RECLAIMING THE REVOLUTIONARY POTENTIAL OF

Hester Eisenstein is the How did you come to write the hook? and so on, in a way I haven't seen previously, particularly in the US. author of the new book It was originally a course in feminist Contemporary Feminist theory which I taught at Barnard Could you briefly outline the structure Thought (Unwin 1984). College lor five years, from 1975 to of the "book ? 1980. It became clear to me that I had She has taught at Yale and It's organised into three parts. Part I is the material for a much larger study. an assessment of the people whom I Barnard College, Col­ It's based on the reading I've been take to be elaborating the position ol umbia University, where doing since I97U. so it's about ten . That's Kale years' worth of reflection. she helped establish Millet t, and the women's studies In that time you've moved from several feminist anthropologists like program. In 1980 she co- America to Australia. Has that Sherry Ortner and Rosaldo. Then I edlted The Future of affected the hook ? took Susan Hutvvnmiller. All those Difference. She now works Yes. I've been very affected by the people, in dilterent ways, are saying as senior equal employ­ Australian feminist milieu, which is that it's basically difference from men that's the source ol women's ment adviser to the NSW very broad in its range - it's very aware ol French, English, American oppression. government. in the last chapter I look at and everybody's stuff. In a sense, it's consciousness-raising which I see as a much more cosmopolitan here than in This interview with her, pivotal movement. !l shifted that locus America. on difference as a form of oppression by Fiona Moore, is For instance, the English only speak to difference as a possible source of reprinted from Tribune. It to the English, and the French to the strength. includes discussion which, French .... but the Australians speak In Part 2 I look at those writers w ho to everybody, and really have quite a tor space reasons, was are saying that female differences clear idea of the difference between edited out of the should, in lact, be celebrated. Tribune different feminist positions. They ask what it is that women article. I was also influenced by the specialise in and shouldn't we put that Australian political climate which is into our politics? Particularly the much further left than in America. capacity to nurture and many ol the Do we have a creative input into that traditional women's values. Thais debate, or are we merely absorbing all people like Jean Baker-M ilier, the these different strands? psychologist. , the poet, I think the creative input is possibly and a whole strand of feminist not in straight feminist theory. It's writing from the early '70s. more in the application of leminisf The last part Part 3 covers the theory and practice. I think the people I really part company with - feminist writing on labour history puts Mary Daly, Susan Griffin. Andrea together the psychological under­ Dworkin. They're talking about an standing of American feminists' work essential femaleness which is superior. and the more traditional labour So. in the debate on . Interview by history approach of Australia and Griffin and Dworkin are saying England. It's quite a creative mix. "Somehow our sexuality is divorced Fiona Moore I think Australian feminism is really from issues o f pow er it's pure. intervening in structures — in trade Women loving women don't unions, in government bureaucracies encounter lhal kind of masochism ..."

50 A u s t r a l i a n L e f t R e v i e w 88 COUNTERPOINT CONTEMPORARY FEMINIST THOUGHT HKSTF.R EtWKTCR

I really think that's off the wall! delighted to produce book alter I wind up saying we really have to book on subjects like dealing with J ’build a new synthesis. We have to anger. That goes right into the j transpose our women-centred vision mainstream of American individual­ and values into the political arena. The cover o l Hester Elsensteln's latest ism, the power of positive thinking, I I've been accused of not saying how b o o k Contemporary Feminist right back to the 1920s, Think right — which is fair enough! Hut I figure Thought. and you'll be rich and lamous! That's that'll have to be a different book. a very strong tradition in American think about thal. But the structure's What 1 was trying to do was open up capitalism; self-improvement. still there, and it reproduces itself. [he debate. Feminism, in a way, has gone right If you look at recent issues of Ms. into that stream, and if you're not magazine, you have to sieve the pages careful you're saying the same things Why don't you consider, or do you, the to find anything now about struggles with the same religious fervour! And way in which marxism or socialist over equal pay or safety in the we're not saying we don't need to feminism has been enriched by (he workplace. change, but that other things need challenges of as a What you find, again and again, is changing, too like laws.distribution political contribution? that what one has to change is one's of resources, education .... Thai's not what I'm writing about. psychology. If only you have your Why did you look exclusively at Partly, I think, because a lot of people head straight, all things will follow. Anyone who is a feminist and has been A merican feminist use of psychology have been writing about it. and that's when there are French and British not my particular expertise. So I in the workplace knows thal this is just not dealing with the issues that arise. feminists who are discussing similar thought I'd like to write this book points about difference in a more about the American radical feminist I don't mean to say it isn't crucial for sophisticated way? tradition, informed by my socialist- women to change. The beginning is with changing yourself and They are arguing that specific feminism. but not taking on that other biological differences, and the debate. strengthening yourself, defining what aoal.s you set yourself and what kinds different significant events of being a You're critical of radical feminism for of reactions you have that you'd like to woman must mean that women will "its consistent emphasis on the fix to find your full strength. develop a different subjectivity. psychological at the expense of the But there are people in society They're not talking about a specific tconomic factors". H hat do you see as besides us, and other structures essence. They do take account of the proper role of psychology in the besides individual psychology. historical and cultural variables. In a construction of feminist theory? way, by analysing American radical ; I'm not throwing psychology out. I Does this emphasis on psychology feminism exclusively, you've chosen think it's been absolutely crucial. But come from the consciousness-raising an easy target. the point I'm making — and it's process? It was just an arbitrary thing, which probably clearer in the American 1 think, in part, it does, although if you was that the shape of the book was to contcxt is that there's a tendency to look at the stuff about CR there were look at a particular set of psychologist problems as a quite some very good articles in the early developments in American feminist deliberate manoeuvre, to take them off days which said " This is not therapy. It theory. the agenda of economic and political has therapeutic value, but the What 1 was trying to say is that, tfction. intention is to strengthen us and to within this American tradition, there On the one hand, we've had this create little cells from which we will are more similarities than you realise. absolutely brilliant dissection of the grow out to make social change". There is a set of assumptions which psychology of femininity and so on. W hat's more to blame is the official grow right out of Firestone and Millett Everyone has to develop that and reception of feminism. Publishers are and into Mary Daly.

Win t e r 1 9 8 4 51 Hester Eisenstein. I m ade a decision nol to take t)n the I think that's shifted. A lot of people Let's look at pornography which, with world. So I really haven't dealt with said, "Hey, isn't that too much of a proposed legislative changes, has the French feminist strand. I think that sacrifice? Isn't there some way ol again become a contentious issue for is worthy of much more detailed study, looking at mothering in a feminist feminists here. [hat whole problem of difference way?" I think it's a very contusing issue. All needs to he developed. I think Adrienne Rich was saying I'm doing is looking at the writings ol that you could separate motherhood With the change from the Griffin and Dworkin. which i think as an institution with the cultural are very interesting, and ! do try to give androgynous idea! to the celebration trappings, from what mothering as a of difference has come a concomitant them credit lor the points they make, female experience might be, without Everybody argues about tree speech change in Ihe way motherhood is all that other shit. dealth with .... and puts the issue ol pornography in She argues that motherhood should the light ol civil liberties and free In the first wave, f irestone said (and a be as freely chosen as any other work speech versus censorship. lot of people agreed with her) that like writing or becoming an airline They say "Yes, hut look at whal there is no way to recuperate pilot. We shouldn't accept those pornography is it is. in fact, a device motherhood for women. II you're dichotomies which are thrust upon us to silence woman". They have quitean going to be a leminist, the whole .... like, il you're a real wom an, you're elaborate cultural argument about weight of the ideology o! motherhood, a m other, and if you're a feminist, how pornography operates as part ola the expectations of nurturing and self- you're not a real woman. cultural ideology, which essentially sacrifice is too heavy baggage. Even if So now we say, "Well, hang on, enforces the notion of women you didn't give away heterosexual sex, who's in charge of saying who the real sexual objects and, by definition you gave away reproducing. women are?" therefore, as subjects.

52 A u s t r a l i a n L e f t R e v ie w I They ask "Whose silence is being socialist feminism, radical feminism, of neo-imperialist effect because protected, whose free speech is being bourgeois feminism. Why is this? feminism is now being shoved down protected?" Ol course, that doesn't What I'm trying to say is that the terms the throats of women in various third resolve any of those issues, have shifted. I wanted to look at world countries in a way that denies I I still find it Very, very hard, and my radical feminism and what had difference. personal view is that 1 w ouldn't put my become of it. Ihe women there are put in an energy into it. 1 think it's a sym ptom , In tlie early 'seventies, feminists said impossible position. They're having to not a cause. I think it's attacking a they were more left than marxists and say, "No, we're not interested in that cultural shadow, rather than asking the SDSniks (Students for western stuff. We're loyal to our what are the material relationships it Democratic Socialism). Robyn traditional culture." They can't very gives rise to? The fact is that women Morgan asserted that feminism was well be proper nationalists and buy LLin make more money taking oft their the true left. Now we have M ary Daly into this very western theoretical clothes than doing other work! The claiming the term radical feminism for system. It's universalizing in the sense crucial thing is power over women's what I would call metaphysical of feminists saying: "Let's you do it like bodies. feminism. That's a very personal, we do it." interior, private quest. / heard the editor of the Indian Why is that so central to feminist She's very elitist. She says she's only feminist journal Manushi talking on theory? interested in the women who radio the other day about the necessity Until we can stop rape from understand her. for third world women to define their happening, how can you talk about This is very different from saying we own priorities. These women may well women being free? The denial of want to build a mass political pose a challenge to the universalising women's entire sexual self- movement, we want to reach all of the western feminist experience. women, which was how we started out. dctermination is the fact that someone Yes, it's very nice the way third world I really wanted to focus on the can take her by force. If someone women are coming out and saying degeneration of the term radical. wants you, you're absolutely "When you talk about all women, I'm trying to m ake the point that it's annihilated as an independent force. you're also talking about us, and this is not so obvious any more what is, or what we think." What kinds of political struggle do you isn't bourgeois feminism. The political think radical feminism has withdrawn spectrum keeps on shilling to the right, You say we need to "reclaim the from? Wasn't the redefinition of what particularly in the US. The Equal revolutionary potential of feminism". is political one o f the priorities of the Rights Amendment seemed a very Do you identify priorities in terms of early feminist movement? tokenist, reformist thing w hich a lot of sites for feminist intervention? people turned their noses up at. Then What I'm pointing out is that, in the I don't presume to tell other people they discovered it had been defeated, US. it's turned into a two-way race where to put their energy. But I would between strands of feminism. One and now they are saying "We'll take it. say that one of the things that is category is women who read Mary Ciive us a little bourgeois feminism!" interesting about the Australian scene Daly and say, "It's true! Affirmative I think we need to be more is that women are, in fact, quietly sophisticated about our use of these action is a reformist waste of time. I intervening in many areas. They're won't dirty my hands with it". terms. It's a fluid situation, attempting to have power in trade So the really pure thing to do is to Zilla Eisenstein, in her book The unions, both at the grassroots level read feminsit theory, form your own Radical future o f Liberal Feminism, and executive level, [ here is some community and try not to intervene in says "Instead of walking around as legislation now, and it's starting to any other structures because the socialist feminists and being holier have some small impact. minute you do, you're tainted. than thou about liberal feminists, let's Women are refusing to be But, if you carry that argument far try lor some liberal goals and see how marginalised, ref using to say "We'll do enough, you couldn't even create far we can get. And see if we can't the women's issues, that'll be Point 94 feminist culture. It's intervening into radicalise people on the way." .... " Som ebody m ade the point what art is, or whatever. You’re very critical of radical recently that, in the old days of trade All the very important practical feminism's universalism. But hasn't unions, the women's issues would interventions of the women's feminism moved away from marxism always be negotiable. Like you'd say movement are looked dow n on by because of its own universalism? "This is the log of claims .... Point 92 these theoretically pure people. On the child care and 93 English language 1 think the anger of feminism with other side, there are women making classes for migrants. marxism has to do more with major interventions — in women's And that was the first thing you'd marxism's refusal to encounter ltudics in academia, legal changes, and negotiate away. And we're saying we as a significant category of analysis, action in the political and union do not want to be point 92. We want to except in a very token way. They then arenas. be point No. 1. We want to be at the come back to class and say that it is the All those are very interesting, but centre, we want feminist issues and main event unless the theorists stop being so pure feminist concerns to be on your In terms of universalism, though, 1 and start assessing them, there's a real priority list. would argue that both marxism and split between theory and practice feminism are guilty. They both come which wasn't the way we started out. Fiona Moore is a journalist and from a western philosophical position. works on Tribune. You choose not to use terms like In the current situation this has a kind

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