June 3, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 1281

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA head: INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

Bill 77 Title: Monday, June 3, 1985 2:30 p.m. Pharmaceutical Profession Act

DR. REID: Mr. Speaker, I request leave to introduce a [The House met at 2:30 p.m.] Bill, being Bill No. 77, the Pharmaceutical Profession Act. Mr. Speaker, this Bill is only going to be introduced at this spring sitting and will sit over until the fall for any PRAYERS public input. As well as introducing the normal provisions for a council of the profession and public representatives on the practice review and having a discipline committee, [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] it introduces the concept of having a pharmacy which is only a portion of the retail premises, that portion which includes the dispensary and the other areas where non• head: INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS prescription drugs of a defined list will be sold to the public. There will be a ministerial advisory committee on MR. PAHL: In view of the business of the day, Mr. such nonprescription drugs. The Bill also allows for non- Speaker, we have some special visitors in your gallery and pharmacist ownership of pharmacies but will allow only perhaps in the members' gallery. I'm at a bit of a disad• pharmacists to operate the pharmacy. vantage because of my location, but I would like to introduce to you, sir, and to members of the Assembly, the following [Motion carried; Bill 77 read a second time] people. By their titles it will become apparent why they're here: first, Mr. Joe Courtepatte, president of the Federation of Metis Settlements of Alberta; Mr. Sam Sinclair, president head: TABLING RETURNS AND REPORTS of the Metis Association of Alberta; Mr. Clarence Cun• ningham, chairman of the Big Prairie Settlement Association; MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table with the Mr. Ernest Howse, president of the Caslan Settlement Legislative Assembly the annual report for the Electric Association; Mr. Harry Supernault, president of the East Energy Marketing Agency for the year ended March 31, Prairie Settlement Association; Mr. Archie Collins, president 1985. of the Elizabeth Lake Metis settlement association; Margaret Fayant, president of the Fishing Lake Settlement Association; St. Germaine Courteoreille, president of the Gift Lake head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS Settlement Association; Mr. William Erasmus, president of the Kikino Metis settlement association; and Mr. Albert MR. PAHL: Mr. Speaker, it's my pleasure today as well Wanuch, president of the Paddle Prairie Metis settlement to introduce from the constituency of Edmonton Mill Woods association. 40 students in grade 6 in Ekota elementary school. They Mr. Speaker, they are, for the most part, in your gallery. are accompanied by their teachers, Mr. Peter Wyllie, Mr. I would ask them all, wherever they might be, to please Lonnie Wilcox, and Mr. Charles Wiese. To show you that rise and receive the welcome of the Assembly. the parents in Edmonton Mill Woods are very much involved in their children's learning process, we are fortunate to have five parents accompany the group as well: Mr. and MR. SPEAKER: In view of the special occasion, perhaps Mrs. Jenkins, Mrs. Lylick, Mrs. Braden, and Mrs. Punch. there are other members of the House who have constituents, They're in the members' gallery. I ask them to rise and members of the Metis Association, in the Speaker's gallery be welcomed by the Assembly. or in one of the other galleries. Perhaps those other members would like to make those introductions now. MR. SPARROW: Mr. Speaker, I would like to introduce to you and to the Assembly a constituent of mine, Mr. MR. ADAIR: Mr. Speaker, I certainly appreciate the invi• Dan Claypool, and a young visitor to our province from tation to do that. In the Speaker's gallery is a gentleman Scotland, Mr. Ken Campbell. Mr. Campbell is touring farms from my constituency representing the Paddle Prairie set• in our province to compare our agriculture industry to theirs. tlement, Richard Poitras, who was the first president of the They are seated in the members' gallery. I wish they would Federation of Metis Settlements some years ago — Richard, stand and receive the warm welcome of the House. you're getting a little grayer now — and, I understand, Elmer Ghostkeeper, who is now a resident of Edmonton MR. WEISS: Mr. Speaker, I have the double pleasure today Parkallen and Paddle Prairie in the Peace River constituency as well to introduce to you, and through you to members as well and the past president of the Federation of Metis of the Assembly, 84 grade 8 students. They're from St. Settlements. I'd like them to stand and receive the warm Gabriel school, and they're representing as well the Fort welcome of this Assembly. McMurray Magical Mystery Tour III group. They're accom• panied by their teachers, Ms Charlene Pratt, Mr. Greg MR. WEISS: Mr. Speaker, I too would like to take this Alyward, Mrs. Marlene Cooper, Miss Karen Heighton, and opportunity and thank you for extending the courtesy. From Mr. David Kemp; the lone parent who braved this journey the Kikino settlements, I have the Senator, none other than down is Mrs. Audrey Burke. They're seated in both the Mr. Adrian Hope, Mr. Reuben Pruden, Mr. Marshall Howse, members' and the public galleries. I ask that they rise and and Mr. Randy Hardy. Along with them, from the Caslan receive the cordial welcome of the Assembly. Settlement, is Miss Dorothy Ladouceur, Mr. Glen Auger, and Mr. Horst Patenaude. I ask that they all rise and receive MRS. LeMESSURIER: Mr. Speaker, I would like to intro• the cordial welcome of the Assembly. duce to you, and through you to Members of the Legislative 1282 ALBERTA HANSARD June 3, 1985

Assembly, three members from the Native Friendship Centre MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, in his announcement last in Edmonton Centre: Georgina Donald, the president; Muriel Wednesday the minister said that Kinetic is going to be Stanley-Venne; and Archie Laboucane. They are seated in paid $1.8 million worth of public money for something your gallery. I would ask that they rise and receive the called lost business opportunities. My question specifically: warm welcome of this Assembly. is the opportunity which was lost, as far as the government is concerned, the opportunity to win the contract which MR. PAYNE: Mr. Speaker, this afternoon I would like to another private company, Chem-Security, won to build the introduce to you and to the other members of the Assembly Swan Hills facility? Mr. Jim West, who is visiting from Toronto today and spending some time with our guide services staff. I would MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, I think the ministerial like to point out to you, sir, and to the other members statement of last Wednesday covered the areas and categories that Mr. West in past years has been extremely helpful to for which the government paid to Kinetic certain amounts our guide staff in the Alberta pavilion at the CNE in for lost business opportunity and other reasons. Toronto. I'd like Mr. West to stand now in the members' gallery and be cordially welcomed by the members. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary. The ministerial statement was very vague. My question very specifically to the min• MRS. LeMESSURIER: Mr. Speaker, I'm also pleased to ister: was one of the considerations of this lost business rise today and introduce to you, and through you to members opportunity the fact that they did not build the Swan Hills of this Assembly, 14 students from the Alberta Vocational plant? Centre in Edmonton Centre. They are accompanied by their leader Janet Kan and Mr. Richard Sim. They are in the MR. BRADLEY: No, Mr. Speaker, not for that specific public gallery. I ask now that they rise and receive the reason. warm welcome of this Assembly. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question. Could the min• ister be a little more specific and tell us what were the lost business opportunities? head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, as I said, the government Kinetic Ecological Resource Group Ltd. came forward with exclusive jurisdiction with regard to the responsibility for special waste in the province, extending MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, in Environment Week I'd it to a Crown corporation, being the Alberta Special Waste like to ask some questions of the Minister of the Environ• Management Corporation. In terms of the philosophy of the ment. As a result of the negotiations by this government government, the discussion which had taken place in the with Kinetic, I wonder if the minister could advise if, to province with regard to the storage and treatment of these his knowledge, Kinetic has received payment for the haz• specific wastes, the advice we received from the Environment ardous wastes that are now stored at their site in Nisku. Council of Alberta, the impact of our legislation, and the fact that we'd taken over exclusive jurisdiction and on a MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, that would be a matter of number of occasions we denied various applications of this a business contract between Kinetic and whomever it con• company, our philosophy was that in terms of the lost tracted with regard to those wastes. business which this company would have to suffer as a result of our decisions, it would be appropriate to compensate MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question. By the minister's them accordingly. I don't know what the philosophy of the answer I take it that they were probably paid for it. My hon. member's party is. Perhaps he would have the question is: does the minister have any information for the government intervene in this manner, come forward with Assembly on whether or not Kinetic has ever, to his exclusive jurisdiction, and not provide for compensation. knowledge, had any capacity at all to destroy the wastes That's not the principle which we are following in this they have been stockpiling? case.

MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, on a number of occasions MR. MARTIN: I'm not the government. We're asking you the particular company would come forward to the province the questions, Mr. Minister. My question is: will the Minister with applications to proceed to build destruction facilities. of the Environment advise if it is now the policy of this They certainly had the necessary technology available to government that those companies which bid on government them. It was a matter of whether or not the province was projects or lose business in other ways, who are unsuccessful willing to give them the approvals to proceed. We did not. winning tenders, should be compensated for their lost busi• ness opportunities? Is this the new method of dealing with MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question following from companies? that. For clarification, is the minister saying that to his knowledge Kinetic has never had the ability to destroy the MR. BRADLEY: No, Mr. Speaker. In terms of the decisions wastes that they already have at their site? we made, it was fairly clear that in the public interest the province was going to move in, in a major way, and have MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, the company to which the exclusive jurisdiction for these specific areas of treatment. hon. leader refers has had before the government for some In terms of our commitments and our philosophy, we time proposals to construct destruction facilities. They've proceeded on the basis that there would be some compen• had technology available to them which would provide for sation where we denied this specific application from this that. By government decision we denied them the opportunity company, specifically because our legislation impacted on to proceed with those facilities. it. That is why we move forward at this time in this manner. June 3, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 1283

Perhaps the philosophy the hon. leader would follow would MR. MARTIN: That is correct, as you recollect. My be different, in terms of expropriation without compensation. question was: could the minister indicate why we had such high samples at that site? MR. MARTIN: Was it expropriation? I thought it was free enterprise. I thought you were the free enterpriser, Mr. MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, in the storage facility itself Minister. My question is simply this: can the minister assure I believe there were some concerns with regard to a specific the Assembly that this is not some sort of settlement which tank which that company had, in terms of its ability to keeps a promise and that there's never been any sort of contain the substances which ran off into it. There was promise made to Kinetic that they would be granted certain some concern there. These investigations took place as a government work which was not later granted to them? result of that, and that situation had been corrected. As I recollect, the department put in place at that time an extensive MR. BRADLEY: I believe that is correct, Mr. Speaker. groundwater monitoring program to see if, in fact, any of this contamination may have gone off the site or into the MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, as a point of clarification. groundwater. The results of that investigation, which were Kinetic established and operated their private waste storage part of the return which was filed, indicate that that has business without any sort of guarantee at all that they would not taken place. ever be able to enter the waste disposal business. Is that true? MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question. Were these levels brought to the minister's attention by his officials as soon MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, with regard to the specific as they were discovered? applications before us and our denial of those applications, in terms of the law at that time, there was nothing in the MR. BRADLEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker. At the earliest oppor• law which would have prevented those applications from tunity the department provided me with that information going forward. With the establishment of our exclusive and the follow-up program they'd initiated to correct the jurisdiction we had an impact on the business opportunities situation. they would have had prior to our passing those laws. MR. MARTIN: Could the minister be a little more specific? MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question . . . What steps were taken to thoroughly clean up this completely contaminated material? MR. SPEAKER: Might this be the final supplementary in this series. MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, an investigation took place. As I recollect, the company was ordered to remove the MR. MARTIN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. specific storage tank and put a system in place such that My understanding is that the Kinetic group lease their any leakage would not occur in the future. warehouses in Nisku and, at least in 1983, their truck fleet was leased as well. Could the minister indicate what assets MR. MARTIN: That's very well. I'm glad the minister has we are buying with the $454,500 of taxpayers' money? given his assurance. I was asking, though, if he could be a little more specific. What steps were taken at that particular MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, there are certain furnitures time? These are very frightening levels. and fixtures at that facility which are required for the ongoing operation of a storage facility. There is some very MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, I think I've explained that expensive equipment there which is incidental to the necessity the concern was with a specific tank on the site in the to continue to have that waste safely stored. Those are the storage warehouse. That situation has been corrected and a types of assets which we have purchased, plus any leasehold monitoring program was put in place in the longer term to improvements which that company has put into place to ensure that there was no migration into the groundwater ensure the safe storage of those wastes. system. Reports to me have proven that there is no migration into the water systems. MR. MARTIN: I'll go into another area another day, Mr. Speaker. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

Kinetic Storage Facilities MR. SPEAKER: Might this be the final supplementary on this continuation of the first question. MR. MARTIN: My second question to the Minister of the Environment also has to do with the ministerial announce• MR. MARTIN: Well, it's slightly different. ment. In Sessional Paper 140/85, which was tabled last The test results, also from the 1985 sampling program, Wednesday, it is shown that on May 27, 1983, samples of which were released last Wednesday show that PCB levels sludge and surface water were taken on the Kinetic site of 65.7 parts per million were found in sediment at site which showed levels of PCBs 328 and 90 times, respectively, 29 off-site below a culvert outfall. Given the minister's of the so-called safe levels of 50 parts per million that the assurance to the Assembly in the spring of 1983 that ditch minister talks about. Could the minister advise the Assembly clearance and soil removal as well as berm construction what caused such extremely high levels? had made the site secure, could he advise what investigation he ordered as to why this contaminated sediment was below MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, I believe the samples which the culvert this year? the hon. member refers to were on the Kinetic site itself, and they were within the storage facilities themselves, spe• MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, one can only come up with cifically, as I recollect. some hypothetical reason why those levels might be there. 1284 ALBERTA HANSARD June 3, 1985

The important thing is that our monitoring program found mean one and the same thing for the purpose of the North them, that the company was required to clean them up and American situation. they proceeded to do that, and that the site is now cleaned With regard to the earlier part of the hon. member's up. question, it's our view, first of all on a legal basis, under article 24 of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, Free Trade Initiatives that it's quite in order to have a bilateral comprehensive free trade arrangement with another country. That is not MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the at odds with GATT. Everything we've been saying on this Premier. It's with regard to free trade and the common subject since mid-February has been that we should be market statements that have been made by the Premier. pushing aggressively in markets throughout the world as Page 1 of the document I have here that the Premier is well as in the United States. We have been doing that in quite familiar with, Free Trade with the United States: An a multitude of ways, including our visitor from the Soviet Alberta Perspective, which was presented at the first min• Union last week and a number of other things I could isters' conference in February, states: mention. The payoff [of free trade] will be in the prospect of Mr. Speaker, through to the member, I think the key substantial new job opportunities for Canadians. point is that if the Canadian processor, manufacturer, or What I'd like to ask the Premier first of all is: did the supplier were able to have the opportunity to service the government do some studies prior to the presentation of North American market of Canada and the United States this paper that would indicate the kinds of job opportunities and could, therefore, have the economies of scale that would and what the prospects would be? come out of the nature of that production, that manufacturer, processor, or supplier is then much more able to compete MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, we were aware that other in the marketplace throughout all the various regions of the groups were doing intensive studies. Ours was a judgmental world. So in our judgment, having a free trade arrangement position. As we got into it, we became even more convinced between the United States and Canada would make us more that it was crucial to the future of not only Alberta but competitive in the rest of the world. Canada, simply because, to put it bluntly, there is no status quo in our relationship with the United States. We've just MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question seen a multitude of actions taken by the United States, and to the Premier with regard to the definition of "free trade" perhaps that's just the tip of the iceberg. There's no status and "common market". Were the other premiers in agree• quo. ment with that definition that "free trade" and "common One of the options raised by Mr. Kelleher on January market" were interchangeable? In some academic senses 29, of course, as the hon. Member for Little Bow will they are not. I'd appreciate that clarification from the recall, was to maintain the status quo. Another was a Premier. framework arrangement. The third was a comprehensive free trade arrangement. There's a growing body of opinion MR. LOUGHEED: We discussed that. Questions of that in this country that's really quite convinced that there isn't nature were placed to us at the closing news conference in such a thing as the status quo any more. We really haven't Grande Prairie, and in my remarks I gave the same answers very many choices, and they're diminishing by the month. I just did here in the Legislature to the effect that as far as I was concerned the concept of a free trade arrangement MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, to the Premier. I would and a common market were interchangeable, and no objection also like to relate my remarks to the conference in Grande was taken by the other premiers. Prairie where there was a call for a common market. Page 4 of the presentation with regard to free trade states: MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question Alberta is confident that free trade arrangements between for confirmation. I believe the Premier has already answered Canada and the United States will not hinder traditional it, but for further clarification as well. Two very important trading relations with other countries. items to Alberta and certainly to the government, as I My question to the Premier is: how can the government understand it, are trade and diversification, which allow us of Alberta or the Premier be confident that the establishment to market in the Pacific Rim and other countries without of a common market between Canada and the U.S. will intervention from the United States or even other parts of not interfere with our trading relations with other countries Canada. That's the first thing. Secondly, the government when it is obvious that a common market would require a and Premier have made statements that we in Alberta want harmonization of Canadian and U.S. trade barriers against a made-in-Canada interest rate. I was first of all thinking the rest of the world? Could the Premier clarify that, or in terms of common market, but in terms of the Premier's is that not the situation as forecast in the plan of the definition of common market and free trade, does the Premier government? see either one of them affected in any significant way?

MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, first of all, the use of MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, I don't with regard to the phrase "common market", which came out of the the monetary policy and interest rates. Clearly, from that Grande Prairie conference, in my view is interchangeable point of view, whether or not we're involved in an assured in concept with "free trade arrangement". A common market access for a comprehensive free trade arrangement or not, has to do in some aspects with a comparison with the investors worldwide will still judge the currency of the two European Economic Community, but common market means countries in the way they judge today. The reality of what assured access for our goods and services into the United might happen is that the value of the Canadian dollar might States and theirs into Canada. It doesn't mean that the other rise because investors throughout the world will see the elements of sovereignty are in any way diminished. We obvious growth within Canada that will come from a com• take the phrases "common market" and "free trade" to prehensive free trade arrangement. June 3, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 1285

The second part of the question raised by the hon. knows, a series of very significant shifts in opinion from member, if I understood it, had to do with the question of the Federation of Independent Business to even, surprisingly, diversification. In my judgment, two of the most absolutely the Canadian Manufacturers' Association and the Canadian crucial areas in diversification for Alberta are food processing Chamber of Commerce. So we've encouraged that. and petrochemicals. Those areas will be significantly enhanced In addition, we've had discussions with the C. D. Howe by being involved with an assured market in the United institute about the progress they've made in analyzing what States for their products. Diversification in this province I call the red herrings in the issue. The hon. member would will be considerably enhanced if the nation is bold enough know that the C. D. Howe institute has come out with a to move or initiate discussions on a comprehensive free very, very "important document analyzing the issue thor• trade arrangement with the United States. oughly. I believe by mid-July we're going to hear from Canada's Royal Commission on Economic Prospects. They're MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question going to deal with this issue, and we'll all await their to the Premier. I don't disagree with the comments that response with interest. were made. On a more practical basis, the application of From an intergovernmental point of view, we tabled in what we have talked about in a more general sense, could the House my letter to the Prime Minister with regard to the Premier indicate how the government would handle a the matter. We take the view that the initiative has to come situation such as the sugar beet industry of southern Alberta from Canada. That was the report I gave the Prime Minister that is now meeting with a parliamentary committee in from my visit to Washington. We have to take the initiative Ottawa with the view in mind of establishing tariffs on in this country. We've had advice from the federal government sugar cane coming into Canada? that they're in the process of considering this at cabinet committee during the month of July and will make the MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased with that decision in August. question, because I do think questions of that nature tend I'm using every opportunity, including a speaking engage• to clear up some misunderstanding. We're talking about a ment on Wednesday and on other occasions that I've had, comprehensive free trade arrangement with the United States. to raise the subject both here and in other parts of the There's nothing in that situation that in any way precludes country, and then intend to bring it forward further at the us from having tariffs with regard to sugar being imported August meeting of the premiers. from countries in the rest of the world, provided they're within the provisions of GATT. This comes about, if I Accountants Acts could just move to that particular point, with the discussion on the textile industry. There are people who are raising MR. ALEXANDER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the fears with regard to a free trade arrangement in the the hon. Solicitor General. It has to do with the introduction textile industry by presuming that a free trade arrangement in the House of Bill 71, and to a lesser extent Bills 72 with the United States means that there are not the tariff and 76. There's been considerable concern in the community, barriers or quotas that we have against other countries in particularly among small-business men, farmers, and vol• the world. They're not affected. The competition would be unteer groups, that Bill 71, if passed, would result in with the textile manufacturing in the United States. considerably increased costs because of the requirement for On the specific question with regard to the sugar industry, audits and reviews. This concern may be partly due to if there is a policy that we should have tariffs with regard certain advertising that's appeared, but the concern is real. to sugar to maintain, as I believe we should, some element I wonder if the minister could provide any information to of a sugar beet industry, that's a tariff in relation to other these people about the cost effect of Bill 71? countries in the world, not the United States. MR. SPEAKER: I have some difficulty with this. It seems MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to be anticipating debate on the Bill. On the other hand, to the Premier with regard to the strategy that will evolve it may be a means for members to prepare themselves for between now and, say, the fall of 1985. Could the Premier that debate. Perhaps the hon. minister would like to deal indicate what type of leadership will be taken by the Premier with it briefly. or the members of Executive Council in promoting free trade in Canada and in meeting with federal counterparts DR. REID: Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, I can address it without or meeting with interest groups in the United States to getting into debate on the Bills. The difficulty is that I promote the concept? Has the Premier a strategy in mind think some points need to be made very amply clear to and in place, and could the Premier at this time elaborate people in Alberta other than the accountants; first of all, on more of the details of that strategy? the assurance that such legislation is for the benefit of the public, as I've said before, not for the accountancy profes• MR. LOUGHEED: Well, Mr. Speaker, the strategy involved sions. It certainly was not and never will be the intention a number of steps, if I could review. It started with profiling of the government to add to the bookkeeping/accounting the issue at the First Ministers' Conference on the economy costs of small-business men, farmers, volunteer groups, in mid-February in Regina, and we certainly did that. The charitable organizations, and such like. Indeed, it's my hope, strategy then was to involve this issue as a major matter and I think that of the rest of the government caucus, that of public debate. We certainly have done that. It has clearly the survey of some 190 statutes and the regulations under been the issue of public debate, as it should be, because those statutes will result in a considerable decrease in the it's probably the most important economic decision the number of audits required and therefore, hopefully, a decrease country will make maybe in the last 50 years, maybe in in cost to those organizations and entities. the coming 30. We've encouraged a number of the larger organizations to canvass their membership as to whether or MR. ALEXANDER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. not they support the idea. We've had, as the hon. member Undaunted, let me try to clarify further. There is additional 1286 ALBERTA HANSARD June 3, 1985 concern that Bill 71, with its new definitions of audit and would estimate how many home care patients are now in review, will require more companies and agencies to have active treatment hospitals as a result of the nurses' strike. such reviews. Has the minister assessed whether this, in fact, is the case? Will there be an increased number required? DR. WEBBER: Mr. Speaker, I receive weekly reports from the health units with regard to the number of health unit DR. REID: I think, Mr. Speaker, the situation is that at nurses that are out on strike, the number of nurses that the moment, with some 190 statutes and sets of regulations, have reported back to work, and the number of clients that there's only been a very preliminary survey of those. I have been hospitalized during the strike. The numbers have expect that audits will continue to be required as they are not changed at all significantly over the past few weeks. now for the issuing of public shares and for certain munic• I'm reading the May 28 report, and there is a total of 56 ipal, school, and hospital reports where audits are currently required. There are some others where audits would be home care patients that are in either hospitals or nursing required: major financial dealings with certain Crown cor• homes. When I mention that 56, consider the fact that there porations, the Agricultural Development Corporation, the are eight health units out on strike, so that works out to Alberta Mortgage and Housing Corporation, the Alberta an average of about seven per health unit. Eight health Opportunity Company, and perhaps major loans through the units out of the 27 are on strike. Treasury Branches. But those audits would be such as are already asked for. The anticipation is that in actual fact MR. GURNETT: A supplementary question then, Mr. requirements for financial reporting, with the rationalization Speaker. I wonder if the minister has met with the hospitals that will come out of this survey, will probably in the vast minister to determine the additional costs. Specifically, could majority of cases be reduced from audits to some other the minister indicate what information he has about the cost form of financial statement. to the province of handling patients who would normally be home care patients under the care of public health unit MR. ALEXANDER: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. nurses? There's also concern within the accounting profession itself. Can the minister indicate whether his assessment of Bill 71 DR. WEBBER: Mr. Speaker, my understanding is that in would show that there would be a redistribution of market the cases where patients have been moved to hospitals or share to the chartered accountants in the commercial and nursing home facilities, there have been spaces available, business sector? so it's not a matter of replacing anybody or anything like that. The space is available, and these patients are being DR. REID: Mr. Speaker, it's difficult to give a one hundred taken care of in that way. percent assurance, but I would certainly anticipate that any effect upon market share would be minimal. For example, MR. GURNETT: A supplementary question. Is the minister in the commercial lending sector those institutions will make then indicating that it costs as much to have that space in their own requests of borrowers, as indeed they have in an active treatment hospital vacant as to have a patient the past and do at present. admitted to it? Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, I should take the opportunity — I was going to do it at another time — to indicate to the Assembly that Bills 71, 72, and 76 will not proceed at the DR. WEBBER: Mr. Speaker, I would let the hon. Minister spring sitting. The aim is to try to take the package that of Hospitals and Medical Care get into a debate with regard I mentioned at introduction of the three Bills, including the to what is costly or more costly in that regard. I'm just review of the statutes and regulations, and to complete that saying that our home care patients that do need hospital survey and have all the amendments to statutes and regu• care are being taken care of. lations available to members of the Legislature and the general public at the same time so that the public will not MR. GURNETT: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. be confused by either a lack of knowledge themselves or I understand that the minister was given a report last week by misleading advertisements such as mentioned by the hon. from nurses at the Wetaskiwin public health unit about the member. The aim of the package will be, as I said before number of patients in that area alone. I wonder if the in answering questions, to protect the independent, third- minister has had a chance to review that report and whether party investor, not to protect the professions. The package he can confirm that in that report, which covered the first will include a definition of audit and review for use in six weeks of the strike, the additional cost to hospitals in provincial statutes and regulations. It will continue the the area served by that health unit alone came to more principle of exclusive scope of practice, in a very limited than $165,000. way, to protect the third party so they can rely to the greatest extent possible upon the information they're using. DR. WEBBER: Mr. Speaker, I did receive information In anticipation of a further supplementary, Mr. Speaker, through the Member for Wetaskiwin-Leduc a week ago. perhaps I can indicate that I can't tell at this time whether We haven't had a chance to look at that. However, my the package will be available to be brought back to the responsibilities are with regard to the funding of health units Legislature for the fall sitting of 1985, the spring sitting throughout this province. We haven't done any studies with of 1986, or the fall sitting of 1986. regard to costs of any kind. MR. MARTIN: When's the election? MR. GURNETT: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Health Unit Nurses' Strike If the funding of health units is the issue, I'm certainly concerned that the amount of money it would cost to pay MR. GURNETT: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a question the nurses parity with hospital nurses is not being seriously to the Minister of Social Services and Community Health addressed. My question to the minister is whether he has with regard to the public health units. My question is any information as to whether parents with new babies who whether the minister has any information or any study which would normally be attending well baby clinics in their own June 3, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 1287 communities are having these babies seen, as necessary, head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS through alternatives such as appointments with doctors during (reversion) this period when the nurses are on strike. MR. SHABEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to add DR. WEBBER: Mr. Speaker, there are a variety of ways to the introductions that were made earlier and introduce in which alternative services are being provided. Certainly, three individuals with a very keen interest in Resolution 18 the doctors in many instances are involved in things such who are here today. Two are from the East Prairie settlement. as immunization, which would previously have been done Maurice L'Hirondelle is here, and Maurice is a past president through the health units. Neighbouring health units are of the Federation of Metis Settlements. Also here is Richard involved in providing those services. There are services that L'Hirondelle, who is a past chairman of the East Prairie are gradually coming back; they're now offering a prenatal settlement association. With us today in your gallery is Fred class, for example, in the Minburn-Vermilion Health Unit. Dumont, the mayor of High Prairie. He's here as a keen As I mentioned earlier, a number of nurses, around 40 out observer of today's debate, since the town of High Prairie of the 200, I believe, are back at work and providing is a close neighbour of the Gift Lake, Big Prairie, and services as best they can. There's no doubt that services East Prairie settlements. Would those three individuals please have been disrupted in many of the eight health units. On stand and receive the welcome of the Assembly. the other hand, there has been take-up in filling the gap by either doctors, the neighbouring health units, or the families themselves. head: GOVERNMENT MOTIONS

MR. GURNETT: A supplementary question. My question 18. Moved by Mr. Lougheed: specifically was whether the minister had any information Whereas section 43 of the Constitution Act, 1982, provides as to whether the take-up has been adequate and whether that an amendment to the Constitution of Canada may be there's any problem of babies not being seen that should made by proclamation issued by the Governor General under be seen with a certain frequency. In the same area, I wonder the Great Seal of Canada only where so authorized by if the minister has any information about whether or not resolutions of the Senate and House of Commons and of there's been adequate and satisfactory take-up with regard the legislative assembly of each province to which the to the provision of blood pressure clinics for senior citizens, amendment applies; who often have difficulty getting from their smaller com• And whereas the Constitution of Canada includes the Alberta munities to centres where a doctor may be available. Act; And whereas Metis settlement lands have been set aside DR. WEBBER: Mr. Speaker, I don't have any specific under the provisions of the Metis Betterment Act to better information or any concerns along the line that the hon. the general welfare of the Metis population of Alberta; member for Spirit River-Fairview has mentioned that have And whereas the Metis people of Alberta, and particularly been brought to me. I would just repeat that certainly those members of settlement associations who have developed services have been disrupted in a number of those health land on settlements, desire protection of a land base for units. On the other hand, a number of services are being themselves and for the benefit of future generations for provided by other health units, doctors, and other sources. communal use; But I could take that as notice and follow up. And whereas Metis people seek to enlarge their jurisdiction over the management of Metis settlement lands and the MR. GURNETT: I'd certainly appreciate the information. governance of their own affairs; A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Given the increasing And whereas if enlarged jurisdiction is to be achieved, Metis cost, which we don't seem to know exactly, of having people have the responsibility to determine distinctive meth• patients in active treatment hospitals that would normally ods and institutions for such management and governance; be at home and the cost of the admitted disruptions that And whereas the government of Alberta and representatives he's talked about, is the minister prepared to meet with the from the Metis settlements worked together, under the chair• health unit boards to urge them to settle the dispute by manship of Dr. J. W. Grant MacEwan, to address the paying nurses at the same rate as nurses who are working current needs and concerns of Metis people, particularly in hospitals, as they're requesting? those who have chosen to live on and develop the settlements; Be it resolved that the Legislative Assembly: DR. WEBBER: Mr. Speaker, as Minister of Social Services and Community Health, I have no involvement in the dispute, (1) Endorse the commitment of the government of Alberta in the negotiation process. The Health Unit Association of to grant existing Metis settlement lands now known as Alberta are negotiating on behalf of the health units, and Big Prairie (Peavine), Caslan (Buffalo Lake), East the United Nurses of Alberta are negotiating for the nurses. Prairie, Elizabeth, Fishing Lake. Keg River (Paddle They have a process in place, and there is no role for the Prairie), Kikino, and Utikuma Lake (Gift Lake), to the Minister of Social Services and Community Health in that Metis settlement associations or to such appropriate process. Metis corporate entities as may be determined, to be held on behalf of the Metis people of Alberta; (2) Endorse the grant of existing Metis settlement lands: ORDERS OF THE DAY (a) in fee simple reserving thereout all mines and minerals; (b) without prejudice to existing Metis settlement lit• MR. SPEAKER: Might we revert briefly to Introduction igation; of Special Guests? (c) without affecting existing interests of third parties or certain specified interests of the province of HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. Alberta; and 1288 ALBERTA HANSARD June 3, 1985

(d) subject to the continuing legislative authority of in due course, in favour of the settlements, this government the province of Alberta; will honour that court proceeding. (3) Recognize the principle that, as a first step toward the Mr. Speaker, I also refer hon. members to the provisions grant of existing Metis settlement lands, it is the in section 2 (c) and (d). This grant in fee simple is responsibility of the Metis to define and propose: (c) without affecting existing interests of third parties (a) fair and democratic criteria for membership in or certain specified interests of the province of settlement associations and for settlement lands Alberta. allocation to individual members of settlement Perhaps one could use, by way of example, existing power associations; and lines that go through the settlements. Finally, (b) the composition of democratic governing bodies (d) subject to the continuing legislative authority of for the management and governance of Metis the province of Alberta. settlements; The concept there, of course, is that the position as this (4) Endorse the commitment of the government of Alberta moves forward should be that the surface rights of those to propose a revised Metis Betterment Act to the living on the settlements equate, aside from the different Legislative Assembly once appropriate criteria have way in which the process may evolve, with the rights of been established for settlement membership, land allo• other Albertans, and that would mean the benefits and with cation, and the composition of governing bodies capable it too, obviously, the responsibilities that go with land of holding land; ownership. (5) Endorse the commitment of the government of Alberta Section 3 provides what really is the approach that we struggled with for such a long time as to how to do it and to introduce, once a revised Metis Betterment Act has how to do it their way. We came to the conclusion that been enacted, a resolution to amend the Alberta Act the way to do this was to pass it by way of resolution by proclamation issued by Her Excellency the Governor first, hopefully with the approval of this Assembly, and General under the Great Seal of Canada to grant an then we leave it to the Metis people on the settlements to estate in fee simple in existing Metis settlement lands define and propose, first of all, to the Metis settlement associations or to such appro• (a) fair and democratic criteria for membership in priate Metis corporate entities as may be determined settlement associations and for settlement lands on behalf of the Metis people of Alberta, in accordance allocation to individual members of settlement with this resolution. associations; and (b) the composition of democratic governing bodies MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, I'm honoured to move for the management and governance of Metis Motion 18 standing in my name on the Order Paper. It settlements. doesn't overstate the motion to say that it's historic or to In short, Mr. Speaker, to pass the resolution here, hopefully say it's unique; but perhaps even more importantly, it's a today, and then call upon the settlements and the federation reflection of our judgment of the views of the majority of of settlements to consider the situation and to respond to the citizens towards fair and equitable action for a minority us in as much detail and finality as possible, so that we within this province. It's a day which many have waited can respond to provision 3 of this resolution. After that's for a long time. It was requested for many years. Meeting done, the government of Alberta is committed, with the after meeting and discussion after discussion were sought, passage of this resolution, to propose a revised Metis and throughout all this I, personally, have hoped we could Betterment Act to the Assembly. I might just add a personal come to an approach which was pragmatic and fair but still word; I have some difficulty with the word "betterment". was a step forward for the citizens of our province who I would trust that as we frame the resolution, we could live on the Metis settlements. come up with a word that doesn't have the concept that I Mr. Speaker, the objective of the resolution is to provide and some others have, but a Metis Settlements Act to the a legal and an assured land base to those citizens who live Legislative Assembly on the Metis settlements, to remedy an inequity that's existed for settlement membership, land allocation, and the for many years, but to do it in a way that they, living on composition of governing bodies capable of holding the settlements, want us to do it — their way — and to land; meet their requests in an appropriate fashion of legal land Finally, the resolution rights in a communal way. We've concluded that they are (5) [Endorses] the commitment of the Government of unfairly vulnerable without such an action as contained in Alberta to introduce, once a revised Metis Bet• this resolution. terment Act has been enacted, a resolution to Through you to the members, Mr. Speaker, the provisions amend the Alberta Act by proclamation issued by and conditions of the resolution provide to grant the existing Her Excellency the Governor General under the Metis settlement lands in fee simple; that is, the surface Great Seal of Canada, to grant an estate in fee rights. It is a very important phrase in the resolution. simple in existing Metis settlement lands to the Secondly, to recognize that the history of Alberta involved Metis settlement associations or to such appro• homesteaders coming here from all parts of the world, and priate Metis corporate entities as may be deter• the homesteaders did not receive the mineral rights. They mined on behalf of the Metis people of Alberta, were reserved from the homesteaders, and the equity within in accordance with this resolution. Alberta, therefore, was to reserve "thereout all mines and Mr. Speaker, this is quite an approach. With regard to minerals" from the Metis settlements, but again, to do this the Metis Betterment Act, there is, of course, a number of in a fair and equitable way by being "without prejudice to recommendations that came out of a document, the Report existing Metis settlement litigation." We recognize in the of the MacEwan Joint Metis-Government Committee to resolution the existence of that litigation. Of course, as I've Review the Metis Betterment Act and Regulations. We're said before in this Legislature, if the litigation should be, working these out in discussion. I note that at the outset June 3, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 1289

of that report is a statement made by the distinguished to improve the progress with the Indian bands. We have Albertan, Grant MacEwan. In submitting the document to made some considerable progress since that time. Over the the government years we've also worked with the Metis Association. I'm We have done our best to ensure that any proposals sure the Minister responsible for Native Affairs will make for a new Act would place the major responsibility for some observations in his sum-up with regard to the many the political, social, economic and cultural development items of progress we've made. In this case again, I say of the Settlements firmly on the shoulders of the that much more needs to be done and can be done. Settlements themselves. I should mention, though, the land tenure program we That's the concept, and one that we fully endorse. brought in in 1975 for the Metis Association. These ref• The significance of what we're doing here with regard erences are obviously to the Metis people not living within to the Alberta Act should be mentioned. I'm not sure if the settlements. The land tenure program, which was estab• members are aware — I'm not even sure how many Albertans lished in 1975, enabled individuals in certain isolated com• are aware of the Alberta Act per se. The Alberta Act munities in northern Alberta to obtain titles to a parcel of essentially establishes the Constitution related to this province land for residential use at a nominal cost, depending on and provides for the transfer of the natural resources in the length of residence. The program has been in effect in 1930 and not much else. In short, the Alberta Act has not eight communities with over 1,100 lots being developed and been used before for a purpose that we are debating here 468 titles being issued, benefitting approximately 1,700 in this Assembly. The fact that it hasn't been used before people. We've had suggestions from the Metis Association should not in any way dissuade us, members of the Legislative for modification. I think it's appropriate that we should Assembly, from doing so. respond to their requests and have discussions with them Going back to the order in council in 1960 on the Wolf to make this positive program even more effective. In Lake settlement, when it was first brought to me by the addition to that, we've had community leases. The government leadership of the Metis settlements, they said: "Mr. Premier, has provided 25-year miscellaneous leases to 11 communities how can we be assured of the position we are in, as a in northern Alberta in which native rural subdivisions have minority in this province, if in 1960 in this building an been created. Then we had the specific case of the Grande order in council could wipe out a settlement over our Cache co-operatives, which involved a number of citizens objection and force the relocation of a number of families? there. How can we be assured that simply a new Metis Betterment We're involved with the Metis people in a wide variety Act or a new Metis Settlements Act will be enough? Will of situations. They're involved in either an isolated com• future Legislatures not be able to change and alter it?" Our munity, a mixed community, or an urban community. We precedent in 1960 with the Wolf Lake settlement was there. received a recent submission from the Metis Association of I suppose it is part of any concept that develops these Alberta, delivered to me by their president on May 14, days that there is no one individual person you could point responding to my request that arose out of the meeting we to and say it was his idea or their idea. But out of it came held with them on May 4 to discuss how they'd move the view that maybe there is another way. Why couldn't forward in terms of the conduct of their own affairs. They we amend the Alberta Act, which then requires the federal made a reasonable request to us, which we are considering, government to amend it with us, if you like, in conjunction for a joint Metis/cabinet committee and appropriate working with us. Therefore, any change that might be made in the groups to be established to examine a number of elements, future would require the approval of both this Legislature one of which is, and I quote from paragraph 1.2: and the federal government. That certainly provides very, the feasibility of and options for establishing a land very important protection. I believe it's right. It's the right base for The Metis in the Province of Alberta. time to do it. Mr. Speaker, there may be other times when We have that under active consideration. a similar approach should be considered. But in my view, I want to say a word, too, about the constitutional process this is the right time. we've been undertaking with regard to the aboriginal peoples. In moving this resolution, I think it's appropriate to give I was party to a provision in the Constitution which spe• some background with regard our government's relationships cifically recognized the Metis under the Constitution of with the aboriginal peoples of the province. I think we've Canada for the first time. I'm pleased we did that. Those made a great deal of progress since 1971. We would have of us who were involved, including the Metis leaders who hoped for more. We developed the concept with the former were involved at that time back in 1980-81, all recognized government — and I remember being Leader of the Oppo• that we were dealing with existing rights and that there sition and observing this — of the need to have one minister would be some difficult discussions ahead. But the recog• who didn't have other ministerial responsibilities to be nition that Metis were part of the aboriginal peoples in the responsible for liaison of native affairs matters. We have sense of existing rights was there as well. We've had a had a string of distinguished citizens who served in that number of conferences that followed up on aboriginal rights capacity. The current minister certainly fits that very well in the Constitution. The native groups that appeared and has worked very hard. I hope he will wrap up this in '83, '84, and '85 had very differing views from time to resolution today. time. Certainly, for the most part the Alberta treaty Indians With regard to the treaty Indians in the province, they were not prepared to be part of the process, Mr. Speaker. look at their position of having treaty rights — it's interesting They wished to work out improvements in their living that I'd use the phrase "the government of Canada"; they conditions directly bilaterally with the federal government. use the phrase "Her Majesty the Queen in right of Canada". We have been supportive of that and have met with them That's the way they perceive their treaty rights. A few subsequent to the conference in Ottawa. years ago our government made a decision, which we stated With regard to self-government, it's apparent to us that here in the Legislative Assembly, to shift our approach with one criterion which is not necessarily required but certainly regard to the treaty Indian people from the Indian Association assists self-government is a land base. With regard to the of Alberta to the bands and work on a band-to-band basis debate we had in Ottawa in early April, there was consid• 1290 ALBERTA HANSARD June 3, 1985 erable concern on our part with the definition of the phrase which to build and maintain the social, cultural "self-government". Frankly, Mr. Speaker, as I've said on and economic strength of the Metis settlers; a number of occasions and believe I've answered here in (3) given a unique culture and the land base of this House, we do question the process. We question whether the Metis Settlement Areas, the Metis can best or not progress will be made in that way. As a result of achieve the mutual goal of self-reliant integration, that, when we concluded the participation in the aboriginal without homogenization, by a legislative frame• conference in Ottawa in early April, we sat down and said: work enabling the maximum practicable local self- could we do something in a more concrete, specific way government of the land base; to make progress, not in any symbolic way but in a real (4) it would not be practical to include in Metis way? Out of that came the determination that led to the settlement local government the full scope of resolution that's here today. powers required to deal with all matters of health, I want to emphasize that this move is a first move. education, social services and economic devel• There are other things we can do. I've mentioned the opment, but even in these cases the uniqueness modification of the land tenure arrangement and the review of the culture and its problem solving traditions with the Metis Association not on the settlements with regard should be respected by the Government bodies to a possible land base, recognizing how difficult that will exercising the power. be, and determining whether there is any feasibility in doing A very important report, Mr. Speaker. So that is the so. background for the resolution that's before the House. There I want to move to the settlement situation for the balance are a number of hurdles. I guess the biggest hurdle was of my remarks. In proposing this resolution, Mr. Speaker, the "how". But before getting into the how, I should note I believe it will be useful to review the history. The Metis that we have had many, many requests to consider the colonies, now settlements, were established in the late 1930s Alberta Act approach from the Alberta Federation of Metis in central and northern Alberta pursuant to the Metis Popu• Settlement Associations. Let me quote a letter of November lation Betterment Act. These colonies were part of a com• 8, 1984, from the current president, Joseph Courtepatte. prehensive scheme to improve the general welfare of the He signed it Joseph; I always call him Joe. Metis population of the province. There currently exist eight On behalf of the Federation's Constitutional Com• Metis settlements that represent a very unique form of land mittee, I would like to request a meeting with you to tenure in Canada. The Metis people were not allocated discuss an added dimension to a possible "made-in- reserves as status Indians, nor did they have squatter rights Alberta" agreement. This involves an innovative on Crown lands. They were provided with land or money approach. scrip, but this initiative was not successful. The Alberta Act could be amended to include a set On February 27, 1933, this very Legislature passed a of principles recognizing the Metis people of Alberta. resolution that the government should make an inquiry into That was discussed and then fully considered. The issue and concerning the problems of health, education, and was how. Like any unique or novel idea, there are always general welfare of the Metis. This resolution resulted in the naysayers. There are always, with due respect, Attorney the establishment in 1934 of the Ewing commission, which General, the lawyers. But there's always a way, and a way presented its report to the Legislature on February 15, 1936. could be found. The way that can be found is to consider This brought into being the Legislative Assembly of Alberta a transfer that can respond to the communal nature of the enacting the Metis Population Betterment Act on November settlements but do it fairly. But how could government or 22, 1938, "for the betterment of the general welfare of the even this Legislature pass an amendment to the Alberta metis population of the Province." Act, which was my first choice to be doing today, until we could develop the appropriate framework of democratic The Act provided for the Lieutenant Governor in Council institutions and membership and fairness? to set aside suitable unoccupied Crown lands for the set• So we said: Let's do it a step at a time. Let's pass the tlement of the members of the associations. There were 12 resolution now: Let's call on the settlements to respond. possible sites. I mentioned the history with regard to what Let's take what they respond to, assess its fairness and occurred there. In 1982 we established the joint committee equity for all involved, present legislation, a new Metis under Dr. Grant MacEwan to make recommendations in an Settlements Act, and having approved that, then pass the advisory capacity to the Municipal Affairs minister. That Alberta Act amendment and call upon the government of was done last year. It reported in July of last year, and it Canada to respond positively to it. I'm sure they will. That contained a number of recommendations. was the idea, and I think it's an excellent one. It combines Mr. Speaker, the conclusions in the MacEwan report the features of fairness for those who are not on the are important to have on the record, because they form a settlements, equity for those that are, and respect for third backdrop to the matters involved in this resolution. I want party interests but carries forward with this protection in a to read from the conclusions: way that will, with, this amendment to the Alberta Act, We believe that in drafting legislation and developing provide just that, for literally as long as we can foresee. policy related to the Metis, the following principles I conclude with these observations. I believe this move and assumptions should apply: is far more than symbolic: It will have a major positive (1) the Metis represent a unique cultural group impact with regard to working together with the people in Canada, an aboriginal people recognized in the involved. I met with them, together with the minister, just Canadian Constitution, and a group that played a few days ago and pointed out that there are, like anything a major role in the development of Western in this situation that we work in here, going to be com• Canada; plexities, difficulties, perhaps some frustrations, and maybe (2) because the culture and lifestyle of the Metis even some setbacks. But I believe that the resolution, if it settlements is inextricably linked to the land, a can receive the support of this Assembly, will show our Metis settlement land base is the cornerstone on confidence in the people involved, our confidence that they June 3, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 1291 can in fact, as we believe and as they believe, fully conduct In terms of the detail, my judgment is that the people their affairs, that they will be able to do so well with this who are involved will judge the quality of the resolution land base, that we can work it out with them, and that not — quality as to how it will affect the lives of a number only will they have the strength that goes with the ownership of individuals and what will happen in the next few years. rights to the land but the strength that will flow from that As I look over the audience in this Legislature, I see to being in control of their own destiny. a number of very good friends that I made a number of I realize that there are others involved that look on this years ago — people with wisdom, concern for their fellow and say, "When is our time?" Yes, that's fair. But let's man, concern for the community, and concern for their get this one done, and let's get it done well. I haven't any future. I think of names like Adrian Hope, my good friend doubt, Mr. Speaker, that in the time I've been in this and a good friend of many people in this Legislature — position, in attempting to read the public about a bold move, unbelievable wisdom about people, understanding about oth• whether it's a grain elevator in another province or it's a ers, concern for others, and compassion that is extended in move with senior citizens or it's this one, Albertans are each and every day of his life. I know there are others in essentially very fair-minded people. They will say this is the gallery as well — Poitras, Erasmus, Daniels — who the right course. It's at the forefront of action in this nature have worked hard to bring about what has happened today. in Canada, and it should be. We're in the position to do I have confidence that if there is total support from all the it. We're in the position to take this historic first step. I individuals in whatever role they play in the settlements, believe we'll all be very proud that we're party to it. I what we have passed in the Legislature today will work, personally wish the people in the settlements the very best because they'll make it work. in the future. Over the years I've found the residents of the Metis Thank you. settlements very humble and honest people who want to serve not only their local people but their province as well. MR. SPEAKER: Before recognizing the hon. leader of the When people are honest and humble, they'll make it work. Representative Party, might we revert briefly to introduction That's my second point today, Mr. Speaker. I have faith of some further special guests? in the people who are involved. Whatever we do, if we can pave the way for self-government and self-determination HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. here, good. Let's do it. The third point I want to make is with regard to the more historic aspect and my involvement over a number head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS of years. I think back in terms of the Metis Settlements (reversion) Act in the '60s and the early part of 1970, when discussions occurred. One of the very frustrating things I had as a MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I found out that a couple of minister and a member of the Legislature was that the Metis people are here from my riding that are involved on the Settlements Act kept getting kicked around from one com• executive of Local 1885 of the Metis Association of Alberta, mittee to another. The most frustrating feeling I had when which I might point out is a new organization set up in I left government in 1971 was that we never dealt with the last two years. They're doing excellent work. I'd like that issue. All we did was set up another committee. I Stan Plante and Randy Layton of the Metis Association think that was the most unfortunate thing that happened. Local 1885 to stand up and receive the traditional welcome I appreciate what Dr. MacEwan said in his report. I of the House. certainly urge the government, though, to take that Act seriously, to deal with it and meet the needs of the people in the settlements at this time, not to let it ride like a cork head: GOVERNMENT MOTIONS without direction on a sea of the unknown. It is part of (continued) the lives of Albertans, and we have a responsibility as legislators. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, I wish to rise and give I started going to the Metis settlements back in 1964, my support to this resolution before the Legislature. My over 20 years ago, and I recall that first experience very remarks are brief but supportive. I want to support the much. It was something new for me as a person from resolution on the basis of three items. First of all, as a southern Alberta. We had the native reserves in the south. member of the opposition one of the first things to do when All of a sudden I came to Edmonton as a young legislator, an item comes on the Order Paper is to talk to the people and Mr. Manning at that time said, "I'd like you to visit that are directly involved and are going to be directly the settlements and see what is happening." I remember affected by the resolution. I had my staff do that, and I going to Kikino on my first visit. The first person I visited found a very good response. I certainly want to offer my was Mr. Hope. I remember going with a bit of fear of the congratulations to the minister and to the Premier for having unknown, because I said: what am I really going to see? open discussion with the association and the various people I really didn't know. I must confess a bit of fear. I remember that have been affected, because the response was that there that after being there for about 15 or 20 minutes and meeting has been an open door and that adequate discussion has with Mr. Hope and a group from the community, I never occurred. I certainly am willing to extend my appreciation felt more at home. I never felt more pleased to be part of to the government in that type of action. Mr. Courtepatte's the Metis of Alberta. response was that there was consultation at every level and Ever since then I've had a warm, compassionate feeling that the federation is very pleased with the resolution as a for their goals and endeavours. I'd hoped to be able to first step toward Metis self-government. That is certainly assist somewhere in my life. I hope that being able to stand a good relationship between government and the people it in my place and support the resolution today is part of represents. On that basis I support the resolution. something I can return for the great compassion and under• 1292 ALBERTA HANSARD June 3, 1985

standing and learning I received as a young member of the One of the interests of the people throughout the province Legislature at that time. is the area of education. By improving the educational On that basis in terms of an historic involvement, that's opportunities for our children we improve their economic my third point of support. I wish the Metis Settlements, opportunities. I'm pleased that Fred Dumont was here earlier, all those good people on the settlements who want better because he had a keen interest and heavy involvement in things for themselves and for all of us in this province of the Northland School Division Act revisions that provided Alberta, the best of luck. Any way that I as a member of for 28 separate school boards throughout northern Alberta. this Legislature or a private citizen in Alberta can assist So people not just on the settlements but in isolated northern with the growth and the enhancement of their goals, I'm communities on reserves are now involved in the day-to• prepared to do that. I congratulate the Premier and the day matters of running their own school boards, and that government in making this major step today. We look is so very important. forward to good things that will come out of it. The activities through the Department of Advanced Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Education are vitally important, whether it's by way of Alberta Vocational Centres at Grouard and Lac La Biche MR. SHABEN: Mr. Speaker, I'm honoured to be able to in terms of the greater opportunity for training and retraining participate in this debate on Resolution 18 today. This is settlement members. Recently decisions were made to pro• certainly an historic day in this Assembly. It comes some vide courses that provide a direct leap into meaningful 52 years after a resolution was passed in this same Assembly, employment, such as the registered nursing aide program, and it's been referred to a step forward. In my view it's where graduates who have come from the settlements are a giant step forward. It has resulted from the efforts of now actively employed in our hospitals and contributing in individuals who have been involved on the settlements in their own communities. The apprenticeship program for attempting to ensure a land base for their children and carpenters — a lot of people said you can't run that kind grandchildren. I congratulate those who have been involved of program at a vocational centre, that it has to be done over the years. A number of them are constituents of mine, at a college. But it's been done effectively in the vocational and I'm very pleased that they are here today. centres, and as a result members of the settlements have been able to get their apprenticeship training, go out and What are we talking about in terms of land? A lot of work in the marketplace and provide for their families and, the urban members of the Assembly may not be able to in fact, help in terms of building their own homes with relate to the amount of land. I think it's important to get the support of our housing programs. So all these day-to• a perspective on what we are talking about. It's 1.28 million day items, along with this key decision of this Assembly acres of land. This land was set aside a number of years today, are part of the ongoing evolution of the people who ago for the benefit of the Metis people. How much land live on the settlements and those who will come afterward. is that? It's pretty close to the size of Prince Edward Island. There remains a challenge, Mr. Speaker, to the members It's almost the same size as the state of Delaware in the of the federation. The Premier referred to it under sections United States. So it is very significant in terms of the land 3(a) and (b) of the resolution. I know the leaders of the involved. For rural folks land is really important. I'm not settlement associations have been wrestling with 3(a) and saying that it's not important for people from the urban (b) in order to determine a fair and democratic way of centres, but I think people who are close to the soil have assuring membership for people on the settlements. I under• a greater feel for the soil and the importance of the stand that you spent three very exciting and interesting days preservation of that land. This resolution today is a giant working back and forth through this very problem, and I step toward protecting that land for the Metis people of congratulate you for the work. That is a key element to Alberta. the success of today's resolution. I'm particularly pleased because over many years I've Secondly, a fair and equitable method of allocating lands. had the opportunity to have as neighbours members of the It puts the onus, Mr. Speaker, on the leadership of the settlements of Gift Lake, East Prairie, and Big Prairie. settlements to treat the citizens who live or plan to live on We've had our discussions over the years — sometimes the settlements in a fair and equitable way. Sometimes there heated, sometimes friendly, but always constructive. This is a tendency, not with the settlement associations necessarily resolution is so very important to the people who live on but often with other organizations, to have favouritism or the settlements, because it assists them in planning for their special treatment for some people. Knowing the leaders who children, in planning for the various stages toward greater have been involved in this process over the years, I feel self-government. confident that fair treatment and an equitable way of dealing Over the years self-government has evolved on the with land allocation and tenure will be achieved and set in settlements. I know because I've been close to the settlement motion. councils and had many discussions in terms of the moves Mr. Speaker, as I indicated when I stood, I'm really and the decisions that have been made on behalf of the pleased to be a member of a government caucus and a settlers. This resolution sets the stage for greater self- government and an Assembly that will make this sort of government and greater autonomy in the affairs of the people resolution become a fact in the history of our. province. who live on the settlements. One of the great strengths of this province is the diverse There remain the bread and butter items that all of us groups that make up the very fabric of this province and continue to be interested in and that continue to be areas this nation, whether they have come from other lands or we work toward improving. Education for our children and they are our aboriginal people. This is a part of the very basic areas such as roads, utility services, housing, and strength of Alberta. Alberta is special in that sense, because health care: all of these remain part of the ongoing work we have always recognized that this was a part of our that needs to be done. I think this resolution today helps strength. So I'm pleased and would like to congratulate the give members of the settlement a greater impetus to increase Premier on introducing Resolution 18. I urge all members their efforts. to support this resolution with enthusiasm. June 3, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 1293

Thank you very much. the settlements listed here. I wonder, and I certainly hope it's not the case, if there's an implication there that we MR. GURNETT: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to rise in support approach land base actions more hesitantly when an area of Motion 18 this afternoon as well and begin by adding has significant known mineral and oil possibilities. my compliments to the tireless work of the Metis leadership Mr. Speaker, the heart of this motion, as the Minister in this province and specifically to the efforts of the Fed• of Housing was saying just before, is certainly section 3. eration of Metis Settlement Associations. I can see from Despite all the very good intentions of the motion, what my contact even over the last little while that an incredible we really do there is deliver a significant challenge to the amount of work on the part of the Metis leadership has Metis people to settle some things. By how they've worked gone into assuring people [of] their rights and security in and the results they've produced over the years, they've this province. I think it's something that needs to be saluted, shown us that they're probably up to that challenge, but I recognized, and admired, and I hope we'll see much more certainly don't envy their having to now go through a of that in the years ahead. process of determining the criteria with regard to the three It seems to me there's no question that we should be areas covered in section 3 of the motion. I wonder how encouraged by the motion that's before us, and we should we'll determine success with regard to that. I'm sure there certainly recognize it as a step in the right direction. As will be some fascinating and very difficult discussions ahead the native affairs critic for the Official Opposition, I'm very with regard to that. I also wonder whether we as a government pleased to be able to indicate our support for what's shown will be able to look forward to providing some particular in this motion. Also as an MLA from northern Alberta, support. It seems to me that resolving the issues in section it's a pleasure to be able to support it. As I rise and support 3, Mr. Speaker, is going to call for some significant it, I can't help but think that my predecessor as MLA for resources, and I wonder if there's going to be some assistance Spirit River-Fairview would probably be very pleased to available to help with that particular challenge. see the motion before us too. I know that Grant Notley's With regard to some other areas that aren't touched on work on behalf of Metis people in this province was by the motion but that I think will be dealt with by the something that was widely recognized, and his support was people as they're working their way through the motion always there. I'm certainly looking forward to being a and trying to provide some answers, I also wonder what supportive person and working with the Metis leadership kind of position we're going to be willing to take with in this province as well in the time ahead as we move regard to groups such as the Metis development branch of forward from this motion, I hope, to more and more positive Municipal Affairs and the Metis betterment fund and where actions on behalf of this part of our population in the jurisdiction of that fund is going to end up. As I said province. earlier, I don't envy the people that are going to have the hard job ahead of working out the concrete details of what What we have in this motion, Mr. Speaker, is one more this motion is going to mean, but they certainly have my small piece of a movement to end a paternalistic kind of support, as I know they have the support of many others legislation with regard to aboriginal people in this country here. and in this province. I think it's important for us to continue Mr. Speaker, I have certainly appreciated and been to pursue the full resolution of the key issues of land base impressed with the commitment by the leadership of the and self-determination for aboriginal peoples and specifically Metis people I've seen demonstrated in this province over for the Metis people we're looking at today. I look forward the years. I'm impressed not only with the commitment but to hearing more in the near future about where we stand also with the ability that's obviously there. In supporting on this issue in general from the Premier and from the this motion, I want to compliment their very good work minister responsible. I think it's a key issue for our time in pursuing their goals and their determination to get results, in this country and something that has been talked about and also not only to look back and provide those kinds of many times here. compliments but, as I look at the challenges that are created There are certainly areas where we recognize ongoing by this motion, to look ahead and wish them the very best problems. While it's good to compliment what we have of luck and, as I said, the support of all of us who think before us today, we should also remember some of the this whole area of a land base and self-determination for concerns we have; for example, the situation at Little Buffalo. our aboriginal peoples is a vital issue for the years ahead. I think we need to see legislation continuing to move toward the time when these important issues of land base and self- MR. DROBOT: Mr. Speaker, as MLA for the constituency determination are resolved in a way that's as satisfactory of St. Paul, it is my pleasure and, I believe, obligation to as possible for the greatest number of the aboriginal people participate in the debate of this resolution. The Metis culture in this province. was firmly entrenched in our northeastern Alberta area even I certainly have some questions, and as the speakers before Alberta became a province. The early pioneer mis• before me have indicated, there's a lot of detail and a lot sionary. Father Lacombe, established the original town of of things still to be worked on. I want to add my voice, St. Paul as a Metis farm colony before the turn of the Mr. Speaker, to those that are saying they look forward to century, inviting Metis from all over the northwest. The finding out a little bit more about some of the areas that effects of that early settlement are still evident today. After are not specifically addressed by this motion but also need the area was thrown open to homesteaders in 1909, the attention. For example, this motion relates to something Metis had to move away, settling at Kikino and the largest under 10 percent of the Metis people in the province, those group at Fishing Lake, which was at that time a designated living on the eight settlements that are involved. There is forest reserve and Crown land. From the early Red River still a large number of people who are landless, in a sense, settlements, the history of the Metis people has been for and I think action that is as strong and definitive on behalf certain land rights. Although the details of the struggle have of those people is very important. They're not particularly changed, the issues are basically the same. considered by this motion. Also, I have some question about The Metis people may be found in all areas of Alberta: the fact that the settlement at Wolf Lake isn't included in in large cities, small isolated communities, and on the eight 1294 ALBERTA HANSARD June 3, 1985

settlements, such as Fishing Lake. But no matter where the questions of land ownership in the settlements and the they are, there remains a strong tie to the land and the desire of the Metis people to manage their affairs but would natural environment. Today the land bond is closely linked not diminish the province's responsibility to the Metis, and to the identity of the people who have lived off that land our many provincial programs would remain intact. for several generations. Mr. Speaker, I have sat at the Mr. Speaker, we have come a long way, but we have kitchen table in Metis homes, enjoyed their meal or coffee, a long way to go. Let's continue to work with the Metis and listened to their concerns regarding a land base and people toward expanding their rights and responsibilities. their right to be masters of their own destiny, own the land We must continue to seek solutions to those difficult ques• they reside on, and be part of Alberta as Albertans. They tions. I urge all members to support this resolution to have always enjoyed a close, communal lifestyle and should advance the Metis cause, which is self-reliance on a secure be allowed to do so on the settlements if they so desire. land base. Let's tackle this responsibility with co-operation, Let's take Fishing Lake, which is one of the smaller enthusiasm, and innovation. It is what these people have settlements in northeastern Alberta, in the St. Paul con• been requesting and proves that this government is interested stituency. The land on the settlement is submarginal, gray- in the concerns of the people of this province. In co• wooded soil, hilly, rocky, and mainly suited for grazing. operation with the Metis people and their associations, But the settlements do not qualify for programs to improve obstacles can and will be overcome. the pasture land as they do not own the land. Until we Thank you. amended legislation, the Metis farmers did not qualify for farm fuel rebates because they were classed as community, MR. ADAIR: Mr. Speaker, I'm honoured, too, and pleased not individual, farmers. This small settlement at Fishing to be able to participate in the debate of Resolution 18. Lake consists of 93,000 acres. The resolution before us Before getting into that, I'd like to correct the hon. Member would give these people the protection of a land base for for St. Paul, recognizing that my quiet manner may have their betterment and for their future generations. caused the issue to evade him. I had the honour and privilege Mr. Speaker, anyone who has looked at the history of to work with the native people of the province of Alberta the Metis people can immediately understand the importance as the Minister responsible for Native Affairs from 1971 of land to these people. Their history is one of settlements, to 1975. originally from the Selkirk colony in Manitoba. Then the Having said that, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to say that I Hudson's Bay Company moved them and later the Canadian stand on my feet for a number of reasons, one of which government. Unfortunately, until 1970 Alberta's record is is the fact that the Paddle Prairie-Keg River settlement is not much better, as they were removed from the Wolf Lake in the constituency I represent. It's a settlement that was settlement to make way for the Primrose weapons base at created on May 9, 1939. That was four days before my Cold Lake. Since 1938 and the Metis Betterment Act, which 10th birthday, some years ago. It also encompasses a fair set aside land for settlements, the Alberta government and number of acres in the province of Alberta, 403,200 acres, the Metis have developed a truly unique relationship com• and on that particular settlement are 644 residents. pared to other provinces. Some of them and all of them are very, very special When I say this resolution offers us an important first to me. I'm going to mention some names, and in mentioning step, I think it's important to acknowledge how far we have names, I risk leaving some out. I think back to 1973 when, come to get to this point. Historically, I believe it is fair during the term I served as minister of northern development to say that the Metis did not always enjoy the same and native affairs, we were instrumental in working with opportunities as other Albertans. However, the Alberta the residents of the settlements and a gentleman by the government is working to help correct this by working co• name of Richard Poitras to create the very first settlement operatively with Metis leaders and Metis associations. I association. I've had the privilege as the Member for Peace have seen the benefits of government programs at the River to have not only the first president but one of the settlements: at Fishing Lake, a fine school at Sputinow; other presidents, Elmer Ghostkeeper, and then to have a water and sewer in the hamlet last year; the Transportation gentleman who is the council chairman, Albert Wanuch. I department has come through with a network of roads; want that on record so we've got the names there, Albert. health and social service programs; special consideration for In working with these good people, I guess you could say their aged; and rural home assistance. In 1975 we were we have had the privilege of working together for a common the first province to appoint a minister to deal solely with goal, working in the interests of the members and the native affairs. We have created a Metis development branch citizens of the settlements and all the other people in my and economic development programs. But the most important constituency. point is that the Metis people play a large role in the In my responsibilities at that time as minister for native administration and creation of these programs and must have affairs, I developed what I consider to be many, many good the opportunity to continue to do so. friends. Yes, we had some differences on occasion as to Mr. Speaker, the hon. Premier referred to the MacEwan what we might be doing rightly or wrongly. I can remember joint commission of 1984, which studied the question of getting chastised, if that's the right term, in my office by Metis land settlements, and their recommendations which what I'd like to refer to as the senator, Adrian Hope. He were included in that report. They are very commendable. set me in my place very vividly, very factually, and very Two statements from that report need repeating: first, that rightfully. We started talking about a number of things, the Metis are a unique cultural group, an aboriginal group Mr. Speaker, and one of them at that particular time was that played an important role in the development of western the case of the action that was commenced in 1974 and Canada; secondly, that their culture is limited to the land which is mentioned in 2(b) of this particular motion, that and that the settlements are the cornerstones of their strength. this resolution is "without prejudice to existing Metis set• I could go on and on, Mr. Speaker, but I know there tlement litigation." I would like to spend just a moment are other colleagues who wish to address the issue and its on that one. In my mind 1974 is a number of years ago, worthy principles. This resolution could see an answer to and we must get on with that. If there are some ways we June 3, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 1295 collectively can push that a little harder, I'd be really pleased members of the Assembly are aware, the Northern Alberta with that too. Development Council has the specific function of providing It says in point 3, "Recognize the principle that, as a a forum for public input by northern communities and first step . . ." My hon. colleague from Lesser Slave Lake citizens. Through regular public meetings across the north, said "a giant step" and took the words right out of my the council receives briefs on the whole spectrum of issues. notes. I, too, consider that to be a very giant step on behalf In turn the council acts as a policy adviser to government of the settlement residents. I want to say to all of those on topical and evolutionary northern concerns. In the past who have worked for this particular point in time and for native groups and communities have presented their briefs this resolution that it is a great day and I'm excited. I'm and concerns through the Northern Alberta Development as excited, I'm sure, as all of you who are sitting in the Council along with their visions for a better future. I've gallery and those at home who are waiting and watching encouraged them to continue doing so. I would like to note with interest as to what may come of this particular motion. that the issue of land settlement has always been fundamental I hope that as we look back over what has occurred to to native communities and one of the many concerns brought this point, and we look back with pride and with interest to the council in various briefs. as to what has occurred in the period 1971 to 1985, we In this light, the province has responded through a variety recognize a number of things have occurred. They have of mechanisms. The land tenure program off the settlements, not occurred without co-operation, work, dedication, and, as mentioned earlier, is an example of dealing with land in some cases, frustration. These things can work if we sit issues and their stabilization in a flexible way. The province down and talk to each other. has adjusted the nature and pace of land tenure depending The objective is to provide a legal land base, as the upon specific community needs and priorities. Community hon. Premier said a little earlier today, to remedy an inequity consultation has been an integral part of this legal and that's been in place for many, many years. I really want administrative process, and it should be continued in the each and every member of this Assembly to recognize that future. when we get to the point where we're going to be voting I can recall, Mr. Speaker, one of my proudest moments on it, it will be a great honour to the Metis people of as an MLA. I was participating in the sod-turning ceremony Alberta if that resolution is voted on in a unanimous fashion. of Leonara and Jim Mulawaka in their new home and I hope that's exactly what does occur. business in Anzac. This came about as a direct result of I can recall some of the discussions we had when we the land tenure program and enabled the community of were working with some of my colleagues in the constituency Anzac to grow and meet the needs of its citizens, young and old alike. about how you go about this. I look back to past president Elmer Ghostkeeper, and we had many, many discussions Mr. Speaker, let me turn in particular to the Metis about what could occur. When you look back, I think all settlements and their similar needs. It was interesting and informative to refer back to some of the literature written of those who were involved as presidents of the association, on the Metis people and the settlements. I'd recommend as members of that particular association executive, and the reading to all members of the Assembly three books on the settlement councils themselves, as we have reached this Metis people — in particular to the senator, Adrian Hope, particular point in time where we have point 3 that issues thank you for giving me this book many years ago — The the challenge — it's a heavy one, but it's a heavy one Metis People of Canada: a History, The East Prairie Metis, that's been accepted by your president, Joe, and, I'm sure, and Elizabeth Metis Settlement: a Local History. I'd like by all the members of your settlements. You can in fact to make reference to the three aims of the Alberta Federation take the time to look at exactly what may be necessary of Metis Settlements as described in Elizabeth Metis Set• when we talk about tlement. That goes back to the incorporation in 1971. I (a) fair and democratic criteria for membership in would like to quote directly, Mr. Speaker. It's referenced settlement associations and for settlement lands on page 8 of Elizabeth Metis Settlement: a Local History. allocation to individual members . . . and It had three objectives: (b) the composition of democratic governing bodies 1. To keep their land. for the management and governance of Metis 2. To obtain the benefits of their land's resources, settlements. as written in the Metis Betterment Act. That is without doubt a heavy responsibility and a challenge 3. To help the Councils get ready for local self- that I know you, individually and collectively, are prepared government. to accept, and for that I'm really pleased. It goes on, Mr. Speaker, and I'd like to continue with one Mr. Speaker, as I said a moment or two ago, I'm excited sentence on page 9: about the fact that many dreams and many efforts are about Now that the Settlements speak with one voice we are to be realized in this giant step forward — a first step, beginning to see changes that promise a strong and yes, but not the last step by any means. I urge unanimous bright future for all of us. support of Motion 18. To the hon. Premier and my colleague Mr. Speaker, I believe history will show that this day will the hon. minister of Native Affairs, my personal and sincere be known as the beginning of that bright future. congratulations. I should also pay special congratulations to The Metis settlements represent a unique cultural group all the previous presidents of the federation and its present in Canada, as is identified in the report of the MacEwan president, Joe Courtepatte, for an excellent job well done. Joint Committee to Review the Metis Betterment Act. My Keep up the good work. God bless you. compliments, Mr. Speaker, to the committee for the sincerity in addressing the issue, particularly that Metis culture and MR. WEISS: Mr. Speaker, in the capacity of chairman of life-style are inextricably linked to the land. Dr. MacEwan the Northern Alberta Development Council and as MLA points out perceptively that for the constituency of Lac La Biche-McMurray, representing a Metis settlement land base is the cornerstone on two of Alberta's eight Metis settlements, Kikino and Caslan, which to build and maintain the social, cultural and I am proud to rise to address this proposed resolution. As economic strength of the Metis settlers. 1296 ALBERTA HANSARD June 3, 1985

All eight Metis settlements lie within the area served In each settlement the community associations have by the Northern Alberta Development Council. Council established local housing authorities to priorize and deliver members have a history of close contact with the settlements. new houses. My Cree is not up to standard, so I won't I'm proud to say that Mr. Ernest Howse, who was introduced give you the authorities' names, Mr. Speaker. Yet I do a little earlier and is chairman of the Caslan Metis settlement know that they brokered housing programs with fiscal respon• community association, now sits on the council. Over the sibility and an eye to those residents most in need. The past 10 years 45 briefs from the Metis settlements have settlements have come a long way in improving their housing been presented to the Northern Alberta Development Coun• conditions while at the same time honing their administrative cil. In some cases, briefs were brought forward in the home skills along with the new opportunities being provided and community, and often settlement members travelled many upgrading their employment skills through the fully accredited miles to neighbouring centres to present their concerns. The carpentry training program such as through AVC, as was very first brief was given by Fishing Lake and dealt with mentioned earlier by the hon. Minister of Housing, a program housing and medical problems. Since then settlement spo- of which I am especially proud. At this time I would like kespeople have raised concerns and objectives regarding to thank all those who recognized the need and persevered water and sewer, policing, social problems, environmental to have it implemented. standards, road improvements, and economic development, The settlement councils themselves have become a sophis• among some of the other important issues. ticated order of municipal administration. The eight councils It is accurate to say that since 1980 Metis settlement have each developed five-year plans as tools to economic concerns have become evidently more complicated and their strategy and infrastructure improvements. Many have gone approaches more sophisticated with the settlements approach• beyond general plans to conduct economic studies, townsite ing tougher issues and accepting higher challenges. For plans, administrative model studies, and trades training example, the settlements were vigorously represented at a courses. The Caslan Metis settlement land use planning recent council public meeting in the hamlet of Faust at inventory document is but one example, particularly very which the Hon. Larry Shaben was in attendance. There we well thought out and very well planned. This is going on heard from Metis settlement presenters that raised objectives in many of the communities as well. I have one from in education, particularly where Metis people have unique Elizabeth Metis settlement. approaches to curriculum, and in communication, where No mention of the settlements should go without alluding they had progressive proposals for the use of telephones to accomplishments of their member residents. Overall, and satellites. These are but two examples of how the young residents are being educated and trained at increased settlements are defining a vision of their future and working levels in northern educational facilities. While there is much effectively to achieve their goals. room for improvement, young people are seeking out life The Northern Alberta Development Council and the skills and business and trades training at unprecedented Metis settlements have worked together over the past 10 rates. A good example of this is the course on local years. They invited our advice in developing community administrative training at the Alberta Vocational Centre at economic plans. They've asked for our help in approaching Grouard. Students are graduating with the goal of returning public agencies for program extensions or modifications to to the home community to work in the area of administration suit their unique culture. By request, we've been able to and planning. The settlements recognize the importance of assist them in strategy building and co-ordination. The school education and are active in local school boards. settlements have been active participants in council forums Several settlement residents now hold positions of influence; and research projects such as our conference on opportunities for instance, with the new local boards and their staff at in the '80s. In the research piece Alcoholism: Strategies for Northland School Division. The settlements have come a Northern Alberta, the settlement was directly approached long way educationally. I believe education is a key and and helped to work out a special problem in the community. would encourage the leaders to develop facilities as needed. The Metis settlements have taken part in various elements Mr. Speaker, this brief background on the considerable under the Alberta North Agreement. They participated in progress of the Metis settlements as viewed by northern the management development program in which they improved citizens brings light to the issue of these amendments that their administrative skills. In economic development, they will affect Metis settlement residents. Clearly, the settlements were able to acquire equipment and facilities for use in the have improved their lives tangibly and also in human skills oil industry and for forestry. Today at least four settlements at a commendable rate over the past 10 years and obviously have companies that are active and successful in the oil- to an even greater degree since the original Act was related business. structured in the 1930s. I'd like to relate again, Mr. Speaker, to the idea of a The proposed legislative amendments are an historic growing sophistication in the Metis settlement population opportunity for the Metis in Alberta and a unique feature and recall several anecdotes of progress and achievement. in Canada. All of the settlements' achievements are matched As long ago as 1978 the Kikino settlement, a community with a growing sense of pride in their affairs. The amend• in the riding of Lac La Biche-McMurray, began pursuing ments grow out of the need to accommodate the settlements the concept of a full-scale game ranch, particularly for the in a mature municipal structure. The settlements have had purpose of local consumption and commercial sale. The positive experiences under the current structure and have Northern Alberta Development Council was asked to do an proven their responsibility, Mr. Speaker. economic feasibility analysis on this proposal. It was found If passed, the amendments will broaden the opportunity that game ranching has been successful in other countries for self-sufficiency in handling their own affairs in the and that Kikino would do well to investigate this form of settlements. Granting existing settlement lands to settlement economic development. Kikino has now been active in game entities is a significant and symbolic step. I'm sure the ranching for several years after persevering through various sense of destiny through owning land will be felt by all legal and regulatory obstacles. Today Kikino is a leader in Metis settlement presidents and residents. It lends confidence this field of game ranching. to the community planning initiatives that are presently June 3, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 1297 under way. It lends optimism to begin making bolder plans desire. I know these people will have the responsibility and for the future. the desire. The process of consultation is under way to have the Thank you very much. Metis settlement people define and propose membership criteria and new governing structures for Metis settlements. MR. PAPROSKI: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to This is and will continue to be a challenging task. I wish participate in the debate on this government resolution before them well in this endeavour. Given their rising political us today and give my wholehearted support to the resolution experience, I am confident that they are up to the task. as well. The Member for St. Paul and other members have Membership criteria will likely grow out of a tradition, a eloquently related their firsthand experience with regard to precedent, of rural life-style choice. Regarding the com• Metis settlements in their constituencies. My experience as position of governing bodies, a great deal of creativity and an urban MLA is a different one, so I appreciate the flexibility will be needed to set the settlement in an existing members sharing their perspective. or possibly unique context. Cultural difference may dictate The constituency of Edmonton Kingsway consists of a that settlement entities be different from other local municipal large number of Metis people. This includes my good friend bodies. Consultation is particularly needed as these options Christine Daniels, the mother of Jo-Anne Daniels, the vice- are explored. president of the Metis Association of Alberta. Christine's Mr. Speaker, I personally endorse the commitment of husband, Stan Daniels, passed away two years ago. Stan the government of Alberta, once a revised Metis Betterment worked very diligently for many years as the president of Act has been enacted, to introduce a resolution to grant the Metis Association. I think that once the full implications existing lands to Metis settlement entities and their people. of this resolution are realized, Stan would be very pleased In concert with this, I plan to stay responsive to settlement with the initiative. needs through my constituency and broader northern respon• Today we are asked to endorse and reinforce the sibilities. I commend the Premier and the minister for the government's commitment to Metis self-dependency and self- responsibility in bringing Motion 18 here today. There are governance within our political system. As a member of important questions to address in establishing this historic the joint cabinet/caucus committee on native affairs, I see and unique structure. I am confident that by working together, this resolution as a positive step toward a review of the all challenges can be met. Metis Betterment Act, the security of a Metis settlement land base, and Metis self-sufficiency. MR. LYSONS: Mr. Speaker, I too would like to take a In many ways, Mr. Speaker, the history of the Metis few minutes today to speak about this very important reflects the development of western Canada. In a real sense, resolution. It's one that's very near and dear to my heart. they represent the marriage between native and European That is the fact that we are giving an opportunity for some cultures, customs, and traditions. They have faced head-on very dear people to own their own land. Unless you are frustration and alienation from the central political powers, a landowner, particularly farmland or wild land, you can't and the Metis have fought tenaciously for what they believe really experience or know what's in a person's heart until in, developing an admirable history of working within the they've actually shared the land. political system. In this respect, the Metis and the Alberta On behalf of my late father and mother, I would like government can share a common perspective. to thank the Metis people and all the other people in this The relationship between the Metis and the Alberta province for helping them, teaching them, and getting them government is truly unique in Canada. This came about well on their way when they were homesteading. My mother after a great deal of hardship. The great Depression was used to talk with a great deal of love and respect about felt across Canada but particularly in western Canada. the early days when the Indian and Metis people would However, no single group was hit harder than our Metis come and help them at harvest time and fishing time — people. Metis leaders organized and prodded the Alberta all kinds of times. She really felt that the Metis people in government of the day to recognize their serious plight. A particular were missing something in not homesteading. I commission was struck, and the results of this commission's don't know what the problem was, whether they didn't feel work eventually led to the passage of the Metis Population that they could take on that responsibility or what. She Betterment Act in 1938, which the Premier alluded to. This often talked about these people, particularly the women, Act. Mr. Speaker, set aside over one and a quarter million because they couldn't move around quite as much as the acres of land for use of the Metis. Metis settlement asso• men. Apparently they often said they wished they could ciations were established under the Act to help administer own some land. these lands. To this day, Alberta is the only province with There's that pride of ownership that you can only this arrangement for Metis lands. experience by owning land, that incentive to achieve. I often This land base has been a key to the development of wondered why my old dad homesteaded the land he did, the Metis culture. It has provided them with a chance to because it was nothing but rocks and hills. As a matter make a living. The land settlements have acted as an fact, there's an interesting little story, Mr. Speaker. He organizational base from which to work. The settlements stood on the wrong side of the fence line when he picked have enhanced public service programs, their infrastructure, his quarter, and instead of getting the nice quarter that he and the political organization of Metis. The land base has wanted, he picked the rocks and hills. Nevertheless, they been an important step on the road to self-dependency and carved a living out of that. If it wasn't for the ownership self-government. factor, I know they would not have stayed. If people were The resolution before us today, Mr. Speaker, is crucial renting, leasing, or just using that land, there's no way in because it deals with this land base. We have an opportunity the world they would want to stay, survive, and suffer it to evolve further and recognize greater Metis self-government. out. This resolution asks us to endorse the principle that Metis Mr. Speaker, I'd like to close by saying that with settlements should in effect be given the authority to govern authority comes responsibility, and with responsibility comes themselves as unique and distinct municipal corporate ent• 1298 ALBERTA HANSARD June 3, 1985 ities. This marks a great opportunity for some positive I'll sing my song. resolutions to difficult issues. It is not my intention to gloss For here I belong. over these current issues. The Metis have fought hard for On Metis land, what they have achieved to date, and some very significant That's where I stand. questions still need to be answered. I'd like to stress, Here I will stay, though, that there is not an easy way to deal with this In our own way. situation. Here I feel free. I am proud to say that the Alberta government places Which means a lot to me. its emphasis on achievement. On this score we are far ahead of the other provinces. For instance, our government was This land was set aside for me; instrumental in securing the Metis a place at the Canadian Where I could raise my family. Constitution's aboriginal rights deliberations. Secondly, we So schooling now they're sure to get. have also recognized the tendency in the past to treat the On how to live, now they are set. Metis paternalistically and have made great strides in cor• We have a flag, we'll fly it high recting this approach. The shift in responsibility for Metis To tell the folks who may go by settlements from Social Services and Community Health to We're happy here with our own kind Municipal Affairs reflects this change. This has had a If trouble comes, this we don't mind. significant impact on the development of Metis self-respon• sibility. It is no longer what we can do for the Metis, Mr. Mr. Speaker, I urge all members to support this resolution. Speaker, but how we can help the Metis to help themselves. The Minister of Municipal Affairs should be congratulated MR. LEE: Mr. Speaker, it's a privilege to enter this historic on his approach to funding Metis settlements. Funding is debate. With this debate and the adoption of Motion 18, now largely administered by the local associations them• amending the future amendment of the Metis Betterment selves. After all, who is better equipped to know the Act as well as the Alberta Act, I believe, as has been so settlements' needs? The department has also co-operated in aptly said, history is alive in our times. The question is: forestry management, manpower training, and small business what role could an MLA from urban Alberta, from Calgary ventures on the settlements. These are just a few practical in fact, play in this important debate? In some respects, I examples of encouraging self-dependency. think the Metis and an urban MLA have many things in Mr. Speaker, the government resolution before us today common. First, I understand the buffalo played an important is an extension of this trend. It reflects a commitment to role in the well-being and the history of the Metis throughout the Metis by the Alberta government. It is an opportunity western Canada. I understand, in fact, the respect for the to take strides toward achieving the mutual goals of Metis buffalo was so great and the hunting practices were so and government alike. It encourages the Metis to decide on important that the Metis had a rule that you couldn't hunt issues that are of vital importance to their people. This buffalo on Sundays — a civil approach to a day of rest. resolution addresses the issues of self-governance and land Also, the history of Calgary and the history of the Metis title. It endorses a system which would see Metis settlements have been intertwined since Inspector Brisbois crossed the organized as corporate entities, with title to their own land confluence of the Bow and Elbow rivers in 1875. The Metis and the responsibility of governing themselves with regard play an important role in our culture and our economy in to matters of local concern. By supporting this motion, Calgary. members of the Legislature will be endorsing the necessary More than the name in history, Mr. Speaker, I want to steps to be taken to lead to the constitutional change of the offer a somewhat different perspective to this debate, because Alberta Act, revision of the Metis Betterment Act, and in some respects the city of Calgary could be considered general improvement of the welfare of Alberta's Metis the ninth or 10th Metis settlement in Alberta. I understand population. that in the 1981 census in Calgary there were some 7,000 We will squarely place responsibility on the Metis to Metis people residing in our city. A significant number of answer some important questions about themselves. First, them reside in the inner downtown core of Calgary, partly who will be eligible for participation in a Metis settlement; in Calgary Millican and a significant number in Calgary secondly, how will lands be allotted; and thirdly, how will Buffalo. While our Metis residents bring so many fine settlements be governed democratically? It is only after these qualities to urban Alberta, their collective status in urban and other questions are answered that the necessary changes Alberta does not paint a pretty picture. When I was an to the Constitution and provincial legislation can be pro• alderman in Calgary two and a half years ago, we received ceeded with. There is not only a political but a moral a report entitled Native Needs Assessment, a demographic obligation for us as MLAs and the Metis to take full profile of the native population in the city of Calgary. This advantage of this opportunity. Let us approach this challenge was a rather stuffy title for a saddening tale. While the with determination and imagination. report described what was entitled "native needs", it should Mr. Speaker, there is a gentlemen in your gallery that have read "native and Metis needs". It pointed out that made quite an impression on me when I visited the Kikino the majority of respondents who participated in the survey settlement in August 1983. This gentleman is Adrian Hope. came to Calgary from reserves and communities and Metis Besides a half hour lecture on what I as a politician should settlements in northern and southern Alberta as well as be doing to work with the Metis, he also gave me a book Saskatchewan. It went on to point out that the primary entitled Stories in Rhyme, a collection of poetry by this reason cited by the respondents for coming to Calgary was gentleman. This poetry is from the heart. It's just super. to seek employment, yet the majority of the respondents It covers so many different areas of experience of the Metis indicated that not one person in their household had a job. people. I would like to read to you two stanzas from a The sad tale was that the unemployment figures pointed out poem entitled Our Metis Land. I wish Mr. Hope could that they had an unemployment rate three times greater than read this himself, and I hope I do an adequate job. that of the population in Calgary. Even sadder, it pointed June 3, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 1299 out that the majority who were unemployed were young able to appreciate more fully the government's desire to men and women between the ages of 20 and 39 with act on behalf of the Metis people. I also add that as an children. urban member, I learned a great deal about my fellow Mr. Speaker, not all was gloom in this report. It went Albertans while researching the background to this reso• on to note that a significant number did find what they lution. One of the motivations I had in speaking to this were looking for, did find employment, and were achieving resolution was the urging and lobbying of a most prominent their goals. So if, in fact, Calgary is a ninth settlement, Metis from the constituency of Edmonton Belmont, our own to many it is not a hospitable settlement. I can only conclude Sergeant-at-Arms, Oscar Lacombe. from these figures that the complex, demanding, frustrating, To begin with, I believe it would be accurate to describe stressful urban life-style may not be the answer for everyone. the Metis as the only true natives of Canada. Indians and That's why I believe this motion is so important. It gives Europeans were immigrants, even though a thousand or the Metis a choice to live in urban Alberta or to return in more years separated their arrival in the new world. The perpetuity to their settlements. meeting of the Indians and the Europeans produced a mixture An important element of this motion reads, "for the which was not from another land but whose sole roots were benefit of future generations." It's important that future in the new world. This tough and energetic breed of men generations, not just this generation, will be able to choose evolved into an indigenous race that primarily spread and whether they wish a life-style in urban Alberta or on a settled in western Canada. settlement. Let me now look at the origin of the Metis. Historians Mr. Speaker, I can assure you that as an urban MLA, may be quite correct in identifying the origin of the first I'm not seeking to facilitate the loss of any constituents to Metis as nine months after the first white man set foot in anywhere. We're proud to have our Metis people in the Canada. The term Metis also has a curious background. community, because they play such an important role. But People of mixed blood have different names throughout the after listening to the debate today, I certainly recognize the world, but the English language originally described a person important and critical role that settlements play in the of mixed British and Indian heritage as a half-breed. Since economic, social, and cultural life of the Metis. Their the majority of the early settlers in Canada were French, permanent preservation must be a priority. the French term Metis came into popular usage. It is a As a Calgary MLA I spend about half my time with derivative of the Spanish word mestizo, used to designate new Canadian minorities, so I'm especially proud to see people of white and Indian mixed blood. This term can be that this government of which I'm a member is giving such further traced to the Latin miscere, meaning to mix. Another important priority to one of our original minorities. In common term for the Metis is derived from the Ojibwa saying that, Mr. Speaker, I particularly want to acknowledge word wissokoderwinmi — I'm sure the Hansard people will the Premier for his leadership in this important role and check with me on that — which means half-burnt woodmen, the Minister responsible for Native Affairs. I've been par• describing their lighter complexion in comparison to that ticularly impressed by the compassion and strength of argu• of the full-blooded Indians. The French picked up the ment that I've heard from the MLAs who have Metis translation and often used the term bois brulé, or burnt settlements in their constituencies. They truly care for the wood, for these people. Actually, Metis was usually reserved future of their people, and I've been very proud to see that for offspring of Indian mothers and French fathers, while happen. half-breed was used for Indian mothers and English and I guess the final question for an urban MLA is: what Scottish fathers, but both terms have been used interchange• relevance is this whole issue to my constituents who don't ably. understand the issue, who've never been to a Metis Settle• Mr. Speaker, as the early history of our nation began ment, who may not even have heard there's an Alberta Act evolving, meetings and unions between the Europeans and or that this issue is a problem? My answer to them is: this Indians were perfectly natural. Virtually no white women is an issue of essential human rights and human dignity. originally journeyed to the new land. As the activities and Edmund Burke once said: let no man think he fights the the conditions of the fur trade were extremely difficult and battle for others; he fights it for himself. And so do we the men were constantly transient in search of furs to sell, all. Mr. Speaker, we are all brothers and sisters on this the Indian women were the only females available for planet earth. This one small step for the Metis of Alberta marriage, companionship, or most importantly, survival. is a giant step for us all. The early independent French fur traders were called coureurs de bois or runners-of-the-woods. Because of this MR. SZWENDER: Mr. Speaker, I also rise this afternoon life-style in the wilderness, these men made constant contact in support of the resolution under consideration today; that with the various Indian tribes as they explored or searched is, endorsing the commitment of the government of Alberta for furs to trade or trap. Marriage to an Indian was often to grant existing Metis land settlements to the Metis people undertaken for commercial reasons, as it permitted the trader of Alberta. Without question, the government has embarked access to furs through the tribe he had married into and upon an historic move through the introduction and support established a relationship with. But more often the reason, of this resolution, one which will serve as a leading model as stated previously, was survival. Most work was done by for the other provinces of Canada. Indeed, by taking this hand and required co-operation between men and women initiative, the government of Alberta looks with anticipation in designated roles. Men did the hunting, trapping, and to similar action by other provinces in providing an accept• protecting, while women took the meat from the hunt and able resolution to this historic question. dried it or made it into pemmican. As well, they gathered Mr. Speaker, my contribution this afternoon will deal berries, dug for nutritious roots, cared for gardens, dried with the history of the Metis people of Canada and the and smoked fish, tanned hides, made clothes, collected historical background which has brought us to today's debate. firewood, cooked, and bore children and were largely respon• By providing a brief historical overview, I believe all sible for their upbringing. It was impossible for men to members of the Legislature and their constituents will be survive without women. Europeans soon learned this lesson 1300 ALBERTA HANSARD June 3, 1985

and, for this reason, as well as for others, eagerly took the Canadian government's actions and responded strongly Indian women as mates. with the support of his people, forcing the Canadian Although fur companies like the Hudson's Bay set up government to recognize the existence of Riel's national early rules to restrict relationships between their men and committee of the Red River, which was a makeshift the Indians, these rules largely failed. The number of Metis government to speak for all Metis. This was followed by rapidly multiplied on the prairies, and as such, the Metis a request to the new Lieutenant Governor for such basic men rose quickly in importance to the fur trade as inter• rights as electing their own legislature, electing their own preters, guides, and clerks. As early as 1759, a half-breed sheriffs, magistrates, and constables, and for public schools. Moses Norton became governor of the Hudson's Bay fort The provisional government under Riel held authority in Churchill. for some time, until the unfortunate execution of an Ontario As the Metis population continued to increase, mostly Orangeman, Thomas Scott. With this, the Canadian in the west, it became easier to find girls who were Metis, government was pressured into action by sending 1,200 and slowly there began to emerge a fledgling people who troops to restore government authority. Riel escaped capture had a unique and observable social system and culture. A by the troops, but his determination led to positive results. new nation was forming, a nation of people who perceived Although the execution of Scott angered the Canadian themselves as neither white nor Indian but something quite government. Parliament passed the Manitoba Act in July distinct. This role of mixed marriages was startling. David 1870, creating the fifth province of Canada — Manitoba Thompson, Canada's great geographer, married a half-breed — and granting many of the Metis requests, as well as woman and had 12 children. John Rowan, who ruled at asserting their land rights and the continuation of a bilingual Fort Edmonton for more than 30 years, raised and educated school system. six half-breed children. After 1870 the pressure of encroaching white settlers These resulting unique people, the Metis, were soon the was not acceptable to many Metis, who moved farther west most important and populous group in western Canada. to the Northwest Territories, including modern Alberta and Blending the features of white and Indian, the Metis devel• Saskatchewan, to continue their traditional way of life. oped their own characteristics as a people. They were their Though the Metis had been granted 1,400,000 acres of land own bosses and were never a group to be herded, channelled, in 1870 by the Manitoba Act, the distribution was chaotic or manipulated. They have constantly reaffirmed their inde• and irregular, leading many Metis to give up and move pendence. In the words of one writer: unlike many other farther west. minority groups, the Metis are basically nonconformist. By By 1873, with the construction of the Canadian Pacific the 19th century the Metis of western Canada fell into three railway reaching the west, the Metis once again felt threat• broad groups: those who worked in the fur trade as post ened. They petitioned the Canadian government for recog• factors, clerks, interpreters, canoe men, and packers; those nition of their claims, as had been given the Manitoba Metis who led semisettled lives on small farms or plots where in 1870. Again, little attention was paid to their concerns they grew grain and raised livestock; and finally, those who until early 1884, when the government began surveying the were hunters and trappers. land in preparation for the influx of settlers to follow the Because the Metis of western Canada played a major newly completed railway. Another prominent leader of the role in the fur trade, they had a sense of national con• Metis, Gabriel Dumont, decided to summon Louis Riel to sciousness that was strengthened by their concentration in return from the U.S. and once again lead the Metis cause. the Red River area. This led them, in the early 19th century, Riel returned to Saskatchewan and unsuccessfully attempted to declare themselves a new nation. By the 1860s the Metis to make satisfactory agreements with the federal government. of the Red River area, which belonged to the Hudson's On March 19, 1885, Riel again established a provisional Bay Company, were becoming uneasy about the changes government with Gabriel Dumont in charge of military around them. More and more white settlers began arriving matters. The Metis had nowhere to go, and many chose in their domain while buffalo herds dwindled at an alarming resistance in preserving their freedom. This time the Canadian rate. In 1869 Sir John A. Macdonald, Canada's Prime government reacted quickly to the rebellion and, with the Minister, was pressuring the Hudson's Bay Company to sell new railway moving troops to the Batoche area, encountered their lands to the new nation of Canada. Sir John understood the Metis in a number of pitched battles, with the main well the manifest destiny of the United States; that is, to fighting taking place at Batoche. Approximately 100 Metis make all North America a part of the American republic. and Canadians died in the fighting, with the imprisonment At this time in the Red River region, which would form of Riel on May 15, 1885. He was executed on November the basis of the new province of Manitoba, there were 16 of that year. 10,000 people: 1,600 were white settlers, the rest primarily Metis. The Metis knew that changes were coming to the Mr. Speaker, in drawing my remarks to a conclusion, northwest, but they wanted to participate through consultation this marks the 100th anniversary of the Metis struggle for in any of these changes. The Canadian government did not self-sufficiency and independence at Batoche. Through this handle the situation well, alarming the people by actions resolution the government of Alberta has taken a monumental which threatened their life-styles, possessions, homes, and step in healing this century-old wound. As I conclude, I land. recognize that this presentation is far from complete in Out of this tense situation, a leader and inspiration historically addressing the complex issue at hand, but hope• emerged from the Metis people, Louis Riel. Few men have fully it has put the resolution before us today in an appro• had as great an impact on the history of Canada or the priate historical context. Canadian west as has Louis Riel. Although historians over Mr. Speaker, I would like to close my remarks with a the last hundred years have judged him in various ways, quotation from the Metis Association, made in 1942: depending upon their political, religious, or cultural senti• Our true destiny is not bound by the success or failure ments, none would deny him the title of dynamic, the man attendant upon Metis deliberation . . . It is bound up of the hour for the Metis. Riel was not about to ignore with our continued existence as Canadians who fight June 3, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 1301

for those liberties to which we are all devoted and the have they ever had, any right or any claim to any per• preservation of which is dependent upon our victory. manency. I simply draw members' attention to the fact that I urge all members of the Assembly to give their full and we are very proud in this province of some 80 years — unanimous approval to this resolution. we constantly refer to it; we did just five years ago — of the pioneers, the great people who built this province. MR. GOGO: Mr. Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to Without them we wouldn't have anything today. Yet at the make some comments relative to Resolution 18, sponsored same time, by statute, we do not give recognition to some by the hon. Premier. I say that first of all because I'm of the very, very important founders of this province. very grateful to my colleagues in this House, where I, as That's why I am excited by the resolution before us a member of this Assembly for some 10 years, have learned today. I quite frankly think it's more historic than some a tremendous amount about the heritage of this province people perceive it to be. Not many historic matters have and its people in the past several hours. I'm grateful as occurred since I came to this Assembly. The Heritage well to hear from the members directly affected, who work Savings Trust Fund is clearly one; another could well be on a day-to-day basis with many of the Metis people. the result of the passage of this resolution today. If this I from Lethbridge have not had any experience and have resolution is passed — and I'm confident it will be — we had very limited exposure to the Metis people. In my will see coming into operation such terms as fair and capacity as chairman of AADAC, I've dealt with various democratic. With its passage, we will see the formation of leaders, and I'm dearly indebted to Donna Smith at High democratic bodies, totally alien to the present Metis Bet• Prairie, who lives on the East Prairie settlement. Based on terment Act. the chronology of the comments today, it's interesting to Mr. Speaker, I have long believed that each of us has note that East Prairie was formed in the same year the a responsibility as a citizen, as a parent, but above all as Second World War began. I'm also grateful to have been a legislator to see that justice and equity prevail in our associated with the Member for Taber-Warner. In my first society. I want to close with a comment I heard the mover and, I believe, his first term in this House he had special open with. That is, by adopting this resolution we will have responsibilities for the native people, and I'm indebted to for all time in this province a group of people experience, him for his sharing over some 10 years what limited through a sense of fairness and equity, a land base they knowledge I have acquired with regard to the Metis people. can truly claim to be their own. With that, I certainly Mr. Speaker, one begins to get an appreciation of the endorse the passage of this resolution today. Metis settlements in this province when you look at the Thank you. map. Without this resolution coming forward today, I have to say in all honesty and all sincerity that I don't believe MR. KING: Mr. Speaker, each time one of us rises to I would have taken the time to look at the map. Here I speak in this Assembly we recognize our audience: our am, a legislator who has responsibility for all people in colleagues, our neighbours, the media, and our constituents this province, who quite frankly, until the resolution came — the people of the province who live here today. This is forward, hadn't really given it very much thought, and that one of those rare occasions when our audience includes our doesn't make me feel particularly proud. children and our great-grandchildren, because we are making Mr. Speaker, in reading the Metis Betterment Act, I a commitment to the future of this province and we are can't help but understand why there are so many people, also imposing a commitment on the future of this province. citizens of this province, who quite frankly fail to understand We are making commitments for ourselves, and we are why they continue to be viewed and perhaps treated as making commitments for our grandchildren. We are making those who are not pioneers of this province, those who commitments for the children of white Anglo-Saxon Prot• form a great part of the heritage of this province. If they estants, and we are making commitments for the children indeed look at the legislation that's in place — I'd simply of Metis. Who are we to do this? like to make a couple of comments directly from the statute. I have often thought, and it is surely true, that in 25 If one were to believe that they were part of an organization years no one but historians could name the members of that began with saying, every scheme formulated and every this Legislative Assembly. In 25 years no one but historians regulation drafted shall be submitted to the minister, one could name the leadership in 1985 of the Metis Association would tend to think of Canada in the very early days, when or of the settlements. Nevertheless, in the leadership of the the settlers came to try to develop this country without association, in the leadership of the settlements, and in this consideration of the inhabitants. I quote the powers of the Assembly all of the communities of Alberta, and the one minister: make regulations prescribing exclusive occupation community that is all of Alberta, speaks. On the floor of of land; make regulations pertaining to the erection of this Assembly and in the galleries, all the community listens. buildings on land; make regulations prescribing the demo• The names change and the voices change and even the lition of buildings on land. It goes on through about seven understandings change. That's the way it should be. But it subsections of that Act telling people what they can and is always the community that is listening, and it is always cannot do on land on which many of them were born. the community that is speaking. And in the final analysis, Just dealing with the East Prairie settlement, which as it is always the community that decides. I mentioned began some 47 years ago, there are many One of the reasons I'm very proud to think of myself children today who have known no other way of life than as an Albertan is that in all my years in this community, having been born on a settlement. I want to draw members' and particularly the 14 years in this Legislative Assembly, attention to section 9, subsection 6: the decisions we make are invariably decisions to draw In lieu of any liability under such Acts every member people into the life of this community, decisions that respect of the settlement association who has for the time being the diversity of all the people in this province. The decisions the exclusive right of occupation . . . we make invariably choose a commitment that benefits our Almost by implication, Mr. Speaker, we're saying in statute children as much as it benefits ourselves. For the Metis that the Metis people in this province do not have, nor members of our community and every other member of 1302 ALBERTA HANSARD June 3, 1985 this community, it is time we should decide to draw together, Wanyandie Flats. That action by this government gave those to respect the diversity that is represented by the Metis people — there was a small number of them; some 200 — people in our province, and to make the same commitment the stability of having title to their land and having control to the grandchild of a Metis elder as we would to the over it. grandchild of a white Anglo-Saxon Protestant. There's another group in the constituency I represent; The life of the Metis since 1885 is an epic of endurance. that is, the Metis at Marlboro, that I already mentioned. The battle of Batoche was an epic of heroism. There is In the late 1930s, when the Metis Betterment Act was first one other kind of epic that remains to be enacted. We must proposed and enacted, there was an order in council that still see an epic of imagination. I hope this resolution and established the four initial Metis settlements. Of those four, the response of the Metis community and of all Albertans three were abolished for various reasons by order in council. to this resolution will mark an epic of imagination for The Marlboro settlement was included; it was regarded as ourselves, for all of us together, and for our grandchildren unsuitable for settlement because of its location. That may as much as for ourselves. well have been, Mr. Speaker, but the decision to rescind Thank you, Mr. Speaker. the Marlboro settlement was made by order in council with little or no input by the Metis of the Marlboro area. DR. REID: Mr. Speaker, before going on with my remarks, After the provisions of Motion 18 are enacted, that will I move that we stop the clock. no longer happen by order in council; it will require a amendment to the Alberta Act. For that reason I strongly MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed? recommend Motion 18 to the members of the Assembly.

HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. KOZIAK: Mr. Speaker, on Wednesday morning in this very Assembly, the Public Accounts Committee met to MR. SPEAKER: It is so ordered. review the accounts of the Department of Municipal Affairs. I well remember being grilled about a certain aspect of the DR. REID: Mr. Speaker, my contribution to this debate department's expenditures, particularly relative to the report will be brief and was in large part triggered by the mention of the Auditor General. In that grilling, questions were of the Grande Cache co-operatives by the hon. Premier in asked as to why honoraria paid to settlement councillors his remarks at the beginning of this debate. I came to were in fact substantially in excess of that provided for in Canada some 30 years ago as an immigrant. Before I came legislation and regulations. At that point I indicated that we here, I thought I knew something about the country, having had an agreement with the Metis people relative to the read voraciously everything I could find out about it. I Metis Betterment Act and that future amendments would knew about the Nahanni River and Headless Valley. I knew come. In the meantime I asked for the support of all about the Indians and the Eskimos, as they were then called, members of that committee in the journey that would soon now the Inuit. It wasn't until I went to Hinton in 1956 follow. At the time, of course, my lips were sealed because that I realized there was such a thing as a Metis. It may of oath of office, and I couldn't share with that committee sound incredible to Albertans, but that part of Canada's this tremendous historic occasion that we are involved in history is almost unknown in Great Britain. When I went this afternoon. to Hinton, there were Metis working on the construction Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased that the Premier has led us of the pulp mill, and there were a good number working in this very important direction. I well recall attending the in the bush cutting timber for the woodlands operation. annual banquet and meeting of the all-settlement council in Indeed, many of those people still live at Marlboro. the city of Edmonton on December 8. At that time, I spoke There was another group, Mr. Speaker. Those were the briefly to the assembled members of the associations, coun• people we at that time regarded as Indians, and they lived cillors, and friends of the association, and I indicated that at a place called Muskeg. Those people derived from a we must approach the future as friends. I suggested that background of having come from eastern Canada with the one of the qualities that friendship brings out is honesty, surveyors, one of whom was Ewan Moberly, and they and honesty demands commitment. Our Premier has been settled in what was then the Athabasca and Miette valleys honest with our aboriginal people, the Metis, and he has in what became Jasper National Park. When they settled followed up on that honesty with a commitment. That there in the mid and latter 19th century, they presumed commitment is today enshrined in the resolution he has that those distant valleys and mountains were immune to brought to the attention of this Legislature for debate and, the influence of the white man immigrant. Of course, we I trust, unanimous adoption by members of this Assembly. know that in the very early days of this province, Jasper I could speak, Mr. Speaker, of some of the bread-and- National Park was formed. This small band of people was butter issues we are involved with in the Metis development displaced from what they had accepted as their homeland branch of the Department of Municipal Affairs. I would and were told that if they went somewhere in the middle like to point out the presence in the members' gallery of distance between the Athabasca and the Peace River valleys, the director of the Metis development branch, a branch that nobody would every bother them. For some 60 years they has received the support of members of this Assembly, Mr. settled in a beautiful part of our province. They lived there Clifford Supernault. Mr. Supernault was born on the Paddle relatively untouched. They hunted, trapped, and traded fur Prairie settlement in the province of Alberta. He occupies at the Entrance store with Gordon Watt and his predecessors. the position he does today, a very important one with the Then came the Alberta Resources railroad and the coal Department of Municipal Affairs, not because he's a Metis, mine. Once more those people were almost displaced from although that does help, but because he was the best and what they might have taken as being a homeland. In the most qualified person for the job when it was offered. late 1970s those small groups were given title to the Mr. Speaker, we're involved in the bread-and-butter settlement lands where they had been living, at the co• issues, not the sexy issues of constitutional discussion. It's operatives of Muskeg River, Susa Creek, Victor Lake, and really a pleasure to support the resolution of the Premier June 3, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 1303 and to pay tribute to the efforts of my colleague the Minister working at it. On that note, I urge all hon. members to responsible for Native Affairs in this very important process, support the resolution. not only in terms of the development of this resolution with Thank you. the Premier but also in terms of his very important con• tribution to the discussions of this issue on a national level. MR. PAHL: Mr. Speaker, I believe Motion 18 reflects in We all know that each of us in this Assembly can be a most important and tangible way the commitment of the particularly proud of those steps that were taken by our government of Alberta and, with the support of the reso• predecessors in office when they recognized the need to set lution, the Assembly of the province of Alberta, to work aside lands for our Metis people to provide that land base co-operatively with the Metis people in this province to that is so important to their culture. Not only can we wear meet the particular concerns and aspirations they have for that badge of pride today but we can show that we contribute the future. to the creation of that badge by voting in favour of this Mr. Speaker, in a constitutional context, I recall that it resolution and enshrining the title, as has been described was just 24 short months ago to the day that my colleague by the Premier, to that land in the names of the settlement the Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs, the association organizations that are identified as we go through Member for Medicine Hat, introduced into this Assembly the process that has yet to be completed. a resolution authorizing an amendment to the Constitution Mr. Speaker, it's an historic occasion that we've stopped of Canada relating to the rights of Canada's first inhabitants, the clock for, and I'm sure all hon. members will not only the aboriginal peoples. That amendment not only expanded recognize that fact but will support unanimously this very the existing provisions concerning the rights of the aboriginal important resolution put forward by the Premier. peoples but also established a process of first ministers' conferences for further discussion on those matters of major MR. THOMPSON: Mr. Speaker, I can assure you that importance to the various aboriginal groups. During the there are seven people, some of them here today, who intervening two years, Metis representatives at the national really feel this is an important occasion. I would like to level have pressed the governments of Canada for primarily read their names into the record. The first one is of course two things, a land base and self-government. In this regard, Dr. MacEwan himself, who was chairman of the committee. the province of Alberta is unique within the Canadian He did a very able job. Then we have Maurice L'Hirondelle, federation. Under the provisions of the Metis Betterment who served part time on the committee; Elmer Ghostkeeper, Act, approximately 1.28 million acres of land is set aside who served all the time the committee was in session. There for the use and benefit of the Metis people of Alberta. is Randy Hardy; I think he was introduced here today. Because of those unique circumstances in Alberta, a land Robin Ford was a representative from the Depart.ment of base for the Metis is not an aspiration but a reality. Municipal Affairs, and Myrna Fyfe, the Member for St. Moreover, the Metis Betterment Act provides for a form Albert, was on the committee originally, and then I took of self-government at the local level on settlements. Thus, her place. We feel it is an historic occasion, and I think the main objective in Alberta is different from elsewhere it is appropriate that in 1985 we are debating this resolution in Canada. today in the Legislature. Incidentally, the Premier mentioned that he didn't think The task for the government of Alberta and the Metis the Metis Betterment Act was an appropriate name for the is not so much to create new forms; our task is to keep Act, and the committee agreed. In fact, the federation up the work and build on the forms we have now, to suggested, and we concurred, that the name of the Act improve on them and make changes to that which already should be the Metis Settlements Act, so I doubt very much exists. It was in part because of this very different situation if that won't be the name of the Act when it comes into in Alberta that we were reluctant to support the constitutional place. amendment proposed by the federal government during the I'd like to speak just a little about the way the committee last first ministers' conference. In our view, the agenda for worked. We worked on a consensus basis. We had very action in Alberta is very different from other provinces good input from the federation and the settlements them• which might not have accepted the same responsibility for selves. We worked slowly. We were over two years in Metis people in the past. We continue to hold the view process on this document. Some people think we didn't go that there are legislative, policy, and program changes that far enough; some people think we went too far. So we're can meet the legitimate aspirations of Metis Albertans not probably not too far off base if you go on that basis. I living on settlements. Certainly, that view has been rein• think there are many things in this document that people forced by a response by the Metis Association of Alberta will take a look at; there's some good direction here. I in their letter and proposal of May 14, 1985, regarding don't say that everything here is going to be implemented how we can meet their aspirations with respect to self- in the Act, but we spent a lot of time and effort, and I government and a land base within the context of the first think the recommendations we made could be brought into ministers' conferences. the Metis Settlements Act. At the outset, Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak a Today everybody talked about the first step. And it is little about Metis aspirations. Certainly, I think this motion the first step. I really appreciate the fact that we have a is significant because of where it takes us; that is, the cross section of MLAs from every part of the province commitment to working co-operatively with the Metis people supporting this resolution today, because I think it's nec• of Alberta in developing positive and constructive initiatives essary. Mr. Speaker, this is really just a beginning, and to address their special needs and aspirations. I believe that there are what many people would call problems; other answers the concern of the Member for Spirit River-Fairview people call them challenges. I think the biggest challenge that we're going to work with the Metis people: We will we have is to not sit back after we take the vote today certainly provide the assistance and resources required to and put this back on the shelf for another three or four or put meat on the bones of the MacEwan report and the five years. I think the main challenge we have is to keep initiatives we've taken today. 1304 ALBERTA HANSARD June 3, 1985

On June 3, 1983, I outlined in this Assembly what I leaders, put some meat on the bones. I think that's an apt perceived to be the general aspirations of the native people phrase. I guess putting meat on the bones is mixing met• in Alberta, and with respect to the Metis people, I would aphors with taking a journey, but in some sense, we've like to restate briefly my understanding of those aspirations already completed part of the journey. The resolution pro• as they were reinforced subsequently to me. First, the Metis vides us with a compass and a road map as we proceed people have indicated during the constitutional discussions ahead. That way we can chart our progress. and elsewhere a desire to protect their distinctive culture There are three main legs of the journey. As article and heritage within Canada. What is being asked for is three of the resolution indicates, the first leg of that journey recognition of their special role and contribution to the will involve the Metis devising and proposing "fair and history of Canada and Alberta and the opportunity to continue democratic criteria for membership in settlement associa• to practise their unique life-style and traditions with a sense tions" and for the allocation of land to individual members of self-worth and dignity. Second, and perhaps more impor• of the associations. Mr. Speaker, this is a very important tantly, the Metis people want to be able to exercise greater first step on which work has already begun. As we know, control over their own lives and destiny as a people. Through in the late 1930s the settlements were set aside for the use our consultations with the Metis Association of Alberta and and benefit of all the Metis of Alberta. To ensure that the the Metis communities throughout the province, it has settlements continue to provide an opportunity for those become clear that there is a strong desire for greater Metis Albertans who wish to reside on settlements, it is participation in and, in some cases, control over those imperative that membership continue to be open and based institutions that affect their lives. In general, the Metis on fair and equitable criteria. What is equally important is would like to have both the opportunities and the skills to that those criteria, as well as the composition of democratic allow them to exercise a greater degree of self-reliance and governing bodies for the management and government of self- sufficiency. Thirdly, the Metis people are seeking the Metis settlements, be initially developed by the Metis opportunities for social and economic parity with other themselves. Having greater control over their lives and Canadians. Again, what they are seeking, in my view, are destiny as a people begins with their participation in a the opportunities, the resources, and the skills to improve meaningful way in the design of the governmental structures, their circumstances through meaningful and productive activ• which they will continue to use in the future to manage ity. Finally, the Metis people are requesting some protection their own affairs. to ensure that what they now have will continue to be Once this initial work has been completed, the second available for their children and for future generations. leg of the journey will involve the development and intro• I guess we could talk about this effort as being parallel duction of a revised Act as soon as possible. I now learn to a journey, Mr. Speaker. As the first step, this resolution from my colleague from Cardston that it's the Metis Set• responds positively to all those aspirations. It commits not tlements Act, and I don't think he will find any difficulty only the government but, if passed, the Legislative Assembly from me or from fellow travellers in the gallery. Once this of this province to embarking as fellow travellers with the legislation is in place, building on the work of the MacEwan native people on a very important journey into the future. commission, there will be a new start, as was said, a Undoubtedly, as many speakers have mentioned, on this gigantic step, that will also provide a new attitude and a journey we'll encounter obstacles and difficulties and perhaps new framework whereby the settlements can plan and manage critics, and we'll occasionally be attempted to succumb to their future developments. It will overcome the many lim• some weariness. But I believe in my heart that the goal at itations found in the present Act and will enable the Metis the end of this road will be worth the effort, and I think to assume greater responsibility for those matters of impor• there will be mileposts along the way, both symbolic and tance to them. concrete, to encourage us to move along and show our Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, the third leg of the journey is mutual progress. of the greatest importance. I'll basically repeat that this For members of the Assembly, and particularly my resolution is an endorsement of the government's intention colleagues who preceded me in my portfolio responsibilities, to transfer the existing settlement lands to the Metis Set• I'd like to say that Mr. Adrian Hope is still educating and tlement Associations or other such Metis corporate [entities] making friends with ministers responsible for native affairs. as may be determined to be appropriate, to be held on He provided a very good lesson for the hon. Member for behalf of the Metis people of Alberta. This transfer would Peace River when he said, "What you need to do is walk be accomplished by way of an amendment to the Alberta with me; not ahead of me, not behind me, but walk with Act, which I point out, and as has been pointed out, is me." Mr. Speaker, I have tried very hard to walk with part of the Constitution of Canada. the people that I share responsibility and mutual goals with. I would like to make several comments on this leg of I walked briefly with Mr. Maurice L'Hirondelle. I've walked the journey, Mr. Speaker. The first concerns the matter of along the journey with Mr. Elmer Ghostkeeper in his timing. It would have been our preference to have introduced responsibilities in past times. He's left the journey directly, instead, with the concurrence of the federal government, a and I'm now walking with president Mr. Joe Courtepatte. resolution which would have actually proposed the amend• I'm also doing my best to walk, work, and learn with as ment to the Alberta Act. Although we're clearly committed, many of the native leaders as possible who will walk, work, a number of matters need to be resolved before this amend• and learn with me. ment can be proclaimed. Because the settlement associations Mr. Speaker, because we are dealing with a situation are not presently within the legislation to possess the legal unique in Canada, there are few lessons to be learned from status to enable them to hold land, new legislative measures past journeys of others. With our Metis people of Alberta, will be required to give the associations or their predecessors ours is largely a voyage of discovery into uncharted territory. that capability. As well, a scheme for the holding and In that uncharted territory, in order to meet the objectives management of those lands will need to be developed and and criteria of this resolution, we have to in effect, as very given effect through legislation in the new Metis Settlements well stated in our meeting with Mr. Courtepatte and his Act. Boundaries will also need to be defined and a legal June 3, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 1305 survey undertaken. In certain cases the settlers have indicated servants in the departments of the Attorney General, Munic• that they would like to have their settlements renamed. All ipal Affairs, and FIGA and, of course, the staff of the of this will require new legislation to be in place prior to Native Affairs Secretariat. the transfer of lands through the amendment to the Alberta In final conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I respectfully request Act. that all members support this important giant first step. My second comment concerns the granting of land. As [Mr. Speaker declared the motion carried. Several members I noted earlier, whether a probable event or not, the Metis rose calling for a division. The division bell was rung] people are concerned about the ability of the government to rescind the existing settlements through order in council MR. SPEAKER: Perhaps by way of exception I could at some point in the future. Throughout the constitutional explain to our guests that what is happening now is that a discussions, representatives of the Federation of Metis Set• recorded vote is being taken. The members have voted by tlements and associations, as their most important priority, voice vote. Through the procedure we have just now started, have consistently urged us to consider some further protection there will be a recorded vote. At the end of eight minutes, for the Metis settlement land base. Mr. Speaker, we certainly when the bell has rung again, all the members in the have a good deal of sympathy for this view. The Metis Chamber will be asked to stand, and their names will be have occupied their lands on the settlements for almost a recorded as to the way they vote on this resolution. So we half a century. They have improved and developed those have a short recess of about another five or six minutes, lands in the hope of being able to provide for their children's and then we will take the recorded vote, in addition to the future. Yet their legal interest in these lands at present is voice vote which was already taken. not as strong as that of other Albertans, including those who earlier homesteaded in the province. [Eight minutes having elapsed, the House divided] For the Metis to be assured of a collective land base For the motion: on which to preserve their culture and way of life for future Adair Hiebert Planche generations, some safeguard was indeed required. Not only Alexander Hyland Reid does the amendment offer that safeguard, Mr. Speaker, but Alger Hyndman Schmid the responsibility is being placed with the Metis. Unlike Anderson Isley Shaben past situations, or as is the case with Indian reserves where Batiuk Johnston Shrake a minister of the government holds the land for the use Bogle King Sparrow Campbell Kowalski Speaker, R. and benefit of the Indian people, the amendment would Carter Koziak Stevens place that trust responsibility with the Metis people them• Clark Lee Stiles selves. Cook Lougheed Stromberg Mr. Speaker, I also believe that some comment must Crawford Lysons Szwender be made on the relationship between this resolution and Cripps Martin Thompson what it proposes in the current natural resource litigation. Diachuk McPherson Topolnisky The motion very clearly states that the amendment and the Drobot Moore, R. Trynchy grant of existing settlement lands would be without prejudice Elliott Musgreave Webber Fischer Nelson Weiss to the court action. The Metis have sought assurances that Fjordbotten Pahl Young what is being proposed will not jeopardize their claim, and Gogo Paproski Zaozirny this assurance is clearly provided in the resolution. While Gurnett Payne Zip we have different views on this matter, we have agreed to Harle disagree and leave the question open to the courts. My personal view, however, is that some early resolution of Total Ayes – 58 Noes – 0 this issue would greatly assist in the process of developing the new legislation. MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I move the Assembly now adjourn until 8 p.m. As a final note, Mr. Speaker, I would like to comment on the way in which the amendment is being proposed. MR. SPEAKER: Having heard the motion by the hon. First, the resolution draws attention to the fact that a Government House Leader, do you all agree? constitutional amendment of significance to an aboriginal group of people is possible within the present framework of the Constitution Act of Canada, 1982, without further HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. amendment as that recently proposed by the federal government. Secondly, as the Premier stated, the fact that what is being proposed is an amendment to the Alberta Act is certainly not without significance. Throughout the con• [The House recessed at 6:11 p.m. and resumed at 8 p.m.] stitutional discussions, we've indicated our preference for a practical, made-in-Alberta approach which addresses the real needs and aspirations of the Metis people in our head: PRIVATE BILLS province. Together as Albertans we have sought our own solutions and, in my view, have emerged as leaders within (Second Reading) the Canadian Confederation. Mr. Speaker, it is only fitting Bill Pr. 11 that the amendment being proposed to the document itself The Calgary Municipal Heritage serves as our constitution, the constitution of Alberta. Properties Authority Act MR. STILES: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of my colleague for In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank all Calgary North Hill, I move second reading of Bill Pr. 11, members for their support and contributions to the debate. The Calgary Municipal Heritage Properties Authority Act. I would also like to acknowledge — and perhaps we don't This Bill would create an authority to develop and do it often enough — a very dedicated group of public maintain heritage properties in the city of Calgary. 1306 ALBERTA HANSARD June 3, 1985

[Motion carried; Bill Pr. 11 read a second time] have before stepping aside. What's happened here is that the Alberta Order of Excellence tends to need a longer Bill Pr. 12 term membership to assess the various applications that Highfield Trust Company Repeal Act come forth, and and it's been the view of the members involved that that limitation is not necessary or desirable. MR. PAPROSKI: Mr. Speaker, I move second reading of Bill Pr. 12, Highfield Trust Company Repeal Act. [Title and preamble agreed to] This Bill repeals the Act which incorporated the company. The company never commenced operation as a trust company MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill 1 be and has since been dissolved. The Act is therefore redundant, reported. and a petition to repeal it has been presented by the liquidator of the company. [Motion carried]

[Motion carried; Bill Pr. 12 read a second time] Bill 2 Grain Buyers Licensing Repeal Act Bill Pr. 13 Society of Management Accountants MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any questions? of Alberta Amendment Act, 1985 MR. BATIUK: Mr. Chairman, in second reading I gave MR. NELSON: Mr. Speaker, I move second reading of an overview of that Bill. It hasn't been used since 1959, Bill Pr. 13, Society of Management Accountants of Alberta and it refers mostly to track buyers, which are not in Amendment Act, 1985. existence any more. Sections of the Act are totally covered Very briefly, the primary purpose of the Bill is to allow under the Canada Grain Act, so there is necessity for repeal. for the name change of Registered Industrial Accountant to Certified Management Accountant or the initials CMA. This [Title and preamble agreed to] will give them the title they requested. MR. BATIUK: Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill 2, Grain [Motion carried; Bill Pr. 13 read a second time] Buyers Licensing Repeal Act, be reported.

Bill Pr. 14 [Motion carried] The Youth Emergency Services Foundation Act Bill 3 Municipal Capital Expenditure MR. ALEXANDER: Mr. Speaker, I move second reading Loans Repeal Act of Bill Pr. 14, The Youth Emergency Services Foundation Act. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any questions or comments This is a request by the Youth Emergency Shelter Society regarding the sections of this Act? of Edmonton for incorporation to promote the purposes of the foundation. Briefly, I commend it to members because [Title and preamble agreed to] it has among its objects: (a) to receive gifts, donations, bequests, grants, and MR. FISCHER: I move the Municipal Capital Expenditure other property . . . Loans Repeal Act be reported. (b) to act as a charitable foundation; (c) to promote services to troubled youth and their [Motion carried] families and to help in overcoming crisis and dys• function of troubled youth and their families; Bill 4 (d) to promote community awareness of the problem of troubled youth. Seed Dealers Repeal Act

[Motion carried; Bill Pr. 14 read a second time] MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question?

[On motion, the Assembly resolved itself into Committee [Title and preamble agreed to] of the Whole] MR. FISCHER: I move that Bill 4, the Seed Dealers Repeal Act, be reported.

head: GOVERNMENT BILLS AND ORDERS [Motion carried] (Committee of the Whole) Bill 5 [Mr. Appleby in the Chair] Alcoholism and Drug Abuse Amendment Act, 1985 Bill 1 Alberta Order of Excellence MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any questions or comments? Amendment Act, 1985 [Title and preamble agreed to] MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Chairman, this Bill really has the one provision only, as I mentioned at second reading; that MR. GOGO: Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill 5, the is, it had a provision restricting the number of consecutive Alcoholism and Drug Abuse Amendment Act, 1985, be terms a member of the Alberta Order of Excellence could reported. June 3, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 1307

[Motion carried] never been proven, in all the studies that have been taken to date. It is the feeling in this legislation that it's not Bill 6 necessary to cover it provincially when it's adequately covered under the federal statutes. Beverage Container Amendment Act, 1985 Mr. Chairman, we have two programs under this Act that come into practice that relate to the other two areas MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any questions or comments? the hon. Leader of the Opposition brought forward; that is, we have now a code of practice in the legislation that [Title and preamble agreed to] addresses this area where — it's section 8 under the Act. MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill 6, the Just to clarify that, I'll get the exact wording. Beverage Container Amendment Act, 1985, be reported. "Code of practice" means a document prepared by an owner or employer to provide information to workers [Motion carried] and other persons concerning the safe operation of radiation facilities, radiation equipment or radiation Bill 8 sources, including the following . . . Radiation Protection Act and it lists "safe working and operating procedures," and "actions to be taken in emergency situations. So it's ade• MR. CHAIRMAN: There is an amendment. Are there any quately covered under section 8, the code of practice, and questions or comments regarding the amendment? that relates to your workers and persons in and around the area of operation of these sets. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Chairman, just a couple of questions Another section of the Act relates to this area that the here to make sure we're all still alive. I would like to ask hon. Member for Edmonton Norwood was asking about, about three or four questions on this particular Bill, if I the quality assurance program that's built in there. That could. First of all, I would ask the hon. member if video covers proper procedure and maintenance of equipment in display terminals are covered by this Act and if not, why relation to the people working in that area. It covers a lot not? I would also ask two or three other questions. Why that wasn't adequately covered before and replaces some of does this Bill propose that the Radiation Health Advisory the legislation in the previous two Acts that we're combining Committee no longer requires a diagnostic radiologist, a in this piece of legislation. physicist experienced in radiation physics, or a senior radia• tion health officer? Why does the Bill propose that the MR. NELSON: Mr. Chairman, I have just a couple of Radiation Health Advisory Committee no longer be respon• questions and comments with regard to Bill 8. We're all sible for promoting an education program among operators interested in protecting the public, and I think that's rea• and radiation workers? sonable. However, there are incidents that happen where, because of a complaint or a potential incident that hasn't MR. R. MOORE: The video display terminals are already yet happened but may, some of the firms that are being regulated, Mr. Chairman. However, it's at the design and manufacture stages of construction, by the federal Radiation investigated are found to have no wrongdoing and they may Emitting Devices Act, and that's administered by the federal be exposed or overexposed by the media. department now. It also sets the Canadian standard for I'm just wondering if there is some provision that we maximum X-ray emission from devices such as this. could incorporate into this Act that might allow for any I might add, Mr. Chairman, that video display terminals information that has been collected relevant to a complaint are basically small TV sets. The radiation emitted by these on a particular company or companies to flow to that display terminals is so little that it's often hard to determine company, so they might protect themselves in case of a between radiation being emitted from the machine and complaint being launched. In other words, in protecting the radiation emitted from the surrounding environment. The integrity of our environment and our public, should we not display terminal operator's exposure is literally thousands also be trying to protect the integrity and good names of of times lower than the established exposure limits. corporations or companies that may have been given a raw Rumours persist, and I'm sure that's what the hon. deal because of an unfounded complaint, should that happen. Leader of the Opposition was referring to. His concern is After all, once the investigation starts to take place of our based on a lot of these rumours that persist about cataracts, environment and the protection of the public, many times miscarriages — we heard a few years ago — and birth the protection of the company is forgotten about, and once defects. However, I must say, Mr. Chairman, that this has the deed is done, he has no recourse. I think some of that not been substantiated by thousands of studies which have information should be made available to that particular been carried out over the years. There's no shred of evidence organization so they might be able to combat that complaint that relates to that. The Alberta Occupational Health and at some future date. Safety Council have monitored video display terminals, the federal radiation protection bureau has continued studies, MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? and private agencies have commissioned numerous studies on that subject. Internationally there have been hundreds of [Motion on amendment carried] studies. Every one comes up with the same results: that the emissions from these is far below the limits. [Title and preamble agreed to] I might say that it's strictly a problem of what we call ergonomics; that is, lighting, rest breaks, eye strain, and MR. R. MOORE: Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill 8 be so on. A person sitting in front of these sets all day long reported. does have physical strain not related to radiation. A lot of these problems attributed to video display terminals have [Motion carried] 1308 ALBERTA HANSARD June 3, 1985

Bill 9 by MLAs who might want to ask questions or be in contact. Social Care Facilities Review Committee I'm interested in the rationale behind those two areas: first Amendment Act, 1985 of all, why we're adding an ADM from Energy and Natural Resources and, secondly, why we're moving to allow any MR. CHAIRMAN: We have an amendment to this Bill as member of the commission to be able to chair it. well. Are there any questions or comments on the amend• ment? MR. KROEGER: Mr. Chairman, it's important that the Department of Energy and Natural Resources be represented [Motion on amendment carried] on the commission because many of the things that we discuss and deal with have to do with that department. The [Title and preamble agreed to] direct input of an ADM becoming part of the commission makes it much more realistic and easier for us to deal with DR. CARTER: Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill 9, the those things that impact that department. There are no Social Care Facilities Review Committee Amendment Act, ulterior motives. The commission will operate the same as 1985, be reported as amended. it did prior to that. We have four ADMs from four departments represented now, namely Agriculture, Municipal [Motion carried] Affairs, Economic Development, and Environment. So there's nothing very complicated about the request for the addition, Bill 12 except simply to speed up the process and have the infor• Litter Amendment Act, 1985 mation from that department available around the table. The request that the Lieutenant Governor in Council can MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any questions or comments appoint someone other than an MLA to chair the commission regarding sections of this Bill? would be at the Lieutenant Governor in Council's choice. It wouldn't be realistic to appoint one of the ADMs to [Title and preamble agreed to] chair that commission, although a nonelected member could very well be qualified. MR. COOK: Mr. Chairman, I move that the Bill be reported. [Title and preamble agreed to] [Motion carried] MR. KROEGER: Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill 17 be Bill 15 reported. Co-operative Associations Amendment Act, 1985 [Motion carried]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any questions or comments Bill 14 regarding this Bill? Foreign Cultural Property Immunity Act

[Title and preamble agreed to] MR. CHAIRMAN: Next we have Bill 14. There is an amendment. MR. NELSON: Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill 15 be reported. MR. GURNETT: Mr. Chairman, I made some comments on this Bill at the time of second reading earlier in the [Motion carried] spring, but I would like to comment specifically on the amendment and some other concerns about the Bill. Bill 17 The amendment was obviously one that paid some careful Water Resources Commission attention to the fact that the wording in the Bill as we first Amendment Act, 1985 had it certainly would have given native peoples in this province a little more to hold on to, in that it said in MR. GURNETT: Mr. Chairman, there are a few comments section 2 "any cultural property emanating from," and now I'd briefly like to make and maybe have them responded we have "ordinarily kept in." It seems to me there's quite to later. One of them concerns the Bill's change in that it a big difference between the two wordings. The original would now add another assistant deputy minister, specifically home of any object now becomes pretty much irrelevant, an ADM from the Department of Energy and Natural and we're looking only at who happens to be in possession Resources, to the membership that's already on the com• of it at this time. mittee. Certainly, I wonder whether we need to read into I have a concern about the Bill, Mr. Chairman, because that or see in that in any way an indication of an intention of the whole issue of restitution of cultural properties that's to look at water as a natural resource in the same way as now happening all over the world. There are good mech• things such as oil and coal. I hope that's not the case. anisms in place to protect restitution when it's taking place Beyond that, I'm especially concerned that this Bill would between two different countries, but I think there's a par• allow a nonelected person to chair the water commission. ticular problem in cases of objects that belong to or are Theoretically, one of the deputy ministers, the ADMs, or part of the culture of indigenous peoples. They can't take a member of the public could now chair the commission. advantage of the mechanisms that have been set up through I have a concern about whether that creates a layer and UNESCO, for example. The possibility of an indigenous moves the ability to be directly accountable to the Legislature group's being able to regain any of their cultural artifacts away a little bit. If it's possible for a nonelected person to and to see any restitution take place depends pretty much chair the commission, there's not that same direct access on whether political opinion happens to support that or not June 3, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 1309 and what the mood of the country may be at a particular The benefit that will be derived by the people of Alberta time. I have a concern that this Bill is supporting its being from passing this Bill is very significant. Firstly, from a more difficult rather than supporting the indigenous people's cultural standpoint it will give Albertans a unique opportunity being able to reclaim some of these objects. So I have to view what are often rare and priceless cultural treasures those worries about this. of other countries, which would not come to this province Many of these objects that would be involved by a Bill without the assurance of immunity from seizure provided like this were originally lost as the spoils of conquest, war, by this Bill for, as I mentioned, whatever possible motive or something, and in a sense there's an implicit acceptance by whoever may have the money and desire to do so, for of that robbery, Mr. Chairman, when we bring in a Bill whatever reason. It's not just the reason of a native group to protect those objects and allow them to not be able to feeling that it's an artifact that belongs to them. be recovered. When we look at what's happened to so many Mr. Chairman, as I've already said during second reading, nonwestern cultures in this world, I think we should really significant exhibits have already bypassed Alberta because take that as a sign that we should have a great deal of of the lack of this Act in our statute books. Let us not respect, pay a lot of attention to this whole area, and do lose any more. Along with the cultural benefits come the our best to protect other people's cultural properties. economic benefits. Significant cultural exhibits — and it is I'm afraid that when we approve a Bill like this, Mr. these that are most likely to stay away from the province Chairman, what we do, in a sense, is demonstrate our without this Act — bring a lot of visitors to the hosting materialism: it's more important to allow a museum or city, whether it's Edmonton or Calgary, and along with collector to hold on to one of these objects than it is to that spending on other attractions and services in the com• see that the cultural integrity of a group of people is munity. With our heavy emphasis on tourism and its pro• respected. So I have a lot of worry and wonder how we motion, every effort needs to be made to facilitate this can justify proceeding with a Bill like this that simply allows industry. Bill 14 does exactly this. us in Alberta the chance to look at these objects with a Mr. Chairman, I urge the committee to endorse Bill 14. certain amount of security for the people who claim to own Thank you. them now but pays no attention to the cultures that they're really a part of As I say, I have a feeling that it's a [Motion on amendment carried] statement about our interest in material things over some of the less material aspects of a people's culture and that [Title and preamble agreed to] we're not paying any proper attention to that. I think if we put it into perspective and thought about MR. ZIP: Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill 14 be reported how we would feel about some of the cultural artifacts that as amended. are important to us being held by another group of people and our being unable to regain them, it might give us a [Motion carried] little more ground to respect what's happening here and the kind of feelings some of our native peoples may have about Bill 19 these objects that will come and be put on display but that Real Property Statutes they will have no right to claim even though they, in fact, Amendment Act, 1985 are part of their own heritage. We add insult to injury in a sense. It's bad enough that the things were taken from MR. CHAIRMAN: We have an amendment to this Bill. these people originally, but that we now make it legally more difficult for them to have any chance of working MR. GURNETT: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask just one through a restitution of these things is something that I question and maybe have some explanation as we look at think should be troubling us more than it seems to me that Bill 19. The provision here for something called "strata it is as we look at this Bill. space" jnterests me. I'd like to know a bit more about just what that is. Does it mean, for example, that the owner MR. ZIP: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to clarify and answer of a pipeline is able to acquire title to the particular strata the hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview on the question the pipeline passes through? I wonder how this strata space that has been raised about cultural, native artifacts held in provision affects the rights of a property owner, compared other countries. It's really sort of a side issue of the whole to somebody who had some particular strata of space above question. The main artifacts that will be brought into the or below the ground, as I understand it. So maybe the country will be artifacts like the Egyptian ones that are in Attorney General, in responding, could tell us all about Montreal at the present time, artifacts from King Tut's reign strata space and just what its implications are for people that can't come to Alberta at the present time because we in Alberta. don't have an immunity act that guarantees these very significant gems of civilization from being displayed in MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, I welcome the oppor• Alberta and which can be seized, not because they may tunity to give some explanation about something as novel happen to belong to another cultural group within the country to our system, because it is quite new and hon. members or that they feel they might belong to them. From the are entitled to hear of the pioneering work they're doing standpoint of commercial transactions, in order to collect tonight. The Land Titles Office has for some time been money owing on something unrelated, there's always the registering certain types of documents, probably protected danger of these artifacts being seized for a wide range of by caveat, which would purport to subdivide "volumetric excuses. The rarity of these artifacts is such that no country space," as it's referred to in the proposed Act. The real is going to allow them to leave their borders without specific significance of it is to enable a person, for example, to guarantees that they be returned after the display is com• take title to a floor of a high-rise building, be it above pleted. That is certainly true, as I pointed out in debate ground or below ground, without taking title to the land on second reading. upon which the building is situated. 1310 ALBERTA HANSARD June 3, 1985

It has been so much a part of our history that if one [Motion carried] owned the plot of land, that same person owned everything that was securely affixed to it, and almost all titles, even Bill 22 for large and complex buildings, would be on one or more Employment Standards Amendment Act, 1985 parcels which would be registered, and then the improve• ments on that parcel or parcels, being perhaps a very MR. MARTIN: Mr. Chairman, I raised some items on substantial building, would normally have been owned by second reading of this particular Bill. Obviously, I know the same person that owned the ground it's situated upon. that it's not going to change, but I just want to ask if the Only in recent years have commercial developments been hon member can tell me if the government looked at of such a nature that people wanted to have different examples in Canada, specifically Ontario and Quebec, where arrangements. Years ago the type of arrangement might the public service and a number of the Crown employees have been by way of lease back, say, of an entire building, receive 17 weeks' leave with 93 percent full pay. Did they where one person owned the site upon which the building look at that concept before bringing the Bill in, and if they was, and another, in effect, would end up owning the did, what was the assessment? Is it something that they're building. This was an elementary approach to trying to looking at in the future that we may be coming back to divide interests up on the same site. What this will do is and this is maybe just a start? Perhaps the hon. member allow survey plans to be filed in accordance with guidelines can tell us what research went into this particular Bill. established by the legislation and title taken in the manner I've described, the best example being, say, one or two MR. SZWENDER: I'm glad to respond to the question by floors of a 40-storey building. You could actually register the Member for Edmonton Norwood. Certainly I can under• your title to that. stand the question as it relates to paid maternity leave as The question the hon. member had — I don't think it's it exists in Ontario and Quebec. I believe that in Ontario possible to use this in respect, for example, to pipelines, provincial government employees receive paid maternity unless you wanted to subdivide the inside of the pipeline leave that is the difference between the UIC and the nego• for some reason. Pipelines are registered — and that will tiated agreement based on their collective agreement. It is continue — as an interest in land in a totally different way, not included in legislation. I hope the Member for Edmonton usually by way of easement; in other words, a right to the Norwood is paying attention to this. It is not in the limited use of the property and to come onto the surface legislation; it is part of their collective agreement. So any of it by agreement, for purposes such as repair, servicing, group is entitled to those benefits if they can receive those maintenance, and so on. But I suppose there are pipelines benefits in their collective agreements. where the pipeline company, in certain situations — maybe I would like to add that Bill 22 addresses the principle some of the larger ones done long enough ago might indeed of discrimination on the basis of pregnancy and really doesn't own the property that they're actually situated on. But if address the concept of paid maternity leave. I'm sure that that happened, that wouldn't be of any importance to the in the future we would be more than pleased to look at issue we're discussing under the heading of strata space. that as something that could be considered. However, I So in effect, it's a commercial situation we're always looking think it's more important that this is an added benefit that at in the sense of strata space. could be included with negotiated contracts between the parties involved. [Motion on amendment carried] MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? [Title and preamble agreed to] [Title and preamble agreed to] MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill 19 be reported as amended. MR. SZWENDER: Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill 22 be reported. [Motion carried] [Motion carried] Bill 11 Bill 23 Crowsnest Pass Municipal Unification Industrial Wages Security Amendment Act, 1985 Amendment Act, 1985 MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question?

[Title and preamble agreed to] [Title and preamble agreed to]

MR. KOZIAK: Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill II, the MR. KOWALSKI: Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill 23, the Crowsnest Pass Municipal Unification Amendment Act, 1985, Industrial Wages Security Amendment Act, 1985, be reported. be reported. [Motion carried] [Motion carried] Bill 25 Bill 20 Local Authorities Election Amendment Act, 1985 Fatality Inquiries Amendment Act, 1985 MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? [Title and preamble agreed to] [Title and preamble agreed to] DR. ELLIOTT: Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill 20, the MR. PAPROSKI: Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill 25, the Fatality Inquiries Amendment Act, 1985, be reported. Local Authorities Election Amendment Act, 1985, be reported. June 3, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 1311

[Motion carried] grounds for exclusion seems to me to give the public service board unlimited scope to exclude public employees from a Bill 28 union. Mr. Chairman, I say to the Attorney General that Pari Mutuel Tax Act I do not know why we have to go this far when other provinces seem to be coping with negotiations, figuring out MR. CHAIRMAN: There is an amendment to this Bill. who should be excluded or not. That legitimately should Are you ready for the question on the amendment? be at the bargaining place as part of collective bargaining. Adding "or for any other reason" seems to me to be [Motion on amendment carried] much too broad, Mr. Chairman. I suggest to the Attorney General that this will not be well received. It certainly isn't [Title and preamble agreed to] in AUPE. As I've said, we've heard from the national union, and they're calling it the most restrictive of all MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Chairman, I move that the Bill as government Acts in Canada. I hope that's not something amended be reported. we want at this particular time. I wonder why we're excluding people in such a broad way. Perhaps the Attorney [Motion carried] General could comment on that.

Bill 29 MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, I'd be glad to. First Alberta Municipal Financing Corporation of all, I want to indicate to the hon. Leader of the Opposition Amendment Act, 1985 that the addition of the few words of which he spoke, for whatever reason, are not there because of any question of MR. CHAIRMAN: There is also an amendment to this confidentiality. I agree that the various classifications which Bill. Are you ready for the question on the amendment? appear elsewhere in that section deal with all situations where confidentiality would be a concern. [Motion on amendment carried] It was proposed simply to add flexibility to the board's deliberations. The number of subsections in that particular [Title and preamble agreed to] section, of course, leave the board no flexibility as to exclusions, because those exclusions are statutory. If they MR. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill 29, the make a determination that on the facts of a particular situation Alberta Municipal Financing Corporation Amendment Act, an employee is in fact within the description of any of the 1985, as amended be reported. several areas — I don't have the section in front of me now, but it includes employees of the Legislative Assembly, [Motion carried] the Auditor General's Office, and many, many others that are not so obviously ones that should be statutorily excluded. Bill 30 But I say to the hon. leader that the addition of these words Public Service Employee Relations doesn't preclude bargaining on the issue of whether or not Amendment Act, 1985 any additional categories should be excluded. Clearly, if the parties come to a conclusion of their own as a result MR. MARTIN: Just to follow up from second reading, of bargaining, the employee in question is either in or out perhaps we can deal with this in a little more detail at the of the bargaining unit, provided that it isn't one of the committee stage, Mr. Chairman. I was saying in second statutory exclusions. In other words, the "or for any other reading, and I'd like the Attorney General to comment on reason" one is still open territory for the parties to bargain. it, that we're told that the purpose of this change is protect It's true they can't use it to circumvent the statutory confidentiality of information. I want to confirm if that's exclusions, but they can use it if something comes up which the case, if that's why the minister sees the necessity of is not in the statutory exclusions. Really, what is involved this legislation. If that is so, it seems to me that provisions there is that this enables the board, under the subsection to that effect are already in place. For example, section 20 where this amendment is proposed, to go beyond the nature of the Public Service Act requires an oath promising not of the duties and responsibilities of the position, which is to disclose information without due authorization and, I roughly the language of the section as it now stands in that understand, provides a penalty for contravention. part of it being amended, and enables them to hear argument Mr. Chairman, I'd also like to comment on what I said and hear from the two sides as to the suitability of making the other day and perhaps get some more comments dealing an exclusion on some other ground. The Act doesn't give with the exclusions in section 21(1)(1). I think it's worth any further guidance as to what those additional grounds bringing it up again because I know the Alberta Union of could be. It merely says to the board that if a case is made Provincial Employees is not happy with this, as I'm sure out, they can hear it and grant the application. the Attorney General is well aware. They think that who I would agree, Mr. Chairman, that to have a provision should be excluded from the bargaining unit should be dealt like that is perhaps unique in labour relations law in Canada, with at the bargaining table in negotiations between the but Alberta has shown leadership before and would want union and the provincial government. It seems to me that to continue in this area. As I see it, the essence and the that's not unreasonable when I look at what is happening really important aspect of it is that the board will act in in the rest of Canada. its proper quasi-judicial capacity. This provision does not We're told that the present exclusion provisions in Alberta statutorily instruct them to do this or do that. They will are already the most restrictive in all 10 provinces, according hear argument from both sides and make a determination. to the National Union of Provincial Government Employees. They are indeed entirely free to use precedents from any For example, in Saskatchewan all exclusions are negotiable. jurisdiction in coming to a conclusion, if it is an application Most are in B.C. Adding "or for any other reason" to the that relates to the amended portion. I've already noted that 1312 ALBERTA HANSARD June 3, 1985

where the exclusion is statutory, of course they're not at take this in the broadest possible way, sure they could still liberty. But if it's one made under this new area of have collective bargaining, but it seems to me, if it comes jurisdiction that may be granted to them by this amendment, down to it, when you say as in section 21(1) that they then they can follow any precedent they want and make "may" exclude — the hon. Attorney General knows what any determination they wish in respect to that. I'm talking about. It seems to me that that necessarily stops I would not want to go on at great length, Mr. Chairman, collective bargaining, that that board now has a lot of power. on the balance of the hon. leader's remarks but will just I suppose, theoretically they could exclude the whole union add this. I think there are jurisdictions in Canada where under this Act. I don't imagine they would do that. That they dearly wish they had legislation more like ours in the would be pretty silly politically, but I expect with that type area of public service labour relations. I think the federal of power, giving them these exclusions and adding "or for government is probably still crying over what they did a any other reason," theoretically could mean that's it for number of years ago when they decided that everybody in the whole union. the federal public service should have a capacity to strike I guess I'm asking the Attorney General what were his that they never had before in the history of the country. fears? Why did we bring in this particular Act? We have not gone that way. Other provinces have done so to varying degrees. I know the argument; the argument is MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, I really am enjoying that the public servant should be in much the same employer/ discussing the philosophical premises with the hon. leader. employee relations as employees in the private sector and I should say that very often when legislation is proposed that there's a certain justice involved in conferring that upon to be amended, an agency of government — a board, them. commission, or an organization of that sort — would come We have not yet been persuaded that that outweighs the forward with ideas based on their experience. For example, evil of public sector strikes, and for that reason when this we've recently had a number of proposals from the Human legislation originally came into force in the late 1970s, it Rights Commission. That would be very typical of an was designed to confer much in the way of a labour relation organization functioning pursuant to statute within our pro• structure that had not existed before in our province but vincial framework that comes forward with thoughts of not to confer everything that exists in the private sector in amendments. the sense of the capacity to strike and some other factors The Public Service Employee Relations Board didn't relative to arbitral items and the makeup of bargaining units happen to make this particular proposal. They made some and the like, some of which the hon. leader has indeed of the other ones in the very same Bill. It is the government's touched upon in his remarks. That is the rationalization, view that the legislation should provide the board with that Mr. Chairman. It has simply been our view that the element additional flexibility. It may well be that that particular of apparent fairness there may be in treating people equally amendment would never be used, because the board would cannot be balanced by the overwhelming public concern have to have an application in front of it which it couldn't that there would be if the public service was in a position consider under any of the other headings. The hon. leader in our province legally to undertake strikes, as they do in has already noted that the other headings cover a fair amount some other jurisdictions. of territory. This would have to be something that one of the parties would come forward with and say that a careful MR. MARTIN: It's clear we have a philosophical difference reading of the other exclusions doesn't allow an application here. I don't believe in government intervention where to be made on a particular point. I can't give the hon. unnecessary, and I thought Conservative governments believed leader an example of that right off. But they would be in that too. When Conservative governments say to me, as I the position where, if the argument was made, they were think the hon. Attorney General said, that they want more persuaded, and they saw the correctness of the argument flexibility, I get nervous. The question is flexibility for in their view as a quasi-judicial body, then they could act whom? If we want to say that we're unique across the on it. I say again, it may be that the section would not be country in terms of being antilabour, I guess we are. The used. It is probably fairly plain that it would be little used, hon. Attorney General agrees that this is perhaps unique in if at all, because of the other provisions of the same section. Canada, as he put it, but frankly, it's not something that But I have to add just a very little bit on the hon. I particularly agree with. I wonder what we need the leader's comments relative to the overall philosophy on flexibility for, because as the Attorney General said, there public service labour relations. I think of some of the are the statutory groups that are already excluded. Can you agonies of populations in various places in Canada, and let give me some examples of why we might need this? What us not even think of where they occur elsewhere. But we did the government perceive when they were looking at this see that it's been part of our history over many years, for legislation that they need to give this board power like this? example, that police forces may not strike, and we learn They must have had some examples or had some concerns of other places where they have democratized their system, about what was going to happen, because frankly, I don't if I can use that word, in real defiance of the interests of see the need for it. the public and those jurisdictions allow police forces to If we want to talk about the public service, right now strike. What better example could there be? Then we see they don't have the final collective bargaining right, the the agonies of those other communities. That is something "or else", if you like, the right to strike. They don't have that Alberta has not had to face. It is the wisdom of the that. We've cut back in some other ways. We have to take years, in my view, and it's something we hope to maintain in the fiscal responsibility of the Treasurer and all sorts of in a society which wants to retain that balance of the public other things that we've argued about in the past, but I interest always in the forefront. really would like to know why we needed this much The hon. leader could say, if he wished to, that he flexibility, if I can use the Attorney General's words. What might agree with me on that but that they are essential and did they see happening? What groups do they think the others are not, so why do you have such a broadly applied board would have to move on to exclude and why? If you law? Our answer to that is one of principle as well. The June 3, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 1313

member of the public doesn't have an alternative to the why I asked for specific examples of why we needed this, services his government provides. I have sometimes tried but the Attorney General says he couldn't think of any off to note it here in this way: if Superstore goes on strike, the top of his head. I would say then, Mr. Attorney General, hopefully Safeway and Woodward's don't, so I can go there, that we'd better do better than that in the Bill, because or vice versa. But what if the Land Titles Office goes on we're giving a quasi-judicial body absolute power, and I strike? Where do you find a private-sector Land Titles want to know why. I think that's not an unreasonable thing Office? The citizen who is paying the way, if we can put to know here in the Legislature. I thought there might be it this way, where does he turn for his service then? Who some reasons. There may be a small group, but as I read is to say that the public should go through the potentially it, when we say "any other reason," it can be for any long and trying experience of a strike in an essential service reason, then. If the quasi-judicial body that we're talking like the Land Titles Office, the court clerks, the jail guards, about does not like this or that particular group they can or whatever and say at some point: "Well, it won't be too say, "You're excluded." That's the end of the collective bad. We'll all take the heat for a while. It'll help the bargaining. Is that what we mean to do here? That's precisely bargaining. Then we'll pass a law or some other type of what I think we should know when we're passing a Bill order and make them stop". And do what? "Get them to like this. arbitration, by George; that'll fix them all, and we'll have a settlement." Our system provides at the outset that the MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, I will surely answer bargaining takes place so long as it can and then the the hon. leader, but I thought I should just confess to him movement to the arbitration process, which, I suggest to that the reason the discussion I was embarked upon dealt hon. members, is very fair, because the Public Service with rather broader items was that the hon. leader in his Employee Relations Board itself doesn't conduct those arbi• remarks just prior to that had made some remark to the trations. Those arbitrations are yet another step away from effect that it is the view of some people that our legislation the ability of government to influence in any way. is unfair to labour. We have never believed that, and I So those are a few of the philosophical considerations, don't think many people do. Therefore, I had to make a and only a few, Mr. Chairman, that underlie, in fact, the few remarks directed toward that. framework of this type of legislation. Mr. Chairman, I think there are any number of reasons the hon. leader was probably right when he said he was MR. MARTIN: We are somewhat off the topic, because exaggerating. I realize now we are covering some ground the government had decided a long time ago that they that has in part been covered already this evening, but one weren't going to let the provincial employees go on strike. must look at the purpose of the entire section and see that When they were running for election in 1970, taking on for reasons of public policy the Legislative Assembly has the Social Credit, there were nice big pages. I remember declared that certain persons shall not be included in a they were for it then, because they were trying to get their bargaining unit. That is a matter for determination in a votes. But that's not the point. They've already taken away public way, in a parliamentary atmosphere such as this, the right to strike. It was by arbitration. We don't like how the arbitration goes, so now we have to take into and those determinations were made. consideration what the Treasurer says. I'm talking specif• Then we come down to 21(1)(1) where an addition is ically now, after all that. I could talk about legal strikes, made to the numbers of categories where the board could that countries where they don't want it and where they have exclude a person. Subsection (I) refers to excluding a person fewer strikes are some of the social democratic countries from a bargaining unit "by reason of the duties and respon• where they have more authority, but I'll keep to the Bill. sibilities he has to his employer." Lawyers are pretty neat I think we have to be very careful when we take people's folk. As soon as they get arguing one of these things, they rights away. Certainly, we know that collective bargaining start defining "duties" and "responsibilities", and with a is considered a basic right by the United Nations. little assistance from legal precedent they can come up with entirely different descriptions of both of those straightforward But why this now? All the protections the hon. Attorney General was talking about were already there. Now, as I words. I would say to the hon. leader that what has really said, we're giving this quasi-judicial board, as he terms it, been varied is the apparent limitation that the argument grounds for exclusion, "or for any other reason." I ask under subsection (1) must be based on duties and respon• the Attorney General: is my assessment right, that under sibilities to the employer. All of the other provisions ahead this jurisdiction they could virtually wipe out the union, if of subsection (1) touch in some way or other either on they decided to do this? I'm talking about the legalities of duties and responsibilities, and that's why this is meant to it. The Attorney General may say: "They won't do that; be consistent with that, or upon some other well established it'll hardly ever be used" or "It should never be used." principle. What has been done here is to look at the potential If that's the case, I don't know why we're putting something of, I suppose, the narrowness of definition and say, "If it that we don't intend to use into a Bill. Is my assessment is not a duty or a responsibility to the employer, then right? With this type of power, would it be possible to should there not be a discretion which the board can embark basically eliminate the union if this quasi-judicial body so upon on its own?" I think it's important to remember that decided? I think that's important; we have to look at what a quasi-judicial board, operating pursuant to statute, is not Bills can do and what they're meant to do. The reality is in any sense an arm of government. It is there in order to that things can heat up in negotiations. People can get mad. resolve the differences between the parties, one of which The provincial government negotiators can get mad and say: is the government or a government agency in all of these "We've had it. We should knock these jail guards out, provincial, public service employee situations. because we don't like their attitude." The next time, the What the entire section really contemplates is that the social workers: "We don't like their attitude. They should board would look at something very specific, and I think be excluded because they're being too militant." this is the point by saying "a person . . . shall not be I may be exaggerating, but I don't think so, because included." It would perhaps be the job description of a when you say "for any other reason," I get nervous. That's single position at a certain level which might verge upon 1314 ALBERTA HANSARD June 3, 1985 management but which might be falling on either side of [Motion carried] it, depending on argument. It might then be more than a single person; it might be a group or classification of a Bill 32 certain type of work or employment, certain types of duties Alberta Mortgage and Housing Corporation perhaps. In that sense it's directed at fine-tuning the organ• Amendment Act, 1985 ization in probably the only way it can be done, and that is by a quasi-judicial body hearing both sides of the case and making a determination. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? It is not and could not be the agent or representative of government for the purpose of implementing government [Title and preamble agreed to] policy with respect to the bargaining units. Government policy is implemented by the legislation, and the only MR. SHABEN: Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill 32, the opportunity the government then has as an employer beyond Alberta Mortgage and Housing Corporation Amendment Act, that is the same one the employees have; that is, to appear 1985, be reported. before the board and make out a case on one side or other. I don't think there should be any thought that a board under [Motion carried] any of our statutes is there to act capriciously or without a judicial approach. I think the record over all the years Bill 33 shows that boards and agencies which function pursuant to Individual's Rights Protection statute in this way do act in a judicial way. I think I would Amendment Act, 1985 have to say to the hon. leader that operating from precedent, from a duty not to act capriciously, from a responsibility to provide for a fair hearing, to hear the entire case on MR. MARTIN: This is an important Bill. There are a few both sides, and to give its reasons for its decision: operating comments I would like to make on this, Mr. Chairman. from all of those well-established principles, it is unthinkable First of all, I have no complaints about what's in there, that this provision would be abused by an independently but I think the Bill is riddled with some omissions. I am operating, statutory board. curious as to why. For instance, I'm glad that we moved in the direction against the discrimination against age, and MR. MARTIN: It may well be. We certainly hope so. the amendment to section 7 is excellent. It states that pregnant What we're looking at right now is the Act and what it women who are discriminated against by sex rather than could and couldn't do. pregnancy; in other words, the definition of sex includes Can the Attorney General assure this Assembly that this pregnancy. I think those are positive steps. board would not have the power to strip away, say, a whole I think it's our job here in opposition to try to raise group of people who are members of the AUPE right now, concerns that were brought to us by certain groups and to for example, social workers or prison guards? Is the Attorney see why they were not included. Let me just go through General saying that they do or do not have the authority four or five of the omissions, Mr. Chairman. First of all, under this Act to do that? Whether they would act capri• discrimination on the basis of a criminal conviction for ciously or not, as the Attorney General says, it seems to which a pardon has been granted: in a proposal by the me that's the intent of legislation. We should be a little Elizabeth Fry Society of Calgary a pardon is granted after clearer on what we mean, if that's the case. All I'm asking the RCMP have investigated the applicant and are satisfied is: would they have the authority, as he sees it in this Bill? that the applicant has been on good behaviour and that the The Attorney General is sponsoring it. If it came up again, we'd know in the Legislature precisely, would they have conviction should no longer adversely reflect on the appli• the power to do that? cant's character. The unreasonable prejudices of society, even where they have the pardon to prove that they have MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, there is certainly a short been on good behaviour for years, are often a huge obstacle answer to that, and the answer is no, they would not. This to rehabilitation. I'm told, and the minister may have new provision is of the same character as all the other provisions information, that this still is not the case. They specifically of the section, with the one exception, that it creates a want that in that particular case. We're not talking about further discretion or flexibility as to what a decision might people who are in jail for a limited period. We're talking be in a specific case. I would say that it's entirely clear about where they have been pardoned. to me, in the sense of how the statute law would be The other one is discrimination against the mentally interpreted, that it could never be used to dismantle an handicapped. I understand this was a proposal by the Human entire bargaining unit or anything similar. Rights Commission and the Canadian Mental Health Asso• [Title and preamble agreed to] ciation, that mental disabilities should be included as a protected class and the definition should specify that mental MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill 30 be disability means previous or existing mental disorder, whether reported. actual or perceived. It's my understanding, Mr. Chairman, that this provision is contained in the federal Charter and, [Motion carried] I believe, in some recently enacted legislation in Manitoba, Ontario, and British Columbia, as some examples. Bill 24 Another proposal by the Human Rights Commission is Disaster Services Amendment Act, 1985 discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. I know a number of groups have lobbied the government there. Age: MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? we had that down at one time, but to their credit the government has moved on that. Discrimination on the basis [Title and preamble agreed to] of marital status: apparently this is another proposal by the MR. M. MOORE: Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill 24 be Human Rights Commission, where marital status should be reported. added to the preamble and protection should also include June 3, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 1315 applications and advertisements for employment; marital view. In other words, we're really addressing people who status should be defined to include common-law relationships have been completely rehabilitated. If it were not so, then so that the Act reflects current social practices. Whether the police check on the record of those people in the we like it or not, people choose the way they want to live. community — which is very thorough, I'm advised — It is my understanding that even under here there isn't the wouldn't turn out to be positive. same protection if people are living common-law. To begin with then, rehabilitation isn't that significant, The Human Rights Commission also recommends the in my judgment, and without getting into what society said inclusion of a definition of reasonable accommodation and what, there isn't concurrence among them on that particular that reasonable accommodation be provided for the limi• point. Secondly, it became apparent from the intense dis• tations or special needs of a person with physical disability. cussions I did have with representatives that the motivation I believe they wanted it to be applied to public accom• for that inclusion in the statute is in the hope that it will modation, tenancy, and employment practices. Again: not deny information to people so that someone with a criminal here. Also, the commission wants its powers of investigation conviction who's been pardoned wouldn't have any infor• to be similar to those outlined in the Employment Standards mation on record that could be found out. This is often Act and the Labour Relations Act, Mr. Chairman. Sug• very important. It was expressed to me by persons who gestions by the commission as to the powers of boards of have rehabilitated. They become parents of children who inquiry were also ignored. are in their late teens or early 20s who may become Those are the specific omissions. Could the minister tell inquisitive and start looking through files and whatnot, they us why? I know there are groups — the Human Rights may become grandparents, or they may be very advanced Commission, under his own department, specifically made in society in whatever circles they're moving. some of these recommendations. Their real objective is to have the record removed so Finally, the addition of 11.1, as proposed in the Bill, there isn't any information there that people could normally makes me somewhat nervous, Mr. Chairman. It's extremely get hold of. This statute can't accomplish that. As a matter vague. I guess we have to look into these words. We've of fact, it was as a consequence of my discussions that one just had this exercise with the Attorney General. What of those societies has now written to Ottawa and asked the exactly does "reasonable and justifiable in the circumstan• federal government to address the question of the information ces" mean? Again, some regulations are called for in order on files when pardons are given, so that it wouldn't be to make the intent of it more specific and clear. Whenever freely available, if in fact that's a good concept. They raised I have these words "reasonable and justifiable in the cir• it, and in their view that would be a much greater achieve• cumstances", I think that leaves a lot of flexibility and ment than what we could put in this statute, which would vagueness. simply prohibit the use of the information in a discriminatory If he could, I would like the minister to comment on manner once information is obtained but would have nothing why some of these omissions were made after various groups, to do with preventing the transfer of that information. I specifically the Human Rights Commission, were advocating came to the conclusion that it was not the kind of initiative, them. As I say, it's not that I could vote against what we on our part, that was really going to achieve most of the have in the Act; it's just that I think it could have been objectives that the parties were hoping for when they had more comprehensive. I think some of the omissions are advanced the request. serious ones, and I hope the government is still rethinking With respect to the inclusion of mental disability, I have what they're doing in these areas. had, as you might sense, a rather difficult time with this concept, partly because of the very definition itself. Who MR. YOUNG: Mr. Chairman, to respond to the hon. leader, is mentally disabled and who is not? It is a challenge at first of all, I'd address the question of the Elizabeth Fry the very best of times to know under statute who is and Society's suggestion of criminal conviction for which a who isn't. There are very complex procedures. pardon has been received. I can say to hon. members that I was favoured with the opportunity to attend, and address I had discussions not only with Elizabeth Fry but, on an as well, a day-long seminar put on by the Canadian Mental earlier occasion, with Seventh Step in Calgary — we received Health Association in Calgary, with a considerable battery some correspondence from Seventh Step — and with the of very talented legal advice plus staff from the universities, John Howard Society as well. Those were people operating psychiatrists and psychologists who are very skilled in this in roughly the same area: the rehabilitation of persons who area. At the conclusion of that seminar I came to the have had criminal convictions. Obviously, I also had dis• judgment that my earlier decision had in fact been the cussions with other people or representative groups who correct one. There are many unanswered questions. The might have a variety of opinions and came to the conclusion same fear and objection or hesitation I have was raised in that, first of all, if we're talking about rehabilitation, none that seminar by some of the experts in mental competence of the groups with which I spoke held out a great deal of or mental disability who took quite large swings at the legal significance for inclusion of that prohibition, if you will, profession for being out of date and not up to speed in in the statute as being very significant in terms of reha• terms of the definition that ought appropriately to be in bilitation. legislation generally, not just this legislation, if we were The fact of the matter is that there has to be a very going to use it. significant time period, usually a minimum of five years I was also concerned by the large amount of rights after the sentence has been completely served for whatever legislation which we've had, with section 15 of the Charter the conviction was. There must be at least a clear five- and changes we have made, and found the results a little year period before an application for pardon can be initiated. different than we'd expected under physical disability which, If one reflects upon that, that means we are looking at at presumably, from my point of view, should be a much least six or seven years after the total sentence has been easier area to administer. When I tried to explore what the served. Clearly, it is in that period of time that the greatest effect of the inclusion of mental disability had been in other stress is on the individual from a rehabilitation point of provinces, frankly I couldn't find that it had much result. 1316 ALBERTA HANSARD June 3, 1985

I think the real problem in the mental disability area isn't in statutes wherever they are and could raise a lot of going to be affected very much, if at all, by any amendment difficulties for which we, frankly, don't really know the that's suggested in the short run. I've no disagreement about answers yet. That's the reason it wasn't proceeded with. reassessing it after we have digested more of what the It's a very, very complex area, and since the institute is Charter means to us or may mean to us and after we've in the process, as I mentioned, of doing a study, and that seen the experience in some other provinces that have study is at least a year under way, we decided to await embarked upon it in other areas. further developments. With respect to sexual orientation, I've had some meetings With respect to reasonable accommodation, this is a and many letters on this particular topic. Again, I want to concept which has not any definition in other legislation make it clear that people who are of a sexual orientation anywhere. In my discussions what the commission sought which is not covered — in the statute we don't deal with to achieve was a recognition on the part of the respondents sexual orientation, whatever the orientation. I say to all that they should acknowledge that the commission has the hon. members that if we're going to deal with it, we should capacity to try to bring the parties together to achieve a be more specific than sexual orientation because, in fact, consensus. There is a great fear in the community that the there are sexual orientations or sexual practices which are commission already has plenty of clout in this respect and very much against the Criminal Code, and we wouldn't that the reasonable accommodation might lead to a position want to encompass those. I think we may as well call it where the commission was exercising more muscle than the what it is. We're really addressing the question of heter- community wanted to see. While I don't think that would osexuality and homosexuality in the normal sense of the be the case, the fact is that it's hard to identify what terms. Having reviewed that carefully and listened to what reasonable accommodation is. We will come to it when we I thought were the most sincere expressions I've heard to get to another point the hon. leader has raised with me. date from the homosexual community, I do not believe we So we have instead — and I'd refer the hon. member could deliver the kind of security that is being sought by to amendment 9, to section 20. We have tried to reinforce homosexuals through the Individual's Rights Protection Act. the capacity of the commission to effect a settlement. There We may be able to go some measure, had we included it. already is in section 20 a charge to the commission to But concerns were expressed to me by individuals about endeavour to effect a settlement. We are following through how difficult it was to be well regarded by their parents, the steps that the commission may proceed with, adding a and they see inclusion in the statute as assisting them in fifth provision which makes it very clear that the commission some manner in that respect. may make recommendations. I think that while it may not Also, I had a great fear that with respect to the emphasis address all the requests the commission made, it is a on employment — and it's very great with that community considerable step toward what I believe was their objective — a security of employment that they perceive. In fact, in advancing the notion of reasonable accommodation. there were not a lot of illustrations given. There were a The power of investigation: hon. members would know few this time, because I challenged them very vigorously that the Charter of Rights is now in effect. There was a in 1980 to present to me some illustrations of problems in recent court case, I believe involving the Edmonton Journal, employment which accrued out of homosexual identification. which raised some questions about powers of investigation. Five or six illustrations were presented to me, and I didn't That has caused the government to do some assessment of challenge them in any respect. I just accepted them at face existing statute and existing powers. That internal review value. But still, not a great lot. is under way, but we concluded that given that we were There is something that's a bit deceptive, and we find trying to assess what would be viable with the Constitution, it in the administration of the Act in general. We have to we should not try amending something that has been effective realize with this statute and the Employment Standards Act for quite a number of years, tinkering with it to change it that we cannot put together a healthy relationship in the slightly when we weren't absolutely sure of the best of way worksite if that has been destroyed through personality of doing so. That's the reason that wasn't dealt with on conflict. Whether it should or shouldn't have been is another this particular occasion. question, but once the emotions are raised and once there Mr. Chairman, the last point raised was the question of has been a vigorous disagreement between employer and "reasonable and justifiable" which would be amendment 5. employee, we are unable to provide the kind of security Do you wish, hon. leader, the long explanation or the short that most people seek in an employment relationship. We explanation? can require them to be reinstated on that issue, but it will not be a positive situation. We cannot change attitudes, if AN HON. MEMBER: Please. you will, in an immediate sense, through our statute. With respect to marital status, which was recommended MR. YOUNG: In essence, our statute is very absolute in by the commission to be included, we have quite a variety the manner in which it is expressed. Most provincial statutes of different definitions, if you will, for marital status in and the Charter have a broader exemption provision which various statutes in government. We have put them there allows for the exercise of discretion. That must be so directed to specific needs, depending upon what the service because rights are not absolute, and the more we put into was that is to be delivered, whether it's workers' compen• statute the more conflict we find between rights. What we sation, social services, or whatever. The Institute of Law are doing here is addressing the problem of conflict and Research and Reform is doing a very thorough analysis of saying, "How do we resolve conflicts of rights?" It seemed the marital status question. They are about one year, I to us that in a provision of this nature, which has some believe, into that analysis. We expect a report from the similarity to the one in the Charter — we do live in a institute maybe late this year, if not, next year. We decided democracy, so I think we can take it as a given that we that until we receive that report, we should not venture could omit some of the words that are included in the into paramountcy legislation, which would, whatever defi• Charter since this would be existing within that complex nition we used here, take precedence over all other definitions — there should be an exercise of discretion available to the June 3, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 1317

administration of the statute. That means that judgment is MR. YOUNG: Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill 33, the going to be exercised, in the first instance, by officers of Individual's Rights Protection Amendment Act, 1985, be the commission, by the commission itself, by boards of reported. inquiry, or by the court, depending upon the nature of the case and how far it has proceeded. [Motion carried] We also had the objective of trying to remove an uneasiness in the community about the ability to undertake Bill 34 special projects. By virtue of this provision and the removal of section ll(l)(b) of the existing statute, we believe that Student and Temporary Employment Act special projects should now be able to proceed with relative certainty as to their acceptance under the statute. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? [Title and preamble agreed to] MR. NELSON: Mr. Chairman, just a couple of comments and maybe a question on the concerns I have regarding the MR. ISLEY: Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill 34, the Act as it has developed. In employment situations it would Student and Temporary Employment Act, be reported. now read for reasons of "bona fide occupational require• ment," rather than "bona fide occupational qualifications." [Motion carried] "Physical characteristics" is being renamed "physical dis• ability"; I'm concerned about the term "disability". From Bill 35 an employer point of view, what may be a disability to Apprenticeship, Training and some may not be to others. Certiflcation Act Will we be narrowing the area of "qualification" and MR. GURNETT: A few comments, Mr. Chairman, on some "disability" to force employers to hire persons who, for of the amendments that were presented to us with regard one reason or another, may not be suited for a particular to Bill 35. Let me start by complimenting one of those job? If they're not hired for particular reasons, could they amendments, the one that will allow representatives of be deemed to have discriminated against the person because employees on the boards. They're obviously good people. of the terms that are now going to be used? It will permit representatives of the unions to do their jobs. They're probably the best qualified people. So I certainly MR. YOUNG: Mr. Chairman, to respond to the hon. want to commend the minister for listening to the Official member's observations. First of all, the two changes are Opposition and the organizations that represent trades in the being made at the recommendation of the commission, based province in bringing in that particular amendment, which upon their administrative experience, and the two changes is very good. relate in a way. The commission found that when they I have some concerns, however, about a couple of the looked at the job requirements, which they do, they found other amendments that we're looking at with Bill 35. The that "requirement" was a better description than "quali• amendment to section 20(3) concerns me, because I just fication," because what someone may list as qualifications don't know how we're ever going to be able tell if an may not, in fact, when the job is examined, be requirements employer has "knowingly" permitted unqualified or other• of the job. They were tending to make decisions based wise prohibited people from working as tradespeople in upon the requirements, not necessarily somebody's stated designated trades. It's a thing that's so difficult and cum• qualifications, which may not be realistic. They felt it would bersome to identify that I think it ends up leaving a large communicate more effectively by changing the expression number of loopholes that are automatically going to be to "requirement." That relates to the question of physical skewed in favour of the employer. I think that creates an characteristics, because characteristics is a very broad term. unfair situation, Mr. Chairman, and the onus instead should Disability is a narrower expression, and it becomes even be on the employer to ensure that his workers are in fact narrower when it's related to requirement, because is it a qualified and not on the unions to have to prove that the disability in relation to the requirement? We think it's easier employer knew he was hiring unqualified people. So respon• for one to understand that tie between the two. sibility would rest where it really should be rather than When we address the final point that I think you're where this amendment is going to end up directing it and, making, I'd have to advise that any complainant can try to as I say, creating an almost impossible situation for the get a complaint before the commission. Whether it will be unions to do this anyway. sustained beyond the preliminary investigation is a very I'm also concerned about the amendment that's proposed different question. The commission tries to screen those out to section 22, Mr. Chairman. Right now this says that no very quickly. I don't think it would be the objective of the contravention of the Act can have a penalty in excess of commission nor from my experience is it an objective of $1,000. That would be the maximum possible for any the physically disabled community to try to undertake jobs offence. The Act originally set out that offences after the for which they are not able. I've just had no experience first offence could be liable for up to $2,000 fines. I'm of that type with that community. As a matter of fact, the concerned that this particular amendment has taken away experience is that those disabled employees, once they find any encouragement for employers to try to hold their offences employment which they can do effectively, are better pro• down to one. Now there's no greater penalty for successive ducers and also better employees in terms of the length offences than for a single offence. and regularity of their employment than are employees in I'd also be interested in the minister's giving us some general. I don't think we need have a fear in the direction indication about some of the many areas that he received that you've indicated. suggestions from some of the trades organizations about further amendments. For example, I have a letter from the [Title and preamble agreed to] Southern Alberta Building and Construction Trades Council 1318 ALBERTA HANSARD June 3, 1985 that went into some detail about a large number of suggested I think the other area of confusion that came to light amendments that were not dealt with. I'm interested in their in our discussions with both employee and employer groups suggestions about amendments to section 10(2), for example, following the introduction of Bill 35 was that we have the and why the minister felt their suggestions there should be Bill, which is legislation, then we have general regulations ignored, and also their suggestions with regard to section which will pick up many of the concerns that have been 15. I know there were a lot of other areas that they made expressed, and then individual regulations for each trade. suggestions on and that other trades groups suggested amend• I can assure the hon. member and the House that there is ments that would create a Bill that was a little fairer and no intention under this Act to bring in a subjourneyman wouldn't water down the power of trades to be involved category, and there is nothing in this Act that is weaker in regulation. Perhaps the minister could comment on that. than the original Manpower Development Act in that regard. When we talked about this Bill in second reading, I referred to the danger of the Bill's creating the possibility MR. CHAIRMAN: There is an amendment to Bill 35. of a subjourneyman category. At that time I know the minister reassured us that there was no such intention in Bill 35. I mentioned at that time the fact that the Northern [Motion on amendment carried] Alberta Institute of Technology seemed to be advertising courses that could be described as falling within a sub- [Title and preamble agreed to] journeyman category. I would appreciate the minister spe• cifically explaining to us how this kind of technician course MR. ISLEY: Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill 35 be reported that NAIT is advertising is not made possible by what we as amended. have in this Bill in section 20(l)(a)(viii), for example, which says that the executive director can create a place for this [Motion carried] kind of subjourneyman category, or in section 20(1)(a)(i), which creates this category of helpers. Bill 36 It seems to me that quite specifically in section 20, we Rural Utilities Act have the possibility of these subjourneyman type categories being created. As I said when we were looking at this Bill MR. CHAIRMAN: There are amendments to this Bill. in second reading, my fear is that the result of that possibility of creating these other categories in those two sections is that we'll end up with a watering down of the apprenticeship [Motion on amendments carried] system in this province. I know there are thousands and thousands of tradespeople in Alberta who are very concerned [Title and preamble agreed to] about that very kind of watering down. I would appreciate some comment on what assurance there is that, in fact, this MR. BOGLE: Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill 36, the Bill will not make possible these subjourneyman categories Rural Utilities Act, be reported as amended. of employees who would then threaten the conventional apprenticeship structure. [Motion carried]

MR. ISLEY: Mr. Chairman, just to respond briefly to two Bill 37 or three of the points raised by the Member for Spirit River-Fairview, the amendment regarding the possibility of Health Disciplines Amendment Act, 1985 representatives of employees sitting on the Apprenticeship and Trade Certification Board and the local advisory com• MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? mittees is simply bringing the current Act back to reflect the original Act more. It was never the intent to change it. [Title and preamble agreed to] Section 22 was actually an amendment made in response DR. REID: I move that Bill 37, the Health Disciplines to many of the representations we received from the employer/ Amendment Act, 1985, be reported. worker groups, in particular. I think the hon. member is misreading it. The new section 22 is a little stiffer than [Motion carried] the old one in that we're talking progressive fines as opposed to individual fines; in other words, that minimum fine per Bill 38 day of offence as opposed to one fine and then a successive fine. Vital Statistics Amendment Act, 1985 The subjourneyman category and the concern with respect to section 20 has been cleared up in the minds of most of MR. CHAIRMAN: There are some amendments. the people that expressed concerns, I think. Actually, all that section 20 does is take about three sections of the old [Motion on amendments carried] Act and pull them into one. There is nothing under section 20 that does not currently exist in the Manpower Devel• opment Act. As was explained when this Act was introduced, [Title and preamble agreed to] one of our purposes was to try to pull it together, make DR. WEBBER: Mr. Chairman, on behalf of the Member it simpler to read, take the things out of it that should be for Edmonton Sherwood Park, I move that Bill 38, Vital in the Department of Manpower Act, and take other things Statistics Amendment Act, 1985, be reported as amended. out of it which should be in regulation and put them in the general regulations. [Motion carried] June 3, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 1319

Bill 40 legislation we will be bringing this legislation in line with the situation that exists with the Oil and Gas Conservation Mines and Minerals Amendment Act, 1985 Act and the Oil Sands Conservation Act. Having said that, I certainly recognize the concern he has raised. I don't MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? think this adjustment will give rise to the sorts of possible problems he has alluded to. [Title and preamble agreed to] MR. ZAOZIRNY: Mr. Chairman, I move that the Bill be [Title and preamble agreed to] reported. MR. ZAOZIRNY: Mr. Chairman, I move that the Bill be [Motion carried] reported.

Bill 41 [Motion carried] Pipeline Amendment Act, 1985 Bill 43 MR. MARTIN: Just a couple of comments. I wasn't here Alberta Corporate Income Tax for second reading of this particular Bill. I have some Amendment Act, 1985 concerns about quasi-judicial bodies, as we put it. I under• stand this particular Bill takes powers previously available MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? to cabinet and gives approval of pipelines to the ERCB. I know the hon. minister of energy will say it's because [Title and preamble agreed to] they're the best body to deal with it because of the technical end of it. One concern I have, and I want to say it very MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Chairman, I move that the Bill be clearly, is that I'm always a little leery when more power reported. is going outside the Legislature to quasi-judicial bodies. We just had this discussion. It becomes harder and harder for [Motion carried] us to question a particular minister under responsible democ• racy. The minister of energy and I have had this discussion Bill 45 about the ERCB from time to time: basically, it's up to them, and I don't interfere with them. We could take this Local Authorities Pension Plan Act for almost all aspects of government and keep shifting it out to quasi-judicial bodies, but it would be very difficult MR. CHAIRMAN: There is an amendment to this Bill. for this Legislature to have control over certain areas. I could foresee a situation, Mr. Chairman, where a [Motion on amendment carried] pipeline was seen as necessary by the opposition, but we couldn't push the government for it. Or it might be that a [Title and preamble agreed to] particular pipeline is dangerous, expensive, unnecessary, but MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Chairman, I move that the Bill as we couldn't ask about it in the Legislature because the amended be reported. minister would just say that's under the jurisdiction of the ERCB. It seems to me that we have to be somewhat careful [Motion carried] when we start shifting more and more power to quasi- judicial bodies. I say that to the minister because we have Bill 46 had this discussion. I know the answers for dealing with the ERCB because of a technical thing, but surely some Universities Academic Pension Plan Act political questions could come up as the result of a Bill like this. The minister will still have to be responsible for MR. CHAIRMAN: There are some amendments. the ERCB so we can ask questions. If all the answers we get are that it's beyond our means, it's over with the ERCB, [Motion on amendments carried] I think the minister can see the danger of that ultimately. It becomes very difficult to check this in the Legislature. [Title and preamble agreed to] That's why it frightens me somewhat when we take power MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Chairman, I move that the Bill be away, if you like, from Executive Council and push it onto reported as amended. a quasi-judicial body. I hope this wouldn't be the case. I give the example that a pipeline might be a very big political [Motion carried] debate, but if we couldn't ask that question because it's under the jurisdiction of the ERCB, I think this would be Bill 47 a dereliction, if I can put it that way, of all our duties here in the Legislature. Special Forces Pension Plan Act

MR. ZAOZIRNY: If I might speak to the comment, Mr. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Chairman, I think the hon. member makes a fair observation in the broader context in terms of the role of government [Title and preamble agreed to] from a policy standpoint and otherwise. I think, though, I MR. HYNDMAN: I move that the Bill be reported, Mr. can allay the broader concern he has raised. The particular Chairman. legislation is of a very highly technical nature in this particular instance. In fact, with the modification to the [Motion carried] 1320 ALBERTA HANSARD June 3, 1985

Bill 48 Bill 52 Members of the Legislative Assembly Appropriation (Alberta Heritage Savings Pension Plan Act Trust Fund, Capital Projects Division) No. 2 Act, 1985-86 MR. CHAIRMAN: We have amendments to this Bill. [Title and preamble agreed to] [Motion on amendments carried] MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Chairman, I move that the Bill be [Title and preamble agreed to] reported.

MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Chairman, I move that the Bill be [Motion carried] reported as amended. Bill 53 Appropriation (Alberta Heritage Savings [Motion carried] Trust Fund, Capital Projects Division) Supplementary Act, 1985-86 Bill 49

Insurance Amendment Act, 1985 [Title and preamble agreed to]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any questions or comments? MR. HYNDMAN: I move that Bill 53 be reported. [Motion carried] [Title and preamble agreed to] MR. ANDERSON: Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill 49 be MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, I move that the com• reported. mittee rise and report.

[Motion carried] [Motion carried]

Bill 50 [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] Pension Plan Statutes Amendment Act, 1985 MR. APPLEBY: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole Assembly has had under consideration and reports the fol• MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? lowing: Bills 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 11, 12, 15, 17, 20, 22, 23, 24, 25, 30, 32, 33, 34, 37, 40, 41, 43, 47, 49, 50, [Title and preamble agreed to] 51, 52, 53. Mr. Speaker, the Committee also reports the following Bills with some amendments: 8, 9, 14, 19, 28, MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Chairman, I move that the Bill be 29, 35, 36, 38, 45, 46, and 48. reported. MR. SPEAKER: Having heard the report, do you all agree? [Motion carried] HON. MEMBERS: Agreed.

Bill 51 MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker tomorrow afternoon in the hour designated for Government Business, committee would Grain Charges Limitation Repeal Act be called again to consider Bills on the Order Paper. Depending upon progress, hon. members will become aware [Title and preamble agreed to] at some time tomorrow as to whether or not the Assembly MR. TOPOLNISKY: Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill 51, sits tomorrow night. the Grain Charges Limitation Repeal Act, be reported. [At 10:30 p.m., on motion, the House adjourned to Tuesday [Motion carried] at 2:30 p.m.]