Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

FRIDAY, 20 OCTOBER 1961

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

890 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Questions

FRIDAY, 20 OCTOBER, 1961

Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. D. E. Nicholson, Murrumba) took the chair at 11 a.m.

QUESTIONS

STATE RENTAL HoUSES AT GROVELY Mr. LLOYD (Kedron) asked the Treasurer and Minister for Housing- "Has the Department of the Army advised the Queensland Housing Com­ mission that it no longer requires the tenancy of State rental houses erected at the Gravely housing project? If not, how many tenancies will the Department be requiring during the present year of houses (a) being erected and (b) already erected? Hon. T. A. HILEY (Chatsworth) replied- "No. The allocation for the Depart­ ment of the Army for 1961-1962 is twenty-one houses which will be met from houses to be erected at Gaythorne."

EMPLOYMENT OF YoUTHS IN INDUSTRY Mr. HANLON (Baroona) asked the Minister for Labour and Industry- "(!) Has his attention been drawn to a statement this week in the House of Representatives by the Commonwealth Minister for Labour, Mr. McMahon, that the number of youths entering the work­ force late this year or early next year was estimated at not more than 95,000 and that this would be a small increase on the number who were 'readily absorbed' in the current year?" "(2) Is it not a fact that his Depart­ ment's experience in this State in the current year was that such youths were far from 'readily absorbed' and that 8 I 8 school-leavers from last year were still unemployed in August?" "(3) Is he yet in possession of an approximate estimate of the number of school-leavers who will be seeking employment at the end of this year and early next year?" "(4) In view of his assurance that every State Minister and departmental officer is making every effort to combat this prob­ lem and that such efforts could be seriously undermined by the casual approach of the Commonwealth as instanced by Mr. McMahon's remarks, will he urgently put before Mr. McMahon the factual position so that the Commonwealth Government might play its full part in absorbing the already alarming number of unemployed youths into industry?" Questions [20 OCTOBER] Questions 891

Hon. K. J. MORRIS (Mt. Coot-tha) "(7) If the maximum speed of thirty replied- miles per hour in built-up areas and fifty "(1 to 4) In part (4) of this question, miles per hour in the country was not or the Honourable Member has, I hope quite could not be enforced, how is it proposed inadvertently, so phrased the question to to enforce the increased speeds?" suggest that I believe only a casual Hon. K. J. MORRIS (Mt. Coot-tha) approach is being made by the Common­ replied- wealth towards the very worrying problem of unemployment. I would most certainly "(1) I Study all aspects of this problem. not be associated with such a suggestion Unfortunately the Honourable Member because to my knowledge not only Mr. does not appear to correctly interpret the McMahon, but other Members of the word 'speed' in the context he quotes. Federal Government are not only deeply Speed is relative, and, whilst ten miles concerned about it, but are using all their per hour is excessive in some circum­ efforts to try and overcome it. Further, stances, sixty miles per hour is not exces­ it is not necessary for me to personally sive in others." bring these matters before the Honourable "(2) As it applied in certain areas, Yes." W. McMahon because employment exchanges are under the administration of "(3) A reference by him to reports of the Federal Government. As recently as the Traffic Courts adequately answers this yesterday, Mr. McMahon was speaking to question. Whilst prosecutions are frequent, me on the telephone in relation to this I recognise that he desires persecution. It problem and I am certain that whilst is my belief that, in the aspect of road retirements at the end of December will discipline, Queensland's record is better undoubtedly create vacancies for a great than the Australian average." number of school leavers, additional efforts "(4) The figure used was the 'Tele­ will be made to place all in employment." graph's,' not mine." "(5) Certainly not, and the Honourable INCREASED SPEED LIMITS OF MOTOR Member is only encouraging law-breakers VEHICLES by making such suggestions." Mr. AIK.ENS (Townsville South) asked the "(6) The Honourable Member's deduc­ Minister for Labour and Industry- tion indicates conclusively that he has a deplorable lack of knowledge of his "(1) When he recently announced that subject." the speed limit had been increased from thirty to forty miles per hour in built-up "(7) By the exercise of commonsense and areas and from fifty to sixty miles per modern methods. Having had some con­ hour in the country areas, was he aware siderable Parliamentary service, he should that ey~ry authority competent to express know by now that, generally speaking, the an opmwn on the subject rated speed as public will co-operate fully with reasonable the greatest single contributing factor to laws, but that this co-operation does not the awful toll of the road?" exist where laws are not reasonable. The . "(2) In press statements announcing the success being attained in Queensland is mcreased. s_peeds, did he say that the illustrated by the fact that, whilst regis­ trations of motor vehicles have increased gr~a~ maJonty of motorists were already dnvmg at such speeds and that his action by approximately 40,000 in the past two m:r~ly gave official recognition to an years, road deaths have not increased. ex1stmg practice?" Also, that, whilst the speed limits were raised on July 24, 1961, road deaths were, "(3) If so, and he thus admitted that he from that date, to September 23-for 1959, had official_ knowledge of this systematic 73; for 1960, 58; and for 1961, 57." defian~e of the law, what action did he tak:, If any, as Minister in charge of the Police Force, to insist that the law should ESTABLISHMENT OF DIABETIC CLINICS be observed?" Mr. TUCKER (Townsville North) asked "(4) Is it a fact, as reported in the the Minister for Health and Home Affairs- 'Telegraph' newspaper of October 18, 1961, "Will he give serious consideration to on page 7, that one motorist in ten fails the setting-up of a series of diabetic clinics to yield right of way?" throughout the State and particularly in Townsville to cater for people suffering "(5) Is it a fact that he issued orders to from this complaint who undoubtedly the Police Force some time ago that require specialised care and treatment?" offenders were not to be prosecuted for !raffic br:aches unless they were involved Hon. H. W. NOBLE (Yeronga) replied- m an acctdent or collision?" "Any person who suffers from diabetes "(6) If not, why are prosecutions against can receive free treatment at any hospital. traffic offenders, who were not involved in At Townsville there is a visiting specialist a collision or accident, so rare as to be physician who undertakes the treatment almost non-existent?" of such patients." 892 Landlord and Tenant [ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment Bill

PAPERS Dealing first with the proposal to exclude business premises from the operation of the The following paper was laid on the Act, it may be mentioned that the application table, and ordered to be printed:- of rent control to business premises is a Report of the Fish Board for the year survival from war-time conditions and at 1960-1961. present there remain only some 136 business The following paper was laid on the premises to which Part II of the Act relating table:- to determination of rents applies. Generally, the policy has been gradually to exclude Regulation under the Traffic Acts, 1949 business premises from the operation of to 1960. Part II, and it appears that the time is now opportune to exclude this class of premises VAGRANTS, GAMING, AND OTHER from all provisions of the Act, including OFFENCES ACTS AMENDMENT BILL Part III relating to recovery of possession.

INITIATION As a general principle it may be said that artificial control of rentais of business Hon. K. J. MORRIS (Mt. Coot-tha­ premi·ses can be justified only in extraordinary Minister for Labour and Industry): I move- circumstances, such as in war-time or during "That the House will, at its present sit­ an acute shortage of business accommodation. ting, resolve itself into a Committee of as in an immediate post-war period. In the the Whole to consider of the desirableness light of experience during the last four of introducing a Bill to amend the years I am quite satisfied that, in present Vagrants, Gaming, and Other Offences circumstances, the controls on business prem­ Acts, 1931 to 1959, in certain particulars." ises are not operating fairly and that no Motion agreed to. good purpose would be served by continuing the control in this sphere. From inquiries that have been made, it LABOUR AND INDUSTRY ACTS would seem that there is no serious shortage AMENDMENT BILL of business accommodation at present but INITIATION rather that a process of rearrangement of accommodation has been going on for some Hon. K. J. MORRIS (Mt. Coot-tha­ time. The higher-priced accommodation of Minister for Labour and Industry): I move- the Brisbane central city area is forcing some "That the House will, at its present sit­ types of business to seek alternative premises ting, resolve itself into a Committee of the in the perimeter areas, but this may Whole to consider of the desirableness of ultimately prove to be advantageous rather introducing a Bill to amend the Labour than otherwise. and Industry Acts, 1946 to 1960, in certain The second important feature is that the particulars." Bill makes provision for the replacement Motion agreed to of the present arbitrary basis of "capital value" of premises as used in making rental LANDLORD AND TENANT ACTS determinations by providing a new basis for AMENDMENT BILL determining "capital value" which generally will be present-day actual value less 20 per INITIATION IN COMMITTEE cent. (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Taylor, Considerable relief and some measure of Clayfield, in the chair.) justice were given to landlords by the 1957 amendment of the Act, which changed the Hon. A. W. MUNRO (Toowong-Minister general basis for capital value in rental for Justice) (11.9 a.m.): I move- determinations from 10 February, 1942, to "That it is desirable that a Bill be intro­ I July, 1948. Consistent with the policy of a duced to amend the Landlord and Tenant gradual rationalisation of artificial controls, Acts, 1948 to 1957, in certain particulars." and bearing in mind that since 1 July, 1948, building costs have greatly increased, it is The proposed Bill covers four main prin- considered that the formula for determining ciples which may be shortly stated as­ capital values should be further revised to (1) The exclusion of all business premises bring it more into line with present-day from the operation of the Landlord and values. Tenant Acts; Mr. Newton: Because of no price control; (2) A revision of the general basis of that is why. It is still under the charge of the rental controls by reference to capital your department. values more in conformity with present­ day costs; Mr. MUNRO: The hon. member savs that the increase in building costs since 1 J ufy, (3) Provision for an interim general 1948, has been because of no price control. increase of 15 per cent in lawful rentals That is not a serious interjection because, in pending determination by the court; and the first place, I might point out that during (4) A limitation of a lessee's right to the first nine years of that period a Labour recover rent overpaid to the total amount Government were in power with a fairly com­ of excess rent for a period of 12 months. plete operation of price ,control. Furthermore, Landlord and Tenant [20 OCTOBER] Acts Amendment Bill 893 the general trend towards increased building Mr. MUNRO: No. There will be no costs has been reasonably uniform through­ alteration in regard to those houses that are out Australia. As the hon. member made that not under control. interjection, I should like to mention that Mr. Hanlon: How do you justify that? the increase in building costs in Queensland was very much greater in those early years- Mr. MUNRO: That can be amply justi­ 1948, 1949, 1950, 1951, 1952-when price fied. If the hon. member would like me to control operated than it has been since. depart from what I intended to say ~nd Mr. Duggan: That is only because of the justify it now, I should say that the actwn unemployment position. taken in 1957, in terms of which new con­ struction was made free from these harsh Mr. MUNRO: One interjection is made, rental restrictions, has made a tremendous it is proved to be completely fallacious, and contribution towards solving the housing the Leader of the Opposition then changes problem. it round to something altogether different. We are used to that, but it really is not very Opposition Members interjected. effective. Mr. MUNRO: Since 1957, and directly as Mr. Newton: Why have you held an a result of the very wise legislation then intro­ inquiry into the timber industry since you duced there has been a tremendous increase have been elected to office? in th; number of flats built in Brisbane for rental purposes. That has been a most Mr. MUNRO: The timber industry is a material contribution to the relief of the matter that does not come within the scope housing problem. It is the sort of thing that of the Bill. has helped to get away fr<:m the ~e~rible Taking all factors into account and adopt­ state of affairs under the prevwus admmistra­ ing a positive approach in line with present­ tion, with housing settlements in Victoria day conditions, it is considered that "capital Park. value" for the purpose of determining rentals should generally be defined as present-day As in the 1957 amendment, reasonable actual value less 20 per cent. The exception notice will be given before the new basis to this is the case where a dwelling-house becomes operative, and it is considered that has been built since 1 July, 1948, and where the most convenient date for operation of the value as at date of construction, after the new basis will be 1 March, 1962, which making allowance for depreciation, is greater corresponds with 1 March, 1958, on the than the generally defined net capital value. occasion of the previous amendment. The construction date net capital value will The third principle is that, in order to then apply. This approach will even out avoid the congestion which could occur if inconsistencies that have arisen in applying every increase in rent due to the change in arbitrarily a capital value based on a par­ the "capital value" basis were to be deter­ ticular date which is remote both in time mined in the Court, a transition procedure and in substance from present-day values. similar to that which followed the 1957 Mr. Bennett: How do they fix that 20 per amendment, will be adopted. The Bill cent.? therefore will make provision so that, pend­ ing any application to the Fair Rents Court, Mr. MUNRO: The 20 per cent., which is a landlord of premises which existed at a diminution, is a somewhat arbitrary allow­ 1 July, 1948, will be entitled to increase his ance, but a fair and reasonable one, to reduce what otherwise would be the impact of a lawful or recoverable rental, after 1 March, very substantial increase in certain rentals. 1962, by 15 per cent. after giving fourteen I think hon. members opposite will recognise days' notice in writing to the lessee. that, because these adjustments in getting In this connection it must be recognised away from the war-time economy necessarily that there are a number of factors, other involved fairly substantial increases in rental than the defined capital value, which affect in some cases, it is a fair thing to cushion rental determinations. It follows from this that effect on the tenant by giving him the that, when cases are determined by the benefit of a 20 per cent. allowance by way Court the actual increases will not be of reduction in the capital value. uniform, although generally the increases will Mr. Houston: Is this the sugar coating to tend to remove anomalies and will result in a nasty Bill? rentals which will be more consistent and more uniform than at present. Mr. MUNRO: No, this is not a sugar coat­ ing to a nasty Bill. It is an eminently sound The fourth principle is that there will be a Bill and is consistent in that respect with limitation of a lessee's right to recovery of the other Bills that I have introduced. The over-paid rent to the total amount of excess Bill has an eminently fair approach, and rent paid for a period of 12 months. consideration has been given to its effects At present, where a sum has been over­ on all parties. paid on account of rent, whether or not the Mr. Hanlon: Will houses untenanted before lessee had agreed to pay a rental in excess 1957 and not now under control under the of the determined rent, such sum is recover­ last amendment to the Act be brought under able in any court of competent jurisdiction this control? as a debt from the lessor. 894 Landlord and Tenant [ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment Bill

Mr. Houston: Why is this alteration being Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba West­ made? Leader of the Opposition) (11.27 a.m.): There are one or two general observations Mr. MUNRO: The reason is that under I should like to make before proceeding to the present law it could mean that rent is a consideration of the measure. Firstly, a debt, that is excess rent paid over a period I feel that the Premier, as Leader of the of six years could be recovered. It is apparent Government, might give some consideration that consideration must be given to restrict­ to the disability under which the Opposition ing the recovery of excess rent to the amount operate in regard to notice of the following paid for a definite period. day's legislation. The position is bad enough when the normal hours of sitting are till Mr. Bennett: Why have a different 5 o'clock and we are then told of the legis­ principle in the Bill from the principle lative programme for the following day. embodied in the Statute of Limitations? Last night we were told at twenty minutes Mr. MUNRO: That can be explained too. past 10 that the Landlord and Tenant Bill The unfairness of the present law in relation would be considered today. That is com­ to this matter is best explained if I give an pletely unreasonable. The Government know example. For instance, where a lessor has their legislative programme very well. They not applied for a fresh determination of the have skilled public servants to supply rent and, by reason of alterations to the information on Bills for Ministers, but mem­ premises, the lessor has charged a rent bers of the Opposition have only a limited higher than that determined many years time in which to consider important legis­ previously. In such a case, if an application lative enactments. had been made for a fresh determination, I make my appeal to the Premier. I have the rent might have been increased to an raised this matter before but, apparently amount equal to or greater than that actually because this is the practice in other Parlia­ charged. So the position is that while under ments and because the wishes of the Govern­ the present law quite substantially there is ment, when in Opposition, were not met by provision for retrospectivity in the recovery the previous Government, this Government of an amount that technically might be do not propose to depart from it. The regarded as overpaid, there is no provision least that could be done would be to make for retrospectivity in the determination to a copy of the Bill available to the Leader decide what is a fair rental. of the Opposition, and to indicate the or~er Mr. Bennett: If he has been charging a of business some time prior to the followmg higher rental he has been acting dishonestly. day's legislation. Why should you give consideration to that? When the first intimation is given at 20 past 10 at night there is little time to con­ Mr. MUNRO: That is not so. It might sider the matter. We go to our homes and be merely a technicality or it might be merely next morning certain routine matters have on account of an application not being made. to be attended to. There are interviews, correspondence, telephone calls and many There is one other amendment which I other things, all of which make it impossible should mention at this stage and that is in for us to do the amount of work that is the nature of a clarification of one of the necessary. amendments made in 1957. That amend­ ment gave parties who entered into a new It may be argued that this measure has lease agreement after 1 December, 1957, a been on the Business Sheet for sometime and right to agree in writing that Part Ill of the that we might speculate as to the order in Acts should not apply to that lease. The which it will be presented. That, too, is 1957 amendment provided that any such unfair. Very many duties devolve upon mem­ agreement should be "for the purpose of bers of the Opposition and it would be that lease of the said premises only and a waste of time to prepare material that for no other lease of the said premises." may not be needed for two or three weeks. Recently, it has been suggested that the legal effect of the phrase quoted could be that I think my request to the Premier is a the amendment does not permit of any sub­ reasonable one and I hope that some cog­ sequent agreement within the terms of the nisance will be taken of my complaints. 1957 provision. This certainly was not the This may be a suitable occasion to indicate intention and it is very clear that such a the Opposition's general attitude at the intro­ restriction on subsequent agreements would ductory stage of a Bill. Generally speaking, not be justified. Accordingly the provision we share the view that we should not oppose is now being rephrased to remove any pos­ the introduction of a Bill, as that course sible doubt as to interpretation and to give could deny us the opportunity of knowiJ?.g full legal effect to the intention at the time precisely what is in it. If we opposed 1ts of the 1957 amendment. introduction on the ground that we opposed the general measure, our views c~uld be The remaining provisions of the Bill are misconstrued, as was the case w1th the merely in the nature of machinery measures Liquor Acts Amendment Bill. giving legal effect to the principles which I have o•Jtlinr:ct. Mr. Aikens: You are squaring-off now. Landlord and Tenant [20 OCTOBER] Acts Amendment Bill 895

Mr. DUGGAN: I am not squaring-off, and Why should we do so? There is abundant I do not want the hon. member to make my reason. The Minister made the unsupported speech for me. I have not yet indicated our claim that owing to the actions of this attitude to the Liquor Acts Amendment Bill. Government in freeing certain provisions of Indeed, to do so would be quite wrong, in the Act some years ago many additional the light of experience. It would be highly flats had been erected for the people of dangerous to commit ourselves at the initia­ Brisbane that otherwise would not have been tory stage, because a Minister either inadver­ erected, and he said the result of all these tently or deliberately can mislead hon. mem­ things had been a reduction in building costs bers, as was done with the Industrial Concili­ ation and Arbitration Act Amendment Bill. compared with a previous comparable period. The Government had abundant evidence I contradicted him and said that one about the abandonment of cost-of-living of the reasons why building costs have adjustments and certain other important become stabilised for the moment was that, principles in that measure. We asked by way owing to the credit squeeze competition in of interjection what the Government's inten­ the building industry is now so intense that tions were and we were given certain replies people are quoting very often for houses and that were not in accordance with the buildings-in order to retain staff-prices for measure. the projects that do not return anything near Mr. Aikens: You mean you have not got a normal profit. In order to keep their organi­ your orders from the Trades Hall. sations intact and keep men in employment, they are taking that action. Further, with the Mr. DUGGAN: I do not mean anything closure of certain firms, they can purchase of the sort. I do not want the hon. member goods at more competitive rates than to make my speech. If he wants to defend formerly, because the firms that are in the Liberal Government, he may do so. difficulties have to meet certain commitments Mr. Aikens: You voted with them the other and, in order to do so, are offering sub­ day. stantial discounts in certain cases. Only at 10 o'clock this morning I left business Mr. DUGGAN: And that is going to be premises where certain building hardware our general attitude on the introduction of was for sale. Because some firms in the South Bills. We took that attitude in regard to the have tremendous surplus stock they are flood­ Liquor Bill. We may agree with some of its ing the Brisbane market at under cost to provisions but, if we voted against its intro­ dispose of it. Obviously that will be reflected duction we would not be able to indicate our immediately in lower tender prices in the attitude to those provisions later on. building industry. My statement applies to all Bills and to What do the figures for rents reveal? The this one. There are many Bills on which the quarterly summary of Australian statistics, Opposition and the Government may share a March, 1959, No. 235, of variations in the measure of agreement. As a matter of fact retail price index, under the "C" series index, our policy on many matters, laid down by in respect of rent in capital cities, from our triennial convention, may oblige us to June, 1957-approximately the time when we give consideration to certain proposals that vacated office in the State-to March, 1959, come before the House so that we can ven­ shows that increases were as follows:- tilate our views, and to vote against the - introduction of a measure would prevent our Increase offering views in this Chamber. It is the City June, 1957 I March, 1959 responsibility of the Opposition to determine Points Points Points what it does, including whether it should Sydney .. 113·5 I 125·5 12·0 Melbourne 123·3 134·8 11·5 oppose or not oppose the introduction of a BRISBANE .. 111·0 142·2 31=28% Bill. Adelaide .. 124·8 145·7 20·9 Perth .. .. 169·2 184·5 15·3 Having said that, I want to make it abun­ Hobart .. 151·9 173·8 21·9 dantly clear that generally speaking the Opposition's attitude is that we will await the Base ofindex : Year 1952-53 = lOO introduction of a Bill before we declare our There has been a 28 per cent. increase during final attitude to it. That attitude is taken the period the present Government have because of the misleading information given been in office, yet they have the colossal on many occasions by Ministers. We are not impertinence to suggest they have been going to commit ourselves irrevocably until responsible for reducing rents. How con­ we see what is in a measure. However, in fusing the picture becomes and how appro­ regard to this Bill I indicate here and now priate it is that the trade union movement that we think it is completely undesirable should view this Bill with suspicion. The that it should be introduced, and I indicate position under the new Consumer Price on behalf of the Opposition that we intend Index, taken from the Quarterly Summary to oppose its introduction. We will vote of Australian Statistics, dated June, 1960, accordingly. No. 240 relating to variations in the group 896 Landlord and Tenant [ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment Bill index numbers-housing group-for the an immediate rise in rents up to 40 per cent. capital cities from June, 1957, to June, 1960, for flats and 65 per cent. for houses. On that is as follows:- occasion the landlords were able to increase rents by up to 20 per cent. without court City Year ended Year ended Increase permission and in innumerable cases they June, 1957 June, 1960 increased them far beyond that margin. Points Points Points Frightened tenants accepted it because they Sydney . . 120·0 133·8 13·8 13·0 knew they had no alternative place to go. ~Ri~'B'1~E :: 1 m:~ m:~ 14·2 Very often people have had to accept the Adelaide . 129·2 140·0 10·8 situation for reasons like that. Perth . . . ·1. 123·6 133·5 9·9 Hobart . . 133·3 148·5 15·2 A survey by a Brisbane research worker, the result of which was published recently in Base ofindex : Year 1952-53 = 100 "The Courier-Mail", indicated that high rents Those figures depict the true situation. It of substandard housing appeared to be the is abundantly clear that with the C Series direct cause of some mothers working. The Index there was a 28 per cent. increase, as figures disclosed by the survey, published in recorded by the statistician. Those figures do "The Courier-Mail" of 16 August, 1960, not fairly represent the actual costs in those indicated that the great majority of those areas. They are more on the low scale than women, who should be at home looking after the high scale. their children, were not working because of What happened when Victoria dealt with their desire to augment the family income to rent control? I quote now from the Tax­ enjoy a higher standard of living but because payers' Journal, and an editorial in a Sydney it was impossible, on the wages their hus­ newspaper "Daily Mirror" of 21 July, 1960, bands were receiving, to pay the astronomi­ which says- cally high rentals obtaining in the capital city and in most of the provincial cities of "The increase of 18s. in the cost of living the State. in Victoria, as disclosed by the Common­ wealth Statistician's quarterly figures, is It is all very well for the Minister to talk largely contributable to the lifting of rent about the availability of homes and other control. accommodation on the basis he suggests. The Bolte Government abolished control There was a time when it was generally of rent from April 1 last. regarded that one-fifth of the family income As a natural consequence, rents have might be absorbed in rent but today it is risen. It is estimated the increases impossible to get a reasonably habitable flat accounted for lls. 5d. of the Victorian 18s. in Brisbane for under £5 a week, and many cost-of-living increase." cost as high as £7, £8 and £9 a week. It is impossible to get a private home in Bris­ That is what happened in Victoria, and from bane under £5 a week. People have come the figures I have given we know what hap­ down from Toowoomba, compulsorily trans­ pened in Queensland from 1957 to 1960. ferred, have tramped around real estate Superimposed on that is this flat principle of agents' offices and looked at many houses in current values less 15 per cent. and the option an endeavour to get in Brisbane a house of 14 days' notice to pay the increase, or get comparable with that which they had in out. We saw what happened in Sydney where, Toowoomba for not more than £5 a week. despite a more substantial measure of protec­ It is a very ordinary house indeed that they tion for landlords than in other States, a can get for that figure. On the old basis magistrate only this week, fined a landlord they would need an income of £25 a week £250 because he shut out on the footpath to meet that obligation. Today it would be a pregnant married woman with two child­ more to the order of one-third of the family ren who was paying £8 a week for a two­ income that is taken up in rent. roomed flat. They were locked out and were obliged to remain out on the footpath. The It seems to be fashionable for Liberal magistrate said it was one of the worst cases Ministers and other Liberal spokesmen to that had come to his notice. It is obvious say that these matters are not very important that we should oppose "this measure very because the facts do not support the alle­ strongly. gations of Labour speakers and trade union As far as prices and rent control are con­ representatives and others who speak on cerned the Minister should have the behalf of the ordinary people in the com­ Premier's agreement in changing the name of munity who, because of conditions, are not his portfolio. It used to be said facetiously able to own their own homes. in the Chamber that the Attorney-General A bulletin issued by the Commonwealth was neither an Attorney nor a General. The Statistician in March, 1959, had this to say­ present title of the portfolio is still a mis­ "Higher rents have been the most nomer; the Minister should be called not the significant factor in increasing living costs Minister for Justice but the Minister for in the last six years." Injustice. According to the "Brisbane Telegraph" of He went on to say that, 27 November, 1957, the Minister said that "Although all-over living costs had risen the average rent increase would be not more by 19 per cent. since 1952-1953, rents than 27 per cent. but the court itself granted had risen by 37.4 per cent." Landlord and Tenant [20 OCTOBER] Acts Amendment Bill 897

Despite this, the Federal Liberal Minister We find that the Housing Commission gives for the Navy, Senator Gorton, had the gall preference to people with a £250 deposit pri­ to tell the Senate that so many people owned ority in the allocation of rental houses, irre­ their own homes that he did not think it spective of their housing requirements. A necessary to take rents into account when person may have a very high points' priority introducing a new index for the cost of living. rating in Brisbane or a provincial city, yet Let me quote the report that appeared in still be waiting months and months to get 'The Courier-Mail" of 24 August, 1960- into a sufficiently high bracket to warrant the "So many Australians now owned their allocation of a house to him. Somebody else own homes that it did not seem necessary who contemplates marriage, wlro may be for rents to be taken into consideration in in very affluent circumstances and well able the cost of living index, the Navy Minister to finance building operations outside the (Senator Gorton) said yesterday." ambit of the Housing Commission, may come along and get a house immediately because This situation is crying aloud for some con­ he can produce £250. Priority in the allo­ demnation by members of Parliament in tlris cation of houses is given to people such as Chamber. that in order to avoid, as the Treasurer said Let us see what the Treasurer had to say on one occasion, the principle of State land­ on this matter, not 12 months ago, but as lordism in the community. People who have _rec~n~ly as February of this year. In not got their own homes will be called upon Imtmtmg the State Housing Acts Amend­ to pay these increased rentals. Why does ment Bill on 21 February, in Volume 229 of not the Minister be consistent and say to all "Hansard," page 2191, he said that Queens­ lending authorities, "We think the value of land needed 8,000 homes a year. In the houses had increased by 15 per cent. since same . volume of "Hansard," at page 2264, the contract with the builders was made, so speakmg on the same Bill he had this to we will give you the opportunity of recoup­ say- ing from the borrowers the increased pay­ " I hope it has been made abundantly ments represented by the 15 per cent. clear from statements I lrave made inside increase in values since the house was built"? and outside the Chamber that the Govern­ The Government do not do that, but they ment view the matter of an increase in do it to the person who cannot afford it, the interest rates for this field of housing person on the lower-wage bracket in the (Housing Commission) with real concern. community. By their legislation they pre­ We are doing all we can to resist any vent him from using this increase to get an increase in the rates. There is no way alteration in wages, because quarterly adjust­ in which increased rates will not quickly ments in the cost of living are no longer be reflected in increased rents and in our operative. The person on the ordinary wage judgment rents are high eno~gh. I want who will be hit by this impost will have the to make the position quite clear. The mat­ opportunity only once a year of having the ter was raised, and properly raised, and I union's advocate ask the court to take into think tire Committee is entitled to such a account tlris increase in rent. declaration." I think it is a shocking state of affairs. Yet here, without any excuse and without any I do not know why the Minister should have reasonable explanation, the Minister says that introduced the Bill. There may have been some forthwith he is going to give the landlords justification for the adjustment made pre­ without any obligation on their part, th~ viously, but I cannot see the reason for this opportunity to increase rents by 15 per cent. one. Take insurance policies. I have three or on top of the present high rents. He admits four maturing in the next three or four years. quite bluntly that the Court will be flooded Does the insurance office come to me and witlr applications. If he were conscious of say, "You took out an insurance policy, 25, his obligations he would see that there was 30 or 35 years ago. Because of the depre­ sufficient staff to cope with the demands ciation in the value of money today, we made upon the Courts, whether in criminal are going to give you 50 or 60 per cent. jurisdiction or civil jurisdiction, because that more than the sum assured''? Did the is his job. But to avoid congestion, and so Government say to people outside in receipt that these people can get an increase prior of superannuation benefits, including widows to the operation of the orderly processes of of some members of Parliament, "We take !aw, h~ is giving them the opportunity of into account the difficulties you have to mcreasmg rents by 15 per cent. immediately, meet with the rising cost of living and there­ rents which the Treasurer said in this fore we are making some adjustment in Chamber were already too high. your pension"? If I have £100 in a savings Right through the Budget that the bank account the bank does not say, "We Treasurer presented recently, emphasis was know that the amount in your account has placed on the inflationary spiral and the cost now only half the purchasing power it had factor. This Bill will do nothing but acceler­ when you banked it" and make an adjust­ ate the spiral. It will make further demands ment accordingly. No, tlre bank says, "You for wa.ge increases absolutely imperative. deposited £100; we will pay you simple Who wiJI bear this burden? The or_dinary interest on £100." people m tlre community, who can least Mr. Smith: Has not your house increased afford it. in value? 29 898 Latuilord and Tenant [ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment Bill

Mr. DUGGAN: That is because I have to deteriorate the already serious financial spent quite a sum of money on it. Any position they are in with the Consolidated money I have spent on my own home has Revenue Fund. We all have some apprecia­ been for the convenience of myself and tion of the manner in which many people family, not for any speculative purpose at have benefited by way of capital gains in all. If there is any upward movement in the value of their property in recent years. the value of a home it is of no value to That has been going on apace since the end most people because generally they do not of World War II. when controls were lifted. purchase a home for sale later on. They If a person sells a house purchased a few buy a home because it is convenient to their years ago he gets the advantage of the place of employment or for some other increased market value. He gets an increase private reason. free of tax in his capital. Why allow him to further exploit his position by permitting Mr. Smith: Would not your home have him to increase his rent substantially because increased in value if it had been maintained of the capital gain he has already made by in its original condition? virtue of the inflated value of his property? Mr. DUGGAN: That may be, too. Would As I understood the Minister when he intro­ there have been the same disposition on the duced the Bill, that is the guiding motive of part of the Government had there been a the Government in bringing down this legis­ decline in value? Would they have said lation. We have had experience of how the that they were going to reduce rents by 15 inflationary spiral has accelerated in Queens­ per cent.? That has never been done before land since the removal of the wide controls by Liberal people in my experience. exercised by a former Government. Are we to continue to allow this sort of thing I am indicating in a general way that the to happen, in the final analysis giving benefit provisions expounded by the Minister are to nobody but creating a most difficult posi­ undesirable. They outrage decent people's tion for the Government? It is beyond my sense of fairness in such matters. They will comprehension why the Government, already constitute a very heavy burden on a great in a great financial mess, should bring down number of people throughout the State. They legislation that will undoubtedly increase will add to the cost spiral. They will be their difficulties throughout the State. reflected in higher governmental charges. In New South Wales where quarterly basic wage Mr. Hanlon: Particularly as it will not be adjustments still apply increased rents have reflected in the consumer index as it was been reflected in the demands for higher in the "C" Series index. wages to the extent of £3,250,000. The Queensland Government, of course, try to Mr. HILTON: This will be reflected in the dodge their obligations by abolishing consumer index in due course. I appreciate quarterly adjustments. Whatever way they that, with the consumer index, the position are looked at the provisions are unfair and will be much more difficult for the ordinary unreasonable. person who has to pay rent. Despite the fact that in Queensland there is the highest I have not dealt with business premises. percentage _of home-ownership, there is still They have a case for protection. I would a great number of people who, because of not mind if the Minister said that buildings their callings in life and other factors, will constructed on such-and-such a date shall be have to pay rent. There will always be that free of rent control. People would go in with substantial body of rent payers. Because of their eyes open. But they have built up that, rent will be reflected in the basic wage businesses, worked hard to develop them in due course, although not as it should be and obtained an equity in them only to find in the present index considered by the Gov­ that renewal of their leases will be contingent ernment when reviewing the cost of living. upon their paying increased rentals that are not subject to any court authority. For the I consider that, if people are benefiting by reasons I have advanced we propose to vote their capital gains, that should be sufficient. against the Bill. It is not at all fair that the Government, in order to cater for a few people, should (Time expired.) allow them to gain advantage because of their present capital gains. In America, Hon. P. J. R. HILTON (Carnarvon) there is a special tax on capital gains. That (11.53 a.m.): I oppose the legislation as out­ has never applied in Australia. Perhaps the lined by the Minister. I am amazed that such time is coming when the position will force a Bill should be brought down at this stage some action in that direction. It might when obviously it is going to have the effect be a good thing for the economy of the of increasing the cost of living-and the country as a whole when that occurs. basic wage in due course-thus putting the Government in a greater financial mire than Whilst we hear much talk about many they are in at the present time. To my mind aspects in America, we should bear in mind it seems that in giving undue weight to the that for many years a severe capital gains principle of capital gain the Government are tax has operated there. Such a tax does not bringing down legislation to benefit a few operate here and people who are fortunate but which will make the position difficult for enough to purchase a house at a price much a great many. In doing that they are going below what its value will be in a few years Landlord and Tenant (20.!0CTOBER) Acts Amendment Bill 899 time, should be content with the profit they adopts what we might term an oily type of will eventually reap without being given speech, and wraps Iris words around with increased rental to further enhance their quite a lot of sophistry, hypocrisy, and profit. casuistry, but I was unable to hear what he was saying because of the hideous babble in I think a wise system of price control the Chamber-not a very good example for exercised in this State in relation to rental the school children in the gallery. I was so and other commodities, is essential in order interested, Mr. Taylor, and you would have to at least restrain to some extent the spiral noticed it, that I walked from my accustomed of inflation that has operated to our detri­ place to sit behind the Minister. I referred ment generally and to the detriment of to babble and now we have it again. Every workers particularly in recent years. time anyone stands up to speak, tlle hon. For those reason I strongly oppose any member for Merthyr starts to chatter like a legislation that is calculated to accelerate the monkey picking fleas off his castanets. spiral of inflation that is seriously affecting the workers of this State and placing strain An A.L.P. Member: That is a reflection on on the finances of Government. I oppose the Chair. this Bill. Mr. AIKENS: The Chairman has tried time Mr. AIKENS (Townsville South) (11.59 and time again-- a.m.): First of all, I wish to join with the Leader of the Opposition in expressing my The CHAIRMAN: Order! I think the hon. concern at the short notice given of the member has expressed himself sufficiently on introduction of this Bill. While agreeing with that point. the Leader of the Opposition now I remind Mr. AIKENS: I cannot even hear what him that when his Government were in con­ you are saying for the babble, Mr. Taylor. trol of the Treasury benches they played exactly the same tricks. I do not want to The CHAIRMAN: Will the hon. member embarrass you, Mr. Taylor, by asking you please address himself to the Bill? I think he to remember this, but they never let us know has said enough about other matters. what Estimates were to be discussed after the Estimates then under discussion were Mr. AIKENS: I was forced to go and sit disposed of. behind the MiiJister. Listen to the babble now, Mr. Taylor. Immediately I start to Mr. Benoett: Did you ever ask? speak, it starts. You threatened to throw Mr. AIKENS: Yes. If the hon. member him out last night, Mr. Taylor, and I am for South Brisbane, who is making one of sorry you did not. his rare appearances in the Chamber, will go The CHAIRMAN: Order! I will have to through the columns of "Hansard" he will ask the hon. member to retire from the find that I was threatened on one occasion Cllamber if he does not address himself to by the Speaker because I objected to the the Bill. Labour Government's doing the very thing tl:tat the Premier did last night. Mr. AIKENS: I am very happy that the Mr. Bennett: Because you were engaging children are listening to all this. The man in disorderly conduct. who is protesting is going to be ordered out of the Chamber. Mr. AIKENS: The hon. member should be However, I wanted to say that I was sitting the last to talk about unprofessional conduct. behind the Minister. Despite the babble, I I agree with the remark of the Leader was able to hear something of what he said of the Opposition that the Minister for Justice and what I did not llear him say-because is Minister for Justice in name only; he is of the babble-! will ask him to explain not really a Minister for Justice. I tell the during the progress of my speech. First people quite frankly that he is the Minister of all, with regard to business premises, at for profiteers, racketeers, and drunken killers, the present time, as I understand it, unless and in saying that I said the lot. the business premises has been declared to The CHAIRMAN: Order! I cannot allow come under the Landlord and Tenant Act the llon. member to make such a statement. there is no control of rent or leasing condi­ tions, but the landlord of a business premises I ask him to withdraw his last remark. has no power to summarily eject or evict Mr. AIKENS: Very well, I will withdraw his tenants; if he wants repossession of his it, and I will justify it before the bar of business premises, he must under the law public opinion. as it stands, go to the Fair Rents Court, if tlle tenant or lessee objects to vacating, and The CHAIRMAN: Order! receive an eviction order from the Fair Rents Court. I ask the Minister if that provision Mr. AIKENS: As I was very interested is to be retained to protect tenants or lessees in the contents of the Bill or as much of its against eviction by a landlord of business contents as it pleased the Minister to disclose premises. in his opening remarks, I wanted to listen very carefully to what he was saying. The The CHAIRMAN: Order! I ask the hon. Minister is somewhat softly spoken. He member to proceed with his speech. 900 Landlord and Tenant [ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment Bill

Mr. AIKENS: I thought the Minister might the case came before the Fair Rents Court pay me the courtesy of a reply but he 1s a landlord could say, "Well, while we are adopting a typical attitude. I will ask him waiting for the case to be heard I now the question again. have the legal power to increase your rent by 15 per cent." The Leader of the Opposi­ The CHAIRMAN: Order! The Minister tion cleared that point up for me. As he has the opportunity of replying when he is directly opposite the Minister he was able closes the debate. to hear what the Minister said although Mr. AIKENS: Very well. It is obvious it is possible that with the noise in the from the Minister's reluctance to reply that Chamber the Leader of the Opposition might now the landlord of a business premises have misconstrued it. I should like to point will have the right to summarily evict a out that only a couple of years ago, the tenant or lessee. That is something we Minister for Justice~if I may term him should consider seriously because we know such~introduced his first amendment to the what is happening. We know what has Landlord and Tenant Act and he provided happened in Townsville where people have for a statutory rise of 20 per cent. in the bought business premises and for reasons then existing rent of all houses that had best known to themselves they have gone been rented prior to 1 December, 1957, along to their tenants or lessees, and said, so tenants are paying 120 per cent. of the "We want you out immediately." Sometimes original rental, and this 15 per cent. will the lessees or tenants have been bluffed out, not be 15 per cent. of 100 per cent., but but on other occasions they have sought 15 per cent. of 120 per cent. That will legal advice, or my advice~which is better be the case if the Fair Rents Court does than legal advice~and I have assured them not increase values further than the 15 that even though the business premises are per cent. provided for in the measure. not subject to the Landlord and Tenant Act Mr. Houston: He expects them to go up so far as rental and other conditions are further. concerned, they are subject to the Land­ lord and Tenant Act with regard to repos­ Mr. AIKENS: Yes, and he will be bit­ session by the landlord. Cases have been terly disappointed if they do not go up heard before the Fair Rents Court in Towns­ further. ville for the repossession of these business In some respects the Minister is a like­ premises and because of the safety pro­ able fellow, but I have never known any­ vision in the Act the tenants and lessees one so viciously anti-working class. He have been protected and given a reasonable seems to get an unholy pleasure in doing time to vacate the business premises. It things that will bring misery, discontent, is obvious now that that provision is to pain, poverty and destitution to the workers_ be thrown to the wolves, and it is obvious He said that old houses are to be revalued that any unscrupulous predatory landlord ~and I was waiting for the Leader of the of business premises can go along to his Opposition to clear up a point for me~on unfortunate tenants or lessees, who, as the the 1948 value. Some of the houses in Leader of the Opposition said, over a period Townsville are 50 years to 70 years old. of years may have laboured hard to build I know houses in my own locality in up their business and establish good will, Townsville that were built for £150 to and the landlord can now say, "I want £200 and very little has been done to them possession of my premises for no par­ since. The tenants are already paying £5 ticular reason. Out you go within 14 days." a week, or £250 a year, for houses that Or within the time limit provided in the cost £150 or £250 to build. Already the Bill. landlord, if he is the original landlord, is The Leader of the Opposition cleaned getting a 100 per cent. return each year up something that I proposed to ask the from his original investment and now, Minister and which, I have no doubt, he according to the Bill, the rent will rise would have treated with the contempt that another 15 per cent. As the Leader of he treated my previous question. the Opposition said, who can truthfully say that the present incumbent of the office is The CHAIRMAN: Order! a Minister for Justice? Mr. AIKENS: I understood the Minister I do not know what the position is m to say that as a result of the revaluation Brisbane. We listened to the usual high­ of old dwellings and premises a landlord falutin' phrases used by the Minister for would be able to go to the Fair Rents Justice. I think he must have practised in Court and secure an increased rental based front of a mirror before he delivered the on either 1948, or present-day values. I speech in which he said that, as a result could not hear what the Minister said, of the last amendment to the Landlord and and I am not sure that he knows himself Tenant Act, there has been a whole spate what he said, but it is obvious that after of building in Brisbane; houses have been the passage of this Bill a landlord can go erected; fiats have been constructed; apart­ along to the Fair Rents Court to secure ment houses have risen like Phoenix from a huge increase in rental based on some the ashes and consequently the recent modern value of an old dwelling or house. amendment to the Act was responsible for a I understood the Minister to say that until superabundance of accommodation. I Landlord and Tenant [20 OcTOBER] Acts Amendment Bill 901 should like to hear the views of some of their estate agents. I had a case the the metropolitan hon. members who rep­ other day of a widow whose husband resent working-class people on that statement was tragically killed and the moment of the Minister for Justice, if we may term he was killed-they were both pensioners­ him such; but I can speak for Townsville one of our biggest landlords in Townsville and say that the housing position there is advised her that he wanted her house. She tragic. had been a tenant of it with her late husband for 30-odd years and she went along to pay Only a ,couple of weeks ago I asked her rent to one of the biggest ·real estate the Treasurer. who at least has some con­ firms in Townsville and was told that he cern for the . working class, what was the would no longer take any rent from her. position with applications for rental Housing Naturally, she was nonplussed. She did Commission houses in Townsville. I am not know what to do and, very fortunately, speaking only from memory but I think she came to me. I said, "Go and get a there were 192 applicants in one category money order for the rent that you owe alone. With all the categories added and for the next fortnight's rent and send together, I think there were about 300 or it by registered post to the estate agent." 400 people in Townsville waiting for Housing She did that, and the estate agent promptly Commission houses to rent. sent it back to her by registered post and Mr. Hanlon: A total of nearly 6,000 all said, "I am no longer authorised to collect over the State. the rent for your particular home," although he was authorised to do all the other busi­ Mr. AJ.KENS: Yes, and most of them ness for that big landlord in Townsville. would be in Townsvil!e. As the Leader of the The Bill that we are now debating had not Opposition said, people wait patiently, living become law, so I sent the unfortunate widow and her relatives to the C.P.S. and in sub-standard conditions, some of them in he has protected her from being thrown shocking conditions, to get a Housing Com­ out into the street by an unscrupulous land­ mission house or flat to rent. Then, just lord, acting in concert with his estate agent. when a house is becoming vacant for rental, along goes someone with a £250 deposit, Mr. Bennett: Who was the estate agent? puts it down on the purchase of the house. that house is given to the purchaser and the Mr. AIKENS: The estate agent was prospective tenant has to wait again. I C. J. Knobel & Company, one of the biggest know, and I think the working-class rep­ in Townsville. Unlike the hon. member resentatives in this Chamber will have had for South Brisbane, I will spill the beans. If the same experiences as I have had. I I want to tip anything, I will tip the tin, the cannot imagine any widow with two or horse, the cart, and everything. three children going along to the home of the Minister for Justice and asking him to The C.P.S. at Townsville, acting under the interest himself to secure a rental house for present jaw, protected the widow. I am them. I am firmly of the opinion that if a very sorry that I have had to mention that working-class widow with two or three the C.P.S. protected the widow from this working-class kiddies went along to his home unscrupulous landlord and his estate agent he would smartly ring the police and have because I am satisfied that, now that the them arrested as vagrants. But almost every Minister for Justice knows what the C.P .S. day people come to my home and say, has done, that will be the end of promotion "Mr. Aikens, can you help me get a home? for the C.P.S. We have been along to the estate agents and the only houses that are available are, in some Government Members interjected. cases, humpies and the smallest rental we are Mr. AIKENS: That is my honest opinion asked to pay is £7 a week." How can a of the Minister, and I have the guts to widow living on a widow's pension-how express it. can a woman who is married to a man receiving, say, a couple of pounds over the Mr. Ramsden: You have not much basic wage, £15 or £16 a week-afford to intelligence. pay £6 or £7 or even £8 a week for a house? Go into the Parliamentary library Mr. AIKENS: If that remark had been and have a look at the columns of "The made by any other hon. member in the Townsville Daily Bulletin" in the advertising Chamber, it might have merited a reply. section and you will see flats, some of Fancy the hon. member for Merthyr ques­ them little more than dog kennels, advertised tioning the intelligence of any other hon. quite openly for rental at 9 guineas and 10 member! As a matter of fact, if the 78 guineas a week. Yet the Minister for Justice members of this Assembly were all of the will assure you that as a result of the same mental calibre as the hon. member for previous amendment to the Landlord and Merthyr, the Speaker of the Assembly should Tenant Act there is a plethora of houses be Dr. Stafford, the Director of Mental and flats available for tenancy throughout Hygiene in Queensland. I ask the Minister, the State. if he will graciously condescend to reply to my question in his speech in reply, "What is I should like to know from the Minister going to be done in cases such as that, where for Justice what he is going to do about the unscrupulous landlords, acting in concert unscrupulous landlords who are backed by with their estate agents, try to throw 902 Landlord and Tenant {ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment Bill widows out into the street after they have were under the previous Government. Now, paid rent on a house for upwards of 30 four and a-half years later, he is introducing years? What will happen to the widows?" more amending legislation to further increase rentals by 15 per cent., and again giving I have more or less vaguely intimated that discriminatory treatment to the many I am opposed to the Bill. If I did more than vaguely intimate that I was opposed property-owners who are utilising property to to it, I should probably be called to order exploit the present housing shortage. When or I should provoke some asinine interjec­ he made that statement in 1957 he said that tion from the hon. member for Merthyr or as a result of the legislation he was introduc­ men of his calibre. But I will say this; this ing more houses and fiats would be built; that is the sort of Bill that I would expect the we could overcome the housing shortage only Minister for Justice and the Government by that move to relinquish control over the to introduce. rentals charged by private landlords, by allowing owners of property to convert to A member of the Federal Parliament flats, and encouraging people with capital to whom I have known for many years was invest in the building of fiats and homes for talking to me the other day and speaking rental. At the same time as he introduced of his prospects of being re-elected on that legislation the Treasurer laid down the 9 December. He is a metropolitan member. policy of the Queensland Housing Commis­ He told me he proposed to seek the assist­ sion to refuse to rent any new house erected ance of some State Liberal members of under the Commonwealth-State Housing Parliament in his campaign. I said, "Look, Agreement. Since that time, as far as I think you are a pretty decent fellow. I possible, every house erected by the Housing have known you for years. If you want to stand the bolter's chance of being Commission has been sold. If it were not re-elected on 9 December, keep the State possible to sell a house in a country area, or Liberal members off your platform because at Inala, it was rented, but wherever possible it will be a political kiss of death. Because every home erected since 1957 has been sold of the Traffic Bill, the Liquor Bill, and vari­ to people able to afford to pay the deposit. ous other Bills that they have introduced, The effect of that policy has been to divert I have never known a Government to applicants from the Queensland Housing degenerate into such bad odour in such a Commission to private property-owners. short time with not only the people who Consequently there has been an increased really matter-we know, of course, that the demand for privately-owned homes, in the people who really matter are the working metropolitan area particularly. The net result class-but also other people who normally has been that very few homes anywhere near might be inclined to vote for the Country the inner city area can be obtained by Party-Liberal Government." tenants at a rental under £6 or £7 a week. The Leader of the Opposition mentioned £5 a The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. week, but in many cases that rental applies member is departing from the Bill. to homes 50 or 60 years old, or homes in Mr. AIKENS: That is my attitude. I remote parts of Brisbane where it is almost am unequivocally opposed to the Bill. It impossible to travel to work from one side is the type of Bill that I would expect of the city to the other. The ordinary wage­ Shylock to introduce. earner is being forced to pay £5, £6, £7, or £8 a week. THE CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. member is repeating himself. The Minister said that there were safe­ guards in the legislation. That is how he is Mr. AIKENS: Am I, Mr. Taylor? I trying to indicate to us that there will be did not think I had called the Minister, safeguards against exploitation. The safe­ Shylock. If Shylock were alive, and if such guards are worthless. They are not worth the a person existed, we know he would touch anybody for anything. We know that he paper that was wasted in the printing of the exists in the pages of Shakespeare, and if Bill. Every tenant going into a home, whether Shylock were alive he would take off his it was occupied prior to 1957 or not, signs hat to the Minister for Justice. a tenancy agreement. They are asked to pay the maximum rental the owner thinks he can Mr. LLOYD (Kedron) (12.20 p.m.): The receive for the property. They are obliged to Bill is typical of much of the legislation the sign an agreement that they can be thrown Minister for Justice has introduced relating to out at a fortnight's notice. It is all very well fair rents, price control and other matters for the Minister to say that they are protected affecting departments within his adminis­ under the legislation. They are protected, but tration. It is not only a callous piece of very few tenants signing agreements realise legislation but it is deliberately discrimin­ that the protection exists for them. Every atory on behalf of property-owners of day many of us, particularly those represent­ Brisbane and Queensland. When the first ing metropolitan electorates, hear about amending legislation was introduced by the people who are sharing accommodation, Minister in 1957 he said quite seriously, but perhaps with in-laws, or living under over­ unrealistically, that after the Bill was passed crowded conditions. In many instances large there would be more happy families living families are occupying houses with one under decent housing conditions than there bedroom and a lounge, or a small fiat, for Landlord and Tenant [20 OCTOBER] Acts Amendment Bill 903 which they are paying seven guineas a week. Since the 1957 legislation was introduced, When they make application to the Queens­ every owner of property has been trying to land Housing Commission for a rental home exploit the workers of this State who rent they are told that as they are already accom­ homes. The average rental paid is £6 6s., modated they cannot be considered as pros­ £7 7s., or £8 Ss. a week. If hon. members pective tenants. The very fact that they have of the Government saw some of those houses, been forced into overcrowded unsatisfactory as I have done, they would be shocked at accommodation by the legislation introduced the rental being charged. Many of them are by the Minister for Justice means nothing to small homes, 60 or 70 years old. I have the Queensland Housing Commission. Even seen some for which £6 !Os. a week is though they have been forced into paying charged merely because they contain a few seven or even eight guineas a week for rent sticks of furniture. the Commission considers them to be Surely the Minister should be more realistic adequately housed. Regardless of the rental about this matter, and consider not only they are paying they are told they have no repealing his 1957 legislation, but. impos~ng case. They have no priority with the Housing harsher restrictions upon landlords m relatiOn Commission. Sometimes they have been to rentals charged. Housing should not be a informed by the owner of the home that it is matter tied up with investment or profit­ required for his own purposes and they have making by people who have the capita.! to to vacate. They go to the Housing Commis­ build flats and homes for rental. It IS a sion and again they are told that they have social problem that, in an enlightened com­ no priority under the order of priorities laid munity, should be ove_rcome purely and down by them. The very fact that they have simply by giving people m the average wage signed an agreement that the Housing Com­ group in the community the oppor:funity to mission considers is illegal, it is sufficient to own their own homes by advancmg them prevent them from getting any priority. money at reasonable rate_s of i~terest. Because the Government have failed dismally to ov~r­ Is it any wonder that so many wives are come the housing problem and to create cir­ at the moment forced to go to work? Every cumstances by which the people of Queens­ hon. member in this Chamber would know of land can secure homes under reasona?le_ con­ c~ses of young couples forced into paying ditions and at a reasonable rental, this IS the h1gh rentals and the only way they can live only alternative they have. They have to try is for the husband and wife to work. to persuade the Co~mit~ee t~at. they are Immediately a family arrives they are in encouraging an expansiOn IJ?- bmldmg. so that financial difficulties, yet the Minister comes plenty of accommodation Will be available to along today and repeats many of the argu­ meet the demand. While landlords are able ments he used in 1957. He tells us that, to charge the high !ental_s they are no_w because of his lifting of fair rent controls he charging, accommodatiOn Will be J?ade avml­ will encourage a further expansion of the able but the Minister would be m all sorts housing programme. The same set of circum­ of bother if the rentals charged by those stances will exist subsequent to the introduc­ landlords were controlled. tion of this legislation as obtained after the At the moment the average person has an introduction of the 1957 legislation when the impossible task in meeting current. rentals. Government claimed that they set a record The Treasurer said on OJ?-e occasH;m that in the number of homes being constructed. workers had at least received an mcrease They will then sell not only the homes newly in the basic wage under the present. Govern­ erected by the Housing Commission but the ment, and he charged us With ~avmg use_d older ones being vacated by tenants. Again, rent control to prevent iJ?-c:eases m the basiC Housing Commission homes, built for rental wage I remind the M1mster of the Trea­ purposes, will be thrown on the open market surer;s statement and also of the fact that with the heavy private demand that already since the Government assumed office the exists. basic wage has advanced from £12 Is. to £14 14s. a week, or 17.8 per cent., and ~o:ne It is impossible for any young couple at proportion of that is attributable to the ltftmg present to consider living in decent condi­ of rent control. The Treasurer on Ofl:e tions as promised by the Minister in 1957, occasion said that the increase in the ba~tc unless there is some form of tight control wage gave the working man ~he opportumty over exploitation by private landlords. of paying the rentals now bemg. charged ~y owners. Although the increase m the ba~Ic I particularly mention the clause in the wage has been 17.8 per cent., the ~rst yermis­ Bill providing for a 12 months' limitation on sible increase under the 1957 legislatiOn. ~as the recovery of excess rents that have been 20 per cent., and further i.ncreases !lot VISible paid. The Minister said that if the landlord have occurred since that time, makmg a total had been underpaid during that time there is increase of at least 100 per cent. No doubt no opportunity for him to recover, but the rents will be higher when the effects of the rent has been assessed by the Fair Rents present measure are felt. Court and if there is a case for an increase The fallacy in the argument that the hig~er whe_ther for increased local authority rating basic wage gives workers the opportumty or Improvements to the property, it is the to pay current rentals is apparent when we landlord's obligation to apply for it. It is not realise that the Government and the Indus­ the obligation of the tenant to do so. trial Court now accept the Consumer Price 904 Landlord and Tenant [ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment Bill

Index rather than the "C" Series Index. At Brisbane, which could develop_ i~to a p~essu.re one time rental was taken as representing group to insist . that. the Mmist_e~ give Its one-fifth of the basic wage. One-fifth of the members somethmg, mstead of glVmg every­ present basic wage would be £2 16s. a week, thing to the owners of the property. _By and can any hon. member suggest that a this measure the Government are takmg rented home can be obtained in Brisbane or away some pounds a ~eek fre;>J? the people anywhere in Queensland for £2 16s. a week? who are trying to rmse famihes all:d save a few pounds to build hom_es of ~h~Ir own. The Queensland Housing Commission, aft~r It is all very well for Cabmet Mmisters to the recent increase in interest charges, will say, "When we were young we used to have to ask £5 a week for homes built under the new agreement. Outside rentals overall save a few shillings a week from our pay. will now be increased by 15 per cent. The We were able to save enough to pay a deposit average person will have to pay at least £7 on a home, or for the building of a home a week for a home in which to live. Average of our own." But they were never on £15 rentals throughout the community are not or £16 a week having to pay £7 or £8 taken into account in cost-of-living adjust­ a week in rent. They had the advantage ments based on the Consumer Price Index. of one-fifth of the basic wage being assessed Under the Consumer Price Index only inter­ as reasonable rental. est and redemption payments on housing We find that the Government are displaying loans are used, a most unfair development callous disregard for any people who work in the assessment of the basic wage. I ad~it for a living. Recent industrial events disclose there is a high proportion of home ownership that the Government are operating in the within the community, but not to such an interests of only one section in the com­ extent that the basis under the Consumer munity, the people who put them where they Price Index is justified. Some people are are for whom they must cater, or lose their fortunate enough to be able to purchase a fri~nds, and once they lose their friends home through the Commonwealth War at the top of the tree they lose the confidence Service branch. They may be able to secure of all the people of the State. These little an advance of £2,750 with monthly repay­ pieces of legislation are all sops for the ments of not more than £11. Repayments on Housing Commission loans may be £15 benefit of the Property Owners' Association and the present measure has been introduced to £16 a month, that is, less than £4 a w~ek, whereas outside rentals at the present time for the benefit of tJ-re Property Owner's Asso­ are £7 a week. ciation who have proved that they have been exploiting the worker and have been deliber­ Mr. Aikens: For shacks. ately discriminating against the working class. This is callous legislation. I hope Mr. LLOYD: That is so. Many flats being that hon. members in the Liberal Party repre­ offered at the moment comprise one bed­ senting Brisbane seats will rise and tell the room a small kitchen and, if the tenant is Committee about the conditions of people lucky: a bathroom that h~ has not to share living in their electorates-such as in the with someone else. That Is the type of place Windsor electorate-who share accommoda­ in which the average person is asked to tion and live in over-crowded circumstances. live but the Minister and Liberal Party mem­ If hon. members opposite are not completely ber~ are not concerned about the situation blind to the plight of people coming along to they have created by the introduction of the 1957 legislation. Now there is to be a further them asking them to find Housing Commis­ relinquishing of control. sion homes for letting, they will give their honest views on this measure. The hon. member for Townsville South and the Leader of the Opposition said it was Mr. HOUSTON (Bulimba) (12.38 p.m.): very difficult to hear the Minister's introduc­ I completely support the arguments advanced tion. I do not think I am unintelligent, but during this debate by my Leader and Deputy at one stage of his speech I found it impos­ Leader. sible to understand his explanation of a formula that he somehow grabbed out of the Mr. Smith: What about the hon. member air for control of rental of homes built prior for Townsville South? to '1948. Mr. HOUSTON: He has taken care of Mr. Aikens: He only got the Bill from himself on many occasions, and I daresay the Real Estate Institute yesterday. he is able to do so on this occasion. I do not intend to couple him with the remarks Mr. LLOYD: That may be correct. On of the Leader of the Opposition or the the last occasion he introduced amending Deputy Leader. legislation he said he had ?iscusse~ _the Bill with the Property Owners Assocmtwn. When the Minister introduced the Bill on The Minister made that statement when he this occasion we found that he completely introduced the 1957 legislation. No doubt changed the' argument he used in 1957. we will find that the Property Owners' On that occasion he said the Government Association in Brisbane is again dictating were bringing down the legislation to encour­ the policy of the Government on rents a<>e people to build more homes to live in, control. It is most unfortunate that a a~d more homes for rental, and on this Rental Payers' Association has not been occasion he said that the main reason was formed amongst the working community in to dispense justice. This Bill will not affect Landlord and Tenant [20 OCTOBER] Acts Amendment Bill 905 the rental charged for any new premises. The increase could make a difference of 6s. Any flats or houses that are buil~ fr~m a week in their rent, in some cases 9s. and now on will not be affected by th1s B1ll. even 12s. So they will be hit and hit very The 1957 legislation took care of houses hard. and flats in that category. This legislation It is wrong for any Government to intro­ also does not affect houses or flats rented duce legislation that, while not greatly for the first time since 1 December, 1957. improving the position of landlords-because The present legislation is only to giv<: a the capital value of their property has already higher return to owners who rented premises increased-will certainly detrimentally affect prior to 1 December, 1957. In fact, we those unfortunate enough to have to live in are allowing this Parliament to be used for the benefit of those who have invested in rented homes. houses for rental purposes-to inflate their Mr. Davies: They have no option. investment value. If those same people had invested their money in shares or in any Mr. HOUSTON: That is so. Many of other way in 1949, 1950 or 1955-what­ them go along to the Housing Commission. ever the year-their shares would be worth I have plenty of cases in mind of people a certain amount and they would be getting who are living in sub-standard accommo­ their return from year to year. dation and paying high rents. If they go along to the Housing Commission and say, Mr. Houghton: Some of them would not "I want a Housing Commission home because be. the rent is too high where I am Jiving now," the Housing Commission officers just laugh Mr. HOUSTON: Those who invested at them and tell them they have a D wisely would. Their .shares would hold priority or some other low priority. It their investment value. They certainly would never gets any higher. It is no different not rise by the enormous amount the Bill for those living in unsuitable or condemned allows rents to go up. The Bill takes the houses. They go along to the Housing present value. It is a fact that in 1948- Commission and they are on a B priority, 1949 some first-class residences were built a very high priority, but they never get for £1,000 each in Brisbane and in other out of that priority. All the time there is parts of the State yet today they could someone else coming along with an eviction with truth be valued at £3,000. That means order. As I said once before in a debate a 300 per cent. improvement in the invest­ on the Housing Commission-and I do not ment. I would not mind if that investment want to transgress by canvassing that now­ improvement was not to the detriment of it is a fact that, while that system is in some other person. That is my main argu­ operation, this legislation is harder on those ment. In this case the increased return people. does not come about through increased labour on the part of the investor but rather Mr. Windsor: That points allocation must from the misfortune of the unfortunates who be fair, because your Government started have not enough capital behind them to it. enable them to build their own homes. They are the people who are being taken Mr. HOUSTON: There is an old say­ for a ride by the Bill. ing that times change. When the points priority system was introduced under legis­ It is true that we have in the community lation brought down by a former Labour many hundreds of families without the Government, the Commission was handling financial backing to purchase a home. many cases below top priority and every­ Unforunately many young people marry one knew that eventually he would be before they are financially secure. I do catered for. Under this Government, the not wish to enter into a debate on the rights Commission is not even handling those or wrongs of that. The ways of the world with top priority, let alone those on lower and the ways of human beings are rather priorities. If hon. members opposite donbt complex at times and I do not set myself this, Jet them apply for a home for any up to be a judge. However, the young constituent who has not been evicted. l people who marry today without any great assure them it is impossible to get a house financial security are not acting any differ­ under present conditions, because the Hous­ ently from us or those before us. They ing Commission is not building homes for marry and their families arrive-and every­ rental. It is the Government's responsi­ one will agree that natural increase in bility to ensure that people are fed and that population is highly desirable. But in present their health is cared for, but it is also their conditions they will never be able to own responsibility to see that the people are their own homes. Indeed the position will properly housed. worsen. The 15 per cent. increase will mean at least 3s. in the pound. These people If I had the time, I think I could prove have to battle from day to day to make quite clearly that home-building is not wise ends meet. I know hundreds of them. It is from the point of view of pure investment, no good saying they could do better. They that money can be used much more effec­ cannot. They are in permanent employment tively in other forms of investment. An and they receive the pay the court has investor who seeks a high return on his laid down for the type of work they do. money will not enter the housing field. The 906 Landlord and Tenant [ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment Bill only ones who will be assisted are those When the 1957 legislation was brought who do not require any assistance at this down a _booklet was published by the Minister stage. entitled, "Justice for Landlord and Tenant." He made one statement on the front page Hon. members opposite may doubt my that I thought was rather funny at the time. statement that many buildings of a low standard will earn advantages under this He said- legislation. There is nothing in the meas­ "The fact is that not only does the ure to say that the accommodation is to housing problem still exist, but the situa­ be first class. It just determines the value. tion today is worse than it was three years If today's inflated prices of land are taken ago." into account people will be paying rent for That was a statement made by the Minister the privilege of living on the ground, not in 1957. How true it is today! It for living in a shack. is more true today than it was in 1957. I hope that if the Minister decides Earlier this year, no less a person than to publish a similar booklet again he will His Grace Archbishop Duhig spoke on include the same words. It was also stated this subject, and the following report that the Government had a comprehensive appeared in "The Courier-Mail":- plan. The booklet referred to, "The building "The Government should investigate the of houses by the State with a view to home­ high rentals paid for indifferent accom­ ownership and rental." It was all included modation in Brisbane, Archbishop Duhig in the one paragraph. I am sure that the said at St. Stephen's Cathedral yesterday. word "rental" will not appear in any future "His Grace said he found that the rent publication of that booklet. It refers to-- for this accommodation was the prime "Encouragement of the building by pri- cause of the hardship being suffered by vate enterprise of houses and flats." poor families." In 1957 a total of 7,688 houses were built; How true that is, yet Government mem­ in 1958, 8,100; in 1959, 9,500; in 1960, 10,700. Of course, no-one denies there has bers do not take that into account. They been an increase in home-building, but the are interested only in increasing returns to population has increased considerably over those disgruntled supporters who have been the same period. Government members have put off side by other legislation they have had statements published in the Press recently introduced. This is an attempt to bring that the housing position in regard to land is them back on side. critical. Many newspaper headlines could be used to substantiate that. Although there has It is the duty of the Government to see been an increase in the number of houses that the people are provided with suitable built the cost has increased considerably. The accommodation. As the Leader of the average cost of a brick home has increased Opposition said, in many families, in an from £3,829 in 1958, to £3,900, with the endeavour to overcome the high rentals latest figures for January-June, 1961, being being charged today and to get accommo­ £4,497. With costs going up naturally values dation that they believe they and their are going up, including the value of old families are entitled to, wives are now homes. We will finish up, even allowing for going to work. I do not subscribe to the the interim adjustment, with wage-earners in idea that the great majority of women who Queensland having to pay a minimum of £5 go to work do so just for the sake of or £6 a week for rent. I say most emphatic­ being able to buy an extra hat, an extra ally that no person on ordinary wages can dress, or a fancy motor-car. I believe they afford such an increase. One of two go to work not for the pleasures that they things will happen: either there will be such can obtain with the extra money but to a demand for State rental homes that people obtain the necessaries of life. Many wives will get into them and refuse to pay the go to work to get extra money so that rent, or many mor~ womenfolk will have to they can educate their children, of course, go to work. The result, of course, will be but many others go to work so that they a deterioration in our youth problem. This can pay the high rentals now being charged. Bill has been contemplated for some time Under former Labour Governments people but no move was made by the Government who went into houses and flats knew that to introduce it until the basic wage had been their rent was £2 or £2 10s. a week, and tied up. on their income they were quite prepared to pay that amount. This Government The Government are to be condemned, first allowed an increase in rentals of 20 per of all for advocating the tying-up of the cent., or 4s. in the £1. Together with basic wage for 12 months and, secondly, for all the other increases brought about by doing so, knowing full well that they con­ the abolition of price control it has allowed templated a statutory increase in rents. Had the situation to deteriorate to the stage they been sincere in introducing this legisla­ where the wife has had to seek either part­ tion they would have allowed the basic wage time or full-time employment. As my to be increased in the normal way. Leader said earlier that leads to social Last but not least, I should like to support problems that I believe are not desired by my Leader in his C{)ndemnation of tl:te Gov­ this or any other Government. ernment's attitude towards the Opposition in Landlord and Tenant (20 OCTOBER] Acts Amendment Bill 907 introducing legislation. Hon. members of the problem they are emulating the ostrich who Opposition wish to assist the Government in buries his head in the sand and assumes all every way possible when legislation is intro­ is well around him. duced by drawing attention to any defects in it. It is our duty to study legislation According to the Minister the principles and to offer suggestions for its improvement. of the Bill include the principle of a transi­ Although we know that any opposition we tional procedure to allow landlords, pending may offer will be overcome by weight of determination of rent by the court, to numbers, we must do the best we can. We increase it by 15 per cent. I cannot see any can only do that when we have sufficient justice in that proposal. Such action would notice of its introduction. The Opposition amount to anticipation of the court's decision, s~ou~d _be informed several days before a and who is to say the court would not B1ll 1s mtroduced of what the Minister has reject the application for an increase? The in mind, particularly wlren, as far back as legislation will allow a landlord to predeter­ the 12th of this month, "The Courier-Mail" mine the rent of his property, and I fail to was able to publish virtually every detail see how such legislation can be linked given by the Minister today. Do the conscientiously with a department known as Government consider it more important to the Department of Justice. inform the Press than to tell hon. members Mr. Houston: If it takes more than 12 of this legislature? This is where the infor· months to get the determination, the tenant mation should be given and debated. will lose the excess rent he pays. Mr. Aikens: The Minister did not have the Mr. SHERRINGTON: That is correct. information himself then. It was given to "The Courier-Mail" by the Real Estate The Minister said the Bill was designed Institute. to remove existing anomalies. What anomalies? Is he referring to anomalies Mr. HOUSTON: I do not doubt that the as they apply to the landlords or to the ~~ea! Estate Institute framed the Bill. Accord­ tenants? From his outline of the Bill it is mg to the Press, the Minister gave them the clear that he claims the anomalies react information. I leave further comment to against the landlord. This Bill does not my colleagues who will voice their objections dispense justice to the tenants of these as strongly as I have endeavoured w do. homes. The legislation brought down by the Government in 1957 rewarded landlords in Mr. SHERRINGTON (Salisbury) (2.15 this State for their expenditure on housing. p.m.): The Leader of the Opposition They were liberally treated by the Govern­ ~dequately summed up the opinion of Opposi­ ment but the imposition of a further 15 per tiOn members and their utter contempt for cent. in rent is completely unjust and the legislation. The Government have iniquitous. Where is the justice in the Ministers with dual portfolios such as Labour principle that recovery of excess payments and Industry. The introduction of the Bill of rent is determined by a set period? I sugges~s. to ;ne the ~esirability of renaming bring to the Minister's attention that a land­ t~e Mm1ster s portfolio, to give him the dual lord can sue for arrears of rent extending t1tle of Minister for Injustice and Inequity. over any period. If the principle is estab­ lished that a tenant cannot sue beyond a The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. mem­ certain period for excessive rent, then the ber will not speak in those terms. He will same principle should apply to a landlord address himself to the Bill. to say that he may not sue for arrears of rental beyond a certain time. This is just Mr. SHERRINGTON: I am happy to do another instance of a one-sided principle in so, and I am expressing my attitude to the a one-sided Bill. Bill. The Minister's argument that relaxation of rent control for certain homes built after Following on the decontrol of rent intro­ a specified date has solved the housing prob­ duced by this Government, some people lem is completely fallacious. The earlier living in privately-owned homes have been legislation has resulted in the construction of forced to pay extraordinarily high rentals. palatial and luxurious apartments and blocks I know of several instances of families pay­ of flats such as Torbreck, but it certainly ing £7 1Os. to £8 a week for a home that is has not solved the housing problem for the 20 years old. I recall a case of a family average person in the community. that did not have priority for a rental Commission home and occupied a home on The Minister mentioned temporary housing a share basis. The rent was £7 1Os. a week at Victoria Park, but we have the same for the house. One of the tenants decided conditions today, the only difference being that domestic relations were somewhat that at the present time two and three strained with two families Jiving in the families Jive in the one house. same home and she decided to leave. The tenant who was left had to pay the rent of Mr. Hanlon: Out of sight, out of mind. £7 !Os. a week out of a wage of £14 7s. 6d. a week. One needs little imagination to Mr. SHERRINGTON: How true, as the envisage what happened. The tenant had Me_mJ;ler for Baroona so rightly interjects. In four children and she gradually fell into clmmmg that they have solved the housing arrears of rent and was evicted from the 908 Landlord and Tenant [ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment Bill

home. When she was evicted she automati­ th~ incoming t~nant on vacation by an out­ cally forfeited any right she may have had gomg tenant Is 13s. a week. I cannot to a Housing Commission home because in imagine that the Queensland Housing Com­ no circumstances will the Commission enter­ mis-sion will be satisfied with the present tain applications from tenants evicted for rentals received from State rental homes arrears of rent. When I made representations compared with the rich rewards to be reaped to the Housing Commission, I was amazed by the private landlords so I challenge the to be told quite frankly that that was the Minister to deny that this is the first move policy-the circumstances of the arrears are towards an overall increase in the economic not considered. Where can these people go rent of Housing Commission homes in who are displaced through no fault of their Queemland. own? They become like a nomadic tribe, Mr. Duggan: What is sauce for the goose and wander from flat to flat getting into will be sauce for the gander. arrears each time and forced to seek alterna­ tive accommodation because they are not Mr. SHERRINGTON: How very true! On entitled to a Housing Commission home. that ground alone I could not but be alarmed We must prevent such happenings for there at the introduction of legislation of this is no doubt that with the present economic type. Eighty per cent. of the homes in circumstances there will be an ever-increas­ my electorate are Housing Commission ing demand for rental Commission homes. homes, in the main occupied by ordinary The hon. member for Bulimba pointed out working people who are called on to pay that the State should be responsible for hous­ exo1 bitant fan:s to travel from Inala, ing its people just as it is responsible for pro­ Cooper's Plains or Acacia Ridge to their viding education and health facilities. This places of employment in the city. I could legislation gives the green light to landlords to not but be alarmed at the implication·> in charge exorbitant rentals. If tenants are the measure because it will eventually lead evicted because they cannot pay the rent to the re-assessment and raising of the they are debarred from obtaining a Housing economic rents of Queensland Housing Com­ Commission home. Where can they go mission homes. On that score alone, I from there? wholeheartedly support the opposition ·so adequately expressed by my leader and The Treasurer said that he did not agree express my disgust at the introduction of with a resurgence of State landlordism but legislation such as this. I say we must return to State landlordism because. under the agreements initiated by Mr. HANLON (Baroona) (2.31 p.m.): The the Chifiey Government, people were able Minister has advanced very few arguments in to obtain homes to rear their children in favour of the legislation. No matter what decency a( an economic rate calculated arguments he advances in favour of it in his on one-fifth of their income. The Bill i·s reply, one thing stands out as the hon. mem­ a complete negation of that principle. Rents ber for Redcliffe would stand out in a joint will be allowed to climb higher and higher. meeting of the Government parties-that the I sound a note of warning. The Govern­ Minister could not have chosen a worse time ment have shown that they are prepared to to introduce a measure of this type, having sacrifice the interests of the ordinary people regard to the personal distress that will result and, whether it be in the provision of homes in many instances. I know that the Minister or in the provision of goods and services, will argue that he looks at these matters they will protect with one-sided legislation broadly, but he must know of individual not the ordinary people but those who seek cases in which distress will result. At present to grow rich quickly. As long as that there are over 16,000 unemployed, many of trend continue-s we will not have a stabilised whom are in my electorate and other metro­ economy in the State. politan electorates and are known to me. With the advent of Christmas, that number I challenge the Minister to d\!nY that the will be increased by children leaving school Bill is the first shot being fired in a cam­ and seasonal workers being laid off, and paign to increase the rentals of Queensland many of these people whose income will be Housing Commission homes. There can be reduced from £18, £16, or £14 a week, or no doubt about it. The Treasurer has whatever it may be, to the social service clearly indicated his attitude. In his hunger payment of about £6 a week will be faced for additional money he will delve into with an increase in rent of 10s., 15s., or £1 any pocket for more funds. I cannot a week under this legislation. As I said, imagine that the Queensland Housing whatever arguments the Minister may advance Commission will be satisfied with the economic rents it receives today while in support of the legislation, I think the private landlords are allowed to charge timing of its introduction is very inopportune ever-increasing rents. I am sure the Bill when one considers the many people who will was designed to bring into the open the have to attempt to carry on on the meagre present snide practice of the Queensland benefits they receive from the Commonwealth Housing Commission since this Government's Department of Social Services. election to office of raising the economic The Minister claims that the orderly relax­ ren:t of a house whenever the occupier ation of rent controls-he uses a similar relinquishes possession. The average rental phrase in relation to prices-under this increase of Housing Commission homes to Government since 1957 has resulted in a Landlord and Tenant [20 OCTOBER] Acts Amendment Bill 909 spate of new building that has already pro­ Mr. HANLON: I am glad to know that duced a record number of houses and apart­ the hon. member for Ithaca recognises that ments each year and helped not only to meet it is selfish to build a second house while the State's requirements for housing the others are waiting for a first. It was not people who marry each year but also to necessary for the hon. member for Ithaca overtake the backlag. I agree with the to take a point of order. I merely picked Minister that to a degree there has been a on him because I thought it might wake him spate of building, particularly of flat and up if I mentioned his name. It certainly did. apartment buildings, since the Government Mr. WINDSOR: I rise to a point of order. took office in 1957. If one goes to "Torbreck" I never go to sleep in the Chamber. in Brisbane or "Kinkabool" and other luxury Mr. HANLON: It is very easy to draw up apartments on the South Coast, one finds not statistics to show an increase in the number only that they have been built but that even of houses built. But if many of them are the very wealthy cannot afford to tenant them only to be used part-time as a second house or buy them. There is a call for funds of or to be let to tourists, although it might any description for buildings of this type, and be good from the point of view of the tourist large sums of money have been spent on trade, it does not reflect any relief for the their erection. It is a tragedy that when people seeking houses to live in. As I inter­ 6,000 people are lined up at the Housing jected when the Minister was introducing the Commission· waiting for rental homes we Bill, the Government are being quite illogical should be able to go out and gaze on empty in their approach on this occasion. In 19 57, luxury apartments to the value of £4,000, in one of their initial approaches to the prob­ £5,000, or £6,000 in Brisbane and on the lem, they decontrolled a number of houses. South Coast. In fairness to the hon. member Not only new houses constructed after for South Coast, I should say that the December, 1957, but any house 10 years or provision of these apartments and flats is 100 years old that had not been tenanted all right for tourists, and it would not be so for three years before December, 1957, bad if they were tenanted. But the Govern­ could be let after the 1957 amendment, with­ ment have produced a policy of not catering out any control on it at all. Having intro­ for the people who require houses, but encour­ duced that amendment in 1957 the Minister aging building flats and apartments that have now brings in legislation to maintain what not been accepted by the people for whom he says is going to be a form of control on they allegedly have been built. In other another group of houses, by fixing the rent words, people who would be interested in on the basis of present-day value less· 20 per buildings of this type should not, in our opin­ cent. If it is necessary to maintain that form ion, have priority over people who are living of control-if it could be called control­ 15 or 16 in a house or crammed into one­ why is it not equally necessary to include bedroom or two-bedroom flats with two or every house he released from control in 1957? three children. Hundreds of thousands If he seriously considers that under today's of pounds, in some cases millions of conditions he is obliged to retain the form of pounds, have been devoted to the build­ control he envisages on houses tenanted ing and furnishing of these luxury flats before 1957, why should he not logically and apartments over a period of years, maintain the same control on the houses and half of them are still empty. They cannot alongside? Under the Government's present sell them; they cannot let them. What is the approach we will have the ridiculous position use of the Minister's telling us that his Govern­ of A living in a house controlled under the ment's policy has assisted in overcoming the Act and B living in a house not controlled housing shortage when these premises are under the Act. The controlled house could vacant? When the Treasurer assumed office his have been built comparatively recently, and argument was that he did not care who built the decontrolled house, possibly the worst the houses or what sort of houses they were, case of overcharging of rent, may be 100 as long as the result was more houses and years old and falling apart. There may be more apartments. He said that if somebody no control on that house because it was not shifted out of a house at Ascot into an tenanted for three years before 19 57. The apartment at "Torbreck" somebody else would landlord has the opportunity to get the maxi­ shift into the Ascot house. I do not care mum rent from people who are obliged to how many apartments are built as long as accept accommodation there because, as has people requiring houses get first priority. I been pointed out by the hon. members for object to apartments being built as a first Salisbury and Bulimba, the Queensland Hous­ priority when the needs of the person who ing Commission are not able to offer rental requires help are not met. It is even worse accommodation. I think also that the Minister when the apartments are left untenanted. I has not given us the information we are offer that as an answer to the claim that entitled to have on a measure of this kind. the Government have provided so many new The Deputy Leader of the Opposition raised houses. The figures quoted include second the point of what effect this measure will houses for some, people like the hoil. mem­ have on the wages bill of the Government, ber for Ithaca who might build a second quite apart from its effect on the wages bill house. Good luck to him if he can! of private enterprise. It was pointed out that the cost of living will in future be assessed Mr. WINDSOR: I rise to a point of order. by the court on the new consumer index I have not got a second house. which will not reflect increases in rent to the 910 Landlord and Tenant [ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment Bill

same degree as the "C" Series Index had it him. How much more difficult will it be been maintained. The ordinary citizens of for the unfortunate tenant to understand why this State are on the wrong end of the stick his rent is to be increased? He will not in this regard. know the avenues open to him to get justice When rents were substantially con­ in the matter. trolled the "C" Series Index was used The Minister is confused, as he was on the and no regard was taken at all of subject of liquor. He is not quite sure what increases in the capital value of houses, it is all about. As I said on another occa­ of their market value or of the cost of sion when he introduced a measure of this building a house. That position obtained type, he is like the boy who for the first from the war until a few years ago when time has to swim a length of the baths, and the cost of building, if it has not come is told to jump in at the shallow end and down. has certainly not risen to the extent swim to the deep end. The Minister thinks that it did between 1939 and 1955. As I that as long as he can get out of the pool say, the Index at that time ignored he will be all right. It does not matter mcreases in capital values of houses, ignored to him what he tells the Committee. He mcreases in the cost of building them, but has adopted that attitude because in his now. with the accent swinging, through this opinion it is the safest one for him. We Government's policy, to increased rents, are certainly justified, on the grounds of thev switch from the "C" Series Index to personal distress, in opposing the Bill, but the' Consume~; Index which, had it been we are also justified in opposing it because operating since 1939, would have taken of the lack of information from the Minister. account of those things but which does not take account so much of rent increases as Mr. RAMSDEN (Merthyr) (2.46 p.m.): I the "C" Series Index did. support the Bill. It has received the approval of the Government parties. I shall I think we are entitled to know, firstly, speak briefly because I do not want to delay whether these increases in rents will be fairly the passage of it. I support the M!nist.er. reflected in the wages of the workers. The It is not necessary for anyone on th1s stde Treasurer told us when the Landlord and of the Chamber to come to his defence. Tenant Acts were originally amended that He is very able and quite capable of defend­ the Government were giving justice to the ing himself. He does not need any assist­ people who had been deprived of higher ance from back benchers and my purpose wages because of artificial rent control. today is not to reply to the points of hon. Mr. Duggan: The estimated cost in New members opposite. If they take heed of South Wales is £3,500,000. him, they will get the complete answer to their criticism. I rise merely because of Mr. HANLON: The Leader of the charges made against back-benchers that we Opposition points out that in New South sit quiet and say nothing when the Govern­ Wales the estimated cost was £3,500,000. ment introduces a Bill because we are not The Minister should not introduce a Bill in sympathy with it or with the Minister like this with a brief explanation of it and or that we are not prepared to back him not tell us what is will cost the State or up. That is an obvious untruth. I do not whether the householder will be compen­ know what happened in the Caucus meetings sated for any increase in rents. If the of the Labour Party, but legislation intro­ Minister is not able to tell us because duced by the Government has the approval it is not his responsibility, he should have the of the joint Government parties before its Treasurer here to tell us. presentation. If it is to cost £3,000,000 or £4,000,000 Mr. Hanlon: You have seen the Bill, have the Treasurer should be here to tell us you? exactly what it will cost. When the Labour Party advocated for Mr. RAMSDEN: No, but I am aware of three weeks' annual leave there were howls its principles. not only from the Government, but also I should like to comment very briefly from the Q.L.P. about its exorbitant cost. on the wail of despair of the Leader of the I recall the famous stand by the Q.L.P. Opposition because the Government do as about the cost of three weeks' leave. They their predecessors did before them, by giv­ boasted of their attitude. ing what he is pleased to call insufficient If rent is to be decontrolled as a matter notice of the proposed time of introduction of Government policy was not three weeks' of a Bill. leave also Government policy when the Labour Party occupied the Treasury benches? Mr. Davies: His protest was quite justi­ We are entitled to know what it will cost. fied, too. If the Minister cannot tell us, he should Mr. RAMSDEN: I am pleased to hear have the Treasurer here to tell us. the hon. member's objection. I ask why The Minister's attitude is to give a brief the Leader of the Opposition did not com­ explanation of the Bill, in a very confused plain about the practice initiated by the fashion that was very difficult to follow. The Labour Government and ruthlessly pursued Leader of the Opposition has often pointed by them. I cannot understand his reason. out how difficult it is to follow the Minister He probably complains now because he is even when one listens very carefully to on the colder side of the Chamber. Landlord and Tenant (20 OCTOBER] Acts Amendment Bill 911

The hon. member for Townsville South Mr. Houston: How well do they advertise? always adopts the exaggerated viewpoint, but on this occasion he bitterly attacked Mr. RAMSDEN: If the hon. member will the Leader of the Opposition for decrying wait just a moment I will tell him. a practice condoned by the Leader of the They pay interest on deposits, 4 per cent. Opposition when he was on the Government for investments up to £500, and when the benches. £500 is exceeded they pay bank interest on The Leader of the Opposition referred the balance of the money for a period not to inordinate rentals of £5 a week for homes. exceeding seven years. He subscribes to the theory that there should I refer to my own electorate again. It is be a home available for anyone who goes remarkable the number of people I met when to the Housing Commission with £250 in I was concerned with the trust fund, and since his pocket and says, "I want a home," and I have been in Parliament, who have not put that rental homes should be available for first tlrings first. That is the bitter truth we those in less fortunate financial circumstances have to face. If I prefer to own a motor-car, than the man with £250. a television set, or a washing machine, before Mr. Sberrington: That is true. J own a home, whose fault is that? If I want to own one of those things before I Mr. RAMSDEN: I am not going to argue own a home, surely I cannot blame the that point. The whole approach of the Government. In the last four years, starting Leader of the Opposition to the problem from 30 June, 1958, credits to the Home shows he is not in favour of giving people Builders' Deposit Trust Fund were as any incentive to save to own their own follows:- home. Year Amount 30 June, 1958 £7,223 Mr. Houston: How can they save on the basic wage? 30 June, 1959 £4,690 30 June, 1960 £3,158 Mr. RAMSDEN: The hon. member for 30 June, 1961 £5,121 Bulimba is most vociferous in his interjections For the information of hon. members and wants to know how they can save on opposite 48 people are contributing to that the basic wage. The electorate of Merthyr fund now which will help them to obtain has probably a higher concentration of flats their own home. than any other metropolitan area. An Opposition Member: What is the aver­ Mr. Duggan: They may not thank you for age amount deposited? your speecl1 today. Mr. RAMSDEN: When the Leader of the Mr. RAMSDEN: They may not thank me Opposition was speaking the other day during for my speech? The people of Merthyr know another debate he gave a few figures Jtnd I me and know that what I say is right, and asked him the total and I got the very rude the truth. The same interjection cam_e from answer, "You can add up." Might I suggest the Leader of the Opposition or one of his the same thing to the interjector now. I supporters on the last occasion that this have given the figures and the hon. member subject was under discussion, and the only can surely work it out arithmetically. reaction from the electors of Mertlzyr came in the form of two letters, one from a land­ Mr. Houston: That kills the whole of lord protesting that we had not gone far your case, you know. enough, and one from a tenant complaining Mr. RAMSDEN: It does not kill any we had gone too {sir. of my case. With your permission, Mr. Taylor, I will Mr. Houston: You are not very well develop that theme. I have been asked how briefed. on earth a man on the basic wage, or slightly above it, can do anything about getting his Mr. RAMSDEN: In spite of what hon. own home. In the first place, I ask how does members opposite say about the previous the man with £250 get it in the first place? amendment of the Landlord and Tenant What makes him any different from the man Act, it did, as the Minister said, give a without it? For many years the State Gov­ measure of relief and justice. It meant ernment have had a self-help scheme. The that people with cash who were able to Government cannot take credit for it because invest in building for tenants, did so. Prior it has been in existence for many years past. to that, if somebody had enough capital It is the Home Builders Deposit Trust Fund. to build a house he would not build; he For eight and a half years whilst I was would rather put it into some form of Assistant Secretary to the Services Canteens' Government-secured loan because there at Trust Fund I used to send people to least he received a moderate return on his the Queensland Housing Commission investment. Following the last amendment to take advantage of this opportunity of the Landlord and Tenant Act the con­ presented for home ownership. The Queens­ struction of new flats and new houses went land Housing Commission had a scheme to ahead apace and more flats and home units assist would-be home-owners which pays were available. I say, and I challenge interest on deposits like a savings bank. anyone to deny the truth of it, that for 912 Landlord and Tenant [ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment Bill the first time in New Farm since I have while the hon. member for Townsville been there-and it has one of the heaviest South was speaking earlier today. Hon. concentrations of flat-dwellers in the city­ members will recall the story he told about there are signs up reading, "Flats to let", the widow who had to go, on his advice, "Home units for sale". Let me develop to the Clerk of Petty Sessions in Towns­ that argument. vine for, he said, protection. Mr. Mann: How can the workers buy Mr. Aikens: That will be the end of him as the home-units, you idiot? Why don't you far as promotion is concerned. talk sense? Mr. RAMSDEN: The hon. member is The CHAIRMAN: Order! repeating his defamation now. He went on Mr. RAMSDEN: Let me enlighten the to say, "Now the Minister knows what he has hon. member for Brisbane, who will shortly done, that will be the end of promotion for he faced with exactly the same problem in the C.P.S." his own beloved Spring Hill. Let me tell Mr. Aikens: He will be transferred to him that a landlord or a land investor Birdsville as a junior clerk. does not build a house or flats or a home unit for the sheer joy of seeing his money Mr. RAMSDEN: I think that is a gross tied up indefinitely for no return. abuse of Parliamentary privilege, which is given to members of this Chamber so that Mr. Honston: What return do you think they can reveal injustices outside it, not to he should get? give people of the type of the hon. member Mr. RAMSDEN: The hon. member can for Townsville South the right to say things make his own speech in his own time. of that sort. Apparently the hon. member for Brisbane Mr. Aikens: Do you think I should say cannot take it; he is leaving the Chamber. only what you think I should say? But what the landlord does is invest his money. He builds his flats or his home Mr. RAMSDEN: No. On every occasion unit expecting very shortly to get some that the hon. member for Townsville South return on his investment. The return he rises to his feet when the Minister for Justice gets is dependent on the supply. I know is involved, he vomits forth his venomous that when flats were at a premium in New spleen from a warped and twisted mind Farm, when people walked the length and tortured by his inordinate and obsessive breadth of the suburb looking for a flat hatred of the Minister. Whenever he speaks but could not get one, rents were higher 011 any matter concerning the Minister and than they are now when there are vacant his department, his normally perceptive flats and landlords are forced to reduce mental processes are prevented from taking rents because of the adequate supply. their normal sequence. I had hoped that I am very glad the hon. member for hon. members on both sides of the Chamber. Townsville South is back in the Chamber whatever their political differences, would because I sincerely regret the level of debate feel with me a deep disgust for the type of set by him. attack made by the hon. member for Towns­ ville South on the Minister for Justice today Mr. Aikens: It goes down all right at and when he introduced the Liquor Acts the Regent. Amendment Bill and also the type of attack Mr. RAMSDEN: That is probably the he made on the Judges. only place where it would go down. The I should like to say in conclusion that if hon. member for Townsville South so hates the hon. member for Townsville South were the Minister for Justice, a man highly one-tenth the man the Minister is, this respected in this Assembly and outside, a Chamber would be the richer for his presence. man of honesty and integrity, that every I deprecate this line of attack to discredit not time the Minister rises to speak in the only the legislation but the Minister. Having Chamber he is defamed and insulted by said that, I shall resume my seat. the hon. member for Townsville South. Mr. HART (Mt. Gravatt) (3.2 p.m.): I Opposition Members interjected. should like first to agree completely with the Mr. RAMSDEN: I am being serious. If concluding remarks of the hon. member for hon. members opposite will sink to the Merthyr in vindicating the conduct in this depths of standing by while a decent man Chamber of an honourable man. I think it is defamed it may be all right with them. is a very bad thing for hon. members to It is not all right with me. I say this hon. abuse their privilege, because privileges that member is particularly vicious in his opposi­ are abused are often lost. It behoves every tion not to the legislation as such but to member of this Chamber to see that other the Minister for Justice himself. members do not abuse their privileges. Mr. Aikens: Who wrote this out? Mr. AIKENS: I rise to a point of order. I am rather amused by the exhibition of the Mr. RAMSDEN: I wrote it myself. Let hon. member for Merthyr and the hon. me remind the Committee of an incident member for Mt. Gravatt, who are attacking Landlord and Tenant [20 OCTOBER] Acts Amendment Bill 913 me because of remarks that I made about the community because if we give you any Minister for Justice and who are now abusing relief at all the costs of government will me in the foulest possible terms. I wish they go up. Therefore we will give you no would apply their own style of criticism to relief whatsoever." Of my own knowledge themselves. I know what the position was. I know what the position was in my own electorate. The CHAIRMAN: Order! When the present Government assumed office they knew that something had to be done Mr. AIKENS: As a matter of fact, I think that his remarks-- about it. The first legislation to give land­ lords a measure of relief was introduced in The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. mem­ 1957. It said, "You may charge rents on ber is not making a speech. the 1948 basis. You can let houses built in the future without the burden of rent Mr. HART: Much as I prefer to ignore the control." We have had positive admissions hon. member who has just interrupted, I felt from the hon. members for Bulimba and obliged to support the hon. member for Baroona that that legislation has resulted in Merthyr in his remarks. a great increase in the number of houses and flats built in the State. The only way Dealing with the Bill, I believe that many they have attempted to refute that has been hon. members opposite have spoken in this by saying that many of them have been debate with their tongues in their cheeks. built at the seaside and that no-one can They think that this is a very good band­ afford to occupy them. When I asked the wagon to get on because whatever they say hon. member for Baroona the obvious in opposing the Bill will get them votes. question whether they were going to remain unoccupied he would not answer me. The Mr. Bromley: What do you say? obvious answer is that they will ultimately be let and occupied. The desire of the Mr. HART: I say that the primary duty of Minister for Housing will · be achieved. hon. members is to introduce legislation that There will be more houses until the stage is just and in the interests of the State. Let is reached where the supply exceeds the us consider the position of landlords and demand, when rentals must come down. tenants and the housing position that existed when the Government came into office. The hon. member for Salisbury asked me whether I believed in private home owner­ Hon. members opposite asked a metro­ ship. I believe in it implicitly. Because I politan member of the Government parties to do I have been instrumental in the forming give his own experience in regard to the of a group of housing societies. Through Landlord and Tenant Act. When I first that channel we have poured hundreds of was elected to Parliament I had the largest thousands of pounds into the community, electorate in Queensland numerically, and I money that otherwise would not have been think the largest electorate ever represented available. A huge amount of money is going by any hon. member in Queensland. It out, and there will be a great deal more. contained seven Housing Commission areas, The money is just starting to flow through. and in the main I think it could be described I was able to give some practical help in as a working-class electorate. Every morning that direction. We are helping to increase my heart was nearly broken at the number the number of houses in Queensland. We of women, many of them with young are helping to do that because we wish to children, who came asking whether I could enable both young and old people in this help them get a house. That state of affairs State to own their own homes. That is a was brought about by the legislation of the vital matter. Labour Government. Because of their legis­ Opposition Members interjected. lation no-one would build a house for rental purposes. They refused to introduce the The CHAIRMAN: Order! It must be magnificent legislation that has since been perfectly obvious to the hon. members for used by the Queensland Housing Com­ Bulimba and Salisbury that the hon. member mission. They refused to introduce the for Mt. Gravatt is ignoring their interjections co-operative housing societies legislation. In and making his speech. To persist in yelling the south millions of pounds had been the same question over and over again will poured into housing through this field but get them nowhere. No hon. member is the Labour Government would not introduce obliged to take any notice of interjections. enabling legislation in Queensland. Mr. Hilton was the sinner who would not intro­ Mr. HART: The result of the Govern­ duce it. I do not know their reasons; ment's housing legislation has been an maybe they did not understand it. People increase in the number of houses. When will not build houses for rental if it is we came to office the then Labour Govern­ not economic. The previous government ment had many people living in sub-standard made it uneconomical to build houses for accommodation in various parks. Legislation letting. Out of all the people in the com­ introduced by the Government has since munity to legislate against they chose the greatly improved the housing position but landlords. By their sectional legislation unfortunately we do not get a balanced point they legislated against the landlords saying, of view from the Opposition. They do not "You should bear the whole burden of the work out whether legislation is good or 914 Landlord and Tet1at1t [ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment Bill bad; they simply get up and blindly abuse increasing their rents suddenly and letting all landlords because they think it is good them struggle along as best they can. What for them politically. we should do is what the Minister is doing, Because of our attitude many houses and that is, recognise that they are in a privileged fiats have been built and will continue to position and give them the benefit of the 20 be built. This legislation will not affect per cent. reduction. people living in their own homes, the great Mr. Aikens: Spoken like a true landlord. majority of the people in this State; it does You are one of the biggest landlords in not affect people whose homes were built Brisbane and one of the most unscrupulous. since 1957 b!!t it does affect a minority of the population who owned houses and let Mr. HART: I ask that that remark be them before 1957, and are still letting them. withdrawn. Those people are still bearing the burden. Mr. Aikens: I said it. One hon. member opposite said he had five or six insurance policies. I do not The CHAIRMAN: What was the remark? know how the hon. member will take it if I suggest that he and his colleagues in Mr. HART: He said I was one of the most this Chamber surrender half of their insur­ unscrupulous landlords in Brisbane. ance policies to provide houses for people who have not got them. I should imagine The CHAIRMAN: Did the hon. member their cries would go to high heaven. The for Townsville South refer to the hon. mem­ Labour Party, in their policy, have chosen ber for Mt. Gravatt as one of the most to put the whole burden on those landlords unscrupulous landlords in Brisbane? who still own houses built prior to 1957. Mr. Aikens: To put the record right I said Is that fair? he was one of the biggest landlords in Bris­ Hon. members opposite have referred to bane and one of the most unscrupulous. the hardship on people on the basic wage and those living in rented houses. It is a The CHAIRMAN: That is a reflection on definite hardship. I know many of those the character and integrity of the hon. mem­ people and I agree that it is a hardship. ber for Mt. Gravatt and I ask the hon. mem­ On the other hand, this Bill, which is a ber for Townsville South to withdraw it. just one, also recognises a hardship but it has not said, "We will throw these basic­ Mr. Aikens: Very well, I withdraw it. wage earners in rented houses on the scrap heap by making them pay the full rent." Mr. HART: The hon. member for Salis­ It asks them only to pay the rent on a basis bury said that the 1957 legislation had gone of the house value being fixed at 20 per cent. far enough. I think the hon. member for less _than present values which is just to both Bulimba was also inclined to the same view. parties. He said that by the 1957 legislation the Government provided for further building, The hon. member for Carnarvon spoke and there is therefore no need to go further. about capital gains made by some people. That is an admission that the Labour Govern­ ~ su~gest that: under Labour legislation as ment were wrong in maintaining their previ­ 1t existed, capital losses were being brought ous legislation. That does not remove the about. It is well known that many people to obligation on the Government to go further provide for their old age, bought houses ;s a and give justice to landlords who have not form of investment. People do not do that been allowed to increase rents at all. these days and it is bad for the community They did not do it because of the way they Mr. Sherrington: Why are you defending were treated by the Labour Government. the private landlord? You just said you Instead of putting their money into houses believed in home ownership. they invested it and got 7, 9 and 10 per cent: Houses were not a good investment. But Mr. HART: I believe above all that the ~any people in former times put their money people of this State should be housed. That mto houses, and they still have the houses. is our primary duty. The Government Th«;>se investments were their nest egg for believe that as many people as possible should their old age. Assume it cost £500 to build own their own homes, but for some people a house in those days. The same house it is not convenient to own a home. Some and property would now be worth £3 000 people do not have the money to buy a home. and, if the owners could get an econ;mic We have a responsibility to those people also, rent for it, it would be of great assistance, but we are not going to get homes for them but when the Labour Government were by being unjust to landlords. in office rents were pegged to 1942 values, I was asked if I thought young people and the rent for the house would be £2 a could get together sufficient money to build week. They simply could not exist on that a house. I am in a position to give first­ return. I ask hon. members opposite if that class evidence on that matter. A great num­ is their idea of justice. ber of young people have sufficient money Labour legislation did not provide for to get a home. They come to our housing iustice. What we need is a balance. We societies and place before us their financial must not throw people to the wolves by position. We require them to do that. I must Landlord and Tenant [20 OCTOBER] Acts Amendment Bill 915 say I am full of admiration for the sacrifices it just grieves me that we have in this made by many of them and the way in House a man with the capacity and attain­ which they have saved the money to get a ments of the hon. member for Townsville home. I know of my own knowledge that South who puts his capacity and attainments many young people, if they are careful and to such poor use. In my heart, I know­ watch what they are doing, can get together as I am sure the hon. member for Townsville sufficient money. I recognise also that there South knows-that he has not even the is the other class. I recognise also slightest reason for thinking that the hon. that we should not say to people, "As you member for Mt. Gravatt is an unscrupulous have not saved money or you have not done landlord. I know, as every hon. member the things you should have done when you in the House knows, that when any such were young, you cannot get a home now interjections are made from time to time that you are older, have a family and have they damage the reputation of hon. members pressing burdens." We do not say to these of the Chamber, sometimes on this side, people, "You are not entitled to have a and sometimes on that side, and sometimes house." We still oblige them and the Hous­ members of the judiciary, but there is ing Commission provides them with houses. not-- We also provide houses if we -encourage landlords to build houses in the community. Mr. AIKENS: I rise to a point of order. The hon. member for Baroona said that there No man in this Chamber over the years has are houses and flats that cannot be let. Do been more abused and vilified than I. 1 hon. members opposite think they will object to the Minister for Justice presuming remain unlet? Ordinary economic laws will to tell the House what I know and what Teduce the price of houses in Brisbane and I think. How does he know what I believe the rental charged. and what I think? I ask you, Mr. Taylor to ask the Minister for Justice to state th~ I congratulate the Minister on the way facts. he has handled this measure, although the Leader of the Opposition would suggest that The CHAIRMAN: Order! The Minister we would kill the goose that lays the golden has made no accusation against the character egg. and integrity of the hon. member. Hon. A. W. MUNRO (Toowong-Minister Mr. MUNRO: You are quite right, Mr. for Justice) (3.21 p.m.) in reply: When Taylor. I have not. one has lived some 40, 50 or 60 years one becomes very tolerant, and for that reason I am referring to a number of similar I am very happy that we have had such a incidents in recent times. No hon. member spirited debate. We have had many varied has t~e right to shelter behind the privilege opinions expressed in the Chamber. After of thts Chamber and say he believes some­ one or two introductory remarks I propose thing when in his heart not only does he to confine myself to objective consideration not believe it, but he has no reason for of what I regard as the main principles coming to such a belief. If I know the enunciated in opposition to the Bill. Before f~cts . and I ~ow there is nothing to justify doing so, there are one or two brief remarks him m fo:mmg that belief, then I say he is I wish to make by way of comparison of false to hts trust. the speakers, whom I have classified in three categories. My preliminary remarks about Now I come to the second category of the first category are prompted only because speeches. of the most unfair and unjust accusations that the hon. member for Townsville South Mr. Lloyd: If you were quite sincere in levelled at the hon. member for Mt. Gravatt your argument about the hon. member you while he was speaking. would oppose him at every election. We do, you know. It is a pity the Liberal Party does Mr. Aikens: How do you know they were not put up a candidate to oppose him. unfair and unjust? Mr. MUNRO: It is a little apart from the The CHAIRMAN: Order! point but I think there might be a great deal Mr. Aikens: How do you know that? in what the Deputy Leader of the Opposition Since when have you been your brother's has said. keeper? Just stick to the matter of dealing I do not want to take up too much time with the drunken killers. They are your on the second category, broadly, speeches meat. from the Opposition side. I have listened The CHAIRMAN: Order! If the hon. carefully to every word and generally hon. member for Townsville South continues to members opposite have been sincere and interrupt I will have to ask him to retire honest in presenting the case as they see it: from the Chamber. but it is noticeable that every one of them pleaded a case for the tenants and not one Mr. MUNRO: I make my remarks not word for the landlords. It might be a little because of any feeling of animosity for the uncharitable to suggest that that style of hon. member for Townsville South, because attack could be influenced by the fact that in I have none for him. As I have said before, each of their electorates there are more 916 Landlord and Tenant [ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment Bill tenants than landlords and obviously more 1960, No. 21. It shows that as from 2 August, votes. I do not suggest for one moment that 1948, which is just one month later, that is the main reason for that line of the State basic wage for males in Queens­ attack. I think it is possible that we all see land was £5 17 s. a week. The latest figure things according to the experience we have shown in the same publication as from gained in the world, and those hon. members 1 August, 1960, is £13 13s. a week. Yet who have spoken have seen something of the hon. members opposite are arguing that they hardships to tenants and, as I say, quite are satisfied to leave rentals fixed on a basis honestly and sincerely they have pleaded their comparable with a basic wage of £5 17s. as cause. I do not say one word in criticism of at 2 August, 1948, at a time subsequent to that although objectively I will deal with the 1 August, 1960, when the State basic wage arguments that have been put forward. is higher than £13 13s. The third category comprised only two Mr. Houston: Why did you take 1948 speeches, that of the hon. member for when the amendment was made in 1957? Merthyr and that of the hon. member for Why did you not take 1952 or some other Mt. Gravatt. Apart from some introductory year? remarks, which might not have been com­ pletely relevant to the Bill but which were Mr. MUNRO: We took 1948 four years completely justified by recent happenings in ago because we hoped to do something to the Chamber, in each case there was an lessen the injustice. We wanted to do it in endeavour to weigh objectively the merits of gradual steps, and we are now taking steps the case from the points of view of the that are consistent with our action four years respective rights and interests of landlord and ago to further lessen the injustice, or, as I tenants. It is a pity that we do not have more said at that time, to give some measure of often in the Chamber that objective approach justice to landlords. to problems of this kind. Mr. Dugg:m: Is this the final phase, or As I indicated, I have listened carefully to merely the second phase? all the speeches. Obviously, I have not enough time to comment on anything like all the Mr. MUNRO: This is not the final phase. points that have been put forward but it Of course it is not. I have made it clear that these arbitrary controls on landlords are seemed to me that there were four main criticisms directed against the Bill. the product of wartime conditions. If the former Government had been worth their salt The first was that, in the interests of we should have got away from that artificial tenants, it is desirable that rentals be as low state of affairs many years ago. as possible and therefore any action to permit Mr. Houston: When do you intend to take any increases in rentals is wrong. Taking the first part of the proposition, let me say that the next step? that is completely right; I agree with it. If we Mr. MUNRO: I am not in a position to view the matter from the point of view of the say that. It may be many years hence, because tenants, every one of us would like to see the Government sees both sides of the ques­ housing provided at as low a cost to them as tion. Let me say again what I said in could reasonably be expected. The second part 1957-that the whole burden of rent has of the proposition is not merely wrong but is. been borne by a very few people. I said- on analysis, completely absurd. It is absurd to say that no action should be taken at any "Upon the shoulders of one section of people in the community there has been time to permit increases in rentals, and I will a financial burden which cannot be justi­ make that quite clear as I go along. That fied on any rational, economic or moral argument completely overlooks the fact that v.e are in a world of changing money values ground." and the substance of the argument put up by Mr. Houston: That is the tenants. every Opposition speaker was to the general effect that, if rentals at present are based on Mr. MUNRO: I am referring to the people capital values as at 1 July, 1948, we should who have invested their savings in houses. accept that and never do anything to change I went on to say- it. "The third class of people, consisting Mr. Houston: Do you believe that shares mainly of elderly people who have invested should go up in value? their life savings in rental houses, have suffered grossly unjust treatment by the Mr. MUNRO: I cannot spare the time to operation of the rental clauses of the Land­ deal with that interjection, particularly when lord and Tenant Acts." it is not relevant to the Bill. The second criticism put forward by hon. When I refer to figures, I shall be care­ members opposite is that we should do every­ ful to quote from publications that every thing possible to assist those who need homes. hon. member can see if he likes to go to Of course we should. Every member of the the Public Library. To indicate the change Committee completely agrees with that. Let in money values since 1 July, 1948, I quote me tell members of the Committee something from page 353 of the Queensland Year Book about what we have done. I summarised this 917 Landlord and Tenant [20 OCTOBER] Acts Amendment Bill four years ago, also, when I outlined the that hon. members will not get a false four-PQint plan that has been put into opera­ impression. Over that period I should say tion. that there has been an Australia-wide tendency towards the building of flats, so it The four points of the plan were- is not unnatural that there would be an 1. Building of houses by the State with increase, and a very material part of that a view to home-ownership and rental; increase is merely due to the changing times. Nevertheless it does indicate that the change 2. A generous policy of State guarantees in the law that we made has had some to facilitate finance for home ownership; material effect. Let us look at the figures 1. Encouragement of the building by for each of those eight years separately. private enterpri·se of houses and flats; There you get figures as close to proof of my contention as any figures possibly could 4. Encouragement of the conversion of be. I first take the figures for the four private houses to flats, and of the letting years ending 30 June, 1957. Taking them of houses which so far have not been year by year they are 156, 309, 200, and 174. made available for letting. Mr. Houston: Those figures are different Every one of those four parts of our plan from those appearing here. has been applied. It is encouraging to know that it has made a very considerable con­ Mr. MUNRO: This is the one from which tribution to the welfare of the people of the I am reading. State. Mr. Houston: These are the Queensland The third criticism was generally along statistics. the lines that the provisions of the 1957 Bill for exemption of premises constmcted Mr. MUNRO: That one is on the basis after 1 December, 1957, or Jet for the first of 31 December; this is on the basis of 30 time after 1 December, 1957, have not June. Those figures show substantially the assisted in the building of houses and flats same story as these. I have seen those but I for rental. In reply to an interjection I do not wish to quote figures on the basis of said off the cuff that that action had both 31 December and 30 June, particularly materially assisted in the building of flats. as 30 June, 1957, covers the half-year prior Since then I have been able to look at some to the introduction of the 1957 Bill. figures. I am indebted to the hon. member for Ashgrove for bringing into the Chamber I wish the hon. member would listen from the Parliamentary Library the instead of being so noisy. The figures for Quarterly Bulletin of Building Statistics. As the four years ending 30 June, 1954, to 30 far as I know there are no accurate statistics June, 1957, inclusive, are, I repeat, 156, 309, available of the number of houses built for 200 and 17 4. There is no indication of any rental purposes, but there are accurate increase at all. In fact, they indicate a statistics covering flats. position of stagnation and in the last three years they were declining. Mr. Houstan: You know that the Queens­ !;:md Housing Commission numbers have Taking the four years ending 30 June, gone down over the years. 1958, 1959, 1960 and 1961, the four financial years after the Government came to office Mr. MU;-.;Ro: We are not discussing the and after we made this change in the law, Housing Commi·ssion at the moment. I there is a uniform and consistent increase. should not say that I know that either. It Taking the four years in the order I men­ requires a little qualification. On page 8 tioned, the figures are, 3 31, 651, 922 and of the Quarterly Bulletin of Building 1,212. If anybody, in the face of those Statistics No. 54, a publication of the Com­ increases, can suggest that the amendment monwealth Bureau of Census and Statistics we made in 1957 did not have the sub­ we find figures of the number of flats corn: stantial effect we claimed it would have, pleted in Queensland in various years. I then I say they are not giving fair considera­ am sure every hon. member would like to tion to it. hear these figures. First let me take the four years prior to the 1957 amendment of the Mr. Houston: You have not proved that Landlord and Tenant Act, and then the four those figures refer to rental as against sale. years after that amendment. The total Secondly, how many building workers were fig~res for the four years, ending 3 0 Jt;ne, out of work during that first four-year pnor to the passing of that amendment are period? 839; the corresponding figure for the four years ending 3 0 June, 1961, are 3116- Mr. MUNRO: I should have to be some­ very close to four times as many. thing by way of an encyclopaedia to answer all sorts of questions not relevant to the Bill, Mr. Houston: The figures include motels. but as far as statistical evidence is concerned, the figures I have quoted have amply proved Mr. MUNRO: Do not let us worry about the claim I made on a previous occasion. little details. I am endeavouring to be fair. In placing those figures before the The fourth main criticism was that the Committee let me make a qualification so provision to permit increases in rentals is 918 Landlord and Tenant [ASSEMBLY] Acts Amendment Bill

inconsistent with the position of people who Mr. MUNRO: I have quoted from the Year own their own homes. One hon. member Book the statistics for 1948 and 1961. Does of the Opposition even suggested something the hon. member suggest that the basic wage to the effect that, to be consistent, we should today should be what it was in 1948? Of take action to correspondingly increase the course he does not. liabilities by way of loan on people who own their own homes. That might appear Mr. Houston: I an1 not suggesting it superficially to be right but, on analysis, it should, but the same relationship should is found to be completely absurd. The case apply to houses and bonds. of a tenant and the case of a person who owns his own home are not comparable. Mr. MUNRO: Other references were made The man who owns his own home has at to the effect of applying present-day actual least put something into it. Most of them values to a very old house built 80 years put a great deal into it. They put something ago. TITe case was put up that we were going of their savings into it. Many put their to apply to a dilapidated old house built 80 life's savings in and, if anybody suggests years ago the measure of value that would that the person who owns his own home be applied to a house of the same size built should be put in precisely the same position today. as a tenant, then he is not being fair. Mr. Houston: But you would take land Mr. Houston: You must admit that some value into account. - tenants do work around a place and improve the value with gardens, paths, and painting. Mr. MUNRO: The Bill does not deal with land values. I wish the noisy hon. member Mr. MUNRO: That is quite so. I am quite would make interjections relevant to the Bill. sympathetic to tenants. I am just as sym­ Mr. Honston: You take land values into pathetic to tenants as the hon. member for consideration in assessing values. Bulimba is, but we have to consider economic facts and, however much we might like to Mr. MUNRO: The Bill alters the basis only make houses available to tenants at extremely in relation to the dwelling house, the con­ low rentals, it is not within the financial struction. The law relating to land values capacity of the Government to do it com­ is not altered. The present-day value of pletely for all people who want it, and it a house built 80 years ago would be so very is not within the economic capacity of the small t!Tat it would be almost nil, but we community to bear it. We must put these are not even applying the present-day value. things on an economic basis and the best we We are giving the tenant the benefit of can do for tenants in the future is to create a sound economy so that people will be present-day actual value less 20 per cent. prepared to construct houses, to put their Hon. members opposite have not dealt with savings into houses with some expectation that allowance. of a reasonable return. Mr. Hanlon: Present-day values could be The other points were mainly incidental, higher than actual values. and I do not wish to take up much time in dealing with them. Capital gains were referred Mr. MUNRO: No. The present-day value to. As an accountant and one who has made follows very closely present-day building a study of the economy of these things, I costs, after making a reasonable allowance point out t!Tat most stories about capital gains for depreciation. are most misleading. They overlook the. fact I have already indicated the action the that in 1948-and I take that year as an Government are taking and I have given fig­ illustration-we had a financial ruler, the £1, ures to prove that more houses are being which had about 12 inches in it, and today, comparatively speaking, we have a financial constructed. We are pursuing that policy ruler, again the £1, that is only half the size. to the maximum of our capacity. It has made more ITouses and flats available, and Mr. Houston: That is again due to the that is the most effective way of bringing Federal Government. rentals down to a moderate level. .. Mr. MUNRO: Do not let us draw red There was one final point. Regrettably herrings across the trail. Let us accept t!Te there were references to unscrupulous land· fact that the £1 today has not the same lords, which were quite uncalled for. Among value as in 1948. If hon. members opposite any section of the people we can find persons are suggesting that a person has made a who are unscrupulous We can find a few capital gain if he bought something for £500 unscrupulous landlords and a few unscrupul­ in 1948 and sells it for £1,000 today, they ous tenants, but I do not think that matter are only misleading themselves and everybody should come into a discussion of a Bill of else. this kind, because the vast majority of land­ lords and tenants are honest and de.§.Crving Mr. Houston: What about the chap who people, and it should be our endeavour to hought a £500 bond in a CommonwealtlT give a reasonable measure of justice to both Loan in 1948? landlords and tenants. Auctioneers, Real Estate Agents, [20 OCTOBER] Debt Collectors, &c., Bill 919

Question-That the motion (Mr. Munro) the amount of cover required would differ be agreed to-put; and the Committee according to the status of the licensee. For divided- example-- AYES, 29 A corporation must secure a bond of Mr. Camm Mr. Low £6,000; , Campbell , Madsen ,.. Carey , Morris Each partner in a partnership must " Chalk .. Miiller secure a bond of £3,000; and Dr. Delamothe , Munro Mr. Dewar , Nicklin An individual must secure a bond of , Evans Dr. Noble £4,000. , Gaven Mr. Ramsden , Gilmore , Smith , Hart , Sullivan However, these amendments made no dis­ , Herbert , Tooth tinction between the types of business con­ ,, Hiley , Windsor ducted by the licensee and, having regard ,_, Jones Tellers: to the greater volume of trust moneys , K.nox Mr. Hughes , Lonergan .. Row handled by a real estate agent than by the average motor dealer or debt collector, it NOES, 22 is considered that the fidelity cover required Mr. Baxter Mr. Inch to be obtained by the real estate agent , Bennett , Lloyd should be increased. In some recent cases, , Bromley M ann the amount of compensation that is being , Byme Marsden ,., Davies , Melloy claimed exceeds the amount of the fidelity Dean O'Donnell bond and it follows that there may be cases , Donald , Thackeray where claimants can be compensated only , Dufficy , Wallace , Duggan on a pro rata basis. The Bill will substan­ Gunn Tellers: tially relieve this position and thus afford , Hanlon Mr. Aikens greater protection to the public. , Houston , Sherrington Mr. Duggan: Can you give any general PAIRS indication of some of the amounts that have Mr. Fletcber Mr. Hilton been outstanding? Have they been large , Hooper , Adair amounts? , Pizzey , Diplock , Richter , Newton , Hodges Graham Mr. MUNRO: I cannot produce particu­ ,, Wharton Tucker lars to the Committee. There are cases that , Pilbeam , Burrows have caused us some concern, but the Resolved· in tl1e affirmative. figures are incomplete at present and I can­ not give them accurately. The cases that Resolution reported. are incomplete or in course of investigation do justify an increase. FIRST READING The Bill therefore provides that- Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. A corporation carrying on the business Munro, read a first time. of real estate agency must secure a bond of £9,000. Each partner in a partnership carrying AUCTIONEERS, REAL ESTATE AGENTS, on the business of real estate agency must DEBT COLLECTORS AND MOTOR secure a bond of £4,500. DEALERS ACTS AMENDMENT BILL An individual carrying on the business INITIATION IN COMMITTEE of real estate agency must secure a bond of £6,000. (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Taylor, Clayfield, in the chair.) The proposed increase in the amount of the fidelity bond required to be obtained by Hon. A. W. MUNRO (Toowoong­ a real estate agent is in general conformity Minister for Justice) (3.58 p.m.): I move- with the recent increase in the maximum amount of compensation payable from the "That it is desirable that a Bill be Fidelity Fund established under the Queens­ introduced to amend the Auctioneers, Real land Law Society Acts, 1952 to 1961. In Estate Agents, Debt Collectors and Motor this connection I may mention that it was Dealers Acts, 1922 to 1960, in certain in the course of the consideration of the particulars." amendment of the Queensland Law Society Act that the hon. member for Windsor The object of the Bill is to provide a greater first directed my attention to the desirability measure of protection for the public by of there being an increase in the amount increasing the fidelity bond cover required of the bonds in terms of this Bill. to be obtained by real estate agents. Although not directly covered by the Hon. members will recall that the terms of the Bill, hon. members may be Auctioneers, Real Estate Agents, Debt interested to know to what extent this Collectors and Motor Dealers Acts were 50 per cent. increase in the bonds will amended last year increasing the then fidelity involve additional premiums. In this con­ bond cover of £2,000 and providing that nection I am happy to be able to report 920 Auctioneers, Real Estate Agents, [ASSEMBL YJ Debt Collectors, &c., Bill that my colleague the Treasurer has advised second-hand dealer, either because of lack me that the premium rate will be reduced of care in tracing the original owner or from £1 5s. per £1,000 to £1 per £1,000. perhaps in good faith, has completed the This means that the 50 per cent. increase transaction and disposed of the vehicle to in bond cover will be obtained with only a a bona fide buyer who subsequently learn·s 20 per cent. increase in cost. that the vehicle has been stolen. Whether the existing law protects him adequately, Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba West­ I do not know. Leader of the Opposition) (4.3 p.m.): I think all hon. members will agree that it is Mr. Munro: Generally the position is that desirable that there should be adequate estate agents handle very much larger sums. guarantees given by people engaging in Mr. DUGGAN: I would agree that the business with the public in which money amounts are larger. There would need to passes. If there are any malpractices, the be a large number of stolen vehicles to come public is then protected. However, it seems rather unusual that in such a short time the to the amount mentioned by the Minister. Government have found it necessary to I think it will be agreed that the propmal increase so substantially the amounts of is a desirable one. It indicates the almost these fidelity bonds. The increases are from astronomical sums involved in these matters. £6,000 to £9,000 for real estate agencies, The sums involved in third-party insurance, from £3,000 to £4,500 for each partner in land valuations and all sorts of things that a real estate agency, and from £4,000 to we deal with, seem to be mounting. All £6,000 for an individual real estate agent­ the time there is additional evidence of increases of 50 per cent. The Minister did inflation. It is not good enough to say that not give any reason why the situation has the figures suggest that you increase by I 0 deteriorated so quickly. It seems to me that per cent., 20 per cent. or 40 per cent. There it might be reasonable to assume that one does not seem to be so much a concerted of the reasons for this alarming state of attack on the problem of inflation as there affairs is inflation in the community, a seems to be a desire to impose additional matter that we were discussing a few burdens on somebody because of inflation. moments ago. Because of what appeared It is a vicious circle, without any· appropriate to be lucrative investments, people gambled steps being taken at Government level, both on the use of funds for real estate ventures Commonwealth and State, to combat it. We and all sorts of luxury proposals. When could develop some general argument along they found that they could not those lines, but I do not want to delay the realise on their investments and money Committee. We shall be pleased to have a became tight, no doubt some of them indulged look at the Bill. They seem to be simple in questionable practices that brought provisions brought about by the circumstances them into conflict with the department. outlined by the Minister, circumstances that That may be a reasonable assumption to I have amplified in some detail. Accordingly make. We know that at the present time we think it is a timely measure and accord pressure has been applied on many com­ our support to it. panies. We have evidence that some real estate developers find it necessary to ask Mr. SMITH (Windsor) (4.10 p.m.): To for conditions to be amended. There have my mind the strictures of the Leader of been suggestions that creditors have had to the Opposition are entirely unjustified. He be deferred because of pressing obligations has indicated that there has been a 50 per to the banks, debenture holders and so cent. increase in the amount of the bond, on. It would seem that this state of affairs referring to it as an astronomical increase to which we have directed public attention in a very short time. Apparently he is for a considerable time, could well be the unable to grasp that it is a protection for reason for the measure. We have tried to the public. It is a protection for the cus­ press the matter at high Government level tomers of the various agents. but it appears as if they do not seem to be Mr. Duggan: That is why we support it. taking very much notice of Labour's view­ point. To use a phrase that is very often Mr. SMITH: Yes, but the support was used in the Committee by some hon. mem­ grudgingly given. The Leader of the Opposi­ bers I say that "Time will vindicate the tion seemed to suggest that it was some fault attitude of the Australian Labour Party." of the Government that it was necessary to It will be agreed, however, that we should protect people against some agents who take step·s to protect members of the general through, not mismanagement, not bad invest­ public. The Bill is designed to achieve ments, but by the malapplication of trust that end. For that reason we must funds, had made the Bill necessary. I assure support it. the Leader of the Opposition that as this is a matter in which I have been personally A suggestion has been made about interested these amounts, in my opinion, are whether it might extend to motor-car dealers. too low. I should like to see the amounts I do not know whether the Minister increased to offer much more adequate pro­ specifically mentioned them. It seems that tection to these people who could, through in recent times many cases have come before no fault of their own, be disadvantaged if our notice of people who have wrongfully an agent through whom they are dealing disposed of cars to second-hand dealers. The does, perchance, embezzle funds. These are Auctioneers, Real Estate Agents, [20 OCTOBER] Debt Collectors, &c., Bill 921 trust funds and they should not be used for show they did not have any soft drink on any purpose other than the purpose for which the table and, first of all, when we were they were put in trust. called upon to honour the royal toast, rather than do as he would do and put some grog Mr. Duggan interjected. in his glass to toast Her Majesty, I used Mr. SMITH: I have often advocated the juice from my oyster cocktaiL That is harsher penalties for such misdemeanours. I how good a non-drinker I am. I have not have n_ot a soft spot for the wrongdoer. In had a drink for over 15 years and that is a prevwus amendment we required a much more than the hon. member for South Bris­ larger. bo.nd without any increase in premium. bane can say. That IS Important and I commend it to the Anyhow, let us forget about the hon. Leader of the Opposition for consideration. member. He is ~ardly worthy of Agents get the benefit of some protection our notice, if he Is worthy of our to their personal property in that the fidelity notice at all. When I was called upon bond may save some of their personal to respond to some toast or other or property being estreated in the case of an to make a speech, I told the members embezzlement. They previously got that of the Real Estate Institute, there at benefit without any increase in premium. their dinner at which I was a guest, Now, t.hey are getting an extra 50 per cent. that there was no trade, profession or protectiOn for an extra 20 per cent. premium. calling in Queensland today in worse I should be much more appreciative if the odour with the public than the \)pposition welcomed such a step as a protec­ members of the Real Estate Institute. tiOn to people who cannot afford it. Then I went on to tell them why in my honest and considered opinion I felt they did Mr.. ~ennett:. Don't they provide a strict not have the confidence of the public that superv!Slon on licences under this Act? they should have. I went on to tell them also that I had read in the Press where they . Mr. SMITH.: In most respectable profes­ sions people Will go wrong. Taking our own had made approaches to the Government to profession, a person's character when he is have control of the real estate industry, trade, admitted or when he first obtains his qualifi­ profession or calling handed over to them cations is no indication of what he will be exclusively in much the same way as control like in later years. We do not have to look of the legal, dental and medical professions far in our own profession to see the effect of has been handed over to members of those years on a person. One does not have to particular professions. After I had told them look very far to see how time changes people what I really thought about them and had following what is known as an honourable enumerated some of the acts that had been profession. I agree with the Leader of the done by some of the members of the Real Opposition that with this provision such Estate Institute in Townsville, I told them strict supervision will not be necessary. It that, having eaten their dinner and been their is a practical way to approach the matter guest, they could count me out definitely and I heartily endorse the stand taken by and irrevocably if any motion was ever the Minister. brought before the Queensland Parliament while I was a member of it, and that will Mr. AIKENS (Townsville South) (4.13 be for many y~ars to come, seeking to give p.m.): I. see nothing wrong with this Bill. the members of the real estate trade, pro­ In fact, 1n so much as the Minister has told fession or calling control of their own us about it, I see quite a good deal in it industry. I do say that there are of my own to commend. knowledge some members of the Real Estate Institute who are more or less honourable I should like to say here exactly what I men but there are some who are unmitigated said. at a big dinner given by the Real Estate rogues and there are some who in my opinion Institute at the Great Northern Hotel in should be in gaol serving long sentences, Townsvi!Je only a few weeks ago, at which I although it is very difficult at times to get a was perhaps their most distinguished and illustrious guest. conviction for some of the things they do allegedly on behalf of their clients. Mr. Bennett: Were you sober? I think what made me go off the deep Mr. AIKENS: If the hon. member for end, to use that saying, was the continual South Brisbane keeps harping about that I reference I had heard at that dinner to the will say something to him that I will regret tender care and solicitude that members of having said, so he may rest assured it will the Real Estate Institute have for the widow be a "beaut." and the poor person who has only a few pounds to invest, and how eager they are and . As I say, I was invited to go along to this how meticulous they are to protect the life dmner of the Real Estate Institute in Towns­ savings of the widow and the poor person. ville. It was the first dinner they had had. Their Brisbane officers went up for it and I told them honestly what I thought of it was purely and simply, if I may use a them and I told them that if I had my way vulgar term, a bucks' show. There were not they would be more rigidly controlled and any women there. I can mention, in view would have to conform to a very high of the interjection by the hon. member for standard. I said, "If you are seeking as you South Brisbane, that, because it was a bucks' say to clean the charlatans out of your trade, 922 Auctioneers, Real Estate, &c., Bill [ASSEMBLY] Questions profession or calling, you deserve commenda­ property worth £500, was fair and reasonable tion for it and I will give you all the assist­ and that the charges were fixed by the ance I can to do it, but until such time as you members of the Institute themselves, and he have done it I will have the same opinion of thought they were a competent body of men you _as I have of the legal profession and the and "blah, blab, blah". They had some medical profession, and that is not very doubt about whether I had asked the Minis­ high." ter the question, and whether the Minister Mr. Smith: You will not get an invitation had replied in those terms, so I said to them, to next year's dinner. "When I get down to Parliament House when the Sessions opens I will dig up my question Mr. AIKENS: I think I will, because in to the Minister for Justice and his reply, and North Queensland they appreciate an honest send it to you for any observations you may man even if he expresses an opinion at care to make. Being an honest man, and a variance with their own. Down here when man who keeps his word, I sent my question YOlf .express an opinion at variance w'ith the and the Minister's reply to them and I only opmwn of someone else, you are branded as a wish I could show hon. members the reply rogue, a f