Transcript of a discussion with Graham Tucker on 7th March 2017.

Interviewed by Maureen McKenzie

Maureen: How long have you lived in Gawler?

Graham: I came to Gawler in 1990 so that would make this the 27th year.

Maureen: and in that time what have you seen as far as the changes in Gawler?

Graham: Changes have been fairly dramatic, particularly the population. The population has increased considerably in those years. A lot of new areas have been opened up to housing .. one very close to where I am here with the new housing settlement out at the end of Carlton Road. So that is one of the most dramatic things. Since I came here I've retired and I joined the Gawler Visitor Centre as a volunteer. Later on I joined the National Trust as a volunteer in their museum.

Maureen: And you personally...When you first came here you said you retired. What was your occupation?

Graham: I was a Salesman in the Merchandise department of Elder Smith & Co. and I was with them for something like 37 years I think.

Maureen: And where were they situated?

Graham: I didn't work in Gawler. My last branch was the store at Cavan but in between I'd been to Penola, Mt Gambier, Gladstone, … then I shifted from Gladstone … went back to live in Modbury where I stayed for 28 years. And I had various positions with Elders over the next 30 odd years. I was in the Machinery Department.

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Maureen: What did that entail?

Graham: We had quite a range of reasonably heavy farm machinery in those days. Eventually for some reason or other we got out of it but we had quite a good range. We had scrub rakes, .. of course scrub rakes became illegal eventually for the clearing of scrub was banned … but we sold one that was made in Western Australia. Pedrick Scrub Rake. We sold hay baling equipment but one of the major products we had was a wide line cultivator and it was one of the first wide line cultivators to come on the market. To look at them they weren’t much different to a harrow bar but they were designed for relatively light cultivating … and very efficient at it and, quite amazingly, the size and width of cultivating ranged from 27 feet to 45 feet wide. I think we sold one 45 footer and that was over at Kimba on the west coast.

Maureen: Okay,

Graham: From that I went into.... Elders hardware division. Elders started up two hardware divisions. One was the inner city and suburbs. That was called Elders Building Supplies, and the one I went into was called Elders Industrial Merchandise, and we went into country areas and we actually opened up the hardware stores at Mildura, Murray Bridge, Naracoorte, Mt Gambier and Pt Lincoln. This was quite a new venture for Elders and it came about because Elders got a new General Manager in John Elliot and he came here with some bright ideas.

Maureen: What else did you get involved in, in the Gawler area?

Graham: In the Gawler area since I've been here and involved with both Visitors Centre and the Museum, one of the things I started off at the Visitors Centre was doing Town walking Tours. When we had a group of people that wanted to have a good look around the town I would take them for a wander around .. about a three or four kilometre walk around the Town. And then we started to get a number of bus services looking for a guide to go on the buses and so I started doing that. I've done some for the museum also .. but they were quite interesting…the walks. Had to give that up in the end because of a funny thing called sciatica. Came upon me.

Maureen: That'll stop you (laughing)

Graham: Stopped me in my tracks … but I still do the odd one … particularly for the museum.

Maureen: When you think back say back to the 1990’s what would you say was a dramatic change in this neighbourhood?

Graham: I’ve got to stop and think about that … in the neighbourhood or .....

Maureen: Well just in Gawler I suppose?

Graham: In Gawler itself there’s never been any dramatic changes. In Gawler there always been steady slow something going to happen … and eventually it happens … we don’t seem to be in a situation where all of a sudden something totally dramatic comes upon us … life changes something we hadn’t expected. It has been steady change. I suppose one of the dramatic changes was the work that was done on Murray Street widening the footpaths, narrowing of the roads, cutting out any

07 Mar 2017_GOHP-Graham Tucker/MMK Page 2 heavy traffic in the main street, and shoving it around the back streets. That’s probably one of the significant things that I can think that has happened here … and I won’t say always with my full blessing … but people with more brains than I do think of these things I’m afraid.

Maureen: Have you ever sat on Council?

Graham: No the previous Mayor, Brian Sambell, tried to talk me into once but he didn’t get very far with that I’m afraid. I did contemplate it for a little short while but, no, I’ve never sat on Council. I won’t say I’m sorry I didn’t.

Maureen: Have you any stories that you could tell us of your time in Gawler that stick in your mind?

Graham: I could tell you a lot about Brian Sambell.

Maureen: (Lots of laughter) we have to be careful.

Graham: I went to England with him eighteen months ago and we had a really good trip. Isn’t that nice Brian. I said something nice about him.

Maureen: Can you think of any historical things you have been part of as far as Gawler goes?

Graham: Many of the historical things have been when I’ve got involved with and had to learn about to be able to do the tours of the town. I’ve also done several historical features during what they call the History Month of May where I’ve either done bus tours, historical bus tours, or some walking tours and so forth. Last year for example we did five cemeteries and that included the two little German Cemeteries out on the Two Wells road … Loos and Buchfelde … and to do those I had to research all the people that were buried out there. And their story … those particular people were known as either the 48ers or the 49ers. 48 was the year they got involved in a revolution back home in Germany..

Maureen: This was 1948?

Graham: No, 1848. They got into trouble with the authorities there .. and they were going to be in all sorts of trouble .. and a fellow by the name of Leopald Buch helped them to escape … and quite a number of them .. and they got on a ship and came to Australia. Hence the name of Buchfelde. So it was named after him … Mr Busch’s field. Loos is only about a kilometre away from it … and that was another group that came a little later. And in each case one of the first to arrive became, at that stage, the Lutheran Pastor for that area … and so Otto Schomburgk at Buchsfelde … and later on was Mr Roediger. I’ve forgotten his Christian name but it doesn’t matter. He was the Pastor at Loos. So those sorts of things tend to make a reasonably good story when you have got a group of people who want to know about a place. The other cemeteries we did here were the Anglican cemetery, the Willaston cemetery, and also a visit to Pioneer Park which was the first cemetery in Gawler. Mainly that is how I got involved with the History of Gawler .. from having to swat up on things when I did tours. We’ve done tours on big John McKinlay. And again that was another one of interest as much as for me as the people I’m taking around.

Maureen: So you could tell me a bit about Oakden House?

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Graham: A little

Maureen: Oakden estate which we live in front of it

Graham: Oaklands

Maureen: Oh, Its called Oaklands is it up on Dawes Road?

Graham: That’s right up on Dawes Road

Maureen: Well we are on McKinlay and we’ve got a photograph of John McKinlay in front of the house

Graham: With some other people and the wooden tree stump there which is shaped like a dog? Yes that place was built somewhere around about 1869 for, not for John McKinlay, but for James Pile. McKinlay and Pile had become acquainted across the border in . Pile was looking for some land over there and McKinlay was able to find the land that he wanted. And I guess about that stage probably old James had his daughter with him and they must have nodded each other and eventually …. after McKinlay had been involved with the Burke and Wills relief party….. he came back here to Gawler and married Jane and he then lived in Oaklands. In later years Oaklands changed hands and there were two brothers in there that, apparently, the story goes they didn’t get on with each other and they actually divided the house down the centre. You live in that half and I’ll live in this half … and as a result of that …. if you look at it today it has been permanently divided down the centre and it is now on two separate titles. A lovely old place.

Maureen: The old lady just passed away.

Graham: Oh right, so that’s about all I could tell you about it.

Maureen: That’s interesting. Yes we’ve been talking to the family because there is a tree there that we would like to see disappear (Laughter).

Graham: I mean again we trundle around there and I stick my nose in the driveway … and I show people the house … we discuss it … presumably the same people are in the southern side of it that were there and have been there a few years. The lady there was always quite accommodating for us bring a bus in.

Maureen: That’s on the Oaklands part

Graham: Yes

Maureen: Dawes road, the other lady that lived there was visually impaired and so she very much kept to herself. Yes, …. we just like Gawler with all the significant areas and the historical side. What other places are of interest here in Gawler do you think to others.

Graham: With the walking tour …. the most interesting part of that was Church Hill…Cowan Street. When Col Light came here with his partner Mr.....starts with an F.....…. anyway they determined that area was going to be the main street of Gawler…. Church Hill. Now there seems to be a thought

07 Mar 2017_GOHP-Graham Tucker/MMK Page 4 when people move into a new area the newcomers all lived in the main street …. so in the 1840’s there were many houses built in the main street or what was going to be the main street. I’m sorry, but then that didn’t take into account the fact that copper was going to be found up at Burra and Kapunda … and the bullockies had to start bringing that down and carting that down to Pt Adelaide. And they would come to the North Para River and low and behold there was a ford … they’ d go straight south to the South Para River and bless me there was another ford …. so they kept running them back and forth between those. And by this time, prior to that happening, someone had built a pub … The Old Spot Hotel …. and eventually people would start building commercial premises on these cart tracks that were being made. So that became the main street and Cowan street reverted back to just a residential street … which is just as well cause its virtually a dead end …. you can’t go anywhere on it. So that’s where there are just so many … and not just in Cowan Street … there’s a whole block down there goes..... covers probably five or six different streets … but all lovely old 1840’s style houses … quite interesting for people to look at. Then add to the fact there are five churches, three still operating and two others, five churches in that area. Of course that’s what gives it the name of Church Hill. So that’s probably one of the most interesting parts of Gawler to take people … to tell them about the history of the town.

Maureen: What about…… my understanding was that Gawler was quite involved in the Ironmonger industry?

Graham: Well with four foundries in the town ….. of course going back and starting off with James Martin. He arrived in Gawler in 1848 on almost the seat out of his pants you know. He didn’t have a lot going but he had some tools and with those tools he started up a small business. He had some bits n pieces that he could make a lathe with. So he acquired a river red gum which he had managed to chop down and form a framework of a lathe, and then used the pieces he had brought with him and, before very long, he was on the way to starting the Phoenix Foundry.

Maureen: whereabouts was that?

Graham: The Phoenix foundry is on the corner of High Street and Calton Road. Eventually that became 19 acres of central Gawler land …. some of it dribbled over into Murray street …. even where OPSM is today …. that was the office. So you know there was a lot of it. Probably 5 years ago the property was sold for redevelopment. When it was sold it was declared to be 3 point something hectares ….. let’s say 7 acres. All the other 12 acres have all gone into commercial premises or been deleted. They had to keep the façade, which is quite normal, and of course now it’s a three story car park and Target.

Maureen: Oh, right

Graham: or .. probably because we’re living in Gawler… call it by its proper name … “Tarjay”! Maureen: Yes .. Tarjay … that’s quite significant.

Graham: That was only one of the four families. When he started … he was starting off by making farm machinery …. and he made farm machinery. Gawler by 1848 was already showing signs of being a good grain growing area. There were no ploughs or anything being brought in from England

07 Mar 2017_GOHP-Graham Tucker/MMK Page 5 because most of the people coming in on the sailing ships were bringing their own personal belongings. Somebody had to make them … so he started making the farm machinery. In the mid 1880’s he got his first contract to make 59 steam locomotives. Eventually he made over 150 of them. When he got that contract …. Frederick and Alfred May, the brothers, decided to pull out of the company because Frederick had always wanted his own foundry. He formed May Brothers, and the two of them went down near the Gawler railway station and they set up their foundry down there. Now they couldn’t have been luckier because, virtually just after they started, South Mine came on the scene. They wanted big dewatering pumps. They wanted winding gears to get the men down the mine and product up, and the May brothers got contracts for that and got contracts from all over Australia for mining equipment. Frederick May was an absolute genius …. so that was those two. Initially Frederick May lived in Lyndoch Road directly opposite the Lutheran school. Lovely house there now with a brush fence and that was called Euck House. When they went down near to the railway station he then bought a house down there called Sunnybrae ….. a mere 17 rooms … just a little shack … and he lived down there. Alfred May purchased the home of Mr Wincey, the one time Mayor of Gawler, called Tortola House which is opposite what is now the Uniting Church. …… a big two storey place there and he lived there.

Maureen: In Tod Street?

Graham: In Tod Street.

Maureen: So that was the Manse?

Graham: Yes. And when they closed down May brothers in the early 1900’s Alfred sold that building to the Church. He got an evaluation on it of 4,000pounds and sold it to the Church for a thousand pounds …. and it became the Manse …. and it is back in private hands again now. Tortola House … an interesting thing with that if you want some History of Gawler …. Mr Wincey, who was the Mayor, bought the little bungalow to the east of Tortola house behind Tortola House ….. and then he built the two storey place on the front of it. The bricks he used there, the red bricks, I believe came from Gawler and were made here. The white bricks actually came out as ballast on sailing ships. But, if you look at the design of it …… its what’s known as Italian that design …. and go back a little bit further on with Mr Wincey ….. his real name was Da Vinci and he anglicised his name. Hence the Italian design on the house, and the name Tortola came from the place in the West Indies where his grandmother came from.

Maureen: It has a wonderful fountain out the front.

Graham: Yes it has. It used to have ….. I think they called it a widows walk up on the roof. Its gone now, but it would have been a great lookout up there in its day. Because everyone built trees and houses and buildings around it… it wouldn’t show up anything now. The only other thing about it … if you ever go down past it … is have a look at the chimneys on the original bungalow. They have all been extended by about 7 or 8 feet …. to take it from the fact that he built a two storey house alongside it ….. they wouldn’t draw, so he had to extend the height of them

Maureen: So he could light it?

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Graham: No. They would have filled the house with smoke.

Maureen: What can you tell me about the Martindale House?

Graham: Martindale was originally the home of a fellow by the name of Emil Thorup. Emil Thorup was the pharmacist in the town. He built the southerly part of it … the square bit at the back … and then James Martins nephew, John Felix Martin, he had the other part built on the front …. the part with the lovely staircase going up …. and the two urns on the top of them. For a while it had a sign in the front saying it was the house of James Martin, former Mayor of Gawler, but that was incorrect. It was John Martin who lived in that house. Interesting thing with the urns …. about three years ago there was a report in that the urns were stolen, and one of the members of the National Trust lives in a house that was built on part of the block that was originally Euck House. In the backyard was a fishpond. He was cleaning it out one day and in it he found an urn. It was obviously the urn that May brothers had acquired from Canada from which they made copies. Two of the copies went to Martindale ….. so when they were stolen he offered Martindale his original which was pretty rusty.

Maureen: Yes it pretty much would be

Graham: They welcomed that, took it away and cast two new ones from it …… and when they brought it back it was like new ….. they tissied it all and painted it.

Maureen; that’s the original one you’re talking about

Graham: The original.

Maureen: They gave him back the original one in better condition than he gave it to them?

Graham: Yes. One other thing I didn’t finish with …. and then I’ll go with the significant houses. The two other foundries in the town …. one was Britannia Foundry which was on Barnet road, and the other one was the Eagle foundry which was on King Street down near the Caravan Park. Both of those specialised in cast iron lace works. There was so much of that around the old houses of Gawler and some of the Hotels ….. and the other thing they made was cultivator points and plough shares. The last foundry to close in Gawler was the Britannia mainly because they made almost identical stuff to what Anders were making out at Freeling. So Anders took that over and ran it for a few years. So that sort of takes care of the four foundries. As a matter of interest James Martin in the highest peak of his business employed 700 people. There wouldn’t have been much more than 700 blokes in the whole town. May Brothers, in harvest time or prior to harvest when they were making grain equipment, were employing 300 …. and there were roughly 30 in each of the other places so over a thousand Gawler people worked in foundries. There is no industry in Gawler now. There is one piece of Industry ….. and that’s the smallgoods factory ….. and that’s the only bit of industry left within the town of Gawler.

Maureen: Timers are gone too

Graham: Timer left in 74, 78...... 78 opened in 1944 and it ran until 1978. We’ve got a display in the Museum of Timer. A few months ago we decided we would have a reunion of people who worked

07 Mar 2017_GOHP-Graham Tucker/MMK Page 7 there. Now, when you consider it opened in 1944 that give us 56...82 years to last year …. so anyone who started in 44 would be 82 no...they would be 72 plus whatever age they were when they started there and even till 1978 ….. we’re still looking at a considerable amount of time

Maureen: My Mum used to work there

Graham: Well we advertised in the back of the Sunday Mail. A little column there called; “ Can You Help”. A little tiny piece about an inch and a half. We were going to have this thing there ……

Maureen: We didn’t know about it because she would have been there

Graham: …. Ring my phone number and contact me on my email address”. We ended up with … eighty people turned up at the museum …. how the devil we fitted them in I don’t know. In fact there was a thought at one stage where are we going to put them all. Eighty people turned up and most of them either saw that little advert or somebody said; “did you see the advert in the Sunday Mail”. We were quite impressed by that. There have been a couple of people who have come along since saying when the next one is. Keep your eye on the Sunday Mail.

Maureen: Well my mum’s 88

Graham: There’s one photograph on the wall of the museum. Where the display is there was a 136 machinists working in there and there were over 300 people in total working and that’s when they were down at what’s now the workshop of the Holden dealership. Having dropped that one in on you …… the other significant buildings, Walter Duncan’s house out at Para Para …. about 22 rooms that one.....that put poor old Frederic Mays place with his 17 rooms to shame doesn’t it! Beautiful place. It’s got a portico out front, and if you walk in, on each side there is a staircase going up to a landing.

Maureen: Do they still do tours there?

Graham: No .. private house

Maureen: I notice the Coach House out the front.

Graham: When you go up on that landing all the upstairs rooms are entered from that landing, and when you look down you’re looking down on the ballroom....a beautiful set up. Inside there’s been a lot of work for the existing owners and the previous owners to get it at the stage it is now, but it was in quite bad condition for a while there because it had been vacant. Funny little people called vandals seem to takeover things like that.

Maureen: It’s a shame isn’t it?

Graham: Yes... so that’s one. Obviously Frederick Mays houses both Euck house and Sunnybay are worthwhile seeing. There is none of them really open for inspection. There is another nice place. It’s very hard to see the front of it. It’s called Yenda. It actually backs onto Blanch Street and it used to face into Edith Street …. and it was the home of Dr Marny …. and his wife was Eliza Reid the daughter of John Reid …. who lived on the property where we now have the Park ...Clonlea Park.

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And strangely, their two daughters were Edith and Blanch. So they lived between there and because people were subdivided by Edith St and people built houses there you can no longer see it. But going alongside Euck house there’s an L shaped private laneway and you can walk around that … and you can see what was the front of the house from that. At the back of the house, facing on to Blanch Street, there’s two stone buildings there. One of them for a long time was a little school and the other was a bakery. And one of the bakers that was in it, probably towards the end of its existence as a bakery, was an Assender who now have Gawler South Bakery.

Maureen: Oh do they?

Graham: In fact I’m told there’s still a baker’s oven left in that building. I haven’t seen it but I was told it’s still there. So that’s another quite spectacular place ….. and just down the road here, of course, is James Martins old house …. Trevu

Maureen: Is that the one behind the Golden Fleece. What’s that big one?

Graham: The one behind the Golden Fleece is ... I’ll think of it in a minute. It starts with a C. The wall has just been done. That was the home of Dr Popham and Dr Popham used to have a cannon. Now, if you can imagine, back in the days when Dr Popham lived there, there were no big buildings around to block him off ……. and he could see apparently right down towards Pt Adelaide and Outer Harbour …. and when the mail boats came in he would see them and then fire off a cannon.

Maureen: Oh my goodness.

Graham: Can’t think of the name of the other one it starts with a C.....

Maureen: That’s absolutely lovely Graham …. all that information. It’s been very informative for me because we have been living in Gawler for about three years, and that has been very helpful for me. I just think that’s grand. Is there anything else you can think of we could put out there for our listeners.

Graham: There is one of the cheeky things I used to say when I went to James Martins House that’s now a nursing home …. and its called Trevu. And I used to, when I did the bus drives, ….. I apologise for this but James Martin used to be a Cornishman, and he never spelt very well …… Treeview…… but I’m told that it was French “Tre Vu” meaning three views, …… because in its day you could see north, south and west but not to the east and it was in the side of the hill leading up to the rear.

Maureen: and so it was French for three views

Graham: Yes, Trevu..... T.R.E.V.U

Maureen: So it would have had little diphthongs’ over the top

Graham: So how’s that for a bit of useless information.

Maureen: That’s lovely Graham thank you very much for that … yes … I think that will be very interesting for our listeners.

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