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Home , Arthur Ashe, Charlie Pasarell, Cliff Drysdale, Davis Cup, Donald Dell, Mark McCormack

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Arthur Ashe On & Off the Court

Interviewer: Corey Fried Interviewee: Instructor: Michael Chapper Date: February 17, 2009 Fried 2

Table of Contents

Interview release form 2

Statement of Purpose 3

Biography 4

Historical Contextualization: Endless Determination Can Change the 6

Interview Transcription 15

Time Indexing Recording Log 41

Interview Analysis 42

Works Consulted 46 Fried 3

I nterviewee release form Fried 4

Statement of Purpose

This project serves to obtain knowledge about as a person and his success on and off of the court. This task will be accomplished through an interview with Donald

Dell, founder of sports marketing company ProServ and Ashe’s best friend. This unique perspective will give students researching Arthur Ashe a greater idea of Arthur Ashe than any

textbook would provide. Fried 5

Biography

Donald Dell was born on June 17, 1938 in Bethesda, Maryland. He grew up playing tennis every day at the Edgemoore Tennis Club. Striving to be one of the best players for his age in the local area eventually lead Dell to look at tennis competitively from a more nationwide perspective. Dell played tennis as a teenager as a member of his Landon high school team. After he graduated from Landon, he attended as an undergraduate student and played tennis there as well. Dell later joined the tennis team and played in around the world. Donald Dell retired before he the sport of Tennis was considered “Open” so his team was unable to receive prize money during the time that they competed.

He became Davis cup captain in 1968 with , Arthur Ashe, and Bobby Lutz all on his cup team. Dell was captain for two years and his team won the Davis Cup in both 1968 Fried 6 and 1969. Dell is the only Davis Cup captain to never lose. He resigned as Davis Cup Captain in

1969 to practice law.

Because he was could not make a living off of playing tennis because at that time, because he was technically an amateur, he attended and received a law degree in 1964. He then worked for a well-known law firm in D.C. called Hogan &

Hartson from 1966-1967. After completing law school, and working as an associate at Hogan and Hartson, Dell began what he then considered his “dream job”. He became the special assistant to founder . Dell carried Shriver’s briefcase and traveled with him everywhere. Dell considered those eighteen months to be the time where he learned more than he has his entire life.

Dell became very close with all of his players, particularly Arthur Ashe. Ashe convinced him to become his sports marketing agent. Dell thought the idea of being Ashe and Smith’s sports marketing agent was a ludicrous idea and that it would not work. After much persuasion

Dell accepted the offer. Dell was a successful sports marketer and went on to create and become a major pioneer for the successful sports marketing business ProServ (now known as SFX). In addition to generating thriving businesses he was able to form lasting bonds with both Arthur

Ashe and Stan Smith.

Currently living in Bethesda, Maryland Dell continues to work full time. He is happily married to Carol Dell and has twin daughters named Alexandra (Arthur Ashe’s god daughter) and Kristina (Stan Smith’s god daughter). Fried 7

Historical Contextualization

Endless Determination Can Change the World

Majority of historians agree that the tennis player, Arthur Ashe, conquered greater heights than thought possible and changed the forever. Arthur Ashe however was even more than an admirable tennis player; he used his fame to project his political views that he passionately believed should be heard, opened doors for , and dedicated himself to making the world a better place. Ashe’s books contain facts, emotions, thoughts, and personal accounts about his life as an African American during the American Civil Rights era.

To understand the other side of Arthur Ashe’s influence, it is necessary to listen to the perspective from someone who was close to his life, but still from the outside looking in, and was always there for him. A lawyer, a captain, an older brother, a role model, and a best friend was what Donald Dell was to Arthur Ashe, and from Dell I hope to gain a greater understanding than even this in depth research could provide for me.

After World War II several African Americans took leadership roles to help propel the

Civil Rights movement. The leaders of the Civil Rights movement, such as Martin Luther King

Jr, Malcolm X, and more had a variety of tactics and approaches to achieving black equality or power. For example Martin Luther King Jr. fought for peace and equality. He preached to his followers that his idea of a better world could be achieved without violence. Malcolm X had a more aggressive and harsh approach than King. Malcolm X fought for black power and condoned violence, if it was necessary for African Americans, to rise up and receive the power and respect he thought they deserved. These leaders all wanted improvement in society and for

“all men to be created equal”. Fried 8

Life for Arthur Ashe as well as many other African Americans, from the Civil Rights

Movement through the 1970’s and 1980’s was not easy. Segregation was everywhere in America and blacks and whites were separated from mostly everything. There was segregation in restaurants, in clothing stores, bathrooms, movie theaters, water fountains, and more.

Arthur Ashe’s involvement within the African American community was so influential at the time because Arthur Ashe could relate to what African Americans were going through. He understood the feelings and emotions that burdened African Americans everyday that arose as a result of living as a minority. In Ashe’s books he tries to gives his readers the best idea possible of life as an African American in America, although no one can fully understand that does not live the life. As talented an athlete and as passionate about tennis as Arthur Ashe was, he still doubted himself and his ability constantly about becoming a professional tennis player. He questioned whether or not he would be able to handle it all because of his skin color. Arthur

Ashe said that every black kid his age thought certain jobs were impossible to achieve and certain dreams would never come true. Ashe says in his book, Arthur Ashe Off the Court, “You grow up with this mentality. I wanted to establish myself in the tennis world, and I knew I’d have to pay a price for anything that I did well” (4). Not only was the pressure of doing well on

Ashe’s mind but the obstacles he would face for getting closer to his goal would be difficult rather than just rewarding. Still with the knowledge of the hardships ahead of him, Ashe wanted to accomplish his goal of becoming a professional tennis player and would work as hard as he could to do so.

Arthur Ashe grew up in the South and always had to be cautious for survival. His grandmother would teach him about whom to trust. She informed Ashe that some were genuine and wanted to help him (“good white people”). She also warned him about which Fried 9 white people to be careful around or watch out for (“bad white people”) especially the Ku Klux

Klan. A young boy like Ashe would have to walk around his own town cautious or paranoid for survival. Situations such as Ashe’s childhood experiences were examples of what motivated activists to create change.

Ashe observed people around him as a child and was conscientious. When Ashe was young he witnessed hardly and black men or women owning businesses. Ashe recalled his thoughts as a kid and said; “You knew there was something different about being black, and it even came down to gradations of skin color within the black community itself” (“Off the Court”

22). So much emphasis was put on race at the time that a lighter African American would be considered superior to a darker African American.

Living in a segregated world forced Ashe to be reminded of what whites thought of him everyday. Racist Americans would never look at African Americans and see them as equal human beings. African Americans were banned from entering many public places, and even if there were no signs that permitted African Americans from entering, they still felt as though they would not be welcome. Ashe states that “[he] was aware that [he] was a Negro, colored, black, a coon, a pickanniny, a nigger, an , a spade, and other less flattering terms” (“Off the Court”

37). He as well as many other members of the black community was harshly labeled those terms constantly because of his skin color and nothing more.

Arthur Ashe was born a leader. His views on civil rights, determined nature, and widespread popularity set Ashe up to be an influential political leader. Ashe states in his memoir

Days of Grace that he grew up knowing he had a responsibility to be a leader especially a leader to African Americans. During this time in American History, many people felt the same dedication and commitment to make a difference in America and deal with the racial issues. Fried 10

Strong, independent and passionate men and women, similar to Ashe, in some respects, dedicated their lives to changing America. An example of one of these people is Martin Luther

King Jr. Martin Luther King Jr. was a former priest who had the power to truly touch his audience with his words. King wanted peace and for issues to be solved without violence. His famous “I have a Dream” speech speaks of the hopes of one day blacks and whites holding hands together and truly being equal. But Militant blacks did not back Martin Luther King Jr.’s peaceful viewpoint up completely. They thought progress would be made faster if a more forceful approach to the problem was put into action. Another extremely influential Civil Rights leader was Malcolm X. Malcolm X was powerful and strong-willed, an example of someone who wanted to take a more aggressive attempt to making a change. He was very powerful and vigorous, but at the same time, very respected. Malcolm X was not peaceful like King. Malcolm

X wrote an autobiography about his pilgrimage to Mecca. He spoke about race, resulting from his learning from the Nation of Islam, that blacks are the superior people and whites as mutant devils produced by the mad scientist Yacub” (qtd. in “Days of Grace” 154).

Ashe wanted change just as Martin Luther King Jr., as Malcolm X did. Ashe, however, did not completely agree with King’s or X’s tactics. Ashe states, “it is as if King spoke only to whites, Malcolm only to blacks” (“Days of Grace” 155). Ashe respected King and Malcolm in many ways, but he was so passionate about his own views and hopes for the people of America as well. Ashe states in his memoir that he is the one African American to command the ground more superbly than any other, with his expressiveness as well as argument consistency. He writes about his admiration for Malcolm X’s courage and determination to educate himself as well as his respect and appreciation towards the Nation of Islam:

In this racial divide, I often find myself critical of both whites and blacks. In the end, I am not for black or white nor even for the Fried 11

United States of America, but for the whole of humanity. I can’t define myself as an African American, or an American. My humanity comes first. I have felt that way since I have known myself, and I hope to die that way. (“Days of Grace” 138)

Ashe was disturbed by Martin Luther King’s “human failings” and Malcolm X’s teachings of whites as devils. Leadership was so important to the African American community during this time of racial divide and hatred. Ashe recognized the emphasis of leadership and stated, “The problem of leadership continues to plague black America” (“Days of Grace” 153). Ashe was bothered by the fact that blacks at the time were so absorbed with “leaders” and “role models” and believed it showed their failure to organize themselves or gain any power as a whole.

The late 1960’s and early 1970’s was when “Black Power” became extremely popular.

“Black Power” was a slogan used by mostly youthful African Americans to promote a sense of pride and advancement in the black community. Ashe states that the attempts of change formulated by the leaders of Black Power groups were for the most part ineffective. They were ineffective as a result of who the leaders were. Leaders of Black Power groups were brave young men lacking important characteristics of a influential leader such as “vision, learning, experience, [and] the wisdom that age often brings” (“Days of Grace” 154).

Racism and discrimination was not only an issue in the . Ashe was aware of the extreme racial issues in and said they practice the worst kind of discrimination, he felt he could make a difference. Arthur Ashe had a great amount of faith in South Africa:

I would love to as United States ambassador to South Africa. I’m sure the position would never be offered to me, but if it were, I would accept immediately. It would be a helluva challenge because I still believe that South Africa can be one of the great countries in the world. Their potential is enormous. (“Off the Court” 144) Fried 12

In the year 1968, Ashe was told by , a top-ranked South African tennis player, that he had no chance of being able to play tennis in South Africa. Drysdale informed

Ashe that the government would not grant him a visa which is essential in order to play in the

South African Open. Still, even after Drysdale’s advice, Ashe applied for a visa in 1969. No surprise to Drysdale, Ashe’s application for a visa was denied.

Alf Chambers, the of the South African Lawn Tennis Union, stated that the reasoning for the denying acceptance to Arthur Ashe into the South African open was because he did not formally apply for a visa. (qtd. in Nesbitt 83). Ashe waited another year, and applied for a visa. Ashe was turned down again, without an explanation Ashe was stunned and confused.

Reporters said that Ashe was known to be involved with South Africa’s expulsion from the

Olympic Games in 1968, and that was the reasoning behind his denial to a visa. Ashe along with

Charles Diggs Jr., a U.S. congressman, thought there was more to the story. The denial of the visa became a world-wide issue. Diggs was quoted saying, “One cannot separate the question of the denial of a visa to an Arthur Ashe from the political questions that are generally involved and which have implications for the United States” at the hearing, “The foreign policy implications of Racial Exclusion in Granting Visas”, (qtd. In Nesbitt 84).

Ashe’s visa was finally approved in 1973, which lead to more complications. Ashe felt as though the people in the black community did not have a strong preference about Ashe’s decision to go or not go to play tennis as well as raise awareness in South Africa. Once his via was approved however, opinions changed. When the reality of Arthur Ashe going to South

Africa arrived members of the black community began to say that Ashe should not go to South

Africa. They wanted to know why he would travel to South Africa for when he could be helping the same cause in the United States. Ashe recounts the late sixties and early seventies as the Fried 13 height of the black Cultural Revolution. African Americans in the United States were embracing every aspect of their culture to the fullest and taking a sense of pride in them. Ashe still decided to go to South Africa. Ashe believed that the circumstances for in South Africa were harder than for the black people in the United States. Ashe was also personally hurt about the denial of the visa and was unfairly being denied a chance to compete in a that is in the international circuit. Ashe said, “I felt I should have the right to play in this tournament or the tournament shouldn’t have the right to be included in the ITF circuit” (“Off the Court” 147).

Ashe’s situation with the South African government became public and was an issue heard around the world. Ashe believes that the South African government wanted to make adjustments to the way they were viewed in the international community, as well as partake in the . When they finally granted Ashe a visa, he thought their decision was based on those reasons.

In South Africa Ashe set out to accomplish something greater than athletic excellence. He wanted to immerse himself in the country and take in the culture as much as possible. He also wanted to raise awareness about his opinions of discrimination in South Africa was well as have information about the country to bring home. Ashe wanted to share his experiences and knowledge learned about South Africa with the American people. American people have only heard about South Africa from what is written about the country in newspapers and magazines, typically by Caucasian authors. South Africa was behind other countries with their progress to equality. Everywhere Ashe went was categorized by race. Education was required for white children and optional for black children. School tuition was free for whites and not for blacks. Ashe compares the Afrikaners to American segregationists and believes that the Afrikaners’ effort to separate races far exceeded the efforts from the Americans for Fried 14 segregation. The Afrikaners’ views were formulated based on the thought that “God had decreed that the world runs better when group homogeneity is maintained” (qtd. in “Off the Court” 153).

Even after Ashe’s first trip to South Africa, he returned home a new man. He learned that he truly could raise awareness to members of the white community in South Africa as well as in the

United States.

Fifteen years after Ashe’s first trip to South Africa, he was diagnosed with HIV, as a result of the blood transfusions used during his heart surgeries. News about Arthur Ashe’s illness did not become public until , 1992, when Ashe made an announcement before USA today could publish the news in an article. Arthur Ashe was a hero to many by the way he carried himself after he the world knew he had AIDS. After Ashe told the public about his AIDS condition he was asked what the future had in store for him. He replied making it clear that he would continue to be an activist on the multiple issues he had been an activist for in the past. The only change that he would make with his dedication to being an activist for the causes he believed in is that he would work even harder committing himself to making a difference for those living with AIDS.

People Magazine was doing an interview on Arthur Ashe after his announcement about having AIDS and Ashe released what had been an even bigger burden for him than living with

AIDS. As the reporter was walking out the door she asked Ashe the question, “Mr. Ashe, I guess this must be the heaviest burden you have ever had to bear, isn’t it?”

He responded: I thought for a moment, but only a moment. ‘No it isn’t. It’s a burden all right. But AIDS isn’t the heaviest burden I have had to bear… You’re not going to believe this but being black is the greatest burden I’ve had to bear…No question about it. Race has always been my biggest burden. Having to live as a minority in America. Even now it continues to feel like an extra weight tied around me.’ (“Days of Grace” 126). Fried 15

Arthur Ashe passed away on February 6, 1993. Arthur Ashe was an example to many. He managed to be powerful, influential, admirable, self-confident, loving, inspiring, and much more while having to face obstacles that would seem impossible to overcome. Fried 16

Interview Transcription Interviewee/Narrator: Donald Dell Interviewer: Corey Fried Location: Dell’s Office, Bethesda, Maryland Date: December 22, 2008

CF: This is Corey Fried and I am interviewing Donald Dell as part of the American Century Oral

History Project. This interview took place on December 22nd, 2008 at Dell’s office in Bethesda

Maryland at twelve o’clock P.M.

CF: Where did you grow up?

DD: I grew up actually here, Bethesda. I was born in Savannah, Georgia, I lived there for three months and my father moved to Washington to become a lawyer in the navy department. And so literally I have been here since I was three months old.

CF: What was your childhood like?

DD: Well, I grew up actually in Bethesda on Egdemoore Lane, where we live now. But we were caddy corner to the Edgmoore tennis club, which is where I grew up really. Out of our backyard across the street was the club. It was about forty yards away. And it was a tennis and swim club so that’s where I grew up literally and spent all my time there. As I was much younger when I became eight, or nine, or ten, I started playing tennis and that’s where I played, everyday. And I would go there. In the summer I would go out at nine in the morning and I would play any body all day long (laughs) till about seven or eight o’clock at night. Maybe go for a swim in the afternoon or something but that’s really how I grew up right across the street from the tennis club. Fried 17

CF: Did you always dream of being a professional tennis player?

DD: No, well I think I did after about fourteen or fifteen. What motivated me originally was to be as good as I could be, good locally, you know what I mean, in the region, in the area. And so I tried very hard to be a good player in the boys, what they called fifteen and under. And I played a lot of tournaments in this area and that was always my main goal and then as I got better I played better and then I started thinking more nationally but when I was starting, seven, eight, nine years old I wasn’t worried about national stuff.

CF: That must have made it even better then, ‘cause you can take it just one step at a time.

DD: And then I grew into it yeah, as I did better it became more important. I went to a little catholic school here called “Our Lady of Lords” in Bethesda until the sixth grade and then I went to Landon.

CF: Oh, really?

DD: I started at Landon in seventh grade.

CF: Do you feel you’ve carried some of the characteristics you had as I child with you throughout your life?

DD: Yea, I think two or three in particular. ?Sort of? energy, and drive. I still work today full time, and I enjoy it because I like the people. I’ve been doing it now for a long long time, thirty- five, forty years. I don’t need to be working right now but I enjoy it because I like the people, so

I’m still doing it. I think energy and drive I sort of learned really young because, as I say if I Fried 18 were to go over there and play with older people they would coach me and help me, and I might play five, six hours a day in the summer in tennis. I just learned that the harder you work at something the better you become and at that time, it was sports and tennis.

CF: Can you tell me more, about what went through your mind as you stepped onto the court as a professional tennis player?

DD: Well, first of all, in theory I was never a professional. I was always an amateur. Because, in the game of tennis became professional in 1968. 1968 the sport went “open”. It was called “Open

Tennis”. “Open Tennis” just means that professionals and amateurs can play together, and until sixty-eight amateurs like me only played together all over the world. We were all amateurs; we were paid expenses, no prize money. It was nothing what you see today. And I retired to work in a law firm in 1966, before open tennis came. It started in sixty- eight. I had retired two or three years earlier.

CF: Oh, wow.

DD: But when I played, just so you understand, I played Davis Cup for America five times, and so I played all over the world. I mean, I played a world circuit, and I would have been a professional today, but in those days I was an amateur. ‘Cause we were just allowed to play for expenses, and our travel, and meals, and things like that. But it all has changed a lot now.

CF: It is said that you’ve changed tennis into more than a sport. What lead you to create the sports marketing business? Fried 19

DD: Well, you asked two questions there. It was very interesting to me when I stopped playing. I went back and for two years practiced law at a law firm here called Hogan and Hartson, it’s a well known firm here. And I was there for two years and then in 1967, early sixty-seven, I went to work for Sargent Shriver across the street. He was the head of the Peace Corps and the thing called O.E.O, the Office of Economic Opportunity, appointed by Lyndon Johnson. And he was like the poverty czar that was his big deal. When I went over there to work for him as his assistant, special assistant for the President, he was just cutting down on the peace corps, he founded the peace corps with president Kennedy and he ran that for three or four years. And then he was moving, Kennedy was assassinated and Johnson started to think “oh yeah the Office of

Economic Opportunity was just to fight poverty throughout America” and he moved Shriver over there as the poverty czar. He had been there about six months when I came and so I worked for him for about eighteen months as his assistant. And the only reason I bring that up is that it was a phenomenal experience. I traveled with him everywhere in the world; my job was really to handle his schedule, his speeches, and his meetings. So, wherever he went, I would carry his briefcase and people would say to me, “What do you really do?” I said “Well I carry his briefcase.”

CF: (laughs)

DD: But it was hell of an interesting briefcase (laughs). And he made a deal with me when I came over that I could go to any meeting with him. So when the president asked him to a meeting, I would go with him. Unless the president wanted to meet with him alone, if somebody wanted to meet with him alone then I would be outside but I went everywhere with him.

CF: Wow. Fried 20

DD: I wasn’t married and he was traveling everyday, I was traveling with him just as his assistant to make sure everything went well. I would say that in eighteen months I learned more about people, business, politics, in eighteen months, than I have since, truthfully. It was quite an experience. And then, I came back in sixty-eight, I was working for him when they appointed me and asked if I would accept the Davis Cup job, as the captain of the Davis Cup team. I was the youngest captain selected, I was twenty-nine years old and I didn’t really wanna do it. I loved working for Shriver, that was my dream job and he convinced me and said “No, no.” The Davis

Cup forty years ago was really much bigger than it is today it was much more important in the sport of tennis ‘cause tennis was amateur in those days. The Davis Cup was amateur. He said to me, “You gotta take the job Donald, you know, nothing to talk about, take it because while you were a good tennis player, not a great one, but a good one.” And that’s true. “And you were ranked high but never won Wimbledon or the U.S. Open.” Which is also true. “If you take the

Davis Cup Job you will always be known as the Davis Cup captain. Which is, considerably, more important.” So he talked me into it and I took the job. And for the next two years sixty- eight, sixty-nine, again I wasn’t married, and I traveled with the team everywhere and I made it a real mission. We hadn’t won the Davis Cup in six or eight years and I made it a real important thing. The first year in sixty-eight, six matches all over the world , , , we won all the matches and we defend and we won the Davis Cup undefeated 1968. Under the

Davis Cup format, which is changed now, the defending champion waited, for the next year and they played just the challenge round, it was called. So everybody else in the world played, and then the winner of that played the previous winner in the challenge round. That was my Davis

Cup team up there [points to picture of his Davis Cup team on his office shelf] that was Stan Fried 21

Smith, Bobby Lutz on the right, Stan Smith on the left, Arthur Ashe next to me. And that team never lost. We won for two years in a row and then I retired. So I am the only captain in tennis that never lost, because I got out. (Both laugh).

DD: Which was, they say a method to my madness.

CF: That’s really interesting. I didn’t know that much about your job with Sargent Shriver.

DD: And so really it was a fortuitous thing when I got out just to get into sports marketing, second part of your question. We did the Davis Cup team in sixty-eight and sixty-nine. I resigned in December of 1969 as Davis Cup captain to go back and practice law, and I was going to go back to Hogan and Hartson, which is the firm I had left before I worked for Shriver. And I took

Arthur, who was my number one player, the game was going pro, everyone was playing for money now. And it’s a true story, I took Arthur to Mark McCormack, who was very well known, he was the head of IMG, which is our biggest competitor now in this business. International

Management Group, it was called IMG, and your dad knows him very well. McCormack had just signed [Arnold] Palmer, [Gary] Player, and [Jack] Nicklaus in golf and Jean-Claude Killy in the

Olympics. And so he was managing athletes and he was doing sports marketing for all sports, but he had never been much in tennis. So I took Arthur to meet him and I took him three times. And after the third time, we had breakfast with McCormack in New York we were driving on the east side, driving a cab, I never will forget it. And in the cab Arthur said to me, you know out of the blue, “How many more times are you gonna do this?”

I said “Do what?”

He said, “You keep taking me to McCormack and I don’t feel very comfortable with him, I don’t relate well to him. He is a little too aloof for me or something I don’t know.” Fried 22

And now I said, “Well I mean I think he’s the best guy and you oughta do it.”

And he said, “Well why don’t you do it?”

And I said, “Do what?”

And he said, “Why don’t you manage me?”

And I said, “No, no I’m going back to Washington, Hogan and Hartson, I’m gonna be the next

Clarence Darrow...

CF: (Laughs)

DD: in the law courts (laughs).” I said I had no interest in that.”

And he said, “Well you know if you would do it, Stan Smith would join us.”

‘Cause they were all turning pro. He said, “So Smith would join us, and so would Bobby Lutz, and we could have a business, it might be fun.” So I thought about it and I really wasn’t going to do it and I took it to my senior partner at Hogan and Hartson and I said to him, “what do you think of the idea?” and he said, “ It’s fantastic, you should do it. The game is exploding, it is just starting to become professional, you know all the players you know all the people.” And so actually, that really is what motivated me, Stan and Arthur, and they were my first two clients.

So, as a result of that, I did decide to do it. And in February of 1970 I started my own Law

Office; I decided to do it not at Hogan and Hartson but for myself, alone and it was called the

Law Offices of Donald Dell. And it was one person, me.

CF: (Both laugh)

DD: But three great clients, and that’s how I started, you know, you just get lucky, and you take advantage of the timing and the luck.

CF: So, when did you meet Arthur Ashe? Fried 23

DD: I met Arthur first in about 1964-65 he was younger, and playing the tours as a young kid.

And I was in law school at the time and I was about to get off the tour. I was going to law school and I was also playing tennis in the summers. I went to Yale as an undergraduate and then I played tennis around the world for one year, then I came back and went to law school, graduated from law school, played tennis again for one year. Now remember there was no money, so I couldn’t make a living at playing tennis. In the second year, I finished law school, I played for one year, then I went back and started to practice law in Washington. Because the big thing… and this is what I worked so hard to change in the 70’s, and it relates a little bit to your question, people would say to me always, you know, “what do you do besides play tennis”? If you said,

“well I do nothing, you know I just travel and play tennis.” You were sort of thought of as a tennis bum. There was a name for it, a tennis bum. And that always bothered me, enormously.

So, in the 70’s when I started managing athletes professionally, I was the first lawyer, or agent, or representative of a tennis player anywhere in the world. I was the first one to do it in timing, in

1970; no one had ever done it. The game had just gone open in sixty-eight, September so it was brand new. And when I did it, my goal, my dream was to professionalize the sport of tennis, that’s really what I wanted most. And what do you mean by that? And what I meant by that was,

I had a younger brother, Dick Dell, who was ten years behind me. He was a very good player, very good player. He beat Laver once, you know , over in Hong Kong, in the grass. I mean he was a nationally ranked player. So my goal was, for people like him, one day you could say to them, “what do you do?” and he’d say, “I’m a tennis pro.” Or, “I make a living out tennis.” And in the 70’s that’s what we created. I mean today, we have fifty clients. And I’ll show you some over on the wall there, (points to a picture featuring some of the clients he was talking about). Fifty clients, that are tennis players, who make a full time living out of playing Fried 24 tennis, just the way a golfer does in golf. I copied the idea of the golf tour, where a tennis player is an independent contractor, he’s not under contract, anybody plays for himself, but he plays the world tour, and the world tour gives prize money. In the tennis tour now, in prize money, we have probably a ?hundred? … My goal, Corey, was to really try and get tennis, in the 70’s, to become more professional, more prize money, a world wide circuit, and it really was to copy the

PGA of golf. Golf had about a ten or twelve year head start on tennis. In the 60’s golf was being pro with prize money for players. And so that’s what I really copied was to try and get the tour professional and prize money for players, that was my whole thing.

CF: And you were very successful.

DD: It was successful. It was very successful. And then in 1972, and Bob Reiner, and myself found a thing called the ATP, which is the pro players union, the Association of

Tennis Professionals. We actually found it in 1972... And that became like the NFL players association or the PGA players association, and they are the professional players today in the sport.

CF: Can you describe your first meeting Arthur Ashe? And your first impression of him?

DD: The first time I met Arthur was on the tour, he was playing, he was a young kid and I probably met him in ’65. And he was shy and quiet. I then played him in a tournament…

CF: Oh, really?

DD: In Fort Worth, . He was probably about eighteen and this was in 1966. And it was one of the last few tournaments I played before coming back to practice law. And he beat me I think straight set six-four six-four and what I remember most about him was he had a lightening fast serve, a tremendous serve. And we played on cement at the Fort Worth country club and the courts were like lightening and he was just serving bullets. And he broke my serve once each set Fried 25 and won the match, pretty quickly, probably an hour, hour and a half. And that’s the first time I really competed against Arthur. And so I knew him, not well. Two years later, when I took the

Davis Cup team, I didn’t know Arthur that well. Obviously I had played against him and the guy

I really knew best was his roommate in college, was a fella named . Charlie

Pasarell and Arthur were roommates at UCLA. I was just closer to Charlie. Charlie was really the one who talked me into playing and taking the Davis Cup captain seat. Charlie Pasarell in

1967 was ranked one in America, he was the number one player, he was better on than

Arthur or Stan. And he was the one that talked my into it by saying, “You ought to do it Donald, you’ve got a great team, these are great guys,” and so he had a big hand in that. And then, when we started in ’68 he made the squad, Charlie, but he didn’t make the team. You know you only can play four players on the final team. We had a squad of six or seven, which he was on but he didn’t make the final team, which was very disappointing for him and disappointing to me because he was such a close friend. And he was Arthur’s closest friend growing up because they roomed together for four years at UCLA.

CF: Were you ever criticized or questioned for working with an African-America athlete at the time?

DD: Yea, I think I was, mainly by other African Americans.

CF: Oh, really?

DD: Yea, it was sort of interesting. There were many times in the first few years, in let’s say ’71,

I had a contract with Arthur for one year in 1971. It was a three page letter agreement with

Arthur and with Stan, it was the same one for each of them. It basically said I would manage them exclusively for a year and then they paid me a fee for what I generated or what they signed in the contract. The contracts were both expired at the end of December ’71, they were one year Fried 26 contracts. And we never renewed them again in writing but with both Stan and Arthur we used to have a handshake ‘cause they were really close. They’re the godparents of both my twin girls,

Stan with Christine and Arthur with Alexandra. These were not casual athletes or acquaintances, they became life long friends. Stan Smith, who is sixty-two or sixty-three years old, is still a client today, thirty-six years later, but we don’t have a contract. He calls me and asks me if he wants me to do something. I’m his lawyer and I manage his affairs but he would never use anybody else without calling me or asking me. It’s a different kind of relationship. You could never do that today. I managed Michael for ten years and we had contracts, I had twelve people in my office working on Jordan stuff. So it’s a different arrangement, and the game has now changed dramatically from how it was twenty-four years ago. But, to get back to your question, starting in ’72, ’73, ’74, the “Black Power” thing was a big deal and because I had a handshake with Arthur, often times I would be in a meeting and I would be the only white person with Arthur and there would be three or four other business types. And most of them, not always, but a lot of times they were black. And they would say, at various times, “Why do you have a white lawyer?” They resented the fact that Arthur had a white lawyer, not in many cases, but in some cases. And whenever that occurred I would say, in front of them, and in front of Arthur,

“Well look, I’m just his lawyer. We don’t have a contract. He doesn’t play tennis for me. I can’t tell him where to play; I can’t tell him what tournaments or what exhibitions, I don’t tell him what to do. I work for him and he can fire me tomorrow because we don’t have a contract.” And the fact that we had a verbal arrangement and not a contract with the African American people that we were dealing with was a huge huge deal. I didn’t know it at the time, that’s not why we did it. We did it ‘cause we were friends and we just had a handshake. I mean if I call up Stan Fried 27

Smith today and said, “Stan, let me send you a letter, we’ll have an agreement of me representing you,” he’d think “Well, what the hell is wrong with you? Is he sick or what?”

CF: (laughs)

DD: Because we’ve been together for thirty-eight years now. So, you wouldn’t do that. But I remember, and I used to always kid Arthur, we’d leave the meeting and Arthur was very much like Obama today.

CF: Really?

DD: He was light skinned, he was very intelligent, he had a photographic memory, his IQ was twice mine, he was a speed reader, he majored in business at UCLA, he was very smart, and he loved to read, he read everything ‘cause he was very quick. And he always wanted to go into politics. And had he lived, he would have definitely gone into politics. Never in Virginia, he didn’t like Richmond, he grew up in Virginia, he didn’t want to be in Richmond and he moved to

New York early. That was his residency for the last twenty years of his life, that’s were he would have run. But he reminds me a lot of Obama ?because? Arthur was a little more quiet, more introspective. Obama’s more outgoing, more personality. Arthur wasn’t shy, but he was reserved.

CF: Yea.

DD: And he was reticent rather than flamboyant. Arthur would greet everybody with “What’s happening?” You and I would say “Hello, how are ya?” He’d say, “What’s happening?” To somebody in he’d say, “Que pasa?”

CF: (laughs).

DD: I mean he would just do that all the time. I don’t care who you are, he’d say “Hey, what’s happening?” That’s the way he greeted you, if he knew you. Fried 28

CF: What was it like to watch Ashe succeed?

DD: Well, it was thrilling. It was really really fun. Well he was ranked number one in the world in 1975. What I used to say was, “Arthur is a very good player, he was a great person.” And that was always more important to me. I’ll just show you one thing, you asked about Arthur, this is a picture somebody sent me (showing me a picture of Arthur after he had won Wimbledon) which

I’m going to explain to you just because it answers your question exactly. This was the finals of

Wimbledon; he’s playing , at Wimbledon. Connors is favored in this match sixteen to one odds… and he had beaten Arthur before. Arthur wins the first two sets. It’s on grass, finals of Wimbledon 1975. Six-one six-one, Connors wins the third set seven-five. We’re now into the fourth set, it’s best of five, three out of five. Ashe is serving at five-four, two sets to one, forty-fifteen, match . Connors is left handed, he’s serving in the deuce court, Arthur sliced the ball wide, Connors runs out to hit a left-handed, pops it up, Arthur is at the net, he turns, and he knocks the ball off. And Connors is now running to the net to shake hands,

Arthur has just won the match. Kay?

CF: Mmhm.

DD: Now Carol and I are sitting right here, (points to the picture to give an idea of where they were seated at the match) my wife and I are sitting right here in the front. And he turns and goes like this to us (describing Arthur’s fist pump in the picture). NBC reported that that was the black power salute. It had nothing to do with the black power salute. It was a personal thing to me and to my wife. So, don’t believe all that you hear. You asked what it was like watching him play, well I watched most of his matches. I watched all of his big matches. Because in those days I traveled a lot more on the tournament, when I was running Pro Serv I had three-hundred employees and twelve offices. And it was a different deal then when I started in the seventies, Fried 29 when it was just one or two people and I could spend more time, which I couldn’t do later. But it was special.

CF: Did that make you angry…

DD: That I couldn’t spend more time with him?

CF: No, that they made it seem like that was a black power sign.

DD: No, I just said that’s silly. The press asked me, “was that a black power sign?” and I said,

“No, it had nothing to do with that, he was waving to me…”

CF: Yeah.

DD: and to my wife, that’s all. Period.” These are my two daughters actually (pointing to a picture of his twin daughters on his desk). These are twins. This was when they were very young, they’re identical.

CF: Yeah, they look exactly alike.

DD: They don’t look alike, as much today, they still look similar… Go ahead.

CF: Ashe speaks of you with high praise many times in his books, is that exciting for you to read?

DD: Well it was at the time. I don’t read them now but I had read them then. Now Arthur, you have to understand… he and Stan were my first clients together. And they were very different personalities, number one. And number two, Arthur, for lots of different reasons developed into really my best friend. I mean, he was far far more than a client. And it was a really special friendship. It’s the same today with Stan, but they’re different kinds. Arthur was curious, wanted to know everything, wanted to study and read everything, got involved in causes. Stan on the other hand, wanted to be the best player that was Stan Smith. He said, “I don’t want to do a lot of different contracts, I want to do rackets, shoes, clothes, and that’s it.” And he did the Fried 30 contract with shoes, which is the largest one in the . It’s like and

Nike shoes. ?They had? A Stan Smith green tab on the back of his shoe, they sold about twenty- two million pairs last year. He started with them in 1972, but its thirty-six years later and it’s still selling. But anyway, Arthur was much more curious, and more involved in politics, and he was very open-minded about things. I arranged for him to go to South Africa. Three years in a row he was turned down, and they wouldn’t give him the visa.

CF: Yea.

DD: Because somewhere along the way, before that he said, “I want to drop a hydrogen bomb on

Johannesburg.” That was a direct quote. “I want to drop a hydrogen bomb on Johannesburg because of .” And so they wouldn’t give him a visa. And so the relationship between me and Arthur was about as close as you could get, sort of like a younger brother. I flew to South

Africa ahead of time, I negotiated with the prime minister, minister of ?interior? down there ?

Fabut? was his name, to get Arthur a visa. They said, “We’ll give Arthur a visa on one condition.” I said, “What’s the condition?” The condition was that Arthur would not talk about politics and the segregated races while he was in South Africa. He could go anywhere. He went to Robin’s Island, saw Mandela. He could go anywhere, he could do anything, but when he held press conferences, he was to talk about tennis and about sports. He was not to talk about politics.

So I went back to Arthur and said, “Arthur, that’s a pretty clear cut thing do you want to do that?” and he said, “Absolutely. Cause I want to see South Africa.” Then when he came back, to

America, he blasted ‘em.

CF: Yea.

DD: He wrote articles and he did a lot of things. But while he was there, and a lot of the blacks resented it, that he was there and they thought he was an Uncle Tom for the government. And Fried 31 that wasn’t the deal the deal was he went in there and they gave him a visa he couldn’t criticize the government for politics until he got out of the country. But the trade off was he got a visa and could go anywhere he wanted. We went to Soateo, we went to Robin’s Island, we went to Cape

Town, we went everywhere. And that was the deal, and he wanted to do it. And I said “It’s up to you but it’s a pretty strong restriction, you’re going to get criticized for it.

CF: Yea, that was really interesting to read about his trip to South Africa, and he said that you were even more shocked when he got denied the second time for a visa than he was. Do you remember being told that he was denied? And do you remember how you felt?

DD: Well he was denied three times. He was denied for three years, he couldn’t get in. That’s why I went down there to negotiate ahead of time. I called and said, “Look, if I come down there can we work this out?” The minister of interior said, “Well I think we can but we’re going to have restrictions on what he says.” So I got him the visa and then he went back the second time with Andy Young from Atlanta. Andy Young was the ambassador to the UN for and he was a well known famous black who was standing next to Martin Luther King when he was killed in Memphis. Andy Young was very well known in politics. He was black, and he was the mayor of Atlanta. And he was one of King’s great lieutenants when he was very young, and he’s about seventy-five now. Andy Young was a great friend of Arthur’s. He married Arthur personally. He was a minister.

CF: Oh, wow.

DD: He married Arthur. And he gave his funeral for Arthur. He did both.

CF: Can you tell me what South Africa was like? Can you describe it to me when you went there? Fried 32

DD: South Africa was phenomenal because it was so restrictive and the races were so separate, the apartheid. One thing that Ashe did that was not, well documented, he made a deal that if he played at Ellis Park, which was just a big stadium, they would have to integrate the crowd, and they agreed, the government agreed. Because for many many years the blacks bought tickets and sat in one place and the whites sat in another place. He said, “I don’t have to play, but I’m not playing before a segregated audience.” And they really wanted him to play tennis. That was a big deal. They wanted to see him play. And when he went down there, the government agreed that a black person could sit any where and the stadium was integrated. The problem was the blacks who for twenty-five years have been sitting in one place, when they bought a ticket they went generally to where they normally sat. They didn’t know to walk around and move around. So we would announce it at different times, “Seating is open to all.” But they didn’t believe it. You’d have to be there to see it, they didn’t believe it. They didn’t believe it was really open. So there were a lot of things, we went into Soweto there was tremendous poverty there were hundreds of thousands of people living in Soweto, and it was very poor conditions. I think the biggest shock to me, Arthur might agree, was I never dreamed that South Africa, could be free and liberated without a blood bath I thought there would be a huge fight. And to the credit of the leaders down there both black and white, principally white, who initiated, where they gave a transfer over time to the blacks. And then Mandela came out early and just by happen stance Mandela was an absolute heroic figure. He was a god and still is. I met Mandela with Arthur in New York when he came here the first time. And it was like talking to Winston Churchill or something. He was just a phenomenal guy. He had charisma and leadership. I taught Bobby Kennedy how to play tennis and so I traveled with Bobby in ’68 on the campaign. So I knew what these people were like. I mean it was phenomenal being around Mandela was phenomenal, powerful. And he was Fried 33 the first prime minister of an integrated South Africa. So to me it was amazing that they could integrate society without a revolution or a blood bath. I thought it would be a war, I really did. I never dreamed it could happen without a war.

CF: Is there anything about Arthur Ashe that you feel most people don’t know?

DD: I think there are a few things about Arthur. Number one, people don’t realize sometimes, how brilliantly intelligent he was. I don’t think they understood how strongly he felt towards helping others. His last few years, when he got AIDS, he got AIDS from a , second open heart surgery. He got AIDS really out of a sense of loyalty. Dr. Hutchison his first doctor was a black doctor from UCLA, who was his fraternity brother, at UCLA. He did the first open heart surgery on Arthur. And then Arthur had four bypasses. And on the same day they all occluded. Occluded means they caved in. So he had a problem, he couldn’t breathe very well.

They waited a few months and said, “You’ll have to come back and have another one.” And the second one I wanted him to go to Cleveland clinic, I had arranged for him to go there. And he said, “No, no I’ve got to go back to John. He has a hospital team, and a heart team. And it would hurt him career wise if I suddenly changed doctors.” And I said, “Well I don’t want to go back to him. I want to go to the Cleveland clinic where they’re the best in the world.” And we had a huge argument; he chose to go back to Dr. Hutchinson. The only problem with that was, and in 1983

Hutchinson had a hospital where you have a team for open heart surgery. You have four or five doctors, they work as a unit, and he was very good. But, on the outskirts two blocks from

Harlem, and the hospital was buying blood from people in the community. Because when you have open heart surgery you have tremendous transfusion, you might have three transfusions.

And he got AIDS from the transfusion because they didn’t protect the blood. They didn’t protect the blood because no one knew what AIDS was in 1983. It was a brand new thing. So Arthur Fried 34

Ashe, for me, knowing the real facts, died primarily out of a sense of loyalty to Dr. Hutchinson. I mean if he had gone to Cleveland Clinic it probably would have never happened because they weren’t buying blood. Today, if you have open heart surgery now you bring your own blood to the surgery, because of AIDS. They didn’t do that in 1983 when he got it. So anyway, to finish your question, Arthur used to call himself a “Citizen of the World”, he loved people, he loved humanity. And he had a broad view of everything. People would say “are you a member of the

American race? Are you a member of the African race?” and Arthur would say, “No I’m a member of the human race.” And that was his platform. He thought about all humanity. He used to call himself a citizen of the world, that was a big deal to him, and that’s what he did. And I found this the other day, which I’m going to give to you, and you can send back to me later, but this is a great quote about Arthur Ashe and it says it all you can read it. That’s his quote when asked about AIDS.

CF: Yea, I remember reading this.

DD: That’s a true quote.

CF: That’s so interesting. And I feel like for some people it would be hard to say that, but for him it’s just true.

DD: You can take this if you want.

CF: Can I?

DD: Yea, just mail it back to me sometime. I just think it’s a beautiful quote that you might want to use in your story.

CF: Definitely. In his memoir he describes his political differences with Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X and he shared he shared his political views with you? Fried 35

DD: We talked a lot about politics, sure, a ton. As I say he was violently opposed to the apartheid in South Africa. He went to South Africa two or three times after stopping tennis. He was arrested one time in the , in Washington, in March trying to get rid of the apartheid in South Africa. And he had AIDS at the time. He had AIDS and for three years we didn’t tell anybody he had AIDS we kept it quiet. The reason we did was because you have to go back to that time in the early ‘80’s, AIDS was thought of, you either were gay, or you got it from a needle from heroine. You either were a drug addict or you were gay that’s the only way you got AIDS. That couldn’t be further from the truth, but that’s what everyone thought.

CF: Right.

DD: At the first five years of discovering AIDS. Now, a lot has changed. Arthur never knew he had AIDS. So when he found it, he had the fourth stage, full blown AIDS. There is the thing called HIV positive, which is like the third stage. Magic Johnson, has HIV positive. But he’s had it for fifteen years. He hasn’t moved to the fourth stage which is AIDS, which kills you. And the reason he hasn’t, among other reasons, is that they have pills now that can slow it down. The medicine is so strong that if you can afford it, and Arthur certainly would have, he would still probably be alive today, if he had the medicine that we have today. And we knew that he had

AIDS. We had no idea he had gotten AIDS in 1983 from a blood transfusion. So when we finally discovered he had AIDS four or five years later, it was full blown AIDS, not just HIV positive.

You have to understand the difference, it’s a death sentence if you’re in the fourth stage.

CF: Yea I was going to ask you if you had known about his diagnosis before everyone else.

DD: He didn’t. It’s unbelievable. When they first told him, if you can believe this, he fainted a couple times. And we thought he had a brain tumor. So we rushed into the hospital and they Fried 36 actually opened up his skull they stapled it back together it was the damndest thing u ever saw in my life.

CF: Oh, god.

DD: When they opened him up, he didn’t have a brain tumor. But the fluid in his brain came out, and they diagnosed it, and that’s when they found out he had AIDS. The doctor walked into the room, New York hospital and said, “Arthur, you don’t have a brain tumor.” And everyone said,

“Great! Great! Great!” but then the doctor said, “I want to talk to Jeanne Ashe, Arthur’s wife, and Donald alone.” So they got everybody out of the room. And he explained that he had AIDS.

Nobody believed it. How can he have AIDS? He’s not a gay, and he’s not a drug addict. It’s impossible. Then the doctor said, “Well regardless, that’s what he has.” And that’s when we first found out. And you know, he was in great shape. Good physical. He died about three or four years later. Today he would still be alive if we had the medicine to that we didn’t have when we found out that he had AIDS.

CF: Do you remember Ashe having to make his announcement public about him having AIDS?

DD: I was there. At the press conference, yea I spent the night at his apartment. We wrote to

Frank Deford who wrote his first book called A Portrait in Motion.

CF: Oh yea, I read that.

DD: Deford, wrote the press statement for Arthur and Arthur and I edited it that night. And the next morning at HBO he had the press conference and I was standing there with him.

CF: Wow, what was going through Ashe’s mind?

DD: Well, he just announced that, one, he had had AIDS for three or four years. That because of his daughter, who was then about six years old he didn’t want to announce he had AIDS because then everybody in the school would tease his daughter and make it difficult and he just didn’t Fried 37 want to publicize, he thought it was private. Although he was a public figure, he didn’t think it was for the public to know what he had and so he didn’t tell anybody. That’s all true. And then, when he made the announcement, because he got thinner and thinner, and a guy who went to high school with him and who was writing for USA today suspected that he had AIDS, so he confronted Arthur. He said, “Do you have AIDS?” and Arthur denied it at first, and then eventually told him thinking, this guy was a friend who he had grown up with in Richmond. And then the editor of the guy’s newspaper which was USA Today said. “We’re going to run the story.” So we asked them that they would hold the story for a day. And we had a press conference that morning and they did, and then we announced it. ‘Cause we wanted to announce it, not have USA Today announce it. And then the terrible problem was, it was very interesting, because in those days 90% of people died of AIDS, it was only a matter of when. They all die.

You can as I say, slow it down. You can live five, ten, fifteen years if you take the medicine right. Depending on how severe it is when you find out. It’s like anything, when do you get cancer? If you find out cancer early most case you can delay it or beat it. If you find it out late, you die. AIDS has become a lot like cancer in that regard. So, once he announced it, what was interesting to me, was the people. We always thought, he wouldn’t have a life after that, and he didn’t. Everybody in the world would come up to him and say, “Can you do this benefit? Can you raise money?” all the AIDS people. And if somebody saw you and came up to you and said

“Can you come to such and such and help us with AIDS?” This wasn’t like you could say, “Yea can’t do it this year, but I’ll come next year.” ‘Cause people were dying. Today, it is a big death rate still in America. We probably lose a couple hundred thousand people a year to AIDS. They don’t advertise it very much. What I’m saying is that his life changed after that announcement.

Everybody wanted a piece of his time to help him fight AIDS and to raise money. He was getting Fried 38 calls from everywhere. For example, when you die of AIDS your immune system is knocked down. And he got a cold he got the flu. He got a cold going out to buy a newspaper one morning.

He got chilled, and he had all the pills, well the latest ones, but they aren’t like they are now but they were trying to fight it. He came out and he got a cold, he got the flu. And yet, the night before he died he was supposed to go to Connecticut, up to Hartford to give a speech in front of a couple hundred people about AIDS. And he was sick, he couldn’t get out of bed so he did a speech, he did a tape on the couch in his living room, the next day he died. And the point I’m trying to make is, when people in AIDS come to you for help, it’s very hard to put them off, because they might due shortly. This was fifteen years ago, you can’t say “I can’t do it today but call me in three months. Or call me next year, I’ll be available next year.” Cause these people are going to be dead, in many cases.

CF: In an interview with People Magazine he was asked whether or not having AIDS was the biggest burden he has had to bear.

DD: And he answered right there. That’s the answer on that card. That’s why I gave it to you.

CF: Actually, what I was going to say, funny that you brought it up because out of all the quotes, in all of his books, that was the one that impacted me the most.

DD: It’s a remarkable quote. [Interrupted by phone call] Arthur gave a speech, Corey, at the

United Nations. In December of 1992 and he’s talking to the whole UN assembly. “We want to make sure we do everything we possibly can do to fight AIDS.” It’s a very powerful quote. He died six weeks later, after giving that speech. So you have to remember that. I’m going to run out of time here in a minute, so keep going.

CF: (both laugh). Just a few more things.

DD: Sure. Fried 39

CF: Ashe said that being black was an even bigger burden than having AIDS.

DD: It was interesting, that you brought up that point. He once said in People Magazine “The greatest burden I’ve had is not AIDS but being born black in America.” And I was in when that that went all over the papers. And I picked up the phone at about two o’clock in the morning and called Arthur. And I said, “Arthur did you make that quote? Is that quote accurate?” and he said, “It’s absolutely accurate.” And I said, “Well I’ve known you for thirty years and you’ve never said being black in America is your greatest burden.” [Interrupted by someone in the room] and I said, “Well wait a minute, what are you talking about? You are more white than most people. You’ve gotten all the benefits of being in a white society. You play a white sport.

Do you really mean that?”

And he said, “Absolutely. Being black in America is worse than AIDS as a bigger burden.” And

I said, “Okay, well when I fly back I want to go over that with you because I don’t understand.”

So I went back and we talked for maybe an hour about it. And what he said was, “Donald, you don’t understand that I have to adjust my way of acting in one way or another everyday of my life to fit in with white society.” And what he meant was, he would say, “If I go to a party, and we are all having drinks and it’s a social thing…” I remember this was in 1992 this was sixteen years ago he just said, “you don’t understand being black is different in this country and it’s a stigma and you have to adjust your way of life, or the way you act, or your conduct, your always adjusting to meet the white man standard.” That’s what he was meaning.

CF: Sounds so frustrating.

DD: Yea. Anyway that’s what he said. (hands me a quote from Arthur) Now this is the other one, this is a great quote, I’ll just read it to you. “We want to be able to look back and say that we Fried 40 did all that could when we had to do it and with all the available resources.” This was in his speech about fighting AIDS globally. And then he died six weeks after that speech.

CF: Okay, last thing.

DD: Yea?

CF: Is there anything that I failed to ask you or that you think is important for me to know.

DD: I think people have to understand that Arthur’s great strength was besides being bright and smart he was really disciplined. I mean if he had to write a story tomorrow he would have a list of things he had to do. He would keep a list. (both laugh). This is my list for today (points to his to do list on his desk). And he did it. The rest of us talk about it. He did it. And he was tremendously disciplined. And dedicated, and he was determined in his own quiet way. And as a tennis player he would say “I do it with my racket, not my mouth.” He wasn’t a big talker; he wasn’t a big flamboyant athlete who would give people the finger or yell and scream. That wasn’t Arthur, he would never do that. He would believe in not losing control of you emotions.

That was very important. To me, they sort of lionized Arthur now since he’s died but you have to remember what really created him. He was from Richmond Virgina, he was black, he wasn’t allowed to play in the park where he grew up, he wasn’t allowed to play on the courts. His father was the care taker he became a part-time policeman. The father was very disciplined. The mother died in the hospital. She went in for a normal hospital little deal, a black hospital in Richmond.

And she never came out, she died in the hospital. And it wasn’t a serious emergency operation.

So he never liked Richmond for that .he didn’t want to go back and live in Richmond he thought that Richmond in its own way discriminated against him, but against all blacks. So he was a product, a very strong product of what it meant to be black in America. People forget that when they talk about Arthur Ashe. I mean think about it for a moment. This is a better example. Fried 41

Obama is the president of the United States but you can be sure that when he grew up, black in

Honolulu in a mixed marriage he experienced things that you and I never experienced, partly because he was part black. And those are embedded in him, he had to adjust to that. So when he’s president he is going to do everything he can to ameliorate or better those kinds of problems. Whatever those problems were. And that’s why I think Ashe would have run for the

United States senate in New York because he could have changed things to make the world a better place. That sounds corny, but that’s really the way he was.

CF: But it’s true. The only way that it will work…

DD: That’s honestly the way he was. He wanted to change things to make them better and we would have succeeded had he lived because he was so natural, so smart, so bright. The point I wanted to stress was that he was really disciplined and dedicated and yet… Let me put it in a different perspective… I can do this. (Cries). This has nothing to do with you I just can’t talk about him sometimes. But he died…I vowed that I would be a better person because of him. And you try sometimes to do that and you’re not successful. That’s how impactful he was. I can’t even talk about it… I’m sorry.

CF: No, seriously don’t worry about it.

DD: I’m really sorry. This guy was a giant in my life, so important to me. So important to this country and we lost him so early… anyway. You know you try to live up to certain things because of him. And he lived them, I didn’t. I just tried… I’m sorry. Anything else? I’ve got to go.

CF: No, thank you so much. I appreciate this so much, I learned a lot.

DD: Well, it was fun. I love Arthur and I like Fred and Bridgit a great deal. Fried 42

Time Indexing Recording Log

1. Interviewer: Corey Fried

2. Interviewee: Donald Dell

3. Date of Interview: December 22, 2008

4. Location of Interview: Dell’s Office in Bethesda, Maryland

5. Recording format: Audio Type: Cassette.

Minute Mark Topics presented in order of discussion in recording 5 Explanation of tennis before it became Open 10 Dell’s decision whether or not to accept the position as Davis Cup captain. 15 Law Offices of Donald Dell 20 Dell’s goal for the future of tennis 25 Impressions of Arthur Ashe 30 Dell’s Davis Cup team 35 Criticism for representing an African American Athlete at the time 40 Arthur’s future in politics if he had not passed away 45 Arthur Ashe at Wimbledon 50 Differences between Arthur Ashe and Stan Smith 55 Arthur Ashe’s curiosity 60 Visa for South Africa 65 Arthur Ashe’s publicizing of the discrimination in South Africa when he returned to the United States

70 Ashe’s and Dell’s surprise that a war did not occur in South Africa Fried 43

Interview Analysis

I interviewed Donald Dell, who was Arthur Ashe’s Davis Cup captain as well as his best friend. I researched Ashe’s early career, his success in tennis, his political views of the time period, and the actions he took to make a difference in the world. The research was detailed and interesting but I would have never consumed as much information or gained the desire to learn more if it wasn’t for my interview with Dell. Oral History presented the most attention-grabbing sections of the interview. Research provided me the knowledge I needed to understand the emotions and memories of Arthur Ashe that Dell had described to me.

Oral History is a local or personal narrative. It is personal first hand accounts. Oral

History comes from those people who speak about a time period from their personal position in the past and make history their own story. It is more fascinating than a master narrative, or information from a textbook, because the past does not appear to be as structured in Oral History.

Textbooks provide students with concrete facts and dates, the when and the where. Oral History provides the researcher with emotions, reactions, and thoughts in addition to the facts.

However, Oral History does have negative aspects to it as well. Textbooks written by historians always contain some bias. When it comes to local narratives, there is an even greater amount of unconscious preconceptions. When recounting the past, it is based off of personal opinion and how much detail the interviewee or historian is willing to speak about, write about, or remember.

The interview was about an hour and thirty minutes long, and was filled with intriguing stories and information. After warming up with some biographical questions Mr. Dell told me about his tennis career and how the game had changed since the time when he had played. Dell Fried 44 was never technically a professional tennis player because the sport had not yet been considered

“open” which meant they did not receive any prize money for playing the sport around the world, or in other words, they could not make a living off of tennis only. The sport of tennis did not become “open” until the year 1968. Playing tennis as an amateur inspired Dell in later years to help make tennis into a professional sport. Dell said, “My goal, Corey, was to really try and get tennis, in the 70’s, to become more professional, more prize money, a world wide circuit, and it really was to copy the PGA of golf. Golf had about a ten or twelve year head start on tennis. In the 60’s golf was being pro with prize money for players.” (qtd. in Fried 23) It was so exciting to me to think that I was sitting with someone who had this vision and passion for what they wanted the sport of tennis to become, and he helped make that dream a success. As long as I have been alive I have thought of tennis as a professional sport, and I was speaking with someone who made it that way.

Dell went on to become Sargent Shriver’s, (co-founder of the Peace Corps), assistant and explained what he did in that position. That was Dell’s dream job and became one of the most life changing experiences he had. Hearing about Dell’s political involvement and his phenomenal experiences with Sargent Shriver made me think about how eventful Dell’s life had been. I came to the interview with, what I thought was, an abundant amount of information about

Arthur Ashe and I was excited to hear more about it. In the beginning of the interview I realized I could have also done a completely different topic for the project, such as Robert Kennedy’s presidential campaign and assassination, or Sargent Shriver and the Peace Corps, and still used

Donald Dell as my interviewee.

As the interview continued we went on to talk about Arthur Ashe’s involvement in South

Africa, his diagnosis of AIDS, and the impact Ashe had on Donald Dell as well as the American Fried 45 people. I asked Mr. Dell about Ashe in South Africa and his reaction to the Visa troubles. I was surprised when Mr. Dell told me that he was the one who really helped persuade the South

African government to allow Ashe a Visa. Dell went on to tell me about Ashe’s diagnosis of

AIDS. I learned from this interview that AIDS during that time was thought of as a disease only gays or drug addicts received. Learning that was captivating and helped me understand why

Ashe had kept his diagnosis private for as long as possible. Through my research I knew that

Ashe obtained AIDS from a blood transfusion, but I learned that it was because the hospital he attended bought blood from strangers on streets of Harlem. Dell said that he tried to tell Ashe to go to a different doctor, “he got AIDS really out of a sense of loyalty.” (qtd. in Fried 32) Ashe did not want to go to a different doctor because he wanted to stay loyal to his doctor, who was his roommate at UCLA.

My interview brought so much more information than I was anticipating. I went into the interview with the mindset that I would learn about Arthur Ashe and only about him as a person and the things that he accomplished. After I left the interview I gained so much more information than that. I learned about Black Power, how much power press had, African-American perspectives, the history of tennis as a sport, South Africa, what it took to get a Visa, knowledge about AIDS, and the sports marketing business. I felt proud of my interview once it was over and thought that it went very well. The strengths of the interview were when I asked questions that enabled Dell to speak about Ashe’s character. I feel that Arthur Ashe as a person was the most fascinating to Dell. I enjoyed listening to him speak about Ashe because it gave me a great sense as to how close they truly were and the influence they had on each others lives. Although I would not hope to transcribe more, I feel as though I could have asked a few more questions with some more time. Donald Dell is a very busy man and had to attend a meeting which rushed the Fried 46 end of the interview. I wish I had asked Mr. Dell how he thought he had impacted Ashe’s life in addition to the reverse question. I also would have used a different recording device because the information in my interview was so important but the tape recorder only played one speed and transcribing was difficult.

Other than the actual historical information I learned a lot about how to research. I realized that when doing research I should look for both master and local narratives. There is always more to learn beyond the concrete facts. Fried 47

Works Consulted

1) Ashe, Arthur, and Neil Amdur. Arthur Ashe: Off the court. New York and Scarborough,

Ontario: n.p., n.d.

2) Ashe, Arthur, and Frank Deford. Arthur Ashe Portrait in Motion. N.p.: n.p., 1975.

3) Ashe, Arthur, and Alexander McNab. Arthur Ashe on Tennis. London: Alred A. Knopf, Inc.,

1995.

4) Ashe, Arthur, and Arnikd Rampersad. Days of Grace. New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1993.

5) Banta, Thomas J. “The Kennedy Assassination: Early thoughts and Emotions.” The Public

Opinon Quarterly. 24 Nov. 2008 .

6) Ernstoff, Jeffery, et al. www.arthurashe.org. 2007. 4 Feb. 2009 .

7) Nesbitt, Francis Njubi. Race for Sanctions: African Americans Against Apartheid. Indiana

University Press, 2004. 14 Dec. 2008 .

8) Wiessberg, Ted, and Coretta Scott King. Arthur Ashe Tennis Great. New York: Chealsea

House Publishers, 1991.