An Interview with Judge Abbi Silver

AN INTERVIEW WITH

JUDGE ABBI SILVER

An Oral History Conducted by Barbara Tabach

Southern Nevada Jewish Heritage Project Oral History Research Center at UNLV University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas

©Southern Nevada Jewish Heritage Project

University of Nevada Las Vegas, 2014

Produced by: The Oral History Research Center at UNLV – University Libraries Director: Claytee D. White Project Manager: Barbara Tabach Transcriber: Kristin Hicks Interviewers: Barbara Tabach, Claytee D. White Editors and Project Assistants: Maggie Lopes, Amanda Hammar

The recorded interview and transcript have been made possible through the generosity of a

Library Services and Technology Act (LSTA) Grant. The Oral History Research Center enables students and staff to work together with community members to generate this selection of first-

person narratives. The participants in this project thank University of Nevada Las Vegas for the

support given that allowed an idea the opportunity to flourish.

The transcript received minimal editing that includes the elimination of fragments, false

starts, and repetitions in order to enhance the reader’s understanding of the material. All

measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. In several cases

photographic sources accompany the individual interviews with permission of the narrator.

The following interview is part of a series of interviews conducted under the auspices of

the Southern Nevada Jewish Heritage Project.

Claytee D. White Director, Oral History Research Center University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas

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PREFACE

It is evident that a keen wit and persistent tenaciousness to protect victims of crime have earned Judge Abbi Silver the reputation that elevated her to her current position as Chief Judge of the Nevada Court of Appeals. She is the first female to hold this position.

Judge Silver is a lifelong resident of southern Nevada. She was raised in Boulder City, where her family was the only Jewish family at the time. Her father was a doctor and eventually the family moved into Las Vegas, where she graduated from Clark High School and then University of Nevada, Las Vegas (1986). Always an overachiever, she worked multiple jobs—waitress, Utah Jazz cheerleader, dancer—while earning her undergraduate degree and then her law degree from Southwestern University of Law, in Los Angles (1989).

In this oral history, Judge Silver recalls being a law clerk for Honorable Earle White, Jr., joining the Clark County District Attorney’s Office and being assigned as the Chief Deputy DA for the Special Victims Unit where she tried more than one hundred jury trials. She mentions other illustrious attorneys who she encountered, from Stewart Bell to Oscar Goodman to her mentor Judge Nancy Oesterle.

Judge Silver came to understand the harsh realities of victims of domestic violence and stalking. Her cases included that of the stalking of comedian Jerry Lewis, Senator Harry Reid and many others. Then in 2003, she was elected to the Las Vegas Municipal Court and in 2006, she served the Las Vegas Justice Court. Then in 2009 and 2014, she was elected to the Eighth Judicial District Court and in 2014 she was appointed by Gov. Brian Sandoval to the Court of Appeals, Department 3. In 2017, she was appointed to the Nevada Supreme Court.

For part of this oral history, Judge Silver is joined by Judge Joanna Kishner. Together they recall growing up together, being Jewish, and graduating from high school together with other notable Nevadans, and their individual successes as attorneys.

TABLE OF CONTENTS Interview with Judge Abbi Silver January 10 & February 7, 2017 in Las Vegas, Nevada Conducted by Barbara Tabach

Preface…………………………………………………………………………………………..iv Ancestral roots are described……………………………………………………………………1

SESSION 1

Joanna Kishner and Abbi Silver talk about their friendship, attending Clark High School; mentions Catherine Cortez Masto and other successful women who also attended Clark High School and how the community is tied together. Mentions attending UNLV, friends from other high schools such as Bishop Gorman, Valley and Bonanza; success of local graduates such as Trevor Scherrer (Mirage Hotel/Casino), Scott Sibella (MGM) and Bill McBeath (Cosmopolitan). The talk about their parents as pioneers of the local Jewish community; activism and participation within the general community; Harmony Letizia’s election as justice of peace, the Mack family, Steinberg family.………………………………………………………………………………………….2 – 5

Abbi and Joanna discuss BBYO, present and past generations of membership in BBYO, Girls State. Naomi, Michael and David Cherry; Alyssa Bergman. Abbi mentions how her father Dr. Frank Silver has touched so many families over the decades. Share stories of Joan Rivers attending Temple Beth Sholom services as well as while shopping at I. Magnins. [Note: Joanna leaves interview for an appointment.]……………………………………………….…………….…..5 – 7

Abbi’s story of Jerry Lewis and representing him in his case against a stalker. Mentions other stalker cases she became involved with, such as John Ensign, Harry Reid, Steve Wynn; expert witness Reid Meloy. Stew Bell. Prosecution team for high profile cases of John Bobbitt and Floyd Mayweather; enjoyment of her work being in the media, on TV shows, experience of working with high profile cases. Bite mark specialist Ray Rawson; challenges of balancing seriousness of her career with humor; mentions Cary Sayegh 1978 kidnapping; Oscar Goodman……………..8 – 15

Talks about her early career work that included: John Momot; Oscar Goodman; David Chesnoff; Steve Stein. Mentions prosecution of Fat Herbie Blitzstein; protective nature of Momot; meeting Michael Cherry. Worked at Caesars Palace as a lifeguard and dancer while in college in 1980s; dream to be a professional dancer; worked in Suzanne Sommers’ show at Hilton; father’s role in guiding her career. Talks about being a Utah Jazz cheerleader; Kareem Abdul-Jabbar; Michael Jordan; other part-time jobs……………………………………………………...…………16 – 20

Mentions her siblings; being an overachiever; maintaining friendships, such as Joanna Kishner. Her admiration of comedian Jerry Lewis; her children’s art and other items that she surrounds herself with. Talks about how she would have pursued dancing career or comedy; thoughts about keeping her sense of humor in check as a trial judge; varied personalities of judges and importance of the judge’s oath taken. Discusses Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg; she and Joanna Kishner being role models; gender bias………………………………………………….....21 – 28

SESSION 2

Speaks of family roots; her father’s Jewish background and matriarchal relationship in Judaism. Talks about being only Jewish family in Boulder City in her youth; her mother’s experiences in Boulder City and traveling to Las Vegas for Jewish education. Move to Las Vegas; attended Clark High School; active in BBYO and BBG; Faye Steinberg and Steinberg family; lived near Our Lady of Las Vegas Catholic Church; David Straus, Heidi Sarno Straus……………………….…29 – 31

Talks about what it meant to be Jewish when growing up. Shares about clerking for and mentorship of Judge Earle White Jr., an early African American judge and Eighth Judicial District Court judge. Describes what she calls the “Freak Team” she was on for the District Attorney’s office (a female Jew, a female African American, an Asian male and a Hispanic male) and goal to prove her capabilities as a lawyer, proving herself to be a hardcore prosecutor in a male dominated career path…………………………………………………………………………………...……..32 – 35

Her thoughts about whether females have it any easier in today’s legal world; toughness women like herself have to have to be respected; story about her female mentor Judge Nancy Oesterle who she met at UNLV. Tells impact of an early jury trial for a rape case; finding her calling; deputy on Special Victims Unit………………………………………….…………………………36 – 38

How she spends her days now on Nevada Court of Appeals, Department 3; differences for her between being a trial judge and reading “cold records.” Gossip that can occur in the legal world; being appointed versus election of judges; application process……………………………39 – 42

Thoughts about raising her children in Las Vegas and changes she has observed over her years here; father getting comps; sharing Jewish traditions. Mentions Rabbi Mel Hecht, rites of passage, and Rabbi Malcolm Cohen. Important role played by Justice Michael Cherry in her career……………………………………………………………………………….……….42 – 45

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NOTE: On January 10, 2017, interviewer Barbara Tabach sat with Judge Abbi Silver in her temporary Nevada Supreme Court office at 200 Lewis Avenue. Also present was Judge

Joanna Kishner, longtime friend of Judge Silver’s.

Judge Kishner’s oral history, also recorded on the same date of January 10, 2017, is included in the Southern Nevada Jewish Heritage Project and is separately bound.

Ancestral notes from Abbi Silver: My mother Elaine’s maiden name was Jacobs. She is an

Ashkenazi Jew; her father came from Russia, from a city called Vinnystia. My zaide

(grandfather) would have said he came from Russia, but now it is known as Ukraine. His name

was David Jacooobsky—or something that sounded like that. The Ellis Island people laughed

and said, “You can’t have a name like that in the US, so now your name is “Jacobs.” That’s how

we became Jacobs. Same thing for my dad’s dad. It was Silver-something and it was chopped to

Silver.”

SESSION 1 – January 10, 2017

Your grandparents were from Russia?

Abbi: Yes. My two grandfathers are both from Russia and then my grandmother, my mother's

mother, is from Russia. Then my dad's mother was an orphan from Ireland. So if you ever saw

the movie "Philomena," it kind of freaked me out.

Anyway, talk about an interesting marriage. I won't go into the whole thing, but my grandfather was Ben Silver, a Russian Jew with no education, and was a butcher and married

Susan O’Connolly, an Irish red-haired blue-eyed lady, and she was Catholic, very Catholic. So

my father is Frances Paul Silver. He thought he was Jewish his whole life until he went to marry

my mother back in the fifties. The rabbi would not marry you unless you were technically Jewish

and you are what your mother is. He didn't know. He had to convert to Judaism to marry my

mother. But he said to me he always thought he was Jewish. My dad always wore a mezuzah. I

didn't know. I didn't know that until I was older. So that's where my grandparents...I'm second

generation American.

Interesting. So what else have we not covered here, ladies, in this friendship and this

parallel universe that you live in?

Joanna Kishner: I think we pretty much have strong ties to community, both Jewish (and)

historical Vegas. If you look at it, it's kind of interesting. I already mentioned about Val Adair

and Kathleen Delaney being one year above us and one year below us in high school and how

Catherine Cortez Masto was our year.

Abbi: Yes. We did pretty good at Clark, huh?

I think it's amazing.

We got some strong ladies coming out of Clark High School, yes, great high school.

To what do we attribute the success of women in Nevada?

Abbi: Well, we were all good friends. We are all good friends.

Joanna: But in a positive sense.

Abbi: Yes.

Joanna: Interestingly, we were all on yearbook, too.

Abbi: Yes. Yes, we were all in yearbook. Was Delaney in yearbook?

Joanna: Delaney was in newspaper. I was with Delaney in newspaper.

Abbi: Oh, okay. See, I forgot that, didn't I? I haven't fully gone yet, have I?

Joanna: She did a little bit of yearbook, but we were mostly yearbook because Kathrine, Jenny

Frank—yes. You were senior editor or photo editor.

Abbi: I was student life. I was the cheerleader. Does that make sense? I was the cheerleader.

Yes, yes.

Joanna: And she was the song leader in high school.

Abbi: Oh, my gosh, I have the picture right here. It comes up on my screen saver because I gave

it to my kids. I won't go into that on the record. It's cute. Just to make them nuts.

Joanna: The nice thing really about this community is as much the community gets criticized for

being forty-ninth in relation for education, we really have historically had very dynamic, very

interesting teachers. I was mentioning Carroll Johnston.

Abbi: Who?

Joanna: Carroll Johnston, our first principal at Clark. I still see him at UNLV games.

Abbi: Oh, that's good.

Joanna: He sits one row ahead of us. The nice thing really about Clark County in general, and I

say Las Vegas, but I would include obviously Henderson and everything as well, is there's

always been a very strong sense of community and I think that was shown at the time we were in

high school.

[Looking at photographs]

So those were important years to you both.

Abbi: Oh, yes.

Both of you have access of, not just the memories, but something physical in your office

space that goes back to [those years and friendships.] That's really cool.

Abbi: Yes, [Clark High School] Chargers.

Joanna: But it ties all the community (together). It doesn't really matter if it went to—well, we all

say it does because we went to Clark. But there's a large group of people who went to Gorman,

mostly on the federal bench. I think it's going back to community. We were very fortunate we

had—

Abbi: Well, I went to UNLV, too. And when I went to UNLV that's where I really met a lot of

friends from Gorman [High School] and Valley [High School], Bonanza [High School]. So it

was like a melting pot back then. Everybody went to UNLV. So you really got to meet

everybody from all the different high schools. I still remain friends with all those people despite

the fact I went to Clark. We are all really good friends and they went to Gorman or they went to

Valley or Bonanza or Western. Some of my friends that I used to hang out with in college, which

blows me away, like Trevor Scherrer, president of Mirage; Scott Sibella, president of MGM; Bill

McBeath, my next-door neighborhood, president of Cosmopolitan. So we all did really pretty

good between Clark and Western right there.

Joanna: But it was really a sense of community.

Abbi: Yes. We all knew each other. And it's nice because now we all know each other. Oddly

enough, we're all in positions of power, many of us. So it's funny because you say, "Well, I know

the president of that hotel; yes, president of Cosmo was my next-door neighbor growing up and

I'd see him at the mailbox in a bathrobe." That's how it was. It was just totally different, so small back then. Actually Vegas was a small town back then.

So you were like the next wave of pioneers, if pioneers can be layered into a history. The

Jewish pioneers were family.

Abbi: I think our parents definitely were pioneers for Jewish pioneers.

Joanna: We had it so much easier than our parents did obviously.

Abbi: Yes, sure, out here.

Joanna: I think so realistically. They opened up a lot of doors or ceilings or however you'd like

to phrase it and then they encouraged us to walk through and break further ceilings. So we were

very, very fortunate. I think it really goes back to our community. Even when you meet people at

a variety of different events, the various activities that I'm strongly involved in, as soon as I say,

"Well, I grew up here," usually you get a lot more support. Like, pro bono, we're trying to talk to law firms to encourage them to do pro bono, we say it's right for so many different reasons and then explain, look, I grew up here and this is part of our community, et cetera. There's always somebody at one of those law firms, "Oh, well, what high school did you go to?" If it's not the high school, then what junior high?

Abbi: I still ask that. Right.

Joanna: So then you get people to jump onboard in doing something for the community and I

think that's positive. This is Jewish oral history, but it's positive throughout the community, but I

think we also are so very fortunate in that we had that community within a smaller community

that has so many different aspects now. Harmony Letizia just got elected justice of the peace.

Her good friend is married to one of my third cousins or second cousins once removed or

whatever it is. It's something close to that. At the same time, her grandfather is friends with my

father and we also knew her parents, not as well because there's a little bit of different

generational aspect. So to have that it's really l'dor vador. We have that generation that's

continued on. The Mason family has done that. The Mack family has done that. The Steinbergs.

Suzanne [Steinberg] Green and I went to Girls State together. I never knew her, because she

went to Valley, as much. But then we met at Girls State and we realized, no, we really had grown

up—she sat two rows in front of me in temple and we didn't know each other that well, but now

we're still friends. Our kids were in track against each other and now we're doing certain events.

It's all very nice. My daughter's in BBYO. I think I mentioned...I keep going back to Ronnie Frost

Tarr, Florence Frost. So it's Florence Frost's granddaughter Aiden Tarr was head of the BBYO

chapter and encouraged my daughter to do it, gave her a lot of mementos of when she first

started BBYO several years before Aiden is back at college. There just was an event last

Thursday with my daughter. She came back from being on college vacation to be back with the

BBYO group with my daughter. Then like the Sachs family, Heather Sachs was there. So you've

got three generations of Sachs family. You've got three generations from ours. You've got three

generations of Frosts. You had Jerry Engel's granddaughter. So you have all these

multigenerational-aspect encouraging people to keep giving back to the community. Even if you

leave for a while, like I did because I wanted to pursue certain academic pursuits, and then come

back, it's a sense of community, it's a sense of heritage and it's a community within a community,

the Jewish community.

Abbi: Oh, I didn't have one. What were we talking about?

The sense of community.

Abbi: It's generational for me. My dad was really out here. I would say a lot of the doctors' kids—it's funny—I see whether they're Jewish or not. We just see a lot of each other.

This project really—I tell people it starts out that the common denominator is Jewish

ancestry, but if you just look at the interviews I have done, you really get a whole history of

this city because it wasn't really segmented.

Abbi: Yes, it wasn't.

Joanna: When Justice Cherry's mother [Naomi Cherry] moved out, he lived in the apartments

owned by my family.

Abbi: My dad probably gave her a hysterectomy. I'm just kidding. I'm just throwing it out there

that more than likely my dad treated her.

But I've talked to (indiscernible). It ties it all together.

Joanna: But it does tie it all together. Then David Cherry is good friends—well, formerly was good friends with someone that I also grew up with that used to be Cantor Bergman's daughter,

Alyssa Bergman. When I left Warner Bros. a few years later, curiously enough, we were at the same law firm. After I left Warner Bros, I went to DLA Piper's predecessor, and Alyssa was in one of our East Coast offices, Alyssa Bergman from Las Vegas. Came back, visited her, boom, oh, my gosh, I know your family. She's got boys younger than I do, so I didn't necessarily know her as well. Now she's at Warner Bros. although I left there and she's been there for a number of years. So it's all a small world.

Abbi: I don't know all my dad's patients. I can't tell you how many people walk up to me and say,

"Your dad saved my life," or, "Your dad delivered my baby." It's countless. It will just be at random places. Everybody knows my dad. So I just couldn't tell you because that's how much.

He just was really big back here back then.

Joanna: Then for my one last anecdote since people love Vegas history, yes, Joan Rivers used to come to Temple Beth Sholom and sit in the row right behind us with a big fur coat. Even if it was

September for Rosh Hashanah, she was there in a fur coat.

Abbi: You know where I saw her? I Magnin and J Magnin, oh, yes, on the Strip. I didn't see her at synagogue. I saw her with my mother shopping. I know this will shock you. It would always be Joan and her daughter, Melissa. And my mom would always say, "Look, there's Joan." Then my mom would be cool, like let's just see what they're buying. Then we'd walk over and we were playing it cool. There was a mutual respect because Joan's from Philly, by the way.

Joanna: Right. But the Jewish entertainers would come to the synagogue if they were here, if

they were performing at High Holidays. So you had a nice kind of...

[Note: Joanna Kishner leaves conversation.]

Abbi: I've got a good story. My mom was at Smith's Food King off Rancho and Alta where I grew up and Jerry Lewis walked in because, of course, Jerry lives off of—I can't say where.

I know where he lives.

Abbi: But anyway, he lives somewhere around there. So he walks in and my mom runs up to him

and says, "Oh, my God, Jerry, do you know who I am?" And Jerry looks at her like she's a nut

and says, "No, lady, please tell me, who are you?" She says, "Well, I'm Abbi Silver's mother."

And Jerry was like, "Oh, my God, I love Abbi." Because, of course, I was one of Jerry's

attorneys—well, I was his only attorney when he got stalked and I put his stalker in prison. The

stalker ultimately died in prison. But I went all over the state, to the legislature, speaking with

Jerry regarding the stalking laws because some of the stalking laws that were strengthened were

from Jerry Lewis who, P.S., is Jewish. But it's just a funny Smith's Food King story running into

another entertainer, Jerry Lewis. It's a good story of my mom’s.

That's a great story.

Abbi: And then he couldn't bow down hard enough. He loved my mother after that. But he

thought she was a complete nut bag when she first walked up to him.

I've tried to get his oral history because I can't get enough of the Jewish entertainers who

have lived here or live here.

Abbi: My sisters, when we were growing up, used to go to his telethon every year at the Sahara.

My sisters actually were in an elevator with Jerry, and so there's all kinds of stories. That's why I

was mortified when my mom said she walked up to him. I thought, oh, my God, no, you did not.

"Yes, yes, I did; I just walked right up to him and told him who I was."

Now, how did you get that job with him?

Abbi: Well, I was the Chief of Special Victims Unit. So what happened is the FBI came in and

said—and I wrote the laws that are on the books on stalking. When Jerry was being stalked, Stew

Bell called me in his office and said, "The FBI is here. How are we going to get Jerry Lewis'

stalker?" Because there were no federal laws that were similar to our stalking laws to stop

somebody. This was in the mid-nineties. So I took the case and that's how I became very close

with Jerry Lewis. I've been to his house. We went to the legislature together. We had a couple of

things changed, one of which was the penalty on how long—it used to be a one to six felony

aggravated stalking. Jerry testified. Even after his stalker was in prison for six years, he came

out, on coming out at the prison. He expired his sentence after six years, the longest he could

have spent. He came right out and started stalking him again.

Oh, my, really?

Abbi: Yes. So we got it changed. We were trying to get a two to twenty in Nevada State Prison

for a conviction on aggravated stalking, but ultimately the legislature passed a law and it was two

to fifteen and it remains on the books. But those stalking laws and stalking orders and protective

orders came about largely in part because of the Jerry Lewis case that I worked with. So I was

able to take that. That's one of my big cases from the DA's Office. If I called him right now...I

could still call him at any time. I don't know if I could get you an interview, but I know—

You could always put in a good word for me.

Abbi: I know I can tell you that when I ran for judge, another really funny story is that I was at a country club having breakfast and one of my good friends came over and said, "Oh, my God, I just got a call for Jerry Lewis saying that I should vote for you for judge." I started laughing and

I go, "Oh, good." He had just turned fifty-five. He was an ex-cop. In fact, he ended up going to

Nevada State Gaming Control Board and he was a police officer. He played volleyball with me.

So he liked to think he was more my age. But I said something like, "Oh, good, all of my senior calls went out then for the robocalls." But Jerry did a taping for my robocalls for judge. I can't tell you how many people—it went to mostly seniors. My kids, they don't know who Jerry Lewis is. It's a certain age and above that know who Jerry Lewis is. Of course, he's beyond famous.

He's a legend. But he really does well with the senior groups, of course. He's a legend. So when most people get a robocall, they hang up. They don't want to vote for so-and-so. They hear, "Hi, it's Jerry Lewis, I want you to vote for my good friend Abbi Silver for judge. She is the best."

He's always been there for me.

That means a lot.

Abbi: Yes. It's pretty cool.

That is.

Abbi: And he gave me things, too, at his house. He gave me a pen. He gave me a CD. He gave me a bunch of little trinkets and he goes, "One day these are going to be worth something, Abbi.

Keep these."

That's sweet. That really is.

Abbi: Yes. Kind of a neat thing he said—he begged me—I remember him crying and looking at

me during his case and said, "You have to make sure you put this guy away, Abbi, you have to.

I'm so scared, not for me. I'm not afraid of this guy. But I am afraid for my little daughter." His

little daughter who was like in elementary school at the time. I guess that was around—I'm trying

to even think. I can't remember years. But say it was mid-nineties, about '96. So how old is that

little child now? I ended up putting him in prison and he died in prison. He have so happy, Jerry.

He was scared to death. This guy came to his house with a gun and he was a mental, crazy...He

was truly the definition of insane. He was scared of him, again not so much for himself, but

really for his child. I'm really glad to say I think today, the year 2017, he didn't have to worry

about his little daughter all these years that I was able to put that stalker away and he's able to

live comfortably without the fear of this person.

So were there a series of stalker cases that moved that—

Abbi: Oh, yes, that I did. I did John Ensign's. I put his stalker away. Harry Reid's stalker away.

Jerry Lewis' stalker away. I put Steve Wynn's stalker away. I put our former Sheriff Moran, his

stalker away. Then just countless other people's stalkers away. I did all the stalking cases at the

DA's Office. All of them went to me because they were almost like a lot of little cases put into

one because it's a course of conduct. So you don't just have one crime, you have like a hundred

crimes. You have a hundred phone calls. You have a hundred notes left. It's just a lot of

evidence. So they're really big cases as far as for evidence for prosecuting. It wasn't just one day

it happened, like a robbery. You go to a 7-Eleven, sadly it happens. It was over sometimes years.

Jerry Lewis' was over years. Harry Reid's and Ensign's were over years. Steve Wynn's was over

maybe a two-year period. So every case is different. All of them are men on men. Isn't that weird? Yes, they weren't women. But I've had women that stalk men. There's every variation.

But the high profile ones ended up being men with severe mental issues or disease that were

stalking based on whatever came into their brain that didn't make any sense to most people, but

they decided to stalk these public figures, which is how stalking laws came about, from "My

Sister Sam" out of California with that actress. Those are really how the stalking laws came

about was from that young lady.

I remember that case.

Abbi: She was really the pioneer. It was that horrific instance of murder, of somebody who just

saw a star and stalked them and killed them that all of these stalking laws came about. My cases

were very similar to it makes no sense why from my public ones. A lot of my other ones were

domestic, violence related, estranged relationships. But these happened to be really interesting

because they were much more...In fact, in Jerry Lewis' [case] I happened to be watching "Where

Are They Now Music" or "Behind the Music VH1" or something like that and I saw this stalking

expert on Madonna's cases on all these high profile L.A. cases and I went to Stewart Bell and I said, "I want to get this guy." He's out of San Diego and his name is Reid Meloy. He's a psychologist there. He's high profile. All these crazy cases he's testified in. So we were able to hire him for that case, for Jerry Lewis'. He really did it more for the publicity because I had to get him down on the price of what he generally charged per hour as a stalking expert. He testified in some other, maybe it was Steve Wynn's case, too. I'd always get experts because there were mental issues and really explaining some of the stalking behaviors. But they're really interesting cases. That's how I got to know Jerry or some of these people, Steve Wynn.

Well, yes, you're really protecting them.

Abbi: Yes.

Were there other highlights of your career?

Abbi: Oh, John Bobbitt, I prosecuted him for beating up his stripper girlfriend. And Mayweather,

I convicted Mayweather like three different things, Floyd Mayweather. I was the original

convicter of Floyd Mayweather when I was a prosecutor. So I got a lot of the high profile cases,

obviously.

You didn't shy away from it.

Abbi: I loved it. The higher the profile, the better. I loved being on TV. That was fun. I wish

some of those things were taped. I have some tapes. I have them at home and we recorded them.

I think they're on VHS. They're boxed away somewhere. They're somewhere. I'm still on

"Investigative Discovery," some really high murder cases. Who was just saying to me, "I was

watching 'Investigative Discovery' and I heard your voice?"

Is that a TV show?

Abbi: Yes, "Investigative Discovery," it's on TV. It was a high profile murder case I did. I was

like, "Oh, which one?" Because a couple of them have been on there of cases that I've done.

That's a big deal. Or "America's Most Wanted," I used to be on quite a bit on my murder cases.

Are there any low points in your career that you wish you could have won or done over

again? It sounds like you were pretty successful.

Abbi: Well, you can't really regret. My mom would say, "It's bashert; what is meant to be is to be

and it was supposed to have happened that way." So I don't think that there's regrets. Looking

back, gee, should I have done something differently? Well, yes. But I really look back at my

career and I am beyond grateful and thankful. What a fun job I have, putting bad people away.

My cases were always like—I was like the fun of every cocktail party—"Hey, tell me another one. What, John Bobbitt?" Or I'd get a case where somebody cut off somebody's penis or bit somebody's penis off. I had that many times.

Ray Rawson, our state senator, he was my forensic odontologist in a couple of bite-off-penis cases. So I always had fun stuff to talk about because real life is stranger than fiction. You don't make light of serious, obviously, rapes or murders, but some crazy stuff did happen in between. You don't make fun of any serious victimization, but there are always light-hearted moments. Then, also, many of the horrific—I mean, we saw the worst of the worse,

death penalty after death penalty case or a child murder or a baby murder. So there's nothing

good or funny or anything that comes out of anything. But the experience with those families, I

will say this, I don't regret any of that part of my career at all because I'm still friends with so

many of my victims. I just got a gift yesterday from a victim of stalking. I just took it home last

night and they brought it to me for Christmas. Since 1992, she has brought me a Christmas gift

every single year. I would have had it in here; I took it home last night.

You made a difference, Abbi.

Abbi: Well, I guess. That means so much to me. I forget that and some of the little people that

I've touched. Then sometimes I've met little people who are now big people and I'll say, "Do you

remember me?" And they'll say, "No." It's happened a couple of times. And I thought, good, good, because these have been victims of child sexual assault or child abuse, horrific, sexual assault. It will be ten or fifteen or twenty years later and I'll say, "Do you remember me?" And they'll say, "No." And I'm really, really super happy on that one because then I think, gosh, they put it behind them; yea, they're living their life. But to the parents—another group, their son was murdered in 1990, and I was just saying something before the recorder went on about something on that murder case, and I just was texting them the other night. They were just wishing me well because it was in the newspaper that I became chief judge. They've come to every investiture I've had and they're always, always, always there for me. They've watched my career go. But to think that they stand behind me when I stood behind them, like, wow. So it's kind of cool.

One case that comes up every once in a while in the Jewish community was the disappearance of a kid from Temple Beth Sholom. You would have been a kid.

Abbi: The [Cary] Sayegh case. Oh, I remember it well. That's a horrific case, yes, horrible.

That was never solved, right?

Abbi: Was it the Carpet Barn, is that it, the owner of the Carpet Barn?

Yes.

Abbi: Yes, I was here then. Oh, my mother and father were mortified. It's horrific. They did finally find the body, right?

No, I don't think they did.

Abbi: Yes, I thought they did. I thought they found the body. I thought they found it decapitated.

Or am I thinking of the John Walsh one?

That might have been the John Walsh one, yes.

Abbi: Maybe. So they've never found that body?

Yes. Anyone who has told me are that story...That scared everybody.

Abbi: That was a huge case. Yes, it did, it scared everybody. Yes, we were here then. We were in

Boulder City. Obviously it's changed through the years, but talk about hardly any crime. I grew

up never locking my door, getting in strangers' cars. Everybody knew everybody. It just was a

different world back then. I rode my bike everywhere. So it was just totally different. Boulder

City was really different than Vegas even. But we all remember that. Yes, very sad. I was a kid

when that happened [in 1978]. That was a big deal. He was taken off the school, wasn't he?

Yes.

Abbi: Yes, that's it. He was taken off the school.

Oscar Goodman talked about it.

Abbi: Yes. There's all kinds of rumblings that maybe sadly it was a get back at the parents or

something. Is that what people believed?

There were a lot of different theories on it. Oscar was pretty sure he thought he knew who

did it.

Abbi: Did he?

Yes. Of course,—

Abbi: Nobody really knows about—

--nobody knew for sure, right. They were never able to prove anything.

Abbi: Right, right, right. Well, there's a difference between what they thought, and probably, I'm

sure, Goodman had a good insight.

Well, there's something. I worked for Goodman. Not really for Goodman. What happened is my first year in law school when I came back, I worked for a criminal defense attorney named John Momot who works on the third floor of 520 South Fourth Street, and the second floor was Goodman and Stein. They shared a case; it was criminal defense and it was the largest methamphetamine ring in the history of Nevada at that time, bust. John Momot, who I worked for as an intern or law clerk, summer law clerk, he had one defendant, and Goodman and

Stein had the Crutchfield brothers. I was so lucky to go downstairs all the time because they had

a big law library. I remember I was like twenty-one. And the cart lady would walk by and ask you, "Do you want some tea? Do you want some coffee? Do you want some soda?" And I thought, man, have I made it. I'm working in Oscar Goodman's office. I got the cart lady asking me what I want to drink. I thought, this is the life. So I used to laugh.

Then I used to go against Oscar. When I was a DA, I would go against Oscar [Goodman] and [David] Chesnoff and Steve Stein that I used to make nuts. I used to make all of them nuts because they were defense attorneys and I was this young prosecutor, later on.

But when I worked for John Momot, "Fat Herbie" Blitzstein was being prosecuted by the feds. It was so exciting because these criminals would call and say, "Abbi, if you help get me out, honey, I'll take you to an island on the Caribbean." Here I was like twenty-one. I lived with teddy bears and stuffed animals at my parents' house. They had no idea who they were talking to.

I sounded cute at twenty-one over the phone, but...Then John Momot—do you know who he is?

No.

Abbi: Well, he's Italian and he's from New Jersey and he's like...I'll just do an impression…

So a client would walk in and they'd look at me. And here I had this long hair to my butt.

I was twenty-one. I didn't look half bad. I was a professional cheerleader, if I didn't tell you that.

Yes, yes.

Abbi: Throughout college.

I saw your picture.

Abbi: No, that was high school. I was a professional cheerleader for the NBA.

Oh, a professional cheerleader, oh.

Abbi: Oh, yes, I danced at Caesars and at the Hilton. I forgot those things. That was in college.

So some of these riff-raff would come over and start talking to me, and John would grab

them and say, "You see her, Vinnie? You don't look at her. You don't touch her." And Vinnie

would say, "Come on, Johnny, she seems nice." "She's a nice girl; you don't touch her; you don't

look at her; you understand me?" And Vinnie would say, "Yeah, sure, Johnny, sure, I won't talk

to her; it's okay." This is what would go on when I was working there at Momot's office because

he represented so many—like I said, "Fat Herbie" Blitzstein, all of them. It was the mob.

Were you ever frightened by these characters?

Abbi: Not with John there I wasn't. And John at the time was dating a Lido showgirl and she was

beautiful. She would come in and she was like six-foot-whatever, gorgeous showgirl. That's what

I first worked for. That's a fun fact.

That is true Vegas. That's the Vegas that everybody wants to hear about.

Abbi: And Mike Cherry was next door doing the fire litigation for the Hilton. That's how I met

Mike Cherry. That is how I met Mike Cherry. So Mike met me when I was twenty-one and I was working for John Momot, who, again, was on that case with Oscar. That's how I met Oscar

Goodman and Steve Stein and Chesnoff and all them.

So when people ask you about growing up or even working around this cast of characters—

Abbi: Oh, see, I forgot about that. I worked at Caesars Palace as a lifeguard all through college.

By day I was a lifeguard; at night I danced there.

No. Really?

Abbi: Yes. Yes.

What show were you in?

Abbi: It was a show in 1984 and it mirrored the Olympics. It was just a summer show because, obviously, I went to school. Of course, I was covered. I was a professional dancer as far as acrobatics and jazz and tap, ballet. I took ballet since I was two. I love dancing. In fact, I started

with—I was going to do Suzanne Sommers "Bal Du Moulin Rouge" at the Hilton and that would

have required me to be up until like one in the morning, and my dad said, "How long do you

think a dancer's career is?" Because, remember, my dad is an OB/GYN. By the way, his clientele

were dancers, strippers, and, oddly enough, Marilyn Chambers.

I remember that name, yes.

Abbi: Yes, yes. Anyway, my dad said, "Abbi, what if you get hurt? Even if you don't get hurt,

your career is until twenty-five; that's it, and then you're too old. You have to go to school." He

wouldn't let me do that show.

But, oddly enough, my choreographer sent me to another audition and I thought—again,

it was a show because I would do little shows here and there. After I made it I found out. I got

the part. I went with full stage makeup and character shoes. And they said, "Oh, congratulations,

you are a cheerleader for the Utah Jazz." I was like, "What, I'm a cheerleader? I don't want to be

a cheerleader again." "Yes, you're a cheerleader for the Jazz." What happened is two years I was

a professional cheerleader for the Utah Jazz.

Now, how did that come about? I was in Las Vegas. Well, Utah had just left New Orleans

and they were just starting in Salt Lake and they weren't getting enough money in the following.

So they played half of their home games in the Thomas and Mack and a half of their home

games at the Salt Palace. So I would go back and forth to the Salt Palace in Utah and I cheered at

the Thomas and Mack. So when Kareem Abdul-Jabbar made the most points in NBA history, I

cheered at that game.

How cool is that?

Abbi: Pretty cool. Little known fact, boom. It's on YouTube. You might be able to see my hand,

I don't know. No. It is.

That's fascinating.

Abbi: Yes. I have pictures, still pictures, but I tried to just get pictures to show my kids, like, hey,

I could bust a move. Apparently it's like a Disney vault; you can't get to these things and it only comes out every fifty years. I don't know. But I can't get my hands on it. If anybody can get their hands on the footage of me dancing that would be great. I met Kareem. I remember introducing my mom to Magic Johnson. I'm sure my mom was there for that one.

Oh, yes. That's awesome.

Abbi: Yes. Oh, and then my friends tell a funny story. This is a good story. My friends from high

school, who ultimately went to UNLV with me, would say, "Don't you remember you gave us

those front row tickets to the Jazz game and then you begged us to come watch you dance? And

we were like, 'No, Ab, we're sick of you dancing.'" And then I said, "Please, you don't understand. There's this new guy; his name is Michael Jordan. You've got to watch him play."

And I gave them free front row tickets to watch him play with this new guy that they never heard of called Michael Jordan.

Tell me they did come.

Abbi: Oh, they went. And they laughed that I begged them to come and I gave them front row free seats if they would just come to watch me dance.

Did you get paid for doing that?

Abbi: Twenty-five dollars a game.

That was it?

Abbi: Oh, yes, big money. Yes, I did. But you made little side money doing things at the convention center, wear your uniform and be a Jazz girl and greet people; that kind of thing.

Now I look at what the professional cheerleaders are doing, calendars or on the web or whatever, modeling. Who knows? I'm not saying it would have made a lot of money, but I could have certainly made more than twenty-five a game. I could have made more. That was one of my jobs.

I'd have four jobs on any given day, working and going to school.

So you were going to school. You were doing cheerleading.

Abbi: Yes, I was a bank teller. I was a lifeguard. I was a cheerleader. I was a hostess. What else did I do? Oh, and I was a receptionist and like billing clerk. All of that in college.

Amazing. What did your siblings end up doing? You said, what, you have four siblings?

Abbi: My brother works for the county. He was a project manager over at the airport. Now he's over at Water Reclamation and he was at UMC. He did work for some casinos. He does more accounting and he does like regulations and stuff like that, regulation enforcement. And then my

two sisters are homemakers.

So where are you in the hierarchy of all that?

Abbi: I'm the third. I'm the baby girl.

I'm always curious about it how it works out.

Abbi: I know. I seem like I'd be the first child from what I understand, but I'm the third. I think I was an overachiever because nobody paid attention as a middle child. That's my theory.

Plus, I think there must have been something interesting about all of you being thrown

together in that same class at Clark; that you were kind of feeding off of each other's

energy. I can't help but think that you get a group of kids who are working hard—

Abbi: Yes, super motivated.

Yes. That that just helps.

Abbi: We're really good families. We're all still really close. In fact, we were all just texting,

"Oh, I love you; I love you, too," from this get-together we had. They come from all over the country and we always meet at Christmas or the holidays, whatever. We always meet one night out.

Do you have a special place you like to meet or does that move around?

Abbi: It moves. It moves around. Yes, this time it was some tiki place. It was fun, though. We had so much fun.

I'll bet.

Abbi: Yes, it was good seeing them. But, yes, we had a good group. We have good families, just really nice people. It was a good community. It still is.

It really sounds great. It's terrific.

Abbi: Yes. That's what I want to instill, like that closeness, with my kids. I always make some of

them, who I won't name who you know that have already been brought up—I'll say, "Oh, that

boy was so mean in high school and he turned out to be a really nice man." He was mean or he

teased us or whatever. That's just the way it is, right, high school and junior high.

Part of growing up.

Abbi: Yes, yes. And it got brought up again two weeks ago. "You were so mean in high school

and look at how nice you are now."

I don't think that ever changes from one class to another. Any other stories you want to

share with me? This has been great.

Abbi: Those were some good ones.

That really was. That was great.

Abbi: I forgot all those. Joanna has been hogging my vibe. Joanna's always so serious. You can

tell I'm kind of the funnier one. Well, there's no doubt I'm the funnier one.

You balance each other out.

Abbi: Right. She's very, very serious. So I'm funny, light-hearted, kind of witty.

Does that help with the kind of cases you...?

Abbi: Yes. But my mom and dad are funny. My mom is really funny. She is a total character. So

I think she instilled that humor. And my kids are really funny and I see that in them, too. That's innate. Either, I think, you have it or you don't. I don't know, where did it come from?

We ask all the time. That's one of the reasons I thought it would be interesting to interview someone like Jerry Lewis is that sense of Jewish humor, seeing the irony in life.

Abbi: Yes, yes, and self-deprecate.

Yes. And willing to take those risks and be the brunt of the joke.

Abbi: Yes. And he hasn't responded?

I can't get a response from him.

Abbi: Shoot. Tell him you’re Abbi. No, I'm kidding, don't. I'm calling for Abbi Silver. He might

answer. No, I'm kidding.

I'll vote for her.

Abbi: You'll vote. Please, give me the interview.

What's the sign down here? "Meaningful, outstanding, trusting, honest."

Abbi: But he's great. Just to listen to him, I really appreciate it now. He's amazing.

Yes. He's got a great story. When you get to be that age to be able to reflect back on your

success and what the world has brought you and what you've brought to the world, it's

really heartwarming.

Abbi: Amazing.

Yes, yes. I was starting to ask about this sign down here. It says, "Meaningful, outstanding,

trusting, honest, excellent, respective." Is that you?

Abbi: From kids. I know. It's shocking, isn't it?

What kids, your kids?

Abbi: Yes, yes, yes. You'll see there's no diplomas. It's just like a kid sign and kid art, child art.

Well, I think it's wonderful. You have to encourage it. It's important.

Abbi: That's what makes me happy in my little room here while I'm reading all day long. That's

what it's really all about. It's really not about another plaque or an award or an accolade, isn't it?

It's really about family and our own families truly and sticking together with that family. And

what means more than family to any of us? It's our number-one thing, right?

Yes, you're absolutely right.

Abbi: And also where exactly do I put that besides right there?

I think it's great. That's really super. Complete with flowers and a smiley face.

Abbi: Yes, really cute.

That is really sweet.

Abbi: Really sweet, yes. I used to always have my room covered with stuff that victims would

make me, but now...It's been a long time. I've been a judge now for almost fourteen years. So all

those things have been taken down, replaced, but I keep them. I have everything.

If you hadn't been in law, what would you have been in?

Abbi: Oh, gosh, hold on. I had an answer for this. Well, dance for sure. I would have been a dancer. There's no doubt. I would have made more of dancing. How, I don't know. Where would

I be right now? It wouldn't be pretty. It would be some dive bar somewhere, pathetic. Yes, I love to dance. Dance was always my first love, for sure. After that I don't know. Comedy maybe because I think I'm funny.

I can see you doing that.

Abbi: Comedy. I'm always told, "Oh, my gosh, you should do a "Judge Judy" show because you're so funny."

You have a great personality.

Abbi: I have to honestly shut my mouth half the time because people don't realize how much—I

will say things and I really have to watch it because it's not obviously what they would expect a

judge would say, but it's funny.

Does that happen when you're sitting on the bench? How do you make it—

Abbi: It's happening in my head. I crack myself up in my head because it would be inappropriate

on the bench. Obviously in district court when you're a trial judge, it would be really

inappropriate, almost anywhere. If you don't have a jury and it's law and motion and there's not

probably the general public and it's just the attorneys and something funny goes down and it's the

right moment, I've said many things that people have laughed at. But it really has to be

appropriate. I'm not saying inappropriate choice, I'm saying inappropriate timing. Timing is

everything. So most of the time it goes off in my head. Something pops up in my head and I

don't repeat it.

You swallow a lot of that.

Abbi: Yes. I have some good stuff up there. Things come out or people do something and I think...Or something happens funny at trial. But you can't say anything obviously at trial.

So I couldn't help but think of when you watch TV shows...They may have the quirky

judge on the bench. Is that kind of personality possible in real world?

Abbi: Well, judges come in all shapes and sizes and we're all different people. But I will say this:

When you take this job and this oath, you're set to the highest standard, obviously, and the

people put their trust in you. So you must act at all times professional. Whether I'm in the

elevator, here, or on the bench or just with you here, I mean we're always appropriate. When

we're out in public and my kids want to start fighting, I look at them and I go, "I am a judge; do

not embarrass me." There's always a certain way that you must act. I think that's important and

you should always respect the position. So I really don't like it if a judge does not respect the

position. If they do something that is demeaning or diminishes what we do, I don't think that's

funny at all because it's so important what we do. We have such an important role in people's

lives.

But, on the other hand, we are humans and sometimes that will show through. It's not

always a bad thing, compassion, for example. I had to bite my lip when I was in district court. It's

not as much up here because we're reading a hardcore record. But when you watch somebody cry

on the stand and talk about their darkest hour or their moment or the taking of their loved one and what their life is like now, it doesn't matter what case it is, we can all relate and to have that compassion. I honestly have to bite my lip not to cry on many things. It's very hard not to show your emotion, but it's very important for us not to show emotion because, of course, either side, you are fair and impartial to both sides. So that's somebody's witness on either side. And you certainly can't have the jury thinking that it affects you in any way because the jury is always watching you. So when you're a district court judge, you really better sit up straight and make sure nothing you do on that bench is anything less than judicious at all.

So, yes, am I fun-loving talking to you, talking about family, talking about growing up in

Las Vegas? Yes, I'm myself. In fact, when I was an attorney, I would laugh and say I look like the Quaker oats girl. I was very, very conservative. I dressed conservative. Right now, look at my nails. I always wear a French manicure. I have silver sparkly, very Jewish nails right now.

They're very Jewish. I'm very happy about that and proud of it. But I looked a certain way. My juries would always say when I'd come back and talk to them, "Oh, my God, you're so different than the four weeks we just watched in court. You're so different than that."

So I don't know if that gives you a hint of when you're on, you're on, and you better be a hundred percent professional. When you're off—I'm not saying I'm unprofessional. But, hey, I'm a person. I can laugh at something. I'm funny.

You're off the clock.

Abbi: You're off the clock and you can be yourself. But off the clock in the sense of you're never on the clock when you're a judge, but you can be a person. Honestly, nobody when I'm on the outside ever thinks I'm a judge, nobody.

No one would guess you to be that.

Abbi: And I never tell anybody because people will act differently if they know you're a judge. I

never tell anybody I'm a judge at all because I like to see how people treat me, just me, Abbi.

They don't have to know. I'm just a mom. I'm just some lady out in the community. So I always

like to see how people really are. The minute somebody finds out you're a judge, they act

differently. So I never tell anybody and they would never guess it. They just don't guess it. I don't

fit the mold.

I understand. It's one of those professions.

Abbi: Yes. Well, you generally think when you shut your eyes, an older, elderly gray-haired man

with some glasses, very distinguished, talks slow, white. You have a certain idea through the

movies and characters of what they look like.

I think about Ruth Bader Ginsburg [RBG] when you said that.

Abbi: She said that too?

Well, no. She came out and she made some political statements during the past year, and

she's like, "Well, I shouldn't have said that." It's that kind of self-censoring in the public world. At the same time, I have a T-shirt with her image on it. How many Supreme Court judges have their...? Have you seen the notorious RBG tee-shirt?

Abbi: Oh, I hadn't seen that, no. That's funny.

My daughter gave a baby one to all of her friends.

Abbi: Oh, that's funny. She's certainly a trailblazer that one.

Oh, yes.

Abbi: She's amazing. And she doesn't look the part.

I see that happening locally and you and Joanna and other people are such role models for that. It will be interesting to see what happens next.

Abbi: I don't think that our children will have the same idea of what a judge looks like, put it that way. They're going to have a very different idea of what a judge looks like, which is nice. By the way, of everything, with every career hopefully.

Hopefully, yes.

Abbi: I think so. I feel like it. But we'll see.

Yes, we will.

Abbi: Nobody will say to them, "You don't look like a judge; oh, you're too young to be a judge;

oh, you're too pretty to be a judge." Although now I don't mind those. The older I get I'm like,

oh, keep saying that. I'm good with those now. But when you're younger...I became a judge at

thirty-eight. I'd get, "You're too young to be a judge." And I'd be like, "Really? Last I checked

JFK became president at forty-three and nobody said that." It was definitely a woman thing, I

thought, definitely a woman thing and how you look.

Oh, yes. And the gender bias you don't feel as much or you still feel a gender bias?

Abbi: Oh, sure.

Well, maybe that will evaporate more. We'll see.

Abbi: We can only hope.

We can only hope. We can only keep working. Well, I am going to thank you very much.

Abbi: Thank you for coming and talking with me.

This was terrific. I'm glad Joanna suggested that I interview you both. This was perfect,

perfect.

[End of recorded interview]

SESSION 2

This is Barbara Tabach and I am sitting with Judge Abbi Silver in her chambers. This is

February 7, 2017.

We're going to go back and talk about your upbringing in Boulder City. Give me

your family background, connect it with the Jewish ancestry as best as you can, and we'll

kind of go from there.

I think I said my mom was Jewish, Elaine Jacobs, and my father, his mother was Catholic and

she was Irish. She was an orphan raised by nuns. So his name was Francis Paul Silver, because my grandma, Susan O'Connelly, married Ben Silver, a Jew, back in like the twenties or thirties.

My dad was born in '34. And so he assumed he was Jewish growing up, but it wasn't until he

went to marry my mother in 1957 that the rabbi said, "Well, you are what your mother is," and

he actually had to formally convert to Judaism. He said he was shocked. It was news to him that

he wasn't Jewish; he assumed he was. But because of that he converted and then my mom and

dad were married in '57 in Philadelphia.

So he was familiar with the traditions.

Sure.

He was raised that way.

He really was. Being raised in Philadelphia, all of his friends were Jewish. So he never, I guess,

thought of himself as anything but Jewish. But because of how the laws were or whatever, the

rabbi—

It's a matriarchal relation.

Yes. I don't think they're quite as—maybe they are, because I know my mom used to say, "You are what your mother is," and in the Bible that is true. But my other three grandparents were all

from Russia, Russian Jews.

I was brought up in Boulder City. We were the only Jewish family in Boulder City. One

person asked my mom, "I thought Jews have horns." They had never heard of Jews. So my mom thought it was very important that we go to Temple Beth Sholom and go to Hebrew school every

Sunday. Back then it was very hard to get back and forth from Boulder City to Las Vegas. You had to go straight down Boulder Highway, hit every single light. It took like an hour. But we always went and I went to Hebrew school probably up until I was like seventh grade, maybe. It was right about what would have been bat mitzvah time, but I didn't get bat mitzvahed because my mom said, well, she didn't get bat mitzvahed; it wasn't important for women to get bat mitzvahed, just men to get bar mitzvahed. So my brother had a bar mitzvah. But we studied

Hebrew together because we're only about two years apart. So we went all the time and I always knew obviously that I was Jewish. My mother made sure we knew exactly who we were.

When I moved to Las Vegas, I went to Clark [High School], obviously with Joanna

Kishner. That's when I started BBYO [B’nai B’rith Youth Organization] with Joanna. We were in BBG [B’nai B’rith Girls] and we had so much fun. Faye Steinberg was like a second mother to us. In fact, I just saw Debbie Steinberg this weekend. I just saw her at a Super Bowl party on

Sunday. I just said, "Say hi to Suzi for me," because Suzi and Debbie were cousins, Suzi and

Debbie Steinberg. They lived right behind the synagogue off of Oakey, off 15th Street down there, and I used to go spend the night at their house. They'd have parties. That's how I know all the Steinbergs including Faye. I was very involved with the other teens during that time period and we just had a blast. So it was very small, Las Vegas. I went to UNLV. Even though they all

went to Valley and Gorman [high schools], I went to Clark, we all became very close friends.

Everybody knew everybody back then.

So it was a tight community.

Yes, it really was.

And the neighborhood around Beth Sholom had a lot of Jewish families.

Yes. I lived over behind Our Lady of Las Vegas, ironically a Catholic church, but there were

plenty of Jews behind that Catholic church. David Straus was one of my next-door

neighborhoods. In fact, I just saw him at the same party. It was Abbie Friedman's party. I just

saw him and Heidi, Heidi Sarno Straus. Of course, we all grew up in that area, which is kind of

Rancho Sierra Estates, Rancho Bel Air area. But David Straus was actually on my street and he used to just terrorize me. I don't mind formally saying that on the record. He terrorized me and we never let him...He terrorized everybody. He was a terror. But we're so glad that Heidi straightened him out.

How did he terrorize you?

Oh, I won't go...I know that the statute of the limitations has run. He's really a wonderful person now, but he was not so wonderful as a teenage boy. He tortured us. He'd tease us and stuff like that. He just was a real piece of work. We love him now, but we hated him back then.

You may have mentioned this. In Boulder City there wasn't a Jewish community at that time.

No, there was nobody, not one. I don't know if there is a Jew, I'd be—is there a Jew there now?

I don't know.

I doubt it, but maybe.

That's interesting. The Jewish community stayed here.

I really felt like, oh, wow, somebody else like me. Now my kids do that too. My one goes to Hyde

Park and she says, "Mom, I met a little girl; her name is Shoshana and she's Jewish." She's so

excited when she meets another Jew because apparently we're far and few between in the public school system here in Las Vegas. She's very excited when she gets one on any of the cheer teams or school.

Isn't that interesting?

Yes. She really is like, "Oh, Mom, I'm so excited. It's funny because that's how I felt, like, oh, my gosh, another Jew; somebody else like me. And it made me feel good.

What did it mean to be Jewish when you were growing up here?

Well, it was a sense of belonging that's for sure, like family, very much. Honestly all of those kids are still my good friends. We still keep in touch. Ted Rosenstein, Joanna, myself, the

Strauses, we're all still very close to this day.

That's really nice.

Yes.

So your high school memories were pretty positive.

Yes.

You would have graduated from high school what year?

Eighty-two.

By then the integration of the schools had already taken place, all the civil rights issues of

Las Vegas were gone?

Oh, yes, I believe so, yes.

Yes, yes, because we were kind of late coming to that.

Oh, yes. No. I think everything was...Yes.

You didn't go to the sixth grade centers or anything like that?

No, I didn't go to a sixth grade center. I grew up in Boulder. I didn't leave until the end of my

tenth grade year. So I actually attended Boulder City High School for two years and Clark for

two years.

But you did go to work for Judge Earle White, Jr. I'd really like to hear about working as a

law clerk for him; who he was; lay the background for that and tell me more about that

experience.

Well, he was, I think, the second African American judge probably in the history of Nevada. He was number one in his class at Howard University. He had been a public defender and he was

just a real champion for equal rights. He hired me. I was a woman, twenty-four. I looked like a

little girl. He believed in me and gave me that opportunity, which I'm very grateful and thankful for. I worked for him for a year. It's like an apprenticeship; you're the judge's right-hand person.

You prepare the judge for everything on the bench, all the motions behind the scenes. You help

draft the orders; that type of thing.

What was really neat about him is when I went to go interview for the position of district

attorney, he said, "Now, you let me know. If they say anything to you about being a woman, you

just let me know and I'll take care of them." And I thought, oh, my gosh. I didn't want to start

World War III; I just wanted to get the job. Sure enough, when I had gone up there, they said,

"Are you planning on having any kids?" Which obviously you can't say anymore, because they really didn't want a woman that was going to get pregnant and take maternity leave. They just didn't want that. I kind of filled a quota, but they wanted somebody who would fill the quota without taking maternity leave, I guess.

I was initially—which I didn't bring this up before—I was initially put on what I called the “Freak Team,” which was: I was a female Jew, there was an African American female, there was an Asian male, and there was a Hispanic male on the team. We were the only four deputies

that I guess weren't Caucasian, white, probably LDS that worked there at the DA's Office. I

called it the “Freak Team” because we weren't allowed to do trials. All we had to do was going

to the outlying jurisdiction. So if you're a prosecutor, you want to be in trial. The outlying

jurisdictions were the cow counties, like Logandale, where we really fit in quite well, I'm sure,

and Mesquite. Yes, we fit in great in these places. There weren't as many cases and also they

didn't track into a trial district court. I felt like that was really not fair because I wanted to be a

trial attorney.

I came at the same time two other male white, Caucasians came into the office. One

happened to be, like I said, LDS. I mean, they were treated like kings. They got to start on

murder cases immediately. I eventually had gone to my bosses and I said, "Look, I want to do

trials," and I noted the differences. That particular boss got really upset and was screaming at me

and said, "You want to file something, file your complaint," and really screamed in my face, got

me upset. I didn't know what to do. I thought I was going to get fired. But the next day I was

switched off that team. I must have struck a chord. Maybe he was afraid of a suit.

When I got put on the next team, I had to be, I want to say, twice as rough and tough as

any male. I had to really prove myself. So I did; I became a hardcore prosecutor. Then I became their pet. They loved me. I got every high profile case. Obviously, look where I went from there.

But I really had to speak up about being pigeonholed into a place where I didn't want to be pigeonholed. I wanted to be this great prosecutor and do trials. That was very difficult.

I absolutely know I had to work twice as hard as any man walking in that office. Like I

said, twenty-four, my hair was down to my butt. It was the eighties. I had huge hair, huge. It

almost took up another part of my body. It was huge. Everybody thought I was a court reporter

when I walked in the courtroom. They just didn't take me...I wore very nice suits. Of course, my

mother being the Jewish proud mother, I had these amazing suits from Neiman Marcus and I

looked amazing in my suits, but nobody took me serious because of my age and my gender and, I

guess, just the way I looked. I was a little fancy, a little Jewish fancy for everybody, because I

liked...do your hair, do makeup. I always had long nails, as you can see here. I'm a fancy glittery

girl. I don't make any excuses anymore, but I had to tone it down.

Now, do you think that you were on that cusp of women having to prove themselves

especially in the legal world?

Oh, yes, no doubt about it. For trials I definitely toned it down because, of course, I wanted

people to listen to me. I didn't want them to look at my hair or my clothing or my makeup. So I

looked like a Quaker Oats girl. I wore my hair back in a bun, clear nail polish, just a band, not

even a diamond. I wouldn't even wear a diamond. I'd wear a band. I always wore skirts, never

pants. So I just did what I thought would look the best as far as conservative trial attorney as a

prosecutor. But in the office, when I wasn't in trial, I would wear some really colorful beautiful

suits from Neiman Marcus. I really liked pretty things, and so I didn't care. But it was tough for

people to take me seriously. I had some men that would say—and I still remember—would say a comment or two. I didn't take anybody's crap though; that I can tell you.

Has that changed in general, do you think?

No, I don't think so. I try not to judge like that even though I'm a judge. No, I try not to because I know that what's in people's heads, you can be a very smart and savvy person despite whatever you may look like on the outside. But I try very hard not to judge a younger female. I think it's much harder for them than a male. How can it be different? It's the same. Women are the toughest on women. That's why I really try to not do that. Women are tough. It was the women in the office. I was married at the time. They just assumed I had slept my way to the top. How

else could I have gotten there? Isn't that terrible?

That is terrible.

Yes. And the funny thing was, the guys that I'm telling you about, which will go unnamed, were exactly that; they were busy outside. I mean, they were single and they could do what they wanted, but it would make your hair curl, their stories. But here I was, I was married, I had been married, been with my ex-husband; I was with him twelve years, since I was nineteen, and they just assumed. I heard all the rumors. They were very hard on me, and it was the women. Men weren't so great either, but women were very tough, like the secretaries.

So were there any mentors for you, female mentors or male mentors even? You mentioned

Judge White said he'd go to bat for you.

I'll tell you along with that story, I have a female mentor. Her name is Judge Nancy Oesterle. I love to tell this story. I met her in UNLV. I was told in class that day that we were going to meet a news reporter and a lawyer and that they'd give us a little speech and then they would take questions. A man walked in with a nice suit, dark suit, and I assumed he was the lawyer. Then here came this gorgeous blond, long blond hair, curly, ringletty, big green-blue eyes, and like a big fancy pink suit, like "Legally Blond," just opened her mouth and, boy, did she sparkle. I assumed she was a news reporter. Well, of course, I assumed wrong like everybody else. She was the prosecutor. I just adored her. Do you know, she saw me with Judge White; she took me under her wings. She really helped out to where when I came up to the prosecutor's office, every time I thought something awful happened to me as far as discrimination, Nancy would always have a better story for me. We became great friends and ultimately I became a judge on the same bench with Nancy. We're still very close to this day, very close. She's retired now, but we're still close to this day.

Oh, that's a wonderful story.

Yes, that's a good one, huh?

Yes. Now, do you remember the first case that you had to try, the first words that come out

of your mouth—or maybe not the first words, but how you felt that first trial?

Well, I think I had mentioned to you before that I had a case where I had—I was going to be a

corporate attorney and make a ton of money and I ended up going to the DA's Office thinking,

well, I'll just get a few trials and go make money.

But my first case that they handed to me for jury trial was a rape case and it was an

acquaintance rape and the girl was kind of from the wrong side of the tracks. She and a friend of

hers, an acquaintance, he came over to just do drugs and he ultimately raped her. None of the

guys in the office wanted the case. They thought it was terrible, terrible like not worth a trial.

They all walked around with badges and guns and they liked robberies and murders and that kind

of thing.

But what happened is I brought this young lady in on a Sunday night pre-trialing her right before the Monday jury trial. I had never met her. When she was describing the rape, she threw up in my office. I've had hundreds and hundreds of rape cases since that day. I never had a victim throw up describing the rape. It had such an impact on me I couldn't believe it. I completely believed her, of course, and I felt empathy for her, and I was able to portray that I believe to the jury. Ultimately I got a conviction and he got three life sentences.

When they read that verdict, she was in the courtroom. I came back around and I gave her a hug. She was sobbing and she couldn't even catch her breath. She just whispered to me, "Thank you." That was when I said—I know it sounds so sappy, but it's really true. I really knew that was a turning point in my life and my career because I had this special gift of gab. I have a

natural ability with juries that I didn't know I had. I am a people person and I'm able to relay stories, which are unfortunately crimes. I was able to help this young lady who couldn't help herself and give her back some dignity that had been taken from her. That's really when I knew I had found my calling.

I ended up becoming the deputy on Special Victims Unit, ultimately the chief of that unit.

That's how I took all the domestic cases; it wasn't cool; it wasn't what anybody wanted. All these guys wanted all these other cases, cab driver murders or robberies, high profile that way. They didn't want the baby cases. They didn't want the shaken baby, beaten babies, sexually assaulted child, abused child, physically abused child, rape victim. That wasn't their thing. I really found my niche because I felt so sorry for them and I had been given such an incredible life that I'm so lucky. I never saw all this adversity until I was on that unit. I never had gone to Child Haven. I didn't know children lived in little bunk beds like fifty at a time that were unloved or not cared for and abused. I didn't know there was a world out there. I grew up with a great mom and dad.

So to be able to give them back something and be something for them, their friend, it really...I still to this day know that the stuff I did on that unit will be the greatest thing I've ever done in my life.

I can see that (in your face). I can hear that (in your voice).

Sorry. It really is, still to this day. I'm out of it now. It took its toll doing those cases personally.

No. I can appreciate how hard that is.

I gave my life to that for a lot of years. But I remember; I never forget them.

And then to just maybe bring you out of that, to bring you to where you are today, how do you—I'll pause this for a second.

That's all right. Sorry.

How do you get to spend your days now? What a contrast this must be to be a judge.

Yes, yes. No, it's good now. I did all the emotional stuff. Being a trial judge—now I'm an appellate judge—being a trial judge and watching victims cry and ask you to put the abuser away forever and also having to take into account that family as well, which everybody is a victim in these cases, whatever criminal case, I did my time. It's very hard to sit up as a judge in trial or sentencing and listen to all that because it's so emotional. I would bite my lip because you can't sit there and cry. You can't. But you're a person. But you can't show that. You have to just be...You get a lot of BOTOX, a lot of BOTOX for that. I bite my lip and then I just do what I need to do.

But now as an appellate judge, we read a nice cold record. Sometimes something will get me when I read it, but at least I don't have to see the person shaking and crying as I'm hearing the testimony and it's not as gut-wrenching, I guess. So I think my life right now is much better selfishly because I don't have to deal with that. Of course, we have contracts and we have sad family court cases over disputes, child custody, but it's not all I hear is murder, rape and abuse.

But I would imagine that your background made you a better candidate to be a judge.

I think so. Well, obviously being a trial attorney makes you a better judge. Certainly nothing is shocking you at trial. If you've been there and done that you can make rulings. You have to, quickly, extremely quick. It's second nature. I can hear a couple of words and know it's objectionable versus somebody that's never done it. If you look at it academically, it can take you a moment to really think of what's the right answer, sustained or overruled.

So your typical day, are you in the courtroom?

No, not anymore. My typical day, today I woke up at four thirty, five. I read for hours before I

even come into work because I'm a morning person and I can't sleep. So I read a lot and I get so much done before seven, eight o'clock. By eight o'clock sometimes I've done four hours. So it's nice because then I...Now I'm not jumping on the bench at nine. Now I come in and I keep working and it's usually nine thirty, ten, and then I work for the rest of the day. It's pretty lonely, though, too, as a judge.

How is that?

Well, today I happen to be going to lunch, but I almost never go to lunch. I usually just eat at my desk and then go home. Because if you are seen with lawyers, people think that you're friends with them. Which, by the way, one of the lawyers I'm going to lunch with is one that I'm talking about that I started on the first day.

Oh, really?

Yes, a nice young man that I said we started, and he got pushed one way and I got pushed the other. So we're still friends today.

That's good.

But I don't go to lunch because if somebody sees you out, they just assume you're for them. They don't realize that you have—we were both law clerks together in 1989. Of course, nobody talks about a pending case, but we can't help that we know the same people or we talk about old times, whatever.

So judges are judged.

Yes. You'd be surprised. Back when the R-J had comments, another judge and I had gone out and we met for some appetizers right after work. We happened to be at a restaurant and we saw another attorney and we said, "Well, hello, how are you?" Somebody saw us and wrote to the R-J that they had seen us talking to these attorneys, like we were somehow in the pocket of these

attorneys, and all we were doing was saying hello. When you're a judge, people look at you a certain way and you have to always make sure that you look judicious and that you're representing the state of Nevada properly; that you look the way you're supposed to be as a judge, fair and impartial.

Now, you were appointed to your position?

I was originally appointed [by Gov. Sandoval] to this, but I was recently elected.

Now, judges here are elected. I remember asking—

Judge Kishner.

And I also asked Judge Cherry about the idea of electing judges. Do you think that's a good process?

I like it. I do because then I can depend on me and it's not depending on somebody else. It's my efforts. But everybody is different and there's pros and cons to both. So I don't know what the right answer is. I do like elected just because I think that generally the people get it right. Do they sometimes? Yes. But are appointments sometimes wrong? Yes, just as much. So at least it's fair to all people versus only people who might be more political than others. I don't think my appointment was. I think, of course, look, I made it through a judicial selection committee out of like thirty-eight people. So, of course, I like my appointment. But I think it was my sixth or seventh time up for appointment and I finally got it.

Do you put your name out that you want to be a judge of a certain type or does it just come to you? How does that usually work?

Oh, no, what happens is unfortunately we had a judge pass away, we had a judge retire, and then there's an open spot for their seat. So what happens is the governor has to appoint for that.

And he sort of taps people on the shoulder and says—

No, no, no. You put in an application. It's like hundreds of pages long, saying everything you've

ever done in your life. They look at everything you've written. So then it goes through a selection

committee. The committee is made up of state bar members, lawyers, non-lawyers, and also the

Chief Justice of the Nevada Supreme Court heads it. So I think there's like ten people on it. You

go before them. They've read all the applications. They make three recommendations to the

governor and the governor picks one of the three.

I never knew what that process was like.

A lot of people really like that process. Obviously, it worked for me this last time. But I like

both; I'm happy to be elected and appointed.

Just as a wrap-up to both of our conversations: living in Las Vegas, what do you think

about raising your kids here and having lived here and seen the changes? And you've

experienced it in such a fantastic array of ways, from your teen-year stories to today. How

do you describe living in Las Vegas to others?

I love it. I think it's the most exciting city in the world and I can't imagine really living anywhere

else. When I was younger sometimes I'd be like, "Oh, I wish I lived in California," but I really don't. People come from all over the world to come to our city. It is that exciting. It was that exciting back when I was growing up here, too. It was less known, but how many people can say they went to the Bacchanal Room for homecoming? I went to the Don Rickles Show for homecoming. My dad got me a comp. My dad was a high roller, so he got a comp at Caesars.

Bacchanal is where they pour the wine over the shoulder and the skimpy dresses with the cones on their heads. Then I went to the Don Rickles Show and he made fun of me after homecoming dance. So it's so cool. When you tell other judges around the country when I meet—I met at

MYU last year all the appellate judges. "What? You're from Vegas? That's neat." Or they just think we live in hotels, which is kind of funny. But it's really great. I love it. My kid just said the

other day, "I love Las Vegas. I just want to live here. I don't want to live anywhere else." Home

means Nevada. Home means the hills. It's really true. We just love it here. I know my kids do.

How do you share with your kids the Jewish tradition?

Well, of course, we do all the celebrations for the holidays, Passover, and I go over Judge

Kishner's house, of course, because she's a good cook and I can't cook. My mother used to kick

me out of the kitchen. So I'm sorry that I can't cook. I'm a pretty good baker, but I can't cook.

Judge Kishner cooks great. I bring my kids over and they get to see us with our tradition and the

Seder. Of course, Hanukkah, we light the Hanukkah candles.

Like I said, they know that they're Jewish. It's important for me for them to know who

they are and that they have a sense of community here. They know who their rabbi is. The rabbi

knows their names. Rabbi [Malcolm] Cohen knows their names.

Unfortunately, my uncle passed away a couple of days ago. Rabbi [Mel] Hecht is going

to do the funeral tomorrow. I'll see him. He married me in 1989. He always comes to all my

investitures. He actually speaks at all of them. So we're very close to him as well. It's good to have that sense.

He's a name that really pops up in a lot of those rites of passage.

Yes. He did my brother's bar mitzvah. He did my mother's funeral. He's always around. He did my wedding. Tomorrow I will see him again, unfortunately on those circumstances. But there is

something good about seeing him and, of course, comforting because he's our guy.

More recently, just because my kids had gone to Hebrew school at Temple Sinai, I'll tell

you they love Rabbi Cohen and the fact that we were at Springs Preserve and he walked over and

he knew each of my child's names. I told some other Jewish women at this at a break-fast one day and they were so impressed. They were just, "Wow, isn't that neat that he knows who they are?"

He's amazing that way.

Yes, he is.

He really is. I was impressed with him. I had only met him once briefly and the next time I ran into him, he remembered my name and everything about me from that brief conversation.

Isn't that something? I know. And it makes you feel so good when somebody remembers your name. He's just such a wonderful man. So we're really lucky here.

That's great. Anything else you'd like to share with me that we didn't talk about either time?

I don't think so.

There weren't any burning questions—not questions, but stories that you felt you left out...Let's see. I wrote down you were sworn in January fifth, 2015.

Oh, I've just become the first Chief Judge at the Court of Appeals. Justice Cherry just appointed me as the Chief Judge of the Nevada Court of Appeals. So, I'm the first female Chief Judge, and

I'm the first Jew Chief Judge of the Court of Appeals of Nevada. So it's historic, I suppose, for both reasons. It's even more sweet, because as you can see from our picture up there, it was

Justice Cherry that gave me this wonderful opportunity. He's obviously been at all my investitures and he's always been the one who speaks for me. So it's wonderful that he feels enough for me that he would do that for me.

I had the great fortune of meeting a lot of wonderful people through this project.

Yes, he's great.

I think we covered the parts that I wanted to add.

I hope it was enough. Sorry about getting so emotional over my stupid—

No, don't ever apologize for that. We're all humans. Thank you so much, Abbi. I

appreciate it.

Oh, no, thank you for coming in again.

[End of recorded interview]