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A S I N G U L A R ro CITE TALKS WITH PHOTOGRAPHE R JULIUS S H U L M A N

n bis seven decades as an architectur- So when I went to see the Neutra bouse, because I liked what he was doing and I recount many of those in my book. al photographer, Julius Shulman has house, I took half a dozen photographs and I liked him personally. He was 7 created a body of work matched by with my vest-pocket camera. I had the ordered to be sympathetic, even though I Cite: ion were talking to some Rice •inly a select few, Though best known for camera mounted on a tripod, did some had to agree with him about having a architecture students about Charles and bis definitive record of early California lRaphael Soriano. seriously. I used every photo [ took and b.ul one slight crack. Our windows in the Gregory Am, and R.M. Schindter, produced pictures that coda) are still studio are ten feet square, big glass Shulman: Invention is the right word. Shulman has spanned the globe in search being used. Now, when I saw the Neutra plates. Nothing broke. No separation Everything they did was an invention. of memorable buildings. Admired for bis house, it didn't dawn on me what it was. between walls, columns, steel frames. Vi 1 (Charles Lames was a remarkable indus- natural sense of dynamic symmetry, bis li was a modern house, but I didn't come respect Soriano as an architect. trial designer, graphic designer and pho- feeling for light, and his down to earth away with any thought that, wow, it's a tographer. I've always said publicly that approach to bis craft. Shulman has influ- great modern house. 1 had never thought Cite: You've worked with so many distin- 1 alius was genuinely a Leonardo da enced whole generations of photogra- about it. I had never met an architect guished architects, which of their build- Vinci type of person. Lames could do phers who hare followed him. His work until the end of that week, when Neutra ings are most memorable to you? anything. I le was brilliant. What a mind. is feature,I m A (Constructed View: The saw the pictures. 1 went over to see him And he could express himself to students Architectural Photography of Julius on Saturday, March fifth, a very fateful Shulman: I don't think of the buildings so and to corporation presidents equally. Shulman by Joseph Rosa and the recent day. He wanted to know, are you an much as I do the people. I mention tn one And Ray was great in her own right. autobiography Julius Shulman: architectural student? Are you a student part ol my book Julius Sl.ndm.in: They were an ama/ing couple. Architecture and Its Photography. Last of photography? How did you achieve Architecture and its Photography, I said, < htober, Sbidman visited Houston to these pictures? But it's a natural associa- here I was working among die giants ol Cite: In your lecture at the Museum of deliver a lecture as f>art of the Rice tion in my mind to make good composi- the architectural world. And I was more Line Arts you showed your photographs Design Alliance series Changing Hocus: tions of whatever I photograph, whether impressed by the people than I was by of a very early Frank Ciehry house. And Photographers View Place. White in it's a landscape, or a picture of a build- their work. The result was, for example, Gchry wrote the introduction to your town, he visited with Nonya Grenader ing. And mind you, this was the first when I met Walter Gropius .n Cambridge recent autobiography. and Danny Samuels of titc and offered modern house I'd ever seen. The term in l % 3 , we spent a whole morning in his reflections on bis long career. "modern" hadn't entered ever in my lite. office talking not about architecture, bui Shulman:Yes, he mentions how we began It was a house. It appeared strange to me, about other people. I especially recall our acquaintance in the 1950s. I le was Cite: li has heeii said that you came to and I had never seen such a house before, conversations with frank Lloyd Wright studying ceramic design at the University architectural photography by chance. In 'let the compositions were very valid. during a week at Talicsin West. I remem- ol Southern California under Glen l^ifi, you were taken by a friend to ICC ber saying to Wright — the second c\,\\. I 1 likens. 1 likens said to Cehry, "Your the Kim I louse m Los Angeles, designed Cite: Neutra then introduced you to think, we were having lunch — you know ceramic forms are \crv beautiful. You Mr. Wright, I've attended many architects' by Richard Neutra. What is your memory other significant architects such as R.M. slumld think about studying architec- conventions, and often the scuttlebutt, the of that event.- Schindlcr, Gregory Ain, and Raphael ture." I le then invited Ciehry to see his conversation between meetings, is about Soriano. During your career you came new house that Sorriano had designed. other people. And you're the subject ol Shulman: It was quite scary, and I'll tell fn know so many architects, how did Gerhy went to see it, met Sorriano, many conversations. And in most cases you why. Just before that visit, I had been you select the architect to design your and then and there decided what he they say, oh, he's a ... they don't quite at Berkeley, and had taken pictures own home? wanted to do. call you a bastard, but the> call you bel- around the campus with my vest-pocket ligerent anil arrogant. And he sort ol camera. I took photographs 01 some of Shulman: When t got my property it was Cite: Commenting on your work, archi- chuckled, and I think he was taken aback the old classical buildings of the 1^4.1, and after the army in I S>45, I was tectural historian Esther McCoy said that by anyone daring to be so open. We hail University of California campus, which to dreaming about talking to Scbindler and your major concern was always the light. a ver> wonderful one-to-one relationship me wen attractive as .1 photographic Gregory Ain and Richard Neutra anil You've photographed everywhere, not from that day. So he asked questions, we statement. I sold those photographs in the Soriano. And I thought, hey, why don't I jus) California. How do you adapi 10 talked. I le asked me partly about that campus bookstore for $2.50 apiece. I get these architects together some night the changes? belligerence thing, and he said that those was able to develop the prints at night in and form a consort mm? It was ridiculous, people who made such comments didn't the kitchen, with a little portable enlarger but I was naive, and of course I dropped Shulman: (Laughs.) That's a question that even know him. It's sad, he said. I met 1 bad brought from Los Angeles. So I it quite quickly. Anil then 1 thought, well, comes all the time. In my book most ol the men who were prominent in became a photographer without realizing who should 1 have to design my house? I that world, most of them are long gone Photography 0/ Architecture and Design. thought Soriano was a wonderful, cre- it. I needed to improve, but I was training now, but I carry away their memories. I have a series of photographs showing myself. am 1 man. Anyway, Soriano designed my the Paul Getty estate in Sutton Place, continued on page 2s 24 s p r ( a I I l " '

PHOTOS BY JULIUS SIIULMAN

Case Study #8 (Eames House), 1958, Pacific Palisades, California. Charles Eames, architect. (Pictured.) f I?

A Far left, top: Gonzalez House, interior, 1972, Houston. Karl Kamralh, architect. Top left: Gonzalez House, exterior, 1972. Far left, bottom: Charles Lawrence House, interior, 1972, Houston. Charles Lawrence, FAIA, architect. Bottom left: Charles Lawrence House, exterior, 1972. t>99 I i p f I n g 25

Singleton House, 1960, Los Angeles. Richard NeuIra, architect.

Kun House, 1936, Los Angeles. Richard Neutro, architect. 2(i % p i i n g I i •» 9 «» i T f

Boulder Dam, 1936, Boulder, Colorado.

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The Cathedral, 1977, Brasilia, Brazil. Oscar Niemeyer, architect.

Catholic Church, 1967, Atlantka, Uruguay. Eladio Destag, architect. i ') i M I i p r i n g 27 C11 iM-

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- 1 •nMIWLviJlVU W " . B.v JV^VM Greene House ("Prairie Chicken"), 1963, Norman, Oklahoma. Herb Greene, architect.

Below: Julius Shulman house and studio under construction, 1949, los Angeles. Raphael Soriano, architect. Below: Sleeves Residence, 1959, Brentwood, California. Frank Gehry, architect.

"" - M M , 2S I P I i n I * "> »> I I L"'

t otUitUMd from fugr 1 i color prmts. Then I would take a color Cite: You've indicated you like the taken by the space. You seemed to like it. London, and I also have a series of pic- slide tor my lectures, a Mi millimeter participation of the architect. tures of the home of the Molson family in slide. You could make slides four by five Shulman: Oh, yes. Why not? It felt good. Canada. The houses are thousands of also, but 1 shot directly On Kodachrome Shulman: Oh, 1 love it. Especially in the I don't try to observe technically. This is a null's apart, but I show with the pictures 6-4. People say to me, "Why don't you try days when Polaroid was involved with problem ot many critics who write, and that the exposure was exactly the same - l-'uji film?" or whatever else. The differ- photography. How nice to slip in a four- architectural professionals, if you don't fM at a I 5th of a second with a red filter. ence it makes is when you project a slide by-tive sheet ol Polaroid film into mv mind. They take things too seriously. Do I can remember that because it's my lite, on die big screen. Some ot the pictures in camera, and pull oft the paper, and have architects have a sense ol humor? No, it's my vocabulary. So there's your my lectures are 40, 50 years old. They go some beautiful black and white image. they don't. Sometimes I come into a answer. I did the same thing when I went way back. So what difference does it And that's where I would discuss the room, and think, this is exciting, or to South America, which is in the oppo- make what kind ol film it was? Hut you composition with the architect. The charming ... that's all. site- direction. Or when 1 worked in pick up the technical aspect. You should architect would look at the picture, look Japan. It's a fallacy. Even the Eastman know your film and then apply that at the building, and the sensible ones who Cite: Speaking about humor in buildings, Kodak company, in the little hooks they knowledge, using u ,is successfull) as knew about composition in their own and the incapacity of architects to express publish for amateurs and whatever, possible, as intelligently as possible. work would say, "What would happen if humor - the one period when architects always say, well, light's different. I dis- you moved your camera here?" and I did make an attempt at that, the period agree. I ight is light. The sun is the sun. Cite: Atid the black and white film you would look and say, well, you're right. of post-modernism in the I^NOs, led to We have only one sun. So far. Very often they were right. What is it that your total disenchantment with architec- happens when an architect says to me, ture at that time. Gte: McCoy noted that you hardly ever Shulman: Tri X. I began with Lasttnan "Oh, you know better than we do. Co ahead and do it your own way." I could, had to go back to take another shot. Double X film, which they stopped mak- Shulman: What's amazing about post- but that's not the point. It was the enjoy- ing. In their desire to make high-speed modernism, tor the sake of another label, ment of the conversation, of discussing Shulman: Not "hardly." I never went film, I'asrman has stopped making (heir is that the results of this period portrayed these kinds of issues. Neutra was the back. All over the world, wherever 1 trav- best film. Lverythiug is speed. I'he) made not a client's structure, house, whatever other extreme. I le insisted on having con- eled. As I jokingly say, people call me infrared film, which I used extensively. kind of building it was, but portrayed an trol. That's all right. Whatever idiosyn- one-shot Shulman because 1 take one neg- Lastman Kodak did stories on my exercise on the part of the architect. It crasies we had, it was okay. It was part of ative. Well, actually two transparencies, infrared photography in their commercial was a wasteful exercise. one (or me anil one for my client. I never magazines. Hut then they changed that our lives. And we did perpetrate this very remarkable architecture. bracket my exposures. film to a high-speed film. I hey compro- Cite: Would you say that architecture mised the quality of the film as it used to has recovered yet, to be worthy of Cite: And you never use a light meter? be. It was a slow-speed film, but for Cite: Yon take this challenge ol recording photographing? architecture it worked fine. architecture very seriously. In the Intro Shulman: No. 1 had a light meter in duction to your autobiography, you say, Shulman: Well, I believe it's changing. l^.tft, when I began my professional Cite: You were in Houston in the 1950s "The photographer, therefore, assumes a More and more Students I've observed all work. After a lew months I gave it up. It and again in the 1970s to work for role of tremendous responsibility in over the country are beginning to turn was useless. I was leaning on it like a architects such as McKie and Kamrath reporting literally, as a communicator. away from the complications ol post- crutch, and I didn't need it. I knew the and Caudill Rowlctt Scott. Your photo ot The mind, the dexterity, the ability ol the modernism, again for lack ot a better light, and I knew how to create use of the the Charles Lawrence I louse [page 24, far person with the camera can achieve the label. You shouldn't try to label architec- light, as I sther McCoy mentioned. And I left, bottom] is an example ol the distinct vehicle by which the image of architec- ture. But that's why contemporary work, used il to advance the photography. A relationship you see between the inside ture is transferred to the publication and modernism, is such that it doesn't require meter wouldn't help. and the outside of a building. the people ot the world." Most people a definition. It's there. It stands there as will not see most buildings. Some ot an entity. And therefore, the public has to Cite: Not to get too technical, but you Shulman: Now, people have commented the buildings you've shot don't even learn to observe it. It's like the detail ol mentioned in your lecture that you used about |my dividing the Lawrence I louse exist anymore. Neutra's Singleton house Ipage 251. It's three types of film: black and white film, photo| in the middle. I did it purposely, only one relatively minor element in the color negative film, and color slide film because I wanted that wall of glass inter- Shulman: That's the |oy ol photography. photography of the entire house, but it's all the time. ceding the composition to be powerful, to When I was working on Julius Shulman: the picture that grasps the impact of what show ih.ii inside and outside were bal- Architecture and Its Photography, I architecture can prevail upon to entice Shulman: First I would take the black anced alike, yet each ol the spaces were reviewed my archives with my editor, people to have a more intelligent outlook and white picture. Then I would change respected. So that to me was a very Peter Cossel. He took back to Germany on the profession ol architecture. the lighting to apply to a color interior, important picture. with him 1,000 photographs; he then using a blue Hash bulb, before the days ol eliminated a number, so we have 500 in Cite: After hi years as .m architectural strobe lighting. Hut I would try to ever Cite: The Gonzalez House by Kamrath the book, I believe. Hut it's rewarding to photographer, you remain busy. What are cise control of the lighting so that I'm not seems similar — the dialogue of inside me that, after 62 years, this new book \oiu upcoming projects? going ro have Hat, washed out lighting. and out. and A Constructed View by Joseph Rosa I he secret of my photography has always will go hand in hand, and they should Shulman: 1 have five more books that I've been to recreate the forms, the structures. Shulman: That is one ol my favorites, bridge any possible gap which could exist planned with the publisher, Tasehen. I'm of a building, interior or exterior So I because ot the lighting, first of all, we in the work. working on cycles of 20 years now. I sup shot a color transparency. Then I took a allowed the sunlight to penetrate. I wait- pose I'm working towards [the age of| color negative often, because from the ed until the sun could penetrate the living Cite: When we walked in the Museum of 120.... • color negative you can make high speed room so ] didn't have to add light. line Arts lor your lecture, you were