether he views the perhaps a slippery slope. In the United States, referendums issue as so irrelevant that it should be held on no date. Is are often used as wedge issues—some would allege that it no date or a different date? the Republican strategist Karl Rove uses them for exactly that purpose. We do not want our democracies hijacked Mr MacNeil: I have clearly engaged the hon. Gentleman by side issues on the day of a main vote that has been well, because he anticipates my next point. I remind him expected for years. of what I have said: it is not that the electoral system is unimportant; it is just that it is lower down the hierarchy Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): If I recall of needs and importance. the provisions of the Scotland Act 1998 correctly, the Scottish Parliament has the ability to vary the date of Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): Is the hon. Gentleman its election. If there is concern about having the polls on truly saying that the electorate lack the sophistication to the same day, surely it could move the election a few understand various different issues at the same time? In weeks either side. other words, is he saying that the electorate cannot walk and chew gum at the same time? Mr MacNeil: I hear the hon. Gentleman’s accent. I have heard about the respect agenda, but I smell cultural Mr MacNeil: I am saying not that the electorate have imperialism in its worst form. any difficulties, but that the media that broadcast into The UK’s media are pretty poor at dealing with people’s homes have a difficulty. If the hon. Gentleman complexities across the UK, and we are concerned that is secure and certain of the sophistication of the electorate, the important issues that will rightly come before the he will doubtless support the inclusion of the single Scottish people will be sidelined by an “X Factor” transferable vote, and perhaps other forms of election media dealing with the simpler issue of the referendum. on the ballot paper. That would give proper cognisance It happens in the US—it is the big ticket election, which to the sophistication of the electorate. affects all viewers, listeners, readers and dare I say media consumers, that counts, regardless of the importance Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- of the issues being debated. However, is daily health op): Does the hon. Gentleman agree with me and with and education policy not more important than the type Tom Aitchison, to whom he has already referred, that of electoral system that is employed every four to five this is not simply a matter of the sophistication of the years? That is not to say that the electoral system is electorate? Mr Aitchison has identified serious practical unimportant, but surely it is further down the hierarchy problems, not least, as he put it in his evidence to the of needs and importance. Scottish Affairs Committee, the problems of sourcing enough ballot boxes, the hiring of additional venues and the expense of hiring additional staff. 6pm Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): Does my hon. Friend Mr MacNeil: The hon. Lady makes her point well; I agree that there is a disconnect, because serious politicians will add no more, other than to thank her for that in Scotland will be dealing with issues of health and intervention. education, which are so important in our Parliament? The amendment tabled in my name and those of my There will be no real debate about the alternative vote hon. Friends seeks to correct the huge error that has been because, frankly, no one is interested in it. There will made and to enable a day to be found, with the Electoral therefore be a double whammy. Commission taking the lead, so that the referendum 201 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 202 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Mr MacNeil] to money, but, considering the scale of the national deficit, I regard £30 million as more of an excuse than a can take place on a date on which no other election to a reason. It is rather like the schoolboy whose excuse that Parliament or Assembly in the United Kingdom is to be he was late for school because he missed the bus does held. To that end, it seeks respect and consultation not exactly explain why he missed the bus. between the UK’s parliamentary and Assembly institutions. There might be a perceived advantage for the yes I have not prescribed a specific date, but have specified a campaign in having an early date before the Government time frame within which a referendum could take place. incur too much disapproval from voters in relation to That would enable everything to occur and the process the difficult decisions that have to be made about the to be completed before the next UK election, which was deficit. The yes campaign might perceive an advantage alluded to during the programme motion debate. from a higher turnout, although the NO2AV campaign My thinking in framing the amendment was to avoid disputes that. The yes campaign might perceive an being prescriptive and repeating the Deputy Prime Minister’s advantage in confusion and ignorance, because there is error of finding a date and arguing for it, regardless of bound to be more confusion and ignorance about the what else might be happening on that date. My main substance of the issue, which I will address later in my motivation has been to respect already established processes remarks, if the polls are combined. and elections by finding another day, consensually and with respect for all by all. I do not, however, rule out Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): supporting other amendments through a mechanism of The hon. Gentleman stated that, if there was a free vote, mutual support. his amendment would almost certainly be agreed to. I move the amendment because, although this issue is Does he agree that, if there was a free vote, there would important—the Committee would not be discussing it if not be a referendum? it was not—it is not as important as the range of policy choices to be made in Scotland and the re-election of an Mr Jenkin: That is outside the purview of my SNP Government on 5 May 2011. amendment. Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): There might be a perceived advantage to the yes I rise to move amendment 4, which was tabled in my campaign, which the Deputy Prime Minister is pursuing, name and those of my colleagues and which is associated or to the coalition. There is a risk of a serious collapse with amendments 5 and 6. in Liberal Democrat support at next year’s local Scottish and Welsh elections, but it would be of advantage to the The Temporary Chair (Mr Jim Hood): Order. I must Liberal Democrats to have the enticement of the referendum advise the hon. Gentleman that he cannot move his on the reform of the electoral system to encourage their amendment. He can speak to it, but he cannot move it. activists to press their voters out to vote. I might be wrong—I will stand corrected if I am—but we have not Mr Jenkin: I am grateful for the correction. My had an explanation. Either way, it is wrong in principle mistake reflects a gross lack of experience in this place, that the Executive should seek to use elections to influence for which I apologise. I will vote on my amendments if I the outcome of a referendum on an important get the opportunity, but I will also support the amendment constitutional question, or that they should use the that has just been moved in the name of the nationalists. referendum to influence the outcome of elections. I appreciate that, following the heated discussion Amendment 4, which is in my name and that of my about this issue during the summer, we are less likely to right hon. and hon. Friends, is similar to amendment 155— win this vote. Early-day motion 613 attracted a large the Scottish National party proposal. It provides for an number of signatures, including those of some 40 or order whereby the Government can choose any date 45 Conservative Members, some of whom have been that does not coincide with a poll that is regularly held made Parliamentary Private Secretaries, with one being for parliamentary, Assembly or local government elections. given the deputy chairmanship of the Conservative In addition, it proposes—this is important—that the party. Other promises have no doubt been made and referendum is held career-ending threats have certainly been delivered. I “at least six months after the commencement of the referendum wonder what would happen to the date of this referendum period”. if there was a free vote, but that is clearly not going to As I mentioned, the Electoral Commission made it happen. clear that it will press for a deferment of the referendum Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): May I if the rules of the referendum are not clear on a six-month express extreme disappointment that, as one of the time frame from the proposed date. In fact, the referendum people who signed the early-day motion, no offers have period should count, because it restricts what people been made to me whatsoever? can spend and what Ministers can say or announce to promote a particular viewpoint, which might distort the Mr Jenkin: My hon. Friend should call that freedom. result. The six-month period provides the framework of It is surprising that this has turned out to be a matter of discipline that provides the fairness of the referendum. such extreme importance to the coalition. The question Unless we have a six-month referendum period, which is not whether the yes or no campaign will do better on is not possible if we do not change the date, we are this or that date—some people profess to know, but I tempting providence that there will be an unfair referendum. confess that I do not—but why the Government think it is in the national interest or, dare I say it, in their Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): Is the interest to have the referendum on that particular date, hon. Gentleman any clearer on the Government’s intentions and why it is so important to this Government. The if the House of Lords makes a significant amendment only explanation that we have been given so far relates on the timing of the referendum? 203 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 204 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Mr Jenkin: I have had no indication what would On the question of constitutional confusion, the happen in that situation. I assume that the Government commission argued: would accept such an amendment, because they cannot “Holding a referendum implies that there is a constitutional” afford to delay the Bill. I would point to other amendments or in the group that refer to the referendum period and are consequential on it. “important issue being put to the country” and therefore that it is The real reason for avoiding the combination of polls with referendums is fairness. Whatever the merits of “preferable that the issue being debated is subject to as little combining referendums with elections throughout the ‘interference’ or influence from other ongoing activities, such as a general, regional and/or local elections. For example, shifting referendum constituency, all voters should at least be attitudes towards political parties, their relative un/popularity of treated the same. It is obvious from the date on the table the day, may have a greater impact on the referendum result than at the moment that voters are being treated differently feelings or knowledge about the issue at hand”. in different parts of the country. The commission concluded: When the then Prime Minister, Mr Blair, was “It is essential that any referendum campaign and result is seen contemplating holding a referendum on the euro on the to be elevated above party politics. This is difficult to achieve in a same day as Welsh and Scottish elections, Professor combined poll”. Larry LeDuc, one of the world’s leading referendum By any stretch of the imagination, the referendum academics, made it clear that he could not recall one will decide a constitutional issue, and one which divides similar case of such differential treatment of a referendum all parties—there are people even in the Conservative electorate. I challenge anyone to find an example of a party who are mad enough to consider the alternative serious country putting a serious decision to its people vote. [HON.MEMBERS: “Name them!”] Allow me to in a referendum when there is such different treatment correct myself: some Conservatives are mad enough to of electors. consider supporting the alternative vote because they Professor LeDuc thought that the UK proposal was want something else. The idea that an AV referendum probably unique and volunteered this opinion: should be decided amid the furore of the party political “The effects…would not be uniform across the country. It battle—in Scotland, for example, public spending cuts would likely produce considerable distortion with regard to turnout, will have to be hotly debated—seems extremely the nature of the campaign, and a variety of other matters that unsatisfactory to me, as the 2002-03 proposal did to the might be difficult to determine in advance. The referendum, if it Electoral Commission. occurs, would be a different sort of political event in England than it would be in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. I can’t think of a case parallel to that anywhere else.” Mr Weir: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that politicians might discuss public spending cuts rather than the referendum? There will be a disconnect, because Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): There is the BBC, for example, might broadcast news only on an obvious reason for that. In the United States, where the referendum, but the battle on the ground will be it is common practice to combine referendums with a completely different. That will also skew the result. series of elections, there is a system by which almost all elections are held on the same day in all states. That situation does not exist here. Parts of our country have Mr Jenkin: If I may, I will come to the question of devolved Assemblies and others do not. broadcasting balance when I have dealt with campaign confusion. Mr Jenkin: We have come to a strange pass when The commission stated: Liberal Democrats hold the United States up as a “The issue surrounding different political parties campaigning model of democracy. Another point is that the United together (referendum) and against each other (elections) may also States has not changed its voting system. It has used the cause confusion, and consequent disinterest (even hostility), among one it inherited from this place: the plain, straightforward, voters.” vanilla, winner-takes-all system. Perhaps that is why US On reflection, perhaps the yes campaign wants hostility. democracy works so well. In fact, I do not know any Let us face it: that campaign wants a plague on all our academic authority that would hold up the US as a houses, and to change the system at a stroke to reflect model of running referendums, and I will come back to the hostility that people feel towards this place. I am that in a moment. sure that the yes campaign will seek to press that button.

6.15 pm Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): My hon. Friend Perhaps the most useful thing I can do for Members mentioned the Electoral Commission. Given the at this juncture is simply to run through briefly what the commission’s role in overseeing the AV referendum, is Electoral Commission decided in 2002-03. I obtained he concerned about the fact that the chair of the the papers from a freedom of information request from commission, Jenny Watson, used to work for Charter 88, the commission. On turnout, the commission argued which is a pro-European lobby group? that “the effects of a combined poll may distort the result, albeit whilst Mr Jenkin: When my hon. Friend says “pro-European,” increasing turnout” I think he means pro-electoral reform. I have no such and that concerns; I have the highest respect for Jenny Watson. I “the turnout of combined polls can have varied results. As such, think that, because of her previous position, she we will the benefits do not appear to be so great or definitive as to want to be seen to be as impartial as possible. It is a automatically over-ride any potential problems a combined poll natural concern, but people would be wrong to draw might bring.” that conclusion from her conduct of her office. 205 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 206 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): broadcasting, it is worth reflecting that only 3% of the I draw the hon. Gentleman’s attention to the submission output across seven BBC networks broadcast to the to the Scottish Affairs Committee from Fairer Votes, whole of Britain comes from Scotland, Wales and Northern the pro-PR campaign in Scotland, which has also argued Ireland, where 17% of the audience live. Those figures for holding the referendum on a different day. Even may be out of date but that does not invalidate the those in favour of AVdo not support the proposed date. substance of the point. Viewers in Scotland will see the AV referendum on Mr Jenkin: The date of 5 May 2011 is losing friends the UK news with little or no news of the Scottish very quickly. election. Coverage of the Scottish elections will therefore The Electoral Commission argues that the environment be more in the hands of the press, who are not bound by in which voters live may influence voting patterns. Voters the requirements of balance. This tension in the structure in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales would be of broadcasting proved politically controversial in “subject to more intensive and varied campaigning than the April 1995 when the BBC in London scheduled an electorate in England (in a nationwide referendum)…Certain extended edition of “Panorama” with an interview with parts of the electorate may feel that they are less well informed about the referendum issue than in other parts of the country. the then Prime Minister John Major. Unfortunately, Conversely, they may feel that they are not as well informed about that was only three days before the Scottish elections. the national and/or local elections.” After a court action, Lord Abernethy, later backed by Those are all reasons why confusion could be generated Lord Hope, Lord Murray and Lord McCluskey, granted in a referendum. an injunction banning transmission in Scotland so as to ensure fair coverage of the elections there. How would Perhaps the most important consideration is broadcasting it be possible for any programme about the referendum transparency. The Electoral Commission also recognised transmitted in London to be banned in the same way if that it were thought that it might distort the coverage of the “the requirement to present balanced reporting of elections and a elections in Scotland? referendum is an especially difficult issue to manage when holding combined polls. Distinguishing between election and referendum It goes without saying that the AV referendum will be campaign activities will be extremely difficult, if not impossible in heavily covered by the broadcasters in London, where some instances…These issues may have a negative effect on voter there will be no elections at the time—not even local awareness; it will also make the monitoring of broadcasting (and ones. The Ladbroke Grove set will therefore be obsessed campaign expenses) more difficult.” with the referendum and not very interested in anything The then BBC chief political advisor said in February else. I cannot see how a business of the size and complexity 2002 that she had met Helen Liddell, the then Secretary of the BBC can balance all these issues so as to provide of State for Scotland, and Jack McConnell, the then fair coverage. First Minister, and that she had “made my views very clear to the politicians and the BBC…it was The Electoral Commission also mentioned respect a bad move…condescending to Scotland, Wales and Northern for devolved institutions. I was an opponent of devolution, Ireland…it would put broadcasters in an impossible position”. but we now have a Scottish Parliament that reflects the It is not difficult to see why. How many parties in the sovereign will of the sovereign Scottish people. I am Scottish elections will broadly support changing the afraid that the suggestion from my hon. Friend the voting system? It may be two, three, four or even none. Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart)—an But how many will be on the other side of the argument? English Member, albeit with an impeccable Scottish How can a programme that has a panel of guests to talk lineage and a lovely Scottish accent—that we could tell about the election and the referendum possibly be balanced? the Scottish Parliament to move its elections, because How can the BBC achieve balance and transparency on we are more important, is not a very Unionist sentiment. the referendum issue at the same time as it does so on It is bound to cause exactly the kind of resentment and the Scottish elections? mistrust between the Westminster Parliament and the Scottish Parliament that surely we want to avoid—so Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): I am listening to my the Scottish nationalists would probably love it. hon. Friend’s speech with great interest. He questions The Electoral Commission concluded its now famous the ability of the media to construct a panel in such press release from July 2002 by stating: circumstances. We often say that we want local issues, “Referendums on fundamental issues of national importance rather than national issues, to dominate local elections, should be considered in isolation”. but the national perspective can be focused very much on a single issue, as in this case, and it is surely not As a coda to that account, I shall turn briefly to the beyond the wit of broadcasters to sort the matter out— arguments advanced by the commission today. It says including those in the BBC, who are paid considerable that it has based its decision to reverse its position on sums to do so. the date on the available research, including from countries where combining referendums with other polls is Mr Jenkin: I am merely quoting the former chief commonplace. In the US, for example, the big concern political adviser to the BBC who said that it would put about combined elections is that people have so many broadcasters in an impossible position. My hon. Friend’s ballot papers to deal with at a time that they vote in the argument is with her, not me. elections but not in the referendums. That system is Broadcasters are especially important in referendums therefore not necessarily a guarantee of turnout and the and elections. Viewers may not be generally aware of US is not a great model for the good conduct of the obligation for broadcasters—unlike newspapers—to referendums. provide balanced coverage, but they accord respect to The commission cites the US, Australia, Ireland and broadcast programmes reflecting that obligation. Using several European countries, including Switzerland and the BBC as a proxy for the centralism of British Finland. However, the commission has ignored the fact 207 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 208 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill that Australia has compulsory voting, so turnout is speech in support of first past the post, to win the hardly an issue. We can therefore dismiss that argument. argument. He has therefore constructed this elaborate Finland is an interesting example. I was forwarded an mechanism to make an argument that he does not really e-mail from Dr Maija Setälä who is a research fellow in buy. the political science department of the University of Turku. She says: Mr Jenkin: I am rather touched—I have never been “The UK electoral commission is absolutely wrong; we have accused of lacking confidence before. I think that the had two national referendums: one in 1931 on prohibition law NO2AV campaign will win whatever the date, and I and another one in 1994 on the EU accession. Both were initiated have every confidence that AV will be trashed at the by the parliamentary majority. Both of these referendums were polls. However, I do not think that my hon. Friend has advisory. So, Finland is about as active in using referendums as the UK.” been listening to my point. The question is not whether the date should be moved for the convenience of the yes In fact, we have more experience of using referendums or no campaigns; it is an issue of principle. If we believe than Finland. For the Electoral Commission even to in direct democracy, as I do, we should want the issues mention Finland as an example that we should follow, addressed in a referendum to be separated and—as the when it has had so little experience of referendums, Electoral Commission used to put it—elevated above underlines the lack of quality in its research. the party political battle, so that the British people have The Electoral Commission paper, which went along a fair and uncluttered opportunity to understand those with what the Government wanted, reflects a distinct issues. I hope, therefore, that the Committee will support lack of consultation outside the commission until the either the amendment in the name of the nationalists date was already decided on. The people in the BBC or, failing that, the amendment that I will move later. whom I personally addressed on this question said, “Well, we don’t really want to pick a fight with the Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): I pay tribute to the Government, because we have our own battles to fight serious contributions made in the first few speeches. with them.” To expect the BBC to weigh in against the Even if things do not turn out how those hon. Members Government’s date was perhaps a little optimistic of would like this evening, I am sure that colleagues in the me, but I had to try. The quality of the commission’s other place will read their speeches with great interest consultation and research has been lacking, which probably when they come to decide on the future of this Bill. reflects the fact that most of its people have changed I relish my new role and the prospect of working with since 1992. However, the fundamental point about the the coalition Government and, in particular, with the paper is that it does not address substantively any of the Deputy Prime Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary, arguments advanced in 2002 in favour of separate polls. both of whom are clearly committed to an agenda of reforming the Government’s political programme and 6.30 pm strengthening our democracy. However, I am disappointed that the Deputy Prime Minister is not here. I appreciate Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): Throughout that he has other important things to do, but it is your speech, you have quoted many supportive references, ironic—this draws on a point made by the hon. Member and made a very strong argument, but you have not for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles)—that the mentioned what the electorate would want— biggest proponent and advocate of the alternative vote is not here to talk about it. The Temporary Chair (Mr Jim Hood): Order. I remind The hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex the hon. Gentleman that I have not been making a (Mr Jenkin) is right that the burden should be on those speech. of us who want AV to prove the case to the British people, first, that they should be motivated sufficiently Justin Tomlinson: Would the electorate really want to to turn out on a separate date and vote on AV and, come out and vote twice on an issue, when they could secondly, that they should vote yes in the referendum. I get it over with in one day? am disappointed, therefore, that the Deputy Prime Minister is not here. He is the great reformer, and his not being Mr Jenkin: If we were really keen on reflecting what here sends, I am afraid, all the wrong messages to those the electorate of this country want, we would not give of us who want to join him in changing how we vote in them a referendum at all, because I do not think they the House of Commons. want one. [HON.MEMBERS: “Europe!”] In the interests of coalition unity, let us not go there—I think that is the Dr Julian Lewis: Those of us who do not want expression. AVunder any circumstances are actually rather heartened by the fact that, apart from Liberal Democrat Front-Bench Nick Boles (Grantham and Stamford) (Con): Has my Members, who perhaps have to be here, there are only hon. Friend not just revealed the truth of his position, two Liberal Democrat Members—albeit very distinguished which is that he has constructed a very elegant, beautifully ones—favouring this stage of the debate with their researched and fascinating argument for a position that presence. I do not think he really holds? His real position is that he does not want a referendum at all, because he does Sadiq Khan: The hon. Gentleman knows all about not want AVand thinks that we might lose the referendum. conspiracy theories, and there will be people around the I agree with him on AV—I do not want it either—but I country with their own conspiracy theories about why think he lacks confidence in the first-past-the-post system so few Liberal Democrat Members are here. and our party’s ability, and that of many supporters on The Bill has some positive aspects. In particular, the Labour Benches, such as the right hon. Member for some of us think that the proposals for a referendum on Derby South (Margaret Beckett), who made a fantastic the voting system are good ones, but unfortunately we 209 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 210 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Sadiq Khan] current intentions or aspirations of the Liberal Democrats are—survival might be one of them—but it is just a have concerns, as we will discuss, that other aspects of nasty piece of work, because we are not sure what they the Bill will do much to undermine, rather than enhance, stand for or what the end goal is. But that is what we British democracy. I am afraid that those aspects appear have, and sometimes the best can be the enemy of the to be the product of narrow party interests, and given good. We are where we are. how the Bill has been drafted, there is a danger that Others, of course, favour retaining the existing, first- those of us who would otherwise have supported it, and past-the-post system, believing it a more straightforward who ordinarily would have been allies of those on the method of voting that is more likely to avoid hung coalition Front Bench and the Deputy Prime Minister Parliaments and unstable Governments. I respect those will be forced to oppose it. The Committee has the views. Such differences of opinion are as evident in the opportunity to iron out those flaws so that the legislation Labour party as they are anywhere else—I hasten to can be made to support the high ideals of constitutional add that some of my best friends hold that view. Yet reform in the national interest, to which the coalition although many of my colleagues are divided on the aspired only five months ago. merits of different electoral systems, we are united in The starting point for today’s debate is clause 1, our belief that we should have a public debate about which, as was explained by the previous two speakers, whether to move to AV, and that the voters should be stipulates that a referendum on moving to the alternative given the final choice in a referendum. Although we vote system for parliamentary elections “must” be held support such a referendum, we share the concerns that on 5 May 2011. As has been said by the chuntering hon. many have voiced about precisely what the best time to Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath), the hold it is. We believe that there is a serious concern Committee will know that only one party—the Labour about whether it is wise to combine such a referendum party—went into the last election with a manifesto with the elections on 5 May 2011, as clause 1 proposes. commitment to hold a referendum on moving to AV. If passed, the Bill will change the way we choose That commitment was made after an attempt by the Members of our elected House of Commons, change then Labour Government to legislate for such a referendum the size of the House of Commons, change our boundaries earlier this year through the Constitutional Reform and and change the way we do politics for at least a generation. Governance Act 2010. Unfortunately, however, those Let us compare and contrast the haste with which that provisions were blocked by Conservative peers in the is being done—something on which there is a genuine unelected House of Lords—so the conspiracy theory difference of view, and not just between political parties, about why the Deputy Prime Minister is not here will but within them—with House of Lords reform. I am continue. Furthermore, I am happy to note—and put not being critical of the groundwork being done on the record right—that clauses providing for a referendum House of Lords reforms. All parties and most MPs had previously been passed by a substantial majority agree on the need to reform the House of Lords. However, thanks, in part, to the support of Liberal Democrat this coalition Government have established a Joint Members, one or two of whom have bothered to be here Committee, which is currently meeting and chaired by today while we discuss clause 1 of this great reforming the Deputy Prime Minister, with a draft Bill to be Deputy Prime Minister’s Bill. published before the end of this year. The draft Bill will It is right to give the people a choice between the be subject to pre-legislative scrutiny by a Joint Committee first-past-the-post and the alternative vote systems. AVis, over several months, and a Bill will be formally presented like first past the post, a majoritarian system that to Parliament, with, I am sure, a lengthy Second Reading maintains the single Member constituency link. However, debate, followed by a Committee stage and so on. Why it offers voters the ability to express a greater range of is House of Lords reform treated with such care, attention preferences than does first past the post, and that and detail, yet House of Commons reforms is treated element has, arguably, become more salient in recent with undue haste and contempt? years, with the resurgence of multi-party politics in the late 20th century. AV is also more likely to secure the return of Members of Parliament with the preferences Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab): Does my right of more than 50% of electors. However, the strength of hon. Friend agree that it is strange that a parallel piece that likelihood varies depending on the form of AVused. of legislation is effectively extending the length of this It should be noted—I am sure that colleagues are aware Parliament to five years, yet we have an unseemly rush of this—that the system proposed in the Bill allowing towards a referendum that, frankly, could be held at any voters to express as many or as few preferences as they time over the next three or four years of this Parliament? like would not guarantee the return of every Member Does he have any clue as to the psychology of the with the preferences of more than 50% of electors. coalition Government in rushing for a referendum next None the less, the voluntary model of AV on offer here May? could increase the legitimacy of the electoral process. Sadiq Khan: The reason there has been a push for Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): Is changing the voting system and for MPs being encouraged not even to call this a mouse of a proposal to give a to try to secure more than half of the electorate is that mouse a bad name? It is like Mr and Mrs Mouse got trust and confidence had been broken by expenses and together and had a huge litter of children—and this all the rest of it. The irony is that this shabby deal that AV proposal is the runt of that litter. the coalition Government have agreed—a fixed-term Parliament, rushing through a referendum on 5 May Sadiq Khan: The hon. Gentleman was, I am sure, in 2011, the boundary changes, and all the other things—is the House when the then MP for Cambridge referred to breaking the trust and confidence that we have been it as a “jemmy in the door”. I am not sure what the trying to build over the past few weeks and months, yet 211 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 212 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill they do so at their peril. The hon. Member for Harwich Scottish and Welsh people. That case is therefore a good and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) referred to his theories, example of cross-party co-operation on constitutional but nobody has yet given the reason why 5 May 2011 issues. should be the date of the referendum. If it is the case that the next election should be fought with 600 seats The Temporary Chair (Mr Jim Hood): Order. If we rather than 650, and with different boundaries—I accept are going to have interventions, can I ask that they be a that some hon. Members on the Government Benches bit shorter than that? Also, I am hearing noises from hold this view—that can still be achieved, but by having hon. Members to the side of me, which is inappropriate. a referendum later than 5 May 2011. What is the reason I would ask right hon. and hon. Members not to for the rush? chunter when an hon. Member is making a speech. Richard Fuller: Will the right hon. Gentleman admit that it is somewhat hubristic for Labour Members to Sadiq Khan: My right hon. Friend makes a good talk about the timing of referendums, when we are still point, but there is an even better point, which is that the waiting for the referendum that they promised when issue was in our manifesto, which the British people they were in office on European reform? I do not know voted on, rather than in an agreement reached after five whether he is a good judge of the timing of referendums, days of haggling. There is a big difference between the as last time he did not put that referendum in place two. The obvious question is: why the rush for 5 May at all. 2011? We look forward to receiving the answer from the Parliamentary Secretary. Sadiq Khan: I am happy to take as many interventions as possible, but the hon. Gentleman has to grow up. Just grow up: we are having a proper debate about clause 1. Mr Davidson: As someone who has form on supporting As the hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills referendums, not only in the case of Maastricht, but on (Mr Shepherd) said, this is really the old politics. Let us the constitution, I am in favour of the referendum that debate the merits of clause 1. we are discussing now. However, to answer my right hon. Friend’s question about the timing, it is because a Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): I hope shabby deal has been done. In return for supporting that we can introduce some civility into this debate. The Tory cuts, the Liberals get a reward. That is what this is shadow Minister really should raise the level of the about. It is very much the old politics, and that is why so debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Bedford (Richard many people will argue that crime should not pay, that Fuller) raised a valid point: it ill behoves the right hon. the Liberals should be punished and that everybody Gentleman to lecture us on referendums on far-reaching should vote against AV in a referendum. constitutional issues when his party not only reneged on a solemn promise made at the ballot box to have a Sadiq Khan: What are the reasons for the coalition referendum on the Lisbon treaty, but guillotined the Government combining the referendum with the other relevant Bill, forcing it through this House. elections taking place next May? One reason, as described by the hon. Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) Sadiq Khan: I am happy to compare the record of in an intervention on the excellent speech by the hon. Labour Governments on having referendums and making Member for Harwich and North Essex, is that voters constitutional changes—changes with agreement and would be too fatigued to go to the polls twice in a year. proper pre-legislative scrutiny—with that of this coalition That reason is a pretty feeble justification for choosing Government or any previous Conservative Government. May 2011. If the coalition Government and the Deputy Prime Minister believe, as I do, that electoral reform is a 6.45 pm fundamental constitutional issue and that the public Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): Does the genuinely want the opportunity to vote for change, we right hon. Gentleman remember the timing of the important should all have the confidence to believe that voters referendum on Scottish independence, which actually would be willing to cast a vote in more than one ballot occurred before the Bill had passed through this House? in a year. Sadiq Khan: One of the important things that the hon. Gentleman has to understand and accept is that Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): Does the one reason why a change in the voting system has been right hon. Gentleman agree that the House ought to recommended is so that we can win back the trust and pay attention to the Gould report? That report was confidence of the British people. It ill behoves him to compiled at the behest of the previous Government, try to do that by harking back to precedents that I am after the mess of the 2007 elections in Scotland, when afraid did not win the trust and confidence of the there were various elections on the same day. Gould British people, but led to bigger problems than they concluded that one solved. “problem with combining these elections has to do with the confusion it creates among the electorate,” Mrs McGuire: I appreciate that my right hon. Friend adding that was not in the House at that time, so perhaps I could remind him that the constitutional issue that was put “it is clear that some voters were confused by the combined before the Scottish and Welsh people arose as a result of elections”. a cross-party consensus that that referendum should be The Deputy Prime Minister says that that is patronising, held. There was not a unilateral decision on the date; but surely no one could suggest that only the voters of there was an agreement on how we would move things Scotland will be confused. If voters are confused, voters forward, so that we could ascertain the views of the are confused. 213 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 214 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Sadiq Khan: The hon. Lady makes a good point. I In my view, the Deputy Prime Minister had good shall come to Ron Gould and his report in a moment, reasons for opposing the combination. He worried that but she is right to say that he was not being patronising, holding a referendum on electoral reform on the same but recognising a real issue. day as the general election would cloud the debate and affect the outcome, making a yes vote less likely; he was Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): Just to exemplify right. He instead supported our proposals for a referendum the point, will the right hon. Gentleman consider Wales after the election, but within approximately 18 months and the spectre of three elections being held there? We of the legislation gaining Royal Assent, which meant waited a long time for our referendum date from the that the most likely date would have been October 2011. previous Government, but it did not come. Now, under That course of action would not have delivered the this Government, we are finally getting it. There is a savings that that combination with a general election prospect of three elections in Wales—the National Assembly would have provided, but, given the importance of the referendum, the Assembly elections, and the AVreferendum. decision in question, it was a fairer and more constitutional What effect does he believe that will have on turnout, way of proceeding. That was his view back then, but we and does it not necessitate that at least one of those know that it has changed. elections be held on the same day? Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab): For clarification, will my right hon. Friend make something absolutely Sadiq Khan: The best that I can do for the hon. clear? When the Deputy Prime Minister opposed having Gentleman is to quote from the evidence that the excellent a referendum on the alternative vote on the same day as Select Committee on Political and Constitutional Reform the general election, was that before or after he was received, which said: given a ministerial salary, a ministerial car, a ministerial “There should be no distraction from the national assembly private office and the accompanying prestige? election. That is why we have agreed with other parties in the Assembly that our own referendum should not be held on the same day as the Assembly elections.” Sadiq Khan: My hon. Friend has made his point. The important point is that for very good reasons I hope that all Members, whether for or against a the Assembly has decided not to have its referendum on change from the first-past-the-post system to the alternative the same day as the election, because it does not want to vote, agree that if we hold a referendum on the voting blur the issues. It would be counter-productive for there system, it is imperative that that referendum is transparent, to be three, or two, elections in the early part of 2011; it clear and understandable to the British people and that would be confusing and blur the issues. the result is invulnerable to any charges of illegitimacy. I fear that the timetable for the referendum proposed by the Bill will fail on each of those counts. So I urge Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): I rise to agree and to coalition Front Benchers to listen to the concerns being make exactly the same point. I disagree with the hon. articulated by people of all political persuasions about Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams): if the fatigue the dangers of a clash between the referendum and argument carries any weight, the Welsh electorate will local and national elections, which, as we must not already be fatigued, as we have our own referendum on forget, are due to take place in some places but not in 3 March, which is a very strong argument for having the others. other referendum on some other date. In Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland, numerous warnings have now been given about the danger of Sadiq Khan: Another explanation for combining the combining the referendum with elections to the various referendum with the elections on 5 May is that it would devolved institutions. Those warnings have highlighted save costs, and that justification is persuasive. However, that holding simultaneous polls risks confusing voters there is a problem with that argument as well. The great and muddying political debate. That is not a patronising reformer, the Deputy Prime Minister, would sound a view from Westminster politicians; it is the view of the little more convincing on that issue if he had demonstrated devolved Executives. In Scotland especially, there is, as some consistency in the past. Last year, when there was has been said, concern about the unhappy experience of a clamour from electoral reformists for a referendum on coupled elections in 2007, which gave rise to significant AV to be held on the same day as the general election, numbers of spoiled ballot papers, and that experience he was passionately opposed to it. The same money that could be repeated. The hon. Member for Epping Forest the coalition Government are keen to save next May (Mrs Laing) referred to Ron Gould, who recommended could have been saved this May, had the referendum against combining polls. been held on the same day as the general election, which would have meant a potential turnout of not 84% but Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): If there 100%. were overwhelming public pressure for a change in the voting system, one could understand the reason for Mrs Laing: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for holding the referendum as soon as possible. How many giving way again. Does he agree that if the cost to the letters has my right hon. Friend received from constituents taxpayer—the public purse—at this very difficult economic recommending any change? time were really uppermost in the mind of the Deputy Prime Minister, we would not be having a referendum at Sadiq Khan: To be fair to the coalition Government, all? if one believes in reforming the constitution, the only criterion cannot be how full one’s mailbag or computer Sadiq Khan: The hon. Lady makes a good point with inbox is. I accept that sometimes one has to lead the which many colleagues agree, but I shall move on. debate, even if the public are not quite there. My 215 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 216 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill problem is this: accepting my hon. Friend’s premise for Labour party had won 10 more seats and there had a second, if the public are not clamouring for a change been a Lib-Lab Government. However, we will never in the voting system, one would assume that the coalition know—the past is another country. We are where we Government, and the partner in that coalition that are, and we have to look at the situation that we have. I wants the change the most, would want more time to am tempted just to adopt the arguments given by my build up momentum and create a snowball effect, to hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex provide more education on the process and to achieve a (Mr Jenkin), who made a first-rate speech, but there is a yes vote. The fact that they have not done so raises more danger that we might complicate matters. questions than answers. There are clearly a lot of political calculations going on, and I do not really know why this is such a macho Thomas Docherty: The point was made before about issue for the Government, or why everything is being spoiled ballot papers. Is my right hon. Friend aware that rolled out to win the vote tonight, as the Government there were 147,000 spoiled ballot papers in the Scottish undoubtedly will. I am not sure why the Deputy Prime elections in 2007? Minister is so keen for the referendum to be on the same day as other elections. I suspect that there was a political Sadiq Khan: What compounds that excellent intervention calculation in the beginning. We can dismiss the argument is that just today, the Liberal Democrat MSP for that the reason why the Deputy Prime Minister wants Dunfermline West, who was part of the committee that to have the referendum on the same day is that he wants looked into the 2007 election, said: to save money. We can accept that that is a canard, as it “I am determined that this confusion be avoided at all costs for was not his primary motivation. After all, the cost of a next year’s election to the Scottish Parliament. I am therefore general election is some £80 million, and there is no very much against the inclusion of a referendum on the same day doubt that if an AV system were introduced, that cost as the Scottish elections!” would rise steeply, as enormous costs would be tied up I have not found anyone so far—even the Deputy Prime in the whole process of redistribution and cutting Minister, who is not here today—who is in favour of the number of seats. It simply does not wash that the coupling the two events. This is not about whether the primary motivation for having the referendum on the British public can cope with one or two issues at a time; same day is the cost. There must have been some it is about ensuring that the issues are properly aired. political reason, and I presume that that reason was The problems do not stop there. If the referendum is that the Deputy Prime Minister thought that he would combined with the other poll, there will be complications have more chance of winning the AV referendum if it regarding the funding limits for political parties and for were held on the same day. the referendum campaigns. To compound matters, an additional concern has been raised about the problem 7pm of differential turnout, given that some parts of the For me, however, that is not the primary issue. Some country—notably London—have no separate elections people might think that I support my hon. Friends, the in May 2011. That makes live the issue of thresholds, nationalist amendment or what was said by the right which otherwise would not be an issue in the referendum. hon. Member for Tooting because I have calculated that Some argue that one of the virtues of combining the if the referendum were held on a different day, I would referendum with other polls is the likelihood of an be more likely to win—or, in other words, that people increased turnout, but the logic of that argument works like me would be more likely to defeat AV—but that is both ways, in that there could be lower turnouts where not the issue. The issue concerns what is right. The issue no elections are taking place on the same day. Do we is not whether people support or oppose AV, but that on really want to have debates on the legitimacy of the a matter of major constitutional change, the argument referendum after the event? I hope that hon. Members must be out in the open. who have tabled amendments will ensure that there is a For better or worse, this country has had a first-past- proper debate on that theme and that other hon. Members the-post system for many generations, and it has ensured have listened to the issues that have been raised. Depending that we are the only country in Europe that has never on what happens later this evening, I might decide not been a police state or had a police state imposed on us. to press our amendment to a vote. It has ensured that this has generally been a freedom-loving Concern has been expressed that 3.5 million eligible and democratic nation, yet we are changing all that. voters are not on the register. Rushing to have the The issue is so important that, irrespective of whether referendum in less than seven months’ time reduces the people are for or against AVor proportional representation, chance of those people getting on the register and the arguments must be properly aired. taking part. That is yet another reason why we say, “Decouple the referendum from 5 May, allow further Dr Julian Lewis: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I time for the work to be carried out, and allow—for wonder whether he noticed the curious item in yesterday’s those of us who are progressives and want to see a The Times, which suggested that certain Conservative change in the voting system—a real coalition, rather Members were no longer going to support amendments than the shabby deal done by this coalition Government such as his, because calculations had been done by the behind closed doors over those five or six days”. chief executive of the NO2AVcampaign that having the referendum on the same day might actually assist the no Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): It is a pleasure vote. I assure whoever made those calculations that I to follow the right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq would be just as determined to vote against having the Khan). I pretty well agreed with everything that he said referendum on the same day if I believed that it would in his excellent speech, but I wonder whether he might advantage the no campaign as I would if I thought that have been giving a slightly different speech today if the it would advantage the yes campaign. 217 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 218 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Mr Leigh: Exactly. place to visit and regards were sent to the hon. Member There was a meeting yesterday—perhaps I am giving for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil), who was on away what was discussed in a private meeting, but so last year’s trip. It might help the Committee to know what, as it adds interest to the debate—and someone that millions and millions of dollars are spent on each from the no campaign came along and said, “Well, we individual question put forward. Given that we rightly have done all our calculations and we think that we are have restrictions on how much each side can spend, now perhaps more likely to win if the referendum is on does the hon. Gentleman agree that this is one more the same day because the C2 vote is likely to be in our reason why it should be a stand-alone vote? favour”—but who cares? Stuff these sorts of arguments. When we pressed this man, he was not able to adduce Mr Leigh: That is a very good point and the hon. any firm evidence one way or the other. The fact is that Gentleman referred earlier to another one about the nobody knows whether their side of the argument is number of spoiled ballot papers in the Scottish elections. more likely to win on 5 May or 2 June or whatever. If I were a Scottish MP, I would be angry about what is Surely what is important is that the arguments around going on. We in this national Parliament are hijacking AV are complex. I know that you would immediately their election, when a very large amount of what is now rule me out of order, Mr Hood, if I started rehearsing decided for Scotland is decided by the Scottish Parliament. all the arguments in favour of or against AV. I am sure If I were a Scottish person, I would be angry, given that that the Committee accepts, however, that at first sight there is this concentration of media interest and writing the issue looks quite easy. It might be said, “Well, we in London, where no election at all is taking place, and have this first-past-the-post system, which is clearly not the entire media will be focused on the AV issue. That proportional and seems unfair to one party, the Liberal would detract from the attention that should be paid to party, which gets many more votes nationally than can Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. be justified by the number of seats it gets in this House, so we should have a fairer system.” At first sight, then, Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): I am someone might think, “Well, I am a progressive and fair delighted that the hon. Gentleman has remembered person”—actually, the Committee might not agree that that Northern Ireland has two elections set for the I am a progressive and fair person, but I can be if I try, month of May—the local government elections and the as I do occasionally, to behave myself—“and should Assembly elections. One Government supporter said a accept the change.” Looking at the issue in more detail, few moments ago, “Well, one of those can be set aside.” however, it gets more difficult. That is arrogance. Those elections are already set, and it is important that we can carry on with our democratic A document from the Library details how an individual process. election might pan out, which might lead us all to start scratching our heads. Do we all know that the Government’s Mr Leigh: There has not yet been enough debate favoured option is for “optional preferential voting”? today about Northern Ireland—or, indeed, about Wales— How many members of the public have got their heads but the arguments are all the same. The fact is that around “optional preferential voting”? Indeed, how 39 million people will vote on the first Thursday of May many Members in their places in Committee now—apart in the parliamentary elections, the Assembly elections from the lone Liberal or couple of Liberals, whom we and local elections. I repeat that 39 million people will know to be anoraks—understand it? We all know, of be involved. Why should those important elections, course, that the optional preferential voting system is an which are crucial to the regions and nations of our AV system that does not require the voter to give country, be subsumed into this referendum? preferences for every candidate, but there are other AV It is incumbent on the Government to provide an systems, and those arguments have to be teased out. argument. They should not try to pull the wool over our Would it be fairer to force people to vote for every eyes about money. This is not about money; it is about candidate? Would it be fairer to have the system used in something else. There are many other and better ways the London mayoral elections, where one or two candidates of doing this. The Government should listen to the are voted for? Or should we vote for the system that the arguments adduced in Committee, which are overwhelming. Government are proposing? As we can start to see, the The overwhelming argument is that we should debate issues are complicated. Should we not therefore have a the issue calmly and sensibly, that the argument should chance to tease out these issues over three or four be rolled out and that the people can make the decision. weeks, given that we are changing the entire way of Let right be done; let us have a referendum on a voting for the House of Commons? different day. Dr Julian Lewis: Or hopefully not. Thomas Docherty: I am grateful for the opportunity Mr Leigh: Or hopefully not changing it, as my hon. to speak to amendment 1, tabled by me and some Friend has said. 40 other Opposition Members representing all four It does not necessarily help the argument to question nations of the United Kingdom. I am conscious that what happens in Australia, Finland or the USA. It is many Members wish to speak and that time is, thanks what happens here that is important, because we care to the programming, restricted. I will therefore restrict about this place and we want to create our own system, my remarks to two aspects of the amendment: why we which we want to be discussed and understood by the tabled it, and why the date of 8 September 2011 was public. We also want to make a judgment that will be chosen. considered fair. Mr Davidson: Is my hon. Friend aware that 8 September Thomas Docherty: I have just returned from the British- is my birthday? On the last such occasion the Government American parliamentary group visit to the US, with promised me two aircraft carriers, and I look forward to colleagues from all parties. [Interruption.] It is an excellent the upholding of that promise. 219 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 220 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Thomas Docherty: I greatly appreciate my hon. Friend’s the turnout for those elections will be nowhere near contribution. Yet again, he has managed to introduce that—which, again, reinforces my argument about the an issue that is important to people in both our level playing field. constituencies. Let me stress that amendment 1 is not a wrecking Mr Stewart Jackson: I am happy to take lessons from amendment, although some members of the Government the hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones). may wish to portray it as such. It is supported by Having been a London borough councillor for eight Members on both sides of the argument about the years, I am sure that we can discuss our knowledge and alternative vote. It is not intended to, nor will it, lead to experience of various elected bodies. However, I must the killing of the AV referendum; it merely seeks to disabuse the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West create a level and fair playing field for the referendum, Fife (Thomas Docherty) of his belief that I was making and to demonstrate the respect that the House should his point for him. The point that I was making was that have for the devolved Administrations of the United the people of London were quite able to make decisions Kingdom. in respect of the election of London borough councillors and long-term constitutional decisions, by way of a As Members will know, it is rare for an issue to unite referendum, on the same day. That is the point that the Labour and Scottish National party politicians, and hon. Gentleman is avoiding. rarer still for them to be joined by Welsh and Northern Irish colleagues. However, that is the feat that the Deputy Thomas Docherty: As I am sure my nationalist colleagues Prime Minister has managed to achieve, and I am will remind me, I should be nervous about making the grateful for his ability to bring us all together in that mistake of, perhaps inadvertently, comparing the Scottish spirit. The amendment seeks to address the genuine Parliament to a parish council. I urge the hon. Gentleman, anger that is felt in the three devolved Administrations. as part of the respect agenda, to tread carefully when The fact that a joint letter has been sent by the three making analogies between borough councils and the First Ministers to the Deputy Prime Minister expressing Scottish Parliament. that anger should not be forgotten. 7.15 pm Mr Stewart Jackson: I am listening carefully to the Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): Does my hon. hon. Gentleman’s argument. He clearly concedes that Friend agree that to suggest that holding elections and a the electoral arrangements and voting systems which referendum on the same day is confusing constitutes may change in future will apply to Scotland, Wales and not a condemnation of the electorate, but simply a Northern Ireland. Will he also concede that there is a recognition that we need to have a debate on such an precedent for the Government’s legislation? In 1998 important issue? The very fact of elections to the National there was a referendum on future constitutional Assembly for Wales, or to the Scottish Parliament or arrangements and the establishment of the greater London the Northern Ireland Assembly, takes us away from the Authority and the Mayor, at the same time as the central need to have an in-depth argument about the holding of 32 separate London borough elections. pros and cons of the AV system.

Thomas Docherty: According to my recollection, all Thomas Docherty: I am grateful to my hon. Friend 32 London boroughs held elections on the same day. for making that point more eloquently than I could Regrettably, on 5 May next year elections will not be have done. I suspect that that is why he is an important held in the whole United Kingdom. I believe that there member of our Front-Bench team and I am a mere will be no elections in some 20% of England. Back Bencher, languishing and fighting my corner for aircraft carriers and others. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for reinforcing my point about the level and fair playing field. Given Let me now make a small amount of progress. I do that he has just made my argument for me, I look not intend to rehearse, or rehash, the arguments presented forward to him joining us in the Lobby. so ably by my right hon. Friend the Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) or, indeed, Members on the other Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): For the benefit side of the Committee. They have already highlighted of the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson), more than adequately the problems that occurred in could my hon. Friend explain the difference between 2007, particularly in Scotland, where 147,000 ballot local government elections in London and elections for papers were spoilt. I would, however, like to draw the the National Assembly of Wales, the Scottish Parliament Committee’s attention to some of the representations and the Northern Ireland Assembly? It is obvious that a made by a number of individuals and organisations to definition that is fairly clear to most of us has not the Scottish Affairs Committee—led by my hon. Friend travelled as far as certain green Benches. the Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson)— which, unlike the Deputy Prime Minister, actually bothered Thomas Docherty: I am grateful to my hon. Friend to ask for input on the date of the referendum from the for making that excellent point. I cannot go into great people of Scotland. deal in the short time available to me, but I can point Let us consider first the response of the Scottish out that—as I am sure my hon. Friend already knows, Government, an august body to which we should all and as Members in all parts of the Committee have accord some respect. Scottish Ministers wrote: mentioned—there have been very different turnouts. “The Scottish Government believes that the lack of consultation, Elections to the Scottish Parliament have typically attracted and the substantive decision to hold UK wide contests on the same a turnout of about 50%. I fear that, important as local day as devolved elections, shows a lack of respect for the devolved government issues are to the parts of England involved, administrations. We also believe that it undermines the integrity 221 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 222 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Thomas Docherty] a lifetime—once in a century, we hope—referendum is utterly preposterous. Those of us who have respect for of elections to the Scottish Parliament and risks voter confusion. the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish people therefore Elections to the Scottish Parliament are important to the people have every sympathy with what the hon. Gentleman is of Scotland and we believe they have the right to make their saying. electoral choices without the distraction of a parallel UK contest. Holding separate contests on one day would also create operational and practical risks for those charged with administering the Thomas Docherty: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for elections.” her kind words about the Scottish Parliament and the As Members have already pointed out, it is not just Welsh Assembly—[Interruption]—and the Northern the SNP Scottish Government who want the date changed. Ireland Assembly as well; I was coming to that. Like My current Liberal Democrat MSP—I suspect that he many good things, the Parliament can take time to grow may not still be my MSP after May—wrote on behalf of on people, but I think she will find that the Scottish his party that he was Government and Parliament is an institution well worth protecting, as are those of Wales and Northern Ireland. “very much against the inclusion of a referendum on the same day as the Scottish elections”. Hywel Williams: Clearly, the cost argument is blown He put an exclamation mark at the end, which I consider out of the water in Wales as we are to have a separate particularly important. referendum. We are going to spend money so that we Just in case the Deputy Prime Minister believes that have a separate referendum on 3 March. That gives the the opinions of other politicians should not be given the lie to the cost argument. same weight as his weighty opinion, the Minister may wish to reflect on the comments of the interim chief Thomas Docherty: I am grateful for that point. My returning officer for Scotland, Mr Tom Aitchison, who hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South (Mr Harris) has said: is present and he has usefully highlighted the fact that in “Combining the polls will require additional staffing at polling the last three months the Deputy Prime Minister’s own stations and additional ballot boxes. This appears to be a costs have risen from £80 million to £100 million—a straightforward matter, but there is much scope for confusion and sign of inflation going mad within the coalition. misallocation of ballot papers. Simply sourcing and procuring sufficient ballot boxes is also a matter that is concerning the The second reason for suggesting an alternative date electoral community.” is in order to ensure that there is the fairest possible Mr Aitchison went on to say: ballot. As I mentioned in response to an earlier intervention, not all parts of the United Kingdom will be holding “with three ballot boxes from each polling station (two for the Parliamentary election and one for the referendum) there is likely elections on 5 May 2011. Large swathes of England to be a situation in which each box must be sifted and possibly have no elections scheduled. Recent history shows that verified before any of the three counts can commence. This will in such circumstances turnout in the Scottish, Welsh require an investment in time, space and staffing adding to the and Northern Irish elections is significantly higher than cost” in places in England that are holding purely local —which, apparently, so concerns those on the Front government or mayoral elections. If the referendum is Bench— held on the same day therefore, we will not be starting “complexity and duration of the count. Stakeholders, including from a level and equal playing field in respect of politicians and voters, need to understand that the process may participation. I and many others believe that, in effect, take longer that they might anticipate and may certainly be more those who propose the referendum in this way are expensive. Many Returning Officers may find it necessary to hire hoping to rig the methodology in their favour. larger venues for the count and indeed to hire them for an extended period to accommodate these additional processes.” Mr Leigh: I think that one of the Deputy Prime So much for the Deputy Prime Minister’s argument Minister’s calculations was that there would be a differential about cost. turnout. He calculated that there would be a greater Some Members on the other side of the Committee turnout in Scotland, as people are used to AV there, so have suggested that the Scottish parliamentary elections they would be more likely to vote in favour. That could be shifted by as little as a month, but there are argument might hit him in the back of the neck, however. two serious flaws in that suggestion. First, as Members on both sides of the Committee will recall, in 1999 the Thomas Docherty: The hon. Gentleman makes a European elections took place just one month after the valid point. Given the current Liberal Democrat poll Scottish elections. Turnout for the European elections ratings, however, I look forward to them receiving a in Scotland was a mere 26%. That, surely, is something round thumping in May, both in my area and across that no one would wish to repeat. Secondly, if saving Scotland. The Deputy Prime Minister is so out of touch money is genuinely the argument that the Deputy Prime with Scotland that he is not aware of just how unpopular Minister wishes to deploy, this suggestion of shifting he has become in the past five months. The hon. the election and all the associated costs fatally undermines Gentleman’s point about the Deputy Prime Minister’s his own logic. logic does stand, however. There are a number of specific reasons why we have Mrs Laing: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many chosen 8 September 2011. First, that would allow us of us in this House actually have some respect for the sufficient time to overcome the voter fatigue that I Scottish Parliament—I did not always, Mr Hood—and, touched upon. It would also provide for several months indeed, for the Welsh Assembly? That Parliament has a of campaigning by those of all parties in a non-party fixed date for an election, and the idea that it should political manner. Those colleagues who wish to campaign move that in order to accommodate an ad hoc, once in for a yes vote can come together without party badges 223 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 224 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill and work for that, and those colleagues who wish to There are arguments that if we have a referendum on campaign for a no vote can also come together without the same day as other elections turnout will be higher the baggage of our party affiliations. and people will be more likely to vote for AV. There are We also appreciate that there are other elections other arguments that people will be more likely to vote scheduled for spring 2012, spring 2013 and spring 2014, against AV. There are arguments about why AV might and we believe that it is important to be consistent and be good, too—although there are not many arguments logical in our approach, which rules out those slots. We that AV would be good for anyone apart from the have therefore sought to find a date that provides sufficient Liberal Democrats. There are, however, also arguments breathing space between all those elections. We are also about why any particular party might be at an advantage mindful of the advantages of good weather in ensuring or a disadvantage in respect of AV as a whole, but none strong voter turnout, and the clocks have not yet changed of us can predict that. We can look at the statistics and, in September—although I accept that a private Member’s as my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Bill that might deal with that is coming up in December. Essex (Mr Jenkin) so eloquently explained a short while That issue needs to be balanced against the argument ago, we can look at the party advantage, but this is not about clashing with school holidays; we have had many about party advantage: it is a simple matter of principle. discussions about that in the Chamber. As the hon. A democratic procedure that changes our country’s Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) constitution must be fair and be seen to be fair. If the mentioned, having the referendum in September of next result of a referendum on changing our voting system year would also provide ample opportunity for the does not command the respect it should, every subsequent six-month period of grace for the Electoral Commission general election, based on whichever system is chosen to carry out its due diligence. Finally on the argument under that referendum, will be open to question and for September, as has been mentioned, in 1997 we held challenge. There is no doubt that holding more than two referendums in September in Scotland and Wales, one election on the same day undermines confidence in very successfully with excellent turnout and a seamless the referendum, so the issue is simple: if this referendum process. That followed, in particular, a constitutional is held on any day but 5 May 2011—or any day when convention in Scotland, in which I know you played an another significant election is taking place—it will command active role, Mr Hood. more respect than if it is held on that day with other The Deputy Prime Minister claims that the idea of elections. fair votes is what motivates the referendum, but it now appears that, shamefully, the Liberal Democrats in 7.30 pm government will act unfairly in order to try to achieve I care about democracy. If we are having a referendum, their ends. It is not too late for the Deputy Prime I want it to be fair and to be seen to be fair. It is the duty Minister and the Government to do the right thing: to of this House to protect democracy by ensuring that listen to the united voice of Labour, nationalist and any referendum is fair. There are 365 days in every year, Unionist politicians across the United Kingdom and so plenty of other dates are available for us to hold a accept the rational and fair date for the referendum. referendum that would be far fairer than one held on Mrs Laing: It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member 5 May 2011. When I intervened on the right hon. for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty); he Member for Tooting, I referred to the fact it is not valid made some excellent points, and I hope the House will to argue this matter on a point of economics and saving pay attention to them. taxpayers’ money. Undoubtedly, it will cost less to hold I accept that we must have a referendum. I voted for a referendum on the same day as other elections, but are this Bill on Second Reading, and I will vote for it again we going to say in this House that what we want is a on Third Reading and subsequently. A referendum cut-price referendum and, thus, cut-price democracy? is the price we pay for the coalition, and the coalition is That is not fair to anyone, but there is another overriding the price we pay for economic stability, which is what argument. If the Deputy Prime Minister’s overriding the country needs most at the moment. However, it is concern was really cost and where the £100 million cost not for this House to submit to the dictatorship of the of this referendum could be spent elsewhere for the coalition agreement and to accept every word therein as good of the British people, there would be no referendum. being inscribed on tablets of stone. It is for this House So we have to examine this as a matter of principle. to exercise its duty to seek to improve the legislation My hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North before it. Essex set out some excellent arguments, which I shall I shall speak mainly in support of amendment 4, to not repeat, given the time available. The hon. Member which I have put my name, but other amendments in the for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) also made group are similar in principle, so I also accept the some excellent points, with which I agree. He is right to arguments for them. I am not, however, saying I could stand up for what happens in Scotland and for the possibly bring myself to vote with the right hon. Member people of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and for Tooting (Sadiq Khan). I congratulate him on his their elected Parliament and Assemblies, as they are appointment to his new position on the Front Bench, being denigrated by the way in which the Government and I look forward to our having many arguments in have put together the plans for this referendum. future. Tonight, we have been very much in agreement, This is a matter of principle, and the first duty of this but I know that he will understand that I could not House is to make sure that the workings of our democracy bring myself to vote for his proposals. However, I have are protected. A referendum must be fair and it must listened to his arguments and, as with those of the hon. command respect. Listening to the arguments here this Member for Dunfermline and West Fife, the House evening, and to those in the media, among think tanks ought to take heed of them, because this is all about and on both sides of the AV campaign, makes me principle, not party advantage. increasingly sure that holding this referendum on the 225 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 226 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill same day as other significant elections will mean that it Mrs Laing: The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. is seen to have a result that is not fair. I have never found As I have said, I, like most Members of this House, have myself in a position where I might vote differently from every respect for the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish the leadership of my party, but the leadership of my people and their right to fair democracy and fair elections. party has never been represented by a Liberal Democrat. That is why I reiterate that our first loyalty has to be to the democratic process, which makes this House and Sadiq Khan: Does the hon. Lady think that one of the our participation in it what it is, and which makes us the reasons the Deputy Prime Minister is not here is that representatives of people who have fairly and properly Conservatives might support clause 1 if he is not here to elected us to this place. We do not have cut-price democracy; make the argument? we do not have elections that are not properly run. I am very uncomfortable with the idea of having a referendum, Mrs Laing: I understand what the right hon. Gentleman which is likely to change our constitution, run in a way that is saying, but it is not for me to second-guess the is not seen to be fair. Clearly, there is an enormous Deputy Prime Minister. I merely disagree with him on number of other dates on which this referendum could this matter, and do not have any lack of respect for the be held. Therefore, in order for it to be fair and to be seen other duties he is undertaking. to be fair, and for it to command the respect that we need it to command in order to protect our democracy, Thomas Docherty: The hon. Lady might recall that which gives us the authority to sit in this House of earlier this year the Deputy Prime Minister told the Commons, it must be held on a different day from House that this measure was not going to be a deal 5 May 2011. breaker. Any Conservatives labouring under the misapprehension that he will take his ball and sulk if he Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): The Alliance does not get his way will know that this will not bring party would generally support reform of the voting down the coalition, however much Labour Members system, with the reservation that the Bill is about changing wish that day to come soon. to AVproportionality, rather than full single transferrable vote proportionality, which would be our preference. Mrs Laing: I take the point that the hon. Gentleman However, we have significant reservations about the makes, and I recall very well, as I am sure the House date proposed for the referendum. does, what the Deputy Prime Minister said when he was In Northern Ireland, 5 May 2011 is already set in answering that very question at the Dispatch Box. The legislation as the date of the Northern Ireland Assembly Deputy Prime Minister is absolutely right to expect that elections, and it is also the date for the local government there will be a referendum—there will be one—but its elections, so two elections are already taking place on terms and the date on which it is held are a different that day. The review of public administration in Northern matter. I wish to protect him from the position in which Ireland has led to the date of the local government he finds himself, because I am sure that he would also elections being changed once already, and the Secretary wish this referendum to be fair and to be seen to be fair. of State recently indicated to us that any question mark If he were here to listen to these arguments, he might hanging over 5 May as the date of local government change his mind and decide that in order to have a fair elections has pretty much been removed, so it is now almost referendum it would be better to hold it on a date other a certainty that both elections will be held on 5 May. than 5 May 2011. I can understand the argument that some may put that having the referendum at the same time as other Sir Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough) (Lab): I congratulate elections will increase voter participation, but I disagree; the hon. Lady on her speech, which is holding the while turnout may be increased in parts of the country attention of the Committee and, like the best speeches, where there are other elections on the same day, comes from the heart. May I suggest, by way of gentle participation is not the same as turnout. The question is persuasion, that instead of saying that she might vote the degree to which members of the public and voters against her Government, she say that she will do so? are able to engage on the subject matter of the election, and not simply whether they are able to turn out and Mrs Laing: Of course the hon. Gentleman may suggest vote. Participation will be interfered with if three elections that to me, and I am examining my conscience carefully are run at the same time. in that respect. I have a lot of respect for him and he is doing well in persuading me. I am sure that he would be Having adequate time and space for a public debate the first, among most Members in the Chamber this about constitutional change is hugely important. Debate evening, to agree with me that our first loyalty must be on the substance of the proposed changes will be interfered not to our party, but to this House, to the democratic with if, on the same day, we run the Northern Ireland process and to the workings of our democracy, which Assembly elections, which are hugely important to the have made ours the strong, great and fair country that it people in Northern Ireland, and local government elections, is. Our first loyalty must be to this Parliament, which which have an enormous impact on people’s daily lives. has exported its fair and decent way of doing things and There has been some debate about which election spread democracy around the world. would overshadow which. I believe that in Northern Ireland there will be little appetite for a debate on the Pete Wishart: The hon. Lady mentions democracy referendum. People and, to a greater extent, politicians and her point is spot on. How dare this mouse of a will be more concerned about the substance of elections measure—this splinter of a suggestion—get in the way to the Northern Ireland Assembly and to local government. of the clear choice of the Scottish people? Surely that is However, even if the reverse proved true, it would not be a democratic outrage. We should have a free and fair good for democracy. The elections and the referendum election to decide who will be the Scottish Government, should be separated, so that people can give their full not this nonsense that is in the way, muddying the water. attention to the substantive issues that are up for debate. 227 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 228 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill In addition to the issue of ensuring that people get to the representations made by Royal Mail about the the full opportunity to participate in debate, there are complexities of delivering all the campaign material. If serious logistical issues, some of which have already we have not just two local elections but a referendum on been raised this evening. One that causes considerable the same day, the need to deliver all the relevant election concern is that if local government elections, regional material to all the relevant people will place the people Assembly elections and a referendum coincide, there at Royal Mail under particular stress. The election will be not simply three different elections but potentially material will be less likely to assist voters with their three different groups of valid electors turning up at choice than to simply bury them under a deluge of polling stations to cast their votes—groups with different information. I suspect that voters will not engage as identification requirements. fully with any of the elections, given the amount of That may cause confusion among voters and those material that they will receive daily for all three elections. who have to administer the system on the day. It is likely to lead to congestion at polling stations, and to fairly Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Does the hon. serious disputes. There is precedent for that; we have Lady agree that it is a logistical nightmare to have two had Westminster and local council elections on the elections and a referendum on one day? There might be same day, and found that some people were eligible to three boxes when one goes to the polling station. In vote in one election and not the other, or that the some polling stations, there will be 20 or 25 boxes for information that they received about what is valid different electoral areas. Logistically, counting the votes identification for one election did not hold true for the will be a nightmare from beginning to end. other. Our party has made significant representations to the Electoral Commission on that matter. If we Naomi Long: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I confuse that situation by adding the complexities of a would go further: the problem is not just events on the referendum, we are putting too much pressure on those day; accounting for expenditure on each of the three who administer the system. elections, and managing to keep that expenditure separate enough to satisfy electoral rules, will prove challenging 7.45 pm during the campaign. There is also an issue to do with the suitability and I want to reiterate a point that has been raised about flexibility of the polling stations. Much has been made the opportunity for cross-party co-operation. Those of the economic benefit of having all the elections on who support electoral reform may want to form a yes the same day, but there are also potential costs. Some of campaign, and those who are opposed may want to the polling stations that we use would simply not be form a no campaign. Their ability to do so is significantly suitable for use in three very different elections. We inhibited if the local government and Assembly elections would be required to have a much more complex are on the same day as the referendum, because people arrangement to ensure that only those eligible to vote in will be in full party election mode in the run-up to the each separate election could do so, and do so smoothly date. The effectiveness of any yes or no campaign in and without confusion. areas where there are other elections taking place at the same time will be significantly diminished. The media issue has already been well addressed. In the national media, the focus will undoubtedly be on I support the moves being made to reform the electoral the referendum, but in the local media the referendum system, but the date should be reconsidered. I do not will be entirely eclipsed by the local elections. That issue believe that 5 May is an appropriate date. I do not needs to be considered. believe that there was significant consultation with regional Administrations about how having the referendum on Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): The that day would impact on their area. The issue should hon. Lady will be aware that people who were born in be thought through again to ensure that the fullest, the Republic of Ireland but who reside in Northern frankest and most open debate can take place, and to Ireland are eligible to vote in local and Assembly elections, ensure that when the electorate come to the ballot box, but not in national parliamentary elections or a referendum. they are fully informed of why they are there. The same applies, of course, to migrant workers who come to Northern Ireland. Is that not a recipe for Dr Julian Lewis: As my hon. Friend the Member for confusion on the day? Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) made clear, it is a very serious step to vote against the leadership of one’s party Naomi Long: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for for the first time. It will not come as a surprise to those his contribution, because all the evidence suggests that in the Whip’s Office to hear that I shall be doing that that is exactly the case. When we have had national and today, because I informed them in advance that that local elections on the same day, it has caused confusion was the decision that I reached. In fairness to them, about who could vote in which election. It has also with their typical liberality, they have not sought to put caused distress when people have turned up expecting any pressure on me to dissuade me. [Interruption.] to be able to cast their vote but have found themselves They genuinely have not. unable to do so because they were not a qualified What I really regret is that I shall be voting in such a elector in that particular election. I agree with him way when the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, entirely that that is an unnecessary confusion to visit on my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean the staff who administer the elections and those who (Mr Harper), is at the Dispatch Box. He smiled as he turn out to vote. heard me mention his name. He, at least, is aware that I I also want to raise the issue of campaign material, have had the pleasure of attending the weddings of only and I speak as someone who has experience of elections two hon. Members. One was Mr Speaker’s and the being held on the same day. I have listened very carefully other was my hon. Friend’s, even before he was elected 229 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 230 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Dr Julian Lewis] Thomas Docherty: There has been some speculation as to the whereabouts of the Deputy Prime Minister. to this House. I have no doubt that my hon. Friend will He was spotted just a few moments ago walking past reach every bit as eminent a position as Mr Speaker, but the Chamber. We can but hope that he will shortly join I fear that it will not be on the strength of the arguments us to take part in this debate. that we will hear from him today. The shadow Secretary of State said from the Dispatch Dr Lewis: I would not bet the farm on it. One of the Box that he was puzzled to learn that the Government depressing aspects of the debate, being a touch more were going for the option of holding the referendum on serious for a moment, is that we are debating the an important constitutional issue on the same day as proposal only because it is a Lib Dem self-interested party political elections. I am glad to see him re-entering obsession. Liberal Democrat Members have not even the Chamber in time for me to assist him by answering had the guts to come here in any significant numbers to the question that he put. There is a simple answer: it is speak up for those policies on which they insist. They because the Liberal Democrats insist on it. The Conservative are the originators of this mischief, and they are now party would not have dreamt of putting forward this doing the Cheshire cat act and letting my hon. Friend ghastly proposal to substitute the alternative vote for the Parliamentary Secretary have the sticky end of the first past the post in any other circumstance, and it is wicket of trying to defend the indefensible. being jerked about by its coalition partner. Sadiq Khan: Some of us are advocates of AV and Mr Davidson: What the hon. Gentleman has just said would campaign for a yes vote. Does the hon. Gentleman is extremely important—if it is correct. He is saying that appreciate how let down we feel that the actions of the the AV referendum and the elections are being held on Deputy Prime Minister make it difficult for us to coalesce the same day at the behest of the Liberal Democrats. a campaign and get support for a yes vote, because on That is immensely helpful. It would be helpful to the the day of the referendum candidates will be standing Committee if he would make clear what evidence he has on the Liberal Democrat ticket? That will make it very that the referendum is to be held on the same day as the difficult for us to canvass in the days and weeks preceding elections solely at the insistence of the forces of darkness. the elections. It pains me to say this, because I was Dr Lewis: I have very good circumstantial evidence. If looking forward to working with the Minister and the it were left to the Conservatives, they would not wish Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, the hon. Member this issue to be on the agenda at all; it is part of the price for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) on other issues, but our for the formation of the coalition Government. Also, ability to do so has been hindered by the way in which once it became clear that this bad idea of a coincidence the Bill has been drafted and the proceedings on it have of dates was to be implemented, it was said time and been conducted. again in the press without contradiction—in a way, the hon. Gentleman anticipates the remainder of my speech— Dr Lewis: I shall give a slightly pragmatic answer. that the reason was to improve the possibility of a yes Frankly, as long as hon. Members on both sides of the vote. As the Conservatives, from the leader of our party House work for whatever reason one way or another to down, have been explicit that we want a no vote, it is defeat such an unwelcome change in our electoral system, hardly likely that they, albeit reluctantly putting forward I for one shall be extremely happy. the idea for a referendum in the first place for the sake Liberal Democrats are not known for their consistency, of the coalition, would insist on holding it on the same and that was well illustrated by the shadow Secretary of date for the reason that it was likely to get the result that State when he revealed something that I did not know: they apparently do not want. I say apparently because that the Deputy Prime Minister previously opposed in naturally I believe implicitly everything that the leadership principle holding a referendum on the same day as a of my party tells me, and therefore I am sure that it does general election. At least there would be some sort of not want us to change the voting system. level playing field if a referendum were on the same day Mr Davidson: That was a yes, then. The elections and as a general election. What is so iniquitous about this the referendum are being held on the same day solely at proposal is that all sorts of elections will be held on the the insistence of the Liberal Democrats. same day in different parts of the country using different systems; and in some parts of the country no elections Dr Lewis: The hon. Gentleman knows that I much will be held at all. That is unfair and discreditable. I admire his tenacity, his persistence and especially his believe that the idea of the differential turnout was part devotion to the aircraft carriers, which I share, but I and parcel of the scheme for proposing the coincidence have to tell him that, for some strange reason, the leader of dates because it was believed that it would help of the Liberal Democrats does not tend to take me into achieve a yes vote. his confidence when it comes to his reasons on issues of this sort. All I have been able to give the hon. Gentleman We had a lively exchange earlier about whether the is my judgment of the situation as I see it. It seems to coincidence of dates would help the yes vote or the no me that the only logical explanation for insisting on the vote, but the most important thing is not that it might coincidence of dates is that it is believed that the fact help one side or the other. The important thing is that, that major elections will be going on in parts of the if an issue is vital enough that it deserves a referendum, country where people are used to electoral systems it is essential that that referendum should not be adulterated other than first past the post makes it more likely that by party political cross-cutting issues on the same day. there will be a higher turnout in those areas and the One reason why political coalitions in peacetime generally people there will be more amenable to voting yes to a do not have good reputations is their propensity to do change in the electoral system. I am glad to see a dodgy deals behind closed doors. This proposal is the number of hon. Members indicating their assent. outcome of such a deal. It is intellectually and morally 231 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 232 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill indefensible. It will not be a pleasure to vote for the first Julian Smith: It is important to clarify the fact that time today against my party leadership on an issue of the Scottish Affairs Committee did not take any view principle. I hope that I will not be wasting my time and on the proposal, and I hope that its Chairman can that people on the Government Benches will find it in clarify that. their hearts to do a good deed today and put maximum pressure on the Government to abandon a thoroughly Mr Davidson: I think that the hon. Gentleman has dishonourable bit of political fixing. I wish I could just entered the Chamber, so he may have missed my think of some other words to describe it, but I cannot. saying that we agreed that we would not take a position; This is what happens when parties get together and otherwise I would be speaking to that position. However, start tinkering with the rules of the game. We may play we took the view that it was important—indeed, vital—that on different sides in the game, but we ought to respect political stakeholders in Scotland should be consulted the rules. The proposal to hold the referendum on the by somebody, because that had not been done by the same day as differential party political elections is an Government, so we gave people the opportunity to attempt to bend the rules, and we should have no part express their views. I am glad that in such a short time of it. many strong views were expressed. To be fair, some people expressed one view and other people another, 8pm but there is an opportunity for all those views to inform Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op): the debate. The hon. Gentleman will agree that it is May I first make some remarks as Chairman of the regrettable that we have not had longer to discuss those Select Committee on Scottish Affairs? We held a seminar views. with the Electoral Commission, in which the point was Speaking as the hon. Member for Glasgow South made very strongly by Members of Parliament representing West, I was initially agnostic about AV, and in many Scottish constituencies who were also Members of the ways I remain agnostic about the principle of AV. I Scottish Parliament that the Scottish Parliament was oppose the single transferable vote and other forms of absolutely and utterly outraged by the fact that there proportional representation, but I could live quite easily had been no consultation on the proposal to hold the with AV. I am much more concerned about the context AV referendum and Scottish elections on the same day. in which the proposal has been introduced. It was not in They also indicated that the Scottish Parliament had my party’s manifesto, so it must be a good thing and been made aware of the fact that that was the widespread should be supported. [Interruption.] It is early in the political view in Scotland. The matter certainly had not Parliament. I am in favour of the principle of a referendum, been drawn to our attention quite so forcefully in other but it was never proposed in my party’s manifesto that it arenas as Members of the Westminster Parliament, but should be held on the same day as the Scottish elections. we decided that the best way to explore it was to test the There has been some interesting illumination of why waters by seeking a consultation. Because of the time that is the case by the hon. Member for New Forest East scale, that would not involve the Committee coming to (Dr Lewis). a firm conclusion one way or the other on the merits of I want to make my views known on two points: why the case, but it would allow Scottish public opinion to we are having the referendum, and why so soon. As the express its views. We would post that on and put it hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) made before Members of Parliament in the Chamber to inform clear, the Conservatives have agreed—I am sorry if I am their discussions. I am glad that many Members have not quoting her exactly—that the referendum was the read that evidence, and have drawn on it in their price they had to be pay for tackling the economic crisis. contributions. To put it in simpler language, it is the reward to the It is regrettable that the evidence was made available Liberals for supporting Tory cuts. That is basically why only yesterday, and I apologise for that. I understand this is happening. Cuts would not go through and that some Members have not seen it at all. I can only would not necessarily command a majority in the House hope that more attention will be given to it by the other if the Conservatives did not have the support of the place, which will have the opportunity to refer more Liberal Democrats, who have signed up to a vicious set clearly to the views that have been expressed to us by of proposals on cuts and public expenditure to obtain Scottish stakeholders and by political opinion. the reward of a referendum on AV. It is also worth drawing Members’ attention to the The referendum is coming soon, because the Liberals fact that when the Committee met the Scottish Parliament’s trust the Conservatives no more than the rest of us, and Local Government and Communities Committee on an they want to make sure that they are getting the reward informal basis, that multi-party Committee was unanimous sooner rather than later, lest they are simply fobbed off in wishing to see the date changed. It wanted the AV and it does not arrive at all. They do not want to be referendum to be transferred from 5 May to another taken for mugs, so they want to make sure that the date—it did not specify when. It felt, as one of the opportunities for the referendum are pressed quickly Members said, “We were here first,” as the timetable before negative publicity attracts too much opprobrium. had already been set for the Scottish election, so the In those circumstances, the fact the AV referendum is electoral test, which was proposed afterwards, should taking place as a reward for Tory cuts means that be shifted. I am glad to have the opportunity to draw certainly in Scotland big campaigns will be run on the that to hon. Members’ attention. basis of saying no to the Tory cuts, no to the coalition’s dirty deals, and no to AV. Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? The way in which that will spill over into the Scottish elections will undoubtedly be beneficial to my own Mr Davidson: I am happy to give way to another party. It will be immensely damaging, thank goodness, member of the Committee. to the Liberals. The Conservatives, who are essentially 233 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 234 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Mr Davidson] also be—a point that she did not touch on particularly— confusion about costs. There will be two elections in irrelevant in Scotland, will not suffer much damage, Scotland, one for the first-past-the-post seats and one because they cannot go much further down. No one can for the list seats, and then there will be referendum. argue in those circumstances that holding the referendum People involved in both those elections will be campaigning and the elections together will not contaminate the on behalf of their parties in both elections and on the Scottish elections. Admittedly, that benefits my party—and yes and no side, and there will be cross-cutting cleavages. I look forward to that—but it means that the AVreferendum The process of allocating expenditure will be almost will not be conducted on its own merits. impossible, I should have thought. Returning to the lack of consultation with stakeholders, Many of us in Scotland are aware—I am glad to see I am genuinely shocked by the fact that the coalition in his place the right hon. Member for Ettrick, Lauderdale Government chose, as far as I am aware, not to ask and Tweeddale—is it? anyone in the Scottish Parliament or in civic Scotland what they thought of the idea of having the AVreferendum David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and and the Scottish parliamentary elections on the same Tweeddale) (Con) indicated dissent. day. That was entirely a top-down decision. We have heard a great deal about a new politics. [Interruption.] I Mr Davidson: Ettrick, Tweeddale and Lauderdale? am not sure whether that was an approving heckle, or No? Well, whatever seat he has, it is quite a big and just a heckle, but I accept that the Member concerned is complicated seat to describe, which is perhaps an excuse demonstrating that he is still alive. The fact that there as to why he was unable to fill in his expenses properly. was no consultation or discussion at all very much One can imagine how difficult it will be in that constituency harks back to the old politics of drive and control, and when not only are they filling in the expenses for the shows immense contempt for the Scottish Parliament, first-past-the-post seat and the list seat, but the referendum the Welsh Assembly and—[Interruption]—the Northern as well. I wish him well in resolving his difficulties, but Irish Assembly; I knew that there was another one. To one can imagine the problems there being replicated all add insult to injury, it is my understanding that the over the country, with the scope for legal actions and AV referendum will be described as the senior poll to be threats. They are enormous. On those grounds alone, if given priority when decisions are made about counting, there were not so many other grounds to do so, we publicity and all these other things. should be supporting the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) and To hold Scottish parliamentary elections on the same opposing the idea of having these elections on the day as the AV referendum is bad enough, but we have same day. been told that those elections will be subsidiary to the referendum, which no one particularly wants. It is not Nick Boles: It is with great nervousness that I rise to the first choice of anybody, as far as I am aware. It is speak, because we have heard so many brilliant speeches— coming about simply because of the shabby, shoddy sincere, passionate, beautifully constructed speeches—from and disgraceful deal that I described earlier. That really senior Members. I think in particular of my hon. Friends is an insult— the Members for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin), for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh)—my own particular Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): It was in colleague in Lincolnshire—for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) your manifesto. and for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing). We have also heard some passionate, well argued contributions, in particular Mr Davidson: We were never promising it on the from Members who represent parties in the other great same day. nations of the United Kingdom than the one from Let me deal with the question of contamination. which I come. It is with perhaps even greater nervousness Many previous speakers have indicated the way in which that I speak as a new Member of the House, here for they believe the debate will be contaminated in Scotland only a few months, when so many distinguished people, because of the spill-over. As time goes on, the main who have sat on these Benches for five, 10, 15 or 20 focus of debate will not be on the minutiae of the years, speak against the Bill and in favour of the AV referendum, it will be on the impact when the amendments. AV referendum is lost by the Liberals. Will the coalition It seems that I will be the lone voice on these Benches split? What price will they then demand as a reward, to speak in favour of the Government’s proposals and because what they got as a reward before will have come against the amendments. This debate, which we have all to naught? That will be a matter of immense focus, sat in now for more than four hours, has been a classic certainly in Scotland, and I am sure elsewhere. The case of politicians talking to politicians about matters collapse of the coalition only a year into a Government that interest only politicians and that matter not a jot to will be of considerable significance, not only in Scotland, the people whom we are meant to represent. It is but in Britain and across the world. That will be the entirely understandable that this debate should be of main focus of attention and will overwhelm the coverage such great moment to politicians, because we are discussing of the Scottish election. the process by which we apply for and interview for our Some of my colleagues, particularly the Alliance jobs—the electoral system. So it is no surprise that we Member, the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi are all so concerned that we are willing to sit here for Long), spoke about the difficulties of joint campaigning interminable hours discussing the finer detail of the on the referendum. While MPs never usually take the funding of elections and of the broadcasting balance. fact that something has been said already as an excuse One would imagine, listening to the contributions not to repeat it, on this occasion she has said it perfectly from all parts of the Committee, from people of great adequately so I will refrain from doing so. But there will seniority as I have said, that the process by which people 235 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 236 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill determine their vote is that they empty their diaries, Scottish Parliament in as much contempt as I do all our clear their social lives and spend a full four weeks political elites, in that we do not necessarily reflect the reading every leaflet, considering every proposition, interests, concerns and priorities of the people whom listening to every programme, weighing up the arguments we represent when we discuss politics itself and how and being influenced by the precise balance on every elections are conducted. programme of the political views expressed. That is not the case. I am humble enough to know that 90% of the Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Is the hon. Gentleman’s people who voted for me last May do not have the first argument that politicians are not good at deferring to clue who I am and that 90% of them will not have the the people when they argue about politics? That is not first clue who I am when in five, 10 or 15 years’ time I exactly a case for saying that politicians should campaign leave this place. They will never have had the first clue in elections on the day when the electorate are choosing who I am or any interest in that subject, and all power the democratic process that gives them their power of to them. choice in the future.

8.15 pm Nick Boles: Absolutely not. That is actually the contrary The way in which people—normal people who are argument. The argument should be that if somebody not interested in the finer detail of political machinations— can present me with evidence that people other than make up their minds is by getting glancing reactions politicians, stakeholders, returning officers and anyone from the 10 o’clock news. They turn on their television involved in all the other bureaucratic paraphernalia of sets to watch “The X Factor”, but it is not quite time, so getting ourselves these jobs would prefer— they have to watch some boring programme in which someone is talking about something. In other cases, Naomi Long rose— they have read the sports pages, or their wait for a Nick Boles: Even in mid-sentence, I give way. meeting is dragging on and on, so they read a bit of political coverage. Then they make up their minds relatively Naomi Long: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving quickly. That is not to suggest, as some have suggested, way. The evidence that I presented during my contribution that people are unsophisticated; far from it. Unlike us, was that when more than one election is happening on who require five hours to churn endlessly through these the same day, people often turn up at polling stations issues before making up our minds and voting in the with the wrong identification because they are getting Lobbies, they make up their minds quickly. They make conflicting bits of information through the post and are judgments about our character, our motives and our often unable to cast their votes. That issue matters to arguments quickly.They do not need four weeks separately my constituents. This is not about electoral elites, but for all of us to go round and round the issues. They do about pensioners in my constituency who trek to the not need more than four minutes to make up their polling station and cannot actually vote. minds. Nick Boles: I have a lot of respect for the hon. Lady’s Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): Does my point. All I say to her is that it should be possible to iron hon. Friend agree that our constituents elect us to use out those issues. Why different forms of identification our considered judgments on the big issues of the day, are necessary for different elections is beyond me. I was and if we are to have a referendum, let us do it in a way in the Select Committee when we interviewed the head that ensures that we get it right? of the Electoral Commission, and she confirmed that Nick Boles: I always defer to my hon. Friend, and in while those are challenges, they are manageable challenges particular on the question whether we are right, here and that there is therefore no objection. and now, to deliberate the issues. I cannot say that it is my idea of fun, but it is what we are here to do, and it is Dr Julian Lewis: My hon. Friend is not only charming, right that we should do it. However, does that mean that but courteous in giving way so graciously. May I ask we should therefore expect the people to go through a him to address the specific objections put forward in the similar process in answering a simple question about a debate, not least one that is completely unaffected by voting system? I do not think that we should. his point about whether people make up their minds quickly or whether they need a long period of time to It is revealing when some Opposition Members talk decide on these issues? Will he address the matter of about the lack of consultation in the other nations of differential turnout caused by different types of elections the United Kingdom. They never refer to the opinions being held or not held on the same day? of their people. They talk about—I quote the hon. Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson)—there Even if I accepted his point that people will make up having been no consultation with the stakeholders and their minds in exactly the same way with a long period about political opinion. To me, that sounds as though of consultation or a short period of consultation, the we are talking about elites. fact is that what matters is whether they will go to the polls and cast their votes. By holding the referendum on Mr MacNeil: Will the hon. Gentleman concede that the day when there are important elections in some the Scottish Parliament is the most democratic forum parts of the country, less important elections in others that represents the opinions of the Scottish people? and no elections in still others, we will get differential, unfair and skewed results. Nick Boles: I am second to no one in this place, even to the hon. Gentleman, in my respect for the Scottish Nick Boles: I am surprised that my hon. Friend has Parliament. I am a Conservative who always believed made that argument, because he is a doughty defender that we should have had a Scottish Parliament, and I of freedom and democratic rights. Everybody in this am delighted that we have one. However, I hold the country—in all the countries that make up this country— 237 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 238 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Nick Boles] in support of the amendments that would move the date of the referendum from the date scheduled in the will have an identical democratic right to cast their vote legislation. in the referendum or not. We should not judge whether The hon. Gentleman talked eloquently about the they want to or whether the campaigns will motivate people, and politicians, talking to each other. I have no them to. We already have differential turnout across doubt that none of this debate this afternoon and general elections. So long as people have an identical evening will get any coverage at all anywhere in the right, it is all that matters. main news media. I doubt very much whether it will get I have detained hon. Members for far too long— any coverage in the press tomorrow. Frankly, people are Mr Jenkin: I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for not interested in the subject. That is the reality. If we making this speech, because it is illuminating. We have were really honest about it and were following a new the new politics, and I think that we are hearing the new agenda and new politics, we would be saying that what elitism: we do not mind how ill informed electors may we are discussing is not on people’s minds at all: they be or how difficult it is for ordinary electors to hear a are far more interested in the economy, jobs and the clear argument—it does not matter, because we know wars going on, with soldiers dying and all the rest of it. that they are not interested and that we will just do what They are not interested in our spending days upon days we want. Is my hon. Friend not describing that new debating this subject, which is of interest only to certain elitism? politicians in certain parties. Nick Boles: I defer to my hon. Friend on elitism, a Thomas Docherty: The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely subject on which he is a great expert. However, calling right that the issue of electoral reform does not excite people “ordinary”, and saying that if they do not have interest. However, I can certainly say that Scottish four weeks of a constant barrage of information on a newspapers have followed with interest—indeed, anger—the particular subject they will be ill informed sounds pretty fact that the Government will not listen to the devolved elitist to me. Administrations around the United Kingdom. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): It seems to me that Mr Dodds: I take the hon. Gentleman’s point. He the hon. Gentleman’s argument now boils down to his spoke at length about his own amendment. Of course belief that we should not be wasting three hours—he people in the devolved regions are concerned about the said four hours, but actually we have been going for impact, on their elections and their issues of concern, of only three, although it may feel like four—on all this, having this referendum question imposed on them without because we have not spoken to our electors and asked any consultation. The respect agenda has been mentioned them what they think. I am sure that most of my over and over again, and the fact that there was no electors in the Rhondda would say that they do not consultation with the devolved Administrations or the want any messing around with the constitution in this elected representatives of the people of Scotland, Wales particular way, so the hon. Gentleman’s argument is and Northern Ireland is an indictment of the Prime basically against the whole Bill. Minister’s and Deputy Prime Minister’s approach to Nick Boles: I hate to have words put in my mouth by the subject. anyone, let alone the hon. Gentleman. However, he is We are debating this matter today, and tomorrow we close to my conclusion, and I will now get to it. It is that will debate the increase in the EU’s budget. Many most people, if asked, would say, “Ask us once a year people outside will say, “What on earth is going on in what we want and what we think about how we want to Parliament?” Today we are debating a subject that is of be run, and then just get out of our lives and get on with no interest to people given the current challenges, whereas it.” That is why I welcome legislation that says that once tomorrow we will vote on giving the EU more money a year we will have a general election, national elections despite the 25% cuts in the budgets of mainstream or a referendum. Departments in the United Kingdom. People have a I take an even more radical position. I would have, as right to ask why there is a disconnect between the in America, a date that everybody knows. People there people’s priorities and the politicians’ priorities—or can say what the dates of the presidential, congressional, perhaps I should say the Government’s priorities. So mayoral or gubernatorial elections will be in 40 years’ far, since they came to power, the main focus of the time. Everybody knows when elections are, which is Government’s legislative programme has been to rush when they start to look at the questions. ahead with fundamental constitutional changes and major changes to our political process and our democratic Chris Bryant: It is every four years. way of working in Parliament and in this country, Nick Boles: It is every two years, actually, because without any of the normal conventions having been there are mid-terms. followed. There has been no pre-legislative scrutiny of That is the time when all this should be done. It is the major legislation, which is deeply disquieting when we right way to conduct elections and to handle these consider the future of this place. matters, because it responds to how people think about the issues, rather than politicians. 8.30 pm Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): I am grateful I shall not repeat what other Members, such as the to you, Mr Hoyle, for the opportunity to speak in this hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long), have said debate. I say “debate”, but until the hon. Member for about the impact of the referendum being held on the Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles) spoke, it was not same day as the elections in Northern Ireland. We have much of a debate, but more of a monologue: every heard from various Members that the same points speaker, apart from the Minister, had the same opinion apply in Wales and Scotland. It is a major concern that 239 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 240 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill there will potentially be three elections on the same day Given that there has been no pre-legislative scrutiny in Northern Ireland—council elections, Assembly elections and that the measure is being rushed through—that and the referendum. flies in the face of normal constitutional conventions The problem is not that people in Northern Ireland about seeking cross-party consensus—and given that are not adept at voting in different elections with different legislation will also be introduced on, for example, voting systems, or used to doing so. They are more than House of Lords reform, it is vital to take the opportunity capable of getting their heads round that. The problem tonight to vote down the proposal to hold the referendum is that the national media will concentrate on the AV on the same date as the Scottish, Welsh and Northern referendum, which will be confusing for people. There Ireland elections. are also practical and logistical problems for the political Mr Mark Williams: I am delighted to be called at process, such as the different electoral registers and such an opportune moment. The hon. Member for electorates that exist for the council and Assembly Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles) spoke of the elections and the referendum. There will be council purgatory that he has endured in the past few hours. As elections and Assembly elections based on the single a Liberal, sitting here has not been the most pleasurable transferrable vote, and a referendum by simple majority experience for me, either. on whether we should have AVfor Westminster elections, Let me start by dispelling the myth that I am either so one can imagine the potential for confusion. distinguished—the accolade that the hon. Member for Jim Shannon: My right hon. Friend will be aware that New Forest East (Dr Lewis) bestowed on me; I was this week, the question to be asked in the AVreferendum sitting next to my right hon. Friend the Member for was changed because of a belief that the general public Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), so it was a case did not have the capacity to understand it: it was of mistaken identity—or an anorak, which the hon. thought important to get the question right so that Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) accused me of people would get the answer correct. A Cabinet Office being. Indeed, I am also not an agent of the forces of spokesman said that it was important that darkness, as suggested by the hon. Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson). “the referendum question is clear and simple to understand.” I did not intend to speak, but, like other hon. Members, Does my right hon. Friend agree that the same logic my conscience has been pricked by some contributions. should be used when it comes to the Assembly and I say, first as a Welsh Member of Parliament and council elections? They should be kept separate from secondly as a Liberal Democrat, that the debate has the referendum to make them clear and simple to been powerful—a little one-sided, but none the less understand. powerful—and it has touched on the legitimacy of the Mr Dodds: I agree with my hon. Friend, and the devolved institutions. referendum question will, I hope, be the subject of I remain enthusiastic about the referendum. The another debate later this evening. alternative vote system is not ideal—it is not the system for which my party has spent many years campaigning; If there is to be a change of date, it has to be to the that is STV—the single transferable vote. However, it is date of the referendum. There can be absolutely no what is on offer. I do not believe that there were great question of the elections in Scotland, Wales or Northern conspiratorial discussions in the Cabinet Office or anywhere Ireland being moved. As all parties in the Northern else when the coalition document was drawn up. Indeed, Ireland Assembly have said—I cannot speak for other I know that there were not. devolved legislatures—our council and Assembly elections should proceed on the designated date in May, and the As a Liberal, I believe in government partly by referendum vote should be held at a different time. I referendum. We should not lose sight of that: whatever hope that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland our view of AV, we are putting the matter to the British will take that on board, because the situation is unlike people. I do not accept that there has been a conspiracy. the one in Scotland. A Conservative Member mentioned We have heard different evidence from different people the Scottish Parliament’s ability to move the date of the about the effect of differential turnout and the alleged Scottish Parliament elections, but in Northern Ireland implications of the date. the Assembly cannot vote to move the date of Assembly I want to focus on three issues. The first is cost. The elections. It can vote by a two-thirds majority to dissolve right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) said that itself, but only the Secretary of State can move the date cost was a significant factor. Others dismissed that, but of the Assembly elections. That is a real problem. I would like to hear from the Minister about cost. I came here believing that it was a factor, but others have Dr McCrea: Does my right hon. Friend agree that it said that it is not, so I want to hear more. is strange that not one Member has spoken up for the Secondly, I want to acknowledge the comments of Bill from the party that says that the matter is of the hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford. I know paramount importance to the UK and must be pushed what my voters in Ceredigion and Aberystwyth will say through before other legislation? In fact, the one Member when faced with the prospect of three elections in a who spoke to support the Bill, the hon. Member for year. They said it when we held the first elections for the Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles), said that 90% of National Assembly in the same year as the community his constituents did not even know who he was. council and county council elections. “Not more elections!” they said. I want to deal with that specifically when we Mr Dodds: I am sure that the same could not be said consider turnout, because it is a concern. of my hon. Friend. Doubtless at least one Liberal Democrat Member will seek to catch your eye, Mr Hoyle, Thomas Docherty: On the rare occasions when the at some point in the debate, and we all look forward to Deputy Prime Minister has taken part in any sort of that contribution immensely. debate on the issue, he claims that this is the greatest 241 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 242 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Thomas Docherty] and could say, “Look what we’re getting already! Look what we’re putting through!” reform since the Reform Act 1832, yet the hon. Gentleman I understand those political needs—the Liberal suggests that it cannot excite the good burghers of his Democrats needed to assure themselves and their activists constituency. Which is it? that the Bill was real—but amendment 1, which was tabled by the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Mr Williams: The hon. Gentleman is being selective. Fife (Thomas Docherty) and to which I have put my The Bill is one part of a big package. We have not even name, addresses and accommodates such imperatives. started work on reform of the second Chamber. The It would guarantee a date before the Liberal Democrat Government will tackle a whole range of issues over a conference, but it would also ensure that the date was longer period. Have I, like the hon. Gentleman, had the not in conflict with other important elections, such as biggest postbag on AV? No, I have not. It is important the long-delayed and overdue local authority elections to galvanise opinion in this country by putting the in Northern Ireland and the Assembly elections, which question to the people in a referendum. other right hon. and hon. Members mentioned. We have also heard that argument from Welsh and Scottish Thomas Docherty: On further reforms, would it have Members in respect of elections in their countries. made more sense to have a proper constitutional debate, Amendment 1 offers Liberal Democrats the certainty perhaps through a constitutional convention, and to of a date without the complications and conflicts that put all aspects of the reform agenda into a single Bill, attach to 5 May. The proposal would also ensure, as rather than rushing this Bill through, as the Government others have said, that parties could duly observe the are trying to do? proper six-month referendum period, and that the Electoral Mr Williams: I have been in the House for the last five Commission could properly monitor it, as per its years and the hon. Gentleman has been here only five responsibilities. Members should reflect on the fact that months, but he is answerable for the inactivity of the this will be the first test of the Electoral Commission’s Labour party on those issues. The Liberal Democrats handling of a full-blown, cross-UK referendum. It will and our Government have taken the right stance. We be the first test of how it discharges its responsibility for need to judge the package over a longer period. overseeing the proprieties imposed on it by the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000. To ask As for simplicity, it resonates strongly with people the commission to discharge that role in the context of that they will be able to go out and get it all done in one so many other campaign atmospherics, with various go when they vote on that polling day. That is the most leaflets and materials being sent out in at least three important point. However, on consultation with areas of the UK, is too much. stakeholders, which the hon. Member for Glasgow South West talked about—my friends in the nationalist parties will agree with me on this—I deeply regret the extent to 8.45 pm which my Government have not always been thorough Politicians will end up crossing the line and answering in their dialogue with the National Assembly for Wales referendum-related questions in a context that is meant and the other devolved Governments of this country. They to be election-related. National networks will find it need to acknowledge that. I will be interested in what difficult to deal only with the AV referendum and not the Minister says about that in the context of the with the elections in Scotland, Wales and Northern extent of consultation to date. The Government need to Ireland, and the regional networks will be in serious improve on that if they are to take the National Assembly trouble in covering the campaigns properly. For instance, for Wales and the people of Wales with them. how will they cover the election campaign in Northern Ireland? Will they have to tell people that they are not Mark Durkan: All hon. Members appreciate the remarks allowed to ask a panel of candidates about the referendum? of the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams). We If candidates in the election talk about the referendum, take both the sincerity of his criticism of his Government they might influence matters. Regional networks will and his defence of the proposals, but we have not have to try to run separate coverage, so that those of us heard any supporter of the Bill answer this question: who wish to campaign in both the election and the what is the imperative of 5 May 2011? Why the absolute referendum can do so separately and can show that we insistence on that date? I think the Deputy Prime Minister did one thing in relation to one campaign and another will come to regret that as a serious episode of premature in relation to the other campaign. That will create an calculation. He somehow decided that it suited him for impossible position, and the difficulties will include internal party reasons, and perhaps for the prospects for trying to rein in the excesses of the big networks and success in the referendum, to go for that date. dealing with the dilemmas for regional broadcasters in I fully recognise that Liberal Democrats did not want covering the parliamentary and Assembly elections. a Bill that did not contain a guaranteed date, which is Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): I am trying to follow the why they will be suspicious of some amendments in the hon. Gentleman’s argument and wondering how his group. They will say no to some proposals because they constituents might feel about different types of election would allow too much elasticity and too many other being held at the same time. I do not understand why he conditions to get in the way. There was therefore an thinks that they are not capable of understanding that. imperative to include a date. Can he not give them the credit for being able to It was probably also imperative for Liberal Democrats comprehend the difference? to have a date in 2011, and probably one before next year’s Liberal Democrats annual conference, just as Mark Durkan: I fully recognise that the electorate in Second Reading of the Bill was scheduled conveniently my constituency and elsewhere in Northern Ireland can before this year’s conference, so that they had a trophy cope with having different elections on the same day. 243 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 244 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Irish people can cope with elections and referendums either for the nationalist likely to beat the Unionist or on the same day, as we have seen in the south of Ireland. the Unionist likely to beat the nationalist. People who However, the electoral body in the south learned the want to vote for other reasons and express more lessons from that and pointed out the serious issues that sophisticated political preferences and endorsements arose, including in relation to programmes that were find themselves trapped in that sort of sectarian head meant to be about the referendum campaign, with a count by first past the post. If people do not want to be representative from the yes side and one from the no freed from the sectarian headcount, they can make that side. But some parties involved in the election on the choice, but at least let us have that honest and open same day were not included in the broadcasts, and that debate on a cross-party basis. We will not be able to caused serious controversy about the balance of the have that debate if this referendum takes place on coverage. The legislation that this House has previously 5 May 2011. If that is what the Liberal Democrats want passed about the obligations in referendums and election to condemn Northern Ireland to, so be it, but the rest of campaigns is already difficult to observe, but it will be us want better—not just for next year, but for the future. even more difficult to observe it when both are held at Some Members have raised issues about differential the same time. turnouts. I am less concerned about that. If I am concerned about anything, it is that some Conservative Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): If the argument Members who do not have to contend with elections of is that the elections and the referendum should be held party colleagues in their constituencies will turn up and on the same day, surely we should also have the vote on have time to spare campaigning on the referendum in extra powers for the Welsh Assembly on the same day. Northern Ireland. They could be prolific and very active However, the Liberal Democrats in the Assembly are in the referendum campaign, while the rest of us would not arguing for that. They want it one way for the be preoccupied with election campaigns. The issue of referendum and another for that vote. differential attendances can work more than one way, which is why hon. Members, including the hon. Member Mark Durkan: My hon. Friend has punctured the for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh), are right to say that we argument and identified the inconsistency of the Liberal should suspend our calculations of how one day might Democrats, and I shall not add anything further on favour the vote on one side or another. Let us just say that. that we want to ensure as little confusion and controversy as possible. If we go for the day proposed, there will be As legislators, we will have to think about these confusion, controversy and allegations of undue conduct difficulties. We must look at previous legislation and at and improper spending, which will only bring us back the situations that might be generated by what we do all over again to the expenses scandal and the contamination tonight. It is not about saying that the public cannot of politics by money. cope with different choices, but about the media and political systems and the Electoral Commission itself. Many of us have asked questions in the past about how Hywel Williams: We have had a very good debate, well the commission does its job of monitoring elections and I will not detain the Committee with repetition. and election expenditure, and the bye balls it appears to However, I would like to thank the hon. Member for give to some people who cannot complete returns or Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles), who defended who put in returns of very little expenditure that completely the Government’s position. contradict their evident and expensive publicity material. So it is about ensuring that the elections are fought free Mr MacNeil: Promotion, promotion! from controversy and confusion about referendum campaign spending, and about ensuring that the campaign Hywel Williams: Promotion, indeed. The hon. Gentleman takes place in conditions that are most conducive to full was heroically, magnificently incoherent—so he should and proper debate. go far on the Government Benches. The hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) The hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) made an important point about cross-party campaigning. distanced himself—and, to some extent, his party—from One of the benefits of a referendum campaign that this shambles. That has a significance in Wales that perhaps enables people from different parties to unite some hon. Members perhaps do not quite realise. and join forces to commend or resist a reform is that it As far as I can see, there are many, many reasons not offers an almost unique opportunity in Northern Ireland to hold the referendum on the same date as the elections for cross-party campaigning and a public debate. That in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, but so far no will be completely eclipsed if the referendum takes compelling reasons have been offered for why we must place against a backdrop of Assembly and local government have the referendum on 5 May next year, apart from the elections. The imperatives of party politics and the reasons alluded to earlier: that this is part of the deal party vote will always outweigh the democratic debate between the two parties that make up the coalition. As about which is the better voting system. far as I can see, that is the only reason offered. I believe that in Northern Ireland we can have a My major concern is that the referendum is to be held debate about the merits of the alternative vote, and if on the same day as the Assembly elections in Wales. In later amendments succeed and we have a bigger choice that respect, the arguments that we have heard about in the referendum, so much the better. However, we political interference from one campaign to the other could at least have a debate in Northern Ireland about are pertinent. It is difficult for us to hold the Assembly the alternative vote, which would be one way of freeing elections and the referendum on the same day, not least us from the tragedy of the first-past-the-post system. because of the points that have already been made The latter condemns us to sectarian head counts at about the media. In Wales, English newspapers have a Westminster elections, because people have to vote tactically huge penetration. Very few people read newspapers 245 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 246 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Hywel Williams] ensuring the correct polling cards are sent out? Who will take responsibility for ensuring that the ballot originating in Wales. The debate is therefore dominated boxes are returned to the correct authority, so as to by UK issues, or perhaps even by English issues. That ensure that counting takes place? And, as the hon. will have a significant effect on the democratic debate Gentleman has said, will the UK referendum be counted leading up to our Assembly elections. first, and is that not an insult to democracy in Wales, The argument has been made that there is a cost Scotland and Northern Ireland? element involved, but, as I said in an earlier intervention, I draw the House’s attention to the election in the we will now have another referendum in Wales, on Vale of Glamorgan in 2007. Counting went on throughout 3 March—we will have one on 3 March, one on 5 May the night, finishing at 10.30 am after five counts. Fortunately, and the Assembly elections on 5 May. That blows out of there was no need for recounts on the regional list the water some of the arguments about cost. papers; otherwise, it would have taken even longer. We might, of course, have that sort of recount in May. Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman said that there There are also questions about the feasibility of holding would be a referendum on 3 March. My understanding the three votes at the same time. is that the Assembly has asked for that referendum to be held on 3 March, but we have not yet heard from the 9pm Secretary of State for Wales whether there will be a Due to the nature of the elections, the electorate in referendum on that date or not. Wales will face three ballot papers at the same time: a yes/no, a d’Hondt and a first past the post. There will be Hywel Williams: I take the hon. Gentleman’s point two for the election for the Assembly, including one for entirely. One of the reasons put forward for holding the constituency. That could lead to the same congestion that referendum on 3 March is that there might be at the ballot boxes as people experienced in May this contamination between the referendum on further powers, year. If many electors needed to have the ballots explained the referendum on AV and the Assembly elections. That to them because they had not fully understood the argument has been made by those in all parties in significance of all three papers, that would eat further Wales, and it is the same argument that we are making into the time available for voting. There are very persuasive this evening. arguments in favour of not having the election and the If we are not to have three elections on the same day referendum on the same day, and I urge the Committee in Wales, as the cost argument proposes, then why are to support amendment 155. we having two? Surely the argument against having three works against having two as well. There are a Graham Stringer: This has been a long debate on number of reasons for not holding those elections on clause 1 and one thing that I have learned, and which the same day, including the difficulties of having a full could apply also to other parties in the Chamber, is that and clear debate. Some hon. Members will remember we should all go to Grantham and Stamford and introduce the referendum that we had in 1979, when the unpopularity 90% of the electorate to the hon. Member who represents of the Government intruded strongly into the debate on them at the moment. If they knew the hon. Member for whether devolution should have been introduced at that Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles), there would point. Unfortunately, the devolution question was not perhaps be a different result in that constituency. He did, uppermost in many people’s minds in 1979. however, point out that some of the debate that goes on here does not have a resonance outside; people are not There are administrative difficulties for the electoral talking about d’Hondt, the alternative vote or PR. services departments in councils. The number of ballot papers and the confusion among the general public has My position is that there should not be a referendum. already been referred to, as has the ability to process On 9 February, when there was a vote in the House on electors at busy polling stations. All those reasons, the issue, I was not persuaded when the Whip said, which have been mentioned by other Members, are “Vote for a referendum on AV because the Lords will persuasive. There is also the issue of administration. overturn it.”That struck me as an inadequate justification Referendums have been organised in Wales on a number for a major constitutional change, and I have not altered of previous occasions—we have even had one on Sunday my position. I have listened to all the contributions opening. We are used to referendums in Wales, but they today, and I watched with exquisite pleasure the misery are normally organised on the basis of local government on the faces of his right hon. and hon. Friends on the units, of which we have 22. However, on the same day as Front Bench as the hon. Member for Harwich and the referendum, we will be having Assembly elections North Essex (Mr Jenkin) destroyed the case for a organised by constituencies, 40 of which will be decided referendum on 5 May—the same day as different elections on first past the post, with a further 20 being decided on in different parts of the United Kingdom. I think that the d’Hondt 2 system. That is a recipe for potential that argument was won fully. I also accept what my hon. confusion to say the least. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) said that one reason why we are discussing the matter Thomas Docherty: The hon. Gentleman mentions when people outside do not want to do so is quite previous referendums, but when it comes to counting simply that a deal was done between the Lib Dems and the ballot papers, is it normal practice for the ballot the Conservatives. The Conservatives do not like it but papers in referendums to take priority over the sovereign it will keep them in power, and it will give a political elections to the Welsh Assembly or local authorities? advantage to the Lib Dems, who will therefore vote for cuts. Hywel Williams: I will refer to that point in a moment, The situation is slightly worse than that, though. but it is a significant one. The questions that immediately There is a double gerrymander in the Bill. The changes come to mind are: who will have responsibility for in boundaries—perpetual changes without any right to 247 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 248 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill challenge them—deal only with a tiny part of the produce—experience of this coalition before the next problem of more votes being needed to elect a Member general election will provide a very good argument from one party than from another. The Bill also cuts against it—are more coalitions. For those reasons, I will 11%—a Rawlings and Thrasher estimate—of the seats support amendments that move the referendum away that the Labour party has, 11% of those that the Lib from 5 May, because that is the worst of the proposals Dems have, and 4% of those of the Conservatives. In an before us. My preference, however, is for having a alliance, there has to be a quid pro quo, so what is it? It referendum that will affect not the next general election, is believed, with rather less statistical analysis than in but the one after that. the boundary review, that AV will benefit the Lib Dems. It may well do so; I suspect that there is some common The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark sense to that. Harper): My hon. Friend the Member for Grantham The justification for the referendum on AV, then, has and Stamford (Nick Boles), who does not appear to be nothing to do with what the Deputy Prime Minister present at the moment, said that he might be the only tells us—that it is about putting trust back into politics speaker for the Government. Fortunately my hon. Friend after last year’s horrific expenses scandal. I have yet to the Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) chipped in hear any explanation as to how AV as opposed to with some additional support. I can reassure him and, first-past-the-post will make people feel better about indeed, the Chief Whip that I too intend to speak on somebody who wants to buy a Stockholm duck house behalf of the Government. at the public expense. There is no relationship whatever All the amendments seek to delay the date on which between the two issues. the referendum takes place, either proposing a specific I have come to a slightly different conclusion from alternative or suggesting a mechanism enabling the date that of Conservative Members to whose speeches I to be determined later. Some, including amendments 4 enjoyed listening. Fundamental constitutional change and 126, are intended to prevent the combination of the is proposed which will give advantage to the two political referendum with other polls. parties in a coalition Government. It is more common I am aware of the concerns that have been expressed to change the rules in between elections for the party about the combination of the polls next May, but they political advantage of those parties in government. This ignore the fact that it is not unusual to combine elections. proposal has been a trait more of nearly democratic Many of us, either this year or in 2005, were elected at a countries in eastern Europe in the past, and now more general election, determining who would govern the commonly occurs in Africa. If Parliament is to go country, on a day on which people were voting in other through with what I consider to be an unnecessary elections. I therefore do not think it reasonable to referendum, it should be with an eye not to the next suggest that people are not capable of making decisions general election, where clear vested interests are at about various levels of government and voting on stake, but to the one after that. That is why I tabled referendums on the same day. amendment 225. Some good general points against having referendums Mr Jenkin: I am reluctant to intervene so early in my on the same day as other elections have been made, but hon. Friend’s speech. However, I think that there can be the focus of a UK-wide election and a decision to a justification for combining different elections on the change the voting system for the future takes out the same day, simply because the political parties are likely rather cynical self-interest of the two parties in government. to be fighting analogous campaigns in those elections. When not just 85% but 100% of the electorate are The difference between that and combining a referendum involved, such a thing is worth doing. There is thus a with an election is that the referendum issue is, or sound argument for proceeding on that basis, although should be—as the Electoral Commission suggested in there is not much of a sound argument for having the 2002—elevated above party politics. It is rather more referendum itself. difficult to elevate the debate about the referendum Let me provide the three reasons why I believe it issue above party politics if those taking part in referendum would be worth proceeding on such a basis. First, there campaigns are taking part in party political election would be a higher turnout—coherently and consistently campaigns at the same time. The hon. Member for across the whole country. Secondly, there would be no Foyle (Mark Durkan) made that point extremely well. self-interest, so we would avoid the cynicism of the two parties in coalition changing the rules in between elections Mr Harper: I am not sure that I agree with my hon. to their own advantage. Thirdly, although the hon. Friend that parties campaign on the same issues. In Member for Grantham and Stamford thinks that everyone 2005, when elections to Gloucestershire county council can understand things instantly, I do not. This is a were taking place and I was also fighting a general complicated issue and most of the electorate take these election, we were campaigning on very different issues. things seriously. Much of the current propaganda says We were campaigning on national issues for the purposes things that might be true but are not true. People say, of the general election, but on specific local issues for “If you have AV, you get the support of 50% of the the purposes of the Gloucestershire election. electorate.” Well, in some cases that is so; in others it Our programme for government made a commitment is not. It is still possible to get elected on AV on less to the public to hold the referendum. We feel that the than 50%. public have a right to expect that commitment to be Some people believe that AV is more proportional. In delivered promptly, and we believe that holding the some cases, such as the general elections of 1983 and referendum on 5 May next year will deliver it. 1997, AV would have produced a less proportional I do not follow the argument about differential turnouts. result, with more extreme victories for the Conservatives Most of the country will vote next year, 84% of the and Labour respectively. What AV probably does electorate in the United Kingdom and 81% of the 249 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 250 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Mr Harper] Welsh and Northern Ireland Assemblies—and of making a judgment about what the voting system should be for electorate in England. It is not true that everyone in this Parliament. I think they are perfectly capable of England will be faced with other elections, but the vast making that judgment, and I am surprised that the hon. majority will. A significant amount of money—about Gentleman does not agree. £30 million—can be saved for the taxpayer. Although that is not a reason for combining elections, it seems to Mr MacNeil: I was not in any way casting aspersions me that if there is to be a referendum and if there is no on the electorate. I was casting aspersions on the capabilities other obvious reason why a combination does not make of the media to deal with more than one issue. They are sense, going out of our way to spend an extra £30 million, obsessed with programmes such as “X Factor” and they particularly at a time when money is tight, would be struggle with complexity—as, I am a little surprised to perverse. discover, the Minister is too at the moment.

Thomas Docherty: There is a question that I hoped to Mr Harper: I was referring to the debate we had on ask the Deputy Prime Minister, but I am afraid that the Second Reading. I shall come on to the hon. Gentleman’s Minister will have to answer it. Have he and the Deputy contributions of today shortly. Prime Minister actually read the Gould report, and if so, when? Several hon. Members rose— Mr Harper: I shall give way now to the Chairman of Mr Harper: We have indeed. I was coming to that. the Scottish Affairs Committee. Let me try to find the relevant page about Mr Gould so that I can whip it out. Mr Davidson: The comments of Ron Gould to which I can tell Members on both sides of the Committee the Minister has referred deal, I think, with the previous who were keen on overnight counting in the general Scottish and local government elections. Is the Minister election—I seem to remember that it was proposed by aware that on 21 September Ron Gould said in a note to my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing), the Committee: and that her proposal received tremendous cross-party “My basic view is that it would be preferable to separate these support—that those who say that Ron Gould is the two voting activities in order to give the voters the opportunity to fount of all knowledge, and that his views on elections focus specifically on each of them”? should be listened to unquestioningly, ought to know To be fair, he also said that the same complexities are that he does not believe in overnight counts of ballot not present in both sorts of election. However, he went papers. Those who cite him as the fount of all wisdom on to say that the evidence suggests that should be a little cautious. “in this event a number of pilot projects and focus groups be To be fair, Ron Gould says that he would prefer the carried out to identify any unforeseen problems which might two polls to be held on separate dates. However, he also arise.” says that he does not think that holding them on the Does the Minister intend to undertake such studies same day would cause the problems that were experienced before a joint AVreferendum and election are proceeded in 2007, because voting systems are less complex now. with? He points out that there will be elections based on existing systems that will not be changed, along with a Mr Harper: I do not think the hon. Gentleman was simple, straightforward question. He does not foresee listening carefully enough to what I said. I clearly stated the problems that the hon. Gentleman seems to anticipate. that Ron Gould said in the evidence he submitted to the hon. Gentleman’s Committee that his first choice would Thomas Docherty: When did the Minister and the be to hold the polls on separate dates but that he did not Deputy Prime Minister first read the Gould report? think that the same complexities as arose in the 2007 Was that before or after they announced the referendum votes would arise in this instance. My officials have date? been working closely with electoral administrators across the UK, and with the Electoral Commission, to do 9.15 pm exactly what Ron Gould suggests, which is to make sure that any combined polls are run smoothly and well and Mr Harper: The Deputy Prime Minister and I have go ahead without problems. That has been taking place looked very carefully at the submissions Mr Gould during the summer. made to the Scottish Affairs Committee, and also at the The rigorous testing carried out by the Electoral other submissions. We have also looked at the relevant Commission should also reassure those worried about sections of the Gould report, and the analysis is not the voter confusion—a point made from the Opposition same. We are not talking about multiple voting systems. Benches. The new draft of the question, which we will We are talking about a straightforward question with a be debating shortly, enables the electorate to understand yes or no answer. I simply fail to see why that would clearly the choice they are being asked to make and to cause an incredible amount of problems. express their views. I think voters are perfectly able to distinguish between the polls. On Second Reading, I said to the hon. Member Thomas Docherty rose— for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) that he was understating the qualities of his own constituents and Mr Harper: Let me just make some progress so that I the Scottish people in general. I think they are perfectly can deal with the points made in the debate. capable of making judgments about who they want to I also do not accept the proposal in amendment 155 represent them in the Scottish Parliament—as, indeed, that the referendum date should be agreed by the Scottish are Welsh and Northern Irish voters in respect of the Parliament and Northern Irish and Welsh Assemblies— 251 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 252 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill despite the respect that, of course, I have for them. The not get a proper hearing. She correctly spotted that, and dates of elections are not agreed in conjunction with I do not think that the point was adequately answered. I them. There is no precedent for suggesting that elections am happy to give way to the hon. Member for South or referendums can be held only with the consent of Antrim (Dr McCrea) if he still wishes to intervene. those involved in other polls. I do not think it is appropriate for devolved Administrations, effectively, to be able to Dr McCrea: If the counting for the Assembly elections veto policies of the UK Government. Although they is resolved, we still have to address the counting of the might welcome that, neither I nor the Government council elections. Is that to wait until after the counting think it is appropriate. of the referendum? Where do we come in, because we already have two elections set for the same day? Several hon. Members rose— Mr Harper: The Government’s position is very clear: Mr Harper: I am going to make some more progress, there is an imperative to get the results of the elections or else I will be in danger of not answering the significant to Parliament, the Assemblies and local councils decided number of points made in this debate. first, because it is important who runs those organisations. I am conscious of having given the Committee, through The result of the referendum is important, but given today’s programme motion, an extra hour of time, and that any change will not come in until the next election, I want to make sure that we reach our debate on the the counting of the referendum will take place after the question that we will put to people in the referendum. other counts. The Government have made that position clear and it is shared by the Electoral Commission. This Amendments 6 and 126 suggest that the Electoral might be a little frustrating for those who want the Commission should have a role in assessing the suitability referendum result to be given as early as possible, but it of the poll date. Amendment 6 goes further, suggesting is important that elections are counted first. That was that the Electoral Commission should recommend the the very clear sense that emerged from the previous date and the length of the referendum period. I do not Parliament when we debated when the general election think it is right in principle that the Electoral Commission count should take place. Results of elections need to be should have any of those roles. It is surely right that if heard first. the Government intend a referendum to be held, they should propose the date, which should then be discussed My hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North and agreed by Parliament. Proposing that the Electoral Essex (Mr Jenkin), who is in his place, referred to the Commission should assume responsibility drags the Government’s view of the referendum outcome and Electoral Commission, which should be neutral, into gave all sorts of thoughts as to how we had arrived at the heart of that political debate, and that is not appropriate. the date. Of course the Government are neutral about That is why the Government are not able to accept the outcome of the referendum. The two coalition those amendments. parties are not, but the Government do not have a view. When the Deputy Prime Minister and I were considering Amendment 225, which was tabled by the hon. Member the Bill and its details that was the view that we jointly for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer), who took. spoke last, proposed to change the referendum date to that of the next general election. Clearly, that was I also do not take my hon. Friend’s view, which we designed to undermine the commitment to move quickly debated a little following his intervention, about treating on our reform process. Delaying the referendum to votes differently. I do not buy the argument that, because 7 May 2015, which is the date of the next scheduled some parts of the United Kingdom are voting and some general election under our Fixed-term Parliaments Bill, are not, that in some sense treats voters differently. Even does not make any sense. Having a referendum on the voters in the parts of England that do not have other voting system for the general election on the same day elections next year are perfectly capable of listening to that the general election is to be held does not make the arguments. They have the same ability to go out to sense. vote as anybody else, and I do not understand this argument about differential turnout that he and other I shall now deal with some issues raised during the hon. Friends raised. debate. The hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar—I hope he will forgive me if I do not pronounce that quite Mr Jenkin: The Minister is dealing with the House right, because I do try—opened the debate, making with his customary courtesy. I quoted a leading academic clear his view that the respect agenda was not intact and on the subject of referendums, and he could not think referring to the counting of the results. The Government of any previous referendum in any other democratic have made it clear—I know that the Electoral Commission country that was held concurrently with other polls in shares this view—that counting the election results first some parts of the country, while in other parts of the is important, because it does matter who governs Scotland, country there were no other elections. Which example Wales and Northern Ireland. That is the plan; the are we following? Which example is the Electoral referendum result will be counted when those elections Commission drawing on in support of the idea of are out of the way. So I think that the respect agenda is concurrent elections? Can he give a single example from intact. anywhere in the world where a referendum has been My hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Ms Bagshawe) held at a time when there are elections in some parts of picked up well on the contradictory nature of the the country but not in others? debate coming from those on the Benches opposite; an argument was being put that the AV referendum would Mr Harper: Off the top of my head, no, I cannot, but drown out the debate on national issues, yet simultaneously I do not see that that point is at all valid. I do not see another argument was being made that the national that there is any problem with voters being able to make issues would mean that the referendum debate would the decisions sensibly. My hon. Friend underrates those 253 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 254 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Mr Harper] Mr Harper: I am just about to deal with the hon. Gentleman’s second point, which was about the cost of whom we ask to vote for us. His point is partly answered the count. It is perfectly clear—we acknowledge it—that if we consider this year’s general election. There was a some aspects of combination will require more resources combination of a general election and local elections in than a stand-alone poll would, but that will be very some parts of the United Kingdom, but not everywhere. much outweighed by the significant savings made by Some voters voted in more than one election, and some hiring polling stations and staff for one day rather than did not. I do not think that that had an impact on the two. He is perfectly right that there are some increases results of either the local elections or the general election. in cost as a result of combining, but the overall saving is If Members think that the situation meant that the quite significant. It is about £30 million, which will be results were illegitimate, that rather impacts on the shared between the UK budget and the budgets of the results of those of us who are Members of this House. devolved Administrations. Thomas Docherty: In July, my right hon. Friend the Dr Julian Lewis: Is my hon. Friend seriously suggesting Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) and I tabled questions to the House that there will be no difference in turnout about what estimate the Government had or had not in different parts of the country, when there are Scottish made of the costs to local authorities, and the Scottish, Parliament, Welsh Assembly and other comparable elections Welsh and Northern Irish Governments. The answers going on in some parts, local elections of some form that we got back eventually were that the Government going on in others, and no elections going on at all in had made no estimate at all. Is the Minister now telling others? The fact is that some people will vote in the us that he has made estimates of the additional costs, referendum if they are at the poll, but might not have and if so, what are they? gone to the poll if it were not for those other elections. We need a level playing field to get a representative Mr Harper: The overall cost saving from combining result. the polls is £30 million. That is our best estimate looking at the details of running those elections across the Mr Harper: I simply do not accept my hon. Friend’s country. It is a pretty good estimate and the one that we argument. If we look at the general election this year stick by, and the saving is significant. It is not the reason and turnouts across the country, we see that there were for combining the elections, but there is a significant some constituencies where the turnout percentage was benefit in doing so. in the 70s or perhaps even in the 80s, and constituencies 9.30 pm where it was in the 50s. Every voter had the same I welcome the shadow Justice Secretary to his position opportunity to vote, but turnout across the country and look forward to working with him, perhaps not on varied. That will inevitably be the case in the referendum, this issue, but on our programme of political reform. and I do not think that there is anything sinister in that He drew attention to the fact that my right hon. Friend at all. the Deputy Prime Minister was not here, although he One of the issues raised by the hon. Member for acknowledged that my right hon. Friend had many Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty), which other things to work on. All that I would say is that, as I am glad to be able to address—that is why I did not well as being responsible for political and constitutional want to keep taking interventions from him—was about reform, my right hon. Friend is working in the national the mechanics of how the elections were to be run. In interest with my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister evidence to the Scottish Affairs Committee, Tom Aitchison, and shares responsibility across the whole of government. the convener of the Interim Electoral Management One of the important things that he has been working Board for Scotland—one of the people who runs the on in the past few months, and I am sure has been elections—made it clear that the electoral professionals working on for some part of today, is the appalling represented by his board would work to ensure that the financial legacy left by the right hon. Gentleman and poll was conducted in accordance with whatever the his Government—the right hon. Gentleman shares some House decides. He asked that the referendum in Scotland of the blame, having been a member of the previous “be conducted on Scottish Parliamentary Boundaries” Government. We have still heard no apology for that to make sure that there was legacy. So that is where my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister has been. We work as a team, and are “an efficient, clear and cost effective process”, perfectly capable of doing so. and said that The shadow Justice Secretary said that we were rushing “the relevant Order should be amended to allow the Scottish the legislation. The Constitutional Reform and Governance Parliamentary elections to be formally combined with the referendum.” Act 2010, which he supported, had only one day of He added: debate on the clauses relating to the alternative vote. The Constitutional Reform Act 2005–a larger Bill than “It is our current understanding that both of these proposals have been adopted”. this one—had only three days for Committee, Report and Third Reading. So in providing five days in Committee He is quite right, and we have listened. On 25 October, and two days on Report, we have provided a significant when we debate how the elections will be combined, it amount of time. will be clear that we have looked at the administrative The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) said challenges and sought to make sure that the combined in one of his interventions that his constituents did not elections on 5 May can be conducted in the most want any fiddling about with the constitution. He had sensible way possible. clearly forgotten that the proposal for an AVreferendum was in his own party’s manifesto and that he supported Thomas Docherty rose— it in the previous legislation before the election. 255 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 256 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill I shall deal with one or two points that we have not of some of the provisions. I hope that that is helpful— covered, conscious that the Committee probably does indeed, it was intended to be so. In conclusion, I urge not want me to do so at great length. I am grateful for right hon. and hon. Members to resist any amendments the kind words of my hon. Friend the Member for New that are pressed to a Division, and I urge hon. Members Forest East (Dr Lewis). I was disappointed that he was thinking of pressing their amendments not to do so. not at the time he made his speech planning to support the Government, but I hope that he may have reconsidered. Mr MacNeil: To recap the debate, the hon. Member I am happy to be on what he described as a sticky for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) made a very wicket. I want to correct one point. The coalition agreement good speech majoring on fairness. He mentioned missing to have a referendum was not a deal done behind closed the bus, and it seems to me that the Deputy Prime doors. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, when Minister missed the bus on fairness with his differential he was leader of the Opposition, came and put that treatment of voters. The hon. Gentleman’s amendment point to members of the parliamentary party, as my cites six months; I cite 18 months as a maximum. The hon. Friend will remember, before the agreement was point of agreement is that the date must be changed to reached with the Liberal Democrats. prevent the differential treatment of voters. He also made a good point about the BBC. Not understanding Dr Julian Lewis: Will my hon. Friend give way? the voters has been a problem with the media, and with media management and presentation. Only 3% of the Mr Harper: If my hon. Friend will forgive me, I want BBC output comes from Scotland, Wales and Northern to make some progress. Ireland, which constitute 17% of the UK population. The right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), an Dr Lewis: Very wise. apostle of AV, naturally supports AV, but he does not support the date. I look forward to seeing him in the Mr Harper: The Chairman of the Scottish Affairs Lobby, and I am sure that narrow party political Committee made a number of points. I think that I considerations will not prevent him from voting. The dealt with some of them in interventions. My hon. hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh), a fair and Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford made progressive person if ever there were one, made a good a speech with good humour. I think he was underplaying speech. His arguments were on the issues, not on side his reputation when he said that 90% of constituents calculations for party political gain. The hon. Member did not know who he was. I am sure that if that was true for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) and if more of them knew who he was, he would get an repeated the point that the devolved Governments were even more impressive result. not consulted and that there will be differential treatment The hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) across the UK. He argued that the referendum should and the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) be held in September—I am not against that at all; the made some serious points about the operational issues point of agreement is that there should be a different in Northern Ireland. The franchise for Northern Ireland date from 5 May. Assembly elections and for local elections is the same. The hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) The referendum would be conducted on the Westminster made some excellent arguments. What can I say about franchise. So there would be two franchises operating, her Gaelic pronunciation, other than that I expect to see but that would be the same position as when local her at the Mòd in Thurso by the end of the week, elections are combined with a general election. doubtless singing a Gaelic song? For Members who do As for the ID requirements, the legislation will provide not know what the Mòd is, it shows that we are more that the requirements for the referendum and the Assembly than two nations in one state. The hon. Lady said that elections will be the same. I understand that my right she might need to examine her conscience. I would be hon. Friend the Secretary of State intends that the more than happy to help her do so in the Lobby very inconsistencies between ID requirements for voters in shortly. the Assembly and local elections will be dealt with The hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) before the polls next year. illustrated our veritable rainbow coalition against 5 May. The final point that I want to make, I am sure hon. She made practical points about congestion on election Members will be pleased to know, is in response to my day at polling stations, which were underlined by the hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams), right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) who talked about consultation. On Second Reading my and by the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister said that The hon. Member for Belfast East made a cracking, we had not introduced the provisions on combination quick-fire factual speech, and she also hit on the difficulties in the Bill because we wanted to take the time through with the media and with the Royal Mail. I only wish she the summer to work with the Electoral Commission, had spoken to the absent Deputy Prime Minister before others in government in the territorial offices and with he landed the hon. Member for Epping Forest in it. electoral administrators across the United Kingdom. I [Interruption.] She wrote to him, she says from a sedentary have written today to members of the Select Committee position. She also mentioned the opportunity for cross-party on Political and Constitutional Reform, Opposition co-operation that has been lost in the north of Ireland. I spokesmen and others with an interest in the Bill, imagine that outside Scotland cross-party co-operation including Members who spoke on Second Reading or is more needed, including in Northern Ireland. who have tabled amendments, and leaders of parties I am sure that the fire in the hon. Lady’s belly had represented in the devolved Parliament and Assemblies, nothing to do with the fact that the Faroe Islands have to set out when we propose to table those amendments drawn with Northern Ireland. Perhaps this is a good and debate them in the House, and to give them an idea point at which to mention that I am chairman of the 257 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 258 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Mr MacNeil] Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) brought humour to the debate and illuminated internal Labour all-party Faroe Islands group, which will hold a meeting party thinking: vote for a referendum because the Lords before the end of the month—everyone is welcome. will overturn it. He is supporting 5 May, and I will [Interruption.] I hope there will not be a differential welcome that. turnout. Despite the Faroe result, Scotland are drawing The respect agenda should be alive and if it was, 2-2 with Spain at the moment. [Interruption.] Not very 5 May would not be happening. The Minister is a united at the moment, eh? reasonable man and he batted heroically on a very The hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) sticky wicket. He personifies in the Chamber the maxim called for a level playing field, and he highlighted the that one can disagree with a person’s argument but still difference between an election for a national Parliament, respect the person. This is not a veto. This is only on one for local councils, and no elections at all in the UK. one issue. One must have respect for the other legislatures He discussed his relationship with the leader of the in the UK and they themselves will be consulted on this Liberal Democrat party. The rest of us are not sure of one issue once. If one opposes this it makes the assumption any relationship at all, and might not even be able to that the Members of the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh pick him out in an identity parade. [Interruption.] The Assembly and the Northern Irish Assembly are hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea), a renowned unreasonable people. political tipster if ever there was, says that the hon. I should not have to press the amendment to a vote. Gentleman is at the zenith of his political career—I am The Government should accept the arguments of all not sure what he means. parties on both sides about the differential treatment of The hon. Member for Glasgow South West electors and the unfairness of this in the UK, but (Mr Davidson) told us of the reservations of Members unfortunately I will have to do so. of the Scottish Parliament; 5 May was on their timetable Question put, That the amendment be made. first, but it was ignored. My amendment allows 546 other days at least; of course there will be some days that we The Committee divided: Ayes 28, Noes 323. will wish to subtract. He supported an AV referendum, Division No. 66] [9.43 pm but he did not want it to be a democratic spoiler for Holyrood. He said that this was a deal between the AYES Liberal Democrats and the Tories in support of Tory Bone, Mr Peter McDonnell, Dr Alasdair cuts. I put it to him that he prefers Tory cuts to independence Campbell, Mr Gregory Owen, Albert for Scotland. Chope, Mr Christopher Reckless, Mark Eventually, after three hours we had someone supporting Davies, Philip Redwood, rh Mr John the Government. The hon. Member for Grantham and Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Ritchie, Ms Margaret Stamford (Nick Boles) spoke about jobs, and I can Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Robertson, Angus relate again that the hon. Member for South Antrim Durkan, Mark Shannon, Jim Hollobone, Mr Philip was tipping him for promotion. I was expecting a Spectator Shepherd, Mr Richard Hosie, Stewart Simpson, David award for him later in the year, but unfortunately he just Jenkin, Mr Bernard Skinner, Mr Dennis kept talking and that seemed to slip from his grasp. He Lewis, Dr Julian Weir, Mr Mike was given a good jolt of reality by the hon. Member for Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Broxbourne (Mr Walker). Long, Naomi The right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) Lucas, Caroline Tellers for the Ayes: highlighted the fact that the majority of the speakers MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Hywel Williams and came from the devolved nations and regions of the UK. McCrea, Dr William Pete Wishart The hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) conceded that the referendum was not ideal, but it was what was NOES on offer. I would ask him to stick to his principles. But Adams, Nigel Birtwistle, Gordon to be fair to him, he was one of the few Lib Dems on the Aldous, Peter Blackman, Bob big Lib Dem issue in the Chamber. I was counting, and Alexander, rh Danny Blackwood, Nicola only 3% of the Lib Dem party turned up for the main Amess, Mr David Blunt, Mr Crispin part of the debate on their big, big issue. Andrew, Stuart Boles, Nick The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) talked of Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Bottomley, Peter the premature calculation of a political novice, namely Bacon, Mr Richard Bradley, Karen the Deputy Prime Minister. He said that the Deputy Bagshawe, Ms Louise Brake, Tom Prime Minister was in thrall to 5 May. He pointed out Baker, Norman Bray, Angie Baker, Steve Brazier, Mr Julian that the public can cope with different elections on the Baldry, Tony Brine, Mr Steve same day, but it is the media, the political system and Baldwin, Harriett Brokenshire, James even the Electoral Commission that struggle. He worried Barclay, Stephen Brooke, Annette about the Tories turning up in Northern Ireland. In Barker, Gregory Browne, Mr Jeremy Scotland, they are like the corncrake, almost a protected Barwell, Gavin Bruce, Fiona species. Bebb, Guto Bruce, rh Malcolm In a great contribution, my hon. Friend the Member Beith, rh Sir Alan Buckland, Mr Robert for Arfon (Hywel Williams) said that there were many Bellingham, Mr Henry Burley, Mr Aidan reasons against 5 May, and that is what the Chamber Benyon, Richard Burns, Conor heard tonight. There are many reasons against 5 May, Beresford, Sir Paul Burns, Mr Simon and there is nothing for 5 May other than a tawdry deal Berry, Jake Burrowes, Mr David between the governing parties. The hon. Member for Bingham, Andrew Burstow, Paul 259 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 260 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Burt, Alistair Gummer, Ben May, rh Mrs Theresa Sharma, Alok Burt, Lorely Gyimah, Mr Sam Maynard, Paul Shelbrooke, Alec Cable, rh Vince Halfon, Robert McCartney, Jason Simmonds, Mark Cairns, Alun Hames, Duncan McCartney, Karl Simpson, Mr Keith Cameron, rh Mr David Hammond, rh Mr Philip McIntosh, Miss Anne Skidmore, Chris Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hammond, Stephen McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Miss Chloe Carmichael, Mr Alistair Hancock, Matthew McVey, Esther Smith, Henry Carmichael, Neil Hancock, Mr Mike Menzies, Mark Smith, Julian Carswell, Mr Douglas Hands, Greg Mercer, Patrick Smith, Sir Robert Chishti, Rehman Harper, Mr Mark Metcalfe, Stephen Soames, Nicholas Clappison, Mr James Harrington, Richard Miller, Maria Soubry, Anna Clark, rh Greg Harris, Rebecca Mills, Nigel Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hart, Simon Milton, Anne Spencer, Mr Mark Clegg, rh Mr Nick Harvey, Nick Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stanley, rh Sir John Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Moore, rh Michael Stephenson, Andrew Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hayes, Mr John Mordaunt, Penny Stevenson, John Collins, Damian Heald, Mr Oliver Morgan, Nicky Stewart, Bob Colvile, Oliver Heath, Mr David Morris, Anne Marie Stewart, Iain Crockart, Mike Heaton-Harris, Chris Morris, David Stewart, Rory Crouch, Tracey Hemming, John Morris, James Streeter, Mr Gary Davey, Mr Edward Henderson, Gordon Mosley, Stephen Stride, Mel Davies, David T. C. Hendry, Charles Mulholland, Greg Stuart, Mr Graham (Monmouth) Herbert, rh Nick Mundell, rh David Stunell, Andrew Davies, Glyn Hinds, Damian Munt, Tessa Sturdy, Julian Davis, rh Mr David Hoban, Mr Mark Murray, Sheryll Swales, Ian de Bois, Nick Hollingbery, George Murrison, Dr Andrew Swayne, Mr Desmond Dinenage, Caroline Holloway, Mr Adam Neill, Robert Swinson, Jo Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hopkins, Kris Newmark, Mr Brooks Swire, Mr Hugo Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Horwood, Martin Newton, Sarah Syms, Mr Robert Dorries, Nadine Howarth, Mr Gerald Nokes, Caroline Teather, Sarah Doyle-Price, Jackie Howell, John Norman, Jesse Thurso, John Drax, Richard Hughes, Simon Nuttall, Mr David Timpson, Mr Edward Duncan, rh Mr Alan Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy O’Brien, Mr Stephen Tomlinson, Justin Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Hunter, Mark Offord, Mr Matthew Tredinnick, David Dunne, Mr Philip Huppert, Dr Julian Ollerenshaw, Eric Truss, Elizabeth Ellis, Michael Hurd, Mr Nick Opperman, Guy Turner, Mr Andrew Ellison, Jane Jackson, Mr Stewart Osborne, rh Mr George Uppal, Paul Ellwood, Mr Tobias James, Margot Paice, Mr James Vaizey, Mr Edward Elphicke, Charlie Javid, Sajid Parish, Neil Vara, Mr Shailesh Eustice, George Johnson, Gareth Patel, Priti Vickers, Martin Evans, Graham Johnson, Joseph Paterson, rh Mr Owen Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Evans, Jonathan Jones, Andrew Pawsey, Mark Walker, Mr Robin Evennett, Mr David Jones, Mr David Penning, Mike Wallace, Mr Ben Fabricant, Michael Jones, Mr Marcus Penrose, John Walter, Mr Robert Fallon, Michael Kawczynski, Daniel Percy, Andrew Ward, Mr David Farron, Tim Kelly, Chris Perry, Claire Watkinson, Angela Featherstone, Lynne Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Phillips, Stephen Weatherley, Mike Foster, Mr Don Kirby, Simon Pickles, rh Mr Eric Webb, Steve Fox,rhDrLiam Knight, rh Mr Greg Pincher, Christopher Wharton, James Francois, rh Mr Mark Kwarteng, Kwasi Poulter, Dr Daniel White, Chris Freeman, George Lamb, Norman Prisk, Mr Mark Whittaker, Craig Freer, Mike Lancaster, Mark Pritchard, Mark Wiggin, Bill Fullbrook, Lorraine Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Raab, Mr Dominic Willetts, rh Mr David Fuller, Richard Latham, Pauline Randall, rh Mr John Williams, Mr Mark Garnier, Mr Edward Laws, rh Mr David Reevell, Simon Williams, Roger Garnier, Mark Leadsom, Andrea Reid, Mr Alan Williams, Stephen Gauke, Mr David Lee, Jessica Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Williamson, Gavin George, Andrew Lee, Dr Phillip Robathan, Mr Andrew Willott, Jenny Gibb, Mr Nick Leech, Mr John Robertson, Hugh Wilson, Mr Rob Gilbert, Stephen Lefroy, Jeremy Robertson, Mr Laurence Wollaston, Dr Sarah Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Leslie, Charlotte Rogerson, Dan Wright, Jeremy Glen, John Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rosindell, Andrew Wright, Simon Goldsmith, Zac Lewis, Brandon Rudd, Amber Yeo, Mr Tim Goodwill, Mr Robert Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Ruffley, Mr David Young, rh Sir George Gove, rh Michael Lidington, Mr David Russell, Bob Zahawi, Nadhim Graham, Richard Lloyd, Stephen Rutley, David Tellers for the Noes: Sanders, Mr Adrian Grant, Mrs Helen Lord, Jonathan Stephen Crabb and Sandys, Laura Grayling, rh Chris Loughton, Tim James Duddridge Scott, Mr Lee Green, Damian Luff, Peter Selous, Andrew Question accordingly Greening, Justine Lumley, Karen Shapps, rh Grant negatived. Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Main, Mrs Anne Griffiths, Andrew Maude, rh Mr Francis 261 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 262 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Amendment proposed: 4, page 1, line 6, leave out Hanson, rh Mr David Munn, Meg ‘must be held on 5 May 2011’ and insert— Harman, rh Ms Harriet Murphy, rh Mr Jim Havard, Mr Dai Murphy, rh Paul ‘(None) ‘shall be held on a date specified in an order made by Healey, rh John Murray, Ian the Minister, provided that such date— Hepburn, Mr Stephen Nandy, Lisa (a) shall not coincide with any poll or polls held for any Heyes, David Nash, Pamela parliamentary assembly or regularly held local Hillier, Meg O’Donnell, Fiona government election; and Hilling, Julie Onwurah, Chi (b) shall be at least six months after the commencement of Hodge, rh Margaret Osborne, Sandra the referendum period (as specified in Schedule 1).’.— Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Ottaway, Richard (Mr Jenkin.) Hollobone, Mr Philip Owen, Albert Question put, That the amendment be made. Hopkins, Kelvin Pearce, Teresa The Committee divided: Ayes 264, Noes 326. Hosie, Stewart Perkins, Toby Howarth, rh Mr George Phillipson, Bridget Division No. 67] [9.57 pm Hunt, Tristram Qureshi, Yasmin Illsley, Mr Eric Raynsford, rh Mr Nick AYES James, Mrs Siân C. Reckless, Mark Abbott, Ms Diane Cunningham, Alex Jamieson, Cathy Redwood, rh Mr John Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Cunningham, Mr Jim Johnson, rh Alan Reeves, Rachel Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Cunningham, Tony Johnson, Diana R. Reynolds, Emma Alexander, Heidi Curran, Margaret Jones, Graham Reynolds, Jonathan Ali, Rushanara Dakin, Nic Jones, Helen Riordan, Mrs Linda Anderson, Mr David Danczuk, Simon Jones, Mr Kevan Ritchie, Ms Margaret Austin, Ian Darling, rh Mr Alistair Jones, Susan Elan Robertson, Angus Bailey, Mr Adrian David, Mr Wayne Jowell, rh Tessa Robertson, John Bain, Mr William Davidson, Mr Ian Joyce, Eric Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Balls, rh Ed Davies, Geraint Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Rotheram, Steve Banks, Gordon Davies, Philip Keeley, Barbara Roy, Mr Frank Barron, rh Mr Kevin Davis, rh Mr David Keen, Alan Roy, Lindsay Bayley, Hugh De Piero, Gloria Kendall, Liz Ruane, Chris Beckett, rh Margaret Denham, rh Mr John Khan, rh Sadiq Ruddock, rh Joan Begg, Miss Anne Dobbin, Jim Laing, Mrs Eleanor Sarwar, Anas Bell, Sir Stuart Dobson, rh Frank Lammy, rh Mr David Seabeck, Alison Benn, rh Hilary Docherty, Thomas Lavery, Ian Shannon, Jim Benton, Mr Joe Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Lazarowicz, Mark Sharma, Mr Virendra Berger, Luciana Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Leslie, Chris Sheerman, Mr Barry Betts, Mr Clive Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lewis, Mr Ivan Shepherd, Mr Richard Blackman-Woods, Roberta Doran, Mr Frank Lewis, Dr Julian Sheridan, Jim Blears, rh Hazel Dowd, Jim Lloyd, Tony Shuker, Gavin Blenkinsop, Tom Doyle, Gemma Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Simpson, David Blomfield, Paul Dromey, Jack Long, Naomi Skinner, Mr Dennis Bone, Mr Peter Dugher, Michael Love, Mr Andrew Slaughter, Mr Andy Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Durkan, Mark Lucas, Caroline Smith, rh Mr Andrew Brennan, Kevin Eagle, Ms Angela Lucas, Ian Smith, Angela (Penistone and Brown, Lyn Eagle, Maria MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Stocksbridge) Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Efford, Clive MacShane, rh Mr Denis Smith, Nick Brown, Mr Russell Elliott, Julie Mactaggart, Fiona Smith, Owen Bryant, Chris Ellman, Mrs Louise Mahmood, Shabana Soulsby, Sir Peter Buck, Ms Karen Engel, Natascha Mann, John Spellar, rh Mr John Burden, Richard Esterson, Bill Marsden, Mr Gordon Straw, rh Mr Jack Burnham, rh Andy Evans, Chris McCann, Mr Michael Stringer, Graham Byrne, rh Mr Liam Farrelly, Paul McCarthy, Kerry Stuart, Ms Gisela Campbell, Mr Alan Flello, Robert McClymont, Gregg Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Campbell, Mr Gregory Flint, rh Caroline McCrea, Dr William Tami, Mark Campbell, Mr Ronnie Flynn, Paul McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Thomas, Mr Gareth Cash, Mr William Fovargue, Yvonne McFadden, rh Mr Pat Thornberry, Emily Caton, Martin Francis, Dr Hywel McGovern, Alison Timms, rh Stephen Chapman, Mrs Jenny Gapes, Mike McGovern, Jim Trickett, Jon Chope, Mr Christopher Gardiner, Barry McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Turner, Karl Clark, Katy Gilmore, Sheila McKechin, Ann Twigg, Derek Clarke, rh Mr Tom Glindon, Mrs Mary McKinnell, Catherine Twigg, Stephen Clwyd, rh Ann Godsiff, Mr Roger Meacher, rh Mr Michael Umunna, Mr Chuka Coaker, Vernon Goggins, rh Paul Mearns, Ian Vaz, rh Keith Coffey, Ann Goodman, Helen Michael, rh Alun Vaz, Valerie Connarty, Michael Greatrex, Tom Miliband, rh David Walley, Joan Cooper, Rosie Green, Kate Miliband, rh Edward Watson, Mr Tom Cooper, rh Yvette Greenwood, Lilian Miller, Andrew Watts, Mr Dave Crausby, Mr David Griffith, Nia Mitchell, Austin Weir, Mr Mike Creagh, Mary Gwynne, Andrew Moon, Mrs Madeleine Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Creasy, Stella Hain, rh Mr Peter Morden, Jessica Whitehead, Dr Alan Cruddas, Jon Hamilton, Mr David Morrice, Graeme Wicks, rh Malcolm Cryer, John Hamilton, Mr Fabian Morris, Grahame M. Williams, Hywel 263 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 264 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Williamson, Chris Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Hancock, Matthew McVey, Esther Wilson, Phil Woolas, Mr Phil Hancock, Mr Mike Menzies, Mark Winnick, Mr David Wright, David Hands, Greg Mercer, Patrick Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Wright, Mr Iain Harper, Mr Mark Metcalfe, Stephen Wishart, Pete Tellers for the Ayes: Harrington, Richard Miller, Maria Wood, Mike Stephen Pound and Harris, Rebecca Mills, Nigel Woodcock, John Mr Bernard Jenkin Hart, Simon Milton, Anne Harvey, Nick Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Moore, rh Michael NOES Hayes, Mr John Mordaunt, Penny Adams, Nigel Crabb, Stephen Heald, Mr Oliver Morgan, Nicky Aldous, Peter Crockart, Mike Heath, Mr David Morris, Anne Marie Alexander, rh Danny Crouch, Tracey Heaton-Harris, Chris Morris, David Amess, Mr David Davey, Mr Edward Hemming, John Morris, James Andrew, Stuart Davies, David T. C. Henderson, Gordon Mosley, Stephen Arbuthnot, rh Mr James (Monmouth) Hendry, Charles Mulholland, Greg Bacon, Mr Richard Davies, Glyn Herbert, rh Nick Mundell, rh David Bagshawe, Ms Louise de Bois, Nick Hinds, Damian Munt, Tessa Baker, Norman Dinenage, Caroline Hoban, Mr Mark Murray, Sheryll Baker, Steve Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hollingbery, George Murrison, Dr Andrew Baldry, Tony Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Holloway, Mr Adam Neill, Robert Baldwin, Harriett Dorries, Nadine Hopkins, Kris Newmark, Mr Brooks Barclay, Stephen Doyle-Price, Jackie Horwood, Martin Newton, Sarah Barker, Gregory Drax, Richard Howarth, Mr Gerald Nokes, Caroline Barwell, Gavin Duncan, rh Mr Alan Howell, John Norman, Jesse Bebb, Guto Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Hughes, Simon Nuttall, Mr David Beith, rh Sir Alan Dunne, Mr Philip Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy O’Brien, Mr Stephen Bellingham, Mr Henry Ellis, Michael Huppert, Dr Julian Offord, Mr Matthew Benyon, Richard Ellison, Jane Hurd, Mr Nick Ollerenshaw, Eric Beresford, Sir Paul Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jackson, Mr Stewart Opperman, Guy Berry, Jake Elphicke, Charlie James, Margot Osborne, rh Mr George Bingham, Andrew Eustice, George Javid, Sajid Paice, Mr James Birtwistle, Gordon Evans, Graham Johnson, Gareth Parish, Neil Blackman, Bob Evans, Jonathan Johnson, Joseph Patel, Priti Blackwood, Nicola Evennett, Mr David Jones, Andrew Paterson, rh Mr Owen Blunt, Mr Crispin Fabricant, Michael Jones, Mr David Pawsey, Mark Boles, Nick Fallon, Michael Jones, Mr Marcus Penning, Mike Bottomley, Peter Farron, Tim Kawczynski, Daniel Penrose, John Bradley, Karen Featherstone, Lynne Kelly, Chris Percy, Andrew Brake, Tom Field, rh Mr Frank Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Perry, Claire Bray, Angie Foster, Mr Don Kirby, Simon Phillips, Stephen Brazier, Mr Julian Fox,rhDrLiam Knight, rh Mr Greg Pickles, rh Mr Eric Brine, Mr Steve Francois, rh Mr Mark Kwarteng, Kwasi Pincher, Christopher Brokenshire, James Freeman, George Lamb, Norman Poulter, Dr Daniel Brooke, Annette Freer, Mike Lancaster, Mark Prisk, Mr Mark Browne, Mr Jeremy Fullbrook, Lorraine Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Pritchard, Mark Bruce, Fiona Fuller, Richard Latham, Pauline Raab, Mr Dominic Bruce, rh Malcolm Garnier, Mr Edward Laws, rh Mr David Randall, rh Mr John Buckland, Mr Robert Garnier, Mark Leadsom, Andrea Reevell, Simon Burley, Mr Aidan Gauke, Mr David Lee, Jessica Reid, Mr Alan Burns, Conor George, Andrew Lee, Dr Phillip Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Burns, Mr Simon Gibb, Mr Nick Leech, Mr John Robathan, Mr Andrew Burrowes, Mr David Gilbert, Stephen Lefroy, Jeremy Robertson, Hugh Burstow, Paul Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Leslie, Charlotte Robertson, Mr Laurence Burt, Alistair Glen, John Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rogerson, Dan Burt, Lorely Goldsmith, Zac Lewis, Brandon Rosindell, Andrew Cable, rh Vince Goodwill, Mr Robert Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rudd, Amber Cairns, Alun Gove, rh Michael Lidington, Mr David Ruffley, Mr David Cameron, rh Mr David Graham, Richard Lloyd, Stephen Russell, Bob Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Grant, Mrs Helen Lord, Jonathan Rutley, David Carmichael, Mr Alistair Gray, Mr James Loughton, Tim Sanders, Mr Adrian Carmichael, Neil Grayling, rh Chris Luff, Peter Sandys, Laura Carswell, Mr Douglas Green, Damian Lumley, Karen Scott, Mr Lee Chishti, Rehman Greening, Justine Macleod, Mary Selous, Andrew Clappison, Mr James Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Main, Mrs Anne Shapps, rh Grant Clark, rh Greg Griffiths, Andrew Maude, rh Mr Francis Sharma, Alok Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Gummer, Ben May, rh Mrs Theresa Shelbrooke, Alec Clegg, rh Mr Nick Gyimah, Mr Sam Maynard, Paul Simmonds, Mark Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Halfon, Robert McCartney, Jason Simpson, Mr Keith Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hames, Duncan McCartney, Karl Skidmore, Chris Collins, Damian Hammond, rh Mr Philip McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Miss Chloe Colvile, Oliver Hammond, Stephen McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Henry 265 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 266 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Smith, Julian Vaizey, Mr Edward Amendment 205, page 2, line 2, after ‘amgen’, insert Smith, Sir Robert Vara, Mr Shailesh ‘plws’. Soames, Nicholas Vickers, Martin Soubry, Anna Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Amendment 142, page 2, line 4, at end insert— Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Walker, Mr Robin ‘(4) In Scotland, the following Gaelic version of the question is Spencer, Mr Mark Wallace, Mr Ben also on ballot papers— Stanley, rh Sir John Walter, Mr Robert Rangaich do roghainn a thaobh an t-siostaim taghaidh buill gu Stephenson, Andrew Ward, Mr David Taigh nan Cumantan? (a) Bhòt Eadar-roghnach (b) A’Chiad Stevenson, John Watkinson, Angela Bhuannaiche (c) Bhòt Mhalairteach Shingilte.’. Stewart, Bob Weatherley, Mike Stewart, Iain Webb, Steve Amendment 14, in schedule 1, page 15, line 30 leave Stewart, Rory Wharton, James out Streeter, Mr Gary White, Chris ‘in favour of each answer to the question’ Stride, Mel Whittaker, Craig and insert Stuart, Mr Graham Wiggin, Bill Stunell, Andrew Willetts, rh Mr David ‘in answer to the questions’. Sturdy, Julian Williams, Mr Mark Amendment 15, page 19, line 24, leave out ‘question’ Swales, Ian Williams, Roger and insert ‘questions’. Swayne, Mr Desmond Williams, Stephen Swinson, Jo Williamson, Gavin Amendment 16, in schedule 2, page 26, line 39, leave Swire, Mr Hugo Willott, Jenny out ‘question’ and insert ‘questions’. Syms, Mr Robert Wilson, Mr Rob Amendment 17, line 17, leave out ‘answer’ and insert Teather, Sarah Wollaston, Dr Sarah ‘answers’. Thurso, John Wright, Jeremy Amendment 18, page 32, line 16, after ‘only’, insert Timpson, Mr Edward Wright, Simon Tomlinson, Justin Yeo, Mr Tim ‘in relation to each question’. Tredinnick, David Young, rh Sir George Amendment 19, page 47, line 22, leave out ‘to the Truss, Elizabeth Zahawi, Nadhim referendum question’ and insert Turner, Mr Andrew Tellers for the Noes: ‘either or both of the referendum questions’. Tyrie, Mr Andrew James Duddridge and Uppal, Paul Mark Hunter Amendment 143, page 54, leave out lines 7 to 16 and insert Question accordingly negatived. ‘In England the ballot shall be as follows:

Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): I beg to Front of ballot paper move amendment 7, in clause 1, page 1, leave out from line 7 to end of line 4 on page 2 and insert— Rank your preference for the system for electing members to the ‘(3) The questions that are to appear on the ballot paper are— House of Commons “(1) Do you want to change the current “first past the Please rank in order of preference (1,2,3) post” system for electing Members of Parliament to the House of Commons? You must mark at least one number on the ballot (2) If there were a change, list your order of preference, 1, 2, 3, for the United Kingdom to adopt: Alternative Vote (a) The ‘alternative vote’ system, First Past the Post (b) The ‘additional member’ system, or Single Transferable Vote (c) The ‘single transferable vote’ system with multi- member constituencies?”. In Wales, the ballot paper shall be as follows: (4) In Wales, a Welsh version of the question is also to appear on the ballot papers. Front of ballot paper (5) The voting for the second question in the referendum shall be in accordance with section (Counting of votes on second Graddiwch pa gyfundrefn o ethol aelodau i Ty’r Cyffredin sydd well question of referendum).’. gennych chi The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means Rhowch pa gynfundrefn sydd well gennych chi yn ôl trefn blaenoriaeth (Dawn Primarolo): With this it will be convenient to (1,2,3) discuss the following: Rhaid i chi farcio o leiaf un rhif ar y papur pleidleisio. Government amendment 230. Rank your preference for the system for electing members to the Amendment 140, page 1, leave out lines 8 to 11 House of Commons and insert— Please Rank in order of preference (1,2,3) ‘Rank your preference for the system for electing members to the You must mark at least one number on the ballot. House of Commons (a) Alternative Vote (b) First Past The Post (c) The Single Transferable Vote.’. Pleidlais Amgen/ Alternative Amendment 204, page 1, line 9, after ‘vote’, insert ‘plus’. Vote Government amendment 231. Cyntaf i’r Felin/ First Past the Amendment 141, page 2, line leave out lines 1 to Post 4 and insert— Pleidlais Sengl ‘Graddiwch pa gyfundrefn o ethol aelodau i Ty’r Cyffredin sydd Drosglwyddadwy/ Single well gennych chi. (a) Pleidlais Amgen (b) Cyntaf i’r Felin (c) Transferable Vote Pleidlais Sengl Drosglwyddadwy.’. 267 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 268 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill In Scotland, the ballot paper shall be as follows: Amendment 47, page 57, line 18, leave out ‘you are voting for’ and insert Front of ballot paper ‘to question 1 you are voting for, and indicate your preferences in relation to question 2’. Rangaich do roghainn a thaobh an t-siostaim taghaidh buill gu Taigh nan Cumantan Amendment 48, page 58, line 32, after ‘only’ insert ‘in relation to question 1, and indicate your preferences in Rangaich iad a rèir do roghainn (1,2,3) relation to question 2’. Feumaidh tu co-dhiù aon àireamh a chomharrachadh sa bhaileat. Amendment 49, page 59, line 2, leave out ‘you are Rank your preference for the system for electing members to the voting for’ and insert House of Commons ‘to question 1 you are voting for, and indicate your preferences in Please Rank in order of preference (1,2,3) relation to question 2’. You must mark at least one number on the ballot. Amendment 50, page 60, line 6, leave out ‘you are voting for’ and insert Bhòt Eadar-rognach/ Alternative ‘to question 1 you are voting for, and indicate your preferences in Vote relation to question 2’. A’ChiadBhuannaiche/ First Past Amendment 51, page 60, line 7 after ‘only’ insert the Post ‘in relation to question 1, and indicate your preferences in Bhòt Mhalairteach Shinglite/ relation to question 2’. Single Transferable Vote Amendment 52, page 63, line 15, leave out ‘you are voting for’ and insert Amendment 20, page 54, leave out lines 9 to 16 and insert— ‘to question 1 you are voting for, and indicate your preferences in relation to question 2’. Vote (X) once for question 1 Amendment 53, page 63, line 17, after ‘only’, insert 1. Do you want to change the Yes ‘in relation to question 1, and indicate your preferences in current “first past the post” relation to question 2’. system for electing Members of Amendment 54, page 67, line 5, leave out ‘you are Parliament to the House of voting for’ and insert Commons No ‘to question 1 you are voting for, and indicate your preferences in relation to question 2’. Then list your preference for what new system might be adopted Amendment 55, page 67, line 9, after ‘only’, insert by numbering 1, 2, 3 for question 2 ‘in relation to question 1, and indicate your preferences in 2. If there was a change do you want the United Kingdom to relation to question 2’. adopt: Amendment 56, page 73, line 5, leave out ‘you are (a) The “alternative vote” system or voting for’ and insert (b) The “additional member ‘to question 1 you are voting for, and indicate your preferences in system” or relation to question 2’. (c) The “single transferable Amendment 57, page 73, line 7, after ‘only’ insert vote” system with three member ‘in relation to question 1, and indicate your preferences in constituencies?’. relation to question 2’. Amendment 144, in clause 6, page 4, leave out lines 27 Government amendment 232. and 28 and insert— Amendment 223, page 54, line 12, after ‘vote’, insert ‘(a) the answer “alternative vote” is selected in the ‘plus’. referendum, and’. Amendment 21, page 55, leave out line 3. Amendment 8, page 4, line 28, after ‘“No”’, insert Amendment 22, page 55, line 4, leave out ‘question’ ‘to Question 1, and the alternative vote system is selected in and insert ‘questions’. response to question 2 in the referendum’. Amendment 23, page 55, line 5, leave out ‘question’ Amendment 9, page 4, line 32, at end insert— and insert’ questions’. ‘(1A) The Minister must make an order bringing into force section (The single transferable vote system: amendments) if— Amendment 24, page 55, leave out line 20. (a) the single transferable vote system is selected in Amendment 25, page 55, line 25, leave out ‘question’ response to question 2 of the referendum, and and insert ‘questions’. (b) the draft of an Order in Council laid before Parliament Amendment 26, page 55, line 26, leave out ‘question’ under subsection (5A) of section 3 of the Parliamentary and insert ‘questions’. Constituencies Act 1986 (substituted by section 8(6) below) which provides for multi-member constituencies, Amendment 27, page 55, line 27, leave out ‘question’ in accordance with subsection (4) of section 3 of that and insert ‘questions’. Act as amended by section 8(5A) below, has been Amendment 28, page 55, line 32, leave out ‘question’ submitted to Her Majesty in Council under section 4 and insert ‘questions’. of that Act. (1B) The Minister must make an order bringing into force Amendment 46, page 57, line 15,after ‘only’, insert section (The additional member system: amendments) if— ‘in relation to question 1, and indicate your preferences in (a) the single transferable vote system is selected in relation to question 2’. response to question 2 of the referendum, and 269 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 270 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill (b) the draft of an Order in Council laid before Parliament “50A(1) The returning officer shall give public notice of under subsection (5A) of section 3 of the Parliamentary the total number of votes given for each political Constituencies Act 1986 (substituted by section 8(6) party together with the number of rejected ballot below) which provides for the additional member papers under each head shown in the statement of system, in accordance with subsection (4) of section 3 rejected ballot papers and return this information to of that Act as amended by section 8(5A) below, has the Clerk of the Crown. been submitted to Her Majesty in Council under (2) The Clerk of the Crown shall determine the allocation section 4 of that Act.’. of top-up seats in England, Scotland, Wales and Amendment 145, page 4, line 33, leave out from ‘if’ to Northern Ireland, by applying the D’Hondt formula second ‘the’ in line 34 and insert to the total aggregated top-up votes in each of the four parts of the United Kingdom, as declared by ‘the answer “alternative vote” is not selected in the referendum’. each and every returning officer in that part.”.’. Amendment 10, page 4, line 34, leave out from ‘“No”’ Amendment 221, in schedule 6, page 144, line 29, at to end and insert beginning insert— ‘to Question 1, the Minister must make an order repealing the ‘Constituency ballot’. alternative vote provisions and section (The single transferable Amendment 222, page 144, line 39, at end insert— vote system: amendments) and section (The additional member system: amendments).’. ‘Top-Up ballot Amendment 11, page 4, line 39, leave out ‘subsection Vote for one political party only. Put no other mark on the (1)’ and insert ‘subsections (1), (1A) or (1B)’. ballot paper, or your vote may note be counted’. Amendment 206, in clause 7, page 5, leave out lines 2 Amendment 12, in clause 8, page 7, line 9, at end to 11 and insert— insert— ‘(5A) In subsection (4) the words are inserted at the end— ‘How constituency votes are to be given “and each such report shall also provide for multi-member 37A (1) A voter votes by marking a constituency ballot paper constituencies of three members, stating the name by and a top-up ballot paper. which they recommend that each such area should be (2) A voter marks the constituency ballot paper with— known, and for the additional member system as provided for in the Scotland Act 1998, as close as (a) the number 1 opposite the name of the candidate who possible to 57 per cent. to be allocated for constituency is the voter’s first preference (or, as the case may be, representatives and the remaining seats to be allocated the only candidate for whom the voter wishes to for closed party lists.”.’. vote), Amendment 13, in clause 16, page 13, line 3, at end (b) if the voter wishes, the number 2 opposite the name of the candidate who is the voter’s second preference, insert— ‘(1A) Section (The single transferable vote system: amendments) and so on. comes into force in accordance with provision made by an order (3) The voter may mark as many preferences (up to the under section 6(1A).’. number of candidates) as the voter wishes. New clause 3—The single transferable vote system: (4) A voter marks the top-up ballot paper with a mark amendments— opposite a single political party list of candidates.’. ‘(1) Within one month of the coming into force of this section, Amendment 207, page 5, line 13, after ‘How’, insert the Minister must lay before Parliament a draft of an order ‘constituency’. amending the parliamentary elections rules as set out in Schedule Amendment 208, page 5, line 16, leave out 1 to the 1983 Act so as to provide for a system of a single transferable vote in multi-member constituencies. ‘ballot papers and so to determine which candidate is elected’ (2) An order under subsection (1) above may make any and insert amendments to primary or secondary legislation necessary to ‘constituency ballot papers and so determine which constituency give effect to the use of the single transferable vote in the United candidate is elected, and how top-up votes are to be counted and Kingdom parliamentary elections. so determine the allocation of top-up seats to political parties.’. (3) An order under subsection (1) may not be made unless a Amendment 209, page 5, line 34, at end insert— draft of the order has been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each House of Parliament.’. ‘(5A) Top-up ballots shall be counted simultaneously’. New clause 4—The additional member system: Amendment 210, page 5, line 36, after ‘no’, insert amendments— ‘constituency’. ‘(1) Within one month of the coming into force of this section, Amendment 211, page 5, line 40, after ‘each’, insert the Minister must lay before Parliament a draft of an order ‘constituency’. amending the parliamentary elections rules as set out in Schedule 1 to the 1983 Act so as to provide for an additional member system. Amendment 212, page 5, line 42, after ‘which’, insert ‘constituency’. (2) An order under subsection (1) above may make any amendments to primary or secondary legislation necessary to Amendment 213, page 5, line 43, after ‘rejected’, give effect to the use of the additional member system in United insert ‘constituency’. Kingdom parliamentary elections. Amendment 214, page 6, line 5, after ‘each’, insert (3) An order under subsection (1) may not be made unless a ‘constituency’. draft of the order has been laid before, and approved by a Amendment 215, page 6, line 7, after ‘which’, insert resolution of, each House of Parliament.’. ‘constituency’. New clause 5—Counting of votes on second question of referendum— Amendment 216, page 6, line 8, after ‘the’, insert ‘constituency’. ‘(1) A voter votes by marking the ballot paper with— Amendment 217, page 6, line 9, at end insert— (a) the number 1 opposite the name of the option that is the voter’s first preference (or, as the case may be, the ‘(2A) After rule 50 in that Schedule there is inserted— only option for whom the voter wishes to vote), 271 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 272 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill (b) if the voter wishes, the number 2 opposite the name of (b) which option was eliminated; the option that is the voter’s second preference, and (c) the number of rejected ballot papers.’. so on. New clause 15—Commencement or repeal of amending (2) The voter may mark as many preferences (up to the provisions: Single transferable vote— number of options) as the voter wishes. ‘(1) The Minister must make an order bringing into force (3) Votes shall be allocated to options in accordance with section (Single transferable vote system: amendments), Schedule voters’ first preferences and, if one option has more votes than (Single transferable vote system: further amendments) and Part 1 the other options put together, that option is selected. of Schedule 7 (Single transferable vote provisions) if— (4) If not, the options with the fewest votes is eliminated and (a) the answer “Single Transferable Vote” is selected in the that option’s votes shall be dealt with as follows— referendum, and (a) each vote cast by a voter who also ranked one or more (b) the draft of an Order in Council laid before Parliament of the remaining options shall be reallocated to that under subsection (5A) of section 3 of the Parliamentary remaining option or (as the case may be) to the one Constituencies Act 1986 (substituted by section 8(6) that the voter ranked highest; (below) has been submitted to Her Majesty in Council (b) any votes not reallocated shall play no further part in under section 4 of that Act. the counting. (2) If the answer “Single Transferable Vote” is not selected, the (5) If after that stage of counting one option has more votes Minister must make an order repealing the single transferable than the other remaining options put together, that option is vote provisions. selected. (3) An order under subsection (1) must bring the single (6) If not, the process mentioned in subsection (4) above shall transferable vote provisions into force on the same day as the be repeated as many times as necessary until one option has more coming into force of the Order in Council in terms of the draft votes than the other remaining options put together, and so is referred to in paragraph (b) of that subsection. selected. (4) An order under subsection (1) may make transitional or (7) If no option is selected at the first stage of counting, the saving provision.’. returning officer shall, immediately after that stage, record and New clause 16—Single transferable vote system: make publicly available the following information— amendments— (a) the number of first-preference votes obtained by each option; ‘(1) In Schedule 1 to the 1983 Act (Parliamentary elections rules), after rule 37 there is inserted— (b) which option was eliminated; “How votes are to be given (c) the number of rejected ballot papers. 37A(1) A voter votes by marking the ballot paper with— (8) Immediately after each subsequent stage of counting, (a) the number 1 opposite the name of the candidate except the final stage, the returning officer shall record and make who is the voter’s first preference (or, as the case publicly available the following information— may be, the only candidate for whom the voter (a) the number of votes obtained by each option at that wishes to vote), stage; (b) if the voter wishes, the number 2 opposite the name (b) which option was eliminated at that stage; of the candidate who is the voter’s second (c) the number of votes for the option eliminated at the preference, previous stage that were not reallocated.’. and so on. New clause 14—Counting of votes in the referendum— (2) The voter may mark as many preferences (up to the ‘(1) A voter votes by marking the ballot paper with— number of candidates) as the voter wishes.”. (a) the number 1 opposite the name of the option that is (2) After rule 45 in that Schedule there is to be inserted— the voter’s first preference (or, as the case may be, the “How votes are to be counted only option for whom the voter wishes to vote), 45A(1) This rule sets out how votes are to be counted, in (b) if the voter wishes, the number 2 opposite the name of one or more stages of counting, in order to give effect the option that is the voter’s second preference, and to the preferences marked by voters on their ballot so on. papers and so to determine which candidate is (2) The voter may mark as many preferences (up to the elected. number of options) as the voter wishes. First stage (3) This rule sets out how votes are to be counted, in one or 45B(1)The returning officer shall sort the valid ballot more stages of counting, in order to give effect to the preferences papers into parcels according to the candidates for marked by voters on their ballot papers and so to determine whom first preference votes are given. which options are selected. (2) The returning officer shall then— (4) Votes shall be allocated to options in accordance with (a) count the number of ballot papers in each parcel; voters’ first preferences and, if one option has more votes that (b) credit the candidate receiving the first preference the other options put together, that option is selected. vote with one vote for each ballot paper; and (5) If not, the options with the fewest votes are eliminated and (c) record those numbers. that option’s votes shall be dealt with as follows— (3) The returning officer shall also ascertain and record (a) each vote cast by a voter who also ranked one or more the total number of valid ballot papers. of the remaining options shall be reallocated to that The quota remaining option or (as the case may be) to the one that the voter ranked highest; 45C(1)The returning officer shall divide the total number of valid ballot papers for the constituency by a (b) any votes not reallocated shall play no further part in number exceeding by one the number of members to the counting. be elected at the election for that constituency. (6) If no option is selected at the first stage of counting, the (2) The result of the division under paragraph (1) returning officer shall, immediately after that stage, record and (Ignoring any decimal places), increased by one, is make publicly available the following information— the number of votes needed to secure the return of a (a) the number of first-preference votes obtained by each candidate as a member (in this Schedule referred to option; as the ‘quota’). 273 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 274 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Return of members of House of Commons (b) there are no ballot papers to be transferred under 45D(1)Where, at any stage of the count, the number of paragraph 5 or this paragraph, the returning votes for a candidate equals or exceeds the quota, the officer shall exclude from the election at that stage candidate is deemed to be elected. the candidate with the then lowest number of (2) A candidate is returned as a member of the House of votes. Commons when declared to be elected in accordance (2) The returning officer shall sort the ballot papers for the with paragraph 8(1). candidate excluded under sub-paragraph (1) of this paragraph into parcels so that they are grouped— Transfer of ballot papers (a) according to the next available preference given on 45E(1)Where, at the end of any stage of the count, the those papers; and number of votes credited to any candidate exceeds the (b) where no such preference is given, as a parcel of quota and, subject to paragraphs 5 and 8, one or non-transferable papers. more vacancies remain to be filled, the returning officer shall sort the ballot papers received by that (3) The returning officer shall, in accordance with this candidate into further parcels so that they are grouped— article, transfer each parcel of ballot papers referred to in sub-paragraph (2)(a) to the continuing candidate (a) according to the next available preference given on for whom the next available preference is given on those papers; and those papers and shall credit such continuing candidates (b) where no such preference is given, as a parcel of with an additional number of votes calculated in non-transferable papers. accordance with sub-paragraph (4). (2) The returning officer shall, in accordance with this (4) The vote on each ballot paper transferred under paragraph and paragraph 5, transfer each parcel of sub-paragraph (3) shall have a transfer value of one ballot papers referred to in sub-paragraph (1)(a) to unless the vote was transferred to the excluded the continuing candidate for whom the next available candidate in which case it will have the same transfer preference is given on those papers and shall credit value as when transferred to the candidate excluded such continuing candidates with an additional number under sub-paragraph (1). of votes calculated in accordance with sub-paragraph (3). (5) This paragraph is subject to paragraph 45H. (3) The vote on each ballot paper is transferred under Exclusion of candidates: supplementary provisions sub-paragraph (2) shall have a value (‘the transfer 45H(1) If, when a candidate has to be excluded under value’) calculated as follows— paragraph 6— A (a) two or more candidates each have the same number B of votes; and (b) no other candidate has fewer votes, sub-paragraph where: (2) applies. A = the value which is calculated by multiplying the (2) Where this sub-paragraph applies— surplus of the transferring candidate by the value of (a) regard shall be had to the total number of votes the ballot paper when received by that candidate; and credited to those candidates at the end of the most B = the total number of votes credited to that candidate, recently preceding stage of the count at which they the calculation being made to five decimal places had an unequal number of votes and the candidate (any remainder being ignored). with the lowest number of votes at that stage shall (4) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (3)— be excluded; and “transferring candidate” means the candidate from (b) where the number of votes credited to those candidates whom the ballot paper is being transferred; and was equal at all stages, the returning officer shall “the value of the ballot paper” means— decide, by lot, which of those candidates is to be (e) for a ballot paper on which a first preference excluded. vote is given for the transferring candidate, Filling of last vacancies one; and 45I(1)Where the number of continuing candidates is equal (f) in all other cases, the transfer value of the ballot to the number of vacancies remaining unfilled, the paper when received by the transferring candidate. continuing candidates are deemed to be elected. Transfer of ballot papers: supplementary provisions (2) Where the last vacancies can be filled under this 45F(1) If, at the end of any stage of the count, the number paragraph, no further transfer shall be made. of votes credited to two or more candidates exceeds By-elections the quota the returning officer shall— 45J(1) Where a vacancy occurs in any constituency, (a) first sort the ballot papers of the candidate with the paragraphs (45A) to (45H) apply to the subsequent highest surplus; and by-election. (b) then transfer the transferable papers of that (2) Where more than one vacancy exists in a constituency candidate. when a writ for a by-election in that constituency is (2) If the surpluses determined in respect of two or more moved, only one by-election is to be held for the candidates are equal, the transferable papers of the vacant seats and this rule applies as if the number of candidate who had the highest number of votes at the members to be elected is the total number of seats end of the most recent preceding stage at which they vacant in that constituency.”.’. had unequal numbers of votes shall be transferred New schedule 1—The single transferable vote system: first. further amendments— (3) If the numbers of votes credited to two or more candidates were equal at all stages of the count, the returning officer shall decide, by lot, which candidate’s PART 1 transferable papers are to be transferred first. Exclusion of candidates AMENDMENTS OF THE PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS 45G(1) If one or more vacancies remain to be filled and— RULES (a) the returning officer has transferred all ballot 1 Schedule 1 to the 1983 Act (parliamentary elections rules) is papers which are required by paragraph 5 or this amended as follows. paragraph to be transferred; or 2 For rule 18 (poll to be taken by ballot) there is substituted— 275 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 276 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill “18 The votes at the poll shall be given by ballot in accordance (2C) A ballot paper on which the voter makes any mark with rule 37A below, the result shall be ascertained in accordance which— with rule 45A below and the successful candidate shall be (a) is clearly intended to indicate a particular declared to have been elected.”. preference for a particular candidate, but 3 In rule 29 (equipment of polling stations), in paragraph (5), for (b) is not a number (or is a number written otherwise the words after “the notice” there is substituted— than as an Arabic numeral), “Remember—use 1, 2, 3, etc... at this election—this is an election (2D) In paragraph (2C) above a reference to a mark using the Single Transferrable Vote system. includes a reference to more than one mark. Put the number 1 next to the name of the candidate who is your first (2E) Paragraphs (2B) and 2(C) above apply only if the way choice (or your only choice, if you want to vote for only one the paper is marked does not itself identify the voter candidate). You can also put the number 2 next to your second and it is not shown that the voter can be identified by choice, 3 next to your third choice, and so on. You can mark as few it.” or as many choices (up to the number of candidates) as you wish. (4) After paragraph (3) of that rule there is inserted— Do not use the same number more than once. “(3A) Where— Put no other mark on the ballot paper, or your vote may not be (a) any mark on a ballot paper is ignored by reason of counted.”. paragraph (2A) or (2B) above, and (b) the vote in question is not reallocated in accordance 4 In rule 44 (attendance at counting of votes), in paragraph (5), with rule 45A above, but would have been if the for “the candidate for whom the vote is given” there is substituted mark had been treated as indicating a preference “the candidates to whom votes are allocated under rule 45A for a remaining candidate, below”. the returning officer shall endorse the ballot paper in 5 (1) In rule 46 (re-count), for paragraph (1) there is question with the words “not reallocated” and an substituted— indication of the stage at which the mark was ignored. “(1) At the time when any stage of the counting or (3B) Where the returning officer endorses a ballot paper as re-counting of the votes is completed, a candidate or mentioned in paragraph (3A), the officer shall add to candidate’s election agent who is then present may the endoresement the words “decision objected to” if request the returning officer to have the votes an objection is made by a counting agent to the re-counted or again re-counted in respect of any or decision.”. all of the stages so far completed. (5) In paragraph (4) of that rule— (1A) The returning officer may refuse to comply with a request under paragraph (1) above if in the officer’s (a) for sub-paragraph (b) there is substituted— opinion it is unreasonable.”. “(aa) not marking the number 1 against the name of any of the candidates; (2) In paragraph (2) of that rule, after “on the completion of” (b) marking the number 1 against the name of more there is inserted “any stage of”. than one candidate;”; (3) After that paragraph there is inserted— (b) for sub-paragraph (d) there is substituted— “(3) At any time before the declaration of the result, the (d) unmarked or marked in a way that does not returning officer may, if the officer thinks fit, have indicate a clear choice as to the voter’s first (or the votes re-counted or again re-counted in respect of only) preference.”. any or all of the stages.”. 7 (1) For rule 49 (equality of votes), and the heading, there is 6 (1) In rule 47 (rejected ballot papers), in the heading there is substituted— inserted at the end “and invalid markings”. “Equality of votes: which candidate to be eliminated (2) In paragraph (1) of that rule— 49(1) This rule applies to determine which candidate is (a) for sub-paragraph (b) there is substituted— eliminated under rule 45A(3) above in a case where— “(aa) on which the number 1 has not been marked (a) there are two or more candidates with fewer votes than against the name of any of the candidates, or the others but an equal number to each other, or (b) on which the number 1 has been marked against the (b) there are three or more candidates, or remaining name of more than one candidate, or”, candidates, and they all have an equal number of (b) in sub-paragraph (d), for “void for unertainty” there is votes to each other. substituted “is marked in a way that does not indicate The candidates with an equal nunber of votes to each other a clear choice as to the voter’s first (or only) preference”; are referred to in this rule as “the tied candidates”. (c) for the words after that sub-paragraph there is substituted “shall, subject to the following provisions, (2) The candidate to be eliminated where there has been a be rejected as void and not counted at any stage.”. previous elimination is— (a) whichever of the tied candidates was allocated the (3) For paragraph (2) of that rule there is substituted— fewer or fewest votes in accordance with voters’ first “(2) A ballot paper on which a number is marked preferences, or elsewhere than in a proper place shall not be deemed (b) if that fails to resolve the tie, whichever of them had to be void for that reason alone. the fewer or fewest votes after the next stage of (2A) If a ballot paper is marked with the same number counting (if any), (other than the number 1) against the name of more than one candidate, that number (each time it appears) and so on. and any numbers after the repeated numbers shall be (3) Where there has been no previous elimination, or where ignored for the purposes of rule 45A above. there has been a previous elimination but the tie is not resolved (2B) If— under paragraph (2) above, the returning officer shall forthwith decide by lot which of the tied candidates is to be eliminated. (a) one or more preferences are validly marked on a ballot paper, and Equality of votes: which candidate to be elected (b) other marks are made on the paper which do not 49A (1) This rule applies to determine which candidate is indicate a clear intention as to the voter’s next elected under rule 45A(4) or (5) above in a case where there are preference, only two remaining candidates and they have an equal number of those other marks shall be ignored for the purposes of votes. rule 45A above. (2) The candidate to be elected is— 277 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 278 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill (a) whichever of the remaining candidates was allocated “62(1) This rule applies in relation to an election mentioned in the more votes in accordance with voters’ first rule 60(1) above. preferences, or (2) The reference in rule 45A(3) above to the candidate with (b) if that fails to resolve the tie, whichever of them had the fewest votes, in a case where— the more votes after the next stage of counting (if (a) there are two or more candidates with fewer votes than any), the others but an equal number to each other, and and so on. (b) one of them is a deceased candidate, (3) Where the tie is not resolved under paragraph (2) above, shall be taken as a reference to the deceased candidate. the returning officer shall forthwith decide by lot which of the (3) The reference in rule 45A(4) or (5) above to the candidate remaining candidates is to be elected.”. with more votes than the other remaining candidates put together, 8 In rule 50 (declaration of result), in paragraph (1), for in a case where— sub-paragraphs (a) to (c) there is substituted— (a) there are only two remaining candidates, “(a) declare the number of votes obtained by each (b) those two candidates have an equal number of votes, and candidate (including any reallocated in accordance (c) one of them is a deceased candidate, with rule 45A above), starting with the candidate with the fewest and proceeding in order to the shall be taken as a reference to the candidate other than the candidate with the most; deceased candidate. (aa) declare which is the candidate who (in accordance (4) Where paragraph (2) or (3) above applies, it applies in place with that rule is) elected; of rule 49 or 49A above.”. (ab) declare the stage at which each eliminated candidate 12 (1) The Appendix of forms is amended as follows— was eliminated and the stage at which the elected (2) In the Form of Front of Ballot Paper— candidate was elected; (a) for “VOTE FOR ONE CANDIDATE ONLY” there is (b) return the name of the elected candidate to the Clerk substituted— of the Crown; “Put the number 1 next to the name of the candidate who is (c) give public notice of the name of the elected candidate, your first choice (or your only choice, if you want to vote the number of rejected ballot papers under each head for only one candidate). shown in the statement of rejected ballot papers, the You can also put the number 2 next to your second choice, number of votes allocated to each candidate in 3 next to your third choice, and so on. accordance with voters’ first preferences, and for each You can mark as few or as many choices (up to the number subsequent stage of counting— of candidates) as you wish. (i) the name of the eliminated candidate; Do not use the same number more than once.”. (ii) the number of votes reallocated to each of the (b) the numbers on the left-hand side are omitted, together remaining candidates, and with the vertical rule separating them from the (iii) the number of votes of the candidate eliminated at particulars of the candidates. the previous stage that were not reallocated.”. (3) In the directions as to printing the ballot paper— 9 In rule 53 (return of forfeiture of candidate’s deposit), in (a) in paragraph 2(a), for “the direction to vote for one paragraph (4), for the words after “is completed,” there is candidate only” there is substituted “the directions substituted “the number of first preference votes obtained by the beginning “Put the number 1 next to the name of the candidate is found to be not more than one twentieth of the total candidate who is your first choice” and ending “Do number of first-preference votes obtained by all the candidates.”. not use the same number more than once.””; 10 (1) In rule 61 (deceased independent candidate wins), in (b) in paragraph 2(b), for the words “the vertical rules paragraph (1), for “the majority of votes is given to the deceased separating those particulars from the numbers on the candidate” there is substituted “the deceased candidate would left-hand side and the spaces on the right” there is have been elected (in accordance with rule 45A above) had he not substituted “the vertical rule separating those particulars died”. from the spaces on the right”. (2) In paragraph (2) of that rule, for sub-paragraph (a) there is (4) In the Guidance for Voters— substituted— (a) for paragraph 1 there is substituted— “(a) declare the number of votes obtained by each candidate “1 When you are given a ballot paper go to one of the (including any reallocated in accordance with rule compartments. Put the number 1 on the ballot paper 45A above, starting with the candidate with the fewest in the box to the right of the name of the candidate and proceeding in order to the candidate with the who is your first choice (or your only choice, if you most, want to vote for only one candidate). (aa) declare that the deceased candidate would have been You can also put the number 2 in the box to the right of elected had he not died,”. the name of the candidate who is your second choice, (3) For sub-paragraph (c) of that paragraph there is the number 3 in the box to the right of the name of substituted— the candidate who is your third choice, and so on. “(c) give public notice of the number of rejected ballot You can mark as few or as many choices (up to the papers under each head shown in the statement of number of candidates) as you wish. Do not use the rejected ballot papers, the number of votes allocated same number more than once.”, to each candidate in accordance with voters’ first (b) in paragraph 2, the words “Vote for one candidate preferences, and for each subsequent stage of only.” are repealed. counting— PART 2 (i) the name of the candidate eliminated, (ii) the number of votes reallocated to each of the AMENDMENTS OF OTHER PROVISIONS OF THE 1983 ACT remaining candidates, and 13 The 1983 Act is amended as follows. (iii) the number of votes of the candidate eliminated at 14 (1) In section 66 (requirement of secrecy), in subsection (2)(b), the previous stage that were not reallocated.”. for “the candidate for whom any vote is given on any particular 11 (1) For rule 62 (deceased independent candidate with equality ballot paper” there is substituted “how any particular ballot of votes) there is substituted— paper has been marked”. 279 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 280 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill (2) In subsection (3)(b) and (c) of that section, for “the (b) any number on the voter’s ballot paper indicating a candidate for whom” there is substituted “how”. subsequent preference shall be treated as reduced by (3) In subsection (3)(d) of that section, for “the name of the one.”. candidate for whom he has or has not” there is substituted “how 21 In section 166 (votes to be struck off for corrupt or illegal he has”. practices), in subsection (1), for the words from “election there (4) In subsection (4)(d) of that section, for “the candidate for shall” to the end there is substituted “election, then on a whom any vote is given on any particular ballot paper” there is scrutiny— substituted “how any particular ballot paper has been marked”. (a) there shall be disregarded any preference for the (5) In subsection (5) of that section, for “the candidate for candidate (whether a first preference or any other) whom” there is substituted “how”. indicated by a voter who is proved to have been so bribed, treated or unduly influenced, and (6) Subsections (7) and (8) of that section are repealed. (b) any number on the voter’s ballot paper indicating a (7) The amendments made by this paragraph do not apply to a subsequent preference shall be treated as reduced by local government election (within the meaning given by section one.”. 204(1) of the 1983 Act) in Scotland. 22 In section 199B (translations etc of certain documents), in 15 In section 113 (bribery), in subsection (7)— subsection (6), for the words “in the case of a parliamentary (a) for “this section the expression” there is substituted “this election or” in paragraph (a) there is substituted— section— “in the case of a parliamentary election, must have printed the (a) the expression”; following words both at the top and immediately below the list of candidates: (b) at the end there is inserted— “Put the number 1 next to the name of the candidate who is “(b) a reference to voting or refraining from voting, in your first choice (or your only choice, if you want to vote for only the case of a parliamentary election, includes a one candidate). reference to marking or refraining from marking preferences on the ballot paper; You can also put the number 2 next to your second choice, 3 (c) a reference to the vote of any voter, in the case of a next to your third choice, and so on. parliamentary election, includes a reference to the You can mark as few or as many choices (up to the number of marking of a voter’s preferences on the ballot candidates) as you wish. paper.”. Do not use the same number more than once.”, 16 In section 114 (treating), at the end there is inserted— (aa) in the case of”. “(4) Subsection (7)(b) of section 113 above has effect for the purposes of this section as it has effect for the PART 3 purposes of that one.” 17 In section 115 (undue influence), at the end there is inserted— AMENDMENTS OF OTHER ENACTMENTS “(3) Subsection (7)(b) of section 113 above has effect for Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 (c. 41) the purposes of this section as it has effect for the 23 In section 3A of the 2000 Act (four Electoral Commissioners purposes of that one.”. to be persons put forward by parties), in subsection (7), for 18 (1) In section 117 (savings as to parliamentary elections), in “votes cast for” there is substituted “first-preference votes subsection (2)(b), for “to record his vote for any particular obtained by”. candidate” there is substituted “to vote in any particular way”. 24 In section 1 of the 1986 Act (Parliamentary constituencies) in (2) In subsection (2)(c) of that section, for “recording his vote subsection (1), for “a single member” there is substituted “no for any particular candidate” there is substituted “voting in any fewer than three members except for constituencies named in particular way”. Schedule 2, rule 6 of this Act”’. 19 (1) In section 139 (trial of election petition), in subsection (6) Amendment 224, in title, line 3, after ‘vote’, insert the words “the parliamentary elections rules or”, in both places, ‘plus’. are repealed. Amendment 35, in title, line 3, after ‘system’, insert (2) After that subsection there is inserted— ‘or the single transferable vote system or the additional member “(6A) If the petition relates to an election conducted system’. under the parliamentary elections rules and it Amendment 139, in title, line 3, leave out appears that there is an equality of votes between any ‘if a majority of those voting in the referendum are in favour of candidates (a ‘tie’)— that’ (a) rule 49, 49A or 62 of those rules (whichever is relevant) shall apply for the purposes of the and insert petition; ‘or the single transferable vote system if either option is selected (b) where under rule 49 or 49A the tie fails to be in the referendum’. ‘ resolved by lot— (i) any decision made by lot by the returning officer Caroline Lucas: I am pleased to move the amendment under that rule shall, in so far as it resolves that stands in my name and those of the hon. Members the tie, be effective also for the purposes of for Clacton (Mr Carswell) and for Great Grimsby (Austin the petition, and Mitchell). I welcome the fact that the Committee is at (ii) in so far as the tie is not resolved by such a long last debating the possibility of a referendum on decision, the court shall resolve it by lot.”. electoral reform, but it is crucial that the public choose 20 In section 165 (avoidance of election for employing corrupt the voting system, not the politicians. We do not often agent), after subsection (3) there is inserted— have referendums in this country, and now that we are “(3A) In the case of a parliamentary election— planning to have one, the least that we can do is give people a real choice on their ballot papers. It is hugely (a) a vote shall be deemed in accordance with subsection (3) above to be thrown away only to the extent that it disappointing that AV is the only alternative to first indicates a preference (whether a first preference or past the post in the Bill. As a result, the Bill fails to live any other) for the person who was under the incapacity, up to the promise of genuine reform and of re-engaging and people with the political process. 281 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 282 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill 10.15 pm Caroline Lucas: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that Amendment 7 is about giving people a real choice of intervention, but in fact there are plenty of opinion electoral systems, because it is essential that the referendum polls, conducted by the Electoral Commission and others, question is not set up by the politicians to promote their that show that there is a majority for electoral reform in favoured system. Of course, I have my views about this country. We are not saying that that necessarily which system would be preferable—the Green party means STV; we are saying that we should let the people advocates the additional member system as the fairest—but decide. It is not right that politicians in this House our amendment 7 is not about promoting a favourite should basically stitch up the question and then try to system; it is about giving the public the options and present people with a Hobson’s choice between two allowing them to make their own choice. Rather than things, neither of which, as we know, people prefer. simply offering a narrow choice between first past the post and the alternative vote system, our amendment Mr Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (Con): Given that it widens the question, so that in addition to the AVoption, is not every day of the week—indeed, it is not every voters are given the opportunity to express a preference year—that we send out millions of ballot papers to for one of the other main voting systems in elections for millions of homes asking people to decide whether they UK institutions. want to change the electoral system, does my hon. There are two parts to our proposed question. The Friend not agree that the least that we can do is allow first part asks people whether they want a change from them a proper choice, from the full spectrum, regardless the current, first-past-the-post system; and for those of our personal preferences? Rather than confronting who do, the second part offers the options of the them with the politicians’ choice, we should allow them alternative vote, the additional member system, and the a full range of options. single transferable vote, to be listed in order of preference. Our amendment is needed, because it is contradictory Caroline Lucas: I absolutely agree with the hon. for the coalition to be talking about electoral reform Gentleman. In a way, it is pretty arrogant for Members while seeking to offer little more than a Hobson’s choice, to assume that the population do not have a view and between AV and first past the post. cannot make a sensible choice. Are we really saying that first past the post is such a strong and popular system Sir Alan Beith: I have every sympathy with the hon. that it justifies such a narrow question? Recent history Lady’s amendment and the argument that she is putting suggests that it is not. It is no accident that following forward. However, before she starts to attack the coalition, the collapse of the Soviet Union, not one of the eastern she must surely recognise that there is no possible or central European countries emerging from years of coalition of parties that we could join in carrying through totalitarian rule chose the Westminster model. Similarly, the present House of Commons a referendum that is AV really the only system that we should consider if would allow people the choice of the single transferable we want to change? vote, desirable though that would be, and her one-Member party in this House certainly cannot achieve that objective. I acknowledge that the alternative vote system has a number of advantages over first past the post and that, Caroline Lucas: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for in some respects, it represents a small step forward. The his intervention, but perhaps I am more optimistic than Electoral Reform Society has conducted a thorough him. I hope that the power of argument might just wake analysis of AV, and I share its assessment that there are up our fellow Members. some positives. Those positives include the ability of voters to record a sincere first preference, thus reducing Austin Mitchell (Great Grimsby) (Lab): Does my the need for tactical voting; the widening of the political hon. Friend agree that what we are doing is repairing choice available to the elector; and the disincentives that the damage done by the gutlessness of the Liberal the system offers for parties to pursue core vote strategies Democrats? They did not have the guts or the integrity that ignore the wishes of the majority of the electorate. to include in the referendum a question on a system of proportional representation, which they always purported Mr MacNeil: Does the hon. Lady agree that AV, to believe in. We are allowing the people to speak out. which the Liberal Democrats have accepted and which they imagine to be a halfway house between first past Caroline Lucas: Many millions of people in this the post and STV, is not a halfway house at all? I country will be looking at what some Members do in contend that it does not go even a quarter of the way the Committee this evening, and they will be looking towards STV—probably not even a tenth or a twentieth with a degree of perplexity, given that what we hear or a fiftieth of the way. It probably does not go even 1% many Members might do runs counter to what was in of the way towards STV.The Liberals have been bought their manifestos. off more than cheaply. Mr Stewart Jackson: I thank the hon. Lady for giving way; she is being very generous. If there was a groundswell Caroline Lucas: I agree. The alternative vote represents of popular support for the single transferable vote, a small step forward, but we should be very clear that it surely the Liberal Democrats, just after the election but is not a proportional system. We owe it to the electorate before they entered the coalition Government, would to put before them a choice that includes a genuinely have been able to persuade the Labour party to push proportional system. The debate is wider than whether through primary legislation to deliver the single transferable we should choose AV or first past the post. The relative vote. However, that was not possible because, quite merits of AV as against first past the post cannot be frankly, the single transferable vote is not generally said to cover all the arguments in a modern debate supported by the voting public of this country. about real electoral reform. 283 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 284 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Sir Alan Beith: The hon. Lady is making a constructive Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): Does the hon. Lady contribution, but she must face the fact that, if she were agree that, if we are going to spend £100,000 at a time successful in carrying her amendment, there would not when money is short, we should at least give the British then be a majority in the House in favour of a referendum people a full choice of options, rather than a limited at all. That is surely not an outcome that she would one? That would represent better value for money. want. People have already had the opportunity to vote for a referendum on AV, when the Labour party put that Caroline Lucas: I find that incredibly disappointing proposal before them at the election. Sadly, we did not and defeatist—[Interruption.] Well, it might be said win the election, and there is no groundswell of support that, had the terms of the coalition agreement been for a referendum on AV. different, and had different priorities been at the top of the list, we might not have found ourselves in this Caroline Lucas: I absolutely agree. It is also important situation. I believe that the role of politicians in this that we do not underestimate the public. Some say that House is to do what we believe to be right, and I believe voters cannot understand the different voting systems, that it is right to give people this choice. That is what but that is a very patronising position and does not bear will be respected by the electorate. scrutiny. Voters regularly manage to make the best of first past the post, for example, despite the fact that it Mr Carswell: Does my hon. Friend not agree that fails to deliver seats that reflect the votes cast. there is something rather bizarre about the position of All the systems that appear in the question we suggest the Liberal Democrats? They have been arguing for should be on the ballot paper have advantages and STV for as long as anyone can remember, but, in order drawbacks, but none are so mind-bending that the to cook up a coalition, they have abandoned their public cannot be trusted to debate and, crucially, choose reformist credentials and are now happy to settle for between them. We need to inject some health and something that is not even their preferred option. optimism back into our political system, and we can do that if we give people the chance to have a real debate Caroline Lucas: I agree, and I very much hope that and a real choice. It should not be about whether or not Liberal Democrat Members will follow us through the there is sufficient agreement in this House for putting it Lobby to support this amendment. Even if we do not to the public; it should be absolutely automatic that the win the vote tonight, this could become a self-fulfilling public have the right to choose. prophesy. If some Members are not willing to put their bodies where their mouths are, and are not prepared to Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): If the Tories and their fulfil the promises in their manifesto, we cannot be allies were interested in genuine reform, would they not surprised that people lose faith in the political process. have produced a draft constitutional reform Bill? We This amendment is about restoring faith in the political could all have discussed it and consulted the public on process; it is about trusting the electorate and delivering it. Is it not the reality that this is a shabby political deal on promises to treat them a bit better. between the Tories and their allies on the Government Benches to fix political advantage? The only party that My primary concern as we consider the Parliamentary knows it would benefit from an alternative vote system Voting System and Constituencies Bill is that it is the is the Liberal Democrat party public who should choose our voting system, not the politicians. That ought to be a principle around which Caroline Lucas: Unfortunately, I think that the hon. we can all agree. We can argue about whether to adopt Member is right that this was a shabby political deal AV-plus, first past the post, the single transferable vote done in the very smoke-filled rooms that the coalition or the additional Member system, but the principle complain about. should be that it is for the people to decide. Our political system is sick, I argue, and getting this question right provides the only road to real recovery. Mr Jackson: Does not the real-world experience of The system is sick because swing voters in just a tiny the single transferable vote system show that deals are number of seats effectively decide who is going to run made by politicians in smoke-filled rooms after elections, this country. It has resulted in the targeting of funding after the people have had the opportunity to make their at marginal constituencies and voters in most other choices? One has only to look at the anecdotal evidence parts of the country being sidelined, if not ignored. from such systems across the world to see that, in reality, the ordinary voter, having cast their ballot, is Mr Carswell: My hon. Friend is being incredibly shut out from the business of governance. That is the generous in giving way. Does she agree that if the result of the STV system. amendment were accepted and people could vote for a single transferable vote system with multi-member Caroline Lucas: That is an argument against STV, but constituencies, they would effectively be returning to I keep stressing that what we are talking about is the the Disraelian idea of three-Member boroughs, which right of the public to choose the system. When they is a profoundly Conservative idea? have that right, we can have the debate about whether STV does or does not lead to decisions being made in Caroline Lucas: Well, I thank the hon. Member, but I smoke-filled rooms. The hon. Gentleman’s assertion is perhaps agree with that slightly less than with some of rather ironic. He is concerned about what goes on in his other more constructive interventions. smoke-filled rooms, and perhaps he does not want the Let me return to my final point, which is about more public to make any decisions on this. He does not want than what kind of voting system we select, as it is about the fresh air of public opinion to be waved over our reconnecting with the public. It is not long ago that we debate tonight, but that is exactly what should happen. went through the expenses scandal and gained the sense That is why the public should decide. that people were very disillusioned with this House and 285 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 286 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Caroline Lucas] to give the alternative vote system its proper name, which is, in fact, “optional preferential voting with wanted MPs to clean up politics—whatever their preference instant run-off”? That would explain exactly what it is, of voting system. That is why I hope colleagues will leaving no ambiguity. support this amendment to depoliticise the question and give voters the option to express their real views on Mr Harper: I expected my hon. Friend to make the what electoral system we should have. point that he has just made, because I have seen his Parliament came to seen with contempt by many, amendment to that effect. Although what he says is because it was seen to be acting in its own interests and accurate, I do not think that putting the question in that not those of the people whom it was supposed to serve. way would lead to an improvement— If this amendment is rejected, people will reach the same conclusion once again—that Parliament is acting Mr Jenkin: It might put people off. in its own interests rather than trusting the public to make a decision. A stitched-up referendum that denies Mr Harper: That may well be the case, and my hon. people a real choice smacks of the old politics. Tonight Friend and I might find that a very happy outcome, but we have an opportunity to create a healthy system, when the Government drafted the original question we based on respect for the electorate and the creation of a were very clear about the fact—which was confirmed by real debate on a real question. I urge hon. Members to the Electoral Commission’s research—that it was neutral support amendment 7. and not biased. The Government’s position is that we very much want the referendum, but are neutral about Mr Harper: I want to speak to Government the outcome. The two coalition parties are not neutral amendments 230, 231 and 232, which relate to the about it, but the Government are: that is, Ministers are question, and I note that similar provisions were tabled neutral in their capacity as Ministers. I am glad that the by members of the Political and Constitutional Reform commission found that our question was neutral and Committee, so their names have been added to the not biased. Government amendments. For every referendum held However, my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich under the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) has hit on a good point: Act 2000, the Electoral Commission has a statutory the need to ensure that voters know what they are duty to consider the wording of the proposed referendum voting on. We thought it important to include in the Bill question and to publish a statement of its views on its the details of the specific form of alternative vote that intelligibility. Where the question is contained in a Bill, would be brought into effect in the event of a “yes” vote this duty is triggered when the Bill is introduced and the in the referendum. My hon. Friend characterised it report has to be submitted as soon as reasonably practicable correctly as an optional preferential system. No doubt after that. The commission completed the process for the Electoral Commission will conduct some education the referendum on the current voting system on 30 in a neutral and unbiased way. The two campaigns will September. also explain not just the mechanics of the system, but the outcomes and potential impact of introducing it or 10.30 pm retaining the existing system. I am convinced that by the end of the campaign, voters will be in no doubt about Most people whom the Electoral Commission consulted the consequences, and will therefore be able to make a felt that the existing question, as proposed by the very clear decision on 5 May next year. Government in the Bill, was neutral and not biased. Many considered it to be clear, direct, concise and straightforward. Others, however, found it difficult to George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con): I understand and confusing. The commission has therefore think that the Electoral Commission’s wording is a big suggested that the question should be changed to read: improvement. It removes words such as “adopt”, which had biased connotations in the original. I have studied “At present, the UK uses the ‘first past the post’ system to elect MPs to the House of Commons. Should the ‘alternative vote’ the commission’s research. According to one of its system be used instead?” findings, The proposal for a two-sentence question, rather than “Some people thought that the reason for changing the voting system was because the last election had resulted in a hung the one-sentence question proposed by the Government, Parliament and that perhaps AV would avoid that.” was based on evidence from the commission’s public opinion research, which involved focus groups and There is clearly a great deal of confusion about AV, interviews with members of the public as well as input which will actually lead to more rather than fewer hung from experts on plain language. The redraft avoids Parliaments. some of the slightly complex language in the original There is a second problem. In fact, AV is simply a question, abbreviates some of the terminology, and second-rate version of first past the post. Let me make splits the one long sentence in the original into two another suggestion about the wording. Perhaps it should shorter ones. refer to a “one person, one vote” system, which is what we have now, versus a multiple voting system in which Mr Jenkin: If my hon. Friend studies the focus group some people receive more votes than others—which is research conducted by the Electoral Commission, he basically what AV is. will see that what voters found most confusing about the question was the term “alternative vote”. Voters Mr Harper: I think that my hon. Friend is anticipating have very little idea what that is. Now the Electoral the referendum campaign. Tempted though I am, he Commission has told us that it will produce literature would not expect Ministers to be drawn into a debate explaining what it is to voters, but would it not be better about the merits of different electoral systems at the 287 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 288 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Dispatch Box. That will take place when we have the of a coalition Government is that we have to reach a referendum. However, he made a good point about compromise, however, and the compromise we have the need to engage in a good debate about the issue. The reached is that Conservatives have agreed to put the Electoral Commission did say in its research findings choice to the public and Liberal Democrats have had to that some members of the public had trouble with accept that although they have a vote on a system that language when it came to the use of the words “Parliament” they prefer to first past the post, that is not everything and “House of Commons”. Thinking back to the previous they would have hoped for. It has been rightly said that debate and the comments of my hon. Friend the Member there is not a majority in this House in favour of putting for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles), we in this a referendum question to the public on proportional House should consider members of the public who do representation, and I think Liberal Democrat colleagues not take an enormous interest in, or spend a great deal have been entirely sensible in reaching a compromise—as, of time on, these issues, important though we think I think, have Conservative colleagues as well. We on the they are. We need to make sure we address those people, Government Benches are clear that we want to put this and not just ourselves. question to the public. I agree with the hon. Lady that It is very important that the referendum question the public, not politicians, should choose the voting should be clear and simple to understand. The Government system. We are going to give that choice to the public welcome the commission’s helpful report. I have read it and see whether they want to stick with the existing carefully and, based on the evidence that the commission system or change it. presented, we have decided to accept its redrafted question. Caroline Lucas: I do not quite understand how the Sir Alan Beith: I must, on the grounds of language Minister can say he is happy for the public to make the simplicity, draw my hon. Friend’s attention to the Welsh decision at the same time as closing down the very version in Government amendment 231. Although my options that the public will make that decision on. I understanding of Welsh is not as wide and deep as I think that, again, we have to say that this is about would like it to be, I have not often seen the abbreviation trusting the public. It is not about what the Government “DU” used for “United Kingdom” in Welsh. I therefore or the Lib Dems want, or what any individual Members wonder whether it would be at all familiar to most want. It is about giving the public the right to choose. voters, and whether it would not be better to spell out “United Kingdom” in Welsh. Mr Harper: The hon. Lady has chosen a selection of things to put in front of the public in her amendment; it Mr Harper: I am very interested in my right hon. is just a different choice from that proposed by the Friend’s views. Having a great deal of respect for the Government. It is no more or less the choice of the Welsh language, and being frank about my inability to public, however. Unless we were to have a ballot paper speak it, I did not want to abuse it by reading out the that listed every single possible electoral system in the Welsh version of the question. I did not intend to do entire universe that has ever been thought of, it will that, and I am not going to do so. I have taken the always, to some extent, be a choice designed by politicians. precaution of talking to my hon. Friend the Under- Secretary of State for Wales. He is a Welsh speaker, and Caroline Lucas rose— he has consulted a number of colleagues. We do not think there is a problem with the language. The Electoral Mr Harper: Let me just finish responding to the Commission did highlight one potential problem to do previous intervention. Those on this side of the House with the yes/no question and words such as “should” have made a judgment, we are going to put that question and “should not” in Welsh. It felt that there was a risk to the public, and members of the coalition parties will but that, on balance, this was an improvement. We have then campaign vigorously. I think I have detected that taken its analysis on board and we have accepted its Opposition Members too will be on both sides of the drafting rather than changing it, because if we were to debate. We will have that battle and the public will make change it we would have to go through another process a decision. of assessing the accessibility. Caroline Lucas: I just wish to explain that the options The Government consider that the new version is no we have proposed for the ballot paper are not ones that less neutral than the previous one. We do not think it we picked out of a hat at random. We were trying to alters in any way the choice that the question puts to the create a set of questions that were most likely to be public, but we do think it is clearer and easier to acceptable to the House by, for example, including both understand, which is why we have accepted it. Our AV, because that was what was in the original question, amendments therefore insert the new question into clause and those existing electoral systems already used in 1 in English and Welsh, and it is replicated in English some form or another in the United Kingdom. We were only in the form of the ballot paper, which is addressed not proposing a random set of choices. Of course we in schedule 2. This is supported by members of the cannot give 100 different options, but we can propose Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, and I those voting systems that people in this country are hope the House will support it as well. more or less familiar with, perhaps because they have Let me make a point about amendment 7, to which voted for the Welsh Assembly or the Scottish Parliament. the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) There is a rationale behind what we are doing, and this spoke. It refers back to the point to which the right hon. is not a random set of options. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) drew attention. They were both right that many Liberal Mr Harper: It sounds as if the hon. Lady and those Democrat colleagues support either the single transferable on the Government Benches are doing the same thing; vote or some other form of proportional system, whereas we are putting to the House amendments that we think most Conservative party colleagues do not. The nature will get support. If she wishes to test hers and we test 289 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 290 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Mr Harper] real difficulty was pointed out by the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin), who said that ours, we will see which of us has made the right judgment the bit that the Electoral Commission discovered that about which will get the support of the majority of most people did not fully understand is what “alternative Members in this House. vote” means. I am not going to go down the route of supporting his amendment 244, which proposes Mr MacNeil: Surely it is better to give the public a “optional preferential voting with instant runoff” choice of three or perhaps four electoral systems that because I do not think that his is an unbiased question are commonly used throughout the United Kingdom, and I do not think it is intended to be helpful. It was rather than a very narrow restricted choice of two, presented with the usual finish and cheek with which he which seem to have been the subject of some sort of presents his arguments to the House. agreement in the smoke-filled rooms of this new coalition. Surely the public should be trusted and allowed to choose for themselves. 10.45 pm The speed with which the proposals were introduced, Mr Harper: Opposition Members seem awfully obsessed and the lack of consultation between all the political by smoke-filled rooms. Given that this House voted in parties in the House, the Political and Constitutional the previous Parliament to ban smoking in public places, Reform Committee and the wider community, mean I have not detected a lot of smoke in any of the rooms that it is more difficult to be confident that by May next where we have had our discussions. year there will be a full information campaign on the As I said, choices will be put to the House this precise nature of the alternative vote system. evening; if the opinion of the House is tested, the House can make a judgment about which of the questions I happen to support alternative vote. I was selected as it finds most acceptable. I hope that hon. Members will the candidate in Rhondda by the Labour party under support the amendments that I have proposed, which alternative vote, although as it happens I won on first the Government have tabled. The hon. Member for preferences. I happen to be one of the very few Members Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) is perfectly free to of Parliament who, in 2005, was elected by more than test hers too, and we will see where the balance of 40% of not just those who voted, but all the electorate, opinion in the House lies. Given that we have only including those in Rhondda who did not vote. I none 18 minutes left and we are dealing with a number of the less support alternative vote, and I shall vote in amendments, I shall draw my remarks to a close and favour of it in a referendum. I just wish that the referendum allow the debate to continue. was not being held next year, and that there was not such a rush. This is one case where the Minister has Chris Bryant: May I say first to the Minister that one perhaps got the better of the Deputy Prime Minister, in of the things that has crept into the contributions made that the Minister’s plans will almost certainly see the from that Dispatch Box of late is a differentiation of a Deputy Prime Minister’s desire to implement the alternative Minister as a Minister from a Minister when he or she is vote system fail. not acting in a ministerial capacity in some way? That is I want to say a couple of words about the a dangerous concept to begin to adumbrate, because “preferendum”—a term first coined, I think, in New Ministers have to act, to some degree, with collective Zealand—proposed in the amendment of the hon. Member responsibility. Once that starts to fall apart, government for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas). I confess that I starts to fall apart. am surprised that not a single Liberal Democrat—not even a Back Bencher—has put their name to the Mr Harper: I made it clear that the coalition agreement amendment. I recall that the Secretary of State for says that there will be, and the Government’s policy is Energy and Climate Change said on 2 February 2010: for there to be, a referendum on the voting system, offering a choice between first past the post and the “We will bring forward amendments next week to give people a real choice for a more significant change to fair votes and a alternative vote. The Government do not have a view on proportional election system.” the outcome, and that has been made clear. The coalition agreement explicitly says that the coalition parties will The Liberal Democrat election manifesto pledged to campaign on different sides, so I do not think that there change politics and abolish safe sex—safe seats— is any risk to collective responsibility. [Laughter.] That was a Freudian slip. It pledged to abolish safe seats Chris Bryant: I understand the Minister’s point, but I “by introducing a fair, more proportional voting system for just want to help him avoid becoming too much like the MPs.” Deputy Prime Minister, because we would not want It continued: him to morph into a Liberal Democrat—I am sure he “Our preferred Single Transferable Vote system gives people would not want that either. [Interruption.] The Deputy the choice between candidates as well as parties.” Prime Minister started with this concept of a personal idea on the situation in Iraq, so I just gently say that to Of course, the Deputy Prime Minister himself said: the Minister. “AV is a baby step in the right direction—only because nothing The one thing on which I wholeheartedly agree with can be worse than the status quo.” the Minister is what he said about Government He wanted a proportional system. I think it is a sadness amendments 230, 231 and 232 on changing the precise that the great, grand Liberal Democrat party is no wording of the question. I think that the Electoral longer—[Interruption.] Well, it is certainly large— Commission has done a good job. It has looked at this and given us a better question, and we wholeheartedly The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of support that. However, that is not the real point. The the House of Commons (Mr David Heath) rose— 291 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 292 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Chris Bryant—as the hon. Gentleman is about to system ought to depend on—clarity and certainty. They show. are present in first past the post, but they certainly are not in amendment 7. Mr Heath: Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that we did introduce such amendments, and that he and his Mr Carswell: I helped draft the design of the ballot colleagues voted against them? paper under this amendment. Can the hon. Lady explain which bits of it she thinks her constituents would be Chris Bryant: Then why is the hon. Gentleman not unable to understand? presenting those amendments tonight? That would be Mrs Laing: I did not say that my constituents would the honest, decent and sensible thing to do. Instead, he not be able to understand. My constituents are very is proposing a timorous beastie of a Bill—something intelligent, and I am sure that they would be able to that, in his honest heart, he knows he cannot possibly understand. I will not go into a long explanation at this defend to his voters on the basis of his party’s manifesto. point in the evening. I am merely saying, and I stick to Let me raise a few problems that I see with the it, that if amendment 7 were to become part of the Bill, proposal of the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion. the referendum would bring about a system—any of the First, there are complexities relating to how the amendment systems in amendment 7—that would lack clarity and would work with regard to the spending limits set both certainty. Any voting system ought to have clarity and in the Bill and in other legislation affecting referendums. certainty. That is not least because the legislation, as it stands, Clarity is what amendment 230 is all about. I am presumes that there will be a yes-no answer. In other pleased to say that the Political and Constitutional words, it presumes that there will be two sides to the Reform Committee, of which I am a member, looked at argument, rather than three, four or—as there might be the report of the Electoral Commission. The commission in this case—five. Secondly, the amendment makes the consulted extensively on the wording of the question, as assumption that one should arrive at the decision by use the Minister has told us this evening. The Select Committee of alternative vote; that is laid out in new clause 3. That supported the suggestions of the Electoral Commission. gives rise to a problem. Finally, there is the problem that The wording in amendment 230 is much clearer. It although the hon. Lady has presented some options, brings about clarity and certainty when a question is she has not presented all the options that might be put to the electorate, as it should be. Therefore, members available, as the starred amendment of my hon. Friend of the Select Committee tabled this amendment. We the Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) makes were delighted to discover that the Minister and the clear. Deputy Prime Minister also supported the amendment, I believe that it is not time for this timorous beastie of and I hope that the Committee will support it this a reform Bill, which was cobbled together not so much evening. to bring about proper reform in the country as to keep Austin Mitchell (Great Grimsby) (Lab): What the people in government. It has not been properly consulted hon. Lady thinks about the system is largely irrelevant. on, properly thought through, or given the proper time Amendment 7 is designed to allow the people to speak to allow it to be successful. [Interruption.] The out—to put before them the choice of a preferential Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of the system. I have to point out to my hon. Friend the House of Commons is sitting there on the Front Bench. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) that this was He is now using arguments that I used, in which I was exactly the wording of the New Zealand referendum. In not very confident, when I sat on the Government 1993 it was decided that people did not want the first- Benches. It is about time he stopped using the argument past-the-post system, and they were given a choice about hypocrisy and brass neck when he is the one, about what system they wanted to replace it. In that despite the fact that we cannot see the difference between referendum, almost 60% of people said that they wanted his shoulders and his head, with the largest brass neck the additional member system. Only 6.6% said that they of all in the Chamber. wanted the alternative vote. Let us not hear any more about new politics from the Chris Bryant: My hon. Friend is right, but New Government. This is a shoddy little Bill, not a braveheart Zealand is a unicameral system, and I have argued and root and branch reform—a Bill built on narrow party campaigned in the House for many years in favour of a advantage cobbled between the two Ministers. Nasty, second Chamber that is elected, not appointed, on a incongruous deals have been pushed through by tough proportional system. We should have a Bill about the whipping, as we have seen this afternoon—everything whole of constitutional reform, rather than picking off that the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath) bits and pieces one by one. used to condemn when he sat on the Opposition Benches. The only reason there were not any smoke-filled rooms Austin Mitchell: Why does not my hon. Friend see for Ministers to sit in to cobble together their deals is that it is daft to give the second Chamber a better that we voted for the legislation to ensure that people’s representative system than the first Chamber? It is health improved in this country. He did not. important that the first Chamber has a system that gives us representation according to the way people Mrs Laing: The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion vote. That is the essence of proportional representation; (Caroline Lucas) made a sincere speech in support of that is all we are trying to include in the referendum. her amendment 7, but it was wrong because she argued Mr MacNeil: Having just heard the words uttered by about giving more power to the people. Her amendment the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), it is a has nothing whatever to do with standards in the House fact that for the electors here, we effectively have a of Commons. It would cause confusion and lead to the unicameral system, because they do not vote for those loss of the two most important factors that any electoral who enter the Chamber down the corridor. 293 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 294 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Austin Mitchell: Exactly—that is the point. What we Mitchell) that the Liberal Democrat party still believes want to do in the amendment is quite simple. We want in STV, has done so for years, and will continue to do to give the people the choice that the Liberal Democrats so? However, the reality is that the advances that the Bill did not have the strength or the guts to give them. The represents will be jeopardised if we adopt the amendment Liberal Democrats are in favour of a system to allow on STV.The agreement before us was made on the basis people to vote in a referendum on the alternative vote, of a referendum on AV.Without that, we will not secure which is largely irrelevant—it is a system that allows a referendum, so there would be no referendum at all. people to list candidates in one constituency in order of That is the reality of the debate. We still believe in STV, preference—because they hope to benefit from the fact and this is a staging post to something towards which that they are everyone’s second preference, but the first our party will still work, but there is no majority in the preference of very few people. House for STV. Without that majority, there will be no referendum. Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD): As far as I recollect, in New Zealand there were Mr MacNeil: We have just heard the Liberal Democrats two votes in sequence: one on whether people wanted to say that they still believe in STV. I wonder whether that have a change, and a separate vote on which change to belief stretches 5 or 10 yards to the Lobby. I would have. The hon. Gentleman must also recognise what my wager that it does not go very far at all. right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) said: in the House, given the way in In the moments that are left, I want to speak to an which the Labour and Tory majorities have voted, there amendment that I tabled. is not likely to be a majority, whatever others think, for a wide proportional system. There is a majority for 11 pm progress, but not for what we might want. We should Debate interrupted (Programme Order, this day). not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. The Chair put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83D), That the Austin Mitchell: I know that there are a thousand amendment be made. excuses for gutlessness, but that is just another one. The Liberal Democrats are going to have to live on a diet of The Committee divided: Ayes 17, Noes 346. their own words for the next few months. It was the Division No. 68] [11.00 pm leader of their party who called the alternative vote “a miserable little compromise” before the election. Now it AYES is central to Liberal Democrat policy. Dakin, Nic Ritchie, Ms Margaret The hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark Durkan, Mark Robertson, Angus (Simon Hughes) is mistaken about the referendum in Evans, Jonathan Smith, rh Mr Andrew New Zealand. The first referendum, which I have discussed, Hollobone, Mr Philip Weir, Mr Mike gave the exact alternatives that would be given in our Hosie, Stewart Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Bill. I want to make the case for proportional representation. Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Williams, Hywel We are working in a system that has become a multi-party Long, Naomi Wishart, Pete one. Fewer people are voting for the two main parties, Lucas, Caroline Tellers for the Ayes: whose share of the vote has gone down from about MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Austin Mitchell and 90% to about 60%. A multi-party system is in the McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Mr Douglas Carswell process of being born, with nationalists, including Welsh nationalists, Liberal Democrats, the UK NOES Independence party, and all the rest of it. We are trying Adams, Nigel Blunt, Mr Crispin to fit that within the constraints of a first-past-the-post Afriyie, Adam Boles, Nick system that works well only with two parties. [Interruption.] Aldous, Peter Bone, Mr Peter I forgot to mention the Greens—I apologise, but that is Alexander, rh Danny Bottomley, Peter another indication of our multi-party system. Amess, Mr David Bradley, Karen We cannot fit the burgeoning multi-party system into Andrew, Stuart Brake, Tom a first-past-the-post system, which works only with two Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Bray, Angie parties. The question is still why did the Liberal Democrats, Bacon, Mr Richard Brazier, Mr Julian in pushing for a referendum—I congratulate them on Bagshawe, Ms Louise Brine, Mr Steve Baker, Norman Brokenshire, James securing one—not give people the real choice between a Baker, Steve Brooke, Annette preferential system, an alternative vote and first past Baldry, Tony Browne, Mr Jeremy the post, as that is the choice that they have to make? I Baldwin, Harriett Bruce, Fiona would want them to choose the preferential system, but Barclay, Stephen Bruce, rh Malcolm it is not up to us. It is not my views that are important, Barker, Gregory Buckland, Mr Robert or those of Government Members—it is the views of Barwell, Gavin Burley, Mr Aidan the people. That is all that we are asking: let us consult Bebb, Guto Burns, Conor the people on a system, and let them have their say. Beith, rh Sir Alan Burns, Mr Simon Every Member here thinks that the system that elected Bellingham, Mr Henry Burrowes, Mr David them must be the best system in the world, but that is Benyon, Richard Burstow, Paul not important. We are prejudiced witnesses, and we Beresford, Sir Paul Burt, Alistair should give the people the power to speak. That is all Berry, Jake Burt, Lorely that our amendment does. Bingham, Andrew Cable, rh Vince Birtwistle, Gordon Cairns, Alun Mr Mark Williams: May I reiterate to the Committee Blackman, Bob Campbell, Mr Gregory and to the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Blackwood, Nicola Campbell, rh Sir Menzies 295 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 296 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Carmichael, Mr Alistair Halfon, Robert Macleod, Mary Rudd, Amber Carmichael, Neil Hames, Duncan Main, Mrs Anne Ruffley, Mr David Chishti, Rehman Hammond, rh Mr Philip Maude, rh Mr Francis Russell, Bob Clappison, Mr James Hammond, Stephen May, rh Mrs Theresa Rutley, David Clark, rh Greg Hancock, Matthew Maynard, Paul Sanders, Mr Adrian Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hancock, Mr Mike McCartney, Jason Sandys, Laura Clegg, rh Mr Nick Hands, Greg McCartney, Karl Scott, Mr Lee Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Harper, Mr Mark McCrea, Dr William Selous, Andrew Coffey, Dr Thérèse Harrington, Richard McIntosh, Miss Anne Shannon, Jim Collins, Damian Harris, Rebecca McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Shapps, rh Grant Colvile, Oliver Hart, Simon McPartland, Stephen Sharma, Alok Cox, Mr Geoffrey Harvey, Nick McVey, Esther Shelbrooke, Alec Crabb, Stephen Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Menzies, Mark Simmonds, Mark Crockart, Mike Hayes, Mr John Mercer, Patrick Simpson, David Crouch, Tracey Heald, Mr Oliver Metcalfe, Stephen Simpson, Mr Keith Davey, Mr Edward Heath, Mr David Miller, Maria Skidmore, Chris Davies, David T. C. Heaton-Harris, Chris Mills, Nigel Skinner, Mr Dennis (Monmouth) Hemming, John Milton, Anne Smith, Miss Chloe Davies, Glyn Henderson, Gordon Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Smith, Henry Davies, Philip Hendry, Charles Moore, rh Michael Smith, Julian de Bois, Nick Herbert, rh Nick Mordaunt, Penny Smith, Sir Robert Dinenage, Caroline Hinds, Damian Morgan, Nicky Soames, Nicholas Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hoban, Mr Mark Morris, Anne Marie Soubry, Anna Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Hollingbery, George Morris, David Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Holloway, Mr Adam Morris, James Spencer, Mr Mark Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hopkins, Kelvin Mosley, Stephen Stephenson, Andrew Dorries, Nadine Hopkins, Kris Mowat, David Stevenson, John Doyle-Price, Jackie Horwood, Martin Mulholland, Greg Stewart, Bob Drax, Richard Howarth, Mr Gerald Mundell, rh David Stewart, Iain Duncan, rh Mr Alan Howell, John Murray, Sheryll Stewart, Rory Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Hughes, Simon Murrison, Dr Andrew Streeter, Mr Gary Dunne, Mr Philip Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Neill, Robert Stride, Mel Ellis, Michael Huppert, Dr Julian Newmark, Mr Brooks Stuart, Mr Graham Ellison, Jane Hurd, Mr Nick Newton, Sarah Stunell, Andrew Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jackson, Mr Stewart Nokes, Caroline Sturdy, Julian Elphicke, Charlie James, Margot Norman, Jesse Swales, Ian Eustice, George Javid, Sajid Nuttall, Mr David Swayne, Mr Desmond Evans, Graham Jenkin, Mr Bernard O’Brien, Mr Stephen Swinson, Jo Evennett, Mr David Johnson, Gareth Offord, Mr Matthew Swire, Mr Hugo Fabricant, Michael Johnson, Joseph Ollerenshaw, Eric Syms, Mr Robert Fallon, Michael Jones, Andrew Opperman, Guy Teather, Sarah Farron, Tim Jones, Mr David Osborne, rh Mr George Thurso, John Featherstone, Lynne Jones, Mr Marcus Ottaway, Richard Timpson, Mr Edward Field, Mr Mark Kawczynski, Daniel Paice, Mr James Tomlinson, Justin Foster, Mr Don Kelly, Chris Parish, Neil Tredinnick, David Fox,rhDrLiam Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Patel, Priti Truss, Elizabeth Francois, rh Mr Mark Kirby, Simon Paterson, rh Mr Owen Turner, Mr Andrew Freeman, George Knight, rh Mr Greg Pawsey, Mark Tyrie, Mr Andrew Freer, Mike Kwarteng, Kwasi Penning, Mike Uppal, Paul Fullbrook, Lorraine Laing, Mrs Eleanor Penrose, John Vaizey, Mr Edward Fuller, Richard Lamb, Norman Percy, Andrew Vara, Mr Shailesh Garnier, Mr Edward Lancaster, Mark Perry, Claire Vickers, Martin Garnier, Mark Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Phillips, Stephen Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Gauke, Mr David Latham, Pauline Pickles, rh Mr Eric Walker, Mr Charles George, Andrew Laws, rh Mr David Pincher, Christopher Walker, Mr Robin Gibb, Mr Nick Leadsom, Andrea Poulter, Dr Daniel Wallace, Mr Ben Gilbert, Stephen Lee, Jessica Prisk, Mr Mark Walter, Mr Robert Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lee, Dr Phillip Pritchard, Mark Ward, Mr David Glen, John Leech, Mr John Pugh, Dr John Watkinson, Angela Goldsmith, Zac Lefroy, Jeremy Raab, Mr Dominic Weatherley, Mike Goodwill, Mr Robert Leslie, Charlotte Randall, rh Mr John Webb, Steve Gove, rh Michael Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Reckless, Mark Wharton, James Graham, Richard Lewis, Brandon Redwood, rh Mr John White, Chris Grant, Mrs Helen Lewis, Dr Julian Rees-Mogg, Jacob Whittaker, Craig Gray, Mr James Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Reevell, Simon Whittingdale, Mr John Grayling, rh Chris Lidington, Mr David Reid, Mr Alan Wiggin, Bill Green, Damian Lilley, rh Mr Peter Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Willetts, rh Mr David Greening, Justine Lloyd, Stephen Robathan, Mr Andrew Williams, Mr Mark Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Lord, Jonathan Robertson, Hugh Williams, Roger Griffiths, Andrew Loughton, Tim Robertson, Mr Laurence Williams, Stephen Gummer, Ben Luff, Peter Rogerson, Dan Williamson, Gavin Gyimah, Mr Sam Lumley, Karen Rosindell, Andrew Willott, Jenny 297 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 298 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Wilson, Mr Rob Young, rh Sir George Ellison, Jane Jackson, Mr Stewart Wollaston, Dr Sarah Zahawi, Nadhim Ellwood, Mr Tobias James, Margot Wright, Jeremy Tellers for the Noes: Elphicke, Charlie Javid, Sajid Wright, Simon Mark Hunter and Eustice, George Jenkin, Mr Bernard Yeo, Mr Tim James Duddridge Evans, Graham Johnson, Gareth Evans, Jonathan Johnson, Joseph Evennett, Mr David Jones, Andrew Question accordingly negatived. Fabricant, Michael Jones, Mr David The Chair then put forthwith the Questions necessary Fallon, Michael Jones, Mr Marcus for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that Farron, Tim Kawczynski, Daniel time (Standing Order No. 83D). Featherstone, Lynne Kelly, Chris Field, Mr Mark Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Amendments made: 230, page 1, leave out lines 8 to Foster, Mr Don Kirby, Simon 11 and insert— Fox,rhDrLiam Knight, rh Mr Greg ‘At present, the UK uses the “first past the post” Francois, rh Mr Mark Kwarteng, Kwasi system to elect MPs to the House of Commons. Should Freeman, George Laing, Mrs Eleanor Freer, Mike Lamb, Norman the “alternative vote” system be used instead?’. Fullbrook, Lorraine Lancaster, Mark Amendment 231, page 2, leave out lines 1 to 4 and Fuller, Richard Lansley, rh Mr Andrew insert— Garnier, Mr Edward Latham, Pauline ‘Ar hyn o bryd, mae’r DU yn defnyddio’r system “y Garnier, Mark Leadsom, Andrea Gauke, Mr David Lee, Jessica cyntaf i’r felin” i ethol ASau i Dy’r Cyffredin. A ddylid George, Andrew Lee, Dr Phillip defnyddio’r system “pleidlais amgen” yn lle hynny?’.—(Mr Harper.) Gibb, Mr Nick Leech, Mr John Question put, That the clause, as amended, stand Gilbert, Stephen Lefroy, Jeremy part of the Bill. Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Leslie, Charlotte Glen, John Letwin, rh Mr Oliver The Committee divided: Ayes 337, Noes 240. Goldsmith, Zac Lewis, Brandon Division No. 69] [11.15 pm Goodwill, Mr Robert Lewis, Dr Julian Gove, rh Michael Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian AYES Graham, Richard Lidington, Mr David Grant, Mrs Helen Lilley, rh Mr Peter Adams, Nigel Burns, Conor Gray, Mr James Lloyd, Stephen Aldous, Peter Burns, Mr Simon Grayling, rh Chris Long, Naomi Alexander, rh Danny Burrowes, Mr David Green, Damian Lord, Jonathan Amess, Mr David Burstow, Paul Greening, Justine Loughton, Tim Andrew, Stuart Burt, Alistair Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Luff, Peter Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Burt, Lorely Griffiths, Andrew Lumley, Karen Bacon, Mr Richard Cable, rh Vince Gummer, Ben Macleod, Mary Bagshawe, Ms Louise Cairns, Alun Gyimah, Mr Sam Main, Mrs Anne Baker, Norman Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Halfon, Robert Maude, rh Mr Francis Baker, Steve Carmichael, Mr Alistair Hames, Duncan May, rh Mrs Theresa Baldry, Tony Carmichael, Neil Hammond, rh Mr Philip Maynard, Paul Baldwin, Harriett Carswell, Mr Douglas Hammond, Stephen McCartney, Jason Barclay, Stephen Chishti, Rehman Hancock, Matthew McCartney, Karl Barker, Gregory Clappison, Mr James Hands, Greg McIntosh, Miss Anne Barwell, Gavin Clark, rh Greg Harper, Mr Mark McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Bebb, Guto Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Harrington, Richard McPartland, Stephen Beith, rh Sir Alan Clegg, rh Mr Nick Harris, Rebecca McVey, Esther Bellingham, Mr Henry Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hart, Simon Menzies, Mark Benyon, Richard Coffey, Dr Thérèse Harvey, Nick Mercer, Patrick Beresford, Sir Paul Collins, Damian Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Metcalfe, Stephen Berry, Jake Colvile, Oliver Hayes, Mr John Miller, Maria Bingham, Andrew Cox, Mr Geoffrey Heald, Mr Oliver Mills, Nigel Birtwistle, Gordon Crockart, Mike Heath, Mr David Milton, Anne Blackman, Bob Crouch, Tracey Heaton-Harris, Chris Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Blackwood, Nicola Davey, Mr Edward Hemming, John Moore, rh Michael Blunt, Mr Crispin Davies, David T. C. Henderson, Gordon Mordaunt, Penny Boles, Nick (Monmouth) Hendry, Charles Morgan, Nicky Bone, Mr Peter Davies, Glyn Herbert, rh Nick Morris, Anne Marie Bottomley, Peter Davies, Philip Hinds, Damian Morris, David Bradley, Karen de Bois, Nick Hoban, Mr Mark Morris, James Brake, Tom Dinenage, Caroline Bray, Angie Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hollingbery, George Mosley, Stephen Brazier, Mr Julian Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Holloway, Mr Adam Mowat, David Brine, Mr Steve Dorries, Nadine Hopkins, Kris Mulholland, Greg Brokenshire, James Doyle-Price, Jackie Horwood, Martin Mundell, rh David Brooke, Annette Drax, Richard Howarth, Mr Gerald Murray, Sheryll Browne, Mr Jeremy Duddridge, James Howell, John Murrison, Dr Andrew Bruce, Fiona Duncan, rh Mr Alan Hughes, Simon Neill, Robert Bruce, rh Malcolm Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Newmark, Mr Brooks Buckland, Mr Robert Dunne, Mr Philip Huppert, Dr Julian Newton, Sarah Burley, Mr Aidan Ellis, Michael Hurd, Mr Nick Nokes, Caroline 299 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 300 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Norman, Jesse Spencer, Mr Mark Blomfield, Paul Griffith, Nia Nuttall, Mr David Stephenson, Andrew Brennan, Kevin Gwynne, Andrew O’Brien, Mr Stephen Stevenson, John Brown, Lyn Hain, rh Mr Peter Offord, Mr Matthew Stewart, Bob Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hamilton, Mr David Ollerenshaw, Eric Stewart, Iain Brown, Mr Russell Hamilton, Mr Fabian Opperman, Guy Stewart, Rory Bryant, Chris Hanson, rh Mr David Osborne, rh Mr George Stride, Mel Buck, Ms Karen Harman, rh Ms Harriet Ottaway, Richard Stuart, Mr Graham Burnham, rh Andy Havard, Mr Dai Paice, Mr James Stunell, Andrew Byrne, rh Mr Liam Healey, rh John Parish, Neil Sturdy, Julian Campbell, Mr Alan Hepburn, Mr Stephen Patel, Priti Swales, Ian Campbell, Mr Gregory Heyes, David Paterson, rh Mr Owen Swayne, Mr Desmond Caton, Martin Hillier, Meg Pawsey, Mark Swinson, Jo Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hilling, Julie Penning, Mike Swire, Mr Hugo Clark, Katy Hodge, rh Margaret Penrose, John Syms, Mr Robert Clwyd, rh Ann Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Percy, Andrew Teather, Sarah Coaker, Vernon Hollobone, Mr Philip Perry, Claire Thurso, John Coffey, Ann Hopkins, Kelvin Phillips, Stephen Timpson, Mr Edward Connarty, Michael Hosie, Stewart Pickles, rh Mr Eric Tomlinson, Justin Cooper, Rosie Howarth, rh Mr George Pincher, Christopher Tredinnick, David Cooper, rh Yvette Hunt, Tristram Poulter, Dr Daniel Truss, Elizabeth Crausby, Mr David Illsley, Mr Eric Prisk, Mr Mark Turner, Mr Andrew Creagh, Mary James, Mrs Siân C. Pritchard, Mark Tyrie, Mr Andrew Creasy, Stella Jamieson, Cathy Pugh, Dr John Uppal, Paul Cruddas, Jon Johnson, rh Alan Raab, Mr Dominic Vaizey, Mr Edward Cryer, John Johnson, Diana R. Randall, rh Mr John Vara, Mr Shailesh Cunningham, Alex Jones, Graham Reckless, Mark Vickers, Martin Cunningham, Mr Jim Jones, Helen Redwood, rh Mr John Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Cunningham, Tony Jones, Mr Kevan Rees-Mogg, Jacob Walker, Mr Charles Curran, Margaret Jones, Susan Elan Reevell, Simon Walker, Mr Robin Dakin, Nic Jowell, rh Tessa Reid, Mr Alan Wallace, Mr Ben Danczuk, Simon Joyce, Eric Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Walter, Mr Robert Darling, rh Mr Alistair Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Robathan, Mr Andrew Ward, Mr David David, Mr Wayne Keeley, Barbara Robertson, Hugh Watkinson, Angela Davidson, Mr Ian Keen, Alan Robertson, Mr Laurence Weatherley, Mike Davies, Geraint Khan, rh Sadiq Rogerson, Dan Webb, Steve De Piero, Gloria Lammy, rh Mr David Rosindell, Andrew Wharton, James Denham, rh Mr John Lavery, Ian Rudd, Amber White, Chris Dobson, rh Frank Lazarowicz, Mark Ruffley, Mr David Whittaker, Craig Docherty, Thomas Leslie, Chris Russell, Bob Whittingdale, Mr John Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Lewis, Mr Ivan Rutley, David Wiggin, Bill Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Lloyd, Tony Sanders, Mr Adrian Willetts, rh Mr David Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Love, Mr Andrew Sandys, Laura Williams, Mr Mark Doran, Mr Frank Lucas, Caroline Scott, Mr Lee Williams, Roger Dowd, Jim Lucas, Ian Selous, Andrew Williams, Stephen Doyle, Gemma MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Shapps, rh Grant Williamson, Gavin Dromey, Jack MacShane, rh Mr Denis Sharma, Alok Willott, Jenny Dugher, Michael Mactaggart, Fiona Shelbrooke, Alec Wilson, Mr Rob Durkan, Mark Mahmood, Shabana Simmonds, Mark Wollaston, Dr Sarah Eagle, Ms Angela Mann, John Simpson, Mr Keith Wright, Jeremy Eagle, Maria Marsden, Mr Gordon Skidmore, Chris Wright, Simon Efford, Clive McCann, Mr Michael Elliott, Julie McCarthy, Kerry Smith, Miss Chloe Yeo, Mr Tim Smith, Henry Ellman, Mrs Louise McClymont, Gregg Young, rh Sir George Smith, Julian Engel, Natascha McCrea, Dr William Zahawi, Nadhim Smith, Sir Robert Esterson, Bill McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Soames, Nicholas Tellers for the Ayes: Evans, Chris McFadden, rh Mr Pat Soubry, Anna Stephen Crabb and Farrelly, Paul McGovern, Alison Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Mark Hunter Field, rh Mr Frank McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Flello, Robert McKechin, Ann NOES Flint, rh Caroline McKinnell, Catherine Flynn, Paul Meacher, rh Mr Michael Abbott, Ms Diane Barron, rh Mr Kevin Fovargue, Yvonne Mearns, Ian Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Bayley, Hugh Francis, Dr Hywel Michael, rh Alun Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Beckett, rh Margaret Gapes, Mike Miliband, rh David Alexander, Heidi Begg, Miss Anne Gardiner, Barry Miller, Andrew Ali, Rushanara Bell, Sir Stuart Gilmore, Sheila Mitchell, Austin Anderson, Mr David Benn, rh Hilary Glindon, Mrs Mary Moon, Mrs Madeleine Austin, Ian Benton, Mr Joe Godsiff, Mr Roger Morden, Jessica Bailey, Mr Adrian Berger, Luciana Goggins, rh Paul Morrice, Graeme Bain, Mr William Betts, Mr Clive Goodman, Helen Morris, Grahame M. Balls, rh Ed Blackman-Woods, Roberta Greatrex, Tom Munn, Meg Banks, Gordon Blenkinsop, Tom Green, Kate Murphy, rh Mr Jim 301 Parliamentary Voting System and 12 OCTOBER 2010 302 Constituencies Bill Murphy, rh Paul Smith, Owen PETITION Murray, Ian Soulsby, Sir Peter Nandy, Lisa Spellar, rh Mr John Archway Centre (Walsall) Nash, Pamela Straw, rh Mr Jack O’Donnell, Fiona Stringer, Graham Onwurah, Chi Stuart, Ms Gisela 11.29 pm Osborne, Sandra Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): The petition is Owen, Albert Tami, Mark from the friends and users of the Archway centre, Pearce, Teresa Thomas, Mr Gareth Perkins, Toby Walsall. The petitioners object to the cutting of funds Thornberry, Emily and resources to the Archway centre, which has already Phillipson, Bridget Timms, rh Stephen Qureshi, Yasmin led to the closure of some services. The petitioners Trickett, Jon believe that the intention is to reduce the number of Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Turner, Karl Reeves, Rachel sessions and to send service users out into the Twigg, Derek Reynolds, Emma community. The community is not qualified and does Twigg, Stephen Reynolds, Jonathan not have the facilities to deal with people who have Umunna, Mr Chuka Riordan, Mrs Linda mental problems. The petitioners have noted that the Vaz, rh Keith Ritchie, Ms Margaret cuts to the funding of the Archway centre may lead to Vaz, Valerie Robertson, Angus more people relying on the services of the mental Robertson, John Watson, Mr Tom Watts, Mr Dave health team in Walsall and an increase in admissions to Robinson, Mr Geoffrey the Dorothy Pattison hospital. The petitioners Rotheram, Steve Weir, Mr Mike Whiteford, Dr Eilidh therefore request that the House of Commons urges Roy, Mr Frank the Government to take all possible steps to ensure that Roy, Lindsay Whitehead, Dr Alan Ruane, Chris Williamson, Chris the Archway centre, Walsall receives adequate funding. Ruddock, rh Joan Wilson, Phil There are 74 signatories to the petition in similar terms. Sarwar, Anas Wilson, Sammy Following is the full text of the petition: Seabeck, Alison Winnick, Mr David [The petition of friends and users of the Archway Shannon, Jim Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Centre, Walsall, Sharma, Mr Virendra Wishart, Pete Sheerman, Mr Barry Wood, Mike Declares that the Petitioners object to the cutting by Sheridan, Jim Woodcock, John Re-think of funds and resources at the Archway Centre, Shuker, Gavin Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Walsall, which has already led to the closure of food Simpson, David Woolas, Mr Phil services at the centre - a vital service for many users who Skinner, Mr Dennis Wright, David find it difficult to cook for themselves; notes that the Slaughter, Mr Andy Wright, Mr Iain Petitioners believe that the intention is to reduce the Smith, rh Mr Andrew number of drop in sessions and to send service users out Smith, Angela (Penistone and Tellers for the Noes: into the community, but the community is not qualified Stocksbridge) Stephen Pound and and does not have the facilities to deal with people who Smith, Nick Lilian Greenwood have mental health problems; and further notes that cuts to the funding of the Archway Centre may lead to more Question accordingly agreed to. people relying on the services of the mental health team Clause 1, as amended, ordered to stand part of the in Walsall and an increase in admissions to Dorothy Bill. Pattison Hospital. The occupant of the Chair left the Chair to report The Petitioners therefore request that the House of progress and ask leave to sit again (Programme Order, Commons urges the Government to take all possible steps this day). to ensure that the Archway Centre, Walsall, receives The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair. adequate funding. Progress reported; Committee to sit again tomorrow. And the Petitioners remain, etc.] [P000864] Business without Debate

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE Ordered, That, at the sitting on Wednesday 13 October, notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order No. 16 (Proceedings under an Act or on European Union documents) the Speaker shall put the Questions necessary to dispose of proceedings on the Motion in the name of Justine Greening relating to the Draft EU Budget 2011 not later than three hours after their commencement; such Questions shall include the Questions on any Amendments selected by the Speaker which may then be moved; proceedings may begin or continue after the moment of interruption; and Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply.—(Stephen Crabb.) 303 12 OCTOBER 2010 Yousaf Family 304

Yousaf Family but before Tania could explain to her husband what was happening, she was killed with him still listening on the Motion made, and Question proposed, That this line. House do now adjourn.—(James Duddridge.) To illustrate further the sheer brutality of these murders, I can today for the first time, and with the permission of the Yousaf family, reveal that at Tania’s post-mortem, 11.31 pm more than 100 bullets were removed from her body. Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): I secured this Owing to the almost indiscriminate use of automatic debate to bring to the attention of the House the weapons in the incident, one of the gunmen, Khursheed murder of three of my constituents—Mohammed Yousaf, Arif, was killed, along with an innocent street vendor. Pervez Yousaf and Tania Yousaf—who were killed in An aunt of the gunmen was also injured, leaving a total Pakistan on 20 May 2010. I will start by setting out the of six people dead and one injured, three of the dead facts of the case, explain what the family have done in being the Yousaf family, who were British nationals and their quest for justice and then touch on some of the constituents of mine. wider issues and where I hope that the Government can The whole incident was witnessed by Mohammed assist. Anwar and Ghulam Abbas, the driver, and they saw at first hand how the brutal incident unfolded. At 3 pm, a Mohammad Yousaf, aged 51, his wife Pervez, aged 49, first information report was registered with the police and their 22-year-old daughter, Tania, were all British by one of the eye witnesses, Mohammed Anwar, naming citizens living in Nelson in my constituency. Mohammad the murderers as Khursheed Arif, Sheraz Arif, Naveed Yousaf had lived in the UK for more than 40 years, Arif and Qamar Abbas, along with other unidentified working for many years as a furniture manufacturer people. The police attended the scene, and while they making beds, and for a period running a small business were present Qamar Abbas reappeared, and was recognised before retiring. He also helped his wife Pervez raise their and duly arrested. Therefore, out of the four people six children—three sons and three daughters. One of named in the initial police report, one was dead, one those daughters was Tania. Born in Nelson on 13 was under arrest and two—Naveed and Sheraz Arif—were September 1987, she attended Lomeshaye primary school on the run. and Walshaw high school, where she is fondly remembered. At this point I would like to try and shed some light After leaving school, Tania married and had two on the motive for these senseless murders. If what I have young boys of her own—three-year-old Arien and nine- described so far is not shocking enough in itself, these month-old Harris. She worked for Pendle borough council cold-blooded murders were not perpetrated by a lawless and then as a clerical assistant at business solutions gang; rather, the culprits were actually known and firm Liberata in Nelson. Back in May, her manager, related to the Yousaf family. The accused—Khursheed Wendy Smith, was reported in The Times newspaper Arif, Sheraz Arif and Naveed Arif—are all brothers. describing Tania as Their sister, Nabeela Mahmood, was married to Kamar “a hard-working and conscientious member of the team who was Yousaf, the eldest son of Mohammed and Pervez Yousaf, always happy and one of the nicest people we have ever met. She in 1999. Over a period of time, Nabeela and Kamar had had a lovely sense of humour and was always a team player.” marital problems, which eventually led to Nabeela moving out of the marital home around 12 months before the The Yousaf family decided in April 2010 to make a incident took place. I understand that the two families trip to Pakistan to arrange the wedding of their 24-year-old were keen to help to save the marriage, and there was son, Asad Yousaf. They flew to Pakistan in two groups frequent dialogue, with no indications that this would on 22 and 27 April. Asad’s wedding took place on or could lead to violence. However, on 20 May the Arif 5 May, and all family members returned back to the family brothers turned up at the graveyard with only UK on 19 May, apart from Mohammed, his wife Pervez, one intention in mind—murder. their daughter Tania and her children. On 20 May, at Yousaf family members have told me—I believe them— approximately 12.35 pm, Mohammed, Pervez, Tania that if there had been any indication that those marital and Mohammed Anwar—another UK citizen—entered difficulties could have led to violence, their parents the village of Mararian Sharif, near Gujrat, Punjab. would not have travelled at all, or would at least have They were in this area to visit a family member—Nusrat travelled with security, as is frequently the case in Pakistan. Bibi—and also to pay respects at the grave of a deceased On 21 May—the day after the killings—the other members family member, Mohammed Zaman. of the Yousaf family returned to Pakistan to organise The family entered the village in two cars, one being and attend the funeral services for the three deceased. driven by Ghulam Abbas, the family’s driver, and the From the time that they arrived back in Pakistan until other by Mohammed Anwar. After spending some time the time that they got home to the UK, their lives were at the residence of Nusrat Bibi, they had lunch before threatened repeatedly by members of the Arif family. proceeding to the graveyard. At approximately 2.20 pm, On the same day, following pressure from the Yousaf Mohammed, Pervez and Tania, along with Mohammed family and the media, the police made moves towards Anwar and Nusrat Bibi, entered the graveyard to pay arresting the two accused men, Naveed and Sheraz Arif. their respects, along with their driver, Ghulam Abbas. It Unbelievably, however, given the gravity of what is was then, while in the graveyard, praying and paying alleged, they were granted bail until 26 May. The Yousaf their respects, that they were ambushed by a group of family continually protested to the police and the relevant armed men. The gunmen shot Mr and Mrs Yousaf and authorities that bail should not have been granted in Nusrat Bibi with Kalashnikov rifles, before dragging such circumstances, as they believed that the accused the daughter, Tania, from the family’s car. After dragging would abscond. On 26 May, the accused failed to appear Tania from the car, the gunmen made her call her at the police station, and they remain on the run now, husband for help on her mobile phone. The call connected, five months after the murders took place. 305 Yousaf Family12 OCTOBER 2010 Yousaf Family 306

[Andrew Stephenson] of Sahil Saeed, the five-year-old boy from Oldham who was abducted for ransom while his family were on From the day of the murders until now, I have done holiday. whatever I can to assist the family in their quest for justice. In fact, I referred to the case in my maiden speech, when I committed myself to doing whatever I Richard Harrington (Watford) (Con): I thank my could to ensure that the family obtained justice through hon. Friend the Member for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson) the Pakistani courts. The family have tried several different for bringing this matter to the House’s attention. I, too, means to secure justice through the Pakistani judicial have been involved in cases relating to justice in Pakistan, system. They have kept in constant contact with the and I want briefly to mention my constituent, Mrs police and relevant authorities in Pakistan. They have Saeeda Dar, whose father has been held without proper met Pakistani politicians and Ministers visiting the UK trial for more than 20 months. He is 79 years old and a to highlight the case to them. The “Justice for the diabetic, and he is being held in very basic conditions. Yousaf Family” Facebook group has more than He is a retired headmaster, and his alleged crime was to 2,500 members. The case has also been widely reported write a foreword to a pamphlet. I have read a translation in both the British and Asian press, helping to raise of that foreword, and it is very moderate and proper. awareness. Many people in Pakistan agree with his very moderate views. Many Members on both sides of the House are I was also very grateful that the Minister took the very supportive of Pakistan, and I am pleased to include time to meet the family and me at the Foreign Office in myself in that group as a member of the all-party July to discuss the details of this case and what, if parliamentary group on Pakistan. However, we feel anything, the British Government could do to assist. very strongly about these cases in which justice is not The family accept that the Foreign and Commonwealth being done. I thank my hon. Friend for giving me this Office’s powers are limited, but I would be grateful if opportunity to bring that case to light. the Minister were to refer to that meeting and tell me what, if anything, he or his Department has been able Andrew Stephenson: My hon. Friend brings me to my to do since. next point. More than 1 million people living in the UK Members will have noticed the significant number of can trace their roots back to Pakistan, and many of people in the Public Gallery listening to this Adjournment them live in the constituencies of the hon. Members to debate tonight, which speaks volumes for the desire of whom I am grateful for having stayed to listen to the the family and their supporters to get justice through debate tonight. the Pakistani legal system. Sadly, however, the killers Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): I congratulate remain at large and the family still do not have justice. my hon. Friend on securing this Adjournment debate. I Despite numerous expressions of support and warm want to express my support for the dozens of Yousaf words, there has been little progress on the ground in family members and supporters who have come to the Pakistan. The police seem to have put numerous people House and stayed so late to watch the debate. That in charge of the case since the murders, but the investigation really is a testament to the importance of this issue, and appears to be going nowhere. Each new person who is I hope that they get some satisfaction and justice very appointed never seems to be given the time to look into soon. I represent a constituency with a rather large the case before he is transferred. Pakistani community—and with many Kashmiris as The Yousaf family, who still do not feel it safe to well—and I understand the importance of the close travel to Pakistan, have now employed a barrister in links with Pakistan, particularly at a time when the that country, at considerable cost to themselves, to have British Pakistani community is doing so much for flood the relevant cases against the accused and their family relief in that country. Does my hon. Friend agree that members registered and heard. However, given the troubled this would be a good time to get justice in this case? past of the Pakistani legal process—and corruption, which remains an issue—the family seem to have hit a Andrew Stephenson: My hon. Friend makes an excellent brick wall, preventing any further action or focus on the point. The crux of the matter is that many British case from the authorities. Pakistanis hope to keep strong ties with Pakistan and visit the country for weddings, funerals and holidays. The family appreciate that neither this House nor the Many more who have founded successful businesses Minister has any powers to intervene in the Pakistani here in the UK look to Pakistan as an economy to judicial system. However, after five months, they have invest in. It is worth noting that this Saturday our grave concerns about how seriously the Pakistani authorities Foreign Secretary will join the Pakistani Foreign Secretary are dealing with the case. The family and I hope that by here in London to launch the British Pakistani Foundation, setting out the case today, we will raise awareness of this which seeks to encourage and support philanthropy incident not only here in the UK, but in Pakistan, and among the British Pakistani diaspora. that, in doing so, we will bring pressure to bear on those British Pakistanis will simply not visit or invest their who are in a position to help the family to achieve money in Pakistan if the law and order situation continues justice. to deteriorate and the judicial process seems incapable I do not wish to diminish the importance of this of delivering justice. Such an outcome is certainly not in horrific incident, but it is clear that the implications of the interests of Pakistan. For British Pakistanis to have whether the Yousaf family get justice or not go well confidence in the future of that country, cases such as beyond this individual case. In August this year, two that of the Yousaf family must be dealt with in a swift other UK citizens, Gul Wazir and his wife Bagum from and fair manner. I therefore urge the Minister to continue the Alum Rock area of Birmingham, were also murdered to do whatever he can to help get justice for the Yousaf in Pakistan, and hon. Members will remember the case family. 307 Yousaf Family12 OCTOBER 2010 Yousaf Family 308

11.46 pm continually contacted underlines our continuing interest in the ongoing investigation and makes the Pakistani The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign police aware of the continuing interest of the UK and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt): I begin by Government in the circumstances. thanking my hon. Friend the Member for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson) for securing this debate. Although he arrived What can be done further to help? As my hon. Friend in Westminster only relatively recently, we all know that knows, in the days following the murders, consular staff he has a long history of working on behalf of the local both in London and Islamabad were in direct contact communities that now form his constituency.His persistence with the Yousaf family. They explained how the FCO in following this harrowing case is a further example of can assist the family in terms of support and advice, but how he puts their welfare at the forefront of everything also our limitations with regard to the police investigation. he does. I also thank him for offering me the courtesy of Since then, the local police have been in regular contact a copy of his remarks before the debate, so that I could with the family through a family liaison officer and our more properly answer the questions he put on behalf of consular staff have passed messages to the family through his constituents. I would also like to thank the Minister that route. of State, Department for International Development, As my hon. Friend mentioned, the Pakistani police my right hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and have identified two suspects in the case, both of whom Melton (Mr Duncan), who has a keen interest in Pakistan, have absconded. Two other suspects have been bailed, for his courtesy in attending the debate. That shows the and the case against them is now proceeding through Government’s interest in and concern for these issues. the Pakistani justice system. At this stage, when there is I shall not deal in detail with the two interventions of an ongoing police investigation overseas, the main priority my hon. Friends the Members for Watford (Richard for us is to ensure that the family receive the information Harrington) and for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney), that they want and need as quickly as possible. Trying but I am happy to receive any further written representations to gain access and to understand a foreign and unfamiliar on the points that they raised, which highlight the width system can be extremely distressing, but we can help to of the issue and the depth of concern about the matters some degree. We can suggest the best ways for the that my hon. Friend the Member for Pendle has raised. family to raise any concerns with the local authorities. We can offer information about the local police system My hon. Friend has described a horrific crime. and the legal system. We can point the family in the Mohammad, Pervez and Tania—a father, mother and direction of any legal aid that is available. Here in daughter—gunned down, far from home and on an London, as soon as our consular staff obtain any new occasion that should have been a cause for joy and information from the Pakistani authorities, we will celebration. It is hard to imagine the anguish that the immediately pass it on to the family. Yousaf family has been through and it is impossible to overstate how much they want to see those responsible In any case of this kind, whether at home or abroad, brought to justice. Any one of us would feel the same. the uncertainty and delay as an investigation proceeds The description of the scale of the brutality that we are a source of huge frustration for the family of the have heard about tonight leaves one wondering how victims. They want to see the killers of their loved ones anyone who calls himself a man could machine-gun a caught and punished as quickly as possible. Again, woman to death in such circumstances. There is no none of us would feel any different. I know that the cultural or traditional justification for killings of this Yousaf family are deeply worried about the progress of sort. First and foremost, then, I offer my heartfelt the investigation into the murders, and want us to do all condolences and those of the Government to the Yousaf that we can to maintain pressure on the Pakistani family. authorities to deal with the case swiftly and decisively. As my hon. Friend knows, our ability to act in When this Government came into office, we set out individual cases is limited. I appreciate that he is asking—as three priorities for the Foreign and Commonwealth are the family—what, if any, pressure we can put on the Office. Safeguarding national security and building Pakistani authorities. The British Government cannot prosperity were two. The third is no less important—support interfere in the judicial systems of other sovereign countries, for British nationals around the world. People expect us just as we would not allow any interference in our own. to be there and to help when they are at their most Nor do the British police have jurisdiction. The investigation vulnerable. As the Minister responsible for south Asia, I is the responsibility of the Pakistani police and judicial am determined that we will fulfil that duty. authorities. They will have their own methods of The Yousaf family have been persistent in their pursuit investigation, and their own local experience of similar of justice. They have, I know, seen the Punjab Minister cases. Difficult though it is for our consular staff, for all for Law when he visited the UK, and they have spoken of us, and even more for the family, we cannot insist to the Pakistani high commissioner in London. The that the Pakistani police investigate this shocking crime family came to see me, as my hon. Friend said, in July to in the same way as it might be investigated in the UK. discuss the case. These are all important efforts and I We have no power to do so. Nor can we insist that the commend them. British police carry out a joint investigation with the During the course of his remarks, my hon. Friend local police. rightly asked what we have done as a result of that In many countries, it is a fact that the judicial process meeting. Our consular staff in Islamabad have remained takes much longer than in the United Kingdom. When in touch with the Pakistani police and have sought that happens, we cannot insist that a case be handled regular updates on their investigation. These updates more swiftly than normal; but we will make representations have been passed to the family’s police family liaison to the local authorities if we fear that an investigation is officer so that they can be given directly to the family. not being carried out in line with local procedures, or if The fact that the police authorities in Pakistan are there are justified complaints about discrimination. I 309 Yousaf Family12 OCTOBER 2010 Yousaf Family 310

[Alistair Burt] I mentioned at the start of my speech the two other priorities for the FCO: safeguarding national security undertake here and now to my hon. Friend and to the and building prosperity. The British Government are family of Mohammad, Pervez and Tania that should committed to a long-term, productive and friendly there be such evidence in this investigation, our high partnership with Pakistan. Events in Pakistan have a commission in Islamabad will raise it with the Pakistani direct impact on our national security and the safety of authorities. our citizens, including those of Pakistani heritage. We Let me also say clearly that I will remain personally therefore have a strong interest in helping Pakistan to engaged in this case—as will my hon. Friend—will embed economic and democratic stability. This has continue to follow it closely, and will become involved been particularly evident in the light of the devastating as and when I can appropriately do so in a manner that floods that have hit the country. The UK has led the might be helpful. I have set out the support I believe international response to the flooding, encouraging our that we can and should offer to the family. If any of international partners to commit support to help Pakistan them do not think that we are providing that support, I meet the long-term challenges it faces, and securing shall be pleased to be told about it, and my hon. Friend European Union agreement to pursue a step change in will tell me. its relationship with Pakistan, including through increased As was observed by my hon. Friend and others who trade concessions. have spoken tonight, this tragedy is not an isolated All of this goes to show the strength of family incident. That point was made very clearly and strongly relationships between this country and Pakistan, to me by the family themselves when they came to see relationships which many Members have experienced, me. Perhaps that is one of the most worrying aspects of and continue to experience, in our constituencies. It also the case. It goes without saying that the vast majority of shows the importance of Pakistan to so many people in the many visits made each year to Pakistan by British the country, and it shows the need for a sense of nationals are entirely trouble-free, but over the years we stability and security to be there in Pakistan for those have seen a number of British nationals die in suspicious who visit. circumstances in Pakistan, and there have been a number All Members of Parliament are concerned for the of violent assaults. Since October 2009, there have been welfare of our constituents wherever they may be in the nine murders of British nationals in Pakistan of which world. I can assure Members that consular staff worldwide we are aware, in addition to those of Mohammad, share the same concern and desire to do their best for Pervez and Tania. Indeed, there have been two similar British nationals in need of their assistance. In this cases since the Yousaf family’s own tragic loss, with the case—where none of us can fail to be moved—I again deaths of four British nationals. commend the work of my hon. Friend the Member for We cannot say for certain why these tragedies have Pendle. happened, but there is some evidence to suggest that We continue to extend our deepest sympathy to the most have resulted from a family dispute about money, family of Mohammad, Pervez and Tania, and I hope I property or marriage. Nor, I should add, are they have made it clear that the remarks made in this debate exclusive to Pakistan. In addition to the work on this are likely to go some distance tonight and to be heard particular case, I have asked officials in the Foreign and by many people. If in any way they help to bring a sense Commonwealth Office to consider how we can raise of concern to the authorities who are dealing with the awareness of those recent incidents with the Pakistani case, and if they raise awareness of the danger to community here in the United Kingdom. I will also some—although far from all—who visit Pakistan, my speak to the Pakistan high commissioner, drawing his hon. Friend will have done a very good job. We will attention to the incidents and to my worries—and the continue to do all we can to ensure that the most worries of colleagues who have raised the issue in the important outcome of the case—justice for the family House tonight—about their implications, and seeking and those who have been killed—is eventually achieved. his views on what, if anything, we can do to prevent Question put and agreed to. such tragedies from happening again and how he and we can reassure families like the Yousafsthat the Pakistani authorities will do all in their power to ensure that 11.57 pm justice is done. House adjourned. 1WH 12 OCTOBER 2010 Epilepsy Services 2WH

For many people with nocturnal epilepsy, perhaps Westminster Hall the biggest fear is something called SUDEP. Those without much familiarity of epilepsy may not be aware of SUDEP, but it stands for sudden unexpected death Tuesday 12 October 2010 in epilepsy. Almost 1,000 people die from epilepsy every year, many of them in the younger age groups, and two thirds of those deaths are avoidable. As I say, SUDEP [MR GARY STREETER in the Chair] particularly affects young people, yet one survey by Epilepsy Action found that 33% of primary care trusts Epilepsy Services lack a transition plan for the transition of individuals from childhood to adult care. I think that such a plan is Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting vital, because when an individual moves from childhood be now adjourned.—(Mr Dunne.) to adult care, that is their period of greatest vulnerability. Many of the tragic cases that I have received letters 9.30 am about—I know that many other Members here today have also received such letters—involve young people Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con): who one minute were living a happy, normal life, and It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, then suddenly one night they went to sleep and did not Mr Streeter. It is also a pleasure to see so many Members wake up. To me, such cases are great tragedies. A focus in Westminster Hall, which shows how important the on the provision of better-quality data on children’s topic is to so many people. epilepsy and transition care is needed, to see whether we I am very pleased to have secured this debate at what can prevent such cases from occurring. If we could only is a crucial time for people with epilepsy—crucial because match the median death rate for the 15 original EU of the uncertainty about how the Government intend to member states, for example, we would prevent a quarter deal with the condition in the future. We are going of the current deaths from SUDEP in Britain. If that through a period of structural reform in the NHS, number of deaths was caused by a single transport which I strongly believe will lead to substantial benefits accident, we would have a public inquiry tomorrow. for many patients, but there may well be a temptation These days, calling for a public inquiry has become during this period of reform for the Department of something of a cliché, but I am talking about a substantial Health to concentrate more on structural reform than number of deaths, and I believe that we can make on individual conditions such as epilepsy. I want to use progress in reducing it. this debate to try to explain to the Minister why he The issue is not only the human cost, but the financial should focus on particular chronic conditions and not cost. In particular, I want to focus on misdiagnosis. just on the bigger picture of structural reform. In particular, Epilepsy Action says that between 20% and 30% of I want to explain why I think that epilepsy is quite cases of epilepsy are misdiagnosed, at a cost of £140 million different from many other chronic conditions. to the NHS. I know from personal experience that I have epilepsy myself, as well as another chronic misdiagnosis happens. When I first started having fits at condition, cerebral palsy. The cerebral palsy is part of night, when I moved down to London in my early 20s, I my life, day in and day out; it never goes away, it is did not really know what was happening to me. I just always there and I know that it is there. Epilepsy is thought that I was falling out of bed, but there was qualitatively different. I often liken it to a thief in the blood everywhere and I could not quite put two and night, because it creeps up unexpectedly. I have nocturnal two together. One evening, I threw myself out of bed epilepsy, so epilepsy affects me when I fall asleep and sufficiently hard that I banged my head against my the chemicals in my brain do whatever they do such that bedside table and had quite a deep cut between my a fit occurs. In my case, fits are triggered by alcohol, so I eyebrow and one eye, missing taking my eye out by the now have to avoid alcohol continually everywhere I go. narrowest of margins. My next door neighbour said, “I What is important to stress, and what many people really think that you ought to go and get that seen to.” I without epilepsy may not realise, is the fear that accompanies did not want to get it seen to, because I could not really epilepsy. I do not fear my cerebral palsy, because it is explain to the nurse what had happened. Nevertheless, I predictable; I know that it is there and I know what is pootled down to the hospital, where the attitude of the occurring as a result of it. With the epilepsy, however, nurse was to say, “You’ve been drinking, haven’t you?” when I wake up the morning after a fit, I do not know To my mind, that is a classic example of misdiagnosis. who I am, or even necessarily where I am. My short-term A chance to diagnose me with epilepsy and to start me memory has gone and I cannot quite put together what on a treatment plan was missed because there was a I did the day before, including where I was. Even now, presumption that I had been drinking and that the cut I when I have a fit I am not really sure where I am in the had suffered was caused by drunkenness. country and I fear what has happened to me overnight. Misdiagnosis affects the treatment of epilepsy at Have I soiled myself? Is there a mess on the floor? Will I every stage of the process. Apparently, some 74,000 have to call for help and have to deal with the people who are diagnosed with epilepsy do not actually embarrassment that that might cause? It is therefore have it. Not only does that misdiagnosis have a cost in very important to stress to those who do not have terms of the cost of the drugs that those people are put epilepsy the fear that accompanies a fit, or rather the on, but it has a human cost in terms of the stigma fear that accompanies the aftermath of a fit. It is not that those people feel that they have to bear and the the fit itself that is the unpleasant experience for those worry that they face in their daily lives. If they could of us with epilepsy, because we do not experience it; we only be diagnosed with what they actually have, rather are not there during a fit. It is the aftermath—dealing than with what they do not have, that would improve with the consequences of a fit—that is often the problem. their lives. 3WH Epilepsy Services12 OCTOBER 2010 Epilepsy Services 4WH

[Paul Maynard] campaigning to promote their virtues, referring to them as “sapphires”, and they have an important role to play. There are also 69,000 people who have the wrong We have about 250 at the moment, but the best estimate type of epilepsy diagnosed. I have gone into quite some of how many we need is 1,100. There is clearly a gap, detail about the type of epileptic fits that I have. I gather and those who are retiring or leaving are not being that there are some 40 varieties of epileptic fit that can replaced, so the shortage will continue to worsen. The affect an individual and they all require slightly different previous Government recognised the importance of treatments, so it is important that people are given the sapphire nurses and was going to study their effectiveness. right diagnosis. That is why specialisms matter. Epilepsy Will the Minister reassure me that the current Government is special and I want the Minister to regard it as a will proceed with that study and recognise the importance special type of chronic condition. That is not to say that of such nurses? Specialist nurses are a cost-effective other chronic conditions do not matter or are unimportant, means of providing consistent low-cost care that monitors but epilepsy is quite different from many other chronic a patient’s condition over time, ensuring that any blips conditions and it needs to be treated in a special way. on the radar are picked up early and preventing the That special treatment means having special GPs to need for costlier intervention further down the line. deal with epilepsy. I was fortunate that, when I was first That is the crucial point: better care and treatment diagnosed with epilepsy, I had a GP who was interested are more cost-effective. We are all, I hope, looking for in the condition. When I moved house, my next GP was ways to save money, and that is one way to do so. We do not quite so interested in epilepsy, so the nature and not want inadequate care at the primary care stage to quality of my treatment and care changed. With the lead to more expensive tertiary care later. We do not formation of local commissioning groups, I hope that want crises to occur. Cheaper care occurs in a primary we will have the opportunity for GPs to develop those setting and helps individuals to manage their condition, specialisms and to build on those interests, not just in putting the patient in charge. However, to use the word the treatment of epilepsy but in the treatment of the “special” again, we need more specialism at the tertiary other special conditions that people regularly go to level as well. Neurological consultants are thin on the their GP about. I think that local commissioning groups ground, but neurological consultants with an interest in offer an opportunity to advance that agenda and I urge epilepsy are even scarcer. They offer one way to help to the Minister to explain to us how he thinks the groups prevent and correct misdiagnoses and to get it right the can help GPs to develop those specialisms. first time, but I gather from another Epilepsy Action It is worth highlighting a report by the all-party survey that 90% of primary care trusts are not meeting group on epilepsy back in 2007—three years ago now— the recommended two-week deadline for seeing a which contained a fantastic quote from Dr Hannah consultant. Cock, a senior lecturer at St George’s hospital, who said I say that with a degree of caution, because I am no “Unless patients with long-term epilepsy at general practice fan of two-week deadlines. They can be artificial, lack level are in crisis, they do not get referred.” clinical sophistication and rob clinicians of their own That is a very important point. People should not have clinical judgment. I have never been a fan of the two-week to wait for a crisis to occur before they get the treatment deadline. However, in my view, it has slightly more than that they most need. I know that President Obama’s a decorative role, if only because a lot of people present recently retired chief of staff is known for saying, to their GP when the sort of crisis that I mentioned has “Never let a good crisis go to waste,” but when it comes occurred. Some degree of urgency in referral is needed, to epilepsy care, we do not want to get to that crisis particularly because I hear many stories of cases where point. We want to have consistency of care and that patients have died after referral but before having seen a consistency of care is itself very important. consultant. That is an avoidable tragedy. We do not need artificial deadlines or targets, but there needs to be In particular, I want to raise the issue of generic some way to ensure that urgent cases are referred promptly substitution, which again might sound rather arcane to and reasonable confidence that they will see a consultant those who are not familiar with it. Like many other within a reasonable period. people, I take a regular dose of medicines and tablets. I go down to my pharmacy every six or eight weeks to I also ask for a bit of special treatment on the pick up my new set of prescriptions. I have no problem national level. I would be interested to hear whether the with the idea of substituting generic medicines—it is Minister might consider creating the post of national important that we get value for money and effective clinical director for epilepsy, which has been a long-term medicine. What I am concerned about and what I ask demand of many organisations in the Joint Epilepsy the Minister for reassurance on is consistency of supply. Council. One can commission successfully at regional Although the name on the packet might be the same, if level—it has been done in many parts of the country for the drug comes from a different manufacturer that uses many chronic conditions—but a degree of national a slightly different compound—if it is altered in ever so oversight is needed to ensure that standards are set and tiny a way—it can have a massive impact on how my adhered to. I realise that the National Institute for brain reacts when various things occur in it that might Health and Clinical Excellence has set clinical guidelines, lead to fits. Consistency of supply, not generic substitution but I have concerns. itself, is my concern. I know that the Department has In 2005, I was fortunate enough to be the parliamentary engaged in a consultation on the matter, but for the sake candidate for Twickenham, not far from the Minister’s of the many people like me who are worried about it, I constituency. I wrote a letter to the local paper during ask for some reassurance. national epilepsy week because I wanted to highlight The other issue involving consistency on which the the issues, and someone wrote in the next week to say Minister can offer some comfort is specialist nurses. that clearly I was possessed by evil spirits. I had thought They are a wonderful idea. Epilepsy Action has been that Twickenham and south-west London were a 5WH Epilepsy Services12 OCTOBER 2010 Epilepsy Services 6WH particularly liberal, enlightened part of the world. That Blackpool North and Cleveleys but Julius Caesar and is what I was always told; they were so sophisticated Dostoevsky, whose book “The Idiot” contains the best that they had discovered liberal democracy a few years literary encapsulation of what it is like subjectively to earlier than the rest of us. Blaming evil spirits was experience the condition. However, for many people, it perhaps a bit unfair to me, but for many patients, NICE is a profoundly socially debilitating experience. My first clinical guidelines are a bit like spirits. They have no real encounter with it as a fact of life was when I was a child substance or tangible meaning, because they are not in primary school in Maghull. On my way to school, I mandatory. walked past what was in those days called an epileptic I know that there is always a big discussion about home, where it was not uncommon to see the rather whether clinical guidelines should be mandatory if we distressing sight of a man—he seemed quite elderly, but do not want to take clinical power away from consultants, was presumably younger than I am now—lying on the but clinicians are frustrated that they cannot implement floor while his workmates gathered around him, spoon the guidelines, and patients are equally disappointed in hand to stop him swallowing his tongue. that the guidelines do not mean anything in reality. The presumption in those days was that epilepsy There is a perhaps more philosophical question to be debarred people from a range of activities. Those men dealt with. If we are to have clinical guidelines for any were obviously considered suitable only for farm labour condition, how can we deal with the fact that clinicians and lived, as I said, in what was then called an epileptic need to be reasonably confident that they are supposed home. It is now a nice flat development; care has moved to implement them and patients need to be confident on. Things have improved enormously, largely due to that they will mean something? There is no point having the intervention of drugs, better neurological understanding clinical guidelines as decorative features. They are not and the involvement of patients and patients’ groups—I Christmas trees; they are meant to help clinicians give think the hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys better treatment. alluded to the expert patient programme. People have The last Government met with the Joint Epilepsy become better at controlling the condition and, indeed, Council. I pay immense tribute to the then Opposition at preventing seizures within the condition. These days, spokesman, Earl Howe. I know how much he has done many people who have epilepsy do not actually have on epilepsy and I have worked with him for many years. seizures. He is a good man, and I more than anyone am delighted However, when we consider the provision available to see him a Minister at last. He told the conference of for the condition, it is manifest that we need centres of NHS commissioners to go away and make a difference. special excellence, such as the Chalfont Centre and the How, specifically, does the present Minister think that Walton Centre for Neurology and Neurosurgery NHS. NHS commissioners are making a difference? In particular, There is a high rate of misdiagnosis and epilepsy is not I make a plea to him to meet with me and representatives a subject on which even an acute hospital always has the of the epilepsy charities—the Joint Epilepsy Council, relevant or best expertise. It is also clear that the prevalence Epilepsy Bereaved, Epilepsy Action—and senior clinicians of the condition means that specialist support has to be to discuss some of the sector’s fundamental concerns. available locally in the acute environment and in the As I said, better treatment and better care will lead to community. Nurses need to be able to give the patient bigger cost savings for the Department, but more the support that they need. That is particularly the case importantly, they will improve quality of life of the for children who, of course, are not expert in their 400,000 people in this country who have epilepsy. condition. Such general provision is needed to improve I was surprised to read that the primary care trust for diagnosis and treatment, to control symptoms and to my Blackpool constituency has the highest incidence of provide advice. As well as doctors and specialists, nurses epilepsy in the country. I had not realised that. We are are clearly crucial, and that was, in fact, the theme of talking not about a small group but of a large group of the hon. Gentleman’s comments. people who must deal with an immense stigma in their My research on the subject so far has clearly shown lives, as I know some of my hon. Friends will describe. that treatment is a lottery for patients across the country We must deal with it day in, day out. Epilepsy is unlike and that access to centres of excellence varies. Appointment any other chronic condition. I thank the Minister for times, local commissioning and support differ from listening and my colleagues for attending. Can we please primary care trust to primary care trust. Such is the hear some good, positive news about how the Minister variation that the Minister of Health in the previous intends to take the agenda forward? Government suggested that strategic health authorities should be asked to review their provision because the 9.48 am statistics were showing that 64% of PCTs had no specialist Dr John Pugh (Southport) (LD): I congratulate the nurses, and there was a 20% to 30% misdiagnosis element hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul in treatment. It was also said that there were 400 avoidable Maynard) on speaking in such a personal and informed deaths. I am not sure how that figure was established, way. With your indulgence, Mr Streeter, I welcome the but appreciable costs are obviously involved in suing—I new shadow Health Secretary, the right hon. Member have seen £138 million and £183 million mentioned. for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey), to our midst. There are different figures given on that, but clearly the I congratulate him on his party’s endorsement of him. amount concerned is substantial and we need to take Achieving such a position in the rankings can only be a the issue seriously, particularly in a time of austerity reward for the competence and ability shown over a when resources are perforce stretched. sustained period. I hope—the hon. Gentleman certainly shares this Flattery aside, epilepsy is one of the oldest diseases hope—that, as we gravitate towards GP-led commissioning, known to man. It has affected many celebrated and some of those ills will abate and the situation will distinguished people—not only the hon. Member for improve. Presumably, specialist neurological services 7WH Epilepsy Services12 OCTOBER 2010 Epilepsy Services 8WH

[Dr John Pugh] account” mean? The phrase is relatively undefined and I can think of about three different meanings I could give will be a matter not for local PCT commissioning, but it. The Minister can perhaps tell me which definition is the national commissioning body. However, it is not right. If a GP commissioning body fails to perform well entirely clear how good or able such a body will in dealing with this chronic complaint, does “holding to be—whether it will be in a strong or weak position—to account” mean that they will simply be named and deal with the matter. shamed? Does such an expression mean GP commissioning In terms of tracking parliamentary answers, many of bodies will be financially penalised, which is another which have been provided by the Minister or his officers, way of being held to account—if someone does not do no information is collected centrally on specialist the job they are supposed to, they will lose resources as appointments or on readmission rates. There is also no a result; or does the phrase mean—this is the third information available on the destiny of specialist nurses— definition—that GP commissioning bodies will be how much time they spend performing their specialist overruled? The actual task of holding to account is function and to what extent they get drafted into other important and it is vital we are precise about what we work. There may be enough evidence for a national mean by that. Unless we get the right profile locally, commissioning body to do a good job and produce the talking a good game here will not make much difference. right kind of service across the country to the satisfaction In holding GP commissioning bodies to account, we of the hon. Gentleman and all other epilepsy sufferers, must ask ourselves not only how the issue is examined, but it is not currently apparent that the data are there to who examines it and what they then do, but from where allow that to be done. the information comes for such an examination. In In addition, it cannot be assumed that all GP other words, five, six or seven years down the line, if we commissioners would be able and willing to commission have to examine how one local commissioning body well. I was interested in what the hon. Gentleman said performs compared with another, will the only way to about his journey of moving from one doctor to another, do that be by asking that commissioning body to mark and the expertise being available in one practice as its own papers and provide data of its own choosing? opposed to another. There are quite good reasons why Clearly, that would not be adequate or satisfactory. GP commissioners and GPs themselves might not be Those are fair questions. able to field every episode of epilepsy to everybody’s I think that the Minister and all hon. Members here satisfaction—for example, they might have limited clinical want progress in dealing with this chronic condition. experience or be new to the profession. On the basis of We do not simply want frameworks, guidance and the statistics I have seen—I have put them to some use detail here and there of what should be in place—the and come up with a figure—I calculate that most GPs hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys used probably have on average around 10 patients who suffer the phrase “decorative features”—without there being a from an epileptic-like condition. GPs might not see hard-edged attempt to ensure that what we believe many people with such a condition very often at all. should be in place actually is in place. I conclude by So how do we ensure that GP commissioning is, as we simply pressing the Minister to say what will happen all hope, better and not worse than PCT commissioning? when a GP commissioning body performs less than I think we all recognise—indeed, the previous Government adequately. Who will do what, when and with which recognised—that PCT commissioning was by no means data? That is not a trivial question; it is important to all perfect. Monitoring GP performance is particularly epilepsy sufferers. difficult because epilepsy sufferers are very much a minority. It is not clear who will monitor how well GPs 9.59 am are dealing with the matter. After all, GP performance Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): I congratulate the monitoring is currently done by PCTs and, clearly, GP hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul monitoring that is done by GPs might not be as good as Maynard) on securing the debate and on speaking so GP monitoring done by others. The legislation does not eloquently, which focused our minds from the start. I make it entirely clear how big GP commissioning bodies am pleased to have the opportunity to say a few words will be, but presumably they will be on a smaller scale on the impact of NHS treatment on the education of and have fewer resources than the PCTs that they will children with epilepsy. The hon. Gentleman mentioned replace. That is an issue. misdiagnosis and the impact it can have on children and When the new regime appears, how will we get improved on adults, and he mentioned the impact of transition, commissioning, so that there is not a repetition of the with 33% of transition plans not being what they should problem of a minority condition not being treated be. That has a negative impact on not only children’s particularly well? The Department of Health has a health, but, crucially, their education. I am pleased that mantra that goes something like this: commissioning is some students have attended the debate to listen to what a matter for local decision making and the Department we have to say. will not tell local commissioners how to do it. However, There is some very good practice in parts of the it will judge them against a quality framework and NHS, but it is not consistent across the whole health assess how well they are doing it. I think that the service, and schools and colleges could do much more expression is that GP commissioners will be “held to to support children with epilepsy. I am pleased that the account” on how well they deal with epilepsy as a Minister of State, Department for Education, the hon. condition. Member for Brent Central (Sarah Teather), is planning That is fine by me. I am very comfortable with that to meet the Joint Epilepsy Council later this month and being done—it certainly should be done and I think I hope that she will pick up the matter with the same that the hon. Gentleman will be very comfortable if that interest as her predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member is done—but what does the expression “holding to for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana R. Johnson). 9WH Epilepsy Services12 OCTOBER 2010 Epilepsy Services 10WH

The education system must learn from best practice I do not know whether other hon. Members know so that it can ensure that the education of young people this, but my hon. Friend and I, as epileptics, are not with epilepsy does not suffer as a result of the wrong allowed to walk up the stairs to the top of Big Ben. support in schools. Children experience particular problems There are many things that we cannot do, such as in mainstream schools because of the NHS’s occasional recreational diving; epileptics cannot go diving unless failure to get their treatment right. I urge the Minister they have been seizure free for five years and have not to work with his colleagues in the Department for been taking medication for that time. I would have Education to ensure that minds are brought together on thought that it was probably quite useful to take medication, that to get the best deal for children. and I have done quite a bit of scuba diving without As the hon. Members for Blackpool North and Cleveleys knowing about those regulations. We are creating barriers and for Southport (Dr Pugh) noted, the move to GP because we do not understand the variations in epilepsy. commissioning offers opportunities, but it also offers There is extreme epilepsy, mild epilepsy and seizure-free risks. Whatever changes are made, it is crucial that epilepsy, and we have an opportunity to ensure that young people with epilepsy do not suffer further because more people are seizure free and making a contribution of increased instances of misdiagnosis and a lack of to society. I would like the Minister to join us, with the appropriate support. I hope that the Minister, with his Joint Epilepsy Council, to ensure that we start to make colleagues in the Department for Education, will bring the authorities, teachers and the medical profession sufficient analysis to bear to ensure that that can be understand more about the variations and the opportunities better dealt with in the education system. available to people with epilepsy who have been properly diagnosed and are properly medicated. We should look at the commitment that is in place in Wales to have a school nurse in every school and My chairmanship of the all-party group on epilepsy consider whether we should have something similar in is concerned with stigma and with those who have England to ensure consistency of support for young severe epilepsy, but also with liberation for those who people with epilepsy and other conditions so that their have controlled epilepsy. When I became chairman, I education is not negatively affected. There is a double was contacted immediately by a local GP, who happens disbenefit with epilepsy: there are the health issues, to be one of the best in the country specialising in which were explained so excellently earlier; and there epilepsy.Over the past five years, with seven GPs specialising are the knock-on effects on children’s education. That is in epilepsy, we have reduced related A and E admissions what concerns me and why I have spoken in the debate. in South Thanet by 60%. That is most certainly a cost saving, but also a life liberator. We are reducing seizures for patients across the area, and I would like the Minister 10.3 am to look at what we have done. Patients are getting that primary attention and are not having to wait for months Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con): I thank my hon. for appointments with consultants. They have ongoing Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys care with specialist nurses. (Paul Maynard) for securing the debate, as it is important that the matter is brought to the fore. I am lucky and What we have achieved in South Thanet is a model privileged to be the chairman of the all-party group on that could be rolled out over many other specialisms, epilepsy, and I am pleased that we are joined today by where GPs who are passionate about a subject can many young epileptic people who are taking their education make the difference and ensure that we have a more forward and have a bright future ahead of them. We effective and responsive service. Hopefully we will reach must ensure that we give them the same future in the target for epilepsy, which is for 72% of sufferers to employment that we give other young people, and that be seizure free. I would welcome the opportunity to future is about controlling a chronic condition. meet the Minister and to discuss our services in South Thanet further. Like my hon. Friend, I am epileptic, though I am lucky to have had very few seizures—I have had five in my life and no incident in the past seven years. There is 10.9 am a wide range of conditions—40, as my hon. Friend mentioned. Some people, like me, sometimes forget that Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): I thank the hon. they are epileptic, while others have seizures regularly, Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul sometimes daily. The issue we all share is stigma. As Maynard) for securing this debate, and for speaking so soon as one mentions the word “epilepsy”, all sorts of eloquently and passionately. I do not hope to speak extraordinary ideas come into people’s minds, and there with his expertise, but I do have some expertise, inasmuch can be an assumption that we might need constant as I have a close family member—a brother—who has attention. suffered with epilepsy over the past 15 years. I have Children with epilepsy have a particularly difficult some insight into the nature of the difficulties that he time in school, because even if they do not have any has encountered, the problems in the current NHS seizures they can be wrapped in cotton wool and stopped system, and the issues that emerge in dealing with this from participating in outdoor sports. A child with epilepsy chronic but particular condition in that system. of course needs attention, and my hon. Friend is right My brother is one of the 500,000 people in this that nurses and teachers need to understand that seizures country who have epilepsy. They are a minority, but a might occur, but we must start to relax about this. We significant one—that is a lot of people. He is also one of must focus on epilepsy from a medical point of view, the 50% of the 500,000 who are not seizure free: he has but we must not stop young people participating and had a seizure every month, if not every week, for all of being part of a life when, with proper diagnosis and the the past 15 years. That has had a dramatic impact on his right medication, they can make an important contribution life in terms of what work he is able to do, the energy he in school and in employment. has, and the fear that he lives with, which the hon. 11WH Epilepsy Services12 OCTOBER 2010 Epilepsy Services 12WH

[Owen Smith] to see that critical piece of the jigsaw applied in respect of epilepsy care. In recent years, we have seen data Gentleman described so eloquently and which all people gathering become an important tool for tackling other who have epilepsy have to contend with on a daily basis, chronic conditions, notably cancer. of sudden unexplained death as a result of the condition. I worked in bioscience before coming to this House, That is my interest. It has given me an insight into and therefore have some insight into the science around issues that have already been raised today about the epilepsy and the economics around the production of postcode provision, to use the vernacular, that exists medicines. Prescribing of epilepsy medicines seems to across the NHS. We have a fragmented NHS, particularly involve a form of Russian roulette because our in respect of epilepsy. That is the case for many other understanding of this neurological condition is deeply conditions, but it is particularly true for epilepsy. The imperfect. For example, my brother has been through phrase “Cinderella condition” is rather overused in the 11 or 12 medicines and combinations of medicines. press these days, but epilepsy is one of those conditions. Doctors still employ what is pretty much a hit and hope We can genuinely say that it does not have the high strategy. Perhaps I am being slightly unfair, but I believe profile that it ought to have and therefore does not that many epilepsy experts recognise that they do not receive the concentration that it should. really know which medicine will work, and therefore There is clearly fragmented, unequal distribution of they try various drugs until they find the one that works expertise in the NHS in terms of general practitioners, for their patient. In my brother’s case, and in the case of who, as the first point of call for anyone suffering with 50% of sufferers, they often do not find the one that epilepsy, are critical, and nurse specialists. I believe that works, and we get into the more complicated issues that is widely recognised. Like the previous Government, around whether surgery is required. the current Government recognise that specialist nursing Generic substitution is clearly an issue. We all understand for epilepsy is under-resourced in this country and, that we need to make savings, and the importance of equally, that it is an extremely important means of substituting generic medicines for the original brands redressing the problem of insufficient provision of expert when they are available. GPs. It is clear that there are few centres of excellence for Dr Pugh: The hon. Gentleman made a good point epilepsy in this country, and, therefore, that people such about data, which is worth repeating. However, there as my brother, who lives in Wales, have to travel long must be data on every episode dealt with through acute distances to hospitals or other centres of excellence for hospital care. His Government introduced the tariff prolonged examinations to monitor brain patterns. He, system. Therefore, in some shape or form, the data are too, suffers from nocturnal epilepsy, and therefore needs there—they just do not appear to be available for clinical to be studied in clinical conditions in hospital to try to purposes. determine the nature of his condition and what resources might be brought to bear to alleviate it. Owen Smith: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, I, too, have some fears about the extent to which the and I have recently had answers from the Government creation of the new GP consortiums will exacerbate the about that. It is not simply a question of gathering the problem of fragmentation and inequality of provision data. The NHS is a wonderful sponge, soaking up data. across the country. I can accept that, in areas where The critical thing is wringing it out and employing data there are GPs with a special interest or particularly to improve services. Epilepsy is an area that has not strong centres of excellence, there may be a beneficial been concentrated on, and therefore there is no emphasis effect in massing GPs together and spreading their on garnering data. expertise through a wider network. Equally, I can see We must be careful about generic substitution of significant potential for unintended dangers if we do epilepsy drugs. I know that many sufferers agree with not have GPs in those consortiums and we have a that. Another point is that genericisation of a market in diminution of control over, and certainly insight into, medicines leads to changes in the economic incentives their activities. It is unclear what the sources of for research and development companies to produce commissioning will be, and who exactly will be them. There clearly are not incentives for companies to commissioning specialist services. That has yet to be produce new epilepsy drugs. That is inevitable because clarified, and I look forward to the Minister’s giving us of the large number of epilepsy medicines, many of some greater insight into that. which are effective, and many of which have been Another thing that I worry about in respect of genericised. consortiums is data. We have poor data on epilepsy: Part of the answer in fixing markets that are not how many people suffer, the nature of their condition, working has to be Government intervention to try to how often they attend hospital, how often they are improve incentives. The previous Government were making treated for acute episodes. Perhaps if their condition effective inroads through the innovation fund and the had been managed more effectively, it would not have innovation pass that they were negotiating with the reached that point. I have tabled numerous parliamentary pharmaceutical and biotechnology industries, which questions about that recently, and all the answers confirm would have encouraged and incentivised further R and that we do not gather enough data. D into more recondite diseases and the production of There will be a further danger that we will not gather medicines where there is not an immediate economic data if we fragment the NHS to the extent that is incentive. proposed with the creation of the consortiums. I hope I was therefore discouraged to hear that the innovation that the Minister will give us some reassurance that pass is being abandoned by the Government—it will information gathering will be a priority, whatever the not be taken forward. I would like to hear some reassurance structural make-up of the NHS, and that we will continue from the Minister that he is aware of the issue and 13WH Epilepsy Services12 OCTOBER 2010 Epilepsy Services 14WH interested in looking at how he can work with the The Government have an opportunity to consider pharmaceutical industry to incentivise further R and D generic substitution in the round, without coming to into those areas where this country does not perform any rash conclusions. We are talking about savings, in well. Epilepsy is one of them. We have a higher incidence this era of the comprehensive spending review, but this of unnecessary death from epilepsy, and, bluntly, we do is about understanding that epilepsy is a subjective not prescribe terribly well for it. It is an area where we condition that affects individuals differently, not about could produce more and take advantage of the great a one-size-fits-all approach in respect of the drugs and skills in the pharmaceutical industry, and where the prescribing regimes. This is a plea to the Minister to Government could have a positive impact. ensure that the right decision is made on behalf of sufferers.

10.19 am 10.23 am Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con): It is always (Paul Maynard) for securing this debate, and for his compelling when colleagues speak from personal experience. tremendous personal account of the condition of epilepsy, That has certainly been the case today. I congratulate and how it has impacted on his life and his journey to my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Westminster and becoming a Member. I thank my hon. Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) on the way in which he Friend the Member for South Thanet (Laura Sandys) introduced the debate. Indeed, his speech was so for being frank and for providing powerful insights into comprehensive that he has left little for other hon. the work and role of general practitioners in her Members to say. But being a Member of Parliament constituency. Clearly, they are making a difference. I will try to find something to add to this debate. I My contribution to this debate is about the structure congratulate my hon. Friend on sharing his experience of the NHS, especially in light of the fact that significant with us this morning. I am certain that he is still and welcome Government reforms are coming soon. In reflecting on what the history of this country would Witham, the number of administrators and bureaucrats have been like if he had been elected as MP for Twickenham. in the local primary care trust—Mid Essex PCT—has Colleagues have spoken about their personal experiences, increased fourfold in the past 10 years. In this debate, so perhaps I could share some of mine. A number of my we are talking about general practitioners, commissioning, family members have suffered with epilepsy, although I the postcode lottery in terms of services, nurses, access will not name any of them because they do not want to to care, real care provision on site and the ability to deal be the subject of any intrusion whatsoever. All I will say with epilepsy. I am sure that the Minister agrees that is that it is scary when people are not prepared for what epilepsy services could be served so much better by happens when someone has a fit. When a baby suddenly getting rid of a lot of the waste and bureaucracy. This is stops breathing it is stressful for parents who have not an opportunity to redirect the resources to ensure that been warned about such a situation. epilepsy is given the right kind of local care provision and to ensure that GPs who are commissioning services My hon. Friend mentioned people suffering from are dedicated the right kind of resources and professional epilepsy perhaps being thought to have had a bit too expertise that are so desperately needed out there. much to drink. I am ashamed to say that I am guilty of having made that misdiagnosis myself and coming to One of my constituents is here listening to the debate. the wrong conclusion. I am glad that he mentioned It is self-evident, from looking at my local PCT, that that. provision is hit and miss. It comes back to data, which we have heard a great deal about this morning. There is The Minister and I were colleagues on the Health not enough data out there. I struggle with that notion Committee. Throughout that time it occurred to me when I hear locally about the bureaucracy in my PCT, that, although it would have been a new contribution to which has been so vast that one wonders what it has the debate, we never had an inquiry into epilepsy. Now been doing to secure data in the past decade. I plead that my right hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood with the Minister to ensure that all the resources out (Mr Dorrell) is chairman of that Committee, perhaps there are redirected to the right purposes to serve local the Minister might like to consider that matter, together epilepsy sufferers in the right way. with my hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet My hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet (Laura Sandys), who is chair of the all-party group on mentioned stigma, but I should like to talk about quality epilepsy. That would be a good subject for a Health of life and referrals to specialists. I have heard from my Committee inquiry. constituent who is here this morning about how epilepsy Sudden unexpected death in epilepsy accounts for can prevent people from getting back into work. In more than half of all epilepsy-related deaths in the respect of anybody who is up and able and wants to be United Kingdom. We know that with a clear understanding an active citizen and contribute to their local economy, of epilepsy and good management of seizures, the risk or even make a difference in some service, it seems can be minimised, as hon. Members have already said. self-evident that we desperately need local services and The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence agencies working together to break down the barriers of guidelines recommend that information about the problem stigma; to work constructively to enhance the quality of should be provided to patients following a diagnosis of life of epilepsy sufferers; and to be more accommodating epilepsy. There is clear evidence that that does not and understanding of the needs of people going into appear to be happening. Perhaps all colleagues would the workplace, without being patronising, enabling them be diligent about this situation and inquire about what and supporting them perhaps even to develop careers in exactly is happening. People who are diagnosed with the field or profession in which they choose to work. diabetes or heart problems, for example, are made aware 15WH Epilepsy Services12 OCTOBER 2010 Epilepsy Services 16WH

[Mr David Amess] GP appointments and hospital admissions are taken into account. That does not include the far greater costs of the risk of death if their condition is not well to individuals and society as a whole for the thousands managed. Epilepsy should be in that category and dealt of people with epilepsy who cannot play a full role in with in the same way. their families, at work or in the community because they There is no national monitoring of epilepsy deaths. do not receive the care and support they need. However, the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 highlighted Following the efforts of patients and voluntary groups, epilepsy as one area in which standards could be developed. many of whom are here today, understanding of epilepsy There continues to be an urgent need for research into has increased in recent years. Last year, the all-party the cause and prevention of the problem. Eight years on group on epilepsy met the then Health Minister, Ann from the national sentinel audit that established the Keen, for discussions, including on the findings from level of avoidable deaths, our understanding of sudden Epilepsy Action’s 2009 report, “Epilepsy in England: death in epilepsy is greater, but we still need to reduce time for change” that NICE’s 2004 guidelines on epilepsy the number of such deaths, as my hon. Friend the hon. treatment are not being properly implemented in an Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys said. We estimated 90% of PCTs. need more research into this neglected medical syndrome. The White Paper reforms may offer a significant At a one-day conference for NHS commissioners in opportunity for some of the more neglected conditions January, the then Minister spoke specifically about how in health care. It has been acknowledged that national to improve epilepsy services. She met specialist epilepsy targets, which I have deplored, ignored some conditions. nurses at the National Society for Epilepsy, and wrote Now the White Paper promises a relaxation in the use to strategic health authorities asking them to consider of targets and puts patient safety at the heart of the how to improve services, including by increasing the NHS. number of specialist nurses. I understand that she intended In conclusion, if primary care practitioners are to be to ask the Care Quality Commission to undertake a responsible for commissioning epilepsy services, they review of epilepsy services in the NHS. My first question will need to be well informed on these issues, as my hon. to the Minister here today is: what plans do his Government Friend has made clear. They will need to move beyond have to increase the number of specialist epilepsy nurses the dreadful tick-box exercise for epilepsy in the GP and will they ask the commission to conduct that review contract and look seriously at the potential for achieving into epilepsy services? My experience is that the more positive outcomes for patients and a more cost- commission’s reviews can make a real difference in effective health service. raising awareness of such issues. I ask the Minister to bring these issues to the forefront The key question today is whether the Government’s as we build on our excellent national health service. plans for the NHS will make the improvements that epilepsy patients desperately need. The key concern that 10.29 am we have heard about today is the future of commissioning. Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab): It is a pleasure to Clearly, PCTs have struggled to deliver high-quality serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. I congratulate care for patients with epilepsy, as they have with many the hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys less common conditions. That is and always has been a (Paul Maynard) on securing the debate. I particularly real problem in the NHS. How can the highest possible thank him and the hon. Member for South Thanet standards of care for less common conditions be delivered (Laura Sandys) for their brave, personal speeches, delivered in every part of the country? If there have been difficulties with a frankness and honesty that is not always the in ensuring sufficient and expertise in 150 PCTs, that hallmark of politics or politicians. Just by speaking challenge will be even greater in the 500 commissioning about their conditions, they will have given strength and consortiums that the Government want to establish. courage to thousands of people with epilepsy throughout the country. I am grateful to them for that. The key issue that has been raised today is whether GPs have the necessary skills, awareness and interest in Hon. Members have powerfully set out the scale of epilepsy services. Some do, and there are some good, the problem and highlighted three key issues. The first is expert GPs, such as those to whom the hon. Member misdiagnosis: around 150,000 people are wrongly diagnosed for South Thanet referred, but many do not have the with epilepsy or are diagnosed with the wrong sort of same skills and experience, and that is of great concern epilepsy. The second is poor quality treatment: patients to patients with epilepsy. The expertise that does exist in may not see a specialist quickly enough and, because of PCTs is in grave danger of being lost. Many PCT staff the problems of misdiagnosis, thousands of patients who have been involved in commissioning are, take powerful drugs that are unnecessary or do not understandably, looking for other jobs outside work effectively, and they must make repeated visits to commissioning or outside the NHS. Will the Minister their GP or go into hospital. Thirdly, because of poor explain how he will ensure that GPs have the necessary diagnosis and treatment, there are unacceptably poor skills and experience to identify and then correctly to outcomes for individuals with epilepsy and for society refer patients to specialists? How will he ensure that GP as a whole. Only half of those with epilepsy live seizure-free, commissioning consortiums have the necessary skills when the estimate is that 70% could do so. Of the and expertise to commission high-quality epilepsy services? almost 1,000 deaths from epilepsy every year, approximately 400 are avoidable—that is at least one unnecessary My hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe (Nic death from epilepsy every day of the year. Dakin) raised an important question. How will the The estimated financial cost of that poor-quality care Minister ensure that GP commissioning consortiums includes more than £20 million a year spent on incorrect work with schools, local authorities and other care drugs, and rises to more than £130 million if unnecessary services? My local authority in Leicester has worked 17WH Epilepsy Services12 OCTOBER 2010 Epilepsy Services 18WH hard to build up relationships with the PCT, but that Our debate today on epilepsy services will be mirrored has been thrown up in the air and it must now develop in relation to a huge number of other conditions. People relationships with individual GPs. That is a big challenge. want to know how their condition will be improved by I want to make it clear that GPs must be more the planned changes. I am privileged that my first effectively involved in shaping NHS services. They are debate as a shadow Health Minister has been on this the first port of call for patients and their decisions important subject, and I thank all hon. Members and affect 90% of spending in the NHS. Yet many GPs do the patients and patient groups who have come here not want and do not currently have the skills necessary today. to take on responsibility for commissioning £80 billion of NHS services. Despite claiming that they will end 10.39 am top-down reorganisation in the NHS, the Government The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul continue to insist that all GPs must take on that role, Burstow): I start by congratulating the hon. Member for and within a short time scale, but anyone who has been Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) on involved with the Government or the NHS knows that securing this debate and on the remarkable way in it takes a long time to change things in the NHS. PCTs which he outlined a compelling personal case and posed are spending a huge amount of time trying to persuade some important challenges for the Government. GPs to become involved and to ensure that they have Before I respond to the hon. Gentleman’s points and the right skills and expertise. Many people are worried, to contributions made by other hon. Members, I would rightly, about whether PCT staff who are about to lose like to correct an error that I made in a debate on their jobs will want to put in that time and effort and, if diabetes on 15 September. During that debate, I mistakenly they do, whether that time and effort would be better stated that the Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation spent on improving patient care. supports the NHS White Paper. In fact, it has not taken The financial costs of the Government’s reforms are a position either way, and I am happy to correct the also significant. They have said that they will protect record on that point at the earliest opportunity. NHS funding in the comprehensive spending review, In introducing the debate, the hon. Gentleman gave a but the ageing population, increases in long-term conditions, powerful account of why we must do better for the and ever more expensive drugs mean that the NHS is 450,000 people with epilepsy in the UK. He painted a still facing what the King’s Fund and the NHS compelling picture of the fear that the condition provokes Confederation have called the biggest financial challenge and the fear of the aftermath—the “thief in the night”, of its life. Its overall budget may be protected, but it as he put it. Many hon. Members have made powerful must make savings of £15 billion to £20 billion, and it testimonies in this debate, and that is to be commended. has never before achieved that. Despite the Government’s I also congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his recent claims that management will be cut by 45%, the King’s appointment as vice-chair of the all-party group on Fund estimates that the Government’s reorganisation muscular dystrophy and as vice-president of Epilepsy will cost £3 billion. Will the Minister explain why his Action, an organisation that does excellent work to Government believe that yet another major, structural support and advise people with epilepsy. He asked me if reorganisation is the best use of time and resources in I will meet with him and other colleagues from the the NHS, particularly in such financially challenging sector, and I would be happy to do that, together with times? his colleague, the hon. Member for South Thanet (Laura Ultimately, what matters to patients and the public is Sandys), who is chair of the all-party group on epilepsy. that they get the best health care and the best value for I hope that we can have further discussions about that. money. The Government have said that outcomes in the I also welcome the hon. Member for Leicester West NHS will be set out in the new NHS outcomes framework, (Liz Kendall) to her new role. I understand that, in a and that the new national NHS commissioning board previous incarnation, she worked as a special adviser to will be held to account for delivering those outcomes. a former Secretary of State. I look forward to our The board will also take direct responsibility for exchanges in Westminster Hall and the main Chamber commissioning some specialist services that used to be over the years to come. I hope that she will find the role commissioned at regional level. The board will have a as enjoyable and fulfilling as I do. budget of more than £100 billion a year, but it is unclear The debate has highlighted the many failings of the how it will be held to account by Ministers or Parliament, current arrangements for the design and delivery of who are responsible to the public for improving the epilepsy services. Those failings have been clearly articulated NHS. by many people, and in particular, the issue of stigma My final questions are as follows. Will the NHS was raised by the hon. Members for Scunthorpe (Nic outcomes framework include outcomes for epilepsy? Dakin) and for South Thanet. I undertake to take that Will the NHS commissioning board commission specialist issue back to the Minister of State, Department for epilepsy services, and will it draw on the expertise that Education, my hon. Friend the Member for Brent Central was developed at regional level to do so? Will the (Sarah Teather), who is to meet with colleagues in the Minister explain how the Government will ensure that sector soon, so that we can look at how to tackle that the commissioning board has the necessary expertise on problem. It is not a matter solely for the Department of epilepsy services? Will patients be involved in determining Health, but rather a wider societal issue and a challenge outcomes and the commissioning board’s work? How for the Government. We will discuss and look further at will Ministers and Parliament hold the board to account? how to ensure clarity and proportionality in the regulatory For example, if the board fails to include outcomes for burden. services such as epilepsy, will the Government or Parliament Hon. Members have referred to the various statistics be able to require the board to take action, or to remove that make up part of the picture: 69,000 people are individual members or the board as a whole? living with unnecessary seizures, and 74,000 people 19WH Epilepsy Services12 OCTOBER 2010 Epilepsy Services 20WH

[Paul Burstow] for children’s services, who has published guidance on improving the transition between child and adult services are taking drugs that they do not need. Nearly £200 million to ensure that everything possible is done to maintain is needlessly spent each year on hospital admissions people’s health and well-being. The subject of transition linked to poorly managed epilepsy. The 400 avoidable comes up more often that anything else, and we must deaths per year—a tragic number—are largely the result ensure that we have a better, clearer focus on the transition of poorly controlled epilepsy. between children’s services and adult services, and between The previous Government produced a string of policy primary and secondary care. documents designed to improve services and support patients with neurological conditions. The national service Mr Sam Gyimah (East Surrey) (Con): The National framework for long-term neurological conditions, and Centre for YoungPeople with Epilepsy is in my constituency the NICE clinical guidelines on epilepsy, are both strong and it is interesting to hear the Minister mention transition statements that the Government support. Plenty of care. Would he be open to considering a clinical standard sensible work has been done to improve support for for paediatric epilepsy? people with all kinds of long-term conditions, such as setting out the need to have a more patient-centred Paul Burstow: The Government proposals include a approach to their care. The problem, which has been national quality board that will be responsible for made clear in today’s debate, is that the words in those considering potential areas for quality standards, and statements have often not been translated into practice. NICE will take that work forward. There is already a The failing is not of our shared intent, but of number of standards in the national service framework, implementation. The previous Government’s top-down but I will certainly give further thought to the hon. approach created a culture where only what gets measured Gentleman’s point. gets done. That distorts priorities and, as the debate has A number of hon. Members have mentioned demonstrated, leaves gaping holes in provision and lets information, and the Government want to give patients people down in the ways that have been described. and the public all the information that they need to The solution is not to publish more strategies or add make informed choices and hold the NHS to account. more to the list of things that the NHS has to measure We will shortly be launching a new information strategy and account for. Instead, we should change the system to improve radically the range and quality of information entirely and record and value what really matters. That available to patients, professionals and the public, so is what our proposed NHS reforms are about, and I that there is increased transparency and strengthened welcome the opportunity to outline how those reforms accountability in the system. will have an impact on epilepsy. We want to strip out unnecessary targets and bureaucracy and replace them Teresa Pearce (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab): The with a system that recognises and rewards quality and Minister mentioned information for patients, but one overall patient outcomes. area of concern that has not been mentioned today is We have already held a consultation on the new that involving women of child-bearing age. Currently, outcomes framework. I am pleased that a number of such women are meant to be counselled by their GPs, neurological organisations contributed to that process, but sometimes that counselling is patchy or non-existent. including the Joint Epilepsy Council and Epilepsy Action. One successful drug creates a significant increase in The framework will drive a better approach to service baby malformations, so a woman who finds herself design and performance management across the NHS, pregnant must decide whether to carry on taking the including on issues of speed and accuracy of diagnosis. drug with a risk to the baby, or stop taking the drug It will be the engine of change, giving us clear and with a risk to herself. The risk of maternal death is coherent structures of accountability to drive radical almost 10 times higher for women with epilepsy. What improvements in standards from the bottom up, not the can be done to make GPs take seriously the role they top down. My hon. Friend the Member for Southport have when women are facing that terrible decision? (Dr Pugh) spoke about accountability, and I will say more on that later. Paul Burstow: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for I am determined that specific issues to do with raising that point. In the proposed quality and outcomes neurological conditions, and epilepsy in particular, should framework for 2011-12, NICE has recommended a new be appropriately reflected in the composition of the indicator to encourage more GPs to talk to women with outcomes framework, and I will make that point to the epilepsy about the drug risk during pregnancy. I hope NHS medical director, Bruce Keogh. I encourage other that that will focus on the point that the hon. Lady has hon. Members who are concerned about this matter to rightly raised. ensure that they also make such representations. I undertake Patients should be able to check up on local services to look at precisely what contribution the Care Quality right down to the performance of individual consultant Commission can make; clearly there are potentially teams, so that they can, if necessary, vote with their feet. many thematic reviews that it could undertake—far That not only gives patients more control, but it exerts more than it could carry out in any one year. It is a pressure on different parts of the NHS to make continuous powerful tool for levering-up quality. improvements. On a professional level, it is important In his opening remarks, the hon. Member for Blackpool to ensure that there is better recording and sharing of North and Cleveleys mentioned transition care. There information about services. must be significant improvement in that, because the My hon. Friend the Member for Southport and the transition from care in childhood to adult care is currently hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) talked about not good enough. We must ensure that we pick up and the lack of information about neurological services at learn from the work carried out by the national director local level. I can tell them that the Department has 21WH Epilepsy Services12 OCTOBER 2010 Epilepsy Services 22WH developed a reference data set for local commissioners because that would not do justice to the 5,000 respondents to use. That will give them a standard set of information to the consultation. The Department is in the process of to request from local providers about the different properly considering the responses to the consultation stages of care for someone with a neurological condition. and we shall give a considered and proper response. Reference has been made to a dearth of data. I can tell What we have done so far is set out clearly the direction hon. Members that there are data relating to the primary of travel and reform. I think that my hon. Friend has reasons for hospital admissions, readmission rates, average conflated two or three things in his test of accountability: lengths of stay, out-patients, first to review rates and professional accountability, accountability to the public programme spend for neurology through the payment and accountability to other organisations. We will make by result rates. All that information is on NHS Comparators, clear, when we set out the next steps to the reforms that which is part of the NHS website. It is an online tool we have proposed in the White Paper, precisely how that presents all that information in a way that is each part of the accountability conundrum that he accessible not just to professionals, but to the third posed is properly addressed. sector. One of the challenges that I pose to hon. Members and to organisations with an interest in this field is to Dr Pugh: I thank the Minister for that response. He make more use of NHS Comparators, because it is a has spoken about frameworks and about commissioning valuable tool for challenging commissioners and holding standards. I hope that he will go on to speak about what them to account and for ensuring that there is competitive happens when the frameworks are not in application localism—a real sense of comparing one area to another and when the commissioning standards are not observed, to ensure that we drive up standards and learn from for whatever reason. The only thing that I have heard the best. him say so far is, “We’re going to have a competitive local environment. People can vote with their feet.” Priti Patel: We have heard in the debate that epilepsy That is an awfully London-centric view, because in is a very subjective condition—it affects people in many many areas of the country, that is not a realistic option. different ways. We have also heard about the data challenges, and the Minister has kindly given us some Paul Burstow: I think that my hon. Friend perhaps insight into what comparators are out there. The fact is, needs to reflect a little further on the White Paper though, that if someone is a sufferer, is on their own proposals and what I have said in the debate, because and is in desperate need of care and access to information, what we are actually talking about is not competition in hearing about data comparisons is not necessarily of terms of people always choosing to go somewhere else, practical help. What practical measures exist for sufferers but in terms of the ability to see what somewhere else and for organisations that can give genuine support and looks like and make a comparison and to ask commissioners guidance to epilepsy sufferers? locally why they are not commissioning to the same standard. It is as much about that as about being able to Paul Burstow: The hon. Lady makes a very important move around the country, and certainly that is what we point. I was talking about using the data to improve are determined to deliver. standards, but we also need to ensure that, through NHS information prescriptions, we provide better and Mr Gyimah: Will the Minister give way? more timely information to people. Further work is also necessary in that area. Paul Burstow: Only one more time, because I want to A message that comes through strongly is that ensure that I have done full justice to the debate. commissioning is key to better epilepsy care. We believe that placing decision making much closer to the patient Mr Gyimah: I thank the Minister for his comments through general practice consortiums will unlock new on commissioning. In that context, I understand that opportunities and lead to more sensitive and responsive there will be 150 clinical standards against which decision making about care and treatment pathways. commissioning will be judged. It would be helpful for Some patient groups and some hon. Members in this people who suffer from epilepsy to know what weighting debate have expressed concern about the experience and and priority will be given to those clinical standards as knowledge of GP commissioners in designing epilepsy GPs deal with commissioning. services. Let me say a little more about that. The NHS commissioning board will have a vital role Paul Burstow: The 150 quality standards that NICE to play in supporting consortiums. It will set commissioning will be responsible for producing will make up a key guidelines based on clinically approved standards developed document that the NHS commissioning board will use by the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence. to draw up the clinical standards that it will use to drive In addition, the long-term conditions delivery support commissioning activity and hold GP consortiums to team will work closely with new directors of commissioning, account for delivery. They will be rewarded against the their commissioning boards and GP consortiums to outcomes that they achieve. That is an important part build skills and awareness. For example, the team has of the accountability mechanisms that will be in place. already developed a new commissioning pack, bringing Hon. Members on both sides of the Chamber talked together information that commissioners will need to about the need for early diagnosis and correct diagnosis. design good epilepsy services. Where epilepsy is suspected or where there are issues My hon. Friend the Member for Southport has asked about the management of the condition, patients should me, within about four days of the close of consultation be swiftly referred to specialists to confirm the diagnosis on the White Paper, to describe in full and complete and agree treatment options. I am very sympathetic to detail every aspect of the new accountability regime for the calls made today for more specialists and good the new system. I will not do that in the debate today, access to appropriate diagnostic equipment. 23WH Epilepsy Services12 OCTOBER 2010 Epilepsy Services 24WH

[Paul Burstow] and prevention—programme, whereby teams of clinicians are working together to promote innovation and drive A number of hon. Members rightly mentioned specialist out inefficiencies. epilepsy nurses, who are particularly vital to providing I shall give a couple of examples of where things are patients with a stable presence in their treatment and changing on the ground. In Dorset, there is a county-wide ongoing care. I pay tribute to their work in supporting service whereby a consultant neurologist and specialist and advising patients and helping them to manage their epilepsy nurses work with GPs and community teams condition effectively. However, it is not for me, as a across the region to give better support. In east Kent, Minister, to make decisions on how local NHS organisations networks of GPs with a special interest are joining spend their money. I hope that I have satisfied my hon. forces with specialist nurses and local neurology services Friend the Member for Southport, who thought that I to deliver community-based epilepsy care. Those are might say that. Centralised, top-down management is highly effective models and they are the type of models the problem, not the solution. The new system is quite that should be followed in the rest of the country; I clear. GP consortiums and NHS trusts will have outcomes certainly question why they are not. to meet for their patients. They must consider, in the Generic substitution was raised by the hon. Member light of their own circumstances, whether recruiting for Witham (Priti Patel), the hon. Member for Pontypridd more specialist staff or investing in new equipment is and others. As has been said, that is subject to consultation the best way to achieve those outcomes. at the moment and I cannot pre-announce the conclusions, However, on the question of research and whether we but I certainly share the concerns about consistency of need to test whether the evidence is robust, the evidence supply that the hon. Member for Blackpool North and is clear, and it is clear in the guidance from NICE itself, Cleveleys expressed. that specialist nurses are important for helping people Appointing a national clinical director is certainly living with epilepsy. The guidance is clear and should be something that we need to consider, particularly in the taken into account by those commissioning services. context of the implications of the reforms that the The long-term conditions delivery support team has White Paper proposed, and we will consider that carefully. developed a guide to help commissioners to make the Our proposals for the NHS will create the building strong business case for the very important investment blocks for real and positive change: a new transparency in specialist epilepsy nurses. and consistency of purpose, built around an outcomes I want to say something about innovation and efficiency, framework; a more responsive approach to commissioning because that is not just about how many consultants led by GPs and local government; and much greater and nurses are in a hospital; it is also about how well influence for patients through better information and they are used to support people in the community. The choice and control over their care. I look forward to best neurology departments are adapting, evolving and discussing these matters further with hon. Members improving their working practices to meet their populations’ through the all-party group and with the various needs in the context of financial constraints and the organisations that represent the interests of people with need to increase productivity. There is a particular role epilepsy. I also look forward to taking the White Paper for neuroscience networks in bringing specialist teams proposals forward, because I genuinely believe that they together with general practice and wider sources of will transform services from the bottom up, making a support. A lot of work is under way in relation to, for real difference to the quality of life of people with example, the QIPP—quality, innovation, productivity epilepsy. 25WH 12 OCTOBER 2010 Human Trafficking 26WH

Human Trafficking work in off-street prostitution in London, it is estimated that 80% are foreign nationals and many are forced into prostitution while they are still children. 11 am Wherever the victims of trafficking come from—whether Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab): within our country or beyond—they have one thing in I applied for this debate as a Back Bencher, but I have common: they suffer the worst human rights abuses at since been promoted to the Front Bench. In these the hands of their captors, keepers and pimps, and each unusual circumstances, I will be brief to let Back-Bench have an unequivocal, equal and universal right to be colleagues have time to debate the issue properly. However, helped and protected. I urge the Government not to be I want to set out why I called for the debate in the first complacent in tackling this egregious human rights place, even if I cannot do justice to my original speech. abuse. I am confident that colleagues will be more In opening the debate, I want to applaud in particular specific about what needs to be done and I look forward the work of Members on both sides of House in to listening to the debate. I hope to do all that I can to championing the fight against human trafficking. Members contribute to finding a solution to this problem in my from each of the main three political parties have deep new position on the Opposition Front Bench. concerns about that modern form of slavery and have kept the pressure on successive Governments to tackle 11.4 am this egregious human right abuse. Today is an opportunity Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): It is a great to continue to do that. In particular, we should recognise pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. the tireless work of the all-party group on human I start by congratulating the hon. Member for trafficking, as well as the inquiries and reports in the Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds) on leading previous Parliament of the Joint Committee on Human this debate. Unfortunately she has almost had her hands Rights and the Select Committee on Home Affairs. tied; she was allowed to speak for only a short time Over 200 years ago, the slave trade was abolished, but because she has just been appointed to the shadow another form of slavery has taken its place, one which is Cabinet. I congratulate her on that. It will be a loss to more clandestine, underground and hidden, but which the Back Benches, but may I say in all honesty that I is still insidious and brutal. It is one of the most virulent wish her very very many years—and I mean very very crimes in today’s society, one of the most prevalent many—in the shadow Cabinet? I would also like to forms of violence against women and a grave human welcome the Minister for Immigration, because in him rights abuse. There are thousands of vulnerable people, we have a Member of Parliament renowned for his care mostly women and children, being trafficked into and and humanity, and his understanding of the issue. I say within our country. They are suffering at the hands of that not only because it is true, but because I want him criminal gangs and pimps and enslaved by their keepers; to do things. I notice that in the Chamber today Members they are abused, raped, violently and sexually exploited, from all parties are present, which is a sign that this is a and forced into prostitution, slave labour and domestic cross-party concern. servitude. With our country’s pitiful rate of conviction At the outset I want to pay tribute to my predecessor, for trafficking, all too often such gangs and pimps enjoy Anthony Steen, formerly MP for Totnes. As the first impunity. There is still not enough being done to help chairman of the all-party group against trafficking of and to protect the victims of trafficking and to prevent women and children, he pioneered an approach to them from becoming victims in the first place. human trafficking, which I, as the new chairman, am The victims of trafficking are diverse. Some come happy to follow. Quite simply, he put human trafficking from beyond the European Union and some from or modern day slavery on the parliamentary map. I pay neighbouring countries at the eastern border of the EU, tribute to him and to his current work to establish the such as Moldova and Ukraine. Others come from countries human trafficking foundation, together with Clare Short further away, such as Nigeria and China. Victims also and my co-chairman of the all-party group, Baroness come from EU countries, and it is often overlooked that Elizabeth Butler-Sloss. women and children are being trafficked within our At the end of their 13-year term, the previous country. There are indications that the Olympics will Administration could be given onlyaBfortheir work increase the demand for prostitution in particular, and, on human trafficking. The acid test has to be, were as a result, there will be human trafficking into London there more apprehensions of traffickers year-by-year? from other parts of the United Kingdom and beyond The answer is no. Were the police filing more charges our borders. and did more convictions take place? The answer, sadly, Some victims of human trafficking are kidnapped is no. Instead, the number of victims rose and rose. from their families and some are sold by relatives. However, the previous Government did take two major Tragically, some come of their own accord having been initiatives, which were welcome. The two operations to deceived into thinking that they are being helped into deal with trafficking were Pentameter 1 and 2, and they the UK on the promise of a better life, only to find involved every police force in the land. They did not just when they get here that they are literally imprisoned, raid brothels, massage parlours and saunas, but went kept like slaves and forced into prostitution or forced into private homes—wherever they thought there were labour. They are traded by criminal gangs or pimps who traffickers. New initiatives such as those are urgently treat them like second-hand cars—the more profit, the needed, and the House would like to know what plans better for their keepers. Each sex trafficker is estimated the Government have. The Minister may not be able to to earn, on average, £500 to £1,000 per woman per say too much about that today and may be holding week. According to their evil and depraved view of the back for anti- slavery day next Monday, but we would world, the younger the girl, the better, as their value like to know if new announcements and initiatives are decreases the older they get. Of the 8,000 women who on the way. 27WH Human Trafficking12 OCTOBER 2010 Human Trafficking 28WH

[Mr Peter Bone] European directive. As someone with some reservations about the European Union, I do not really think that it New initiatives are needed because a number of is necessary to opt in, but we do need to do everything—and operations are being disbanded, such as the UK Human more—to help children, and the Prime Minister is more Trafficking Centre, a £2 million initiative in Sheffield than open to suggestions that will help us to achieve that was absorbed by the Serious Organised Crime that. Agency. In itself, that might not have been a problem Sadly, domestic slavery exists in Britain and is another but now SOCA is also being wound down. We need a concern. Some foreign embassies and their officials, Pentameter 3, so that traffickers realise that we are on who have diplomatic immunity, are, sadly, the worst their case and that this Government will be tougher abusers, and that should worry us all. Currently, the than the previous one. Is that planned? visa for someone who comes here to work for a diplomat We all know that it takes several years for new projects is very restrictive, and they can work only for the to be effective. What will happen to human trafficking embassy. They really should come in on a normal during the apparent lull in the prosecution and harassment domestic visa, which would allow them to go somewhere of traffickers? It took the previous Administration two else if they were being abused. years to implement the Council of Europe convention The issue was well illustrated in the exhibition that on action against human trafficking after they signed it, the now Prime Minister visited in the Committee corridor and it has never been fully implemented. Operation last March. The event was sponsored by the all-party Golf at the Met has been a remarkable and successful group, in conjunction with the Bromley Trust and the operation. Superintendent Bernie Gravett and Chief Tudor Trust. I pay special tribute to the work of Kalayaan Inspector Colin Carswell deserve the gratitude of the in Notting Hill Gate, which supports victims and campaigns whole House for their single-mindedness in tackling for the merger of diplomatic and ordinary domestic child trafficking. visas, 16,000 of which are issued each year. Such a step The traffickers will be breathing a sigh of relief that would allow diplomatic workers the same freedom as the superintendent’s team will be disbanded shortly, just domestic workers with annual domestic visas. as the human trafficking unit in the Met was disbanded Let me say a word about sex trafficking. We are nine months ago. Therefore, although the previous fortunate in London to have the POPPY project, which, Administration pressed the right buttons, the reality is linked with Eaves housing, offers more than 50 units of now coming home to roost: by the beginning of next accommodation to trafficked women. However, POPPY year there will be precious few specific operational units offers more than just accommodation; it offers social, in the UK specifically tackling human trafficking. Here psychological and medical support. Many girls have is a great opportunity for the coalition Government to been viciously treated for many years and need not just make some real changes and improvements to tackle a bed, but friends they can trust. That is what POPPY this appalling crime, which should have disappeared offers, and it does a professional, top-class job. when slavery was abolished 200 years ago, but is flourishing Although POPPY is technically allowed to accommodate worldwide. women only for a 42-day period of reflection while they What is needed is a more robust Crown Prosecution contemplate their future and whether they can assist the Service that does not make deals with defence counsels authorities, many women need a much longer period of on behalf of traffickers. We secure too few convictions, sanctuary. In that respect, the current situation is absurd, and those that we do secure are the result of plea although I do not have time to go into it today. Adults bargaining, resulting in a lesser crime being admitted who are trafficked into this country are looked after and a lesser sentence being given by Crown court judges, better than children, because while adults will go into many of whom need better training about the nature something such as the POPPY project, children will be and extent of human trafficking. lost in the local authority system—many of them will Our track record on dealing with foreign children, disappear and be re-trafficked. particularly from the far east, is lamentable. We need to POPPY not only provides a lifeline for 42 days, but ensure that the hundreds of children who are discovered forms many women’s futures, and it has developed its here each year, and who are acknowledged as trafficked experience and knowledge over the past decade. There by the national referral mechanism, are treated more is no one quite in POPPY’s league. Other shelter projects compassionately. Such children should have a guardian, around the country—in Bristol, Sheffield and Dover—do and I am told by a legal friend that we need a guardian valuable work, but they are small, have few facilities ad litem, which, as I understand it, means someone who and, sadly, no Government funding. Trafficking covers will act as their parent and look after them, particularly the country—not just the south-east and the cities. in the court situation. These children are both victims Caring for victims initially is important, but what happens and witnesses, and it is wrong to expect them to go to them afterwards? Who helps them? Who integrates through the system without help when we would not them back into society? How many return to their home necessarily expect an adult to do so. The European country and at what risk to them and their families? convention on action against trafficking in human beings What is the number of deportations? proposes such a guardian and so, too, does the new Human trafficking is the fastest growing business in European directive. the world. With increasing demand, the speed of growth Let me briefly say something about the directive. At is terrifying. Today, 27 million people worldwide are in the last Prime Minister’s questions, there was a lot of slavery, with 300,000 in Haiti alone. Trafficking is the argument between the Prime Minister and the now fastest growing illegal industry and, according to the deputy leader of the Labour party, the right hon. and United Nations, nets more than $32 billion a year—that learned Member for Camberwell and Peckham would almost help us to overcome our deficit. Hon. (Ms Harman), over whether we should opt into the Members should just think about that: criminal gangs 29WH Human Trafficking12 OCTOBER 2010 Human Trafficking 30WH make $32 billion out of trafficking. The punchline is Reynolds) both on securing this valuable debate and on that the growth of human trafficking is fuelled by the her promotion to the Front Bench. ease of access, anonymity and secrecy provided by the I chair the all-party group on runaway and missing internet, and that is why we do not see trafficking in our children and adults and I would like to raise some issues daily lives. That is the difference between slavery in on its behalf. The group is very concerned about what Wilberforce’s time, which was highly visible, and modern happens to vulnerable children and adults when they go slavery, which is underground and hidden.. missing. Many get hurt in some way. They can fall into My request is that our Government should take the drugs and crime or fall prey to abusive adults, and can lead and, while establishing a national border police also get caught up in trafficking and prostitution. Our force, which is a welcome move, do something specific aim is to try to keep young people as safe as possible. to help victims of trafficking. There should be more compassion for victims who arrive from all over the I want to take this opportunity to highlight and world, and that could involve a range of different praise the work of the UK Missing Persons Bureau, means. I doubt whether things will change overnight, which is part of the National Policing Improvement but I hope that compassion will increase. There are also Agency. The bureau does some excellent work and is the the victims from EU countries who travel here on legal UK national and international point of contact for all passports. How, I wonder, will the border police stop “missing” and “unidentified” cases. It is also the centre those people being trafficked? for information exchange and expertise on missing children and adults. The bureau has developed substantial knowledge For all those reasons, anti-slavery day is very important. on the issue of missing trafficked children and missing On the whole, people are just not aware of modern asylum-seeking children and works closely with police slavery; they do not realise that it exists around the forces across the country. It has a valuable database, comer from where they live. They cannot see it, so they which stores data on missing people and unidentified do not believe that it exists. What we do know is that the bodies. It is an essential tool for the monitoring of numbers overall are increasing. Sadly, people are recyclable. missing people as it provides a national picture. Unlike arms or drugs, which the criminal gang can trade only once, human beings can be recycled and sold Missing trafficked victims are part of that database. again. Incidents—particularly repeated incidents—of children As I said, there is interest across the House in the idea going missing are often an indicator of other problems that Britain should lead the way and be known throughout for the child and can be an indicator of trafficking. The the world for its effective and compassionate approach. nature of trafficking means that children are often In that respect, I am glad to see three Members from moved across force boundaries and therefore may be Northern Ireland, who represent the political divide reported missing in more than one force area. On some there. We must congratulate the Assembly on passing a occasions the same child may be reported missing to resolution last week making Northern Ireland numerous forces under different names. A national database of those incidents is the only way in which links between “a hostile place for human traffickers”. cases can be identified. Following the reported incidents That is what we need to do in the rest of the country. If of potentially trafficked children going missing from we make the United Kingdom a place traffickers do not local authority care in 2009, there has been understandable want to come to and where they do not believe that they concern about and interest in the measures that are can make money, we will stop trafficking. Congratulations being put in place to ensure that those vulnerable children to Northern Ireland on leading the way. are adequately safeguarded and that steps are taken to We are tolerating the closure of some of the most prevent them from going missing from care. innovative initiatives, and I wonder how that squares I want to draw to hon. Members’ attention two major with the Home Secretary’s statement in the House on operations that are currently going on to try to tackle 22 July, when she said: the trafficking of children. The first is called Operation “Tackling human trafficking is a coalition priority, and the Paladin, which is a Metropolitan police-led operation Government are currently considering how to improve our response involving immigration officers and social workers. It is to this terrible crime, including through the creation of a border police force.”—[Official Report, 22 July 2010; Vol. 514, c. 552-53.] based at Heathrow airport and the United Kingdom Border Agency asylum screening unit in Croydon. It Perhaps, on anti-slavery day, and in the spirit of the big also works at the St Pancras Eurostar terminal. The society, we could involve and support non-governmental team specialises in identifying and safeguarding vulnerable organisations such as ECPAT—End Child Prostitution, children who are suspected of being trafficked. It also Child Pornography and the Trafficking of Children— investigates specific trafficking and migration offences POPPY, Kalayaan and the Helen Bamber Foundation, as well as advising other police force child abuse investigation which have an enviable record, but which receive little teams on child trafficking issues. or no Government funding. Those are exactly the organisations that the Prime Minister has in mind when The second operation is Operation Newbridge, under he talks about the big society. The Minister may delight which Sussex police and West Sussex county council us all on anti-slavery day by announcing some real drew up an inter-agency protocol for managing potential progress on beginning to tackle the problem of human child trafficking victims taken into social services care. trafficking with a vengeance. That allows the sharing of information with a view to tracing young people from abroad who have disappeared from care. Since the operation started there has been a 11.19 am significant drop in the number of children suspected of Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab): I welcome you to the having been trafficked into Gatwick airport and a reduction Chair, Mr Streeter, and I congratulate my hon. Friend in the number of such children going missing from local the Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma authority care. 31WH Human Trafficking12 OCTOBER 2010 Human Trafficking 32WH

[Ann Coffey] The “Human Trafficking and Smuggling”legal guidance advises prosecutors who review cases in which a trafficked The two operations have two different approaches. victim may have committed a criminal offence while in Operation Paladin covers investigative and interview a situation of coercion that, where there is clear evidence support while Newbridge focuses on multi-agency work. that the suspect has a credible defence of duress, the The bureau believes that we should now merge the two case should be discontinued on evidential grounds. However, operations under one new name so that we have a there is information to suggest that that approach is not co-ordinated response using both types of operation being practised as robustly as it perhaps could be. For across the UK as a strong and effective example of example, a prosecutor can take such steps to discontinue inter-agency working to safeguard trafficking victims a case only if they have information from the police or and prevent further trafficking. That makes perfect other sources that the suspect might be a victim of sense to me and to the all-party group and I urge the trafficking; and that is relevant only where the criminality Minister to examine the proposal from the bureau as a is a direct consequence of the trafficking situation. way forward. I also urge the Minister to recognise, in In another case that has been brought to my attention any future organisation of police services, the valuable an unopposed appeal against conviction was brought work that the UK Missing Persons Bureau does in a before the court, and was granted by Mr. Justice Cox on number of areas, and to safeguard that valuable resource. 26 June 2008. That is admittedly some time ago, but the 11.24 am case was brought to me by the POPPY project, which has already been referred to with applause during the Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): I congratulate the debate. On 17 March 2008 the appellant had pleaded hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma guilty at Canterbury Crown court to an offence of using Reynolds) on securing this timely and important debate a false identity card with the intention of using it as her on the trafficking of human beings, and forced prostitution. own and was sentenced to eight months imprisonment, I can see that it is an issue that she cares about deeply, less 16 days spent on remand. Research by the POPPY and I share that with her. We need to recognise the fact project subsequently showed that the woman was the that human trafficking, and, by extension, the exploitation victim of trafficking into England for prostitution. I of vulnerable women and children through prostitution, believe that the case may be one among many, but one is happens in the UK, and is something we should continue enough to require me, and the Minister, to look into the to fight. I am please that the coalition Government have matter, and find out whether our current processes are agreed to tackle human trafficking as a priority. sufficiently robust to protect such victims—for indeed I also want to highlight the fact that the issue could they are victims, not offenders, and should be treated affect any of our constituencies. Early last year, as part as such. of the nationwide Operation Pentameter, which my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) 11.29 am referred to, and which was aimed at tackling human David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I welcome you trafficking and raising awareness of modern-day slavery, to the Chair, Mr Streeter. I congratulate the hon. Member the Cheshire police—who oversee my constituency among for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds) on others—arrested a woman in a constituency near mine initiating this important debate on human trafficking, who had trafficked human beings for sexual exploitation. which is a particularly brutal form of organised crime. That woman had managed brothels and trafficked women, The hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) and was also in possession of drugs. She was given a reminds us that next Monday is anti-slavery day. Mankind custodial sentence, and rightly so. has been guilty of many atrocities and crimes down the We also know that what is happening is bigger than centuries, but I believe that one of the biggest travesties just a couple of cases. According to research published is slavery. Nothing is more degrading or humiliating for in August for the Association of Chief Police Officers, individuals than to have to live such lives. Human there are at least 2,600 women in prostitution who have trafficking is a modern form of slavery, victims often been trafficked into the UK, and at least 9,200 who are being forced to work in the illegal sex industry. considered to be vulnerable, whose situation is more As has been mentioned, this obscene trade was recently complicated and who might be considered to have been debated by the Northern Ireland Assembly. One thing trafficked within the UK, or who are controlled in some that featured in that debate was the fact that, in many other way, such as through drug dependency. Those are areas, people have suspicions about particular dwellings large and distressing numbers and they do not include or establishments that they suspect are being used as victims of trafficking and forced labour. illegal brothels. They report their suspicions to the As I have said, I am pleased that the coalition is authorities, but little action seems to be taken. That is a committed to tackling human trafficking as a priority. major concern. All parties in the Northern Ireland However, without wanting to go into the reasons for the Assembly endorsed the proposal that Northern Ireland Government’s decision to opt out of the EU directive should be an unwelcome place for traffickers, but we on human trafficking, I want to ask the Minister to need more than that. Although such matters are passed consider a concern that was put to me in a letter, which I by our legislative chambers, we need to see action—and am sure many colleagues have received, from a social a large number of convictions. policy charity that works with non-governmental organisations on the ground to help women exit prostitution. Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Over the Its concern is that victims of trafficking who have years countless initiatives have been taken by various undergone some of the most severe human degradation, Governments, but initiatives of themselves are not sufficient. often having been raped or forced to take drugs, may Surely the courts should allow the sentence to fit the still face the trauma of prosecution. That needs to crime. We must have sentencing that will stop this be reviewed. terrible and despicable abuse. 33WH Human Trafficking12 OCTOBER 2010 Human Trafficking 34WH

David Simpson: I agree with my hon. Friend the 11.37 pm Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea). He is absolutely right. The judiciary has a lot to answer for. The police Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): It continually brought individuals before the Craigavon is a pleasure, Mr Streeter, to see you in the Chair courts in my constituency, but I remember that one this morning. I congratulate the hon. Member for judge was nicknamed Father Christmas because every Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds) on securing time those guys were brought before the courts they this important debate. were let off. The onus is on the legal establishment to I echo what the hon. Member for Wellingborough convict. I would be interested to know whether other (Mr Bone) said about the excellent work done on human hon. Members find the same situation in their constituencies trafficking by the now retired Member for Totnes, as I and other Northern Ireland Members do. Sir Anthony Steen. He was, it will be agreed, a colourful This particularly vile trade often involves forced sexual figure—he was often frank and occasionally unguarded slavery, predominantly of women but also of men—and, in his comments—but he deserves to be remembered for indeed, of children—into a nightmare world. There his excellent work on raising the profile of the matter they are treated as commodities to be traded and sold in and for establishing the Human Trafficking Foundation. order to gratify people willing to pay so that they can I also support what the hon. Gentleman said about the prey upon them. need for better training for officers and others engaged in dealing with the problem, and the need for guardians Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): I am grateful to support children through the unpleasant and doubtless to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. When the hon. un-nerving process of going through the courts. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) mentioned the We know that human trafficking is a big problem, but Northern Ireland Assembly initiative to make Northern it is fair to say that the scale of it is a little hard to Ireland a trafficking-free zone my heart leapt with joy. determine. The United Nations estimates that 70,000 However, I wonder what specifically is being done. Is new victims arrive in Europe each year and stay a there a new law? Is there a law to prevent demand? couple of years; that compares with a total population Thirty years ago, Ken Livingstone declared London to working in the sex industry of something in the order of be a nuclear-free zone; it is true that no nuclear bombs 140,000. The market as a whole is said to be worth have fallen on London since then. Without being trite, ¤2.4 billion a year. A substantial amount of money is what is the Assembly’s legal proposal? being spent on this horrific trade—or service, if I can put it that way. The Association of Chief Police Officers David Simpson: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. estimates that an estimated 30,000 sex workers in the Indeed, I have made the same point. Whether the matter UK have been trafficked into the country, coming is being debated here or in the main Chamber or in any principally from China, Thailand and other parts of of the regional assemblies, it may get all-party approval south-east Asia, and from eastern Europe. but it does not necessarily achieve anything. The Northern That report was fairly controversial in that it extrapolated Ireland Assembly has taken the first step to bringing the from interviews with women who were working in brothels matter to a final conclusion. We need to move quickly. in London a national figure of 2,600 victims of sex People are persuaded by these unscrupulous individuals trafficking. All one can know for certain is that those that they will be helped to obtain a better life, but we women would have been under huge pressure not to know that the reality proves to be very different. They confirm the way in which they had arrived in the UK, are tortured, trapped and treated as little more than which makes it difficult to establish how many victims pieces of meat. The hon. Member for Wellingborough there are other than it is a very large number. What is brought to our attention debates in this Chamber on certain, however, is the number of convictions. Since the domestic slavery, which is another travesty, which arises Sexual Offences Act 2003 came into force in January through diplomatic immunity or other loopholes. It is a 2004, 46 men and women have been convicted and disgrace and should not be allowed. jailed for transporting willing sex workers—I am sure As I said earlier, this is a modern form of slavery. It that we could argue about what constitutes a willing sex happens on a large scale. The United Kingdom Human worker and discuss the economic pressure that they Trafficking Centre reports that between April and December may have been under to come willingly to the UK for 2009, 527 potential victims of trafficking of 61 nationalities such a purpose—and 59 people have been convicted of were referred to the national referral mechanism. However, transporting women who were forced to work in the sex that covers only what is known; I fear that it happens on industry. What is also clear is the excellent work that the a much larger scale than many imagine. POPPY project is doing and the number of women that it has been able to help. In the past six and a half years, I am also concerned that good police work does not it has helped and supported around 500 women. always lead to successful prosecutions, and I have mentioned the role of the judiciary in that respect. However, I Hon. Members who have local newspapers—as Members congratulate the police on the successes that have resulted of Parliament, we all follow our local newspapers from the recent UK-wide Operation Apsis. We need carefully—will be aware that the newspaper group, many more such successes. I emphasise that although Newsquest, has been actively trying to ensure that no we might debate such an horrific way of life, we need to local papers carry ads publicising such services, and I see those people brought before the courts and given the commend such work. sentence that goes with the crime. What makes this issue even harder to resolve is the conflict that exists between trying to establish whether Mr Gary Streeter (in the Chair): Order. I remind the someone has been trafficked here or whether they have House that wind-ups will begin at 12.10 pm. Four come here of their own volition. Hon. Members will Members seek to catch my eye. First, I call Tom Brake. be familiar with the research that was published by 35WH Human Trafficking12 OCTOBER 2010 Human Trafficking 36WH

[Tom Brake] Tom Brake: I have one more sentence, so I will not give way. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will get another Dr. Nick Mai of London Metropolitan university—again, opportunity to speak. I just wanted to conclude my we have to read between the lines of the responses that remarks by saying that we have an anti-slavery debate were given—in which he conducted detailed interviews on Monday and a debate on the issue on Thursday. with 100 migrant sex workers in the UK. He astonishingly Regrettably, it is clear that slavery is alive and well in states that for the majority of people, working in the our society today and it is something that all parties industry was a way to avoid the exploitative working here this morning want to address, and I certainly want conditions that they had experienced in their previous to play a role in doing that. non-sexual jobs. I take that with a pinch of salt because such people are working in an industry that is illegal and on the margins, and their status in the country is 11.47 am uncertain. The suggestion that they come here to work Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): in such an industry because it provides better working I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for conditions than the ones that they might have experienced Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds) on securing before requires some scrutiny, but that is what his this very important debate. There is no doubt that a research apparently found. That makes it harder for modern day slavery exists in many forms. I liked most of authorities such as the UK Border Agency to err on the the speech of the hon. Member for Wellingborough side of thinking that people have made a conscious (Mr Bone) but I was rather disappointed by his limited choice to come to the UK for this purpose rather than UK-centric views and ambitions. He seems to feel that erring on the side of assuming that people have been we can stop human trafficking by throwing up gates trafficked, which is what we want. Such an attitude is around the UK. However, it is not a UK phenomenon, also adopted in relation to children who are, all too but a worldwide one. There is no doubt that trafficking often, treated as criminals rather than people who have can be for sexual exploitation. In many cases, it exists fallen foul of trafficking. down our street. In the Falkirk and West Lothian areas Members will be familiar with the concerns expressed of my constituency, brothels have been broken up and by the anti-trafficking monitoring group about trafficked trafficked women have been found. At Prime Minister’s children who have gone into care and subsequently questions in September, the deputy leader of the Labour gone missing. The review into 390 cases of suspected party raised a scandalous case in London in which trafficked victims handled by the UK authorities gave some of the organisers were Iranian who lived in London. some quite alarming statistics about how many of those They were not necessarily UK citizens, but people who victims subsequently disappeared. were habitually in the UK. If they had not been captured In theory, the national referral mechanism, to which in the UK, we would not have been able to pursue them other hon. Members have referred, allows the police outside the country. Under the present law, if they had and social workers to refer suspected cases to the appropriate gone to any other EU country, we would not have authorities, but again there is legitimate concern that had the right to pursue them. the people who are being referred are being treated as part of an immigration issue rather than as a crime Mr Bone: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? issue, or as victims of trafficking who require support. If the police are succeeding in identifying people who Michael Connarty: I will continue for a while, but the are responsible for human trafficking, it is not being hon. Gentleman can intervene later. That is the problem followed through in terms of the number of convictions. that we need to address. Many people are trafficked not For example, only five people were convicted of human just for sexual exploitation, but for domestic exploitation. trafficking for sexual exploitation in the first six months They think that they are coming here for good, well-paid of this year compared with a figure in the low 30s in jobs, and they end up being handed over as domestic previous years. Therefore, we are not seeing many successful servants. They are paid a low wage, trapped in the prosecutions. house, have their passport taken off them, and told that Will the Minister give us an update—I know that this if they go out they will be reported and sent back to is not his brief—on what the Crown Prosecution Service wherever they have come from. There are thousands of is doing to improve its prosecution policy in relation to people in this city who are living like that. We had the these cases, and does he believe that it will be successful? scandalous case of the Saudi Arabian prince who murdered a domestic slave in his household in London, and that In conclusion, I will refer to the UK opt out of the happens in large homes in this city. It is a scandal and EU directive, which was clearly a controversial decision something that we should be worried about. by the coalition. The coalition has been criticised by many campaigning groups for not signing up to the Many other people are in poverty-wage jobs. For directive, and I must say that I have some sympathy example, someone came to see me recently who, over with the concerns that have been expressed. I know that nine and a half years, had basically been moved from the Government will consider the impact of the directive, Chinese restaurant to Chinese restaurant around the and I strongly hope that if they decide that the directive UK. They were told that if they ever went to see anyone, will help to address the issue of human trafficking, they they would be exposed and sent back home to China will not be put off adopting it simply because it is where, for various reasons, they do not want to return. prefixed with the word “EU”. If the directive is effective They came to see me because I had spoken at the annual at tackling the issue, it is incumbent on us as a Government general meeting of an organisation that deals with such to support it. people in Glasgow, which of course is the only city in Scotland that takes people who are asylum seekers who Mr Bone: Will my hon. Friend give way on that have been dispersed from London. So human trafficking point? is a very big trade that, in fact, has sexual exploitation 37WH Human Trafficking12 OCTOBER 2010 Human Trafficking 38WH at one end, but, as has already been said, that sexual Michael Connarty: That is a wonderful ambition and exploitation is not necessarily the biggest part of the if that is the case then I will now give the hon. Gentleman trade. some reasons why we should do what is necessary now Many people are trafficked with the promise of a and take the first step by signing up to that directive. good job or a better life. When I spoke at the AGM that During Prime Minister’s questions on 15 September, I just referred to, a young man also spoke who had been when the issue of human trafficking was raised, the here in the UK for 10 years. He was the last remaining Prime Minister invited me to write to him and I wrote member of his family, having escaped from a violent to him, to explain why the powers that we have at the situation in Africa. He was told that he was going to a moment are not good enough. What powers do we better life and was dumped in Glasgow. Quite frankly, have? We have the Sexual Offences Act 2003; that is the being dumped in Glasgow would be a frightening experience power that we have to deal with these matters. We have for some English people, on the basis that they cannot heard from the hon. Member for Carshalton and always understand the language. [Laughter.] That young Wallington (Tom Brake), a Liberal Member, that there man was dumped in Glasgow and was totally impoverished. have been 46 convictions under the 2003 Act of people Thank goodness that there was an organisation in Glasgow, who were willingly trafficked, which is not a great called Positive Action in Housing, which deals with record. such people. It has now been going for 15 years and I Under section 57 of the 2003 Act, basically we can pay tribute to Robina Qureshi, its director and the take action against anyone who is outside the UK and person who set it up. It rescues people from exactly that trafficking people into the UK, if they are UK citizens. kind of domestic slavery and exploitation, whereby Under sections 58 and 59 of the Act, anyone who is in people pay to be trafficked. Indeed, sometimes their the UK and planning to traffic people out of the UK families gather large amounts of money to pay for them can also be taken to court. The other actions that can be to be sent through human trafficking routes run by taken, regarding brothels and all the rest of it, are gangs in Europe and elsewhere in order to get a better contained within that same Act. But those three sections— life, only for them to end up being dumped on the 57, 58 and 59—are the sections that cover what I believe streets of the UK or other EU countries. So it is a much is identified as being the “outside” problem of what is bigger issue that we are talking about. There are two happening outside the UK. parts to the issue—one is about people trafficking and the other is about enforced prostitution—and we must What does the EU directive bring, in terms of the focus on both parts. powers that we require? It actually requires member states to assert jurisdiction on their own nationals. In The reference to Anthony Steen was very timeous. He other words, under the directive the UK could and was the former MP for Totnes and a member of the should prosecute any UK national involved in human European Scrutiny Committee. He did an excellent job trafficking anywhere in the EU. It also gives the power, in setting up and becoming the chairman of the all-party but not necessarily the obligation, for member states to group on human trafficking and then in setting up and take jurisdiction—that is, the power of prosecution—of chairing the Human Trafficking Foundation. a habitual resident in the UK who commits these crimes I think that the way that Anthony Steen worked was a anywhere in the world. So, if they go anywhere in the key to how we should go on as a Government, regardless UK, we can pursue them. of which party is in power. He used his travels as part of The EU directive also gives a power regarding a the European Scrutiny Committee to go round Europe victim who was a UK national or a habitual resident in trying to convince every Parliament in Europe to have the UK who was trafficked anywhere in the EU. In fact, an all-party group against human trafficking. I am that gives the UK the power to protect a young woman sorry, but we cannot set up a ring around Northern who is working around the EU. There are now many Ireland, Scotland, Wales or the UK as a whole—it young women who work around the EU, who do not cannot be done. We have to work with everyone across necessarily live in the UK any longer, but who end up all the countries involved. getting trafficked by, for example, a Bulgarian gang. Do No doubt Anthony Steen aspires to do things beyond we really think that the Bulgarian legal system will the EU, but when I talked to him he said that basically it protect that young woman? However, the British jurisdiction was the countries that were used as transit countries, or given under the EU directive would give us the power to the countries of departure, that had to be focused on. It pursue that gang. was the countries where the criminal organisations exist; I want to end by saying that I want to hear why the those organisations do not necessarily exist in the countries Government are not signing up to the EU directive. Let that were targeted for trafficking people into. It was not me be quite frank. If Madeleine McCann had been an just the reception countries, such as the UK, that should adult—a young woman—and had been trafficked out be focused on. Therefore, it was important to Anthony of Portugal to somewhere else by someone who was not Steen that the UK Government should sign up to and a UK citizen, we would have no jurisdiction. Under the opt into the EU directive on human trafficking because directive, we would have that jurisdiction, so why are that directive is necessary, so that we can have bigger the Government not signing up to it? and more useful powers than we have at the moment. Mr Bone: The hon. Gentleman is making a very 11.55 am powerful speech. Regarding the opt-in to the EU directive, Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): Thank you I just wanted to say that what concerns me as chairman very much, Mr Streeter, for calling me. I offer my of the all-party group is that, if we opt in, we are saying, congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for “That’s it”. I do not think that the EU directive goes far Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds), both enough and I do not want signing up to it to be an on securing this debate and on her promotion to the excuse for not doing more. Front Bench. 39WH Human Trafficking12 OCTOBER 2010 Human Trafficking 40WH

[Mr Denis MacShane] “Sex trafficking is nothing more than modern-day slavery. This is women being exploited, degraded and subjected to horrific I do not disagree with much of what has been said. I risks solely for the gratification and economic greed of others. I am here simply to assert that we can do something. am therefore stunned to learn that the Government are ‘opting out’ of an EU directive designed to tackle sex trafficking. Generally, Wilberforce should be living at this hour. We have I am no great supporter of European directives” slavery, but it is not known. Slavery in the late 18th century was not much known about; it was incorporated —that might incorporate the views of the hon. Members into people’s conservative traditional thinking. It has for the hon. Member for Wellingborough and for Congleton required strong individuals such as Sir Anthony Steen, (Fiona Bruce)— who is no longer with us in this House, and other “but this seems to be a common-sense directive designed to colleagues to take up the campaign against it. co-ordinate European efforts to combat the trade in sex slaves.” I must place on record my immense disappointment The Archbishop of York is right, and I deeply regret the that one specific measure that was put to the new fact that the Liberal Democrat spokesman in this debate Government shortly after the coalition was formed— has not been able to back him fully and wholeheartedly. namely, a very sensible and practical EU directive—has On the whole, those who lie down with Eurosceptic been spurned. As we honour William Wilberforce, I Tories get up with opt-outs. cannot honour his biographer, the Secretary of State We will keep pressing the Government on the issue. It for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs. He made a is simply not good enough to say, as the Prime Minister most eloquent speech at the Upper Waiting Hall exhibition said to the then Leader of the Opposition on 15 September, that the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) that the directive mentioned, yet as the steward of our European policy he is not prepared to put his ministerial tick where his “does not go any further than the law that we have already passed. mouth was just a few months ago. We have put everything that is in the directive in place.”—[Official Report, 15 September 2010; Vol. 515, c. 873.] I am happy to say that the Prime Minister misled the [MRS ANNE MAIN in the Chair] House inadvertently, but he did mislead the House, and I want to make one small point. The Government that cannot stand. It is clear to anyone who has read the and some hon. Members have referred to a report directive, as I have, that the UK is not in compliance. published in August by the Association of Chief Police Article 2 deals with offences concerning trafficking in Officers that talked about 2,600 prostituted sex slaves. I human beings. According to CARE, a Christian dislike the term “sex worker”—it is an ideological loading. organisation working on the issue, the UK Government The vast majority of women and girls involved this area are only semi-compliant. Article 7 deals with the non- are there because of debt or drugs; they are under the prosecution or non-application of penalties to the victim, coerced control of their pimps. The image of the “happy a point made strongly by other hon. Members. Again, hooker”sex worker—the “Belle de Jour”sex worker—might the UK is only semi-compliant. There is no requirement apply to a tiny, tiny minority, but this is one of the most in UK law not to prosecute victims, even though the disgusting forms of exploitation in our society, whereby Council of Europe convention explicitly states that a young girl or woman is obliged to take 10 or 12 penises there should be. into her orifices each day in order to make money for her pimps and traffickers. So we should have no more As a delegate to the Council of Europe, I was part of nonsense about “sex workers”—these are prostituted a campaign to get the UK first to sign and then to ratify women who are suffering horribly. the convention. The Home Office was utterly resistant, as it is today, to the EU directive. It required the Prime However, regarding that figure of 2,600 prostituted Minister’s personal intervention to get the convention sex slaves that is quoted in the ACPO report, that report signed and ratified, but we are not yet applying its was shredded almost before it was published by the articles fully. We are certainly not applying the proposed Eaves organisation and other investigators, who noted articles of the EU directive. that it was based on police officers in full uniform going into massage parlours and other brothels and, within Article 8 of the EU directive deals with investigation sight of the pimps and other controllers of these women and prosecution. We are not compliant. No specific and girls, saying, “Excuse me, love, are you trafficked?” legislation addresses any of the requirements. The Crown and then coming up with that figure of 2,600. It is Prosecution Service is currently consulting on its policy nonsense, given the world statistics about the level of on prosecuting cases of human trafficking. Frankly, if sex slave trafficking, which are quite reliable. Even if the CPS had been around at the beginning of the Britain has a smaller share of that trade than other 19th century, it would have taken until the 20th century countries, we are still certainly talking about a five-figure to finish its consultation. Parliament itself must get to number of prostituted sex slaves, at the very least. grips with the issue. There is an important mechanism to deal with this The UK is only semi-compliant with the directive’s problem of sex slavery, which is tackling the demand article on assistance and support for victims of trafficking side. I will not enter into that debate today; there is in human beings. On the general provision of support some division across the House about it. Nevertheless, for child victims, one of the worst aspects of sex slave until we put the responsibility on the men who pay for trafficking, the UK is, again, only semi-compliant. sex with coerced and trafficked women, I am afraid that the hope that we will find every pimp and put him behind bars is not a very realistic one. Mr Bone: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? I pray in aid the Archbishop of York, Dr John Sentamu, who wrote a marvellous article in the Yorkshire Mr MacShane: I really do not have time. Forgive me; Post about a month ago saying: this is a short debate. 41WH Human Trafficking12 OCTOBER 2010 Human Trafficking 42WH

On one important measure in the directive—that danger that people will say that they are already doing there should be national rapporteurs on the issue—the enough. As we have heard from other hon. Members, UK is wholly non-compliant. The Prime Minister misled particularly the right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr the House on 15 September. I hope that the Minister is MacShane), it is not the case that the UK is doing willing to accept that and move forward. everything required in the EU directive within its various The UK Human Trafficking Centre is being abolished. jurisdictions. There will be no Operation Pentameter 3, which the Opting into the EU directive would give us much hon. Member for Wellingborough rightly demanded. needed greater reach against human trafficking and its We are shutting down the initial steps taken by the last perpetrators and users. More action is needed on both Government, who were working against “Whitehall the control and demand sides. I know that other hon. knows best” syndrome and much of the mass media. Members do not want to go too far into that debate Papers such as The Guardian and shows such as today, but it is one issue that featured in the recent “Newsnight” have constantly downplayed the number debate in the Northern Ireland Assembly. of sex slaves and trafficked and prostituted women in We must recognise that we need to act not only at EU our country. It is up to this House alone to persuade the and the wider international level, as hon. Members have Government. said, but within these islands. We must recognise that I make no protest against the Minister who is replying there is a corrupt carousel of seedy exploitation that to this debate—he is a sincere and serious Minister on uses various jurisdictional anomalies within these islands. this subject—but he has got it wrong. It is not just about We see it happening not just between Northern Ireland UK law versus Brussels—the Foreign Secretary, in his and the south, where there are activities in the border speech to the Conservative party conference in Birmingham, areas. As was mentioned in the Assembly debate, a was pandering to the latent Euroscepticism of his Back victim uncovered recently in Stranraer was on her way Benchers—but about sending a signal to every other to Northern Ireland, not to be exploited there but EU member state that Britain is part of the joint because that was her transit route to the south. We European campaign. It is also about sending a signal know from talking to the Police Service of Northern elsewhere in the world that we are prepared to change Ireland and people in Women’s Aid who work on such our law to conform fully to the EU directives, as have all issues in the north and south that people border-hop the other EU member states that have signed up, and not just within the island of Ireland but between islands take the campaign forward internationally. in this country. I know that the Minister will have to read out his I hope that the Minister will consider taking a strong brief today, but I say to him that the campaign will go initiative at the level of the British-Irish Council as well on until we are prepared to support the victims of sex as in Europe. There are eight jurisdictions within these slave trafficking instead of saying, by opting out of the islands. Not all of them have a role in prosecution and EU directive, that the pimps and traffickers have one or pursuit, but many can play a role in supporting victims two people on their side in Whitehall. and those who assist them. Action at the British-Irish Council level, as well as at the EU level, would show Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Before I call the next that the various Chambers around these islands that are speaker, I remind hon. Members that I will start calling passing resolutions want such resolve to add up to the Front-Bench speakers to respond at 10 past 12. effective action against this very cruel, criminal trade.

12.5 pm 12.9 pm Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): It is a privilege to Diana R. Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): serve under you, Mrs Main. I congratulate the hon. It is a privilege to serve under your chairmanship today, Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds) Mrs Main. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member on securing this important debate and on her promotion for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds) on to the Front Bench. I join other hon. Members in securing this important debate and on making a strong commending the long good work of Sir Anthony Steen, opening statement about why she secured it. I also the former Member for Totnes, on this issue. I also congratulate her on her new role on the Front Bench; I commend his successor to the chair of the all-party wish her every success with it. group on human trafficking, the hon. Member for The contributions of hon. Members from all parties Wellingborough (Mr Bone), who is an able and active have clearly shown that there is cross-party support on campaigner on the issue at many levels. the issue and that there is a resolve across all parties to Unfortunately, I differ with the hon. Member for tackle it. I pay tribute to all of this morning’s contributions, Wellingborough on the EU directive and the question including that of my hon. Friend the Member for of the opt-out. I note that he said in an intervention Stockport (Ann Coffey) on the role she plays in the that he did not object to the directive in principle but all-party group on runaway and missing children and was concerned that if we opt in, we will say that that is adults. She considered the issue of runaway children enough. Reference was made earlier to the resolution and how that impacts on the matter. recently passed in the Northern Ireland Assembly. There I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for is a serious danger that if we opt in, we may adopt Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty), who resolutions that become a badge for the system without mentioned important transnational issues, and my right being a shield for the citizen, so that caution was well hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane), stated. However, it applies equally to the Government, who, as usual, made a compelling case for why we whose line is “We don’t need to opt in because we’re should sign up to the EU directive on human trafficking. doing everything it requires anyway.” Surely there is a The hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) made 43WH Human Trafficking12 OCTOBER 2010 Human Trafficking 44WH

[Diana R. Johnson] came up with the figure of 2,600 for the number of trafficked victims, and I know that my right hon. Friend a well informed and strong case for why the issue needs the Member for Rotherham has expressed strong views to be high up on the agenda. The hon. Members for about that particular figure. Congleton (Fiona Bruce), for Upper Bann (David The absence of a clear estimate of the numbers Simpson), for Foyle (Mark Durkan) and for Carshalton involved was a concern of the Home Affairs Committee, and Wallington (Tom Brake) also spoke eloquently. and the previous Labour Government offered to do This is my first opportunity to speak as a member of some work to get a more reliable figure. I ask the the shadow Home Affairs team. I was delighted to be Minister whether that exercise is still under way. Do the given this debate to answer for the Opposition because I Government recognise not only that it would be helpful am the Member of Parliament for Kingston upon Hull to have a clear definition, but that, if we knew the North. One of Hull’s famous sons is William Wilberforce, numbers involved, that would allow a comparison to be who played an important part in starting the debate on made across the EU ? the slave trade so many years ago, so I am particularly Article 14 of the draft directive refers to the protection pleased to have the opportunity to speak on this matter of children who are victims and calls for judicial authorities today. to appoint a special representative for child victims. The I also pay tribute to Anthony Steen, the former UK does not comply with that. The hon. Member for Member of Parliament for Totnes. When he contributed Wellingborough raised that issue and if we were to to debates on the issue, he would invariably pay tribute accept the directive and opt in, that would help his to the previous Government’s role in making sure that position. the matter was properly addressed. Ministers in the Article 9 of the directive concerns extraterritorial previous Labour Government always paid tribute to jurisdiction. Criminals and victims may be in different Anthony Steen and the role he played in ensuring that countries at the time of the investigation—I think my the issues of slavery and trafficking were considered hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk fully and properly by the House. mentioned this issue—and article 9 would help British I was interested to hear that it was mooted at one authorities to protect not only their own citizens, but point that Anthony Steen should be the adviser on other EU citizens. The position seems to be confused. human trafficking to the then Leader of the Opposition, Do we comply or do we not comply? Even if we reach now the Prime Minister. I wondered whether Anthony the bar and do comply, surely the point is to work with Steen’s advice had been sought on the EU directive and other countries—not only to reach the bar but to go what he might say to the Prime Minister about the beyond it, as the hon. Member for Wellingborough Government’s stated positions on the directive. I use the mentioned. word “positions” because the Government’s positions ECPAT—End Child Prostitution, Child Pornography are very unclear. The Home Secretary has said that and the Trafficking of Children for Sexual Purposes— signing up to a particular directive had to be in the rightly says interests of the UK and, of course, we would all agree “Without international cooperation the Government will lose with that. However, she went to say that the UK is the battle with the traffickers. By choosing not to opt in to the already achieving much of what is contained in the directive the Government is failing in its efforts to combat this draft EU directive. A Home Office statement went transnational crime.” further and stated that signing up would make very The Government say that they are working to shape the little difference to the way in which the UK tackles the EU directive. We have experience in the United Kingdom problem and that there would be no operational benefits. of working on projects such as Operation Golf, where On the other hand, the Prime Minister offered to go we led from the front. Having helped to shape the final away and think again about the directive and said that document, why would we wish to step back from the there would be opportunities to opt in at any time. directive? Is it because it is European? Is it because there The Minister’s first job this afternoon is to clear up is a hangover from the Lisbon treaty deliberations? Are the confusion. Is the directive in or is it out? If it is a the Government over-sensitive to criticisms on Conservative maybe, how much of a maybe is it, and what will swing websites that they are giving away powers faster than the argument either way? The Government say that the the previous Labour Government? Is it because it would UK already complies with most of what is required cost money? If that is the case, how much do the Home under the draft EU directive but, as we have heard from Office think it will cost? ECPAT says costs would be various hon. Members today, there are key areas with minimal. Is that true? Has a cost-benefit analysis been which we do not comply. For example, paragraph 5 of done? the explanatory memorandum extends the definition of The Government are in danger of getting this wrong trafficking and inherent within that is recognition that and of compounding a catalogue of errors of poor exploitation takes many forms and that one form of judgment. There has been confusion over anonymity exploitation, such as labour exploitation, often leads to for rape victims and over domestic violence protection another, such as sexual exploitation. orders, which were designed to protect victims, not A clearer definition would help with the following perpetrators. In addition, the multi-agency risk assessment matter. The debate about human trafficking has been conferences are now under review, as is the use of dogged by the absence of clear estimates of the numbers independent domestic violence advisers. Chillingly, there involved, and many hon. Members have raised that this has also been the fallout that led to the resignation of morning. In 2003, the Home Office estimated the number Jim Gamble as chief executive of the Child Exploitation of victims to be more than 4,000 but, in 2008-09, the and Online Protection Centre, who I understand is Select Committee on Home Affairs claimed there were giving evidence this morning to the Home Affairs more than 5,000. The Association of Chief Police Officers Committee. I want to put on the record the appreciation 45WH Human Trafficking12 OCTOBER 2010 Human Trafficking 46WH that I think exists across the House for the invaluable There is no difference between any of us on this issue: work that he and his team did in protecting children. human trafficking and forced prostitution are appalling We support his view that to do its job even more crimes in which people are treated as commodities and effectively, CEOP needs more, not less independence. exploited for profit. The Government take a comprehensive When Sara Payne, Shy Keenan and Fiona Crook say approach, combining a determination to tackle the that what has happened is a devastating blow for UK criminals behind the trade with a commitment to support child protection, we ought to listen, because if we do victims. That approach provides the framework with not, the Government will be in danger of throwing which we can ensure the necessary joined-up activities, away in five months progress that was built up over five through work across Government with law enforcement years with regard to child victims. The Government agencies and in conjunction with the voluntary sector, need to listen to the concerns rightly raised today about which plays such an important role in the care of the EU directive on human trafficking. I look forward victims, as many Members have said. We need to take to hearing the Minister clarify exactly what the further strides towards tackling that menace. I am grateful Government’s position is on that directive—do we comply to the hon. Member for Stockport (Ann Coffey) for her or do we not comply? thoughts on Operation Paladin and Operation Newbridge. She is right that they have both been successful and useful, and I am grateful for her thoughts on what 12.19 pm should happen on that. The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green): I join On enforcement, legislation is in place that outlaws other hon. Members in congratulating the hon. Member trafficking of all kinds, and relatively new legislation for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds) not makes it an offence to pay for sexual services with just on securing the debate, but on having a rise so someone who has been subject to exploitative conduct meteoric that it is faster than my excellent officials can of any kind. That legislative framework needs to be keep up with. My brief invites me to congratulate her helped by robust policing and a wider law enforcement on her election to the Select Committee on Foreign response to trafficking and forced prostitution. Improving Affairs and already in the few days since it was drafted our knowledge and understanding of the situation is a she has gone on to greater things. At this rate of key component of ensuring that we have that effective progress, she will be Leader of the Opposition by Christmas. law enforcement response. I also congratulate the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana R. Johnson) on her elevation to the Several Members mentioned the number of victims Opposition Home Office team—I am sure that she will and what might be the most credible number. I think have many happy years there. that the right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane) I join other Members in congratulating, and expressing and to some extent the hon. Member for Kingston their admiration for, my old friend, Anthony Steen, upon Hull North are being unfair to the ACPO study, who helped to set up the all-party group on human which provides the latest and most accurate number we trafficking. Work on tackling human trafficking is now have. It is sensible to proceed on the basis that, although being carried on by my hon. Friend the Member for it is obviously a difficult figure to compute with absolute Wellingborough (Mr Bone), Clare Short, Baroness Butler- accuracy, that is the best and most up-to-date information Sloss and many others. that we have, so I think that we should work on that number. That study shows that there are 2,600 victims, The debate has raised many issues, and I will try to which shows the need for effective enforcement work. deal with as many as possible. I am conscious that I Police forces have been supported in that work by the have only 10 minutes, but I suspect that we will reconvene UK Human Trafficking Centre, which deals with trafficking in two days’ time for the debate on anti-slavery day. I as a high priority under SOCA, which had trafficking will pick up first on two important contributions that as its second priority, and further work will be done were slightly out of the mainstream but seem important. under the national crime agency. First, my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) noted that victims of trafficking are found In London, the Metropolitan police service is leading everywhere and that it is not just an inner-city or on combating human trafficking gangs and on disrupting big-city phenomenon. I think that that is right. Secondly, prostitution, particularly in the five Olympic boroughs the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk during the build-up to London 2012. The Met is effective (Michael Connarty) said that it is a question not just of in that in many ways. I am happy to say that this what we do in Britain, or even in Europe—I will address morning 17 children were safeguarded as part of a the European issue shortly—but of what we can do major joint operation by the Metropolitan police, Redbridge around the world, which is a good point, and one that council and the NHS in that borough. The children infuses the thinking that I propose to bring to this have been taken to a specially set up assessment centre. important matter as a Minister. We believe that they are victims of a Romanian-based The Government take seriously our responsibility to gang of child traffickers. Six people have been arrested. fight human trafficking and forced prostitution. On the That is extremely welcome news and a good example of points made about enforcement, the UK Human Trafficking the work that is being done in London and obviously Centre and on what is happening to SOCA, our response will continue to be done in the run-up to 2012. to trafficking will be enhanced and strengthened by the establishment of the national crime agency, which, with We of course recognise the point made about the its border policing responsibilities, will help to combat European dimension; that trafficking is essentially organised crime more effectively. That is our aim for the a cross-border crime. Accordingly, we must ensure national crime agency, which will be set up by legislation that there is sufficient international co-operation in the coming months. between Government and law enforcement agencies. 47WH Human Trafficking12 OCTOBER 2010 Human Trafficking 48WH

[Damian Green] that our attitude to this would be in some way infused with any kind of ideological anti-Europeanism, I can The Government remain committed to working with set their minds at rest; there will be none of that in this our international partners in the European Union and field—[Interruption.] the wider world. The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. Would the right said that she was confused about our response to the hon. Member for Rotherham please listen to the Minister? EU directive on trafficking. I will ease her confusion. I have heard from Members from both sides of the House Damian Green: I appreciate that convincing the right that our decision not to opt in at the outset of the EU hon. Gentleman might be difficult, but it is nevertheless directive on trafficking has raised anxieties among some the case. of them. We did not opt in at the outset, but we have the The effectiveness of the police and law enforcement capacity to review that position once the directive is agencies was mentioned. Each of the UK’s 55 police finally agreed, and that is what we will do. We have a forces now has an investigator trained to deal with strong record in the fight against trafficking and are human trafficking operations. The hon. Member for compliant both in legislation and in practice with most Upper Bann (David Simpson) rightly mentioned the of what is required by the draft directive. It contains no importance of prosecutions. There have been operational co-operation measures—I think this was 140 convictions for trafficking under the Sexual Offences the point that the right hon. Member for Rotherham Act 2003 and 10 convictions for labour trafficking. I was trying to get at—through which the UK would agree that those are not big numbers, but some traffickers benefit. Although it might improve the way other EU may not be charged with the specific offence of trafficking, states combat trafficking, it would make little difference depending on the facts of the case. I suspect that we all to the way the UK does so. By opting out and reviewing agree that it is better to get some sort of prosecution to our position when the directive is agreed, we can choose get them out of their criminal businesses than to have to benefit from a directive that is helpful but avoid being none. Some of them have been convicted for a range of bound by measures that are against our interests. serious charges, including rape and brothel management. The hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk My hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough talked about extra-territorial jurisdiction. Of course, we mentioned the idea of child guardians. Local authorities already have extra-territorial jurisdiction in a number already have a statutory duty to ensure that they safeguard of serious offences, such as child sexual exploitation. and promote the welfare of all children, and each child We will continue to play an active role in helping to is allocated an independent reviewing officer who is improve EU-wide efforts at combating trafficking by responsible for regularly chairing reviews of their care working constructively with our European partners. As plans. I am very aware of the problem of children going a practical example, we have contributed to the Stockholm missing from local authority care and welcome the programme, which contains a commitment to fight work by the London borough of Hillingdon and trafficking as an EU priority until 2014. Hertfordshire county council, both of which have taken We are also involved in a number of initiatives focused some practical and effective measures to try to minimise specifically on trafficking, such as improving data and what has been a long-running problem. I have highlighted sharing best practice. The important co-operation between what the UK has achieved so far, but— British law enforcement agencies and European partners, including Europol and Frontex, will continue unaffected. Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. We must move Therefore, if any Opposition Members were worried on to the next debate. 49WH 12 OCTOBER 2010 Tourette Syndrome 50WH

Tourette Syndrome Since preventive therapies are not in sight, possibilities for direct cost reduction are improbable. Nevertheless, a better integration of patients with TS in the working 12.30 am environment has the potential not only to improve Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): It is a patients’ quality of life but substantially to reduce indirect pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first costs, yet wide access to clinical psychology services and time, Mrs Main. I am pleased to have this opportunity specialised habit reversal therapy is not available due to to raise the important issue of Government policy on a lack of funding and trained professionals. Tourette syndrome. I believe that this is the first time it A Swedish study of juveniles sentenced for serious has been discussed in this Chamber. offences revealed that 2% had TS, which is double the Most people understandably have little or no knowledge 1% prevalence figure among schoolchildren up to 18 years of TS, and what knowledge they do have is coloured by old. That could be the tip of the iceberg, as most crimes media reports which are either simplistic or exaggerated. committed by TS offenders are more likely to be minor The charity Tourettes Action achieved its highest profile offences. TS on its own rarely leads to criminal behaviour, and biggest income boost in 2006, when Tourette sufferer but patients with TS who have behavioural co-morbidities Pete Bennett was declared the winner of the seventh are at risk of being involved with the legal system. series of “Big Brother”, but even that was not without Symptoms of TS such as jerking and shouting out controversy: some commentators accused the show’s could be thought to be antisocial or alcohol-related and producers of exploiting Mr Bennett’s condition to boost waste police time, as well as being embarrassing for the ratings in a voyeuristic fashion. individual. What are the facts about this much misunderstood Likewise, people with TS often have to bear social condition? Put simply, it is a chronic, inherited neuro- ostracism, which manifests itself in ridicule, bullying developmental disorder characterised by uncontrollable and social exclusion from an early age. Sixty-two per sounds and movements which are called tics. It affects cent. of children with Tourette’s withhold themselves about one in 100 schoolchildren, most of whom are from taking part in social activities because of TS-related undiagnosed. Tourette syndrome does not affect IQ, problems. Children and young people in particular suffer but people with the condition do exhibit co-morbidities a generally worse quality of life than healthy young such as obsessive compulsive disorder, insomnia, depression people without TS across all the following areas: and autistic spectrum disorders. There is no cure for TS, psychosocial health, emotional functioning, social but tics wax and wane and can change in their nature functioning and school functioning. Similarly, the burden and severity over time. Despite what many people believe, for parents and carers is significantly higher than it is not all sufferers have coprolalia, which is involuntary even for parents of children with other chronic disorders swearing or the utterances of obscene words—90% do such as asthma, according to a 2003 research paper not have it. produced by the American Academy of Child Adolescent People with TS face many challenges, such as the Psychiatry entitled, “Psychological Morbidity and Caregiver physical discomfort and aches and pains caused by their Burden in Parents of Children With Tourette’s Disorder tics: 87% of people with TS who participated in a and Psychiatric Comorbidity”. Tourettes Action survey in 2008 answered “yes” to the question, “Do your tics ever cause you pain?” and Above all, education is a major problem for children 66% of children with TS are bothered by aches and with TS. Attention and concentration problems are pains and physical discomfort. Repeated movements common, and tics are easily misinterpreted as deliberately and injuries resulting from tics cause pain, and sometimes naughty behaviour by untrained teachers, who are rarely children’s impulses are dangerous to themselves. aware of strategies for managing TS in the classroom, or who do not understand that tics can be suppressed People with TS also suffer higher rates of unemployment and children are often more focused on that than on as adults. According to a recent academic study, learning. Tics, which peak in severity at around 10 to unemployment rates for people with TS are two to three 12 years old, can typically be worse at home than at times higher than those for the whole UK population. school, and children find homework tough as they are A study of the health economic burden of a cohort of often exhausted by the effort of disguising or suppressing adult hospital patients with TS in Germany over a their tics in company. The Journal of Child Psychology three-month period showed that disease severity has no and Psychiatry published an article last year which influence on costs. Additional TS-specific costs totalled stated that 59% of children with TS have some sort of ¤3,404 per patient. The cost was based on calculating educational problem that needs support or special direct medical costs, out-patient care costs, drug costs, education. ancillary treatment costs and indirect medical costs. Direct costs constituted about 18% of the total, while The aim of this debate is to develop at least rudimentary indirect costs comprised 81% of the total. Drug treatments cross-departmental working between the Department constituted approximately 7% of the total costs and for Education and the Department of Health, and a 36% of the total direct costs. Using those figures for commitment to work towards a strategy for Tourette adult patients with TS in the UK would correlate to syndrome focused on a few key areas. The first is costs of some £1.5 billion a year. Obvious provisos are increased access to services. TS crosses traditional public that health economics estimations may not transfer well service boundaries such as physical health, mental health, from country to country and, just as importantly, the education and social welfare. That is a challenge for experience of patients seen in a particular clinic cannot local service providers, who should ensure that individuals necessarily be extrapolated to the number of adults as a do not fall between service gaps. In reality, however, whole who are believed to have TS, as many do not the challenge often falls on the individual with TS or receive specialist medical care. their family. 51WH Tourette Syndrome12 OCTOBER 2010 Tourette Syndrome 52WH

[Mr Stewart Jackson] care services to provide a suitable standard of expertise and provision. Local professionals are key figures, but Access to psychological therapy is particularly difficult currently local engagement is patchy. for most people with TS. For example, a member of Better transition from child to adult services is crucial. Tourettes Action has waited more than 16 months for a We need to ensure that appropriate support and services decision on whether she can get habit reversal therapy. are available after a child turns 18. Tourettes Action Provision of specialised services is sparse throughout receives helpline calls from young people with TS who the country; that is a second barrier, in addition to the have become addicted to alcohol and drugs, which they stretched state of psychology services generally. She use to self-medicate their symptoms. Those young people finds herself caught between various NHS bodies that have been discharged from children’s services with no are reluctant to allow resources to be used for her, and ongoing support. seemingly reluctant, up to chief executive level, to communicate with her in a transparent manner. TS-specific support in schools is vital. Children with TS have to live with the consequences of their education. That experience is not unique, but more common is If they are not given the right support in school to the simple lack of use of psychological treatment for which all children are entitled, they are at high risk of TS, although there is a strong evidence base for its ending up facing unemployment and social exclusion. efficacy. Such treatments have been proven to be about Special educational needs teachers are currently not as effective as drugs in reducing tic severity, but without given any specific training on Tourette syndrome, even side effects. Psychological services need to be provided though TS prevalence in SEN classes is high. Under on the basis of evidence in the same way that medical or current legislation, including the Disability Discrimination surgical treatments are expected to be. This is an issue Act 1995, schools are obliged to make reasonable of both funding and professional awareness and training. adjustments, which could mean measures as simple as That brings me to the awareness of TS by those who exit cards or extra time for examinations, or as demanding work in primary care—the so-called gatekeepers of as extra staffing. Some children are fortunate to already diagnosis. Commonly, tics will not be observed during a receive a high standard of support in the education visit to the doctor. They are often suppressible, especially system but many, sadly, do not. in the general practitioner’s office. Some children will Tourette syndrome has hitherto been treated as a substitute more apparent tics with less apparent ones in subject of risqué jokes and ribaldry, but for the children the clinical setting, or will wait until they are not being and young people afflicted by the condition, who are observed to release tics. Others may disguise tics as fearful of its effects on themselves and of the understandable seemingly purposeful movements such as brushing hair fear and ignorance of strangers, it really is no laughing out of the face in concert with head jerking. matter. They, too, deserve a hearing from our policy Half of the people participating in the Tourettes makers. I hope that the Minister, who has a strong Action survey, “Evaluation of use of Consultants’ List”, record in his parliamentary career of intervening in in 2009 did not receive a referral to a specialist or a cases involving vulnerable people, will reassure us today consultant. Old-fashioned notions of “habits” from that there is at least a commitment to develop a policy which a child will recover, although appropriate to on the condition, not least because a coherent strategy commonly seen transient tic disorders, are sometimes across government will not only save taxpayers’ money applied inappropriately to children with full-blown in the long run, but will help to relieve TS sufferers and Tourette’s, who need further medical attention. Although their families of a lonely burden that they have carried clinical expertise is not expected of general practitioners, for too long. in practice people in primary care are undoubtedly suffering from a lack of awareness. 12.44 pm That brings me to national recognition of the need for consistent specialist services. The Department of The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul Health has not yet perceived Tourette syndrome as an Burstow): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member area meriting consideration. There are no National for Peterborough (Mr Jackson)on securing this debate Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence guidelines and on bringing the attention of the House to a rare or other measures commanding the attention of and poorly understood condition. He has done a good commissioners, which means, effectively, that they do job of outlining the scope, scale and cost of the condition not feel the need to recognise the condition as a distinct and the personal impact that it has on many children issue. Consequently, patients receive different support and their families. in different regions, essentially based on the interest or I will set out some of the changes that the Government otherwise of local clinicians. are making in the NHS that we think will have a Tourettes Action holds a list of only 44 consultants in significant impact on and will benefit people with Tourette’s. the whole of the United Kingdom who have a special My hon. Friend talked about education, which I will interest in seeing people with TS. Those consultants are briefly mention, too, particularly in the context of the a mixture of child and adult psychiatrists, neurologists difficulties that can be faced by children suffering from and paediatricians. The list is much in demand by the condition, which can be, as he said, misinterpreted patients and families and has been cultivated over many by teachers. He is right to describe the sheer feeling of years. To reduce the problems of a delayed diagnosis exhaustion in children who are trying to suppress and and treatment, it would be beneficial if that expertise hide the condition. Socially and emotionally, Tourette’s were spread more widely. A possible strategy would be can lead to ridicule and bullying and can often cause for a NICE appraisal of treatment options, including difficulties in forming relationships. Although some psychological therapies, to give support to less-experienced children grow out of the condition, it is a barrier in clinicians and to exert top-down pressure on local secondary many ways, particularly to employment in later life. We 53WH Tourette Syndrome12 OCTOBER 2010 Tourette Syndrome 54WH need to ensure that we have a psychosocial-physical certainly opportunities for Tourettes Action to contribute approach: we need to look at the whole person when to developing family doctors’ understanding of the designing services around the needs of individuals and condition and how to commission for it effectively. their families. Secondly, there will be a much bigger role for local government in promoting integration and partnership My hon. Friend is right to mention stigma: that is a working between the NHS, social care, public health big challenge that we have to tackle. Today’s debate is a and other local services and strategies. In particular, helpful starting point. I welcome his demolishing some local government will take on the function of joining up of the myths that surround Tourette’s syndrome, most the commissioning of local NHS services, social care notably his confirming that, despite the popular caricature, and health improvement, and providing greater local involuntarily swearing is only present in a tiny minority democratic accountability for the community. of cases. My hon. Friend mentioned identification and planning I join my hon. Friend in commending the work of of care for children with Tourette’s. Under our plans, Tourettes Action, which is doing excellent work to build councils will ensure that GP consortiums and their local awareness and skills in health and children’s services. As partners work together on joint strategic needs assessments he says, that work demonstrates that better awareness, for local populations, looking not just look at who is on timely diagnosis and good access to specialist care are the patient list, but at the wider needs of the population critical in improving people’s quality of life. Of course, in the locality. That will mean that councils and health early detection makes it less likely that the child gets organisations will become much better at identifying blamed for what might otherwise be mistaken for bad children’s needs, and putting the services in place to behaviour. Indeed, the condition is stress-sensitive and meet them. Our proposals for health and well-being the relief a child can get from teachers and their classmates boards will provide a place where children’s services, understanding their condition can actually improve their health services, social care and other agencies may come symptoms. together to ensure that we are better at planning services and dealing with some of the issues that my hon. Friend The NHS has not always got diagnosis right. My mentioned. hon. Friend is right to mention the range of services that are provided and their patchiness. The Government The third key point is that the new NHS will focus on have to grapple with that inheritance and ensure that we outcomes, not on processes. The trouble with a top-down build on those services and improve them significantly and target-driven system is that it creates a culture in in the coming years. It is clear that young people and which, as my hon. Friend said, what gets measured gets children affected by Tourette’s have not always had the done. If it is not measured, it seems to be neglected. He right support and services. We need to get better at described perfectly what we have seen and how services identifying the condition, referring children to specialists have developed over several years. Our proposals will and providing the long-term, integrated support needed create a level playing field in the NHS between mental to reduce the wider effects. I cannot promise a dedicated and physical health, and will encourage a much more strategy specifically for this condition, and I do not constructive relationship between health and other public think that that is what my hon. Friend is asking for, but services. That is important, and my hon. Friend rightly I am keen to see that the issues he raised are properly said that we must ensure that we do not treat mental fed into our future plans for the NHS, particularly into health services as a poor relation of the NHS. The developing our thinking on child mental health. In Government are determined to ensure that that does addition to the reassurances that I hope I can give in the not happen. time left, I will ask officials to meet Tourettes Action Health services will be judged and, increasingly, paid and my hon. Friend to continue this conversation and not just according to the number of procedures or discuss in more detail the issues he has raised. This consultations that they carry out, but on the value that debate is not the end of the discussion, but just the they bring to patients’ health and their wider life—my beginning of a process leading to the sort of improvements hon. Friend made that point well. That will be a powerful that he has been talking about. catalyst for bringing services much closer together around the needs of the individual. A child with Tourette The proposals for the NHS set out in our White syndrome often has multiple and complex needs, as he Paper give us a powerful opportunity to improve the said. More often than not, they will also have symptoms care and support received by children with Tourette’s. of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, obsessive First, patients will have much greater power in the compulsive disorder or depression. They may be seen reformed system. We want to give people more information by a range of health care professionals, including about services, more choice about their treatments and psychiatrists, psychologists and so on. An outcomes-based more influence over how health care is shaped in their approach will ensure that all professionals are geared to community. Local health watch organisations will ensure work together to achieve the best results for the child. that views and feedback from patients and carers feed Our proposals will be a potent catalyst for change and into future decisions about shaping local health and improvement in this area. social care. By devolving responsibility for commissioning Fourthly and finally, we are in the process of developing to GP consortiums, decision making will be closer to a new mental health strategy, which will be cross- patients and more responsive to their individual needs. governmental and will examine how to support people’s Of course, we have to ensure that GP commissioners emotional well-being and mental health at all ages and are ready and have the skills and awareness that they across all services, not just health. One of my criticisms need to take these decisions. The NHS commissioning of the “New Horizons” mental health strategy was that board will work with a range of expert organisations to it did not do enough to tackle discrimination and ensure that GP leaders get the right support. There are stigma. We are determined to make sure that in a more 55WH Tourette Syndrome12 OCTOBER 2010 Tourette Syndrome 56WH

[Paul Burstow] approach, give a new impetus to developing better transition services. We must get that right for children, public health-oriented mental health strategy, we begin regardless of their condition. to address those issues more effectively. That must We are also working with the royal colleges and certainly be the case in Tourette’s. others to promote higher standards of education and training throughout the clinical community. My hon. Mr Jackson: I am grateful for the Minister’s positive Friend rightly focused on that, and I welcome the fact response. Will he undertake to share the results of the that a network of psychologists and other therapists is wider review of mental health and Tourette’s syndrome being established to work with people with Tourette’s. with his colleagues in the Department for Education? That is a powerful way of moving the agenda forward. I An holistic approach is incredibly important, as is the understand that the network hopes to establish a specialist close working relationship between specialist psychology training workshop, led by experts in behavioural treatment and mental health services. Local education authorities for tics, during 2011. I commend that work and look are particularly important in ensuring that children’s forward to hearing the results. educational attainment is the best possible. My hon. Friend mentioned the role of schools and the need to collaborate across Government. I do not have ministerial responsibility for this area, but I draw Paul Burstow: I certainly undertake to ensure that the his attention to the Green Paper on special educational Minister of State, Department for Education, my hon. needs and disabilities that the Minister of State, Department Friend the Member for Brent Central (Sarah Teather), for Education, my hon. Friend the Member for Brent who has responsibilities in this area, reads this debate. Central, is preparing. The aim is to make the system We recently met the National Advisory Council for work better for parents, so that they do not have to Children’s Mental Health and Emotional Wellbeing, battle to obtain the necessary support for their children. and we are discussing its thoughts on how to move A call for evidence was launched last month and is due forward and to ensure that child and adolescent mental to close this Friday 15 October. If it has not done so, I health services are properly reflected in the new mental hope that Tourettes Action will contribute its views. I health strategy that we are developing. That is an issue am sure that this debate will also be a useful contribution. for further discussion. I have made it clear that I want mental health to achieve parity with physical health in I thank my hon. Friend for introducing this important NHS thinking about care. I also want to ensure that debate. He raised some points that are important not CAMHS are not overshadowed by adult mental health just for children with Tourette’s, but for children with a services, which should help to drive up the quality of wide range of neurological and mental health problems. care for children with Tourette’s. Our White Paper provides the chance to refocus the NHS on achieving better results for them all. The My hon. Friend talked about transitions, which are outcomes framework will be a central driver for important. We so often get the transition from children’s improvement and will ensure that the NHS treats the services to adult services wrong. I agree that that continues person, not just the disease, but meeting people’s needs to be a serious weakness and that child and adult effectively depends on good partnerships with groups mental health services do not work seamlessly together. such as Tourettes Action to give us the expert knowledge That was identified as an area requiring improvement that we need about rare conditions. I am keen to have a by an independent review in 2008 and in the report of strong dialogue with the voluntary sector, and indeed the National Advisory Council for Children’s Mental the White Paper is all about opening doors to organisations Health and Emotional Wellbeing, “One YearOn”, which such as Tourettes Action. I hope that the group’s first was published in March. One difficulty is that not all step will be to take the opportunity to meet my officials child mental health services are replicated in adult and to respond to the call for evidence by my hon. mental health provision, and my hon. Friend described Friend the Minister of State, Department for Education. some of the services that are rarely available for children. I hope that by working together in that way, we can do The new commissioning arrangements, particularly the much better than the legacy that we inherited from new role for local government, with an outcomes-based the past. 57WH 12 OCTOBER 2010 Offshore Wind Infrastructure 58WH Competition Offshore Wind Infrastructure Competition confidence, or because of a lack of technical know-how. They are not due to the debilitating morass of legal minefields, but are simply a question of how we as a 1pm country assemble the resources to build and maintain Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): I am such an undertaking over the period in which we have delighted to conduct this debate because I think that it to do it. In the face of international demands on resources, relates to a real and important part of our future. We we will not be able to rely on others to come in and do it are on the cusp of a revolution in our energy supplies—a for us. green energy revolution that will surpass anything that As has been observed, this programme will put other we have seen so far by several orders of magnitude. It engineering feats such as the Thames barrier and the will primarily involve the manufacture, assembly, channel tunnel into the shade. It will require an efficient deployment and servicing of offshore wind energy, supply chain consisting of turbine blades, foundations harvesting the wind around our coasts—and sometimes and concrete towers, gear boxes for the turbines, 7,500 km as far as 200 km away from them—so that by 2020, 20% of underwater high-voltage cable, the commissioning of our electricity needs will be supplied from renewable and use of vessels to transport, deploy and service the sources. turbines, and the port estate that can serve to assemble, We have passed some milestones along the way. Over deliver and service those wind farms on which we will the past six years, Britain’s offshore wind capacity has depend. If the supply chain is effective, it will produce steadily increased, and 350 turbines have been installed jobs for the UK along its length and, if sited securely, offshore, collectively providing over 1 GW of installed much of the manufacturing and finishing of the supply capacity. During that period, one new turbine was chain components will be located in the UK. installed every 11 days, and Britain is now the world If we do not tackle the problems and grasp the leader in installed offshore wind. Over the next 10 years, opportunities of that supply chain, and if we do not that rate of installation will need to increase twentyfold. have the ambition to meet its challenges, one of two With the commitments outstanding from round 2 licensing outcomes will be inevitable. We will either fail to deploy competitions for UK coastal waters, and the recent anything like the number of turbines that we need to allocation of blocks in round 3, about 6,400 turbines supply the 20% of electricity from renewables to which are projected to be installed at a rate of roughly one a we are committed, or we might get close to our target day from now until 2016, with up to 2.5 a day between but find that the good offices of others step into the 2016 and 2020. As a result, there will be 30 GW of breach that we leave. Consider for a moment the installed capacity offshore, which will come in part construction of the largest present offshore wind farm fromdeeper sea installations with larger turbines of up in the world, the London Array. It was undertaken by to 10 MW output per turbine at full capacity. Just four overseas companies, using components for the turbines of those turbines, for example, could power all the that were overwhelmingly sourced overseas, and managed homes in my constituency. and serviced not from this side of the channel but from Dunkirk. This is an enormous and ambitious challenge, but it is not just paper talk. The sites have been allocated, the We must get that supply chain fit for its purpose, companies developing them have been recruited, and sound and able to deliver on the ambitions that we have the planning and finance is underway. It is not a matter set for it. We have the facilities; there are some 200 ports of controversy between the parties; the process was around the coast of Britain and there is far more land started by the last Government, and it is set to continue and developed quayside than almost anywhere else in under this one. The coalition agreement explicitly states: the world. Just as we turned around ports and port estates to assemble drilling rigs, receive and deploy “We will deliver an offshore electricity grid in order to support pipelines, and service and supply production platforms the development of a new generation of offshore wind power.” during the last North sea energy revolution, so must we If, as is widely stated, there is a determination to come do it again in the new, green energy revolution. out of the recession through green growth and investment, Most of the investment for that enterprise will come surely this programme is the epitome of such action. It from the private sector, but it must be primed so that the will see the investment of perhaps £120 billion and the redirection of the ports that will play key roles in the creation of over 55,000 jobs—perhaps 70,000 if substantial supply chain gets securely underway. Once it is underway, elements of the revolution are fabricated and sourced there will be a great added-value outcome with clusters from the UK. of manufacturing, servicing, component assembly and Will it really happen? In my view, it has to happen if cable laying that will support the wind farms as they we are to come anywhere near to keeping pace with grow. targets on decarbonising our energy supply and, in Industry estimates suggest that to complete the terms of energy security, sourcing for ever and at no deployment of those 6,400 turbines by 2020, and to additional fuel cost energy that is securely delivered to secure further development over the following decades, the UK from the UK. It is good to see that the commitment about five offshore wind turbine plants, five plants is there and that the legal and administrative structures producing foundations and 13 cable factories need to be to guarantee deployment are in place. The renewable built in the UK, alongside and probably in the vicinity obligation to underpin the financing of this enormous of those ports, scoping out the capacity to put all that roll-out is now guaranteed beyond the round 3 competition manufacture to good use. completion date, with the calm waters of investment That was essentially the intention of the offshore security lapping around the turbines as they go up. wind infrastructure competition: to bring along that Unusually, the doubts come from a different angle. tremendous value-added outcome in the wake of some They are not due to politicians falling out with each relatively modest pump-priming, in this instance some other and devising contradictory schemes that destroy £60 million. 59WH Offshore Wind Infrastructure 12 OCTOBER 2010 Offshore Wind Infrastructure 60WH Competition Competition Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): Does my Gentleman mentioned, manufacturing brings about the hon. Friend agree that any action by the Government to added value that I am certain will be part of the process deny funding support for this industry and competition in a relatively short time. would fly in the face of the declaration made by the It is important that the pump-priming process remains Prime Minister that his would be the greenest Government in place, giving the manufacturers confidence that there ever? Such an action would damage the prospects for is a future for them in the UK and that the plans for tens of thousands of jobs in constituencies such as mine getting the supply chain in the UK right for wind are that have the expertise to execute massive contracts, and serious. However, the announcement of the competition, it would chase potential developers to European coastline archived on the Department for Business, Innovation areas where they could win big business equally well. and Skills website, has, subsequent to its initial appearance, had this message affixed to it: Dr Whitehead: My hon. Friend anticipates some of the comments that I am going to make shortly. It is “Current policy under review. Site will be updated as soon as right to say that not only do we need the Government to we have a clearer view of the new Government’s policy”. be the greenest ever in terms of their ambitions, but that That is it, in a nutshell. Will the competition now to will the ends yet deny the means of arriving at those proceed? My view is that for all the reasons that I have outcomes would be difficult to countenance. outlined, it is imperative that it does. Cancellation or The offshore wind infrastructure competition was even a delay of the competition would seriously hamper first announced on 24 March this year. It was described the development of the infrastructure necessary to make in the following words: what all sides are committed to, start to work in practice. “The competition will consider bids from site developers who have a viable plan for developing their site into a centre for Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Does offshore wind manufacturing and assembly. We intend to make the hon. Gentleman agree that if the funding is cut, that funding available for the development of these sites...We expect will show that the coalition Government have little or that sites will need to demonstrate that they have the capability to no real understanding of the returns to the economy provide: sufficient land capable of being developed into a and the environment from maintaining investor confidence manufacturing site for offshore wind turbines; access to facilities in green initiatives such as offshore wind infrastructure, for the transport of large and heavy products; and heavy duty and that their savage spending cuts are causing uncertainty surfacing capable of bearing heavy loads. Bids will need to be for people living near ports such as Newhaven, just up supported by intent from a manufacturer(s) to locate on that site if the site is successful in the competition.” the coast from my constituency? Does he share— Remarkably, on the back of that announcement, Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. May I ask the tectonic plates did begin to move. A day later, GE hon. Lady to keep her remarks brief? Energy announced that it intended to invest £90 million on turbine manufacture in the UK. Less than a week Dr Whitehead: I thank the hon. Member for Brighton, later, Siemens announced that it intended to invest more Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) for her intervention. I am than £80 million in UK-based offshore wind turbine trying my best to be as nice as possible today in ensuring production. When we add to that Clipper turbines that the points that I think are essential with regard to siting a 70-feet blade manufacturing plant on the Tyne, the future of the competition are placed squarely on the Burntisland Fabrications announcing two new factories table. However, it is correct that each of the different building underwater jacket substructures in Fife, and competitions, incentives and devices all add up to the Welcon producing 100-metre towers in Campbeltown, question whether the present Government are serious the surge in the direction of UK-based manufacturing about a green agenda; or are they prepared to will the and support seems to be under way if—I do not think ends but not the means as far as that agenda is concerned? that this is overstating matters—that priming process That is a very important consideration in respect of all remains in place. the issues that we are discussing. Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): I am grateful to the Let us say that the competition is cancelled. It takes hon. Gentleman for securing the debate. I share his more time to re-establish those links and that confidence, enthusiasm for wind energy—offshore renewable energy— once broken, than it does to establish them in the first and ensuring that we make the most of the opportunity place; and it is fair to say that as far as North sea wind is that it has presented to us for our industry and for concerned, we do not have time to throw away. securing manufacturing in the UK. To my mind, we Of course, I am aware, as everyone else is in the need to be adopting a three-pronged approach— Room, that hard decisions about the future of public money and investments await us; and I am not one who Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. May I gently will rush to the defence of every existing commitment remind the hon. Gentleman that this is a very short regardless of its intrinsic merit. However, there is a clear debate and he is supposed to make a brief intervention? distinction between those investments that work within Peter Aldous: Thank you, Mrs Main. I was referring themselves and those investments that work beyond to the green investment bank, developing the skills base themselves, and this one, as I have shown, will, I hope, and Government—does the hon. Member for work far beyond itself in terms of value added on Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) agree that Government money invested. acting as a catalyst to attract that investment is vital? However, there is another factor at work. That relates to the very nature of round 3 itself. Round 3 is one of Dr Whitehead: I agree that Government acting as a many stages in licensing processes of various kinds that catalyst—I mentioned pump-priming—is vital, not by have gone on in the North sea over the years. Those providing underwriting and a subsidy for ever, but by licensing competitions, under the auspices of the Crown priming the process whereby, precisely as the hon. Estate—the owner of the seabed around the British 61WH Offshore Wind Infrastructure 12 OCTOBER 2010 Offshore Wind Infrastructure 62WH Competition Competition isles—are not charitable auctions. They raise money leader in the transition to a low-carbon economy and permanently from the licences that are issued. In the we are committed to reducing our carbon emissions by case of the Crown Estate, the money, after investment 80% by 2050. decisions have been looked after, goes directly back to I am sure that the hon. Member for Southampton, the Treasury. That is what is required of the Crown Test would agree with me that the future of the UK’s Estate by statute. energy supply must be secure, flexible and low carbon. In this context, it is instructive to consider the sort of It is not one against the other; all three elements must sums that we are discussing. The Crown Estate altogether be part of the way forward. We envisage a mix of has contributed some £1.8 billion to the Treasury over low-carbon generation that will be made up of new the past decade. Last year alone, £46 million came the nuclear—the hon. Gentleman and I may part company Treasury’s way from the Crown Estate as a result of its on that one—coal with carbon capture, and renewable overall seabed activity. In its 2010 annual report, it sources. We also envisage a substantial element of energy stated: efficiency, as the cheapest energy of all is the energy that “Revenue delivered by the renewables sector rose sharply by we do not use in the first place. 44.4% to £2.6 million. From a low base, this part of our business However, in moving to a low-carbon energy system, I is experiencing exponential growth and we expect it to provide a am well aware that there are serious challenges ahead. significant source of total income in the next 10 years.” Some of them arise because this change comes at a In other words, a good proportion of the £60 million point in the cycle when we need radically to upgrade for the infrastructure competition comes back to and update our energy infrastructure in any case. Ofgem the Treasury through the licensing arrangements on the and Ernst and Young have calculated that over the next seabed that are a sine qua non of all the rest of the 10 to 15 years, some £200 billion of new investment is activity. needed in new generation, transmission and distribution This is not a trivial point: we can say with certainty systems. that the offshore renewables industry is providing, up Renewable energy is set to be a major part of our front and as a sign of its intent, substantial sums of future energy supply and will consist of a wide range of money before a single watt of power has emerged from technologies, some of which are well established, such its round 3 investments. Therefore, the investment by as onshore wind, and some of which are emerging still, Government of that £60 million in port infrastructure such as wave and tidal energy. However, it is clear that can perhaps best be seen as a contribution in kind that there is an important role for offshore wind in the UK’s jointly will unleash the value added outcome of £1.2 billion energy future, and all of us taking part in the debate are in investment as the licences reach maturity. We are united on that. The UK is a windy place—we have talking, in the offshore wind infrastructure competition, 40% of Europe’s wind resource, and a lot of land and a not of a quango to cull, but of a world to win. I hope great deal of sea bed available for generation. Wind is a that the Minister, who I know cares deeply about these low-carbon energy source, which means it will play a matters and has stoutly supported the development of major role in tackling climate change. As the hon. offshore wind through its many vicissitudes, will be able Member for Southampton, Test said, it is also a domestic to confirm that that is his view also, and that the little energy source, which means that it will make a vital notice on the top of the announcement of the competition contribution to our energy security as well. is shortly due for removal. Offshore wind is quickly making the jump from being an emerging technology to being a major part of the 1.17 pm UK’s electricity supply. I am sure that many Members welcomed the formal opening of Thanet offshore wind The Minister of State, Department of Energy and farm three weeks ago by my hon. Friend, the Secretary Climate Change (Charles Hendry): It is a great pleasure of State for Energy and Climate Change. With a hundred to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main, and to do turbines, it is the largest operational offshore wind farm so on the subject of renewable energy, which I know is in the world, and a clear sign of the UK’s determination also close to your heart. I congratulate the hon. Member to develop this huge natural resource with which we are for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) on securing the blessed. I agree with the hon. Gentleman: we are carrying debate and on introducing it in such a constructive and forward work started under the previous Administration thoughtful way. I am grateful to him and other hon. and seeking to build on it. Members for the way in which they have taken part in It is clear that the sector recognises how committed the debate, which has enabled it to be constructive and to deployment we are, and many companies are starting positive. to gain access to this new and long-term market. The I agree with the hon. Member for Southampton, Test message is clear: if you want to be in the offshore wind that we are on the edge of a green energy revolution, market you need to move quickly, and the UK is the and that time is not on our side. I agree also with my place to be. We will certainly learn the lessons from the hon. Friend the Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) past; we have seen too much supply chain activity going that the Government have to be a catalyst to making the overseas. We do not want to look back in a few years’ green energy revolution happen. The potential is simply time and see a most remarkable roll-out of such enormous and we are completely dedicated to making it technologies, but with too many jobs and much of the happen. investment having gone to other countries. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said that An important supply chain is already developing. this would be the greenest Government ever. He said Mabey Bridge in Monmouthshire and Welcon Towers that on his second day in office and it goes to the heart in Argyll are making the towers that support the turbines. of everything that we are doing as an Administration. David Brown in Huddersfield is making the large gearboxes. Our ambitions are clear. We want Britain to be a global Tees Alliance Group and Burntisland Fabrication, to 63WH Offshore Wind Infrastructure 12 OCTOBER 2010 Offshore Wind Infrastructure 64WH Competition Competition [Charles Hendry] I was pleased that back in July we were able to announce the first round of grants since the Budget for which the hon. Gentleman referred, are making the developing new-generation offshore wind technology, foundation components. Harland and Wolff is being shortly after the coalition came to power. That emphasises transformed into a centre for offshore wind and renewable the way in which we are keen to stimulate activity in the technologies. Granada Material Handling in Manchester sector. To cite a few examples: JDR Cable Systems is recently won a contract to supply 176 cranes for the working to develop high voltage export and array cables Sheringham Shoal offshore wind farm. Prysmian Cables for distribution of power from next generation, multi- & Systems in Wrexham won a £15 million cabling megawatt turbines; South Boats will look at the modular contract for the Gwynt y Môr wind farm. Some key design of offshore wind farm support vessels; and investments are coming through. We are already exporting Converteam will develop large-scale direct current key components—these are not just exercises for the conversion technology. The grants indicate the sheer domestic market—for example, Burntisland Fabrication breadth of the supply chain opportunities in the sector has supplied foundations not only for the Greater Gabbard and the Government’s determination to move forward. project off the Thames estuary, but for the German Deployment of offshore wind could require an investment Alpha Ventus offshore wind project. of over a hundred billion pounds over the next decade. If we are to see that huge sum invested by the sector, Although I note the enthusiasm of the hon. Member one thing is clear: we also need to do everything we can for Southampton, Test for offshore wind manufacturing, to ensure that developers, investors and manufacturers I must be clear that I will not be announcing the have confidence in the market. They must see us as the outcome of the spending review. It may be tempting for most attractive place in the world to invest. We have me to do so but it would obviously be a bad career move tackled some of the barriers that have, until recently, to take the Chancellor’s thunder. We understand the held the industry back, for example, taking forward the issues that the hon. Gentleman and many others have work on planning and providing a stable regulatory raised, and the importance that they attach to the environment to ensure swift consenting decisions. Ministers infrastructure project. We will be providing clarity on will decide major infrastructure projects within one that and ensuring that the website message can be year, in accordance with the clear policy framework changed in the near future. provided by national policy statements. That will help As the hon. Member for Southampton, Test notes, to secure the confidence of investors by removing concerns the rapid deployment we need will pose a real challenge about delay.There has been progress, and we are determined to the supply chain. The levels of deployment we are to move forward quickly. likely to see in the UK and Europe are far in excess of The Crown Estate recently had a successful leasing current production capacity, and rapid scaling up will round, with strong interest from developers, and it is be needed. There is no doubt that that offers potential also undertaking enabling actions, including aerial bird for significant employment and economic benefits to surveys and marine mammal research, to de-risk and the UK, as well as the opportunity to create a broad accelerate development within round 3. My department manufacturing base in a high-value-added sector, which has completed a strategic environmental assessment. really needs to be close by in Europe—partly due to the We are ahead of the game on that aspect of marine sheer size of the turbines—and I intend for it to be in spatial planning, and taking a proactive stance on the the UK. Turbines used offshore are larger and have to use of assessments as a means of striking a balance be even more reliable than onshore ones. They have among promoting offshore energy resources, effective deep foundations and need undersea cabling, and their environmental protection and other uses of the sea. size means that they are harder to transport, and, I am aware that we need a form of financial support realistically, a lot of the production has to be local to that works for offshore renewables. We will set out our the market—and the UK is the market. We are already proposals for reforming the electricity market later in No. 1 in the world for offshore wind deployment, and, the year, but we are clear that we will not change the under all realistic scenarios, we will keep that position ground rules for renewables obligations for existing all the way to 2020 and beyond. investments—we are not taking a retrospective approach Until very recently, the production of offshore turbines to that work. We are committed to securing a significant was a niche market, but that is about to change. The increase in investment in renewables, so that we can industry is at an early stage of development, but is set meet the legally binding requirement for the European for huge growth. The UK is well placed to make the Union energy target in 2020 and our other long-term most of it, and the Government intend to achieve that. decarbonisation objectives. We have a strong research and development capability, As my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney (Peter and some excellent engineering, technology and Aldous) said, we are also planning to create a green manufacturing opportunities. Our experience in the investment bank to deliver financial interventions that aerospace and engineering sectors, coupled with several address market failures specific to green investment decades of work developing the North sea oil and gas needs, thereby supporting growth and environmental resource, and working in the very hazardous conditions objectives. I chair the offshore wind developers’ forum, there, means we have a pool of talent and experience to which brings together people keen to invest in the bring to this new sector. In short, we have a skilled work industry. Our approach is to look systematically at all force and some excellent companies that are ready to potential barriers to investment, and ensure that we diversify into this new market. It is an innovative sector, address them and move them on. in which the technologies used are still evolving and We are looking at how we can put in place the regime improving, and innovative companies have the potential that will be most attractive to investment in offshore to be very successful in the supply chain. transmission. We consider that it will deliver cheaper 65WH Offshore Wind Infrastructure 12 OCTOBER 2010 66WH Competition and timelier offshore grid connections, encourage innovation Rights of Victims and Families through competition, and enable new entrants to compete in the market. Ofgem is taking forward much of the work; the first tenders for transitional—in other words, 1.30 pm already constructed—assets were signed in summer 2009, Esther McVey (Wirral West) (Con): I start by welcoming and full implementation of the transitional regime followed everybody to what I hope will be a constructive and in July. informative debate. As the title suggests, its main purpose I hope that I have been able to show that, on a range is to discuss the rights of victims and their families in of fronts, we are taking forward the measures that will the judicial system. I want to look at that especially, make this country attractive to investors in the offshore although not exclusively, in the context of violent and wind sector. We are in no doubt about its potential in serious crimes such as murder and manslaughter. terms of our energy security and moving to a low-carbon Let me begin by familiarising everyone with the current economy.We are equally in no doubt about the contribution support for victims, before presenting some facts and that it can make towards the development of green jobs case studies to highlight the problems in the judicial in Britain and to revitalising some of our port infrastructure. system. In a written answer, the Under-Secretary of The hon. Member for Southampton, Test will have to State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for be patient for a little longer for the details of how we Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), explained that, under the intend to take that forward. I hope that I have reassured current system, him and other hon. Members of our absolute commitment to making Britain a world leader in this area. “The Government ensure practical and emotional support to victims through Victim Support and other voluntary sector providers. Through the Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme, it also provides financial compensation to blameless victims of violent and sexual crime. Bereaved relatives of homicide victims are also able to access free legal advice using a specialised helpline established in 2009. Any victim or witness can access free legal advice through the Legal Services Commission’s Community Legal Advice website and helpline.” He continued, noting that the Ministry of Justice “currently funds Victim Support on an annual basis and they received £38.2 million in the last financial year…This year Victim Support are testing a model of working that has seen the development of enhanced support services for the most vulnerable victims of crime and in particular families bereaved by homicide. Other specialist providers of services to victims are funded by the victims’ fund, comprised of money collected through the Victims’ Surcharge which is levied on all fines and ring-fenced for spending on services to victims. In 2010-11 £2.25 million has been made available to fund third-sector services for victims of sexual violence, £270,000 to fund third-sector services for families bereaved through homicide and £250,000 has been made available to third-sector services for hate crime.”—[Official Report, 21 July 2010; Vol. 514, c. 323W.] The National Victims Service would support the details that I have just read out. It highlights the fact that support for victims has dramatically improved in recent years and that crime levels are at their lowest since the war. The British crime survey has reported that all crime rates are falling and have been in steady decline since 2002. It also tells us that there has been an overall reduction in violent crime, and the number of violent incidents has fallen by half since 1995. Those statistics are certainly encouraging, and I welcome the recent announcement by the Ministry of Justice that it intends to get prisoners to work, with some of their earnings being set aside for victims of crime. There are, however, two sides to every story. Jean Taylor, whose name I have mentioned before in the House of Commons in reference to victims of crime, is a courageous lady. She established the Merseyside charity Families Fighting For Justice, which is now spreading across the country at a rapid pace and becoming a national charity because her words ring true and resonate with people countrywide. This is what she has said: “What I learnt after the murders of my sister and my son and daughter was there is nothing out there for us victims and their families. But there is plenty out there regarding support and funding for the murderers and their families, while we are left in the dark to cope with the loss of our loved ones.” 67WH Rights of Victims and Families12 OCTOBER 2010 Rights of Victims and Families 68WH

[Esther McVey] have access to victim impact statements before passing sentences. Does that adequately reflect the impact on Unfortunately, those feelings are echoed elsewhere. victims and their families in the judicial system? Discussing its 2009 report “Order in the Courts: Restoring trust through local justice”, the Centre for Social Justice Esther McVey: It goes some way, but many of the states: thousands of victims who have linked up across the “The courts are supposed to pursue justice, and discipline and country tell me that it does not go all the way. Again, rehabilitate law-breakers. But there is a widespread loss of faith in more needs to be done. the sentencing process. Citizens do not believe that the courts All the differences that I have outlined are plain punish appropriately. Sentences often fail to reflect the crime and appear opaque…Criminal activity and punishment are too distantly wrong. The inequality in the system is wrong and so, linked in the minds of many criminals because of a cumbersome too, is the message that it sends to society and the local and bureaucratic trials and sentencing process.” community where many of the victims and perpetrators What the facts do not illustrate are the failings of the live side by side in adjacent streets. current judicial system. The criminal justice system needs better to take into account some of the impacts Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): that current procedures have on victims and their families. May I add to that on behalf of a constituent whose Such procedures include lenient sentencing for a guilty daughter was murdered? The family were forced to wait plea, lesser sentences for manslaughter, life not meaning to bury their daughter while the defence team went life and the right to appeal, when some appeals are through two post mortems over a very long period, with malicious. We should also consider some of the very all the delays involved in finding legal aid. Surely it real situations that I am about to explain, which demonstrate would be better in the case of murder to have two post why victims’ families find themselves in a lesser position mortems in the first place so that there could be no than perpetrators. doubt about the cause of death. Perhaps hon. Members can imagine for a moment Esther McVey: My hon. Friend raises a point that is being a member of a victim’s family. There is a knock made time and again: the pain and suffering caused to on the door, usually in the middle to the night, to say people when there must be a further autopsy on a that their child has been murdered. The family are left body—once, twice or three times. In those instances it is dealing with the shock and grieving the sudden and felt that the perpetrators of the crime get a better deal, tragic death of a loved one. They then have to arrange and the victims’ families are often left without adequate the burial while attending court. help and support. Such help and support are vital to There are stark differences between the treatment of enable them to come to terms with the horrific crimes, the perpetrators and the victims and their families. The the loss of loved ones and the complicated, drawn-out victims I have met, and who I know all too well, have to and distressing process that follows. travel to court by bus, whereas the murderers are driven The impact can be felt in many areas. It can be to and from court and are protected. Once in court, the financial, as family members may need breaks from perpetrator’s family is given a room in the court away employment so that they can recover. Some need extensive from the media and the victim’s family. However, the medical treatment, and some have to repair damage to victim’s family is frequently left to sit in corridors. homes and property as well. For others the cost is emotional. Many victims suffer from anxiety, the threat Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con): I congratulate my of victimisation, and deteriorating mental health. For hon. Friend on securing the debate. I know that she some the cost is physical. Many people in society, feels particularly strongly about this issue, and she has including me, question the leniency shown towards the raised some important issues. Far too often, particularly perpetrators of crime, which is juxtaposed to the in youth courts, which are closed courts, victims and psychological and financial cost that the victims and their families are wrongly excluded from attending the families must deal with. Jean Taylor will tell you that public gallery to watch the proceedings. There are also Governments have failed to do their job of supporting issues about access to the new virtual courts. I hope that victims of crime and their families. we can ensure that access to courts is improved for those victims and families who wish to watch the Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. May I gently proceedings, as in the cases that my hon. Friend outlined. remind the hon. Lady that when she says “you” she is referring to the occupant of the Chair. Esther McVey: My hon. Friend raises some pertinent points, and he is very experienced in this area, having Esther McVey: I apologise, Mrs Main. spent 20 years working in the justice system. It is often charities and voluntary organisations that To continue the list of differences, the perpetrator is provide help and support to victims—often with no provided with medical and professional psychiatric help, funding. whereas victims and their families must go on a lengthy So far I have discussed procedural inequalities that national health service waiting list just to see a counsellor. need to be addressed, but I want to move now to If a murderer dies in prison, his family will get up to consider policy areas. As times change, so must laws, to £3,000 to bury the body, while victims get a tiny percentage reflect the society and times we live in. I fully appreciate of that and have to wait many months to be paid. the delicate balance of laws, and the process of cause and effect involved in every situation when changes are Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I made to them, but I do not believe that fear of upsetting congratulate my hon. Friend on securing a debate on the balance is reason not to change them. To the contrary, such an important and emotive topic. Judges currently I believe that our society, with the increase in gang 69WH Rights of Victims and Families12 OCTOBER 2010 Rights of Victims and Families 70WH culture and antisocial behaviour, needs law that reflects Esther McVey: I thank my hon. Friend and entirely our times and the changes that have come about. I have believe that that is the case. There is a need for education three examples. about responsibilities and the consequences of actions. First, when the body of a murder victim is not Something that is frequently highlighted is the fact that discovered, despite a guilty plea, and the perpetrator the kids of the street know their rights but do not take never reveals its location, the family are deprived of a care of their responsibilities to themselves or their proper funeral, which leaves them unable to grieve community. We need to tell them that brutal, marauding properly; or they are left with the prospect of being gangs will not go unpunished. A clear message needs to confronted with the finding of the body in the future. I go out that silence and non-co-operation, so that an know that very few suspects have been convicted of ultimate perpetrator cannot be found, will not preclude murder in the absence of a body, but some have, and a conviction. have never revealed where the body is. Would it be So why are we here today? I acknowledge the current possible to charge someone with an extra offence of support systems, but the Government can and should non-disclosure of the whereabouts of the body? Otherwise do more to help the victims of crime, and their families. the coroner is deprived of the opportunity to do his job The effect of a loved one dying can be devastating for a properly, and the family are deprived of the opportunity family. It can be worse if the person’s life is taken to mourn the loss of a loved one. suddenly, by a member of the public, who might be Secondly, a person who has been found guilty of a known to the family and live close by. It can be made crime can be given the option to appeal against conviction much worse when the convicted prisoner is released or against the length of sentence, although the grounds from prison early, or when they can appeal against the for appeal may be arguable. I recognise that the appeal court’s decision, or plead guilty for a lenient sentence. process is an important part of the judicial system, but I Not only do victims’ families go through an ordeal in do not believe that victims’ rights in that situation are coming to terms with their bereavement; they are often given enough consideration. Not only do they go through let down by the judicial system, which adds further to a distressing, lengthy process; they may go through a their pain and suffering. A life has still been taken, and second. I wonder whether we could have a law of a sentence should reflect that, guilty plea or no guilty malicious appeal, to extend the sentence for people who plea. have been found undeniably guilty and who raise an The British crime survey reports that provisional appeal that will fail, to focus the mind of anyone who data show that police recorded 615 incidents of homicide brings such an appeal. Thus real appeals would go in 2009-10, and 588 attempted murders, which is a forward, but appeals that would not be deemed so 2% increase on the previous year’s figures. According to would not. the figures I read out earlier, provided by the Under- Thirdly, there are cases when a gang has killed a Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member person—and I want to refer to Andrew Jones, the for Huntingdon, the amount allocated to fund third young boy murdered by a group of teenagers, none of sector services for families bereaved by homicide is whom has ever been sentenced. I want law makers to £270,000. If that sum is divided by the number of think seriously about increasing the use of joint enterprise homicides for 2009-10 it gives £439.02 for each family. If sentences, by which a group could be sentenced, rather that is divided between an average family of four, it than all walking free. The law exists, and could be means each member would get just £109 for the loss of extended. At the same time, there is a need for education a loved one. That is without the extended family. That in schools on joint enterprise, and a clear understanding seems a very small sum of money, especially as many that, should anyone participate in crime in a gang, with family members need time to come to terms with the the intention to act as a gang, those involved would be loss. It is no wonder that the British crime survey found sentenced as a gang and held responsible for their joint that only 59.4% of people thought that the criminal actions. I appreciate that we do not want miscarriages justice system was, as a whole, fair. Even more worrying of justice, but the law needs to be modernised to is the fact that only 40.7% believed that the criminal accommodate the culture and climate in which we live. justice system as a whole was effective. The perpetrators of crime should not be allowed to Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): I congratulate get away with those procedural differences and to capitalise my hon. Friend on securing the debate. She talked on policy differences. We need a law that reflects the briefly about the role of education. Does she agree that society we live in today. there is a broader issue about how young people interact with the criminal justice system? In my previous profession 1.49 pm I saw many young people come into contact with the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice system at a young age, but they ended up on a kind of (Mr Crispin Blunt): I congratulate my hon. Friend the rollercoaster or in a revolving door, as nothing was ever Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey) on securing done, so their behaviour got progressively worse. this debate. I am well aware of the valuable work that she has done on the rights of the families of victims of Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. Will the hon. crime. The matter is complex and difficult to cover in Gentleman keep his remarks brief, as this is a half-hour debate, and my hon. Friend was extremely generous in debate and I am sure that the Minister wants to respond. giving way. Some interesting points were raised during those interventions, and I shall pick up on those before Andrew Percy: Of course; thank you, Mrs Main. coming to the substance of my reply. Does my hon. Friend agree that we need closer working My hon. Friend the Member for Dartford (Gareth between schools and the judicial process, to get the Johnson) made an interesting point about the families messages out to young people properly? of victims in youth courts. We are looking for a much 71WH Rights of Victims and Families12 OCTOBER 2010 Rights of Victims and Families 72WH

[Mr Crispin Blunt] To those who have never had dealings with it, the criminal justice system can seem daunting. That is more restorative system, and it would seem rather peculiar especially true for victims and their families, as they are if we were to exclude victims from the resulting court already suffering the emotional distress of crime. Dealing process. We shall certainly want to consider that idea. with the various agencies—the police, the Crown My hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham and Rainham Prosecution Service, the courts and probation—can (Rehman Chishti) spoke about victim impact statements seem confusing, but we have been working hard to and I shall return to that point in the main part of my ensure that the system provides the families of victims remarks. I note the sensible suggestion by my hon. with the support that they need. A number of schemes Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea have been designed to help guide victims and their Leadsom) about a requirement for two post-mortems families through the process, from the pre-charge and immediately. It is certainly one that we will ask to be police investigation stage, through sentencing to the examined. parole and release of the offender. Considerable support My right hon. Friend the Minister for Policing and is available from witness care units, family liaison officers Criminal Justice made considerable time available to and the victim liaison scheme. meet my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West and Witness care units are the result of collaboration Families Fighting for Justice, the support group from between the police and the CPS. They provide dedicated her constituency to which she referred. Mrs Jean Taylor teams in each area, and their function is to keep victims followed up that meeting in a letter to my right hon. and witnesses—and in serious cases, their families—updated Friend, which covered personal suggestions from members on the criminal proceedings. They are staffed by police of that group. I do not have time to refer to all those and CPS officials, and work closely with both agencies. letters, but I shall read an extract from a letter from A. Witness care units serve as a single point of contact Williams, who said: from the charging of the suspect to the conclusion of “What would the government think of prisoners of murder or the trial. They are responsible for ensuring that victims manslaughter paying compensation to the victims families from know whether they must attend court; they inform the wages that they earn in prison…The victims human rights victims if there are any changes in proceedings; and were taken away the day that they were killed and the families they are the first port of call for victims and their certainly do not get justice, we live a life sentence until we go to families if they have specific questions. Witness care our graves, (not just for the term of a prison sentence), it breaks up families, it makes us ill and won’t let us out of the dark place units deal with the vast majority of cases that progress that we live in. Instead of us working and paying taxes to feed the past the decision to charge. prisoners and giving them privileges would it not be better if they In more serious cases, such as homicide or sexual worked to give us, the victims families something back. It works violence, or if the victim is under 18, the police will in other countries, why not here?” often assign a specialist family liaison officer. That In that suggestion, there are some important principles person is a specially trained police officer, who acts as a about restoration from offenders to victims—ones that single point of contact for bereaved families. That officer my hon. Friend will have heard in the Justice Secretary’s will be on call to answer questions, to explain the speech at the Conservative party conference. We are process and to support the family until the trial, providing actively exploring them, which I hope will bring some dedicated, one-to-one support. comfort to the members of Families Fighting for Justice. We are well aware, however, that the needs of victims Crime can have a devastating impact, not only on the and their families do not disappear the moment that a victim but on the victim’s family and loved ones. Support judge hands down a sentence. Families of homicide is given to the families when the crime has been extremely victims or vulnerable victims often want to be kept serious—when a victim has died, or when the victim is updated with the progress of the offender’s sentence. young or vulnerable. I give my deepest sympathies to They want to know whether the person who has caused those who have suffered such a bereavement, or who such distress is awaiting parole, or being released on have been through the trauma of caring for a vulnerable licence. The victim liaison service provides victims with victim of crime. It is in such terrible cases that the a means of being kept informed as the offender’s sentence families play their largest role in the criminal justice progresses, and of opportunities to make representations system, and it is in precisely those cases that guidance, on issues relating to their safety in the event of the participation, and practical and emotional support are prisoner being released. most vital. The victim liaison service is the responsibility of local The Government are committed to placing victims probation trusts, which have a statutory duty to identify and their families at the front and at the centre of the and contact the victims of offenders convicted of violent criminal justice system. We are committed to ensuring or sexual offences who are sentenced to imprisonment that criminal justice agencies work to help families for 12 months or more, and the victims of certain through the process; we are committed to providing mentally disordered offenders. Victims who want to be families with a voice in the criminal justice system; and part of the scheme are allocated a dedicated, specially we are committed to providing them with the support trained victim liaison officer. That officer listens to and help that they need to deal with the consequences victims’ concerns, and may be able to provide information of crime. on other local services. If victims take up the service, they will be told about the offender’s sentence and what Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): Will my hon. Friend it means, and updated on key developments in the give way? sentence such as if an offender is moved to an open prison or released. When an offender is coming to the Mr Blunt: I shall not give way, if my hon. Friend will end of the sentence, the victim or the victim’s family forgive me, as I am short of time. can raise any concerns about the release; they can also 73WH Rights of Victims and Families12 OCTOBER 2010 Rights of Victims and Families 74WH request licence conditions, such as those forbidding the Esther McVey: I know that we are in the closing offender to contact them or enter the area where they minutes of this debate, but may I ask that the procedural live. and policy changes mentioned today are considered in On giving the families a voice, it is important not only your review of the justice system? to help families through the process and keep them informed but to give them the opportunity to become Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. I remind the involved if they wish. This country has a system of hon. Lady that it is not my review of the criminal justice common law that pits the accused against the state. system but the Minister’s. Unlike in some civil law systems, in ours victims and their families are not automatically a party to a criminal Mr Blunt: I am grateful, Mrs Main, for that clarification. trial. Here, the state brings the charges, the state prosecutes My hon. Friend is aware that because of her generosity the accused and the state ensures that the sentence is in taking interventions I shall not be able to finish my carried out. However, it does not mean a victim or the prepared remarks. However, I shall consider carefully family should be excluded from the process. We should what she has said. Indeed, she has repeated here the operate a system under which we do things with victims, points that she made directly to my right hon. Friend not to them. the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice, so they are already included in the process and are being considered. When courts are considering sentencing, victims and their families should be heard, and the often terrible I was going to speak about Victim Support’s homicide consequences of the crime upon families should be service, an important development that began in April considered. To that end, families are able to make a this year. We hope that it will provide a high-quality victim personal statement. That statement was first service that reflects the wishes and needs of the bereaved. piloted in 1996, and has since been implemented nationally. We are reviewing the services currently available to It works like a witness statement, and is usually collected witnesses, victims and their families in the criminal by the police. It provides the victims or, in the case of justice system. As part of our commitment to restorative homicide, the victim’s family, with an opportunity to justice, and to the big society, we want to ensure that describe to the court the impact of the crime upon their victims are a focus not an afterthought. lives. Seriousness has two components—harm and culpability—and if the personal statement shows that 2pm significant harm was caused to the victim, the sentencer Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order can decide on a higher level of seriousness. No. 10 (11)).

9WS Written Ministerial Statements12 OCTOBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 10WS

balance of protection, weight and agility for a vehicle of Written Ministerial its class. The vehicle is a new design developed specifically to meet the requirements of UK armed forces, and is Statements only now possible due to the considerable investment by the Ministry of Defence and UK Industry in this technology.LPPV is a UK design, and will be manufactured Tuesday 12 October 2010 in the UK, creating or sustaining over 750 UK jobs. LPPV is also ideally placed to take advantage of the BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS export market, which the Government are fully committed to supporting. Higher Education (Student Finance)

The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and HEALTH Skills (Vince Cable): Lord Browne of Madingley today presented the Government with the findings of the independent review of higher education funding and NHS Constitution (Whistleblowing) student finance. The review was tasked with making recommendations to Government on the future of fees policy and financial The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): support for full and part-time undergraduate and On 9 June I made a statement to the House about the postgraduate students in England. failings of the Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust, The report is the culmination of months of diligent Official Report, column 333. I made clear my intention inquiry by Lord Browne and his panel of experts. They to hold a full public inquiry into how these failings have have taken evidence from a wide range of people including continued unchallenged and undetected for so long. students, the higher education sector and business. A culture of fear and secrecy had pervaded this trust, We will judge their recommendations against the leaving its staff feeling unable to raise concerns. Therefore, criteria set out in the coalition agreement, including the I set out action needed prior to the publication of the need to: inquiry’s findings in March 2011. Specifically, I made increase social mobility; clear that I intended to initiate work on whistleblowing, take into account the impact on student debt; to improve conditions and procedures for those who ensure a properly funded university sector; wished to raise concerns. improve the quality of teaching; Today, I am launching a public consultation on advance scholarship; and amendments to the NHS constitution and its handbook, attract a higher proportion of students from disadvantaged which are concerned with making clear the rights and backgrounds. responsibilities of NHS staff and their employers in I am placing a copy of the report in the Libraries of respect of whistleblowing. both Houses. Copies will also be available from both the The consultation proposes three key changes: Vote and Printed Paper Office. Electronic copies are highlighting existing legal rights of all staff to raise concerns available on the BIS website. about safety, malpractice or other wrongdoing without suffering I intend to respond to the report in an oral statement any detriment; to the House at 3.30pm today. introduce an NHS pledge that employers will support all staff in raising such concerns, responding to and where necessary investigating the concerns raised; and DEFENCE create an expectation that NHS staff will raise concerns about safety, malpractice or wrongdoing at work which may Light Protected Patrol Vehicle (Preferred Bidder) affect patients, the public, other staff or the organisation itself as early as possible. Responses from all interested parties are welcome. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence The consultation and response form have been placed (Peter Luff): I am pleased to announce the successful in the Library and copies are available to hon. Members outcome of the light protected patrol vehicle (LPPV) in the Vote Office. The documents can also be found at: competition for a new vehicle to replace the existing http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Consultations/ Snatch Land Rovers and Weapons Mount Installation Liveconsultations/index.htm. Kit (WMIK) vehicles on operations in Afghanistan. The consultation closes on 11 January 2011. Following a rigorous trial and assessment phase, preferred bidder status has been awarded to Force Protection I am pleased to say that this consultation follows Europe for an initial tranche of 200 vehicles, subject to significant progress already made on whistleblowing successful completion of contract negotiations. This since June. On 25 June 2010 new guidance was published initial tranche will be procured through the urgent for the NHS, developed through the social partnership operational requirements process, and we expect the forum (SPF) with expert support and advice from the first vehicles to be delivered for training in 2011. Further independent whistleblowing charity Public Concern at buys of LPPV will be subject to the confirmation of our Work. wider requirement, which will be confirmed by the Designed to support NHS organisations who are in strategic defence and security review and defence planning the process of updating or creating whistleblowing policies round. Force Protection Europe’s vehicle represents and procedures, the guidance promotes best practice. It leading edge technology and will provide an unprecedented suggests simple steps to help NHS organisations ensure 11WS Written Ministerial Statements12 OCTOBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 12WS their whistleblowing arrangements are fit for purpose. UK’s new commitment to save the lives of at least The guidance can be found on the Department’s website at: 50,000 women in pregnancy and childbirth, 250,000 www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ newborn babies and enable 10 million couples to access PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_4050929. modern methods of family planning over the next five In addition, the NHS Staff Council has negotiated years. changes to the terms and conditions of service handbook With the support of UK leadership, the event generated for NHS staff covered by Agenda for Change, to include an unprecedented $40 billion in resources for maternal a contractual right and duty to raise concerns in the and child health. As important as the financial commitments public interest. A circular to NHS organisations informing was the wide range of partners that came behind the them of these changes was published on 13 September strategy.Developing countries were prominent: Afghanistan 2010 with immediate effect. Both these are available on and Yemen pledged to increase access to family planning the NHS employers website at: and safe births, and Nigeria committed to spend a share www.nhsemployers.org/PayAndContracts/Pay%20circulars/ of oil revenues on healthcare. Significant new commitments Agenda-for-Change/Pages/2010.aspx. also came from the private sector (Johnson & Johnson committed $200 million over the next five years), charities. NGOs (World Vision International committed $1.5 billion HOME DEPARTMENT over five years) and international organisations. The UK also co-hosted a high profile side event on Animal Procedures Committee Annual Report malaria, which challenged leaders from both rich and poor countries to do more to save lives needlessly lost every day to this disease. The event succeeded in generating The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the impressive new support. I announced our commitments Home Department (Lynne Featherstone): In accordance to help halve the number of deaths caused by malaria in with section 20(5) of the Animals (Scientific Procedures) at least 10 African countries by 2015 by increasing Act 1986, the Committee’s annual report for 2009 has access to malaria prevention, diagnostics and treatment today been laid before the House. Copies are available backed by an increase in funding up to £500 million per in the Vote Office. The report includes details of: year by 2014. A Committee report and Minister’s response on appropriate I also announced the UK’s support for the scaling up methods of humane killing for fish. nutrition (SUN) “1,000 days” campaign at a side event A Committee report and Minister’s response to the strengths co-hosted by Hilary Clinton. This initiative and the and weaknesses of the current system of severity limits as a nutrition leaders group which will help drive this forward. way of prospectively assessing suffering and severity. Committee correspondence on progress with the revision of UK leadership was also commended for its increased Directive 86/609. focus on results and mutual accountability. The UK The Committees programme of work for 2010 onwards. pressed and secured an annual review mechanism as part of the summit’s outcome document. Work is under way to record all of the policy and financial commitments, INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT not just from Governments, made at the summit. There was a clear commitment from the Ban Ki-moon to UN Millennium Development Goals Summit ensure that all sides will be held accountable. The summit ended with the formal adoption of the outcome document “Keeping the Promise: United to The Secretary of State for International Development Achieve the Millennium Development Goals”—a copy (Mr Andrew Mitchell): The Deputy Prime Minister and of which will be placed in the Library of the House of I represented the UK at the United Nations millennium Commons. This important document sets out a path development goals summit which took place on towards meeting the MDGs, giving a lifeline to millions 20-22 September 2010. World leaders, civil society of the world’s poorest people. The UK Government are organisations and prominent business leaders gathered now focused on ensuring that we and our partners to agree the action needed to meet the millennium around the world maximise our efforts to reach the development goals by 2015 and lift millions of people millennium development goals in the next five years out of poverty. and live up to our promises to the world’s poorest The UK’s main objective for the summit was to people. secure renewed momentum in the global fight against poverty and to agree an ambitious approach to reaching Pakistan Floods the millennium development goals by 2015. It was an opportunity to reinforce the UK’s reputation as a serious and committed world leader on development. The Deputy The Secretary of State for International Development Prime Minister reiterated the UK’s commitment to (Mr Andrew Mitchell): I would like to update the House reaching 0.7% of GNI in aid from 2013 and challenged on the humanitarian situation in Pakistan following the others to live up to their promises. floods and on the UK Government’s response. The UK focused its efforts on securing a major push It is now nearly two months since the floods hit. The on the most off-track millennium development goals, situation, particularly in Southern Sindh province, continues particularly women’s and children’s health. UN Secretary- to be extremely difficult. Some 7.3 million people there General’s Ban Ki-moon’s Every Woman Every Child have been affected. Of this total, 2.3 million people are event launched a global strategy aimed at saving the in need of immediate assistance. Significant shortfalls lives of more than 16 million women and children. continue in the distribution of relief across all sectors At the event the Deputy Prime Minister set out the and capacity to respond is stretched. The World Food 13WS Written Ministerial Statements12 OCTOBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 14WS

Programme continues to drop food rations by air and ground, and will be subject to thorough monitoring and public buildings such as schools still house tens of evaluation. None of the resources pledged for relief will thousands of people. The full extent of loss and damage be channelled through the Government of Pakistan in may not be known for several weeks as many areas line with standard humanitarian practice. remain under water. My Department has already begun to allocate the In other areas of Pakistan, the situation is mixed. In additional funding. In recognition of the ongoing emergency Punjab, the majority of the 5.3 million people affected needs of flood-affected people in Southern Sindh, we have now returned to their home areas and the focus is are aiming to address the emergency health and water beginning to shift from emergency relief to early recovery. and sanitation needs of approximately 500,000 people In Khyber Paktunkwha most of the 3.8 million people through international and local NGOs at a cost of up to affected have returned home and are beginning to rebuild £8 million. I am also pleased to announce that we plan their lives. Approximately 1 million internally displaced to help meet the immediate agriculture needs of persons are gradually returning to Sindh from Balochistan. approximately 850,000 vulnerable people in Punjab, The monsoon season is now drawing to a close and Sindh and Balochistan and the critical winter rabi cropping snow has already been reported in the northern window in late October-November, at a cost of some mountainous regions reflecting the seasonal change to £7 million. winter. Our commitment to the people of Pakistan remains a The scale and shifting patterns of both displacement long-term one. The UK will continue to play a leading and return means it remains a challenge to achieve the role in encouraging others in the international community necessary pace and scale of response. The UN continues to step up to the mark. The UK was instrumental in to build up its surge capacity and improve co-ordination. securing a commitment at the European Council on NGOs are beginning to improve their reach in Sindh 16 September to develop ambitious trade measures for province. The Government of Pakistan are responding Pakistan, including the immediate reduction of import through the relevant provincial disaster management duties and improved longer-term access to EU markets authorities and are still delivering relief through the through generalised system of preferences (GSP+). Pakistan military in Sindh province. The floods require an exceptional response from the Meeting the remaining emergency relief and early Government of Pakistan as well as from the international recovery needs of the critically affected population remains community. At the forthcoming Pakistan Development our immediate priority. To date UKAid has helped Forum the Government of Pakistan should set out approximately: plans for growth and economic reform as well as 900,000 people receive health care services; reconstruction. The credibility of these plans will determine how donors respond to future reconstruction and 620,000 people receive clean drinking water; development needs. 425,000 people benefit from the distribution of over 60,000 hygiene kits; 1 million people receive hygiene awareness sessions; Reform of CDC Group plc 420,000 people benefit from shelter kits; and 36,000 and 48,000 pregnant and lactating women receive The Secretary of State for International Development nutritional supplements. (Mr Andrew Mitchell): I wish to inform the House of Given the changing nature of the situation support is the Government’s decision to reconfigure CDC in order now needed to help Pakistan recover from the floods. radically to increase its development impact. On 17 September, the United Nations launched a revised CDC has the potential to be the jewel in the crown of plan to provide a framework for remaining emergency the UK’s support to the private sector in developing relief needs, but also to help up to 14 million people get countries. In the past, when its expertise was more back on their feet and recover from the floods. The total developmentally than financially focused, its record of funding requirement stands at just over US$2 billion achieving investment returns was at best uneven. (£1.3 billion) over the next 12 months. Subsequently, the balance has tipped too far the other The revised UN plan was discussed at a high level way. CDC now needs to reinvigorate its development UN meeting on 19 September in New York. At that DNA and marry this together with business know-how meeting I announced an additional £70 million of funding and financial discipline. It must strive towards both to help meet remaining emergency relief needs and in development and financial gains. particular to support the people of Pakistan to rebuild As a fund of funds, CDC has in some ways been a their lives. UK funding will help revive agriculture, remarkable success. In terms of financial performance, provide temporary education facilities to get children we applaud the achievement of turning £1 billion into back into school and help people rebuild their communities £2.5 billion since 2004. But CDC has become less and provide short-term employment opportunities. This directly engaged in serving the needs of development. brings the UK’s total contribution to £134 million, in Using public capital CDC pursued the narrowly defined addition to the £60 million raised through the generosity private sector goals for which it was incentivised and of the UK public through the Disasters Emergency this meant the greatest return for the least risk. This was Committee (DEC) appeal. not consistent with concentrating its efforts in the regions of greatest development need. I would like to emphasise to the House the Government’s commitment to ensuring transparency and value for We will create a revitalised CDC with a great deal money. Funding allocations will continue to be made more clarity and ambition over what it does and where on the basis of rigorous assessments of needs on the it works. 15WS Written Ministerial Statements12 OCTOBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 16WS

Specifically, I shall propose that CDC reduce new by remuneration that is fair and appropriate, but not commitments to future third-party funds and consider excessive. As part of the consultation, I will consider the benefits of liquidating some of its existing investments what that remuneration structure should be. where this can be done on attractive terms. We will not I shall make a further announcement early next year end commitments to new third-party funds since they and CDC will reflect the necessary changes in the can be the most appropriate way to mobilise funding in business plan which they will publish in the spring. some countries and for some investment purposes. But the fund of funds model should make up no more than part of a new, broader and more actively managed portfolio. TRANSPORT CDC should regain its power to make investments directly in target countries. This could be done through Eco-driving Training co-investment with other sources of capital where, by doing so, CDC would make possible desirable investments The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport which could not otherwise be made. (Mike Penning): The Department for Transport has In addition to regaining greater investment control, today published its response to the consultation on CDC should be committed to participating through a options to increase the uptake of eco-driving training wider range of vehicles, including investment in debt for drivers of large goods vehicles and passenger carrying instruments and the provision of guarantees. Greater vehicles. flexibility will enable it to build a more diversified Consistent with the Government’s deregulation agenda portfolio in terms of risk, maturity and liquidity. I have decided not to make eco-driving training a mandatory part of the driver certificate of professional competence I should like CDC also to develop a more active at this time. approach to portfolio management. Its purpose is to invest in the poorest countries or sectors where capital I will instead respond to industry assurances that is otherwise not available—to provide patient capital to they have the will to increase uptake of eco-driving finance and kick-start private investment in the most training without direct Government intervention, and difficult regions. will encourage and support industry-led initiatives to improve fuel efficiency and tackle carbon emissions, of CDC also needs more financial firepower. It needs to which a number have emerged as a result of this try to find liquidity for its investments so that capital consultation. can be recycled more quickly to new targets. We are also In 2012 the Department will review the level of uptake exploring how CDC could regain its power to borrow. of eco-driving training and fuel savings resulting both This would give CDC the ability to move more quickly from these industry-led initiatives and from voluntary and more effectively. uptake as part of the driver CPC and will reconsider the CDC must continue to show that it is improving the case for Government intervention. way in which firms in the poorest countries operate, and I have placed copies of the consultation response that it monitors and demands improvements in the document and associated impact assessment in the Libraries conditions under which people work. CDC must also of both Houses. continue to demand more effective treatment of environmental issues, more transparency and a rigorous approach to corruption. WORK AND PENSIONS These reforms will enable CDC to become a distinctive, innovative and differentiated development finance Right to Control Regulations institution, with clearly measurable development impact and additionality, and new commitments targeted throughout sub-Saharan Africa and the poorer parts of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work Asia. I want CDC to be more pro-poor focused than and Pensions (Maria Miller): On 25 February 2010 the any other development finance institution, doing the Right to Control trailblazer sites were announced and a hardest things in the hardest places. national consultation on the Right to Control draft regulations, “Making choice and control a reality for Identifying the sectors on which CDC should focus disabled people: consultation on the Right to Control in future is a complex area. The correlation between trailblazer regulations”, was published. investment and poverty reduction is not straight forward. We have worked closely with disabled people and The Government want to listen to a wide range of their organisations to develop the Right to Control, and views before taking any decisions. CDC and DFID will continue to do so. Our advisory group, chaired by commission independent studies which will be made Baroness Jane Campbell, has co-produced both the public on the DFID website and my Department is also policy and the draft regulations. launching a consultation, outline details of which will be available on Wednesday 13 October. The consultation period finished on 26 May 2010, with 34 responses received in total from trailblazer sites, Regaining greater power over the investment of capital disability organisations and individual disabled people. needs to be staged carefully, will take time, and will need The responses received have helped us ensure that our resources of human capital additional to the dedicated trailblazers are supported by the most appropriate people working for CDC at the moment. CDC must regulations possible. Today, with the publication of our attract people of the highest calibre, who are passionate Government response to coincide with the laying of our about pro-poor investment and whose expertise is rewarded draft regulations in Parliament, we are getting closer to 17WS Written Ministerial Statements12 OCTOBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 18WS achieving our aim of providing disabled people with the council has withdrawn from being a trailblazer site. choice and control they have told us they want. There have recently been significant management changes We are phasing the introduction of the Right to within the council and they now feel the need to dedicate Control in trailblazer areas to ensure the best possible existing available resources to other priority areas within service will be provided to disabled people. The majority adult services. of the sites will start to offer the Right to Control from The Government response to the Right to Control 13 December, with two of the more complex trailblazers, regulations consultation “Making choice and control a the Sheffield city council and Barnsley metropolitan reality for disabled people: Government response to borough council joint trailblazer, and the Greater consultation on the Right to Control trailblazer regulations” Manchester consortium, commencing on 1 March and can be viewed and downloaded from the Office of 1 April 2011 respectively. Disability Issues website at: www.odi.gov.uk/right-to- Since the initial announcement of the sites piloting control. Copies of the document will also be placed in the Right to Control, Redcar and Cleveland borough the House Libraries.

5P Petitions12 OCTOBER 2010 Petitions 6P

And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Gareth Petition Johnson, Official Report, 13 September 2010; Vol. 515, c. 711.] Tuesday 12 October 2010 [P000859] Observations from the Secretary of State for Transport: The Government have not yet made any decisions OBSERVATIONS regarding the future ownership of the Dartford Crossing. I understand that several key factors need to be considered in the decision-making process including TRANSPORT whether a new concession structure would provide better Dartford Crossing value for the taxpayer, the flexibility needed to provide possible additional crossing capacity in the future, and The Petition of residents of North Kent how user charging policies would be affected. Declares that the petitioners believe that the Dartford The Budget statement (22 June), confirmed that decisions Crossing should not be sold or privatised. will be made on the possibility of providing future The Petitioners therefore request that the House of additional crossing capacity and the possibilities for Commons urges the Government to ensure that the letting out a concession at the conclusion of the spending Dartford Crossing remains in public ownership. review.

257W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 258W

INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY Written Answers to STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE

Questions Apex Communications

Tueday 12 October 2010 Mr Liddell-Grainger: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, TRANSPORT how much Apex Communications was paid for its work in establishing the Independent Parliamentary Severn Bridges Tolls Standards Authority; and what its remit was. [15732]

Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Mr Charles Walker: Apex Communications were paid for Transport if he will commission an independent £69,375 for work conducted over the period October review of the effects on the economy of Wales of the 2009—July 2010. Apex was commissioned to provide a Severn Bridges tolls. [17089] press office capability to deal with a high level of media interest and to organise activities. Apex then helped to Mike Penning: The Welsh Affairs Committee and the establish and support IPSA’s small in-house communications Welsh Assembly Government are both undertaking reviews team. While the process of recruiting a director of of the effects on the economy of Wales of the Severn communications was undertaken, they continued to Bridges’ tolls. Both are due to report back with their provide practical help and strategic communication advice findings next year. I will consider the findings of these to IPSA through to July 2010. reports and do not see a need for a further review at this time. Calyx (UK)

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Mr Liddell-Grainger: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, representing the Speaker’s Committee for Local Government: Pay the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, how many responses the Independent Parliamentary Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for Standards Authority received to the invitation to Communities and Local Government if he will take tender for which Calyx (UK) was shortlisted; what the steps to moderate the level of local authority chief criteria were for the contract; and what the executive and senior officer (a) salaries and (b) early specification was for the system. [15727] retirement payments; if he will place restrictions on such people taking new jobs at a senior level in the Mr Charles Walker: In total three responses were public sector within a specified period of taking early received to the invitation to tender for the Enterprise retirement; and if he will make a statement. [16332] Solution and three for the Infrastructure Solution. Robert Neill [holding answer 11 October 2010]: Decisions The assessment criteria for the procurement exercise about the salaries of local authority chief executives were: and senior officers, and any early retirement payments Ability to provide a requirements compliance traceability document. which either fall within the appropriate pay negotiating Ability to provide an executive summary including an overview machinery, or the appropriate regulatory framework of the solution and the associated perceived costs. are matters for each local authority employer to consider Ability to provide details of their organisation. in the light of local circumstances. While the specific terms and conditions of current and future employment Ability to provide details of how their solution meets all functional and non functional requirements. is a matter for the relevant local authority to consider, the Secretary of State has recently called for the most Ability to provide details of reference sites. senior local government officers to take a voluntary Ability to provide full details of the whole life cost including: reduction in pay and also stated that no new council Software license capital costs chief executive should be paid more than the Prime Technical architecture costs Minister. Initial implementation costs The Government’s view is that there needs to be Annual costs associated with ongoing support greater local democratic accountability and transparency over senior remuneration arrangements and policies Suitable contingency plans detailed in the event of non-delivery. within local government. In order to achieve this, the Behaviours of the suppliers and cultural fit with IPSA. Government intend to bring forward proposals to ensure Capability to deliver to required dates. that councillors are better able to be held to account for Creation of a web based access point for MPs and their staff. their decisions on senior pay by providing them with the Capability to publish data early and a flexible approach. power to vote on their council’s remuneration policies. On senior pay transparency, the Local Government Outsourcing costs and implications. Association (LGA) recently published draft guidance Strong data security, both internal and nationally. to support councils publish their senior salary information An architectural overview of the online expense system online. The guidance was published on 1 October and can be found on the following website: can be viewed and commented on at: http://www.systemsatwork.co.uk/download/content/PDF/ http://lgtransparency.readandcomment.com/ expense@work%20Architectural%20Overview.pdf 259W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 260W

GovGap Where more than one MP travels in the same car, only one of the MPs may submit a claim for the cost of the journey. Mr Liddell-Grainger: To ask the hon. Member for MPs may claim for the cost of an evening meal when they are required to be at the House of Commons because the House is Broxbourne, representing the Speaker’s Committee for sitting late but the meal does not need to be eaten on the the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, Parliamentary Estate. how many staff members have been supplied to the MPs may claim Travel and Subsistence Expenses for the cost of Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority by an overnight hotel for a member of their staff, where the staff Govgap since May 2010; and at what cost to the member has necessarily travelled in assisting the MP in his or her Authority. [15728] Parliamentary functions, or in undertaking relevant training. MPs may claim reimbursement for subsistence expenses for Mr Charles Walker: Two temporary staff members their staff members if the staff member necessarily stays overnight were provided for a short period by GovGap. This was in a hotel to assist the MP in his or her Parliamentary functions, at a cost to IPSA of £22,036 excluding VAT. or if the staff member is undertaking training. MPs may submit claims for the incidental expenses of interns Manpower and volunteers. Pay Mr Liddell-Grainger: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, Mr Liddell-Grainger: To ask the hon. Member for how many people at each pay band there are in the Broxbourne, representing the Speaker’s Committee for policy unit of the Independent Parliamentary the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority Standards Authority. [15943] how much has been spent under each budgetary heading on expenses for each member of the board of Mr Charles Walker: There are four members of staff the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority in in the policy team in the following pay bands. each month of its operation; and for what purpose in each case. [14621] Pay bands (£) Persons Mr Charles Walker: Since IPSA began operations, Senior civil service pay 58,200-117,750 1 only Sir Scott Baker has claimed expenses. These were band 1 all for travel on IPSA business. The months and amounts IPSA Grade E 46,000-61,500 1 are detailed as follows. IPSA Grade D 35,000-46,000 1 IPSA Grade C 30,500-37,000 1 £

Members: Allowances June 65.80 May 44.30 August 48.10 Mr Liddell-Grainger: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, Mr Liddell-Grainger: To ask the hon. Member for pursuant to the answer to Question 14306, on changes Broxbourne, representing the Speaker’s Committee for to the rules and procedures of the Independent the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority Parliamentary Standards Authority, how many how much each member of the communications team changes there have been to the rules and procedures of the Independent Parliamentary Standards implemented by the Independent Parliamentary Authority receives in (a) salary and (b) benefits. Standards Authority since its inception; and what the [15729] changes were which were made to the expenses scheme in July 2010. [15731] Mr Charles Walker: One member of the communications team receives a salary within the range £45,000-50,000, Mr Charles Walker: As per the answer of 13 September and the other member of the communications team 2010, Official Report, column 741W, a small number of receives a salary within the range £30,000-£35,000. The changes to the MPs’ Expenses Scheme were introduced benefits received are similar to those offered by many in July 2010, following the consultation required by the employers—such as 25 days annual leave, pension Parliamentary Standards Act. The changes are detailed contributions and the offer of a season ticket loan. in “The MPs’ Expenses Scheme: Second Edition”, which has been made available to all MPs and is available on: Mr Liddell-Grainger: To ask the hon. Member for www.parliamentarystandards.org.uk Broxbourne, representing the Speaker’s Committee for The changes are also detailed as follows: the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority how much the Director of Communications for the MPs who own their own property, but are not claiming a Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority will mortgage interest subsidy, can now claim associated expenditure (e.g. bills). receive in (a) salary and (b) benefits in 2010-11. [15730] MPs who are eligible for Accommodation Expenses can claim for journeys between any point in the constituency (or a home or office within 20 miles of their constituency) and Westminster or a Mr Charles Walker: The Director of Communications London Area home. will receive a salary within the range £75,000-£80,000. For air travel, reimbursement is limited to the rate of an The benefits received are similar to those offered by economy, or flexible economy, class ticket for the same journey at many employers, such as 25 days annual leave, pension the time of booking. contributions and the offer of a season ticket loan. 261W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 262W

Telephone Services: Manpower Charles Hendry: As with all public spending, funding for offshore wind manufacturing infrastructure is being Mr Spellar: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, reviewed in the context of the spending review. representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Administrative arrangements in connection with DECC Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, on policies will be finalised in the light of the outcomes of average how many employees staff the hon. Members’ the spending review; announcements on the spending enquiry line each day; and how many such employees review will be made on 20 October. staffed that enquiry line on 10 September 2010. [15903] Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Charles Walker: The IPSA core Information Line Energy and Climate Change what plans he has for the is staffed, on average, by five people. On 10 September, future funding of the Offshore Wind Site Development it was staffed by four people. Competition. [17015] Charles Hendry: All future funding plans for the ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Department are a part of the ongoing spending review. Announcements on the spending review will be made Energy: Prices on 20 October. Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change if he will bring forward HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION proposals for minimum standards for energy tariffs in his Department’s Energy Security and Green Economy Bars: Prices Bill; and if he will make a statement. [17186] Mr Spellar: To ask the hon. Member for Charles Hendry: Providing customers with information Middlesbrough, representing the House of Commons about their supplier’s cheapest tariff is about giving Commission, what the difference is between the them the information they need to take control of wholesale and retail price of a pint of Guinness sold in household energy costs. We are working on the details each House of Commons catering outlet. [15900] of this proposal, but we are clear that cheapest tariff information needs to be presented in a straightforward Sir Stuart Bell: The difference between the wholesale and meaningful way to consumers. price and the retail price of a pint of Guinness in all Ofgem has recently introduced new over arching outlets is £1.49. standards to prevent the selling of products that are inappropriate to a customer’s needs or offer products that are unnecessarily complex or confusing. EDUCATION In a recent open letter to suppliers, Ofgem, reminded suppliers of their obligations under these standards. A Academies: Equality copy of this letter is available online at: http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/Markets/RetMkts/ensuppro/ Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for Documents1/Open_letter%20on%20transparency.pdf Education whether he has sought advice from the Equality and Human Rights Commission on the likely Feed-in Tariffs effects of the implementation of the proposals in the Academies Bill on (a) black pupils, (b) Asian pupils, Andrew Bridgen: To ask the Secretary of State for (c) pupils from a mixed ethnic background, (d) girls Energy and Climate Change if he will take steps to and (e) pupils with special educational needs. [9692] change the rules of feed-in tariffs so those who installed microgenerators before 15 July 2009 will Mr Gibb [holding answer 19 July 2010]: The Secretary benefit to the same extent as those who installed of State did not seek advice from the Equality and microgenerators after this date. [14837] Human Rights Commission on the likely effects of the implementation of the proposals in the Academies Bill Gregory Barker: Since the establishment of the coalition on the groups of pupils mentioned in the question. Government, we have been looking at several aspects of The evidence, both from Academies programme and the feed-in tariff scheme, including the treatment of from similar programmes in other countries, shows that installations commissioned before the announcement all pupils benefit when schools are given greater freedoms. of the scheme. After careful consideration, we have concluded that the scheme as it relates to these early Academies: Finance adopters should remain unchanged. Generators who had installed before 15 July 2009 will not be eligible for Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for the full rate of FITs, but those that benefited from the Education what his estimate is of the amount of renewables obligation will continue to be supported at additional funding that new academy schools will an equivalent rate. receive (a) nationally and (b) broken down by local authority area. [5215] Wind Power Mr Gibb: The additional funding received by new Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for academy schools is intended to ensure that they are no Energy and Climate Change when he plans to open the better or worse off than they were as maintained schools, Offshore Wind Site Development Competition; and having regard to their additional responsibilities. It will what arrangements have been made for the consist of a grant to meet VAT costs, and a grant administration of that competition. [17014] known as Local Authority Central Spend Equivalent 263W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 264W

Grant (LACSEG) which is paid in lieu of certain local SEN LACSEG authority (LA) services. The amounts payable on a LA name LACSEG FY10-11 FY10-11 national basis will depend on the number of schools Pri Sec Pri Sec converting in each area. The VAT grant is a fixed percentage of the General Annual Grant paid to academies, St Helens 387 410 354 343 the current percentages being 4.13% (Inner London), Sefton 354 308 323 292 3.62% (Outer London) and 3.54% (elsewhere). The Wirral 374 473 276 192 grant is calculated by using historical data on schools’ Bolton 429 328 184 110 expenditure to derive a typical proportion of spend that Bury 440 276 — — attracts VAT. Manchester 460 468 130 134 Oldham 297 323 217 265 The table shows the amount per pupil of the grant in Rochdale 392 442 404 284 lieu of LA services, for each LA, expressed for the Salford 494 507 162 472 financial year 2010-11. Differences in the amounts reflect Stockport 275 454 356 471 varying levels of delegation of funding. In some but not Tameside 551 518 137 153 all LAs an amount for SEN services is also payable for Trafford 264 296 479 431 relevant pupils and this is shown separately. Wigan 365 359 270 273 New academy schools will also receive funding for Barnsley 593 633 — — insurance and rates at actual cost. Doncaster 391 438 81 86 Rotherham 394 411 212 223 SEN LACSEG Sheffield 426 396 273 267 LA name LACSEG FY10-11 FY10-11 Bradford 404 397 188 138 Pri Sec Pri Sec Calderdale 468 472 83 87 Camden 721 663 148 143 Kirklees 621 593 179 134 Greenwich 542 522 40 68 Leeds 396 441 32 18 Hackney 714 943 — — Wakefield 542 543 534 360 Hammersmith and 659 679 — — Gateshead 599 699 218 273 Fulham Newcastle upon Tyne 516 541 158 40 Islington 986 1,322 — — North Tyneside 702 686 130 215 Kensington and 816 770 — — South Tyneside 428 403 47 50 Chelsea Sunderland 506 495 — — Lambeth 605 578 — — Bath and North East 347 280 280 511 Lewisham 517 599 184 121 Somerset Southwark 822 942 — — Bristol, City of 432 475 126 101 Tower Hamlets 679 756 90 70 North Somerset 263 290 94 132 Wandsworth 378 655 35 56 South Gloucestershire 434 426 37 17 Westminster 693 797 — — Hartlepool 706 747 168 63 Barking and 365 394 160 89 Middlesbrough 649 963 460 381 Dagenham Redcar and Cleveland 509 546 279 300 Barnet 301 302 271 365 Stockton-on-Tees 421 419 414 159 Bexley 269 263 268 195 Kingston Upon Hull, 649 469 178 185 Brent 410 413 133 160 City of Bromley 259 271 460 168 East Riding of 433 459 52 70 Croydon 296 339 — — Yorkshire Ealing 324 340 25 189 North East 524 563 248 110 Lincolnshire Enfield 384 366 56 6 North Lincolnshire 468 469 239 333 Haringey 530 566 43 33 North Yorkshire 278 334 265 397 Harrow 276 340 190 149 York 311 452 327 406 Havering 413 413 133 125 Luton 393 507 82 63 Hillingdon 559 598 116 112 Bedford 471 482 117 162 Hounslow 604 470 203 201 Central Bedfordshire 351 362 56 130 Kingston 312 343 110 118 Buckinghamshire 182 217 241 354 Merton 515 581 — — Milton Keynes 387 358 101 51 Newham 489 545 — — Derbyshire 594 586 14 2 Redbridge 359 365 70 118 Derby 278 265 252 140 Richmond upon 519 571 438 95 Thames Dorset 492 493 448 609 Sutton 243 260 83 65 Poole 296 257 43 37 Waltham Forest 434 422 — — Bournemouth 394 347 135 175 Birmingham 352 424 — — Durham 307 331 87 72 Coventry 343 393 628 387 Darlington 579 728 28 21 Dudley 309 308 13 15 East Sussex 388 405 395 130 Sandwell 482 489 125 331 Brighton and Hove 467 374 131 97 Solihull 325 272 1,041 153 Hampshire 554 577 59 64 Walsall 493 380 — — Portsmouth 373 382 142 123 Wolverhampton 640 789 192 199 Southampton 633 583 — — Knowsley 463 503 239 206 Leicestershire 476 469 289 329 Liverpool 622 572 86 95 Leicester 578 551 99 104 265W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 266W

Robert Neill: I have been asked to reply. SEN LACSEG LA name LACSEG FY10-11 FY10-11 Decisions on the level of future grant support for Pri Sec Pri Sec local authorities is being considered in the context of the spending review. The spending review is being run in Rutland 683 708 286 369 an open, responsible and fair way that protects the Staffordshire 345 335 174 223 poorest and most vulnerable in our society. We have Stoke-on-Trent 596 587 — — consulted broadly with the public over the summer Wiltshire 310 247 333 137 through the Spending Challenge. This has meant engaging Swindon 450 441 127 91 and involving the whole country in the difficult decisions Bracknell Forest 342 366 246 143 that will have to be taken. Windsor and 373 323 604 354 Maidenhead Some councils are using effective ways of engaging West Berkshire 294 325 202 244 the community in making decisions about what to Reading 612 805 97 78 invest resources in and where to make savings. For Slough 376 430 189 115 example, a number of councils are using a. web-based Wokingham 600 592 39 31 consultation tool called YouChoose, developed by LB Cambridgeshire 337 318 200 — Redbridge: Peterborough 499 485 269 274 http://www.idea.gov.uk/idk/core/page.do?pageId=22436695 Halton 705 721 249 178 This enables the public to be involved in the process and Warrington 512 456 56 62 also helps them to understand the difficult choices Devon 459 432 80 100 facing councils. I would commend this approach to any Plymouth 542 503 149 173 council wishing to improve contributions from the Torbay 549 528 118 107 community; and to go further by giving local people a Essex 453 435 63 50 direct say in spending as a part of the budget in a Southend-on-Sea 423 467 4 6 participatory budgeting exercise. Thurrock 715 723 150 204 Herefordshire 377 461 263 329 The most promising ideas will be taken forward in Worcestershire 371 414 93 74 time for the spending review on 20 October. We will Kent 342 322 36 38 limit as far as possible the impact of reductions in Medway 269 285 37 42 spending on the most vulnerable in society, and on Lancashire 290 347 — — those regions heavily dependent on the public sector. Blackburn with 413 399 468 415 Darwen New Schools Network Blackpool 507 475 — — Nottinghamshire 308 299 249 213 Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Nottingham 818 756 104 39 Education pursuant to the answer of 6 September Shropshire 457 553 162 450 2010, Official Report, column 351W, on the New Telford and Wrekin 358 335 136 157 Schools Network, what consideration his Department East Cheshire 350 258 154 117 gave to the relevant regulations and agreements when Cheshire West and 414 305 154 74 agreeing to enter into the grant agreement with the Chester New Schools Network. [15963] Cornwall 568 457 124 92 Cumbria 424 458 221 172 Mr Gibb: The Department considered carefully the Gloucestershire 465 406 16 16 options for securing the requisite services from an external Hertfordshire 262 269 66 73 organisation. Given the need for specialist skills and Isle of Wight 406 383 451 387 experience to be in place quickly it was decided to Lincolnshire 456 462 170 53 award a time-limited grant to New Schools Network. In Norfolk 305 334 154 266 doing so the Department took account of the UK Northamptonshire 296 299 145 143 Public Procurement Regulations 2006 and the Compact Northumberland 395 469 526 217 Commissioning Guidance. Oxfordshire 374 392 388 548 Somerset 490 539 100 95 Suffolk 306 286 146 81 Surrey 249 311 244 125 JUSTICE Warwickshire 319 364 228 234 West Sussex 403 356 — — Convictions

Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Public Expenditure Justice pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Garston and Halewood of 26 July 2010, Official Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Report, columns 684-86W, on convictions, what Education if he will take steps to enable (a) vulnerable, assessment he has made of the reason for the trends in (b) disabled and (c) other people to participate in conviction rates for (a) theft and (b) burglary in a local decisions on identification of (i) areas in which dwelling between 2001 and 2008. [15563] savings may be made and (ii) services for which funding should be maintained at current levels in respect of The Attorney-General: I have been asked to reply. proposed reductions in area-based grant funding. On 26 July 2010, the Secretary of State for Justice [15873] reported that the conviction rate for theft had increased 267W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 268W from 79% in 1999 to 90% in 2008 and the conviction Convictions: Theft rate for burglary had increased from 63% to 74% over the same period. Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what proportion of convictions for criminal The data shows that performance started to improve offences in each of the last nine years was attributable noticeably after 2003. This coincides with three major to convictions for offences of (a) burglary, (b) theft initiatives aimed at increasing the effectiveness of criminal and (c) robbery. [15704] case management in the criminal justice system, namely the Charging Programme, the Effective Trial Management Mr Blunt: The number of defendants found guilty at Programme and the ’No Witness, No Justice’ Programme. all courts for burglary, theft, and robbery, and the It was the combined effect of these major initiatives that proportion they are of all convictions, England and helped to deliver the improvement in conviction rates Wales 2000-08 (latest available) are shown in the following and as Minister responsible for the CPS I am delighted table. with its role in delivering these outcomes. Data for 2009 will be published on 21 October 2010.

Number of defendants found guilty1, 2 at all courts for burglary, theft, and robbery, by percentage of those found guilty of all offences, England and Wales 2000-083, 4, 5 Found guilty Percentage Burglary Theft5 Robbery All offence groups Burglary Theft Robbery

20003 26,222 108,917 5,891 1,423,702 2 8 * 2001 24,802 109,655 6,822 1,349,673 2 8 1 2002 26,691 109,809 7,711 1,421,285 2 8 1 2003 25,726 103,066 7,303 1,491,210 2 7 * 2004 24,252 96,144 7,481 1,548,500 2 6 * 2005 22,951 90,792 7,083 1,484,424 2 6 * 2006 22,955 87,008 8,105 1,421,401 2 6 1 2007 23,821 94,060 8,829 1,415,904 2 7 1 20084 23,882 100,125 8,475 1,363,218 2 8 1 * Less than 1% 1 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with.Whena defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed fortwoor more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 3 Staffordshire Police Force were only able to supply a sample of data for magistrates courts proceedings covering one full week in each quarter for 2000. Estimates based on this sample are included in the figures as they are considered sufficiently robust at this high level of analysis. 4 Excludes data for Cardiff magistrates court for April, July and August 2008. 5 The following statute, sections of the statute, and corresponding offence descriptions are used for Theft: Theft Act 1968 S.1, S.11 and S.13 Stealing from the person of another Stealing in a dwelling other than from automatic machines and meters Stealing by an employee Abstracting electricity Stealing pedal cycles Stealing from vehicles: From motor vehicles From other vehicles Stealing from shops and stalls (shoplifting) Stealing from automatic machines and meters Stealing and unauthorised taking of motor vehicles: Stealing motor vehicle Other stealing and unauthorised taking: Offences under the Theft Act 1968 S.1 not classified elsewhere Removal of articles on show from places open to the public Stealing conveyance other than motor vehicle or pedal cycle Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice.

Crimes of Violence: Sentencing broken down into sub categories which together form the offence of grievous bodily harm.

Susan Elan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Data for 2009 are planned for publication on 21 October Justice what the average length of a custodial sentence 2010. imposed in respect of grievous bodily harm was in each Persons sentenced, the sentence they received and the average custodial of the last five years. [15941] sentence length1 at all courts for grievous bodily harm, England and Wales 2004 to 20082, 3 Offence and sentence Mr Blunt: The number of persons sentenced at all outcome 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 courts, the sentence they received and average custodial sentence length for grievous bodily harm offences, England Wounding with intent to do grievous bodily harm4 and Wales 2004 to 2008 (latest available) are shown in the following table. Total sentenced 1,697 1,673 1,559 1,734 1,664 The offences shown in the table, which come under Of which: the Offences Against the Persons Act 1861, have been Immediate custody 1,542 1,516 1,445 1,548 1,548 269W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 270W

Persons sentenced, the sentence they received and the average custodial HEALTH sentence length1 at all courts for grievous bodily harm, England and Wales 2004 to 20082, 3 Abortion: Young People Offence and sentence outcome 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Average custodial 48.6 48.6 46.5 43.7 49.4 for Health what the rate of terminations of pregnancies sentence length for women aged under 18 per 1,000 conceptions was in (months) 2009; and if he will make a statement. [16000] Absolute discharge 2223— Conditional discharge 1 2 2 — — Anne Milton: In England and Wales, for women aged Fine —2441under 18 years, 494 per 1,000 conceptions were terminated by abortion in 2008 (the most recent year for which Community sentence 92 75 52 85 43 figures are available). Figures on conceptions are estimates Suspended sentence 16 22 25 36 25 based on the number of live births, stillbirths or legal Otherwise dealt with 44 54 29 58 47 abortions. They do not include miscarriages and illegal abortions. Figures are based on the woman’s age at Wounding or inflicting estimated date of conception. Data for 2008 are provisional. grievous bodily harm5 The rate of abortions in England and Wales for under Total sentenced 4,331 4,227 4,322 4,487 4,341 18-year-olds was 20.1 per 1,000 women aged 15 to Immediate custody 2,278 2,182 2,118 2,159 2,188 17 years in 2008. Of which: Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency Average custodial 17.7 18.1 18.5 18.8 18.1 sentence length Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for (months) Health (1) how many contracts to obtain data from the Absolute discharge 4 5 — 4 — Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Conditional discharge 43 48 43 33 27 Agency General Practice Research Database (a) his Fine 52 39 32 28 17 Department and (b) another agency of Government Community sentence 1,715 1,626 1,133 977 814 has entered into without tendering; [15827] Suspended sentence 146 219 882 1,182 1,207 (2) what studies his Department has undertaken to Otherwise dealt with 93 108 114 104 88 ensure that the cost to his Department and other Government bodies of acquiring medical data from the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Racially or religiously aggravated grievous Agency General Practice Research Database represents bodily harm6 value for money in comparison with the cost of Total sentenced 32 38 49 60 68 obtaining similar data from commercial organisations. [15923] Of which: Immediate custody 18 17 22 25 36 Mr Simon Burns: Over the last three years, the General Average custodial 19.3 10.5 18.9 21.6 14.0 Practice Research Database (GPRD) has added new sentence length and additional services which means that simple (months) comparisons of the cost of access to primary care data Absolute discharge —————between the GPRD and that from commercial organisations Conditional discharge —1114are not meaningful. Fine 2—252The “contracts” referred to are actually in-house Community sentence 10 17 17 17 17 arrangements between the Department and one of its Suspended sentence 2 3 7 11 7 Executive agencies and therefore not subject to the Otherwise dealt with — — — 1 2 requirements of procurement law. 1 Average custodial sentence length excludes life and indeterminate sentences. 2 The figures given in the table relate to persons for whom these offences were Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has Health (1) what assessment has been made of the been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the potential for a conflict of interest to arise between the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory maximum penalty is the most severe. Agency function of regulating pharmaceutical 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and products and that Agency’s role as supplier of General complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police Practice Research Database medical data to the same forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection pharmaceutical companies; [15909] processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. (2) whether the Medicines and Healthcare products 4 Offences against the Person Act 1861 S.18—Wounding with intent to do Regulatory Agency General Practice Research grievous bodily harm. Database department repaid the initial funding loan it 5 Offences against the Person Act 1861 S.20—Malicious wounding:— wounding or inflicting grievous bodily harm. received from the Medicines and Healthcare products 6 Offences against the Person Act 1861 S.20 as amended by Crime and Regulatory Agency (MHRA) when the General Disorder Act 1998 S.29(1)(a)&(2) Practice Research Database was moved from the Office Racially aggravated malicious wounding:—wounding or inflicting grievous bodily harm. for National Statistics to the MHRA. [15922] Religiously aggravated malicious wounding:—wounding or inflicting grievous bodily harm. Mr Simon Burns: The Medicines and Healthcare Racially or religiously aggravated malicious wounding:—wounding or products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) has in place a inflicting grievous bodily harm. Source: robust separation of functions between the MHRA Justice Statistics—Analytical Services, Ministry of Justice regulatory functions and the General Practice Research 271W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 272W

Database (GPRD) to ensure there is no conflict of Since 7 May 2010, one member of staff has joined the interest. The GPRD is run by its own dedicated team Office on a fixed-term contract through the Ministry of who have no involvement with any regulatory work of Justice. the MHRA, and none of the MHRA regulatory staff have access to the administration of the GPRD. The Departmental Public Expenditure GPRD Group reports into a non-regulatory Division of the MHRA, the Information Management Division. Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for The GPRD group maintains its own separate management Scotland if his Department will take steps to assess the accounts. GPRD and MHRA data are kept on separate effects on (a) equality of incomes, (b) equality of physical servers, accessed through separate logical domains. assets and (c) equality of access to services of As a result of this separation of functions the Agency is measures relating to its expenditure under confident that no conflict of interest exists. consideration in the Spending Review. [16348] The GPRD moved from the Office of National Statistics David Mundell: The Scotland Office does not deliver to the Medicines Control Agency (MCA), the predecessor services directly to the public. However the equality body to the MHRA in 1999. At that time the MCA duties inform all its work as a matter of course. took a decision to invest in the GPRD to develop it as a resource for medical and health research purposes Departmental Secondment undertaken in the public interest. This was an investment, not an ‘initial funding loan’ requiring repayment. Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland Our Life how many staff his Department has appointed on secondment since 7 May 2010; and from what Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for organisation each such member of staff has been Health whether (a) he and (b) officials of his seconded. [16266] Department have discussed with NHS North West the (i) establishment and (ii) funding of the social David Mundell: The Scotland Office does not employ enterprise Our Life. [15567] staff directly. All its staff are on secondment from other public bodies, mainly the Ministry of Justice and the Paul Burstow: During the development and establishment ″ ″ Scottish Government. As at 16 September 2010, the phase of the Our Life programme, discussions took Scotland Office has appointed four members of staff on place between ministers and the North West strategic secondment since 7 May 2010. Two from the Scottish health authority (SHA). Along with other regional Government and two from the Ministry of Justice. partners, departmental officials had discussions with the SHA in relation to this organisation. There is no Departmental Work Experience requirement for the Department to approve the establishment of social enterprises. Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for The Department provided funding to each region to Scotland how many interns his Department has help support the reduction of harm from alcohol at a engaged in the last 12 months; and how many were (a) local level. In the North West, the regional Drink Wise unpaid, (b) remunerated with expenses only and (c) programme contributed to specific projects, including paid a salary. [17205] Our Life. Further information on the Our Life social enterprise David Mundell: The Scotland Office has engaged no is available at: interns in the last 12 months. www.northwest.nhs.uk/whatwedo/publichealth/our_life

ATTORNEY-GENERAL SCOTLAND Departmental Billing Departmental Contracts Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland Mike Freer: To ask the Attorney-General what the what the monetary value is of contracts his average cost to the Law Officers’ Departments was of Department has awarded to each (a) management processing the payment for an invoice in the latest consultancy and (b) IT company since 7 May 2010. period for which figures are available; and what [16177] proportion of invoices settled in that period were paid (a) electronically and (b) by cheque. [16106] David Mundell: The Scotland Office has not awarded any management consultancy or IT contracts since The Attorney-General: The information requested is 7 May 2010. contained in the following table: Departmental Manpower Law Officers Estimated average cost Proportion of payments Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for Department (£) by cheque (%) Scotland how many officials his Department has Crown Prosecution 3.84 6.8 appointed on fixed-term contracts since 7 May 2010. Service [16798] Treasury Solicitor’s 6.42 12 Department1 David Mundell: All staff in the Scotland Office are on Serious Fraud Office2 6.50 1 secondment, mainly from the Ministry of Justice or the 1 TSOL figures also cover the Attorney-General’s Office and HM Crown Scottish Government. The Office does not employ staff Prosecution Service Inspectorate. 2 directly. The SFO figures include invoices processed on behalf of the NFA. 273W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 274W

Departmental Empty Property cases are reported, they are thoroughly investigated. In addition, they aim to ensure that measures are available Mike Freer: To ask the Attorney-General what the to support victims and witnesses. estimated monetary value is of each vacant (a) The prosecution of such cases is taken very seriously building and (b) parcel of land owned by the Law by the CPS and prosecutors are made fully aware of the Officers’ Departments in each region. [16241] issues surrounding this subject. The CPS also works closely with the police to build The Solicitor-General: None of the buildings or land strong prosecution cases. All cases sent to the CPS owned by the Law Officers Departments is currently following an investigation are subject to the Full Code vacant. Test set out in the Code for Crown Prosecutors, which requires that there is sufficient evidence and it is in the Departmental Press: Subscriptions public interest for a prosecution to proceed. Mike Freer: To ask the Attorney-General how much Sentencing: Appeals the Law Officers’ Departments spent on newspapers, periodicals and trade profession magazines in each Susan Elan Jones: To ask the Attorney-General (1) year since 1997. [16231] how many representations his Department has received requesting that a sentence given in a Crown court be The Attorney-General: The information requested is considered for referral to the Court of Appeal for contained in the following table: review because it may be unduly lenient in each of the last 12 months; and on how many occasions his £ Department has referred a sentence to the Court of 1 CPS RCPO SFO TSOL NFA Appeal for such a review; [15899] 1997-98 96,692 — 17,436 — — (2) on how many occasions the Court of Appeal has 1998-99 95,322 — 28,093 6,505 — increased on review the length of a sentence passed 1999- 92,876 — 28,683 8,611 — down by the Crown court on grounds of undue 2000 leniency in each of the last five years. [15939] 2000-01 101,135 — 27,458 16,831 — 2001-02 102,312 — 30,742 25,571 — The Attorney-General: The power to refer certain 2002-03 138,122 — 41,466 22,470 — sentences to the Court of Appeal as unduly lenient is 2003-04 134,187 — 59,088 3,621 — one which I exercise personally. Statistics relating to 2004-05 143,594 — 55,474 3,878 — unduly lenient sentences are published annually and are 2005-06 229,916 113,854 64,330 11,457 — available on the Attorney-General’s Office website. In 2006-07 269,302 115,923 80,641 13,115 — the 12 months from September 2009 the previous Attorney- 2007-08 182,865 112,611 84,067 10,633 — General and I were asked to consider sentences passed 2008-09 193,910 147,021 69,999 11,823 — on 347 offenders. The sentences passed on 99 offenders 2009-10 201,474 277,954 59,419 6,220 542 were referred to the Court of Appeal for review. 1 Tsol data include costs for AGO and HMCPSI. Information is not recorded for 1997-98. The figures for the last five years are as follows: 2 Data up to end of December 2009. RCPO merged with CPS on 1 January 2010. Number Departmental Secondment 2009 71 sentences were increased, of 108 reviewed by the court Ian Austin: To ask the Attorney-General how many 2008 52 of 80 staff the Law Officers’ Departments have appointed on 2007 75 of 113 secondment since 7 May 2010; and from what 2006 108 of 160 organisation each such member of staff has been 2005 67 of 127 seconded. [16275]

The Solicitor-General: The Law Officers’ Departments have not appointed any staff on secondment since 7 May DEFENCE 2010. Aircraft Carriers Female Genital Mutilation Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Valerie Vaz: To ask the Attorney-General if he will Defence how many military personnel were deployed undertake an investigation of factors affecting the from aircraft carriers in (a) Afghanistan in 2001, (b) number of prosecutions for offences related to female Al Faw in 2003 and (c) Sierra Leone in 2000. [15855] genital mutilation; if he will take steps to increase the rate of such prosecutions; and if he will make a Nick Harvey [holding answer 11 October 2010]: HMS statement. [14880] Illustrious was one of the first British units in theatre at the start of the Afghanistan operation, providing the The Solicitor-General: The Crown Prosecution Service delivery of early entry land forces into theatre. (CPS) is an active member of the inter-departmental Approximately 150 personnel from 40 Commando Female Genital Mutilation Steering Group co-ordinated Royal Marines deployed by helicopter from HMS Ark by the Home Office. This group has been working to Royal to the Al Faw peninsula during the invasion of raise public awareness and ensure that wherever these Iraq in 2003. 275W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 276W

HMS Illustrious deployed in the Carrier Strike role Departmental Secondment to Sierra Leone in 2000 and therefore did not deploy any troops directly. As part of the same operation, Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence approximately 800 personnel from the Amphibious Ready how many staff his Department has appointed on Group based around 42 Commando Royal Marines secondment since 7 May 2010; and from what deployed into Sierra Leone from a task group based organisation each such member of staff has been around HMS Ocean, a Royal Navy Landing Platform seconded. [16271] Helicopter. Christopher Myers Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence has appointed 10 staff on secondment since 7 May 2010. They have John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for come from the Department for Business Innovation Defence whether Christopher Myers attended pre- and Skills, UK Trade and Investment, the Treasury deployment training before participating in a visit to Solicitor’s Department and the national health service. Afghanistan in January 2010. [16016] Secondments allow the outward and inward exchange of staff, ideas and skills between departments. They can Dr Fox: Christopher Myers received a pre-deployment help to develop individuals and enhance the business by briefing in line with current policy for visits of this introducing different perspectives, expertise and business nature. acumen. Departmental Official Hospitality

Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for HOME DEPARTMENT Defence how much his Department spent on Antisocial Behaviour Orders hospitality for events hosted by each Minister in the Department in each of the last three years. [13474] Alan Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr Robathan: As part of their duties Ministers are Home Department which (a) chief constables, (b) regularly asked to host receptions and meals in honour police authority chairs and (c) local authority leaders of visiting dignitaries. We do not have comprehensive have indicated support for her proposals to cease the costs records for the period in question. The following use of antisocial behaviour orders. [15695] table details the costs of the events we have records for, by calendar year, from September 2007. James Brokenshire [holding answer 16 September 2010]: Home Office officials are in constant dialogue with Recorded cost of police and other professional bodies about a wide range events in £ (rounded to the Annual total of issues related to antisocial behaviour. No decisions Period Name nearest £10) (£) have yet been taken on the future of the antisocial behaviour order but my right hon. Friend the Home September- Right hon. Des 9,540 19,540 December 2007 Browne MP Secretary announced a review of antisocial behaviour (a) January- Right hon. Bob 16,050 tools and powers and the views of chief constables, December 2008 Ainsworth MP (b) police authority chairs and (c) local authority Right hon. Des 13,430 leaders will be taken into account as part of this work. Browne MP Quentin Davies MP 1,320 Alan Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Right hon. John 960 Home Department with reference to her speech at the Hutton MP Coin Street Community Centre in London on 28 July Right hon. 7,810 39,570 2010, what representations her Department has Baroness Taylor of Bolton received from hon. and right hon. Members in favour January- Right hon. Bob 12,510 of the use of antisocial behaviour orders since 1997. December 2009 Ainsworth MP [15833] Quentin Davies MP 3,720 Bill Rammell MP 620 James Brokenshire: It is not possible to provide the information requested. Right hon. 20,640 37,490 Baroness Taylor of Representations received by the Home Office cover a Bolton wide range of tools and powers, including antisocial January-April Quentin Davies MP 2,000 behaviour orders and to provide a summary of these 2010 would entail disproportionate costs. January-April Right hon. 150 2010 Baroness Taylor of Bolton Domestic Violence May- Lord Astor of 100 September Hever DL Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2010 Home Department (1) what discussions she has had May- Right hon. Dr 1,410 September Liam Fox MP with the Association of Chief Police Officers on her 2010 decision not to proceed with domestic violence May- Gerald Howarth 3,030 26,690 protection order pilots; [13987] September MP 2010 (2) what estimate she has made of the cost to the 1 Part year public purse of implementing domestic violence 2 To date protection orders across England and Wales; [14066] 277W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 278W

(3) what her estimate is of the cost of the proposed James Brokenshire [holding answer 11 October 2010]: pilots on domestic violence protection orders to (a) As my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary said in her participating police forces and (b) her Department for written ministerial statement of 22 July 2010, Official the duration of the pilots; [14067] Report, column 42WS, the Hillsborough Independent (4) for what reasons she plans not to proceed with Panel has the Government’s full support. That statement the proposed pilots on domestic violence protection also confirmed that no changes have been made to the orders. [14162] Panel’s terms of reference. Within that framework it is for the Panel to decide how and when information is Lynne Featherstone: We have deferred, not halted, the disclosed, initially to the Hillsborough families. We pilot scheme of the Domestic Violence Protection Order recognise both the importance of the Panel’s work and (DVPO) so we could understand their potential impact the diligent and professional way in which it is conducting better and be sure that they would work before committing its duty. public funds. In tough economic times, the Government have to Immigration consider options for delivering improved protection and value for money across all aspects of their work. Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for We will give further consideration to work in this area the Home Department how many people had once the outcome of the spending review is known and overstayed the time limit of their leave to remain on the we have explored options for reducing costs of latest date for which figures are available. [16059] implementation. We have had representations from a range of organisations and will keep the Association of Damian Green: It has not been possible to accurately Chief Police Officers and other partners involved in estimate the number of people who have overstayed discussions about this. their limited leave to remain in the UK since the dismantling The costs of implementing Domestic Violence Protection of embarkation controls. Orders (DVPOs) across England and Wales would be The wider immigration programme, contained in “The impacted by a range of factors, including take-up, and Coalition: our programme for government” published it is not possible to accurately estimate these until a on 20 May, includes a commitment to support e-Borders pilot has taken place. The estimated cost for piloting the and re-introduce entry and exit checks. scheme within two police force areas was £700,000 I am aware of research by the London School of based on an assumption of 250-300 possible applications Economics (LSE) in May 2009 which gave a central for DVPOs across a 6-12 month period over the two estimate for the total irregular migrant population in areas. the UK as at the end of 2007 of 618,000 (1.0% of UK Firearms population) within a range of 417,000 to 863,000. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for The LSE report is available to view at: the Home Department pursuant to the answer of http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/LSELondon/pdf/ 20 July 2010, Official Report, column 199W, on irregular%20migrants%20full%20report.pdf firearms, whether her Department intends to publish a Immigration Controls report of the National Ballistics Intelligence Service’s work on the illegal use of shotguns. [16413] Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for James Brokenshire: The National Ballistics Intelligence the Home Department what the forecast requirements Service (NABIS) delivers a range of intelligence assessments for foreign workers of Tier 2 sponsors have been at the and problem profiles to UK law enforcement organisations. end of each month since the inception of the scheme. The Service’s role is to build these profiles in order to [14583] inform and develop operational activity that protects the communities of the United Kingdom from the Damian Green: The number of Certificates of threat of firearms crime. This includes the use, supply, Sponsorship (CoS) assigned to prospective migrants by manufacture and smuggling of illegal weapons into and sponsors under Tier 2 of the Points Based System with UK borders. (PBS) since inception of the scheme is 123,680. The These assessments, and subsequent activity, are of a monthly totals are as follows: sensitive nature and often involve a range of law enforcement activities across multiple agencies and forces. CoS assigned In order to protect operational activity and intelligence November 2008 50 gathering resources and techniques, NABIS does not December 2008 1,723 share this information in the public domain and it January 2009 4,167 would be inappropriate for Government to ask it to do February 2009 4,607 so. NABIS may periodically share information relating March 2009 5,805 to operational activity where a particular threat has April 2009 5,091 been removed; however this is done on a case by case May 2009 5,160 basis. June 2009 6,464 Hillsborough Independent Panel July 2009 6,970 August 2009 5,713 Andy Burnham: To ask the Secretary of State for the September 2009 5,833 Home Department what reports she has received on October 2009 6,012 progress made by the Hillsborough Independent Panel; November 2009 5,936 and what timetable the panel has set for the next steps December 2009 6,119 in its work. [16134] 279W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 280W

One proposal which will amend or repeal an existing CoS assigned measure has been adopted since the entry into force of January 2010 5,623 the Lisbon Treaty: under the terms of the Schengen February 2010 5,728 opt-out, the UK did not opt out of a proposal for a March 2010 7,194 Council Regulation to amend Council Decision 2008/ April 2010 5,817 839/JHA, which provides a legal basis for the migration May 2010 6,334 of Schengen Information System (SIS) data from the June 2010 7,242 current system to the future SIS II system. July 2010 7,577 The UK has also opted in to one proposal which August 2010 5,392 remains under negotiation, the European Investigation September 2010 3,123 Order, which would replace the European Evidence Warrant, the majority of the 2000 Convention on Mutual Under Tier 2 of the PBS an employer wishing to Assistance in criminal matters and its Protocol and the sponsor a migrant under Tier 2 must assign a Certificate Framework Decision 2005/577/JHA insofar as it relates of Sponsorship (CoS) which the migrant must use to to the freezing of evidence. The UK notified its intention make an application for a visa. to participate in the European Investigation Order on Not everyone issued with a COS makes an application 27 July 2010. for a visa; and not everyone who applies for a visa is This response covers only those measures for which successful. the Home Office has responsibility.

Protocol on Transitional Provisions TREASURY Chris Heaton-Harris: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) in relation to which EU Child Poverty acts the UK is entitled to make notification of non-acceptance to the Council under Article 10(4) of 20. Ann McKechin: To ask the Chancellor of the the Protocol on Transitional Provisions attached to the Exchequer what methodology his Department uses to Treaty on European Union, the Treaty on the assess the effects of its policies on the level of child Functioning of the European Union and the Treaty poverty. [16499] establishing the European Atomic Energy Community; [16352] Justine Greening: As set out in Paragraph A20 in Annex A of the June Budget, the Department used its (2) to which EU acts which applied to the UK on the tax and benefit micro-simulation model to estimate the date of the entry into force of the Treaty of Lisbon the impact of Budget measures on child poverty.This modelling provisions of Article 10(1) of the Protocol on was based on data from the Family Resources survey, Transitional Provisions attached to the Treaty on uprated to the appropriate year, and estimated using the European Union, the Treaty on the Functioning of the change in relative child poverty of modelled tax and European Union and the Treaty establishing the benefit reforms. European Atomic Energy Community applied on that date; what EU acts which apply to the UK amend or Interest Rates and Government Borrowing repeal such acts; and on what date the UK decided to participate in, or participate in the adoption of the 21. Matthew Hancock: To ask the Chancellor of the proposal for, each such amending or repealing act in Exchequer what recent assessment he has made of the which it had discretion to participate under the relationship between changes in market interest rates Treaties; [16353] and levels of Government borrowing. [16500] (3) what proposals are under consideration at EU level that would amend or repeal EU acts which apply Mr Hoban: The action announced by the Government to the UK and to which the provisions of Article 10(1) in the June Budget 2010 to consolidate their fiscal of the Protocol on Transitional Provisions attached to position supports low interest rates and a fall in gilt the Treaty on European Union, the Treaty on the yields. The independent Office for Budget Responsibility Functioning of the European Union and the Treaty forecasts that debt interest payments will be £4 billion establishing the European Atomic Energy Community lower, and net debt as a percentage of GDP will be apply; and on what date the UK decided to participate 5% lower, in 2014-15 than in its pre-Budget forecast. in any such proposals in which it had discretion to SMEs participate under the Treaties. [16354] 22. Mr Raab: To ask the Chancellor of the James Brokenshire: The provisions of Article 10(1) Exchequer what fiscal measures he is taking to increase and the notification under Article 10(4) of the Protocol levels of employment in small and medium-sized on Transitional Provisions apply to any measure adopted businesses. [16501] prior to the entry into force of the Lisbon Treaty on 1 December 2009 which had a legal base in the police Mr Gauke: Next year’s increase in the employer and criminal judicial co-operation title (VI) of the national insurance contributions threshold will reduce Treaty on the European Union (TEU) where those costs to employers by over £3 billion. The national measures have not subsequently been repealed, annulled insurance contributions holiday announced at Budget or amended by the adoption of a new measure. In reduces costs to new businesses in targeted regions. In making the notification, all such measures would cease many cases, new small business will pay no employer to apply to the UK from 1 December 2014. national insurance in the first year of employment. 281W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 282W

Comprehensive Spending Review In June 2009, the scope of the fund was expanded temporarily to support workers made redundant as a 23. Penny Mordaunt: To ask the Chancellor of the result of the global economic and financial crisis. This Exchequer what discussions he has had with ministerial derogation will expire on 31 December 2011. colleagues on joint working between Departments as Any proposals relating to EGF, including for the part of the comprehensive spending review. [16502] continuation of the fund beyond 2013, will be scrutinised in terms of good value for money as with all areas of Danny Alexander: The Prime Minister has appointed EU spending. PEX to advise Cabinet on the high level decisions that will need to be taken in the spending review, including Revenue and Customs: Telephone Services the approach to cross-cutting issues. To support closer collaboration, the Treasury encouraged Mr Winnick: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Departments to submit joint spending review submissions what telephone numbers are available for members of on key cross-cutting issues. the public to contact his Department to discuss tax Joint working will continue to be important through credit issues; what reports he has received of difficulties the spending review period, including exploration of experienced by members of the public attempting to place-based budgets to encourage local budget holders contact his Department in this way; and if he will make to work together to deliver local priorities. a statement. [15256]

Tax System Mr Gauke [holding answer 14 September 2010]: There are three numbers available to customers to discuss tax 24. Dr Thérèse Coffey: To ask the Chancellor of the credit issues, available at: Exchequer what steps his Department is taking to http://search2.hmrc.gov.uk/kbroker/hmrc/contactus/start.jsp simplify the tax system. [16503] 1. The main telephone number: 0845 300 3900 2. For customers who are deaf or hearing or speech impaired: Mr Gauke: The Government are committed to 0845 300 3909 simplifying the tax system. To help achieve this, the 3. For customers calling from outside the UK: +44 2890 538 Government have established the independent Office of 192 Tax Simplification. Performance across HMRC’s phone lines varies Business and tax professionals have also consistently throughout the year depending on when key deadlines pointed to the way in which tax policy is developed, and contact peaks fall. legislated and implemented as a contributing factor to Treasury Ministers are aware that some taxpayers overall complexity. We published a discussion document have found it difficult to get through to HMRC’s helplines alongside the June Budget setting out proposals for a during this year’s busiest periods. HMRC is committed new approach to tax policy making, available at: to improving the performance of its telephone helplines, www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/junebudget_tax_ policy_making.pdf and has introduced a range of measures and improvements Departmental Spending to improve the service the Department provides. These include: Reducing the need for customers to contact HMRC by improving 25. Peter Bottomley: To ask the Chancellor of the processes and the forms they issue. Exchequer what assessment he has made of the Improving the HMRC website to make it easier for customers effectiveness of arrangements for departmental to find the answers to general inquiries. spending reductions in place in May 2010. [16504] Developing and improving the range of automated messages to provide answers to many customer queries without the need Danny Alexander: On 24 May we announced £6.2 billion to speak to an adviser. savings in 2010-11 and departmental budgets were reduced Using staff flexibly across HMRC’s helplines to better match with immediate effect. Departments are responsible for customer demand. ensuring that they live within their reduced budgets. In For tax credits the key peak runs from April to some areas they have been supported by HM Treasury July 31, the deadline for customers to renew their claims. and the Efficiency and Reform Group (ERG) in the Demand in August and September can also be high as Cabinet Office, for example renegotiating with HMRC deals with customers whose claim has been Government’s major suppliers to achieve cost reductions. terminated due to their failure to renew and claimants EU Globalisation Fund inform HMRC of changes to their dependents’ educational status as the new school year starts. Dan Byles: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he expects the temporary EU Globalisation Adjustment Fund to be closed. [16278] BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Justine Greening: The European Globalisation Adjustment Fund (EGF) entered into force on 1 January Business Links: Manpower 2007. It was established to support active labour market measures where major structural changes in world trade Jack Dromey: To ask the Secretary of State for patterns lead to substantial redundancies. It is concurrent Business, Innovation and Skills how many Business with the duration of the financial framework, ending Link advisers were employed on Train to Gain in the on 31 December 2013. latest period for which figures are available. [16369] 283W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 284W

Mr Hayes: Since April 2009 the Train to Gain brokerage Train to Gain Programme service was integrated with Business Link. Business Link advisers give advice and support to employers on Jack Dromey: To ask the Secretary of State for skills and where appropriate broker access to Train to Business, Innovation and Skills how many businesses Gain-funded provision. While some regions employ a made use of the Train to Gain service in (a) 2007-08, fully integrated model with all advisers working in all (b) 2008-09 and (c) 2009-10. [16423] support areas, in others, skills brokerage is delivered by dedicated skills advisers. In total 675 Business Link Mr Hayes: The Train to Gain Brokerage Service advisers were available to deliver skills brokerage in recorded the number of businesses who engaged with 2009/10. the Train to Gain provision through the Brokerage Service between 2006/07 and 2008/09 as follows: National Apprenticeship Service 2006/07: 51,600 (note this figure includes 4,000 employers engaged through the former Employer Training Pilots between April and July 2006); Jack Dromey: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many businesses 2007/08: 52,100 used the National Apprenticeship Service in (a) 2008/09: 39,700 2008-09 and (b) 2009-10; and what the average cost to In April 2009 the Train to Gain Brokerage services the public purse was of the service provided to such a was integrated into Business Link. Figures recorded by business. [16408] Business Link for Employer Engagement indicate that for: Mr Hayes: The National Apprenticeship Service (NAS) April 2009: July 2009 there were 16,149 employer engagements was established on 1 April 2009 as the first organisation August 2009: June 2010 there were 51,329 employer engagements. established solely to promote apprenticeships to employers No data are collected centrally on those employers and young people. NAS does not hold information on who chose to access Train to Gain directly, either through the average cost to the public purse of supporting a college or training provider. individual employers with these services. Employers may work with the National Apprenticeship Vocational Training: West Midlands Service either directly or by accessing a range of services including: a dedicated telephone support line; apprenticeship Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State website; and apprenticeship vacancies, the on line for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he plans recruitment system. to take to support re-skilling initiatives in (a) the West In the financial year 2009-10: Midlands and (b) Coventry. [16290] 18,500 employers interested in apprenticeships contacted the apprenticeship national helpline. In addition 16,471 other individuals Mr Hayes [holding answer 11 October 2010]: In also used the helpline with apprenticeship enquiries1. 2010/11 over £509 million is supporting skills training About 2,600,000 visits were made to the apprenticeship website in the west midlands region, of which, over £20 million by individuals, employers and other organisations and 7,455 is supporting Coventry’s residents. This funding covers employers completed an employer web enquiry form2. a diverse range of programmes to meet the needs of Around 10,400 employers advertised for and recruited apprentices individuals and employers, and includes apprentices. using apprenticeship vacancies (the on line system)3. Learners resident in the Coventry constituency are accessing Direct Mail and telemarketing activities allowed NAS these opportunities and others in the wider region to to directly contact over 100,000 businesses to drive up raise and broaden their skill levels and improve their leads for NAS sales teams to convert into new lives. apprenticeship places. On top of this NAS sales managers A consultation to inform a new skills strategy is contacted 27,000 businesses through events, intermediaries currently under way. A key principle that will underpin and their own calls4. the strategy is that the system should meet the needs of 1 Statistics supplied by Call Credit the helpline contracted provider those who have poor work prospects or who have a for the National Apprenticeship Service. high chance of spending long periods out of work. It is 2 Webtrends analytical software. essential that any future skills system gives a respected, 3 Apprenticeship vacancy online system data. credible vocational training offer that will provide people with a route into employment and help them 4 These additional statistics are derived from NAS records including progress in their careers. The new strategy, to be the customer tracking system (CRM)—these have not been published externally. published after the spending review, will take account of views on how we can best achieve that. Public Holidays

Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for PRIME MINISTER Business, Innovation and Skills whether he plans to create a new annual bank holiday. [15895] Departmental Fines

Mr Davey: There are no plans to create a new annual Stewart Hosie: To ask the Prime Minister how many bank holiday as the pattern of bank holidays is well transport-related fines his Office has settled on behalf established and accepted but we keep suggestions of of its staff in each year since 2005; and what the cost to additional holidays under consideration. the public purse was in each such year. [13265] 285W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 286W

The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Member to the CABINET OFFICE answer given by my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office on 11 October 2010, Official Report, Employment column 249W. Mr Clappison: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many and what proportion of (a) UK nationals, (b) people born in the UK, (c) foreign LEADER OF THE HOUSE nationals, (d) non-UK EU nationals and (e) non-EU Members: Pensions nationals (i) aged over 16 years and (ii) of working age were in employment in the UK in each of the last eight Mr Spellar: To ask the Leader of the House what quarters. [15718] recent representations he has received on policy on hon. Members’ pensions; and if he will make a Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the statement. [15901] responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Sir George Young: Iamalwayshappytoreceive Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated September 2010: representations on this and other subjects from hon. As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your and right hon. Members. Parliamentary Question asking how many and what proportion I refer the hon. Gentleman to my written ministerial of (a) UK nationals, (b) people born in the UK, (c) foreign Official Report nationals, (d) non-UK EU nationals: and (e) non-EU nationals statement of 26 July 2010, , column (i) aged over 16 years and (ii) of working age were in employment 70WS. There is broad party political acceptance that in the UK in each of the last eight quarters. (15718) the current final-salary pension terms for Members of You may like to be aware that, following consultation, our Parliament are not sustainable and that reform is needed. practice in respect of labour market statistics changed in August We anticipate that the current scheme for MPs will end. 2010 from regarding working age as men aged 16-64 and women The Government proposes to consult IPSA on these aged 16-59 to statistics based on those aged 16-64 for both men matters and, in due course, to make a further statement and women. in the light of the final findings of the Independent The table provided shows Labour Force Survey (LFS) estimates Public Service Pensions Commission. provided on this basis.

Employment levels and rates for people aged over 16 years in employment1,2 by nationality and country of birth. Three months ending March, June, September and December, 2008-10. United Kingdom, not seasonally adjusted Thousand and percentage Aged over 16 years Non-UK UK Foreign EU Non-EU nationals Rate (%) UK born Rate (%) nationals Rate (%) nationals Rate (%) nationals Rate (%)

2008 Q3 27,174 60 25,771 60 2,318 64 1,067 70 1,250 59 2008 Q4 27,026 59 25,585 60 2,377 64 1,074 69 1,303 60

2009 Q1 26,741 59 25,283 59 2,347 63 1,118 69 1,229 59 2009 Q2 26,526 58 25,095 58 2,303 62 1,104 68 1,199 57 2009 Q3 26,732 58 25,308 59 2,262 63 1,083 69 1,179 58 2009 Q4 26,691 58 25,259 58 2,288 62 1,069 68 1,219 58

2010 Q1 26,487 58 25,039 58 2,254 61 1,075 67 1,179 56 2010 Q23 26,530 *58 25,080 *58 2,401 *62 1,178 *69 1,223 *57 Source: Labour Force Survey (LFS)

Employment levels and rates for people aged 16 to 64 years in employment1,2 by nationality and country of birth. Three months ending March, June, September and December, 2008-10. United Kingdom, not seasonally adjusted Thousand and percentage Aged 16 to 64 years Non-UK UK Foreign EU Non-EU nationals Rate (%) UK born Rate (%) nationals Rate (%) nationals Rate (%) nationals Rate (%)

2008 Q3 26,507 73 25,137 73 2,297 69 1,056 78 1,241 62 2008 Q4 26,342 73 24,933 73 2,357 69 1,062 77 1,296 63

2009 Q1 26,050 72 24,632 72 2,326 68 1,104 77 1,222 62 2009 Q2 25,821 71 24,432 71 2,279 66 1,085 76 1,193 59 2009 Q3 26,005 71 24,621 72 2,237 68 1,065 76 1,172 61 2009 Q4 25,942 71 24,552 72 2,269 67 1,057 75 1,213 61

2010 Q1 25,721 70 24,313 71 2,236 66 1,065 75 1,172 59 287W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 288W

Employment levels and rates for people aged 16 to 64 years in employment1,2 by nationality and country of birth. Three months ending March, June, September and December, 2008-10. United Kingdom, not seasonally adjusted Thousand and percentage Aged 16 to 64 years Non-UK UK Foreign EU Non-EU nationals Rate (%) UK born Rate (%) nationals Rate (%) nationals Rate (%) nationals Rate (%)

2010 Q23 25,728 *71 24,314 *71 2,377 *67 1,164 *76 1,212 *60 1 Includes self-employed and unpaid family workers. 2 Excludes those whose nationality was not known. 3 Coefficients of Variation have been calculated for the latest period as an indication of the quality of the estimates, as described below: Guide to Quality: The Coefficient of Variation (CV) indicates the quality of an estimate, the smaller the CV value the higher the quality. The true value is likely to lie within +/- twice the CV60 - for example, for an estimate of 200 with a CV of 5% we would expect the population total to be within the range 180-220. Key: * 0 = CV<5%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered precise **5=CV<10%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered reasonably precise *** 10 = CV <20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered acceptable **** CV ? 20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered too unreliable for practical purposes CV = Coefficient of Variation Note: It should be noted that the above estimates exclude people in most types of communal establishment (e.g. hotels, boarding houses, hostels, mobile home sites etc.). Source: Labour Force Survey (LFS)

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE is a framework agreement for a period of 5.5 years, against which the FCO and its partners (UK Border Borneo: Forests Agency (UKBA) and the Department for International Development) can call-off services as required. The Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for current expectation is that the FCO and UKBA will Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what support his together call-off £82 million for services over 5.5 years. Department has given to the Heart of Borneo project This framework contract will provide faster, cheaper since its inception. [16695] and more reliable video conferencing, telephony and internet. The contract will save the tax payer up to Mr Jeremy Browne: The Government have been at £90 million, and will reduce flights, travel and carbon the forefront of international support for the efforts of emissions through the increased use of videoconferencing. the Heart of Borneo project. Our missions in Brunei, There were no contracts awarded under management Indonesia and Malaysia have actively worked with their consultancy. hosts to help turn the Declaration into co-ordinated action plans, and with non-governmental organisations Human Rights and Democracy Strategic Programme and businesses (including Shell, HSBC and Standard Fund Chartered Bank) to build public support for the initiative. Our work has focused on how management of the rainforest, and associated life science research, presents Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for all three countries with ways to align their economies Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) how much with the global trend towards high-tech/low-carbon. money was allocated to the Human Rights and Democracy Strategic Programme Fund in 2008; [15645] Departmental Contracts (2) how much money his Department allocated to the Human Rights and Democracy Strategic Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Programme Fund in 2009. [15764] and Commonwealth Affairs what the monetary value is of contracts his Department has awarded to each (a) Mr Jeremy Browne: In both 2008-09 and 2009-10, management consultancy and (b) IT company since £6.1 million was originally allocated to the Human 7 May 2010. [16183] Rights and Democracy Strategic Programme Fund. These allocations were revised to £5.59 million in 2008-09, Alistair Burt: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office following an internal transfer to another Foreign and (FCO) signed a contract with Cable and Wireless Worldwide Commonwealth Office programme supporting human on 13 September 2010 for the provision of global telephony, rights projects, and to £5.81 million in 2009-10 as a data and video conferencing services. The Echo programme result of in year budget cuts. 3MC Ministerial Corrections12 OCTOBER 2010 Ministerial Corrections 4MC

resolution of the House of 26 May 1999 and has Ministerial Correction been uprated by increases in the retail prices index since then. Tuesday 12 October 2010 Each Opposition party that receives Short money is required to submit a report from an independent professional auditor, after the end of each financial year, that all the expenses for which the party received LEADER OF THE HOUSE financial assistance under the terms of the resolution were incurred exclusively in connection with the party’s Short Money parliamentary business. The relevant criteria are set out in notes provided to the auditors. Rehman Chishti: To ask the Leader of the House The correct answer should have been: what formula is used for calculating Short money; when that formula was set; and what mechanism is Sir George Young: For 2010-11 the formula used to used to monitor the usage of allocated funds. [14126] calculate each Opposition party’s Short money funding [Official Report, 13 September 2010, Vol. 515, c. 743-44W.] is: £14,351 multiplied by the number of seats won by a party’s candidates at the general election; plus Letter of correction from Sir George Young: £28.66 multiplied by one two hundredth of the number An error has been identified in the written answer of votes cast at the election. The formula was set by a given to the hon. Member for Gillingham and Rainham resolution of the House of 26 May 1999 and has been (Rehman Chishti) on 13 September 2010. uprated by increases in the retail prices index since then. The full answer given was as follows: Each Opposition party that receives Short money is required to submit a report from an independent Sir George Young: For 2010-11, the formula used to professional auditor, after the end of each financial calculate each Opposition party’s Short money funding year, that all the expenses for which the party received is: £14,351 multiplied by the number of seats won by financial assistance under the terms of the resolution a party’s candidates at the general election; plus were incurred exclusively in connection with the party’s £27.99 multiplied by one two hundredth of the number parliamentary business. The relevant criteria are set out of votes cast at the election. The formula was set by a in notes provided to the auditors.

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 12 October 2010

Col. No. Col. No. TREASURY ...... 135 TREASURY—continued Budget Deficit Reduction...... 138 Tax Collection...... 148 Budget (Regional Differences) ...... 136 Tax Compliance...... 135 Child Benefit...... 146 Tax System...... 144 Debt Management (Bank of England)...... 140 Tax System...... 145 Departmental Spending Challenge...... 142 Tax Take (East Midlands) ...... 147 Economic Growth...... 146 Topical Questions ...... 149 Economic Growth...... 148 VAT (Small Businesses)...... 146 Economic Growth...... 149 Whips Offices...... 144 Office for Budget Responsibility ...... 141 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Tuesday 12 October 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 9WS INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 11WS Higher Education (Student Finance)...... 9WS Pakistan Floods ...... 12WS Reform of CDC Group plc ...... 14WS DEFENCE...... 9WS UN Millennium Development Goals Summit...... 11WS Light Protected Patrol Vehicle (Preferred Bidder) .. 9WS TRANSPORT ...... 16WS HEALTH...... 10WS Eco-driving Training...... 16WS NHS Constitution (Whistleblowing) ...... 10WS

HOME DEPARTMENT...... 11WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 16WS Animal Procedures Committee Annual Report...... 11WS Right to Control Regulations...... 16WS PETITION

Tuesday 12 October 2010

Col. No. Col. No. TRANSPORT ...... 5P Dartford Crossing...... 5P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 12 October 2010

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 272W DEFENCE...... 274W Departmental Billing ...... 272W Aircraft Carriers ...... 274W Departmental Empty Property...... 273W Christopher Myers...... 275W Departmental Press: Subscriptions ...... 273W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 275W Departmental Secondment ...... 273W Departmental Secondment ...... 276W Female Genital Mutilation...... 273W Sentencing: Appeals...... 274W EDUCATION...... 262W Academies: Equality ...... 262W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 282W Academies: Finance ...... 262W Business Links: Manpower ...... 282W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 265W National Apprenticeship Service...... 283W New Schools Network...... 266W Public Holidays...... 283W Train to Gain Programme ...... 284W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 261W Vocational Training: West Midlands ...... 284W Energy: Prices ...... 261W Feed-in Tariffs...... 261W CABINET OFFICE...... 286W Wind Power ...... 261W Employment ...... 286W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 287W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 257W Borneo: Forests...... 287W Local Government: Pay ...... 257W Departmental Contracts ...... 287W Col. No. Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY STANDARDS continued AUTHORITY COMMITTEE—continued Human Rights and Democracy Strategic Telephone Services: Manpower...... 261W Programme Fund...... 288W JUSTICE...... 266W Convictions...... 266W HEALTH...... 270W Convictions: Theft ...... 268W Abortion: Young People ...... 270W Crimes of Violence: Sentencing...... 267W Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency...... 270W LEADER OF THE HOUSE...... 285W Our Life ...... 271W Members: Pensions ...... 285W

HOME DEPARTMENT...... 276W PRIME MINISTER ...... 284W Antisocial Behaviour Orders ...... 276W Departmental Fines ...... 284W Domestic Violence ...... 276W SCOTLAND...... 271W Firearms ...... 277W Departmental Contracts ...... 271W Hillsborough Independent Panel...... 277W Departmental Manpower...... 271W Immigration...... 278W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 272W Immigration Controls ...... 278W Departmental Secondment ...... 272W Protocol on Transitional Provisions ...... 279W Departmental Work Experience...... 272W

HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 262W TRANSPORT ...... 257W Bars: Prices ...... 262W Severn Bridges Tolls...... 257W TREASURY ...... 280W INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY Child Poverty ...... 280W STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE ...... 258W Comprehensive Spending Review...... 281W Apex Communications...... 258W Departmental Spending ...... 281W Calyx (UK) ...... 258W EU Globalisation Fund ...... 281W GovGap ...... 259W Interest Rates and Government Borrowing...... 280W Manpower...... 259W Revenue and Customs: Telephone Services ...... 282W Members: Allowances ...... 259W SMEs ...... 280W Pay...... 260W Tax System...... 281W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Tuesday 12 October 2010

Col. No. LEADER OF THE HOUSE...... 3MC Short Money...... 3MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Tuesday 19 October 2010

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF THE VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their Speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), on application to the Stationery Office, c/o the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons, from whom the terms and conditions of reprinting may be ascertained. Application forms are available at the Vote Office.

PRICES AND SUBSCRIPTION RATES DAILY PARTS Single copies: Commons, £5; Lords, £3·50. Annual subscriptions: Commons, £865; Lords, £525. WEEKLY HANSARD Single copies: Commons, £12; Lords, £6. Annual subscriptions: Commons, £440. Lords, £225. Index: Annual subscriptions: Commons, £125; Lords, £65. LORDS VOLUME INDEX obtainable on standing order only. Details available on request. BOUND VOLUMES OF DEBATES are issued periodically during the session. Single copies: Commons, £105; Lords, £40. Standing orders will be accepted. THE INDEX to each Bound Volumeof House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. WEEKLY INFORMATION BULLETIN compiled by the House of Commons, giving details of past and forthcoming business, the work of Committees and general information on legislation, etc. The Annual Subscription includes also automatic despatch of the Sessional Information Digest. Single copies: £1·50. Annual subscriptions: £53·50. All prices are inclusive of postage Volume 516 Tuesday No. 50 12 October 2010

CONTENTS

Tuesday 12 October 2010

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 135] [see index inside back page] Chancellor of the Exchequer

Higher Education and Student Finance [Col. 155] Statement—(Vince Cable)

Royal Commission (London) [Col. 179] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Mr Thomas)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill [Col. 183] Programme Motion (No. 2)—(Jeremy Wright)—on a Division agreed to Considered in Committee

Petition [Col. 302]

Yousaf Family [Col. 305] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Epilepsy Services [Col. 1WH] Human Trafficking [Col. 25WH] Tourette Syndrome [Col. 49WH] Offshore Wind Infrastructure Competition [Col. 57WH] Rights of Victims and Families [Col. 66WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 9WS]

Petition [Col. 5P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 257W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 3MC]