Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 1 DECEMBER 1960

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

1978 Inspection of Machinery, &c., Bill [ASSEMBLY] Questions

THURSDAY, 1 DECEMBER, 1960

Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. D. E. Nicholson, Murrumba) took the chair at 11 a.m.

QUESTIONS

RAIL MOTORS AND RESTRICTED SCHEDULES, SUNDAY TRAIN SERVICES, METROPOLITAN AREA Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba West­ Leader of the Opposition) asked the Minister for Transport- "(1) In view of the reported decision to substitute rail motors for steam and diesel train services on the metropolitan railways on Sundays and to cut down services by the alteration of schedules, is this a stage in a plan to give Brisbane a virtually trainless Sunday like Mel­ bourne, where the Commissioners amongst other things justify the suspension of services on the ground that this saves money?" "(2) Has he considered the possible loss of revenue from potential passengers through restricted and altered schedules and the laying-off of station staff together with the serious difficulty a rail motor guard would have in collecting fares if he is to keep to time schedules?" Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer) replied- "( I) Examination of the patronage accorded Sunday suburban services has shown the substitution of rail motors for diesel trains and the withdrawal of certain schedules will still permit the requirements of travellers being fully met. There is no foundation at this stage for .the assump­ tion that this is part of a plan to make Sunday a virtually trainless day in Bris­ bane. However, if Railway employees themselves attempt to sabotage an honest effort by the Department to give the pub­ lic a cleaner and more efficient rail service at the week-end, the Department at the same time endeavouring to operate such service more economically, then Railway employees are vittually writing their own epitaph. It could be that the public would then have to accept trainless Sundays as exist in Melbourne, which have been brought about by Railway employees blindly following the advice of Union leaders. In Melbourne, road buses have carried on for several months and no one is worried about a recommencement of Sunday trains except Railway employees who have lost thousands of pounds of Sun­ day pay at penalty rates with little hope of ever reverting to such Sunday employ­ ment." "(2) Consideration has been given all phases of the altered methods. Similar arrangements have operated in other met­ ropolitan areas for some time past without Questions [1 DECEMBER] Questions 1979

the rail motor guard experiencing difficulty VANDALISM AND THEFT, 0AKLEIGH STATE in collecting fares or such duties interfer­ SCHOOL ing with time schedules." Mr. TOOTH (Ashgrove) asked the "I would have thought that with his Minister for Public Works and Local years of experience as Minister in charge Government- of Railways in the previous Labour Gov­ ernment, the Honourable Member would "(!) Has he been advised that on the be as keen as I to see railway revenue evening of Tuesday, November 29, vandals improve and the livelihood and employ­ again entered the Oakleigh State School ment of railwaymen protected-=-rather than and stole a substantial sum of money, becoming virtually a 'railway knocker'." removed part of a new public address system and did considerable damage to other school property?" SUNDAY RAIL SERVICES, FERNY GROVE LINE "(2) Is he aware that this episode is the Mr. LLOYD (Kedron) asked the Minister latest of a series of similar incidents in for Transport- recent months in which school funds have "(1) What is to be the reduced railway been stolen, an entire public address Sunday time-table on the Ferny Grove system also stolen and other outrages line?" perpetrated?" "(2) Which Sunday services are to be "(3) In view of the frequency of these abolished?" incidents and the isolation of the school, will he request his officers to give urgent "(3) In deciding to reduce Sunday ser­ consideration to the remedies suggested in vices on this line, was consideration given to the inadequate Council bus service my speech to this House on November 15 available to residents of Oxford Park, last or to the implementation of some Lower Mitchelton, Gravely and Keperra?" satisfactory alternative plans to combat the activities of the vandals committing these "(4) Will the Department arrange its offences?" Sunday services so that they are stag­ gered in conjunction with the bus Hon. L. H. S. ROBERTS (Whitsunday) service?" replied- Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer) "( I) Yes." replied- "(2) Yes." "(!) The Honourable Gentleman has apparently been misinformed. There is to "(3) It is not in accordance with Govern­ be no reduction in the number of services, ment policy to provide janitors in primary but three services which now run to Ferny schools and funds are not available in the Grove will terminate at Keperra whilst a current estimates for this purpose. It is few of the existing schedules have been recognised that vandalism has become a slightly adjusted without generally deviat­ major community problem. An inspection ing from the present satisfactory time­ will be made urgently with a view to table." devising ways and means of preventing "(2, 3 and 4) See answer to (1)." unauthorised entry to the Oakleigh School grounds and buildings. The Police Depart­ ment will also be requested to arrange TWIN-UNIT DWELLINGS, HOUSING COMMIS­ regular supervision of this school which is SION PROJECT, TROUT'S RoAD, STAFFORD in a comparatively isolated area." Mr. LLOYD (Kedron) asked the Treasurer and Minister for Housing- COOKING UTENSILS FOR CoNDUCTORS ON "Is it a fact that twin-unit dwellings MAIL TRAINS constructed at the Trout's Road Stafford Housing Commission project in Midson Mr. INCH (Burke) asked the Minister for Street for the purpose of accommodating Transport- pensioners have been let to tenants other "(!) Will he equip the conductor's com­ than pensioners? If so, why?" partment on mail trains with a hot plate Hon. T. A. HILEY (Chatsworth) replied- or electric frypan so as to enable these "These dwellings were constructed for employees to provide themselves with a married couples without dependent chil­ hot meal when working trains away from dren and eligible single persons including their home depot?" in both instances pensioners and aged per­ "(2) Is it his considered opinion that sons. They were not constructed exclus­ a fully equipped kitchen at the quarters ively for pensioners. At present the 12 units are occupied by: Old age pensioners, provided for these men, when away from 7 units; invalid pensioners, 1 unit· two sis­ their home depots, consists of a small ters, pensioners, 1 unit; mother a~d daugh­ kettle, frypan, saucepan and one small ter, 1 unit; couples without dependent chil­ gauze hanging safe, in which to store their dren, 2 units:" meat, butter and other perishables?" 1980 Questions [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill

Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer) PAPER replied- The following paper was laid on the table, "(1) Conductors on air-conditioned trains and ordered to be printed:- have numerous responsible duties to per­ form and it is not considered desirable Report of the Queensland Meat Industry that they should prepare hot meals in Board for the year 1959-1960. the compartment set aside for them." "(2) Country railway quarters are only CO-OPERATIVE HOUSING SOCIETIES occupied by the conductors for short ACT AMENDMENT BILL periods and I would remind the Honour­ INITIATION able Member that it was a Labour Govern­ ment that decided that a small gauze Hon. T. A. HILEY (Chatsworth­ hanging safe, a kettle, frypan and saucepan, Treasurer and Minister for Housing) : I were all that was needed to equip a kitchen move- at such railway employees' quarters. How­ "That the House will, at its present ever if the Honourable Member will sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of indicate the particular quarters to which he. the Whole to consider of the desirableness refers I shall have an investigation made of introducing a Bill to amend the as to the adequacy of the facilities provided Co-operative Housing Societies Act of therein." 1958, in certain particulars." Motion agreed to. RAIL FREIGHTS ON COAL FROM BLAIR ATHOL AND KlANGA FACTORIES AND SHOPS BILL Mr. DONALD (Ipswich East) asked the Minister for Transport- THIRD READING "(!) What is the freight charge per ton Bill, on motion of Mr. Morris, read a per mile for the haulage of coal from Blair third time. Athol to Rockhampton?" "(2) What is the freight charge per ton INSPECTION OF SCAFFOLDING ACTS per mile for the haulage of coal from AMENDMENT BILL Kianga to Gladstone?" THIRD READING Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer) Bill, on motion of Mr. Morris, read a replied- third time. "( I) 2.92 pence, in truck loads, inclusive of all charges." INSPECTION OF MACHINERY ACTS "(2) 2.08 pence, in train load lots of a AMENDMENT BILL minimum of 400 tons per train, plus charges which may arise during loading THIRD READING operations at Kianga." Bill, on motion of Mr. Morris, read a third time. SULPHUR CONTENT OF COAL AND COKE STATE TRANSPORT BILL Dr. DELAMOTHE (Bowen) asked the Minister for Development, Mines, Main SECOND READING Roads and Electricity- Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ "(!) What is the sulphur content of (a) Minister for Transport) (11.17 a.m.): I the Bowen Seam and (b) the B!ake Seam move- in the Collinsville area?" "That the Bill be now read a second "(2) What is the sulphur content of the time." coke manufactured at the State Coke When introducing the Bill, I endeavoured Works, Bowen?" to give hon. members a fairly comprehensive outline of the legislation the Government "(3) What is the maximum sulphur desire to place on the statute book. It content of coke for use in iron smelting?" was brought about only after several months Hon. E. EVANS (Mirani) replied- of careful consideration, after we had secured considerable legal advice and when "(1) (a) 1.4 per centum. (b) 0.8 per it became apparent to us that there was a centum-The Blake Seam is a non-coking responsibility that the Government must coal." accept and a responsibility of great import­ "(2) 1.1 per centum." ance to the furtherance of transport in Queensland. As I dealt with the provisions "(3) This is determined by the steelworks so fully then, I do not propose to take up but various steelworks have indicated that the time of the House this morning. I Bowen coke is not acceptable." realise that members of · the Opposition, State Transport Bill [1 DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 1981 having bad an opportunity to peruse the Bill speech that I could not blame the EBASCO in detail, will raise matters on it and I report for the fiasco. In fact, I have taken will have an opportunity to reply. the trouble to communicate with people in New South Wales since the Bill was intro­ Taken by and large, the Bill has been duced, and my views on that have been :r:ein­ favourably received by most of the people forced by the information I have received of the State. It is true that I have had from those authorities in New South Wales some approaches about certain clauses and regarding the fiasco that followed the I will avail myself of the opportunity in EBASCO reporL All the m~n who have t~e Committee to reply to some of the state­ responsibility of operating rmlway systems m ments that have been made and to some Australia have grown up with the systems. of the approaches I have received. On the Our railway system is peculiar to Australia other hand, I have had many letters of because of its large and sparsely populated commendation from people in the remote area and its extensive seaboard. Obviously, parts of Queensland. They have said that our problems are entirely different from those at last the Government are introducing legis­ of the more densely populated countries of lation that should have been brought in the world. many years ago, legislation that will enable all people in the State to be given a fair I said that I did not have any faith in deal in transport. So I am pleased with this measure because it seemed to me to be the general reception of the Bill. premature to introduce a Transport Bill if the Government were not certain what course We are aware of moves that are being they should follow in an attempt to solve made in certain quarters concerning Clause these problems. They were going to spend 53, and no doubt arguments in support of £100 000 for the services of a firm of over­ them will be peddled today by some members seas ~onsultants before they knew what they opposite. I will have an opportunity to reply were going to do, and, contemporaneously to them later, so I shall content myself at with this announcement, the Railway Depart­ this stage with listening to the Opposition's ment was working internally on extensive pro­ views on the Bill. posals to close branch lines in Queensland. Obviously, the Minister does not nee~ that Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomb~ West­ outside staff, because he has officers m the Leader of the Opposition) (11.20 a.m.): Thi~ department with the knowledge to enab~e Bill occupied, as somebody said by way o{ them to examine and report whether certam interjection a few moments ago, a good branch lines should be maintained or not. deal of the attention of the House last week when it was introduced. Its introduction was Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I hope the hon. obviously stage-managed, because the Minis­ member is not going to develop his argument ter had arranged for the release of extensive on the railways. The railways do not come Press reports throughout the State dealing into the Transport Bill. with the terms of the Bill and its operation. Generally speaking, it was a stage-managed Mr. DUGGAN: No-- attempt to indicate to the public at large that the Government were going to do some­ Mr. WALSH: I rise to a point of order. thing for transport operations, whether by I do not think the Minister will deny that road, rail, or sea, that would be beneficial to this Bill contains some provisions for co­ the community. ordinated services. A study of the Bill discloses that there is Mr. Chalk: Not in the Bill. no reason for complacency, that there is no justification for the Minister's saying that it Mr. W ALSH: The Minister may try to has been favourably received. I have received argue, but co-ordinated services are ~ti!l to a number of telegrams, phone calls, and letters, be maintained under the transport admm1stra­ and I have received deputations from people tion of this State. who have had the opportunity of reading the Bill. They are alarmed at some of its Mr. SPEAKER: Hon. members may discuss provisions. railways to a certain point in dealing with the effect that road transport will have on When I raised the matter of the Minister's them, but a general discussion on railway~ announcement of the decision to appoint a will not be permitted. firm of American consultants to investigate the railways, I said it was an attempt to Mr. DUGGAN: I will keep within your withdraw any bite that the Opposition might ruling, Mr. Speaker. At this stage I have in their criticism of transport generally. indicate to the House that it is proposed to I pointed out that I had no faith in the move an amendment to omit the word "now" decision, and that I thought there was no and add the words "this day 12 months justification for the expenditure of £100,000 pending the appointment ~f .a roya~ co~­ on an examination of the Railway Depart­ mission", such royal commiSSion to mvestt­ ment. The Minister thought that was a gate charges made at the initiation stage by very smart move on his part. I stated that the me, and supported by influential members in EBASCO report in New South Wales, which both the A.L.P. and the Q.L.P. Those was submitted three or four years ago, had charges have not been answered. not produced the results that the Minister claimed, and later the Minister said in his Mr. Nicklin: What is your amendment? 1982 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill

Mr. DUGGAN: That the Bill be read a Assembly's time in trying to justify his second time 12 months hence pending the action. That has been the general attitude appointment of a royal commission with of members of the Government Party no the terms of inquiry that I conveyed in my matter how serious the charges might have speech at the initiation stage. Those charges been. They shrug their shoulders and think have remained unanswered. that it will be only a nine-day wonder, that everything will be forgotten, and that they Mr. Nicldin: What terms are they? can proceed in their complacent manner. Mr. DUGGAN: I shall read them. We are not happy about the position at all. In our opinion the State Transport Bill Mr. Nicklin: It is usual when you move an will not achieve the results that have been amendment of this nature-- expected of it. There was a lot of implied criticism by the Minister although it was Mr. DUGGAN: I indicated at the initia­ not directed at me personally in the sense tion stage that we would be pressing for a that I had done anything wrong in my Royal Commission but time prevented me capacity of Minister for Transport. He said, from taking the matter further then. I have in fact, that he was aware of the numerous good reasons for asking that the second practices that had flourished and that they reading of the Bill should be deferred for had been carried out with my approval and 12 months. It is not necessary for me to authority. read all the details because they are already in "Hansard." The Premier has five public Mr. Chalk: I did not say that. I did not relations personnel. He has had ample time. say it was done with your approval. He should not try to tell me that he has not Mr. DUGGAN: The Minister mentioned had the time or the facilities for knowing the rackets that were going on. what the terms of reference are. Mr. Chalk: Yes, and you knew of them. Let me deal firstly with the allegations that have been made from this side of the Mr. DUGGAN: If there was no implied House. Whenever we make serious charges criticism I should like now to refresh the the Government have a tendency to merely minds of hon. members on some of the things shrug their shoulders, and in the course of the Minister and ·the Premier had to say a long debate direct some minor criticism at about my administration as Minister for me or some other hon. member on this side. Transport. This is what they had to say in They take great glee and joy in trying to 1951 when the State Transport Facilities Act dismiss the allegations on the basis that Amendment Bill was being introduced. In somebody said something whereby a criticism "Hansard" No. 200 at p. 1868 the Premier can be levelled against me. For example, had this to say- when the Deputy Leader of the Opposition "It is refreshing to note that . . . par­ drew attention to the operations of Crisp ticularly during the administration of the Transport in Stanthorpe, and sought certain present Minister and the administration information, the Minister said that this firm of the present Commissioner there has was operating under an authority given by been a refreshingly different approach to me in September, 1956. Government mem­ road transport problems. As a result, bers gleefully said, "Your leader is respon­ the wide powers included in the Act have sible for that," and attempted to dismiss all been exercised with great discretion and the other allegations as being of no conse­ without any great hardship towards any quence. When we make charges they say, road transport operator. That is as it "What about your Leader? He did that sort should be." of thing." I asked the Minister by way of On page 1960 of the same "Hansard" interjection whether there was anything the Premier had this to say- wrong in what I did. He said, "No." He " ... there is just one thing I should like agreed with what had been done. The to mention, and that is making consignors Treasurer came in and tried to score off it, and consignees liable for the payment of but again he said that he approved of the transport fees that are not paid by the action that had been taken. The point I want operator of interstate vehicles. to make about the series of charges that have been made is that first of all the Minister "I agree that these vehicles should pay said there was nothing to answer, but it took their just dues, but I do not see why it him almost three hours to reply on behalf of should be the entire responsibility of the the Government. It was probably the long­ consignor or the consignee to meet those est speech that has been made in reply to charges should the truck operator fail to do the debate on the initiation of any Bill in so." the Assembly for many years. The same Mr. Chalk: What year was that? pattern has been followed in other direc­ tions. When the hon. member for South Mr. DUGGAN: 1951. Brisbane asked the Deputy Premier a ques­ Mr. Chalk: That is very important. tion about the use of police facilities for the transmission of a private message the Mr. DUGGAN: He went on- Minister said that the question could be very "I do not agree with the proposal to effectively replied to by saying, "No. No. bring the transport of milk under the No.", but he then took up 25 minutes of the operations of the Bill." State Transport Bill [1 DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 1983

I will not go any further with that quotation. encourage these people to bring these goods The point is that the Premier admitted that to Queensland. That is the only basis in the Act had been administered fairly and which we can get many of our supplies." with discretion and common sense by me as Mr. Chalk: What year was that? Minister and by the then Commissioner of Transport and the officers under his control. Mr. DUGGAN: I have already told the The Premier then went on to say that he Minister twice. It was in 1951. disagreed with trying to make consignors and consignees pay. Of course, that provision is Mr. Chalk: And I said it was very in this Bill so apparently his views have important, too. not had very much weight with the Minister. Mr. DUGGAN: In the same debate the The Minister has advanced the view that present Minister for Development, Mines, the need to introduce this Bill was brought Main Roads and Electricity had this to say. about by the activities of border-hoppers. It appears at page 2103- This is what he had to say, as a member "The Minister has explained that the of the then Opposition, in the same debate. clause (i.e., dealing with vehicles of local It appears at p. 1889 of "Hansard" - authorities) does not mean anything . . . "The Minister said that he hoped that the that the Commissioner for Transport will be Bill would lead to a speeding up in the reasonable and he will be reasonable. I issue of permits, and I hope he is right ... have to agree that the Commissioner and I know that the Commissioner himself and the Minister are always reasonable. I have his department are doing a very good had many aproaches to them on matters job." affecting transport, and I have found them As a matter of fact, he said this of the splendid." Commissioner later on- I mention those things to show two or three "There seems to be, shall I say, certain points. The first is that the Premier when in red tape that is responsible for this Opposition admitted that the Act had been hindrance and delay of which I complain. administered fairly, equitably and intelligently. I think it may be overcome by giving That was confirmed by the Minister for Deve­ greater authority and more set instructions lopment and we have the admission of to those whose duty it is to deal with Minister for Transport, who is now trying permits in the various cities or centres to shelter behind the operations of interstate where permits are sought. hauliers, that he was in favour of the encour­ "The point I wish to raise particularly is agement of interestate transport. I make these in connection with interstate transport ... preliminary observations as a basis of the I believe that we should do as much as we matter for people who read "Hansard" and can to encourage transport from outside are interested in these things, and to show Queensland to bring essential equipment to that there has not been mounted against the this State." previous administration any cha~ge or sug­ gestion of impropriety or any desire to dodge I shall repeat those remarks- responsibility in handling this admittedly com­ "The point I wish to raise particularly plex and controversial question. is in connection with interstate trans­ The Minister also said in his introductory port . . . I believe that we should do as speech that he admitted that the 1946 Trans­ much as we can to encourage transport port Act was an attempt to strike a fair from outside Queensland to bring essential balance between road, rail, and air transport. equipment to this State. A Labour Government were then in office, "We know that there are materials lying although at that time I was not Minister in the ports in the south and that the for Transport. He admitted it was an railways unfortunately are unable to handle attempt to solve the problem. the goods, and that the position will con­ tinue unless we encourage road transport The Minister went on to say in his intro­ to bring the loading into this State." ductory speech that previously the Minister had the power to confirm or veto the Com­ Then, in the manner of an ardent advocate missioner's decision, but that right would for interstate transport, he went on to say- no longer operate; that that power would "It has been said that road transport, not be given under the Bill. That is a feature particularly heavy transport, tears up the of it that we do not like. If the general roads. I maintain that as long as it pays public and the road operators know that the its contribution provided by law it is Minister has some power in these matters, entitled to use the roads and we shall they know that they have some chance of be wise to encourage them to bring to this having their grievances remedied. But that State the goods that are so urgently needed. it not to be the position. Under the Bill "I am all for interstate road transport so a savage bureaucracy is to be built up, and long as the operators observe the letter of no-one can get at the Commissioner. No the law. We know overloading often takes court has the authority to deal with these place, and the roads of Queensland were matters. That authority is removed by the not built to carry some of the heavy loads Bill. Certain evidence has to be cited, and, that are put on them, but as long as a immediately the evidence is cited or pre­ truck is loaded within its capacity and pays sented, the court has to take cognisance tax in accordance with the law we should of the powers given under the Bill and has 1984 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill to dismiss the application. If the public against a man who has a reputation for knew that the Minister had the right of integrity. If there were any grounds for sug­ veto in these matters they could, if they were gesting otherwise, I am sure action would be sufficiently disturbed or had sufficient ground taken. I have spoken to many people, and I for complaint, exercise some pressure. That have seen Mr. Bolton, I suppose, three times right was exercised at a public meeting of in the last 12 months. Quite a number of protest in Toowoomba. It was attended people were listening from the gallery to the by 600 people, and because of the pressure debate the other night, and they are all exercised by them action was ultimately shocked at the Minister's attitude on these taken to give effect to some of the wishes matters. What was the Minister's attitude? of the people in that area. But more He said this man was cunning and scheming, insidious still, under the Bill the Minister that his word could not be trusted, and that has power to issue some general directions in future no busines firm of any consequence to the Commissioner and they need not be would wish to have any dealings with him. promulgated publicly. The Commissioner Those are very damning indictments of a can still give effect to his own private man who has built up a reputation for decisions and wishes in these matters, and at business efficiency and personal integrity, and the same time shelter behind the bureau­ is well known for his philanthropy. As a cratic shield that is built up as a result of reward for his philanthropic activities it was the provision that the Commissioner for said that he did it only to escape taxation. Transport is obliged to carry out the I wonder what gratuitous insult is being Minister's general directions in these matters, offered to other philanthropists in this State nobody other than the Minister and the for the donations they are making to cultural Commissioner knowing what those directions or charitable organisations. Is it being said are. The Minister attacked Mr. Bolton very that they are doing that to avoid the pay­ strongly and savagely on his attitude to the ment of income tax? If the Commonwealth Bill. I would not like to be in Mr. Bolton's taxing authority thought that, it would not position, knowin& that this campaign of give relief for these donations under its hatred is to be exercised and that there will taxing powers. be no power of compensation or right of appeal against decisions. Mr. Bolton's philanthropic activities are The hon. member for Toowoomba East well known in Toowoomba. Even the Prime challenged people to repeat outside the House Minister of Australia-incidentally a Liberal certain things that were contained in, for Prime Minister-took a step that in my long want of a better term, the dossier that was association with Toowoomba was unpre­ laid on the table of the House. He threat­ cedented. He came to Toowoomba to open ened to take action through his legal the Lionel Lindsay Gallery, and in the pres­ advisers if they were repeated outside. Why ence of many hundreds of people he publicly is it necessary for someone to repeat out­ extolled the philanthropy of this man and side the Chamber the things contained in the very high attitude he has adopted to the dossier, in view of the action taken by preserve a lot of Australiana-art and litera­ the Commissioner. I suggest it was taken ture-that had been lost to this country. The with the authority and full authority of the Prime Minister very rightly commended Mr. Government, because we had an intimation, Bolton for his action in that regard. Every­ signed by the Solicitor-General, that action one knows the extent to which Mr. Bolton for defamation was being taken against Mr. has endowed many organisations-some of Bolton by the Commissioner for Transport them anonymously-yet he is called a cun­ under the terms referred to in the dossier. ning schemer out to build up a mighty finan­ That action was taken not in the Commis­ cial empire-a monopoly-so that he can sioner's private capacity, but in his official develop a transport policy that he thinks is capacity, and the Government are obviously desirable in his own personal, avaricious behind it. If it is good enough for the interests. Government to take action on matters tabled in the Chamber, it will be good enough for I point out that several members of the the hon. member for Toowoomba East. The Opposition-and a former Minister for Trans­ same right accrues to him to take similar port, the hon. member for Bundaberg, by action if he elects to do so. The Govern­ way of interjection, or in his speech-said ment say we are taking advantage of the that if there was a fear in the minds of the privilege of Parliament to voice these Government about a monopoly growing up matters. If that is to be the yardstick to in this State, there was power in the existing measure whether we are entitled to criticise legislation to control it. I concede quite thes~ things, I invite the Minister to say frankly that the legislation allowed these outside the House the things he said inside people, by a process of merger and acquisi­ it about Mr. Bolton. tion, the opportunity to build up a very strong transport monopoly in this State, and He cannot have it both ways. It is no this Government have permitted it to con­ good one Government member talking about tinue. The Minister condemns this man repeating outside this Chamber what is said whom he describes as being in the millionaire in here so that there will be no legal class, making fantastic fortunes, and the immunity, while the Minister gets up and Minister for Public Works and Local Govern­ makes a series of damning statements ment said he was operating under a licence State Transport Bill [1 DECEMBER) State Transport Bill 1985 equivalent to the Mount Morgan gold mine. than previously? No other inference could Will the Minister deny that the Government be drawn from the Minister's full recital have not permitted the transfer or acquisition and from his statements about the inter­ of runs since they have been in power? In locking of companies. my opinion the simple answer is that it has been done. It cannot be denied. If it was Here are the taxation returns and assess­ wrong, there were adequate powers in the ments. For the year ended 30 June, 1954, Mr. Bolton's taxable income was not existing Act to provide for additional licences £120,000 or anything like it. It was £9,414, without any amendment to the Transport Act. on which tax of £4,646 10s. was paid. It would have been quite a simple matter for the Minister to say, "There are only Mr. Chalk: Which company? three licensed operators in Toowoomba; there should be four, five, seven, or 10." Mr. DUGGAN: Cobb & Co. These are That could be applied to any other part of Mr. Bolton's personal returns-and I will the State. There was no need for any amend­ deal with that in case the Minister tries to ment of the existing Transport Act to resist put a smokescreen over it. He made a the creation of monopolies, because adequate great deal about how many shares were held by Mr. Bolton. He enumerated the authority and power existed to apply the number of shares held by him in the various remedy. But the Minister comes here with companies. It does not matter what device a great flourish of trumpets on this Bill. he may have used, whatever income is The Minister did something the other day derived from his holdings in the company that I have never done in all my period as must be indicated in his income-tax returns. a public man. He published the private Mr. Hart: That is not correct. financial affairs of a man's income-tax return, or his profit and loss account. Mr. DUGGAN: Of course it is. How He did that and said that in 1952 he had else would it be done? made a profit of £120,000. I have here Mr: Bolion's letter under date 28 November, Mr. Hart: It would be paid by the which reads as follows:- company. "Enclosed is statement of my taxable Mr. DUGGAN: The Minister spoke of income and income tax assessed for the this man's avariciousness. years ended 30th June, 1954, to 30th June, !960, inclusive. These are supported by Mr. Hart: I was just denying your state­ actual assessments, which are enclosed." ment. And they are here. Any hon. member Mr. DUGGAN: The hon. member may may read them if he wants to. Mr. Bolton attempt to deny it but the Minister said is reluctant to reveal his private affairs, that in one year the income was £120,000. but here are the official assessments from the Income Tax Commissioner. The letter M:r. Chalk interjected. goes on- Mr. DUGGAN: I am not going to be "For many years under the previous sidetracked on this matter. It does not regime, all our figures and costs were matter how Mr. Bolton conducts his busi­ available to responsible officers of the ness, whatever income he derives from it Tmnsport and Treasury Departments. It must be reflected in his income-tax returns. was thought that such would assist them in their duties-both generally and as Mr. Hart: The income of the company to what it cost to run vehicles in a need not be reflected in his personal return. reasonably well-conducted business. It was indicated that records for the current Mr. DUGGAN: Does not that come in as years were available to the Premier and dividends from the company? Treasurer of the present Administration Mr. Hart: The company did not pay for similar purposes, but we have never dividends. received any reply thereon. In any case, the records of Cobb & Co. Limited can Mr. DUGGAN: Someone must put it in. always be perused at the office of the Registrar of Companies by anyone Mr. Hart: Oh yes. interested." Mr. DUGGAN: There was a great deal And what did we have? We had a recital of talk about all the hundreds of thousands about monoplies and about companies build­ of pounds being made. ing up this financial empire of Mr. Bolton's. I asked by way of interjection whether Mr. Hart: You are giving bad law in the there had been any contravention of any House. Queensland law, and the reply I received Mr. Chalk: He has pulled the wool over was that there had been none. If there your eyes for a long time. has been no contravention, why was the matter raised? Was it not to support the Mr. DUGGAN: It is not a question of suggestion that these thousands of pounds putting it over. If the Minister is so sure had been accumulated, that this empire had of his ground and of his law, I invite him to been further consolidated, and that greater say outside the House what he said in here sums of money were being made by him about Mr. Bolton. Let him try to laugh 1986 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill that one off if he is so sure of his ground its various activities, and Browns Transport and of his law as given by the hon. member would employ fewer people. Can the Minis­ for Mt. Gravatt. ter say that those 500 employees have every confidence in the Bill and that they are not I have no authority from Mr. Bolton to say so but if the Government refuse a royal worried about dismissal? commission in this matter and if they are The Minister sheds crocodile tears in prepared to take action, let the Minister regard to the railways. In 18 months he himself take a writ out against Mr. Bolton. has callously dismissed 2,300 men, and he I feel sure that they will refuse a royal has the hide and impertinence to say in this commission because nothing will shake their House that members of the Qpposition are complacency; no charge however serious will not concerned about the dismissal of men compel them to face up to their responsi­ from the railways. That is only a pointer bilities; all they do is shrug them off from to what will happen in the future. I am time to time. surprised at the attitude of Country Party members on the Government benches, because Mr. Chalk: Plenty of time. when these branch lines are closed down, Mr. DUGGAN: I invite him to do that. as they will be, there will be no control over the freights charged by road-transport Mr. Chalk: You would like to stifle me operators when they have a monopoly. They in this debate. will charge whatever freights they like. Mr. DUGGAN: Fancy the Minister talk­ Mr. Chalk: How do you know that? ing about stifling him in the debate when he spoke for three hours! Moreover, he said Mr. DUGGAN: Because the Minister said that he had nothing to reply to. What in the that the Government were not going to lay name of goodness did he take so long about? down freight charges. How long would he talk if he had had some­ Mr. Chalk: How can that benefit a mono­ thing to reply to? poly? To return to the taxable income of Mr. Bolton and the income tax paid by him, Mr. DUGGAN: Because the Minister said I quote the following figures:- that, under the cloak of the Commissioner, he can issue any direction he likes. If a direction is issued through the Commissioner, Year Taxable Tax I Income it does not see the light of day. The Minister could say, "I am concerned about the mono­ £ £ s. d. poly of Cobb & Co." He could even say, 30 June, 1956 .. [ 4,158 1,273 5 0 30 June, 1957 .. 6,442 2,507 5 0 "I am concerned about the monopoly of 30 June, 1958 5,227 1,826 2 0 Western Transport," because it is a bigger 30 June, 1959 .. 7,675 3,221 7 0 monopoly, a bigger enterprise, and if he did 30 June, 1960 ··r 2,368 481 5 0 not like the hon. member for Toowoomba East, he could get square with him. I put that on record so that this gentleman might be vindicated to some extent, consider­ When I deal with this matter, I want ing the very wild and savage charges that the hon. member for Toowoomba East to have been made against him in this Chamber. know that I am not attacking him personally. I think the hon. member knows that, as a Mr. Chalk: He has pulled the wool over public man, I have become possessed of your eyes. certain information and that I have to use it in my public duties. The hon. member Mr. DUGGAN: If the hon. gentleman is addressed a meeting of the Rotary Club in so concerned about this wool, he will go Toowoomba recently, and he was not very into a witness box somewhere, either in a happy about the Bill. I know that other court of law or before a royal commission, hon. members on the Government benches and let us hear from him. I know the Minis­ are not very happy about it, either. He ter will not take that action, and I know said that, while he did not agree with all on the specific authority of Mr. Bolton that its provisions, he thought that people who the Government will rest behind the Commis­ played the game would have nothing to fear sioner for Transport in this matter. They from it. will let him bear all the odium and let the Government pay the costs, because they know The hon. member's own organisation, that if they did not succeed in their personal Western Interstate Transport, is one of the capacity they would have to pay something organisations mentioned in Mr. Bolton's themselves. charges relating to interstate operations. I hope the hon. member will not think that In addition, this man, this greedy, avarici­ he was picked out particularly, because many ous man, whose income last year was less others are in a similar position and it is not than that of the Minister for Transport, has something that is peculiar to him. In trying 200 employees in Toowoomba and the other to prove that the Government were not places served by his company. I think the giving protection to Western Interstate Trans­ firm in which the hon. member for Too­ port, the Minister said that 117 prosecutions woomba East is interested, Western Trans­ had been launched against it. However, as port, would be bigger. It would employ someone said, that is not a particularly good between 250 and 300 employees, possibly, in defence to the charge, because the offences State Transport Bill (1 DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 1987 might have justified 517 prosecutions. recently, and within the last 12 months, I Assuming there was no justification for 517 have had many people come to me and say, prosecutions, does the fact that 117 prose­ "We did not always agree with your road cutions did take place, indicate that it was transport policy, but at least we knew where playing the game, particularly as there was we stood. Whatever policy was laid down not one single breach by Cobb & Co? Will stood for a period of time, which enabled the Minister deny that? Not one single us to organise our operations on a proper breach has been committed by this man whom business basis." What does the Bill do? he vilifies. The reason these people were Within 30 days of its proclamation people compelled to undertake all these sorts of who have held licences-! think some of the subterfuges was firstly because of the_ vas­ licences do not fall due until April, 1962- cillating policy of the Minister. A previously are immediately thrown into the melting pot. eminent Q.C. said that he was prepared to Is that not a repudiation? What protection produce the affidavits of five people to whom is there against these people who would talk the Minister had said that they could get the so glibly about a Bill of Rights and the green light to go ahead with these operations. defence of freedom? Western Transport has Is it any wonder that not knowing what the somewhere in the vicinity of 300 employees, policy of the Transport Department was, is, Cobb & Co. 200, Browns 50. The assets of or is likely to be, these people were com­ those and the other firms conceivably could pelled to adopt those subterfuges? virtually disappear overnight despite the fact that they have licences to run until April, Some of the licensing provisions of the Bill 1962. There is no compensation. When the are particularly vicious, and there is no pos­ 1946 State Transport Facilities Act was sible justification for their introduction. As introduced there was a scientific approach or I have a little time this morning it may not formula for the assessment of compensation. do any harm to mention that at present there No-one wanted to take away from people are four licensed carriers to Warwick, and who wanted to transfer their licences the three to Gatton and Toowoomba. For other right to just compensation, but in 30 days areas, taking Cobb & Co. first, there is one from the time this Bill is proclaimed these licensed operator to Dalby-subject to com­ people must know where they stand because petition from rail, including some special cut of the action taken and the Minister's rates by the rail-and, of course, the border­ remarks in this Assembly. It could be a very hoppers and sham border-hoppers who grim day for some of them. I have not operate to Dalby. In the south-western area heard anything in the British Empire so dras­ there is one licensed carrier to Inglewood, tic as this measure under which the holder Texas, and Goondiwindi, competed against of a current licence that has a substantial by the rail and by many border-hoppers and period to run has his rights taken away with­ sham border-hoppers. For Gympie there is out any compensation whatsoever. Not one one licensed carrier-competed against by penny piece is promised them by way of the rail, including some special low rates, compensation. No doubt in these things all and border-hoppers. Western or Maranoa kinds of malpractices can operate. have exclusive services to Chinchilla, Jandowae, Clifton, Meandarra, Surat. The The Minister talks about his frankness on last is off-rail-all the others have rail com­ these matters, but I am not so sure that he petition and probably some border-hopping is quite frank. He was asked a question competitors too. Brady has an exclusive by the hon. member for Port Curtis about licence to Pittsworth, and Pimm to the movement of papers free of transport Milmerran-both with rail and border­ tax by Queensland Newspapers Pty. Ltd. hopper competition. These men have always The question asked by the hon. member for given excellent service. Crisps have exclusive Port Curtis on 12 October read- rights to Stanthorpe, complicated by special rail competition and many border-hoppers. "Is it a fact that Queensland News­ Before I go any further let us see what papers Pty. Ltd., publishers of 'The happened about the position in Stanthorpe. Courier-Mail' and one of the major dis­ I am not quarrelling with the Minister's tributors of magazines in Queensland, is general desire to win back traffic to the on behalf of its southern principals carry­ Railway Department, but in an endeavour to ing and distributing by road large do so he obviously made rates so low that quantities of southern magazines in con­ it was uneconomic for the road operator to travention of the Transport Facilities continue operations. The obvious conclusion Acts?" is that the moment the Railway Department The Minister's reply was "No," yet in this force them out of existence back come their Bill there is an amendment of the relevant railway rates again. sections by which authority is being given Mr. Chalk: Has that occurred? for Queensland Newspapers Pty. Ltd. to cart periodicals. The original Act gave news­ Mr. DUGGAN: I say that there is a very paper publishers the right to transport their strong probability that it will occur. I say commodity without the payment of any that people cannot hope for a continuity of taxes. It was claimed that news is indeed policy from the Minister's department at the most perishable of all commodities, but the present time. I have lots of critics, none that applies only to daily newspapers. It more vocal than the Minister himself. But does not apply to magazines; a day or twQ 1988 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill does not make any difference with them. not understand the complex legal difficulties So on 12 October, although the Minister facing the State. If that is so, why was he denied that these people did not do that brought up here? If he did not understand sort of thing-my advice is that they have these things, why bring him here? The done it and have been doing it for a long Government brought him here with full time, otherwise that question would not knowledge of his ability, yet later they said have been asked-no doubt he had in mind he was not the right person to make such a draft provision for this legislation aimed a report; that he did not know the local at catering for his friends, Queensland situation. If he did not know the situation, Newspapers Pty. Ltd., in this matter. having regard to his reputation-and the Minister and the Government gave him a Mr. Chalk: They are not particularly my very bold reputation, a very good reputa­ friends. tion-how on earth can people 10,000 miles Mr. DUGGAN: They are his friends all away in New York tell the Government how right; there is no doubt about that. Speak­ to run the Queensland railways? Even these ing on that matter, the other day we debated people who are working on the Mount Isa at length the salaries payable to certain railway are dependent on departmental officers of the Crown and, on behalf of officers. The Minister must know that. I thousands of wage-earners in this State, we know from officials of the department-and voiced strong objection to the proposed they were not guilty of breaches in telling increases. However, in "The Courier-Mail" me, but merely mentioned it in conversa­ on Saturday only about one inch of space tion-of the dependence of these people on was devoted to the subject. It simply said the detailed knowledge of men in the that the Bill was introduced and carried by department. 32 votes to 21, or whatever it was. In every large provincial newspaper in the I mentioned earlied the low earning rate State our vigorous protests were given the of American railroads of 2.6 per cent., the space that that important and controversial lowest of any industry in the United States measure deserved. during the period covered by the figures I gave. The Minister said that if Ford, With the Public Relations group in the Bacon and Davis could make the department Premier's Department and the retinue of give a return of 2.6 per cent. he would be officers Ministers have available to them, the very happy, and so would I, but my point Press by its active co-operation can headline was that of all the branches of industry the Government's activities and at the same throughout America the privately owned time restrict the space given to our criticism. American railways are the least profitable. In these matters any benefit derived from I do not think America is the best place to the co-operation of the Press has been paid go if the Government want knowledge of for by this amendment in the Bill. how to run the Queensland railways. I had I said the Opposition wanted to postpone the opportunity of a close look at the the operation of this Bill because we believe American railroad system in 1951. I was a that the economic problems of the Railway pretty avid reader of the American rail­ Department could have been resolved with­ road magazines that came every month to out any amendment of the Act. Despite the the department, and I kept myself fairly up claims of the Government when they went to date on railway trends and development. to the hustings in 1957 and 1960 that they Since I vacated the portfolio of Minister for had a combination of eminent businessmen, Transport I have, when time permitted, accountants and legal men in their ranks and kept reasonably abreast of developments in would be able to push Queensland ahead, America, and I do not think it is a suitable they have become "committee happy." No country from which to obtain consultants, other Government in the history of this because the methods employed over there State have appointed so many committees to are entirely different from ours. report on various activities. The Minister spoke about fully-loaded Many of those reports have not seen the wool trains. Apart from coal trains and light of day. I gave several instances at an trains on the Mount. Isa line, where the earlier stage-the Hytten report, the report department has had limited success in that on electricity operations by Merz and respect, it has not been possible to get McLellan, and one or two others. But what fully-loaded trains, and it will be difficult was the Minister's reply? He said in regard to get the same result with wool trains. In to Professor Hytten's report that the gentle­ a State the size of Queensland, with its small man did not know we were engaged in population, it is impossible to get the same litigation, and that in his report he made volume of traffic as is obtained by American some statements that could restrict or impede railroads. In the United States I have seen the Government in their handling of trans­ 10,000 tons of coal hauled by one train. I port prosecutions and so on. That bears saw three and four diesels of 6,000 and out the very point we are making. When he 8,000 horsepower pulling trains of 1 t to 2 was appointed the Government said of him miles in length. that he was an outstanding transport authority, yet when his recommendations Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. member did not agree with what they wanted done is getting right off the matter of transport. they sheltered behind the fact that he did He is not in order in discussing railways. State Transport Bill [1 DECEMBER) State Transport Bill 1989

Mr. DUGGAN: I do not want to go into allowed to be conveyed by road. That ques­ great detail, but I shall generalise by saying tion has always been subject to pressure, that American methods are entirely different and that is why I wish to see the ministerial from methods in Queensland. Railway power retained. I do not wish the Minister economics are linked closely with the pro­ to carry out secretly his decisions-or those posed measure. If there is to be an investi­ of the Government-on these matters, and gation, it should be carried out here. Surely then say, "It has nothing to do with me. the logic of my suggestion should commend Don't come to me. Go to the Commissioner. itself to sensible people. If the Govern­ I have no power." That approach is entirely ment are to spend £100,000 to obtain a wrong, because I believe there must always report on the major transport instrumentality be a final authority or group of persons to in this State, and the railways are that. with appeal to. Whatever powers were in the Act capital assets approaching £100,000,000, with previously, at least there was the final right something like 27,000 employees, and serving of the Minister to confirm or veto any almost every town in the State, either decision by the Commissioner, but under this directly or from the railheads, it seems Bill there is no such power. The Minister extremely illogical to undertake a major is not obliged to do that at alL review of the transport policy, bearing in We have seen in the Press that the Aus­ mind that the Government may have to wait tralian Guarantee Corporation, which is for 12 months before they know whether or probably the largest hire-purchase organisa­ not the report is acceptable. Suppose it is tion in the Commonwealth, was obliged to not acceptable. The Government will have send out a circular to all motor-vehicle wasted £100,000. The result will be frustra­ distributors that no funds would be made tion and confusion. available to people who wished to buy trucks on hire purchase. Only the other day I had Mr. Ewan: It will only be an investigation an interview with a man who is not a very of the railways. big operator, but who at present has £200,000 outstanding from people who have bought Mr. UUGGAN: Yes, but it must profoundly commercial vehicles. Under Clause 53 of the affect the economics of transport in Queens­ Bill the Minister can seize and sell vehicles land. It must do that. that may breach the law. Anyone with any common sense will restrict ventures of that Mr. Ewan: This measure has to do with kind. Certainly no financial house will risk road transport. its funds for such a purpose, and no distribu­ tor who seeks an endorsement on the hire­ Mr. DUGGAN: Of course it has to do purchase agreement will get funds guarantee­ with road transport. If branch lines are to ing finance for truck purchases. be closed down it must have some effect. If modern methods, or whatever methods The Minister sits idly by and lets these these people envisage, are to be introduced, things go on. The Australian Guarantee and are to be successful, they must have an Corporation is one of the largest hire-purchase effect on road transport. It will affect the companies in Australia. It has not come policy on road transport. How can we get into the field of electrical and household people to come here and invest large sums goods; it has confined its activlties to trucks of money when they do not know what will and tractors to assist in the development of happen? I had to face that problem in the country. With all its experience of the regard to buses. I was told that with these losses that could be occasioned by the imple­ costly enterprises a measure of preference mentation of this policy, it feels so strongly should be given to local authorities, and I about the matter that it has seen fit to send a agree. I was told by private bus operators circular about the matter to all the distribu­ operating on a 12 months' licence that they tors in the State. Supposing someone has could not get bank accommodation to equip a grudge against a truck-operator, such as, their fleets of buses to the high standard for example, the hen. member for Too­ necessary to attract the public. They wanted woomba East and gets a job with him as at least 10 years. We came down to a shorter a truck -driver and deliberately breaks the period of five years or three years. I think law by engaging in some interstate operation, it was a three-year period that we decided or something of the kind, and the vehicle on, but it was not entirely acceptable. The is seized, the owner of the vehicle has no hon. member for Toowoomba East knows the redress whatever. It could be a premedi­ tremendous amount of capital needed to tated action. acquire a fleet of modern motor vehicles. No-one is going to take advantage of these Mr. Chalk: At what stage is the vehicle proposed provisions and commit himself to seized? an expenditure running into many thousands Mr. DUGGAN: It is a dragnet thing. of pounds when he does not know how stable the policy will be. At least under the Labour Mr. Chalk: Give the full story. Government it was a stable policy, and the people knew what they could transport and Mr. DUGGAN: It is a dragnet clause. what they could not. As a result of consist­ Mr. Chalk: It does not serve your purpose. ent representations, and evidence in support of them, there may have been a gradual Mr. DUGGAN: It is a dragnet clause in increase in the type of commodity that was this matter. I have my litte card here, even 1990 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill from Toowoomba alone. No doubt the in 1946, and that is the regulation of this Minister has, too. I suppose there are a traffic. No-one can lightly dismiss the import­ dozen telegrams from the individual retail ance of the transport industry or the impact firms this morning. Some of them were very that transport costs have on the economy. active political supporters of the Minister, Various assessments have been made of the too. They have not hesitated. percentage that transport costs of one kind Mr. Chalk: It shows I do not favour or another represent of the total cost incurred anyone. by the community, and estimates range from 20 to 30 per cent. Mr. DUGGAN: Do not give me that! As It is very difficult to rationalise all trans­ a matter of fact, the Minister is a keen port. In Australia with its 10,000,000 people political strategist. He says now, "I do not it is very difficult to have modern shipping live in Toowoomba. I will thumb my nose facilities with all-mechanised ports, to have at the Toowoomba people." He keeps up modern aerodromes with a fleet of up-to-date his social engagements and so on in Too­ planes, as we have now, to have a network woomba but he also keeps his eye on votes. of arterial roads radiating out from the pro­ If he has to choose between attending a vincial cities, and to have an up-to-date and function in Toowoomba and attending one efficient rail service. All these require more in Crow's Nest, Crow's Nest will win out. money than one State, or even the Common­ As long as he does not stand to lose votes, wealth, can afford, and everybody knows it. he does not care one hoot for the people of I am not unaware of the Minister's difficul­ Toowoomba. All he is concerned about is ties with the complexities and controversies that he is able to command the support of in resolving all these problems. I cannot the people in the Lockyer electorate-in for the life of me see how they will be Gatton, Crow's Nest, and so on. I warn his resolved by the Bill. Ultimately the primary former political supporters that he will not producer will be hit. In the initial stages t~e care one hoot about their reactions to the Minister will make a great show. He will Bill, and the Government will not, either. adopt one of two courses. Either he will A dangerous complacency hangs over this hasten slowly to indicate that the dreaded Government just as it has hung over the axe is not going to fall or he will try to make Menzies Government for the last ten years. some spectacular show through the Commis­ No amount of public opinion and no flow of sioner for Transport to liberalise and open up telegrams from people affected will shake these matters and say, "I am not going to be their complacency or penetrate their political a Minister concerned only with operations conscience. in the south-eastern portion of the State. The measure has been hastily conceived This will operate all over the State." He and it contains some very vicious provisions. indicated that in his introductory remarks. If All sensible people consider that the Minister the Minister does that, chaos will result. is putting the cart before the horse. He Already many interests have indicated their has been on a probing excursion to find disapproval, and any sensible person can the facts and already he feels that he has understand their hesitancy in accepting the all the facts available to proceed as he thinks legislation. These people are not fools. They fit. have as much business acumen as anybody Other clauses in the Bill are equally else, and they have available to them the undesirable, such as the one enabling some services of accountants and legal men. They of these firms to carry foodstuffs and so on­ know the implications of these provisions, and, firms like Queensland Pastoral Supplies and because of that, a spirit of distrust is develop­ Tickles. I have no particular criticism of ~ng, a feeling that th<: Government cannot Tickles. I think we gave them a permit in Implement a stable policy. my time to operate in certain places. But I have little hope that our request for a are not the wholesale houses and so on going royal commission will be granted, because it to take advantage of the provisions of the was refused at the introductory stage; but I legislation and spread all over Queensland? suggest that the Opposition have put forward I am sure they will! That, too, might sound abundant, compelling and important ev~dc:nce the "death-knell" of the revenue available to to support their plea for a royal commissiOn. the licensed operator. Then it must have a I hope that at this late stage the Minister serious effect on the railways. The Minister will acknowledge that there is justification admits that the advantages of a door-to-door for the appointment of a royal commission. delivery are considerable. If he does, I think everybody will have more Mr. Chalk: Over a certain distance, yes. confidence in the administration of the Government, because the facts are very diffi­ Mr. DUGGAN: We concede that it has cult to ascertain at the moment. some advantage. I know from the tremend­ ous pressure that came to me when I was When this Bill becomes law, interstate Minister that if the gate is thrown open, as operations will increase rather than diminish. it will be by the Bill, obviously they will Already people who will be affected by the take advantage of it. provisions of the legislation are taking steps to link up with other people in the com­ The great danger of the Bill is that it cuts munity on an interstate basis, and unques­ rieht across what was attempted to be done tionably this trend will be accelerated under State Transport Bill (1 DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 1991 the provisions of the Bill. I think the bring in the most severe provisions that any­ Minister must be aware of that. If he thinks one could think of. They are at variance that will not be the result, I suggest that he with some principles of our Constitution. is only hoodwinking himself. The ordinary person knows how difficult it is to fight the Commissioner for Transport In the original Act we tried tp get away even with the powers that he has at present. from the excessively long hours that were Without any compunction he can double fees being worked by some employees, and to or prescribe any rate he wants. He is prevent drivers taking tablets to keep them expected to be more or less a clairvoyant in awake, and that sort of thing. It was a many cases. common practice for them to do that, and I suggest that the Bill will accentuate it. Mr. Chalk: You know that is not true. If you read the Bill you will see that the There have been a number of dismissals maximum he can charge is 3d. already. In Toowoomba the Department of Main Roads alone has put off 12 trucks in Mr. DUGGAN: If fees are not paid, as a the last few weeks. The people who own, penalty he can double them. them have heavy commitments to the people Mr. Chalk: Double the fees, but that is a from whom they purchased the trucks, and, penalty. obviously, they will do some border-hopping or get a licence or a permit to enable them Mr. DUGGAN: There is no right of to use their trucks. I do not blame them. appeal at all. Under the American Con­ That has become necessary only because of stitution there is the right of trial by jury the economic situation with which they are in any action for over 20 dollars. But here confronted. the Commissioner for Transport can double the fees and there is no right of appeal any­ In the Committee stage we intend to where. It is altogether wrong. The Minister develop our arguments along certain lines, might say that some of these powers would and we propose to offer certain suggestions be found in previous Acts, but there was to the Minister for his acceptance. The never so much agitation, controversy or dis­ principal matter to which we will refer is quiet about any of these things when the that we disagree very violently with the Labour Government were in office. I can­ provisions of Clause 53. In other cases not recall one single deputation in the 10 unfair burdens are being placed upon the years after the State Transport Facilities Act operators in terms and contracts. We think was introduced in 1946 when there were that there is no provision for just compensa­ complaints about the harshness of the tion, and we think that, generally, we are penalties or the principles contained in the reposing too much power in the Commissioner Act, or any of the powers given to the Com­ for Transport. I have a healthy respect for missioner or the Minister. the Commissioner. He is a hard-working, sincere man, and he has worked very hard Mr. Chalk: You ignore the fact that you since he was appointed to his office. He did not have trouble with Section 92 of the has a very good staff, and we do not criticise Commonwealth Constitution. the staff. The Minister said the other day that I had attacked the Transport Depart­ Mr. DUGGAN: We brought in amend­ ment because there had been a tremendous ments because of Section 92. That is nothing increase in the staff. When he was in Oppo­ new. The Minister had all these arguments sition, the Minister talked about there being way back in 1949. We went out of office too much red tape, yet the number of in 1957. We introduced amendments because employees of the department has risen tre­ of Section 92. mendously since he took office. If the provi­ Mr. Chalk: They were all overthrown by sions contained in the Bill are to be imple­ the Privy Council. mented correctly, many more will have to be employed. Mr. DUGGAN: Of course they were. Surely the Minister is not going to suggest The powers of delegation of the Minister that he has the answer to Section 92 here! are far-reaching under the Bill. The police­ If he is going to pose as the person who is man out at Bulwinkel, no matter how solving all these problems his glee and stupid he is, has tQ be able to read the pleasure will be of very short duration. mind of the Commissioner, and no action can be taken against him under the provi­ Many of the good constitutional lawyers sions of the Bill if he makes a mistake. The say that you can shoot all the holes you like whole thing has bee.n wrongly conceived, and in the Bill-and that will be proved. the best we can say about the great powers Mr. Chalk: You are hoping. that have been reposed in these people is that the Bill is either Fascist or Communist Mr. DUGGAN: Not at all. All I hope to in character. It sometimes makes me laugh prove is that I am right in my criticism of to hear hon. members on the Government the Bill. For political purposes the Minister benches talking about private enterprise and makes a great song about "right or wrong", the opportunity that people have to get on, and all that sort of thing, but it does not when under the cloak of trying to help pri­ worry me at all. People know that I have mary producers and the people generally, they been right many more times than I have 1960-3R 1992 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill

been wrong on these matters. But ever since not happy about the powers in this Bill. The the hon. gentleman has been in Parliament moment these people to whom I refer are he has had a cure for all these things. In broken and defeated the monopolies will be 1957 he talked about the divided Labour in. If it is not Bolton or Anderson or movement. At that time Sir Arthur Fadden Brown, it will be some interstate concern was talking about the crocodile tears that with tremendous financial interests. Once were being shed for Duggan and the alli­ they get control, with our branch railway gator tears for Gair, but nothing mattered as lines closed down they will charge what they long as they wiped them out. Of course like. There will be no protection at all once they succeeded in doing it. I am not the monopolies take charge. They will quarrelling about that-it is in the past, and charge whatever they think the economy let it remain buried in the past. But since will stand. Yet the Minister says this will the hon. gentleman came in here he has been be done in a competitive way! It will be a severely critical of railway administration by mad dog race. If it is not mad competition the Labour Government. He told me how he there will be the same discretion exercised would run the railways, but now he has to on licences and there will be no real value spend £100,000 to find out what he was in the Bill. supposed to know six years ago. He is going For those and many other reasons that to spend £100,000 of the taxpayers' money could be advanced, this measure is a blot but he has not even enough sense to wait on the transport history of this State. I until the report comes in before he intro­ characterised the day of its introduction as duces these drastic provisions. The "Black Thursday" and I have no need to deputation that met me on Friday said it retract my statement. We asked for a royal was a great pity that the provisions of the commission for the reasons enumerated by Bill were not promulgated widely so that the me and by my deputy, the hon. member for people would know what is involved. Until Kedron. Our charges made have not been we got a copy of the Bill from the printer answered. The Government have apparently a couple of days ago we did not know how said, "We will wait; one of the papers may serious some of the provisions were. But publish a bit of it or it may not. If it is the Government introduce the Bill with a lot published we will dismiss it as irresponsible." of cheap propaganda saying how it will be of benefit to the man on the land. Ultimately The Minister said the other day that I did it will be of no benefit to the man on the not know what was in the Bill. I spent con­ land; ultimately it will have the effect of siderable time studying the Bill, as did other paralysing the transport system and accel­ Opposition members. The Premier said that erating the rate of dismissals in the Railway the hon. member for Carnarvon was the Department. With a Bill of this nature you only one who spoke on the Bill. will find one of two things: either it will not Mr. Chalk: He did not say it was the achieve its purpose or the spectacular results hon. member for Carnarvon; he said it was that the Minister talks about, or if there are the hon. member for Port Curtis. spectacular results, at the same time there will be cut-throat competition all over the Mr. DUGGAN: The Minister knows what place. the Premier said. He himself said that no-one Some temporary advantages might accrue had dealt with the Bill yet we were kept as a result of this cut-throat competition, but here for three hours, until 1 o'clock in the then we will revert to the position that morning, while he spoke of everything, existed in 1946. It will eventually become including quotations from the Bible-from an economic point limited by physical the Gospel of St. Luke and the Pharisee and endurance when people cannot "take it" the publican. beyond a certain point. They will go out in For the reasons I have mentioned, we feel unsafe vehicles, the employees will not be that the Minister has not the confidence of covered by proper awards and they will have those interested in the road-transport industry to take drugs to keep themselves awake. That of this State. Certainly the transport opera­ is not an exaggeration; it is on record that tors have not much faith in him, and the that was done. There will be a re-enactment financial houses have now indicated that they of what happened previously. have no faith in the Government's policy. In The small operators like the Overlacks and their drive to develop the State we are getting the Harrises will be forced out of business. an expansion of the financial policy imple­ They cannot stand up against this relentless mented by the Menzies Government. In this group. We have it on the highest authority morning's Press there is a statement relative that the transport police are out to hound out to a restriction of credit because of this certain men. I am not saying that the Bill. Minister gave the instruction, but they had All this ballyhoo about going to Honolulu instructions to break Overlack and Harris, to attract tourists and the continual general and they certainly broke them. The same talk of developing the State! People are thing will happen to others. They will break getting fed to the teeth with the Government's Bolton or Anderson, or anybody else they propaganda about the economic development want to. The Premier himself came into the that has taken place in Queensland, whilst at picture during the election and said that the the same time men are being put off in Crown must be trusted, but the people are industry and credit is being curtailed. All State Transport Bill ( 1 DECEMBER ) State Transport Bill 1993 these things have a cumulative effect and, enjoy today. It is a competitive age and when hon. members on this side of the the railways must compete or retire grace­ House cite them as facts, we are falsely fully from some of the areas." In giving called "prophets of doom" or "knockers of that as one of the reasons for the introduc­ the Railway Department." tion of the Bill, the Minister forgot com­ We have nothing to be ashamed of in pletely or abandoned the arguments he has the way we handled these problems when used from time to time in levelling attacks we were the Government. We gave funds at border-hoppers and in supporting the to the Commissioner for Railways during the imposition of transport taxes. Those argu­ war years and we continued to pump funds ments were that, whereas the railways were into his department. And no doubt he could a fully capitalised undertaking, road and air use them advantageously. I could pick out transport were not, and that very little of half-a-dozen officers of the department, the total capitalisation of assets of and half-a-dozen public servants or half-a-dozen facilities used by road and air transport was businessmen in the community who would taken into account in their charges. Take give the department a better report on what the American railroad system as an illustra­ is required for the Queensland Railways than tion. It provides complete vindication of the report the Government are likely to get the attitude of the Opposition to this legis­ from this firm of international consultants. lation. We have only to turn to some of the old reports of a former Commissioner I have given a general review of the for Railways, Mr. Wills. I intend to make attitude of the Opposition, and for the some quotations from his 1946 annual reasons given I propose to ask the Premier report, in which there are some statements to appoint a royal commission into these relative to the transport systems in the matters. Our charges stand. I move the U.S.A. and relate them to the Minister's following amendment:- failure to make a sincere approach in giving "Omit the word- his reasons for the introduction of this legis­ 'now' lation. I realise I am going back some years, and add the words- but I believe Mr. Wills is regarded as an expert on transport systems. 'on this day twelve months'." Our attitude to the Bill is that we are going Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I hope the hon. to vote against it and the clauses in it. member realises that a full discussion on rail­ ways cannot be entered into. Mr. LLOYD (Kedron) (12.37 p.m.): I Mr. LLOYD: The report covers road trans- second the amendment. port. On page 14 of his report, dated In doing so I do not intend to repeat 14 June, 1946, Mr. Wills said- the analysis I made of the Bolton story "Advocacy of 'unrestricted freedom for at the introductory stage, but I do repeat all forms of transport' is quite common that the charges were sufficiently serious to nowadays." warrant notice being taken of them by the Government, and an investigation into many The Minister himself has become one of its of them, even if the investigation was under­ protagonists in recent weeks, after being an taken only in the interests of road transport antagonist for some time while in Opposition and the future welfare of the Railway and also during his administration of the Department. The two departments cannot department. be separated. They work in close contact The report continues- and are closely allied in their transport "That would appear to be a perfectly activities. In addition, the investigation reasonable proposition. Its protagonist could be into the maladministration of the argues, with apparent logic, that in the Railway Department during the past three same way that the bullock or horse team years, which has culminated in the intro­ or the coach was displaced by the railway duction of this Bill. The whole transport the latter must give way to more modern system has to be examined very carefully and rapid methods of transport. What he before any decision is made as to the best fails to realise--" method of co-ordinating road-and-rail trans­ I refer this to the Minister. port. That examination cannot be carried out by the Government. It should be under­ The report proceeds- taken by a separate authority charged with "--is that such later transport agencies the responsibility of investigating the whole are quite unable to compete with railways transport system, closely and thoroughly, in in a general way but can only economically all its ramifications. Such a complete exami­ handle certain classes of traffic, i.e., passen­ nation could be undertaken only by a royal gers and high-class goods." commission appointed by the Government. It says later- The Minister when introducing the Bill "Whether they like it or not, Queens­ made some brief statements about the Rail­ landers are absolutely dependent upon the way Department, including one that I think railways because so far no other form gives the reason for the introduction of the of transport has been evolved which can Bill. He said, "It is realised that after this carry out the job. If the operators of Bill bo:comes law no longer will the railways planes or motor vehicles were treated as experience much of the protection that they common carriers--" 1994 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill

That is to be noted. runway." The report at that stage refers Then the report continues- specifically to air transport and the fact that the United States Governments had financed "--and compelled to accept for trans­ the construction of aerodromes, the installa­ port all goods offered to them at rates tion of navigational services, and meteoro­ which the traffic could bear they could logical services-all capital works required not possibly carry on busines. So let us for air transport. disabuse our minds of the false notion that railways are obsolete as a means of Then it goes on to deal with road trans­ transport." port and quotes from another pamphlet, issued by the Association of American Railroads. That quotation leads up to the statements We must remember that the railroads of the I intend to make in ~ few moments. Up to United States are run by private companies. the present time there is no indication in But the United States Government were con­ this legislation that the road-transport opera­ structing roads, aerodromes, canals and high­ tors of Queensland will be declared common ways and giving permission to private road­ carriers. For that reason they can pick the and air-transport companies to operate along type of goods they will carry except for the specific routes without having to pay for capi­ restrictions placed on goods to be carried tal expenditure on the facility. The private by road transport contained in this Bill. It railroads of the United States protested is very important to remember that the Bill vigorously because, in having to bear the capi­ does not declare road-transport companies tal cost of their railroads, they could not common carriers. compete. Mr. Wills, a former Commissioner for Railways, said in his report in 1947- Mr. Chalk: It specifies the restriction on goods. "The railway's attitude towards water­ ways is presented in a pamphlet issued by Mr. LLOYD: It does not specify the restric­ the Association of American Railroads tion on goods. All that the Bill states is entitled, 'What do you get for your bil­ that the police will have power to control lions?' In this the railway systems demand whatever the Commissioner decides. Of the collection of reasonable charges for the course, the Minister will declare the policy. use of navigable inland waterways improved It is six of one and half a dozen of the at public expense. other. "Pointing out that the basis of AmericaP Mr. Chalk: Your Leader does not believe industry is common carrier transportation it is six of one and half a dozen of the by rail"-- other. Again we find that feature, the common car­ rier. He continues- Mr. LLOYD: The Minister declared cer­ " ... the pamphlet goes on to stress the tain goods in his speech and he also declared genuine interest which commerce, indus­ that the Commissioner would have full and trial and agricultural, has in the mainten­ complete powers over road transport in ance of railroad traffic at economic Queensland. The Minister would not have volumes. 'And yet,' they go on to say, any power to confirm or veto, but at the 'in the illusory pursuit of cheap transpor­ same time, the Commissioner would have to tation for some-no matter what it costs follow Government policy as laid down by the taxpayers-our nation has followed the Minister. That is what I mean when I policies which diminish the volume of rail say it is six of one and half a dozen of the traffic; which divert freight from common other. In other words, the Minister will be carriers to private carriers; and which add the final arbiter on what goods shall be both to the tax bill and the real and actual restricted. cost of transportation for most shippers and especially small shippers'." Mr. Chalk: You should have a talk with your Leader and compare notes. That can all be related to the fact that, following those protests in America, the Mr. LLOYD: I am afraid the Minister United States Government took a very defi­ does not understand. The important nite stand on behalf of the private railroad point is that the Bill does not declare companies and insisted that, before trans­ a road-transport operator as a com­ port companies could operate in competition mon carrier. If we are to open up the whole with the railways, they submit full details of State to road transport it is essential that the form of transportation they were operat­ every road-transport operator be declared a ing and of their freight charges. Now it is impossible for any road-transport in America common carrier. The road-transport opera­ to operate in any way in unfair competition tors should be declared common carriers if with the private railroads. The Government they are to be allowed to compete unfairly agency says they cannot carry goods on roads with the railway system. n'lless they charr,e a certain rate. They are I have quoted from Mr. Wills's annual prevented from charging too low a rate. report for 1946. I now wish to quote from Someone must pay for the tremendous page 17 of his 1947 annual report some very capitalisation involved in transport. It should important statements on transport competi­ not be necessary for a Government, as this tion that were made in the United States of Government have done, to give as one of the America. He quotes from an advertise­ reasons for the introduction of legislation ment of the Boston and Maine Railway Com­ that the cheaper form of transport possible pany, headed "You've been working on the by means of road transport is not available- State Transport Bill (1 DECEMBER] State Transport Eill 1995

to the people and that they should be able to investigate the administration of the Rail­ to enjoy the benefit of it. Road transport way Department. That investigation must would not be cheap if the transport com­ come into close touch with the transport panies were compelled to build and maintain system of Queensland in some way, and the the roads upon which they run. There must very fact that the Government have asked be a rationalisation of the whole transport for this investigation at the same time as system. they have introduced this legislation sub­ The Minister gave four reasons for the stantiates the arguments we are advancing introduction of the Bill. The first was that in support of the need for a royal commission no consideration had been given to country into the whole transport system in Quee.ns­ centres-that licensing in country areas had Iand. The fact that they are calling for that been ignored in the past. The second was investigation indicates that there is some­ that monopolies had been created in the thing wrong with the administration of the transport system. The third was that the Railway Department and that there is a need licensing system was giving transport com­ for either an extension or reduction in the panies protection against competition. The activities of the department to enable it to fourth was that there was a compulsion on continue operating. transport companies to charge railway All the circumstances leading up to the freight rates and that the extra profits were introduction of this Bill give rise to very going into the pockets of the transport com­ panies. All those matters could have been grave suspicions that this is an attempt to rectified by the administration of the Trans­ destroy the railway system of Queensland port Act under the licensing system already completely. I do not know whether it is operating. The Minister cannot tell me that deliberate, but there are three definite indica­ whilst monopolies were being created in the tions. The first indication we received was transport industry in Queensland, under the the savage overall increase in railway freights licensing system, additional licenses could not by up to 20 per cent. The second was that have been granted, nor can he teli me that in the Budget there was a curtailment of the actual compulsion on railway freights capital expenditure on railway works, and was not done without due consideration. If the third was the introduction of this legis­ it was done without full consideration of lation. The Minister said that it would be the cost impact on the consumers, the respon­ necessary for us to sit back and wait and sibility lies with his own administration in see whether this system will enable the Rail­ the past three years. way Department to compete with road trans­ port, but the indications are that with the There is talk of protection against com­ savage increases in rail freights-not taken petition. Are we to go back to the law singly but all over Queensland-and the of the jungle following the introduction of introduction of the Bill the competition this Bill, with cut-throat tactics being used between road and rail will be curtailed to between carriers and the big man swallowing an extent that it will virtually be impossible the lot because it is impossible for the small for the Railway Department to show an9 man to operate? I envisage that if this satisfactory improvement in its revenue. legislation is administered in the way outlined by the Minister, that will occur. There will The complete tightening up of road trans­ be a wholesale granting of permits for road port on the basis outlined by the Minister transport, and small operators will be per­ will detrimentally affect the whole of the mitted to conduct a transport business. If railway service. I do not say that it is a this cut-throat competition goes on, will the deliberate attempt on the part of the Govern­ position be reached eventually where mono­ ment to destroy the Queensland railways polies are created? The Minister will say completely, but I believe it is a deliberate that there is provision in the Bill to prevent attempt to bring the Railway Department to the transfer of any permits that are granted. a stage where it may not show the same But the clause gives no protection at all. losses as before but will offer a reduced A transport firm will have no goodwill in service. The most important point we have to the business it is building up because it concern ourselves with is whether the road cannot transfer the permit. When the stage transport service, which could, in the words is reached that, because of cut-throat com­ of the Minister, "displace existing railway petition, it cannot compete successfully, all services," will give the same service to the it has is the property it possesses-in other people as the Railway Department has. We words, its trucks. Naturally, any company realise that road transport is not a common wishing to extend its activities will be in a carrier, and that it is operated on a profit position to purchase very cheaply the property basis. Road transport must show profits to owned by a firm going out of business. enable it to exist, whereas the Railway The four reasons given by the Minister Department gives a service which was for the introduction of this legislation fall designed firstly for developmental purposes. completely to the ground when we consider If that were not so concessions would not be that the powers already existed under the granted from time to time to sections of previous system of licensing. Another reason private industry and other people. The for deferring this legislation for 12 months activities of the Railway Department have pending the establishment of a royal com­ been concentrated on the development of mission on transport could be found in the the State and new industries. The very action of the Government in asking the fact that the Government administer the American company of Ford, Bacon and Davis affairs of the Railway Department and grant 1996 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill special concessions to primary producers and New South Wales, it is very difficult for settlers on the land helps to provide the any Government to control adequately or incentive for expansion. What will happen police the transport facilities of this State. with road transport? Will people who are I was rather sorry to hear the Minister, granted permits in country areas be told that when moving the second reading, say that they must provide a certain service in their no doubt we would be holding a number areas? Will they be told that they have to of briefs on behalf of many people in the carry certain types of goods? Will they be community. We may well hold briefs-- told that they have to provide this service even though it does not pay? There is noth­ Mr. Chalk: I should expect you to. ing in the Bill giving the Commissioner or Mr. LLOYD: We would be entitled to Minister power to state what service shall be hold a brief for the master carriers or the provided by those granted permits. Permits transport companies, or even the hire­ will be issued in three categories. The first purchase companies and people in many class of permit will be the type mainly issued other sections of the community. The Bill is in country areas, but there will be nothing so drastic and so extreme in its provisions in those permits to state what service is to that all these people in the community would be provided. In the past the Railway Depart­ naturally have to find some method of ment has provided a service at a loss to declaring their opposition to many of the many people in remote areas. The loss in proposed provisions. But our most import.ant one area has been recouped by the taxpayers brief is held not on behalf of the hire­ living in other parts of Queensland. That has purchase companies, the transport companies, been one of the accepted features of efficient or the master carriers, but on behalf of the transport systems throughout Australia dur­ people employed in those indust':ies an?. in ing the nation's development. We have the Railway Department and their families. reached the stage now where we must accept Those are our most important briefs. the fact that there has been a public owner­ If we are to reach the stage of opening ship of railway transport systems, and pos­ up the whole of the transport system of sibly this principle has been extended to air Queensland, as the Bill envisages and as transport. the Minister has said, hundreds, and possibly thousands, of people engaged in During the luncheon adjournment I read transport industries will be put out of the "Telegraph" newspaper cartoon on employment. The important brief we hold secession and I wondered whether this is for the employees of industry. We are legislation was a forerunner to the not concerned as much about the prosperity possible secession of Queensland. As I of hire-purchase companies as we are about understand it, Mr. Speaker, you are a possible the welfare of their employees; we are not president of the new republic that is envisaged as much concerned about motor companies by the Minister for Development, Mines, as we are about the hundreds of men who Main Roads and Electricity. I believe the have been thrown out of employment in hon. member for Clayfield is the possible the motor industry through the credit commander-in-chief of the army, the Minister restrictions of the Federal Government and for Development may possibly be admiral the effect that this Bill will have on the in charge of the fleet and the possible repossession rights over vehicles under hire governor-general is our esteemed Premier. purchase. He may have some rivalry from the hon. member for Gregory, but I think the Premier I assure the Minister that many motor will be governor-general. Air vice-marshal!, companies and firms are very alarmed about of course, will be the hon. member for the declaration made by hire-purchase Windsor. I feel sorry for the Minister for companies. Transport, because I understand that the Mr. Chalk: One company. Minister for Development is considering relegating him to the position of transport Mr. I~LOYD: Not only one. officer. Mr. Chalk: Name the others. Mr. Chalk: While Brisbane remains Mr. LLOYD: The Minister should not unsewered there will always be a job for you. try to fool himself. Mr. LLOYD: So long as I can be a leader Mr. Chalk: Name the others. of the opposition to the republic it will be Mr. LLOYD: I do not intend to name all right with me. I will remain in opposition anybody. I knew about the position before to the republic. I read the article in this morning's news­ I think it is important that we should paper A friend who is associated with one give mature consideration to the amendment, of the motor firms came to see me about it. which calls for the appointment of a royal D:r. Noble interjected. commission and the postponement of this legislation. The transport system of Queens­ Mr. LLOYD: He was a member of the land differs in many ways from the transport A.L.P.-in fact of the Hamilton branch. He systems in other States. I think the Minister stood for election on behalf of the Labour has conceded the point that, with the capital Party and would still stand if the opportunity city of Brisbane so close to the border of was offered to him. State Transport Bill [1 DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 1997

We have advanced substantial arguments certain things happen. Firstly, cut-throat in favour of the appointment of a royal tactics will be adopted until the smaller commission into the transport industry. It operator Is forced out of business and should be appointed not only to investigate monopoly takes over. The very thing the the charges made against the Government Minister wants to avoid will eventuate. and certain transport companies, but also Immediately that occurs the monopoly will to inquire into transport matters generally maintain freight rates slightly below railway for the purpose of safeguarding the interests rates. It will operate in unfair competition of the people. with the railways and retain the high profits I have spoken of the position in America that the Minister alleges are now being and the fact that the Government of that made. country took strong action to preserve to an If the hire-purchase companies continue, extent the prosperity of private railroad because of the provisions of this Bill, to companies, and protect them against the refuse to make finance available for people inroads of motor transport, the action being to purchase trucks with more than a 4-ton taken because of the additional capitalisation capacity, it could be that the only people involved in railway operations. The Queens­ who will be able to afford to purchase the land Government propose to take the reverse larger vehicles will be companies with ample step. Are they going to step out of the field capita!. The Minister has promised that there and give transport companies unlimited will be transport services in the country areas, powers? Are they going to allow the estab­ and it may be that the only people who will lishment of companies that will operate in be able to afford to operate those services direct opposition to the Railway Department? will be the large transport companies. Regard must be had to the part played There is already talk of an oil company by railways in the development of many and a large transport company forming a areas and the establishment of new industries partnership that will be established just over throughout the State. The department gave the border in New South Wales to take assistance when those industries needed it advantage of the provisions of this Bill. They in their early days. A case in point is will form one of the largest interstate trans­ Mount Isa Mines Limited. The department port companies that we have ever known. gave that company very generous assistance. If that happens, with the road being con­ In a lesser sphere of operations the depart­ structed from Brisbane to Cairns, the time ment rendered assistance to landholders and is not far distant when the transport com­ small industries throughout the State. Those panies will be able to operate on a truly industries have been encouraged. interstate basis. Because of the decisions of Railway concessions have brought about the High Court, it will be very easy for the expansion of those industries. Are freight them to come into direct competition with concessions to cease overnight merely because the Railway Department. Without paying transport companies that will be established transport fees they will be able to take all after the passage of this legislation operate the freight that is now available to the only for the purpose of making profit? Railway Department. Even with the restric­ tions placed on goods, this Bill cannot affect The Minister, in his introductory speech, transports operating interstate. If that said it was impossible for the department to position arises we will be worse off than compete with road transport in certain ever. areas and that many branch lines would have to be closed. That would be a The goods stipulated by the Ministe;; in retrograde step, but it is indicative of the his introductory speech should be submitted attitude of the Government. A royal com­ to a very careful scrutiny by any royal com­ mission could investigate many matters in mission that may be set up. While the M:inis­ the interests of the Government and in the ter mentioned coal, sugar, certain grains, and interests of the people. We agree with pre­ certain oil, and a number of other commodi­ ties, he did not mention wool. However, he vious Commissioners, and I think the present stated that is was unfair that a grazier living Commissioner for Railways would hold the at Goondiwindi should be able to transport same view, that the railways will be able to his wool by road to Brisbane, whereas a compete with road transport only if the grazier living at Longreach, or Winton, or Government modernise them, or undertake some other place in Queensland, should not tremendous capital investment to improve have the same right. There is a possibility the service and facilities. If that course is that the whole of the wool clip will be lost not adopted the service will slip badly. If to the railways, and that would have a very we allow road transport to have the field to serious effect on railway revenue. It would itself, the position will be chaotic. Even if be a matter of very serious concern to the branch lines are closed, the people have to railways. Every year over £1,000,000 in pay for those lines. The lines have to be revenue is earned by the Railway Department paid for from revenue, or in other words from the transport of wool. In the year from taxation of the people. 1958-1959, £1,093,527 was earned by the The Bill will have very serious effects. It Railway Department from the carriage of will give road transport an open go in 58,878 tons of wool. If that revenue was direct competition with the railways. Unless lost by the Railway Department it would a limit is placed on the freight rates charged, have a very serious impact on the revenue. 1998 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill

Mr. Chalk: Do you think it will all be Leader has pointed out, the move is made lost? basically because of the highly unsatisfactory state of transport matters generally in Queens­ Mr. LLOYD: I realise that the Commis­ land over the last three or four years. Since sioner has power to declare a restriction on 1954 difficulties in the control of road trans­ certain goods. I believe that the Minister port, particularly of border-hoppers, have during his introduction of the Bill, said that been intensified. Nevertheless, there was not under the principal Act the licensing system anything like the agitation there is now for allow~d wool from Gondiwindi to be brought a royal commission, or the general dissatisfac­ to Bnsbane by road, whereas wool could not tion among railway men and road transport be brought by road from Winton and operators, till the present Minister assumed Longreach, and other places. responsibility for road and rail transport. Mr. Chalk: What else did I say in my The Government themselves have set some­ speech about wool. thing of a precedent for the course suggested by the Opposition today. The hon. member Mr. LLOYD: The Minister can deal with for Port Curtis pointed out in the introduc­ that in his reply. tory stage of the debate on another very important measure, and one with far-reaching Mr. Chalk: You do not even know. consequences the Companies Bill, a comple­ mentary measure to which is to be introduced Mr: LLOYD: All we are trying to find out shortly by the Minister for Justice-that the is which commodities will be restricted. Government have already indicated that, owing to the nature of the legislation and Mr. Chalk: You select one portion of my the interest of the community in it-- speech to suit your own purposes. Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The Transport !V':r. LLOYD: It is all very well for the Bill is before us and in this debate the hon. !"fmrster to say that. I am thinking of the member is not in order in forecasting legisla­ mter..:sts of all the people of the State. tion or in referring to a Bill that is to come Mr. Chalk: So am I. before the House. Mr. LLOYD: This is very important to Mr. HANLON: I am not referring to the Queensland. We cannot afford to have the one that is to come before the House. In Q_ueensland railways system destroyed over­ introducing the Companies Act Amendment mght by a Bill that is badly conceived from Bill that has already gone through the the r:oint of view of politics, from the point Chamber, the Minister for Justice said that of v~ew of ~conomics, and from the point the Government thought it would be wise of v1ew of mdustry. That is all the more to introduce the consolidating measure and reason why there should be a royal commis­ allow it to lie on the table till the February sion. The Bill was badly conceived in the or March Session so that all sections of the first place, and now an attempt is being made community would have an opportunity of to rush it through, so it can only be assumed bringing their opinions of it to the attention that it is something in the nature of a try-on. of the Government. We think that is a It could operate satisfactorily or it could very sensible attitude to adopt with such prove to be detrimental to the State. So a important legislation. Similarly, we do not royal commission is needed to inquire into all think that, generally, it is in the interests of these matters. If some goods could be better the people who will be affected by the State carried by rail, let us have them carried by Transport Bill, whether railwaymen or road rail. If it is necessary to open up road trans­ operators, to introduce it and a week or so port, a royal commission can stipulate that later push it through the House without ~here s~ould be a minimum freight charge giving them the opportunity of bringing the m certam areas, and that all road transport full weight of public opinion before the should be declared a common carrier. Road Government. The very serious charges that transport should not be allowed to pick and have been made by Mr. Bolton, the trans­ ch_o_ose the goods it will carry. It is a public port operator from Toowoomba, and utility and an essential feature of State enumerated by the Leader of the Opposition development. We cannot hope to develop the at the introductory stage, make it even more State without efficient transport systems. necessary that the passage of the Bill should Some areas necessarily sustain heavy losses. be. delayed. As the Leader of the Opposition In the past, we have been able to guarantee pomted out, these charges have not been the l?eop!e of Queensland that, although a answered, and I do not think the Govern­ certam area may sustain a loss the service Tent should just shrug them off and say, will be maintained to that ar~a, enabling Because we have the numbers in the House employment to be continued in industries and ~e have had a division on this question, there. . That is an important feature of the that 1s the finish of it." The only answer legislatiOn. the Government gave to the charges made by Mr. Bolton was that the Minister rose in (Time expired.) the Chamber and made a strong personal attack on Mr. Bolton. Irrespective of what .Mr: HANLON (Baroona) (2.33 p.m.): As the Minister might say about Mr. Bolton this Is a far-reaching measure I am very personally, I suggest that that does not really pleased to support the amendment. As my State Transport Bill [1 DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 1999 enter into the question so far as Parlia­ that Parliamentary procedure should not be ment is concerned. The question is whether abused, but surely when allegations of those charges are serious enough to warrant corruption or malpractice are made the an investigation of them. The person making advantage should be taken of Parliamentary the charges may have personal faults; I am privilege to air such matters so that the neces­ not saying that he has or has not; but the sary inquiries can be made. It is not for the Minister has chosen to reply to the charges Opposition to make these statements outside, by making a very strong personal attack on but for the Government to have an inquiry, him, just as the Government sought to reply now that the matter has been raised in to charges made by one of their own former Parliament. If the hon. member for Ministers, the hon. member for Fassifern, Toowoomba East wants a full inquiry, if the by making personal attacks on members of allegations made by Mr. Bolton are not cor­ the Opposition and on the hon. member for rect, and that he has an answer to them as Fassifern himself. That is not an answer they affect him, those associated with him in to the charges made in relation to the business and his colleagues in Government, Government's administration of road trans­ it would be in his best interests for the port over the last three years, and any Government to appoint a royal commission. government worthy of the name would not The Bill could lie on the table for 12 months hesitate to appoint a royal commission as a so that the cloud over the transport position gesture of good faith, and an indication to could be cleared away. And when that was the public that they had absolutely nothing done the Government could bring to Parlia­ to worry about in having a searching inquiry ment suggestions for the better control of into the administration of the department transport in Queensland. The whole matter during their term of office. The old saying then could be approached on the basis of the "Silence speaks volumes" is very true, and worth of those suggestions to the State, I think the Government are certainly doing rather than under the present cloud of sus­ a disservice to the public servants who have picion caused by Mr. Bolton's allegations. been mentioned in these charges, apart altogether from themselves, if they refuse to A number of provisions in the Bill warrant hold an independent inquiry into this matter, its being held for 12 months, or at least a an inquiry completely free from the period long enough for the public to be able atmosphere of party politics in this to get the full picture of the Government's Chamber. proposed action. It could be said that, going back over Dr. Delamothe: Give us some of them. the history of royal commissions that have been appointed by this Parliament and other Mr. HANLON: I shall get onto that. The Parliaments in the Commonwealth, it has portion of the Bill dealing with the con­ been proved when their findings have been fiscation of vehicles has already been announced that the charges were not based mentioned by the Leader and the Deputy very often on fact, that often some Leader of the Opposition. In the space of a people who initiated the charges were few days since the Bill was introduced a con­ trying to "get square" with somebody. siderable amount of concern has been Nevertheless, if the Government do expressed by road operators and finance not provide the opportunity for people companies about the confiscation provisions. to prove their charges, it leaves the public with a very unsatisfactory impression of Mr. Lloyd: It disregards altogether a man's their administration. I think it is remark­ equity in a vehicle. able that although a number of hon. mem­ Mr. HANLON: That is the point. It would bers were mentioned in the charges made not be so bad, for example, if I were an by Mr. Bolton, only the hon. member for offender who had disposed of a vehicle that Toowoomba East, who made a very short I completely owned, to another party for, statement, took part in the debate. The hon. member for Aspley was also mentioned say, £1,500, and the Government then sought in connection with the prior approbation by to get from me what they were entitled to the Minister of Western Transport's crossing under the Bill. At least I would have the border. The hon. member for Aspley received the £1,500 only recently. But the did not see fit to participate in the debate, position would be entirely different if I had even to the extent of saying, "These things an equity of only £200 or £300 in the are absolutely untrue." Perhaps he had vehicle when I disposed of it. The Govern­ good reason for remaining silent; perhaps ment could seize that vehicle from the buyer he has been instructed by the Government who took it over from me at perhaps not to speak on these matters, but whatever £1,500. The person the Government are his reason, despite the fact that he was entitled to catch up with is not the one from clearly mentioned as a witness in the allega­ whom they confiscated the vehicle but I, who tions, he saw fit not to speak in the debate at no time, had more than a small equity on the introduction of the Bill. in it. What a shocking provision to include in legislation introduced in an allegedly The hon. member for Toowoomba East democratic State! made a very short speech in which he sug­ gested that the matters raised by the Opposi­ It is all right for the Minister to say tion in Parliament should have been the sub­ that this is an effort to get around cases ject of public statements outside. I agree where there are snide practices and where 2000 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill there are only dummy transactions, that is, blamed for that He said that approximately passing the vehicle over and then taking it 20 per cent. of the revenue that is gathered back again. It is something like it is with goes to administering the Act. the Crimes Act; the Minister can justify these things in certain conditions. But we Mr. Chalk: What is the cost of admini­ as a Parliament are not entitled to give stering the Act? him a blank cheque on these matters merely Mr. HANLON: I have not that informa­ to deal with some small snide practice, and tion offhand. to let it develop, because we never know where it is going to finish. Mr. Chalk: You are making a statement without any knowledge of your subject. He came into the House and guffawed at the Leader of the Opposition on several Mr. HANLON: As the Minister said of measures that he introduced when he was himself on the introductory stage when we Minister for Transport and that were held were asking him for information, I am not a to be invalid. In 1957 he told us that he walking encyclopaedia. He has three officers had the key to the border-hopping trouble that I can see sitting within reach of him and that he was going to introduce his Roads and probably about five more outside. The (Contribution to Maintenance) Act. Admit­ hon. member for Bundaberg, I think, asked edly that Act has not been ruled invalid, him how many prosecutions had been made but don't let us imagine that it was the against Western Transport since March this Minister's idea. It was an Act that had year. The Minister at the time was talking been proved and upheld following its intro­ of the large number of prosecutions, and he duction in a southern State. I think it was said to the hon. member, "I am not a walking the Victorian Government who first intro­ encylopaedia." Well, I am not a walking duced it. The Minister raced down to Mel­ encylopaedia either. bourne, got the information on it, and he then introduced it here. It was not his Mr. Chalk: You are making the charges. idea at all. He told us it was going to Mr. HANLON: And the Minister is defend­ catch up with the border-hopper and make ing the charges. No doubt he has the infor­ the interstate operator pay a reasonable share mation relating to them. Why does he not towards the damage that he caused to our appoint a commission so that the full infor­ roads. But what do we find? Since that mation can be given for all to see. From measure was introduced, almost exclusively memory, 20 per cent. of the revenue from the the amount paid by interstate operators goes Roads (Contributions to Maintenance) Act towards the cost of administering the Act. comes from interstate operators and the Mr. Chalk: Babe in the woods. balance from operators within the State, whether they are border-hopping or not. The Mr. HANLON: The rest of it comes from administration of the Act is barely covered operators within the State. The Minister by the return from the interstate operators. says that I am a babe in the woods. Doubt­ less he will get up and read out that such­ Mr. Chalk: That is where I said you were and-such a transport company has paid so a babe in the wood. much. Mr. HANLON: That may be so, but the Mr. Chalk: Keep going. The further you Minister may end up by being the bunny. go, the further you get in. Do not let the Minister imagine that he can shrug off these things merely because Mr. HANLON: The Minister will have his the Government have the numbers; they can­ reply and he can quote the figures. not shrug off public opinion. Mr. Mann: He can swear them on the The Minister said he proposes to utilise Bible. some provisions of the Act in relatiou to consignor and consignee. He claimed when Mr. HANLON: The hon. member for Bris­ introducing the Bill that he is merely trans­ bane suggested that the Minister should swear ferring sections of the Act to this con­ on the Bible when he gives us figures. The solidation. I should not say that is entirely other night, when the charges made by Mr. true. At least he can claim that there were Bolton were raised by the Leader of the similar clauses in the Act, but I do not think Opposition, the Minister concluded his the Minister is justified in using those clauses remarks by reading from the Bible. I should except in extreme circumstances to place the like to say he showed remarkable reluctance onus on a consignor or consignee when to appointing a royal commission, where he illegal road-transport operations are involved. would also have an opportunity of taking I remind him that taxation can be collected the Bible in his hand as would anybody over a period of years under road-transport else charged with these allegations. They legislation, but what is the position when would all then have the opportunity of being somebody challenges that legislation and it is questioned and of taking the Bible before held to be invalid, that is, when it is proved giving evidence. that the tax should never have been collected? The Minister has given us figures showing Do the Government try to find all the con­ the amounts collected under the Roads (Contri­ signors and consignees who over the years bution to Maintenance) Act and if the figures have paid tax that they should never have are wrong I do not suppose we can be been called on to pay? State Transport Bill [1 DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 2001

Mr. Chalk: You ought to know all about concerned about the effect of road com­ that. It happened during the. period your petition on rail transport, why not have Government were in power. separate portfolios for the two fields of transport? If the Government are not pre­ Mr. HANLON: I am asking the Minister pared to go as far as that, the only con­ about it. clusion that can be drawn is that the state­ Mr. Chalk: You ought to know about it. ment is more propaganda than fact. Dr. Delamothe: Wouldn't you think that Mr. Walsh: We had to meet the interstate shows their sincerity? position. You know that. Mr. HANLON: Why should it show their Mr. Chalk: I know, but your Act failed. sincerity? Mr. HANLON: It would be almost impos­ What confidence can the railwaymen have sible for the Government to refund all the in a Minister who is supposed to administer tax that had been paid over a period of years the Railway Department when he is also by a multitude of individual persons who had administering road transport and has openly despatched goods from one city to another. stated in this House that he is going to let They may be able to refund the tax to major the railways "go hang" and let the road­ concerns that keep records of all transactions, hauliers have an open go? but how could they possibly track down the I shall not deal with the individual clauses persons who had consigned parcels from of the Bill, but Clause 6 alone justifies Brisbane to Toowoomba over a period of holding it up until there is some clear five years? It would be an impossible task. indication of what it provides. It says, in The Government cannot have it both ways. effect, that the Minister is going to lay When the tax is ruled to be invalid they say, down policy, and that the Commissioner "It is just bad luck for the person who paid is also going to lay down policy and need it. We cannot find him to give it back to take no notice of the Minister. I do not him. He has to put up with it." But when know what that would mean to any logical they cannot get the tax from the illegal person. If the Minister is going to lay down operator they say, "We cannot get it from policy, the Commissioner has to take notice him, so we will take it off the poor devil who of it. How can we say the Minister is going in all good faith consigns goods, or the one to decide policy but that the Commissioner who receives them." That attitude shows has not to take notice of it, or vice versa? their inconsistency. The Government are This confusion between the powers of the not justified in adopting the consignor-con­ Minister and those of the Commissioner, signee provision. and again, between the powers of the Com­ In relation to the Bill, to a great extent missioner and those of the Deputy Commis­ the Government are sham-fighting. In his sioner was one of the very points raised in introductory speech the Minister claimed that Mr. Bolton's allegations. The Bill provides the Government are facing squarely up to also for delegation of authority by the the transport problem and are not shirking Commissioner. That provision may be useful any of the issues involved. He said, "This if it clears up the confusion that exists is a competitive age and the railways must on when the Commissioner is entitled to compete or retire gracefully from some of the use his powers and when the Deputy Com­ areas." I suggest that is just another facet missioner is entitled to use his. of the fits-and-starts policy of the Government The Bill is terribly confusing. The Minister on road transport and railways. They will said it was introduced after mature con­ take that action and then they will have sideration, yet today he circulated a proposed to amend this legislation. The whole posi­ amendment relating to district courts, circuit tion will be an even greater jumble than courts, and so on. We all make mistakes before. and we are not going to say that a small If the Government are sincere and the thing like that could not be overlooked, but Minister is to demand that the railways com­ when we look at the other clauses concerning pete with road transport, let them show the oowers of the Minister and the Com­ their sincerity by going the whole hog and missioner, we wonder whether those clauses creating two separate portfolios for road trans­ have received the consideration they deserve. port and railways. I do not think it would Mr. Ewan: Do you think they will make be the right thing to do, but if you take to it into a bigger mess than it was before? its logical conclusion the Minister's statement that the time has come to allow road trans­ Mr. HANLON: I am not saying that at port to have an open go in competition with all. We know it has been a mess for the the railways, let the Premier appoint a last four years. The hon. member for Minister for Railways and a Minister for Roma would know about that. Transport. Government Members: Fourteen years. The Minister told us that the Commissioner Mr. HANLON: Members of the Govern­ will no longer be obliged to consider whether ment can say it has been a mess for 14 goods should be carried by road or rail, years, but it has been only during the last except in respect of a limited number of com­ four years that there have been complaints modities and in certain circumstances. If from all sections of the community, particu­ the Commissioner is no longer obliged to be larly road operators and railway employees. 2002 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill

Mr. Ewan: It has been a mess since your to transport, I do not think they need have Government took over Fitzgerald's trucks­ any worry about coming before a royal since you confiscated them. commission. That is why I think the Govern­ ment are doing a disservice to them and to Mr. HANLON: Whatever happened in their own public servants who have been that matter, it certainly would not be any mentioned in not having an inquiry to give more unsavoury than the cancellation of them the opportunity to show that the the Downs licences and the confusion that allegations are not true. followed. After the Government took that step they did not stick to their guns. They Dr. Delamothe: Why should you defend found they were in a mess, and they came yourself against a false accusation? t? a half-baked arrangement that had very httle chance of bringing things back to the Mr. HANLON: Why should an innocent level they wanted. The Government have person charged in court with an offence panicked and are throwing everything over­ defend himself? Why should he not simply board because they have not been able to say to the judge, "Do not bother holding the administer the Act as effectively as it was court. J am innocent; I can tell you that. administered by Labour. There would have I will go off and we will forget all about be.e1! no reason for this measure today if the it."? The Minister and the Government have ongmal Act had been administered-- taken the remarkable attitude on these alle­ gations that they take it upon themselves Government Members interjected. to be at the one time both the accused and Mr. SPEAKER: Order! judge and jury. How can they be? The Minister took it upon himself to endeavour Mr. HANLON: This Bill has been intro­ to answer the charges but all he did was duced because the Government, and make a series of attacks and try to destroy apparently the Minister, are not capable of the character of the person who made them. administering the Act as successfully as it I suppose, as Mr. Bolton made the charges, was administered by Labour. Because of he cannot expect people not to hit back at the problems that have developed over the him, but, if they are going to hit back at last few years, the Government have him under Parliamentary privilege, they panicked. They are bringing home to them­ should give the inquiry he has asked for. selves the results of their delay and their He told the Leader of the Opposition, that if "put-offedness". According to Mr. Bolton's what he said was untrue he deserved to allegation the Premier said to him, "I can't be in gaol, and, if it was true, others should do anything this year; it is election year. be in gaol. Obviously, in bringing the matter Don't come near me this year, because it forward he took the risk of coming out of is too explosive to deal with. Let it go for it very badly himself. For the allegations another year or so." There has been a to be made public and for the Government continual desire on the part of the Govern­ to do nothing about them is not fair to ment over the last three or four years to him or to the Government or to their officers. sidestep the issue, just as their Federal The Government are doing a grave disservice colleagues in Canberra sidestepped issues if they fail to appoint a royal commission. for 10 years and then introduced panic We have no power to move for its appoint­ measures that threw everything out of gear. ment because that would not be in accord­ This Government are in exactly the same ance with Standing Orders, but we have taken position. this opportunity to move that the Bill be Mr. Walsh: If a royal commission is delayed for 12 months so that the Govern­ appointed the hon. member for Roma will ment, on their own initiative, can institute have to be called. an open inquiry into the matter. Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I want to take the opportunity of replying to some of the interjections made by Govern­ Mr. HANLON: I am not particularly ment back-benchers in the closing stages of interested about which hon. member will the debate on the introduction of the Bill. be called. Anybody who does not believe They sought to imply that the Australian he is associated with something wrong in the Labour Party was party to some sort of administration of the department should not plot for political advantage in bringing be worried if he is called. The Leader of Mr. Bolton's charges forward, that it was the Opposition has indicated time and time peddling a lot of vicious charges, and charges again during the last few years that he is that had very little to do with the control not concerned with what sort of inquiry and administration of the Department of is held into transport, whether it takes in Transport. We went to a great deal of the last three years or the last 10 years, trouble to extract from the file brought because he has nothing to hide in his forward by Mr. Bolton only the essential ,administration of the department. Hon. charges, which would be the concern of members opposite are in the same position. a royal commission. For that reason I do Some that were mentioned perhaps did not not think members of the Government Party deserve to be mentioned. They were dragged are entitled to say we are bringing forward by the ears into some of these allegations a lot of smear material of very little value. though perhaps they had very little to do The charges are serious and that is why we with them. As long as they have not been introduced only them and not the other associated with anything wrong in relation material in the file. State Transport Bill (1 DECEMBER} State Transport Bill 2003

We on this side are becoming tired of vehicles, irrespective of the equity of any being told, when we make a positive move, person in such property. That is a very that we are only smear merchants and of serious aspect of this matter and it cannot being told, if we do not make a move, be idly dismissed. that we are a weak Opposition. I could give the analogy of a man con­ Most of the daily newspapers have repre­ victed of S.P. betting, for example. If we sentatives in the Press gallery of the House followed the same logic as has been pro­ listening to all the debates, but one section of vided in this Bill and that man was renting the Sunday Press does not have an observer a house in which to conduct S.P. betting, the here for 90 per cent. of the time, yet it house could be confiscated. It is a very is able to tell the people of the State how serious principle and it is embodied in this the Opposition has fallen down on the job Bill. in one debate or another. We are not worried about that, but we do expect a bit It will not affect wealthy people who can of fair play in a matter of such consequence. pay cash for their trucks. However, as every­ Where we deliberately attempt to confine body who has any experience of truck­ ourselves to essentials, we should not be told owners knows, it would be a safe estimate that we are trying to make capital out of a to say that 99 per cent. of big trucks operat­ smear that is without foundation. ing on the roads are being acquired under hire purchase. If that means of acquiring a For those reasons, I support the amendment vehicle to earn a living is shut off, the reper­ moved by the Leader of the Opposition. cussions will be terrific. Not only will it be Question-That the word proposed to be closed, as has been pointed out in the Press, omitted (Mr. Duggan's amendment) stand to these people who want a heavy vehicle part of the question-put; and the House for the purpose of road transport, but to divided- people who work, say, for the Main Roads AYES, 38 Department. That is quite a common form Mr. Anderson Mr. Jones of investment and is an occupation followed , Armstrong Knox by many people. The hire-purchase companies Beardmore Low fear that those people might convert that " Camp bell " M ads en type of vehicle to use as transport trucks. , Carey ," Morris Chalk , Muller The temptation will be there at the week­ ri~. Delamothe , Munro end at least. As Shakespeare says, "The sight Mr. Dewar , Pilbeam of means to do ill deeds makes ill deeds Evans Rae Ewan ," Ramsden done." Somebody will say, "Will you Fletcher Row run in and get a load of stuff for Gaven Smith me m your truck over the week-end?" Harrison , Su!Jivan It will probably be at a cut rate, but Herbert ,. Taylor Hewitt , Wharton the man who owns the truck will say, "I , Hiley Windsor might as well be doing that as doing noth­ , Hodges ing", or perhaps it will prevent him from , Hoop er Tellers: , Houghton Mr. Hart getting into mischief in a "pub", and he , Hughes , Gilmore will do it. NOES, 23 One can understand the hire-purchase com­ Mr. Adair Mr. Houston panies saying, "Under the Bill it is possible , Bromley , Inch Burrows , Lloyd for a vehicle to be used even in a remote , Byrne M ann way for this purpose, and we cannot take the Davies Marsden risk of financing the purchase of these Davis , Newton vehicles." That aspect of the Bill alone should Dean , Sherrington Donalcl Walsh be sufficient to warrant the Government hav­ , Duflicy ing another look at it to see if they cannot , Duggan in some way get around that difficulty. Graham Tellers: Gunn Mr. Melloy Thackeray I do not think the Government have given Hanlon , this matter the consideration it deserves or PAIRS examined it as thoroughly as they could have Mr. Nicklin Mr. Wallace in relation to its possible effect on the rail­ Dr. Noble Tucker way system of this State and the employment Mr. Richter , Bennett , Tooth , Baxter of a large number of men. No doubt the , Lonergan , Hilton argument will be put forward-and here ,, Pizzey , Diplock again we have an inconsistency-that if Resolved in the affirmative. mines are not economic they should be shut down; that they should be run as a business. Mr. BURROWS (Port Curtis) (3.10 p.m.): If that is going to be the Government's line The Bill will have a very disastrous effect of argument, there are many other activities on the economy of Queensland. It is very besides the railways that do not pay when regrettable that the Government are persist­ they are looked at from the cold-blooded ing with it before they have had enough time point of view of whether the actual receipts to seek advice from outside sources. are greater than the actual expenses. The We read in yesterday's Press of the impli­ railways have a value that is not shown in cations associated with the confiscation of any statement of receipts and expenditure. 2004 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill

But for the railways Queensland would never to these towns with a load of groceries, wire, have been developed to the extent that it has or other commodities required by the local been developed. Are the Governmnt going people and return with back-loading. to throw away this avenue of development Mr. Sullivan: The goods will be delivered and say, "We do not want development of right to their front door. There will be no Queensland. We do not want country double handling. centres. We want to centralise everything in the big cities." If that is their attitude, let Mr. BURROWS: Small country townships them be honest about it. They should not will be wiped out. Even places such as pretend that they believe in decentralisation, Longreach, Barcaldine and Blackall will be in looking after the people in the country, seriously affected. Country stores will lose and encouraging them to stay there. much of the trade, because the goods will be brought directly from the cities. The popu­ Impudent as they are, the Government lation of those districts will fall. The busi­ surely would not have the impudence to claim ness people who will be serving the districts that they have made any contribution what­ will live in Brisbane, and the lorry-driver will ever towards keeping people in country areas, be akin to the teamsters we knew in the old people who are doing a much more useful days who once a fortnight or once a month job than anyone in this Chamber, people brought a load of groceries or supplies to the who are playing a great part in the develop­ station and took away back-loading. Stores ment of Queensland~ It will be a sorry day in Longreach, Barcaldine and even Rockhamp­ for Queensland if the objective of the Govern­ ton will be affected. ment, conscious or otherwise, is ever accom­ plished, and it will be a sorry day for the Mr. Sullivan: Do you say that one transport people who achieve this purpose. They will operator will do as much work in one day then be crying to high heaven and asking as the railway workers? the people to go back and live in the country Mr. BURROWS: The hon. member has areas, asking them to keep the State going already declared himself hostile to the rail­ as they have in the past. way men. I have no doubt he has had a The total disregard and contempt of the quarrel with some railwayman and it has Government for the people who live in become a fetish with him. country areas cause me more concern than No railwayman and no honest worker anything else I have experienced in my will be able to compete with this proposal. career. It appeals to the hon. member because there is no organised labour attached to road Mr. Sullivan: Don't you think the people in transport. the country will be happy with the Bill? A Government Member: Don't look at Mr. BURROWS: They will not. me. Mr. Sullivan: Go out and have a yarn with Mr. BURROWS: If I did, I did not mean them. to. If I was looking for an honest man, I would look at the hon. member first. Mr. BURROWS: I have been out to see them as frequently as the hon. member. I The Bill appeals to hon. members on the admit they are hard to find, because their Government side because it caters for the numbers are growing less and less. The hon. class of men that have no respect for work­ member cannot tell me anything about the ing conditions, standards of living, and country people and their reactions. wages. They are brin:;ing it in and saying it does not matter, but there is no doubt in their hearts. They know it must close Mr. Sullivan: They are getting less in num­ the small railway lines. We have only to ber because of the administration they have read the Press reports, which do not come had over a quarter of a century and the from people opposed to the Government. transport legislation they have had during Even the Press, which loyally supports the that period. Government, has expressed a grave fear and Mr. BURROWS: The hon. member should a grave doubt that the implementation of go to Mt. Perry, where the branch line has this Bill will sound the death-knell of every been closed and ask the people there what branch railway line in Queensland. they think of the Government. Mr. Chalk: What newspaper said that? Many country stores will have to close Mr. BURROWS: If the Minister read the because the people of the areas will be served letters that circulate through "Country Press" from the cities. Lorries will go from the every week he would know what I am talk­ cities and return with back-loading such as ing about. That organisation is operated by wool. I pointed out at the introductory a member of his party, or at least an ardent stage that that is the present practice amongst supporter of it. The day after this Bill was interstate operators. The Bill will make introduced a "Country Press" correspondent conditions easier for them. They will be visualised that only the South-western, legally able to take goods from Brisbane. Central-western, North-western and North They will not have to resort to the subterfuge Coast lines would be operating after it had of going over the border. They will go out been in operation for a few years. State Transport Bill (1 DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 2005

The Government have already engaged a told to sit and they are sitting. There is no firm of experts to report on railway finances. doubt about that. If we could get a broody They are anticipating that report. If it does hen to sit like that we should have no need not endorse their action it will not be of incubators. They are not allowed to published. Conversely, if it supports what speak on the Bill. They have been forbidden has been done it will be published. We to speak. I challenge any of the Govern­ know what has happened to other reports. ment back-benchers who ret)resent country Unless they please the Government and are areas to rise and speak. favourable to them, they are not published, JV!r. Sullivan: I accept that. We won't and I predict that is what will happen to disappoint you. the report on the railways by this American team of experts if it does not please the Mr. BURROWS: I am not concerned about Government. If the Government were the hon. member disappointing me, but I genuine they would at least have deferred am concerned about the disappointment of consideration of the Bill until the receipt of the people who elected him, and expected him the report. If they were honest they would at least to defend their rights. table the report whether it supported the Mr. Sullivan: What do you want us to do­ opinions of members of the Cabinet or not. get up and talk on the Bill? What is the good of reports if they are accepted only when favourable? Mr. BURROWS: Get up and express your views. Mr. Smith: Where does the Bill say any­ thing about that? Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. member will address the Chair. Mr. BURROWS: The hon. member has been asleep for a long while or he has just Mr. BURROWS: I appreciate that, come in. We do not marvel at his sleeping Mr. Speaker, and I am sure I will have for so long but we marvel that he ever a much more intelligent audience. However, woke up. I do not intend to keep the House any longer.

~1r. Smith: I have been waiting in case Mr. MANN (Brisbane) (3.34 p.m.): There you suddenly talked about the Bill. are many aspects of the Bill that the Opposi­ tion do not agree with. One of the main Mr. BURROWS: For the benefit of the provisions is contained in Part IX.-Safety; hon. member. I was suggesting that, in view and reads- of the great possibility of the Bill having a "It shall not be lawful for any person serious effect on the economy of the Railway to operate or cause or permit any person Department and its future, with its consequent employed by him or subject to his orders effect on the people in country areas, the to operate any vehicle having an unladen Government should have deferred its intro­ weight in excess of four tons- duction, or even the consideration of its introduction, until they had received the (a) for any continuous period of more report of the experts. Instead of that, they than five and one-half hours; or are going on with it in the hope-and it (b) for continuous periods amounting will be a vain hope if they get an honest in the aggregate to more than eleven report-that the committee will vindicate the hours in respect of any period of twenty­ tragedy of the Government's actions. four hours commencing at midnight." I ask the Minister through you, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Chalk: Are you accusing the overseas how do the Government and how does the consultants of dishonesty? Commissioner for Transport propose to Mr. BURROWS: No, but I am accusing enforce that clause? If the Bill is imple­ the Government of being politically dishonest. mented there will be operators working round the clock. I challenge the Commissioner or Mr. Chalk: That is all right; I am only his deputy or the Minister or the members asking you. of the Government Party to prove that they will be able to police the Bill. There will Mr. BURROWS: Let the Minister deny it if be continuous operation by employees of he can. The Government have had the operators who receive a permit from the Hytten report and two reports on the har­ Commissioner to operate either in competition bours of Central Queensland. How many with the railways or in areas not served by of those reports have they tabled in the the railways. Under the present system House? And who paid for them? The there is an opportunity to enforce the regu­ taxpayers did! lations. The men are members of the Trans­ Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I ask the hon. port Workers' Union and the organisers know member to confine his remarks to the Bill. the big companies that they work for. Of course, there are and have been border­ Mr. BURROWS: The report on the rail­ hoppers and sly people who have worked ways will not be tabled unless it vindicates their men long hours, but, under the present the Government's action in introducing the system, the main operators roster their men. Bill. I make an appeal to the Minister and The union has an opportnnity of inspecting his Cabinet. It is quite obvious that it is the roster and seeing their hours of employ­ no good appealing to the back-benchers of ment. I challenge the Minister or his Com­ the Government Party because they have been missioner to state how they will police this 2006 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill

provision of the Bill relating to the employ­ Mr. MANN: It will be carried in ment of labour. They will need an army of refrigerated road transport, just as goods are police to do it. I think this is the thin edge carried from New South Wales to Brisbane. of the wedge. They are getting back to the It will not be carried on the railways at all good old Moore Government days of non­ under this Bill. The operators will be given union labour. (Government laughter.) It an open go. is written here that they are to work so many hours in 24. I know the Minister for Under the Act, if the Commissioner for Transport has worked for only one firm, but Transport made a decision and the operator the Minister for Development, Mines, Main or person concerned did not agree Roads and Electricity knows something of with it, he had the right to appeal awards and their operation, and he knows to the Minister, and the Minister how they operate in regard to men who want had the right of veto. I think one to work round the clock. I think this is of the most cowardly provisions in the Bill the thin edge of the wedge to allow non­ is the one that allows the Commissioner to union labour to be employed in these opera­ make a decision and gives no right of appeal tions. There is no provision for policing the to the Minister. The Minister is ducking award. right from under and leaving it to his Com­ missioner. There is nothing to stop him giv­ I couple that with the clause that allows ing the Commissioner certain information a cream carrier to carry his own goods back that will never be divulged, information on over the route over which he has carried which the Commissioner can act. It is a his cream. Does the Minister mean to tell cowardly clause that takes away from the me that if a person lives along the road and Minister the right to veto any decision of any wants something brought back by the cream public servant under his control. carrier he will be above asking him to bring it? The legislation gives the cream carrier Mr. Chalk: It is the same position as you the opportunity to do that. If he is chal­ were in when you were Speaker of the House. lenged by an inspector, he can say they are his own goods, but I believe there will be Mr. MANN: Did you ever hear such a no inspectors there to challenge him. He stupid remark! No wonder the transport will bring small goods, and eventually he system is in such a bungle ~hen we have will bring back bigger goods. such an inane interjection by the Minister. He talks about my actions when I was Mr. Chalk: You disagree with that? Speaker of the House. Mr. Deputy Speaker, you have a good knowledge of how the Mr. MANN: I definitely disagree with it. business of the House is run. It is on the I make no bones about that. basis of the Standing Orders. At least when Mr. Chalk: I just wanted to know. I was Speaker I had the courage to say and do what I wanted to say aiJd do in the Mr. MANN: Under this Bill, business Caucus of the Labour Party. I did not houses are given the right to operate their make a fool of myself like the Minister for own vehicles. The hon. member for Rock­ Development who wants to secede from the hampton South is a great advocate of the Commonwealth. The Minister for Transport building of a road to Port Alma, and it will should be the last one to interject or talk be an asset to the town. But under the pro­ about what I did when I was Speaker. visions of this Bill all the back-street opera­ Mr. Evans: It is true what I said. tors will be able to carry meat down to Port Alma. Mr. MANN: I do not want to be side­ Mr. Pilbeam: Refrigerated trucks. tracked by unethical interjections. I was saying that it is cowardly in the extreme for Mr. MANN: Yes. They will not allow any Minister to give away his veto powers the licensed hauliers to carry it. They will to some tall poppy in the public service. He carry it themselves. can tell him what to do under the lap, the public servant will do it, but then there is no Mr. Cl!alk: Do you disagree with that, chance of appealing from his decision. The too? whole thing is outrageous and is one of the Mr. MANN: I do not want the Minister biggest weaknesses in the Bill. The Commis­ to misunderstand my statements. I want him sioner for Transport will be the Czar of the to understand that I am saying he has given transport system. an open go to every one on the road to carry his own goods, and to carry them The Commissioner has power to delegate without being policed. I know I cannot his powers to people throughout the State. bring the railways into the debate because It is possible that he will make the Inspector they are not tied up with this Bill, but of Police or sergeant-in-charge in every town they ought to be. This is the first blow dealt the local transport officer to whom he will to the railways. I lived in Rockhampton and delegate his powers. That police officer will worked on the wharves, and all the frozen have the power to issue or refuse licences. meat from Lakes Creek was carried to Port If I were out of Parliament I can just imagine Alma by the railways. what could happen if I went to the police officers in some of the towns! If I wanted Mr. Pilbeam: It still will be. a licence I would have to put up with it, but State Transport Bill [1 DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 2007

I will not be applying for a transport licence! goods and I have replied to the hon. member That is the position that can arise, and it for Rockhampton who interjected that refri­ is absolutely wrong. A police officer should gerated railway cars will still be running never be empowered to act for the Commis­ from the meatworks to Port Alma. I can sioner for Transport and be in the position assure him that meatworks transport will be of being able to refuse or issue licences to doing that job. It will not be cheaper but whomever he chooses. It is completely wrong they will apply to the police inspector at and should never be allowed. The Minister Rockhampton for a licence to run their own should retain this power but I know what refrigerated trucks in competition with the he is thinking of. I know that the Treasurer railways, and if this Bill goes through, the has cracked the whip over him, in the same line from Bajool to Port Alma will be way as he has cracked it over the whole another one to be closed down. front bench. From the silence of hon. mem­ lVIr. Jones: It is too long since you have bers opposite, particularly Country Party been up there. You are out of step with members, it is obvious that the Treasurer has the position. cracked the whip in his effort to balance the budget. They think that this is the way Mr. MANN: I should be very glad to they will do it, but they will make an unholy know that I am out of step and that it is mess of it. They have not taken the rail­ not the intention of the Government to ways into consideration at all. I know, Mr. close the line from Bajool to Port Alma. Deputy Speaker, that you will not allow me I should also be glad to know that they are to bring the railways into it, but they are not going to close the line from Rockhampton part and parcel of the transport system. The to Rannes and Biloela, because I feel it is Bill will give the Commissioner for Transport another line that is not paying and that, if power to declare certain goods. this Bill comes into operation, it will be Mr. Jones: You are judging us by your closed. own capacity. The Opposition feel that the Bill is very badly conceived and very badly drawn, and Mr. MANN: I have looked at the hon. that the Government's advice on many of member long enough and heard many stories its clauses has been very bad. For the life about him and his pig-breeding business, but of me I could not agree to many of its they have not been half as bad as some of provisions. As the Leader of the Opposition the things Mr. Bolton has said about hon. said, we feel that in addition to the many members opposite. hundreds of railwaymen who have been Mr. Chalk: Be fair. sacked already, if this Bill becomes operative many more hundreds will be sacked. to the Mr. MANN: I am being very fair. We detriment of the nation's economy. We think are pointing out from this side why the Bill the Government threw out a sprat to catch should not be passed. The whole thing is a mackerel, but they will catch only a sardine. very unfair. Clause 4 makes provision for terminating the licences presently held. The Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (3.49 p.m.): The Leader of the Opposition said that they are Minister would be very disappointed if I did being repudiated. Thirty days after the not make a contribution to this debate. In passage of the Bill the licences presently held some respects, however, by the time I have by operators will be cancelled, when they finished he will be sorry that I got to my will have to go to the transport Czar to apply feet. for further licences to carry on their busi­ In his second-reading speech, the Minister nesses. I feel very bitter about the whole brushed the matter over as being more or matter. Clause 12 gives the Commissioner less unimportant to the extent that he did all the powers I have referred to and no not see fit to even give the recently-elected decision of his can be vetoed or appealed members of this House a history of the against. It is an outrageous position. If development of transport legislation in this the Opposition introduced such legislation, State. Government members would say we got the Mr. Chalk: What did I do at the idea from Russia. For the life of me I introduction? cannot understand why Country Party mem­ bers-! can understand the Liberal section Mr. WALSH: All I can remember the doing it-should allow this Bill to go through Minister doing at the introduction was some­ and give the Commissioner for Transport the thing I have never known any other Minister whole say on transport matters in this State. to do in this Assembly, that is, attack As I say, there can be no appeal to the individuals in their private capacities. If Minister or any veto by him. the Minister looks at his introductory speech, he will see that he did not give much of a Mr. Sullivan: We are very happy about survey of the development of transport legis­ it. lation in this State. I am not going to give Mr. MANN: I do not think hon. members much of it in my limited time of 40 minutes, on the other side will be happy for too but I will be able to give some of it. long. Country Party members will not be The Minister said this morning that the very happy in the coming year. Bill had been received very favourably by I have already spoken about licences being outside people. Apparently the basis for his given to individual firms to carry their own statement is the fact that the case he made 2008 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill

out for it has been widely publicised by the He proceeded to induge in quite a few per­ metropolitan and provincial Press, whereas sonalities later, when he took up three hours little space has been devoted by the same of a five-hour speech in attacking Cobb & Co. Press to the Opposition attacks on the Government and the Minister. His statement continued- "But I do want to mention on my own Mr. Chalk: The Press must not have thought behalf that I have the greatest confidence it was worth while. possible in the present Transport Commis­ Mr. WALSH: That is a matter for the sioner, Mr. Norman Kropp." Press. To some extent the Press probably Mr. Chalk: And I have. were somewhat fearful of dealing with any­ thing relating to the controversial side, in Mr. WALSH: He went on- view of the fact that the Government have "During his term of office he has been seen fit, apparently at public expense, to take fearless in his administration." out a writ that muzzles the Press. If the The Minister said he still has. Minister could muzzle hon. members in this Chamber, he would. Fortunately we still live Mr. Chalk: I have. in a democracy, and members of Parliament can speak freely. Mr. W ALSH: Does the Minister remember saying- If the Minister has any doubt that the " As a result of my inquiries and the measure has been received favourably, let me advice tendered during the visits to which tell him that I have received a number of I have referred " telegrams from persons who specifically lodged He mentioned them during the course of the objections to Clauses 6, 49 and 53 of the Bill. debate- All these telegrams support the protest by the Chamber of Automotive Industries of Queens­ . . . and in the light of a little over land. I know I have received only a small three years' experience as Transport Minis­ number compared with the number received ter, I am prepared to say today that I am by Government members and other Opposi­ satisfied that the 1946 Act has been proved tion members. to have the following shortcomings:-" I am not misquoting the Minister. Mr. Chalk: I have a stack of them. Mr. Chalk: No, I said that. Mr. W ALSH: The Minister says he has a stack of them, yet he has the hide to get up Mr. W ALSH: His statement continued- and tell us that the measure has been received "1. General licences for goods transport favourably. I received a telegram from Super have, with a few exceptions, been confined Auto of Bundaberg, another from Fawkes to routes radiating from Queen Street. Round and Murchie Pty. Ltd. Very little consideration has been given to country centres; in fact, I believe it could Mr. Chalk: Bundaberg. be said that under the system as we know Mr. WALSH: Yes, Bundaberg, and one it country licensing has been virtually from the West End garage. ignored." In the first place the Minister says he has Mr. Chalk: Bundaberg. complete confidence in the Commissioner for Mr. W ALSH: Bundaberg, for sure. Another Transport. I have no reason for saying from Stewart Bros. Motors. anything to the contrary; I am simply taking the Minister's statement. Having said what I Mr. Chalk: Bundaberg, too? have just quoted, the Minister found he had made a mistake, and wanted to impress on Mr. WALSH: Yes, and they have transport this House that he had complete confidence licences also, if the Minister wants to know. in the Commissioner for Transport. How Mr. Chalk: I know that. could he honestly say that he had complete confidence in the Commissioner when, as he Mr. W ALSH: I hope the Minister does knew, under the 1946 State Transport Facili­ not get them "in the gun," as he has Bolton ties Act the Commissioner, subject only to and Cobb & Co. confirmation or veto on the part of the I received a further telegram from Wyper Minister, had complete power to make any Bros., one of the oldest firms in Bundaberg, decision that he thought fit regarding the another from Baker's Service Station, another issue of new licences? So the Minister has from The Farmers' Centre, which has very charged a man in whom he says he had wide ramifications throughout Queensland, complete confidence with failing to give apart from Bundaberg. I list those as protests effect to the law as it stood. from my electorate against the measure. Mr. Chalk: You are a greater twister than In his introductory speech the Minister I thought you were. said- Mr. WALSH: There is nothing twisted "I do not propose to go into personalities about that. It is plain logic. I realise that on this matter as such has never been in the Minister does not understand, or does the mind of the Government. . . ." not want to accept, what I am saying. State Transport Bill [1 DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 2009

The Minister cannot deny that it was Minister now has the power to issue direc­ within the powers of the Commissioner for tions to the Commissioner, or, to put it quite Transport under the 1946 Act to issue clearly, as it appears in the Bill the Com­ licences anywhere in Queensland. He could missioner shall have regard to any directions have issued another 20 or 50 licences, if he issued by the Minister. had desired, in competition with Western Mr. Chalk: On policy. Complete the whole Transport or Cobb & Co., or any of the thing. other licensed services operating in the south-eastern division. Therefore, his charge Mr. WALSH: All right, what is policy? that under the 1946 legislation all these What does the Minister suggest is policy? licensed services radiated from Queen Street The Minister is to have power to issue direc­ must be laid against the Commissioner. tions to the Commissioner. One provision that is not written into the Bill-I think it Mr. Chalk: Not a scrap. should be-is that any such directions given Mr. WALSH: I do not know what the by the Minister should be in writing. They Minister is going to say in defence of that, should be recorded on the files of the Trans­ for the Commissioner has complete power. port Department so that a position will not arise similar to the one that arose in the Mr. Chalk: You wait and see. case of the court hearing, when it was brought out by the Commissioner himself Mr. WALSH: If the Minister is going to that there were certain notes in the hand­ tell this House that the Commissioner was writing of the Minister, but they could not be subject to political interference-- found. Therefore I have every reason to be Mr. Chalk: Not a scrap. You would like suspicious of a power that is to be given to to make that out. the Minister to give directions to the Com­ missioner and, if there is no protection in the Mr. WALSH: Very good. We have an Act to say that the directions shall be admission from the Minister that the Com­ properly recorded in the files of the depart­ missioner was not subjected to political ment and shall be available at all times, there influence, or political interference. That is a distinct weakness. The attitude of mind being the case, he has now admitted that the of the Minister, whether he likes it or not, is Commissioner has failed to carry out his indicated by his own remarks in the House, duties under the transport legislation. that in any case where he feels he must get level with the individual applicant for a Mr. Chalk: You are a greater twister than permit, as against the licensed services, he I thought you were. will do everything possible to see that that Mr. WALSH: Legislation cannot be twisted, person is not given any rights. If I am to and I am not twisting it. The Minister judge the Minister on his attack on Bolton knows I cannot. The Minister knows the for almost three hours, and the way he went Commissioner has the power to grant these about it, which was a disgrace to him in his licensed services. Ministerial position, all I can say is, God help any man who cuts across his policy in Mr. Chalk: That is quite true. the future. Mr. W ALSH: Very good. There is the Then we had the evidence contained in substance of my statement. The Minister has the documents that were tabled, that a the hide to say that the existing legislation responsible Minister, the Minister for Justice, failed because the licensed services radiated had said that you could not select a from Queen Street! Having pinned him on particular candidate, Y eates, as the Liberal that-- candidate because he was the solicitor, or a friend, of Cobb & Co. This appears to Mr. Chalk: You have not pinned me; don't be the collective outlook of Ministers, who "kid" yourself. think alike with the Minister for Transport. Mr. WALSH: On the introductory stage Mr. Chalk: Do you believe the dossier? the Minister continued- Mr. WALSH: It is not a question of "In the new approach to transport the whether I believe it. When the matter of Government are seeking to establish the the Golden Casket came up, the Minister following principles:- made enough noise about it here, and his (a) That all areas of the State receive smelling apparatus was so good at that time fair and equal treatment in road trans­ that he could even smell the ink. When port matters. he got into the witness box, what a holy "I have said that under the Act most of show he made of himself. That is why I the licences were for routes radiating from say that, having regard to what he has been the metropolitan area. The Government saying about previous Labour administra­ say that all areas of the State must receive tions, he is one member of this Assembly fair and equal treatment." who certainly would not like to go into the witness box. How could that be, when certain powers are written into this legislation? Quite distinct Mr. Chalk: That is your idea. from the powers that were conferred on the Mr. WALSH: Not my idea at all. The Minister under the 1946 legislation, the charges contained in the documents that 2010 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill have been tabled are such that there is Mr. W ALSH: There is no question about £1,000,000 worth of criminal libel in them that. The Government have done very little if they are not true. with the part of the 1946 Act relating to water transport or the part relating to air Mr. Chalk: Plenty of time. transport. The part relating to road passen­ Mr. W ALSH: It is not a question of there ger licensed services has been preserved by being plenty of time. The Minister knows, giving it a special part and re-enacting the as I know, even with my little experience, charges that were contained in the Act. that when it comes to a court hearing the :Mr. Chalk: I am not denying that. rules of evidence apply and specific limits will be put on anybody who seeks to make Mr. WALSH: Most of the alterations have charges or reply to charges. The Minister been made in the part that relates specifically knows, too, that royal comm1sswns give to permits issued for the carriage of goods plenty of scope for every investigation. as distinct from passengers. Another part That is why I say emphatically that the of the Bill provides for vehicles plying for Government have something to hide. No hire to be licensed, but that is only splitting government in the history of Australia would up the provisions of the Act. The only have had levelled at them as many charges difference is that under the Act a vehicle as are contained in the documents tabled had to be approved, and under the Bill it by the Leader of the Queensland Labour will have to be licensed. Where a vehicle Party. was approved, the service was licensed, and the licensed service applied to the individual. Mr. Chalk: Have you never heard of Under the Bill the individual, if he is lucky Somerville Smith? enough, will get a permit as distinct from Mr. WALSH: I have heard of Somerville his right to operate a licensed service. Smith and I have heard of Gordon Chalk, I think it is a tribute to our parliamentary too-my word I have-and the Casket draftsman, particularly to Mr. Seymour, who inquiry and a few others, and I do not had so much to do with the drafting of the know that Gordon Chalk is any different 1946 Act and legislation prior to that, that from Somerville Smith, having regard to his over the years since 1946 the main principles statement here when he exercised the in the Act have never been amended. The privilege of Parliament just as he did in Leader of the Opposition had to bring down the lands case, every inch of the way, on several amendments of a machinery nature charges that were eventually proved to be while he was Minister for Transport, particu­ false, emanating, as they did, from the larly because of the operations of A.N.A., Senate, which were the basis of the royal T.A.A., and so on. When the border-hoppers commission; nevertheless the Labour Govern­ began operating, several amendments were ment of the day kept its word and pro­ brought down to deal with them, and the ceeded with the appointment of the royal Minister brought down one amendment trans­ commission. ferring the licensing of taxicabs from the Department of Main Roads to the Transport Mr. Jones: You have to admit you are a Commission. As the parliamentary drafts­ bad judge. You did not thinf Salter would man knows, that proposal was made in 1946, get as close to you as he did. but was rejected at that time. No matter :Mr. W ALSH: It does not matter how close how much we may sometimes cavil at the he got. I am still here. work of the parliamentary draftsman, it is the equal of the work of any other parlia­ Mr. Jones: I will bet you a fiver you are mentary draftsman in Australia. The Minis­ not here next time. ter would know that the Victorian legisla­ tion that was enacted after the Privy Council Air. WALSH: I am here now, much to decision was based largely on the Act drafted the regret of the hon. member for Callide by Mr. Seymour and his assista!]Js in Queens­ and many other hon. members sitting on land. Again I say that it is a tribute to the Government benches. I will live to see the day when the hon. member rearets his them. association with members of the"' Liberal Apart from the Minister getting his way Party. and -getting back at Cobb and Co., or Bolton -and that is all that has emanated from There is no question that this Bill will him-not only will the provisions of the Bill have a very wide effect on the economy of have a great effect on the activities of the big the State and the welfare of the people. After having looked at the measure very care­ operators but it is also going to have a detri­ ful.ly and having gone through previous legis­ mental effect on many of the small opera­ latwn, I remarked after the Minister's intro­ tors, the people who may become members duction of the Bill that apparently all he had of the Master Carriers' Association, for done in the Bill was turn some of the language example. Does he not realise that over the round. I stand by that. With the exception years these men have invested a considerable of the provisions relating to permits for amount of capital in trucks and the equip­ goods services-- ment necessary to enable them to carry on their businesses? The Minister's proposal Mr. Chalk: You say that we have rehashed is that he will open it up sufficiently wide your Act? that Thomas Brown and Sons Ltd., Dalgety State Transport Bill (1 DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 2011 and Co. Ltd.,-and even with some limita­ Mr. WALSH: The hon. member is in the tiGns the breweries-will be able to go on agency selling business. He might be able to the road with their own vehicles and com­ build up a market on that basis. I am more pete with those who have been making a concerned about the principle, and it is a bona-fide living out of carrying up until now. matter that the Government should consider. The Minister cannot deny that. That is one After all, there are changed conditions com­ effect of it. I realise that although he may pared with when the power was first brought have some ground for his approach to this in many years ago. monopoly business, nevertheless, as pointed Mr. Chalk: You are trying to wriggle again. out by the Leader of the Opposition, the problem could have been overcome by the Mr. WALSH: I am not wriggling; I am issue of more licences. The Minister cannot trying to be reasonable. I have in no way tell the Assembly that there was no power condemned the power of seizure because I for the Commissioner to issue another 10, have admitted it has been in the law for 20, 30, 40, or 50 licences without limitation quite a long time and that it has been exer­ in any one of these areas. He knows that cised. is so. If he wants to come in with reasons Mr. Ewan interjected. why that was not done, he had better get the Commissioner to explain it to him. Mr. WALSH: The hon. member for Roma might know that his own party brought it in, Most of the telegrams coming to hon. or supported it. members have dealt with the seizure clauses of the Bill. I think they are Clauses 6, 49, Mr. Challi: Who were the Government? and 53. I realise that the power of seizure Mr. WALSH: Never mind who were the has been in the legislation for a long time. Government; it was a question of who applied Mr. Ewan interjected. it and who tried to make so much noise about a carrier somewhere on the North Mr. WALSH: I shall give the House all of Coast named Evans. I remember it. His that story too, but not in the way that the vehicle was seized and he was featured by hon. member for Roma would tell it. The the Country Party, then in Opposition, as a Minister will tell everyone who has spoken poor struggling haulier, until the late Mr. on th.at subject today, that this power has Fallon, who was then campaign director for been m the Act for so long, but is he going the Labour Party made some investigations to tell us whether the Moore Government and found that he was the owner of consider­ brought it in or whether the Labour Govern­ able assets-picture shows and land, and ment brought it in? It will be interesting to everything around the place. know that. It comes to my memory that this power was first exercised 22 years ago. Mr. Chalk: Not unlike Bolton. While all of that may be true, one has to Mr. WALSH: That does not matter. It concede that the ramifications of hire pur­ was the Country Party who threw it into the chase, as it relates to the financing of the political arena. I could understand the purchase of this s

The Leader of the Opposition and the efficiency of the railway service and advise hon. member for Bundaberg said this morn­ the Government on ways and means of ing that Western Interstate, my associate firm, co-ordinating the services to improve the has had benefits from the Government, that running of the railways. The question is it has not been fined enough, and not as just how far commercial road transport can second offences. Fifty per cent. of those be allowed to enter into competition with summonses will be second offences. The the railways, taking into consideration that other companies, that is, Cobb & Co. and the railways are built and maintained at pub­ Browns, have not had summonses issued lic expense and that the profits of road trans­ against them. Why? I should like to know port find their way into the pockets of a that, too. limited number of people at the expense of But, reading through Bolton's dossier, it Government-owned utilities. seems that there has been an agreement and that h~ has broken it. That is the type of man we have to compete with. He was Some years ago Mr. Wills, when Commis­ granted those benefits or concessions seem­ sioner for Railways, made some very interest­ ingly when his licence was reinstated. ing comments along these lines, and on We do not understand why we have numerous occasions he raised suggestions been penalised. Many others have that are worthy of consideration. It is a pity been penalised, too, because they have that they have not been considered more broken the law. If you break_ the law you fully by the Government. We fear that road must be penalised. It should not be for­ transport will be unlimited as a result of this gotten, though, that the summonses were Bill. At present transport services run to mainly before the Harris case, and nobody various towns along the coast, and a service knew till the Harris case was decided by the has been running to Gympie for a number court what was legal and what was illegal. of years, although no intrastate services have We were getting summonses prior to the run to Maryborough. We realise, also, that Harris case, and I presume we will get many there has been a good deal of illegal trans­ more. Naturally, we will fight them, because port of goods by what are known as border­ we all have to fight for our rights and defend hoppers. We realise what would happen to ourselves. That is why I have risen this the railway set-up in Maryborough, as well afternoon to defend myself, my company, my as in other parts of the State, if road trans­ brother, and anybody connected with my firm port were allowed to enter the city from the who may be associated with the accusations North and South Burnett and from Brisbane. contained in the dossier issued by Mr. Bolton That competition would result in the dis­ and put forward by members of the Oppo­ missal of many men from the railway service. sition. We deny those charges. We will If road transport services were interested in fight, if we have to, against Mr. Bolton or the cartage of all types of goods we could anybody else, but we will fight cleanly, as say that the competition would be fair to some every person should. d~gree, but we know that they have been, and Government Members: Hear, hear! still are, concerned solely with the cream of the traffic. They are not concerned with the Mr. ANDERSON: The main thing we are cartage of the cheap-freighted goods that the interested in is the development of Queens­ railways have to carry. They would not be land, and we intend to assist in that develop­ able to compete with rail transport had they ment. This Bill will be carried, and we will to carry that type of goods. In the last endeavour to carry out its provisions and at couple of decades there have been times least give it a fair trial before condemning when we would have hoped that the road­ it. If the Bill proves unsatisfactory, I believe transport operators would have been wil­ that the Government are big enough to ling to enter into the carriage of some of amend it at a later stage. That is why I these low-freight goods, but they have never am so pleased to belong to this Government, been willing to. Instead, it has been a race who have done so much for the development to carry the goods that attract high freights. of Queensland. Fertilisers, coal and other such products have been left to the railways, which are Mr. DAVIES (Maryborough) (5.7 p.m.): indispensable to the State. We could ground Representing one of the important railway every aeroplane overnight and stop all the centres in Queensland, I wish to add my pro­ road-transport companies operating, but the tests to those of the Leader of the Opposi­ commercial life of the State would flow on tion in opposing this Bill and to expres~ quite evenly. But shut down the railways regret that the Government did not see fit tt for several days and we know the economic accept the amendment to postpone the Bill chaos that would follow. Surelv it is not for a year, which was beaten by weight of necessary to emphasise the fact that we numbers. cannot afford the luxury-if I could put it that way-of unlimited road transport. We Hon. members on this side of the Chamber fear that the Minister has got his depart­ are wondering why there is such haste and ment into such a muddle with road trans­ rush to pass this Bill after the Government port that he is hoping that by registering have been four years in office. The Govern­ as many companies and individual operators ment must realise that there is something as he can attract the department will reap wrong, otherwise they would not be employ­ so much in fees that it will more than make ing an American firm to inquire into the up for what he will lose in the Railway State Transport Bill [1 DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 2019

Department. But he must be prepared to increased speed with which perishable goods admit that at the present time the Govern­ are taken from the city to those places. ment are unable to control the illegal I should have been pleased to hear the activities of border-hoppers and other truck Minister tell us how perishable goods placed operators. The Government have found it on a passenger train in Brisbane will reach impossible to police these activities, so if Rockhampton in a certain time. It is road transport is to be increased what pos­ questionable if road transport could get them sible chance have they of policing the there any faster. In any case, people are able increased number of hauliers? When we to store in advance non-perishable goods these are discussing the various clauses in Com­ days, so what difference would a couple of mittee, the clause relating to the-- hours make compared with the upset to our Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. mem­ transport system and the risk to the railway ber cannot discuss clauses at the second­ system in particular? I am not speaking reading stage. about those centres that have no railway service but of the competition along the Mr. DAVIES: I am discussing it only railway lines to various centres. With motor from the point of view of policing the Act. traffic generally increasing on our roads, we The department cannot police the Act at are taxing our resources to the utmost with the present time. What chance will there the money available to keep them in good be when road-transport traffic becomes shape in all weather conditions for the heavier? How will the department be able ordinary motor traffic which, as I say, is to check on the types of goods carried­ increasing at a tremendous rate. Motor whether they attract the 3d., 2d. or Id. vehicles are almost doubling in number each rate? We have found that we cannot rely decade. That in itself poses a tremendous on the integrity of many of the road problem. I agree with the comment by the hauliers. We have already had evidence of Commissioner for Railways, Mr. Wills, in their border-hopping activities. But the 1945 when he said- Minister is going to find that transport "How far commercial road transport in generally will develop into a greater muddle competition with railways should be per­ than ever. Eventually, possibly because of mitted to continue is a matter for serious the amalgamation of interstate concerns, we will find that companies, like Western Inter­ consideration." state, Cobb & Co., and some of the others It is incredible that the Government should that the previous speaker said are keeping admit that they have been unable to control faith with the Government, will be the first and police road transport. We realise that to suffer as a result of the greater freedom many problems are associated with our trans­ given to road transport by the Bill. I am port system generally. Those road hauliers certain that the competition will be such who do pay tax may put a certain amount that they. as well as the people in the rail­ into the upkeep of our roads, but we know wavs, will suffer. As the Leader of the it does not compensate for the huge cost Op{JOsition and other speakers on this side of their construction and maintenance. have said, the 29,000 men employed in the railways of this State are our main con­ It should not be forgotten that the rail­ cern. We have heard of the 800 men who ways carry goods, mostly at an uneconomic have been dismissed in the last 12 months, rate, particularly in times of drought or flood, and the Minister said there would possibly yet when they have to buy the things they be another 500 shortly. We feel that the use they buy mostly from private enterprise welfare of the men employed in the rail­ at top prices. ways at the present time should be our Airlines are heavily subsidised. A.N.A. is first consideration, and we cannot see any a case in point. Harbours are maintained great necessity for further road transport either by harbour boards with Government in this State. assistance or directly by the Government, As I say, we have not got the suitable and tremendous sums of money are spent roads or the money to expend huge sums to provide suitable conditions for shipping. building ideal roads to cater for a All those matters should be kept in mind by th~ public when they are considering the tremendous increase in road transport. What railways as a public utility. is the great necessity to have non-perishable goods rushed long distances over the State I should have thought the Government when they can be carried adequately by would have widened the debate so that the rail? I think the Minister should have whole subject of transport could have been defended the railways particularly in view considered. The problems arising under the of the tremendous deficits, amounting to legislation relate not to one section of trans­ £6,000,000 on running costs and, with the port but to transport in all its ramifications. intt"rest, to over £17,000,000 in three years. All the thought that has gone into the pre­ paration of the Bill has been directed to one Mr. SPEAKER: Order! point, that is, the profit or the deficit of the department at the end of th~ financial year. Mr. DAVIES: I think the Minister should That matter should be linked, of course, with have come to the defence of the railway the desire of a Government to give service. service and pointed out that over the years They claim that the Bill will in some way the efficiency of the service to people in assist the Minister or the department to di~tant places has improved because of the make a profit, instead of the- deficit that 2020 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill has been shown during the last three years. Mr. DAVIES : I move­ In the 10-year administration of the depart­ "That I be further heard." ment by the Leader of the Opposition a profit on running costs was shown in Question-That the hon. member for three years-nearly £1,000,000, £500,000 Maryborough be further heard (Mr. Davies's and £250,000. A profit has not been motion)-put; and the House divided- shown in the last four years. The rail­ AYES, 21 ways are a public utility that should Mr. Adair Mr. Inch not be expected necessarily to make a profit , Baxter Lloyd or a surplus such as will enable it to meet , Burrows , lviann Byrne , Melloy the interest bill. It should not be viewed , Davies , Sherrington in the same way as the Commonwealth Dean , Thackeray Government view the Post Office. , Donald Walsh Dufficy The Minister could have taken the oppor­ Duggan Tellers: tunity to enlighten the public on a]] the Gunn Hanlon Mr. Newton problems of transport. He could have Houston , Marscten pointed 01_1t th~~ the Railway Department IS a public utJlrty such as the Education NOES, 39 Department and the Police Force and exists Mr. Anderson Mr. Knox prir.nari!Y to give service to the people and , Armstrong M ads en , Beardmore Morris assist rn the development of the State. , Campbell MUller Thos:e probl.ef!JS shou!d have been emphasised , Carey .Munro by the Mm1ster with a view to a full , Chalk , Nicklin understanding by the public. Dr. Delamothe Dr. Noble Mr. Dewar Mr. Pilbeam yv'_hen the mot.or-car came along the general , Evans Rae , Ewan Ramsden opunon was voiced that the horse and cart F!etcher Smith had to ?e superseded.. With further develop­ , Gaven Sullivan !llents m. the motonng field and with the , Gilmore , Tay!or mtroductwn of diesel engines the opinion , Harrison Tooth , Hart Wharton seems. to be that rail transport must go. , Herben Windsor That Idea, although prevalent shows a lack Hewitt of. .under~tanding of the position. The , Hooper Tellers: Mm!ster, mstead of spending a great deal , Houghton , Hughes Mr. Hodges of time on other matters, should have given Jones , Row a ~l_earer picture of the whole transport positiOn. PAIRS Mr. Hilton Mr. Lonergan Mr. Mann: Do you think the Minister , Diplock , Pizzey wants to close the railways down? Davis Low Tucker Richter Wallace Roberts Mr. DAVIES: I do not want to introduce , Hiley that controversial subject at present. I Bennett emphasised that point previously, and I do Resolved in the negative. not want to do so again. Hon. G. W. CHALK (Lockyer-Minister The Minister spoke of the Leader of the Opposition as being a "knocker of the rail­ for Transport) (5.33 p.m.), in reply: During ways." When the Minister was in Opposition the whole of the debate on the second reading, I can remember several occasions when he I have listened attentively in an endeavour brought up something about the Mary­ to discover what might be regarded as the borough transport centre. His allegations real criticism of the Opposition to the Bill. were not factual. He was always regarded I think it is fair to say that the entire debate as one of the greatest "knockers" of the at this stage has followed the pattern laid railway service. I draw attention to the down by the Leader of the Opposition. He comment of the hon. member for Condamine used most of the time allowed him, but said a little while ago when he said that trans­ very little in criticism of the Bill. Firstly, port workers-- he criticised the appointment of Ford, Bacon and Davis to inquire into the affairs of the Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. mem­ Railway Department and then he criticised ber will either stick to the principles of the the EBASCO report, which was prepared Bill or discontinue his speech. for the New South Wales Government on the railways in that State. It is significant that Mr. Ramsden: You are not making a he did not quote the authority who told him good job of it. that the EBASCO report was a failure. He Mr. DAVIES: I cannot believe that the then tried to bolster up his own prestige hon. member for Merthyr would make a by quoting what the former Leader of the statement such as the hon. member for Opposition, now the Premier, said in 1951 Condamine made about railway workers, that about his administration of the Department of is, that road hauliers work harder than rail­ Transport. He is entitled to do that, and way workers. I accept his word because I have not had an opportunity d checking what he quoted. Mr. SI'EAKER: Order! I ask the hon. He then wc:nt a little further and quoted member to discontinue his speech. a statement that he attributed to me, also State Transport Bill [ltDECEMBER] State Transport Bil 2021 made in 19 51, relating to interstate transport. indicate the income and the amount of tax I do not withdraw that statement. I believe paid by that person. I have here a balance that when the statement was made in 1951, sheet bearing the stamp and signature of it was true. Not only was it true, but it was Rawlings, Bolton & Company, accountants, also most important, because at that time which sets out clearly the profit made by there were transport difficulties and it was Bolton's transport firms during the year necessary that the movement of goods from 1954. Firstly it indicates a net profit of the South to Queensland should be facilitated £98,892, but then it proceeds to point to enable the State to progress. Consequently, out that it is necessary to show as I can see no basis for argument against the a profit a sum of £120,607, because the Bill in the Leader of the Opposition's simply balance sheet had to be "doctored"-or, quoting something that was applicable in to use the word here, "adjusted"-for income­ 1951. tax purposes. There is a clear indication that the transport interests of this person returned The hon. member then proceeded to make £120,607 for the 12 months, on which income what he described as something of an tax was paid to the extent of £30,939. Is attack on bureaucracy. He endeavoured to the Leader of the Opposition going to allow prove to the House that the removal from the wool to be pulled over his eyes? I the Act of the Minister's power of veto placed know that with companies it is possible to the administration of the Act wholly in the arrange shares and allow certain profits to hands of the Commissioner for Transport. remain in the companies so that they will I say to the House that there is very little 'not come within the jurisdiction of the difference between the position now and the Income Tax Commissioner. But no-one can position that will exist when this Bill becomes tell me that this company, or this person, is law. The Leader of the Opposition knows adopting this method of fighting for the reten­ how much work is involved for the Minister tion of the licence all because of the £2,000 in stamping and confirming every decision or £3,000 a year that the Leader of the of the Commissioner, no matter how trifling it may be. Because that work devolved Opposition would have us believe was too much on the Leader of the Opposition Bolton's income. People do not fight like when he was Minister for Transport, quite Kilkenny cats over peanuts. I showed what a lot of it was avoided, and, because of the the shareholding of this man was in 1954. findings of the court, it was necessary for Consequently, his interests are much greater this Government to bring in a Bill ratifying than the Leader of the Opposition would many of the decisions made by the Com­ have us believe. That is all I propose to missioner for Transport that should have say about that at the present time. received the rubber stamp of the Leader of The Leader of the Opposition tried to have the Opposition in his position as Minister for the House believe that I was evasive in Transport. In this Bill we are removing from replying to a question asked- by the hon .. ministerial control matters that have involved member for Port Curtis in October this year. the Minister in unnecessary work. The The whole assence of that question was Leader of the Opposition knows only too whether Queensland Newspapers Pty. Ltd. had well that in 99 cases out of 100 decisions contravened the State Transport Facilities made by the Commissioner for Transport Acts. I said, "No," and I stand by that have been approved by the Minister, both answer. when he was in office and during my term Mr. Walsh interjected. of office. There is nothing in this legislation that will enable the Minister to shelter behind Mr. CHALK: The hon. member is the the shield of bureaucracy, as the Leader of bmh lawyer of the Chamber. The old Act the Opposition would have the House believe. refers to newspapers but it does not give a All this legislation means is that the Com­ definition of the word. I sought the advice missioner accepts responsibility for carrying of the Crown Law Office on this matter. I out the policy laid down by the Government. was told that I could not take any action Why should not the Commissioner do that? against these people for the cartage of Is it not in the interests of the State that periodicals, firstly because the word "news­ the Commissioner is not subject to political papers" was not defined, and secondly because direction? Is it not in the interests of the of Section 92 of the Commonwealth Consti­ State that the Commissioner sum up the tution. Apparently the magazines were being position on the case placed before him? I brought from another State into Queensland have every confidence in the present Com­ by one form of transport. As there could missioner, as I said previously, and I believe be no proof of an offence by the company, it that a Government appointing a Commis­ was impossible to take any action against it. sioner in the future will have equal confidence In this legislation we have tied the matter up in him. so that in future there will be no doubt. The The Leader of the Opposition proceeded Leader of the Opposition would have hon. to outline one or two matters relating to what members believe that there was something to previously has been termed the "Bolton be hidden in that case. dossier." I am not going to develop that Let us examine also one or two other argument any further because I dealt with points that he raised. He made reference to it at considerable length the other night. But the fact that this Bill covered many of the the Leader of the Opposition endeavoured provisions of the 1946 Act. That is true. to present a further brief from Bolton to After all, any Government worth their salt 2022 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill will not discard what they believe is right, Mr. Hanlon: I said that the revenue from but because of the changes in transport that interstate operators was 20 per cent. have taken place since 1946-because of the decision in 1954 in the Hughes and Vale Mr. CHALK: I do not want to misquote case-it has become necessary to make cer­ the hon. member in any way, but the revenue tain changes. Those are the changes that from interstate hauliers is set out in the this Government have been prepared to face report at £208,707, which was 27 per cent. up to and that are embodied in this of the total tax collections. legislation. Mr. Hanlon: I said "about 20 per cent." Let us go a little further and examine what was said by the hon. member for Mr. CHALK: The hon. member said the Kedron. He, somewhat like his Leader, cost of administering it was 20 per cent. could not find anything on which to criticise Mr. Hanlon: I said it did little more than the Bill. He, too, went back to 1946 and cover the cost. referred to what was done then. I repeat that this legislation is to meet a set of cir­ Mr. CHALK: I shall show how wrong cumstances that are applying in 1960. the hon. member was. If he turns to page 14 He quoted what the late Mr. Wills said of the Commissioner's report, he will find in 1946 in his report as Commissioner for the cost of administering it was 7.44 per Railways. I do not disagree with that, but cent., and that the Government collected in the last 14 years I know that the late 27 per cent., so he was only 20 per cent. Mr. Wills also changed his line of thinking. out. In fact, barely a few months before his death Mr. Hanlon: You got 73 per cent. from he came to me and discussed certain internal operators. matters. He offered me certain advice. Mr. CHALK: That has not been denied, The hon. member for Kedron is living in but the hon. member would have the public the past to suit his own arguments in this believe that the cost of administering the Act case. He made lengthy reference to the was the amount paid by the interstate cartage of wool. I said in my introductory hauliers. :1 can only conclude that he remarks that I realised there would be some attempted to mislead the public or that he problems on the haulage of wool and that had not taken the time to study the Com­ it was not the desire of the Government to missioner's report. stifle road transport in that direction. Many graziers, because of their experience with the In the 40 minutes available to me I will not railways in 1956, have pledged themselves be able to deal with all the points raised, somewhat to road transport. We have said, but I will exercise my right at the Committee "You pay us the fee involved in this legis­ stage to reply to a number of the protests lation and you will be able to cart your that have been received. wool." On the other hand, I also told this Let me examine now the speech of the Chamber that the Commissioner for Rail­ hon. member for Port Curtis. He said that ways would go out after every bale there the Bill could injure some person who had was to be hauled, and I say without fear of purchased a heavy vehicle and was carrying contradiction that when this legislation for the Department of Main Roads or some­ becomes operative the Commissioner for one else. Nobody has anything to fear in the Railways will institute a campaign to get as legislation, provided he pays his just con­ much wool business as he can. I believe tribution to the State. Nothing in the Bill that in the long run the Railway Department can result in the seizure of a vehicle unless, will cart more wool than it is getting today. first, the person has defaulted in his payments The hon. member for Baroona started to to the State, and, second, he has been con­ victed in a court. If he defaults in pay­ quote figures in connection with the Roads ments to the State and is convicted in a (Contribution to Maintenance) Act. I have court of law, and if he refuses to meet his quite a high regard for the hon. member for commitments to the State, either because he Baroona; as a young man in this House he is not in a financial position to meet them or will probably go a long way. I interjected because he chooses to endeavour to defeat during his speech and referred to him as the State, he comes within the provision of "a babe in the wood" because I cannot for the the Bill to which the hon. member was life of me understand his figures. The referring. Later tonight at the Committee Transport Commissioner's annual report has stage I will deal fully with the power given been published and it is in his possession, I to the Government or the Transport Depart­ am sure. I cannot believe that he would ment to seize the vehicle. I will deal with come into this Chamber and deliberately mis­ it at length, because it is a very important lead the people of Queensland by the figures issue and because a number of protests about he quoted. it have been made. protests that I will be Mr. Hanlon: I did not quote any figures at able to show have been inspired by the one all. source. Mr. CHALK: The hon. member said that The hon. member for Brisbane delivered a the cost of administration of the Roads great song about safety. The safety pro­ (Contribution to Maintenance) Act was 20 visions of the Bill are exactly the same as per cent. the provisions of the Act administered by State Transport Bill (1 DECEMBER) State Transport Bill 2023

the Leader of the Opposition. The pro­ when he comes in, completely unbriefed, visions are the same as those that applied talking all this twaddle. In many cases over a number of years when Labour Govern­ the Government are re-enacting com­ ments were in office. They have not been pletely the legislation that the hon. member changed even slightly. The hon. member for for Bundaberg claimed he had the oppor­ Brisbane then asked how they were going tunity to write. to be policed. We are at present installing weighbridges. We are engaging more police lVIr. Walsh: I never mentioned that at any for road work than have ever been engaged stage. previously by the department. We are also Mr. CHALK: The hon. member never installing a number of wireless units within mentioned it, but he said legislation came in the police cars. We are doing all we can, in 1946, and I saw his ego and his chest within the resources of the Government come out because he was the Minister for and the capacity of the staff, to police the Transport at that time. It could never be very provisions that were in the Act and said that Ted Walsh would not attempt to that are repeated in the Bill. The Govern­ take credit for all the things he did, and, ment believe they should be policed to the very often, for some of the things he did greatest possible degree. not do. The hon. member for Brisbane then said he lVIr. W ALSH: I rise to a point of order. disagreed with the fact that a cream carrier I wish to correct a statement by the Minis­ will be able to take back provisions for a ter. I have been very careful. At no stage person on the land. I know quite well that of my remarks, on either the. intro:Juct~ry he has no primary producers in his electorate, or the second-reading stage, dtd I tdenttfy but I want primary-producer representatives myself personally with legislation. in the Government to indicate to the people in their areas the attitude of the hon. member JVIr. CHALK: I now want to reply to the for Brisbane, which was the attitude of the remarks of the hon. member for Bundaberg. Labour Party. It was not denied by his Immediately he rose to speak, he referred Leader. He sat there in silence. to a number of telegrams he had received, lVIr. Duggan: What arrant nonsense you which he contended were protests against the are talking. We exempted them under the Bill. Act. Mr. Waish: I have received more since Mr. CHALK: You did not. then. lVIr. Dnggan: We did. lVIr. CHALK: I do not doubt it. I believe that the wording of every telegram he has lVIr. CHALK: You exempted them pro­ received is identical. The fact that he did not vided they carried cream. I will give the read them convinces me of that. However, Leader of the Opposition all the legislation in Committee I will deal with the telegrams on it to show him where his Government's that have been forwarded to me, and to other Act fell down. members of the Government, during the last lVIr. Duggan: Do you know of any prose­ 48 hours. I shall not take up time on that cutions of people for taking goods to farms? point now. lVIr. CHALK: It was not a matter of The hon. member for Bundaberg then pro­ prosecutions; the Leader of the Opposition ceeded in his usual way to endeavour to was too shrewd for that. But we have now drive a wedge between the Commissioner made it legal, and that is all that this legisla­ for Transport and me. Firstly, he said that I tion does. had claimed in the Chamber that I had abso­ lute confidence in the Commissioner for The hon. member for Brisbane told the Transport. I repeat that I have. He then out­ hon. member for Rockhampton South that under this legislation the meatworks in Rock­ lined something that he contended was wrong hampton will immediately cart all their meat in the administration of the Act and insinua­ to the port by road. Meat has always ted that the Commissioner, Mr. Kropp, was been exempt. There has not been the not carrying out his duty under the Act. The slightest alteration in that regard. Those hon. member has not even taken the time to are two instances of the complete irresponsi­ think, because the present Commissioner has bility of this member who comes here in occupied the office only since February. If an "airy fairy" way and makes a speech any blame is attachable to the Commissioner that does not contain one iota of truth. He -and I do not attach any-the hon. mem­ spoke about country police sergeants having ber's remarks should have been directed the right to issue permits and said he would mainly at the former Commissioner. Again not like to be out in the country because he slipped in his attempt to introduce propa­ no sergeant would ever give him a permit. ganda to suit his own political purposes. I will not discuss that point, but under the existing legislation an officer in charge of When we took office we discussed with the a country police station can issue exactly then Commissioner, Mr. Anderson, the basis the same type of permit as he will be able of the transport policy that was adopted; but to issue under the proposed legislation. How any hon. member who has taken any interest silly can an hon. member become? How in transport over the past three years knows misleading can his remarks be in this House only too well the complications that have 1960-3s 2024 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill arisen under Section 92 of the Common­ not keep the notes; he would use the Cabinet wealth Constitution. In view of those com­ minute that was sent to him as official advice. plications the Government have not been In the court case the Commissioner rightly able to lay down a rigid policy to be followed and honestly said, "I got the first details of by any Commissioner. We have tried to this in some notes that were given to me." solve the problem by litigation, but that has There was some legal arguments as to the not been possible. Right up to the intro­ basis of the Cabinet determination and he duction of the Bill there has not been a was asked, "Have you got your old notes?" fixed policy that the Commissioner for Trans­ The Commissioner rightly said, "They could port, whoever he was in the period referred be in my drawer. I will find out." The hon. to by the hon. member, could rigidly member for Bundaberg, misses no oppor­ follow. Consequently, the Government take tunity to attempt to stir up political propa­ the responsibility for the fact that no new ganda and create some suspicion in the minds licences were issued. We also know only too of the public-- well, because of the little experience we have had, that where a new licence was issued it Mr. Walsh: That is not true. was immediately swallowed up by the Mr. CHALK: It is always the hon. mem­ monopolistic interests to which I have ber's desire to leave in the minds of the pub­ referred earlier in the debate. Therefore, if lic some basis for suspicion, but he has never we had issued licences, as the hon. member yet proved in this Chamber that his suspicion for Bundaberg said we could have, we would has been well founded. I throw his insinua­ be in no different position, because the basis tion back in his teeth. of licensing laid down in the Act lends itself to ultimately giving a monopoly of carrying The hon. member also argued on the into a particular area. The Government basis that there had been repudiation of an have said in this legislation that they believe undertaking. I say that this Bill does not that if one carrier can operate to a par­ repudiate any undertaking. It removes the ticular district, it is only right and fair that licensing monopoly, but it does not prevent any person who is prepared to pay the fee the holder of a licence from making applica­ laid down by the Government should have tions for permits, and it does not prevent the right to secure a permit to haul to that him from carrying on his business in the district. What could be fairer than that? normal way. In fact, if I were a licensee and I condemned the previous legislation and I had as many trucks as many of these said that it had fallen down, and I gave my monopolistic owners have, and if I had the reasons for saying that. I am prepared to experienced staff, the office facilities and admit that most of that trouble was caused the goodwill that they claim to have, would by the successful appeal to the Privy Council not that place me many streets ahead of any in the Hughes and Vale case in 1954. That is new person wanting to break into the game? why we are bringing down a complete new Are not these people starting out with all Bill. I had legal advice about the possi­ these facilities? Are they not being given bility of amending the old legislation, and I an opportunity to conduct their businesses? believe that we are proceeding in the correct The same percentage of goods will be avail­ way by taking this step. able for hauling. The licensing system does The hon. member also referred to the not take away any of the available business. powers of seizure. I will deal with this All that it does is to spread the right of when the particular clause in the Bill is dis­ those who desire to enter into the transport cussed, and no doubt the Opposition will take business. It gives them the right to ply for the opportunity of debating it later. hire. It gives them the right in the future to hang up a sign and say that they are I also want to clarify the insinuation of prepared to enter into the transport business. the hon. member for Bundaberg-he is noted As I said the other night, under the present for his insinuations-about some notes that Act road freights have been tied to rail passed between the Commissioner for Trans­ freights. Under the previous licensing sys­ port and me and that could not be found for production in court. tem the road haulier was allowed to charge the same rate as the railways. The railways Mr. Walsh: It was said in court. were immediately at a disadvantage because the road haulier delivered from door to Mr. CHALK: It is true. No-one denies door. Every time rail freights were raised it. It has been said on several occasions, but the road haulier, who undoubtedly, from the what ~appened was quite an ordinary figures I have quoted, had been making a happenmg. After a Cabinet meeting I dis­ substantial profit in the past, increased his cussed with the Commissioner certain things charges, too. By breaking the tie between the that he was required to do, and I outlined permit system and rail freights I believe on a sheet of paper what I believed were that we will get a cheaper basis of haulage the findings of Cabinet after it had discussed in country districts. I believe that people his recommendation. I gave him those notes will rightly receive a reduction in haulage and sai?, "They will enable you to get the costs. Until now increases in haulage charges matter m hand." The following morning the have gone into the pockets of the road Cabinet minute was distributed. What would operators. If Joe Blow at Surat can get his the ordinary public servant do? He would goods at a cheaper price than under the State Transport Bill [1 DECEMBER) State Transport Bill 2025

present system, I am certain he will pass Question-That the Bill be now read a the advantage on to the consumer. (Opposi­ second time (Mr. Chalk's motion)-put; and tion laughter). He will have to do that to the House divided- remain in business. AYES, 37 Mr. Anderson Mr. Jones Hon. members opposite have convicted Armstrong Knox themselves by their own arguments. They ," Beardmore ," Madsen have said that the little fellow will be wiped , Campbell Morris Carey , M tiller out. The small merchant will get his goods " Chalk , Munro cheaper; they cannot deny that. If he gets ," Dewar Nicklin his goods cheaper, he will supply them Evans Pi! beam cheaper to the country dweller. That is the , Ewan Rae , Fletcher ," Ramsden basis of our approach. , Gaven Row Gilmore , Sullivan The hon. member for Ipswich East spent Harrison , Taylor the whole of his time endeavouring to con­ Hart Wharton , Herbert , Windsor demn the Bill, not because of its contents, , Hewitt but rather to build up an argument so that , Hodges he could go back to his railwaymen and , Hooper Tellers: , Houghton Dr. Delamothe condemn the Government in their eyes. He , Hughes Mr. Smith talked about the owner who would lose his business. He waved a number of telegrams NOES, 22 in the air that he said he had received Mr. Bromley Mr. Inch Lloyd from certain companies. The fact that he Burrows ll , Byrne M ann could not wave one telegram from the , Davies Marsden workers of Queensland is significant in , Dean , Me!loy itself. Let him ask the people of Ipswich Donald , Sherrington , Dufficy , Thackeray whether they want to eliminate road services. , Duggan , Walsh That is another clear indication that hon. Graham Tellers: members opposite are not speaking on behalf Gunn of the people they represent, but rather in Hanlon Mr. Adair , Houston Newton relation to half a dozen telegrams which I " will prove later were inspired by one par­ PAIRS ticular organisation for a specific purpose. Mr. Lonergan Mr. Hilton , Pizzey , Diplock The first of the only other two members Low Davis Richter Tucker to speak during the debate was the hon. , Roberts Wa!lace member for Toowoomba East, who gave his , Hiley Bennett own views on this Bill. As a member of the Tooth Baxter Government he is entitled to express his own Resolved in the affirmative. views, something which hon. members opposite have never been game to do in opposition to their own party. COMMITTEE (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Taylor, Mr. Duggan interjected. Clayfield, in the chair) Mr. CHALK: The Leader of the Opposi­ Clauses I to 3, both inclusive, as read, tion knows only too well what happened agreed to. when he spoke against his own "boys". Clause 4-Repeals- Immediately his party was divided, and he found himself outside looking in. Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba West­ Leader of the Opposition) (7.39 p.m.): Hon. Mr. Duggan: I am on the inside, not on members who have a copy of the Bill will the outside. see that Subclause (2) reads- Mr. SPEAKER: Order! "Any and every license tO; provide and carry on a service for the carriage of goods Mr. CHALK: The only other speaker by road granted under the repealed Acts was the hon. member for Maryborough, who and in force at the date of the commence­ spent most of his time telling us this State ment of this Act shall- cannot possibly support luxury transport. I ( a) If the remainder of the term say that road transport is not luxury trans­ thereof still to run at and including the port. What this Bill is endeavouring to do date of the commencement of this Act mainly is give freedom to the individual­ is not longer than 30 days, continue in that is, freedom of choice of transport force until the expiration of the term within the State-and at the same time make thereof and shall be and is hereby deter­ railwaymen realise that they, too, must give mined as from the expiration of the service to the community. I believe that if term thereof; or the Bill is approached in that light every­ (b) If the remainder of the term thing will be well. thereof still to run at and including the date of the commencement of this Act (Time expired.) is longer than 30 days, continue in force 2026 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill

for a period of 30 days from and includ­ this legislation he would be one of the first ing the date of the commencement of people to walk out of the Chamber. The this Act, and shall be and is hereby Bill gives no protection. Under the provi­ determined as from the expiration of sions of Clause 18 the Commissioner has that period." power-- Then it goes on to certain other provisions. Mr. Annstrong: How many shares have This is one of the most obnoxious provi­ you got in-- sions of the Bill. It amounts to complete repudiation of the Government's contract with The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. mem­ people who hold licences. If hon. members ber is interjecting continually. on the Government side are prepared because Mr. DUGGAN: Under Clause 18 of the of party discipline to vote for this measure Bill the Commissioner has the power to they should be thoroughly ashamed of them­ determine who shall have a licence and who selves, especially as the Minister has said shall have a permit, and he decides in his that they are completely free to speak and own discretion whom that person shall be. vote as they like. We know these people If two applicants appeal to him he will are very disturbed, and if Government mem­ decide the matter by ballot, but in a case bers have any conscience at all about the where there are three licences operating in provisions of this Bill they, too, should be a particular area there is no obligation on disturbed. the Commissioner to endorse the three of We have just listened to a speech that was them. characteristic of the Minister. He jumped This is a very obnoxious principle. When all over the place and said that on this the hon. member for Bundaberg was speak­ occasion we on this side of the Chamber ing, I interjected that some time ago, when were representing the capitalists. we were the Government, we had made provision for the imposition of royalties on The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. gentle­ some mining organisations in Queensland. man is dealing with Clause 4. We were approached by the management of Mt. Isa Mines Ltd. on that occasion and Mr. DUGGAN: Clause 4 is a repudiation they said, "We think there is justification of an obligation on the Crown. It is a in this measure, but it has somewhat retro­ punishing clause, and a wicked clause. I do spective provisions and it violates a contract not know of any Act wherein a Government and will have the effect of telling people have taken to themselves the responsibility of who may want to invest in Queensland, 'You introducing legislation that absolves them cannot depend on a Government decision, from privileges granted by a preceding because they are making some retrospective Government, unless some extraordinary mat­ provisions.' " When the Bill was before the ters of public interest were involved. House we decided to amend the provision so that we would not create for people What does the Minister say on this matter? outside a feeling that we were breaking He says that no-one is hurt by the provi­ any contracts entered into by a previous sions of this Bill. What arrant nonsense! Government, and so that it would be seen The Minister accuses people on this side of that we were guaranteeing protection or the Chamber of being mere babes in the privileges given by that Government, and wood, or like Alice in Wonderland. His that we were not repudiating. We did that action can be best characterised as "Alice so that there would be confidence in the in Blunderland" because obviously-- Government of the State. Here we have the Government, allegedly committed to pri­ A Government Member: Someone used vate enterprise, coming along and saying that expression before you. that they wish to repudiate their obligations Mr. DUGGAN: It does not matter who to people whose contracts have two years used it. to run. Mr. Armstrong: It was the hon. member Mr. Ewan: Would there be many of those for Maryborough. licensees involved? Mr. DUGGAN: If it came from him, he Mr. DUGGAN: It does not matter if is a very good teacher and the truth cannot there is only one. The principle is wrong. be said too often. It confirms what I have Mr. Ewan: Are there any? been saying all along, that is, that this is a very serious repudiation. Government Mr. DUGGAN: Yes, of course there are­ members may make a very great song about dozens of them. the hon. member for Maryborough using the term, "Alice in Blunderland," but it does Mr. Knox: Do you believe Parliament not matter whether he or 50 other people should not change the law? said it before me. The important fact is that in this provision there is a repudiation Mr. DUGGAN: Parliament should not of a contract. repudiate contracts. Mr. Armstrong: Nothing of the sort. The next matter that the Minister dealt with concerned licences. He could alter that Mr. DUGGAN: The hon. member would under the existing law. He made a great not know what he is talking about. I song and dance about the fact that the guarantee that if he had a licence under licensees are compelled to charge railway State Transport Bill [1 DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 2027

freights. He could alter that under the exist­ Mr. DUGGAN: That there are monopolies ing law. There is no need to amend the in transport has to be proved in any case, legislation. If the legislation gives the Minister and their extent. The Minister said that even or the Governor in Council power to deter­ though he has power vested in him to grant mine as a condition of licence that road additional licences, there is nothing to pre­ hauliers must charge railway freights applic­ vent the fusion or merger of firms or com­ able to any particular areas, the same Minister panies. In all these cases are there any or Governor in Council can substitute another powers vested in any licensed road haulier condition. Those are two matters that the that enables him to compulsorily acquire a Minister made a great noise about today. licence from some other person? It must If he is concerned about the immediate be a free contract between two consenting effect, why not let these matters continue parties. If a small man elects not to be for a period? There is no guarantee under absorbed by a larger contractor or road the Bill that people who have been operating haulier, he is a perfectly free agent to remain lawfully will be permitted to continue to independent. If you have two or three operate. He can give a direction, not known or four or five or six of them and you argue to people outside, known only to the Com­ that, because of the superior financial missioner, of what his policy shall be. Sup­ resources of a big operator, he will pay a pose his policy is that there shall be one sum over and above the economic value licensee in Toowoomba, whereas there are of a business and thus provide an incentive three licensed operators there now. Nobody for the person to sell his business, and you knows. are going to have 20 or 30 of these people operating, it will not be very long before Mr. Annstrong interjected. that big operator will exhaust his financial Mr. DUGGAN: I know there are three capacity to pay more than the economic price. there now but the hon. member for Mulgrave It is so much nonsense to say that the Com­ would not even know their names. missioner will constantly have this matter arising. If the Minister feels that way about Mr. Annstrong: I do not want to know. it, why does he not introduce an amendment to the legislation, or use the existing law Mr. DUGGAN: The hon. member does not and refuse to approve an arrangement. These want to know who they are, yet he has the matters come before the Commissioner for temerity to interrupt and interject constantly. approval and they must be confirmed by the If he keeps on interrupting and interjecting Minister. If such a merger comes before the when he has been in the Assembly only about Commissioner for Transport, whether it is two months, he will find before very long a merger between Western Transport and he will be thinking he is a gramophone or something of the kind. Cobb & Co., or between Western Transport and some other independent haulier, the Mr. Armstrong interjected. Minister can withhold his consent. He could therefore, very simply and very easily, in an The CHAIRMAN: Order! administrative way-- Opposition Members: Send him out! Mr. Chalk: Not if it is a share company. The CHAIRMAN: Order! I ask the hon. Mr. DUGGAN: You could suspend and member for Mulgrave to refrain from con­ cancel a licence for any reason. tinual interruption. Mr. Chalk: You could buy the shares in Mr. DUGGAN: Then we had the extra­ the company, then nothing happens. ordinary spectacle of how these matters can be twisted. When we try to preserve some Mr. DUGGAN: If the Minister is so con­ proper principle in the business relationship cerned about these matters and if his power between the Government and the people of is so deficient, the Opposition would be Queensland with whom they have entered very happy to give him the requisite power into some form of contract we are charged to deal with these monopolies. If the with helping the Fascists. In other circum­ Minister thinks that we on this side of the stances we are charged with being Socialists Chamber are carrying out the work of the and helping to carry out the work of monopolies, I invite him, if he is really Communists. concerned about this rapacious action by the monopolies, to bring into the Chamber Mr. Ramsden: That is right, too. a Bill that will strengthen the power of the State against monopolies. I give him Mr. DUGGAN: We cannot be helping the assurance here and now that we will them all. In any case, whatever category enthusiastically clothe him with any powers I might be placed in I hope that I am that he seeks from this Parliament to deal never put in such a category that I might with the monopolies. We cannot go any be regarded as a supporter of the hon. further than that. member for Merthyr. What guarantee have we in this Bill? Mr. Ramsden: I hope so. The Minister gets up and glibly says that Mr. DUGGAN: And I hope so, too. All the savings effected will be passed on to right, we are in agreement on that. the people. How does he know? As the hon. member for Baroona said, following Mr. Hughes: Protect the monopolists! the High Court cases the Queensland and 2028 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill

New South Wales Governments were statements from time to time, and he obliged to refund many thousands of pounds referred in his policy speech to people com­ to road hauliers because fees imposed by ing here because they are dealing with them were found to be ultra vires the men of proven business acumen, ability, Commonwealth Constitution. and integrity. He said that in his 1957 policy speech. This sort of legislation will Mr. Chalk: You are the last one who do much to destroy what he said then, and should talk about that. I am certain that the Premier is not very Mr. DUGGAN: Don't try to threaten happy about this particular provision. It me. is wrong in every detail. Mr. Chalk: We are still paying back the Mr. Hughes: The vice-president of the fees you collected. Road Hauliers' Association supports this. Mr. DUGGAN: It does not matter. Mr. DUGGAN: If the hon. member is Does the person who got those goods ori­ so interested in the Road Hauliers' Associa­ ginally get the refund? We are talking tion, when they saw the Premier he told about the hauliers at present. They will them he was in favour of the licensing do what they have done from time system. immemorial. They will charge whatever the Mr. Chalk: Who told you that? traffic will stand and get as much as they can from the people in the area. They will Mr. DUGGAN: The Road Haulier's cut prices only when they begin to lose Association. business. The Minister talks about Cobb & Co., \Vestern Transport, and Brown's Mr. Chalk: I was referred as "Malice Transport. If he reads through the dossier in Blunderland." You are "Alice in and talks to people engaged in the business, Wonderland." he will find that rebates are granted only Mr. DUGGAN: There is no malice in the because other people are trying to get into Premier. The Premier has not denied that. the business. He probably ~id it with honest intentions. Mr. Ramsden: You said you did not I am not criticising him for saying it, because believe the dossier. it is probably an honest view. No doubt the Premier has a lot of responsibility and Mr. DUGGAN: I did not say anything worry. I am certain that his greatest worry of the kind. I said something about the is the policy of the Liberal Party. man who prepared that dossier that I have not said about the hon. member, that is, Government Members interjected. that I regard him as a man of great Mr. DUGGAN: He would be much hap­ integrity. pier if he had 45 Country Party members Mr. Ramsden: Well, you do believe the behind him. dossier? Government Members interjected. The CHAIRMAN: Order! The CHAIRMAN: Order! Mr. RAMSDEN: I will rise to a point Mr. DUGGAN: The Minister for Trans­ of order. If I heard the Leader of the Opposition correctly, he implied that I was port said that he was surprised that I had not a man of integrity. If so, I ask him any confidence in Mr. Bolton. In a letter to withdraw that remark. dated 19 April, 1960. to Mr. Bolton the Premier concluded- The CHAIRMAN: Order! There is no "There is no need for me to reiterate point of order. The hon. member did not that I have at all times welcomed your hear the statement of the Leader of the suggestions for solving this transport dead­ Opposition correctly. I remind hon. mem­ lock and in the long run I have no doubt bers that there is no reference to a dossier that these suggestions will prove of great in this Bill. value to us." Mr. DUGGAN: Thank you very much, Indeed, Mr. Bolton expressed the opinion to Mr. Taylor, for your double rebuke to the me that the Premier was a verv courteous hon. member for Merthyr, first of all person who was most anxious to help, and because he was the first person who men­ that at personal incenvenience he was trying tioned the dossier, and secondly because he to resolve this problem. He paid the Premier rose to a point of order when there was that tribute. I know that the Premier is very no point of order. unhappy about it. This is not a matter to be cast aside The CHAIRMAN: Order! lightly. It is a very important matter, and J: am certain that the confidence of people Mr. DUGGAN: I realise that I am out of who contemplate coming to Queensland order. I do not want to offend. But I do will be shaken severely when they know want to say that all of these interjections that this sort of decision is being made by and all the uproar by hon. members opposite a Government that allegedly commits itself will not get around the significance of their to the support of private enterprise. The actions and what will follow the adoption Premier and his principal spokesmen make of this clause. However, I am not going to State Transport Bill [1 DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 2029

lose many nights' sleep over it because I today, notwithstanding the assets in his have discharged my responsibility to the company, where he would be heavily com­ people of Queensland by drawing attention mitted to banks and other institutions. That to the matter. After the clause is passed I is quite a common practice with most large can go to my bed and sleep soundly tonight organisations, and they do not know where and tomorrow night-that is, if I am lucky, they will stand in these matters. That is tonight. But if hon. members opposite think what I am complaining about. How can they that they are doing a great thing for the rely on getting financial accommodation if development of the State by introducing those who lend large sums of money by legislation the basis of which is repudiation, way of overdraft or loan are not certain that they should be thoroughly ashamed of them­ the whole system cannot be destroyed by selves. repudiatory action of this kind? It is as clear as that, as simple as that, and as Mr. Ewan interjected. significant as that, and that is why I say we should oppose this clause. Mr. DUGGAN: What guarantee can we get from these people? If I had these guaran­ Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (8.1 p.m.): The tees perhaps our opposition would be less more I listen to the Minister the more I violent than it is. am reminded of that statement attributed to Benjamin Franklin- Mr. Chalk: Are you doubting the integrity of the Commissioner for Transport now? "He who fails in love with himself will have no rivals." Mr. DUGGAN: No, your Bill! A Government Member: Have you been Mr. Chalk: Mine? looking in the mirror? Mr. DUGGAN: Yes, your BilJ! I am Mr. WALSH: There is another saying, worried about what you might tell him but whether the Minister will get any secretly. consolation from it I do not know. This saying comes to my mind- Mr. Chalk: I don't usually foilow your practice. "Real friends are those who, when you have made a fool of yourself. do not feel The CHAIRMAN: Order! that you have done a permanent job." Mr. DUGGAN: The hon. member for If the Minister thinks over those two Bundaberg has circulated a proposed amend­ references, from now on he might at least ment that obliges the Minister to state in talk about some of the things that are in writing what his views are. If he is prepared the Bill and get down to business. Despite his attempt to hang on my shoulders a to accept that amendment it will be some statement that I was responsible for intro­ indication of his bona fides. If he is pre­ ducing the 1946 Act that is now being pared to indicate to the Chamber that every repealed, I defy him to quote one sentence person who is operating lawfuily in the State in any speech I have made in which I have at the present time will, under the BiJI be referred to my personal association with entitled to operate as he has done previo~sly, the introduction of that BiiJ. I do not take he will have done something he has not done the responsibility or the credit for it. because up to this point. So far we can be guided after all it was Government policy. If I only by what the BiiJ says. It says that it was the Minister in charge, that was all that is in the discretion of the Commissioner for concerned me. Transport to make a decision, with no veto from the Minister. As I say, ail he is obliged Mr. Chalk: I know why you wanted to to do is can;y out some direction from the get that in. I will teii the Committee later. Minister, which might be of a secret nature, or something that is restricted merely to a Mr. WALSH: I have an amendment to written communication between him and the move later. It is, on Clause 6, page 13, Commissioner. One of these companies has line 5-- 200 employees, another has 300, and another A Government Member: We are on has 50. These people have tremendous amounts of money involved. I am not aware Clause 4 now. of the personal affairs of the hon. member Mr. WALSH: I am sorry, I got ahead of for Toowoomba East-- myself. Mr. Hughes interjected. Mr. Chalk: You had better get up to the barrier. Mr. DUGGAN: You get back on to the fruit-barrow, which you might know some­ Mr. WALSH: I am up to the barrier. thing about. Clause 4 seeks to repeal the State Transport Facilities Act, 1946 to 1959. The CHAIRMAN: Order! To show whether there is any repudiation Mr. DUGGAN: I do not know the in this I shaH quote from a subsection in personal affairs of the hon. member for East the 1946 Act and leave it to anybody who Toowoomba and I have no right to know, can read plain English to determine for but I suppose that he would be in a position himself whether there is any repudiation. 2030 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill

The Minister can do what he likes-he can Now let me quote subclause 2 of Clause 4 struggle and squirm how he likes-but he of the Bill. It reads- will not get away from the factual evidence "Any and every license to provide and in the sections that I will quote. carry on a service for the carriage of Before getting on to that, I remind hon. goods by road granted under the repealed members that the 1946 Act repealed certain Acts and in force at the date of the corn· sections of the State Transport Facilities mencement of this Act shall- Act, 1938 to 1943, and it also preserved (a) if the remainder of the term certain sections. It is interesting to note thereof still to run at and including the that there is not in this Bill any reference date of the commencement of this Act to those sections that were preserved. In is not longer than thirty days, continue other words, apparently there has been no in force until the expiration of the term need to make any reference to them in thereof and shall be and is hereby this Bill. They are the particular sections determined as from the expiration of that deal with the declaration of a state of the term thereof; or emergency. Strangely enough, the Minister in his outline of the Bill did not refer in (b) if the remainder of the term any way to the retention of the particular thereof still to run at and including the powers that were contained in the State date of the commencement of this Act Transport Facilities Acts, 1938 to 1943. is longer than thirty days, continue in force for a period of thirty days from I now get on to what was repealed then and including the date of the com­ and what is being repealed now. Sub­ mencement of this Act, and shall be section 5 (3) of the 1946 Act read- and is hereby determined as from the "Providing that, but without limiting expiration of that period." the operation of 'The Acts Shortening The Government can get their Q.C., the Acts'- hon. member for Mt. Gravatt, to explain if (i) Sections six, seven, eight, fifteen, there is in this clause repudiation of existing sixteen, seventeen, and twenty of 'The contracts of licensed services. Any hon. State Transport Acts, 1938 to 1943,' and member who honestly debates the clause such of the regulations under such Acts according to his own conscience must arrive in force immediately prior to the date at the conclusion that it amounts to a upon which this Act comes into opera­ deliberate, definite repudiation of contracts tion as relate to licenses issued or to with existing licensees. If the Minister is vehicles licensed under such Acts (which sure that there is no repudiation in respect sections and regulations are hereinafter of existing licensed services, why does he in this section referred to as the 'said specifically provide that this clause shall licensing provisions') shall, nothwith­ apply only to licensed services for the standing the repeal of any of the said carriage of goods? Why has not the licensing provisions, continue and be Minister introduced a similar proposal cover­ deemed to continue in force with respect ing licensed services for the carriage of to both a license issued thereunder passengers' by road? There is evidence again which is in force when this Act comes of discrimination between the two sections into operation and to any vehicle to of licensed services as operating under the which such license relates until such existing Act. In the first case the Minister license or the extended currency, if any, is definitely taking away the licensed service of such license granted by the Commis­ from them, and in the second case he is sioner under this Act expires by allowing the road-passenger service to con­ effluxion of time or such license is tinue up to a period of seven years as from sooner revoked or surrendered under the date of the granting of the licence. The and in accordance with the said Minister cannot deny that. No matter what licensing provisions." he may say to the Committee, he made the deliberate statement this morning, when I Paragraph (iii) of subsection 3 read- raised a point of order and said there was "Any license issued under the said provision in this Act for the administration licensing provisions which is in force by the department of co-ordinated rail when this Act comes into operation shall, services, that it was not in the Act. unless sooner revoked or surrendered under and in accordance with the said Mr. Chalk: I did not. licensing provrs10ns continue in force until the currency or the extended currency Mr. WALSH: The Minister did and he of such license under this Act expires." must admit he said it was not in the Act. Is that clear enough? Is it not obvious The CHAIRMAN: Order! Is that in that the Government in 1946 deliberately Clause 4? provided that any licences that were in existence under the 1938-1943 Act were Mr. W ALSH: Yes. I am making the point preserved, that they were continued? There that no matter what the Minister tells the was no repudiation, and I defy the Minister Committee, in view of his statement this to make out a case of repudiation against morning we are entitled to treat his state­ the previous Government. ment with some caution. However, we will State Transport Bill [1 DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 2031 come to it in due course. All that I am do not know. But let us now examine the saying now is that there is provision in the approach made by the Leader of the Oppos~­ Act for these services. tion. It is typical of him that, when he 1s bereft of argument, he gets down to per­ This is a particularly long clause, and sonalities. Over the years that I have been a although the Minister would like me to, I member of this Assembly, I have often been am not going to take up 25 minutes in my called many names by him. I remember first speech. I will be on my feet again. "The Oracle from Lockyer" and I could go On page 4 there is a repudiation of the on citing them indefinitely. Tonight I have promises that were issued for the carriage been christened "Malice in Blunderland". If of goods by road by licensed services. That that is his view, he is quite entitled to it; but, is in subclause (4) of Clause 4. If the judging from his own remarks and the fact Minister wants further evidence that there that he said he had no responsibilities now is discrimination between the different types that he had expressed himself on this, all I of licensed services, in subclause (6) on can assume is that we could christen him page 5, we find this- "The Irresponsible Leader of the Opposi­ "Any and every license to provide and tion." The only point that he raised about carry on a service for the carriage of repudiation was that the Government are passengers by road granted under the taking away from the licensees the licences repealed Acts and in force at the date of they have, most of which have about 12 the commencement of this Act shall be months to run. deemed a license granted under this Act Mr. Walsh: How do you work that out? for the remainder of the term of such license still to run at such date and shall Mr. CHALK: I know the periods most of accordingly continue in force under and the existing licences have to run. Most of subject to this Act." those licences were an extension of licences that previously had been granted for a There is definite evidence again of dis­ specific period. crimination between the two types of road­ transport service, one carrying passengers Mr. Lloyd: What does that prove? and the other carrying goods. If we go on Mr. CHALK: If the hon. member's men­ further, subclause (7) contains a similar pro­ tality will allow him to absorb it, he should vision concerning permits that have been listen and he will find out. Those licences issued to passenger services. They are were extended for a further specified period. protected again. Any permits that were I do not deny that. What has happened? issued under the old Act remain in force The Government decided that the licensing and if the Minister cares to look further, system should go. Having made that decision, he will find that in subclause (8) of Clause 4 they studied the possibility of allowing a there is a similar provision protecting continuance of the licensing to those people licences granted to air companies under the who had a licence, believing possibly that, if old Act. It will be seen that there is very it could be arranged, it would be an approach definite evidence that the Government now to the subject. Under the permit system that stand charged, not only by the members of we are introducing, a person can get a permit this Chamber, but by the community at at a fixed fee per ton-mile on the full capacity large. of the vehicle and there is no obligation on An Opposition Member: They are guilty. him to charge rail freights. I ask the Leader of the Opposition in all seriousness: How Mr. WALSH: Yes, they are guilty of an could a licensee continue to operate under act of repudiation. I do not think I have the licence given him under the Act as ever known, in all my 25 years in Parlia­ against the permit system? Not one licen~ee ment, of such a case. would want to continue to operate under the Mr. Ewan: What about the time you licence. I believe I have given a clear indi­ "pinched" the land at Wandoan? cation that the Government studied the matter and came to the conclusion that they Mr. W ALSH: Whether the land was could not allow the system of licensing to "pinched" or not, it has nothing to do with continue. If they did they would have, on this. Replying to the hon. member for the one hand a licensing system specifying Roma and to put him right, I am sure it that rail freights, etc., must be charged and, would have been resumed under the Public on the other hand, a permit system as free Works Land Resumption Act. of charge as God's air which we breathe. I retain my right to speak later on. I The licensing system would be out of opera­ realise I am getting close to using up my tion tomorrow morning. first 15 minutes. Mr. Hanlon: Couldn't you vary the licence to make it the same in effect? Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ Minister for Transport) (8.15 p.m.): We have Mr. CHALK: We have had experience of listened to both the Leader of the Opposi­ endeavouring to vary a licence. I know what tion and the hon. member for Bundaberg, would happen immediately, and, if the hon. rather peculiarly for once walking hand-in­ member for Baroona were to consult one of hand on an issue. Whether it is the first his legal friends on his side, he would find indication of a joining of the .two parties I that an injunction would be taken against us 2032 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill

immediately by one of the companies con­ Mr. Walsh: On what ground? cerned, and if an injunction was taken our hands would be tied until it was heard and Mr. CHALK: On the ground of public possibly until we were dragged through the interest. If the Commissioner considers Privy Council. The result would be further that such action is necessary in the public hamstringing tactics by the haulier interests interest, he can cancel a licence. Merely to place the Government in another because a licence is granted for a certain embarrassing position in regard to its trans­ period, there is no obligation on the Com­ port law. missioner not to cancel it. I believe I have indicated to the Chamber our reason for Let us examine a little more of what the making this provlS!on. Rather than Leader of the Opposition said. He said elaborate that point any further, let me that Bolton would not acquire a licence make this point to the hon. member for because there could have to be two parties Bundaberg and other members of the to the sale of a licence. It is true that Opposition. During the election cam­ there would have to be two parties to the paign of 1957, the then Government, sale, but I produced in the Chamber at the the present Opposition, advocated the introductory stage of the Bill clear evidence extension of the 15-mile limit to 25 miles. that this monopolistic company to which I have made reference was prepared to pay During the short period they were in office £12,000 for an asset that had deteriorated after that election, and prior to the split, in value to less than £4,000. It was pre­ they did not implement that promise. But pared to pay that price for one reason: this Government implemented their promise not to help the widow, as was stated, but and extended it to 25 miles. The hon. mem­ to acquire a particular service and then to ber for Ipswich East was one who came to me with a deputation. I know that he was close it down on the Government undertaking of two minds. He was representing a rail­ that, to compensate for the outlay of this way city, but the merchants in the area money, which was money down the drain. desired to use road transport. As I say, we the company would get an extension of extended the limit to 25 miles. Overnight licence to another particular area. That is some licensees in Ipswich lost all their rights a clear indication of the extent to which under the licensing system. Did the Leader some hauliers are prepared to go to acquire of the Opposition, the hon. member for a monopolistic hold over a number of Bundaberg or the hon. member for Ipswich licences. East make any protest in the Chamber? Was Mr. Hanlon: It was a long time after you there any talk of repudiation tl}en? Because suggested that one that the Premier wrote those people lost their licences, because they in the terms that the Leader of the Opposi­ were placed on a footing where they had tion quoted. only equal rights to haul with anyone else, did those hon. members protest at any stage? Mr. CHALK: The Premier, being the man Not at all. But because it suits their political­ of character that I know he is, wrote to Mr. propaganda machine on this occasion they Bolton and thanked him for his suggestion. say, "What you have done is something new." If the hon. member likes to go back and look through the folder-if Mr. Bolton will Mr. Donald: Not one of them lost their give him the folder-he will find that I, too, licence. They continued. wrote and thanked him for certain sugges­ Mr. CHALK: And so can these people tions that he had sent to the department. continue with a permit. That is typical of the Premier's approach, and it is typical of my approach. Mr. Hanlon: Will you give a guarantee of that? Mr. Hanlon: Apparently the Premier did not put the interpretation on his offer to Mr. CHALK: The hon. member for Mrs. Leybourne that you did. Baroona is young. He wants me to usurp the functions of the Commissioner for Trans­ Mr. CHALK: I know what was offered part. He wants me to say that every person in the case of Mrs. Leybourne, and I know who has a licence at the present time will what the approach was. That proves that get one under the Bill. Then he would certain haulier interests will go to great use that as evidence of my dictatorial atti­ lengths to acquire a licence. tude towards the Commissioner. I have been Mr. Mann: Are you prepared to deny-- in the Chamber far too long to fall for that. The Bill clearly indicates that any person Mr. CHALK: I am not like the hon. can apply for a permit for the carriage of member. He would deny anything. unrestricted goods, and as long as the haulier The hon. member for Bundaberg also making application is a reputable haulier and spoke of this question of repudiation. He the Commissioner for Transport is satisfied outlined certain clauses in the Bill and that he will give a service, he has every right again charged us with repudiation. He to get a permit. Consequently there is no knows, and I know he knows, the Act very case to be answered in that direction. From well, and he knows that the Commissioner a general point of view it is not a matter of has the right under that Act to cancel a repudiation but of introducing a new State licence if he considers it is in the public Transport Act that will enable us to proceed interest to do so. along the lines that we believe in, and under State Transport Bill [1 DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 2033 whi~h we think the people of Queensland, only extended for a further term. I do not particularly those in the country areas ulti­ see how his argument proves anything. As mately will get a better and cheaper ~eans a matter of fact, the original licences, or of transport. the extended licences, still remain as an exist­ Mr. LLOYD (Kedron) (8.29 p.m.): As is ing contract between the Government and the the general rule when the Minister rises to licensees and it is still repudiation by the reply to any of the arguments advanced by Government. the Opposition he tips the usual "can." Unfortunately for him, this time the can was In the original Act of 1946-and further on empty. He has not answered ihe arguments in this Bill-there are provisions covering the advanced by the Leader of the Opposition taking-over by a local authority of any exist­ and the hon. member for Bundaberg. He ing passenger licence. So far as compensation attempted to draw an analogy between the is concerned, where the value of the vehicles Bill and the extension of the 15-mile limit used has been reduced because they were not to 25 miles, but he failed completely in that taken over_ by the local authority with the endeavour because immediately the extension service, compensation is allowed. It is pro­ was made there was no payment of any fees vided later in this Bill-it was also in the under the State Transport Facilities Act out­ original Act-that previous services that were side the 15-mile limit. So that in actual fact part and parcel of the licence system will be whilst these people who were operating unde; continued. Clause 4 of the Bill provides the State Transport Facilities Act previously that it will be possible for the Minister to were still able to operate without payment of continue the licences for a period of 30 days any fee and no restriction WJ!S placed on after the implementation of this legislation. them and the permit was still available at If it is possible to continue them for a period any time, they had to make application to of 30 days, it is possible to continue them the Commissioner for Transport for the over the whole period of the licences. Such permit to continue. a provision would enable these transport com­ panies to make their own arrangements and In reply to the Minister's analogy, he had adjustments in a just and equitable manner. a mandate from the people by the very fact that the Government had been elected. Had The Minister knows very well that a number we been elected we would have extended the of approaches have been made to him and 15-mile limit to 25 miles. There is abso­ the Premier during the past few months to lutely nothing in that point that would absolve have the provision that forces transport com­ the Minister in any way. He knew very well panies to charge railway freights for the that the extension of the exempted milage carriage of goods on licensed runs revoked to 25 miles absolves the companies he men­ to allow them to reduce their freights in tions from paying transport tax. Previously order to compete with border-hoppers. They their contract was that in lieu of paying the were finding that many border-hoppers were tax they were granted a license. coming into their areas and taking the trans­ portation of goods away from them. That In this case there is a definite contract was only because the licensed companies were existing between the CommissiOner for Trans­ forced to charge railway freights. If they port, or the Minister, and the people engaged could have reduced their freight rates to a in this activity. In the event of this clause more competitive basis they would have been being passed, the transport companies involved able to compete with the border-hoppers and will be placed in the position of still having thus continue their services. The Minister to make application for a permit to operate along the same routes as they have been under knows that that is so, so why come in here the licence and there is a possibility that the and tell us that, if they had varied the con­ Commissioner may decide not to issue a tracts by reducing the rates charged by permit to them. There is then the capitalisa­ carriers, the Government could have been tion involved, represented by the value of taken to the Privy Council, and the decision their trucks and their responsibility to the would have been against the Government? employees engaged in their industry. There That story cannot be believed or swallowed is a big responsibility on them in that respect. by hon. members on this side of the Com­ mittee. There is continuous mention in the State Transport Facilities Act of 1946 of provisions The Minister has failed completely to contained in the 1938 to 1943 Act that licences rebut the charge we have made that Clause 4 is a direct repudiation of existing contracts. granted under that Act should be continued The Premier and other members of the under Order in Council and that they would, Cabinet have said in this Chamber from time in fact, be allowed to continue. There is to time that they are confident that overseas ample precedent for it and the Minister and southern capital will come to Queens­ himself could quite easily have decided that land because of a realisation that Queensland those licences that were in existence should has a stable Government, a Government be allowed to continue during their currency. who can be trusted and who will honour contracts made with them. This is an instance The Minister had something to say in regard of a contract that is not being honoured by to the fact that the licences were not actually the Government. Their action in repudiating the original licences granted, that they were contracts will bring discr€dit on them. 2034 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill

Mr. HANLON (Baroona) (8.36 p.m.): As able to carry on and would get permits. He a younger member of Parliament I am only said, "Now you are trying to get me to too ready to concede to the Minister that dictate to my Commissioner." I do make a number of mistakes that more I do not want to get ahead of myself, but mature members would not make, but when in Clause 6 of the Bill the Minister is given the Minister's only answer to any submission the power of laying down general policy. I make is that I am too young to under­ Would it not be general policy to say to stand, I start to think that there is something the Commissioner, "These people have been in my argument. If he falls back on that carrying on for a number of years under statement, he obviously must have his back the old Act and I think they should be given to the wall. If he had a clear way of a fair go when their licence expires in 30 pointing out how I am wrong, he would days and they apply for permits in com­ not have to use such an argument against petition with others?" The Minister could me. Jay down as general policy that, all things On this occasion my view is pretty close being equal, that should be done. In what to the point, because I think Clause 4 is the way would he be dictating to his basis of the Bill inasmuch as it gives the Commissioner? Minister the opportunity he clearly wants, Mr. Chalk: Who makes policy? that is, the oportunity to score off Mr. Bolton because of the allegations that he says have Mr. HANLON: I will be bringing this been framed by Bolton against the matter up on Clause 6. I do not want Government. to be ruled out of order. We have pointed out time and time again Mr. Chalk: The policy is made by the that whether or not those allegations are party as a whole. true can be decided only by a royal com­ Mr. HANLON: If the Minister is going mission. Neither side of the Committee to make fine distinctions like that he is can decide whether or not they are true, but obviously on the defensive. It is the respon­ the Government have seen fit not to accept sibility generally of the Minister to lay down our submission that they should appoint a policy. If he really feels that there is no royal commission. Irrespective of how the reason why these people should be penal­ Minister twists and turns, he cannot get ised, he should see that they are not. That away from the fact that there is a strong is the point I am making. If the Minister element of repudiation in this clause. is going to say there is no repudiation in He told us that, in approaching the com­ Clause 4, and these licences are to expire pilation of this consolidated measure, the after 30 days as laid down, is he going Government looked at the matter of honour­ to rule them out if others come along and ing the licences or contracts that had been seek a permit from the Commissioner? If granted under the Act; that they endeavoured the Minister, or the Commissioner, feels to find some way of making an arrangement that because Bolton has made these alle­ to allow those people to continue in business. gations they are enough to suggest he is He said it was found that that could not be not a reliable operator or something like done because he could not vary a licence. that, the Minister should indicate at this But I point out that he did not find it very stage whether these things are to be held difficult to vary the co-ordinated contract against Bolton. He has made the allega­ when it suited his purpose. He experienced tions and they have been presented to Par­ no difficulty in varying the contract for the liament, and the Government have not seen co-ordinated service, and he freely admitted fit to appoint a commission. We should it was varied. know if they are going to hold these mat­ ters against him when his licence expires. Mr. Chalk: I varied the price structure. Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (8.41 p.m.): I Mr. HANLON: The Minister varied the think that when the Minister was replying price structure from the terms set out when on this matter he showed every sign of a tenders were called for the contract. Those guilty conscience. The argument the who tender under a certain arrangement Minister has put up in reply is the weakest would like the opportunity of tendering we could get from a man occupying such under the arrangement and then at a later a responsible position, more particularly stage having it altered to suit their con­ when such a vital principle is involved. I venience. The Minister found it was possible was interested in his interjection while the to vary that contract, but when I suggested hon. member for Baroona was speaking. that it might have been possible to vary He asked the hon. member for Baroona these other contracts he said it was not who made policy. By that it would appear possible. If he had wanted to give these that the Minister is going to do something, people the opportunity of automatically or make a decision on something, as a carrying on in accordance with the old matter of policy, that is not even con­ Act-and he tries to make out that he did­ tained in the Bill. I suggested that he could have varied the Mr. Chalk: No. licences so that the carriers were not tied in their charges to rail freights. I asked Mr. W ALSH: When I come to other him, if that was not possible, would he clauses I may go into that point a little guarantee now that these people would be more fully. State Transport Bill [1 DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 2035

Mr. Chalk: The hon. member for that I was not aware of, but of course I Baroona · dealt with matters that are con­ was aware of it. That was the power of tained in Clause 6. the Commissioner to cancel a licence, to suspend a licence, and, in a different Part, Mr. WALSH: I can assure the Minister as in the Bill, to revoke a licence. There that I am not going into that because I is also provision for a licence to be surren­ have no time to deal with matters that are dered. But the Minister knows that the irrelevant to this clause. present Commissioner, as long as he has been The Minister said the licensing system Commissioner, or the Commissioner before had to go. It is strange that he did not him, would not have cancelled any licence tell the Committee that the licensing sys­ in the so-called public interest, and I suggest tem had to go so far as it affected the that, if a licence was cancelled, it would carriage of goods by road, but did not have be only because of the other provisions of to go so far as it affected the carriage of the Act, where there had been breaches of passengers by road. the law-and rightly so-and that is pro­ Mr. Chalk: If you read my introductory vided for again. The Minister is not going speech, it is all set out there very clearly. to get away with it by saying that the power given to the Commissioner by the Act to Mr. W ALSH: I am not concerned with cancel a licence in the public interest defends the Minister's introductory speech. After the Government's stand on this act of repudia­ he told us today that the particular pro­ tion. The Minister has made out a poor vision is not in the Act, I am not interested case in his reply to the charge of repudiation. in what he said in his speech. I am He said, too, that people who have interested in what is in the Bill. The licensed services to carry goods by road did Minister cannot sidestep that one. Would not wish to continue. not there be just as much chance of the road-passenger service falling into the hands Mr. Chalk: I did not say that. I said I of the monopolies? did not think they would wish to continue. Mr. Chalk: It could happen. Mr. W ALSH: I accept that correction­ Mr. WALSH: It could happen, but what ! do not want to misquote the Minister­ is going to happen under this Bill? I but I understood him to say otherwise. It realise now, as distinct from the Act, that is strange that the Minister appears to think a transfer has to have the Commissioner's that the licensees carrying goods by road consent. Here again, the Minister has not would not wish to continue while those carry­ satisfied the Committee why he should dis­ ing passengers by road would wish to con­ criminate between goods services and pas­ tinue so he set out to give them the protec­ senger services. The passenger services have tion by the paragraph I have mentioned. He been protected, and so have the air services. referred to a company that was prepared That is another matter that the Minister to pay £12,000 for an existing licence so that might well remember. It is provided for it might gradually build up to gain complete in sub-clause (11) of Clause 4, which control of the transport services in the car­ says- riage of goods. Surely the Minister does not " Every licence to hire under and within think hon. members are so simple that they the meaning of Part VIA. of the do not understand that an amel)dment of the repealed Acts, which is in force at the existing law would have overcome that! The date of the commencement of this Act power that is now given to the Commissioner shall, subject as hereinafter provided in to approve the transfer of any licence no this subsection, continue in force until it doubt includes licensed passenger services expires by effiuxion of time or is sur­ which means that the Commissioner will have rendered, cancelled or suspended under the say as to whether they can be transferred, this Act: so do not let the Minister try to pull the wool over the eyes of the Committee in that Provided that the provisions of Part Ill. way. He knows the attitude of the com­ of this Act shall apply as if every such panies just as well as I do. They are just licence were a licence issued under those like other companies-oil companies or any provisions, and for the purpose of so others engaged in the same type of traffic or applying those provisions, every such speculation. It might interest him to know license shall be deemed a licence issued that one oil company will take advantage of thereunder." its legal position and will transport oil all Here again we have entirely different the way from Brisbane down over the border language used in the sub-clause from that in its own tankers, drum it over the border, used in the protection of the passenger and then redistribute it in the Stanthorpe services, the water services, or the air services. and Goondiwindi areas, thus saving 5d. a I know it is dealing with a different system gallon ld. of which will go to the consumers, of road transport. That refers to the amend­ and 1::1. to the distributors. It will collect ing Bill brought down by the Minister, I the other 3d. for itself and the Minister, or think in 1959, dealing with the transfer of the Commissioner, will not get 6d. out of that licences of taxi-cabs, and so on. In this it company. That is how far the Minister is will be seen that there is provision even for going in his attempt to deal with the so-called the cancellation of licences. The Minister border-hoppers. They will take advantage thought he was dragging something out on me of their legal position, and that is the way 2036 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill they will treat the Minister under this legis­ Mr. HANLON: There is no way in the lation. The Minister knows he cannot over­ world I will give him fifty guineas for an come this particular problem, no matter how opinion. We don't mind his advice often he claims that this Bill will have an when it is free. The hon. member for effect on the illegal border-hoppers. Mt. Gravatt has pointed out that in the As the Minister's argument was so weak Act introduced by a Labour Government in when he spoke on this matter on a previous 1946 there was power, naturally, to revoke occasion, I am sure he will not get up and licences. It would be a weird Act if it did speak now. not contain that power. Section 36 of the Act said, "The Commissioner may at any Mr. HART (Mt. Gravatt) (8.51 p.m.): I time and from time to time--", and so did not intend to speak on this clause, but on, but this Bill provides that he "shall". the hon. member for Bundaberg challenged The Government have exercised the power me to say this was not repudiation. I say of revoking the licences. The Minister said that there is no repudiation in this clause. that a licence could not be varied because the person concerned would take out an Clause 4 (1) of the Bill says- injunction. " 'The State Transport Facilities Acts, 1946 to 1959,' are hereby repealed." Mr. Chalk: They would certainly take one out to delay the proceedings. Section 36 of the original Act, which has never been interfered with says- Mr. HANLON: While listening to the "The Commissioner may at any time crossfire between the hon. member for and from time to time amend. alter, add to, Bundaberg and the hon. member for Mt. vary, or revoke the terms and conditions Gravatt on this clause, it struck me as very of a license issued under this Part of this desirable that we should make some effort Act or any of them." in this Bill to make it clear that these people I say clearly that the whole purport of that will be entitled to run. The Minister said section is to allow the Commissioner, or that they will have an opportunity to seek the Government, to take the licences from permits under this legislation. But there these people at any time and not give them is an undesirable feature about it in that compensation. Mr. Bolton, who made these allegations against the Minister and the department, will Mr. Duggan: Your Minister said they be placed in the position of having to seek could not do that. permits from the Commissioner, who has Mr. HART: I was asked by the hon. a writ out against him. I am not going to member for Bundaberg to do something, enter into any discussion of the writ itself, and I am doing it. I was asked to say but the fact of the matter is that the Com­ whether or not it was repudiation, and I missioner has had a writ taken out by the say that this very section was inserted in Crown Solicitor against Bolton. It is highly the Act, probably by the hon. member for undesirable that the position should arise Bundaberg himself, for the purpose of allow­ wherein Bolton will seek permits from ing the Government to deal with these the Commissioner. It would be much better licences. If the section were not in the Act, to avoid that, not only from Mr. Bolton's the position would be that the Government, point of view, but also from Mr. Kropp's. having created these licences, could never If after examining Bolton's application alter their policy on transport. Its purpose the Commissioner genuinely considers that is to enable the Government to do what he should not grant him licences he will they are doing at this moment. I am certain be open to the accusation that he is biased that when the hon. member and his against Bolton because of the legal duel colleagues passed this Act, they did not between them. The only way to avoid that intend to set up a number of monopolies possibility would be to provide for licences and to vest rights in them that could not under this Bill. For that reason the Minister be altered. The purpose of this section was should give serious consideration to our sub­ to enable the Government to do what they missions on this clause. We are not saying are doing now. If the hon. member for that we have the answer, but the Minister Bundaberg has forgotten that he put the should try to avoid something that I do not section in the Act-- think would be in the interests of either Mr. Walsb: I did not forget. I have already Mr. Kropp or Mr. Bolton. told you that. Mr. BURROWS (Port Curtis) (8.57 p.m.): Mr. HART: The hon. member, being the The point is that certain carriers have shrewd gentleman that he is. would not entered into contracts, and the Government have invited me to sneak on this clause if propose to break those contracts. The hon. he had remembered that. member for Mt. Gravatt has tried to blind us with science, but no-one knows better Mr. HANLON (Baroona) (8.54 p.m.): The than he that if a contract is broken by one hon. member for Mt. Gravatt has risen to party without any prior default of the other give us his opinion on the subject of it is repudiation. repudiation. The Minister has tried to draw a red Mr. Ramsden: It would cost you fifty herring across the trial by referring to the guineas outside the Chamber. Ipswich contracts. The hon. member for State Transport Bill [1 DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 2037

Kedron replied effectively by drawing interest, or in any case where he is satisfied attention to the fact that those men were that the licensee has contravened or failed given a better contract. The hon. members to comply with any provision of this Act for Mt. Gravatt and Windsor should know or any term or condition of his licence that it is not uncommon for a contract to (and notwithstanding that the licensee has be discharged by substitution. In this not been convicted of such contravention instance there is no offer of substitution. or failure) may- There is no agreement; it is straight-out (i) Cancel; or repudiation. If there were a clause providing (ii) Suspend for such period as he shall that existing contracts shall continue or that determine, any license, certificate of compensation shall be payable, we would have no quarrel. But it is a straight-out approval of a vehicle or authority to repudiation or "wipe-off." We should all operate an approved vehicle issued under be conscious of the undesirable position in the provisions of this part of this Act." which the Commissioner for Transport will I rose on this occasion merely to correct the be placed if applications have to be sub­ interpretation of the hon. member for Mt. mitted to him by Bolton. If Bolton Gravatt, who, I understand, is a Queen's loses his contract it must have a big effect Counsel. on the value of his trucks. I would not know the man if I saw him, but from what Mr. HART (Mt. Gravatt (9.3 p.m.): Since the debate has revealed he must have trucks I have been challenged on this point by the worth many thousands of pounds. We all hon. member for Kedron, I feel that I might know that the value of an asset depends on set him right on the matter. There are the use to which it can be put. By the loss powers contained in Section 44 and also in of his contract, Bolton would no doubt Section 36. Reading the Act as a whole, the lose many thousands of pounds in the powers contained in Section 44 do not limit decreased value of his trucks. It is not fair those contained in Section 3 6 under which to the Commissioner for Transport, or to the Commissioner can cancel or revoke with­ Bolton, to put them in that position while out giving any reason whatsoever. litigation is pending, which, by the way, was instituted by the Government through the Mr. Walsh interjected. Crown Solicitor. The position would be absolutely intolerable both from the point of Mr. HART: I speak to you, Mr. Taylor, view of the Government and in justice, in not to the honourable bush lawyers over addition to which the Government's integrity there. The Commissioner has a right to and the respect in which they should be revoke without giving any reason whatsoever. held is at stake. It is very regrettable that Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ the earlier amendment that the matter be Minister for Transport) (9.4 p.m.): I do not deferred was not carried. intend to delay the passage of this clause. Mr. LLOYD (Kedron) (9.1 p.m.): I am In relation to the advice given by the hon. sorry that the hon. member for Mt. Gravatt member for Mt. Gravatt, I believe he has a spoke on this matter because obviously he very good knowledge of this Act because he has not a great deal of knowledge of the was successful in an action against my own State Transport Facilities Act. He quoted department in the Beech case. That is a Section 36 of the repealed Act and said that clear indication that he has a very sound the Commissioner can at any time revoke knowledge of this law. a licence granted under the 1946 Act. That There are two other points that I wish to is completely wrong on the wording of Sec­ make. Reference was made to the fact that tion 36 of that Act, which states- in extending the limit from 15 to 20 miles "The Commissioner may at any time and the Government had a mandate from the from time to time amend, alter, add to, electors. I do not deny that. I claim equally vary, or revoke the terms and conditions that there was a mandate given to this of a license issued under this part of this Government to introduce this legislation Act or any of them." because in his policy speech the Premier That states that the Commissioner may rightly indicated that we were sick and tired revoke any term or any condition of a license of the problems confronting us under this but does not refer to the revoking of the Act and, when we were returned to power­ licence itself. I have not any legal training as we were-it would be amended. That is as has the hon. member for Mt. Gravatt, but what we are doing at the present time. my interpretation is not the same as his. I shall now deal with another point that Before I rose to make this statement I seems to be causing considerable concern to checked through later provisions of the same hon. members opposite. Some of them have legislation and the actual section that covers probably tried to make the Commissioner the cancellation or suspension of a licence for Transport blush, but I assure them that is not Section 36 of the repealed State Trans­ there is very little prospect of that. Hon. port Facilities Act. It is Section 44, which members opposite spoke of the possibility states- of Cobb & Co. or Mr. Bolton and his "The Commissioner, if he considers such companies going along to the Commissioner action necessary or desirable in the public and not getting a permit. Let me tell the 2038 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill

Committee that the writ was issued weeks as we go along, to the fact that the Minister ago, and that the dossier has been in exis­ has brought legislation into the Chamber that tence for quite a long time. Even today is almost on a par with the existing law. Cobb & Co. was issued with a permit by Clause 5, as read, agreed to. the Transport Department. Is that in itself not an indication that the Commissioner, Clause 6-Minister- members of the Transport Department and I Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba West­ display no malice in respect of the issuing of Leader of the Opposition) (9.14 p.m.): On permits to this company? That is a clear this matter I have already indicated that the indication of the sincerity with which we hon. member for Bundaberg has fore­ are carrying out the duties of the depart­ shadowed an amendment. There are many ment. Cobb & Co. have permits to run reasons why action should be taken to amend to certain areas, and when the Bill becomes this clause or oppose it. The provisions are- law and the company makes applications, "The Commissioner and other officers they will be considered on their merits in administering this Act shall have regard the same way as all other applications. to any directions which the Minister may Question-That Clause 4, as read, stand give from time to time as respects policy. part of the Bill-put; and the Committee No person shall have any right or divided- remedy in law on the ground that any such ministerial direction has not been followed AYES, 34 or applied by the Commissioner or any Mr. Beardmore Mr. Madsen , Campbell , Morris such officer. , Carey , MUller Neither the Supreme Court nor any , Chalk , Munro other court or judicial tribunal whatsoever Dr. Delamothe , Nicklin Mr. Dewar Dr. Noble shall have jurisdiction to entertain any suit, , Evans Mr. Pilbeam action or other proceeding whatsoever for , Ewan , Rae enforcing a right, remedy or claim alleged , Fletcher , Ramsden , Gaven , Row to be had by any person by virtue of any , Gilmore Smith such ministerial direction." , Harrison ,., Sullivan , Hart , Wharton Under that the Minister seeks to evade his , Herbert , Windsor responsibility to explain his policy, to defend , Hodges it and to justify it. He claims-and there , Hooper Tellers: , Hughes Mr. Armstrong is some merit in the suggestion-that under , Jones , K.nox the Act many routine matters were submitted to the Minister for confirmation. I support NOES, 22 that because it is true. If the submissions Mr. Adair Mr. Inch coincide with a time of heavy Ministerial , Bromley , Lloyd responsibilities, particularly if some of the , Byrne , Mann , Davies , Marsden matters are not urgent, there is a disposition Dean , Melloy to put them aside for a while or to refer Donald , Newton some of them back. As the Minister said he Dufficy , Thackeray Duggan , Walsh thought the practice was not very different now from what it was in earlier times, I Graham Tellers: Gunn am sure that he is from time to time con­ Hanlon Mr. Burrows , Sherrington strained to refer back to the Commissioner Houston some recommendations for clarification or PAIRS for amendment. That happened frequently Mr. Low Mr. Davis in the past and no doubt it happens now. , Richter , Tucker I recall that he said some time ago that he ,, Roberts ,, Wallace had been in frequent consultation with the , Hiley , Bennett Tooth , Baxter Commissioner on many of these matters. , Lonergan Hi! ton While the procedure is cumbersome and while ,, Pizzey , Diplock perhaps support should be given to any proposal to reduce the need for the Minis­ Resolved in the affirmative. ter to involve himself in routine matters, the Clause 5-Interpretation- right of the Parliament and of the people to have access to Ministers should be pre­ Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (9.13 p.m.): I served. The lack of that access in the Federal have nothing particular to say about this sphere is to be deplored and that is why I clause, other than to draw the attention of spoke of democracy this morning. Where the Committee-as I will do as we go through you have people not answerable to public these clauses-that there is a section in the opinion you find it, and that is particularly Act that is proposed to be repealed that con­ so with some Federal public servants. The tains the various interpretations stated here. ruthlessness of Federal public servants is in There are a few new ones such as "Load marked contrast to the attitude of State capacity" and "Passenger service license," public servants. Primarily the reason is that and a re-drafting of the interpretation of State Ministers have constant access to State "Permit," and then here is a reference to public servants from day to day, and if there the "Repealed Acts." I just want to draw is any public criticism a Minister can ring the attention of members of the Committee, a bell and have the officer responsible brought State Transport Bill [1 DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 2039 in to him, and that officer is then obliged to he so desires. He can say, "You have no justify the administrative act of his depart­ legislative power over me at all." This ment. is not a restriction on the Commissioner. If the Minister thinks that P.ublic opinion These powers would be equivalent to the is being outraged or that the requirements powers exercised by a Russian commissar or of the State demand a change in policy, German gauleiter, because he is not answer­ generally speaking he has the power to do able to anybody. We will test the Minister's something about it. I do not think any hon. bona fides in a few minutes with an amend­ member-any Minister, anyway-will dis­ ment. If he has some general directions agree with me when I say that the personal to give, what is his policy? Let him tell supervision exercised by State Ministers in the Committee. He must have a policy, all States far transcends that of Federal because he proposes to issue it to the Com­ Ministers. It is because we have that pro­ missioner. When you have people with 200 tection here that I do not want to see it employees and assets worth £300,000 or surrendered. The Minister said that he would £400,000, and when you have a number of not be in a position to intimate to the Com­ operators with about 800 or 900 employees missioner his views on guaranteeing existing and investments running into a couple of licensed hauliers that they would get a permit million pounds, surely these matters are and he added, in an attempt to soften the important. The Minister could very well blow a little, that, despite the fact that a say, "I want to inform you, Mr. Com­ writ had been issued in the matter, a permit missioner, that there is no malice, and had been given to Cobb & Co. recently and there must be a continuation of permits to there was no malice. I do not want to take people who have observed the law." I do up the time of the Committee unduly on this not think that is a very difficult thing to because we have many other matters to do, and I do not see why that direction discuss, but I have ringed the relevant pages should not be given in writing to make it of "Hansard" No. 18-pages 1611, 1612, 1613 perfectly clear. The Minister says that there and 1614-where the Minister had some very is no need for a written record to be kept, unpleasant things to say about Mr. Bolton. but if he rings the Commissioner up and If the Minister cares to read them-if the says, "I suggest you do so-and-so," he can statements have escaped his m~mory-I will then hide behind that and say, "There is be happy to furnish him with those pages. no record of my having told the Com­ I should say he was actuated by a measure missioner what to do," and no-one but the of malice. At least, if someone had said Commissioner cah swear that he did or those things about me I should not feel very did not say it. happy about going along to him for a permit. The hon. member for Mt. Gravatt said I should certainly not expect ·to get a fair there was power under the Act to vary the go from him. terms and conditions of the licences, and_ Mr. Chalk: You and I have said many the Minister said that was good law because things about one another but still there is the hon. member for Mt. Gravatt had beaten no malice. It would be exactly the same. him in a case in which the hon. member for Mt. Gravatt had appeared. If it is Mr. DUGGAN: I am not referring to the good law, why could not the Minister have Minister and me but to the Minister and altered the conditions on these licences say­ Mr. Bolton; that is the point. I am not ing that they must observe the railway dealing with Mr. Bolton in particular. I freights and conditions? Why did he not want to make that clear. Obviously many say to those people, "We are going to amend of these charges have emanated from Mr. the law. We are going to allow these Bolton and his name has been mentioned, licences to continue for the normal period but I am dealing with the matter in a general of two years." If the power is there to way rather than with him. The Minister do it, why cannot the Government do it said that if he gave a direction to the Com­ under the existing law? missioner he could be regarded as being some­ what of a dictator. If that is so, why include I do not like this provision at all, because in the clause the provision- it gives to the person with the powers that "The Commissioner and other officer5 are vested here almost unlimited authority. administering this Act shall have regard Mr. Hughes: Under the control of the to any directions which the Minister may Minister. give from time to time as respects policy." Mr. Hughes interjected. Mr. DUGGAN: It is not under the control of the Minister at all. Mr. DUGGAN: I do not mind him giving Mr. Hanlon: It expressly states that nobody those directions at all, but I want to see that can take action on these grounds. he has the right to ensure that they are carried out. We have no guarantee under Mr. DUGGAN: Exactly. It says- this Bill that they will be, because the Com­ "No person shall have any right or missioner can please himself. If a man 58 remedy in law on the ground that any years of age is appointed Commissioner for such ministerial direction has not been Transport and he has a seven-year term, he followed or applied by the Commissioner can thumb his nose at the Government if or any such officer." 2040 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill

In other words, the Minister can give the It is not my intention to speak for 25 Commissioner a ministerial direction. We minutes, and thus debar myself from coming have no written record of the direction hav­ back into the debate should it be necessary. ing been given, and if it is given either I am in agreement with the proposed amend­ verbally or in writing the Commissioner can, ment. It has merit, and I think it would if he wishes, thumb his nose at the Minister. strengthen the provisions of this very weak We are going to have the position now that Bill, which shows the stamp of bureaucracy public and private organisations have no in a very important matter. According to right of access to the Minister in these the Minister for Transport the Premier has deputations. If a person goes along and said that he is sick and tired of the problems says to the Minister for Transport, "I want of transport. In his election speech the Premier said that he was going to have a to discuss with you a question of trans­ transport administrator but he has decided port"-and the Minister knows that he has to change that. He did not say that there had dozens and dozens of conferences with would be a revocation of licences; he did interested parties over a period time-is this not say that there would be a repudiation an excuse for the Minister to say to that of contracts. person, "I am getting sick to death of seeing you people. I am not going to see YQU Mr. Hart: There is no repudiation. any more, because I have no power. Yol! Mr. DUGGAN: I have a very lively go along and see the Commissioner and appreciation of my friend's legal knowledge, argue with him." That is what could happen. and I do not want to make any unfair Mr. Hughes: How long would the Com­ criticism of him because of his innate missioner last if he attempted to thumb his modesty and courtesy. But I think he is nose? inclined to be flippant with his interjections, and I say with every respect that there is a Mr. DUGGAN: He has seven years under repudiation. this Act. He has absolute power, and he I feel that the clause is a retrogressive can please himself what he does. Unless step. I have a very great respect for mem­ it is proved that the Commissioner has bers of the Public Service-their knowledge, become a bankrupt or an alcoholic, or has industry, and desire to serve-but they must become insane, or something of that sort, never get it into their heads that they are or has been guilty of gross misbehaviour. the final arbiters of public opinion. They he cannot be removed. If he is, he has to should never be placed in a position where be paid compensation unless he is removed they are superior to Parliament. The late for one of those well-founded reasons. Hon. W. Forgan Smith said on one occa­ sion, "Ministers should have experts, but Anybody knowing the Commissioner for they should be on tap and not top." That Transport would not disqualify him for being was very sound advice. insane, bankrupt or an alcoholic. Conse­ I reserve my right to re-enter the discus­ quently there are no powers to dismiss him. sion. Why is he going to be dismissed? Because he has not carried out Ministerial rolicy? Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (9.29 p.m.): I The hon. member for Kurilpa asked, "How move the following amendment:- long would the Commissioner for Transport "On page 13, after line 5, insert the last if he did not carry out the policy of the following paragraph:- Minister?" What a damaging admission to 'Any such directions shall be in writ­ make! On the one hand he is trying to say ing signed by the Minister, and the Com­ that the Minister wants to wash his hands missioner shall file and keep in his of all these controversial questions and vest office all such directions'." this power in the Commissioner. Having Both the Minister for Transport and the done so the Minister has the supplementary Premier have copies of the amendment. I power of telling the Commissioner what his take it that they have had time to study its policy should be. On the other hand the implications. In all modesty I suggest it is hon. member for Kurilpa says that the Com­ one that the Minister should accept with missioner would not last very long if he did open arms. If he does not, the Committee not do what the Minister told him to do. is entitled to conclude that the Minister will Yet the Bill is designed to convev to the get up to some skull-duggery and issue public that the Minister wants to 'be com­ secretly instructions or directions to the pletely neutral and impartial, and to leave Commissioner on which the law says, if the resolving of these complex problems to this Bill is passed, that the Commissioner the Commissioner. The hon. member can­ shall have regard to any directions which not have it every way, but he is trying to. the Minister may give from time to time in respect to policy. It could, of course, result The hon. member for Mt. Gravatt says that in a real dogfight between the Commissioner the law enables the Commissioner to alter and the Minister because that is apparently licences. We say that in the main all of these not one of the things for which the Com­ things, with the exception of the application missioner can be dismissed, that is, if he of Section 92 of the Commonwealth Constitu­ fails to pay regard to the directions of the tion, could be done under the provisions of Minister. the existing Act. We feel very strongly It is an important matter and I think the about it. statements made by the Minister himself State Transport Bill [1 DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 2041

justify his accepting this amendment. It is Therefore, the Minister could give a direction not a question of how he may think I on policy and it could affect an individual's construe the statements made in court; they welfare-it could affect his livelihood-and, were in fact made in court, and the court to the extent that the Commissioner fails was in fact adjourned after a statement was to give effect to it, he has no remedy at made by the Commissioner that the Minister law. What a lovely state of affairs! This had given him certain notes in writing. The is a Government led by a Premier who court decided to adjourn to enable those talked about bringing down a Bill of Rights papers to be found. As they were never and actually brought it before this Assembly found, we can conclude only that there must for discussion up to the second-reading have been something in them that the stage! Now, of course, it has gone into the Minister did not want to have brought to waste-paper basket. Twelve months ago light. That is a fair assumption because, they had the view that there should be a whatever notings were made on them, they Bill of Rights to protect the people of this would revolve round a decision that Cabinet State but now they are denying to certain had made. people what is an obvious right. Where is the hon. member for Mt. Gravatt, to defend Mr. Chalk: Which was confirmed by a the paragraph that reads- Cabinet minute. "Neither the Supreme Court nor any Mr. WALSH: I suggest that they would other court or judicial tribunal whatso­ have been documents that should have been ever shall have jurisdiction to entertain filed by the Commissioner. any suit, action or other proceeding what­ Mr. Chalk: Not at all. soever for enforcing a right, remedy or claim alleged to be had by any person by Mr. W ALSH: The Minister may not think virtue of such ministerial direction." so, but I have no doubt about it. On the one hand the individual is affected Mr. Chalk: If I sent you a note and to the extent that the Commissioner has not later a complete covering letter would you given effect to the Minister's direction. He still keep the note? has no right at law. On the other hand, if effect has been given to the Minister's Mr. W ALSH: I have no doubt that the direction he still has no right at law. And Minister will still find within the Transport the Government are the people who talk Department numerous notes written in the about the right of appeal! How frequently handwriting of different individuals and put have we heard Government members when on files as evidence in addition to any com­ in opposition speak of the right of appeal. munication that the department may have You, Mr. Dewar, will recall that they sent out-and rightly so. I have frequently frequently spoke of the matter. The right of done it in my capacity as member for appeal is all the more justified in these Bundaberg. People have handed me notes circumstances. The individual should be in their own handwriting. I have filed them given the fullest protection and opportunity away and noted it that they were documents to exercise his right to go to law in respect to coming from certain persons. I cannot see anything the Minister of the Commissioner why the Minister should resist the amend­ may or may not have done. That right is ment. all the more justified when we have regard Anyhow, the principle is clear enough; it to the enormous sums of monev invested is not one on which there should be lengthy in the transport industry. That is a matter argument. I cannot understand why the that will be dealt with later. It has a vital Minister or the Premier-no doubt the effect on the contracts entered into with Premier has been consulted-will not accept hire-purchase companies by owners of motor the amendment to protect the Government vehicles. I should like to hear the Minister's and the Ministry. Don't forget, the Govern­ view again, and I will have the opportunity ment are not going to be the Government of commenting on it. for long. Mr. HANLON (Baroona) (9.37 p.m.): The clause as it stands is very confusing, to say Mr. Chalk: You hope. the least. It is most obnoxious. In view of Mr. W ALSH: And the Governments who the Government's experience in transport will succeed this one, irrespective of what matters over the recent months, I should else they might do with this Bill when it think they would accept the amendment becomes law, may take advantage of this moved by the hon member for Bundaberg. provision and say, "Well, if it was good It tidies up the clause to some extent by enough for the previous Government to do providing that a record shall be kept of it, we will leave it there." directions given by the Minister. Under There are two other paragraphs of this the clause as it stands. no record of direc­ clause, one of which reads- tions has to be made. Even with the addition of the amendment the clause itself would "No person shall have any right or not be very good. As it stands, it is remedy in law on the ground that any ambiguous. such ministerial direction has not been followed or applied by the Commissioner I pointed out at the second-reading stage or any such officer." that on the one hand the clause states that 2042 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill the Minister will lay down policy, while Mr. HANLON: I do not know what on the other it states that the Commissioner sort of reflection that is on Mr. McCawley, does not have to take any notice of him. as a barrister, or if the Minister is going What sort of clause is it? to suggest that he would deliberately tell It reads- an untruth-- "The Commissioner and other officers Mr. Chalk: I do say he was telling an administering this Act shall have regard untruth. to any directions which the Minister may Mr. HANLON:--and bring forward give from time to time as respects policy." something in court that he had not been The Minister's directions would not be of instructed on by his instructing solicitor, much value if they were not worth uphold­ who in turn would have received his instruc­ ing. The clause states specifically that no tions from the people concerned, the action can be taken on the ground that the Andersons, including the hon. member for directions have not been carried out. If they Toowoomba East. That is why I asked the wanted the clause applied in that way they hon. member for Toowoomba East to confirm should have provided that the Commissioner or deny that the Minister had given prior "may" have regard to the directions of the approbation, because he was in a position Minister, not "shall" have regard. The clause to do so. He was one of those named as directs that he shall have regard to directions having been present when that prior given by the Minister, but it does not provide approbation was given. However, I do not wish that the directions have to be carried out. to argue the pros and cons of that question. The Minister seems to be confused. Earlier The Minister has in effect claimed he made when speaking to Clause 4 he suggested this statement: "Go over the border and he did not have the right to lay down policy. if you get caught it is your bad luck", and these people suggest he said something like Mr. Chalk: I did not say that. I asked this, "Go over the border and we will see who prepared policy. you don't get caught", or "We will not be around when you do." That just shows Mr. HANLON: It would be Cabinet, I how ambiguous a statement can be, and suppose. I do not know. But it would be on how varying interpretations can be placed the Minister's recommendation. But whether on it. That is why I said in my speech in policy is determined by the Minister or Cab­ the introductory stage that it was a similar inet, the Minister did not seem to think he had type of ambiguous statement that brought any authority under Clause 6 to suggest any about the Foley case. I do not wish to go policy to the Commissioner on the con­ into the pros and cons of that case either but, tinuing of licences. It seemed to Opposition as I remember it, the basis of the commission members that he was not too clear on that was that Mr. Foley alleged he had made point; that he was not clear about Clause 6. a statement like this: "You people don't give us much support. Why should you Mr. Chalk: I am perfectly clear. expect something?", and, on the other hand, Mr. HANLON: Let us consider some of the people to whom he was speaking alleged the things that have resulted from this type that he said, "If you don't give us something of clause that the Government want to retain. in the form of cash you won't get what you The court proceedings against Western Trans­ are asking for." That was a statement some­ port are a good indication that we certainly what similar to the statement in the present should not have clauses of this type, or at case, and it was open to different inter­ pretations. We must not forget that two of least that some record should be kept. The us could say the same sentence and yet we claim was made on behalf of Western could imply completely different meanings, Transport that the Minister had given them even though we used exactly the same words. prior approbation in crossing the border contrary to the State Facilities Transport In Clause 6 we find this vague sort of an Act provisions at the time. The Minister arrangement whereby the Minister can give has since denied that, and has said that he verbal direction to the Commissioner who may have said, "Well, I cannot stop you does not have to take any notice of it, and going over, but if you go over and get yet the clause says he shall. There is caught you will have to pay the penalty." somewhat the same element of ambiguity On the other hand, according to the evidence about that. given in court in the proceedings against Let us look at the cancellation of the Western Transport, people associated with Downs Transport licence. We find a similar the firm claimed that the Minister had said argument in court over the actual words something like this: "Go over the border used, and the intention that was conveyed, and we won't worry about it." by the Minister and the Premier to the minute secretary of the Cabinet, Mr. Mr. Chalk: Where was that given in Fletcher. When the Government assumed evidence? office they took steps to provide a secretary Mr. HANLON: I think it was Mr. to record minutes of Cabinet decisions. That McCawley, on behalf of-- had never been done before, but they said it was a risk to have Ministers scribbling Mr. Chalk: Mr. McCawley, a barrister, notes on files without a proper record of said something. the decisions of Cabinet. They introduced State Transport Bill [1 DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 2043 this system of having Cabinet minutes Mr. Hanlon: You are getting rattled now. recorded, and surely the necessity to have What does it matter? Anybody can move decisions recorded should apply equally here. an amendment in the next half-hour if he If it is necessary to have Cabinet minutes wants to. recorded, it is equally necessary to have some record of the directions given by the Mr. CHALK: I am not denying that. All Minister to the Commissioner. If, a few I say is that the amendment was circu­ months after the Minister has given one lated and it was handed to me by the hon. of these directions to the Commissioner, member for Bundaberg. The Leader of the Cabinet members want to know what it was, Opposition made specific reference to it what will happen? They may be considering and, in my opinion, stole what might be a complaint and may ask the Minister, "What regarded as part of the argument that the direction did you give the Commissioner?" hon. member for Bundaberg intended to All he will be able to give them will be advance. I have no objection to that. his recollection of what he said and it is Mr. Walsh: It is his right as Leader of possible the Commissioner may not agree the Opposition. with him. Mr. CHALK: Absolutely, but I am pass­ When the case of Downs Transport was ing my comment on it. before the court over the cancellation of the licence, considerable argument revolved The clause provides that the Commis­ round the question whether Cabinet had sioner and other officers administering the confirmed the decision, or the recommen­ Act shall have regard to any directions that dation. of the Commissioner for Transport, the Minister may give them from time to or the then Acting Commissioner, to cancel time on policy. Before that was written the licence. Originally it was recorded in into the Bill, we carefully examined legis­ the minutes of the Cabinet meeting, which lation in other States and took particular were produced in court, as having been the interest in the Act recently passed in Great Acting Commissioner's "recommendation" Britain after a commission had inquired that the licence should be cancelled. Next into various transport matters there. day it was altered when the minutes were This is only a new booklet; in fact, it corrected-as minutes are corrected at any has come into the Parliamentary Library meeting if they are not in order-to read only recently. that Cabinet had confirmed the "decision" Mr. Walsh: This looks as if you have of the Acting Commissioner. It shows how quoted from the Soviet Acts. much importance can be placed on the dif­ ference between two words. They may Mr. CHALK: The hon. member would appear to be similar in meaning but there be more capable of doing that than I would. may be an important legal difference The report from the Select Committee on between them. The Minister would do well Nationalised Industries laid it down that to be guided by those experiences of argu­ the Minister's statutory position gave him ments through misinterpretation and powers that include the appointment of ambiguity of statements, even in the Cabinet members of the Commission, the right to meeting itself. I am sure that every mem­ approve of the general lines along which ber of the Parliament has the fullest con­ any major reorganisation is to take place, fidence in the integrity and ability of the and the power to issue general directions to minute secretary to the Cabinet but, like the Commission on matters affecting the anybody else at a meeting, he takes down public interest. In other words, the English what he thinks has been decided and it is Act lays down those powers in exactly the quite possible that he put a w;ong inter­ same way as we have laid them down in pretation on the decision of Cabinet. Next this Bill. day when they saw that it had been recorded incorrectly, they made the altera­ The second and third paragraphs appear­ tion to what they thought they had said. ing in the particular clause are there for So a very capable public servant in taking a specific purpose. Enforcement of a down the minutes of Cabinet gets one direction on a question of policy is a matter word-but a very important word-different between the Minister and the Commis­ from _what the Cabinet actually decided, sioner and is not a matter that should be accordmg to them. The position could be used by a third party as a basis on which much the same with the Commissioner and legal action can be taken against the Com­ the Minister, under Clause 6. For that missioner. The Minister has the right to set reason I think the amendment will improve up a basis of policy for the Commissioner, the clause even though it will still not be and if the Commissioner does not carry out very satisfactory. that policy, any action is between the Minister and the Commissioner, not some­ Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ thing to be seized upon by an outside third Minister for Transport) (9.48 p.m.): I have party and made the subject of litigation. listened to the arguments advanced by the That is exactly what the third party desires, Leader of the Opposition on an amendment because once litigation is set in motion the that was framed by the hon. member for Government. through their Commissioner, Bundaberg. It surprised me a little that he cannot proceed to carry out the policy they spoke before the mover of the amendment have laid down. We have already seen evi­ but that is a matter between themselves. ' dence of the stalling tactics that have been 2044 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill adopted by certain haulier interests in an nearer and nearer to the state of dictator­ endeavour to delay the passage of particu­ ship that is being built up in Queensland, lar legislation, or to delay the implemen­ particularlY. having regard to the legislation tation of a particular policy of the Trans­ introduced by the Minis!er for Labour and port Department. This clause was designed, Industry. It is becoming more and more and very rightly designed, with a full know­ a police State. Here is a clause virtually ledge of what had been experienced in the setting up a dictatorship between the Minister past and a desire to so write it into the Act and the Commissioner. Irrespective of what that we would not find ourselves involved may be decided-whether the Minister decides in litigation that is nothing more than an to give the Commissioner any directions, or attempt by a third party to use delaying the Commissioner decides to thumb his nose tactics. at the Minister-it still is written into the As to the amendment, the hon. member Bill that the Commissioner shall do these for Bundaberg has suggested that we should things. It is a very dangerous principle to add to the clause a paragraph saying- retain, and for that reason I register my very strong opposition to it. "Any such direction shall be in writing signed by the Minister, and the Com­ Mr. HANLON (Baroona) (9.57 p.m.): I missioner shall file and keep in his office do not want to waste time on the clause all such directions." but the Minister's statement on the amend­ ment moved by the hon. member for Bunda­ I say to the hon. member now that he berg was one of the most remarkable I have knows as well as I do that that is not the ever heard. He said that any difference of procedure in any other department, and that opinion on what the Minister might direct it is not the normal procedure laid down the Commissioner to do was a matter between in any particular legislation. the Commissioner and the Minister; that it Mr. Walsh: Nor is this provision in any had nothing to do with anyone who might other Act. have suffered serious financial loss through the direction not having been carried out. Mr. CHALK: This Act is similar to any The Minister virtually says that the Govern­ other Act relating to a department where ment and the Commissioner are the only there is a Commissioner. As far as I am ones who count. Apparently the Bill is concerned, we will continue to administer supposed to have nothing at all to do with the Transport Department on a fair basis the public, whose interests are paramount. and we will give due recognition to the Apparently they have no right to go to law. clause as we have written it into the Bill. The Minister says that if we do not have this clause in the Bill, or if we alter the I am not prepared to accept the clause, we will have litigation. Good heavens, amendment. what is litigation? In 99 times out of 100 it is the result of legislation passed by this Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (9.54 p.m.): and other Parliaments. That is what litiga­ Obviously the Minister wants to carry on tion is for. That is what the courts are for. the policy of which the Government are It is so that people can take advantage of suspected now, more particularly in the light their civil rights. of the statements that have been made relat­ ing to court hearings. Apparently he wants The Minister has been talking about the to give some instructions to the Commissioner hon. member for Brisbane coming in in an that he does not want the general public to airy-fairy manner. I could not imagine any­ know anything about. He has argued that one less airy-fairy than the hon. member for this does not apply in any other department. Brisbane. When it comes to describing his I ask the Minister whether he can quote any very solid submissions as airy-fairy, I do not other Act relating to public administration know what the Minister's attitude towards in Queensland in which there is a similar this clause amounts to when he completely provision. Why would not the Government dismisses the public. As the previous speaker lay it down in the Lands Act that the Lands pointed out, it is an unfortunate trend of Administration Commission should have the Government that is growing every day. regard to the policy laid down by the Minis­ Even the hon. member for Toowoomba East ter for Public Lands? If the Government are concluded his remarks by saying that he going to determine as a new feature of their disagreed with certain clauses in the Bill, policy that in every case, irrespective of what although he was prepared to give it a go. the law is on these matters, the department He said that he was proud to be associated and public officers administering the law shall with the Government because they were try­ have regard to any direction that is given ing to do the right thing in administering by the Minister on policy, it would not matter transport and other matters in the best inter­ what Parliament decided or what law was ests of the State. But what did the hon. decided upon by Parliament. The stage could member give to the Press a couple of months be reached where the Minister would say, ago when the Minister announced plans for "That is not what I want to do; this is how weighbridges and check points? He said you have to do it." If that feature is to that it was only another example of the be written into the legislation of the Govern­ police State and that under this Government ment I suppose it will be sufficient grounds Queensland was becoming more and more for saying that the Government are getting a police State every day. If the Minister State Transport Bill [1. DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 2045 for Transport is going to adopt that attitude not prepared to deal with licensed services we shall have to transfer the title from the in the same way as they are dealing with the Minister for Labour and Industry. We have Commissioner and the Deputy Commissioner. been giving him a belting-- In subsequent clauses of the Bill, however, The CHAffiMAN: Order! they showed they were prepared to protect a number of other individuals or services. Mr. HANLON: Because of the statement Earlier the Minister referred to his con­ of the Minister for Transport that the public fidence in the Commissioner for Transport. did not matter, and that the Government are He pointed out when making that remark justified in doing this sort of thing to avoid that the present Commissioner has held his litigation, I should say that the Minister for position only since last February. Am I Labour and Industry is not the bad to assume from that remark that the Minister influence in Cabinet that we thought he was. did not have confidence in the previous It must be the Minister for Transport who Commissioner? brings this atmosphere of power politics­ Mr. Chalk: You are mad. and to heck with the public-into the Government. I think the Minister should Mr. W AlSH: In reply to that, I say there explain his remarks in that regard. are two doctors on the Government side of the Committee and I am sure they would Question-That the paragraph proposed to certify the Minister at any time as being be inserted in Clause 6 (Mr. Walsh's amend­ "over the line". Only a man of his mentality ment) be so inserted-put; and the Com­ would have the hide to bring down a Bill mittee divided- such as this. I would not wonder if the two AYES, 22 doctors on the Government side of the Com­ Mr. Adair Mr. Houston mittee were at times worried about the ., Bromley Inch Burrows , Lloyd mental health of the Minister. Byrne M ann If the Minister's remark means that he Davies , Melloy Dean , Sherrington had just as much confidence in the previous Donald ~' Thackeray Commissioner as he has in the present Com­ Dufficy Walsh missioner, it lends emphasis to the point I , Duggan Graham Tellers: made earlier that after saying he had con­ Gunn Mr. Newton fidence in both Mr. Anderson and Mr. Kropp Hanlon , Marsden in their official positions, he then proceeded to give abundant evidence of having no NOES, 36 confidence in them. The Minister said that Mr. Armstrong Mr. Knox , Beardmore Madsen the Commissioner was administering the Act ,. Carey Morris in such a way as to limit the granting of . , Chalk , Miiller licences, which he was empowered to do. Dr. Delamothe Munro Mr. Dewar , Nicklin Is not that in itself a libel of the Evans Dr. Noble Commissioner? Ewan Mr. Pilbeam Fletcher Rae Mr. Chalk: You would twist anything. ,, Gaven Row , Gilmore Smith Mr. WAISH: I am not twisting it. , Harrison Sullivan Hart Tooth Mr. Chalk: You know that I said Section , Herbert Wharton 92 was the problem. Hewitt Windsor , Hodges Tellers: Mr. W ALSH: Section 92 has nothing to do , Hooper with Cobb & Co. and the Commissioner, and , Hughes Mr. Campbell Jones , Ramsden it has nothing to do with Western Transport. Those were the Commissioner's powers, that PAIRS is, to issue or approve the granting of licensed Mr. Davis Mr. Low service. When the Minister says that the ,, Tucker , Richter Wallace , Roberts Commissioner-whether it was Mr. Kropp or , Bennett , Hiley Mr. Anderson-failed to give effect to what ,, Baxter , Bjelke-Petersen the Minister now states is the policy of the , Hilton , Lonergan Government, he shows that he had no con­ , Diplock ,, Pizzey fidence in the Commissioner. Anybody who Resolved in the negative. knows Mr. Kropp personally would not be so stupid as to make the remarks the Minister Clause 6, as read, agreed to. made. Clause 7-Continuance in office of Com­ Mr. Chalk: Don't be so silly. missioner and Deputy Commissioner- Mr. WAISH: It is not a question of being Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (10.8 p.m.): The silly. The Minister has made the remarks Government have seen fit-and I think and I suppose he is now sorry he did. rightly so-to protect the rights of the two Mr. Chalk: I am not sorry. officers who hold the positions of Com­ missioner and Deputy Commisisoner. In Mr. WAISH: The Minister pointed out, that respect they showed inconsistency in in effect, that the present Government were their attitude to licensed services. They were not competent to carry out their duties. 2046 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill

Clause 7, as read, agreed to. friendship between the officer and the applicant. The officer may not be a police­ Clauses 8 to 10, both inclusive, as read, man. He may simply be a tick inspector agreed to. who happens to be the most convenient Clause 11-Secretary and officers- person to appoint in the area. In some areas it was considered that Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (10.14 p.m.): I people were being favoured by the officer wish to draw attention to this clause. I will exercising powers of delegation, not because exercise my rights as a member of this he was ignorant of the provisions of the Chamber, whether it pleases the Government Act but because of his close personal or not. I do not care whether they are here relationship with the applicant for a permit. until 4 o'clock. I was up at 4 o'clock this For that reason we were obliged to promul­ morning and I do not care if I go 24 hours gate a general series of circumstances and without sleep. I will keep the Government conditions under which the officer might members going. Sub-clause (1) of this clause exercise his discretion and approve of says- pern;its. If a person knows that approval "The Governor in Council shall appoint IS given for the movement of certain types a secretary to the Commissioner for Trans­ of commodities in certain circumstances, he port and may appoint all such inspectors has some understanding of what the Com­ and other officers as he deems necessary missioner has in mind; but, under the clause, for the due and proper administration of the delegated powers are of such a sweeping this Act." nature that no-one not possessed of powers of clairvoyancy could be expected to know I draw the Minister's attention to this clause what was in the Commissioner's mind. It to see if he can tell me why it differs from is a very dangerous provision. Only through the provision in the 1946 Act. It refers to the alertness of some people in the more officers and employees. I want to know concentrated areas of population of the from the Minister whether the Governor in State could effective action be taken to Council is to have any power to appoint remedy mistakes or sometimes even petty employees other than inspectors and other tyrannies in the exercise of the delegated officers. The Minister can tell me at this powers. The safeguard in Section 20 of stage why it was necessary to put in that the present Act enabled 600 or more reference to the appointment of inspectors. people in Toowoomba to voice their protest Clause 11, as read, agreed to. with some effect. But this delegated power is too sweeping and we should focus public Clause 12-Power of delegation- attention on it. The Minister may have some general comments to make but before Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba West­ he replies, if he intends to, I want to say Leader of the Opposition) (10.15 p.m.): that I realise that there must be some delega­ Rather wider powers of delegation are given tion of power and authority. We cannot by the clause than obtained previously. No control all these matters from Brisbane­ qualifications or credentials are prescribed but the extent and degree of the delegation for the person who will exercise the is so great and the person exercising the enormous powers of the Commissioner, so power may be far from the Commissioner. he becomes one of the most powerful He can make a silly mistake or, through su'ojects in the Commonwealth. These dislike of somebody, he may persecute him nameless officers, not specified in the Bill­ or do something utterly foolish and unfair, and there is no limit to their number-could yet be fully protected from any appropriate be likened to a batch of Wellington's appeal by the person affected. recruits, of whom the Duke was asked, "Do you think they will frighten the enemy?" For those reasons, I think this clause should whereupon he replied, "I don't know, but, be commented upon by me and anybody else by God, they frighten me." That is who thinks that the powers conferred by it exactly what could happen under the Bill. are too extensive. The Commissioner may delegate powers to Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (10.21 p.m.): As people he does not know and who are not specified but they are expected to carry out has been pointed out, this clause deals with what is in his mind. The officer delegated the power of delegation. In principle, it is may be out at Bullamacackie, or somewhere the equivalent of Section 14 of the 1946 Act, else in the back-blocks, and how can he but there is this difference: whereas Section know what is in the mind of the Commis­ 14 (1) said- sioner? All men are not blameless in these "The Commissioner may, with the con­ matters and even those appointed by the sent of the Minister, and shall as respects Commissioner might not be without fault, a district transport officer at the direction but persons aggrieved will have no redress of the Minister, in relation to any matters against their whims or their stupid mistakes or class of matters or in relation to any or their petty tyrannies in the exercise of specified area, by writing under his hand, their very great power. I know from delegate such of his powers, functions, and previous experience that from time to time authorities " complaints came in, not because of petty and so on, in this particular clause the con­ tyranny but perhaps because of some warm sent of the Minister is not provided for, and State Transport Bill [1 DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 2047 the Commissioner may, by writing under his Act shall be read and construed so as not hand, . ~elegate ~ll or any of his powers, to exceed the legislative power of the State. authontles, funct10ns and duties under the Act. But the clause also says-- The clause then goes on in a similar strain to Section 14 of the 1946 Act. That is all The CHAffiMAN: Order! The hon. the more reason why it is necesary to have member must refer only to the delegation some of the direction that has been envisaged of powers by the Commissioner. by the Leader of the Opposition in his Mr. LLOYD: I am referring to the dele­ remarks. Since this power has been placed in the hands of the Commissioner com­ gated powers. The Commissioner can dele­ pletely, without any reference to the Minister, gate to any person in authority in Queens­ land. He can delegate to the office or the I think that could be regarded as putting too much into the Commissioner's hands. I holder of any office the powers of the realise that in the 1946 Act the provision Commissioner himself to grant permits and making the Commissioner obliged to give make provisions for certain eventualities­ effect to any direction given by the Minister in fact, almost complete powers. By dele­ in regard to a district transport officer was gation these powers can be transferred to necessary because that Act provided for the any public servant. Regardless of the declara­ appointment of district inspectors in various tion that there is no attempt to take away parts of the State. As provision was made any of the legislative powers of the State, in the old Act for the appointment of inspec­ under the Bill any decision made will be tors, I take it that will continue. What binding. In other words, whereas under the position will we arrive at if it is intended principal Act the powers of delegation were that this new legislation should be adminis­ subject to the approval of the Minister­ tered equally over the State and there is no therefore the approval of Parliament-under provision in it compelling the Commissioner the Bill no approval is necessary either by to delegate his power to an inspector at Rock­ Parliament or the Minister. In fact, a com­ hampton or Toowoomba, or some other place? plete bureaucracy is being establishd in I think the Minister might give us reasons transport administration. I am not casting why that alteration has been made. any reflection on Mr. Kropp. In all proba­ bility he is a man who could handle the Mr. LLOYD (Kedron) (1 0.24 p.m.): In inter­ obligations and heavy responsibilities that preting this clause, I think we must read with will be placed upon him. But he is there it several other clauses of the Bill, in particu­ for only seven years. At the end of that lar the last clause that was considered by the time another Commissioner who is not a Committee, which related to the complete suitable person to accept the full responsi­ powers of the Commissioner and what we bilities may be appointed. We are taking the might call the complete bureaucracy that is powers of delegation away from the Minister being established outside ministerial control and leaving the whole matter purely and and without being answerable to Parlia~ simply to the tender mercies of a public ment. I make that statement by reference servant. to Clause 2, and I believe I can make this very relevant to the delegation of powers to Taking the Bill as a whole, the Govern­ some other person in authority, whoever he ment are tending to create a set of cir­ may be, who might be holding office under cumstances where the people of Queens­ the Crown at any particular time and to land will be placed at the mercy of whom can be delegated the complete powers one public servant, or a number of pub­ that the Commissioner holds in respect of lic servants. It has to looked at not transport permits in the State. Clause 2 merely as a delegating of authority; this reads- clause must be considered in conjunction "This Act and every Proclamation, Order with the effect of the whole Bill. If the in Council, regulation, license, permit--" principle is to be accepted that the Com­ missioner for Transport should have this The CHAffiMAN: Order! Is the hon. power, the same principle has to be accepted member reading subclause (2) of clause 12? in respect of every public servant in Queens­ land who might be delegated a Commis­ Mr. LLOYD: Clause 2. sioner's representative. The CHAffiMAN: Clause 2 of the Bill? Sub-clause (2) of Clause 12 reads- Mr. LLOYD: Yes. "Where, by or under this Act, the exercise of a power, authority, or function The CHAffiMAN: We have passed Clause or performance of a duty of the Com­ 2. missioner is dependent upon the opinion, Mr. LLOYD: It has very great bearing on belief or state of mind of the Commis­ this clause. sioner in relation to any matter, that power, authority, function or duty may The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. mem­ be exercised or performed upon the ber will confine his remarks to clause 12. opinion, belief or state of mind of the Mr. LLOYD: I shall do so, but let me say person to whom it is delegated under this that another clause of this Bill says that the section." 2048 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill

In other words, the Commissioner's delegate, to make an on-the-spot decision and autho­ who has the complete powers of the Com­ rise a particular officer who is administering missioner, has the sole responsibility. There the Act in a locality to take some particular is no appeal to any court of law. There action. may be an appeal to the Minister, but that Mr. Mann: Without any reference to the delegated person need not accept a direction Minister. that any Minister of the Crown may, under the Bill, in future give to him. It is an Mr. CHALK: Quite so; without any refer­ obnoxious clause. ence to the Minister. I make no apology for that. We have complete confidence in Mr. DAVIES (Maryborough) (1 0.29 p.m.): the Commissioner, and in future Commis­ I must express great pleasure at the fact sioners, whether they be appointed by this that the Leader of the Opposition and other Government or by some other Government. speakers on this side have several times Consequently, I cannot see that there is any expressed the dangerous tendency of both sound argument against this clause. It does the Commonwealth Government and this nothing more or less than legalise the deci­ Government to place absolute power in the sion of the Commissioner to delegate his hands of top public servants. In recent authority to an officer charged with carrying years, representatives of Parliaments from out the administration of the Act in an area. all parts of the British Commonwealth of Nations have devoted considerable time to All hon. members know that the clerk of discussing this matter. I am very happy that petty sessions, say, at Charleville, or the that note of warning has been sounded. senior sergeant or inspector of police in that Mr. Kropp, for whom I have nothing but area, possibly represents the Commissioner the highest respect, may be the wisest of there and, whichever officer it is communi­ men but accidents can happen; he could cates with the Commissioner, and outlines be stricken with sickness and the man who a set of circumstances that are necessary to replaces him may not be so wise. It is a ensure that the Act is implemented in that dangerous precedent and I very much regret area. It is therefore essential that the Com­ that there has not been included in this missioner should be able to delegate his clause some such phrase as "with the con­ authority, as laid down, to that person. sent of the Minister." Because of that we feel that there is nothing wrong with this legislation. We are simply There is a growing and very dangerous making provision for a delegation of that tendency in our democracy to place this abso­ authority. lute power in the hands of top public servants. Mr. Dufficy: And you want to avoid any It is a dangerous principle no matter how Ministerial responsibility. wise they may be or how fitted to cope with the position in the interests of the people Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (10.34 p.m.): as a whole. The Minister has said that I drew atten­ tion to the fact that this clause contains Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ the principles of the 1946 Act but I must Minister for Transport) (1 0.31 p.m.): I remind him that, in effect, a clause already believe that on this occasion the hon. mem­ agreed to by the Committee directs the ber for Bundaberg was closer to the exact Commissioner to have regard to any direc­ position applying under this new clause than tion given by the Minister. were other hon. members. He said that it was more or less an alteration of Section 14 Mr. Chalk: On policy. of the old Act but that it eliminated the consent of the Minister or by direction of Mr. W ALSH: On policy, exactly. The the Minister from the legislation. That is implementation of this clause is of far true. We have already expressed in this more importance than the implementation of legislation our complete confidence in the the provision of the Act for the reason Commissioner for Transport, and for that that the Commissioner, having taken into matter, in any future Commissioner for consideration the directions of the Minister Transport. We believe the Commissioner on policy, can in turn delegate his powers, should be a man who can carry out the functions and duties to other officers. The implementation of this legislation, which will Commissioner can delegate his powers, ultimately become the new transport policy. functions and duties to officers throughout Queensland in accordance with the directions Having said that, we indicate first of all of the Minister, and so we will have a spread our approval of the ability of the Commis­ of political poison throughout the length sioner to lay down the basis of administra­ and breadth of the transport administration tion. In the past a Commissioner, in of this State. The Minister cannot get away approaching the Minister for a delegation from it. As the Bill provides that political of power. has often found that delay occurs policy and not the law of the land and it is very often necessary for the Commis­ shall be taken into consideration by sioner to delegate some powers to a police the Commissioner, obviously the Com­ officer or other public servant such as a missioner wiii be giving effect to the wishes of clerk of petty sessions in remote parts of the Minister, not only in the metropolitan area the State. All that this clause does is to but also in every other part of Queensland. legalise the authority of the Commissioner Although the Commissioner is protected by State Transport Bill [1 DECEMBER) State Transport Bill 2049 virtue of his appointment under the legisla­ the Committee stage to the fact that there tion for seven years-subject to the dis­ was this discrimination between the carriage qualifications laid down in the Public Service of goods by road and the carriage of Act particularly-if the Government want passengers by road. I cited the case of Mr. to get rid of him they will be able to find Penfold, the proprietor of Greyhound ways and means of getting rid of him, that Coaches, and indicated that at the time this is, if he does not give effect to the directions measure was being drafted for submission of the Minister in the exercise of his powers. to Parliament negotiations were being con­ ducted whereby he would acquire the Blue The CHAIRMAN: Order! The clause deals with the power of delegation. and Red Bus Service to the South Coast. Unquestionably the passenger service he Mr. W ALSH: Quite so. If the Commis­ operates-and operates very efficiently­ sioner does not delegate powers or duties­ would now be-and was before this new not so much the powers as the duties-in merger-the largest passenger-hire service such a way that political policy is taken into operating in this State. If the Minister was consideration, the Government will deal with sincere in his desire to break up these him in the same way as they dealt with monopolies, one would have thought he another public servant-another officer­ would have taken action to prevent this who had the protection of Parliament and happening in the passenger field. The who was described by a judge of the Supreme Minister did not answer my charges. All he Court as a witness of the highest integrity did was to speak of share dealings. and honesty. They got rid of him and they will get rid of the Commissioner if he fails I do not attack Mr. Penfold in his to delegate his powers in accordance with business or personal capacity. I have known the wishes of the Minister or the directions him for probably 30 years and I lived within of the Minister on policy. a few yards of him for many years when Clause 12, as read, agreed to. he lived in Toowoomba. It has not made any difference to our personal friendship Clauses 13 and 14, as read, agreed to. because he happens to be a C.M.O. alder­ Clause 15-Application of this Part­ man. I am not criticising him in his personal capacity. He has done a very good Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (10.39 p.m.): job. He is a very hard worker and for a This clause is the first in Part Ill of the number of years he fought, under very great Bill, which covers vehicles for hire. I draw difficulties, to establish a passenger service the attention of the Committee to the fact between Toowoomba and Brisbane. The that the Government and the Minister have hon. member for Bundaberg, who was gone out of their way in the first two Minister for Transport before me, will paragraphs of sub-clause (1) to see that road­ probably remember that he was involved passenger services are protected. in a great deal of litigation in retaining that Part HI includes Clauses 15 to 24, and service. Under the provisions of the State many things are covered by those clauses. Transport Facilities Act of 1946, notwith­ Whatever is provided by subsequent clauses, standing that in the interval of time he had the Bill at the beginning of Part Ill makes been involved in many prosecutions, he was it clear that the provisions of Part III will automatically given a right to a licence not apply to- because he was operating. He developed the "(a) a vehicle approved by the Com­ Greyhound Service and he operates it very missioner for use in carrying on a service efficiently. He now becomes unquestionably, for the carriage of passengers licensed in the field of passenger transport, a trans­ under Part IV while that vehicle is being port Czar. That is the term the Minister used for the purpose of carrying on that coined for Mr. Bolton. service. Probably nothing but good can accrue "(b) a vehicle while that vehicle is from developments of this sort. Mr. Penfold being used for the carriage of passengers has provided an excellent passenger terminal under and in accordance with a permit;" here. That is one of the advantages of a There again is clear evidence that the monopoly. There may be need for restraint Government have set out to discriminate and competition, but if the service is between licensed services for the carriage of sufficiently extensive and if the patronage is goods and those for the carriage of sufficiently good there is an opportunity to passengers by road. provide amenities, such as waiting rooms, All through this measure we can see the which only a large organisation can provide. same evidence of discrimination. I just want I am not against Mr. Penfold's acquiring to draw attention to it to remind hon. mem­ the Blue and Red Bus Service, but I feel bers that no matter what may happen in I should emphasise the point that, as has the subsequent clauses, this type of vehicle already been said, there has been discrimina­ is exempted. tion and it has been very much encouraged when the Minister says his express purpose Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba West­ for introducing this Bill is to break up the Leader of the Opposition) (11.41 p.m.): I monopolies of the transport Czars. should like to reply to a point made by the Minister concerning passenger services Mr. Hughes: He was not operating in corn• throughout the State. I directed attention in petition with them. 2050 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill

Mr. DUGGAN: That is all the more licences have in most cases been men with reason why the Minister should not permit a desire to give a service to the public and the merger, because under the provisions of men who have, over a period, built up a this Bill it is intended to give them an service that has rendered valuable assistance "open go." It is only a question of when to the development of an area. If we were they have thoroughly emasculated their com­ to make the basis of granting permits such petitors, and in this case they have no that anybody could set up a passenger ser­ competitors because their competitors will vice willy-nilly, I am sure that those who have to get a licence, and therefore they today receive a service from the passenger have limited their competition. So long as operators would soon find that it would be he remains in the good graces of the Com­ lost altogether. So we have looked very missioner he can charge whatever he likes. carefully at the set-up of passenger services. I repeat that I am not attacking Mr. Penfold, but merely emphasising that under I want to go on record as saying that I this legislation he is permitted to expand have told some passenger-service operators very extensively. This Bill not only that if the set-up becomes monopolistic and encourages him to do so but it gives pro­ if they do not give a service to the community, tection because the express purpose and the Government will not stand for it. I intention of the Bill is to prevent the expan­ am sorry that Penfold's name has been sion of the road-transport operators in other brought into the debate, but Mr. Penfold respects. did recently acquire the Blue and Red Bus service to the South Coast. He is entitled Mr. HANLON (Baroona) (10.45 p.m.): I to do so as he could buy a certain number want to take this opportunity to express my of shares in the company. He will take opposition to the leasing of taxi-cabs in some over a licence that has some time to run. circumstances. A statement was made the There have been a few difficulties on the other day by Mr. Morris, Secretary of the South Coast but we have tried to iron them Taxi-Cab Owner-Drivers' Association, that out. the practice of leasing taxi-cabs had almost been eliminated, but I think there is a good Because I believe there is quite a difference deal of it still going on in view of the fact between conducting a passenger service and that so many people are anxious to get taxi conducting a goods service, we have adopted licences. in the Bill what might be termed the basis laid down in previous legislation. The CHAIRMAN: Order! I think the hon. member is anticipating Part IV.-Road Pas­ Clause 15, as read, agreed to. senger Services. That will be the appro­ Clause 16-Interpretation-as read, agreed priate Part on which to debate matters affect­ to. ing taxi-cabs, and I suggest that he reserve his remarks till that Part comes before the Clause 17-Issue, renewal and transfer of Committee. licenses to hire- Mr. HANLON: I am quite happy to do Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (10.50 p.m.): so, Mr. Taylor, but I thought that Clause Again I remind the Minister that this is more 15 (2) (c), covering vehicles plying or stand­ or less a continuance of the principles con­ ing for hire for the carriage of passengers tained in Section 37 of the 1946 Act, with or goods, or both passengers and goods, a slight difference in the wording. I should would cover taxi-cabs. I know there are like to ask the Minister to tell the Committee other similar provisions later. why Clause 17 (2) says-- "A license to hire shall not be issued, The CHAffiMAN: I think that Clause 25 renewed or transferred in respect of a deals more adequately with that subject and vehicle unless- is the more appropriate Part for the dis­ cussion, and I suggest that the hon. member (a) if the vehicle is required to be reserve his remarks till then. registered under 'The Main Roads Acts, 1920 to 1959,' a certificate of registra­ Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ tion or of renewal of registration there­ Minister for Transport) (10.47 p.m.): I want under in respect of the vehicle is current; to reply briefly to the point raised by the (b) a certificate is produced to the Leader of the Opposition on passenger ser­ Commissioner which satisfies him that vices and goods services. In the introductory such vehicle complies with the require­ stage I tried to set out that we believed that ments of 'The Inspection of Machinery there was a vast difference between the Acts, 1951 to 1960'; and operations of a passenger service and the operations of a goods service. A goods (c) such vehicle is constructed and service need not run to a regular timetable­ equipped as prescribed," it is based on the availability of a load-and I am not raising any objection to this provi­ the licensee can carry goods more or less at sion, but further on in the Bill I think there an unspecified time so, while he provides a is a clause in which similar principles are service, it is not the same as a passenger laid down and which also provides that evi­ service. With passenger service in Queens­ dence that the Motor Vehicles Insurance Act land, we have found that the holders of has been complied with must be produced. State Transport Bill [1 DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 2051

Mr. Windsor: If it is not there, you will goods, but Clause 37 (2) provides that find it. there shall be no claim as of right for a permit. To get a permit you must have a Mr. W ALSH: It is not in this particular licensed vehicle, but to get a new licence clause, but I should like the Minister to tell for a vehicle-and all licences for vehicles us why it is not in the clause when another as from the inception of the Act will be clause provides that evidence shall be pro­ new licences-you have to see what happens duced that the Motor Vehicles Insurance Act in Clause 18. The Commissioner may sub­ has been complied with. mit such licences for sale (a) by public Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ tender, or (b) at a price fixed by him. In Minister for Transport) (10.52 p.m.): the case of a sale by public tender of a I think Clause 17 repeats exactly what licence to hire, the Commissioner may is in the existing legislation. If as we pro­ accept the tender he likes, or he may decline to accept any tender. Consequently it is ceed the hon. member for Bundaberg can at the basic discretion of the Commissioner point out to me the clause to which he is whether he elects to select one, two or more, referring, I will have a look at it. but under this pa:ovision the Commissioner Clause 17, as read, agreed to. is not obliged to accept anybody. He may Clause iS-Commissioner may invite appli­ confine it to one, as I mentioned earlier cations- tonight. There may be three or four and, particularly in the case of three or four Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (10.53 p.m.): licensed operators in Toowoomba at the Again I draw the attention of the Minister present time, there is no guarantee that they and the Committee to another piece of evi­ will have the right to operate in the future dence showing that the former Government as they have done in the past. A lot of set out to protect the rights of existing optimistic people may think they can make holders of licences under the State Transport a profit on the basis of a fixed price or a Acts, 1938 to 1943. Clause 18 of this Bill public tender, but that sort of thing will does not provide for the same discretionary only have the effect of undercutting and all power as was given to the Commissioner the dangers we expressed earlier about the regarding the holders of licences under the working of excessive hours and the likeli­ Act to which I have referred. If the Minister hood of trucks being used excessively on cares to look it up, he will find that Section 29 the road. (2) reads-- I am not going to take up the time of "The Commissioner may, without first the Committee with a repetition of all we inviting applications therefor by public mentioned earlier as being the reason for advertisement, but subject to obtaining the the introduction of the 1946 Act. The prior approval of the Governor in Council, Commissioner may decide to hold a ballot, issue a license to provide and carry on a in which the chances might be one in 100, service for the carriage of passengers, or one in 200. or one in 300. If the existing goods, or both passengers and goods- licensed carrier does not succeed in a ballot his assets are virtually useless. He has an (a) To a holder of a license or licenses empty depot and trucks that are virtually under 'The State Transport Acts, 1938 to valueless. That is one of the great dan­ 1943,' in force upon the date upon which gers of repudiation and the inability to know this Act comes into operation, for the beforehand. That is what we are com­ purpose of continung the service or so plaining about. In good faith a person may much of the service for the carriage of erect a depot costing £50,000, £60,000 or passengers, or goods, or both passengers £100,000, but it is useful only for that and goods provided under and pursuant purpose; it is designed to take heavy to such licenses as the Commissioner vehicles. It may have all sorts of hydraulic determines should justly and reasonably lifts that are necessary for the loading and be continued by such license: unloading of transport vehicles. If a per­ Provided that no such holder shall son loses his licence the building is virtually be or be deemed to be entitled to any valueless. When I say "virtually valueless," license under this Act as of right;" I mean that the value of the building drops considerably. Although £40,000 or £50,000 That only emphasises what I have said may have been spent on a building, he may before, that is, that the previous Govern­ be offered only £25,000 by someone who ment set out to protect the equity of those knows that he has lost his licence and realises who held licences under the Acts that were that he probably would be willing to accept in operation when the 1946 Act was brought the offer rather than lose more heavily on down. The clause under discussion does the deal. It is quite wrong that there is not provide for any such protection for not a greater opportunity of knowing pre­ those holding licences under the State Trans­ cisely what the Commissioner is likely to port Facilities Acts, 1946 to 1959, which do in the circumstances. We are drawing the Bill proposes to repeal. attention to the fact that those already oper­ Mr. DUGGAN (North Toowoomba­ ating road-transport services throughout the Leader of the Opposition) (10.56 p.m.): I State will not know beforehand whether or agree that there is no effective safeguard in not they will succeed. this clause. Under Clause 39 the Com­ The activities of border-hoppers will be missioner may issue a permit to carry accelerated as a result of this measure. 2052 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill

Those people who do not get licences will set that as the value, invite applications at be tempted, under the protection of Section that figure. Having got a number of appli­ 92, to enter the field. That will be harmful cants prepared to purchase the licence to the revenue, to the Government, and to at that figure, it was simply a matter of the legitimate business operator who has a drawing for it, provided the Commissioner licence for the area. There is no guarantee was satisfied that every application was bona to these people. Hon. members will recall fide, that the applicants had the financial that during the trouble with the railways resources to operate the licence, and that they in New South Wales the road hauliers in were reputable men fit to hold a licence. that State came to the aid of the Government On that basis the Commissioner, having set of the day and operated extensively through­ the price and having got applications, can out the State. Their contribution was wide, arrange a draw for the licence. That is the but after the railways indicated that they basis of the clause. It is included princi­ were in a position to deal with all the traffic pally for the purpose of dealing with taxi offering they were cast aside. For those applications. general reasons I feel we should draw atten­ tion to that position in our criticism of Mr. HANLON (Baroona) (11.6 p.m.): The Clause 18. Minister has dealt with the matter of plying for hire under this clause, so I shall deal As I say, it leaves the Commissioner the with it now rather than under Clause 21, right to have only one licence in a particular which was my original intention. area if he thinks only one is necessary. I think the Minister indicated it was a general Recently the secretary of the Taxi Cab policy to have one operator in a particular Owner Drivers' Association, Mr. Morris, said area. I am not quite certain whether I in the Press-I think it was this week-that am accurate in attributing that to him, but the practice of leasing has almost been elimi­ is was the Minister or some other spokesman nated. I doubt the statement, although I for the Government. hope it is correct. I realise that in some We should like to hear the Minister express circumstances the leasing of a taxi-meter himself on this clause, and I shall, if neces­ would be in order. For example, an owner­ sary, supplement my remarks at a later stage. driver of a taxi may suffer a sudden illness and may not be able to carry on with the Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ work. I do not see any reason why he Minister for Transport) (11.2 p.m.): This should not be allowed by the Commissioner clause relates particularly to taxis. Early in to lease the meter while he is not capable the debate the hon. member for Bundaberg of earning his Jiving. expressed the opinion that, at the time the 1946 Act was introduced, he believed that Mr. Herbert: He could put on a driver. taxi-licensing should be under the Transport Department. Some officers did not see eye Mr. HANLON: I suppose he could put on to eye in this direction and this Government, a driver. The hon. member for Kedron by amendment last year, transferred the referred to the case of a widow in similar administration of taxis to the Transport circumstances. I do not see why in such Department. circumstances an owner-driver should not be allowed to lease his meter. But then we hear One of our first experiences was in connec­ allegations about people holding three and tion with the letting of three taxi licences four taxi licences, in some instances not at Southport. We believed that, in view having any connection at all with the taxi of the very high prices that were being paid business. At a time when the Minister agrees by operators who purchased licences some­ that high prices are being paid for taxi what illegally-if it can be put that way, licences, leasing should not be allowed to any because until then there was no real basis great extent. A case came to my notice for the transfer of the goodwill of a taxi some little time ago that illustrates the hard­ licence-the best procedure would be to call ship that can flow from the practice of tenders and test the market to see what leasing meters. This man was approached would happen and what price the Govern­ more or less to take a lease. and the condi­ ment could get for new licences. tions were that his wife was to buy a Holden On the basis of calling tenders for three motor vehicle which she was then to lease licences quite a number of tenders were to the person who held the licence, and I was received, but no two persons tendered the informed that this person actually was a same price. There was an offer of £1,500 dummy for someone else, and that he in turn for one licence, £1,200 for another, £1,150 would lease the meter to the husband to for another. and some tenders were as low drive the vehicle. The payment was £10 a as £250. Consequently it was realised that week, which is £520 a year. A person would such a basis should apply only to where one need an investment of over £5.000 at 10 per licence was to be allocated. Where more cent. to get a similar return. The position than one licence was to be allocated the was that this man had to go on paying £10 only real basis on which you could be fair a week, whether or not the vehicle was on to everyone who desired to enter the taxi the road and whether or not his field would be for the Commissioner to set profit amounted to £10 a week. He had a fixed price at what he believed was a fair the misfortune to be involved in an accident value for a licence in that area and, having and smashed up the vehicle. It was off the State Transport Bill [1 DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 2053 road for some months and eventually, when Clause 19 to 22, both inclusive, as read, the insurance claim was settled, he bought agreed to. another vehicle. In the meantime he had Clause 23-Power of Courts to disqualify been advised that he was obliged to pay £10 convicted persons from holding or obtaining a week. Having paid that amount for some licenses- months he found when he got the vehicle on the road and installed the meter that he only Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ had it in operation for a couple of weeks Minister for Transport) (11.12 p.m.): I have when in the terms of the lease the owner two small amendments to this clause. On of the licence cancelled the agreement. This page 23, at line 18. after the words "Supreme person was left with a vehicle in which it was Court" I wish to insert the words "or District obvious that a meter had been installed previ­ Court". This is a straight-out omission. I ously, and because of that fact it had lost think reference was made to it by the hon. a good deal of its resale value. He had paid member for Baroona this morning. He said £10 a week for several months without get­ that the Bill had only just come before ting any return at all during that period. Parliament, but because of an oversight it was necessary for me to move this amend­ The Commissioner was interested in the ment. I point out to the Committee that case and considered it. He pointed out to me it escaped my notice, the Commissioner's the difficulties in trying to deal with unfair notice, and the Parliamentary draftsman's leasing of that kind. I still think quite an notice. We were following carefully the amount of leasing is being undertaken. Some previous legislation and the words that I people think they can make a go of it and wish to insert were not in the Act previously enter into these arrangements, but unfortu­ because there were no District Courts. nately they can lead to dangerous driving, as I therefore move the following amend­ such persons have to drive their vehicles flat ment:- out all the time to get a fair return. I have "On page 23, line 18, after the word seen some of them in the race traffic dashing 'Court', insert the words- backwards and forwards and taking risks, trying to get extra trips. They are working ' or District Court'." on very fine margins when they are paying Amendment agreed to. out that amount. This illustrates firstly that Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ a person should not be able to make £500 Minister for Transport) (11.14 p.m.): For a year out of a licence by passing it on, and similar reasons, at line 10, on page 24, it secondly it is an illustration that people who is also necessary to insert after the words want a licence, and who would be good "Circuit Court" the words "or District Court". operators, are deprived of one because others hold three or four licences. No matter what I therefore move the following further difficulties arise, I hope the department will amendment:- endeavour to stamp out that practice. "On page 24, line 10, after the word 'Court', insert the words- Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ 'or District Court'." Minister for Transport) (11.11 p.m.): This is one matter on which the hon. member Amendment agreed to. for Baroona and I are in complete agree­ Clause 23, as amended, agreed to. ment. I know of some of the circumstances Clause 24-Effect of disqualification- to which he has referred and I know he has brought to the notice of the Commis­ HoD. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer- sioner cases such as he has outlined tonight. Minister for Transport) (11.15 p.m.): I move I have never believed that anyone should the following amendment:- own or lease out taxi licences and extract "On page 24, line 14, after the word from £8 to £10 a week from the operator. 'Court.' insert the words- We have known of cases where as much as 'or District Court'." £15 a week has been paid. If the business is so lucrative that a person can pay the Amendment agreed to. licensee £15 a week, it is time we looked Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ at the number of taxi licenses in the city. Minister for Transport) (11.16 p.m.): I move However, we find in most cases that the the following further amendment:- lessees who have taken over the licences have been struggling to pay the extortionate "On page 24, line 23, after the word charge imposed by the licensee. The lessees 'Court,' insert the words- have to work up to 16 and 18 hours a day. 'or District Court'." Amendment agreed to. I discussed this matter with the Commis­ sioner some time ago. We decided that when Clause 24, as amended, agreed to. a Bill covering it came before Parliament Clause 25-Passenger service licenses­ we would have it tidied up. I assure the Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (11.17 p.m.): hon. member that we believe that the legis­ Again I rise to draw the attention of the lation now is such that the Commissioner Minister and the Committee to the dis­ will have full power to deal with the cases crimination between passenger services and he has outlined. goods services. If the protection can be Clause 18, as read, agreed to. given to road-passenger services, I cannot 2054 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill understand why similar provision cannot be I draw attention to the fact that the made for the carriage of goods by road. Minister specifically said this morning that Much of the clause repeats the principles there was no such provision in the Bill. contained in Sections 29 and 31 of the 1946 legislation. Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ Minister for Transport) (11.23 p.m.): It is From Subclause (5) it is clear that the true that during the discussion this morning, Government have set out to discriminate when the subject of railways was raised, I against existing licensed services for the did interject to the effect that there was no carriage of goods by road. The Minister provision in this legislation relating to co­ makes provision for granting a passenger­ ordinated services. The hon. member for service licence for a period not being more Bundaberg has very rightly drawn attention than seven years but he has not seen fit to this clause, and there is also another to make the same provision for the carriage clause relating to it. There was no attempt of goods by road. by me to deliberately mislead hon. members. I have a knowledge of the Bill, but I made Clause 25, as read, agreed to. that interjection at the time believing that Clause 26-Co-ordinated rail and road the subject of railways was not the subject services- under discussion. If I misled the hon. mem­ ber in any way-- Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (11.19 p.m.): Mr. Walsb: You did not mislead me. I want to draw particular attention to this clause. This morning when a point of order Mr. CHALK: If I did mislead the hon. was raised as to whether hon. members member for Bundaberg or any other hon. could discuss railway administration, the member by that interjection, I regret it. Minister specifically said that there was no such provision in the Bill. I do not know Clause 26, as read, agreed to. whether it was out of sheer ignorance of Clause 27-Application for license-as the Bill through not having read it as care­ read, agreed to. fully as he should have, or whether it was Clause 28-Commissioner may invite a deliberate attempt to prevent hon. mem­ applications- bers discussing matters affecting the adminis­ tration of the railways. As I see it, this is Mr. W ALSH (Bundaberg) (11.24 p.m.): I a specific clause dealing with railway draw attention to the fact that this clause matters, which, whether connected with provides that the Commissioner may invite co-ordinated contracts for goods or for applications by public advertisement for a passengers, do affect the livelihood of rail­ passenger-service licence to provide and carry way employees. The more people who are on the service for the carriage of passengers carried on the railways to provide passengers by road specified in the advertisement. I for co-ordinated services, the more railway point out again that the Minister has seen employees will have to be continued in fit to lift several sections from the 1946 employment to provide the link between the Act almost entirely, with very little difference road transport facilities and the railways. It in the wording. is significant that the clause says- Mr. Chalk: That is not a crime, is it? "For the purpose of enabling the perform­ ance of any contract for the carriage by road Mr. WALSH: No, no crime at all, but it of passengers entered into or renewed, or does emphasise, as I said earlier, that the proposed to be entered into or renewed, main point in bringing down this Bill was by the Commissioner for Railways, the to include a part in it that would enable the Commissioner for Railways may arrange Minister to get level with Bolton or Cobb & with the Commissioner for the grant or Co. renewal of (and subject to this Act the Mr. Chalk: That is not right. Commissioner may in accordance with such arrangements grant or renew) a licence Mr. WALSH: Well, there is abundant under this Part to the person who is the evidence that the Minister is lifting section other party to such contract or proposed after section out of the 1946 Act. contract for the carriage of passengers." To save me getting to my feet again, I Again there is clear evidence of discrimina­ will just mention that the next five or six tion between the transport of goods and the clauses are almost a replica of the sections transport of passengers. That has an contained in the 1946 Act. important bearing on the matter, because the fact that the Minister is not going to Clause 28, as read, agreed to. provide for any co-ordinated services for the Clauses 29 to 34, both inclusive, as read, carriage of goods must ultimately affect agreed to. employment in the Railway Department. The Clause 35-Fees for licenses- more freight that is brought to the railways, whether by co-ordinated ,services or any Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (11.25 p.m.): In other means, the more continuous employ­ many respects Clause 35 is the same as a ment will be provided for employees of the similar section in the 1946 Act. Again there Railway Department. is evidence that the Minister was prepared State Transport Bill (1 DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 2055

to continue the formula to arrive at the and want to take a number of other people fees to be charged that was provided for fishing. If an accident occurs, we wish to under the old Act. There is a slight difference make certain that those persons have the in the provision covering the method of necessary protection. calculating the rate to be determined for pas­ Mr. WALSH: I hope the public are sengers per road-mile. sufficiently covered. Paragraph (d) of sub-clause 2 reads- Clause 36, as read, agreed to. "An amount calculated at a rate (not exceeding one penny per passenger per road Clauses 37 and 38, as read, agreed to. mile) for each and every passenger carried Clause 39-Classes of permits- on any and every vehicle approved for use in providing and carrying on the Mr. LLOYD (Kedron) (11.31 p.m.): We licensed passenger service." have one query in regard to Class Ill., The old Act provided, " . . . each and every what the Minister calls an innovation in vehicle and number of passengers lawfully road permits. Class Ill. is a permit per­ carried." I take it that in this case, irres­ mitting the owner of a vehicle to carry on such vehicle goods the property of such pective of whether a registered vehicle is owner, being either goods other than carrying in excess of its capacity, the Minister restricted goods or the class of goods speci­ will still collect the fees. That is the way fied in the permit in or on the district or the clause reads to me. road specified in the permit. Clause 35, as read, agreed to. The wording of that clause would not be Clause 36-Approval of vehicles- objectionable but there would be numerous cases where the owner of commodities or Mr. W ALSH (Bundaberg) (11.28 p.m.): goods could have the right to carry them This is the clause I had in mind when debat­ and could, in fact, carry them, with some ing an earlier clause referring to the vehicle advantage in price to the consumer. There that might be licensed by the Commissioner. would be other cases, and it is mainly the It is equivalent to Section 37 of the 1946 Minister's introductory remarks with which Act. I have already drawn the Minister's we are concerned at the moment. He said- attention to the fact that there is a provision "Class III. is an innovation in that it for the Commissioner to license certain provides for the owners of vehicles to vehicles as long as they comply with the carry their own goods in or on the road requirements of certain Acts. There is an specified in the permit. Under this per­ additional paragraph in this clause which mit it will be legal for business houses, provides, amongst other conditions, that a for an industry or for primary producers vehicle shall not be approved unless "it is to carry their own goods in their own appropriately insured under and in accord­ vehicles subject to the payment of the fee ance with 'The Motor Vehicles Insurance prescribed.'' Acts, 1936 to 1959.'" All I was asking I realise that that must be read in conjunc­ was why that provision was not in the tion with Clause 37, which states that a earlier clause. person shall not be entitled to apply for or obtain a permit under this part as of right. Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ In other words, in all probability there Minister for Transport) (11.29 p.m.): I think would be a realisation by the Commissioner the hon. member is entitled to an explana~ that primary producers and people in similar tion. The clause to which he referred pre­ occupations should have these permits viously dealt particularly with taxis. The extended to them, but with large business insurance to which he has made reference is organisations I think it would be found part of the cover in taxi registrations. The' that if they carry their own goods and are extra wording in Clause 36 has been included subject to a permit fee no great advantage to ensure that if a licence is granted to some­ would be enjoyed by the consuming public. body who wants to carry passengers while This clause would be used by many of them he goes on a fishing trip, or something like to secure for themselves any advantages of that, his passengers have the necessary insur­ the permit and any additional profit would ance safeguard. go straight back to them. They would then be in what might be termed unfair compe­ Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (11.30 p.m.): I tition with existing operators carrying on do not want to argue the matter, but I transport firms. These firms could carry thought that under the insurance law it the goods capably and any saving in costs, was necessary for every vehicle to be I feel, would reach the consumer. insured. Therefore, if anyone comes under the previous clause in which it says that We have the example given by the hon. the Commissioner shall have power to issue, member for Brisbane today of Vesteys in renew or transfer a licence, I should imagine Rockhampton embarking on the purchase of that they should be covered because the law a fleet of refrigerated road transports and provides that every vehicle-- carrying their own meat on a road which, I understand, is half paid for by them. Mr. Chalk: That is the case with taxis, There would not be any advantage to any­ but we have found that persons might one other than the company itself. There come along with another type of vehicle could be many similar examples of business J960-3T 2056 S fate Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill houses or large industries taking advantage on transport matters, he has shown a marked of this provision for their own benefit and reluctance to do so. At least he indicated not to the advantage of the consuming in his introductory speech that there will public. As the clause stands, the Commis­ be a number of restricted goods. If there are sioner will have to give much consideration to be restricted goods, I should think that to the people, industries or business houses everyone would have an opportunity, pro­ to which permits can be issued. This clause vided he was prepared to pay the permit has to be read in conjunction with Clause fee, to carry such goods as he thought 37. Clause 39 states that a Class Ill. per­ were desirable or necessary. There is to mit may be issued by the Commissioner to be a wide discretionary power. The Minister certain individuals or business houses if in pointed out in his introductory speech that his opinion a permit is warranted. Such this matter would be examined very closely persons are not issued with a permit as a by the Commissioner and that there may be matter of right. a variation in the rates for different districts. Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ In view of all the things that have been said Minister for Transport) (11.36 p.m.): about the tie-up between transport charges I recognise the point raised by the and rail freights, I point out that at least hon. member. Class Ill permits are issued there was a common, uniform policy. Under when the goods are the property of the this clause we will get more variability on owner. He may not carry restricted goods, the part of the Commissioner and his but may carry only the class of goods delegated officers. It will vary from place specified in the permit. Each permit will to place, town to town, and commodity to specify the district to which he may go or commodity. What may be regarded as a the route over which he may travel, as well restricted commodity for conveyance to Too­ as the goods he can carry. The Commis­ woomba may not be regarded as a restricted sioner will have due regard to the circum­ commodity for conveyance to Gympie. I stances of each case before issuing a permit. feel I should draw attention to this point I know a certain brickworks wants to send because the list would be very extensive, bricks to certain areas. It is undesirable and if the Minister or the Commissioner that the bricks be handled three or four found that they had got themselves into a times. Under the Act there was a limitation bit of a mess naturally they could increase on the milage that bricks could be carried. the number of restricted products. The We have tried to adhere to that provision, people who have been told they have an but we cannot make fish of one manu­ open opportunity to send wool or livestock facturer and flesh of another. Class Ill per­ by road transport, as long as they pay the mits can be issued in certain circumstances, permit fee, may be sadly disappointed, and the Commissioner will have due regard unless there is discrimination. Why should to the circumstances. the Minister say on the one hand that live­ stock are a restricted commodity if, on the Clause 39, as read, agreed to. other hand, he tells primary producers in Clause 40-Restricted goods- the west that they will have a free and unfettered right to move any goods if they Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba West­ pay the fee. Leader of the Opposition) (11.37 p.m.): This He said the railways could get wool by clause cuts across much of the propa­ arranging trucks so that they would be able ganda of the Minister and Government to get full trainloads, and that if they were spokesmen generally about the open-road able to get the wool they would not come transport policy. A close examination of the back empty. He said that truck operators Bill reveals that the free and unfettered take a load out and come back with a load, competition of which they speak will not that if they could not get a back-loading they be quite as free and unfettered as the pro­ would not be prepared to go out and come tagonists of the Bill have made out. The back empty. Minister has shown a disinclination to indi­ cate his policy on transport matters. We I should like the Minister to indicate have invited him during the debate on whether there will be a very extensive several earlier clauses to indicate the general broadening of these items, and how it will policy to be followed. Yet in his introductory affect the people traditionally carrying these speech he had no hesitation in saying in products. They have been able to carry regard to clause 40- cement, timber and brewery products. "It is expected for the present that these Mr. Chalk: Not in all places. goods will include such items as coal, cane and raw sugar, livestock over a certain Mr. DUGGAN: No, in certain places. distance, timber in certain areas, minerals, I do not like this differential application. certain grain, certain oil products, certain I realise that on occasions there are some brewery products, and, in some cases, exceotional circumstances, such as in far cement." western towns far from the railhead. We On the one hand we have the Minister have to use common sense. The fact that indicating quite freely what the restricted the Commissioner has full and complete goods shall be, yet on the other hand, when authority under the Bill to determine at any we have invited him to indicate his policy time the category of goods to be carried State Transport Bill (1 DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 2057 will make it very difficult for road hauliers Mr. CHALK: The Railway Department with permits to know where they stand. There has a number of tankers operating and it is no co-ordination or stability of policy. It has certain commitments with some petrol could fluctuate from day to day and from companies. Those companies, too, desire to place to place. have a basis laid down where. for the sake of argument, they have a terminal and they This will be one of the greatest deterrents will use rail transport because it suits their to people investing in road transport. The particular requirements. The Commissioner hon. member for Toowoomba East will know will have to give serious consideration to the that for some goods, such as bulk oil, special haulage of petrol because the Bill provides services are provided, and for quite a few for a freer road transport policy than has commodities there are refrigerated trucks that existed in the oast. It will not be confined are very expensive. Again, certain depots to one part of the State but will have to are provided. Smallgoods and many other be considered for all parts. I am not in perishable commodities have been exempted, a position to indicate that a specific set of and the number of specialised vehicles is circumstances will apply to a particular area: increasing. An American firm, Freulof that is the prerogative of the Commissioner. Trailers, one of the greatest trailer organisa­ tions in the world, is extending its operations Clause 40, as read, agreed to. to this country and, with a Sydney firm, is Clauses 41 and 42, as read, agreed to. specialising in equipment for road transport. Clause 43-Cancellation and suspension It wants to know where it will stand when of permits- it comes here. It could happen that a person, in good faith, can enter into an agreement Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (11.48 p.m.): to purchase these vehicles, but he has no Earlier we had some debate on the Commis­ guarantee that the Commissioner may not sioner's power and on whether it involved a decide a month or two after the purchase principle of repudiation. If we accept the that the commodity may no longer be carried advice and interpretation of the law given by road. by learned counsel, the hon. member for Mt. Gravatt, I do not know why the Parlia­ Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ mentary Draftsman has gone to all the trouble Minister for Transport (11.44 p.m.): As the of putting in the powers to revoke a licence Leader of the Opposition has mentioned, and to cancel a licence and why they should during the introductory stage of the Bill I be under different headings. If the power to listed certain goods that I believed would revoke the terms and conditions of any possibly be considered as restricted goods. licence is not repudiation, I do not see why I agree with his remark a few moments ago the clause should be worded as it is, and I that a common-sense policy must be applied merely draw the attention of the hon. mem­ to this provision. I believe that in drawing ber for Mt. Gravatt to it. up the legislation as we have, and by giving Clause 43, as read, agreed to. the Commissioner certain rights under that legislation, a common-sense approach will be Clause 44-Permit fees- the outcome. We have clearly indicated that Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba West­ we are endeavouring to open up the roads Leader of the Opposition) (11.49 p.m.): This and introduce a freer basis of road transport. clause calls for comment because for the On the other hand, we have pointed out that first time we have a system of determining certain commodities will be restricted goods, the amount of fees payable for the convey­ and I feel sure that the Commissioner will ance of passengers and for goods, and I carry out what the Leader of the Opposition think it will lead to a great deal of confusion, has just called a common-sense policy. red tape, and added clerical work in the department. Again the Minister has indicated Mr. BURROWS (Port Curtis) (11.46 p.m.): that he proposes to confer upon the Cor~­ Will the Minister say definitely whether missioner very wide powers to use h1s petrol will be specifically restricted to the discretion in the determination of fees. railways, say from here to Toowomba, or He mentioned in his introductory remarks from Gladstone to Biloela, where there is that no-one could put 12 tons of cotton on an existing rail service? a 12-ton truck and that, consequently, under the provisions of the Bill, the Commissioner Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ would be given power to impose greatly Minister for Transport) (11.47 p.m.): If the reduced fees. He went on to say that the hon. member had been in the Chamber charue for a header that took up all the earlier in the evening he would have heard spac~ on a 12-ton truck would similarly be me say, in reply to a question along very reckoned on a basis other than the weight similar lines, that the Commissioner will be of the header or the actual cubic space it the one to decide the basis for certain commo­ occupied. There must be some general dities. I know the difficulty tll_at the hon. method of determination. It has previously member is probably referring to in the haul­ been determined on the railway classifica­ age of petrol in a particular area in his tions, and the rate is fairly high on the high­ value commodities such as wool, gold, and locality. products of that type, but on minerals, Mr. Burrows: I just want to know. manure, and so on, the value of which is 2058 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill not very high, the impost is fairly low. In Commissioner has to make the determina­ the case of shipping, it is always based on tions in relation to the amount of fees that 40 cubic feet to· the ton. It seems to me that will apply to goods being carried now. the variable formula that the Commissioner Road transport fees have been tied to rail and his officers will be obliged to give effect freights but we have known for a long time to will be very difficult to follow, and in that the licensees have not adhered to them. many cases it will be unfair. On the Darling We know that it has been the responsibility Downs, for example, a wide range of of the department to check and accept the agricultural equipment is used. Where they manifests of licensees. That has involved have to make a decision on the varying a tremendous amount of work within the types of equipment and make an arbitrary department. I have inspected the system in decision in each case, it will lead to New South Wales, on which portion of the injustice, unfair decisions, and confusion. Bill has been patterned. The Commissioner Where the charge is going to be made on in Queensland will do the same as the officer the basis of the load capacity of the vehicle in charge of motor transport does in New expressed in tons. what will the position be South Wales. He will issue a list setting where a person takes a load of goods 8 tons out the basis on which the fees are arrived in weight and leaves 2 tons at Gatton, 2 tons at. I do not think it will be any more at Laidley, 2 tons at Rosewood, and 2 tons difficult to administer than in the past, and at some other place? Is he going to be in the long run the public will benefit. charged on the 8-ton capacity of the vehicle Clause 44, as read, agreed to. for the full distance when many of the goods will be discharged at intermediate Clause 45-Application of Part- points? That sort of thing is going to be Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba West­ fairly difficult to determine, because they Leader of the Opposition) (11.57 p.m.): I will have to take into account the capacity move the following amendment:- of the vehicle and the number of miles it will travel. There will be sections of loads, "On page 40, line 1, after the word and in those sections there will be various 'periodicals,' insert the words- types of commodities for which the Com­ 'produced in Queensland'." missioner may elect to have a differential Section 24, Subsection 17, of the 1946 rate. This will add tremendously to the State Transport Facilities Act reads- paperwork involved in determining these permits. In addition, I do not think anyone "Any vehicle carrying newspapers for knows precisely where he stands if arbitrary delivery unless the Commissioner has determinations are made based on the fact determined that suitable train services are that the Minister might think that there available for such delivery." should not be a full charge for a 12-ton Clause 45 (17) of the Bill reads- header or a tractor of a certain capacity. It "Any vehicle carrying newspapers or will be difficult for anyone in Brisbane to periodicals for distribution." know what the correct weight is. Under the existing legislation authorisation The principle proposed in this clause is is given to vehicles carrying newspapers for not a good one. I think it would be better delivery. The substitution of the word to tie it to a percentage of the total freight "distribution" for "delivery" is evidently charge. That would be a simple method, intended to widen the applicability of the because the Minister no longer believes in clause. alikening the charge with rail freights. In any case, many branch lines will be closed and Whereas the Commissioner has power they will have no opportunity of basing the under existing legislation to make authorisa­ rate on railway charges in those areas. Where tion contingent on whether suitable train there is no railway operating, it seems that services for delivery are available, such the operator who is successful in obtaining power is taken away in the Bill. the right to serve a certain area will be able Additionally, where the authorisation was to charge what he likes. restricted to newspapers, it is now made to I regret that this complicated formula cover "periodicals,'' this being doubtless a has been introduced. I think it will be valuable concession to the southern-owned responsible for a great deal of confusion and directed monopoly Press, which distri­ and a great measure of unfairness to those butes large quantities of southern-produced who will be covered by its provisions. periodicals in Queensland. That is why we are asking for an amendment of the clause. Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ We are prepared to give this measure of Minister for Transport) (11.55 p.m.): The protection- to periodicals produced in Leader of the Opposition has drawn Queensland. There may be some reason­ attention to the basis on which fees will be able justification to treat newspapers as a arrived at. He talked a lot about arbitrary perishable commodity, because there is determination. Having administered the nothing staler than yesterday's news. We previous Act for some considerable time he become so accustomed to frequent editions would know that many of the problems to being turned out that unless we get the very which he referred arose under that Act, on latest edition we feel somewhat disappointed. almost every day of the week, and possibly Sometimes I am sorry that there are so on several occasions during each day. The many editions because when you go to look State Transport Bill (1 DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 2059 at some statement to which your attention The CHAffiMAN: Order! We are deal­ has been directed very often you cannot find ing only with the amendment. it because it has probably been dropped from a later edition. Mr. HANLON (Baroona) (12.3 a.m.): I support the amendment by the Leader of I very much regretted that the Minister the Opposition. There was a suggestion got rather heated earlier when he referred earlier in the debate that this clause might to the fact that this morning I had be connected with a certain amount of mentioned a question that the hon. member horse-trading between the Minister and for Port Curtis directed to him on whether Queensland Newspapers Pty. Ltd. That Queensland Newspapers Pty. Ltd., publishers would appear to be so judging by the cover­ of "The Courier-Mail," and one of the major age given to the introductory stages of this distributors of magazines in Queensland, Bill and the charges by the Leader of the had, on behalf of its southern principals, Opposition on the allegations of Mr. Bolton. been carrying and distributing by road large If the Labour Government had been in quantities of southern magazines in contra­ office and such charges had been made by vention of the State Transport Facilities Act. the Premier as Leader of the Opposition, The Minister would have got a greater we would have had, as we have in the measure of commendation from this side of past, a completely different attitude by "The the Chamber had he been frank enough to Courier-Mail" and the "Telegraph." I can say that he was not aware that there had imagine the two-column editorials that would been any contravention of the Act, or that have appeared on the front page under the if there had been some contravention there heading, "Mr. Duggan, what are you doing was some difficulty on the part of the about this?" and, "Five Days Elapse and no Solicitor-General in deciding whether a action by the Government." That is the prosecution would lie because of some doubt sort of article that appeared in newspapers about the meaning of the word "news­ during the days of the Labour Government. papers." If he had done that we would have said that he was tackling the problem The charges were reported in the news­ in a conscientious manner and we would go papers fully and reasonably, but editorially along with him. However, he said "No" very little notice was taken of them. As to the question asked by the hon. member the Leader of the Opposition suggested, the for Port Curtis, and then he said there was position may be that the Government have some doubt as to whether a prosecution seen fit to extend to them the right to carry could be sheeted home because the Solicitor­ these periodicals and therefore they feel General was doubtful about the meaning they should not criticise the Government of the word "newspaper." Would it not too much. I hope that is not the reason have been better if we were only dealing for their lack of interest. with that problem to have defined the word Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ "newspaper." The Minister said there was Minister for Transport) (12.6 a.m.): I am sorry no definition in the old Act. It should be the Leader of the Opposition and the hon. an easy thing for the Parliamentary Drafts­ member for Baroona have seen fit at this early man to define what a newspaper is. hour of the morning to refer to the possi­ I feel this is somewhat of a pay-off for bility of horse-trading with "The Courier­ these people, because the morning after the Mail" and the "Telegraph." The legislation Bill was introduced in the Chamber "The was compiled some time ago. The editorial Courier-Mail" editorial read- referred to would probably be written by the editor-in-chief or someone associated with "Mr. Chalk made a good case for a each newspaper who, having read the Bill, radical and bold new transport policy no longer shackled to the railways. Yet even felt it was a step in the right direction. I on the Government side of the House should not have thought that either hon. there must be some misgivings as to the member would have made such an accusa­ effect it may have on railway earnings tion. and consequently on the State's finances." The Leader of the Opposition referred to The only shackles that have been removed my answer to the question by the hon. were those applying to Queensland News­ member for Port Curtis. He said that I papers Pty. Ltd. The Minister made it quite should have laid bare the whole of the circum­ clear that the Commissioner was told to stances. Let us be clear as to the question keep his nose out of deliveries by Queens­ asked, which was whether the carriage of land Newspapers Pty. Ltd. I think the southern magazines was being done in contra­ Minister knows, by his close association with vention of the State Transport Facilities Act. many members of Country Press, that they I said "No," and I stand by my answer. are not terribly happy at the inroads made Legal advice was to the effect that it was by the metropolitan Press into country areas not in contravention of the Act. As I realised far removed from Brisbane. We are pro­ that the legal advice could be challenged I testing against this clause except so far as made sure that the Bill covered completely it relates to Queensland-produced periodicals. the carriage of periodicals. Mr. BURROWS (Port Curtis) (12.3 a.m.): Mr. Hanlon: In other words, the periodicals I object to Subclause 8 of this clause. had been carried before, but not legally? 2060 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill

Mr. CHALK: My advice was that the "(3) Any vehicle carrying any passenger carriage of southern magazines was not in without hire or reward or any considera­ contravention of the Act. tion whatever for a purpose which the Mr. Hanion: They had been doing it? Commissioner has determined is a charit­ able purpose; Mr. CHALK: I do not know. The hon. (4) Any vehicle carrying any passenger member for Port Curtis may know. without hire or reward or any considera­ Mr. Hanlon: Why did you seek legal tion whatever for a purpose which the opinion? Commissioner has determined is a public purpose or a purpose of a like nature: lVIr. CHALK: Because of a certain matter Provided that the carriage of members of that came to my notice. I do not want to a sporting body or of persons connected name the person who reported it. I do not therewith shall not be determined to be know whether or not it was true, but a report a public purpose or a purpose of a like was received and, before attempting to police nature;" the provision, the Commissioner had to ascer­ In effect, this clause provides what might be tain the legal position. regarded as a type of exemption. While it The Leader of the Opposition wants to may be argued that these things were con­ amend the clause by inserting the words tained in the 1946 Act, there has been a "produced in Queensland." No doubt he has considerable growth in motor transport since a reason for moving the amendment, but I am then. I think the Minister will agree that certain he knows that it would cut across if there was a strict interpretation of this. Section 92 of the Commonwealth Constitu­ even though school children may be mem­ tion. The magazines could be brought up bers of a sporting team, if they are con­ from the South, delivered in Brisbane and veyed any distance over the standard distance picked up by another vehicle. The circum­ they will be subject to the provisions of this stances would be similar to the case that clause. Whatever exemption the Minister occurred in Tasmania. A consignment of may like to provide in the clause as a whole, fruit was sent by one person in Tasmania to surely to goodness some consideration should another, and picked up by vehicles. Because be given to teams of school children that there was no change of ownership up to may be transported. It is specifically laid that stage it was regarded as an interstate down that the carriage of members of a transaction. In the Bill we have not endeav­ sporting body or persons connected there­ oured to discriminate between goods pro­ with shall not be a public purpose or a duced in Queensland and goods produced in purpose of like nature. The Premier will any other part of Australia. For that reason, remember that in 1946 life-savers were speci­ I do not propose to start now by accepting fically exempted so that a permit would not an amendment covering periodicals. be required to transport them or their equip­ ment to beach resorts. Bill Gollon, now in Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (12.11 a.m.): a hotel at Coolangatta, used to transport I did not intend to speak on this clause them without charge every week-end and until the Minister gave his interpretation of over the holidays. If the Minister cannot the effect of the amendment. If that is his do anything about it, he might suggest to attitude, why would he want to put any­ the Commissioner that he be sympathetic. thing in the Bill dealing with transport of these things. I cannot see that the news­ Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ paper industry will be protected by any Tas­ Minister for Transport) (12.16 a.m.): I am manian case. After all, has it not been sure the hon. member must know that this laid down that if there is a second trans­ matter is always viewed liberally, and the action after the goods leave the place of practice is not being altered. Often school origin it then comes within the scope of children are conveyed to various parts of State legislation? Does the Minister mean the State for sporting or picnic purposes. that if a vehicle comes in from New South It is not complete exemption, but the Wales and deposits periodicals in Brisbane Commissioner exercises his discretion. at, say, Gordon & Gotch, and then picks Mr. Gaven: Age pensioners, too. them up there, that is regarded as an inter­ state transaction? They are carrying for Mr. CHALK: Yes, it happens once a another firm. The Minister should giv~ more week with age pensioners. The same lenient consideration to the amendment before he treatment will be continued under the Bill. rejects it. Mr. BURROWS (Port Curtis) (12.17 Amendment (Mr. Duggan) negatived. a.m.): I move the following amendment- Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (12.13 a.m.): "On page 39, lines 7 and 8, omit the I wish to draw attention to Subclause (6) words- of this clause, the provisions of which were 'being tools designed for use by contained in subsections (3) and (4) of Section hand'." 24 of the 1946 Act. No doubt the Minister knows that is so, and if the members of the The CHAIRMAN: Order! I must point Committee look it up they will find that sub­ out to the hon. member that he may speak cl::mse (6) is a combination of those two on that subject because he is allowed to subsections of the 1946 Act. They say- speak on the clause as a whole, but I rule State Transport Bill [1 DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 2061 that, as the Committee has already agreed or more than £200; for a third or subse­ that the words proposed to be omitted stand quent offence, not less than £200 or more part of the clause, I cannot accept an amend­ than £500. It appears to me that these ment for him on Subclause (8). penalties could have very harmful conse­ quences for people who are making finan~e l\1r. BURROWS: Very well, Mr. Taylor, available for the purchase of trucks. It Will but I think the point is important enough be quite beyond the capacity of the person for me to finish what I was saying. A man committing the offence to meet them. We may not have his truck fully loaded but shall be dealing with the question of seizure still have to pay 3d. a ton-mile on its full in a few minutes, but I wish to emphasise capacity. If he is a timber-getter, for that the penalties are very heavy. The example, simply because his tools of trade Minister may argue that people have been include a power saw he has to pay 3d. a able to break the law with impunity up ton-mile on the full capacity of his lorry till now and that there is a case for the when moving from one job to another. The imposition of the savage penalties that the significance of that should be apparent to Bill provides. I am not quarrelling with an every man with practical experience. increase in penalties, but I certainly think A power saw is a necessity, not a luxury, that the proposed penalties are very heavy. and we are only penalising a man for effi­ In view of the other clauses that more or ciency if we tax him because he has a less prove a person's guilt when he may power saw. I am sure that every practical not have wilfully committed an offence, the man on the Government beaches will agree penalties seem to be too severe. As I shall that it is just as necessary today as a cross­ show later, a person may be quite innocent cut saw was in fencing 20 or 30 years ago. of any intent to defraud or to defeat the The provision is ill advised. In western provisions of the Bill. areas people might have to travel 200 or 300 miles from one job to the next, and Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ because they have a power saw or a post­ Minister for Transport) (12.25 a.m.): The hole borer in their equipment, they will be Leader of the Opposition made reference to called upon to pay 3d. a ton-mile on the what he termed "very savage penalties" and full capacity of the vehicle. referred to people who, perhaps, unknow­ ingly broke the law. The penalty for the Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ first offence does not lay down a minimum, Minister for Transport) (12.22 a.m.): The but a maximum. If a person finds himself matter raised by the hon. member for Port in the position outlined by the Leader of Curtis has caused the Commissioner some the Opposition he should explain the circum­ concern in recent weeks. Action was taken stances to the magistrate before whom he against an operator in North Queensland appears. If he can show that what he did was for using a tractor under certain circum­ done in ignorance, the magistrate will take stances. Believe it or not, the magistrate who heard the case found that a tractor, the view that the hon. member seeks to because it was driven by a person, was a have included in the clause. Even if the tool designed for use by hand. I have first offence is committed in ignorance, I do authorised the Commissioner for Transport not think the penalty for a second offence to appeal against that decision, because I is too severe. We know that penalties have have never heard anything so silly. not been sufficiently severe in the past to deter certain operators from breaking the I will note the point raised by the hon. law. They have regarded the penalties under member, and if the circumstances are as the previous Act as a sort of licence fee. outlined I am sure the Commissioner will How often have we heard it said, "We have also take note of it. I referred earlier in got through on half a dozen occasions. We this debate, and also at the introductory stage, to a header being carried on a goods have been caught for 50 'quid' this time, truck and taking up the full space but not but we are still showing a profit."? the full load capacity, and I said that sympa­ Clause 49, as read, agreed to. thetic consideration would be given in that Clauses 50 to 52, both inclusive, as read, case. The same can be said of the matter agreed to. raised by the hon. member. Clause 53-Execution against vehicle­ Clause 45, as read, agreed to. Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba West­ Clauses 46 to 48, both inclusive, as read, Leader of the Opposition) (12.28 a.m.): I agreed to. think it will be agreed that this clause intro­ Clause 49-0ffence with respect to duces a completely new principle for the carriage of goods- recovery of penalties. In my opinion it Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba West­ will validate highway robbery by the Com­ Leader of the Opposition) (12.24 a.m.): I missioner for Transport and his servants. The shall not take up much time in discussing Minister said he was aware of the fact that this clause, because I think my comments many members of Parliament had received could be made more appropriately under telegrams of protest from motor dealers Clause 53. Here we have an illustration of throughout the State, and he went on to the very heavy penalties that are imposed: say that it was rather significant that the For a first offence, not more than £100; phraseology of those messages of protest for a second offence, not less than £100 was identical. He implied that they had all 2062 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill emanated from one source. That might well and find that any person who is compelled be the case. I presume it came from the by economic circumstances to travel from Automotive Chamber of Commerce, an one place to another in search of employ­ organisation formed specifically to protect ment is not registered as unemployed. Even its members. Would the Minister feel there if he happens to be in a particular centre on would be something wrong if a trade union a Friday and applies for relief, he is not that had been negotiating for marginal listed as unemployed. The Minister for increases decided, because of the rejection of Labour and Industry tries to cover up these its claim, to send identical advice to all things. Government members are not branches in Queensland? The Automotive genuinely concerned about the position. Chamber of Commerce is headed by a Mr. Morris: Don't be silly. What do you person with many years' experience and a mean when you say we are trying to cover wide knowledge of the automotive industry, and no doubt it took notice of his recom­ up? mendation that some action should be taken. Mr. DUGGAN: Frequently we have heard If different protests had been received the Minister quote figures as to the number the Minister probably would have said that of unemployed. Itinerants who are travelling there was no unanimity in them. However, from one place to another are not shown on when there is unanimity the objections are the lists as unemployed. brushed aside on the basis that they spring Mr. Morris: And many people are shown from one and the same source. on the lists who are in fact not unemployed. This provision under which vehicles are to be seized has caused a great deal of per­ Mr. DUGGAN: I made a personal check turbation in financial circles. The Aus­ of the position, and I am not referring now tralian Guarantee Corporation has seen fit to Toowoomba. I went to certain labour to send out a circular on the matter. I rang offices only the other day, and the lists did one of its officials this afternoon. He could not contain the names of a number of people not tell me the exact position offhand but he who had applied for relief. informed me that the amount owing to it Important as the subject of unemployment on trucks at the present time was somewhere is, it is more important at this stage to con­ in the vicinity of £2,000,000. An organisation sider the retention in this Bill of the very with commitments of that kind is not likely severe and unjustifiable principle of the clause to finance motor vehicles when it has grave under discussion. The Minister said earlier fears of the implications of this Bill. Many that he had some views to express on the of these drivers commit all sorts of breaches matter. I should like to hear them, and in unbeknown to their employer. In any case; the time still available to me to comment seizure is quite wrong. The fact that it has on them. We view the matter very seriously. forced responsible members of the business Certain people are very concerned about the eommunity to protest proves that it is. It is financial position that will be brought about a far-reaching provision and should not be by the Bill. The Minister may be able to passed by the Committee unless stronger give an assurance, but I do not think an reasons than have been advanced so far can assurance would be sufficient. \Ve know that be provided by the Minister. some of his assurances have not been accepted I mentioned the Australian Guarantee Cor­ in the Chamber. In any case these people poration because it is one of the largest hire­ are not very interested in the statement of a purchase organisations in the Commonwealth. Minister of the Crown. Those who lend It has had very long experience and would money are interested only in what the Bill not lightly undertake a campaign of this says and the powers given to certain people kind unless it was seriously perturbed. under it. They realise it would be useless to go to court and say that the Minister for This Bill, together with the credit restric­ Transport said so-and-so. They are interested tions imposed by the Federal Government, only in the provisions of the legislation, the will have a concertina effect. If these people penalties and the legal redress available to do not advance money for hire purchase what them. The Minister will have to do more will be the position of a great number of than give us an assurance. He will have to second-hand car dealers in this State? I convince us that Clause 53 has not the sig­ was informed the other day that irrespective nificance we think it has. I invite the of this Bill the credit restrictions would force Minister to honour his undertaking to deal 200 second-hand car dealers in Queensland with the matter so that we will have an out of business by next June. opportunity of rejoining the debate if neces­ Mr. Chalk: Do you think that would be sary. a great loss? Mr. HANLON (Baroona) (12.38 a.m.): It Mr. DUGGAN: The Government would seems remarkable that a clause such as this not care. Sixty or 80 people were retrenched should be introduced by a Minister who by the Ford Co. the other day. These things belongs to the Liberal Party and allegedly have a cumulative effect. The Minister for espouses its principles and policy. The clause Labour and Industry quoted figures to show provides for the confiscation of property that a reduction in the incidence of unemploy­ is not the sole and absolute property of the ment. I have inquired from labour bureaus offender. We hear a great deal about the State Transport Bill [1 DECEMBER] Stare Transport Bill 2063

dreadful things that will happen if the Labour Government very shrewdly wrote it Socialists get power and how they will con­ into the regulations in such a way that the fiscate and nationalise without paying any public did not know anything about it, but compensation, something that has never been the power was there to be exercised, if neces­ suggested by the Australian Labour Party. sary. Because we believe in government by legislation and not by regulation, we have Mr. Hooper interjected. transferred it from the regulations into the Mr. HANLON: This is 1960, and the hon. Bill. We have drawn public attention to it. member is voting for a clause that allows We have not put it craftily in tl).e regulations the confiscation of assets of someone who has as the former Government did. merely put up finance for them. The clause Mr. Walsh: You are not game to read the contains the following passage:- regulation. "So much of such proceeds as exceeds the amount ordered to be levied and the Mr. CHALK: I will read it. It is all there, costs and charges of ·the execution shall and the hon. member knows it as well as be deemed to have come into the custody f do. of the clerk of petty sessions in connection It is a clear, hard fact that from 1946 with the proceedings in respect of the to 1954 the former Government had very offence." few troubles with illicit operations by border­ Mr. Chalk: Don't walk in again. hoppers pursuing their trade under Section 92. It is true that, up to 1954, very little Mr. HANLON: I am not walking in, I difficulty was experienced in policing the am asking the Minister what it implies. State Transport Facilities Act, but when the A Govemment Member: You know what Hughes and Vale case came before the it implies. Privy Council and the decision was made known to the public there was an immediate Mr. HANLON: I do not pretend to know growth of border-hopping. Up to 1954, the what it implies. department had to contend with relatively Mr. Chalk: And you criticise it without few truck-owners who carried goods without finding out! first obtaining a permit so that very few Mr. HANLON: The Minister is getting people were breaking the law in that respect. very churlish. What is our function as the Between the time of the Privy Council Opposition? Is it to sit here and say, "As decision in 1954 and the time when this long as Gordon says so it is all right"? Government took office in August, 1957, That is what they are all doing on the border-hopping developed to alarming pro­ Government side. They do not believe in portions and the Government lost no time confiscating goods without compensation, but in taking up t,Pe challenge and using all they sit back here and go to the Caucus lawful means within their power to elimin­ meeting and sleep, and then put up their ate the mischief caused to the State's econ­ hand to vote and say, "As long as Gordon omy and Crown revenues. The Government says so it is all right." We do not do that. substantially increased the activities of polic­ \Vhen we do not understand something, we ing on the roads and joined forces with other want to know what it means. When the State Governments in fighting actions in the Minister explains it, we will consider the High Court of Australia. matter. We have been told by many hon. Investigations and experience showed members-and we have read in the Press­ clearly that illegal operators were very soundly that the people who provide finance for these advised and that they quickly availed them­ vehicles are so concerned that they are knock­ selves of many and varied tricks and devices ing people back for finance. We will be not only to defeat the State Transport Facili­ interested to hear what the Minister has to ties Act but also to escape the consequences say. of their illegal operations. Individual opera­ Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ tors, when convicted and heavily fined, Minister for Transport) (12.41 a.m.): I realised that non-payment of their fines and realised because of the broad interest that permit fees would eventually lead to imprison­ was shown by certain financial companies in ment so, to defeat that possibility and to this clause, and the number of telegrams escape the payment of penalties and their that have reached me, that it would probably just dues to the Crown, they turned their draw the most debate. At the outset I must businesses into limited liability companies say that its provisions are not entirely new; and registered them as such wijh the proper they have not been suddenly written into authority. As a result, when prosecutions the legislation. This Government were pre­ were launched and convictions obtained, the pared to include this provision in the Bill fines were imposed on the company. Such so that the people of Queensland will know fines are recoverable only by execution the position in future. Similar legislation against the assets of the company. Most of appeared in 1946. The hon. member for the companies were found to have few assets, Bundaberg has not come into the debate on or none at all. The vehicles they used were this clause as yet, but he will probably speak all under hire-purchase agreement and did later. He has very cunningly allowed the not belong to them. When further pressure Leader of the Opposition and the hon. mem­ was put on those who had been convicted ber for Baroona to speak. The former and they were made bankrupt or were faced 2064 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill

with bankruptcy or liquidation, the indivi­ substantial amounts before they could operate duals comprising the limited liability company effectively. There is strong support for the simply formed a new company overnight and statement that these truck-selling organisations carried on with the same vehicles. Other adopt certain other practices, such as turning avenues of escape included changing the back speedometers. All these statements are vehicle ownership, which often happened not a figment of my own imagination but overnight, and plates were changed to mislead have been compiled from stark reality, from investigating officers. information that is recorded in the office of The unhappy position does not rest there, the Transport Commission. and I want to make it clear that what I am The section authorising the seizing of about to say does not refer to reputable vehicles is not an imposition on the general business people engaged in the sale of new community or upon the honest operator. It and second-hand trucks but only to those is not the only means set out in the Bill for who do not value their business reputation the recovery of penalties inflicted on law­ and who engage in the unhealthy business breakers. There are several others. It is an practices I am about to outline. I base my statements on information supplied to me imposition on law-breakers and all who are from practical experience obtained at inter­ associated with them, and it is a fair and views that many persons who have purchased reasonable method of further protecting the trucks have had with highly responsible Crown revenue. This action has been forced officers of my department-and they have upon the Government, and in the present called on those officers in relation to their situation any Government worthy of its name inability to pay the charges due by them would be obliged to take similar action. to the department. Many misguided citizens, Let us examine what has happened since following the progress of the devices and the Bill has been distributed. Fourteen days schemes to defeat the State laws, and have elapsed since it was read a first time, foolishly thinking that entry into this branch and, as I said this morning, I have received of the transport industry would reward them many letters, particularly from wester~ p~ople, with the mythical "pot of gold at the foot complimenting the Government on Its mtro­ of the rainbow," decided to get into this type duction. I have two in my pocket now that of business. They have fallen for advertise­ express appreciation of the action taken by ments over the radio and through the Press the Government in bringing down this Bill. by certain truck-selling organisations in the When it became evident to certain hire­ city of Brisbane informing them of the oppor­ purchase companies that this clause, which tunities available in the road-transport indus­ had been hidden by the Labour Government try and of an offer that, if they purcha~ed in their legislation, was contained in the Bill, a vehicle through that company they would they immediately evolved a scheme under be guaranteed work and loading with the which they would not accept any responsi­ vehicle purchased. I can give several bility. No-one blames them for that. They instances where that has happened. immediately said, "All right, we are not the Many citizens then purchased the trucks people who are dealing direct with the pur­ in these circumstances and signed hire-pur­ chaser of the truck." Nine times out of ten chase agreements. They found that they did hire-purchase companies never see the person in fact obtain work and loading for a short with whom they enter into agreements. The period after they took possession of the finance companies said, "All right, the respon­ trucks; but once they signed the hire-purchase sibility must be shifted from us onto the agreement the guaranteed work and the load­ second-hand dealer, or in certain cases the ing quickly disappeared, and they were left new-car selling company." They circulated to their own resources and disillusionment to the companies accordingly. It was then that obtain further employment. If this was not the Chamber of Automobile Industries entered forthcoming and they made default in their upon this campaign of pressure on the Govern­ repayments under the hire-purchase agree­ ment to have us remove Clause 53. I do ments, the vehicles were quickly repossessed. not mind a number of telegrams or a number In many cases they were originally advised of reproaches, but I have received in 4? hours that the vehicles being purchased were of no less than 42 telegrams, 28 of which are 4-ton capacity and consequently were exempt in exactly the same wording with the excep­ from the provisions of the Roads (Contribu­ tion of the signature. tion to Maintenance) Act. However, when Yesterday I got a telegram from. a friend they submitted the vehicles for registration, of mine in Toowoomba. I rang h1m up to they found they could not be registered as find out what he knew about it. My first 4-ton vehicles but had to be registered as remark to him was, "I got your telegram", 5-ton vehicles. Springs had been removed and used his Christian name. He said, "Yes, and certain small alterations had been made, I sent it to you. What the hell is it all but as far as the Main Roads Department about?" I said, Do you mean to tell me was concerned they were 5-ton trucks. that you have sent me a telegram of protest Despite the fact that the sellers warranted when vou don't know what it is all about?" that the vehicle was in a sound mechanical He said, "As a matter of fact, a certa~n state, many of them found that the mechanical approach has been made to all of us in condition was not as stated, and in many cases Toowoomba. We have to send these tele­ they were compelled to go into debt for grams to you. If we don't, we will not get the State 1ramport Bill [1 DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 2065 support of certain finance companies if we have attempted to whip up opposition, but want to sell second-hand or new cars." These we accept the responsibility and this clause telegrams are not a fair indication of the is the basis upon which the Government opinion of the people. There are telegrams hope to receive payment in future for fines here from secretaries of automobile indus­ inflicted, which were previously avoided by tries and various other organisations through­ snide practices. out the State. It is an organised attempt to flurry the Government into withdrawing the Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba West­ legislation. The Bill was carefully con­ Leader of the Opposition) (1.3 a.m.): The sidered. Vile were aware of all the circum­ Minister's defence in this matter is extra­ stances that applied, and because we were ordinary. Firstly he said that the problems aware of them we are doing all we possibly in the road-transport industry were negligible can to protect the State's revenue. Why in character until his Government took should a person who allegedly owns a truck office. We took action, in conjunction with to carry out haulage work deprive the State other States, against the big people who of its revenue? When he is convicted he wanted to avoid their obligations. The immediately passes his truck over to another Minister has done nothing original in that. person, either under an arrangement with a True it is that the volums of interstate second-hand dealer or some hire-purchase trade has increased but the Minister makes organisation. The next morning the truck the extraordinary statement that this has is on the road again, either in the name of all arisen because of the action of a section a new company of which the convicted of the motor trade engaged in snide prac­ person is a principal, or in a dummy name, tices, who guarantee employment for cer­ and it is used to infringe the law in the tain people and then, once the hire-purchase same way as the convieted person offended agreement has been executed withdraw their the previous day. The Government must guarantees of support and then set about protect themselves. Any finance company altering the vehicles, which cannot be re­ that argues in the manner that has been registered on the same basis as originally. used in this approach is not playing its part. If that is so, why didn't the Minister protect The Australian Guarantee Corporation has the small man? We have been accused of stated that this will mean 80 trucks a week representing the capitalists. When it suits less business for it, but I will gamble that him he says we are Comms. and when it before this legislation is proclaimed certain suits him in other circumstances we are other finance companies will advertise that Socialists. Why did he not do what the they will make the finance available. Minister for Labour and Industry was prepared to do and impose heavy penalities No honest second-hand car dealer has against these people as that Minister did anything to fear from this legislation. He for false pretences in the sale of goods? should know the person with whom he is Something of that sort would prevent a dealing and his financial stability. No-one continuation of the practices. can tell me that a second-hand dealer sells Then he made the astounding statement a vehicle to a person without making some that these business people-these friend£ of inquiries about him. If the finance company his who occupy very responsible positions­ is paying due regard to the deposit it should are nothing but sheep, that they are regi­ be receiving, in most cases the deposit it mented, that they get a direction from received will be much more than the fine the Chamber of Automotive Industries and, that would be inflicted. irrespective of the subject or the purport of Consequently, if a vehicle is seized and the recommendation, they willy-nilly follow the Government dispose of it and receive an instruction to send a letter of protest to their just entitlement, what is left rightly the Minister or their member of Parliament. belongs to the person then regarded as the Mr. Chalk: Do you deny it happened? owner. The clause the hon. member for Baroona raised stipulates that that money Mr. DUGGAN: I do not deny it, because goes back to the clerk of petty sessions, I am not familiar with the modus operandi and the person who has the balance of of the Chamber of Automotive Industries. interest in that particular vehicle will The Minister said that they acted like a receive payment of what is left. That is flock of sheep. CtJVered by the Justices Act. Mr. Chalk: Twenty-eight in the same There is nothing in this legislation that wording. the honest operator need worry about. It Mr. DUGGAN: Government members is only those who have been fined and should not talk about our accepting instruc­ who attempt to beat the Government illegally tions from the Q.C.E. when they admit that who have to be concerned. A vehicle will men in the business community, without not be seized until a person has been con­ knowing the recommendation or the purport victed and until it has been clearly indicated of it, will follow an instruction to send that seizure is the only means by which the letters of protest to members of Parliament. Government can obtain the amount to The Minister mentioned the Australian which they are entitled. Guarantee Corporation. Of all the hire­ It is a matter in which certain finance purchase companies in Australia there are companies and automobile organisations many with a high ethical standard, but I d&· 2066 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill not think the Minister could say that any and means to protect their equity, surely has a higher ethical standard than the to goodness the Crown can consider better Australian Guarantee Corporation. Others ways of protecting its equity. This Govern­ may have an equal standard. The Minister ment say they are a private-enterprise said this company had sent out a circular to Government. We have had enough indica­ the effect that it was not going to finance tions that they have departed from that the purchase of 80 trucks. The Minister system, and have even reached the stage said seriously that any number of other hire­ that they prate that we on this side of the purchase companies would be prepared to Chamber are supporting capitalists and they advertise that they would finance them. It over there are the Socialists and the is obvious therefore that the Australian regimenters. We have the amazing situation Guarantee Corporation was not responsible of the Government brazenly and blatantly for these telegrams. It has indicated that saying, "We do not care a hang about these it is not going to make finance available. things; we are going to seize your truck and The other finance companies that say they get our just dues." They claim it is because will make finance available must be of the snide operator and the people engag­ responsible for the telegrams. ing in road transport activities. They have The Minister has gone about this matter put the cart before the horse. in the wrong way. He would be doing the The Minister said this provision was con­ community a much greater service if he tained in previous legislation, but we received emulated the Minister for Labour and no telegrams or protests, and the Minister Industry and dealt with snide business cannot tell me that the people do not know practices. It is useless to talk about honour­ about these things. I have never heard of able people in the community who have a hire-purchase company that did not know offered to make finance available. Is any its full rights. We did not have any com­ reputable finance company justified in plaints. If they were to do as we advocated making finance available fo~· FJPk ·,;~w and deal under this Bili with the false adver­ engage in snide practices. The Minister tisers and those who do not carry out their spoke of foolish people who are prepared obligations, they would soon pull these things to advance money on a deposit of 10 per into line. cent. Under the hire-purchase legislation introduced a few months ago we drew Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (1.11 a.m.): The attention to the problems that would arise Minister promised that he would read the with low deposits and asked that higher regulation that he referred to as the basis of minimum deposits be prescribed, but the Clause 53. I challenge him to read it and Minister cast aside that suggestion. So that prove that in the main it is consistent with the equity of people in assets under hire the wording of the clause. I have already purchase could be protected to a greater said that the seizure did not start in the extent, we asked that the deposits be 1946 Act, and I have given the Committee increased to a greater percentage of the evidence that there was seizure away back price of the article than was proposed in in 1938. If it was traced, no doubt it would that legislation. Our objections were be found that it was introduced by the brushed aside. Now the Minister refers to Moore Government. I do not know why the silly people who are prepared to make the Minister should object to these protests. money available on a low deposit. Mr. Chalk: They can come. Mr. Chalk: You said that. Mr. W ALSH: The Minister used a lot ll•1r. DUGGAN: The Minister said it. of the Committee's time this morning, on the Mr. Chalk: I did not say they were silly. second day of the discussion of the Bill. The protests of the finance companies are Mr. DUGGAN: You did. perfectly justified because of the provisions Mr. Cl.mli•: Check the proofs. of Clause 53. The motor trade people seem to be in for a very bad time with the imple­ M:r. DUGGAN: The Minister made some mentation of the new policy for sales tax, very serious allegations. He is not facing which has been increased by 81- per cent. up to his obligations. In one breath he and 14 per cent. in a matter of ten years. blames the hire-purchase companies, and in the next breath, after we pin him down, he On the policy of confiscation without shifts to the snide operators. The amazing regard to ownership it is no wonder that our thing is that when it comes to recovery by mutual friend, John Taylor, who is not the Crown of its just dues we find recovery related to our genial Chairman, when sending is not possible. In regard to the snide out his Christmas cards this year said that operators to whom the Minister referred, they did not propose to have a Christmas if a person defaults in his payments the cocktail party but would rather give the Minister said that these snide operators can equivalent of its cost to bodies such as immediately get back the vehicle and so Legacy and Boys' Town, which are feeling preserve their equity. According to the credit tightening-up as a result of the Federal Minister they can circumvent the regulations, Government's policy. That was a very but the Crown with all the resources avail­ interesting observation on a Christmas card able to it cannot protect its equity. If it is from a firm of such high standing in the possible for these companies to devise ways community. I have another telegram from State Transport Bill [1 DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 2067

Johnstone's Garage in Bundaberg. Though comes within the provisions of Section 39 the Minister says they have been regimented of the Justices Act, and the person who they have exercised their rights, and there claims he is rightly entitled to the balance are many from Bundaberg. I have not then lodges a claim. If he proves his case, heard the Minister read any telegram from he receives the money. There is nothing Cribb & Foote of Ipswich, and the hon. to be written into the Bill. It is a simple member for Ipswich East assures me he process of law and I believe the hon. mem­ has not received one. No doubt they deal ber for Bundaberg knows that. very extensively in this type of business, I said that the seizure of vehicles was but because they have Government share­ provided for under regulations issued by holders they have been regimented and have the former Government. Regulation No. 40 been told not to send any telegrams. says- The Minister conveyed to the Committee "(1) Any authorised officer may seize that it was the intention of the Commissioner or cause to be seized any motor vehicle- to pay to the owner of the vehicle the (a) Used for the purpose of carrying amount in excess of the actual sum due. on any licensed service at any time IVI.r. Chalk: Not for the Commissioner to when all fees due and payable in respect pay it, but for the clerk of petty sessions. of the license for such service have not been duly paid; or IVI.r. WALSH: The clerk of petty sessions, (b) Used for the purpose of continu­ then. But that does not appear in the Bill. ing an offence against the Act after Mr. Chalk: It does! conviction therefor; Mr. W ALSH: I should be interested if the notwithstanding any change in the owner­ Minister could indicate where it appears. ship of such motor vehicle and may deposit or cause to be deposited such motor IVI.r. Chalk: It says, " ... shall be deemed vehicle for safe custody in any place." to have come into the custody of the clerk of petty sessions in connection with the pro­ Is that not a clear indication that this very ceedings in respect of the offence." basis of seizure was provided by the former Government, notwithstanding any change in Mr. W ALSH: Exactly. ownership? We have merely brought that IVI.r. Chalk: What happens then? provision out into the daylight. The hon. member for Bundaberg paid a IVI.r. W ALSH: If the Minister will read tribute early in the debate to the drafting subclauses (3) and (4), he will agree that they of the 1946 legislation. The same basis of have nothing to do with requiring the clerk parliamentary drafting has been applied to of petty sessions to repay any amount to the this Bill. If loopholes have appeared as a owner of the vehicle. result of cases that have been contested over If the Minister can prove that this form the years, it is to the credit of the Parlia­ of confiscation was in the regulation pre­ mentary Draftsman that he has endeavoured viously, as he said, I am sure the Committee to make the Bill watertight. would like to hear it. On the subject of whether it was contained in the 1946 Act, IVI.r. LLOYD (Kedron) (1.25 a.m.): I was I refer the Committee to Section 67 of the rather intrigued at the Minister's approach, State Transport Facilities Act of 1946, which particularly when he dealt with the remarks contained the power to promulgate regula­ of the Leader of the Opposition. He made tions, and to Clause 19 of the Schedule, his usual attempt to get away from the real which set out the penalties. I am issue. By a snide method he tried to smear surprised that some legal talent did not everything that was put forward. He said advise their clients who would be affected by that he had expected a lot of telegrams and this clause that there was no provision in the other propaganda from hire-purchase com­ Act that would allow it to be done by panies. He said also that he expected a long regulation. Since regulations, like Orders debate on the clause. In other words, he in Council and Proclamations, have to be endeavoured to place the responsibility on us laid on the table of the House within 14' to speak on behalf of the hire-purchase com­ sitting days after Parliament has assembled, panies. Nothing could be further from our it is significant that there is no record of intention. Hire-purchase companies do not any member of the Opposition challenging matter a great deal to us. What does matter such a regulation. I should like to hear is the principle at stake in Clause 53. In an what the Minister has to say about the attempt to cover up the importance of the regulation. matter the Minister referred to the regulation under the 1946 Act, but that is completely Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ different from the wording of the clause. The Minister for Transport) (1.23 a.m.): I shall wording of the regulation was "notwithstand­ reply first to the point raised by the hon. ing any change in ownership," in other words member for Bundaberg and also by the hon. any vehicle owned by the operator used for member for Baroona in regard to Clause the carrying out of any licensed service. 53 (2). The interpretation of the regulation must When money is paid into the clerk of mean that, but the clause goes much further petty sessions under those circumstances it than the regulation. For all we know it may 2068 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill mean that the person who was accused and There is nothing in this Bill to enable the found guilty of any offence against the Act clerk of petty sessions to do what the Minister was hiring a vehicle from another company. suggests. Mr. Chalk: Very true. That is one of the Mr. Chalk: There is no need for it. rackets of it. Mr. W ALSH: I am interested to hear the Mr. LLOYD: It may have been one of the Minister say that there is no need for it. I rackets that were operated, but by only a am making my observation as a layman. small minority. Everybody will be victimised On the other claim that the regulation by this clause. The regulation stated, "not­ contained a firm basis for this clause, I withstanding any change in ownership." understood the Minister to say that there was a provision in that regulation that, not­ The Minister has envisaged the complete withstanding any change in ownership- opening up of road transport in Queensland so that on his interpretation of his own Rill Mr. Chalk: That is right. we cannot expect that in future there will be a small number of large licensed operators, Mr. WALSH: Then the principles of the but numerous small operators who will be regulation should apply. I visualise that the operating in various parts of the State, par­ operator of a vehicle might be John Jones, ticularly in the country. Therefore, on the who sells to John Smith, who continues to Minister's own words, we could reach the operate it. There is obviously a change in stage where we would have numerous opera­ ownership. The difference here is obvious. tors with possibly one or two licensed vehicles. The clause reads- In that case there would not be the same "If it appears to the person to whom the snide attempts to defeat the penalties of the warrant is directed that the vehicle is not, Bill as there have been under the old pro­ at the time of its seizure, the sole and abso­ visions. lute property of the offender--" The Minister says that he is not concerned It does widen the implications of the clause about hire-purchase companies restricting the and obviously brings in the parties who have finance to be made available for the purchase financed the deal. A change in ownership of licensed vehicles-vehicles of over 4-ton under the regulation was where it was one capacity. Possibly he might be right when individual selling a vehicle to another after he says that the hire-purchase companies will the offence had been committed and, not­ change their minds after the Bill is imple­ withstanding any change in ownership, the mented, but in the meantime, if we accept powers contained in the regulation would the fact that they are to restrict finance for operate. The wording of this clause is entirely the purchase of these vehicles, the only people different, as the Minister realises. to suffer will be the small operators. There Mr. ANDERSON (Toowoomba East), are 142,743 commercial vehicles in Queens­ (1.35 a.m.): I am not in favour of this land and probably 50,000 of that type of clause. I think its introduction is unneces­ vehicle are at present being financed by hire­ sary at this stage. At least we could give purchase companies and operated by owner­ the Bill a trial before bringing in such a drivers. If this clause operates against trans­ drastic provision. I feel we are not living port companies it will also operate against up to our policy of liberalising transport the small man trying to earn his living operat­ as we said we would. This will deter ing on an owner-driver basis in a small busi­ liberalisation of transport. It will deter ness. That type of operator will suffer most. the small operator, the person who is trying The large companies can go to a bank and to make a go of it by starting off in his will not have to seek finance from hire­ own business. The penalties under the Bill purchase companies. The Minister has over­ are severe enough to deter many people simplified the hardships that will be created from starting out on their own and running by this provision when he says it is onlv the risk of losing their vehicles. The clause to obviate illegal operations by some trans­ is totally unnecessary. We should give the port operators. Bill a trial without it and. if it is not suc­ cessful, then introduce a clause such as this. Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (1.31 a.m.): The Just because the previous Government Minister was inclined to brush aside the gave themselves the power by way of regu­ observations from this side of the Chamber lation, it does not follow that we should on this clause because he quoted the regula­ take the same action. The previous Govern­ tion and explained that a claim can be made ment had the powers set out in Clause 52 for money that comes into the possession of the Bill, but that does not give us the of the clerk of petty sessions. There is no right to introduce similar powers. provision for the clerk of petty sessions to pay money in excess of the penalty to the Clause 53 is too far-reaching and will real owner of the vehicle. The Minister act as a deterrent to many people. states that there is power for that to be done I have received many telegrams and I under the Justices Act. I am not a legal owe those people an obligation to lodge man but I know that where it is necessary their protest against this clause. I repe~t to use powers of that nature some reference that it is too far-reaching and too drastrc is made to them as contained in another Act. to be introduced at this stage. I could not State Transport Bill [1 DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 2069 vote for it. I should rather see the intro­ growth that occurs overnight immediately duction of an amendment to postpone it convictions are obtained. We have 40 to 60 for a certain time. Although in my opinion cases every day in the courts in Brisbane. it is an unwise clause, it has been included. The week before last 100 cases were heard But I hope it will not be used. People because we were given extra court days. should be given an opportunity of starting The magistrates take a considerable time to off in business if they want to. hear the cases and we have to keep police The clause affects the availability of officers waiting round to give evidence. finance through hire-purchase companies. That Mr. Bennett: The Minister for Labour and in itself does not improve the general position. Industry denied that you had all those police I ask the Minister to consider postponing officers there. the clause for a certain period, so that it Mr. CHALK: We have police officers there can be given further consideration. I ask to give evidence and what the Minister for him to give the Bill a trial without it and Labour and Industry said about his depart­ find out the results before including such ment is as truthful, no doubt, as my remarks a drastic provision. on the Transport Department. Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ It is necessary to keep the officers there. Minister for Transport) (1.38 a.m.): The Very often an officer may be engaged in hon. member for Toowoomba East, as the one case in the morning and another in representative of the people of his elec­ the afternoon. He can do very little work torate, is entitled to express his opinion on during that day. the legislation. I commend him for get­ ting up and expressing his views. How­ The Government have spent a considerable ever, it is my responsibility to reply to him sum of money to conserve the revenue of as I would reply to a speech of an Oppo­ the State and to ensure that fines are paid. sition member. I am sure that the hon. member for Toowoomba East will agree that if a person The hon. member said that in his opinion is found guilty and fined he should not the penalties inflicted under previous legis­ have available to him a means to evade lation were sufficient. payment of the penalty. I have considered the matter carefully, and we are following Mr. Anderson: I did not say "previous a basis that is fair to all and will ensure legislation"; I said "this legislation." that the Government receive payment. Mr. CHALK: I accept that he said that Question-That Clause 53, as read, stand the penalties under this legislation are suffi­ part of the Bill-put; and the Committee cient. Even if we accept that opinion, how divided- in the name of fortune can we impose those AYES, 34 penalties if operators can avail themselves Mr. Armstrong Mr. Jones of the snide practices to which I have , Campbell Knox referred? The hon. member knows only Carey Morris , Chalk Munro too well the ramifications of border­ Dr. Delamothe hopping. He knows also of many of the Mr. Dewar D~. ~;c;;~n practices adopted by people in an endeavour Evans Mr. Pilbeam , Ewan Rae to get around the law. He knows from Fletcher Ramsden the experience of the company he is asso­ Gaven Row ciated with that the Transport Department Gilmore Smith is not in a position to catch up with many Harrison Sullivan Hart Wharton of the people who break the law. It is , l-Ierbert Windsor one thing policing the law and employing Hewitt policemen to secure information, but it is , Hiley Tellers: Hedges Mr. Hughes another thing after securing that informa­ Hooper Tooth tion to go through all the litigation that is involved to get a conviction. Even after NOES, 23 a conviction is recorded against a person, Mr. Adair Mr. Inch Bennett Lloyd and a penalty imposed as a deterrent, , Bromley M ann because the person fined has associated him­ Byrne Marsden self with a company we can execute only Davies Newton against the assets of the company. For Dean Sherrington Donald Thackeray that reason, and because of the circum­ , Dufficy Walsh stances that can arise concerning the owner­ Duggan ship of a vehicle, we cannot secure pay­ Graham Tellers: ment from the offender. Gunn Hanlon Mr. Burrows I repeat that no person who deals Houston Mel!oy honestly-the operator of the vehicle, the company who sold the vehicle, or the PAIRS Mr. Low Mr. Davis company that finances the vehicle-has any­ Richter ,, Tucker thing to fear under this legislation. The Roberts Wall ace Government have framed this clause in these , Bjelke-Petersen Baxter terms on the advice of their legal experts , Lonergan , Hilton who say it is the only basis on which we , Pizzey Diplock can hope to eliminate some of the mushroom Resolved in the affirmative. 2070 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill

Clauses 54 to 66, both inclusive, as read, provisions of the Bill. They have ridden agreed to. roughshod over the general public, firstly, by the repudiation clause, secondly, by their Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba West­ failure to provide any compensation provi­ Leader of the Opposition) (1.54 a.m.): I sions, and thirdly, by the confiscation provi­ move the following amendment:- sions, thereby indicating their complete dis­ "On page 59, after line 10, insert the regard for public opinion. Therefore there following new clause:- must be some effective protection for mem­ '(1) There shall be a Board of bers of the public covered by the Bill. If Review under this Act cons1stmg of the Minister wants additional reasons for three members to be appointed by the the amendment we shall be very happy to Governor in Council and to hold office supply him with them, but in view of the for such period and at such remunera­ earliness of the morning I do not want to tion as the Governor in Council may take up the time of the Committee unduly. determine and who shall be:- The CHAillMAN: Order! The proposed (a) A barrister-at-law in actual prac­ amendment would involve a charge on the tice who shall be Chairman of the Crown that is not covered by His Excel­ Board; lency's message. Consequently I must rule (b) A representative of employers it out of order. in the carrying industry; Mr. DUGGAN: I must accept your rul­ (c) A representative of the Trans­ ing, Mr. Taylor, but at least the moving of port Workers' Union of Employees. the amendment has served the purpose of (2) Any person aggrieved by or dis­ drawing attention to this very important satisfied with any decision of the Com­ principle. missioner relating to the grant transfer Clause 67-0ffences- renewal suspension or cancella­ tion of a license or permit under this Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba West­ Act or the refusal or failure to grant Leader of the Opposition) (1.58 a.m.): I transfer or renew such a license or per­ shall deal now with Clause 67 (2), which mit shall be entitled to give notice in is a dragnet clause. A person may ask that writing to the Commissioner that he something be done, but if it is not carried desires his case to be considered by the out, or if any forbidden action is taken, an Board of Review. offender is liable to a penalty of £100. It (3) The Commissioner shall thereupon seems to me to be an unduly drastic provi­ forward to the Board all documents sion. The clause also provides that action relating to the case and shall also furnish can be instituted within 12 months of the to the Board and to the applicant a commission of the offence that has been com­ statement in writing setting out his mitted. A person could commit an offence, reasons for his decision. leave his employment, and be 1,000 miles away, but because some direction has been (4) All hearings before the Board shall given, and he has failed to carry it out be open to the public. through no fault of the employer or the (5) The Board shall proceed to hear other person involved, action can be taken the matter and shall announce its deci­ against what could be an innocent party. I sion and forward a copy to the Minister. do not know why the Minister should see the (6) Upon confirmation by the Minis­ necessity for a measure of this kind, particu­ ter, the decision of the Board shall be larly in view of the fact that action can be final and conclusive and the Commis­ taken over a period of 12 months under this sioner shall carry it into effect in accord­ drastic provision. ance with its tenor.' " We also find that by this dragnet provision, The amendment is moved at this stage where a body corporate offends against the because, on looking through the Bill, it Act, each and every one of the persons listed appears that the most appropriate place for shall be deemed to have committed the the insertion of this provision is in the offence. The Bill outlines all the people general particulars relating to the Bill. The deemed to have committed the offence. Surely penal clauses are so drastic and as the these things cannot happen in a British com­ final right of appeal that previously reposed munity! I would not mind so much if it in the Minister has been abolished, there had been found that because of the fair and should be some safeguard. This is one impartial operation of the law some of these way that it can be provided. In order to very strong powers were reserved to the avoid the charge that we have permitted in Crown, but we do not trust the Government the Bill an opportunity for capricious and to exercise them fairly. We have seen what unimportant matters to be ventilated before happened with the mass cancellation of a board of review, we have tried to tighten licences, which will not be restored because up the circumstances under which a board of the machinations of people friendly with of review might be invoked by dealing with this coalition Government. They now feel the important matters of the cancellation and they are strong enough to ride roughshod suspension of licences, etc. We particularly over public opinion and that they can cower ask for this because we do not trust the and intimidate people who will capitulate to Government to carry out fairly the proposed them on every occasion. State Transport Bill [1 DECEMBER) State Transport Bill 2071

Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ such user is being or was caused or per­ Minister for Transport) (2.1 a.m.): The Leader mitted, shall respectively be deemed to of the Opposition has referred to this clause have counterfeited it and may be pro­ as a dragnet clause. I will not deny that it ceeded against and punished for an offence is a dragnet clause. In the administration under this section accordingly." of the Transport Department we have encoun­ The penalty is £150 or imprisonment for tered many problems with officers of the six months. department carrying out their duties. It has been found that persons associated with a I ask the Committee to note how well a carrying company have issued instructions to person can be treated. If he goes to gaol employees as to how the books or documents he does not have to pay the fine, too, that we desire to inspect shall be arranged. because that is covered by Clause 53 (4) (b). In many cases they do everything possible What a harvest an "authorised officer" could to frustrate the department's officer in carry­ gather here. What an amount of money ing out his responsibility. Consequently, this and satisfaction he could gather! For clause has been placed in as a dragnet clause instance, a clerk may make a mistake that to ensure that when we desire to implement is misleading to the authorised officer. She the Act we will not be hamstringed by may use the name Jones instead of Smith certain people who are desirous of preventing in receiving or despatching goods. That is the Transport Department or its officers from one offence. A wrong time may be shown fulfilling their obligations. as the time of despatch, for example, a.m. instead of p.m. That is another offence. The hon. member also raised the point A pup may be hitched on and the record that subclause (6) of this clause created of the pup's load omitted from the record personal liability to prosecution. Again this by mistake. provision is written into the Bill because of past experience and past litigation. It is not Mr. Chalk: Bolton briefed you very well. something new. The Parliamentary Drafts­ Mr. DUGGAN: The driver may decide man has informed me that a similar provision on a detour and may go by the Heifer Creek is contained in the Harbours Act, which was Road. introduced by a Labour Government. It appears in Queensland Statutes of 1955. Mr. Chalk: I have a copy of a statement like that. Clause 67, as read, agreed to. Mr. DUGGAN: That is all right. Clause 68-Forgery of license, etc.- Mr. Chalk: Bolton briefed you pretty well. Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba East-Leader Mr. DUGGAN: He may decide on a of the Opposition) (2.4 a.m.): This, too, is an detour and may go by the Heifer Creek extraordinary provision. Let us see what its Road instead of going up Cunningham's implications are. Sub-clause (2) (a) reads- Gap. "With respect to any goods being or Mr. Chalk: He does not deny it. which have been carried by road, any record, document or other writing whatso­ Mr. DUGGAN: Some goods may be ever produced to an authorised officer shall described wrongly. be deemed to be counterfeit if it contains If it is any news to the Minister, I inform information or particulars which by omis­ him that this did not come from Bolton. sion or commission is or are faults or mis­ leading in respect of any of the follow­ Some goods may be described wrongly­ ing:- stock food instead of breakfast food, or barilla soap instead of fancy soap. That is (i) The consignor or consignee of the another offence. The consignor may rush goods; articles on at the last moment and his weight (ii) The place or time of the despatch may be taken instead of the check weight. This or delivery or of the loading or unload­ would be very misleading to the authorised ing of the goods; officer. In those circum5tances there could (iii) Any vehicle (including any trailer be six offences for the one load, all of which could be innocent, but if the person is not attached to a vehicle) used in the car­ riage; caught as a counterfeiter by this, then if there is anything misleading in any other (iv) The route or any part of the route matter appertaining to such carriage, you of the carriage; are up for the £150 or 6 months gaol. (v) The description or quantity of the But who is "you"? Tom, or Gordon, or goods; or Jack, or someone else? It could be the driver. I refer the Committee to subclause (vi) Any other matter appertaining to (2) (b) which states, "The person by whom such carriage; such record, document or other writing was (b) The person by whom such record, produced to the authorised officer"; or it document or other writing was produced could be, "The person using or who used to the authorised officer, and the person for the carriage thereof the vehicle by which using or who used for the carriage thereof the goods in question are being or were the vehicle by which the goods in question carried." Perhaps on a bulk load this could are being or were carried, or by whom be the consignor or consignee of the goods 2072 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill who never saw any such documents. Or, Mr. DUGGAN: The Minister for Health to take the third barrel, it could be, "or and Home Affairs has come in on this. by whom such user is being or was carried I can recall that when he took over his or permitted" and this last fellow could be portfolio he was going to sack everybody. the truck-owners or any manager, director or anyone else on the carrier's staff who is Dr. Noble: Was I? unwise enough to stay in the job except, say, Mr. DUGGAN: They just smooth each as a cleaner. But even the cleaner could other over. The Minister for Health and be well and truly grilled. We mentioned Home Affairs should be the last man to before that the authorised officer could enter speak because he is a man with a great any business premises at any time of the deal of natural skill and ability. day or night, seven days a week. Say he called on Sunday night and only the cleaner The CHAIRMAN: Order! Hon members was about the premises. Under Clause 70 will please allow the Leader of the Oppo­ (1) (f) any authorised officer may question sition to proceed with· his speech, and I with respect to matters under this Act or should like to hear him on Clause 68. appertaining to goods which, or which he has reason to suspect have been or are Mr. DUGGAN: It is refreshing to find intended to be carried by road, any person a man with your discernment, Mr. Taylor, whom he finds in any place and require any who is so keen to listen at this time of person to answer the questions and to make the day to these tremendously important and subscribe a statutory declaration of the matters. truth of his answers. So it will be seen No amount of shrugging of the shoulders that the cleaner should be deaf, dumb, and and trying to introduce extraneous matters wholly illiterate; otherwise he may be in will alter the force of what I am saying. for a stretch or a heavy fine. When these The poor unfortunate operator is trussed sort of things are mentioned the Minister up like a fowl. The combined resources shrugs his shoulders and interjects, "You of the Government have been used to think have been briefed by somebody." This out every possible way by which the poor particular matter was brought to my unfortunate person who transgresses some attention by a solicitor. I do not claim I of these regulations in the opinion of the was responsible for working out all the Transport Department will be completely various things that could happen under the tied up. I am only sorry that the people provisions, but what is the reaction when who prepared the Bill are not in charge these things are mentioned in the Com­ of the gaol administration, because if the mittee? Is the Minister's reaction, "I will poor unfortunate prisoners in Boggo Road answer those charges?" No. His reaction had the same care and attention as the is, "Somebody briefed you on this particular prospective victims of the Commissioner matter." for Transport we would not have any periodic escapes from Boggo Road. I do Mr. Chalk: He did, too. not know of any Bill to which so much Mr. DUGGAN: I told the Minister I got premeditation, thought, care and attention it from a solicitor. The Minister's laughter has been devoted to try to trap a prospec­ does not alter the position. His laughter tive offender, or innocent person who, is not an answer to the charges and imputa­ without any intentions, may evade his tions. It is all very well for the Minister obligations. to say that I have been briefed on this We believe we are fighting for impor­ matter. He has had about approximately tant principles. The Government should be seven officers here all night, and a car wait­ doing it, but we are doing their job; they ing downstairs to run to his office and bring have surrendered. They talk about "Bills down any document he wants at any time. of Rights," and yet they introduce such legis­ If any man has been briefed, the Minister lation as this. No wonder they withdrew has been briefed seven times over. He has the Bill of Rights. If they ever have the the whole of the top panel of the Transport temerity to introduce legislation along simi­ Department down there, as well as the lar lines they will get opposition from us Parliamentary Draftsman and the Assistant and from the public at large. Parliamentary Draftsman. He also has the Commissioner and the Deputy Commissioner This is one of the last occasions I will for Transport, and the Premier's secretary. have of voicing the Opposition's criticism. He has the temerity to say that somebody This is a drastic provision and in my opinion briefed me, and he is carrying a brief the it is the most drastic. If they do not get the whole time. operator on one charge they get him on charges 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6, and if they miss Mr. Chalk: Grow up! on that they can almost fabricate a set of conditions that will trap him on a seventh Mr. DUGGAN: I should like to see the charge. Minister growing responsible in these mat­ ters. When I introduced .a Bill, I never No-one can say there will be harmony had the same retinue of officers as the under this legislation. Anyone who sets up Minister has down here. in business will need not only an accountant, but also a solicitor or barrister Dr. Noble interjected. to say what can be done and what cannot State Transport Bill [1 DECEMBER) State Transport Bill 2073 be done. If someone does not like a trans­ Mr. Bennett interjected. port operator, under this Bill he can probably involve a member of a firm, quite Mr. CHALK: We have not heard from the unwittingly, in a breach of the law. hon. member for South Brisbane today, or Whatever the Minister might say about the yesterday and now we hear from him at matter he must answer the charges, never this hour. mind where they come from. I have told Mr. Bennett: That is another lie of yours. him that I got them from a solicitor. I do You did hear from me yesterday. not care whether he knows it or not. I am not claiming any originality in respect of The CHAffiMAN: Order! The hon. them any more than he claims originality member for South Brisbane is aware of the for all the research work undertaken by his fact that the word "lie" is unpar!iamentary officers to put all the facts before him. I do and I ask him to withdraw it. not deny him that right as a Minister-he is entitled to it-but do not let him sneer Mr. Bennett: Yes, I withdraw it and at us with our limited facilities for collectin" content myself with saying-- information and getting support from people~ The CHAIRMAN: Order! When we ventilate the matter we are met with the sneering remark, "You've got a Mr. Bennett: I spoke twice in the Chamber brief!" It would not matter what sort of a yesterday but the Minister was not here. brief we had. I do not suppose any Opposi­ tion ever had a better brief than the one Mr. CHALK: I know the hon. member we had on the allegations over which we walked in and walked out on both occasions. demanded a royal commission, but our I am quite aware of that. request was summarily dismissed. In fairness it must be admitted that the Government The Leader of the Opposition said he had were given full warning months before the a brief, or that he had details provided for information ever came into the hands of him by a solicitor. I hope he did not pay the Opposition but they did not elect to take the solicitor for the particular brief, because action. It is all very well to say that people the points he has raised relating to a.m. and came along and used the Opposition. The p.m., and so on, are nothing more than the Government were warned months and months figments of the solicitor's imagination or the ago what would happen. Time will tell hon. member's imagination. They are not whether what we say about the provisions offences under this clause. will be borne out. I am sorry to say that it will be. That is my forecast. I will be To illustrate to the Committee one of the very happy if I am proved wrong but I do reasons for the inclusion of this clause in the not think I will be. This is one of the last Bill, I shall quote an extract from a report opportunities I have to effectively protest, prepared for me by a police officer who was and I do so. responsible for making inquiries into certain alleged offences and securing information to Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ enable us to decide whether or not we should Minister for Transport) (2.17 a.m.): The proceed against a particular person. This Leader of the Opposition saw fit to mention is what he said- what he termed the large number of depart­ "As you are aware, the evasive techniques mental officers who are in the lobby and of 'border-hopping' operators have been who are assisting me on the Bill. I believe developed to a degree where the establish­ he lowered his dignity in the Chamber by ment of each breach is becoming pro­ doing so. Some officers of the department gressively more of an investigational matter are anxious to hear the debate because they will have the responsibility of carrying out rather than a process of road interception the provisions later. One officer asked me and later interviews. if he could be present. I brought along my "This was recognised when a Detective­ Commissioner and Deputy Commissioner and Sergeant was transferred to the Department an officer of the Railway Department, Mr. from the Criminal Investigation Branch. Neeson. The hon. gentleman would do the "It has been found that the drivers of same in the same circumstances. The Parlia­ unlawful vehicles tell our Police Officers mentary Draftsman is always available when a pattern of untruths regarding their move­ legislation is being put through Parliament. ments; owners, consignors and the con­ Other officers of the department are perfectly signees point blank refuse to answer ques­ entitled to come along if they want to hear tions or are evasive." the debate and it ill becomes the Leader of the Opposition to endeavour to have written The following quote from a recent report into "Hansard" something that is not factual from the Detective-Sergeant, who has a merely in an attempt to imply something long record of criminal investigation, is from a reference to the number of officers illuminating:- present. I commend those officers for their 'However, I do submit, without any interest and for being prepared to stay here reservations, that the major portion of till the early hours of the morning listening the members of public, who are engaged to the debate so that they will be better fitted in the transport of goods by road in the to carry out the legislation in the years Southern portion of the State of Queens­ ahead. land, and I include the consignor and 2074 Stute Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill

consignee, are without a doubt the most my control. I have come away from deputa­ barefaced liars that I have ever encoun­ tions when the Whip has told me that tered.'" Ministers have been replying. I am expected They are strong words from a responsible to be able to do all this and prepare cases police officer who is performing certain duties at the same time, yet the Minister twits me for this department. That is one of the about one small section of my speech that reasons why it has been necessary to write took up, probably, only seconds. I have these provisions into the Bill. On several spoken in the aggregate for four or five occasions persons have given false names and hours today. provided false information, and on several Let me deal with his other most astound­ occasions we have found counterfeit docu­ ing charge when he referred to "barefaced ments. Manifests of certain licensees are liars". What a nice thing to say! Apparently inspected, and I know that in some instances he agrees with what is contained in that report there are two manifests relating to the one or he would not say that they are a lot of truckload. We have sent the police in and barefaced liars. Because he thinks they are we know the exact circumstances, but it is he wants to introduce these dragnet pro­ so well arranged that I am not prepared, and visions. They have a perfect right to pro­ the Commissioner for Transport is not pre­ tect themselves against an encroachment of pared, to take a case to court on that point. their personal liberty. If that is the sort of We know of the changing of documents thing that is to be introduced into the and the faking of number-plates; we know Criminal Code to ensure that the wishes of of the misleading and false evidence that is the Crown Prosecutor will be met, we shall given. These are the tactics of those who set have something even far worse that a police out to beat the law. We know of altera­ State. Because they cannot get convictions tions made in waybills, and we know of they are apparently prepared to introduce invoices that have come from consignors all sorts of extraordinary powers to enable and consignees. \Ve know of cover-up tactics them to launch a prosecution successfully. that have been adopted by some consignors and What is the good of the Minister engaging consignees immediately an officer has gone in histrionics and twisting what I say about into the transport office. A telephone has two or three of his officers down here? If been used, and by the time the officer reaches there is one officer here who came down the consignor, certain necessary evidence is because he wanted to listen to the debate, I missing. commend him on his zeal and enthusiasm. But why talk about their wanting to hear This is the responsibility of the Govern­ what was said here? They could read it all in ment. If we are to protect the interests of "Hansard". Minister after Minister says, the State, every loophole must be blocked and "I will see that the 'Hansard' report is made every measure taken to bring offenders to available to my officers, who will examine justice. the various submissions." All the talk about Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba West-Leader coming down here to hear what is said is of the Opposition) (2.25 a.m.): The Minister just so much eyewash. Is it that some of the has a habit of saying that it is unworthy of officers want to tell the Minister subsequently me to make whatever observations I may how magnificent he was? I had that experi­ make from this side of the Chamber. He ence with an officer on one occasion. twisted my observations around tonight in Mr. Chalk: You are getting childish as the a manner that suggested that I was denying day goes on. him the right to have senior officers avail­ Mr. DUGGAN: I know the Minister likes able to him outside the Chamber. I did not it-"How did it go today?" "You went very do that. Following the Minister's statement well." An officer with whom I was associated about a brief I had from someone, I said when I was a Minister rang me up one morn­ that it ill-behaved him to talk about briefs ing and said, "Mr. Minister, I want to con­ when he had several officers down here. gratulate you on that magnificent speech you Mr. Chalk: They are entitled to be here. made last night." I had not made a speech. I said "What was it about?", and he did not Mr. DUGGAN: I said that. It ill behaved know. I had a high regard for him but he the Minister to make his comment when I had a tendency to wish to flatter the Minister. said I had one submission from one solicitor, Fancy the Minister talking about bare­ considering that he has the services of a faced liars when the Government say they large number of his officers. I would sug­ have to strengthen the police powers to get gest that the Minister for Transport is convictions. He talks also of innuendoes. probably in the Chamber less than any other He should be the last one to talk. When Minister. I have to sit here day after day the Minister suggested one particular explan­ without any assistance, listening to Minister ation for the Bill he immediately read a after Minister introducing Bills. We have police report that he had somebody prepare not seen the Minister for Transport in the for him. Chamber in the last three or four months Mr. Chalk: He submitted the report. except to sign the roll. I do not think one Minister can say that I have been absent Mr. DUGGAN: And you read it here with unless the circumstances were entirely beyond relish. State Transport Bill [J DECEMBER] State Transport Bill 2075

Mr. Chalk: Absolutely, to prove my case. not hesitated to bring before Parliament matter that, in effect, libels many people who Mr. DUGGAN: All right, let it be have no means of replying either to him or recorded in "Hansard" and let the people of to the report. I can only assume that the South-west Queensland know that in the report he read from was Inspector Bauer's opinion of the present Minister for Transport report. they are a lot of barefaced liars- Mr. ChaH•: You are wrong again. Mr. Chalk: Go ahead, twist it. Mr. W ALSH: The two officers who went 1\llr. DUGGAN: The Minister did not dis­ around were Inspector Bauer and-- sociate himself from it. He said he agreed with it. That is what he said a few moments Mr. Chalk: It has nothing at all to do with ago and he read it with great gusto. I would Inspector Bauer's inspection. not mind if the policeman feels that way An A.L.P. Member: Why don't you say about it, but if the Minister comes in here who it was? and, because the policeman cannot get con­ victions, amends the law to ensure that Mr. Chalk: You would like me to. convictions will be recorded, it is a different Mr. W ALSH: The Minister has had matter. several squads of police investigating this This is the last that I will be able to matter, and it was interesting to hear the speak on the Bill. I reiterate what I said report he read, and the manner in which on its introduction: it was "Black Thursday" these operators were described. The for the transport industry of this State and Minister will remember that there was the more we read it and go through it, the tabled in the House a document which more explanations we receive, the more con­ clearly set out that a major operator in this vinced we are it is unworkable and will not State brought certain evidence before one achieve the results expected of it. Many of the investigating officers, Inspector people who initially applauded the Minister Bauer. He was the officer named in the for introducing it will, in the course of time, document and I am only repeating it. The say there have been several serious miscalu­ statement in the document was that lations of its effects. It has already pro­ Inspector Bauer did not appear to be duced a measure of chaos in the transport interested. Apparently the evidence given industry. It has already been responsible for to him was so hot that it might have some of the large organisations indicating involved the Government or the transport that they will not be as co-operative as administration, as it were, and he did not previously in financing the transport indus­ want anything to do with it. try. We have had all sorts of deputations Mr. Chalk: That is a reflection on from people who believe they will be Inspector Bauer. affected. I feel that the time that the Opposition has Mr. W ALSH: I do not care if it is; I am spent has perhaps been fruitless in merely repeating the statement contained in obtaining any legislative response to the document. our pleas. But at least we have Mr. Chalk: In the dossier. done our job as an Opposition and the attitude we have adopted has been a Mr. WALSH: It was among the charges. ge_nuine desire to see that the transport policy If it is taken as a reflection on Inspector la1d down by the Government of this State Bauer, the only way the Government can is fairly and equitably applied and is likely disprove it is by appointing a royal commis­ to result in proper and soundly balanced sion, and getting Inspector Bauer into the development of the State. witness box. I do not feel that that result will be The CHAIRl\iAN: Order! I ask the hon. achieved by this measure and I have no member to direct his remarks to Clause 68. apologies for the contributi~ns I have made to the debate on it. Mr. W ALSH: I am merely dealing with ~· W ALSH (Bundaberg) (2.34 a.m.): The the points raised by the Minister. He has Mm1ster has been trying to push this Bill often referred to faked documents. That through and I cannot say he has been very was another feature of the report he read. co-operative. Much of the debate has been Again, he probably overlooked the fact that enwuraged and aggravated by the Minister's a document tabled in this House said there intemperate language. He has been noted was a faked Cabinet minute. But the Premier for that from the time he first introduced and his Cabinet and the Government are not this measure. When any hon. member rose doing anything about appointing a royal com­ to make a point, no matter how relevant to mission into that aspect, and the Minister the discussion or how important, he embarked for Justice was the one who was charged upon a campaign of abuse, to some extent with faking the document. They just sit personal, and when it suited him to use there as if it means nothing. the report of any piece of argument to justify Mr. MUNRO: I rise to a point of order. his point of view, irrespective of what lan­ It is not true to say that I was charged with guage is contained in the report he has faking a document. I also make it clear 2076 State Transport Bill [ASSEMBLY] State Transport Bill that at no time have I ever been concerned practice of having minutes confirmed at in any way with the faking of a document, the next meeting, and surely it is irre­ and I ask the hon. member to withdraw that sponsible for anybody to refer to a Cabinet insinuation. minute as being faked, when all that is done, if there has been a slight inaccuracy The CHAIRMAN: Order! I ask the hon. in the record, is for it to be corrected at member for Bundaberg to withdraw the the next meeting of Cabinet, when the statement that the Minister for Justice was minutes come up for confirmation. charged with faking a document. I therefore suggest to the responsible for­ Mr. WALSH: If the Minister denies the mer Minister that he will now get up and statement, but I have not charged the Mini­ withdraw the very nasty and completely ster with faking a document-not at all. unfounded insinuation contained in his Why the Minister is trying to cover the remarks. statement made in the House and tabled in Clause 68, as read, agreed to. the House I do not know, because he can­ not get away from it by taking that attitude. Clauses 69 to 73, both inclusive, as read, I make it clear that I did not charge the agreed to. Minister for Justice with faking a document. Clause 74-Regulations- The CHAIR!VIAN: I asked the hon. mem­ ber a few moments ago to direct his remarks Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (2.42 a.m.): to Clause 68. The dossier has nothing to do Clause 74 gives power to the Governor in with the clause. Council to make regulations not inconsistent with the Bill. I wish to draw the attention of the Mr. WALSH: I realise that, but I am only Committee to this rather long clause, which following the pattern set by the Minister. seeks to give the Governor in Council power I know the Minister has embarrassed the to make regulations. Section 67 (2) takes Chair. up little over a line in the Act, and Section 67 (1) does not take up one-third of the Mr. Chalk: No. page, but this clause takes up almost a page. We are expected to go through this Mr. W ALSH: In that his arguments were and resolve all the legal technicalities that entirely irrelevant to the clause, but, as you may be involved. The Minister must know have ruled in that way, Mr. Taylor, I shall that there is a good deal in this clause that respect your ruling, even if the Minister does is not typical of clauses contained in Labour not. Government legislation. Without unduly Hon. A. W. MUNRO (Toowong-Minister delaying the Committee at this very late for Justice) (2.39 a.m.): I wish to say a word hour of the morning, I shall proceed to or two which may relate very indirectly to adopt the usual practice of the Opposition the clause but do relate to the standard of of the day and call "Divide" on the clause. debate in the Chamber. Question-That Clause 7 4, as read, stand Opposition Members interjected. part of the Bill-put; and the Committee divided- The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. mem­ AYES, 36 ber for Bundaberg has made some reference Mr. Anderson Mr. Hooper to the Minister for Justice, and in fairness , Armstrong , Hughes , Beardmore , Jones I shall allow the Minister for Justice to make , Campbell Knox a statement. , Carey , Morris , Chalk , Munro Mr. MUNRO: Thank you, Mr. Taylor, Dr. Delamothe , Nicklin for your indulgence, which I am sure will Mr. Dewar Dr. Noble Evans Mr. Pilbeam be supported by every fair-minded member Ewan , Rae of the Committee. The hon. member for F!etcher Row Bundaberg at this hour in the morning has Gaven Smith Gilmore , Sullivan seized the opportunity in the debate on Harrison , Tooth this clause to make a gratuitous insult to Hart , Windsor me, as a member of the Cabinet, by quoting, , Herbert Tellers: from some irresponsible statement, some­ Hewitt .:..2 Hiley Mr. Ramsden thing to the effect that I have been charged , Hodges , Wharton with faking a Cabinet minute. At no time have I ever been charged with the faking NoES, 23 of any document. There has been some refer­ Mr. Adair Mr. Lloyd ence and I am speaking without notes-in Bennett ,, Mann some obscure manner to a document which , Bromley , Marsden Burrows , Melloy has been referred to as a faked Cabinet , Byrne , Newton minute. May I say quite clearly and Davies , Sherrington unequivocally that at no time has there Dean , Thackeray been a faked Cabinet minute--either faked Donald , \Valsh by me or by anybody else. , Dufficy , Duggan Tellers: Graham May I give the general basis for that? Gunn , Houston Cabinet, like any other body, adopts the , Hanlon Inch 2077 State Transport Bill (2 DECEMBER] Questions

PAIRS Mr. Low Mr. Davis Richter Tucker Roberts Wallace Bjelke-Petersen Baxter Lonergan Hi! ton Pizzey Diplock Resolved in the affirmative. Clauses 7 5 to 79, both inclusive, as read, agreed to. Schedule-Subject-matters for Regula- tions.- Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (2.51 a.m.): Although we have dealt with 79 clauses in this Bill compared with 70 in the 1946 Act, there are only 16 clauses in the Schedule compared with 20 in the 1946 Act. Clause 15, which deals with licences to hire, takes up four pages. Hon. members will realise that it contains a great deal of verbiage, and in case the l"remier or one of his Ministers says at a later stage, "You allowed all these to go through without challenge," I wish to say, without elaborating on the schedule, that I shall call "Divide" on it. Question-That the Schedule, as read, stand part of the Bill-put; and the Committee divided- AYES, 36 Mr. Anderson Mr. Hughes ,, Armstrong Jones Beardmore Knox Camp bell Morris Carey Munro .. Chalk , Nicklin Dr. Delamothe Dr. Noble Mr. Dewar Mr. Pilbeam Evans Rae Ewan Ramsden Fietcher Row Gaven Sullivan Gilmore Tooth Hart Wharton Herbert Windsor Hewitt Hiley Tellers: Hodges Mr. Harrison Hooper Smith

NOES, 23 Mr. Ad air Mr. Lloyd Bromley M ann Burrows Marsden Byrne Melloy Davies Newton Dean Sherrington Donald Thackeray Dufficy Walsh Duggan Graham Tellers: Hanlon Houston Mr. Bennett Inch Gmm

PAIRS Mr. Low Mr. Davis Richter Tucker Roberts Wall ace Bjelke-Petersen Baxter Lonergan Hilton Pizzey Diplock Resolved in the affirmative. Bill reported, with amendments. The House adjourned at 3.1 a.m.