JUSTICE COMMITTEE Wednesday 22 June 2011 Session 4 Parliamentary copyright. Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body 2011 Applications for reproduction should be made in writing to the Information Policy Team, Office of the Queen‟s Printer for Scotland, Admail ADM4058, Edinburgh, EH1 1NG, or by email to: [email protected]. OQPS administers the copyright on behalf of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body. Printed and published in Scotland on behalf of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body by RR Donnelley. Wednesday 22 June 2011 CONTENTS Col. OFFENSIVE BEHAVIOUR AT FOOTBALL AND THREATENING COMMUNICATIONS (SCOTLAND) BILL ........................ 81 JUSTICE COMMITTEE 3rd Meeting 2011, Session 4 CONVENER *Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) DEPUTY CONVENER *James Kelly (Rutherglen) (Lab) COMMITTEE MEMBERS *Roderick Campbell (North East Fife) (SNP) *John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) *Colin Keir (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) *John Lamont (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) *Alison McInnes (North East Scotland) (LD) *Graeme Pearson (South Scotland) (Lab) *Humza Yousaf (Glasgow) (SNP) *attended THE FOLLOWING GAVE EVIDENCE: Chloe Clemmons (Church of Scotland) Neil Doncaster (Scottish Premier League) Ronnie Hawthorn (Celtic Football Club) Tim Hopkins (Equality Network) Robert Howat (Celtic Football Club) Michelle Macleod (Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service) David Martin (Rangers Football Club) Frank Mulholland (Lord Advocate) Stewart Regan (Scottish Football Association) CLERK TO THE COMMITTEE Peter McGrath LOCATION Committee Room 2 81 22 JUNE 2011 82 particularly concerned by the fact that live speech Scottish Parliament will not be included because it merits wider consideration, not because there has been a Justice Committee policy discussion. It is worrying that such decisions are being taken simply because of time, without Wednesday 22 June 2011 looking at the wider issue of what is necessary. We are very concerned about how you generate [The Convener opened the meeting at 12:16] ownership of legislation in that way. Offensive Behaviour at Football Secondly, the Government has called for support from across civic Scotland. We would like and Threatening to be part of that process, but the Government has Communications (Scotland) Bill not given civic Scotland a chance to engage with the issues and to work out whether the bill is the The Convener (Christine Grahame): Good best way forward. Law works at its best when the afternoon. I welcome everyone present to the majority of the population think that it represents a Justice Committee‟s third meeting in this session. I collective will. remind everyone to switch off mobile phones and Measures that have been effective, such as the other electronic devices, as they interfere with the smoking ban, work not because they are enforced sound system even when they are switched to but because the passage of the legislation was silent. No apologies have been received. taken to mean that people supported it—it was Item 1 is consideration of the Offensive seen as the collective position. Behaviour at Football and Threatening People chose to stop smoking because of the Communications (Scotland) Bill. This is our legislation, and, more important, people chose to second evidence session on the bill. Before we ask the person next to them to stop smoking begin, I thank all witnesses for agreeing to attend because of it. If we want to use legislation to tackle at such short notice to give evidence on the bill. I sectarianism, we should aspire to that level of also thank those who have made written commitment from the population. We should seek submissions. to introduce legislation to prompt people in the I welcome our first panel of witnesses: Chloe communities that are experiencing the problems to Clemmons, Scottish churches parliamentary say, “I understand that my society has a problem officer, representing the Church of Scotland; and with this, and I‟ll think about that”, and to say to Tim Hopkins, director of the Equality Network. I their peers, “You shouldn‟t do that while I‟m here”. thank Mr Hopkins for his written submission. Given If we want to have that level of ownership over that we have received no written submission from the legislation, we need the communities that are Chloe Clemmons, I invite her to make a short affected by the issue to be in here, having this opening statement to outline the Church of conversation. I am a professional policy officer, Scotland‟s position. and I can drop everything at three days‟ notice to Chloe Clemmons (Church of Scotland): The be here. However, I had very much hoped to be Church of Scotland recognises the seriousness of able to bring some representatives of local the problem of sectarianism and is absolutely projects to come and discuss the ways in which committed to challenging it locally and nationally. the legislation would impact on their work, but that To do that, we work closely with our churches on was not possible in such a short timeframe. the ground in parishes, many of which work with We are not in a position to answer questions local Catholic churches. It is very much an such as, “Do you think this legislation will deter ecumenical effort. It is not about us and them—it is your client group?”, and until those questions are about all of us together, working to solve the answered, we do not know whether the legislation problem. We are pleased that legislation is being is the right thing. It may be the right thing, but put in the context of that wider plan and that maybe something different would be better, and longer-term work will be done in the next couple of we have not had the opportunity to have that years. discussion. We agree that there is a need to clarify the legal In its financial memorandum, the Government process and acknowledge some of the problems says that the legislation is a minimal change and that have been identified. However, we are that it is not seeking to prosecute new offences or concerned that there are two clear difficulties with to increase the number of prosecutions the speed at which the process has been initiated. significantly. That very much suggests that this is First, we do not think that it is possible within a public relations statement to communities about such a tight timeframe to make legislation that is what the Government wants them to do, but we as clear and robust as it can be. We are are not asking those same communities to come 83 22 JUNE 2011 84 and be part of that process and make a collective John Finnie: Are there instances when you statement. We need to slow the process down, think that a time imperative would apply? What and get more people involved in the conversation. factors would override that consideration? The Convener: Thank you. I have one Tim Hopkins: As I understand it, emergency correction: I exonerate the committee from having bills have usually dealt with a sudden problem that anything to do with the process. That was a matter has arisen with the law, often because of a court for the Parliamentary Bureau, and we are with belt case such as the Cadder case. It is usually and braces trying to compensate for it. because the court has struck down a piece of legislation or has found a real problem that needs We will move to questions. to be dealt with as an emergency. John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): We do not think that the bill needs to be dealt Ms Clemmons, you talk about getting the with as an emergency. Arguably, something needs population‟s commitment. What timeframe would to be put in place before the start of the football you say should be applied to ensure that that season, and section 1 of the bill relates to football; happens? section 5, with which we have a big problem, does Chloe Clemmons: The normal parliamentary not directly relate to football matches, so the process works very well, and it is understood well urgency is perhaps not there in that regard. by a lot of organisations in our communities. The However, as other witnesses have said, it is normal method of introducing the legislation and rather unclear whether section 1 introduces new putting out a call for evidence with a three-month substantive criminal offences or whether it is about timeframe enables people to engage with it in their clearly restating the law. It is very valuable to be own groups and then to present their views in a clear about the law, but if the bill is not introducing clear and coherent fashion, and to see one new crimes and if the sort of things that we are another‟s views. Debate happens when you see talking about are already offences, which generally more than one view and then take part in the they are, it could be argued that it is not really an evidence sessions. emergency that requires the legislation to be The Convener: Mr Hopkins, please indicate if brought in by whenever the season starts—by 29 you want to come in. You mentioned that in your July, I think. submission too, so you may wish to respond. The Convener: I seek clarification from the Tim Hopkins (Equality Network): Yes, that is Church of Scotland. Was there no contact right. I am grateful to be invited here today, but I whatever from the ministerial team or the bill team have to say that I am unable to give the same at any stage with regard to the bill? I accept that level of consideration and evidence as I normally we have not gone through the usual process, but would when giving evidence to a parliamentary was there no contact whatever? Were there any committee.