An Interview with Sarojini Sahoo

International Journal of Advance Science and Technology Vol. 29, No. 10S, (2020), pp. 7791-7796

An Interview with Sarojini Sahoo Dr Shivani Vashist Professor, Department of English Manav Rachna International Institute of Research & Studies Abstract The interview of Sarojini Sahoo was taken as a part of doctoral research work which was undertaken under my supervision. The intention of taking the interview was to know Sarojini Sahoo’s views on Feminism as the research work was focused on short stories written by her from a feminist perspective. Though it was difficult meeting her physically, the interview was taken through electronic media. Her frank and direct answers throw light on her views and her approach towards her characters.

1. What made you choose the form of Short Story writing to express your views? Ans: “I write poems also but I don’t know why it seems that poetry is an incompetent media for me to express myself .I feel comfortable with fiction where I can open myself freely .I often use my poems within the fiction and critiques say my prose are more poetic. My first short story was published in the Sunday Supplement of an Odia newspaper when I was a high school student. My stories had been published in the Jhankar, a prestigious literary journal which only published the scholarly writings from reputed authors, when I was only an undergraduate student. In fact, even my teachers failed to publish there. In my teen age I met Jagadish Mohanty (my husband) as a pen friend. My interactions and study with Jagadish Mohanty, with whom I later fell in love and married, made me more serious about literature, especially fiction”.

2. Would you consider yourself to be a Feminist by choice or Feminist by societal circumstances. Ans: “No, I never accept feminism or read any book on feminism in my girlhood days. But, is it necessary to read any book on feminism to become a feminist for a woman? Isn’t her life more a guide to the way of feminism in any woman’s case? In my book Sensible Sensuality, I have written ,when I was born, my father was not present beside my mom. Finding my self a female baby, my mother had a shock, because my father was expecting a son and my birth might be the reason of her humiliation in future. My mom told me later, she could not sleep the night with fear of facing my father with a girl child. She was praying all the night to God for changing my gender, but God did not pay attention to her pathos cry and hence my Gender was not changed. But my father is a strong headed man and he could not forget his sorrow of not becoming a son’s father. I was brought up as a boy as I was born as a girl beyond to my father’s expectation for a son. This story compelled me to think about feminine mass. After crossing my teen age when I read anthropology and could feel and understand how gender theories approved by these anthropologists stand opposite to my own realization and conviction. Anthropologists often believe that the differences in temperament between men and women were not a function of their biological differences, rather, they resulted from differences in socialisation and the cultural expectations held for each sex. Simone de Beauvoir’s well known saying that ‘Women are made, not born’ supports that theory. But I felt from my girl hood experiences that the theory did not seem to true in my case. As my father had an obsession for a male child, he wanted to see me as a boy and therefore, I was dressed as a boy; my hair was cut like a boy’s; and I used to play boyish games with boys instead of girlish games with girls. In my book, I mentioned my Portuguese friend’s query, where he asked whether this had any impact in my sexuality in later life or not. It is clear that these cross-gender activities did not make any difference in my later life and I grew up normally as a woman. This realization made me more interested in gender studies. But before reading these anthropological philosophies, I started writing stories which are clear paint of women’s life. In 90’s Delhi Doordarshan decided to make a TV profile of mine and Dr. Satti Khanna of Duke University was engaged to shoot my life. Satti Khanna hadn’t read any of my writings and in order to celluloid my life, he did read some of my stories and told me ‘you are the

most endowed feminist writer I have ever read. I think, he is the first reader to point out that comment on me”.

3. How do you think the times have changed over the years for the women in India? Ans: “Yes, times have changed over the years for the women in India, the ratio of women education, participation in every field has increased and women have become more independent to live and lead their life alone in metro city but could really their problems disappear at all? Perhaps no, are they not exploited by their senior authorities in their work place? The ratio of rapes has not increased. Still our society needs a girl who should be a virgin and typically bride type who should serve the family besides her 12 hours office work. That type of mindset still exists in our society. Female foetus killings are still prevailed in Indian society. In religious rituals and customs also females are barred to take part in all worship. In Kerala, females are not allowed to enter in the Ayeppa temples. They are also barred to worship the God. You could find how much huddles have come between “Triple Talaq”.

4. The common thread that binds all your stories is the sorry treatment meted to women by the patriarchal society. What steps, do you think, other than education, can be taken to liberate women from this chaos? Ans: “What I want is to develop equal mutual relationships of caring and support between all genders and I want to focus on strengthening women in areas such as assertiveness, communication, relationships, and self esteem. As a human being, I always argue about equal status for women and I refuse to believe that by denying our sexual selves, women can be equal with men”. “But what I oppose is patriarchal society’s unfortunate decision to grant more liberation for a man than a woman. Our current society uses woman as an object and not as a human being. If a painter paints a nude of a woman, we can appreciate it as a masterpiece. We can enjoy the erotic sculpture showing women’s nude bodies on the temple wall. We can digest all these from the pen and brush of a male artist, but if Kamala Das writes, we feel disturbed thinking that society is now in danger. When Sunil Ganguly writes about his affairs with other ladies, it is cited as a literary boldness, but when Kamala Das expresses her passion, it is considered as perverted thought. For my story Rape, (published in Waiting for Manna) I was criticized for using the word fuck in my story for several years. It was a story of admitting sexual desire of a woman and it was intolerable for a patriarchal society to find a woman speaking about her sexual desires. The story has a central idea whether a woman has no right for sexual desire even if only in her dreams. I believe in women’s body women’s right. Sometimes critics misunderstand me, women body does not mean only passion it’s also concern about the total entity of a woman, what she is, what she wears etc. The female foetus killing, bride burning cases are also concerned with body”.

5. We all know that you are an inspiration to the women of the entire country. How do you see the patriarchal mindset changing over the years? Ans: “In those days time changed a lot, but is patriarchal dominancy disappearing from our society? No not all. Our girls are now getting facilities to study extensively. They are going and settled in other state or abroad for job sake, they are staying even live in relation but still the greed for dowry, expectation bride culture, expectation of son and above all the male dominancy co- inside in patriarchal system”.

6. As we understand, a mother has no favourites. Still, any particular text/ story which is really close to your heart? Ans: ““Misery knows no bound” is very close to my heart. The story actually based on my daughter. I feel, I failed to narrate the pain of a little girl yet”.

7. In one of your very popular stories, Proxy, Suparna, the protagonist, experiences a fleet of emotions, including a subtle acceptance of her husband’s extra-marital affair. What made you finish the story on such a note? Ans: “ Every man has a dark Abode. Sometimes it’s exposed and times hide behind the whole life.This thought reflect in the Proxy”.

8. The narrator in your story Volcano comments how girls were married off very early and how dressing up nicely meant inviting trouble. She also compares and contrasts her life to her elder sister’s to clearly bring home the point that being independent was always the best option. She says for her sister, “I did not want her to earn money. I wanted her to get recognition”. Do you think such a take would have been acceptable to the people of the real society of a small town in interiors of India? Ans: “ It is not necessary to earn money to creating own identity or recognition. If you are a writer or singer even painter, then you can develop skill ideas through these medium. But prime thing is voice, if you would not protest then your identity must be in danger. Usually Indian mentality expects submissive women by calling them SARBENSAHAA in Sanskrit, who can bear all pain and keep silence. You have marked so many talents come from small towns rather urban areas. They know how to protest and how to raise their voice”.

9. Do you find that there is a lack of male writers writing about the rights of women? Ans.“The feminist writers are highly criticized by few veteran (male and female) writers in Odisha now. They say they are humanist not feminist. Always my answer to them, that feminists are more humanist because they plead for50% of human beings of this planet. But I have marked a craze for feminism develops in younger women writers here. Male participation for woman right is moreover zero. They have an idea it’s a fashion or easy way to getting name and fame”. “It is ironic that in India, the premier persons who came forward to claim ‘women’s rights’ were not women but were men. Balaram Das, a sixteenth century poet, very well known inside Odisha but lesser known to out side world, is considered as the premier of feminism. As feminism developed in Western countries around the seventeenth century, it is to be noted that Balaram Das pointed out the male hegemony of patriarchal society in his poems much before it began in the Europe On the other hand, the reputed medieval saint poet of 16th century, Balaram Das, one of the five poet companions revivalists of Vaishnavism , popularly known as Panchasakha, has significant affect on Oriya Literature. His Laksmi Purana provided the other pillar on which subsequent literature was to thrive and was considered as the first manifesto of Women’s Liberation and Feminism in Indian Literature. But it was written to promote a Hindu ritual ‘Vrat/Brat.’ (Vrat or Brat are the Hindu rituals of fasting or Upavas, mainly observed by the women, to please a particular God or Goddesses on a particular day. when devotees refrain themselves from food or water.Every Vrat/Brat has its own ‘puranas’ or legend describe in mythical poem form, which were to be recited at the rituals). The following text describes how Laksmi, being driven away from her in-law’s house, established herself by making a palace and the Goddess then summoned the eight Vetalas and asked them to ransack the kitchen and pantry in the temple and bring everything to her. The story later tells how the two Gods Lord Jagannath and Lord Balaram decided to go out begging. Wearing torn clothes, sacred thread on the shoulder and a broken umbrella in hand, the brothers now looking like Brahmin beggars, went round asking for water to drink. Lakshmi then called Saraswati and asked her to go to every house and ask the householders not to give food and water to Jagannath. So wherever the two gods went, they were taken to be thieves and driven out. At last, the two brothers had to surrender to Goddess Laksmi and agreed that she could live wherever she wanted and the two gods would never again try to forbid her”. “Balaram Das never tried to raise his tone directly on the moral values of patriarchal society. But very tactfully, he raised his voice against the Hindu Patriarchal system. We all know the role of Raja Ram Mohan Roy created the Bramho Samaj, that sought to break the shackles of the caste system, and the fight against

Sati that saved the lives of many women. He also advocated for property rights for women, and fought child marriage and a member of the Royal Asiatic Society and the Royal Geographical Society, Cursetjee saw firsthand the injustice meted to women through his years of educational and professional experience. In 1859, he started the first English school for girls in India in Mumbai, initially at his house, with the staff comprising an English governess and his daughters. This initiative gained support, and Cursetjee moved the school to another premises and named it the Alexandra Native Girls’ English Institution. The school was open to girls from all castes. Cursetjee remained the president of the school up until his death in 1887. The word ‘Native’ was dropped from the name and the school still functions to this day, celebrating its 150th anniversary in 2013”. “Jyotirao Govindrao Phule was an Indian activist and reformer who brought about a drastic change in the lives of women in society. During his time, women belonging to lower castes were not allowed to attend school and receive an education. He vowed to change that, and began by educating his wife. Together, they started their first school for girls, despite being ostracised by their families. He advocated widow remarriage and also started an orphanage to reduce the incidence of female infanticide, which was common among families who had girl children. Behramji Merwanji Malabari, hailing from Vadodra, was an Indian author and reformer who battled for the rights of women and stood firmly against child marriage. He expressed his feelings through his powerful writing on enforced widowhood and child marriage. In 1885, a girl named Rukhmabai was forced to return to her husband or be jailed by a certain Judge Pinhey, but she won the case with Malabari’s help”. “Dr BR Ambedkar, the architect of the Indian constitution is renowned for championing the rights of Dalits and their upliftment in society. Apart from this, he was responsible for the introduction of the Hindu Code Bill - which allowed women the right to file a divorce petition, and the right to inheritance. Despite strong opposition by conservative members of the Parliament, he stood his ground, to allow broadening of the freedom of the individual and equal rights of men and women in society”. “ Fakir Mohan Senapati father of Odia fiction has written Rebati in 1898, is a landmark story of Indian fiction with many extraordinary and advanced qualities in comparison with other stories written at that time in Indian literature. It is the first story, written about middle class life. The stories of that time were mostly based on the royal family. It is also the premier story which dealt with feminism and especially with women’s right for education”. “At the beginning of nineteenth century, a British company started to educate Indians and opened schools for the children. In 1821, the Church Missionary Society of India decided to establish 30 schools for Hindu girls and Miss Mary Anne Cooke was asked to manage them. The first boarding school for girls was founded in Thirunelveli in that year. By 1840, six schools with a total enrollment of 200 Hindu girls were constructed. Until the mid nineteenth century, the Church Missionary Society had an enrollment of 8,000 girls under its banner. In 1871, for the first time, a school for Hindu girls was set-up at Cuttack and even after the school ran for ten years, the number of girls had only increased to a mere 25”. (Source: Utkal Deepika, Vol 16, No 44, Nov 5, 1881). “Fakir Mohan was associated with the first girls’ school of Orissa and after ten years of the school was established, only four Hindu girls were enrolled. Senapati was one of the persons who got the attention of parents and urged them to send their girls to the school in larger numbers. But in his story, the family of Rebati has been ruined and her grandmother believed that this disaster was a result of enforcing girls’ education against tradition. Fakir Mohan was not an idealistic propagandist unlike other writers of his time. He didn’t want to glamorize girls’ education but tried to portray the idea of his contemporary society regarding this education. Rebati was written in 1898, where the protagonist’s father employed a village master for her daughter’s tuition at home. The story was not merely a love story as Rebati never asked for love from her mentor Basu Master. In the story, except a smile, the readers could not access any picturization of love ideas”.

10. What are you working at currently? Ans: “After retirement from my job I keep myself busy in writing features for different news papers and writing a novel and biography too”.

11. Do you think blogging, with your popular blog- Sense and Sensuality- has been the right means for you to take your ideas about sexuality and feminism further ? Ans. “Yes, definitely. It is a very popular blog I have ever marked. Because there are many misconceptions about sexuality. They are often perpetuated by lust and passion. In our culture, women’s bodies, and sex are used as complimentary to each other. Any one’s class or ethnic or geographic identity could be closely tied to his/her sexuality, which is not just an entity in itself. But still, either in west or in east, there is a reluctant outlook towards sexuality and society has always tried to hide it from any open forum. In my opinion, men have failed miserably when it comes to differentiating between the words sex and sensuality. Our view of what is sexy has become so askew that many women and men don't even know what their own desires are anymore. With most contemporary portrayals of sexuality being outright promiscuity and tactless drunken debauchery, it's not surprising that women and men have lost sight of the joys and need for sensuality. Between this severely misguided view of human sexuality and the pressures of our everyday lives, the sex lives of masculine world have been stunted”. “There is a lack of appreciation for tenderness running rampant through our views and ideas about sex. Pornography has become boring and in my opinion, it might have much to do with this unrealistic and unromanticized version of physical pleasure. Women seem to think that a quick, rough and raunchy screw is the definition of "sexy" for men. Men seem to think that a sweaty, all night, creatively impressive, position-fest is the answer. But I think, sensuality is the smell of bliss that permeates the sex in its warm embrace as you offer up words of honesty that come bubbling forth from the core of your being. It’s that intimacy when you feel that subtle merging of body and mind- that I crave more than anything. It is very important to understand that this social movement centers on the notion that sexual freedom is an essential ingredient of women's freedom. I believe in sexual self-determination of women where each woman has the right to determine who she will be intimate with. I am strongly against the system where without being judged for her choices, a woman is forced to be involved with her partner. According to my survey, between 60 to 70 percent of married women of India don’t know what an orgasm is in their whole life. Only they are used by their husbands and become a mother of children. Our Shastras also support this milieu as “Putrathe Kriyate Bharya” (means: wife is meant for a son)”. “I stand just as strongly for a woman’s right not to have sex (of any kind) if she doesn’t want to and I believe that women who make that decision deserve support and protection as well. I refuse to be a victim of some imaginary universal male sexual sadism. As a human being, I always argue about equal status for women and I refuse to believe that by denying our sexual selves, women can be equal with men”. “But what I oppose is patriarchal society’s unfortunate decision to grant more liberation for a man than a woman. Our current society uses woman as an object and not as a human being. If a painter paints a nude of a woman, we can appreciate it as a masterpiece. We can enjoy the erotic sculpture showing women’s nude bodies on the temple wall. We can digest all these from the pen and brush of a male artist, but if Kamala Das writes, we feel disturbed thinking that society is now in danger,it is her passion and it considered as ‘perverted thought”.

12. Which language do you enjoy writing more in-Oriya or English? Ans: “I feel free to write my creative works in Odia and my critical appraisals in English”.

13. Which writers have had the most major influence on your life? Ans: “In writing, I have been influenced by many Western writers. How could I mention just one name? He may be Dostovosky; he may be Kafka; he may be Joyce; and he may be Proust. But are they my hero. I don’t think of anyone as an idol. If I consider anyone an idol, it would be Jagadish Mohanty, my husband, who was a veteran Indian writer of Odia Literature and whom I consider to be my friend and philosopher and guide”.

14. Your husband, Mr. Jagdish was also a renowned writer. What kind of bond/ exchanges do you usually have with sir- as you seem to be thorough feminist ? Ans: “In India most of the female writers either quit writing or make themselves more adjustable to male dominated values, after their marriage. You find a shyness in their voice while relating the truth and exposing their inner self. Even their weaknesses or love relations are also not expressed clearly in fear of social scandal of their character. A typical womanish shyness prevents them to write their actual feelings towards sex and love. This is not only due to any restriction imposed by their family, but many time we find that an idea of being a good girl pursues them to hide their own feelings and experiences”. Different than conventional women writers, she says, “I have been referred, as a frank- speaking writer in India and my husband has never raised any complaints for that. He was my lover before my marriage and I was using to write my feelings truly at that time and never either my father or my lover argued with me for painting these feelings. After my marriage, in one of my famous story Rape I painted his male dominated characters, but he did not bar me to write this .As a writer, he has always remained by my side whenever any controversy arises for my writings. Our relation is not like a typical married couple of India”.

15. What advice would you like to share with the young feminist writers of today? Ans: “Who am I to give advice? The younger generations are quite smart to express their views”.