Constance I. Slaughter-Harvey

April 9, 2010; April 16, 2010; June 4, 2010; June 25, 2010; June 26, 2010; August 12, 2010

Recommended Transcript of Interview with Constance I. Slaughter-Harvey (Apr. 9, 2010; Citation Apr. 16, 2010; June 4, 2010; June 25, 2010; June 26, 2010; Aug. 12, 2010), https://abawtp.law.stanford.edu/exhibits/show/constance-i- slaughter-harvey.

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ABA Senior Lawyers Division

Women Trailblazers in the Law

ORAL HISTORY

of

CONSTANCE SLAUGHTER HARVEY

Interviewer: Verna Myers

Dates of Interviews:

April 9, 2010 April 16, 2010 June 4, 2010 June 25, 2010 June 26, 2010 August12,2010 Oral History of Constance S. Harvey Interview 1 (April 9, 2010)

Ms. Myers Good Evening and this is my first interview with Constance Iona Slaughter­

Harvey and we're doing this for the Oral History Project. It was amazing

when I read the definition of the words oral history. Do you agree with that,

Constance, that oral history definition is amazing. What do you think it is?

Ms. Harvey I think it's a short version of a reading about history. It's a systematic

collection of living testimony from people who tell you their own experiences.

Oral history opens up Chapters _ of the past and it preserves one's

experiences through recordings.

Ms. Myers Very good. Now, with that in mind, it just seems like we have oral history for

you to present to us.

Ms. Harvey Yes ma'am.

Ms. Myers The very first thing that we are interested in is you giving me your full name.

Ms. Harvey Okay. It's Constance Iona, I-o-n-a, Slaughter and my married name, last

name, is Harvey.

Ms. Myers Attorney Harvey. Where were you born and what date?

Ms. Harvey I was born in Jackson, Mississippi on Farish Street, F-a-r-i-s-h, and I was born

at a black hospital, Jeffrey Memorial Hospital, J-e-f-f-r-e-y. I was born

June 18, 1946.

Ms. Myers: At that time, was that the only hospital in Jackson?

51 I04950vl Ms. Harvey No, there were other hospitals, but this was the only hospital where a black

baby could be born in conditions that were not horrible.

Ms. Myers Did your parents tell you about how you made your grand entrance into the

world?

Ms. Harvey My mother said, on many occasions, that I was a painful delivery because I

weighed ten pounds. My daddy would also say that I was crying when I came

into the world and I've been crying ever since. I assumed he meant that I was

complaining.

Ms. Myers That sounds good to me. Okay, did your parents grow up together or did they

meet later on?

Ms. Harvey Mommy and daddy met at Tougaloo, Tougaloo College. She was going to

school there and daddy was going to school there also. Now momma had

graduated from Tougaloo High School, because Tougaloo had, that's T-o-u-g­

a-1-o-o, had a high school and a college and it was like a boarding school.

Daddy graduated from Lanier, L-a-n-i-e-r, Lanier High School in Jackson and

when he finished Lanier, he came to Toµgaloo and that's where he met

momma.

Ms. Myers And what year are we talking about, them graduating?

Ms. Harvey Daddy graduated in 1942.

Ms. Myers Okay.

Ms. Harvey He started school in 1942 and graduated the year after I was born.

2 51104950vl Ms. Myers Okay. With your parents being that age during that time, how did they both

end up in college?

Ms. Harvey My mother came from a family that was fairly well-educated. Her father

George Kelley "Papa", however, was not an educated man. He taught himself

to write and read. They lived in Tougaloo and the college was less than two

blocks from where they lived. It was Papa's desire that all of his children go

to school and get an education. My father's grandmother graduated from

Daniel Hand School, D-a-n-i-e-1, which was like an elementary school to

Tougaloo College. Her name was Anna, A-n-n-a, Hayden, H-a-y-d-e-n. Her

daughter, who was my grandmother, and daddy's mother, was Fannie, F-a-n­

n-i-e, Jane, J-a-n-e, Hayden, H-a-y-d-e-n and we called her "Hun," H-u-n.

She graduated from Tougaloo High School, which at that time was like a

college education. So daddy had no choice but to go to Tougaloo. When he

graduated from Lanier, he went to Tougaloo.

Well, momma lived two or three blocks from Tougaloo on what is now Kelly

Street. They met each other there.

Ms. Myers So you guys came from a long line of educators.

Ms. Harvey Right.

Ms. Myers Was that unusual for people during that time?

Ms. Harvey Of course. Very much so.

Ms. Myers So how would your family act? Were you snobbish or uppity?

Ms. Harvey I don't think you would say snobbish or uppity-

3 5 l l04950vl Ms. Myers Okay.

Ms. Harvey I came from good, black individuals and some of my fore-parents, like my

great grandmother were half-white. My grandfather, my great grandfather on

my mother' side was half-white and Indian. And he was from Bond, B-o-n-d,

Mississippi. It was named after my great grandfather's daddy. He had a

white family and he had a black family. My great grandfather Jack Edwards,

and he lived in Bond which is about 50 miles from the Gulf coast. Daddy's

grandmother was a mulatto.

Ms. Myers How did you get all this history out of this?

Ms. Harvey Well, right now, at my age, I'm not doing as well as I should because I'm

forgetting certain things however, the history it was sort of passed along. I'm

one who has utmost respect for my elders, and the older I get the more I

realize that that's the only way you can really know what you're capable of

doing. I always preferred being around the elderly, because I can always

travel with them. You didn't have to watch TV, you would sit down and

listen to them and they would tell you how things used to be and it just, it's

always infatuated me ... and I love history. So, when we would spend the

summers with my grandparents, (we lived in the Meridian for awhile and we

would come to Jackson and Tougaloo in the summers) and there would be no

TV, so you could either play outdoors until it was dark and then go to bed, or

you could play awhile, then come in, eat and then listen to how things used to

be. I always enjoyed listening to how things used to be.

Ms. Myers These half-white relatives that you spoke of-did you ever see them?

4 51104950vl Ms. Harvey My great grandmother, Anna Hayden, on my daddy's side, the one who

attended Daniel Hand School, we called her Dandy, D-a-n-d-y, she was, I

thought, a pretty woman. You just could see her whiteblood. And she was

permitted to go into the white community downtown, which was called the

Belhaven Fondren, F-o-n-d-r-e-n, Fondren area. She was permitted to go in

because Blacks were not permitted to go there. She was half-white, and could

pass for white. She would go in riding in her buggy and buy eggs for black

people; and then she would go back on North State Street, go back to

Tougaloo, what we called White Oaks Community, where you now have the

North Park Mall and County Line Road and Pear Orchard Road. My

grandmother, Dandy, is buried there on Avery Boulevard in a family cemetery

called J ohrison Cemetery.

Ms. Myers Did you ever, or any of you ever go with her to buy these eggs?

Ms. Harvey No, no, this is long before we were born.

Ms. Myers Okay.

Ms. Harvey So that's what I have been told. She was very old and she stayed with my

grandmother, Fannie Jane Hayden (Hun) and Papa Percy. She stayed with her

and so my grandmother, on my daddy's side, would tell us about these

experiences and Dandy, sometimes would tell us, but age had gotten the best

of her. At times she would confirm that that happened, and then again, she

would look as if she didn't know what was going on.

Ms. Myers When she told you guys, how did it make you feel?

5 51104950vl Ms. Harvey It was just interesting then, you know, I was just mentioning some stories.

Later on, it had a tremendous impact on us. Now on my daddy's father's side,

his mother was Dandy Rye, R-y-e. I don't know where we came up with two

Dandy's in our life. Dandy Rye was sort ofred-skinned and she had Indian

blood, a significant amount of Indian blood in her. She was not really an

educated woman, but she was a hard worker.

Ms. Myers Okay.

Ms. Harvey But that was on my daddy's side.

Ms. Myers Can you recall just one memorable event that involved you and your

grandparents?

Ms. Harvey I think my favorite grandparent, I never knew my mother's mother because

she died shortly after my mother was born and her name was Iona. She was

the one who had quite a bit of Indian blood in her, she was absolutely a

beautiful woman in the pictures that I saw. Her name was Iona Evans. Her

father was the one who's father was white Mayor of Bond, MS. I never saw

Grandma Ione. I heard good things about her and she was so beautiful so I

just admire her. But my grandfather, my momma's father, George Asbury,

A-s-b-u-r-y, Kelly, the one who taught himself to read and write and the one

who was always there for me, married a lady we called Ms. Ida, 1-d-a. She

raised my mother, my two aunts and my uncle. The only memory that I have

of her is that she was like a wicked step-momma. You know, she would make

tea cakes and hide them from us. She was just really, sort of mean, and

mistreated my mother even in our presence.

6 51104950vl My grandfather on my daddy's side, we called him Papa Percy, P-a-p-a,

Percy, P-e-r-c-y -- he was a mason. He couldn't read and couldn't write but

he was a hardworking man. I loved him. Now he, you know, he had

blackness in him, he was a black man. He had a beautiful laugh, and he was a

hard worker. When he relied on my grandmother, who was very educated, to

do business for him and it was my grandmother who sold their land to Whites

while we were out of the state in 1957.

My favorite grandparent was Papa (George Kelly), and we argued but he was,

by far, my favorite. He always had advice, unsolicited advice. When I was at

the University where I went to law school, he was writing me every week, on

cornbread paper. That's old-fashioned paper that's cheap. He would use a

pencil and he would always take pride in having a plain white envelope. It

wouldn't be a cornbread envelope, it was a plain, white envelope and he sent

it to me and he used a pencil He never wanted to use a pen. He would tell me

to read the Bible and he always gave me advice. He was so excited when I

opened my office in Forest two years after I graduated. He would come to my

office and everyone of my clients heard about my life. He was telling how he

saved my life, how I ate so much and how I did this and that I had to call my

mama and tell her to please come get him out of my office because he was

running clients away. He would go up to the store (Six Cees Superette -­

named after my sisters and me) and he would tell people at the store that they

shouldn't be drinking beer; and they shouldn't be smoking cigarettes. Then

daddy would run him out of the store because it was messing with business. I

7 51104950vl didn't want him in my office because he was telling all my business. He lived

with my mother and my father, for five or six years and died in their home. I

loved him, you know, we argued all the time but I loved him, loved him,

loved him.

Ms. Myers You keeping saying how all your grandparents were hard workers. What

were some of the occupations at that time?

Ms. Harvey Okay. Papa Percy, that's daddy's daddy, Papa Percy was a mason and he

worked with concrete and plaster. His wife, Fannie (Hun), was a

housekeeper. She was educated. She was very, very intelligent. She would

read the Bible for Papa Percy, 'cause he couldn't read yet he knew more about

the Bible than she did, so, you know, he was very intelligent. Papa, George

Kelly was a shoemaker and he was a carpenter. He was self-trained. Now, I

didn't know my mother's mother so I don't know what her occupation was.

Ms. Myers Are there any houses or any buildings that you know of that they laid bricks

for or built?

Ms. Harvey Papa Percy had many buildings ?11over the state. I know there were several

in Jackson, downtown. My folks told me on many occasions that he had

assisted laying, in laying the foundation for the State Capitol and I'm

assuming it's the Old State Capitol, except for renovations. Papa built my

parent's home, that's no longer there, but he also did some work in my house.

So, when Papa died in 1981 and I was living in Forest and so was he. He built

houses in Forest and built cabinets and bookshelves. I still have in my law

office some bookshelves he built. He told me that because I had graduated

8 51 l04950vl from law school, I still was not educated "cause education was part of your

life as long as you lived." He appreciated books, even though he taught

himself to read. The bookshelves that he made, I still have them, even though

they're getting kind of out of shape, I still have them.

Ms. Myers Did you find their work ethics to be different from the work ethics of

grandparents today?

Ms. Harvey I just think that there's a difference in the mold of grandparents then and

grandparents today. Grandparents today are generally much younger.

Ms. Myers Uh-hmm.

Ms. Harvey Grandparents back then, I think, considered themselves role models for their

children and their grandchildren I think they were aware of that and even

though they may have had experiences in life or they had habits that they

would not want to share, to reveal themselves to their grandchildren. They

didn't play cards with their grandchildren. They didn't drink liquor with their

grandchildren. They didn't curse, they didn't party, and grandparents back

then were special. You looked forward to spending time with grandchildren

and I'm not saying from my experience, I'm just saying from experiences of

my friends. [inaudible] and my grand-mama come to mind. Even though you

did like them, you might have problems with her. She was still your grand­

mama and she was going to do this and she was going to tell you what you

were doing wrong. Now, I don't think young children understand how special

grandparents are because grandparents, some of the grandparents are out there

partying with the children, in fashion and some of the grandparents look like

9 51104950vl their children, some of the grandparents compete with their children. They

drink with their children and sometimes grandparents today are more their

grandchildren's friends. Now this is not typical of all grandparents but those

that I have dealings with, you have some grandparents who really don't fit

"the grandparent image."

Ms. Myers Now we're still dealing with grandparents and great grandparents.

Ms. Harvey Uh-huh.

Ms. Myers Can you recall what politics were going on that was significant at that time?

Ms. Harvey During my grandparents' time?

Ms. Myers Uh-hmm.

Ms. Harvey Not that I was alive-

Ms. Myers Not when they were alive. Things that they talked about, I mean, was this

during the Depression or after?

Ms. Harvey Yes, and my grandfather used to always tell us, "You think times are hard

now? If you had been around, you would have been glad to see a piece of

bread with no peanut butter, just a piece of bread." And it was a time,

according to Papa, you didn't want to talk about and you definitely did not

want to be back there. And with Papa Percy, he was fortunate because he had

a job because he was a mason. So his experience was different than Papa.

See Papa Percy had a trade and he was going to get paid. Papa had to teach

himself basic things and he taught himself two trades. He survived when it

was hard. Now my momma would talk about how hard it was but Papa was

10 51 l04950vl usually positive and thankful. He would always, whenever I complained

about anything, when I used to complain about segregation and racism. Papa

would always say, "Times were worse than they are now." And I didn't want

to hear that. That was a terrible time in their life and they did not want to

revisit that at all.

Ms. Myers They had land so where did the Whites live?

Ms. Harvey They had land. As I recall, it was more than 150, 160 acres and it was out in a

little area called White Oaks. Whites lived far away that, I mean, there was

some who were their neighbors but they were not right next door to them.

Ms. Myers So, were there, I know there was segregation but, you know, were there any

conflicts going on during that time? There were separate churches, separate

schools and didn't try to integrate or mingle or-

Ms. Harvey Different worlds. There were different worlds and you just dare not get

confused as to your world . I had an aunt who worked for white folks all of

her life and she started working for white folks when she was like eight or

nine. She raised their children, fed and nursed families that she raised and

you, when you went into the white world, you went in there with conditions

and your condition was that you would be a servant. That's why it was so

ironic that my great grandmother, 'Dandy,' would get in her little buggy and

go to town down North State Street. She would shop as a white woman and

bring the food back to the Black people. So it was definitely separate ...

anybody who would ask you to believe anything other than that is mistaken -­

it was two different worlds. And you did not venture into the white world if

11 5 I 104950vl you were black. You could venture into the black world if you were white -

you obviously did that when you came to pick up people to take them to work,

when you came to get money from somebody, when you came to collect. But

now white, black folks had to have permission to go into the White world.

You didn't need permission if you were white, to come into the black world

and I guess that part of history disturbs me. I don't get the same reaction now

at this age that I got when I was 16 and even up until about 3 5. The

unfairness and the pain associated with that infuriated me.

Ms. Myers It sounds like you were a radical even then?

Ms. Harvey I just, I just had serious problems with anybody being mistreated for

something that they had no control over. And I guess that's still a part of my

life today, even though I react differently.

Ms. Myers Did any of this have any influence on the career you've chosen?

Ms. Harvey My upbringing had quite a bit to do with what I wanted to do in life. I

originally wanted to be a missionary and most people would just take the

similar expression that you just gave me. You know, you being a missionary!

You know, yeah, I wanted to, I had the impression that missionaries helped

people who were black and who were poor and needed help but I didn't know.

I did not want to go to Africa to help them because I knew that there was a

need for people here to help in America, in Mississippi. So, the only thing I

could equate that with was a missionary. That was my desire and my chosen

profession up until I got into high school and then I wanted to be a doctor.

And my favorite subject, one of my favorite subjects, was chemistry. I loved

12 51104950vl chemistry and I understood that I had to have chemistry in order to be a

doctor. I didn't particularly care for biology but chemistry was exciting so I

changed my chosen profession. I wanted to be a doctor. So when I graduated

from high school, I went to Tougaloo that summer before I actually enrolled

as a freshman for the Pre-Science Program which was a prerequisite for pre­

med school. Dr. Elmo Brady was our professor and he taught chemistry and

that was right up my alley. And then John Gardner, G-a-r-d-n-e-r, John

Gardner, was the physics professor. He was a Tougaloo College professor;

(he's still there I believe). And it was during that time that I met, met Medgar

Evers and let me go back. Dr. Brady's name was B-r-a-d-y, Dr. Elmo, E-1-m­

o, Elmo Brady. I believe he was the first black graduate from the University

of Chicago Medical School, I believe that's correct. But it was during

Pre-Science Program which was sponsored by the National Science

Foundation, N-S-F, that's what they called it, NSL Pre-Science, Pre-Med

Program. It was during that time, June 1963, I met Medgar Evers. He came

to Tougaloo in June and encouraged me to get involved -- he was really like a

'Pied Piper'. He was a very handsome man but unlike some good-looking

men, he had a message and the message was so easy to grasp. And his eyes.

It looked like you could see his soul through his eyes and I was just, I was in a

trance. And when he talked about empowering people and how Black people,

and he said Negroes then, were being mistreated for something we had

nothing to do with, I just automatically saw is soul because that was my

13 51104950vl language. And twelve days later, he was assassinated. And that created the

anger that engulfed me for 20-some years.

Ms. Myers Okay and

SIDE B

Ms. Myers After Medgar Evers' traumatic death, did this begin your awesome journey

into civil rights?

Ms. Harvey It did. His death, which I consider to be so very unnecessary, was so painful.

This caused me very serious anger and almost hatred at the system that

permitted Medgar who was a very decent and compassionate man, to be

assassinated. Perhaps the reason I was so angry is that the system, the

political and legal systems, appeared to be supportive of that insanity, hatred

and racism that resulted in his death. It was during this time, I believe, that I

made a vow to do what I could to change and destroy the system that led to

his death.

Ms. Myers Can you recall any incidents that happened the night of his death? How did

people react knowing you were angry?

Ms. Harvey There were people on television who appeared to be elated that this man who

wanted to be an agitator for peace, had been killed. The national feeling or

expression, as I recall was sadness and anger. Mississippi Whites appeared to

be happy.

Ms. Myers Where were you when this happened?

14 5l l04950vl Ms. Harvey I was going to Tougaloo College. I was in the Pre-Science Program. I was on

the campus, in my room.

Ms. Myers You keep talking about Tougaloo. What kind of place was Tougaloo during

that time?

Ms. Harvey Tougaloo is spelled TO U GALO O and it means "between two rivers."

Tougaloo was referred to by segregationists in Mississippi as a place where

blacks and whites congregated and slept together. They often referred to

Tougaloo as being a haven for communists and troublemakers and liberals and

people desiring to change Mississippi. Tougaloo was a liberal arts college ...

A four year liberal arts college that was originally a Church of God in Christ

School. It was founded in 1863, I believe and it was founded by a slave

owner with Black children who wanted his children to go to school. So he

established Tougaloo College for his children. It is said by some that in order

to go to Tougaloo back then you had to be half white. Consequently, for

several years what we called "light-skinned black people" went to Tougaloo.

I guess my daddy broke that because he was not light-skinned and he was a

Tougaloo student. Tougaloo was a place where when the 'Freedom Riders'

came to Mississippi or when anyone came to the State to change segregation,

they were welcomed in Tougaloo. Tougaloo had a gate that it was surrounded

by a fence. It had a gate that was supposed to mean "freedom," and once you

got inside the gate, the gate would close and nobody from the outside could

bother you. We often referred to it as an 'oasis in the middle of the desert.'

Desert being Mississippi.

15 5l l04950vl Ms. Myers Let's backup to this white syndrome. How did you find it? What did the

people look like?

Ms. Harvey There were quite a few Tougaloo students who were light skinned and there

were some who were not light skinned. I would say that it was a pretty good

mixture. Maybe more light skinned. But now, that was in 1963 when I went

there. It was alleged to have been for 'half-whites only' when it first started

and that was in 1863. So you're dealing with about 100 years.

Ms. Myers Do your parents have any pictures of people back then or yearbooks?

Ms. Harvey They have pictures. My parents were in pictures. I would say that you

probably had maybe 60 percent light skinned and maybe 40 percent pretty

brown color.

Ms. Myers Very good. Now let's move up to your parents. We've dealt with as much as

we can about your grandparents. If you have anything else you'd like to say

about your grandparents, we can take that up in another interview?

Ms. Harvey Yes, ma'am.

Ms. Myers Or if you recall anything, just write it down and we'll go back over it. I'm

sure you recall some things. Okay? Your parents. Tell me something in your

early life that you recall about your parents that stood out with you.

Ms. Harvey Collectively, my parents together? Or something about my mother and

something about my father?

Ms. Myers Let's start with your mother.

16 51104950vl Ms. Harvey What I will always remember and perhaps it was the earliest recollection I

have of my mother is that Christmas we were in Meridian. M-E-R-I-D-I-A-N.

That's where we moved to when we left Tougaloo. My daddy got a job as a

coach at a high school as a math and social science teacher. We moved to

Meridian. My mother wanted to get all of us (her six girls) coats. We went

down town to get these coats for Christmas. We went into the store. They

really didn't want us in the store but we went in. It was called Marks

Rothenburg in Meridian. They would not let us try on the coats. She had to

measure us in order to get the coats to fit us. They wouldn't let us try on the

coats because we were black. I remember her measuring us and I could see

the expression on her face, like a pain, as she went bought the coats. She later

explained to me after we moved to Forest and after I'd become an adult that

that experience was very painful for her but she wanted her children to be

warm and she wanted us to have the best. So I appreciate that. That solidified

my belief that my mother made serious sacrifices for us at her own expense.

That was typical of my mother. Two images that are always painted in mind

when I think of Mama. When I would go to bed at night Mama would be on

her knees praying. When I got up early in the morning she would be on her

knees praying. She was a prayerful woman. What I did after she died is I

started getting on my knees at night praying. I would always read my Bible in

the morning when I got up. She would always say that she was thanking the

Lord for letting her get through a day. She got up and thanked him for letting

her get through the night and asking him to help her get through the day. That

17 51 l04950vl was so consistent with her life. I'd always hear Mama singing in the morning

when I woke, especially on weekends because I could sleep a little later. I

would hearing her singing. That's the recollection I have of my mother.

Ms. Myers With the coats, did you have ... were you guys standing outside waiting on

her to measure you?

Ms. Harvey Yes, yes. We were outside.

Ms. Myers Did you understand what was going on?

Ms. Harvey Not really.

Ms. Myers Okay.

Ms. Harvey I knew we were getting coats and we were excited about getting coats. We

got some pretty coats.

Ms. Myers Discipline must have been very difficult for your parents at that time. What

type discipline did they use on you guys?

Ms. Harvey Well, there were six girls and Mama had six girls in seven years. There were

different kinds of discipline. Mama's discipline was to talk to you and make

you feel bad about what you had done. She might slap you on your butt. But

she was a very patient woman. Daddy, on the other hand, was a coach and he

was accustomed to disciplining boys, not girls. What he would do is, if you

acted up he would tell you you were going to get a whipping. Not a spanking.

It was a whipping. And you would rather get the whipping than the

anticipation of the whipping. I think I may have gotten three whippings in my

life. And what I mean whippings, they were, compared to what happens now,

18 51104950vl ,

they were not whippings they were just ... you got a "good paddling" with a

belt. Daddy's other form of discipline was to ignore you. If you was so bad

he didn't want to physically deal with you, he would talk around you as if you

were not there. I became so good at being on the receiving end of that that I

didn't know that he was in the room. I could wipe him out just like he could

wipe me out. That has helped me develop into the person I am today. When

somebody is intentionally trying to make me angry or when people ... one

guy called me 'nigger' and I was not prepared to fight him then. I just wiped

him out. But using the word 'nigger,' maybe one exception I could wipe it

out but generally that would set me off. He taught us that if a person is

bothering you ignore them. You could become so good at it you could really

ignore them. I was not that good at ignoring somebody who intentionally

tried to hurt me. The different forms of discipline were obviously very

different. I think they were very effective though.

Ms. Myers So you think the temperament of your mother was very soft-spoken, easy

going, but firm.

Ms. Harvey Yes.

Ms. Myers Okay. So did you inherit any of this?

Ms. Harvey One of my friends, Thomas Colbert, a banker, knew me when I was growing

up and he knew my parents. He often said that I was a good combination of

my mother and father. But he said once upon a time that I had none of my

mama in me and we laughed about that. But I beg to differ with him because I

think I've always been a very compassionate person; and have always loved

19 5 l l04950vl children and older people. However, that had to take backseat to my mission

to bring about a change in Mississippi.

I had to have an armor of toughness which sometimes I think I didn't have. It

was a front because I had to make certain that people knew not to bother me

and to leave me alone. So I think later on it was a good combination, mixture

of both of them.

Ms. Myers So you think the prayer and the compassion came from your mother.

Anything else you think that has lasted, that she instilled in you?

Ms. Harvey Mama's love for books and love for travel, she did not travel much. And

writing. My mother was the first black person to be a columnist, a weekly

columnist for a local paper. Scott County Times. When she was dying, she

asked me to do several things for her. One of which was to keep the Slaughter

Library News, which was a weekly column. Keep it going and I told her, "No

ma'am. I'm not about to do that because I didn't think it was relevant." She

asked me a second time and so I did it and I've been writing that column for

almost 20 years. She had a love for words and a love for travel. She got a

chance to go to England after my father died, and that was the greatest

experience for her because she loved Shakespeare. She could quote

Shakespeare, and she just loved it. When she came back, she was in heaven.

I would joke with her and say "It's nothing for me to go to England. Well, I

wouldn't want to go to England, I want to go to Africa." That would just

tickle her. I wanted to go back to the country from which my ancestors were

taken. I wanted to see what we could have had or what we should have had.

20 51104950vl But that wasn't on her radar. She was just a different person. I always said

she was so classy.

I think people don't understand my father. Daddy was tough but that was one

of the kindest men I've ever met in my life. Underneath that surface, he was

probably one of the sweetest people you'd ever want to meet. But you would

have to really know him very intimately in order to appreciate his goodness.

Ms. Myers Civil rights? Where they openly involved in the civil rights?

Ms. Harvey My mother was supportive. My father paid his poll taxes in 1952. I still have

his poll tax receipt on my desk. That keeps me focused, grounded, and

centered. Daddy was afraid of no man and that's why I just take off my hat to

him. My mother was afraid for him, but he was afraid of no one. As an aside,

he lost his right-hand in the service in 1942. When he was coming back from

Battle Creek, MI, (hospital) and I'm not sure if it were bleeding blood on the

bandage or not, but he was asked to get up and give his seat to a white woman

and there were other seats on the bus. My mother said that she had to grab

him and hold him to keep him from going off. Every time I think of it that, it

makes me absolutely furious that a person would give their left hand and then

be relegated to being a second-class citizen! That made me angry and that's

why I think I can understand his anger at the system. But despite his anger

and his disappointment with the system, my Daddy was a good role model.

He was one of the best high school coaches. He was a Big 8 champion. Big 8

was the Black Athletic State Association, football and basketball. He was an

Athletic Commissioner for East Central Athletic Association. He was

21 5 l 104950vl President of the NAACP until his death. He was the first black person to

become an alderman in the City of Forest. He was head of the MT A, the

Mississippi Teachers Association. He was just an accomplished man. He was

my idol and mentor. Really, my Daddy could do no wrong. I loved to argue

with him. He helped me with taking a position and sticking with it. If you

realized you've made a mistake, you admit it but you don't retract. You admit

it and move on. I regret that he never saw me in court a day in his life. He

said that he could not witness a judge telling me to sit down, rule me out of

order, or discriminate against me. I respected that. I would go to court and

when I returned, I'd tell him what happened. He would give his perspective.

I didn't realize why he was not going to court until my mother told me. Both

of my parents were very influential in my life. Neither one of them wanted

me to go to the University of Mississippi because they were concerned about

my welfare. But they knew I was going.

Ms. Myers And they knew ... they were always involved in civil rights?

Ms. Harvey They were always involved in civil rights. My daddy was not out there

waving a flag and doing all that but he was president of NAACP. He just

didn't tolerate injustices. Now he didn't go around trying to get people to join

him. He stood his ground. When people had problems they came to Daddy.

Ms. Myers Speaking of flags, how do you think either of them would have responded to

the confederate flag issue that's going on today?

Ms. Harvey I know how they'd respond. They didn't like it. I had a confederate flag

when I was at the University of Mississippi as a floor mat in my dorm and

22 51104950vl everybody knew it, but nobody would bother me. That same confederate flag

that I had in 1967, I've had that same flag on my floor in my house. They felt

like I felt. It was an insult. I've taken the position and I've written an article

where I said that I never refer to the University of Mississippi as Ole Miss

because Ole Miss is a slave phrase for a white woman who is above me. The

companion is Old Master. So as long as the University of Mississippi is

referred to as Ole Miss, I have reservations. I always refer to it as the

University of Mississippi School of Law.

Ms. Myers So what is the significance of the flag on the floor? Is that a disrespect to the

flag?

Ms. Harvey Yes.

Ms. Myers Okay.

Ms. Harvey My disdain for it.

Ms. Myers Now, I'm trying to figure out how you got from Bond, Mississippi to Forest,

Mississippi. Can you recall how?

Ms. Harvey Okay. My mother's mother, Iona Evans, was born in Bond, MS. She never

came to Jackson because she died when my mother's sister was born. Papa,

George Kelly, married a woman and they came to Tougaloo, MS. My father

was born in Tougaloo so he was already in Tougaloo. So when he came to

Tougaloo College, he met my mother and they was married and they ran a

little grill (store). Daddy got a job in Meridian when he graduated. My

mother and father moved to Meridian where three of my sisters were born.

23 51104950vl Cynthia, Clarice and Carolyn. I'm thinking, yeah, that's right. Daddy worked

in Meridian. He was at Harris Junior College and Harris High School. He

stayed there until 1954. Then he got an offer to come to Forest to serve as a

coach and high school instructor in math and social studies. We came to

Forest in 1954. Mama and Daddy lived there until they died. I'm still there in

Forest.

Ms. Myers Okay. Do you recall what grammar school you attended?

Ms. Harvey I attended West End Elementary School. That was in Meridian.

Ms. Myers What were some of the conditions in school at that time?

Ms. Harvey It was a fairly decent school. It was in Meridian and Meridian is like the

second or third largest town in Mississippi. It was not a rural school. It was

not one of those schools where you had to walk a mile. It was in town. It was

a decent, nice school. I recall looking out of the windows a lot, playing and

enjoying myself. My recollection of school was good.

Ms. Myers All Black?

Ms. Harvey All Black.

Ms. Myers Did you guys go to school the whole year?

Ms. Harvey We went nine months out of the year. Remember, I'm saying, this is

Meridian. So you didn't have to work on the farms in that area. Now when

we moved to Forest, that was a different thing. It was a different mindset and

the environment was different. Conditions were different, but we were still in

24 51104950vl what you called a city school. Meridian, East End Elementary was a good

experience for me.

Ms. Myers Did grammar school help you decided what kind of job you wanted or?

Ms. Harvey Only thing I liked about grammar school was reading aloud and I loved it.

Writing on the board; I loved that. Playing.

Ms. Myers What were some of your hobbies in grammar school?

Ms. Harvey I've always loved to play. I mean outside, just running and playing. I loved

to color. Still love to color. I loved to listen to stories.

Ms. Myers In grammar school, were there any after school activities or did everybody

have to go straight home?

Ms. Harvey You went straight home.

Ms. Myers Why?

Ms. Harvey Because the teachers were leaving. We rode to school with my daddy because

he was a teacher. We rode to school with him. When he would have football

practice, we would go over to the school and we'd sit around and talk to older

people. Just have a good time.

Ms. Myers So did people treat you any different because you were a teacher's child?

1 Ms. Harvey I think so. I once had a teacher, when I was in the 6 h grade, who gave me a

whipping because she said I was my daddy's child. To this day I always make

certain that I don't make a difference in a child because of how I feel about

their parents. Yes, there were people who were nice to us. Daddy's boss (Mr.

25 51104950vl Reed) would take us riding while waiting for Daddy. He bought me an ice

cream bar. I ate it. When I got home Daddy saw the ice cream on my mouth

and asked me where it came from and I told him I took it from Mr. Reed.

He'd always told us, "You never take anything from anybody and especially

don't take anything from a man." I got a whipping for that. Mr. Reed

laughed about it. He knew what was going o_n. You just don't take things

from people without getting permission.

Ms. Myers Do you recall any famous people coming to your school or coming to town

when you were in grammar school?

Ms. Harvey Not really. Not really.

Ms. Myers Do you remember who the governor was at the time you were in grammar

school?

Ms. Harvey Well I know that Fielding Wright was the governor when I was born. I think

he was still governor when I was in Meridian. I didn't know it then. But the

first governor that I remember was J.P. Coleman. And then I remember Ross

Barnett. That.' s because I was of age where I was very much tuned into that.

But in grammar school, I don't really think I cared.

Ms. Myers Do you think students in grammar school now are in tune with politics?

Ms. Harvey I think some are. I love to speak to kids who are in grammar school and I read

to kids in school in Forest. They're into it. Black and white kids, I read to

them about Barack Obama. Yeah, they are in tune.

Ms. Myers Do you think the media has anything to do with that?

26 51104950vl Ms. Harvey I think so. I think that young children who watch television and also who are

on the internet have much more of an opportunity to be informed of global

matters than we were. Our homes back then were our televisions & internets.

Ms. Myers Okay.

Ms. Harvey We didn't have TVs and things like that. When we got a television in 1956,

we were the talk of the town and it was black and white.

Ms. Myers At that time of grammar school, do you recall who your best friend was?

Ms. Harvey I had two good friends. We'd probably fall out maybe once a month but

Vernal Williams, she was an only child; and, Bobbie Jean Harris. They were

my best friends.

Ms. Myers What was it about them that you liked?

Ms. Harvey One of them was very funny .. Bobby Jean was very funny, very silly and

could always make me laugh. And Verna wanted to be somebody. She had a

watch. She was the only child. She had good stuff. She liked being around

me. She always liked me. She liked me because of who I was, not who my

father was ...

27 51104950vl Oral History of Constance S. Harvey Interview 2 (April 16, 2010)

Ms. Myers Good evening. Today is April 16, 2010. Constance Iona Slaughter-Harvey

and I, Ms. Myers, of Madison, Mississippi, are together in her home here in

Jackson. This is our second interview in this location. Now, there are two

reasons why we are meeting at this historical location. Constance will give

you one reason and when she finishes, I will give you another one. Now

Constance, why are we at this location?

Ms. Harvey This is the location where you and I first met. This is the home that I

purchased one year after law school. It was one of the most beautiful and still

is one of the most beautiful areas in Jackson. It's on Pecan Boulevard. In

addition to having pecans, plenty of pecans, the street is laced with Azaleas.

This time of year, it's just absolutely beautiful. This is the place where Mrs.

Myers and I enjoyed many good years. This is the place where we bonded

and it's a place to me where I can always find a peace of mind. I think Pecan

Boulevard is the appropriate place for us to continue this part of the interview.

Ms. Myers Thank you. It is evident that Attorney Slaughter Harvey has spent countless

hours, days, weeks and years at this place. Here she worked relentlessly and

has emerged not only as a prominent black female attorney but a pioneer in

the civil rights movement. A humanitarian and a model citizen. Among other

things, popular things and a little bit more popular, she's a Christian, a

mother, wife and a friend to many. Now the reason why I chose this place is

51 l l 1457vl the second reason she's already given it. This is where I first met her. Very

humbly she was giving a party and I was invited. So I thought this was such

an appropriate place to have our first and second meetings. Okay, we met last

week and we had an excellent interview. Is there anything you omitted or you

desire to discuss from last week, early grammar years?

Ms. Harvey I can't think of anything else that I would add except to say that during my

grammar school years there was a transition in my life. I started out at West

End Elementary School in Meridian. In 1954 we transitioned. My family and

I moved from Meridian to Forest where I still live. It was a transition in my

grammar school years and I never made another transition of that nature until

I left and went to college.

Ms. Myers Okay, well that's good. I have three questions from the last interview. What

was your personality like in grammar school?

Ms. Harvey I think I was, I've been told, I was a fun person to be around. But even at that

age, I was serious about my homework. I liked to have order and I always had

problems with bullies.

Ms. Myers What do you think is the most inspiring aspects about your personality and

character?

Ms. Harvey Perseverance.

Ms. Myers Okay. Now, in your last interview you mentioned Daniel Hand School. Are

you familiar with who Daniel Hand was?

2 51111457vl Ms. Harvey Daniel Hand School was a grammar school for Tougaloo High School. I

don't know who Mr. Daniel was but it was called Daniel Hand School. I was

under the impression that a hand school was similar to a grammar school. I'm

not certain if that is correct or not. Mama would always mention Daniel Hand

School. I' II be glad to look at that but I just labored under the impression that

it was like a grammar school.

Ms. Myers Okay, well I'll tell you.

Ms. Harvey Okay. [ LAUGHTER. ]

Ms. Myers Hand was the man's last name.

Ms. Harvey Okay.

Ms. Myers He was born in Madison, CT. In 1801 he was a merchant in Augusta, GA and

Charleston, SC. After the Civil War he was hired and returned to the North.

Now, in 1888 he gave the American Missionary Association more than $1

million to be held in trust and be known as the Daniel Hand Educational Fund

for Colored People.

Ms. Harvey Okay. Thank you for the background information.

Ms. Myers Now, and that was to be used in States that recognized slavery.

Ms. Harvey Okay.

Ms. Myers Now, do you think Mr. Hand gave such generous donation just because he

was good or because he had previously owned slaves in the South?

3 5llll457vl Ms. Harvey I think it's probably because he owned slaves. Because that would be more

consistent with Tougaloo, tying into Tougaloo, because Tougaloo College was

established by a white slave owner who had slave children and he wanted the

best for his children. So now I can see the connection. And I'm glad you told

me. This interview, if it does nothing else, it helps me with that. I can tell all

of my sisters and anybody else who had relatives going to Daniel Hands

School. I was always under the impression that it was the grammar school

part of Tougaloo High School. But Daniel Hand. I appreciate knowing that.

I really do.

Ms. Myers Very good. Now in 1954, you were in Meridian and do you recall the famous

case that came down?. Now let me ask you, how did you react to Brown v.

Board of Education; 347 U.S. 483 (1954)?

Ms. Harvey All I remember at that time, and I was eight years old when Brown came

down, was my father's expression that it was about time. Insofar as having

any other memory that were with me at that time, that's the only thing I can

remember in 1954 and that it was about that time and moving to Forest.

Because that was the year we moved to Forest.

Ms. Myers Okay, yeah, you know at eight, you don't .... think a lot about a whole lot of

things. All we do is look at the reactions of our parents.

Ms. Harvey Right.

Ms. Myers Another one of the questions that you've already mentioned was how your

father reacted to that not knowing that it was going to have such an impact

4 5 l l ll457vl later on. Okay. Can you remember anything about the schools? The grades?

The conditions of the schools. I think we've mentioned this before. This is

leading into did you ever wonder why you didn't go to the same schools as the

whites?

Ms. Harvey Yes. I wondered but it really never mattered to me at that time because our

father was a teacher and we rode to school in the car with him. So we didn't

have to walk and we didn't have to see whites on school buses passing us

while we were standing waiting.

Ms. Myers Okay.

Ms. Harvey It was not a personal experience that was a part of my memory. I do,

however, recall, probably one of the greatest indignities. I loved books and I

loved new books. I never got a new book while I was in school. I always had

a book that had "F" or "D" written in there as conditions. An "F" meant fair.

And all the books I got should have had a "P" in it which stood for poor. But

when you had a "D" it meant discard. Instead of getting rid of the books,

discarding the books, they took them and gave them to Black children which

always incensed me. If I'm going to give a magazine for somebody or a

newspaper for somebody, I like to give them a new book, a new newspaper, a

new magazine. I hate to give somebody a book that's been used. And that

really, I think that goes back to my experiences back then in school.

Ms. Myers Yes, Mississippi was noted for sending out old books to Parchman, MS.

Ms. Harvey Yes.

5 51 ll 1457vl Ms. Myers The inmates at the prisons would erase what they could and then they would

send them to the black schools. Even in Jackson, we had the same thing. And

that's why it's just. ... Well, what do you think about how students treat books

today?

Ms. Harvey Well, in Scott County in some of the school districts, the children don't have

books to take home. They let them use the books at school but they can't take

them home. That bothers me. If a child is having problems, let them have a

book so they can read and make notes. I'm thinking that's probably better

than we had when we had books that had been spat on, slept on and urinated

on. And that was the best that we could have. The children in my district

now, and we're working with the school board on that, don't have books to

take home at all. .. budgetary problems.

Ms. Myers Okay.

Ms. Harvey So that shows the more things change the more they stay the same.

Ms. Myers White teachers? Were there any?

Ms. Harvey· I had no white teachers until I went to Tougaloo.

Ms. Myers In 1955 there was the murder of Emmett Louis "Bobo" Till. A teenager

from Chicago accused of whistling at a White woman. Do you remember or

recall any reactions from your parents or the neighborhood or anybody?

Ms. Harvey I remember my parents being very, very angry. I remember that probably was

the first time I'd ever become so angry as a young person. It just really made

me sick. There was news about it on our television. We were one of the very

6 51111457vl few families that had television. I remember being angry, angry. I remember

both my parents being very upset. Daddy, as usual, was just adamant that life,

at that point in time, was just not fair for Black people and this made him very

angry.

Ms. Myers Do you think that the previous Brown v. Board of Education, 347 U.S. 483

(1954) had any bearing on the cruelty at that time? Do you think people were

angry themselves? They were angry?

Ms. Harvey I think White folks were angry because they felt that if you were white you

would stick with white folks. And here you have courts that obviously were

all white and all male and they were saying that what the Whites had been

doing was wrong. I think its symptomatic of a society that makes its own

rules when the states that had separate schools were told 'separate but equal'

is a problem. And they just took the attitude that says 'make me or we won't

do it.' That happened in 1955 and 1956. Now with the Tea Party folks, who

are saying that, okay so you passed the law, now make us do it. It's the same

thing happening.

Ms. Myers Yes. Now the accusers were immediately acquitted.

Ms. Harvey Oh, you're talking about. . .I'm sorry.

Ms. Myers No, you're fine.

Ms. Harvey Okay. Okay.

Ms. Myers They were immediately acquitted and you say your father reacted very

angrily. Did it get the community together at all?

7 5llll457vl Ms. Harvey Very quietly. What you have to remember is that people who spoke out were

lynched or were destroyed. Their character destroyed. We had many a

discussion in our house. My mother had a few friends. My daddy had a few

friends. We had a few friends because there were six girls and we liked each

other. So our family had many discussions about the inequities and the

unfairness in the situation. We talked about it. We always had discussions

around the breakfast table on weekends or the dinner table every night. The

lunch table on Saturdays and Sundays. We had our own school about life

with our parents.

Ms. Myers You mentioned [lynching]?

Ms. Harvey Uh-huh.

Ms. Myers What did you hear about lynching as a young child?

Ms. Harvey It was always a remedy for individuals who challenged the system. My

daughter bought a book about lynching, pictures of lynchings, several years

ago. She bought it for children at the Slaughter Library. I didn't want them to

see that book. I know it was unfair for me to make that decision. But it was

hard for me to look at those pictures and not get angry again. An

impressionable young mind, I just did not, at that point in time, think it was

appropriate nor were they ready for it. Now that some of those kids are 15

and 16 now and I can let them watch it and then talk ... let them look at it and

talk to them about it. But a six year old, I just did not want a six year old to

see that because of the atrocities of racism in America. Lynching has always

brought a negative to my mind as well as cosmic anger.

8 51111457vl Ms. Myers Exactly. Lynching is synonymous with a hanging.

Ms. Harvey Right. Right. I recently heard that the word 'picnic' meant "pick-a-nigger

and we'll lynch him," and we'll have a party and we'll bring food and we'll

watch him being lynched. While I don't know whether or not that is in fact

the actual origin of the word, it sounds too real to not be true. Lynching has

always been negative and its always had negative connotations. And it's

always associated with someone who's evil.

Ms. Myers Do you know an eyewitness to a lynching that you know of?

Ms. Harvey To my knowledge no. I talked to my grandfather. He remembered lynchings

but he never witnessed one. I've never had the experience of talking to

anybody about an actual lynching.

Ms. Myers Okay. I'll get in touch with an eye witness.

Ms. Harvey Okay.

Ms. Myers Okay, now, are you aware that . . . Probably [inaudible] Mississippi between

1882 and 1968 had the highest incidents of lynching? Do you know which

state had the least?

Ms. Harvey No, I just know that one that effected me was Mississippi. But I would be

interested.

Ms. Myers Mississippi had 42 whites and 538 blacks which made a total of 581. Arizona

had 31 Whites and no Blacks.

Ms. Harvey That's interesting.

9 51 l l 1457vl Ms. Myers Maine had one white. Delaware had one black. This was taken from a study,

the archives at Tuskegee Institute. It's on the internet.

Ms. Harvey Okay.

Ms. Myers So, we sometime today hear about people so angry with blacks that they're

beginning to swing nooses around.

Ms. Harvey Oh, yes. We have several. I'm associated with several lawyers who represent

workers where they have nooses at workplaces.

Ms. Myers So what is your reaction to that?

Ms. Harvey It's what I tell people: the more things change the more, they stay the same.

And you know history repeats itself.

Ms. Myers Okay. That's grammar school. All these things were happening and now

you're in junior high school where you're supposed to be maturing like any

other junior high school person but I'm getting the feeling that you guys were

little bit different because of your parent's status.

Ms. Harvey Both my parents were always concerned about people who could not defend

or take care of themselves. So consequently, we were raised knowing we had

a responsibility to take care of people who couldn't take care of themselves.

Sometimes I wished I had not been a part of that because we were not taught

limits.

Ms. Myers Okay.

Ms. Harvey I think it's their status but I also think it's their value systems.

10 5ll 11457vl Ms. Myers Okay. Can you recall any fond memories of your junior high school?

Ms. Harvey Fond memories? I recall laughing and having a good time. My fondest

memories were with my animals.

Ms. Myers Animals?

Ms. Harvey My father and I raised pigs. We had an arrangement that I would feed the

pigs every morning and wash out the pig sty. They would be my

responsibility. But when they were sold he would get 75 percent and I would

get 25 percent. But also the feed would come out of my 25 percent. That's

when I really learned how to be a good business person. He would use his

money to buy the food and in exchange for not having any money, any capital,

I would have to do the labor. Later on, I mentioned it to him that I thought it

was not a good deal because if I were not in the partnership, he would have to

pay somebody to take care of the pigs; and he would have to pay them more

than I was getting out of it. We remained partners for about two years. Then

he changed it. I was getting 40 percent and he was getting 60. What I started

doing, instead of buying the feed, I would get the slop from the school

cafeteria. The only catch to that is I would have to carry a slop bucket to

school Monday through Friday and I would have to pick up the slop at the end

of school. Because of that arrangement, I was known as, they would holler

and call me 'slaughter-head, pig-pen, slop-head.' It taught me one of the most

invaluable lessons. It really didn't bother me because I knew that while I

carried the slop buckets, I was saving money so the cost of feed would not

come out of my 40 percent. So it really didn't matter. That just really

11 51111457vl toughened me up. I learned then, I ignored the kids who laughed and

screamed and yelled at me. I ignored them and I walked off because I knew

what the prize was. I was going to save my money. When I went to the

University Law School there were kids that called me 'nigger' and this and

that and I literally went back to the pig-pen days. And I just kept walking.

Now the only difference is that on several occasions instead of just calling me

that, some tried to hit at me or hit me. That was never a part of my

upbringing. I responded in a different way. But in junior high, that's when I

really started getting tough.

Ms. Myers Okay. Was it a physical toughness or more an emotional basis?

Ms. Harvey I think it was all three. I think it was mental, emotional and physical. I knew

what I had to do.

Ms. Myers Okay.

Ms. Harvey Peer pressure has never, ever, bothered me.

Ms. Myers Where were your other sisters during this time?

Ms. Harvey They were pretty much in to it. Because if you lived in my parents' house you

had to have certain values. They were into dancing and you know the usual

things. That's not to say that I wasn't dancing. I could dance and I loved to

dance. Fats Domino. I mean I could get down with everybody. But I was

into fixing my hair, making sure my clothes matched, wearing earrings at that

age, and wearing lipstick at that age. I was up to getting up early in the

morning so I could fix my hair and get my hair braided. I was always

12 51111457vl considered to be more like a tomboy. But I always insisted on being clean and

being organized. Now while they were getting their clothes together, I was

getting my books together. I had probably one of the best organized

notebooks. I remember starting that when I was in junior high. I just hated to

see somebody have their assignment and not know where it was in their

notebook.

Ms. Myers It seems like organization was very important. Did you learn that from your

mother?

Ms. Harvey I learned it from my mother because she was very organized. However, my

father made me become an organized person because I did his organizational

work for him and I helped him keep his work together also. I did his typing

for him. My mother was organized with her Bible and her photographs. My

daddy insisted on being organized like my mother so I helped him.

Ms. Myers So, it sounds like you read a lot. Did you read a lot?

Ms. Harvey I loved to read back then, I remember and I enjoyed working outside. We had

our own garden and we raised sugar cane. I remember working alongside of

my father and I had heard about Gone With the Wind. I must have been in the

ih or 8th grade. We were scheduled to get up Saturday morning around 5am

and get to work, take a break and come in. I got up for work and then

something came over me. I don't know what it was. It told me I was not

going back outside and I was going to read Gone With the Wind. So we had

what we called the 'little den' where when you had company, and your

boyfriends came over, you would go downstairs and sort of be away from

13 51111457vl sisters peeping in at you. I decided that I was going to relax and start on

Margaret Mitchell's book. I don't know how far along I was before Daddy

told to get up and come outside and finish my work. I returned to my work

and every time I got a break, I went back in and read about Scarlett O'Hara

and enjoyed it. So I enjoyed reading. It was like an escape for me. My

mother loved to read. She loved to travel through books. My daddy was not

an avid reader. He read when necessary. But my mother did and I guess I got

that value, that trait, from her.

Ms. Myers Were there some books that you were banned from reading? Such as True

Confessions? Remember those?

Ms. Harvey Yes, I do. My mother told us there were certain books that would not be

allowed in the house. I would get those books from my friends at school. So

I was able to read them, but they were just really not that interesting. They

were funny. You'd laugh about them and you'd say "Oh, I could never do

that." Kissing and all that. I loved to travel and I loved to travel through

books.

Ms. Myers Okay. I know you said your mother liked to read, but I also heard she liked to

write. Is that true?

Ms. Harvey She did. My mother wrote poems. She wrote letters to us and she wrote

plays. She wrote a poem for me that I will share with you. If we were at my

office, I would have a copy of it. When I went to the University in 1967, my

mother really worried. She wrote a poem asking God to take care of me while

I was there. She wrote it on notebook paper in pencil and sent it to me. I used

14 51 l l l457vl to get so mad with whites at that time at the University. I would read her

poem and I really wouldn't let it sink in but it was just like she was talking to

me. When my mother died I went back and read the letters that I had kept

from her which is almost a notebook; and I realized then that it was my

mother who was praying for me to get me through law school because she had

a connection. I said then, I know now, it was God and she wanted him to take

care of her child and He did. (See attachment.)

Ms. Myers So what is your dynan1ics of the family now. You're about ready to approach

high school, so were all the children still at home?

Ms. Harvey Everybody is at home when I'm in the 9th grade. My sister Cheryl who was

born in 1944 was getting ready to go to Tougaloo College. There was a

program called the Accelerated Program. You would take a test either in your

10th or 11th grade year, and if you passed that test, you could skip the 11thand

12th grade and go directly into college. Tougaloo College had such a program.

My older sister, Cheryl, took and passed the test in the 11thgrade. So she

skipped the 12th grade. After her 11th grade year, she went straight into

Tougaloo as a freshman. So she was the first one to leave and she left when

she was 15, I believe.

Ms. Myers How many others took that test?

Ms. Harvey I took the test but my father would not let me go.

Ms. Myers Okay. Do you know why?

15 Sil I 1457vl Ms. Harvey Well, my oldest sister had gone to Tougaloo and had done well the first year.

The second year she had not done well. She decided to stop school. She quit

school.

Ms. Myers Did she go back?

Ms. Harvey No, she joined the Air Force.

Ms. Myers Well, at this time, had you decided on a career? Had you thought about one?

Ms. Harvey Well, I wanted to be a missionary when I was younger. When I got into high

school, I wanted to be a doctor or chemist.

Ms. Myers That kind of sums up junior high. And you're now about to get into high

school. Tell me about your academic progress. How independent were you in

high school? Your studies? Did you have to do homework without being

told?

Ms. Harvey Yes. I always liked to be prepared and it was up to me ....

Ms. Myers We asked about your independence in high school and did you do your

homework without being told?

Ms. Harvey Yes, mam. My homework was part of my pride. I enjoyed knowing the

answers in class and I knew the only way that I could know the answer was to

do my homework and to read up. My father was one of my teachers from ih

grade until I graduated. So obviously, I had to be very well prepared in his

class and know all the answers. He would find out if I was not prepared in the

other classes. I just always got my homework done.

Ms. Myers What was the hardest subject?

16 51 l l 1457vl Ms. Harvey The hardest subject I had? The most difficult ones for me were geometry and

algebra. I just really could not understand the relevance of those subjects to

my life. I had a professor, Mr. Smith, who thought it was foolish of me to

even make that inquiry. So I just learned it because I had to learn it.

Ms. Myers Right. So you said relevant to your life. What life, what are you talking about

now. A career?

Ms. Harvey Okay. Of what importance is geometry to the everyday person? Why would I

need geometry? I asked my father that about fractions because I couldn't

understand fractions when I was in the ih grade and Daddy was my teacher.

He tried to explain it to me and I just couldn't understand. How was it

helping me? And some of the other kids in the class started saying the same

thing. So my daddy had my mother cook sweet potato pies and I didn't know

what was going on, but our house was smelling so good that night. She

cooked about 10 sweet potato pies and we put them in a box and put them in

the back of the car and took them to school. I didn't know they were going to

be used for my class. So when we got to class, two guys got the sweet potato

pies out and put them on daddy's desk and another table. We were learning

fractions in class. The first person he called on was me. He asked me which

was larger, one half or one-eighth? My mind had gone to 8 is always bigger

than 2. So I said one-eighth. He cut the pie, one of the pies, into two pieces.

He then cut the other pie into eight pieces and he asked me that question

again. And I was dumbfounded. I will never, ever, forget that lesson. I know

17 51 l 11457vl now how important fractions are because I love sweet potato pie. But on that

day I got one-eighth and 1/8 was not as big as 1/2.

Ms. Myers Oh, so, you got to eat it?

Ms. Harvey Yes and everybody else in class had an opportunity to say one-half, one-third,

one-fourth. And foolish me, one-eighth. So I had one-eighth of a piece of my

favorite pie and other people who really didn't like sweet potato pie had one­

half. I learned that lesson. That's why when I work with children, young

people, I try to let them understand the relevance of what they're learning to

their lives. My favorite subjects were Social Studies and Mississippi History.

Daddy taught Math and Social Studies. He made Social Studies very

interesting. We had Junior Scholastics publications magazines which were

our own books. We could take them home. They were ours. I just loved to

read. We'd travel. Then he also taught us Mississippi History. He taught us

how to read a map and learn the counties in the State. People thought I was

crazy when I could stand up and tell you every county in Mississippi and

where they were located. He understood why young people really didn't want

to study and learn because it was not relevant. He made everything that he

taught relevant. He was the only teacher that I had that did that. Later on, my

chemistry professor, Dr. Marshall Longmire, started following suit and made

chemistry relevant. He let me know that I had to have chemistry down pat if I

wanted to be a doctor.

18 51 l l 1457vl Ms. Myers Good. So Mississippi History and Social Studies were taught by your father.

Did he stray away or cautiously approach things that had gone on in

Mississippi that were not so positive?

Ms. Harvey He didn't stray away from it. He did not accentuate them, though. The

lynchings and all of that. He covered that but he didn't dwell on it. It was

covered. He stressed the importance of voting and that was most unusual

back then. But he had that as a part of citizenship. He talked about leaders in

Mississippi. We learned about and he mentioned Medgar Evers. We learned

about Mound Bayou. We also learned about the Confederate heroes. We

learned that Black people once picked cotton. We learned Mississippi history

as it was written in our books but we also had some relevance.

Ms. Myers Interesting. We're going to go back to some of those things that you

mentioned that you had learned in another interview. You guys made the

honor rolls, your sisters and you?

Ms. Harvey Not all of my sisters made the honor roll.

Ms. Myers Okay.

Ms. Harvey My oldest sister made the honor roll and I made the honor roll. My other

sister made the honor roll sometimes. She just was not focused on that. And

there were different honor rolls. You had the best honor roll and then you had

the honor roll. Now, the three youngest sisters transferred when Daddy left

Hawkins as teacher and became principal at another school. They left with

him. I was the first in my family to graduate from Hawkins High School

19 51111457vl because my oldest sister did not graduate, she went straight to Tougaloo.

Then my sister Charlotte, right next to me, graduated. I graduated in 1963 and

she graduated in 1964. In 1965 Daddy went to North Scott as principal and

my other three sisters, Cynthia, Clarice and Carolyn, transferred to North

Scott with Daddy. They were on the honor roll at North Scott and they may

have been on the honor roll at Hawkins. They may have been. I know they

got their homework but as far as the honor roll I can't recall.

Ms. Myers What kind of rewards did your parents give you for making the honor roll?

Or punishments for not making it?

Ms. Harvey It was just expected. Daddy would talk favorably about it. There was no

reward for doing what you had to do.

Ms. Myers Right.

Ms. Harvey Now the rewards that I always remember and to this day are still a part of me.

On your birthday you stay in bed as long as you want to, and your other sisters

would have to wait on you. It was good for me because my birthday was in

June when I didn't have to go to school any way. I would stay in bed and

sleep late and if I wanted somebody to bring me some water in bed while

reading a book, they would have to do it. I loved that more than anything

else, but I had a difficult time in getting my ex-husband to fully appreciate

that. I would laugh because Charlotte's birthday was September 22ndand she

had to go to school, but she wanted to get out of going to school. Even though

she would still have to get up and go to school, we would still have to wait on

20 51 l ll457vl her. She'd want you to open the door for her while she's getting in the car.

She'd want you to wash her socks out. So your birthday was "your day."

Ms. Myers So did you carry on that tradition?

Ms. Harvey I do. Now with my daughter on her birthday she can pretty much do what she

wants to do. She doesn't have to get up. She doesn't have to help clean up

the house. On my birthday when I was married I wanted to be pampered

because it's my birthday. That was the most important day in the world

because I was born. That's what my daddy instilled in all of us. Right now I

remember I had to, I was getting ready to do something and the judge said the

trial would be June 18 and I said, "That's my birthday." He said that's mighty

fine. I looked at him and said I usually don't work on my birthday. 'Well

that's between you and your client." Then he laughed about it. It just became

so instinctive; that's 'my birthday.' I guess the rewards that we got for getting

good grades were a thank you and a pat on the back. And that's it.

Ms. Myers Good. Now high school, extracurricular activities. What were some of the

extracurricular activities you were involved in?

Ms. Harvey I was editor of the school newspaper and it was really just like a

mimeographed publication. I was president of the Tri Hi-Y. That was a

Christian organization in the high schools. I was president of the New

Homemakers of America. We learned to sew, cook, and babysit. I was also

president of the District Safety Commission where we encouraged students to

become more aware of safety concerns. I was in the choir and I could sing,

believe it or not. I was second soprano, first alto. I was not in the band

21 5llll457vl because in order to get in the band you had to be able to play the tonette. The

tonette is a small little flute, plastic flute. And if you missed a note, the band

director would pinch your ear. I cannot read music to this day because I had a

problem relating to him. I remember once I missed a note and he got ready to

pinch my ear and I wouldn't let him. I have a fear of pierced ears and I don't'

like anybody playing with my ears. On maybe two or three occasions he tried

and I told him not to pinch my ears. So everybody graduated except me

because I didn't let him pinch my ear. I had my white shirt on and my black

skirt ready to graduate. I could play the notes but I didn't graduate. So, music

just went to the side. I knew I couldn't fight it because I wasn't going to let

him pinch my ear.

Ms. Myers Didn't graduate?

Ms. Harvey You have to complete the tonette section in order to become a part of the

band. The tonette section is just like you're crawling. If you don't complete

tonette, if you don't graduate from the tonette section, you don't get a chance

to go into big band. So I never got a chance to go in a band.

Ms. Myers Didn't have flag girls back then?

Ms. Harvey No, mam. I probably wouldn't gotten flag girl either.

Ms. Myers Do you recall any sports?

Ms. Harvey I had asthma when I was growing up. I tried to run track. I could not last

with basketball because of my asthma. So I was the official scorer for the

22 51111457vl basketball teams, boys and girls. I kept scores. So insofar as sports were

concerned, I just couldn't be a participant because of my health.

Ms. Myers So you guys only played against black schools, right?

Ms. Harvey Only played against black schools.

Ms. Myers Did you wonder why?

Ms. Harvey Well, I knew why. Because we were black and still separate. I understood

that. It was something, that truthfully and for the record, I had no problems in

relating just to my people. Only problem I had was having to pay for

somebody else to have something that I didn't have. Now if my parents were

not taxed or didn't' have to do certain things, and we were all poor, black and

white that would have been alright. Separate but equal. I wouldn't jump and

down about that. Because you had your own schools. You knew who you

were. You had your pride. With what we had back then after integration, we

really didn't have integration. We had assimilation. We lost our black

schools. I know I'm getting off the subject.

Ms. Myers No, your fine. You're fine.

Ms. Harvey But, I had no problems with going to school with only black kids. I had no

problems at all because I realized then my potential. Other young blacks my

age understood their potential because we had black instructors who told us

you can be whatever you want to be.

Ms. Myers Right.

23 51111457vl Ms. Harvey There was nobody that was treated any differently because we were all black

and we basically were all poor. We all had raggedy books. We all had toilets

that were about to fall in. We all had chairs that had somebody else's name

written on them. So we were all poor and it gave me strength. Despite what

you ate for breakfast, you can look forward to lunch ... together.

Ms. Myers Alright. Did you have the same best friend in high school as you had in

middle school?

Ms. Harvey Yes. Vernal Williams and Bobbie Jean Harris.

Ms. Myers Okay.

Ms. Harvey I had other friends but we could always laugh and I could always rely on

them.

Ms. Myers Okay. Do you want to share something, trouble, that you and your friends got

in to that you can remember?

Ms. Harvey I probably tried to purposely forget some of the stuff. Generally, I would get

in trouble for fighting boys. I would get in trouble sometimes for playing the

dozen, that's when you talk about somebody's mama or daddy. There was

one guy who liked to talk about my father and his one hand; and he would get

up in class and walked like my Daddy -- he'd have his hand held like it was

artificial and mock my Daddy. I remember once he got on my nerve and he

was saying something crazy and I said "your mama wears gasoline drawers."

We fought. When he sees me now, he says, "I told you my mama didn't wear

gasoline drawers." Now when people hear that, they don't understand we had

24 51111457vl 'mama jokes' back then. 'Mama jokes' are funny now but they were really

funny then. Right now people will still remember gasoline drawers and for

people who don't know that means underwear. Things like that and also

talking about boys, courting and having secret crushes on guys.

Ms. Myers Right. Now, girls nowadays are so well developed and they were not in your

days. So, you know what friends did. They stuffed their bras, and ...

Ms. Harvey Yes, yes, yes. Well, I've never had to do that. Vernal did it. Even Bobby­

Jean may have had to do it for a while. But boys were more in to pretty legs

then.

Ms. Myers How about color with boys at that time?

Ms. Harvey I think boys, as I recall, were more into brown-skinned girls. Girls were more

into dark-skinned boys. I know that the dark-skinned boys have always been

a preference for me. My daddy was dark-skinned. My mama was light

skinned. I used to laugh about it and tell people, woo my mama is so light and

my daddy would come back and say "so are you." We were into color. I

won't say that that didn't matter. But there were some people who liked light

skinned girls who were almost white. I knew the girls that were most popular

were pretty girls and were generally brown-skinned. Some were black and

then there were some who were light-skinned. But I don't remember that ever

being a priority, a preference for any of the guys that I ran with, and I had a lot

of guys who were my friends. Good friends.

25 5llll457vl Ms. Myers Okay. Now you are really, really, really into high school and you graduated

in high school in 1964?

Ms. Harvey 1963.

Ms. Myers 1963.

Ms. Harvey Yes, mam.

Ms. Myers And that meant you're a product of the 60s.

Ms. Harvey Yes, mam.

Ms. Myers So we ought to talk about some things that happened in the 60s that you may

or may not remember but you're probably old enough now. The 60s, how do

you define the 60s?

Ms. Harvey In my experiences, it would be a time when people were made aware of

reality and chose to do something about it.

Ms. Myers Okay. Society refers to it as a culture revolution. Do you agree with that

definition?

Ms. Harvey Yes, most definitely.

Ms. Myers Synonymous with rebellion? Can you think of rebellionist?

Ms. Harvey I put it all together because you became aware of reality and you were not

happy and you tried to change it.

Ms. Myers Okay.

Ms. Harvey That's what we did. I think I was more aware of it before that. I think in my

own way I tried to change it without being disruptive. In the 60s, it was okay

26 51 l l 1457vl to be disruptive. So it was perfect for me. I could do things that you'd never

thought about doing before.

Ms. Myers I'm going to give you some topics and let you discuss. The first one is Ruby

Bridges case where Ruby Bridges integrated an all white public school in the

9th Ward in New Orleans. Do you remember that?

Ms. Harvey I remember it in retrospect. As far as remembering it then I vaguely

remember. I've read the book and I have a picture of her in the library and in

my office. It just shows you what you can do when you've had enough and

what your parents can do when they've had enough.

Ms. Myers Okay. Do you remember the Bay of Pigs?

Ms. Harvey Yes, mam.

Ms. Myers Would you care to tell us about that?

Ms. Harvey I always had respect and admiration for President Kennedy.

Ms. Myers Right.

Ms. Harvey When the Bay of Pigs occurred, the news in the South was so negative for

him, for the President. It was not until I went to Cuba two years ago that I

fully appreciated and understood the gravity of that crisis.

Ms. Myers Okay.

Ms. Harvey That's why I try to encourage young people to travel because we've heard so

many distortions and we've heard that Cuba is such a bad place. We heard

that America was trying to save America and therefore we had the fiasco in

27 51111457vl Cuba. You go to Cuba you hear that but you also hear another story which

also makes sense. You look at Havana. You look at it and you talk to people

who'll say that America used Cuba as a playpen for the rich because whites

would come to Cuba and do whatever they wanted to Cuban women and

Cuban men because Havana belonged to America. During the time that

Batista was in power I understood and I heard this from more than one person

of different ideological backgrounds, is that the Americans would not let

Batista come into their buildings and that they had his own men to arrest him.

Now that may or may not be true. But Fidel Castro was not that kind of

person. I said all that to say that "Bay of Pigs" was confusing.

Ms. Myers They had us thinking it had everything to do with communism when I was in

school.

Ms. Harvey Exactly. Exactly. And that's what I'm saying. The confusion. Communism

is present in Cuba, but you listen to them and you listen to the people you

meet on the street who'll tell you that there was an embargo. The Cubans

were told we're going to kill every one of you because nobody is going to

give you any food. That was the result of the Bay of Pigs. What happened is

that Russia and other countries said we'll give you the food. Venezuela. Now

you go to Cuba you see so much Chinese stuff. Chinese are building little

parks, play parks for children.

Ms. Myers Right, right.

Ms. Harvey But, if you look at it and be very objective, and that's not to say that I'm not

pro-American. I'm pro-truth. You look at it and you talk to people and you

28 51111457vl read. You read the books that we write here in America. Its two sides to

every story. What we happen to get is the side that we want to conditionally

write.

Ms. Myers Exactly.

Ms. Harvey So, Bay of Pigs, back then, yeah I was scared of Russians and Communism.

Ms. Myers ?

Ms. Harvey Yeah, everything.

Ms. Myers Now, also in 1961 John F. Kennedy was elected as President.

Ms. Harvey Yes, man.

Ms. Myers And that had .... See, all of this was building on the 60s. All of this unrest is

like a hot pot boiling on the stove.

Ms. Harvey Right, right.

Ms. Myers In 1962 during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Now, in 1962, Governor Barnett

barred James Meredith from the University of Mississippi. Do you remember

that well?

Ms. Harvey I remember like it was yesterday. I remember my fear that all elected officials

were crazy.

Ms. Myers You were at Tougaloo at the time, right?

Ms. Harvey No, I was getting ready to go. That was 1962.

Ms. Myers Right.

29 51111457vl Ms. Harvey I went to Tougaloo the summer of 1963. I was a junior then. I was very much

into what was happening around me then. I remember Daddy and I were

talking about it. It was like you realized that the people in charge of the

direction of the state and your future, were ill, were sick. It got to the point

where it made you mad just to hear them talk. The Governor of Mississippi,

just made me mad and turned me off with his cruel and hateful words. There

were some men who would not take that kind of treatment and you had to be

the right kind of person to be the sacrificial lamb. I realized then that James

was a strong man. He demanded and received my respect. Even to this day, I

know him personally. My ex-husband was in service with him. He's still a

strong man. I disagree sometimes with his philosophical positions and his

political positions but he has earned the right to do whatever he wants to do.

He's earned the right to say whatever he wants to say. This is America. Any

man that would go to the University of Mississippi with armed guards to get

there is a courageous man who has my respect.

Ms. Myers Okay. Could you safely say that by 1962 the Civil Rights Movement was

about to really take off then?

Ms. Harvey Already in motion.

Ms. Myers Oh, okay.

Ms. Harvey That's when we had the sit-ins in Jackson. You had your sit-ins in South

Carolina. In fact, SNCC, the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee is

1 having its 40 h anniversary in North Carolina today and tomorrow. My

30 51111457vl daughter's employer, Hollis Watkins, well, her supervisor, Hollis Watkins, is

there celebrating SNCC.

Ms. Myers Okay. So were you involved in that in any way?

Ms. Harvey I was involved in SNCC at a later point. I really became involved in the

movement actually when I left home. I left home in 1963 after I graduated

from high school.

Ms. Myers The 60s gave Blacks a pathway to use violence because there was a lot of

violence going on during that time.

Ms. Harvey There was a lot of violence in the context in which the word 'violence' is

used. There was no more violence used by Black people than there was

violence used by whites against Blacks. To lynch. To kill. To destroy, to

frighten. The Klan was about killing people because you disagreed with them

or what they wanted to do. Black folks were coming on the scene and taking

the position that I'm not going to permit you to walk over me. If you come

into my house and kick my door down, I might shoot you. That's nothing

unusual. It's strange that Black people would say that, but whites have been

doing that all the time. Back then you were led to believe that that's violent

but you look at what's happening now. People going to school, killing each

other. White folks dragging Black people through the streets in this day and

age. Down the streets of Jasper, TX. So I'm saying violence is American and

it's unfortunate.

31 5llll457vl Ms. Myers This is 1967, and the Vietnam War was in full swing. In fact, in 1967 the

American troops were increased to 475,000. Now, can you talk about things,

how they felt, especially Blacks at that time about the war?

Ms. Harvey And that was in 1967?

Ms. Myers Uh-hum.

Ms. Harvey That was the year that I graduated from college and that was the year I went to

the University Law School. That was the year that I really learned what it

meant to be responsible for my own actions. I was president of the student

body at Tougaloo College. I received a call from students at Jackson State

because a Black man had been killed at Jackson State. The president of the

Student Body at Jackson State asked us to come and help out. We went out to

help him, the police put a curfew out and said that if we were not off the

streets by 6:00pm we'd be arrested. So I had to find a way to get the students

back to campus. I returned to the campus and asked permission to use a bus. I

explained the situation and they said "No." So Bennie Thompson who's now

Congressman Thompson, and I went back to the campus~ I asked him to take a

bus without permission so we could get the students back to the campus

safely. He did it. On our return, I refused to stop the bus for fear the students

would be expelled. As a result of that action I was not permitted to march,

even though I'd already completed all my hours. I think I had more hours

than needed to graduate. I'd already been accepted at the University. I was

accepted in October, 1966. Even though I hadn't graduated I had enough

hours. That was the year that will always be remembered. The students

32 5ll l 1457vl decided, in reaction to this sanction, they were going to close the gate and the

gate had never been closed since Tougaloo was opened.

Ms. Myers Okay.

Ms. Harvey Students were threatening to burn the buildings and everything. I stayed up

four nights straight with no sleep. It just reached the point where I was just

exhausted. Reporters from Life and Look Magazine came to Tougaloo and

wanted me to talk about the campus and criticize the administration. I

couldn't do it. It was at that time I started crying. I just couldn't stop. They

took me to the hospital. I woke up several days later at my parents' home.

The president indicated they were not going to permit me to march. It meant a

lot to my parents that I march. It didn't mean anything to me; marching was

symbolic. That summer I went to Poukeepsie, NY at Camp Tri-Woody as a

camp counselor. The experience was rewarding and just what I needed.

I went from one situation where I was so disappointed by a Black man,

Tougaloo College president of the college, to a situation where I was

disappointed by a Catholic parishioner. I had become Catholic in 1966.

When I went to the University in 1967 I went to mass so that I could try to

stay focused. This man and his children came and sat next to me and he told

them to get up. He didn't want them sitting next me. I realized then the

Catholic faith was part of the problem, too. I never went back to church while

I was in law school. Maybe 15 years later I went back to the campus and went

back to the church and I just still could not find peace there. Maybe 25 years

33 5llll457vl later I went back to the church and there was a Black priest. I just thought

about how ironic that was. That Black priest now is my priest in Forest.

So the Vietnam War was best symbolized by Muhammad Ali when he refused to go to the

Vietnam War. What he told the press was that "the Viet Cong never called

me a nigger so why do I want to kill them?" At that time and right now I

agree with him. I feel the same way about the war that Bush started. It was a

war that he had to start in order to get attention off of what he wanted to do. I

tend to think that all wars can be avoided. That War was really, really so

unfortunate with the young lives that were lost and the young Black men who

lost their lives. Physically, mentally and spiritually. Those guys who still

suffer now with post traumatic stress disorder. It really bothers me. But I

always say there are so many things in life that are not fair and war is one of

them.

Ms. Myers How did your dad feel? What did your dad say?

Ms. Harvey Daddy didn't like war. He thought it was so wrong for so many young Black

boys who were going overseas to fight. And I think he agreed, well, he

admired Muhammad Ali, so he agreed with him.

Ms. Myers Didn't Bennie Thompson take that same stand?

Ms. Harvey Bennie was about to be drafted. I remember representing him. He refused to

go but then he took his test and he couldn't pass.

34 5llll457vl Ms. Myers Now, still talking about the Vietnam War and how unpopular it was, until I

read about it, there were not nearly as many Black men killed in the war as we

thought.

Ms. Harvey I didn't know that statistic, but I do know that the number of Black men going

to war from Mississippi was greater than the white men going from

Mississippi. If I'm .in error, I stand to be corrected. But it seemed to me every

Black boy who was able to pick up a gun or walk was being drafted and the

white boys were still here. If that's an error then it speaks for itself. My

recollection was that it was a war that was unfair and that the Vietnam people

had done nothing to us. Secondly the Black people who were discriminated

against here in America were being forced to go over and defend a country

that would not honor them at home as human beings.

Ms. Myers And also, we didn't know anything about being conscientious objectors.

Ms. Harvey Exactly.

Ms. Myers So that was a disservice to us.

Ms. Harvey Exactly.

Ms. Myers It was unfortunate.

Ms. Harvey What Muhammad Ali did and that's the thing that was so beautiful, he missed

years of his adult life and became a greater man in my book. In fact I still call

him now, "the Greatest."

Ms. Myers What was Martin Luther King's take on the war that you remember?

35 51 l l 1457vl Ms. Harvey He thought it was unfair. He thought the war was unfair and he was right. He

thought that the whites in the North were as guilty of racism as whites in the

South in the area of and the housing and all that. When he was fighting down

in the South and dealing with racism, his life was threatened. But when he

started talking about fights in the North and talking about the Vietnam War, it

was at that point that he became a danger to America and he was killed.

Ms. Myers And was referred to as a Communist.

Ms. Harvey Exactly.

Ms. Myers It goes back to the Communist.

Ms. Harvey Exactly. Exactly. When America can't deal with you, you're a Communist.

Ms. Myers Now what year did the march on Washington happen?

Ms. Harvey It was 1962 or 1963.

Ms. Myers And what was that all about?

Ms. Harvey Poor people coming together and calling on Congress to make this country

live up to its promises to all of us.

Ms. Myers Okay.

Ms. Harvey It was really just to be like a SCLC (Southern Christian Leadership

Conference), SNCC, NAACP and other leaders coming together to bring

attention to the plight of Black people in America and poor people generally.

Ms. Myers Okay. That was in August of 1963?

Ms. Harvey 63, right.

36 5l l l 1457vl Ms. Myers And they say there were 250,000 people in Lincoln Memorial?

Ms. Harvey Exactly.

Ms. Myers Was it just ironic that it was at the Lincoln Memorial?

Ms. Harvey I think that was part of the plan that it be at the Lincoln Memorial. Nobody

envisioned there would be that many people. Remember in the 60's, people

were reaching a point where it was 'do or die.' The organizations that were

behind the March in Washington actually encouraged membership

participation and people were taking wagons, buses and trains. You know, we

were not into planes that much and driving cars. It was just a pilgrimage to

Washington for Justice.

Ms. Myers Did you go?

Ms. Harvey I did not go. I was at the Pre Science Program at Tougaloo. Probably would

have gone had I not ... I don't know. I'm not that much of a person who can

relate well to crowds and marches.

Ms. Myers Okay.

Ms. Harvey I generally stay away from crowds esp~cially when there's no real game plan.

Ms. Myers March on Washington, do you think the media added to it being so

successful?

Ms. Harvey Probably.

Ms. Myers Okay.

37 51111457vl Ms. Harvey I don't think the media expected it to be that many people. I just think people

were absolutely amazed that Black people would tum out in numbers like that.

There are a lot of things you have to remember. Medgar had been killed in

June of that year. There were a lot of people who were still upset by that.

Still reeling from that. 1963 was a very, very powerful and potent year. One

that I' 11never forget. 1963. 1966 when Malcolm was killed and 1968 when

Dr. King and Bobby Kennedy were killed. 1963, of course being, the year of

the assassinations of Medgar and President John F. Kennedy. Those years

really had an impact on my life.

Ms. Myers Okay, now you're remembering all those years and you're exactly right

because I have it on paper. How and why is it because you're attorney, or was

it just such an impact on your life?

Ms. Harvey I always can say what I was doing on those days and where I was almost to

the T. I know I was at Tougaloo and I had just been influenced by Medgar's,

he was my idol. He was about to push my father out of first place in my life

as a man. I know that I'd settled at Tougaloo on campus when I heard that

President Kennedy had been assassinated. I remember going to the chapel

because when anything bad happened, you went to the chapel. I remember

crying and falling on the floor and just really, I took it so badly. And those

things really really shook my life. Then I remember that I was at Jameson

Hall when Malcolm was assassinated. That really hurt my heart. Then at the

University dealing with racism everyday and the day that Dr. King was killed,

I was in the library getting ready to go up to Memphis. We had gone the night

38 5Illl457vl before. I had to come back and I wanted to get my homework and then go

back. The next morning I had physical fights with white guys who were

laughing. I remember watching Bobby Kennedy at the Ambassador Hotel on

TV in my dorm (law school). I remember that. I was so happy because he

won the California primary, and thinking this guy is going be the next

president. Those are moments I will never forget. I compare these tragedies

to the deaths of Mama and Daddy. And those are years and those are

impressions that burn in my memory.

Ms. Myers You were in law school at the University of Mississippi?

Ms. Harvey Yes.

Ms. Myers And who was your roommate?

Ms. Harvey My roommate was N ausead Stewart for a while. She and I came at the same

time. And she was a teacher who had taught 20 years. She had gotten tired of

teaching and she couldn't deal with the double standards. She was extremely

brilliant and she was my roommate for a year. She was Black. She was older

and she believed in studying 24/7. I did not study 2_4/7. I'd get my homework

and I'd do my work at the Law School Library (student worker) and at North

MS Rural Legal Services (intern). I had to be busy cause if I sat down and

thought about where I was or what I had to do, I probably would have left.

Ms. Myers Well how many Blacks were there?

Ms. Harvey There were three Black women in my class and there were five Black men in

my class. There were three other Black men who were a year ahead of us ..

39 51 I I 1457vl Unlike them, I went to summer school. Because I said that if I ever left I

wasn't coming back. I just didn't like it at all. But I learned to tolerate it

because there was so many who didn't want me to make it and a lot of times

that gives me an extra push. People said I was going to flunk out or get put

out, but I hung in there.

Ms. Myers So who paid your way to law school up there?

Ms. Harvey I received scholarships and grants. I didn't pay a dime, in fact I earned some

money because cause I had good grades at Tougaloo. I received assistance

from the NAACP Inc. Fund, and I got the John W Davis Scholarship.

Ms. Myers Did you apply for this money?

Ms. Harvey No. The thing about it was that I was the first Black person to be accepted

from Tougaloo. It was the connections that I had and people knew of my

commitment, ability and courage.

Ms. Myers You said in 1968 when Dr. Martin Luther King was assassinated and James

Earl Ray confessed, even though it's been said that was conspiracy, what are

your feelings about that?

Ms. Harvey I think it was a government conspiracy.

Ms. Myers Okay.

Ms. Harvey And I think the later revelations about J. Edgar Hoover confirm any

suspicions. I also think that the Kennedy assassination was a government

conspiracy. And I think that the Bobby Kennedy assassination was

40 51111457vl government inspired and the assassination of Malcolm X was also government

inspired.

Ms. Myers You mentioned two of the Kennedys and in 1968 Ted Kennedy drives his car

and the scandal behind that. Is there a myth about the Kennedy?

Ms. Harvey No, I don't think it's a myth. I think people who are raised and reared to

make this a better world are targets. John Kennedy became a president who

was going to have a different agenda for America. Those people who didn't

want a different agenda were in governments' hierarchy and they decided that

he had to go. Now his brother comes into law and embraces a similar kind of

philosophy, he too has to go. Now it doesn't mean that you know you're a

Kennedy and you are automatically doomed. You look at what happened to

Ted Kennedy -- it messed him up a little bit but he rose again. And the only

thing that took him out, he died a natural death. Kennedy men are men. They

are men with core values and men who didn't have to do what they did. They

were wealthy enough they could have done like most wealthy white men in

America. They take care of themselves. They chose not to help others. Ted

Kennedy died worrying about health benefits for poor people.

Ms. Myers At one time when all the other organizations were thriving there was also one

locally called the RNA - Republican Republic of New Africa. Do you

remember that?

Ms. Harvey Yes ma'am. I was appointed by Judge Nixon to represent Anne Lockhart and

her Republic of New African name (RNA) was Tamu Sana which means

'very sweet.' Tamu was arrested because she was in the house on Lewis

41 Sllll457vl Street in Jackson, MS where the RNA government provincial center was

headquartered. Tamu's husband was Thomas Norman (Hakim) and he was

there. She was there with him when the shootings occurred. FBI agents and

Jackson police officers went to the house on Lewis Street to allegedly serve a

warrant. During the time, it was revealed they intended to attack and kill.

Instead, a police officer, William Skinner, was killed and an FBI agent James

Stringer was injured. All the occupants in the house were arrested and

indicted and charged with murder or conspiracy to murder. I was appointed to

represent Tamu Sana, Anne Lockhart and the trial was held in Biloxi,

Mississippi. It was almost a trial. My client, was found guilty even though

there was no proof that she did anything. The only reason she was there was

because of her husband. I won that case after an appeal to the Fifth Circuit.

Just the idea that Black people would talk about demanding from this country

several states as reparation was shocking to many. It was just intriguing to

me.

Ms. Myers Everything changed, even the music on the radio. Remember the song "War,"

what is it good for? Freda Payne's "Bring the Boys Home" and others. She

was blackballed. Do you feel that that would happen today?

Ms. Harvey I think the Dixie Chicks showed that it happened when they were critical of

Bush. Their following totally disowned them but they survived and they rose

again.

Ms. Myers Now what year was the Kent State incident?

Ms. Harvey Kent State would be 40 years this May.

42 51111457vl Ms. Myers Do you recall the march from Salem to Montgomery and why was it so

important?

Ms. Harvey All of that sort of runs together in my mind. Dogs and water hoses being

turned on innocent people -- the Voting Rights Act and other behaviors and

consequences including injuries and deaths.

Ms. Myers With all of these things going on, how was that shaping you in your career at

this moment in your life?

Ms. Harvey .... working with Fannie Lou Hamer in 1964, when she was running for United

States Congress. I remember working for Mrs. Emma Sanders who was

running for the United States House of Representatives; she was running

against John Bell Williams, who later became Governor of Mississippi, Mrs.

Hamer, as I recall, was running against Jamie Whitten, who was probably one

of the longest serving Representatives in the House of Representatives. Those

experiences prepared me to be able to challenged elections .... they were

challenging but I learned quite a bit from those experiences.

Ms. Myers Thank you. Attending Tougaloo College was not an option for you? Or was

it?

Ms. Harvey It was not an option. My great-grandmother attended Daniel Hand School,

my grandmother attended and graduated from Tougaloo High School; my

father attended and graduated from Tougaloo College.

Ms. Myers Okay. Were there other colleges you considered?

43 51111457vl Ms. Harvey I had considered Howard University, but I was not mentally prepared at that

time to leave home. I graduated from Hawkins High School in May, 1963 and

the following June, I participated in the National Science Pre-Med Program at

Tougaloo College. That pretty much took care of my desire to go anywhere

else. I fell in love with Tougaloo.

Ms. Myers Now was it acceptable for women or black women to go into the military at

that time?

Ms. Harvey It was not popular. My oldest sister left Tougaloo College and joined the Air

Force. That really hurt my parents but they went ahead and signed for her to

go. It was most unusual for a black female to be in the armed services,

especially for us. It was like she was going to another world.

Ms. Myers You mentioned earlier that you had a desire at one time to be a missionary.

How did attending college make you change those plans?

Ms. Harvey Well, I went to Tougaloo wanting to help through the practice of medicine. I

wanted to be a doctor because I realized that if I wanted to be a missionary, I

would have to leave the country. So I went to Tougaloo College in the pre­

med program.

Ms. Myers I've never heard you talk about not having enough money and those kinds of

things. How was your college expense paid?

Ms. Harvey My college expenses, as with my law school expenses, were paid with

scholarships and with work study.

Ms. Myers Work study. Where did you work?

44 51111457vl Ms. Harvey At Tougaloo, I was administrative assistant to the pre-law advisor, Dr. Joe

Huang and I worked in his office.

Ms. Myers What were some of your responsibilities?

Ms. Harvey I maintained his filing system. I took dictation because I could type. My

father taught me to type even though he had one hand. He taught me to type

when I was eight and I've been typing since then so I was an excellent typist.

I could help him read certain books and do summaries of those books for him.

Ms. Myers Other than school and education, what were some of your main interests.

Ms. Harvey I was interested in writing; not with any rules. I just liked to write and write.

I just loved to do that. I loved to travel. If I could not physically travel, I

loved to read about travels to other countries. I enjoyed playing cards, as did

most college students. Quite a few kids would play cards and when they were

tired, they would have to try to complete their assignment. I got my

assignments first and then I played cards and I enjoyed playing cards. I enjoy

playing cards to this day.

Ms. Myers So it sounds like a philosophy that you would like to pass on to other students.

Ms. Harvey Do class and then when you're tired, you can either go to sleep or you can

relax, chill out and move on but the major responsibilities should be addressed

when you're sober and when your mind is not exhausted.

Ms. Myers Were you beginning to make new friends or different kinds of friends at this

time?

Ms. Harvey Not really. I've always been very selective about my friends. I have quite a

few acquaintances but insofar as friends or having friends, I had sorority

45 5llll457vl sisters, I had fraternity brothers and I had individuals who associated with me

in political science and pre-law programs. I had different contacts, colleagues,

and acquaintances but my friendships were still very limited.

Ms. Myers Okay. What sorority did you join and do feel that sororities and fraternities

are positive or are they necessary?

Ms. Harvey My older sister went to Tougaloo and she wanted to be a Delta -- Delta Sigma

Theta Sorority and she made excellent grades. She just did not complete that

challenge. When I went to Tougaloo everyone assumed that I would be a

Delta because my sister was a Pyramid and I looked at the sororities and I saw

that the Deltas were about having projects that empowered black people. For

instance, instead of doing things that I thought were very foolish and childish,

the Deltas required those that wanted to be Deltas to go out and register

voters. That really, really attracted me. And there was this white girl who

was a Delta and I was confused because I thought Delta was a black sorority

but there was a white girl named Joan Trumpauer. Joan was one of the girls

who participated in the sit-ins at Woolworths and she was beaten and jailed. I

was very fond of Joan. In fact, I just fell in love with Joan and another one

that I fell in love with was Dora Latner. Dora too was one of the "Sit-In

Sisters" women and they were very, very discouraged by the injustices in

Mississippi. Delta Sigma Theta Sorority was so positive for my growth. Now

there were other organizations there that were not as positive as the Deltas so

I saw many people lose sight of their own individuality when they pledged

sororities and fraternities. It never has happened to me because I tried to

46 51111457vl change the focus of the sorority by encouraging people to do something

constructive as opposed to something I considered to be very trivial and

unproductive. I think the mission is positive. I think sororities are plus but if

young people join sororities to party and be accepted, I think it's very much a

negative.

Ms. Myers Yeah, I heard you mention marches. There were many marches in Jackson

during that time. What was your level of participation other than voter

registration?

Ms. Harvey I participated in several marches but I have always taken the position that I

was nonviolent; still am nonviolent and most of the marches then, you had to

pledge that if someone hit you or someone spat upon you, you would keep

moving. I never was able to give that pledge. I just did not ... I was

caught. .. you don't ask for a fight and if you have to sometimes run away from

a fight, but never let anyone walk or run over you and I knew that if I marched

and someone tried to spit on me, I would have to take them out. You know,

we'd have to go down. Then I was not a nonviolent person; I was full of

anger and if someone had touched me, it would have been too bad for one of

us. I try to persuade people to stay back and don't bother me but I just know

that there's so much pain built up in my soul that I try to stay away from

certain situations and I try to practice the Prayer of Serenity.

Ms. Myers Now, how successful do you feel you are in accepting the things you cannot

change?

47 5llll457vl Ms. Harvey I think the older I get, I'm better at accepting things I cannot change. It just

depends on .... when I was young, if I couldn't change it, I would die trying

and by dying, I mean physically, mentally and spiritually, I would die trying.

Now, I raise the problem and try to get other people to address those problems

without me tackling it head on and I'm fairly confident that the political

situation that used to keep me up in arms .. .I look at them and I tell my

daughter, there used to be a time when I would just be downright disgusted;

now at times, I'm just downright amused.

Ms. Myers You mention voting rights and we mention it several times ... are these voting

rights for people in general or were you very aware of the limitations that

women had at that time.

Ms. Harvey I was not really concerned about the fact that I was a woman; I was very much

concerned with the fact that black people had been denied the right to vote and

that was my main focus at that time. It still remains my main focus but during

the early 70's, right after I got out of law school, I became part of the

Women's Action Alliance (WAA) out of New York and I worked with Glor1a

Steinem, Marlo Thomas, Shirley Chisolm, and we were on the W AA board. I

understood then that there were two swords to my anger and I'd never dealt

with both of them; I just dealt with one. I realized then that women, too, were

very much discriminated against and as a result, I became very active in the

women's movement. What I never forgot was the pain that went with

discrimination because of my color.

Ms. Myers Any particular discrimination that just tore at you?

48 5ll l 1457vl Ms. Harvey Before I got out of law school, there were so many instances at the law school

where I knew I was being discriminated against because I was black. It's just

too numerous to even speak about it; in fact, I worked 40 years to try to forget

that.

Ms. Myers We're going to talk about that when we talk about law school so remember

those things.

Ms. Harvey Good plan.

Ms. Myers One of the things I mention (was how) you like voting. Can you recall a

defining moment or an incident that happened while you were out in the

voter's registration participation?

Ms. Harvey Yes. While I was at the University and during the presidential election, I went

to Marshall County (Byhalia) with two white guys who were my associates,

Tommy Mayfield and Tom Royals. Tommy and I were stationed at a polling

place about 25 miles from Byhalia, which was a very rural area. We were

very assertive poll watchers for Hubert Humphry. We were so involved in our

work that we forgot the Klan. The polls closed at 7:00 and we had to wait

until the poll closed and be there to make certain that the ballots were counted

properly. It took a long time because of the hand ballots. It was about a

quarter to twelve and it dawned on us that we were in the middle of nowhere,

stone rural rednecks, for the lack of a better word. When we got ready to

leave, we had all kinds of exchanges. Tommy had a red convertible and as we

got in the car, we looked ahead and there were hooded white sheet Klansmen

in the middle of the road. And I remember thinking, "I had to come all the

49 5llll457vl way up here, 25 miles from nowhere to be killed." When I think of it now,

my heart actually skipped beats. Tommy put the car in some kind of gear that

was abnormal; it was not drive, it was something else and he drove straight

toward the men and then as he got closer to them, he veered to the right and

took the ditch. I knew then that we were dead. It seems to me like hours that

we rode on the should of the road. I just closed my eyes and thought I'd be in

heaven. When I opened my eyes, we were back on the road and I looked

behind to see the Klansmen standing there. I just almost passed out. I guess

when I think about it now, it makes me so uncomfortable, I'm almost

speechless. That was the first time I actually thought that I was going to

heaven so of all of the experiences that I've had, that's the one that I won't

ever forget.

Ms. Myers What happened to the men that was with you?

Ms. Harvey They later became District Attorneys. They graduated from law school; both

were a grade ahead of me and we remain friends over these years.

Ms. Myers What was it like to be the first woman at Tougaloo College to be President of

the Student Government?

Ms. Harvey It was pretty much normal for me. I never ever thought about the fact that I

was a woman. It never dawned on me. I guess it's because of the way I was

raised. There were six girls; we all had our specific personalities but I always

felt that I had to carry a load. And if anyone wanted to mess my sisters, I felt

that I was there to take care of it. I was always heavier than any of my sisters

and I was pretty much considered a tomboy because I ran with my father. We

50 51111457vl were very close and I liked the farm and that whole thing so it never really

mattered, I never really thought about it. I know I had a friend tell me once

that "you're just one of the boys." It was different because I could tell how

some people who were members of the College Administration reacted to me

being President but it never really mattered. I was qualified for the position

and I enjoyed the challenge.

Ms. Myers So can I safely say that it was not a statement, it was more of a testament of

your leadership abilities?

Ms. Harvey Being modest, I would say yes.

Ms. Myers Okay. You were in college when Martin Luther King made his famous March

from Selma to Montgomery. What were you doing and how did this impact

Tougaloo College?

Ms. Harvey I was into it but my function, I thought, was to get good grades and to be

supportive of the movement, not to necessarily be an active participant. So

the first couple of years, I was very supportive; I made signs, I did everything

but as far as actually marching, I did not do that. I was Editor-in-chief of the

Tougaloo College Annual Yearbook, I was President ofmy sorority, I was

President of Pre-Law Society, I was President of the Pre-Alumni Society and I

just had so many things that kept me so busy, very busy. So I tried not to get

intimately involved insofar as being an active participant in the movement my

first couple of years at Tougaloo. I got my grades. When I got my grades, I

got my reputation for being a serious, diligent student, a very serious-minded

51 511 l l457vl student. Then I had more time to be flexible with the marriage of academics

and the social challenges.

Ms. Myers Okay, so what part did you play in making signs or whatever from James

Meredith's March from Memphis, Tennessee to Canton/Jackson, Mississippi?

Ms. Harvey I was involved in a part of that March but I definitely did not go all the way to

Memphis and march to Canton. I recall I was in a part of that March. It was

fun!

Ms. Myers Okay. Meredith said it was not a March; he said it was a March against Fear.

Fear of what, do you know?

Ms. Harvey When he was shot, the childish act of shooting him was intended to frighten

others and discontinue the March. He developed the March against fear and

back in those days, the vast majority of black people were afraid to stand up to

the system for fear of reprisal and/or death. So it was in that setting and that

environment that he chose to bring to the consciousness of everybody the fear

factor. Some people did not know the reason they did not march was because

they were so afraid. When he used his March against Fear, to some people he

thought that could have been a challenge to them and I think it did open some

eyes.

Ms. Myers Tougaloo College was a private college; a radical college. Is there anything

else that we need to know about Tougaloo College?

Ms. Harvey Tougaloo College, at the time that I was there and the time that my parents

were there, was a college of excellence, first and foremost. If you graduated

from Tougaloo College, you knew how to talk, you knew how to write, you

52 51111457vl knew how to pray, you were very much at home in a museum, in Mississippi,

in Rome, or in Paris. You were a very well-rounded individual and for that I

appreciate my parents insisting that I graduate from Tougaloo. And it then

became an institution where everybody was treated equally and all races and

all creeds and all colors were welcomed there. Because of that reputation, it

was a threat to the southern Mississippi way of life.

Ms. Myers Is it still that way?

Ms. Harvey I would say probably not as much and that's unfortunate. I taught at Tougaloo

College for 35 years as a Pre-Law Advisor. I volunteered and I noticed that

the emphasis was not necessarily on the excellence that I thought Tougaloo

had. I was a member of the Board of Trustees and I had some concerns about

the direction of the College -- it had been modified or adjusted.

Ms. Myers You graduated cum laude. Was that intentionally and did you work at that or

did it just happen naturally?

Ms. Harvey Well, I made a choice my junior year that I would continue to get my

assignments and do my work but that I wanted to bring about some

meaningful changes into our student body. I was editor of the yearbook. For

the first time in the history of the college, we had color pictures and that

caused the administration a little heartburn because they had set aside just so

much money for the budget. When I wanted to do color pictures, the budget

was blown to pieces. So the choice we made, we dedicated the yearbook that

year to the President of the college and we had a beautiful color picture of

President and Mrs. Owens, so naturally he was going to make the necessary

53 51 l l 1457vl adjustments in order to have his picture in color. So that was really my focus.

I wanted to take care of academics but at that point in time, I knew that I could

do it so it was really not that much of a challenge.

Ms. Myers Okay. Now how excited were your parents that you graduated cum laude?

Ms. Harvey Well, my daddy thought that I could have been number one in the class and I

could have had I decided that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to have honors

but also have involvement in leadership positions and also to do something to

change the social climate. You know, I could read books all day ... I could

have easily done it. My mother was very pleased but my daddy would always

issue a challenge. If I made 99, he was concerned that I didn't make 100 and

he wanted to know why. And that pretty much gave me a perfect incentive to

always do my very best.

Ms. Myers At this point in life, were you settled where your career was going or what

direction in life you'd be taking?

Ms. Harvey I believe I wanted to bring about change but my senior year, I really wanted to

pursue a career in international relations and I think that lasted for about 5 or 6

months. After my involvement at Jackson State in May, I changed the focus.

But let me back up. In September 1966, I was recruited by Mike Horowitz to

attend the University of Mississippi School of Law and I got a scholarship. I

was really not certain that I wanted to go but I got scholarships, scholarships,

scholarships. And I was leaning in that direction so I was accepted at the

University in October 1966 and I had 6 months to go before I finished

Tougaloo.

54 5llll457vl Ms. Myers Can you recall any personal incidents that affected you at Tougaloo during

graduation or any time?

Ms. Harvey The incident involving students at Jackson State in May of 1967 where the

President of the student body at Jackson State, Hermel Johnson, called and

requested the assistance of Tougaloo college students. He was my frat brother

(Omega) and I was a Delta. When he called, I knew that he needed help so I

asked some of the white professors to let us use their vehicles or to take us

into Jackson and to Jackson State. After we arrived at Jackson State, the

police chief set up a curfew which caused us to have to be off the street at

6:00. We had no way of getting back to campus by 6:00 because we had

come in shuttles/shifts so I asked Bennie Thompson who was the bus driver,

who is now a Congressman, if he would accompany me as well as another

young man, Richard Moman who had a vehicle. All three of us went back to

campus. I asked permission to use the bus. I was told I could not by the

Director of Physical Plant. Bennie had a key so we used the bus without

authorization and I authorized him to use it as President of the Student Body.

We went back to Jackson and got the students, came back, came onto the

campus. There was a gate and you had to go through the gate in order to get

onto the campus. The President was standing there at the gate and demanded

that we get off. I got off and he said he wanted the other students to get off

and I told them not to get off. I got back on the bus and he saw that Bennie

was driving the bus. I told Bennie to hit it; he stepped on it. We drove around

to the back of the campus where it was dark, no lighting. All the students

55 51111457vl were able to get off the bus without being identified. The next morning,

Bennie and I were summoned to come to the President's office. We went and

were advised that we had committed serious infractions. I was tried by the

student judiciary and they were encouraged to say that I should be expelled.

Instead, they said I should be suspended. Graduation was a week away so I

appeared before the Faculty Committee. The Faculty Committee voted to

uphold the students with the exception of Dean (Chaplain) Dick Johnson who

is still at Tougaloo College. He also taught my daughter. Then there was

Dean Hoffman ... both of these are white men. The blacks on the committee

voted to stick with the student recommendation and there were some

adjustments made. I was told that I could graduate but I could not march.

The irony of it was that I had already been accepted into law school and I

didn't need any hours. They could not keep me from graduating because I

had the hours but the most they could do was to keep me from marching.

That really hurt my mother but it didn't hurt me. I didn't have any problems

with it and I think I wrote a letter. I really don't like to recall all that but I

recall writing a letter to the President, at my father's insistence, advising that

whatever was good for Tougaloo at that time, I would accept it and I don't

believe I challenged the system by appealing the decision to the Board of

Trustees.

Ms. Myers So this is some of the pain that you say you have locked up inside of you?

Ms. Harvey That's a lot of it; quite a bit of it. But that coupled with the pain that was

caused by experiences at the University of Mississippi School of Law and the

56 51111457vl pain associated with the deaths of students at Jackson State and the treatment

by so-called black leadership in Jackson, really has caused me some pain.

And then the practice of how I was treated shortly after I got out of law school

for several years, being referred to as a "nigger" by a judge, L.B. Parton.

That's the pain; all of that is bottled up.

Ms. Myers Okay. So I think at some point, it might come out.

Ms. Harvey It will have to.

Ms. Myers We mentioned the incident at Jackson State University in May of 1970. Can

you recall what happened?

Ms. Harvey Forty years ago today, two black students -- one was a junior at Jackson State

from Ripley Mississippi. His name was Philip Gibbs. And James Earl Green

who was an eighteen year old high school student from Jim Hill in Jackson.

James Earl was on his way home from work and he crossed the campus -­

there was a shortcut -- he crossed the campus. Both men were killed by

Highway Patrolmen and/or Jackson Police Officers during a barrage of

gunfire that the court termed in every instance to be 'unjustified'. They were

killed and twelve other students were injured. I filed a lawsuit representing

the families and the students, Myrtle Green Burton vs. John Bell Williams

(502 F.2d 1261 (5th Circuit, 1974). He was the governor of Mississippi at that

time and he was technically in charge of the Highway Patrolmen and the

National Guard. Russell Davis was mayor and he was in charge of the police.

There was a federal grand jury that was convened and there was a state grand

jury -- Hinds County grand jury -- that was convened. The Hinds County

57 51 l 11457vl grand jury came back with no bills which meant nobody was indicted. The

federal grand jury came back with no bills but the judge (Harold Cox) who

gave the charge to the federal grand jury said that anybody who would have

been a bystander should not have expected not to have been killed or injured.

That was the same judge that referred to black people as chimpanzees and

buzzards. He was the judge who didn't want to swear me in until I changed

clothes and came back wearing clothes that he considered to be decent. When

he presented my certificate to practice, he told me he better not catch me in a

juke joint as he knew that I would be. He wouldn't want me to have that

certificate in a juke joint. I could not come back and say anything to him.

The Jackson State massacre, as I've always called it, was very, very painful

and a lot of the pain that I feel now comes from the injustices, not only of the

deaths, but for the lack of justice in that case.

Ms. Myers Okay. I was the PBX operator on duty that night at the Jackson State

University Center and I couldn't get off campus because the girl who was

supposed to take over couldn't get on campus and it was very, very tragic and

I certainly, I guess I feel the pain too because Green and I went to the same

church and we had to witness his mother's pain. She just couldn't understand

it so I can imagine how this must have bothered you. Did that help you to

really want to pursue law to its fullest after that incident?

Ms. Harvey Well, that incident occurred after I had graduated from law school. I

graduated January 28, 1970. The murders occurred May 14, 1970 today -- 40

years ago. I believed that justice would prevail if I kept my head in the

58 5llll457vl lawsuit and consequently, I did. I kept my head and I let lawyers come in

from New York -- one of the biggest law firms and one of the best law firms

in the world -- Cravath, Swaine and Moore -- they came in and I pretty much,

after a lot of fighting, just told them that if you can prepare this case and win

it, I'll take back seat. I had to plead with the parent, Mrs. Burton and the

widow, Dale Gibbs and the clients to let somebody else handle the case

because we were talking to all white jurors so I learned a lot. Truthfully,

that's pain for another day.

Ms. Myers A lot of that extended from protests about the Vietnam War in addition to all

the social injustices, Julian Bond was denied a seat in Georgia's legislature for

opposing the Vietnam war. How did you feel about that?

Ms. Harvey I was very much opposed to the War. I think I always looked at Mohammed

Ali -- he is my idol, he's my hero -- and I remember when they drafted him,

he refused to go and he was even taller than when he refused to go. He put his

prize -- the championship -- on the line because of his convictions and for

that, I' 11always respect him but his comment when they told him he had to go

to Vietnam, was "Why should I go to a country where the people look like me

and none of them have ever called me a nigger." I think that pretty much

summed it up for me. Why go to a country, why invade a country, when

they've not mistreated us? As with all wars, it was so political, so political.

My first boyfriend went to Vietnam and he's never been the same. My ex­

husband was in Vietnam. He's never been the same. War just destroyed the

lives of so many men. At that time, mostly Black men being drafted. When

59 51 l ll457vl they came back, they were still being treated like second class citizens. My

father lost his hand in the service and on his way back from the hospital -­

Battle Creek, Michigan -- he had to get up and give his seat to a white woman

and there were other seats that were on the bus. So you look at the many

indignities that we've had to suffer and survive and then we're called on to

fight for a country that would deny us our full citizenship? It's very ironic.

And God is good that I came as a woman because I wouldn't have gone. I

would not have fought for a country that treated me like I was a fourth class

citizen. I could not have done it in good faith.

Ms. Myers Now after Tougaloo College, you went to law school. What year did you

enter the University of Mississippi? Before the end, did you go to school

between Tougaloo and the University of Mississippi.

Ms. Harvey No, Ma'am, because in 1967 remember May 1970, that was when I was

denied an opportunity to march. Dr. Ernst Borinski, a German judge who had

come to Tougaloo and dedicated his life to the Tougaloo college family. He

was like my mentor and when the Administration would not let me march, Dr.

Borinski was very, very, very upset. He said that while they would not let me

march, he would prepare me for law school which was real funny cause he

was a little short man and spoke 'zozo' and he didn't speak English that well

but you knew what he was saying. He had that German accent and he forced

me to read nothing but law books for two weeks straight. Then in order for

me to get rest as he called it, I went to Camp Tri Woody which is in

Poughkeepsie, NY and I was a camp counselor there. So the stress that I had

60 5llll457vl been under for the problems at Tougaloo, the students closed the campus for

about a week after the Administration said I could not graduate. So I had been

under a tremendous amount of stress and had not been able to rest so going to

Tri Woody was really one of the best retreats (mentally, physically and

spiritually) that I could have had. When I came back, I went straight to the

University following a good rest period. I was very well relaxed when I

entered the University Law School in August.

Ms. Myers It was during the Vietnam War that the media became so popular. So did the

media handle your situation at all?

Ms. Harvey No, not at all. It was uneventful. There were three mall black law students

before me who had graduated so it was nothing unusual.

Ms. Myers So what year did you enter the University of Mississippi?

Ms. Harvey I entered the University of Mississippi in 1967, three months after I graduated

from Tougaloo College.

Ms. Myers Now, this is after James Meredith had attended. Did you consult him about

your decision to go there?

Ms. Harvey I didn't consult anybody. I initially wanted to go to Howard and Vanderbilt

Law School but when I kept thinking that my parents were paying taxes to

support the University so why should I go somewhere else? Secondly, if I

graduated from the University of Mississippi School of Law back then, I did

not have to take the Bar exam and that's why you had the majority of white

students going to the University. Once you graduated, you were automatically

a lawyer. Maybe six or seven years later, they switched that and everybody

61 51 l 11457vl had to take the bar exam. The rumor is they changed that because there were

so many black folks getting out of the University and not having to take the

Bar.

Ms. Myers Your first week at the University, can you recall the admitting process?

Ms. Harvey I know that I had to get in line and the lines were very long compared to the

registration lines at Tougaloo. I recall my roommate, we stayed in the

graduate dorm called Ricks Hall which was like three buildings down from

Farley Hall which was the name of the Law School then. I enjoyed my

roommate -- her company and companionship -- her name was Nausead

Stewart -- and Nausead was fourteen years older than I was. She was a former

home economics and English teacher in Starkville. She was a graduate of

Tougaloo College so we had that in common and she was very quiet and kept

to herself very much. I remember the relationship that we established then.

She was my maid of honor in my wedding and she's my daughter's

godmother. I recall the first week Nausead coming into my life. Then I recall

the stairs that I later became accustomed to, and the first couple of days in

class, I felt quite unwelcomed. I recall having met a white male law student

that I would encounter until he graduated. He had a habit of getting on the

sidewalk and if he saw somebody black coming, he would stand and walk in

the middle of the sidewalk and expect a black person to get out of his way. I

never got out of his way so we bumped a couple of times.

Ms. Myers This was still during your radical years.

Ms. Harvey Radical, yes, yes.

62 51111457vl Ms. Myers So you were not escorted to school? You just went like a normal student?

Ms. Harvey No, I was not escorted because there were three black male students who had

enrolled a year before we did and they had made the adjustment and so I was

not afraid. I just wanted to go to law school and that was the closest law

school for me to attend where I wouldn't have to take the Bar.

Ms. Myers So that was the determinant factor you going to the University of Mississippi,

not taking the Bar and close.

Ms. Harvey Being close to home and also I wanted to practice law in Mississippi so what

better place to go to law school the the University of Mississippi where the

guys that I would be practicing against would attend. I would learn exactly

what. they learned. I would know what they knew.

Ms. Myers Where else in Mississippi was there a decent law school to attend?

Ms. Harvey There was the Jackson School of Law and it was a nice school at that time. It

was not accredited. You would have to take the Bar if you graduated from

that school. The university was the only accredited law school.

Ms. Myers Okay. Where were your parents during this time and what advice were they

giving you? How did they feel about you going to the University of

Mississippi?

Ms. Harvey My mother did not want me to go. She prayed for me every night and I could

feel her prayers. She wrote a poem for me that I keep on my desk. I look at it

now and I say, but for Mama and God and her connections with God, I would

probably not have made it.

Ms. Myers Do you think she would have felt differently had you been a male? A son?

63 5llll457vl Ms. Harvey I don't really think so. I think she was just concerned that her child was at the

University and James Meredith had been there and that there was quite a bit of

hostility remaining at the University. The people here in Forest were afraid to

talk to me .. .it was a mission to Vietnam or somewhere. They were afraid to

talk to ... they just didn't treat my parents ... they would not say, we're proud of

Connie .. they would ask "Is she still up there"? It was a challenge that's never

been done. It was a lot of pressure on my parents.

Ms. Myers Okay, so this takes us all the way back to prejudices, it takes us back to the

Jim Crow laws. Years and years before then, there had been a group of laws

called Black Codes that restricted marriages, property and going to

school. .. do you think this is why the people still felt that way? Were these

blacks or whites mistreating your parents?

Ms. Harvey Some black people were afraid to be associated with me because I was

perceived by the white power structure as being a troublemaker -- only

because I wanted to go to the University and I went. It was not the norm.

And having known my background, I was already perceived as a

troublemaker. When I came home from Tougaloo, I refused to get a bus ticket

from the back of the bus station. I went into the white area. The owner was

furious. He said he was going to call Daddy. By the time Daddy got there, I

was on the bus. We were pulling out and little did he know that Daddy would

not have told me, "Don't go in the white section." Daddy would have told

me, "Let's go, I'm proud of you" or something to that affect. But I think he

knew that. My father was a principal and I don't think he really knew that

64 511 l 1457vl Daddy would probably have grabbed him as opposed to chastising me for

doing that. Black folks were afraid and whites were angry. My father was the

kind of person who never permitted us to work for anybody white. He

wouldn't permit my mother to even think about it. And that was unusual.

Everybody's mama worked for somebody white, indirectly or directly. Mama

didn't. Daddy said his girls nor his wife to work in anybody's kitchen. He

had a kitchen and he had land and if we needed a job and wanted to work, we

would work in our own house and work in our own fields/gardens. That

attitude has taken me a long way and become a part of me to this day.

Ms. Myers So you took all this with you to the University of Mississippi?

Ms. Harvey Yes Ma'am.

Ms. Myers Do you think that has a lot to do with how you survived?

Ms. Harvey It did. I remember now and I talked about this on several interviews, I

remember when my father and I had this business where we raised pigs

together. It was my job to feed the pigs and I was to get a certain percentage.

I fed the pigs but then he announced to me that the feed had to come out of my

share. So I thought about getting slop from the school cafeteria which meant

that that would be free and there would be no need for him to get any feed

money out of my share. I could have my money. So the arrangement was that

I would have to carry the slop bucket to school every day and pick it up every

evening. Our school was a nice school and it had a gymnasium that was built

high and I would walk from the parking lot to the cafeteria. Students would

open up the windows and yell "pig pen, slaughter head, slaughter bucket,

65 51 l l 1457vl bucket head." My sisters would not want to do me a favor. They didn't want

to walk with me so I walked by myself and I got to the point where it didn't

· even bother me, I didn't even hear it and during the summer, when we were

outside instead of being in the gym, they stopped calling me anything. So

people expected to see me coming with the slop bucket. I naturally tuned

them out so when I went to the University, they were calling me a nigger, "I

smell a nigger," I tuned it out unless I wanted to hear it. So I tuned it out; I

walked tall. So it got to the point where it didn't bother me, they stopped

doing it; it was a waste of their time. There was this one guy who took it

further. He wanted to have some physical contact. That's when we got it on.

But that upbringing helped me survive and it's helped me to this day to not

lose my mind. That's why I think it's so important. That's why I love to

work with young children, when they're 2 and 3. It thrills my soul to be able

to have this library where we work with the children. You get a young man

and you steer him in the right direction, the challenges of life will be fairly

simple.

Ms. Myers At this time, the legal profession was predominantly male?

Ms. Harvey Yes, male and white.

Ms. Myers So you were a black female at a time when it was not popular. Did this assist

you in becoming a female in the legal profession, knowing that it was black,

knowing that it was male. Knowing these things, did that even make you

more determined?

66 51 l l 1457vl Ms. Harvey Yes. As I said earlier and I've said this throughout my legal career, it just

slapped me in the face that I was a female...... a ton of bricks hit me and I

realized that I was a woman and that sometimes the discrimination that

resulted from me walking into a courtroom and being treated differently had

to do with me being a black woman. I was able to do things I don't think a

black man could have done and I was able to take certain positions because of

my sex and race.

Ms. Myers Do you agree or disagree that race is the primary determinate of a human's

ability and capability?

Ms. Harvey: I would have to disagree with that on a conditional basis. In another person's

eyes, race may be a primary factor regarding their treatment or impressions of

you, but I strongly believe and have always believed that we are all created

equal. When we come from our mother's womb, we are all equal. What

happens from that time until we go to school is very important. What we're

introduced to in our environment, our health, all of that is so crucial to our

journey as we travel on this earth. I strongly believe that the sooner you get to

a child and introduce him to life, values, religion, and education, the better it

is for the child and it begins to shape her life. The system determined what

professions we could enter right? You never had a lawyer because the system

controlled who became a lawyer. When you look at the legal field, black

folks couldn't get a chance to even get involved in that other than as

defendants. So the practice of law back then was something that was just

taboo. You were either a defendant, you might have been a witness and that

67 51 l 11457vl would be an unusual circumstance because nobody took the black man's word

for anything. Or you cleaned up the courthouse. So the legal profession back

then was just something that was .... you were just not an active participant in

that system.

Ms. Myers But aren't blacks expected to perform better in their jobs than a white

counterpart?

Ms. Harvey We are expected to perform better and that's a problem because I always tell

young people that you have to be twice as good and sometimes that still won't

get you in the door. We say that and we truly believe that because we know

reality. We know what is expected but we have always had to be, even with

. each other, we've always had to be better and as women, we have to be five

times as sharp as a black man and 220 times as sharp as a white man. Society

has those silent rules and those silent codes but Black people are intuitive and

we know and we can sense so we pretty much know the odds that we're up

against. When I say that, I'm referring now to Black folks who are 40, 50 and

60. Ifwe don't know the system and society, then we should know. Young

people coming along now, don't know because nobody has taught them. They

don't even know their history, our history, so they have no earthly idea as to

what white folks or the system, and I use them interchangeably, would do

when pressed or pushed up against the wall. So I say that being black in

America, being black in Mississippi when I was coming along, was a

challenge.

68 5 l l ll457vl Ms. Myers Jesse Jackson always says your attitude determines your altitude. React to

that statement.

Ms. Harvey I think it's a matter of rhyming. He loves to rhyme. I have nothing against

that. 'Your attitude determines your altitude.' I could agree with that and I

could disagree with it. Your attitude could affect how far you go in life, that

but if you are in an environment where there's quite a bit of hostility to black

people, especially black people who perceive that they have a pretty good idea

of what this world is about, that could be a negative. You could be arrogant

and if you're arrogant, you'll never make it. Muhammed Ali was an

exception. He knew he was good and he was. His arrogance and fight may

have saved his life.

Ms. Myers Did Bennie Thompson take that same stand?

Ms. Harvey Bennie took a stand where he was not going to the service. I represented him

with the Local Draft Board. He was not going and we were blessed because

when he took his physical, he was not fit. But he was very much opposed to

the draft because the draft was used to discriminate against black boys. Black

boys were drafted. White boys, their parents were part of a clique, were not

drafted and that made it unfair. Unless you were there during those times, you

cannot even imagine the amount of discrimination that existed and that's why

I don't try to convince people that there is a reason why some African

Americans, my age, will never trust the system. So you would have had to

have been there in order to fully emphasize with individuals who are

discouraged out of the system.

69 5llll457vl Ms. Myers Okay. Let's back up to race being a primary determinant. I hear you saying

that it's interwoven, it plays a part but it certainly does not act as a primary

determinant of your abilities and capabilities. With that in mind, talk about

blacks in sports.

Ms. Harvey Well, young black men are encouraged to develop their talents. And for

whatever reason, most people believe that black people can play basketball

better than whites and run the football better than whites. Nobody ever

thought that black people could take a golf ball and excel at that game. Nor

did anybody believe that black folks could excel with a little white ball going

over a net. And that's because the system determines our usefulness. Black

people can run a football at any expense and jeopardize their health by getting

hurt. For instance, Chuckie Mullen at the University School of Law broke his

neck on a football field. Now, several other young black boys have been

permanently injured or killed playing football for white football teams or

traditionally white schools. When I think of football, I often think of Johnny

Vaugat who was coach at the University of Mississippi when I was there. He

said a 'negro' would never play football for him and did none. He understood

that black boys could play football; but not at the University of Mississippi

that he dearly called "Ole Miss." Some people assume that it doesn't take

much to run a football. You don't have to have good sense; you don't have to

be quick. As I recall, the quarterback was the guy with the brains. He was the

coach on the field and he had to be quick. Many people thought that black

people could run a ball fast but couldn't keep plays in their head. Just like

70 51111457vl Tiger Woods. Society has determined there are certain sports for black

people. And only those sports. Black folks can box. It wasn't until

Mohammed Ali came along that the sport was looked at as something

requiring skill. This man not only can box, he can think. He talks funny and

he's making millions of dollars by making fools out of individuals who

thought he was crazy. Society has placed certain demand and expectations on

sports. Black folks can play certain sports because they don't take too much

brain and thinking. I have problems with black people being perceived as

being fit only for sports. In high schools with our integrated school system

now, young black boys are encouraged to go into sports; and an afterthought

is preparing them academically. I resent that. I encourage the young men

who were participants in the Slaughter Memorial Foundation, to excel in all

walks of life by preparing themselves academically. If and when their bodies

are permanently injured or wounded, if that's all they know, then they are at

the back of the line and will have to start all over. I encourage them to

"prepare themselves academically and athletically. Our motto at the Slaughter

Library is "Prepare yourselves academically, spiritually and physically." My

parents believed in preparation. My father was a coach -- coached basketball,

football, track for girls and boys, and he always told his boys and girls to get

your homework before you do your stretching -- and I think that got into my

system -- to get my homework before I started partying and having a good

time.

Ms. Myers Connie, why is it that blacks didn't swim?

71 5llll457vl Ms. Harvey Well, I know when it was time for us to learn to swim, I was like 10, 11, 12, at

public places they would not let us swim and in Forest, they had a place called

Kat's Kave (that's real close to Klu Klux Klan) and they closed it and filled

the pool with sand to keep us from swimming so I never learned to swim. We

used to visit my grandparents and they had a swimming hole. I just saw

several snakes in there and I just viewed it from a distance. During the time

we were teenagers, the public accommodations were closed rather than

integrate.

Ms. Myers The theory is our hair will not allow us to swim.

Ms. Harvey I'm told that. I'm also seeing white girls who do not want to swim because of

their hair. They would wear their little swimming caps but now that you say

that, I've heard that. I just know that when I got ready to swim, the public

pools were closed.

Ms. Myers I think later on, they thought it was our body structure. But I go along with

the hair theory. It's a real commitment.

Ms. Harvey [Laughing] That makes sense.

Ms. Myers Remember in the '70s we had what we called "token blacks." Are you

familiar with those?

Ms. Harvey Yes Ma'am.

Ms. Myers Do you want to tell us about those?

Ms. Harvey Well, we had blacks who were selected by the power structure to be black

during work hours and do whatever while wanted to do after work hours. We

also referred to some of those individuals as the spook who set by the door.

72 5l l l 1457vl You would have a black person there for show only. He or she would be

hired for show only. Their function was not to participate in policy making or

to assist in doing any meaningful job but just to be seen.

Ms. Myers Yeah. Another thing that we found in the 70s was that integration was hiring

high-yellow Blacks. It was OK, we'll hire blacks but they were not black, the

color was very light.

Ms. Harvey And they lacked a black experience or they wanted to forget the fact that they

were black. I've often taken the position that, and I tell this to my students

now, that if you're born black, you'll always be black. I am not always aware

of the fact that I'm a woman. When I go into the courtroom now, the fact that

I'm a woman and the fact that I'm black, I let it get in my head only when it

seems to me that somebody else is aware of it and maybe using that as a

negative but I know how to counter that. No longer do I walk around with my

blackness on one arm and my gender on the other arm. I don't do that.

Ms. Myers Okay. Let's go back to the University of Mississippi. You lived in Ricks

Hall. Did all blacks live in Ricks Hall?

Ms. Harvey No Ma'am. There were three blacks in Ricks Hall. Naused Stewart, .

Geraldine Harrington, and me. The others were white women. There may

have been two individuals who were from Malaysia and/or Japan.

Ms. Myers So the three of you were the only blacks there?

Ms. Harvey Right. And there was another graduate dorm -- I think there were two black

women in that dorm.

Ms. Myers Did you ever visit?

73 5l l l 1457vl Ms. Harvey Well those of us who were in the dorm, we didn't have much time the first

semester to visit talk. We studied.

Ms. Myers Was there a black coalition formed intentionally or unintentionally?

Ms. Harvey My first year. .. maybe the second semester, we had a black student union and

it was made up of the undergraduate black students and some of the graduate

black students. But I was very much a part of the black student union even

though I was a law student.

Ms. Myers Weekends. Did you remain on campus or did you go home? What did you do

on weekends?

Ms. Harvey Never went home. I went home at Christmas but I always said if I went home,

I would never come back.

Ms. Myers Oh.

Ms. Harvey On weekends, I worked at the library where I was a library assistant and at

North MS Rural Legal Services generally studied on weekends. Then, there

were some weekends after my freshman year where I went to parties off

campus and I went to Holly Springs in Marsahll county. MS Industrial

College was located there. 'MTI had a basketball and a football team. Since I

was 21 then I could identify with college students.

Ms. Myers So on campus, were you invited to join any social organizations or academic

organizations?

Ms. Harvey No. In fact I tried to join some but there were none where membership was

open, my application was lost with a law school fraternity.

Ms. Myers Okay. Do you think if you applied today, would your application get lost.

74 5llll457vl Ms. Harvey I don't think so. Because it's financially beneficial. When I was leaving, it

was more beneficial financially to the University to try to recruit black law

students. If I've got to guess, the main reason I was recruited was my race

and affirmative action money. The guy that recruited me later became an

individual I could not identify with - he became so conservative and the very

causes he stood for when he recruited me - he fought against them. It's like

he made a 100% turnaround.

Ms. Myers So you were in Law School on Pell Grants or scholarships?

Ms. Harvey They were not called Pell Grants back then. They were called National

Student Defense Loans. They were loans. I never received a grant, I got

scholarships - Ford Foundation, NAACP, and Herbert Lehman scholarship. I

got a small scholarship from the Masonic Order here in Mississippi. Later on,

I was on the work study program at the University. That's why it was

beneficial for me to work. When I was in law school, I saved money.

Ms. Myers So at any point did you feel accepted at the school?

Ms. Harvey No.

Ms. Myers What gave you that impression?

Ms. Harvey I never felt like I was really wanted. I never felt that I was welcomed. I was

tolerated but never welcomed at the University.

Ms. Myers So what did you wear to class?

Ms. Harvey I wore pants. I may have owned two or three dresses. If it were a special

occasion, I wore a dress. That was my first year. My second year, I became

75 5llll457vl much more aware of the fact that I looked okay in dresses and I started

wearing dresses. My senior year, I was wearing dresses to class.

Ms. Myers What were the whites wearing?

Ms. Harvey There were maybe four white women at the most in our classes. They would

wear dresses. At the University I was wearing pants and the other women

were wearing dresses. When I got out of Law School and started practicing, I

wore pants once and the judge told me not to wear them anymore in his court,

and I didn't until four or five years later. I made it permissible for women to

wear pants in court. Some judges would tell me not to wear pants and I

wouldn't wear them in his court. One judge told me that if you want to win a

jury, you wear what women wear; women don't wear pants. The juries were

all white and all men so it really didn't matter. As long as I wore an Afro, it

really didn't matter.

Ms. Myers That was going to be my next question. In school, how did you wear your

hair?

Ms. Harvey At the University, I would switch it. Sometimes I would wear a very short

Afro. Back then, I liked Afros onwomen who were naturally beautiful and I

never perceived myself as being beautiful to the extent I could be comfortable

in an Afro so when I graduated, I had a permanent. I had thick bangs and my

hair was very short in the back. When I looked at my graduation picture, I got

tickled. When I got out of law school, maybe two or three years later, I

started to wear a curl which was a prelude to an Afro. About 20 years ago, a

white judge asked me what happened to my hair. He said you just didn't get a

76 5I ll 1457vl chance to go to the beauty shop? I said, "I won't be going to the beauty show

until the Lord calls me home." We laughed. And then maybe a couple of

years later, he said, "You know what, that really becomes you." It tickled me

because I really didn't care whether he liked it or not. Mississippians are still

not accustomed to women wearing Afros or naturals and I've taken the

position, as I did when I was carrying the slop buckets, that's not my problem.

Ms. Myers As a race, we have a problem with that also.

Ms. Harvey Certainly.

Ms. Myers You mention the word beautiful as defined by society long before James

Brown came out with 'I'm Black and I'm Proud.' So at that time when you

said you didn't consider yourself beautiful, what was your definition of

beautiful?

Ms. Harvey Older black women. I've never used white standards for beauty. I've always

taken the position and I'm convinced that "The blacker the berry, the sweeter

the juice." The guys that I've dated and my ex-husband were chocolate and

black. I just had some concerns about my experiences with individuals who

were light-skinned, who expressed their acceptance by the system because

they were 'high yellow' and had 'good hair'. Unfortunately, some black

people during the time that I was coming along, adopted that mentality and

expected to be treated a certain way because of their color. That's why I'm so

glad Chris Rock made the "Good Hair". Most Black people, during my time

believed if you had curly hair, you had good hair.

Ms. Myers At the University of Mississippi, where did you sit in class?

Ms. Harvey I generally sat toward the front.

77 5 l ll 1457vl Ms. Myers And why did you choose that spot?

Ms. Harvey Because historically the back had been reserved for black people.

Ms. Myers Okay. Were you called upon more or less in class?

Ms. Harvey There was one class -- a Contracts Law class -- and the professor was Harry

Case. I would raise my hand and he would never recognize me. That was my

first year and when he wanted me to talk, he would say "anybody", and I

would be so glad to talk because I wanted to be corrected if I were incorrect in

my logic. He would look around and nobody else's hand was up, he would

say "anybody." And I would just start talking. I thought about the insanity of

that. Sometimes I would be called upon when some of the instructors thought

that I was not prepared. Maybe on one occasion I may not have been prepared

but I was able to articulate my position. I was called upon probably as

frequently in some instances as other law students. Nobody really wanted to

be called upon.

Ms. Myers Did you find that your instructors expected more or less from you?

Ms. Harvey I never thought of it in that light. I always thought that they ... I remember

once one of the first classes I had, it was a Legal Bibliography class,

everybody had to take it. All first year. There were maybe 150 students in

that class and it was the largest class we ever had. We were seated in

alphabetical order so you had no choice where you sat. I remember in that

class, there was this guy who sat next to me and his name obviously started

with an S because my name is Slaughter. He would tum his back

intentionally to me. That's the same guy who told his children not.to sit next

78 5llll457vl to me in Catholic Church. In that class, we took exams. After grading the

exam papers, the professor called the papers out by the grades, so the first

name called was highest and I was number three. After I received my graded

exam, the guy who had turned his back to me, turned around and started

smiling. I assumed he was letting me know he was going to copy off my

paper from then on. What I did was tum my back to him.

When I became Assistant Secretary of State, he came into the

office seeking assistance. He was just outdone; he didn't know how to act but

I was so nice to him.

Ms. Myers So was there ever a time you needed to tum an assignment in late?

Ms. Harvey No, you very seldom had assignments; you had to brief your cases. When I

reached my third year, we had research and project papers. My second year,

we started with papers and I did very good with the papers; I did a lot of

research. That's when I met Bobby Kennedy. I once did a paper on poverty

in Tchula and met him there. The class was Rural Legal Problems. I got an A

on that paper.

Ms. Myers So did you ever work in groups?

Ms. Harvey We had moot court and we had to have a partner. Hermel Johnson was my

partner. Back then, we didn't work in groups. Now with the young students

that I mentor at the University, the Black Law Students Association (named in

my honor - Constance Slaughter Harvey Chapter), they work in pairs. It's

much better for them. We didn't work in pairs.

79 5ll l 1457vl Ms. Myers I understand how your teachers/instructors treated you; what about other staff

members such as cafeteria workers or custodians? Did anybody befriend you

-- black or white?

Ms. Harvey There were some I enjoyed being around. The assistant librarian, his name

escapes me now, was good to me. In addition, I enjoyed being around some

of the individuals who were custodians in Ricks Hall. They were black. The

guy in the library was white. Then there was a gentlemen who was a personal

assistant to Chief Justice Etheridge who taught Legal Professions. Judge

Etheridge came up once a week on Wednesday nights and taught legal ethics.

That was my third year. Judge Etheridge was in a wheelchair and his assistant

was Mr. Cotten. I looked forward to Wednesday nights so we could talk he

could give me advice Small world ... , I later learned that Mr. Cotten was your

uncle. When Mr. Cotten passed, many lawyers expressed their sympathy. We

always said that Mr. Cotten was the reason that Judge Etheridge was a person

as opposed to a judge. Mr. Cotten and I had a good lasting relationship.

Ms. Myers Okay and that was Jesse David Cotten, I remember Judge Etheridge also.

After you graduated and left that world, was there anything that you wanted to

take with you that you had learned other than through books?

Ms. Harvey Judge Etheridge taught me much about the practice. One thing that stuck out

in my mind and I'll always remember and I consider it to be one of the

hallmarks of a good lawyer. When you are arguing a case and you are talking

to appellate judges, you look at the judges as people, as opposed to judges.

He always said you get eye contact with the judges. Don't drop your head

80 51 l ll457vl when you're talking to them; look at them the same way you would look at

the jury. And I had been out of law school less than six months and I had to

argue a case before the Mississippi Supreme Court -- Judge Etheridge was on

that court but he was not on that panel -- and I remembered what he said.

Even though it was extremely difficult, I looked each one of those judges in

their eyes, never dropped my head. Fortunately, they reversed the conviction

and I always wanted to believe that it was because I followed his advice and I

looked them head on. I think now, in retrospect, that it was reversed because

the state didn't prove its case, but you never know what caused them to

reverse the decision. So Judge Etheridge taught me a lot. I also learned that

you always give it the best you have, and if you're not prepared, don't go to

trial. So I've always taken that advice. Forty-two years ago I learned that and

it has become a part of me. If I'm not prepared before I go to sleep, either I

will get prepared or in the morning I won't try the case.

Ms. Myers Now we're also talking about emotionally and physically prepared. Were you

into exercise then or yoga?

Ms. Harvey Not then. I was into meditation, transcendental meditation and that helped

me. But there came a time when I was not into transcendental meditation and

I just had real serious issues with my health. I worked so hard that I

developed psychosomatic asthma. When I got out of law school, I worked

long long hours. I didn't drive a vehicle, so I would get a taxi and get to work

at 6: 15 every morning except Sunday and the taxi driver would pick me up at

12:00 that night. I made a pact with God that if you let me out oflaw school

81 51111457vl without hurting somebody, that I would do all I could to help the students at

Tougaloo and to change the system. I kept my end of the bargain as God had

permitted me to graduate. Within six months, I had filed the Jackson State

case (Burton v. Williams) and I had filed more than 40 lawsuits by July, 1970.

Ms. Myers After that time, were there any new approaches to people that you had learned

-- to blacks, to females, to people in general, had you softened any?

Ms. Harvey No, not then. I had not. I had not really been bruised any further. The

Jackson State lawsuit (Burton v. Williams, 502 F.2d 1261 (5th cir. 1974) and

the end result of that lawsuit was a final bruising and the last that my spirit

could endure. I made a conscious choice to leave the practice of civil rights

law and took a bus trip to the East Coast, came back and volunteered with

Legal Services for a month. Then I came home to Forest and opened my

private practice.

Ms. Myers We know you were a civil rights lawyer. Let's discuss civil rights lawyer as

opposed to being an attorney. What is your definition of civil rights lawyer?

Ms. Harvey I think it's an attorney who specializes in the practice of law regarding

discrimination, injustice and/or systematic mistreatment of individuals who

have no control over their lot in life.

Ms. Myers Whether they're black or white or female?

Ms. Harvey Right and now I extend that to whether they're Hispanic or Choctaw, black,

white or female.

Ms. Myers Are you proud to be referred to as a Civil Rights lawyer?

82 5llll457vl Ms. Harvey. I've often not wanted to be limited to a Civil Rights lawyer but I always tell

people it is what it is. Back then, that's what I was referred to as a Civil

Rights attorney, and that's my history. Some would contend that's my

contribution but I see myself now as an attorney who happened to practice

Civil Rights law; who believed in the Constitution and who still believes that

all people are created equally and that no institution should make a distinction

if God doesn't. I've added to my involvement in life, a Youth Court

Prosecutor, which might somewhat be contrary to Civil Rights attorney. I

have corporate clients. I once enjoyed the practice of criminal law more than

I did Civil Rights law because most of the defendants were African

Americans. Now, I'm recognized as a Family Law Specialist. I made some

money, probably more money than I ever made, as an attorney representing

nursing home residents -- suing big nursing homes -- I did that for about five

years. So I think I've been around the block but I guess my greatest

achievement is my contribution as a Civil Rights attorney.

Ms. Myers So the label did limit your cases?

Ms. Harvey Most people saw me as a Civil Rights Attorney for three years. After that, I

became known as a Legal Services Attorney. I became Director of East MS

Legal Services; I established a Legal Services Program here in Scott County.

I became known as the Legal Services Attorney. Then in 1980, when I went

to work for Governor William Winter, I was known as State Government

Administrator and when I left there, I was known as Assistant Secretary of

State for Elections and Public Land. When I left there, I came back to Forest

83 51 l l 1457vl and became known as a Private Practitioner and now I'm known as a Youth

Court Prosecutor. I'm just a country lawyer.

Ms. Myers So Constance, worst case scenario. I want to get a divorce from my husband.

Should I come to a female and I'm black or should I go to a black person or

should I go to a black female?

Ms. Harvey I'm more comfortable dealing with women who have been abused and women

who are victims of the system. But I find that most of my clients are men. I

represent probably as many whites in divorce cases as I represent blacks so

the irony in that is that I know that I'm black, they know that I'm black, they

want a good lawyer, they get me. It doesn't matter what color. I'm known for

standing up for my clients and I'm known as being very civil and respectful to

the judges.

Ms. Myers Okay. Would you like to add something to anything I did not ask you about

Tougaloo or about law school?

Ms. Harvey At this point I can think of no area that you have not exhausted.

Ms. Myers Let's deal with some definitions then I think need to be explored and one of

them is racism. What is your definition from a black woman's perspective of

racism?

Ms. Harvey Racism is an attitude that, from my perspective, may or may not be

institutionalized, that negatively portrays an individual of one race because of

his or her race.

84 511 l 1457vl Ms. Myers Okay. Good. Now when you speak of institutionalized, we are speaking of

people like the police. Do you still think that's one of the strongest forms of

institutionalized racism?

Ms. Harvey I think that's one of the most strongest forms that's obvious. If you stop

someone simply because they're Black, that's a manifestation of

institutionalized racism or the practice of institutionalized racism. If you, as a

judge, view a defendant who is Black as being 'probably' guilty because he is

Black, that's institutionalized racism. If someone walks into a store and picks

up a pair of shoes and the clerk happens to drop what they're doing and watch

that person until she or he leaves the store and that person happens to be black

and they've been trained or taught to watch black people when they come in

and put their hands on something, that, to me, is racism. If you are raised in a

certain environment, your reactions instinctive and there's nothing you can do

about it. Unless you consciously work at it, on the other hand, I think there

are some black people who expect to be treated differently because of

institutionalized racism.

Ms. Myers Okay, now if you were a black woman stopped by a black policeman, would

you expect special treatment from the black policeman?

Ms. Harvey The first ticket I ever got was from a Highway Patrolman who was black. I

filed the lawsuit making it possible for him to get a job. I didn't expect any

special treatment but I did expect him to be civil and I was disappointed.

Ms. Myers Did he know who you were?

85 51111457vl Ms. Harvey Did not know who I was and really didn't care because he was a highway

patrolman and what he said was the law. When I challenged him on my

speed, he told me, "Well you better get you a lawyer," and I said, "Good news

for you, I got one already and I don't have to pay her." He didn't understand

what I was saying ... Within two weeks, we had a Christmas party and my

husband invited several Highway Patrolmen. I opened the door and

recognized it was "Mr. Ticket Patrolman". I instinctively closed the door and

my husband had to let him in. I wouldn't mind special treatment but I don't

expect it.

Ms. Myers Okay. Connie, when people hear your name and when they know you're a

down-to-earth person, they get all excited. We know you're a pioneer; we

know you're a trailblazer; we know all of that. How does that affect you that

people get so excited about you?

Ms. Harvey It embarrasses me. I don't want to be treated any differently because of who I

am. I don't treat people differently because of who they are. I don't care who

you are, if you're decent and you're nice to people, I'm drawn to you. You

could be Michelle Obama's sister and be nasty and I would not be affected,

you're just a nasty person. And you could be Michelle Obama's cousin and

be nice and I would be attracted to you because you are a nice person, not

because of who you are. Unfortunately in this country, we have treatment for

rich people and people who have, and we have treatment for poor people and

people who do not have. That's why I'm so proud of Judge Hinds County

Circuit Court Tome Green and her decision yesterday; I think it was

86 51 ll 1457vl Wednesday, when she did not let her decision to follow the law be affected or

altered by the fact that the woman (Karen Irby) she was sentencing was a

millionaire's wife. That's the kind of administration of justice that I wish I

could have actively participated in when I was younger. I'm not complaining

because I see it now when I'm older but I think I would have turned out to be

a different person had I been allowed an opportunity to see fair administration

of justice shortly after I got out of law school.

Ms. Myers As a pioneer, do you feel that you opened the door for all females to be in the

legal profession?

Ms. Harvey I'll take some of that credit and I'm still available to help any female, black or

white, who is experiencing or has experienced problems in the legal

profession. I obviously identify more closely with black women because I've

been there and there's nothing we can pull out of a bag to help us out of a

situation because we're black and we're female. Several of my good friends,

who are white female attorneys have told me that if they had been black, they

would not have been given certain positions and that it was to their advantage

to be white. I know that and that's why I call them friends, because we're

comfortable enough to discuss the realities of race. I'm always available to

black female lawyers who are having problems, and to white female lawyers

who know me well enough to call and talk with me about it.

Ms. Myers Are you familiar with the latest Arizona case -- the ruling in Arizona about

racial profiling?

87 51111457vl Ms. Harvey I'm familiar with the law that the governor signed into law regarding

Hispanics and immigration.

Ms. Myers Exactly.

Ms. Harvey I am disturbed by that because it is so blatant and the fact that it would be so

popular in certain areas is disturbing. But I'm not surprised; I'm disturbed but

not surprised and that's where I think the Prayer of Serenity comes into play

in my life. Once upon a time, I would be absolutely furious. I would have

called, I would have initiated petitions .... now, there are younger people that

can do that. But if anybody needs my assistance, I'm here. It's not surprising

to me because I think this country is going in a direction of self destruction

and that's frightening. But since I'm not in a position to lead or drive the

boat, bus ship, I just know my position as a passenger and there are some

things I won't tolerate but insofar as trying to tell the leader. No we don't

need to .... , tell the pilot 'don't go over in this direction don't raise your

wings' ... I don't do that.

Ms. Myers What is one of the things you refer to as self-destruction.

Ms. Harvey You mean the country?

Ms. Myers Right.

Ms. Harvey How we treat children. Children and education -- they don't have advocates;

they don't have lobbyists -- so they're last on the priority list. How we treat

nursing home residents giving them very little protection. How we treat our

elderly, how we treat sick people. Complaining because insurance companies

won't have a right to deny treatment to sick people. How we behave as

88 51 l l 1457vl elected officials. How we discriminate against our leaders because of their

color, sex, beliefs. How the Tea Party individuals are up in arms over matters

that have been problems for the past 20 years. How we can be so

disrespectful of other people and how we profess to be God fearing people on

Sunday and be the devil's nieces and nephews the other six days of the week.

Ms. Myers Now as a senior lawyer, how can you right some of these wrongs?

Ms. Harvey I take consolation in looking at the Highway Patrol. Seeing woman write

tickets and seeing Blacks and woman in certain positions. I take consolation

in looking at the MS Home Extension Department and seeing women and

African Americans in positions of authority. When I look at the state penal

institution, (Parchman) where we filed a lawsuit to humanize that institution,

seeing some female administrators and a more humane facility makes me real

happy. Seeing females who are on the Supreme Court. Seeing female judges

like Judge Greene or several of my former ....

Ms. Myers That's Tomie Greene.

Ms. Harvey Denise Sweet Owens, Hinds County Chancellor, Johnnie Williams, Forrest

County Chancellor. I feel good seeing this judges in positions of trust and

power. The young people that I work with now, the kids who are 14 and 15,

someday they will make us all proud. This I believe.

Ms. Myers Connie, this ends our interview for today. We'll ~ake this up and start with

your first job, Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights Under Law. After that

we'll go into your private practice. So you can be thinking about that. Have a

good evening and thank you for such a splendid interview.

89 51 l l 1457vl Ms. Harvey Thank you so very much and you're know you are quite welcome. I'm

always challenged by your questions. Thank you so much.

90 5llll457vl Oral History of Constance Slaughter Harvey Interview 3 June 4, 2010

Ms Myers: I'm at the law office of Attorney Constance Slaughter Harvey.

The interview today begins after you have completed law school at

the University of Mississippi and now we are about to embark on

your first career job. The Lawyer's Committee for Civil Rights, is

that right?

Ms. Harvey: That's right. It's called Lawyer's Committee for Civil Rights

Under Law (LCCRUL). It was an organization founded in 1963 at

the request of President John Kennedy. He asked lawyers, mainly

white lawyers in the East and in the North, to volunteer and come

South to help people obtain their civil rights in a legal setting.

Ms. Myers: Now where was this office located?

Ms. Harvey: The Jackson office was located at 233 North Farish Street in

Jackson.

Ms. Myers: Okay. It's my knowledge that Farish Street is a historical

landmark in downtown Jackson. Is that correct?

Ms. Harvey: That's correct. They are now trying to refurbish Farish Street.

They have a revitalization project going, it's been going on for

about eight years; they've had some problems but now it looks like

it might reach fruition.

Ms. Myers: Okay. Do you recall the Birdland on Farish Street?

51144317vl Ms. Harvey: Very much so. That was one of the first places I partied when I

arrived at the Lawyer's Committee, February of 1970. I would

work late, from 6:00 in the morning until 12:00 at night and on one

occasion, I remember going to the Birdland and having such a

good time that I didn't want to go back to work. It was a really

nice place.

Ms. Myers: Okay. How about Peaches Cafe?

Ms. Harvey: Peaches Cafe is where I gained my weight -- ate breakfast there,

lunch and dinner and they had all kinds of pork sausage

sandwiches as well as pig feet. Everything was cooked with pork

and it was so delicious.

Ms. Myers: Soul food.

Ms. Harvey: Soul food. Delicious.

Ms. Myers: Okay, do you recall the Big Apple Inn, better known as what?

Ms. Harvey: Big John's. The Big Apple Inn, that's where I used to get pig ear

sandwiches with mustard and the sausage sandwiches with hot

sauce.

Ms. Myers: Collins Funeral Home is on Farish Street also.

Ms. Harvey: Collins is on Farish Street. My parents were buried from Collins

Funeral Home and so was my grandfather. Now I was born in the

hospital that was right next to Collins Funeral Home. It was tom

down. When I was born it was called Jefferey Memorial Hospital

and it was a hospital for black people only.

- 2 - 51144317vl Ms. Myers: Okay. Why is Ferguson Furniture Co. so significant? It's my

understanding that most blacks got their furniture ...

Ms. Harvey: Oh yes, I'm sorry; got their furniture there on credit. If you could

talk and walk, you could get furniture from Ferguson's but they

would get their money back. They never went broke; they would

take care of themselves.

Ms. Myers: Boots Flower Shop.

Ms. Harvey: Boots is still there, I believe. It's a Black florist and they, too, did

work on credit. They did a good job but with integration, quite a

few blacks stopped doing business with them, patronizing them,

and went to other florists that were new and had a better variety.

Ms. Myers: Now last but not least, there's the Alamo Theater.

Ms. Harvey: I remember going to the Alamo several times when I was a student

at Tougaloo. Entertainers like Cab Calloway and others performed

there. I remember Lena Horne came down once.

Ms. Myers: So this constitutes what makes up Farish Street that you say now

they're refurbishing.

Ms. Harvey: They're refurbishing. There was Stevens Kitchen, the Rose

Room. That's where I saw Lena Home and Nat King Cole. If you

were anybody and you had any money, (you were black), that was

the place to have a surprise birthday party or to have an

engagement party. The food was absolutely delicious. I don't

think I've ever had any shrimp as good as the shrimp that you

- 3 - 51144317vl could get at Stevens' Kitchen. We called it the Rose Room. It was

really nice.

Ms. Myers: Okay. So all of this is your being a part of the Lawyer's

Committee for Civil Rights. What influenced your decision to

work at the Lawyer's Committee for Civil Rights Under Law?

Ms. Harvey: I went to law school to try to bring about changes in the legal

setting and the legal environment. When I was a second year

going into my third year, James Robertson, he is now a United

States District Judge in D.C., who was the Chief Counsel for the

Lawyer's Committee in Jackson, came up and recruited me to

work with the Lawyer's Committee.

Ms. Myers: Okay. James Robertson or Robinson.

Ms. Harvey: Robertson.

Ms. Myers: When you became a lawyer, were women opting out of the

profession?

Ms. Harvey: When I became a lawyer, I don't recall more than three females

who were in the legal profession. And in Mississippi, they were all

white. I recall Marian Wright Edelman, she was Marion Wright

then, working here in Mississippi for awhile, maybe less than a

year. I remember Constance Baker Motley, who came to

Mississippi to represent James Meredith. She was the first black

female admitted to practice in Mississippi. Marian Wright

Edelman passed the Bar and I think she has the distinction of being

- 4 - 51144317vl the first African American female to pass the Mississippi Bar.

Tanya Banks was married to Fred Banks who was the second

Black Mississippi Supreme Court Justice. Tonya passed the Bar.

She was number two. I never had to pass the Bar so when I got

out, there were two women who had passed the Bar, only one of

whom was practicing in Mississippi.

Ms. Myers: Do you feel you met the standards for providing high quality

services as a lawyer?

Ms. Harvey: I think I probably exceeded my own expectations because I was

always under the gun to do better than anybody else or to do my

very best so to the end, I have always maintained high standards.

All the secretaries I've had will tell you that if it looks like it's a

mistake, you have to do it over. I do that for myself. I will not

sign anything, nor will I send anything that is less than the best and

I do that because I have seen some whites back then look at certain

documents that are prepared by African Americans and expect to

see the worst. I have always said nobody will be able to determine

my race by the presentation of my work.

Ms. Myers: Were there very many black male lawyers practicing at the time in

Jackson?

Ms. Harvey: January of 1970, that's when I started to practice, there were fewer

than 10 black male lawyers. We had an organization called the

Magnolia Bar Association comprised of African American lawyers

- 5 - 51144317vl and we may have had 10 members who belonged to the

Association.

Ms. Myers: With so few women and about 10 black males, how did they

receive you as a lawyer?

Ms. Harvey: With black lawyers, it was a family. Outside of that brother

sisterhood, the reception was generally, fairly hostile. I recall

going to the Mississippi Bar Association shortly after I became an

attorney, and one of the lawyers there wanted to know where I was

working ... whether I was in the kitchen or I was in the laundry. I

never went back to the Convention again until maybe 20 years

later.

Ms. Myers: Can you recall any one lawyer who was encouraging to you?

Ms. Harvey: I recall a law school professor who was also Dean, Joel Blass,

being encouraging. He still is most encouraging to me now. He

was a jewel. He's Catholic, tall, heavy voice. He had been a state

legislator and he later became Supreme Court justice. I recall Joel

Blass be-ing very encouraging and supportive of me.

Ms. Myers: Okay. While working at the Lawyer's Committee, were you at

liberty to get clients on your own at this time?

Ms. Harvey: Generally as a staff attorney with the Lawyer's Committee for

Civil Rights Under Law, I was assigned cases. But when the

students were killed at Jackson State in May of 1970, my

involvement with the student body at that time created an

- 6 - 51144317vl atmosphere where the young people there could come to me for

legal assistance. I had two sisters (Cynthia and Clarice) who were

Jackson State students at that time and the individuals who were

injured came to me and I got the retainers. But I got the retainers

in the name of the Lawyer's Committee for Civil Rights Under

Law because I was a part of that organization.

Ms. Myers: Were other blacks eager to hire you as a lawyer?

Ms. Harvey: When I was working with the Lawyer's Committee, I could not

work for anybody else other than the Lawyer's Committee. When

I left the Lawyer's Committee in 1972, I came back to Forest and

opened my private practice. It was very ~ifficult for me to get

African Americans to come to me because number one, they did

not know whether or not I was competent Number two, they were

still of the mistaken belief that white folks ice is colder than black

people's ice and it took awhile, a year or so, for African

Americans, even those I knew, to feel comfortable enough to come

to me for legal services. In fact, I represented whites before I

represented blacks. When I represented whites and won those

cases, then my credibility in the African American community

went up ... That's unfortunate, huh?

Ms. Myers: At the Lawyer's Committee, what type cases were you generally

assigned?

- 7 - 5ll44317vl Ms. Harvey: I wanted to deal with cases that were not glamorous. Individuals

who were victims of police brutality, I took those cases. I really

wasn't at liberty to determine what kinds of cases I would take.

For instance, with the lawsuit (Morrow v. Crisler, 491 F.2d 1053

(1974) against the Mississippi Highway Safety Patrol, that was one

where the paralegal (Jimmy Harvey) who later became my

husband, came up with that case. We knew that there were no

African American highway patrolmen so we sent a young African

American man out to get an application. They said they had no

applications. We then sent out a white guy to get an application

and they gave him an application. So we pretty much had the case

right there. That was one that I came up with and the Lawyer's

Committee litigated it. We litigated it while I was with the

Lawyer's Committee. There were cases where young black

students were stopped at roadblocks and their afro haircuts were

cut off. I took those kinds of cases. So I pretty much generated

my own clientele while I was with the Lawyer's Committee but I

also took cases that were already there before I came. I was the

only attorney licensed to practice in the state with the Lawyer's

Committee. There were white lawyers coming down from all over

the nation. They could not practice in Mississippi so I had to sign

all of their pleadings in order for them to be able to go into court.

Once I signed their pleadings and made a motion for them to be

- 8 - 51144317vl associated with the case, they could practice with limits. With

redistricting, I handled redistricting lawsuits, boycott lawsuits that

were filed by the NAACP down in Natchez. I handled those.

Discrimination lawsuits against black people not being able to

work for state government. I handled those cases as well. So I had

quite a few cases; I was quite busy and fortunate that I was that

young so I could hang in there that long.

Ms. Myers: Can you recall a case that you wish you had never handled?

Ms. Harvey: Sometimes in retrospect insofar as my personal psyche is

concerned, I look at the Jackson State lawsuit (Burton v. Williams)

where there was such a travesty of justice and I often say I wish I

had not gotten involved in that case. But then I quickly change my

mind and say those young men deserve the best and we gave them

the best. The defendants refused, however, to acknowledge that

there was a wrong and that that wrong should have been corrected

and that compensation, or at least an apology, should have come

from that wrong by state officials. I believe that's the only case

where I really thought about it and that was so traumatic. I can't

recall any case that I actually litigated where I regret having done

it.

Ms. Myers: Now as a trailblazer, did you practice waiting for things to get

better or were you vigilant in getting things done?

- 9 - 5ll44317vl Ms. Harvey: When I was young, even as a young child, I never waited for

things to get better. Especially when I got out of law school,

because that is the reason I went to law school -- to make things

better. I knew that the system was not about to correct itself. It

had to be prodded and even pushed to make certain that justice was

in fact blind. So I nudged, I pushed, I forced the doors open. I

never even thought about the door just automatically opening,

saying come in because I knew there were people there who were

trying to keep the door shut. So I knew I had to do more than

push. I had to force and kick down and I have no regrets from

having done that.

Ms. Myers: Can you describe your innermost feelings when you lose a case?

Ms. Harvey: One case that destroyed me mentally and spiritually was losing the

Jackson State (Burton v. Williams) case. I think of that case now

and easily I can be brought to tears. It was so painful. It was close

to losing a loved one. I don't think words can adequately describe

the pain associated with that case because it was a confirmation of

the fears that I had that this system was so racist I try not to think

about it because if I do then that's the benchmark for everything

else. I lost a rape case where three young black men were accused

of raping three white girls. That was shortly after I left the

Lawyer's Committee, up in North Mississippi (Columbus). We

found out that the girls and guys were actually having sex and it

- 10 - 5l l44317vl was not forced. It was at a camp house in Lowndes County. When

we received this information, we filed a motion to inspect the camp

house because names were written on the wall. The camp house

belonged to a state legislator named Ben Owens. Judge Sams

made us wait in the courtroom while he said the sheriff was going

to make certain everything was okay. When he came back, the

sheriff reported that the camp house had been burned to the ground

which meant that our case and evidence -- that it was not forcible

rape -- was gone. When we tried that case obviously, we lost but

my concern was that the trials were separate. When we tried J. W.

Smith, all three of the girls testified he was holding the gun. When

we tried Theodore Fields in another trial, the testimony changed

and he was the culprit. That happened with all three of the guys so

when we went to the Mississippi Supreme Court, that was our

argument. The Mississippi Supreme Court ruled that it was a

harmless error and those men spent the majority of their lives in

jail. Those are two cases that will forever haunt me because those

were cases where I wanted to believe in the system and I forced

myself to believe in the system but the system failed the clients,

purely because of racism. So those are two cases that really, really

affect me as a person to this day.

Ms. Myers: Have you done any follow-up as to where these men are or what

happened?

- 11 - 51144317vl Ms. Harvey: Yes Ma' am. With the three guys, one is dead, the other two are

back in Columbus. I was speaking for the NAACP in Columbus

and I was talking about the introduction that I had to the real

world. I mentioned those cases and one of the guys came up -- a

good looking man --came up afterwards and his eyes looked so

familiar -- this had to be about 20, maybe 22 years later. When I

saw him I just started shaking because it was Theodore and he

thanked me for what I had done. I just cried because I said if I had

done a good job, you wouldn't have been in jail. His response to

me was that you did better than anybody has ever did for us. He

told me that the system did that. He made more sense and I was

just so proud but I was still so hurt. When he told me J.W. had

passed, that really got me. When Andrew Charles got out, he left

the state.

With the Jackson State case, we just did the commemoration of the

40th anniversary. Three of the plaintiffs were there and they made

me feel that I did the very best I could. I'm glad they knew that.

The mother of James Earl Greene, the young high school student

who was murdered and I talk every year. We talked about it being

the 40th anniversary and she (Mrs. Myrtle Burton) said to please

keep sending my cards and my calendars and my little love notes

to her. It's a continuing saga.

- 12 - 51144317vl Ms. Myers: Being a pioneer in the profession and as a woman, did you

promote diversity?

Ms. Harvey: Yes, and I still promote diversity. Especially in this area -- Scott

County. We are in an area where we have quite a few Hispanics

who have been encouraged to come to this area to work in the

poultry plant and obviously they speak Spanish. We also have a

Choctaw Indian reservation 40 miles from here (Pearl River,

Choctaw, MS). Native Indian Rita ones is the executive director

and I'm board chairperson of Choctaw Legal Defense and I'm also

one of the advisors to the Hispanic community at our Catholic

Church (St. Michael). I try to make certain that in all situations

where you have people working together, it's as diverse as

possible. I try to include Hispanics, Choctaws, whites and African

Americans as much as I can in any setting. In any setting, I try to

make certain that every voice is heard. When we work with the

school system, I try to make certain that whites, blacks and

Hispanics are heard. With reference to the legal community, I've

always tried to make certain that women are included and African

Americans are included. And we have two Indians who are

members of the state bar and I try to make certain that they are

somewhere involved in the process. We have several Hispanic

lawyers -- one was in court this morning, I try to make certain that

- 13 - 5ll44317vl we pull her in. I truly believe in diversity. That's what America is

about.

Ms. Myers: As an attorney, do you agree or do you disagree that all civil and

human rights can be achieved if conditions are created?

Ms. Harvey: I do.

Ms. Myers: Can you give me an example of one thing that you feel we can

achieve and because conditions were not favorable, we have not

achieved.

Ms. Harvey: The Sixth Amendment guarantees that persons shall be tried by a

jury of his or her peers. Now when I got out of law school, black

defendants were being tried by all white juries. I had to file at least

40 lawsuits in various counties in the state to make certain that that

Amendment had meaning -- that you are tried by a jury of your

peers. There are times when you actually have to force elected

officials and public officials to do what's right in order to make

certain that civil rights, ordinarily taken for granted, are extended

to and enjoyed by all. Conditions have been created wherein the

founding documents are actually given life and meaning.

Ms. Myers: What is your reaction to all men are created equal.

Ms. Harvey: All people should be treated equal as opposed to saying all men are

created equal; all people should be treated equally. If I am a

human being and you're a human being, there should not be laws

that deny me the same rights and privileges that you enjoy. So I

- 14 - 5ll44317vl believe that all people are created equally by God but here on

Earth, there are artificial distinctions and obstacles put there that

make us feel different. Some feel inferior and some feel superior

because of artificial barriers that men have created to cause

dissension and to keep an air of superiority about themselves.

Ms. Myers: Okay. So if I were born with one arm by God, am I still created

equal?

Ms. Harvey: You are still entitled and should be treated no differently than

anyone else who has two arms.

Ms. Myers: As an attorney, how can you create some of these ideal conditions?

Ms. Harvey: I tried to do that when I was with the Lawyer's Committee. I tried

to do that when I helped establish the legal services program here

in East Mississippi. It was East Mississippi Legal Services. I tried

to do that when we got a Choctaw legal services program with

Choctaw Legal Defense I tried to do that teaching students at

Tougaloo College for 35 years. I try to do that now with the Scott

County Youth Court as prosecutor. I'm pleased that I see some

progress. But I'm also concerned there's so much more work that

needs to be done.

Ms. Myers: So you believe knowledge is power?

Ms. Harvey: Very much so. And I think that's one of the reasons that some

elected officials, particularly those in Mississippi today, who don't

want education to become a God given right because knowledge is

- 15 - 51144317vl power. When you get power, you think for yourself and when you

get power, you are empowered. That's one of the things I often

remember, Medgar Evers (who was my mentor, just really my

main man), I remember him saying. If we teach black people to

vote and the importance of voting, we would be empowered. That

was back in 1963 and it still rings true now because I have seen

black people vote and become a part of that voting, I've seen

communities change because of young power. That is not to say

that all black people are any more honest than whites, but you get

people in power who have been denied for so long who have been

discriminated against for so long and who have been without for so

long, but who are God fearing people, compassionate and who

want to do what's right. And when given an opportunity to do

what's right, and equipped with power, I've been pleased with

what I've seen.

Ms. Myers: As women of today, are we still trapped in some unfavorable

conditions?

Ms. Harvey: I think the system still discriminates against African Americans

because of the built-in racism. I think that same system has built in

sexism -- it discriminates against women. It's a racist and sexist

system that is very slowly being unraveled it makes me very

comfortable to know that in 'sweet by-and-by,' things will be

better for African Americans, Hispanics and women.

- 16 - 51144317vl Ms. Myers: Do you feel you have provided some 'escape routes' for women

and women of color?

Ms. Harvey: I appreciate your using the words escape routes and I think I'm on

the same wave length with you. But I would hope that I have

given them other options. My favorite option is to stay in there

and fight as opposed to saying, 'well I'll step back over here and

I'll retreat or I'll do this or I'll take this role.' I encourage women,

black and white, if you feel you're up for the challenge, forge

ahead. But know that when you forge ahead, there will be

obstacles, but be prepared

Ms. Myers: Okay, Attorney Harvey, do you think the youth and young adults

of today are taking advantage of a way that was paved for them?

And what are they doing to verify that?

Ms. Harvey: I don't think the youth of today are aware of their background to

the extent that they are aware of what work was done to get them

where they are today. I sense that we, my generation, are

responsible for their lack of knowledge. We were so pleased with

the progress we thought we had made that we did not prepare our

children to deal with the inevitable. There's a tendency to always

go back to how it used to be. Consequently, the majority of our

children don't really understand what discrimination is about and

how it affected our self esteem. To that end, I'm concerned that

our children have not been vigilant to hold onto the gains that we

- 17 - 511443 l 7vl have made but I'm also concerned that we have not taught them

the necessity of being vigilant. As Youth Court prosecutor, I see

young people who are good children but who have no earthly idea

as to what's ahead. Why they're in school, why they're not in

school, who Medgar Evers is, who Fannie Lou Hamer is, and who

have no idea as to their heritage. They just have no earthly idea. If

it's not on BET or Face book or the Young and the Restless, they

just have no idea. It bothers me and really concerns me. But, you

know, the "Prayer of Serenity," I do what I can do. I discerned

what can be done and whether or not I can do it with or without

assistance from somebody else. Then I have to let it go and give it

to God.

Ms. Myers: Okay. Is there anything else you want to add concerning your

break with the Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights?

Ms. Harvey: The Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights Under Law was one of

the better opportunities that I've been afforded in my legal career.

It gave me an opportunity to correct many injustices in Mississippi.

There were also offices in Chicago, San Francisco, Dallas, and

other cities. These older attorneys were committed to bringing

about justice in areas of the country where it had been previously

denied. It was absolutely my pleasure, in retrospect, to have

worked with lawyers like Robert Mullin of Cravath, Swain &

Moore out of New York, Thomas Barr, and David Boise. David

- 18 - 51144317vl worked with the Lawyer's Committee on the Jackson State Law

lawsuit for a while. He was also the attorney who represented

Vice President Gore in the lawsuit filed against the reelection of

President Bush. David continues to fight. I learned quite a bit

about the actual practice of law at the Lawyer's Committee. I had

an opportunity to file the lawsuits, that, without the Lawyer's

Committee, would not have been filed.

Ms. Myers: Okay, now what about local lawyers you worked with -- Carsie

Hall and Jack Young and that group?

Ms. Harvey: I did. Carsie Hall w~s basically a real estate attorney back then.

He dealt with a lot of probate work. Jack Young is the attorney

who moved my admission to the United States District Court in the

Southern District. He stood before Judge Harold Cox, who was a

renowned racist judge, who professed to be ultra conservative and

who indicated that he did not like white people coming to

Mississippi trying to help black people. Jack Young made a

motion before Judge Cox to have me become a member of that bar.

I.e., to be sworn into his court. Judge Cox refused to let me be

sworn in because he didn't like what I had on. I had to leave and

go to Vogue on Capital Street and buy me a red, white, blue and

yellow dress and a pair of red and white shoes and come back and

be sworn in before Judge Cox by Attorney Young.

Ms. Myers: Was it the colors that were in question or the dress?

- 19 - 511443 l 7vl Ms. Harvey: When I initially appeared before him that morning, I had on a

brown skirt and a brown vest which were just alike, same material,

brown and green. I had on a green turtleneck, and some brown

boots. The skirt was short but it was appropriate. He just said he

was not going to swear me in looking like I'd come from a honky­

tonk.

Ms. Myers: You didn't agree?

Ms. Harvey: I definitely didn't agree but Jack Young was my mentor then and

he told me not to say anything ... you just breath so I said nothing

and I kept breathing. He told me what I needed to buy in order to

get sworn in and I did.

Ms. Myers: Who told you?

Ms. Harvey: Jack Young and his wife, Aurelia Young, because he knew Judge

Cox and he could deal with him. I knew him and I didn't want to

deal with him. We never saw eye-to-eye on anything but in order

to get into his court, I bought that outfit and I wore it just when I

went before him. I think I wore it every time I went before him to

remind him that I had to buy that dress and he was going to see it

every time he saw me.

Ms. Myers: Language at that time, was it often offensive and how did you hold

up?

Ms. Harvey: With Judge Cox, anything could come out. He once called Black

people 'a bunch of baboons.' "A bunch of chimpanzees." And

- 20 - 51144317vl 'them people.' 'Those folks.' Now, in 1970, I had Judge L.B.

Porter tell me 'Nigger if you get out of that seat, I'll have you

arrested.' That was the first and last time I had a judge to call me

'nigger or nigra' .... Well that was the second, no that was the first

time I had a judge to look at me and say 'Nigger.' I've had judges

to say 'nigra,' or refer to black people as 'niggras.' But that was

the first time a judge had ever looked at me and said 'nigger if you

get out of that seat.' And I forget they're translating this but it was

"nigger ... if you get out if that seat, I' 11have you arrested." And

he looked to the sheriff and he said, 'Mr. Sheriff did you hear me?'

And the Sheriff was Jonathan Edwards then. This was over in

Rankin County in May of 1970. And the sheriff was so anxious to

get me in his jail because we'd had so many run-ins. The chief

counsel of the Lawyer's Committee pleaded with me not to get up

and I was half way up when he asked, 'If you go to jail, who is

going to get the children out of jail?' And that reminded me that I

was the only lawyer who could practice law and if I went to jail,

none of them could get me out. So I used a little common sense. I

sat down but with a pledge that he would never use that word

again. The bottom line is that I told my father and he got some

people together and we found someone to run against Judge Porter.

He then decided he was not going to run for re-election. So that

goes back to further illustrate the power of the vote and ballot.

- 21 - 5 l 1443 l 7vl Ms. Myers: Okay. How did you exit the Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights

Under the Law?

Ms. Harvey: I left under very unpleasant circumstances. We lost the Jackson

State case in March, 1972. I had problems because of the direction

of that lawsuit. Raises were given and I was the only woman -- my

raise was smaller than others and I had done as much or more work

than any other lawyer. I took issue with it. I called the National

office and spoke with the man who recruited me. He told me that

he would handle it. It was just so much drama. Wasn't worth it. I

was still greatly affected by having lost that trial and I just realized

that it was best for me to just pack up and leave.

Ms. Myers: So did you go immediately into private practice after that?

Ms. Harvey Well I left the Lawyer's Committee and I flew to Boston with my

friend, Helen Brown, whom I had met while we were working on

the Jackson State case. Were it not for Helen, I probably would

not have been able to survive. I stayed with her for a week. Then I

got on a Greyhound bus and traveled all up the East Coast. Had a

wonderful time and stopped off at places and visited with friends.

Then I came back and started to work with Central Mississippi

Legal Services. I was on the board there but I started learning how

to practice non-civil rights law. I did that for about a month and a

half. Then I came to Forest and opened my office.

- 22 - 51144317vl Ms. Myers Okay, is this the same as Executive Director of Southern Legal

Rights?

Ms. Harvey: I became Executive Director of Southern Legal Rights Association

maybe a year after I left the Lawyer's Committee. That was an

organization that we had founded. I met Francis Stevens when he

came to the University and worked with North Mississippi Rural

Legal Services. I worked with Legal Services while I was in law

school. Francis was a traditional Mississippi white male attorney

but his work with the legal services programs sort of changed him.

Francis went to Washington and worked with Edgar and Jean

Kahn. They had a program called Dixwell Legal Rights

Association (DLRA). I worked with Francis several months and

we concluded that Southern Legal Rights Association (SLRA)

would be quite appropriate for us to do the work that we wanted to

do. With that program, we trained individuals who were working

in the community to serve as assistants to lawyers. They were lay

advocates and- they were forerunners to paralegals.

Ms. Myers: So at what point did you go into private practice and where was

this office located?

Ms. Harvey: I went into private practice in December 1972 and it was next door

568 Jones Street, Forest, Mississippi. Well, let's back up. The

office we're in now was a store that I later purchased from my

parents. We're next door. I went into the building next door. My

- 23 - 51144317vl father and I built a building and I went into that building. That

building is 568 Jones Street.

Ms. Myers: Okay, private practice. This must have been an emotional

experience. I'm going to call out some words and I need you to

comment or react to them in relations to your emotions at the time

of your leaving a secure job, the Lawyers Committee for Civil

Rights under Law, and entering private practice. So when you

entered private practice, the word I'm using is ecstatic.

Ms. Harvey: I was not ecstatic, I was nervous.

Ms. Myers: Okay. Confident?

Ms. Harvey: I was confident but I'm not certain it showed it.

Ms. Myers: Cautious?

Ms. Harvey: I was cautious because I had no other choice.

Ms. Myers: Anxious?

Ms. Harvey: I was anxious to get business.

Ms. Myers: Frightened?

Ms. Harvey: I was terrifically frightened but I did not show it.

Ms. Myers: Okay, can you recall one thing that frightened you?

Ms. Harvey: Having to go to court in a hostile environment in rural Mississippi

as opposed to having to go to court in a hostile environment in

Jackson which was not rural.

Ms. Myers: Overwhelmed?

Ms. Harvey: Very much so.

- 24 - 51144317vl Ms. Myers: Was there ever a time you felt super overwhelmed and can you

think about what caused it?

Ms. Harvey: I felt overwhelmed, overwhelmed, overwhelmed when I was trying

to have my practice here and handle cases outside of the area.

When I had the case involving the three black men who were

accused of raping three white women, I tried that case about 150

miles from here and I still had to carry on my work here. I felt just

overwhelmed but because of my commitment and my energy and

the challenges, I was able to balance.

Ms. Myers: Did you consider yourself at the top at this time?

Ms. Harvey: I've never considered myself at the top. I've always considered

myself as one who was trying to climb and satisfy. Basically

satisfy my clients, myself and my God, and try to do what was

right -- what I felt was right and what was morally right. But also

to respect the legal professional rules and do what was legally right

and professionally correct.

Ms. Myers: Okay, lonely.

Ms. Harvey: I think that's a state of mind. I felt I was by myself. In retrospect,

I know God was with me but on many occasions, I felt that there

was no one else in the world who understood where I was going I

tried my best not to involve my parents with my problems but

inevitably they, too, were aware of my problems.

- 25 - 51144317vl Ms. Myers: And the final one is surprise, did anything surprise you after

making this move into private practice?

Ms. Harvey: It surprised me that black people were not as supportive as I

thought they would be and that they did not want to pay me for my

legal services but they would pay white lawyers for their legal

services. That surprised me and it caused me a lot of pain.

Ms. Myers: After going into private practice, did this pose a financial burden

on your family and how did they cope with it?

Ms. Harvey: It didn't place a financial burden on my family because I'd never

asked my parents to support me. I paid my way through college

and law school. So, I was never on my parents' payroll or in their

pockets. That was one of the things that I insisted on. My father

took me to the bank when I was 16 and I opened a bank account. I

tried to keep money in that bank. From that day on until the day

my parents died, I never took a dime from them. So it didn't place

a financial burden on my parents. It made it difficult for me but I

had enough things, jobs and activities to get involved in like

Southern Legal Rights Association. I was doing training for the

National Legal Services with Quincy Company. I evaluated legal

services programs across the nation. So as far as my private

practice, I could not have sustained the private practice without the

other employment.

- 26 - 5ll44317vl Ms. Myers: What was the major factor that contributed to the decision of your

going into private practice?

Ms. Harvey: I knew I couldn't stay at the Lawyer's Committee any longer

because I was having serious problems with white men telling me

what priorities were for black people. I didn't know what priorities

were for black people so I didn't feel that they had any expertise to

determine what black people needed. In addition, I was not going

to continue to work as hard as I did and not be compensated

accordingly. I figured that I couldn't do any worse. Now

financially I was doing good with the Lawyers Committee but

that's not all there is to life as you well know. I had to feel

comfortable doing what I wanted to do and felt that I was called to

do. When I came to Forest, I was handling the kind of cases I

wanted to do, but I was not getting the compensation I thought I

deserved.

Ms. Myers: That was going to be my next question. What made you choose

Forest, Mississippi a rural area as opposed to Jackson, Mississippi?

Ms. Harvey: My parents purchased 40 acres of land. They owned a house that

was not on the 40 acres, it was across the street. My father got a

notice that they wanted to go across his land for imminent domain

purposes to give sewage to an all white subdivision. My parents

had a septic tank. My daddy, being the kind of person he was,just

went off! I started dealing with that and then I realized I needed to

- 27 - 51144317vl be at home to protect my parents legally and make certain that

there was no imminent domain in this controversy. I came home, I

filed a lawsuit and we worked it out. My parents received sewage

without having to give up their property.

Ms. Myers: Okay and that word is septic tank?

Ms. Harvey: Yes ma'am. SEPTIC. Yes ma'am.

Ms. Myers: Now were you ever offered a position in a law firm or with a

partner?

Ms. Harvey: Yes.

Ms. Myers: And why did you not take that?

Ms. Harvey: When I left the Lawyer's Committee, I vowed that I would have a

serious time working and taking orders from people who did not

understand me or understand the conditions that we existed in. I

guess I ate my words because after we established legal services in

1976, I became executive director of East MS Legal Services in

1979 and I had to report to ten people on the board. I stayed there

six months and went to work with Governor Winter. I had to

report to him but I knew what he wanted as opposed to what many

people wanted. So I ate my words and I did work for somebody

else.

Ms. Myers: Now were you offered this position because you were a woman or

a black woman, or because you were black?

- 28 - 51144317vl Ms. Harvey: I think I was offered several positions with law firms for both

reasons and also because of political contacts I had at that time.

And also I think it's because I know what I'm doing. I'm known

as being a perfectionist and ifl don't know I will tell you, 'I don't

know, but give me a little while and I'll find the answer for you.'

Ms. Myers: At any time, did you desire to leave Mississippi.

Ms. Harvey: I never desired to leave Mississippi but I must get out of

Mississippi at least once every three months.

Ms. Myers: Okay.

Ms. Harvey: But insofar as leaving the State, I've never had a desire to do that.

Ms. Myers: Okay, one of the most talked about successes in your career is the

founding of the East Mississippi Legal Services?

Ms. Harvey: Yes, ma'am.

Ms. Myers: Do you want to talk about that?

Ms. Harvey: When I came to Forest, the people that I helped could really not

afford to pay me. It really hurt my heart that in some instances I

could not help them because I had to pay my bills and in other

instances I helped them and I had a difficult time paying my bills.

So it dawned on me that I was on legal services boards in North

Mississippi and Central Mississippi. Why can't we have a legal

services program here in Forest. I'll do the same kind of work that

I'm doing now but I'd get paid from governmental sources as

opposed to these poor individuals who couldn't afford to pay me

- 29 - 51144317vl nor pay their gas bills. There were several of us who got together.

· Michael Raft, Robert Thomas and other individuals who worked

with Southern Legal Rights Association (SLRA). We formed East

Mississippi Legal Services. It was there that I met Dick Molpus

who later became my boss. He was Secretary of State from 1984

to 1996. So legal services was really what I'd always dreamed of;

providing legal help to people without having to put a financial

burden on those poor people and yet getting paid for the work that

I did.

Ms. Myers: So the major objective of the organization was to help poor people

who could not financially help themselves?

Ms. Harvey: In a legal setting.

Ms. Myers: In the legal setting. Okay. Now how successful was it to you?

Ms. Harvey: Extremely successful. I really enjoyed it. It hurt my soul and heart

when the Reagan Administration cut the gut, soul and heart out of

the National Legal Services Program. Now the program has just

almost gone to pot. Once upon a time we had eight legal services

programs in the state. Now we have two.

Ms. Myers: And where are they, do you know?

Ms. Harvey: One is headquartered in Oxford and the other is headquartered in

Hattiesburg.

Ms. Myers: So what do the people do here if they have to ..... ?

- 30 - 51144317vl Ms. Harvey: They have to get in line, call, make an appointment to be

interviewed to determine their eligibility and maybe three months

later, they may be able to get assistance. In some instances there

are emergency situations. The legal services program as it was

envisioned is no longer the legal services program that we see

today.

Ms. Myers: So how involved are you still with that program?

Ms. Harvey: I'm still involved with the state legal services program. I am on

the Access to Justice Committee, where we try to make certain that

people who need legal services can actually get them. I'm

President of the Board of Directors of the Choctaw Legal Services

Program. And I'm working now with Hispanic individuals to get a

legal services program for them. We're in the process of trying to

come up with a proposal to try to get legal services for Hispanics.

Ms. Myers: Choctaw, that's that Indian Reservation that's about 40 miles from

here?

Ms. Harvey: About 40 miles from here. It's called [Pearl] River Reservation.

Ms. Myers: So how did you get involved with that?

Ms. Harvey: I got involved with Pearl River when I was involved with legal

services because we had a program there on the reservation. We

were the only program in the nation to have an Indian component

back in 1976, 1977. I really had gotten to know them then and

then lately when I got involved with Choctaw Legal Defense, I've

- 31 - 51144317vl know so many Choctaws. I know the new Chief, Beasley Denson,

a/k/a Miko. I've known him a long time. I got an invitation to

come and discuss possibilities of getting a legal services program.

I went up and I took on the responsibility of being a board

chairman.

Ms. Myers: Do you find that the Choctaw Indians are experiencing some of the

same legal problems that the blacks experienced?

Ms. Harvey: I think the only difference is that they enjoy a different status.

They are citizens of the Choctaw Nation who reside in America

and in Mississippi. They are first and foremost Choctaws. Black

people don't have that identity. We are Mississippians. We have

nothing else that connects us because we cannot identify ancestors

in any particular African country or tribe. Choctaws have the

Choctaw heritage and the Choctaw language that links them. We

don't have that. So they are very proud people. Some are

suspicious of those who aren't Choctaws and I can understand that.

I really enjoy working with Choctaws. They're beautiful people. I

They are very proud of their language and their heritage. They

have a government and court system. I really appreciate the

respect that they have for their heritage.

Ms. Myers Okay. Moving on up into your career. Governor William

Winter's as director of human development, how did you become a

part of that staff?

- 32 - 51144317vl Ms. Harvey: Governor Winter called me one night when I was working late at

Legal Services and asked me to become a part of his staff. I told

him no and I told my father about it that night. He laughed and

said, "You can raise so much hell outside of the system but you

can't work within the system." I took him up on that. We had a

bet and I called the Governor back that morning and told him that I

would be interested in coming for an interview and I did.

Ms. Myers: Were you aware of his platform at the time?

Ms. Harvey: Yes, I have been very much into the political world from the day I

went to Tougaloo so I was aware of what he promised, very much

so.

Ms. Myers: Now were you in school with him, or .... ?

Ms. Harvey: No, William Winter is ...

Ms. Myers: Yeah, he just turned about 80 ....

Ms. Harvey: Yeah, he's about 20 years older than I am but I was a student of

politics and I understand what he was doing. How he did it. I

knew a lot about him.

Ms. Myers: What experiences did you have with Governor Winter's staff?

Ms. Harvey: In 1982 his staff was charged with getting, public kindergarten

passed through the Mississippi legislature. It took us many years

to actually be successful in that effort. We managed to get public

kindergarten enacted into law. It was a lot and a tremendous

amount of work on behalf of the African Americans on his staff.

- 33 - 51144317vl We had to double duty. Willie T. Allen, one of his senior staff

persons, Ruth Wilson, on my staff, and me.

Ms. Myers: Kindergarten, how different is that from Head Start?

Ms. Harvey: Head Start is designed to help individuals whose incomes are at a

certain level. Some people would not qualify for Head Start. In

the public educational system, money and your economic status are

irrelevant. So everybody was entitled to become involved in the

kindergarten program. It was part of the public school program.

Head Start is not a part of the state public school program ... it is

federally funded.

Ms. Myers: Okay, so you're saying before a poor child can go to Head Start

and get a head start but then if your parents didn't have the money

you didn't go to kindergarten?

Ms. Harvey: You'd go to a private kindergarten or a preschool. So before then

Head Start was the answer and then if you couldn't get into Head

Start then you would have to get into some kind of pre-K program

or kindergarten program that charged tuition.

Ms. Myers: Okay.

Ms. Harvey: It was a real good boost and it has made a difference.

Ms. Myers: Governor Winter is also a strong supporter of racial reconciliation?

Ms. Harvey: Yes.

Ms. Myers: And what was that about?

- 34 - 51144317vl Ms. Harvey: The Governor believed in 'fessing-up.' It's a southern phrase, I

believe. Fessing up to your wrongs. He believed in getting the

races to work together insofar as the promotion of racial

reconciliation There is now a William Winter Institute for Racial

Reconciliation at the University of Mississippi and that's working

pretty good. I was one of the original members of that group.

Right now I'm not as active as I could be.

Ms. Myers: Describe William Winter, the man.

Ms. Harvey: Governor Winter is a very unusual man. What attracts me most

about him, and I wrote a paper on him and shared it with the public

at his 75th birthday party, is his humility. I admire his intellect and

his understanding of American history and African American

history. He appreciates the written word and I think he's able to

listen to individuals whose opinions and philosophical beliefs are

different from his. I also think part of his strength is in his

beautiful wife, Elise.

Ms. Myers: Elise?

Ms. Harvey: Elise. Very knowledgeable, very intelligent woman and very

supportive of her husband. She was a beautiful First Lady.

Opened her home to everybody. She's just a real classy lady. I

think he's a master of the political world.

Ms. Myers: So how does that align with what you feel is the political world?

His beliefs and your beliefs, how close were they?

- 35 - 51144317vl Ms. Harvey: We often clashed.

Ms. Myers: Okay.

Ms. Harvey: He was known for being upfront and not biting his tongue and I

was known for being upfront and not biting my tongue. I

remember once at a staff meeting he made a suggestion and very

few people appeared to agree with his suggestion. I disagreed with

him in front of the staff and it didn't go over too well. I mentioned

it to my father and he laughed. He said, "Don't you understand

that if he's your boss, you don't disagree with him in public." I

said, "Why not, and he said, "I told you, you don't know how to

play politics." He told me then, "After the staff meeting is over

you ask him if you can meet with him and you disagree with him

in private." I tried that and I realized that a lot of people might

have disagreed with what he was saying or might have had a

different opinion but they looked to me to articulate that opinion.

When I didn't disagree, nobody else did it. I realized that people

knew that I would speak out so they wouldn't have to run the risk

of going against the boss. So I learned very quickly how to play

the game.

Ms. Myers: Good. So now you are beginning to work again with Dick

Molpus?

Ms. Harvey: Yes.

- 36 - 51144317vl Ms. Myers: And you were the Assistant Secretary of State for Elections and

Public Lands?

Ms. Harvey: Right, right.

Ms. Myers: What did that entail?

Ms. Harvey: The Secretary of State was charged with managing and overseeing

16th section lands and other public lands. Sixteen section lands

were lands that were set aside for public schools. That land was to

be held in trust for the public schools. That land, in addition to

coastal wetlands belonged to the state. Other state property

included state-owned lands, state buildings and further any land

that had become the property of the state because of non-payment

of taxes. All of that was under the Secretary of State's Office and

was under my supervision. Every duty and responsibility that the

former Land Commissioner had was my responsibility. I held the

position of Assistant Secretary of State and Land Commissioner.

In addition I was responsible for the administration of elections in

the state. I was also legal counsel.

Ms. Myers: So how did you become a part of that office?

Ms. Harvey: Well, I got to know Dick Molpus because my mother knew him.

He would come to the store. My parents owned a store (Six Cees

Superette). He would come to the store and Mama just fell in love

with him. I invited him to come to open house at Legal Services.

He came and he was the only businessman who came and

- 37 - 51144317vl supported us. So I had a good impression of him. Then when I

went to work with Governor Winter, I was assigned to work with

Dick Molpus. He was Federal State Coordinator. The program

that I was responsible for was the Department of Human

Development. I had to take six agencies and consolidate into

Human Development Department. That was the most difficult job

I ever had to do because I had to fight six agencies. The Council

on Aging people didn't want to become a part of the Council on

Children. Handicapped Services did not want to be a part of

Volunteer Services. And it was just a big mess. My responsibility

became so difficult because we were dealing with block grant

monies during the Reagan presidency. So I had to deal with block

grant monies and then consolidating agencies - that was a

nightmare. But we were successful.

Ms. Myers: Slow down a little bit, too. On a scale of 1 to 10, how do you think

that .... first of all, you didn't specialize in land grants or anything

like as an attorney. How did the 16th Section Land program work?

Ms. Harvey: No, I did not like land at all when I was a lawyer. I was motivated

because the administration of 16th Section Land was very political.

Nobody wanted to force elected officials to be responsible trustees.

And these individuals had leased acres of school children's land

for a penny an acre for 99 years. That was violation of the State

Constitution because no state land may be given for a donation.

- 38 - 51144317vl And 99 years at one penny an acre a year, that's a donation. So I

had to break those leases by going in and telling school boards that

if they didn't do right and follow the law, we would sue them.

That was right down my alley; I enjoyed that.

Ms. Myers: Okay. So this has nothing to with .... Are you aware of the loss of

land that blacks encountered throughout the years, either being

taken away ...

Ms. Harvey: Yes, ma'am.

Ms. Myers: So that had absolutely nothing to do with that?

Ms. Harvey: Nothing to do with that. Sometimes what I found, much to my

surprise, is that some black folks had leased Sixteen Section land

thinking it was their property. Now the problem that you're

talking about is black folks losing their lands which were not

public lands. These were privately owned acres that black people

lost. That's an area that I've always held dear to my heart. But the

Secretary of State's Office had nothing to do with that.

Ms. Myers: Thanks for that clarification.

Ms. Harvey: Yes, ma'am.

Ms. Myers: Speaking with what we've just dealt with, is there a place now that

blacks can go back and determine what if lands were taken from

them, and if their families did not know it was sold, or how can

they start that process.

- 39 - 51144317vl Ms. Harvey: There's a place called Emergency Land Fund - I'm thinking that

it's still in operation. It is a place where individuals who might

need assistance in trying to determine whether or not their land

was wrongfully taken, can get assistance.

Ms. Myers: And I think it's coming up more and more now. You were also

very instrumental in working with Mail-In Voter Registration?

Ms. Harvey: Yes ma'am. That was an area. The area of elections was probably

dearer to my heart than land. One of the reasons land was so dear

1 is because I had filed several 16 h Section lawsuits when I was in

private practice and lost all of them. But I was able to achieve

exactly what I wanted to achieve being Assistant Secretary of State

Fair leasing of 16th Section Lands which benefitted public school

children. When I arrived at the Secretary of State's office, we had

a desk that was called 'the elections desk.' The person who

worke4 at that desk worked one day a week on elections. When I

left, there was an Elections Division with seven employees, who

had elections desks. So I took a lot of pride in having established

that division. I was concerned that citizens could not register to

vote without going to the courthouse and then to the city hall. We

corrected that with legislation.

Ms. Myers: Did you feel that the Motor and Voter Registration programs

would secure votes for more blacks?

- 40 - 5ll44317vl Ms. Harvey: I thought it would make black people more responsive to

participating in government. With mail-in voter registration, you

did not have to actually take off from work to go and register to

vote. You could mail your ballot. So there would be no more

excuses for not registering and voting. That was a historic day:

April 1, 1991. Governor Ray Mavis signed that Bill into law.

Mail-In Voter Registration became a reality. I have a picture of

him signing the Bill along with my mother Olivia Keeley

Slaughter), my daughter (Constance Olivia Slaughter Harvey),

Hollis Watkins, and Dick Molpus. That picture hangs in my

bedroom. That accomplishment represented fulfillment of a

promise to Medgar Evers - empowerment was the order of the day.

Ms. Myers: So do you feel it did have an impact on the black community?

Ms. Harvey: Yes ma'am it had an impact. That coupled with the fact that we

had eliminated the dual registration requirement - all you had to do

was register in one place - instead of county and city, eliminated

the provision that voided your ballot if you marked an 'X' and then

a 'V.' We made several other changes. Election reform during the

Molpus administration was really a gift to Medgar' and I enjoyed

doing that so very much.

Ms. Myers: Okay here's another pioneer first. You became the first African

American on the Motor Voter National Advisory Board. Is that

right?

- 41 - 51144317vl Ms. Harvey: That's right.

Ms. Myers: Now what was the significance of that accomplishment?

Ms. Harvey: We developed policies for the nation in shaping a program for

Motor Voter. When you went to a Motor Voter office to get your

driver's license, you could register to vote there. So you have no -

excuse for not registering to vote. We expanded voter registration

to offices where local welfare departments were located. It was

really an upbeat insofar as extending the ballot franchise to all

individuals who had earlier been denied an opportunity to

effectively participate in the process.

Ms. Myers: You were also the first woman member of the Motor Voter

National Advisory Board. How do you see this as the milestone

for women?

Ms. Harvey: It brought a different perspective because obviously our

experiences as women define us and I felt that I could bring a

different perspective than men. My questions sometimes

concerned how we address the needs of mothers in our efforts to

make certain that everybody has the right to register to vote and

how we could better utilize the volunteer services of mothers or

young girls who are not encouraged to get out and actually

participate in voter registration drives and so forth. So I felt that

my perspective as a woman and as an African American was

heard. I enjoyed it.

- 42 - 51144317vl Ms. Myers: Have we always had poll watchers?

Ms. Harvey: Yes ma'am we've always had poll watchers. As long as we've had

candidates, one is going to claim he's being cheated or she's going

to claim she's being cheated so the law afford~ somebody there

who represents only the candidates' interests. They make certain

that voters who want to vote for their candidate may do so - they

are poll watchers. Poll workers are individuals who work at the

polls, who have the books, who check to see if you're registered

and so forth. They are paid by the county. Poll watchers are paid

by the candidates.

Ms. Myers: Okay.

Ms. Myers: Since voting is such an important aspect in our society today - you

are familiar with the National Association for the Advancement of

Colored People better known as the NAACP. Is that organization

very active today?

Ms. Harvey: I became a life member of the NAACP in 1978 but I joined the

NAACP in 1963. My father was president of NAACP in Scott

County.

Ms. Myers: Is that chapter still active in Forest?

Ms. Harvey: It is not active. One of the biggest barriers to active NAACP

chapters is the branch assessment. Individual membership is $30 -

up from $10. I was once very active in the State NAACP. I've

become somewhat concerned about whether or not we actually

- 43 - 5 l 1443 l 7vl reach people who really need to be reached and whether we are

addressing the problems that need to be addressed. So to that

extent, I've paid my dues and I'm available to do what I can.

When I was in law school, the arm that I considered to be so

relevant was called the NAACP Legal Defense Fund. I received

grants from the NAACP Legal Defense Fund (LDF) to go to law

school. Those were some of the people that helped me out

financially, and I felt I owed them, and I have been very supportive

of the LDF and feel very close to the ink fund. The NAACP was

once a very viable and relevant organization, especially during the

60s and 70s.

Ms. Myers: Oh I can imagine. So you agree that the NAACP was very

valuable during the civil rights time.

Ms. Harvey: Very valuable.

Ms. Myers: And can be valuable now if they refocus?

Ms. Harvey: Yes. There are too many people on the national board of directors

-- everybody from their particular region -- I'm not being critical,

I'm just being honest and objective. It's very very political and

some people have decided that it's too political. It can still make a

difference.

Ms. Myers: Well Attorney Harvey, this has been a pleasure today. We have

made it from early childhood, humble beginnings. Now we are all

the way up to being in the private practice and all of your other

- 44 - 51144317vl accomplishments. So we have a few more interviews and after that

we're going to do a video. I certainly appreciate all of your

candidness and this is all of the interview for today, June 4, 2010

Attorney Constance Slaughter Harvey and Verna Myers.

Ms. Harvey: Thank you so very much.

- 45 - 51144317vl Oral History of Constance Slaughter Harvey Interview 4 June 25, 2010

Ms. Myers: Good afternoon and welcome to my home.

Ms. Harvey: Thank you. Thank you.

Ms. Myers: Today is Friday, June 25, 2010. I, Verna Myers, am once again conducting an

interview with Constance Slaughter Harvey. Are you relaxed and ready to

share another segment of your incredible life with the world?

Ms. Harvey: Yes ma' am, especially after the wonderful lunch you prepared. Thought I was

in a Class Seven restaurant. It was absolutely excellent. Thank you.

Ms. Myers: You're welcome. Again this interview is being conducted in my hometown

located in Madison, Mississippi. Now Madison is located approximately ten

miles from the capital city, Jackson. According to the 2000 census, there were

14,600 people in Madison. Now I'm extremely interested in the 2010 census.

At the time there were 93% White, 4.9% Black, and other percentages made

of others. The median income is $71,000. Low-crime rate and many, many

level-five schools. In fact, Family Circle magazine listed Madison as one of

the ten best towns for families to live.

Ms. Harvey: Sounds impressive.

Ms. Myers: Now, do you come in contact with many legal issues from Madison?

Ms. Harvey: Not that many. I recall two cases involving custody matters. But the case that

comes to mind dealt with land, and then the role that your mayor played in

trying to make Madison a model city. She is sometimes unpopular with the

51157166vl businesses that want to come in and make a million dollars overnight, so she's

good for Madison.

Ms. Myers: Okay, being so close to Jackson, which has a high crime rate, from your

perspective, what makes the difference in the two cities?

Ms. Harvey: I think Madison has more affluent residents and Jackson has what's left.

Many Madison residents used to live in Jackson and they left to form a suburb

of Jackson. So the affluent leave and those who are not affluent remain. With

gentrification and that what's going on once the poor folks leave the

downtown Jackson area, the rich folks go back and buy up the land and have

co-ops and finer buildings in downtown Jackson. They convert old,

dilapidated, condemned buildings into lofts and hotels and other types of

housing so it's what's happening to all of the other larger cities across the

nation.

Ms. Myers: Yeah we can see that with all the growth and development in the Jackson area

right now.

Ms. Harvey: Right.

Ms. Myers: Good. Okay once again, welcome, as they say in the legal world, do you have

an opening argument?

Ms. Harvey: Today I am going to relax. I don't have an opening argument. I'm just here

to answer any questions.

Ms. Myers: On May 14, during that interview, we touched on a few items that I desire to

revisit. Is that okay with you?

Ms. Harvey: That's fine.

2 Ms. Myers: We talked about marches earlier. What was your level of participation in the

many marches that were taking place during the Civil Rights Movement?

Ms. Harvey: I marched generally when I was so furious, I didn't know I was marching.

But if I sat and thought about whether or not I would march, my answer was

always. The marchers subjected themselves to profanity, insults and

sometimes people would throw things at you. The individuals who were

successful in marching without losing their temper, were nonviolent marchers

and I generally was not one of those.

Ms. Myers: What is your personal definition of racism?

Ms. Harvey: I think racism is a form of discrimination that's premised on a person's race

and the supposition that that person is inferior to you as a human being.

Ms. Myers: Now how has institutionalization, and mainly the police, affected black

people?

Ms. Harvey: Well I think that police officers are trained to take the position that when they

give an order, that order is to be obeyed and that anyone who doesn't obey

that order is violating the law and disrespecting them. History shows that

when Whites ordered Blacks to do certain things during slavery, Blacks

automatically responded by saying, "yes sir," and doing it. Push ahead forty

years to a hundred years, when a white police officer tells a black man to do

something, and he doesn't do it or he questions it, instinctively the white man

has to recall the relationship in the past. The fact that this country has treated

African-Americans as second-class citizens who had no rights and that's even

defined by the United States Supreme Court in the Dred Scott 60 U.S. 393

3 (1857) decision. Black men were slaves and property, so institutional racism

is easy to understand. It's a way of life and people are consumed by that even

though they are not consciously aware of the fact that they are discriminating.

You know, it's as if you have a black supervisor and you're white, and I have

had several tell me, you sometimes wonder, how did this happen. How is that

they are my boss when I'm supposed to be their boss. And my question, when

I was asked that once, was what makes you think you're supposed to be my

boss? When you look at history and Whites have always been in charge and

gradually you have seen a shift in that paradigm. So it's difficult for an

institution of people to accept change and the police department is an

institution. It's part of the institution that has embraced racism.

Ms. Myers: What about racial profiling? Do you think that's a legitimate label that we

use?

Ms. Harvey: I think racial profiling has existed for so long. I recall one of the very first

cases I tried that was where Mississippi highway patrolmen decide to stop

every car that had a Black man wearing an Afro in it and they did it. We

called it illegal roadblocks back then, but it was racial profiling. Or if you

were a Black man with a nice car and you went through certain counties, you

were stopped and generally harassed and probably jailed. Racial profiling is

as old as racism, and with the Hispanic community especially with the

Arizona law and the governor's action coupled with the attitudes of the

Arizona legislators, it's deja vu; it's the same thing that happened with Black

folks especially in the South. The only difference is that with the Hispanic

4 population, their penalty or their punishment is to be returned to their homes.

Our punishment was inevitably death, a lynching or something of that nature.

Ms. Myers: Now I know this question is in relation to relationships. How do you feel

about "the blacker the berries, the sweeter the juice."

Ms. Harvey: Well, my father was dark-skinned and we called him 'black'. That was a

compliment and I've always seen such beauty in blackness. There is a

uniqueness of blackness. Black people are generally more beautiful than

those who are not black and, you know, it's strange that my skin is yellow -­

yellow, red, brown or whatever. But I am just naturally attracted to black

color and like men with the black hue.

Ms. Myers: And I'm just the opposite.

Ms. Harvey: I know.

Ms. Myers: Blacks and language. How about black ebonies. Do you agree with that?

Ms. Harvey: No,I never have. My position is that if English is the official language, and it

is, then we need to all master the English language. I feel strongly as well

that, if you have a population of more than 30% Spanish, then we need, as

responsible leaders, to embrace the Spanish language and learn some phrases

in Spanish. Now ebonies, I've just always thought that, that was a fad, but

apparently it's not. I just don't recognize it. Now I'm comfortable speaking

in any language if I'm familiar with it. I'm learning to speak Spanish. I can

deal with ebonies but in addressing individuals who use the ebonic language, I

let them know that I would prefer that they not speak ebonic especially in my

5 Youth Court Prosecutor's role. I don't understand it but if 'ush came to

shove,'! could relate. I could survive.

Ms. Myers: Yeah. Okay, now what is your view on young people so loosely using the

"N" word?

Ms. Harvey: I recall several years ago the NAACP had a funeral for the "N" word. I

thought that was appropriate. We're going to have to do more than just have a

funeral. We're going to have to teach young people the pain associated with

that word, especially to those of us who've been referred to as 'Nigger.' I

once used it in an endearing way, but it is no longer a part of my vocabulary,

if somebody called me a 'Nigger' or use the "N" word, when I was younger,

that was definitely an invitation to a fight.

Ms. Myers: Thank you. I wasn't sure we had clarified those things before. Now before

we get started with today's interview, we have two issues I would like to get

your views on. I would love to say "off the record," but I don't think anything

that's done nowadays is off the record. Okay the first one is, your gut-level

feeling on the damage from the Gulf oil spill here in Mississippi.

Ms. Harvey: I think the damage is extensive. It's very unfortunate heart aches because

instead of dealing with the damage and the effects of the spill, we're dealing

with blame. And it's become a very political issue. I think that's what really

makes my blood boil, not only it's a political issue, it's a racial issue and I

think it's an attack on the President. I regret that because that's part of the

problem that this country has to deal with. We need to be about substance.

We need to do all we can and put aside racism. And that's the ugliest head in

6 this country. Some people will say that when George Bush was President it

was okay to criticize him, but now that we have a Black man, criticism is

perceived as racism. That's not the issue. If President Obama sneezes,

somebody with a negative mindset is going to say that he should have covered

his mouth, because everybody gets the germ. If he covers his mouth, they' 11

say that he had something to hide. This country is so founded in racism that

it's painful when you sit back and realize it. And the oil spill, it should not be

about whether or not President Obama came to inspect damages. It's not like

with a natural disaster, when you have a tornado or a hurricane and the

President doesn't come down at all and doesn't say anything, like President

Bush's reaction. He didn't come down until later and many people were

killed and left homeless. I just don't see how President Obama should

apologize for what happened because it's beyond his control. President Bush

apologized for Katrina but he was really apologizing because he did nothing

nor did he command his staff to do anything to help the people until he was

crit~cized. And as Kanye West said, you know, if it had been white people, he

probably would have been here earlier. And you can't argue with that if you

look at the race of individuals who ~ere adversely affected in the Sixth Ward

in New Orleans.

Ms. Myers: Thank you for that. I'm glad you mentioned it was an attack on the President.

I've heard that a lot. One of the things they're saying, he didn't handle it

correctly. I don't know whether he handled it correctly or not.

Ms. Harvey: Yes ma'am.

7 Ms. Myers: And we need to appreciate that. The second issue is the recent decision that

President Obama had to make concerning the release of General Stanley

McChrystal, who was the Commander of the United States Forces in

Afghanistan.

Ms. Harvey: Yes ma'am.

Ms. Myers: First of all, I've read two things, one was I know the man had his resignation

in hand and now I'm hearing that the President released him, as an attorney,

was he released or did he resign?

Ms. Harvey: It's my understanding he resigned and his resignation was accepted. That's

my understanding of what happened. If I had been president, and obviously

I'm not, I would have fired him. I would not have accepted his resignation. I

think what he did was most unprofessional. I don't think he would have said

that about President Bush, even though Bush would probably come closer to

deserving that than Obama, but there again, there appears to be such a total or

disrespect for the office of the President now that a Black man is there. And I

know there are critics who are going to say that when you can't find any other

reason to complain, you bring up race.· Well that's true but it's generally

correct - racism is alive and well. You don't want to say everything that

happens is based on race but when you look at the structure of this country

and the foundation of this country, racism played a great role in developing all

the systems that we have including the legal system. And I'm prepared to

argue that until the 'cows come home' about racism and how it relates to

dispensing justice in America.

8 Ms. Myers: Thank you. I'm concerned you have some strong feelings. I was wondering

if it's because you're black, is it because of civil rights? You don't have to

answer that.

Ms. Harvey: Yes ma'am.

Ms. Myers: Okay thank you for talking about those two issues. We're going to talk today

about you being a Trailblazer or a Pioneer. You found paths through many

unexplored territories. Was it an unwritten goal of yours to accomplish so

many firsts in your life? First of all, what possessed you to run for the student

body President at Tougaloo College? Were you the first?

Ms. Harvey: I was the first female to be elected for the position. There was a young lady,

who was vice president and the president was called away, and she became

president. But she'd never ran and never elected president of the student

body. That was the reason that distinction was made. My race was a difficult

one and I ran against a male named Andrew Thomas. And he was an Alpha

(Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity) and I was a Delta ( Delta Sigma Theta Sorority).

He wanted the position and so did I. I won. And I won pretty heavily. I was

a leader in my high school student government and at the district level. I just

always felt that somebody needs to step up to the plate and try to do a good

job. I wanted to see students have much more of an active role and a voice at

Tougaloo and I felt that I was qualified to do it and I wanted to do it.

Ms. Myers: What were some of the difficulties you encountered while you were running?

Ms. Harvey: I don't think sex had anything to do with it other than the fact that some

people said a man can do it better. I said no he can't. You know and I would

9 just respond so quickly that if it were an issue, if my sex were issue, it never

surfaced to the extent that it was a stumbling block. Many of my friends were

guys and some of them would say that I was 'one of the boys'. So to that

extent, it was a plus. One girl mentioned something about being a secretary. I

told her I could be secretary and president. That was no problem. It was

something that I felt was within my reach.

Ms. Myers: Okay, so you were not running because you were a female - you were just

running because you felt there was some concerns that needed to be met?

Ms. Harvey: That's the way I've pretty much done all my life. If I feel there is a need for

my services, I offer myself. I offer to address those needs and the fact that

I'm a woman is just part of me.

Ms. Myers: Another first in your life: How did you become the first Tougaloo College

student to attend Howard University in the Intensive Summer program?

Ms. Harvey: It was Harvard, not Howard. It was Harvard University and I was a political

science student at Tugaloo College. We had an exchange program with

Brown University in Providence, Rhode Island and they had a program that

Ford Foundation. The program's focus was to see if Black southern students

could survive - academically, spiritually, mentally, and otherwise - at Ivy

League schools. Tougaloo and Jackson State, and I believe Alcorn, were

selected from the State of Mississippi to send one student each to the Intensive

Summer Studies Program (ISSP). In selecting students, the staff looked at our

transcripts. Harvard selected me, Yale selected Ed Cole from Jackson State.

So I guess I was just blessed. I was so excited.

10 Ms. Myers: Were you prepared for the academic demands?

Ms. Harvey: I was prepared but I doubted my preparation for Harvard University in 1965.

My parents were more delighted than anybody. I had some pretty good study

habits. That was the first time I'd ever been on a plane. We flew Southern

Airways. My parents took me to the airport. You know you have many

reservations and a lot of anxiety about change - that was probably one of the

most challenging experiences in my life. I took three classes and one was

Constitutional Law. I knew I wanted to be a lawyer. When I walked into that

class, my heart just dropped. I had never seen so many strange-looking

people. Just looking at their eyes, I thought they were so smart. You feel

funny, like a fish out of water. And there may have been two Blacks in the

class; well, two in addition to me. One was a man by the name of Walter

Dixon, he was a Baltimore, Maryland city councilman. He was an older man

and he couldn't write fast, but he could comprehend, so I sat next to him. I

took our notes and after class we talked about what happened. And he made

my heart just so, so, so very happy. I got a "B" out of that course and I think

he got a "C." Back then he was about sixty-five and he did well. We became

very good friends and I visited his home on several occasions. His wife was a

dear person. We remained friends even after his death. I received 2 "B's"

and 1 "C" but I really worked hard that summer. I booked. I booked more

there than I did in law school.

Ms. Myers: Okay. Was it a culture shock for you? You mentioned how they looked.

What were some of the other things that you were not accustomed to?

11 Ms. Harvey: I wasn't used to that many people being in a class because I was coming from

Tougaloo where, if we had 25 people in a class, that was big. I was not

accustomed to being that far away from my professor. He was like he was on

a movie screen, he was so far away from me. I didn't feel right raising my

hand or asking a questions. The campus was huge and absolutely beautiful. I

got lost on many occasions going to and from my dorm to the dining hall. It

was just, just taking a country girl, putting her into an Ivy League school. It

really blew my mind. But I got to the point where I enjoyed it and it became a

part of me. I enjoyed going to Filene' s Basement. I fell in love with the

Boston Celtics and still cheer them on. That was a beautiful experience. The

fact that I was female and was Black probably had an impact on me but, in

looking at it now, I just know that it was a challenge because I had to get some

good grades and I had to prove that black, southern college students could

survive; in fact, we could excel at an Ivy League school.

Ms. Myers: Were there other cultures (other than Black and White)?.

Ms. Harvey: I recall there were several Indians in the class and other people of color,

beautiful people of color but I didn't know their nationality or where they

were from. But it was really, it was a melting pot. Now at Tougaloo, I recall

that we had students from other countries. We had African students. We

never had any Indians, but we had African students and we had White

students. So, we had a fair mixture. My political science advisor (Joe Huang)

was from China and there were several Chinese students in my classes.

Ms. Myers: What adjustments did you have to make for survival once you got there?

12 Ms. Harvey: I had to get adjusted to not hear my parents' voices and not going outside and

standing on the porch, and I missed being in Mississippi. But hearing

different sounds in the morning when I woke up was somewhat reassuring and

comforting. I had to get accustomed to walking so far to eat and I had to get

adjusted to having such large classes. One of the most difficult things was to

get adjusted to pronunciations. I had a professor who talked properly. His

name was Myron McDougal. I really had to just put my ear down real close

to be able to hear him. After a couple of class sessions, I followed him.

Ms. Myers: What were some of the - did you ever hear any prejudiced statements about

Mississippi?

Ms. Harvey: Well, during that time, you would always hear, "Where are you from?" I'd

say, "Mississippi." "Oh my goodness, you poor thing." And I got

accustomed to that and, as time went on. In response to other questions, I'd

respond "Well being black in Mississippi is being black in America."

Ms. Myers: Were you a shock to them? Did they expect you to talk a certain way? What

were their expectations?

Ms. Harvey: I got a lot of compliments because if I want to, I never meet a stranger. I was

generally comfortable with who I was. But I know that I was anxious about

making the transition from being a student at Tougaloo to being a Harvard

summer student. I was concerned about that. But all in all, I can only say that

the experience was wonderful. I do recall stares and people looking at me. I

couldn't tell if it were my personality, my clothes or what; I know that when I

walked into a classroom, they would do a double-take. But it was not the

13 hostility that I faced at the University. It was more like curiousity and being

in the spotlight. I couldn't sense any negatives; I really couldn't. So when

people were talking about the racism in Boston, I couldn't quite deal with it

because I didn't feel it. Then when I thought about it, I was at Cambridge,

which is totally different from Boston. And it's more, it's obviously an

intellectual center but people from all over the world are at Cambridge. And I

do remember some nasty things that I heard when I was at Filene's Basement

in Boston. But those people were just pushing over clothes and, you know,

anything could have come out of their mouths. They were just trying to find a

sale or bargain, and it was like a madhouse. People would take stuff out of

your hands, pull it out of your hands, it's just like a, you know, it's just a

madhouse. And they would say anything. You could hear a whole bunch of

words that you don't want to repeat.

Ms. Myers: Okay. [Laugh]

Ms. Harvey: But I would assume they were saying it because I was probably pulling the

blouse that they had held for a while.

Ms. Myers: So you do have fond memories of the program?

Ms. Harvey: Very much so. It gave me the impetus and the confidence that I needed. I

learned that if I gave it my best, I could do anything that I wanted to do -

nothing was impossible.

Ms. Myers: So how did this program affect your decision in the legal field?

Ms. Harvey: Well I had, following Medgar Evers' death in '63, I switched from pre­

Medicine to pre-Law. I had pretty much made up my mind that the only way

14 I could make significant change was in a courtroom, in the legal profession. It

made me realize, that experience at the Intensive Summer Studies Program at

Harvard, that, law school would be a challenge, but I could handle it. So it

was a positive for me.

Ms. Myers: Very good. First African-American trial judge in the State of Mississippi

since Reconstruction, and that was after the Civil War. You were appointed

in 1975. Who appointed you?

Ms. Harvey: Judge Osborn Gyton Idom asked if I would serve as Special Judge. The two

lawyers who were involved on the case, Danny Hunter and Thomas Lee,

agreed.

Ms. Myers: Very good. Did this come as a surprise to you?

Ms. Harvey: No.

Ms. Myers: Why not?

Ms. Harvey: Because I knew I was smart and I felt I could do it, I got along well with both

of the lawyers and had a reputation for being competent.

Ms. Myers: Can you talk about the nature of the case?

Ms. Harvey: It was a child custody case. The parties were arguing overwho should have

custody of the child. All parties were white including the judge, the lawyers,

and the litigants.

Ms. Myers: Were you satisfied with the results?

Ms. Harvey: Very much so. Just very pleased with it. The mother was awarded custody,

but, I warned her about trying to keep the child from the father. I made

15 certain that visitation was in the order. I enjoyed it. I would not want to do

that for a living, though.

Ms. Myers: Why?

Ms. Harvey: To me, it's too awesome and if something happens that's negative, you'll have

a tendency to revisit and blame yourself and I'm my own worst critic. I

enjoyed it but I always enjoy a challenge. I don't think I could handle that

challenge on a daily basis and it's a bit too confining.

Ms. Myers: Okay. Get ready for this. Want to take a break?

Ms. Harvey: I'm fine.

Ms. Myers: Let me read this to you.

Ms. Harvey: Yes ma'am.

Ms. Myers: It's from the King James Version of the Bible. Mark 6:4. "But Jesus, said

unto them, a prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and

among his own kin, and in his own house." You were the first African­

American woman to practice law in Scott County.

Ms. Harvey: Yes ma'am.

Ms. Myers: Your own hometown.

Ms. Harvey: Yes ma'am.

Ms. Myers: Your friends, your relatives, everybody. What made you decide to go back to

Scott County?

Ms. Harvey: My parents were experiencing some problems with city government there.

They owned 40 acres of land in Forest and the city wanted to go across my

parents' land and provide sewage to an all-white subdivision. Yet my parents

16 did not have sewage. They were using a septic, s-e-p-t-i-c, tank. That was

blatant discrimination and racism. So I was getting tired of the civil rights'

struggles and the bureaucracy associated with that where I was working. And

when I realized that my parents needed me, I had no reservations about going

home. So I went home and filed the lawsuit against the city and it was

immediately resolved. I realized then that that's where I was supposed to be.

Ms. Myers: What were the results?

Ms. Harvey: My parents got sewage. Instead of going across the property, they went down

the road like they should have and took a left and went on out to the

subdivision. Everybody who was in that route, black or white, got sewage, so

it was wonderful. You know my office is located on that land, and I just feel

real good about it.

Ms. Myers: Were there any male African-Americans lawyers in Scott County before you

began as a female?

Ms. Harvey: There are no other African-American lawyers, male or female, in Scott

County, in Leake County, Newton County, or Jasper County. There is one in

Neshoba County.

Ms. Myers: Do you know why?

Ms. Harvey: Most lawyers, African-American lawyers, would prefer going to a place

where they can get clients to walk in the door as opposed to having to go out

and find clients. Scott County has about 30,000 people and Forest has almost

7,000 people. Newton County has about 30,000 people; it's just not an

attractive area for lawyers who want to make money.

17 Ms. Myers: That was going to be my next question. Money, but apparently was not part

of the decision, was it?

Ms. Harvey: Money has never, ever motivated me to do anything. When I went to law

school, I went with the intention of changing the system. I took civil rights

and criminal law classes. So money never really motivated me. It sort of

caught me off-guard when I realized that I had to make some money in order

to survive and that the practice of law was the manner in which I had chosen,

subconsciously, to make money. But the practice has never been my sole

source of income. Six months out of law school, I started teaching at

Tougaloo College as a pre-law instructor. For a year, I received $150/month.

After that, I volunteered free of charge. I was a staff attorney with the

Lawyers Committee for two years and the pay was good. I was in private

practice in Forest and in addition to being in private practice, I worked with

the National Legal Services. I evaluated legal services programs across the

nation. I worked for a consulting firm out of Washington, D.C. called Quincy,

Q-u-i-n-c-y, Quincy Company. That was the only way I was able to maintain

a practice in Forest. It is small. I understand why people still don't come to

Forest, you know, especially African-Americans. It's very difficult to make a

living as a Black professional. I have never been one to solely practice law.

I've had to be involved in other challenges. Now I've had some good cases

involving nursing home litigation. That was profitable, but there was so much

work involved. I took it personal and identified with clients who suffered.

Then tort reform came and made it almost impossible to file a lawsuit and be

18 limited by a cap on damages. So it made it unattractive. And then I was tired

trials and traveling. God has blessed me. I can still practice law, in many

instances, without charging needy clients.

Ms. Myers: Okay. Well that's quite an honor. First of all, to be the first female and then,

even now, in all those counties put together. Do you think you received the

honor you deserved? It is quite deserving. Do you think you received the

honor? And how can you measure that?

Ms. Harvey: I really haven't thought of it like that.

Ms. Myers: Okay.

Ms. Harvey: There are times when I think, "Why are you still here in Forest? But I never

come up with an answer.

Ms. Myers: You're too old for one thing.

Ms. Harvey: You're right. I can't leave. But back then when I was Assistant Secretary of

State for 12 years and I lived in Forest, but I worked in Jackson. I always feel

that it's like you are naked at home, because everyone thinks they knew you

when you were young and they know your folks. I remember when I first

came home to practice and opened my office. My father would bring people

in there and say, "Connie, this is Johnny Jones. You remember he and I used

to . . . . I need you to help him get this. I need your help," I'd say, "Yes sir,

but, my fees are $75.00". He'd say, "Well, I'll take care of it." But it was

never taken care of. Once a man came to see me and he had been beaten by

the police. I was getting ready to handle the case and I told him my charges

and he said, "Well don't worry about that, I'm a member of the NAACP," and

19 pulled out his NAACP card. He assumed he would get free legal services. I

ended up representing him and getting some assistance and he may have paid

$100. I realized that many of my clients were poor and needed free legal

services. Shortly thereafter, we established a legal services program in Forest

and in Meridian. It was called East Mississippi Legal Services. Several years

after it was incorporated, I came Executive Director and was able to serve my

clients who couldn't afford to pay me. That's why it was so painful to see the

National Legal Services Program weakened and drastically cut under the

Reagan administration.

Ms. Myers: So you were paid by Legal Services?

Ms. Harvey: I was paid by Legal Services to help some of the individuals that I originally

represented as my clients.

Ms. Myers: So how do you handle that problem now? There's still some poor people out

there.

Ms. Harvey: Right now, I will try to work with them and, in many instances, I refere them

to lawyers, some of whom are my former students at Tougaloo College. I do

quite a bit of pro bono-work. As President of Scott County Bar Association, I

encourage lawyers to do pro bono work. If the person cannot afford it, I'll

take monthly payments. When I first started practicing, clients wanted to

bring me greens and sweet potatoes, instead of money, and they wanted to

wash my car, cut my yard, clean my office. We tried a little bit of that but I

got to a point where I had plenty of potatoes and greens, and no money. You

can't pay your light bill with sweet potatoes. Certain prospective clients

20 understood that I needed some currency they shared with lawyers uptown.

Sometimes my biggest problem was that Black people who have never seen a

black lawyer in com1, just didn't think it was possible that I could get them

what they needed and that was justice. And, sometimes, they were correct. I

was black and the players were white: the District Attorney, the judge, and

the jurors. So in their minds, we went in with the deck stacked against us.

But my position to my clients back then was that, I'm a good lawyer. We may

not win before this jury but we will appeal and hopefully win on appeal.

Because I stayed in forest and worked, I became a part of the community and

school system, and the church, I became an institution in Forest and Scott

County. And for that reason, I'm very comfortable bringing my legal career

to an end in Forest.

Ms. Myers: When you first moved back, did you receive any threats or vandalism upon

returning?

Ms. Harvey: I've always had people to say you shouldn't go home or you shouldn't stay

here -- be careful. In December, 2002, when my former client kidnapped me,

I recalled the many warnings that people had given me about the Klan doing

this and doing that and that's never really frightened me. I've been told that

the Klan has its eye on me. That meant nobody's going to bother me but the

Klan, and I know how to deal with them. So I just never really let anything

like that get in the way. I'm aware of it but that's all it deserves - an

awareness.

Ms. Myers: So you never really moved away from Forest?

21 Ms. Harvey: I never moved away from Forest. My family moved to Forest in 1954 when

Daddy got a job as a coach. I went to Tougaloo in 1963 and was there until I

graduated in 1967. But I came home on weekends and holidays. When I left

Tougaloo, I went to Camp Trywoody in Hyde Park, Poughkeepsie, New York,

for the summer. I came back, enrolled at the University and was at the

University until January, 1970. I worked in Jackson, which is about 40 miles

from Forest, and purchased a house there. After the Jackson State lawsuit was

lost in 1972, and my parents' need for me at home, I came back to Forest in

1973, purchase a home ( where I still live) and my father and I built an office

building.

Ms. Myers: Thomas Wolfe once wrote, "You can never go home again." Do you believe

that?

Ms. Harvey: You can never go home again as the person you were when you left. And

people will always remind you of the child you used to be, of how you used to

eat their cookies and how you loved to fight. When they do that, I think

there's a bit of pride in their continued association with you in a different role.

The biggest compliment that people could give me was, "you don't act like a

lawyer." It means that I'm still 'Connie' and that I will always be 'Connie,'

even though I have skills that I didn't have back then, I will always be Connie

and I enjoy that.

Ms. Myers: Okay. You mentioned some incidents that you've had in court. Do you feel

you received the same level of respect as your counterparts?

22 Ms. Harvey: No. When I first started off, I knew I was treated differently. Judge Porter

called me and treated me, in his words, as a "Nigger," who had no place in his

courtroom and was not welcome there. I encountered many white male

judges who were, for the most part, racists. They were products of their

environment. They had never seen a Black person in court, much less a black

lawyer and one who was not afraid of them. They knew I would defend my

clients at any risk. I had white judges, federal and state, who were cruel.

Harold Cox was by far one of the most despicable men I've ever met in my

life. I wondered how he managed to get to the bench. He was just a mean,

cruel person and it was not just restricted to African-Americans but he just did

not like African-Americans, period. And Judge L. B. Porter was a despicable

person. I realized, now in retrospect, he was just a mean, old, cruel, unhappy,

ugly man. And I see it now but back then I really couldn't understand it and

the exception was when judges were not cruel, it caught me off guard. Judge

Marcus Gordan was an exception. As D.A., he treated me like he treated

other lawyers - tough and cocky, but he never demeaned me like the former

D.A., Bill Johnson. When Judge Gordon ran for judge, I shared my concerns

regarding treatment of Black jurors. I told him that I had real serious issues

with how Black people were treated in the courts. And I pointed out, as one

example, when black potential jurors ( old men, old women) were called by the

court to determine whether or not they would serve as jurors, the previous

judges had referred to them as Mary, Susie, John, and Bob. I thought that was

unprofessional and quite demeaning. On the other hand, white jurors would

23 be called "Mrs." and "Mr.". I didn't know that it really registered with him until he became judge and we were sitting in the courtroom. Judge Gordan called "Mrs. so-and-so" and then, "Mrs. Ward" and she didn't move. He said again, "Mrs. Ward." She still didn't move. And he looked at her and got eye contact, and said, "Mrs. Ward, I just called your name." She responded, "Oh, my name is Mary." Sadly, she didn't even know that the title was hers. All she had heard was 'Mary'. I was so happy but I was also embarrassed because Mrs. Mary Ward didn't know that she deserved respect. That was unusual for a Mississippi judge in the late 1970's and early 1980's. That has always stuck in my mind.

24 Oral History of Constance Slaughter Harvey Interview 5 June 26, 2010

Ms Myers: ... That was one of your memorable and enjoyable incidents as a law student.

Tell us about that.

Ms. Harvey: Each summer while I was a student at the University, I would travel to New

York where we would have a Law Student's Civil Rights Research Council

Convention. We called it LSCRRC. There we would discuss our problems and

what our plans were for the future in dealing with civil rights problems that we

faced in our community. One day there were several black law students sitting

comparing experiences. I mentioned that we needed an organization exclusively

for black law students because we had problems that were not just civil rights

problems but problems of lack of unity . There may have been 40 or 50 students

as our group meeting at Rutgers. Later that afternoon, about 10 of us got

together and decided we wanted to pursue a national black law student

association. When the conference was over, we went into New York City and

stayed two days working on a blue print for the National Black American Law

Student Association. There were 10 of us and I was the only female. We went

back to our respective schools with the charge to establish local chapters of the

National Blacks American Law Student Association (NBALSA). When I

returned to the University, I met with James Winfield, one of my best friends in

law school. He became the first president of BALSA. That was the year I was

graduating. We had national meetings quite frequently. I'm really proud we still

have a National Black Law Student Association. In fact, I'll be meeting with

51157167vl them in August when we have our National Bar Association Convention in New

Orleans. It was originally National American Black Law Student Association

but they took American out and its now National Black Law Student

Association.

Ms Myers: So that's one of your most memorable?

Ms. Harvey: I really enjoyed that, the experience of organizing, of coming together,

addressing a need and laying a concrete foundation as opposed to just expressing

ideas and feelings. We needed something solid. When I look now at the black

students at the University of Mississippi School of Law, I feel so proud that there

is an entity that can help them with their problems. There were no entities there

for me. I didn't have, we didn't have anything organized where we really could

all commensurate and talk about the problems and provide support for each

other. We had nothing formal. In 1999, the Black law students at the University

dedicated their chapter to me and it's called the Constance Slaughter Harvey

Black Law Student Association. That was probably one of the greatest honors

I've ever received. I was visiting them monthly and provide assistance when

needed. You were kind enough to accompany me this year to the annual

banquet. A first year law student scholarship, second year law student

scholarship and third year law student scholarship are presented annually. I try

to help them financially because I had to work when I was in law school and I'm

glad I did because it kept me sane. But during your first year, you should not

work; you should just study. Some of those students have to work. Some are not

able to complete law school because they don't give enough time to their studies.

2 51157167vl It makes me feel so good to see students actually benefitting from the

investments that we made. I feel good about that.

Ms Myers: Yes, I do compliment you and I certainly enjoyed it. Thanks for inviting me. It

gave me an opportunity to see black students investing themselves in ways that

it's just commendable. Because we do see so much of the opposite. But they

certainly have a love and admiration for you.

Ms. Harvey: Vis-versa and I just love them.

Ms Myers: You mention that was an opportunity for them to discuss their problems. Were

they mainly legal problems or just problems in getting through law school?

Ms. Harvey: Problems with getting through law school and how to deal with law school

professors. Sometimes the grading is system questionable. There are problems

that are unique to those students. They need somebody to talk. Sometimes it's

good to have that peer to talk to but sometimes the peers are in the same

situations they are. So you need to have somebody with some experience who

has already been there. It's just a very rewarding experience to know that you

are nurturing a young person who is going the same path that you've gone.

Ms Myers: Its obvious that you love youth. Now let's talk about the Scott County Youth

Court. What is your position with the Scott County Youth Court?

Ms. Harvey: I am Scott Youth Court Prosecutor. Complaints are filed with me and I prepare

the necessary documents and then file a petition against the minor who is

accused of being a delinquent. We have court every Tuesday afternoon. I view

this job as an opportunity to talk to these minors and their parents to see how we

can prevent their appearance before the court again. If the offense is so great, I

3 51157167vl use it as an opportunity to really come down on them and give them the benefit

of the doubt. We had one guy who had 12 charges. He went to detention. Less

than a month later he was back before the court and he was sent to the training

school. He stayed there two months, came back and was before the court again.

It's sad but it's like a cycle. The biggest problem we have is that you don't

have parents who put their feet down, and in some instances, you don't have

parents at all. You have aunts, grandparents and siblings raising these minors. I

feel that God has blessed me to be able to work with young people who have

problems. I've been fairly successful working with young people in the court

system.

Ms Myers: You don't get lenient sometimes because you are a mother and you can

understand the hurt that mothers experience when they are in that situation?

Ms Myers: I don't look at it as being lenient. I try to be understanding. But when you have

a mother who will not demand respect for herself, it makes me unhappy. There

was this guy who kidnapped me. He called his mother a bitch and I took offense.

She told me, in front of him, that he didn't mean any harm. My response to her

was that he may not have meant any harm but it was offensive to me. And I

would think it would be offensive to her because she carried him 9 months and

he's going to call her a female dog? And you're going to tolerate it? Now that's

when my patience ran out. I told him to call her whatever he wanted to call her

at home, but in my presence, don't ever use that word again. If he did, I would

ask the court to address him publicly. He didn't do it but that's the one who

kidnapped me so it just shows you how far that went.

4 5ll57167vl Ms. Harvey: That incident did not deter you from remaining with the Youth Court?

Ms Myers: It did not. It just caused me to reevaluate the position that I had with Youth

Court. I could not defend youths any more. I tried but I had a flashback and I

couldn't do it. Now I feel that I can make more of a meaningful contribution as

prosecutor. So it helps because I've been on the other side and I pretty much

know when the youths are exaggerating. I've heard this before. You've told me

the same thing. You 're 16 now; you were 11 when you came in. So, it helps. It

helps.

Ms. Harvey: Is Youth Court open to the public?

Ms Myers: Youth Court is not open to the public. All Youth Court proceedings are

confidential. The only people who are present are the witnesses to that particular

case, the parents and the Youth Court personnel.

Ms Myers: Did you obtain additional security for your home or for your family after that

incident?

Ms. Harvey: Got two additional dogs. Got a smaller 38 handgun that I carry in my car and in

my office. Security is crucial. I got a fence and I already had home security but

you can never be too careful.

Ms Myers: Were there any other hair-raising incidents that you remember?

Ms. Harvey: The one about the poll watching in Marshall County when we were poll

watching for Hubert Humphreys and came out and was greeted by the Ku Klux

Klan.

Ms Myers: What about your adventures at Southern University?

5 51157167vl Ms. Harvey: Southern University. Yes, there've been so many challenging experiences.

Southern was a problem. Jackson State was a problem. The Highway Patrol,

and their surveillance of my activities. That was difficult. I would consider the

Jackson State trial very difficult. The kidnapping was too much - I didn't expect

that. I expected everything else but I didn't expect that. That was one that was

.... It really got me.

Ms Myers: Did he know it was you?

Ms. Harvey: It was designed. I understood he wanted to hurt me but he really needed the

money to buy some drugs. He had gone around to several boys asking them if

they would come with him. All of them told him you've got to be out of your

mind. She'll shoot you. He was just determined; he was so high when he came

over. I've never said anybody was bad or rotten to the core but this guy had such

contempt for black women. I'd heard that his mother had permitted him to be

used by men when he was a child. That was the one who had no respect for his

mother and I told him in my presence he would respect her. That's one of the

reasons I knew who the kidnappers was because of his pronunciation of bitch

had his signature on it. That incident baffled me, but surely as it happened, I

realized that God had something in mind for me, otherwise I would not have

survived it.

Ms Myers: Oh, I remember it. There's a class that had a project in Monterey, CA called

Parents in Control. Does Youth Court have anything such as that?

6 51157167vl Ms. Harvey: Youth Court, through the Department of Human of Services, has a parenting

class. They use it as measures to get parents, who are abusive or negligent with

their children, in a relationship for accountability.

Ms Myers: This parents in control is more proactive.

Ms. Harvey: Okay, well I'm sure it's not. I'm sure we don't have that.

Ms Myers: Scott County Bar Association., what do you know about that? What year did

you become a member of the Scott County Bar Association?

Ms. Harvey: I became a member of the Scott County Bar Association in 1975 but I never

went to a meeting and they very seldom met. After leaving the Secretary of

State's office, I joined again, and in 1998 I was elected president I've been

president since then.

Ms Myers: Oh, you joined the Scott County Bar Association? The only black female?

Ms. Harvey: The only black and the only woman.

Ms Myers: Okay, so what do you do as president?

Ms. Harvey: We have a good time. We have community projects: nursing home projects -

Christmas baskets for the nursing home residents. We take Easter baskets to the

nursing home. We now have a project where we provide school.supplies to

children who cannot afford to purchase school supplies. That's one of my

favorite projects. We've done for 5 years. When I returned to Forest in '96, we

started a school supply project from the Slaughter Memorial Library. In 2000,

the Scott County Bar Association cosponsored it. We now get a contribution for

that project from the Rotary Club. We are probably one of the most active bar

associations of our size in the state. We have meetings quarter! y. We have

7 51157167vl Christmas programs and meetings for our staff. In fact, this past Christmas we

had our Christmas Jeopardy luncheon. We had a judge who asked the questions.

He was Alex Trubec and the questions were about the lawyers.

Ms Myers: Who won?

Ms. Harvey: All staffers received a present. It was really a good time to bond. I had been

concerned about the male lawyers not really appreciating the female workers in

their office. In fact, shortly after I became president, I actually told them all the

female workers should get a rose for Valentine's Day and that would come from

our budget.

Ms Myers: How did you become president?

Ms. Harvey: We were having a 'boys night' at the bar meeting and somebody said we need to

elect officers. About 3 years later I decided I was tired of it and said we need to

nominate another president or get a new slate of officers. They disagreed. I said

I've done my thing but they said "who else can do it like you doing it?" I said,

'Nobody.' I enjoy it. The reputation, the image of lawyers in our community

has greatly improved. We have pro bono work and we're working now on

having a seminar where people can come and receive free legal advice. What I'd

like to do is have a senior citizens day where we'll have free legal advice, free

referrals and tell them where they can go. Hopefully we could get the lawyers to

get the doctors at local hospitals to join in on that. That's something that's on

the drawing board.

Ms Myers: Bar Commissioner? What is the function of the Bar Commissioner?

8 51157167vl Ms. Harvey: Bar Commissioners are people who operate the bar. It's like a board of directors

for the Bar Association. I was elected, the first African American and the first

female, to represent the gth Judicial District in Scott, and Newton, Leake and

Neshoba counties. I served for 4 years. We conducted the business for the Bar

Association. I was on several committees that dealt with professionalism of

attorneys. It was very interesting.

Ms Myers: Do you think your contributions as a female as Bar Commissioner changed the

legal system?

Ms. Harvey: I think the procedures that were used prior to my being on the board, I think they

changed. The men are much more aware of what they say and what they do. I

think it's much better. The questions that I always raised concerned whether or

not what we're about to do is right. If its morally right. As long as I can see that

the question causes them to think about what they're doing, it makes me feel

good.

Ms Myers: So what about your contributions as a black person? Does that bring about

change?

Ms. Harvey: Oh, yes, I'll always do that. That's instinctive. As a woman, its sort of my

second reaction. As an African American that's just automatic .... That's just a

part of me. Once upon a time when I was younger I would always raise the

question. Now I raise the thought without posing the question. It's very tactful

to have to have that role because you just can't sit back and relax. We have to

always be on top of it. When I was on the Girl Scout Board of Directors for

Central Mississippi, the majority of the Girl Scouts were African American.

9 51157167vl When I raised questions, in every meeting, I inquired about Black employment.

It got to the point where I think they were tired of it so they said, "Constance

we've not hired any blacks but we're still looking." Or, "Constance we've hired

two Blacks but we're still searching. That was an awesome responsibility to

have as part of your charge.

Ms Myers: Slaughter Memorial Foundation, Inc.? Tell me about that.

Ms. Harvey: That's an organization that was founded by my mother. She was a librarian at

heart. She loved books. She loved to travel. She was just a beautiful person.

When my father died in 1981, his office and my office were in one building and

she wanted to tum that building into a library or a reading room for the children

in the housing subdivision that was named in honor of my father. We did that.

We have a library where people come to read. We have special programs,

abstinence program, tutorial program, enhancement program, services for the

elderly and so forth. When my mother died in 1991, I was more determined then

ever to keep it alive. The building is used as a voting precinct in certain

elections and a meeting room for groups. It's not that large; our maximum is 60

people. We have a tutorial program after school, summer programs, school

supplies project, and Christmas supplies. If someone had a fire and they need

clothing or something, if we don't have it there, we coordinate and try to get it.

Ms Myers: Sounds like it does a lot. You mentioned the after school tutorial program. Is it

still very effective now?

Ms. Harvey: Its very effective. Our school board works better now to provide after-school

tutoring. It was costing too much to pay tutors, and that was coming out of my

10 51157167vl pocket. When I was able to have 2 or 3 tutors, I did. The needs are still being

met.

Ms Myers: Did you track any students who were enrolled in the tutorial program?

Ms. Harvey: Yes, ma'am, our graduation (high school) rate was excellent. We may have 30%

that just decided not to do anything with their life, after graduation. But we have

two students now who are in pre-medical programs. We have several who have

gone on to become honor students at colleges and universities. I'm just really

very pleased. The blessing is when they go away to school and come home, they

come by the library. It makes my heart feel so good. We've had several to come

back and tutor. So, yeah, I feel real positive.

Ms Myers: Okay, the library. Is there any federal funding or any kind of funding that you

get?

Ms. Harvey: We don't get any federal funding and we don't get any state funding. We had an

Abstinence Program - Y-WAIT, where we received a $25,000 grant for two

years. We had 58 kids in that program. We took train trips to Chicago and

Atlanta. They were wonderful experiences. Some kids had never been out of

state. We were able to reach quite a few young minds. With that I'm just so

thankful. Without that grant, we could have done it but it would have to come

out of the pockets of the parents. The Library is serving the purpose that Mama

really wanted to serve. That is to deal with young minds, train, help the young

minds to develop and nurture them in the positive areas of development.

Ms Myers: The books in the Library are what kinds of books?

11 51157167vl Ms. Harvey: We've all kinds of books and probably the best collection of Black books in this

area of Mississippi. We also have, when I do my travels, artifacts, souvenirs,

and books from my travels abroad. I've been to 15 countries or more ... I have

books for every country, souvenirs, clothes, photos, currency and so forth.

Ms Myers: Volunteer and community service, do you think the legal system has stifled your

creativity for you in volunteering?

Ms. Harvey: No, ma'am; I definitely don't.

Ms Myers: Not at all?

Ms. Harvey: I've tried to change the legal system by being creative. For instance with the

Scott County Bar Association, these lawyers had never sponsored community

services.

Ms Myers: Okay.

Ms. Harvey: So they were changed. I don't let any system or any organization define me or

limit my commitment or my creativity. If anything changes, it's the mission of

the particular organization.

Ms Myers: Good. Is there certain professionalism that is expected at all times from

attorneys?

Ms. Harvey: I think so. That's why I love it when they tell me you don't act like an attorney.

You don't look like an attorney. Generally trial lawyers are expected to have

dark suits and women are expected to wear dress suits, not pants. When I went

into it, I was probably the first female to wear pants in court. I was more

comfortable in pants. If I have a jury that looks very conservative, I won't ~ear

pants, I'll wear a dress or suit. The legal profession is conservative. It's very

12 51157167vl conservative because you are judged by what is precedent and what happened in

the past. It's built on that, which means that the legal system is very slow to

change.

Ms Myers: There is an expected professionalism?

Ms. Harvey: Very definitely. You look at lawyers now and their dress and they look almost

the same as lawyers 50 years ago. You don't have lawyers walking in with dred

locks they'll look at him/her strangely. When I wore my afro haircut, which is

about 40 years ago, they thought I was crazy. But it's become a part of me now

and I can still look professional in my own style and in my own way.

Ms Myers: So would you be frowned upon if you were doing the stinky leg at a retirement

party?

Ms. Harvey: Probably not.

Ms Myers: Okay. Are attorneys some time viewed as the enemy to the public?

Ms. Harvey: We're butts of jokes now. If anybody want to get a laugh, they'll tell a lawyer

joke and that's unfortunate. Some lawyers have permitted themselves to become

the butts of jokes. You have a few bad apples and the entire barrel stinks. That's

what's been happening with lawyers. Some are just so-interested in making

millions of dollars in a hurry, but then for those who are publicly disciplined, you

have thousands of good lawyers who are very serious about the oath and creed­

about helping those in need and also remembering that integrity is the key.

Ms Myers: Explain your decision to volunteer as an adjunct profession at Tougaloo.

Ms. Harvey: When I went to the law school in 1967, the only advice I had came from

Professor Ernest Borinski and Dr. Joe Huang. Dr. Borinski was a German and

13 5ll57167vl Dr. Huang was Chinese. I was a black female about to go to a white male

institution. Even though they both had my interest at heart, I was not truly

prepared for what was ahead. I was prepared for blatant racism but I was not

prepared for subtle racism. When times were hard at the university and I was

about to go off on somebody, fight and do all that, I felt the prayers of my

mother and grandfather. Once I was so angry, I just knew, I couldn't help it;

something came over me. I said, "Lord, if you let me out of this place without

killing somebody, I'll make certain it won't happen to anybody else from

Tougaloo College."

Ms Myers: So you volunteered and did that?

Ms. Harvey: Yes I volunteered and did that and it makes my heart so happy to have young

lawyers who were in my class to come up to me and say, "If you had not had that

class, I wouldn't have made it." I was adjunct professor from 1970 until 2006.

Ms Myers: Okay.

Ms. Harvey: And that's how I feel about those students at Tougaloo and then those pre law

students. Some of those students were prelaw students at Tougaloo and went on

to the University of Mississippi. In fact, Chynee Allen was president of the

Black Law Student Association at the University. She had been one of my

students at Tougaloo. She was the president when the BLSA Chapter was named

in my honor. That commitment to help young people was probably born out of

that desire to be faithful to the commitment I made to God.

Ms Myers: As a black woman, do you feel you made a greater impact on the students than a

white professor would have?

14 5ll57167vl Ms. Harvey: I have no doubt about that. What I try to teach from is experience and I'll tell

anybody if I haven't walked in your shoes, I can only imagine what you've been

through. If I've walked in your shoes, I can identify and empathize with what

you've been through and we can relate.

Ms Myers: That sounds good to me. Okay let's talk about patriotism. How patriotic do you

think you really are to the United States?

Ms. Harvey: I could probably say that as a black female there are so many questions that I

have about America's fidelity to its citizens. As one who has often criticized our

country for not affording to all its citizens the same rights and privileges, I've

had and still have some very serious issues about whether or not this country

lives up to the tenets of its founding documents. For a country to not provide

healthcare to its elders who have paid social security for years, for a country to

deny medical access to individuals who have worked to build this country, and

for a country not to live up to its promises, causes me great concern. The

question that you asked was about my patriotism. I guess it's like a sister or

brother; I love them in spite of their problems and imperfections.

Ms Myers: The loyalty is still there.

Ms. Harvey: Yes.

Ms Myers: So what political party do you identify with?

Ms. Harvey: I have been a Democrat all of my life. I have good friends who are Republicans. ·

Ms Myers: So why did you choose to be a Democrat?

Ms. Harvey: Because the Republican party has a platform that's mainly geared toward

individuals who have wealth.

15 51157167vl Ms Myers: Is that true? Because I've heard that all my life.

Ms. Harvey: It's true. You look at Haley Barbour. While we're dealing with the oil spill,

he's concerned about making certain that big businesses are not mistreated. I've

not heard him say anything about the little people who are not being taken care

of. As you know, Republicans have the reputation of being the party of the

powerful and wealthy and Democrats are perceived as being the party of the

poor. There are some Democrats who are extremely wealthy, and Republicans

who are not too wealthy. Both parties are just that; they're parties and they serve

the interests of those in charge.

Ms Myers: So are we free to form other political parties?

Ms. Harvey: Yes, ma'am. There is the Libertarian Party, the Green Party.

Ms Myers: The Tea Party?

Ms. Harvey: Well, the Tea Party, as I understand may be registered as a party.

Ms Myers: They're just gathering moss right now.

Ms. Harvey: Well I think that moss will be probably be turning to something. I think they're

probably getting ready to have their official documents filed and be recognized

as a party.

Ms Myers: Do you generally side with issues that women author or with issues concerning

women or do you look at the whole issue?

Ms. Harvey: I generally look at the issue.

Ms Myers: Okay.

Ms. Harvey: I'm not single minded to that extent. I may listen a little closer but insofar as the

issues, I'm not a single minded individual when it comes to that.

16 51157167vl Ms Myers: What is your favorite patriotic song and why?

Ms. Harvey: My favorite patriotic song is ....

Ms Myers: Not the Negro National Anthem?

Ms. Harvey: Well, you read my mind. In fact, that's the only one that I really closely identify

with. Now when I hear the Battle Hymn of Republic, I like that. The Star

Spangle Banner, it depends on who's singing it, I really like it. But, my favorite

patriotic song is the Black National Anthem, alk/a Lift Every Voice and Sing.

Ms Myers: My next question is what is the reason you stand when the National Anthem is

being played?

Ms. Harvey: Once upon a time I didn't stand. I sat down in defiance. That was when I was in

law school and I was going through my own crisis with this country not standing

up to the plate and doing what I thought it ought to do. I started thinking of my

father who was a veteran, my ex-husband who was a veteran. I stand thinking of

the men and women who have given their lives for this country. I stand when I

think ofMedgar Evers. I stand because I think of Dr. King and I think of

Malcolm X and I also think of one of my favorites, Muhammed Ali, a man

whose life was changed. Had he not been such a courageous man, he would

have been destroyed because he was accused of being unpatriotic when that was

not the case. The Supreme Court, the highest court in the land, pretty much

confirmed that he was a patriotic person and he was not guilty of treason and

turning against his country. He was a conscientious objector. But he media

portrayed him as unpatriotic and a communist. The biggest problem that I have

is that when you challenge the country for its policies, you are automatically

17 5I157167vl labeled a communist. That's how they deal with it. That's how the Citizens

Council and the Klu Klux Klan dealt with black people and white supporters

when they said, "Okay discrimination is wrong," then you're labelled a

communist. I've been accused of being unpatriotic. First I am reminded of a

statement made by First Lady Obama when she said that she was proud, for the

first time in her life, to be an American. Now that was taken all out of context.

Ms Myers: Yeah.

Ms. Harvey: It was taken out of context and that's the problem that I have with racism in

America. Had they listened to what she was saying, it would have shown that

she is a very patriotic person. She's been disappointed in the past but her

patriotism is well established now. So that's why I had to be careful when you

asked me that question. People deal with your patriotism in a way that supports

their argument or their perception of you. I'm patriotic but I'm also critical.

Ms Myers: Exactly, I think we all are. So what is the Negro National Anthem?

Ms. Harvey: "Lift every voice and sing til earth and heaven ring. Ring with the harmonies of

liberty." To me it represents the struggles that black people were and still are

involved in. It says "Let's march on til victory is won." It calls on God," God

of our weary years, God of our silent tears. Thou who has brought us thus far on

the way." It acknowledges that we will overcome only with God at our sides.

That's how we've gotten to where we are now. My hope and my prayer is that

we don't forget that we must walk together with God as our leader if we are to

ever make a change. If we are ever to solidify that change and make that change

a part of who we are, God has to be involved.

18 51157167vl Ms Myers: Would you be offended if the Negro National Anthem were played at an event

and your white counterparts did not stand.

Ms. Harvey: I would definitely not be offended because they don't know the significance of

the Anthem. I've had them try to sing it and didn't know the words. What

bothers me is I've seen some black people unable to sing because they don't

know the words and that bothers me. But for whites not to know the 'Black

National Anthem, the Negro National Anthem, or Life Every Voice and Sing,' it

doesn't bother me because they can't identify with it. And if they can identify

with it, they would know the words. But if they can't, I don't have any problems

with that.

Ms Myers: Would you defend a student who was put out of school because they did not

stand during the National Anthem?

Ms. Harvey: Sure. I most definitely would. At this point in my life, I look at what is at issue

and what is at stake. I don't think any child should be put out of school for not

standing when a particular song is being played. I definitely would.

Ms Myers: Good. Military. Were you in favor of the draft in the military?

Ms. Harvey: Never, because it was designed or used to take care of black boys and send them

off to was to die, mentally and/or physically. Take them away from home and

send them abroad to be killed. Very much opposed to the draft as it was

implemented when I was growing up.

Ms Myers: What is your position on women in the military?

Ms. Harvey: Have no problems whatsoever. Women have always led this country.

Ms Myers: Exactly.

19 51157167vl Ms. Harvey: I think it's a plus. I've seen some women I'd rather not fight; I'd rather face a

man than to face particular woman. But I have no problems at all. In fact, I

would encourage it.

Ms Myers: Women have been in all the wars but it was just in recent years they were

recognized as even been a part of the war.

Ms. Harvey: Yes, ma' am.

Ms Myers: They always looked at them as just nurses.

Ms. Harvey: Exactly.

Ms Myers: Even though they ran the war?

Ms. Harvey: You have women who are pilots and who taught men how to fly planes. Women

formed the nucleus for this country. Period. Nothing happens without a woman

being behind it. Nothing happens of any significance without women being part

of the motivating force of nurturing men to come up with these ideas. It's a

given. Women make this world go around. Mary was Jesus' mother and she

was a woman. She was a woman, and not properly recognized for her role, but

we're accustomed to doing and having that role of nonrecognition. But know

that we are responsible and we are the heartbeats.

Ms Myers: Speaking of women in the war, there were many black women in the wars.

Ms. Harvey: Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am.

Ms Myers: Even Sojourner Truth was a soldier.

Ms. Harvey: Sojourner Truth was indeed a soldier and she had a title like commander, captain

or sergeant. Yes, ma' am.

Ms Myers: Okay. Are you in favor of a different legal system for military crimes?

20 51157167vl Ms. Harvey: To a certain extent. I think that ifthere are different rules and regulations

regarding military life, then there ought to be a system that will be comparable to

those special rules.

Ms Myers: Do you have an opinion on troops fighting in the Iraq War or Afghanistan?

Ms. Harvey: I wish we had not gotten ourselves into that position. I personally have

difficulties accepting any war starting back with the Vietnam War. I just have

issues with and but, I don't like the War in Iraq or the War in Afghanistan. But

for a young person who's gone over there to represent us, I respect them. But

insofar as the War itself, I just have serious concerns about why we are there and

why we're killing people and why our young boys are being killed.

Ms Myers: What are we doing to make sure that when the day comes for us to pull out that

they won't get the same treatment that the men and women in the Vietnam War

received?

Ms. Harvey: We're doing nothing because we still don't want to give adequate benefits to

Veterans. The veterans hospitals are some of the worst. The Walter Reed

Hospital is not a good hospital. We still treat veterans like they're second class

citizens. We still treat veterans like they are fugitives. We treat them like

they're here on a visa. I just have very serious concerns. That's another one.

That's a concern that's really close to Veterans. It bothers me that they are

relegated to the status that they are now.

Ms Myers: The American Flag. What comes to your mind when you see the American Flag

displayed?

Ms. Harvey: Image of America.

21 51157167vl Ms Myers: Okay.

Ms. Harvey: It represents America. My heart doesn't stop beating. When I stop and think of

what it means to me, it's very special. But just to see an American Flag and say

whenever I see an American Flag, I grin. Now when I'm traveling abroad,

obviously when I see an American Flag, I grin; but when I see one here, it's

almost expected. You take it for granted.

Ms Myers: Right.

Ms. Harvey: But when you're abroad, when you see it, your heart is happy because you know

somebody, whether they're racist or not somebody, knows that there are good

things in America. You know that there's somebody who can speak English.

Ms Myers: Very good. Now we're going to talk about your reading. We are aware that you

enjoy reading and also writing. Which of the two is number one for you?

Ms. Harvey: I enjoy writing by moods. Writing is therapeutic for me. I used to write when I

was angry and I would write when I was sad. I love to write my feelings about

individuals, and I like to take that writing and send it to them in a card. Writing

is necessary, it's essential for my being. Reading once upon a time was a chore

because I had to read the law books and legal cases and all that. It was not really

relaxing. Now I read stuff that I don't even think about recalling. So it's

relaxing. But my preference is writing.

Ms Myers: Okay, so are your writings usually dealing with tort articles, or legal articles or

regulations?

Ms. Harvey: No, ma'am. I don't like to write about legal matters. I mean I have to do the

writings for my briefs and all of that. That's work. So I do that. But the things

22 5l l57167vl that I sit down and enjoy writing about my feelings and moods. Writing letters

to people, that's what I enjoy. I don't really enjoy writing briefs.

Ms Myers: Oh really?

Ms. Harvey: No, I don't. I've gotten to the point where I don't enjoy that. I do it and I do it.

It's just mundane. It's something I have to do. But as far as relaxing and

enjoying it, the readings that I do, books, articles that I read, I do it because it's

something that I enjoy. And the same thing for writing. I want to write to

people I really care about. People who've made a difference in my life. So

that's something I enjoy. I have to read and write in the legal profession. I

won't lie and say I enjoy that. I do it. It's like getting up in the morning and

doing certain things; you do it because you have to do it. But insofar as doing

something that pleasurable, that's not the right cup of tea.

Ms Myers: I hear you're a writer for the Scott County Times. Tell us about those articles.

Ms. Harvey: Yes, ma'am. Those articles for the Slaughter Library News come straight from

my head and heart. I find out what's happening in the community and Saturday

night or Sunday morning, I sit down at my computer and I write the articles.

Who's in the hospital. Who's been sick. Who's come back from school. How

students are doing in class. What's happening at the library. Any events that

happen during the week. I've done that since 1991. My mother started in 1988.

She was the first African American columnist for the Scott County Times. On

her deathbed, she asked me to continue writing for her and I told her I could not

because I thought it was a waste of time. When I saw how much it meant to her,

I did it and I've done it since then. The readership for the African American

23 51157167vl community and the white community has significantly increased since the

Slaughter Library Column. In fact, the column is probably the most popular

column. Whites read it as well as blacks because I include events and

happenings that are significant in relation to the Library. The people in the

column are diverse. And I've now included the Hispanic community and I put a

little Spanish in all my articles. Your letter to the Scott County Times about the

library and about me keeping that column going after my mother's death was

most appreciated. I have people to still talk about that letter. I appreciate that.

Ms Myers: Remember the ring I bought?

Ms. Harvey: Yes, ma'am.

Ms Myers: Okay, can you tell us about some other articles that you've written?

Ms. Harvey: I've written several articles for the University of Mississippi School of Law

publication. There are several articles that I've written dealing with racism.

Three or four are in books. We have one, "Anthology of the Civil Rights

Movement" and I have about a 20 page article there. There's a book , "Growing

Up in Mississippi", I wrote an article for that publication. When I was working

with the Lawyer's Committee, I wrote several articles about the Jackson State

case.

Ms Myers: Right.

Ms. Harvey: "Will the Circle Be Unbroken", contains an article and drafted.

Ms Myers: Any publications?

Ms. Harvey: I wrote a book on the Legal Status of Homemakers in Mississippi, that was

published in 1977. I've written publications for elections. I've also written a

24 51157167vl Law Journal articles for the University concerning elections and another

concerning my perception of the University of Mississippi Law School. I know

there are others but I just can't think of them now.

Ms Myers: Okay, maybe some other time.

Ms. Harvey: Yes, ma'am.

Ms Myers: With such an impressive life, do you see a book on Attorney Constance

Slaughter Harvey in the future?

Ms. Harvey: Yes, ma'am. I definitely do. I have so many notes. Every speech that I make I

prepare remarks. That's been going on for more than 40 years. My first speech

that I remember after I graduated from law school was in Canada. Unitarian

Universalist Church Convention. I wrote a speech. I have all of my speeches

from 1970 up until today. I'm going back through those speeches in order to get

additional materials for the book. But this experience is really helping me put

some order to what I want to include in the book. This experience, 'Trail

Blazers', is probably going to be the beginning of putting something down in

writing so I can share that with our young people. My advice to them is to

remain vigilant.

Ms Myers: Anything you'd like to add. This almost concludes our interview for today. I

must say that we will push to have one other interview. I think I've exhausted

you.

Ms Myers: But right now, can you give us a closing argument?

Ms. Harvey: The closing argument is that it makes me very humble to reminisce and realize

God's goodness to me.

25 51157167vl Ms Myers: Right.

Ms. Harvey: To realize that we've come so close to not being here. It's very important that

we utilize each moment to make this a better world. It's only when I sit down

and reflect like we've done that I realize that I have to stay on target and be

serious. I also realize in doing this project that I must enjoy what I'm doing

because only then can I say that I enjoy being God's servant in helping people.

I'd never really thought of it like that until this Project started and conversations

with you about this mission. We have to be serious about it. I just want to

express appreciation to you and to the Commission for affording us this

opportunity.

Ms Myers: I think your voice died down so make your last statement again.

Ms. Harvey: I want to thank the American Bar Association for Sponsoring ABA the Women

Trailblazers Project, for the opportunity to make a difference. The opportunity to

really share and be a part of individuals who've given so much of their lives to

make this a better world. Women are Trail Blazers and I'm just so pleased to see

the American Bar Association takes this on as a project and not put it on the back

shelf.

Ms Myers: I received a notice today about the same two that were on Trail Blazers on

CSPAN?

Ms. Harvey: Right.

Ms Myers: And we can discuss that at another time.

Ms. Harvey: Alright. Sounds good.

26 51157l67vl Ms Myers: It's very interesting. Thank you and we're signing off for today. And these will

be in the mail real soon.

Ms. Harvey: Thank you, ma'am.

27 51157167vl Constance Iona Slaughter Harvey Oral History Interview 6 August 12, 2010

Ms. Myers: This is the final formal interview with Attorney Constance Iona

Slaughter Harvey, a renowned civil rights trailblazer. This interview is

conducted by retired educator Verna M. Myers. It has been an

awesome and rewarding project being conducted on behalf of Women

Trailblazers in the Law, a project of the American Bar Association

Senior Lawyers Division. Special thanks is extended to Attorney

Slaughter Harvey for considering, suggesting, allowing me and having

trust and confidence in me to undertake such a prestigious opportunity.

This interview is being conducted in the Marriott Hotel in New Orleans,

Louisiana. Attorney Harvey is here attending the 85th Annual

Convention of the National Bar Association. Connie and eleven other

lawyers have been selected to be inducted into the National Bar

Association Hall of Fame. Now we have two other scheduled

interviews and those have been set aside to review the audio tapes and

edit the transcript. Mrs. Harvey, let the record show that you have been

conscious and extremely modest concerning all the awards you have

received. So today I desire to intrude on this privacy. Do I have your

permission to revisit and reflect on some subjects we have covered. But,

first I need your permission to go over some of your awards and let you

talk about them.

Ms. Harvey: You have my permission within certain perimeters.

EAST: 51537803vl Ms. Myers: Okay, I can work with that. Well, today we're going to talk about some of your

university experiences. At the university, what were your main concerns as the

first African American law student?

Ms. Harvey: Some of the concerns that I had were just basic concerns about housing, lack of

social outlets for African American and then African American students.

Ms. Myers: Speaking of housing, how was the housing for the African American students

that were there at the time?

Ms. Harvey: In the graduate area, we were part of the graduate students who lived in Ricks

Hall. When I say "we," when I went to law school in 1967, there were two

other black females. N ausead Stewart and Geraldine Harrington. Geraldine

was from Jackson State and Nausead was a teacher who had taught about 15

years. She graduated from Tougaloo College 1952, I believe. We lived in the

same dorm with other non-law students and there was a difference. The manner

in which the 'dorm mother' related to us, she and I could never get it off. She

always wanted to talk down to us or at least to me. You could tell that you were

not welcomed. Some of the other students were real nasty. When we took a

shower, the water might get very cold. I assumed they knew you were in the

shower and the water would get very cold and then in some instances it would

get very hot. That happened to me just once and I confronted the girl who

played with the water so there was no problem after that. It was an experience.

Ms. Myers: Were there any other experiences that showed the negative side of the

university?

Ms. Harvey: There were many experiences that showed the negative side of the university. I

- 2 - can honestly say that the negatives outweighed the positives. It was up to me to

tum those negatives into neutrals. Not into positives but into neutrals. Just

waking up in the mornings and having to go to the shower was a negative.

Going to the law school and walking from the dorm Richs Hall to Lamar Hall

(law school) could be a negative. This guy expected black people to get off the

sidewalk when he was on it. When I went to school I was wondering whether I

would meet him and whether or not we would get into it again. So there were

many negatives. In the cafeteria we very seldom ate in the cafeteria because of

the way negative remarks. We had a kitchen in the dormitory. I got into

arguments in the cafeteria. You were called 'nigger' and everything else in the

cafeteria. That was one of the reasons that I did not particularly enjoy eating in

the cafeteria. I especially enjoyed cooking my food or going out getting

something. The experiences in the cafeteria were very negative. Very, very

negative.

Ms. Myers: What about social gatherings? Did you guys attend any of those as black

students?

Ms. Harvey: I attended no social gatherings on campus. Absolutely not and that was one of

the reasons I thought it was paramount for us to get an organization of our own.

That led me to join black male law students from across the nation in forming

the National Black Law Students Association (NABLSA) at Rutgers in 1968.

We were not a part of the university social agenda. We had absolutely nothing

other than each other, and at that time, there were eight of us. We didn't have

each other. We had nothing. I was drawn to the Oxford community. The

- 3 - Oxford black community. I went to several games there and I had some friends

in Marshall County.

Ms. Myers: Law school experience really should be memorable. Is it different for the

students now or would you make any suggestions or changes to make law

school experience more memorable?

Ms. Harvey: Having to read as much as you have to read in law school and memorize it, I

think that would be memorable. With the young black law students there at the

university now, I'm very supportive of them because I know what they're

experiencing. I also know how blessed they are that they don't have to

experience certain things that we experienced. For a young black student at the

University of Mississippi School of Law now to hear a professor say 'niggra.'

It would probably send them to a mental institution. With me it almost sent me

to a mental institution but was something that I expected. I never expected and

never had a professor say 'negro' and actually say 'niggra.' Several would say

'niggra' if they used the word at all. So the experiences that law students

experience are quite different. However, subtle forms of racism still exist, the

University of Mississippi and any other law school. Racism is racism! And

there are forms of overt racism and there are forms that are not overt. I sense

that these young law students at the universities are experiencing racism that is

not overt.

Ms. Myers: This is about the University of Mississippi, Oxford Mississippi. Are there any

final words about the University you would like to say?

Ms. Harvey: I've seen quite a bit of cosmetic changes at the University. I am very hopeful

-4- that when the cosmetics are removed, that the university will reflect the

changes. I am not convinced, however, that that's the case.

Ms. Myers: Very good. Now let's get into your prestigious awards. You have had many

recognitions. You've met some very powerful people in your experiences. Let

us begin with your interaction with the former president, Jimmy Carter.

Discuss that for me and how this meeting affected you, personally and

professionally?

Ms. Harvey: I met Jimmy Carter when he was running for president and my first impression

was that this man cannot win. He smiled too much. There were two people

who were influential in my support of him. Fred Banks, the second African

American Mississippi Supreme Court Judge, and my mentor, and Lisa, a young

white female attorney. They convinced me that Carter was the man to go with.

I was particularly impressed with his spiritual and religious perspectives and I

became one of his regional field workers. Once he was elected, I became one

of his regional transition team persons. I attended his inauguration and visited

the White House on several occasions. I subsequently was appointed by

President Carter to serve on the Presidential Scholars Commission. In that

capacity I really came to know and appreciate his goodness and to observe his

reliance on his faith in making decisions. Some of the decisions were quite

unpopular but they were rooted in right and wrong. To this day, I still have

respect and admiration for him and his courage to do what is right r·egardless of

the popularity of his decision. I feel truly blessed to have known him and right

now he is still my favorite president.

- 5 - Ms. Myers: What exactly was the [R.] Jess Brown Award?

Ms. Harvey: R. Jess Brown was a black attorney in Mississippi who took on civil rights

cases without thinking of the consequences. He represented defendants who

were accused of heinous crimes such as "rape of a white woman," when in fact

there may have been a smile or a handshake to link the 'victim' and defendant.

Jess would go anywhere without letting anybody know he was going there.

When Mack Charles Parker was lynched in Poplaville, Mississippi, he was in

jail, taken from the jail and lynched. Jess had left about twenty minutes before

that happened and rumor had it that Jesse was supposed to have been lynched as

well. He had a special humor about himself. He would make you laugh at

things that would make anybody angry. He would make you laugh at your

problems. That's one of the ways we were able to really survive. Jess would

walk into a room, everybody would start laughing because that's the kind of

character he was. He would have the judges almost intimidated, and he could

almost get the judges to relax and get with his humor. The R. Jess Brown

Award was established in 1980, I believe, Magnolia Bar Association and was

awarded to the lawyers who displayed straits similar to Jess. That was very,

very special to me. Very special and I was one of the lawyers who suggested

that award. His wife, Jetha still lives in Jackson and she is working with us to

get the federal building named in honor of Jess Brown. It looks like with may

be successful in that effort. Jess was really one of my early heroes!

Ms. Myers: Are you saying you received an award for one of the things that R. Jess Brown

did, took on civil rights cases without thinking of the consequences?

- 6 - Ms. Harvey: [Affirmative]

Ms. Myers: Did you take on civil rights cases without thinking?

Ms. Harvey: Probably. There were times when injustice just made my blood actually boil.

My blood would boil to realize that this injustice would be permitted to occur

and no one would speak up. That was one of the reasons I had to step back. I

got too personally involved in speaking up for people who had been denied and

abused. Denied equal access and on top of that insult, they were abused. If you

want to keep your sanity, you have to sort of step back.

Ms. Myers: It sounds like you did think but you didn't mind taking the risk and suffering

the consequences of those kinds of civil rights cases?

Ms. Harvey: Yes ma'am.

Ms. Myers: Were there any other R. Jess Brown traits that you saw in yourself?

Ms. Harvey: I think what I admired most about him is he could take on adversity and see

some humor which would give him the stamina to continue. The older I get,

sometimes I can look at stuff and just say it's just so ridiculous, and then think

it's funny. I never I thought I would reach that point but that helps us keep our

sanity and our perspective. There are things people used to do when I was

young that would send me into orbit. Now I realize they did it intentionally

because they knew it would send me into orbit. Twenty years later, those same

people would try to do the same thing and I look at them just like they're crazy.

Some have said 'nigger' like it slipped and I didn't go off. I'd just look at them

but I won't ever forget that they said it. Back then twenty or thirty years ago, if

'nigger' got out of your mouth I would be heading towards you one way or the

- 7 - other; I saw that in Jess. He wouldn't let anything become personal to the point

that it interfered with his objectivity or his goal.

Ms. Myers: Discuss your meeting with the former Congresswoman, Shirley Chisholm, as an

attorney meeting with her or just as a person meeting with her.

Ms. Harvey: Shirley Chisholm was a part of the Women's Action Alliance (WAA) that we

started in 1971. Gloria Steinham, Franklin Thomas and Marlo Thomas were a

part of it (WAA) and from that came 'Ms. Magazine'. I was overwhelmingly

impressed with Shirley Chisholm. First of all, she was a Delta and I liked the

fact that she had a beautiful accent, that I thought was Brooklyn but then I

realized that she was from the Islands. I just thought she was an incredible

person. I don't think she understood her strength. What I admired most about

her was her speaking out and identifying the problems black women had

separate and apart from white women. She did that at a time when it was not

popular. There was a struggle, a little strife between the black movement and

the feminine movement. I catered to the black movement prior to my meeting

Shirley Chisholm. When I met her I understood the commonality and I

appreciated that. She was able to .cross that bridge. She was respected by both

white and black women. The difficulties that sometimes surfaced came from

black men. The concern at times would be that you'd have to make a choice.

You're either black or a you're a woman. Our response had to be with both. In

order to liberate the female part of me, I'm going to have to work on that end.

In order to liberate the black part of me, I'm to have to work on that end. I can

do them together. There were some black women who had difficulty in saying

- 8 - that because you would be accused of not really being concerned about your

race. I realized there was an medium; you could do both. I refused to let

anybody put me in a corner that did have to do one or the other. Now I'm

concerned that there are so many people who have made that choice. I always

come back and say I could put on a hat and cover my chest and you wouldn't

know whether I was a man or a woman. But I'd have to put on a whole bunch

of false faces and cover my hands for you not to realize I'm black. I don't let

anybody tie me into one or the other. I don't believe in multiple choice. If I do,

give me two choices or else I'll take nothing. Shirley Chisholm made that

impression and I'll always remember her as helping me to deal with that two

for; two for the price of one.

Ms. Myers: Good answer. You mentioned she was a Delta. Now explain a Delta for those

who do not know.

Ms. Harvey: Okay. Delta Sigma Theta Sorority is comprised of women who came together

in 1913 and whose mission was to serve the needs of people. We're a service

organization and were originally a part of another organization that we felt was

not heading in the direction that we ought to go if we wanted to be recognized

as free people. We established our sorority as an educational, service, and

social action entity. Obviously we're involved in the arts and humanities and so

forth. But I became a Delta because or Tougaloo College the sorority was

concerned about voter registration and voter education and so forth. It became

a part of my life. Obviously I'm a life member but when I realized that I had

that in common with Shirley Chisholm, our bonds were greater. But she had a

- 9 - message before I realized that she was a Delta, my sorority.

Ms. Myers: Tell about the impact that receiving the Mississippi State University

Distinguished Service Award in 1987 had on you.

Ms. Harvey: It was one that totally surprised me. Mississippi State, I thought, was much

more progressive than the University of Mississippi when I was there. They

had the first African American on their football team. The University of

Mississippi vowed under, Johnny Vaught they would never have a black to run

the ball for him. Mississippi State bite the bullet. In addition, Mississippi State

had some real issues with the legislature because their basketball team was

invited to a championship playoff, I believe and at the playoff, they had to play

a black team. The legislature went berserk, went to court and the court ordered

them not to go. The coach and the president of the University defied the

legislature and did not serve the coach with that injunction. The coach managed

to leave, get out of state and the basketball team left on a different flight. They

were able to play. They're not like the University of Mississippi. That part of

their history demanded my respect. When I was asked to accept the award, I

cried because it was just too much for me. It made a difference. In fact, I've

been offered a the opportunity to teach (Law and Civil Rights) at Mississippi

State. It was a gesture for me which was very much appreciated.

Ms. Myers: Thank you and let the record reflect that Mississippi State and the University of

Mississippi are two different entities.

Ms. Harvey: Yes, ma'am. Mississippi State is at Starkville and the University of Mississippi

is in Oxford.

- 10 - Ms. Myers: In 1990, you received the Distinguished Black Mississippian Award from the

University of Mississippi. Did that impact your career at all?

Ms. Harvey: I really wouldn't say it impacted my career. It made a difference, not just to

me, but to my mother, who was alive then. When I was notified by Chancellor

Gerald Turner that I had been selected, my initial reaction was I don't want it. I

meant that. I did not want the honor because I really didn't understand. Why

now? I never marched at the University graduation. When I left, I left. My

mother told me that it was very important to her, my father, and grandfather,

that the University recognize me because I'd never been recognized and that

was twenty years later. When I looked at the honorees I felt more honored.

Sister Thea Bowman, a Catholic sister, was honored; Father Brother Joe Dyer

accepted for her. There were six of us. Dr. Margaret Walker Alexander who

was one of my clients and author of "Jubilee" were honored. Osborn Bell, who

was the first African American Sheriff since reconstruction, was honored. He

was honored after he was murdered. Dr. Walter Washington who was President

of Alcorn State University. He was also one of my father's friends. So I

considered it to be a real recognition. The fact that my mother wanted me to

accept it so much was very important. My mother, my daughter, and my

husband went to the University and the experience there was more rewarding

for my mother and daughter. I walked the campus with my daughter and I had

unpleasant experiences just by thinking and walking. It somewhat therapeutic

but it was also a realization that the more things change, the more they stay the

same.

- 11 - Ms. Myers: In December, 2001, again you received an award from the University of

Mississippi. It was the University of Mississippi Law School Public Service

Award. Had you begun to revisit your image of the school by then?

Ms. Harvey: At that time, there was a black dean, Lewis Westerfield to give me the honor

was impressive. That started to change my outlook and my attitude toward the

University at that time.

Ms. Myers: Okay. There is a church on campus and when you drive past St. John Church in

Oxford, what memories and feelings crop up in your mind about St. John

Church?

Ms. Harvey: St. John is a Catholic church. It was the church I went to when I first got to the

campus. There's this guy from Iowa who told his children to get up because

they couldn't sit next to me. That one experience caused me to never to go

back to the church while I was at the University. Since that time, there is a new

church there. Ironically there was a black priest there, Father Joe Dyer, who is

now my priest in Forest. For ten years he led that church, and spearheaded the

drive to get the multimillion dollar church. I have mixed emotions when I go

by there. I think of the little children who jumped up as if I had a disease -and

did what their father told them to do. Imagine a black priest leading them into

such a great accomplishment. So, I have mixed emotions about that.

Ms. Myers: Okay. More awards from Tougaloo College. In 2000, you were inducted into

the College National Alumni Association Hall of Fame for Government and

Law. Did that come as a surprise to you?

Ms. Harvey: I thought it was long overdue. I'm trying to be modest. I appreciate it very

- 12 - much but I was the first female president of the student body at Tougaloo. I had

pretty much given so very much of my personal life to Tougaloo. I'm not

saying I'm not grateful, but it was overdue -- I taught at Tougaloo as a

volunteer adjunct professor from August 1970 up until 2006. I knew that the

achievements I managed to accomplish for Tougaloo and for black people

should have been acknowledged. No, I was not surprised.

Ms. Myers: Good. In 2002, you were elected Tougaloo College's Alumni of the Year.

Now accepting the awards from Tougaloo College and the award from the

University of Mississippi, which of the two impacted your heart the most?

Ms. Harvey: The recognition from the University of Mississippi. Both were very, very

special times in my life. I guess I can say, with all honesty, I somewhat

expected the recognition from Tougaloo because my parents, grand and great­

grandparents, and I had given Tougaloo so very much of our lives especially in

our commitment to quality education. The University of Mississippi was a

different relationship. I want to believe that the University officials who made

the awards or the selections, were honest in their critique of my worthiness to

receive the awards. The fact that the awards were made and the feelings that I

experienced in accepting those awards were just awesome. I didn't expect the

recognition from the University of Mississippi School of Law and I was

surprised and I appreciated it. I expected the recognition from Tougaloo

College; I was surprised and I appreciated it.

Ms. Myers: Talk about the service on the Tougaloo College Board of Trustees. Why did

you serve and what difference did it make on the College or the students?

- 13 - Ms. Harvey: I was elected by the membership to serve as their representative on the Board of

Trustees and it was quite an ordeal. I was a voice that could not be silenced and

if I had a question I raised the question. There was one other female on the

board who rarely attended when I was there. Quite often I found myself being

alone and having no one to be supportive of the positions that I took. I was an

advocate for the students and alumni. I was often accused of not looking at the

business as a college but from a student perspective and I never apologized for

that. I questioned all including the president. There were allegations of

improper behavior on the part of some faculty members. I raised the question

as to whether or not there was the same improper behaviors on the part of

administrators. It was never boring. I resigned after the president agreed to

step aside. It was an experience I felt God had ordered me -- a position he had

placed me in, and I felt I had to speak from a perspective that was not a part of

the traditional board of directors. It was a challenge and it was an opportunity

and one that I enjoyed.

Ms. Myers: Did this impact your career that would make you really happy that you were an

attorney or a civil rights attorney, or did it make you want to change your career

focus?

Ms. Harvey: The service on the Board at Tougaloo?

Ms. Myers: Right.

Ms. Harvey: It made me feel more committed to speaking out for people who didn't have

effective advocates. It just let me know that regardless of the setting -- board

room courtroom or house, you had to be consistent. I wanted to remind

- 14 - policymakers that there are individuals out there who nobody thinks about.

Unless you constantly remind them, the world will go on and rules will be made

and policy will be shaped that totally excludes those people who are not in the

boardrooms. I just have serious issues with that.

Ms. Myers: Okay. You received the Margaret Brent Women Lawyer of Achievement

Award in 2006?

Ms. Harvey: Yes, ma'am.

Ms. Myers: In Honolulu, Hawaii?

Ms. Harvey: Yes, ma'am.

Ms. Myers: Okay, other than enjoying the beach, what impact did that Award have on you?

Ms. Harvey: That was probably the A ward that made me numb. The audience was huge and

yet there were so few African Americans there. But the beauty of it was that

there were people from all over the world. The pomp and circumstances

associated with that was just awesome! She's Kathleen Kennedy, I can't think

of her married name, was the speaker and it was just breathtaking. It was

awesome. Overwhelming. Of all the honors I have received, that was one I

really had to digest and get myself together. I thought that I didn't deserve to

be honored with these women. But then when I started breaking it down, I say,

well, yeah, I paid some dues. It was just awesome. I think the fact that it was

in Hawaii, the native language and native dresses and dancers, pomp and

circumstances made the event more special, and the people coming in. And

then to say that of all the female attorneys in the world, the Bar Association

honored me and five other women -- that brought tears to my eyes. That was

- 15 - one I did not expect and I still have a difficult time believing that I was selected

for that honor. It was awesome.

Ms. Myers: How did they find you? You're from Mississippi?

Ms. Harvey: That was my question when they told me that I had been selected. In 1970, I

joined the American Bar Association. I've consistently supported the Bar

Association. I'm a member of the American Bar Fellows. I sense you had

people in positions to select honorees who understood the challenges that

women lawyers face. Double burdens that African American women lawyers

face; African American women lawyers who practice law in the south; African

American women who practice law in Mississippi. The fact that I practiced law

for 35 years in different capacities. Not just as a civil rights attorney, not just as

an attorney with legal services, not just as an attorney with the Governor's

Office or as Assistant Secretary of State, but one who has and continues to be

there and to challenge the system regardless of the consequences or the expense

involved in challenging the system. I know Margaret Brent had similar vision.

I applaud the selection committee on really looking around and reaching out to

make certain that the diversity of activities of women lawyers in ABA was

recognized.

Ms. Myers: Did Mississippi understand and appreciate the honor that you received from this

award?

Ms. Harvey: I don't think so. There was not much publicity -

Ms. Myers: Exactly.

Ms. Harvey: So therefore it was not a Mississippi recognition award. That's why I say when

- 16 - I looked out in the audience as I made my acceptance speech, I saw people from

all over the world. It was then I realized I had a real good connection with my

global perspective. As opposed to changing Mississippi, the world has to

change and when I saw that in 2006, it reaffirmed that inner calling to travel this

world and see what else there is for me to do to alleviate human suffering, and

pain, and injustices. Not just in the legal system but anywhere. It really didn't

matter that Mississippians didn't rally to the cause and say, Congratulations and

I didn't expect it. That was not what that was about. The fact that you see all

these people in this room stand up -- just made me more determined to continue

to fight for equal justice in Mississippi, America and also to do what I could in

Ethiopia, Nigeria, Kenya, Spain and other places. The Margaret Brent Award

really touched me at a time when I was evaluating my life and contributions.

Ms. Myers: Okay. Did that start a beginning for you on multicultural education or

embracing cultures of others as opposed to black or white would?

Ms. Harvey: Right. I'd never thought of it like that and the answer is probably that it

cemented what I had started to do.

Ms. Myers: Right.

Ms. Harvey: With the Hispanics coming to my hometown, home county, I am fortunate to

work very closely with the Hispanic community, especially with the Catholic

Hispanics. I feel really good about that. I'm taking Spanish and I can say greet,

count, and speak some Spanish. That makes all the difference in the world in

making individuals feel welcome. And I'm also very active in the Indian,

(Choctaw) community. I am chairwoman of Choctaw Legal Defense. I now

- 17 - understand that this is a global society; it's just not black and white. Its global

and America needs to get on the ball to be about having a global perspective.

We don't need to go overseas or abroad. We have that mixing bowl in

America. We have that mixing bowl in Scott County, and we need to be much

more aware of the need to be inclusive and stop being so full of hatred when it

comes to people who are different. I guess I can better understand why whites

fought giving Black people the same rights they had. That's because they

didn't know us. The same people who fought to keep Black people enslaved,

mentally, physically, psychologically and so forth, are the same people who are

fighting to keep Hispanics working here for nothing and then sending them

back home. They're the same people who don't feel that Choctaw Indians

deserve to determine their own lives or to shape their own destiny. I'm seeing

that it's really a fear of not knowing what's out there. A fear of the difference.

I think that Brent Award made me start dealing with all of that.

Ms. Myers: How has this impacted your legal career today with the many Hispanics in Scott

Has this helped your profession at all?

Ms. Harvey: Not really, because right now I'm not really into building my practice.

Ms. Myers: Okay.

Ms. Harvey: I'm into winding it down to a point where I can enjoy the practice and make a

difference. I provide legal services to Hispanics on a pro bona basis. I work

with the Sheriff and Police Departments on their policy to arrest Hispanics on

Friday afternoons when they get paid. They end up using their entire check for

bond. I fight that. With the Indian, Choctaw community, I'm on their Legal

- 18 - Defense Board as Chairman. I work with them to try to make certain that they

understand responsibility and that's very difficult. I'm never bored. I'm still

trying to get black children to understand who they are and a sense of self

respect and self esteem. I am trying to get Hispanics to understand that their

languages should never be a barrier, it's a plus. Then I try to get the Choctaws

to understand and appreciate their strength and their legacy. Their legacy is

awesome. So it keeps me busy and I consider that to be challenging and

extremely rewarding.

Ms. Myers: Well, Ms. Constance Slaughter Harvey, we need to get ready to get another

award. So, we're going to sign off for now and pick this up later on. Thank

you for all your answers and we'll get back to you.

Ms. Harvey: Thank you. I appreciate you.

Ms. Myers: Ms. Harvey, we have just returned from another prestigious event and here is

another star in your crown of awards ... mainly an induction ceremony. The

National Bar Association inducted 12 lawyers who have been licensed to

practice for 40+ years and who have made significant contributions to the cause

of justice. I am proud to announce that you were one of the 12 who joined a

legacy of inductees. Congratulations

Ms. Harvey: Thank you.

Ms. Myers Congratulations are extended to you and thank you for inviting me to share this

honor with you. Was this honor any different from the others?

Ms. Harvey: I think so. I learned so much about my legacy and the contributions of African

American lawyers and judges ... most of which I was not really familiar with.

- 19 - It was humbling and I was really touched by it. I appreciate the shoulders that

were provided for me without my knowledge. I had no idea that these people

had endured as such pain and still rose from the ashes. It was very significant.

Ms. Myers: After listening to the introductions of the inductees and things that they have

done, do you really feel now that you are always on target as a civil rights

lawyer?

Ms. Harvey: I think I was. I was perhaps in my own world which was filled with, for the

most part, a lot of distrust of the legal system and quite a bit of anger for the

injustices that Black people suffered and were forced to suffer. If I had to do it

all over, however, I want to think that I would have done it differently. But

when I really press that concern, I am not certain.

Ms. Myers: Okay. Well, congratulations again and I hope you receive many, many more

awards that you so richly deserve. Now back to the awards you already have,

what about the Susie Blue Buchanan Award in 2004. How did that impact you?

Ms. Harvey: It was significant because it came from the Mississippi State Bar Association.

The Women in the Profession Committee. And there were at least 10 women

who seriously wanted that recognition. I was not really competing for it. I

thought that there were other women who were probably more deserving of it

than I was. But I think they understood that I had practiced and been a part of

the Bar Association for 30-plus years at that time. I managed to win out over a

Supreme Court Justice, who really wanted it, I'm sure, and a law school

professor, who really wanted it. There were women who really wanted that to

be a part of their honors. I was honored, but I had never actually thought about

- 20 - receiving it. And I was surprised when I got it.

Ms. Myers: Did it enhance your career at all, after receiving this award?

Ms. Harvey: It probably did but so far as making me feel more important or special, it did

not. I guess just having a title or having an honor adds to your resume. For that

I'm thankful. But as far as changing me and my perspective of what

contributions I have made, I really don't think it had that impact.

Ms. Myers: The American Young Political Leaders. Discuss that award.

Ms. Harvey: That was 1987. That is a program where young political leaders are selected to

represent the United States through the Democratic and Republic Parties. I was

one of 12 leaders who went to Russia and we served as the official young group

from America. There were two women one who was Chair of the Women

Republicans, and me. And I represented the Democratic Party in Mississippi.

There was one other Black and he was, at that time Special Assistant to the late

Representative Mickey Leland, a man that I truly admired and respected. Some

of the guys in that program later became representatives. One from Maine and

the other one, was President Reagan's Assistant. I always thought he was in

another world. He seemed to enjoy that. That was one of the most interesting

experiences I've had in my life. When my daughter, Constance Olivia, was six

years, I had to leave her around Christmas to go to the Union of Soviet Socialist

Republic. That was very, very, very interesting. I had been afraid to look at

water and when we landed in Moscow, and stayed there for a week or so, we

then went down to the Republic of Georgia which is near the Turkish border.

We went to a town called Tbilisi. There we were given the option of getting on

- 21 - this huge ship which was very crudely built, standing on the dock with 4 or 5

Russians who were - big men with mink hats on. And they didn't smile. So I

had told everybody I'm not going, "I'm not getting on the water because I'm

afraid of water." They said "okay, we understand that." The Mayor of Macon,

Georgia, a young Democrat said "I'm not getting on the ship either." So we

were content until he decided "Well, Connie I'm not going to stay on the shore

with these men." And I said, "Well I'm staying." And when he got on the ship,

I looked at these men and their eyes were turned on me. I just really got a fear

that I've never had in my life. Worse than the Klan fear. And I rushed onto the

ship. The boat was stinky, there was an odor and just 'yuck.' But I learned

then that we do things that we are not always comfortable with. So I asked

myself if I rather die on the water, drown, or would I rather be murdered by

these men. So I opted to drown. I appreciate that experience for many things,

but I learned in Russia not to be afraid of water. And that was a great

accomplishment for me. But I enjoyed the experience. It was excellent, it was

absolutely excellent.

Ms. Myers: How did that help the civil rights movement or the legal movement?

Ms. Harvey: I learned a lesson at the airport when we landed in Moscow when they were

going through my luggage, they almost tore my personal items apart, and they

spoke no English and I spoke no Russian. I told our guide that I was very

annoyed because the Russians had no right to tear my personal items apart. I

told the guide that I knew my rights." And the guide turned to me, he said,

"You don't have any rights, you're in Russia." And that slapped me in my face.

- 22 - I realized then that he was absolutely right. But I kept telling myself that in

America, I knew my rights but sometimes they were denied me. But in Russia,

I couldn't even talk about rights, because I had none. And I also was able to

compare common decency that was afforded in Russia that I had to demand in

America. And then I looked at the coldness in attitudes at times from the

Russians and I longed for the warmth in attitudes from Americans. So it was an

eye opening experience for me and that was really one of the first trips that I

had taken other than to Mexico, or San Juan or to Canada. This was the first

experience I had going abroad in and visiting a Communist country. And it was

an experience I'll always remember.

Ms. Myers: When you talk about young, are you talking about young in age or young in the

legal field?

Ms. Harvey: You had to be under 40 in order to qualify and at that time I was under 40. Just

made it.

Ms. Myers: And was that quite a while ago.

Ms. Harvey: That was in 1986.

Ms. Myers: Okay.

Ms. Harvey: I was so thankful that I had made it just in time. Praise the Lord. I just made it.

Ms. Myers: And that award is still available to people today?

Ms. Harvey: That program, they're downsizing it, but it's an honors award that's still

available.

Ms. Myers: You also received two fellowships. Can you tell us something about those two

fellowships?

- 23 - Ms. Harvey: The Henry Toll Fellowship was a fellowship experience that I received while I

was working with state government in 1991. This was a week-long intensive

leadership program and I was one of 32 fellows selected from across the nation.

The other was The Governor's Center at Duke University in 1989. I believe we

were there a week also. I received quite a bit of experience and enjoyed

working with my counterparts in other states. I truly enjoyed that. The Duke

University program was one that I really valued. We learned so much about

how to negotiate and how to interact with people. I especially enjoyed the art of

negotiation and the negotiation training we received. That was one that I

thought was probably more challenging than Henry Toll.

Ms. Myers: These were just some of the accomplishments that I picked out. Do you have

any others that you want to talk about? Awards, accomplishments, prestigious

recognitions?

Ms. Harvey: I think you've done an excellent job in covering the awards and the honors that

I've received.

Ms. Myers: Good. What exactly is your affiliation with the Catholic faith, and are you

holding any offices with the Church?

Ms. Harvey: I became a Catholic in 1966 at Tougaloo College. Father Larry Watts was

instrumental in getting me involved in the Catholic Church. Father Watts was

very active in the Movement. He was one of the most gentle people I've ever

known in my life. I understood his love for the Catholic Church. I was

Catholic when I went to the University of the Mississippi School of Law. I was

so disappointed in the reception I received at the Church there that I caUed

- 24 - Father Larry.

Date: August 12, 2010

Ms. Harvey: .... And with his usual air of confidence, he assured me that that type of

treatment was not typical in the Catholic church. I did not attend the Catholic

church at all while I was at the University which was from 1967 until January

1970. When I graduated from law school, I came to Jackson and I became

active in the Christ the King Church on Lynch Street, by Jackson State College

was pretty active there as a parishioner and I did sing in the choir some times.

Then, when I moved back to Forest permanently, in 1973, I became active in St.

Michael Catholic Church under Father Bill Englehart who turned out to be my

favorite priest next to Father Larry. I stayed there until I got married. In 1984,

I believe, I became active again at St. Michael's and stayed there for a couple of

years and then sort of became an alienated Catholic. In 1990, I got my divorce

and in 1991, my mother passed. After a vehicle accident where I'd been

thinking about my mother, I felt the need to return to church. In 1992 I went

back and have been extremely active in St. Michael Catholic Church since then.

- Also at Diocese of Jackson, I've served on several boards including Catholic

Charities which is a social action type board. I've served on that board for

about ten years. Now I am on the local Pastoral Council. I was on the Bishop's

Pastoral Council for three or four years. So, I'm very, very active in the

Catholic Church.

Ms. Myers: Talk about boards, about the Legal Services Boards of Directors, North

Mississippi, Central, East, and Choctaw?

- 25 - Ms. Harvey: When I was in law school, I started working with North Mississippi Rural Legal

Services (NMRLS) as a paralegal. After graduation, I became a member of the

NMRLS board in 197 0. I remained on that board until 1991. During that time

I also served as a board member of Central Mississippi Legal Services in

Jackson. It was Community Legal Services at the time I started working on that

board. In 1977, I became one of the founders of East Mississippi Legal

Services (EMLS). I could not see my clients who needed legal services do

without basics to pay for my legal services. Because of that, I joined several

other persons and we incorporated EMLS. I got off the board and became

assistant director and then director of EMLS. Recently I serve as president of

the board of director of Choctaw Legal Defense. I really enjoy that. When I

was assistant director of EMLS, I opened an office on the Choctaw Reservation.

That was one of the things I really hated to leave when I went with the

Governor's Office. Legal services is an intimate part of my life. I was just

drawn to making certain that legal service are available to individuals who

needed them. My biggest regret is that the legal services program was totally

gutted. The core of it was just destroyed under the Reagan Administration and

was never properly restored. I really have some concerns about the program.

People need access to legal services programs. Now the Mississippi Bar

Association has a pro bono program that I am actively involved in. It has

volunteer lawyers. I do quite a bit as you well know with people who cannot

afford to pay. When I first started out, patients paid in greens, pork, etc. I

accepted it and then I realized that my light bill had to be paid and greens, or

- 26 - plums or jams and jellies wouldn't pay for that. Now I'm a point where if I

want to do some pro bono, I do it.

Ms. Myers: Okay. Have you received any appointments on any other government

committees that you are willing to discuss?

Ms. Harvey: I think earlier we talked about the Presidential Scholar's Commission.

Ms. Myers: We did.

Ms. Harvey: That was one that I truly, truly enjoyed. There was a civic center board for

civic education, I believe, and it was out of California. I served on that, it was a

Bicentennial Commission that was formed by the former Supreme Court Chief

Justice Warren Berger. It was a commission that encouraged young people to

participate in debates in all of the states. Students would come to Washington

and participate in debates. The Commission judges would select the winner.

There was a publication they were required to read and I assisted in editing and

preparing that publication. It was an experience wherein I really realized the

importance of introducing young people to the founding documents of our

country. My greatest disappointment was that there were very few African

Americans, very, very, very few Indian, Hispanic or Choctaw students in the

competition. It was called the National Bicentennial Competition and I was a

National Bicentennial Competition Judge from 1989 until 1994. I valued very

much the opportunity to see young people - high school students from other

parts of the other nations excel in debates. I truly enjoyed that. I was on that

Commission for about four years. I really, really enjoyed that. I'm sure there

may be others but right now I'm at a loss as to what others I can think of.

- 27 - Ms. Myers: Okay. We've discussed a lot of them and I can truly say that they have been

honorable. But you still remain humble about them and that's good. So can I

safely say that becoming a lawyer was just not because it was a popular thing to

do in your time but its genuinely in your heart.

Ms. Harvey: It's always been expected from me by my parents to help those who can't help

themselves. I was reared and raised in that type of environment. Some of the

times I resented that because my parents, having six girls, would always find

time for people who had no other direction to turn. That cut down on our time

with Ma'ama and Daddy. They were always helping people. I went to law

school with the specific intent to equip myself to come back and change the

legal system because it had really truly disappointed me as a young person.

When Medgar Evers was murdered, I felt compelled to do whatever was

necessary to change the legal system that permitted his __ and permitted the

law enforcement officers, the prosecutors, the judges and anybody else from

finding his murderer and bringing him to trial. I was just convinced that the

world could change, especially the legal world, and Mississippi could change if

black people were afforded an opportunity to vote. That in my heart and soul

and it was a silent mission I think. I think I was aware of it but not every day.

That gave me the strength to carry on. When I realized that the legal system

could not change unless the political system changed, then I sort of took a

different direction and got involved in the political world. When I realized the

legal system was still so unfair that it didn't matter how good your case was or

what lawyer you had, if you didn't have black jurors to hear your case, it really

- 28 - wouldn't matter. Instead of concentrating on the case, I had to file lawsuits to

get black people on juries. You have to get them on the jury panel (venire)

which is a pool of eligible individuals from which you pick your juror. When I

started [practicing] in 1970, there were absolutely no black people in any

county's pool. What I had to do instead of trying to get a man off for breaking

out of jail or defend activist or civil rights activists who were accused of a

crime, I'd have to do that in addition to challenging the jury's composition. So

I ended up filing many law suits against the counties because they were not

putting African Americans in that jury pool. I started realizing that the legal

system is shaped by the political system. Black people and other

disenfranchised individuals came together and voted and then the texture and

complexion of the legal system, including jurors, changed. In 1991 when

Governor Mabus and my boss Dick Mal pus [Secretary of State] signed Mail-In

Voter Registration into law, I said Medgar Evers' death had a meaning and the

sacrifice was not in vain. Now in the signing of that particular bill, my mother

and daughter were there and they were standing side-by-side. To me that was

one of the greatest moments in my life. The only persons who were missing

were my Daddy and Medgar. But my mother and daughter was there. That was

on April Fool's Day, 1991, and it was no joke; it was real.

Ms. Myers: Okay. So it validates the point that you brought up so many times that voting is

extremely important. Not only do we need to vote but we need to be educated

on how to vote and what voting will do and the consequences of it.

Ms. Harvey: Thank you. Thank you. Exactly. Exactly. And that's why I was so elated to

- 29 - witness such a significant turnout, particularly, the African American

community. When President Barak Obama was elected president, my greatest

fear was that complacency would again dominate election day.

Ms. Myers: Speaking of your mother and of mission, I know your mother, Ms. Olivia

Kelly's mother, was the first African American columnist for the Scott County

Times.

Ms. Harvey: Yes, yes.

Ms. Myers: After her death you continued her work.

Ms. Harvey: Right.

Ms. Myers: How has that experience been for you?

Ms. Harvey: I remember when Ma'ama started she told me she was going to write for the

Scott County Times. My reaction was Ma'ama that's a racist paper. What do

they care about black people? "They only report which black person was

arrested or who stole something from Mr. Jones' store." And I remember her

saying, "You're probably right. But some black people like to be in the paper

when they have dinner at somebody's house or plan they travel." I said

"Ma'ama who'd be interested in that? I could care less about who went where

and who came to somebody's house to eat." She convinced me that color had

no place there because black people wanted to know who was eating at Mary

Jo's house just like white folks wanted to know that. So she said she was going

to write this column. She started writing it. She was a poet and she loved

writing. The editor of the Scott County Times at that time was Sid Salter and

Sid was a Republican. My mother liked and respected Sid and Sid liked,

- 30 - respected and admired my mother. They both could talk about William

Shakespeare like he was Usher. He would come by my parents' store and he

and ma'ama would talk. Ma'ama had this Column, and everybody loved it. In

1991, she was diagnosed with cancer of the sinus and she was already on

dialysis. As, she was about to go into a coma that eventually took her life, she

call all six of us together. She told us what she wanted us to do. One of the

things she asked me to do was to go back to church, and then she said she

wanted me to keep her column going. I said, 'No, Ma'am you've got the wrong

one to do that.' She said, "I want you to keep the column going." I promised

her that I would but I really didn't mean it when I said it. I've written that

Column every week since August 1991. What have I learned from it? I've

learned that people have the same basic needs regardless of color. The column

that we call the Slaughter Library News, and its' named in honor of the Library

that was established in my father's name and after my mother's death, in her

name. There may be about eight or nine columnists. I'm the only columnist

who talks about what happens in the black and white, and Hispanic

communities. I've been told for the last 15 years that the column I write is

probably the most interesting and the more popular. I missed once and there

were calls to the paper complaining. Verna, I appreciate the letter that you

wrote expressing your appreciation for the column, I clipped it out for my

special clippings. I appreciate your support that most subscribers enjoyed

reading your letter.

Ms. Myers: Have you received any awards from the Scott County Times for that?

- 31 - Ms. Harvey: No, and I guess that's because I don't expect it. They don't bother me.

There've been about six different editors and owners. There are many times

when I wanted to stop writing and I think ofMa'ama and I think of people who

say please, "Don't stop writing." So I guess until God calls me home, I will

continue to do it.

Ms. Myers: Okay. If you were to resign from that position or God called you home, what

person or what type person would you recommend for the job?

Ms. Harvey: I'm not really certain. That's a hard one. First of all you'd have to be really

dedicated because it can consume three hours a week. For me its generally less

than an hour because I try to keep up with what's going on in all the

communities.

Ms. Myers: In a positive way?

Ms. Harvey: In a positive way. I never mention anything negative. Most people say when

they read my column they expect to find out who has passed and something

about them, the date and time of the funeral, who's in the hospital and how

they're doing, who has gone on a trip that everybody would be interested in,

who's had a baby, who's graduated from college, who made the honor role,

who's received an award or honor or anything exciting that's happening in the

communities, black and white. I generally cover events at the Catholic church.

Ms. Myers: Okay.

Ms. Harvey: Events in the Rotary club, the Scott County Bar Association and other groups

that work through the Slaughter Library are generally covered.

Ms. Myers: A political move, huh?

- 32 - Ms. Myers: Have you ever been a campaign manager and for whom?

Ms. Harvey: I was campaign manager for my father when he became the first African

American Alderman in Forest. On the day I was married (April 30, 1977), he

was late because he was engaged in a debate with his opponent, Arub Mills who

was the deacon of the First Baptist Church. He was probably the pillar of the

white community. He was [bitter] that a black man beat him. But we did and

we had a very good crew campaign team. We registered African American

without whites knowing. When the Justice Department approved the

redistricting plan, Forest reported that there were more African Americans in

that particular ward, but they were not registered voters. So we had to get them

registered and we did. The strange thing about it is that Daddy received almost

65 percent of the vote. That was my very first campaign as manager and that

was in 1977. I worked for campaigns when I was at Tougaloo, but it was not

campaign manager it was a campaign for Fannie Lou Hamer when she ran for

Congress. Ms. Emma Sanders ran against John Bell Williams for Congress and

I worked with her. I also was campaign manager for Myra Murrell who became

the first African American Tax Assessor Collector in Scott County. I was

campaign manager for Pamela Carson. She became the first African American

Circuit Clerk in Leake County. I started out as campaign manager for Bennie

Thompson when he ran for Mayor in the town of Bolton. He's now

Mississippi's Congressman. In 1997, I coordinated campaigns of Mississippi

Democrats and managed campaigns for all statewide officials who were running

the Democratic ticket.

- 33 - Ms. Myers: When you run for one of these high political offices, who's going to be your

campaign manager.

Ms. Harvey: There will not be a need for such because I don't intend to run. I am very

comfortable offering my advice to young people and to older persons who want

to make that sacrifice. But that's one that I prefer not to tackle.

Ms. Myers: Okay. Law students. Your contribution to the legal profession has involved

several law students. Now talk about the July 1970 Marrow v. Crisler. Is it

Crisler?

Ms. Harvey: It was Morrow v. Crisler. It later became Morrow v. Dillard. It was an

employment discrimination lawsuit where Willie Morr, who was related to my

ex-husband, went oufto get an application to become a highway patrolman. He

had just returned from the Air Force and he went out to pick up an application.

They told him they had none and they were not hiring. A white guy was given

an application and they encouraged him to complete it so he'd be eligible for a

job. We filed that law suit and went to trial two years later before Judge Walter

Nixon. After losing the trial and winning appeal, we were able to get black

patrolmen into the Mississippi Highway State Patrol. They experienced many

problems because of the good old boy white belly "hubba" mentality. I was so

pleased when I look back and think about what happened. We got women hired

as well. The first ticket I received was from one of those black patrolmen. The

Black Patrol Association has honored me on several occasions. They call me

"Ma'ama Connie." I told some of them, "You're probably older than I am, so

Ma'ama certainly is not appropriate." But I understand the context. That was

- 34 - one lawsuit that I really, really feel good about.

Ms. Myers: Great. What about Gates v. Collier?

Ms. Harvey: Gates v. Collier was a law suit filed against the State of Mississippi for

inhumane conditions at the state penal institution at Parchman. We had several

clients there whose lives at Parchman were worse than death. There were

instances there where inmates ate in the dining hall where a version of a

cesspool was located. There were no screens on the windows. Some of the

inmates were stripped for days and watered down. Fans were turned on them.

Death was probably a better option than the living conditions there. Roy Haber

and I filed that law suit in 1970 and it was called Gates v. Collier. It's still

active. Ron Welch, who took up the legal representation after we left, is now in

a position to determine whether or not a prison or a jail in Mississippi is in

compliance with the federal mandate. I feel good about that.

Ms. Myers: Myrtle Burton v. John Bell Williams.

Ms. Harvey: It's a law suit that haunts me to this day. It was a law suit filed as a result of

two students being killed at Jackson State University in 1970. James Earl

Green was a 18-year old high school senior at Jim Hill High School who was

returning home from work. He was crossing the campus of Jackson State and

he was murdered. And Phillip Gibbs was the father of one child, and Dale, his

wife, was pregnant with another child. He was killed in front of Alexander Hall

when police fired more than 400 rounds into a girl's dormitory (Alexander

Hall). On the other side of the street was James Earl Green who was killed as

well.

- 35 - Ms. Harvey: In addition to the deceased, there were eight students who were injured in that

action. I represented the mother of James Earl Green, Mrs. Myrtle Green

Burton, i.e., the case being styled Myrtle Burton v. John Bell Williams. John

Bell Williams was Mississippi's Governor. We also sued the Mayor of the City

of Jackson, Russell Davis, State of Mississippi, City of Jackson, individual

police officers, and individual highway patrolmen. That case was tried in

March 1972 before Judge Walter Nixon who also tried the highway patrol law

suit, Morrow v. Crislow. That trial lasted almost two months ending in a

verdict for the defendants. That was in 1972. We appealed to the 5th Circuit on

various occasions. In 1981, we went to the U.S. Supreme Court which had

reversed Monroe v. Pape which was a decision extending sovereign immunity

to municipalities. The Monroe case was the reason the City of Jackson was

dismissed as defendant. When the Supreme Court overruled Monroe, we went

again to them and requested relief because the only reason the City of Jackson

was dismissed was because of Monroe v. Pape. Once again, we lost. That was

the greatest disappointment in my legal career. I realized then that justice is not

· blind. Justice was not fair and justice is determined by person's economic

status, their race, and gender. The legal system permitted that.

Ms. Myers: Did you say justice determines it or is determined by their economic status?

Ms. Harvey: Economic status, race and gender affect the administration of justice.

Ms. Myers: Okay.

Ms. Harvey: Not justice determines. But "justice is determined by". This is a case that is

extremely personal and sometimes I lose sight of where I'm going because it's

- 36 - very emotional.

Ms. Myers: Do you think today if the same thing happened that things would be handled

differently?

Ms. Harvey: No doubt. No doubt about it.

Ms. Myers: Right.

Ms. Harvey: We talked about that. I've never been in a law suit that's as well prepared as

that was. There were 10 or 12 lawyers and 20 or more paralegals. That was, by

far, one of the best law suits I've ever witnessed. I give thanks to Robert

Mullen of Cravath, Swaine & Moore. I give credit to him for his dedication to

that case. Of course if that case were tried today, you would have black folks

on the jury and in the administration of justice. But it was an all white jury.

The times have changed. There was no value on the life of a black man, much

less one where they tried to paint him as one with a bottle. The judge himself

was Harold Cox, who was indeed one of the most racist judges I've ever been

before and I have no problems with that ____ . His charge to the grand

jury was, if somebody is out there acting a fool, they deserve to die. With that

kind of charge, obviously you expect the grand jury to come back and say the

defendants, the individual police officers were within their rights to kill these

people. Those were two different entities: one was the federal grand jury

where Judge Cox presided and the state grand jury. Then there was the actual

trial where Judge Nixon presided. Both grand juries exonerated the police

officers who killed these two young black men. The trial jury verdict also

exonerated all defendants. That obviously is a case that still affects me.

- 37 - Ms. Myers: So you feel that the results of the case was a personal attack on your being a

lawyer as opposed to your being a black person?

Ms. Harvey: That case made me realize that what I had learned in law school was really of

no use because somebody forgot to tell me and make me realize that if you were

black, the rules were different. Regardless of how well your case was presented

to a jury, if the jury were all white and wasn't going to listen to what you were

saying, you were wasting your time. It made me so frustrated and angry that I

had spent three years in law school learning how to prepare a case and then I get

out, and tried to apply what I had learned and forget the crucial element. My

clients were black and whites killed them. I was talking to a white judge, I was

talking to a white jury, I was going against white lawyers, who represented the

state, I was dealing with everybody in the courtroom who were white. Why

even go? What I was doing was an exercise of futility and getting Black

people's hopes up by saying, "Hey, we've got them, we are going to court and

we'll get a chance." When that verdict came back and patrolmen started yelling

and screaming and hollering 'Dixie' and all of that mess, I was shut down. I

saw my clients running out the courtroom crying. I couldn't deal with the

reality of racism. Right now it's not one of my favorite topics. It was the case

that meant more to me than any other case I've ever litigated.

Ms. Myers: Did it prepare you for handling cases after that?

Ms. Harvey: Yes, ma'am. It sure did. I understood then what time of day it was, and I knew

how to prepare. When I litigated our nursing home cases, I knew how to handle

it. You understand the law but you go after the jury and I learned that. Back

- 38 - then, there was no way I could deal with it because I had nothing in common

with white folks on the jury. When I tried my nursing home cases, there were

black folks on the jury that I could relate to and there were some whites on the

jury who could understand what was right and what was wrong.

Ms. Myers: Okay. Another case, Washington v. Nobles. What's that about?

Ms. Harvey: Washington v. Nobles was a law suit where highway patrolmen established

roadblocks and beat young black boys. They beat my client J.B. Washington,

cut afros and just went totally berserk in Madison County which is near

Jackson, the capital. The Sheriff, Billy Noble and his deputy, Jack Pentecost,

condoned this behavior. His deputy was insane. He wrestled horses and beat

Black people. In fact, he dragged a black woman out of her bunk and beat her

unmercifully. When we got him on the stand he said she fell out the bunk bed,

that's how she was beaten so badly and that she was so big and oily that she

bruised herself. Blacked eye and broken ribs. The judge accepted that

explanation. Those were my police brutality law suits. Many of them. I think

we got a verdict of maybe $500 from one of those cases.

Ms. Myers: Jake Ayers v. State of Mississippi?

Ms. Harvey: That was a law suit that we filed in 1975. A group of black lawyers and black

citizens got together at the Lawyer's Committee on Farish Street in Jackson,

and decided that black schools should have what white schools had white

colleges and universities. We called it equity. There was no concern with

doing away with black colleges, but to give black colleges the same fees and

percentages white colleges received from the Mississippi legislature. That was

- 39 - filed in 1975, I believe. It was litigated time and time and time again. It was

finally settled about four years ago. It was so unfortunate that it was settled

when it still didn't address the issues black colleges getting the same fundings

the white colleges got. It ended up being very political. Black colleges were

told to integrate and get white students and try to diversity. White students are

now being offered scholarships to attend Jackson State University and other

historically black institutions. I'm not aware of any black students being

offered scholarships from the state per se to attend the University of Mississippi

and other places. So it was a law suit which was initially issue oriented and

focused on equalizing the appropriations for black and white colleges and now

it's turned into something that amounts to a political nightmare.

Ms. Myers: Is there a law suit that you enjoyed doing and you won? The verdict was in a

favor that you liked?

Ms. Harvey: Many nursing home cases. I won the highway patrol law suit. I take pride in

that. The one that I lost that truly hurt my heart and still hurts my heart is

Burton v. Williams.

Ms. Myers: Do you feel that these law suits benefitted the community and justified the time

and effort you put in them?

Ms. Harvey: Yes, man, except Burton v. Williams. I put my life into that law suit and it

taught me so much. But it was very expensive in terms of time, energy,

commitment. One of the good things I'm so thankful to God for is that on July

14, I sent Mrs. Burton a birthday card. She was 84 and I was able to send her

some money to tell her that next birthday we're going to see if we can't get the

- 40 - State of Mississippi to issue an apology for killing her son and offer her a sum

where she can go to California and go to Disney World.

Ms. Myers: What are some of the common mistakes lawyers make that get them into

serious legal and ethical difficulties?

Ms. Harvey: I don't think we have enough time to discuss that.

Ms. Myers: Give me one.

Ms. Harvey: One is lack of communications with your client - not staying in touch with them

and letting them know what you're doing with their case. I was a member of

the State Bar Ethics Committee and I presided at Special Tribunals where

complaints were filed against lawyers. It's so simple. If a client hires you to

get a divorce for them you need to let them know every step of the way what's

happening. I do that and sometimes clients will say you sent me a copy of

everything. Yes, I do. Every week or every other week, you're going to hear

from me one way or the other. It may be 'all is well', 'nothing has happened'.

But you're going to hear from me. I think that's the greatest mistake. Not

answering phone calls. I think it's a lack of communications.

Ms. Myers: Now we're going to talk about the law and computers. What are some of the

problems lawyers are experiencing as a result of internet and cyber mission?

Ms. Harvey: I'm from the old school. I find most young lawyers have no problems with use

of the computer in their practice. In fact, courts are now requiring that we file

documents through the internet. I have some difficulty with this and I'm just so

glad that my assistant is comfortable. I sense that its becoming so impersonal.

Communications with your clients can be impersonals. Some lawyers

- 41 - communicate with their clients through email. I don't. I want to know that the

client has in fact received my communications. Being from the old school, I'm

just not comfortable that email is in fact the way to do it. I still send my letters.

One guy told me what assurance do you have with the mail? I'm more

comfortable that the mail will get it there. If it'.s really urgent, I'll send it my

certified mail which is $5, but to me that's more important. The investment is

more important - I can have a clear conscious that the client has received the

mail. Internet is good if you're of that mind set. Some lawyers research

through the internet. Again, I'm from the old school. I have to have a book in

my hand to see it. But I found in some instances, internet quicker. It beats

faxing. My only problem is I'm not certain the person has actually received it.

When I call the lawyer and say I spoke to you, I know I spoke with him or I

faxed you and nothing came back saying you didn't get the fax. But with email

they can always, say well you sent it to the wrong address, somebody opened

and closed it inadvertently. While its quicker, I'm more comfortable with snail

mail if that's what you call it.

Ms. Myers: Is there a breach of confidentiality by using internet?

Ms. Harvey: Yes, ma'am. I'm uncomfortable. I don't know what goes on in a computer. So

everybody could get a copy of what I'm sending him. Or somebody could

come in and get a copy of what he's asking from me. Old school, again; I'm

more comfortable with mail.

Ms. Myers: Do you find that online classes are as effective in the becoming part of legal

field?

- 42 - Ms. Harvey: I don't use online at all. I've just not opted for that. I'd rather go sit in a class,

in a seminar, ask questions, eyeball a person, saying this is the problem that I

have. So I have never, ever taken a class online. I'm the kind of person if I

don't understand what you're saying, I'll raise my hand. With internet, ifl

couldn't raise my hand, I could not really be comfortable that I'm actually

learning.

Ms. Myers: What about face book, twitter? Would you hire an attorney who is on face

book?

Ms. Harvey: I wouldn't want to particularly be associated with anyone, attorney, paralegal or

assistant who is a frequent user of Face book. I think that's the ultimate in

triviality. Not knowing how to be confidential. To me, in my practice, the first

thing I tell a person is you must not talk about anything that happens in this

office. In fact, I help some students who come in and some who are on shadow.

First thing, they sign is a confidentiality agreement, even if they're

volunteering. The worst mistake a lawyer can make is to encourage a client to

tell her the truth and nothing but the truth so I can help you. I will assure you

that no one else will know about it. Now when I do my wills, I actually do the

wills myself. I don't let my secretary type them. So the only two people who

know anything about the will and what's in there would be the client and me;

not even the assistant and secretary. The wills are kept in my personal files

where they are locked up. If a client comes in and wants to talk about a change

in higher will they have to wait until I get there.

Ms. Myers: That's just a personal thing with you?

- 43 - Ms. Harvey: That's personal. So face book, you know, I don't even know what face book

looks like. I know that people tell me that this was on face book.

Ms. Myers: Well, I'm on face book.

Ms. Harvey: In Youth Court, we were getting ieady for a hearing. As prosecutor, the lawyer

walks up to me and says my witness is all messed up and she admitted she

didn't see that thing. I said, "She hasn't even talked to you." He said for me to

hold on just a minute. He came back with his paper. This is what she said, "I

wasn't there but she asked me," and I said, "Where did she sign that?" He said

it was on face book.

Ms. Myers: It wouldn't work?

Ms. Harvey: We haven't done it yet. It will be this Tuesday. She was not there. Instead of

her being there, he wanted to say she didn't need to be subpoenaed because he

had her statement. I advised of my objection to the statement. Cross

examination was necessary. I'm having to deal with face book in a different

fashion.

Ms. Myers: Okay.

Ms. Harvey: Even though I don't have any respect for it, I see no need in it. But that doesn't

mean it's not a part of my life and hasn't affected me.

Ms. Myers: So all that we see on Law and Order about what they get off Face book, that's

sort of like Perry Mason?

Ms. Harvey: Well, no, I think that courts are going to accept it.

Ms. Myers: Oh, they are?

Ms. Harvey: I think so. All I know is that I would have to have the person themselves. I

- 44 - would come up with a thou~and ways to raise the credibility and the reliability,

especially the reliability of any statement on face book.

Ms. Myers: That makes sense. Okay. Now the last question about it is - has the internet

affected the legal field as far as attorneys are concerned, are more people using

self-taught ways of getting their wills and divorce petitions?

Ms. Harvey: Yes, ma' am. What's happening now in the courts is you have people who want

to represent themselves. That means that you don't need a lawyer. Judges are

being required to permit those individuals who want to represent themselves.

Quite a few of these individuals get the information from internet. What they

don't understand though is that they'll want a divorce and they'll go in and get a

divorce from internet. That divorce form may be for Nevada and not applicable

in Mississippi. So they wouldn't know that. I don't have any problems with it

because I think we have an obligation to educate the public so they won't really

need lawyers to that extent. I'm an advocate for having an individual know

when not to sign a contract, what to look for and be aware of as opposed to

signing a contract then coming to a lawyer to get out of it.

Ms. Myers: So if I were to come to you to have a will prepared and we sat down and you

prepare a will. That's one way. The other way is - I did it on the internet, used

the form and came and had you look over it. Would the charges be the same?

Ms. Harvey: Probably not because what I'm doing is reviewing something as opposed to

drafting and preparing.

Ms. Myers: Now, do you feel that women make better paralegals then men? Why or why

not?

- 45 - Ms. Harvey: I just think women are more precise and more organized then men. That may

be from the old school. But because we have so many acts to balance, I think

that women are intuitively more tuned in to things that need to be organized.

I've worked with male paralegals and I've worked with female paralegals.

Female paralegals, and this is a general statement and it could be stereotypical,

are much more organized. Male paralegals want, again want manage as

opposed to falling in line and doing what the lawyer needs done. Women are

much better lawyers because of our very nature and what we had to do in order

to get into law school and get out of law school. The fact that we were able to

do that and at the same time, balance so many other activities, makes us

awesome. I guess I'm prejudice and partial, but I think that women are much

better.

Ms. Myers: Great. Let's lighten up a little bit. You are considered a world traveler. Tell us

about some of the places you've visited.

Ms. Harvey: I've gone to Russia.

Ms. Myers: With young people?

Ms. Harvey: Young American Political Leaders (YAPL). I've visited Cuba. South Africa

several times, Spain, Ethiopia, Kenya, England, France, Puerto Rico, Aruba,

Jamaica, several, several times, Canary Islands. There are several others places.

I just. ...

Ms. Myers: Mostly personal trips or business trips or a combination?

Ms. Harvey: Combination. A lot of the travels have been with the National Bar Association.

We have international affiliates in those countries. We go over and study the

- 46 - legal systems in those particular countries and do a comparative analysis of the

laws in America and the laws in Spain, Ethiopia, Kenya, or wherever.

Ms. Myers: Good. Now, life goes on. As a person, in spite of all of this, how difficult was

it balancing your role as an attorney, a mother, a wife, a teacher and a

consultant at the same time?

Ms. Harvey: I was a wife for 13 years. I think it was perhaps a bit more difficult because I

had to be concerned about a husband and a marriage. His problems affected me

but at the same time, I had no way to control his problems. So I felt a bit

relieved insofar as pressure is concerned when we were divorced. So my role

as a mother, I hope I was a good mother and I have no reason to believe that I

was not. The only thing now, in retrospect is I wish I could have gone to all of

her plays and all of her programs. I went to the majority of them. I'm not

really sure I was cut out to be that kind of mother who made tea cakes and

cookies and so forth. I feel that I'm just like any other woman. Responsibilities

that you have only you have those responsibilities. We do what it takes. We

end up short selling and short cutting ourselves in our personal lives. But I

think we get so much gratification in nurturing. It's positive stress as opposed

to negative stress.

Ms. Myers: Okay. You mention good mother. You want to define good mother.

Ms. Harvey: I think a good mother is one who loves her child, who wants the best for her

child but who also wants her child to be prepared to walk without her being

there. The discomfort in seeing your child stumble as they try to walk and fall,

and you having to be so patient and let them fall, hurt their knees, and get up so

- 47 - they're able to do it. I think that continues throughout your life and the life of

your child. You have to let them go - fly away with their 'Mother Wings' .

Ms. Harvey: . . .. And the greatest challenge in being a good mother, I think, is to give your

child space to grow and develop his/her own personality. I always like to think

of children as 'little people' and while they need guidance and so forth, they are

their own person. What we as good mothers want to do is to minimize the

amount of stress in their lives. But I think it's somewhat unfair because as

children we try to minimize the stress and as adult, the stress is just too much at

times. We need to prepare them to deal with life with or without us -- teach

them to walk across the street when they are able to look up and see the lights.

When they are not able to make the distinction between a red light and green

light, we hold their hands but there will come a time when we are no longer

there to hold their hands and they must therefore be prepared. And I guess, a

good mother does read to the child, talk with the child, has conversation with

the child, plays with the child, read to the child -- you do what is necessary to

ensure that your child will grow up to be a well balanced, productive and happy

Ms. Myers: ... individual ...

Ms. Harvey: .... person. Yeah, yeah ...

Ms. Myers: So, tell me about your one daughter, Constance.

Ms. Harvey: Uh uh, Olivia.

Ms. Myers: Okay.

Ms. Harvey: She is probably, if I made any contribution to ... the best contribution I've

made to society. In that, I feel that my legacy will live on through her and the

- 48 - people that she chooses to associate with. I like to think of her as an individual

who has compassion and an individual who understands the realities of being

Black but also an individual who cares so much about others. And that's about

all that I've asked for. She is very special to me. I've probably spoiled her but

I appreciate the depth of her commitment to make this a better world. I said all

that to say that I am very, very comfortable with my daughter.

Ms. Myers: Tell me about her schooling ..

Ms. Harvey: She graduated from Forest High School. I made a conscious choice to not put

her in a private school. I wanted her to grow up knowing that people are people

and economic status should have no bearing on how you treat people. And I am

very fortunate that she got that message When she graduated from high school,

she went to Tougaloo College. The college that I graduated from, the college

that my father graduated from, the high school that my grandmother completed,

and then the Hand school that my great grandmother completed .

Ms. Myers: . . . your mother completed ...

Ms. Harvey: My mother went to Tougaloo as well. She did not graduate from Tougaloo.

She went to Tougaloo for three years and then my father was injured in service,

he lost his hand so Ma'ama was with Daddy during his recovery. Tougaloo

College was where Ma'ama and Daddy met.

Ms. Myers: And what did your daughter major in?

Ms. Harvey: She majored in political science even though she wanted to major in journalism.

After she graduated from Tougaloo College with honors, she spent a year on the

Hill in Washington, with Congressman Thompson. She made a promise to him

- 49 - that she would go to law school even though she didn't make that promise to

me. She went to Roger Williams Law School in Rhode Island in 2001. That

was the year of the Trade Center 9/11 incident. [That incident psychologically

affected her and law school psychologically affects anybody.] The distance

from home was great so I encouraged her to be more concerned about her

mental health and she came home. She enrolled in Jackson State University for

her master and then while she was there, her father died at her home. Again,

the psychological trauma associated with finding her father dead on her sofa

was too much. She went to Chicago to get herself together and she went to

Chicago State for about a year. She then decided that she wanted to get married

and came home. She and James Burwell were married in 2006. Now, she

works as an Education Policy Liaison and Community Organizer. She was a

New Voices Fellow and worked out of New York. She was assigned to work at

the MS NAACP State Office and worked there a year. Now she is working

with Southern Echo, Inc. They promote community education, and self

empowerment. After her Fellowship was over this past June, she was hired full

time as a Legislative Advocate in the area of Education and Redistricting. So

she is there now and her husband, James, who was one of my former students at

Tougaloo College, is manager of a Walgreen store in Jackson. She and James

make such a beautiful couple and they are expecting their first assignment from

God on Christmas - a boy child. They are so excited and so am I.

Ms. Myers: So it seems that she is doing well for herself and you are pleased with what

she's chosen?

- 50 - Ms. Harvey: I am pleased with what she has chosen. I respect her decision to go into ... to

in the direction that she is going. And all I can say is that I treated her like I

wished my father would have treated me. That is to let me do what I think I

want to do, and when I decide that that's not what I want to do, then respect me

and support me in doing what I want to do. I was expected to be a teacher, and

I chose not to do that. Initially, my parents were not in agreement with my

decision to attend law school but my position had always been that's what I was

called to do and that was the drummer I heard.

Ms. Myers: So, how difficult was it for your daughter growing up in your hometown and

you being the civil right attorney there? Did she catch any kind of flack from?

Ms. Harvey: I'm sure she did and I think it made her a better person. I remember when I was

growing up, my father was a teacher in the same school that I attended. In fact,

he was my teacher for six years. I remember when a teacher was whipping

students and she came to me with this big belt and began slapping me around

my head like she was crazy. I asked her what did I do. She said, "You are your

daddy's child." And to this day, the only thing I could remember is what she

said and why she took it out on me. So, you know, like I told my daughter, use

that to your advantage if any anybody wants to use it as a negative. Just turn it

around on them. She has often told me, "Momma, it's just so hard for me ...

everybody expects me to be brilliant." And I would respond that I had to study

to get what I got, and you have to do the same. I didn't fully appreciate what

she was going through.

Ms. Myers: Was she very involved in civil rights or as adamant about civil rights in her

- 51 - teenage and young life as you were?

Ms. Harvey: Probably more so than I was because she was involved from about six months

old -- when she went to her first NAACP convention. She grew up in that part

of the movement. She was around Mrs. Winston Hudson, Annie Devine, Aaron

Henry and other civil rights activists. Tweety grew up with them. When they

started dying, she felt like all of her friends were dying. She grew up around

movement people and she has a full appreciation for the inequities that exist in

our country.

Ms. Myers: Other people in your past life, you mentioned Bennie Thompson and who was

he to you?

Ms. Harvey: Bennie was my schoolmate at Tougaloo College. We were both involved in

what is called "the bus incident."

Ms. Myers: Yeah, we have talked.

Ms. Harvey: We've gone over this. Bennie was also the best man at my wedding. He and

my husband were friends. Because my ex-husband (Tweety's father) was not

alive when she was married, Bennie walked her down the aisle. There's that

relationship there.

Ms. Myers: Who was George Owens.

Ms. Harvey: George Owens was president ofTougaloo College when I was there, the man

who decided that I could not march. He was also one of my daddy's

schoolmates. He and my father were friends.

Ms. Myers: Dr. Robert Smith?

Ms. Harvey: Robert Smith was the college physician. He was there when the bus incident

- 52 - culminated. He was my personal physician for about 20 years.

Ms. Myers: How was that? There were only two or three black doctors in Jackson.

Ms. Harvey: Maybe five or six back then.

Ms. Myers: Dick Johnson?

Ms. Harvey: Dick Johnson is now president of Common Cause. He's a white male who was

very open minded then and still is. He was my religion professor at Tougaloo

College. He was also my daughter's religion professor at Tougaloo College.

She said he was the only person who told her that 'you are not your mother and

don't let others compare you to your mother.' She said he carried it in such a

positive manner that she felt very comfortable. After being in this class,

Tweety was a junior at Tougaloo. She felt comfortable in being who she was.

We talk about that quite often. He is still one of my very, very, very good

friends.

Ms. Myers: Freddie Jolly?

Ms. Harvey: Freddie Jolly was one of my clients who was also a good friend of my husband

... almost like a brother who taught me a lot about the inequities of the system

from a legal perspective. He went to an all white restaurant in Pelahatchie, MS

and wanted to eat. He wanted to 'sit-in.' He did it very, very professionally

and legally. He got into it with some guy who'd said something to him. Bobby

told him he didn't have a right to tell him he couldn't come in. The next thing

we knew Bobby was going through the plate-glass window of the door. Bobby

was charged with disturbing the peace. During the trial before the justice court

judge, I realized then the fight had just started. I'd said something about his

- 53 - rights in America and the judge said, "You ain't in America, you're in

Mississippi." That just added more fuel to the fire. It really encouraged a

movement to be rekindled. Bobby became a life-long friend. It was through

Bobby Jolly that you and I got to know each other.

Ms. Myers: Right.

Ms. Harvey: For that I'm eternally grateful to him. Bobby did a lot. In fact, he was

instrumental in challenging a school system that would not permit unwedded

mothers to go to school. A young student, Katie Bennett, became pregnant.

She was put out of school. We came and represented her and Katie graduated.

Bobby played an integral role in being a part of my support system and ....

Ms. Myers: . . . and the Civil Rights Movement.. ...

Ms. Harvey: The Civil Rights Movement. Bobby would go out and find instances of

injustice.

Ms. Myers: Right.

Ms. Harvey: And then bring them to me as if I could solve the problems.

Ms. Myers: As a civil rights attorney, how prevalent are hate crimes and how should they be

handled?

Ms. Harvey: Hate crimes have been around so long and they have been stimulated by racism.

Those individuals who were so evil that they would, in a clandestine manner,

plot to kill people because they were black, well that may be called a hate

crime, but that's sinister and that's evil. People commit crimes because of a

person's race, gender or religion, those are evil people and it's a matter of hate.

There are quite a few cases where the offender is motivated because of racism.

- 54 - This country, at times, implemented policy that is evil and designed to hurt

individuals who have nothing to do with their status in life.

Ms. Myers: Have we intentionally danced around your marriage? Let me ask you some of

those questions. When did you marry?

Ms. Harvey: I was married April 30, 1977.

Ms. Myers: You were married 13 years?

Ms. Harvey: Married 13 years.

Ms. Myers: How long had you been an attorney before you married?

Ms. Harvey: I've been an attorney for 7 years. I graduated from law school in January 1970

and I was married April 30, 1977.

Ms. Myers: Did marriage change your workload at all?

Ms. Harvey: No, not really. Marriage really had very little impact on my work schedule.

My husband wasn't as driven as I was and I was devoted to my work.

Ms. Myers: He was in the legal field at the time?

Ms. Harvey: I worked with the Lawyer's Committee and I worked late at night because I was

determined to try to change the system overnight. One night I was working,

going through some files and came across this file, State v. Jim Harvey,-this

Black ex-Marine physically beat up five highway patrolmen with no weapon.

They subdued him by hitting him in the head. They had radioed for some help

to come. I was so intrigued by all of this that the next morning I asked one of

the assistants who was this Jim Harvey. She said he comes in every morning.

When he came in, the secretary buzzed me and said he was outside my office. I

came out of my office and I looked down the hall and the only person I saw was

- 55 - this black man about 6'3", 6"4" in blue jeans pants, blue jean jacket and blue jean cap. He wore shades. I looked past him because I knew that that was not guy that I had read about. I walked past him and spoke. He was reading the

New York Times, looked up, spoke and looked back down. I went back to my

office and thought about his strength and good_looks. He was not friendly at

all. I was somewhat afraid because of what he'd done to the highway patrolmen. I never got a chance to see him again until he called our office the

first of May of that same year. He said he wanted to speak with a lawyer and I

said, 'you're speaking with a lawyer'. He said, 'I mean a male lawyer', which

made me furious. I said perhaps I can help you. He told me that law

enforcement officers in Rankin County had arrested and jailed almost 20 black

students who wanted to celebrate Dr. King's birthday. Jim was calling saying

he needed a lawyer to come over and get these youth out of jail. I was the only

lawyer in the office who could practice law in Mississippi because the rest of

them were from out of state and had no state license. George Taylor, my boss,

drove me to Rankin County because of couldn't drive. When I got to the jail, I

saw all these black people standing around and I saw this guy, directing the

crowd and he looked like the guy who had been reading the paper at the office.

He walked over and said, "It's about time you all are getting here." I went off

on him and he started telling us what had happened and it was just right down

my alley. I was just right into it. We didn't get the youth out but managed to

have members of the crowd stand guard that night. We had a hearing the next

day where we removed the case to federal court. This is where the judge called

- 56 - me a mgger. I saw so much in Jim, the strength that I needed and he was not

afraid of anything or anybody. He then took on a role of protecting me. In fact,

he was instrumental in getting clients for the highway patrol lawsuit (Morrow v.

Crisler) and many other lawsuits. He was there for me during the Jackson State

trial (Burton v. Williams). In fact, he was always there for me when I had a

need to fight the system.

Ms. Myers: And the relationship ended in a divorce and ....

Ms. Harvey: In a divorce.

Ms. Myers: Now, what are some of the difficulties in a marriage, being an attorney, and the

spouse is not an attorney?

Ms. Harvey: Jim was one of the most knowledgeable individuals I know in the legal arena.

He was a paralegal and was over the paralegal unit for one of my former

students, Isaac Byrd. Isaac said that if it were not for Jim, he would be a

pauper, but now he's a millionaire. Most people thought Jim was lawyer. He

knew the law. He could cite the law and he knew how to negotiate. He knew

how to get people to trust him and I never knew him to betray that trust. I've

never had any serious problems with male lawyers, black or white, because of

my personality. I don't know how it would be to be married to one. I've had

several girlfriends who were lawyers whose husbands were lawyers. Somebody

was going to be dominant and it's always a matter of who is going to win this

argument. I don't think they can ever separate home from work. Several of

them are no longer manied. Some men, black and white, have issues with

professional women. I've always felt that it was not worth it.

- 57 - Ms. Myers: What advice would you give young women aspiring to be in the legal field and

desiring to get married and make a family?

Ms. Harvey: First of all, follow your heart and do what you think you want to do. It's never

too late to change. Secondly, try to separate your personal life from your

professional life. Never get involved in a case that personally involves you or

family. Don't represent yourself or an extension of yourself. If you've got a

sister, don't represent her. I share that from personal experiences. Never get so

emotionally involved in your client's case that you cannot see what the judge is

telling you. Just don't get involved in it because you lose your perspective. I

also tell them to try to do what you want in life before you get married. Satisfy

your own desires and goals. If you've got a list of goals (25 priorities) you

want to accomplish in life, try to accomplish 12 of those before you combine

your soul with someone else who has 12 that he/she wants to accomplish. It

was a conscious decision on my part to get married and have a child. I felt that

at age 30, when I got married, I had pretty much addressed my goals. There

were some things that I still had to do but at that time, I wanted to be a mother

and then a wife. Motherhood was calling me. I always told my daughter that I

wanted her to grow up and see the world. I didn't want her to be a weed; I

wanted her to be a beautiful flower. If I bought her into this world when I was

so involved in fighting the system and holding it accountable, she would have

been a weed. I wanted to make sure that she was nurtured, received loving and

a kiss at night, a story read to her every other night, to have somebody to tell

her she's beautiful, to make sure she gets on the bus every day. If you know

- 58 - what you want to do and you don't do it before you become a part of a team,

you're going to be unhappy. Try to get that urge out to do this - to walk down

the street before you join hands with somebody else and they want to go in

another direction. You're creating an impossible situation from the beginning.

Ms. Myers: Is it more difficult to be a female attorney today than it was 20 or 30 years ago?

Ms. Harvey: Thirty or forty years ago, you would have to fight your way into a courtroom

because the first thing they would say is that you've got to be the maid. You've

got to be the janitor. I think it's much easier. Now as far as being able to

function in corporate law, I don't know. I understand that it's just as difficult

now as it was back then because there're still so few women. But I doubt if it's

as difficult now as it was then. I doubt that.

Ms. Myers: We're getting close to wrapping this up. What has been your proudest moment

as a mother?

Ms. Harvey: When my daughter is happy and telling me about something that she's done, it

makes me really happy. I guess the time that made me cry was when I saw her

getting married. I was happy for her and I was proud of her choice of a partner

Ms. Myers: Okay.

Ms. Harvey: I don't know if it was proud or what but it was touching. It's one that I won't

forget. And financially, I won't forget it either. Maybe that's why I was

crying, I don't know.

Ms. Myers: What has been your proudest moment as an attorney other than the Jackson

State (Burton v. Williams) case?

Ms. Harvey: I don't think I could single it out as the proudest moment. The ABA Margaret

- 59 - Brent Award was very, very touching. The award that I got yesterday

afternoon. caused me to cry (NBA Hall of Fame). I really don't think I could

single out any particular incident. I was proud to provide relief to clients in

some nursing home cases.

Ms. Myers: Okay, and yesterday was the induction into the NBA Hall of Fame?

Ms. Harvey: Right.

Ms. Myers: Can you name one case in history involving women that you would have loved

to work on?

Ms. Harvey: Probably getting women in the jury pool so they could serve as jurors.

Ms. Myers: How do you feel about the recent appointment by the President of women in the

system?

Ms. Harvey: I am just overwhelmed. If he were to ask me my advice, I would suggest that

he look closely at appointing a black female to the Supreme Court. I would

love to see him get a black female because there are so many of us who are

qualified, who deserve to be there. I would hope that he would not shy away

from that.

Ms. Myers: What is your viewpoint on the healthcare issue?

Ms. Harvey: I think it's long overdue. America needs to lead the world in providing

healthcare for all of her children, all of her disabled, all of her seniors. In fact

America ought to provide quality healthcare for all her citizens. I strongly

believe in that. In traveling abroad, I've seen healthcare provided on the level

as education.

Ms. Myers: Should voter identification be required during elections?

- 60 - Ms. Harvey: I am very much opposed to that. The reason I stand opposed is because of our

history. My father had to buy the privilege of voting, the poll tax. I just think

that anything that encumbers or puts a burden on an individual to vote is not

necessary and should not exist.

Ms. Myers: Do you see a great decrease in voting in the next presidential election?

Ms. Harvey: I think so. The approach that President Obama used encouraged and gave hope

to a nation that felt as though hope no longer existed. His charismatic approach,

and style caused voters to get excited and hyped. I don't think we will ever be

at such a low ebb that we were when Barack Obama came on the scene. Under

Bush, people just didn't care because nothing mattered. Obama encouraged

young people to care and showed them they can make a difference. I think it's

just going to be very difficult to reach that point again with the mentality that

we have. Because of his presidency, the hate groups have become so divisive.

They have been given space to get in there and divide. It all goes back to what

we were talking about that earlier - racism and that sinister and evil approach to

living together - can destroy all advances including increased desires to vote.

Ms. Myers: Certainly. You mentioned encouragement and hope. Do you think people feel

now that President Obama has not measured up to the promises that he made

when running for the presidency?

Ms. Harvey: No politician will ever be able to deliver all that he/she promise in order to get

elected.

Ms. Myers: Do lay people know that?

Ms. Harvey: They know it but they don't want to accept it. And that goes back to hope. For

- 61 - me it goes back to faith as well. If you have to 'see' in order to have faith, then

we've got some issues there. I have faith that one day everything is going to be

all right. Now I have that faith. I used to have hope that things would get

better. I still have faith that everything will be all right. Do I truly believe that

one day black people will be treated like people as opposed to black people or

Hispanics will be treated like people as opposed to Hispanics? That Haitians

will be treated like Cubans because I see even discrimination with immigrants?

I think that one day everything will be alright and everybody will walk the same

streets with no regard to who comes from this side of town or whose skin is this

color or whose hair is curly, or who speaks like this. We will be able to live

together as equals.

Ms. Myers: On this earth?

Ms. Harvey: On this earth.

Ms. Myers: Your view. After all the awards you've received and all of the accolades

you've received, do you think those things matter to anyone other than the giver

and the receiver? Do you think your awards matter to me or anyone else?

Ms. Harvey: -I instinctively wanted to say no, I don't think it matters. But in the long run,

this is what this country is built on. It would not matter to me but I've seen

people judge others. And I must say this, the majority of the people in this

world judge you by what you've accomplished, not by who you really are. I've

seen those same people say that you are what you've accomplished. Your

character vis-a-vis your reputation sometimes takes the backseat. Looking at it

like that, obviously accolades and awards matter to others who really don't

- 62 - necessarily know the individual who is the recipient of that award.

Ms. Myers: I agree.

Ms. Harvey: Yes ma'am.

Ms. Myers: I think they do matter in the respect you are talking about and they also matter

in the accomplishments that have been done and people are extremely proud of

you. Connie, you know that.

Ms. Harvey: Thank you.

Ms. Myers: I'm prejudice, Connie. (LAUGHTER.) I mean, I just go around, oh, my friend.

My friend. Do you know my friend Connie? It matters.

Ms. Harvey: (LAUGHTER.)

Ms. Myers: Do you think the job market is any fairer in hiring practices for women than it

was years ago?

Ms. Harvey: I think it's getting better. I still think the glass ceiling is still there. As I often

say, there are miles to go before we sleep, miles to go before we sleep. The

glass ceiling is there and waiting to be shattered.

Ms. Myers: Would you be willing to organize a committee to encourage women to enter the

legal field? Black women?

Ms. Harvey: Yes. I'm very actively a part of that already with the Black Law Students

Association with Magnolia Bar Association and with Mississippi Women

Lawyers. Yes, I believe in that. When I was Tougaloo Pre-Law Advisor for 30

some years, I always tried to help students deal with their talents and their

commitment, and decide whether or not law is their calling. If a woman wants

to be a lawyer, black or white, there are enough white women out there now

- 63 - who are mentoring white women. We need more black women who are willing

to commit time to mentoring black women. It is getting better.

Ms. Myers: Good. Do you think one day you will established an award in your name to

present to people or young lawyers?

Ms. Harvey: Yes, ma'am. I was thinking about the National Bar Association, Magnolia Bar

Association and then from the Slaughter Memorial Foundation. I probably

would want to go that route. But I most definitely do. Right now there is a

Constance Slaughter Harvey Scholarship presented to a third year student at the

University of Mississippi that you were so gracious to help fund. That goes to

the third year student who has shown spirit and fight. So I'm comfortable with

that. There is also a Constance Slaughter Harvey Endowment at Tougaloo

College and I'm not really comfortable with the progress that's being made

there. I'd like to change that and have that available for a young student who

wants to pursue a career either in political science or in the legal profession.

Ms. Myers: Very good. Okay. Last question. If you could thank one person for consistent

assistance in your career, who would it be and why? One person. I just love to

see you ponder like this.

Ms. Harvey: [Amused]

Ms. Myers: Two? How about two?

Ms. Harvey: Do they have to be living?

Ms. Myers: Oh,no.

Ms. Harvey: My ex-husband.

Ms. Myers: Okay, why?

- 64 - Ms. Harvey: Nobody understood the mistrust that I had for the legal system. I once used the

word hatred but I later learned that it was not really 'hatred', it was just that I

didn't understand it. Jim had that same feeling. That was something that we

had in common. From 1970 until he died in 2003, he was the only person who

fully understood the gravity of my feelings and my disappointment in the

system. To that extent, he had more of an impact on my life as an attorney than

anybody else. I think that Medgar Evers had a tremendous impact on my life as

an activist. There are other people who had a tremendous impact and who was

there most of the time. Obviously my parents, W.L and Olivia Slaughter, my

grandfather, George Kelley. They were there. My daughter has always been

there and very supportive. I'm not saying this because you are doing this

interview, but you've always been there for me and more than 40 years of

friendship. I think that's part of friendship, being honest and being critical

when necessary. I am blessed to have had that opportunity. I never had that

kind of feedback from Medgar because I didn't know him that welL I only

knew him for six days. That's the most difficult question I've ever had asked.

Ms. Myers: What a testament to the people you have chosen. Believe it or not, Trailblazers,

this is it for us.

Ms. Harvey: (LAUGHTER.)

Ms. Myers: It started on Pecan Boulevard and ended in New Orleans. What a way to go out

as they say. I certainly appreciate doing this and it's been so exciting. I know I

can get back and have some more friends now because I gave up my friends for

this interview opportunity.

- 65 - Ms. Harvey: (LAUGHTER.)

Ms. Myers: They were tired of hearing about this project. They were tired of me not going

out. As they say in the legal field, Connie, you have a three minute closing

argument.

Ms. Harvey: The closing argument that I'd like to make is I appreciate the interest in my

experiences as shown by the American Bar Association's Women in the

Profession. I did not consider myself a trailblazer until recently when I've been

referred to as a trailblazer. It is somewhat ironic because once you start being

called a trailblazer you start feeling like you're a trailblazer, and that obviously

brings about an admission of your age and the periods of time from your birth

until this point in your life. Sixty-four years is big and you think more now

about what good you've done on this earth and why God permits you to remain

here. I think of the experience in 2003 when I was kidnapped and how close I

skirted with death. My single question remains, 'Why did God permit me to

stay?" and my answer is "He wants me to continue to do what I've tried to do".

I go back to 1968 when I was a poll watcher in Marshall County. We almost

died there with the Klan. I asked myself many times now "why?" I'd like to be

comfortable in being able to respond again that "There were miles to go before I

slept." I'm hoping that God agrees with me. There are many, many things I

need to do. I need to get started today before I close my eyes. This project has

helped me reflect on my life and what else I need to do in order to be responsive

to God's gift of giving me many talents. I appreciate the opportunity to reflect

on my life especially with an individual who means so very much to me and

- 66 - one who is not ashamed to ask any question. For this I am eternally grateful to

the American Bar Association's Trailblazer project and the women who are

responsible for the Trailblazers, Linda Ferren and Brooksley Born, and

especially to Verna, my friend and interviewer.

Ms. Myers: Thank you.

- 67 -