COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SENATE Official Hansard

THURSDAY, 28 AUGUST 1997

THIRTY-EIGHTH PARLIAMENT FIRST SESSION—FIFTH PERIOD

BY AUTHORITY OF THE SENATE CANBERRA CONTENTS

THURSDAY, 28 AUGUST

Petitions— Census ...... 5889 Uranium ...... 5889 Australian Broadcasting Corporation ...... 5889 Repatriation Benefits ...... 5889 Australian Public Service ...... 5890 Native Title ...... 5890 Human Rights ...... 5890 Paper ...... 5891 Constitutional Convention ...... 5891 Darwin to Adelaide Railway ...... 5891 Notices of Motion— Live Sheep Exports ...... 5891 Textiles, Clothing and Footwear Industries ...... 5892 Privacy Legislation ...... 5892 Legal and Constitutional Legislation Committee ...... 5892 Migration Regulations ...... 5892 Fitzroy River ...... 5892 Notices of Motion— Proposed Joint Select Committee on the Australian Republic ...... 5893 Tomahawk Cruise Missiles ...... 5894 Textiles, Clothing and Footwear Industries ...... 5895 Committees— Selection of Bills Committee—Report ...... 5895 Order of Business— Government Business ...... 5897 Migration Regulations ...... 5897 General Business ...... 5897 Notices of Motion— Economics References Committee ...... 5897 Order of Business— Legal and Constitutional References Committee ...... 5897 Government Business ...... 5897 National Competition Policy ...... 5898 United Nations Working Group on Indigenous Peoples ...... 5898 Uranium Mining...... 5898 Australian Workplace Agreements ...... 5898 Leave of Absence ...... 5898 Committees— Community Affairs References Committee—Extension of Time .... 5898 Mr Michael Doohan ...... 5899 Mr Geoff Nicholas ...... 5899 Indigenous Education (Supplementary Assistance) Amendment Bill 1997— Transport Legislation Amendment (Search and Rescue Service) Bill 1997— Health Insurance (Pathology Services) Amendment Bill 1997— First Reading ...... 5899 Second Reading ...... 5899 Multilateral Investment Guarantee Agency Bill 1996— Second Reading ...... 5901 In Committee ...... 5910 Constitutional Convention (Election) Bill 1997— Consideration of House of Representatives Message ...... 5911 Multilateral Investment Guarantee Agency Bill 1996— In Committee ...... 5929 Third Reading ...... 5931 International Monetary Agreements Amendment Bill 1997— Second Reading ...... 5931 Carriage of Goods by Sea Amendment Bill 1997— CONTENTS—continued

Second Reading ...... 5935 Broadcasting Services Legislation Amendment Bill 1997— Television Licence Fees Amendment Bill 1997— Radio Licence Fees Amendment Bill 1997— Second Reading ...... 5935 Distinguished Visitors ...... 5936 Questions Without Notice— Human Rights ...... 5936 Tariffs ...... 5937 Salary Packages ...... 5938 Car Manufacturing Industry ...... 5938 Petrol Prices ...... 5939 Cooma: Public Sector Jobs ...... 5940 South Pacific Cruise Lines Ltd ...... 5941 Anti-Dumping Inquiry Process ...... 5942 Millennium Bug ...... 5943 Telecommunications ...... 5943 Commonwealth Immunity from State Laws ...... 5945 Austudy: Fraud Investigation ...... 5945 Education: Indigenous Students ...... 5946 Youth Allowance ...... 5947 Answers to Questions Without Notice— Firearms Buyback ...... 5949 South Pacific Cruise Lines Ltd ...... 5949 Committees— Economics Legislation Committee—Meeting ...... 5952 Membership ...... 5952 Taxation Laws Amendment Bill (No. 3) 1997— Consideration of House of Representatives Message ...... 5952 Ministerial Statements— White Paper on Foreign and Trade Policy ...... 5952 Committees— Corporations and Securities Committee—Report: Government Response 5955 Public Works Committee—Report ...... 5955 Textiles, Clothing and Footwear Industries ...... 5956 Bills Returned from The House of Representatives ...... 5986 Committees— Community Affairs References Committee—Report ...... 5986 Legal and Constitutional References Committee—Report ...... 5988 Public Works Committee—Reports ...... 5990 Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade References Committee—Report: Government Response ...... 5991 Documents— University of Canberra ...... 5993 Committees— Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade References Committee—Report . 5994 Adjournment— Women ...... 5995 Conference for Older Australians ...... 5995 South Australia: Leader of the Opposition ...... 5997 Kimberley Region ...... 6000 Alice Springs to Darwin Railway Line ...... 6002 HMAS Sydney ...... 6003 Documents— Tabling ...... 6004 Consideration ...... 6004 Questions On Notice— Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission: Appeals—(Question No. 576) ...... 6005 School Closures: Victoria—(Question No. 630) ...... 6007 CONTENTS—continued

Native Title—(Question No. 648) ...... 6007 Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission: Funding—(Question No. 654) ...... 6008 Shark Bay World Heritage Area—(Question No. 677) ...... 6010 School Funding—(Question No. 686) ...... 6011 Minister for Primary Industries and Energy: Media Monitoring Services—(Question No. 708) ...... 6011 SENATE 5889

Thursday, 28 August 1997 2. The Senate votes to maintain the existing role of the ABC as a fully independent, publicly funded and publicly owned organisation. 3. The Senate oppose any weakening of the The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon. Charter of the ABC. Margaret Reid) took the chair at 9.30 a.m., and read prayers. by Senator Bourne (from 169 citizens). PETITIONS Repatriation Benefits The Clerk—Petitions have been lodged for To the Honourable the President and Members of presentation as follows: the Senate in Parliament assembled The petition of certain citizens of Australia, Census draws to the attention of the Senate the fact that To the Honourable the President and Members of members of the Royal Australian Navy who served the Senate in Parliament assembled. The Petition in Malaya between 1955 and 1960 are the only of the undersigned shows: Australians to be deliberately excluded from eligibility for repatriation benefits in the Veterans’ That the current practice of destroying the Entitlements Act 1986 (the Act) for honourable Census is denying future generations an invaluable ‘active service’. Australian Archives records show and irreplaceable resource of data on medical, that the only reason for the exclusion was to save historical, social, scientific, and demographic money. Members of the Australian Army and Air factors. Force serving in Malaya were not excluded, and the Your Petitioners request that the Senate should: costs associated with the land forces was one of the Request the Government to review its current main reasons for the exclusion of the Navy. An policy of destroying the Census; and support a injustice was done which later events have com- proposal to retain the census forms for release for pounded. specific research purposes in either 70 or 100 years There are two forms of benefits for ex-service- time. men, Disability Pensions for war caused disabilities (denied the sailors referred to but introduced in by Senator Bourne (from nine citizens) and 1972 for ‘Defence Service’ within Australia) and Senator Calvert (from 14 citizens). Service Pensions. Allied veterans of 55 nations involved in conflicts with Australian forces until Uranium the end of the Vietnam War can have qualifying To the Honourable the President and Members of eligibility for Service Pensions under the Act. the Senate in the Parliament assembled. Service by 5 countries in Vietnam was recognised after RAN service in Malaya was excluded. The The petition of the undersigned strongly opposes Department of Veterans’ Affairs confirms that 686 any attempts by the Australian government to mine ex-members of the South Vietnamese Armed uranium at the Jabiluka and Koongara sites in the Forces are in receipt of Australian Service Pen- World Heritage Listed Area of the Kakadu National sions; 571 on married rate and 115 on single rate. Park or any other proposed or current operating In effect, 1,257 Service Pensions, denied to ex- site. members of the RAN, are being paid for serving Your petitioners ask that the Senate oppose any alongside Australians in Vietnam. intentions by the Australian government to support It is claimed that: the nuclear industry via any mining, enrichment and sale of uranium. (a) Naval personnel were engaged on operational duties that applied to all other Australian service by Senator Bourne (from 18 citizens). personnel serving overseas on ‘active service’. They bombarded enemy positions in Malaya and Australian Broadcasting Corporation secretly intercepted enemy communications; To the Honourable the President and Members of (b) Naval personnel were subject to similar the Senate in the Parliament assembled. dangers as all other Australian service personnel The petition of the undersigned recognises the serving in Malaya and there were RAN casualties, vital role of a strong and comprehensive Australian none of which appear on the Roll of Honour at the Broadcasting Corporation (ABC) and asks that: Australian War Memorial; 1. Coalition Senators honour their 1996 election (c) the Royal Australian Navy was ‘allotted’ for promise, namely that "The Coalition will maintain operational service from 1st July 1955 and this is existing levels of Commonwealth funding to the documented in Navy Office Minute No. 011448 of ABC". 11 November 1955, signed by the Secretary to the 5890 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997

Department of the Navy. The RAN was then ment to agree to negotiate on an APS-wide basis, apparently ‘unallotted’ secretly to enable the including serious consideration of the Log of excluding legislation to be introduced; Claims of the Community and Public Sector Union. (d) the Department of Veterans’ Affairs has said Your petitioners further request that the Senate it can find no written reason(s) for the RAN closely scrutinise the Government’s consultative exclusion in the Act. In two independent Federal process for revising the APS Act, and rigorously Court cases (Davis WA G130 of 1989 and Doessel oppose any amendments to the Act which would Qld G62 of 1990) the courts found the two ex- fragment and weaken the ability and morale of the members of the RAN had been ‘allotted’. Davis APS to maintain its high level of service to the had served in Malaya in 1956 and 57. As a result Australian people. of these cases ex-members of the RAN who served by Senator Calvert (from 106 citizens). in Malaya and who had, at that time, claims before the Department of Veterans’ Affairs for benefits, Native Title had their claims accepted. Eight weeks after the To the Honourable the President and Members of Doessel decision the Act was amended to require the Senate in the Parliament assembled. allotment to have been by written instrument. In parliament, it was claimed the amendment was The Petition of the undersigned requests that the necessary to restore the intended purpose of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples of this exclusion, reasons for which can not, allegedly, be country are treated justly and fairly. It is in the found. interest of all to build this nation in a spirit of reconciliation and cooperation with Australians of (e) Naval personnel were not, as claimed, bound diverse racial and ethnic backgrounds. by the ‘Special Overseas Service’ requirements, introduced in the Repatriation (Special Overseas We call on you to ensure that regional agree- Service) Act 1962. This Act became law some two ments with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander years after the war in Malaya ended; peoples are pursued in good faith, so as to deter- mine their rights to their land in a spirit of recon- (f) as Australian citizens serving with the Royal ciliation. Australian Navy they complied with three of the four requirements for ‘active service’. The fourth, The co-existence of Native Title and Pastoral for ‘military occupation of a foreign country’ did Leases on Crown Land is supported by legal not apply to Malaya. principle and historic fact, upheld by the High Court. The people and Governments of Australia Your petitioners therefore request the Senate to have a moral responsibility to give this fact real remove the discriminatory exclusion in the Act and just effect. thereby restoring justice and recognition of honour- able ‘active service’ with the Royal Australian We call on members of the Senate to ensure that Navy in direct support of British and Malayan legislation regarding Native Title forces during the Malayan Emergency between (i) complies with internationally recognised 1955 and 1960. principles of non-discrimination; and by Senator Calvert (from five citizens) and (ii) promotes Reconciliation with Australia’s first peoples. Senator MacGibbon (from nine citizens). by Senator Calvert (from 13 citizens). Australian Public Service Human Rights To the Honourable the President and Members of the Senate in Parliament assembled: To the Honourable the President and Members of the Senate in the Parliament Assembled. The Petition of the undersigned members of staff of the Australian Public Service (APS) express We the undersigned residents of Australia draw strong dissatisfaction with the Government’s current the attention of the House to the fact that incidents approach to workplace relations in the APS, of racial discrimination in the period between especially its intention not to negotiate an APS- February 1996 and February 1997 doubled during wide Agreement on pay and conditions of service. the same period for the previous year. The undersigned believe that any agency level We would further like to draw your attention to agreements should be subordinate to an APS-wide the 1997-1998 Federal Budget, which foreshadows agreement on common core conditions, negotiated a cut to the budget of the Human Rights and Equal on their behalf by experienced union negotiators. Opportunity Commission by more than 40 per cent The undersigned are opposed to the use of Austral- over the next two years. ian Workplace Agreements in the APS. Your petitioners therefore request that the House Your petitioners request that the Senate take the resolve to reverse the decision to cut the budget of strongest measures it can to persuade the Govern- the Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commis- Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5891 sion, so that it can carry out its role effectively, We are concerned with the outstanding debt that is, defending the human rights of all people in owed to South Australia by the Commonwealth Australia. Government of Australia for South Australia’s by Senator Calvert (from eight citizens). investment in Northern Territory. Payment of this debt was to be in the form of a Paper railway line from Darwin to Adelaide as a legislat- To the Honourable the President and Members of ed agreement passed by Parliament in 1910 called the Senate assembled in Parliament: the Northern Territory Acceptance Act 1910. The petition of certain citizens of Australia draws We have waited 87 years for the Commonwealth to the attention of the Senate the alleged dumping Government to honour and complete its obligation of cheap imports of coated woodfree paper onto the to the citizens of South Australia, and your peti- Australian market by 14 countries. tioners therefore pray that this House will take all Your petitioners therefore ask the Senate to be appropriate steps to ensure the fulfilment of this aware of the crisis facing the pulp and paper obligation. industry in Tasmania and take any action possible And your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever to prevent entry into Australia of dumped paper pray. from overseas countries. by Senator Ferguson (from 73 citizens). by Senator Watson (from 575 citizens). Petitions received. Constitutional Convention To The Honourable The President and the Members NOTICES OF MOTION of The Senate in the Parliament Assembled Live Sheep Exports The Petition of the undersigned shows that on the 24th June 1997, the Senate rejected the Constitu- Senator MARGETTS (Western Austral- tional Convention (Election) Bill 1997 in its ia)—I give notice that, on the next day of original format and sought to amend it for the sitting, I shall move: second time. That the Senate— The undersigned Petitioners support the Government’s proposal that the vote for delegates (a) notes: to a Constitutional Convention be on a voluntary (i) the launch of a petition of People Against basis and without penalisation of anyone who Cruelty in Animal Transport and the first wishes not to vote, for this is a vote note carrying submission of signatures from 8 186 other any legal consequence. A voluntary vote will also concerned residents calling on the determine the actual interest of the electorate on Government to ban the export of live this issue. sheep and to pursue, as soon as possible, We believe that the Government acted in accord- the alternative frozen carcass trade, ance with the mandate given to it by the People at (ii) the reasons residents are calling for the the last General Election and that the Senate, in ban, which include that the live sheep rejecting the Bill in its original format, are in so trade: doing rejecting the wishes of the People. Your petitioners request that the Senate support (A) is inhumane in the extreme, the passage of the Constitutional Convention (B) is a contributing factor to unemploy- (Election) Bill 1997 in its next reading without ment, amendment and thereby allow the People of Australia an opportunity to put forward their views (C) has adverse effects on residents, and and to have put before them, in a proper and (D) is environmentally harmful, and equitable format, the issues for and against the proposals to change to a Republican system of (iii) community demonstrations in Melbourne, Government. Sydney, Adelaide, Brisbane and Perth, against the live sheep trade industry, by Senator Minchin (from 1,705 citizens). marking the anniversary of the sinking of the Uniceb which resulted in the suffoca- Darwin to Adelaide Railway tion, burning and drowning of 67 488 To the Honourable the President and Members of sheep; and the Senate assembled in Parliament: (b) calls on the Government to immediately ban We the undersigned citizens of the Common- live sheep exports and actively pursue the wealth of Australia showeth that: alternative of the frozen carcass trade. 5892 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997

Textiles, Clothing and Footwear That the Legal and Constitutional Legislation Industries Committee be authorised to hold a public meeting during the sitting of the Senate on 2 September Senator MURRAY (Western Australia)—I 1997, from 4 pm to 6 pm, to take evidence on the give notice that, on the next day of sitting, I committee’s inquiry into the provisions of the shall move: Copyright Amendment Bill 1997. That the Senate calls on the Government to: (a) safeguard employment in the textile, cloth- Migration Regulations ing and footwear industry; Senator MARGETTS (Western Austral- (b) immediately freeze legislated textile, cloth- ia)—I give notice that, on the next day of ing and footwear tariff cuts; sitting, I shall move: (c) ignore the Industry Commission’s draft That the Migration Regulations (Amendment), as recommendations to reduce textile, clothing contained in Statutory Rules 1997 No. 185 and and footwear tariffs to 5 per cent by the made under the Migration Act 1958, be disallowed. year 2005; and (d) retain the Import Credit Scheme unless it is FITZROY RIVER replaced with a more effective alternative program of equivalent value. Senator EGGLESTON (Western Austral- Privacy Legislation ia)—I seek leave to incorporate the remaining sector of an adjournment debate speech I Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- made last night, which was not completed. tralia)—I give notice that, on the next day of sitting, I shall move: Leave granted. That the following matters be referred to the The speech read as follows— Legal and Constitutional References Committee for 1997 cotton production has achieved over $1.2 inquiry and report by the first sitting day in 1998: billion of revenue. (1) The need for Commonwealth privacy legis- Comprehensive studies will be undertaken in lation to be extended to the Australian relation to economic viability. It is estimated that community, having regard to: direct employment would be available to 3,000 (a) relevant international standards and obli- people and 7,500 would benefit from indirect jobs. gations; New business opportunities will be available for (b) international comparisons; service and support industries and from improved public service and infrastructure expansion. (c) current legislative and other frameworks for privacy regulation in the Common- There would be no direct cost to the state and the wealth, States and Territories; success of the project will result in $900 million of export income per year. (d) the role, responsibilities and practices of Commonwealth, State and Territory Comprehensive studies will also be undertaken in governments; social areas. (e) the needs and responsibilities of the There would be greater family security because of private sector; and future job opportunities generated for the younger generation and young people of the West Kimber- (f) the rights of consumers. ley won’t have to move to Perth for employment (2) The extent to which the exposure draft bill purposes as jobs would be available in the region. tabled in the Senate by Senator Stott There would also be an added boost to the tourist Despoja effectively addresses the issues of and scenic value of the region in that tourists will privacy and the private sector, including the be able to go on day trips to see how cotton is appropriateness of any amendments. grown, harvested and processed. Legal and Constitutional Legislation Studies will also be conducted in the areas of Committee technology and environmental sustainability. Australia has a climatic advantage for irrigation, Senator CALVERT (Tasmania)—At the and crops such as cotton, rice, sugar and wine request of Senator Abetz, I give notice that, grapes have been very successful Australian export on the next day of sitting, he will move: industries. Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5893

As previously stated, the West Kimberley has there is little incentive for young Aboriginal people abundant water and consistent high temperature that to maximise or even undertake education instruc- will allow a diverse range of other crops such as tion. WAI will apply particular emphasis towards sugar, horticultural crops, and tropical fruits to initiating educational training and work experience thrive. And further processing opportunities will be programs for young Aboriginal people and will examined for these crops. enlist the support of schools, TAFE, Skillshare and In addition, the Kimberley pastoral industry will be local University campus to institute educational boosted by the availability of feed from by products material that is relevant to future career prospects. and rotational crops that may allow value adding There are likely to be other economic and business through local meat processing. opportunities for members of the indigenous I would also like to state that a research station community which WAI will encourage. (subject to the EIS) will be constructed in the West Given the evidence that I have placed on record in Kimberley and managed by CSIRO, Agriculture the Senate, contrary to what Senator Murray stated, WA and WAI to research all agronomic and a thorough appraisal of the damming of the Fitzroy associated environmental aspects of production. River is being carried out and the study will fully In addition, the West Kimberley will be introduced demonstrate how strong economic growth coupled to new sophisticated technologically advanced with significant net benefits will be delivered. systems and this is expected to achieve new The West Kimberley has the prospect of becoming international benchmarks in environmentally Australia’s food and fibre powerhouse and the sustainable agriculture. For example, the use of proposed damming of the Fitzroy River is a very sub-surface irrigation tape will be used to achieve positive step in this direction. maximum water use efficiency. Water applied ‘fertigation’ application of nutrients and the devel- Thank you Madam President. opment of the industry away from the Fitzroy River NOTICES OF MOTION floodplain will avoid the use of flood irrigation and flood levee banks will not be required. Proposed Joint Select Committee on the Chemical applications have been reduced in the Australian Republic West Kimberley by the use of Monsanto INGARD transgenic cotton varieties, and the implementation Senator CHRIS EVANS (Western Austral- of CSIRO’s Insect Pest Management (IPM) tech- ia)—At the request of Senator Bolkus, I give nique is expected to also contribute to reduced notice that, on the next day of sitting, he will chemical dependency. move: It is very important to understand that it is not (1) That a joint select committee, to be known proposed to grow cotton on the Fitzroy River flood as the Joint Select Committee on the Aus- plain, so there is no possibility of polluting the tralian Republic, be appointed to inquire river with chemicals from cotton crops. into and report, by the last sitting day in Trials of Roundup-Ready plant varieties are expect- March 1998, on the following matters: ed to reduce herbicide applications. The desirability of Australia becoming a Comprehensive studies will also be conducted into republic with an Australian as Head of State the effects that the damming of the Fitzroy River and the process by which that might best will have on Aboriginal Australians. occur, including: WAI’s policy is to achieve a negotiated agreement (a) the circumstances and the timeframe in with the traditional people; respecting their laws, which the move to a republic might customs and traditions. Studies will be undertaken occur; and in full consultation with Aboriginal representatives. (b) the most appropriate republican model to I am advised that WAI have had cooperative be put to the Australian people at a refer- discussions with the Kimberley Land Council about endum. this project and that discussions are also being held with other interested Aboriginal groups such as (2) That, in considering these terms of refer- with Dickie Skinner of the Council of Elders. ence, the committee shall include (but shall not be limited to) consideration of the Currently, unemployment of indigenous people in following models: the West Kimberley is of a very high level. Many Aborigines are dismayed by the current welfare (a) the model advanced by the former Prime dependency. Participation of Aborigines on the Minister, the Hon. Paul Keating, in his project will depend on choices made by them, but response to the report of the Republic opportunities for work will be plentiful. Presently, Advisory Committee (’the minimalist because there are so few career and job prospects, option’); 5894 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997

(b) the establishment of an executive Presi- subcommittee any matter which the dency (’the maximalist option’); and committee is empowered to examine. (c) the model advanced by the former Gover- (13) That the committee appoint the chairman nor of Victoria, Mr Richard McGarvie of each subcommittee who shall have a (’the ultra minimalist option’). casting vote only, and at any time when (3) That the committee shall convene a public the chairman of a subcommittee is not forum in December 1997 to canvass the present at a meeting of a subcommittee principal alternatives for an Australian the members of the subcommittee present Republic and shall present an interim report shall elect another member of that sub- setting out the options. committee to act as chairman at that meeting. (4) That, after presentation of the interim report, the committee shall then engage in a series (14) That the quorum of a subcommittee be a of public consultations throughout Australia majority of the members of that subcom- on the options identified in the interim mittee. report. (15) That members of the committee who are not members of a subcommittee may (5) That the committee may make recommenda- participate in the proceedings of that tions for evidence to be presented directly subcommittee but shall not vote, move to either House. any motion or be counted for the purpose (6) That the committee consist of 4 members of of a quorum. the House of Representatives to be nomi- (16) That the committee and any subcommit- nated by the Government Whip or Whips, tee have power to send for persons and 2 members of the House of Representatives documents, to move from place to place, to be nominated by the Opposition Whip or to sit in public or in private during any Whips, 2 senators to be nominated by the adjournment of the Senate and the House Leader of the Government in the Senate, 2 of Representatives, and have leave to senators to be nominated by the Leader of report from time to time. the Opposition in the Senate, one senator to be nominated by the Leader of the Austral- (17) That the committee be empowered to ian Democrats and one senator to be nomi- print from day to day such documents and nated by any independent senators. evidence as may be ordered by it and a daily Hansard be published of such (7) That every nomination of a member of the proceedings as take place in public. committee be forthwith notified in writing to the President of the Senate and the (18) That a message be sent to the House of Speaker of the House of Representatives. Representatives acquainting it of this resolution and requesting that it concur (8) That the chairman of the committee be and take action accordingly. elected by and from the members of the committee. (19) That, in the event that the Senate does not receive a message from the House of (9) That the committee elect a deputy chairman Representatives by 4 September 1997 who shall act as chairman of the committee concurring with this resolution, the mat- at any time when the chairman is not pres- ters identified in paragraphs (1) and (2) ent at a meeting of the committee, and at then stand referred to the Legal and any time when the chairman and deputy Constitutional References Committee for chairman are not present at a meeting of the inquiry and report by the last sitting day committee the members present shall elect in March 1998. another member to act as chairman at that meeting. Tomahawk Cruise Missiles (10) That, in the event of the votes on a ques- Senator MARGETTS (Western Austral- tion before the committee being equally ia)—I give notice that, on the next day of divided, the chairman, or the deputy chairman when acting as chairman, have sitting, I shall move: a casting vote. That the Senate— (11) That 8 members of the committee consti- (a) notes: tute a quorum of the committee. (i) reports in the Age of 23 August 1997 that (12) That the committee have power to ap- senior military planners are pushing for point subcommittees consisting of 4 or Australia to acquire long-range Toma- more of its members and to refer to any hawk cruise missiles, despite warnings Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5895

that such an increase in Australia’s offen- recommendations of the Liberal Government’s sive capability would trigger an arms race Industry Commission to reduce tariffs are adopted, in the weapons across Asia, (ii) that more than 300 workers at Blund- (ii) reports that the Government has secretly stones could lose their jobs if tariffs are allocated $1.5 million to a study on fitting cut, and the Tomahawk cruise missiles to the (iii) that Tasmania already has the highest submarine fleet, and unemployment rate of any State and (iii) that military strategist, Desmond Ball, has cannot afford any more job losses; and called for an Asia-wide ban on cruise missiles with a range of more than 200 (b) calls on the Government to protect the jobs kilometres through the ASEAN forum, a of Tasmanian textile, clothing and footwear forum in which Australia has so far failed workers by rejecting the Industry Com- to press for a cruise missile ban; and mission’s recommendations. (b) calls on the Government to: COMMITTEES (i) reject the proposal for Tomahawk cruise missiles based on the high cost, the lack Selection of Bills Committee of an enemy threat facing Australia and Report the potential for causing an arms race in our region, and Senator CALVERT (Tasmania)—I present (ii) actively work as a priority for the the 12th report for 1997 of the Standing ASEAN regional forum to adopt a cruise Committee for the Selection of Bills. missile ban as soon as possible. Ordered that the report be adopted. Textiles, Clothing and Footwear Senator CALVERT—I seek leave to have Industries the report incorporated in Hansard. Senator SHERRY (Tasmania—Deputy Leave granted. Leader of the Opposition in the Senate)—I give notice that, on the next day of sitting, I The report read as follows— shall move: REPORT No. 12 OF 1997 That the Senate— 1. The Committee met on 27 August 1997. (a) notes: (i) with concern, the announcement by 2. The Committee resolved: Blundstones Footwear, Hobart, that it (a) That the provisions of the following bills be could move its operations off-shore if the referred to committees:

Stage at Legislation Bill title which referred Committee Reporting date Health Insurance Commission (Re- immediately Community Affairs 24 September 1997 form and Separation of Functions) Bill 1997 (see Appendix 1 for a statement of reasons for referral) Wheat Marketing Amendment Bill immediately Rural and Regional 2 October 1997 1997 (see Appendix 2 for a state- Affairs and Transport ment of reasons for referral) Workplace Relations Amendment immediately Economics 20 October 1997 Bill 1997 (see Appendix 3 for a statement of reasons for referral)

3. The Committee resolved—That the following Customs Tariff Amendment Bill (No. 2) 1997 bills not be referred to committees: (private senator’s bill) Customs and Excise Legislation Amendment Bill Customs Tariff (Fuel Rates Amendments) Bill (No. 2) 1997 1997 Customs Tariff Amendment Bill (No. 2) 1997 Excise Tariff (Fuel Rates Amendments) Bill (government bill) 1997 5896 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997

Fuel Blending (Penalty Surcharge) Bill 1997 Appendix 1 Fuel Misuse (Penalty Surcharge) Bill 1997 Proposal to refer a bill to a committee Fuel (Penalty Surcharges) Administration Bill 1997 Name of bill: Fuel Sale (Penalty Surcharge) Bill 1997 Health Insurance Commission (Reform and Separa- Health Insurance (Pathology Services) Amend- tion of Functions) Bill 1997 ment Bill 1997 Reasons for referral/principal issues for con- Indigenous Education (Supplementary Assist- sideration: ance) Amendment Bill 1997 Provides for the transfer of Medibank Private from Native Title Amendment (Tribunal Appoint- the Health Insurance Commission to a separate ments) Bill 1997 organisation. Explore the impact of the transfer on Plebiscite for an Australian Republic Bill 1997 Medibank Private staff and customers, and the Radiocommunications Legislation Amendment private health insurance industry. Bill 1997 Possible submissions or evidence from: Radiocommunications (Spectrum Licence Tax) Commonwealth Public Sector Union Bill 1997 Medibank Private Social Security Amendment (Entry Payments) Bill 1997 Australian Health Insurance Association States Grants (General Purposes) Amendment Committee to which bill is to be referred: Bill 1997 Community Affairs Legislation Committee Trade Practices Amendment (Fair Trading) Bill 1997 Possible hearing date(s): Transport Legislation Amendment (Search and Possible reporting date: end of September 1997 Rescue Service) Bill 1997 (signed) Workplace Relations and Other Legislation Vicki Bourne Amendment Bill 1997. The Committee recommends accordingly. Whip/Selection of Bills Committee member 4. The Committee deferred consideration of the following bills to the next meeting: Appendix 2 (deferred from meeting of 27 August 1997) Proposal to refer a bill to a committee Child Care Payments Bill 1997 Customs Legislation (Anti-Dumping) Amend- Name of bill: ment Bill 1997 Wheat Marketing Amendment Bill 1997 Customs Tariff (Anti-Dumping) Amendment Bill Reasons for referral/principal issues for con- 1997 sideration: Foreign Affairs and Trade Legislation Amend- ment Bill 1997 (1) The "pull out" by the Western Australian Farmers Federation from the Grains Council Migration Legislation Amendment Bill (No. 4) of Australia over the Australian Wheat Board 1997 restructure ie 50-60 percent of Australia’s Public Employment (Consequential and Transi- wheat crop exiting the proposed legislative tional) Amendment Bill 1997 model. Public Service Bill 1997 (2) Opposition to the proposed Australian Wheat Social Security and Veterans’ Affairs Legislation Board restructure by the Australian Grains Amendment (Family and Other Measures) Bill Industry Task Force on the grounds of 1997 shareholding arrangements, board appoint- Taxation Laws Amendment Bill (No. 4) 1997 ments, overall management and a crash in Telecommunications Amendment (Prohibition of share value when the monopoly is removed. B-Party Charging of Internet Service Providers) Possible submissions or evidence from: Bill 1997 Western Australia Farmers Federation and the Veterans’ Affairs Legislation Amendment Australian Grains Industry Task Force (Budget and Compensation Measures) Bill 1997. (Paul Calvert) Committee to which bill is to be referred: Chair Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legisla- 28 August 1997 tion Committee Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5897

Possible hearing date(s): regulations of the Migration Act 1958, be post- Possible reporting date: 23 October 1997 poned till the next day of sitting. (signed) General Business S. Conroy Motion (by Senator Campbell) agreed to: Whip/Selection of Bills Committee member That the order of general business for consider- ation today be as follows: (1) General business notice of motion No. 708 Appendix 3 standing in the name of Senator Cook, relating Proposal to refer a bill to a committee to the textile, clothing and footwear industries. (2) Consideration of government documents. Name of bill: Workplace Relations Amendment Bill 1997 NOTICES OF MOTION Reasons for referral/principal issues for con- Economics References Committee sideration: Whether there is any necessity for small business Senator CHRIS EVANS (Western Austral- to be exempted from the laws prohibiting harsh, ia)—At the request of Senator Lundy, I unjust or unreasonable termination. withdraw business of the Senate notice of What effect the exemption will have on employees motion No. 1 standing in her name for today. terminated in harsh, unjust or unreasonable circum- stances. ORDER OF BUSINESS Possible submissions or evidence from: Legal and Constitutional References Employer organisations; individual employers; Committee Australian Council of Trade Unions; individual Motion (by Senator Kernot) agreed to: unions; individual employees; welfare groups. That business of Senate notice of motion No. 4 Committee to which bill is to be referred: standing in the name of Senator Kernot for today, Economics Legislation Committee relating to reference of matters to the Legal and Possible hearing date(s): Constitutional References Committee, be postponed till the next day of sitting. Possible reporting date: 10 November 1997 (signed) Government Business S. Conroy Senator CAMPBELL (Western Australia— Whip/Selection of Bills Committee member Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasurer)—I move: ORDER OF BUSINESS That intervening business be postponed till after Government Business consideration of government business order of the day No. 2 (Multilateral Investment Guarantee Motion (by Senator Campbell) agreed to: Agency Bill 1996). That the following government business orders I indicate to the Senate that it is proposed to of the day be considered from 12.45 p.m. till not adjourn debate on the Multilateral Investment later than 2.00 p.m. this day: Guarantee Agency Bill at approximately 10.30 No. 6— Carriage of Goods by Sea Amendment a.m., and at that time to resume debate on the Bill 1997 message from the House of Representatives No. 7— Broadcasting Services Legislation in respect of the Constitutional Convention Amendment Bill 1997 (Election) Bill 1997. Television Licence Fees Amendment Bill 1997 Senator KERNOT (Queensland—Leader Radio Licence Fees Amendment Bill 1997, of the Australian Democrats)—by leave— second reading. Could you tell us why, Manger of Govern- Migration Regulations ment Business? Motion (by Senator Margetts) agreed to: Senator CAMPBELL (Western Australia— That business of the Senate notices of motion Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasurer)— Nos 2 and 3 standing in the name of Senator We have had indications from some senators Margetts for today, relating to the disallowance of who are trying to discuss various wording and 5898 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 amendments that it would be more appropriate you will have to try somehow to defeat my and be a better use of the Senate’s time if that motion. debate was delayed until 10.30. This mecha- Senator MURRAY (Western Australia)— nism ensures that the Senate gets on with by leave—I thank the parliamentary secretary other business in the interim. for his answer. I think we wanted to ascertain Senator Murray—Sorry, I was trying to whether there were negotiations going on and intervene as you were talking—before you that it was not merely that senators needed called, ‘The ayes have it.’ more time to consider the matter. Thank you. The PRESIDENT—Do you wish to make Question resolved in the affirmative. a point? National Competition Policy Senator Murray—Yes, I just want to United Nations Working Group on question why the— Indigenous Peoples The PRESIDENT—We will take it that the Uranium Mining motion has not been put and you can speak to the motion moved by Senator Campbell. Is Motion (by Senator Margetts) agreed to: leave granted for Senator Murray to raise a That general business notices of motion Nos. matter on this issue? 688, 711 and 713 standing in the name of Senator Margetts for today, relating to the appointment of Leave granted a select committee on the socio-economic conse- quences of the national competition policy, indigen- Senator MURRAY (Western Australia)—It ous peoples and uranium mining at Jabiluka, be is a question to the Manager of Government postponed till the next day of sitting. Business. I just wonder why it is not possible to do what has to be done—in terms of Australian Workplace Agreements senators needing help with amendments or a Motion (by Senator Chris Evans, at the view on things—in the committee process of request of Senator Mackay) agreed to: the bill. That is where we are; we are in That general business notice of motion No. 641 committee. Surely this is the time. Can’t we standing in the name of Senator Mackay for today, just bring it on and deal with it now? proposing an order for the production of documents by the Minister representing the Minister for Senator CAMPBELL (Western Australia— Workplace Relations and Small Business (Senator Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasurer)—by Alston), be postponed till 4 September 1997. leave—You can actually negotiate these things on the floor of the committee and take LEAVE OF ABSENCE up hours. It is very analogous to the situation Motion (by Senator Chris Evans)—by that occurred when the Australian Democrats leave—agreed to: thought that it would be better use of the That leave of absence be granted to Senator Senate’s time to negotiate changes to the Bishop for the period 1 September 1997 to 4 Natural Heritage Trust legislation by entering September 1997 inclusive, on account of absence into negotiations outside the chamber and overseas on parliamentary business. then bringing back some form of agreement. COMMITTEES It is also similar to negotiations and discus- sions that were held between the Australian Community Affairs References Democrats and the Minister for Industrial Committee Relations outside this chamber on changes to Extension of Time the industrial relations legislation. Motion (by Senator Bishop) agreed to: Senator Sherry—Disgraceful negotiations. That the time for the presentation of the report of the Community Affairs References Committee Senator CAMPBELL—Disgraceful nego- on the fairness of the recent settlement offered to tiations, Senator Sherry would say. If the human pituitary hormones recipients by the Senate seeks to have a lengthy debate on the Commonwealth Government and whether public motion and not use its time effectively, then safety has been protected in relation to the Austral- Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5899 ian Human Pituitary Hormone Program be extended being introduced together. After debate on the to 1 October 1997. motion for the second reading has been MR MICHAEL DOOHAN adjourned, I will be moving a motion to have the bills listed separately on the Notice Paper. Motion (by Senator Campbell) agreed to: I move: That the Senate— That these bills may proceed without formalities, (a) notes the resolution no. 1815 agreed to on may be taken together and be now read a first time. 28 September 1995 in relation to the achievement of Mr Michael Doohan in Question resolved in the affirmative. winning back-to-back 500cc world motor- Bills read a first time. cycle championships; (b) congratulates Mr Doohan on achieving Second Reading another world championship victory; and Senator CAMPBELL (Western Australia— (c) wishes Mr Doohan well for the remaining Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasurer) races of the 1997 season and for his prepa- (9.49 a.m.)—I move: rations for the 1998 World Championships. That these bills be now read a second time. MR GEOFF NICHOLAS I seek leave to have the second reading Motion (by Senator Forshaw) agreed to: speeches incorporated in Hansard That the Senate— Leave granted. (a) notes: The speeches read as follows— (i) that Mr Geoff Nicholas, a member of the Lakes Golf Club in Sydney, recently won INDIGENOUS EDUCATION his 8th consecutive British Open Amputee (SUPPLEMENTARY ASSISTANCE) and United States Open Amputee titles, AMENDMENT BILL 1997 (ii) the great benefits and national importance The bill provides for this government’s commit- of increasing levels of participation in ment to two initiatives. sport by Australians thereby improving The first is its commitment to lift the requirement the health and fitness of the community, for at least 10% of enrolled students to be indigen- and ous before a non-government non-systemic pre- (iii) the significant contribution that Geoff school, school or vocational education and training Nicholas’ success makes to inspiring institution can be funded under the indigenous other Australians to participate in sport; education strategic initiatives program (IESIP). and The amendment leaves in place the requirement for (b) congratulates Mr Nicholas on his outstand- there to be a minimum of 20 students in a non- ing achievements. government non-systemic school and a non-govern- ment non-systemic vet institution and for there to INDIGENOUS EDUCATION be a minimum of 5 students in a non-government (SUPPLEMENTARY ASSISTANCE) non-systemic preschool. These limits will avoid the AMENDMENT BILL 1997 administrative expense of providing small amounts of money to small numbers of scattered students. TRANSPORT LEGISLATION It will also avoid the situation where there will be AMENDMENT (SEARCH AND little or no benefit to individual students from the RESCUE SERVICE) BILL 1997 provision of small grants. This amendment will enable institutions where HEALTH INSURANCE (PATHOLOGY there are significant numbers of indigenous stu- SERVICES) AMENDMENT BILL 1997 dents, but these students represent less than 10% of total enrolments, to qualify for funding under the First Reading act. Experience has shown that the 10% require- Bills received from the House of Represen- ment has excluded some institutions from receiving tatives. supplementary funding in respect of their indigen- ous students. Senator CAMPBELL (Western Australia— The second amendment will permit the adjustment Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasurer)—I of grants under the indigenous education strategic indicate to the Senate that those bills which initiatives program in line with cost increases, for have just been announced by the President are the period up to 30 june 2000. The appropriations 5900 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 for these years are in subsections 13B(4), (5), (6) centralised structure. This initiative will strengthen and (7) in the principal act. Inclusion of a cost Australia’s already formidable international reputa- supplementation provision in the principal act will tion in search and rescue. Both AMSA and AA bring the program into line with other education support this amalgamation. programs. Amendments I commend the bill to the Senate. The amendments to the AMSA Act make clear that TRANSPORT LEGISLATION AMENDMENT in addition to its present maritime search and (SEARCH AND RESCUE SERVICE) BILL rescue service, AMSA will also provide an aviation search and rescue service. The provision of the 1997 amalgamated service will be performed in a manner The purpose of this bill is to amend the Australian consistent with Australia’s obligations under Maritime Safety Authority Act 1990 (AMSA Act), applicable international conventions. Air Services Act 1995 (Airservices Act) and Civil The Airservices Act will be amended to reflect the Aviation Act 1988 (Civil Aviation Act) to facilitate transfer of responsibility for aviation search and the amalgamation of the Commonwealth’s civil rescue to AMSA. AA will continue to manage any maritime and aviation search and rescue coordina- liabilities that arise out of its present provision of tion functions into one national centre. The bill also search and rescue services. amends the AMSA Act to increase the number of ordinary members on the Board of AMSA and The Civil Aviation Act will be amended to enable make the appointment of a Departmental officer to the Civil Aviation Safety Authority to continue to the Board discretionary. have a role in setting safety standards and making regulations relating to the performance of search Australia’s civil search and rescue coordination and rescue services by aircraft. functions are presently divided between state/territory Police Services, industry and volun- AMSA Board teer groups and at the Commonwealth level, The bill also increases the number of ordinary between two agencies, Airservices Australia (AA) members on the AMSA Board from three to four and the Australian Maritime Safety Authority given the increased responsibilities of AMSA and (AMSA). to enable the appointment of a member with The effectiveness of search and rescue coordination aviation experience. This is consistent with the activities relies on successful communication government’s aim that members of Boards have between these agencies. One of the first acts of this relevant experience. government last year was to initiate an independent The AMSA Act will also be amended to make the review into the costs and benefits that could arise appointment of a Departmental officer to the Board from a rationalisation of the Commonwealth’s civil discretionary. This will provide the minister with search and rescue functions. The review was to also the flexibility to appoint a Departmental officer for recommend on the best administrative organisation- specific periods where particular expertise is al model and location of a search and rescue required. coordination centre. Transitional Arrangements The review concluded that the present dual The bill makes arrangements for the transfer to Commonwealth civil search and rescue coordination AMSA of assets associated with AA’s search and system lacks a clear and unified strategic and rescue function. The value of these assets is to be operational focus, with no clear accountability for determined by the minister following independent systems failures. The report recommended the valuation. The assets transfer will not be subject to establishment of a single civil search and rescue capital gains tax. coordination centre to be managed by AMSA. The transitional arrangements also enable the The minister for Transport and Regional Develop- minister or his delegate to transfer rights under ment announced on 15 January this year the contracts from AA to AMSA. establishment of a new national centre for the A regulation-making power will provide for coordination of civil maritime and aviation search regulations to be made in relation to transitional and rescue. This centre will bring together the matters arising from the transfer of the search and search and rescue coordination functions of AA and rescue function from AA to AMSA. AMSA. The national centre, to be called "AusSAR, the Australian Search and Rescue Organisation", HEALTH INSURANCE (PATHOLOGY will be located in Canberra and managed on behalf SERVICES) AMENDMENT BILL 1997 of the Federal Government by AMSA. The Health Insurance (Pathology Services) Amend- Search and rescue functions will be better coordi- ment Bill 1997 gives effect to several Government nated and more effective through improved com- initiatives relating to Medicare benefits for pathol- munications and responsiveness under the new ogy services. Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5901

This bill would allow the Governor-General to Debate (on motion by Senator Chris make Regulations to give the Health Insurance Evans) adjourned. Commission power to directly impose penalties for the less serious infringements relating to pathology. Ordered that these bills be listed on the It is envisaged that the proposed system of penalty Notice Paper as separate orders of the day. notices, operating in a similar manner to traffic infringement fines, would enable the Commission MULTILATERAL INVESTMENT to deal more efficiently and expeditiously with GUARANTEE AGENCY BILL 1996 these infringements. The bill also makes an amendment to the licensing Second Reading scheme for the collection of pathology specimens. Debate resumed from 24 February, on It introduces a requirement that the owner of a motion by Senator Ian Macdonald: licensed collection centre must at all times display a notice clearly visible from the outside, to let the That this bill be now read a second time. public know that the centre is licensed. The bill Senator SHERRY (Tasmania—Deputy increases the maximum penalty for infringement from $100 to $1000, to be in line with other Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (9.49 penalties relating to collection centres. The inten- a.m.)—The Multilateral Investment Guarantee tion of this is to provide a deterrent to the operation Agency Bill which the Senate is considering of unlicensed collection centres and to protect proposes to appropriate the funds and to issue consumer interests. the securities to effect Australia’s membership Currently, the Act restricts pathology providers of the Multilateral Investment Guarantee from entering into arrangements for the occupation Agency, commonly known as the MIGA. The of premises with medical practitioners or entrepre- Treasurer, Mr Costello, signed the MIGA neurs, except for the establishment of licensed convention, which is contained in schedule 1 collection centres, accredited laboratories, or the rendering of professional services. The aim is to of the bill, on behalf of Australia on 30 prevent arrangements that constitute inducements September 1996. This act, though significant, to medical practitioners. An amendment in this bill did not attract much attention back in Austral- clarifies the wording of the provision to establish ia. The reason for this was that his trip was beyond doubt that professional services must be the embarrassing first trip to the US for the performed by the pathologist in person. In other new Treasurer—the trip where the world got words, the arrangement cannot be one where the medical practitioner receives payment for provid- to know Mr Costello as an indiscreet Treasur- ing, for example, storage space to a pathologist. er, amongst some other characteristics that have become apparent in respect of his behav- The bill also seeks to streamline administration of approvals for accredited pathology laboratories, iour in recent times. approved pathology practitioners and approved Honourable senators will remember that the pathology authorities. These are renewed annually, Treasurer had a meeting with the Chair of the or very three years in the case of the laboratories. Federal Reserve, Mr Alan Greenspan, wherein Currently, Medicare benefits are not payable where these approvals lapse simply as a result of adminis- they discussed, amongst other things, the trative carelessness on the part of the pathology future prospects for US interest rates. Mr provider, for example, posting the application forms Costello then, very improperly, divulged the a few weeks after they are due. This can result in contents of that meeting and the market- major financial losses to the pathology provider and sensitive information arising from the meeting in patients being deprived of Medicare benefits. to a group of journalists. Mr Michael The amendment will allow backdating of approvals in limited circumstances, to ensure that Medicare Stutchbury, writing in the Australian Finan- benefit payments are not disrupted in instances that cial Review, correctly realised the significance do not warrant it. of the Costello indiscretions and reported The measures we are introducing in this bill are them on page 1. The rest is history. important to the maintenance of the Pathology We then had the embarrassing scene of the Agreement which was introduced in the 1996-97 Australian Treasurer trying desperately to Budget, and which limits pathology expenditure under Medicare to pre-determined levels. They will disavow the report. Then a tape of the meet- strengthen the Agreement by reducing inappropriate ing surfaced, showing clearly that the Treas- practices which undermine its basis. They have the urer had fibbed in his earlier denials of the support of the pathology profession. reported contents of the interview, where he 5902 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 had described the original report as ‘fanciful’. Needless to say, the signing of the MIGA In the meantime, the Treasurer, Mr Costello, convention was overshadowed somewhat due had moved world bond markets significantly, to the Treasurer’s indiscretions. However, the ensuring that billions of dollars changed matter is finally before the Senate and the bill hands. Not even you, Senator Kemp, could is supported by the Labor opposition. accomplish this. Indeed, the pressure be- MIGA is an institution of the World Bank. came so great that the Treasurer had to It was established in 1988 by international cancel— convention. Its purpose is to foster foreign The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT investment in developing countries and (Senator Ferguson)—Senator Sherry, I think transitional economies by providing insurance you should withdraw an earlier comment. You against various risks and advisory services, were probably waiting for me to say it, but I such as legal advice, concerning the facilita- think that the— tion of foreign investment. These services Senator SHERRY—Which comment was complement the programs and activities of that? other international institutions such as the The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I World Bank, the International Finance Corpo- think you talked about the Treasurer fibbing. ration and the United Nations Industrial Development Organisation. Senator SHERRY—Sorry. ‘Terminological inexactitude’ is what I should have referred MIGA was created on the premise that to. investors, especially in projects in developing countries, were inhibited by fears of non- The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I commercial risks and lack of local knowledge knew, Senator Sherry, that you would prob- and technical assistance. MIGA could assist ably have a response, but I do think you these investors by issuing guarantees, includ- should withdraw that. ing co-insurance and reinsurance against non- Senator SHERRY—I totally withdraw the commercial risks in respect of investments in allegation that the Treasurer fibbed. It was a a member country which flow from other terminological inexactitude that rocked the member countries. MIGA can offer protection world on that occasion. We all know Senator against losses arising from non-convertibility Kemp avoids terminological inexactitudes. He of currency but not devaluations and various avoids everything. other risks, such as losses of ownership or The pressure became so great that the control over the investment, losses arising Treasurer had to cancel a planned press from an inability of the investor to enforce a conference because of the huge international court decision concerning an investment embarrassment he had become. That is very contract against the host country and losses unfortunate in the context of this important arising from damage to tangible assets arising piece of legislation we are considering now. from disturbances, including revolution, The other events, which I have referred to, terrorism and sabotage. did overshadow his signing this very import- From its inception until 1996, MIGA has ant agreement on behalf of Australia. considered 215 projects. Forty developing I think the headline from the Melbourne countries have benefited from these projects Age of 3 October 1996 summed up the matter and more than $US15 billion of direct foreign very well—‘Costello gaffe echoes around the investment has been generated from invest- world’. We have recently seen the Treasurer’s ment guarantees issued by MIGA. This means next foray into international affairs with the jobs and opportunities for often the most embarrassment at the South Pacific Forum disadvantaged peoples in the world. Eradicat- economic ministers meeting. This time it was ing poverty in the world, which I am sure is not loose lips that embarrassed the Treasurer a shared goal of all members of this Senate, but sloppy organisational practice. Again means facilitating economic development Australia’s reputation is diminished because throughout the developing world. MIGA of amateurish procedures and incompetence. provides one piece of the international frame- Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5903 work to facilitate increased economic invest- foreign affairs policy towards not only pro- ment by assisting investors to have the confi- tecting our own interests but also working dence to invest in nations which are con- with other governments to ensure a coopera- sidered to have significant sovereign risk. tive approach to solving common problems. There are 128 developing countries of A few of those common problems include MIGA and 21 industrial country members or controlling international speculation, ending signatories to the convention, including all of the exploitation of women and children, the G7 nations. As well as assisting the protecting the environment, raising workplace laudable aims of MIGA, Australian member- health and safety standards, solving the ship should also assist Australian firms doing growing refugee problem, addressing the business—for example, through obtaining an growing global levels of unemployment and MIGA guarantee or through obtaining politi- income polarisation, reducing the concentra- cal risk insurance. I say as an aside that this tion of economic and technical power and is one aspect that some critics of our interna- ending the use of the land mines. These tional involvement often do not choose to problems can only be overcome by govern- highlight. In addition, Australian membership ments working together to set the national and should be viewed positively by other nations international standards under which the new in terms of fulfilling our international devel- global game will be played. opment obligations. Australia is a middle ranking power and The total cost of the shares in MIGA are there is obviously a limit to what it can do. around $25 million, of which 10 per cent will Australia can, in fact should, take a stand on be paid in cash in 1997-98, a further 10 per these important matters of great principle. cent by way of promissory note, with the This is the spirit in which I propose to move balance being a contingent liability which is an amendment to the Multilateral Investment on call if required. The bill appropriates the Guarantee Agency Bill. necessary moneys under clause 4 and author- This bill proposes to appropriate funds and ises the issue of securities under clause 5. to issue securities to affect Australia’s In 1993, the Joint Standing Committee on membership to the Multilateral Investment Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade concluded Guarantee Agency. The MIGA is an institu- that the benefits of joining MIGA were in tion of the World Bank and it is designed to excess of the costs and that therefore Austral- foster foreign investment in developing ia should join. I reiterate the economic advan- countries by providing insurance against risks tages of being a member of MIGA exceed the and by providing advisory services regarding economic costs. That is obviously as well as foreign investment. the important contribution MIGA makes to Australia signed the MIGA in September assisting in the eradication of poverty in those 1996. That was after the Joint Standing 128 countries. Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and I would ask Senator Kemp at this stage if Trade recommended that we join the MIGA he could confirm for the Senate the financial because the benefits outweighed the costs. implications of the legislation for future Those benefits which they nominated included Australian governments. Specifically, is it the encouragement of economic growth, that correct that the maximum amount of addition- membership would provide part of the ration- al contribution beyond the $2.5 million ale for our policy on overseas aid and, im- pledged in cash and the $2.5 million to be portantly, that it also provided for facilitated covered by promissory notes is actually commercial opportunities for Australian around $20 million? I reiterate the Labor business operating in developing countries. opposition’s support for the passage of this When the foreign affairs white paper is legislation as swiftly as possible. tabled today by the Minister for Foreign Senator BOURNE (New South Wales) Affairs (Mr Downer) it is likely to recom- (9.58 a.m.)—The development of the global mend that Australia focus its energies to economy means that Australia must direct its expand our relationship in Asia. Presumably, 5904 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 this will refer to a growing economic relation- the second reading motion of the bill today. ship. Considering the dreadful damage that I therefore move: the government has inflicted on our people-to- At the end of the motion, add: people relationships with Asia through the closing down of Radio Australia’s Darwin "but the Senate is of the view that all Australian companies operating overseas should adhere to transmitter, it really cannot be anything else. the minimum environmental and occupational With this growing economic focus, the health and safety standards that would apply to Democrats believe that Australian business the company in Australia or to a company must take responsibility for ensuring that our registered and operating in the relevant country". investments and the employment practices of Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) Australians working overseas recognise the (10.02 a.m.)—The Multilateral Investment rights of workers and the need to protect the Guarantee Agency Bill is designed to accept environment. The federal government should an international convention and join the make it clear to all Australian businesses Multilateral Investment Guarantee Agency, a operating overseas that it expects that they part of the World Bank institutions. The shall act at all times in a manner consistent agency is intended to protect foreign inves- with international human rights and in accord- tors—and that should be understood as private ance with Australian domestic law. sector investors—by insuring them against This will not be news to my fellow mem- various risks. The idea is that foreign invest- bers of the foreign affairs and human rights ment is the same as development and that subcommittees of the Joint Committee on what is good for Union Carbide is good for Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade because Bhopal. it is something that I raise with them all the The World Bank hardly has an unblemished time. In fact, it is something for which I have, record on human rights and environmental I am sure, a good deal of sympathy inside issues, even in its own programs. It has that committee. supported large infrastructure projects which If Australian workers are protected by have resulted in hundreds of thousands of occupational health and safety rules and people being forcibly relocated from small regulation in this country, then why should subsistence farms to urban shantytowns. It has Australian businesses be allowed to drop supported numerous badly planned projects, those standards merely because they are such as dam projects that did not fulfil their operating offshore? Similarly, if Australian objective of providing good physical infra- companies have to undertake an environment- structure because they were poorly planned al impact statement before they undertake, for and silted up quickly. They did not fulfil their example, infrastructure development in this social objectives: they mostly provided power country, then why should those standards for for exploitative industries at subsidised rates environmental protection not be undertaken in while not providing any substantial benefit to overseas developing countries, especially ordinary people, resulting in dislocation of those whose rules and laws are not consistent large numbers of people and the flooding of with our minimum standards? communities. This is not only for the protection of the The dams were also frequently environ- workers or for the protection of the environ- mentally destructive, again due to poor plan- ment of those developing countries within ning, not only destroying waterways that were which Australian businesses seek to operate. biotically important and affecting things like These standards would also indicate that fisheries as far as the ocean but also being Australia is still a good global citizen, willing reservoirs of disease, creating conditions to comply with at least minimum standards downstream which favoured parasites that live for workers and environmental protection. in the snails of slow moving waters. In That is something that we need to reinforce relation to dam projects, schistosomiasis very much at the moment. So those are the seems to be something of an environmental reasons why I am moving my amendment to disease that continues to affect people. Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5905

The World Bank’s poor environmental and made. They prohibit any requirement by a so- social record has resulted in various cosmetic called sovereign nation to say that goods and, later, serious efforts to make their loans produced in a country must be made available and the projects that they supported less at competitive prices within that country. environmentally and socially malign. They They prohibit any restriction on the transfer even had Herman Daly, as well-known theo- of assets or profit. rist in the area of ecologically sustainable On the other hand, we are told by the same economics, on their staff to monitor their World Trade Organisation that we cannot performance. He remained highly critical apply similar environmental or sustainable during his time at the bank. He decried their process standards on imports as we do on our lack of action and resources for their environ- own products because that would be infring- mental unit and their failure to apply the ing on the sovereignty of other nations. environmental standards they had developed Though this is administered by the World as criteria for loans in their own activity. Bank, the investments they wish to eliminate I think they have made some improvements risks from—using donations from Australia since Daly’s time, but they are not huge. and other developed countries, paid for by There has been substantial criticism of the their citizens—are private sector investments World Bank for its support of the Internation- made on a for-profit basis. They are not al Monetary Fund and the IMF-like structural development assistance. They are not in any adjustment policies requiring the wind-back way or form in order to benefit the people of of regulation governing foreign investment the country in which the investments are and imports, and requiring cutbacks in the being made. delivery of availability of social programs like We see in the criteria for eligible invest- health, education and the provision of clean ments, article 12, that investments can be new water. So it is with reservation and suspicion greenfield investments. They can be invest- that I see that this agency will be adminis- ments to modernise, expand or develop tered by the World Bank. existing investment. They can therefore be The agency is part of a push to protect the used for something like CRC expanding an investments of global companies and to allow HCFC plant in China, even though China them to invest in ways that give little or produces excellent, indigenously developed nothing back to recipient nations. Most of the refrigerants that do not add to global warm- international measures in trade fora, such as ing. Under 12(c)(ii) guaranteed expenditure the World Trade Organisation’s consideration can be any use of profit within the country, of trade-related investment measures— presumably from the non-use of the term, TRIM—and APEC demands, particularly by whether or not that use is investment. the United States, try to force nations to The things that the agency must satisfy eliminate any regulation of foreign investment themselves about, as included in 12(d), are through the use of the trade sanctions cudgel. minimal. An investment must be economically Along these lines, we have seen the United sound, that is, be likely to turn a profit. It States push for Australia to eliminate the must not be a criminal operation. That is Foreign Investment Review Board, in spite of reassuring given that their risks are being the totally innocuous and ineffective nature of guaranteed by the taxpayers of the so-called that organisation. developed world. It is nice to know the World In the so-called developing world, the push Bank will not support drug cartels or sale of for freedom of foreign investment takes the female sex slaves, at least where those are form of restrictions or prohibitions on any open purposes of investment. nation requiring a company extracting forest Another criteria is that the host country to actually do some of the downstream pro- already has a legal framework prohibiting cessing in the country. They prohibit any most of the things this agency is supposed to requirement for a percentage of profit to be prevent the risk of, that is, legal protection of reinvested within the nation where profit is the investment. A fourth criteria is that the 5906 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 investment be consistent with the declared safer for the environment on which the poor development objectives and priorities of the in a developing nation depend far more host nation. Now that criteria has some heavily than those in developed nations. The potential to assure there is some benefit to principle of profit maximisation through people. It depends how it will be interpreted. exploiting lower standards in a poor country Unfortunately, the World Bank has never runs diametrically opposite to these principles been strong on these issues. of development. The World Bank does, however, have In that respect, I would like to point out criteria and guidelines for social impact, that one of the stated objectives of this agen- social justice and equity, environmental cy is—from page 20, line 8—to seek to protection and ecologically sustainable devel- remove impediments, in both developed and opment. We hope that our government will developing member countries, to the flow of argue that these be explicitly included in the investment to developing member countries. criteria for giving a private sector investment We have Bhopal as one of the major testa- a multi-governmental public sector guarantee ments of profitoriented investment. This against economic risk. We think that the agency, with its guarantees, would, on my World Bank, in all of its agencies and institu- understanding, insulate Union Carbide from tions, must be made much more responsible India’s attempts to wrest some compensation and its policies applied more consistently and from them. If India sought to freeze accounts transparently. or hold profits and assets in the country, that A second element we seek to see as a is precisely the sort of risk this agency would criteria is that investors should apply the protect a corporate investor from and it would standards of environmental protection, occu- use Australian money, and the money of other pational health and safety and public health developed nations, supposedly provided for and safety at the level required in their home development purposes, in order to do this. countries or standards which apply in the This is not a fanciful scenario; these things country whose standards are highest, where a are happening. company is equally at home in several count- This agency would protect investors against ries. I do not think this is a lot to ask. These risk—including companies like BHP, investors are being presented as worthy of RTZ/CRA, Western Mining or Century international support on the basis that they are Zinc—in investments like Ok Tedi, part of the international development effort. Bougainville or Mindanao. Any attempt by But today’s international development effort nations involved to prevent the repatriation of takes account of the legitimate social goals of profits, even to assure that they do not just nations receiving assistance and stresses the flee pending a court action, would seem to be need for measures that reduce absolute pover- covered here under article 11(a)(i) which ty, increase equity and specifically help the guarantees against loss resulting from: poorest people and communities. It takes . . . any introduction attributable to the host account of the relationship between poverty Government of restriction on the transfer outside and environmental degradation, and exploita- the host country of its currency into a freely tive investment. It embraces the principles of useable currency or another currency acceptable to ecological sustainability in some form or the holder of the guarantee, including a failure of the host government to act within a reasonable other. period of time on an application by such holder for It is therefore entirely inappropriate to such a transfer. support the sort of investment based on In other words, this first measure is insurance reduced costs because there are lower stand- against a company having its financial assets ards of protection. Part of the principles of frozen. The second is a guarantee against development is the application and transfer of having any material assets or activities frozen improved technology, particularly technology in any way. Work at Ok Tedi could not be which makes a project safer; safer for work- ordered to stop for an investigation, since it ers, safer for the public around a plant and would: Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5907

. . . deprive the holder of a guarantee of his owner- United States government then tried to cover ship and control of, or a substantial benefit from, the embarrassment by demanding that the his investment. widows move away to Flagstaff or some other In addition, the fourth measure would insure major town before they got a pension. The Bougainville Copper against their economic Widows of Redrock campaign was born—the loss from the civil disturbance there, in spite Navaho women’s fight to stay on their own of the fact that they are heavily implicated in land, among their own people. That campaign the disturbance and the conflict started in was about the right not to be moved away, 1988 as protest against environmental degra- but the underlying theme was the utter con- dation and social loss from the mining ven- tempt with which these people were treated, ture. due to the ability to overlook a number of occupational safety and public health laws I know the rhetoric is about arbitrary moves since it was on an Indian reservation. by dictatorial leaders of banana republics, but this is more about making sure big transna- The big free trade push of the last decade tionals do not ever lose a cent. What is not put a new wrinkle in this situation. We have recognised is the inequality of power in seen situations in North America where the relationships between global companies and opening of the border between the United the poor. I know that, in many cases, it is the States and Mexico and the institution—though governments of those companies which are perhaps imposition would be more accurate— very much involved in those decisions. That of a free investment regime has meant that a does not make it any better. very large number of industrial enterprises For years now, we have had reports from moved from the United States to Mexico. South America and other countries of poor They did not move deep into established people, often displaced from their land, living Mexican population areas, but just across the in tin shacks amidst industrial effluent and border, so the managers could continue living heavily polluted land, seeing their children in Texas, Arizona or California. The goods born with outrageous levels of birth defects, produced could be immediately sent to their and people of all ages suffering from indus- intended market, which was the United States. trial diseases and cancers. Even when these people know they have a high chance of The industrial estates—in which the United having children born without limbs or with States environmental laws did not apply, various disorders, often both serious or irre- where waste was simply dumped into the mediable, they move in because, when devel- surrounding countryside and rivers—became opment of a dam, ranch, mine or forestry known as the Maquiladoras. I remember operation eliminates their farm and the farms vividly an article about a relocated Zenith of all their neighbours, there is nowhere else plant which makes colour TV picture tubes. to go. These industrially blighted areas hold It had moved from the United States. The the potential of a job which may mean the author of the article talked with US workers capacity to survive, although the very low who had lost their jobs and who had seen not wages do not give a capacity to do much only their own plant shut down and disappear more than survive in the shantytowns. This but also many of the other industries in town. picture is, after all, what developing world The article also interviewed Mexican poverty is about. It is these kinds of situations workers who lived in shanties near the fac- that have created the passions of Susan tory, very near to waste tips. The workers George or Jacabo Schatan. talked about industrial diseases and the effects The developing world can easily be the of being exposed to the chemicals that line Navaho-Hopi reservation in the US south- picture tubes. They were not that ignorant, west, where the wonderful offer of jobs and just poor and powerless. They knew that a job opportunities in the uranium mines around in a Maquiladora was one of the few oppor- Redrock resulted in the premature death of tunities they had to feed their families, and virtually all the adult men in the town. The they were not going to imperil that by com- 5908 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 plaining too loudly about wages and condi- I just do not buy the explanation that the tions. developing nations are underpolluted and poor families in India, Brazil or Mexico who live Not long after that article, a year or so, near these industrial towns need to have one there were news reports from southern Texas child in four born with serious pollution- of whole towns where suddenly a very high caused congenital diseases. I do not accept percentage of babies began to be born with that situation made as a result of imperilled serious congenital birth defects. By serious, I survival. Inequalities of power established by mean born with part of their brain and spinal social relations of poverty equate to free nerve chord exposed. Nearly all of the prob- choice. lems were nervous system skeletal develop- ment problems, and the cause was found to be The focus of both the Democrats’ second pollution in the rivers from the waste of reading amendment and my substantive Maquiladoras across the border in Mexico. amendments are simply to require that, if it is set up in the name of development, it should Are these the kinds of investments we are not be supporting the kind of situation where seeking to protect? Both the United States and unsafe practices are used to disastrously Mexico used the rhetoric of development for exploit poor developing nation workers which, pushing to create this sort of situation. I know in turn, is used as an argument to reduce that a clause in the covenant about being wages and conditions for battling workers in consistent with the development goals of a the north. My amendment goes a bit further host country system is not going to prevent and asks that the environmental standards be such investment. So we have here a program applied to avoid situations such as the Ok to use Australian taxpayers’ money in the Tedi and Bougainville disputes. I will con- name of development to guarantee corporate tinue my remarks during the committee stage. investors against risks and loss in such oper- Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant ations. Do people really wonder why I do not Treasurer) (10.20 a.m.)—I rise to speak on consider this kind of bill non-controversial? the Multilateral Investment Guarantee Agency Occasionally, people speaking for their Bill and to briefly sum up the second reading party—these are parties which blindly support debate. We welcome some of the remarks, but the free trade agenda—accuse me of not we do not agree with some of the other wanting poorer nations to develop. I think it remarks that have been made. is fine for them to develop. I do not consider Let me say that, though I welcome the it development when poverty forces poor general comments by Senator Sherry, I think people to live in working conditions which it is a pity that an otherwise fairly good imperil the life and health of workers, their speech was diminished by the pathetic pot families and children in order to bolster shots he took at the Treasurer (Mr Costello). corporate profits and make one gang of It is fascinating with the Labor Party in that corporate capitalists slightly more competitive it has a shadow Treasurer in the other place so that they can try to take over the market who will not ask the Treasurer a question. from their mates and win the market share or When he raises his head, he is promptly sent profitability game. That is what it is—it is a packing. So what happens is that we have a game for them. former shadow assistant Treasurer getting up I do not consider it development when this in this chamber and taking pathetic pot shots destructive exploitation of the poor and at the Treasurer. developing countries is used as a club to What we do know is that Senator Sherry destroy living and working standards in so- will never have the chance to move this called developed countries, including our nation on any particular issue, and I make no country, or to prohibit any discrimination concession on that topic. I think that I said he which recognises the cost imposed by allow- diminished an otherwise useful contribution ing exploitation of people and nature to create to this debate with those earlier remarks. I am competitive advantage. sorry he is not in the chamber, because I was Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5909 going to take this opportunity—but I guess I provides a mechanism for responding to will take it later—to commiserate with the sensitive policy matters. As I said, we will not fact that he was dropped as shadow assistant be supporting Senator Margetts’s amendment. Treasurer. I guess I will save those commiser- Senator Sherry asked if I could confirm the ations for another debate. It is a bit of a pity figures he raised. I am able to say that, as I that they keep on moving Senator Sherry think was outlined fairly clearly in the second around. They never seem to be able to find a reading speech, Australia will be providing place for him but, as I said, I will take the $2.45 million in cash, a further $2.45 million opportunity on another occasion to express as a promissory note, and the remainder of my regrets to him. Australian dollars—$19.6 million—on call. Of Senator Neal—I’d be careful! course, these Australian dollar amounts may Senator KEMP—I supported Senator fluctuate with changes in the Australian-US Sherry as shadow Assistant Treasurer—we dollar exchange rate. These US dollar like to have him in that position. We strongly amounts are the maximum authorised by the supported him there, Senator, so therefore bill, which reflects the convention establishing there is a degree of sincerity in my remarks. the MIGA. In conclusion, I commend this important bill to the chamber. Senator Neal—People in glasshouses shouldn’t throw stones. Question put: Senator KEMP—Senator, you were not in That the amendment (Senator Bourne’s)be the chamber for the start of this debate when agreed to. a pathetic little stone was thrown over here— The Senate divided. [10.29 a.m.] it has now been returned! You were not here (The President—Senator the Hon. Margaret for the start of the debate. Reid) The Multilateral Investment Guarantee Ayes ...... 9 Agency Bill 1996 is an important bill. Noes ...... 41 Membership of the MIGA will be of undoubt- —— ed benefit to Australia. The government will Majority ...... 32 not be supporting the second reading amend- —— ment which, I understand, Senator Bourne has AYES moved. Nor will we be supporting the amend- Allison, L. Bourne, V. * Brown, B. Kernot, C. ment which I understand will be moved by Lees, M. H. Margetts, D. Senator Margetts. Murray, A. Stott Despoja, N. All MIGA insured projects are reviewed to Woodley, J. ensure that they are financially sound and that NOES they satisfy World Bank environmental Alston, R. K. R. Bishop, M. standards and comply with the environmental Boswell, R. L. D. Calvert, P. H. * Campbell, I. G. Carr, K. laws of the host country. The MIGA conven- Chapman, H. G. P. Childs, B. K. tion does not give the MIGA the authority to Collins, J. M. A. Cook, P. F. S. get involved in domestic political issues, and Coonan, H. Cooney, B. so it does not. Crane, W. Crowley, R. A. Eggleston, A. Ferguson, A. B. Once Australia is a member of the MIGA, Foreman, D. J. Forshaw, M. G. it will have representation on the MIGA board Gibbs, B. Heffernan, W. of executive directors through the representa- Hill, R. M. Hogg, J. tive executive director at the bank. Australia Kemp, R. Knowles, S. C. would be able to raise any environmental Lightfoot, P. R. Lundy, K. concerns regarding MIGA operations in that Macdonald, I. Mackay, S. McKiernan, J. P. Minchin, N. H. context. Australia’s concerns about the envi- Neal, B. J. O’Brien, K. W. K. ronmental aspects of World Bank and Asian O’Chee, W. G. Patterson, K. C. L. Development Bank supported projects are Payne, M. A. Reid, M. E. already dealt with in this way, and that Reynolds, M. Sherry, N. 5910 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997

NOES ment or workers of poor ex-colony nations Synon, K. M. Tierney, J. because it violates their sovereign rights. Does West, S. M. sovereignty apply only when it is for main- * denotes teller taining high levels of exploitation and never Question so resolved in the negative. when it comes to social and environmental Original question resolved in the affirma- protection? tive. I am aware that this measure creates a Bill read a second time. guarantee only for non-commercial risks. My problem is that these are defined to cover In Committee virtually any regulatory action a nation might The bill. take to make a foreign investment more beneficial to it and any remedial measure it Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) might take in the case of something like the (10.33 a.m.)—I move: Bhopal disaster. This is irresponsible, particu- Clause 2, page 1 (lines 7 to 9), omit the clause, larly as it totally ignores the need to address substitute: the fact that, in the global market, competitive 2 Commencement advantages are created by the lack of consis- (1) Subject to subsection (2), this Act com- tent measures to ensure economic activities mences on a day to be fixed by Proclama- are ecologically sustainable and beneficial for tion. people. (2) A Proclamation is not to be made under It is particularly irresponsible because it subsection (1) until the Council estab- lished under Article 30 of the Convention dovetails efforts through the World Trade amends Article 12 of the Convention to Organisation to undermine any unilateral provide for the following requirements for action by nations to ensure that their imports, eligible investments: competing with products for which appropri- (a) compliance of the investment at least to ate environmental standards are developed, the standards on environmental protec- are not advanced in market terms simply tion, occupational health and safety, because they are produced or extracted and public health and safety found in unsustainably. We are not allowed to discri- regulation within the investor’s home country; and minate against unsustainably harvested tropi- cal timber. This is a disgrace. (b) compliance of the investment with all formal or internal criteria and guide- The measures are also particularly irrespon- lines of the World Bank on protection sible because they dovetail with efforts of the environment, ecological through the World Trade Organisation to sustainability, and social justice, as if undermine any unilateral action by nations to it were a World Bank loan. ensure that their domestic products are not The Multilateral Investment Guarantee Agen- subject to unfair competition based on the cy is subject to an international covenant. We exploitation of child labour, bonded labour or therefore cannot amend it or any of its claus- prison labour such as that of the notorious es, except for the commencement. The only Chinese laogai camps. Political and social options available to us are to accept this or prisoners are forced to work for many years reject it. making hardware and other products, includ- I give notice now that, unless my amend- ing diamond brand products, that flood our ment is passed, I will oppose the bill. I do not hardware stores. believe in giving private sector for profit We have been prevented from dealing investment any guarantees unless there is a unilaterally on these issues, which are basic responsible development agenda. I do not issues of global responsibility and human believe in undermining the sovereign right of rights. Now we are preventing nations from nations to effectively decide on regulation and effectively attempting to regulate foreign management of foreign investment when we investment. Make no mistake: a nation may claim that we can do nothing for the environ- still be allowed to do something like freeze Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5911 assets, but this will be fairly ineffective if the Let me remind honourable senators that assets are guaranteed by an international these assurances, these standards, that have agency like MIGA. This is a corporate agen- been agreed by the United Nations come very cy, not a development agency. It has nothing slowly over a long period of time and Aus- whatsoever to do with decreasing poverty. tralia, with all of the other nations who are The international labour standards issue is members of the United Nations, has been part a large one. The agenda of the major interna- of this process. It is not something that we are tional agencies—the World Trade Organisa- imposing on other nations; it is something tion, the International Monetary Fund and the that the nations of the world in the United World Bank—are all in opposition to it. My Nations have agreed to. There is a war of amendment would say that, before even world values going on. I know which side I thinking of supporting this covenant, Australia am on, and I commend my amendment to the should at the very least ensure that it is in Senate. accord with the very basic guidelines and Senator BOURNE (New South Wales) criteria of the World Bank designed to ensure (10.39 a.m.)—The Democrats will be support- that development is not destructive. ing Senator Margetts’s amendment, which is very similar to ours. We live in hope that the Before Australia supports this covenant, we next time we go for the same thing we will should ensure that the covenant requires get it. corporations to use good environmental management technology and practices and Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant should use decent public and occupational Treasurer) (10.39 a.m.)—I want to make a health and safety measures, as it does in few brief remarks on the comments that were developed countries. This would apply equally raised by Senator Margetts. I am on the side to all corporations wanting a MIGA guarantee of world development. I am on the side of to all competitors seeking that protection for trying to improve the living standards of investment. Of course it is not giving anybody developing countries. That is why I am an unfair advantage unless they wish to supporting this bill and the initiative this bill operate outside that. It is a measure designed underwrites. In my second reading remarks I to ensure that free investment in a global indicated the reasons why we will not be economy, if it is to be considered develop- supporting this amendment. ment, must raise the level of protection within Progress reported. developing countries, not translating to an excuse for corporations to lower their techni- CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION cal standards of safety and protection. (ELECTION) BILL 1997 I see this covenant as part of the push for Consideration of House of more free ranging corporate power at the Representatives Message expense of civil and political power. I see it as part of the battle between a vision of Consideration resumed from 27 August of competitive economic warfare with the win- House of Representatives message. ners writing the rules and a vision of human House of Representatives message— and humane development which includes providing for ecological survival. The inten- Schedule of the amendments made by the tion of this covenant is right in line with the Senate to which the House of Representatives World Trade Organisation, IMF and World has disagreed. Bank push for dominance of global capitalists. (1) Page 1 (after line 11), after the title, insert: My amendment seeks to subvert this covenant Preamble and make it part of the struggle represented This Act provides the necessary framework for by the United Nations, UNCTAD, and the election of delegates to a Constitutional UNCED push to ensure that all people on Convention to represent the views of all earth can live sustainably in peace and with Australians about possible changes to the material sufficiency. Constitution. 5912 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997

The Convention will provide a forum for 41A Nomination fee to be forfeited in certain debate about: cases . whether the present Constitution should be (1) The nomination fee paid by or on behalf of changed so that Australia might become a a candidate is to be retained pending the republic with its own Head of State; and ballot, and after the ballot must be returned in accordance with subsection (2) or (3), if . what republican models should be put to the the candidate is elected, or: voters of Australia as elements of the choice between the present system and a new (a) if the total number of votes polled in the system; and candidate’s favour as first preferences is at least 4% of the total number of votes . the timeframe and the appropriate circum- polled in favour of the candidates in the stances for considering change. election as first preferences; or If it is to be successful, it is vital that the (b) in a case where the name of the candidate Constitutional Convention reflects the diverse is included in a group—if the sum of the experiences, backgrounds, views, beliefs and votes polled in favour of each of the aspirations of the Australian people. To that candidates included in the group as first end, the appointment of non-parliamentary preferences is at least 4% of the total delegates to the Convention should reflect the number of votes polled in favour of the diversity of our nation. Furthermore, it is to be candidates in the election as first prefer- hoped that all groups standing for election to ences; the Convention will draw upon our diversity otherwise it is forfeited to the Commonwealth. when nominating candidates. In particular, and in light of the fact that the Constitutional (2) If the nomination fee was paid by a person Conventions of the 1890s which led to Feder- other than the candidate, the nomination fee ation were composed entirely of male deleg- must be returned to the person who paid it, ates, it is to be hoped that all groupings will or to a person authorised in writing by the provide for the fair and equal representation of person who paid it. women. (3) In all other cases, the nomination fee must (2) Clause 11, page 6 (lines 3 and 4), omit the be returned to the candidate, or to a person clause. authorised in writing by the candidate. (11) Clause 52, page 26 (lines 13 to 21), omit (3) Clause 13, page 7 (line 8), omit paragraph (c), paragraphs (c), (d) and (e), substitute: substitute: (c) on Part A, the names of groups notified (c) the day of the poll;(4) Page 7 (after line under section 29 (unless the request has 13), after clause 13, insert: been refused by the AEO) arranged in the 13A Enrolment to be encouraged etc. order determined under section 58; and (d) on Part B, the full names of candidates As soon as practicable after the commencement arranged in the order determined under of this Act, the Electoral Commissioner must section 58; and take all reasonable steps to ensure that the Rolls to be used for the purposes of the Act are (e) the material that would be required by reviewed and that eligible persons who are not subsections 55(1) and (2) to be printed on enrolled are encouraged to enrol. the ballot-paper if the ballot-paper were being printed. (5) Clause 14, page 7 (line 17), omit "*closing". (12) Clause 54, page 27 (lines 6 to 9), omit (6) Clause 16, page 8 (line 9), omit "*closing". paragraph (c), substitute: (7) Clause 29, page 14 (line 19), omit "*first (c) the names of each of the candidates are candidate", substitute "candidates". to be printed opposite the name of the candidate’s group requested under section (8) Clause 34, page 17 (lines 4 to 6), omit sub- 29 if that request has not been refused clause (1), substitute: under section 31; and (1) A group, or an *ungrouped candidate, may (13) Clause 55, page 28 (lines 1 to 30), omit submit a statement under this Division for paragraphs (a) to (i), substitute: inclusion in the material to be made avail- able to electors. the names of groups notified under section 29 (unless the request has been refused by the (10) Page 22 (after line 5), after clause 41, AEO) arranged in the order determined under insert: section 58 are to be printed. Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5913

(14) Clause 55, page 28 (line 32) to page 29 of the Commonwealth, a State or a Terri- (line 6), omit paragraphs (a), (b) and (c), tory Parliament; and substitute: (c) every public library in Australia; and (a) the names of all candidates are to be (d) every post office in Australia. printed, with the names of candidates by whom requests have been made under (2) The Electoral Commissioner must cause section 28 being printed in groups on the such numbers of copies of the pamphlet of ballot-paper in accordance with those candidate statements as the Electoral Com- requests (unless the request has been missioner considers appropriate to be sent refused by the AEO); and to any person or organisation who asks the AEO or a DRO for a copy or copies of the (b) the names of grouped candidates are to be pamphlet. printed before the names of ungrouped candidates; and (21) Clause 66, page 37 (lines 1 to 12), omit the clause. (c) subject to paragraph (b), the order in which the names of grouped and (22) Clause 67, page 37 (lines 13 to 15), omit ungrouped candidates are to be printed is the clause. the same as the order determined under (23) Clause 68, page 38 (line 3) to page 39 (line section 58 for the purposes of section 54; 3), omit the clause, substitute: and 68 Certain provisions of CEA to apply (d) the names of each of the ungrouped In so far as is practicable, the following candidates are to be printed opposite the provisions of the CEA shall be applied to the name the candidate requested under conduct of elections under this Act: section 30 (if that request has not been refused under section 31); and (a) sections 182 to 184, 184A, 184B, 185, 185B, 185C, 186 to 195, 195A and 196 (e) where similarity in the names of 2 or to 200 (postal voting); more candidates is likely to cause confu- sion those names are to be arranged in (b) sections 200A to 200K, 201 and 202 (pre- the same way, and with the same descrip- poll voting); tion or addition, as they are arranged, (c) section 203 (arrangements for polling); described or added to under paragraph (d) section 204 (substitute presiding officer); 54(h); and (e) section 205 (use of licensed premises as (f) except as otherwise provided by the polling booth); Electoral Commissioner, a square must be printed opposite the name of each candi- (f) section 206 (separate voting compart- date. ments); (15) Clause 57, page 29 (lines 16 to 20), omit (g) section 207 (ballot-boxes); the clause. (h) section 211 (group voting tickets); (16) Clause 60, page 33 (lines 5 to 27), omit the (i) section 215 (ballot-papers to be initial- clause. led); (17) Heading to Division 1, page 35 (lines 3 and (j) section 216 (group voting tickets to be 4), omit the heading, substitute: displayed); Division 1—Distribution of candidate statements (k) section 217 (scrutineers at the polling); (18) Clause 62, page 35 (lines 5 to 12), omit the (l) section 218 (provisions relating to scruti- clause. neers); (19) Clause 64, page 35 (line 16) to page 36 (m) section 220 (the polling); (line 19), omit the clause. (n) section 222 (where electors may vote); (20) Clause 65, page 36 (lines 20 to 25), omit the clause, substitute: (o) section 223 (interpretation); 65 Issue of candidate statements (p) sections 224 to 226, 226A and 227 (mo- bile booths); (1) The Electoral Commissioner must cause copies of the pamphlet of candidate state- (q) section 228 (declaration votes); ments to be sent, by post or other means to: (r) section 229 (questions to be put to voter); (a) the office of each DRO; and (s) section 231 (right of elector to receive (b) each office, whether in a parliamentary ballot-paper); building or otherwise, of every Member (t) section 232 (voters to be recorded); 5914 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997

(u) section 233 (votes to be marked in pri- (36) Clause 98, page 58 (lines 3 to 5), omit the vate); clause. (v) section 234 (assistance to certain voters); (37) Clause 99, page 58 (line 6), omit "further". (w) section 235 (provisional votes); (38) Clause 99, page 58 (line 7), omit "further". (x) section 238 (spoilt ballot-papers); (39) Clause 99, page 58 (lines 11 to 13), omit (y) sections 241 to 243 (adjournment of paragraphs (2)(a) and (b), substitute: polling); (a) produce all the ballot-papers received by (z) section 245 (compulsory voting); the DRO; and (za) sections 246 to 262 (polling in Antarcti- (40) Clause 99, page 58 (lines 17 to 20), omit ca). paragraph (e), substitute: (24) Clause 69, page 39 (lines 7 to 18), omit (e) arrange the unrejected ballot-papers so subclauses (2) and (3), substitute: scrutinised under the names of the respec- (2) If the person chooses to vote on Part A of tive groups or candidates (depending on the ballot-paper, he or she must mark his or whether the voter has completed Part A or her vote on the ballot-paper by writing the Part B of the ballot-paper), by placing in number 1 in the square opposite the name parcels: of one group and only one group. (i) under the name of each group all the (3) If the person chooses to vote on Part B of ballot-papers on which a vote is indicated the ballot-paper, he or she: for that group; and (a) must mark his or her vote on the ballot- (ii) under the name of each candidate all the paper by writing the number 1 in the ballot-papers on which a first preference square opposite the name of the candidate is indicated for that candidate; and for whom the person votes as his or her (41) Clause 99, page 58 (lines 21 to 27), omit first preference; and paragraph (f), substitute: (b) must mark his or her vote on the ballot- (f) count the votes given for each group and the paper by writing the numbers 2, 3, 4 (and first preference votes given for each candi- so on as the case requires) in the squares date on such ballot-papers and *transmit the opposite the names of all the remaining following information in an expeditious candidates so as to indicate the order of manner to the AEO: the person’s preference for them. (25) Clause 70, page 39 (lines 22 to 24), omit (i) the number of votes given for each group; the clause. and (26) Clause 72, page 40 (line 23) to page 41 (ii) the number of first preference votes given (line 11), omit the clause. for each candidate; and (27) Clause 73, page 41 (line 12) to page 42 (iii) the total number of ballot-papers rejected (line 16), omit the clause. as informal; and (28) Part 6, page 43 (line 2) to page 51 (line 4), (42) Clause 99, page 59 (lines 16 and 17), omit omit the Part. "determine the quota, transfer value or order, or identify the candidate", substitute (29) Clause 90, page 52 (lines 6 to 8), omit "or determine the quota, transfer value or subclause (2). order". (30) Heading to Division 2, page 54 (line 2), (43) Clause 100, page 69 (line 9), omit "candi- omit the heading, substitute: date", substitute "group". Division 2—The scrutiny processes (44) Clause 100, page 69 (line 10), omit "a first (31) Clause 94, page 54 (lines 3 to 11), omit the preference is indicated for that candidate", clause. substitute "a vote is indicated for that (32) Clause 95, page 54 (line 12) to page 57 group". (line 14), omit the clause. (45) Clause 100, page 69 (lines 24 and 25), omit (33) Clause 96, page 57 (lines 15 to 17), omit subparagraph (g)(i), substitute: the clause. (i) the number of votes given for each group on (34) Clause 97, page 57 (lines 18 to 21), omit ballot-papers referred to in paragraph (b); the clause. and (35) Heading to Division 3, page 58 (line 2), (46) Clause 101, page 71 (lines 16 to 22), omit omit the heading. the clause. Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5915

(47) Clause 103, page 73 (lines 12 to 20), omit (55) Clause 122, page 86 (line 23) to page 87 subclause (5). (line 6), omit subclauses (2) and (3). (48) Clause 103, page 73 (line 25) to page 74 (56) Clause 131, page 95 (lines 17 to 21), omit (line 13), omit paragraphs (6)(b) and (c), the clause. substitute: (57) Clause 132, page 96 (lines 1 to 6), omit the (b) a ballot-paper is taken to be Part B invalid clause. unless: (58) Clause 134, page 96 (lines 11 to 17), omit (i) it has a vote indicated on it for at least the clause. one candidate; and (59) Schedule 1, clause 1, page 125 (lines 13 to (ii) the same mark is not indicated for any 26), omit the definitions of Antarctica, other candidate; and Antarctic elector, and Antarctic Returning (c) for the purposes of paragraph (b) any mark- Officer. ing on a ballot-paper of a vote for a de- (60) Schedule 1, clause 1, page 126 (lines 1 to ceased candidate is to be ignored. 5), omit the definition of Assistant Antarctic (49) Clause 105, page 75 (line 4), omit Returning Officer. "*grouped candidate", substitute "group". (61) Schedule 1, clause 1, page 126 (lines 15 and (50) Clause 105, page 75 (line 6), omit 16), omit the definition of candidate num- "candidate’s". ber. (51) Clause 105, page 75 (lines 7 to 23), omit (62) Schedule 1, clause 1, page 126 (lines 20 to subclauses (2) and (3). 22), omit the definition of certificate enve- lope. (52) Clause 106, page 75 (line 24) to page 76 (line 26), omit the clause, substitute: (63) Schedule 1, clause 1, page 126 (line 23), definition of close of the poll, omit "clos- 106 Ballot-papers marked on Part B ing". (1) Subject to subsections (2) and (3), if a (64) Schedule 1, clause 1, page 126 (lines 24 and ballot-paper has been marked on Part B, the 25), omit the definition of closing day. voter is, for the purposes of sections 99 and 100, taken to have expressed preferences for (65) Schedule 1, clause 1, page 128 (lines 26 and the candidates as follows: 27), omit the definition of preference square. (a) a first preference is taken to have been indicated for the candidate beside whose (66) Schedule 1, clause 1, page 129 (line 9), name the number 1 has been written; definition of scrutiny, omit "subsection 90(2)", substitute "Part 7". (b) a second preference is taken to have been indicated for the candidate beside whose (67) Schedule 1, clause 1, page 129 (lines 18 and name the number 2 has been written; 19), omit the definition of vote certificate. and so on. (68) Schedule 1, clause 1, page 129 (line 20), omit the definition of voting material (2) If the same number has been written beside the names of 2 or more candidates, no House of Representatives reasons for preference is taken to have been indicated disagreeing to Senate amendments 1 to 8 and for either or any of those candidates, nor for 10 to 68— any candidates against whose names higher numbers have been written. Senate Amendment Number 1 (3) For the purposes of this section, any mark- The Amendment proposes a preamble be included ing on a ballot-paper of a preference for a which specifies the role of the Convention and the deceased candidate referred to in section appointment and election of delegates to the 108 is to be ignored. Convention. The House of Representatives does not accept the Amendment, as it does not reflect the (53) Clause 108, page 77 (lines 9 to 13), omit purpose and scope of the Bill. paragraphs (a), (b) and (c), substitute: Senate Amendments Numbers 2-8 and 11-68 (a) of the inclusion on the ballot-paper or the *list of candidates of the name of the These Amendments focus on the method of voting deceased candidate; or for half of the delegates to the Constitutional Convention which will meet for 10 days in Decem- (b) of the marking of a preference opposite ber 1997 to consider the question of whether or not that name. Australia should become a republic. The Amend- (54) Clause 122, page 86 (line 19), omit ", being ments require that voting in the election be by a an officer other than an Antarctic officer,". compulsory attendance ballot, which will make 5916 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997

Australians who choose not to vote in the election follow the logic of the Labor Party, but it for delegates liable to prosecution and add up to seems to be holding out on some spurious $20 million to the cost. objection that this is a sort of stalking horse The Amendments also propose that the election be for non-compulsory voting for the rest of conducted along the lines of a Senate election. In Australia. There is a very big difference in light of the large number of candidates which could contest this election (possibly exceeding 200-300 voting for a government—voting for 148 candidates in New South Wales) a pure Senate members of parliament, voting for 76 sena- "style" election would make it difficult for electors tors—that is going to stay in office for three to vote for someone other than a group, and would years and govern the nation. If that were the extend the time needed to count the vote. proposal I would not be supporting non- Accordingly, the House of Representatives opposes compulsory voting, but that is not the propo- these Amendments (Numbers 2-8 and 11-68). sal. Senate Amendment Number 10 The proposal is that we elect 36 delegates This Amendment provides that candidates’ $500 to the convention and that the convention sit nomination fee should be returned if the candidate for approximately 10 days at some time in the is elected or the candidate/candidate group receives future. There is a huge difference between at least 4% of the total number of votes. Given the compulsory and non-compulsory voting for a Government will be providing a tax deduction for election expenses up to a limit of $1,000 to candi- convention and for the election of a govern- dates, whether successful or not, the House of ment. Therefore, I have no hesitation in Representatives does not accept Amendment supporting this bill. I am on the record as a Number 10. very strong supporter of compulsory voting. Senator BOSWELL (Queensland—Leader We went to the election and we came up of the National Party of Australia in the with a convention that would give fair propor- Senate) (10.42 a.m.)—Last night when the tional representation to all Australians. The debate was interrupted I was pointing out that opposition’s obstruction to this is very hard to the National Party is very much in favour of understand. I believe they are denying the the Constitutional Convention (Election) Bill people a say in the progress of the Constitu- 1997, although it is well known that the tional Convention. They are denying the National Party opposes voluntary voting and opportunity for democracy to work. the majority of the party and the party’s The latest proposal of the Australian Demo- position is for the continuation of the consti- crats is to have a Senate committee go out tution as it stands at the moment. I put those and take evidence right around Australia. I two issues very firmly on the record. thought that was an absolutely stupid idea, The government went to an election with a and I thought it was one that only the Demo- very clear proposal that we have a convention crats would come up with. But not to be and that the convention be made up of a outdone by stupidity, the Labor Party pro- number of elected delegates—a number of posed exactly the same thing this morning. It women, a number of Aboriginals, a number just shows that you really do need the big of young people; a good mix representing all man on the frontbench. I do not think he sections of the Australian community. I think would allow you to get into so much trouble. the government has been very honest. It is no Senator Robert Ray is a good tactician. If he secret where the Prime Minister’s position is was on the frontbench, I would find it very on the constitution. He has continued to difficult to see how this would ever happen. progress this bill, although he could have very If the proposal of the Senate inquiry is to easily said, ‘All bets are off. We have put it work, where is the appropriation going to up twice; it has been rejected twice so just let come from to go to a referendum, or to put it disappear into the ether.’ But he has not. He the yes or no case, or to have the election? It has met his commitments, not once, not twice is just a nonsense. It is just a grandstanding but now three times. nonsense that will absolutely drive this debate The Labor Party seems to be holding out. nowhere. The objection of the Labor Party to I cannot quite understand this. I usually can non-compulsory voting or voluntary voting is Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5917 very hard to understand when they elect their devaluing the currency of Senate inquiries own delegates on non-compulsory voting or with this sort of situation. I support the bill on voluntary voting. ATSIC delegates are elected behalf of the National Party. I hope Senator by voluntary voting. Senator Nick Minchin Harradine can bring some sense into the nominated a few other points, particularly that debate. Senator Kernot gets elected to her leadership Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (10.51 of the Australian Democrats by a voluntary a.m.)—I have been agonising over the Consti- vote of all members. tutional Convention (Election) Bill 1997with In short, it is very difficult to understand colleagues in the Greens party both in Tas- where the Labor Party and the Democrats are mania and the mainland for the last week. We coming from on this issue. It is a denial of have twice put to the government proposals what was put forward in the policy of the which would have allowed the convention to then opposition that we would have this proceed with very minor concessions by the convention when we gained government. It is government. I spoke with the Prime Minister a convention that will appoint 40 parlia- (Mr Howard) two days ago about this and he mentary delegates made up of 20 state and was adamant that they would brook no condi- territory delegates and 20 federal parlia- tions whatever. The strong impression I mentary delegates, and 36 non-parliamentary gained in those talks I had with him and his delegates including groups such as Aborigines colleagues, despite their denials, is that they and Torres Strait Islanders and representatives do not want this legislation to pass and that from local governments, and at least 10 will they do not want the republic to progress. be between the age of 18 and 25. In my talks with the Greens around the So that is a pretty broad church that will be country, there have been great misgivings able to get in there and debate this issue if about whether I should vote to ensure that the this bill goes through. It will be able to come convention does proceed. I thank everybody up with whether or not Australia should who has expressed those misgivings but who become a republic, which republic model have ultimately given me the support to make should be put to the electorate to consider a decision based on a consensus coming from against the status quo, and the time frame and the Greens around the country. the circumstances under which change may be We have in the Senate at the moment the considered. ranks of those opposed to the republic sup- I think that is very commendable. It should porting this legislation and the ranks of those go to a convention where a whole number of supporting the republic opposing this legisla- issues can be debated by people that are able tion. They are the ranks of absurdity. Some- to put some research in. That will no doubt be body needed to break from those ranks, and reported on by all the major newspapers and I have decided to do so. I have decided to do television stations. That message will go out. so in the interests of this nation because No doubt there will be a case put for the Australians want a republic. They want to be constitution to remain the same. There will involved in the path to the republic. They also be a case put for the republic to take want a republic as we move into the new place, but at least it will be an informed century. They want a republic for this nation. debate by all sectors of the community. They want a republic for the Olympics. To The proposal that the Democrats and the pass this opportunity is to kill those aspira- Labor Party are putting up today will be just tions of the Australian people. I will take it a Senate inquiry going around Australia. It on my shoulders when the critics come out, will have no support from the government at but I firmly believe that, in the interests of all. It will be run by the opposition. If this is Australians, it was necessary for me to change to be successful, one way or the other, it has and to support this legislation, and I will be to have the government behind it. It is a doing so by supporting this motion. complete and utter nonsense to go out there In doing so, I want to say this: the one with a Senate inquiry. You are absolutely thing that the debate and the intransigence on 5918 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 both sides of this Senate indicates is that we I feel strongly that we will not see a change need to give the republic back to the people. to the voluntary voting system. I note that I For all its shortcomings—and they are con- am not the only one who has changed posi- siderable—this convention is a means of tion on this. The Labor Party has as well. The doing that. I hope that the assent to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr Beazley), as convention will mobilise all Australians for or late as March, when this legislation was against the republic so that they come forward coming before the parliament, said that he in good faith for this country, express their would not block this legislation— opinions and become involved in this debate, shortcomings as it had. Labor is now blocking not simply leave it to the delegates but ensure it, and we Australian Greens are opening a that their voices are heard as well. way for it to proceed. One of the great stumbling blocks put in the We have to remember also that half the way of assent to this legislation has been the delegates for this convention are to be ap- formulation post-election by the government pointed—no vote at all, not even a free vote. of a postal vote system. I spoke strongly Maybe there has been too little emphasis on against this matter in the Senate when it was the shortcomings of that. I believe that all the considered before. I have not changed my delegates to this convention ought to be voted mind about the fact that there ought to be a for. full and compulsory vote. We had the situa- As to the republic, we Greens are concerned tion of two competing principles, both held that the major parties have their focus too strongly by the Australian Greens. One was narrow. We want to see this opportunity that we should be moving expeditiously to a seized to make changes beyond the head of full and rounded republic. The other was that state for Australia as it moves into the next we should protect the system of compulsory century. Why should we not take this oppor- voting, which is so important to Australian tunity to recognise and celebrate the indigen- elections. ous nation of Australian peoples at the head We have to remember that this convention of the constitution? Why should we not take is an advisory body with essentially no this opportunity to recognise local government powers, except those galvanised through the in our constitution? Why should we not make Australian people and through the republic. this the opportunity to take into the constitu- We have to remember the impulse, the power tion a bill of rights and responsibilities for all of that voice, on government to act and the Australians, for this nation of ours, forever- promise of the government that there would more. be plebiscites or a referendum if there is Why should we not recognise the responsi- consensus before the year 2000. It is not a bility of the nation and its national parliament parliament that is being elected. They are not and government for the environment of this people who can make definitive decisions. It country and put it into the constitution? It is a once-off constitutional convention. deserves to be there. These are just some of In those circumstances, and knowing that the matters which ought to be on the agenda there is no way that this government, or any of the constitutional convention and, as an government in the foreseeable future, has a outcome of that, put to the people of Australia hope of changing the compulsory voting in the plebiscite or referendum that follows. system while this Senate has the configuration Indeed, why should we not take up the that it does, including the National Party, and finding of this parliamentary committee that opposes such a voting system, it became clear section 44 of the constitution should be that the republic should not stumble on that altered to ensure that all Australians have a impediment placed there by this unwilling fair opportunity to stand for parliament? I Howard government. I am going to support think most Australians do not recognise that this principle, this once-only opportunity in more than a million citizens are denied that this period of conservative governments, to opportunity because section 44 puts a ques- progress the republic. tion mark over people being able to stand for Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5919 parliament if they have dual nationality or if bill would provide a forum for discussion on they are recipients of an office of profit, whether the present constitution should be including, potentially, even pensions. That is changed to a republican one; in particular, blocking their way to being able to stand for which republican model should be put to the office. electorate to consider against the status quo; These considerations have loomed hard and and, in what time frame and under what high in my consideration. I feel strongly about circumstances might any change be con- this. I feel it is the right decision. I feel it sidered. moves the roadblock. I again thank my Those of you who have studied my colleagues in the Australian Greens for com- speeches on the convention—I suppose none ing with me down this difficult path to this of you have done that, and that indicates your right outcome for this nation and for 18 sense—would find that over the years I have million Australians. been concerned to ensure the preservation of Senator HARRADINE (Tasmania) (11.02 parliamentary democracy as we know it. a.m.)—The Senate is debating whether we There should not be further moves—as was should insist upon our amendments to the proposed by a frontbencher of the Labor Party Constitutional Convention (Election) Bill. The at the time—to introduce into the constitution motion that is currently before the chamber is: by referendum, for example, a bill of rights or measures that would take away from this That the committee does not insist upon its amendments which the House of Representatives parliament the duties to be performed on has insisted on disagreeing to. behalf of those who elect us. For example, that would be a broadly based bill of rights I would first of all like to acknowledge the which would be able to be interpreted by very fine speeches that have been made not judges. This country would then have a only over the last couple of days in the system of judge made laws, as there is to a Senate and the House of Representatives but certain extent in the United States at this time. also on the previous occasion that this matter came before us. A considerable amount of Those are the things that concern me. The thought has gone into all of those speeches. issue as is put forward on the agenda—it is a They are interesting reading and have assisted limited agenda; I think the people of Australia me considerably. I believe everybody is believe the agenda should be considered interested in who should be the head of state before the year 2000 or around about the year in Australia. The constitutional convention 2000—is, namely, who should be the head of that is proposed by the government is to state. That is a very important question. How consider that matter. The speech by Senator do we progress this matter? Certain proposals Minchin yesterday was a very strong speech have been suggested. Ultimately, the parlia- indicating the strength of view of the Prime ment is the organisation which will have to Minister (Mr Howard) and Senator Minchin determine the question that goes to the peo- and the cabinet about this particular question ple. It is the parliament’s prerogative—and, and about the right of the people to consider indeed, duty—to do that. If there is a consti- it. tutional convention, the parliament will no Last night Senator Margetts also made a doubt be assisted by what occurs at the deeply considered speech. That set me think- constitutional convention and in the lead-up ing a little bit about what matters would be to the constitutional convention. If not, a considered by a constitutional convention if suggestion has been made by both the opposi- such a constitutional convention or if a tion and the Australian Democrats that a parliamentary committee were to go around committee of the parliament should be estab- the place and consider other views. Senator lished. Margetts was saying that there are other My view is that at some stage that will matters to be considered which are not includ- need to take place. At some stage, members ed in the agenda in this bill. The agenda of of the parliament from all parties, and others the constitutional convention as set out in this in the parliament, should with goodwill 5920 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 consider what provisions ought to be included regard to the form for the outcome in these in a referendum bill. That will have to be matters. done at some stage. It has been put to me, Having regard to all those matters and the and people have said so in their speeches, that need to continue to have public debate about if there is no constitutional convention the the matter, I am inclined to support the puff will go out of the debate on the republic proposition that is currently before us: that we or who should be the head of state. Of course, not insist upon the amendments. However, the that is a matter which needs to be considered. matter that concerns most people about this is I am still concerned about the major questions the voting provision under this act. It is of that have been raised; that is, the precedent great concern not only to me but also to a that might occur as a result of the voting broad number of people—probably the ma- provisions in this particular bill. That is a jority of the people in the parliament. I expect very important problem, a very important that that is so. matter, that has been addressed by everyone in this chamber. It does concern me—I have Under those circumstances, I had discus- previously expressed my view on this. sions with a number of people about this. I am proposing an amendment to the current Another matter that does concern me motion before us—the amendment would be somewhat is the nature of the proposed at the end of the motion. It reads: composition of the convention. Frankly, as we "but the Senate is of the view that having regard to all know, in previous days when there was a the fact that the system of voluntary voting provid- constitutional convention there was equality ed for in the bill is for the election of delegates to of representation from the states. Clearly, the a specific Constitutional Convention for a limited government has got equality of representation and temporary purpose in special circumstances, the when it comes to politicians, but it does not system should not be seen as a precedent for have that equality of representation when it elections of members of parliament or for any other comes to those who will be elected and those ballots including referendums". who will be appointed. That does worry me That is the proposition that I am putting to a little bit because this is a specific conven- the Senate. I will at a later stage be moving tion for a specific purpose, but it is not a an amendment in the committee of the whole matter which weighs heavily on my mind. to amend the bill by inserting a declaratory statement that it is not the intention of the It is true that under section 128 of the parliament that the method of voting for constitution the Senate has the power to vote election under this act should be taken as a for a referendum bill and have that bill re- precedent. I do hope that that will receive the ferred to the House of Representatives. If the unanimous support of the parliament. It is, of House of Representatives rejects that legisla- course, for the government to say, but I tion, it is put to them again after three understand that the government would support months. If the House of Representatives the amendment to the motion currently before rejects it again, under the current provisions us and the amendment to the legislation itself. of the constitution the Governor-General may put the matter to the people for determination. Senator BOLKUS (South Australia) (11.16 a.m.)—It is quite obvious that the opposition There would be a constitutional argument would be disappointed with the turn of events as to whether the Governor-General could do over the last 12 or so hours. I have always that without the support of the government. In maintained, and I think people have always any event, you do need the support of the had a view of Senate predictability, that trying government, at least for questions to go to the to work the numbers in the Senate is a bit like people. Unless you get that support there will dancing with wolves. One can never be be a negative vote by the people. Look at the certain; one can never walk out of this place history of constitutional referenda in this knowing that the votes will be okay in the country. I would not like to be betting on the morning; and one can never work out what outcome of constitutional referenda, having will be critical in terms of debate. Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5921

I do want to acknowledge that Senator tralian Republican Movement and to ensure Harradine did, in fact, contact me and warn that some constructive thinking and construc- me about what he was thinking, as he has all tive agendas are set so that there is a continu- the way through, I must say, and I am appre- ation of pressure on government and so that ciative of that. We will vote for the Harradine we move towards a republic referendum amendments. Obviously, we think that it before the year 2000, and to realise the would be a bit naive to expect that they may aspirations of so many millions of Australian carry some weight in terms of an ongoing people. We will do it with the labour move- crusade by some to have voluntary voting ment, we will do it with the Republican imported into our system, but I do thank Movement and we will work with other Senator Harradine for the advance notice. organisations. It has always been our view I also take an opportunity to congratulate that the plebiscite was the most appropriate Malcolm Turnbull for a successful turnabout. way to go. With the authority of the Austral- We have worked very closely with him over ian people expressed in a plebiscite, that sort recent months; we have obviously disagreed of impetus would ensure that the republican over latter days, but the resilience of the road was more certain than the one proposed Republican Movement is such that we are by the government. But we do know why the mature enough to continue to work with each government is proposing this one; it is be- other in order to maximise the vote for the cause they do not share the conviction that republican cause into the future. Senator Australia should be a republic. Brown also has been discussing this with me. We will participate under the ARM umbrel- From time to time we lost contact, but I am la and within the ARM umbrella with other sure he will also be in the cart in terms of the organisations. But the focus now is also going quest for a republic. to be on the government to make this work— We obviously have some firm views about to make it work fairly and to make it work in the inadequacies of the government’s propo- a way that reflects the views of the over- sals for the procedures of the convention. We whelming majority of Australians who have do not think it is the best way to progress the made up their minds on whether Australia republican issue but, more importantly, we should become a republic. We will ensure think it is flawed in many ways. there is scrutiny so that the appointed mem- bers reflect fully the expressions of the Aus- We are now faced with the reality of an tralian public. We will scrutinise to ensure election for this convention. In this context, that all Australians have a fair and equal say the leader, myself and, in fact, every spokes- and that the process is fair. person for the opposition, has made it clear that, though we have always thought that this To ensure that the process is fair, I think process was flawed, we have said that if it that the ultimate test on what the government proceeds we would participate in the process is doing is twofold: they will have to reach as part of the Australian Republican Move- that benchmark of ensuring participation of all ment. We would not run our own tickets but the Australian people at all stages of the we would join with others who are like- process. We do not think that they can realise minded in wanting Australia to become a that, but that is the benchmark that has been republic, as well as encouraging involvement set for them by the Prime Minister (Mr from other groups. Under the broad umbrella Howard) and that is the benchmark that we of the ARM, with Democrats, with members believe should be the appropriate one and we of the Liberal Party, with Independents, with will ensure that they are tested against it. Greens and so on, we would work to maxi- The second benchmark against which they mise the outcome. That, of course, will still will be tested is the fairness of the process. I be our position with the passing of this think the ultimate test there is that the process legislation. should and must deliver an outcome which Despite that disappointment, we will be in does reflect the overwhelming support by the cart to maximise the return for the Aus- Australians for Australia to become an inde- 5922 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 pendent republic by or around the year 2000. advance that the proposal would be rejected They are the two tests that you have set for by the government. This is a precedent. yourself, Senator Minchin, and they are the Because we consider it a precedent we will be two tests that we have set for you as well, voting against both of Senator Harradine’s and we will ensure scrutiny through the amendments. process. Senator MINCHIN (South Australia— This convention will now be held next year. Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister) There is likely to be an election next year as (11.25 a.m.)—I indicate at the outset that the well. I think it is important that this election government is prepared to accept Senator be held in the lead-up to a general election. Harradine’s amendments to the motion I The closer the better, as far as the opposition moved at the beginning of the committee is concerned, because for us it will focus stage. As I have repeatedly said, we are people’s attention on a clear distinction dealing with this particular election entirely between the unity on our side of politics for on its merits. We have pleaded with the ALP a republic and the disharmony, disunity and and the Democrats to see it in those terms and disagreement on the government side in terms to examine electoral systems based on the of a republic. particular circumstances. This is an election In the pre-election 12-month period pressure of delegates to attend a convention to discuss will be on the government to ensure that the the question of whether or not Australia process is fair and it does not fall apart and becomes a republic. We are not electing a that those millions of people who have moved parliament; we are not electing a government. addresses will be contacted and will be able In those circumstances, as is the case with so to understand the new system of voting that many other organisations in Australia, the the government is proposing. The burden is most appropriate method is a voluntary postal now on the government. We are very disap- ballot. We have done that purely on its pointed with the outcome. We have been merits. thinking very hard about how to proceed in The argument that has been advanced in the event that this legislation got through. We this chamber repeatedly that this is somehow will go back now to work with the Republi- some kind of Trojan Horse has always been can Movement to ensure that the outcome that nonsense. Only this parliament can change the the Australian people want is reflected in this Commonwealth Electoral Act to the previous process. position that elections be voluntary. The Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) Commonwealth government has no proposi- (11.24 a.m.)—The Australian Democrats have tion for the parliament to do that. If that listened to the speeches of the Tasmanian question ever arises it should be dealt with on Green, Senator Brown, and the Tasmanian its merits and it would be a decision for this Independent, Senator Harradine, and have not parliament alone. We have always asked the been persuaded by their arguments. Senator chamber to consider the question of the Minchin, we recognise that you have won the voting system for the election of delegates day. You have negotiated and achieved the entirely on its merits and therefore we have outcome that you desire. I hope and the no difficulty in accepting Senator Harradine’s Australian Democrats hope that the result will amendment to this motion. indeed be a good one for the Australian I express my gratitude to Senator Harradine people. The Australian Democrats will vote to and Senator Brown for their decision to now insist that the Senate amendments be carried support this motion and presumably the bill. despite the fact that we have lost the day. That means that the government and the Turning to Senator Harradine’s two circulat- Australian people can now proceed to have an ed amendments, it is our view that this elec- election of delegates and to have a conven- tion will be a precedent and that those amend- tion. We would hope to have the election in ments are not only naive but also remind us the latter part of this year and to have the of the Telstra naivety where it was known in convention itself in the first half of next year. Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5923

It is quite true, as many in this chamber a convention if we were not sincere in want- have said, that the coalition is not committed ing something constructive to come out of it. to Australia becoming a republic. We went to My great regret is that we could not achieve the Australian people saying that we thought this position at the end of June. If we had, we the current constitutional arrangements had would now be completing the election process served Australia extremely well and that the and moving towards a convention in Decem- case for change had not be made out. That ber. was a clear statement of our position. So to attack us for saying that we are not committed The obstruction we have faced in the Senate to a republic is a nonsense because we made on this question has meant a six-month delay our position quite clear and we got elected on in the process and, of course, it has meant that basis. that the whole issue was killed stone-dead by the hands of those who support a republic. As Despite that position, we put down a pro- Jeff Kennett quite rightly said during the cess which we believed would recognise the recess, this whole debate has been killed by fact that there are a many Australians who the republicans themselves. That is, of course, have a contrary view and who want to con- what panicked Mr Turnbull and the Republi- sider this question. We thought about it long can Movement into requesting the Senate to and hard and believe that the process we put change its position. up is the best way to involve the Australian people and to resolve the question of whether The issue completely disappeared because or not to become a republic and, if so, what the republicans in this chamber voted to kill sort of republic. The election process we have it off completely. So I think it has backfired in mind does give all Australians the oppor- badly on those who have advocated a change tunity to be involved, but on the principle that to a republic. I think the wiser ones have seen they will have the right to choose whether or the light and realise that, if we are to progress not to vote for delegates to the convention. this debate, we should get on with it. That is their fundamental democratic right. I am particularly disappointed by the posi- I think that the convention will be a terrific tion that the Labor Party and the Democrats national forum. It will be in Canberra, the have continued to take. They are going to nation’s capital. Australians from all over the vote against this for the third time. For parties country and from a wide range of back- that have actively campaigned for Australia to grounds, experiences and interests can come become a republic, it does seem extraordinary together to discuss these fundamental ques- that they would keep on insisting that the tions in, I hope and the government hopes, a process not proceed except according to their very constructive way. rules—an absolute objection to the procedures We will be asking the convention to discuss laid down by the government. the up-front question of whether or not Aus- You can legitimately say that you think that tralia should become a republic and then, if the election should be conducted under other so, what is the best republican model for rules and argue that case. But, at the end of Australia. I hope that supporters of the current the day, I would have thought that the arrangements, as I am, will constructively government of the nation, having listened to engage in that debate and discuss the question your arguments and rejected them, has the of which model is the best for Australia if we right to proceed to hold the convention based are to make the move and also to have the on the rules which it proposes. I accept that convention discuss the best timing and cir- in principle you are committed to compulsory cumstances under which such a change should voting—a principle that I think is wrong—but be made if it is to occur. to allow your obsession with forcing people We are quite sincere and positive in our to vote, to deny advancing the process of wanting this convention to be a success in discussing the question of the republic, seems that sense. We would not be going through very much the action of an ostrich sticking its this process of a major national election and head in the sand. 5924 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997

It is clear that Malcolm Turnbull has real- same—encouraging candidates to nominate ised how ridiculous that position is and has and to run for an election and ensuring that pleaded with you all to change your position. we have good constructive participation by all We are grateful that at least Senator Harradine Australians in this quite exciting process. I and Senator Brown have acted in a respon- think it is exciting. I think the election of sible manner in wanting to allow the process delegates and the convention itself will allow to proceed. that national forum to convene to discuss The arguments against allowing this legisla- these important questions. tion through simply have not been persuasive. Question put: It is one thing to come in and state a position of principle—that you do not like voluntary That the amendment (Senator Harradine’s)be voting—but to actually vote in a manner to agreed to. deny the government of the day the oppor- The committee divided. [11.39 a.m.] tunity to implement its policy on this matter (The Chairman—Senator S. M. West) does seem to us to be the kind of obstruction Ayes ...... 53 that Senator Kernot referred to in her speech Noes ...... 7 yesterday. —— The whole debate seems to have been Majority ...... 46 conducted on the basis that we are talking —— about changing the method of election of AYES parliamentarians—that has never been the Bishop, M. Bolkus, N. case. Why you cannot agree—in the way that Boswell, R. L. D. Brown, B. the parliament did in relation to the ATSIC Brownhill, D. G. C. Calvert, P. H. Campbell, I. G. Carr, K. elections with voluntary voting—that volun- Childs, B. K. Collins, J. M. A. tary postal voting is the most appropriate Conroy, S. Cook, P. F. S. method for delegates to a convention, who are Coonan, H. Cooney, B. there for only 10 days, completely escapes Crane, W. Crowley, R. A. me, particularly given that any change to the Denman, K. J. Eggleston, A. constitution will involve a compulsory attend- Ellison, C. Faulkner, J. P. Ferguson, A. B. Ferris, J ance ballot of all the Australian people. That Foreman, D. J. Forshaw, M. G. is the only way the constitution can be Gibbs, B. Gibson, B. F. changed, and there is no proposition to Harradine, B. Heffernan, W. * change that. Hill, R. M. Hogg, J. Kemp, R. Knowles, S. C. The Labor Party and the Democrats have Lightfoot, P. R. Lundy, K. been very pig-headed on this and have reflect- Macdonald, I. Macdonald, S. ed their unfortunate attitude of not wanting to Mackay, S. Margetts, D. cooperate at all and of trying to deny the McGauran, J. J. J. McKiernan, J. P. government the opportunity of trying to Minchin, N. H. Neal, B. J. implement a policy on which it was elected. O’Brien, K. W. K. Payne, M. A. Ray, R. F. Reid, M. E. In the event, I think they have locked them- Sherry, N. Synon, K. M. selves out of this debate. Despite their objec- Tierney, J. Troeth, J. tions and obstructions, I am grateful that we Vanstone, A. E. Watson, J. O. W. are able to proceed. West, S. M. I am pleased that Senator Bolkus, on behalf NOES of the ALP, has said that they will involve Allison, L. Bourne, V. * themselves in the debate. I trust the Demo- Kernot, C. Lees, M. H. crats will do the same. This national election Murray, A. Stott Despoja, N. deserves to have the support of all parties. We Woodley, J. should all be out there encouraging all Aus- * denotes teller tralians to exercise their right to vote—I will be doing that, and I look to you to do the Question so resolved in the affirmative. Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5925

Question put: (1) Clause 20, page 10 (after line 8), after sub- clause (1), insert: That the motion (Senator Minchin’s), as amend- ed, be agreed to. (1A) An *Assistant Returning Officer ap- pointed in respect of a place outside The committee divided. [11.47 a.m.] Australia must perform the functions (The Chairman—Senator S. M. West) and exercise the powers conferred on Ayes ...... 34 him or her by this Act subject to the directions of the Electoral Commission- Noes ...... 31 er and the AEO. —— Majority ...... 3 (3) Clause 55, page 28 (lines 32 and 33), omit —— paragraph (3)(a), substitute: AYES (a) the number of squares that must be Abetz, E. Boswell, R. L. D. printed is: Brown, B. Brownhill, D. G. C. (i) in the case of a ballot-paper for an Calvert, P. H. Campbell, I. G. election where the number of *deleg- Chapman, H. G. P. Coonan, H. ates to be elected is more than Crane, W. Eggleston, A. 9—equal to the number of delegates Ellison, C. Ferguson, A. B. to be elected; and Ferris, J Gibson, B. F. Harradine, B. Heffernan, W. * (ii) in any other case—9. Herron, J. Hill, R. M. (4) Clause 56, page 29 (lines 7 to 15), omit the Kemp, R. Knowles, S. C. clause, substitute: Lightfoot, P. R. Macdonald, I. Macdonald, S. MacGibbon, D. J. 56 Form of candidate’s name and other McGauran, J. J. J. Minchin, N. H. material on ballot-paper and list of candi- Patterson, K. C. L. Payne, M. A. dates Reid, M. E. Synon, K. M. Names of grouped candidates Tierney, J. Troeth, J. Vanstone, A. E. Watson, J. O. W. (1) The names of *grouped candidates stated in the candidate nominations under sub- NOES section 26(4) must be printed in type that Allison, L. Bishop, M. is uniform in size and style for all of Bolkus, N. Bourne, V. those names. Childs, B. K. Collins, J. M. A. Conroy, S. Cook, P. F. S. Names of ungrouped candidates Cooney, B. Crowley, R. A. (2) The names of *ungrouped candidates Evans, C. V. Faulkner, J. P. stated in the candidate nominations under Foreman, D. J. * Forshaw, M. G. subsection 26(4) must be printed in type Gibbs, B. Hogg, J. that is uniform in size and style for all of Kernot, C. Lees, M. H. those names. Lundy, K. Mackay, S. Margetts, D. McKiernan, J. P. Names groups have requested Murray, A. Neal, B. J. (3) The names that *groups have requested O’Brien, K. W. K. Ray, R. F. be printed opposite their names on ballot- Reynolds, M. Sherry, N. papers and the *list of candidates under Stott Despoja, N. West, S. M. section 29 must be printed in type that is Woodley, J. uniform in size and style for all of those PAIRS names. Alston, R. K. R. Carr, K. Names ungrouped candidates have request- Newman, J. M. Schacht, C. C. ed O’Chee, W. G. Denman, K. J. Parer, W. R. Collins, R. L. (4) The names that *ungrouped candidates Tambling, G. E. J. Murphy, S. M. have requested be printed opposite their * denotes teller names on ballot-papers and the *list of candidates under section 30 must be Question so resolved in the affirmative. printed in type that is uniform in size and Senator MINCHIN (South Australia— style for all of those names. Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister) (5) Clause 61, page 34 (lines 1 to 9), omit the (11.51 a.m.)—by leave—I move: clause, substitute: 5926 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997

61 Voting tickets to be displayed (2) To be counted, a vote from an *overseas Where a *group voting ticket is registered elector must be received either: for the purposes of an election in a State or (a) at an office of the AEO, a DRO, an Territory, the AEO must cause the details of Assistant DRO or an *Assistant Re- the ticket to be made available for inspec- turning Officer who has not been ap- tion at the following places: pointed in respect of a place outside (a) the office of the AEO; Australia before the *close of the poll; or (b) each office of a DRO or Assistant (b) by an Assistant Returning Officer who DRO in that State or Territory; has been appointed in respect of a (c) any place for which an *Assistant place outside Australia by 12 noon (in Returning Officer has been appointed. the place where the Assistant Returning Note 1: *Group voting tickets are registered Officer is) on the seventh day before under section 59. the close of the poll. Note 2: This section also applies to individ- (10) Clause 72, page 41 (line 3), omit "or Assist- ual voting tickets (see subsection ant DRO", substitute ", Assistant DRO or 60(4)). *Assistant Returning Officer". (6) Clause 68, page 38 (lines 16 and 17), omit the (11) Clause 73, page 41 (lines 16 and 17), omit paragraph, substitute: "or Assistant DRO", substitute "Assistant DRO or *Assistant Returning Officer". (c) the elector must: (12) Clause 73, page 41 (lines 30 and 31), omit (i) in the case of an elector who is not "or from persons referred to in subsection an *overseas elector—post or deliver (3)", substitute ", from persons referred to the envelope to the *appropriate in subsection (3) or from *Assistant Return- DRO; and ing Officers". (ii) in the case of an overseas elector: (13) Clause 73, page 42 (after line 8), at the end (A) post or deliver the envelope to the of paragraph 73(2)(b) add: *appropriate DRO; or ; or (iii) received from an *Assistant (B) give the envelope to an *Assistant Returning Officer who has been Returning Officer who has been appointed in respect of a place appointed in respect of a place outside Australia as provided outside Australia by 12 noon (in for in subsection 70(2). the place where the Assistant (14) Clause 94, page 54 (lines 8 to 11), omit Returning Officer is) on the sev- subclause (2), substitute: enth day before the close of the (2) To be included in the preliminary scruti- poll; nies, such envelopes must be received: (7) Page 39 (after line 21), after clause 69, insert: (a) as provided for in section 70; and 69A Votes by overseas electors may be (b) by the *appropriate DRO by 6 pm on given to overseas Assistant Returning the sixth day after the *close of the Officer poll. (1) An *Assistant Returning Officer who has (3) The preliminary scrutinies must continue been appointed in respect of a place until all such envelopes have been dealt outside Australia may accept a *certifi- with under this Division. cate envelope from an *overseas elector up until 12 noon (in the place where the (15) Schedule 1, page 128 (after line 21), after Assistant Returning Officer is) on the the definition of officer, insert: seventh day before the *close of the poll. overseas elector means a person who is overseas at the time he or she votes in an election. (2) The Assistant Returning Officer must forward the envelope to the appropriate I will touch briefly on and remind the com- DRO. mittee of the amendments. These amendments (8) Clause 70, page 39 (line 23), after "vote", have bipartisan support. They arose out of the insert "(other than a vote from an *overseas Senate committee inquiry into this bill and elector)". were recommended to this government in a (9) Clause 70, page 39 (after line 24), at the end bipartisan manner. We wanted to incorporate of the clause, add: them before but, given the position of the Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5927

Senate on the bill on the previous two occa- 11A Voluntary voting not a precedent for any sions, we did not proceed with them. other election It is declared that it is not the intention of the They essentially relate to three areas. In Parliament that the method of voting for an recognition of the recommendations of the election under this Act be a precedent for the Senate committee that procedures for overseas method of voting under any other Act of the voting should more properly reflect current Commonwealth for any parliamentary election arrangements in relation to federal elections, or referendum. there are amendments to that effect, so that overseas voting will be facilitated in the way I believe it is important to have this as part of it is in federal elections. the legislation. I know that the Senate has overwhelmingly approved that in voting for Amendment No. 3 was an amendment put the second reading amendment. A number of to the Senate committee by Malcolm people in the political arena are proposing Mackerras in relation to the number of below- voluntary elections generally, but I believe the-line preference boxes for territories and that this will put paid to that effort. smaller states. Again, that had bipartisan support and it is one that is acceptable to the I feel that the inclusion of this in the legis- government. Amendment No. 4 arose in the lation will be sufficient to dissuade those Adelaide hearings of the committee and was persons from effectively pursuing their poli- supported by Senator Bolkus. It is an amend- cies, policies which I believe are inimical to ment which the government is quite comfort- a representative parliamentary democracy. It able with in relation to the format of grouping would dissuade them from using this legisla- candidate names. tion because, quite clearly, this provision, which indicates that the voluntary voting Amendments Nos 5 to 15 are the detailed procedures herein should not be a precedent amendments recommended by the committee for any other election, will prevent that from in a bipartisan fashion in relation to overseas happening. Whether or not they are successful voting and which also the government is for any other reason is beside the point. happy to accept. Because these amendments are, in my understanding, non-controversial, Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (11.58 I will conclude my remarks. a.m.)—I support these amendments, but I want to note a couple of things. Firstly, if the Senator BOLKUS (South Australia) (11.54 government supports this, Senator Harradine a.m.)—As I said earlier, this is not the must have largesse from the government that opposition’s preferred course of action, but I did not have. The Prime Minister told me we did say that we would facilitate it if the that he would brook no conditions whatever— numbers turned against us. Senator Minchin full stop. I am glad to see that Senator is right: all of these amendments flowed Harradine has been able to get this indication through the Senate committee process. Some of safety for the compulsory voting system— were agreed on in discussions in Adelaide. although, in effect, if the debate arises further Given our inclination now to facilitate the down the line, this is no impediment to a outcome of this process, we will not be change being made. opposing these amendments. Secondly, I understand this to mean that, Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) where the word ‘referendum’ appears, it (11.54 a.m.)—The Australian Democrats will means ‘plebiscite’. The dictionary definition not oppose the amendments. says that those words are interchangeable. I would ask the Senate to make it clear that the Amendments agreed to. word ‘referendum’ used in this situation also Senator HARRADINE (Tasmania) (11.55 covers ‘plebiscite’. Maybe the government a.m.)—I move: and Senator Harradine could give an indica- tion as to whether or not they see it that way (1) Page 6 (after line 4), after clause 11, insert: as well. 5928 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997

Senator BOLKUS (South Australia) (11.59 While I am on the record as a supporter of a.m.)—The opposition has already indicated voluntary voting for federal elections— that it also supports Senator Harradine’s something that I have not hidden—and it is amendment. Of course, one of our concerns the policy of the South Australian Liberal has been the precedent setting nature of the Party of which I am a member that voting in government’s initiative. We are still con- federal and state elections should be volun- cerned. Although we support this amendment, tary, it is not the policy of the coalition. The we are concerned that this sort of issue does federal coalition is not committed to changing develop a life of its own, particularly when the Commonwealth Electoral Act to have you have such effective proponents as Senator federal elections conducted by voluntary Minchin supporting it. I think the best pres- voting. Therefore, the government has no sure we have against Senator Minchin is difficulty with this amendment. people like Petro Georgiou and other mem- Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (12.02 bers of the Liberal Party, and the National p.m.)—Senator Minchin, does the word Party, of course, who are opposed to Senator ‘referendum’ here, in his understanding, cover Minchin’s crusade for voluntary voting. plebiscite? We support this amendment. As a symbolic Senator MINCHIN (South Australia— gesture, this amendment, together with the Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister) one that was passed earlier, basically makes (12.02 p.m.)—The legal advice I have just it very clear that if anyone does want to come received is that in Commonwealth legislation back into this place with a proposal for a reference to referendum would normally be voluntary voting, they would find, particularly taken to mean a referendum to amend the as the Senate is now constituted, the numbers constitution. But as a matter of strict legal against them. I think that is an important interpretation I cannot give you a precise message for us as a Senate at this time. answer. It could be that others would be able to Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) (12 give you legal advice that referendum appear- noon)—It is the opinion of the Australian ing here, as it does, could cover indicative Democrats that the decision of Senator Brown plebiscites—a quite separate procedure. I of the Tasmanian Greens and of Senator guess that will have to lie in the eye of the Harradine to support the government’s bill beholder. The only indicative plebiscite that will allow the government to use this as a I think we have had in our recent history was precedent. We think, in consequence, that this the national song plebiscite, which was is a fig leaf—I think there is a better term conducted at the time of the 1977 election. than that—against that danger. Accordingly, While that was voluntary, it was conducted we will be voting against Senator Harradine’s together with a federal election, which was of amendment. course compulsory, and therefore everybody Senator MINCHIN (South Australia— voted. I would imagine that it would be the Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister) case by and large that most governments, in (12.01 p.m.)—I indicate to the committee that wanting to conduct plebiscites on any particu- the government does not oppose this amend- lar issue as an indicative process—maybe not ment. Senator Harradine drew it to my atten- on the republic but on most issues—would tion. It is not contrary to the position of the want to ensure a cost-effective testing of government in any way. As I said before public opinion in that way by doing it to- when we were debating the amendment to the gether with a federal election, which is of motion that the Senate not insist on its course compulsory. So the question becomes amendments, we have always treated this somewhat academic. I do not think I can add election of delegates entirely on its merits. As much more to that answer. I said before, we believe that on its merits The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—The that election should be by way of a voluntary question is that the amendment moved by postal ballot. Senator Harradine be agreed to. Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5929

Senator Murray—Could the Australian sustainability, and social justice, as if it were a Democrats have their no recorded on the World Bank loan. voices, please? We are not dealing in this legislation with Question resolved in the affirmative. World Bank loans. There is a set of different criteria, I understand, under the MIGA. We The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—The do not agree with cross-reference to the question is that the resolution of the Commit- World Bank in this case. I will make a few tee be reported. I think the ayes have it. comments about the Australian Democrat Senator Bolkus—Senator Minchin, can we amendment when we get to it. have any confidence in you to organise a President for Australia if you cannot get one Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) for the Committee to report to? (12.10 p.m.)—Perhaps someone could tell Senator Sherry that we have dealt with the Senator Minchin—That, of course, is a Democrat amendment and now we are dealing matter entirely for the Australian people. As with mine. The issues are about whether or we have said often enough, it is a matter for not Australia has the ability to take a princi- the Australian people to decide whether they pled stand. Labor here are clearly saying that want an Australian President. We have put in they do not want us to have the ability to take place a process which will enable that to a principled stand and that they are quite occur. Unlike the Labor Party, which had, I happy to see taxpayers’ money going without believe, a process whereby a parliamentary any principles applying to what happens to it. committee was going to run around the That is a very sad indictment on the Labor country, we will be inviting the Australian Party. We know the government is prepared people to get heavily involved in this by do that but it seems the Labor Party is pre- electing delegates to the convention. As the pared to do it as well. Prime Minister has said for so long, if the Australian people make it clear that they want Senator SHERRY (Tasmania—Deputy Australia to become a republic then we will Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) not stand in their way. (12.10 p.m.)—Briefly in response to that, it will always depend on the nature of the Resolution reported; report adopted. international agreement. We just do not MULTILATERAL INVESTMENT believe that in this particular case it is appro- GUARANTEE AGENCY BILL 1996 priate that this provision you sought should apply. In Committee Senator HARRADINE (Tasmania) (12.11 Consideration resumed. p.m.)—I understand what Senator Sherry is The CHAIRMAN—The committee is saying. I do believe at some stage there needs considering the Multilateral Investment to be a shot across the bow of the World Guarantee Agency Bill and the amendment Bank by the parliament. I know this has been moved by Senator Margetts. The question is of concern to Senator Margetts. On the face that the amendment be agreed to. of it, the motion that is currently before us Senator SHERRY (Tasmania—Deputy does include, I believe, policies which are Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) attractive. The statement was made by Senator (12.08 p.m.)—I do not want to detain the Margetts that the World Bank hardly has an committee for an unnecessary period. Labor unblemished record on human rights and will not be supporting the amendment. I think environmental issues even in its own program. for the reasons I outlined in my speech on the That is a statement of fact. second reading it is inappropriate for such an Senator Margetts also stated that there has amendment to be passed. I note that subsec- been substantial criticism of the World Bank tion (b) states: through its support of IMF. IMF likes struc- compliance of the investment with all formal or tural adjustment policies requiring the internal criteria and guidelines of the World Bank windback of regulation governing foreign on protection of the environment, ecological investment and imports and requiring cut- 5930 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 backs in the delivery or availability of social statement, the amendment of Senator Margetts programs like health and education, even the is unexceptionable. Whilst, technically, Sena- provision of clean water. That is why she tor Sherry may be right, I propose to vote for indicated that she had reservations and suspi- the amendment. cions about this Multilateral Investment Question put: Guarantee Agency by the World Bank. That the amendment (Senator Margetts’s)be I do believe that we in Australia, particular- agreed to. ly Treasury officials, need to have a good The committee divided. [12.21 p.m.] look at what is happening in the World Bank. (The Chairman—Senator S. M. West) They say that, yes, they do have a look at Ayes ...... 10 what is happening. Taking clean water as an Noes ...... 43 example, I had the opportunity to take up this —— matter of clean water, which is so vital in Majority ...... 33 many developing countries to the health and —— well-being of those countries, in the Senate AYES Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs on 21 Allison, L. Bourne, V. * August. I was asking AIDAB about what it Brown, B. Harradine, B. was doing on the clean water front. Of course Kernot, C. Lees, M. H. that is a matter I have been asking about Margetts, D. Murray, A. before. Stott Despoja, N. Woodley, J. NOES I asked them specifically about PNG. I had Abetz, E. Boswell, R. L. D. previously asked them questions about the Calvert, P. H. Campbell, I. G. PNG, World Bank, Asian Development Bank Carr, K. Chapman, H. G. P. Childs, B. K. Collins, J. M. A. and AusAID population and family planning Conroy, S. * Coonan, H. project in Papua New Guinea. I raise this for Cooney, B. Crane, W. the Minister representing the Treasurer be- Eggleston, A. Ellison, C. cause I think the Treasurer and the Treasury Ferguson, A. B. Ferris, J officials should have a good look at some of Foreman, D. J. Forshaw, M. G. these programs and see what is in fact being Gibbs, B. Gibson, B. F. Herron, J. Hill, R. M. done, whether or not we are adopting a Hogg, J. Kemp, R. paternalistic, almost a dictatorial, policy in Knowles, S. C. Lightfoot, P. R. areas in which we are funding World Bank Lundy, K. Macdonald, I. activity. Macdonald, S. Mackay, S. McGauran, J. J. J. McKiernan, J. P. A document entitled PNG: World Bank, Newman, J. M. O’Chee, W. G. Asian Development Bank, AusAID population Patterson, K. C. L. Payne, M. A. and family planning project management and Reynolds, M. Sherry, N. Synon, K. M. Tierney, J. implementation of Australian finance compo- Vanstone, A. E. Watson, J. O. W. nent scopes of services details what are the West, S. M. specific objectives of that program. One of * denotes teller the objectives is ‘to generate a greater demand for family planning’. That is a colonialist Question so resolved in the negative. approach if ever there was a colonialist The CHAIRMAN—The question is that approach. Are we there to generate a greater the bill stand as printed. demand? ‘These poor ignorant PNG citizens; they don’t know what’s good for them; there Senator Margetts—I will not call for a are too many of them anyhow, so we’ll division on this so as not to waste the pursue a greater demand.’ What does Treas- Committee’s time, but I would like both my ury think about that? What does the Treasurer and Senator Brown’s votes to be recorded as think about it? There are innumerable areas ‘no’ votes. and I could go on, but I will not. As a policy Bill agreed to. Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5931

Bill reported without amendment; report a leading role in supporting moves to expand adopted. the GAB and its membership. At the IMF’s annual meeting in October 1995, former Third Reading Labor Treasurer Ralph Willis expressed Bill (on motion by Senator Campbell) read Australia’s support for a doubling of the GAB a third time. and stated that Australia would be prepared to participate in a wider scheme provided that, INTERNATIONAL MONETARY firstly, all participants had the same rights and AGREEMENTS AMENDMENT BILL responsibilities; secondly, contributions were 1997 based on the relative economic standing of Second Reading the participants; thirdly, all members were able to participate fully in activation arrange- Debate resumed from 19 June, on motion ments; and, fourthly, voting rights were by Senator Alston: determined by the shares of commitments. That this bill be now read a second time. In the event, some of the smaller members Senator SHERRY (Tasmania—Deputy of the G10 resisted attempts to expand the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) membership of the GAB as they wanted to (12.27 p.m.)—The International Monetary protect the privileges they enjoy as members Agreements Amendment Bill 1997, which is of the G10. In effect, expanding the GAB before us, allows Australia to participate in would have meant opening the membership of the IMF’s new arrangements to borrow, the G10 to a wider group of countries. The commonly known as NAB agreements. Australian government was instrumental in Australia played a key role in the develop- finding a way through the impasse by propos- ment of the NAB following the Mexican ing the new arrangements to borrow as a new financial crisis of late 1994. supplementary financing facility for the In a world characterised by massive flows International Monetary Fund. of international capital, the IMF needs the The NAB does not replace the GAB, so the capacity to draw on considerable resources in G10 countries continue to maintain their order to intervene effectively to deal with exclusive club. But it is expected to be the financial emergencies when they arise. The IMF’s supplementary financing facility of first Mexican crisis highlighted the IMF’s inad- and principal recourse. In recognition of equate supplementary financing facility to Australia’s role in establishing the NAB, it is deal at short notice with a major international expected that Australia will be the first chair financial emergency. of the group. Until now, the IMF’s principal source of The bill has no budget implications. Any supplementary funds for intervening to stabi- future payments made out of the consolidated lise financial emergencies has been through revenue fund would be classified as a finan- the general arrangements to borrow, known as cial transaction and would therefore not affect the GAB. The members of the general ar- either the headline or underlying budget rangements to borrow are the G10 group of balances. In effect, Australia would be making major industrialised countries—that is, the G7 a loan to the IMF. Given the IMF’s status, plus Belgium, the Netherlands, Sweden and this would obviously be a very low risk Switzerland. That adds up to 11 by my count. transaction. I do recall asking about this. Maybe the The second part of the bill proposes some parliamentary secretary can tell us why it is minor changes to streamline the Australian 11 and not 10. The GAB provides special government’s financial dealings with the IMF. short-term loans to the IMF members facing As it stands, the Commonwealth is currently a currency crisis. The present GAB quota is required to make all its transactions in special approximately $US26 billion. drawing rights—known as SDRs—with the Following the Mexican currency crisis of IMF via the Reserve Bank. Under the new late 1994, the Australian government played framework, special drawing rights will be 5932 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 bought and sold by the Commonwealth the rescue package was about $1.3 billion, without the need to transfer to and from the and that was partly our money. Reserve Bank. In Thailand over the last few weeks, the In closing my remarks, I certainly hope that $15 billion organised by the IMF is—to use in respect of the appointment of the chair of the words of Peter Hartcher in the Financial the first group—if, as I am informed, Austral- Review of 12 August 1997—‘aimed chiefly at ia is to be the first chair—we do not have the protecting the assets of big banks and interna- unedifying spectacle, and I believe totally tional lenders’. Mr Hartcher then goes on to inappropriate spectacle, we had recently of the say that the rescue ‘represents an attempt by appointment of then Senator Jim Short to the the governments of the lending countries to European Bank for Reconstruction and Devel- use public resources to protect the assets and opment. I would certainly seek some com- the interests of their private sectors’. Attached ments from the parliamentary secretary about to this money are requirements for the appointment process with respect to this privatisation, tax reductions and the lifting of position. restrictions on the supply of offshore curren- Finally, I would like to once again acknow- cy. We also have to ask ourselves why Thai- ledge the role of our former Labor Treasurer, land got into this trouble over their currency. Ralph Willis, who did play a lead role on That was not because of the machinations of behalf of Australia in establishing these other countries playing with their dollar. It arrangements. was because their dollar became the play- Senator BOURNE (New South Wales) thing—as everybody’s currency all over the (12.31 p.m.)—The International Monetary world potentially is—of business and of Agreements Amendment Bill 1997 proposes currency speculators. I often wonder if in fact measures, as we have just heard, to allow the we should make the larger transnational Commonwealth to make about $1.5 billion corporations sign a few ILO agreements and available to the IMF. The IMF has potential basic human rights agreements, because they to bring great relief and great benefit to the have far more power than many small count- communities of the world. However, in its ries. present position and with its present re- If this is our money—and it is—we should sources, it is really just the workhorse of the make sure that it is being provided for a good financially powerful nations and a diversion purpose. The IMF has the potential to give from their own financial policies. money for many good purposes, and these The IMF has come to prominence with the amendments should ensure that our contribu- decline of bank lending and the decline in the tions to the IMF satisfy our humanitarian ability of the developing nations to pay concerns. interest and the principal on their own loans. Perhaps another example is the goings-on It is arguable that the banks recognise that in Zaire. The IMF was a keen supporter of they cannot enforce repayment of those loans. the now ex-President Mobutu Sese Seko. His They need a third institution with internation- excesses are now legend as he lives off the al muscle which can enforce repayment and benefits of his country and the trade support- round up enough money to make ongoing ed by international sanction and financial repayments possible. support. We have most probably bought part The recent examples in Mexico and Thai- of one of those European palaces for him. land illustrate this clearly. In Mexico, the However, we are also concerned that the banks loaned huge vats of money, about 80 objectives of the IMF in its present structure per cent of their debt, and they were very impose financial regimes on countries that do possibly going to lose all of it. In stepped the not march to the financial beat of the finan- IMF with a rescue plan and funds to add to cially powerful nations. As a last resort of the banks’ emergency funds, and the Mexican credit, countries are forced to comply with economy was rescued. The salient factor in criteria that the IMF imposes to ensure free this example is that the IMF’s contribution to trade and comparative advantage or, more Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5933 precisely, to ensure the abolition of trade The government says that we do not need barriers. This is not necessarily to the advan- to pay if we cannot. This is true, but I cannot tage of the particular nation involved, and we imagine Australia in any but the most extreme have to recognise that so-called free trade has circumstances going to the IMF and saying, a good side and also a bad side. The recent ‘We’re in crisis and we would like to be debate over car tariffs and the current debate audited in evidence that we really can’t afford over the TCF industries are local examples of it.’ No, I think we will make our contribution the consequences on lifestyles and jobs for even if we have to borrow it. This bill gives Australians that unthinking free trade agendas that power to the Treasurer. It is not a new have. power in respect of IMF loans. At any mo- We believe that growth should be sustain- ment the IMF can ask for $1.5 billion, and it able, equitable and just. That is why we are will come out of consolidated revenue. This going to support the amendments of the amount is more than the Commonwealth pays Greens when they come up. It is our money; directly for secondary education, at a time it is individual Australians’ money that goes when all sorts of sectors of the Australian into the IMF. It is not the IMF’s money and community are being denied benefits, includ- it is not this government’s money. It is our ing higher education, because we do not have money that they distribute and it is money enough money. The government disingenu- that we should have a say in. ously says that this is only a loan, which is true. The money is nonetheless not here and Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) available. For the five years until repayment (12.36 p.m.)—We are debating here the we will have to find the money from other International Monetary Agreements Amend- sources. ment Bill 1997, another of those bills which goes to provide money to the International The authorisation of the power to take $1.5 Monetary Fund, the IMF. Given the huge billion from revenue, whenever it is asked, is contention within the development communi- not our primary objection to this bill. The real ty, international social justice organisations problems for the Greens are the purpose for and among nations of the south about IMF which the money is lent and the implementa- loans and the conditions placed upon them, I tion of that purpose. IMF loans are not loans think this bill can hardly be considered to be without strings. They are not loans to help non- contentious. It was the intention of the people or to aid development. Under schedule government to shove this through without 4, item 10 of this bill it says that the loans debate at the end of last session. will be made under the terms covered in article 5, section 3. This basically allows the The purpose of this particular bill is to IMF to impose so-called economic discipline provide funding for the NAB—the acronym or structural adjustment policies on recipient for the ‘new arrangements to borrow’. The nations as conditions of the loan. NAB is set up to get extra money for the IMF for really substantial bailouts of large econo- Such structural adjustment policies go by mies. It comes as a result of the collapse of the acronym SAPs—these debates always the Mexican economy, as was mentioned, a seem to develop a certain amount of acronym few years ago. The NAB allows the IMF to mania. SAPs impose control over government call upon member nations such as Australia policy by the International Money Fund. The to throw in extra contributions. This bill effect of such control is to maximise export would authorise the Treasurer to take that income and loan repayments, often at the money out of consolidated revenue or to expense of social welfare. A frequent result of borrow money in order to meet our obligation IMF SAP conditions is that the recipient under the IMF. In our case the amount of nation is forced to wind back programs for money we are talking about is $1.5 billion, basic education and health, wind back plus any amount extra that is needed should minimum wage legislation and suffer in- some members not be able to meet their creased unemployment and poverty. The other obligations. aspect of SAPs is that they usually have 5934 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 conditions requiring the recipient nation to the imposition of laissez-faire capitalism can drop barriers to imports and overseas invest- people actually get ahead through the mecha- ment. Such barriers may have been designed nism of the trickle-down theory. There are to provide some minimal shelter for the other ruder versions of that, but I am not development of indigenous industry or indus- going to mention them. tries of national significance. They may have been designed to prevent abuses of market The results bear this out. The Special power. Rapporteur for the United Nations Economic and Social Council’s Commission on Human I will give you several examples of these Rights, Danilo Turk, who was given the job situations in my subsequent comments. First over a five-year period of examining the I would like to tell an illustrative joke. One impact of debt and SAPs, noted in paragraph day a man came to the door to find Fred, 66 of his final report that southern debt was someone he knew as a person who was very between $1.4 trillion and $1.45 trillion at the active in the community, at the door. Fred end of 1991—double its level at the begin- explained that a member of the community ning of the debt crisis in 1981. He further had fallen on hard times and was unable to stated: pay his debts. He was taking a collection to . . . the debt situation has resulted in an unprece- help this unfortunate. The man of the house dented reverse flow of financing from developing was moved by Fred’s charity and gave gener- to the industrialised world. Total resource flows ously. As Fred was leaving he asked, ‘Fred, from the South to the North between 1982 and if it’s not offensive, can you tell me the name 1990 amounted to at least $US432 billion, equiva- lent to more than six Marshall Plans, evaluated in of our unfortunate brother?’ Fred replied, 1991 dollars. Between 1985 and 1990, Brazil paid ‘The debtor is me.’ A few months later Fred out $54.5 billion more to its creditors than it returned with a similar story of collecting for received in new loans. According to the World an unfortunate. The man was incensed and Health Organisation, it would take slightly less than asked, ‘I suppose you are the poor person in that amount to provide safe water and sewers for question?’ ‘No,’ said Fred, ‘it is the poor all of Latin America during the next decade. farmer Susan.’ Fred outlined her plight: a IMF loans do not address the debt situation; large and a demanding lender. The man again they perpetuate it by attempting to force contributed generously saying, ‘I feel asham- servicing of debts rather than addressing the ed. I’m sorry I doubted you, Fred, but after fundamental inequity of the terms of debt. last time I thought you might again be the Debt, in being serviced, is often not dis- debtor and the recipient of my charity.’ ‘Ah, charged. Several studies—the Brandt report, but I am the recipient; this time I am the the Brundtland report, the Turk report, the creditor.’ report of the Commission on Human Rights in 1992—have all outlined debt as a funda- Who are the IMF loans meant to serve? mental problem. They identify debt and the Many analysts looking at the loans and their structure of lending—including the IMF and outcomes have concluded that their purpose World Bank loans and their role in perpetuat- is to ensure lenders continue to receive a flow ing the debt cycle—as a major source of of cash from southern nations regardless of poverty, inequity, environmental degradation, social and environmental costs or issues such violation of human rights and what has been as sovereignty. How cynical. The emphasis on described as a recolonisation of the develop- export incomes rather than domestic produc- ing world. tion, the emphasis on loan repayment at the expense of social programs, the elements of The other area of conditionality mentioned coercion and imposition of policies that are was the fact that IMF loans usually require domestically extremely unpopular are all opening the economy to international invest- evidence that the purpose of the IMF loans is ment and imports and deregulation of the not to serve the recipient nations. Of course, financial sector. This has several outcomes, the entire thing is masked in economic funda- including an increase in capital flight as mentalist rhetoric that states that only through barriers to taking money out of developing Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5935 countries are removed, and an increase in the a regulation making power to cover highly importation of luxury goods. These are both technical elements of an industry endorsed consequences of the internal or intranational package relating to the treatment of different inequities in distribution of wealth. They are types of carriage contracts, cargo handling often exacerbated by unregulated foreign methods and shippers’ losses due to delays. investment and the undermining by SAPs of The bill also facilitates technological improve- policies to promote social welfare. ments in the industry and provides for the It is estimated that at least a third of Latin adoption of new technologies such as elec- America’s debt problems would disappear if tronic data interchange. The opposition sup- capital flight was prevented and reversed. ports the bill and does not propose any Capital flight reduces the money in national amendments. savings to meet a country’s own capital Senator HERRON (Queensland—Minister needs. Going to northern banks adds to the for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander injury of the loss: the insult of being offered Affairs) (12.46 p.m.)—I thank Senator the money as foreign loans. In terms of the Mackay for her contribution to the debate. importation of luxury goods, the IMF is The Carriage of Goods by Sea Amendment reported to have demanded deregulation of Bill resolves a serious difficulty in the exist- such areas as imported alcohol, toilet tissue ing legislation with the operation of the and so on in a high level mission to Brasilia Hamburg Rules trigger and implements a in August 1984. package of improvements to Australia’s While some argument might be possible marine cargo liability regime agreed with that restrictions on imports of productive interested parties in the maritime industry equipment are bad for a developing country, after extensive consultations. it can hardly be claimed that development is The bill will extend the protection now assisted by importing Johnny Walker! A third offered by the Carriage of Goods by Sea Act consequence is the displacement of develop- to Australian shippers, increasing the incen- ment plans in favour of corporate plans. As tive for carriers to minimise loss or damage an example, in India in 1964-65, a famine to marine cargoes and thus will put downward was used by the US and the World Bank to pressure on marine cargo insurance costs. impose liberalisation of investment terms on Question resolved in the affirmative. the Indian fertiliser industry as a condition of Bill read a second time, and passed through providing food aid. its remaining stages without amendment or The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT debate. (Senator Watson)—Order! It being 12.45 p.m., the debate is interrupted. BROADCASTING SERVICES LEGISLATION AMENDMENT BILL CARRIAGE OF GOODS BY SEA 1997 AMENDMENT BILL 1997 TELEVISION LICENCE FEES Second Reading AMENDMENT BILL 1997 Debate resumed from 25 June, on motion RADIO LICENCE FEES AMENDMENT by Senator Brownhill: BILL 1997 That this bill be now read a second time. Second Reading Senator MACKAY (Tasmania) (12.45 p.m.)—The opposition supports the Carriage Debate resumed from 26 June, on motion of Goods by Sea Amendment Bill , which by Senator Campbell: amends the Carriage of Goods by Sea Act. That these bills be now read a second time. The bill is a compromise by the related Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (12.48 industries, shippers, shipowners and insurers, p.m.)—In my contribution to this debate on and reflects the report of the maritime cargo 26 June, I stated the concern of the Australian liability working group. It makes provision for Greens that this legislation allows a change to 5936 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 the media cross-ownership rules. We do not Boothroyd MP. On behalf of honourable believe that such a change should be enter- senators, I have great pleasure in welcoming tained at a time when there is a major review her to the chamber. It is not the first visit of of those rules taking place in secret, behind the Speaker to Australia but it is her first visit closed doors, under enormous pressure by the to this country as Speaker. With the concur- media organisations and the media magnates. rence of honourable senators, I invite the We think it should all be out in the open and, Speaker to take a seat on the floor of the if there are to be changes to the rules, there Senate. should be a public discussion before such Honourable senators—Hear, hear! changes are made. I will not reiterate the arguments I put before, but I want to move The Speaker was thereupon seated accord- the following second reading amendment: ingly. At the end of the motion, add: QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE "but the Senate is of the view that Australia’s cross-media ownership rules should not be Human Rights changed until a full, open and independent public inquiry has been held". Senator COONEY—My question is direct- ed to Senator Hill representing both the That would mean, in effect, that this change Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Prime is sensibly held in abeyance until there has Minister. What is the government’s view of been that open scrutiny of what it means in calls in late July by the Malaysian Prime terms of not only the change itself but flow- Minister, Dr Mahathir, to substantially water on changes which are alarming those people down the United Nations Universal Declara- who closely watch the intricacies of these tion of Human Rights? Does the government rules. agree with Dr Mahathir that the declaration I put that amendment and I hope that the was ‘formulated by the superpowers, which Senate will support it. It is a big issue in did not understand the needs of poor Australia. We have arguably the most concen- countries’? Does the government agree with trated media ownership of any nation in the Dr Mahathir and some other East-Asian world—certainly of any similar country. We leaders that human rights are a Western have seen the number of owners reduced imposition contrary to Asian values? dramatically over the last couple of decades. Senator HILL—We do not support any I see this change, which I am sure the need to water down the declaration. We government will say is one at the margins, believe it has been a very useful foundation. being a further erosion of that diversity of It is one of the foundations to enable interna- ownership; if not an erosion per se, it opens tional pressure to be applied towards the the door to further constriction and confine- wider acceptance of universal human rights, ment of the diversity of ownership. That is those rights that we should regard as un- not a good thing for the fourth estate; it is not qualified and those rights that are necessary a good thing for democracy; it is not a good to protect the dignity of each and every thing for society. I commend this amendment individual. to the Senate. What has been pleasing is that most count- Debate (on motion by Senator Herron) ries in the world have accepted the declara- adjourned. tion and the other major conventions in that Sitting suspended from 12.51 p.m. to 2.00 regard. In accepting them, those countries p.m. have been prepared to advocate them publicly. What has been a little disappointing is that DISTINGUISHED VISITORS some countries which have advocated them The PRESIDENT—Order! I draw the have not necessarily applied them with the attention of honourable senators to the pres- vigour and enthusiasm that we would like to ence in the chamber of the Speaker of the see. So we engage with other like nations House of Commons, the Rt Hon. Betty around the world to encourage and support Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5937 not only their adherence in principle to the Senator HILL—I take note of a lot of what declaration and conventions but also their Senator Cook says. I will never forget that on adherence in practice. 20 September 1995 he said, ‘Our budget will be balanced and in surplus. Our budget will No, we do not see the declaration as some continue to move into greater surplus.’ Within sort of Western imposed obligation. We are a few months we found it was $10 billion in very pleased to see that the declaration and deficit. I remember some of his quotes on the conventions have been adopted by most of the innovation statement, too, but I will not Eastern world. Furthermore—and I think embarrass him further on that. Senator Cooney is more learned than I in these areas—any student of Confucius or I do particularly remember what he used to Buddha will find within such teachings many tell us about tariffs and the fact that Labor of the principles that are enhanced with the was opening up the economy by pushing declaration and other appropriate conventions. down the tariff barrier and how that was in the interests of all Australians. Yes, I do Senator COONEY—Madam President, I remember those quotes. ask a supplementary question. What did Mr I guess the change of mind is familiar, isn’t Downer mean when he spoke at the Australia- it? We were talking about it yesterday in Indonesia Business Council in Bali on 16 relation to taxation. Mr Beazley wanted a June of the necessity of Australia addressing broad-based consumption tax; now he does human rights issues ‘in a more Asian way’? not want it. Senator Evans wants death duties Senator HILL—I can tell you what I think reinstated; Mr Beazley apparently does not. Mr Downer would have meant. There are Senator Evans wants payroll taxes lifted in the ways in which the basic principles can be states. Anyway it is very muddled, but it is expressed within developing countries, some very muddled also on the issue of industry of which have tended to distinguish develop- policy. Senator Cook said on 6 June 1994: ment from these rights in terms of priority. The government . . . recognises that its reforms There are ways in which it can be expressed have worked. The key to our economic restructur- that these rights support economic develop- ing has been the phasing down in a careful way of ment and support the benefits that can flow tariff protection to expose the Australian manufac- turing sector to international competition to cause from economic development—in other words, it to become leaner and more competitive. they are not inconsistent; they are mutually compatible and mutually reinforcing. I am ...... sure that that was the point Mr Downer was It was said that, if tariff reform was attempted in making Bali. these areas— the transport sector, et cetera, then they— Tariffs . . . would be killed off entirely. Well, they have Senator CALVERT—My question is to not been; they are flourishing. the Leader of the Government in the Senate, If we had left the tariff wall intact, the old Senator Hill. Does the minister recall a quality, high priced, inefficient Australian vehicle statement by Senator Cook on tariff policy would have been now overwhelmed and we would two years ago when he said, ‘Our thrust as a have no car industry. government has been to push for opening up That was Senator Cook in 1994, but where is the economy, internationalising it through Senator Cook today? He has put down a tariff change’? Does the minister also recall notice of motion to be debated today saying Senator Cook saying, ‘We are committed to that we are now well ahead of the world in tariff reductions . . . Our task is to further the dismantling tariffs and it is time to stop. He internationalisation of the economy,’ and that, was in here before saying, ‘We’re opening up ‘the era of the handout mentality is dead’? to competition and it’s great for Australian What is the government’s approach to indus- industry.’ Now he is saying that, because try policy and specifically to the promotion of certain industries have closed down on the exports, investment and job creation? basis of what they inherited from Labor, it 5938 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 has all got to be stopped because it was remuneration packaging arrangements but has basically wrong. Unfortunately, you cannot not, at this time, been endorsed by either the have it both ways. It is amazing. You have secretary of the Department of the Prime good reason to shake your head, Senator Minister and Cabinet or the Prime Minister. Cook. It is embarrassing that in government The government’s intention is to provide you called for one thing; in opposition you public servants with access to arrangements are calling for the exact opposite. comparable to those available more broadly in the community and they will remain Salary Packages subject to the same tax rules as apply to the Senator SHERRY—My question is ad- community generally. So there is no inconsis- dressed to Senator Hill, the Minister repre- tency, Madam President. senting the Prime Minister. Is the minister aware that the Australian Taxation Office is Senator SHERRY—Madam President, I preparing a crackdown on salary repackaging ask a supplementary question. Minister, you arrangements which include novated car refer to flexible remuneration packages and leases? Why then is the Department of the appear to consider that it is fine, but in the Prime Minister and Cabinet advocating the use of these flexible remuneration packages use of such options as novated car leases for these officers just happen to be able to avoid its senior officers which will help avoid your new 15 per cent superannuation tax and income tax, the new superannuation tax and the Medicare levy surcharge. Why will the the Medicare levy surcharge? In light of this, government not instruct all departments that does the government support the salary the use of novated car leases and other fringe repackaging crackdown by the tax office, or benefits by senior officers cannot be used in do they support the Prime Minister and order to avoid tax, particularly taxes you have cabinet officers being engaged in tax avoid- introduced? ance? Senator HILL—I am sorry to hear that Senator HILL—I do not think there is any Senator Sherry knocks the public servants in inconsistency at all, Madam President. We not accepting that they should have the same would understand the tax office particularly opportunities as those in the non-government focusing on evasion and wanting to take sector. We think they deserve a fair go. The action against that. We would understand determination of taxable income is a question them addressing the issue of avoidance as for interpretation under the act and it should well, but the position of the Prime Minister in equally apply to whether you are employed in relation to this matter—which you asked me the government or non-government sectors. to find out for you yesterday—as it relates to Car Manufacturing Industry the public sector is that provision for the introduction of flexible remuneration pack- Senator SYNON—My question is directed aging is included in the government’s policy to the Minister representing the Minister for parameters for agreement making in the Industry, Science and Tourism, Senator Australian Public Service under the Work- Ellison. It relates to the government’s decision place Relations and Other Legislation Act to introduce new arrangements to assist the 1996, and that flexible remuneration packag- Australian car manufacturing industry. Will ing is already employed widely in the private the minister inform the Senate of the benefits sector and in many state government depart- to jobs, exports and investment which have ments and, provided that it is legitimate, that resulted from this decision? is fine. Senator ELLISON—I thank Senator Synon The Department of the Prime Minister and for that question. I am pleased to inform the Cabinet is developing a policy on flexible Senate that last week Toyota announced the remuneration packaging in anticipation of details of its plan to invest $1 billion in its offering Australian workplace agreements to Australian facilities. It is a decision which all SES staff shortly. A draft is being used in will directly benefit three key areas on which discussions on the introduction of flexible the government is focusing: jobs, exports and Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5939 investment. It is good news which is directly Clearly the opposition do not believe in the linked to the government’s sensible and potential of Australian industry. The govern- pragmatic decision on tariff arrangements for ment on this side, however, is getting on with the car industry. These new arrangements the business of encouraging growth in jobs, announced by the Prime Minister on 6 June exports and investments. Toyota’s decision, I this year are designed to secure investment by believe, shows that this strategy is bearing the major car manufacturers in the lead-up to fruit. the APEC free trade region in 2010. Petrol Prices The decision by Toyota to make large scale, Senator NEAL—My question is addressed long-term investment in Australia is confir- to Senator Hill, representing the Minister for mation of the success of the government’s Resources and Energy. When does the strategy for industry. Highlighting Toyota’s government intend to implement its petrol decision will be the direct creation of 400 plan announced by the Treasurer on 11 jobs and hundreds more indirectly. A doub- December to, first, end surveillance over ling of exports of the Camry motor vehicle petrol prices and, second, repeal the sites act will be achieved by the year 2000. There will and the petroleum franchising act after the be $1 billion in new investment. There will agreement on a new oil code? Is it true that also be the manufacture of a new V6 family the government’s objective to obtain commit- car and the location of a research and devel- ments from the oil majors to allow open opment facility in Australia. Japan’s leading terminal access and price transparency is in car manufacturers have a very positive view doubt after Roland Williams, CEO of Shell of Australia and of the government’s approach Australia, wrote to the Treasurer saying that to industry. In fact, the President of Toyota, they will sell petrol based on supply contract Mr Okuda, said at that announcement last and that Shell prefers terms of sale? week: Senator HILL—I would be surprised The Government’s decision on future policy because, as Senator Neal would know, this arrangements signals a genuine commitment to the government is very much committed to continued development of Australia’s automotive transparency and open government. It gives manufacturing industry. the public confidence in good decision mak- The government is very serious about the task ing, and we think that is highly appropriate. of encouraging investment in all industries, The other thing I can say with confidence is and we are equally serious about assisting that, when the government does make a industry to meet the challenge of free trade. promise, it keeps its word. I am sure that this This is something that the Labor Party never one will be honoured as well. did when it was in office. We are very serious I might say in passing that I am thrilled the about providing the right climate for growth, Senate has decided to support us on the increased competitiveness, increased exports constitutional convention, which will enable and the creation of jobs. It is a commitment us to keep yet another promise. As to the— which we have but clearly the opposition does Senator Faulkner—Madam President, I not have. Their comments after the Toyota raise a point of order. Could I invite you, announcement amount to little more than sour Madam President, to ask Senator Hill to have grapes, because we have just delivered more a dip at answering this question. I really think for the car industry in one decision than they that you would have to acknowledge that had in 13 years. commentary on the constitutional convention This is what the Herald-Sun newspaper said is not in order and that he ought to be in- the day following the announcement: structed to answer the question. I ask you to draw that to his attention and direct him to The Opposition’s response, delivered by Labor’s answer the question. industry spokesman Simon Crean, was unfortunate- ly in line with the negativity of his colleagues’ The PRESIDENT—The minister still has response to the government’s tax reform plans. more than three minutes in which to answer 5940 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 the question. He may have strayed a little Senator ALSTON—I am not familiar with from what you would have preferred, but I the circumstances surrounding the cuts in think the minister should be allowed to relation to Cooma. answer the question as he sees it. Senator Woodley—You weren’t yesterday Senator HILL—I will not be long, Madam either. President. All I wanted to say is that the Senator ALSTON—No, it was a separate honourable senator has asked for the detail of question. I did not turn my mind to Cooma, the timetable, and I will be pleased to provide because I was not asked about it. But I am it to her. being asked about it today, and I am also being asked about a COSBOA report, of Senator NEAL—Madam President, I ask which I do not have knowledge either. If a supplementary question. Is it true that the there is anything that can be provided on petrol plan will progress no further until the those two matters, I imagine that you will fair trading report is implemented? The hear about it in due course. national chairman of the Shell National Action Group has stated: Clearly the government is conscious of the need to take account of the impact of cuts, We cannot allow the current Coalition Govern- but what I think you continue to ignore— ment to continue ignoring the plights of small presumably because it suits your own political businesses as exposed in the Fair Trading In- purposes—is that the government is commit- quiry. If they continue to ignore the important issues, they will be turning their backs on the ted to a new legislative framework which will very section of the business community which ensure greater efficiency, greater accountabili- not only voted them into power, but could solve ty and, ultimately, better results for the public, the unemployment problem overnight, if they whom the Public Service are meant to serve. were given the opportunity and conditions in which to flourish. You asked me about Dr Kemp’s remarks yesterday. Dr Kemp was releasing a report by Senator HILL—I do not think there is any Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu, which had been link between the two. As I said, I will seek commissioned by the Management Advisory advice on the timetable and come back and Board and its Management Improvement seek to be helpful. Advisory Committee as part of achieving the cost-effective personnel service project. Cooma: Public Sector Jobs It found that the proportion of human Senator ALLISON—My question is to the resources staff to total organisation employees Minister representing the Minister assisting for public sector organisations surveyed was the Prime Minster for Public Service Matters. 3.98 per cent, whereas best practice in the I refer the minister to the recent COSBOA private sector was 1.02 per cent. I do not study of Cooma, which found that the loss of know why you want to ignore these things. 361 government jobs in the town resulted in You somehow just want to throw your hands a total loss for the town of 180 families and up and say, ‘Shock! Horror!’ because there income of around $11.8 million. I ask: will seems to be a significant disparity in the the government be commissioning further figures which suggests that there are much studies on the effect of government service higher levels of inefficiency in the public cutbacks and public sector job losses on sector. regional communities before more public The direct costs of delivering HR services sector jobs are cut? Don’t the comments by in the APS agencies surveyed was, on aver- Dr Kemp yesterday signal that your Public age, two and a half times that of best practice. Service reforms are not about accountability The finding was that it takes about four or any effort to improve services and that they people in the Public Service to perform the are going ahead irrespective of the social and same personnel functions that can be provided economic consequences for regional centres by one person in the private sector under best and towns? practice. Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5941

That is my understanding of what Dr Kemp some sort of blind ideological commitment. was saying yesterday. It seems to be a very Dr Kemp is not on about that at all. Dr Kemp valid point arising from those findings. It is on about an efficient Public Service. That deals with the effectiveness of the provisions report was actually released in 1995. The of human relations services to staff in the report was handed to that lot opposite when public sector. I think the finding is that, they were in government, so it is not new whilst the private sector has a strategic view news; it is old news. The tragedy is that some of the role of human relations, in the public people have not caught up with its implica- sector it is almost seen as an end in itself, and tions. That is what you ought to be on about. the obsession is with the inputs rather than the outputs. You ought to be interested in efficiency, but you do not seem to be. You ought to be I think you would be doing everyone a interested in whether or not it is going to be great service—including taxpayers and those a better outcome for consumers and for users who want to work in an efficient environ- of the services. If they have to pay twice as ment—if you focused on outcomes, rather much to provide a service in country areas, than saying, ‘Shock! Horror! Isn’t it tragic then someone else goes without. That is what that a couple of jobs were lost,’ irrespective I think this report is all about. That is what of whether there might be very significant Dr Kemp was on about and, to the extent that benefits to taxpayers, because the more you we can help you on COSBOA and Cooma, promote inefficiency in the public sector, or we will do our best. anywhere else involving public funding, the less capacity we have to deliver a whole South Pacific Cruise Lines Ltd range of very important social services. If you are not really interested in that, then Senator O’BRIEN—My question is to the I presume you are in the same boat as that Minister for Employment, Education, Training crowd opposite who were happy to turn a and Youth Affairs, Senator Vanstone. Has blind eye to a $10 billion budget deficit and your department yet given you a proper go on saying, ‘Hang on! We can find another explanation as to why it has given at least area of need somewhere else where we would $2.8 million of taxpayers’ money to notorious like money spent. We will not care about the business shonks, Greg Adams and Rick bottom line. We’ll just go on handing out the Manietta? When did your department bring money.’ That is how you put up taxes. That this affair to your attention? Why has your is how you make sure Australia is not com- department put even more money into this petitive. That is how you go backwards at dubious project when the company, South twice the rate. Let us focus on what this Pacific Cruise Lines, has not been able to report was about. Forget the scaremongering, meet its contractual obligations? worry about the bottom line and you will go a lot further. Senator VANSTONE—Thank you, Madam President, and I thank you, Senator O’Brien, Senator ALLISON—Madam President, I although with some reluctance because I do ask a supplementary question. I thank the not have sufficient information at hand to minister for his attempt to answer yesterday’s concur with your assertion, made under question, and I also thank him for promising privilege, that these people are some sort of to get back to the Senate with answers to the notorious shonks. It is not a description that questions I raised earlier. Could he also tell I would automatically apply to anyone who us how many jobs have already been lost in found themselves in a bankrupt situation at regional areas since his government came to one stage of their life. In fact, if I wanted to office. How many more will go in Dr Kemp’s go through the list of bankruptcies caused by drive for further downsizing? the ineptitude of the last Labor government, Senator ALSTON—There you go; you are I would hardly be inclined to automatically at it again. You are incorrigible! You seem to assert that, because someone had been a think that more jobs will be lost because of bankrupt, they were a notorious shonk. 5942 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997

Senator O’Brien, you are a nice bloke, but could go out of action in that particular time? you are just a little bit impatient. You asked In view of the direct threat to 1,000 jobs in questions about this in the estimates commit- Burnie and Wesley Vale, and in view of the tee last week, and you were given answers. threat to 4,000 other jobs on the north-west You asked a question about this earlier this coast of regional Tasmania, what action can week. I told you I would have the additional be taken to speed up the anti-dumping inquiry information that you raised with me investi- process? gated and that, when I had satisfactorily had that investigated, I would come back to you. Senator ELLISON—I am aware of Senator You are just a whisker too impatient to expect Harradine’s great interest in this matter as he that that would be done by today. It will be has raised it with me previously, and I thank done. People are working on it. When I have him for the notice that he gave me on the an answer, I will give it to you. Okay? matter. At the outset, can I say that the Senator O’BRIEN—Madam President, I government is well aware of the importance ask a supplementary question. Minister, is it of the paper manufacturing plants at Burnie that your department will not tell you what it and Wesley Vale, which contribute an enor- is doing, or is it that you do not want to tell mous amount, both in employment and us what your department has done? It is purchases, to the Tasmanian economy. My beyond belief that we have had to wait for Tasmanian Senate colleagues have brought about 10 days for an explanation on some- this home to me as well. I am also well aware thing of this serious nature. Did you know of the potential effect on paper manufacturing that in the Courier-Mail today the principal of operations in Tasmania and the social impact the company admitted that the company was that it may have on the community there seeking money from US casinos in response should there be any dumping of coated wood- to an allegation that they were getting money free paper in Australia. from the Mob. Money from US casinos— what do you think that implies? By way of background, can I say that the Senator VANSTONE—Senator, you may previous government allowed 245 days as the be in the habit of taking a phrase like ‘money time frame for the investigation of a dumping from US casinos’ and attributing to it what- complaint. My predecessor, Geoff Prosser, ever your imagination allows, but I am not in commissioned the Willett review and, as a the position—and nor do I desire to be—to consequence of the recommendations of that make such inferences. I note that you do it review, the time frame for investigation was under privilege. It is up to you to decide what reduced by 30 days to 215 days. This time you say under privilege in this place. I told frame for undertaking anti-dumping investi- you that I would have the department investi- gations in Australia is very good when com- gate the matter. I told you that as soon as I pared to other major practitioners. Australia’s had the appropriate information I would give time frame for initiating dumping complaints it to you, and that answer stands. and reaching a decision is a total of 215 days. This comprises 20 days for an initial examin- Anti-Dumping Inquiry Process ation to determine if a prima facie case exists, Senator HARRADINE—My question is to and then there are 85 days allowed for Cus- the Minister for Customs and Consumer toms to come to a preliminary finding. After Affairs, Senator Ellison. It refers to the anti- that the matter then goes to the Anti-Dumping dumping action taken by Australian Paper Authority and that has a time frame of 110 against 14 countries, including Finland, days to make a final finding and then a Sweden, Switzerland and South Korea. Given recommendation to me. Currently the matter that an anti-dumping inquiry process takes at of dumping is on reference to the Productivity least 215 days to complete, and given the Commission and the terms of reference are serious financial threat and unfair competition being settled by the Treasurer and the that dumping represents, is the minister Minister for Industry, Science and Tourism, concerned that many Australian businesses my colleague Minister Moore. Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5943

In this case we have a complaint by the is too short, the investigation may well not be Australian industry which manufactures appropriate. As for resources, I can assure coated wood-free paper. It is against the Senator Harradine that there are over 20 exports of this paper from 14 countries in Customs officers involved in this investiga- Asia, Europe and South Africa. The applica- tion. But even if we had 100, the fact is that tion for dumping notices was lodged with the Europe is on holidays during this period of Australian Customs Service on 19 June this the year and that these are European count- year and on 9 July Customs initiated an ries. To get an answer from these European investigation of the allegations made in the countries is very hard at this point in time. application. The time frame in this investiga- Even if we could increase the number of tion has been extended from the normal 85 officers, we would still have that trouble in days to 120 days because of the complexity dealing with the overseas investigations. But of undertaking concurrent inquiries in 14 let me reassure Senator Harradine that Cus- countries. I might say that some of the inqui- toms is doing everything possible to bring this ries involve Customs officers going to count- to a swift conclusion. ries in Europe. Europe is now on holidays and this is making it very difficult to get informa- Millennium Bug tion from those European countries. Senator HOGG—My question is to Sena- Of course, what has to be found is that tor Ellison, the Minister representing the there has been dumping, then that there has Minister for Science and Technology. What been a material injury caused to the industry, assistance will the government be providing and that the material injury has been caused to government departments and Australian by the dumping. In arriving at a decision we businesses in view of the hundreds of millions have to make investigations in countries as to of dollars they will need to spend to avoid the the pricing of the goods concerned. Adding to impact of the millennium bug? the complexity is the fact that we are dealing Senator ELLISON—I thank Senator Hogg with 14 countries and Customs will be visit- for that question. This in an area for which ing at least 22 companies. I can assure Sena- Minister McGauran has responsibility. I will tor Harradine that the Customs Service is undertake to approach the minister and get using every facility available and I have asked back to Senator Hogg on this. them to examine in every way possible how Senator HOGG—I ask a supplementary this time frame may be shortened. Other than question, Madam President. Minister, while that I will keep Senator Harradine and those you are referring the matter to Minister other senators interested as to the progress of McGauran, you may be aware that he has this matter. predicted that the cost to government depart- Senator HARRADINE—Madam President, ments could be as high as tens, and possibly I ask a supplementary question, on two hundreds, of millions of dollars and the cost things. Firstly, the resources available to to Australian business could be as high as $6 Customs—is that a problem at the present billion. Will you ask the minister to confirm moment? Have you made extra resources that, notwithstanding these costs, the govern- available so that there will be a rapid result of ment will be making no further budget alloca- their inquiries? Secondly, in respect of the tions to address the problem? undertaking given before the last election to Senator ELLISON—Madam President, reduce the time period to 150 days, is that Senator Hogg can rest assured that I will take likely to materialise in the near future? that matter up with the minister. Senator ELLISON—The answer to the second question depends upon the review by Telecommunications the Productivity Commission. But can I say Senator FERRIS—My question is directed that one of the problems we have here is that to the Minister for Communications and the we have to conduct a comprehensive investi- Arts. Is it a fact that as a result of this gation within a proper time frame. If the time government’s policies Australia now has one 5944 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 of the most open and competitive telecom- government can be very pleased with the munications regimes in the world? What infrastructure competition emerging in re- evidence is there that business and residential sponse to the July 1 liberalisation.’ TechniCall telecommunication users are already reaping is now offering 20,000 new smart pay phones. the benefits of this highly competitive new Austar is offering a trialling of a wireless regime? Given that this regime only began on interconnect access service in Ballarat. The 1 July, what is the likelihood of further ben- Asia-Pacific head of on-line services for efits for consumers in the coming months? AT&T said recently that last month’s deregu- Senator ALSTON—Yes, it is a very good lation of the Australian telecommunications news story. Certainly since 1 July we have industry should encourage a new diversity of had further dramatic evidence of the fact that communication services such as Internet we now have one of the most liberalised and telephony. effective telecommunications regimes in the It is a very good story indeed. The great world. In fact before the local carriers in the shame is that Senator Schacht has actually US can enter the long distance market they been sent off the field and he is not here to have to go through a series of tests and hear all the good news. He is no Nathan certainly the interconnection regime we have Buckley and we know he has not had a great here has been confirmed by American authori- year, but I would have thought that he at least ties as a much fairer and quicker one in terms deserved another game. Whether or not he is of providing access to carriers and consumers. at the weather bureau trying to unban the There have been substantial price reductions weather, whether he is at the ABC apologis- following 1 July. AAPT announced it would ing profusely for all the harm he did to their offer up to 60 per cent off the current costs of prospects and indeed to the government’s own national and international long distance calls. prospects, who knows. Primus-Globe-Talk has reduced all its interna- It is a tragedy that we have yet another tional charges. WorldxChange is now offering impromptu meeting of the sandpit club. There a flat rate of 39 cents a minute for calls to the they are—those who cannot face the music, US, which is about a third of the Telstra peak those who want to bury their heads in the week day tariff. Telstra is now offering, for sand. This is the biggest sandpit club in the a higher up-front line rental charge, local calls world. All they want to do is just pretend it for as little as 18 cents for households and 12 is not happening. They can only go one step cents for high volume businesses. further. They can join Senator Schacht in the There is a great deal that has already change room. If they want to go out and have happened and I think there is a lot more in a good hard look at themselves, here is the prospect. If you want to know where you can big opportunity. Go back to square one, get get comparative information about prices, then your policies right, think about what is hap- there is a web page—www.phone4less.com.au pening in this area, as is happening in so —which provides all of the relevant informa- many other areas, and you will get it right. If tion that consumers need to make those you cannot get any hard ball gets then we are comparative choices. happy to give you some training. All I have From 1 July the interim interconnection to say is that, to date, you are well off the price for Telstra’s national access service has mark. dropped by about 35 per cent. Many new Senator FERRIS—Madam President, I ask players have entered the market. Yesterday a supplementary question. Could the minister we had the announcement that Victoria’s further explain the benefits to rural and privatised electricity distributor, United regional Australia as a result of this new Energy, was licensed as a carrier. AAPT, telecommunications regime? Primus, Horizon and OmniCONNECT have Senator ALSTON—Certainly in regional all have been licensed since 1 July. and rural Australia there are a lot of very The authoritative Australian Communica- significant benefits, particularly as a result of tions magazine says, ‘All up, the federal our decision which involved persuading Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5945

Telstra to upgrade the modernisation of its section 109 of the constitution and legislate to networks by two years to make their exchang- ensure paramountcy? es ISDN capable to the tune of 93.4 per cent Senator ELLISON—Senator Foreman must by 1 July this year. Our regional telecom- have heard the answer I gave previously munications infrastructure fund, which of because, as I stated, the government is cur- course was part and parcel of the partial rently considering its position and taking privatisation of Telstra, which this mob advice. It will make its announcement once it opposed absolutely—lock, stock and barrel; has considered the implications of the case. It they would not have a bar of it—is working would be improper to do anything else and to as it should, providing very significant ben- do it in a hasty manner. efits. But they are not even prepared to concede that. Austudy: Fraud Investigation In Tasmania only recently they made a $4.5 Senator STOTT DESPOJA—Madam million allocation—the first in a series—to President— provide a new electronic commerce centre to Government senators interjecting— enable a number of small businesses in the Senator STOTT DESPOJA—My question fields of dairying and aquiculture to get on- is addressed to the noisy Minister for Employ- line and hopefully deliver the sorts of services ment, Education, Training and Youth Affairs. that are already happening in other parts of Minister, the Commonwealth’s fraud control Australia. Regional Australia has a lot to gain policy sets out a number of requirements for and it is all thanks to our efforts, not theirs. agencies to have procedures in place to (Time expired) prevent fraud. I understand in your depart- ment there are some 30 investigators to chase Commonwealth Immunity from State up Austudy overpayments and other fraud Laws matters. Are these departmental investigators Senator FOREMAN—My question is doing the work of investigating crimes against directed to the Minister representing the the Commonwealth? Where does the govern- Attorney-General. I refer the minister to the ment draw the line between the work of federal government’s recent set back in the police dealing with crime and in-house inves- High Court on the issue of Commonwealth tigators doing the same task? Can you assure immunity from state laws in the Defence the Senate that these investigators are not Housing Authority case. Given the court’s doing police work without the protections recognition that the Commonwealth can be built in for a police officer’s job such as inter- regulated by state laws in a manner more rogating Austudy recipients who are aged extensive than that submitted by the under 18 without an adult present? Commonwealth, what changes, if any, are Senator VANSTONE—Senator Stott anticipated to current Commonwealth arrange- Despoja, I would love to give you a long ments? answer to your first question in three months so that you could salivate over the opportuni- Senator ELLISON—That is an area that ty that your leader has finally given you. You the Attorney-General has responsibility for ask a question that goes clearly to the specif- and he is reviewing the implications of that ics of a case that, in my view, you have in case, Senator Foreman, and considering the mind. The matter, generally, that you raise is government’s position in relation to that. The a difficult matter. There are investigators in government is not in a position at this point the health commission in a whole variety of to state how it will react to the decision. areas where departmental people will have Senator FOREMAN—Madam President, investigators, and it is sometimes a fine line I ask a supplementary question. Does the as to when matters should be handed over to government intend to introduce legislation to the police. facilitate changes to current arrangements or Certainly, if you have an example of where will the government use its powers under you believe a young person has been put at 5946 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 risk by inappropriate behaviour, I would hope students will be affected by these cuts? How that you would immediately and privately many will no longer be able to complete their give me that example and I will undertake to courses? Can you explain how these students follow it up. If that is not the case and your will be better off because of your policies for question was more of a general nature, I will indigenous education? certainly make inquiries in the department to Senator VANSTONE—Thank you, Senator ascertain not only whether that is happening, Bolkus, for your question in relation to the but also to give you a broader answer general- tighter targeting of Abstudy introduced in this ly as to the clear distinction, to the extent it budget. What I indicated to the Senate yester- ever can be, between departmental investiga- day stands. You are asking me now specifi- tors and when matters should be handed over cally about changes to Abstudy regulations. to other law enforcement authorities. As I started to indicate to Senator Denman—I Senator STOTT DESPOJA—Madam said I would come back to her but I will take President, I ask a supplementary question. I the opportunity to give a little more informa- appreciate the Minister’s willingness. I would tion now; I will, nonetheless, come back to also appreciate an answer on this one. you, Senator Denman, fully—there were some Minister, I have similar questions on notice, savings to be made in relation to Abstudy in as your department would be aware. Are you this budget. They were in the vicinity of $10 stating to the Senate that you are not aware of million a year which I think compares very examples of young people—that is, under the favourably, if you like, to the sorts of ex- age of 18—being interrogated in their homes penditures that we are outlaying on indigen- without an adult present? Would you condone ous education. such an activity? That $10 million a year is made up of 13 Senator VANSTONE—Senator, you can individual changes, one of which I freely draw a long bow if you like. You asked admit we have had some difficulty with. That whether that sort of thing was happening and relates to students travelling away from home I simply said to you that, if you have a case for their courses. As soon as we realised that of it, I would like to know about it. I did not that was a problem for them, we were in imply that I believed it was happening or that discussions with the relevant institutions and I believed it was not happening, nor did I I believe we are very close to resolving that give you any indication necessarily of wheth- situation. Senator Bob Collins raised it with er I thought it was appropriate. What I said me. I indicated to him, as I recall, that we was, if you have got a case—or cases—then were already on the job attempting to make raise it with me and I will be happy to follow sure that those institutions were not particu- it up; and I will take your question generally larly disadvantaged. on notice and come back with a full answer in respect of the individual suggestions you Can I give you an idea of the sorts of have raised and, more generally, cover the changes that we have made, so that you field of those activities. understand why we made them. For example, students in Abstudy are entitled to compas- Education: Indigenous Students sionate travel—that is, to return home. That Senator BOLKUS—My question is also to is a perfectly reasonable requirement on the Minister for Employment, Education, behalf of Abstudy students, but the govern- Training and Youth Affairs, Senator ment does not believe it is reasonable to not Vanstone. Minister, I refer you to the answer have a cap on that. For example, the number you gave yesterday in respect of your of trips that could be taken was unlimited. government’s record on indigenous education. The government has put a cap on that and In giving your answer, why did you forget students will now be limited to two return that in your last budget you halved Abstudy trips a year for full-time, away-from-home entitlements for students attending basic students; and compassionate travel cannot be tertiary residential courses from eight weeks used for students suspended from school and per year to four weeks? Minister, how many those attending away-from-base activities. Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5947

Independent and pensioner students who use better off? Minister, why were these institu- travel entitlements— tions not consulted before you took these Senator Bolkus—You’re on the wrong drastic measures to slash benefits? page! Senator VANSTONE—Senator Bolkus, Senator VANSTONE—No, I am not. with John Ingram at Batchelor College acting Independent and pensioner students who use as a sort of CEO and Gatjil Djerrkura as the travel entitlements for dependents will not be chairman, I think you can be satisfied that no eligible for fare allowance during the year for harm will be brought to bear on Batchelor themselves or for their dependents. Gradu- College. ation travel will be limited to students ap- Senator Bolkus—They have influence? proved for fare allowance to undertake their Senator VANSTONE—Yes— course away from their permanent home. These are all perfectly reasonable changes. Senator Bolkus—So it’s who you know, is it? If you went to the man in the street and said, ‘Do you believe the Abstudy entitlement Senator VANSTONE—No, I do not say it should include an unlimited opportunity for is who you know. compassionate leave to return home?’ the Senator Faulkner—That is just what you answer would be, ‘No.’ If you then said, ‘Do said. you think two trips a year is reasonable?’ the Senator VANSTONE—No, it is not. answer, in my view, would unquestionably be, ‘Yes.’ Senator Faulkner—Explain yourself. There was an allowance in Abstudy for Senator VANSTONE—You never ex- some ancillary expenses that I do not have the plained your ineptitude. Batchelor College specific details on, but I will just give you will come to no harm under this government, this one example. The vast majority of nor will the other indigenous education Abstudy applicants taking advantage of that providers. If you had a better record in this had ancillary expenses of under $2,000. As I area, you might be entitled to ask this ques- am advised, there was a very small number— tion without looking vaguely embarrassed, in the vicinity of 10 but, I think, fewer than given your failure to achieve anything for that, sharing 87 or three—in the vicinity of indigenous education. $80,000. That is unreasonable. Nobody would Senator Faulkner—It’s not what you expect that to continue. So a limitation of know, it’s who you know! You have to be in $2,000 was put on in the ancillary expenses. the swim! We could go through each of the procedures Senator VANSTONE—You did not if we had time, but I think you will find that achieve anything of substance whatsoever. So they are reasonable. (Time expired) do not worry about Batchelor College. It is in Senator BOLKUS—Madam President, I safe hands. ask a supplementary question. Minister, you Youth Allowance did not answer the question. I referred you to the slashing of weekly benefits from eight Senator O’CHEE—My question is ad- weeks per year to four. You glibly refer to dressed to the Minister for Social Security, tighter targeting when in fact we are talking Senator Newman, and it relates to an import- about the slashing of entitlements. If you have ant issue in Queensland. Minister, what will been involved with the institutions, as you say be the real benefits to young people in region- you have, can you inform us what the impact al areas of Queensland under the youth allow- of these cuts will be, for instance, on Batche- ance? How will the youth allowance improve lor College in the Northern Territory, where the income support arrangements for young it is predicted that enrolments will fall by people living in rural and regional areas of some 80 per cent, student load targets will not Australia? be met and the funding base of the college Senator NEWMAN—Senator O’Chee, like will also collapse? How will these students be me, lives in regional Australia and has a 5948 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 special interest in the needs of the people who about the new apprenticeship scheme, which live around us, which have not always been he released under a national campaign. In one accommodated in the past and, certainly, week that has been the interest from around under the previous government did not get the country. much attention. The youth allowance is a For the first time, some 70,000 young significant social policy reform, as I have said people who need to live away from home for before in this place, and it is going to simpli- study or jobsearch will be eligible for rent fy and improve the income support arrange- assistance, and that is up to a maximum of ments for young Australians wherever they nearly $75 a fortnight. It will make a massive might live. It has many positive aspects, and difference in the living standards of young I am pleased to note that many of them have people who have to go away to study or to been acknowledged by some of the welfare work. The parental income cut-out point for organisations I have consulted with as well as a family with one dependent living away from by the Australian Democrats. home and getting the full rate of rent assist- The youth allowance will be paid to more ance will be $58,658, and that will increase than half a million young Australians who are for additional dependents. That is more in education, training or jobsearch. For the generous than the current situation with overwhelming majority of young people Austudy. currently receiving income support—about Young people under 18 living away from 378,000—their entitlements will not be home will also receive an increased rate of changed under the youth allowance. In fact, payment—and that means about 15,000 many of them will be eligible for more unemployed and 19,500 thousand students. assistance than they currently receive—by that Under the youth allowance, the requirement I mean about 137,000 more. under Austudy for a minimum entitlement of The youth allowance is all about providing $1,000 a year will be abolished, and that will incentives for young people to take up educa- help an estimated 41,200 students. The aboli- tion and training opportunities because that is tion of the education leaver waiting period the best prospect for them to secure a job. We will benefit another 19,900 former students. simply cannot continue to send a message to Youth allowance recipients will also be young people that they are better off on the eligible for the remote area allowance and dole than in education or training. Young also for a pharmaceutical allowance. people who leave school without any qualifi- The previous government on a number of cations are three times more likely to be occasions acknowledged the need to keep unemployed. young people acquiring skills. The sad thing The youth allowance will be particularly is that they left the disincentives in place appreciated by families in regional Australia whereby you were financially better off if you because it provides real incentive and support were unemployed than if you were in study. for young people living in regional and rural For kids from regional Australia, that meant areas who might have to move away from they did not get the education and training home to take up education, training or look they deserved. (Time expired) for work. This is not about keeping unwilling Senator O’CHEE—I ask a supplementary students in school. You can acquire job skills question. Minister, does that mean that young in a variety of ways. It is about providing people, for example, who live in small coun- incentives to take up appropriate education try towns who would have to travel away to and/or training. study will not have the disincentives that used Dr Kemp’s plan for $550 million for at to exist and will in fact have a better oppor- least 220,000 new apprenticeships and tunity to travel away and study and a better traineeships gives an indication of how opportunity to get skills? committed we are to encouraging young Senator NEWMAN—That is absolutely people. Dr Kemp has said that 3,650 inquiries what will happen. That is why there has been have already been received on the hotline such a marked response from people in Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5949 regional areas. They recognise that, for many The next two aspects of this question were of them, it has been impossible to give their in relation to the anticipation of a surplus children the opportunities they wanted to give from the Medicare levy and the size of that them in life. That was especially the case over surplus. My advice is that, at this stage, be- the last 13 years. What happened was that cause of the answer to the previous question, families who had several children either gave it is difficult to assess whether there will be none of their children the opportunity to go a surplus and, if so, what size it will be. away and study or train, or they were in the The fourth part of Senator Hogg’s question invidious position of having to choose be- related to the $63 million spent on administra- tween one of several children. How did they tion. The government believes that the admin- choose who got that chance in life? istration costs are not too high. These costs This massive improvement in training include not only the cost of administering the opportunities as well as in financial assistance compensation program but also funding for for young people who are going away to new licensing and registration systems and for study or work or train is going to make a public education. These funds were provided huge difference to those families who never by the Commonwealth in response to repre- could have afforded in the past to see their sentation from the states and territories. children get the opportunities they needed. I The final and fifth aspect of Senator Hogg’s think that we all see great recognition all question was whether, when the government around country Australia of what this govern- conducted an audited scheme, it would in- ment has done for their children. clude an audit of the administration expenses Senator Hill—Madam President, I ask that incurred by state and territory governments. further questions be placed on the Notice To that I can say, yes, part of the agreement Paper. with the states and territories for funding of their buyback and other systems was that ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS WITHOUT there would be a final audit to ensure that the NOTICE substantial taxpayer contribution to this process was properly spent. Firearms Buyback South Pacific Cruise Lines Ltd Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— Senator O’BRIEN (Tasmania) (3.04 Minister for Customs and Consumer Affairs p.m.)—I move: and Minister Assisting the Attorney-General) (3.01 p.m.)—Yesterday Senator Hogg asked That the Senate take note of the answer given by me a question on the firearms buyback. The the Minister for Employment, Education, Training and Youth Affairs (Senator Vanstone), to a question question he put had five parts to it. The first without notice asked by Senator O’Brien today, was: what does the government anticipate the relating to South Pacific Cruise Lines Ltd. spending for the final month of the firearms buyback will be? The answer to that is that it I want to refer to what appears to me to be a is not possible to give an accurate estimate, rather sorry saga about South Pacific Cruise but advice from the states and territories Lines Ltd—if it is a cruise line. This is a indicates that up to an additional $50 million company that did not exist until very late last may be paid in compensation to individual year. Frankly, if you explore its history and firearm owners by the end of September. the history of its dealings with this depart- Each state and territory is also assessing ment, you become more and more alarmed. claims for compensation for loss of business In February of 1997, DEETYA entered into from licensed firearms dealers, and that negotiations with a training provider from assessment process will continue for several Victoria, William Angliss 2000. On 17 Feb- months. Because of the relatively complex ruary, a Mr Greg Adams, whom I mentioned nature of those assessments, it is now not in question time, resigned as director of the possible to provide a final figure for compen- South Pacific Cruise Lines Ltd. According to sation to be paid to firearms dealers. the Courier-Mail, he has been involved with 5950 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 a string of failed companies and is linked to pore, as of an inquiry on Monday. The auth- two New South Wales companies which are orities in Singapore are not aware of any subject to winding-up actions in the New intention to move it. But perhaps there is an South Wales Supreme Court with over intention—one never knows with these things. $60,000 in debts. William Angliss, the trainer, said on 8 July Mr Adams said that he was made a director that the ship might not materialise. The only in May and that the ASC records were general manager of the company, Mr wrong. I doubt that. Two days after his McGregor, announced that the vessel that they resignation, the Queensland minister, Mr announced they had in February is the MS Davidson, announced that that government Alloura, but it is not the same vessel. They was supporting this cruise line venture. Later, have changed tack since they told the Queens- just before contracts with the Commonwealth land government—and apparently this depart- were signed for the funding which we have ment—that they had a vessel. been discussing, Mr Adams was reappointed Yesterday in the Queensland parliament Mr as director. Davidson, the Minister for Tourism, stated There have been contracts which were that an agreement had been struck by the signed on 16 May between the department shipping line, South Pacific Cruise Lines, and and this cruise line company to provide $2.8 DEETYA, for about $2.7 million. We know million to the company for training at a rate it is $2.8 million. He stated: which is exceptionally high, which is effec- I understand that there has been a further allocation tively providing this company with funding of of funding to South Pacific Cruise Lines. $800 per trainee per week for a training That is the question I asked the minister program. That is an exceptionally high figure. yesterday. I asked the minister again today to Payments have been made—unacquitted give us some information, and the minister advances to this company, a company which declined. The minister says she needs more apparently has very little in terms of assets. information. I think you should note that Mr In the Queensland parliament—I am sur- Davidson, the minister in Queensland, had prised the minister has not been watching the this to say: Queensland parliament—it has been revealed I have done everything we possibly can to ensure that the shares in this company are held by that the Government— individuals on behalf of another company. he means the Queensland government— That company, which is known as Chancellor Australia Pty Ltd, was evicted from its Syd- has not been exposed to South Pacific Cruise Lines. ney premises in April of this year for failing But the Commonwealth is well and truly to pay its rent. So the company that the exposed. Commonwealth is funding to the tune of $2.8 Senator CHRIS EVANS (Western Austral- million is owned by a company that cannot ia) (3.09 p.m.)—I wish to speak on the same afford to pay its rent and it has directors who matter; that is, the answer given by the have very, very dubious business back- Minister for Employment, Education, Training grounds. and Youth Affairs (Senator Vanstone) in The minister adverted to my comments response to Senator O’Brien’s question today. about the article in Courier-Mail today where I think it raises very serious concerns about the principals of the company admitted that accountability, and the accountability of the they were seeking finance—I believe to the minister to this chamber. tune of $5 million—from US casinos for this The minister has within her portfolio allo- operation. Apparently they cannot get it from cated $2.8 million of taxpayers’ money to a traditional lenders, probably because there are private company with no corporate record and not assets there to justify an investment. with directors who have extremely question- The ship that the company is pursuing, as able backgrounds to their business dealings. I understand it, is not known as the Alloura— The minister has been unable to account to as they say. It is still in dry dock in Singa- this parliament the measures taken to ensure Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5951 that that money has been spent correctly and This money has been allocated as a grant that taxpayers have got value for money. from a program called training for employ- ment; the idea being that the training funds It is not as if the minister has not had are provided by the government in return for warning of this issue. The money was handed a guarantee of jobs—jobs for young people in over to this company—$2.8 million of Queensland. It seems unlikely that the com- taxpayers’ money—on 5 June this year. As pany will be able to provide those jobs. If early as 11 June concern was raised in the they default on that contract that money has Queensland press about the qualifications of largely been wasted. We want to know what the directors of this company to receive the minister is doing about it. public funds, given their corporate record. Since that time there has been a range of We have not been unreasonable. We have speculation and concern raised within the asked her at every opportunity to investigate Queensland parliament and by the press in and report back to the parliament. She keeps Queensland. ducking the issue. The buck stops with Sena- On 19 August this year, Senator O’Brien tor Vanstone: at least $2.8 million of and I both raised with the minister our con- taxpayers’ money; an allegation that either cerns about the expenditure of this money. she or the department has approved even We asked her and her department to account further funds; no explanation about what for their actions in relation to this grant. The checks were made into the bona fides of this minister was unable to assist us. The depart- company; what guarantees there are about the ment, unlike its usual high standards of use of the money and the protection of the competence, was unable to give satisfactory taxpayers’ interests; what action the minister responses as to their handling of this matter. has taken to ensure proper processes; and what action she has taken to allay concerns Yesterday, Senator O’Brien quite rightly raised at estimates about those processes. sought to pursue that matter with the minister, and asked for her explanation as to the ex- Quite frankly, the department could not penditure of these funds. Not only did he provide a satisfactory explanation of their raise the concerns that have been raised in the processes before they handed over $2.8 press and raised by Senator O’Brien and me million of taxpayers’ money. The best they at estimates, he raised a further allegation. could say was that they did a company search The allegation is based on information we and that the company was a listed company. have received that, in addition to the $2.8 It had only been in formation, I think, since million already allocated to this firm, since December last year. The company does not that time the minister and/or the department have the necessary company record or finan- has approved even further funds to be given cial base to be involved in the sort of exercise to this company. They have thrown good that they embarked upon. Now Senator money after bad, it seems. O’Brien has raised very serious concerns about the bona fides of the directors; bona It is quite unacceptable for the minister to fides that would have every Australian, I fail to provide an answer to Senator O’Brien’s think, most concerned about this use of question. She has had, as I say, since esti- taxpayers’ money. mates on 19 August to address the concerns raised with her. Her department admits they The minister must be held accountable. She have been aware of concern about the bona must come into this parliament today, in my fides of the directors involved in this com- view, and provide answers. That is not unrea- pany since 11 June. It really is unacceptable sonable. If more money has been allocated to that the minister is not able to provide an- this company since these concerns have been swers about what has happened to the raised, the minister will be hard pressed to taxpayers’ money and what processes have defend her actions. (Time expired) been put in place by her to ensure proper accountability for that money. Question resolved in the affirmative. 5952 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997

COMMITTEES MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Economics Legislation Committee White Paper on Foreign and Trade Meeting Policy Motion (by Senator Calvert, at the request Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queens- of Senator Ferguson) agreed to: land—Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for the Environment) (3.17 p.m.)—I table a That the Economics Legislation Committee be statement by the Minister for Foreign Affairs authorised to hold a public hearing during the (Mr Downer) on the White Paper on Foreign sitting of the Senate on Monday, 1 September 1997 from 7.30 p.m. to take evidence in respect of the and Trade Policy, together with the white Workplace Relations and Small Business portfolio paper, and seek leave to incorporate the as part of its examination of the supplementary statement in Hansard and to move a motion estimates. in relation to the documents. Membership Leave granted. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—The Presi- The statement read as follows— dent has received letters from party leaders This is the first White Paper on foreign and trade seeking variations to the membership of policy produced by an Australian government. committees. Its publication reflects the government’s commit- ment to a foreign and trade policy which the Motion (by Senator Ian Macdonald)—by Australian community understands and supports. leave—agreed to: This White Paper puts the national interests of That senators be discharged from and appointed Australia squarely at the centre of Australian to committees as follows: foreign and trade policy. Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade References Its fundamental message is that, in all that it does Committee— in foreign and trade policy, the government will Participating member: Senator Ferris for the apply a basic test of national interest: does it committee’s inquiry into Australia in relation advance the security of the Australian nation, and to Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation. the jobs and standard of living of the Australian people. The answers to these specific questions Native Title and the Aboriginal and Torres Strait must always be yes. Islander Land Fund—Joint Statutory Commit- tee— A clear sense of the national interest, an under- standing of what is important for Australians and Appointed: Senator Bolkus. confidence in the capacity of Australia to shape its Discharged: Senator Reynolds. future internationally define this government’s approach to foreign and trade policy. Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Refer- ences Committee— The starting point of this White Paper is that an active foreign and trade policy is crucial to Discharged: Senator Tambling. Australia’s future security and prosperity. TAXATION LAWS AMENDMENT It is crucial because Australia has global interests. BILL (No. 3) 1997 It is part of the global economy. Its prosperity is tied to its performance as a trading nation. Its Consideration of House of security is closely tied to the security of its neigh- Representatives Message bourhood. But our horizons must extend well beyond our immediate region. This is the experi- Message received from the House of Repre- ence of our past and it is the key to our future. For sentatives agreeing to amendment Nos 2, 3 Australia, the alternative to a foreign and trade and 4 made by the Senate and disagreeing to policy of broad scope is irrelevance and decline. amendment No. 1 made by the Senate and The policies and strategies set out in this White requesting the reconsideration of the bill in Paper represent both change and continuity. respect of the amendment disagreed to. The national interest does not change with a change of government. The priority accorded to the Asia Ordered that consideration of the message Pacific, the commitment to further trade in committee of the whole be made an order liberalisation, and the strong support for the World of the day for the next day of sitting. Trade Organisation and APEC are among the Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5953 important elements of continuity in the with the rapidly growing nations of the region. To government’s policy framework. that partnership we bring many economic, strategic They have been continued precisely because they and cultural strengths. To that partnership we bring advance Australia’s interests. a strong skills base, the vigour of an immigrant society and an unmatched cultural diversity. To that In other areas, however, this government will partnership we bring a broadly-based alliance with continue to rebalance and refocus Australia’s the United States whose strategic engagement and foreign and trade policy so that Australia’s interests commitment underwrite regional stability. To that are more effectively advanced. partnership we also bring our long-standing com- A feature of the government’s approach to foreign mercial and cultural links with Europe. and trade policy is the importance it places on Australia does not have to choose between its bilateral relationships as a means of advancing history and its geography. And the priority the Australian interests. Strong bilateral relationships government accords to the Asia Pacific does not are not an alternative to regional and global efforts, diminish the important interests Australia must but they are the basic building block for effective pursue in the Americas, Europe and elsewhere. regional and global strategies. These are all important assets which the govern- In pursuing these strategies the government will ment will ensure are properly marshalled and continue to accord the Asia Pacific its highest strategically directed in support of Australia’s priority. This document is our declaration of national interests. commitment to our neighbourhood as we begin what will surely be the Asia Pacific century. It None of this suggests that Australia can afford to reflects the weight of Australian interests which are be complacent about its future. engaged with the Asia Pacific: with the region’s Internationally, Australia will be facing, over the three major powers and largest economies—the next fifteen years, a much more competitive global United States, Japan and China—and with our trading and investment environment, a changing largest near neighbour—Indonesia. It reflects the strategic environment, as well as uncertainties in significant Australian interests which are engaged some key regional countries. in Australia’s relationships with the other ASEAN states, the Republic of Korea and New Zealand. It As the countries of Asia grow, Australia’s relative reflects the effort and priority we have attached to economic standing in the region will change. We Australia’s relationships with PNG and the other will be operating in a much more complex and island states of the South Pacific. And it reflects competitive regional environment. Australia will the initiatives this government has taken to deepen have to work hard and creatively to advance its Australia’s ties with South Asia. strategic and economic interests, and to influence the regional agenda. Linked to the government’s focus on bilateral relations is a more selective approach to the The White Paper is a document of policy and multilateral agenda. Australia must concentrate its analysis. involvement in multilateral issues on those areas Its judgement is that the two most profound where its national interests are closely engaged. influences on Australian foreign and trade policy National interests cannot be pursued without regard over the next fifteen years will be globalisation, to the values of the Australian community, includ- and the continuing economic rise of Asia. ing its support for fundamental human rights. Globalisation offers huge opportunities for interna- Central to these values is an unqualified commit- tionally competitive economies, but also brings ment to racial equality and to eliminating discrimi- challenges for political and economic management. nation. Racial discrimination is despicable whether It has profound implications for trade policy. It it is overt or clothed in isolationist nostalgia. The blurs the division between foreign and domestic rejection of racial discrimination is a moral issue policy, increases competitive pressures in markets, of the first order and it is fundamental to and makes globally based trade rules and disci- Australia’s engagement with the region where its plines even more important. vital security and economic interests lie. The White Paper’s judgement is that, notwithstand- This White Paper is also about the confidence ing some significant constraints, economic growth Australia should have in its capacity to shape its in industrialising Asia will continue at relatively future. high levels over the next fifteen years. The count- Australians should not underestimate the assets ries of Asia will become even more important to which characterise modern Australia. Ours is Australia as trade and investment partners, and in among the most East Asian oriented economies in security terms. the world; an economy larger than any in South The government’s foreign and trade policy objec- East Asia. Our objective is to build a partnership tives will be geared towards exercising leadership 5954 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 on the issues which advance Australia’s economic An integrated policy framework is crucial to and strategic interests. enhancing Australia’s international competitiveness. In a global economy the competitiveness of the This involves ensuring that Australians enjoy the Australian economy will be the single most import- growth in jobs and higher living standards which ant determinant of Australia’s future. come from an internationally competitive economy; that Australia’s region remains secure and stable; The government believes that economic strength is and that Australia maximises the economic and crucially linked to measures such as labour market strategic opportunities offered by even closer reform, investment in research and development, engagement with the Asia Pacific region. strengthening education and training systems, developing appropriate infrastructure, and imple- This is the path to the security, prosperity and jobs menting effective savings and taxation policies. which are the driving objectives of the government’s foreign and trade policy. This is the Foreign and trade policy can especially contribute jobs foreign and trade policy. Nothing else will do. through improving access to overseas markets for Our commitment to the Asia-Pacific region and the Australian goods, services and capital, and helping priority we give it will ensure that thousands of Australian business to identify and develop export jobs are created for all working-age Australians, markets. and of even more concern to them, real jobs for Advancing Australia’s interests is a task for all their children. Real security means more than the Australians and not just their governments. It defence of our borders. It also means the chance of requires communication and consultation among jobs and a decent standard of living for all Austral- governments at all levels, businesses and the ians. community. If Australia’s foreign and trade policies are to succeed they must attract the understanding The government’s strategy for advancing Aust- and support of the Australian community. ralia’s security interests is based on a hard-headed assessment of the security of the Asia Pacific This White Paper is an important contribution to region. Its key components are maintaining a strong that objective. It draws on the views of an Advis- national defence capability, the alliance relationship ory Panel of eminent Australians with wide experi- with the United States, expanding Australia’s ence of foreign and trade policy. Its preparation has bilateral, regional and multilateral security links— also involved consultations with state governments, including through expanded security dialogues—a business representatives, community groups and task on which the government has recently made academics. great progress—and strengthening Asia Pacific- wide regional security institutions of which the As Australia faces a new millennium, the currents ASEAN Regional Forum is the most significant. of international commerce and of power and The government will also be working to ensure that influence are shifting. In a new century likely to be the international regimes covering weapons of mass defined by the economic strength and increased destruction—nuclear, chemical and biological—are influence of the major Asian economies, Australia implemented and, where necessary, strengthened. can not rely on the advantages of geographic One of the government’s proudest achievements proximity and economic complementarity to secure was the key role we played in bringing to life the its future. We must engage with our region and Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty. understand it and the way in which it operates. The government’s trade strategies will focus on If Australia is to realise the promise of the twenty bilateral efforts, APEC, and the World Trade first century we must have a strong economy at Organisation. Each has a contribution to make to home and an active voice abroad. increasing Australia’s standard of living through This White Paper—Australia’s first-ever—gives expanded trade and investment. None offers the Australia’s foreign and trade policies the sharpest, only way ahead, and all three will be needed if clearest focus they have ever had: it represents the Australia is to continue to improve its trade per- coming of age of Australia’s foreign policy. formance. A major focus over the next five years will be pushing for genuinely closer links between Senator IAN MACDONALD—I move: CER, Australia’s economic relations agreement with New Zealand and the ASEAN Free Trade That the Senate take note of the documents. Area, AFTA. Senator CHRIS EVANS (Western Austral- Central to the strategies in this paper is a whole-of- ia) (3.18 p.m.)—I seek leave to continue my nation approach which emphasises the linkages remarks later. between domestic policies and foreign and trade policies. Leave granted; debate adjourned. Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5955

COMMITTEES consideration of the recommendations of the Wallis Committee’s Financial System Inquiry. Corporations and Securities Committee Yours Sincerely Report: Government Response PETER COSTELLO Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queens- Senator IAN MACDONALD—I move: land—Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister That the Senate take note of the document. for the Environment) (3.18 p.m.)—I present Question resolved in the affirmative. the government’s response to the report of the Public Works Committee Joint Statutory Committee on Corporations and Securities on the annual reports of the Report Australian Securities Commission and other Senator CALVERT (Tasmania) (3.19 bodies: 1994-95. I seek leave to incorporate p.m.)—On behalf of the Joint Committee on the document in Hansard and to move a Public Works, I present report No. 8 of 1997 motion in relation to the document. entitled Development of infrastructure on the Leave granted. Bradshaw Field Training Area, near Timber Creek, Northern Territory. I seek leave to The document read as follows— move a motion in relation to the report. TREASURER Leave granted. PARLIAMENT HOUSE CANBERRA ACT 2600 Senator CALVERT—I move: Telephone: (06) 277 7340 That the Senate take note of the report. Facsimile: (06) 273 3420 I seek leave to incorporate my tabling state- Senator Grant Chapman ment in Hansard. Chairman Leave granted. Parliamentary Joint Committee on Corporations and The statement read as follows— Securities Madam President, the report which I have tabled Parliament House concerns the proposed development of infrastruc- CANBERRA ACT 2600 ture on the Bradshaw Field Training Area, near 4 AUG 1997 Timber Creek, Northern Territory. Dear Senator Bradshaw Station is an 871,000 hectare pastoral I refer to the Report on the Annual Reports of the station which was purchased by Defence in Februa- Australian Securities Commission and Other ry 1996 as a training area for the Army’s 1 st Bodies: 1994-1995 by the Parliamentary Joint Brigade. The property is about 600 kilometres by Committee on Corporations and Securities tabled road from Darwin, along the Stuart and Victoria in Parliament on 25 March 1997. Highways and about 285 kilometres from Katherine In its report the Committee recommended that in the east and 230 kilometres from Kununurra to section 127 of the Australian Securities Commis- the west. sion Act 1989 (the ASC Act) should be reviewed: It is a huge property, about four times the size of to remove any ambiguity which may prevent the the ACT. In terms of distances, the property is 150 Australian Securities Commission (ASC) from kilometres east to west and 70 kilometres north to exchanging information with a foreign regulator south. or exchange; and The 1st Brigade is currently being relocated to to ensure that, when deciding to provide informa- increase the Defence presence in northern Australia. tion in situations of market crisis, the ASC is The relocation will be completed by the year 2000. able to consider both the public interest in the New facilities for the Brigade are being provided fair conduct of business and the individual’s right under the $530 million Army Presence in the North to be treated fairly. Project at Robertson Barracks, about 20 kilometres The issues of the exchange of information by east of Darwin. This project was previously exam- financial regulators, both domestically and interna- ined and reported on by the Committee. tionally, and the sharing of information by and with The proposal examined by the Committee involves financial exchanges, have also been addressed in the provision of: the Final Report of the Financial System Inquiry . a bridge over the Victoria River in the vicinity (’the Wallis Report’), released on 9 April 1997. of Timber Creek; The Government thus proposes to consider the . working accommodation for the Range Control Committee’s recommendation in the context of its organisation; 5956 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997

. living and working accommodation for the Range during the Second World War. The area is now managers; recognised as a model of restoration and environ- . communications facilities; mental management and the Committee commends . an internal road network; Defence for its environmental management policies. . two 500 person camps; The NT Government expressed strong support for the proposal at the public hearing and in a written . vehicle crossing points over creeks and rivers; submission. The Government commended Defence . two C-130 capable airfields; and in being transparent and consultative in its planning . vehicle wash points. and development processes. The estimated out turn cost of the proposed work As part of its inquiry, the Committee convened a is $53.66 million. public meeting at Timber Creek. It was evident to The Committee has recommended that the proposal everyone that the proposed development has the should proceed. strong support of the local community. The closest large training area used by the Army There will be economic benefits to be derived from in the Northern Territory is the Mount Bundey the construction works which are planned to extend Training Area. This is located 120 kilometres over 42 months. Some of the works will be of a south-east of Darwin and comprises l 14,000 suitable size and nature to attract tenders from local hectares. Whilst twice the size of the Puckapunyal trades and builders. Range, its size is inadequate for 1st Brigade to Initial investigations by Defence indicate that the manoeuvre and undertake live firing. For this expected nature and frequency of usage of the reason, Defence acquired Bradshaw. training area will provide some benefits through The infrastructure on Bradshaw is limited and increases in commodity consumption as a result of intended only to support the operation of a remote troop deployments into the area. cattle property. Period contracts for the supply of commodities, The Committee concluded that the Bradshaw such as fuel and foodstuffs, will be let competitive- property lacks the necessary infrastructure to enable ly. training at Brigade strength to be undertaken and I commend the report to the Senate. there is a need to develop the necessary infrastruc- ture to allow sub-units, units and formations to Question resolved in the affirmative. (Quor- conduct collective and joint training in live fire and um formed) manoeuvre activities. TEXTILES, CLOTHING AND After defining user requirements for the property, Defence examined a series of development alterna- FOOTWEAR INDUSTRIES tives. These ranged from a "do nothing" approach Senator COOK (Western Australia) (3.22 to full infrastructure development. p.m.)—I move: Bearing in mind that 1st Brigade will be totally relocated to Darwin by 2000, the Committee agreed That the Senate recognises that: with Defence that the most appropriate alternative (a) the future of the 100 000 Australian textile, would be full infrastructure development compris- clothing and footwear (TCF) workers must ing access and training support facilities, to meet be secured, together with future exports and Defence requirements. investment growth; The Committee concluded that the proposed (b) Australia is well ahead of its international facilities will provide the infrastructure to permit competitors in the reduction of tariffs in this and support cost effective and realistic training for industry; Australian Defence Force units stationed, or deployed for training, in the north. (c) if the Productivity Commission’s recom- mendations are implemented, at least 50 000 The infrastructure to be provided is necessary to Australian jobs will go off-shore and the ensure the long term operational and environmental remaining 50 000 workers will be forced viability of the Bradshaw Field Training Area as a into low-paid backyard operations; manoeuvre and live fire training area. The report briefly mentions the Defence record in (d) there should be a freeze on TCF tariffs from the environmental management of its training areas. the year 2000 to, at least, the year 2005, For example, the restoration of the seriously consistent with Australia’s international degraded Puckapunyal Training Area in Victoria obligations; which has taken place over three decades has, (e) the Import Credit Scheme must not be according to Defence, produced a remarkable result. removed without putting in place a program Puckapunyal was formerly seriously degraded by of equivalent value, consistent with previous grazing, heavy traffic and constant use Australia’s international obligations; and Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5957

(f) a review of future assistance arrangements a particularly telling force in dealing with should be undertaken in the year 2004, in issues of protection and industry assistance for consultation with the industry’s partners, this important sector. taking into account: (i) progress on TCF trade liberalisation I will turn in a moment to the Industry among Australia’s trading partners and Commission’s report on the textile, clothing competitors, and footwear industries. This report was (ii) the industry’s progress in meeting its brought down by the Industry Commission to commitments on employment, investment recommend to government steps that should and exports, and be taken, in the Industry Commission’s (iii) the effect of changes in the TCF industry charter, to—as the Industry Commission on regional Australia. would put it—reform this sector. This is a I seek support for this motion in the Senate report that has created massive unease within from government members as well as mem- this industry, not only among the workers in bers of the Democrats, the Greens and the this industry but also among the employers. Independents, so that this Senate, a chamber This is a report which has come at a time that represents the states of Australia, can when a major underwear manufacturer, Berlei, speak with one voice about jobs in an import- has announced that it is moving offshore. ant industry sector for Australia, an industry It is a report whose timing has coincided sector which is employment rich. with the announcement of other exits from This is, by and large, a labour intensive Australia of major companies and also small sector of the Australian economy. It is also a companies in this industry sector. In short, it sector which has, as a distinguishing feature, is a report whose timing, in terms of when it its presence in regional Australia. Industries was brought down, coincides with a reduction in the textile, clothing and footwear sector in employment opportunity and manufacturing relate closely to the primary production of capacity in this sector. It is a report which cotton, wool and other fibres. They are, finds that there would be more widespread therefore, not surprisingly found in major unemployment if the findings of it were rural centres of Australia and help underpin implemented further. the nature of rural employment and the The only way that anyone can look at this development of rural and regional economies report and the future of this sector is through in our nation. the needs of this economy to grow, to create The plight of regional Australia is one lasting jobs and to be more competitive. It is which is not often debated in this chamber. the contention of the opposition that this There is a tendency here to talk in macro report, if implemented, would not do that. It terms at a national level. But if one looks at would reduce opportunities, reduce jobs, and regional Australia, there is a lack of develop- reduce the capacity of industry to make the ment in that part of the nation, with a worry- transition to a more competitive base which ingly high level of unemployment which would secure the future for it in the foresee- means that anything that adversely affects its able period. interests damages the national good in a Before I turn to a detailed analysis of the severe way. But, more importantly, it con- Industry Commission’s report, might I say tinues the sense of isolation from capital cities that at question time today, the Leader of the that rural Australia feels and the hopelessness Government in the Senate, Senator Hill— that job seekers feel being confined geo- graphically to their region with little capacity Senator Ferguson—You don’t mean the to move out of it. report; you mean the draft report, don’t you? The textile, clothing and footwear industries Senator COOK—I mean the draft report, have those two significant characteristics Senator, and I thank you for the correction. which, when you consider them against The draft report is what is available to the Australia’s principal and major economic public for comment now. But having sat in concern—the level of unemployment—have cabinet, can I say that there is often very little 5958 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 difference between what is exposed for public Indeed, the industry is an exporter. The comment as the draft report and what, after total value of exports from the textile, cloth- hearing public comment, becomes the final ing and footwear sector in Australia over the report and the report upon which governments last year was in the realm of $500 million, adjudicate. equivalent to the amount of wine exported out But let me not be thrown off what I was of this country—a fact that most people do saying. In question time today, Senator Hill not appreciate. This is increasingly a sophisti- attacked me for statements that I had made as cated, highly skilled sector that is engaging in industry minister. Those statements related to top end of the market production. a reduction in protection for various industry If you are going to make those adjustments, sectors and a growth of competitiveness of you need the supports to have regard to Australian industry. On page 8 of the white developing the skill levels higher, to develop- paper tabled today by the Minister for Foreign ing greater employment security, to offer Affairs (Mr Downer) entitled In the National incentives for the maintenance of production Interest—Australia’s Foreign and Trade facilities onshore and not wave them goodbye Policy there is a time series graph which I on the dock as they flee overseas, to help hold now for display in the chamber. This regional Australia meet the particular needs of graph actually emphasises my point and those industry sectors in their regions as well, proves the contention that I was making. The and to provide investment so that there can be red line shows growth in export capability a basis for reinvestment in this industry and from Australia. The yellow line shows the its competitiveness can rise. reduction in protection. We had those programs in place. In the It was said in a cheap way by the Leader of 1996-97 budget, the first budget of this the Government in the Senate that there was government, those programs were substantial- something inconsistent about the Labor ly abolished. Programs that offered job securi- Party’s position on this issue. I want to say ty were thrown out the window. Programs that there is nothing inconsistent about the that took a particular approach to encouraging Labor Party’s position on this issue. The research and development were thrown out questions of industry adjustment and industry the window. Export incentives were removed competitiveness are fundamental questions for or reduced. Job insecurity was enhanced by intelligent debate in this country. Unfortu- removing regional initiatives as well. A whole nately, it is impossible to have an intelligent raft of things that help in the transition of an debate if one side—in this case, the govern- industry, that work with the industry and that ment—insists on being dumb and unintelli- assist the people in the industry and meet gent about what that issues are that are re- their needs were removed. quired in terms of adjustment. Senator Ferguson—Like DuPont; $60 We think the motion I have moved should million handout. be carried and that there should be a pause in tariff reductions. It has been said that that is Senator COOK—You mention the ques- inconsistent with what we were saying when tion of DuPont. I am surprised that you do. It we were in government. When we were in is unfortunate for your case that you have. government we had a series of industry DuPont has announced just this week that it policies and programs to support this industry, will be moving its fibre manufacturing facili- to protect employment, to offer retraining ties offshore. It has done so in the face of opportunities for people thrown out of em- what it reads as this government’s dislike of ployment who need to make an adjustment for the necessary supports for this industry sector. new jobs, to provide assistance for the acqui- Senator Ferguson, you ought to know better sition of capital equipment to make the than anyone else that you removed the re- industry more efficient, to encourage the search and development syndication scheme, industry to grow, and to open export markets you reduced R&D from 150 per cent to 125 for this industry. per cent, you cut out a whole range of export Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5959 market development grants and international applied to these goods, reducing from 10 per trade enhancement grants— cent in 2001 to two per cent in 2008. That is Senator Ferguson—You gave them a $60 option number two. We know what happens million handout. with bounties with this government. This government says, ‘The bounty cost is too The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! high. It is an outgoing expense on the outlays Senator Ferguson, you will get your turn very side of the budget. We will cut those too.’ shortly. Any industry sector in receipt of a bounty is Senator COOK—You reduced the supports on notice that that is a temporary thing. As necessary for this industry to reinvest and soon as the cost cutters of Treasury can get develop, and you did a range of other things their hands on it, so too will that benefit go. like that. No wonder companies say that they The third recommendation of the report is have no faith in you. No wonder they choose to end the import credit scheme on 30 June in what they regard as more congenial invest- the year 2000. That scheme has served this ment climates overseas. That is a travesty and industry well and it is necessary to encourage is close to a traitorous act by this govern- a competitive industry to export—something ment—traitorous to Australian workers, that the government has done in the case of traitorous to Australian industry and traitorous the automobile industry. But despite the to our capacity as a nation to be competitive government’s decision there—a decision made in an area and a sector in which we are world by the government at the urging of the Labor class. Party— So do not come to me about what we have Senator Ian Macdonald—You had no part done. We had a holistic program. You have in it at all. chopped away the supports and the struts of Senator COOK—I take that interjection, that program and want to blindly go barrelling that we had no part in it. For the record, Kim on down the road to more and more tariff cuts Beazley and Simon Crean went to Adelaide without any basis for this industry to make before the government made its announce- adjustment and without any concern for the ment and put down their plan on the Austral- human needs of the workers in this industry ian automotive industry—this was a key to be able to look forward to some prospect feature of it. When the Prime Minister was of job security for themselves in the future. finally dragooned into our position, of course The Industry Commission brought down its he did not acknowledge it but, nonetheless, report on 30 June this year and, as has been substantially adopted all the points we had pointed out, that is its draft report. A final proposed. The point I make here is that the report on this industry is due in September. A import credit scheme is fundamental to this key recommendation of the report was to industry sector becoming internationally reduce all TCF tariffs to five per cent by the competitive. The Industry Commission report year 2008 by continuing the current schedule recommends its abolition on 30 June 2000. beyond the year 2000, regardless—and this is Back to the report: it also recommends no my emphasis—of what our competitors do. further review of assistance for the industry That means that Australia unilaterally disarms and no further sectoral assistance to the itself while other nations do not move to industry; that is to say, the gate is slammed remove protection for their industries, leaving shut. While there was no formal dissenting us, given the changes that have been made by report, the agreement of Mr Phillip Brass, this government, to face the fierceness of who was the industry representative on the international competition without the neces- panel, was conditional on there being a sary levels of assistance. bounty applying to all TCF value-added The second recommendation was as above reducing from five per cent in 2001-02 to two for clothing and footwear, but with intermedi- per cent in 2004. The commission argued that ate goods—fabrics and yarns—reduced to its recommendations will directly lead—this zero in 2001 and a compensatory bounty seems to have escaped the attention of the 5960 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 government—to 5,000 job losses in the hands but to come out in the open and declare industry; that is, 5,000 jobs out of a current your position. employment level of 96,000. I hope you do better than the minister and It also notes that a GST would damage the the department have done because, despite industry because a large proportion of the massive cuts in assistance to industry pro- companies are so small that they are exempt grams in Australia in the 1996-97 budget, the from payroll tax and most TCF goods are Department of Industry, Science and Tourism exempt from wholesale sales tax. The underspent their budget allocation by $131 government’s flirtation with bringing back the million. An allocation of $7 million was made GST is, again—this time by the Industry in assistance to textiles, clothing and footwear Commission—revealed as a direct threat to but they spent only $3.3 million. They could this sector. not spend the other $3.7 million, not because Having noted the recommendations in this there was not a need but because the report, there are a number of observations that government’s own cutbacks in staffing meant can be made. The first is that, in reality, it is that they could not get the assistance where not 5,000 but about 100,000 Australian it was needed—at the coal face, to the work- textiles, clothing and footwear workers who ers and to the companies concerned in this stand to lose their jobs if the Productivity sector. That is an example of performance Commission’s recommendations are adopted which has sabotaged this industry as well. by the Howard government. At least 50,000 I hope the Senate supports this motion. If of these Australian jobs will go offshore and it does not, it will be a blow for job security many of the remaining workers will be forced and justice for this industry sector. (Time into low-paid backyard operations. In 1994-95 expired) the TCF industries accounted for five per cent Senator FERGUSON (South Australia) of total manufacturing employment—these are (3.42 p.m.)—During the time I sat on the in similar proportions in other OECD count- opposition benches, I quite often listened to ries. That level of employment would fall. Senator Cook, when he was minister, ex- TCF industries encompass a diverse range pounding with some enthusiasm the great of activities. Firms within the industry operate works of his government, particularly in the in a variety of different markets and with area of industry reform. Is it any wonder that varying levels of vertical integration; that is, Senator Cook has so little enthusiasm for the links between various stages of production task he is performing today in moving the such as spinning and weaving. Many firms motion that is before us. I can understand are also involved in horizontal integration; why Senator Cook is not enthusiastic: it goes that is, links between different types of TCF against all of the things that he believed in products, such as making both industrial and and said with such enthusiasm when he was household textiles. The majority of these a minister. Senator Cook, I congratulate you firms are located in Victoria and New South because you did those things with enthusiasm Wales, although many of these factories are when you were in government, and I have located in outer regional centres—DuPont in quite an understanding as to why you have so Bayswater in outer eastern Melbourne, and little enthusiasm for this general business Berlei in Lithgow. notice of motion today. Part (a) of your I conclude by saying: if the government is motion—which you did not refer to very dinkum about this industry, if it has a scintilla often—says: of concern about the future of the workers the future of the 100,000 Australian textile, clothing and the development of Australian industry, and footwear (TCF) workers must be secured, it will vote for the motion which I have together with future exports and investment growth. moved in this chamber. If it does not vote for How many jobs were lost under your tariff it, workers and industry people in Australia reduction regime from 1983 to 1996? How will see exactly where this government stands. many jobs were lost with the programs that This is an opportunity not to hide behind your you put in place? When tariffs were at their Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5961 highest and quotas were in place, people left Our task is to further the internationalisation of the the industry in droves. If you look at the economy and to consolidate and build further on graphs—they are freely available for those our export success. who want to see them—when tariffs were at . . . Our focus will therefore increasingly be on best their highest, that is when the greatest job practice, bench marking and the demonstration losses occurred in this industry, even when effect of successful business. there were quotas assisting these high tariffs So, Senator Cook, it is no wonder that you in order to try to maintain competitiveness but tackled today’s notice of motion with such also, supposedly, to protect jobs. little enthusiasm in the light of the statements Senator Cook—What point are you mak- that you have made in the past. ing? You talked about the draft report. The Senator FERGUSON—Let me just quote Industry Commission’s final report on the back to you a couple of things that you said textiles, clothing and footwear industries is while you were minister, Senator Cook. due out on 9 September. The government then Before I do, I will start with a quote from the will be making its final recommendations. It former Prime Minister, Mr Keating. On 15 has not taken a decision. Exactly the same May 1995, he said: attitude is being taken by you and some We have really opened the economy up. We started irresponsible members of your party and other reducing tariffs in 1988 and they will be at 5% by parties; that is, to try to force the government 1997, that is 2 years time. National economic into a position before the Industry Commis- policy is savoured. So tariff reductions work you sion has even put its final report down. That do it in your own best interests. is due on 9 September. Then in 1994, when referring to motor vehi- The Prime Minister (Mr Howard) is meeting cles, Senator Cook, you said: with joint delegations of unions and represen- It was said that if tariff reform was attempted in tatives of companies involved in the textile these areas— industry in Sydney on Friday. He will then that is, the transport sector, including manu- meet with another delegation next week. factures of motor vehicles— Senator Cook, that is how this matter should both sectors would be killed off entirely. be handled, not with a cheap shot through a general business notice of motion such as you They have not been; they are flourishing. have done today. Then on 7 June in 1995, you said: If we had left the tariff wall intact, the old poor We need to remember one or two things, quality, high-priced, inefficient Australian vehicle Senator Cook, because you mentioned the would have been overwhelmed and we would have DuPont situation. We need to remember what no car industry now. you said when you talked about your handout Then in November 1995, you said: mentality and the things that have happened Therefore, our thrust as government has been to before. You only need to read today’s Aus- push for opening up the economy, internationalising tralian, and I will quote from an article there. it through tariff change... The article states: In 1994, on sectoral assistance, Senator Cook, The chemical giant that will cut Australian you said: operations and slash 160 jobs was paid almost $60 million in government aid to keep manufacturing I am not a fan of sectoral planning. textiles as tariffs were reduced to zero. Senator Cook, have you changed your mind? They were paid $60 million in government If you were not a fan of sectoral planning in aid in order to keep manufacturing textiles. 1994, what are you now? Senator Cook, on The article goes on to say: the area of assistance, you said: An agreement DuPont made with Labor in mid- I must repeat, however, what my predecessors have 1990 promised its newly acquired Fibremakers said: The era of "handout" mentality is dead. synthetic fibremaking business would operate . . . As a Government we are committed to tariff without the benefits of tariff protection or bounties reductions and continuing micro-economic reform. in a trade-off for a $59.34 million cash handout. 5962 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997

DuPont was the first company to apply under the not changed. So that decision was made capitalisation grants program, gaining the largest because of decisions that were taken when share of the $141 million paid out to firms under you were in government, and it has nothing the scheme. to do with decisions that this government has So, Senator Cook, in moving this motion, you made or might make in the future. choose to ignore the facts as they are present- I want to make one or two comments about ed there today. You choose to ignore that and the government’s position. Only yesterday, 27 highlight that it is a decision of this govern- August, the Prime Minister (Mr Howard) ment that is costing 160 jobs when, in fact, assured workers in the textiles, clothing and no decision has been made by this govern- footwear industries that the government had ment. Up to now, DuPont have made all of taken their concerns on board. He said: their decisions working on the tariff regime that your government put in place. They also . . . when the government receives the final report, had the hide to accept $60 million of govern- it will take a speedy decision— ment aid on a promise that, as a trade-off, it is not going to hang around and leave they would operate without the benefits of people wondering what is going to happen— tariff protection or bounties in order to receive as it did with the motor manufacturing industry. this handout. The then Minister for Science And in taking that decision, it will certainly pay and Technology, Mr Simon Crean, at that very strong regard to the interests of employees in time in June 1990 said: the industry. To assist in integrating Australia into the global He went on: synthetic fibre market, the Government has ap- I regard the closure of factories like Berlei as being proved a one-off, after-tax grant of $36.2 million not only a tragedy for the employees, a tragedy for toDuPont... the City of Lithgow, but a tragedy for the region. That was just the first tranche of aid to So let me say that the Labor Party is being DuPont. So do not bring up DuPont as an totally hypocritical in its stance by calling for example. tariff protection now. When it was in govern- I heard your colleague Mr Crean in the ment, the arguments focused on no more other place talking about how 160 people at government handouts. DuPont would not be happy after the Senator Cook—A freeze! government’s actions of this week. Let me Senator FERGUSON—You never men- say that the 160 people at DuPont want to tioned a freeze when you were in government. remember that they received $60 million of When in government did you ever talk about aid to carry them through this process of a a tariffs freeze? I am very pleased that Sena- reduction of tariffs and the removal of bount- tor Murray will be speaking afterwards, ies. because I know Senator Murray’s position on DuPont was only acting under the rules as this: he will see through your arguments and they were set out by the Labor Party. They your telling this present government what it were no-one else’s rules—not the Industry should do today when you had 13 years to do Commission’s recommendations in the draft something about it—and still saw jobs slip report, nor the coalition’s tariff regime. If away. DuPont were serious, it ought to wait for the Your situation has changed because you lost final decision of the government on the TCF an election. Some of the people on your industries and not close its Bayswater plant. backbench—those new Young Turks that are We also had Berlei’s decision, which has talked about so often—want to change the been mentioned over the past week, to move direction the Labor Party is going in, and they their manufacturing offshore, which affects want to bring us back to the bad old days. over 200 workers in Lithgow. That decision Senator Cook, I understand your lack of was made under the tariff regime that was put enthusiasm for this motion, because I heard in place by the Labor government—no other you speak so enthusiastically from this side. government—because the tariff regime has You did so on many occasions with the full Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5963 support of the then opposition, the Liberal If DuPont is any example of what government Party, who approved of and supported what handouts or assistance to industry can do— you were doing. and the assistance that was given by your The enthusiasm you showed for this indus- government—to ensure that this company try while you were on this side was appreciat- stayed in Australia and maintained its fabric ed but now that you have gone to the opposi- making operations here, then I can say that it tion benches I can understand your lack of is one of the greatest failures that you have enthusiasm: you had a chance to do some- ever seen. If you think that those things will thing about it and you did nothing. be easily forgotten, I can tell you that they will not. Your shadow industry minister Simon Crean is calling for the exact opposite of what I have a number of colleagues who wish to the then Labor government was calling for. make many points in regard to the issues you Just two weeks ago he was calling for direct have raised. I look forward with interest to government involvement—exactly the oppos- what Senator Murray has to say because, ite what you wanted. Calling for direct having been involved with him on a number government involvement, he said: of industry inquiries, I know his position on a number of issues. It will be interesting to I think that if you look at a number of the pro- grams that Labor put in place— see what his reaction is to the sort of thing that has happened in the case of DuPont he was talking about the MTIA report— where decisions were taken by the previous this report (MTIA) says that many of them were government—where agreements were made very effective. and still did not work because this company What we’ve got to have a suite of potential pro- has now decided that it will move offshore grams which have identified the barriers, having and 160 employees will lose their jobs. got a commitment from industry that if they get the assistance they will invest, they will create jobs, I read with interest this motion that we are they expand exports—it’s that commitment from debating today and I go back to where I them that really has to be the driving force to started. In moving this motion, Senator Cook qualify for any assistance. talked about the 100,000 Australian textile, DuPont got that assistance from this govern- clothing and footwear workers whose jobs ment from 1990 onwards. What have they must be secured. I remind him that he is now done? They have turned their backs on that changing direction on the issue of tariffs, high assistance, gone back on the agreement and protection, quotas and all of those other issues decided that they are going to move offshore. which he tackled—quite fairly and harshly— when in government. Senator Cook, how Senator Cook, you and your shadow indus- many jobs were lost during your term in try spokesman, Simon Crean, have the gall to government—and here you are now talking suggest that it is this government that is about potential job losses in the industry? responsible for the loss of those 160 jobs at DuPont. Mr Crean has had a few other things You say that Australia is well ahead of its to say, which I think are worth quoting. Of international competitors in the reduction of Labor’s policy, he said: tariffs in this industry. Why did you not say No one understands better than Labor how that the that 18 months ago? If we are so far ahead tariff war has been fought and won. After all it was today, we must have been ahead 18 months Labor that fought and won it. ago. If that was the situation you should have You fought it and started to win it, and now made it quite clear then. you are trying to abandon it. He said: I urge people to oppose this motion, partly Labor is not proposing to restore the high tariffs because I think that the motion is ill con- barriers of the past or keep them at existing levels ceived—because of a lack of enthusiasm by indefinitely. Senator Cook for this motion. Although he Instead we are seeking firm commitments from the moved the motion, it goes completely against textile, clothing and footwear industries on jobs, all the conditions that were put in place by new investment and increased exports. the previous government. They have done an 5964 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 enormous backflip on this issue. For that they changed car policy it was votes and reason, and for many others which will be elections they were worried about, not people explained by my colleagues when they speak and their lives. It was the coalition which to this motion, I urge senators to vote against when they were in opposition wholeheartedly it. supported Labor’s destructive unilateral tariff Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) policies and cheered them on from the side- (3.58 p.m.)—I seek leave to move an amend- lines. ment to the motion, which I have circulated. What did the Labor government, with Leave granted. coalition support, do for the TCF industries Senator MURRAY—I move: and employees? It is thanks to the Labor Omit paragraph (d), substitute: Party that tariff reductions in the TCF indus- tries are legislated until the year 2000. Surely, (d) there should be a freeze on TCF tariff reduc- tions, effective immediately; it is obvious that certainty of that kind needs to be tempered by an ability to adjust to Senator Ferguson was quite right: my party competition and competitors. Unilateral is just and I do have a long, consistent record of not smart. I have found it very difficult to differing with the major parties on this issue. understand why anyone should have legislated I welcome this motion by the Labor Party us into a bind where we are forced to reduce concerning the TCF tariff cuts. I warmly tariffs on this basis. Tariffs in the TCF indus- welcome Labor’s much improved tariff tries are currently at a maximum rate of 34 policy. I only hope that they improve it a lot per cent, but they are multiple rates, depend- more. I can only say that the Labor Party are ing on the particular product, and some are the latter-day saints of tariff reductions. They much lower. By the year 2000 they will be at seem to have suddenly discovered that unilat- a maximum rate of 25 per cent generally, but eral tariff reductions mean job losses. others will be lower. Tariffs in the TCF The Australian Democrats’ position has industries are currently falling at a rate of always been that tariff cuts must be measured three per cent a year. By the year 2000, as I against our competitors. For a decade and a said, they will be 25 per cent, on average. half of Labor government it was the Austral- These reductions are set to take place irre- ian Democrats alone who strongly opposed spective of what our trading partners do and the unilateral cuts in tariffs and quotas pur- irrespective of their impact on employment sued and implemented by Labor, all of them and investment in Australia. It really was a fully supported by the coalition. There is no stupid law. inconsistency in the coalition’s position. Labor is changing, and we are delighted to Labor says it is okay to cut unilaterally see it. Senator Cook was quite right in saying until 2000, but not after that. Why? Either it that the government adopted Labor’s position is right to cut unilaterally or it is not right to on the car industry. The Australian cut unilaterally. I am always surprised, when Democrats’ position was for a freeze now. faced with the intelligence of people such as Senator Cook and Simon Crean—extremely In fact the coalition has always followed capable people—why they cannot understand Labor on tariff policy. The coalition cannot that to choose a date and to say that it is okay escape the blame either. They are all now to be unilateral up to that date, but after that cheering about how they halted tariff cuts in it is suddenly wrong, does strike people as a the car industry, what a good decision they very strange approach. made and how clever they have been in completely ignoring the Productivity Commis- The coalition are right to be cross with their sion on that matter. When I listened to Sena- old tariff buddies, Labor. If a Labor govern- tor Alston today gloating when 17,000 more ment reduces tariffs somehow magically, our job losses are expected in the Public Service, industries and jobs are going to be immune. I was reminded of what a cold, hard-hearted, But now that we have a coalition government money-mad cabinet he is a member of. When which reduces tariffs, then devastation is Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5965 threatened. Our view is that devastation was competitors will go up; sometimes they will always threatened under either party. go down. But it should be relative to your I want to remind the Labor Party that it market position, domestically and internation- does not matter which party pursues unilateral ally. It is just not good enough in terms of tariff cuts, the outcome is the same, and that your current policy. If you are serious about you must stop unilateral tariff cuts now. The protecting jobs, then tariffs should be frozen outcome is bad for Australia. The TCF indus- at current levels and there should be no tries directly employ up to 100,000 people reductions in TCF tariffs unless reciprocal and a further equivalent number of outwork- reductions are forthcoming from our major ers. Hundreds of thousands of other employ- trading partners. ees are indirectly affected. You will recall that Tariff cuts pursued by Labor went far when 2,000 employees were advised that their beyond our obligations under the World Trade services were to be terminated at BHP, 8,000 Organisation. Moreover, they were undertaken additional employees were affected. This without similar measures by our trading affects far more Australians than just the partners who have continued to protect their 100,000 conventionally spoken about. industries by tariff and non-tariff barriers. Unfortunately, the Liberal, Labor and They must be saying out there in the wide National parties are fundamentally opposed to world, ‘Wow! Those Aussies are really nice halting or even reviewing the TCF tariff cuts, people, but they are pretty dumb.’ How can which have been set in place until the year we be so dumb as to give away our competi- 2000. They are only open to negotiate tariffs tive advantage in that way? after the year 2000, and by then it may These Labor policies, supported by the already be too late. Why is it too late? Be- coalition, have placed Australian manufactur- cause the industries and the companies are ers and workers at a disadvantage to overseas closing now. The jobs are being lost now— firms operating with strong tariff and non- not in the year 2000, now. Berlei has an- tariff assistance, and which have significantly nounced that it is going offshore and that is lower labour, environmental and occupational a disaster for the workers and people of health and safety standards. These economic Lithgow. But Berlei has made its announce- rationalist policies were responsible for ment now. It has announced it under a regime flooding Australia with cheap imports, for of tariff reductions passed and implemented decimating Australian industry, for countless by Labor with the support of the coalition. job losses, and for huge national debt increas- The same goes for the decisions to close es. They were bad policies. manufacturing plants by Gloweave and Both of Australia’s major parties seem to DuPont now, not in 2000. Those closures are again agree that tariffs can be reduced on a happening now under the regime of unilateral quid pro quo basis. That is the new accord, tariff reductions implemented by Labor. the new pact, between them on this matter. If Labor is serious about revisiting its Yet unilateral tariff reductions are still legis- stance on tariffs, if it has learnt from the lated until the year 2000 for two major indus- lessons of the past, then why not review the tries directly employing tens of thousands of unilateral reductions in tariffs that are set to Australians. That is when we have eight per occur until the year 2000? Why won’t you cent recorded unemployment—I am one of call for a freeze on tariff cuts now? Where is those who thinks it is far higher—and grow- the intellectual, empirical or sensible econom- ing long-term unemployment. ic justification for picking the year 2000? It The rate of tariff assistance for the car makes no sense to me. industry is set to fall from the present 22½ Labor says tariffs should be frozen at year per cent to 15 per cent. The maximum rate of 2000 levels, at least until the year 2005. Now assistance for the textile, clothing and foot- they are picking another year. Why? Why not wear industries is set to fall from 34 per cent adopt a policy that you evaluate what your to 25 per cent. The general rate of assistance competitors are doing? Sometimes your for most other industries is currently set at 5966 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 five per cent. In many other instances, this is government; they are not being produced by significantly lower compared to that of our this government. This is a government which major trading partners. Why the National said that they do not even need cost-benefit Party allowed their own constituency to be analysis—the very thing that Mortimer says thumped with the tariff decreases in that that you do need. We have to have compara- sector is beyond us. tive reports. The future of tariff rates beyond the year Senator WEST (New South Wales) (4.10 2000 for the textile, clothing and footwear p.m.)—It is with a great deal of sorrow that industries is to be decided by the parliament I find myself joining in this debate, because later this year. The ideologically blinkered I think we are already seeing the results of the Productivity Commission—known as the old Industry Commission’s report. The subliminal ‘Industry Assassination Commission’—has messages being sent to the TCF industries by recommended they fall to five per cent by this report—the lack of action by the govern- 2005. They want to sign their death warrant. ment in making comment upon this report— This recommendation has to be ignored. I are not saying that the TCF industries are project that it will be ignored, but we must go major industries and major contributors to the further. wellbeing of this country. The program tariff cuts in both the TCF and These industries have seen the furore that car industries from December 1996 to the the car industry and the car components year 2000 would have cost us $2 billion in industry had to undertake to pressure the lost revenue. Tariffs are taxes. They are no government into rejecting a number of the different in the tax regime than any other tax very hard line, cold economic rationalist that we have. When you cut them, you lose views of the Industry Commission in relation revenue. This saving of $2 billion should be to the car industry. It was only after a lot of ploughed into industrial development pro- very heavy lobbying by very senior people, grams targeted at generating jobs and export including senior supporters within the Liberal opportunities. Party, that we saw that Industry Commission The government has been engaged in trade report not agreed to and a more sensible liberalisation negotiations and should continue approach taken—the recognition that that is to do so. However, further trade reductions an important industry to this country. must only occur if reciprocal trade liberali- I guess the textile, clothing and footwear sations are pursued by our major trading industries are saying, ‘Oh, dear, not again. Do partners. Australia must no longer proceed we have to go through it?’ This Industry with tariff reductions further than what is Commission report is sending bad signals to required in the multilateral agreements unless the industry but what is sending even worse our trading partners do likewise and also signals is the government’s do nothing atti- address the use of non-tariff barriers. So- tude. It is like everything else this government called unilateral disarmament must cease does—it does nothing. It just lets it slide immediately, not just after the year 2000, as along. They do not do anything to correct the the ALP and coalition are advocating. mistruths and the misinformation that are The government should produce compara- appearing in the Asian press about one mem- tive reports on tariff and non-tariff barriers ber for Oxley. The Prime Minister does between Australia and our major trading nothing to dispel those sorts of inaccuracies partners. It should ensure these are prepared or to rebut them. Again, you see this with the on an annual basis as a service to the com- TCF industries report—nothing has been done munity and as a source of information for to rebut it. It has been left to the industry to policy formulation, because you cannot have to conduct a very serious and large evaluate the effect of tariffs and non-tariff campaign. barriers on a particular industry unless you The closure of Berlei in Lithgow has been produce those comparative reports. They were announced. What the people of Lithgow are not produced by Labor in the previous very concerned about is that when 2,000 jobs Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5967 were lost in Newcastle as a result of the steel to battle hard to try to get the government to industry changes that BHP has made the have some sort of an industry plan. As I have federal government came forward with a said, we have already seen the car industry rescue package, an assistance package, to the have to do it. We are seeing the TCF indus- area. Lithgow council and a number of other tries having to do it. We are seeing the gold organisations that they are linked with have industry having to struggle and suffer because been asking to be considered also for a rescue the government just decided to sell off a lot package. The loss of 184 jobs in a population of our gold reserves and sent the wrong area of less than 20,000 is of significant messages to those markets and to our gold- importance to this community; that is a mines. significant number of people. The TCF industries have been able to work We know from the Textile Fashion Industry with the careful and negotiated reductions in Association that research studies show that tariffs that have taken place. They knew what only one in five retrenched TCF workers gain the conditions were up until 18 months ago, employment in another industry within four and they certainly knew up until the Industry years of losing a job and only 50 per cent Commission report. They had some idea of find any work. Those figures are taken across what the future planning was and of what the the country and include capital city areas future regimes were. They were able to work where the job opportunities for people are within those parameters. much more significant. When you come to It is interesting to receive letters from rural and regional areas there are not a great people within the industry. I received a letter deal of alternative job opportunities available. that states: This government is not offering to do any- thing, to introduce any training programs or The decision to change tariffs before the industry any rescue packages. It is of major concern. can prepare for further reductions will cause This shows a lack of concern and a lack of companies like ours— caring on the part of this government towards and this is a small to medium family owned this industry, and it is an important industry enterprise— to the community. to retract in volume and size, downsize and contri- The Labor Party’s policy is very clear: bute to the already high unemployment and social freeze tariffs from 2000 to 2005 and, before problems. Our protection levels for this industry are lower than many of our trading partners, particular- you reintroduce any reductions after 2005, ly in South-East Asian markets, and a further have a review to see what our competitors are reduction will increase the movement of more doing. It is all very well for this government Australian firms offshore. The government preaches to want to go on hairy chested and say, ‘Yes, that small to medium family businesses are the we’ll keep reducing tariffs. It’s important to backbone of Australia, but the changes to the TCF keep reducing tariffs.’ But, if the rest of the industry will only advance the entry of multination- world is not keeping pace or not doing what als. they have made their agreements to do and They are very convinced that the government showing no signs of undertaking agreements is not concerned at all about family busines- they might have already made under the ses and family enterprises. World Trade Organisation and GATT agree- When we talk about TCF, I think it is ments, we run the risk of being left out there important to recognise the importance of these like a lonely little shag on a rock seeing the to the rural and regional areas of Australia. In demise of this industry. New South Wales, 1,000 people are employed If this government had an industry policy, in the industries. In regional New South the industry itself would be able to plan and Wales, over 7,500 people are employed in the know what its future was and have some idea TCF industries. In regional Victoria, it is of what the parameters are that it is working 7,700 people. That is 15,000 people employed within. This government has no industry in these industries in regional New South policy. This is another industry that is having Wales and Victoria. These regional areas 5968 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 cannot afford to suffer these cuts to their job "We would have to evaluate our viability," Mr opportunities. Penniceard said. It is very fortuitous that I have a copy of "We can see ourselves surviving, but we’d certainly survive if they freeze tariffs." the front page of the Western Advocate, the newspaper that is published in Bathurst. However the temptation to move overseas will "be at its peak" by 2000 if the government does not Bathurst also has a TCF industry in J. Robin freeze tariffs. and Sons shoes. I would like to quote from "We want to pursue manufacturing in Australia, this article by Sheena Frost from page 1 of and pursue best practice standards, increasing our the Western Advocate. She says: productivity, improving our technology and take all Shoe manufacturer J. Robin and Sons could take the necessary steps to remain manufacturing in its operations off shore if the Federal Government Australia." does not freeze textile and footwear industry tariffs But, obviously—to quote this particular from 2000. gentleman who is in the industry—they Manager of the Bathurst factory which employs cannot do it if the government goes ahead 40 people, Chris Penniceard, said the company— with the Industry Commission recommenda- the largest Australian owned shoe manufacturer—is planning for the worst, following recommendations tions or if the Industry Commission does not by the Industry Commission that tariffs be reduced alter its recommendations. to between zero and five per cent by 2010. This is of major concern. As I said, this Earlier on I said the Industry Commission company injects a $1.1 million wage packet report was sending the wrong messages and into the community each year. Forty jobs will the government was doing nothing about it. be gone. Communities in rural and regional Here we have a manager of one of J. Robin areas of Australia cannot stand those sorts of shoe manufacturing factories saying that they losses. What does that $1.1 million get spent are working on the worst case scenario. They on? It does not just go to those people; it gets are working on that because they obviously spread around the community. It affects cannot trust the government. He then went on everybody in the community. If you take out to say: an income level of $1.1 million, you must . . . there was no guarantee the company would have an impact upon those regional and rural stay in Australia if the government adopted this communities, but the government does not recommendation. seem to understand that. The Bathurst factory injects $1.1 million into the It also does not seem to understand that the local economy in wages alone, and produces around industries have worked very well, as this 200,000 pairs of shoes a year. It is the only one of gentleman has said, with the programs that four factories located outside a capital city. have happened to date and can cope until the So three other locations in this country are year 2000. But it is the year 2000, the year having similar sorts of injections of funds and that the Industry Commission report recom- finances into their economy because of the mendations start to take effect, that they have fact that Robins are there. He continues: the problems with—the uncertainty, the rapid "We’re aware of the need to reduce tariffs, and reduction in tariffs and things like that. It is agree to the overall principle, but the stage of of major concern, and it would well do these reduction would far exceed our expectation for our government members to think very clearly productivity gains," he said. about this because they are important indus- Mr Penniceard said the company was calling for tries. a five-year freeze on tariffs from 2000, allowing the local industry to remain competitive. If this government had an industry policy, we would not need to debate here sector by "By freezing tariffs for five years and then reassessing them, this would allow us to achieve sector each industry sector. They would long term efficiency gains and take advantage of actually be able to understand and know important technology innovations through cost where they come from. But this is a govern- reductions." ment that has actually attacked the rural areas. If this does not eventuate, the company will have We have seen Medicare offices under threat, to reassess its position. and we have reversed that. In recent times we Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5969 have seen AQIS inspection charges for meat undertaken. I have a great deal of pleasure in exports rise. We have seen people laid off by supporting Senator Cook’s motion. that. Senator CHAPMAN (South Australia) We have had abattoirs say they cannot cope (4.26 p.m.)—In 1994, a senator in this place with anything up to a 300 per cent increase in said in relation to industry policy, ‘I must inspection fees. We have seen losses of tax repeat, however, what my predecessors have offices in country areas. We are seeing reduc- said: the era of the handout mentality is tions in FIS officers to the Department of dead.’ Social Security. We are seeing reductions in Senator McGauran—Who was that? ABC services. We have seen all these sorts of Senator CHAPMAN—Indeed, who was things and now we run the risk of seeing that, Senator McGauran? It was none other losses in our textiles, clothing and footwear than Senator Cook, the purveyor of this industries. general business motion today. Senator Cook This also goes in conjunction with the fact was, of course, then a minister in the previous that the government have removed, destroyed, government. He is the very man who is today done away with, the department of regional trying to push the exact opposite with this development at a federal level. They say there motion—Labor’s hypocritical U-turn on is no constitutional need for them to be industry policy. involved in this sort of endeavour. I would In direct contrast to Senator Cook and his put it to the Senate that it is of vital import- Labor Party colleagues, the government is ance that we have an understanding at a mindful of the concerns of the textiles, cloth- federal level and an international level of the ing and footwear industries. Just yesterday, importance of regional development to this the Prime Minister (Mr Howard) assured country, of its significance and of the need for workers in the textiles, clothing and footwear the federal government to maintain that. industries that the government has taken their One of the groups that Berlei has given concerns on board. He said only yesterday, great praise to has been the New South Wales referring to the Productivity Commission department of regional development. Why inquiry on the textiles, clothing and footwear was the federal department not in there industries: helping them as well? This textiles, clothing When the Government receives the final report, it and footwear issue is very important. They will take a speedy decision as it did with the motor manufacturing industry. And in taking that decision, are very important industries to this country— it will certainly pay very strong regard to the 100,000 jobs. They cannot be sneezed at, interest of employees in that industry. cannot be dismissed and we cannot send the wrong signals to the industries. The industries The Prime Minister went on to say: have to have some certainty. While this I regard the closure of factories like Berlei as being government thrashes around uncertain as to not only a tragedy for the city of Lithgow but a what the future will be, it will be sending the tragedy for the region. wrong messages. It will not be encouraging We ought to remember that Berlei’s decision investment in industries that are of vital to move their manufacturing offshore, affect- importance. ing over 200 jobs in Lithgow, was made under Labor’s policy prescription. Likewise, By freezing the tariffs to the year 2005, the DuPont’s decision to slash 160 jobs at its industries will have some certainty by their Bayswater plant in Victoria was made under understanding that the review will be taking Labor’s tariff policy regime. place in the year 2004. They will understand what they need to be looking for and what Senator Cook—You’re in government. sorts of issues will be included in the review, Take responsibility. and Senator Cook’s motion certainly outlines Senator CHAPMAN—Senator Cook three of the important points that should be interjects that we are in government, but he taken into consideration when that review is does not tell the Senate that this tariff policy 5970 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 was laid down by the previous government to They are not operating under anyone else’s go through to the year 2000. Just remember rules; they are not operating under the Pro- that, Senator Cook. This is a policy regime ductivity Commission’s interim report recom- that was laid down by your government to the mendations; they are not operating under year 2000. It is under that policy that these Howard government initiated tariff structures. closures are occurring, not under any policy They are operating under Labor’s continuing of the present government. regime. The industries, and most importantly We also ought to remember that DuPont their employees, have nothing to fear from the accepted some $59 million as an up-front Howard government. payment from the then Labor government’s DuPont, a foreign company which has been capitalisation grants program whereby DuPont given so much by the previous government, agreed that it would buy and operate its owes it to the Australian people and especial- Fibremakers synthetic fibre making business ly to its employees to wait for the govern- without tariff protection or bounties. The up- ment’s decision on the textiles, clothing and front payment was direct assistance provided footwear industries, rather than rushing to instead of tariffs to help finance new invest- close its Bayswater plant, using the current ment to make the plant internationally com- debate as an excuse. The Productivity Com- petitive. It ran for five years plus two one- mission’s final report on the textiles, clothing year extensions. and footwear industries is due on 9 Septem- DuPont’s Chief Executive Officer, John ber. Then and only then will the government Foote, admits that the ‘best endeavours’ consider the final recommendations of that objective of the contract has not been met. So report before making a decision. DuPont, like this opposition, is being quite In contrast, it is clear that Senator Cook in disingenuous in blaming the current consider- particular and the Labor Party in general have ation of future tariff policy for the cutback in learnt nothing from being unceremoniously operations and consequent job losses in the dumped by the people of Australia some 18 textiles, clothing and footwear industries. months ago. Does Labor seriously expect What DuPont’s decision does show is that people to swallow more of its scare monger- massive subsidies given at the expense of ing through the lies being perpetrated on this others in the community do not protect jobs. issue? Senator Cook, Simon Crean and the The only way to protect jobs is to ensure that rest of Labor are completely without credibili- our industries achieve world best practice in ty with regard to policy on the textiles, their operations, become internationally clothing and footwear industries. They pur- competitive and adopt an aggressive export sued one policy in government when they at mentality. That is why, unlike Labor’s knee- least had some responsibility and accounta- jerk, U-turn reaction to the industries’ diffi- bility for their approach. Now, out of govern- culties, which arose under the rules that were ment and unlikely to return for many years, established by the previous Labor govern- they take a purely populist approach, which ment, the Howard government will give is a complete U-turn on their previous posi- careful consideration to all of the factors tion when in government, safely knowing they relevant to a decision on future protection will never have to implement it because the arrangements for the industries and make a good sense of the Australian people will keep balanced decision. them out of office for many years. So let me make it plain once again, for Labor failed Australia’s textiles, clothing Senator Cook’s benefit. and footwear industries. They failed the industries’ work force; they failed the Senator Cook—Don’t bother. industries’ export objectives. In particular, Senator CHAPMAN—He does not seem that was evident when, between 1988 and to understand. The industries, including 1994 under Labor, factory employment fell by DuPont, are currently operating under rules 32 per cent; overall employment fell by 20 laid down by the previous Labor government. per cent; and, manufacturing output fell by 24 Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5971 per cent. Labor’s policies failed because they considered by the government before making did nothing to secure export markets for its decision. We are committed to consulting Australian firms. Between 1990 and 1996 the widely with the industries and others involved trade deficit in textiles, clothing and footwear in the future of the industries, including trade goods increased by almost $400 million. unions and state governments. The govern- Labor’s policies failed because they did not ment regards the retention of strong and prepare Australian industry for the challenges internationally competitive textiles, clothing of the tariff reductions which they had initiat- and footwear industries as being extremely ed. important. It is the government’s intention to No amount of crocodile tears today can encourage the development and growth of rewrite Labor’s appalling record. Senator these industries, unlike the failed policies of Cook’s remarks on this issue are therefore the Labor Party, which have seen these completely without credibility. Nothing can industries shrink and decline. reverse the fact that it is Labor Party policies The Howard government is committed to which have overseen the tragic closures at ensuring that policies are implemented which Berlei and DuPont and countless other facto- will ensure these industries can reach their ries in earlier years. It was the Labor Party’s full potential. We are also committed to neglect of important micro-economic reforms ensuring that the industries are in a much which contributed to the fall in competitive- more competitive position by the year 2010, ness of Australian industry and which made when the APEC region moves to free trade, it so extremely difficult for firms to compete and to ensuring that the transition to 2010 is in an environment of tariff reductions. properly managed and does not place Austral- Let there be absolutely no mistake on this ian companies at a disadvantage. That is a issue: it was the Labor Party which was direct contrast with the way in which the detrimental to these industries; it was the Labor Party operated in government which, as Labor Party which increased taxes; it was the I said before, was to put in place its tariff Labor Party which introduced the unworkable reduction strategy without in any way creating Brereton unfair dismissal laws; it was the the overall economic environment whereby Labor Party which allowed business invest- the industries could cope with those tariff ment to decline to its lowest level on record; reductions. and, it was the Labor Party which failed to Senator Cook—Are you really such an ensure that Australian companies had access idiot? to rapidly expanding Asian markets. It is the Senator CHAPMAN—Senator Cook, I Labor Party which, as I have already said, is have already been through your complete responsible for the textiles, clothing and policy failure in this regard—your failure to footwear policies which are in place today. push ahead with micro-economic reform, with In contrast to that, the government will be labour market reform, and all of the related taking into account the responsibilities which reforms which were absolutely essential if it has to everybody concerned with regard to industries were to be capable of not just this policy decision, including employees, and surviving but expanding under a regime of will be giving full consideration to the tariff reductions. industries’ submissions. The decision, which We are also mindful that the industries will as I said will be taken after the final report of not benefit from uncertainty. That is why we the Productivity Commission is presented to will be allowing the industries to make their the government, will be fully consistent with post year 2000 business and investment plans our policy objectives, which are: first, to in a predictable policy context. Of course, this secure investment; secondly, to encourage is in direct contrast to the opposition, which exports; and, thirdly, to create jobs. believes that the only way to gain credibility The report of the Industry Commission—or on this issue is to perform a backflip, to the Productivity Commission, as it is now undertake a policy U-turn, to which I referred known—will be only one of the factors earlier in my remarks. What they do not seem 5972 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 to realise is that that absolutely destroys their in the textiles, clothing and footwear indus- credibility; it does not restore it. A U-turn of tries. It was done in my office for the work that magnitude completely destroys their that I was doing in the Senate, and it was credibility. tabled in the Senate. The textiles, clothing and footwear indus- I would like to say that it is very useful to tries make an important contribution to the look back now at the issues that were identi- development of Australian manufacturing. fied at that time. They included the fact that, They employ over 100,000 people, many of during the time that former Senator Button them in small to medium sized businesses, was working with the car industry, he was and some of those in regional locations. In also working with the textiles, clothing and 1996, these industries provided some nine per footwear industries, but his way of operation cent of manufacturing employment. The with both those industries was different. It is industries have a significant impact on the hard to understand exactly why, considering Australian economy. In 1994-95, the textiles, the numbers of jobs involved and the import- clothing and footwear manufacturing turnover ance of the industries. exceeded some $9.5 billion, representing five Senator Chapman has pointed out how per cent of manufacturing gross domestic important the industries are in many ways product. The industries are also major export- employment-wise and in terms of the actual ers. In 1995-96, they exported $2.7 billion level of the economy. But they are also worth of goods, which is greater than the obviously very important in terms of the fact exports of the automotive industry at $2.2 that one would think it would be good for a billion, and the computers and office machi- country like Australia to be able to produce nery industry at $1.9 billion. its basic food, clothing and shelter; not an Let me conclude by reiterating the fact that unreasonable assumption, considering the the Howard government has put in place a distances involved between us and the rest of comprehensive process to review the post year the world. 2000 arrangements for the textiles, clothing In the days when Senator Button was and footwear industries. The opposition fear working with industry to reduce tariffs, campaign is nothing more than a cheap agreements were reached between government attempt to divert attention away from their and the car industry on tariff reductions. own policy failures during 13 years of There were also protracted agreements be- government. This motion put forward as a tween the government and the textile, clothing general business notice of motion today by and footwear industries. But there was a Senator Cook and his colleagues simply difference: the difference was that although reinforces the fact that they are engaged in a the government respected the agreement scaremongering exercise and a further attempt between itself and the car industry, not once to divert attention away from their own failed but twice they totally ignored the outcome of policies. It is no good now, Senator Cook, those protracted discussions and recommenda- shedding crocodile tears. tions from the IAC and reduced the tariffs Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) further. (4.39 p.m.)—I rise today to speak on the The original agreement was to have an in- motion in relation to the textiles, clothing and built system to assess whether or not the footwear industries. The TCF crisis is certain- policies were meeting their goals. You would ly important, but it is not a new problem. I think that was a reasonable thing to do. If have highlighted the situation during virtually what we are trying to do is bring about a the whole of my term. For a more detailed certain level of efficiency in such a way as consideration of the issue I would like to not to damage the industry too much at one commend the work of Elizabeth Peak, who time, we would have a method of looking worked for me as a parliamentary intern in back to see if we were achieving those goals. 1994. She produced a very good report called But, as I say, not once but twice this agree- The ignorance of implications: policy making ment was reneged on. Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5973

I come back to the point when I came into the media. I noticed the other day that one the parliament. Honourable senators who were report of the closure of the Berlei factory here at the time may remember that I asked talked about 200 pay packets, not 200 jobs— a number of questions of Senator Cook, who not the human impact of people losing their was then Minister for Trade. The questions jobs, but 200 pay packets. Women are still related to the level of tariff reductions, wheth- not real people out there in the world of jobs. er or not the government was cognisant of I think that has something to do with the fact their impact, and their relationship to that the industries have been treated different- Australia’s signing of the Uruguay Round of ly over time from the way the car industry, GATT. If anybody remembers, at the time the mining industry and other industries have Senator Cook clearly denied that the reduc- been treated when job questions were con- tions were anything to do with the Uruguay sidered. Round of GATT and that the subsequent The textile, clothing and footwear industries major job losses in the industry had anything are generally industries where, in developing to do with the Uruguay Round of GATT countries, worker exploitation is particularly because, as he pointed out, they were volun- rife. Cases such as a fire in an overcrowded tary; they were as a result of a policy decision Thai factory without proper fire escapes, or by this government, taken before anything building collapses are not uncommon. There was required under the Uruguay Round of have been cases where women and children GATT. could not get out of the factories; they were Somebody might say that this could have virtually entombed in those factories. Use of been considered to be a naive approach. In bonded and child labour and wage levels well hindsight, of course, it was a naive approach. below minimum wages, even where minimum In the rest of the world, along with the nego- wages are $1 a day, are also strongly present tiations for the Uruguay Round of GATT— in foreign textile, clothing and footwear which, of course, is now the World Trade industries. Organisation—there were many great words. Children and women are frequently fa- But they have at least left themselves the voured for such work because of high manual leeway since the signing and the implementa- dexterity and delicacy, and good eyesight. tion of the Uruguay Round of GATT to make Under typical factory conditions of long the adjustments which were then required hours, poor lighting and bad diet, eyesight under the Uruguay Round of GATT. goes quickly. Stories appear regularly of Australia did not do that. We actually scams where poor, isolated women workers or pushed the textile, clothing and footwear young children are lured with promises of industries in particular further than they were jobs—so they come from rural areas and then initially happy and comfortable to go. We left obviously become very dependent—only to them in a situation where, under the Uruguay find themselves imprisoned in factories and Round of GATT and the World Trade Organi- made to work without pay. sation, they were required to go further. We The need to compete with massive exploit- are getting bleats from other parts of the ation has led less scrupulous manufacturers world—where tariffs levels are greater than here to institute as much exploitation as the ours—saying that we should be doing more labour market will bear. Exploitative work to reduce our current levels. That was not practices include: piecework production, particularly bright of Australia at the time. requiring workers to have their own equip- The question remains: why were the textile, ment and work from home; and common use clothing and footwear industries treated so of migrant and marginalised group labour at differently from the way the car industry was less than the effective minimum wage. treated? Some people would choose to work at Perhaps the answer, if I was cynical, relates home; other people find that the exploitation to the current treatment of the textile, clothing of the piecework makes it worse than working and footwear industries by some sections of in a factory because it is harder for anybody 5974 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 to check that, whether they are unions or might have been—it might cost $1 to produce other industry inspectors. There, they are them—when manufacture shifted from the US often paid by the hour or by the piece, so in to Indonesia and other low wage countries, fact the exploitation is set by the piece rate the prices of such goods did not come down rather than by anything else. markedly. Nike and similar type shoes are Levels of tariffs and other industry protec- still expensive. So the distribution is where tion and promotion moves are common the money is made. Therefore, we cannot say overseas. Most nations recognise that clothing that there are benefits passed on either to the is a necessity which will be imported on a workers, necessarily, or to the consumers. massive scale if domestic industry is not Another result has been that diversity has healthy. If you look, for instance, at the trade often decreased. Think about it: globally, figures between Australia and China, you will there are few very inexpensive sources. All find that, about a year ago, they were worth importers know who they are and that the best roughly $3 billion each. The difference is that profit margin is likely to be on these goods. Australia is producing massive amounts of As a consequence, such goods proliferate and lower value, high volume goods and Australia drive the vast diversity of goods manufactured is importing mainly fairly high value added by national, regional and local small and goods, such as footwear, clothing and textiles, medium scale producers out of the market. tools and other manufactured goods. Not entirely out of the market—some small Nevertheless, various competitive pressures businesses may stock them. But large distribu- result in even more drastic exploitation as tors, department stores and retail chains will nations like Thailand use even cheaper Viet- generally have what is effectively a very namese labour and re-label goods as ‘Thai’ to similar small range of goods. circumvent trade barriers. At the same time, These days, because they are being pushed low Vietnamese labour costs were used to to be internationally competitive or even suppress an increased minimum wage push by locally competitive, they only stock those Thai workers. goods which they think they will move most The beneficiaries of this push are rarely quickly. So the range of goods, for a number workers, or even manufacturers. Distributors of reasons, as part of our jump into free trade, and large retailers decide what goods to has reduced, in my opinion. import and do so en masse. Their decisions Even if all tariff barriers were gone, we are based on which products are least expen- have a situation of disequilibrium between the sive. Retail price, or prices to small domestic mobility of capital and the mobility of labour. retailers, are established on the basis of profit So the advantage for the owners of capital is maximisation. A result is that lower manufac- that they can move from place to place. They turing costs through lower wages do not can raffle down, bid down, the prices for necessarily translate into lower retail price. labour from one country to another, just as There was an assumption that the interna- they bid down the environmental conditions tional free market would bring a lot of such from place to place. Wages and conditions are benefits to the consumer, but we need to look being raffled down to the lowest common seriously at what exactly were the benefits to denominator. consumers in Australia. As I said, retail price, The translation of that is that capital can or prices to small domestic retailers, are invest wherever it makes the most money, but established on the basis of profit maximi- workers are less able to go where they make sation. A result is that lower manufacturing the most money. This means that human costs through lower wages do not necessarily beings have needs but there is no reason for translate into lower retail price. They do not anyone to employ them, unless more money benefit either workers or consumers. can be made by employing someone else. So This is most apparent in things like designer they are more vulnerable. running shoes—Nike and so on. Though the There is some sort of fantasy that if TCF cost dropped to a small fraction of what it jobs go, it will create a vacuum that will be Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5975 filled by very high value intellectual and other replace the things they now do for us. Failure service work. This has not worked. The to do this will virtually ensure a negative evidence is that skilled manufacturing work- balance of trade. They also maintain a large ers, when made redundant, move down the number of direct subsidies such that clothing ladder of skills. They do work with less value from China is essentially produced below added. Not only that, imports of value added cost. goods increase. We have swallowed intellectual poison by The truth is that not everyone is intellec- accepting a purist version of free trade. Other tually or emotionally suited to be a manager, nations argue such a line, but they do so a researcher, a computer programmer or a when it is to their advantage. Their practice provider of legal and financial services. might be quite different. The United States is Sacking people will not improve their pros- quite happy to bully Japan and to establish pects. On the other hand, a portion of people bilateral controlled trade agreements. The US will be suited to manufacturing work. They and the European Union are very happy to will like it and will be extremely good at it. use subsidies to act against our wheat and If employment is any kind of objective, it is beef markets. Their rhetoric on free trade is important to provide a diversity of work since usually impeccable. there a diversity of people. If we concentrate We have award winning textiles, clothing only on those industries where we believe we and footwear industries. They need to be have a competitive advantage we are actually supported and fostered, not simply allowed to doing ourselves a disservice in the long run. die in the interest of a counterproductive We continue to function in a very unequal ideology. We have the capacity to build such situation. Other nations have both high tariffs an industry with far less in the way of trade and strong policies to retain a diversity of barriers and subsidies than other nations have work, particularly in the production of high in place. We could improve our industry volume consumables. They also foster high assistance and still be world leaders in de- value added work. Is it not ironic that Aus- regulation. tralia believed that we should be naive en- Ultimately, there may be a case for genu- ough to reduce tariffs much more than was inely free trade, but before that occurs I think required in certain industries like the TCF there is a strong case for a managed trade industries on the basis that the rest of the regime. I would also say that free trade world would follow. requires a strong universal international The same thinking says that we cannot take regulatory regime. There is not one now. the lead and do the right thing to protect the What we have is a very undemocratic struc- environment through greenhouse gas reduc- ture. The World Trade Organisation is run by tions because we have to wait until everybody corporations, and that is not the same as free else does the right thing and we are not sure trade. In the meantime, there is considerable whether or not it is going to be a problem for scope to develop a strong, flexible industry the coal industry. Is it not ironic that in one policy in which the promotion of import area, the footwear, clothing and textiles replacement for major consumables and industries, we can leap in with both feet industry diversity have a central place. naively and yet we sit with our hands behind There are a number of positive environ- our backs when we need to take the lead in mental and social implications of such a relation to reducing greenhouse gas and regime. Firstly, it would vastly decrease creating employment through new opportuni- transport, dependency on exports and vulnera- ties in the energy efficiency and conservation bility to the global financial markets. It is areas. It is funny. truly a shame that in 1997 we have ships or China produces computers, computer com- even plane loads of the same goods going in ponents, TVs and various electronic audio different directions. That is not very bright. equipment. It has no lack of capacity for the Secondly, it would also allow sustainable things we say we want to move towards to management policies to be more effectively 5976 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 put into place. Thirdly, it would provide a confident that the case for the opposition has diverse job base. This is important in develop- been made thus far, and it is a most uncon- ing a robust economy. Without a strong set of vincing case. manufacturing skills we lose the capacity to The motion before the Senate has a certain develop much in the way of closely or hollowness about it because only yesterday serendipitously associated industries. For we were discussing an urgency motion example, skilled textile workers may shift to brought to us by that Women’s Weekly sena- something like costuming for our film support tor, Senator Stott Despoja. There was a much industry. Many spin-off possibilities, such as quoted Attorney-General’s discussion paper high employment and high value added small and it was said that the government should businesses, result from having a healthy pick up the recommendations in that paper. manufacturing sector such as the textiles, Today we have the debate that the govern- clothing and footwear industries. ment should not pick up the recommendations I am extremely pleased—no matter whether of the Industry Commission report. That is the it was brought forward by Senator Cook or hollowness of the opposition. someone else, although the irony is amaz- These reports or discussion papers are no ing—that we are having this debate. I am more than that; that is their status and that is very pleased that it is not just the Greens and where they stand. The government takes their the Democrats bringing this debate to the recommendations into consideration, but the Senate this time. I am very pleased that we cabinet makes the final decision. The govern- are beginning to talk about jobs in a real way ment makes the decision. So do not elevate and beginning to talk about the need for these reports, whether they are Industry industry policy and the future for these very Commission reports or discussion papers from important industries. departments, to give them any more import- This involves real people. Not only are they ance than they deserve. That is the hollowness in a very important employment sector; they of this debate. are in a very important strategic sector. The Senator Cook comes in here with his people who produce goods and services in motion urging us to reject the Industry Com- Australia are also the people who buy goods mission final report on the TCF industries, and services in Australia. They deserve which is yet to even come down. You can see support. They are not just wage packets; they the political capital that he is trying to make, are real people. They are part of regional as he did with the car industry issue. He got Australia. They are part of urban Australia. It a real shock when the government came down is time we started looking, in a more holistic with the decision to freeze tariffs. I did not way, to our future in urban and regional hear one speaker from the other side com- Australia, to produce a smarter Australia. I mend the government on its decision in think there is still time for us to get that right. regard to the car industry. We froze tariffs from the year 2000 to 2004. Senator McGAURAN (Victoria) (4.59 p.m.)—I believe no case has been made out That is the culture and thinking within the to support the motion moved by Senator Cook government at the moment. You would not which is now before the Senate. Given that think, listening to the previous speakers, that Senator Carr is the only other speaker from this government had made a decision to freeze the opposition to follow, you can rest assured tariffs in the car industry, yet it was the that there will be no case made out by the previous government that accelerated the opposition to support Senator Cook’s motion. reduction in tariffs. Quite frankly, they come You have the greatest Trotskyite known to the to this debate with absolutely no credibility at Senate following—Senator Carr. How could all. you possibility put Senator Carr on the speak- I should say that I happen to have, by ers list? How could you put a red rag up to coincidence only, the same quotes that my discuss industry policy? His idea would be to colleagues have used previously in relation to socialise all the TCF industries. I am pretty Senator Cook’s credibility on industry policy Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5977 and his calling for a freeze in tariffs. So allow member within the Labor opposition, has me to quote Senator Cook, as my colleagues warned his party not to go too far in these have. On 6 June, 1994 he said: tariff cuts. This is the inconsistency within the It was said that if tariff reform was attempted in opposition at the moment. Lindsay Tanner has these areas (transport sector, including manufac- said: tures of motor vehicles) both sectors would be There is a danger that Labor will allow tariffs to killed off entirely. Well, they have not been; they resume the unduly policy in the past. We cannot are flourishing... afford a return to the 1970’s. Only a day later he went on to say: So there is a man who does not want tariff If we had left the tariff wall intact the old poor cuts—more like tariff acceleration. He just quality, high-priced inefficient Australian vehicle happens to be in the same faction as the next would have been overwhelmed and we would have no car industry now. speaker, Senator Carr, so I will be interested to see where Senator Carr stands on accelerat- The point there is that Senator Cook, in those ed tariff cuts. Will he be like the member for days, had all the zeal of Roger Douglas. He Melbourne, factional member, or will he be had more zeal in his ministry than did the like Senator Cook in regard to tariff freezes? former Treasurer of New Zealand, Roger So the opposition has no credibility in this Douglas—and he is infamous for the zeal that debate. he brought to New Zealand with his economic rationalism. In those days, Senator Cook was I interjected on Senator West, but she did no different. He held the levers; he was the not take up the interjection, so allow me to minister. He had all the information before make my point now. The Labor Party intro- him, yet he spoke with great zeal of reducing duced in 1989 the TCF tariff reductions, but tariffs. in 1991—and we should remember the state Now Senator Cook comes in—and what a of the economy in 1991; it was a time of deep difference opposition makes—and calls for recession, high interest rates and high unem- tariff freezes. He does not come to this debate ployment—they decided to accelerate the TCF with any credibility at all; in fact, he comes tariff reductions that they had put in place in to this debate with opportunism and all the 1989. They could not have picked a worse cynicism he can muster. He is not alone. The time to change their policy midstream. That truth is that the Labor opposition are the tariff did more damage to the TCF industries—and cutters. The member for Hotham, Mr Crean, we are probably still seeing the effects—than gives weight to this claim. Mr Crean, a senior anything else that they could have done. That member of the opposition, said: is the inconsistency that we have in the opposition’s policy. No one understands better than Labor that the tariff war has been fought and won. After all it was We have heard also the false accusations Labor that fought and won it. today in regard to blaming this government, A better quote than that comes from 19 May which has been in office less than 18 months, 1990, when the member for Hotham said that for the factory closures of DuPont, Berlei and the only people who have adjusted tariff Gloweave which have taken their business levels have been members of the Labor overseas. Far from it being this government’s government. He said: policy, it probably had more to do with the The Whitlam Government between 1972 and previous government’s tariff regime which 1975 and this Government are the only ones who they accelerated in 1991, in the midst of a have reduced tariffs. There was a 25 per cent cut recession. So let us not forget the 1980s and under the Whitlam Government and there was a 35 the 1990s, the atmosphere and the economy per cent cut under this Government. Where was the that the TCF industries had to work under, cut from the opposition side?— with at the same time a reduced tariff regime. that was when we were in opposition— This government intends to react to the Not one cut in tariff at any stage. Industry Commission’s final report on the Now they are calling for tariff freezes. TCF industries in the same way as it did with Lindsay Tanner, another very prominent the Industry Commission report on the car 5978 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 industry. In that particular industry we recog- Altona plant with some expected 200 new nised that the Industry Commission’s report jobs. was but one source to cabinet. We would rely The point here is that the government is on many different sources. You will recall aware, better than the opposition, of the that we undertook very extensive industry environment needed to create investment and consultations and party room debate. More- employment in these very vulnerable indus- over, the government did not keep the car tries—vulnerable to international competition. industry waiting for its judgment long after As we acted in the car industry, rest assured the final Industry Commission report. It that a similar understanding will be given to followed up very quickly—in less than a TCF industries. It is worth mentioning that, in week. I outline this procedure because we will creating a very sound business environment follow the same procedure in relation to the for TCF industries, it just does not stop with TCF industries once the Industry Com- the tariff issue. The government has supported mission’s report is handed down. They can the industry by bringing about a lower Aus- rest assured that we know the debate quite tralian dollar through a very sound fiscal well. Our record, our form, can be seen in management. One of the virtues of a balanced relation to the car industry and, more than budget has been a lower dollar, putting our that, we will give a speedy reply to the report. TCF industries on a far more competitive In fact, like my colleagues, I wish to quote footing in regard to exports and, for that the Prime Minister yesterday—27 August— matter, import competition. Yet at every turn when he assured the workers of the TCF the opposition attempted to frustrate the industries that the government had taken all government’s budgetary process, being ignor- their concerns into consideration. He said: antly unaware or just simply not caring how When the government receives the final report, it a balanced budget will benefit TCF industries will take a speedy decision, as it did with the motor in the long run. manufacturing industry. And in taking the decision, it will certainly pay very strong regard to the The government was left a $10.3 billion interests of the employees in that industry. I regard budget deficit and $100 billion government the closure of the factories like Berlei as being not debt by the previous government, in tandem only a tragedy for the employees, a tragedy for the with severe tariff cuts, and that had more to City of Lithgow, but a tragedy for the region. do with the root cause of unemployment in That should be a fair and proper signal to the this industry and the closure of factories than opposition and to the industry of the anything else. As a senator for Victoria I am government’s thinking in relation to TCF only too aware of the importance the manu- industries. Our decision within the car indus- facturing industry has in my state and, as has try, as I said, to freeze tariffs—I have not been mentioned in this debate, within the heard one speaker from the other side give regional areas. I am sure we have all received credit to this decision, but we have decided to the very fine Council of Textile Fashion freeze tariffs in the car industry until the year Industries of Australia submission entitled A 2004—is a very pragmatic and sensible pause for a cause: TCF 2000 and beyond. outcome for that industry. In framing that That report is full of information on the TCF post-2000 structure decision, the government industries and quotes that they employ some sought to balance two fundamental objectives. 96,000 to 100,000 Australians, of which 8.5 We had to ensure that we were acting, firstly, per cent are within the regional areas of to meet our international trade obligations Australia, which is the area I am most con- and, secondly, to provide the right environ- cerned with. ment to secure the next round of investments In Victoria, the state which employs the within the car industry, therefore stimulating largest number in TCF industries, there are employment within the industry. The extent some 49,600 people employed in TCF indus- to which we have achieved that balance was tries. In the regional areas, in Barwon-West- illustrated only recently with the Toyota ern district there are 1,900 employed, Central decision to make further investments in the Highlands-Wimmera area some 900 em- Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5979 ployed, Loddon-Campaspe-Mallee area 300 ian Weaving Mills. It has a work force which employed and in the Goulburn-Ovens-Murray has been reduced to 300 people. It is a major area 3,200 people employed. So we are only contributor to the Devonport economy. It has too aware of the importance that these indus- an annual turnover of $36 million, of which tries have for the towns and for employment $21 million flows into the local economy. The where these people reside, and the knock-on loss of such an enterprise as this would be effect within those towns. In the town of devastating to a city the size of Devonport, Wangaratta alone there are three very import- because it deals with over 100 companies in ant TCF industries. There is Bruck Textiles a significant way—most of which are located Pty Ltd factory, the Australian Country along the north-west coast. Spinners factory which was once better known as the Wangaratta Woollen Mills, and In the same town, we have Tascot Temple- of course the well-known trademark of Yakka ton, which employs approximately 205 people also resides in Wangaratta. at its east Devonport factory and a further 20 people in mainland offices. Like in so many So we are only too aware of the employ- textile mills, 54 per cent of the Devonport ment benefits that these industries bring to the employees are female; 48 per cent are aged local area. We are not going to leave them to under 30; and 44 per cent have more than five hang out to dry like the previous government years with the company. So any significant did, crushing them with higher interest rates, reduction that the draft report would suggest debt burdens and ever accelerating tariff would have a devastating impact. This com- reductions. We are not going to change pany spends $8.5 million in Tasmania annual- midstream from the 1989 policy to the 1991 ly. policy. We are going to take into account the What would be the effect of the Industry employment factors, the future investment Commission’s recommendations if tariffs on factors and our trade obligations. We will carpets were reduced? May I remind you that come down with a decision not rushed by the they actually have been reduced from 35 per opposition’s motions. We are not spooked by cent to the current 21 per cent. During that this particular motion or, least of all, spooked time, carpet imports have increased by 52 per by Senator Cook, the former minister, who cent, and the number of jobs in that industry had his opportunity to bring some benefits to have fallen by about 20 per cent. The number this industry. We are not spooked at all. We of firms in that industry has roughly halved. will make a very swift decision within the If the recommendations of the Industry month of September in regard to this industry Commission’s report were adopted and tariffs once the IC report is handed down. were further reduced from 15 per cent in the Senator WATSON (Tasmania) (5.15 year 2000 to five per cent in the year 2005, p.m.)—I wish to take a few minutes initially Tascot Templeton estimate a reduction of in this debate to outline the importance of the approximately a third of their work force and textiles, clothing and footwear industries to minimal future investment. my state of Tasmania. The industries there We can then go to the opposite end of the employ approximately 1,500 people and island, to Blundstone footwear. They employ generate over $140 million in sales turnover 320, and the company’s future directly affects annually. They provide significant value another 28 people employed at a local tan- adding. This value adding is particularly nery—value adding. Blundstone consists of a important to agricultural products, including highly integrated group of companies; that is, wool and hides. a tannery and two modern footwear factories I will take a few moments to look at the owned and operated by a family whose importance and the structure of a number of continuous involvement in the manufacture of these firms in Tasmania. We can look at footwear spans 140 years. The company is Australian Weaving Mills, and I suppose no highly specialised and is Australia’s largest firm has been restructured more than Austral- manufacturer of heavy duty work and protec- 5980 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 tive safety footwear, servicing markets in technology, and Australia’s purchasers of TCF Australia and overseas. products are very much closer to world prices Importantly, the last decade has seen con- now than they were a decade ago, so gains to tinuing heavy investment in new technologies consumers in the future will be much more and plant and unprecedented growth in pro- modest, but lower protection in the future will duction and sales. The modern footwear generate large job losses. factory has the latest technology which I put it to the Senate that the Australian ensures flexibility, high quality and efficient textiles, clothing and footwear industries productivity. Blundstone maintains a strong should not be expected to operate unprotected and comprehensive program of apprentice- while transport, waterfront and communica- ships and cadetships to develop its work tions industries, to name but a few, are re- force. In fact, this company’s achievements forming very slowly. If the TCF industries in were recognised with an Australian Export Australia are to be internationally competitive, Award in 1996. Blundstone will continue to these other issues must also be addressed, and invest in new equipment and technology and addressed at perhaps the same speed. become more competitive, but that relies on Very few companies would be in a position Australia’s trading partners falling into line to achieve 10 to 20 per cent productivity and all participants competing on a level increases in a year or two, and yet this is playing field. They have indicated that part of exactly what a sudden reduction in protection their operation may be forced offshore if the would require companies to achieve in order recommendations of the draft report are to survive. I remind the Senate that once an followed. industry and factories are wiped out, it is I must say that no other country put its almost impossible to re-establish them. Time textiles, clothing and footwear industries must be allowed for the textiles, clothing and under the sort of pressure that the Labor Party footwear industries to adjust; otherwise put Australia’s industries under. Slow reduc- increasing competition from imports will tions are easier for the industry to cope with. continue to cause them to contract. With some slow adjustments, natural attrition The Industry Commission’s findings fly in can be relied upon to reduce some of the the face of the Mortimer recommendations. work force. But, with rapid adjustment, Mortimer says, ‘Go for growth and the role of employers could be forced to retrench em- the business programs in investment, innova- ployees or close their doors. We have already tion and export.’ The Mortimer report pro- seen some of that because of the fear of the vides a framework for the government to Industry Commission’s attitude towards achieve a goal which all Australians can share textiles. in. There must be a level playing field. This I think what is important in Tasmania—and is important. this is generally true on the mainland—is that But there is a problem. The Industry Com- a large percentage of their work force are mission should pause further tariff reductions young and female. Should these people lose after the year 2000 at their 2000 levels until their jobs, they are not readily able to pack at least the year 2005, when there should be their families up and go to Melbourne or to a re-examination of the progress that has been another centre. Many of these people have made. I believe that many of the conclusions husbands who work in other industries. that have been arrived at by the Industry Tasmania has the highest unemployment rate Commission were very subjective indeed. in Australia, and jobs are scarce for the Only a small change in some of those matters unskilled. So it is rather difficult. which it relied upon could have a large I point out to the Senate that most of the impact in terms of output. At a national level, large gains to be expected from reducing it is predicted that the investment between tariffs further and at such speed have already 2000 and 2005 could drop from a projected been achieved. Australian manufacturers have $84 million to $9 million if the IC’s recom- been forced to improve quality and upgrade mendations were to be adopted. Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5981

Another quick word on the assumptions on work force and it failed the industries’ export which the IC’s calculations were made: they objectives. were very subjective and not scientific. Small Our government, the coalition government, variations in these assumptions could actually now has the task of providing for a caring, change the cost to Australian consumers from pragmatic policy for these industries which the IC quoted figure of $20,000 per employee will guide them through the necessary chan- to just $2,540 per employee. The other thing ges over the next decade without sacrificing is that we must take into account the social, them to join the hundreds of thousands of unemployment and underemployment costs unemployed people who became permanent arising from the IC’s recommendations. It fixtures in this country through 13 years of must have a wider concern across the whole Labor government—and many more as a community, taking into account other than result of the policies of the earlier Whitlam just economic factors. government. As I said earlier, it is an import- What is disappointing is the crocodile tears ant industry for Tasmania. Those people need which are now coming from the Australian respect from government. They expect to Labor Party, because these come in respect of operate and to live in a dignified way. an industry which that party has done so I naturally have a serious personal interest much in the last 25 years to destroy. I admit in this matter—and I suppose I must declare much of what Senator Cook had to say; an interest—being a former employee within however, the textiles, clothing and footwear the textile industry. But these industries must industries are not well set up to be the van- be given a fair chance to survive, to prosper guard of world trade reforms. The difficulties and to profit from the restructuring that has so many businesses find themselves in today taken place. The result will then be that these are the result of the policies imposed on them people can work and continue to find satisfy- by the previous Labor government, in which ing employment and security well into the Senator Cook was a major player. next century. Until very recently, Senator Cook was a I continue to have very vivid memories of prime advocate of continuing tariff reductions the catastrophic results in my home city of and the internationalisation of the economy, Launceston, which suffered from the over- including the textile industry. While I wel- night reduction of the 25 per cent across-the- come his change of heart, one must at the board tariff cuts and revaluations of the dollar same time consider it hypocritical, particularly which cut a swathe through employment in as thousands of people have lost their jobs as Australia, and particularly in my city of Laun- a result of those policies. Naturally, he was ceston. formerly committed to tariff reductions. But the textile industry still survives. It Senator Cook and his colleagues are now deserves to survive. It has undergone many, trying to commit to a caring attitude towards many changes, with improved efficiencies. In those workers. I acknowledge that caring fact, if you look at many of the efficiencies in attitude, but where was that caring attitude 13 textiles, they rank pretty high by world years previously—or even in the last 25 standards. And when you start comparing our years—because between 1988 and 1994— performance with Asian performances per employee, Australian efficiencies rank well, Senator Conroy—Where was Captain even with the so-called lower paid Asian Zero? What policy did you run on in 1993? populations employed in textiles. Senator WATSON—Your Labor govern- Australia has nothing to gain and plenty to ment, Senator Conroy, allowed factory em- lose by being in the vanguard of further tariff ployment to fall by 32 per cent overall, reforms, so a pause is necessary. I believe our employment to fall by 20 per cent and manu- government will deliver a pragmatic outcome, facturing output to fall by 24 per cent. The somewhat similar to that achieved in the Labor government failed Australia’s textiles, motor car industry where the motor car clothing and footwear industries, it failed the industry can now see a future. That was 5982 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 certainly good news for Launceston, where in the way they were under the previous the very efficient, export orientated ACL Whitlam government. Bearing Company is actually putting on extra Many Australians will recall what happened staff as a result of that decision, and the during the Gough Whitlam era in relation to motor car industry generally has re-invested. the reduction of tariffs. If you want to know We have seen a good result from Toyota, why the electorate of Bass fell at the 1975 by- which would never have been possible with- election and then was retained as a Liberal out a pragmatic decision by the Liberal- seat for so long, it was a result of the Labor National Party coalition in relation to the Party’s dealing with tariffs, because it was felt motor car industry. very, very severely by the people of Tasman- We must carefully monitor the reforms of ia. our major competitors or we are seriously at It seems somewhat strange that the Labor risk of simply exporting the jobs of Australian Party should therefore come into this chamber workers. We have done that too often in the with that sort of record and move a motion of past and that must not be allowed to continue. this nature. What we need to do is remember So we must have a slow progress towards what certain people in the past, such as Mr lower tariffs. At the same time, we must have Crean, have told us. He said: a close monitoring of the ongoing effects No-one understands better than Labor that the tariff which will permit the industry to adapt and war has been fought and won. After all, it was plan for its future. As I mentioned earlier, Labor that fought and won it. many of the large gains possible through So the Labor Party in the past have tried to restructuring and reform have already been claim credit for changes in relation to tariffs. achieved. How much more are you going to We were told also by Mr Crean that: expect from Australian woollen mills in terms Labor is not proposing to restore the high tariff of their restructuring, change of ownership, barriers of the past or keep them in existing levels change of location and so on? indefinitely. The Labor Party pursued a policy which was Many Australian businesses have now clearly a policy of reducing tariffs. Part and greatly improved technology and productivity, parcel of that was the deal that they did with compared with some decades ago. There the DuPont factory, which in recent times has would be very few industries which could closed down. Senators might recall that $60 achieve this 10 to 20 per cent extra produc- million of taxpayers’ funds were introduced tivity over the period of a year or two at this into that factory to save 160 jobs and, because stage. As a result, I believe that the industry they did not stitch the deal up properly, the should receive a pragmatic treatment, and it factory closed anyway. If you have a look at deserves such. It has done a lot to cope with that for a job subsidy, it really is a very high the change, to keep alive, to keep going and level of subsidisation. The motion before us, to keep people employed. But unlike the as I have indicated, really is one that high- opposition, who think they can gain short- lights the hypocrisy of the Australian Labor term credibility from performing backflips, Party when it is put into the context of the our government will provide a program on way that Labor have dealt with this issue in which the TCF sector can draw confidence the past. into the future. It is important to set the record straight: Senator ABETZ (Tasmania) (5.34 p.m.)—I everybody is talking about the recommenda- am delighted to be part of this debate and, in tions of a commission which is a report to particular, to be able to follow on from the government, not of government. The final comments made by Senator John Watson, report is due out on 9 September. The govern- because he, I dare say of anybody in this ment will then consider that final report and chamber, is acutely aware of the problems make a decision. The government has made that have arisen in the past in relation to this no decision whatsoever at this stage. Any industry, such as when tariffs were dealt with factories that are closing down, such as Berlei Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5983 or DuPont, are closing down as a result of overseas imports once those tariffs are re- Labor policies that are still in force. duced. It is therefore appropriate, in my We, as a government, have studied the submission, that we reduce tariffs, not over- Industry Commission draft report very care- night, as the previous Whitlam government fully. We will also study their final report did, but wean industry off tariffs slowly but very carefully. But then we, as the govern- surely so that ultimately the Australian people ment, will make the final decision for the can benefit with lower priced items. benefit of all Australians, and that is some- We should remember that these tariffs do thing that has to be recognised and remem- impact on our exporting capacities and capa- bered. There are certain elements within the bilities. For example, the tariff on the car community that are seeking to suggest that industry adds to the costs of a motor vehicle the draft report, which is the topic of discus- in this country. Therefore, every business that sion these days, is in fact a government uses a motor vehicle in this country for the decision. It is not a government decision and purposes of production for export has to it is a decision that we will consider in detail factor that extra increased price into its cost and determine. when it seeks to export its product overseas. I think the people of Australia can feel Therefore, by that extent, the product that confident that we will deal with this issue in they manufacture is so much less competitive a mature and considered manner. After all, than it otherwise would be. They are some of there were similar recommendations from this the factors that need to be understood. commission in relation to the car industry. I note in recent times that there have been We, as a government, did not fully embrace newly formed political parties suggesting we those recommendations. We looked at them ought to have tariffs in relation to virtually and factored them in with the socioeconomic everything and nothing to protect Australian factors as well and made a decision which industry. Just keep in mind that if we were to will see a reduction in tariffs. We also en- go down that path it would in fact be a tax on sured ongoing investment in the vital car every single Australian citizen who had to industry to the extent that Toyota has an- buy those products at inflated prices. Remem- nounced a $1 billion plant and investment. ber that if the people of Australia can buy They are the sorts of decisions this govern- those products at a cheaper price they would ment makes. Sure, it gets reports to advise therefore have more money left over in their itself but then it factors in the socioeconomic pocket to be able to spend on other domestic matters as well to ensure that a good outcome items, so that money would not simply be lost is arrived at. to the economy. It ought be remembered that tariffs per se In typical style, I note that there is an are not necessarily good economically. What amendment from our friends the Australian you have to remember is that ultimately a Democrats suggesting that there should be a tariff is a tax. Every product that is protected freeze on TCF tariff reductions effective by tariffs within this country means that the immediately. consumer, the Australian public, has to pay Senator Murray—You agree of course. more for that particular item. Therefore, you Senator ABETZ—Senator Murray says, are making the consumers, our fellow Austral- ‘You agree of course.’ I have to say to you, ians, buy product for higher prices. As a Senator Murray, you are jumping the gun. All result, it is quite a sensible and responsible you are doing is responding to a draft report. economic policy to pursue to try to seek a It may well be that the commission makes reduction in those tariffs no matter in what that very recommendation to us as a govern- industry they might apply. ment, but we do not know because they have However, you have to do it in a sensible not reported yet. The final report still has not way so that industry can adjust—readjust its come down, but Senator Murray can second work force and its investments and ensure that guess the commission. He knows better and it is able to meet the competitive factors of he is going to determine that that ought be the 5984 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 case. He does not tell us for how long that 160 jobs. If you divide that $60 million by freeze ought to be on. 160 jobs, it is an interesting exercise. How Senator Murray—If you listened to my much subsidy per job is that? Have you ever speech you would know. stopped to think about that, Senator Murray? If you have a calculator, work it out and you Senator ABETZ—It does not say so in the would be surprised. motion, Senator Murray. That is one of the dangerous things with the Democrats: they Senator Murray—Tell us; tell us. will put one thing in a motion and say some- Senator ABETZ—It is $375,000. It is a thing different in their supporting speech. very challenging figure. When you think That is why you can never actually pin them about that, you start to realise that trying to down on anything, and they are a moving pick winners and losers in this industry game feast when it comes to policy. is not a very clever policy. What you need is It ill behoves this parliament to try to a general policy but one that is sensitive to second guess the final report. I think it is the social and economic needs of this country. appropriate that the government be given sufficient time to consider that report and to Senator Conroy—Captain Zero! come down with a considered opinion and Senator ABETZ—There is a would-be-if- policy response to that report. With respect to he-could-be on the other side who interjects the amendment of the Australian Democrats, with the term ‘Captain Zero’. Undoubtedly he it really is jumping the gun and not wanting is looking at a portrait of Mr Gough Whitlam to hear all the evidence that might be avail- somewhere because that is exactly what he able. I would hope and trust that the Austral- did to the industry which so devastated the ian Democrats will still have a sufficiently people of Bass back in 1975. open mind that they are able to listen and So it ill behoves the Australian Labor Party consider the Industry Commission’s final to think that somehow they have the right report and develop a response to that rather policy mix. If you have a look at the result of than closing off all options as they seem to Berlei and if you have a look at the result of want to do in their amendment. DuPont under Labor policy, they are closing This Democrat amendment is in the same down. They are the results of Labor policy. vein as the comments made by the shadow Yet have a look at what we did in the car industry minister, Mr Crean, who has sought industry and you get a $1 billion investment. to be critical of the government for, to use his That is a good result, a great result, for words, ‘letting the thing drift; they failed to everybody and it will ultimately mean cheaper follow up and get commitments from the cars for the consumers of Australia. companies’ then demanding that the govern- ment force DuPont to honour its commit- The Australian Labor Party is absolutely ments. How can we let the thing drift when scared that we on this side of the chamber are the final report isn’t even down yet? It really going to do another good, sensible deal like is a ludicrous suggestion to say, when you we did with the car industry. So they are commission somebody and they put down a trying to get in first to try to champion the draft report, ‘We won’t wait for their final cause. But, of course, the Labor Party’s report. We ought to come down with our record in this area is so abysmal that nobody policy decision before that commission has is going to believe them or even suggest that had the opportunity to factor in all of the they are going to regain any credibility in this community response.’ policy area. It is interesting that he made those com- Our record is a very good record. Let me ments in relation to DuPont which, in fact, is just remind the Senate of what the Prime a classic example of what happens when you Minister (Mr Howard) said only yesterday. He simply try to subsidise an industry such as said: DuPont and they close down anyway after . . . when the government receives the final re- $60 million worth of taxpayers’ money for port— Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5985 and I stress that that still has not been re- moved by Senator Cook. I am pleased to be ceived yet— associated with this government’s tariff policies. it will take a speedy decision, as it did with the motor manufacturing industry. Senator COOK (Western Australia)—I move: We are already on record as saying that we will act speedily as we did with the motor That the question be put. manufacturing industry. That was such a good The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT policy result that you people are so upset by (Senator Watson)—The time has actually it. The Prime Minister continued: just expired, Senator. And in taking that decision, it will certainly pay Senator Abetz—That is why I sat down. very strong regard to the interests of employees in Senator COOK—I moved the question be that industry. put before the time was called as having That is the bottom line. The Prime Minister expired. has given that commitment and the people of The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— Australia can feel satisfied that that is going Technically, yes, you did call it with two to be the policy outcome as it was with the seconds remaining. I am advised by the clerks car industry. As the Prime Minister went on that the light was still on. According to my to say: clock, I think there were about one to two seconds. There is some confusion about which I regard the closure of factories like Berlei as being not only a tragedy for the employees, a tragedy for clocks the senator was looking at when he sat the City of Lithgow, but a tragedy for the region. down. I will take some advice from the clerks. That is our concern. We have shared it and put it on the public record with the Australian Senator Abetz—Mr Acting Deputy Presi- people. We have shown our credentials in dent, as I understood it, there was a certain relation to the motor vehicle industry. We are time allocated to this debate. accepted in the Australian community as Senator Jacinta Collins—You sat down doing the right thing in relation to tariffs. I before you were asked, Senator. am sure that everybody in their heart of hearts Senator Abetz—No, whilst I recognise my in this place knows that it is bad economic speaker’s clock was set on 20 minutes, I policy to simply perpetuate tariffs without understood that I would not necessarily be giving consideration to their reduction to given 20 minutes because the time for the ensure benefits for the Australian consumers debate would have expired at 5.52 p.m. at large. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— Our policy, very simply, is one of responsi- The time was set by the clock which the bility, one of consideration and one of taking clerks certainly go by. That is the ruling that everything on board to ensure that whatever I will have to provide. So the question that decision is taken will be one that factors into Senator Cook put, is that the question be put. account all those competing interests— Senator Murray—Can I speak? consumers wanting cheaper prices and con- The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— sumers wanting a choice of a range of goods There is no debate. at affordable prices—whilst also ensuring the viability of Australian based industries which, Senator Murray—Just a point of order, Mr at the moment, rely on tariffs, and which will Acting Deputy President. My amendment was be able to continue in a regime with lower before the Senate well prior to this. tariffs if they are slowly weened off them to The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— provide the sorts of results that we in Austral- That is the question that will be before the ia all look forward to. chair. The people of Australia will see through the Question put: shallowness and shabbiness of the motion That the question be now put. 5986 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997

The Senate divided. [5.59 p.m.] That the resolution just agreed to by the Senate be communicated by message to the House of (The President—Senator the Hon. Margaret Representatives for concurrence. Reid) Ayes ...... 31 BILLS RETURNED FROM THE Noes ...... 30 HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES —— Message received from the House of Repre- Majority ...... 1 sentatives intimating that it had agreed to the —— further amendments made by the Senate to the AYES Constitutional Convention (Election) Bill. Allison, L. Bishop, M. Bourne, V. Brown, B. COMMITTEES Carr, K. Conroy, S. * Cook, P. F. S. Cooney, B. The PRESIDENT—It being after 6.00 Crowley, R. A. Denman, K. J. p.m., we now move to consideration of Faulkner, J. P. Forshaw, M. G. government documents. There are 61 commit- Gibbs, B. Harradine, B. tee reports and government responses listed Hogg, J. Kernot, C. for consideration on today’s Notice Paper and Lees, M. H. Lundy, K. Mackay, S. Margetts, D. there is a limit of less than one hour for their McKiernan, J. P. Murray, A. consideration. To expedite the consideration Neal, B. J. O’Brien, K. W. K. of the documents I propose, with the concur- Ray, R. F. Reynolds, M. rence of honourable senators, to call the Schacht, C. C. Sherry, N. documents in groups of five. With the concur- Stott Despoja, N. West, S. M. rence of the Senate, I further propose that Woodley, J. items called on to which no senator rises be NOES taken to be discharged from the Notice Paper. Abetz, E. Boswell, R. L. D. Those not called on today will remain on the Brownhill, D. G. C. Calvert, P. H. Chapman, H. G. P. Coonan, H. Notice Paper. Is there any objection to that Crane, W. Eggleston, A. proposal? There being no objection to the Ferguson, A. B. Ferris, J proposition of the process, it is so ordered. Gibson, B. F. Heffernan, W. * We are dealing with documents and responses Herron, J. Kemp, R. as on page 7 of today’s Notice Paper—orders Knowles, S. C. Lightfoot, P. R. of the day relating to committee reports and Macdonald, I. Macdonald, S. MacGibbon, D. J. McGauran, J. J. J. government responses. I call on the first five Newman, J. M. O’Chee, W. G. papers listed in that section. Patterson, K. C. L. Payne, M. A. Community Affairs References Reid, M. E. Synon, K. M. Tierney, J. Troeth, J. Committee Vanstone, A. E. Watson, J. O. W. Report PAIRS Debate resumed from 26 June, on motion Bolkus, N. Ellison, C. by Senator Neal: Childs, B. K. Alston, R. K. R. Collins, J. M. A. Minchin, N. H. That the Senate take note of the report. Collins, R. L. Parer, W. R. Senator WEST (New South Wales) (6.08 Evans, C. V. Hill, R. M. p.m.)—I highlight that this committee report Foreman, D. J. Campbell, I. G. on access to medical records was undertaken Murphy, S. M. Tambling, G. E. J. in recent times and is vitally important, * denotes teller because it deals with the issue of who owns Question so resolved in the affirmative. medical records. There is a great deal of debate that has been going on in society as to Amendment negatived. who owns access to medical records. Original question resolved in the affirma- I was the chair for the initial part of these tive. hearings, and found this to be of a great deal Motion (by Senator Cook) agreed to: of interest. There were some within the Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5987 medical profession who had a great deal of that lawyers would advise them to undertake problem with this and who were adamant that expensive and time consuming legal action. they had ownership of the records. There was As this community becomes more litigious some hesitancy on the part of a number of that situation has to be borne in mind. It is a people to give their patients access to records, very interesting professional judgment that a because they had certain fears. Interestingly, lot of people have to make. I have difficulty some of these concerns were expressed by understanding why people are totally opposed groups that you would have thought would to patients and clients knowing what is express less concern than some other groups. written in their medical and personal records, Psychiatrists deal with people who have because what is written there is about the mental illness and who may have a problem patient, about the person. accepting and understanding their condition. Evidence was given that people would use They may well be in a fairly severe delusional cryptic comments, would feel more con- state of mind which may include paranoia and strained in what they write and would resort psychoses. They may even have thoughts of to having two sets of records. One has to self-harm or harm to other people. However, wonder, though, about the medico-legal psychiatrists were not as opposed as I think aspects of this issue and the fact that all a number of people would have thought to records can be summonsed or subpoenaed to their patients getting access to medical re- be brought to court. One has to wonder about cords. A number of psychiatrists wished to the fact that people are saying they will write have support provided to the patient when the less in records. There is a legal requirement patient looked at the information that was for people to write full records. As someone contained in their medical record, and some- who has written medical records, I would body available—maybe themselves or some- have thought it would be a polite requirement body else—to provide an explanation as to on the part of people when they do write their what the situation was. It was a very interest- records that what they write is absolutely ing situation in that the college and the complete. There are ways to write some of psychiatrists understood and supported the these records: you do not have to make value need for their patients to understand their judgments, and you should not make subjec- medical condition. tive judgments about people. You can write We also had some interesting submissions down the signs and symptoms and what the and evidence from lawyers. They felt that it patient is complaining of without using could be beneficial if there was greater access whatever sort of slang term is current. to medical records in situations where the I have seen medical records—certainly relationship between the doctor and the going back a number of years—with terms patient had broken down. At the moment, if like ‘PF’ written down. That means ‘purely patients want to look at their reports and their functional’ in polite terminology—it had other medical records and are unable to do so, less polite terms. I was always concerned sometimes the only way to do so is by insti- when I saw that sort of comment written on gating litigation. medical records, because subsequently there There was concern on the part of the were a number of occasions when the patient doctors that greater access to medical records actually did have a serious, complex or very would bring about increased litigation. But discrete and obscure disease, and when the there was concern, and evidence was given by use of the letters ‘PF’ would have caused legal authorities, that people are often forced quite significant problems for the medical to undertake legal proceedings to get access personnel if they ended up in a court of law. to their medical records at the discovery stage If they had documented accurately and of legal proceedings. If they were able to get precisely the signs and symptoms about which access to their medical records prior to insti- the patient was complaining and left it up to gating legal proceedings, the situation would people to make a judgment based on objective be explained to them: that there is no way signs and the patient’s subjective symptoms 5988 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 of which they were complaining, then you that the cuts that are taking place to the would have got a more accurate picture of the workloads of the Human Rights and Equal patient. You would not have got a value Opportunity Commission and the Privacy judgment and you might have got a speedier Commissioner do not impact upon this diagnosis and therefore speedier treatment for government having a policy and implementing some people who have required major forms a legislative framework within which this can of treatment. work. This is an issue of great significance to It is an issue of major concern. I think people, particularly those with chronic illness. people should have access to their medical For people who have only a one-off illness, records. I think many doctors these days are it might not be so much of a problem. Cer- certainly very aware of this matter and do go tainly, for people with chronic illness, the to great lengths to make sure that their pa- evidence we heard showed that it is a major tients understand what is written in the files. problem. That has to be the situation because we are Senator HERRON (Queensland—Minister wanting people to have greater compliance for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander with treatment orders, and we are wanting Affairs) (6.19 p.m.)—I would not like to people to have greater understanding of the engage in persiflage in discussing this report treatments they are to undertake and the but it would not surprise me to learn that consequences and interactions of drugs, some will finagle their records and give the diagnoses and multiple diagnoses. old yo-ho to those who scrutinise them. The only way you can do that is if the Senator West—How come you got the patient has a significant understanding of their words before I did? disease and of the treatment. Often, with some Senator HERRON—In one sentence! of the more obscure, rare diseases, it is the patient who develops a level of expertise Question resolved in the affirmative. about their own illness which many doctors Legal and Constitutional References do not fully have. If someone with an ob- Committee scure, rare and difficult medical condition has spent 20 years having it diagnosed and finally Report settling on a treatment that works, the patient, Debate resumed from 26 June, on motion in all likelihood, will know what the results by Senator McKiernan: of their tests should be, what their medica- That the Senate take note of the report. tions should be and what will interact with Senator MACKAY (Tasmania) (6.19 what for them, with their own idiosyncratic p.m.)—I would like to say a few words with reactions. So I think it is vitally important. regard to the second report of the Legal and I have to express some concerns about one Constitutional References Committee on the or two of the witnesses who appeared before Australian legal aid system. This gives me a us. There were one or two who had very chance to highlight yet again the implications condescending attitudes, who said they would of government cuts to legal aid and the type not tell a patient if there had been a little of effect that has had on people’s personal more bleeding than normal. They would tell lives. patients a lot less; they would tell patients This government seems to think that work- what they thought the patient needed to know. ing people, women who have suffered domes- That is a very unfortunate attitude on the part tic violence and so on, access legal aid to of some in the medical profession. I am sure engage in average, day-to-day persiflage or to that Senator Herron, who is present in the say to legal aid lawyers, ‘Look, yo-ho, I’m chamber, would join me in saying it is the here, I’m going to sue the next door neigh- attitude of a very small number of doctors bour because his or her dog barks at night.’ but, unfortunately, there are some out there. The reality is that legal aid is far more serious I think it is vitally important that patients than that. It ought to be a right. It is not in do have access to their medical records and the nature of average Australian citizens to Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5989 finagle their way into a legal aid office and representation with that representation but is engage in frivolous litigation. It is a very a matter of how our legal system is going to serious matter. Many states have attempted to work. We can take the criminal system as an point out to the federal government that the example. By and large the prosecution in any cuts to legal aid have affected their budgets criminal trial will be well resourced. The most seriously. We well recall the comments same cannot be said, in every case, for the of many state premiers from both sides of defence of the accused. It is bad that a con- politics in that regard. test—and that is what it is in the adversarial It is worth highlighting that one of the system—which may well conclude in some- major difficulties with the cuts to legal aid is one losing his or her liberties should be con- in the area of domestic violence. Many ducted unevenly between the parties. women now have nowhere to go. Many In the field of criminal law, it is that con- women now have no access to litigation. cept that makes it necessary that there is Many women now have no access to no-cost equality between the parties. In other words, legal care where they are in a relationship society has an obligation not only to see that which has a domestic violence element to it. people who are accused of criminal offences Of course, whether it comes under federal or are properly prosecuted but also to see that state jurisdiction is still under debate. those people are also properly defended. I think it is a great shame and it adds to the Otherwise, the concept of justice which litany of woe that this government has perpe- underpins the society we live in is denied. trated upon Australian women with regard to I will now address some of the issues that a number of regressive and retrograde meas- Senator Mackay raised. There may be a ures. There are the cuts to legal aid funding contest where a woman has proper grounds and child care. I refer also to the new indus- for fearing for her life and limb and fearing trial relations bill, which impacts most severe- for the life and limb of her children. Clearly, ly upon women. I could go on and on. Cuts the woman and the children should be proper- to higher education have impacted on women ly represented and so should the husband disproportionately, and so on. against whom the accusations have been I think it is worth highlighting that this brought. severe budget measure is having an impact Some fearful accusations can be made and now. It is impacting disproportionately on unless people are properly defended that can women. We regard this measure as regressive cause great concern. Take for example the and retrograde. It is something that we will issue of paedophilia, which is a matter that ensure will be addressed when we get back concerns the public generally. That crime was into government. traditionally called the crime of a rock spider. Senator COONEY (Victoria) (6.23 p.m.)— People who are convicted of the offence of I heard the shadow parliamentary secretary violating young children are very badly speaking on this subject and that is what treated in gaol. It is only proper that anybody brought me to the chamber. Senator Conroy convicted of that offence is convicted using was about to summons me. I thank him for the proper processes. It would be dreadful if that. I start by congratulating the Australian someone accused of that crime were convicted Labor Party for choosing Senator Mackay and of that crime—with all the consequences to Senator Lundy, an eminent senator from the his or her life—without the proper process Australian Capital Territory, as shadow parlia- being followed. The issue of legal aid goes to mentary secretaries. I should add to the list the question of justice. Mr Kelvin Thomson, a member of the House There are budgetary restraints. There is of Representatives, whose selection is almost always a demand for resources. I see that as good as the two in this chamber. Senator Herron is in the chamber. In his area, As Senator Mackay has said, the issue of indigenous people clearly need more re- legal aid is very important. It is not simply a sources. If there is one thing that a society matter of trying to provide people who need should deliver its citizens it is justice. In 5990 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997

England, and it is from that place that we Public Works Committee generally derived the system under which we Reports live, the king had three functions—making the law, carrying out the law and providing Debate resumed from 24 June, on motion justice. Those three arms were separated out, by Senator O’Chee: particularly in the American constitution. That That the Senate take note of the reports. has set the modern plan for good government, Senator CONROY (Victoria) (6.32 p.m.)— which is that those three functions should be Tonight I am speaking on the report of the separated. Those three functions are basic to Public Works Committee entitled Decontami- government. They are what governance is all nation for disposal of the former Albion about. If a society cannot provide those three explosives factory site, Deer Park, Victoria. basic elements it fails. I urge everybody to read this report. It is very important. Government does fail in providing justice In this report there is a situation which is a if it allows people to go into a legal contest shame on Victoria and a shame on the pro- without there being some semblance at least cesses of the government in Victoria. In 1930 of equality between the parties. You can an explosives factory was opened at Deer never get absolute equality. There are going Park. It was state of the art at that time, but to be differences in the sort of representation over the years it became run down because it that is available, but there ought to be a did not have enough investment. The govern- balance that is sufficient to satisfy a reason- ment took the decision in 1985 to close it and able onlooker and make them say, ‘Yes, there transfer the work to New South Wales. is justice being done in this case.’ In 1986 a consultative committee was established and there were public hearings. That is not happening at the moment be- All sorts of groups made submissions, includ- cause people have not got the resources to ing the Brimbank City Council, ICI, the properly exercise their rights, to properly Delfin Property Group and—I guarantee this make a defence of their position or, alterna- is true—Friends of the Striped Legless Lizard tively, to vindicate their position. It is import- Inc. ant, therefore, that we as a national parliament What you have seen is a waste of 10 years. keep wrestling with, not the issue of legal We had the consultative committee come up aid—that is part of what we should be wres- with its proposals to redevelop the site as tling with—but this necessity to provide a fair mainly residential, with some parks as well as system under which we all may live. We are light commercial. presently doing that. Senator Patterson—It sounds a bit snaky to me—a striped legless lizard. The person who sits next to me, Senator Senator CONROY—It is true, Senator McKiernan, is presently conducting an inquiry Patterson, the Friends of the Striped Legless through the Senate Legal and Constitutional Lizard Inc. References Committee on this very point. I hope it is productive. People across the party Senator O’Chee—Does that mean that the line are working very hard at it. Senator lizard was drunk? Abetz is the deputy chairman of that commit- Senator CONROY—It could be, Senator tee. I hope and expect that great things will O’Chee. Because those parks are not devel- come from that inquiry. They need to so that oped today, we do not have children playing we can see that the government under which in the parks—and nowadays parks include we live—when I talk about ‘government’, I swings, roundabouts and xylophones. am talking about the three arms of govern- Senator Herron—I have never seen a park ment—is properly conducted in this country. with a xylophone in it. Senator CONROY—You obviously do not Question resolved in the affirmative. go to enough parks nowadays, Senator Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5991

Herron. The original clean-up bill was only and I know that from personal knowledge around $5 million, and the decontamination because at that stage I was going to the Deer continues 10 years on. We have had the ULA Park state school which was in the local hall, sitting on its hands in Melbourne. the former Deer Park state school having Senator Patterson—It’s a wonder they burnt down. There is a new one there now have any hands. They are not legless and they and Deer Park has expanded. It used to be are not handless people. well out in the bush in those days. It made a great contribution to Australia’s war effort in Senator CONROY—Thank you, Senator the 1939-45 conflict. Patterson. The clean- up has not been com- I remember people used to go to work in pleted and this is a shame on both the the munition factory, as we used to call it, Commonwealth and the state government, when they were 14. I remember at the time because both parties are involved. This is not that children used to make all sorts of inter- a reflection on any individual party and it is esting things with explosives—not weapons, not a question of being partisan. The western but they would put gunpowder between two suburbs of Melbourne have many roads that bolts which were held together by a nut, are unsealed, and many streets have lighting throw it on the road and there would be which would be of more use if they were just explosions. That shows, perhaps, the danger- table lamps. People have ignored that situa- ous enthusiasm of youth. Fortunately, I was tion for too long. not old enough then to work in a factory. Fifteen recommendations came out of this Listening to Senator Conroy brought back report and, unfortunately, not enough of them those memories and I think he is right. I think have been followed up. They talk about tree there ought to be a lot of work done to lines and a black powder mill, and existing preserve a site in the western suburbs which structures which should be demolished. They is quite historic. Listening to him made me look at expert advice on the remediation quite sad that it had not been treated as well options. But there has not been enough as it might, given its war service. The report commitment from the state and federal gov- makes me nostalgic for days that now seem ernments. The need to decontaminate this area romantic and are very long ago. I would like is still there. I invite senators—including to see the recommendations of that report Senator Patterson—when visiting Melbourne carried out. to go to Deer Park, to have a look around and to see for themselves what has continued to Question resolved in the affirmative. be a waste. Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Can you imagine if children—young girls— References Committee went out there in their taffeta dresses in Report: Government Response among all that contamination? It would be a Debate resumed from 24 June 1997, on tragedy. They have had to fence the area off motion by Senator West: and because of that it has become extremely run down and almost like a tip. That the Senate take note of the document. Senator WEST (New South Wales) (6.41 I urge senators to read this report and to p.m.)—The report on the development of encourage their federal and state colleagues to Australia’s air links with Latin America is get behind this project so that they can im- important. It arises out of work which the prove the lifestyles of people in the western Senate Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade suburbs of Melbourne. Committee started in about 1991-92 when we Senator COONEY (Victoria) (6.38 p.m.)— did an inquiry into Australia’s relationships I am very pleased that Senator Conroy raised with Latin America. Prior to then, a lot of the issue of Deer Park. The factories out at people’s understanding of Latin America was Deer Park were quite famous. During war- very persiflageous—one of Carmen Miranda time, they did a lot of production which was and that was about it. People had no under- necessary for the defence efforts of Australia, standing of it being a very important conti- 5992 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 nent and one that, in trading relations, can most conducive incentive for people to travel. have a significant impact on and relationship Business people also have many complaints. with Australia. One of the findings from that Another way to fly—particularly to the initial report was that transport links, particu- eastern coast of Latin America, the South larly air links, between Australia and Latin American continent—is to fly from here to America are difficult. They are sparse and, I Los Angeles and then to Miami and then think it is fair to say, not terribly well pursued down, particularly if you are flying to Brazil. from the Australian point of view, particularly Those are long trips. It takes more than 30 back then. hours to fly. That is very tiring, and it is not The report focused people’s minds on a particularly conducive to encouraging travel. very important part of the world—our neigh- One aspect which needs to be taken into bours on the other side of the Pacific Ocean— account in our relations is the language in and highlighted some of the difficulties that Latin America. Spanish and Portuguese are they were experiencing or that were impeding the two languages spoken. I think this reflects our relationships. There were about 11 recom- poorly on Australians in that we do not have mendations made in this report and I am the correct attitude towards learning other pleased to see that the government accepts languages. We expect and assume that people and supports a lot of them, which will be will all speak English. We forget that Spanish, important in continuing the important links English and Chinese are the three most between this country and Latin America. commonly spoken languages in the world. In recent times, we have seen a significant Not necessarily this report, but I think the increase in some areas of trade and manufac- other report certainly highlighted the need for turing industry. We have seen the Australian the Australian education system to undertake mining sector discover Latin America and and encourage Australian students to learn have a significant input into many of the another language. mines over there and into developing relation- There were issues of fifth freedom rights in ships with the countries and companies to be relation to Aerolineas Argentinas and their able to exploit and bring to fruition many of being able to fly beyond New Zealand. The the mines. You see BHP with l’Escondida and government will consider this in any market, you see a lot of other areas where there is based on an assessment of the additional significant prospecting being undertaken. This benefits to Australia through the provision of is not just of importance to Australia; it is of lower fare levels, higher service quality and significance to the Latin-American countries other gains. This is an area where the air fare as well. costs tend not to be part of the large discount- From a tourism point of view, Australia is ing that occurs in a number of other air routes not a large tourism market. The number of that are operating out of Australia, such as to people of Latin-American origin living in this the UK and some of the Asian ports. So I country is not particularly large. One of the think it certainly behoves the industry and the reasons for that probably does relate to things government to look to ways that can be such as transport links between the two conducive to a fare regime that makes it more continents, but there is potential there for accessible to people to travel. tourists from Latin America to visit Australia. I think the committee’s report and the This potential can only be realised if the air committee’s ongoing interest in Australia’s services do improve. There are several flights Latin-American relations has been significant a week from Buenos Aires through to Austral- in bringing this important area of the world to ia via New Zealand, but the majority of the front of people’s minds—to encourage the people probably end up having to fly from Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade to Sydney or Melbourne into Papeete and Tahiti focus on the importance of Latin America. and then across. With the connection in We are certainly seeing at this present time Papeete, you may be faced with a 10- or 12- that we are competing with them in a number hour or an even longer delay, which is not the of areas. As I said earlier, they have benefited Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5993 from the expertise from our mining com- are they, how many are there and where are panies. We are a competitor, of course, in the they going? You do not have to say, ‘Yo-ho, mining industry. We are a competitor with come over here.’ Chile in the wine industry and the exporting The facts speak for themselves. From 1981 of wine, particularly to Europe. It will certain- to 1994, we saw a growth in passenger move- ly provide competition for the Australian ments between Australia and South America: vintners to meet that challenge. So it is an Argentina 8.96 per cent; Brazil 7.92 per cent; important industry. It is an important market Chile 7.5 per cent; and others 4.56 per cent— for Australia. It is an important group of with a total growth of 7.14 per cent. But countries for us to understand. specifically in the years 1993 to 1995 Argen- I am delighted that this report has had quite tina showed an increase of 45 per cent, Brazil a number of favourable responses from the 45 per cent and Chile 21 per cent. There is government. It is an issue. Latin-American definitely no need for us to finagle our way relations are something that the Senate com- into the Latin-American market. They will mittee has, as I say, pursued for about five or undoubtedly welcome us with open arms as six years now. I think they will continue to part of the broader Pacific community. pursue it, because it is an important area. I do not believe this is sufficiently well Australians need to remember that it is rea- addressed in this report. I believe that the sonably close to us. It certainly is in the same report shows a severe amount of verbosity, hemisphere. Therefore, we understand a without getting down to the real central issue number of their climatic conditions and, that—as my colleague Senator West has because of their industry similarities, a num- said—people currently have to go via Papeete, ber of the problems and the challenges that and that that is not good enough if we are to they face. So I would commend the report be an emerging nation not only in the Asian and the government response to people. region but in areas such as Latin America Senator HOGG (Queensland) (6.50 which are vastly untapped by us. The report p.m.)—While this response cannot be con- recognises the opportunities that are available sidered persiflage, it certainly is not a series there for the Australian people and the Aus- of responses I would have expected. I would tralian government, and the response, whilst have thought that the government, in their it goes part of the way to recognising that we response, would have been far more aggres- need to do more, does not go far enough. sive, particularly when we consider ourselves Question resolved in the affirmative. to be so close in a sense to the Latin- American nations. DOCUMENTS I note in the response by the government University of Canberra that they do acknowledge that there are Senator LUNDY (Australian Capital significant future opportunities for increased Territory) (6.56 p.m.)—by leave—I move: business activity, tourism and investment. They do talk about bilateral air service agree- That the Senate take note of the document. ments with both Chile and Argentina. There I address my comments to the annual report is also a draft agreement with Brazil. How- of the University of Canberra. I do so on the ever, I do not believe that the response by the basis that this particular institution forms a government, whilst it refers to things such as significant part of Canberra’s educational hubbing and opportunities that are there, community. At a time when the Canberra really addresses the issues that are raised in economy is experiencing great challenges, it the original report. is our educational institutions that continue to There is no doubt that, if one looks at be pillars, if you like, in providing some sta- chapter 3, for example, one gets an idea of bility for the economic future of the town. the increasing market that is coming forth The University of Canberra is unique in there. Chapter 3 is about passengers, and there many respects. I would like to pay tribute to are a number of questions that are raised: who one of the programs that exists within the 5994 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997

Faculty of Management, and that is the Centre I would also like to recognise the fact that for Regional and Local Government Studies. two people were awarded honorary doctorates This centre has done some incredibly import- at the University of Canberra this year— ant work in focusing some academic sub- Donald Richmond Horne and Phillip William stance on the concept of regional studies and, Hughes—in recognition of their work in that in particular, on regional economic develop- regard in 1996. Also, to everyone in the ment. students association at the University of While this government will continue to Canberra, I give a big yo-ho. You are doing finagle the confidence of regional Australia, a great job out there. I would like to say to what we have here in the Centre for Regional everybody involved in the students association and Local Government Studies is something at the University of Canberra that you are which is getting out the nuts and bolts of the doing a terrific job and your contribution to parts of initiatives that make up compre- that particular educational institution is hensive regional development plans. Having worthy of recognition in this place. previously been a member of the regional Question resolved in the affirmative. economic development organisation for Canberra and the south-east region of New COMMITTEES South Wales, the absolute importance of this Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade type of work is clear to me. As part of my References Committee comments, I would first like to recognise the significant work of that centre. Report Debate resumed from 19 June, on motion Another comment I would like to make by Senator Forshaw: with respect to the University of Canberra is about the student support structures on cam- That the Senate take note of the report. pus. Having recently visited the university Senator HOGG (Queensland) (7.03 during the University of Canberra’s ‘Do you p.m.)—This report is a result of an inquiry see green?’ week, which focused on environ- that was conducted by the Foreign Affairs, ment initiatives and a whole range of ac- Defence and Trade References Committee tivities relating specifically to the university’s earlier this year. When I last spoke about this environmental programs, it became very clear report, I mentioned some concerns I had to me that the child-care cuts initiated by the about the difficulties that were expressed to federal government have impacted severely on us in relation to the grief experienced by the student support services with respect to families as a result of deaths overseas. That the child-care centre on campus, Kirinari. was not the sole focus of the report. There The loss of the operational subsidy to that were a number of other recommendations in particular centre has put real pressure on the that report, and I would hope at some stage to service it provides. It is the mature age see a considered view of them from the students—predominantly women, but also government. many men—on campus who find the addi- Those recommendations touched a number tional costs the straw that breaks their weekly of issues which one could not take lightly but budget’s back when it comes to their choice which a lot of Australians do not necessarily or opportunity to enter tertiary education. take great cognisance of when they travel. In I say to this government in that respect: particular, I refer to travellers taking out how about you look beyond the persiflage of adequate insurance cover, because this can your own rhetoric with respect to child care affect people, particularly if death is experi- and have a look at how it is impacting upon enced overseas. real people, in this case the students, and One of the things that was drawn to our particularly the mature age students, at the attention during the inquiry was the very University of Canberra, and the disadvantages heavy costs associated with bringing a dead that they are now suffering as a result of person back from overseas. Whilst people do those cuts. not like to think about that side of life—or Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5995 death to be more precise—nonetheless, it was The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT very important that this issue came out in the Senator Watson)—Order! The time for this inquiry as quite substantial costs are involved. debate has expired. If this inquiry serves no other purpose or if ADJOURNMENT my addressing this chamber this evening The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I serves no other purpose than to draw the propose the question: attention of the Australian public to the fact That the Senate do now adjourn. that they should take out adequate insurance, then something would have been achieved. In Women the recommendation, there is also an urging Conference for Older Australians to have this done through the travel agencies, because it is something that people are just Senator PATTERSON (Victoria) (7.07 not in any way cognisant of, and it is some- p.m.)—I rise tonight to speak to this thing that is very important indeed. government’s commitment to listening to the women of Australia and to addressing the real The other thing that I found interesting in issues for Australian women. Today and the report was the fact that the committee yesterday I had the great pleasure of meeting recognised there was a need to institute a with women’s organisations present here in formal counselling program for consular Canberra for the national women’s round officers as soon as possible when they have table consultations, organised by the Minister been in touch with members of the public Assisting the Prime Minister for the Status of who have suffered a loss overseas. I think this Women, Senator Jocelyn Newman. Never was highly admirable, and I am sure it is one before—certainly never under Labor—have of the recommendations that the government women had a two-day opportunity to network will respond to in a positive way. and meet with members, senators, ministers, advisers and departmental officials. For On a lighter side though, there were some example, today the minister had organised for interesting expectations expressed to us of advisers from various departments, and senior how the Australian tourist overseas sees the staff from ministers’ offices, to come and role of the Australian embassy or the Aus- meet with the women to discuss issues in an tralian high commission. In one instance, it informal way over lunch. Every opportunity was reported to us that some Australians had was used to make sure they had as much an expectation that, at grand final time, the contact with government as possible. Australian embassy or high commission It is not hyperbole to say that many of the would make available to them a direct telecast women attending have been frankly stunned of the Aussie Rules grand final. Whilst that that the federal Minister Assisting the Prime might be a highly laudable and praiseworthy Minister for the Status of Women actually task for the embassies and high commissions stayed and listened to what they had to say. to undertake, it certainly is not one of their The national women’s round table is only one duties or roles. Some Australians, unfortunate- of the consultative mechanisms put into place ly, have a distorted view of the role and the by this government. The major mechanism for function of our embassies and high commis- Australian women to put their concerns to sions overseas. government is the massive number of coali- tion women listening and consulting with So the report in itself, which touches a wide their constituents all over Australia. range of issues, is something which is highly worth reading. I trust that the government will In my own home state of Victoria, women give us some very positive responses to a make up the majority of the Liberal Senate report that was arrived at in a fairly harmoni- team. And we had no dodgy quotas. We did ous way. not have to ask the union men or the faction hard men for permission to take our places Question resolved in the affirmative. here and in the other place. The coalition 5996 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 rewards merit—and merit alone earned the tion of symptoms or as an object of pity and record number of coalition women their scorn. places at the table. Those of us who were at the dinner last The minister has appointed a number of night, hosted by Minister Newman, and saw these coalition women to a parliamentary the Older Women’s Network theatre group advisory group, of which I am the Victorian performing would have realised that all those representative. Like all of my colleagues on myths, all those stereotypes, are wrong. They the parliamentary advisory group, I have been are the most energetic, lively group of people busy meeting and consulting with women in who put through theatre their living of life, my state, listening to the concerns of Victori- despite for some of them disabilities with an women and feeding them back to the arthritis and other health problems that may minister. At the same time I have had the have reduced their physical ability. But their support of the state minister responsible for spirit was strong and the message they had for the status of women, who has sent either her all of us there was that there was a lot of senior adviser or one of the senior depart- living to do if you were an older person and, mental officers to also list the issues of state in particular, if you were an older woman. and federal concerns or state concerns alone. For 10 years I campaigned against the One of the concerns I have heard from inequity of compulsory retirement in the many of the women I have met with over the Commonwealth Public Service. I introduced last few months has been the concern about into this place two private members’ bills older women in the Australian community. I across two parliamentary sessions and hardly have been pleased to advise them that this raised a headline. I got no support from the government shares their concerns and that we Labor Party or from the Democrats. There have addressed Labor’s shameful neglect of was always some feeble excuse about the fact older women. Older women were the forgot- that we could not cope with compensation for ten women under Labor. In the glamour and people over 65 with Workcare, Comcare and hoopla of Mr Keating’s smoke and mirrors whatever else. It was an inadequate response. women’s policy, they were not even thrown All the other states had managed to do it. Yet the bone of a meaningless quota. After all, the always Labor came up with some sort of biggest thing women ever got under Labor hurdle that meant they were unable or unwill- was a quota, with a commitment to fulfilling ing to do it, and the Democrats went along that quota entirely optional. with it. I regretted that for a long time. I thought it was a private member’s bill that I want to take this opportunity to address had a great deal of merit. So the same groups this government’s commitment to older who so noisily protested at any attempt at women and particularly the ways in which we discrimination against young women or will continue to help them achieve financial working women, as they rightly should, were security in later life. By 2020, one in every inexplicably mute when it came to protecting four Australian women will be over 55. As the rights of older Australians. the number of older people as a proportion of the population increases, so will the number Older women working in the Public Ser- of older women as a proportion of the older vice, many of whom had interrupted careers population. Latest figures show that there are with child bearing, wished to keep working to 76 men for every 100 women in the 65-plus compensate for lost earnings due to caring age group and only 42 men for every 100 earlier in their careers. Yet no group sprang women in the 85-plus age group. to their defence, no-one lobbied on their behalf and no-one supported me, other than In the mass media, if she is mentioned at my colleagues on this side of the chamber, in all, the older woman is often portrayed as a my attempts to redress what I thought was a social vampire—frail, dependent and requiring discriminatory part of the Public Service Act. expensive care in a residential nursing facility. More than anything, this proved to me the Older women are depicted either as a collec- tacit acceptance of discrimination against Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5997 older people which exists in Australian getting a new one or getting the house re- society and the deeper disinterest in the painted or the roof repaired, this plan can be aspirations of older women. used by older women to make the major Last night when the Older Women’s Net- expenditures they could never otherwise work were doing their performance one line afford, giving them peace of mind and securi- they used was that age is an activity practised ty in retirement. Of course it will not be taken by the temporarily young. I thought how right up by everyone, but it is there and it is a they were. The government has broken ranks choice and it is an option. with Labor inaction and implemented real and There are many other developments that effective changes for older women. The new have come into place such as the guarantee Public Service Act before this parliament will for the aged pension, savings rebate and other eliminate that discriminatory aspect of making measures which we have introduced. One of people retire when they reach 65. the other things is that the Prime Minister (Mr The deferred pension bonus plan is also an Howard) has appointed a conference for older important thing for older women. It was Australians to address the issue of the Interna- introduced in the last budget by the Minister tional Year of Older Persons in 1999. We will for Social Security, Senator Newman. It be consulting with the community to look for recognises that some women who have broken ways and means in which we can address their careers with their caring responsibilities issues that affect older people, particularly may wish to continue participating in the older women—issues such as flexibility in work force. Under the plan, people who housing and other areas of concern. It demon- choose to keep on working, defer the taking strates that we are a government which is up of an age or service pension and continue concerned about older women. (Time expired) to work for at least 25 hours a week, will accrue a bonus of 9.4 per cent of his or her South Australia: Leader of the basic pension entitlement. This bonus will Opposition accrue for each year of employment beyond Senator SCHACHT (South Australia) age or service pension age up to a maximum (7.17 p.m.)—Yesterday on two occasions I of five years. The bonus will be paid as a read into the Hansard record of the Senate lump sum on pension take-up and will be tax material relating to the case between Mike exempt. Rann, the Leader of the Opposition in South The potential value of this to older women, Australia, as the plaintiff, and the Premier of particularly an older woman who has been South Australia, Mr Olsen, as the defendant, widowed or divorced, cannot be overestimat- in a defamation case. ed. Sixteen per cent of women aged 60 to 64 years and 71 per cent of women aged 85 Senator Ian Macdonald—Did you get a years and over are widows. Forty per cent of headline? women aged 65 and over live alone with sole Senator SCHACHT—You should have a financial responsibility for the upkeep of their seen it. It was a ripper today, an absolute homes. ripper. I will come back to that in a moment, The maximum bonus of $21,251 for a Senator Macdonald. I have already read some single pensioner and $34,450 for a couple of it into the record of the Hansard because could be used to pay for major expenditures the government refused permission for me to before retirement. We have also worked out table these documents. In view of Senator that, if it was depleted over a period, it would Macdonald’s remarks, I would have to say provide a significant amount on an annual that I thank the government now for not basis for the emergency things such as roof- letting me table it because the coverage I got ing, hot water services or whatever else that as a result in today’s Adelaide Advertiser was tend to breakdown and that are very difficult much greater than if you had allowed me to to repair when you are on a pension. Whether table it because everybody in South Australia, it is getting rid of the old clunker car and including the Advertiser, believes the govern- 5998 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 ment has something to hide in this case on the Greek Orthodox church on 10 November behalf of Mr Olsen. 1996. 12.2 The defendant says no such conversation I have already read into the Hansard the with the plaintiff took place as alleged. statement of claim by Mr Rann. I am halfway 13. As to paragraph 2.13 of the Reply, the through reading the rejoinder from Mr Olsen, defendant says that no such conversation a document dated 21 August 1997. I continue with the plaintiff took place as alleged. now to read in the extract starting at 10.1. It 14.1 As to paragraph 2.14 of the Reply, the states: defendant does not know and cannot admit 10.1 As to paragraph 2.10 of the Reply, the that on 27 November 1996 Foley asked a defendant has no recollection of discussing number of questions as alleged. the EDS contract with Foley as alleged but 14.2 The defendant denies that any material used says that if it was discussed, no improper by Foley included information provided by exchange of information occurred. the defendant and further denies that he had 10.2 As to the letter of 14 October 1996 from provided information to Foley over a long Brown to Hansen & Yuncken, the defendant period of time. denies providing or acquiescing in the 14.3 The defendant does not know and cannot provision of that letter to Foley. admit the content of any discussion between 10.3 The defendant does not know and cannot Foley and the plaintiff, but says that the admit that Foley provided the document to defendant did nothing which entitled the the plaintiff. plaintiff to form a proper belief that he had provided or acquiesced in the provision of 10.4 The defendant does not know and cannot confidential information. admit that the plaintiff formed the view that the defendant was seeking to undermine 15.1 As to paragraph 2.15 of the Reply, the Brown’s leadership. defendant admits that on 27 November 1996 Brown lost the leadership of the Liberal 10.5 The plaintiff does not know and cannot party to the defendant and further admits admit that the plaintiff formed the view that that a short time later the defendant gave a the defendant was the source of the docu- news conference on the front steps of Parlia- ment. ment House. 10.6 The defendant says that he did nothing 15.2 The defendant admits that shortly thereafter which entitled the plaintiff to form a proper the plaintiff spoke with the defendant and belief that the defendant was the source of congratulated him on his election. the document or was seeking to undermine 15.3 The defendant denies that the plaintiff said Brown’s leadership. to the defendant words to the following 11.1 As to paragraph 2.11 of the Reply, the effect: ‘Don’t forget who put you there’ or defendant does not know and cannot admit that the defendant responded to the plaintiff that on or about 6 November 1996 Foley with a smile in response thereto. received an unmarked envelope containing 15.4 The defendant says that he did nothing cut up sections of what appeared to be a which entitled the plaintiff to form a proper Cabinet submission relating to the EDS belief that the defendant had been the North Terrace building. source of confidential information to the 11.2 The defendant does not know and cannot plaintiff or another Opposition Member of admit that Foley provided the subject docu- Parliament. ment to the plaintiff advising that the docu- 16. Save for the admissions contained herein, ment was from the defendant. the defendant joins issue with each and 11.3 The defendant says that he did not provide every allegation set out in the Reply. or acquiesce in the provision of the docu- That is the end of that rejoinder from Mr ment to Foley or the plaintiff, nor did the Olsen. There are two other documents that defendant do anything which could entitle were from the court which I do not think it is the plaintiff to form a proper belief that the necessary to read in, because they deal with defendant had provided or acquiesced in the provision of the document. the formal procedures of the court. Of course, Senator Macdonald, if you wish me to table 12.1 As to paragraph 2.12 of the Reply, the them, give me leave to do so and I will do so. defendant says that he attended an event at the Powerhouse at Findon associated with Senator Ian Macdonald—Oh, no, go on! Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 5999

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! the stupidity of the government whip and the Senator Macdonald, you are not in your seat. leadership of the Liberal Party in this Senate Senator SCHACHT—I also point out that in refusing to allow me to table the document. the document Senator Ferguson and Senator Ferris read from yesterday in the parliament In the coverage the Advertiser gave, they in defence of Mr Olsen is a press statement also pointed out my remarks on the conflict that Mr Olsen issued, not a court document. of interest—that is, the firm that advised the I was also refused leave to have that tabled Advertiser, Minter Ellison, is also the firm yesterday. The most extraordinary episode: advising the Premier. I put it correctly in the Liberal Party refused to allow a press context that they had received advice that statement from their own Premier of South there was no conflict of interest. That was Australia to be tabled in the parliament and reported accurately in the Advertiser this then they were forced in the adjournment morning. debate last night to stand up and read sections The only part of the documents that I put of it out to try to defend their Premier. That into Hansard yesterday that I was disappoint- was the stupidity of the Liberal Party. ed did not get a mention—and I hope it will Senator Ferris—On a point of order: get a mention in the future—is the extraordi- Senator Schacht has just referred to the nary defence of the Premier, saying, ‘I didn’t contribution I made in the adjournment debate give information to Mr Rann about the Catch last night and said that I read out a press Tim donation scandal.’ It was given to Mr release. In fact, I was reading out a declara- Rann by one Alex Kennedy, then a journalist tion by Mr Ian Kowalick. It was not a press with the Messenger Press in Adelaide, who release. had formerly been employed by former The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! Senator Olsen, who was employed for a short There is no point of order. time by Senator Ferguson, who then went and worked for the Messenger Press and spent Senator SCHACHT—I point out that that those two or three years dumping heaps of statement by Mr Kowalick was attached to vitriol on Mr Brown as the Premier. Within John Olsen’s press release and was issued a month or so of becoming the Premier of accordingly. I wish you would get your facts South Australia, John Olsen re-employed Alex right, Senator Ferris. Kennedy as his chief speech writer and senior The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Senator adviser. Schacht, would you like to address the chair, please? We are expected through Liberal denials to Senator SCHACHT—I put those remarks believe there is no division in the Liberal through you, Madam Deputy President. Party in South Australia and that Mr Olsen, Mr Brown and their supporters are not leaking The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Just put against each other. It is an extraordinary them to me, not through me. episode in South Australian political history, Senator SCHACHT—I also want to point even Australian political history, when the out that yesterday, when the government whip Liberal Party, the Liberal government, is refused me permission to table these docu- cannibalising itself the way it is at the mo- ments because of orders on high from some- ment. where else, he in fact did my side of the story immeasurable benefit. Why? As soon as he I conclude by saying, again, that I thank refused to allow it to be tabled, the press and Senator Calvert as government whip for everybody believed that there is a cover-up refusing me leave to table the documents. I going on here, and the reporting of the story think next time round he will get better in the Advertiser today, I have to say, exceed- advice. I would also like to say that, now this ed my expectations, particularly the headline issue is before the public in South Australia, ‘Howard covers up for Olsen’. What a great they will see what a dreadful, divided govern- headline that was, and it was all because of ment the Olsen government is. 6000 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997

Kimberley Region a number of these development projects may Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) benefit the state or Australia, how can we (7.27 p.m.)—This is my second adjournment assess them unless proper coordination, speech on this subject—that is, the Kimberley evaluation and assessment processes are region. On Monday night this week, I spoke conducted and, what is more, unless assess- about the growing sense of concern that this ments are done independently, not by the remarkable region is going to be caught up in proponents? a development frenzy which is misplaced and No overall sustainable development strategy which has the potential to result in us as a is being given serious consideration. For community losing far more than we gain. If example, while the major environmental costs currently proposed developments go ahead, and lessons of stage 1 of the Ord River dam the character and quality of the region will be and irrigation scheme have never been as- changed more rapidly and more permanently sessed, the state government is rushing to try than ever before. to open up a further 60,000 hectares of Ord Here is a short list of planned or proposed irrigated land in the east Kimberley. Our view developments: plans to greatly expand the is assessment first, project later. The state Ord River irrigation scheme; plans for the government’s view is project first, assessment damming of the Fitzroy River, the largest later. The fee takers and commission makers river in the Kimberley and one of Australia’s are once again leading this government in few remaining large wild rivers; plans for a Western Australia by the nose. major irrigation area and cotton growing The potential impacts of this project alone industry potentially covering some 200,000 on internationally important wetlands at the hectares in the Pindan plains south of mouth of the Ord, on riparian habitats, on Broome; the trucking of large volumes of ground water levels and salinity, on levels of lead-zinc concentrates through Derby to be pesticides and fertiliser in soils and waters, shipped out of King Sound; ongoing propo- are alarming. If this project continues to be sals for aquaculture and tourism developments pushed in the way it currently is, there is a around the coast; plans for a tidal power very real chance that future generations will station in mangrove creeks near Derby; and be left with long-term costs that rival the the possibility of several new mines in differ- problems now evident as a result of the ill- ent parts of the region, including the prospect considered agricultural expansionism in the of a bauxite mine on the acclaimed Mitchell south-west of Western Australia. At present Plateau. rates of government inaction and weakness, Apart from such particular projects, increas- much of the south-west is economically ing human access and activity across the doomed because of salinity. region will bring with it a range of other The efforts that are being made at a state severe environmental consequences. These in- level on the environment front, notably the clude damage caused by increasing numbers preparation of a regional conservation plan by of tourists visiting largely unmanaged and the WA Department of Conservation and fragile natural environments, wildlife smug- Land Management—also known to me as gling, widespread and frequent human lit Genghis CALM—and some limited localised bushfires and the introduction and spread of assessments by the WA Department of the exotic and feral pest species. Environment, are unlikely to amount to more To a large extent, the major development than tokenism. The current political climate, projects referred to are being considered in coupled with a dismal history of previous isolation. Open-ended ad hoc development government conservation efforts, and the seems to be the order of the day as govern- totally inadequate budgets of CALM and the ment and industry work hand in glove to DEP—the Department of Environmental ensure the go-ahead for projects which have Planning—all suggest a lack of any real enormous environmental, social and cultural commitment to environmental protection in implications for the region as a whole. While the Kimberley or any real commitment to Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 6001 economic sustainability that delivers long- understand that what we are talking about term benefit to the region. here is an appraisal of all these development The wider public meanwhile is barely aware schemes on a coordinated regional basis that the character of the Kimberley is in the before the projects go ahead. We are also process of being irretrievably changed over a talking about putting those appraisals in the matter of just a couple of decades. It is hands of independent and objective analysts difficult for people to comprehend environ- and not in the hands of those who will in fact mental fragility, but the Kimberley has many benefit from the very schemes that they are fragile areas, with conservation values of appraising and doing their feasibilities on. recognised national and international import- Senator Eggleston referred to the water of ance at stake. We have now reached a critical the Fitzroy as ‘not utilised’. The Fitzroy River point in the region’s history, a point at which ecosystem, from the headwaters to King a strong national interest must be taken. Sound, uses all the waters of the river. It is Without strong national interest—inside adapted to and relies on seasonal flooding and federal parliament and state parliament and the seasonal drying of the river. Harvesting outside in the community—a narrow, short- this water will necessarily have many impacts. term and ultimately self-defeating form of Some of those impacts might well be benefi- development looks likely to prevail, and the cial, but many may not. You cannot regard public interest will lose as a result. this as a waste area where the water is just I urge the Senate and the Commonwealth going to waste. It is very much part of the government to take active leadership in entire environment there. shaping the future of this remarkable and He also referred to—here we have the big beautiful region of Australia. By all means let numbers that the Liberals love—‘the food and us have development, but let it be carefully fibre crops to generate at least $900 million considered, consultative, well planned and a year’. I would have thought it would have with an agreed framework that takes proper been far better to have said that that would account of and meets the needs of the feed a certain number of people. But the real region’s environment, the Aboriginal tradi- value to the Liberals is the amount of money tional owners, the wider community, and involved, not the amount of value to human future generations. beings and whether it would generate food The first step must be to address the lack of and work. coordinated and objective policies and strat- We do not know how the market for cotton egies for ecologically and economically will continue, especially with more and more sustainable development. It must be to address producers coming into the market. We also do the lack of sound regional planning, and it not know whether other products proposed to must be to address environmental protection be grown could survive or thrive or be sale- and the lack of resources to implement envi- able and sold, or would be better alternatives ronmental protection. In the meantime, while to cotton. What we do know is that cotton has these fundamentals are put in place, we some serious environmental drawbacks, and should seek to have the types of large-scale there are many ways in which, in this envi- industrial developments discussed above put ronment, such crops may never succeed. So on hold. We can always come back to them when you talk about $900 million a year, it later if they are found to have merit, but we really is a thumb suck at this stage of evalu- will not be able to repair the damage they do ation. if they are rushed ahead with and later found Senator Eggleston went on and said that ‘no to have been big mistakes, as many Australian appraisal is being undertaken’. That is a big bang projects have been. deliberate misrepresentation of what I had Before I close, I would like to dwell briefly said. What I said was that no appraisal had on the response of Senator Eggleston to my been undertaken with regard to the whole first adjournment speech on this matter. He spectrum of Kimberley development propo- made a number of remarks. I think he has to sals, not just the Fitzroy project. I also said 6002 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 that the evaluation of the Fitzroy project, at why South Australians wanted a railway at this stage, was inadequate and elementary and all. A wacky comment if ever I heard one. needed to be far better done. Madam Deputy President, only this govern- He mentioned the WAI, the organisation ment has made a commitment, an undertak- that is to do this feasibility study. He said, ‘It ing, that we will put some money where their is WAI’s plan to harvest 25 per cent of the mouth was. The Prime Minister (Mr Howard) annual flow...’.Once a dam is built, even has put $100 million beside the commitments though WAI’s intention may be to use 25 per of the Northern Territory and South Austral- cent, other developers may well then come ian governments. So, 87 years after it was forward wanting a slice of the action. That first promised by the Fisher Labor govern- happened in the Murray-Darling scenario, ment, the Alice to Darwin railway can finally which is now one of acute degradation and be built. real danger to Australia’s breadbasket. Either I was privileged to be with friends and way, the percentage of annual flow that is to colleagues last weekend when the Prime be dealt with does not matter all that much, Minister stood with my own state Premier, because once dams are constructed, an irre- John Olsen, and the Northern Territory’s versible process of development and destruc- Chief Minister, Shane Stone, to become the tion can be set in motion. (Time expired) first government to specifically and financial- Alice Springs to Darwin Railway Line ly commit to this visionary national project. Senator FERRIS (South Australia) (7.37 By the end of the year 2002 our nation will p.m.)—When is a promise not a promise? be linked north to south and east to west by What does trust have to do with truth? In a railway traversing some of our most ancient May 1983 the then Prime Minister, Mr and starkly beautiful landscapes. This is the Hawke, promised the people of Australia that second key project stemming from the Feder- only his Labor government could be trusted ation Fund established to support major to build the Alice Springs to Darwin railway national objectives, providing much needed line. He made a promise, he gave an under- infrastructure and creating vital jobs for our taking, an assurance. He offered trust, a firm young people. belief, a confidence based on expectation. In There are obvious benefits: a rapid competi- fact, he laid his credibility on the line—the tive rail system, an important opportunity to railway line. Just 10 months later it became provide alternative transport for our develop- another of his broken promises. In March ing mineral and resource processing in the 1984 Prime Minister Hawke described the very rich Gawler Craton in my home state of railway as ‘totally unrealistic and unecon- South Australia. The rapidly expanding omic’. Of course, he was not the first Labor markets of Asia will have speedy access to Prime Minister to make promises and give the fresh produce of the farmers of South undertakings on this particular issue. More Australia. We will offer the opportunity to than half a century before, in 1910, Labor develop the world’s best practice rail link. Prime Minister Andrew Fisher made another Tonight, Madam Deputy President, I ask national promise. He even passed legislation you and all other members of this parliament to specifically fund the completion of the to pause for a moment to consider the small north-south rail link. Now we know the South Australian community of Port Augusta; answer: a promise is not a promise when it is a town ravaged by unemployment stemming made by the Labor Party. from the disgraceful mismanagement of The truth of this matter is that the Labor Australia National by the previous govern- Party was never really committed to the ment. Members of the Senate committee railway link. Former Senator Peter Walsh looking at the sale of AN heard quite a described it as a ‘waste of money’ and ‘a heartbreaking story in evidence during a visit white elephant’. Former Treasurer John to Port Augusta: breakdown of families, Dawkins called it ‘a crazy idea’. Even the domestic violence and financial tragedy dethroned emperor himself could not work out stemming from the tide of joblessness that Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 6003 washed over the railway workshops under the community pressure to form a parliamentary Labor Party’s reign. inquiry into the Sydney. Groups such as End Today the community has regained a little Secrecy on Sydney are calling for a full more hope, a slight sense of optimism flowing judicial inquiry and believe there has been an not only from this announcement but from the official retelling of the Sydney story which benefits arising from the sale of Australia hides controversial facts. There is a fear that National which was announced today. The the parliamentary inquiry may add to the news that AN will be sold for $95 million is retelling of the official story of the sinking of especially good news for the businesses and the HMAS Sydney in 1941. They will, obvi- the families of Port Augusta. Under the new ously, be looking at the events of the inquiry arrangements, Port Augusta will become a very carefully. principal engineering hub, and the existing workshops will expand to take in other The official versus the unofficial history is: work—a breath of life for a small country in the dark hours of 19-20 November 1941, town and its families after years of disgraceful Australian light cruiser HMAS Sydney, with neglect by the previous government. a total complement of 645 personnel, was lost Whyalla, also a city feeling the cold winds to enemy action in coastal waters off the of change and joblessness, stands to benefit north-west of Australia. The sinking, with an from the steel needed for this very important official claim of no survivors—not even a new national rail project. One hundred and floating corpse—has been listed as one of the fifty-five thousand tonnes of steel rail and strangest maritime mysteries on record. 3,500 tonnes of structural steel will be re- quired to build the Alice Springs-Darwin The End Secrecy on Sydney Group have a railway. As well, 9.2 million spring steel series of statutory declarations which I have fasteners and 2.3 million sleepers using circulated to the two whips. They are asking 170,000 tonnes of steel will be needed for the for a judicial inquiry. At this stage a project. parliamentary inquiry is, hopefully, coming The weekend announcement of this exciting up. It means that those people will be watch- new national project to link Australia’s north ing to make sure that that parliamentary and south has given a much needed boost to inquiry is full, open and frank, and that the my home state of South Australia. Our information is as independently available as government’s announcement at the weekend possible. I seek leave to table the documents. interestingly enough reflects the quite realistic They are: the notice of request to the Austral- view, I think, of the former Premier of New ian government for a judicial inquiry, and South Wales, Neville Wran. In 1995 he said: statutory declarations and other documents related to concerns for those relatives and .. the (Alice Springs/Darwin) railway will become friends who would like to see the inquiry economically viable early next century. being as full as possible. We have made the promise of $100 million to build this railway. It is a promise that we, Leave granted. unlike those opposite, plan to keep. HMAS Sydney Senator MARGETTS—I thank the Senate. Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) In 56 years there never has been an investiga- (7.44 p.m.)—Tonight I speak in relation to the tion into those 645 presumed dead, or into the important issue of the sinking of the HMAS circumstances claimed to have led to those Sydney on 19-20 November 1941. This has deaths. The Australian community has never been one of the most intriguing unsolved been comfortable with the so-called enemy mysteries of World War II. But thanks to the account, to the extent that yesterday the work of the families and friends of the 645 government called for an inquiry. naval personnel whose lives were lost, we now have the government responding to Senate adjourned at 7.47 p.m. 6004 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997

DOCUMENTS Legal and Constitutional Legislation Commit- tee—Report—Role and function of the Adminis- Tabling trative Review Council. (Senator O’Chee) The following documents were tabled by National Capital and External Territories—Joint the Clerk: Standing Committee—Report—A right to protest. (Senator McGauran) Australian Bureau of Statistics Act—Proposal for the collection of information—Proposal No. 13 Appropriations and Staffing—Standing Commit- of 1997. tee—Report—Inquiry into the proposed amalga- mation of the parliamentary departments. (Sena- Higher Education Funding Act 1988—Deter- tor Faulkner) mination under section— Victorian Casino Inquiry—Select Committee— 15—T18-97. Report—Compelling evidence—Government 20A—T17-97. response. (Senator Bourne) Social Security Act—Social Security Delegation Native Title and the Aboriginal and Torres Strait References Direction 1997. Islander Land Fund—Joint Statutory Commit- Student and Youth Assistance Act—Student and tee—Ninth report—The National Native Title Youth Assistance Delegation References Direc- Tribunal annual report 1995-96. (Senator tion 1997. O’Chee) Telecommunications Act—Industry Development Native Title and the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Plan Exemption Declaration 1997. Islander Land Fund—Joint Statutory Commit- tee—Eighth report—Annual reports for 1995-96 prepared pursuant to Part 4A of the Aboriginal Consideration and Torres Strait Islander Commission Act 1989. Question resolved in the affirmative on the (Senator O’Chee) following orders of the day without further Public Accounts—Joint Statutory Committee— debate during consideration of committee Reports—Finance Minutes on reports—(Senator reports and government responses. O’Chee) Community Standards Relevant to the Supply of 338—Accrual accounting: A cultural change Services Utilising Electronic Technologies— 341—Financial reporting for the Common- Select Committee—Report—Regulation of wealth: Towards greater transparency and computer on-line services: Part 3. (Senator accountability Tierney) 342—The administration of specific purpose Regulations and Ordinances—Standing Commit- payments: A focus on outcomes tee—104th report—Annual report 1995-96. 344—A continuing focus on accountability: (Senator Calvert) Review of Auditor-General’s reports 1993-94 Treaties—Joint Standing Committee—Eighth and 1994-95 report. (Senator Calvert) 345—An advisory report on the Income Tax Community Affairs References Committee— Assessment Bill 1996, the Income Tax (Tran- Report—Funding of aged care institutions. sitional Provisions) Bill 1996 and the Income (Senator Bishop) Tax (Consequential Amendments) Bill 1996. Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 6005

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE

The following answers to questions were circulated:

Human Rights and Equal Opportunity initiated by the individual respondent and not the Commonwealth; Commission: Appeals (b) Federal Court proceedings—these were (Question No. 576) initiated by a Commonwealth agency (and Senator Murray asked the Minister repre- the principal executive of that agency). senting the Attorney-General, upon notice, on (ii) Commonwealth Minister for Health v Sir 7 May 1997: Ronald Wilson, Jenny Morgan & Elizabeth Hast- ings constituting the HREOC, Dr B Siddiqui & (1) Since the enactment of the Human Rights and Australian Medical Council. There were two Equal Opportunity Act 1986, Racial Discrimination matters which were related to this complaint: Act 1975, Sex Discrimination Act 1984 and the Disability Discrimination Act 1992, how many (a) Federal Court proceedings commenced decisions of the Human Rights and Equal Oppor- by the Commonwealth and the AMC (Full tunity Commission (HREOC) have been appealed Court hearing); by the Commonwealth. (b) AAT proceedings by the Commonwealth (2) Which cases have been appealed. challenging the award of damages awarded by the Commission. (3) When were each of these cases appealed. (iii) Commonwealth v HREOC & Aufgang. (4) What proportion of the total cases appealed from the decisions of HREOC have been appealed Under the Human Rights and Equal Opportunity by: (a) the Commonwealth; and (b) complainants. Commission Act 1984 (5) Of the cases appealed by the Commonwealth, (i) Secretary, Department of Defence v what did each of these appeals cost the Common- HREOC & Messrs Burgess Collins & Lipping. wealth. (ii) Commonwealth of Australia v HREOC & (6) If the appeals had been conducted by private Roger Muller. practitioners, how much would these appeals have (iii) Commonwealth of Australia v HREOC & cost using the relevant: (a) scale costs at the time; Jeff Kellan. and (b) average commercial rates at the time. Under the Sex Discrimination Act 1984 (7) (a) What is the Commonwealth’s position, if (i) Department of Defence v HREOC, Michael any, on appeals from HREOC; and (b) can a copy Dopking & Lance Thomas. There were a series of of any relevant statements or guidelines be provid- appeals which related to this complaint: ed. (a) High Court special leave proceedings; Senator Ellison—The Attorney-General has (b) Federal Court proceedings commenced provided the following answer to the honour- by the Commonwealth (Department of able senator’s question: Defence), including:—one single judge (1) I am advised by the Human Rights and Equal hearing—two Full Court hearings. Opportunity Commission that it has been able to (ii) Commonwealth of Australia v HREOC, identify eleven matters (which have been confirmed Professor Hilary Charlesworth, Cheri Modistach- by the Department) where decisions of the Com- Barnett & Frank Southwell. mission have been appealed by the Commonwealth (iii) Commonwealth and Minister for Health (2) I am advised by the Human Rights and Equal v Morrish & Ors. Opportunity Commission that these matters are the following: (iv) Air Services Australia v Human Rights Under the Racial Discrimination Act 1975 and Equal Opportunity Commission & Ors. (i) Brandy v ATSIC, HREOC & Anor. The Under the Disability Discrimination Act 1992 Commission is aware that there were at least two (i) Commonwealth v HREOC & X. There have separate proceedings relating to this complaint: been two appeals in this matter: first, before a (a) High Court proceedings (challenging the single judge and, secondly before a Full Court. constitutionality of the enforcement provi- (3) I am advised by the Human Rights and Equal sions in the RDA)—however, these were Opportunity Commission that the following list 6006 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 identifies the year of the first appeal from the the costs and disbursements incurred in responding decision of the Commission. to an appeal by a party other than the Common- (1) Brandy v ATSIC, HREOC & Ors matters: wealth where the appeal arises out of the 1994 Commonwealth’s initial application for a review of a HREOC decision. For example, where the (2) Cth Minister for Health v Sir Ronald Commonwealth is successful in its application to Wilson, Jenny Morgan & Elizabeth Hastings the Federal Court for review, and the unsuccessful constituting the HREOC, Dr B Siddiqui & Austral- party appeals to the Full Federal Court. The ian Medical Council: 1995 amounts below do not include the cost of policy (3) Cth v HREOC & Aufgang: 1997 work, for example considering the implications of (4) Secretary, Department of Defence v decisions. Also not included are the additional costs HREOC & Messrs Burgess Collins & Lipping: in the Brandy case of the Commonwealth’s inter- 1996 vention? that not being an appeal or application for judicial review. (5) Commonwealth of Australia v HREOC & Roger Muller: 1996 (1) Brandy—v- ATSIC, HREOC & Ors matters: 1994 (6) Commonwealth of Australia v HREOC & Jeff Kelland: 1996 Total cost of representing ATSIC and its CEO, Mr Gray: $39,830. Cost of reimbursing Mr (7) Department of Defence v HREOC, Michael Bell for legal expenses as this matter was Dopkin & Lance Thomas: 1993 regarded as a test case: $4,900.00. (8) Commonwealth of Australia v HREOC, (2) Cth Minister for Health v Sir Ronald Professor Hilary Charlseworth, Cheri Modistch- Wilson, Jenny Morgan & Elizabeth Hastings Barnett s Frank Southwell: 1996 constituting the HREOC, Dr B Siddiqui & Austral- (9) Commonwealth v HREOC & X: 1995 ian Medical Council: 1995 (10) Commonwealth and Minister for Health Total cost: $24,764.90. v Morrish & Ors: 1997 (3) Cth v HREOC & Aufgang: 1997 (11) Air Services Australia v Human Rights Cost to date: approximately $12,367.00 and Equal Opportunity Commission & Ors: 1996 (continuing). (4) I am advised by the Human Rights and Equal (4) Secretary, Department of Defence v Opportunity Commission that since July 1985 there HREOC & Messrs Burgess Collins & Lisping: have been about 44 appeals commenced against 1996 decisions (including in respect of interlocutory matters) of the Commission. Only some of these Cost to date: approximately $4.970.00 (con- appeals have resulted in decisions (the rest being tinuing). settled or withdrawn). Thus, expressed as an (5) Commonwealth of Australia v HREOC & approximate percentage, the proportion of these 44 Roger Muller: 1996 appeals that have been commenced by complainants Cost to date: $14,035.54 (continuing). and Commonwealth agencies is as follows: (6) Commonwealth of Australia v HREOC & . the proportion of appeals commenced by the Jeff Kelland: 1996 Commonwealth as a percentage of all appeals in cases decided by the Commission: 27% Cost to date: $3,494.00 (continuing). . the proportion of appeals commenced by (7) Department of Defence v HREOC, Michael complainants as a percentage of all appeals in Dopking & Lance Thomas: 1993 cases decided by the Commission (this in- Total cost: $107,162.23. cludes an estimate of the number of actions that complainants have had to take in the (8) Commonwealth of Australia v HREOC, Federal Court in order to enforce the decision Professor Hilary Charlesworth, Cheri Modistach- of the Commission): 55% Barnett & Frank Southwell: 1996 . the proportion of appeals commenced by non- Total cost: $9979. Commonwealth respondents as a percentage of (9) Commonwealth v HREOC & X: 1995 all appeals in cases decided by the Commis- Cost to date: $68,253.98. sion: 18% (10) Commonwealth and Minister for Health (5) The cost to the Commonwealth of each of the v Morrish & Ors: 1997 proceedings instituted by the Commonwealth from decisions of HREOC is set out below. The amounts Cost to date: $5,768.80 (continuing). set out are the costs and disbursements incurred in (11) Air Services Australia v Human Rights the actual carriage of the litigation. They include and Equal Opportunity Commission & Ors: 1996. Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 6007

I am advised that Air Services Australia is a (4) The figure of 3000 in the answer to question Government Business Enterprise and receives no on notice no. 437 refers to the projected additional funding from consolidated revenue. There is no enrolments in non-government schools associated record of the Australian Government Solicitor with the abolition of the New Schools Policy. The acting for Air Services Australia in this matter. enrolment figures for 1997 shown in Table 3 of the Therefore the cost to date is nil. Department’s submission incorporate the projected (6) (a) Court scale costs apply equally to AGS 3000 additional enrolments in non-government and private solicitors. schools. (b) AGS fees are competitive with private sector Native Title lawyers’ fees. (Question No. 648) (7) The Commonwealth appeals from or seeks judicial review of HREOC decisions where the Senator Brown asked the Minister for the Commonwealth considers that there are legal and Environment, upon notice, on 20 June 1997: policy grounds justifying such proceedings, having (1) In what ways would implementation of the regard to the circumstances of each case. There are Wik ‘10-point’ plan alter the capacity of govern- no specific guidelines. ments to influence environmental management of leasehold lands. School Closures: Victoria (2) What additional activities could pastoralists (Question No. 630) undertake on leasehold land under the lease upgrad- ing proposed in the Wik 10-point plan Senator Ellison asked the Minister repre- senting the Minister for Schools, Vocational (3) What reduction in public rights to access information about environmental values or to Education and Training, upon notice, on 18 participate in land management decisions would June 1997: result if the Wik 10-point plan were implemented. With reference to table 3 of the department’s (4) If the Wik 10-point plan were implemented, submission to the Senate Employment, Education would leaseholders whose tenure was upgraded as and Training Legislation Committee’s inquiry into a result be able to apply for Natural Heritage Trust the States Grants (Primary and Secondary Educa- Funding. tion Assistance) Bill 1996 and the answer to (4) of (5) Is there any documented evidence about question on notice no. 437 (Official Senate Hans- whether environmental outcomes, for example, rate ard, 16 June 1997, p.4279) in which the Minister of clearing of native vegetation, are better or worse said the projected additional enrolment increases in on freehold compared with leasehold land. non-government schools were estimated at 3000 in the first year, not 6000: (6) Will the Minister require an environmental impact statement to be prepared for the Wik 10- (1) In October 1996, was the projected decrease point plan. in government school enrolments, from 1996 to 1997, 5979 students. Senator Hill—The answer to the honour- (2) In October 1996, was the projected increase able senator’s question is as follows: in non-government school enrolments, from 1996 (1) Under the 10-point plan, existing Common- to 1997, 19789 students. wealth, state and territory legislation for land, (3) Have these projections changed since the heritage, land use planning and environmental department lodged its submission referred to above; management will remain in place and must still be if so, how. complied with. The capacity of governments regarding environmental management of leasehold (4) What does the figure of 3 000 mentioned in land is unaffected. The Prime Minister has made it the answer to question on notice No. 437 refer to clear there will be no blanket freeholding of and where is it shown on table 3 of the pastoral leases at taxpayer expense. department’s submission. (2) The 10-point plan does not propose blanket Senator Vanstone—The Minister for upgrading of pastoral lease titles. Under the exist- Schools, Vocational Education and Training ing Native Title Act 1994, states and territories can has provided the following answer to the already acquire native title rights if they do it through non-discriminatory means. This will honourable senator’s question: continue. The Commonwealth understands that state (1) Yes. and territory governments do not intend to under- take large scale upgrading of pastoral leases to (2) Yes. freehold through the acquisition of native title (3) No. rights. The Prime Minister has said however, that 6008 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997 the Commonwealth financial assistance offer will (2) Will the Disability Commissioner be replaced require any lessee gaining an additional benefit to when the present commissioner’s term expires in pay a proper financial contribution. July 1997; if so, will the responsibilities of that Under the 10-point plan, holders of pastoral office remain the same; if not, what changes are leases would be unimpeded by native title in proposed. carrying out primary production activities that are (3) With reference to the Attorney-General’s permitted under the terms of their leases, or by press release of 15 May 1997, which stated that government permit or legislation. Grants of addi- HREOC had received a 500 per cent increase in tional primary production rights on pastoral leases funding since 1988: (a) what additional responsi- will not extinguish native title. Activities that are bilities have been given to HREOC since 1988; and associated or incidental to primary production, (b) what was the budgeted cost of each of these including farmstay tourism would be permissible responsibilities. provided that the dominant land use remains (4) With reference to the fact that the Attorney- primary production and that such activities are General refers to the changes to HREOC as reflect- permitted under the terms of the lease. As noted in ing ‘difficult financial times’: why are the proposed the response to part (1) above, such activities by cuts so much in excess of the 4 per cent efficiency pastoral leaseholders remain subject to state and dividend experienced elsewhere in the public territory environmental land management and other sector. laws and regulations. (5) (a) How do the proposed cuts intend to re- (3) The 10-point plan does not affect public form HREOC functions, given that there is cur- access to information or the ability to participate in rently at least a 6 month wait for the commence- land management decisions. Under alternative state ment of conciliation of cases; and (b) how will the or territory-based regimes that might be established, cuts improve the lives of people with disabilities. native title holders will have the same procedural (6) Has Australia assumed a number of interna- rights as the pastoral leaseholder in relation to tional responsibilities and obligations with respect compulsory acquisition and development on to human rights and equal opportunity; if so, please pastoral lease land. provide a list of these obligations and explanations (4) The 10-point plan does not affect the admin- as to how these obligations are to be met given the istration of Natural Heritage Trust funding. proposed Government decision to drastically cut funds to HREOC. (5) My Department is not aware of any research that compares native vegetation clearing rates Senator Chris Evans—The Attorney- between comparable properties with differing tenure General has provided the following answer to arrangements. In the absence of such comparative the honourable senator’s question: information, it is not possible to draw conclusions about the effect of particular tenure systems on (1) (a) In the 1996/97 Budget a $1.5 million these types of environmental outcomes. saving to the HREOC budget was announced. The reduction applies as a result of the proposal, (6) The action Minister for this purpose is the contained in the Human Rights Legislation Amend- Prime Minister. He has advised me that, after con- ment Bill 1996, to transfer the HREOC hearing sidering advice, he has decided not to designate a function to the Federal Court. As that Bill is still proponent under the Administrative Procedures ap- awaiting passage, the Department of Finance has proved under the Environment Protection (Impact agreed that the reduction in funding will not apply of Proposals) Act 1974 in relation to the decision until the function has been transferred to the to proceed with legislation to implement the 10- Federal Court. point plan. The reduction to HREOC funding in this fi- Human Rights and Equal Opportunity nancial year (1997/98) is, in real terms, only the 4% efficiency saving applicable to all agencies Commission: Funding within the Attorney-General’s portfolio. (Question No. 654) A further reduction in HREOC funding in subsequent years (1998/99 and beyond) amounts in Senator Neal asked the Minister represent- real terms to approximately a 27% reduction—not ing the Attorney-General, upon notice, on 20 the 40% or more some people have claimed. June 1997 However, this reduction must be seen in light of (1) (a) What cuts are being proposed for the the fourfold increase in HREOC funding over the Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission past nine years. (HREOC) between now and 30 June 1999; and (b) (b) In evidence to the Senate Estimates Commit- what is the estimated impact on staff, programs and tee on 10 June 1997, the Commission indicated that services. it will refocus its activities and concentrate re- Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 6009 sources on its main statutory functions, and in cedural provisions. This regime has then been particular, on complaint handling. While the placed in the one Act with the President responsible Commission has indicated that it expects to lose up for all complaint handling. Centralising responsi- to one third of its staff, the bulk of this loss will bility will assist in promoting consistent and come from areas other than complaint handling. coordinated practices for all complaints. (2) The present Disability Discrimination The Bill also vests responsibility for the adminis- Commissioner’s term does not expire in July 1997, tration of the Commission in the office of the but in December 1997. There is no suggestion that President. Those changes are designed to clarify the the current term of office of the Disability Discri- lines of responsibility and should lead to more mination Commissioner is under threat and no deci- consistent and coordinated management practices. sion has been made on a replacement for the The Commissioners, freed from their role in Commissioner when her term expires at the end of conciliation and complaint handling, will continue this year. to undertake, on behalf of the Commission, a range As Senator Neal would be aware, the functions of important functions including: of the Human Rights, Race, Sex and Disability - the development of standards, guidelines and Discrimination Commissioners will be changed by action plans; the Human Rights Legislation Amendment Bill which is currently before the Senate. The major - the preparation and undertaking of educational change involves the transfer of the complaint programs; conciliation function to the President, and the - undertaking research; examining enactments; complaint hearing function to the Federal Court, the - reporting to the Minister; and latter change being brought about by the High Court’s decision in the Brandy case. - applying as an amicus curiae or intervener, with leave of the Court, in proceedings relat- The Attorney-General has indicated that the ing to discrimination. Government will be considering further changes to the structure of HREOC. However, no decision has As indicated in the answer to question 1 above, been made by the Government in this respect. the proposed cuts do not apply to any particular Australians with disabilities can be assured that any area in the Commission and are not intended to changes to the structure to HREOC will not have a particular impact on any one group. The diminish the capacity of HREOC to uphold the reduction in funding will mean that the Commis- principles of the Disability Discrimination Act. sion will need to refocus its activities and concen- trate resources on its main statutory functions, and (3) Major ongoing additions to the HREOC in particular, on complaint handling. jurisdiction since 1988 include: (6) Yes, Australia has assumed responsibilities - Administration of the Privacy Act—0.60 with respect to human rights and equal opportunity million under a number of international instruments. The - Establishment of the Aboriginal And Torres list below indicates the major Commonwealth Strait Islander Social Justice Commissioner human rights Acts and related international instru- and Unit—0.38 million ments. - Administration of the Disability Discrimination Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission Act—0.93 million Act 1986 - Administration of amendments to the Sex Convention Concerning Discrimination in Respect Discrimination Act—0.88 million of Employment and Occupation, (ILO 111). - Administration of amendments to the Privacy International Covenant on Civil and Political Act—2.19 million Rights. (4) The government has been forced to reconsid- The Convention and Declaration on the Rights of er expenditure in a wide range of areas. In deter- the Child. mining expenditure reductions, the Government has Declaration on the Elimination of All Forms of made appropriate judgments in relation to capacity Intolerance and of Discrimination to bear reductions and priorities. Based on Religion or Belief. (5) It is not the proposed cuts, but the legislation Declaration on the Rights of Disabled Persons. currently before the Senate that will reform the structure and functions of the Commission. Declaration on the Rights of Mentally Retarded Persons. The Human Rights Legislation Amendment Bill will consolidate the divergent complaint handling Racial Discrimination Act 1975 regimes in various Acts into one simplified scheme Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of with common definitions and best practice pro- Racial Discrimination. 6010 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997

Sex Discrimination Act 1984 any expansion of that industry, do not cause Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of damage to the Shark Bay World Heritage Area. Discrimination Against Women. Senator Hill—The answer to the honour- The complaint based regimes established under able senator’s question is as follows: each of the Commonwealth anti-discrimination Acts will continue to apply to complaints alleging a (1) On 19 December 1996, I wrote to the then breach of human rights or discrimination. The WA Minister for Environment, the Hon Peter Foss changes proposed in the Human Rights Legislation QC MLC, seeking his assurance that the environ- Amendment Bill, including the creation of a mental assessment processes undertaken by the uniform regime for discrimination complaints and State had adequately addressed potential off-site the centralisation of responsibility for complaint impacts of the proposal, and that there would be no handling in the office of the President will promote significant impact on the outstanding universal more consistent and coordinated practices and values of the Shark Bay World Heritage Property. therefore assist in fulfilling Australia’s responsibili- On 20 March 1997, I received a letter from the ties under these instruments. current WA Minister for Environment, Mrs Cheryl Edwardes, assuring me that any potential impacts Shark Bay World Heritage Area on the World Heritage values of the Shark Bay (Question No. 677) World Heritage Property had been identified and would be minimised by ensuring that the project is Senator Murray asked the Minister for the carried out in accordance with environmental Environment, upon notice, on 27 June 1997: conditions set out for the proposal in August 1996. (1) What impact would the proposed expansion I am satisfied that there will be no significant of the Shark Bay Salt Joint Venture works in impact on the outstanding universal values of the Useless Inlet on the edge of the Shark Bay World Shark Bay World Heritage Property. Heritage Area have on the values of the World (2) The proposed expansion of the Shark Bay Heritage Area. Joint Venture works, if approved, will be approxi- (2) How close will the expanded works, if mately 300 metres from the boundary of the Shark approved, be to the World Heritage Area. Bay World Heritage Property. (3) What Commonwealth environmental impact (3) There is no involvement at the Common- assessments of the proposed expansion of the Shark wealth level to trigger the application of the Bay Joint Venture works have been conducted. Commonwealth Environment Protection (Impact of (4) Is the Minister aware of a scientific report Proposals) Act 1974 (‘the Act’). prepared for the Denham Fisherman’s Association (4—5) Yes. I have been informed that the issues which indicates that the expanded salt works will raised in the report were investigated during the have a range of serious impacts on the values of environmental assessment process, and were ad- the World Heritage Area, including on the area’s dressed in the Environment Management Plan for rich diversity of marine fauna. the construction phase of the project. They will also (5) What is the Minister’s response to the report, be addressed in the Environmental Management written by Dr Shelley Burgin. Plans for the operational and decommissioning stages of the project. (6) Is it a fact that a recent survey of the World Heritage marine environment immediately adjacent (6) It is my understanding that, in August 1996, to the salt project area, believed to have been the WA Department of Conservation and Land undertaken by the Department of Conservation and Management (‘CALM’) conducted a marine Land Management and utilising the Denham-based monitoring site selection field trip in the Shark Bay charger boat James Shearer, identified unique coral Joint Venture works lease area. One coral patch species or formations; if so, what efforts will be was recorded (through drop-down video recorder made to investigate whether such unique coral footage) in waters transitional between oceanic sa- species or formations may occur within the expand- linity (35-40 parts per thousand) and metahaline ed salt lease area. salinity (40-56 parts per thousand). (7) When are the construction works for the ex- CALM has advised my department that the coral panded salt project due to commence. identified were not unique species or formations. (8) Is it a fact that more than 35 kilometres of (7) The WA Department of Conservation and coastline within or adjacent to the Shark Bay World Land Management has informed my department Heritage Area is now committed to salt industry that the construction works are likely to commence leases and works. in August 1997. (9) What measures will the Minister be taking to (8) The Shark Bay Joint Venture works includes ensure that the existing salt industry operations, and approximately 35 kilometres of coastline. All of Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 6011 this coastline was excluded from the Shark Bay . The name and location of each school in each World Heritage Property. funding category; and (9) As noted above, I have a responsibility to . Identification of non-systemic and systemic ensure that impacts of activities adjacent to the schools. Shark Bay World Heritage Property (‘the Property’) Information relating to 1997 is under preparation do not extend into the Property and pose a threat and will be gazetted later in the year in accordance to its outstanding universal value. I take this with Section 90 of the States Grants (Primary and responsibility seriously and have sought assurances Secondary Education Assistance) Act 1996 (the from the Western Australian Government that these Act). potential impacts have been adequately addressed. In addition these issues will be addressed by the (3) A full report of information relating to the Commonwealth through its involvement in the amount of Commonwealth general recurrent development and implementation of management funding provided to schools in each funding plans for the Property. category is, also required under Section 90 of the Act, to be laid before each House of Parliament by School Funding the Minister as soon as practicable after 30 June following a program year. Information on the total (Question No. 686) schools in each funding category and the amounts Senator Carr asked the Minister represent- of Commonwealth general recurrent grant funding ing the Minister for Schools, Vocational provided to each for 1996, is, therefore, prepared for presentation to the parliament in the States Education and Training, upon notice, on 4 Grants (Primary and Secondary Education Assist- July 1997: ance) Act 1992 Report on financial assistance (1) How many non-government schools were/are granted to each State in respect of 1996. receiving Commonwealth general recurrent grants The amount of Commonwealth general recurrent in: (a) 1996; and (b) 1997. funding provided to schools in each funding (2) What is the breakdown of these numbers, for category for 1997 will subsequently be reported to both 1996 and 1997, by funding category 1—12. the Parliament after 30 June 1998. (3) For the total schools in each funding catego- (6) Thirty seven non-government schools ry, what is the amount of Commonwealth general changed funding category with effect from 1 recurrent funding provided to each, that is, in each January 1997 following the abolition of the New funding category for: (a) 1996; and (b) 1997. Schools Policy and removal of the Category 6 funding limitation. (4) What are the names and locations of each of the schools in each funding category. Minister for Primary Industries and (5) (a) Which of these schools are parts of a sys- Energy: Media Monitoring Services tem; and (b) what is the name of those systems. (Question No. 708) (6) How many schools were moved to a higher funding category as a result of the abolition of the Senator Robert Ray asked the Minister for New Schools Policy. Primary Industries and Energy, upon notice, Senator Vanstone—The Minister for on 28 July 1997: Schools, Vocational Education and Training (1) What was the total cost of media monitoring has provided the following answer to the services, including press clippings, electronic media transcripts etcetera, provided to the Minister’s honourable senator’s question: office in the 1996-97 financial year. Questions (1), (2), (4) and (5). (2) Which agency or agencies provided these Attached is a copy of the Commonwealth of services. Australia Gazette dated 6 September 1996 which (3) What was the total cost of media monitoring lists non-government, non-systemic and systemic services, including press clippings, electronic media schools for which Commonwealth funding was transcripts etcetera, provided to the department and provided under subsections 17(4) and 19(4) respec- its agencies in the 1996-97 financial year. tively of the States Grants (Primary and Secondary Education Assistance) Act 1992, which contains the (4) Which agency or agencies provided these following information relating to the above ques- services. tions: Senator Parer—The Minister for Primary . A listing of all non-government schools in Industries and Energy has provided the receipt of funding; following answer to the honourable senator’s . A breakdown by funding categories 1—12; question: 6012 SENATE Thursday, 28 August 1997

(1) The total cost of media monitoring services, have been incurred by line-areas ordering tran- including press clippings, electronic media tran- scripts of radio and television interviews. However, scripts provided to the Minister’s office in the as these have been done on a one-off basis and 1996-97 financial year is $8556. listed under a variety of costing codes it would be (2) Media Monitors ACT Pty Ltd was the very difficult and time consuming to get an accu- provider of these services. rate figure for all these requests. An additional $8,000—10,000 would be a realistic estimate, based (3) The total cost of media monitoring services on the frequency of requests. for the Department of Primary Industries and Energy and its agencies in the 1996-97 financial (4) Media Monitors ACT Pty Ltd was the year was approximately $36,563. Additional costs provider of these services. Thursday, 28 August 1997 SENATE 6013