ExtractCOMMONWEALTH OF Official Committee Hansard

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON PETITIONS

Reference: Petitions from Victoria

THURSDAY, 30 OCTOBER 2008

MELBOURNE

BY AUTHORITY OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

PET 28 REPS Thursday, 30 October 2008

BAXTER, Mrs Mary Beresford Kingsmill, Private capacity

JACKSON, Mr Adrian, Private capacity

JUDEH, Mr Asem, Private capacity

Palestine- conflict

CHAIR—I now invite Mr Asem Judeh and Mr Adrian Jackson, on behalf of petitioners who are concerned about conflict between Palestinians and Israelis, to give evidence. I also understand that there will be another person before the committee, Mrs Mary Baxter. Do you have Extractanything to say about the capacity in which you appear before the committee? Mr Judeh—I have been an Australian-Palestinian activist for a long time.

Mr Jackson—I am appearing as one of Asem’s witnesses to what he is going to talk about.

Mrs Baxter—I have worked on the ground for a period adding up to a full year in Tel Rumeida, , where the most violent settlers are. I am also an Anglican clergy widow. I am 77, and I was in my seventies when I was working on the ground in Tel Rumeida.

CHAIR—Thank you. Although the committee does not require you to speak under oath, you should understand that this meeting is a formal proceeding of the parliament. Giving false or misleading evidence is a serious matter and may be regarded as a contempt of the parliament. Would you like to make a short opening statement before we proceed to questions?

Mr Judeh—Yes. First of all, I would like to acknowledge that this is the Aborigines’ land, and I would like to thank the committee for changing the petition process. I did a few petitions in the past, made around 11 submissions to the parliament and appeared before two parliamentary committees on the Middle East and human rights. Having said that, this was an interesting experience for various reasons. We will be able to get more signatures if there is an online petition, for example, to make the public able to interact and make their voice heard clearly by our politicians—I have to say rude politicians, who abuse their executive power and also abuse the people’s parliament; that is why I am here. It is not the Rudd parliament and it is not the opposition parliament; it is our parliament. It is people’s parliament. Interestingly, in February said sorry to the Aborigines and in March he abused his executive power by his Israel motion. This motion drew wide condemnation from the public. There was an advertisement in the Australian signed by many organisations and unions as well, such as CFMEU, and I table this.

CHAIR—Okay, we can take that as an exhibit.

Mr Judeh—Okay. On this motion, I see that the parliamentarians have the right, like any Australian citizen, to be pro-Israel, but they cannot abuse their power, because this kind of abuse will give the pro-Israel lobby more power to intimidate the wider community. I am sure that even members of parliament who have the privilege to speak out in the parliament are being

PETITIONS Thursday, 30 October 2008 REPS PET 29 criticised and labelled anti-Semitic, and I have a quote from Julia Irwin in 2002 when she raised that motion. This topic is rarely debated in public life by the media. Having said that, even many recent polls have found that, despite government and media rhetoric suggesting otherwise, a majority of blame the US and Israel for the current Middle East crisis and violence. Our politicians and media alike often give far too little credit for public intelligence and understanding. I have here two recent polls by Roy Morgan to table as well.

CHAIR—We can have those as an exhibit as well.

Mr Judeh—They show clearly that 83 per cent of the Australian public believe that there will be no peace in the Middle East without resolving the Israeli-Palestine conflict. If that is the public opinion, how dare the government and the opposition abuse the people’s parliament’s power and raise that offensive motion?

CHAIR—Fine. Before we go to Mr Jackson to make an opening statement, I want to say to Asem:Extract you mentioned online petitions. You got over 4,900 signatures for your petition. How did you get so many signatures?

Mr Judeh—I have had my own digest since 1997, which is the first digest about the Middle East, based on my scientific research and the submissions I made to the parliament. So I mobilised my network and I have managed to get contacts in Sydney, Brisbane and Victoria attending public meetings et cetera. That is why I managed to get that large number of signatures. If I were working full time on this matter, I am sure I would get many, many more.

CHAIR—Okay. You might be interested to know that we will be starting an inquiry looking at online petitioning—e-petitioning. You might be interested in putting in a submission because, as you stated, where you got over 4,900 written signatures you could have got a lot more if you had had that electronic petitioning. Mr Jackson, did you want to make a quick opening statement?

Mr Jackson—Yes. I am from Middle Park. I spent 23 years in the Regular Army as an infantry officer and I have run a bed and breakfast business from my home for the last 13 years. When I left the army, I joined the Liberal Party, and I was in the Liberal Party for nine years until 2003, when I was suspended for 12 months because I criticised the invasion of Iraq and also the oppression of the Palestinians. That did not go down well in my federal electorate of Ports, which covers the Caulfield area. is the sitting member there at the moment. I found within the Liberal Party that it did not want any debate on the Palestinian issue; it was more intimidation and shouting down at you. A fellow called Frank Greenstein, who is high up in the Victorian division at the moment, I believe, said: ‘Why are you criticising Israel’s treatment of Palestinians? I am trying to recruit people.’ This bloke had just arrived from South Africa—he was not even an Australian citizen and was probably quite happy to work under the apartheid government oppressing black people —and he is recruiting the same types to one of the branches in the Caulfield area, which I found bizarre. I said, ‘Mate, this is the Liberal Party, not the Conservative Party.’ I was suspended for 12 months and I never rejoined, so I have been out of the Liberal Party for 5½ years. Helen Shardey and Senator Troeth even tried to have me expelled, but that was defeated at policy assembly. The day after I left the Liberal Party, my email address was disconnected.

PETITIONS PET 30 REPS Thursday, 30 October 2008

CHAIR—I am so sorry for interrupting you, but today’s public hearing is mainly to talk about the petition that is before us, not what happened within the Liberal Party and your being expelled.

Mr Jackson—Suspended.

CHAIR—Or your 12 months suspension. So it is mainly the petition that we have in front of us. Would you be able to speak to that?

Mr Jackson—All right. One thing that concerned me after I left the Liberal Party was the fact that, during the Hezbollah Israel conflict two years ago, three politicians that I know of—Helen Shardey, a state MP for Caulfield; Michael Danby, a federal Labor MP; and Senator Mitch Fifield—attended a pro-Israel rally on 17 June at the same time as Australian expats visiting relatives were being bombed in Lebanon, and there were thousands of them. None of them were killed, but I think some were wounded, and I found that appalling. To that extent, I put an ad in the BaysideExtract Weekly criticising Israeli terror, as I called it. The News Ltd paper would not even publish it, but the Fairfax local paper did. A few days later, Fifield raised it in parliament, and it is now in Hansard, so it is there forever. I think the conduct of those three MPs, and there may have been more, was almost treasonable. I think we have something in the Constitution that says you cannot work for a foreign power, and I am absolutely appalled that these people would sell their soul basically for votes, I assume. It is absolutely appalling. So I would mention that.

Only two weeks ago I rang my local state MP about the Big M Melbourne Marathon that was locking in Middle Park residents for two hours in the morning. We could not get out. People could not go to work, bread deliveries could not occur and all that sort of stuff. I was critical of that, and I got cranky with one of his staff members who was giving me a hard time and I hung up abruptly. He then wrote me a letter saying things like, ‘My staff have reported a number of offensive and racist comments, particularly in relation to our strong Jewish community.’ So I sent that to a local newspaper.

In state parliament on 20 September last year, when I stood as an independent candidate in the Albert Park by-election, there was some debate about where I was on preferences—for the Liberal or Labor party. It did not really matter where I or the other non-Labor or non-Liberal candidates were, because those preferences would not be distributed. In state parliament, it appeared under the heading ‘anti-Semitism’. That is bizarre.

The trouble with what they call the Israel lobby infiltrating the Labor Party and particularly the Liberal Party in Victoria is that moderates like me, reasonably moderate people, have the potential to be radicalised. I am not, but it is a dangerous situation, and I think people should be allowed to discuss and debate within political parties. Michael Danby has also been pretty obnoxious, so it is not just the Liberal Party.

CHAIR—I think we might have to stop there because, as I said, this hearing is mainly to do with the petition that is actually before us regarding the Prime Minister’s congratulations to Israel on their anniversary. Mary, did you want to make just a brief statement regarding the petition?

PETITIONS Thursday, 30 October 2008 REPS PET 31

Mrs Baxter—Just a brief statement on that. I did write a letter to Kevin Rudd and received a reply about objecting, and I do strongly object to such a positive statement about a country which does two things: firstly, it does not respect Australian people in the same way that we are expected to respect them. I have been put in detention just for landing on their soil at of 76 and I became very ill and was put in hospital as well. This sort of thing is not even known or acknowledged in Australia, but that is what has happened. They do not respect a good, respectable Christian woman from Kooyong. Peter Costello is my MP. He is not so much used to me any more. They just show very little respect to any other country. They do exactly what they want, and I do believe that what they really need is some sort of sanction. If you actually look at the Israeli newspapers, you know that there is some dissent within Israel as to what is happening.

I do not believe they should have ever been applauded by our government while they are involved in the most appalling occupation. Today, in this morning’s Ha’aretz, an Israeli newspaper, there was a report of an Israeli soldier shooting a 68-year-old shepherd in the back. The shepherd did have a shotgun, but he was shot in the back. He had been attacked so many timesExtract by settlers, he came out with a gun to protect himself and was shot in the back and killed. That sort of thing happens week after week after week—and we applauded them. I find that really shocking.

CHAIR—Asem, I have been made aware that you have recently returned from a conference in Turkey at which issues raised in the petition that was presented to the federal parliament on 23 June this year were discussed; is that correct? Can you give the committee the outcome of that conference—exactly what the conference was and, if you discussed your petition that was lodged in the parliament, what was the outcome?

Mr Judeh—Yes, the conference was the world conference of the International Business Forum. As part of that conference, we had the Palestinian business forum to get the Palestinian diaspora, if you like, together to try to find financial solutions to the problem there. They presented four projects, like the desalination of water for Gaza, employment from abroad, food for Palestine and a project to support the Palestinian minority inside so they can survive. We managed to collect $100 million for those four projects. The conference was opened by the Turkish Prime Minister, and the Turkish President also attended the International Business Forum dinner.

The Palestinian delegation was well received by the public and the Turkish officials. It was an interesting and good experience for me to communicate with the Palestinian diaspora. That is something I usually love to do and am always pushing for. That is one of the things nowadays: Palestinians are everywhere and are, as I am, practising our full citizenship rights. I made that clear to ASIO and to the Australian Federal Police when they approached me. This file has some of the communications I had with the Australian Federal Police and ASIO. ASIO ignored my advice. They ignored the fact that Israeli terrorist groups came to the country to collect money for the illegal settlements in the West Bank. According to the International Criminal Court, as you may be aware—because Australia is a signatory to the International Criminal Court— changing population within occupied territories is a criminal act, and Australia is financing that illegal act with taxpayers’ money.

Mr ADAMS—I did not quite understand that. I would like to know what the assertion is. Your assertion is that something illegal occurred through an Australian agency?

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Mr Judeh—Yes.

Mr ADAMS—Could you just say that again?

Mr Judeh—I believe in scientific research and, in 1997, when I founded the APHEDA campaign to support Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, I came across this document from AusAID—

Mr ADAMS—Which is part B tax deductibility—

Mr Judeh—the Overseas Aid Gift Deduction Scheme, and I found that they listed a Jewish organisation called United Israel Appeal Refugee Relief Fund. During my research, I found that the foreign minister at that time, Labor Minister Gareth Evans, I think, changed the act because, to get overseas funding, the country must be listed as a developing country. So they changed the act toExtract include Israel to be able to apply to the Treasurer to get that status. This organisation was involved in changing the population in an occupied territory, using taxpayers’ money.

CHAIR—Okay. I think we are just getting away a little bit from the petition that is in front of us. Mr Broadbent, do you have a question?

Mr BROADBENT—Firstly, Mary, I have the greatest respect for your past and your current position and the work that you have done but, if you came to this country as a 77-year-old member of the Jewish senior church and you did not have the documentation, we would put you in detention until we found out who you were. That is what we do here.

Mrs Baxter—They knew who I was.

Mr BROADBENT—We might know who you are here, who somebody is here too, but we put you in detention until such time as we can do health checks. That is what we do. Every nation does it.

Mrs Baxter—I have been before.

Mr BROADBENT—This country gives $45 million to the Palestinians on the—

Mr ADAMS—West Bank.

Mr BROADBENT—No, West Bank get $20 million; the Gaza Strip get $25 million. I have visited both of those places. This nation has a great contribution towards that country. We are keen to support and help wherever we can. You report here the letter from the minister actually alludes to the fact that we do even more work than that on a humanitarian level when we are asked. Do you expect there is more that this nation could be doing on behalf of the Palestinian country?

Mr Judeh—I am well aware about that. That is not enough. For Australia, the country—

Mr BROADBENT—Per capita, it would be one of the greatest contributions from a country in the world.

PETITIONS Thursday, 30 October 2008 REPS PET 33

Mr Judeh—I got your point.

Mr BROADBENT—Per capita, as compared to any other nation in the world’s support for the Palestinians, we would be one of the greatest contributors.

Mr Judeh—I got your point. Do not forget that the Australian foreign minister—

Mr BROADBENT—Stephen Smith?

Mr Judeh—No, no, 1940s, who chaired the United Nations—

Mr BROADBENT—Just before Stephen Smith! MrExtract ADAMS—Evatt? Mr Judeh—Evatt, yes.

Mr ADAMS—Dr Evatt.

Mr Judeh—divided Palestine, based on the pro-Israel lobby pressure. That is why he was honoured with a forest in his name inside Israel. He was the first one to be honoured. Palestinians do not need money, but money is not the only thing. Israel managed to go ahead with their daily crimes, as Mary said, because politicians and the media were complacent and silent. I will read here an email received from Professor Margaret Reynolds, a former Labor senator, who was at the United Nations. This is what she wrote to me in 1999:

I was at the UN in 1997 when Australia abstained on an important peace resolution together with only a handful of nations … I was embarrassed that we as a nation were so lacking in understanding and support.

Palestinians need your support in the parliament. They need the parliament to sanction Israel—it is a criminal state, it is an apartheid state, it is a terrorist state. That is what Palestinians need.

CHAIR—I think we are just going back. Could you please just state to the petitions committee, and for the Hansard record, the reasons behind this petition? It was really to read the petition and correspondence that we have received from you over the last couple of weeks. Your concern was the congratulations to Israel in the Prime Minister’s speech on 12 March 2008— that was that motion on Israel’s day of independence.

Mr Judeh—Yes.

CHAIR—The impression I am getting from correspondence, and tell me if I am wrong, is that you are saying, ‘Fine; if the Prime Minister has done this for a particular country, why isn’t he doing it for other countries who are also celebrating their days?’

Mr Judeh—To answer this question, I will go back to 2001, to an email received from Kevin Rudd. He sent it to me when I criticised the ABC at that time. At that time, Mr Kevin Rudd was on the backbench. He did not have any portfolio—I think he had been elected recently at that time. He wrote to me:

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Thank you for taking the time to send me your message concerning the ABC. The issues you have raised are of concern. There is always criticism of media coverage of some issue—and I think that there has been a lot of criticism of media coverage of issues in the Middle East. I think that criticism and debate of such topics can only help to produce a more balanced approach to reporting in our media. Your critical comments can only help to address the balance.

He was on the backbench then. I can call myself an expert on the pro-Israel lobby in this country. I have read the Jewish newspaper since 1997 and I keep every copy. In the public submissions I have made to the federal parliament, I have quoted them, and I know how to read between the lines very well—

Mr BROADBENT—If I can just interrupt for a moment and talk to the chair? We are about to run out of time. CHAIRExtract—That is what I was just about to say. Mr BROADBENT—There are probably other questions we would like to ask. So, do you mind if I ask you a question now, Mr Judeh?

Mr Judeh—I am happy for you to do that.

Mr BROADBENT—In Stephen Smith’s reply to the committee, he says:

Fundamental to the Australian Government’s Middle East policy is a commitment to a two-state solution to the conflict, based on Israel’s right to live in peace within secure borders and in recognition of the legitimate aspirations of the Palestinian people for their own state. Australia supports a negotiated solution to the conflict consistent with UN Security Council resolutions 242 and 338.

What comment would you have on that paragraph from his letter?

Mr Judeh—I would say it is a political statement. I was a Labor Party member once. If you read the Labor Party and Liberal Party foreign policy, they will have exactly that paragraph and it never changes. How will they support a two-state solution when Israel day after day steals more land and builds more settlements? What viable Palestinian state will be left for Palestinians to have? I call it a freak statement from our foreign minister. Let us not forget that when Kevin Rudd appointed Stephen Smith as foreign minister he said to the media:

Stephen I believe will bring great talent and ability to this task, it’s critical for Australia as we again seek to assert an independent voice of Australia in affairs of the world …

Is there any member of parliament, especially on the frontbench, who can stand publicly and criticise Israel?

Mr ADAMS—Is there an opportunity of bringing the politics of Palestine back together so that we can have a united Palestine to argue to the Australian government for a position?

Mr Judeh—If there is no interference from Israel, and the international community do not listen to the Israeli pressure, I think there will be a chance.

PETITIONS Thursday, 30 October 2008 REPS PET 35

Mr ADAMS—But there is always conflict. We have had Mr Jackson—and I wish him well in getting his suspension over and getting back into the Liberal Party. But there is always conflict within political parties and political pushing and shoving. That is a reality, but when it breaks out into total violence between different political groups it is very hard for other governments to find central ground. Which group gets support et cetera? Those are very real political issues and very sad issues.

Mr Judeh—I think politicians are smart enough to understand the facts on the ground. You are entitled to go for a parliamentary visit to the Middle East during the parliamentary holidays et cetera, and some of you go to visit Israel through visits organised by the pro-Israel lobby to brainwash them. Kevin Rudd did it twice. We need moral courage from the politicians and the media.

CHAIR—Okay. We are going over time. I think Ms Vamvakinou has one question.

MsExtract VAMVAKINOU—Asem, you have talked a lot about politicians and the role that they can play. Australia is a country that has people here from a great diversity of backgrounds. Conflict resolutions and conflict situations are commonly articulated in this country, and that is part of our democracy. What do you think the members of the Jewish and Palestinian community in Australia could do from the ground to actually lead some way into discussion, because this is a very difficult issue.

If you will forgive me, I think calling the Prime Minister a freak does no service whatsoever to the actual cause for which you are advocating, to which I am very sympathetic personally. Having said that, I always feel there is a role for members of both communities in this country, those who live in a country in which we can deal with this conflict in a relatively coherent way by comparison with the way it might be dealt with in other parts of the world. I mean the role that all of you can play in assisting the dialogue process or in assisting in other ways so that we can deal with an issue on which there is agreement that it is of concern to everybody, not just those in Australia but also internationally.

Mr Judeh—Thanks for this important question. I visited the holocaust museum here in Victoria in 1998. I had two dialogues, being the first member of the Palestinian community to have two public forums with the Jewish community in 1998 and 1999 as well. From my experience, Australia is considered to have the second largest number of holocaust survivors after Israel. This has reflected badly on the Jewish community. There are a lot of Jewish people who do not belong to the pro-Israel lobby or, if you like, to the Zionist movement. They do not dare speak out. I think the only courageous person is , who published My Israel Question book two years ago. You have to keep this in your mind. Even last year I was approached by many PhD students at a Victorian university working with a senior Jewish lady from the Australian Jewish Democratic Society. I cannot work with any Jewish people—well, they must be anti-Zionist, because I am extremely anti-Zionist. Zionism is a racist ideology, a terrorist ideology, and a fascist ideology. If a Jew states publicly that he is anti-Zionist, I am happy to work with him. That is why all of these dialogues failed.

CHAIR—Thank you for that. We will have to suspend proceedings until 1.30 due to our lunch break. I would like to thank the three of you for coming before the Standing Committee on Petitions today. I have actually been to Palestine and I have been to at my own expense,

PETITIONS PET 36 REPS Thursday, 30 October 2008 and I have seen it with my own eyes and I can understand your concerns. I hope that one day we will see a just and fair peace for all people of the Middle East.

Mr Judeh—Can I say something?

CHAIR—Just briefly, please, because we are suspending for lunch.

Mr Judeh—I want to quote from Gough Whitlam’s book, Abiding Interests, in 1997.

CHAIR—Okay, that is fine, but just briefly.

Mr Judeh—It is:

The question for members of State Parliament is not about why members of the Federal Parliament should adhere to world standards.Extract It is about why the Federal Government is denying Australians the world standards which only the members of the Federal Parliament can gain for Australians. The question for members of the Federal Parliament is not about why Australia should adhere to world standards. It is about why Australia is taking so long to do so.

I think this is applicable to Israel and Palestine.

CHAIR—Thank you for your attendance.

Proceedings suspended from 12.41 pm to 1.35 pm

PETITIONS