Friday Volume 532 9 September 2011 No. 197 HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) Friday 9 September 2011 £5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2011 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 649 9 SEPTEMBER 2011 650 House of Commons Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill Consideration of Bill, not amended in the Public Bill Committee Friday 9 September 2011 Clause 1 The House met at half-past Nine o’clock DUTIES OF THE SECRETARY OF STATE PRAYERS 9.34 pm The Chairman of Ways and Means took the Chair as Deputy Speaker (Standing Order No. 3). Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): I beg to move amendment 3, page 1, line 2, leave out ‘publishing Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): I beg to draft’ and insert ‘presenting’. move, That the House sit in private. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With this it Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 163), and will be convenient to discuss the following: negatived. Amendment 6, page 1, leave out lines 7 to 10 and insert ‘“legislation” means primary legislation, secondary legislation or amendments to primary legislation’. Amendment 8, page 1, line 16, leave out ‘draft’. Amendment 14, title, line 1, leave out ‘preparing draft legislation for publication’ and insert ‘presenting legislation’. Helen Goodman: I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak on this Bill and to the amendments standing in my name and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty). The long list of amendments that we have tabled demonstrates that this is an extremely badly drafted piece of legislation. As I am sure Government Members know, Her Majesty’s Opposition oppose the Bill. It is ill-conceived, badly drafted and full of technical problems, and we do not accept its underlying principles. For a start, it does not make sense to look at draft legislation only. Most Bills do not appear in draft at all, so this would catch only a tiny number of the Bills that the House considers. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): The hon. Lady and her hon. Friend tabled 14 amendments and one new clause, only four of which have been selected for debate. Does that not suggest that her amendments and new clause were badly drafted as well? Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman has been here long enough to know that we do not discuss the selection of amendments. Helen Goodman: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I would like to point out some of the problems with what has been suggested by the hon. Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin), whose Bill this is. Every piece of legislation has a territorial extent clause at its end. Let us consider the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill, which is currently in Committee. The hon. Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) has been chairing some of its sittings, so he knows what I am talking about. Clause 117 states that the Bill, as a whole, applies to England and Wales, and then explains which clauses apply more widely. There is no lack of clarity about the legal status of Bills before the House. Clearly, the hon. Lady’s underlying concern is that people are taking views on legislation that affects parts of the United Kingdom beyond those in which their 651 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill9 SEPTEMBER 2011 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill 652 [Helen Goodman] Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): So in reality these amendments are not really important in the hon. constituencies are located. If that is her concern, she Lady’s estimation; she is simply intent on wrecking this should have presented a Bill making that case. However, Bill by any means possible. That is the reality, is it not? she has presented a different and flawed Bill. Helen Goodman: I am not intent on wrecking the Bill; Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend I am intent on opposing it, which is not quite the same agree that the Bill undermines the basic principle that thing. all Members are equal? Helen Goodman: Of course, my hon. Friend is absolutely Mr Leigh: Perhaps I used the wrong words. What the correct. hon. Lady is determined to do is stop this Bill making any further progress. That is the reality and she might as Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): The well be honest about it. hon. Lady will be aware that the procedure for Scottish Bills, as set out in Standing Order 97, requires the Helen Goodman rose— Speaker to issue a certificate stating that a measure is predominantly Scottish, after which it can go to the Grand Committee. It would be possible to do the same Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Lady is being for England. Surely it would be worth printing a complex tempted all the time. She must not give in to that Bill in draft—so that it can be published and people can temptation. Let us stick to the amendments. look at it—because, if there were territorial issues on the margins, it would provide an opportunity to consider Helen Goodman: Let me turn to the parts of the Bill them fully before the Speaker issued his certificate. Is that relate to the financial implications, which we also the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for West looked at in— Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin) not a valuable addition to how we have dealt with such matter traditionally? Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Lady must not make a Second Reading speech. Let us deal with the Helen Goodman: As the hon. Gentleman says, amendments that are before us. arrangements are in place for legislation that takes effect predominantly in Scotland. However, the Government seem to be rushing legislation through so fast that it is Helen Goodman: One of the problems with looking at quite possible that the Speaker and his offices might not draft legislation rather than legislation in its final form have time to take all these complex matters into account. is that it is not possible at that stage to say what the That is a problem with the way this Government are financial implications across the United Kingdom might ramming through legislation on the NHS and, if I be. The Government would be forced not simply to might say so, this Legal Aid— identify the territorial extent of a Bill, as they do currently, but to look at the differential impact of Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. We clauses that apply across the United Kingdom. For are meant to be discussing the amendments, but we are example, some legislation could be applicable throughout getting drawn elsewhere by certain Members. I am sure the UK but have a greater effect in some places than in that, with the hon. Lady’s experience, we can stick to others. Let us take social security as an example. If the amendments. unemployment is higher in Wales than in England and changes are made to the rate of jobseeker’s allowance, Helen Goodman: I stand corrected. I am sorry, I was the impact in Wales will obviously be different from the seduced by the hon. Member for North East Hertfordshire impact in England. I am sure that that is not what the (Oliver Heald). hon. Lady intends. Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ Co-op): On the issues raised by the amendment, my Oliver Heald: But social security is a UK-wide hon. Friend said a minute ago that she suspected that competence. It is nothing to do with just England, the real motivation behind the Bill was not just to Wales or Scotland; it applies all over the country. specify whether a Bill applied to England, Scotland or Northern Ireland only, but to lead to a situation where Helen Goodman: The hon. Gentleman makes my certain MPs could not vote on those Bills. If she has any exact point, but unfortunately that is not the way the doubt about that, the BBC reported yesterday that the Bill is drafted. That is one of its faults. hon. Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin) “hoped that this would allow it to become accepted practice that Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish MPs would not vote on England-only bills.” That is a very interesting point, but what exactly does it have to do with the amendments? If that is what she really wants, would it not be better to have a Bill to that effect for us to discuss and debate, rather than one that tries to introduce such a measure Helen Goodman: What I am trying to do is demonstrate through the back door? that the Bill is not well drafted, and the amendments that we have tabled do just that. I fear that the object of Helen Goodman: That is exactly right. This is a this Bill is really a political object—that what the hon. campaigning Bill; it is not a serious Bill. The hon. Lady Member for West Worcestershire is doing is disingenuous cannot possibly expect the House to support this ill- and that her concerns are different from those that she conceived Bill, which would not even do what she wants. has set out. 653 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill9 SEPTEMBER 2011 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill 654 9.45 am So it is possible for a Bill that is predominantly about Amendment 6 states that Scotland but has some implications for England and Wales to be dealt with under the Scottish procedure.