Tuesday Volume 594 24 March 2015 No. 131

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 24 March 2015

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2015 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 1271 24 MARCH 2015 1272

that this coalition Government have finally been able to House of Commons set Greater Manchester, Cheadle and other parts of the country free from excessive Whitehall control is a great Tuesday 24 March 2015 achievement that has been accompanied by a rebalancing of the economy. Sixty per cent. of the net growth in jobs has taken place outside London and the south-east. The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock That contrasts very favourably with Labour’s record.

Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Is PRAYERS the Deputy Prime Minister actually going to tell me, or the people in Yorkshire where I represent the town of [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Huddersfield, that this late conversion to the northern powerhouse and all this talk is anything more than pie in the sky? The Government should have been doing BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS something about the northern regions in the past five years. TRANSPORT FOR LONDON BILL [LORDS] Further consideration of Bill, as amended, opposed and The Deputy Prime Minister: What an absurd thing to deferred (Standing Order No. 20). say for a member of a party whose Government presided over a decline in manufacturing that was three times faster than under Margaret Thatcher, and who saw the north-south divide open ever wider during the 13 years Oral Answers to Questions of the Labour Administration. We have not just started this in the later stage of this Parliament; we have introduced city deals and local growth deals, we have devolved more funding, and we have devolved control over business DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER rates—something never, ever undertaken by Labour.

The Deputy Prime Minister was asked— Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): Health devolution will allow decision makers to prioritise health Northern Futures Project inequalities in Manchester, but does my right hon. Friend agree that health professionals in the NHS need 1. Mark Hunter (Cheadle) (LD): What progress to be involved in the detailed discussions to make sure he has made on the Northern Futures project; and if that we get the best deal for patients in our local NHS? he will make a statement. [908252] The Deputy Prime Minister: Yes, of course. Any The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg): Before I change in something as complex and important as the turn to my answer, I am sure that I speak on behalf of NHS in any part of the country needs to be done with the whole House in saying how shocked I am to have the fullest possible participation of the health professionals heard about the very serious air accident that appears who will be delivering that change. I regularly encounter—I to have happened in the Alps in the last couple of hours, am sure that my hon. Friend has found the same—health with the reported very large loss of life. I am sure that professionals who complain about the straitjacket of the thoughts and prayers of everybody in all parts of decision making from Whitehall and who will welcome the House are with the families and friends of those the idea that more decisions can be taken locally to suit who were on board. the health needs of local communities. Northern Futures has been a great success. It has helped us to engage thousands of people across the Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op): country in a debate about how we rebalance the economy First, may I echo the Deputy Prime Minister’s words and has helped to generate the political consensus needed about the tragic air crash in the Alps? to tackle the over-centralisation of power in Whitehall. Over the past five years, average cuts to local authorities Specifically, it paved the way for more than £7 billion of have been £80 per person, but in the Deputy Prime much needed road and rail investment announced in the Minister’s city of Sheffield the figure is almost three autumn statement and for a set of radical decentralisation times higher, and in my city of Liverpool it is almost deals with Manchester, Sheffield and Leeds. five times higher. Will he take this final opportunity at the Dispatch Box to admit to the House that the Mark Hunter: I thank my right hon. Friend for that Conservative Government whom he has supported for answer. Northern Futures is a major part of the coalition five years is no friend of the north? Government’s efforts to rebalance the economy after decades of over-investment in and focus on London The Deputy Prime Minister: I know that the hon. and the south-east. Constituencies such as Cheadle, Gentleman’s party is in perpetual denial about the where unemployment is now just 1.4%, are key beneficiaries. economic mess it bequeathed this Government. The Does he agree that this will be one of this Administration’s problem is that, because of mismanagement on Labour’s greatest legacies? watch, the economy blew up, the banks, which it was sucking up to, held a gun to our heads, and 6% was The Deputy Prime Minister: Yes, I strongly agree with wiped off the value of our national economy, which my hon. Friend. After such a long period of over- took £2,400 off every household in this country. That is centralisation of decision making in Whitehall, the fact what the Labour party did. We have had to pick up the 1273 Oral Answers24 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 1274 pieces. Of course, given that local public spending represents Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): Devolution about a quarter of the total, savings need to be made of power and responsibility to Wales required an Act of locally as well as nationally, but that is a direct consequence Parliament and a referendum of the people, yet Manchester of Labour’s mismanagement of the national economy. and elsewhere are seeing ad hoc devolution that heralds the break up of the NHS. Is it not time to do this Devolution: England properly, rather than play a political game in the run-up to an election? 2. Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): What progress he has made on further devolution in England. [908253] Greg Clark: I am very surprised that the hon. Gentleman seems to be against the devolution that has been welcomed 5. Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): What progress he right across the country and that has led to the leaders of Cardiff approaching the Government to request a has made on further devolution in England. [908256] city deal. I will visit Cardiff later this week to begin The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Greg Clark): negotiations. They will be very concerned to hear that This Government have a proud record of devolving the hon. Gentleman is against it. power from central Government to the cities, towns and counties of this country: we passed the Localism Act Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): The population of 2011; we have initiated and negotiated 28 city deals; we Essex is more than double that of Cornwall, and the are devolving at least £12 billion of central resources to population of the six counties of the east of England is local places through growth deals; and, with the Greater considerably greater than that of Wales, so may we have Manchester agreement, and agreements with other cities devolution to the powerhouse of the six counties of the to follow, there is now unstoppable momentum to continue east of England? that success. Greg Clark: Through the Government’s programme over the past few years, we have devolved—and we will Stuart Andrew: I am grateful for that answer. Does complete the devolution of—£12 billion of resources my right hon. Friend agree that the constitutional reform that were previously administered by Ministers and priority should be to ensure a fair and balanced devolution officials in Whitehall to Essex and other great counties. settlement for every part of the UK and to introduce That is work in progress, but I agree with my hon. English votes for English laws? Friend that we can and should go further.

Greg Clark: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) is why the Leader of the House has made it very clear (SNP): Can the Minister see the regions or cities of that the return of a Conservative Government will England one day having more devolution than Scotland correct that injustice and there will indeed be English currently has? votes for English laws. Greg Clark: The progress we have made in England Henry Smith: As well as English votes for English has been significant. As the hon. Gentleman knows, we laws and, indeed, devolution to our great cities, can my have also concluded a city deal with Glasgow. Some of right hon. Friend assure me that a future Conservative the reflections I have heard from Scotland state that the Government will devolve more authority on service Scottish Government have been a rather centralising delivery to the great counties of England, which have a Government and that they will look to the model of strong track record of democratic delivery? I welcome decentralisation that we have pursued in England to try the growth deal from which west Sussex has benefited. to save them from that over-centralisation. Greg Clark: Indeed I will. My hon. Friend was a Individual Electoral Registration distinguished leader of one such county. It is clear that the success of the city deals has introduced a model that 3. Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): What steps other capable authorities can take up. I encourage all he has taken to uphold the integrity of voting in our county leaders to prepare their plans to take powers introducing individual electoral registration. [908254] from central Government and to be in charge of those budgets that were previously tied up in Whitehall. The Minister for the Constitution (Mr Sam Gyimah): Increasing the integrity of the electoral process is one of Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): the fundamental reasons behind the introduction of The devolution proposals for Greater Manchester have individual electoral registration. Unlike the previous been widely welcomed, but the proposal to appoint an system, under which the head of the household registered interim mayor with no executive powers is less welcome. people, people now have to register and have their entry Does the Minister agree that it should be a priority to verified against Government and local authority records. arrange for primary legislation so that Greater Manchester That is one way in which we are ensuring the integrity of can have an elected mayor? the register. Furthermore, we have ensured that anyone wishing to vote by post or by proxy at the elections on Greg Clark: I do think there should be an elected 7 May must have been verified through IER. That mayor for Manchester—that is exactly what has been safeguards the integrity not only of the register but of agreed with every one of the Greater Manchester the ballot. authorities. One of the consequences of the agreement with Greater Manchester is that it will have a directly Richard Graham: There are almost 4,000 so-called elected mayor who will be a hugely important national red voters—I hope the colour is not symbolic—who and international figure, as befits that great city. were already registered in Gloucester before IER was 1275 Oral Answers24 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 1276 introduced. They cannot vote by postal vote, but if they the Ballot, Operation Black Vote, the Daily Mirror, exist, they are entitled to vote in person. What steps has trade unions, Operation Disabled Vote, faith groups, my hon. Friend’s Department taken to ensure that the Labour party and many others. Will the Minister people do not impersonate others in polling stations? join me in thanking and commending all those working hard to ensure that all those entitled to vote are registered Mr Gyimah: I thank my hon. Friend for a very good to vote? question. On the numbers of people, the number of voters carried forward from the last annual canvass who Mr Gyimah: I will take no lessons from the right hon. have lost their postal vote is actually very small—it is Gentleman. The Labour party left office with 7.5 million about 3% in total—and the remainder have been confirmed people missing from the register. IER was Labour’s against Government records. This is in the context of policy, and this Government have taken it forward. Of an important safeguard that was introduced during the course the Government have worked with a whole series transition to IER, ensuring that no one registered to of groups, including private organisations such as Facebook, vote at the last annual canvass will lose their vote in to promote registration. Indeed, national voter registration May.I would add, however, that any attempt to impersonate day saw 166,000 people register to vote. Operation someone at a polling station is a criminal offence. Black Vote has received funding from this Government to get people on the register. You left the register with Mr Speaker: Order. We are immensely grateful to the 7.5 million people missing; we are putting it right. Minister. Mr Speaker: Order. I have done no such thing. Mr Gyimah: Further action that we have taken is £500,000— Devolution: South-West

Mr Speaker: Order. We are extraordinarily obliged to 4. Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): What plans he has the hon. Gentleman. I was going to thank him for the to devolve powers to Cornwall. [908255] notable comprehensiveness of his response, which is a polite way of exhorting him to resume his seat. The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg): In January this year, I announced that we will devolve to Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Will the Cornwall an extra £11.3 million from the local growth Minister tell the House what he believes has been the fund, bringing the total investment devolved to Cornwall effectiveness of individual and continuous registration to £60.2 million. I have made it clear that I would like to in Northern Ireland? Does he accept the importance go much further and pass legislation in the next Parliament and value of continuing the annual household canvass to allow the Cornish people to have a Cornish assembly to achieve robust electoral registration? with power over housing, health care and transport, if that is what the people of Cornwall want. Mr Gyimah: We have learned the lessons from Northern Ireland. One of the things we have preserved in the Andrew George: I hope that my right hon. Friend transition to IER is indeed the annual canvass. That is does not think that I am damning him with faint praise also why we have carried over people from the last when I say that he is the best party leader by far. He will annual canvass to ensure that no one who was registered therefore recognise that Cornwall will benefit a great to vote as at January 2014 will lose their right to vote deal from the proposed devolution-enabling Act. Does come 7 May. he agree that under those proposals Cornwall and places like it could redesign their planning and housing systems Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Voting integrity to put local need above speculators’ greed and the is obviously important. There are real concerns that increase in second homes? many students, particularly first-year students, will not get on the register. I have been trying to encourage them The Deputy Prime Minister: As my hon. Friend rightly to register and to vote. What has the Minister done to suggests, we should push ahead with devolution and make sure that they have a chance to vote? decentralisation across the United Kingdom in the next Parliament, but not to a fixed blueprint. Some areas Mr Gyimah: Ensuring that everyone who is eligible to may want to go further and faster than others. If, in vote is on the register and can exercise that right has Cornwall, it is felt that a Cornish assembly, born out of been a priority of the Government throughout the the existing county council—it would not be yet another transition to IER. We have made £500,000 available to talking shop for politicians, and could even cut the the National Union of Students to run a programme to number of politicians if it wished to—should have register students to vote. We are also working with powers over planning, such as those that he suggests, I universities so that they can provide data to local authorities, would hope that we would empower it in that way. which can then chase up students not on the register to get them on to the register. 13. [908264] Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con): The Plymouth and south-west Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): Despite the warm words peninsula city deal, which was announced recently along from the Minister, at the end of this Parliament there with the enterprise zone, will ensure that there is significant will be many millions who are entitled to vote but investment in Devon and Cornwall and that there are missing from the electoral register. The Government’s new jobs. Does my right hon. Friend share my concern cack-handed and rushed move to individual electoral that if, by some misfortune, the Labour party got into registration has made things worse. Fortunately, others power, the focus would no longer be on Devon and are trying to repair the damage—Hope not Hate, Bite Cornwall but elsewhere? 1277 Oral Answers24 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 1278

The Deputy Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is right continuity of treatment, yet we have found out that that to say that the Labour party has never sought to look will not be delivered by the Department of Health. after the interests of the south-west, nor the interests of Katy Brown, the mother of my six-year-old constituent the national economy more broadly. Without a stronger Sam Brown, has said that that is at best “misleading, at economy, it is impossible to create a fairer society in worst underhand”. This situation is disgraceful. We which power is distributed to all parts of the United need to fund those drugs now on an interim basis. Will Kingdom, including the south-west. my right hon. Friend speak to the Prime Minister and get it sorted this week? Mr Speaker: Last but not least, I call Debbie Abrahams. Constitutional and Political Reform The Deputy Prime Minister: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the way he has sought to represent his 6. Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) constituent Sam Brown, and all the other children and (Lab): What steps he is taking to ensure that residents their families who are—quite understandably—concerned of Oldham East and Saddleworth constituency benefit about the continued provision of these drugs. As he from the Government’s constitutional and political heard from the Prime Minister when he raised the reform proposals. [908257] matter at Prime Minister’s questions two weeks ago, the understanding is that NHS England is conducting a The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Greg Clark): review that will conclude by the end of next month. In The residents of the hon. Lady’s constituency will benefit the meantime, drug companies will continue with the from the biggest devolution of powers from central provision of these drugs until the end of May, so that Government to local government for decades. The Greater continuity is assured. Given my hon. Friend’s concerns, Manchester city deal and the growth deal agreement I will undertake to look urgently at the matter again. will put the transport budget in the hands of the people of Manchester; see the building of 15,000 extra homes Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab): over the next 10 years; devolve the skills budget, securing In an interview last week the Deputy Prime Minister more and better training; allow 100% of business rate pronounced that revenue to be retained locally; and bring together £6 billion of health and social care budgets to join up services. “the way in which politics works is bust” That is all part of this Government’s northern powerhouse and that “Westminster is a joke”. When he said that, initiative. was he referring to himself?

Debbie Abrahams: More than 112,000 people were The Deputy Prime Minister: I wonder what answer I made homeless in 2013, which was an increase of 26% on should give to that. No, of course not. 2010. That can be directly attributed to the Government’s welfare policies, including their new sanctions regime, Ms Harman: He went on in that interview to say that and to the lack of affordable housing. My office has he is now “more anti-establishment” than he was five been inundated with homelessness cases over the past years ago. Were those the same five years in which he few months. How does the Minister think the increase took the ministerial car, the ministerial salary and the in homelessness will affect voter registration? Tory Whip? Were they the same five years in which he Greg Clark: The hon. Lady’s initial question was trebled tuition fees, imposed the bedroom tax, put up about how the Government’s policies on devolution VAT and cut taxes for millionaires? However he describes and constitutional reform have benefited her constituents himself, the only thing people in this country will remember and I set that out in terms. I would have thought that him for is giving a whole new meaning to the phrase, she would want to recognise that, as did the hon. “Yes, Prime Minister.” Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer). The front page of the Manchester Evening News put it The Deputy Prime Minister: I cannot blame the right in this way: “We’re All Winners!” Part of the gain for hon. and learned Lady; she certainly finished in the Manchester is that local people can make more of the style to which we have all been accustomed for the last local decisions, including those on housing, as I mentioned five years by reading out pre-rehearsed questions. I in my previous answer. think that the era of single-party government in this country is over. I know she does not like that idea and Topical Questions that the establishment parties—those Members sitting both behind me and in front of me—do not like it T1. [908267] Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): either, but I think it is over. This coalition Government If he will make a statement on his departmental have, in very difficult circumstances, presided over what responsibilities. is now the fastest growing economy in the developed The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg): As world, with more people in work than ever before, and Deputy Prime Minister, I support the Prime Minister more women in work than ever before, after the absolute on the full range of Government policy initiatives. I economic mess she bequeathed us. That is quite an take special responsibility for the Government’s programme achievement. of political and constitutional reform. T5. [908271] David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): I welcome Greg Mulholland: I thank my right hon. Friend for the focus that growth deals are giving to investment that answer. I urge him to intervene in the campaign to priorities in north-east Cheshire and across the country. get the drugs that are needed for those with Morquio What steps are being taken to help boost and support syndrome, Duchenne muscular dystrophy and tuberous the life sciences corridor in Cheshire and across Manchester, sclerosis. The Prime Minister said that there should be and to help boost jobs in Macclesfield as well? 1279 Oral Answers24 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 1280

The Deputy Prime Minister: I know that the Minister the Deputy Prime Minister agree that an elected senate for Universities, Science and Cities was recently at Alderley of the nations and regions would be a good way to give Park, and I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s personal the regions of England a stronger say in how the contribution to the Alderley Park taskforce. I am pleased country is run? that through the local growth deals Cheshire and Greater Manchester secured an allocation from the Government The Deputy Prime Minister: Yes, that would be an of £20 million towards their joint £4 million LEP life excellent idea. I only wish the hon. Gentleman’s party science investment fund. More broadly, we must build had actually abided by his wisdom when we had the on strengths in the health care sector in the north of chance to vote for an elected second Chamber. For England. That is why in last week’s Budget £20 million specious procedural reasons, the Labour party turned was announced for the “health north” initiative, which its back on its long-held traditional view in favour of will enable better care for patients and promote medical democracy in the second Chamber. I agree that one of innovation in the north of England. the virtues of an elected second Chamber is precisely that it would provide an accurate reflection of the T2. [908268] Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): regions and nations of the United Kingdom at the Through local growth deals and local enterprise other end of the building. partnerships the Government claim to be giving local communities greater control over spending priorities T7. [908274] Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): with one hand, yet they savagely make cuts with the Simon Stevens, the chief executive of NHS England, other. That means a real failure to deliver projects in has said that by 2020 the NHS will need an extra places such as West Lancashire that are on the edges of £8 billion a year at the very minimum to provide the our cities, and they are missing much of the investment services we all need. Does my right hon. Friend agree that could be made. In the final stages of this that it is our duty as politicians to find that funding, Government, will the Minister acknowledge that that and that any party going into this election saying that it has not been fair to all our communities? will provide less than that is, no matter how it spins it, actually saying that it will underfund the NHS? The Deputy Prime Minister: This is the second time the issue has been raised, and it would be so much easier The Deputy Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a to take seriously the hon. Lady’s concern about savings very important point. Simon Stevens’s analysis of the that have been asked of local government were it not for financial needs of the NHS specified that by the end of the fact that the shadow Chancellor has said that hundreds the next Parliament there would be an £8 billion funding of millions of pounds would be asked of local government gap. That is not some sort of easy throwaway figure; it in further cuts if the Labour party won the next election. was identified on the basis of certain assumptions about Which is it? Does the Labour party believe that further considerable continued savings in the NHS. The Liberal savings need to be made from local government, or not? Democrats have specified how we would find that £8 billion. Officially it says that those savings will need to be made, It is now for other parties in the House to come clean on even in the next Parliament as we continue to balance how they would find the money identified by Simon the books, yet in this House the hon. Lady and her Stevens. colleagues somehow think that no savings are required whatsoever. I am afraid savings will continue to be T4. [908270] Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): required until we have finished balancing the books and The Deputy Prime Minister and I have not always seen balancing them fairly. eye to eye, but as it is his last appearance in the Chamber I will go easy on this occasion. He failed to T6. [908273] Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Is the mention, when he answered Question 1, that Liverpool Deputy Prime Minister aware of representations that is a part of the northern powerhouse. What guarantees there should be a tax on family homes in London and can he give that my city will have a seat front and centre the south-east to pay for nurses in Scotland? Does he at the top table of the northern powerhouse? agree that we need to have a fair Union and a strong Government, not a weak Government dancing to the The Deputy Prime Minister: I very much hope it is tune of, and held to ransom by, the Scottish National not the last time the hon. Gentleman and I interact party? across the Floor of the House of Commons—and in this configuration as well. Liverpool already has a seat The Deputy Prime Minister: I certainly agree that in at the top table of the Northern Futures and northern the same way as it would be very ill-advised to put the powerhouse initiatives. The significant rail and road UK Independence party in charge of Europe, it would transport projects, which were confirmed just last week, be very ill-advised to put the SNP in charge of a had Liverpool very much at their heart. They will lead country it wishes to pull apart. to significantly improved road and rail connections On property taxation, as the hon. Gentleman knows from Liverpool to the rest of the north-west and to the we have a property tax system, the council tax, which rest of the country. The good thing is that those proposals rather eccentrically ends at a certain level. My party were developed on a cross-party basis—of all parties—and therefore believes it is logical to extend the principle of in a consensus of both national Government and local banded taxation for properties higher up the value government, including in Liverpool. chain, both here in the south-east and elsewhere. T10. [908277] Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): T3. [908269] Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab): As someone who was initially sceptical about the Given the overwhelming dominance of London and longevity of the coalition Government, I am very the south-east in the unelected second Chamber, does proud of our achievements and very pleased with our 1281 Oral Answers24 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 1282 successes. Consequently, I would award the current from the EU, because we think it is in our overwhelming Government nine marks out of 10. How many marks national interest to remain part of it. I would say this, out of 10 would the Deputy Prime Minister rate the however: political and diplomatic strength is directly current Government? related to economic strength, and, in my view, if we stay the course and finish the job—and finish it fairly—of The Deputy Prime Minister: I will leave the marking fixing the finances and continuing to rewire the British and the scores to other people. I look to hearing the economy, within a generation it could be the largest and scores that will no doubt be delivered by other, more most potent economy in Europe, which will deliver critical voices shortly. I agree with my hon. Friend that considerable clout to future generations. the durability of the coalition Government was not widely predicted when we were formed. I remember, T12. [908279] Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): Given when the coalition started, reading almost daily portentous that London’s economy is greater than Scotland’s and predictions that the coalition Government would not Wales’s combined, as we devolve power to Scotland and survive. We have survived for half a decade and we have Wales and the northern powerhouse, what plans does done so in the national interest. my right hon. Friend have for making sure that devolution flows to London as well? T8. [908275] Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): The Deputy Prime Minister promised in the coalition agreement The Deputy Prime Minister: I agree that the process to set a limit on the number of special advisers. There of devolution and decentralisation not only to the were 71 under Labour. There are 107 now, including different nations of the UK but to the different parts of 20 in his office, at a cost of £1,200,000. Does he believe England is an ongoing process that should benefit all in leading by exhortation rather than example? parts of the country, including London. Just last week, announcements were made of the further devolution of The Deputy Prime Minister: We have been more open powers to the London Mayor’s office, in addition to the and transparent about the employment of special advisers considerable powers he already possesses. That could be than any previous Government, and I have never hidden built upon in the future. the fact that in a coalition Government of two parties, clearly both parties will wish to employ special advisers Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): The Deputy in order to facilitate the mechanics and workings of Prime Minister’s proposals for the alternative vote system government. were roundly defeated in a referendum. Will he tell the voters whether he is now prepared to take no for an Mr Speaker: I call Mr Richard Graham. [Interruption.] answer? Get in there, Mr Graham; your moment is now. The Deputy Prime Minister: I would like the hon. T11. [908278] Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): May Lady to confirm—perhaps by raising a hand—which I thank the Deputy Prime Minister’s office warmly for party had AV as its manifesto commitment in the last all its hard work in ensuring that growth deals for election. It was not the Liberal Democrats; it was not Gloucester and Gloucestershire have been delivered the Conservatives—oh, it was the Labour party’s policy. over the past five years, and may I exhort him to do We put to the British people her party’s own policy, and more of the same in the next Parliament? she now wants me to disown it. Honestly, of all the topsy-turvy accusations I have had levelled at me, that The Deputy Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend. really takes the biscuit. I agree that the growth deals have set an important precedent in handing more power, money and decision- T13. [908280] Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): making authority to local communities, and I hope it For the last five years, I have tried to irritate the Deputy sets a trend that will not be reversed in the next Parliament. Prime Minister by asking him questions exposing Liberal Democrat failures, and he has always answered with Mr Speaker: It is no surprise that the previous career good grace and good humour—although never the of the hon. Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) question I asked, of course—and I think that history was as a Foreign Office diplomat. He is able to react to will look on him as having been courageous in bringing any situation, even when he is busily consulting his his party into a national Government at a time of crisis. iPhone. We are deeply obliged to him. He should take great credit for that. My final question to the Deputy Prime Minister is T9. [908276] Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/ simple: will he confirm whether he intends to serve Co-op): I notice that the Deputy Prime Minister is another full term as Deputy Prime Minister? responsible for building strategic relations with Europe. Given how weak our country is in Europe and NATO The Deputy Prime Minister: I have enjoyed answering—or and how so many people compare this Prime Minister in the hon. Gentleman’s view, not answering—his questions with Neville Chamberlain, is he proud of the job he has on many occasions and perhaps look forward to doing done promoting Britain in Europe? so again in the future. I would happily settle for two terms as Prime Minister. The Deputy Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman gets very worked up. It is no secret that there are Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): Because differences of opinion in this coalition Government on the Prime Minister has listed a number of people who some of the big long-term issues concerning Britain’s might want his job and because a leadership contest future in the EU. My party will never argue for withdrawal might come much sooner than he wishes, would the 1283 Oral Answers24 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 1284

Deputy Prime Minister like to indicate those of his the local enterprise partnership. It would be much better colleagues who are likely to wish to replace him? One if we could work on a cross-party basis to welcome rather obvious candidate is not present at the moment. than denigrate those steps towards further devolution.

The Deputy Prime Minister: Er, no. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Only days ago, the Government appointed a Conservative Member of T14. [908281] Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): I warmly Parliament to the £45,000 a year job as chair of the welcome the Government’s announcement on additional National Heritage Memorial Fund. Today we learn that funding for childhood and adolescent mental health another Conservative MP is about to be appointed to services. Will my right hon. Friend reassure me that we another office of profit under the Crown. Is this not a will never again see children and adolescents being held flagrant example of jobs for the boys, and will the in police cells because there are insufficient in-patient anti-establishment bit that is left in the Deputy Prime beds? We need more tier 3 and tier 4 facilities for young Minister condemn such appointments? people. The Deputy Prime Minister: I am not entirely sure which specific instances the hon. Gentleman alludes to, The Deputy Prime Minister: I strongly agree. It is but everybody remembers the explosion in quangocracy very good indeed that something close to a cross-party under the Labour Government when legions of placemen consensus has emerged over the last few years in favour and women were dotted around the country by the of dealing with generations of discrimination—and it is Labour party. In fact, many of them are still in post. discrimination—against mental health in the NHS and, within that, an almost institutionalised form of cruelty Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): The Government have through which very vulnerable children and adolescents devolved an awful lot of funding down to Labour-controlled with serious mental health conditions have not been west Yorkshire councils for their transport priorities. treated and cared for. This cannot be reversed and What can be done to make sure that we get some true corrected overnight, but we can make a start. We have devolution, so that the money can flow down to places done that, and last week’s announcement in the Budget such as Shipley for the much-need Shipley eastern bypass, of a £1.25 billion investment in children and young and so that the money is not just kept by these Labour adult mental health services will have a transformative councils for pet projects in Labour heartlands? effect on the tens of thousands of children who will now be better treated than they have been for a long The Deputy Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman time. makes a fair point. Every time we enter into local growth deals, particularly those that are centred on big Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ metropolitan authorities and big urban areas, there is Co-op): My constituents, I am happy to say, voted for legitimate concern—which was reflected in his question— AV in the recent referendum, but they were not among about the possibility that some outlying or linked rural the majority. Does the Deputy Prime Minister agree communities will not get a slice of the pie. Growth deals that with a five-party system at the UK level—and even should be constructed in a way that allows both rural more throughout the nations and regions of the UK—we and urban areas to be included at every stage. need to look again at the electoral system and that this should be a priority for a constitutional convention hopefully set up under a Labour Government? ATTORNEY-GENERAL

The Deputy Prime Minister: One should not expect to The Attorney-General was asked— ask a Liberal Democrat about electoral reform and fail to get a hearty answer—well, perhaps not a hearty Stalking: Prosecutions answer, but the hon. Gentleman knows what I mean. The electoral system we have is woefully unrepresentative 1. Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): What steps of the way people vote. As he rightly suggests, it is the Crown Prosecution Service has taken in the last two becoming ever more unrepresentative as the old duopoly years to ensure that prosecutors are able to prosecute of politics gives way to something much more fluid and stalking and harassment cases more effectively. [908283] plural. Our electoral system—and, indeed, the way in which we conduct our business here—is stuck firmly in The Solicitor-General (Mr Robert Buckland): The the past. It is anachronistic; it will have to change; in my Crown Prosecution Service has taken a number of steps view, it will change one day. recently to ensure that that can happen. A joint police and CPS protocol on stalking was launched in September last year, and CPS legal guidance was revised to reflect Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD): Is the Deputy that development. In addition, prosecutors have been Prime Minister as disappointed as I am that the given training on the new stalking offences. groundbreaking devolution deal announced for West Yorkshire received a less than generous response from Caroline Dinenage: Can my hon. and learned Friend certain West Yorkshire council leaders? confirm that stalking and harassment online is taken as seriously as other forms of such behaviour? The Deputy Prime Minister: I agree. I was struck by the rather churlish and sour note coming from a number The Solicitor-General: Yes, I can confirm that. Recent of Labour leaders in West Yorkshire about a deal that changes in the law that were introduced by the Criminal amounts to a very significant transfer of power, money Justice and Courts Act 2015 will make it easier to and responsibility to Leeds and the west Yorkshire area. prosecute those serious cases by extending the time It was warmly welcomed by Roger Marsh, the chair of limits on summary-only communications offences, and 1285 Oral Answers24 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 1286 by allowing cases covered by section 1 of the Malicious The Attorney-General: The hon. Lady is right to ask Communications Act 1988 to be dealt with in the that question. We do keep such matters under review, Crown court. and as she will appreciate, a large part of the process involves ensuring that prosecutors are properly trained Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): I am and encouraged to do what the guidelines say they pleased that this question has been asked, but I am should do. We will ensure that they receive that ongoing rather concerned about the lumping together of general training and updating, but I think that the signs are harassment and stalking. The Solicitor-General knows encouraging. I think that we are doing more of the full well that stalking is a distinct offence and should be things that we need to do to ensure that child witnesses, treated accordingly. in particular, are accommodated properly in the court system, so that they can give the best evidence that they The Solicitor-General: The right hon. Gentleman is areabletogive. right to raise that issue. I pay tribute to him, because this is probably the last occasion on which he will be Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): In this able to raise such matters here. I am sure that he will very difficult field, does the Attorney-General recognise continue to campaign in whatever capacity his party that the Crown Prosecution Service must learn some allows him to, and I wish him well. lessons from its mistakes, but also that its independent ability to prosecute without fear or favour must not be In the year to last December, 818 stalking offences called into question? had been brought to prosecution. We now need to calculate the proportion of successful prosecutions, and The Attorney-General: I agree entirely with my right I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that more work will hon. Friend. It is right that, where mistakes are made, be done through extrapolation from those figures. they should be learned from, but of course, as he will appreciate, it does not follow that cases that result in an Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): The acquittal should never have been brought as prosecutions Crown Prosecution Service, which, after all, is a demand-led in the first place. That is not the way the system works; organisation, has experienced a 28% cut in its funding it is important to make that point. It is also right, as he since 2010, which equates to £200 million a year. Does has heard me say before, that regardless of what someone the Solicitor-General think that that is helping or hindering does for a living or their position in society, if a prosecution the prosecution of stalking and harassment cases? is appropriate, according to the evidence and the tests that are applied, it should be brought. The Solicitor-General: As I said a moment ago, had it not been for the Government’s changes in the law, we Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Does would not be bringing all those extra cases to court. The the Minister believe that it would be better for the CPS CPS is performing well against 11 of its 12 key performance to have clear guidelines? Should not statutory rape, measures, and is rising to the challenge. Conviction which ends at 12 at the moment, be extended to a higher rates are broadly the same as they were five years ago, age, or should we even consider raising the age of and I think that that should be met with encouragement consent to 17? rather than despair. The Attorney-General: The hon. Gentleman asks some Child Sexual Abuse interesting questions to which, fortunately, it is not for me to determine the answers, but I am sure that he will appreciate that it is important that wherever the boundaries 2. Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): What are set, the CPS prosecutes under the law as it stands as assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the effectively as it can, and we must do all we can to ensure current Crown Prosecution Service guidelines on that it does. prosecuting cases of child sexual abuse. [908284] Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): It is clear from The Attorney-General (Jeremy Wright): In October the evidence from Rotherham and the inquiries that 2013, the CPS issued guidelines setting out a new approach have been conducted that what the victims of child to child sexual abuse cases. Steps to be taken include the sexual abuse said was not accepted; they were not use of specialist prosecutors, the provision of dedicated believed by the authorities and they were not supported CPS units to manage such cases, and the application of by the CPS. What measures can my right hon. and a new approach to considering evidence in such cases. learned Friend take to ensure that victims are given In 2013-14, the number of child abuse prosecutions rose priority in the system, and are believed and supported by 440 to 7,998, and the conviction rate was 76.2%, all the way through? which is the highest that it has ever been. The Attorney-General: My hon. Friend puts his finger Meg Munn: I welcome the Attorney-General’s reply. on one of the substantial problems here. It is important— As he will know, prosecuting sexual offences is very this is part of the guidelines I described earlier—that difficult, and such prosecutions are particularly difficult prosecutors address their preconceptions and prejudices for children. When the guidelines were introduced, it as to how young people who come forward with these was feared that not all the measures involved would be allegations should or should not have been behaving, properly introduced everywhere. What steps are being and how they should or should not react if they had taken to review the process and keep track of what been subject to those kinds of abuse. We also need to happening, so that there can be a proper evaluation and ensure that prosecutors challenge prejudices and good practice can be built on? preconceptions in court, so that in the presentation of 1287 Oral Answers24 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 1288 prosecutions, evidence is called, where appropriate, to The Attorney-General: What I believe—and what I challenge those, and so that judges say what they need suspect many of our constituents believe—is that human to say to juries to make sure that no one proceeds under rights are important, but that it should be our courts a false preconception. that adjudicate on such questions rather than the Court in Strasbourg. It is extremely important to recognise Human Rights: Domestic and International Obligations that the Court in Strasbourg has given rulings suggesting that responsibility for some matters that the right hon. Gentleman and I would agree should be determined by 3. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): What Parliament in this country should be accrued to that recent discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues Court in Strasbourg. That is simply wrong. He knows on implementation of the UK’s domestic and international that, and I know that. The other thing that he knows, as legal obligations on human rights. [908285] a member of the Opposition home affairs team and a former Minister in the Home Office, is that it has been 6. Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): What recent extremely difficult to deport those who create a real discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on threat to the British people, because of their abuse of implementation of the UK’s domestic and international human rights laws. We intend to do something about legal obligations on human rights. [908288] that, but it appears that his party does not.

The Attorney-General (Jeremy Wright): I have regular Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): discussions with colleagues about a large number of Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that it important issues. As the House knows, by convention would be prudent to revert to the situation that we had advice the Law Officers may have given is not disclosed before the Human Rights Act was passed, in which a outside Government. However, domestic and international court case could be referred to the European Court of human rights remain an important aspect of our law Human Rights, and the ruling could then be applied to and key considerations in the Law Officers’ work. the law of the land?

Jeremy Corbyn: Since human rights is an international issue and an international obligation, and rights are The Attorney-General: I certainly think that the judgments universal, will the Attorney-General take this opportunity of the Court in Strasbourg will be looked at by our to say he has no intention of withdrawing from the courts in the circumstances that my hon. Friend describes, European convention on human rights and thus and that they will no doubt take note of some of them. undermining the whole cause of human rights and I do not think it right, however, that the courts in this justice across the continent and diminishing Britain’s country should be obliged to take account of the judgments ability to criticise anybody else for human rights abuses? of the Strasbourg Court, and that is what we would change. It is perfectly reasonable for the courts in this country to look at judgments not only from Europe but The Attorney-General: As I think the hon. Gentleman from other jurisdictions, but it should not be obligatory knows, I make a distinction between what is in the for them to do so, and that is what we would change. convention, which I wholly support, and the interpretation of the convention given by the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, with which I have some Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): We disagreement, and I do not think we should confuse the need clarification on this point, because the Government’s two. Neither do I believe that it is axiomatic that the position on human rights is chaotic. We know that the only way to have a good record on human rights is to be Law Officers are at loggerheads on this issue, and that a member of the European convention on human rights the very sensible former Attorney-General, the right and a signatory to it. Countries such as New Zealand, hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve), Australia and Canada, none of which, obviously, are was sacked in the Prime Minister’s massacre of the signatories to this document, all have a very good moderates because of his “poor” human rights stance. record. The Minister knows, however, that the European Court Similarly, it is not right to assume that countries that declares more than 98% of claims against the UK to be are members of the European convention on human without merit, so why will he not celebrate the excellent rights have a spotless human rights record. That clearly Human Rights Act and commend Strasbourg for its is not the case either; one need only look at some of the common-sense decisions in most of those cases? countries that are signatories to see that. Membership of the convention is neither necessary nor sufficient for The Attorney-General: The hon. Gentleman seems to a country to have a good human rights record, but I can be inviting me to accept that it is fine to have a power tell the hon. Gentleman that a future Conservative that one should not have, so long as one does not use it Government will be utterly committed to the maintenance all the time. That is simply not the position that we of human rights, both domestically and abroad. should be in. He is, of course, right to suggest that this is an important subject, and it will be an important Mr Hanson: I know the Attorney-General’s primary subject in 44 days’ time when the British people will job is to advise the Government, but on this occasion, make a judgment on it. It would be useful to know just for old time’s sake, could he advise me? Given the whether Labour is utterly content with the state of Conservative party’s plan to scrap the Human Rights human rights law in this country and would make no Act 1998, what rights do my constituents currently have changes to it whatever. If that is Labour’s view, as it that they will not have under the next Government if seems to be, the public need to understand that, come the Conservatives are elected? election day. 1289 Oral Answers24 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 1290

Vulnerable Witnesses wide range of organisations that offer pro bono legal assistance. Of course, the local citizens advice bureau is a very good gateway through which her constituents 4. Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): can obtain more specialist legal services. What steps the Crown Prosecution Service is taking to provide greater assistance to vulnerable witnesses and Domestic Abuse to support them better in giving evidence in court. [908286] 7. Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): What recent steps The Solicitor-General (Mr Robert Buckland): The the Crown Prosecution Service has taken to ensure that Crown Prosecution Service is committed to improving prosecutors are able to prosecute cases of domestic the experience at court for all witnesses, and CPS staff abuse more effectively. [908290] work closely with the police and the voluntary sector to ensure that vulnerable witnesses are supported through The Solicitor-General (Mr Robert Buckland): The the criminal justice system. Special measures such as Director of Public Prosecutions has announced new the use of intermediaries or screens in court can also be guidance on the handling of cases of domestic abuse, applied to provide greater support for witnesses who and it was published on 30 December. That guidance give evidence. deals with the handling of all aspects of domestic abuse and offending, including the many ways in which abusers Andrew Bridgen: Does the Minister agree that there is can control, coerce and psychologically abuse their a clear need for children and other vulnerable witnesses victims. The CPS has contributed to the development of to have the ability to give their evidence away from the new domestic abuse offence of coercive controlling court, to ensure that as many prosecutions as possible behaviour, which was introduced in the Serious Crime can progress? Act 2015. The Solicitor-General: I entirely agree with my hon. Mark Pawsey: With organisations in my constituency Friend, and I am encouraged by the work that has been such as Warwickshire Domestic Violence Support Services done in the pilot courts in Leeds, Kingston and Liverpool and RoSA—Rape or Sexual Abuse Support—in Rugby on the use of section 28 provisions to allow the cross- doing great work supporting victims, the number of examination of children and young people away from referrals across the country of domestic violence allegations court. I very much hope that that will become the norm is at its highest ever recorded. What action is being as soon as possible. taken to make sure that more of these cases that are coming to light are being prosecuted? Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): In the light of the Eleanor de Freitas case, will the Solicitor-General review The Solicitor-General: I am grateful to my hon. Friend the guidance to ensure that the provision of support for his question, and I pay tribute to those organisations and counselling services to vulnerable people is not in his constituency, which do so much to protect women removed abruptly? and families from the scourge of domestic abuse. Last The Solicitor-General: That was a particularly sensitive year, the CPS charged in 72,905 domestic violence cases and difficult case that, as the hon. Lady knows, was the referred to it by the police, which is the highest volume subject of careful consideration and reconsideration. and proportion ever recorded—it is a 21% rise from the We must avoid a sudden cut-off of support and help. I previous year. It is anticipated that the CPS will be know that police family liaison officers do a huge dealing with up to 20,000 more domestic violence cases amount of work before and after cases, and I would like than two years ago. to ensure that that sort of work continues, particularly Bribery Act in sensitive cases such as the one that she has raised. Pro Bono Work 8. Sir Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): How many prosecutions have been initiated by the Serious Fraud 5. Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): Office under the Bribery Act 2010. [908291] What steps he has taken to promote pro bono work among members of the legal profession. [908287] The Solicitor-General (Mr Robert Buckland): The Serious Fraud Office has initiated prosecutions against The Solicitor-General (Mr Robert Buckland): The three individuals under the Bribery Act 2010, with two Attorney-General and I are the pro bono champions having been convicted. for the Government, and we are helped in this work by two pro bono co-ordinating committees, which bring Sir Hugh Bayley: I spent more than 10 years arguing together the leading organisations dedicated to the delivery for a radical change in the law on bribery, which was of pro bono legal representation, both here and abroad. passed as the 2010 Act, with all-party support, just We took part in a wide range of events during national before the last election. The OECD, which has criticised pro bono week last November, and we will take part in us in the past for not doing enough to implement its further events this year. convention, thinks it is important that from time to Sheryll Murray: What assistance can my hon. and time cases are brought before the courts. Will the Solicitor- learned Friend offer constituents of mine on limited General assure me that the SFO has adequate resources incomes to get legal advice that they need? to investigate and prosecute cases of this kind? The Solicitor-General: I thank my hon. Friend for The Solicitor-General: I am grateful to the hon. that question. The national pro bono website, www. Gentleman, and I pay tribute to him, as he is retiring nationalprobonocentre.org.uk, gives information on a from this place, for his assiduous work on this and other 1291 Oral Answers24 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 1292 issues over the years. He rightly says that it is important that David Green, QC, has brought as its director, for the reputation of this country that cases are brought, because of his experience in private practice? Is that under either the new Act or the old Act. We must not perhaps a lesson for future appointments to other senior forget that we have had a number of key successes in prosecuting bodies? non-Bribery Act cases that predate the passage of this legislation, most notably the prosecution of Smith & Ouzman Ltd for bribes paid to Kenyan officials in The Solicitor-General: I am grateful to my hon. Friend relation to the electoral processes. We have had a number for that, and I join him in thanking the director for the of successes, which we should celebrate. hard work he is putting in to ensure that the SFO performs well and improves its progress. On the previous question on resources, may I just say that the availability Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): Does of blockbuster funding means that the SFO has the the Solicitor-General agree that part of the SFO’s success flexibility to prosecute cases as and when they arise and in recent years in these matters stems from the rigour meet the threshold test? 1293 24 MARCH 2015 Rural Payments Agency: Basic 1294 Payment Scheme Rural Payments Agency: Basic window opens in December 2015. All data entered so Payment Scheme far on the rural payment scheme system have been saved and will be used by the RPA to complete farmers’ claims this year. 12.34 pm In addition, a number of other EU countries have Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab) (Urgent had difficulties in getting their IT systems in place this Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, year to process this first year of a new, more complicated Food and Rural Affairs if she will make a statement on CAP. In parallel, the Commission has offered an option the Government’s failure to deliver a digital-only system to member states, allowing them to extend to 15 June for processing the basic payment scheme via the Rural the deadline for basic payment scheme applications. Payments Agency, and what assurances she can give to That was discussed on 16 March in a Council meeting, UK farmers that the failure will not result in significant which I attended, and it was confirmed by the Commission delays to the receipt of their basic payment? on 19 March. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for In conclusion, the core of the new system works and Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (George Eustice): I we are not abandoning anything. We will continue to am grateful for this opportunity to update the House. use it and it will enable claims to be processed efficiently This is the first year of the new basic payment scheme. this year and will be the basis for service improvements As the new common agricultural policy is so complex, in future years. However, the action that we announced we needed to invest in a new computer system to last week will ensure that farmers can submit their administer claims; the existing single payment scheme applications successfully this year, and it has been welcomed computer system would not have been able to cope. The by stakeholders and those in the industry. new system included a core, which was there to process Given the imminence of the general election, I am data and which was based on an existing system used in keen that we communicate with the Opposition on this other countries, and a portal that enabled farmers to issue and keep them in touch. I have written to the hon. register their details and to map land passes. Member for Garston and Halewood (Maria Eagle) The core of the new rural payment system is working explaining the current situation in detail, and, as she well. To date, more than 80% of farm businesses in knows, I have offered to meet her, with Mark Grimshaw, England have registered successfully on it, so they can to discuss the matter further. Our offices are in discussion submit a BPS claim. We continue to engage and encourage about a date for that meeting, which I intend to happen farm businesses to register online as soon as possible. this week. I am also more than happy to keep Opposition However, there have been performance issues with the Front-Bench Members updated on the changes in the online interface that enables farmers to input the data weeks ahead. directly, especially when it comes to mapping land passes. We have been working to address those issues Maria Eagle: Many farmers will be depending on the since February. Our priority has always been to ensure basic payment scheme to keep their business afloat and that farmers can submit their claims by the deadline. on prompt payment to maintain vital cash flow. Given That is why we have made adjustments to our plans. the seriousness of this matter, I am astounded that the The RPA is now offering farmers and their agents the Under-Secretary of State has been sent to this House to option of using existing paper-based forms to finalise deal with it. Where is the Secretary of State? As well as their claims. Information from those forms will then be refusing to answer questions on BBC’s “Farming Today”, input by the RPA on to the system. she now appears to be running away from her duties to this House. Let us hope that the Select Committee has There are two new ways in which farmers can complete better luck getting her to appear tomorrow. their claims. Farm businesses with little change to their land will be fast-tracked by the RPA. In particular, The disastrous late admission from Ministers that the those who predominantly have permanent pasture will mapping functionality of the Government’s digital by not need to map those details. They will receive an default system for making payments to farmers does e-mail in April that summarises the land and entitlement not work is a serious blow to hard-working farmers, not information already held on record, together with simple least because the Secretary of State said on 11 March, instructions on completing their claim by e-mail. The in evidence to the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs RPA has identified approximately 39,000 farmers who Committee: fall into that category. “The maps are up and running.” Secondly, farm businesses that need to map new We have all heard rumours for weeks, but the Government features can use blank existing forms to prepare their have blithely continued, heads in the sand, to insist that claims before they are sent a pre-populated form in everything will work. As recently as 12 March, at the early April. They can submit their claim by e-mail, last DEFRA oral questions, the Under-Secretary of by post, or through an RPA drop-in centre, and we have State was saying that his only plan was to make the 50 of those now established. Separately, all agents will system work; there was no contingency. As a consequence, have received maps of their clients’ land from the RPA many farmers who have endured incredible frustration by the end of next week. Those dealing with the most trying to use the system to map the land, or have paid complex cases will be offered additional support. The agents to do it for them, now face having to do it all RPA is also exploring the option of giving some agents again on paper, and at one of the busiest times of the direct access to the system so that they can make farming year. How frustrating and wasteful of time and applications quickly. hard-earned money. This is a pragmatic response that applies to the Will the Under-Secretary of State please tell the application process in 2015. It means that we will be House why Ministers have repeatedly given assurances able to make payments to farmers when the payment that the system works that have turned out not to be 1295 Rural Payments Agency: Basic 24 MARCH 2015 Rural Payments Agency: Basic 1296 Payment Scheme Payment Scheme accurate? Will those farmers who have paid agents to window. In the past couple of years well over 95% of make their claims online be compensated for now having farmers have been paid on the first day of banking and to pay them again to submit the same information? It paid early. I am confident, as I said, that once we have has previously been insisted that the scheme is too the information in and it has been processed, we will complex for paper. Now we have reverted to paper, so is have a system in place that can deal with it. there an increased risk of errors, which could result in The hon. Lady mentioned contingency plans. We penalties? Will the hon. Gentleman give an assurance have adapted our plans and acted to ensure that farmers that in future farmers will be able to access and use the can get their applications in time this year. That is the information they have already submitted, or will they be responsible thing to do. It would have been wrong to forced to start again? abandon the system and prematurely abandon attempts On Saturday, Mark Grimshaw, the chief executive of to sort out the portal, particularly the part that deals the Rural Payments Agency, referred to the fact that with land mapping. We have acted in time to ensure that EU payment window is open until the end of June. He farmers can get their applications in place, and the steps said: that we have taken have been welcomed by the farming “I am absolutely confident that we will pay within the payment industry. window.” For farmers expecting their payments in December, that Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): I pay tribute is far from reassuring. It is disastrous. Will the one-month to my right hon. Friend the Member for South East delay in the deadline for applications cause a delay in Cambridgeshire (Sir James Paice), who carried out fantastic payments? Mr Grimshaw has said: work in turning around the mess that he inherited in the “It will be foolhardy of me to commit to anything in December”. Department and sorting this out. Will my hon. Friend help me with one detail? The mapping that we are What does the Minister expect farmers to do for cash talking about is often very detailed—an electric fence flow while they wait for their cheques? here, a bit of undergrowth there. Would it be possible to When did Ministers first hear that the digital by pay farmers on account as partial payment this year, default system they chose to insist upon would not with the amounts being adjusted in subsequent years’ work? Why did they not implement contingency payments? arrangements sooner, to save farmers the time and expense now wasted? How much money has been wasted? George Eustice: Provided an application is received Finally, can the Under-Secretary of State assure the by the deadline, there is provision in the EU regulations House that Ministers will now remove their heads from for it to be amended for a period of weeks after that. the sand, rise above the chaos and confusion their My hon. Friend’s suggestion of a payment on account incompetence has caused, and come clean to the House: while an application has not been received would not fit will the mapping functionality ever work, or will it need within the EU regulations, but we have made progress to be completely replaced? in getting that deadline extended to 15 June, and I have asked the RPA to take a sympathetic view towards George Eustice: I will begin by reminding the Opposition farmers who are struggling to get their application in of their own record on the Rural Payments Agency. Let and who may want to amend those details after their us not forget that in 2005, the system they introduced form has been submitted. led to £600 million of disallowance for this country. Payments were regularly more than a year late—hardly Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): When any farmers ever received their payments on time. It the Paymaster General boasted to the public services took a Conservative-led Government coming to power 2030 conference just 20 days ago that under this in 2010 to sort it out. Administration the words “Government” and “IT” no The hon. Lady asks whether everything will have to longer induce visions of failed IT projects, is it safe to be resubmitted on paper. As I made clear in my opening assume that he did not know about this situation? statement, for those farmers who have managed to enter their mapping details, the information has been George Eustice: As I pointed out, we have not abandoned recorded; they will not need to start again. She says that anything. The core of the system is working and will we have always maintained that the new CAP is too still be used. What we are doing is ensuring that the complex to be processed on paper alone and needs a information provided, in many cases on paper, to the computer. That remains the position. As I said in my RPA will be entered by digitisers working for the RPA, opening statement, that is why we will still use the core but it will still go into an electronic system. of the system to process the data. We have, for example, coefficients on the areas farmers have of broad beans, Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): leguminous vegetables, hedges and so on. It is complex, Does my hon. Friend regret the Department saying that and that is why we are not removing a digital approach, there was no need for a contingency plan? Will he but simply having RPA officers enter the information reassure the House that there cannot be a digital-only on behalf of the farmer. This is not a paper-only system where farmers do not have access to broadband? system; it is a paper-assisted system. What are the Government doing to speed up the situation The hon. Lady said that Mr Grimshaw, the chief for farmers living in areas with less than 20% and executive of the RPA, had said that he could not give sometimes less than 40% coverage by broadband to guarantees about the payment window. Having worked ensure that the core system will work next year, as we with Mr Grimshaw for 18 months, I can say that he is were assured by the RPA in the Select Committee that cautious and he never gives guarantees. In all the time I the system had been tried and tested across the European have known him he has never said anything other than Union? Will he confirm that the extension has been that we will make our payments within the payment agreed for payments to be entered by 15 June? 1297 Rural Payments Agency: Basic 24 MARCH 2015 Rural Payments Agency: Basic 1298 Payment Scheme Payment Scheme George Eustice: I hope that my hon. Friend will Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): I assume understand that our plans have always been adaptable. that departmental officials produced a risk assessment We have always had the ability to change plans and our for Ministers when the move to this system was proposed, priority is to ensure that every farmer can get their so can the Minister today advise the House on what he application in by the deadline. That is why we announced thinks are the projected costs to be incurred by DEFRA what we did last week. It is not necessary to announce and the RPA, and indeed by farmers and landholders, one’s contingency plans until one is ready to use them. as a result of this mess? That does not mean that we had not had thought about this and that we did not have the ability to keep those George Eustice: It is a matter of record that the plans adaptable. project is intended to cost in the region of £154 million. All such projects are monitored by the Major Projects On my hon. Friend’s wider point about an internet-only Authority within the Cabinet Office. or digital-only application, we have 50 digital support centres that will help farmers to do this, and we are Nick Herbert (Arundel and South Downs) (Con): setting up help centres in farmers markets and everywhere The important thing is that farmers can submit their we can to ensure that they are able to get their application claims on time and that the Government have rightly in on time. We have ensured as well that the system can taken action to enable them to do so. In learning the work at relatively low broadband speeds, so I believe we lessons, will my hon. Friend recall that a decade ago have addressed the issues that she raised, but in the only 15% of farmers were being paid on time by the short term farmers can submit their application this Rural Payments Agency? Under this Government, that year in paper-based form. figure is now 98%, so he should take no lessons from the Labour party. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Why is it that every time this Government mess things up George Eustice: My right hon. Friend is absolutely they send a junior Minister to the Dispatch Box—the right; the Labour party, when in government, allowed Secretary of State is nowhere to be seen—to blame chaos to continue year after year. We have acted swiftly someone else? I happen to be an avid fan of the BBC’s to ensure that farmers can get their applications in on “Farming Today”—almost as avid a fan as I am of time this year. Clare Balding’s “Ramblings”, as those who follow me on Twitter will know—and the fact is that had “Farming Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Obviously there Today” not exposed the deep concern in the farming are difficulties with payments across the whole United community about this mess, we would not have had this Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Has urgent question today. the Minister had an opportunity to discuss these matters with his counterpart in the Northern Ireland Assembly, for example, and what discussions has he had with the George Eustice: That is simply not true. We made our farming unions, which might be able to indicate the best decision when we realised that a software update the way to ensure that payments are made on time? weekend before last had not worked as we had hoped. It had nothing to do with any media coverage; the media George Eustice: On the latter point, all farming unions have told us nothing that we were not already aware of. and representatives and agricultural consultants have The Secretary of State and I work as a team, so I am welcomed the steps we have taken, because they want to here today and she will be appearing before the ensure that they can get their applications in on time. I Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee discussed the matter with some colleagues from the tomorrow. We have been working closely together on devolved Administrations at the European Council last this and both regularly meet the RPA to discuss these week, and I can confirm that they are all relieved that challenges. the Commission has extended the deadline.

Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): I remind Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): Can my hon. Friend that until the coalition Government my hon. Friend reassure farmers in the remote parts of sorted out earlier problems at the RPA, I was having to my constituency by confirming that they will get the deal with hundreds of cases of farmers in my constituency support they need, whether on paper or through access who were affected and make representations on their to online services, to avoid the disaster they faced under behalf. Has he noted the fact that we will soon be in a the system introduced by the previous Government? six-week election period during which none of us, whether George Eustice: As my hon. Friend says, we have or not we are standing for re-election, will have the acted swiftly to ensure that we can send maps and paper status of a Member of Parliament, so he is likely to applications to ensure that all farmers can get their receive representations during that period from extremely applications in on time. We have a network of 50 digital worried farmers? support centres to help farmers with the registration process, because we still want them to register with the George Eustice: The right hon. Gentleman will be online system. aware that although we will all cease to be Members of Parliament next Monday, I will remain the farming Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con): Amid Minister and the Secretary of State will remain the all the arguments, is not it simply vital to recognise that Secretary of State until a new Government are formed, the important thing is that farmers get the money that is and I can reassure him that I will be having regular due to them when they need it? Echoing the words of telephone conferences with the RPA and attending my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton meetings to discuss and monitor the situation. We will (Miss McIntosh), there is the consolatory thought that keep a very close eye on this indeed. that will allow broadband roll-out to catch up. 1299 Rural Payments Agency: Basic 24 MARCH 2015 Rural Payments Agency: Basic 1300 Payment Scheme Payment Scheme George Eustice: As my right hon. Friend knows, Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): I draw the this Government have spent over £700 million on rural House’s attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ broadband, and we are still looking at other options to Financial Interests. I congratulate the Minister on taking reach the remaining 5% who still need it. He makes a decisive action and avoiding the disaster that the previous good point. The focus for me this year is to ensure that Government oversaw in 2006-07, when only 15% of farmers can get their applications in on time, which is farmers were paid on time. I congratulate him on listening why we have taken action. Unlike the Labour party, to the National Farmers Union, the Country Land and which let chaos continue for years, we acted swiftly to Business Association and other groups that have made ensure that we could deal with the problem as soon as it representations and on making sure that we find a was identified. system that operates and allows farmers to be paid.

Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): I welcome the George Eustice: My hon. Friend makes a good point; extension of the deadline to 15 June. However, bearing the Labour party did not grip the problems with the in mind that too often deadlines are not met, can the RPA, so there was over £600 million of disallowance Minister reassure me that our farmers will not be fined and farmers were often paid over a year late—as he if they do not meet the deadline and that, whatever said, only 15% were paid on time. happens, the situation will be resolved before anyone talks about being fined, or of the country being fined, and will the European Union fine us if we do not meet Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): I draw certain deadlines? the House’s attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. I, too, congratulate my George Eustice: As my hon. Friend might know, the hon. Friend the Minister. At least farmers now have deadline of 15 May is written in EU regulations and the certainty and know that they can apply and that they Commission has agreed to extend it to 15 June. Under will receive their payments, but can he give an utmost the regulations, farmers are given a period of 21 days assurance that he will do everything he can to ensure during which a late application can be accepted. Until that this delay in applications will not result in any delay last week it was not clear whether the Commission in payments? would agree to an extension, although it had indicated that it might, so our plans were made on the basis that George Eustice: Yes, I can give my hon. Friend that we would be aiming to meet the deadline of 15 May. assurance. We will be seeking to ensure that the claims Having that additional month gives us some more leeway, are processed as quickly as possible and paid as speedily which is obviously welcome. as we have demonstrated our ability to do in recent years. Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): Does the Minister agree that the over-complicated CAP system demonstrates Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): As the Minister knows, that this can affect all member states in a very detrimental all that farmers in my constituency want is to get their way? Is that something that we should be renegotiating application in on time and to get paid on time so that as part of our new deal with the European Union? they can get on with running their business. Is he concerned about errors made this year and the ensuing George Eustice: My hon. Friend makes a good point. penalties that we have heard about from other Members? We are already in discussions with Commissioner Hogan Will farmers still be able to use the online system, or about the interpretation of existing regulations for next just agents, given that not all farmers have the use of year to ensure that we can get some simplification. In agents? the mid-term review we will be pressing for further simplification of the greening rules. For the new CAP, which will take effect post 2020, we are already looking George Eustice: We are giving some of the larger at radical reform to make it simpler and make more agents, representing just short of 20,000 farmers, access common sense. to the online system. We will not be able to give that access to all agents because of the training required and Bill Wiggin (North Herefordshire) (Con): I draw the the time scale needed to enable them to use it. All House’s attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ farmers must still register online, and they will be able Financial Interests. Farmers understand better than to download maps. Those who have simple claims will anybody that things can go wrong, but what they cannot be able to sign a declaration to say that their land use tolerate is damage to their business. Can the Minister has not changed and is still simple, such as permanent give me a categorical assurance that if mistakes are pasture. I take on board my hon. Friend’s point about made on these forms, the farmers will be corrected, not errors. As I said, I have been pressing the RPA to take punished? the most generous possible interpretation of the EU regulations. The regulations are clear that where an George Eustice: I have had that conversation with the error is not the farmer’s fault, no penalty can be levelled RPA. One of my jobs as Farming Minister is to sign off against them. some of the appeals that reach the final process, and I can tell my hon. Friend that I am very challenging on Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con): those and have asked the RPA to adopt the most Before he steps down from the House very shortly, I sympathetic approach possible. All information that join colleagues in paying tribute to the work of my farmers provide on paper will ultimately be entered by neighbour, my right hon. Friend the Member for South digitisers working for the RPA, and they will carry out East Cambridgeshire (Sir James Paice), not only for his checks to ensure that the forms they are entering reflect work in clearing up the mess that we inherited with the what farmers intended to put on them. RPA but his wider work on behalf of farmers. 1301 Rural Payments Agency: Basic 24 MARCH 2015 1302 Payment Scheme [Stephen Barclay] Falkland Islands Defence Review My hon. Friend mentioned the 15 digital centres that are going to provide assistance. Will he update the 1.1 pm House on what additional resource allocation will be The Secretary of State for Defence (Michael Fallon): put in place to help with the bureaucracy and the With permission, Mr Speaker, I should like to make a difficult conversations that farmers may have with helplines? statement on the Falkland Islands defence review. Safeguarding our citizens and their way of life remains George Eustice: Yes. We have started to treat these the most important responsibility of Government and digital centres as drop-in centres so that farmers can of the Ministry of Defence. In March 2013, the Falkland drop in on them without an appointment. During this Islands referendum reaffirmed the islanders’ overwhelming crucial period, we are redeploying staff from DEFRA wish to remain British. Of the 92% who voted, 99.8% voted to the RPA to ensure that the helpline and the digital in favour of maintaining their political status as an support centres are fully manned and have the capacity overseas territory of the United Kingdom. We will to cope with anything thrown at them. always defend the right of the Falkland islanders to determine their own political future. The Ministry of Defence retains responsibility for the external defence and security of British interests in the South Atlantic, and, to that end, undertakes regular assessments to ensure that we have in place the appropriate defensive capability. In autumn 2013, my predecessor asked officials to undertake a thorough review of the forces we hold on the Falkland Islands and our contingency plans for their defence. The objective was to ensure that our enduring commitment to the defence of the islands is sustained effectively.That review has now been completed. The review’s conclusions remain operationally sensitive in the light of potential threats, and I hope the House will understand that I cannot disclose much of the detail. However, I can tell the House that we have updated our assessment of any threat to the islands. This includes a consideration of the changes that may arise from the islanders’ plans to develop their economy, including the potential for development of an oil and gas industry. We continue to discuss these issues with the Falkland Islands Government. I have endorsed the assessment of the Chief of the Defence Staff and the Commander of Joint Forces Command that the current military presence is broadly proportionate to the threats and risks that we face. Our forces in the South Atlantic are entirely defensive, and are at the level required to ensure the defence of the Falkland Islands against any potential threat. However, I have also agreed a number of measures designed to ensure our resilience for the short, medium and longer term. Those measures will include the return of military support helicopters, which were removed in 2006 to support operations in Afghanistan. On current plans, this will involve the deployment of two Chinooks, which will be operational by the middle of next year. This is a significant capability that will provide reactive, 24/7 tactical mobility in order to allow a swift and decisive response to any emerging incidents. The helicopters will also bring a heavy-lift capability and enhance the training opportunities available to the resident infantry company. We also have plans in place to deliver enhanced operational communications for the headquarters at Mount Pleasant to better enable the sharing of real-time operational data. I can confirm that we will be renewing the ground-based air defence system when Rapier comes out of service at around the end of the decade. We will maintain our commitment to provide a Falkland Islands patrol vessel, currently HMS Clyde. In addition, we intend to carry out a number of projects to replace some of the ageing infrastructure—for example, the refurbishment of Mare harbour and the replacement of 1303 Falkland Islands Defence Review24 MARCH 2015 Falkland Islands Defence Review 1304 the existing power generation systems at Mount Pleasant surface-to-air missiles, and about 1,200 troops permanently airfield. A major modernisation of the fuels infrastructure stationed on the Falklands, supported by visiting Royal is under way and now nearing completion. In total, we Navy warships and attack submarines—as a realistic expect to invest up to £180 million in improving and deterrent to any potential threat to the islands. modernising our infrastructure on the islands over the However, is it not the case that that position should be next 10 years. continuously reviewed and that the Government should In addition to the operational improvements I have remain constantly vigilant for any emerging threats? mentioned, we are taking action to improve the quality For some years, Argentina has been trying to replace of life of those who serve in the Falklands, including its antiquated and increasingly unserviceable fighter planned improvements to accommodation and a new fleets with a newer and more capable air frame. Will the primary school. Although there will be some changes in Secretary of State therefore say a little more about personnel numbers as the Sea King helicopters are Russia’s involvement and what conversations he has withdrawn and the Chinook force stands up, I have had with our allies about its role in the region? Will he decided that for the foreseeable future we will keep share his assessment of the actual threat facing the our numbers at around their current levels of about Falklands at the moment and whether it has increased 1,200 personnel, military and civilian. I know the House in recent months? will want to join me in taking this opportunity to pay tribute to our brave men and women, military and How will the measures that the Secretary of State has civilian, who leave behind their families and friends for announced today be funded? In the context of the months or years at a time in order to ensure the right of spending plan set out in last year’s spending review, it the Falkland islanders to remain British. We will always became clear that the Ministry of Defence budget would remember the bravery of the 255 British servicemen come under severe pressure and the Chancellor’s Budget who gave their lives for that cause. did nothing to dispel those concerns, so how will this ongoing commitment be met? I am aware of the close interest that the Defence Committee takes in the Falkland Islands, and of the Will the Secretary of State say more about why it was Committee’s most recent visit there earlier this year. I that certain parts of the media were this morning reporting am grateful for its insights, some of which echo the greater number of troops, yet he has made it clear in his findings of the review. I wrote earlier today to the statement that the number will remain at about its Chairman of the Committee. current level? The review we have undertaken confirms our How soon will the missile system be upgraded? Can commitment to the Falkland Islands. We will continue the Secretary of State guarantee that there will not be to defend the right of the Falkland islanders to determine any capability gaps between the end of the Rapier and their future and maintain their way of life against the commencement of the new system? Can he also whatever threats may arise. The review ensures that we reassure the House that we have the appropriate number will continue to have the right mix of people, equipment of Typhoons deployed in the Falklands? Is he satisfied and infrastructure to deliver that commitment in the that there is an appropriate level of intelligence sharing years ahead. The Government are not complacent and to ensure that we are able to deploy all our assets we will continue to remain vigilant. However, on the effectively? Will the Secretary of State say more about basis of the review and the follow-on measures that I the time scale for modernising the infrastructure of the have established, I am satisfied that the Government Falklands, including the harbour? can be confident in their continued ability to defend the The involvement of Russia is clearly a worry, and the South Atlantic islands. I commend this statement to the deterrent of enhanced military capabilities is to be House. welcomed, but surely we can all agree that the best way forward is diplomacy. What diplomatic activity is taking 1.8 pm place, and what discussions has the Secretary of State Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab): I thank the Defence had with the Foreign Secretary? Secretary for his statement and for advance sight of it. Finally, is this not the clearest indication that we need Let me state at the outset that it is right, on occasions an open debate about the defence and security challenges such as this, once again to remember and pay tribute to facing the UK and that the next strategic defence and the courage of the men and women of the armed forces security review needs to be strategically driven, equipping in retaking the Falklands in 1982—in particular, the our armed forces for the challenges of an increasingly 255 Britons who made the ultimate sacrifice, and the unstable and dangerous world, as the Defence Committee hundreds of service personnel who were injured, and has said today? their families. The will of the people of the Falkland Islands—their We should also remember, as the Secretary of State right to self-determination, expressed in the recent said, that the views of the Falkland islanders are firmly referendum—must be respected, and Argentina’s transition on the record. Does he agree that the recent referendum to democracy should give us some confidence that that was a democratic process overseen by international will be the case. However, we believe it is prudent to observers that has again made it clear that the islanders take the measures outlined by the Secretary of State as wish to remain British? Our position is clear: the only a proportionate response to the current threat. We people to determine the future of the Falkland Islands believe that these measures should command the support are the Falkland islanders themselves. of Members on both sides of the House. The Government are therefore right in their vow to remain vigilant and committed to the protection of the Michael Fallon: I am grateful to the shadow Secretary Falkland islanders at all times. We support the current of State for his comments and for his broad welcome deployment of assets—Typhoon combat aircraft, Rapier for the review’s conclusions. I agree with him about the 1305 Falkland Islands Defence Review24 MARCH 2015 Falkland Islands Defence Review 1306

[Michael Fallon] Sir Nick Harvey (North Devon) (LD): May I welcome the statement and endorse the Government’s emphasis importance of the referendum and its verification and on prevention rather than cure, which is surely the right the overwhelming result showing that the islanders want approach? The Secretary of State will be aware of a to remain British. great deal of speculation about a renewed aerial threat The hon. Gentleman asked a number of specific from Argentina in the light of Russian involvement, questions, including about how often we conduct such a as referred to by the shadow Defence Secretary. Is he review. The last review was conducted in 2008 and this confident that we have enough air defence assets, so review was set in train in 2013, which is about right as that if that did begin to materialise as a tangible threat an interval: we should look at the issue ever four or five we would be able to sustain a higher level of air defence years. over the longer term? The hon. Gentleman asked about the potential involvement of Russia and press speculation. I am not Michael Fallon: I hope I can reassure my hon. Friend, responsible for speculation in the newspapers about who has served in the Ministry of Defence. Unlike the either Russia or, indeed, troop numbers. So far as the situation in 1982, we have the airfield, modern Typhoons threat is concerned, I re-emphasise that the principal are deployed there, anti-aircraft systems are in place threat to the islands remains the unjustified claim of and we are able, through the airfield, to deploy other Argentina to ownership of them. aircraft relatively quickly, if necessary. On the budget, I made it clear that the expenditure Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): This is the first is a 10-year programme: there will be expenditure of opportunity for us all to put on record our condolences £180 million over the next 10 years. On Rapier, we to everybody who has been caught up in the terrible expect it to go out of service in about 2019 or 2020, and plane crash in France. I am sure that Members on both there will be no gap before we introduce its replacement. sides of the House would like our thoughts to be sent to The hon. Gentleman asked about diplomatic discussions the families of the many people who have died today. with Argentina. He will have noticed the presence on I agree with the Secretary of State about the importance the Front Bench of my colleagues from the Foreign and of the right to self-determination and I join him in Commonwealth Office, who are always ready to talk to paying tribute to all those who served in the Falkland Argentina. However, if the discussions are to be about Islands, including my colleague Keith Brown, the Scottish the future of the Falkland Islands, it is very important veterans Minister, who fought in the Falklands war as a that representatives of the Falklands Islands Government Royal Marine. The UK is the only maritime power are present in the room when they take place. without maritime patrol aircraft, which is relevant for territorial home defence and for overseas territories Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con): On such as the Falklands. Does the Secretary of State agree behalf of the Defence Committee, I welcome the Secretary that MPA should be procured as quickly as possible of State’s statement on the Falkland Islands. May I pay and enter service as a priority? particular tribute to my hon. Friends the Members for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) and for Colchester (Sir Bob Michael Fallon: I am sure the whole House will echo Russell), who led the Committee’s trip to the Falkland the sympathy the hon. Gentleman has offered to those Islands, and thank the Secretary of State for taking on tragically involved in this morning’s Airbus crash. board their recommendations? On self-determination, as I have said, 99% of the islanders voted yes in the referendum, which is a slightly Michael Fallon: I am grateful to the Chairman of the higher proportion than those who voted yes in the more Defence Committee and I am particularly grateful to recent referendum in Scotland. It is probably worth those two members of his Committee for undertaking bearing that in mind. On maritime patrol capability, that particular journey. It is not especially easy to visit MPA is not the only way of securing some of the the Falkland Islands at any time and it obviously involves necessary surveillance. The previous Government were a commitment of a number of days. We have, of course, not able to bring that capability to fruition with the reflected on the recommendations my hon. Friend set development of the Nimrod aircraft. In fact, as the hon. out in his letter to me. Gentleman knows, the plane has never actually flown and it was massively over budget and years over time. Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): I welcome the Secretary We will have an opportunity to return to the issue in the of State’s statement and his comments about the right SDSR, which will be carried out after the election. to self-determination for the Falkland islanders. It is very important that we emphasise that. On the £180 million Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con): I warmly that will be spent, when will the refurbishment of the welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement, which I hope harbour start and finish? will leave the Argentine Government in absolutely no doubt whatsoever of the determination of the United Michael Fallon: The hon. Gentleman plays a key Kingdom, represented by Members throughout this role on the all-party group on the Falkland Islands House, to defend the Falkland Islands from any aggression and I appreciate the welcome he has given to our from Argentina or anywhere else. Does my right hon. findings. The overall programme of modernisation and Friend agree that his statement illustrates a wide range improvements, which, as I have said, will cost £180 million, of military commitments to which the United Kingdom will take place over 10 years, but I will get back to the is party, and that those commitments need to be properly hon. Gentleman with the specific dates of the Mare resourced, which means that we need to spend at least— harbour modernisation. possibly more than—2% of GDP on our defence budget? 1307 Falkland Islands Defence Review24 MARCH 2015 Falkland Islands Defence Review 1308

Michael Fallon: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Of Michael Fallon: We would certainly like more air course, such a degree of commitment and deployment links to the Falklands. I shall obviously continue to of troops and aircraft would not be necessary if we did discuss with my hon. Friends at the Foreign and not have this continuing intimidation from Argentina. Commonwealth Office what other opportunities or If the Argentine Government were able to accept the potential there is for different services to other territories democratic wishes of the islanders to remain British, to be jointly linked up. none of this would be necessary. So far as resources generally are concerned, I know Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): The Secretary my hon. Friend understands that we are able to commit of State referred in a previous answer to the international our troops, planes and ships around the globe within context. Will he tell us what discussions the Government the budget we have at the moment. I note what he says have recently had with Latin American countries and about the 2%, and I know that he will join me in being the United States about these issues, given the unwillingness pleased that we are meeting the NATO target this year of the US to support Britain with diplomacy in the and that we will go on meeting it next year. past?

Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): Michael Fallon: I am sure that Governments across The Secretary of State said that the principal threat to the region have noted the results of the recent referendum the Falkland Islands remains from Argentina. Will he in the Falkland Islands, and that they would respect the say a little more about the role that Russia seems to be right of the Falkland islanders to determine their future. playing? If the stories about the leasing of long-range We do have discussions with other Governments in bombers in exchange for beef are true, surely that must southern and Latin America. I very recently met the feed into a strategic review of the defence of the Falklands Foreign Minister of Brazil, and I have to tell the hon. more prominently than it seems to be doing at the Gentleman that this subject did not come up. moment. Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): The size of Michael Fallon: I have read the same reports as the the Royal Navy has greatly diminished since 1982. Does hon. Lady. I do not think it would be right for me to the Secretary of State agree that countries such as speculate further on the nature of any particular Russia and Argentina tend to respond to the signals we arrangement between the Governments of Russia and send them? Would it not send a terrible signal to the the Argentine. Our job is to make sure that the islands Argentine Government if we failed to give a commitment are properly defended and to continue to respect the to continue to spend at least the NATO-recommended right of the islanders to determine their own future, and minimum of 2% of GDP on defence throughout the that is what we will do. lifetime of the next Parliament?

Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): If an Argentine Michael Fallon: I hope the signal that will go out Government were foolish enough to give instructions to from the House today—from both sides of the House—will a military officer to invade the Falklands—they had be the signal to the islanders themselves that this better get the message that that would be very foolish— Government are determined to ensure their defence for Mount Pleasant airfield and Mare harbour would be the short, medium and long term, and will always vital ground. May I suggest—I am not asking a question, protect their right to determine their future. but making a statement with which I hope the Defence My right hon. Friend drew attention to the smaller Secretary will agree—that the Falkland Islands Government number of ships. He will of course be aware that the and the Governor are also vital ground, and should be ships we have today are much more powerful than some protected as well? of the earlier platforms. He will know that we are constructing two new aircraft carriers and building Mr Speaker: Order. I think that counts as a question. altogether seven new hunter-killer submarines, and that The hon. Gentleman is being too hard on himself. the Prime Minister has recently announced the next phase of the construction of the Type 26 frigate fleet on Michael Fallon: I sense that my hon. Friend is inviting the Clyde. me to agree with him, and I do agree with him. The Governor and the Falkland Islands Government are a Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Does the key part of the democracy that is the Falkland Islands, Defence Secretary not think it a bit odd that he said and a key part of the Falkland islanders’ ability to nothing in his statement about diplomatic initiatives or determine their own future, as they have just done. relations with other countries, and that only in response to questions from Opposition Members has he even Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): I warmly conceded that there have been discussions? Will he be welcome the strength of the Secretary of State’s more specific: what political, diplomatic and defence commitment, including in answering many of the points discussions has he had with Brazil, Uruguay or Argentina made by the Select Committee. Incidentally, may we in to reduce tensions and stress in the area, rather than passing pay tribute to our Clerk, Mr Ian Thomson, who proposing to spend £180 million? was badly injured during the trip to Argentina? Has the Secretary of State given any thought to a gap Michael Fallon: As I have told the House, we have in our capability that is coming up, namely the withdrawal close and warm relations with other countries in the of the Royal Mail steamer St Helena next year? It region. As I said, I have recently met the Foreign currently supplies an essential link between the Falklands Minister from Brazil, and I and my colleagues continue and St Helena, as well as to Ascension Island. What to meet Ministers from other Governments. There is a thought has he given to replacing that important capability? standing invitation from the Falkland Islands Government 1309 Falkland Islands Defence Review24 MARCH 2015 Falkland Islands Defence Review 1310

[Michael Fallon] important point. There must be no gap between taking one system out of service and introducing the next. to other Governments in the region to visit the islands There will be no gap. for themselves and to understand the islanders’ wish to remain British. Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): Does my right hon. Friend agree that the more far-reaching Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): Typhoon aircraft, which geopolitical issue of the possible involvement of Russia have been mentioned, are built in Warton in my shows why this country must maintain its strong defence constituency. Will the Secretary of State make sure that, force and maintain and renew Trident to ensure that if required, we can send more Typhoons to keep the there is a strong deterrent for any world power that may skies above the Falkland Islands safe? be thinking of getting involved in these things?

Michael Fallon: The very direct answer to my hon. Michael Fallon: I agree with my hon. Friend. We are Friend is yes. There are more Typhoons available. If committed to renewing our independent nuclear deterrent. more are needed for the defence of the islands, we are He will recall that this House voted by a majority of ready to send them, and we have Mount Pleasant airfield 329 as recently as January in favour of renewing our to receive them there. independent nuclear deterrent, with only a handful of Members opposing it. We are committed to that and to maintaining strong defences. Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): In his statement, the Secretary of State said that our Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): The military presence is broadly proportionate to the threats Secretary of State for Defence knows that I am concerned and risks we face. What flexibility is there in our defence about the run-down of the UK’s defence forces. However, preparations for any potential hardening of attitude by we are a mature parliamentary democracy, so I hope Argentina, either unilaterally or with others? that the whiff of gunpowder and the sound of sabre-rattling that we have had this morning—[HON.MEMBERS: “Shame!”] Michael Fallon: We have a number of contingency I am sorry, but I was in Argentina recently and the plans, which we continue to refresh, to deal with any people of Argentina are a very fine people. I do not increase in the threat level. I am sure that the hon. believe that they are looking for conflict. As my hon. Gentleman will understand that I am not able to spell Friend the Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) them out to the House in public session, but I assure mentioned, we should be talking to the Government of him that those contingency plans exist. We take them Argentina at the most senior diplomatic level, rather out every so often to ensure that they are appropriate to than rushing to make precipitous decisions. the existing level of threat. Michael Fallon: Let me say as gently as I can to the Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): As has been hon. Gentleman that we have absolutely no quarrel mentioned, my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for with the people of Argentina—of course not. As he Beckenham (Bob Stewart) and I visited the Falklands at knows, we had to cope in 1982 with the decision of the the end of January, and our report was sent by the junta in Argentina to invade the islands. He talks of our Defence Committee to the Ministry of Defence. For responsibility as a mature democracy. It is surely our security reasons, I cannot comment on most of our responsibility to reflect the democratic wishes of the recommendations, but I draw the House’s attention to islanders. It is their right to determine their own future the £10 million saved by the Royal Engineers with the and to remain British. Of course, we also want to new accommodation for personnel that they are building continue to talk to the Argentine Government about at a radar head we visited. May I urge the Secretary of many other matters that lie between us, including developing State to use £1 million or so of that saving to prevent a stronger commercial relationship. false economy savings and ensure that Mare harbour is fit for purpose and compliant with international maritime Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): Gosport is the regulations? proud home of the Falklands Veterans Foundation. Does the Secretary of State agree that it is right to reassure those proud, brave men, some of whom still Michael Fallon: I referred specifically to the refurbishment bear the scars of the conflict, that we will always fight to of Mare harbour. I am able to tell my hon. Friend, and defend their legacy, which is the sovereignty of the the hon. Member for Halton (Derek Twigg), who also islands? asked about this issue, that the programme to develop Mare harbour is expected to be complete by the end of 2017. Michael Fallon: Absolutely. My hon. Friend is right to remind us that the sacrifice of those who died to fight for the freedom of the Falkland islanders and their Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): The Secretary right to determine their own future should never be of State has given assurances that there will be no forgotten by the British people or by this House. capability gap between the end of Rapier and the commencement of the new system. What measures are Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): in place to ensure that that is the case? May I return to the point about troop numbers? Will the Secretary of State explain why the media felt able to Michael Fallon: We have started to place the first report this morning that there would be a greater number contracts for the replacement of the Rapier missile to of troops, when in his statement he made it clear that ensure that there is no gap. The hon. Lady raises an they would remain at around their current level? 1311 Falkland Islands Defence Review24 MARCH 2015 Falkland Islands Defence Review 1312

Michael Fallon: I am not responsible for speculation review, we have the right deployment of troops and in the media. As the hon. Lady correctly said, I have the right maritime and air assets in place, ready to be decided that the current level of around 1,200 military deployed in their defence. and civilian personnel is about right. The announcement that I have made this afternoon is about the return of David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): I commend the helicopters and a programme of improvements, my right hon. Friend for his steadfast assurance of the including the replacement of the Rapier air defence right of the Falkland islanders to self-determination. system, of around £180 million over the next 10 years. I Will he confirm, in response to other questions that hope that sends a signal of reassurance to the islanders. have been raised in this House, that that need not prevent us from continuing to try to improve our diplomatic Bill Wiggin (North Herefordshire) (Con): I was surprised relationships with all countries in the region? to receive a book from the ambassador of Argentina explaining that the Falkland islanders should not have Michael Fallon: Absolutely; it need not. I know that the right to self-determination. The Secretary of State my hon. Friend has a connection with the Patagonian can be assured that he will have the support of Conservative region of the Argentine. We want to have a warmer and Members for 2% of GDP for defence spending or for closer relationship with the people of the Argentine and whatever it takes to ensure that those people do have the their Government. Nothing in what I have announced right to self-determination. today should make that any more difficult. As I have made clear again and again, we have to respect the right of the islanders to determine their own future. They Michael Fallon: I give my hon. Friend an absolute determined it in the referendum, and it is our duty to assurance. Of course, the islanders were present on the defend the islands. islands before Argentina was formed. Their history goes a lot further back. It might be worth his reminding Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): Does the Secretary the ambassador of that point when he replies to her to of State agree that the economy of the Falkland Islands thank her for the book. would benefit from foreign investment, and that foreign investment will be forthcoming only if we deliver a safe Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): I thank and secure long-term state? the Defence Secretary for his statement. I reiterate that the Opposition also support the self-determination of Michael Fallon: I agree with my hon. Friend. The the Falkland islanders. Whoever forms the Government islands welcome and are receiving foreign investment, after the general election, it is incumbent on them to and I hope that the future of the islands is clear beyond uphold the basic democratic rights of the people who doubt, as well as the ability and commitment of our live on the islands. May I press him further on a point Government to defend them from any threat that might that was made by my hon. Friend the shadow Secretary materialise. That is the basis, I hope, for a more stable of State? Does he feel that there is the appropriate level future for the islands in which a more diversified economy of intelligence gathering to enable him appropriately to can flourish, including the development of the oil and deploy the assets as best he can? gas sector.

Michael Fallon: I am sorry that I am not able to Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): The assurances discuss intelligence gathering. That is an important part that the Secretary of State has given today to continue of our assessment of the threat to the islands and an to defend the Falkland Islands will be welcomed by important part of the islands’ defence, but I am not able everyone on the islands, and they reflect the resolute to discuss in detail the arrangements for gathering determination shown by our former Prime Minister, intelligence about the threat. On the hon. Gentleman’s Lady Thatcher, when she stood at the Dispatch Box earlier point, it is important that the message goes out 33 years ago to give that same commitment. Does he from all parts of the House to the islanders—I thank agree that the threat from Argentina is still very real, the shadow Secretary of State again for this—that we and that we must never take down our guard and must respect their right to determine their future and that, always stand up for the freedom of those loyal British their having made that decision in the referendum, we subjects of the Falkland Islands? will continue to defend the islands. Michael Fallon: I completely agree that we should not drop our guard, and we are not doing that—if anything, Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): Does my right we are reinforcing our guard and the defence of our hon. Friend agree that the aim of a deterrent is to have islands. We have the right to defend the islands, and to sufficient force to meet any threat? Nothing better defend the right of the islanders to determine their exemplifies that point than the Falklands war itself, future. This is a defensive arrangement; it is not threatening when the decision to save £16 million by withdrawing anybody else. HMS Endurance led to a war costing billions of pounds and 255 British personnel. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): Mr Speaker, you and the House may be interested to Michael Fallon: As my hon. Friend may know, there know that I have a plaque on my wall, signed by my was an inquiry into the causes of the war, which was led great uncle when he was Speaker, commemorating the by Lord Franks. There has been much discussion since gift of a silver ashtray from the peoples and Government of the precise series of events that led up to the war. of the Falklands on the rebuilding of this Chamber That is history. Our job is to ensure that the islands are after it had been bombed during the war. Does that properly defended. I am confident that, following this demonstrate the deep and enduring friendship between 1313 Falkland Islands Defence Review 24 MARCH 2015 1314

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown] Cyber-security our two peoples, and does my right hon. Friend’s statement this morning demonstrate to the Russians, Argentines 1.43 pm and anyone else that if our interests are threatened throughout the world, we will respond? The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude): With permission, Mr Speaker, Michael Fallon: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for I will make a statement on the Government’s national the terms in which he put that declaration, and I hope cyber-security programme. there is no doubt about our determination to stand up Every day, the cyber threat is growing and we face to any kind of intimidation or threat to our territory or ever more sophisticated attacks. According to one survey, the rights of those who want to remain British. I hope 81% of large businesses and 60% of small businesses the message that will go out from across the House suffered a breach last year. Back in 2010 the coalition today is that we respect the right of the islanders in the Government identified cyber as one of four tier 1 decision they have taken to remain British. national security threats, and Britain has been among the fastest adopters of the digital economy. We are a Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): I welcome my right world leader in digital services, which are a key part of hon. Friend’s commitment to the defence of the self- our long-term economic plan. We cannot let our economic determination of British overseas territories such as the progress be undermined by those who would do us Falkland Islands. Does that prove that Her Majesty’s harm. No national Government can tackle the cyber Government were right to develop the new airport on threat alone, and international collaboration is central Saint Helena as an important air bridge to the south to our strategy, as is the closest partnership with the Atlantic? business community. In 2011 we published our cyber-security strategy and Michael Fallon: My hon. Friend is right: it was important have committed £860 million of funding over five years to take that decision and to reinforce the links between to the national cyber-security programme. That is to Saint Helena and the United Kingdom. The commitment ensure that Britain remains one of the safest places to of expenditure on the Mount Pleasant airfield enables do business online. Cyber-security skills are scarce, and us to reinforce the islands remarkably quickly should collaboration between Government, industry and academia any threat materialise. is essential to build the skills and expertise we need. Despite the huge budget deficit that we inherited, we have invested in our intelligence agencies and the National Crime Agency to build our capabilities to understand cyber threats and tackle cybercrime. GCHQ—often the object of poorly informed criticism—is home to a hugely impressive and patriotic collection of public servants, and I put on record my appreciation for the dedicated and highly skilled work they do to keep Britain safe. We have worked with business to establish the cyber essentials scheme to raise awareness of five basic measures to keep companies safe. That scheme is now mandatory for certain types of Government procurement, and today 88% of FTSE 350 companies have cyber-security firmly on their risk registers. We created the national computer emergency response team—CERT-UK—to respond to major cyber incidents, and it played a significant role in protecting the Commonwealth games and the NATO summit in Wales. Following the Prime Minister’s successful visit to the US, CERT-UK will be leading joint exercising with its American counterpart later this year. The cyber-security information sharing partnership, based within CERT-UK, provides a safe space for businesses and Government to exchange information and develop responses in real time. CiSP now has 914 members and reports on 215,000 abused IP addresses daily. Technology moves at an astonishing pace and we cannot stand still. Today I will set out further steps to keep us safe. Our new Cyber First scheme will be an elite development programme for the next generation of UK cyber-security talent. It draws heavily on Israel’s hugely successful Talpiot programme, which I saw first-hand on a visit to Israel in November. Talpiot provides the state of Israel with formidable cyber-security skills, and is also the seedbed for a fertile array of new businesses. Partly as a result, Israel now has more start-ups per capita than any other country. 1315 Cyber-security24 MARCH 2015 Cyber-security 1316

Initially we will pilot Cyber First with a few tens of to make a statement. Tomorrow he will make it a students. Each will receive £4,000 funding per year to hat-trick with his final Cabinet Office Questions. Clearly, study relevant undergraduate courses in science, technology, he wants to see as much of us all as possible before he engineering and maths. They will be required to work retires from this House. during summer vacations or years out, either within I pay tribute to the Minister for his work in the past Government or in leading UK cyber-security companies. five years as the Minister for the Cabinet Office and in Participation in this elite programme will carry a the many years he has served the public as a Member of commitment to work for the Government for at least this House. There are many things on which we disagree, three years before members start to see their financial for example how we should use digital government to support written down. This programme will be a vital empower people rather than cutting them off from pipeline of top-end cyber talent in the service of Britain’s services, but no one can doubt his dedication to public national security. service. Nor can we doubt the dedication of those who Cyber First is the latest in a series of initiatives work so hard to protect us, our nation, its citizens and building cyber skills, including new apprenticeships, businesses from cyber-attacks. I, too, would like to put and introducing cyber-security to the National Citizen on record my praise for the work done by the security Service and ensuring that it is included in relevant services, the police and all civil servants who work in courses leading to computing and digital qualifications this area. They do a vital job day in, day out to protect for 16 to 19-year-olds. We sponsor cyber competitions our cyber-infrastructure and digital footprints, and I in schools, as well as technical apprenticeships and commend their work. PhDs; we are building cyber-security into computer I am sure the Minister agrees with that sentiment. I science and computing degrees, and so far we have hope, therefore, that the Government will clarify how accredited six master’s degrees in cyber-security, created those who protect us in cyberspace will continue to do two new centres of doctoral training, three research so when the Chancellor is bent on reducing public institutes and 11 academic centres of excellence in sector spending to levels not seen since the 1930s, before cyber-security research. Two further universities—Kent there was even an NHS or a GCHQ. It is clear from the and Surrey—have today been awarded centre of excellence Office for Budget Responsibility and the Institute for status in cyber research. I can also announce the funding Fiscal Studies that, after the Chancellor’s Budget last of three UK-Israel cyber research projects. Similar projects week, unprotected Departments face huge cuts to meet with Singapore will follow later this year, and I look his spending plans and unfunded tax cuts. The Ministry forward to seeing the first cohort of joint UK-US of Defence, the police and social care services are under Fulbright cyber-security scholars before too long. threat. Can the Minister confirm whether the budget All that builds on our much broader work to improve for cyber-security will be protected, or are we to assume cyber skills, which has already seen 40,000 people enrol that because the Cabinet Office is an unprotected in the Open University cyber-security open online course. Department that this will not be the case? We have made good progress in developing digital and I welcome the new Cyber First pilot. Indeed, I was cyber skills more widely across the economy, and I privileged to launch the UK’s first MBA in cyber-security warmly commend the work that my hon. Friend the with Coventry university. The demand for cyber-security Minister for Culture and the Digital Economy has done experts is growing at 12 times the rate of the overall job and continues to do on that. market, so it is vital that we train and equip more people with cyber-skills. Small firms are the victims of For Government services, online safety is central. three quarters of all successful data breaches and are GOV.UK Verify, funded by the national cyber-security the most likely to suffer from a lack of cyber-skills. programme, is our world-leading identity assurance However, just as the Minister came late to the digital programme. I can announce today that we have put in inclusion agenda and then chose a strategy that excludes place a new contractual framework for identity providers 10% of our fellow citizens, he has come late to—indeed, that will increase choice for citizens who wish to prove neglected—cyber-security for small businesses. According their identity online. I will announce shortly the details to the Institution of Engineering and Technology, half of the additional identity providers. of all small and medium-sized enterprises have not even We have to worry about cyber-security because of the heard of the Government’s cyber-security efforts. What growth and development of the internet in the past 20 is the Minister doing to change that and to make small years. The internet has an amazing power to change businesses more cyber-aware? people’s lives for the better. Cyber is a huge opportunity, Crime is changing. It increasingly happens online, as well as a threat. Britain’s cyber-security sector is but the Government do not have a strategy to tackle it. worth more than £6 billion a year and employs some The cyber-security budget is overwhelmingly going to 40,000 people. We are on track to double cyber-security cyber-security and big businesses, leaving consumers to exports to £2 billion by next year. Our aim is to increase fend for themselves. The majority of the cyber-security that to £4 billion by 2020, and we will promote more budget goes into the single intelligence account, with regional clusters to support more British cyber-businesses. the police left a tiny amount to tackle a growing tide of We want Britain to benefit from the best digital economy online crime with an overall £2 billion cut in funding. in the world. Effective cyber-security is central to that The Home Affairs Committee highlighted the black success. I commend this statement to the House. hole where low-level e-crime is committed with impunity. What is the Minister doing to ensure that the police 1.50 pm have the resources they need in this area? I welcome the announcement of a new contractual Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): I framework for GOV.UK Verify. However, it was only in thank the Minister for advance sight of his statement. It October that the Government were predicting that hundreds is now twice in two days that he has come to the House of thousands would be verified by now. In fact, only 1317 Cyber-security24 MARCH 2015 Cyber-security 1318

[Chi Onwurah] The hon. Lady talked about digital inclusion, which she knows the Government take extremely seriously. We 50% of people are successful the first time they use the support the huge amount of work being done by businesses, service. The Minister says that details will be announced particularly Barclays and other companies, on digital “shortly”. Given that there are only a few days left activity to enable people currently excluded to be active before Parliament is dissolved, will he tell us exactly online, and that will continue to be the case. She also when he plans to announce the details? Specifically, will asked about mobile security on mobile devices, which is it include a public sector provider of identity assurance, obviously a serious matter. So far as the Government so that people can choose a provider they trust? are concerned, CESG, part of GCHQ, provides good Finally, the statement makes no mention whatever of guidance and is reckoned to be world leading on smart mobile. It has taken the Government five years not to devices. eradicate not spots, and they have ignored the gaping So far as citizens and consumers are concerned, she hole in cyber-security which is mobile device security, will be aware of our Cyber Streetwise campaign and particularly in the era of “bring your own” device. What Get Safe Online, which are about making sure people is the Minister doing specifically on mobile? know the risks. GCHQ estimates that 80% of successful I could not help but notice that the statement was cyber-attacks could be thwarted or mitigated by basic somewhat light on actual policy announcements. A internet hygiene, and for that awareness is important. I cynic might think that the Minister was rushing out a am less concerned about whether SMEs are aware of half-baked announcement to use up time. It is almost as what the Government are doing; I am more concerned if the Government are scrambling around for something that they are aware of what they need to do, which is to to say to give the impression that they have made real take basic steps on internet hygiene. progress in rising to what is one of the greatest challenges There is much more to do, and there will never be any of the digital era and one of the greatest opportunities scope for a Government or businesses to rest on their for UK business. The UK can lead in cyber-security as laurels. I found the hon. Lady’s objection that my we do in online commerce, but it will take skills for the statement was light on policy slightly startling. Quite many—small businesses and citizens, as well as big rightly, the Government have elevated cyber-security to businesses—not the few. It will take a Labour Government one of the four tier 1 national security threats, so we to ensure we have that. take it enormously seriously. At a time when we had to cut public spending, because of the appalling public Mr Maude: I am extremely grateful to the hon. Lady deficit inherited from the last Government, this was one for her very warm words at the beginning of her response, of the very few areas that we decided was sufficiently which I enormously appreciate. Parting is indeed such important to invest further money in, and we will sweet sorrow, but there is life beyond. continue to do that. I am afraid it tailed off a little bit after that. The hon. Lady talked about cuts and the potential for continued Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): A number funding for cyber-security in the next Parliament. She of Governments are known to have invested heavily in made the slightly odd suggestion that the trajectory of what might be termed “offensive cyber”. Given that we public spending would be at a level last seen in the must do everything we can to protect our own systems, 1930s. A little further research shows that the last time are there any messages we can send to such Governments this level of spending was seen was in 1999-2000 under about the consequences that would follow for them if a Labour Government. they were unwise enough to launch a cyber-attack against this country? So far as funding for cyber-security is concerned, that will be dealt with in the context of the spending review Mr Maude: I am well aware of what my right hon. that will take place after the election, but I do not know Friend says, and he is right to raise the matter. Our task anybody who believes there is any possibility that there is to ensure that our efforts on national security are will not continue to be very significant funding for provided with all the tools necessary for us to protect cyber-security. We are acknowledged across the world ourselves and deter attacks. as being in the lead in this area. There is always a danger when one says that of being thought to be Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): One of the aims of complacent. We are not remotely complacent. This is a the 2011 cyber-security strategy was to have the UK very fast-moving set of threats and we have to move more resilient to cyber-attacks and able to protect our equally fast to keep up with it. We need to be on the case interests in cyberspace. How well does the Minister feel all the time. that this has been achieved, and how does the news that The hon. Lady talked about the resources being 81% of firms suffered from cyber-attacks and breaches devoted to tackling cybercrime. The Under-Secretary of in the last year, as he said in his introduction, fit with State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the that strategy? Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley) who has responsibility for tackling cybercrime is in her Mr Maude: Awareness in the business world is much place on the Front Bench. She takes this matter immensely higher than it was—it was woefully low and remains so seriously. The National Cyber Crime Unit is based in in most parts of the world—partly as a result of the the National Crime Agency. A good proportion of the Government’s efforts. As a result, many more companies cyber-security programme is funding for the law are taking active steps to treat this seriously—not as enforcement agencies, which do fantastic work. I obviously something to be delegated to the IT department but as a echo her enthusiastic support for those who work to board-level risk to be understood and managed by the protect and preserve our national security, and I include board as a major risk to the business. We shall continue in that those in our armed forces active in this field. to drive home this message. 1319 Cyber-security24 MARCH 2015 Cyber-security 1320

Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): I congratulate want to operate. These are obviously delicate matters, my right hon. Friend on this important update. He but there is a lot of technology here, and I am happy to talked about clusters. He will know that one of the most say that Britain is very good at it. important cyber-security clusters in the UK is in world-class Worcestershire. One business he has visited there, Titania Chloe Smith (Norwich North) (Con): It has been an security, told me it was benefiting from a wide range of enormous privilege in this Parliament for me to serve Government help, including the apprenticeships scheme, with my right hon. Friend in his team at the Cabinet research and development tax credits and help with Office doing exactly this work. Will he update the exporting from UK Trade & Investment. Will he update House further on what he continues to do to keep our the House on how his Department could work with the critical national infrastructure safe? Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to ensure that our cyber-security industry is the most competitive Mr Maude: I am hugely grateful to my hon. Friend in the world? both for what she says and for the incredibly important work she did, particularly in taking the message about Mr Maude: It is very competitive. I know that my the need to strengthen cyber-security defences out to hon. Friend has given enormous support to the cyber-cluster the business community, which she did with her in Worcestershire. As a matter of historical accident characteristic energy and clarity. So far as the critical almost, there are many businesses in Great Malvern. national infrastructure is concerned, a huge amount of When I visited in 2012, there were 40 or so cyber-companies; work is already under way to continue to ensure that we there are now more than 80. This is very fast growing. understand the vulnerabilities. Obviously, the critical We help cyber-companies with exporting, and many of national infrastructure is not primarily owned by the them are doing it. I visited Titania, in his constituency, state—it is in private sector hands—so we need to and was hugely impressed by how many countries this understand the vulnerabilities and work with the owners relatively small company was selling its products to. of that infrastructure to ensure that the defences are as good as they can be. Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab): Cyber- security is a reserved matter, but will the Minister Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): I thank my right update the House on any conversations or meetings he hon. Friend for agreeing to meet Training 2000 and me has had with Police Scotland or the Scottish Government last October to discuss its plans to create an institute for on this matter? cyber-security in Pendle. Following that meeting, it has followed up the leads he provided, and I am delighted to Mr Maude: We obviously co-ordinate as much as say that it is now progressing with its ambitious plans to possible with the Scottish Government—my hon. Friend create the institute later this year, to improve local the Minister with responsibility for cybercrime could cyber-skills and apprenticeships in the area. Given the comment separately on any discussions the Home Office importance of this issue to many Lancashire SMEs, has with Police Scotland. The hon. Gentleman is right what more can his Department do to support such to imply that these matters require close co-ordination proposals? between Governments and law-enforcement agencies not just within the UK but much more widely, because Mr Maude: Let me first pay tribute to the work my cyber and the internet know no national boundaries. hon. Friend has done in this area. When I recently visited Pendle, I had the opportunity to discuss the Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): Following matter with him. There has been no stronger champion on from my right hon. Gentleman’s comments about of our potential to work with businesses to build the GCHQ staff, what did he make of the Business Secretary’s companies, the skills and the kind of centres for training comments that The Guardian Snowden publication was that he mentions. I am confident that he will be in a entirely correct and courageous, and will he outline his position to take this work forward over the coming five assessment of the effect that has had on the morale of years. our public servants at GCHQ? Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): Does the Paymaster Mr Maude: I happened to be visiting GCHQ shortly General agree that the excellent news about a new after my right hon. Friend made those remarks. The university technical college at Berkeley Green in my people who work at GCHQ do fantastic work—it is a constituency, providing skills and training in cyber, is centre of brilliant expertise and knowledge; they do perfectly timely in view of his statement and that it is difficult work away from the public gaze, and any likely to bring a real benefit to the Government comments that seem to undermine what they do in the Communications Headquarters? service of national security has to be strongly deprecated. Mr Maude: My hon. Friend is exactly right to draw Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): The Minister attention to that. We need to build these skills—and is right to pay tribute to the work of GCHQ and to build them early. The kind of college he mentions can prioritise cyber-security, which is very important for all play an incredibly important role in that, particularly, of us. He will be aware that a fundamental part of that as he says, in view of its proximity to Cheltenham and is good encryption, so will he encourage individuals GCHQ. We need to get to children earlier so that we and companies alike to push ahead with strong end-to-end can encourage more of them to specialise in these encryption, wherever possible? subjects. Under our Cyber First scheme, which I referred to in my statement, and in pursuit of the most gifted Mr Maude: Encryption is obviously important, but it students, we will absolutely look to find really gifted is for businesses to decide what level of encryption they students at a much younger age. 1321 Cyber-security 24 MARCH 2015 1322

Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): I welcome Point of Order yesterday’s launch by the Cabinet Office of the report into cyber-insurance, which hopes to make the UK the world capital of cyber-insurance in the marketplace. It 2.14 pm will not only give the UK insurance market the leading edge in order to become the world leader, but will Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): On encourage our small and medium-sized enterprises to a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can you take up cyber-insurance through the terms and conditions clarify the process that exists for a situation in which the of their insurance policy. hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) refuses to apologise to the Minister for Employment, Mr Maude: My hon. Friend is absolutely right to my right hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West draw attention to this. We have, I think, got ahead of (Esther McVey) for quoting someone who referred to the game by commissioning the work we have done her by saying, “Lynch the bastard”. If the hon. Gentleman jointly with the insurance industry. Cyber-insurance is a did not agree with remarks made by others that were in market in its infancy. Many businesses do not know effect inciting violence against a female MP, why on whether they are covered for damage and loss caused by earth did he repeat them to another audience? I had cyber-attacks. The fact that Britain excels in the insurance hoped that he would apologise before this House dissolves, market—London is the world’s centre of insurance—and but no apology has been forthcoming. that Britain is very good at cyber-security will enable us to become world leaders in this important area. The Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): I call sophisticated pricing of cyber-risk will be a huge stimulus, Mr John McDonnell to respond to that point of order. particularly to smaller businesses, to ensure that they have done what they can to protect themselves. I welcome John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): This the industry’s support, particularly for smaller businesses has been raised before, Madam Deputy Speaker, and it and SMEs, of the Cyber Essentials scheme as a kitemark was accepted by the House that I would in no way ever for taking the right steps to protect themselves. encourage violence or support violence against an hon. Member— [Interruption.] Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con) rose— Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): The John McDonnell: I therefore have nothing to apologise prize for patience goes to Mr Richard Graham. for. If a constituent shouts something out to an MP, that is a matter for the constituent. This is about the Richard Graham: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. right hon. Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey) I congratulate the Minister for the Cabinet Office on trying to make herself into a victim over this issue. The both his statement and his strong commitment to a real victims are people such as David Clapson who quiet revolution on our nation’s understanding of, and starved to death as a result of— support for, the cyber-industry. My right hon. Friend knows the important cluster in Worcestershire and Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. If the hon. Gentleman Gloucestershire, which now includes the future training is responding to a point of order, I must insist that he centre rightly mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member sticks only to that point of order. Has he finished his for Stroud (Neil Carmichael). Does my right hon. Friend response to this point of order? He may do so. agree that places such as the new cyber-centre in Gloucester, led by Raytheon with innovative partners employing John McDonnell: I was simply putting it in the context between 9,000 and 90,000 employees should encourage of the suffering that has been caused by the right hon. local universities such as the university of Gloucestershire Member for Wirral West— to play an important role in developing appropriate Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I have said to the courses for future skills in this sector? hon. Gentleman that he must limit his remarks to the substance of the point of order. I am allowing him to Mr Maude: My hon. Friend is completely right to do so and giving him plenty of opportunity to respond. draw attention to that and to emphasise the need for us We do not need the background information—just his to develop these skills early. These are scarce skills at the response. moment, but they do not need to be. We took steps early in the course of the coalition Government to start John McDonnell: The substance of the matter is that the process of building skills, and the kind of developments there is nothing to apologise for, and I hope that on to which my hon. Friend refers are a crucial part of 7 May the electorate will remove the stain of inhumanity— that. Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. It is not a matter for me to discuss the electorate on 7 May. It is disappointing that a matter such as this should have to come before the House. I thank the hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Mary Macleod) and the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) for giving notice of their intention to be here today to raise this point. Let me repeat what the Deputy Speaker said when the matter was raised in November—that what hon. Members say outside this place is not a matter for the Chair. 1323 Point of Order 24 MARCH 2015 1324

I would, however, strongly clarify—the hon. Lady Schools (Opportunity to Study for asked for clarification—that it is incumbent on all Members Qualifications) of this House, either within the Chamber or elsewhere, to act with courtesy to one another and, indeed, to Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order everyone else whom they might encounter. I understand No. 23) the hon. Lady’s particular concerns about reported comments suggesting violence—whether they were seriously 2.18 pm intentioned or not. I am quite certain, and I am sure the Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con): I beg to move, whole House will agree, that no hon. Member would wish to be associated with such comments. I urge hon. That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require the Secretary of Members concerned in this matter to consider that State to ensure that pupils in secondary education are guaranteed the opportunity to study for qualifications including triple science apology is not backing down; it is a courteous way of GCSEs and all English Baccalaureate GCSE subjects; and for settling a matter. One would hope that hon. Members connected purposes. of this House would wish always to act with such The past five years have witnessed a transformation courtesy. in the uptake of rigorous subjects at GCSE. It cannot be denied that the introduction of the English baccalaureate as a measure of performance has seen the percentage of pupils studying for English, maths, science, a modern foreign language and either history or geography rise from 22% in 2009-10 to 36% in 2013/14—and it is expected to rise above 40% this academic year. This is welcome news, for we know that in an increasingly competitive and outward-facing global world, qualifications matter. Even at 14, the choices that a pupil makes in choosing their GCSE options will have a critical impact on their future. Universities now take GCSE results and the subjects studied into close account, while the choice of certain GCSEs can have a limiting effect on a pupil’s ability to study certain subjects at A-level, which in turn can prevent access to the study of these subjects at university. Options at 14 are, in fact, a seismic moment in a pupil’s education, one on which their entire academic future and career may depend. Given how important the choice of GCSEs has become, and given the weight that is placed on them, one would expect that all pupils, regardless of where they were born, would—in today’s world—be given equal opportunities to study for qualifications that would decide their own future career paths. If pupils’ options are to be meaningful, they must also be given an equal and fair choice of subjects that is open to all. It is unacceptable that the subject choices and, as a result, the aspirations of many pupils are still being capped by a lack of subject provision in the schools that they attend. For many pupils, GCSE choices are little more than a modern-day Hobson’s choice: they are forced either to study certain subjects that their schools have deemed appropriate, or to study nothing at all. That is particularly true of the uptake of sciences at GCSE. For too long, a great educational divide existed between schools that offered only what was then called double science, and schools that gave their pupils a chance to study the three separate sciences—biology, chemistry and physics. For too long, that chance was mostly the preserve of pupils who were educated in the private or selective sectors, while those attending comprehensive schools were forced to accept second best. Over the past 10 years, rapid progress has been made in the raising of aspirations in every school. In 2004, fewer than 40% of secondary schools offered the three separate sciences, or triple science, at GCSE, whereas recently 87.5% of schools entered pupils for triple science. In 2010, the figure was 78.2%. Important work has been undertaken through schemes such as the triple science support programme, managed by myScience, which has helped 1,385 schools to increase 1325 Schools (Opportunity to Study for 24 MARCH 2015 Schools (Opportunity to Study for 1326 Qualifications) Qualifications) [Chris Skidmore] contacted the science, engineering and design and technology team at the Department for Education, I provision of the three sciences. Following the creation was informed that that was not the case, and that the of a national network of science learning centres which promise that had been made back in 2008 was not prepare teachers and technicians to meet the challenge “a legal entitlement. It was a commitment made by the last of providing the delivery of triple science, the number government but was never made statutory”. of pupils in state-funded schools taking triple science The Department further explained that there was no has increased by more than 45,500 since 2010. Across legal entitlement for pupils in any maintained school, the country, there have been individual success stories including the old specialist schools, to study triple science. of schools that have transformed their science provision. It was up to the school and the governing body to John Smeaton Academy, for instance, initially only decide what science qualifications should be offered. allowed its pupils to study science through a BTEC course, but some are now studying three separate sciences. Regardless of the improvements that have been made throughout the country—and I accept that here have Last month, however, the publication of the Open been fantastic improvements—the situation remains the Public Services Network’s “Lack of Options” report same. Pupils who are trapped in a school that does not underlined the challenge that we still face in aiming to offer triple science GCSE will be prevented from studying ensure that all pupils, regardless of where they live or the subjects that they wish to study, the subjects that what school they attend, are given equal opportunities could transform their future. Rather than that critical to study for the qualifications that may secure their choice being placed in the hands of pupils themselves, future. The report found that in just 41 of 149 local allowing them to choose their own destiny, it remains authorities did every school give pupils a chance to the case that the power to arbitrate over pupils’ lives study the three separate sciences. The variation was remains with the schools themselves. stark: in Sutton, 46% of pupils had chosen to enter triple science GCSE, compared with just 14% in Hull I propose that the law be changed, so that pupils can and a pitiful 11% in Knowsley, where, worryingly, only be given not only the entitlement that was once promised 51% of pupils took any kind of science GCSE to them, but what I call a “right to learn”. If a school is unable to offer triple science GCSE for whatever legitimate Although the report’s conclusions suggested that there reason—and I fully understand that the provision of was a strong correlation between areas of deprivation laboratories and specialist science staff is critical—it and the provision of triple science GCSE, it is important should have a duty to ensure that pupils are given the to note that a pupil’s own economic family background chance to study for those GCSEs elsewhere. I hope that did not necessarily act as a barrier to attainment. In such a duty would in itself act as a positive enabling Hammersmith and Fulham, the proportion of pupils force to help to end the “subject deserts” that are who were eligible for free school meals was similar to afflicting parts of the country, highlighting the fact that that in Knowsley—47%, compared to 51%—but 37% of the current situation must change. I hope that it would pupils were entered for triple science, compared to ensure greater collaboration between schools, driving 11% in Knowsley. The real difference between those two up further the number of pupils taking triple science authorities, however, involved the provision of triple GCSE. I have chosen science today because it is a science GCSE in schools. In 43% of schools in Knowsley, particularly pressing example, but an equal case can be not a single pupil was entered for triple science GCSE, made for other EBacc subjects. whereas every school in Hammersmith and Fulham offered the three separate sciences. I hope that in another decade we shall be able to look back—as I have today—to review the progress that Poverty of aspiration, which lowers horizons and schools have made, and to assess the further progress dims lights that should be burning brightly, still reaches that they must make if we are to ensure that pupils are into areas of our education system, and into places given the best start in life in an increasingly competitive where education is most needed to transform young world. However, I also hope that by then we shall have lives. We cannot continue to allow generation after relegated to history a world in which pupils’ educational generation of pupils to be let down simply because of chances, and the subjects that are offered to them, the accident of where they were born or what school depend on the part of the country in which they were they attend. In Bristol, my own local area, only 23.3% of born. The fact that pupils are still being denied an pupils were entered for triple science GCSE. A quarter opportunity to study for qualifications that are available of schools did not even offer the subject at GCSE. to others in state-funded schools is unacceptable, and Every single school did so in South Gloucestershire, nothing short of educational discrimination. This simple North Somerset, and Bath and North East Somerset. Bill would ensure that, while the fight to reduce inequality That contrast is simply unacceptable. of attainment must continue apace, we can at least end As a local MP, like many other Members to whom I the inequality of access and opportunity to study for have spoken, I have dealt with casework involving this qualifications that should be available to all. issue. A pupil whose ambition and aspirations were still burning wished to study the three separate sciences at 2.27 pm GCSE, with a view to studying medicine at university. She was informed by the school—which called itself a Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): I oppose the Bill specialist science school—that she would not be able to because, despite its title, I feel that the hon. Member for do so. After her parents visited my surgery, I investigated Kingswood (Chris Skidmore) has misunderstood the the case, under the impression that, in 2008, the previous nature of the risk that is posed to students who need to Government’s science and innovation investment framework study specific subjects. In blaming schools and teachers, had entitled all pupils who achieved a level 6 or above at he has ignored the imminent prospect of the withdrawal key stage 3 to study triple science at GCSE. When I of certain modern foreign language A-level subjects. 1327 Schools (Opportunity to Study for 24 MARCH 2015 Schools (Opportunity to Study for 1328 Qualifications) Qualifications) Students will have no opportunity to study for A-level the languages of the growing markets in south Asia, we qualifications in subjects such as Polish, Punjabi, Bengali will lose important outward-facing opportunities for and Hebrew, because the A-level examination board—the the British economy. only board that provides for those subjects—is planning Ofqual goes on to say: to withdraw the examinations in 2017. “We at Ofqual do not…seek to limit the curriculum. We do The Government have failed to do anything to prevent expect any GCSE, AS or A level to be of comparable demand”. the removal of Polish and Punjabi—the two languages It is saying that it needs the same number of entrants which, after English, are most spoken in this country— for each subject, but at the current rate of decline the from the A-level examination syllabus. In 1998, when number of entrants for Polish and French will be very such a move was last suggested, Members tabled an similar very soon, and I imagine that the number of early-day motion, and succeeded in preventing Edexcel entrants for Polish and German will be almost the same from ending the A-level examination in Polish. At that by the time the Polish A-level is abandoned. time, there were 100 students studying Polish A-level; The Government must use their power to direct Ofqual. now there are nearly 10 times as many, but the plan is The Ofqual response says that still to abandon the course. “we here at Ofqual make no judgements on what subjects ought When Ofsted last looked at the teaching of modern to be taught as part of key stages of the curriculum”. foreign languages, it produced a report in January 2011 and pointed out that A-level entries in modern languages Someone needs to take responsibility for making this increased slightly between 2007 and 2010, from 28,377 judgment, because it is clear that there are sufficient to 29,836. Since then there has been a depressing decline. examiners. The Polish University Abroad, which is based Entries for French are down 3,150 to 9,000, and entries in London, runs further education courses for BA graduates for German are down 1,300 to 3,750. There has been a in teaching Polish as a second language, and it does not significant increase in the number of students getting expect any shortage of suitably qualified examiners in qualifications in the minority modern foreign languages, the near future. which are the the very languages that will soon be If the hon. Member for Kingswood (Chris Skidmore) unavailable for examination. had focused his Bill on qualifications that students are So what did I do? I wrote to the AQA examination prevented from being able to obtain by Government board and Ofqual and they responded. I sent a copy to inaction, it could have enabled students to qualify in the Secretary of State for Education, who has not Polish, in Punjabi, in Hebrew, in Bengali—in all the responded. AQA said that languages that the examination boards are planning to abandon. If we abandon them, we cannot continue to “government changes to the exam system and qualifications depend on the fact that English is our greatest export as mean that only new GCSEs and A-levels accredited by the exams regulator, Ofqual, can be offered by awarding bodies”. the reason why our companies can succeed so well. We need to recognise that in order to compete in an increasingly In other words, it is pointing to Ofqual. globalised world, Britain needs access to all those languages, It also talks about the specific subjects I have raised: and if we just look backwards we will not obtain the “we will be faced with a number of challenges. We know it will wealth our country needs or give children the chance to become increasingly difficult to recruit sufficient examiners with get an A-level in a subject they will succeed in. assessment expertise to set and mark the four skills of reading, writing, speaking and listening.” The hon. Gentleman compared the approaches to learning in Hammersmith and Knowsley. I believe that I have spoken to a senior examiner in Polish and she one of the reasons why London education authorities assures me there is no difficulty in finding suitably are doing well in this regard is that London children qualified examiners in that subject, yet AQA is determined bring many languages to their schools—languages they to abandon it. It points out that only 983 students were are able to be examined in and succeed in. If somebody entered in the last year, but it has ignored the fact that has access to another language, they have insights that the Polish community, which is the biggest driver of the can strengthen all areas of their learning. We are about number of A-level entrants, is growing hugely. So this to deny an entire cohort of children that opportunity to short-sighted policy risks the children of the many be examined in modern foreign languages, and I wish thousands of Poles who have settled in Britain in the the hon. Gentleman’s Bill would sort out that problem, last years not being able to study the language. rather than the one he has talked about. Let us have a look at what Ofqual says. It says: Question put (Standing Order No. 23) and agreed to. “What is taught in schools up to Key Stage 4 is a matter for Ordered, Government. After this the offering will be demand led for the exam boards who are free (mostly) to develop qualifications at A That Chris Skidmore, Dr Sarah Wollaston, Henry level that they wish.” Smith, Neil Carmichael, Andrew Percy, Mr Dominic I want the Minister on the Treasury Bench, the hon. Raab, Nigel Adams, Mr Henry Bellingham, Richard Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton (Mr Gibb), Fuller, Christopher Pincher and Mrs Cheryl Gillan to make sure they are not mostly “free” to develop the present the Bill. qualifications they wish. Instead he should insist that Chris Skidmore accordingly presented the Bill. they develop the qualifications students need, because if Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on we do not study these modern foreign languages, including Friday 27 March, and to be printed (Bill 194). 1329 24 MARCH 2015 Business of the House (24, 25 and 1330 26 March) Business of the House (24, 25 and (a) proceedings on Second Reading shall be brought to a conclusion (unless already concluded) two hours after their 26 March) commencement; Motion made, and Question proposed, (b) when the Bill has been read a second time, it shall stand committed to a Committee of the whole House and, subject to That the following provisions shall have effect: sub-paragraph (c), the House shall immediately resolve itself into Sittings on 24, 25 and 26 March a Committee of the whole House on the Bill; (1) At today’s sitting and the sittings on Wednesday 25 March and (c) where relevant, when the Bill has been read a second time– Thursday 26 March– (i) proceedings on the Bill shall stand postponed while the (a) Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not Question is put on apply; any Procedure Resolution relating to the Bill and, in accordance (b) Standing Orders Nos. 83D to 83H and 83I(2), (3) and (6) with Standing Order No. 52(1) (financial resolutions in connection (conclusion of proceedings etc) shall apply to proceedings to be with bills), on any Money Resolution or Ways and Means Resolution taken in accordance with this Order, but with the omission of relating to the Bill; Standing Orders Nos. 83D(2)(c) and 83E(2)(c); (ii) on the conclusion of proceedings on any Procedure Resolution, (c) no notice shall be required of any Motion made by a Money Resolution or Ways and Means Resolution relating to the Minister of the Crown and any Motion made by a Minister of the Bill, proceedings on the Bill shall be resumed and the House shall Crown may be proceeded with, though opposed, after the moment immediately resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House of interruption and shall not be interrupted under any Standing on the Bill; Order relating to the sittings of the House; (d) proceedings in the Committee of the whole House shall be taken in the following order: clauses 66 and 67 and new Clauses (d) no Motion to alter the order in which proceedings on a Bill and new Schedules relating to value added tax; clauses 1 to 5 and are taken, to recommit a Bill or to vary or supplement the new Clauses and new Schedules relating to the charge to, the rates provisions of this Order shall be made except by a Minister of the of and the limits and allowances for income tax; clause 6 and new Crown and the Question on any such Motion shall be put Clauses and new Schedules relating to the charge to, and the main forthwith. rate of, corporation tax; remaining proceedings in Committee; Tuesday 24 March (e) if, on conclusion of proceedings in Committee, the Bill is (2) At today’s sitting– reported with amendments, the House shall proceed to consider (a) proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments to the the Bill as amended without any Question being put; Recall of MPs Bill (f) proceedings in Committee, any proceedings on Consideration and proceedings on Third Reading shall be brought to a conclusion shall be brought to a conclusion (unless already concluded) three (unless already concluded) six hours after the commencement of hours after their commencement; proceedings on Second Reading. (b) proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments to the (5) Paragraph (4) shall have effect notwithstanding the practice of Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill shall be brought the House as to the to a conclusion (unless already concluded) three hours after their commencement; intervals between stages of a Bill brought in upon Ways and Means Resolutions. (c) the Lords Amendments to the Small Business, Enterprise (6) At the sitting on Wednesday 25 March– and Employment Bill shall be considered in the following order: Nos. 34 to 62, 86, 132, 136 to 141, 1 to 33, 63 to 85, 87 to 131, 133 (a) any Lords Amendments or Lords Message in respect of any to 135 and 142 to 193; Bill may be considered forthwith without any further Question being put; (d) proceedings on the Motion in the name of Mr Chancellor (b) proceedings on any Lords Amendments or Lords Message of the Exchequer relating to approval for the purposes of section 5 in respect of any Bill shall be brought to a conclusion (unless of the European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 shall be already concluded) one hour after their commencement. brought to a conclusion (unless already concluded) one and a half hours after their commencement; (7) The start of any emergency debate under Standing Order No. 24 (Emergency debates) to be held at the sitting on Wednesday (e) proceedings on the Motion in the name of Secretary 25 March shall be postponed until the conclusion of the proceedings Theresa May relating to the draft Counter-Terrorism and Security at that sitting to which this Order applies. Act 2015 (Risk of Being Drawn into Terrorism) (Amendment and Guidance) Regulations 2015 and the Motion in the name of Thursday 26 March Secretary Chris Grayling relating to the Civil Procedure (Amendment) (8) On Thursday 26 March there shall be no sitting in Westminster Rules 2015 shall be brought to a conclusion (unless already Hall. concluded) one and a half hours after the commencement of (9) At the sitting on Thursday 26 March– proceedings on the first of those Motions; (a) proceedings on the Motion in the name of Sir George (f) any Lords Amendments or Lords Message in respect of any Young relating to the valedictory debate recommended by the Bill may be considered forthwith without any further Question Backbench Business Committee shall be brought to a conclusion being put; (unless already concluded) at 4.30pm; (g) subject to sub-paragraphs (a) and (b), proceedings on any (b) any Lords Amendments or Lords Message in respect of Lords Amendments or Lords Message in respect of any Bill shall any Bill may be considered forthwith without any further Question be brought to a conclusion (unless already being put; concluded) one hour after their commencement. (c) proceedings on any Lords Amendments or Lords Message in respect of any Bill shall be brought to a conclusion (unless (3) The start of any emergency debate under Standing Order already concluded) one hour after their commencement; No. 24 (Emergency debates) to be held at today’s sitting shall be postponed until the conclusion of the proceedings at that sitting (d) no debate shall be held in accordance with Standing Order to which this Order applies. No. 24 (Emergency debates); Wednesday 25 March (e) the Speaker shall not adjourn the House before a Message has been received from the Lords Commissioners. (4) Proceedings on Second Reading and in Committee, any proceedings on Consideration, and proceedings on Third Reading on the General Finance (No. 2) Bill shall be completed at the sitting on Wednesday (10) Standing Order No. 82 (Business Committee) shall not apply 25 March, as follows– in relation to any proceedings to which this Order applies. 1331 Business of the House (24, 25 and 24 MARCH 2015 Business of the House (24, 25 and 1332 26 March) 26 March) (11) In this Order, a reference to proceedings on or in respect of a “When will my right hon. Friend publish the draft changes to Bill includes a reference to proceedings on any Motion to alter the Standing Orders that will be necessary to implement English order in which those proceedings are considered and (except in votes on English issues?” paragraph (4)(c)) to proceedings on any Procedure Resolution, He replied: Money Resolution or Ways and Means Resolution in relation to those proceedings. “That is a party matter, rather than a Government matter, since there are different policies among the coalition parties. (12) If today’s sitting continues after 11.30 a.m. on Wednesday However, it is important to show the detail, so I intend later this 25 March, this Order shall have effect as if any reference to the month to set out how the proposal that I made earlier this week sitting on Wednesday 25 March or Thursday 26 March were a can be implemented in Standing Orders.”—[Official Report, 5 February reference to today’s sitting. 2015; Vol. 592, c. 426.] (13) If the sitting on Wednesday 25 March continues after 9.30 a.m. on Thursday 26 March, this Order shall have effect as if any I was very pleased with that response. Unfortunately, reference to the sitting on Thursday 26 March were a reference to nothing had happened by the end of February, so I the sitting on Wednesday 25 March. returned to the issue on 12 March, again during Business (14) If today’s sitting or the sitting on Wednesday 25 March questions. I said to my right hon. Friend: continues as described in paragraph (12) or (13), any business set “On 5 February at column 426 of Hansard, my right hon. down for consideration at the later sitting or sittings mentioned in Friend told me that he intended ‘later’ in February to set out the that paragraph may be considered at the continued sitting, draft changes to Standing Orders to implement English votes for notwithstanding the practice of the House which forbids the English laws. Why was he not able to meet his own target deadline bringing forward of an Order of the Day.—(Mr Hague.) of the end of February? May I seek an assurance from him that he will meet it before his final departure from this place?” 2.38 pm He responded: “My right hon. Friend the Member for North West Hampshire Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): I am (Sir George Young)”— glad to have the opportunity to participate in this debate, and I am disappointed that my right hon. Friend who I am pleased to see is in his place— the Leader of the House has not chosen to speak to this “asked about this last week. It is true that February has stretched very important motion. into March, and I am conscious of the commitment that was made to my hon. Friend, so I do intend to publish the proposed We are in a fixed-term Parliament. The Government Standing Order changes.”—[Official Report, 12 March 2015; have known for the best part of five years the date of Vol. 594, c. 413.] Dissolution, yet this motion is expressed in terms that Those changes to Standing Orders could be introduced suggest there is some sort of emergency requiring the in the form of a motion, no notice of which would be Finance Bill be considered tomorrow in all its stages in required, under the provisions of paragraph 1(c) of the a maximum of six hours. business of the House motion that we are now considering. It may well be that Opposition Members are indifferent I hope that I am not being unduly optimistic in asking to this, but having seen the Finance Bill, which was my right hon. Friend to confirm that that is indeed his printed only today for the first time, I notice that the intention, and that that is why he has included in the explanatory notes extend to some 258 pages. There are motion a reference to motions being able to be brought some 127 clauses covering 121 pages, and 21 schedules forward by Ministers of the Crown without notice. I covering a further 220 pages. It does not seem possible have not yet seen any record in the Official Report of a to do justice to those provisions on behalf of all the ministerial statement altering the commitments that my people who could be affected by the Bill by considering right hon. Friend has already made on English votes for it for only six hours and at relatively short notice. Given English laws, so I hope he will take this opportunity to that we knew that we were approaching Dissolution, I introduce the changes today. hope that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House This matter is topical, not least because a series of will explain why the arrangements were made in such a public petitions is due to be presented later today by a way as to allow so little time for the Bill. host of my right hon. and hon. Friends on the issue of In the past, as I recall, a shorter Finance Bill has been English votes for English laws. It would be a big mistake introduced at this stage, with provision for a second Bill if we were to enter the general election campaign without to be introduced after the general election to deal with having this matter properly clarified, at the very least in matters in more detail. In that way, it has been possible the form of a draft Standing Order attached to a to scrutinise the important changes that affect businesses motion brought forward by the Government without and individuals up and down the country. I fear that we notice. shall have no such opportunity this time. I should also like to tease out what my right hon. 2.44 pm Friend has in mind in paragraph 1(c) of the motion, which states: Mr Hague: The type of motion before the House is usual in the run-up to the end of a Parliament, and this “At today’s sitting and the sittings on Wednesday 25 March and Thursday 26 March…no notice shall be required of any motion facilitates the effective and efficient use of the Motion made by a Minister of the Crown and any Motion made time of the House in bringing this Session, and this by a Minister of the Crown may be proceeded with, though Parliament, to a satisfactory conclusion. My hon. Friend opposed, after the moment of interruption and shall not be the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) is quite right interrupted under any Standing Order relating to the sittings of to say that this Parliament is different from its predecessors the House”. in being a fixed-term Parliament. That is why there are Does one of the motions that he intends to bring so few Bills left to consider, and so few Bills moving forward under these provisions relate to the commitments between this House and the other place, at this stage. As he made to me and to the House in recent weeks? On is set out in the motion, we will go on to consider Lords 5 February, I asked him: amendments to two Bills, including the Modern Slavery 1333 Business of the House (24, 25 and 24 MARCH 2015 1334 26 March) [Mr Hague] Recall of MPs Bill Consideration of Lords amendments Bill, which is still before the other place, but they represent a small proportion of the legislative programme and there is no reason why this should not come to an Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): I must orderly conclusion. The motion provides for it to do so. draw the House’s attention to the fact that financial privilege is involved in Lords amendment 18. If the The one exception to the Bills that have been able to House agrees to that Lords amendment, Mr Speaker make such progress is of course the Finance Bill, to will ensure that the appropriate entry is made in the which my hon. Friend has referred. We have known for Journal. a long time that the Budget would take place six days ago on 18 March, which it duly did, and that a Finance Bill would therefore have to be considered in fairly short Clause 1 order between then and the Dissolution of Parliament. This is not an uncommon development. Those of us HOW AN MP BECOMES SUBJECT TO A RECALL PETITION who were here in 1992 will remember the Budget being PROCESS delivered only a couple of days before the Dissolution of Parliament, and that has happened on a number of 2.50 pm other occasions as well. That has often led to substantial The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education Finance Acts being introduced immediately after the (Mr Sam Gyimah): I beg to move, That this House Budget, as is the case here. I do not see any difference in agrees with Lords amendment 1. principle between those occasions and this one. Madam Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient Mr Chope: If my memory serves me correctly, a very to discuss the following: short Finance Act followed the Budget in 1992, with the main, substantive Finance Bill being brought forward Lords amendments 2 to 17, 21, 22 and 27. after the general election. Mr Gyimah: The amendments in this group relate to Mr Hague: It is true that there was a further Finance the circumstances that would trigger a recall petition. Act, but it is also true that many provisions were They were tabled by the Government in the House of included in the initial Finance Act, as far as could be Lords to ensure that the important changes made to the agreed with the Opposition. The present Opposition Bill in this House are reflected throughout the Bill, have not opposed—let us put it that way—the great ensuring that the legislation works in practice. The majority of the measures in this year’s Budget, and we Prime Minister made it clear that the Government have therefore been able to include a greater proportion would be open to Parliament changing and improving of it in the Finance Bill. As with any Bill, however, it this Bill, and that has happened. We had a free vote on will be for the House to reach its judgment in the amendments brought forward on Report, and I am normal way on the Finance Bill when we debate it pleased that the provisions have been strengthened as a tomorrow. My hon. Friend will be able to take part in result. those debates. We are providing the time that is available Honourable Members may recall that on Report in for the Finance Bill before the Dissolution of Parliament, this House, Members voted to add to the provisions in which must by law take place on 30 March, which is the Bill to trigger a recall petition following a conviction next Monday, so the time available to debate the Bill is for expenses-related offences under section 10 of the tomorrow. If my hon. Friend wants to tell Treasury Parliamentary Standards Act 2009, irrespective of sentence. Ministers that he wishes it was a smaller Finance Bill, The House also changed the second trigger so that a he will of course be able to do so during those debates. recall petition would be opened if an MP were suspended On my hon. Friend’s final question about paragraph on the recommendation of the Standards Committee 1(c) of the motion, the answer is a fairly comprehensive for 10 or more sitting days, rather than the 21 or more no. As I pointed out in my first answer that he read out sitting days in the original Bill. As only the lead amendments on a change to Standing Orders relating to English were moved at that time, the Government tabled votes on English laws, this is a party matter. It would be amendments in the House of Lords—amendments 1 to possible to lay a Government motion under the provisions 6, 8, 9, 12 to 15, 17, 21 and 22—which are required to of paragraph 1(c) only if such a motion had been give full effect to the changes. agreed across the whole coalition. My hon. Friend is Amendment 7 gives effect to an amendment agreed in well versed in these matters, and he will know that the this House to ensure that offences committed before the policy on this issue is not agreed across the coalition Act comes into force can trigger the opening of a recall and that it therefore remains a party matter. It is therefore petition so long as the conviction and sentencing take not for me, as Leader of the House in the Government, place after the Act comes into force. Amendments 10 to publish any such proposed changes to Standing and 11 further define the allowable appeal period in the Orders; I could do so only as a Conservative party case of a conviction that would trigger the opening of a spokesman. It remains my intention to do so, but not as recall petition under the first or third recall condition. Leader of the House. That ensures that an MP has the opportunity to appeal Question put and agreed to. against a conviction, but that the recall petition process can also begin in a timely manner. Amendment 27 is a technical amendment, clarifying the definition of “overturned on appeal”. Amendment 16 corrects a minor oversight, by removing the requirement for the courts to inform the Speaker of a sentence that would 1335 Recall of MPs Bill24 MARCH 2015 Recall of MPs Bill 1336 lead to recall if the person in question had already very pleased to see that the Government have accepted ceased to be an MP—in such circumstances, it is clearly them in the Lords, so I will not need to say anything no longer necessary for the Speaker to be informed. about them when we get to the next group. The amendments in this group are therefore largely consequential and technical, and give proper effect to Mr Gyimah: With the leave of the House, Madam changes that were made with considerable support in Deputy Speaker, let me say, as I said in my opening this House. I look forward to the debate on these remarks, that these amendments are sensible modifications, amendments, which I commend to the House. ensuring that the Bill works effectively. I hope the House will support them, I am grateful for the Opposition Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op): spokesman’s comments on them and I commend them We welcome and support these Lords amendments. On to the House. Report, it was a Labour amendment that added a third Lords amendment 1 agreed to. recall condition of conviction for an offence under Lords amendments 2 to 17 agreed to. section 10 of the 2009 Act, so we particularly welcome these amendments from the other place. As the Minister said, they are minor and technical amendments, but Clause 7 they ensure the Bill will work by making this third recall condition fully operational. WHERE AND FROM WHEN THE RECALL PETITION MAY BE The group also contains helpful amendments concerning SIGNED the second recall condition. For example, when an MP is suspended from the House, the report of the Committee The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Tom on Standards which precedes the House of Commons’ Brake): I beg to move, That this House agrees with order for a suspension must relate specifically to that Lords amendment 18. MP, not to general behaviour. As the Minister said, the House of Lords has also tidied up certain elements of Madam Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient the Bill. Amendment 7 ensures that a recall petition can to consider the following: be brought for offences committed before the day on which the Act comes into force, so long as the conviction Lords amendments 19, 20, 23 to 26 and 28 to 32. and sentencing took place after that date. Tom Brake: The amendments in this group relate to Amendment 10 ensures that the third recall the way in which recall petitions will be run. They pick condition—on conviction for an offence and sentencing— up on a number of points made in debates in both would begin once all relevant appeals had been determined. Houses and are designed to make improvements to the That is a sensible but important provision. Other operation of the recall petitions for the benefit of amendments make welcome technical changes to tidy constituents, administrators and campaigners. The up the proposed legislation. Amendments 23 to 25 amendments also ensure that the Electoral Commission would remove the power of the Speaker to appoint a plays a greater role in reporting on the operation of person to exercise the Speaker’s functions under the Bill recall petitions in practice. I will describe the amendments in his or her absence, and instead allow the elected briefly and will also address the more technical amendments Chairman of Ways and Means or Deputy Chairman of that form part of this group. Ways and Means to do so if the Speaker is unable to perform them. As the Minister explained, these are Amendments 18 to 20 relate to constituents’ engagement technical and consequential amendments, and the with and access to the recall petition process. Lords Opposition are happy to give them our support. amendment 18 increases the number of signing places that the petition officer can designate from a maximum Mr David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): I rise of four to a maximum of 10. This amendment addresses to support the amendments, such as they are, from the concerns expressed during previous debates in this House House of Lords. They clearly strengthen the Bill in a and the House of Lords about accessibility for constituents minor way. Members may recall that we expended a fair living in rural areas who may wish to sign the petition in amount of time and effort trying to strengthen the Bill person. In setting the number at 10, we consulted the in a more concrete way when it was before this House Electoral Management Board for Scotland and the by giving access to a non-parliamentary route for recall. returning officers for the Western Isles and for Argyll I am sad that we did not find a solution acceptable to and Bute. They were clear that a limit of four could both Houses to enable that to happen. Having said that, pose particular challenges in large rural constituencies I do not agree with the argument that it would be better or in constituencies with a number of islands, and felt not to have a Bill at all. This Bill is a substantial step that a raised limit would afford them helpful flexibility. forward. It does not go as far as I would like, but I recognise that if we have it in place and it receives Royal 3pm Assent, as I assume it will, there is a substrate on which The increase in the maximum number of signing we can build—not me, but successor Parliaments—in places has enabled the Government to consider whether order to provide a more acceptable position for the a reduction in the signing period would be sensible, future. given the improved access to the signing process. Having As the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby considered the issue carefully, the Government brought (Stephen Twigg) mentioned an amendment in the next forward Lords amendment 19, which reduces the signing group, I hope you will afford me the latitude of saying, period from eight to six weeks. That means that the Madam Deputy Speaker, that amendments 23 to 25 constituents and the MP in question would get the were ones that I tabled originally in this House. I am result of the petition much quicker than we originally 1337 Recall of MPs Bill24 MARCH 2015 Recall of MPs Bill 1338 proposed. A slightly shorter period will have practical of a novelty for the Opposition to see the Government benefits for the administration of petitions and means so readily accept amendments during the progress of that campaigners do not need to sustain their activities this Bill. over quite so long a period. During the Bill’s progress through the House of Lords, The increase in the number of signing places and the noble Lords expressed their concern, which the Government reduction in the signing period strikes the right balance share, that the rules for regulating the campaign must between tightening the process and enabling proper function in practice. These amendments will require the access to signing. It allows sufficient time for electors to petition officer to forward all recall petition returns to consider the campaigns for and against signing a petition the Electoral Commission. That will support a further and enables those who wish to sign by post to make an amendment requiring the Electoral Commission to produce application. a report after every recall petition. That alters the original provisions in the Bill, which required the Electoral Lords amendment 20 improves the final sentence of Commission to report only on its own initiative. the wording to appear on the petition signing sheet, making it easier for electors to understand that, if fewer The Electoral Commission’s report will look at how than 10% of the registered electors in a constituency the provisions of the Act, including the rules on spending sign a petition, the MP will not lose his or her seat and a and donations, operated in practice at each petition. It by-election will not be held. has indicated that automatically receiving the spending and donation returns will allow it to examine and Members will remember that my right hon. Friend report on whether the current spending limits and the Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath) registration thresholds seem appropriate for recall events, tabled an amendment on Report to improve the wording and whether they prevent undue influence over the on this point, and, having reflected on the helpful outcome of these processes. contributions made in debate on that amendment the Government brought forward a comparable amendment. In drafting this Bill, the Government have sought to ensure that, in the event of a recall petition taking place, Amendments 23 to 25, which relate to clause 19, make the process is fair to all participants, that participation provision for the recall process to start if the Speaker is is encouraged and that wealthy campaigners cannot unable to perform his duties as set out in the Bill. have an undue influence. Clause 19, when originally drafted, mirrored existing legislation in permitting the Speaker to appoint a deputy Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) to carry out those functions. (PC): I have listened with great interest to what the During the debate in this House, the question of Minister has to say. Does not Lords amendment 19, whether that is necessary was raised, as we now elect the which reduces the period during which the recall petition Chairman and Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means. would be available for signing from eight to six weeks, The amendments update the Bill to reflect that important make it far more likely that an MP under the recall change in the House’s arrangements by making it clear mechanism is far more likely to survive the process? that, where the Speaker is unable to perform his functions under the Bill, they will transfer automatically to the Tom Brake: We had to strike a balance between the Chairman or Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means. I number of signing places and the number of weeks that thank my right hon. Friend for flagging up that matter a petition was available. We felt that, following the during earlier debates. On behalf of everyone here, let discussions that had taken place in both Houses, the me say that his expertise in this area will be greatly idea of providing a maximum of 10 signing places and missed in the next Parliament. allowing six weeks was an appropriate compromise. It is Amendment 24 clarifies that the Speaker will be always worth reinforcing the point that postal voting is unable to carry out his functions if he is himself the available, which makes the petition process and the subject of a recall petition, in which case the function recall process quite open and acceptable. would pass to the Chairman or Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means. Jonathan Edwards: In the Minister’s opening remarks, he coupled Lords amendment 18 with Lords amendment Briefly, Lords amendment 26 was made in response 19. Would it not be better for Lords amendment 18 to to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform say a “minimum” of 10 rather than a maximum of 10? Committee’s report on the Bill. A power to amend the Act through secondary legislation was originally included Tom Brake: That is a subject of debate. If the returning to allow it to be easily updated with regard to reforms of officer in the constituency of Argyll and Bute, which existing electoral law, such as the move to individual has, I think, more islands than any other constituency, electoral registration. Those reforms were outstanding felt that 10 signing places was appropriate, it is difficult at that point but have now been made. There is therefore to envisage circumstances in which more than 10 would no longer a need for the power to amend the Act itself be required anywhere else in the country. There can through regulations. Amendment 26, therefore, removes always be a debate on whether that is the appropriate this power in accordance with the Delegated Powers number. I hope that returning officers will ensure that, and Regulatory Reform Committee’s recommendation. for their particular locality, the right number is chosen. Lastly, Lords amendments 28 to 30 and 32 relate to I suspect that in my patch, if ever there were to be a the role of the Electoral Commission in the recall recall petition in Carshalton and Wallington, two or process. The amendments build on those tabled by the three signing places would be the maximum required, as Opposition on Report in the House of Lords. The the constituency size is only about four by five miles. Government are grateful to the Opposition for their However, I have to say that such a petition will not be support on Third Reading. It must have been something required in my constituency. 1339 Recall of MPs Bill24 MARCH 2015 Recall of MPs Bill 1340

With these amendments, the Electoral Commission Lords amendment 26 is welcome. It removes the will be able to review every recall petition process to power for the Act itself to be amended by regulations. help ensure that the spending and donations rules are Lords amendment 32 is especially welcome and important working in line with the principles. Lords amendment as it requires the Electoral Commission to produce and 31 corrects a minor and technical cross-reference in publish a report on the recall petition process after the schedule 5 to the Bill. end of the petition period in relation to each recall I look forward to a short debate on these amendments, petition. That is important because it enables us to which I commend to the House. learn from the process as it develops. This is a new and innovative feature of our political system. It is good that the Electoral Commission is tasked with producing Stephen Twigg: Let me start by apologising to the and publishing such a report, so that we can learn House, particularly to the right hon. Member for Somerton lessons from each petition and, if necessary, make changes and Frome (Mr Heath), that I was a little ahead of to improve public access to the process. myself in addressing amendments 23 to 25, which are in I agree that the Bill has been improved through the the second grouping. I echo what the Deputy Leader of stages of scrutiny in this place and in the House of the House said by way of tribute to the right hon. Lords. I believe it will play a part—probably quite a Gentleman for his record of work in this House. He has modest part—in improving the accountability of Parliament sought not only to work for his constituents but to and Members of Parliament, and therefore play a small reconnect the House with the public, which is an important role in renewing our political institutions. challenge for all of us. The second group of amendments significantly improves Tom Brake: With the leave of the House, Madam the original legislation. As the Deputy Leader of the Deputy Speaker. The amendments follow thorough scrutiny House has said, Lords amendment 18 would increase in both Houses and will improve the operation of recall the number of places that the petition officer could petitions by encouraging participation and ensuring designate in their constituency for signing the recall public confidence in the outcome. I thank hon. Members petition, from a maximum of four to a maximum of 10. on both sides of the House for their constructive scrutiny That is welcome and should ensure that accessing a of the Bill. I believe the Bill will provide our constituents petition is not an overly difficult process for constituents. with a further means of holding us to account—beyond Amendment 19 would reduce the length of the period the greater means that happen on 7 May—in the form during which the recall petition is available, from eight of an additional tool that can be used where Members to six weeks. We support that as it is combined with an of Parliament have committed serious wrongdoing. I increase in the number of signing places. Taken together, commend the amendments to the House. those amendments allow for easy access to the petition Lords amendment 18 agreed to, with Commons financial while giving a realistic time scale for the collection of privileges waived. signatures. Lords amendments 19 to 32 agreed to. 1341 24 MARCH 2015 Small Business, Enterprise and 1342 Employment Bill Small Business, Enterprise and prospective tenants will not have the right to the market Employment Bill rent only option, they will have the protection of the parallel rent assessment, so that they can judge if the Consideration of Lords amendments. tied deal they are being offered is fair. PRA will also be available to existing tenants and, through secondary Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): I must legislation, will be streamlined with the MRO process. draw the House’s attention to the fact that financial privilege is involved in Lords amendments 85, 123 and Amendment 40 sets out the procedure for the market 133. If the House agrees to any of these amendments, rent only option and provides that the pubs code must Mr Speaker will cause an appropriate entry to be made specify a reasonable period for the two stages of the in the Journal. process. The first stage is where a tenant and their pub company try to agree a rent, and the second involves the determination of a market rent by an independent Clause 41 assessor. Amendment 41 provides the powers to enable the adjudicator to resolve disputes over matters such as THE PUBS CODE the proposed MRO agreement, the independent assessor’s determination of the market rent, and whether the 3.12 pm MRO procedures have been followed. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, The original MRO clause included triggers for MRO Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson): I beg to move, That upon the sale of a pub or the administration of a this House agrees with Lords amendment 34. pub-owning company. In discussions with stakeholders, it became clear that it was not the fact of sale or Madam Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient administration itself that was a concern; rather, it was to discuss: Lords amendments 35 to 62, 86, 132 and 136 the potential for a pub sale, whether as part of an to 141. administration or in the normal course of business, to Jo Swinson: Part 4 of the Bill will introduce a statutory result in adverse consequences for the tenant. After code and an independent adjudicator to regulate the extensive consultation and discussion with stakeholders relationship between large pub companies and their tied and debate in the other place, amendment 47 extends tenants. It will address problems about which many the protections of the code—apart from the market rent hon. Members and the Select Committee on Business, only option—to tenants whose pub is sold by a code Innovation and Skills have been concerned for a number company to a company outside the statutory code. of years. To deter avoidance and ensure fairness we are also The House will remember that, on Report in this continuing code protections—excluding the market rent House in November, a market rent only option for tied only option—until the next rent review for the tied pub tenants was added by way of a vote. In the other tenants of pubs owned by a code company which, by place, my noble Friend Baroness Neville-Rolfe confirmed selling a number of their other pubs, falls below the the Government’s acceptance of the will of this House, threshold of 500 tied pubs. Those tenants too would so we have before us a Bill that honours that commitment have continuing rights and expectations regarding their and remains true to the spirit and intention of the existing lease and the protections they should have amendment introduced by this House on Report. For under the statutory code, and they should not lose their example, MRO must be provided for by the code, it protections because of events beyond their control. must set out reasonable time scales for the process, and We believe that this is a proportionate and targeted it must include certain MRO triggers. Government protection. It will last until the next rent assessment or amendments 39, 40, and 41 amend the original clause 42, the end of the tenancy, whichever comes first. MRO which was introduced by my hon. Friend the Member will not be extended, and nor will the investigation for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland). I take this powers of the adjudicator. Investigation powers are not opportunity to pay tribute to his dedication to this continued because they are designed to uncover systemic cause, his relentless campaigning for the rights of tied breaches of the code. It would not be right to include in tenants, and his willingness to move forward. The way that power companies that are obliged to follow the he has worked and championed the measure with MPs code only because some of the pubs they own used to from both sides of the House, with the all-party group belong to a code company, and that are covered by the and with campaigners up and down the country is a real code only in respect of those pubs. However, the arbitration testament to what can be achieved by someone with powers of the adjudicator do remain, so those tenants vision and determination. will be able to refer any allegations of a code breach The amendments ensure that MRO is workable within during the extension period to the adjudicator. the approach taken in part 4, is legally robust, and avoids unintended consequences. They are split into Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): What three clauses for clarity, one setting out a clear framework would the penalty be for any breaches? for the MRO option, one making provision for the procedures needed to deliver it, and one providing for Jo Swinson: The adjudicator will be able to make the adjudicator to resolve disputes. recommendations so that problems can be put right, Amendment 39 provides tied tenants with the right to and ultimately it will have the power to levy fines. The a market rent only agreement at a number of trigger specific details will be set out in secondary legislation, points: at a rent review, at lease renewal, when there is a but we have a model in the Groceries Code Adjudicator. significant and unexpected price increase, or if an event That adjudicator is already working, and we are learning occurs that is outside the tenant’s control and has a from it how such a system can work smoothly in terms significant impact on the tenant’s trade. Although of staffing, for example. 1343 Small Business, Enterprise and 24 MARCH 2015 Small Business, Enterprise and 1344 Employment Bill Employment Bill Amendments 43, 44, 45, 55, 132 and 139 are Minister announced in the other place that the Government consequential technical amendments to the MRO will use the power in clause 68 to exempt genuine amendments. They relate to the enforcement of the franchises from the MRO provisions. The remaining code, the adjudicator’s annual report, the list of defined code protections—for example, in respect of terms in clause 69 and to commencement. transparency—will still apply. The original market rent only clause allowed brewers Given the differences between traditional tied pubs that own tied pubs to require their MRO tenants to and genuine franchise agreements, we consider this a continue to sell the brewery’s products, as long as the reasonable exemption. We will consult on the precise tenant may buy them from any source. Amendment 46 definition of “genuine franchise”, but we expect it to implements that intention by amending clause 65 so include criteria such as where a turnover fee rather than that such a stocking requirement in a tenancy agreement a rent is paid by the tenant and the share of the profit is would not of itself make the pub a tied pub. In stakeholder unaffected by the price paid for tied products. This is discussions, brewers requested greater clarity on what important as these criteria can mean that the tenant’s they were permitted to do under a stocking requirement; interests are arguably more aligned with those of the others were concerned that the stocking requirement pub company because both rely on a fixed proportion might lead to undue restrictions on tenants who have of turnover. The tenant in such circumstances does not chosen MRO. face the combination of the wet and dry rent, as tenants Amendment 46 clarifies that brewers may also protect do in traditional agreements. their route to market by allowing some restrictions on There are other agreements in the industry which the sales of competitors’ products in their MRO pubs. may be marketed as a pub franchise that display elements However they will not be able to require that these pubs common to franchises in other sectors, such as common sell only their products and they will need to satisfy branding. But if they charge tenants a tied rent in the themselves that the requirements they are imposing are traditional way, they are not inherently fairer than a compliant with competition law. The restrictions may tied pub agreement. The consultation will allow us to be placed only on beer and cider products and, crucially, set out the criteria for a genuine franchise. tenants must be able to buy the brewer’s products from In addition, I should clarify that where a franchise any source. pub falls within the definition of a tied pub in clause 65, it will count towards the number of tied pubs that a Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): In the event of company owns for the purposes of the 500 tied pub marketing arrangements which meant that the only threshold. This will ensure that we do not create a place that beers could be purchased was direct from the loophole in the legislation. Furthermore, the Government brewer, do the provisions take account of the fact that would be able to amend the regulations should there be the tenant’s right to do so might be difficult to put into attempts to use this exemption as a means of avoiding practice? the legislation. Next, I come to the matter of investment. Hon. Members will recall that Government committed to Jo Swinson: The adjudicator could look into whether avoiding unintended consequences in introducing this practices were all fair and whether the code had been legislation. In the other place, and in discussions with properly complied with. Depending on the circumstances, stakeholders, concerns were raised as to whether investment competition law may also be relevant. The companies in tied pubs could be discouraged because of uncertainty would have to assure themselves that any restrictions as to whether a tied tenant might trigger MRO. Views that they were placing were compliant with competition vary as to the extent of this risk to investment, but the law. Through the new code and the adjudicator we will Government consider that we should act to minimise make sure that there is somebody who can look into the any risk. We want to ensure that investment in pubs can circumstances and arbitrate on whether what is being take place and that pubs thrive. I am sure that sentiment offered is fair and compliant with the statutory code. is shared across the House. For completeness, I shall touch on three other important The Bill as drafted does not prevent pub companies areas of debate both here and in the other place where from issuing a tenant with a new lease alongside an the Government have made important commitments to offer of investment, and no amendment to the Bill is use existing powers in the Bill. On Report in this House, necessary to enable companies to do so. This would, in I committed to consider calls to exempt genuinely short- effect, provide a waiver from the rent review and renewal term agreements from the pubs code. My noble Friend MRO triggers for five years. However, the Government Baroness Neville-Rolfe confirmed that the Government recognise that significant investments may warrant a would use the power in clause 68 to exclude from the longer period of return on investment. My noble Friend code tied pubs that are operated on short-term tenancy the Minister therefore announced in the other place at will and temporary agreements that do not extend that the Government will use existing powers in clause beyond a certain limited period. We intend to consult 41 to set out in the code different rent assessment on the length of the period for exemption. periods for different amounts of substantial capital Hon. Members will remember that pub franchise investment offered. This will have the effect of deferring agreements are in scope of our measures. They are, after the rent assessment trigger for MRO for a longer period. all, tied pub agreements and share many of the It is important to note, though, that the other MRO characteristics of traditional tied pubs. Nevertheless, triggers—that of a significant price increase and an consistent calls have been made in both Houses to economic event that impacts on a tenant’s trade—will exempt certain franchise agreements from the code, or remain throughout the deferral period. at least from MRO, if they do not charge rent and the Alongside setting out the deferral periods for different price of products does not affect the tenant’s share of levels of investment, the secondary legislation will set income. After much consideration, my noble Friend the out important safeguards for tenants—for example, to 1345 Small Business, Enterprise and 24 MARCH 2015 Small Business, Enterprise and 1346 Employment Bill Employment Bill [Jo Swinson] vested interests. It is important that protections are in place to ensure that everybody can have confidence in ensure that they accept an investment offer only after the staff who are seconded, and to ensure that up-to-date taking proper advice and that they cannot be pressurised. experience of industry does not entail a conflict of This is an area where both sides of the debate recognise interest. that the need to enable investment and the need to On amendment 86 and the important matter of pay protect tenants must go hand in hand. It is important transparency, I am delighted to reiterate the Government’s that we can consult fully on the details so that we get support for this amendment to the employment part of it right. the Bill that was introduced in the other place. We have These commitments regarding exemptions for certain already legislated in this Parliament to ensure that tenancy at will, temporary and franchise agreements, companies which directly discriminate against women and for a deferral of MRO in return for substantial in pay matters can be required by a tribunal to complete investment, are not on the face of the Bill. They will be a gender pay audit, as well as to pay compensation. The set out in secondary legislation after full public consultation. new provision requires the next Government to make Finally, I shall touch briefly on a number of technical regulations under section 78 of the Equality Act 2010 amendments in this group before turning to the second within 12 months of the Bill receiving Royal Assent. issue in the group. Amendments 34 to 37 are technical Section 78 requires mandatory reporting of gender pay clarifications to the “no worse off” and “fair and lawful information by larger companies. dealing” principles. The key change is to make it clear It is 45 years since the Equal Pay Act, and although that tied pub tenants should not be worse off than they the gender pay gap is at its lowest ever level and has would be if they were not subject to any product or been virtually eliminated for full-time workers under service tie. Amendments 35, 36, 38, 42 and 48 to 54 are the age of 40, it is simply not acceptable that in 2015 we consequential on the changes made to clause 66 in this still have a gender pay gap at all. We are determined to House to exclude family brewers from the provisions. eliminate it entirely. This change means the legislation will apply only to a pub-owning business with 500 or more tied pubs. There Toby Perkins: I endorse what the Minister says about are further minor technical amendments, on which I the need to deal with this matter urgently. Given that refer honourable Members to the explanatory notes for urgency, will she explain why the provision she is now a fuller explanation. bringing forward under the Equality Act 2010 has been Finally, amendments 136, 137, 138, 140 and 141 sitting on the statute book for five years? Why is it that relate to adjudicator staffing and the point that I made only at the fag end of this Parliament are we seeing earlier in response to the hon. Gentleman. They amend some action, which the Opposition have been calling for schedule 1 to enable the adjudicator to second staff throughout those years? from any source, in addition to the existing power in the Bill for the adjudicator to second from the public sector. Jo Swinson: The hon. Gentleman says that the Opposition The aim is to provide the necessary flexibility for the have been calling for this throughout this Parliament, adjudicator to find suitable staff from a wider pool. but unfortunately that was not the case when they were in government. I refer him to the Hansard report of I am sure the House will agree that throughout our proceedings on the Equality Bill on 24 June 2009, when debates in both Houses all the pubs measures have been the then Labour Minister said that thoroughly scrutinised. Incorporating the market rent only option into the Bill in the limited time available to “having mandatory arrangements in force by 2011 would run the risk of riding roughshod over the legitimate voice of both sides of us and ensuring that it will work in practice has not the business community. Progress can better be made by bringing been easy, but I believe that we have produced legislation employers with us—by including, encouraging and cajoling, rather that promises to be effective as well as targeted and than compelling.” proportionate. Crucially, these measures mark an historic My right hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey and moment for tied tenants of pub-owning companies. Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone) responded: They will have the protections of a statutory code with “We cannot wait another four years…It is clear that we must a powerful and independent adjudicator to enforce that take action now”.––[Official Report, Equality Bill Public Bill code. That the measures have the support of my hon. Committee, 23 June 2009; c. 410-432.] Friend the Member for Leeds North West (Greg We have got agreement in the Government to take that Mulholland), CAMRA, Fair Pint and others is a testament forward, but I have to say that the context of the to that, so I hope the House will agree to the amendments. commitments made from this Dispatch Box by the previous Labour Government during the passage of the Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): I understand Equality Act—they committed to a voluntary approach that the provisions on staff secondment require the before implementing the legislation—certainly did not Secretary of State’s approval. Can my hon. Friend give make that easier. None the less, I am delighted that we the House an example of the circumstances in which a arenowwhereweare. Secretary of State might refuse such approval?

Jo Swinson: Clearly, the intention is to make sure that 3.30 pm the adjudicator is able to recruit staff with the requisite We have of course been taking action over the past expertise and experience, not only from the public sector few years. Our Think, Act, Report initiative has created pool. That is an important change and we have learned a powerful community of companies that are leading from the legislation that we have in place for the Groceries the way on gender equality. More than 275 companies Code Adjudicator. Understandable concerns were raised covering more than 2.5 million employees are now in Committee about whether staff would come with taking action and sharing best practice on how they 1347 Small Business, Enterprise and 24 MARCH 2015 Small Business, Enterprise and 1348 Employment Bill Employment Bill recruit, promote and retain female talent in their commitment to using their immense influence within organisations. However, too few have voluntarily published the business world to advance women’s position in the their pay gap. I would like to take this opportunity to workplace. praise those companies that have taken that courageous The amendment before us requires that consultation step. Companies such as Friends Life, Genesis Housing must take place before implementation. By consulting Association, PricewaterhouseCoopers, Tesco, AstraZeneca with business, we will find the best and most effective and Sodexo have made the commitment that they would way of implementing section 78 while meeting the objective do so by 2016. of achieving genuine transparency on pay and tackling However, I have spoken with representatives of some the gender pay gap now. I look forward to the House’s of those companies about how they managed to achieve support for the amendment. that change within their organisations, and they have told me of the battles they had to have in order to get Toby Perkins: It is a great pleasure to speak on the that past their lawyers because of concern about the amendments proposed by the noble Lords. risk to the company. Indeed, at one event at which we On 16 July, we debated the Second Reading of this were discussing the pay gap a business woman told me Bill. It was interesting, in preparing for this debate, to that companies would not publish those data because re-read the contributions that were made then and they would be self-critical. To be fair to employers, the those that have been made by Labour Members in both gender pay gap is a thorny problem that has a range of Houses during its subsequent stages. Though modesty different causes, not least occupational segregation, with would usually prevent me from quoting extensively women going into lower-paid sectors and jobs, and from the contribution that I made, it would be strange subject choices made at school. Therefore, tackling the not to reflect on how widely our critique of the Bill has gender pay gap is not straightforward. That is why we been adopted by the Government. We said that it had said that we would keep section 78 under review, which the potential to make a real difference to small businesses is what we have done. but that the steps that it originally proposed were a collection of faint nods in the right direction of key The amendment recognises that unless it is a legal issues that had emerged under this Government. We requirement, organisations are much less likely to be said that far more robust action would be needed if this prepared to publish those data because, for the reasons Bill was to deliver on the steps small businesses required I have outlined, it is not the kind of picture that we all and to take action on things like abuses of the labour want to see in society. However, the transparency is market and their impact on workers in every constituency crucial to making sure that we can tackle it. These in the land. On the subject of pubs, we said that a regulations will require private and voluntary sector successful small business Bill—a Labour small business employers in Great Britain with at least 250 employees Bill—would have introduced a code with a market rent to publish information about the differences in pay only option, which the Bill now indeed contains. It between their male and female staff. By activating section would be churlish not to recognise that the Government 78, we will shine a light on the gender pay gap. have ultimately acted in good faith on pub company The gender pay gap is not primarily about men and legislation. women being paid differently for the same job, although I should place it on the record that this is the last that forms part of it. That is already unlawful and has piece of legislation that the Minister will be bringing been prohibited by equal pay legislation for many years. through in this Parliament. As we fast approach the The larger elements of the gender pay gap concern general election, who knows when will be the next time occupational segregation and career penalties for taking a Liberal Democrat Minister will have the opportunity time out of the labour market, often because of caring to bring through a piece of legislation? She has done a responsibilities. Those things combine to create a situation good job in reflecting the wishes of the House and has in which women are paid less. We want more businesses acted in good faith on pub company regulation. to take a proactive approach to tackling these problems Their lordships’ amendments broadly achieve the and promoting equality in workplaces across the country. objective of striking the devilishly difficult balance between Employers might want to review their arrangements for proper protection for pub tenants while not imposing flexible and part-time working patterns, provide support an overly rigid straitjacket on the industry with the for maternity returners, actively encourage men to use potential to discourage future investment. They are shared parental leave and tackle unconscious bias during positive steps forward that have faithfully built on the recruitment. spirit of the historic clause 42 proposed by the hon. Roger Cotton of Friends Life, which won last year’s Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland). We Opportunity Now award for transparency, has clearly recognise that some aspects of the proposals will sensibly set out the case for gender pay gap reporting. He said: need to be included in the pubs code through secondary “What gets measured gets managed…what gets published legislation. gets managed even better.” I am delighted that the There remains the thorny issue of the right of the Women’s Business Council, an independent body established tenant to offer a substantial investment in their public by Government, has today published a short guide for house in exchange for giving up the right to use the businesses on the gender pay gap, entitled, “Mending next rent review period as a trigger to request an the talent gap”. It explains to employers what the MRO assessment. The letter dated 16 March from the gender pay gap is, why it matters and the actions they Minister, Baroness Neville-Rolfe, to the noble Lords can take to help close it. I would like to offer a special Mendelsohn and Stevenson details the Government’s thanks to the council’s members, and particularly its intentions with regard to new clause 43 and specifies dynamic chair, Ruby McGregor-Smith, the CEO of that it must not be used to abuse the waiver. However, Mitie Group, for their continuing dedication and this will still leave those who fought this cause for many 1349 Small Business, Enterprise and 24 MARCH 2015 Small Business, Enterprise and 1350 Employment Bill Employment Bill [Toby Perkins] did not think that Report stage was the time to get into a detailed discussion of all the nuances of each individual years with considerable unease that this creates the line, and we know that a tremendous amount of work potential for too broad an exemption for too small an went into drafting a clause that would offer all the investment. necessary protections. We felt, however, that ultimately We entirely agree with the Government that encouraging it was too prescriptive and could have unintended future investment in the stock of public houses is a consequences, and we are pleased to have worked with crucial element in the future success of the industry, the Government on the drafting of the new provision. but, over four months since the original victory for Lords amendment 39 retains the triggers of renewal clause 42, that still leaves a huge unanswered question of tenancy, rent assessments and significant and unexpected about the scale of investment that constitutes “substantial”. price increases or other events beyond the tenant’s I think that my party’s record on this issue means that control that have a significant impact on their level of campaigners will have confidence that the statutory trade. The amendment omits the transfer of title and code that addresses it under a future Labour Government administration triggers that were in the original clause. will be consistent with the approach— On balance, we support that omission, albeit not Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): The hon. Gentleman without reservation. We believe that the impact on the mentioned his party’s position on investment. What natural order of a competitive market that would have scale of investment does he believe would constitute resulted from pub tenants having the right to opt out at “substantial”? the point of transfer of title would have caused a real disincentive to invest. Ironically, it would have meant Toby Perkins: That is an excellent question. The that when a pub was sold from a major pub chain to a whole reason this issue is being placed in secondary microbrewer, fledgling pub operator or family brewer, legislation is that we recognise that there is a very the MRO could have been triggered, acting as a disincentive difficult balance to strike. The formula needs to be to the sort of business transaction we want to support dependent on the relationship of the investment to the and encourage as part of the diversification of the pub value of the pub. For some pubs, a £30,000 investment market. might be substantial. For a town centre or city centre That means that campaigners and the next Government pub, a £200,000 investment might not be so substantial. will need to be vigilant to prevent any attempts to use There needs to be some sort of relationship between the the amendment to game the legislation and exempt rateable value of a pub, the amount that it turns over, from the rights companies with any association with and the amount of investment. companies that we would expect the legislation to cover. The hon. Gentleman is echoing my point, which is The Minister in the other place has made specific the that this has been left very open. A great deal of work Government’s intentions and we have heard that there would need to be done. I assure the House that under a is consistency across the coalition. future Labour Government the principles laid out by Baroness Neville-Rolfe are exactly how we would see On the subject of tenants of pub-owning companies this. I anticipate that the same would be true of a that go into administration, we fear that, at a time when Liberal Democrat-influenced Administration, although the whole future of a large number of pubs would be it would be good to hear the Minister clarify that. It very uncertain, the original provision would have made would also be good to hear from the Conservative party the task of the administrator a great deal more difficult. whether its manifesto will follow the Bill’s principles, or When they would be attempting to bring order to a whether it will take a different approach. The industry complicated situation, some of the stock they were and campaigners have the right to expect that. trying to sell off to new providers would disappear and move into the free trade sector. We concluded that that The Minister for Business and Enterprise (Matthew would make it much more difficult for pubs to survive Hancock): For the record, the Conservative party’s position in the event of a major pub-owning company failure. on this issue is exactly the same as that of the Government. For those reasons, we support those omissions from Lords amendment 39. Toby Perkins: Excellent. I am glad that that has been On Lords amendments 47 to 53, we are pleased that placed on the record. That will give people considerable the Government have not sought to reintroduce to the confidence in the Bill, and many campaigners will be code pub-owning companies with fewer than 500 pubs. grateful to hear what the Minister has just said. In the The Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation unlikely event of a Conservative victory, we will hold and Skills, the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire him to it. (Jo Swinson) and I have enjoyed many a to and fro on the subject during the Bill’s various stages, but I remain Matthew Hancock: Get ready. of the view that, in voting the way we did, some egregious practices may not be covered by the protections. However, Toby Perkins: The Minister says from a sedentary without that concession, we would have been less likely position, “Get ready.”We understand that Lynton Crosby to win the support of the House for the MRO option. has been telling the Conservatives to get ready for the In the final analysis, that prize was worth the sacrifice. past four or five months, but they never seem to reach As a gesture of good will to the industry and as a matter the point he promises. We will no doubt debate that of honour, this House should stick to what we have over the next six weeks. given it to believe we were legislating on, namely a code The Government’s Lords amendment 39 replaces containing provisions for businesses owning more than clause 42. We were proud to support the new clause 500 pubs. We are therefore pleased to support the tabled by the hon. Member for Leeds North West. We Government’s commitment. 1351 Small Business, Enterprise and 24 MARCH 2015 Small Business, Enterprise and 1352 Employment Bill Employment Bill The Government have probably got the balance right reduce the number of pub closures that have gone on in Lords amendment 47, which accepts our suggestion over decades in this country and to stop such closures of extending code protections—apart from the MRO taking place. We need legislation that will allow the option—to tenants whose pubs are sold from a pub-owning industry to do that. company covered by the Bill’s provisions to a company The Government have obviously listened to the will outside the Bill’s scope. of the House. I put forward a particular view—I had Lords amendment 46 also performs a delicate balancing concerns about the unintended consequence of the act by retaining the protection for pub-owning brewers Bill—but the House took a different view. The Government to offer free of tie while also retaining their right to have listened to that view, and they have been honourable insist that their product is marketed. The question I in how they have proposed changes to the legislation. asked the Minister is important, because some pub-owning Nobody who voted on Second Reading can have any brewers might think that retaining their stock and the concerns about the Government not having done the right to market it is more important than their wholesale honourable thing in listening to the will of the House, business. In that eventuality, if a brewer stops selling so I commend them. through their wholesale business, which they are perfectly We are all looking for the outcome that more pubs entitled to do, a tenant who is in principle free of tie will thrive, survive and are successful, but I just draw the still be forced, under the provision, to buy from that attention of hon. Members to my concerns about brewer as the only option available. We will need to look unintended consequences. We have heard the phrase at that again. “the beer orders” on many occasions, and we have looked at what Lord Young and the then Government 3.45 pm did in relation to legislation on brewers and pubs. The In summary, the pubs code with a market rent only unintended consequence of that legislation was to put option, which Opposition Members and indeed many the industry in a worse position: it actually led to the right hon. and hon. Government Members have called creation of the pubcos that so many people now argue for during most of this Parliament, is now being delivered. against vehemently, and it had a terribly detrimental A considerable amount of work still needs to be done to impact on the industry and on the sustainability and ensure that the code backs up the Bill’s intentions, but profitability of pubs. I urge the Government, in continuing this House and the other place have done a job of work to develop their legislation, to be aware of the unintended and the Bill, which we have a chance to pass into law consequences of their actions. today, is a good deal stronger than anyone could have One particular point to which I draw the House’s anticipated back in July. attention is the issue of investment. This is an industry. The Minister is absolutely right to say that Lords Yes, we love our community pubs, which are an important amendment 86 is very important. Ironically, she quoted part of our society, and we all appreciate the work they her right hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey and do in our constituencies. However, such pubs have to be Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone), who said in 2009 viable—profitable and successful—businesses for the that four years was too long to wait, but she has been people who invest in them. We all recognise that in the part of a Government who have waited until the very modern world, where there is the constant redevelopment end and who—even during the passage of the Bill—did and repackaging of the offering in the service industry, not intend to bring in such a provision until, in the face be it from Starbucks, Costa Coffee or the local pub, of defeat in the other place, they had to back down on there is a dramatic need for investment. If a pub does the amendment championed by Baroness Thornton not have investment, looks shabby and down-at-heel, and Baroness King. The amendment stayed on the does not feel modern and is not well-kept, the public Lords marshalled list for weeks and weeks without the will vote with their feet. They have so many other places Government taking any action. When Baroness King to go to. They can enjoy their time at home or go to one spoke in favour of the amendment during a Lords of the many coffee shops, restaurants and other premises debate on international women’s day, no Government on the high street. peers rose to support her. Although I entirely agreed Investment is essential if we are to develop our pub with the principles laid out by the Minister, it is a little estate, improve the offering and the customer experience, bit rich for her to claim that Lords amendment 86 is and encourage more people to use the pub. That is what part of some grand strategy, when it was simply a we have to do. The reality is that people are drinking reaction to an impending defeat in the other place. less and going to pubs less. We have to allow the Notwithstanding that fact, an important step has industry to provide a product that encourages people to been taken, and if Baroness King was willing to heap leave their homes and visit our pubs. Investment is praise on the Government for their athletic U-turn, who essential if we are to achieve that. am I to stand in the way of recognising that in this area, I therefore urge the Government to look carefully at as on pub companies, the Government may have taken the secondary legislation that they bring forward. We some time to get there, but they have got to the right need the companies that are investing in our pubs to place in the end? have certainty. Investing in a pub can cost more than £50,000 and in some cases as much as £150,000 or Andrew Griffiths: I draw the House’s attention to my £200,000. If companies are to make that investment, it chairmanship of the all-party group on beer, and to my is essential that they have some certainty about the entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. return on their investment. If we cut off the supply of This has been a contentious and on some occasions investment, it will be to the detriment of our pubs and ill-tempered debate. That is a great shame, because we will see them go backwards. I therefore urge the ultimately we all want the same thing—to achieve a Government, when they come forward with secondary thriving industry. We want British pubs to succeed, to legislation, to listen to the industry. It needs certainty. 1353 Small Business, Enterprise and 24 MARCH 2015 Small Business, Enterprise and 1354 Employment Bill Employment Bill Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): It is a A number of changes have been made to the clause, pleasure to speak at the final stage of this important but it does not apply to all tenants of large companies Bill. I shall of course speak about the pubs code. I am as we intended it to. If someone exercises their right to delighted that there is a string of amendments from the take the market rent only option, they suddenly exclude other place which I and my colleagues on the all-party themselves from any protection under the code, which parliamentary save the pub group and the Fair Deal for seems strange and perverse. Despite all the sound and Your Local campaign can support and welcome. fury, the market rent option is only the right to an I thank all Members from all parts of the House who independent rent assessment on a free-of-tie basis, and voted for the market rent only option on 18 November the right to pay that. There is no logic in saying that it 2014, which will go down as a historic day for the should apply only to tied or part-tied tenants, and not British pub. I thank the hon. Member for Chesterfield to any tenant who believes that they may be being (Toby Perkins) for bringing his side firmly behind that exploited at their rent review. proposal. I especially thank the Government Members The loopholes in the beer orders are the problem, and who had the courage to defy their Whip in what was the an obvious loophole—a new vehicle for some of the only defeat of the Government Whip in this Parliament. large, less scrupulous companies to exploit—allows I warmly welcomed it when the Government said that companies to have excessive rental only agreements and they would accept the will of the House. However, as excessive costs for insurance. There is an insurance most right hon. and hon. Members know, it appeared scam in parts of the industry whereby people are forced that that would not to be the case a few weeks ago. I and to pay considerably more for insurance to their pub-owning others expressed concern when, at the Grand Committee company, even on a free-of-tie basis, than they would if stage in the House of Lords, we no longer had a they got insurance on the open market. The Government workable market rent only option that would definitely must be aware of that. be introduced at a certain trigger point. We had to get Clearly we would have liked the sale of a pub to be a that back into the Bill and we did. trigger, but I welcome the fact that the Government I thank my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State have sought to deal with the issue. We shall look further for Business, Innovation and Skills, the Under-Secretary at the detail of the measure because there is a problem of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. with companies, including developers, buying pubs and Friend the Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson), using the terms of tied agreements to force people out and all the other Ministers, including the Minister for of those pubs so that they can get vacant possession Business and Enterprise, my right hon. Friend the Member and develop a site. There is a danger that large companies for West Suffolk (Matthew Hancock). I thank the whole will seek to use the loophole to put themselves deliberately team who have worked on this issue. It has been a into administration, restructure and form smaller companies challenge for all of them to balance the different views. that would come under the limit, and then carry on In the end, they have achieved that. They have achieved business as usual. something remarkable: a proposal that people accept Investment is clearly a big issue, and I have had will be the future of the tied pub sector. helpful and sensible discussions with Heineken, Greene I must express a few notes of concern because this is King and Marston’s—all sustainable companies that not the end of the matter. I was not sure whether to will continue to survive and thrive. As I have made raise a pint this evening or next week when the Bill has clear, it was never our intention to stop or discourage gained Royal Assent, so I have decided to do both. This investment in pubs, and one of the biggest problems of is not the end of the matter, because we still have the the tied pubco model was the grotesque lack of passage of the statutory instruments and the consultation investment—those scruffy pubs with the threadbare over the pubs code, which will take a year. I and others carpets that people could tell were Punch Taverns or will certainly be engaged in that. We understand and Enterprise Inns pubs. Investment was left to the tenants, support the principle, but we must get it right. but they were not able to invest anything in their pub. James Baer of Amber Taverns said that the large companies Let me say firmly that there must not be any watering were walking around with as much debt as Lance down of the fundamental principle in the Bill— Armstrong had dope in his arm, and that that was one [Interruption.] As the hon. Member for Hartlepool of the biggest problems in the pub sector—stopping (Mr Wright) said, that would be as disgraceful as watering investment in pubs. down the beer, and just as illegal. We must ensure that that principle is honoured, whoever is in government The intention behind our clause was always that if after the election—a question that none of us can two partners agreed an investment, there would be a answer at the moment. new rent and therefore no need for a rent review for another five years. We must avoid any sense that the I wish to say quite forcefully that we must not be market rent only option can or will be waived for fooled by the idea that somehow the beer orders were investment that happens before a tenant signs an agreement, the problem; it was the watering down of the beer or signs up to one during a tenancy at will. Often the orders as a result of industry lobbying that led to the previous tenant asked for that investment but it was tragedy and disaster of the beer orders. That watering refused, even if it should have been made anyway to down happened in the House of Lords, and I am keep the pub in a fit state to let in the first place. That is delighted that this time we have collectively managed to not the kind of investment we should be talking about. stop it. It was precisely that watering down, with large companies saying, “Okay, well you’re going to legislate the beer orders, but give us that loophole and allow us 4pm to have that freedom if we don’t brew beer”, which led I am pleased to say, however, that altogether we can to the problem, although I believe we have avoided it welcome the changes. I thank the Fair Deal For Your this time. Local campaign coalition and the organisations involved 1355 Small Business, Enterprise and 24 MARCH 2015 Small Business, Enterprise and 1356 Employment Bill Employment Bill in it: the Campaign for Real Ale, the Federation of opportunities in the marketplace in the years ahead. Small Businesses, the Forum of Private Business, Licensees Small brewers need to be supported and promoted. The Supporting Licensees, the Fair Pint Campaign, Licensees changes made to the Bill in the past few months will do Unite the union, The Guild of Master Victuallers, exactly that. I therefore have great pleasure in signalling Justice for Licensees, the Pubs Advisory Service, the my support for the Bill today. GMB and of course my own Save the Pub group established in 2009. I think many right hon. and hon. Jo Swinson: With the leave of the House, I wish to Members would agree that this has been one of the most respond briefly to the debate and thank hon. Members successful campaigning all-party groups of this Parliament. for their contributions. The hon. Member for Chesterfield I warmly praise the incredible work of the Business, (Toby Perkins) was kind. As others have said, this is an Innovation and Skills Committee over the past eight years, example of where the Government have listened, Parliament chaired first by the hon. Member for Mid Worcestershire has spoken and we have worked genuinely with stakeholders (Sir Peter Luff) and then, just as ably, by the hon. and people from all parties to come to the right outcome. Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey), and all Some outstanding concerns have been raised. The the members and staff of the Committee in that time. hon. Member for Chesterfield asked whether the investment I thank the Minister in the other place who I know is waiver would end up being too broad for too little taking a big interest in these proceedings. In her first investment, and obviously it is important that we consult speech in Committee, she said that I had failed to be to get those details right. He also sought clarity as to prepared to be engaged. She then realised that the whether the principles laid out would be upheld. The problem was that I had not been asked to be engaged Minister for Business and Enterprise, my right hon. properly. It was when I was asked that we were able to Friend the Member for West Suffolk (Matthew Hancock), come to this agreement. I would be grateful if Ministers made the Conservative position clear in an intervention, could pass on my thanks and praise to the officials and and I am happy to confirm that the Liberal Democrats the special advisers who worked extremely hard to push stand behind these principles. I hope that the consensus this through. across the three main parties on those principles will I have been working on this issue for more than seven give the industry and tenants some welcome confidence, years, as have many campaigners from the organisations certainty and reassurance. I have mentioned. I want to dedicate this incredible My hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Andrew legislative change to Trevor and Wendy Pragnell. Trevor Griffiths) was concerned about potential unintended died in his Enterprise Inns pub a week after having to consequences, and my hon. Friend the Member for close it. I sat with Wendy, his widow, and heard the Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) about some of reality of what this business model had done to them the issues still to be discussed when we come to the and their lives. Many other people have suffered at its secondary legislation. It is right that these matters be hands, too. We should never forget that this is not just discussed properly during the secondary legislation phase about pubs; this is about fairness and justice. and that we get them right. The long string of amendments This has been an amazing journey. This has been a to which my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North David versus Goliath victory. This has been a victory West referred is testimony to the challenge of the detail for campaigning. This has been a victory for people we had to go into to get the issues right, and in that power. This has been an emphatic and enthusiastic connection I would like to put on record my thanks to victory for this Parliament. the officials who have worked tirelessly on this—not one of the more straightforward policy areas in the Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): I shall not linger Department—over the last few months. I owe them a long on this matter, although it has been very complicated great deal of thanks for the wonderful job they have and at times the debate has been robust. This is a done. victory for Parliament. The Bill has been properly contested There are issues still to be wrangled over come the and thoroughly debated, and the outcome is impressive. secondary legislation stage, but I do not know whether I I want to signal my support for the amendments today will be the Minister or if somebody else will have the and for the overall direction of the debate. great joy of steering that through the House. These are During the passage of the Bill there were times when debates for another day. Today we should just be pleased we disagreed, but those disagreements were based on a with the proposed primary legislation before us. deep belief that we had to get it right. Overall, that is Lords amendment 34 agreed to. what has happened. I take on board the points relating Lords amendments 35 to 62, 86, 132 and 136 to 141 to the code and to delegated legislation. It is absolutely agreed to. right that more thinking will need to be done. Fundamentally, however, the direction of travel is now correct. Some of my concerns have been responded to Clause 3 properly by the House of Lords, which is absolutely fabulous. I think that anyone watching this debate will COMPANIES: DUTY TO PUBLISH REPORT ON PAYMENT have been impressed by the way in which the two PRACTICES Houses have worked together to deal with this complicated Bill. They have produced an outcome that is good for Matthew Hancock: I beg to move, That this House the pub industry, good for the brewing industry and agrees with Lords amendment 1. good for our communities and our pubs. Ultimately, we want successful pubs and successful Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With this it breweries. I want pubs in my constituency to continue will be convenient to take Lords amendments 2 to 33, to thrive and for brewers to feel confident about 63 to 85, 87 to 131, 133 to 135 and 142 to 193. 1357 Small Business, Enterprise and 24 MARCH 2015 Small Business, Enterprise and 1358 Employment Bill Employment Bill Matthew Hancock: With only a few days remaining I worked in. Frankly, the late payment culture is a in this Parliament, the Government continue to work problem with our contract law. Good contract law tirelessly to make the UK the best place in the world to means good payment against a contract. I think these start and grow a business. We are proud of our record transparency measures will have a significant impact, over this Parliament, including the 760,000 extra businesses, changing prompt payment from being an issue for the 2.2 million extra jobs that business has created and finance directors to being an issue for the board. Through the rising pay that has benefitted millions. This has been these transparency measures, we will not allow it to be possible only because of our unstinting and unambiguous deemed reasonable to pay late. I think that 60 days as a support for businesses. Last week’s Budget built on this maximum and 30 days as a norm is a perfectly reasonable record with a fundamental review of business rates, and place to settle. last week we set out our intentions for using the new prompt payment transparency powers. The Bill takes Toby Perkins: I fear that the Minister is rather over-selling this commitment to support small business further. It is the measures he proposes, welcome though they are. the first ever small business Bill and I hope will shortly When he says that 30 days will be the norm and 60 days become the first ever small business Act. the exception and nothing beyond it, will he make clear what happens when businesses do not pay within that In the other place, the Bill was, as we would expect, time frame? What sanctions will they face under this subjected to careful and robust scrutiny, and I am new regime? grateful to Baroness Neville-Rolfe for ably steering it through the other place, where it was enhanced and Matthew Hancock: There are already sanctions under improved. As part of that, several amendments were EU law relating to interest payments, but the transparency made, both substantive and technical. The Government measures will crucially mean that we can have league supported all the successful amendments, and I hope tables of payment performance. The transparency in that the House will agree them today. I shall go through this area, alongside the public sector payment practices, each in turn, beginning with late payment. The Bill will change the culture. We considered and debated in takes unprecedented steps to tackle late payment, so detail going further in changing contract law, but a understandably the matter was debated in detail in this contract is signed up to by both sides, and no practical House and the other place. Late payment is a major amendment was put down to make it more binding issue for businesses large and small, and we are taking than the existing law, which already says that 60 days steps in the Bill and elsewhere to bring an end to the should be the maximum unless both sides agree to it. UK’s late payment culture once and for all. Any contract, of course, has to be agreed to by both Transparency has a pivotal role to play. Clause 3 sides. It is a matter of finding a way to make this introduces a tough new prompt payment reporting practical in law. requirement for the UK’s largest companies. In the Part 2 deals with regulatory reform, and the Bill other place, this clause was further strengthened by brings forward significant measures to reduce the burden amendments 1 to 3, which insert a reference to performance of regulation. The small business appeals champion on the face of the Bill and make express reference to late will ensure that small businesses’ concerns about regulators payment interest as an example of the type of information are heard. There was extensive debate in the other place that will be included in the report. Beyond the Bill, we on whether the Equality and Human Rights Commission have strengthened the prompt payment code with our should be excluded from these measures. announcement last month that 30-day payment terms We have always maintained that the EHRC should not be will be the norm of acceptable behaviour, with 60 days subject to the duty to appoint a champion and had as the maximum in all but exceptional circumstances. The originally considered that an exemption in secondary public sector will play its part, as 30-day terms are now legislation would be sufficient. Concerns were expressed, legally required right down the public sector supply however, that this might put at risk the EHRC’s “A” chain. status as a national human rights institution. In the The transparency measures in the Bill will shine a light of those concerns, we agreed to eliminate this light on poor payment practices and make a company’s potential risk by excluding the EHRC from scope of the payment terms a reputational boardroom issue. We will duty on the face of the Bill. drive a culture change to redress the current economic On the business impact target, the other place questioned imbalance of power between large companies and their the definition of voluntary and community bodies in suppliers. The amendments under consideration today clause 27. The Government listened to this concern will help to ensure suppliers are fairly compensated. We and amendment 28 simplifies the definition by removing are determined to make 30-day terms the norm and the minimum membership threshold for certain smaller 60 days the maximum acceptable payment terms. With unincorporated associations. It also ensures that such this Bill, we will make unacceptable late payment a bodies are not excluded from the proposed definitions thing of the past. of small and micro businesses later in the Bill by virtue of the size of their membership. Those are relatively John Howell (Henley) (Con): I very much welcome technical changes. The principle of a business impact what the Minister said and I welcome the clause. When target to ensure that in future Governments are I was running a small business of my own, late payments transparent—as this Government have been—about the bedevilled the business, and it was always the larger impact of their overall regulatory approach on the companies that were responsible for it. I am very glad burdens of business was well supported, and is made that this amendment is being made. clear in the Bill. Matthew Hancock: I am grateful for that intervention. 4.15 pm I, too, have personal experience of poor payment Part 7 deals with the transparency of companies. The performance having a massive impact on the businesses provisions concerning the register of people with significant 1359 Small Business, Enterprise and 24 MARCH 2015 Small Business, Enterprise and 1360 Employment Bill Employment Bill control also received close scrutiny. In the other place, UK Coal Kellingley and Thoresby could continue to ways of improving the details were suggested on all receive concessionary coal allowances, which would be sides, and the Government listened and responded with wrong. The amendment gives us the power to meet this a number of amendments. The Prime Minister made entitlement for those miners. It is right and shows our clear in October 2013 that the PSC register should be commitment to the staff at those collieries, and I hope it publicly accessible, and, in that spirit, Lords amendment gets the support of the House. 146 removes unnecessary restriction from those who Alongside the robust examination of the Bill in the seek access to a company’s register. It was also proposed other place, the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform that the public register should state clearly where Committee also scrutinised the Bill. The Government information has been protected from public disclosure, have made a number of amendments in response to and Lords amendments 143 and 150 address that proposal. these recommendations, as well as a number of technical Lords amendments 156 and 157 are designed to and consequential amendments on the topics of credit protect investors in certain non-UK arrangements by data, cheque clearing, finance platforms, home business, treating them in the same way as English limited child care, the PSC—people with significant control— partnerships. In the other place, we committed ourselves register and insolvency proceedings. These are set out in to using the power in the Bill to increase the frequency the explanatory notes on amendments. with which PSC information is provided for the central In all, these amendments strengthen the Bill, the Bill register in 2017, about 12 months after the system goes will strengthen business, and strong business will strengthen live next year. That responds to calls for information in Britain. The amendments before us have the full support the central register to be more up to date, while giving of Government and I hope will have the support of the companies a year in which to adjust to the new House. requirements. It will tie in with the transposition deadline for the EU’s fourth money laundering directive, which Toby Perkins: The Minister questioned whether the will shortly require all EU member states to hold “current” amendments will have the support of the Opposition. company beneficial ownership information in central They will do, of course; we proposed a good deal of registers. I am grateful to Members in all parts of the them, so it would be rather foolish for us not to be House for their engagement in improving those provisions. supporting them at this stage. The Minister is right to Part 10 contains important measures to improve say the Bill arrives back in this House in stronger order insolvency and reform pre-pack administrations so that than it left it. It looks far more like the kind of small they cannot be abused. In Committee, concern was business Bill I was talking about back in July 2014 when expressed about creditors’ ability to call face-to-face I said the Government ought to be taking far greater meetings in insolvency proceedings, particularly when steps, and I agree with the Minister that the Bill is numerous small creditors were involved. Lords improved. amendments 71 to 84 enable a face-to-face meeting to We said steps needed to be taken to strengthen be requested by 10% of the total number of creditors or enforcement of the compensatory award in employment contributories, with an absolute threshold of 10, as well tribunal cases. We are pleased the Government have as 10% by the value of their claims. today announced a naming and shaming programme that will ensure exposure of businesses that do not pay Part 11 deals with employment. Lords amendment compensatory awards identified by a tribunal. We said 87 responds to the findings of the Francis report on that insolvency creditors meetings were an important NHS whistleblowing. The report unveiled a culture of part of our world-class regime and we are glad the silence in parts of the NHS, which in some cases went Government accepted our amendment on that. We are right to the top. We are determined to change that. The glad, too, that the Government decided to exempt the Bill already introduces a power to impose a requirement Equality and Human Rights Commission from the on prescribed persons to report annually on whistleblowing work of the small business appeals champion—although concerns that they receive, but we want to go further to not from the growth duty section of the Deregulation protect whistleblowers. The amendment will enable the Bill, as we called for at the time. On late payment as Secretary of State to prohibit NHS employers from well, we have been saying for a long time that stronger discriminating against a job applicant on the grounds action was needed. I am therefore bound to say that the that the applicant appears to have blown the whistle fact that these are issues Her Majesty’s Opposition have previously. We want a culture of openness in the NHS. been raising, from abuse of zero-hours contracts to late We want problems that are uncovered to be dealt with, payments to small firms, and from non-payment of the and we want our brilliant NHS staff to be supported so national minimum wage to supplier pay and stay deals—an that they can fulfil their vocation of care. area of pub company legislation we have already It was suggested in the other place that cost orders discussed—shows that it is the Opposition who have should be included in the calculation of the penalty for been leading the way, and the Government have been late payment of employment tribunal awards, and that following us reluctantly. suggestion is reflected in Lords amendments 88 to 105. It rather undermines the charge that Labour is anti- Lords amendments 106 to 122 ensure that the Scottish business when the Government keep taking action in so Government will have control over exit payments made many of the ways we have called for. I know the by bodies within Scottish legislative and executive Government have form in this regard; they used to competence. suggest UKIP was mad before they adopted its No. 1 In the other place, the Government introduced a policy. However, we support the principle that the small but important new measure on concessionary Government should be willing to listen and take action coal. We are helping UK Coal to operate in a challenging where they have got things wrong, and we think the Bill environment. Without Lords amendment 123, we would before us today is a good deal stronger as a result of not have the statutory power to ensure that workers at that. 1361 Small Business, Enterprise and 24 MARCH 2015 Small Business, Enterprise and 1362 Employment Bill Employment Bill [Toby Perkins] However, we are pleased that the Government have made some concessions and accepted our fundamental I want to take up the Minister’s challenge on late argument that information on performance, as well as payments. As I said in my intervention, he is overplaying policies, must be published. This will allow large companies his hand when he suggests that the measures brought to be judged by their deeds, not just by their words. forward, welcome though they are, signal the end of However, we believe that there should be a financial egregious late payment practices. The steps the Minister backstop, such as an automatic interest payment or a has taken on the public sector are welcome. Particularly fines regime, as outlined in our proposals. So it remains at the time of the bank-induced global economic crisis, to be seen how effective the Bill will be. It is stronger as the previous Labour Government took significant steps a result of the interventions by the Labour Opposition to ensure the public sector paid on time and this is but more could have been done and, regrettably, we will putting that on to a more permanent footing, which is a have to return to this issue in the next Parliament. positive step. However, the Minister suggested that the The Bill establishes small business appeals champions, transparency he is introducing will create a reputational whose role will be to watch non-economic Government risk that means businesses and boardrooms around the regulators and encourage them to improve the impact country will think carefully before paying late. While on business of their policies, their processes and their the way this is going to be marketed will be different, approach on appeals and complaints. In broad terms many of the transparency measures proposed here are we welcome this idea, but many bodies have questioned currently available if people choose to look. There has how the champions will work in practice and what been no reputational risk for many of the companies relationship they will have with the general growth duty that have operated in that way. in the Deregulation Bill. We welcome the fact that the In response to what the Minister said a few minutes Government have taken up our argument that the guidance ago, the truth is that no new sanctions have been to the small business appeals champions in relation to proposed. He said that businesses could avail themselves the exercise of their functions should be laid before of the sanctions in the EU late payment directive, but Parliament for full scrutiny and debate. they have been able to do that for several years. If a On Lords amendment 25, we are pleased that the major business chooses to say, “We’ll supply you, but Government have acceded to our demand that the our terms are 90 days”, a small business will have the Equality and Human Rights Commission be excluded choice of whether to deal with it on those terms or not from any of the regulatory provisions in the Bill. This at all. That means that nothing has changed, and we are will relate specifically to the work of the small business still in exactly the same position. appeals champions. The steps that the Government are proposing on late On the subject of creditor meetings, I should like to payment are fine, as far as they go, but this is a missed draw to the attention of the House the donation made opportunity. I am willing to predict that, in the next to my office of employment support from R3, the Parliament, we will not consider this issue to have been insolvency regulator. The intention of the original Bill dealt with and that, at some point in the next four or was to end once and for all the practice of insolvency five years, we will all be back here discussing late practitioners holding physical creditor meetings in all payment again and saying that something must be types of insolvency procedures. We felt that that was a done, that we must change the culture, that we need to mistake and that it could disengage creditors and weaken get across to businesses that late payments are unacceptable, the strength of the world-leading insolvency regime and that we need greater transparency so that small that we have here in the UK. We very much welcome the businesses know what they are letting themselves in for. fact that the Government have listened to some of the My right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North specific proposals we made on ensuring that the threshold (Edward Miliband) stated powerfully at the Federation for a creditors meeting should be changed to of Small Businesses conference last week that late payments “(a) 10% in value of the creditors; are one of the great scandals in our economy. Small (b) 10% in number of the creditors; businesses are disadvantaged by the practice, and more (c) 10 creditors.” should have been done. We think that is a much stronger amendment, providing Clause 3 initially created a duty for companies to the support that that industry needs to ensure that it publish only their payment policies. We have consistently continues to provide a service that gets record amounts argued that publishing policies is not enough and that of money back to creditors and is also successful in small businesses also need concrete information on the saving jobs and businesses. performance in practice, and not just what is written in a policy book. We tabled amendments in Committee in the Commons and on Report in the Lords that would 4.30 pm have created a compulsory reporting regime to ensure Let me deal with Lords amendments 88, 89, 92, 93, that large companies’ reporting records would be open 100 and 101. We raised several concerns about the to quarterly scrutiny with automatic interest paid for Government’s proposals for employment tribunals in late payment. The Government voted down our proposals this Bill. For example, we were concerned that fines on both occasions. The Minister said a few minutes ago could be levied to businesses that have not paid the that no practicable proposals had been tabled in this compensatory award; the business could pay the fine regard, but that is not true. We tabled specific proposals but would not necessarily have paid that award. We are that would have put the late payment directive on a pleased that the Government have conceded and made statutory footing. He might have decided that he did things a bit better, but, again, they have not gone as far not want to support our proposals, but it is not true to as we would like in covering that issue. An amendment say that they did not exist. has been accepted that includes any amount the tribunal 1363 Small Business, Enterprise and 24 MARCH 2015 1364 Employment Bill has ordered the employer to pay the worker in respect of Section 5 of the European Communities legal costs within the definition of the financial award (Amendment) Act 1993 owed to the claimant for the purposes of the financial penalty for non-payment. That will ensure that an employer must comply with both the employment tribunal award 4.33 pm for compensation and any order in respect of costs to avoid a penalty. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke): I beg to move, So we feel strongly that the Bill arrives back here and will pass into law a good deal stronger than it arrived. That this House approves, for the purposes of section 5 of the European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993, the Government’s We feel strongly that the steps we have proposed and assessment as set out in Budget 2015 and Autumn Statement which have been accepted by the Government show that 2014, combined with the Office for Budget Responsibility’s Economic in many cases Government interventions can very positively and Fiscal Outlook (2015) and Fiscal Sustainability Report (2014), support the successful running of our business and of which forms the basis of the United Kingdom’s Convergence our economy. They can ensure that workers are supported Programme. in the workplace, and they can help us to build an As in previous years, the Government inform the economy in which the prosperity of the nation is shared Commission of the UK’s economic and budgetary position among the many, not the few. In so doing, they can also in line with our commitments under the EU’s stability ensure that the rules of the game are sufficiently fair so and growth pact. The Government plan to submit their that small businesses and big businesses are both able to convergence programme, with the approval of both compete, coexist and thrive. On that basis, this House Houses. The convergence programme explains the can be very pleased with the work it has done in Government’s medium-term fiscal policies, as set out in amending the Bill. the 2014 autumn statement and Budget 2015, and also Lords amendment 1 agreed to. includes the Office for Budget Responsibility forecasts. Lords amendments 2 to 33, 63 to 85, 87 to 131, 133 to As such, it is based entirely on previously published 135, and 142 to 193 agreed to, with Commons financial documents that have been presented to Parliament. privileges waived in respect of Lords amendments 85, 123 With the Budget on 18 March this year, and the and 133. debate much earlier than normal because of the electoral timetable, I appreciate that the time to prepare for this debate has been particularly tight. Against that backdrop the Treasury has made every effort to provide early copies of the convergence programme document in advance of the debate today. The document makes it clear that since 2010 the Government’s long-term economic plan has delivered the stability and security needed to build a resilient economy: the UK had the fastest growth among G7 economies in 2014; employment has reached its highest ever level; and inflation—the consumer prices index—is at a record low. Debt as a share of GDP is now forecast to start falling in 2015- 16, meeting the debt target set out in 2010. There are differing views on the value of submitting that information to the Commission. To be clear, as a result of the UK’s opt out from the single currency, no sanctions can be imposed on the UK as part of this process. The UK’s record is a good one, and there is some value in sharing the UK experience across Europe and demonstrating that there is no conflict between central fiscal consolidation on the one hand and robust economic growth on the other. Last week’s Budget set out the Government’s assessment of the UK’s medium-term economic and budgetary position. GDP grew 2.6% in 2014, which is the strongest annual growth since 2007 and the fastest in the G7. Debt is forecast to fall as a share of GDP in 2015-16, meeting the debt target set out by the Government in 2010. Borrowing is forecast to be lower in every year to 2018-19 than at autumn statement 2014, and the public finances are forecast to achieve a larger surplus in 2018-19. Falling debt and improving borrowing mean that consolidation can end a year earlier than planned, and that spending will grow in line with GDP in 2019-20. Budget 2015 builds on existing reforms to create a dynamic, regionally balanced and stronger economy. Latest data show that employment is at its highest ever level, with 1.9 million more people in work since the current Government came to power. Business investment 1365 Section 5 of the European 24 MARCH 2015 Section 5 of the European 1366 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 [Mr David Gauke] 4.39 pm has increased by 25.6% since the first quarter of 2010, Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- and the UK will have the joint lowest rate of corporation op): I am grateful for the opportunity to respond to the tax in the G20 from April 2015. motion on behalf of the Opposition. Looking back over the corresponding debate last year, I was interested Budget 2015 sets out a significant package of measures to see that the Minister’s predecessor, the right hon. for a truly national recovery by investing in infrastructure, Member for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan), told the housing, and science and innovation across the whole of House that, due to the tight timetable, the UK, and building a northern powerhouse. Fuel “the Treasury has made every effort to provide early copies of the duty will be frozen for another year. The Government convergence programme document in advance of today’s debate.”— will substantially reduce oil and gas taxes to improve [Official Report, 30 April 2014; Vol. 579, c. 851.] competitiveness in the North sea. Further support for energy-intensive industries will begin in 2015-16. A I acknowledge that today the Financial Secretary indicated comprehensive review of business rates has been launched, the difficulties in providing the document in a timely and there will be a radical simplification of the tax fashion. I received a copy only on Friday. At more than system by abolishing the annual tax return. 250 pages long, it was perhaps not ideal, but it certainly made for interesting weekend reading. Restoring growth and competitiveness across the EU is critical. The euro area outlook is for slow, but positive Mr Gauke: Does the hon. Lady recognise that many growth, supported by lower oil prices and European of those pages were familiar, having been in the Budget Central Bank sovereign quantitative easing. The European documents? No doubt, by Friday, she had already read Commission’s own forecasts from February this year and digested all the Budget documentation. predict growth in 2015 of just 1.7% in the EU as a whole, and 1.3% in the euro area. Some 45% of our exports are destined for the EU and seven of the UK’s Cathy Jamieson: I was just about to say that I know top 10 trading partners are EU member states. the Minister is courteous and accommodating, so I understand that the delay might have been unavoidable. The UK recovery has been based on a number of As he quite often does, he has anticipated a number of policy responses: supportive monetary policy, clear and the questions and points I intended to raise—indeed, credible fiscal consolidation, and structural reform, all the whole thrust of my remarks is just how familiar of which must mutually reinforce each other. Although some of the documents and the issues they cover are, the challenges across member states differ, countries given that they have been discussed already and are across the EU need to consider a similar response, and likely to be debated again tomorrow. I hope to be able to these processes of European co-ordination, including do the subject justice this afternoon. the sharing of information through the shared reporting of fiscal and reform progress, can play a part in making Some things have changed since last year. Looking that happen. across the Chamber, I see that, unlike last time, the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) is Much of the answer lies in national level reforms not in his customary place. I know what a keen interest such as creating flexible labour markets. Clearly, the he normally takes in European matters, having had the European Semester has a key role to play in encouraging pleasure of his company in many European Committees, member states to make ambitious reform commitments, including one only this morning. As the Minister last and the UK has an interest in making those reforms year observed, the hon. Gentleman happen. However, an ambitious EU-level reform agenda is also a key part of the equation and an essential “could go on for hours and hours on that particular subject.” counterpart to national level reforms. —[Official Report, 30 April 2014; Vol. 579, c. 854.] Given his absence from the Chamber this afternoon, In conclusion, the Government are committed to the debate might be shorter than was anticipated. ensuring that, in line with section 5 of the European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993, this House approves As the Financial Secretary observed, once again we the economic and budgetary assessment that forms the have been provided with a barrage of figures, accompanied basis of the convergence programme. Following the by bouts of backslapping, boasts and congratulations House’s approval of that assessment, the Government from the Government to themselves. The overarching will submit the convergence programme to the European theme of the document is to show just how well the Commission, which is expected to make its Government have done—and, no doubt, the Government recommendations to all EU member states in late May. would say that is entirely in order from their perspective. Those recommendations will then be considered by However, the document—and to some extent this debate—is ECOFIN council and agreed by Heads of State or something of an exercise in repackaging. Bits of the Governments at the European Council. Red Book and bits of the Office for Budget Responsibility’s The convergence programme explains the Government’s “Economic and fiscal outlook” are spliced together medium-term fiscal policies as set out in the 2014 with a new binding—a theme and variations on the autumn statement and Budget 2015, and also includes Budget, except there is little theme and scant variation. the Office for Budget Responsibility forecasts. As such Although the Government can try to repackage the it is based entirely on previously published documents Budget, I would argue that they cannot mask some of that have been presented to Parliament. Unlike other the problems we have already raised and the reality of member states, the UK does not submit its Budget to the failure. the Commission for approval, and cannot be subject to Part of me thinks that the Minister’s tune, like the any action or sanctions as a result of its commitments Chancellor’s last week, strikes a pretty discordant note, under the stability and growth pact. I look forward to because the truth is that, under even the mildest scrutiny, the debate. the Government’s economic credibility behaves like a 1367 Section 5 of the European 24 MARCH 2015 Section 5 of the European 1368 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 sand castle in the waves, melting away before our eyes. the proliferation of insecure, low paid jobs, the wealthiest Attempts have been made, through choice language and have been handed a £3 billion tax cut, while the poorest careful presentation, to obscure the impact that this have lost out disproportionately from the cuts to tax Government have had, and continue to have, on the receipts and the increase in VAT. people and public services of this country. The theme that runs through the Red Book and the report we are Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con): Will the discussing today is that everyone can put away their hon. Lady give way? umbrella, because the sun is shining, people across the country are better off, and we should all be very grateful Cathy Jamieson: I will give way in a moment. as we walk hand in hand into the sunlit uplands of Labour has announced today that under no peace and prosperity. [HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear!”] circumstances will we increase VAT in the next Parliament. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman is about to say something I hear the cheers from the Government Benches. from his Government’s point of view. Perhaps he will Hon. Members may wish to wait for the next part of my give the same assurance. speech before further congratulating the Government. The picture is very different for the millions of people Simon Kirby: As the hon. Lady mentioned income across the country who are still firmly mired in the tax, I was thinking of the millions of people taken out slough of despond because of what has happened to of tax and the 27 million people benefiting from the their lives. For example, there are those who are £1,600 a increases in the personal allowance, many of whom, in year worse off since this Government took office, or my constituency, are among the lowest paid. It is all those who are £1,100 a year worse off as a result of the very well to say that we are helping the rich, but we are tax and benefit changes made by this Government, helping the low paid even more. including the rise in VAT. The hundreds and thousands of people across the country, including many in my Cathy Jamieson: Under a Labour Government, there constituency, who are forced to rely on food banks—a would be a new 10p starting rate for tax, and we would persistent and pernicious feature of Tory Britain—are also reverse the tax cut for millionaires, which this not feeling the benefits of the recovery. For them the Government gave and which by no stretch of the sun is not shining. They can see through the smoke and imagination can be seen to be fair. It is interesting that mirrors that the Government use to try to paint a the hon. Gentleman did not mention VAT. I assume the glowing picture. Minister does not want to intervene at this point to give To judge only by the language and tone of the document me an assurance that his Government would not raise in which the Government claim to have laid the foundations VAT in the next Parliament. for a strong economy and a fairer society, one might be It is worth looking back and considering that this is forgiven for thinking that the worst was over. In some the first Parliament since the early 1920s in which the ways that is the most troubling aspect, because we know average person in work will be worse off at the end than that the worst is yet to come. The Chancellor may have they were at the beginning, and the poorest are worse shuffled the numbers around, but no shuffling can off than the rest. Last week Paul Johnson of the Institute conceal the truth about the Government’s economic for Fiscal Studies spelt it out in language that I think plans. As the OBR said, the Budget will mean everyone, including the Government, can understand: “ a much sharper squeeze on real spending in 2016-17 and “Looking only at changes implemented by the coalition the 2017-18 than anything seen over the past five years”, poorest have seen the biggest proportionate losses.” and a That sounds pretty conclusive to me: the poor have lost “sharp acceleration in the pace of implied real cuts to day-to-day the most. spending on public services”. The Minister has given his account of what will Perhaps I do not share the Chancellor’s or the Minister’s happen, but I think that he has been pretty coy about sunny disposition, or perhaps I am more in touch with what is really in store for the future. What about the the reality of the lives of people across the country. I do £12 billion of welfare cuts that the Government have not see much fairness in the document before us or in committed to? They have already overspent on their the Government’s approach. The cuts of more than welfare plans by £25 billion over the course of this 5% planned for 2016-17 and 2017-18 are twice the size Parliament, while at the same time imposing the unfair of any annual cuts in this Parliament. That has resulted and iniquitous bedroom tax, so it is difficult to see how in a somewhat erratic trajectory, described by the OBR that £12 billion squeeze will be achieved. as a “rollercoaster ride” of public spending. Remarkably, When interviewed by Andrew Neil a few days ago, for all the cuts yet to come, the Government continue to the Minister gallantly held the Government line and repeat the tired mantra that “we are all in this together.” steadfastly refused to say where the cuts will be made. That is not borne out by the evidence. Wage growth While we can perhaps applaud his loyal and resolute has been stagnant over the course of the Parliament. nature, he really should be more forthcoming about just Energy bills, on the other hand, have gone up by around where the axe will fall next, because voters across the £300 over the past five years. Although the Government country will be wondering what the Government are boast of more jobs and high rates of employment, we keeping from us. What more can he tell us today? He have to consider what kind of jobs these are. Many are appears still not to want to say anything about VAT, so I low paid. For evidence of that, one need look no further will move on and deal with the Government’s pretentions than the state of the nation’s tax receipts. Income tax to fiscal credibility. receipts and national insurance contributions are £97 billion For most people, a Government who are fiscally lower over the course of the Parliament than was forecast credible are a Government who meet their own fiscal in 2010. Jobs are often insecure and uncertain, typified targets. The budget deficit will be around £90 billion by the over-reliance on zero-hours contracts. Alongside this year, and next year’s budget, far from being balanced, 1369 Section 5 of the European 24 MARCH 2015 Section 5 of the European 1370 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 [Cathy Jamieson] Mr Gauke: The Government do not recognise the £120 billion figure, nor did the previous Government, as was promised in 2010, is projected to show a £75 billion and nor, as far as I am aware, does any statistician. One deficit. Meanwhile, public sector net debt will be £217 billion individual has put that methodology forward, but Her higher in 2015-16 than was projected in 2010. How can Majesty’s Revenue and Customs has set out in some the Government claim to be credible when they have detail the numerous flaws within it. As for tax, I agree missed their own targets by such wide margins? The end that it is important that we get the money in. It is worth result of all that failure, all those missed targets and pointing out that the yield from HMRC’s activities has broken promises, is even bigger spending cuts. gone up from £17 billion a year to £26 billion a year As my right hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor under this Government. We have a proud record of pointed out last week, it really has come to something collecting more in tax, and we will maintain it. when a Government are forced to boast that spending I do not intend to detain the House for long on this as a proportion of GDP will fall only to 1964 levels—levels occasion. The fact is that this Government are getting last seen over 50 years ago. It is not a pretty picture. the deficit down, while living standards are going up, Close scrutiny of the OBR tables shows that 2018 employment is going up, and we are fixing the mess that spending, on the historical comparative measure that we inherited. Is there more to do? Yes, of course there is, the OBR uses for day-to-day spending on public services, and we hope to have the opportunity to address that will fall to its lowest level since 1938. Despite their best over the next five years. efforts, the Tories are still the party that wants to take us Question put, back to the 1930s. The House divided: Ayes 300, Noes 199. The Red Book is trying to perform a delicate balancing act; it is trying to assure us that the worst is over and Division No. 182] [4.57 pm that stability has been restored while at the same time plotting deeper cuts than anything we have seen in this AYES Parliament. I think that it is seeking simply to paper Adams, Nigel Carmichael, Neil over the cracks of failure and evade the debris of Afriyie, Adam Cash, Sir William broken promises. It is for that reason that we will be Aldous, Peter Chishti, Rehman voting against the Government’s motion today. Amess, Sir David Chope, Mr Christopher Andrew, Stuart Clark, rh Greg Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Baldry, rh Sir Tony Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey 4.53 pm Baldwin, Harriett Coffey, Dr Thérèse Mr Gauke: We seem to have entered day five of the Barclay, Stephen Collins, Damian Budget debate. Let me make one or two brief points in Barker, rh Gregory Colvile, Oliver response to the hon. Lady. First, let us remember what Bebb, Guto Cox, Mr Geoffrey the state of the economy was in 2010, and the state of Beith, rh Sir Alan Crabb, rh Stephen Bellingham, Mr Henry Crouch, Tracey the public finances. Our borrowing levels were over Benyon, Richard Davies, David T. C. 10% of GDP, which is a peacetime record, and we were Berry, Jake (Monmouth) forecast to have the highest level of borrowing in the Bingham, Andrew Davies, Glyn G20. Over half of that amount has now been dealt Binley, Mr Brian Davies, Philip with, but we have further to go and further steps are Blackman, Bob Davis, rh Mr David needed to deal with borrowing. That is why this House Blackwood, Nicola de Bois, Nick overwhelmingly voted for the charter for fiscal responsibility, Blunt, Crispin Dinenage, Caroline which means that the cyclical current budget will be Boles, Nick Djanogly, Mr Jonathan balanced by 2017-18. That is a target that those in all Bone, Mr Peter Doyle-Price, Jackie parts of the House signed up to, including Labour Bottomley, Sir Peter Drax, Richard Members, but we heard nothing from them during the Bradley, Karen Duddridge, James Budget debates, or today, about how they would meet Brady, Mr Graham Duncan, rh Sir Alan that ambition. Whereas my party has set out our plans Brake, rh Tom Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Bray, Angie Dunne, Mr Philip for finding £12 billion from welfare cuts, £13 billion Brazier, Mr Julian Ellis, Michael from departmental spending and £5 billion from tax Bridgen, Andrew Ellison, Jane evasion, tax avoidance and aggressive tax planning, we Brine, Steve Ellwood, Mr Tobias have had no such indications from Labour. There is a Brokenshire, James Elphicke, Charlie huge hole where there should be an Opposition party Brooke, rh Annette Eustice, George policy. Browne, Mr Jeremy Evans, Graham Bruce, Fiona Evans, Jonathan Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): The hon. Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Evans, Mr Nigel Gentleman constantly talks about cuts—very unpleasant Buckland, Mr Robert Evennett, rh Mr David cuts that are going to affect a lot of poor people—but Burley, Mr Aidan Fabricant, Michael Burns, Conor Fallon, rh Michael the real problem is an income problem, because we have Burns, rh Mr Simon Field, rh Mark a tax gap of £120 billion through evasion and avoidance Burstow, rh Paul Foster, rh Mr Don that the Government refuse to recognise to its full Burt, rh Alistair Fox,rhDrLiam extent. If we looked at the income side and made sure Byles, Dan Francois, rh Mr Mark we collected the tax that should be paid, then we could Cable, rh Vince Freeman, George address the problems with the deficit—if they are serious Cairns, Alun Freer, Mike problems—and, at the same time, not inflict cuts on Campbell, Mr Gregory Fullbrook, Lorraine poor people. Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Fuller, Richard 1371 Section 5 of the European 24 MARCH 2015 Section 5 of the European 1372 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Gale, Sir Roger Leslie, Charlotte Selous, Andrew Tomlinson, Justin Garnier, rh Sir Edward Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Shannon, Jim Tredinnick, David Garnier, Mark Lewis, Brandon Sharma, Alok Truss, rh Elizabeth Gauke, Mr David Lewis, rh Dr Julian Shelbrooke, Alec Turner, Mr Andrew George, Andrew Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Simmonds, rh Mark Tyrie, Mr Andrew Gibb, Mr Nick Lilley, rh Mr Peter Simpson, rh Mr Keith Uppal, Paul Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lloyd, Stephen Skidmore, Chris Vara, Mr Shailesh Glen, John Lopresti, Jack Smith, Chloe Vickers, Martin Goldsmith, Zac Loughton, Tim Smith, Henry Walker, Mr Charles Goodwill, Mr Robert Luff, Sir Peter Smith, Julian Walker, Mr Robin Gove, rh Michael Lumley, Karen Smith, Sir Robert Wallace, Mr Ben Graham, Richard Macleod, Mary Soames, rh Sir Nicholas Ward, Mr David Grant, Mrs Helen Main, Mrs Anne Soubry, Anna Watkinson, Dame Angela Gray, Mr James May, rh Mrs Theresa Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Weatherley, Mike Grayling, rh Chris Maynard, Paul Spencer, Mr Mark Webb, rh Steve Green, rh Damian McCartney, Karl Stanley, rh Sir John Wharton, James Greening, rh Justine McCrea, Dr William Stephenson, Andrew Wheeler, Heather Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McIntosh, Miss Anne Stevenson, John White, Chris Griffiths, Andrew McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stewart, Bob Whittaker, Craig Gummer, Ben McPartland, Stephen Stewart, Iain Whittingdale, Mr John Gyimah, Mr Sam McVey, rh Esther Stewart, Rory Wiggin, Bill Hague, rh Mr William Menzies, Mark Streeter, Mr Gary Williams, Roger Halfon, Robert Metcalfe, Stephen Stride, Mel Willott, rh Jenny Hames, Duncan Miller, rh Maria Stuart, Mr Graham Wilson, Mr Rob Hammond, rh Mr Philip Mills, Nigel Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hammond, Stephen Milton, rh Anne Sturdy, Julian Wright, rh Jeremy Hancock, rh Matthew Moore, rh Michael Swales, Ian Wright, Simon Hands, rh Greg Mordaunt, Penny Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Yeo, Mr Tim Harper, Mr Mark Morris, Anne Marie Swinson, Jo Young, rh Sir George Harris, Rebecca Morris, David Swire, rh Mr Hugo Zahawi, Nadhim Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morris, James Syms, Mr Robert Hayes, rh Mr John Mosley, Stephen Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Tellers for the Ayes: Heald, Sir Oliver Mulholland, Greg Teather, Sarah Gavin Barwell and Heath, rh Mr David Munt, Tessa Thurso, rh John Lorely Burt Heaton-Harris, Chris Murray, Sheryll Hemming, John Murrison, Dr Andrew NOES Henderson, Gordon Neill, Robert Hendry, rh Charles Newmark, Mr Brooks Abbott, Ms Diane Clwyd, rh Ann Herbert, rh Nick Newton, Sarah Abrahams, Debbie Coaker, Vernon Hinds, Damian Nokes, Caroline Ali, Rushanara Coffey, Ann Hoban, Mr Mark Norman, Jesse Allen, Mr Graham Connarty, Michael Hollingbery, George Offord, Dr Matthew Anderson, Mr David Cooper, Rosie Hollobone, Mr Philip Ollerenshaw, Eric Ashworth, Jonathan Cooper, rh Yvette Hopkins, Kris Opperman, Guy Bain, Mr William Corbyn, Jeremy Horwood, Martin Ottaway, rh Sir Richard Balls, rh Ed Crausby, Mr David Howarth, Sir Gerald Patel, Priti Banks, Gordon Creagh, Mary Howell, John Pawsey, Mark Barron, rh Kevin Creasy, Stella Hughes, rh Simon Penning, rh Mike Bayley, Sir Hugh Cruddas, Jon Hunter, Mark Penrose, John Begg, Dame Anne Cunningham, Alex Huppert, Dr Julian Percy, Andrew Benn, rh Hilary Cunningham, Mr Jim Hurd, Mr Nick Perry, Claire Benton, Mr Joe Cunningham, Sir Tony James, Margot Phillips, Stephen Berger, Luciana Danczuk, Simon Javid, rh Sajid Pickles, rh Mr Eric Betts, Mr Clive Davidson, Mr Ian Jenkin, Mr Bernard Pincher, Christopher Blackman-Woods, Roberta Davies, Geraint Jenrick, Robert Prisk, Mr Mark Blears, rh Hazel De Piero, Gloria Johnson, Gareth Pritchard, Mark Blenkinsop, Tom Denham, rh Mr John Jones, Andrew Pugh, John Blomfield, Paul Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Jones, rh Mr David Raab, Mr Dominic Blunkett, rh Mr David Doran, Mr Frank Jones, Mr Marcus Randall, rh Sir John Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Doughty, Stephen Kawczynski, Daniel Redwood, rh Mr John Brennan, Kevin Doyle, Gemma Kelly, Chris Reevell, Simon Brown, Lyn Dugher, Michael Kirby, Simon Reid, Mr Alan Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Eagle, Ms Angela Knight, rh Sir Greg Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Brown, Mr Russell Eagle, Maria Kwarteng, Kwasi Robertson, rh Sir Hugh Bryant, Chris Edwards, Jonathan Lancaster, Mark Robertson, Mr Laurence Burden, Richard Ellman, Mrs Louise Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Rosindell, Andrew Campbell, rh Mr Alan Engel, Natascha Latham, Pauline Rudd, Amber Campbell, Mr Ronnie Esterson, Bill Leadsom, Andrea Russell, Sir Bob Caton, Martin Evans, Chris Lee, Dr Phillip Rutley, David Champion, Sarah Farrelly, Paul Leech, Mr John Sanders, Mr Adrian Chapman, Jenny Fitzpatrick, Jim Lefroy, Jeremy Sandys, Laura Clark, Katy Flynn, Paul Leigh, Sir Edward Scott, Mr Lee Clarke, rh Mr Tom Fovargue, Yvonne 1373 Section 5 of the European 24 MARCH 2015 Section 5 of the European 1374 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Francis, Dr Hywel Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Pearce, Teresa Stuart, Ms Gisela Gapes, Mike Love, Mr Andrew Perkins, Toby Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Gardiner, Barry Lucas, Caroline Phillipson, Bridget Tami, Mark Gilmore, Sheila Lucas, Ian Pound, Stephen Thomas, Mr Gareth Glindon, Mrs Mary MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Qureshi, Yasmin Thornberry, Emily Goodman, Helen Mactaggart, rh Fiona Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Timms, rh Stephen Greatrex, Tom Malhotra, Seema Reed, Mr Jamie Trickett, Jon Green, Kate Mann, John Reed, Mr Steve Turner, Karl Griffith, Nia Marsden, Mr Gordon Robertson, Angus Twigg, Derek Hain, rh Mr Peter McCabe, Steve Robertson, John Twigg, Stephen Hamilton, Mr David McCann, Mr Michael Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Umunna, Mr Chuka Hamilton, Fabian McCarthy, Kerry Rotheram, Steve Vaz, Valerie Hanson, rh Mr David McClymont, Gregg Roy, Mr Frank Watson, Mr Tom Harman, rh Ms Harriet McDonagh, Siobhain Roy, Lindsay Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Harris, Mr Tom McDonald, Andy Ruane, Chris Whitehead, Dr Alan Havard, Mr Dai McDonnell, John Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Williams, Hywel Healey, rh John McFadden, rh Mr Pat Sarwar, Anas Wilson, Phil Hepburn, Mr Stephen McGovern, Alison Sawford, Andy Winnick, Mr David Heyes, David McGuire, rh Dame Anne Seabeck, Alison Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Hilling, Julie McInnes, Liz Sheerman, Mr Barry Wishart, Pete Hodge, rh Margaret McKechin, Ann Sheridan, Jim Woodcock, John Hood, Mr Jim McKenzie, Mr Iain Shuker, Gavin Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Hopkins, Kelvin Meale, Sir Alan Skinner, Mr Dennis Wright, David Howarth, rh Mr George Mearns, Ian Slaughter, Mr Andy Wright, Mr Iain Irranca-Davies, Huw Miller, Andrew Smith, Angela Jamieson, Cathy Mitchell, Austin Smith, Nick Tellers for the Noes: Jarvis, Dan Morden, Jessica Spellar, rh Mr John Nic Dakin and Johnson, rh Alan Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Straw, rh Mr Jack Graham Jones Johnson, Diana Morris, Grahame M. Jones, Helen (Easington) Question accordingly agreed to. Jones, Mr Kevan Munn, Meg Jones, Susan Elan Murphy, rh Mr Jim Resolved, Kane, Mike Murphy, rh Paul That this House approves, for the purposes of section 5 of the Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Murray, Ian European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993, the Government’s Keeley, Barbara Nandy, Lisa assessment as set out in Budget 2015 and Autumn Statement Khan, rh Sadiq Nuttall, Mr David 2014, combined with the Office for Budget Responsibility’s Economic Lavery, Ian O’Donnell, Fiona and Fiscal Outlook (2015) and Fiscal Sustainability Report (2014), Lazarowicz, Mark Osborne, Sandra which forms the basis of the United Kingdom’s Convergence Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Owen, Albert Programme. 1375 24 MARCH 2015 Counter-terrorism 1376

Counter-terrorism further and higher education institutions will have the same requirement to have particular regard to the need to ensure freedom of speech and the importance of 5.11 pm academic freedom while complying with the Prevent The Minister for Security and Immigration (James duty as their counterparts in England and Wales. It has Brokenshire): I beg to move, always been the Government’s intention that provisions in part 5 of the Act would apply to bodies in Scotland. That the draft Counter-Terrorism and Security Act 2015 (Risk of Being Drawn into Terrorism) (Amendment and Guidance) We have consulted Scottish Ministers, and they are Regulations 2015, which were laid before this House on 12 March, supportive of adding Scottish bodies to the duty. be approved. Thirdly and finally, the regulations will bring into effect guidance issued under section 29(1) of the Act for Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With this specified authorities in carrying out the Prevent duty. we shall take the following motion: The guidance sets out the detail of what that duty will That the Civil Procedure (Amendment) Rules 2015 (S.I., 2015, mean in practice for authorities subject to it, and seeks No. 406), dated 26 February 2015, a copy of which was laid to explain the steps that should be taken to best secure before this House on 27 February, be approved. compliance. The House will recall that the Government introduced James Brokenshire: This secondary legislation has an amendment to the Bill to ensure that the guidance been brought forward to implement measures in the will only take effect following Parliament’s approval. Counter-Terrorism and Security Act 2015. The measures During the passage of the Bill, a formal public consultation were debated by the House very recently and the primary on the draft guidance took place, and hon. Members legislation was enacted only on 12 February. During will have read the summary of responses referenced in Parliament’s consideration of the legislation, there was the explanatory memorandum. More than 1,700 responses widespread recognition of the threat from terrorism were received during the consultation, and another 300 and broad support for the measures in the Bill. The people were reached over the course of five events held instruments bring to life two of those important provisions. in London, Manchester, Birmingham, Cardiff, and In passing the legislation in February, the House accepted Edinburgh. The responses enabled a thorough revision the need for these measures. to take place, and the results of that revision are now I should inform the House that the Joint Committee before the House. on Statutory Instruments has considered both the There are two versions of the guidance: one for instruments we are debating. I place on the record my authorities in England and Wales, and a separate one appreciation for the forbearance that was shown by the for authorities in Scotland. Following discussions with Chair and members of the Committee in considering the Scottish Government, the Government decided that the instruments outside the normal time scales. The separate guidance that specifically addresses the particular Committee cleared the Counter-Terrorism and Security circumstances of Scotland would be more helpful than Act 2015 (Risk of Being Drawn into Terrorism) trying to address those circumstances through one set (Amendment and Guidance) Regulations 2015, but drew of guidance. The Scottish guidance has also been subject the attention of both Houses of Parliament to the Civil to consultation through a targeted process undertaken Procedure (Amendment) Rules 2015. I shall return to by the Scottish Government. the issues that were highlighted by the Joint Committee later in my contribution. Hon. Members will have noted that neither document addresses the issue of managing speakers and events in It may help the House in its consideration of the further and higher education institutions. How universities instruments if I briefly outline what the Government and colleges balance the Prevent duty with the need to seek to achieve by them and why we have brought them secure freedom of speech and have regard to the importance forward at this time. The regulations have been brought of academic freedom is an extremely important issue forward in respect of part 5 of the 2015 Act, which is that requires careful consideration. On account of that, concerned with reducing the risk of people being drawn the Government amended the legislation to ensure that into terrorism. During the recent debates on the primary institutions pay particular regard to the importance of legislation, there was a very informed debate on the academic freedom and freedom of speech when complying duty that is imposed by section 26 of the Act, which is with the Prevent duty. As I made clear during the known as the Prevent duty. The regulations are crucial passage of the Bill, that freedom is important in challenging to the effective implementation of the new duty. extremist views and providing almost an antidote to The purpose of the regulations is threefold. First, some of the extremism that might take place were it not they amend schedules 6 and 7 to the 2015 Act to add for that challenge. We shall use the time before the duty Scottish bodies to the list of authorities that are subject commences to produce further guidance on managing to the Prevent duty and to those that are listed as speakers and events in further and higher education partners to local authority panels, which are required to institutions, and it will be for the next Government to be in place by section 36. Those panels form part of the bring that to Parliament early in the next Session for the Channel programme—the deradicalisation programme—in approval of both Houses. England and Wales, and Prevent Professional Concerns in Scotland, which are programmes designed to provide Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con): In the context of support to those who are vulnerable to being drawn human rights legislation, and particularly the Human into terrorism. Rights Act 1998 and the charter of fundamental rights, Secondly, the regulations make a number of amendments which is increasingly being brought in by the European to the Act that are consequential on adding those Court of Justice, does the Minister believe that these Scottish bodies. In particular they ensure that Scottish proposals, and many aspects of the Counter-Terrorism 1377 Counter-terrorism24 MARCH 2015 Counter-terrorism 1378

[Sir William Cash] a generational struggle. Bringing forward the guidance and the Prevent duty underlines the important responsibility and Security Act 2015, will survive against those in the we all have—government, community, family and human rights lobby who are determined to put human individuals—to stand together to ensure that a clear rights ahead even of the prevention of terrorism? and robust message is given. I know that good work is taking place in Cardiff and in many other parts of the James Brokenshire: Yes, I am confident of that. Obviously, country to do precisely that. I welcome the opportunity we considered the implications of the Human Rights to put that on the record this afternoon. Act when the primary legislation was taken through this I would like to turn now to the Civil Procedure House. That does not necessarily mean that it will not (Amendment) Rules 2015. The Counter-Terrorism and be subject to legal challenge—we have legal challenge Security Act 2015 introduced temporary exclusion orders, for all forms of legislation—but we are confident about which enable the Secretary of State to disrupt and the way the measure has been brought forward, and it control the return to the UK of certain British citizens touches on the competency of member states in national suspected of engaging in terrorism-related activity abroad. security issues. I recognise the long-standing and consistent TEOs also enable the Secretary of State to impose approach that my hon. Friend has highlighted, and I certain requirements on individuals on their return to am sure he will continue to highlight it to ensure that we the UK. get legislation in the right place and properly consider The House will recall that the Government introduced human rights challenges and other issues in that regard. two stages of judicial oversight of this power during the I welcome his intervention. passage of the Bill. The first stage requires the Secretary As for the guidance itself, it is essential that it is of State to seek permission from the courts prior to accurate and workable for all institutions. It is not the imposing a TEO or, in exceptional circumstances, to Government’s intention that the duty in respect of seek such permission from the courts retrospectively. higher education and further education institutions should The second stage provides a statutory review mechanism commence for those sectors until guidance on speakers to enable the TEO subject to challenge the imposition and events has been published. This, as I have explained, of the order and any obligations imposed on their will of course be for the next Government to carry return to the UK. That judicial oversight was introduced through. in response to concerns raised by right hon. and hon. It is important to take the opportunity to remind the Members on all sides of the House, and was welcomed House of the purpose of the new duty and its importance. during consideration of the amendments made in another The emergence of ISIL and the number of people— place. particularly vulnerable, young people—who have The Civil Procedure (Amendment) Rules 2015 are misguidedly travelled to Syria and Iraq present a heightened required to implement this judicial oversight in England threat to our national security. The intelligence agencies and Wales. The instrument introduces the court rules tell us that the threat is now worse than at any time since for temporary exclusion order proceedings in the High 9/11. It is serious and it is growing. The threat has Court and appeals to the Court of Appeal, which are changed and so must our response. essential to ensure we are able to operate the appropriate safeguards for this power. I have already mentioned that As part of that response, we need to continue to the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments has reported combat the underlying ideology that feeds, supports this instrument and drawn it to the attention of the and sanctions terrorism, and to prevent people from House. being drawn on to that path. The Prevent duty will ensure that such activity is consistent across the country The Government have acknowledged the issues raised and in all bodies whose staff work on the front line with by the Joint Committee and committed to updating the those at risk from radicalisation. rules by an amending instrument as soon as practicable. That amending instrument will be made by the Civil Procedure Rule Committee, and I can assure the House Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ that the process for doing so is already under way. Co-op): Will the Minister place on record his support However, as the Government made clear in their response for the work being done by a group in my constituency to the Joint Committee, we do not consider that the to tackle the root causes and extremist ideologies that drafting errors acknowledged render the rules invalid or have been affecting people in Cardiff? They are doing inoperable. The court rules are required in order to fantastic work as part of the Movement for Change implement the important judicial oversight of TEOs in “Make a Choice, See a Change” campaign online and England and Wales. with their peers to combat ideology that may have affected some people in their community. Sir William Cash: My hon. Friend can probably guess that I am about to ask a question similar to my James Brokenshire: I commend the hon. Gentleman last one about judicial oversight, the charter and human for highlighting the work of community groups in his rights legislation. I am sure he recognises that there is a constituency. Some incredible people and organisations potentiality, if not a certainty, that these matters will be are standing up against terrorism, highlighting the peaceful challenged, particularly the exclusion orders. Does he nature of the Islamic religion and challenging some of not think that there is still time to consider imposing a the ideological underpinning that has been perversely restriction on those who have repudiated allegiance to twisted by those who support ISIL and other terrorist the UK to prevent their returning to the country? and extremist organisations. It is the work of community, family and people in the locality and the neighbourhood James Brokenshire: My hon. Friend tempts me into a that is making a real difference in standing together and broader debate that extends beyond the statutory confronting and combating pernicious ideology. This is instruments and deals with preventing from returning 1379 Counter-terrorism24 MARCH 2015 Counter-terrorism 1380 to this country people who have engaged in activity That was not the only poor decision that the Government contrary to the interests of this country. This issue was made, either. They reduced funding for Prevent from considered at length in this House and the other place, £17 million to £5.1 million a year, but not all of that and it was determined that TEOs were the appropriate £5.1 million was spent. In one year, just £1.6 million was mechanism, considering our international obligations spent and overall, since the Government re-launched and the issues he highlighted of legal challenge and the Prevent agenda, just 40% of the money allocated to ensuring an effective mechanism. We judge that the local authorities was spent. TEOs provide this, but we recognise the potential for Prevent is meant to be a national and comprehensive challenge. Indeed, we have built in an oversight process strategy, yet last year just four areas delivered Prevent through the scrutiny of the judiciary. projects. We have seen particular failings from some I hope that I can assure my hon. Friend that the rules Government Departments. The 2011 Prevent review are based on those used for similar preventive measures, identified the need to support schools in counter- such as terrorism prevention and investigation measures, radicalisation. The Department for Education committed some asset-seizing legislation and closed material to an 11-point plan, none of which seems to have been proceedings, and therefore are based on the experience delivered. and judicial oversight applied to those rules. I hope that The Home Secretary is threatening schools and gives him some assurance of the careful consideration universities with contempt of court proceedings if they we have given to the rules. do not implement the Prevent agenda, while I think the Government have serious questions to answer about Sir William Cash: I raised this question precisely their failures to deliver on their own commitments. because of my concerns about how the judiciary is Some of us believe that the Government need to get effectively subordinated to the European Court of Justice, their own house in order before challenging other which overrides not only our Supreme Court but this institutions and public bodies. Parliament. On matters concerning TPIMs, control orders What is also a matter of real concern is that, overall, and the rest of it, the Minister knows that people who the Government appear to have little hard evidence should never have been allowed out have continued about what Prevent work is going on or how effectively their stay. it has been delivered. We know that the Home Office’s chief economist refused to sign off the impact assessment James Brokenshire: I can assure my hon. Friend that to the Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill on that TPIMs are robust and that we have taken steps to basis. ensure their legal compliance. That was considered when they were introduced and during the passage of the Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Act 2011. James Brokenshire: The hon. Lady made this point I fear that I am straying from the statutory instruments, about the impact assessment the other day. Will she but I recognise his challenge and assure him that our acknowledge that the matter to which she refers is in the consideration of the rules reflected our experience of regulations before us this afternoon and that there is similar orders and some of the operational legal practice also the Scottish duty? She has completely mischaracterised that the rules intend to operate. this point. The regulations are needed to implement effectively Diana Johnson: I know that when we discussed the the Prevent duty across England, Wales and Scotland, primary legislation around the Counter-Terrorism and which ultimately will help the Government and law- Security Bill, it was reported that the chief economist at enforcement agencies to keep the country safe from the Home Office did say what I suggested, so the terrorism, and the court rules govern proceedings that Minister has not refuted the statement I made. We now are essential to ensure appropriate safeguards for the know from the Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill TEO. With those comments, I hope the House will be that there has been recognition that the Prevent agenda minded to support the instruments. matters and needs to be supported. Yesterday, of course, the Home Secretary went even 5.29 pm further, talking about introducing a counter-extremism Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): I strategy, although I understand that such a strategy has thank the Minister for introducing these regulations. It not been published and there is not much detail about is important to understand the measures in the Counter- it. Today, however, the Home Secretary has made several Terrorism and Security Bill and the implementation of claims. She first promised to work with communities in the Prevent agenda in the context, I think, of some of a way that different parts of different communities the muddle the Government have created for themselves around the country have been requesting for some time. over the past five years. In 2010, they inherited 93 She promised that she would be very clear about Prevent priority areas and in one year they cut them to distinguishing between Islam and Islamic extremism. 23. They then restored funding to seven areas, including All that is very welcome and, I have to say to the Greenwich, to bring us back up to 30 priority areas. Minister, about time too. From next year, the Government will be increasing the The guidance in front of us does not, however, go as number of priority areas to 50 and in their impact far as it should in meeting the pledges the Home Secretary assessment on the Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill, made yesterday, but I do want to say some positive the Government revealed that they expect this to rise to things about it. As the Minister knows, the original 90 areas over the next few years. In two years, then, we guidance was put out to consultation over the Christmas may be back where we started five years ago, but we recess period, and I think improvements have been have lost seven years thanks to the muddle coming from made to it. The document is less prescriptive throughout, the Government. so it can plausibly be said to be introducing the risk-based 1381 Counter-terrorism24 MARCH 2015 Counter-terrorism 1382

[Diana Johnson] referred to the Channel programme have been accepted. The overwhelming majority are incorrectly referred, approach that the Government said they wanted from because front-line professionals have misunderstood the outset. I welcome, too, the introduction of a clear the nature of the issues involved. set of commitments on what the Home Office will do to It was a failure of the Government not to fulfil the support the implementation of the Prevent agenda. commitments made in the 2011 Prevent review to improve This has been clearly lacking, I think, since the Prevent front-line understanding of extremism, and it is agenda was re-launched in 2011. disappointing that they are repeating their mistake by Let me briefly mention Scotland. It is good to see the failing to include in the guidance either a detailed inclusion of the Scottish organisations. I listened carefully explanation of what constitutes extremism, or an to what the Minister said about the consultation with explanation of how a risk assessment for extremism the Scottish Government and the inclusion of the various should be conducted. In Committee, I gave the analogy Scottish organisations, but I should like to ask him a of child abuse: we will combat the issue only when we question. There is separate guidance for the Scottish fully recognise it for what it is. organisations, but I understand that it was not issued The failure to define extremism properly also means for full consultation. The Minister said earlier that there that the guidance fails to live up to the promise that the was a targeted process for the consultation. Will he Home Secretary made yesterday to distinguish clearly explain what he meant by that? between Islam and Islamic extremism. The definition of Islamic extremism is limited: an Islamic extremist is Sir William Cash: Would the hon. Lady be good described as someone who is angry with the west and enough to tell us to what extent, if any, she has taken resents western intervention in wars in Muslim countries. the opportunity to discover the views of the Scottish The guidance talks of a “them and us” rhetoric. That nationalists on this question? Has she had any indication ignores the fact that the majority of the victims of of their views? They are not even here, but I am sure Islamic extremists are Muslims, and the fact that those that she can provide us with a fairly good guess as to who are most likely to encounter it in the United what they might think. We did hear Alex Salmond Kingdom are Muslims. There is still nothing in the suggest the other day that they would be putting their guidance about intra-Islam sectarianism, such as involving foot down on matters that they thought were important Wahhabis, Salafists and those with other views that to Scotland, in their own terms. have been specifically connected to ISIL, in particular Salafism. There is no discussion of that important Diana Johnson: During the Bill’s passage, as the hon. matter in the document. The Counter-Terrorism and Gentleman will know, members of the Scottish National Security Act 2015 was supposedly a response to that party made a great deal of fuss about the involvement rising threat from ISIL-related terrorism. Does the Minister of the Scottish Government in consultation about the think more can be done in recognising that intra-Islamic public institutions in Scotland that would be affected by sectarianism is not properly addressed in the guidance? the Prevent agenda. I was pleased to hear the Minister Those British people who have been leaving the UK refer to the level of consultation that had taken place to join ISIL are not generally joining a war against the with the Scottish Government. I may be presuming too west. They are joining a war against other Muslims, much, but perhaps the absence of members of the mainly Shi’as. This document should recognise the changing Scottish National party this afternoon means that they nature of this threat, and the need to recognise the are fully content with what is being proposed. Obviously degree of sectarian division related to groups such as we must wait and see, but there is no one here to put an ISIL within the UK. alternative case. In addition to this thematic problem within the guidance, Let me now deal with some of the areas in which the I want to highlight some of the practical issues. The revisions of the guidance have not addressed some of consultation highlighted confusion over what exactly the shortcomings that I considered to be present in the was expected of non-Prevent-priority local authorities. first draft of the document. I believe that they have been Given that the Government seemed to be confused raised both here and in the other place, and also in the about exactly what a Prevent-priority area is, I am not responses to the consultation. The Minister said that terribly surprised that this is not addressed properly in there had been more than 1,700 responses, which is a the revised guidance. There is existing confusion about very large number. the role of central Government and the division of The first of those areas is the definition of extremism, responsibilities within central Government. For example, which remains unchanged in the guidance. It is still how exactly is the burden of oversight shared between defined as, basically, “an opposition to British values”. the body specifically charged with inspection of The failure to define extremism is central to other implementation—for example, Ofsted for schools—the problems that the Prevent agenda encounters, as was Government Department with responsibility for that recognised in the 2011 Prevent review. Front-line public body, for example the Department for Education, professionals do not properly understand what extremism and the Home Office? What about the role of Departments, is. There is considerable evidence of that poor such as the Departments for Business, Innovation and understanding. A survey conducted for the Department Skills and for Communities and Local Government, in for Education in 2011 revealed that 70% of schools felt sharing good practice? that they needed more training and information in Several different bodies raised concerned about this order to build resilience to radicalisation. That was in the consultation. It will be helpful if the Government picked up repeatedly in the consultation responses, and publish a clear strategy as to how they will help promote it is also a clear issue in relation to the Prevent agenda. best practice in relation to Prevent. Some of the obligations We know that only 20% of the people who have been on certain bodies are unclear. Neither the guidance, nor 1383 Counter-terrorism24 MARCH 2015 Counter-terrorism 1384 the Minister in the other place yesterday, have been party be in favour of putting terrorism on a par with or clear as to exactly what is expected of a nursery or ahead of human rights? We have heard suggestions childminder in terms of their responsibilities under recently that human rights should trump terrorism. Prevent. So I ask the Minister again today to set out exactly what this guidance means in practice for a Diana Johnson: That question opens up a whole new childminder. debate. We are dealing here with two specific statutory An issue raised in the consultation, which I also instruments. I know that there has been some tension in raised during the passage of the 2015 Act, was why the the coalition, particularly in the Treasury, with the only NHS bodies to be included in the guidance are Chancellor delivering his Budget and a separate Budget hospital trusts and foundation trusts. Under the Health being delivered by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, and Social Care Act 2012 many more services are now and I wanted to be clear about whether this particular going out to the private sector. Are those private companies proposal was Government policy or just Conservative going to be covered by the obligations under Prevent? policy. I was seeking guidance on that. Why are clinical commissioning groups and other The focus on external speakers could create the risk commissioning bodies not included? General practitioners that we ignore internal extremists. Where in the guidance at the front line may come across people who are is the specific reference to that threat? What would vulnerable and who may perhaps have mental health happen if a university’s Sunni society was agitating issues; should GPs also be under some of the Prevent against the university’s Islamic or Shi’a societies? Have duties set out in the guidance, and if not, why not? On the Government considered the implications of such a the health and wellbeing boards that the Government situation for a university’s best practice? established, I assume that because they are part of a While we are talking about universities, I also want to local authority, they also have a Prevent duty. ask about the IT requirements. The guidance seems to On the provisions for universities, I am glad the imply that all universities should introduce the filtering guidance is less prescriptive than before. The new guidance of internet access through the university. Can the Minister has dropped the requirement that all academic presentations explain the degree of filtering that would be involved? Is have to be submitted and vetted two weeks in advance, he confident that software exists that can do the job which was both absurd and unworkable. However, it is accurately? In the past, the platforms most commonly bizarre that the third paragraph of the guidance relating associated with extremism have been Facebook, Twitter to universities states that further guidance will be issued and YouTube. Would students be prevented from accessing to cover extremist speakers on campuses. As the Minister YouTube? Does the Minister expect this provision to will be aware, that was one the most contentious issues. apply in accommodation provided by the university, Yesterday the Minister in the other place did not seem such as halls of residence or other housing provided to to be able to explain why this was or how the issuing of accommodate students? Can he confirm that the provision updated guidance would work. I heard what the Minister will not extend to a requirement for universities to said about the new guidance being a matter for the next collect data on internet sites accessed by their students? Government, but I wonder whether he can answer the following questions. Does he think the requirement for We know that the Oxford and Cambridge unions, all speeches and presentations to be submitted two both of which are private institutions that have a history weeks in advance will be included in the new guidance? of giving a platform to high-profile racists and extremists, are excluded from the terms of the guidance. Why did Secondly, can the Minister explain how the external the Government choose not to specify in either the Bill speakers guidance will be implemented? Will it require a or the Prevent guidance that those organisations should separate statutory instrument and, therefore, approval be covered by the duty? by Parliament? Will the rest of the document have different implementation guidance from the external There are measures in the guidance that we very speakers guidance? Will there be a separate consultation? much welcome. We recognise that it has been significantly improved since the draft guidance was published over James Brokenshire: I can answer the hon. Lady directly. Christmas. Most importantly, we recognise that it is an Our contemplation is that there would need to be extremely important document. Counter-extremism is a updated guidance and that a separate statutory instrument vital part of our counter-terrorism strategy. But there would therefore need to be approved by the House after are some flaws, which I have identified, that show that the general election. the Government are playing catch-up at the end of this Parliament for neglecting counter-extremism for their Diana Johnson: That is very helpful, and I thank the first four years. Because of that, we are not where we Minister for his straightforward response. should be today. Yesterday, the Home Secretary announced that compliance with the Prevent agenda would be a requirement I wish briefly to discuss the second statutory instrument for universities in order that they may sponsor international before us, which sets out the procedural rules of judicial student visas. Will the Minister explain whether this is hearings in relation to temporary exclusion orders. Thanks Government policy that will actually happen, or whether to the Opposition, the 2015 Act contains judicial oversight it is a Conservative party pledge for the election? I am for TEOs. I welcome the provisions in the Act and in drawing this distinction because I understand that the these regulations today, which will enable judicial coalition Government are not speaking with one voice proceedings to hear sensitive and confidential information. on counter-terrorism issues these days, and I want to be It has always been the Opposition’s position that strong clear about whether that is Government policy or not. powers, such as TEOs, require strong checks on this power, and these regulations will enable those strong Sir William Cash: The hon. Lady has alluded to checks. Of course, the need to protect sources and questions that might arise between the Conservative sensitive information will impinge on the operation of party and the Liberal party on terrorism. Would her the courts, but, as we have seen with control orders and 1385 Counter-terrorism24 MARCH 2015 Counter-terrorism 1386

[Diana Johnson] I conclude with this thought: we have not got it right. As I said in that letter in The Sunday Telegraph, tinkering subsequently TPIMs, that does not mean the courts with control orders, TPIMs and the rest of it, might go cannot provide an effective check on Executive power. some way to dealing with the problem but it will not We think these regulations will be able to do that. We resolve the issue if people can launch a challenge in the would add a slight caveat: the regulations are complex, courts based on human rights or the charter of fundamental as are the proceedings they are covering. We hope the rights. They will not be deported and they will not be Government will commit to keeping them under review dealt with. and will be prepared to come back to this House with In the Prevention of Terrorism (No. 2) Bill that I amendments if issues do arise during court proceedings introduced in 2005, I proposed that we should override that require the passing of further legislation. the human rights laws to ensure the security of the citizens of this country. I said that habeas corpus was 5.51 pm absolutely fundamental. All people who are accused of Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con): In the couple of a crime, whether of terrorism or anything else, are interventions I made on the Minister and on the shadow entitled to a fair trial and due process. If we have those Minister, I returned to a point I made in the lead letter two things, and we override the Human Rights Act and in The Sunday Telegraph of 8 March. Following its lead the charter, we are in a position to deal with the problems, of the previous week, I said that we were talking not to satisfy the requirements of fair and judicial process about just an accident, but about a failure of legislation and to ensure that the people have a proper trial. in dealing with the question of human rights and the My final thought is on this question of whether charter of fundamental rights in relation to all the terrorists can get away with what they do. We know that matters we are now discussing and to the whole problem there are many sleeping terrorists, so we are talking of counter-terrorism. The Minister has had a pretty about a question not of if there is some form of terrorism, hard time from me over the past couple of years on but of when. We should remember that the charter of this subject, but I wish to say to him that I acknowledge fundamental rights, which came in under the Lisbon that difficult issues are clearly involved here. I am not treaty, is much more difficult to deal with than the denying that for a minute. But many of us were deeply Human Rights Act, because of sections 2 and 3 of the disturbed when in a recent discussion—I cannot give European Communities Act 1972. In the context of the precise details but I am paraphrasing—the question the judicial process as a whole, it is imperative to recall arose as to whether taking action against terrorism that those on both Front Benches during the Lisbon would have human rights consequences. In that instance, treaty debates wanted to exclude that charter. the human rights lobby indicated that human rights In one of his last statements to the House, Tony Blair, should prevail. the then Prime Minister, said that we had an opt-out I find that view completely impossible to understand, from the charter. We in the European Scrutiny Committee not least because the first human right is the right to be took evidence on that matter. Lord Goldsmith, who secure—the second, and equal, human right is the right analysed and negotiated the arrangements in the Lisbon to life. We have only to consider what happened in the treaty, gave evidence. Sadly, those arrangements did not case of Lee Rigby or in the case of the terrible murders work and we are now finding that the European Court that have been taking place in parts of the middle east of Justice is continuously getting involved in applying to realise the difficulty that such a view represents. On the charter on a case-by-case basis. My concerns about the simple proposition that human rights does not the charter remain in relation to terrorism. Unless we trump terrorism, we have to be absolutely clear. I am resolve that, we will not be able, either under these very glad to see a slight nod from the shadow Minister, orders or other terrorism legislation in general, to provide because she knows that this is true. But the trouble is the security and stability that the people of this country that there is a tremendous amount in these documents—I deserve. will not make a long speech on this, but will simply get it on the record. We discussed judicial oversight in relation Mr Speaker: I was pleased to hear the words counter- to an amendment when these matters were before the terrorism towards the end of the hon. Gentleman’s House of Commons. I cannot remember whether the oration. We are all reassured. amendment was defeated or withdrawn, but it then 5.58 pm went into the House of Lords and it was that shambolic debate that we recall. Judicial oversight has now come Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): I am tempted in. My point is about the substance of the issue: if to respond to some of the points made by the hon. judicial oversight is part and parcel of these issues Member for Stone (Sir William Cash), but, in the before us today, then on the basis that the judges have to interests of time, I will not. obey the law and the law does invoke the question of In his opening remarks, the Minister underlined the human rights, be it under the European convention on widespread recognition, on both sides of the House, of human rights and the Human Rights Act, or the more the need to combat the threat of terrorism. That recognition, difficult and invasive charter of fundamental rights, I am sure, exists well beyond the House, among people which is justiciable by the European Court of Justice, of all faiths and none, and nowhere more so than in my we have got a real problem on our hands in dealing with constituency where I have a strong Muslim community. terrorism. The reason why many people whom we have It is a tragedy for communities, for families and for the tried to deport—in some cases for more than a decade— young people themselves who get sucked into the tyranny were not deported was to do with human rights. Everybody of the so-called Islamic State. Certainly those in my should be in favour of human rights, but there are local Muslim community are quick to point out that questions over how they are applied and what the that is an abuse of words, because Islamic State is procedures and thresholds are. neither Islamic nor a state. 1387 Counter-terrorism24 MARCH 2015 Counter-terrorism 1388

We need to be clear and to take care in our response may find themselves in a time-wasting and expensive to the threat of terrorism that we do not exacerbate the legal quagmire, which apart from anything else sits problem by reacting in way that further alienates some uncomfortably with the Government’s views on unnecessary sections of our communities. The risk of that has been red tape. made clear to me during my recent visits to mosques in My second concern relates to the general duty placed my constituency by the very people who feel passionately on universities to act against what is described as non-violent that we need to resist the threat of terrorism. We also extremism, and it echoes a point made by my hon. need to be careful not to respond in a way that puts Friend the shadow Minister. Non-violent extremism is undeliverable responsibilities on our institutions, and it defined in the guidance as: is to that point that I will speak briefly, raising concerns “opposition to fundamental British values, including democracy, about the guidance regarding higher education that the rule of law, individual liberty and mutual respect and tolerance”. apply equally to the section on further education. It is absolutely right to describe those values as fundamental Universities, like all public organisations, have clear to our society, but they are meaningful only if they responsibilities under the Human Rights Act to ensure allow space for those who do not share them. Clearly, as freedom of expression, but universities have unique I said a moment ago in response to an intervention additional responsibilities. I am pleased that the Minister from the hon. Member for Stone (Sir William Cash), acknowledged that in his opening speech, when he society does impose limits—for example, on incitement spoke about the need to balance the struggle against to racial hatred—but such limits have created crimes terrorism and the implementation of the guidance with defined by this Parliament. The difficulty here is that we the responsibility to maintain academic freedom and are giving our universities a responsibility to ban activities the opportunity for debate in our institutions of higher which are not themselves illegal, where the act of banning education. I am pleased also that, in response to my them may be seen by some to be in conflict with the very hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North values that we are trying to protect. (Diana Johnson), he made it clear that the guidance We treasure our universities as the institutions that would not take effect until the guidance on speakers is need to be able to debate our fundamental values. It was approved, not simply published as he said in his opening for that reason that the then Conservative Government remarks—clearly, it was a slip of the tongue. It is included provisions on freedom of speech in the 1986 Act. reassuring that approval of the further guidance is We need to take great care when we legislate on these needed before the rest takes effect. issues, and I fear that the guidance as it stands leaves The Minister will know, because I have mentioned it too many unanswered questions. before, that 29 years ago, in my previous career in the universities sector, I drafted a code of practice on 6.5 pm freedom of speech for the university of Sheffield. That was required in every university across the country James Brokenshire: I am grateful for the contributions under the Education (No. 2) Act 1986, introduced by this afternoon and the broad support for the two orders the then Conservative Government, with the aim of that we have been discussing. A number of the contributions ensuring that universities maintained that commitment strayed into the broader principles and issues surrounding to freedom of speech. The hon. Gentleman will know counter-terrorism. I shall not detain the House by repeating that the Act imposes on universities a duty to ensure a Second Reading debate on the Counter-Terrorism that use of their premises and Security Act 2015, but some important points were raised and I wish to challenge some of the underlying “is not denied to any individual or body of persons on any assumptions. ground connected with…the beliefs or views of that individual”. For example, in respect of Prevent and the Prevent We considered that when we debated the Counter- duty that this guidance refers to, the hon. Member for Terrorism and Security Bill, now the 2015 Act, but I Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) made a think it remains unclear—I hope the consultation will number of assertions about the actions of this Government, produce some clarity—how the requirements of the and those assertions should be challenged. She asserted 1986 Act sit alongside the responsibilities in paragraph 105 that there had been some muddle. The only muddle was of the guidance. the thinking of the Labour Government in their delivery of Prevent, and the fact that they conflated work on Sir William Cash: Is the hon. Gentleman asserting integration with combating terrorism activity, which that there is an absolute right to freedom of speech in stood in the way of doing that work effectively. That is all circumstances? Does he place any limitation on it? why this Government were right to make a clear separation between the two parts of the work to ensure that they Paul Blomfield: No, I am not asserting that. The right were effective. of freedom of speech is conditional in a number of The hon. Lady made various assertions about the ways. We have put in place legislation against incitement activity that had taken place. Perhaps I can give her to racial hatred, for example. It is a question of how to some figures, rather than the ones that she cited. I do get the balance right. not know where she got them from and I certainly do My point is that we need to avoid conflicting legislation, not recognise them. We have delivered more than and there is a potential conflict between the guidance 180 projects since 2011 under Prevent. The programme and the 1986 Act. For example, what position would a has reached more than 55,000 people. This year we are university be in if an action were brought by a third supporting more than 80 projects. We have provided a party to challenge a decision made under the focus that did not exist under the Labour Government provisions of this guidance on the basis of the university’s and, to judge from the shadow Minister’s comments, responsibility under the 1986 Act? Unless there is absolute would not exist under Labour now. It has been useful to clarity when the final guidance is published, universities tease that out in the course of the debate. 1389 Counter-terrorism24 MARCH 2015 Counter-terrorism 1390

[James Brokenshire] indicated. I think it is important that there is a good understanding of the full guidance and how it relates in I heard the point highlighted by my hon. Friend the that manner. Member for Stone (Sir William Cash) in relation to freedom, liberty and security, a subject to which he has Stephen Doughty: The Minister will be aware that I rightly returned on a number of occasions. He spoke have previously raised concerns about that with him about the issue of human rights and how that may and with other Ministers. Given the context of devolution, impact on the court rules and the orders before us this particularly in the universities sector but also in education afternoon. As the lead Minister who was responsible more generally, is it not absolutely vital that there are for the successful deportation of Abu Qatada from this regular, proactive discussions between universities and country, I well understand the challenges posed by Education Ministers across the United Kingdom, and human rights issues in the context of the Government’s will he ensure that in future there is Cabinet Office actions in seeking to uphold security and the best guidance on how often those matters should be discussed interests of this country. Yes, I think more does need to among Ministers across these islands? be done, but I shall not stray into a broader debate on the need for a British Bill of Rights. Ultimately, liberty James Brokenshire: The Prevent oversight board, which and freedom should reinforce and be reinforced by has an integral role in ensuring that the guidance before security. I do not see that as an either/or. They should the House is properly recognised, has the ability to be two sides of the same coin and support each other. share good practice, and indeed the issues on adherence This is no doubt an issue that will be returned to in the to it. That will provide a good mechanism for drawing next Parliament, continuing the debate that took place Government together. It also needs to have good contact in this one. with the devolved Administrations. As the hon. Gentleman The hon. Lady referred to the impact assessment and might know, I have already had discussions with the the report that she read in the newspapers. Perhaps I Welsh Government, and I certainly wish to see that may comment on that. The impact assessment looked at continue in relation to the operation of the guidance. I the impact of the specific statutory instrument before also highlight the £40 million allocated for Prevent the House this afternoon, particularly the impact of work in 2014-15 and the fact that the Prime Minister adding Scottish authorities to schedules 6 and 7. Neither announced on 25 November that the additional £130 million the impact assessment, nor the chief economist’s statement that has been made available for increased counter-terrorism were concerned with the Prevent strategy as a whole or work will include additional funding for Prevent. the Prevent duty outside Scotland. I hope that clarification Schools and nurseries have a duty to care for their is helpful. pupils and staff. The new duty will be seen in a similar The hon. Lady also talked about changes in Prevent way to their existing safeguarding responsibilities. The priority areas. Our approach is informed by the changing early years foundation stage framework makes it clear threat picture and by the advice we receive from the that providers must be alert to any safeguarding and joint terrorism analysis centre. It is in that context that child protection issues in a child’s life, either at home or we set priorities, and it is right that we keep these things elsewhere, so the work on the guidance supports and under review. It is not a question of going back to the strengthens that. With regard to training, we have used past, as she wrongly asserts; it is about the here and Prevent to train literally tens of thousands of people to now, meeting the challenges and threats we face as a raise awareness of the need to adhere to an understanding country and protecting those things that we hold dear, of the issue, the threats and the risks within safeguarding, and that is the Government’s priority. I am sorry that and that approach will certainly be extended further. the hon. Lady has failed to understand the issues at The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North hand. That underlines again why Labour is simply not asked whether we have covered all appropriate health competent to deal with these issues. bodies. The foundation trusts and NHS trusts identified are the most likely to have the most direct contact with As I have said before, the question of how universities people on the front line, with regard to their staff and and colleges balance the Prevent duty with the need to the hospital settings. She referred to the issue of CCGs. secure freedom of speech and have regard to the importance We will certainly keep that under review in terms of of academic freedom is extremely important. The extending the duty to other bodies, and I will have an Government take that extremely seriously, which is why open mind in adding it at that stage. However, a CCG is we amended the legislation to ensure that institutions effectively a commissioning body rather than a body must have particular regard to the importance of academic that delivers front-line services, and I hope that she freedom and freedom of speech when complying with understands that distinction. the duty—the point made by the hon. Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield). Diana Johnson: GPs are very much in the front line I reiterate that the Government are clear that and may well come across people who are very vulnerable, universities represent one of our most important perhaps with mental health issues, for whom provision arenas for challenging extremist views and ideologies, needs to be put in place under the Prevent duties that but there is a risk that some people might use higher the other health bodies would have. education institutions as a platform for drawing people into terrorism. We will use the time before the James Brokenshire: GPs are generally sole practitioners, duty commences to produce further guidance on or perhaps partnerships, rather than health bodies. We managing speakers and events in further and higher will continue to keep under review the sharing of the education institutions. It will be for the next Government need to raise awareness of Prevent, which has already to bring that guidance to the House early in the next been rolled out to tens of thousands of front-line health Parliament for approval by both Houses, as I have professionals. 1391 24 MARCH 2015 Business without Debate 1392

The hon. Lady highlighted sectarianism and the different DELEGATED LEGISLATION natures of the threat that we face. Prevent and our Contest counter-terrorism strategy cover all forms of Mr Speaker: With the leave of the House, we shall terrorism, as we have made clear on a number of take motions 12 to 19 together. occasions. I hope she understands that the guidance Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing extends to all forms of terrorism, of whatever nature. Order No. 118(6)), I welcome the broad support—despite some of the comments that have been made—for the two orders, HOUSING and I hope that the House will approve them both. That That the draft Selective Licensing of Houses (Additional will make a difference in the fight against terrorism. It Conditions) (England) Order 2015, which was laid before this will also underline this Government’s commitment to House on 4 March, be approved. ensuring national security and the safety of the public. We have that at the heart of our work and will continue to do so. ENERGY CONSERVATION Question put and agreed to. That the draft Energy Efficiency (Private Rented Property) (England and Wales) Regulations 2015, which were laid before Resolved, this House on 9 March, be approved That the draft Counter-Terrorism and Security Act 2015 (Risk That the draft Energy Efficiency (Domestic Private Rented of Being Drawn into Terrorism) (Amendment and Guidance) Property) Order 2015, which was laid before this House on Regulations 2015, which were laid before this House on 12 4 February, be approved. March, be approved.

PUBLIC HEALTH SENIOR COURTS OF ENGLAND AND WALES That the draft Nicotine Inhaling Products (Age of Sale and Proxy Purchasing) Regulations 2015, which were laid before this Resolved, House on 25 February, be approved. That the Civil Procedure (Amendment) Rules 2015 (S.I., 2015, That the draft Proxy Purchasing of Tobacco, Nicotine Products No. 406), dated 26 February 2015, a copy of which was laid etc. (Fixed Penalty Amount) Regulations 2015, which were laid before this House on 27 February, be approved.—(James Brokenshire.) before this House on 25 February, be approved.

Business without Debate FINANCIAL SERVICES AND MARKETS That the draft Bank of England Act 1998 (Macro-prudential Measures) Order 2015, which was laid before this House on DELEGATED LEGISLATION 12 February, be approved. That the draft Bank of England Act 1998 (Macro-prudential Mr Speaker: With the leave of the House, we shall Measures) (No. 2) Order 2015, which was laid before this House take motions 7 to 10 together. on 12 February, be approved. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing That the draft Mortgage Credit Directive Order 2015, which Order No. 118(6)), was laid before this House on 27 February, be approved.—(Mark Lancaster.) Question agreed to. EXTRADITION That the draft Extradition Act 2003 (Amendment to Designations Mr Speaker: Before I call the petitions to be presented, and Appeals) Order 2015, which was laid before this House on I must explain to the House how we will deal with their 16 January, be approved. large number. I hope colleagues will be forbearing on this matter. NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE We shall deal first with the three petitions on subjects That the draft Local Audit and Accountability Act 2014 not relating to “Eligibility of Members to vote on (Special Trustees) Amendment Regulations 2015, which were laid before this House on 3 February, be approved. certain issues in the House of Commons”. After those petitions have been presented, we will move on to the That the draft False or Misleading Information (Specified Care Providers and Specified Information) Regulations 2015, petitions on “Eligibility of Members to vote on certain which were laid before this House on 11 February, be approved. issues in the House of Commons”. Once the first petition relating to this subject has been read to the House, with its prayer, subsequent petitions on the same topic should COMPANIES not be read out in full. Members should give a brief That the draft Companies, Partnerships and Groups (Accounts description of the number and location of the petitioners, and Reports) Regulations 2015, which were laid before this House and state that the petition is “in the same terms.” on 23 February, be approved.—(Mark Lancaster.) Members presenting more than one petition should Question agreed to. present them together. When a Member has presented a petition, she or he should proceed to the Table and hand their petition to the Clerk, who will read the title REGULATORY REFORM of the petition and then hand it back to the Member. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing She or he should then proceed directly to the petitions Order No. 18(1)), bag at the back of the Chair. I will call the next Member That the draft Legislative Reform (Community Governance immediately after the Clerk has read the title. At the Reviews) Order 2014, which was laid before this House on expiry of half an hour, no further petitions may be 11 December 2014, be approved.—(Mark Lancaster.) presented orally, but they may be placed in the petition Question agreed to. bag and will be recorded as formally presented. 1393 24 MARCH 2015 Business without Debate 1394

PETITIONS Planning permission for McDonald’s in Kenton (Newcastle) Progress of the Affordable Homes Bill 6.21 pm 6.18 pm Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): I Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): I wish to present a wish to present a petition on behalf of my constituents petition that was the product of constituents’ astonishment, in Newcastle. A similar petition online—at indeed anger, that the House of Commons could vote www.mcdonaldspetition.co.uk—has collected 860 signatures by an overwhelming majority on 5 September to support so far. The petition calls on this House to listen to the my private Member’s Bill to scrap the Government’s democratic will of local people and the council, who under-occupancy penalty, otherwise known as the bedroom have rejected a planning application for a McDonald’s tax, and to improve opportunities for affordable homes—the drive-through in Kenton, Newcastle, and urge the vote was 306 to 231, at column 603 of Hansard, and Government to reject any appeal that may be considered these were eligible votes in the House of Commons—but by a Minister. The restaurant would be opposite Europe’s could then effectively have its will defied by one party of largest secondary school—which is also my old school—on the coalition that acted in a high-handed manner in a busy main road and a minute’s walk from another refusing to grant the Bill the necessary money resolution. similar restaurant. The council has rejected the application, To any objective observer—and my constituents are but an appeal was lodged on the last available day to the paragons of objectivity—that represents a clear abuse Planning Inspectorate, which takes the decision away of Executive power. The petition is signed by over 1,000 from local people. constituents, but I have also received many hundreds of The petition states: letters, e-mails and messages of support and encouragement, The Humble Petition of the organisers of the website with none opposed to the measure. Such a Bill shall not mcdonaldspetition.co.uk be stopped in the next Parliament. Sheweth that the Petitioners are campaigning to promote and The petition states: strengthen local democratic oversight of the planning system; further that local people in Newcastle have rejected planning The Petition of residents of the UK, permission for a McDonald’s fast food restaurant opposite a Declares that the Petitioners support the Affordable Homes school in Kenton and further that an appeal has been made to the Bill sponsored by Andrew George, further that the Petitioners Planning Inspector. believe that the bill should be allowed to progress and further that Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your Honourable House a petition in the St Ives constituency calling for the bill to be will urge the Government to listen to the democratic will of local allowed to progress was signed by 1072 individuals. people in Newcastle and duly reject the appeal to the Planning The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons Inspector for planning permission for a McDonald’s fast food urges the Government to bring forward a money resolution to restaurant in Kenton. allow the Affordable Homes Bill to make progress. And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray, &c. And the Petitioners remain, etc. [P001470] [P001466] Eligibility of Members to vote on certain issues in the Expansion of St Joseph’s Catholic Primary School, House of Commons Barnoldswick 6.23 pm 6.20 pm Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): This is a petition It is a pleasure to be joined by so many colleagues to to the House of Commons of the residents of present petitions from up and down the country calling Barnoldswick—[Interruption.] for English votes on English laws. Petitions have also been raised by many dozens of other colleagues and Mr Speaker: There is no need to hurry the matter constituencies. In just a few weeks, there will be a unduly. May I say what a pleasure it is to see the hon. general election at which we will face a decisive choice Gentleman back in the Chamber and in very good on a number of important issues, one of which is voice? As I say, these matters do not need to be unduly whether the people of England should be allowed to hurried, but we all look forward to his petition. determine their own destiny in areas where decisions have been devolved to the Scottish Parliament, or whether MPs representing Scottish constituencies should be allowed Andrew Stephenson: Thank you, Mr Speaker. to continue to decide issues that will have no effect The petition states: whatsoever on their constituents. The Petition of residents of Barnoldswick, We have set out proposals to ensure basic democratic Declares that the Petitioners believe that St Joseph’s Catholic fairness. The Opposition are, of course, silent. They Primary School, West Close Road, Barnoldswick is over-subscribed want to maintain the flexibility to strike a cosy deal, and wishes to expand to meet the needs of the local area, backed by nationalist MPs who want to tear our country including a growing Catholic community. apart, so this is an issue they would prefer to avoid. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons That will not satisfy the thousands of people who have urges the Government to support the St Joseph’s Catholic Primary signed this petition and whose voice is heard tonight. I School’s proposed extension. am grateful to you, Mr Speaker, for allowing us time to And the Petitioners remain, etc. present the petition. As you have said, I will read it out [P001471] in full so other colleagues do not need to do so. I wish to 1395 Business without Debate24 MARCH 2015 Business without Debate 1396 present a petition on behalf of those in the Beverley Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con): I rise to present a and Holderness constituency who want to ensure English petition in the same terms on behalf of the residents of votes for English laws. Redditch County. They do not want any more powers The petition states: transferred away from this House, and want to ensure The Petition of residents of Beverley and Holderness, that English Members of Parliament are able to take Declares that the Petitioners believe that when Parliament decisions that only affect them. makes decisions affecting only the people of England or England The Petition of residents of Redditch County. and Wales then those decisions should be made only by the Members of Parliament elected to represent England or England [P001465] and Wales. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons Sir Alan Duncan (Rutland and Melton) (Con): On creates fairness in the devolution settlement by ensuring decisions behalf of my constituents in Rutland and Melton, I having a separate and distinct effect on England or England and present a petition in the same terms as that of my hon. Wales, are only decided by the Members of Parliament elected to Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness represent England or England and Wales. (Mr Stuart). We believe in a balanced and fair constitution And the Petitioners remain, etc. that offers English votes for English laws. [P001451] The Petition of the residents of Rutland and Melton. Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): I rise to present [P001468] a petition in the same terms as that of my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart) Dame Angela Watkinson (Hornchurch and Upminster) on behalf of my constituents in Daventry. I also have a (Con): I rise to present a petition in precisely the same similar one, which I carried out online, with about terms as that of my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley 300 signatures. This is the second petition that I have and Holderness (Mr Stuart). It contains 276 signatures presented on this issue since I became a Member of from the residents of Hornchurch and Upminster. Parliament. It is a very strong and current theme in the The Petition of the residents of Hornchurch and Upminster. pubs and on the streets of the villages in my constituency, so it gives me great pleasure to present this petition. [P001469] The Petition of the residents of Daventry. Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): I rise to present a [P001439] petition in the same terms on behalf of my constituents Simon Reevell (Dewsbury) (Con): I, too, rise to present in Congleton, who consider this to be a matter of a petition in the same terms on behalf of the people of fairness and justice for themselves and all the people of Dewsbury. It is no more and no less than a request that England. such matters are dealt with fairly from the perspective The Petition of the residents of Congleton. of those of us who live in England, who want no more [P001472] than that enjoyed by those who live elsewhere in the United Kingdom. Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): I rise to present The Petition of the residents of Dewsbury. a petition in the same terms on behalf of the residents [P001454] of the faithful city of Worcester. It has been signed by more than 400 residents and 100 residents have signed a Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): I rise to similar petition online. present a petition in the same terms as that of my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness The Petition of the residents of Worcester. (Mr Stuart) on behalf of the constituents of Newton [P001473] Abbot. English laws must be made only by English MPs: this is the heart of democracy. Sir David Amess (Southend West) (Con): I rise to The Petition of residents of the constituency of Newton present a petition in the same terms as that of my hon. Abbot. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness [P001457] (Mr Stuart). It has been signed by many constituents in Southend West who are incensed about the unfair voting Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): I arrangements for English Members of Parliament. rise to present a similar petition in the same terms on The Petition of the residents of Southend West. behalf of the residents of North East Hertfordshire, who feel most strongly about this issue. [P001475] The Petition of residents of North East Hertfordshire. Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): I would [P001458] like to associate myself with the words of my hon. Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): I rise to present a Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness petition in the same terms as that of my hon. Friend the (Mr Stuart) and to present a petition in the same terms Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart) on on behalf of my constituents in South East Cornwall. behalf of my constituents in Crawley, who believe that The Petition of the residents of South East Cornwall. they should have equal weight in decisions that affect [P001476] their lives in England. It is my pleasure to present the petition. Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): I rise to present a The Petition of residents of Crawley. petition in the same terms as that of my hon. Friend the [P001459] Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart) on 1397 Business without Debate 24 MARCH 2015 1398

[Julian Sturdy] Lesser-taught languages behalf of my constituents in York Outer. It calls for Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House English votes for English laws to deliver fairness for all. do now adjourn.—(Mr Wallace.) The Petition of the residents of York Outer. [P001477] 6.35 pm Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): I, too, rise to Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): I wish to express present a petition in the same terms as that laid out by my disappointment at the fact that a number of exam my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness bodies have decided to pull out of teaching GCSE and (Mr Stuart). I present it on behalf of my constituents in A-Level for lesser-taught modern languages. It seems Gosport, who are so frustrated by the injustice of this that from 2016 or 2017 we will lose a large number of situation and request English votes for English laws. what are referred to as lesser-known languages, and for teaching purposes as modern languages. Those include The Petition of the residents of Gosport. Arabic, modern Greek, Japanese, Urdu, Bengali, modern [P001478] Hebrew, Punjabi, Polish, Dutch, Persian, Gujarati and Turkish. In short, my case is that a short-term decision Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): I rise to present by exam bodies, supposedly made on the grounds of a petition on behalf of the constituents of Cleethorpes low uptake and/or financial viability, will put at risk the in the same terms as those of my hon. Friends. My UK’s future trade, diplomatic and cultural relationships constituents feel strongly that this constitutional anomaly with many future economic success stories. wants correcting. They believe in English votes for English laws. The internationally recognised group known as the Next-11 countries—the House will be grateful that I The Petition of the residents of Cleethorpes. will not list them all—have been identified as countries [P001479] set to enjoy rapid and sizable growth. However, with these cuts to exam board qualifications we are set to dismiss, among others, Arabic, Bengali, Turkish and Persian. Indeed, for Britain there will not be the Next-11 countries, but there may be the Next-7. The British Council identified key languages based on economic, cultural and educational factors. Those included Arabic, Turkish, Portuguese and Japanese, yet they too have been identified as of no further interest to exam bodies. I fear that unfortunately we are not learning the lessons of the past. We have all become familiar with the success of the BRIC countries—Brazil, Russia, India and China—which were identified decades ago as the growth economies of the future. Yet to all intents and purposes, for some years we in the UK have fared less well than some of our competitor neighbouring EU countries in doing business with the BRIC countries, and I suggest that in part that was because we did not teach and master the languages of the economies that we knew were about to emerge—and emerge they did. Are we now set to repeat those mistakes with the Next-11 countries and the so-called MIST countries—those countries have taken over from the BRICs and are Mexico, Indonesia, South Korea and Turkey? Let me use the example of Turkey for illustrative purposes. Turkish is currently taught at GCSE and A-level, but the OCR board’s proposed policy is to cease to teach it as a modern language. The OCR—a not-for-profit organisation—has cited commercial viability as the reason for not proceeding with that exam, arguing that only 1,700 GCSE students and 600 A-level students entered for it. The decision to drop the GCSE and the A-level baffles me, frankly, not least because the number of candidates achieving A-level grades A to E is higher than that for courses the exam bodies are keeping, namely German and Spanish. The decision by the OCR is further complicated—and difficult to understand and challenge—by the fact that on the grounds of commercial sensitivity it will not share the financial information it claims is driving this decision. If it is abandoning the course, I struggle, as one who spent 25 years in business, to understand what could be commercially sensitive. 1399 Lesser-taught languages24 MARCH 2015 Lesser-taught languages 1400

Perhaps I can make a note of my first two points for After five years in this place, I recognise that sometimes the Minister. Will he confirm that the Government are people are cynical about taking the word of an MP, so, not putting financial pressure on exam bodies, or, indeed, shocking as that might be, I shall turn to some evidence if they are putting pressure on exam bodies? Will he that I hope the exam bodies will take onboard. In 2013, require them to share the financial rationale for that the British Chambers of Commerce surveyed 4,768 decision with him or his officials? companies, of which 70% responded that their access to greater exports was diminished by a lack of language Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman skills. It is obvious, but it is good to have the evidence. is making a very important case. May I just tell him UK Trade & Investment’s 2013 report, “The Costs to about the Shpresa project, which works in my area the UK of Language Deficiencies as a Barrier to UK among families who came to the UK from Kosovo? Engagement in Exporting”, showed a staggering loss to Teaching people Albanian is a very important part of British business of £48 billion in exports through poor what it does. The young people are very keen that there language skills. I do not need a long education in should be a GCSE, as there is not one at the moment. mathematics to work out that this would be an astonishing The exam body has told them that raising £100,000 return on our investment, if we could capture that £48 would enable a GCSE to be introduced. So far, they billion by continuing our investment in modern languages, have raised £80,000. including many of the lesser modern languages. In case we need more convincing, I refer the House to the latest report from Professor James Foreman-Peck, Nick de Bois: I pay tribute to them for their ingenuity of Cardiff business school, which, in 2015, showed and their willingness to try to solve their problem. That convincingly that small and medium-sized enterprise points to something I would like to say about the exporters with strong language skills achieved far higher diaspora a little later, but I applaud their entrepreneurial export-to-turnover ratios. That is the holy grail if we are and, shall we say, Conservative instincts to try to find a to continue to drive our export business. It is simple. We solution for themselves. require exam bodies to invest in the future by keeping I am quite happy to respect the commercial sensitivity and growing modern language courses, not cutting them argument about not putting information in the public back. On the point I think the hon. Member for Llanelli domain. However, as the Minister will see later, I am (Nia Griffith) was making,should we not be responding anxious that if he were to explore that argument with to the alleged concern about entry numbers for GCSE the OCR it would perhaps either provide comfort or and A-levels, as in the case of Turkish, modern Greek, expose as flawed the argument that has been put forward. Polish and Bengali, with an attempt to reach more On the wider argument, does the Minister agree that students by marketing the unique benefits of these the case for learning modern languages is very simple? courses? There is a vast audience out there waiting to The world is becoming even smaller. We are seeking to take up the challenge. deliver on the Government’s pledge and target to build exports across the globe and to maintain strong trading Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): I congratulate arrangements with the EU. We will therefore need fluent, the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate, the title of well-educated people to build our relationships with which is “Lesser-taught Languages”. In Leicester, these Turkey, Poland, Iran, Bangladesh and the other countries languages are not lesser taught—Gujarati, Punjabi, Bengali I have mentioned. We will need language skills to do and Arabic qualifications are sat by hundreds of students business with many of those countries. every year. He has hit the nail on the head. If we want to expand trade, rather than getting rid of these qualifications, we should be encouraging schools to offer them, in Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Does the hon. Gentleman addition to the madrassahs, temples and community accept the exam boards have for a long time cross-subsidised organisations that currently offer them in Leicester. the smaller subject areas? The key thing here is to increase the numbers of people taking the exams. We Nick de Bois: Indeed. With the best of efforts, many know very well that it is a huge step forward to go from of these supplementary educational skills—the hon. speaking a language at home to working towards a Gentleman rightly talks highly of those in his qualification. We should be aiming to offer more children constituency—are not going to deliver the modern language the opportunity to get a qualification that then makes skills we need at A-level and GCSE level to take pupils them able to do the things he describes in the commercial on to other qualifications. They are complementary. I world: to operate as adults, not simply as children who will talk shortly about what is being done in the community, have a language at home. but on his point about “lesser-taught languages”, it was the term I inherited and felt worthy enough to draw to Nick de Bois: The hon. Lady makes an excellent the attention of the Speaker’s Office. However, he makes point. Her work on the all-party group on modern very well the point that many people on Twitter have languages champions the arguments for why we should made to me. We still think of them as lesser languages, engage with diasporas and capitalise on their contribution but in fact they are the languages of the future, economically, and their links, through the second and third generations, culturally and diplomatically. as well as making the teaching of these languages widely available. We could then turn around the reputation Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con): I congratulate of Britain as a country that is not necessarily interested my hon. Friend on securing this debate. I have been to in other languages to one that champions such skills, so Turkey several times in recent years and have been we can return to and explore our roots as a trading impressed by the scale—7% or 8%—of its economic nation. She makes the point about the advantages of growth. There is a construction site almost everywhere. the diaspora very well. I am shocked to hear that an exam board might be 1401 Lesser-taught languages24 MARCH 2015 Lesser-taught languages 1402

[Mr Richard Bacon] case to ensure that we encourage the second and third- generation Polish people to become the entrepreneurs, thinking of withdrawing a Turkish GCSE qualification. academics and diplomats for the UK and to ensure that Given that the state could provide these qualifications we help Poland to do more business with the UK. That itself but chooses to allow exam boards to do it, is not is surely the role of modern languages—to secure the the answer for the state to say to exam boards, “If you qualification, to get it recognised as a qualification that wish to be an exam board, we will hold you to a higher is utterly distinct from what people might learn in the standard”? home and to allow people to use languages to progress and develop the careers they need. If I sound as if I Nick de Bois: My hon. Friend rightly makes a suggestion know what I am talking about at all, it is down to the that I will be reinforcing to the Minister a little later. He discussions I have had on this subject with my hon. is right. The Government’s job, and our job, is to lead. I Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel know from questions I have tabled to the Department Kawczynski). It is also worth noting that Poland is for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Department currently the UK’s ninth largest export market. That is for Education that they would rightly echo the sentiments surely something that we should tap into more. he has expressed and which I am sure others in the Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): Chamber hold regarding the value and importance of Poland is one of our largest and fastest-growing export these qualifications. With a new Parliament, perhaps we markets. Whenever I go to Warsaw, the discussions I can put some oomph—that will be an interesting one have in Polish are completely different from those I have for Hansard—into backing up what we aspire to deliver. when I speak in English. They are so much more open As is evident today, there are cross-party calls, led by to discussions when people make the effort to learn the all-party group on modern languages, for the political their language. I very much hope that we can save the commitment to which my hon. Friend has referred. I Polish A-level, purely from a commercial perspective. think it is also a political commitment to transforming the reputation of the UK as essentially poor linguists. I Nick de Bois: I well take my hon. Friend’s point. I am was blessed in that my father was in the Royal Air blessed with a French name, but from the presumption Force, so I lived and travelled in many locations overseas. that I speak French I recognise the constant disappointment I found it quite hard to learn a modern language of French-speaking people when I am limited to saying, overseas. For many years we were in Holland, and as “I am sorry, but I do not speak very good French”—in the Dutch told me, “We are all learning English because French, at least! My hon. Friend is right that the whole no one is really keen to learn Dutch.” I am not sure that tone, mood and understanding can change when we that is necessarily the case now, but because we were nuance business relationships by using the language of English, we were inherently gifted by the fact that so the people we hope to do good business with. many people wanted to learn English. That is not the What I said about Poland, I have already said about way of the world now—in an ever-changing world and Turkey, and it is true of Bangladesh—a growing economy an ever-changing global market. I do not want Britain in the world, with unique and historic ties. It is set to be to be seen as a country that is reluctant to value languages a growing economic partner to the UK, but that could other than English. be threatened by the decision to close the door on The all-party parliamentary group rightly set out opportunity by not teaching Bengali, which is the 10th most other important aims—for example, to ensure that every spoken language in the world. That is a pretty big door child achieves a high-quality language qualification by of opportunity to close. I think that, in the mid to long the end of their secondary education. Indeed, that is an term, these very same people can be at the forefront of ambition that other countries do not need themselves, the strengthening of links with their relatives of generations as many of them are on the way to achieving it. I think ago, back at home. I think that that can be part of a it right for exam boards to seek to review their policy, wider picture, and that what is becoming an increasingly which is in my opinion short-termist and taken in smaller world can be a world in which we send our isolation of the needs of business and in isolation of the ambassadors from the United Kingdom, whose origins wider UK skills level training for the future. lie in the diaspora, to be our number one representatives abroad. As the APPG rightly recognises, the commitment to, Let me, at this point, pay tribute to Londra Gazete,a and the status of, modern languages are strategically north London Turkish newspaper that has championed important, yet this move, along with the wider concerns this issue—so much so that, in less than a week, more about the take-up of modern languages, make our than 1,500 people had signed up to argue the case for it. position more vulnerable now and for the future. As the It is not as if people are doing nothing now. The UK becomes more diverse, with a growing diaspora diasporas are certainly not sitting around doing nothing; from many different countries, we should not lose sight they have their supplementary schools, and they follow of the unique opportunity to build closer cultural, the true Conservative principles of personal and family diplomatic and business relationships with countries of responsibility. Many people from different communities origin. have set up such schools to help second and third-generation Let me explain. In Enfield North, I have a very mixed people who were born and raised in Britain to rediscover population, with strong, well-established second and their language of origin. That is what is happening in third generations of Turkish-speaking communities, Greek the Turkish supplementary schools in Enfield. By keeping Cypriot communities, south-east Asian and Polish Turkish as a modern language, we formalise the achievement communities, to name but a few. Indeed, it was interesting of pupils in those schools. It is a recorded academic to find out from my research that Polish is the second achievement that can take them on to university, and, as most commonly spoken language in the UK. This is not I have said, they can become ambassadors and exporters a reason, in my opinion, to abandon the A-level, but a for Britain. 1403 Lesser-taught languages24 MARCH 2015 Lesser-taught languages 1404

Teaching in the supplementary schools is not a substitute Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House for modern languages GCSE or A-level courses. I do do now adjourn—(Mr Wallace.) not want our exam bodies to limit the ambition of any diaspora second or third generation. However, as I said Daniel Kawczynski: The hon. Member for Edinburgh at the beginning, this is not just about diasporas. We North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) is a very active should not be limiting the ambitions of all Britons who member of the all-party group on Poland which I chair, are willing to learn important languages of the future. and I hope he agrees with me about the strong What may be a lesser modern language now will certainly representations we have had from the Polish Ambassador not be a lesser modern language in the future. Mr Witold Sobków as to how strongly he and the Polish I want to know whether the Minister will meet exam diaspora feel about the importance of the retention of board decision makers—not least those on the OCR—as the Polish A-level. a matter of urgency, to raise this matter and convey the concerns that have been expressed in the House and in Mark Lazarowicz: The hon. Gentleman is right. As the modern languages community. I should be grateful he says, there has been a campaign with strong support if he threw his full weight and authority behind repeating from the Polish community throughout the UK. Dziennik the arguments that have been presented here tonight. Polski has conducted a big campaign to which many of us have given our support. 6.57 pm There is an issue not just for people in Scotland who Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ want to take exams in Polish, or other languages, or Co-op): I congratulate the hon. Member for Enfield for people who are interested in studying Polish. As North (Nick de Bois) on securing the debate. I am glad the hon. Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) that we have a few more minutes than are normally pointed out, many languages face being axed as available for Adjournment debates, so that some of his examination subjects, at least in some parts of the colleagues can comment on this important issue. UK. In so doing, we are underlining the reputation of the UK as being bad for languages. We all know that is The debate highlights the changes proposed by the case anyway and this decision will only make it examination boards in England, but the issue also affects worse. my constituents very directly. Many people in Scotland, in my constituency and elsewhere, want to take exams This is not just about people who want to learn a in the so-called lesser-taught languages but cannot do language because of family or connection with the so, because, even now, the Scottish Qualifications Authority diaspora, although that is an extremely important asset offers a very limited range of subjects. People do take that we should be taking advantage of in terms of exams in subjects offered by examination boards elsewhere encouraging economic links to other countries. It is also in the United Kingdom, but they have to pay the fees often important for cultural reasons and cultural cohesion. and travel to the approved centres because they cannot Anyone in the UK who wants to learn these languages take them in Scotland. The only subjects offered by the will have a disincentive to do so if there is no examination SQA are Cantonese, French, Gaelic, German, Italian, at the end of the course. As has been said, that will Mandarin, Spanish and Urdu—and a small element of diminish the economic well-being of this country and Polish in what is not a full national course. If exams in its ability to reach out to what are growing and important lesser-taught languages can no longer be taken in England, economies. Poland is the ninth largest UK export market, people from Scotland—and, presumably, in Wales and and the UK is the third largest investor in Poland. Northern Ireland—will not be able to gain these Turkish has been referred to as well, as has Portuguese, qualifications either. which is important in terms of reaching out to Brazil, one of the biggest economies in the world. Polish is my particular concern. As the hon. Gentleman said, it is the second most commonly spoken language The examination authorities in England are therefore in the United Kingdom, and is one of the foreign taking a short-sighted approach, which will have a languages that have the most speakers in the UK. There direct effect on my constituents. It is also unfortunate are a great many Polish speakers in my constituency, that so far the Scottish examination authorities have which contains the largest number of Polish-born people not chosen to offer an exam in Polish and perhaps other in Scotland and one of the largest in the UK. Obviously, languages as well. If anyone in the Scottish Government I have a certain personal interest and experience as well. or their supporters in this House is paying attention to I have been approached by members of a Polish community this debate, I hope they take that message back home, and others in Scotland who have been campaigning for and I hope the Government here will take the steps the Scottish Government, the Scottish Parliament and highlighted by the hon. Member for Enfield North in the Scottish authorities to ensure that Polish is included trying to ensure this regrettable decision by the exam in Scottish national examination courses, both at national boards is reversed, so that the immense talent and 4 and 5 and at a higher level. That campaign is on much ability which can be released by encouraging these the same lines as the one described by the hon. Gentleman. languages to be learned and studied with a qualification at the end can be maximised for the benefit of the entire Daniel Kawczynski rose— UK in the way that has been so amply outlined in this debate. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): Order. It will be a good idea to deal with the moment of 7.3 pm interruption before the hon. Gentleman intervenes. Sir John Randall (Uxbridge and South Ruislip) (Con): I will not detain the House for long. I have a declaration: 7pm I am probably the only Member of this House with a Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 9(3)). degree in Serbo-Croat, and I studied Russian as well at 1405 Lesser-taught languages24 MARCH 2015 Lesser-taught languages 1406

[Sir John Randall] since the second world war, and they have given so much to this country. It is the least we can do to ensure A-level. I therefore have a strong love of languages that that their children and grandchildren can learn their are probably not the most well-known ones, but it is language and learn about their country and their culture. important that they are taught. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield 7.7 pm North (Nick de Bois) on securing this debate. He is a doughty champion for all his constituents, but on this Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): occasion particularly for those who have these languages When the Prime Minister appointed me as his envoy to and their families. This is very important: it is important the central and eastern European diaspora in the United for their culture, and it is important for business and Kingdom, I was obviously very pleased. I am the first many other reasons, but it is also important because British Member of Parliament ever to have been born in when people who might not even have family links learn Poland. As I said earlier, when I go to Warsaw and those languages and then go on business trips and so speak to representatives of non-governmental organisations, forth, they learn about the culture of the place. They of commercial operations and of the Government, the can then read things and learn a lot more. They are far conversation is completely different when I speak in better equipped to talk to people in those countries and Polish. People open up and tell me things that they those who are here, and that is incredibly important. would not normally tell me, and I am able to engage This is also a matter of politeness. Anybody can learn with them in a completely different way. a few words of a language. I am sure that my hon. As a result, I have now asked a lady in Shrewsbury to Friend the Member for Enfield North was being help me to improve my Polish, and she comes every modest when he said that he could not speak much Saturday to teach me and my daughter, Alexis. Alexis is French. The ability to speak just a few basic words can eight years old, and she is much better at learning the open doors. If people are learning these languages, we language than I am, as children often are. Alexis had should encourage them by giving them a qualification. I come to me and said, “Daddy, I’m half Polish and I entirely agree that we should not be cutting the study of want to learn the language.” That made my heart melt; I these minor languages; we should be encouraging more was so proud of her. I very much hope that she will do of them to be taught. The right hon. Member for East Polish A-level one day, and that she will be able to speak Ham (Stephen Timms) mentioned Albanian. I have the language fluently. I know that, whatever walk of life become involved in the fight against modern slavery, she follows—perhaps she will have a business career— and it is important that when I go to countries such as knowing a second language will give her a huge advantage. Albania and Slovakia I can at least understand what If we are going to remain in the European Union, it is people are saying. We should be encouraging more vital that we engage with our political counterparts in people to learn these languages. their own language. We have not mentioned intelligence work. We never I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for know when we are suddenly going to need native speakers, Enfield North (Nick de Bois). He and I share a passion for whatever reason. I never thought, when I studied for British exports; we both come from an exports Serbo-Croat, that the events in Yugoslavia were going background. I spent 14 years exporting British goods to happen. It was just a rather nice backwater in the around the world before I became a Member of Parliament. Balkans at the time, but we saw what eventually happened If we look at the world map, we see that we are exporting there. These matters are incredibly important. most to English-speaking countries but that, surprisingly, Madam Deputy Speaker, you and I will shortly be there is a huge dearth—a void—of British commercial taking our leave of this place. You no longer have the interests in many parts of the world simply because we opportunity to speak in debates as I do, but I should do not understand the language. The Prime Minister like to put on record my thanks to you for all that you has set a target of £1 trillion of exports by 2020, which have done in the House. I also want to plug my old some say it is unachievable. I believe it can be achieved, college, the School of Slavonic and East European but we have to help the small and medium-sized enterprises, Studies, which is now part of University college London. to which my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North It offers excellent evening courses in all these different referred. One in five SMEs is exporting and if we can languages and, as I am about to have more time on my get that to one in four, we will completely wipe out our hands, I might well start to learn some of them. trade balance deficit. We are not going to get back to A few years ago, courses were offered in the House of substantial economic prosperity in this country unless Commons. Perhaps you participated in them, Madam our SMEs are exporting to countries to which hitherto Deputy Speaker. They consisted of two-hour sessions, we have not exported. These languages are of huge and I remember that the right hon. Member for Carshalton importance in that, so I implore the Minister there. I and Wallington (Tom Brake), who is now the Deputy pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield Leader of the House, was learning Portuguese. I think North and I am very grateful for what he has done. I he was brought up in Portugal. I did Punjabi, which has very much look forward to hearing from the Minister helped me ever since. I can now say to my Sikh businessmen about the interventions he is going to make to ensure in Punjabi that I am called John Randall. That opens that these vital language courses stay. doors for me everywhere. The fact that I have a beard, and until recently had a shop, has also helped. Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con) rose— Our country cannot afford not to encourage the teaching of these languages. As for the Poles, we should Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): be doing everything we can, because they are an important May I just ask you, Mr Bacon, to allow enough time for trading partner. Poles have been in my constituency the Minister to reply? This debate will end at 7.30 pm. 1407 Lesser-taught languages24 MARCH 2015 Lesser-taught languages 1408

7.10 pm and wit, that we can do more for less. Either you come with us on this journey, provide more for less and show Mr Bacon: I have an eager eye on the clock and I will that you can do it, or we will find someone else who abide by what you have said, Madam Deputy Speaker. I can.” wish to make a brief contribution. Some 10 days ago—two weeks ago—in my capacity as co-chair of the all-party group on Iran, I helped host 7.14 pm five Members of the Iranian Parliament here in Westminster The Minister of State, Department for Education for most of a week. When we were not in Westminster, (Mr Nick Gibb): I congratulate my hon. Friend the one of the most interesting trips we did was to Cambridge, Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) on securing where we met the professor of Persian studies, some this debate, and pay tribute to him for his support of the young British students who were studying Persian, some study of foreign languages and for the way in which he young members of the diaspora and some people who consistently and energetically fights for the interests of had come here from Iran to study at masters and at his constituents in Enfield North. PhD level. On the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) made, Learning a foreign language is both a great pleasure when we look at the statistics on this country’s exports and an excellent preparation for life in a modern country to Iran, we find that, sadly, for a variety of reasons we such as Britain, which has an outward looking and are all too familiar with, they have been going down. globalised economy. I also pay tribute to the all-party Interestingly, that has been while United States’ exports group on modern languages for the work it does in in areas where the US has a competitive advantage, highlighting the importance of studying a modern foreign such as agriculture and pharmaceuticals, have been language in our modern economy. I also welcome the increasing substantially. literally unique contributions from my right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Sir John There will come a time when our relations with Iran, Randall)—the only Member with a degree in Serbo- including our commercial relations, are able to Croat—and my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury flourish and prosper in the way that many of us would and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski), the only Member like to see. When that time comes, we have to be who was born in Poland. My hon. Friend the Member ready. We need to be preparing for that now. We need for South Norfolk (Mr Bacon) also made a powerful to make it more normal to learn “lesser-taught short speech. languages” as they are termed in this debate. The best part of that description is “taught”, because they are My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North is not lesser in any other sense. I am looking at my right right to highlight the importance of languages for future hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip economic growth. A report by the CBI published in (Sir John Randall) and I recall a friend of mine who is 2014 found that 65% of businesses say they value foreign now at The Economist teaching me a phrase in Serbo-Croat language skills, most importantly for building relations many years ago which turned out to mean, “Why don’t with overseas customers and overseas suppliers. you speak Serbo-Croat?” I have yet to find a useful use The Government’s programme of education reform for it. has been the most far-reaching for a generation. We The truth of the matter, however, is that the single have restored rigour by introducing a new knowledge-based most human part of the encounter during the Iranians’ curriculum, which draws from the curriculums of the visit was when I recited a poem in Farsi that I had taken highest-performing jurisdictions around the world. We the trouble to learn. That opened a whole set of windows have raised the bar by reforming GCSEs and A-levels so that had hitherto been closed in the way we dealt with that young people study genuinely demanding content, each other. The Iranians went home, reporting back which provides a solid basis for further study and that they had had a very successful visit. I only hope we employment. Raising the status of foreign languages—both can do more business in the future and improve the to increase take-up and improve attainment—has been relations between our countries, but the ability to central to this programme of reform. communicate with each other is of the essence. In 2010, the study of foreign languages in English Let me make one point about the comments made by schools was in a precarious state. The removal of languages the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark from the key stage 4 national curriculum in 2004 by the Lazarowicz). At one point in his speech he used the previous Labour Government led to a 36 percentage phrase “examination authorities”. We all know what he point decline in the number of pupils studying a modern means by that, but these people are not authorities; they foreign language at GCSE. In 2000, 79% of pupils are contractors. They have been given the chance by the studied a foreign language at GCSE. By 2010, that had state to offer qualifications, or they have qualifications fallen to 43%. that are widely recognised as if they have the force of This Government have taken decisive action to address the backing of the state, but the state does not have to that decline. We agreed with the APPG on modern leave it there. We are in an environment where we have languages when, in its manifesto for languages, it talked been hearing the phrase “more for less” from many about the need for a national recovery programme. We different domains for several years, and that is what we listened to the evidence on the importance of starting to ought to expect of the examination authorities. Instead learn a language early. Following the introduction of of saying, “We don’t have enough people to offer a the new national curriculum in September last year, it is Polish qualification, an Iranian qualification, a Serbo-Croat now compulsory for maintained primary schools to qualification or a Portuguese qualification”, we should teach a language to all pupils between the ages of seven be saying, “These are the economies of the future, and 11. The new curriculum is also more demanding, which are growing and with which we will be trading. with higher expectations for pupils’ speaking, writing, Let’s find a way to make sure, by the use of imagination translation and grammar. 1409 Lesser-taught languages24 MARCH 2015 Lesser-taught languages 1410

[Mr Nick Gibb] As my hon. Friend highlights, some exam boards have announced their intention to discontinue their We recognised that the new curriculum would present qualifications in some languages. Those decisions appear challenges for some schools. We are therefore providing to have been driven more by short-term commercial £1.8 million to fund nine projects across the country to interests than by a robust analysis of the language skills support teaching of modern foreign languages. Many our economy will clearly require in the future. He has schools have responded well, and are going even further raised specific concerns about AQA’s plan to discontinue than the national curriculum requires. The language Polish A-level and OCR’s plan to discontinue Turkish trends survey for 2014-15, published last week, found at both GCSE and A-level. I understand that 18,000 that 49% of primary schools are already teaching a residents in the London Borough of Enfield speak language to five to seven-year-olds, even though it is not Turkish as their first language, and my hon. Friend is required by statute. right to recognise the extraordinary contribution the The new English baccalaureate performance measure community makes to the local area and to London’s has also been a hugely successful reform. The EBacc economy. I agree with him that it is important that represents the strong academic core of subjects that all Turkish continues to be taught so that more young pupils should study, including a foreign language. As a people can enjoy Turkish literature and culture, and so result, the number of pupils in England taking at least that British firms are well placed to make the most of one modern foreign language at GCSE has increased by Turkey’s rapid economic growth. He and other hon. 20% since 2010, and 29% since 2012. Friends mentioned Turkey’s growth, which I can tell We are also reforming GCSEs and A-levels so that them was about 26% between 2010 and 2013. they are more demanding and provide students with necessary knowledge for further study and employment. Mr Bacon: I am listening with great interest, but I In 2014, we published reformed subject content hope my hon. Friend recognises the difference between, requirements for GCSE, AS and A-level qualifications on the one hand, the unsurprising commercial in modern foreign languages. The new GCSE will be considerations of commercial contractors making decisions more demanding, and most exam questions in modern in the short term, and on the other hand, the interests of languages will be asked in the target foreign language. this country, which are longer term. I am slightly At A-level, the content has been strengthened, with uncomfortable with the language he is using about the new requirements for students to read foreign language choice being for the examining boards to make—that it literary works and develop a wide command of complex is for them to decide what they offer. Surely it is for us as spoken and written language. In the past, some of the a country and as the House of Commons, and for Her lesser-taught language GCSEs included no assessment Majesty’s Government, to decide what we want to do, of speaking or listening. Ofqual has decided that those and then to make sure that arrangements are in place— elements, both of which are crucial to linguistic fluency, whether they are commercial or otherwise—to achieve must be assessed in the reformed qualifications. the goals that we want to achieve? The new content for modern foreign languages specifies the knowledge expected of pupils taking the qualification Mr Gibb: There are genuine commercial factors that in terms that apply to all languages. It is then for the awarding bodies have to take into account. We awarding organisations—the exam boards—to determine could compensate or pay awarding bodies to produce which languages to offer at GCSE, AS and A-level. We qualifications. I will deal with that point shortly. have made it clear to the exam boards that we want a broad range of subjects available to study. French, Mark Lazarowicz: I look forward to the Minister German and Spanish will always be important, and coming to that point, and I hope he will show what the they do attract significant numbers of candidates: there Government are going to do to encourage or even are 150,000 entries for French GCSE, 57,000 for German require the examining boards to meet the demand and and 71,000 for Spanish. Those subjects were therefore the requirement for other languages that has been so the first to be reformed and the new GCSEs will be in clearly identified in this debate. We want not just good place for first teaching in September 2016, but I agree words, but action to make that happen. with my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North that young people should have the opportunity to study Mr Gibb: I will come to that in a moment. First, I other, less familiar languages if we are to compete in the wanted to point out to my hon. Friend the Member for global economy. Enfield North and to other hon. Members that OCR British firms will increasingly demand staff who are plans to continue offering an IGCSE in first language fluent in languages such as Mandarin, Arabic, Polish Turkish, which I hope will be of interest to many of my and Turkish as they seek new markets and opportunities. hon. Friend’s constituents who already speak Turkish. We have therefore allowed the awarding organisations further time to develop new qualifications in additional Nick de Bois: I want to put it on record that that has languages for first teaching in 2017. They are free to been examined by many people, but it is nowhere near develop qualifications in any language, provided that the standard that we require for A-level and it will not their specifications meet the subject content requirements achieve the objective, for example, of helping someone set by the Department for Education and assessment get into a university with that qualification. arrangements set by Ofqual. Clearly, there is work involved in developing new GCSEs and A-levels that Mr Gibb: I will take that point to the awarding meet the new demands, and financial costs associated organisations. Although the IGCSE will not count in with the reform, but that should not prevent awarding school performance tables, the qualification is recognised organisations from offering reformed qualifications in a by further and higher education as a demonstration of range of languages if they choose. a student’s proficiency in the language. Clearly, though, 1411 Lesser-taught languages24 MARCH 2015 Lesser-taught languages 1412 the availability of the IGCSE is not a full substitute for My hon. Friend is correct. It is not the Government a GCSE in Turkish as a foreign language, for those who who are applying pressure, financial or otherwise, to are learning it as a second language rather than as a first reduce the number of foreign language GCSEs; quite language. the contrary. Having listened carefully to the arguments I have listened to the powerful case made by my hon. made by him and others, both during the debate and Friend and other hon. Members this evening on behalf outside the Chamber, I will raise his concerns and those of their constituents and others who recognise the of other hon. Members with the chief executives of the importance of languages to our economy. I should awarding organisations, including OCR and AQA, and point out, for the sake of balance in this debate, that the I will invite them to reconsider their current position—I Turkish GCSE attracted only 1,403 entries last year, will do that tomorrow—and to subordinate what I and for the Turkish A-level there were only 354 entries. believe to be a commercial calculation to the far more Indeed, the entry figures have been consistently low for significant long-term economic and cultural considerations a number of years. for this country. In doing so, I will also question them These relatively small numbers create some genuine closely about the financial rationale for their decisions. difficulties for awarding organisations. In addition to I am very grateful to my hon. Friend and others for diseconomies of scale, they may struggle to recruit raising this important issue, and I pay tribute to his firm sufficient staff to mark the exam and find it more support for the key place of languages in our long-term difficult to set grade boundaries, given the statistical plan for education and the economy. variability which is more likely in smaller cohorts. Question put and agreed to. Nevertheless, I believe that these problems may well have solutions. Exam boards manage to recruit markers for the current version of the GCSE and they manage 7.28 pm to set grade boundaries effectively. House adjourned.

411WH 24 MARCH 2015 Commonwealth Day 412WH

Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): I Westminster Hall congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. Does he agree that now, or some time in the very near future, might be an appropriate time for the Irish Tuesday 24 March 2015 Republic to consider returning to the Commonwealth? That might even offer the opportunity of a combined bid, between Northern Ireland and the Republic, for a [MR PHILIP HOLLOBONE in the Chair] future Commonwealth games.

BACKBENCH BUSINESS Sir Alan Haselhurst: I do not necessarily want to cause diplomatic concern by talking about the possibility of the Republic wishing to return to the Commonwealth, Commonwealth Day but I have raised that matter during my chairmanship Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting with the Speaker of the Dáil. It seems to me to be a be now adjourned.—(Dr Coffey.) natural thing to do, but it is up to the people of the Republic to decide. They would be very welcome and 9.30 am they would seem natural partners among the 53 nations that are part of the Commonwealth. Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): It would not be appropriate to celebrate the Commonwealth without a I am pleased, having made three visits to Sri Lanka contribution from Sir Alan Haselhurst, who is going to during my international chairmanship, to see that there lead us in our debate on Commonwealth day. has been a peaceful change of power in that country, which I think is a great testament to all concerned. It is Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con): It is a still a country troubled by the awful battles that were pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. fought, and not all the memory of that has been erased It has not escaped notice that Commonwealth day at satisfactorily, but the fact that there has been a peaceful Westminster appears to be a little bit late this year, but I election is a step forward. am extremely grateful nevertheless to the Backbench It would also be appropriate for us to acknowledge Business Committee for finding a slot for this annual the life of Lee Kuan Yew, whose death has just occurred. debate. I realise that, as we come to the end of the I have some personal memories of him. As a precocious Parliament, there is great pressure on time. One thing I prospective parliamentary candidate, I was travelling have tried to do while I have been involved in the through Singapore for the first time in 1968 and I dared Commonwealth Parliamentary Association at national to call on the Prime Minister’s residence. It was amazing and international level is to ensure that as many to me that he was prepared to find time to meet me on parliamentary assemblies as possible across the that occasion. So began a relationship that continued Commonwealth should find an annual occasion to debate over a number of years, and in 1972, when I returned to whatever issues about the Commonwealth or within it Singapore as a parliamentarian, I found myself summoned were of particular interest to their members. It would to supper with him and his wife. It was, in many ways, have been slightly unfortunate had we, in the rush of an intimidating occasion to be closeted so privately with business at the end of this Parliament, failed to find that people of such distinction and intellect. It made me opportunity ourselves. We should say to our colleagues extremely uncomfortable in my clumsy handling of and friends across the Commonwealth that it was by no chopsticks while maintaining, one hoped, a civilised means an afterthought that we should be holding the and constructive conversation. Singapore is sometimes debate on 24 March and not earlier. described as the Asian tiger, and in some respects that The debate is a symbol of our interest in the term might be applied to Lee Kuan Yew himself, for his Commonwealth and the fact that, in some ways, it is personal vision, his dedication and his forcefulness—let subliminal among parliamentarians that we take for us be honest about it—in ensuring that Singapore became granted our membership of the Commonwealth and the powerful city state that we now know it to be. the values that it upholds. It is important that we should, from time to time, make a signal effort to David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I thought for a demonstrate our commitment. Talking of symbols, if I moment that the right hon. Gentleman was going to say may dare to say so, I am modelling the new CPA UK that the Prime Minister handled the situation very well branch tie, which we are launching today. I hope that it and got over his nerves about meeting the right hon. will come to be seen as a central part of the wardrobe of Gentleman. Does he agree that is it not only a privilege, Members of Parliament. constitutionally and in every other way, to be part of This is an opportunity to review certain aspects of the British Commonwealth, but that it brings benefits the Commonwealth from our perspective. We often for inter-trade and for export and import to the United regard ourselves in the Commonwealth as a family. We Kingdom as a whole? have matters that cause us concern, matters that cause us grief and matters that give us cause for celebration. Sir Alan Haselhurst: Yes, I absolutely agree with that, We feel great concern for the peoples of the south and I will say a word or two about that in a moment. I Pacific, particularly in Vanuatu, a small community have one other reflection on my visit to Singapore. It overwhelmed by natural disaster, to whom our hearts was famous that so many things were prohibited in go out. We welcome the return to the Commonwealth Singapore, using the well known sign of a circle with a of Fiji. At the same time, we are concerned about events bar across what it was that people could not do. In in the Maldives, and we hope that the situation will sort those days, my hair was a little longer than it is today. I itself out without too much difficulty. was rather concerned to be meeting Lee Kuan Yew 413WH Commonwealth Day24 MARCH 2015 Commonwealth Day 414WH

[Sir Alan Haselhurst] during the term of my chairmanship was uplifting. I felt that, in a modest way, I was some sort of symbol of when I was not sure whether I passed the test so far as what the Commonwealth meant. wearing long hair in his country was concerned, but our friendship managed to survive that difficulty. I salute However, the governance of the CPA at international his memory and all that he has done for his people. level presented a serious challenge, which is ironic because, as much as anything, the CPA is about promoting good The Commonwealth has many manifestations, but its governance. We believe that if there are stable systems of reality cannot be taken for granted. I said earlier that government—representative parliamentary democracy— the Commonwealth is subliminal for us, or in our in each Commonwealth country, bound by common DNA; nevertheless, we need to understand that not principles and standards that have been signed into the everybody has it at the forefront of their mind. I am still charter by Her Majesty the Queen as head of the chilled by a discussion in which I was privileged to take Commonwealth, it will lead to confidence in the economies part with the External Affairs Committee of the Lok of those countries, to investment, to the creation of jobs Sabha in New Delhi, when one of its members said to and to the advancement of their peoples. I am pleased me, “Well, you’ve got to understand that not many that the Select Committee on International Development people here in India understand what the Commonwealth has stressed the importance of good governance, and I is about.” That was a shock to me, coming from have always tried to say that the Commonwealth a representative of the largest democracy in the Parliamentary Association can be one of the most Commonwealth by population; but it is true, is it not, effective instruments for trying to ensure the improvement that if we went around our towns and cities and asked of governing practices. the first 10 people we met what they understood about the Commonwealth, the answers might be somewhat Great work is being done. Wherever one looks, meagre. The Commonwealth is there, and we take it for particularly at regional and national levels throughout granted, but we should not take it for granted; we need the Commonwealth’s Parliaments and Assemblies, one to remind ourselves of its values. will find people who are engaged in that work. The Taking up the point made by the hon. Member for willingness of my parliamentary colleagues here to give Upper Bann (David Simpson) spoke commerce and time and the willingness of officials is replicated in trade, it is encouraging that the City of London is a other countries as well. There is an enormous amount partner in establishing the Commonwealth Enterprise of interchange, training, workshops and so on, because and Investment Council. The City is a founding father there is always churn—an increasing churn rate in some of that organisation, for which much is hoped. The lord cases—in members of the respective Parliaments, so mayor, Alan Yarrow, describes himself as a child of the there is always someone new who needs to learn the Commonwealth, having been born in Malaysia and ropes; someone who, having realised their ambition to educated in Singapore. Undoubtedly, the City of London be elected, suddenly realises that they have these is playing its part to make a reality of trade and finance responsibilities and wants to learn how best to discharge among Commonwealth countries. them. Therefore, I found it quite difficult that at the apex of Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): I congratulate my the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, in its right hon. Friend on securing this important debate. structure internationally, it was not the best exemplar of Does he agree that the Commonwealth theme for 2015, good governance. I like to think, somewhat immodestly, “A Young Commonwealth”, which recognises the that there were some advances during my three years as contribution and potential of young people, is especially chairperson. We saw an extension of the Commonwealth relevant to many countries, such as Pakistan, where a women parliamentarians network—it is still not fully significant proportion of the population is under the complete, but it has advanced considerably. I seem to age of 30? Thanks to the Commonwealth Parliamentary have persuaded colleagues that the institution of a Association, I recently met a group of young Commonwealth Youth Parliament should be an parliamentarians from Pakistan here in Westminster, annual event, bringing people from all parts of the and their enthusiasm and energy gave me hope for the Commonwealth to an assembly in which they can perform. future development of that country. After one hiccup, when Andhra Pradesh was going to be the host and the state was divided by a decision of Sir Alan Haselhurst: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s the Indian Government—that year it fell through— intervention. Given the interventions we have heard so the Commonwealth Youth Parliament was held last far, I am beginning to wonder whether my speech notes year in the legislature of the North West province of have somehow been circulated more widely than I had South Africa. The UK delegate, Meera Sonecha, became expected. I will respond to him in just a moment, if I Leader of the Opposition and even, briefly, Prime Minister may. following a vote of no confidence. I hope this year’s UK’s representative will distinguish himself or herself Today, I will mainly concentrate on the work of the to the same degree. Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. It is a huge honour to have been the chairperson of the United In all my contact with the Commonwealth Youth Kingdom branch, and I could never have guessed that, Parliament, I have been impressed by the young people within a year of accepting that post, I would find myself who are coming through. We can have hope for the as the international chairman. I would describe the future in that respect, provided that we say to young three-year period that I served in that position from people, who make up such a high proportion of the 2011 to 2014 as both a joy and a challenge. The fact that Commonwealth’s population, that their voice can be I was welcomed so generously in all those parts of the heard consistently. If we are listening, they will have Commonwealth, small and large, that I was able to visit confidence in talking to us, proposing their own ideas 415WH Commonwealth Day24 MARCH 2015 Commonwealth Day 416WH and, indeed, building their own ambition to take part in professional advisers, in the form of our clerks, to do: to the governance of their respective countries. So that ensure that decisions taken are translated into action. was good. That does not happen with the CPA internationally. I also advanced the representation of small states of Then there has been the collection of a very large the Commonwealth. We will have an annual small sum of money in reserves, which now amounts to about states conference, and I want to see a representative of £9 million. Prudent management of the finances is, of those small states as an extra person on the executive course, vital. However, if the income of the CPA committee to put their point of view. The small states internationally is roughly £2.5 million, the reserve that sometimes feel that they are the poor relations just it is necessary to keep to guard against any difficulty because they are small—some of them are very small, does not need to be £9 million. It seems to me that, to and some of them are in scattered areas of the Caribbean some extent, that money would be better dispensed in or the south Pacific. We established a mentoring scheme doing work in the regions to ensure that the network of, whereby parliamentarians with long experience can be say, women’s branches or youth branches is strengthened. linked with someone who is new to their Parliament or It was rather dispiriting that the last words published Assembly so that they can continue the discussion. in The Parliamentarian by the—alas now deceased— They do not have to meet people on an occasional basis; secretary-general of the CPA, Dr Shija, seemed to they can pick up the telephone or use e-mail to make concentrate on the CPA acquiring new premises in contact. London, with a conference facility, an apartment for More prosaically, we at last managed to implant the the secretary-general and so on. That seemed something principle of internal audit in the CPA structure. Some of a departure from what the main purposes of the CPA people had difficulty understanding the principle, although should be. My vision—if I dare use that expression—is it is actually commonplace in their respective Parliaments that we should build up the position of the small states and, quite rightly, it needed to be introduced at international and that their representative on the executive should be level. The CPA’s governance structure does not help it an officer of the CPA, alongside the chair of the to do the work that it needs to be doing. One of the Commonwealth women parliamentarians group and things that has bugged the CPA for two decades or the treasurer, the vice-chairman and the chairperson. more is the fact that some members are uncomfortable Similarly, with the youth structure we should see someone with the CPA’s legal status as a charity based in the becoming the apex of the young people of the United Kingdom, which I suspect evokes a colonial Commonwealth, so that he or she can play their part. memory that is unhelpful to what the modern I was encouraged by a message I received from the Commonwealth is all about. We have spent a great deal executive director of Commonwealth YouthNew Zealand, of time trying to find an alternative status that will be Aaron Hape, who tells me that a week ago they celebrated acceptable and workable, but of course the whole point this year’s Commonwealth theme, “A Young of charitable status is not somehow to be degrading; it Commonwealth”, to which my hon. Friend the Member is a protection against tax. All our purposes are charitable, for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson) has made reference. and therefore it makes sense for us to have that status. Aaron says: However, it was uncomfortable for some. We argued and argued and argued about it, and never found a “I was delighted to see supporters of CYNZ attend many solution. events across New Zealand, and indeed, internationally, to celebrate this important occasion. What struck me was the amount of new The executive committee is the governing body of the faces that were present at these events.” CPA internationally. It has nine regions, each of which How many of us can say that about the young people in has three representatives, except Africa, which has six our country recognising the Commonwealth and celebrating representatives. That gives an idea of how large it its activities? is—bigger than the Cabinet of our country and most other countries. It meets not weekly—obviously—but The other advantage of an enlarged officer structure only twice a year, with a rotating membership. In fact, is that one would be able to have rotation, so that every each region’s representatives rotate—they are on the region would feel that it had some say at the top table. It committee for three years and then they go—so there is is always the Pacific region that seems to have lost out in no enduring memory within that body to ensure that that regard over the years. It would be easier to have a good governance takes place. rotation system whereby every region could expect that within a period of, say, five years, it would have one of Also, there was a resistance to the idea of changing the officers of the association. the practice whereby the regional secretaries, who are professional people and often clerks in their own countries, Those are my reflections. My international term of could not even sit in on the meetings that take place. office ended in October last year. My successor is Dr Shirin When I pointed out that if messages from the executive Sharmin Chaudhury, the Speaker of the Bangladesh were to percolate through to all the 175 branches of the Parliament. I find her to be a hugely impressive CPA, it would seem essential to put some professional parliamentarian. She has already built upon the role “oomph” behind it, I was told, “Well, no, the regional that the CPA has at the Heads of Government meeting, representatives are the ones who do that.” However, if a and the Maltese have been very accommodating to the regional representative is not at the meeting for any CPA and to the representations that she has made. She reason, there will obviously be a breakdown in is determined to broaden the scope still further of the communication: they cannot get the messages back to Commonwealth women parliamentarians group. She their home branches. Nevertheless, there seems to have represented the CPA at the commission on the status of been resistance, up to now, to the idea that the regional women in New York and she is also keen to promote the representative should do what we normally expect our voice of young people. 417WH Commonwealth Day24 MARCH 2015 Commonwealth Day 418WH

[Sir Alan Haselhurst] of Christians has not been adhered to by some nations; I know that, and I know that the Minister knows it. I believe that there is the opportunity to make the Perhaps in his response to the debate, he could give us CPA at international level more than the sum of its some indication of what he has been able to do through parts, so that we have all that is best in so many different his Department to act within the Commonwealth and regions. In the UK, we do a terrific amount of work in to persuade those Commonwealth nations that perhaps promoting good governance and good relations between do not adhere rigidly or respectfully to the rules about parliamentarians, and I see that in various other regions religious freedom to better that situation. of the Commonwealth as well, but it is about bringing it The Commonwealth forms an integral part of our together. From the centre, we should be disseminating collective identity. We may see it most prominently in best practice, showing that in our own structures we the form of our beloved Commonwealth games. Who have got it right so far as good governance is concerned cannot be impressed by the Commonwealth games? and therefore can preach the message with confidence They are one of the most watched events on television, to others, to remind people continually what our and people are always keen to see the medal tally and Commonwealth means and how we should put its how their country is doing. That is one of the good principles into practice. That should be our constant things that the Commonwealth does. aim, and the more we can put the spotlight on it, the better it will be and the stronger the Commonwealth The work of the Commonwealth reaches all corners will become. of the globe. Often, it is not realised that the Commonwealth is not one organisation but an impressive network of more than 80 societies, institutions, associations, Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): Thank you very organisations and charities that work towards improving much indeed. As we are operating under the rules of the people’s lives. Although it provides a powerful symbol Backbench Business Committee, we will get to hear of our unity, it is much more than that. The work of from Sir Alan for two or three minutes at the end of the these organisations on a vast range of issues, including debate, so that he can sum up the rest of the contributions. helping countries with trade negotiations, should be Perhaps he can tell us how we can get hold of one of the celebrated. The Commonwealth is more than just a CPA ties that he is so handsomely sporting today. commonwealth of nations. For example, it provides an opportunity for trade exchanges and trade negotiations 9.56 am to build our economies, here at home in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Thank you, across the world. Those organisations also work on Mr Hollobone, for calling me to speak. It is a pleasure encouraging women’s leadership and building the small to have a chance to contribute on this matter. business sector and, very aptly in accordance with this First, I thank the right hon. Member for Saffron year’s theme, supporting youth participation at all levels Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) for securing this debate. of society. Whatever time of year this debate happens, it is always I am pleased that the right hon. Gentleman mentioned good to speak in it, and to remember what the Commonwealth youth. I want to focus on that, too. Commonwealth is, what it stands for and what it means Maintaining the strength of the Commonwealth is of to each and every one of us. utmost importance. That is why I welcome the theme of I am thankful for this debate not only because it is on this year’s Commonwealth celebrations: “A Young an important topic but because it is less of a debate and Commonwealth.” When we leave the scene of time, more of a coming together to celebrate the Commonwealth those who are left—the young people—will have to and all the positives that its existence brings. The maintain our Commonwealth. We recognise the advantages Commonwealth is often described as a family of nations this brings to each and every one of us. and peoples, and that is exactly how I and many other The strength of the Commonwealth is in our being people see it. As I have emphasised on many occasions, united by language, history, culture, and most of all, a I am a firm believer in and supporter of the shared view of the value of democracy and all that we Commonwealth, because of all that it symbolises, does expect to come with this. Her Majesty the Queen spoke and stands for. poignantly about what we have worked toward and I believe that to be a nation that upholds the core achieved through co-operation, and what we must do to beliefs that our Commonwealth sets out is a testament ensure continued co-operation. It was apt that Her to the integrity of that nation and, in turn, the substance Majesty spoke on the significance of communication, of its society. I find it difficult to imagine it possible not saying that to come together to talk, to exchange ideas to be proud to be a part of an organisation that affirms and develop common goals, can in itself bring fantastic support for democracy, human rights, tolerance, respect, outcomes, if only those channels of communication are understanding, freedom of expression and gender equality. open to us. Our Commonwealth offers us a clear channel However, while that speaks volumes about the merits of of communication, allowing us to make these wonderful member nations, what makes the loudest noise is the things to which Her Majesty referred happen. success that happens when we pool the abilities, the The emphasis on partnership in discussion of this diversity and the innovation of our respective societies. year’s celebrations should signal to us—no matter our That is when we are strongest, and it is what this debate region—that partnership, co-operation and union is the is about. best way forward. My colleague and hon. Friend the I am very pleased to see the Minister in Westminster Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) mentioned Hall today. I have spoken to him on many occasions that the Republic of Ireland will, hopefully, join the about the persecution of Christians. Sometimes within Commonwealth. That is an aspiration, a wish and a the Commonwealth of nations, preventing the persecution hope. It would be good if it happened. 419WH Commonwealth Day24 MARCH 2015 Commonwealth Day 420WH

Although there is diversity in abundance throughout Commonwealth” event, those born in the post-Good all 53 of our Commonwealth nations, whether in culture Friday era are reaching voting age. We have moved on or size, we have recognised that in spite of this we hold in the peace process and those 18-year-olds will be more in common than not. This commonality and casting their vote. This different generation brings a lot commitment to shared values signals to us that there is of promise and opportunity regarding how they engage great benefit to be found in our continued co-operation, with the political process. We need to challenge the idea not only for us as nation states and parliamentarians, that young people do not care about politics and show but for our respective peoples and all the nations together. them that they should care, and that politics is beyond Again, I want to adopt a positive tone. It is worth our debating in a chamber, whether or not it is a debate drawing on Her Majesty’s words. She said that co-operation on this subject. also helps us avoid what a breakdown in communication I may speak on a regional level, but I know that what can bring. Often, if we do not talk there can be problems. I say will hold gravitas in many other Commonwealth Only through open and continued dialogue can we nations. I believe that, if we renew our younger generation’s address these dangers. The interests and fears we hold interest in the political process, our nations have a in common now perhaps make this continued co-operation bright future in which we can move forward together as more relevant than ever. The common challenges we a Commonwealth. I am sure that the range of face are best met together. We can overcome those Commonwealth day events has been equally impressive issues on the sporting field and the economic field and across all nations and hope that our youth’s claiming it is important that we continue to make that happen. centre stage conveys just how much they matter, now With all the evident positives of co-operation, our and in future. choice to celebrate “A Young Commonwealth” shows I shall quote Her Majesty once more, as her words that we have acknowledged the key to our strong future. perfectly summarise the sentiment I am trying to convey: Our young people are the future of our Commonwealth. “We are guardians of a precious flame, and it is our duty not I hold dear the belief that our Commonwealth will stay only to keep it burning brightly but to keep it replenished for the strong because of the aspirations and commitment of decades ahead.” our young people. Wise words, strong words. Commonwealth day reminds Across all our nations we have bright, innovative and us of this flame that we hold in common. The youth of passionate young minds. Our Commonwealth relies on our Commonwealth are the guardians of this flame and this innovation and passion to give fresh, new impetus I trust and know that they will keep it alight. To to all our collective endeavours. I say this in good maintain the Commonwealth, we must keep that flame conscience as I reflect on the young people of Northern and belief in our Commonwealth alight in our young Ireland. We in Northern Ireland are proud to be part of people. The first step to doing this is ensuring their the Commonwealth. In fact, the Northern Ireland Assembly engagement and their belief in our democratic process. branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association has participated in Commonwealth day for the last 10.6 am seven years, holding a range of themed events. This year’s theme worked in conjunction with the “Rock the Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): I am delighted to Vote” campaign—there is no better time for such a follow the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), campaign than around 7 May—and served as a reminder who emphasised the importance of youth within the of our own responsibility as legislators, which is to keep Commonwealth, as did my hon. Friend the Member for our younger generation engaged in democracy and, Pendle (Andrew Stephenson) in an intervention on my most of all, to motivate them to vote. The campaign right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan focuses on encouraging young people to participate and Haselhurst). I want to return to the role of youth, get involved in the political process, and it is key to perhaps with a glancing reference to Cakegate in Northern meeting the concerns of a young electorate who are Ireland, the meaning of which may become clearer in becoming increasingly disillusioned with the political respect of the main issue that I want to raise. process. We simply cannot let that happen. First, I pay tribute to the leadership that my right The commitment of the Commonwealth to democracy hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden has given and the rule of law holds legitimacy only when our to the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. I do electorate participate. For this reason, we must reach not know whether his speech was circulated beforehand—I out to our young voters and soon-to-be voters. These had not seen a copy—so it came as a delightful surprise young people will be not only voters, but our legislators, to discover that we had crossed paths in 1968 in Singapore. diplomats and parliamentarians. They will be the navigators At the time, I was seven years old and attempting to of the new age of the Commonwealth. In Northern learn to swim at the Tanglin Club. My father was Ireland, these young people will be the navigators of stationed as a colonel on the staff in Singapore, trying our political landscape and of the complexities it brings. to organise the withdrawal of United Kingdom forces In Northern Ireland, we have moved leaps and bounds from their permanent base station. in the political process, as the Minister knows, having I was particularly impressed by my right hon. Friend’s previously been Minister of State for Northern Ireland. leadership of the CPA at the Commonwealth parliamentary His relationship with Northern Ireland came about not conference last October. Although I was elected in only through Parliament, but, I understand, from his 1997, I had not taken the opportunity to attend the service in uniform. Commonwealth parliamentary conference until last year, We in Northern Ireland have moved forward. Our when—having been freed of the responsibilities of young people will be the politicians of tomorrow and ministerial office by the Prime Minister in 2012—it they can meet our future challenges. What is more, and struck me that the Commonwealth and its institutions as mentioned in speeches at the Northern Ireland “AYoung provided a suitable vehicle through which to identify 421WH Commonwealth Day24 MARCH 2015 Commonwealth Day 422WH

[Crispin Blunt] I thank the Royal Commonwealth Society and the Kaleidoscope Trust for their work. They have jointly and work for one of the causes that I intended to use produced a report called “Collaboration and consensus: my parliamentary position to pursue: the protection of building a constructive Commonwealth approach to lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender rights around LGBT rights”, which I commend to all those interested the world. in the advancement of LGBT rights internationally. I Within that nexus, I was happy to become chair of particularly commend it to the Minister who has the parliamentary friends of the Kaleidoscope Trust, a responsibility in this area. non-governmental organisation dedicated to advancing I know that all the Ministers in the Foreign Office the cause of rights for LGBT people around the world, have taken a leadership role on this issue. Only last and to use the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association week, I met the Under-Secretary of State, my hon. as a safe place where it ought to be possible to have Friend the Member for Rochford and Southend East difficult, sensitive conversations with fellow parliamentarians (James Duddridge), to discuss informally how to advance from the 41 of the 53 Commonwealth jurisdictions the agenda. I met the Minister of State, my right hon. where LGBT people are criminalised. That is one of the Friend the Member for East Devon (Mr Swire), to unhappy legacies. One of the things that brings the discuss the issue before the conference last year that the Commonwealth together is the British legal system. previous Foreign Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Many states have on their statute books legislation that Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), held on was in place in the colonial era, reflecting some of the the wider human rights agenda. That conference got less attractive Victorian values that were imposed on significant attention, as it deserved. their societies in a period of British Administration. During his term in office, the previous Foreign Secretary In international terms, the Commonwealth is an was prepared to meet such activists as Dr Frank Mugisha, organisation dealing in soft power rather than hard from Sexual Minorities Uganda. Uganda has been at power and a place where we can bring this extraordinary the centre of the debate. The issue is about giving that range of countries and peoples together to discuss level of moral support by being prepared to meet the issues. As part of that soft support, the CPA is a place activists, who are being unbelievably brave. Their where it is possible to speak to one’s fellow parliamentarians predecessors in these countries have been murdered; to explain the journey that the United Kingdom has that has happened not only in Uganda, but in Jamaica. been on—from active enforcement of the laws in the It is about understanding the courage of people standing 1950s, to a review of them in the Wolfenden report of up for the rights of LGBT people in conditions where 1957, to decriminalisation and then to equality in most popular sentiment is in a very different place from here of the United Kingdom, with the delivery of same-sex and violence is incited against them. That demonstration marriage. of moral support was welcome, and I thank my right The organisation is also about making clear to one’s hon. Friend for giving that signal. fellow parliamentarians that we are not expecting them There is an extreme set of positions on LGBT rights to change—it took 60 years in the United Kingdom—in in Commonwealth countries. In such countries as the one smooth movement, given that they have to operate United Kingdom, New Zealand and Canada, the legal within the popular views of societies where the strongly battle for equality has pretty much been won. Aspects embedded religious organisations and Churches take a remain, although they are perhaps minor in terms of very didactic view of these issues. It is reasonable for us the whole United Kingdom. In Northern Ireland, for to use the CPA to educate, at least in that sense, our example, there is controversy over the same-sex couple fellow parliamentarians and illuminate their experiences. who wanted to buy a cake to celebrate their wedding I commend the leadership given on that issue, not and have something that they thought appropriate written only by my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron on it. If someone is in the business of selling services, Walden in the CPA, but by the serving secretary-general they should be absolutely clear that they cannot discriminate of the Commonwealth. Only three weeks ago, Kamalesh against people who buy those services. That should be Sharma addressed the high level segment of the United utterly straightforward. Nations Human Rights Council in its 28th regular session in Geneva on 3 March. He represents an organisation three quarters of whose jurisdictions outlaw Jim Shannon: The hon. Gentleman mentions a legal people such as me in their statute books. He said: case that will be heard shortly—at the end of this “Mr President, a 2011 report, requested by the Council and month. It may go on for about four weeks, but it would prepared by the Office of the High Commissioner, documented be remiss of me not at least to make a statement on discriminatory laws and practices and acts of violence against Ashers bakery and the stand that it took. It believes that individuals based on their sexual orientation and gender identity, it exercised freedom of expression and that it had a and how international human rights law can be used to end right to do so. I stand strongly behind the Ashers violence and related human rights violations in this area. In bakery, as do others. September last year, this Council adopted a new resolution on the subject, once again expressing grave concern and requesting the High Commissioner to produce an update of the report with a Crispin Blunt: The hon. Gentleman is entitled to take view to sharing good practices and ways to overcome violence that position. However, I hope that he will reflect, as the and discrimination. We look forward to the publication of the case plays out, on what it means when someone wants report. We will be encouraging Commonwealth member states to to buy a service freely available to everyone else but is reflect and act on its actionable recommendations in order to give effect to our shared commitment to dignity, equality and told that they cannot have it because they are gay. nondiscrimination.” I salute the secretary-general for the leadership he is Jim Shannon: That is not what I said. That is a taking. misrepresentation. 423WH Commonwealth Day24 MARCH 2015 Commonwealth Day 424WH

Crispin Blunt: That is, in effect, the hon. Gentleman’s response to the debate, which is relatively close to position. We want to get parliamentarians from all over Commonwealth day, and to hearing his review of such the Commonwealth to empathise with what it actually an extraordinary institution and the opportunities it means for someone to be in such a position. People have presents to advance the rights and status, both economic no control over how they are. We want parliamentarians and social, of all Commonwealth citizens. to find a way to give people the freedom to be as they are and to understand how important that is to them 10.23 am and how unfair it is to have laws on the statute book that discriminate against them. Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): It is a pleasure to The question is one of trying to use the institutions of serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone—we the Commonwealth to educate parliamentarians without both learned how meetings should properly be conducted confrontation. It is a process of education and on Bromley council. understanding, and it is a journey that I have been on. I pay tribute to two individuals. First, the right hon. Given the nature of the societies that we all come from Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst), who and the extraordinary journey that understanding of not only made a distinguished contribution to the debate and attitudes to LGBT rights have made in the United but has played a considerable role in the Commonwealth Kingdom over the past 60 years, I make no criticism of Parliamentary Association—both the UK branch and, colleagues in this place, or parliamentarians in other as he outlined, worldwide. With his usual frankness, he countries, who are yet to have that level of understanding. acknowledged that his work has not been without its Nevertheless, I say to the Minister and the Foreign difficulties. He has played a significant role in trying to and Commonwealth Office that despite all the support move the organisation along. His work is very much from the human rights officers in posts overseas and the appreciated and I hope that it will steadily bear fruit moral support and leadership shown by FCO Ministers, over the coming years. and despite the leadership shown by the Prime Minister Were it not outwith the procedures of the House, I in raising these issues at Commonwealth Heads of would also draw attention to the welcome presence of Government meetings, there comes a moment, as in the chief executive of the UK CPA, who is listening to Uganda, when some small demonstration of firm proceedings from the Public Gallery. Through you, disapproval may be appropriate. Mr Hollobone, I thank him and his staff for the enormous Happily, although the law in Uganda had been made amount of work that they do in maintaining the significantly worse by the Anti-Homosexuality Act, the organisation and assisting individual members. They Act was struck down because it was not passed with the also do great work with the various groups that come required quorum. That has given Uganda an opportunity here from other Commonwealth countries for valuable for a period of reflection about what to do next. In the exchanges of views and ideas, from which I am sure that current circumstances, implementing any kind of sanctions those groups benefit and I know that we do too. or formal methods of disapproval would be inappropriate. I join the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden in Nevertheless, if laws are promoted in Commonwealth paying tribute to the founding father of modern Singapore, countries that make discrimination against LGBT people Lee Kuan Yew, whose death was announced this week. worse, and the situation is made even more difficult and He was a figure not without controversy, but no one can the climate even more uncomfortable for people with a doubt his achievements to the great benefit of his minority sexual orientation, I hope that we would at country, the Association of Southeast Asian Nations least contemplate small measures, such as targeted travel generally and the wider Commonwealth. It is no surprise bans for those responsible for making the situation that his wise counsel was sought by not only his successors worse for a significant percentage of Commonwealth in Singapore, but leaders and diplomats around the citizens. world. That has been evident in the tributes paid to him. On Sir Christopher Wren’s gravestone in St Paul’s cathedral Bearing in mind the population of the whole is the inscription: Commonwealth, we are talking about hundreds of millions “If you seek my monument look around you.” of people being affected by laws heading in the wrong direction. We must use the Commonwealth to allow Looking around modern Singapore, one can see clearly laws and their implementation to follow steadily the the monument to Lee Kuan Yew, as well as his ultimate route taken in the United Kingdom and elsewhere, where achievement of ensuring a system and progress that will we have come to understand that having a minority continue after his demise. sexual orientation is not something that people catch A while ago my local council, Sandwell, was on an but something that they are born with. It is only anti-litter purge, which gained some press coverage. right and proper that people should have the basic Some busybody organisation that hoped to insult Sandwell protections from discrimination that are embedded in dubbed it, the “Singapore of the west midlands”. The the Commonwealth charter and the universal declaration high commission here was slightly concerned, but my on human rights, to which all nations of the Commonwealth local council leaders were immensely flattered by the have signed up. description. In conclusion, I pay tribute again to my right hon. I agree with the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden Friend the Member for Saffron Walden for securing this on the importance of having an annual debate on the debate and, much more importantly, for his outstanding Commonwealth to help us to focus, although I think we leadership of the Commonwealth Parliamentary would hope that future debates do not take place just a Association. He gave us some small flavour of the couple of days before Dissolution. The debate on the challenges that he faced in exercising that leadership. Commonwealth is part of a wider debate about Britain’s The CPA is obviously but one part of all the institutions position and role in the world. Some want to make us of the Commonwealth. I look forward to the Minister’s an inward, insular country, bitter at the outside world. 425WH Commonwealth Day24 MARCH 2015 Commonwealth Day 426WH

[Mr John Spellar] some concerns—and the ability to discuss the issue within the framework of the Commonwealth was very That is not in Britain’s history, nor is it in its interests or much appreciated and understood. destiny. In many ways, it is a replay of the old debate of As I said, this is not only a Commonwealth of nations, “Little England” or “Great Britain”. That relates to our but a Commonwealth of values: parliamentary democracy, membership of the most successful defensive alliance in free trade, universal human rights and, especially, a history, NATO; to the largest single market on the commitment to pluralism. To be frank, in some cases—this planet, the European Union, and to our position as a has been mentioned by a number of hon. Members P5 country at the UN. today—our relations with fellow Commonwealth members No less remarkable was the creation of the can be slightly strained over some issues. The hon. Commonwealth out of the end of empire—a multicultural, Member for Reigate (Crispin Blunt) highlighted a particular multi-ethnic body that has overcome so many of the one. Will the Minister indicate the actions taken and issues of our shared history. Even countries that do not representations made by the Government on the important share that legacy are keen to join the Commonwealth, concerns that the hon. Gentleman expressed? It is right which is a significant tribute in itself—some hon. Members to raise such issues. from Northern Ireland mentioned applicant countries Putting that in the wider context of values and for consideration. Without a hint of superiority or the very welcome Commonwealth charter, I have arrogance, we should take pride in the institutions and another question. At the Perth Commonwealth Heads values that we have introduced worldwide, not least the of Government meeting—CHOGM—there was, as I institution of parliamentary democracy and the rule of understand it, much discussion but postponement of a law with an impartial judiciary.The success of Singapore— final decision on the report of the eminent persons and, interestingly enough, of Hong Kong—is testimony group. Some of its work is reflected in the Commonwealth to the ongoing strength and legacy of an impartial charter, but what further work will be undertaken to judiciary, but it goes much wider. build on that of the eminent persons group? Learning from each other is by no means a one-way The Commonwealth is not simply a static organisation. street. Debates in Westminster Hall derive from the Maintenance of linkages needs to be undertaken and a Australian Parliament: we have a side Chamber with particular one is the “Young Commonwealth” theme. the full value of the main Chamber that allows more Young people make up a significant percentage of the subjects to be debated—not only subjects of interest to populations of many countries in the Commonwealth. individual Members of Parliament but debates such as Focusing attention on that for the future of their societies this one. and of the Commonwealth is extremely welcome. Part of the Commonwealth’s shared history has been There is also the work between states. I pay tribute to in conflict. Throughout the country, we are currently some of that work that the Government have undertaken, commemorating many of the events of the first world in particular by developing relations with India and, war, and we are reminded very strongly and deeply of significantly, in the valuable connections of the AUKMIN their impact. I have been visiting Sikh gurdwaras around group of Australian and United Kingdom Ministers. the country, where tremendous work has been done on The next Labour Government look forward to continuing researching the history and reminding youngsters of the such initiatives. significant contribution of the Sikhs in the first world war. They came to a continent that they had never [MR JAMES GRAY in the Chair] visited and were faced with dramatically different weather However, some of this Government’s actions have conditions, and they fought bravely and at great cost put relations under strain. Only a week or so ago, a against German imperialism. They were only one of the meeting hosted by the Russell Group of universities communities from the then India who participated at echoed and amplified the great complaints of the tertiary great cost to themselves. education sector about the negative impact on them Next month will be the commemoration of the landings and on British industry, commerce and society of our at Gallipoli with services at the Cenotaph and in over-prescriptive visa regime, which has already caused Westminster abbey. The Minister and I are representing a big decline in the number of students from India, our respective parties at those events. The Gallipoli Australia, New Zealand and other Commonwealth action not only defined the character of Australia and countries. Real concerns have also been expressed by New Zealand, but deepened the bonds between their the Governments of Australia and New Zealand about countries and ours. the declining opportunities for their youngsters, many In the absence of the hon. Member for Romford of them our relatives, to spend time working here, (Andrew Rosindell), it would be remiss of me not to contributing to the British economy and gaining experience follow up on the comments of the right hon. Member to take back to their home countries to develop their for Saffron Walden about the unique concerns and growing economies, which, incidentally, are also major problems of small states. Had the hon. Member for trading partners of ours. Romford been present, I am certain that he would have Given the large number of countries in the raised once again the position of the Crown dependencies Commonwealth, I can touch only on a limited number and overseas territories. We need to see how their concerns of them. Mention has been made of the welcome return can be incorporated. Furthermore, on the smaller states, to the Commonwealth of Fiji, which is particularly last year I had the privilege of attending a conference of good news for the British Army. I remember officials at south Pacific states held in New Zealand. That was an the Ministry of Defence telling me that they had had excellent CPA initiative. Those states are under considerable expressions of interest from Fijian soldiers about joining pressure from a China that is seeking to expand its the British Army and asking what we would do about it. influence in the area—they are not hostile but have We set up some protocols but, with some foresight, 427WH Commonwealth Day24 MARCH 2015 Commonwealth Day 428WH

I predicted that that would play havoc with the inter-service couple. Let it be very clear that that is not the case: rugby competition, to the benefit of the Army, although Ashers said that it was unwilling to use the wording that I had not anticipated the havoc in the regimental rugby was requested on the cake. The issue is the right of system, because a number of the Fijians played for those at Ashers bakery to hold fast to their religious some of the previously more minor regiments. It is views. Incidentally, according to the latest poll, the vast welcome that Fiji is back in the Commonwealth, following majority of the population in Northern Ireland—over what is generally regarded as a successful election. 70%—supports them. Obviously we must ensure that such developments continue to make progress, in particular in the field of trade Mr James Gray (in the Chair): I am grateful to the union rights. hon. Gentleman. However, that is not a point of order Concerns have been expressed widely, if not in the but a point of information. He believes that something debate today, about the imprisonment in Malaysia of that another hon. Member has said was incorrect. By Opposition leader Anwar Ibrahim on sodomy charges. his intervention he has put his remarks in Hansard,but My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol East (Kerry what he has raised is not a matter for the Chair. McCarthy) has raised the issue. A number of Opposition Members and activists there have been arrested too. 10.40 am Will the Minister indicate what action our Government The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth have taken in response to such concerns? Office (Mr Hugo Swire): I congratulate my right hon. A number of constituencies have sizeable Bangladeshi Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan communities which, whatever their views or whichever Haselhurst) on securing this debate, whether timely or party in Bangladesh they supported, are concerned otherwise. I thank other hon. Members for their about the escalating tensions in Bangladesh and about contributions. the unnecessary violence and tragic deaths. In the election I pay tribute to the work of my right hon. Friend and in January last year, not all the people of Bangladesh of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, which, were able to express their democratic will fully. Progress as he has outlined so eloquently, has done so much to can be achieved only through dialogue between all forge ties and strengthen democracy across the parties. All sides need to call for restraint and an end to Commonwealth. I associate myself with his warm words violence. The international community should certainly about the founding father of Singapore, Lee Kuan Yew. support Bangladesh in that regard. My right hon. Friend’s commitment to the CPA was On the Maldives, concern about due process has been much in evidence at its recent conference on human expressed about the arrest, conviction and sentencing to rights in the modern-day Commonwealth, at which I 13 years in prison of former President Nasheed. The spoke. He may have come to the end of his tenure as Commonwealth has discussed the matter and is providing chair of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, a measured response. It is important for the Commonwealth but I, like other Ministers across Government and Back to work together to promote democracy and due process. Benchers on both sides of the House, have always As the hon. Member for Reigate indicated, equality is valued his immense contribution. I hope we will continue a significant underpinning of the Commonwealth, but to benefit from his insight and experience on LGBT equality remains a major omission from the Commonwealth matters—I am sure we will. Commonwealth charter. Will the Government pursue I also congratulate and welcome the incoming chair, the issue with individual countries and more generally Dr Shirin Sharmin Chaudhury, Speaker of the Bangladesh in the Commonwealth? Parliament, whom I met earlier this month. I wish her With regard to Sri Lanka, there has been a welcome well and hope she has great success in her new role. I change as a result of the election. It is also important trust that, as her predecessor, my right hon. Friend will for the further upcoming parliamentary elections to be feel able to share with her his clear and well argued free, fair and peaceful. We look forward to the postponed vision for the association’s future. I am certain she will publication of the report of the UN Human Rights continue to enjoy the full support of the excellent CPA Council inquiry, to improvement in relations between secretariat. the communities in Sri Lanka and in the independence I share my right hon. Friend’s deep respect and of the judiciary and the rule of law—justice and admiration for the Commonwealth. Indeed, the accountability—and to the country getting back to Government have made no secret of our strong support rebuilding its economy and society. for that unique organisation. Since my appointment as That is only a small number of the issues facing the Minister for the Commonwealth, I have worked to Commonwealth today, but they indicate its vibrancy in uphold our pledge to put the C back into the FCO, not tackling them, which adds to the ability of the least because, as my ministerial travels have reminded Commonwealth countries to work and trade with each me, we owe our friends in the Commonwealth an enormous other. In particular in Africa, the attempts to break debt of gratitude. I have made it a habit to pay my down customs and other barriers to trade between respects where possible at the many memorials across countries are important and would be to the benefit of the world that commemorate the names of the 1.7 million the countries, which have huge young populations with men and women of the Commonwealth forces who died a real need for employment. The Commonwealth offers in the two world wars, fighting to defend the freedoms a beacon of hope and a mechanism for dealing with we enjoy today. I pay tribute to the Commonwealth such issues. War Graves Commission, which has so beautifully maintained those memorials. Jim Shannon: On a point of order, Mr Gray. The hon. The Commonwealth today is about much more than Member for Reigate (Crispin Blunt) stated that the its past, however. It is a global network of 53 equal Ashers bakery had refused to bake a cake for a same-gender partners, which offers a wealth of opportunities to 429WH Commonwealth Day24 MARCH 2015 Commonwealth Day 430WH

[Mr Hugo Swire] were one of only a few countries to do so. However, we will not cease from actively promoting the issue and work together on trade and on issues such as climate raising it with our Commonwealth partners. change. The hon. Member for East Londonderry The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) (Mr Campbell) spoke passionately about extending the spoke, as he often does, about religious belief and network by one member. I will refrain from commenting freedom from persecution. It is worth pointing out that on that matter, other than to say that it is not a new the Commonwealth has members of every major world idea. religion, including 800 million Hindus, 500 million Muslims To make the most of the opportunities the and 400 million Christians. We believe that tolerance, Commonwealth offers, while never forgetting the shared respect and understanding are Commonwealth values history that brought us all together in the first place, we that are set out in the charter. must spend more time looking to the future. My hon. When discussing religion and LGBT rights, it is perhaps Friend the Member for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson) worth reminding all of what the charter says clearly: pointed out that 60% of the Commonwealth’s population “We are implacably opposed to all forms of discrimination, is under the age of 30. This year’s Commonwealth day whether rooted in gender, race, colour, creed, political belief or on 9 March rightly celebrated that, with the theme “A other grounds.” Young Commonwealth”. At the Commonwealth day We urge our Commonwealth partners to reread what observance at Westminster abbey, I was delighted to see they signed and to act, in due course, upon it. our Commonwealth envoy sat among the high commissioners. For obvious reasons we do not have a We have concerns about political freedoms, too. The British high commissioner in London, and for too long right hon. Member for Warley (Mr Spellar) raised the that has meant that we have not been represented issue of the Maldives. I met a group of Maldivian at a senior level at Commonwealth meetings. The new parliamentarians only last week. If he has followed the post of envoy ensures, for the first time, that we have FCO website and my tweets, he will know that I was a dedicated envoy to represent our views at the the first Minister anywhere in the world to comment on Commonwealth. That important institutional change the arrest of President Nasheed. We continue to monitor will, I believe, make clear to all the value we attach to the situation extremely closely, just as we do the ongoing our membership of the organisation. violence and disruption in Bangladesh. After a successful Commonwealth day, our thoughts We also have Sri Lanka, whose newly elected Government now turn to the next Commonwealth Heads of Government have re-embraced their place in the Commonwealth, for meeting in Malta, where the theme will be “adding which we applaud them. They have committed to work global value”. I am delighted that Her Majesty the with the United Nations to address the alleged human Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh will attend. A future rights abuses of the past. CHOGM is planned to take place in Vanuatu; our We cannot force a change in attitudes, and we understand thoughts are with all those affected by Cyclone Pam. I that implementing the charter will take time—it is a have been to Vanuatu, and have been watching with marathon, not a sprint. However, we have made it clear horror the devastation that has been wreaked upon it. I repeatedly not only that member states have a moral am pleased to say that the United Kingdom is providing obligation to uphold and promote what we agreed in £2 million of immediate support to the people of Vanuatu 2012, but that it is in their national self-interest to do so. through funding to non-governmental organisations Human rights, democratic values, and safe and just and the United Nations. societies are the building blocks of successful nations, I am pleased that, at the next CHOGM, Prime Minister and certainly Commonwealth nations. I do not, therefore, Muscat plans to focus on securing practical outcomes accept the widely held view that the Commonwealth that address the issues that matter most to our members should focus on human rights and democratic institutions and that look at the challenges we share, rather than the or on trade, but not on both. points on which we disagree. We have worked closely Hon. Members mentioned the movement of with Malta to develop a set of institutional changes to Commonwealth citizens and called for us to ease the make the Heads of Government meeting more effective. ability of businesses and students to operate across the We will also elect a new secretary-general, the successor Commonwealth. The Commonwealth secretariat is looking to His Excellency Kamalesh Sharma, whom I warmly particularly at the latter question, and we are working congratulate on all he has achieved within the secretariat. closely with member states on it. Despite the fact that We want to ensure that the best candidate is selected for the Commonwealth has a young, dynamic population the role, no matter where they are from. Whoever it may of more than 2 billion people—they are spread across be, those at CHOGM will have an opportunity to give every inhabited continent, and the majority are united them a clear, focused mandate and a realistic set of by a common language and common legal systems—there priorities upon which to focus in the years ahead. remains much that we can, and must, do to boost trade It was with some passion that my hon. Friend the and investment between us. That is why the Prime Member for Reigate (Crispin Blunt) spoke about LGBT Minister led a high-profile trade delegation to a number issues. Respect for the values set out in the Commonwealth of Commonwealth countries, including India and Malaysia. charter, which was signed by Her Majesty the Queen two years ago this month, is regrettably not consistent The shadow Minister mentioned the arrest of Anwar. across the Commonwealth. Despite the work we have I was in Malaysia last month, and I made very clear our done to promote the rights of lesbian, gay, bisexual, concerns. We continue to monitor the situation extremely and transgender citizens of the Commonwealth, closely. many, as we have heard, continue to suffer persecution. However, let me return to trade, which is the reason I actively raised our concerns at the last Heads of why we organised the Commonwealth Games business Government meeting, and was disappointed that we conference in July 2014. It is also why the work of my 431WH Commonwealth Day24 MARCH 2015 Commonwealth Day 432WH noble Friend Lord Marland’s Commonwealth Enterprise sometimes in the margin of conferences—one perhaps and Investment Council, and of the Commonwealth begins to establish a common understanding, which business forum at the Heads of Government meeting, is may, over time, lead to a softening of positions and to so important, and I warmly applaud the connection greater accord. with the City of London, to which my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden alluded. The close That requires people to use part of their parliamentary involvement of those bodies with businesses is generating life to talk with others. One frightening thing about innovative ideas to realise the Commonwealth’s vast yet the world in the past was that people did not have the largely untapped potential for trade, which the hon. opportunity to travel or to meet others. I think of the Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) rightly dark days of the 1930s, when, had more people from mentioned. We must continue to make the most of such this country travelled in Europe, there would have been opportunities. greater enlightenment about what was happening, which might have averted catastrophe. Similarly, if more people Let me restate that the Government remain deeply had had the opportunity to travel to distant parts of the committed to the Commonwealth. However, in a world world, as they do today, they would have come away where taxpayers rightly expect to know why institutions with a better understanding of how interdependent we exist and what they achieve, and where competing bodies all are and of how our general welfare can be advanced and organisations cover every area of international and the causes of conflict can be reduced. activity, Commonwealth members share a duty to work together to ensure that this great organisation is ready We have a great role in the Commonwealth, which we and fit to tackle the challenges, and seize the opportunities, must allow to be an exemplar of tolerance, understanding of the 21st century. and respect for parliamentary democracy and human I thank my right hon. Friend for the opportunity to rights. The more we can air that view and be practical debate these issues. I also thank him for everything he ambassadors, the better. I hope the media will not has done for the CPA—for his continuing involvement trivialise that or suggest that engaging in such things in it and for his guidance, which I am sure his successor somehow means that we are neglecting our role. What will come to rely on in the years ahead. This is possibly finer role could there be than to enhance understanding the last debate on this subject in this Parliament, so let across the world or to uphold the values of the me also thank all hon. and right hon. Members who Commonwealth? We should therefore stand tall. We have shown an interest in, and a passion for, the should say that there are important missions we must Commonwealth, which is in good shape to meet the undertake and that we do so with pride under the CPA demands of an ever-changing, complicated and, at times, banner—and even wearing the CPA tie, to which I extremely dangerous world. boldly referred, and which can be obtained, I have no doubt, by applying to the chief executive of our branch 10.54 am in the near future. Sir Alan Haselhurst: First, I thank colleagues for the Finally, I echo what the right hon. Member for Warley kind remarks that have come in my direction. We are all (Mr Spellar) said: we owe a great deal to the staff of the committed to ensuring the continued strength of the UK branch. Officials throughout our Parliament help Commonwealth. us with all this work, and they contribute freely to it. However, the core staff of the CPA UK branch have I am pleased so much has been said about youth and done an enormous amount of work, which is copied in human rights. Much more work has to be done to many other parts of the Commonwealth. We know the ensure that that 60% of the Commonwealth population— amount of work they generate and the expertise they young people under 30—feel that there is a point to the bring to it, and they earn compliments from all our Commonwealth and representative parliamentary visitors for the way they organise things. That is at the democracy and that their voice can be heard. heart of our work in the UK branch, and we must try to We have to wear away at the differences on human ensure that best practice is spread throughout the rights. This, I think, is where we all believe that soft Commonwealth so that the CPA can do its jobs more diplomacy can play its part. If one flings comments effectively in the future. We can then be increasingly back and forth by e-mail or in the press, there is a proud as the Commonwealth advances in upholding danger that one simply causes positions to become the standards we believe are the right and proper way entrenched. When one meets and talks to people— forward. 433WH 24 MARCH 2015 Kettering General Hospital 434WH

Kettering General Hospital Although Kettering general hospital has difficulties and challenges, it is raising its game, and that is due largely to the tremendous dedication of the doctors, 10.58 am nurses, ancillary staff, management and clerical staff at the hospital, who are in a joint endeavour to deliver the Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): It is a huge best care they can. There is extremely good news to pleasure and privilege to serve under your chairmanship, report. The Department of Health tells me that in Mr Gray. May I, through you, thank Mr Speaker for 2012-13 there were 85,497 in-patient finished consultant giving me the honour of debating what is an important episodes at the hospital, compared with 84,602 in 2011-12. subject for my constituents? There has been a focus on accident and emergency I welcome the Minister to his place. He has taken a waiting time targets, and in the past few years Kettering keen personal interest in the future of Kettering general general hospital has moved from being one of the worst hospital. The hon. Member for Corby (Andy Sawford) in the country to one of the best. All hospitals in the and my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough country have been under pressure this winter, but it (Mr Bone) are also here, and I hope they will make would be wrong to give the impression that fewer people many interventions to stress the role they have played in are being treated at Kettering A and E. The reverse is working with me to secure the hospital’s future. Indeed, true. In 2010-11 76,099 people presented themselves to I am pleased to report that the three of us have been A and E. In 2012-13 the number was 84,055. Record working closely together on a cross-party basis for the numbers of people are being treated there. past few years, because we recognise that local people want party politics taken out of the future of our local Andy Sawford: The hon. Gentleman will have been hospital. It is a personal issue for the three of us, struck, as I was, at being told that the accident and because we and our relatives use it, as do local people. emergency department was built for 20,000 patient visits a year, given that recent figure of 84,000. I endorse his Kettering general hospital has been on its present site remarks about change and progress in the past few for 118 years. Local people have been born there and years. To what does he attribute that? He mentioned the treated there, and they have died there. It is a much-loved staff, and I agree. There has also been a change in the district general hospital at the heart of the community leadership of the hospital. However, perhaps it is also to of Kettering and north Northamptonshire. It is a key do with the way the local health partners and organisations, priority for local people that its future should be secure, including the clinical commissioning groups, have come so that it can continue to offer the best treatment to the together with the hospital more effectively through the increasing number of people living in the area. Kettering work that we have been involved in with them, particularly and north Northamptonshire are growing rapidly. Over with a view to improving A and E. the past decade the borough of Kettering had the sixth most rapid household growth out of 348 districts in the Mr Hollobone: The hon. Gentleman is right, of course. country, and that population increase is set to continue He gives a tantalising flavour of the climax of my into the next decade. speech, which will be about the urgent care hub proposal for Kettering general hospital, on which he, I and my Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): I thank the hon. hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough have been Gentleman for his kind remarks about our cross-party working together. working, which our constituents throughout north Northamptonshire welcome. It has helped us in our Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): It is a pleasure approaches to the Minister and local health partners, to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray.I congratulate and in bringing them together. my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. On the point about population, does the hon. Gentleman Before he moves on to the climax, which we are all agree that we should emphasise the fact that as well as waiting to hear, may I mention, in addition to the work having, like most of the country, an ageing population, of the hospital and its staff, the contribution of support we also have one of the highest birth rates? Indeed, my organisations? One of those is Crazy Hats, a local constituency has the highest, but the birth rate is high breast cancer charity run by Glennis Hooper, who is a throughout north Northamptonshire. There is demand remarkable lady. All three of us MPs took part in the at both ends of the population, as well as, of course, charity walk on Sunday. from people of working age. Mr Hollobone: Yes—not only have we three north Mr Hollobone: That is very pertinent. Demographic Northamptonshire Members worked on a cross-party pressures are hitting us from every angle. There is a high basis to secure the future of our local hospital, but we birth rate in Corby and east Northamptonshire. Increasingly, all dressed up in funny outfits on Sunday to walk in my constituency as well as the hon. Gentleman’s and around Wicksteed park in Kettering in support of Glennis that of my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough, Hooper and the marvellous work she does for Crazy the population is ageing. Whereas 30 years ago an Hats, which raises money for cancer treatment and care elderly patient might go to hospital with a particular for our constituents. I suppose that it is part of an MP’s condition, now it is even older people who are going job on occasion to dress up in a funny costume and there, with multiple conditions needing treatment at the look silly for the benefit of constituents, and we are all same time. Kettering general hospital, like all hospitals, pleased to do that. must raise its game when treating such vulnerable members Some further good news about Kettering general of the community. It is not only population numbers, hospital, from Department of Health statistics, is that but the number of young and old patients that creates finished consultant episodes when any procedure took a challenge. place in the hospital—which I think is bureaucracy-speak 435WH Kettering General Hospital24 MARCH 2015 Kettering General Hospital 436WH for the number of operations—went up from 49,638 in with its health and social care partners. It is developing 2010 to 53,869 in 2013. I am told that there are 43 more what is essentially a one-stop shop for our constituents hospital doctors and 55 more nurses than in 2010 and who need urgent medical care. there is a 24% increase in diagnostic tests, a one third The aim is to develop a £30 million urgent care hub increase in the number of people treated for cancer and on the hospital site that will combine secondary care, a 71% increase in the number of MRI scans performed. hospital A and E and urgent care assessment with Of course just two years ago the £30 million foundation primary care—in other words, GP services, minor injury wing was opened. It has a 16-bed intensive care unit, a care and social and community care services. The proposal 28-bed cardiac unit and a 32-bed children’s unit. That has arisen because there has been significant growth in was massive new investment in our local hospital. demand for that type of urgent care in the local health It should not be forgotten—and we three Members of economy of our three constituencies, partly due to a Parliament for the area do not forget—that increasingly 30% population growth over the past 19 years, with Kettering general hospital offers our constituents world-class another 9% expected by 2020, and a rise in the population health care. The latest example of that is the cardiac of older people, about which we have spoken. There has investigations department, which has received national also been a massive 83% increase in the use of A and E recognition for its high standards in heart ultrasound over the past 20 years as a means of accessing urgent scanning. Every year 8,000 of our constituents are care. patients through that unit, which provides ultrasound scans of the heart. Those can reveal diseases such as Mr Bone: My hon. Friend is outlining an exciting heart failure and valve diseases. new project. The scheme will include a minor injuries and accidents unit at the Isebrook hospital, which will Andy Sawford: That shows what huge progress has relieve up to 40% of my constituents from having to go been made. A little over 10 years ago, my granddad had to Kettering. It is bang next to a 24-hour GP service, so a heart attack and had to wait in a bed in Kettering that is exciting for my constituents, too. general for six weeks to be transferred to Glenfield hospital in Leicester for a stent. Such operations can Mr Hollobone: My hon. Friend has rightly made that now be done as a day case at Kettering general. issue a priority for his constituents, and he has led an effective campaign on it. That facility will be similar to the facility currently in operation in Corby. The idea is Mr Hollobone: The hon. Gentleman is right. That is a to treat people as locally as possible so they do not have good example of the way Kettering general hospital has to present themselves at Kettering’s A and E department. raised its game to tackle local health needs. Increasingly, It is all part of making local health care delivery more our constituents do not have to go to Glenfield, because efficient and effective, and my hon. Friend is right to they can get better care at their local hospital. In the highlight it. case in question, that is because of the £300,000 investment in three state-of-the-art ultrasound scanners, which can show the heart in three dimensions. The 16-strong cardiac Andy Sawford: Does the hon. Gentleman agree about investigations team has been awarded accreditation by one of the things we have made progress on—particularly the British Society of Echocardiography, which is an through the cross-party campaign and the cross-working affiliate of the British Cardiovascular Society. That of the organisations involved? Although there are sometimes accolade is not given lightly. Kettering hospital is one of particular interests in individual towns and communities, only 38 in the country to have achieved that accreditation; we have looked at the bigger picture for the whole of some specialist centres, such as Glenfield, Papworth, our area. There are benefits for individual towns. The John Radcliffe and Coventry, have not yet attained it. hon. Gentleman is right to say that I want to build on the success of the urgent care centre, but, in the end, The £4 million upgrade of the maternity department when A and E—in particular, trauma services—is needed, at Kettering general hospital started in December. An it is going to be there relatively locally for everybody in average of 10 babies per day are delivered at the hospital— north Northamptonshire. including the babies of Members who are here today. It is part of an £18 million investment in the hospital. Mr Hollobone: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely In coming to the climax of my remarks, I want to talk right. Although we want to see far more local delivery about the innovative proposal for an urgent care hub at of efficient NHS services in particular constituencies, the hospital—my colleagues will appreciate this, because all three of us accept that the vital part of the local we have been working on it together. Over the past few health economy is the success of Kettering general months, the hospital has been liaising with partners and hospital. If it were not there—if it were in Northampton, developing a strategic case for an urgent care hub on the Milton Keynes, Bedford or Luton—local NHS delivery hospital site to tackle long-term, urgent care pressure for our constituents would be far worse. We have to relating to population growth, about which we have make Kettering general hospital a success. We can help spoken; age and acuity; and increasing public demand it along its way with the innovative establishment of for prompt access to urgent care. success stories such as the urgent care centre in Corby In December, the trust shared its strategic case with and the new facility at Isebrook, but the key to success the foundation trust regulator, Monitor, which is currently for all our constituents is to make Kettering general considering the proposal. If Monitor approves the case, hospital a success story for the future. it will go on to an outline business case and finally a full The hub concept developed by the trust and business case for approval by Monitor, the Department supported by all three of us is a partnership with the of Health and the Treasury. The key to its success is that bodies that purchase NHS services, such as the clinical the hospital has been working in close collaboration commissioning groups, the Northamptonshire Healthcare 437WH Kettering General Hospital24 MARCH 2015 Kettering General Hospital 438WH

[Mr Hollobone] will have 3 million patients with not one or two, but three long-term medical conditions—it could be diabetes, NHS Foundation Trust and the social care provider, dementia, heart disease or chronic obstructive pulmonary Northamptonshire county council. If successful, the disease. urgent care hub would effectively provide a one-stop Caring for patients with complex medical needs is a shop for GP services and out-of-hours care; an on-site challenge for our whole country, and I know it has been pharmacy; a minor injuries unit; facilities for social one of the main drivers of increased admissions to services and mental health care; access to community A and E in Kettering. The acuity, which is the severity care services for the frail elderly; a replacement for the of the illness or medical admission, is a key issue that hospital’s A and E department, which is now 20 years has been picked up by the A and E consultants and old; and a new A and E services area, which will provide doctors with whom I have discussed the challenges even better acute emergency care and integrated assessment faced locally by the trust. Supporting a better way of to ensure that patients see the right specialists right caring for people with long-term conditions and the away. frail elderly is at the heart of the proposals for the care The three of us have been to see the Minister with the hub that my hon. Friend outlined. hospital and the CCGs, so the Minister knows that we I want to take this opportunity to recognise the are all as one in believing that the urgent care hub outstanding work done by NHS staff up and down the concept is the right one for the health economy in north country. On this occasion, it is appropriate to draw Northamptonshire. It mirrors the way in which NHS attention to NHS staff working in and around Kettering— England would like to see pioneering health care delivered not only in the hospital, but in general practice, community in the future. As David Sissling, the chief executive of mental health teams and palliative care teams. The the hospital, said, commitment across the board in Kettering to delivering “This integrated approach is also something that NHS England the highest-quality patient care is an example of what has highlighted is an important principle in its Five Year Forward View for the NHS and it also fits with” the NHS is all about, and it is right to recognise the dedication of front-line staff in the Kettering area. the collaborative programme happening in Northampton- shire. I want to take the opportunity also to commend formally my hon. Friend for the outstanding interest I hope that when the Minister responds to this debate, that he has shown in standing up for the best interests of in which all three MPs have sung from the same hymn local patients throughout this Parliament and for his sheet and said with one voice that we need the urgent dedication in never missing an opportunity to raise care hub for the betterment of our constituents’ health, questions in this Chamber and in the main Chamber he will reiterate his support for the proposal. Whoever during Health questions or to raise the case of his wins the election in our three constituencies and whoever constituents in the Department of Health with me as forms the next Government, this important proposal the responsible Minister. It has been a pleasure to do all must happen, for all our constituents. I can to support him, his constituents and Kettering hospital. 11.17 am My hon. Friend is right to highlight the recent investment The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health in the hospital. That is due in no small part to his (Dr Daniel Poulter): It is a pleasure to serve under your advocacy and that of other hon. Members in consistently chairmanship, Mr Gray. I congratulate my hon. Friend raising the needs of Kettering hospital and the local the Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) on securing population. My hon. Friend will recall that when we this debate. I also commend him and our colleagues met in January to discuss health services in his constituency in the Chamber—my hon. Friend the Member for and the plans that his local NHS has to deal with some Wellingborough (Mr Bone) and the hon. Member for of the pressures that it faces, we talked about some Corby (Andy Sawford)—for their consensual and cross- promising ideas. I will discuss those in more detail in a party approach to tackling the challenges of the local moment. health economy and addressing the needs of local patients. It is working together, as a group of MPs, that has Before I do so, it would be appropriate to say a few helped to deliver success for the local hospital. That words more generally about the pressures that the health cross-party consensus is an example of what should be service has faced during a difficult winter, how they done. My hon. Friend the Member for Kettering is right have been handled and what we have done to support that good health care is not political; it is about doing the health service both in Kettering and more generally. the right thing by patients, and that is the approach that We know that parts of the NHS can and have come hon. Members here today have taken in addressing under pressure because of unprecedented demand, linked local health concerns. to the challenges of our ageing population. Compared A number of the points raised today are ones we have with four years ago, every day the NHS sees 16,000 more talked about in meetings at the Department of Health. I hospital out-patients, performs 10,000 more diagnostic have taken a keen interest in supporting Kettering in its tests and carries out 3,500 more operations, and there future ambitions and in supporting my hon. Friend in are 2,000 extra ambulance journeys. Every year, 1.3 million his strong advocacy of the needs of local patients and more people visit accident and emergency departments. his local hospital. As he rightly outlined, this is a part of Despite the extra demand, our NHS is performing the country with a growing population, due to increasing well and treating the vast majority of people quickly. It housing growth and the plans to increase housing growth is particularly important that it is dealing with the most in the future. As in all parts of the country, there is unwell patients first. That is possible because we have increased pressure on medical services from an ageing taken, even in difficult economic times, the decisions population with complex health care needs. By 2018, we that have allowed us to increase the NHS budget by 439WH Kettering General Hospital24 MARCH 2015 Kettering General Hospital 440WH

£12.7 billion over this Parliament. Of course, that has As I said, I have followed developments in Kettering allowed us to support Kettering hospital with local with keen interest. It is worth saying that since October investment, which my hon. Friend outlined. 2012, when Monitor found the trust to be in breach of The NHS is also on track to deliver up to £20 billion its licence in relation to consistently poor A and E in efficiency savings over this five-year period. That performance, considerable progress has been made. That challenge was outlined by the former chief executive of is in no small part down to the work of the local NHS the NHS, Sir David Nicholson, in 2009. Even to stand and the local health care teams. To date, in 2014-15—I still and even with increased investment going into the am now bringing the House up to date—the Department NHS, it needed to make greater efficiencies. As a result has provided £7.4 million of revenue support and £5 million of reforms and modernisation, we expect to save £4.9 billion of emergency capital to the trust. Over the winter, the over this Parliament and £1.5 billion a year from 2014 trust fully activated its winter plans, building on initiatives onwards. All of that will go directly back into front-line that proved successful in previous years. care in Kettering and elsewhere. That work included an enhanced weekend discharge team, detailed plans allowing escalation when there was Andy Sawford: I thank the Minister for generously a busy period, and appropriate use of short-stay facilities, giving way, especially as the debate was secured by the including an observation unit and ambulatory care hon. Member for Kettering. The Minister makes a unit. Those short term measures are designed to ensure point about efficiencies, but will he comment on the that services continue in times of pressure, but the issue of geography, which we have not really touched intention, quite rightly—building on the point about on? We have talked about demand, but this is a critical better integrating health and social care and what happens issue for north Northamptonshire. The geography of in the community with what happens at the hospital—is our area is such that for people to have to rely on a to move to a position whereby there is the ability to hospital other than Kettering would mean considerable cope with pressure all year round and not just during travel time. As someone who represents a rural area, I the winter. The urgent care hub has that integrated can say that that is an efficiency that we would not want delivery model at its heart. to make. We would prefer to say, “Look, we want our local hospital. We recognise that there are challenges in The hub, as my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering sustaining a local hospital, but the geography of our outlined, would incorporate existing A and E services area is such that we want to keep hold of it.” and facilities, but also include, for example, GP services and out-of-hours care, an on-site pharmacy, a minor Dr Poulter: The hon. Gentleman makes a very important injuries unit, facilities for social services, facilities for and valid point. As well as improving the way our NHS mental health care—that is particularly important and buys goods and services—improving procurement practice, sometimes overlooked, but not in this case—and access an issue that we discussed with members of the local to community care services for the frail elderly. Those health care team from Kettering when they visited me in services would facilitate rapid assessment, diagnosis the Department of Health—improving estate management and treatment by appropriate health and social care and taking other measures of obvious efficiency, there professionals. Patients would be streamed into appropriate is a need, outlined clearly in NHS England’s “Five Year treatment areas to minimise delays and reduce the need Forward View”, to radically transform the way we for admissions. deliver care. My hon. Friend the Member for Kettering The hub’s location is, I am told, still being finalised, made that point. It is now a priority to care better for but options include clearing and redeveloping existing frail elderly people through better integrating health areas of the hospital or developing a new build on the services. I am talking about using the hospital potentially site. The local NHS envisages that a capital investment as a hub for vertical integration of services, particularly of approximately £30 million, as my hon. Friend outlined, in more rural areas. That will mean that other health will be required. However, that figure will be subject to services—community health services, general practice further detailed assessment as part of the business and mental health services—can be supported and planning process. integrated with the hospital service as a hub-and-spoke model of care. The principle of the hub is absolutely the right way Crucial to that as well is integrating what the social forward for the local NHS. It is the type of integrated care service does at the same time and having an approach care model that we need elsewhere in the country, that joins up what health and social care have to offer. particularly where the NHS is servicing a broad population. Taking advantage of the better care fund that has been In this case, it is servicing not just Kettering, but a set up at local level, so that the local authority can work partially rural county and rural area. This is a model more collaboratively with the NHS, is very important. that I am sure hon. Members will continue to support It is often very difficult to define where social care ends and that I will continue to have a keen interest in and health care begins, because staff are dealing with supporting. I hope the plans will be successful at making the same person, with the same care needs, but traditionally the improvements that patients in my hon. Friend’s a silo approach has been taken to the delivery of care. constituency and the area surrounding Kettering want. We need to break down institutional silos and deliver There are encouraging signs. The improvements envisaged more personalised care. That is at the heart of integrating are significant and would ensure that the local area had care—at the heart of the hub-and-spoke model built a resilient and high-quality health care system to deliver around Kettering hospital. It draws on the importance the highest-quality patient care. I again thank my hon. of joining up what the local authority does with what Friend the Member for Kettering for securing the debate. the NHS does. That is particularly important in more rural areas, such as the one that the hon. Member for 11.29 am Corby represents. Sitting suspended. 441WH 24 MARCH 2015 Vaccine Damage Payments Act 442WH

Vaccine Damage Payments Act will be looked after. The system needs to be reformed to be more consumer-friendly, so that on close calls on causation, consumers or patients are given the benefit [MR MARTIN CATON in the Chair] of any doubt, as we see in the USA. In the last four years, no awards of any compensation have been made 2.30 pm for vaccine injury, despite hundreds of applications. Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): A The system is not working. few colleagues are here this afternoon, Mr Caton, but our all-party parliamentary group for vaccine damaged Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) people has more than 120 members, so I suspect that (Lab): I use this opportunity to apologise to you, Mr Caton, some of them will be dropping in and out as the and to my hon. Friend, because I have to leave soon to afternoon progresses. be at Downing street at 3 o’clock to present a petition with people with learning disabilities about things, such I am delighted to have secured today’s debate and I as Winterbourne View home, that ought not to be am pleased that we have been joined by the families of happening. I apologise that I have to leave, but I congratulate vaccine-damaged people, some of whom have seen their my hon. Friend on his wonderful work, and the all-party children grow from having been vaccine-damaged in group. Above all, I congratulate the vaccine victim infancy to men and women who are now in their 40s and support group and the indomitable Olivia Price on the 50s. However, when I say I am delighted to have secured fantastic fight that they have conducted over many the debate, after attempting to do so regularly since years. I hope that they get the success and the response early January, the fact is that the all-party group, of that my hon. Friend and this debate invites. which I am the chairman, really wanted at some point to meet the Minister, so that she could hear what the Mr Brown: I thank my right hon. Friend for his families go through on a daily basis with their—it is a intervention. Those of us who know him realise that he bit difficult to say “children”, because, as I said, some of is a champion for those less fortunate in society, and those children are now in their 40s and 50s. However, I especially for the disabled. I recognise that he has a want to share some of those experiences and difficulties, family member who was vaccine damaged as a child. and I know that colleagues in the Chamber today will want to do likewise. Why is the coverage of the scheme so patchy here in the UK? Adults are almost all excluded—why should The all-party group supports families in their view that be? All seasonal flu vaccines and all hepatitis vaccines that the Vaccine Damage Payments Act 1979 is now are excluded—why? That is not an effective safety net. out-of-date and should be reformed. Let me be absolutely clear: from the very first meeting that I attended in the Recently, more than 70 people suffered narcolepsy as ’90s of the then all-party parliamentary group for vaccine- a result of the swine flu vaccine. That is a very serious damaged children, the families have been resolute in condition, but the Department for Work and Pensions their support for the Government’s vaccination programme, has refused to accept that it amounts to a 60% disability and they firmly believe in the concept of herd immunisation. and has appealed against a tribunal finding that it is a severe disability. The Department should fight consumers The Pearson commission was a major inquiry into less and support them more. civil damages in the 1970s. It recommended that the Government should accept liability to pay full compensation Awards of compensation for vaccine injury should be for vaccine injury on the basis that vaccine injury is the available—that is compensation measured by the amount very occasional price that society pays for the benefit of of loss actually suffered, not an arbitrary amount. defeating disease through national vaccination programmes. Reform could be a win-win, in that we could promote social justice and ensure an increase in the rate of At that time, vaccines were not such a major part of vaccination that will benefit society as a whole. the public health programme as they are today. During the intervening years, vaccines have greatly grown in Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): I importance and use. It was always intended to be a also congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate temporary measure—a £10,000 payment on account and give my apologies because I, too, will have to leave pending the outcome of the Loveday case. Now the before the end of the debate. Does he agree that some of award is £120,000, but that is not adequate compensation the reluctance to reform the current procedures and the for someone who is seriously and profoundly disabled. Act is similar to some of the reluctance that was there It is not adequate to say that consumers should sue as when we tried to uprate it in the first place? These things an alternative. No civil claim has ever succeeded for are complex and there are all sorts of aspects to them, vaccine injury in this jurisdiction. That is not because but the first thing to do, surely, is sit down, work people in the UK are different from elsewhere in the through where the problems are and work out what world; it reflects the fact that our legal system is not needs to be done. From my point of view, the important claimant-friendly. The situation has got much worse thing is that the Minister should meet the families to since legal aid has been abolished. It is now impossible look at what is going on in practice and what can be to take on a multinational pharmaceutical corporation, done about it. as the costs of a claim are so high that no one could possibly afford it. Court fees have just been increased by Mr Brown: My hon. Friend is exactly right. Today, we some 600%, so it costs £10,000 just to issue a claim, are looking at—it is in the debate’s long title—reform of which has not helped the situation. this legislation. As will become clear as I progress through It is in the interests of society that the rate of uptake my contribution, we really need to reach a decision on of vaccines is kept high to achieve that herd immunity. whether this is about reform or about ripping it up, That needs an effective safety net, so that consumers are throwing it in the bin and starting again, because we assured that in the event of a serious disablement, they have moved on significantly since 1979. 443WH Vaccine Damage Payments Act24 MARCH 2015 Vaccine Damage Payments Act 444WH

As I was saying, reform could be a win-win, in that countries have established such systems. The scheme in we could promote social justice and ensure an increase this country is administered by the Department for in the rate of vaccination that would benefit society. I Work and Pensions, with appeals being resolved within believe that vaccine manufacturers are strongly in favour Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service. We are of such a change and are willing to contribute to a now 36 years on, and the system has continued, with fund—and, I hope, to discussions. relatively minor changes only. It is unconscionable to relegate so many people who The vaccine victim support group and the all-party are disabled to a battle over causation, and for justice, group contend that reform of the system is highly and it undermines rates of uptake of vaccines not to desirable to deal with anomalies that now exist in the have an effective system. The numbers of those seriously system, to reflect the changing landscape of today, to injured are low, so the total cost of full compensation reassure the public about the safety and efficacy of would be affordable and would be self-financed through vaccination, to reduce litigation and to promote and the increase in vaccination and the reduction in the extend the uptake of vaccination to promote health and burden of disease in society. the elimination of disease. Both groups support the UK Towards the end of last year, I met two parents down national vaccination programme and recognise that the here in London. They related to me the stories of their benefits of vaccination outweigh the risks. Vaccines daughters, who had both had a reaction to the human have significantly contributed to the elimination of disease, papilloma virus vaccine. We dedicated the last meeting the increase in life expectancy and the improvement in of the all-party group, on 14 January, to hearing from public health. some young women who were able to attend, but mainly Reform of the UK system of statutory vaccine injury from the parents of several young women who had had compensation has the prospect of achieving important a severe reaction to the HPV vaccine. I think that it is tangible benefits for the UK that mean that it would be safe to say that the majority of those cases centred on irresponsible not to explore and effect reform through those young women now finding themselves profoundly consultation with all relevant stakeholders, which include affected by what can only be described as symptoms the pharmaceutical industry, the Department of Health similar to those of ME—myalgic encephalomyelitis—or immunisation team, the DWP and, via support groups, chronic fatigue syndrome. All those girls had been fit affected individuals. and healthy, were doing well academically and had the The Act was brought into being by Parliament to put social life that we would expect any teenager to have. on a statutory footing a system of ex gratia awards of compensation for vaccine injury that had developed Sir Tony Cunningham (Workington) (Lab): To emphasise during the 1970s, largely as a result of whole-cell whooping just how serious the consequences are, I point out that cough and smallpox vaccine injury. The Department of Steve Hinks’s daughter, to whom my hon. Friend may Health had made a number of ex gratia awards to be referring, is often asleep for 23 hours a day. That is individuals who had suffered serious permanent disability how serious the consequences are. as a result of catastrophic brain injury that they had suffered as infants shortly after DPT—diphtheria, pertussis Mr Brown: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. and tetanus—vaccination. He is exactly right. It was absolutely astounding to hear The Government had commissioned Professor David the heartbreaking stories at our last meeting and to Miller to conduct the national childhood encephalopathy think that a young woman who had been fit and healthy study—NCES—a large-scale epidemiological study of now suddenly finds herself asleep for most of the day incidents of brain injury and onset of seizure disorders and has to be awakened on an ongoing basis to be fed. following DPT vaccination. The study, published in That is no quality of life at all. Something is seriously May 1981, found a significant association between DPT wrong. The worlds of these young women have been vaccination and severe neurological injury and death. turned upside down. For some of them, being able to The statutory scheme initially required an 80% and spend a few hours at school in a week is a major permanent level of disability to have been suffered, but challenge. That issue could probably merit an Adjournment later that threshold was reduced to 60%. Awards were debate on its own. I am aware that the hon. Member for initially £10,000. That was increased, in various changes, Reigate (Crispin Blunt) held a short debate on the topic to £20,000, then £30,000 and then £40,000. The level of back in May 2009. It is worth pointing out that there payment was largely based on the understanding that are serious concerns about the manner in which an that was interim compensation pending the outcome of individual’s allergic reaction to a vaccine is recorded—it the litigation against the Wellcome Foundation. might be better put as “not recorded” in many cases. In 1986, the United States enacted the National Where there is an allergic reaction, it is only right that it Childhood Vaccine Injury Act. That established a system is properly recorded, so that we can not only determine of compensation in the US court of federal claims. Until what is happening to the individual but get a broader four years ago, that had awarded compensatory damages perspective. in 2,806 cases, of which 1,266 involved the DPT vaccine, In October 2011, a proposal paper was produced by use of which ceased in 1996. That involved an outlay at the vaccine victim support group—an unincorporated that time of $2.2 billion. The fund to administer the association with more than 300 members—and the scheme is established from a small tax on each dose of all-party group for vaccine damaged people. They came vaccine. That has proved relatively successful in the together and were looking for reform of the Vaccine United States, and our all-party group has wondered Damage Payments Act, which established in the UK a for a long time why we do not in the UK, for every vaccine statutory no-fault system of a single lump sum payment that is given, put into a fund a couple of pence. That is from public funds for cases of proven serious permanent all it would take to deal with this issue. However, that disablement resulting from vaccination. Most developed has been rejected not only by this Government, but by 445WH Vaccine Damage Payments Act24 MARCH 2015 Vaccine Damage Payments Act 446WH

[Mr Russell Brown] they are being developed to combat many sources of disease, such as malaria, candida, chlamydia, E. coli, the Labour Government in the 13 years for which they genital herpes, hepatitis E, strep, rheumatoid arthritis, were in office. I think that we need to reconsider where various cancers and numerous others. we are. There have been episodes of public concern about In 1988, the court in Loveday v. Renton and the adverse reaction to vaccinations such as DPT in the Wellcome Foundation dismissed the claimants’ claims. 1970s, MMR in the late 1990s and early 2000s and, The judge found that the claimants had failed to establish more recently, the HPV vaccine. Those episodes of causation to the required standard of proof. That was concern have led to litigation, media sensationalism and based on his findings of flaws in the data analysis of the public anxiety, and they have significantly reduced uptake NCES. Professor Miller and his NCES team subsequently of the vaccination, which has reduced the level of herd published a follow-up study, in November 1993, which immunity on occasions and increased the incidence of addressed the judge’s criticisms of the original study. outbreak of pandemic disease among unvaccinated The conclusions of the follow-up study were essentially populations. Those episodes of public concern caused the same as those originally: on rare occasions, the anxiety and confusion to the public and resulted in vaccine can cause severe neurological injury. Then in considerable legal defence costs for pharmaceutical 2000 the Government decided that the initial awards corporations and considerable cost to the UK legal aid should be “topped up” to the real-terms equivalent of purse. Litigation resolved few of the disputes, because £100,000. hardly any cases reached trial. The public health programme It had been suggested that anyone deemed to be was damaged by falling levels of vaccine uptake, and vaccine damaged was carrying the SCN1A gene. That diseases in some cases were resurgent. has been disproved by testing victims: they have all In 2003, uptake of the MMR vaccine fell to only proved negative. 82%, largely as a result of Wakefield’s discredited autism In 2010, the Legal Services Commission agreed in theory. Even by the end of the MMR litigation, uptake principle to fund a further review of the prospects of had not fully recovered. In contrast, the United States success of the surviving DPT claimants. Further litigation achieves 98% vaccination uptake, possibly because all is therefore pending in that respect against the manufacturers claims have to be brought in the federal courts under and/or the Department of Health. The award now the vaccine programme rather than against a manufacturer. made for a successful application for vaccine damage That shows that a proper safety net can boost the payment is a single lump sum of £120,000. However, the numbers of people who take part in a herd immunisation majority of applicants—approximately 750 —have received programme. Other countries have avoided the only £78,000, because they received an initial payment problem by enabling disputes over vaccine injury to be of some £10,000. The payment is invariably made into a efficiently and proportionately resolved within a statutory personal injury special needs trust, so that it is excluded, compensation scheme, where individual cases can be by statutory provision, from any assessment for means- thoroughly investigated and adjudicated. The lack of a tested benefits. That is done to ensure that it is received fully comprehensive system for determining vaccine in addition to means-tested benefits such as incapacity injury applications in the UK has contributed to the benefit and disability living allowance, including components problems we face, so all stakeholders have an interest in for care and mobility. reform. According to information supplied by the vaccine The UK’s vaccine injury compensation scheme, as damage payments unit in 2011, a total of 931 awards established in the 1979 Act, contains a number of serious had been made under the 1979 Act, of which 570 were anomalies. Not all vaccines are covered. Vaccines for related to the DPT vaccine. There were 89 applications swine flu, smallpox, hepatitis A and B, and yellow fever made to the unit in 2010 and 71 in 2011. One award was are not covered. A separate scheme for smallpox vaccine made in 2010, and no awards were made in 2011. So far, compensation had to be set up by the Department of 3,983 applications have been rejected on medical grounds Health for workers to encourage front-line health workers and 814 have been rejected for non-medical reasons— to participate in vaccination. The vaccine programme is because the application was made either out of time or no longer just for children, as it was initially. Many out of the scope of the scheme. The operation of the people in their professional careers need to be vaccinated, system has settled down, and after a flurry of historic otherwise they cannot work. awards in the early years, very few awards are now being The influenza vaccine is not covered. The safety net made. The unit at one point consisted of two part-time has holes in it, and the vaccine victim support group and members of staff. An appeal against the decision to the all-party group submit that the gaps should be refuse an award is made to the social security lower-tier addressed. We believe that everyone who is resident in tribunal, which is part of Her Majesty’s Courts and the UK and is vaccinated should be able to have recourse Tribunals Service. to the compensation scheme in the event of a serious The fact that surprisingly few awards are being made adverse effect. The current scheme is aimed mainly at probably reflects the withdrawal of the DPT wholesale compensating children, although adults are also, on vaccine, the improvement in vaccine technology and the rare occasions, covered. The coverage is therefore patchy increased levels of safety and efficacy of vaccination. and not comprehensive. Given the very small numbers During the past few years, more vaccines, such as involved, the scheme could easily cover children and all HPV and meningitis C, have been added to the national adults. programme. It is likely that further vaccines—for example, Children who die before the age of two are not covered. varicella, HN1N, swine flu and hepatitis A and B—will That exception is difficult to justify, because losing a be added in coming years. Many new types of vaccines child at 18 months is as tragic and devastating as losing are likely to become available in future years, because a child six months later, at the age of two. That exception 447WH Vaccine Damage Payments Act24 MARCH 2015 Vaccine Damage Payments Act 448WH should be abolished. The 60% injury threshold is a real The current scheme does not contain any table of issue. An arbitrary distinction is made in the scheme for injury where causation may, in certain circumstances, injuries that are still significant, but that amount to be presumed. The absence of such a table leaves open to 59% or lower. The refusal of any compensation for doubt—and litigation—the question of causation, which someone with a 59% permanent disability cannot objectively makes the system more difficult to administer. The table be justified, bearing in mind the very small number of under the US scheme recognises, for example, that if awards that are made. To qualify for criminal injury someone has a severe allergic reaction within four hours compensation, the minimum threshold value of injury of receiving the tetanus vaccine, it is presumed that the is £1,000, and a similar level should apply in vaccine tetanus vaccine caused the injury if no other cause is injury cases. found. That goes back to the point raised by the right The current compensation award of £120,000, rather hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) than compensatory damages, creates anomalies. A child and my response—that the absolute probability is that with catastrophic injury resulting from clinical negligence the tetanus vaccine was the cause. The table in the US is in the administration of a vaccine—in other words, in periodically revised after independent expert review, breach of contra-indication—may receive £3 million. A such as the reports published by the Institute of Medicine child with a similar injury resulting from an adverse on the causality of injury by vaccines in 1991, 1994 and reaction to a vaccine would receive only one twenty-fifth 2011. of that compensation. That means that the burden of The UK system of vaccine injury compensation has caring for the disabled person falls largely on their now existed for 36 years. It was created as an interim families. The current vaccine injury award amounts to solution, but it has become a permanent one. There are the cost of care for a seriously disabled person for less many anomalies in coverage, and it does not fulfil the than one year. That cannot properly be described as safety net function that would promote confidence in compensation; it is only a token. the uptake of vaccines. Fortunately, cases of serious Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): I welcome permanent disablement and death caused by vaccines the attention that the hon. Gentleman has brought to are extremely rare. The cost of extending the scheme to this matter, as he has on previous occasions. The root of give comprehensive coverage and provide compensatory the problem is the distinction between compensation damages would be extremely low. If one award of for negligence, which rightly exists to ensure that a medium severity is made in an average year, for example, negligent organisation pays a penalty, and the provision the cost might be in the order of, say, £500,000. There of the help that people who have suffered vaccine would be some initial additional expenditure in paying damage ought to get, even if there is no possibility of a further top-up, in line with the level of compensatory proving negligence. The hon. Gentleman has identified damages, for the 931 cases that received a £100,000 that that is a no-fault system. We really need to have top-up payment in 2000. However, that would mean no such a system, which meets the genuine need of those further ongoing litigation in respect of historical cases. who have faced such consequences without their having The current award of £100,000 is difficult to justify in to prove negligence. cases involving catastrophic injury and a lifetime of care and loss of earnings. Mr Brown: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that Vaccines have become safer, but the number of vaccines intervention. The point is the balance of probability, as has grown and is likely to continue growing. The vast I indicated earlier in relation to the United States. I majority of adverse effects are mild and/or temporary, know that we do not always like to compare our health and only on extremely rare occasions are they serious and service with that in the United States, but theirs is permanent. However, it is likely that there will always be definitely based on the balance of probability. We need a small number of casualties, and a no-fault safety net to be much more realistic and consider what that could of compensatory damages will relieve the unfair burden mean for us in relation to vaccination and a vaccination of care and support from victims’ families and redistribute programme. The level of award cannot be justified. the cost across society. Crucially, it would avoid the Instead, the system should provide common-law damages. need for litigation, promote confidence in the national The numbers of awards made are such that that would vaccination programme and increase vaccine uptake, place little burden on the public purse. Similarly, the thereby reducing the incidence and cost of disease. scheme should also meet reasonable legal costs, so that clients do not have to enter damages-based contingency I hope the Minister will consider the points that she agreements to fund appeals. hears today. The timing of this debate might be wrong, There should be provision in the scheme for some but I have attempted to raise the profile of this issue over flexibility on the date by which an application has to be the past 12 months. In the dying days of this Parliament, made. The current scheme allows no extension of the perhaps the timing could not be better because, with time limit, even when the applicant does not have knowledge both the Minister and my hon. Friend the shadow Minister of the scheme or that they have a claim. Earlier today, in attendance, the next Government might want to the families made it abundantly clear to me that if a consider this issue more closely. The electorate deserve a child suddenly becomes vaccine-damaged, the trauma better deal than they have had previously. that runs through the household and the family is such There should have been significant publicity for this that they probably cannot think straight about what the debate, and the families tried to encourage such publicity. future holds. It is about recognising the extremely difficult They came close to getting support from the BBC, but and traumatic time that families are going through. the plug was apparently pulled at the last minute. The There should not be time bars that mean people get the families are becoming increasingly suspicious that people response, “I’m very sorry, but you’re out of time for any do not want to discuss this issue, but it is an issue from kind of claim.” That just is not the way we should be which we cannot run away. The families lead their lives operating in the 21st century. as best they can under extremely difficult circumstances. 449WH Vaccine Damage Payments Act24 MARCH 2015 Vaccine Damage Payments Act 450WH

[Mr Russell Brown] My constituents feel that all responsible Governments should have a vaccination programme, but they feel that There is no escape for them. On a daily basis, life can be Governments then have a moral responsibility to care troublesome to say the least, and I suspect that life can for those whose lives are damaged by vaccination. They often be very trying indeed. They have fought for decades, referred me to the paper, “Reform of the Vaccine Damage and they deserve some kind of light at the end of the Payments Act 1979”, that was presented to Ministers in tunnel, if that is possible. I gave an indication of this October 2011. They point to the recommendation in earlier, but is it reform of the legislation that we need or that paper that any vaccine recommended by Government is it now time, 36 years after the original legislation was should be covered by the Act. My hon. Friend detailed introduced, that we as parliamentarians sat down with a number of vaccinations that were left out of the Act, the families and the pharmaceutical companies and and they should not be. More modern vaccines, such as asked, “Is there a better way of doing this?”? I honestly the HPV vaccine that was referred to, should be included. believe that we require not reform but a whole new Importantly, to avoid expensive litigation, the scheme concept of where we are going. should cover proper compensatory levels. My right hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge, We can only imagine the pain endured by my Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke) and I attended a constituents’ having a daughter, the first child of four meeting a few years ago when our good former colleague children, suffering after vaccine damage. My constituents Ian Stewart was chair of the all-party group. We asked are now in their 60s and very worried about the future for a meeting with the pharmaceutical companies, which of their daughter. They are finding it more and more brought their legal teams with them. Those who know difficult to give her the time and care that she needs my right hon. Friend will recognise him as a placid and 24 hours a day. Their son tells me that seeing his parents tolerant individual, but he walked out of that meeting, struggle with a 42-year-old daughter, severely disabled which he had not previously done in his entire political as a result of vaccine damage, but not having received career. He was so disgusted with what the legal adequate compensation, is a total injustice. representatives of the pharmaceutical companies were My constituents tell me, and I imagine we would all saying that they tried his patience and he immediately agree, that my hon. Friend has fought tirelessly for their left the room. He and, I hope, everyone in this room cause, and I thank him for that work. It was only recognises the challenge that the families are going recently that I got to know of the case of my constituents through. There is a better way of doing it, and I hope and their daughter through the work of the all-party that today’s debate can be a starting point for us all. group, which they recommended I join, and I was happy to do so. I have spoken only briefly, but what I have said 3.8 pm on their behalf speaks for the reason why the victims of vaccine damage should get proper compensation and Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): It not rely on expensive litigation, which, as my hon. is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Caton. Friend has said, is not feasible. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries Four decades of care is a great deal to give—avoiding and Galloway (Mr Brown) on securing this debate and the care having to fall on the state—but the family on the moving way in which he opened it. members, the unpaid carers of victims of vaccine damage, I am here to speak briefly on behalf of constituents. should be supported. All carers should be properly Their daughter was born healthy in 1972, but they supported with compensatory payments, and I hope noticed a sudden change after she received the whooping that this debate today has raised the issue so that it will cough vaccination. Unfortunately, their daughter had go forward into a future Parliament and that real action suffered brain damage. They tell me that she was examined will be taken. by several doctors, including doctors at Alder Hey hospital in Liverpool. They have lived with the damage 3.13 pm done by the vaccine ever since. They have looked after Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the hon. their daughter for 42 years at considerable cost, both Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) for physically and mentally, and they are members of the setting the scene. He spoke passionately and told us why vaccine victim support group, which is fighting for we need to do better. He said, “Is there a better way to compensation for all those who have suffered severe do this?” and I wrote down, “I think there is.” This adverse reactions after being vaccinated under the debate will perhaps give us a chance to have an idea of Government vaccination programme. how we can do better. He and the hon. Member for My constituents tell me that, as they are now ageing, Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) illustrated they are desperately anxious to provide for the future of where the system falls down and how we can improve it. their daughter. It must certainly be true that parents I would like to do something along those lines as well. now in their 60s and 70s with children in their 40s and It is of utmost importance for us to reflect upon this 50s will feel the same way. My constituents have sacrificed issue once more, as the quality of innocent individuals’ everything over the past 42 years to ensure that their lives are at stake. We vaccinate to prevent illness, to protect daughter is loved and cared for by her family, rather the most vulnerable in our societies and to protect those than by the state. To date, the family have received only we care about, whether they are our family, children or what were purely initial and top-up vaccine damage constituents. It is very unfortunate when good intentions payments—certainly not compensatory payments—to do not result in their intended outcome, which is to cover four decades of care. As my hon. Friend said, protect and not harm. Unfortunately, harm is what can even the £120,000 top rate of payment under the current occur. The contributions so far have shown that harm scheme would really only pay for one year of care, and has taken place. We need to learn how best to deal with my constituents have not even received payments at that that and how Government could respond in a more level. generous manner. 451WH Vaccine Damage Payments Act24 MARCH 2015 Vaccine Damage Payments Act 452WH

Although such tragedies are thankfully rare, it is a 60% disabled, or above, has a profound impact on a reality for the few who are affected and we must take person’s life, reinforcing that we must change how we deal responsibility for dealing with the outcomes of vaccination with payments to those affected. It seems too absolute damage. We must take account of individuals who have to have a 60% cut-off when we come to a situation in become severely disabled when they may otherwise have which a victim may fall below this figure, yet be affected led a healthy life without the burdens of their condition, in their life. They can be greatly affected, but, because because of a vaccination that was believed to be medically of the eligibility criteria, not entitled to any assistance. safe. We must think of their well-being. We must also A range of degrees of disablement can affect an take account of those who, through their work, found it individual’s life and irreparably alter it. For that reason, necessary to have vaccinations, resulting in effects that reform needs to look at assisting all those who have they had not foreseen. been affected in different ways through vaccination It is a difficult thought to come to terms with. Affected damage, and as a result deviate from the standard fixed individuals could not have imagined that these vaccinations sum given on a sliding scale. I hope that the Minister’s would lead to their living with debilitating conditions. response will give an idea of how those suffering as a We must do our best to aid those families and individuals result of the vaccine can be given better financial assistance. to deal with the burden as best they can in the circumstances As has been pointed out on a number of occasions, and with the everyday realities that they have to face. including in the work of the all-party group, the provisions We must investigate why, out of 1,483 claims made between to deal with adult cases are poor. It would be appropriate 1 January 2000 and 31 December 2010 to the vaccine for the 1979 Act to be applied more comprehensively to damage payments unit, only 26 have resulted in an award. adult cases. The requirement that vaccination must occur Why is that? Something must be wrong with the system. before a victim’s 18th birthday, apart from in the exceptions Either it is too complex, or the delays are too long, or outlined in the Act, means that the scheme’s adult the questions that are asked are difficult to answer. The application is far from lucid. There are workers whose jobs system needs to be looked at. mean they must be vaccinated to deal with the dangers We need to reform the Vaccine Damage Payments of their workplace. Hepatitis B is one such vaccination, Act. It is too outdated to deal with the financial and but it is not included in the Act. Is it proposed that it practical realities of living with the adverse effects of a should be included? It is important to consider that question. vaccination, and too outdated to recognise that there is The workers most affected are doctors, nurses and a spectrum of difficulties that those affected face, not social workers, but members of other similar professions only those above the 60% threshold. That is also an that revolve around a duty of care are in a similar issue. The hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway situation. Those people, in aspiring to fulfil the requirements talked about the 60% threshold, which almost debars of their job, have availed themselves of vaccines and people. I always feel that we as parliamentarians are that has resulted in their being left without livelihood or here to help those who need help. We must do it in a career, and with a quality of life that is not as it was good way and make it simple and easy for them to find before. help. Today’s debate gives us a chance to try to chart a The question of access to life-saving or life-changing way forward that is easier for individuals to deal with. drugs has also been on my mind, and other hon. Members The Vaccine Damage Payments Act provides an have touched on it. There was an example in the debate opportunity to apply for a one-off £120,000 lump sum pack of a family who had to leave England for the to meet the burdens of coping with a disability. Whether States to qualify for drugs, which they got free there. I this is to assist the person who has become disabled as a presume that that was because they would also be part result of a vaccination, or the family who cares for the of a testing scheme. The drugs greatly improved the person, there are costs to be met. These are costs that child’s life. They moved to California to qualify for individuals and their families would not have foreseen, drugs that they could not get here, because they cost too caused by the adverse reaction to a vaccination that much. The Minister and I have previously talked about requires them to be met. To be eligible for such a drugs for cancer sufferers, and so on. I suppose more is scheme, the individual must be over two years old and possible with a large budget, but I think that something must apply within six years of vaccination, or up until must be done about improving the availability of drugs. their 21st birthday, whichever is the later. This means The legislation often makes adult payouts subject to that if the adverse reaction results in death, but the the industrial injuries schemes, with the result that the victim is less than two years old, nothing can be awarded compensation often cannot come close to what is required to the parents. That discrepancy must be addressed. to meet the financial challenges of the affected person. Furthermore, it leaves carers to pay independently for We must remember that it is not financial considerations the care that is needed until the claimant is eligible at that are at stake, but rather recompense for loss of a the age of two. The rules simply do not deal with the career and personal independence, and a reduction in emotional realities of such situations. quality of life. I am inclined to argue that those victims We cannot always mark a family’s problems solely on should be equally able to obtain the £120,000 payout physical issues. There is the emotional trauma that the through the Government’s vaccine damage payment family and their relations go through as well. What is scheme. There is a clear need for hepatitis B to be even more striking is that not all those affected by covered by the legislation. vaccination damage are recognised in the current legislation Although I have spoken of the £120,000 figure and as requiring financial assistance. The requirement that a argued for it to be extended to a wider range of cases, person has to be 60% disabled to be eligible for a single that is not to say that the sum is adequate; it is almost amount of £120,000 is a very hard and fast rule, and speculative in relation to the life expectancy of individuals cuts out others who are vulnerable and need compensation eligible to meet the requirements of the scheme. That is to deal with the difficulties that disability brings. To be wrong. We should be doing all we can to extend and 453WH Vaccine Damage Payments Act24 MARCH 2015 Vaccine Damage Payments Act 454WH

[Jim Shannon] 3.27 pm Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): make easier the lives of those affected, by giving higher I will not detain the House for long. I want briefly to levels of financial support. The fact is that the costs of raise the case of my constituent Stacey Jones, who living and caring for someone with a disability are high, suffered life-altering changes to her health following the and in the case of a child the sum offered will not span a administration of the HPV vaccine six or seven years lifetime’s care, so families can be left to struggle when ago. For Stacey it has meant seizures and mood swings— money becomes stretched and the pressure is on. Adult severe continuing problems that require treatment to cases also involve personal livelihood if the disability this day. I pay tribute to her brave mother, Julie Jones, becomes debilitating. Inadequate and unrealistic payouts who has fought to have her daughter’s condition recognised. or failure to be compensated at all can make financial She brought it to my attention and that of Ministers and considerations an added concern in an already stressful the local medical profession, and she has tried to put the and emotive situation. plight of young women such as Stacey on the agenda. Is there a better way? I suggest there is, and I urge the I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Minister to review the matter. Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) for his work in obtaining the debate, and more broadly on the issue. 3.23 pm Although the subject is compensation, I want to put a broader question to the Minister. Does she agree that it Richard Benyon (Newbury) (Con): I apologise for not cannot be right for young women and their families, being here for the start of the debate; I meant no such as Stacey and her mother, to be regarded simply as disrespect to the hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway collateral damage for the vaccine programme? That is (Mr Brown), who has been a tireless campaigner on the how the families feel. In a sense, that is a question for issue. I will take only a brief amount of the House’s my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree time, partly because I must again be rude and leave the (Luciana Berger) as well as for the Minister, because debate before the end—it is that stage of the parliamentary there is an election coming and I am not sure whether process. the Minister or my hon. Friend will occupy the Government I want to express my gratitude and that of my constituent. Front Bench in a couple of months. I hope that they The hon. Gentleman spent two hours going in great both agree that it cannot be right for young women such detail through the difficulties suffered by her daughter, as Stacey to be regarded as collateral damage of a a 24-year-old girl who has suffered from the HPV vaccine programme. If so, how do we change the view vaccine Cervarix. The anti-NMDA receptor antibody of such families, who feel that the Department of Health effect on her is massive. My constituent’s daughter will simply brushes aside their concerns, does not acknowledge require financial support for life—disability benefits them and does not take them seriously? and a range of other support to get her through her The health problems that those young women are difficulties. Those difficulties result from a reaction to a suffering from are real, but they feel that they are being vaccine that has been an enormous success in this ignored. I ask the Minister and my hon. Friend the Member country in protecting young women from a viral condition, for Liverpool, Wavertree, to address in their summing-up but which, in certain circumstances, has the effect I have speeches the question of not just compensation, but the mentioned. There is more evidence not just in this attitude shown to such families, who feel that they are country but abroad, and there is emerging research. being ignored, so that their plight is taken more seriously I hope that the Minister will recognise the circumstances, whether or not they are entitled to compensation under and recognise also that more needs to be done, including the law. looking at research from abroad. We should understand the difficulties of the individual concerned, who must 3.30 pm go to endless meetings that require explanation of a Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): complex medical condition not understood by people in It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, the benefits world—and why should it be? It requires Mr Caton. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member someone with a detailed understanding of a narrow for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) for securing field of clinical work to understand it. It is a question of this important debate and for his work as chair of the constantly having to explain it again to someone new, all-party group for vaccine damaged people. His tireless and recognising that the situation will last a lifetime. campaigning on behalf of his constituents, and others Perhaps a miracle cure or a way to reverse the condition who have been affected by vaccine damage, is commendable. will be found, but we cannot say. At the moment we I also thank all hon. Members and right hon. and need the Government to recognise—through the benefits hon. Friends for their contributions throughout the delivery networks, as well as in terms of the Minister’s debate, which are testament to the strong feelings felt responsibilities—that there are people who acted for the about this issue on both sides of the House. My hon. right reasons and who need support. They need support Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara in their battle to get their condition recognised and Keeley) talked about the challenges experienced by her understood. There is a growing experience across developed constituents. The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim economies, where the right measures are taken to protect Shannon) made a large contribution and I was specifically young people from disease, of people being affected in interested in hearing what he said about the emotional the wrong way in certain circumstances. I hope that in trauma experienced by families. The hon. Member future the system will permit greater protection for for Newbury (Richard Benyon) and my right hon. people such as my constituents. I applaud the hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South East Member for Dumfries and Galloway for calling the (Mr McFadden) both talked about their constituents’ debate. experiences of the HPV vaccine. 455WH Vaccine Damage Payments Act24 MARCH 2015 Vaccine Damage Payments Act 456WH

Vaccinations are crucial to our NHS as a way of with us whether any flexibility is built into the system to preventing disease and the spread of infection. The allow a person assessed as being very close to the 60% research and discoveries made every day by the scientific qualification point—perhaps they are 59% permanently community lead us closer to disease prevention that disabled—to receive support under the scheme? Surely could not have been imagined when the Vaccine Damage a person suffering such a level of disability has a substantial Payments Act 1979 was passed. The improvements in need, which the scheme is intended to accommodate. It vaccine uptake in recent years have resulted in a greater seems unjust that, by just missing out on the threshold, proportion of children being vaccinated now than ever they would receive no payment at all under the scheme, before. so it is left to the family to shoulder that burden. As my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries and Has the Minister considered the case for reforming Galloway made clear, today’s debate does not intend to the minimum level of disability required for a person to question the importance of the national vaccination qualify? We have heard today that, even when a person programme to the health of our population; instead, it does qualify as having a serious disability, the Government intends to bring to the House’s attention those occasions have fought against such decisions. Take the case of on which vaccinations have gone wrong, with deeply people who suffer from narcolepsy as a result of the distressing and life-changing consequences, and the swine flu vaccine, which we have heard about today. challenges surrounding the support system in place for Despite a causal link with the vaccine having been those people who are sadly affected. established and a tribunal having concluded that that I recently attended a meeting of the all-party group should be considered a “serious disability,”the Department in Parliament and at another meeting I met a group of for Work and Pensions appealed against the decision. parents and their daughters who had been affected by Will the Minister share with us why the DWP would go the HPV vaccination. The stories I heard in both meetings against such a decision? Will she clarify how her highlighted that, in the event of such tragedies, it is vital Government reach a decision on whether to appeal that people who suffer from vaccine injury can expect to against a tribunal decision? receive support to ease the burden on them and their As we have heard in the debate, there are many other families. They certainly should not have to battle to get anomalies in the coverage provided by the Act. I note what they are entitled to. the recent additions this year of the rotavirus and At those meetings, the deep sense of injustice felt by influenza vaccinations to the list of specified diseases to many of the families who live every day with the burden which the Act applies. Despite that, it does not provide of disability caused by vaccine damage was clear. In a comprehensive safety net. Will the Minister explain response to my right hon. Friend the Member for the review process that takes place before a vaccine is Wolverhampton South East, I should say that I hope included on that list? Why are some vaccines, such as that the parents and people affected believe that I was at pandemic influenza and hepatitis A and B vaccines, that meeting to listen to them. I very much appreciate excluded? The current scheme focuses largely on the that they feel that they are not being listened to, on top childhood immunisation programme, but it covers people of the challenges that they have faced over many years. over the age of 18 for certain diseases. We have heard As we heard, the vaccine damage payments scheme the word “patchy” used today, which is a fair assessment. was established under the Vaccine Damage Payments I was concerned to learn that 814 applications had Act in 1979 to provide tax-free lump sum payments to been rejected on non-medical grounds because they people severely disabled as a result of vaccination against were made either out of time or outside the scheme’s specific diseases. Despite the gradual expansion of support scope. The scheme allows for no extension to the time under numerous Governments and some important limit, even when the applicant did not have knowledge reforms made in 2000 following a review of the scheme, of the scheme or did not know that they might qualify the system has many challenges today. We have heard for a claim. To refuse someone the support they need on many compelling reasons for reform. the grounds that they have not made the deadline seems Since the scheme was first introduced, the number of inflexible. Does the Minister have plans to build more payments made has fallen dramatically. As my hon. flexibility into the rules about the time frames in which Friend the Member for Dumfries and Galloway said, applications need to be made? since 2010-11 no vaccine damage payments have been There are other anomalies. In the event that a child made at all. That may be down to vaccines and vaccine under two dies from an adverse reaction to a vaccine, safety, but it is troubling that, despite hundreds of their family are not eligible to receive any payment applications from people whose disability was sufficient under the scheme. The logic for that is unclear. Why for them to be considered to have a strong enough case, should the family of a child who dies after their second not one payment has been made. I hope that the Minister birthday be more deserving of compensation than one will explain why such a gulf exists between applications whose child died a day before? I would welcome clarification for support and actual payments made. I hope she will from the Minister on whether she plans to review that. share her view on why the number of payments has In a written answer to me at the end of last year, the gone down to zero in recent years. Minister said that the Government had I understand that there is a robust qualification process “no plans to make changes” and that, to qualify for compensation, a person must be assessed to be 60% permanently disabled for life. In to the 1979 Act. Has she reconsidered that position considering cases, it is right that medical advisers have since then? If not, does she have any plans to review regard to whether informed medical opinion suggests that decision? that there may be a causal link between the claimed The debate has raised issues that need to be tackled if adverse event and vaccination. I appreciate that the line we are to ensure that we have a comprehensive support must be drawn somewhere, but will the Minister share system for vaccine damaged people and to promote 457WH Vaccine Damage Payments Act24 MARCH 2015 Vaccine Damage Payments Act 458WH

[Luciana Berger] Of course, that is one of the main reasons why the vaccine damage payment scheme was introduced. As confidence in the uptake of vaccines. The support scheme others have said, it was intended to help ease the present put in place by the 1979 Act was of its time and intended and future burdens of those individuals who are severely to be an interim solution. However, it has become— disabled as a result of vaccine damage. albeit with some changes over the years—a permanent I am sure it has been said before, but it is worth one. clarifying for the House that the VDPS payment is not People need to be assured that, in the unlikely event compensation and it does not prejudice the right of the that something goes wrong, they will be looked after. disabled person to pursue a claim against the manufacturer My hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries and Galloway of the vaccine, although I of course acknowledge the made a powerful case for reform, which I hope the obstacles that many people face in doing that. The hon. Minister will take away and give her full consideration. Member for Dumfries and Galloway, who led the debate, I look forward to her response. spelled them out. However, such payments would of course be taken into account if compensation was awarded. The scheme, introduced in 1979, provides a tax-free, 3.39 pm lump sum payment—as others have said, it is now up to £120,000—for those who are severely disabled as a The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health result of a vaccination against those diseases listed in (Jane Ellison): I congratulate all hon. Members who the 1979 Act and those that have been specified since have taken part in this debate. In particular, I congratulate 1979 by statutory instrument. It acknowledges that the hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) people who are severely disabled early in life have less on securing the time to discuss an issue that is never opportunity to earn and save, and the degree of disablement easy to discuss. Other Members have alluded to the fact is assessed on the same basis as for the industrial that when I, as a Health Minister, have looked at injuries disablement benefit scheme. schemes about population-level health, sometimes there are discussions about the impact on individuals within The disability threshold is set at 60%. I understand, that population and those discussions are very difficult of course, that there are those who argue that the level to have. of disability should be assessed on a sliding scale. However, such a sliding scale of disability and payments I also congratulate the hon. Gentleman on the tone in would run counter to the scheme’s principle of providing which he has conducted this debate and indeed on the a straightforward single payment for those who the way that he has represented families and individuals Secretary of State for Health is satisfied are severely over some years because, as I say, sometimes these are disabled as a result of vaccination. difficult issues to discuss. He has chaired the all-party group in a constructive way and I am sure that that has To qualify for the scheme, a person must have become been appreciated by successive Ministers. severely disabled as a result of vaccination. As I think the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Liverpool, Also, the hon. Gentleman has said it before in this Wavertree (Luciana Berger), acknowledged, that causative House, but I was very pleased that today he reiterated link is needed for the scheme to be workable, but it does his support and that of the all-party group for a public make for some difficult cases and some difficult vaccination programme. We are lucky to have a conversations. I understand that, but that causative link comprehensive and world-class national immunisation helps us to target public funds properly for people who programme. I note that the vast majority of people who suffer disablement as a consequence of vaccination. have concerns about the issue that we are discussing today do not disagree with the need for vaccination As with all civil matters, the standard of proof for programmes of that nature. causation is “on the balance of probabilities”. So, based on the available evidence, does the medical adviser Such programmes are a vital way of protecting consider that vaccination caused the disability? individuals and the community as a whole from serious Notwithstanding the suggestions made to change, improve diseases. Vaccination is recognised by the World Health or even replace the scheme, there would always need to Organisation as the most effective public health intervention be an assessment of causation and it would always be after the provision of clean drinking water. It has led to the case that for some people who had suffered a the eradication or major reductions in infectious diseases disability, it would be viewed that the cause was not that used to be a serious threat to public health. British vaccination. There would always be instances that did parents no longer see their children being crippled by not meet that criterion. polio, because that disease has been eliminated from the The scheme does not require the medical adviser to UK and, thankfully, from most of the world. Before be certain or sure but only to consider that it is more measles vaccines were introduced, there were as many likely than not that vaccination caused disability. These as 750,000 cases of measles in England and Wales in independent medical advisers are well placed and epidemic years, and about one in every 1,000 children experienced enough to make that judgment, which is infected would die. not made by politicians but by people who are carefully Vaccinations are now safer than they have ever been, trained. For example, doctors who assess claims must notwithstanding—obviously—the concerns that have be approved to carry out assessments by the chief been expressed during this debate. However, I recognise medical adviser to the Department for Work and Pensions, that on the very rare occasions when vaccinations can and that approval is only granted when they have cause severe disability, that places both the person demonstrated full competence. Also, those doctors are themselves and their families under enormous strain. subject to strict 100% quality audits until approval is Right hon. and hon. Members have spoken about that achieved. I say that to make the point that there is a most movingly during the afternoon. considerable degree of both medical expertise and 459WH Vaccine Damage Payments Act24 MARCH 2015 Vaccine Damage Payments Act 460WH independence involved in those assessments. I can also on Human Medicines keep the safety of all vaccines under confirm that mental health, which I think was mentioned close and continual review. In response to the concerns by the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), is that were raised by Members during the time that I have taken into account in those assessments of individuals. been the Minister with responsibility for public health, I The payment scheme is not intended to address all have sought the advice of the MHRA, and had discussions the financial implications of disablement for those affected with it, to raise some of the issues that Members have by vaccines, which we have heard about this afternoon, put to me, and to understand in some detail that process and, as I have said, there is nothing to prevent people of continual review. I was satisfied that it is very robust from bringing claims, although I understand that that and based on a continual review of the available evidence, process is difficult, as has been outlined. both in this country and internationally. The scheme is only one part of the wide range of The UK’s childhood immunisation schedule has been support and help available to severely disabled people in recommended by experts after consideration of a wide the UK. For example, as many hon. Members will be range of evidence, which, as I have said, includes evidence aware, disability living allowance provides an important about safety reactions. That evidence is both national non-contributory, non-means-tested and tax-free cash and international. The vaccines have undergone rigorous contribution towards the disability-related extra costs testing with large numbers of people before they are of severely disabled children. licensed, and their safety is continuously monitored to discover and assess any rare side effects. Vaccines are The VDPS covers immunisation provided in the routine among the safest medicines available and as such, and childhood vaccination programme against specified diseases. as I have said before, side effects are rare. I am concerned It also temporarily covered vaccination against pandemic that the hon. Gentleman thinks that reactions are not swine flu during the swine flu pandemic in 2009 and being captured properly. Again, I asked the MHRA 2010. Hon. Members have raised applications to the about that. Obviously, the hon. Gentleman is well aware scheme from individuals who developed narcolepsy and of the yellow card scheme, but perhaps he wants to give cataplexy following immunisation that used the swine me more detail after the debate about reactions not flu pandemic vaccine, pandemrix. I will take this being captured. opportunity to emphasise that we appreciate how distressing narcolepsy and cataplexy are, and we understand the Mr Brown: On that point, it became abundantly clear, concerns of those who have been affected, and the concerns when I met the two ladies whom I mentioned in respect of their families. The DWP administers the VDPS and of their daughters and the HPV vaccine, that one of takes professional medical advice on the degree of disability those mothers faced a major challenge in pursuing the involved, and obviously the Department of Health is local health authority to get the card recording exactly responsible for policy in this area. what had happened. There appeared to be some reluctance, Swine flu vaccines were developed specifically for use although I am not sure what was underpinning all that. in a flu pandemic, when the number of lives that could Some people have faced a challenge getting it properly be lost and the number of people who could suffer serious recorded. illness would have been enormous. In the circumstances, it was considered by Ministers at the time that it was Jane Ellison: I am sure it would help the MHRA if suitable to extend the VDPS temporarily, but in the the hon. Gentleman sent it details of that example. circumstances that currently prevail it is inappropriate However, it sounds a little bit more as if there was a for me to comment on individual cases; I hope the problem with a local clinician recording adverse reaction House understands that. than with the scheme itself. I note what he says. The Government are advised on all immunisation The UK’s programme has been a considerable success. matters by the Joint Committee on Vaccination and I know that, in the context of such a debate, it seems Immunisation, which is a statutory and independent hard to assert that, but I think that all hon. Members body. The JCVI is also a departmental expert committee, would acknowledge that generally speaking this country constituted for the purpose of advising the Secretary of is seen as having a successful immunisation programme. State for Health, and it keeps all immunisation matters Regarding MMR, which has been mentioned, coverage under review, providing advice and recommendations in England for children reaching their second birthday to Ministers on all current and potential programmes, rose to 92.7% in 2013-14, compared with 92.3% in 2012-13. and advising the UK health Departments on national That is the sixth consecutive year that a rise in MMR immunisation policy, including the safety and efficacy coverage has been reported, and coverage is at its highest of a programme. level since the vaccine was first introduced in 1988. The Department of Health ensures that all its information I note the hon. Gentleman’s concern that the current on vaccination is clear that vaccines may have side level of award may limit the take-up of vaccines, but I effects, which thankfully are usually minor. However, am hesitant to accept that as evidence, given the improved the fact that a vaccine has been licensed shows that the take-up of the MMR vaccine during a period when the benefits have been assessed as outweighing any known VDPS has not changed. I am hesitant to accept what possible side effects. Nevertheless, as with any medicine he says, but if there is peer-reviewed evidence of the or health care product, unfortunately a vaccine may cause link between the level of the scheme and the take-up of side effects in some people. We have heard the stories of particular vaccines, I suggest he submits that to the some of those who have been affected in that way. Department. Vaccine safety is of paramount importance and, as Hon. Members will know that, since 1 May 2014, the with all medicines and health care products, the Medicines VDPS has been the joint responsibility of the Department and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency and the for Work and Pensions and the Department of Health. Government’s independent expert advisory Commission As set out in the 1979 Act, the Department of Health is 461WH Vaccine Damage Payments Act24 MARCH 2015 Vaccine Damage Payments Act 462WH

[Jane Ellison] I think, drawn the same conclusion, which is that the balance is about right. That is not to say that the hon. responsible for policy, for example, changes to the list of Gentleman’s concerns are not listened to: far from it. I infectious diseases covered by the Act in line with have listened to his concerns and will take those away changes to the immunisation programme. The shadow and reflect on them. Minister mentioned diseases added to the scheme. As There are no current plans to make any changes to has been said, the Department for Work and Pensions the time limits. Again, the hon. Gentleman made his remains responsible for assessing the claims. case about that, as did other hon. Members. Hon. Members have put on the record the number of claims and awards made. I note concerns about awards Barbara Keeley: I hear what the Minister is saying, made in recent years, but again it is perhaps not entirely but this may be the last chance to comment. I talked right to assume that that is, in some sense, because the about a case where the payments are not in any way criteria have been changed, or anything like that. I have compensatory. Previous Governments lifted the level of outlined the independent expertise of the medical assessors, payment substantially up to £120,000. Can she not give and said that vaccines have got safer. Again, the causative any hope to parents in their 60s who are struggling with link needs to be proved. However, I note the hon. care? Care is expensive, and increasingly so under her Gentleman’s concern, and that of other hon. Members, Government. What can she say to give some hope to about the lack of recent awards. parents in that situation, of whom, as we have heard, The vaccine damage payment scheme has always there are very many, including my constituents? covered diseases vaccinated against as part of the childhood immunisation programme. That approach underlines Jane Ellison: The challenge is that a number of aspects successive Governments’ intention that the scheme should of the scheme, which has existed under successive help children who are rarely, but regretfully, severely Governments, make some individual cases particularly disabled. As I said, changes to and recommendations hard. The hon. Lady has touched on some reasons for about that programme are made by the JCVI. that in her contribution. In 2002, the scheme was reviewed and changes were The Government have no plans to change how the made. The threshold of disability was reduced from scheme is run, as one might expect in the last week 80% to 60% and, as we have said, the payment increased before the House rises before the general election, and to £120,000. there are no plans to review it, as I have said. However, we are about to have a new Parliament. I am sure that the hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway and other Mr Brown: I appreciate what the Minister is saying. hon. Members may wish to return to this subject. The Will she give hon. Members in the Chamber her personal work of the all-party group will continue. The hon. thoughts on the balance of probability? Gentleman has indicated that he wants to raise the reform of the Act in the new Parliament. The shadow Jane Ellison: My sense is that the scheme, which aims Minister has made some points, but no commitments. to provide proportionate help, has got the balance The hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway may about right, but I have heard the concerns expressed therefore wish to use the next few weeks lobbying within today. It is worth noting that successive Governments his own party, if he cannot speak in Parliament, making have considered this matter and chosen not to alter the his case forcefully to his colleague. scheme. That consideration would have involved looking I note the concerns expressed today. I am not in a at it in some detail. Equally, I note gently that the position to say that the scheme will be reviewed. As is shadow Minister, analysed the situation and asked many the way of these things, all these matters will now be for questions, but made no commitments, although she a new Government to consider. However, the hon. aspires to sit in my place in just a few weeks. Member for Dumfries and Galloway put his points The House will note that many successive Governments thoughtfully, as ever, and they have been thoughtfully of different parties have looked at the scheme and have, taken on board and will be considered. 463WH 24 MARCH 2015 The Shrewsbury 24 464WH

The Shrewsbury 24 that they did not have the evidence to bring conspiracy charges against the pickets, although those were ultimately levied against them in court. 3.58 pm Fifthly, we would like records of communications Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): It is a pleasure between any combination of the following: the Home to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Caton. Secretary and the Home Office, the Attorney-General, I do not intend to rehearse the issues raised during a the Director of Public Prosecutions, Treasury counsel, debate on 23 January 2014, because I think that all hon. the chief constables of West Mercia and Gwynedd and Members in this Chamber attended it. However, I shall Sir Maurice Drake, QC, who was acting for the prosecution say that the will of Parliament is being defied by this in 1972-73. Finally, we would like all documents relating Government. The will of Parliament on 23 January to the decision of the Lord Chancellor to make the 2014, by 120 votes to three, was that documents should practice direction ending the right of the defence to be released so that people who were locked up in 1973 know the occupation of jurors, something that was could have the chance to clear their name. overturned just before the case. We would also like a We were advised and supported by the Minister, who copy of said direction. That document, which should be said he would try to help us take this matter forward. in the public domain, is still unobtainable through the He met us in the Lobby after the debate, and he then usual sources. That is a short list of some of the things met us—me, along with Ricky Tomlinson, who was one that have been hidden from public view by this Government of those locked up in 1973, and Eileen Turnbull, who and by previous Governments. works for the campaign—in July last year. We told him What we are talking about in this debate is justice, then that there were far more documents than he related integrity and honour, but we are also talking about real in his response to the debate—four redacted letters, people’s lives—the 24 men who were convicted in 1973: currently being withheld. We said there were a lot more John Carpenter, John McKinsie Jones, John Elfyn Llywarch, than that; and, to give credit where it is due, the Minister Kenneth Desmond Francis O’Shea, Eric Tomlinson, went away and released an Excel spreadsheet of 2,282 Dennis Michael Warren, William Michael Pierce, John file references being held by the Government. Malcolm Clee, John Gary Davies, Derrick Hughes, Out of those 2,000-plus, the campaign team, led by Samuel Roy Warburton, Thomas Brian Williams, Alfred Eileen Turnbull, selected 51 that she believed could have James, Dennis Morris, George Arthur Murray, Patrick a direct connection to the trials. When she inquired Kevin Butcher, William Charles Leslie Hooson, Terence whether those files could be released from the National Renshaw, Graham Roberts, John Kenneth Seaburg, Peter Archives, she was told that she would have to apply to Alfred Sear, Bryn Thomas, Edward Leonard Williams each respective Department where the files were being and Thomas Bernard Williams. held. She has applied for six files from two Departments Those 24 men have never had their names cleared. by way of freedom of information requests. She has Sadly, four of them—John Carpenter, Des Warren, been told in no uncertain terms that “None of the above” Alfred James and John Kenneth Seaburg—will never will be available for public scrutiny. They are being know if their names will be cleared, because they are withheld under section 23 of the Freedom of Information now dead. Their families are still living with the burden Act 2000. On asking for a review of those decisions in that their husbands, fathers and brothers have gone to February this year, she was told on 20 and 24 February their graves as convicted criminals. The youngest of the that the response to the application for a review was not men still surviving is almost 70 and the oldest is 90. It is to release the documents. Therefore, with great respect 42 years since they were convicted and this Government to the Minister, the words he gave us had no bearing. are holding on to records, transcripts and paperwork We have moved nowhere. that could clear their names. It simply is not right in this Those of us who are involved in this issue are clear day and age. We are constantly told by our Prime Minister that we would like to see a number of files. I will list just that we should let the sunshine in and have transparency. six, but that is out of a great big bunch that we could go That is all we have asked for in these debates, and it is into. First, we would like access to the relevant un-redacted the one thing we have never had. Cabinet documents and internal police, intelligence and With your latitude, Mr Caton, I want to quote from Security Service records for the period from the start of the transcript of the court case. I will quote from the the national strike in May 1972 to the subsequent summing up of the case, first from Ricky Tomlinson convictions in March 1974, together with any such files and then from Des Warren. Everyone knows who Ricky relating to the Shrewsbury pickets beyond those dates. Tomlinson is—he is a national treasure and an icon—but Secondly, we would like access to documents that deal he still clearly regards himself first and foremost as a with communications between Departments and the City and Guilds plasterer who was doing a job trying to National Federation of Building Trades Employers, protect himself and the men he worked with from particularly those involving Sir Robert McAlpine. working in some of the worst and most arduous conditions Thirdly, we would like access to any documents that in the world. While he was waiting to be sentenced, this deal with the decision to set up a police investigation is what he said to the judge—the judge did not want to squad in north Wales led by the chief constable of hear it, and I am not surprised. These are just some Gwynedd and the chief constable of West Mercia after snippets. He said: the strike in 1972 to collect statements that led to the “It was said by Goebbels in the last war that if you repeat a lie prosecution of the 24 Shrewsbury pickets. Fourthly, we often enough it eventually becomes accepted as the truth. This I have observed being put into practice here in this court…I can ask for a copy of the joint report of the chief constable sympathise with members of the jury because they have been used of Gwynedd and the chief constable of West Mercia in in this charade in just the same way as myself and my colleagues. 1972-73, which included a statement that, in their view, We must remember that British justice must not only be done but any violence by pickets was sporadic and episodic and must be seen to be done…No sentence passed on me by this court, 465WH The Shrewsbury 2424 MARCH 2015 The Shrewsbury 24 466WH

[Mr David Anderson] nursed him in the 1980s and said it was the hardest she had ever done. This man was effectively killed by the however lenient or however severe, can hurt me more that I have state, even if it took 30 years for him to die. already been hurt. I have been almost continuously unemployed So this is a debate about justice and honour, but it is since my arrest and, of course, this punishes my wife and two infant sons to a far greater extent that it does me. During the also about the Minister; because the Minister, if he does length and course of this trial my family have been abused by the not help us today, will again defy the will of Parliament. very people whose duty it is to assist them…The sentence passed We all recognise his long track record inside and out of on me by this court will not matter. My innocence has been the House of being honest and being honourable—of proved time and again by the building workers of Wrexham being a seeker after truth. What we saw in the mid-1970s whom I represent, and also by the building workers from all over was a group of men who were set up and who were the land who have sent particular messages of support to myself locked up. Ever since then there has been a cover up, and my family and my colleagues…I know my children when they which has lasted 42 years. are old enough, will understand that the struggle we took part in was for their benefit and for the benefit and interest of building Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): I congratulate my hon. workers and their families.” Friend on securing this very timely debate. Does he That is true; sadly, they know that their father is still agree that the only crime that these men committed was effectively a convicted criminal. He then went on to say to fight for better health and safety on the building these words, which are why we are here today: sites? During that time, 571 people had been killed in a “I look forward to the day when the real culprits of these crimes, three-year period and 221,000 people had been injured the McAlpines, the Wimpey’s, the Laings and the Bovis’s, and all on construction sites. That, coupled with £30 for 30 hours, their political bodies, are in the dock facing charges of conspiracy was what these people were fighting for. It was a miscarriage to intimidate workers from doing what is their lawful right, of justice of the highest order. picketing.” He also spoke about the fact that those companies were Mr Anderson: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. running building sites in this country where one builder Like me, he worked in the mining industry, which saw a day was dying. The companies were abusing health some of the most horrific accident and death statistics and safety legislation, which was there to protect the going back centuries. We fought against that and turned men and boys working on the sites. it around in the mining industry. The people in the building industry were trying to do exactly what we did. I now move on to the speech made by Des Warren. They wanted to bring to the building sites the sort of He was the first to admit that he was a political activist. legislation and protection that we had achieved, sometimes He was one of the “reds under the bed” that people through industrial action, but also through coming into were terrified of in the 1970s. He never hid away from this place and getting legislation passed to protect people that, but he was also a proud working man. This is what at work. That is what these men were doing. They also he had to say: wanted a decent living wage, because £30 was not a lot “I have spent a week in jail, and people in there and various of money in 1972. They wanted a reasonable pay rise, other people, not including my counsel, have told me that it was but they were also defending people’s lives and limbs. always a mistake to make a speech from the dock, because whatever you are going to get will be doubled. I tried to explain to Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): May I ask the them that the system that operates is purely for the upper class, Minister a question through my hon. Friend? Why is it and I don’t expect any leniency or mercy from it, so I’ll continue that the Government are reducing the 30-year rule to anyway. 20 years, yet in correspondence on this matter with me It has been said in this court that this trial had nothing do with the Ministry of Justice has increased the information politics. Among ten million trade unionists in this country I release date from 30 years to 40 years? My five constituents, doubt if you would find one who would agree with that statement. who are among the names mentioned by my hon. It is a fact of life that Acts of Parliament have been passed and picketing and strikes are looked upon as a political act. It therefore Friend, cannot get justice until 2022, when many of follows that every action taken in furtherance of an industrial them will be very old indeed. dispute also becomes a political act…On the other hand, employers, by their contempt of laws governing safety requirements, are Mr Anderson: My right hon. Friend asks a very valid guilty of causing the deaths of a great many workers, and yet they question, and I hope that we get an answer from the are not dealt with before the courts. Mr. Bumble said: ‘The law is Minister. It beggars belief. We know the context in an ass.’ If he were here now he might draw the conclusion that the which this case took place. We had industrial strife in a law is, quite clearly, an instrument of the state, to be used in the number of industries and obviously a lot was happening interests of a tiny minority against the majority. It is biased; it is in Northern Ireland. We also know the context of class law, and nowhere has that been demonstrated more than in police behaviour in the 1970s, because it is now coming the prosecution case in this trial…Was there a conspiracy? Ten members of the jury have said there was. There was a conspiracy, out through things such as the Saville and Hillsborough but not by the pickets…The conspiracy was between the Home inquiries, issues relating to the miners’ strike at Orgreave Secretary, the employers and the police. It was not done with a and the behaviour of the security services in relation to nod and a wink. It was conceived after pressure from Tory the Birmingham and Guildford bombings, for example. Members of Parliament who demanded changes in picketing We are talking about 24 men among a larger group who laws…The working class movement cannot allow this verdict to went to a picket line. On the day, not one of them was go unchallenged. It is yet one more step along the road to fascism, charged, warned or arrested. If they done something and I would remind you that the greatest heroes in Nazi Germany that warranted arrest, they would have been arrested were those who challenged the law, when it was used as a political weapon by a fanatical gang for a minority of greedy, evil men.” there and then—not five months later, not after a fishing expedition, but on the day. This man died as a direct result of the way he was treated in prison. He was treated disgracefully. He was Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I beaten up and given liquid medication that caused him congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. to develop Parkinson’s. He suffered desperately. My sister He has assiduously pursued this issue since he came 467WH The Shrewsbury 2424 MARCH 2015 The Shrewsbury 24 468WH into Parliament. One way in which the trade unions conspiracy to intimidate. Several picketers, whom the were undermined in the ’60s and ’70s, certainly in the hon. Gentleman named, were given prison sentences. building industry, was through something called lump That was controversial, partly because of the alleged labour, which kept wages down. Sometimes these things role of the security services, and the Justice for Shrewsbury are forgotten in this day and age, but they happened Pickets campaign was established with the intention of then. Sometimes people were expected to work in appalling having the convictions overturned. conditions, and if someone got blacklisted, it was like a In recent years, there has been a renewed push for the life sentence: they never got another job. release of all Government-retained papers on the issue. I have seen Ricky Tomlinson here. He attended the Mr Anderson: I thank my hon. Friend for reminding previous debate and has taken a direct interest, having us of that, because what the building employers were launched an e-petition for the release of the documents doing was not only bad in terms of people’s working that garnered 33,000 signatures. Another petition was conditions; they were actually breaking the law. They submitted in December 2013 with about 70,000 signatures. were encouraging people not to be paid properly. In Together, they probably crossed the 100,000 signatures effect, those employers were not paying income tax or trigger line for e-petitions. That led to the Backbench national insurance contributions, so they were stealing Business Committee granting the debate on the Floor from the public purse, while at the same time coercing of the House on 23 January last year. The hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary to pressure the police into bringing is right that an overwhelming majority of the Members forward a case against 24 innocent men, whom the who voted in that debate called for the papers to be judiciary would then prosecute as a warning to others. published, and that included not only Opposition Members That is exactly what this is all about, and I am convinced but Government Members. that the papers show that. My right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) asked why the information Since then, some of the Shrewsbury 24 have applied release date has been extended to 40 years; I am not sure to the Criminal Cases Review Commission—I discussed that we will get the answers even in 2022, if we are still that with the hon. Gentleman when we met. Ministers around. The sad reality is that some of these men will understand that, as part of its ongoing consideration of not be around. That is a disgrace. the case, the CCRC has exercised its powers under the I look to the Minister as someone who, I believe, is an Criminal Appeal Act 1995 to access papers relevant to honourable man. I know that he does not have much the case. It has not come to a public position on that, time left over the next few days, but he may be in the but its staff have seen the papers and they have regarded same post in eight weeks’ time. Obviously my colleagues and taken account of them in as much as they wish to and I hope that it will be someone from our party do so. sitting in his place, because we have pledged to release The majority of the papers relating to the Shrewsbury the papers, and we have said that we will do it no matter 24 were released under the Public Records Act 1958 to what the Security Service or the spooks tell us. We will the National Archives. Under sections 62 and 63 of the release them, because we see this as a debt to the people Freedom of Information Act—this relates to the point of the country, but we also see it as exercising the will of made by the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson)—a Parliament. Parliament spoke in January last year; that record becomes an historical record 20 years after it voice has been blocked deliberately by this Government. was created, so the right hon. Gentleman is right, the I look to the Minister today to try to help us to move Government have legislated to make the 30-year rule a that blockage and to move it now. 20-year rule. Gradually we are working our way down so that in a few years all public papers, unless they are 4.16 pm exempted, will be released under the 20-year rule. I will The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Simon Hughes): come on to the qualification to which he referred. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Caton. Under the existing public records legislation, all records I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Blaydon selected for permanent preservation must be transferred (Mr Anderson); he knows that I respect hugely his to the National Archives by the time that they are commitment to this issue. I will not repeat myself, but 30 years old unless—this is the key issue—they are he also knows from the large debate that we had on the needed for administrative purposes or Floor of the House in January last year that I am very “ought to be retained for any other special reason”. sympathetic to the cause that was the basis of the Where that is deemed to be the case, the Department in dispute. I represented many building workers in the question must seek the Lord Chancellor’s approval. past, and I know that practice in the building industry was often appalling. In the ’70s and earlier, safety was Since 1967, successive Lord Chancellors in the three poor, so it was an important campaign for the unions to different types of Administration have been satisfied be involved with. I therefore start from a position of that information related to security and intelligence both respect for the people in the unions who were matters falls within the category of “other special reason”. involved and support for the cause that they were The approval granted in an administrative instrument campaigning on. I remember the dispute, and I thank signed by the Lord Chancellor is referred to as a security the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues for continuing and intelligence “blanket”. to pursue the issue. I will be as helpful as I can. He came The date to which the hon. Member for Blaydon and to see me after the previous debate, and we discussed the right hon. Member for Delyn referred arises from how we could make as much progress as possible. the current blanket approval given on 19 December I will try to deal with the issues quickly, but let me 2011 by the then Lord Chancellor, running up to the first summarise the facts. In 1972, there was a strike by end of 2021. It is then up to individual Departments to building workers in Shrewsbury.A number of the picketers decide whether they wish to rely on the security blanket were then arrested on charges of unlawful assembly and to keep information from the National Archives. 469WH The Shrewsbury 2424 MARCH 2015 The Shrewsbury 24 470WH

[Simon Hughes] May I be helpful in two other ways? In fact, I want to say three other things in the remaining few minutes. Papers retained under the blanket should be reviewed Four documents are central to the case, so let me put on for ongoing sensitivity every 10 years. The Cabinet the record what they are: a Security Service report; a Office has told me, as I told the hon. Member for Blaydon letter from the director-general of the Security Service last year, that the process to review the papers held by it to the Cabinet Secretary, which was released but for one is now under way and will be completed by the end of redacted paragraph; a minute from the Cabinet Office this year, as required under the Public Records Act. to No. 10 referring to the report, which was released I am aware that colleagues have been in touch with except for a single paragraph; and a minute from No. 10 Ministers in the Cabinet Office. There have also been to the Cabinet Office in reply, which has been released questions to me by the hon. Member for North Ayrshire except for a single paragraph. Those are the four documents and Arran (Katy Clark), which I answered in March that we are talking about—the four documents that we last year, and by the hon. Member for Blaydon on know about. 9 March this year, which the Minister for the Cabinet We also know that the bulk of the documents on the Office and Paymaster General answered: subject that are held by the Government have been released. “A review of these retained papers is under way and will be According to the figures I have, of the 1972 records—all completed by the end of 2015, as required by the Public Records records, not only those concerning the builders’ strike— Act.” 93.5%, or 50,917, are available to the public already; Today I saw that the hon. Gentleman was down to ask 2,932 are closed at the National Archives; and 1.1%, or an oral question as well. 625 documents, are retained by Departments. The assiduous researcher of the hon. Member for Blaydon has addressed I have also seen a letter about a constituent to the herself to those Departments on the hon. Gentleman’s Minister for Employment from the Minister for the behalf. The Departments have the responsibility to decide Cabinet Office and Paymaster General dated yesterday: whether to release the documents. I do not have the “Thank you for your e-mail…addressed to the Minister of power to order other Departments to release documents. State for Justice…regarding the release of papers relating to the Shrewsbury 24. The ongoing sensitivity of this material is subject If release is refused, there is a right of appeal under to periodic review and they are being reviewed this year. I am the Freedom of Information Act to the Information responding as the Minister responsible. Commissioner and the Information Tribunal. I will An outline of the material which has been retained was given continue to be as helpful as possible. to Parliament in a statement by Simon Hughes on 23 January 2014. The process to review the papers is under way and will be Ian Lavery: My hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon completed by the end of 2015, as required by the Public Records (Mr Anderson) commented that the Minister was a Act. I can also advise you that the Criminal Cases Review respected person. I have no doubt that that is the case. Commission has seen the papers and expressed no interest.” Will the Minister tell us what powers he has to progress It is open to the hon. Member for Blaydon, even at the matter? He has been in his position for quite some this stage in this Parliament, to make a request to the time now and I am wondering whether he has done Cabinet Office, whose decision it is, to have a meeting anything at all. with the Minister whose responsibility it will be as to whether to release those papers this year. I urge the hon. Simon Hughes: Within my powers as a Minister in the Gentleman to do that. He has pursued assiduously all Ministry of Justice I have done all that I can do. I do sorts of approaches to open up what has happened and not have the power to direct other Departments to I hope that, if he has not already done so, he will release documents for which they have the responsibility. approach the Cabinet Office Minister directly for a The process is: application to the Department, which meeting to make the formal request ahead of the decision. the researcher of the hon. Member for Blaydon has made, and, if turned down, a Freedom of Information Act appeal to the commissioner and to the tribunal. My Mr Anderson: That is the intent of my question to the advice continues to be to fight the case, as it were, in the Cabinet Office, which is down for tomorrow, but I am other Department—this is not in relation to the four on my feet to ask a different question. Does the Minister documents, which are covered by the Cabinet Office not find it strange that despite what was said in last secrecy blanket. To see if there is further material, other year’s debate and what I have said today, and despite documents have to be pursued Department by Department. campaigners out in the public domain attacking judges, police, Ministers, big business and every part of the Ian Lavery: I understand all that. The question is, establishment, not one of them has responded by saying, what powers does the Minister have and what powers “You have made all this up”? Not one has said, “You’re has he used since becoming a Minister to progress wrong, you’re out of order.” Does that not give even matters in his own Department? more credence to the fact of a cover-up to conceal what people have done, which was deliberately to put those Simon Hughes: We do not hold any of the documents people in jail as a lesson to working men and women? in my Department. The reason that I was responding to the debate is in part because I am the Minister with Simon Hughes: I absolutely understand the hon. responsibility for freedom of information. I have ensured Gentleman’s drawing that conclusion. To be fair—trying that the hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for to step back for a second—the fact that nothing has Blaydon know exactly how to use the powers given to been said can be open to interpretation in either direction, them by the law. I cannot take those powers away from but I completely understand the view that if there were them and I cannot tell Departments which information nothing to hide, someone might have said that. Legalistically, to release if they choose to refuse to do so, but there is a however, people might rightly have said that they could process in law that will take the hon. Gentlemen to the make no comment. courts in order to have the information released. 471WH The Shrewsbury 24 24 MARCH 2015 472WH

May I share one other thing that I hope will answer Property Taxes in London hon. Members’ questions? I am keen, if possible, for the FOI requests to be accepted and for the information to 4.30 pm be released across the Departments, as well as from the Cabinet Office. Under this year’s Cabinet Office process Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con): to decide whether to retain the documents, officials The so-called mansion tax is a big issue and will continue look at the material afresh and the test is whether the to be so in London for the next 44 days, in the run-up to transfer of the records to the National Archives or any the general election. It is not enough for those of us other place of deposit creates a “real risk of prejudice” who are against what is proposed simply to oppose it. to national security. That is the criterion they have to We—mainly Conservative Members—need to be on the judge by. Officials have to make that decision with front foot and have our own proposals for a property authority delegated from the Cabinet Office Minister. tax. That is what I want to put forward in this short debate. The Lord Chancellor looked at the papers in 2012 As the new year dawned, the right hon. Member for and satisfied himself that the test was applied, but even East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy) announced that the that decision—if the hon. Member for Blaydon goes to Labour party would the Cabinet Office to make the request and the papers are still not released—can be challenged by asking for “tax houses in London and the South East to pay for 1,000 new that information through an FOI request, which has an nurses in the Scottish NHS.” appeals process, and through judicial review if appropriate. Although he later clarified that he was referring only to I am happy to put the resources of my Department at Scotland’s share of any new mansion tax, the coupling his disposal as a seeker after the facts, but it is the of Labour’s mansion tax policy to its battle to the death Cabinet Office, subject to the courts, that makes the call with the Scottish National party, north of the border, that will determine whether a document is released. I over NHS staffing was doubtless deliberate. The Scottish hope that there can be progress this year and that, for Labour leader knew only too well that his focus on two his sake and the sake of those whom he represents, there targets of Scottish resentment, notionally London and is therefore the release of the documents. The decision, the well-off, would play wonderfully with his audience. however, is that of the Cabinet Office Minister. Alas, such messages resonate south of the border, as well. The notion of London and Londoners as some sort of cash cow able to fund all manner of policy promises has gained widespread traction in recent years. The capital city apparently sparkles with success and is brimful of confidence at a time when other parts of our kingdom are struggling. Increasingly people speak of London’s alienation from the rest of the UK, as the metropolis gobbles talent and makes a compelling case for its ever-increasing infrastructure budgets. Meanwhile, the issue of housing in London itself has become toxic. Boosted by the weakness of sterling and the perception of the UK as a safe haven, foreign money has flooded into England’s prime housing market. As the international enclave expands in the central London boroughs, prices are driven up in the outer suburbs. Meanwhile, rapid population growth, a lack of housing supply and the difficulty of saving for a vast deposit, alongside boosted prices that were already artificially affected by low interest rates and Government programmes, have made it tough even for professionals to enter the property market in our capital city. As a result, a passionate debate now rages about the possible imposition of a mansion tax, as a means of addressing the resentment felt both by the rest of the country towards its capital and by those Londoners excluded from the apparent property bonanza. Both the Labour party and the Liberal Democrats have made it clear that they wish to push ahead with such a levy on all properties valued at over £2 million. I appreciate that in a globally mobile world it is increasingly difficult to raise tax income, and so fixed assets such as real estate will inevitably tend to attract higher rates of taxation. But in spite of those parties’ apparent concern for fairness, as they would put it, neither has been receptive to the genuine worries of many of those hit hardest by their plans: people who happen to reside in homes whose value has inflated in recent decades to a level that bears no relation to the household’s ability to stump up large annual cash sums in a mansion-tax type levy—in other words, the asset rich but cash poor. 473WH Property Taxes in London24 MARCH 2015 Property Taxes in London 474WH

[Mark Field] and be distributed elsewhere, along the lines of the promise of the right hon. Member for East Renfrewshire I suspect a hefty annual mansion tax would drive to pay for Scottish nurses with Londoners’ money. greater numbers of Londoners from their homes, vacating even more prime central property for the global super-rich. Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): Like me, my As such, it should be vigorously opposed. Undeniably, right hon. Friend has received letters from people who however, my own Conservative party risks being left have lived in their houses for very many years, many of behind in the public debate on the issue if it fails whom are now widowed, who face the prospect of being adequately to address the resentments behind the mansion forced out of their homes by this relatively iniquitous tax’s apparent popularity. The Chancellor has already tax. It takes no account of ability to pay; it works from rapidly raised rates of stamp duty, particularly for a snapshot. Its unfairness is regional and also generational. homes purchased by companies, non-doms and offshore vehicles. Local authorities in London have also been Mark Field: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We given the power to remove most exemptions from council have all had heartfelt letters from elderly folk in particular tax for empty homes and second homes via the Local who are worried sick about the prospect. As I say, the Government Finance Act 2012. But the coalition is yet perverse impact would be that they would be driven out to grasp the nettle on council tax, and it is that prospect of their homes and those homes would be more likely to that I will raise with the Minister today. end up in the hands of the very oligarchs that the mansion tax is supposed to prevent from monopolising As the Minister will know, council tax was introduced the London property market. in April 1993 as the primary source of collecting income Many of my correspondents recognise that the current from local residents by local authorities, as a hybrid structure of council tax requires urgent updating and personal and property imposition. It came hot on the would be receptive to the imposition of additional heels of the ill-fated and short-lived community charge— bands to recognise differential property values—something better known as the poll tax—which had itself replaced that would, again, disproportionately penalise London. domestic rates in England in the spring of 1990. As we Currently, all banding ratios are set down in statute, but know, the levy for councils in England is calculated by the Government could allow local authorities to set allocating a dwelling to one of eight bands, A to H. The their own for band H and above, with bands A to G allocation is made on the basis of a property’s assumed remaining at their existing statutory ratios. A ceiling capital value. But that assumption is based on prices as could be set so that council tax would always be limited they stood on 1 April 1991—almost a quarter of a century to, for example, a band J of three times the existing ago. Newly constructed properties are also assigned a band H charge, to ensure that it would not become a nominal 1991 value, albeit one reflecting national rather mansion tax by the back door. than localised variations in value over the past 24 years. The City of Westminster might not be the most The tax is not even particularly proportionate to typical of local authorities, but obviously it is close to property values, as the same amount is levied on all my heart. In that central London borough, a band H homes valued at over £320,000 at 1991 prices, which is property is now likely to be worth more than £2 million; the national band H. That means that about half of all there are just under 15,000 of such homes. However, houses in the capital are now placed in the same council there is a vast difference between a £2 million flat in tax band, even though their size, location and value are Pimlico and a home valued at £60 million in One Hyde vastly different. A Knightsbridge oligarch, for instance, Park in Knightsbridge. is paying £1,353.48 in council tax on a £60 million Local authorities could be empowered to impose home, exactly the same amount as that levied on properties additional bands—for example, a band H for prime worth one thirtieth of that sum—properties that would properties worth between £2 million and £5 million, a fall within the mansion tax band. band I for intermediate prime properties worth between £5 million and £15 million and a band J for super-prime If the current outdated system of valuation seems properties worth more than £15 million. Crucially, the ludicrous, it can be explained by a concern among Government ought to ensure that all additional council politicians that the process and time taken for revaluation tax or prime property tax income over and above the would be contentious, difficult and potentially costly to existing band structure is retained by the local authority voters. However, there is a solution that is neither overly on the proviso that it is earmarked exclusively for affordable complex nor anything like as painful as a mansion tax. housing in the area. That positive and highly localised More important still, it could have a big upside when it proposal could be a far more eye-catching and exciting comes to the provision of affordable housing. way of countering the envy-driven mansion tax and My central London constituency has one of the tackling perceived housing inequality. It would also highest concentrations of high-value properties anywhere chime perfectly with the spirit of the age. As I mentioned in the country, so my constituents would be particularly earlier, the Government have moved towards a system vulnerable to the imposition of a new blanket mansion that gives local authorities discretion over empty property tax along the lines proposed. Indeed, over the past six taxes, so we are already empowering local authorities to or seven months I have been bombarded with letters apply local circumstances to the levying elements of telling me that, in spite of my vigorous opposition to a council tax. mansion tax, I should be doing more to stop my political Strong currents are pushing us towards a further opponents from even talking about one. Many of my devolution of central powers. London, in particular, constituents simply do not have the thousands of pounds would surely be able to make a compelling case for in cash needed each year to pay a mansion tax levied in localised revenue raising—particularly if Scotland becomes addition to council tax. They are also concerned that any ever more autonomous. Meanwhile, the enormous and additional income would go straight to central Government growing pressure on London’s housing supply will lead 475WH Property Taxes in London24 MARCH 2015 Property Taxes in London 476WH to an ever stronger case being made for the money raised needs. I implore the Minister to look in detail at these in the capital from its prime housing stock to be retained issues so the electorate can be presented with a real in the city for the provision of affordable housing. choice on these matters on 7 May. Politically, there is a compelling case to make. Residents in prime central houses are paying about a third of what 4.45 pm they were paying in rates, compared with even the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for 1980s, while the burden for those further down the scale Communities and Local Government (Kris Hopkins): It has increased proportionally. Reformers should take up is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Caton. this opportunity with relish. However, the proposal will I welcome the constructive input of my right hon. work only if the additional ring-fenced income is Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster disregarded by central Government when determining a (Mark Field) and his fresh perspective on the topic of local authority’s funding stream, to prevent councils from council tax. It is clear that a lot of work has gone into being financially disadvantaged by the use of the proposed developing his ideas, and I commend him for his thoughtful new bands. That could be achieved through a relatively approach. I also commend the London borough of minor revision to the Government’s annual tax base Westminster for having kept council tax levels at the return—CTB1—to show that each local authority’s tax same rate for the past four years. The banding system is base calculation for bands H, I and J are along the lines set nationally, but council tax levels are set locally, and I have proposed and are based on the existing 18/9 Westminster’s approach has helped to keep living costs band H ratio. That would ensure that the local authority down for hard-working residents. funding streams calculated using the CTB1 tax base There are many matters about which my right hon. data remain unaffected. It would be a relatively Friend and I agree. We agree that a mansion tax is not straightforward change, as far as the Minister’s Department the answer, whatever the question. It would be complex is concerned. to introduce, involve the re-evaluation of many homes Although my proposal avoids the complexity of a and raise fairness issues about the ability of those liable fully fledged revaluation, it should nevertheless be noted to pay the tax. We have no intention of introducing a that such complexity is fast reducing with the rise of mansion tax. online property sites, which are able to provide pretty My right hon. Friend and I also agree about the accurate historical and current market assessments. Would importance of affordable homes, which is why, despite it really be that difficult to establish a system of self- the fiscal constraints, we have secured capital resources assessment, such as the one in France, where there is a for affordable housing. Almost 217,000 affordable homes wealth tax whereby the worth of the equity of a property have been delivered in England since April 2010. Our is submitted on an annual basis and can be challenged affordable homes programme is on track to deliver by the town hall if it is thought not to be an accurate another 170,000 affordable homes between 2011 and assessment of market value? 2015. More than 144,000 homes have already been delivered under the programme. My party must never give in to the politics of envy and to class war rhetoric, but the wide support for a The Government are now seeking to accelerate the mansion tax among some fair-minded people is, in part, increase in the number of affordable homes. By the end a reflection of a collective failure to grasp the nettle by of the next Parliament, we should see 275,000 additional comprehensively reviewing property taxes. However, affordable homes built with £38 billion of public and the mansion tax, as proposed by the other two main private investment. That means that we will have built political parties in England, must not go ahead. It is more new affordable homes than during the equivalent mooted as fair—whatever that really means—but the period in the past 20 years. We have introduced a range real, practical concerns of people in my constituency of measures to get Britain building again, to fix the are simply disregarded as the bleating of the cosseted broken housing market and to help hard-working people rich, despite its threatening to ruin many. That applies get the homes they want. to Wimbledon as much as it does to the Cities of We recognise that the process of devolution is positive London and Westminster. My hon. Friend the Member and necessary, with regard to local government finance. for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond) and I are used to Indeed, the Government have devolved significant heartfelt pleas from elderly constituents, many of whom responsibility to local authorities, and the reforms are are sickened with worry about this matter. still bedding in. The affordable homes programme, which the Mayor has undertaken, comes with £1 billion of The time is ripe to tackle the outdated system of devolved money. There is a real commitment to work council tax in a way that is fairer and allows for genuine with boroughs and councils in London to deliver that local discretion. Incremental targeting of the highest-value package of housing. properties could be accompanied by a new localised council tax support scheme that would allow specific My right hon. Friend and I also agree that the instances of individual hardship to be addressed. re-evaluation process is expensive and complex. However, we differ in that the Government do not support the It is widely reported that our capital city may just introduction of a higher council tax band. Council tax have equalled its peak population, and it is anticipated is not a wealth tax, but a charge for the use of local services. that 100,000 people per year will be added to this great The current banding system reflects the fact that larger metropolis. The capital urgently needs more housing of homes make a slightly greater use of local services, but all types, but particularly more affordable housing. If it is intentionally not a poll tax or a domestic tax. the money from London’s additional council tax bands were to be reinvested directly into the communities Mark Field: I accept that Westminster is relatively from whence it came, we could begin to provide the exceptional, but the £320,000 limit means that more homes that the next generation of Londoners desperately than half the properties are in the same band, which 477WH Property Taxes in London24 MARCH 2015 Property Taxes in London 478WH

[Mark Field] bands would unbalance that system and alter the key principles of council tax, which, after all, is not a wealth suggests that the banding system is not working well. tax. Extra revenue has been raised, however, by the Although Westminster is an exception in that regard, I taxes placed and targeted on owners of high-value suspect that it is not the only area in London or the property who seek to avoid paying their share of tax, as south-east in which a significantly disproportionate number I have said. Furthermore, our innovative measures and of properties are in either of the top two bands. programmes and a range of products that will meet a range of housing needs, with support from councils, Kris Hopkins: I recognise the tensions associated with housing associations and the private sector, will continue this, but as a former Housing Minister, I have to respond to deliver and build on the affordable homes programme. to the idea of taxing people who live in certain houses. As both my right hon. Friend and my hon. Friend the My right hon. Friend raised the issue of foreign Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond) have pointed investment, and I appreciate that a significant number out, the fact that a person lives in a particular house of people come to this great international city and may not mean that they are cash-rich as a consequence. invest. They have done so for many years, but sometimes A set of circumstances may have led to their owning the people can distort the sort of comments that he made. house, and simply placing a greater tax burden on those In my time as Housing Minister, I saw many acres of individuals does not necessarily produce more affordable coverage discussing the issue in many supplements. We homes. should recognise that we are open-minded about people wanting to come to this city and invest in our infrastructure Stephen Hammond: Will the Minister follow that line and housing. of logic? Even if he is not prepared to accept part of what my right hon. Friend the Member for Cities of Mark Field: Before the Minister concludes, I would London and Westminster (Mark Field)said, perhaps he like to put on the record that I very much support the will be prepared to look at the structure of banding free movement of capital; it is a positive thing, broadly, regionally, to give a greater reflection of the differentials for London and for the UK as a whole. That said, there in house prices in different parts of the country. The has been controversy about the so-called dark lights in current band structure clearly cannot reflect that, so the large bits of Kensington, Knightsbridge and Belgravia, case for regional banding becomes even stronger. although I think that is exaggerated to some extent. Quite a lot of the properties that are purchased are Kris Hopkins: I respect my hon. Friend’s comments, rented out to UK nationals or other London residents. but as a Conservative who has had many conversations A big sea change would be needed if we were somehow about the word “regional”, I can tell him that that word to discourage the free movement of capital, and although does not sit comfortably in the Department at this time. that might open up matters a bit in the London property I assure him that we will not be having a “regional” market, it could have a very detrimental effect on much conversation about taxation. of the rest of the British economy. The Government have already taken strong action Kris Hopkins: I completely recognise the huge support against owners of high-value property who seek to for inward investment in the country that my right hon. avoid paying their fair share of tax. We have introduced Friend has promoted and encouraged, and he will continue a number of measures, including the 15% rate of stamp to, I am sure. duty land tax, the annual tax on enveloped dwellings, and the extensions to capital gains tax, which target We should put on the record the fact that in 2013, the those individuals who “envelope” residential properties Bank of England estimated that foreign buyers represented by owning or purchasing them through certain non-natural some 3% of the total residential property transactions persons, such as companies. Those measures are proving in London. Savills said, again in 2013, that the current effective. For instance, in its first year of operation— level of sales to overseas buyers is the same proportionately 2013-14—the annual tax on enveloped dwellings raised now as it was in 1990. It is important to put things in about five times more than the original £20 million context, so that individuals do not race away with forecast. It is expected to raise £110 million in 2014-15. another idea that some of the issues associated with affordable housing are about foreign people coming to Two important phrases came out of what my right our country. Foreign people are coming to our country hon. Friend and hon. Friend said: the “politics of envy” and investing in our infrastructure and our housing. and the “class warfare” element. Both the measures that we have introduced to pursue the individuals who are In conclusion, I genuinely appreciate the time taken avoiding tax are about making sure that people who on this issue by my right hon. Friend and hon. Friend. I have money and should pay tax do so. That argument is am sure that my right hon. Friend the Member for different from the one that the Labour party is making, Cities of London and Westminster will make representations which instils the politics of envy and class warfare against to other parts of Government about his ideas. I reassure those who have achieved, rather than supporting those him that, from my time as Housing Minister I know who are ambitious and seek to be successful in life. That that the Mayor of London takes the issue of affordable is at our root as Conservatives: we will support the housing extremely seriously. I am sure that through individual who wants to aspire to own something, rather working with partners such as Westminster and through than punishing somebody who has achieved those goals the leadership that my right hon. Friend has taken on and ambitions. this issue, we can begin to address this need—and there is a huge need—for both affordable and private sector The admirable achievements of successful local quality houses for the people of London. authorities, such as that of my right hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster, Question put and agreed to. demonstrate the effectiveness of the current council tax 4.56 pm system. We believe that the implementation of higher Sitting adjourned. 111WS Written Statements24 MARCH 2015 Written Statements 112WS

is an area where England has had a historic weakness Written Statements and where we continue to lag behind the performance of other developed countries. Tuesday 24 March 2015 The Government have started work to reverse these long-term issues: notably by supporting National Colleges as specialist institutions for areas including digital skills, the nuclear industry, high speed rail, and advanced BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS manufacturing techniques; and by introducing high level apprenticeships as a parallel route to full-time higher Companies House: Public Targets education in order to provide more choice for learners and increase business engagement. But there is more to do, and sustained action by Government, businesses, The Minister for Business and Enterprise (Matthew and educational institutions will be necessary if we are Hancock): I have set Companies House the following to succeed. targets for the year 2015-16: This second part of the mandate is also important. Further education provides a vital lifeline to those, often in the most disadvantaged circumstances, who PUBLIC TARGETS reached adulthood without the basic skills they need for Digital the workplace or for modern life. We have set out how To achieve an average electronic filing target of 85% we improved the delivery of basic skills and community (received and accepted) by the end of the year. learning by allowing greater flexibility for providers to Customer tailor services to the needs of users and to innovate by encouraging the development of a more diverse supplier Achieve an overall satisfaction score of more than base. 88% in the Companies House satisfaction survey. The final section of the document looks at the Efficiency implications for providers of adult further education, To reduce the average cost per company, adjusted for particularly further education colleges. It sets out two inflation and excluding exceptional items, by 10% in key trends that the Government forecast will continue 2015-16. over the rest of this decade and beyond. First, reductions Compliance in public funds for skills are unlikely to be reversed, and To achieve a monthly compliance rate of 94% for resource allocation will increasingly be contestable. Secondly, accounts submitted to Companies House. To achieve a effective delivery will increasingly require greater monthly compliance rate of 77% for annual returns specialisation. submitted to Companies House. The Government have supported a shift to greater Service availability influence and control over skills at the local level. The Our online services are available 99.9% of the time. logic for such an approach is strong: adult further education essentially serves local labour market needs. [HCWS453] The document therefore explores how greater influence at the local level, as signalled by city deals and the Adult Vocational Education devolution agreements with Manchester and Sheffield may be further strengthened and extended in future years. The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and The consultation period runs until 16 June 2015. Skills (Vince Cable): The Government are today launching [HCWS457] the consultation document––“A Dual Mandate for Adult Vocational Education”. A copy will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses. This builds on our reform programme to date and explores some of the key issues that will ensure our CABINET OFFICE vocational education system is able to meet the major skills challenges that will face this country over the next five years and beyond. The issues raised in the document imply important Public Data Principles changes for how we think about further education for adults. The further education sector covers a wider range of learners than either schools or higher education. It ranges from basic literacy, numeracy and elementary The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster social skills at a level that would be taught in a primary General (Mr Francis Maude): I am laying the “Report reception class or even pre-school through to degree on departmental open data commitments and adherence level technical education. to public data principles for the period between April and June 2014”. The primary focus of the document is on how we can strengthen higher level vocational education in this The report is released on a quarterly basis and details country. This is defined as education which goes above progress against our commitment to open up Government what should be achieved in compulsory education, but data. will often not involve a full-time academic degree. This [HCWS454] 113WS Written Statements24 MARCH 2015 Written Statements 114WS

Security and Intelligence Agencies: Contingencies Finance Bill Fund Advance

The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster Gauke): The Government are today publishing Finance General (Mr Francis Maude): My statement of 17 March Bill 2015. informed Parliament of the intention to access £66,800,000 In December 2014, the Government published over from the contingency fund pending parliamentary approval 250 pages of draft Finance Bill 2015 legislation for of the supply estimates 2014-15. Royal Assent of the technical consultation, meeting their commitment to Supply and Appropriation (Anticipation and Adjustments) publish the majority of Finance Bill clauses in draft at Bill has been further delayed therefore the Security and least three months ahead of introduction. The final Intelligence Agencies are seeking an additional advance legislation reflects comments received during the of £42,900,000. consultation process. As the Security and Intelligence Agencies are non- The Government have subsequently decided to defer ministerial departments, I am making this statement on a number of measures previously announced for Finance behalf of their Accounting Officer, to ensure that Parliament Bill 2015 to a future Finance Bill, in recognition of the is informed of this advance from the Contingencies accelerated parliamentary process that the Bill will be Fund. subject to. At the same time, a number of priority [HCWS455] measures announced at Budget 2015 will be included in the Bill. The detail of these changes is set out in the “Overview of Tax Legislation and Rates”, published on 18 March: TREASURY https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/ finance-bill-2015-overview-documents-at-budget-2015 In addition, a number of clauses which had been ECOFIN intended for Finance Bill 2015 have been deferred as a result of discussions with the Opposition in the context of the end-of-Parliament wash up process. These clauses The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): concern: A meeting of the Economic and Financial Affairs Council A new tax exemption for travel expenses of members of local was held in Brussels on 10 March 2015. Ministers authorities (announced July 2014); discussed the following items: A new statutory exemption from income tax for trivial benefits Investment plan for Europe in kind, implementing a recommendation of the Office of Tax The Council agreed a general approach on the proposal Simplification’s review of employee benefits and expenses on the European Fund for Strategic Investments (EFSI). (announced at Budget 2014); This will allow the presidency, on behalf of the Council, Simplifying link company requirements for consortium claims under corporation tax (announced autumn statement 2014); to start negotiations with the European Parliament. Changes to scheme rules for the Enterprise Investment Scheme Current legislative proposals and Venture Capital Trusts (announced at Budget 2015)—on The presidency updated delegations on the state of which draft legislation is being published today and which are play of legislative proposals in the field of financial subject to EU State aid approval; and services. A separate rate of excise duty for aqua methanol (announced at Budget 2014). Implementation of the banking union The Government intend that measures deferred to a The Commission informed delegations on the state future Bill will be legislated at the earliest opportunity of play on banking union implementation, providing in the new Parliament. updates on the bank recovery and resolution directive [HCWS467] (BRRD) implementation and the ratification of the intergovernmental agreement (IGA) on the single resolution fund (SRF). CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT European semester: Country reports Analogue Commercial Radio Licence Renewals The Commission presented the 27 “Country Reports” published in February. Implementation of the stability and growth pact The Minister for Culture and the Digital Economy The Commission set out the main conclusions of the (Mr Edward Vaizey): The UK has a rich and thriving country report and in depth review exercise as they commercial radio sector, providing a wide range of related to the stability and growth pact (SGP). The programmes that appeal to a variety of different tastes. Council adopted, through a vote by Eurozone member Commercial radio plays a key role in the provision of states, a recommendation under the excessive deficit national, international and local news, delivering large procedure (EDP) for France to correct its deficit by amounts of locally produced and relevant content, and 2017. providing a dynamic platform for the UK’s world leading music and entertainment industries. Other business A key part of supporting commercial radio is the ECOFIN had a short exchange of views regarding need to create and maintain a stable regulatory framework the fight against tax avoidance, in relation to the presidency that fully supports continued investment by commercial “Road Map” on fighting base erosion and profit shifting. radio in the face of increased competition for audiences [HCWS466] and changes in patterns of media consumption. 115WS Written Statements24 MARCH 2015 Written Statements 116WS

In December 2013, the Government concluded that it of commodity items and the storage and distribution was not the right time to commit to a future radio elements of LCS. The transformation programme is switchover or set a firm or indicative timetable for such expected to deliver financial savings of around £0.5 billion a move. This remains the Government’s view. However, over the life of the contract and involve the TUPE the Government fully support the transition to digital transfer of some 1,250 staff. It will bring defence logistics radio and have provided up to £7.75 million to fund the up to the standard of industry best practice, deliver expansion of local digital radio coverage to approach more efficient and effective processes across the supply commercial FM coverage by September 2016. An effect chain and enhance the quality of support provided to of the Government’s decision in December 2013 was our armed forces. that the licences which were renewed for seven years LCS staff are based at a number of MOD sites across under the provisions of the Broadcasting Act 1990—as the United Kingdom, but the bulk of the current LCS amended by the Digital Economy Act 2010 Act—will storage activity in the UK is located at LCS Bicester in begin to expire from 2017, before a switchover is possible, Oxfordshire and LCS Donnington in Shropshire. The and leaving around 60 licences facing expiration. majority of procurement and inventory management of In November 2014, the Government therefore consulted commodity items is currently undertaken at Abbey on whether the current legislation should be amended Wood, Bristol. It is of course early days and I cannot be to allow further renewal of existing analogue commercial definitive on the impact on jobs; it is a matter for radio licences without re-advertising the affected licences. Leidos, ultimately, to determine the number of staff Our consultation found that there is widespread support necessary to undertake the work. What I can say is we for renewal of the affected licences. Although some do not foresee any site closures as a direct result of respondents considered that the sector and listeners LCS(T). could potentially benefit from re-advertisement of these Team Leidos is a skilled and experienced team of licences, Government have concluded that the benefits private sector defence and logistic specialist partners of allowing further renewals outweigh any potential with the global expertise to deliver the transformation benefits of stations re-competing for licences. required. The programme represents a significant financial For this reason, the Government believe it is appropriate investment in new facilities—including the investment to give Ofcom the ability to further renew national and of around £90 million in the construction of a new local analogue commercial radio licences under sections defence fulfilment centre next to the existing LCS site at 103B (which covers national licences) and 104AA (which Donnington in Shropshire—and a further £40 million covers local licences) of the Broadcasting Act 1990 for a investment in new IT systems to provide the modern further period of five years. We believe a renewal period and efficient services that the UK armed forces need. of this length will drive momentum in the continued [HCWS473] transition to digital radio, and provide commercial radio with the stability it needs to support this transition. The Government therefore intend to lay a Legislative Welfare and Duty of Care in Armed Forces Initial Reform Order in Parliament as soon as possible to Training: Ofsted Report bring forward this change. The Government are also today publishing their response to the consultation, alongside the full impact assessment The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Anna and findings of an independent study carried out by Soubry): Today Ofsted publish their eighth report on value partners into the advantages and disadvantages of welfare and duty of care in armed forces initial training, the proposals on which we consulted. copies of which I have placed in the Library of the We believe this important change will continue to House. Following inspections of eight armed forces support the whole of commercial radio and provide the initial training establishments between September 2014 necessary stability for the sector as a whole as it moves and January 2015, Ofsted report that recruits and trainees towards a digital future. feel safe and that their welfare needs are being broadly [HCWS465] met. The report is, largely, a positive one and emphasises the improvement in many aspects of welfare and duty DEFENCE of care in the establishments inspected; indeed all the locations assessed by Ofsted were judged as “good” or Logistics Commodities and Services Transformation better, and two, in particular, were rated as “outstanding”. Programme In a change from previous years Ofsted conducted, for the first time, an ungraded monitoring visit to review the arrangements for welfare and duty of care of phase The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence 1 reserve recruits. This reflects the growing importance (Mr Philip Dunne): On 23 February 2015, in a ministerial of the reserves within the armed forces as a whole and written statement, I informed the House that Leidos paves the way for further Ofsted involvement with reserve had been selected as the preferred bidder for a forces training in future years. transformation programme within Logistic Commodities In another development this year, Ofsted conducted and Services (LCS), part of Defence Equipment and visits to each of the Royal Navy, Army and Royal Air Support. Force training headquarters. These visits, which did not Contractual negotiations have now been completed, result in graded judgements, identified strengths in the and I am pleased to announce that the Ministry of provision of support and strategic direction for training, Defence will shortly be signing a 13-year contract with as well as identifying specific areas for development and Leidos to run the procurement and inventory management improvement. 117WS Written Statements24 MARCH 2015 Written Statements 118WS

Ofsted make a number of recommendations for The House will be informed of the outcome of the improvement, particularly in the areas of instructor review, which is expected to be completed in the summer. selection and qualification, site infrastructure and [HCWS469] information and data management and analysis. The armed forces remain committed to ensuring that Veterans Advisory and Pensions Committees: Triennial initial training is supportive of the needs of its recruits, Review cadets and trainees and this year’s Ofsted report provides assurance and recommendations to maintain our commitment to a culture of continuous improvement. The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Anna [HCWS463] Soubry): The Ministry of Defence is required to review their non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs) at least once every three years to ensure that they have regular Service Complains Commissioner: Annual Report independent challenge. I am today announcing the review to examine whether there is a continuing need for the function provided by the Veterans Advisory and Pensions The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Anna Committees Soubry): I am pleased to lay before Parliament today The review will be conducted in two stages. The first the Service Complaints Commissioner’s annual report stage will examine the key functions of the VAPCs. If for 2014 on the fairness, effectiveness and efficiency of the outcome of this stage is that delivery should continue, the service complaints system. the second stage of the review will ensure that the body This is the first report to be published by Nicola is operating in line with the recognised principles of Williams as the Service Complaints Commissioner, and good corporate governance. covers the work of her office in 2014 under the leadership I will inform the House of the outcome of the review of her predecessor Dr Susan Atkins. I would like to take in the summer when it is completed. this opportunity to echo her praise for the work done by Dr Atkins during her time in post. [HCWS468] The report details those areas where further work is required to make improvements to the way complaints are handled, while also recognising the good work that ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE the services have undertaken during 2014 and the changes that they have made to the way they manage complaints. The continuous improvement approach that the services International Investments have adopted since the complaints system was introduced in 2008 has, year on year, delivered significant changes to how complaints are managed by all those involved in The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change the process. These changes, and those proposed by the (Mr Edward Davey): Further to the statement made on Armed Forces (Service Complaints and Financial 11 June 2014 by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of Assistance) Bill will make the process shorter and quicker, State for Business, Innovation and Skills, I would like to while also strengthening oversight and accountability inform Parliament that we have agreed, along with the through the powers of the new Service Complaints Secretary of State for International Development, to Ombudsman. pursue a new pilot joint venture with the UK Green Investment Bank (GIB) to assist in investment of the The findings of the report and the recommendations UK’s international climate fund (ICF). made are now being considered in detail. A formal response to the Commissioner will follow when that GIB has been very successful in mobilising private work is complete. sector investment into the UK’s green infrastructure and economy—since its official launch in autumn 2012, [HCWS472] GIB has invested in 42 projects and committed £1.8 billion of capital, which will deliver £6.6 billion of new infrastructure investment. The projects supported by Independent Medical Expert Group: Triennial Review GIB will, when complete, save 3.7 million tonnes of CO2 per year. At the same time, the Government have ambitious targets for providing support to projects The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Anna in developing countries that will mitigate climate Soubry): I am today announcing the start of the triennial change or enable communities to adapt to its effects. review of the Independent Medical Expert Group. Triennial Developed countries have committed to jointly mobilising reviews are part of the Government’s commitment to US$100 billion of climate finance a year by 2020 for ensuring that non-departmental public bodies continue developing countries, from both public and private to have regular independent challenge. sources. The UK is playing its part; we have already The review will examine whether there is a continuing allocated £3.87 billion to the UK’s ICF to finance such need for the Independent Medical Expert Group’s function projects. This also contributes to the Government’s and its form, and whether it should continue to exist at 0.7% of GNI aid commitment. Unmitigated climate arm’s length from Government. Should the review conclude change will hit the poorest first and hardest. there is a continuing need for the body, it will go on to It is vital that we use public climate finance to catalyse examine whether the body’s control and governance private investment into developing countries. By working arrangements continue to meet the recognised principles with the Green Investment Bank, DECC will be able to of good corporate governance. draw on its unique mix of investment expertise, commercial 119WS Written Statements24 MARCH 2015 Written Statements 120WS discipline and close alignment of green policy objectives He also highlighted the economic benefits that could to maximise the impact and effectiveness of UK climate flow from reform, with the prospect of greater inward finance. investment for those countries that provided good We intend to commit £200 million of UK climate governance and stability. finance in the pilot over three years, to invest in renewable The Council adopted conclusions on Ebola, noting energy and energy efficiency projects in developing countries; the scope for the EU and its member states to keep supporting economic growth, job creation, and development playing a leading role in supporting co-operation in the of reliable energy infrastructure. In doing so the pilot affected region to end Ebola and ensuring it did not aims to demonstrate the commercial viability of low resurge. The Council also adopted conclusions on the carbon investment and crowding-in of private investment Gulf of Guinea action plan, and Mali. in addition to delivering significant emissions reductions. Libya This will complement the existing portfolio of ICF investments, which work through multilateral development Ministers discussed the situation in Libya and possibilities partners, such as the World Bank, as well as direct for EU support in the event of a positive outcome of support to programmes developed and delivered in the UN-led peace talks. Ms. Mogherini stressed the countries. need for urgent consideration of possible EU support once a National Unity Government was established. This new venture will have no impact on the resources The Foreign Secretary agreed that the EU needed to be or capital of £3.8 billion which we have allocated to prepared to respond swiftly to the different scenarios, GIB for investment in the UK. GIB remains fully and set out the importance of focusing on the twin-tracks committed to helping the UK meet its domestic climate of the political process and counter-terrorism. He also change goals. Indeed, this additional activity should highlighted the need for the EU to focus on working benefit GIB’s core UK operations as GIB further builds with international partners to stem the flow of irregular its global reputation both as an expert in green finance migrants and weapons from Libya, and ensuring that and as a fund manager. Libya’s financial assets were safeguarded for the benefit The UK’s financial services industry is world renowned, of all Libyans. Other member states emphasised concerns as is our leadership in tackling climate change, and this over the humanitarian situation, irregular migration vehicle brings together these two strengths in a partnership flows, energy instability and the rise of extremists. Ministers that will enhance the UK’s reputation globally. called on the high representative to prepare policy options, [HCWS462] including on possible CSDP activities, ahead of the April FAC. The Commission was also invited to develop a comprehensive strategy for Libya, taking into account the regional context. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Migration Over lunch, ministers explored how EU foreign policy Foreign Affairs Council and General Affairs Council could contribute to comprehensively tackling Europe’s migration challenges. The debate will feed into the preparation of more concrete proposals for decision at The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): My one of the next Foreign Affairs Councils. right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs attended the Foreign Affairs Eastern Partnership Council on 16 March in Brussels. The Foreign Affairs The FAC discussed preparations for the fourth Eastern Council was chaired by the High Representative of the Partnership summit in Riga on 21 and 22 May 2015. European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, The summit, chaired by European Council President Federica Mogherini. Donald Tusk, will bring EU heads of state or Government Dimitris Avromopoulos, Commissioner for Migration, together with those of Eastern partner countries. A Home Affairs and Citizenship, was in attendance for meeting between EU Foreign Ministers and their the working lunch at the FAC on migration. The General counterparts from the Eastern Partnership countries is Affairs Council was chaired by the Latvian presidency. scheduled to take place in the margins of the Foreign The meetings were held in Brussels. Affairs Council in April. Other business FOREIGN AFFAIRS COUNCIL Hungary raised the situation of Christians in Iraq A provisional report of the meeting and conclusions and passed on a request from the Chaldean Archbishop adopted can be found at: of Erbil for humanitarian assistance. Luxembourg raised http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/meetings/fac/2015/ Israel’s withholding of tax receipts from the Palestinian 03/16/ Authority. Africa Ministers agreed without discussion a number of Ministers held an in depth strategic discussion on EU other measures: relations with Africa, covering peace, prosperity and The Council adopted conclusions on the EU regional partnership with regional African organisations. strategy for Syria and Iraq as well as the ISIL/Da’esh threat Ms Mogherini highlighted the opportunities Africa offered The Council welcomed the political agreement to conclude to the EU and was keen to emphasise that there was a the Bosnia-Herzegovina SAA story of progress, growth, and economic opportunity. The Council approved the EU position for the EU-Ukraine The Foreign Secretary highlighted the need to focus on Association Council: The EU agreed the EU-Ukraine both challenges and opportunities, highlighting the Co-operation Council would adopt the EU-Ukraine association contribution Africa could make to an EU energy strategy. agenda 121WS Written Statements24 MARCH 2015 Written Statements 122WS

The Council established the EU position for the first European semester 2015 meeting of the EU-Moldova Association Council, to take place on 16 March 2015 in Brussels The GAC noted the presidency synthesis report and updated road map for the 2015 European semester for The Council adopted the EU position for the 11th meeting further discussion at the March European Council. of the EU-Tunisia Association Council, which will be held on 17 March 2015 in Brussels Any other business The Council authorised the EU to approve the Under any other business, the presidency briefed the implementation of the EU-Tunisia action plan at the EU-Tunisia Council on a letter it had received from the Icelandic Association Council Minister for Foreign Affairs outlining the intentions of The Council extended the mandates of two EU special the Government of Iceland in relation to their application representatives until 31 October 2015: to join the EU. 1. EU Special Representative for the Horn of Africa, [HCWS460] Mr Alexander Rondos. A budget of ¤1.77 million was allocated to him for the period between 1 March 2015 and 31 October 2015. British Indian Ocean Territory: Resettlement

2. EU Special Representative for the Sahel, Mr Michal Reveyrand-de Menthon. ¤900.000 has been set aside for his activities during the period between 1 March The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign 2015 and 31 October 2015. and Commonwealth Affairs (James Duddridge): My right hon. Friend the Minister of State for Foreign and The Council authorised the opening of negotiations for an agreement on co-operation between the United Nations Commonwealth Affairs, Mr Hugo Swire, informed the and the European Union in crisis management operations House on 10 February 2015 of the next steps in The Council extended the mandate of the EU military the Government’s review of its resettlement policy in mission to contribute to the training of Somali security the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT), following forces completion, on schedule, of an independent feasibility The Council launched the EU military advisory mission study. The study found there was not a clear indication in the Central African Republic of likely demand for resettlement, and costs and liabilities to the UK taxpayer were uncertain and potentially The Commission pledged ¤1 million to Vanuatu in the wake of Cyclone Pam. significant. Ministers have now agreed that further work should proceed to address these fundamental uncertainties to a point that a decision on the way ahead is possible. GENERAL AFFAIRS COUNCIL [HCWS461] A provisional report of the meeting and conclusions adopted can be found at: http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/meetings/gac/2015/ HOME DEPARTMENT 03/17/ The General Affairs Council (GAC) on 17 March focused on: preparation of the European Council on Passport Office: Annual Report 19 and 20 March 2015; and the European semester 2015. Preparation of the March European Council The Minister for Security and Immigration (James Brokenshire): The annual report and accounts for Her The GAC prepared the 19 and 20 March European Majesty’s Passport Office has been laid before the House Council, which the Prime Minister attended. The March today. European Council agenda covered: energy union, including energy security; the internal market and climate security; On 26 September 2014, the Home Secretary announced economic issues including the annual European semester that Her Majesty’s Passport Office would cease to operate process; and external relations issues, including Ukraine, as a separate agency and would be absorbed into the Libya and the Eastern Partnership summit to be held in Home Office on 30 September. These accounts cover Latvia in May. the period from 1 April to 30 September 2014 only. Copies of the report are available from the Vote On energy union I emphasised the importance of Office. having the right governance system in place. Member states must have flexibility to decarbonise in the most [HCWS470] efficient way by choosing their own energy mix and the EU must not impose unnecessary burdens, as was recognised at the 2014 October European Council. I National DNA Database: Ethics Group Annual Report also welcomed the commitment to a technology and innovation strategy, but as set out in the Commission’s communication, this should cover the full range of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the emerging technologies. Home Department (Karen Bradley): My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Bates) On economic issues, I supported the goal of concluding has today made the following written ministerial statement: negotiations on an ambitious, comprehensive and mutually I am pleased to announce the publication of the 7th annual beneficial TTIP agreement by the end of the year. I also report of the National DNA Database Ethics Group on 24 March emphasised the need to pursue the better regulation 2015. The group was established on 25 July 2007 to provide agenda and reduce regulatory burdens, especially for Ministers with independent ethical advice on the operation and SMEs. practice of the National DNA database. 123WS Written Statements24 MARCH 2015 Written Statements 124WS

I welcome the recommendations made within the report including The convention is intended to harmonize contractual the need to ensure rigour across DNA methodologies to minimise and navigational standards on inland waterways in the risk of error and contamination and the importance of European countries. Article 29 of the Budapest convention sharing DNA information internationally in order to assist in the contains provisions on the choice of law by the parties apprehension of those that commit crimes across national borders. to a contract of carriage falling under the convention. The Ethics Group’s annual report can be viewed on the website of the National DNA Database Ethics Group and I am arranging Those provisions affect the rules laid down in the Rome for a copy to be placed in the Library the House. I regulation, which came into force on 24 July 2008 and [HCWS471] applies in situations involving a conflict of laws and to contractual obligations in civil and commercial matters. Austria and Poland have on several occasions expressed TRANSPORT their interest in becoming parties to the convention. Although Belgium ratified the Budapest convention Crossrail 2 Safeguarding Consultation Response on 5 August 2008, it was after the adoption and entry into force of regulation (EC) 593/2008—the Rome I regulation—on the law applicable to contractual obligations The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport within the EU. Therefore, the Budapest convention falls (Mr Robert Goodwill): I am today publishing a response partly under exclusive European Union competence, document summarising the views given during the because of its relationship with the EU regulation and consultation on updating the safeguarding direction for any member state wishing to join the Budapest convention the proposed Crossrail 2 rail project, and providing the is first required to obtain Union authorisation to do so. Government’s response. The proposal is therefore also addressed to Belgium, in The Government have considered the responses to order to ensure Union authorisation and to rectify the the consultation carefully, and the Secretary of State currently unlawful situation. has decided to issue the safeguarding direction with changes at Wimbledon, Wandsworth Common, Angel The proposal has been published with a legal base and Soho Square. The updated direction will come into falling within title V of part 3 of the treaty on the effect from today. functioning of the European Union (TFEU)—justice and home affairs (JHA) matters. The EU currently has Crossrail 2 is a proposed new rail line across Central competency in this matter; the Government also maintain London, running from New Southgate and Tottenham that the UK is still entitled to use its opt-in under Hale in the north-east to Wimbledon in the south-west. protocol 21 of the treaty and in negotiations the The route passes through the City of Westminster, the Government will continue to seek amendments to the London boroughs of Barnet, Camden, Enfield, Hackney, wording of the relevant recital of the proposed decision Haringey, Islington, Merton, and Wandsworth, and the to reflect this. If the Government are unable to succeed, Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea. we will revert to laying a minute statement to underline Safeguarding is the first stage in the planning process. the UK’s position. It enables the Secretary of State for Transport to issue a direction to local planning authorities to protect land The UK is not a party to the Budapest convention needed for long-term infrastructure projects. Safeguarding and has no cross-border exchange of goods within EU does not necessarily prevent other developments from inland waterways. The UK has previously indicated, as taking place, but it ensures that when they do take place has the Republic of Ireland, that there is no commercial the design can accommodate the planned infrastructure. carriage of goods by inland waterways between the two and so there is no impact on the UK. Nonetheless, it is The response document will be made available on the clearly an important legal instrument for those member Department for Transport website. Copies of the response states that do have cross-border exchange of goods document, the direction, guidance and associated maps within EU inland waterways, since it provides a mechanism have been made available in the Libraries of both for resolving conflicts of law in relation to the contracts Houses. associated with the carriage of goods. [HCWS458] Since the provisions are not expected to have any Budapest Convention on Contract for Carriage of impact on UK businesses or operations involving contracts Goods by Inland Waterways for the carriage of goods by inland waterways, and there are no effects on relations with the three member states seeking authorisation, the Government have chosen The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr John to opt in. Hayes): The Government have decided to opt in to the [HCWS459] proposed Council decision authorising Austria, Belgium and Poland to ratify, or to accede to, the Budapest convention on the contract for the carriage of goods by inland waterways (CMNI). WORK AND PENSIONS The Budapest convention was adopted by the diplomatic conference organised jointly by the Central Commission for the Navigation of the Rhine and the Danube Commission in collaboration with the United Nations Employment Support Economic Commission for Europe. It entered into force on 1 April 2005, and is intended to harmonise contractual and navigational standards on inland waterways in The Minister for Disabled People (Mr Mark Harper): European countries. The UK is not a contracting party Today I am pleased to announce the outcome of the to the Budapest convention. recent commercial procurement exercise to select providers 125WS Written Statements24 MARCH 2015 Written Statements 126WS for the new specialist employability support contracts, organisations. All six specialist employability support providers the new provision which replaces the residential training will offer both support options. college contracts. The six successful bidders were: Funding will be maintained at the current level, but Pan disability will help more than double the current number of Shaw Trust disabled people and comprehensively improve the Remploy geographic availability and accessibility of intensive Kennedy Scott support. Steps to Employment Specialist employability support is an innovative new Visual impairment programme that will focus on helping those disabled people who need the most support either to enter work Royal National College for the Blind or to move closer to the labour market and engage in Hearing impairment further employment related courses or activities. Doncaster Deaf Trust Specialist employability support will offer intensive, The new provision will go live on 1 September 2015. specialist support to disabled people, provided by a There was strong competition for each of the contracts network of more than 70 specialist organisations throughout on offer, with bids showing real innovation and flexibility. the country. The majority of the current residential training colleges This new provision will ensure that high quality, were involved in successful tenders to continue to provide intensive support is accessible to twice as many people support under the new provision. than under current contracts, with the annual number DWP has consistently engaged with the existing of customers helped increasing from around 800 to up contractors to prepare them for the tendering process to 1,700. In addition, over the two years of the contract and has developed a range of potential options to we anticipate that the new programme will deliver around support the two residential training colleges currently 1,250 job outcomes, up to two thirds of which will lead offering DWP provision who will not be involved in to sustained employment in the open labour market. delivery of the new provision. The new programme is designed to forge stronger [HCWS464] links with a range of other programmes and will bring together a variety of existing Work Choice and Work Social Security Advisory Committee programme providers, many different specialist voluntary organisations and a number of condition-specific specialists. The Minister for Employment (Esther McVey): My Specialist employability support will be provided through noble Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Work six separate contracts, each providing national coverage and Pensions, Lord Freud, has made the following to ensure that the customer group has the optimum written statement: choice of support. Today, I will publish the outcome of the review of the Four will be “pan disability” contracts, meaning that Social Security Advisory Committee (SSAC). I am pleased support will be provided for people with a wide range of to announce that the Government support the continuation disabilities. Two will be specialist sensory impairment of the committee in its current form. The Department for contracts; one focusing on people whose primary disability Work and Pensions has completed a robust examination of the committee’s functions, delivery arrangements and governance is a visual impairment, the other on supporting people structure. The review was carried out in line with the Cabinet whose primary disability is a hearing impairment. Office’s key principles for reviews of non-departmental public The specialist employability support programme features bodies (NDPB). The SSAC is a cost-effective advisory NDPB two main types of support: whose functions are integral to improving the quality of policy making and of secondary legislation in the Department Specialist employability support—which consists of intensive, for Work and Pensions. I attach a copy of the review report employability support provision, and; to this statement and will place a copy in the Library of the Specialist employability support start back—which is a House. shorter term provision that will help to prepare disabled [HCWS456] people for other support provided by DWP or other 19P Petitions24 MARCH 2015 Petitions 20P

And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Petitions Sir David Amess, Official Report, March 2015; Vol. 594, c. 509.] Tuesday 24 March 2015 [P001452] Observations from the Secretary of State for Education: PRESENTED PETITION We recognise the important role that grammar schools play in the state education system. Last year, all pupils Petition presented to the House but not read on the Floor at Southend High School for Girls and Westcliff High Eligibility of Members to vote on certain issues in the School for Boys gained at least 5 GCSEs at A* to C, House of Commons and 99% of pupils at Southend High School for Boys and Westcliff High School for Girls achieved these The Petition of residents of Aldershot, grades. Declares that the Petitioners believe that when Parliament The petitioners are correct that grammar schools can makes decisions affecting only the people of England or often receive a lower level of funding than other schools England and Wales then those decisions should be in the same area. This is largely because grammar made only by the Members of Parliament elected to schools are less likely than non-selective schools to be represent England or England and Wales. eligible for funding allocated on the basis of low prior The Petitioners therefore request that the House of attainment and deprivation. Commons creates fairness in the devolution settlement We believe it is right that pupils from disadvantaged by ensuring decisions having a separate and distinct backgrounds, and those with low prior attainment, effect on England or England and Wales, are only should attract more funding. The evidence is very clear decided by Members of Parliament elected to represent that economic disadvantage remains strongly associated England or England and Wales. with poorer academic performance. In 2013-14, 36.3% And the Petitioners remain, etc. —[Presented by of pupils entitled to Free School Meals achieved A*to Sir Gerald Howarth.] C grades in English and maths, compared with 62.7% of [P001480] all pupils. It is unacceptable for children’s achievement Petitions in the same terms were presented by at school and success in life to be constrained by economic the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate Mr David disadvantage, and we think it is right, on this basis, that Burrowes [P001481]; the hon. Member for Stevenage we target additional funding to schools with the most Stephen McPartland [P001484]; and the hon. Member deprived pupils. The purpose of low prior attainment for Norwich North Chloe Smith. [P001490] funding is to make sure that as many young people as possible leave school with the right skills to be able to succeed in adult life. It is for this reason that many local OBSERVATIONS authorities choose to target extra funding to pupils who may need additional support in order to develop these skills. EDUCATION The petitioners suggest that their local schools forum Funding for grammar schools in Southend cannot address what they consider to be an unfair funding gap between schools in their area. However, The Petition of grammar school pupils and their families local authorities decide how to distribute funding between in Southend, schools in their area in consultation with their schools Declares that the Petitioners are concerned that the forum and according to their assessment of local need. outstanding grammar schools in Southend are facing The Education Funding Agency publishes all local formulae an urgent funding crisis, as their two and three year on its website, which should allow the petitioners to budget forecasts show that they cannot cover the costs compare the proportions of funding allocated to deprivation of all of their lessons; further that the Petitioners believe by different local authorities, if they wish to do so. that many successful schools across the country, including The petitioners may be interested to note that the the grammar schools in Southend, have long accepted a revised School Admissions Code, which came into force lower rate of funding while other secondary schools in on 19 December, has made it easier for all schools, the same area receive 50% more per pupil per year; including grammar schools, to give priority to disadvantaged further that the Petitioners are concerned that the local children in their admission arrangements. This provides Schools’ Funding Forum cannot close this gap and that grammar schools with a practical means for supporting successful schools such as the grammar schools in Southend disadvantaged children; and would of course mean that are facing the worst cuts; further that the Petitioners these schools become eligible for the pupil premium recognise the fact that their schools have reduced staffing funding which these students attract. to the minimum, have stopped replacing equipment, while at the same time increasing class sizes and reducing the number of subjects taught; and lastly that the Petitioners believe that there is nothing left to cut. The Petitioners therefore urge the House of Commons HOME DEPARTMENT to request that the Department for Education addresses the funding discrepancy between grammar schools and Closure of Dudley Police Station to the public other secondary schools to ensure that the funding The Petition of residents of the Dudley North constituency, system does not discriminate against some of the best performing schools in the country and some of the Declares that the Petitioners are opposed to the proposal most ambitious pupils who wish to take up extra subjects. to close Dudley Police Station to the public. 21P Petitions24 MARCH 2015 Petitions 22P

The Petitioners therefore request that the House of military personnel who die on a military base in a Commons urges the Government to make resources non-combat role should be heard by a jury; further that available to keep Dudley Police Station open to the the investigation of sudden deaths in military service public. must be subject to the same protection as that which is And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by available for similar investigations into deaths in a prison Ian Austin, Official Report, 10 March 2015; Vol. 594, or police station; and further that an e-petition on this c. 268.] subject has been signed by 3072 individuals. [P001449] The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to enact a legislative Observations from the Secretary of State for the Home requirement for an inquest to be held before a jury when Department: serving military personnel die on a military base in a Decisions about the most effective use of available non-combat role resources, including the numbers and operating hours of police stations, are a matter for the Police and Crime And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Commissioner and Chief Constable locally, tailored to Mr Michael McCann, Official Report, 20 January 2015; the needs of the local community. Vol. 591, c. 187.] It is important not to confuse buildings with the [P001420] availability and accessibility of the police. There are many good examples of forces finding new ways to Observations from the Secretary of State for Justice: engage with the public. By making savings through The Ministry of Justice has responsibility for coroner police station closures they are able to prioritise front-line legislation, including that which governs inquests into policing and new ways of working. the deaths of service personnel. We remain indebted These include the non-emergency number 101, which and deeply grateful to service personnel for their courage was introduced in December 2011 and now receives and determination on behalf of us all. over 2.5 million calls each month. Forces are also exploring The coroner reforms in the Coroners and Justice Act how mobile technology, the internet and digital capabilities 2009 (the 2009 Act), implemented in 2013, aimed to can open up new opportunities for public engagement. improve all bereaved people’s experience of coroner The way people prefer to access public services is changing. investigations, whether they are service families or otherwise. Over 70% of us bought goods and services online last Under the 2009 Act a coroner must normally hold an year (Office for National Statistics 2014) and an increasingly inquest without a jury. However a coroner must hold tech-savvy public expect more from their interactions an inquest with a jury if: with public services. The Government are working with Surrey and Sussex the deceased died in state detention or custody and the death was violent or unnatural or the cause of death is unknown; Police to develop a prototype for people to report non-emergency crime online through www.Police.uk. the death resulted from an act or omission by a police officer or This will give victims greater choice over how they member of the armed forces executing their duties; or report issues to the police. the death was caused by a notifiable accident, poisoning or Technology also has the power to transform policing disease. by allowing officers easy and digestible access to information We see the jury requirement as primarily applicable on mobile devices, so they can make effective decisions to deaths in which the state may have been involved. We out on the street without having to waste time returning believe that this would not normally be the position for to the station and searching on multiple systems. service personnel who are on a military base but not on In summary, the Government recognise that the public active service at the time of their death from natural want a range of ways to contact the police, and they causes or an event separate from their service role. want these to be better, quicker and more responsive. The 2009 Act does, however, give coroners discretion All forces need to look at the way frontline services are to hold any inquest with a jury where they decide that delivered to ensure that the quality of service provided there is sufficient reason to do so. In some circumstances is maintained or improved. The effectiveness of a police this could cover the death of a service person on a force depends on how well the resources available are military base who was not on active service. used. I appreciate that bereaved people may understandably have many questions and worries, both about a death itself and the coroner’s investigation. For that reason I JUSTICE published in February 2014 the “Guide to Coroner Inquests into deaths of military personnel Services” http://www.gov.uk/government/publications/ guide-to-coroner-services-and-coroner-investigations- The Petition of Susan Fleeting, a-short-guide. The guide aims to set out what bereaved Declares that the Ministry of Defence should come people can expect from a coroner’s investigation, and under the same rules and regulations as other government how they can participate and includes advice on raising departments; further that inquests relating to serving questions or concerns. ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 24 March 2015

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 1284 DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 1271 Bribery Act ...... 1290 Constitutional and Political Reform ...... 1277 Child Sexual Abuse...... 1285 Devolution: England...... 1273 Domestic Abuse...... 1290 Devolution: South-West...... 1276 Human Rights: Domestic and International Individual Electoral Registration ...... 1274 Obligations ...... 1287 Northern Futures Project...... 1271 Pro Bono Work ...... 1289 Topical Questions ...... 1277 Stalking: Prosecutions...... 1284 Vulnerable Witnesses...... 1289 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Tuesday 24 March 2015

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 111WS ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 118WS Adult Vocational Education...... 111WS International Investments ...... 118WS Companies House: Public Targets...... 111WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 119WS British Indian Ocean Territory: Resettlement...... 122WS CABINET OFFICE...... 112WS Foreign Affairs Council and General Affairs Public Data Principles...... 112WS Council ...... 119WS Security and Intelligence Agencies: Contingencies Fund Advance ...... 113WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 122WS National DNA Database: Ethics Group Annual CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 114WS Report...... 122WS Analogue Commercial Radio Licence Renewals .... 114WS Passport Office: Annual Report ...... 122WS TRANSPORT ...... 123WS DEFENCE...... 115WS Budapest Convention on Contract for Carriage of Independent Medical Expert Group: Triennial Goods by Inland Waterways ...... 123WS Review ...... 117WS Crossrail 2 Safeguarding Consultation Response ... 123WS Logistics Commodities and Services Transformation Programme...... 115WS TREASURY ...... 113WS Service Complains Commissioner: Annual ECOFIN...... 113WS Report...... 117WS Finance Bill...... 114WS Veterans Advisory and Pensions Committees: Triennial Review ...... 118WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 124WS Welfare and Duty of Care in Armed Forces Initial Employment Support...... 124WS Training: Ofsted Report ...... 116WS Social Security Advisory Committee...... 126WS PETITIONS

Tuesday 24 March 2015

Col. No. Col. No. PRESENTED PETITION ...... 19P HOME DEPARTMENT...... 20P Eligibility of Members to vote on certain issues Closure of Dudley Police Station to the public ...... 20P in the House of Commons ...... 19P EDUCATION...... 19P JUSTICE...... 21P Funding for grammar schools in Southend...... 19P Inquests into deaths of military personnel ...... 21P Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 24 March 2015

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 1271] [see index inside back page] Deputy Prime Minister Attorney-General

Rural Payments Agency: Basic Payment Scheme [Col. 1293] Answer to urgent Question—(George Eustice)

Falkland Islands Defence Review [Col. 1302] Statement—(Michael Fallon)

Cyber-security [Col. 1314] Statement—(Mr Maude)

Schools (Opportunity to Study for Qualifications) [Col. 1324] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Chris Skidmore)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Recall of MPs Bill [Col. 1334] Lords amendments considered

Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill [Col. 1341] Lords amendments considered

Section 5 of the European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 [Col. 1364] Motion—(Mr Gauke)—on a Division, agreed to

Counter-terrorism [Col. 1375] Motion—(James Brokenshire)—agreed to

Petitions [Col. 1393]

Lesser-taught languages [Col. 1398] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Commonwealth Day [Col. 411WH] Kettering General Hospital [Col. 433WH] Vaccine Damage Payments Act [Col. 441WH] The Shrewsbury 24 [Col. 463WH] Property Taxes in London [Col. 472WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 111WS]

Petitions [Col. 19P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http//www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]