Australians at War Film Archive

Alan Loxton - Transcript of interview

Date of interview: 1st December 2003

http://australiansatwarfilmarchive.unsw.edu.au/archive/700

Tape 1

00:46 Thanks very much for taking part.

Well I think it’s important.

Yeah I’m glad you do. You’re somebody we very much want to talk to and we’re glad you made the time for us. To begin with, as I said,

01:00 we just want to get a point by point summary of your life and service career. So maybe you could tell us in no real detail, but tell us about where you grew up in your family.

Yes. Well my father served in the First World War as a doctor. He came home in - towards the end of 1918. Mother was ill - he got compassionate leave to come home. And then he bought a practice, a medical practice run down in Enmore.

01:30 Edgeworth Road, Enmore which is near Newtown of course. I was born in 1920. And so, after a while I went to a little pre-school I suppose you’d call it these days, run by Kathleen Thomson. She was very good and I was very lucky. But eventually I found my way to Newington Prep School.

02:00 Newington College. And I spent oh, a good seven years there, which was useful, very useful. I was very young for that period. Too young really. And eventually found my way into the main prep school where I did reasonably well academically.

02:30 Father become dissatisfied with what was happening. There was a change of headmaster. And eventually, on the change of headmaster he moved me out to Scots, Bellevue Hill which was a fair way away. But it wasn’t a bad move for me except it meant a lot of travelling. I finished up the last five years at school as a boarder at Scots.

Where did you join up?

03:00 Sydney. Victoria Barracks. Yeah, so nothing unremarkable about that one. Saturday morning, a group of us who were SUR [Sydney University Regiment] university regiment people made our way by invitation, to the parade ground at the barracks. And we were

03:30 interviewed then told to go away and then come back again when we were invited. The invitation was slow coming but we…the four of us got fed up and decided we’d go up and grasp the nettle and by Thursday we decided, Wednesday night actually, we said blow this, this is too slow for us.

04:00 So we paraded ourselves out to where we knew the 22nd Brigade was training its young junior officers, as junior leaders and we talked ourselves into the mess, and Brigadier Taylor who’s face you can see on one of those books, he apparently liked the look of us. We had a good

04:30 pedigree in the SUR no doubt about that, that was very useful training. So we were then invited to join the 18th, what became the 18th Battalion. It formed on the 28th or 29th July, I think, and there was troops marched down from Tamworth, came down by train and I remember

05:00 the morning. Cold winter’s morning at Wallgrove, with country blokes coming off the train, must have been about 6 o’clock before we met them. I think they wondered what they’d got in me. I wondered what the heck I’d got in them. I never…SUR students, university students are rather different from the average bloke that works on the road in

05:30 the country, as you can understand. A very good learning curve. A very quick learning curve but it was one we went through. No, I think we got on top of it. I think we got on top of each other, which was the more important part of it.

We’ll come back and talk about what you learnt in training. From here came you take us through where you trained and then where you were to serve as well. What in the SUR?

In the

06:00 18th from there on. What happened to you after you joined the 18th Battalion.

Oh yes. What …

Just take us through the places you went and we’ll come back and talk about it all in detail later.

Places we went? What in the 18th Battalion.

Firstly where you trained and then where you were sent to serve.

Oh right, we trained in the SUR at Wallgrove.

06:30 No sorry, I beg your pardon. We didn’t go to Wallgrove in the SUR. We trained at Narromine. The Menangle race course, we used to do 7 days during the May vacation at university then

07:00 back again in the September. So we had 14 days a year and we had the hide to think we were fully trained. I remember thinking why do we want a 90 day camp. But we went through and it was good. When war broke out just shortly after

07:30 that we were in camp at Menangle race course. That was a very good camp, that was a very good idea. And I will remember the time we spent in camp on that race course including a period when we did a 70 day, no 7 day exercise on Bulli Pass. Did I say 7 days? It was probably about 5.

08:00 5 days on Bulli Pass. And that was good training. Try to manoeuvre a water cart full of water down Bulli Pass is something to be beholden. The water surges in the tank and you’ve got 5 or 6 men on ropes on either wheel and you need to be fairly, need to have

08:30 fairly strong gang of blokes doing that. And I always remember that, and I go down Bulli Pass and I think, gee here’s this corner. This is where the darn thing nearly got away from us. But it didn’t and then about one o’clock in the morning on the 5th or the 6th day we broke camp and came back to Menangle.

09:00 We route marched and I’ll never forget the marching experience in the very early hours of whatever it was. September. And dog tired, terribly tired. We’d been out for 5 days and we were picked up by the SUR Pipes and Drums which is

09:30 a very well known pipe band. And I’ve never forgotten that. That was a splendid experience. Pipes are magnificent to march to, particularly when you’re tired. You sort of pick your feet one after the other and put them down, apparently in the right place. But no, that was good. So anyhow we broke camp there in March and eventually the

10:00 camp came to an end, and we finished that camp. Went back to the office to work. I was an article law clerk. At that stage the Battle of Britain was very truly on so we, everybody, all my friends and that sort of thing were joining up. So there was no point in hanging

10:30 around. All the decent blokes around the place, in my opinion, were enlisting. And I thought I’ve got flat feet and I thought, oh God this is no good they’re not going to take me. And I was very upset about it, so anyhow I decided to give it a go. And I gave it a go and I defeated the doctors and they

11:00 enlisted me, they took me in, which was great. I was very proud of myself.

What sort of tests did they give you when you went into join up?

Tests?

Medical examination.

Oh not much, not much. I think, I don’t know what they go through now but I’m all right. My health is good.

11:30 Has been all my 80 years. That’s, you know, no I was good. My father was a doctor and he brought me up as a doctor should bring his sons up.

How was the AIF [Australian Imperial Force] different to what you experienced in the SUR?

Oh dreadfully differently but otherwise it wasn’t much different. No it was, the troops

12:00 were a different make up. And I was very proud of it actually. I thought they were a great team of men. They were country people and I learnt a lot of respect for the country man in the 18th Battalion. They were a fine unit.

You mentioned it was a steep learning curve - what do you mean by that? That was,

12:30 what, in relation to being on top of my reaction to, quite frankly an odd looking group of men, who’d I’d never seen before in my life en masse. But I had to realise that these were my mates for the next x number of years. And they were too, they were good mates. The word mate is very important and we learnt that

13:00 very quickly. If you look at any POW [prisoner of war] writings you’ll find that there’s a constant use of that word “mate”. And it’s not artificial it’s genuine. Particularly when you get to Sandakan and read the Sandakan writings. Sandakan (UNCLEAR) go again. Sandakan writings are …No we

13:30 I can’t say I’m not too proud to have been a member of that group. And then war came, or rather war came to Singapore and the Japanese invaded Malaya up north.

14:00 Up north and we were caught short. We were down at a place called Mersing which is on the east coast and we were forced to retreat. The Japanese came in behind us and that was the story of Malaya. The Japanese coming around behind

14:30 forcing you off your positions. At Nithsdale was one of those (UNCLEAR) where we had a very well prepared position there and the Japs have been heard to say, that had they been forced to land at Mersing they wouldn’t have succeeded, we would’ve driven them back. Because we had

15:00 a superior position, superior preparations and what have you. Oh no it was a very good unit. Arthur Varley was the CO [Commanding Officer] and he was a country man, he came from Inverell. He was a stock and station agent. He commanded the, I think the 35th battalion in the militia. A lot of the original loses were militiamen, but a

15:30 lot of them weren’t. But that didn’t necessarily mean they were AIF officers. I don’t think I will say too much more about that but there were some failures there. We mustn’t judge them, particularly in a function like this.

What happened to you then, after the Japanese invaded?

Well we were forced back onto the island.

16:00 On Singapore island over the Straits of Johor. And dug in at Kranji on the Straits. And eventually had to surrender. The story of the surrender is well known. And then we found ourselves in a terrible position

16:30 really. But, let me see it was a Friday that I was, my battalion was cut off. No. No I was cut on - yes on the Friday and we finally surrendered the position generally, oh sorry the surrender came on the Sunday.

17:00 So it was Friday, Saturday, Sunday that the fighting in our sector continued. Continued for a week. It’s a mistake, a serious mistake for the AIF in Malaya to be treated as nothing more than POWs [prisoner of war]. They were a lot more than that. They were very fine fighting troops. And

17:30 they had a fighting, a casualty record which was higher at that time than any other division in the AIF. That’s not often recognised. 9 Div didn’t have as high a casualty rate as we did. But after North Africa 9 Div had more

18:00 casualties than we did. But it took them to go through the North African campaign to overtake our casualties. Casualties in Borneo were very high. Not in Borneo, in Malaya, very high. (UNCLEAR) I mean.

What happened to you in that fighting?

18:30 Well I was wounded in my right leg from bomb shrapnel on (UNCLEAR). And made my way to medical aid point and finally taken into a hospital just on the water front. Nothing I could do about that. I couldn’t walk. Some of the scar’s still there.

19:00 I finally met - I was taken out to Selarang Barracks by ambulance. I was lucky and I spent from then til July in the camp in Selarang Barracks. And then the rest (UNCLEAR).

19:30 And then in July we were loaded onboard this dreadful ship - the [NK] Ubi Maru and taken to Borneo. Which is the next part of the story.

Just take us through that next part and we’ll come back and we’ll talk about all these things again. But where did you land in Borneo?

Sandakan. Sandakan.

And how long did you spend there?

Where, in Borneo?

In Sandakan. 20:00 From then until October ’42, sorry ’43. Then we were taken by the Japanese back to Kuching in (UNCLEAR). Looking back westwards to Singapore. They separated the officers from the men. It

20:30 wasn’t a bad camp in Sandakan - in Kuching. But better than Sandakan camp.

Were you at Kuching when the war ended.

Yes. Yes the war ended on 15th August I remember. And we waited about, about 3 weeks

21:00 I suppose before we were released. They eventually picked us up, brought us home in the [MV] Wanganella, a hospital ship, which was a very comfortable way of coming home. Far better than coming home by aeroplane which was far too quick. I’m glad we didn’t do that. We came back at our leisure

21:30 according… to enable our health to recover somewhat. I was reasonably well when I got home. Not too well but reasonably well. I was down to about 8 stone but where my football weight was, before the war, was 13 stone. So bob’s your uncle.

What happened to you after you came home? Did you stay in the army?

No, I went back to university.

22:00 Got married. Married in, I better take this carefully, end of September, end of, beginning of February I was married, on the 2nd February. I was still a student. I’d done one year, one and a half years

22:30 and we had a baby and - very quickly really - not too quickly, but quickly. Wasn’t out of time. And then my wife then, she was magnificent. Her photo’s in my room. She just sat by me while I studied every night for 3 years. Don’t know how she did it.

23:00 She did it. It’s an example of the support that a woman can give to a man who’s got a job to do. I’m eternally grateful to her. I mean, I wasn’t a bad student but I wasn’t that hot. But I had been dux at Scots so you know I had the future in front of me. And I had a good set of

23:30 articles. Was a very big firm. Allen, Allen and Hemsley. I eventually became a senior partner there. Oh no, I was lucky. I’ve been very lucky from the word go and a lot of it’s due to my SUR training. And my parental training I suppose. My school I was sent to. My birth.

24:00 It started.

Let’s go back and talk about some of those early experiences. We’ll just take a quick break. … Can you tell us what it was like growing up in the depression in Enmore?

Is this on the tape? Lousy. It really was. I mean to see men who normally would be in a working

24:30 job in town, with a blue suit on and that sort of thing, digging a trench on a footpath opposite my father’s surgery in Edgeworth Road, was something I’ve never forgotten. But I remember seeing this poor (UNCLEAR). I think he only worked for about 2 hours but he wasn’t there the next day.

25:00 Yeah, that was that. They were on the dole and there wasn’t much dole, there wasn’t much work for the dole. That’s how they got it, that’s how they fed their families. I remember being the doctor - Father was (UNCLEAR) for requests for help. And I remember him saying to

25:30 Mother one day, “Look dear we really will have to dry up on these sandwiches we’re giving out. We can’t keep on doing it.” And she said, “Well we have to. There’s no way out of it.” How they solved that I don’t know but they did. That was the position a doctor was in. He was a pro bono bloke. Father and Mother were

26:00 in the days when the doctor was a centrepiece in the community. No legal aid, no Medicare, no nothing like that. And you know, no fight over bulk billing. I remember in my father’s day book which he entered the patient’s names as they came in.

26:30 There was a list of the people who had come into the surgery. And the names would appear one under the other with a mysterious code after them. You know MC. And I said to Mother, “What’s MC?” And she said, “Oh that’s worker’s comp.” No it must’ve been WC. “That’s worker’s comp.” I said, “What’s worker’s comp?” And she

27:00 told me. The old fashioned worker’s comp. So that was the start of that.

You mentioned your father had served in the First World War. What did he tell you about that as a boy?

Not much. Parents don’t talk to their sons and daughters very much. I didn’t talk to mine either. My children.

27:30 What kind of a father was he for you?

A bit hard. I’ve a right to say that. I’m not being unfair, he was hard. He expected discipline, he got it. But I was grateful for it. Because I got a good education, very good. My brother went into a navy as a cadet. He went down to the Naval Base down at Flinders. He became

28:00 an officer in the regular navy. And ultimately retired as a commodore. Not so long, only a few years ago. But you know, he fell out with the public servants. He couldn’t understand their way of thinking. It wasn’t like the service way of thinking.

28:30 So that was that. Bruce gave it up.

Are there other brothers and sisters in your family?

Yes, I’ve got another brother who’s a doctor. He joined my father in partnership in the same practice. My sister was older, she was the first born. She married a bloke who didn’t go away. He was in a protected occupation.

29:00 But I don’t think Father approved altogether. Because there was only the one. He was the only male in the family who didn’t go away. My uncle, Dad’s eldest brother had won the MC [Military Cross] as a gunnery officer in the British Army. Why he joined the British Army I don’t know, but he couldn’t get away in the

29:30 Australian Army quick enough, so that was his answer.

What did you and your brothers and sisters do for fun as children in Enmore?

Played cricket in the back yard. I’ve always been a keen cricketer. And when we were children there was a reasonable back yard to play a bit of cricket in. My brother was - I always reckoned was better at cricket than I was.

30:00 I am or I was. I played football at school. I eventually made the first 15. But no, that was our normal routine.

What were the houses like in the street where you lived?

Oh pretty poor. Those were the days, and it’s hard to believe this, those were the days where there was sort of class

30:30 distinction. I wasn’t allowed to mix with the children on the other side of the back lane. They faced another street. That shows. I’ve always regretted that because when I joined up I was actually mixing with and in turn (UNCLEAR) return, commander in charge of the sort of person that were on the other side of the street. So

31:00 I’d have done a lot better as an officer I think. Had I done a bit more of that mixing. Dad had, never had a problem but Mother did. Mother was a country woman. Came from Cooma. And, I don’t know.

What sort of a mother was she?

Oh splendid. Yes, no I couldn’t ask for more, or better. You know I don’t …

31:30 You can imagine it took a lot out of her having a husband come back from the First World War, less than well. She was less than well and he was. And he didn’t like coming home early, I don’t think, but he had to. Or they let him out. I’ve never known the full story of that I never asked. But no

32:00 Father’s youngest brother was a specialist doctor GP [General (medical) Practitioner], no not a GP, an obstetrician, at PA [Princess Alexandra Hospital]. And he specialised at, as an obstetrician and eventually went over to London. Put himself, as a higher degree over in England.

32:30 Liverpool. And that was that. He got sunk in a ship in the Irish Sea but I don’t know what… he got out of it I mean, he paddled his way home, to Ireland. That wasn’t home but he was…

33:00 We were brought up as a fairly strong Presbyterian background and that didn’t do us any harm.

How was your father’s health affected by the war?

Badly I’d say, I never knew. I never really realised, but I’d like - I wouldn’t like to talk too much about that. It was a difficult

33:30 health situation.

You mentioned your mother must’ve had a hard time getting on.

Yes she did.

How did she provide for you, what sort of things did she provide for the family?

Oh she’d - normal mother. There wasn’t any shortage in the house, in the way of housekeeping and that sort of thing. No, we were always adequately provided for. I remember one day,

34:00 must’ve been dinner time I suppose. I was, we were sitting, there was a debate as to whether Dad could afford me an overcoat ‘cause it was cold going out to Scots in July. And, Mother said we ought to buy Alan an over coat and I wanted a leather one, you know, those leather coats? And he wouldn’t

34:30 let me have one. Had to have a blue one, a blue gabardine. So, blue gabardine it was. I’m glad now, I don’t like those leather things one bit.

What were your ambitions as a young school boy?

To be a lawyer.

Where did that come from do you think?

My grandfather. He was a Queen’s Counsel. No doubt about that. And my great grandfather was a King’s Counsel. He’d been a member of parliament for the North Shore.

35:00 And that was that. It wasn’t an if or a but, that was what was going to be. They had a house on the highway at Wahroonga, near Pearce’s Corner. It’s now Manor House or, yes I think so. I think it is still Manor House. Like this, a place like this. But, can’t do much about that.

35:30 We lost it during the war due to land tax, that sort of thing.

With that in mind what subjects did you enjoy at school?

History, geography, the sciences, maths, Latin, I enjoyed Latin. I reckon Latin ought to be taught to every kid.

What about subjects you didn’t like? Were there any?

36:00 I liked school. I wasn’t upset with school. But I enjoyed my school life.

What was Scots like in those day?

Oh, a good school. Strongly disciplined. And I was proud to be there. Or proud to have been a member of it. And my, see we’re not a Scots family,

36:30 my family went to Knox. We couldn’t do anything about that, because Bellevue Hill was a hell of a long way from Wahroonga.

What sort of discipline did they instil in you? Can you give some examples of the discipline at school?

Oh, well I was a school prefect and I was part of the disciplinary process. You know, one of those obnoxious 16 year olds.

37:00 Yeah, no I don’t think I did a bad job. I did my best. I was a border for the last two years. I was in a house; I was captain of the house eventually. And I was deputy, I was deputy head prefect and, deputy head prefect and deputy. I was captain of the school, deputy captain of the school.

37:30 How were you involved in the disciplinary processes as a prefect?

Oh. You’ve probably seen the way that prefects behave. Sort of getting people into line for assembly and all that sort of thing. It’s much the same as it is now.

How did you take to leadership roles

38:00 at school? You mentioned you were deputy captain?

Yeah. I took to it alright. Whether it took to me I don’t know. I didn’t, I don’t think it did me any good as some of my friends. I think they used to think I was bit up, a bit uppity. I probably was. I think I was.

When did you first join the cadets or the university

38:30 regiment? What was your first introduction to military style discipline?

In the school cadet corps we had a very good cadet corps and that was my introduction to military disciplines. And I am alive no doubt about it, meaning that if I didn’t go out to, on the death march from Sandakan, because I was an officer. And I was an officer

39:00 because I had been trained as a cadet officer at school. And that went to my school, my school training as a cadet officer. And it all began back there as a corporal in the cadets and doing junior leaders there. I can’t say when it began but I enjoyed my military training at school in cadets. I’ve got

39:30 a lot of time for school cadets ‘cause they get hold of you at an early age, an impressionable age. It’s a nice tidying up influence.

How important was Empire to you in those days?

Oh gosh. Very. It was to most of us, yes. I think that’s right. I mean we could see, looking back over at Europe we could see Hitler 40:00 sort of taking over and none of us liked it. We were all terrified. It was the last thing we wanted. And if it wasn’t Hitler it was Mussolini. And if it wasn’t Hitler and Mussolini it was Spain. But, you name it, everything was going wrong. So everything was going wrong, everything’s going wrong now in the Middle East.

Tape 2

00:39 Alan well I’d like to pick up your story. I don’t want to spend too much time on training but we do need to hear a little bit about your training days.

My what?

Your training. First of all I’m wondering whether there’s a story from the Sydney University Regiment you’d

01:00 like to share with us before you joined?

Yes I have a very good friend in the - he was sergeant major and I was a mere private, very humble private. And I joined his company because he was a friend and I thought I’m going to have a bit of a (UNCLEAR) as sergeant major, might as well have him. I wasn’t

01:30 wrong. He did look after me but I looked after him. And I reckon at one stage in Menangle camp I was his permanent orderly corporal. Means it’s, he’s the, he does all the running around for, orderly corporal does all the running around. Was a certain amount of rank up but not much. You can get into an awful lot of trouble if your a corporal.

02:00 It’s a difficult job. Yeah. Less said the better. No, he made a good friend of mine until he died not very long ago. He was in Kuching with me.

And what was his name?

Mosher. M.O.S.H.E.R. He figures in one of these books. Yeah. Imelda, my sister’s alive and she keeps in touch with the 18th Battalion.

02:30 I’m wondering, not everybody - not all the students at the university would have joined the regiment.

No.

I’m just wondering, did it set you apart do you think from other students?

Oh, I don’t think so. We did our bit according to our own lights. It’s the same thing in, this is one thing about

03:00 World War II. It was different from World War I. We didn’t look down on the people who didn’t return, didn’t enlist. There were no white feathers in World War II whereas there were plenty of white feathers in World War One. And they distributed them freely after World War I, which was a bad show I think. Very anti-social.

03:30 Well you’ve talked a little bit to Chris [interviewer] about why you decided to enlist in the AIF. In some respects it was a natural progression from the Sydney University…

It was a natural progression for anybody there who had any pride in the community, in his community and his civil position. I mean position of the community in which he was in. You just had to do it.

04:00 It was as simple as that. Particularly in a family like mine.

Okay Alan we were just talking about the idea that it was a natural progression for you to go from the Sydney University Regiment into the AIF. I’m wondering, really though did you join up with Mosher?

No he was, he wasn’t at Scots with me.

04:30 No, he was at his own school wherever that was, I don’t know.

Well can you tell me a bit more about the day that you enlisted in the AIF?

It was late one afternoon or early evening. And we went there, a couple of us went down there together. Then again everybody was doing it. Everybody was joining up. Joining up SUR, joining up (UNCLEAR) And so we got into a queue. Which queue are you going in?

05:00 I’ll go that queue. Just as strange as that. I tell you I’m dead lucky. I had very good friends. So pick your friends I think.

And can you remember the date? The dates. That’s a good question.

05:30 I’d say it was sometime in February, ’41. ’40, have to be ’40.

We’ll just to back track a minute - the day that Menzies declared that Australia was at war?

Yes. Oh well, that was another progression, natural progression. He had

06:00 Sir John Carrick who was a senator here, Senator Carrick, very good friend of mine. But he, he was a sergeant and I was a corporal. And we were in charge of, I think six men doing what they call in those days, (UNCLEAR) point duty. In other words we were looking after

06:30 an oil depot down at Balmain. That was six days prior to war. And eventually, war was declared down at, down at Balmain. And the very night, Sunday night it was, that Menzies - war was declared in England. We were

07:00 sitting on a wharf, we’d been going all night. We were sitting on a wharf in Balmain and, we had nothing else to do except rest. But, we were there doing nothing but resting and Menzies came on. He said, “It’s my reluctant

07:30 duty to have to inform you that Britain has declared war on Germany and as a result, because Britain’s declared war, Australia is at war.” And that’s how it all happened. Just like that. Bob’s your uncle.

Well you’ve talked a little bit about your sense of duty, but I’m just wondering in what way did you feel

08:00 like the war in Europe was Australia’s war?

That’s a good question. We were part of the general scene of belonging to the British Empire. We had the same Queen, we still have. And it didn’t seem to us then to be any question that we would remain it, so that was it.

08:30 No, no I don’t think we questioned it. I remember having a holiday in Leura with a friend, who were friends of mine, in the week before war was declared and a week before that event happened, Bob knew nothing about it. He was at Scots with me. Peter Royal. And so, his father was a very well known orthopaedic surgeon in the city.

09:00 Like that.

Well going back to when you enlisted in early 1940, can you tell me - you’d already been in the University Regiment and at school cadets. So you were quite military orientated yourself.

09:30 What did you learn in training?

Oh discipline. Do as you’re told and shut up. No seriously, yes, it was like that. Yeah. Count yourself lucky that you, you know, you’ve got a force behind you.

10:00 Well can you just take me through the first camp that you went to and what happened?

That’d be going back to my school days. That’d be in the school …

No I’m talking about when you joined the AIF?

Oh, that was in a cadet unit, in a junior leaders course I joined. I went straight into the

10:30 junior leaders course at Wallgrove. That was my introduction to the AIF. And that was enough. I carried a rank with me. There again, I was lucky. I was lucky all the way through.

Why do you say that?

Well, I didn’t have to work for it. Other blokes, very good blokes started off as a private

11:00 and earned their commission the hard way. And that’s how they did it, they were good officers. And they showed that in competition with other good men. No, there’s been a lot of criticism of the officers of the 8th Division by people like Lynette Silver.

11:30 Now at times she can drive me mad, you know. You do? Yeah, she’s a very good research historian but sometimes she goes overboard. Her book on Sandakan just goes too far.

Well, perhaps we can come back and talk about that a bit later.

Yeah, maybe.

12:00 But just …

I want to say this now before you get away with it. She did a very good job and work on that book, that magnificent book of record. If you want any information regarding people in Sandakan you go there. But Don Wall opened it all up in his book, “The Last Night”. Now I won’t, 12:30 I don’t want to denigrate his work. She doesn’t acknowledge him which is very naughty of her. As she must have borrowed an awful lot of his work without acknowledgement. You’d better not write that. That’s libellous. Yep, it is.

Well going back to your training

13:00 I understand that you were at Wallgrove and then Ingleburn.

Yes.

Can you just tell me what you did at both of those camps?

A lot more foot drill, gun drill, you know. Looking after machine gun, rifle drill, bayonet training. Oh, I don’t know. You name it we did it. Rifle range work, which

13:30 drove me around the billy because I was a very bad shot. I couldn’t shoot straight.

Did that worry you?

Oh, it did a bit. I liked to be able to do things well when I do them. And I wasn’t a good shot. No. Can’t claim that amongst my credits.

What were you good at?

Oh a fair cricketer.

14:00 Fair footballer. Leave it at that. I was good at school. I said I was Dux. I don’t think I was bad as a school prefect. Well not head prefect - well whatever it was. Deputy head prefect.

And when did you join your battalion?

Where?

14:30 Where?

Where? At Wallgrove it joined us, we were in camp there. And it came down from Tamworth by train, all 700 of them. And that was quite an experience, meeting those troops on that cold wintery morning. Ooh.

And what do you think the difference was between the city boys and the country

15:00 boys?

Ooh, it’s hard to tell. The city boys were oh pretty, they could be devious. They didn’t intend to be. And the country boys were pretty straight forward, straight down the line. I love the country boys, I think they’re great. I hope they liked me. Hope so. I mean

15:30 you’ve got to be straight with them. Yep.

Do you need to stop and have a sip of water?

No, it’s alright, I’ve just finished.

I’m just wondering how the country and the city boys mixed with each other.

Oh well,

16:00 Australians are good mates wherever they come from. And I don’t think background matters a great deal. You can go to - I can go to a high school I’m certain.

And how do you think you managed establishing your position of rank?

How did I what?

16:30 Well how did you establish your relationship with the troops given that you were an officer?

Well, start with being fair. I remember my uncle who was in the First World War and he was a major, acting major. And he said, “Oh can I give you some advice before you go? Always be fair with your troops. And they’ll be fair with you.” I never forgot that advice.

17:00 I hope. I hope I didn’t. But I might have, I might’ve been guilty but I hope not. And they, you know, they were good to me, they still are. I have a lot of very good friends. We meet regularly down at Lane Cove Park each month. But, only they can tell you how I’ve behaved.

And did you have any

17:30 trouble with discipline during your training days?

Did I have any trouble? Not serious difficulties, no. You work at it differently. Life’s not meant to be easy. I think it was Fraser who said that wasn’t it? Malcolm Fraser.

And after Ingleburn where did you battalion go?

Bathurst. That was an interesting story.

18:00 We were supposed to be going to camp over the mountains by foot. But (UNCLEAR) had marched over the divide on foot and worn their boots out before they got there. You may have heard this story. So they wouldn’t let us try it, thank God. So we weren’t allowed to, we went by train.

18:30 Thank goodness and, so we trained in that beautiful country just north east of Bathurst. Oh no, it was beautiful country to train in. Lovely, lovely country generally. I loved Bathurst. And we left there on the [HMS] Queen Mary on February the 2nd. That’s right.

19:00 Queen Mary’s a terrific ship.

Well just before we talk about the Queen Mary I’m wondering how important was it to be, I guess, really fit when you were in the AIF?

Oh, very important. No doubt about that, we were very fit, we were a very fit fighting force. And well trained. But when we, when we got overseas

19:30 we had to retrain for jungle training, which was rather different.

Well before embarkation I’m wondering was there a word, like a buzz in your battalion about where you were hoping to go?

Oh, lots of buzzes, the army’s full of buzzes. Yes, we didn’t know where we were going. But in the

20:00 convoy that went down to Sydney Harbour one Tuesday morning I suppose, we had three large ships, four large ships. True to the Queen Mary, the [SS] Aquitania, [SS] Mauritania and [SS] Ile de France. So, we got down eventually around, around the Bay of Biscay, not the Bay of Biscay,

20:30 Australian, the Bight, and after a day or two lying off, off Perth. We couldn’t go in, the Queen Mary was too big. But we eventually set sail again, there were four of us in a convoy. Four ships. Four very large ships. And north

21:00 east, no north west, north west that’s right, was Queen Mary. Behind us south east was one of the others, Mauritania I suppose and then another one abreast of it and another one up alongside it. And suddenly the power went on on Mary and gee it was a powerful ship.

21:30 And turned around virtually on sixpence, and it went up like that behind the ship that was, that had been - excuse me - had been behind us. And the troops on that other ship were cheering and waving goodbye or you know, ‘Maori’s Farewell’ sort of stuff. Plenty of that. Across the

22:00 stern of the other two ships and up alongside them and, we sang to each other and eventually went north east to Singapore. It was, it must have been somewhere near the Cocos Islands. God knows where.

What were you singing?

What were we singing? ‘Maori’s Farewell’ mainly. Yeah. We didn’t, I don’t think we stopped to think what

22:30 we were singing.

And where were you hoping to go?

Oh, well we joined the AIF, we were going where the AIF sent us, which really meant Egypt. Palestine. You name it, we were going. We certainly weren’t going to Singapore, that wasn’t the plan. Not our plan anyhow. So it was the army’s plan.

23:00 And for the whole time that we were in Singapore or Malaya, we were looking over our shoulder at what was going on in the other parts, the other wars. And right up to, oh right up to the time that Japan came into the war, there were plans still afoot to move us alongside the 9 Div. It didn’t happen.

Well when

23:30 did you get the news that you were confirmed to go to Singapore.

Oh, when we were at sea. Yeah, that’s where we were going. They issued you with your tropical clothing. That was the signal. There was no other warning. At least not that I remember.

Do you remember how you reacted to that news?

24:00 Disappointment. I think. I think we were disappointed. Still excited because we were going to a place that we hadn’t expected to go. None of us had been there before so, anything that was new, we’d take what came. There’s a lot of fatalism in an army, you’ve got to be, can’t be otherwise. And

24:30 what was your rank at this point of time?

Oh sub lieutenant. Lieutenant. I’m the senior. I think I jokingly described myself as the most senior sub lieutenant in the Australian Army. I joined up at cadets as an officer. Lieutenant. And I came out five years later the same rank. Nothing I could do about it.

25:00 So nobody wanted me. That’s not quite true but, I had had certain postings to other positions like company secretary command in particular, was one job I had for a while. That was quite a good job, it’s easy. You’ve got nothing to do.

25:30 I’m just wondering whether you were able to get amongst your troops on the Queen Mary on the way over and talk to the troops?

Oh, we did oh yes. We were not standoffish. Australian officers are not standoffish. But on the other hand we did have, we had comforts that they didn’t have, no doubt about that.

26:00 I’ve got to be honest. We had better travelling experience than, comforts, than they did.

Is that with respect to food or just general?

General. Like here. This is a comfortable nursing home. Nothing I can do about it.

26:30 Not my doing.

And where did the Queen Mary arrive?

Where? In Singapore. Sembawang, what’s the name of the place? Sembawang I think. I think that’s where, that’s what it’s called, the dock, the naval dock. Naval, naval base. That’ll do me.

What were your

27:00 first impressions?

I don’t know. Gee, isn’t this big. It was big. Yeah. It was big. But there was no, no guts in it. You know what I mean by that?

What do you mean?

Well, for every fighting man there are about 15 bench sitters.

27:30 And you can’t, you can’t win a war with bench sitters. That’s what I mean. Just like that. That’s why we were beaten. Yeah. Sad, Singapore was a sad case.

And where did your battalion go?

Where did we go?

28:00 We went up to, up to Sembawang, sorry up the coast, up the main peninsula, Malay Peninsula to Senggarang, across the coast, across to the coast of the Malacca Straits and then finally to

28:30 Port Dickson. It was a very nice spot. Very nice indeed. Spent a month there in the Malaya regimental barracks. Local unit and they did themselves very well indeed. Then after a month we went back to Senggarang and swapped around with one of their other battalions and then back to, after a month, back to

29:00 Senggarang and so on, back to Port Dickson. So it was three postings in that area. And we did them all. We were doing jungle training in the meantime. Jungle training and other sorts of training.

We’ve mentioned that you had no jungle preparation in Australia before

29:30 you left.

No, that’s right. Well, virtually none. No none, no.

What was involved in your jungle training once you got to Malaya?

Being handed a compass and told to take your troops in that direction and then come back again onto the road and you should find yourself, if you follow the compass bearings you’ve been given, you should find yourself back on this road about a mile up

30:00 the road. Well we were about half a mile out I suppose. The first time. That’s hard work ‘cause you can’t see any, you can’t see any distance at all. You ever done it, you ever been in the jungle? No, I don’t recommend it, but still, it’s interesting.

Well what did you find was the most difficult 30:30 aspect of it?

The most what?

What did you find most difficult about your jungle training?

Oh, just that I think, maintaining a sense of direction. You know, I think that’s probably right. It’s hard work bashing your way. Yeah.

And had you, by

31:00 this time, had you received training in tactics and strategies.

Oh yes, all the time. That was constantly…we concentrated on that. You got minor, minor tactical work all the time.

And where did you receive most of that kind of training?

Oh, in Ingleburn I suppose. Bathurst.

31:30 Bathurst was a good training ground. I liked Bathurst I enjoyed it.

What was good about it?

Oh, good open, open air work. We didn’t get lost, well not very often anyhow.

Well you’ve mentioned that the 8th Division was a very good fighting

32:00 division.

Yes.

Can you tell me a bit more about how prepared you felt to fight in the jungle after you’d had your jungle training in Malaya?

How do you mean?

Well, why did you feel like that you were prepared to fight in the jungle?

Well, I don’t think we ever felt we were well prepared for the

32:30 jungle. But we learnt the hard way. We got lost occasionally. But too bad, had to find your way out. You did too. That’s the best way to learn. Otherwise you went about it the hard way, which is getting lost and working it out. Oh no.

33:00 And what did you understand to be your battalion’s role at this point in time?

Oh, part of it, part of a professional unit. I mean there were three units in the division. 22nd Brigade. And then we were eventually joined by the other two divisions, other two battalions, three battalions. And

33:30 eventually a third. The 33rd Battalion. 29th Battalion. And so 27th Brigade was gradually built up. It was a good unit, it was a good division. Yeah.

And

34:00 how long did your jungle training go on for?

Never stopped, you were always learning. Yes, you never stopped learning. Yeah, sorry that’s true, I’m not being smart.

And

34:30 what opportunities did you get for rest during this time?

For rest we had, we weren’t starved for leave, no way. I remember we, I think I had two lots of leave of a week each in Singapore from either Senggarang or from Port Dickson and that was enjoyable.

35:00 Mm, I think that’s right. Yeah. At weekends we’d go down to, to Malacca for the day or, whatever. No I was never, never starved for leave. I always felt like I could take it, get it. Didn’t take it. Yeah.

35:30 And what would you do on a typical day off?

Join up with some other people. And, from Port Dickson we’d go down to Malacca often. And I remember one day, it might have been my 21st birthday. I think I might be right.

36:00 Sitting in a back of a powerful old V8 Ford. The driver was a sheik and did he drive fast. He believed in it and I had two big blokes, three big blokes sitting in the back seat and I’m sitting in the front. And suddenly this great big bulky bloke from Tinggi a tin miner singing “Nearer my God to Thee”. 36:30 The roads twisting and turning and, I thought, gees does he really mean it?

Well, what was the general mood do you think in Singapore?

Mood? Oh acceptance. I don’t think

37:00 you could do anything else but accept it. Nothing you can do about it. I mean it’s no good kicking against the (UNCLEAR) it’s not going to get you anywhere. Oh no, we were good troops. We accepted what we were doing. I think we were good troops.

And did you have much contact with any of the local population when you were on leave?

37:30 Oh, some of us did, some of us didn’t. I wouldn’t say I had a lot. But some of them did, some of them quite a lot. And a lot of contact with Chinese population. A lot of us earned, carried a lot of respect for the Chinese in Malaya. They were very brave people. They got

38:00 a tremendous amount of hard, cruel treatment at the hands of the Japs. And the story of Sandakan, oh Sandakan is one of brutality. As it is at Nanking in China. When we talk about the rape of Sandakan we have to be careful

38:30 we’re not overdoing it. We, we’re apt to say it was, you know, the Australians were sorted out, they weren’t. Nanking was sorted out. They sorted us out from the Chinese. Yeah. I mean two thousand, seven hundred

39:00 troops was a lot of people to lose in the one action ‘cause that’s what it amounted to. Only six survived.

Yeah it is …

Oh dreadful. Yeah.

Tape 3

00:47 What was your role as a subordinate within, within your battalion at that time?

Oh, just a general duties officer.

01:00 Yeah, that’s about it. It’s a very mixed up role. Nothing you can do about it you just take orders and do it. Do your duties, duty days, ordinary officer and that sort of thing.

Can you give us an example of some of the duties you did during the time in Malaya before the invasion?

Sorry. Corporal ... Not corporal. Sorry I’m not ...

01:30 The Oxford change of the guard. ordinary officer, which means you’re everybody’s dog’s body. No, I was an ordinary platoon commander. I was assistant to the company commander, to do what he wanted, what he needed doing or needed me to do.

02:00 And just generally being competent I think ... I hope.

What was your company and what were they doing?

C Company, 15th Platoon. That was about it. We were training. It’s very hard to sort of answer that question. Sorry, I can’t answer that question.

02:30 Where were you based after ... You mentioned three different points you were, you were moving between. Were they all the same? How did they differ? What were the differences between those ...?

Well it most ...

03:00 At Ingleburn we were in, under canvas, the officers weren’t. The men were under canvas. Ah now ... And when we got to Bathurst we were in wooden framed ...

03:30 And when we got to, when we got to, yeah, and when we got to Ingleburn we were in wooden huts and also Bathurst. Bathurst was inclined to be hot, was hot, yeah. I think ...

Tell us where you were and what was the first news you got

04:00 of the Japanese invasion?

I haven’t got any clear recollection of a particular incident of the Japanese invasion. I remember when the war stopped very clearly but ah ... I remember the CO of the camp in Kuching coming to 04:30 the top of our hut, something he very rarely did, and said, “I’ve got to tell you gentlemen, the war is over.” And that was, that was at Kuching, fifteenth of August. But we knew already, we already knew, the camp wireless had told us.

05:00 We’ll talk about that ... Actually we’ll come back to that on Wednesday, come back to the end of the war. Just ... What memories do you have of the period leading up to the Singapore’s capture and the fighting that went on?

I was in hospital when the war finished. I’d been in hospital since the Friday – Friday, Saturday, Sunday. I couldn’t

05:30 walk. My neighbour Gordon Solomon, a very good friend of mine eventually, he couldn’t walk so, you know, we were a fine couple. But we were looked after by some nurses.

Can you take us through the action in which you got wounded and tell us how that happened?

Yes, let me see it was Sunday night

06:00 and we’d been, we’d had everything bombed out of us during the day, shelled at us, I won’t use the language I often do, ah it was bad, very bad. And eventually we made our way onto Bukit Timah Road, which was the main road dividing

06:30 Singapore to East and West. But there was nothing I could do about that and about midday, a bit later than midday but not much, the, twenty-seven Japanese bombers, light bombers came over head and bombed us. And I got down into a big, big trench. Have you been into Singapore?

07:00 Oh well, in those ... Up there you’ve got big equatorial rains, you’ll find that they’ve got big equatorial drains and I clambered along the side of one, one drain and clung to the side of it. But it wasn’t

07:30 bad, I mean it gave me some shelter but it wasn’t enough, but I got quite a lot of shelter from that. But the troops wanted me to ... Well I went, I did take some medical help there but I had to go back to, back ...

08:00 Actually I went to a British camp and went to, eventually went to an Australian camp, Australian General Hospital right on the waterfront at Singapore itself, for which I was grateful. And eventually on

08:30 Friday we were told that the troops, the fighting troops were pulled in behind us and there was nothing we could do about it, we had to stay where we were. No fighting, no mucking around just do it, and that’s all we could do. I’m trying to think what the name of the place was – Seboan. No I don’t think that’s right.

09:00 No ...

When these planes came over tell me what was going on at the time?

Trying to find my company headquarters, I was lost. I didn’t know where my company commander was. I certainly didn’t know where my battalion commander was and I had a certain amount of troops under my command and I wanted ...

09:30 I didn’t know what to do with them. We were in complete chaos. I wasn’t too proud of it but there was nothing I could do. These troops I had with me were under my command and they were good.

What did you know about where the Japanese were or where ...?

They were up on the hill above me. But we did try to go up that hill and I still remember looking

10:00 down at my hand and thinking gosh this is stupid, the only weapon I had was a pistol and there we were, I was surrounded by people with fixed bayonets going up the hill – it was stupid but there was nothing I could do about it. I didn’t have a bayonet, I didn’t have a rifle. Anyhow, we kept going and the boy said, “Look up there, in the trees, there are Japs

10:30 sniping at us.” Well, that was suicidal. Nothing we could do about that either so back we went down the hill again to the road which wasn’t, we weren’t too proud of that. So that’s when we got into the ditch, well alongside the ditch.

Can you tell us again about the moment where you became wounded?

I knew I’d been slugged in the leg, that was all.

11:00 What did you see, where it had come from or what was happening around you at that time?

Good question. I couldn’t see very much, I suppose it was daylight, I remember it was the middle of the day, quite a fine day. No I had no, I had no reaction at all to where I was except I was there, I was in Bukit Timah, I knew I was in Bukit Timah.

11:30 And what happened to your leg?

Well, it healed itself gradually. What about the wound ... How severe was the wound to begin with, at the time you injured?

There was a lot of pus in it, it developed a lot of pus. I got pus in my hip eventually, that’s why

12:00 I’m in hospital now.

How long was it before you could get medical attention?

A couple of hours. Oh no, I was looked after all right. I have no complaint about that. The Australian medicos were good. They were the heroes of the war really.

12:30 What was the scene like in the hospital, in the days you spent there?

I can’t recall that. There was nothing chaotic about it, it was just what you’d expect.

And what happened then when news of the ...?

You just stayed there. It’s all you could do.

Is that where you were when the

13:00 fighting stopped?

Yes.

Can you tell us about that day and what happened?

Oh, that’s a good question isn’t it? It was night when the fighting stopped and we just lay there. Eventually the Japs came through on the Monday morning. Of course, it was a Sunday night when the Japs came through, when the surrender occurred. We only knew it had happened ...

13:30 I think that’s right.

What happened in the hospital when the fighting stopped?

Nothing in our hospital. In some of the others there was chaos, murder.

How were you getting news about what was going on?

Oh, it was coming through ... It’s amazing the way the news spreads when an army’s in retreat.

14:00 What was the news that you got at that time?

Oh, I’ve forgotten. Not particularly good. There’s a photograph somewhere ...

14:30 When did the Japanese first come and take control of the hospital and what happened then?

Oh, they just walked through and made their presence seen and walked out again. There was no drama attached to it.

15:00 How did you feel at this time knowing that you had essentially become prisoners?

Oh, pretty lousy but there was nothing we could do about it, we just lay there. Fortunately they didn’t do anything to us or with us.

What did you know about the Japanese and their ...?

Fortunately nothing, that’s true, I didn’t know anything about the rape of the hospital in another part of Singapore,

15:30 which wasn’t too good. They murdered people in their beds.

It’s a difficult question, considering what you went through after that, but at that moment with all the ignorance that you had what did you expect? What did you think was going to happen?

I don’t know. I have no recollection of that. Sorry.

That’s alright, it’s a very long time ago

16:00 it’s a difficult question to answer.

Yes, yes it is.

What happened then to the hospital in the due course of time?

What happened?

After the Japanese walked through, after the fighting had stopped?

Good question but I can’t answer it. It became ... It was a high school ... It became a high school. You were moved to Selarang shortly after that?

Yes by taxi ...

16:30 by ambulance.

Let’s stop there for the day.

Tape 4

00:40 The other day when you’re were talking to us you told us the story of how you got wounded, um I’m just wondering before we go on to talk about being a prisoner is there any other stories or moments that stand out for you from your fighting

01:00 actions in Malaya?

Not particularly. It was all very unsatisfactory. We didn’t need where we were, where we stood. It was... If you wanted to describe the defence of Singapore it was almost non-existent. And I think I’d better leave it at that. There were too many, too many

01:30 people doing too few jobs or the other way around, too many jobs going for too few people. Oh no, it was not a good set up – let’s leave it at that. I think the story’s been well written, all told.

I was just wondering, because you mentioned the other day that the 8th Division and indeed your battalion was a good fighting unit.

02:00 It was a good fighting unit.

Can you tell us a bit more about that?

Well I wasn’t ... You see I was wounded on a Tuesday and the surrender came along on the Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And so I didn’t have much contact with the fighting on the Island. I’d had my Sunday night, Monday. Monday was spent in retreat trying to sort ourselves out down on the, oh

02:30 on the island, on the straits if you like, straits of ? And getting lost. I mean we knew where we were roughly, but only roughly. And I was looking for battalion headquarters and I didn’t find them. I’d been back to find them, I think I have. Yeah, not very satisfactory. Rather bad as a matter of fact.

03:00 I think we’ll leave it at that.

Well it’s pretty easy to get lost in a jungle when ...

Well it wasn’t jungle, it was mainly rubber. Singapore Island is covered with rubber, that’s its main, you know it’s main product. I think that’s fair. It’s very easy to be unfair because you get yourself

03:30 carried away with your own emotions. And I’ve got to be careful I don’t do that because that’s not fair, not fair to anybody, including myself.

Well you told us the story of how you got wounded and were in hospital when the surrender…

Yes.

How were you moved from the hospital to

04:00 ah Changi?

Ambulance, Army Ambulance. Oh no, I was well looked after there, the medical corps was good, it was under control.

And can you describe where you were put?

Where we were put? We were put in this high school. And I haven’t, sorry I haven’t applied my mind to it but I can’t think what it was called.

04:30 Not Karangi. Some name like that. It was not far from the old airport before Changi. I say the old airport deliberately because it was the principal, principal civil airport of Singapore Island.

And what do you remember from your time there?

What do I remember there? Oh just being

05:00 bored stiff. Nothing much else. I had some friends with me. Gordon Solomon for example was one. He’s since dead, died oh, a few years back. I can’t remember much more.

Was it a big building? What was the building like? Yes, it was a three storey building really. Oh yes, it wasn’t a hut or anything like that.

05:30 Oh no, we were comfortable and we were clean and that’s about it. The nurses were good. The Australian nurses were very good. I don’t want to draw a distinction there, they were good.

And what did you know of where ... Because you had been wounded and separated from your own battalion, how did you keep up with what was happening to them?

I didn’t,

06:00 I didn’t know what was going on. Eventually the officers came through and that’s what I said, they were advised that, I think it was the CO of the hospital, a medical doctor said the Japanese will come through, we’ve surrendered. Don’t do anything stupid and

06:30 that was a warning to be careful because there had already been a massacre in one of the hospitals, thank you very much, it was a very unpleasant, brutal thing. I’ve just forgotten the name of the hospital but it’s well known.

Well emotions run very high when there’s a surrender after a conflict. What were you feeling at that time?

07:00 Pretty emotional, pretty upset, hopeless. I suppose that’s fair.

And when the word came not to do anything stupid did you have thoughts of ...?

No, I had a very sore leg. I was in the bed. I was in bed, there’s nothing I could have done. Even if somebody had said get up and walk,

07:30 you know. And they’d said like, of Christ, take your bed ... The story of Christ telling somebody to get up. It might have worked but I don’t think so. No I don’t think so. I’m a bit like it now, I can’t walk. Silly, it sounds almost sacrilegious doesn’t it but it’s not.

08:00 I’m wondering if you ... or how worried you were about what might happen to you?

Oh, we were committed to what we were committed to. You couldn’t be too worried about what might happen to us. We were likely to be shot down or cut down or, or killed or shot or ... I mean it was a war, it was a nasty war. We’d been

08:30 fighting ever since we’d left Mersing, Nithsdale but there wasn’t anything we could about that. I mean after all, I was only a platoon commander, we were under command so we had to trust in, in the events as they unfold, as they unfolded and they did, they did unfold. But it was a very good unit I was in. I was in the

09:00 rear guards coming down the main road from, down through Mersing, down to a place called Kota Tinggi and then on down to Johor Bahru Ah, there wasn’t anything ... I mean I was in a truck, sitting up the front of a truck and that was about all I could do. I had a ...

09:30 and a truck full of troops behind me. But that was all. They were good troops, they were very good troops, well trained and well disciplined and doing what we were told to do, which wasn’t, wasn’t you know, too good but nothing we could do about that. I didn’t see any of the rubbish that’s been written about the

10:00 troops, Australian troops on Singapore panicking or mutinying or whatever it’s, or whatever word you like to put on it. I didn’t see any of that thank goodness, it was all pretty disgraceful.

Well I’m wondering um if you had as platoon commander ...

If I had what?

Well you were platoon commander. I’m wondering if you had any incidents of discipline

10:30 problems?

No, no I don’t recall any of that. I’m really fairly certain I didn’t see any of it. I mean, after all it was only from say two o’clock in the afternoon of Tuesday through to evening on Tuesday that I had any contact with the war at all, in that period, so you know I can’t,

11:00 nothing I can add to it. Pretty dumb old war. Not that I was looking for anything more vicious. Of course we didn’t know, we didn’t know what lay in front of us, we didn’t know what the Japs were going to get up to. We just didn’t like the Japs and they didn’t like us so ... Although later on we were told

11:30 we had the respect of the Japanese troops. They thought the Australian troops were the best they came up against which was, you know, very good.

When did that attitude change or when did you hear that?

That attitude? I heard that after the war I think. I think that’s fair. 12:00 They thought that the action they were forced into at Nithsdale, which was an ambush, was their hardest fighting on the, on the mainland. At least from the…? of Kuala Lumpur down. And it was a brilliant ambush. We killed the Jap, about a thousand Japs in that exercise. A lot of publicity’s

12:30 been given to the 30th Battalion’s Jamas action. They only lost thirty men, we lost, we lost ninety. Not that that’s a measure of success, rather the reverse. But we were very proud of ourselves, we wiped a whole force of Japanese. And they had ah ...

13:00 something we would never do ... they came down the highway in front of us right into our machine gun positions and the machine gun, our machine guns just mowed them down. And our machine guns were mounted on carriers. And Fred Evans, the carrier, platoon commander was a very good soldier and he wiped a lot of them out.

13:30 No, no they were good troops. And they don’t deserve the reputation ... There’s been nothing, nothing better than POWs or POWs in waiting, no.

Well how long did you stay in the hospital?

Only about ten days. I think we went out there about Friday of

14:00 the following week. Yeah, I think so I think it would be about Friday. We went out to Selarang, about, about the Friday I think. Time doesn’t really matter very much to me there. I suppose that’s fair. And I went into hospital. It doesn’t sound very interesting does it? But I went into hospital and stayed there for a while.

14:30 And that’s where they did that operation on that leg. That’s quite a major operation on my leg there. Yep.

And how many months did you need to recuperate or weeks?

Oh gosh, July, July forty-

15:00 one was it, forty-two? I was discharged from there and sent back to my unit over in the lines at Selarang. And I was there about ten days and they discharged me to come off on B Force. Ah B Force was going to, we didn’t know it at the time, but it was going to Borneo, in Borneo,

15:30 Sabah. No it wasn’t known as Sabah then, it was British North Borneo. That’s how we knew it. And it’s only just recently it’s been called Sabah. We didn’t know that. Where we were going really, I mean it didn’t matter very much. Sabah’s the modern name.

So when you were discharged from hospital you were able to rejoin your unit at Selarang?

Yes.

And, and

16:00 what was the mood of your ...?

They were very glad to see me. I was flattered, I really was flattered. One of the more senior sergeants came up and said, “Alan you’ll be very glad to know that the troops are very glad too see you. Get out amongst them and talk with them.” So that was flattering and it was a very kind thing to do because your own personal morale was pretty low but you know, you weren’t

16:30 looking for trouble you were just hoping that things would work out alright. And I didn’t ... It didn’t take me very long to find out it wasn’t too bad. I mean my morale wasn’t too bad compared to the others. No, we were all right, we get on. I was very proud of the Australian troops as POWs, very proud of them indeed. I think we ought to be.

17:00 Ah, you want a personal experience. An officer went out on ... didn’t work and didn’t do pick and shovel work but they did go out in charge of working parties and that could be hard work, difficult work because you had to discipline the troops if they were not, they weren’t, ah weren’t what would you say, pulling their weight with the rest because they’d bring the wrath of the Japs down

17:30 on the whole, whole group. You might have a hundred troops with you. And ... Have you been to Selarang? There’s a picture up there in the light green book. And I said to, I was the senior soldier with them, I said to the senior NCO [Non Commissioned Officer], “We’re going to march home, we’re going back to the barracks like Australians,

18:00 like troops.” And he said, “Alright we’ll give it a go.” So we falled them in, in the true disciplinary style and got out in front of our barrack building and there’s a traditional way of dismissing of a company if you like or a battalion for that matter, and we went through the drill. And by the time we got to

18:30 that up on the verandahs, Selarang barracks are two and three storeys, I was applauded. I’ve never forgotten that. The, the place was cramped with people, with Australian troops and we got a round of applause. And it’s very nice, very good for your own morale. But you know we falled the, falled the NCOs out, used to take to them, and 19:00 a certain amount of snobbish I suppose, but not really. It was good for the troops too, they were pleased with it. So good.

Well can you just describe one of those typical working parties that you went on?

Nothing to describe about them really. You were carrying a pick or you were carrying a shovel or you were carrying both. And you went out and you dug holes for spuds

19:30 or for tapioca or whatever you were working on, or a latrine trench. There’s wasn’t much, wasn’t much to it. Pretty miserable sort of work. When you get to Sundarkin, Sandakan it’s a different story, you were working there in sandy gravel, shifting bright sand and bright, bright grit.

20:00 At one stage we were working on a hillside pulling gravel down from the top of the hill down to the bottom where there was a row of trucks and we were loading the trucks. And I say, I was half way down the hill with my shovel, we were working then, and the retched pile in front of me

20:30 never got any smaller. The bloke in front of me up that hill was making certain that while he was doing what he had to do but, ah that was it. So I was certain the bloke behind me had plenty of work to do too. And it was nasty, nasty work because you weren’t winning, you just had to keep going, keep your head going, keep going. Silly, yeah.

And

21:00 what were your captors like, the Japanese guards, what were they like, how did they treat you?

Oh pretty lousy. You see it in some of the things I’ve written about the aeroplane drill. One of the punishments was that you be stand to attention in the sun with your arms outstretched, stand to attention with your arms outstretched

21:30 like that, and stand like that for half an hour. Try it one day, it gets a bit hard. I don’t recommend it really not even as a gymnastic exercise. You, you know, you get yourself sore. I don’t do it, I’ve never done it again. It would be at least half an hour.

And who would supervise the working parties?

Oh the Japs were

22:00 wandering around all the time, they were supervising. And of course, the officers were supposed to be supervising the men, which did do to the limit of our ability. I mean we didn’t do ... We didn’t do anything more than we had to. We had to keep the peace. There was no good having a fighting exercise with Japs, that wasn’t going to get us anywhere. It may sound silly but it’s

22:30 true, it’s a question of fact. I think a lot of ... some of us used to resent it but it was just too bad, it was just what you had to do. It was the same on all the working parties. I think if you talked to somebody on the railway, in Burma you’ll find they say the same thing, you just simply had to work. And the officers had to see that there wasn’t any

23:00 bludging going on, that they could avoid. But if there was any way in which you could kick the Japs then so be it, do it.

And how would you manage to do that?

Oh, in lots of ways.

Can you give me an example?

Oh, oh sorry I can’t really. Ah ... I, I really can’t. I’d have to think about that for while.

Well maybe if you

23:30 think about it you can tell us later.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because I guess that was one of your survival mechanisms.

Yes, to keep your own pride going, which was important. Oh yes, you just had to do what you thought was the right thing in the circumstances – and most of the troops thought so too. Provided you didn’t

24:00 encourage the Japs to use the sticks on us. You see they used to use thump us, yeah that was with sticks across our shoulders, which wasn’t the best thing to endure.

And did they beat you when you were out on the working party?

Yes, that was when the beating went on.

And where would the working parties go to?

24:30 Were they, I’m wondering if they were inside the barracks or outside the barracks? Both. Working parties, particularly in Selarang, they were both inside and outside. In Sandakan working parties mainly were outside. We had our own vegetable gardens. That was, that was our saving really. We grew a thing called

25:00 kankol spinach. Ah that’s, that’s full of vitamins, very rich in vitamins. We grew tapioca plant root, which was also very rich in protein, I think protein. Chicomanis which are Vitamin C, I think. Doctors watching this will think come on Alan you’ve

25:30 forgotten, I have. It’s a tiny green leaf thing which was good for eyesight. We lost, quite a few men lost their sight or had their sight impaired. But ah ... Oh no, the circumstances varied

26:00 all the time, well from camp to camp anyhow, yeah.

And how long did you stay at Selarang altogether?

We left Selarang in July 1941. We were loaded onto the, which is spelt U...b...e, Maru, m ...a...r,

26:30 u of course the traditional way of spelling Maru. But you will find the word Ube being spelt in various ways. I’ve discovered that there was no ship on the register of shipping pre-war register of shipping called Ube, u...b...e. They were ah ... It was y...u...b...e. But ah ...

27:00 So I think that ship ought to be called the Yube, with a y sound in front of the u. So in most of the books it’s still spelt Ube but it would be better if we adopted the Yube. A bit like me with my ah Sandakan. It’s a question of getting it right by research.

27:30 Well I’m just wondering how were you general living conditions at Selarang?

Oh, oh at Selarang? Oh look there’s a photograph in that book showing typical living conditions in Selarang. If you’d like to get it down I’ll point it out to you.

I’m wondering if you could just tell me?

Oh well crowded. Mainly,

28:00 mainly timber framed structures which were made into stretches. They were ... The frame work ... People slept on probably I suppose, straw.

28:30 That’s not right but something like that anyhow. Rope. And that made some comfort. You weren’t necessarily sleeping on concrete all the time. I wasn’t sleeping on concrete. Well I had a floorboard underneath me.

29:00 I think that was right. I had a sheet. God knows where it came from, I don’t, I haven’t got a clue where it came from. Maybe two sheets, I don’t know. I know, a sheet when I got home, to get into bed with clean sheets was magnificent.

And what type of clothing did you have at this point in time?

29:30 Oh not very different from the summer clothing we wear around here, you know grey/brown khaki trousers, khaki shirt. Very dirty as a rule, or not clean anyhow. And we weren’t cold fortunately. We weren’t cold but they were cold in other parts, up in Japan for example. They would have been very cold. I don’t know

30:00 how they got on. They did somehow or a rather.

And was this the uniform, your original uniform was that what you still had or were you issued other clothes?

A bit of both. There wasn’t any issued to us. The Japs were supposed to issue clothing to us but they didn’t.

30:30 There’s basic rules, Geneva rules about that but that didn’t matter to the Japs. No. No the Japs ... The Geneva Conventions didn’t matter to the Japs.

And how easy was it to I guess maintain discipline inside Selarang?

31:00 I’m wondering if the troops got into fights with each other?

Sorry what?

I’m wondering how easy was it for you to maintain discipline within your own battalion in Selarang?

Not easy, you had always to be fair that’s the first thing. Fair, fair dinkum. Mateship. You had to help. You couldn’t afford to ah ... Well I don’t

31:30 know how you put this. You couldn’t come the high road. You had to realise that they were human beings too much like you, and would you like being treated like that, no you wouldn’t so you didn’t. No, you got it right the first time. You didn’t get a second chance.

Well I’m just wondering why would the troops be fighting with each other? What were they fighting about?

Who, the troops?

32:00 They weren’t really fighting with each other. No, I think they ah, they weren’t bad the troops, they were a pretty good group of people. Oh no, they were Australians, they were mates. I think I said yesterday that they worked together, they ate together, they slept together.

32:30 And who was your closest mate?

Oh, Gordon Solomon, a solicitor from Wellington who’s dead now. Max [?] when we got to Sandakan he slept in the bunk next door to me. He was a chartered, well has been a chartered accountant. Gordon Solomon was a solicitor in Wellington. Oh yes, I mean I had quite a few mates, I

33:00 think, that’s up to them. I did. Len [?] a barrister from ah, from Brisbane. John Roule, Sir John Roule a solicitor from Wellington, from Brisbane. We had an amazing number of people amongst the small group we were really, an amazing number of people who had decorations

33:30 of some sort – civilian decorations like knighthoods or OBEs [Order of the British Empire] that they’d collected somehow or another. It was good. They were good people, the officers in particular. Not only the officers though, they were good troops generally. Harold Singen for example, about six feet five, I think.

34:00 He was a big man, a big man in every way. He died just, not long after we got back, died of TB [tuberculosis]. He shouldn’t of. He died of TB so he should never, that was one of the casualties of the war.

Well you mentioned that one of the punishments at Selarang,

34:30 and maybe on the working parties was to be beaten and also to stand out in the sun with your arms out. What other punishments did you receive?

Oh I don’t know ... I mean I don’t like going through all that. You’d get a belt across the buttocks or across your back. I don’t think I want to go into that.

35:00 Well can you tell me how you got the news that you were going to be moved from Selarang? How did you find out?

I don’t know, just, well they came around the lines, volunteers to go on a working party, to Borneo. I think it was Borneo they told us we were going to. They didn’t always tell you where you were

35:30 going. They used to try to dress it up by saying that it was going to be better than where it was. It didn’t always turn out that way. Ask the people who went up to Burma. They were going to a place where it was nice and sunny and rosy and the food was good and light work and ... But it didn’t turn out that way. I mean the railway was a hell of a place.

36:00 They didn’t have the ultimate casualties that we did, but you know ... They didn’t actually go up and start work on the railway immediately either I understand. Still we ... That’s life.

And while you were at Selarang did you encounter any returned soldiers from the railway?

Sorry what?

I’m wondering whether while you were at Selarang did any of the troops who went up

36:30 to the railway come back while you were there?

At Selarang? I can’t remember. I’ve never thought of that. No, I can’t remember.

Well what, what did you think, I mean when you got the news that you were, they were asking for volunteers for a working party why did you think it would be

37:00 good to volunteer to go to Borneo?

I don’t know, something a bit different. Something that was better than here. Anything had to be better than Selarang. It was one step closer to home.

Sorry what was that?

It was one step closer to home. I suppose that’s one way of looking at it.

37:30 You mentioned that you, they didn’t really tell you very much about it, did you know anything about what you were, where you were going?

No. I’m certain of that. Look amongst those books there there’s a book, photographs of the Selarang Square. Would you like to get it for me and I’ll show you some photographs.

Tape 5

00:36 Can you tell us about getting onto the Ubu Maru?

Yes. It was moored alongside the wharf at Sandakan and we wondered what you know ... It was about a fifteen hundred ton coal burning ship. I think it had been used for coal,

01:00 chance it was for coal, it was very dirty, very unpleasant. And you heard about it from other people and I can’t add anything to what you’ve been told. Very crowded, very dirty and we weren’t exactly well looked after on that, I can tell you.

Well I’m sure you can add your personal perspective on what it was like to go into it so I’ll ask you a few questions about it.

01:30 Where were the prisoners put aboard the ship?

Down in the hulls. You know, you can imagine what the hulls of a cargo ship were like except they were six feet high. And you went down layer by layer and layer, and occasionally you got up for some fresh air – not very often.

02:00 And what was it like to be down there with the amount of people on board?

Pretty stinking. You couldn’t, you couldn’t get up really often. I don’t know how many times I got up – not often. You might get up at night and breathe some fresh air, clean your teeth or whatever.

02:30 Was there a difference to how the officers were housed on the ship?

No. No, we bunked down alongside the men, with the men. We were sort of in a situation where you turned over by numbers. You said to your mate I want to turn over. Oh it’s true.

How much room did you have in that hull?

Oh, enough to stretch yourself out.

03:00 That’s about right.

Who were you next to during that journey?

Oh, I’ve forgotten really I have. I don’t know ... You see we were divided up into companies and I was with C Company of B Force and that

03:30 was it, I was with them. They were my troops and so I was with them. I was second, I was company second in command. I don’t know why I got to that exalted rank but I did.

What food did they give you aboard the ship?

What food? Yellow rice, limed rice. Sticky stuff. I never want to see it again.

04:00 I haven’t either, I never have.

The other thing I imagine was very difficult on board that ship was the hygiene. Can you tell us about that?

Over the side and over the side again – there wasn’t anything else. Literally you peed over the side

04:30 and your other motions were over the side. Now let’s leave it at that. The lavatory was you’d dangle you know, you’d, you know, you were perched over the side of the ship and that was your lavatory. I remember we called into Meri which is half way between

05:00 Kuching and ah, Kuching and Singapore, yes Kuching and Singapore. But very shallow water so we were about a mile off the shore, it’s an oil port.

05:30 And I have been back there. My wife and I went there on our way down to Kuching. And then after visiting Kuching we left for Singapore, across there, and went to Laverton, no Kuching from there. Not really ... I mean Kuching’s grown a lot, so’s Sandakan, grown

06:00 a great deal.

What happened when you stopped at Meri?

Just sat. Very hot, very steamy. Very hot. Nothing else really. I think we were there thirty-six hours. I don’t know why we stopped there. There maybe have been some submarines around. 06:30 What sicknesses were taking hold of people at this stage?

Ah malaria, ah dengue, dengue fever. That was about it. That was enough. Dysentery of course. Sorry dysentery – very important.

07:00 You have to wash your hands. You learn to wash your hands before you do anything in the way of eating or drinking or using your toothbrush.

How did these illnesses affect people on board the ship?

Oh no, different to being on the shore. You just had to be very, very careful ...

07:30 yeah.

I imagine it’s impossible though to keep clean or stop touching people or even to control your bowel movements if you’re on a ship.

Yes, you’re right, absolutely, you’re dead right. But you did your best to stop from infecting other people.

08:00 For example, I had a banana every morning for breakfast and you learn to cut the top of the banana before you eat it. That goes back to those days. You know the knob at the end, you take that off, you don’t eat a whole banana. You just take, you take that top off – the root I suppose, I don’t know what it’s called but it’s the top. And I noticed this morning for some

08:30 reason or a rather I didn’t do it. You know a habit of a lifetime had disappeared. I will do it tomorrow morning.

And where does that habit come from?

There, in the POW camp. We were taught, warned by our medical people never to eat right through to the end for obvious reasons.

09:00 What happened when the Ubu Maru landed and where did it land?

In Sandakan, Sandakan in the Sandakan Harbour. Which is quite a harbour, it’s quite a good port. When we were, my wife and we were there, we flew in, there were eighteen or nineteen ships waiting to load timber to go up to Japan and the Philippines and up that way.

09:30 So you know, quite a trade out of Sandakan. It really is a crime the way they were stripping the trees. They were, and they were getting away with it too.

Can you describe the scene that met your eyes when you got off the ship?

Where?

In Sandakan.

At first we got off the Ubu Maru? Oh just a ship, just a port.

10:00 Just a port, not a very big one. Not as big as it is now, nothing like it. And of course, it was destroyed by bombing several times after we arrived there. But we put up with it. We marched out to the Eight Mile Camp the next day.

10:30 And it was quite a long march. It was up hill a lot of it. And then on .... And then we were into the camp which was a British ... The Brits had used it as a forestry training

11:00 establishment for forestry officers. So it was about ... Of course, as I say, it was at the eight mile peg and I think that’s, I can understand why. It wasn’t a bad hut, bad camp. We had timber huts. But they weren’t bad, as timber huts go.

11:30 Take us through the camp and describe as you entered what it looked like and where everything was.

Well, in the front of those books ...

Just, just ... There are other ways people can access this information but I’d love to hear it from your voice for the archive – your memories of what the camp looked like. I’ll have a look at that picture for sure.

Yeah, well you walked in ... You marched up the hill. The camp was up on the top of the hill.

12:00 And, on the right hand side as you went through, left hand side too, there were guard huts, Japanese quarters. And you walked through there and landed out on a large area, right in front of it was a huge tree. And anybody who knows Sandakan

12:30 will recognise the tree and talk about the tree – but it’s gone now, sad really, but of course there’s a landmark to us but it’s gone. And then it went on further into the camp and then, oh you went down the hill a bit and on either side of you had other huts 13:00 which the troops occupied, but they weren’t the best. They weren’t too bad, I mean I’ve seen a lot worse, thank God. No, no I’ve seen worse. They weren’t attap [matting made from coconut leaves] huts, they were straw huts but they weren’t

13:30 too bad, says me. But we had, the officers had good living quarters there, well reasonably good. I mean there was no mess hut or anything like that but that didn’t really in the long run, matter all that much. We could get by. Like going down to Lane Cove National Park for a picnic in one of those huts there.

14:00 Can you describe the officer’s huts? Were they floored, did they have anything to sleep on, what was the inside like?

Yes they divided into compartments where we ... In a compartment there were benches and you slept eight to the bench – four on one side, four on the other.

14:30 And that wasn’t uncomfortable. There’s a very big difference sleeping on weatherboard, on timber and sleeping on concrete and we, we had timber which was lucky. I think the troops had timber too. I don’t think they ... My recollection is that they didn’t, they didn’t have concrete to sleep on. I hope not, I’ve forgotten.

15:00 What were your first impressions on arriving there then? Was it the paradise you’d been promised? What was your thoughts on this new camp?

Oh, what are we in for? I don’t know. What are we in for? We’ll live today and get on with tomorrow when it dawns. You lived a day at a time, you didn’t cast your mind ahead – there’s no future in that.

15:30 A couple more things about describing the camp that I’d love to know about. How much access to water did you have?

Well, we didn’t go thirsty. There was water to drink and there was water to shower with because you’re in an equatorial area there so you didn’t have to worry too much about cleanliness or anything like that. I was clean,

16:00 I hope, I think.

What sort of shower facilities did you have?

Shower facilities? Normal cold water when we had them. It was nice to have a hot shower when we got home.

How was the camp fenced in and what was that like?

Barbed wire, six foot high barbed wire.

16:30 It was a compound, this sort of, you name it. It’s got a name. An apron, nothing much more than that. But the Japanese patrolled around it.

Were there guard towers? How did the guards ...

17:00 How did they patrol the fence line?

They kept on walking around it. Kept an eye on it, kept an eye on us hopefully.

What was surrounding the camp on the other side of the fence?

Jungle, rubber, greenery. You name it because it’s very green, very, oh I don’t know

17:30 very thick. I wouldn’t say it was the most glorious country in the world but it’s not bad.

Well when you arrived at this new area, how did the organisation of your own troops work? Who was in charge and, and ...?

Well we were divided into ...

18:00 We had a battalion structure. A battalion structure with second in command, adjutant quarter master. In other words, we were left to ourselves to administer ourselves.

18:30 And later on we were going to form ourselves into a unit which could be a fighting unit if we had to, and I became the second in command of a company, one of the company commanders – company second in command. Max was my company commander. I mentioned him the other day. Ah, well we got on very well together. But that was that. And whilst we

19:00 didn’t do any drill together or anything like that, or exercises, we did our best to look like troops. It was there that in September, ah ‘43 we formed the Aus Sandakan Association. We were coming home and this was the organisation we were going to be members of when we got home. And we’ve been, we’ve sat together. That’s what ah ... You’ve seen the,

19:30 seen reference to it in the books. But we’re dying out now. And I’ve got to pay tribute to some very brave men, like Lionel Matthews who was awarded the St Georges Cross. Dr Taylor, a local civilian doctor.

20:00 He was the link between the local Chinese and us, particularly our medical people. We wouldn’t have survived without those links, no way. There was no regular flow ... There was no regular flow of medicines. What we got we scrounged and of course,

20:30 it was very annoying to find that when the war finished the abundance of medicines in the Japanese stores. And Taylor did his best to get them into us. He did his best, that was all he could do. And he was sentenced to a dreadful jail

21:00 in Singapore, Outram Road, where a lot of them, a lot of the troops nearly perished or did perish. He didn’t, his wife, his daughter Elizabeth Moore she, she’s in there. She went up on that party – she’s a fine woman.

How was the hospital set up in Sandakan?

There? Oh just as an army hospital.

21:30 It didn’t have any, any unique features about it. There were long rows of sick people being treated for malaria or dengue or whatever. When we were sick we were underfed, naturally, that was our fate.

22:00 You mentioned links with the local people, how were the established and kept up?

By people breaking out through the wire, and particularly at night. Honestly, I can’t speak highly enough of those people who did that regularly. Not many, not many did it but enough did it to keep the place ticking over.

22:30 What would they do on a night outside the wire?

Oh, they’d arrange a rendez ... oh they’d meet at a rendezvous, prearranged. The local police were on side. There was a police unit about half a mile away from the camp gates and the officer in charge of that unit was

23:00 loyal. But you couldn’t expect too much of them, they’d lose their head, some of them did, so ... We did comparatively well, I don’t think I ought to say anything more than that, but we did. Others like Morsha, who was outside the wire quite often, they know more about it. You talk to Imelda Moshe

23:30 ah she, she can tell you more about it because her husband was in touch – her husband’s dead now – her husband was in touch with the doctors, with the, well with Chinese people. He had troops out on the aerodrome working. He was ah ... I don’t know quite what you’d call him but he was really the senior officer, the senior

24:00 Australian officer working on the drome. He had a responsible position like that and he used it, not to the pleasure of the Japs I can tell you.

What sort of things would they be able to get and bring back through the wire?

Oh, Quinine. Various types of anti-malarial drugs. Anti-dysentery things. Anything that was going.

24:30 Anaesthetic, morphia, that’s what I wanted. No, I think you know, what you’ll find in an outlying town like Sandakan was, Sandakan was, we had access to, in small quantities, but we had

25:00 access to it, thank God.

What were the penalties for being caught?

Death, beheading. Oh yes, jailing for life, jailing for ten years, trial, Japanese court, c..o...u...r...t. Taken to Singapore

25:30 and given some sort of trial. Japanese justice is something to behold. Not our idea of justice.

What did you see of this Japanese justice or brutality?

I wouldn’t have wanted to front up to it. It’s a great deterrent. And ah well, you saw

26:00 some of it in Bali, I think, or in Malaya, in ah, yes in Malaya or sorry not Malaya so much as Indonesia. And their system is different, their attitude is different from ours. Let me say no more, I don’t want to be offensive to the Indonesians.

26:30 Well let’s not get into that so much but what did you see of brutality during your time in the camp in Borneo?

What did I see of it in Sandakan?

In Sandakan. Floggings, bashings over the head with a stick or without a stick. Knocking, knocking troops to the ground, knocking their own troops to the ground. That was their standard form of punishment.

27:00 Themselves, they punished their troops that way. And every now and again you’d become aware that the officers were telling their own troops to turn around and bash their own troop alongside them. I don’t know why, I’ve never found out why. But that went on. A brutal, brutal sort of way of life which is very foreign to us.

27:30 Who were the worst among the guards?

The Koreans.

How would you distinguish?

I don’t know. You’d find them ... They had an inferiority complex probably. See they themselves were a conquered people and the Japs used to take it out on them as such, and then

28:00 they in retaliation took it out on us. So there you are this vicious circle going around.

What did you learn about the guards? Did you know any of them particularly during your time there?

I’ve always had a thought ... I’ve been brought up in a Christian way of life.

28:30 I found, not all my colleagues would agree with this, but I don’t care, I found that when we were dealing with a Japanese NCO or officer who was a Christian we got a fair go. There was a quartermaster at Sandakan and my recollection was that we never had any food trouble while he was there but as soon as he left that was it. We started to ...

29:00 our food started to run down. And I suspect there was food in the store that he held onto instead of giving it to us where it should have been.

Were there other instances of, well I guess slightly more compassionate behaviour on their behalf that you can recall?

Oh, they had their own standards.

29:30 Yes, I suppose one could say that they had their, they had their moments. It’s very hard to judge them by ourselves. We can’t, we can’t do that really because they are different, so are we. Jules won’t mind me saying this but I think there’s a might difference between the Japanese female and the Japanese male.

30:00 I couldn’t get on with the Japanese male but I could with the Japanese female, and I don’t mean that in any silly way. I don’t know how long that sort of relationship would last and if we ever had it or if we didn’t. But there was absolutely no reference to sex in the camp. I never heard of any sexual relationship, male or female, transsexual or

30:30 anything like that, nothing. We had some ... and I apologise for using the term, the term we used, we had poofters with us but not many, only two or three I think. I can think of one immediately, that’s all. But they existed at any time, at all times. Now they, well it’s almost become ... I’ve grown up through an era,

31:00 when it was almost fashionable to be able to declare yourself a homosexual. Silly isn’t it? I mean that’s my view anyhow.

What was the view of these men that were known to be homosexual?

I guess you think we laughed at them. We didn’t. left them alone, they left us alone. A lot of them were very clever, I mean very ...

31:30 Oh no. you don’t judge other people by your own standards.

Obviously sex isn’t foremost in your mind while you’re a prisoner ...

What?

Obviously sex isn’t foremost in your mind while you’re a prisoner of war.

Isn’t? No it certainly is not.

Well what did you think about?

I don’t know – it certainly wasn’t sex. It was home, home

32:00 again, home again, my wife to be, my fiancée. She’s the hero through all of this. We used to say that the women folk, that included fiancées, were getting the rough end of the pineapple as far as this was concerned because we knew where we were, we knew what was happening to us – they didn’t know where we were. 32:30 I found out after I got home that my family for example, were told that I was missing, recorded missing, believed prisoner of war. That’s no way to tell a family what’s happened. So they were, you know, they were left between the desert and the deep blue sea, and there was plenty of blue sea about.

What contact or news

33:00 at all during your time at Sandakan did you, did you have with the outside world?

What contact? None.

What news came in from any source?

Oh, there was a camp wireless. When, when the African troops ... When we started to land in Africa and went on from there that’s when we started to get contact with what was going on in the war,

33:30 and that was good. But we had to bide our time, bide our patience which we did do, I think.

What was the set up with the camp wireless?

Oh, it was in the, in our last camp. It was set up by six of us. You see Gordon Matthews was one of the, he was a sig officer, he understood wirelesses and that sort of thing.

34:00 He was responsible for organising, for putting it together. Wells was another one, he was an officer. He was another one. He was a very brave man because they knew that if they got caught, and they did, they’d had it. And they both ... Well Matthews was executed. Wells wasn’t, Wells was sentenced to jail and I won’t say escaped, I nearly said escaped,

34:30 he was discharged when the war ended, ended with a sentence half completed. He’s dead now, he died the other day.

Obviously that was a secret that had to be kept at all costs from the Japanese.

Oh, absolutely.

How secret was it amongst the prisoners themselves?

Very secret.

35:00 We knew it was there but we were very careful not to talk about it – certainly not to talk about it in public. And when the news came out it was secret and people would sort of talk about it in hushed terms. You didn’t shout it out. No, it was an interesting exercise in a disciplined communication

35:30 I suppose. I suppose that’s what you’d say. Not everybody was careful but by and large we were, I hope.

Were there any instances you remember where that disciplined communication broke down?

Oh, there’d have to be, yes, because the Japs got onto it. You see the Japs broke the circle. They broke the circle through the police I think,

36:00 in Sandakan, Sandakan.

Through the police outside the wire?

Yeah, and the Chinese. You see that’s where Imelda Moshe is very good at this. She knows more about this than I do.

Were you ever outside the wire during your time there?

Not doing that sort of thing, I wasn’t. No, I’m no hero. No they were.

36:30 I lift my head to them.

You’ve mentioned already a couple of instances of extreme bravery. Running the radio was one, being outside the wire. What other examples of bravery did you see in the prisoner of war camp in Sandakan?

Oh. what we call the 2nd of September incident.

37:00 Ah, in that photograph book of mine they had the incident, what they called the Sandakan, the Singapore Incident. Ah, we had it too. The Japanese paraded the whole camp and told us we all had to sign a declaration, a declaration that

37:30 we wouldn’t try to escape or else we’d be shot. We didn’t sign it. Well, nobody agreed to sign it. It wouldn’t have mattered very much if we had according to our law, but they would have used it against us. But the CO, Alfie Walsh said, “I’m not going to sign it and neither do I want any of you people to sign it.”

38:00 So ah ... Alfie hadn’t been that shot hot as a commander, he was a CO but they eventually dragged him out, the Japs dragged him out and paraded him in front and threatened to shoot him in front of us all. And the Australian troops wouldn’t have a bar of it. So it was a very brave thing, he stood up to them 38:30 and they would have shot him, they would have shot us. It didn’t get that far fortunately. One of the other officers came forward and nothing happened. Anyhow something broke, I’ve forgotten what it was, it doesn’t matter because the tide turned and

39:00 the Japs realised they were onto nothing, they knew what we knew, that it wasn’t worth the paper it was written on. The camp commander he realised too – he was a university graduate, he understood our point of view.

What happened to Walsh?

He came home, oh yes, he came home. He was a Duntroon man,

39:30 commander of the 2nd , the 2/10th Field Regiment. But he had been the senior gunnery officer in a division before they picked him up. Oh, before the commanding officer of the 2/10th , a Queensland unit, before he died,

40:00 he died over there I think. So anyhow he was a very lonely man. I remember the morning that the Japs surrendered and I was sitting in my hut at about eight o’clock in the morning. And I could see

40:30 the little hut that Alfie Walsh occupied, a little door. His hut emptied out onto the footpath outside. And I thought oh Jesus that’s strange, what’s Alfie doing now. So he walked out and walked around the back of my hut, our hut, walked around the back of it and came in and announced, “Gentlemen the war’s over.”

41:00 Just like that, I’ve never forgotten it. And it then took about, oh that was the fifteenth of August. It took ages for things to happen. But they were very dangerous days, the fifteenth of August through to the thirteenth of September, quite

41:30 a long time when you want to come home.

Tape 6

00:33 I’m just wondering in what way did you comfort each other in Sandakan?

Oh, comfort’s hardly the right word. We supported each other, that’s a better word but we didn’t comfort people, not as such. No, you just did your best. You interested in any bad news from home.

01:00 And you let them know that you were thinking of them, but you couldn’t do anything about it, you just did it or not, as the case may be. If they were friends in particular they did it or you did it. I have a theory and I don’t know how many people share this, I believe

01:30 the Australians are more religiously oriented than they get given credit for. I think we’re a spiritual people. Not everybody agrees with that but I think it’s true. I don’t know what a percentage but it’s quite a percentage, quite a real percentage. For example, up in

02:00 the town of Sandakan there’s an old stone church, and this is Lynette Silver who you’ve probably heard of, a historian, has written a number of books, a number of history books, including several on Sandakan. And they’re good. I mean she’s an unrivalled person

02:30 for getting, for getting the details out and, and anybody who’s got any problems you go to her book. Ah, I wish she would acknowledge some of the other people whose work she’s obviously borrowed from – that’s a bit libellous. That’s like Don Law, he opened it all up but still she didn’t, so that’s it.

03:00 Now she has organised, The Sydney Morning Herald has written it up quite several times, she’s organised a fund to put a glass, a stain glass window in the old church at Sandakan with the aid of the local people of course, and it’s a memorial, not only us but more importantly

03:30 it’s a memorial to the people of Sandakan, particularly the people who helped us and helped themselves and resisted the Japanese. Those are the very brave people I’ve been talking about. And a few of us, a few but there’s not many of us alive now, we wanted to send, we’ve got some money in the Aus Sandakan Association – it’s built up over, over a period of time, what they’re going to do with it when we’ve all

04:00 died I don’t know, but I had an idea we should make a substantial donation to that window, the cost of it. And a few of us, we had a lunch not so long ago, and a few of us wanted to send a substantial amount, like eight thousand, to my mind, and one other man, I’d better not identify him, blow him, at the general meeting,

04:30 and he turned on me and he said, “Alan, rubbish, nobody goes to church these days.” Now that hurt. It didn’t only hurt me, it hurt a lot of people in the room. I’ve been talking to others since that incident, only yesterday, and they’re hurt too, but no, he won’t shift. Somebody had a crack at him yesterday and he’s unshiftable.

05:00 Well we might talk a bit more about post-war but perhaps we can just go back to your story and you can tell us how you left Sandakan?

Yes, I believe that’s part of the story, the spirituality of it all. You asked me how we looked after each other, that’s one of the ways.

And I’d like to talk a bit more about that a bit later on.

Mm, there was a chapel in Sandakan

05:30 in which some of us, oh a couple of Anglicans had built in the basement of one of the huts on a sloping, sloping hill. And I learnt to go to ... I’m not an Anglican ... to Anglican evensong and I enjoyed myself. I mean I’m Presbyterian by bringing, by upbringing but I became

06:00 very attached to the Anglican evensong service. I’m not sorry, good. Those things comfort you.

And what do you think got you through your time at Sandakan?

Partly that, partly my faith. It still is, it’s still with me – it’s even with me here.

06:30 Well can you tell my the circumstances of how you came to leave Sandakan?

Well, we knew the war had finished on the fifteenth of September. On the thirteenth of October we were marched out and somewhere there’s a photo

07:00 of the troops just before we marched out. That was a very difficult period. The Japanese could very easily have turned dog on us. They didn’t want to – the Japanese never surrender they say, but ah eventually they were persuaded by a higher command, their own high command to give it away. And in between those,

07:30 that three weeks they could easily have mowed us down. I mean they had the weapons, we didn’t. It’s as silly as that. If we took one, one step out of place on our part we mightn’t have come home and then there would have been hell to pay.

Can you tell me the circumstance so how you came to go to Kuching?

08:00 Oh, that’s interesting. One day we came back from a working party, I think on the drome, and the word went around that we were going, we were to pack our bags and get ready to move – the officers alone. That we weren’t to talk to the troops. If you had a brother who was in the troop lines too bad.

08:30 Several of my friends had brothers in the lines and they weren’t allowed to talk. Gavin for example, had a brother. Ah, that was cruel. Jim Davidson, who died recently, he was a grazier from Young, not far from where you’re working, and he wasn’t allowed to talk to his brother.

09:00 And so that was that. And Gavin, the other Gavin didn’t come home but the other Young did, the other not Young, Davidson did, he came home. They worked the property together out of Young – I’ve forgotten the name of it.

And did the Japanese tell you why you were living the Sandakan camp and going to Kuching?

09:30 No, they didn’t do that sort of thing, it was too benign. That wasn’t part of their makeup.

What did they tell you about where you were going?

I don’t think they told us anything. They moved us into Sandakan and onto a much smaller ship, about fifteen hundred tons I think –

10:00 no I’m sorry five hundred tons, but I think it was a former river boat. And it had a long stern. You know that, you see pictures of them going up the Ganges River where people camp out on the back. It was one of those. We ran into

10:30 a bad storm off Meri, which was rather frightening actually. The Japs were very scared. We could have had that ship. They were panicking. We didn’t panic. There was nowhere to take the ship. There were probably submarines in the area so we didn’t do anything about it. So we just tamely went onto Kuching. People think it’s a bit strange to have done that

11:00 but nothing else to do.

And how many were there in your group?

What ...?

That went to Kuching?

Oh, about forty, about a hundred and forty. Yes, about a hundred and forty – near enough anyhow.

And, and what did you feel when you left all the other men behind? How did you react to that? 11:30 We were under command, we didn’t have any feelings. We had to do as we were told or else. There was no point in having feelings. It sounds sordid, it sounds dreadful, but that was life.

And where were you put when you got to Kuching?

In the camp at Lintang, Lintang barracks. Yes, that was what happened to us there.

12:00 It was a training college, a teachers’ college. And we were there until October ‘43. And as I say, it’s still there that hut but ah ... Oh it was quite a, it was a different sort of place rather better than Kuching, Sandakan, but not that much better.

12:30 And ah ...

What did you do there? How did you pass the time?

Nothing. Just sweating and idleness. We gardened, we did a lot of gardening. Got very weak. I lost a lot of weight but nothing I could do about that. Grew

13:00 vegetables, our own vegetables – nothing I could do about that. Ah have you ever seen tapioca growing in the raw? Like a big root and we ate a lot of that. I don’t like it.

What other food were you being given?

Oh, an occasional piece of meat, which was carved into a stew.

13:30 An occasional bit of fish. Not very often. No, not very often fish. I don’t know why but we didn’t. Aircraft came across occasionally and obviously keeping an eye on things – reconnaissance planes. Coming down ... We found out later on,

14:00 coming down from Labuan. By that stage the British had taken Labuan. They’d taken Sandakan too. So the war was coming to an end and we knew that. We just had to hope that it would come to an end in good time, yep, and it did eventually

14:30 And I’m just wondering how overall how did the camp in Kuching compare to the one at Sandakan?

Are you talking about the section of the camp we were in? It was a big camp. There were four thousand British troops. British troops, a lot of other –

15:00 There were Dutch internees, Dutch priests, Dutch nuns, and there was quite a mixture of people. Dutch officers. They were just through the wire from us, we could talk to them freely and we did. Much more freely than we had ever in Sandakan spoken through the wire.

15:30 There I go again Sandakan.

And, and do you remember the day ... You’ve told Chris a little bit about the day you got the news of when the war ended.

Yes, I did.

Just take us through your release and how ...?

Oh, the release, the actual release. Well we had, we had a parade down on the

16:00 parade yard square. There were church services, army service and eventually we were told to ... I think we went in by truck, I’m certain we did, into the wharves. And eventually we were loaded onto American light vessels of some sort, I’ve forgotten what you call them, and

16:30 carted down Kuching River to, onto another hospital ship which was very comfortable, a very good way to come home, instead of flying home. Flying home would have been too quick, it was too quick for a lot of people. They had trouble coming to terms with their new found release or they took time to get, to become accustomed to

17:00 you know, their new life, their freedom. And the worst people, the people worst affected were the people who flew all the way from say the Philippines to Darwin and then onto Sydney. I’m sorry for them. There was one very good doctor friend of mine who when he got to Mascot

17:30 there wasn’t a soul there to meet him – they didn’t know he was coming. And I don’t know what that did to his psyche but he wasn’t too good, it’s not the way to come home. But still he survived. He’s a brilliant surgeon.

And why do you think the POW’s needed time to get used to the idea of release?

Strength, strength of

18:00 every character. There’s physical strength, mental strength, moral strength. Just looking the world in the eye and saying I belong here – just like that. I remember, my father was a doctor, and when he went ... Mother and Father knew that I was coming home, they did the right thing by me they

18:30 rented a cottage up in Bowral for a month, a month holiday. They assumed I had leave, I did. So that’s what we did, we spent a month up there in Bowral. And I really couldn’t walk freely for the first three weeks of that holiday. I remember there was a long drive in

19:00 the house we were renting, and I couldn’t come to terms with the fact that I had to get the newspaper each morning from the bottom of that drive. I couldn’t stand up all that distance, I couldn’t run, I couldn’t, well I could walk but I couldn’t run. And I used to try to run as an exercise and gradually I extended it. But no I eventually worked it out

19:30 but I’ve never forgotten though. You had to come to terms with things, with life. No sorry, life’s like that.

And I imagine coming to terms with, as you say, after being a POW in Borneo would have taken some time.

Yes it did.

I’m just wondering

20:00 were you met by anybody when you arrived?

Yes, the whole family. It may sound strange but it’s not. I mean ah ... We came into number, Pyrmont Wharf, Number Thirteen. It was the thirteenth of September and we’d landed, landed on Wharf Thirteen. And, funny the date thirteen

20:30 followed me home, we did everything on the thirteenth, the wharf and so on. So I, they… My fiancée’s house, her parents lived near Ashfield Park and I can still remember my grandmother who wasn’t a chicken

21:00 she met us there and somehow or other I can still see my grandmother running down Parramatta Road, alongside the Parramatta Park chasing the double decker bus we were on. She wouldn’t thank me for that comment. She’s not alive now.

Well you mentioned you had, you were weak and you’d lost a lot of weight

21:30 and you couldn’t walk properly. What other I guess, lingering affects do you think you had from your time?

I don’t really know – I often thought about that. I don’t know what other affects it had. I don’t think I was a very healthy boy, but my doctor friend I mentioned earlier, he said I had a very bad dose of beriberi. Well I wasn’t aware of that.

22:00 He gave me a big shot of serum before we left the camp. I thought a lot of other people ... You see beriberi’s usually followed up by swelling and I didn’t have any swelling but he said, “No Alan, you had very bad beriberi.” I suppose he could pick it up in my heart, I don’t know. Still I didn’t, I didn’t argue

22:30 I took it. And I was lucky because Frank was a very good friend and still is. He’s still alive.

And when did you find out the news of what had happened to the rest of the troops that you’d left behind at Sandakan?

It drifted into us. We never found out the whole story immediately. I’ve just forgotten,

23:00 when it was we learnt the whole story but it would have been quite a long time. Certainly we hadn’t reached Sydney before we, before it came out and it had come out but not all of it. I think still a lot of it has come out, is coming out. That’s why a book like Lynette Silver’s book, Don Law’s book, Don started it. Don’s a very ...

23:30 because he hasn’t got the education that Lynette Silver’s got. And I was very sorry that Lynette couldn’t see her way to write that book without acknowledging that Don Law was the pioneer. Because it was official government policy to hush it up. I’ve seen the letter

24:00 that ah the Victorian RSL [Returned and Services League] secretary, Ruxton ah yes, Ruxton wrote to Menzies saying the story was too horrific and shouldn’t, shouldn’t be told, shouldn’t be released to the public, the relatives couldn’t be able to take it. Well Menzies succumbed to that

24:30 and I don’t blame him, it was a dreadful story. And so it was hushed up, stayed hushed, stayed secret. And it went on like that for years. But it must have been seven or eight years before it started to come out and Don opened it up and you got these memorials around the country. That was a very slow manifestation of the opening up of the story. I don’t know whether you’ve

25:00 seen it. Have you been to Tamworth? Go up to the Tamworth, you know Tamworth Park and right in the centre of it and you’ll find a beautiful memorial. Now that memorial’s just the same as memorials in Burwood Park, ah Wagga, Maitland and in Melbourne. No not Melbourne. Anyhow there are five 25:30 of them around Australia which the Aus Sandakan was responsible for really establishing.

Well I’m wondering when you first started getting the news of what had happened, who did you talk to?

Who did I talk to? We talked amongst ourselves, that’s about all you could do; nobody else would talk to you. Just wondered what on earth had gone on. Yes ...

26:00 And how did you deal with that really tragic news?

Horror. Nothing much else but horror. You know, I don’t mind me saying it here, you bastards. That was the attitude. And I said something earlier about hate.

26:30 You can think that from that time on we should have hated. Well we were still alive, we still have to live, we still are alive. So anyhow that’s it. And I returned to ah ... My wife agreed to marry me in February, this was October

27:00 we’re talking about, that’s right, she agreed to we could get married. Now I didn’t have a bean. I didn’t have a degree, I didn’t have anything but my in-laws were very, very kind, very, very good and she was an only child. Her elder sister had died of TB about seven years before and so

27:30 they adopted me into that family. And we lived in that house in Alberton Street, Ashfield. It was very kind, they were very kind to me, no doubt about it. And so she pushed, I won’t say pushed, that’s the wrong word, she helped through my Law Degree. Relatives of mine arranged for me to

28:00 get a job in a very well known legal firm, Alan, Alan & Hensby, which was good luck for me because I became senior partner. And it’s a big firm, I mean it’s one of Sydney’s, one of Australia’s leading firms. But it was at the time I was Senior Partner, there were six hundred in it.

28:30 Hard to believe that a legal firm could be that big. I don’t know. Yeah.

Well looking back how do you think your time either before you became a POW or during your time as a POW, how do you think that time and experience changed you?

What ...?

How do you think that time changed you?

29:00 Lots of influences in life change you.

I’m specifically talking about the war and your time as a POW?

No, I don’t know. I can’t answer that because I don’t think I can pick out any particular incident or series of incidents. But I can say that the whole influence – my parents, my mother, my father, particularly my wife. I can’t say which of those.

29:30 And my in-laws they were very kind to me. I just can’t say which of those. My church. I don’t know, I really don’t know. Yeah.

Well can you tell me how ... I mean you’ve talked a bit throughout our time with you of the hatred towards the Japanese. How have you managed

30:00 to resolve that hatred?

I haven’t. I just don’t. It’s still there but I’m not going to admit it. I don’t admit it to myself or to anybody else. And I don’t let anybody else in my presence, my own family for example, they know my attitude towards hate and hating other people. No, they share it. I’m certain they

30:30 share it. No problem. I can’t be bothered. Yes.

Well I guess you’ve mentioned the role of faith and spirituality. I’m wondering after an experience like yours how do you find some kind of peace in yourself?

31:00 Peace? Realising that I’m not alone in this world. God is there looking after you if you’ll only listen and realise that you’re not alone – but it takes a bit of doing sometimes. It may sound silly but it’s true.

And do you think ... I’m just wondering is there I guess, I imagine it would be very difficult knowing that you left a

31:30 group of men behind that suffered a tragic fate. How do you come to terms with that?

Well, I’ve already referred to the situation several times. When you were in the army you did as you were told. There was no, no passing the buck – you had to do it or not. And you were in a situation where you didn’t have a choice. Now you could say that the person who gave you the orders shouldn’t have given the order,

32:00 but so what, they’ve given it and that’s the end of it. It should be anyhow. It shouldn’t have, the situation shouldn’t have arisen. In the best of all possible worlds it wouldn’t have. I think that’s fair enough.

Well, you’ve talked a lot about the difficulties of the different camps you were in, I’m wondering whether humour or were there any light, lighter moments that got you through?

32:30 Oh, God yes, there were a lot of lighter moments. Read the ‘Borneo Burlesque’ book and you’ll see how some brilliant men entertained us until the Japs put an end on it. They were great, very good indeed. But why those a hundred and forty men camped together,

33:00 God knows, I don’t know, but you don’t know what goes on, I don’t, it just happens. But I can commend. I think ‘Borneo Burlesque’ is one of the most remarkable books I’ve ever bought or, yes I did buy it.

Well you’ve had a lot of time

33:30 to, and many years of reflection. I’m wondering looking back on that time is there a strongest memory that you have that stands out?

Affection for my wife. Regret that I wasn’t fair to her all the time. That I expected too much from her and didn’t give enough in return. Ah ...

And what of your war experience?

Work experience?

The war experience?

The war experience? Oh I don’t, I have no comment on that. I didn’t have much of a war in a POW camp.

And why do you think it’s important for us to

34:00 know the details and remember the Borneo and the Sandakan story?

It mustn’t be allowed to happen again. Absolutely no, no way. It’s a once in a lifetime, once in a national life.

INTERVIEW ENDS