Türkmeneli İşbirliği ve Kültür Vakfı AVRASYA İNCELEMELERİ MERKEZİ CENTER FOR EURASIAN STUDIES

27 March 2014, İstanbul ABOUT AVİM

he Center for Eurasian Studies (AVİM) was established in the beginning of T2009 by the Cooperation and Cultural Foundation in Ankara. The aim of the Center is to conduct research on matters relating to in two major areas, the Caucasus and the , and in this context Eastern Europe, European Union, and the continent of Asia with particular focus on ECO member states, Russia and China. The Center also publishes its research within a written and digital environment, organizes conferences on these subjects, attends and contributes to education..

AVİM has also taken on the activities of the Institute for Armenian Research which was active in Ankara in years 1999-2009 within the framework of the Center for Eurasian Strategic Studies (ASAM). Maintaining the continuation of the research on the Armenian issues, AVİM publishes three journals by Terazi Yayıncılık. These journals are the following:

Ermeni Araştırmaları (first publication in 2001)

Review of Armenian Studies (first publication in 2002)

Uluslararası Suçlar ve Tarih (first publication in 2005)

The Center prepares a daily bulletin which includes news and commentaries relating to the Armenian Question, Balkans, , Asia and Europe (EU). This bulletin is forwarded to approximately 7.000 members by e-mail.

The Center also has a website consisting of a home page and four different folders (The Caucasus and the Armenian Issue, the Balkans, Asia, and Europe).

Ambassador (R) Ömer Engin Lütem serves as the Honorary President of the Center for Eurasian Studies.

Ambassador (R) Alev Kılıç is the Director of the Center for Eurasian Studies, since January 2013.

Süleyman Nazif Sok. No. 12/B Daire 4 06550 Çankaya/ANKARA Tel: 0 (312) 438 50 23-24 • Fax: 0 (312) 438 50 26 www.avim.org.tr CAUCASUS AND (Unedited transcripts of oral, spontaneous presentations)

İstanbul, 27 March 2014, Bahçeşehir University . Warsaw andIslamabad.Heisalso the author of the book titled Turkish Ministry of Foreign Affairs, served as Ambassador in Turkish embassiesin in many field researches. titled on the former geography and Turkey for along time, publishedbooks journalist/author who maderesearches on the Caucasus. Goltz, who hasalso worked Goltz, who untilrecently taught atMontana State University, isan American Mr. Thomas GOLTZ andR. Ambassador Candan AZER madekeynote presentations. 27th of March, 2014.In the meeting that was moderatedby R. Ambassador Alev Kılıç, Eurasian Studies (AVİM in Ankara), organized ameeting on “Caucasusand Azerbaijan” (ULMER), incooperation with Azerbaijan Strategic Research Center and Center for with regard to the region with the audience. regardregionwith the with tothe relations between Turkey and Armenia. reflected his observations inhisbooklight of political developments with regard to Azer heldhigh-level positionsin the Turkish Foreign Ministry on the region and F a Retired Ambassador H.E. Candan Azer, who has over 40 years of experiencein the Bahçeşehir University InternationalLeadership Application andResearch Center Both speakers shared their experience, observations and their general deliberation t h e “ r A

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CAUCASUS AND AZERBAIJAN CAUCASUS AND AZERBAIJAN to leave from the Azerbaijan andalso to comeback from Nagorno-Karabakh. helicopter last with the war time Nagorno-Karabakh duringthe who flew to journalist to hosthimhere in Turkey atleastamonthin year. State University. Helives most of his time inMontanabut we alsohave the pleasure Thomas Goltz isindeedajournalistanduntilrecently was aprofessor atMontana him not only aninvestigator butanintrusive journalist, one. These are his words. Mr. and when Isay only Iamsure journalist, Ambassador Azer will Becausehe calls object. distinguished, very prominent and one is“Muallim” Thomas Heisajournalist Goltz. Strategic Research Center of Azerbaijan. Today, we have two speakers asI’ve said very to the cooperation we received from Bahçeşehir University and ULMAR andalso the probably always will be,“The Caucasus and Azerbaijan”. We thank as AVİM, of course prominent speakers. The topic is very actual, very current, ithasalways beenand organize ameetingatBahçeşehir University today with two very distinguished, Mr. Goltz or Goltz Muallim, indeedknows Azerbaijan from inside He out. was “the” Eurasian Studies Center locatedin Ankara, AVİM has the privilegeandpleasure to D i r e c t o r

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( A V İ M ) of hisexperiencesin the area with us. Thank you very muchMr. Goltz. very pleasednow to listen to himand we hope that he will share more than a tiny bit indicative enough to tell the audiencehisexperiencein the Caucasus. So we shallbe Diaries” and“The Chechen Diaries”. So just the titles of these books,I think, are understand was also translated into Azerbaijani languagenow. Then “The is the author of three very prominent books.“The Azerbaijan Diaries” which I So heknowsnot only Azerbaijan butalso the Karabakhissueand the Caucasus, he [ 5 ]

CAUCASUS AND AZERBAIJAN CAUCASUS AND AZERBAIJAN again because the times that we are inrightnoware particularly interesting. Everything blogging andsuchlike. And Ihave to say though rightnowI yearn to beajournalist I Inolongeramajournalist. journalist, only write for my friends on the internet, of different things to say, butlet’s juststart with the corrections. Iused to bea number a have I not disappoint. I do hope that I and creating thisopportunity for (Kılıç) as well. also apparently nolongerin the room rightnow, butit was agreat pleasure to seehim sparring partnerback then when I was ajournalisthere, in Turkey in the 1980’s, who is were here Nigâr(Göksel)in the backandIalsoranintoan old friend of mineand all sorts of old friends; there isHeath(Lowry) of courseandIhave forgotten that you is my first time at this lovely, lovely University. And Ihad the pleasure of runninginto I thank here to the Ambassadors inmy rightand to my left Candan (Azer)and Alev First of all deep thanks andgratitude for invitingmehere to this venture. And this M o n t a n a

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D i a r y ” , book on Chechnya isgoing to be“ and it was sharpas the “ New York then Berlin. I talked myself German. I decided to go visit abrother in Africa. Briefly Istarted my lifeinNorthDakota want beactorplayright got to Chicago then expertise Ihave on this issue and other issues? “Nagorno” isanadjective asmountaininRussian.How did Icome to whatever are several Russiansentenceshere about the KarabakhmeaninginRussian,because issue, Irefer to upper or mountainous Karabakh when I’m speakinginEnglish. There from valley Karabakh. So then I tend to insist that when Ispeakabout the Karabakh twenty years ismainly of all the refugees andinternally displaced people who came a mountain, you alsohave a valley. And disaster that occurred in Azerbaijan on last international discourse which Imaintainconfuses the entire issue.Becauseif you have is rightnowbutit the equivalent. Only inRussianitis“Nagorno”as well asin “Mountainous Karabakh” andin Karabağ” or “Yukarı Armenian I forgot exactly what it territory isreferred to as“Upper-Karabakh”. In Azerbaijani “DağlıkKarabağ” or is aRussianadjective, meaningmountainous.In Azerbaijan andin Armenia the disputed possibly now Crimea. We have to be very very careful about the terms we use.Nagorno or non-recognized entities;Karabakh, South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Trans-Dniester and entities non-state entities; the problematic and thesevarious Azerbaijan, the Caucasus this book for you. Nobodyelse wants this book.It’s going to be“ “ was come out book to ButI is apersonalaccount. was never comfortable with the title. Then, my second finally Icame andI’ve callmy said “allright, book‘Azerbaijan becauseindeedit Diary” the bookslike and“GuadalcanalDiary” there “BerlinDiary” isaprecedent for itso, title for itbut, friends andpublisherinsisted that itshould follow in the footsteps of the author of three books one is“The Azerbaijan Diaries”Ihadacompletely different and waiting for the nextmove. you rightnow that throughout the Caucasus everybody is walking on pinsandneedles disagreement about the historicalreasons why Russiaretook Crimea etc.butIcan tell what are hisintentions? There is wild speculationacross the board. There isgreat the world is focused on what ishappeningin Ukraine what ishappening with Mr. Putin; in the Caucasus rightnowand the Black Sea Region andindeedin Turkey of courseand get to argue about the title. You’ve already got one called“ as well butI was late to deliver it to the publisherand the publishersaid“You don’t I had to accept Finally,that. came the “ I maintainmy lifehasbeenserious of ‘nasip’etc. flux andcoincidences‘kısmet’ about in ourdiscussions is that say would correctiveI The other thingthat Couple of other things, thank you for your remarks aboutme.Firstajoke, yes Iam Chechen Diary Chechen Azerbaijan Diary Azerbaijan Chechnya Diary Chechnya ” andIhadacompletely different title for that Georgia Diary Georgia ” they basically said“Look we are publishing [ 7 ] ”. Which Ireally disagreed with, but ” and the publisher was the same Azerbaijan Diary Azerbaijan Georgia Diary. Georgia ” thusyour ”

CAUCASUS AND AZERBAIJAN CAUCASUS AND AZERBAIJAN And then afterabouta decade in Turkey, it was time for me to do somethingelse. So, to Turgut Özal, the Özal’sso thattransformed reform Turkeyperiod oftime. over that period of time before most of you presumably weren’t even born. moved in Ankara to begincarrierasajournalistcovering Turkey during this fascinating it I or not. did so. As aresult, IendedupinIstanbul1982, decided to stay. Then I two registered students,so they said you are going to study Turkish, whether you liked in Turkish. There was one registered studentandkeep the class open, and they needed Persian was filled, Hebrew was filled but there was ajust opened upbrandnewclass get that Ihad to studyanotherMiddleEasternlanguage to proficiency degree atNYU the equivalentand to give mea full scholarship to getaPh.D., which Inever got. To also obviously in the news today. It was whatever, the Islamicrepublic of Morocco or I study Arabic properly and then I went to live in for a while inMorocco, which is half there performing Shakespeare in the street Igotback to the university, NYU, where how terriblethe be. me can because the Germans told Turks called Turkey. Iknow the Turks from Berlin where Ilive; I was terrified of the Turks Hitchhike across EasternEurope down through the Balkansandeventually this place Basically,military takeKenan overEvren, thetransitionlast from thetransition the I spent two days crossing Turkey, with relief into Syria. Ispent about a year anda [ 8 ] We spend two intense weeks in the Summer July 1991. Got up to the Karabakh front, got off we and 1991. was Tashkent.JulyWeBaku, in spent four days figuredwe outthat It we did. what indeed is and that waiting side of for youfrontier”be onthe far will way of Pan-Turkic enthusiasmat the border of Soviet Socialist Azerbaijan, my family but it’s If corrupt. you canbuy yourself a ticket and talk your way by walking alittle said, “Thomas there isanew flight direct from to Istanbulandback.It’s expensive between the Soviet Socialist Azerbaijani peopleandcitizens of Republic of Turkey. He him upandIsaid“Yalçın, what do I do?” You have always talked aboutgreat fraternity KGB, healways thought I was CIA but we hadsomemutualrelationship. So Icalled and hecame from the Soviet Socialist Republic of Azerbaijan. Ialways thought he was head of the Soviet News Agency task in Ankara at that time. Hisnameis Yalçın Alizade visa. Isaid what amI to do? Ipicked upaphoneandcalledan old friend who was the to give me the tickets and told meIhave to goback the USA andreapply for another is from San Francisco directly to the Tashkent. There was nosuch flight. They refused Tashkent and the airportpeopleinIstanbulsaidMoscowisnot on your Visa; your Visa Kurds came out from NorthernIraq.Icame to Istanbul to buymy ticket to go to Soviet . I applied for agrantandreceived it to go to study the Turkic speakingrepublics of The year was 1990;I was down inrocky Kurdistan aspart of arelief thing. All the [ 9 ]

CAUCASUS AND AZERBAIJAN CAUCASUS AND AZERBAIJAN Yılmaz, andliterally hislastact on Ataturk’s death date of November 10 independence which was anexceedingly delicate move at the time madeby Mesut recallrestoredrecognition that of gun onthe Azerbaijani jumped the Turkey independence, interestingly enough,particularly diplomats in the audience, you will HaydarPresident Aliyev.and demiseofthe Finally,rise Azerbaijan, the downto Republicrepressions throughDemocratic the duringtheSoviet occupationof show you. The film hasnow four parts,halfanhoureverything from the Azerbaijan the man who isgoing to bespeakingat the end of the part three, which Iamgoing to experience. is impossible to do!” Two andahalf years on. Ithasbeen anextraordinary learning as well. cars, hundred carslong.Butit was clear that something was happeningin this aspect like ithadbeensuch drive of energy resources like oil andgas. There were queues of politic bureau, namely Haydar Aliyev andalsoidentified the fact that Azerbaijan looked could goand find this guybutnobody wanted to talk aboutso-called first Turk in the reawakeningstill in was when younationalism Azerbaijan, tookthetrain identified the United States only recognized United Statesonly Azerbaijan on Christmas day. On theday Gorbachev independence day.” “Namely, October 18 “Well, in the independence day.” And Isaid,“Oh,nextMay?”He“No, the second idea.” This was in September andIsaid“When do you want this film?” andhesaid, Azerbaijan independenceasseen through foreign eyes. And Isaid“Itsoundsreally nice “Budget for the film thatyou’regoing totakesaid; thetwentyyears he of then me and budgethasbeenapproved.”then said;“The And Isaid;“Budget for what?” and approached somebody in president,front airport ofthe way tothe palace onthe great flew me to Montanaas well as those lot of other people,andafterall dancing in the Minister of Customs andnumber two powerin Azerbaijan, Kemalettin Hardarov, who and former Emergency Situations Ministry of century the wedding ofthe invited tothe presentation concludedrightnow. 1992, 1993and1994 were crucialand were very very chaotic. This is where Igetmy we were livingin the middle of the movie, because the events in Azerbaijan in1991, a bookabout the placeand then I discovered I walked in the middle of the movie and spent about two weeks there. Two years laterIcameup for abreathe. Thought Iread would I news outthere.figuredevery outthat other BBC or corrupt or false onthe back to Azerbaijan after two weeks, becauseallreports from Azerbaijan Iknew to be abort againstMr. Gorbachev and the slowbutsure collapse of the Soviet Union. I went As you will see,it is Azerbaijan, exclusively through foreign eyes with one exception, Finally, we’ve got to Tashkent anda week latercameevents of August 19 Years later, years with the association of Azerbaijan, acouple of, in2011,I was [ 10 ] th in three weeks.” Isaid,“You’re crazy! This th th 1991. The 1991 the who experienced the period first hand. the period of President Haydar Aliyev, inearly 1990s, from the eyes of the foreigners 35 minutes, which highlighted the important developments in Azerbaijan especially in play the film? the TANAP and TAP and Azerbaijan gasalternative to Russia, to Europe etc. Shall we thoroughly aninternationalactor-theBaku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipe-; we are going through made Azerbaijan has and successes of finally thethingthat Azerbaijan period, the Aliyev HaydarFailedstate, through the 1994. period of the dynamicsof Azerbaijan duringthis going to backintoself-determination for everybody, butitisanicebook,explaining and world ruled way the primary thingthe be the used to integrity order orterritorial to beIamgiving the events of Crimea andelsewhere, the rupture of the international basically saying we are nowlooking forward to the future. What is that future going Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan line the South of Baku with my conversation with İlham Aliyev, and ithasbeena failed state. chaos andconfusion the very lowestpointin Azerbaijan where it was clearly identified Araks River. Azerbaijani refugees were swimmingacross the Araks River intoIran.Itis way downtothe all the Karabakh marchingwereMountainous forward outsideof independence. Right nowI would like to show you the film. Itis the lowpoint of Azerbaijani represent the Russian f,Federation andI wish to have USSR stricken from the record. shaking andsaid,“Excuse me, this morningIrepresented the USSR, from here on I NATO partnership for peace thing was called from the room urgently, came back was was inBrusselsat the time when -Iam forgetting hisnamebut- Soviet delegate to the that period of time. When he was the new foreign minister of Republic of Turkey and explained the delicacyof who end ofthe film at the put Hikmet managed to Çetin-I colleague or your former colleagueMehmet Ali Bayaraddressed this subjectandalso role in the film and we are notgoing to see that chunk of itrightnow. But your formally resigned hispresidency of the USSR and dissolved the USSR. This playsabig A part of the film, of which Goltz isaconsultant andaproducer was shown for about pipe for the piece of symbolic laying ofthe first is the part three end ofthis The far Namely, the Spring of 1994,all this politicalchaosisgoing down, the Armenians [ 11 ]

CAUCASUS AND AZERBAIJAN CAUCASUS AND AZERBAIJAN those days. Please Ambassador. have a very comprehensive picture of bothpersonalandas official recollections of to face meetings with all those who mattered then. That is why I think now we shall General responsible for Sothern Caucasus. So hehas first-hand informationand face Azerbaijan, Ambassador Candan was heading the department asDeputyDirector and duringthoseveryindependence of difficultdaysof first yearsAzerbaijan of Azerbaijan butalso from acollection of official positionandinformation,because the Azerbaijan, inNakhichevan.Heisaposition to tell personal family memories of because Ambassador Azer comes from Azerbaijani roots. His father was bornin Now we will have Ambassador Candan Azer to tell hispart of the story. Isaid hispart Now, I think we are done with the introductory and film part of the Goltz’s story. D i r e c t o r

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( A V İ M ) stationed at our missioninBatumi. Our other agents from an agent of the Ottoman secret service, the Caucasus. The reason for that was because from 1916 to 1924, he was working as my father was borninNakhchivanandafter the October Revolution hehad to leave Now, my friend andcolleague Ambassador Kılıçsaid that Iam fifty percent Azerbaijani, opportunity to meetmy old friends. Thomas andI were friends from 1992inBaku. much for all the three institutions that have brought us together andgave meanew don’t you ever againcommunicate with us”. This was it. Istanbul etc. The response came:“We want you to behappy. If you want our happiness, moved from Nakhchivan to Baku. Hesaid that he was going to marry with agirlin Hesentamessage did it. to Bakusincein the meantimerest of the family have already he wanted to share the news with his family. Henever told mehowhe buthe did it, of the family stayed behind.In1934hemetmy motherand they decided to marry. So contact with his family. He was the only member of the family who ran away. The rest rather go”. So heescaped.From 1924 to 1934, that’s ten years, he didn’t have any CHEKA? CHEKA is forerunner of KGB. And they warned my father “Abdullah Bey, you discovered that my father’s name was appearing on the blacklist of CHEKA. What is R e Thank you very much for these words and for this introduction. Ialso thank very t .

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CAUCASUS AND AZERBAIJAN CAUCASUS AND AZERBAIJAN Nakhchivan. You are very muchneededin the capital.Hesaid“ said “Your Excellency, this isanemergency situation, I think you shouldnotbein and mutually supporteach other very much. So took my chanceandcalled Aliev and our meetingsaboutbeingNakhchivani. They said that people from Nakhchivanrespect him to do so?” At this point Iremembered what my relatives have told meat one of called him Aliev didn’t move. Why shouldhe take the riskandgo to Baku, when Ibeg him andencourage to go to Baku”Ireflected “our President andForeign Ministry him.” “Yes, Imethimbefore ”Iresponded. Minister Çetin demanded “You”d bettercall Çetin asked me to his office andsaid,“Candan, your roots are inNakhchivan, you know our President Demirel called, our Foreign MinisterHikmet Çetin calledandHikmet inviting Aliev to go to Baku,he was reluctant. Maybe Thomas canhelpme there. So rest of the country, a very “nice” design by . Although, EbulfezElçibey was Nakhchivan which ispart of Azerbaijan. As you knowNakhchivaniscut-off from the only Upper-Karabakh but other regions too. domestic situation, Azerbaijan was in war with Armenia and was losing territory, not of EbulfezElçibeyandcoming to power of Haydar Aliyev. Inaddition to the chaotic we did not want, we alsoplayed arole in domestic politics of Azerbaijan. our relations. Our relations with Azerbaijan becamesointense, intimatealthough have any difficulty. They were ready. With Azerbaijan, letmesaya few words about into talks to establish diplomatic relations with Georgia and Azerbaijan. We did not Azerbaijan amonthahead of the other countries. Soon afterrecognition we entered simultaneously inDecember1991,but Azerbaijan hadapriority. We recognized once made the Soviet Union. We recognized all these newly independentcountries bilateral relations with all three South Caucasian countriesalong with allrepublics that not gobeyond what Ican describe as“good neighborly relations. were times when we hadhopes for warmer relations with Moscow, but they really did continuously cooled with Soviet Union, that iron curtaingot thicker and ticker. There cooling off.1924relationsstarted relations with theSoviet As our Union our Turkey and the Soviet Union in1924, the year my father left Azerbaijan. Becausein concept from Turkey’s perspective, I do believe that the iron curtain fell down between that cameintobeingafter the Second World War. When we look to this iron curtain conceptual curtaininEurope between the Soviet Union and the Western Countries again and finally convinced Aliev to Baku.For a time Aliev actedas Speaker of the - Ialso think like that.” This was the first clue that he would go. Then Demirel called At that time HaydarAtPresident Republic thattime ofthe Aliyevwas the Autonomous of led tothedownfall in which Azerbaijan months ofturmoil happened duringthe This When the of the Soviet Union collapsedin1991 we hadachance to enterinto Iron Youabout the Curtain. we talkedwhen know thetimes was the all That [ 14 ] Ben de öyle fikirleşirem öyle de Ben negotiations, we alsoclosed the border with Armenia. could notcontinue to negotiate to establish diplomatic relations. As we cut-off the Karabakh that was occupied by Armenians. After that aggression and occupation we Armenians attacked Kalbadjar. This was the fifth or sixth region outside upper Upper Erivan. So they left. When we reported the point we reached, they also welcomed it. the suggestedandsawitasa way couldn’tacceptit out but, without instructions from have much difficulty inconvincing our public opinion. The Armenian side welcomed Treatybetween was theonly validdocument Kars and wouldn’t Turkey of we Armenia documents between Turkey and Armenia without naming the Treaty of Kars. Since the Treaty. was theonly obstacle. This bilateral Werefer tothevalidityof suggested to Azerbaijan. determined the border between Turkey, Georgia, Armenia andNakhchivan, that is referencerelationswith was the diplomatic Armenia tothe Treatywhich Kars, of to establish diplomatic relations was 95%ready. The only obstacle inestablishing protocolAnkara. say thatthetextof smoothly.would The talksdevelopedI very encouragement from any foreign power. We notina did it, foreign country, butin diplomatic relations with Armenia. We did it without any third party, without any with my colleague Ambassador Karaosmanoğlu to negotiate the establishment of diplomatic relations with Armenia. When I was incharge, I was instructed together relations with Azerbaijan because the current governments’ initiatives to establish Aliyev’s words: “one nation, two states”. acertain But, damage hasaccrued our relationswith to our Azerbaijan. as you have already seen, the pipelinecameintoreality andbrought anew dimension Armenia will improve in time. This was maybeagoodideabutnotrealistic one. So bilateral relations between Azerbaijan and Armenia as well asbetween Turkey and but through Armenia. Hesaid that this will create interdependence with Armenia and and Elçibey’s preference was that the pipelineshouldnotrun through Georgia or Iran, about that pipeline. The idea of apipelineinitially came when Elçibey was inpower to develop our relations inevery aspect. solution was nomore in the offing. But the countrystabilizedand we found aground stabilized and our relations continued to develop steadily. Pariament andlaterbecame President. After hisPresidency the situationin Azerbaijan But certaincircles didn’t like the progress in Turkish-Armenian relations: The The Armenian side was reluctant to make areference to the validity of the Kars Now, howare our relations with Azerbaijan? They canbestbe described inHaydar We already saw the movie concerning the pipeline,it took us quite a while to bring Although the front stabilizedafter the loss of Kalbadjar. Every hope or peaceful [ 15 ]

CAUCASUS AND AZERBAIJAN CAUCASUS AND AZERBAIJAN “genocide which isahistorical fact”. the “reality of genocide”and that nocommission caninvestigate the validity of Armenian Constitutional Court degreed that the protocols caninno way can question to say the least! As this document was in the process of ratificationalso with us, the documents. And about the commission that will lookinto the historyetc. Itis vague, referenceno tothevalidityof so regretI Treaty bilateral Kars ortovalidother of my deep in ?came outto with the negotiate Armenians And thenthetexts negotiated in Switzerland.) Why accept Switzerland’s mediationeffortsand why a situation when the government accepted the mediation of Switzerland and genocide”. (Thanks to Perinçek’s effortsnow, maybe that law will change.But, this was Switzerland isacountryby the way that considersitcriminal to “deny Armenian negotiations with Armenia aftersome the mediationeffortsby Switzerland. employed in Turkey and they feeding their families backhome. is publicknowledge that there are aboutseventy thousand Armenians who are were allowe to have charter flights to Istanbul.But the border isstillclosed. Today it So this where we stand vis-à-vis our relations with Armenia. And after the decision Now letme turn to more recent times. The current government hasentered into In years that followed there were someloosening of sanctions. Armenian planes [ 16 ] reality! it does notgobeyond a dream. Butitis for the creative minds to turn dreams into interdependency among themselves andin time also with Turkey. For the time being should beable form aBenelux-type cooperative forum, which would create to lessenits dependence on the RussianFederation. immune to territorial claimsisIran! Another importantstep Armenia should take is policies vis-à-vis Turkey, Azerbaijan and Georgia. Armenia’s only neighbor that is relations with itsneighbors. The easy way to achieve this isit to give upitsexpansionist Diaspora inFrance, in USA andin other Western countries,shouldseek to improve its whims ofthe satisfying the much dependson instead of Armenia. But future.Armenia, they soonbecameinstrumental. visits at various levels followed one another. Important documents were signedand This gave us the opportunity to enterinto very friendly andcloserelations. Reciprocal Thomas Goltz introduced him to us) who came to powerand the countrystabilized. There was nostability. Then, thanks to Shevardnadze already (you knowhim,because chaos. collapse oftheSovietin Union, led tothe was Georgia During theyears that What appearsat the surfaceshouldnot deceive any one. confidence of Azerbaijani people that they have entrustedin the Turkish Government. occupation forces from Azerbaihjani territory. haveprotocols damagedthe These withdrawal of clue tothe Armenian any include not since theydiddo with Azerbaijan, obstacle, unless the current government accepts the Armenian allegations. of the Armenian Constitutional Court I do notseeany possibility to overcome that If that canberealized, then the three countries Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan What is the future for the region? As Iseeit, the region canhave agoodcooperative I have to underline that these protocols hada very negative impact on our relations Thank youpatience. for your With Georgia, initially we had a difficult time, because of the domestic situation. because ofthedomestic a difficulttime, had initiallywe With Georgia, [ 17 ]

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