REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT

Douglas, Thursday, April 11, 1963.

Present: The Governor (Sir Ronald thereafter deal with items of the Garvey. K.C.M.G., K.C.V.O., M.B.E.). estimates individually. From the Book In the Council: Deemster S. J. Kneale, of Estimates it will be observed that the C.B.E.. Deemster B. W. Macpherson, estimated expenditure of the Board is the Attorney-General (Mr G. E. Moore), shown as £277,980, plus £.73,290 Capital Sir Ralph Stevenson, G.C.M.G., Messrs Works Expenditure, making a total J. 113. Bolton. G. H. Moore, E. B. C. estimated expenditure of £351,270. I Farrant, M.B.E., J. C. Nivison and C. C. McFee. (Mr A. Quilleash. Acting- must point out, however, that this total Clerk to the Council.) In the Keys: estimate includes under the heading The Speaker (Mr H. C. Kerruish). " Rechargeable Works" a sum of Messrs T. F. Corkhill, H. D. C. Macleod. £38,500 for Poortown Quarry; £4,100 T. H. Colebourn, E. N. Crowe, H. H. for our Plant Maintenance Depot; RadcliCfe, E. Kerruish, E. Moore. W. E. £15,000 for Private Works, Sales, etc.. Quayle, H. S. Cain, A. H. Simcocks, C. H. and £3,000 to cover the value of the Matthews, T. A. Coole, G. C. Gale, A. S. concrete products made at the Land Kelly, Sir Henry Sugden. K.B.E., Drainage Depot at Close Leece; for all D.S.O., Messrs J. E. Callister, T. A. of which there are corresponding Corkish, R. C. Stephen, P. Coupe, W. B. entries on the income side. In the case of Kaneen and G. V. H. Kneale. with Mr Private Works, Sates, etc., the income F. B. Johnson, M.A., Secretary to the figure has been increased to £17,000 to House. cover the Board's administration on cost for private works and the sale of materials. The actual amounts to be expended by the Board are estimated as follows:— (1) on Road Works (revenue HIGHWAY AND TRANSPORT BOARD ESTIMATES item), £161,400; (2) on Road Works (capital item), £73,290; (3) on Main The Governer: We have reached item Rivers. £17,880; (4) 011 Lhen/Killane 13 on the agenda narier. I call on the Trench, £1,100; (5) on Administration, hon. member of the Council, the chair- £37,000 — a total of £290,670. The man of the Highway and Transport estimated income of the Board for Board. 1963/4 is ;C87,380, and the total Govern- ment contribution required will there- Mr Farrant: I beg to move the fore be £2113,290, which is over £25,000 resolution standing in my name:— less than the sum required in 1962/63. That Tynwald requests His Excellency in Last year, receipts from various licences consultation with the Finance Boa -d. to give consideration in framing the budget to the and fees exceeded the estimate by over Eistimates of the Highway and Transport £4,000, mainly on account of the higher Board as shown in the Book of Estimates for scales of licence duties for motor 1963/64. vehicles, and we anticipate a further In presenting these estimates to the small increase in 1963/04.. So far as the Court I propose to explain the expendi- Highway Rate is concerned, it was ture statement in the resolution and increased by d. to 8d, in the last year,

Highway and Transport Board Estimates. TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 11. 1963 L076 and the Board considered it appropriate ensure that this section gives no trouble to recommend Tynwald to continue the during the 1963 T.T. and other races. rate at that figure for the coming year. The capital works programme provides Hon. members will see that the total for the expenditure of £73.290 on estimated cost of Road Works for reconstruction works on the Peel Road; 1963/64 (including Capital Works) is at Ballasalla: at Laxey, and southwards £234,690. In the Board's initial submis- from Balcirine. On the Peel Road it is sion to the Finance Board, Road hoped that, after 2i years of opposition Estimates were over -C20,000 higher than and patient negotiation, we will be able the figure now submitted to the Court. to carry out the reconstruction of the as the Board felt that more provision section of road from Greeba Castle to should be made for general road main- Greeba Bridge and the Hawthorn Inn, tenance than had been possible hi the where we were obliged to start our past two or three years. However, after reconstruction work during the past representatives of the Board had met year. A sum of £4500 is set aside for the Finance Board, the estimates were completing this month the surfacing reconsidered and amended to provide for works, hedges and boundary walls on the Hawthorn - Ballacraine section the reduction of £20,000 suggested by owing to the delay caused by the the Finance Board, Before coming to the prolonged snow-clearing .operations separate items in the estimates I would required this winter. At Ballasalla, like to refer to the Marine Drive. which provision is made for the completion of will be officially opened by 'Your the crossing and new gates, the foot- Excellency on the 8th May next. It is paths, and the resurfacing of the Village not yet possible to give you the final cost from the Sycamores Corner to a point of all the work on the Marine Drive, but north of the dual carriageway at the it is likely that it will be approximately Douglas Road bus shelter. On the 2238,000, compared with the original Douglas -Laxey road it had been total estimated cost in May, 1959, of anticipated that the reconstruction from £212,462, Dealing with the separate Laxey to Fairy Cottage would have been items of the estimates, the proposed completed by the 31st March last, but expenditure on ordinary maintenance here again the severe winter and snow- for the present year is £120,350, against clearing work delayed progress, and we £106,895 in the previous year's pro- only reached the Axnfell Road junction gramme. This estimated sum provides by that date, The 1963/64 programme for £105,140 for general maintenance, provides for the completion of the patching, gritting. snow clearing during section from Axnfell to Fairy Cottage. an average winter period, and also and in addition, the reconstruction is to provides for the surface dressing of be extended southwards, from Balcirine 371 miles of road during this summer. to the Baldromma crossing, to imprbve as against 30 miles in 1962/63. The the poor alignment and uneven gradient balance of £15,210 allocated for main- on this section. Under the heading of tenance is to be expended on essential Special Works only four small schemes maintenance works, including resurfac- are provided for this year:— In the ing of existing footpaths at Lezayre north, the formation of a new footpath Road, Ramsay; Kirk Michael -Pee] road; at Laxey from Church Road to Fairy Onchan; Colby; Castletown, and Balla- Cottage before reconstructing the road- Lesson; the provision of a cattle grid at way alongside, and a widening at the Windy Corner end of the Glen Roy Ballaugh Village. In the south, provision road, and the resurfacing and surface is made for a culvert -along our main dressing of the section of road from roadside near Brookfield House, Foxdale, Waterworks Corner towards the to accommodate drainage from the Gooseneck on the Mountain Road to adjoining high land, and a sum of

Highway and Transport Board Estimates 1076 TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 11, 1963

£2,500 is set aside to be used at the impassable and, at one time, 228 miles Horseleap on the Marine Drive to carry of the Island's road were blocked by out protective work at the foot of the snow, drifting rapidly in the gale force slope, should this become necessary. wind. This mileage is almost half the Provision is made for sums to cover pri- total road mileage under my Board's vate street works. the erection of 'bus jurisdiction. Emergency measures were, shelters. and the purchase of any therefore, necessary to meet the situa- property required for road improve- tion, and men and plant were sought ments. By agreement with the Finance from all possible sources to supplement Board the " contingency" or " emer- the Board's own men and equipment. A gency works" allocation has been re- total or 693 men (including the Highway duced to £509, but we have been assured and Transport Board's men) and 29 that the Finance Board will help us if items of snow clearing plant, 19 of which any large unforeseen emergencies arise. were hired, were in use at the height of With regard to new plant, the Surveyor the storm, and a large amount of over- General has strongly advised that the time was necessarily worked by staff Board would be imprudent if they did and men. It would be very remiss of npt now embark upon the replacement me, Your Excellency, if 1 did not avail of several of the heavier items of plant, myself of this opportunity to place on and the Board have accepted that ad- record my Board's appreciation of the vice. Provision has been made for the very considerable assistance given to us purchase of eleven items of new plant, during and after the snowstorm by cer- the chief of which are a No. 19 R.B. tain Boards of Tynwald, other au- excavator; a No. 10 R.B. excavator; a thorities, and individual firms and per- 3-ton Muir-Hill dumper ; a 7-ton E.R.F. sons. Principal among these are the lorry ; and other smaller items costing Harbour Board. the Forestry, Mines and a total of £21,220. The two excavators Lands Board, the Water Board, the which it is proposed to replace are 16 police department, the church authorities and 15 years old respectively and the at Kirk Michael and Balfaugh and the cost of repair ls now uneconomical. Re- Automobile Association ; and, in addi- garding special winter works, during the tion, many other persons to whom the past winter four improvement schemes Surveyor General has written letters of were undertaken, and some 30 extra men thanks for assistance given during the were employed temporarily on such emergency. Lastly, and by no means schemes. With their 1963-64 estimates the least the many firms and farmers the Board have listed five schemes of who lent additional plant, and the staff, high - labour content on which winter foremen and men of the Highway and unemployment relief work could be pro- Transport Board and other Boards who vided. The total estimated cost of the deserve great credit and thanks for five schemes is £48,515 ; some are facing the rigours of the storm and un- located in the north of the Island and dertaking the heavy task of clearing could provide employment for tempor- deep snow-drifts from many miles of ary men in that district if required. I roadway under extremely trying con- am sure that the Court would not wish ditions. To each and every one my me to describe in other than general Board extend grateful thanks. During terms the effect of the storms and the the past year my Board has continued disruption and, in certain ceses, hard- to make further provision for new signs ship which was experienced as a conse- and safety posts to aid the safe move- quence. Sufficq to say that the snowfall ment of traffic and a further programme which started in December and cul- of signposting is in hand. Further minated in the blizzard on the 6th Feb- amenity planting has been carried out at ruary resulted in approximately 130 Ballig and the Highlander, and is also miles of class 1 roads being rendered to be carried out in the near future at

Highway and Transport Board Estimates. TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 11, 1963 1077 our Ellerslie, Glen Duff and Close Leece two or three years we have been forced (Land Drainage) Depots. We are for various reasons to reduce—perhaps greatly indebted to the Forestry, Mines unwillingly — the expenditure under and Lands Board for their willing co- these heads and we have now a consider- operation in this matter. The results of able leeway to make up in that respect. the treatment of roadside hedges, verges The other item I would like to speak on and footpaths with non-toxic weed- is item 26—the purchase of new plant. killers have been very beneficial, and This has been very carefully considered we have already arranged for the pur- indeed by the Board and the Board are chase of new supplies fcr use this year. completely satisfied that these items are The provisional maps required in con- all quite essential. I would just like to nection with Public Rights of Way Act, say this, however. I have had consider- 1061, are now in course of preparation able experience in this kind of thing and the necessary surveys will be con- was responsible for the tinued as expeditiously as possible. at one time and development of this type of equipment With reference to land drainage, a sum for all departments of the army and of £17,880 is included as against £.10,450 that included not only equipment for last year. This provides for mainten- road works but for harbour works. ance and improvement work, principally forestry work and every undertaking in on the Sulby, Nob and Silverburn rivers, the army. I do believe, Your Excellency. and for relatively small amounts of that there is considerable possibilities maintenance work on the Glass, Dhoo and Laxey rivers. The increase in the for the standardisation of this equip- estimate is due to the proposed erection ment throughout all the Government de- of a new combined store, garage and parts in the Island. Here, Your Excel- workshop at the Close Leece Depot, lency, I would like to add my apprecia- tion to all the other Boards which came using the roofing materials which my Board purchased from the Civil Defence to our help during the storms which we had this last winter. But there is one Department over two years ago. The cost of this new building will be £2,000. thing I would like to add and that is, if The remaining sum of £1,100 in the all the Boards had had the same type of lorry it would have been easy for us Land Drainage Estimates will be expen- in the Highway Board to fit snow clear- ded on the cleaning of-the Lhen and Killane trenches. I have endeavoured ance blades on them to help elear the to give the Court comprehensive details snow. I give that as an example of the of the Board's proposals for work on argument for standardisation of equip- ment and I hope that when other de- roads and land drainage during the- coming year. but if there are any fur- parts are considering the purchase of new plant and equipment in the future ther points in the estimates on which hon. members desire information, I will they will give a thought to this point. do my best to answer any questions. I Finally, Your Excellency, 1 would like to beg to move. say again how very much we did ap- preciate all the help we had from other Mr Mt:Fee seconded and reserved his departments this winter, remarks. Mr Bolton : Your Excellency, I just Sir Henry Sugden ; Your Excellency, want to say two or three words but not I would just like to say a word or two exactly on the present estimates before about two items. The first is regarding us. Rather on the way they are being items 13 to 17 grouped together— dealt with. I have always been trained ordinary maintenance and surface dres- to make a clear distinction between what sing of highways. That is a very high is capital expenditure and revenue figure but I can assure the Court that it expenditure. But I find in these esti- is very justified because over the past mates today we have £35,000 approxi-

Highway and Transport Board Estimates. 1078 TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 11, 1963 mately to be spent on road improve- penditure out of revenue, Your Excel- ments including reconstruction of class lency, there will come a day when we 1 and unscheduled roads, purchase of cannot borrow any more and that is new plant included in the ordinary when we will find ourselves in consider- estimates of the Board. Then in the able difficulties and have to impose new capital estimates we have £73,390— taxation to meet the burden. We are. I which I can only assume is to be met believe, trying to bury our heads in the sand by classifying anything which we by borrowings—for road improvements cannot meet out of ordinary revenue as at Laxey Bridge tp Ballabeg, Peel Road, capital expenditure. I feel I must call Baldrine to Baldromma, and Ballasalla. attention to this drift, Your Excellency. For the life of me I cannot understand I have just had a look at what I have the difference between the road im- in the past called our social services— provements in one part of the estimates and agricultural subsidies are part of and these. Neither can I understand them—and I have found that ap- that the purchase of new plants cannot praximately £450,000 is going in agri- be considered as capital expenditure if cultural subsidies this year, £532,000 is the repairs and construction of roads needed to meet the cost of education. is considered to be that. This leads me £747.000 is needed for the health ser- to the point that I am quite sure our vices and the cost of the social services finances are being arranged so as to is £1,000,000. Those four are all our discover what money we have available social services — our means of the re- to spend and then what money we distribution of wealth — and the total shall need from borrowings. There is cost of them is some £2,737,000. As no clear distinction between these two these services grow we must either types of expenditure—so it seems we are pay for them by increased taxation or getting to the point where, in our finan- we must pretend that the cost of the cial arrangements, we are fixing up the Harbour Board and other boards are all Board with money we have available out capital expenditure and just borrow of revenue for some of its work and the money. Sooner or later, however, then say—" For the rest you must bor- the cows will come home. row "—and in order to justify that the borrowings are called capital expendi- A Member: We'll have to earn more ture. To my mind this position will money. need to be carefully watched. The total Mr. Bolton: It is easy to say we will amount which it is proposed to classify have to earn more money. But it is as capital expenditure on which money Government money which will have to is to borrowed is £11 millions this meet these increased costs and in the year. In the future that will cost us end it will have to be found by some £9,000 a year to meet. In other words form of taxation. I have no objection every year we will be facing a deficiency for borrowings for genuine capital but we will not call it a deficiency, we schemes. We are going to borrow will call it capital expenditure. It is a £500,000 for the building of new very dangerous position indeed for us houses which will last for some 60 to drift into. All these loans have to be years. That is reasonable. But it is repaid and financed every year and I unreasonable to say that a certain think we should be very careful in con- item is capital expenditure just because sidering these matters. In this par- you haven't the money in your pocket ticular case it is so difficult to draw a to pay for it at the time. We must line between what is capital expenditure be very careful that we do meet our and what is ordinary expenditure. In ordinary expenditure year by year and previous years you will find that all the only borrow for what is justifiable as expenditure would have been met out capital expenditure. There is a glaring of our revenue. If we cannot meet ex- example of the alternative in these

Highway and Transport Board Estimates TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 11, 1963 1079

estimates before us today — £73390 is sines to travel round the Island. We down in the capital estimates for road have got to increase earning power. improvements whereas there is a fur- When we have got the people then we ther I:35,000 in the ordinary expendi- can have the fancy roads. Over the ture. I can only imagine that the years we have been proud of our roads Finance Board felt we could pay for one in the Isle of Man but the figures have lot and not the other. not been anything like they have be- come since we acquired the Blaw Knox Mr. Radcliffe, Your Excellency, I am finishing machine. I have an idea that very glad that the hon. member has the Highway Board has been taken over raised this matter. I think it is time by that machine. They are planning that the public should be aware of what everything for the use of it. is happening. Last year I did not ap- Mr Farrant: Nonsense! preciate what was happening but I do now. The hon. member assumes this Mr Radcliffe: I am not surprised sum is to be borrowed and I have good at the chairman's reaction. He would reason to believe it is. I support him hate to think he would be taken over in everything he has said. Items are by a machine but that is the effect. The being classified as capital expenditure roads in the Island generally are de- which were never considered as such teriorating while the Board concentrate previously. This vote has gone up on highly sophisticated surfaces in some .CI00,000 and this has not been called sections to justify the machine. to the Court's attention — neither has Mr. Cale : It is to satisfy the the fact that these monies are to be motorist, not the machine. borrowed. I can also find no provision for the redemption of these. borrowings. Mr. Radcliffe: The motorists were If there is one. I hope the chairman will satisfied already. tell us. But if not, it means this debt Mr. Gale: No they were not. will be round our necks for evermore. They are suggesting overspending and Mr. Kelly: Like country lanes. borrowing on services which have not Mr. Radcliffe: I have heard lots of been put before this Court as to the full complaints. The part they are dealing implications. If the Highway Board with is part of the T.T. Course which want to reconstruct the roads on the has been very well looked after by our Island, they should put their plan before forbears. It has been examined by the Court and let us consider it — not authorities on road racing and met their just slip items through bit by bit. Your requirements and laps of 100 m.p.h. Excellency, 1 go along with all that the have been performed on it. We hear hon. member in the Council has said. the hon. member for Ramsey, Mr. Kelly We do diverge on other expenditures talking about country lanes. Our roads but we think alike on this vote. I know have been good. it is no use moving an amendment be- cause it would not go down but I do Mr Gale: They are a lot better now. hope the Finance Board and this Board Mr. Radcliffe: I know some members will give serious thought to the vote as would put thousands of pounds into to what it implies and means. It is said roads and say "no" to everything else. we have got to earn more money. I I am registering a very strong protest agree with him. Mr. Bolton said it has against financing by borrowing what to be financed. I assure the Court I am has in the past been financed out of not against borrowing or spending but revenue. They are borrowing for ordin- I am supporting expenditure to improve ary works from which there will be no our earning power. It is no use having return and there is apparently no sink- racetracks round the Island if we have ing fund. I am not a financial expert not got the people in ordinary limou- hut I am sure this is completely bad

Highway and Transport. Board Estimates.

1 1080 TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 11, 1963

financing and I am not blaming the Mr. Corkhill: The Highway Board is Finance Board for it. a pretty expensive Board but I think Mr. Farrant: Who are you blaming ? two or three grids on this road would be worth the money and be a help to Mr. Radcliffe: It is pretty obvious— tourists. I think there are three gates the Highway Board if the chairman on that road which have to be opened wants to know. I suggest that the and shut. There is another wanted at Highway Board has been taken over by Glenmaye. this machine and their expenditure has gone up £100,000 since 1961-62 for what Mr. Kelly: With reference to the purpose ? I am not criticising the receipts from vehicle licences, £74,000 Finance Board. They cannot dictate in 1962-63 and an estimate of £75,000 policy and wield the big stick however for next year. I had a car about two well-intentioned they may be with years ago and the number was 2522. regard to the Island's finances. I have Now the numbers are up to 6976 which registered my protest that I disagree shows the speed these things are going entirely with spending money when we on. It is no use asking people to come are short of it which is not going to to the Island with their cars and ad- bring in any return whatever. vertising the ear ferry and so on unless Mr Bolton: May I make an explana- you are going to have the right condi- tion? I would not like it to be thought tions here for them. You say one thing that I am critical in any way of the and then another thing. What do you Highway Board estimates. I am critical want? Do you want us to have good of the Finance Board. I believe this roads or not? How we get the money work is essential. for it is another thing. I am not inter- ested in that. We have got to have good Mr. Radcliffe: The hon. member of roads and I hope the Board will con- the Council is not making an explana- tinue its policy in that respect. Mr. Bol- tion—it is a speech. He is getting out ton told this Court when he came for- from under. He is afraid of being pinned ward as chairman of the Highway down. Board with the tremendous scheme of Mr. Bolton: The Highway Board did quarry development and modernising not prepare the estimates in this way. our plant that it would put the roads of The Speaker: On a point of order the Island in first-class condition. It Your Excellency, we have a long is only in the last year or two that we agenda and I understand this was a have had this transformation in certain point of explanation. If we have second sections. There are 400 miles of roads speeches we will not finish in Easter in the Island and we do about four week. miles a year so it will be about 100 years The Governor: Will the hon. member hence when it will all be done. I think be brief? it is right that posterity should pay something of the cost. Are we going to Mr. Bolton: I would not like it to be produce these lovely roads s6 that some- thought that I am opposed to the High- one else will benefit but not pay for it? way Board and to suggest they are re- sponsible for splitting the estimates is Mr. Corkish Family planning. entirely wrong. (Laughter). Mr. Corkhill: May I ask a question ? Mr. Kelly: I think they are doing a The chairman mentioned a cattle grid wonderful job and .1 have the greatest at Windy Corner. I think we are short admiration for the workmen. You of a few of these grids particularly on hardly ever see anyone scrounging the road from Brandywell to Ballaugh. about like they used to do. They seem I do not think they are expensive. to be picked men. They are doing a Mr. Farrant: They are very expensive. grand job of work. would also like to

Highway and Transpori Board Estimates, TYNWALD COURT, APRIL n, 1963 1081 pay tribute to the workmen in connec- have nothing to say. If you look up the tion with the snow clearance. I felt official records you will see how much ashamed when 48 hours after the I speak. There is one point I want to snowfall I went to BaIlaugh and popped join issue with the hon. member of the into the Sulby Glen Hotel for a couple Council Mr. Bolton. Mr. Bolton knows of hot rums to cheer me up when these very well that this new Treasurer has men were working in the snow in bitter produced a set of accounts and has conditions. I think we ought to include endeavoured to introduce capital items. an item in these estimates to give the He has made a start and Mr. Bolton is men a glass of rum at a time like that. one of those people who are confusing (Laughter). this Court with his accountant's mind, and an accountant can make figures Mr. Canister: I am not going to prove whatever he likes. Obviously he criticise the estimates of the Highway is not prepared to spend any money on Board except for one or two details and ventures which could not be called those are the ones which I will refer to capital expenditure. I agree with him in each case in the hope that we can get that where one spends capital. one some economy through centralising the should have some asset to show for it. cost. In this estimate we have "Print- He considers that the new roads are ing, stationery, advertising, postages capital expenditure. and petty cash" £1,550 and "Tele- phones" £670. This could be reduced Mr. Bolton: I said they were not but very considerably if we had centralisa- you were not listening. tion and a centralised' building. I hope Mr. Callister: You said they were in the future to ask for the individual capital expenses and that it was not expenses of Government departments only expenditure but that it should be for printing, a lot of 'which I think under capital expenditure. could be done by the photostat depart- ment. I am sure the cost of postages, Mr. Bolton: You could not have been advertising and phones could be reduced interested. also by centralisation. Another point I Mr. Canister: Perhaps I am a bit would like to mention is this ! we are stupid but the hon. member is the one now on our third day on these estimates man who says that if you have not got and I doubt if we will get through to- the money you cannot spend it. He has day. I hope this exhibitionism by the no vision and he does not look to the chairmen of Boards will cease in future. future and he is quite ready to do away This is a presentation of accounts for with surtax so that we have no Accumu- the past year and possible expenditure lated Fund. The, hon. member for Ram- for the next year. If the chairman's sey Mr. Kelly, was on the right lines. statement was printed and published He occasionally is but he said that if with the estimates so that everyone we want to develop this Island to pro- could see it we could go through these duce revenue we must spend money. resolutions in quarter the time. At We have no national debt and we have present the chairmen of the Boards a lack of confidence in ourselves and take an hour or an hour and a half to we are not prepared to spend money to tell us what we already know. I believe increase our revenue and to increase this spate of oratory is unnecessary. our production and I believe with Mr Mr. Quayle: You have spoken your- Kelly that the improvement of roads is self on every estimate. necessary to a tourist island. I believe a great deal of work has been done and Mr, Canister: On Tuesday I did not I hope it will continue and I am not one say a single word. I say less than the. of those who is going to criticise the majority of members- although I know estimates and I hope we will be pre- some members say nothing because they pared to have the courage to have

Highway and Transport Beard Estimates. 1082 TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 11, 1903

capital expenditure not only on our Board could get into touch with the highways but on the many attractions owners and occupiers, especially of in the Isle of Man to bring visitors and the land on the left-hand side of the produce the goods and the food our road going from Douglas to Kirk visitors need, Michael they could considerably lower the height of the hedges in that area Mr McFee: I just want to say with and it would also give a better view regard to the suggestion made by the to our visitors when they come along hon. member for Ayre, Mr Radcliffe, for one can see little out of a car and that the machine was dictating the policy of the Board, I would remind they could be lowered in many cases. the Court that the Blow Knox policy The fields are far below the roadway and if the hedges were brought down is only a small part of a £120,000 to road level it would help the Highway scheme of reconstruction and quarry Board and there would be a wonderful reorganisation which was • adopted and view so far as visitors travelling in cars approved by Tynwald. We are only were concerned. Now, it has been men- carrying out the requirements of Tyn- tioned more than once about the Board wald in this matter and if we had had being subordinated to the machine. If the full oportunity of carrying out our the Board is going to put down good own policy instead of having so many road surfaces they will not be able to people meddling and hindering our put a good surface on a road unless it efforts the main road to Peel would is going to last for a good number of have been completed and it would have years. It is no use doing up any road been something of which we could and one can takb the road from Greeba have been proud to have for our visit- Castle to Greeba Bridge with its many ing motorists who are increasing every turns and narrow corners. That road year. Even when the Tourist Board wish has to be reconstructed before it is to have an exclusive picture they go to- made up and we are building for the Our newly-constructed road at Crosby future and not doing something for and although someone said we were de- today and I hope the Board will carry stroying all the amenities of the Isle of on improving the roads. Man but I will say that if the Court gives the Highway Board the money Mr. Kneale: With reference to the that by next year you will have a newly work being carried out at the Marine constructed road going from Douglas Drive, Your Excellency, the estimate for to the Airport which is the front door last year was probably nearly double and the main route of traffic in the and this will be a warning to the Court Isle of Man. I say give us the oppor- as to how difficult it is on capital tunity and we will do the job. schemes-to give a true estimate and that Mr. Crowe: I am not going to hbld the figures you are given are meaning- forth on the estimates but I would like less and I would like to ask the chair- to make a suggestion which I think man whether there has been any further would be helpful. The hon. chairman falls of rock on the Marine Drive? has mentioned the mileage of roadway Reference has been made to the fine new under snow for quite a long time, and roads we have and to the compliments I think that that area which was worst received from everyone and from the affected was from Kirk Michael to drivers of cars as to the big improve- Eallaugh. If you travel from Cronk-y- ment they are, but we have heard it Voddy to Kirk Michael, you will notice mentioned that the T.T. riders are the thorn fences which grow to a con- pleased with the roads. They are when siderable height, and there is no doubt the weather is fine but in wet weather they help to trap the snow. We know they are a grave danger and the ap- those roads are not good as far as roach to Union Mills is one I have wit- snow is concerned but if the Highway nessed for the past two years. In that

Highway and Transport Board Estimates. TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 11, 1083 1083

time I have seen six crashes, two of Board have agreed between themselves them serious—there have been others. to reduce the estimates by £20,000. Ap- —one of them fatal and that took parently Mr. Bolton's criticism is on place last year. 1 am also a reader of the new method of financing but I can a motor-cycling newspaper which have assure the Court that on financial issues asked the riders what they thought. and the experts can have many different the answer has been that they are un- points of view. We have the benefit safe in wet weather. In regard to the of expert guidance and advice and we snow •I would compliment the Highway take it and we might have different Board on the efforts of snow clearance. advice if the hon. member, Mr Bolton, but on the new road between Union was the Government Treasurer. We Mills and Peel only last year, if you have to remember that the Accumulated take a run out there you will find that Fund has been run down to nothing all the edges of the pavements are over the years and has been wound up crumbling and I am wondering if they and it is obvious some alternative form can put anything in their mixture to of financing is required to be adopted protect the pavements. On the question to maintain the services and we have of Laxey Bridge I would like the final done the best we can with these large cost of that bridge. estimates hut. quite frankly, the ball is at your feet. I said on Tuesday that Mr. Gale: r must extend my congratu- the Board is not dictating policy; that lations to the Highway Board on the is laid down by the Court, and if you work they have carried out on the Peel feel that the estimate arrived at by road. I did hear the hon, member for agreement is incorrect and cannot be Ayre, Mr Radcliffe, speaking on these maintained it is up to the Court to say roads. As one who has travelled in how much the Highway Board shall be England and Scotland I must say how given. much we have opened up the Island and how much it is going to be opened Mr Canister: May I ask this question? up. There are two points I would like Does he not think that the kerbs of the to make. One is whether the Board footpaths you are making are not too will reconsider the question of the lay- deep ? by at St. Trinians to make full use of Mr Farrant: Your Excellency, I will it instead of making it half and half. The coach drivers are anxious over this be as brief as possible. I am grateful to members of the Court for their kind- point and there is plenty of road at the ness in remarking on the work of the lay-by but at the end of it they have Board in snow clearance. I commend to built it up with a grass verge and that other Boards the words of the hon. and is not allowing the fullest use. Secondly, gallant member for Ramsey with regard there is the question of the speed limit. to the provision of new plant. I thor- between St. John's and Ballacraine and I hope the Board will reconsider this oughly agree with him that if it could he co-ordinated it would be a sensible again. Thirdly, sir. I wish to bring to the notice of the chairman the danger- idea. With reference to the hon. mem- ous corner opposite the Glenmaye Post ber of the Council, Mr Bolton, and the Office and Gienmaye Hill. I do con- hon. member for Ayre, Mr. Radcliffe, gratulate the Board on its work. I think their remarks have been dealt with by the chairman of the Finance Mr. Stephen: I are not going to delay Board. rt was agreed that the recon- the Court but after the hon. member struction of the main roads Douglas to of the Council. Mr Bolton, started to Ramsey, Douglas to Peel, and Douglas speak, it was soon made clear against to the Airport should be dealt with in whom his attack was directed and it capital expenditure and that is the was not at the Highway Board. So far , agreement with the Finance Board and the Finance Board and the Highway the accounts have been presented with

Highway and Transport Board Estimates, 1084 TYNWALD COURT. APRIL 11, 1963

the full knowledge of the Finance Board Mr. Farrant: I do not think so. With and they have been drawn up in that regard to the hon. member for Peel, I manner. I would remind the hon. mem- can say that the Board will certainly ber for AYre in regard to the roads consider his suggestion about a lay-by which he does not think are satisfactory at St. Trinian's, but I cannot give him that they are just as important to the a definite promise on it. As regards the Isle of Man as subsidies to agriculture. speed limit at St. John's and Glen (Laughter). With regard to the hon. Maye the Board wilt review that. member for Glenfaba, in regard to Mr. Kneale: I would like to have an cattle bridges i can assure him that answer, Your Excellency, about the cattle bridges are expensive items and pavements. Do they put any mixture the Board has to be careful before they in to stop the frost affecting them? sanction a cattle bridge which might be Mr. Farrant: For that information I unnecessary. I thank the hon. member would require notice. for Ramsey for his words and with re- The resolution was carried. gard to the question on telephones and stationery, I can give these figures: We spent £960 on printing and stationery LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD and that includes licence books, applica- ESTIMATES tion forms, registers, note papers, dup- The Governor: We proceed to item licating paper and also forms and cer- 14 on the agenda, gentlemen. I call on tificates for Public Service Vehicle the chairman of the Local Government examination and driving tests. Many Board. see last year I set a time limit application forms are stencilled on our on this of 35 minutes to 40 minutes duplicator. On the question of adver- Mr. McFee: I beg to move the resolu- tising, we have to advertise regarding tion standing in my name:— dog licences, road closing for repairs and different other things and the cost That Tynwald requests His Excellency in eomlulZation with the Finance Board to give was £300. We bought books and peri- consideration in framing the budget to tho odicals for the various departments at Es'linatcs of the Local Government Board a cost of £30 and nostarses cost £260. as shown in the Book of EEtimates for 1563/54, With regard to the telephone we have Taking into account that we are working four lines at Head Office. We also have against the clock, Your Excellency, I telephones to Division 1 and Division 2 will be as brief as I can. Taking the and also down to Public Service Vehicle revenue estimates on pages 56 to 57 Department. Altogether there are 12. I first, Your Excellency, it will be seen hope that satisfies the query on that that receipts total £37,665 which is an point. Your Excellency, I think Mr. increase of £6,000. The main increase Crowe has made a very valuable sug- is in item 1.—rents. This is due to the gestion and I might say that the Board rent policy and the building of more do intend to erect chestnut snow fences houses. On the other items of receipts in certain fields with the owners' ap- there is very little difference and I will proval. I commend this very valuable therefore make no comment. With re- suggestion to the Court. As regards the gard to revenue expenditure totalling Marine Drive, I can assure the hon. £161,275, the first item is salaries and member for West Douglas that there this includes the salaries of the Medical has been no further fall of rock. As for Officer of Health and the Planning the Laxey Bridge, the total cost was Officer if these appointments should be £28,302. The original estimate was made to fill the positions which have £14,800, later increased to £19,800. been vacant for some years. We are going to consult with the Health Ser- Mr. Kneale: Wasn't there an original vices Board about the appointment of estimate of £4.000 ? a Medical Officer of Health but we do

Local Government Board Estimates. T YNWALD COURT, APRIL Ii. 1963 1085

not agree with the suggestion made by anticipated rent increases throughout Alderman Kaneen yesterday that it the island. Classified roads and private should be a Health Services Board street works show an increase on esti- appointment. We feel that the Local mate of £1,000 on last year but £16,800 Government Board is the public health more than the probab:e payments owing authority and if a full-time appointment to work not being carried out. It is is to be made it should be by the Island's possible that that work will be carried public health authority. We also feel out in this next year Those are that the time has come that if an ap- main items concerning the revenue pointment is made we should dispense estimates, Your Excellency, and we now with the other part-time appointments proceed to the capital estimates on at Castletown, Peel and Ramsey, em- pages 79 and 80. These amount to brace the schools service and bring it £507,200 compared with an estimate of into one comprehensive department. S.:275,123 and a probable of £151,554 Unless that takes place I am afraid last year. Dealing with the items seria- the chance of a full-time appointment turn—Phase 1 of the scheme for the is very much in the background. With demolition and clearance at Andreas of regard to item 4 on the expenditure the sites on which temporary hutments side, we have included the sum of were built has been completed and £5,000 to carry out the various plan- Fhase 2 will be carried out shortly. The ning schemes which are now in pro- only temporary buildings to remain on gress and also to consider applications the former communal site will he the that have been made by authorities for Parish Hall and the building used as similar planning schemes. Item 7 deals the Rifle Range and the club room. It with a very serious plague—rats. For is very desirable, Your Excellency, to their extermination we have increased clear up this unsightly site. Next item the sum from £600 to £3,000. The is Rural housing. Although only £20,000 reason is that we have employed six was spent last year in grants and loans, temporary men for the purpose of rat the Board thinks there may be several extermination and already we are re- more applications this year than last, ceiving evidence that this is achieving hence their decision to estimate a sum its object. Item 9 is the Fire Services of £25,000. Fire Escapes . . . The deficiency. This includes a capital majority of Board members have been amount of £6,000 for a new fire station disappointed over the slow rate of pro- at Castletown. There is also a payment gress in erecting fire escapes. The Act to Douglas out of the fund of £10,500. was passed in 1950 and the Regulations In the near future, Your Excellency, I in 1952 but so far only a small propor- can say that we will be bringing recom- tion of the buildings as defined in the mendations forward to place the Fire Act, have been fitted with the escapes. Services in the island on a more real- Pressure has been brought to bear on istic basis. We are at the moment con- the local authorities from time to time sidering implementing part of the Kelly to enforce the Act, and some have done report and we will be placing recom- so to a certain extent. The Douglas mendations before Tynwald in the near Corporation, for example served a future. large number of defects notices last Mr Kelly: A take-over, is it? year and followed these up with court proceedings in a number of cases where Mr McFee: Could be ! Items 13 and owners defaulted. The Corporation in- 14, Your Excellency, show increases in formed the Board, however, that in loan charges and deficiency payments some cases the defence was that the because of our policy to build more owners had already placed orders with houses. You will notice in item 15 that local manufacturers but that such local authority deficiencies are reduced orders had not been carried out. This by £1,000 and that is because of the position does not tie up with the state-

Local Government Board Estimates. 1086 TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 11, 1063

ments made to the Board on several site for, new houses at Janet's Corner occasions by one of the local manu- has now been cleared and the final facturers, that unless he obtains more payment will be made to the contractors orders his firm will have to close down. at the end of the retention period. The The Board understands there is a pos- erection of the 48 new houses and flats sibility of a third firm of manufacturers is on the agenda as a separate item, so of escapes setting up on the Island, and if this is to be the case-, it is hoped that there is no need for me to say anything the provisions of the Act and Regula- further. The Sound conveniences are tions will he rigidly enforced by the now completed. Fifty pounds is allowed locau . authorities, otherwise considera- for window 'protection from storm tion will be given to amend the Act. damage. Retention money of .C1.000 for The Board has, Your Excellency, esti- Andreas houses is now completed. mated £15,000 for loans under the Act Tourist Premises Improvement Acts — as against a probable expenditure of Loans — Under the Tourist Premises £8,500 last year. With regard to Improvement Act, 1961, a fund of drainage schemes. the Glen Mona, £250,000 has been established to provide Maughold, and Dalby, Patrick drain- loans for the imorovement of tourist age schemes are now completed and accommodation. Last year, the Board in operation. The final payment for estimated that £100,000 of this fund Glen Mona has been made and a would be required, and although loans sum of £250 has been estimated this totalling £239,607 were approved during year for Dalby to meet the cost of the year, only £60,000 was actually reconstructing the road to the sewage spent. This year, it has been decided to works. The work will be carried out by allow a sum of £200,000 to cover out- the Highway and Transport Board. The standing approved loans and new sum of £100 has been allowed for a applications, but I would point out that further sewer extension at Ballachrink, it is possible the whole of this amount Lezayre, at the estate being developed could be expended in meeting loans in by Parkinsons' Limited. With regard to respect cf two large properties, If other the Crematorium (item .8). The Crema- large loans are applied for it may be torium at the Douglas Borough Ceme- necessary to consider increasing the tery has now been in operation for some fund by another quarter-million pounds. time, and a vote for the excess cost is I am sorry to say that the House being moved at today's sitting. The Building Scheme (item 17) has not been Board considers that this excess cost is a success. Members will be aware that not unreasonable in view of the increase the proposal in the first place was to in labour costs during the course of the build a number of exhibition houses in work, and the extras which were found various parts of the Island, with a view to be necessary. It is very difficult, in a to attracting new residents. The decision scheme of this nature, where so many of Tynwald, however, was that a fund special fittings and fixtures are required, of £30.000 be established, by borrowing, to avoid some extras. On Housing, the to enable money to be advanced on loan Agricultural Workers' Tied Irouses to approved registered builders to Scheme has proved quite popular, as 28 enable such builders to provide houses. houses for farmworkers have already The loan is to be made to the builder been erected on farms in various parts at a rate of interest not exceeding 4 per of the Island, and four more are in cent, and has to be repayable within course of erection, and applications for two years of the completion of the house. two others have recently been received. Only one application turned down not With regard to item 9, Foxdale suitable. (Loan maximum £5,000, if not demolition, a sum of £.500 is allowed for sold in two years, builder must pay demolition of old buildings, retaining 6 per cent.). Castletown Sea Wall — the Clock Tower. Janet's Corner—the Work on the Castletown sea wall has

Local Government Board Estimates, TYNWALD COURT. APRIL 11, 1963 1087 proceeded during the winter and is still to the revision of the Ordnance Survey continuing, Satisfactory progress is maps of the Borough of Douglas, which being made. The scheme has already the Board has been advised are neces- been fully debated in Tynwald, so there sary before planning schemes can be is no need for me to say any more about Prepared. The Ordnance Survey Depart- it. Approved Government contribution ment estimate that the cost of the was £42,000 over two years — first year revision for Douglas will be in the £11,000; second year £31,000, which we neighbourhood of £33,000. Housing estimate 1963/64. Central Abattoir — Private Enterprise Scheme — This Some years ago the question was raised scheme, under which grants and loans of constructing a Central Abattoir for are given to persons with Manx residen- the Island, to replace the two existing tial qualifications to build houses for abattoirs at Douglas and Ramsey. A site their own occupation, was not taken up was provisionally selected and prelimin- in the early stages to the degree which ary drawings made, but then the project was anticipated. To date, only twelve was dropped. It has now been revived applications have been received, but the as it is felt that the Island must have a Board is hopeful that there will be a new Central Abbatoir, with ail modern greater response this year, and they have equipment and appliances. The Techni- estimated a sum of £40,000 for grants cal Officers of both the Board and the and loans. The scheme provides for a Board of Agriculture and Fisheries have grant of 10 per cent., an interest-free consulted officials of the British Beef loan of 10 per cent., and an interest Corporation and have inspected abattoirs bearing loan of 20 per cent. of the cost in England of the type suitable for the of the house, up to a maximum house Island. These officials are now preparing cost of £.5.000. Composting of sewage plans and specifications with a view to sludge and household refuse. — The inviting tenders for the work. The pro- Board in its estimates for the past two posed site for the new abattoir is off years have included a sum of £.104,000, Annacur Lane, on the Spring Valley being 75 per cent. of the estimated road. The estimated cost of the new cost of providing a composting plant abattoir is £50,000, and the work is to for the disposal of sewage sludge he spread over two years. Item 22 refers and household refuse, together with to the special vote for Janet's Corner— ancillary buildings: construction of £50,000 is estimated this year. It is roads, etc. On each occasion the proposed to erect about 12 bungalows Finance Board have deleted this item in either Laxey or Lonan (Item 23) for from the Board's estimates as they con- occupation by elderly residents of those sider the disposal of household refuse is areas, at an estimated cost of £30,000, a local authority, not a Government of which £10,000 may have to be found responsibility. Some of my colleagues on this year. There are still 12 hutments at Board said I knew something had Glen Maye (formerly the R.A.F. Camp), taken place of which they were ignorant. which are occupied, but as these hut- As soon, as I got that information from merits are now becoming rather dilapi- t he Finance Board, I immediately dated and unsightly, it is intended to reported back to the Board. The Local have the site cleared of all temporary Government Board has for some years buildings and to erect eight new houses past been pressing for a scheme of this for the present occupants of the tempor- nature, as it is now becoming increasing- ary huts. Although there are 12 families ly difficult to find suitable sites for refuse in residence, it is hoped that four of lips. Not only are sites difficult to find, these will have found suitable accommo- but in these modern times, when authori- dation elsewhere by the time the Board ties are trying to improve health and is ready to have the huts demolished. hygiene, it, is felt that refuse tips should Ordnance Survey Revision — This refers be abolished. The Board understands

Local Government Board Estimates, 101111 TYNWALD COURT, APRIL. 11, 1663 that the Douglas Corporation may be 1963/64, with maintenance charges of prepared to take responsibility for £8,500 and rents of £31,500, which more operating a composting scheme provided or less balance up. At the time these they receive substantial Government figures were referred to, I had unfortu- financial assistance towards the capital nately overlooked the fact that I was cost, but until plans and specifications only quoting for about one-third of the have been prepared. and tenders re- houses and the deficiency On the Gov- ceived, it will be difficult to estimate ernment loans printed in the official accurately what the capital cost is handbook of accounts shows a figure of likely to be. While the Finance Board £26,000 deficiency quite apart from have de?etect this item from the what is shown here. I want it to be Board's estimates, the chairman of borne in mind that over the 500 houses the Finance Board has expressed there is a deficiency of about Ill a week himself as prepared to support any and any suggestion that the Govern- application by the Corporation for a ment is making money on housing is Government grant towards the capital wrong. They are not. I would like to ask cost of the work, but he is not prepared, the chairman of the Board whether the at this stage, to commit himself as to Board have gone into these housing what the percentage grant will be. The costs ? I noticed in last night's paper problem of finding suitable sites for that the authorities across the water are refuse tips is concerning other insular concerned with their costs and are going authorities as well as Douglas, and fairly in for the bulk buying of bricks, timber, recently the C:astletown Town Commis- slates and the like, and they are getting sioners have raised the question of the their figures down, and I see no reason provision of a composting plant to deal why the Government cannot go into with refuse from the southern districts the question cf cutting the cost of hous- of the Island. The Board's Chief Inspec- ing down so that we will not he faced tor is at present obtaining information with too high a cost. I would like to as to a smaller type of composting plant know, too, if there is any late informa- which may be sufficient for the needs tion or planning decision with regard of the south of the Island. to South Ramsey. and the other point, Your Excellency, is that there was some Mr Bolton: I second the resolution and criticism of the Local Government reserve my remarks. Board tackling the drainage schemes Mr Corkish: The chairman of the with their own direct labour. Some Board made a statement that the abat- people said they were on the wrong toir was to be off Annacur Lane. The track. but I would like to know if they information we had waS that it was in came within the estimates. a field to which access would be from the road leading to the Cooil. Would the Mr Kneale: There is one item which chairman explain that? should have been included in the capital. estimates of the Local Government Mr McFee: The information we have Board — that is the sum of £100,000 for got is that it will not have direct access a refuse disposal plant, or plants. It from the main road but will be more was included in the original estimates direct from Annacur Lane — the lane which were submitted to the Finance which goes from Spring Valley. - Board but it was cut out. The chairman of the Local Government Board repor- Mr Kelly: During the debate on Ix:us- ted back to the Board that the Finance ing I referred to the deficiency payments Board-would not anorove and had cut it on houses and you will see on pages 56 out, and he has told us that again today. and 57 of the Book of Estimates that The chairman of the Finance Board has they have reduced the deficiency pay- told us in this Court that the Finanee ments from R.12,000 to £5,000 for Board did not cut it out, so I, together

Local Government Board Estimates. TYNWALD COURT, APRIL II, 11163 1089 with my colleagues on the Local Govern- it should be done immediately and I ment Board, am wondering who did in hope you, Your Excellency, will consider fact cut it out, for we are of the opinion this in the estimates for next year. I that it should have remained in. The understand that representatives of the Island depends for its very existence Board have been visiting Scotland and on the tourist industry and we should Lancashire and a few plants, and for make every effort to ensure that this the chairman of the Finance Board to Island is cleaned up to ensure our suc- presume to dictate to the Local Govern- cess as a health resort. The present ment Board is quite unauthorised. It has method of refuse disposal, namely by no authority and I resent it. tipping, is completely out of date, and is far from being a satisfactory method Mr Simcocks: I think the position frcm either health or scenic beauty angles. These tips give continued trouble should be made perfectly clear as to the throughout the Island by causing a activities of the Finance Board on these nuisance from smell, or by internal occasions. I repeat that the Finance burning. The method suggested by the Board has taken nothing out of the Board is one by which all refuse which estimates which were presented to us is salvageable should be salvaged and for consideration. What it did do was to the rest should be turned into compost discuss, through its officials — first the which can be sold. This method is very officials of the Boards and departments clean, and the layout of the plants which and on some occasions the members of the Board have visited in England and the Finance Board had discussions with Scotland were as impressive as the the chairmen of the other Boards — the gardens at the entrance to the Airport various matters and the discussions were buildings. It is essential that the Local with a view to effecting such reductions Government Board tackle this problem as the Boards were prepared to agree to, at an early date — although the item and that is the Position quite clearly. It has been excluded from these estimates, must not be thought that the Finance I would ask Your Excellency to give Board has acted arbitrarily or attemp- consideration to the inclusion of ted to act arbitrarily. .1 think the chair- £100,000 for this project when preparing men who did have reductions, particu- your Budget, so that the Local Govern- larly the chairman of the Highway ment Board, in co-operation with the Board, the hon. member of the Council local authorities, can make an early start Mr Farrant, and the chairman of the to get rid of our antiquated and un- Local Government Board and the chair- healthy method of refuse disposal — it man of the Government Property should appear very near the top of any Trustees, will all, I think, confirm that priority list. where their estimates appearing in the green book are lower than those submit- Mr Ca'lister: I rise to support what ted to the Finance Board, the reductions the hon. member for West Douglas has were effected by agreement after a said. I am wondering who prepares friendly consultation and discussion. these estimates for Tynwald, Is it the (Hear, hear), I think that the hon mem- Finance Board, or is it the Government ber for North Douglas seems to have a Treasurer. who has, apparently, signed wrong idea of the way the Finance them ? The Finance Board have no Board works. We have to pay regard to authority, and I resent the Finance the over-all financial position and its Board having the power and I am sur- expenditure and we have found that the prised that the Board will take any chairmen have been friendly and help- notice for indiscriminately cutting out ful in accepting voluntary reductions in something which had been decided on. the estimates. IL is certainly not a ques- I agree with the hon. member for West tion of the Finance Board wielding an Douglas that composting is essential and axe..

Local Government Board Estimates, 1090 TYNWALD COURT, APRIL, 11, 1963

Mr Callister: I hope the hon. members nothing in the estimates for telephones, of the Court— but then I see what is behind the admini- The Governor: Is this on a point of stration expenses of £4,500. It covers a explanation ? multitude of sins. The chairman thinks " you must accept the figure of £4,500 Mr Callister: I had not finished. and we can spend it when and as we Members: He was interrupted. like." The other item is " fire escapes." It has been brought to my notice by a Mr Canister: I hope hon members of man who ordered two fire escapes that the Court will understand the speeches he made application in 1961. He had a of the chairman of the Finance Board quotation at that time for £95, and now and Mr Simcocks, because I cannot. It he gets a quotation for £120, and, in the reminds me of the bulldozing of the other case, the original was £85 and Health Services Board and the Hospital now it is 50 per cent. increased. I hope Committee and the bulldozing of the the Beard will enquire into why they Local Government Board so far as were not delivered in the first place and housing is concerned. Here is a similar the abnormal increase in the prices. demonstration. Here we have a reduc- tion in the local authcrity housing defi- Mr Bolton: I have listened to the hon. ciency payments which is the authora- member for North Douglas's suggestions tive attitude of the Local Government that the Finance Board has not the right Board to local authorities, and the local to do this, that and the other and, while authorities were influenced and intimi- I might be critical of the Board, I think dated into increasing their rents to we must admit that they have a right in reduce the deficiency payments, and the preparation of estimates to discuss they undertook in 1948 to maintain matters with the Boards and with the deficiency payments for the next forty Boards' chairmen, and the suggestion years. and these increases in rents, the that the hon. member has made is in chairman suggests, are in anticipation keeping with his policy of not recognis- of building houses. Whoever heard of ing anyone he does not like. I would, at asking anyone to nay for houses before the risk of disagreeing with the members the site was chosen and the plans were of my own Board, sneak on the question made or a brick laid, or have we any of composting. The matter of composting assurance they will be built in the next refuse has not been put completely out twelve months, I know they are required of our minds. I think the suggestion was and I know more than the chairman of made that members might have thought the- Local Government Board knows. the matter had been dropped. It has that they are required, and t am more been made clear, I think, that in the concerned about building houses for view of some members it did go before people than they are. the Finance Board, who thought the Mr Gale: You are wrong. matter was one for local authorities Mr Callister: I say so. rather than for the Government or Local Government Board, and I would be Mr Gale: You can say what you like, inclined to agree with that, but it is Mr Canister: They have bulldozed the recognised that if the local authorities local authorities into increasing the did undertake this responsibility they rents so that Tynwald will escape the would have to receive considerable undertaking to pay deficiency payments Government assistance, and I have for the remainder of the period they understood that was the position, The promised to do so. There are one or two Government is not rejecting its respon- other points, Your Excellency, and look- sibility, but what it. is saying is " we ing at telephones and administrative shall not do it, but we hone the local expenses leads me to think that the authorities will," and I believe the Local I3oard has not gol a telephone. There is Government Board has already indica-

Local Government Board Estimates. TYNWALD COURT; APRIL 12, 1963 1091 ted to the Douglas Corporation that they Mr Kaneen: Your Excellency, I hope will be prepared to assist if the latter this Court will not be confused by the undertake the scheme. Within the last statements that local authorities are week or two, the Local Government against, getting on with the job, This Board have been looking into the matter business was mentioned as much as ten of composting very carefully, and I years ago by the Local Government would say that the matter is not dead, Board when Cant. Crellin was the chair- man. They even went to Edinburgh to and I would not like to attach any view the composting there. I am sure blame for having the item removed the Corporation are willing to co- until such time as we are in a better operate on a scheme such as this, but at position to deal with the proposition. the same time I am sure that the rate- payers of the town should not be Mr Stephen: Your Excellency, might expected to bear the whole of the cost I suggest to Mr Callister that, during involved in this matter. I think we the Easter recess, he should read the should get on with the scheme, Your Finance Board Act, and in his spare Excellency, for the longer we postpone time, that he should read the Isle of Man it the greater the cost will be. But at Constitution Act, which indicate that, in the same time we must bear in mind either field, the Finance Board, or the that the cost should not fall just on one Executive Council, are doing no less local authority. or no more than the duty conferred Sir Henry Sugden: Your Excellency, I upon them. With regard to the com- would like to ask the chairman two posting scheme. I might explain from questions. The first is on item 14—elder- a personal point of view that 1 was a ly persons' bungalows. Is he satisfied convert to composting before the hon. that adequate provision has been made member for North Douglas became a in this estimate ? We have one schenie member of the Douglas Town Council. in Ramsey, of which the Local Govern- What caused difficulty with the Finance ment Board have details, and it woUld Board was that the scheme submitted appear to me that the provision is not adequate. The other question I would to it was not an all-Island scheme. The like to ask concerns South Ramsey. present scheme has a number of reser- Item 23 gives a provision to Laxey and vations in regard to it and the north will Lonan. Is that in fact a scheme which not use it because of the heavy haulage. forms part of the development plan ? costs, and we have suggested that if a comprehensive scheme is Put forward, Mr Kerruish: Your Excellency, in with some indication of the finance his recent statement on housing policy, involved and of the use that would be the chairman of the Local Government made of the composting plant by the Board made reference to the possi- Government. we might be able to see bility of a scheme to assist in the some reasonable way to assist the modernisation of houses in the out- scheme, providing it is comprehensive. towns and villages. In the estimates I because Ramsey Commissioners think can see no provision made for grants or they would prefer to keep their rubbish loans and I hope this is not an indication in Ramsey rather than cart it else- that there is likely to be any undue where. Mr Kneale did raise an im- delay with the scheme. I think a scheme portant point and I hope the Local on the fines indicated by the chairman, Government Board will try and evolve would be a great benefit to many people a scheme which will dispense with this and I therefore would be very interested disgusting position of tipping rubbish to hear what progress is being made. in the open and encouraging rats. I Mr Coupe: With regard to the site of am sure such a scheme would receive the abattoir, Your Excellency, I am a the consideration of us all. little unsure about the site, as it is

Local Government Board Estimates, 1092 TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 11, 1963 years ago since this was first talked dallying over the ordering of escapes. If about. I believe it was suggested that it a person obtains a quotation for an should be on the road to the Braaid, but escape that is not an order, and prices I don't think we should put the abattoir could go up between then and ordering, there. To my mind, it would be better and I think that is what is misleading hidden away in the middle of Douglas. the Local Government Board. The other if you like, rather than have it stuck on point is, I was rather disturbed when I the skyline. heard what the chairman of the Local Mr Gale: It won't be ! Government Board said about local authorities. He did say, though, that if Mr Coupe: I sincerely hope I have the the local authorities don't do anything wrong site. That was the site when I steps would have to be taken to amend was on the Council. the Act. I do appeal to you to get things moving. If you are going to have this Mr Corkhill: Your Excellency, last matter out, do let us know if we can year a sum of £2,000 was voted for the plan to go ahead with production. I do improvement of Foxdale. I would like appeal to everyone to stop this hesita- to know from the chairman how much tion. of that money has been spent. I was told then, Your Excellency, that similar The Attorney General: Your Excel- amounts could be spent in the following lency, I, like the hon. member for East years to tidy up Foxdale, but when I Douglas. hope the chairman of the Board come to think of the amount of money will give this Court more information that was spent in the Laxey area, which with regard to the site of the abattoir. was a mining village too, well — it seems I understand that the site originally that Foxdale has been practically for- proposed was on property belonging to gotten. It was said last year that Fox- the Douglas Corporation immediately dale was being measured up with regard behind Harcroft and the Springfield to industry or something. I hope I am houses. That was abandoned, however, wrong. but I can never see any industry on the proper grounds that it was an going there. Surely, though, we should area where there were high-class houses. keep faith with the people of Foxdale A new site was then decided on, at the and do something ? I hear all we are junction of the roads at the top of Peel going to have this year is some £500 to Hill, but that has objections, as it is on prop up a clock and pull down a build- the skyline. I think, Your Excellency, ing or two. I don't think that is fair, the Court should be assured that no considering the amount of money spent steps will be taken to fix a site without in another mining village. the Court's knowledge, as the abattoir Mr Callister: Laxey is a tourist resort ! is a thing on which there will be grounds of objecting, Mr Corkhill: No more than Foxdale. Foxdale could be one too. If you spent Mr Matthews: Your Excellency, I the same amount of money there as you wonder if the chairman could give this have at Laxey you would hardly know Court any indication as to when the the place. roadway at Ballakillowey and Ballakil- pheric will be open to traffic ? Mr. Matthews: Mention has been made, Your Excellency, of fire escapes, Sir Ralph Stevenson: Your Excellency, and in speaking of these I must declare I would like to reassure the hon. mem- my interest. I am one of the manufac- ber for Glenfaba that Foxdale has not turers, so I do know what is going on. been neglected or forgotten: A scheme If a person had ordered escapes from for the development of the area has my company they would have been rut been prepared recently and representa- up at the prices then quoted — the tives of two development firms have reason for prices going up is the dilly- been over here looking at the place.

Local Government Board Estimates TYNWALD COURT. APRIL 11. 1902 1093

What will develop from that, I don't ter Rural Distria Council in building a know, but it is a fact that Foxdale is three-bedroomed house we find pay obviously one of the places on the 150s. a 1.000 for common bricks while in Island which could he turned into a very the Island we pay 270s. Timber in well designed industrial area. Chichester is I Is. 3d. a cubic foot and Mr McFee : With regard to the ques- in the Island it is i7s. 3d. There is a tion raised by Mr Kelly, the hon. mem- difference in the cost of plaster board ber for Ramsey the Dolby drainage which in England costs 2s. and here 3s. scheme has been carried out by direct a foot. These costs run right through labour. Speaking from memory, if it the trade and W2 are paying anything serves me right, the cost of the scheme from 50 per cent. to 100 per cent, more was estimated at £14.000 but we could for materials than the builders pay in only get one tender for it, No other England. On sanitary goods of which 1. contractor was interested at the time have a complete knowledge, we pay an and we turned down the one we did re- isle of Man delivery charge—not neces- ceive as being too excessive. Further sarily transport—of l 2. per cent., and approaches were made to the contractor this is the way it goes on. You can see to reduce the estimate and it was ul- that the building of an average three- timately brought down to £12,500 which bedroomed house by the Douglas Cor- the Board still thought excessive for the poration or the Local Government Board work. We therefore decided to carry can cost nett :(2500 to .E000 more because oat the work by direct labour. Work of these extra costs to Manx tradesmen. has now been completed and the total Another aspect is that while they can cost, excluding the road approach, has use common bricks in England at 150s. a been :C8,000. We have provided an item 1,000 compared with 270s. here and just of £250 this year for the Highway Board point them. hut because of the weather to construct the road to the sewerage conditions over here we have to render works. The Board has therefore carried them at additional cost. That gives out the correct policy by carrying out some insight into the building difficul- ihe work by direct labour after realis- ties in the Island. ing that the estimates were much too high for the job. It means that a £14.000 Mr Crowe : Could I ask the chairman job has been completed by the Board at of the Board if there is anything to stop a cost of £8,000. local builders bringing in materials direct and saving all these overheads ? Mr G. IT, Moore Was the road in the tender ? Mr McFee : Some importation is going on now but the policy of recent -years Mr McFee : The road was excluded when the industry generally was slump- out allowing for the road we will till ing in the Island and stock-piling even complete the work at a cost to the Board at Peel was up to one million bricks, of just £8250. With regard to housing the idea was to encourage Mi-mx indus- costs which Mr Kelly asked about—I try as far as possible and purchase did Promise the chairman of the Finance locally. This was Government policy Board and the Court that we would aid was in fact laid down in Local make some inquiries and we have now Government Board contracts. Take win- got some information. I have not had claws—in England steel windows cost time to scrutinize the whole detail but about Os. a square foot but over here there is evidence to suggest some of the the steel is represented by wooden win- reasons why building costs can be very dows at I5S. a souare foot. If you want much higher in the Island than in Eng- us to face up to this and ignore local land. Take for instance a comparison production and import we will go into with some of the places which were the - matter. It may of course have recommended to us to study. Chiches- economic repercussions elsewhere,

Local Government Board Estimates, 1099 TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 1.1, 1963

Mr Kaneen : The chairman says that Mr McFee : That will be part of the local authorities have to buy locally. scheme!, of course. May I make a slight That is not the case. We only do it pro- correction with regard to the compost- viding all other things are equal. ing plant. I may have suggested that the Finance Board had cut it out as if Mr McFee : When there was a slump they had used their own powers and in building five years ago there was a directive by this Court to architects for axed the estimate. What they said was Government work that they must ask that they were not prepared to support that all materials where possible would it. One of the reasons they gave us be obtained in the Island. You had at was that they did not consider that the that time big firms in the Island import- scheme had been presented to them as a ing ready-made joinery work. With re- comprehensive detailed scheme and an- gard to the question by the hon. mem- other reason was they understooe that it ber for Ramsey—to prepare any De- was the responsibility of the local au- velopment Order, very careful and de- thority and not the Local Government tailed preparation is necessary and with Board to deal with the disposal of refuse. regard to South Ramsey the detailed Mr Callister asked when we were going plan of all properties is completed and to build these 400 houses. With regard brought right up to date. Now the to non-functioning areas we are actively superimposing of the proposals for engaged in this project and it has al- future. development on model lines is ready got to - the stage with local being carried out by our architect and authorities with regard to their require- the draft provisional order should ments and they are co-operating with us be completed in about six weeks. The to build more houses throughout the Is- 'next step will be to submit it to the land. The Board is so concerned about local authority—the Ramsey Commis- this matter of housing that where there sioners—and a conference must be held is a need for houses they will say to the within one month of the submission of local authority concerned " If you do not the completed plan. The Draft Order get on with fulfilling this obligation we and map must be put on view to the will use the powers given to us under public and a time fixed to hear objec- the Acts." In other words we will use tions if any within one month of the date " the big stick." fixed by the notice. This is a statutory Mr Canister : We will get on with it requirement. Then objections will be you do your part. received and considered and amend- ments made to the Draft Order or not Mr. McFee : Sir Henry Sugden refer- must then be notified to all interested . red to schemes for accommodation of parties. A reasonable time is then given elderly people. That scheme will come to hear further objections. After all up at Ramsey and needs will be related that, you have got to hold a public in- to the scheme. The arrangement we quiry and proper Press notice must be have made is for our own areas. The given in the Island. After that the new housing scheme for standard and Board may present the Development amenity was mentioned by Mr Kerruish. Order to Tynwald and then it is going to We will have to prepare this and pre- get a kicking about again, sent it to Tynwald. We have not an- ticipated legislation but when we present Mr Kelly: What about the money? the scheme for approval of Tynwald in Mr McFee : You cannot determine the the form of legislation or a scheme at money before the scheme is settled. the same time we will link up the cost They must know what they are going and ask for a special vote for the pur- to do. pose. With regard to Foxdale clock tower, I will look into the question of Mr Calilster: Except rents. getting it finished quickly to meet the

Local Government Board Estimates. • TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 11. 1063 1095 criticisms of hon. members. The money Mr 1VIcFee : I might say that all hous- voted for clearing up Foxdale has, not ing schemes in areas which are being been used. The reason is that with specially developed will be considered the pcssibiiity of industrial development in conjunction with development here we did not want to carry out any schemes. These particular bungalows clearing of dumps which may be re- are not essential as with the old people's comprehensive plan of development quired at a later date- It is far better which we considered for the Marashen to hold back any small consequential development at Port Erin. These will development first of all so that we can be considered on their own merits and fully plan a scheme in which all those definitely fitted in with the Laxey area other items can fit. The hon. member development. What we have included for Bushell asked when was the Balla- today is to cover smaller developments kilpheric to Ballakillowey road to be required and application has been made opened. I will assure him that they will to have them included in the present be opened as soon as we have the work housing sites, completed. The contractor is well The Speaker : Your Excellency, surely within the time limits according to the this matter has nothing whatsoever to contract and we will hold him to them do with the development plan put before if it becomes necessary. With regard to the Court. the siting of the central abattoir I have The Governor : No. just had given to me at this moment The resolution was carried. the proposed site. It is merely a pro- posed site and will have to go through the usual procedure when opportunities will be given to persons interested in LOCAL WAR PENSIONS the siting of the project. According to COMMITTEE ESTIMATES that plan it is situated right opposite, or Mr Gale: Before we adjourn, Your nearly opposite, the road to Pulrose Excellency, may I move my resolution? Farm on the hill opposite Annacur Lane. I will not take two minutes because I I think that when we discussed it before, have some business to do this afternoon. and when a site was suggested, we said The Governor : Right, then, Mr Gale. that rather than have the main entrance on the hill that Annaeur Lane might be Mr Gale : I beg to move the resolution standing in my name:— used as a secondary road with an entrance to the new abattoir. I would That Tynwad requests His Excellency in consultation with the Finance Board, to give say it is situated—I have no rule but on consideration in framing the budget to th-.1 the frontage it is 30 to 40 yards—in a Estimates of the Local War Pensions Com- position where it would not be on the mittee as shown in the Book of Estimates fur skyline. and it is possible that they 1963/i34. could be persuaded to go further back Mr Corkish seconded and the resolu- where, perhaps, it would not be notice- tion was agreed. able or an eyesore. I think I have The Court adjourned for luncheon and answered most of the questions and I resumed at 2.30 p.m. hope the Court will support the resolu- tion.

Sir Henry Sugden: There was a point MANX ELECTRIC RAILWAY concerning item 23 of the capital esti- ESTIMATES mates—the bungalows at Laxey and The Governor : Well, gentlemen, we Lonan. Are these to be part of the will resume business with item 16 on plans under the new development the agenda. I call on the chairman of scheme for Laxey? the Manx Electric Railway Board.

Local War Pensions Committee Estimates,—Manx Electric Railway Estimates. 1096 TYNwALD COURT. APRIL 11, 196:1

Mr Colebourn : Your Excellency, I beg varying amounts so as to bring their to move the resolution standing in my deficiency to the required level of name:— £25,000. Now, Your Excellency, I have That Tynwald requests His Excellency in been a businessman for many years and colsultation with the Finance Board. to give my colleagues on the Board are consideration in framing the budg,it to the businessmen and I do feel it is wrong to Estimates of the Manx Electric Railway Board as shown in the Book of Estimates bury your head in the sands when you for 1963/64. look at a balance sheet—particularly if it affects other people's money and not Your Excellency.. I hope, not to take your own. And in this ease it is the too much time of the Court in this con- public's money we are dealing with, not nection but in presenting to Tynwald our own. Dealing with the estimates, the Manx Electric Railway Board esti- Your Excellency, they are £1,114 less mates for the coming year I must say than they were last year. The estimated that they are set out this year in a deficiency is £35,899 as compared with a manner that might at first sight appear deficiency grant last year of £25,000. to be in direct contradiction to the vote We are asking for this £35,899 as the of Tynwald in 1958 which stipulated deficiency grant this year and the main that the deficiency grant to the Manx reason we have done this is, as I have Electric Railway must be limited for the said, that the previous Board were de- next 10 years to £25.000. It is true of pendant on winter work schemes to course that the previous Board did in carry out maintenance. Now let us be fact, on the face of it, keep within that perfectly frank about this—the men we figure. But they could only de so by have employed on the winter work making full use of the winter works schemes are not just labourers; they are schemes to carry out the maintenance semi-skilled peonie who are employed in on the line. They were also helped in the summer time on the cars. What we previous years to balance their budget want to do now is to put them on our by drawing sums from the Accumulated staff permanently-- Revenue Account. It might surprise members, but there was one ! When Mr Kelly : We will be bankrupt with the present Board tock over a year ago that ! I discovered there was, in fact, £22,000 standing to the credit of the Board in Mr Colebourn : We will not you know. the Accumulated Revenue Account It could well be that there will be little made up by profits—yes profits—and unemployment this winter if the amounts allowed for depreciation. It is Government and private enterprise the intention of the present Board how- schemes for development go ahead. in ever to endeavour to present this Court fact I am hoping that the unemploy- with more realistic estimates and a ment register will be a very small one. realistic balance sheet. Now, I am not And if this is going to be the case we in any way criticising the previous have got to make sure that we have the Board when I say that because I remem- men available to carry on the mainten- ber, and I hone the Court will remem- ance necessary on our lines, The Court ber, that at that time there was no de- has approved the development of velopment Wan and the whole future stations at Laxey and Ramsey. They looked bleak in the extreme. The tem- have indicated that they want the Ram- per of Tynwald was quite different than sey line to remain open for it is no I understand it to be today ! The only use having a station unless you have way the previous Board could keep the lines and sleepers. But we are now within the limits set by Tynwald was faced. Your Excellency, with re-sleeper- by making full use of the winter work lag the line from Laxey to Ramsey. The development scheme and drawing from sleepers have been there for 60 years— the Accumulated Revenue Account far longer than the life-time of a rail-

Manx Electric Railway Estimates. TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 11, 1963 1097 way sleeper—and we must re-sleeper bring forward this development because the line now. To do that we have to no one else would. It is only right that have men and the men we have had— there should be some opposition to de- these semi-skilled workers I have refer- velopment plans and I do not resent for red to. You will see, Your Excellency, one moment the opposition which there from the estimates that we have allowed has been to the cbairlift. I think it is a sum of £16,000 for wages for the corn- right and proper that there should be opposition. What I am sorry about is ing year and that is to cover the con- the form in which that opposition has tinued employment at the 20 men I have come. I think it should have been con- spoken about. I don't think any mem- fined to the elected members of Tynwald bers can object to that expenditure for ratner than going outside it. We have wages. I just cannot believe it. Of not been over optimistic about the course it is up to you — it is your forthcoming summer, Your Excellency. railway. I am just running it for you We have estimated for the same num- to the best of my ability and trying to ber of passengers but we have found it take a realistic view of it. I am not a necessary to increase the fares. The dismal Johnny as so many of my hon. fares are going up some 10 per cent. colleagues seem to be. I am full of This is necessary. We will probably lose optimism. I think we are now on our about 2 per cent, through sales resist- way and will emerge as the main holi- ance and our net gain will be 8 per cent. day resort of Britain within a short I hope the Court will accept the esti- space of time. Fifty years ago, before mates in this form. We have handed to we went to sleep we were without any the Exchequer the balance in our doubt about it, the major holiday resort revenue account amounting to £12,000 of the United Kingdom and the British or £13,000. Apart from the £16,000 for Isles. Don't tell me that the wit and wages for maintenance the estimates genious of the Islanders is not the same bear very Closely to previous payments now as it was then ! I am certain and out and we are able to come forward have every confidence that this Island with an estimate of over £1,000 less will, within the five years that has been than last year. mentioned for the development plan, emerge to its rightful place to take the Sir Henry Sugden : I second the reso- lead of Britain's holiday resorts. To do lution and reserve my remarks. that it is essential that the Manx Elec- tric Railway should carry on ; it is es- Mr Bolton : I did say I did not intend sential that the horse trams should carry to say anything about these estimates on. But, you know, it could well be that but I cannot help but remark, par- you will not have a railway in a few ticularly in view of what the chairman years if you do not accept these esti- has said, that when the resolution of mates. I hope you do, however, because Tynwald was passed to continue the in a year or two I or someone else might Manx Electric Railway provided it did be coming here with the problem of not cost more than i'.25,000 a year I Snaefell. We might be wanting to build remember getting up and Saying it was a road up there—or whatever is the most a pious resolution which was quite im- economical way of doing it. We may possible for them to do. That has been even decide to. put a chairlift up from proved by the facts and Tynwald might Laxey to Snaefell. I fully understand as well have said "Get on with it re- opposition, Your Excellency. It is only gardless of cost" or "shut down." The right and proper for a democratic resolutions which have been passed government to have a strong opposition every year since have gone to prove it. and it is also essential in this hour of One question I would like to ask is development, seeing that our Executive whether', in view of the present con- Council have been forced in a corner to stitution, the Finance Board can am

Manx Electric Railway Estimates. 1098 TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 11, 1963 prove an estimate for £35,899 when Miscellaneous Services vote to the Court there is a resolution of Tynwald saying Mr Bolton challenged me. I quote from this must not be more than £25,000 for the verbatim report of Tynwald, 15th the next ten years. It appears that the May. 19112:— Finance Board might have said to the Manx Electric Railway Board that there Mr Bolton: May I ask a question, Your Excellency? He (Mr Stephen) did say a was a resolution that they could have resolution of this Court compelled the Court £25,000 and no more. It appears how- to provide £25.000 a year to the Manx Electric ever that the Finance Board have ap- Railway for 10 years and I he:leve I am right that the year was 1056. Now the Manx proved the presentation of this estimate. Electric Railway Act of 1957 says: -The I would like to be assured by the chair- Board shall yearly before the 31st day of man that he is not going to make any March furnish to the Governor, to be by him laid befort. Tynwald, an approximate application whatever for assistance to estimate of the amount required to he voted carry out work under winter' work by Tynwald for the purpose of the Board.- schemes. I take it that the reslution the hon. member has quoted supersedes the 1957 Manx Electric Mr Colebourn : I can give that assur- Railway Act. ance here and now. The estimates, I Mr Stephen: Mr Bolton has raised a point hope, are realistic. 1 would like to look into. Mr Bolton: I am only raising the matter Mr Bolton You will not want any as a question. further money if this is approved ? Mr Stephen: quite frankly the hon. member has worked on the assumption that the Mr Colebourn : I would not say any clause in th Act is paramount. The operation we were working on was the further money. report of 1956, but the mater will be looked into. Mr Bolton : But not from the winter works fund. Mr. Stephen: It has been looked into and I suggest to the Court that what- Mr Colebourn : No. ever arithmetical method was used, the Mr Bolton : When we talk about Court has been working for several £25,000 a year for the Manx Electric years on the premise that the provision Railway we are in fact talking about was for £25,000 for 10 years. 235,000, but we should be talking about Mr. Bolton: Surely when Mr. Irving £50,000 when we take into account other at the time proposed a resolution that schemes of the Manx Electric Railway the Manx Electric Railway should be Board which have been included under continued providing it did not cost more development schemes. There are two than £25,000 a year that is the resolu- schemes—one at Ramsey and one at tion which authorises this vote? Laxey—which should be added to the £35,000 to find what the total cost will Mr. Stephen: There is a legal point be. It will in fact he about double the here which perhaps the First or Second amount Tynwald decided should be Deemster may be able to advise us on. spent some years ago. No matter what was moved by Mr Trying it is a question of what is in the Mr Stephen : Could I make this Act. position clear. Last year and for several years past, the vote for the Manx Elec- Mr. Bolton: It does not override the tric Railway Board has been included in resolution. Miscellaneous Services vote at the flat rate of £25,000 a year. To that sum Mr. Stephen: The Act is paramount. various other sums have been added These estimates have been submitted year by year to carry out track main- to the Court in "accordance with the tenance and things like that as winter Manx Electric Railway Act 1957 section works. Last year when I presented the 22, sub-section (2) which says:—

Manx Electric Railway Estimates. TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 11, 1903 1099

The Board shall yearly before the 31st is going to tell you, sir, that you are March furnish to the Governor, to be by him laid lafore Tynwald an approximate estimate not going to employ twenty men. It is of the amount required to be voted by Tyn- not fair in the running of other depart- wald for the purposes of the Board. ments of Government and I think it is an unreasonable thing and I have said That has been done and the estimate that if this is going to be the policy according to the Act is now before the we might as well close down. Court. Mr Kelly: There is a Chinese proverb Mr Kneale: I do not want to disap- "A shut mouth keeps out the flies." If point the hon. member Mr Colebourn you open your mouth too much you are as he has given me the opportunity to liable to get into difficulty and I think speak on item 14, "rails, fishplates and Mr Colebourn has done so here. I am sleepers" amounting to 26,000 odd and surprised at him, a business man and I would ask him to take note of the a very successful one speaking on the considerable increase in this item. ft question of keeping staff all the year is justifiable maintenance I am sure but round. I employ about 12 to 14 people it underlines the money being spent on in the winter and 25 to 20 in the sum- maintaining this form of transport and mer. If I keep all 25 people throughout on the estimates being presented for the winter there would be nothing for schemes undertaken by the Highway them to do and they would be having and other Boards when compared with a holiday. I am sure too that if the the final cost of such schemes. The cost M.E.R. staff were employed all the year of the Marine Drive scheme was con- round they would be having a holiday siderably higher than the estimate and too. Not long ago the Health Services the Laxey Bridge estimate went up to Board was criticised because they paid £28,000 from the original estimate of off 12 employees at Ballamona who were £3,000. It was later altered to £14,000 redundant. The average wage was ,CI0 but on the final figure a hundred per a week so that was a saving of about cent was overspent and we should pay £6,000 to the Government. The hospital little attention to the estimates for has been carried on just as efficiently engineering projects such as chairlifts. —the people there perhaps have been We all know it is unfortunate but we doing a little more work. Here the can place no reliance on the figures. I M.E.R. Board are going to keep 20 men am going to support the retention of on in the winter, the M.E.R. and, having made my point, will support any worthwhile scheme Mr Colebourn: We need them. and I consider it worthwhile to retain it, Mr. Kelly: I do not know how the hon. member can argue about it. I Mr Radcliffe: I would particularly think the Court should turn down the like to say a few words in answer to idea of 20 more people being employed the hon. member for Ramsey. He seems by the M.E.R. to think that the Board is proposing to Mr. Colebourn: They are 20 we have keep on the summertime staff and I got. know that with the summertime staff it runs to 100 but when he is talking Mr. Kelly: That is an old game. You about the 20 men they are the key men have taken on 20 and you are trying to required for the maintenance and run- keep them on. What is the staff now- ning of the railway. One is a blacksmith, 80 or 100? This is the sort of thing a highly-skilled man whom you could which would kilt anyone's interest. I not get nowadays and he is one of the put the question to you—would you do kingpins in keeping the cars on the it yourself? If it was any other railway rails. Any firm would be tickled pink the answer would be "no." The Court to have such a man and if he was put

Manx Electric Railway Estimates. 1140 TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 11. 1963

off and got further employment the ant monies set aside were referred to M.E.R. would never get him back. He as "accumulations." On this particular was not one of the men taken on for point I might mention that if the Board winter works but he and other men of put in an order for rails the minimum the same type have provided the nucleus order that could be made was for of the energetic and hard-working old- £6,000's worth or otherwise it was not timers who have kept the temporary economical. Therefore you had to have staff and the winter works scheme men £6000 to pay cash and with £6,000's on the job, and have helped them and the railway to function under adversity. worth of rails you needed £4,000's I hope the hon. member Mr Kelly will worth of sleepers, so when you speak appreciate we are not Proposing to keep of accumulated revenue you are talking on the summertime staff in the way he of an accumulation of £10,000 to pay thinks. cash for that order. In any case we could not come to Tynwald to ask for Mr Kelly: Could the hon. member money and I hope the Court has not clear that point? I understand they were been given the impression that the men taken on for winter works. railway is hoarding any money or or hiding it away. We had to make the Mr Colebourn: I thought Mr Kelly purchase so I hope it will be accepted, was more aware of what went on. In whatever form it may appear in. I am the summertime we take on a lot of saying "we" but I am still wrapped up students to help us out and, as Mr Rad- in the M.E.R. and I am still with it in cliffe said, it might rise to 100, but we appreciating its value. have a nucleus. We have not been able to hold that nucleus of about 20 Sir Ralph Stevenson: I hope the chair- workers who work with us in the sum- man of the M.E.R. Board will be able to mertime for the wintertime. We have explain how far he regards track been able to employ them on winter enewals as being capital expenditure works but now we are afraid that at the for which the Board is able to borrow end of the summer they will be taken money. elsewhere for it would appear that the policy of the Government is to cut Mr. Coupe: I did not intend to speak down on supplying money for winter in this debate but I do want to .correct works. a wrong impression going round the Mr Kelly: How many men are you Court in regard to the Laxey Bridge. going to employ? The original estimate was £4,000. Mr Radcliffe: I think he has answered Deemster Kneale: £3.000. that but there are one or two things which could be suggested. It was never Mr Coupe: £4,000; that is the figure mentioned when I was the chairman of I have received from the office. There the Board that men on the schemes has been a statement made, a few should be taken off but there was a months ago, about the Laxey Bridge, system of intermixing so that the older that it cost £3,000 in the original esti- men employed on track clearance could mate and £28,000 in the finish. There be switched round to get the work done, has been the inference that you could the work for which money was voted. not depend on any of these prices. All that was thoroughly checked by the Nothing of the kind. The original scheme auditors and that brings me to the point bears no relation to the final. scheme. where the hon. member said he was The original scheme was for £4,000 and speaking about accumulated revenue. the idea was that the footpath would He did not explain the matter of de- only be a light footpath for pedestrians preciation and though I am no account- and a wall built,

Manx Electric Railway Estimates. TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 11, 1963 1101

Mr. Macleod: Has this anything to saying that the railway would not be do with the M.E.R.? able to run because he would not run a business on those lines. I am afraid The Governor: I agree this has noth- I would want something more for my ing to do with the estimates but I money, I believe that the first Board allowed the matter to be raised and I that took this on could have run it with am giving the hon. member Mr Coupe better results than what we are getting the courtesy of replying. today, with some encouragement to the staff. Mr Coupe: Thank you, Your Excel- lency. The original scheme was for a Sir Henry Sugden: In the summer of light footpath with a wall to keep 1959 I attended a tea party and it was at traffic from going on to the pavement. a military establishment which had to It was found that the wall was not do with transportation. I met there an what the people required as it would officer whom 1 knew quite well who be interfering with the traffic and that had returned, and I had a very inter- the traffic could go up on the pavement esting conversation with him because and they had to put in extra girders to he knew I came from the Isle of Man, carry the traffic. The cost of the girders and he had just become an inspector alone was £7,000 and the original of railways. He had. just returned from scheme bore no relation to the final inspecting the Manx Electric Railway scheme which cost £28,000. Your Excel- and the Isle of Man Railway and I had lency, the chairman of the M.E.R. Board a very full and frank conversation with said that fifty years ago our forebears him. I never dreamt then that I would did this, that and the other and that he subsequently become one of the non- hoped that we of this generation business men on the Board of the would do no less than they did. When I M.E.R., but I was definitely cmazed. listen to what goes on in this Court. I following my conversation to find on my wonder where we are going. return here that, in fact, the M.E.R. was still running and, somehow or Mr Corkhill: I have always supported other, it was considered as being able the Manx Electric Railway and I re- to run on what really is very flimsy member the time the take-over was support indeed. I don't know whether considered. At that time it was felt that it is because I am, as a non-business- £25.000 was a fair figure to run the man, in the minority on the Board, but M.E.R. Now it did at that time create I believe that this year we have in fact some embarrassment on the part of the the first honest budget the Manx Elec- Board as they found difficulty in making tric Railway Board has put out. ends meet but since the Board turned Mr Radcliffe: The hon. member says it down as being rather impossible at the first honest budget? On a point of the time there has been a considerable order, Your Excellency, is he implying amount of money spent in straightening that the previous Board and the audi- things out, and where are we going to tors were dishonest? (Laughter.) get to. We have got to face these things and if the M.E.R. is not able to put the Eir Henry Sugden: 1 am sure that I in prices on to make it pay I think there no way implied that. What I am sug- is something wrong with the adminis- g:,-sting is that in the past the M.E.R. tration or the running of the railway. Beard have tried to exist on £25,000 a We are told that the charges have been year and that, in fact, is—I am sure the put up by 10 per cent but there has hon. member will agree—quite impos- been £10.000 against the first £25,000 sible. I think we have to accept what for winter works schemes to straighten - n fact we really do require, and it is the lines and I would like to know the plain, for all to see. With regard total cost. It is not right the chairman to what my hon. colleague has said—I

Manx Electric Railway Estimates, 1102 TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 11, 1963 see he is not here at the moment—we of £8,000 in the estimates, which is have, as everyone knows, had consider- approximately what they intend to able winter work schemes every year over-spend on last year for the sake of and we have, through the years, em- keeping these men 52 weeks a year—not ployed more or less the same men on just for one year but permanently. It these. Because of this they have got is going to go on forever and a day. to know their work. During the sum- How on earth can you run a railway mer we do expand considerably: and like this when it was not found neces- although we can use most of these men sary to do so in the past? on other work, we cannot use them all by any means. What we require in the Mr Simcocks: Your Excellency, the summer are extra conductors and, on hon. member for Glenfaba has spoken the whole, these few other men are un- about the hack door method of obtain- suitable for such positions. I can assure :ng funds. What we have to-day is an the Court that we will employ all these event not unlike the event which oc- men that we have employed, in the past eurred five years ago. The M.E.R. for what has been previously winter Board then made the mistake of being work. They have been employed by us Loa straightforward in their estimates. for work on the track, but their work Five years ago Sir Ralph Stevenson, the has, perhaps, not been as efficient and hon. member for South Douglas and expert as if they had been employed evuelf brought forward an estimate for during better weather. I think that is -ipzrating the M ER, which was realis- something that people must realise. I tic, based on what, it was gong to cost. am sure, Your Excellency, that there L was a figure exceeding the one before will be no over-employment, and it will the Court to-day. At that time the be to our financial advantage to give Board were told they must restrict their these men stable employment through- :xpenses to £25,000. The Board en- out the year. deavoured then to obtain from the Executive Council a grant for winter Mr Kaneen: The hon. arid gallant work schemes in order to clear the member for Ramsey has staggered me, track from Laxey to Ramsey of weeds Your Excellency. I am all for main- and a considerable_ thickness of over- taining the M.E.R. as a member of the burden on the sleepers. This the Execu- Tourist Board, but if they are going to tive Council refused to do. In order to produce figures like this before the keep within the limit of £25,000 the Court then I am sure the day must come M.E.R. Board then had only two options when we will have to abolish the rail- open to them—either stop work on the way. I think it is ridiculous to suggest weeding of the track, which they knew that we should keep all our keymen on was necessary or to take oil' the winter a permanent basis when the railway service. The latter was considered existed before without this. Half the the proper decision to take but the men were on a temporary basis before Board met with opposition and there- and how on earth did the undertaking fore took what I regard as the proper run then? You must have been able to course, and resigned. A new Board was manage. I cannot, for the life of me. appointed and they said, We can run a accept this excuse that these people will winter service," applied to the Exec:u- not be available for next year because t:ve Council for a grant to weed the of the development due to take place. track and got it. That is the way. Your Development will take place, and it will Excellency, that the M.E R. Boardl has do so with our labour force, otherwise gone through the pretence of running we will have to import labour. I think the railway at a cost of £25,000 when we should get along as we did in the we know it has not been doing it. The nest. and I am going to move, accord- estimate before us to-day is one which ingly, that there should be a reduction is based on the fact that there will be

Manx Electric Railway Estimates. TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 11, 1963 1103 no winter work schemes payments Mr Quayle: Some few months ago, through the back door and it seems to Your Excellency, as part Of your de- me to be the most straightforward esti- velopment plan, the M.E.R. were mate for the M.E.R. which the Court authorised to carry out certain improve- has had before it since May of 1058. I men:s at Ramsey and Laxey. But al- only hope it does not meet the same though this Board has an energetic fate as the earlier one ! cha.rman, nothing has yet been done. Why is that? Mr Kneale: Your Excellency. Mr, Coupe challenged the figures which I Mr Kelly: I would like to second the gave-- amendment proposed by Mr Kaneen, The Governor: I am not prepared to four Excellency. I have no opposition accept discussion on the Laxey bridge o this Court voting money regularly for at this stage. Would the hon membet w2nter work schemes. You can do that please sit down? end carry on the same policy as in the past, but to ask us to permanently en- The Speaker: Your Excellency, I did gage 20 more men is, I think, going hope, and I still hope, that the original from the sublime to the ridiculous. De- type of resolution for £25,000 would velopment is going to take place, and I have stood, for no matter what has been am all for the M.E.R., but why should said to-day the IVI.E R. have not used a we deviate from the present policy? back-door method for obtaining assist- Theie are hundreds like me who are all ance. In common with other Boards of trying to make a go of it. These other Tynwald, this Board submitted and extraneous things the Government of made application for winter works the Island has done for years in con- schemes ,and when these applications nection with harbours and highways were considered on their merits the and so on—they may have to continue M.E.R. was considered suitable to re- with that kind of policy. At present ceive money. In consequence money there is prospect of development under has been given to the Board as part of orYate enterprise, and here we are the Island's winter work programme, taking people off the unemployment and it has helped them to improve the -egister, and when the summer comes very dilapidated state of the track—a you are going to have the whole of that ,faclor which should be of assistance to labour content employed on other the Board to-day. When the hon. schemes .Why does the M ER not con- chairman put forward the estimates for tinue on the lines we have adopted, in- his Board I was prepared to support it stead of introducing this dangerous without reservation because he made nrecedent? We should not allow the the point about the reduction of semi- M.E.R. to engage 20 extra men per- skilled labour in the summer, and that manently. they should be kept on In that ease I felt that was the sensible thing to do Mr Bolton: I feel I cannot support and should be accepted, but the hon. any amendment to cut the money being and gallant member for Ramsey has voted to the M.E.R. I have been con- given us an entirely new slant on this slan+ly in opposition to the continuation He says this is not the case—that thsse the MER I believe it is a shocking men are to be used for maintenance in waste of public money. But if it is de- the summer months. Sir Henry said -3i-ed to run the M.E.R., then this they could be used more effectively amount of money is necessary to do it. then. If I felt these men were to be I am not prepared to sunnort any solely used for track maintenance in the amendment to cut it by £3.000. I am summer months I would vote against certain the facts are that the amount of this resolution. If they are to be used money available for winter work for the running of the railway in the sethemes next winter will be cut con- summer that is quite a different matter. siderabl y and there is little hope of the

Manx Electric Railway Estimates, 1104 TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 11, 1963

M.E.R., Board getting any of it. They stomach for the job. I am delighted have previously been able to look for- that Mr Bolton is here, because he prob- ward to getting what they needed as ably more than anyone else appreciates winter works. They have had more a realistic balance sheet when he sees than £25,000, and I believe they need one. The previous Board was forced it. I am not complaining about the int° a position of—not being dishonest, cost of running the railway. What I far from it—they were forced through said was that it should not be run at the attitude of hon. Members to rely on all. I am sure if we cut this vote to- winter work schemes to carry on the day we will have a supplementary vote railway. The main objection appears from the M.E.R. to make it up. to be the number of men. In the sum- mer time we have perhaps 100 em- Sir Ralph Stevenson: Could I ask if ployees, including a lot of students. the chairman knows that there will be The regular staff is about 57, which in- little money available for winter work cludes the 20 men we have on winter next winter and is making his own work schemes. At the end of the sum- arrangements? mer they will go back on winter work schemes. We employ about 37 Mr E. Moore: The question of em- men on the track on maintenance in the ploying the men now is not so im- portant. What is more important is winter. We use about three in the that we depend on having the men summer for track maintenance. These from the track for conductors in the men are men who can take a car out summer. We depend on these men. and run to Ramsey or anything like that. They are not the kind of people Mr Corkhill: The hon. member for you can take from the Labour Ex- Ramsey, Sir Henry Sugden, has said change. f am surprised at Mr Kelly very few of these men are suitable for saying he takes people on in the sum- that purpose. I think that point should mer and ,sacks them in the winter. I be cleared up. also have a business employing 32 people all the year round. Very shortly Mr E. Moore: Certain of these men will have about a dozen men who I who are on winter work are conductors will not have work for, as the summer and drivers in the summer. Because of is our quiet time. But I will keep them this boom in development our unem- on so that I will have them for next ployment will drop. In the past when winter for the busy time. I carry them we have paid off some of these con- because I cannot go to the Employment ductors at the end of the season we Exchange and get a television engineer. have had no option but to wait for a It is the same with the M.E.R.. In reply certain lapse of time and then re- to the hon. member of the Council. we employ them on winter works schemes. have powers to borrow £ L00.000- We In future they may be well paid else- have borrowed £20,000, but I am where and the M E.R. will be looking against borrowing. I do not want to for conductors. Some of them have for borrow money, but we may have to use 30 years been happy to be conductors those powers in the near future when and drivers in the summer and work on we want to do ,somthing on Snaefell. It the permanent way in the winter. That is going to be a problem. The centre is the reason for the change of policy rail of the track is going and very soon of the Board. we will have to do something. The Governor: The chairman of the Sir Ralph Stevenson: Renewals as Board will reply. opposed to maintenance? Mr Colebourn: A year ago when I Mr CoIebourn: Yes. It was laid 10i) was presented with the chairmanship years ago and it was bent on the track of the M.E.R. Board, I said I had no when men were paid possibly 3d per

Manx Electric Railway Estimates. TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 11, 1063 1105

hour. Now it will be a different mat- The Governor: The amendment is ter. It is a problem which the Board lost in the Council and lost in the Keys will have to face up to. 1 do not know and I would like the acting member for what we will do. It might be if the Garff to resume his seat. chairlift over the Douglas harbour is successful we might adopt the idea for Mr Kelly resumed his own seat, Snaefell. I do not know at the The resolution was agreed, moment. I appreciate the support of Mr Stephen, Mr Simcocks, Mr Radcliffe and Mr Quayle, all past members, and Sir Ralph Stevenson, who all know the problems. With regard to Mr Quayle— MANX MUSEUM AND NATIONAL what about the Laxey station—in Tyn- TRUST—ESTIMATES wald last month I was asked when it The Governor: Item 17, the Manx would be done, and the feeling was that Museum and National Trust. I call on everyone said, "Get on w.th the job." the hon. member of the Council, Mr Next day the work was put in hand, but unfortunately we got word from the Farrant. Planning Committee to stop. The Plan- Mr Farrant: I beg to move the reso- ning Committee said the plans were not lution standing in my name:— acceptable. That Tynwald requests His Excellency In Mr McFee: You were asked to come consultation with the Finance Board, to give and consult with the committee. consideration in framing the budget to the Estimatls of the Manx Museum and National Trust as shown in the Book of Estimates Mr Colebourn: I had important busi- fur 1963/64. ness that day. It looks as if you are going to have the last hair of the tail of May it please Your Excellency, there the dog wagging the dog in develop- is an increase this year in the estimates ment. The committee ask for complete of £905. This is easily accounted for new plans for Laxey station—to spend and £560 is in respect of Whitley Coun- more public money on it, and that I will cil salary increases and we have to not do. estimate £150 for work required on the drains in the Museum grounds. The sum The Governor: I will put the amend- of £120 is to be expended on rehousing ment—that the estimates he reduced by the Kirk Michael cross-slabs inside the. £8,000. church, to safeguard these important The amendment was lost by 17 votes relies which have been suffering dam- to one in the Keys the voting being:— age, and also to improve the condition under which they can be seen. Hitherto For: Mr Kaneen—i. they have been housed in the lych-gate and it will be a great improvement if Against: Messrs. Corkhill, Macleod, they are put inside. There is also an Crowe,. Kerruish, Radcliffe. E. increase of £7.5 for the price of heating Moore, H. S. Cain, Quayle, Sim- and lighting. cocks, Matthews, Coole, Colebourn, Callister, Stephen. Coupe, Kneale, Mr Kaneen seconded. Kelly and the Speaker-17. The Speaker: I would like to com- There was laughter when Mr Kelly pliment the trustees and .1 hope they voted against, and he rose to correct will develop the Cregneish project this. which is of great value to the Isle of Man. Mr Kelly: I think it is most unfair. Anyone can make a mistake. The resolution was agreed.

Manx Museum and National Trust Estimates. TYNWALD COURT, APRIL II, 1963

BOARD OF SOCIAL SERVICES— ency for the year, The family allow= ESTIMATES ances for instance are paid out of Tynwald monies and this is purely the The Governor: Item 19. I call on amount set out in accordance with the the chairman of the Board of Social regulations passed in this Court. Old- Services. age pensions are next and this covers Mr Nivison: Your Excellency, I beg a group of people who because of their to move the resolution standing in my age and means receive a pension of 28s. 4d. which is not to be confused with the retirement pension. Under That Tynwald requests His Excel:eney. in the National Assistance Acts you will consultation with the Finance Board, to give consid:ration jn framing the budget to the notice little change in the amount of the Estimates of the Board of Social Services as item for this year although the scales shown in the Book of Estimates for 1953/64. have been increased. I did explain this Your Excellency, I do not intend on a recent occasion, the reasonbeing going through all the activities of the that there is a certain saving in Board. We have had prepared a full national insurance seeing it has been report consisting of 26 pages of the increased, but the amounts asked for many activities and it has been in the are similar to those of last year. The hands of the printers for a month, and cases outside the scope of national we had hoped that members would have ,assistance apply to certain epileptic a copy when the estimates were pre- cases which are sent to the :U.K. for santed. It is necessary for me to point treatment. Next is the Social Services out certain alterations which have Act and there is a small amount for occurred in expenditure and to allow repairs to certain homes throughout the myself to he questioned on certain of Island like the Rushen almshouses, the the activities of the Board. On turning Ballacosnahan Home in Peel and the to page 66 you will see, as far as widows' homes in Douglas and Cam- receipts are concerned, the first part, brian Place and the different homes items 1 to 8, in the administration which which we have to maintain throughout are the amounts necessary to cover the the Island. There is a slight increase total administration at a cost of in respect of the Rushen almshouses £60.000 under the different headings, which we have taken over and where and it has been put in for that purpose. we hope to do something in the coming The actual amount spent on administra- year. The great items are the next two tion split up into salaries., printing and the first of which is "Tynwald Supple- the like is on page 67 and it shows how ments." It is laid down by statute that those amounts are divided up, but on for every sum paid by the employer and page 66 it divides them into family the employee a similar amount is paid allowances, old-age pensions, national by Tynwald. Now the next item is the assistance and the like. Going down Tynwald subvention and this gives the the page we then have the income from Board some anxiety in the amount put the different types of contributions, forward each year to supplement our whet.her for fiat rate contributions. funds in order to make it 'possible to graduated contributions or industrial pay out the awards passed from time injuries and those are set out clearly. to time. I am sure there is no one in It must be noted that the total expendi- the Court who would wish that the ture 'amounts to 22,075.700 but about awards should- be less. It will require.' half of that is derived from contribu- 1L482,000, an enormous sum compared tions, both from the employer and the with last year's £330,000.. On this employee, and you will see that is set , matter the Board took the question 4.,p out. The most important part of the with the Government Actuary's Depart- estimate comes in the balance defici- ment and they suggested they might

Board of Social Services Estimates. TYNWALD COURT. APRIL 11. 196:1 1107

reduce this amount and the Government side the scope of national assistance Actuary recommended that the amount there is little change, those being the should be £532,000 but the Board took epileptic cases, and in regard to peisonal into consideration the fact that it is injuries (civilians) there are only .a few anticipated that the amount of con- people injured in the war. There are tributions will, be received in the next four in the Isle of Man and there is year and the year after and they asked little change there. The maintenance of if they could make a reduction of residential homes I have already men- £50,000 in the Actuary's recommenda- tioned. You will notice the amount tion. The Government Actuary agreed under the National Insurance Fund has we should be able to do this and take been increased because of the increases the amount of £72,000 out of the agreed by this Court whereby the Reserve Fund which is the equivalent national insurance benefits for a single of the amount we require to pay for person have been increased by 10s. and those people who do transfer from the for married people by 16s. Dealing with .,United Kingdom. I can assure you, the Industrial Injuries Fund there are Your Excellency the financing of al certain increases in certain amounts. I these items has exercised the Board and do not intend to say anything more its principal officers and a great deal of about the estimates as I have said we time and anxiety has been given and a will be issuing — and it is not our fault Jot of communications taken place that we have not had it sooner — a between the Actuary to try to find a report of our activities, a report which way of reducing the amount of the sub- contains the amounts collected in vention, We eventually arrived at graduated payments and all the amounts £482,000 which brings the amount re- received in contributions and the num- quired almost to a million pounds, bers of people receiving national assist- £999,800. That deals with matters on ance and the percentage of people page 66. I want to say too .that some receiving national assistance and an people may imagine that the bene- outline of our expenditure. I have told ficiaries from the United Kingdom are you how the Board are most.conscious a drain on our resources. That is not so. of the large amount of Tynwald sub- After constant communication with the vention but it is the necessary amount Ministry it has agreed to the transfer recommended by the Government from the Ministry to the Board of Social Actuary as the least amount we could Services of the actual amounts of the ask the Government to supply to keep value of the pensions to people coming the fund solvent. The amount in reserve over and which will pay the pension for is only sufficient for one year in the the rest of the people's lives. On page event of there being no contributions or 67 the items 1 to 13 deals with the other monies being received from Tyn- dividing of all the amounts under ad- wald. I move the estimates and I will ministration and there are little changes. be only too glad to answer any ques- The item of £15,000 shows that the Post tions I can. If have not got the Office make charges for paying out necessary information I can assure you different pensions- while there is also I will give the matter attention and give provision for the increase in salaries the information in due course. which are common through the service Mr Kelly: About this figure of - and there is a certain slight increase in £117,500 for widows benefits; could the the cost of material. Under the Family hon. member tell me the number of Allowance Acts there is little change widows on the Is:and? It would seem prom previous years and under the Old the Island was the Isle of Women—not Age Pensions Acts that amount will men ! drop because, since 1948, it has been obligatory for everyone to come under Mr. Nivison: The approximate num- the National Insurance. In cases out- ber is between seven and eight hundred.

Board, of Social Services Estimates. 1108 TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 11, 1963

Widows' benefits have been increased was a saving of £1,783 on non- and I am happy to say, too, that widows contributory pensions, £222 on personal can now earn up to £6 without affect- injuries, £836 on the Social Services ing their pension. Act, 1948 and, in certain cases outside Mr E. Moore: Could the chairman tell the scope of the National Assistance me whether he has anything to report Act there was a saving of £2,091. That on the possibility of a meals on wheels is a total of £34,989 ! Quite rightly, however, we cannot transfer money service for the Island? from one item to another. Your Excel- Mr Nivison: In answer to that point, lency, I beg to move the supplementary the Board have not given any active vote. consideration to it recently. In the past Mr Macleod seconded. they have considered it but it is a very big question. In England it is a service Mr Bolton : Could I ask the chairman which is carried out in many of the if the social services will co-operate industrial areas in conjunction with with the health services to prevent any voluntary organisations. I can assure fluctuation in family allowances ? the hon. member, however, that we wilt (Laughter.) go into this question but I cannot promise any immediate results. It would The resolution was carried. be difficult in our scattered area. The resolution was carried. HIGHWAY RATE The Governor : Before we rise for tea, gentlemen, could we take item 26 BOARD OF SOCIAL SERVICES— which I had intended to take im- SUPPLEMENTARY VOTE FOR mediately after the Highway Board £1,343 estimates ?. The Governor: Gentlemen, as the Agreed. chairman ot he Social Services Board Mr Farrant : I beg to move the has just been on his feet and these matters are in your mind, shall we take resolution standing in my name:— Thai a Highway Rate of of Bd. in the g item 24 next? I call on the chairman rateable value be levied on all corporeal real of the Social Services Board. estate within the Isle of Man (other than agricultural land and agricultural buildings Mr Nivison: I beg to move the resolu- arid real estate in the Borough of Douglas, tion standing in my name:— the TOMIS of Castletown. Peel and Ramsey, That Treasurer of the Isle of Man he and the Village Districts of Port Erin and authorised to apply from the Current Port St. Mary). such rate to be payable on Revenue of this Isle during the year ended the 12th day of May, 1963. 31st March. 1962, a sum not exceeding &1,343 Mr Coupe seconded and the resolution In respect of expenditure under the Family Allowances Act; such sum to be additional was carried. to the sum of g801.600 voted by Tynwald on the 20th June, 1961. This vote is in respect of family allow- SUPPLEMENTARY VOTES ances, Your Excellency. It is difficult for the Board to anticipate the number The Governor : Gentlemen, are you of children to be born in any one year prepared to take item 25 also ? and we have underestimated the amount Agreed, this year by £1,343. I would say, how- Mr Stephen : I beg to move the ever, that there have been savings on resolution standing in my name:— other accounts. There was a saving of (1) That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man £3,705 on national insurance, a balance be authorised to apply, during the year ended of £27,693 in national assistance, there 31st March, 1962—

Board of Social Services—Supplementary Vote for £1.343.—Highway Rate.— Supplementary Votes TYNWALD COURT. APRIL 11. 1963 1109

(a) from the Current "Revenue Of this If I can help the Court I will give an Isle a sum not excee.ding £34,740. as set out in the First Schedule hereto. assurance that the items referred to in such ;Juni to be additional tO the the supplementary estimates as set out sum of ;Z3,975,055 voted by Tynwald in the schedules have been examined on the 19th June, 1962; and recommended to the Court. If you Ili) from monies to be borrowed, a sum riot exceeding S.:3,100 as set out in wish me to go into details I shall but in the Second Schedule hereto; and the meantime I will confine myself to (2) That Tynwald approves of sums not simply moving the resolution, and exceeding (a) £1200, and (b) b.:.1 900, being .schedules 1 and 2, borrowed by Government under the pro- visions of the Isle of Man Loans Act. 1250. to Mr Kaneen seconded and the resolu- enable the payments set out in the Second Schedule hereto to be made. tion was carried. FIRST SCHEDULE The Governor : Well, gentlemen, we _Lem Department or Board Amount shall now adjourn for tea. No. 1 Emergency repairs to Castle- The Court adjourned for tea and re- town Sea Wail 610 2 Harbour Board sumed a few minutes later, 3 Highway- and Transport Board 22.700 4 Tourist Board 4.50) a Many Museum and National Trust 2:t0 TOURIST BOARD ESTIMATES 134.740 The Governor We have four more items and a short canter home. (Laugh- •

se ter.) Item 20— I call on the hon, o member, the chairman of the Tourist Board.

Purp Mr Quayle : I beg to innve the resolu-

or tion standing in my name: — me That Tynwald requests His Excellency in hu consultation with the Finance Board, to give Sc consideration in frilming the budget to the Estimates of the Tourist Board as shown ill the Book of Estimates for 1963/64. 1 Board of Agricultural 1.200 Additional Agrieut- Credits Acts to the sum May 1 commence by paying tribute to lure and of Cl orta Fisheries voted by the Finance Board with whom we have Tynwald o n 19th worked closely and well this year. June. 1962 Working on the basis of " if you cannot Item I. Page 74 of beat 'em, join 'em," I think we have got the Book of them with us. During the financial Estimates. 1962 / 412 year ended on the 31st March last, the refei s. Board's grant, including the supplement- Local Doug'ias ary; amounted to £130,000. The Board Govern. Crematorium 1,900 Additional m is ii t to the sum seek a grant from the Government in Board of £3.400 the next financial year of ,C.142,665. The voted by Tynwald reasons for the increase are as under. O a1Ptii Firstly, the expenditure of the Race June, 19,i2. Item 11, Committee has risen by £4,000. This is Page 110 of due to two reasons. The Race Commit- the Book of Estimate-. tee has received representations from 1 9 6 2 / 6 3 the A-C.T.J. that some financial assist- refes's ance should be paid to competitors taking part. in the T.T. Races. Each year the cost of entering this event,

Tourist Board Estimates. 1110 TYNWALD COURT, APRIL .11, 1983

which gives so much enjoyment to this item £5,000 is a reserve item for visitors and which provides such an special expenditure, details of which ,attraction, continues to rise. Unless have been indicated to the Finance riders are in the very highest category, Board but which I am not yet in a the hope of financial reward is small. If position to announce to the Court. I a rider is unfortunate enough to damage hope to be able to elaborate on a later his machine, and this can so easily hap- occasion. It could be that this £5,000 pen, he is faced with not only the repair will not be required and if so, this will lead to a reduction in the Board's esti- of his machine but he also possibly mates by this figure. The other major loses the chances of entering other increase in the estimate for the promo- events. I would ask hon. members to tion of sporting events and attractions is regard this as a help for expenses an increase of £2,000 in the cost of the rather than starting money. It is essen- organisation of the Easter Festival of tial for the success of the meeting that Music and Dancing, competitors in competitors should take part in reason- which will be arriving in the Island aule numbers and the tendency of recent within the next few days. This ex- years has been for the number of entries tremely colourful and interesting event to decline. We hope that the modest was held for the first time last year. payments which it is proposed to make Every credit is due to Mr Harry Pickard will be of assistance to riders and will and his gallant band of voluntary be taken as a gesture of the esteem and helpers who have spent so much time in admiration which we in the Isle of Man presenting a unique attraction at a time feel for these young men who take part of the year when we can well do with in this outstanding sporting event. The additional attractions in the Island. I second reason which has led to an in- will admit that the high cost of financ- crease in the Race Committee estimate, ing this event has caused some concern. is that the Board has now to face the There has been much hard bargaining whole of the cost of the promotion of between the, -Board and the organising the International Cycle races and the committee. Much as the Board wishes Two-Day Trial. In the past the June to support voluntary endeavour and Effort and Season Extension Committee initiative, it has to be recognised that has been able to make a grant of £1,150 there is a limit to the amount of money to the Board to assist in these promo- which can be made available from tions. It is no secret that the finances government sources for such enterprise. of the June Effort and Season Extension Committee are in a parlous state. The Mr McFee How much ? committee is not in a position to con- tinue financing either the cycle races or Mr Quayle : £5,000. We hope that the two-day trial and many bther events the public in the Isle of Man will play which in the oast have been either their its part by supporting the event to the whole or part responsibility. The Board fun, by going to see the wonderful pro- has therefore seen fit to take a number grammes which have been arranged by of these events under its own wing, thus these groups coming from as far aflel leaving the June Effort and Season Ex- as Sardinia, Germany and other tension Committee to continue to play European countries. Given good box the role which it has done in the past in office support, the event has the promise the affairs of the visiting season—the of being able to stand on its own feet financing of speculative and experimen- but only full support from the Manx tal promotions requiring a limited bud- people and our visitors who will be here get. Secondly, the cost of promoting at Easter can ensure this. I may say other events and attractions in the Isle that we are considering whether Easter of Man has risen from an estimate of is the proper time to hold this event or £3,000 last year to £14,500 in 1963. Of whether it would be a greater financial

Tourist Board Estimates. TYNWALD COURT, APRIL .11, 1963 11.11 success and a greater visitor attraction Fleetwood this year will lose the Island if it was held later in the year. These between 70.000 and 80,000 visitors." I are matters which we shalt resolve dur- as very sorry to have to say that my ing the next 12 months. Thirdly, an forecast was correct. The Island lost increase of £5,000 has been allowed for 74,000 visitors in 1962, as compared with increased newspaper advertising. As I 1061, of which number 35,000 were day forecast 12 months ago, the Board this excursionists and 39,000 were period year reshaned its policy on newspaper visitors. To read the forthcoming advertising. Specialised advice was season is not easy. There is every in- taken from our advertising agents, who dication that, thanks to the Union of are the experts who guide the Board, Post Office Workers conference, the Co- and it was recommended that large operative conference and the conference spaces should be taken in important of the Ancient Order of Foresters,. the Sunday papers and weekly magazines months of May and early June will be during the period of January. The better than in 1962, T.T. Week should Board placed a series of 11in. across be even better in 1963 than in 1962, four - column advertisements in the when it was then a very good week. " People," " Sunday Express," "Sunday This will undoubtedly he due to the Pictorial," "News of the World," wonderful weather experienced in T.T. "Woman," "Woman's Own " and a num- Week last year and the fine racing which ber of important provincial newspapers. was witnessed. and also because we The cost of these advertisements was always find that the T.T. which im- very great. Over £2,000 in the "People," mediately follows the Board's efforts at and a further £2,000 for one insertion in the cycle and motor cycle industries the " News of the World." We hope exhibition at Earl's Court, which is held that the impact which these advertise- every second year, is better than the ments have had will be reflected in the T.T. Week which comes in the years visitor arrivals. They have certainly when there is no motor cycle show, Late been reflected. in the postal inquiries of June should be better in 1963 due to the the Board which have been sufficiently fact that Rochdale has transferred its encouraging as to justify a reprint of Wakes Weeks from August to this the Isle of Man guide for this year. period. Bookings for July and August Under the other headings of the Board's have so far been rather slow but there expenditure the pattern is very much are signs of an improvement. There as in previous years. We are living in a has undoubtedly been much uncertainty time of still increasing costs. On bill- about holidays this year. Unemploy- posting alone the cost of billnosting sites ment has been heavy and wintry con- has risen by between 25 and 30 per cent. ditions tended to make people think less in the past 12 months. A further rise of holidays and more of survival. The in newspaper advertisements may be airlines have reported that bookings expected. In such a competitive indus- have re-commenced after a very slow try, my Board has taken the view that March and, providing this trend con- there can he no let up in its publicity tinues, I am confident that the vacancies drive. When the rates go up we have in July and August which now exist to meet them. 1 can assure Members, will soon be filled. I think however that however, that every economy is we should be foolish to be over-optimis- achieved and every scheme is most care- tic over the prospects for this forthcom- fully examined. It is normal at this ing season. There is certainly less money time of the year for the chairman of the available in those areas from which we Tourist. Board to give some indication draw our visitors and the increases in of the prospects for the forthcoming fares to the Isle of Man, especially air season. When I presented the estimates fares which have risen by as much as to the Court on the 17th May, 1962, I 20 per cent., must undoubtedly work to said "1 envisaged that the closure of Our disadvantage. I see that certain

Tourist Board Estimates. 1112 YNWALD COURT, APRIL Il 1963

honorable members have been saying Mr Stephen: I am supporting the vote that it is fortunate that no Isle of Man but I would like to ask one question. Government money was placed in Fleet- The Governor: The hon. member for wood because now Dr. Beeching has West Douglas has the floor. closed Fleetwood station. I think this point has little validity. Fleetwood is Mr Kneale: I would like to congratu- to retain its railway station at Wyre late the Tourist Board on advertising Dock and no difficulty would have been "Bargain Holidays" and not as a place experienced in obtaining transfer of for cheap holidays, and it may be that passengers from rail to steamer, and my words have borne fruit. I think they who is to say that if we had been have produced an excellent guide but I courageous and retained the Fleetwood would like to make a suggestion that service, that all the benefits which this they should make sure the advertisers service meant to the Isle of Man we in the guide do not mislead the visitors, should not also have saved Fleetwood The Douglas Corporation advertise the station upon which considerable sums swimming pools in Victoria Street as of money had been spent by the Trans- "luxurious seawater baths" and nothing port Commission with the expectation is further from the truth. I cannot that it would still be required for the congratulate some of the members of Isle of Man service. If I was asked at the Tourist Board on the speeches this stage to prophesy our arrivals for they have been making in their official 1963. I would estimate approximately capacity in public and I recommend 450,000 with a possibility of improve- that they ask the whole Board to vet ment if the recent budget has the effect their speeches as so much bad publicity of improving the employment situation can be given in the presence of the in the North of England and in Scot- English Press. Now, on item 5, "Pub- land. On the attraction of permanent licity Printing—guides, folders, broch- residents I am sure this campaign is ures, stationery, etc." I would like to proving a success. The £5,000 per know how much of the £22,000 spent annum which is allocated towards ad- in this respect was spent on the Island, vertising and towards the publication of and whereas I realise the difficulty in a brochure is money well spent. During having the guide printed on the Island, the past financial year, 3,042 enquiries this type of folder (produced) could be were received from prospective resi- produced on the Island. I admit that dents and 4,729 booklets were dis- most of the £4,800 overspent last year tributed. We all know, from our own was accounted for by advertising on personal experience, of new faces who television and newspapers. The chair- have taken up residence amongst us and man told us earlier in the year that this the building industry and the trade of type of advertising accounted for a the town is undoubtedly enjoying the 33-A increase in applications yet Mr boom in catering for new residents' re- Coupe has said that the bookings were quirements. If there are any questions. the worst for several years. Will the which hon. members wish to raise on hon. chairman give us the assurance the figures which have been placed that guides are not going to people who before them, I shall of course be only collect these guides; how many are going too happy to deal with these points in outside the British Isles and how many my reply. Could I, in conclusion, thank are sent overseas? my colleagues and the staff of the Tourist Board—one of the most efficient Mr Stephen: I am supporting the vote. staffs employed in the Government—for I think it is a reasonable vote in view their co-operation and help during the of the potentials a the tourist industry past year. but there is one question I wish to ask and it really arises out of the annual Mr Colebourn seconded. report of the Board for the year ended

Tourist Board Estimates. TYfilly'ALD COURT, APRIL 11, 1963 1113

31st March, 1962. It is a. summary of are on a hot seat, believe me. I am told the activities of the Board but it ex- by my constituents that they have rung pressed opinions on major questions of up on the telephone and asked to take policy, one of which was whether old age pensioners at £4-5-9 a week- there should be a charge or a tax on 12/.. a day. Is this the way we are going people coming to the Isle of Man during to raise our standards ? In 1947 my T.T. Week in an attempt to increase price at this time of the year, with 23 the amount received from the races. It people in, was 12/6d. and by 1952 I had is unfortunate that more was made of in my establishment 92 people for Easter it than I would have expected and I and I could have had 192 if r had think we received undue publicity allowed them to come in. It was me which gave the impression that we who stopped them from coming. That, would impose the tax during T.T. Week. Your Excellency, is what good catering I am •sure that the Board have con- does. You cannot possibly cater at 12/- sidered this as a question of policy and today and give satisfaction — and yet I tee] they should have brought it for- it is only if we satisfy our visitors who ward for a project discussion rather come to us that we are going to make than put it into their report. a success of our industry. When I listen to what is said in this Court I some- Mr Coupe: Your Excellency, I rise to times despair and, believe me, I do not support the resolution before us. This give in easy to despair. But sometimes time last year I stated that all estimates just wonder where we are going. The that came to us from the other Boards hon. member for West Douglas says I wowd De as nothing it the Tourist Board must not lose sight of the main objec- did not make a success of their ven- tive—wet weather facilities. Your Ex- tures. The hon. member for West Doug- cellency, I do not lose sight of any las has bid us about the advertising objectives. Every material possession of bargain holidays through advertise- I have in the world is bound up in the ment in the papers, and it was in quite welfare of the Island and that is why a number of papers. A number of my I speak like I do. I have very little constituents approached me over the money invested across the water either advertisement and said it was not fair —it is bound up here. When I work my to them to have specific establishments good lady helps me in my line of busi- picked out and I wrote to the Tourist ness. That is why it makes me despair Board on this matter. There is no that it could all be frittered away by question about it, Your Excellency, that people who do not know what they are certain members of this present Court talking about. and those who have been in the Court in the past said that the industry of Mr. Kaneen ; As chairman of the Old which I am a member fix their prices Age Pensioners Holiday Scheme I can far too cheap. There is no question say, Your Excellency, that we have about that. Certain members have said never approached anyone to take people it. Mr. Kneele, the hon, member for at prices lower than those quoted. West Douglas, has referred to this ad- People are asked if they would like to vertisement for a 'bargain holiday.' take some of the pensioners and these This kind of holiday is available to old receive special forms. We have had an age pensioners in the months of May exceptional demand for this type of and June. They have second class sea accommodation. So much so, in fact, that travel, accommodation, one coach tour we have had to ask people not to lower and one concert — all for the magnifi- their tariffs to take more people in. Our cent sum of £6-15-0. Now, Your Excel- figures are well up in the last fortnight lency, I realise the job the Tourist in June and we are asking some if they Board has got. No one realises the posi- will come at the back end of the year. tion they are in better than I do. They I think a tremendous amount of damage

Tourist Board Estimates, 1114 T YNWALD COURT. APRIL 11. 196:1 can be done by irresponsible statements however, in what is possibly one of the in this Chamber, Your Excellency. Bad most ruthless commercial enterprises to- publicity can wipe out what this vote is day. We have competition not only from for. if we believe in our industry we resorts in Britain, but severe competi- have to put our best side forward. We tion also from cheap cruises. It will be have got to have confidence. possible this summer, for example, for a man to go on a week's cruise aboard Mr McFee: Your Excellency, I want a luxury liner for just 230. That is very to say first of all that the statement severe competition. I was one of the made by the chairman of the Board is Board, Your Excellency, to try this—as very disturbing, I believe it to be an I have done every year, to re-design our honest one, and being honest it is not advertising. It is a difficult job to pro- encouraging. I wonder what is our ject in a newspaper ad. a true picture of target now ? At one time we could our lovely Island. Anyway, we discussed attract 600,000 people to the Island. this with the best advertising practi- Could the hon, member suggest today tioners in the world. I have had them what is a reasonable target ?. I believe over here and shown them our adverts. there is difficulty in getting visitors here. ing. They have said to me that before So what are our inquiries like ? Are we waste our money what we must do they down ? It is possible that after is to re-design the product. And that is receiving replies to their inquiries our what we are now trying to do. We are potential visitors are either disappoin- trying to redesign the product and ted, discouraged, or find the Island is create an atmosphere which has been not exactly the place they want to come missing from our Island for a great to. If that is the case, then one can many years. Your Excellency, I have reasonably accept the position that our been in commercial life for a great many visiting population is smaller. On the years, and I am therefore interested in other hand, if inquiries are down, that haw products are put over to the public, gives a different picture completely. If and I do know that in many cases an inquiries are dcwn, then the Island is advertising Practitioner will go to great ceasing to be a popular visiting resort. lengths to put over his commodity, I would be interested, Your Excellency, whether it is a spring mattress or some- in a comparison of figures over the last thing else. What I want to impress on few years, because I believe that could members, Your Excellency, is that we be the fundamental basis of an inquiry have got to take our coats off and get into the Island's position as a tourist down to business. At the turn of the resort. Our economy depends on the century — in 1913 — we had a wonder- tourist industry, and if we merely deal ful season as a Victorian holiday resort. with minimums we will never have a Then the war came along and we lost prosperous Island or tourist industry. the tourist industry during those years. This is the bread and butter industry We earned a lot of money through that for the Island, and if this is not pros- war in various ways and I was one of perous and aiming at maximums instead the veterans who came back with so of minimums, then I don't know where much money in my 'Docket that I didn't we will be. It may be that we will have work for a few years. I didn't care a to look for an alternative industry and hang 1 change our whole economy. It may even be necessary for an inquest on the whole A Member: You must have been a question, in private, of course. general to do that. A Member: Or living on wind! • Mr Colebourn: In supporting my chairman's speech, Your Excellency, I Mr Colebourn: I was a private soldier would like to say in reply to Mr McFee —that's all. What I am trying to explain that our inquiries are well up, We are, is that this gave people a false sense of

Tourist Board Estimates, TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 11, 1R63 1115 security. By 1939, however, we were that the question of entertainment is coming to the stage when the develop- again a problem in the Island. One must ment plan should have come forward. admit that the companies concerned are But that development did not come. The facing new and difficult circumstances, war came instead. We made a lot of but if we go on like this, if we go on money out of that, make no mistake putting on the type of entertainment we about that, but instead of turning it into have been doing, we cannot expect the capital goods that brought money in, we visitor arrivals to go up, and Govern- spent it on non income earners. Now. ment intervention in that field would be Your Excellency, we are due for another warranted. I am not despondent .about war — another 20 years have gone lay. the visiting industry if we can get on But no war is coming this time, so we the ball quickly in relation to develop- have got to take our coats off and get ment, and I am concerned in this con- into the job ourselves. I am just saying nection that we appear to be beginning this to impress on the Court how vital to get tied up in our own red tape. We it is to create a modern holiday resort are finding that certain developments— in this Island, minor ones — are being held up, per- haps by planning, and I hope we will The Speaker: I wish to support the be able to get through this web which resolution, I was interested to hear the may hold us back. It is essential that the point made that we were re-designing major part of our development plan the product we can offer the visitors. should go into operation — the first This is an important. thing. When in 1955 steps — in the next twelve months. We the Visiting Industry Commission got to have got to get a climate of attraction work, they pointed out the obvious to bring people here, and then the visitor things which were necessary. It has figures will get back to what we would taken years to get some of those recom- like to see. mendations — the casino was one — Mr H. S. Cain: When we compare the implemented. It was suggested that the arrival figures now with those in days enquiries could be used as a barometer gone by, we must bear in mind that in of what the season may be, but I have these days the people only stopped for served on the, Tourist Board, and my a week on average. Now they stop experience Is that you cannot relate longer. If a person is staying for a fort- arrivals to enquiries. It is no indication night, by the end of the first week they whatever of the portents of the season. have been to the Coliseum and have seen I do think an important point is this: the show, and they have a coach round in re-designing this product we cannot the Island. and the next week they do afford to waste the next eight years as not know where to go. I think it is a we have wasted the last eight years. question which should be urgently con- Whatever development we have must be sidered. But I wonder are we as bad as done quickly. We have got to modernist hotels and boarding-houses, get new we think. When people stay for a fort- hotels and so on, and a new car ferry night instead of a week as they used to do, you cannot expect the arrival figures should be laid down right now..I believe to be as good. I wonder if any sort of a there is a great potential there, but I am afraid we are going to miss out again census is taken week by week to show how many people arc on the Island, by being unable to cater for the people. which would indicate whether we were We are envisaging developments for this type of holiday — the bungalows at as bad as we think we are when we compare the figures with the times when Laxey and the question of assistance for people were only here for a week. possible .development of the Holiday Camp. We want a car ferry. Private Mr Quayle: I would like to thank the enterprise must also be on the ball in Court for its general support, and I will relation to development schemes. I feel briefly answer some of the more impor-

Tourist Board Estimates. 1116 TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 11, 1963 tant questions. With reference to Mr which shows our view on it — against. Kneale, who asked a question whether With reference to old age pensioners' our printing could be done on the Island holidays, Mr Coupe said the Tourist — of the £20,000 for printing, £5,000 or Board is asking peonle to take anyone at £6,000 is spent on the Island. The bal- any price, ance is mainly the Guide and the folder. The Guide is done in Norwich, and for Mr Coupe: A constituent of mine has the folder they use the same type set as been asked on the phone to take old age the Guide, and thereby do it cheaper. pensioners at E4 5s. 0d. a week, That is tied to the Guide in the contract. I can say, however, that where possible Mr Quayle; Boarding-nouse keepers Tourist Board printing is done on the have been asked who is interested in Island. I was also asked did we send taking old-age pensioners. It is up to Guides to people who like to collect the person to be interested or not. There Guides. Of necessity that happens. We is no compulsion. They are asked what cannot sort out the people who collect the tariff will be and they say what they Guides from those who may come on will charge. The Tourist Board then holiday, If Mr or Mrs Smith write and receive inquiries from old-age pension- ask for a Guide, we cannot tell if it is from a genuine prospective visitor or an ers and we give them the price range 18-year-old Teddy Boy from Leeds or and a complete list of accommodation in Bradford. On the question of TV adver- that range. We do not recommend a tising, the Board has been alive to the price or a place. dubious value of it TV advertising Mr Coupe: The people who were asked might persuade a housewife to buy a on the 'phone to take these old-age particular soap powder the morning pensioners at £4 55. 0d. a week were after a TV advertisement, but for a thing not even on the list to which the chair- like a holiday, which people think about man of the Board refers, carefully, we do not think it is as good as it is made out to be. Mr Quayle: I' have no knowledge of this one — it is entirely contrary to A Member: Butlin uses TV. policy, and I do not see how it can happen. I will look into it. Mr McFee Mr Quayle: Yes, but Butlin sells a asked about arrivals, We have always product on TV, while we are selling a tended in the Isle of Man to pay too different thing — an image. Most TV much attention to the number of people advertising is done in magazine pro- who come off the boat. The important grammes — we may be one of six resorts thing is not so much how many people, in it. and we cannot say how many but how long they stay. If you have bed enquirers are interested in the Isle of space for 50,000 people in the Island and Man in particular. It might be assumed the staying time is a week, in twelve that one-sixth may be, but it is artificial weeks you are turning over 600,000 buttressing of our enquiry figures, and visitors. If visitor arrivals are 300,000, we do not like it. We are, in fact, 13,000 and they stay for two weeks, you still enquiries no from Press advertising and have the same turnover on capital. We 22,000 down from TV advertising in find that now the average stay is magazine programmes. On balance, we 13 point-something days. The trend iS to would say that 13,009 up on Press adver- stay longer, and what we need is more tising is more valuable than 22,000 down accommodation, on TV. Mr Stephen asked about T.T. Week tax. Since this was in the Tourist Mr McFee: On a point of information, Board's report, we take the responsi- Mr Speaker said numbers of enquiries bility for it. The Board have made no had no relation to the visitors who come. approach to anyone in this direction, Would the chairman of the Board not

Tourist Board Estimates. TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 11, 1963 1117 say that if there was a big increase in Mr Quayle: I cannot correctly give enquiries he would expect more visitors, an answer to the hon. member. I think or less ? it is in the region of 11 days. That is forgetting the trippers last year, Mr Quayle: Theoretically, more. But many other factors enter into it. Our Mr Bolton: The reason I asked is enquiries come mainly in January, that I was looking at the visiting in- February and March, but the Budget is dustry report yesterday and they called it 10.7. The trippers were included in in April, and a person who intended to come to the Island in January, February the details and it does give a wrong or March might find it impossible on impression. 1st June. That is one factor. Mr Quayle: It was originally 13 days. I do not think I have missed any points Mr Coupe: We are talking about but there was one point on which I was enquiries, not the question of how long waiting for the hon, member for North people stay. Let the chairman of the Douglas. He appears to have gone Board give us facts. I-low many enquiries missing again and I had a complete did the Board have last year and analysis of the financial costs for tele- whether they are up or not this year. phones. (Laughter.) Then we will get the true picture. The resolution was carried. Mr Quayle: Inquiries at the moment are running about 130,000,, because we ordered 130,000 guide books and we had to order another 10,000. Yet the figure in ISLE OF MAN ELECTRICITY BOARD 1948 was 42.000, and that was a smash- —CAPITAL ESTIMATES OF £37,089 ing year. The job of the Tourist Board is to put over the aims of the Isle of Man The Governor: Item No. 21. 1 call on and you cannot directly relate enquiries the chairman of the Isle of Man Elec- to actual bookings. They are based on tricity Board. eccnomics, and I want you to bear in Sir Ralph Stevenson: I beg to move mind this important factor. I envisaged the resolution standing in my name:— an increase early last year, but through some factor outside our control we lost That Tynwald requests His Excellency in our visitors, but we are now coming up consultation with the Finance Board, to give consideration in framing the budget to the the hill again. Do not compare 1962 Capital Estimates of the Electricity Hoard as with 1956 on the same basis. We lost a shown in the 13ook of Estimates for 1963/64. complete set of transport. Again, from the air, as you heard me question the I shall be very brief. The farm scheme chairman of the Airports Board, we are is approaching completion and the Elec- already down in the number of aircraft tricity Board consider that another for June, and they are fully booked, and £15.000 will be required on this account I am glad to hear Mr Nicholls say there and have, accordingly, put forward a will be night flights. total estimate of £37,089, as hon. mem- bers will see from page 83 of the esti- Mr Bolton: Could I ask the chairman mates. This figure is composed of the could he elaborate the length of stay? unexpended portion of the sum shown have been interested in this point and in column 5 (£22;089) and the £15,000 I am inclined to think that trippers are which will eventually be required. This included in arriving at the total and it does not mean that the Board have only would be as well to have the figures done £5,000 of work in the last financial excluding the trippers so we could have year. We have, in fact, done about the average length of the staying visi- £11,000 worth but we have not yet put tor. the bills into the Finance Division.

Isle of Man Electricity Board—Capital Estimates of £37.089. 1118 TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 11, 1963

There has been delay in carrying out farm schemes and these are not the projects approved by the Board of ordinary estimates before the Court. Agriculture and by the Government The Electricity Board is a self-support- and apart from the weather which ing organisation and no public money certainly has not been kind this winter. is involved at all. All I would assure this delay is generally due to the long the hon. member for Ramsey is that time it takes to get way-leaves and to there is a long-term policy in which we the fact that, without increasing our have asked for some Government help staffs uneconomically, we cannot work in general for undergrounding cables in faster. No blame attaches to the Board and around towns and a start has been of Agriculture as people sometimes made in North Ramsey and that policy think is the case. The Board has 15 will be continued when we can spare applications for the supply of electricity the money,. but we do not want to and these will be costed as soon as spend too much or the electricity tariffs possible for the approval of the Board will go up too high for the economical of Agriculture and by Your Excellency. working of the organisation. The sup- It may well be that the whole of the ply to Garff has concerned us and we £15,000 will not be required but there do our best, but we hope, in future, are in the Island a further 32 farms when we have succeeded in replacing and farm cottages for which no appli- our overhead transmission lines with cations have been received and these the new transmission lines about which will have to be investigated in due the hon. member for Ramsey spoke course. about three to four weeks ago, we will Mr G. H. Moore seconded. be able to do something. We have been using that particular kind of trans- Mr Kelly: Could I ask the chairman mission line for some time and we are a question? Ramsey is the biggest gradually replacing the whole of our consumer of electricity on their books. network. We hope to do better but it I wonder if there is any chance of hav- is largely a matter of keeping things ing those hideous poles removed which on an economical basis. have been there for years and which have been disfiguring the town of Ram- The Speaker: Would the chairman sey. Even if they did a few at a time, let us have the information ir regard they would be doing something. We to the sub-station? are going to try to improve the town of Ramsey and I think the poles should Sir Ralph Stevenson: Ramsey nas be removed after all these years. two generators and the station is now being manned for a longer period. It _Mr E. Moore: In the sheading of is hoped it will be able to help the sup- Garif we wou!r1 be quite happy to have ply to the north in the near future. but the poles if they carried a reasonable it is largely in the hands of the Lord. supply of electricity. The members are under constant pressure about the The Governor: Before I put the ques- inadequacy of the supply and one can tion, I hope it will not be said I am hardly get television reception or cook a meal, and I do think the hon. mem- getting Divine preference, but it is a fact that at my cottage at Maughold ber of the Council should give an ex- a kettle boils in half the time there than planation of the work of the new Ram- it does in Government House in Dou- sey station; is it assisting or boosting the supplies; if it is functioning 24 glas. (Laughter.) hours a day and, if not, how often is it A Member: It may be the size of the used? kettle. Sir Ralph Stevenson: The capital estimates of the Board only cover the The resolution was carried.

Isle of Mn Electricity Board—Capital Estimates of £37,089. TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 11, 1963 1119

ISLE OF MAN WATER BOARD— mated cost. These works are those CAPITAL ESTIMATES OF £96,300 covered by the estimated probable ex- penditure of 2,55.000 shown in column The Governor: Item 22. The Isle of 6. The estimate of £71.000 in column 7 Man Water Board. covers the following works to be carried Mr FL S., Cain: I beg to move the out during 1963-64:— (A) The sum of £5,000 included in last year's estimate resolution standing in my name:— for pumps at Glencrutchery and That Tynwald requests His Excellency in Stuggadhoo. (B) Works specifically consultation with the Finance Board, to give recommended in the engineers' joint consideration in framing the budget to the Capital Estimates of the Water Board as report of September, 1962: Six-inch shown in the Book of Estimates for 1963/64. main TrolIaby to Ballagarey, £5,500; six- inch main Ballawilleykilley to I_ have cut- out a lot of the preamble Marown, £1,900: four-inch main Nab but hon. members will remember that to Ballawilleykilley, £4,000; raw water as recently as last October the Local booster at Glencrutchery filters, £3.000; Government Board asked the two new 15-inch Kerrowdhoo main, £23,000; water engineers to meet and agree a wayleaves, legal expenses, contin- scheme which could be put in hand in gencies etc., on items 1-5. £3,600— time to provide winter employment, for which makes the total for (B), £41,000. the augmentation of the water supply. (C) Other works covered by above This scheme was prepared, covering a report but not specifically estimated:— period of two years, and the report was Six-inch main Ballacraine to Cronk-y- submitted to Tynwald and approved Voddy,. £19,000: pumping station, Glen on October 16th. The first part of the Helen, £2,000: completion of Cronk-y- scheme was bringing the water from Voddy tank, £1.500; wayleaves, legal the Glencrutchery Filter House up to expenses, contingencies, etc., on items the Braaid to have a supply available 6-3, £2,500 — making the total of for the south of the Island, while the £71.000. The item of £3,300 for the second part of the scheme was to bring Cronk-y-Voddy service reservoir is the the water from Kerrowdhoo to the balance of the sum voted for this pur- Glencrutchery Filter Station. Good pose last year but not expended because progress was made up to the beginning of the delay in starting the construc- of January but subsequent bad weather tion. It is hoped to proceed immedi- brought main laying to a standstill and ately with this work. It will be noted it was not possible to achieve a normal that E1.500 has already been included rate of progress again until mid- in the estimates for the roofing and February. It was then apparent that completion of this reservoir for water the whole of the works planned could supply purposes. The labour content not be completed within the current of this work will be £22,000 and the year. It was decided to concentrate on number of men employed 75.000. completing the Douglas/Braaid main and to delay the installation of pump- Members: Seventy-five thousand? ing stations and the construction of the Cronk-y-Voddy tank until the main Mr H. S. Cain: I am sorry-75—and was completed. In the event of emer- before I finish I must express my gency the position could then be appreciation at the way in which the covered by the mobile pumps already in two engineers have got out this scheme the Board's possession. Work on the and are making it work so successfully. main should be completed within the next five weeks and there is every indi- Mr Quayle seconded. cation that in spite a the setback caused by the bad weather, the work Mr Corkhill: Could I ask the chair- should be completed within the esti- man as to when we can expect water

Isle of Man Water Board—Capital Estimates of £96,300. 1120 TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 11, 1963 through to Glen Helen? The water is That Tynwald approves:— a very important thing for the hotel (a) of the erection by the Local Government Board of 48 houses and flats at Janet's there. Corner, Malew, at an estimated cost of £125,000; and Mr H. S. Cain: This will be part of (t) of a sum not exceeding £125,0011 being next winter's work, when it is pro- borrowed by Government under the pro- posed to construct a six-inch main from visions of the Isle of Man Loans Act, Ballacraine to Cronk-y-Voddy. 1958. to enable the Scheme to proceed. The resolution was seconded and was carried. The resolution carried. The Governor: Well, First Deemster, gentlemen of the Council, Mr Speaker, HOUSING AT JANET'S CORNER— gentlemen of the Keys, that concludes the business before the Court. The APPROVAL FOR THE ERECTION OF 48 HOUSES AND FLATS Council will now retire and the House of Keys will remain to transact any The Governor: We now proceed to other business which Mr Speaker has to item 23 on the agenda. gentlemen. I put before it. In concluding this call on the chairman of the Local budget session, I would like to wish you Government Board. all a happy and relaxing Easter. Mr IVIcFee: I beg to move the resolu- The Council retired and the Court tion standing in my name:— rose.

HOUSE OF KEYS

Douglas, Thursday, April 11. 1963.

The Speaker: Gentlemen, the hon. member for Ayre, Mr Radcliffe, has given me notice that he wishes to ask permission to introduce a Bill. Mr Radcliffe: Actually, Mr Speaker, it is to give notice that I intend to ask permission to introduce the Fisheries (No. 2) Bill, 1963. which deals with freshwater fisheries with reference to poachers. The Speaker: In accordance with Standing Order 3, gentlemen, the House will now stand adjourned until Tues- day. April 30th, at 11 a.m.

Housing at Janet's Corner—Approval for the Erection of 48 Houses and Flats.