PARL~ENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)
FORTY-FOURTH PARLIAMENT
SECOND SESSION (1968-69)
ijrgialatiur VOL. CCXCIII. (From NOJJember 28, 1968 to Apn·Z 2, 1969) MELBOURNE: A. C. BROOKS, GOVERNMENT PRINTER. 5274'69. ~ ~I : 3-,~) miff ClnttftttOr His Excellency Major-General SIR ROHAN DELACOMBE, K.e.M.G., K.B.E., C.B., D.S.O•• K.ST.J. miff 14ituttuuut-~nttfrunr Lieutenant-General the Honorable SIR EDMUND FRANCIS HERRING, K.e.M.G., K.B.E., D.S.O., M.e., E.D. The Hon. Sir Henry Bolte, K.e.M.G .• Premier and Treasurer .. M.P. " Sir Arthur Ryiah, K.B.E., Chief Secretary . . e.M.G., E.D., M.P. G. L. Chandler, C.M.G., Minister of Agriculture .. M.L.e. Minister of Education 1 L H. S. Thompson, M.L.C. Attorney-General and Minister of Immigration G. O. Reid. M.P. Minister of Puhlic Works .. . . M. V. Porter, M.P. Minister of Housing, Minister of Forests, and Minister} E. R. Meagher, M.B.E., for Aboriginal Affairs ...... E.D., M.P. Minister for Local Government R. J. Hamer, E.D., M.L.C. Minister for Fuel and Power, and Minister of Mines J. C. M. Balfour, M.P. Minister of Labour and Industry J. F. Rossiter, M.P. Minister of Transport V. F. Wilcox, M.P. Minister of Health V. O. Dickie, M.L.e. Mi:tister of State Development J. W. Manson, M.P. ~1inister of Lands, Minister of Soldier Settlement, an.d.} Sir William McDonald. Minister for Conservation M.P. Minister of Water Supply .. W. A. Borthwick, M.P. Parliamentary Secretary of the Cabinet: Mr. J. A. Rafferty, M.P. illiat af fltmbtfs af ,arltaU1tltt FORTY-FOURTH PARLIAMENT-SECOND SESSION (1968-69) LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL PRESIDENT: THE HON. R. W. GARRETT. CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: THE HON. G. J. NICOL, TEMPORARY CHAIRMEN OF COMMITTEES: THE HONORABLES A. K. BRADBURY, G. W. THOM, AND ARCHIBALD TODD. MEMBER PROVINCE MEMBER PROVINCE Bradbury, A. K. North-Eastern Hamilton, H. M., E.D... Higinbotham Byrne, Murray Ballaarat Hewson, H. A. Gippsland Byrnes, Sir Percy North-Western Houghton, W. V. Templestowe Campbell, W. M. East Yarra Hunt, A. J. South-Eastern Cathie, I. R. South-Eastern Knight, A. W. Melbourne West Chandler, G. L., C.M.G. Boronia Mansell, A. R. North-Western Clarke, M. A. Northern May, R. W. Gippsland Dickie, V. O. Ballaarat McDonald, S. R. Northern Elliot, D. G. Melbourne Merrifield, Samuel Doutta Galla Fry, W. G ... Higinbotham Mitchell, C. A. Western Galbally, J. W. Melbourne North Nicol, G. J. Monash Garrett, R. W., A.F.C., Southern O'Conne!l, G. J. Melbourne A.E.A. Swinburne, I. A. North-Eastern Gleeson, S. E. South-Western Thorn, G. W. South-Western Granter, F. J. Bendigo Thompson, L. H. S. Monash Grimwade, F. S. Bendigo Todd, Archibald Melbourne West Gross, K. S ... Western Tripovich, J. M. Doutta Galla Hamer, R. J., E.D. East Yarra Walton, J. M ... Melbourne North LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY SPEAKER: THE HON. VERNON CHRISTIE. CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : MR. L. S. REID. TEMPORARY CHAIRMEN OF COMMITTEES: MR. CLAREY, MR. DUNSTAN, MR. A. T. EVANS, MR. FENNESSY, MR. J. D. MACDoNALD, MR. MITCHELL, MR. STOKES, MR. SUGGETT, SIR EDGAR TANNER, MR. TREWIN. MR. TURNBULL, MR. WHEELER. MR. WHITING, AND MR. WILTSHIRE. LEADER OF THE LIBERAL PARTY: THE HON. SIR HENRY BOLTE. K.C.M.G. DEPUTY LEADER OF THE LIBERAL PARTY: THE HON. SIR ARTHUR RYLAH, K.B.E., C.M.G., E.D. LEADER OF THE PARLIAMENTARY LABOR PARTY AND LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: MR. A. C. HOLDING. DEPUTY LEADER OF THE PARLIAMENTARY LABOR PARTY AND DEPUTY LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr. F. N. WILKES. LEADER OF THE COUNTRY PARTY: THE HON. G. C. Moss. DEPUTY LEADER OF THE COUNTRY PARTY: MR. B. J. EVANS. ELECTORAL MEMBER MEMBER ELECTORAL DISTRICT· DISTRICT Balfour, J. C. M. Narracan Mitchell, T. W. Benambra Billing, N. A. W .• K.SLJ. Heatherton Moss, G. C. Murray Valley Birrell, H. W. Geelong Mutton, J. P. .. Coburg Bloomfield, Sir John,Q.C. Malvern Phelan, William Kara Kara Bolte, Sir Henry, Hampden Porter, M. V. Sandringham K.C.M.G. Rafferty, J. A. GlenhuntIy Borthwick, W. A. Monbulk Reese, W. F. L. Moorabbin *Broad, H. G. Swan Hill Reid, G. O. Box Hill Buckley, R. F. Lowan Reid, L. S., D.F.C. Dandenong Christie. Vernon lvanhoe Ring, E. C. Preston Clarey, R. A. Melbourne Ross-Edwards, Peter Shepparton Cochrane, L. J. Gippsland West Rossiter, J. F ... Brighton Darcy, T. A. Pol warth Rylah, Sir Arthur, K.B.E., Kew Divers, W. T. Footscray C.M.G., E.D. Dixon, B. J. SL Kilda Scanlan, A. H. Oakleigh Doyle, J. J ... Gisborne Smith, A. V. Bellarine Dunstan, R. c., D.S.O. Dromana Smith, J. W. Warrnambool Edmunds, C. T. Moonee Ponds Stephen, W. F. Ballaarat South Evans, A. T. Ballaarat North tStirling, H. V. Swan Hill Evans, B. J. Gippsland East Stokes, R. N. Evelyn Fennessy, L. M. Brunswick East Stoneham. C. P. Midlands Floyd, W. L. Williamstown Suggett, R. H. Bentleigh Ginifer, J. J. Deer Park Sutton, P. K. .. Albert Park Goble, Mrs. D. A. Mitcham Tanner, A. L. .. Morwell Hayes, G. P. Scoresby Tanner, Sir Edgar, C.B.E., Caulfield Holding, A. C. Richmond E.D. Hyland, Sir Herbert Gippsland South Taylor, A. W., E.D. Balwyn Jenkins, Dr. H. A. Reservoir Templeton, T. W. Mentone Jona, Walter .. Hawthorn Trethewey, R. H. Bendigo Lovegrove, Denis Sunshine Trewin. T. C. Benalla Loxton, S. J. E. Prahran Trezise, N. B. .. Geelong North MacDonald, J. D. Glen Iris TurnbuIl, CampbeIl Brunswick West McDonald, R. S. L. Rodney Vale, R. M. Greensborough McDonald, Sir William Dundas Wheeler, K. H. Essendon McKellar, D. K. Portland Whiting, M. S. Mildura McLaren, I. F., O.B.E. Bennettswood Wilcox, V. F. Camberwell Manson, .T. W. Ringwood Wilkes, F. N. . Northcote Meagher, E. R., M.B.E., Frankston Wilton, J. T. Broadmeadows E.D. Wiltshire, R. J. Syndal • Elected. September 24. 1968. t Died. July 23. 1968. HEADS OF PARLIAMENTARY DEPARTMENTS. Council-Clerk of the Parliaments and Clerk of the Legislative Council : Mr. L. G. McDonald (Retired March 5, 1969). Clerk of the Parliaments and Acting Clerk of the Legislative Council (from March 6, 1969): Mr. A. R. B. McDonnell. Assembly-Clerk of the Legislative Assembly: Mr. A. R. B. McDonnell (Seconded to Legislative Council on March 6, 1969). Acting Clerk ,of the Legislative Assembly (from March 6, 1969) : Mr. J. H. Campbell. Hansard-Chief Reporter: Mr. G. E. Clarke. Library-Librarian: M r. L. E. Parkes. Alilk Board [28 NOVEMBER, 1968.] (Amendment) Bill. 2397 shops, the Board considers that there Sub-section (1) of section 22 of is a large potential market for this the Milk Board Act provides that the product at sporting venues, theatres, Board, after inquiry, may from time dance halls, bowling alleys and other to time by notice published in the places of entertainment, many of Government Gazette specify those which may not be interested in hold dairies from which milk may be sold ing a milk shop licence or would not in a milk district, and cancel the qualify to be licensed as milk shops. licences of all such dairies not so specified. By this the Board is able The Board is of the opinion that to rationalize the distribution of milk the sale of packaged flavoured milk in areas under its control. There is, from unlicensed premises would have however, no provision for the sepa no adverse effect 'on the economics rate specification of dairies at which of home deliveries of milk, but would dairy produce other than milk is sold increase the over-all milk sales and or prepared for sale, and if these provide additional service to the public. It is therefore proposed to dairies were to be specified under the amend the Act to exempt persons existing provisions of the Act they selling packaged flavoured milk, as would have to be specified as dairies distinct from plain milk, from the from which milk may be sold. If requirement to hold a nlilk shop they were not specified by the notice licence. When the Milk Board Act referred to, their licences would be was amended in 1962 to empower the automatically cancelled by the pub Board to licence milk vending mach lication of the notice. ines, the amendment specifically ex empted machines vending flavoured Whilst it has no wish to limit the milk from the licensing requirement. issue of licences in respect of cream The amendment in this Bill is there processors' premises, the Board is fore consistent with the principle not prepared to approve automatically adopted in relation to vending mach the issue of licences to any persons ines. wishing to process cream if the issuing of such licences confers on At present an anomalous situation the licence-holders the right to pro exists in relation to the issue of dairy cess and sell milk, as this would con licences in respect of premises which sell or prepare for sale, dairy pro flict with its responsibility under the duce other than milk. There are Act to rationalize the sale and dis within Milk Board districts a number tribution of milk. The need for the of firms which bottle and sell cream Department of Agriculture to issue but which do not sell or distribute dairy licences to premises other than milk. Regulation 128 of the Milk and those selling milk was apparently not Dairy Supervision Act regulations envisaged when the Milk Board Act provides that no person shall sell was drafted in its present form. To cream in bottles unless the cream has overcome this situation, it is proposed been bottled at a dairy. Until the pre to amend the Act to permit the sent time, however, because of a Board, in publishing a notice specify complication created by sub-section ing dairies, to specify separately (1) of section 22 of the Milk Board those dairies from which dairy pro Act, the Department of Agriculture ducts other than milk are sold or pre has been obliged to issue these premises with store licences rather pared for sale. I commend the Bill to than dairy licences. As officers of the the House. Department have much wider super On the motion of Mr. FENNESSY visory authority over premises (Brunswick East), the debate was licensed as dairies than over those adjourned. licensed as stores, it is proposed that ) premises at which cream is bottled It was ordered that the debate be shall be issued with dairy licences. adjourned until Tuesday, December 3. Session 1968.-89. 2398 Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Adjournment. ADJOURNMENT. copies of Hansard addressed to BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE: HOURS OF honorable members to the post MEETING-LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR'S office at Spencer-street at a time SPEECH: PRESENTATION OF AOORESS on Friday evenings which would IN,-REPLY-" HANSARD": NON-DE enable the postal authorities to make LIVERY ON SATURDAY. deliveries on the following morning. Today, the Chief Reporter received Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secre a visit from the Customer Relations tary) .-1 move- Officer of the Postmaster-General's That the House, at its rising, adjourn until Department who informed him that, Tuesday next, at a quarter to Two o'clock. in accordance with the new delivery policy of the Department, Saturday The motion was agreed to. delivery of "other articles", which includes Hansard, was suspended on Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secre and from the 26th October. 1 am tary) .-1 move- trying to see how this difficulty can That the House do now adjourn. be overcome. For the information of honorable The motion was agreed to. members, 1 wish to indicate the hours of meeting next week. On Tuesday The House adjourned at 6.46 p.m., next it is proposed that the House until Tuesday, December 3. shall sit from 2.15 p.m. until 11 p.m. On Wednesday the sitting will com mence at approximately 11 a.m. and continue until 7 p.m. On Thursday the hour of meeting will be 10 a.m. or 11 a.m. and the House will sit on the evening of that day. It may also 14tgt.aiatittt The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister Amounts as set out in the following table of Health) .-The answer contains have been allocated and paid from the capital funds of the Hospitals and Charities statistical data, and I seek leave of Commission on major projects in each of the House to have it incorporated in the past five years. Hansard without my reading it. In this answer, "major project" has the same meaning as in the Treasury "forward Leave was granted, and the answer look" loan programme--cc having a total was as follows:- estimated cost of $200,000 or more". HOSPITALS AND CHARmEs CoMMISSION. New Buildings (including furniture, Institution. furnishings. and equipment). Amount. $ 1963-64- Austin Hospital Nurses' home, outpatients and casualty, 470,127 workshops, group laundry Dental Hospital .. New hospital, debenture repayment .. 581,973 Royal Children's Hospital New main block ...... 495,179 Royal Women's Hospital Pathology block, main block, teaching and 499,416 amenities block Alfred Hospital . . . . Nurses' home, W. S. Philip block .. 998,372 Footscray and District Hospital After-care unit, casualty and pathology 274,530 departments Preston and Northcote Community Hos Outpatient and casualty departments, 389,446 pital amenities block Sandringham Memorial Hospital Society New hospital, nurses' home .. . . 938,866 Warrnambool and District Base Hospital Ward block, casualty department and 247,593 theatre suite, boiler plant 4,895,502 964-65- Royal Children's Hospital .. Main block, audiometry unit .. . . 472,256 Royal Women's Hospital ., Main block.. ., .. ., 775,402 Alfred Hospital . . . . W. S. Philip block ., .. .. 1,572,299 Footscray and District Hospital Casualty and pathology departI"I!ent. ." ~01.869 Prince Henry's Hospital .. Wards 6 north and 6 south, nurses trammg 309,666 and amenities wing, pathology depart ment Royal Melbourne Hospital Nurses' home extensions, clinical sciences 448,830 block Geelong and District Hospital Kardinia House extensions, pathology 241,600 extensions Mooroopna and District Base Hospital Goulburn Valley-midwifery wing 703,014 Warrnambool and District Base Hospital Casualty and theatre suite, staff fiats, 349,704 I boiler plant 5,174,640 965-66- Austin Hospital ...... Group laundry ...... 805,881 Royal Victorian Eye and Ear Hospital . . Operating theatre and suite .. . . 319,596 Royal Women's Hospital .. .. Main block...... 1,076,924 Alfred Hospital ...... W. S. Philip block, nurses' training school 502,963 Dandenong and District Hospital . . Central block stage 1 . . . . 329,813 Mercy Public Maternity Hospital . . New hospital ...... 272,500 Southern Memorial Hospital Society New hospital ...... 649,664 (Caulfield) Wangaratta and District Base Hospital. . North wing project ...... 315,711 Cheltenham Home and Hospital for the Ward block No.1, laundry alterations .. 219,104 Aged J 4,492,156 2400 Hospitals and [COUNCIL.] Charities Commission. HOSPITALS AND CHARrrms COMMISSION-continued. New Buildings (including furniture, Amount. Institution. furnishings, and equipment). $ 1966-67- Royal Women's Hospita Main block .. 561,015 Alfred Hospital W. S. Philip block, alterations to theatres 1,024,419 8 and 9. Biochemistry, dialysis and C.S.D., east block, ward block Box Hill and District Hospital Midwifery block, stage 1 627,684 Dandenong and District Hospital Central block stage 1 441,960 Fairfield Hospital H. McLorinan block-wards 1 and 2, 459,191 covered ways Mercy Public Maternity Hospital New hospital 1,000,000 Southern Memorial Hospital Society New hospital 946,888 (Caulfield) Ballarat and District Base Hospital New central block 214,450 Bendigo and Northern District Base Casualty and outpatient building 414,432 Hospital Wangaratta and District Base Hospital Main ward block, north wing project 228,983 Latrobe Valley Community Hospital New hospital 412,558 (Moe) Society Greenvale Village Laundry, store, and mortuary. Infirmary 223,843 building-south wing Cheltenham Home and Hospital for the Toilets and bathrooms, ward block No.1, 288,692 Aged ward block No. 2 Queen Elizabeth Home Day hospital 203,025 7,047,140 1967-68- Austin Hospital Hospital-university development, "A" 276,397 block lift tower, 3KZ block, diversion of services Queen Victoria Memorial Hospital Hospital-university project, stage 2 601,923 Royal Women's Hospital Main block.. .. 1,228,969 Alfred Hospital East block, new ward block ., 958,845 Box Hill and District Hospital Midwifery block, stage 1 741,291 Dandenong and District Hospital Centre block, stages 1 and 2, steam 679,092 generator Mercy Public Maternity Hospital New hospital .. 1,000,000 Prince Henry's Hospital Clinical school building, PABX telephone 306,134 system Southern Memorial Hospital Society New hospital 391,200 (Caulfield) Ballarat and District Base Hospital .. New central block 233,950 Latrobe Valley Community Hospital New hospital 1,000,000 (Moe) Society Cheltenham Home and Hospital for the Ward block No. 2 319,208 Aged 7,737,009 1---- DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE. Victorian Herd Improvement Association through which the Department offers an STUD HERD ACCREDITATION SCHEME. accreditation scheme-(i) how many owners The Hon. H. A. HEWSON (Gipps of stud herds have applied for accreditation; (ii) is accreditation confined to stud herds; land Province) asked the Minister of if not, how many applications have been Agriculture- received in respect of grade herds; (iii) how Since the discontinuance of the standard is the accreditation carried out; (iv) what herd testing by the Department of Agricul is the cost to date to the Department; and ture of pure bred herds throughout Victoria (v) what would be the ultimate cost if all and the inclusion of these herds into the breeders applied for accreditation? Public Transport. [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Public Transport. 2401 The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER largely absorbed within the framework of (Minister of Agriculture) .-The existing privately operated bus services operating on or near those routes. Licences answer is- were issued for a period of seven years. (i) Thirty-three. (ii) (ii) Yes, accreditation is confined to stud herds. Number Total (iii) By at least two, generally three, test of annual ing visits each year by a departmental accre Bus operator. vehicles licence ditation officer. These visits are supple operated. fees paid. mentary to those of the Victorian Herd Improvement Association herd tester. Milk samples obtained on accreditation visits are $ forwarded to the Government laboratory for butterfat testing. Production results obtained Bender's Busways Pty. Ltd. 55 4,380 from accreditation visits are then compared with Victorian Herd Improvement Associa Trans Otway Ltd. 13 1,030 tion findings obtained at the nearest Vic torian Herd Improvement Association visit. 1. J. Cook and Son Pty. Ltd. 10 776 (iv) Costs are assessed at being approxi A. M. and N. J. McHarry .. 12 994 mately twice that recouped by the fee charged. The fee per herd is $30 per annum, and revenue since the scheme came into operation in 1966 is $1,710. The cost to (iii) Service is provided on each route date is estimated at $3,420. only by the licensed operator. The Board has imposed no charges other than annual (v) In the herd test year 1967-68, 1,532 licence fees. of the 5,400 herds tested had a stud cow (b) The Board did not pay any money content. Each of these would appear to as compensation to the private bus owners be eligible for the accreditation service. but paid a purchase price of $160,000 for the business as a whole. If the honorable Revenue from this number at $30 per member desires further information on this year would be $45,960 and costs as per (iv) matter, I understand that the Minister of above are assessed at $911,9'20. Transport will be pleased to supply it to him. PUBLIC TRANSPORT. ALLOCATION OF FORMER TRAM ROUTES EDUCATION DEPARTMENT. IN GEELONG: EAST DONCASTER Bus USE OF VIDEO TAPES FOR TEACHING ROUTE. PURPOSES. The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH The Hon. I. R. CATHIE (South (Doutta Galla Province) asked the Eastern Province) asked the Minister Minister of Agriculture- of Education- (a) With the closure of the tramway Has the Education Department any plans services in Geelong-(i) how were the to experiment with the use of video tapes tramway routes made available to private for teaching purposes; if so, what are these bus operators and for what period; (ii) plans and when will they be introduced? what annual fees are paid and by whom for each of the various routes licensed; and The Hon. L. H. S THOMPSON (iii) have the licensees monopoly rights for each of their respective routes; if so, (Minister of Education) .-The was any fee or charge made for these answer is- rights? Monash Teachers' College, Secondary (b) What amount of money was paid in Teachers' College, Toorak Teachers' College compensation by the Melbourne and Metro and Monash High School have closed circuit politan Tramways Board to private bus television installations, including video tape owners to resume the monopoly rights of recorders. Consideration is being given to the East Doncaster bus route previously the purchase of complete installations of obtained by licence? video tape recorders for some other teachers' colleges, and a recorder for the Depart The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER ment's Visual Education Branch. (Minister of Agriculture) .-The The ultimate objective is a library of video answers are- tapes to be shared by all colleges. Speci fications have been drawn up so that (a) (i) As the result of discussions equipment used may be compatible, and a between bus operators and the Transport few schools are now considering the pur Regulation Board, tramway routes were chase of approved equipment. 2402 Curriculum Advisory [CQUNcn...] Board. All the above schemes are working on CURRICULUM ADVISORY BOARD. an experimental basis at present. The future development of video tape equipment REPORTS: MEMBERS: HIGH AND will depend to some extent on these TECHNICAL SCHOOLS. experiments. However, there is no doubt in my mind that there will be a steadily The Hon. I. R. CATHIE (South increasing use of video tapes in schools Eastern Province) asked the Minister and universities over the next decade. of Education- (a) What documents have been compiled by the Curriculum Advisory Board and to UNIVERSITY OF MELBOURNE. whom have they been distributed? GRANTS AND SCHOLARSHIPS TO (b) Who are the members of the Board POST-GRADUATE STUDENTS. and what organizations or groups do they represent? The Hon. I. R. CATHIE (South (c) Has the Board suggested that the Eastern Province) asked the Minister separate systems of junior high and tech of Education- nical schools should be eliminated; if so, does he accept this view and is he planning What is the reason for the drop of 100 to act on it? in University of Melbourne grants and scholarships to post-graduate students in The Hon. L. H. S THOMPSON 1968? (Minister of Education) .-As the answers contain detailed information The Hon. L. H. S THOMPSON I seek leave of the House for their (Minister of Education).-The answer incorporation in Hansard without is- being read. Other claims on available funds took pre Leave was granted, and the cedence at that time. However, it should answers were as follows:- be pointed out that in response to a request from the Chancellor of Melbourne university (a) Two interim reports have been com the State Government did agree to make piled, followed by a supplementary interim available an additional $250,000 for the 1968 report on the work at Moreland High School. and 1969 calendar years. A similar request They were distributed to all secondary to the Commonwealth produced no response. schools, both State and. non-State, and to other educational institutions. (b) CURRICULUM ADVISORY BOARD. MELBOURNE AND METROPOLITAN Members for 1968, and organizations and TRAMWAYS BOARD. groups represented, are:-- . Mr. F. H. Brooks, Director-General of PERIODICAL TICKETS. Education. Mr. W. B. Russell, Assistant Director The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH General of Education. (Doutta Galla Province) asked the Association of Head Mistresses of Indepen Minister of Agriculture- dent Schools of Victoria. Miss B. Guyett, Korowa Church of (a) Has the Melbourne and Metropolitan England Girls' Grammar School. Tramways Board considered the introduction Miss M. Davis, St. Catherine's School. of weekly, monthly, &c., periodical tickets Catholic Education Office. issued at a reduced rate to ensure regular Reverend Brother F. McCarthy, Chris patronage; if so, with what result? tian Brothers College, East St. Kilda. (b) Will the Government consider this Sister M. Margaret Mary, Santa Maria proposal to encourage greater use of public College. transport and so reduce the heavy peak Curriculum and Research Branch, Education traffic loads now carried on metropolitan Departmen t. highways? Mr. G. K. McK. Brown, curriculum and research officer. The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER Psychology and Guidance Branch, Educa (Minister of Agriculture) .-The tion Department. Mr. J. McLeod, assistant principal answers are- psychologist and guidance officer. (a) Yes, on a number of occasions in the Education Department. past but it has always rejected them. Mr. R. A. Reed, Director of Secondary Education. (b) It is again considering them at the Mr. D. V. Satchell, Assistant Director Government's request. of Secondary Education. Li6utenant-Governor's Speech: [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Address-in-Reply. 2403 Miss G. M. Wainwright, Board of LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR'S Inspectors of Secondary Schools. SPEECH. Mr. L. Watts, Assistant Director of Technical Education. PRESENTATION OF ADDRESS-IN-REPLY. Incorporated Association of Registered The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Teachers of Victoria. Garrett).-I desire to remind honor Mrs. H. M. Davies, Camberwell Girls' Grammar School. able members that the Address-in Mr. A. K. Sandell, Carey Grammar Reply will be presented to His School. Excellency the Governor at Govern Monash University, Faculty of Education. ment House at 10 a.m. tomorrow, Mr. J. A. Fyfield, Monash University. Wednesday, 4th December, and I University of Melbourne, School of Edu request that as many honorable cation. members as possible accompany me. Mrs. G. Dow, senior lecturer. Cars for the conveyance of honorable Victorian Branch, Head Masters' Conference. members will leave the front steps Mr. P. N. Thwaites, Geelong College. of Parliament House at 9.45 a.m. Mr. V. C. Brown, Ivanhoe Grammar School. Victorian Council of School Organizations. GOODS (TEXTILE PRODUCTS) Mr. R. G. Kitchenn, President. BILL. Mr. H. P. Carter, senior vice-president. This Bill was received from the Victorian High Schools Principals' Asso Assembly and, on the motion of the ciation. Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Mr. B. M. Moss, Hadfield High School. Mr. J. J. Bishop, Moe High School. Health), was read a first time. Victorian Secondary Teachers' Association. Mr. J. Harris, Blackburn High School. LIQUEFIED GASES BILL. Mr. W. Hannan, Moreland High School. The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister Victorian Teachers' Union. for Local Government) .-1 move- Miss B. Fitzpatrick, University High School. That this Bill be now read a second time. Mr. M. Vogt, McKinnon High School. In 1957 Parliament enacted the Victorian Universities and Schools Examin Liquified Petroleum Gas Act to ations Board. give some measure of control over Professor J. S. Turner, University of liquefied petroleum gas which was Melbourne. Associate Professor N. D. Harper, becoming an increasingly important University of Melbourne. commodity. That Act related only In addition, the following organizations to storage, but did not provide for are represented by observers:- the inspection of storages; further Australian Council for Educational Research. more, it made no provision for the Mr. R. T. Fitzgerald. transportation of liquefied petroleum Technical Teachers' Association of Victoria. gas. Since 1957, a number of other Mr. A. R. Delves, Prahran Technical hazardous gases have been stored in College. increasing quantities and this, in tum, has resulted in the bulk transporta (c) The Board has not made any clear recommendation to this effect, but the tion of these gases. In some instances interim report expresses opposition to the the gas is transported in the liquid maintenance of separate high and technical form under pressure; examples are schools and offers the opinion that children liquefied petroleum gas, chlorine and should not have to make a final choice between secondary and technical before, at anhydrous ammonia. In other instan least, the end of fourth year of secondary ces, the gas is transported under schooling. refrigeration; an example is the trans At the present time the secondary and portation of liquid oxygen. technical divisions are carrying out a joint experiment at Kyneton High School and Some measures of control are Daylesford Technical High School, in which needed over both the storage and the both schools are using a common pro transportation of liquefied petroleum gramme for the first four years for secon dary and technical pupils. The result of gas and those other gases which, be this experiment will provide a guide for cause of their inflammable or toxic future action. properties, constitute some degree of 2404 Liquefied Gases [COUNCIL.] Bill. risk to the public. It is proposed, in are stored and transported in bulk or the interests of public safety, to intro which may be stored and transported duce a system of inspection and in bulk in the near future. It includes licensing on lines similar to that al liquefied petroleum gas, liquefied ready operative under the Inflamm methane, ethane, ethylene, ethylene able Liquids Act 1966. oxide, butadiene and vinyl chloride. Some of these are already in use in The Hon. R. W. MAY.-Is it pro considerable quantities in the petro posed to institute a fee for this licen chemical industry. Hydrogen is sing? already stored and transported over The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-I shall seas under refrigeration, and it is con answer that question later, but I sidered that this highly inflammable would imagine that if inspections gas should be included in the list of were involved, there would probably gases under the Bill. Liquefied be a fee. chlorine is at present transported The Bill provides for the reporting under pressure in massive containers, of accidents, fires, explosions or but it is a very poisonous gas and accidental leakage associated with the could cause ,a considerable hazard to storage or transportation of lique1fied the public if it escaped. gases, and inspectors are given full powers for inquiry into such happen Liquefied oxygen is now trans ings. Inspectors will be empowered ported in bulk under refrigeration. to carry out inspections to ensure Although oxygen gas by itself is not conformity to proper standards of hazardous, a very large volume in the storage and transportation as laid liquid form and under an intensely down in the Act and regulations. low temperature, which is the manner Penalties are set down for non in which it is transported, could cause compliance. serious problems in the event of an The Liquefied Gases Act, which will escape of the liquid. Liquefied supersede the Liquified Petroleum ammonia-that is, ammonia gas Gas Act, will be administered by the liquefied by pressure-is being used Explosives and Gas Examining Branch on an ever increasing scale for agri of the Mines Department. This cultural purposes. If this gas is not Branch has administered the Liquified stored and transported under proper Petroleum Gas Act since its inception, conditions and it escapes as a gas, it and its officers have gained consider will cause considerable annoyance able experience in the siting of storage vessels in relation to protected works or risk to the public. Provision is also and the requirements for equipment, made in this clause for any other fittings, valves and pipe-work asso liquefied gas to be brought within the ciated with such vessels. Officers are ambit of the Bill if this is thought to familiar with published standards for be desirable. The definition of "pro the construction of vehicles and tected work" includes those types of vessels to carry liquefied gases. They premises or places which should be have also investigated accidents separated from ,a storage of liquefied involving liquefied petroleum gas hazardous gas by some stated tankers, and are conversant with minimum distance. Under paragraph industry practices in the transfer (g) of sub-clause (1) of clause 22 of operations of gas from storage vessels this Bill it will be possible to set down to tankers and from tankers to storage what these minimum distances shall vessels. be. I propose to comment on only the important provisions contained in the Clause 4 provides for the appoint Bill. Clause 3 is the interpretation ment of the necessary inspectors to clause. The term "liquefied gas" administer the Bill. As I mentioned includes those gases which at present earlier, these are expected to be National Parks (Little Desert [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] and Mt. Richmond) Bill. 2405 inspectors of inflammable liquids and Richmond National Park. The pro their duties ·associated with this Bill posal for a national park in the Little will be an extension of work they are Desert is of very long standing, and already doing. has attracted widespread support. Clause 2 provides for a national park Most of the remaining clauses of 2,870 acres, which is the former relate to the powers of these Kiata Lowan Sanctuary reserve inspectors or to the issue and cancel together with 2,300 acres of land in lation of licences. I do not propose to the Little Desert further to the south. deal with them in any detail, but I invite the attention of the House to The Kiata Lowan Sanctuary, which clause 12, which provides for certain is a few miles south of the Western exemptions f~om the provisions of the Highw·ay, about midway between Act as regards transportation, con Horsham and the South Australian veyance and storage; but this border, is of some note as a exemption does not apply to loading bird sanctuary, both in Australia and and unloading operations, including overseas. The Wallowa wattle is loading and unloading from any ship. widespread throughout the sanctuary, However, representations have been producing large numbers of seeds. made to the Government by the Mel These seeds appear to be the bulk of bourne Harbor Trust Commissioners, the food supply for the Lowan or and it has been agreed that the Bill Mallee-fowl, and this is largely should be amended to exclude from responsible for a greater density of the operation of the Act the trans population of this bird than occurs in portation of and the loading and any other Mallee area in Victoria. unloading of liquefied gas in any area under the control of a harbor The region commonly called "The authority. Little Desert" is a tract of more than 700 square miles of what is mostly The remaining clauses of the Bill sandy country, extending westward are purely administrative and are for more than 60 miles from the designed to carry out the main pur Wimmera river near Dimboola to the poses that I have described. It is South Australian border near Service a simple Bill and one which will pro ton. Its northern and southern limits vide a measure of cont~ol over the vary considerably, its average width storage and transportation of highly being about 14 miles. Despite its dangerous gases in liquid form. It name, little evidence of a true desert is time that the public was afforded is to be seen. The sandhills which this protection, and I commend the occupy much of the terrain carry Bill to the House. heath, banksia, casuarina, tea-tree On the motion of the Hon. A. W. and stunted stringybark. In the KNIGHT (Melbourne West Province), troughs of the hills Mallee scrub is the debate was adjourned. to be found. It was ordered that the debate be The protection and preservation in adjourned until the next day of meet some suitable manner of at least part ing. of the Little Desert has been under consideration for ·at least 50 years. As long ago as 1913, a Mr. D'Alton, NATIONAL PARKS (LITTLE one-time shire engineer at Dimboola, DESERT AND MOUNT RICHMOND) BILL. published in the Victorian Naturalist magazine a list of more than 200 plant The' Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister species which he had collected during for Local Government).-I move- his travels in the area. In the late That this Bill be now read a second time. 1930's, Keith Hately and the late Fred This measure proposes to declare a Lewis, then Chief Inspector of Little Desert National Park and to Fisheries and Game, made the notable include additional land in the Mount discovery that the Mallee-fowI was 2406 National Parks (Little Desert [COUNCIL.] and M t. Richmond) Bill. able to keep its mounds at a constant Preliminary action taken pending temperature of 'approximately 94 to legislation includes temporary reser 95 degrees Fahrenheit. This discovery vation of the area under the Land was made in the Little Desert, south Act; appointment of the National of Kiata. Parks Authority as a committee of In October, 1950, Mr. J. Ros Garnet, management of the propased park; honorary secretary of the National and the appaintment 'Of the Kiata Parks Standing Committee, suggested naturalist, Mr. Keith Hateley, as ·a in evidence to the State Development national park ranger, and his second Committee inquiry on national parks ment ta this area. This 'Of caurse is a reserve for the protectian 'Of the 'Only a summary. flora and fauna of the Little Desert. This is the first instalment of a In 1955 an area of 537 acres was tem larger national park in the Little porarily reserved under the Land Act Desert. The Gavernment has agreed, as a site for the protection of native within the past two weeks, to transfer fauna and flora, and known as the an area of 80,000 to 90,000 acres to Kiata Lowan Sanctuary Reserve. A the control of the National Parks cammittee 'Of management was ap Authority. pointed. On the 6th of March, 1958, the committee of management of the Clause 3 of this Bill provides for Kiata Lowan Sanctuary, through its the addition of 502 acres to Mount secretary, Keith Hateley, applied ta Richmand Natianal Park. This wauld the newly-established Natianal Parks make the tatal area 2,036 acres. The Authority t'D have the reserve brought Forests Commission has released for under the National ,Parks Act, and in national parks purposes an area of April, 1960, the late Honorable W. J. 150 acres directly ta the sauth 'Of the Mibus, M.L.A., applied to the Lands summit of Maunt Richmond. Another Department, on behalf of the K:iata 352 acres east of the existing park will committee of management, for an pravide an expanse of 'Open flat 18,000-acre area to the south to be ground where kangaroos, wallabies added to the reserve. and emus may be seen ta advantage. The additional land has areas of wet In September, 1961, the Wimmera swamps where large numbers of the Regional Committee arranged an beautiful large-tongue orchid and the inspection by local councillors, repre lizard orchid are to be found. In sentatives 'Of interested Departments recent years because 'Of the destruc and others, at which all present tion of its habitat the lizard orchid agreed that an area should be reserved for nature canservatian pur has become rare in Victoria. Its pre pases. In May, 1962, the Victorian servation will add to the values of N ati'Dnal Parks Association set out in the Mount Richmond National Park detail a praposal for a national park. and pravide a future reference area Since 1966 the Land Utilization for scientific research. Advisory Council has been studying The Maunt Richmond National the best land use for the Little Desert. Park, which was established in 1960, contains examples 'Of the coastal flora To bring this proposed national and fauna of Western Victoria, and is park to this stage has taken a long particularly noted for its wildflowers. time. One of the major steps taken It is about 20 miles west 'Of Partland, was the purchase of a cannecting and about 250 miles west of Mel strip between the old Kiata Lowan bourne by raad. Mount Richmond Sanctuary reserve, and the Crown lands in the Little Desert. This was (747 ft.) is the highest point along made possible by funds obtained by Victaria's far western caast and over the former committee of management laaks Discavery Bay and the Sauthern of the Kiata Sanctuary and by the Ocean. In good viewing weather, co-operation of the Bridgewater Maunt Gambier and the Grampians family, who owned the land. may be seen from its summit. A road The Hon. R. J. Hamer. Road Traffic [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] (Crown Land) Bill. 2407 has been completed to the vicinity of The chairman of the Albert Park the summit. A contract has been let Reserve committee of management for a look-out tower, and other has informed the Government that facilities for tourists are now pro the roads through the reserve already jected. 1 commend the Bill to the carry heavy traffic, and when the road House. projects at St. Kilda junction are completed an increase in the traffic On the motion of the Hon. J. W. on the reserve's roads can be GALBALL Y (Melbourne North Pro expected. The problems of the Albert vince), the debate was adjourned. Park committee of management It was ordered that the debate be created by the heavy flow of traffic adjourned until the next day of meet through the reserve are further aggra vated by the fact that motorists ing. persist in parking their cars on the roads in "no parking" and "no ROAD TRAFFIC (CROWN LAND) standing any time" areas and thereby BILL. obstruct other road users. Moreover, The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister the chairman attributes many of the for Local Government) .-1 move- accidents which O'ccur on reserve roads to such obstructions. That this Bill be now read a second time. The purpose of this measure is to The Albert Park committee of amend the Road Traffic Act 1958 to management considers that effective provide for the enforcement of the application of the Road Traffic Regu parking or leaving standing provisions lations cannot be maintained by the of the Road Traffic Regulations 1962, police or a municipal officer in the first, to' roads in the Albert Park limited time they can give to en Reserve, and, secondly, to Treasury forcing the observance of traffic laws place, by persons appointed by the in the reserve. The committee has appropriate authority for the purpose. requested, therefore, that its officers should be authorized under sub Under the Road Traffic Act 1958, section (1) of section 7 of the Act the Governor in Council is empowered to prosecute for breach of the Road to make regulations for or with Traffic Regulations. The Chief Com respect to the regulation and control missioner of Police supports this of vehicular, animal or pedestrian request to the extent that the powers traffic on streets or roads. Although of the officers appointed by the com the roads in the Albert Park Reserve mittee should be limited to the en and the road known as Treasury forcement of parking or standing place are parts of Crown reserves restrictions within the reserve. which have been set aside for special Treasury-place, which is the purposes under the Land Act 1958, approach road to the State offices, is they are roads to which the Road meant to be used by persons trans Traffic Regulations 1962 apply. When acting business at the Government any parking infringement under the offices. Obstruction of this road by RO'ad Traffic Act occurs on those unauthorized vehicles is an increasing roads, the owner-onus provisions of problem which cannot effectively be section 11 of that Act are applicable. eliminated by the limited attention Accordingly, any person who which can be given to the road by the leaves his vehicle standing or parked police or a municipal officer. in contravention of the Road Traffic To enable the Albert Park com Regulations may be served with a mittee of management and the Lands parking infringement notice by a Department to participate in the con member of the Police Force or by a trol of vehicles parked or standing in duly appointed officer of the relevant the reserve under the management of municipal council. the respective authorities, clause 3 of 2408 Poultry Processing [COUNCIL.] Bill. the Bill proposes to insert a new sub POULTRY PROCESSING BILL. section (lA) in section 7 of the Act The debate (adjourned from to authorize any officer appointed by November 26) on the motion of the the Albert Park committee of manage Hon. G. L. Chandler (Minister of ment or any bailiff of Crown lands Agriculture) for the second reading appointed under section 30 of the of this Bill was resumed. Land Act to prosecute only for any breach of regulations relating to park The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD ing, or standing, infringements on a (Melbourne West Province).-This road or street in the reserve with Bill, which was explained by the which each authority is concerned. Leader of the House, proposes to impose certain restrictions on the Clause 4 proposes that the penalties processing of poultry for sale to con recovered by way of a fine for a sumers in Victoria. It has taken a breach of any such regulation shall long time for this Bill to reach the be paid- Parliament and for something to be (a) where the information is laid done on a subject which, over the by an officer appointed by past year, has excited. a great ~eal. of the Albert Park committee interest from the varIOUS partIes m of management-into an volved. The interests of the consumer account kept by that com are the main objects behind the intro mittee, or duction of this measure. Much has (b) where the information is laid been said recently about the need for by a bailiff of Crown lands the consumer to be protected against -into the Consolidated avaricious people who desire to make Revenue. profits at his expense. This measure involves chicken meat, which has Clause 5 extends the meaning of become rather popular with many "authorized officer" in section 9 of people because the price of meat has the Act to include the officers risen to such an extent that many appointed by the Albert Park com families cannot afford beef, lamb or mittee of management and the bailiffs mutton and have recourse to cheaper of Crown lands appointed in con food in the shape of chicken meat. nexion with Treasury-place. This matter was first brought to Under sub-section (1) of section my attention by the firm of David 4 of the Act the Governor in Council Hyland & Sons which has a high is empower~d to make regulations reputa tion and has engaged in the regarding the re~ulation and cont!ol poultry industry for many years. At of vehicular, anImal or pedestrIan one time, this firm operated on the traffic on roads and under paragraph South Melbourne side of the river, (f) of the sub-section may delegate and in the past few years has been to certain bodies or officers of those in business in the City of Port bodies or members of the Police Melbourne. My attention was directed Force any authority or power in rela to the fact that unfair competition tion to the regulations. The effect of was being indulged in. A document clause 2 of the Bill brings the Albert which I received from David Hyland Park committee of management or & Sons gives some indication of the officers of the committee into line basis of the Bill. It refers to "the with the bodies specified in para water content in frozen chickens ", graph (f) . I commend this small as follows :- Bill to the House. 1. Present day processing entails the On the motion of the Hon. J. M. washing of the finished bird in cold water W ALTON (Melbourne North Pro and then spinning in slush ice. The bird takes up water, and this can be controlled. vince), the debate was adjourned. America regulates this take-up to 8 per cent. It was ordered that the debate be in frozen birds. adjourned until the next day of 2. Tasmania has regulated the intake to meeting. 5 per cent. The Hon. R. J. Hamer. Poultry Processing [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2409 3. Victoria has not as yet done anything progress being made, a Bill is now definite in this matter. before the House for the purpose of 4. Many brands of chickens are being controlling this facet which has been sold in Victoria with varying water contents. worrying some people for quite a Many of these are up to 18 per cent. while. 5. Late last year a consumer journal Choice, published in Sydney, published the The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.----:It has results of exhaustive tests on this matter. the backing of other States. Brand names were named in the journal and showed a regulated water content from The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD.-It 10 per cent. to 22! per cent. Most of these is essential that it should be backed labels are being sold in this State. One leading label tested shows a figure of 18! by the other States, particularly New per cent. South Wales and Queensland, because it is from those States that the worst 6. Our present feeling is that the Vic torian authorities are not very diligent on examples of consumer robbery this matter and that the regulated content emanate. should be along American lines at 8 per cent. The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-I would be careful about saying that. In other words, this firm was becom ing somewhat con'cerned at the fact The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD.-The that no action was being taken to birds that come from over the border impose controls. contain a lot of water. The article published in Sydney by Choice maga On rece'ipt of this correspondence, zine named the brands, and no Vic I wrote to the Minister of Agriculture torian brands were included. Brands last April. The Minister informed me coming into Victoria from other that this matter had excited the States were named as having a high attention of State Ministers of Agri water content. It is possible, by the culture at their conference in 1967. If use of machines, to inject a fair I recall correctly, the Minister stated amount of water into the birds. that the South Australian Minister of Agriculture was left with the task of The purpose of the Bill is to control drawing up submissions to be placed the activities of people who process before the conference of Ministers of chickens in Victoria, and we assume Agriculture in 1968. Naturally, this that when it is proclaimed and action position was not satisfactory from the is taken the public will be protected point of view of those who desire to to a greater extent than they have watch over the interests of con been in the past. One of the points sumers. made by the processors who keep the water content down to a legitimate If a person buys from a shop level is how the testing of the bird is a frozen chicken with a water con to be done by the inspectors. Various tent of 18 per cent., as alleged in the provisions in the Bill in this regard document that I have read, he pays give rise to satisfaction, and as a for water as well as for chicken meat. party we support the legislation. When the bird thaws out, the con sumer loses that 18 per cent. of water The first substantive provision is a and the bird is much lighter when it strange one to find at the beginning of is cooked. This practice brings the a Bill. It gives the Minister power to frozen chicken into unfair competi exempt certain processes from the tion with the fresh chicken. The firm provisions of the Bill, and I under to which I have referred is concerned stand that it is not intended to apply more with the processing of fresh la ter provisions in the measure to people who process fresh carcasses of chicken than with the frozen product. chicken meat. I suppose it is only Eventually, because of the action common sense, but I hope there will taken at the last meeting of the be no departure from the proposal to Ministers, or perhaps because the exempt only the processing of fresh Department was not satisfied with the chickens. 2410 Poultry Processing [COUNCIL.] Bill. The later clauses of the Bill provide and to ascertain what is happening. for the inspection of birds after they Penalties are also provided. Clauses have been processed in order that the 9 to 12 relate to the processing of inspector may test them for water poultry, and provision is made for a content. There are doubts as to what maximum allowable weight gain of is the best method of doing this and 8 per cent. and for a penalty of $2,000 whether it ought to be done by an where the ga'in exceeds that figure. inspector taking a single bird or That is a fairly high penalty, but it taking a batch. Although there are will make processors careful and times when we do not agree with the therefore should be worth while. If methods in use in various other only a nominal penalty were imposed, avenues in the United States of the processors could break the law, America, in this case it is apparent pay the fine and still make a consider that the Americans have a different able profit. method from that employed else There is also a provision in the Bill where. The letter I received from which gives a processor who thinks David Hyland & Sons contrasted two he is being dealt with harshly by an methods and then stated- inspector the right to appeal to the The Tasmanians take a bird from the shop Minister on the ground that he is and proceed to weigh it and test the " drip" being unfairly treated. Members of after 24 hours. my party welcome this Bill because it In other words, they test the bird gives some form of consumer protec for water content after taking it from tion, and, goodness knows, the con the shop where it is available for sumer needs protection. sale by retail. It is regrettable that in dealing with The Americans go into the factory and the water content of frozen chickens tag a sample lot (say 100 chickens). These are weighed before entering chill spinners, the Government has not gone and are weighed when they come out of the further and done something for the last chill spinner. The additional weight is people who raise chickens for the then calculated and must not exceed 8 per processors. A private member's Bill cent. of the weight of the bird before chilling. on the Notice Paper deals with this aspect, and I would have liked time David Hyland & Sons assert that the to be made available for the House second method is the better because to debate that Bill to decide whether a good number can be factory tested or not it contained any merit. Ap and the water intake is an actual parently that measure will stay on figure, whereas a drip test from the the Notice Paper, although there has frozen bird is not factual. The letter been an indication that the Minister from this firm also states- is aware of the problem and that at a Machines are now available and are later stage he may do something already installed in some factories which force water into the texture of the bird about it. There is no time like the which creates a condition that the total present, even if the sessional period amount of the water absorbed would not has to be extended for an additional fully drip away until 72 hours had elapsed. hour or two to enable that measure Such a test would not be reliable at all. to be considered. Apparently the pro It is suggested that the American ducers of chickens are having a bad method should be adopted. I hope time, and it is possible that some of this method is adopted by Victorian them will go to the wall as a result of inspectors as well as by inspectors the treatment they are receiving from from other States which enact similar the processors who buy their legisla tion to try to protect the pubIic chickens. from unscrupulous people. Members of my party have been Other clauses of the Bill provide for concerned about the monopolistic the registration of processing plants trend in this industry and the fact and for inspectors to visit these plants that it is being garnered into the The Hon. Archibald Todd. Poultry Processing [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2411 hands of a few people. There is little that the operations are conducted in diversification of processing plants. the right manner. This is in the in However, there are still one or two terests of consumers. The testing reputable firms which have turned procedures proposed and the measure their backs on take-over offers. Per generally meet with the approval haps the House could be afforded the of members of the Country Party. opportunity of discussing other It is a good start, and we hope the aspects of the industry before the consumers will benefit greatly from close of the sessional period. it when it comes into operation. We hope the legislation will have The Hon. A. J. HUNT (South the full effects expected of it. We Eastern Province) .-Unlike another have been urging its introduction for measure on the Notice Paper dealing some time and we welcome it. We with the chicken industry, this Bill has are satisfied now that something is the support of all sections of that being done. industry and the community. The Hon. H. A. HEWSON (Gipps The Hon. 1. A. SWINBURNE.-Are land Province) .-This is apparently there some doubts about the other the parson's nose of the product; measure? another measure on the Notice Paper The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-Some of deals with an earlier part of the in the processors certainly do not sup dustry. In that connexion it has been port it, but most processor associa stated that poultry growers are being tions in Victoria support the Bill now exploited by the processors. How before the House because they be ever, the Bill now being debated re lieve it will result in fair competition lates to anomalies existing in the and provide equal trading terms for processing of chickens. It has be everybody. The growers' associations come evident over the past year or and the Victorian Farmers' Union two that there has been a good deal also support the Bill because they of exploitation in the industry. This know that it will reduce unfair com measure is an honest attempt to do petition that comes from interstate. something for those who are fond of eating poultry but do not like to be The Chicken Meat Council of Aus taken down when they purchase it. tralia, which represents all sections of the industry, unanimously sup lt has been found that the water ports the measure and, of course, it content of some chickens is 18 per is a great boon to the consumers cent. or more. Tests that have been who will no longer be paying 40 cents carried out prove that this form of per pound for water. This Bill will exploitation does not happen only in further assist the industry as a whole isolated instances. Processors of in that it will re-establish some of the fresh chickens are having difficulty in confidence lost by the public in the meeting competition from the pro industry as the result of recent cessors of frozen poultry. Last year troubles. The housewife will know in Adelaide, the Australian Agricul that she is receiving precisely what tural Council was told of the position, she is paying for. Only the unscrupu and the Ministers decided to do some lous processors-and there are some thing about it. I am disappointed -have anything to gain from excess that they took eighteen months to wa ter being added to poultry. It come up with an answer, but the is unfortunate that in this highly Bill provides a good start. competitive industry one or two pro I t is designed to correct anomalies. cessors are unscrupulous, because The premises of processors must be others have tended to follow suit. As registered, and inspectors will be a result, supplies of birds have been given power to issue certificates received, particularly from interstate. which will be prima facie evidence with a very high moisture content. 2412 Poultry Processing [COUNCIL.] Bill. Processors can regulate this factor Americans when meat that was being and ensure that the moisture content exported to the United States of is kept down to the 8 per cent. America was not banned, but stan required by the Bill. Reputable pro dards were fixed at such a high level cessors welcome the legislation as to prevent our meat reaching the because it will mean fair competition, American market. These tactics may a fair deal for the housewife and the now offset the problems of section 92. re-establishment of confidence. Poultry processors in Victoria who The Bill goes further than merely were doing the fair thing by the Aus covering the moisture content of the tralian people and putting the minimum bird. Clause 14 enables regulations water content in the poultry to allow to be made prescribing information their being frozen, found competition which shall appear on the pack con coming from interstate which could cerning the presence or absence of not be stopped by the Government giblets, or any prescribed portion of because of section 92 of the Common poultry. wealth Constitution. These people also included the giblets and the feet The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVIcH.-Includ with the bird. I do not know why ing the feet of the bird. this was done except that in this The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-That is so. way the weight of 'the bird was It also enables regulations to be made increased. Some of these unfair to control or regulate the processing tactics will be corrected by this Bill. so as to prevent the addition of I do not say that I was the first other substances, and not merely to point out this problem to the Min water. These regulation-making ister, but I compliment the Govern powers will be available to be used ment on going ahead with the Bill if the occasion arises. because it is the only way open to Although there have been grave the Government to cope with section troubles in the industry, the standards 92 of the Constitution under which adopted by the major Victorian pro unfair trading from other States cessors have been extremely good. is carried on. I commend the Gov Members of the Meat Industry Com ernment on its activities in bring mittee have had an opportunity of ing down this Bill, and I hope it inspecting the major Victorian pro will work to the benefit of the cessing plants, and honorable mem broiler breeders who operate, as Mr. bers who made that inspection will Hunt has pointed out, in a highly agree that in the industry there is a competitive market. These people high degree of care, skill and hygiene, are not worried about competition, so as well as a high order of efficiency. long as it is fair. The poultry pro This Bill will help place these proces cessing industry is sufficiently highly sors on equal trading terms with the organized to process the birds in such few who have been unscrupulous in a manner that people will receive the the past. right product at the right price. I The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH add my tribute to the Government (Doutta Galla Province) .-The for bringing down this legislation, Opposition greatly welcomes this which I wish every success. measure. I recall writing to the Min The motion was agreed to. ister for Agriculture pointing out to The Bill was read a second time him that the only way in which this and committed. unfair competition from interstate traders, who were operating under Clause 1 was agreed to. section 92 of the Commonwealth Clause 2 (Interpretation). Constitution, could be stopped was to The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Min introduce a measure to control the ister of Agriculture) .-It is true t!hat standards of poultry offered for sale. some people would have liked the We received a lesson from the Bill to be introduced much earlier. Poultry Processing [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2413 About the same time as Mr. Tripovich The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-I do referred this matter to me, it was not know the reasons, but we believe also taken up by the then Minister this measure will be effective. A of Agriculture in South Australia, Mr. great deal of work has been put into Bywaters, \yho presented certain this Bill by the officers of the Law facts to the Australian Agricultural Department and veterinarians of Council. It was agreed that South three States. I pay tribute to Dr. Australia should have a look at the Wishart and Mr. Keuneman, who question, carry out some tests, and have attended to the drafting of the later come forward with a draft Bill. legislation. This is the first of this The matter dragged rather badly. type of legislation in Australia, apart There was a change of Government from that operating in Tasmania, in South Australia and, for various which has run into difficulties. I reasons, the Bill was not produced as understand that in Tasmania an quickly as it was hoped. Conse attempt was made to deal with the quently, I asked Dr. Wishart, the Vic problem by making amendments to torian Director of Agriculture, to the food and drugs regulations, as make this Bill a No. 1 priority. He distinct from introducing a special took up the matter with South Aus Act such as the Victoria Government tralia, and this Bill was drafted after is doing. final consultation between Victoria, New South Wales and South Aus This measure opens up a wide tralia, these being the States in which question; it is only a part of the it is expected that similar legislation over-all difficulty that has prevailed will be introduced in the current for a long time. It is only fair to say, spring Parliamentary sessions. and there is reason to believe, that it was not until interstate people were It is also known that Queensland involved that some local processors approves of the principles of this departed from being "lily whites". Bill and will act accordingly in the autumn session. This means a great At that time some processors in this deal. In Tasmania action was taken State became involved in this compe somewhat quickly and the water tition to sell birds. There has been a content was fixed at 5 percent. As cut-throat competition between the a result trouble has occurred in that big processors throughout Australia. State. The 'representatives of the I apologize to no one for the delay Chicken 'Meat Council of Australia in introducing the Bill, nor do I suggested that the water content should be 10 per cent., but they now apologize to anyone in connexion say that they are satisfied with a with the work that has been entailed content of 8 per cent. in endeavouring to bring about some uniformity in regard to the larger The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVIcH.-The question of uniform contracts. It is 8 per cent. is based on an interna fair that I should comment on this tional figure. question. I have endeavoured to The Hon. G. L. OHANDLER.-In bring about uniform contracts on an the United States of America a figure interstate basis. However, the other of 8 per cent. has been adopted, but States will not entertain the idea of it is interesting to note that, so far uniform contracts; this statement as I can ascertain, there is no other has been made at the Australian control in the world. There is only Agricultural Council. At a meeting in the Bill that is now being discussed Sydney last August this whole ques and the controls that exist in the tion of the 8 per cent. water content, United States of America. the proposal to introduce uniform The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVIcH.-That contracts and the establishment of would be because of our peculiar a marketing board was discussed. I constitution in this country. have in my possession a letter 2414 Poultry Processing [COUNCIL.] Bill. from the appropriate grower organ see legislation of that type in Vic ization, which has never been with toria because it would mean that the drawn, which indicates that, until Victorian market would be thrown these other discussions are com wide open to them. This Bill is part pleted, the question of a marketing of a larger scheme to bring more board should be withheld. However, stability to the poultry industry. This the industry as such would like to development will be pursued to the have a marketing board if this was utmost by me, together with the workable. officers of the Department of Agri Where a situation exists that other culture and the Crown Law author States will not agree to a uni ities, with a view to improving the form contract, one has to be existing state of affairs. The Gov extremely careful in case the industry ernment is mindful of what is in this State is destroyed. As the involved in the poultry industry. Minister, I have a responsibility to Many growers and producers are the industry-that is, to the growers financially embarrassed at present. and processors-and to the com For those sections of the industry, munity, and I have endeavoured to as well as the consumers, this Bill bring about agreement on a basis is a step in the right direction. I which will be a practicable proposi pay a tribute to the work undertaken tion, and which can be included in a in connexion with the Bill by the schedule to an Act of Parliament, as departmen tal officers, and officers of was done with the tomato growing the Law Department, particularly to industry. It is true that Mr. Hunt the Assistant Parliamentary Drafts and I think the honorable member man, Mr. Keuneman. would agree that it was with my The clause was agreed to, as were blessing-went ahead with a private the remaining clauses. member's Bill to produce this effect. There has been much discussion The Bill was reported to the House behind the scenes, and there are without amendment, and passed certain people who would not discuss through its remaining stages. these matters before but who are now prepared to sit down and talk VALUATION OF LAND about them. Much headway has (AMENDMENT) BILL (No.2). been made, but at this particular The House went into Committee stage the passing of Mr. Hunt's Bill, for further consideration of this Bill. which would impose a uniform con tract, would be premature. Much Discussion was resumed of clause work has still to be done before the 2, relating to interpretations. stage is reached where we can say, The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Mel " This is it ". bourne North Province).-When this The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-No measure was previously under con doubt, you will use your good advice sideration, the Minister for Local to induce Mr. Hunt not to proceed Government promised to consider a with his Bill. matter raised by me in relation to the Valuer-General making valuations for The CHAIRMAN (the Hon. G. J. Governmen t Departments at such fees Nicol).-It would be out of order for as may be prescribed. I pointed out the Minister to discuss Mr. Hunt's that under the measure, as drafted, Bill. there was scope for the Valuer The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-If it General to set fees below the stan became law, it would be disastrous? dard fees fixed by the Commonwealth The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-At Institute of Valuers (Victorian Divi this stage and in this form, I sion). I should like to know whether agree. The industry in New South the Minister has inquired into this Wales and Queensland would like to aspect. Valuation of Land [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] (Amendment) Bill (No.2). 2415 The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister inspection, or refuses or wilfully omits to for Local Government) .-I assure answer to the best of his knowledge or belief any such question either verbally or Mr. Walton and all other honorable in writing as the questioner may have members that the intention of the requested, or wilfully makes any false measure is to prescribe fees, includ answer or statement in reply to that question, or refuses to allow such books ing travelling expenses which at pre documents or papers to be inspected or sent are not charged by departmental extracts taken therefrom, he shall be guilty valuers, at the same level as those of an offence against this Act. charged by outside valuers. To the Penalty: $200. extent that travelling expenses are (3) Every person authorized to obtain not charged, at present departmental information for the making of a valuation valuers have an advantage over pri pursuant to sub-section (5) of section 3- vate valuers. It is difficult to prescribe (a) shall maintain and aid in maintaining in an Act of Parliament that fees shall the secrecy of all matters which may come to his knowledge, and shall not communicate be prescribed at the same level as any such matter to any person whomsoever those prescribed by an outside except for the purposes of this Act; and organization which is not actually (b) shall take such oath of fidelity and incorporated, which has no statutory secrecy as may be prescribed, and the oath basis, and whose fees are advisory may be administered by the valuer-general rather than obligatory on its mem the deputy valuer-general or a justice of bers. I hope Mr. Walton is satisfied the peace. that it is the Government's inten The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister tion as it always has been, for for Local Government) .-When this departmental valuers to charge the measure was previously under con same fees as outside valuers. In the sideration, honorable members past, some dissatisfaction has been queried the power given to valuers caused because departmental valuers in 'certain circumstances to require did not charge for travelling books, documents and papers for expenses. I shall make sure by means inspection and to take extracts from of regulations that this will not hap them. I undertook to examine this pen in future. provision. Of course, it is not new; similar provision already exists in the The clause was agreed to. Land Tax Act and, although it is not Clause 3, providing, inter alia often used, similar power is available For section 3A of the Principal Act there to land tax valuers. This Bill larF.!elv shall be substituted the following section :- results from the transfer to the "3A. (1) The valuer-general the deputy Valuer-General's Office of the land tax valuer-general and any valuer appointed valuer's section as an economy pursuant to the provisions of this Act may, when reasonably necessary for the purposes measure. That is why this provision of any valuation, enter at all reasonable has been included in this Bill. hours in the daytime into and upon any land building or premises and inspect the I emphasize that the power to same without liability for trespass, may put inspect books, documents and papers either verbally or in writing to the owner does not apply to all valuers; it is or his agent or the person in occupation or charge of that land building or premises confined to valuations made pur any relevant questions to enable the making suant to sub-section (5) of section 3 of a true and correct valuation, and may, of the principal Act. It could be in the case of a valuation made pursuant generalized by saying that the valuers to sub-section (5) of section 3, inspect any books documents and papers for the purpose who have this power are those who of such valuation and without charge take are doing a valuation of a Govern extracts therefrom. ment character; in other words, it is (2) If after being informed of the purpose restricted to those who are doing a in desiring to enter and inspect the land valuation at the direction of a Min building or premises or in putting the ques ister, the permanent head of a Depart tions or in seeking to inspect such books ment, or the principal officer of any documents or papers, and of the authority so to do, any such owner agent or person public office or any officer authorized refuses or fails to allow such entry or by a Minister, the permanent head, 2416 .Valuation of Land [COUNCIL.] (Amendment) Bill (No.2). or the principal officer. It relates will be conferred upon certain people mainly to valuations for the Stamps by this clause, is necessary. Accord Office, the Probate Duties Office and ingly, I move- increasingly for compulsory acquisi That, in sub-section (1) of proposed new tions. Honorable members may ask section 3A, after the word "to" where last whether it is necessary for valuers to occurring, the expression "paragraph (a) have this power. On examination, I or (b) of" be inserted. believe it is necessary in a limited number of cases. I point out that the This is the first limitation to which I power relates mainly to assessing not have referred. It limits the power to unimproved capital values but net an inspect books, documents and papers nual values. to those categories of valuers who are carrying out a valuation at the request The net annual valuation of an of a Minister, the permanent head of hotel property is, to some extent, any Department, or the secretary of influenced by the sales of liquor at ~n authority constituted for any pub the hotel, hence, the record of hc purpose. In other words, it will sales is important. The net annual apply to valuations not for private valuation of a licensed grocer's purposes but only for public purposes. premises is also affected by the sales of liquor on the premises. Perhaps The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Mel most important of all, the power ap bourne North Province) .-1 thank the plies in the case of subdividers, who Minister for his consideration. Hav are naturally reluctant to reveal what ing regard to the amendments pro their profits have been or the cost of posed by the honorable gentleman, their improvements. 1 have referred the Opposition believes it was justi to only three examples, although fied in bringing the matter forward. there are others. These amendments cover the situation fairly, particularly the res 1 will propose that this power triction on the valuer appointed by shall be more strictly limited in three ways, and 1 propose to move appro the Valuer-General to valuing for priate amendments to ensure this Government purposes and not for the limitation. The first proposal is to owner of the property or his legal limit the category of valuers who are representative. entitled to ask for the production of Sir PERCY BYRNES (North books, documents and papers to toe Western Province) .-1 have been categories referred to in paragraphs critical of the powers of the Valuer (a) and (b) of sub-section (5) of General. Perhaps 1 am a little allergic proposed new section 3 of the princi to his actions which, over the years, pal Act, as contained in clause 2. have increased valuations and placed There seems to be no reason why added burdens on many poor people. those persons included in paragraph Recently, 1 received a letter from (c) of the proposed new sub-section should be included, and my first pensioners who could not afford to amendment will exclude them. The pay the latest increases in rates. The second amendment will limit the kind valuer should not be given more of documents which may be required, powers without most careful con and in this regard 1 have adopted Mr. sideration. 1 accept the statement of Galbally's suggestion. The third the Minister for Local Government limitation relates to the requirement that the powers of the valuer have of secrecy of valuers, which will be been limited, and in those circum extended to every valuer who has stances 1 am prepared to accept the this power of inquiry. The amend amendments. 1 do not want to be ments will thus narrow down the harsh. power and widen the obligation of secrecy. With these additional pre The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-You cautions, 1 feel that the power, which are a little suspicious! The Hon. R. J. Hamer. Valuation of Land [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] (Amendment) Bill (No.2). 2417 Sir PERCY BYRNES.-Perhaps not The amendment was agreed to, and suspicious-that is a miserable term. the clause, as amended, was adopted, However, 1 resent the system that as was clause 4. puts people in a difficult position. Clause 5 (Amendment of No. 6653 The amendment was agreed to. section 7). The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Mel for Local Government) .-1 move- bourne North Province) .-This clause That, in sub-section (2) of proposed proposes to extend from one month section 3A, after the word "papers" the words" relevant to the making of a true to two months the period of time and correct valuation" be inserted. in which a valuer must produce a This amendment places a limitation report on his valuation to the rating on the books, forms and documents authority that employs him. How required by the valuer. The amend ever, where another rating authority ment was suggested by Mr. Galbally. requires this information, it is impracticable for the valuer to com The amendment was agreed to. ply with the request within the two The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister months unless he employs many for Local Government) .-The next typists and engages additional labour. two amendments should be bracketed He would need up to six months to together because they represent the supply the information. It would third limitation, so to speak, and their involve different information from effect will be to require every valuer that which he was required to supply who is authorized to obtain informa to the rating authority that employed tion under sub-section (1) of pro him, which in many cases would be posed new section 3A to maintain a municinal council. The valuer must secrecy and to take any oath of obtain additional information and fidelity and secrecy required of him. the valuation may relate to different I move- circumstances. 1 am informed by a That, in sub-section (3) of proposed new valuer who is faced with this prob section 3A, after the word " authorized" the lem that it would be difficult to words "pursuant to sub-section (1)" be comply with this provision. Valua inserted. tions are made every four years, and The amendment was agreed to. it is not unreasonable for the The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister period of time to be extended to at for Local Government) .-1 move least six months. That, in sub section (3) of proposed new The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister section 3A, the words "pursuant to sub section (5) of section 3" be omitted. for Local Government) .-Mr. Walton mentioned this aspect during the Sir PERCY BYRNES (North debate on the motion for the second Western ·Province) .-The valuer has reading of the Bill. The purpose of the power to ·ask about a person's this provision is to ensure that a business or property. For some time council that was requested to supply I have asked that in making a valua details for the use of another authority tion valuers should consider the earn should get to work and produce the ing or the productive capacity of a details. There have been a few property, but that factor has been cases of long delays and of neglect ignored. Valuations have been made to produce the information. On the mainly on market prices. There other hand, it is not intended to be seems no reason why high prices unreasonable. 1 have received no for some properties in a district complaints about the period of two should be the basis of other valua months, and 1 suggest that the tions. The valuer should show more period proposed in the Bill should inclination to examine the productive stand so that it can be seen how capacity of a property, and this can it operates in practice. If any diffi be done more easily when he has culties arise, the Act can be amended. access to books. I can understand that, in relation to 2418 Valuation of Land [COUNCIL.] (Amendment) Bill (No.2). a metropolitan municipality where do not normally receive such a notice, the information is produced for the nor do they pay rates. I shall propose Melbourne and Metropolitan Board two amendments, the first of which of Works on a different basis, some is to make it clear that, where the difficulty may be experienced. I owner is the person liable to pay the shall undertake to keep this matter rates, the valuation notice goes to under consideration; if it is unwork him and not to the occupier. There able I shall introduce an amending for, I move- Bill. That, in proposed sub-section (1) of section 37, after the word "to" , where The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Mel second appearing, the words "the owner bourne North Province) .-The valuer or" be inserted. returning a valuation to the rating The amendment was agreed to. authority that employs him has unlimited time because he gathers The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister information over a long period. for Local Government) .-The second He is required to produce a amendment is similar to the first, but report within two months of comple has the converse effect. Where the tion of the valuation. Where the valuation notice goes to a person who information is required for another is not the owner of the land, the authority, he has only two months amendment will ensure that the owner in which to produce the valuation. also receives the notice in case he Because of the different nature of the wants to object to the valuation. information required, the valuer has Therefore, I move- to work on a different basis, and it is That, in proposed new sub-section (1) unreasonable to expect him to pro of section 37, after the expression "levied, " duce a valuation in that time. I the word "also" be inserted. accept the assurance of the Minister The amendment was agreed to, and that the matter will be kept under the clause, as amended, was adopted, consideration, and that if necessary as were clauses 11 to 15. the Act will be amended. Clause 16, providing, inter alia The clause was agreed to, as were Section 48 of the Principal Act shall be clauses 6 to 9. amended as follows :- (a) For sub-section (1) there shall be Clause 10, providing, inter alia substituted the following sub-section:- (1) Section 37 of the Principal Act shall "(1) Notwithstanding anything herein be amended as follows:- before contained where notice of a valuation of land has not been given by the rating (a) For sub-section (1) there shall be authority which made it or which caused substituted the following sub-section:- it to be made to any person who is liable for and is assessed for the payment of any " (1) The rating authority by which the rate or tax on that land, such person may valuation was made or which caused the within two months of the receipt of the valuation to be made shall in respect of notice of his assessment object to the each rate it makes give to the person liable assessment of the value of that land on any for the payment of such rate and, where of the grounds set out in section 36. " ; such person is not the owner of the land in respect of which such rate has been levied; give to the owner- " The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Local Government) .-The amend The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister ment I propose to this clause is for Local Government) .----Paragraph simply a rewording of portion of the (a) of sub-clause (1) substitutes a clause. On consideration, the drafts new sub-section (1) of section 37 of man considers tha t the words the principal Act setting out the "assessed for the payment of any powers under which a rating author rate" are not correct. and that the ity will have to give notice of valua expression should be, "or is required tion to all occupiers, many of whom to pay." This will give a full right Valuation of Land [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] (Amendment) Bill (No.2). 2419 of objection to the person who is actions of the Melbourne and Metro required to pay, but who has not politan Board of Works. At that time received notice of the valuation. the Premier said, not to Parliament Therefore, I move- but to the public at large per medium That, in proposed new sub-section (1) of the press, that he was going to of section 48, the words "and is assessed scrap the Board, which was an un for the payment of" be omitted with the view of inserting the words "or who is wieldy political forum. Tonight, there required to pay." is before the House a watered-down The amendment was agreed to, and measure, which does nothing to the clause, as amended, was adopted, achieve the objective that the Premier as was clause 17. outlined at that time. Clause 18 providing, inter alia The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-What The Local Government Act 1958 shall be objective? amended as follows:- The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-The (b) Section 850 is hereby repealed. objective to abolish the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works as The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister it exists at present. At very best this for Local Government) .-Under para Bill could be described as a damp graph (b) it was proposed to repeal squib. Undoubtedly forces at large section 850 of the Local Government have come to bear upon the Premier Act because it was thought to be and this man, who today made all superflous. The Country Roads Board sorts of threats against the teachers has pointed out that it uses this and stated that he would not back section in connexion with the down, has backed down in respect of acquisition of land for roadmaking this matter. Because of pressures from purposes. Therefore, it seems desir inside and outside Parliament, the able that, for the time being at any Premier has completely reversed what rate, the section should not be repealed. Accordingly, I move- he intended to do in regard to the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board That paragraph (b) be omitted. of Works. This Bill does absolutely The amendment was agreed to, and nothing in the light of the Premier's the clause, as amended, was adopted, threat, "I will scrap the Board of as were the remaining clauses. Works. It is unwieldy. " The Bill was reported to the House In his second-reading speech, the with amendments, and passed through Minister for Local Government did its remaining stages. not suggest that the Board was un The sitting was suspended at wieldy; in fact, the honorable gentle 6.21 p.m. until 7.54 p.m. man made excuses and praised many aspects of the Board of Works which MELBOURNE AND METROPOLITAN the Premier found unwieldy, particu BOARD OF WORKS (AMENDMENT) larly the committee system. The BILL. Minister for Local Government said, in effect, "Nobody expects the whole The debate (adjourned from Board to make decisions. The com November 19) on the motion of the mittees make the decisions." Be Hon. R. J. Hamer (Minister for Local tween the Premier's outburst and the Government) for the second reading present time, another committee was of this Bill was resumed. set up-a special committee of the The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Mel Liberal Party. At the time of their bourne North Province).-This Bill appointments its members were the comes before the House as the " faceless men" of the Liberal Party, result of a threat by the Premier, who received so much publicity over earlier this year, when he was most a period of two or three days that annoyed with the activities and they did not remain faceless for very 2420 Melbourne and Metropolitan [COUNCIL.] Board of Works long. Of course, there were very I am surprised that the Government good reasons why the committee's has surrendered on this occasion. The members hoped to avoid undue pub Bill highlights the fact that the Gov licity of the fact that they were going ernment is subject to outside pres to decide the fate of the Board of sures. Mr. Campbell might say that Works behind closed doors. Ob Labor councils are represented on the viously they did not want to be sub Board but in the main, of course, jected to pressures from ratepayers or the Board is controlled by organiza Commissioners of the Board of tions outside the Labor Party, and Works. That statement is true. many of the people concerned are prominent members of the Liberal Let us examine what has happened Party. In view of that, it stands to since then. That Liberal Party com reason that they have a good deal mittee has been influenced by outside of influence and are able to exert pressures-from the Commissioners great pressure on the Government. It of the Board and other municipal in unfortunate that the Minister for councillors-concerning the pro Local Government should be placed posed legislation that is now before in this position after his Leader has the House. Honorable members are said that the Board should be aware that a great deal of money was abolished in its present form, and that collected from municipal councils to he should have to bring into the finance a campaign to save the Mel House a Bill which merely provides bourne and Metropolitan Board of for the Board to be under his con Works and keep it in its present form. trol. In addition, if my under The Hon. W. M. CAMPBELL.-In standing of the position is 'correct, the cluding Labor councils. Bill is to be watered down still fur ther by way of amendments. The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-Of course, it included Australian Labor According to last week's press Part.y councils. I do not exclude any an organization which calls itself the of them. The name of one Aus Metropolitan Councils Local Gov tralian Labor Party member of ernment Promotion Committee and a council-it is not a Labor which is spending huge sums of council-appears on the front of money which belong to ratepayers, a document which I have here. stated that it was basically in agree This document must have cost thou ment with the legislation. Next day, sands of dollars, and who is paying however, I understand tha t a for it? The money is coming out of the ratepayers' purse; and its pur group approached the Minister for pose is to preserve this unwieldy Local Government and made certain political forum which the Premier said submissions to him. It sought to have that he intended to abolish. However, -and, no doubt, will have-its ideas at best, all that the proposed legisla adopted to further water down the tion says is, "Let us not abolish the proposed legislation to the point at Board in its present form. Let us which it will be absolutely ineffective. put it under the control of the Min ister ". If the Minister had really On a number of occasions in the wanted to exert his influence, he past I have stated my views con could have had control of the Board cerning the present constitution of all the time. the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works, the committee sys I do not believe that the proposals contained in this Bill represent even tem and Board meetings. I have said a compromise between the view that each committee consists of be expressed by the Premier and those tween eight and nine members of the expressed by people outside. In view Board and that there are approxi of its feelings and expressed inten mately eight committees. The quorum tions concerning the Board of Works, of many of these committees is as low (Amendment) [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2421 as three members. It is possible Most of them are laymen. They are that if three members are pre ordinary councillors; and honorable sent at a meeting of a committee, members who are familiar with the and two of them have a par system which operates within coun ticular point of view, their recom cils concerning elections know that it menda tion is placed before a meeting is the man with the most friends or of the Board of 53 members. Their the political party which controls the recommendation, which appears council that decides who is to be among perhaps 70 to other 80 items elected. The representative would on the Notice Paper in very brief undoubtedly be a capable person, but form, is passed in record time. An probably would not be capable of swers to questions asked in the carrying out the duties of a position House reveal that the average which carries a salary of $13,100 per duration of Board of Works meetings annum plus many other benefits. As which deal with perhaps 70 items in the case of the State Electricity involving millions of dollars of rate Commission and other commissions, payers' funds is seventeen minutes. the chairm·an of the Melbourne and Yet this organization considers itself Metropolitan Board of Works should to be a great protector of ratepayers' be appointed by the Government. funds. That would mean that the Govern ment of the day would appoint the As a rule the establishment of com chairman, but the Opposition is not mittees is a most satisfactory way of concerned about that because the dealing with matters, but that is Government would have control over true only if full consideration is given the organization. to recommendations of the commit tees when they come before parent Only a few weeks ago I asked body. However, references in Hansard a question about the Melbourne and disclose that Board meetings last Metropolitan Board of Works, and from as little as ten minutes up to 25 was informed that the Minister had minutes and that when last checked no power to furnish the information the average was seventeen minutes to Parliament. It is true that, to a per meeting. It is an absolute dis degree, the proposed legislation grace that the Board, which deals places the Minister in a position of with public money to an extent which being able to ask for information, but makes it second only to the Govern that is not good enough in respect of ment itself, can pass such expenditure a body which controls such huge upon the recommendation of minor sums of money. It is a tragic situa committees. tion that questions asked by members As I have said in this House before, of Parliament will not be answered the whole situation should be radic if the Board does not care to do so. ally altered. I do not believe in the A number of other ,questions that I system which is now adopted for the have asked concerning the Board election of the chairman. I consider have been answered, so I do not know that the election of the chairman whether somebody has had a change from the Board's own ranks is of heart or whether I was getting hot unacceptable because, after all, there on the trail. is no certainty that any of the mem bers are capable of performing duties The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-YOU asked equal to those of a high level for a file. public servant. The salary of The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-I asked $13,100 which is mentioned in this for a file, because I was not satisfied Bill and which, by the way is the with the information that I had been salary of the present chairman, dem able to obtain up to that time. I onstrates the importance of this posi was refused the file. At the very tion which is kept as the exclusive least, honorable members should have preserve of members of the Board. had the opportunity of studying the 2422 Melbourne and Metropolitan [COUNCIL.] Board of Works file in the Library to see whether of money that is made available to everything was in order. On the the Board, it is little wonder that its one hand, at great cost to the rate projects have been well carried out. payers a firm of publicity agents In conclusion, I repeat that at the has been appointed to issue propa appropriate time I shall move amend ganda for the Board of Works and ments to provide for a reduction in to say what a wonderful organiza the size of the Board. tion it is; on the other hand, the Board has engaged a firm of manage Sir PERCY BYRNES (North ment consultants to which, up to Western Province) .-1 am most inter a month ago, it had paid $68,000 over ested in this Bill, which deals with the past twelve months to tell them one of the largest and most important what is wrong with the Board of bodies in Victoria, the Melbourne and Works. Because of the committee Metropolitan Board of Works. It is system, some Commissioners did not inevitable that the Board shall even know that the consultants had become still larger, for it is to include been engaged. In all probability, the the shires of Croydon, Knox, Lillydale finance committee dealt with the and Sherbrooke, which are to come engagement .of the management con within the metropolis for water sup sultants, and its proposal went ply purposes. It is logical that as the through with 78 other matters and metropolitan area expands more was not fully c.onsidered by the great shires will come under the authority bulk of members of the Board. of the B.oard of Works. The Board is an important organization which Why would a public organization has done much valuable work since need the services of management con its inception. It deals with matters sultants unless there was something that are the lifeblood of this State; wrong with it? The Melbourne and for example, the provision of water Metropolitan Board of Works lias supplies, drainage, sewerage and road spent $68,000 and, over the next making, and at one time I believe it twelve months, it proposes to spend played a part in town planning. In at least the same amount; in addi the past, chairmen of the Board of tion, the Board provides offices free Works have been men ofexceptionaJ of charge to the management consult ability who contributed a great deal ants. I believe there is something to the efficiency of the organization. rotten in the State of Denmark and That is not to say, however, that the that it can be overcome only by a Board of Works should carryon in thorough reconstitution .of the Board. its present form. Like Mr. Walton, At the appropriate stage I propose to I propose to move an amendment move that the Melbourne and Metro politan Board of Works shall be made which, if accepted by honorable mem smaller; in fact, I pr.opose to move bers, will reduce the size of the Board. the amendment from which Sir Henry I cannot see any argument against Bolte retreated. having a commission instead of a Board. After all, there are munici I have outlinea the reasons for palities in the Melbourne and metro which the Board of Works in its pre politan area and the Port Phillip sent form is not acceptable to the district, as I believe it is called, which Opposition. I believe that in the past deal with local government matters. the organization has done a reason The State Rivers and Water Supply ably good ,iob and has completed pro jects in a first-class manner. This is Commission deals with drainage and not to say, however, that projects water supply problems in country have always been carried out in the areas; it is an engineering authority. most economical way. After all, the The Country Roads Board, too, is an Board is a rating authority over engineering authority and controls which the Parliament has no control road-making activities throughout and, bearing in mind the large amount Victoria. The Board of Works is also The Hon. J. M. Walton. (Amendment) [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2423 an engineering authority which is en Sir PERCY BYRNES.-The Minis gaged in all the important engineer ter worthily follows in his father's ing problems that affect the popula footsteps. I mention that point tion of Melbourne, which is merely to demonstrate that the con expected to increase to 5,000,000 stitution of the Board of Works has persons by the year 2000. Members been discussed over a great number of the Country Party believe, and of years, both in and out of this have always believed, that a Commis Parliament. Would the State Rivers sion of five persons should be ap and Water Supply Commission func pointed to undertake the functions of tion so effectively if it were con the Board of Works. trolled by representatives of all shire councils in Victoria? I think there are The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-You 140 municipal councils outside the want a county council. metropolitan area. Should there be Sir PERCY BYRNES.-No, but the another Parliament to advise the Minister and I were the guests of the Commission how to act and also to London County Council when we advise the Country Roads Board? I visited England. Of course, there are believe the State Rivers and Water no State Governments in England. Supply Commission and the Country The London County Council is, in Roads Board are properly constituted. effect, a State Government; it has The Country Roads Board looks after powers over the police, education the construction of roads and bridges and other matters which are con and deals with drainage problems in trolled by the State Governments in an efficient manner. That Board is Australia. The London County Coun one of the most efficient road-con cil is not limited to engineering structing authorities in Australia; activities. In the cause of efficiency Victoria's road system is possibly one there could be no objection to a re of the most efficient in the world. constitution of the Board of Works. The Hon. G. L. CHAN'DLER.-I hope I understand that there are 53 Com you repeat that in the Supply debate. missioners on the Board of Works Sir PERCY BYRNES.-I invite the who represent various metropolitan Minister to remind me to do so. I councils. Some councils have two have great admiration for the work representatives; most of them have undertaken by the Country Roads one representative. At one time I Board in Victoria. Although I some worked out a suggested alteration times criticize some of its minor which would benefit the whole of activities, I do not criticize the tre Victoria, and particularly the metro mendous amount of work undertaken by the engineers of the State Rivers politan area, but this House did not and Water Supply Commission. There see eye to eye with me on this pro is no better constructing authority in posal. Having regard to the the world than the Commission. It history of the Board of Works, the may have some shortcomings in deal time is ripe for a change it) its con ing with people, but engineers take a stitution. In previous years legisla mathematical view of life-not what tion has been drafted along these could be called a humanistic view. lines, although it has not been People such as I try to correct them passed by Parliament. If I recall cor at times, although we do not always rectly, the father of the Leader of succeed. The engineers of the Com the House was interested in legisla mission have a world-wide reputa tion to amend the constitution of the tion and have done a great amount Board of Works. of work to make Victoria what it is today. I hope the Government will The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-That provide sufficient money to enable is so-to extend the representation the Commission to carryon its work -and I was, too. to further develop the State. 2424 Melbourne and Metropolitan [COUNCIL.] Board of Works 1 notice that a new sub-station of of the Board of Works a person the Board of Works is to be estab who was not capable and efficient. lished at Moorabbin. Perhaps that is 1 should prefer the chairman to be an important city, or maybe it is the appointed by the Governor in Council centre of that side of Melbourne. or the Government of the day than The Board intends to decentralize its for him to be elected by the loose activities by erecting sub-stations at group of councillors who are as Moorabbin and one or two other loca sembled in this "little Parliament" tions. One matter that counts in tOday. 1 could speak on this Bill at dealing with engineering problems is grea t length, and should like to refer efficiency. tc the huge sum of money that is spent by the Board annually. 1 think The Hon. H. M. HAMILToN.-Are it amounts to nearly $40,000,000. you advocating one road authority and one water authority for Victoria? The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-It was $42,000,000 last year. That is Sir PERCY BYRNES.-No, be revenue-not loan funds. cause they are two different activi ties. The State Rivers and Water Sir PERCY BYRNES.-I am sure Supply Commission is carrying on a that this money has been spent remarkably good job throughout the wisely. The Government imposes a limitation on rates which the Board ~t~te .in supplying water-not only IrngatIOn water but also town water can levy; by this means a check is kept on the Board, and rightly so. 1 ~upplies. It also supervises sewerage believe the Board should be subject In many country towns. It controls the Wimmera-Mallee stock and to Ministerial control and that there domestic water supply, which should be more control over this is unique. The Commission has huge organization than exists at plenty of work to keep it present. The Board must be given occupied. A separate body controls some guidance, and should be sub the construction of roads and the pro ject to the control of a Minister who vision of water supplies and sewerage cannot be ignored when decisions are in the metropolitan area. The Board arrived at. When the population of of Works has sufficient work to keep Melbourne reaches 5,000,000 persons, it occupied for the next 100 years. It the Board will be the most important is not desired to impinge its activities body in Victoria. 1 believe it would on to the rural side or vice versa. be a ghastly error to leave the Board However, it is suggested that the to its own devices. Board would be a more efficient or The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-You are ganization if it were controlled by a supporting the Bill. commission of five members. Sir PERCY BYRNES.-I am sup The present Commissioners of the porting the provision in the Bill which Board of Works are all courteous enables Government control to be gentlemen; 1 enjoyed their company exercised over the Board. I intend to when 1 inspected reservoirs which move an amendment which is de were under construction, and 1 signed to establish a commission of formed a high opinion of the calibre five members instead of the Board as of these men. It is fortunate that the at present constituted. Otherwise, Commissioners have had the good members of the Country Party sup sense to elect good chairmen in the port the Bill. past. However, it has been said re cently-not by me-that there may The Hon. W. V. HOUGHTON be a tendency for the Government to (Templestowe) .-1 hope the House appoint as chairman of the Board a will pardon my eagerness to Minister who wishes to retire or some enter the debate when Mr. Walton other person. 1 do not believe the concluded his remarks because 1 Government would put in charge imagined that members of the (Amendment) [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2425 Country Party might have nothing to elected and they will be able to say on the subject of the Board of exercise, through the responsibilities Works. I have to revise that opinion of Parliament, more control over the in view of Sir Percy Byrnes's Board. valuable contribution to the debate. I suppose few Bills have been The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-Mr. awaited more eagerly by those Houghton is putting up a good case persons who are interested in for the acceptance of the amendment municipal matters within the Board foreshadowed by Sir Percy Byrnes. of Works area, by the Board of The Hon. W. V. HOUGHTON.-I Works Commissioners and, evidently, have not seen Sir Percy's amendment by members of Parliament. Some and would be interested to see it. people have awaited the introduction Some people have waited for this Bill of the measure because they because they believe the Board of wondered how their status as Com Works, as at present constituted, is missioners of the Board of Works unwieldy and would be better con would be affected. Other persons stituted as a smaller body in view of have awaited its introduction because the fact that many decisions are now they agree with the Premier, and with made by committees on the advice the Country Party and the Labor of experts and dissent is not Party-I am sure the Premier will be encouraged. I am merely passing on gratified to learn that both parties what I have heard from Commis agree with him-that the Board of sioners of the Board. Works may be an unwieldy forum. Other people will be interested in In doing so, they disregard the impor the measure for completely different tant provisions of the Bill which place reasons which become evident from control of the Board of Works under proposed new sub-section (1) of Parliament and under a Minister. section 227 as contained in clause 23 Honorable members will have received of the Bill. This sub-section provides a copy of the publication by the for each municipality that has a part Board of Works entitled The Facts. of its area used by the Board for That it has been a waste of the rate different purposes-chiefly for water payers money does not really detract supplv but also in the case of from the excellence of the pub Werribee for the Board's farm-to lication. At page 3, in present receive ex gratia payments for the ing the case for the retention services which they provide for the of the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board. Payments were previously Board of Works in its present form, made under a five-year agreement, it states that in a democratically and up to the end of 1966 they were elected organization there should be calculated by a formula which took no taxation without representation. into account the amount of land in the municipality used by the Board It seems to me that the Board is of Works and related it to the total overlooking the fact that it is not a area of the municipality and then to democratically elected body. Each 40 per cent. of the rates. At the end Commissioner is elected by about of 1966, it was found that by using twelve persons. It is more to the this formula the Board of Works point to say that Mr. Tripovich is an would have to pav municipalities a elected representative who should considerable sum of money. have a voice in the affairs of the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Therefore, the Board suggested to Works as it will be constituted in the the municipalities that the whole future through the authority of the system should be altered, and the Minister and this Parliament. This provisions contained in the Bill are seems to me to be a satisfactory state a delicate compromise between what of affairs, because members of the the councils thought they should have Victorian Parliament are properly and what the Board thought they 2426 Melbourne and Metropolitan [COUNCIL.] Board of Works should have. Proposed new sub authority. Now it is also a highway section (1) of section 227 provides authority and a town planning that the Board shall pay certain authority. As constituted at present amounts to the shires of Broadford, by Commissioners, it is an unwieldy Corio, Healesville, Lillydale, Upper body, and I am not the only person Yarra, Werribee and Whittlesea to who makes that statement. It has which they have been entitled since been said in other places, and by the the end of 1966. Honorable members Leader of the Government in another will observe that the new sub-section place. provides, inter alia- The Board as at present constituted The Board shall in respect of the period has outlived its usefulness. Including of twelve months beginning with the first the chairman, it consists of 53 day of October, 1966, and in respect of Commissioners, and I agree with each of the four periods of twelve months Sir Percy Byrnes's remarks about thereafter contribute them. Honorable members can say certain amounts to the various muni what they like about the activities of cipalities. In other words, the Board the Board in the past and what will is two years behind in its contributions happen in the future, but there is only to these municipalities, and in another one redeeming feature in the Bill and three years consideration will again that is the provision that enables the have to be given to the amounts to be Minister to' take charge of the Board received by the municipalities for and appoint a chairman. Up to now providing certain services to the the Board has appointed its own Board. The Shire of Healesville is to chairman and the chairman appointed get $13,947 and the Shire of Upper is usually the person who has the Yarra is to receive $13,044. These numbers. The same principle applies amounts are to be paid because large with the appointment of Commis parts of the shires are used by the sioners by municipalities. Those who Board for the storage of water. They have the numbers get the jobs. As a are to be ex gratia payments for the former colleague of ours used to say, services which these shires provide "You have the logic; give me the to the Board for servicing the area numbers." I support Mr. Walton in used by the Board for Melbourne's what he has said about the Bill, and water supply. It is only proper that I hope when he moves his amend the users of water supplied by the ment the Government will accept it Board should make fairly substantial because it will provide the only way contributions to the work that these in which a Board of this sort can be shires are doing. I hope that when run. the matter comes up for review there The document from which Mr. will be more generous contributions. Houghton quoted may contain a lot I support the Bill. of facts, but it also contains a lot of The Hon. G. J. O'CONNELL (Mel hooey. I repeat that I hope the Gov bourne Province) .-1 support the ernment will accept Mr. Walton's remarks made by my worthy col proposed amendment to reconstitute league, Mr. Walton, in regard to the the Board. Bill. A great deal was said about the The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD Board of Works during the drought (Doutta Galla Province) .-The earlier this year, when both the Labor Party has given notice of its Government and the Board were intention to move an amendment. looking for water. Now it seems and it is obvious that members of that the Government is going the Country Party propose a similar to water. During that time the procedure. I do not know whether Premier wanted to suppress the Board the Government intends to' reject of Works and to replace it by a com the proposed amendments and if so mission. In 1891, the Board's respon for what reasons. This is the time sibilities were water supply and when the Government should make sewerage and those of a river clear what it proposes to do. It (Amendment) [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2427 seems to me that if .the Government administer its own proceedings and intends to oppose the amendments, functions, it seems that it would have it will be eating its own Bill'oj Mr. been wiser for the Minister to take O'Connell has said that {he 1I(JQvern over the Board completely and to ment has gone to water.' That is administer it under one of the offices true, and it appears that it will be within his present jurisdiction. eating its own Bill if it declines to There certainly seems to be no accept the amendments proposed. merit in taki~vlr from the Board The Bill gives an indication of the of 52 membe'rs" the authority to suspicion which the Government holds administer the Act and leaving the of the Board. It no longer trusts it Board with the same number of and no longer has confidence in it Commissioners. to carry out its responsibilities, par ticularly in two fields. The first Clause 5 deals with the appoint relates to the preparation and sub ment of the chairman. Apparently mission of substantial engineering the Government no longer has confi projects and the second to the admini dence in the Board appointing its stration of the Board. It is amazing own chairman, from within or with that the Government has no confi out, and it is proposed that the dence in the ability of the Board to administer its day-to-day affairs and appointment shall be made by the to impose charges for water and Governor in Council. The Governor sewerage facilities. Therefore, it is in Council is, of course, comprised of the intention of the Government to two Ministers plus His Excellency the put these matters under the control Governor, and no doubt the matter of a Minister. The Government also would be carefully considered by the has no confidence in the ability of appropriate Minister before being the Board's engineers to develop submitted to the Governor in Council; projects and to submit them to so there is no indication that the committees of the Board for approval. Government has any confidence in On other occasions when this any selection of a chairman that the matter has been debated, honorable Board might make. members have been informed that the committee system of the Board Clause 1° substitutes a new section functions particularly well. The pro 37A of the principal Act, which relates posals put forward by the engineers to certain resolutions and contracts are meticulously examined by com to be sanctioned by the Minister. mittees and given the seal of The Board of Works, which has a approval and imprimatur of the wonderful committee system, is com Board, which consists of 52 com posed of 52 members who have a missioners of substantial ability. All great deal 'Of collective ability, yet this Bill means is that the Govern by the proposed new section, before ment no longer has confidence in the Board regarding its ability to carry passing any resolution authorizing the out these two functions. Proposed Board to enter into any contract the new sub-section (lA) of section 4. consideration of which exceeds as contained in clause 3 of the Bill $50,000, the Board shall submit or provides- cause to be submitted to the Minister Subject to the Minister the Board shall such particulars as are required by administer this Act and shall have and the Minister, and until the Minister may exercise the rights powers and authori ties and discharge the duties conferred or gives his approval the Board cannot imposed on it by this or any other Act. enter into the contract. The proposed That means that the main administra provision indicates that in respect of tion of the Board is to be subject to such contracts the Government has the control of the Minister. If the no confidence whatsoever in the Minister does not trust the Board to Board. 2428 Melbourne and Metropolitan [COUNCIL.] Board of Works Clause 17 proposes the insertion The recent amendments effected in section 187 of a new sub-section by the Minister in respect of town (lA) which refers to projects to be planning envisage that the Board's financed from borrowings. It states, responsibilities in this direction are inter alia- to greatly increase. The question Before the Board adopts any project or arises whether those responsibili ~cheme or pro~ramme of works involving ties should be varied, and if the m whole or m part the expenditure of Board were of a different character moneys borrowed or proposed to be bor rowed by the Board under this Act the whether they would need to be B~a~d shall obtain the approval of the varied in the light of its different Minister. character. It is true that if town planning powers are left with the ~gain, this august body of 52 people Board it may be necessary to vary IS not even capable of processing a contract with a view to determining the constitution of the Board to whether it is a fit and proper contract supply the representation for town to be entered into. It can therefore planning purposes. I t may also be be seen that the Government has no necessary to vary policy in regard to confidence in four major aspects of the construction of metropolitan the Board's activities. I cannot highways and bridges. understand why the ·Government, after displaying this attitude, bothers The Premier indicated that it was to retain the 52 members on the his policy to reconstitute the Board Boar.d, except that they may be into a smaller body, and -it seems reqUIred to occupy the Commis to me that this Bill is a vote sioners' table. However, it seems of want of confidence in the Premier. that they are unnecessary, as it Mr. Walton outlined the processes appears that the Minister and the through which the Government went Governor in Council will be able to formulate what is expressed in this to manage the Board better than the Bill, and it would therefore appear Board itself. that, with or without pressures from I now come to the question of the outside, the decision was made in powers of the Board. If any proposal the Liberal Party room. That decision for a change is adopted, it may be is obviously incor1'"'l0rated in the Bill. necessary to vary the powers that The Parliamentary Liberal Party are given to the Board under its obviously made a decision in contra present Act. Many and varied sug diction to its Leader. gestions might be made in this The Hon. W. V. HouGHToN.-The regard. For instance, it has been Premier has approved of it. suggested that a State authority in respect of the conservation and The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD. storage of water as a whole should -The Premier is always making state be constituted so that water, in the ments to the press, and doing some major conservation sense, may be the thing different behind the scenes. Be responsibility of one body. To go cause the Board put up a programme further, water as such could be placed of works early in the year-in respect under the control of the State Rivers of alleviating water shortages-which and Water Supply Commission as the it believed were required for the authority in its own right. These future development of the metro suggestions are problematical, and polis, the Premier was the first to there is no clear indication of the growl about it. He said that the policy of anyone party in that Board was displaying a sense of irre respect, and until it is voiced in some sponsibility because it presented a relatively articulate form there can programme detailing additional works be no indication of a policy by Parlia for the improvement of the metro ment. politan water supply. The Hon. Samuel Merrifield. , (Amendment) [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill.. 2429 In 1958, an amending Bill took that a smaller body should be substi from the Government the right to tuted for the present large unwieldy approve, by Order in Council, of vari one. I offer my support to their stric ations in charges for water by the tures in maintaining the present Board and vested that power in the Board. Board. On two occasions the rates charged for water to the ordinary The Hon. W. G. FRY (Higin domestic user were increased but the botham Province).-It would be fair Premier was silent; he did n~t worry to say that in their comments on this about the ordinary man. However, measure both Mr. Walton and Mr. because the Board decided to increase Merrifield made a very strong attack the price for water for industrial upon the Premier. If that honorable purposes this year, the Premier came gentleman had proceeded on the ?ut with a big song about how wrong alleged statements that were referred It was for the Board to increase the to by those honorable members, it price of industrial water which was would have been a real case for being supplied to the Premier's " Jack the Giant Killer" to knock the friends. He was concerned about Premier down. However, the Premier the price of water for these people, does not act in this way. He has but when he m,ade his announcement been in Parliament for 21 years, and he did not state that his Government Premier of Victoria for a record term had given the Board power to increase of thirteen years. He has not occupied the price. On this occasion the that high position for so long and Premier has said one thing and the the State of Victoria has not pro party has done the other, and on that gressed in such a marvellous manner occasion the Government acted in economically and industrially, be~ one way and the Premier said some cause he has acted irresponsibly. thing different. The Premier did not act irresponsibly in regard to this matter, either. He By clause 22 of the Bill, which pro acted as one would expect a man of poses a new section 225A the Board his stature to act; he placed the i~ being given power to e~ter proper question before the party. Mr. Merri~ tIes t? carry out surveys, and so forth. field said that the Premier's actions ~t mIght be normally assumed that, were irresponsible, but he did not In respect of surveys of boundaries explain what this was about. I shall by a licensed surveyor the Board indicate how the whole situation would have this powe; under the came into being. Briefly, the Board Land Surveyors Act, but the Board of Works proposed that a fifteen is not given that power under that year plan should be compressed into Act and it is intended to cover the a ten-year period of work. For an situation in the same manner as is authority which spends more than granted ~o most other authorities. I can envIsage the situation where 30 per cent. of the total loan funds damage might be done. By section made available by the Federal ?87 of the Board of Works Act, there Government, to act in such a manner IS power to pay damages to any other would upset any Treasurer, or any body of a public character but there fiscal planning. is no p!ovision in respect' of private In the case in point, the Treasurer properties. The Minister should look into this matter. It seems to me that stated that he would have to control an anomaly could arise when the the Board's spending. Surely this is ~oard is given power to enter and common sense. When the Premier sInk. bores on private property. attends the Premiers' conference SpecIal approval was required in the and Loan Council at Canberra he case of the underground railway. cannot ask for and expect to get, I therefore support the comments say, $360,000,000, or whatever made by Mr. Walton and the pro amount may be desired. He' re posal advanced by Sir Percy Byrnes, ceives exactly the sum allowed Session 1968.-90. 2430 Melbourne and Metropolitan [COUNCIL.] Board of Works under the reimbursement formula. wark and that it was limiting that The Premier does not have unlimited work. The four clauses to which Mr. funds at his disposal. When an Merrifield referred all related to fiscal authority such as the Melbourne and policy. The Bill seeks to control the Metropolitan Board of Works is to spending of the 'Board and to' allaw spend 30 per cent. of those funds, it is the 'Minister to' knaw exactly what necessary for him to examine their is gaing on so far as the financial planning and know what amount aspects of the Board are concerned. this will represent in years to come. The whole question seems to boil Consequently, the Premier stated down to whether there shauld be a that he would need to exercise cammission or a Board consisting of stricter control over the Board in 52 or 53 members. Tn considering matters of finance. I have written this aspect, several statements made several letters to people-I could by the IMinister are worthy of con produce them if necess·ary-in which sideration. In his secand-reading I have said that this would probably speech, the honorable gentleman set be the outcome of the current dis· out what the Bill seeks to do. It will, cussions concerning the Board. in fact, enable the Board to' maintain The Hon. J. M WALToN.-Are you its awn internal function ·and its one of the faceless men? administration, at the same time ensuring that these functions are The Hon. W. G. FRY.-No ; I have integrated into the wellbeing of Vic a face, but certainly I am not two toria as a whole. faced. In this case I stand behind the Premier, who has spoken in a The M'inister set out five ways by straightforward manner and has which this Bill would ensure that acted responsibly. the Government's aim was success Sir Percy Byrnes and Mr. O'Con ful. First, it will pravide that the nell referred to the appointment of Board shall exercise its rights, powers chairman of the Board, but one and duties subject to the Minister important point was overlooked. NO' of the day. Secondly, it will empawer one said that certain key men were the 'Minister to exercise general not available or that Mr. Croxford supervision by ealling for such was not a good man. In fact, in information and such documents as the opening remarks of his seeond· he thinks fit. Thirdly, it will require reading explanatory speech, the the Board to submit to the Minister a Minister for Local Gavernment spoke yearly statement ·of what has hap of the excellent qualities shown by pened in the affairs of the Baard. Mr. Croxfard as chairman of the Faurthly, it will require the Board to Board. No one in the Opposi obtain the approval of the Minister tion emphasized the fact that before adopting any capital works the Melbourne and Metropalitan programme invalving the expenditure Board of Works has become one of of loan funds. Fifthly, the Bill pro the greatest authorities in Australia vides, as I have already stated, that and that the person who would be the chairman af the Board shall be chairman could well be chosen from a an appointment of the Governar in world list of applicants. There is no Council in the same way as are the reasan why this position should be chairmen of other public authorities. restricted to a small bady of men who The whole argument revolves happen to be Commissioners of the around whether the Board, as at Board. It is necessary, as is proposed present constituted, can do the job in this Bill, that the best available that is expected of it, or whether a man shall be chosen for this commission should be appainted. In important office. this regard, I shauld like to deal with Mr. Merrifield cast aspersions an the activities af two other important the Government. He said that it sus· bodies, one of which-the Greater pected the Board's ability to do the Londan council-was referred to by (Amendment) [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2431 Sir Percy Byrnes...If h~norable the slum areas of London. By set members were famIlIar wIth the ting up a pool of homes, it will be functions of that body, they would possible to m·ove people from homes perhaps agree that a board consisting which must be abolished. of many members is not too unwieldy The Greater London council is to effect matters of administration. also a parks and gardens authority When I think 'of the Board of Works, with 7,000 or 8,000 acres of gardens I recall a major project that is cur under its control. So far as sewer rently being undertaken, namely the age is concerned, the council controls south-eastern interceptor sewer, the huge quantity of 470,000,000 which is a task of great magnitude. gallons of sewage daily. It has four I should think the tunnel which is sludge vessels which convey . t~e being driven at this moment would residue to the North Sea where It IS be almost three-quarters the height of dumped. It is a refuse dispos~l this Chamber. In view of the manner authority, which handles approxI in which the Board is carrying out mately 3,000,000 tons of refus~ annu this undertaking-freezing the under ally. It is also wholly responsIble for ground earth works, and so forth-it the fire protection and ambulance is apparent that the Board is capable services in London, having about of performing big works. 5 000 firemen and 1,000 ambulances u;"der its control. It is a licensing The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-There authority, a research and insurance is nothing wrong with the Board's bureau and a scientific and supply staff. service. It controls the Royal Festi val Hall and the Art Gallery. It also The Hon. W. G. FRY.-There is con troIs the courts and the judicial nothing wrong with the people who services, and preserves national control the Board. In dealing with buildings and historic monuments. the Greater London council, I pro pose to refer to the council as Honorable members who have opposed to the staff. The Greater visited London and seen at first hand the immense transport and 'other London council is the over-all plan problems which are satisfactorily ning authority for approximately handled by the Greater London 8,000,000 people. By December of council will realize that this authority this year it is to bring down consisting of 116 councillors per the Grea ter London Development forms excellent work. Plan. The plan will lay down the principles for the future deyelop The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-Mem ment and planning of London; It wIll bers of the Greater London council are elected by the people, but Com establish the policy for the use of missioners of the Board of Works land and incorporate in it a trans are not so elected. portation plan. It is interesting to examine the diverse operations of The Hon. W. G. FRY.-There are the Greater London council. First, sixteen aldermen on the Grea ter it is an authority which is responsible London council who are elected for for roads and traffic. It controls the life. The Greater London council has speed of traffic, the roads, the authority over the Corporation of streams, tunnels under the River London and many bureaux consisting of from 55 to 70 men. It controls in Thames, ferries and, I think, some all some 600 square miles of Greater thing like fourteen bridges over the London. Until recently, the Mel Thames. It is also a housing authority bourne and Metr.opolitan Board of and, as such, is probably the largest Works controlled a similar area, but municipal landlord in the world. .It it has now become the planning is aiming to create a pool of homes to authority for an area of 1,902 square help in launching an attack against miles, which is somewhat larger than 2432 Melbourne and Metropolitan [COUNCIL.] Board of Works the area controlled by the London I should like to deal briefly with the authority. The Metropolitan Water position in Toronto. This great metro Board, which also works under the polis is about the same size as Mel jurisdiction of the Greater London bourne, having a population of council and is somewhat akin to the 2,185,000. The Greater T'Oronto coun water authority in Melbourne, con cil embraces something like nine trols 580 square miles. It is interest wards, each having four representa ing to note that, notwithstanding all tives. There are also twelve repre the huge problems for which the sentatives from outer suburban Greater London council is respons municipalities. In other words, 48 ible, the rate which is levied is 31 representatives control Greater per cent. on the net annual valuation Toronto. They are responsible system. In Melbourne, the Board of for water supply, sewerage, the Works imposes a rate of 2.5 per cent. metropolitan roads system, trans on the net annual valuation system. port, housing development, planning, The rates imposed by the Board of works and recreation, and the co Works compare favourably with ordination of educational facilities. those of the Greater London council. It would seem that, in regard to P.revious speakers have referred to those two examples-and there are the numerous committees which others-it would not be solely on function within the ambit of the Mel numbers that the suggestion would be bourne and Metropolitan Board of made that the Board of IW orks should Works. There are eight committees, be abolished. As I have instanced, in each 'Of which is comprised of between the London County council and the .eight and eleven members, represent- Greater Toronto council-particu ing a total of 74 attendances. In other larly the London authority-a large words, 52 members must make a total number of councillors work together of 74 appearances on the various com quite efficiently to control the des mittees of the Board. This does not tinies of the works of a large metro appear to be a very large number. polis. I support the Bill. Honorable members who have The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT (Mel worked on municipal councils know bourne West Province) .-Mr. Fry that all Commissioners could not be glorified and white-washed the expected to be present at any stage, Premier. The Premier was the person and it is therefore necessary to make who said that the Board of Works some allowance to enable the com was an unwieldy political forum. mittees to work. I was interested in Members of the Opposition have at Mr. Walton's statement that commit all times said that the Board should tee decisions were generally taken by be re-constituted, but, the Premier's only two or three members. I should committee has glorified those coun like to know how many committee cillors who come under the banner of meetings were attended by only two independent councillors, yet most of or three members over a yearly them belong to the Liberal Party. period. They try to change their spots like a leopard, but they cannot do so. The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-I said that it was possible that only two or I refer honorable members to a three members Gould attend a com report published in the Age news mittee meeting. paper of 8th February, 1968, under the headlines "Board's Future to The Hon. W. G. FRY.-I should like Cabinet on Monday. Bolte Moves to to know how many meetings are held Appoint Commission". It stated- with an attendance of 'Only two or State Cabinet on Monday will discuss the three members. I think the Com pos'sible appointment of a Government com missioners are a fairly responsible ·mission to replace the Board of Works, the Premier (Sir Henry Bolte) said yesterday. body of people who perform the-ir Earlier he described the 52-member Board work pretty well. as a "big unwieldy political forum." (Amendment) [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2433 His attack followed announcements by the go up to the watershed areas. It would Board that it wanted Sir Henry to lift his be interesting to know the costs to 1964 ban on taking water from the Big River for Melbourne. the municipalities of those areas. I have asked for that information on Not long ago a certain Bill was intro duced in another place, but when many occasions but the answer has members of the Labor Party and the not been forthcoming. Country Party stated their objection I support the amendment fore the Premier decided not to proceed shadowed by Mr. Walton. It is time with it. It was interesting to note that the Board of Works was recon that he did not have the courage to stituted. It was interesting to read carry out the recommendations of his the statement of the Deputy Premier faceless committee. He said, cc I will in relation to the reconstitution of get rid of the Board of Works ". the .Metropolitan IFire Brigades Board. He stated that it was the modem The Hon. W. G. FRy.-He did not trend to reconstitute the honorary say anything of the sort. He said board systems. I advise Government that the matter would be discussed. members to read Sir Arthur Rylah's The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT.-Mr. statement. Either he is out of step Fry was a head master, and he with the rest of the Liberal Party, is supposed to be intelligent. or his colleagues are out of step w'ith When the Premier knew that the the Government. I concur in the two major political parties would remarks of ·Mr. Walton in relation have nothing to do with his Bill-the to committees and meetings of the members of his party were not too Board of Works. If one were to happy; they said, cc Our colleagues carry out one's duty as a Commis and our councils are not in favour of sioner and keep up to date with the it "-the honorable gentleman ap workings of the various 'committees, pOinted a party committee, and this it would take 24 hours a day tor Bill is the result of their deliberations. seven days a week. It is time that the Board of Works was recon I was interested to hear Mr. Fry's stituted similarly to the Gas and Fuel analogy of the London County coun Corporation, the State ElectriCIty cil and Greater Toronto council. I Commission, the State Rivers and invite him to get a little closer to Water Supply Commission and the local government in Victoria. If he State Savings Bank. did so he would find that there is no similarity between the London The Hon. W. G. FRY.-The Board and Toronto systems and the Vic has a very good employment record. torian system. Mr. Walton stated The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT.-I that the Commissioners of the Board expected that comment not from Mr. of Works are elected not by the rate Fry but from his colleagues. Mr. Fry payers, but by the councils. ought to do his homework. The Hon. W. G. FRY.-My state The Hon. W. 1M. CAMPBELL.---'How ment was correct. are the councillors appointed? The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT.-It was The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT.-Mr. not correct. Mr. Fry quoted the Campbell should do his homework. If figures relating to the London County the ratepayers elected the Commis council. The services rendered by sioners, in many cases the result that council are different from tho~e would be different. I do not decry the provided by the Board 'of Works. The work of the officers and engineers of Labor Party believes the Board should the Board of Works who carry the be reconstituted to work more system on their backs. I am not efficiently from the top. This Bill cc knocking" the Commissioners ; white-washes the Premier's state what I have said here tonight I have ment that he would abolish the Board said at the Board of Works as a Com and that it was an unwieldy political missioner. All Commissioners like to forum. 2434 Melbourne and Metropolitan [COUNCIL.] Board of Works The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-He did not The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Mel say that. bourne North 'Pr.ovince) .-On a pofnt of order. The Minister is not refusing The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT.-I refer leave. honorable members to the statement which appeared in the Age newspaper The PRESIDENT.-The Minister of the 8th February, 1968. for Local Government has not refused leave; he is going to speak The Hon. W. G. FRY.-Of course, to the motion. everything that appears in the news papers is true! The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-I agree that the motion is now open for The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT.-The debate. I wished to be certain that Premier did not deny it. He described leave was not refused. The motion is the 53-member Board as an unwieldy by leave, and when it is not opposed political forum. I saw the Premier it becomes a motion of the House. when he appeared on television; The PRESIDENT.-Leave has not surely a live telecast does not lie. been refused. . It is time that the Board was consti tuted as a five-man commission to The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister enable it to work more efficiently for Local Government) .-Apparently and effectively. it is agreed that leave has not been refused. I propose to state why the The motion was agreed to. motion will be opposed by the Gov The Bill was read a second time, ernment. The proposals contained in and ordered to be committed. the Bill were arrived at after a great deal of thought and consideration of The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Mel the position of the Melbourne and bourne North P~ovince) .-By leave, I Metropolitan Board of Works. move- The Government does not in any That it be an instruction to the Commit way disagree with a number of the tee that they have power to consider statements that have been made. The amendments and new clauses to provide for the reconstitution of the Melbourne and work of the Board is an impor Metropolitan Board of Works by the sub tant activity; it is growing and it stitution of a Board of five members for will assume a most important place the present Board. in the life of Victoria. This considera tion led the Government to introduce The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister a Bill to enable the activities of the for Local Government).-The Gov Board, particularly in relation to its ernment will oppose this motion. It expenditure of loan funds and gives me the opportunity of restating revenue, as well as the general the Government's position on this activities in which it was to matter. engage, to be integrated 'and co The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD ordinated into the general financi~l ~Doutta Galla Province) .-1 rise to life and planning of this State. The a point of order. This motion is by same situation applies to the appoint leave. The 'Minister is proposing to ment of a chairman. It is recognized discuss the matter. tha t this post is becoming one of the most important in Victoria. It should The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. not be confined to any small group Garrett).-Order! The motion is by nor necessarily to a Victorian nor leave, and it is open for debate. even an Australian, but should be open to the very best men that can The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD. be obtained. -It is a refusal of leave. That is the general principle of the The PRESIOENT.-The motion is Bill. The motion, which asks the open for debate. Committee to take into consideration (Amendment) [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2435 a Board of a totally different struc Government concluded that the repre ture, runs counter to the whole prin sentation on the Board of Commis ciple of the Bill. Its acceptance would sioners from various municipalities have to be justified by compelling was of value in the work of the arguments based on some lack of per Board. The Government also con formance by the Board in the past. sidered, and this Bill carries out this We have heard nothing about that. belief, that the whole ambit of the No speaker tonight has criticized the Board's activities had to be co Board for its lack of efficiency or lack ordinated with all the other activities of planning. On the contrary, every of the State. At present they are not one who has spoken, including Mr. properly integrated or fully co Walton, has praised the Board for its ordinated as a solid proportion of past activities. Sir Percy Byrnes went the State's activities. so far as to say that it had spent The Government believes in the wisely and well. There has been a Board structure, and it is not pre happy air of euphoria about the pared to go so far as to abolish the Board's past achievements. Board in regard to its representation The House is asked to assume-it of the municipalities throughout the can only be an assumption-that metropolitan area. It is not prepared because the Board consists of 52 to have a body appointed entirely members it must be an inefficient from outside to carry out the duties organization. This assumption has undertaken by the Board. been effectively answered by Mr. Fry, Mr. Merrifield would treat rather who referred to bodies in London, lightly some important activities of Toronto and many other parts of the the Board. One is town planning, and world, of more than 100 members in another is road building; both of these some cases, which have greater activities are very much a part of responsibilities than the Board of municipal life. Works and are acknowledged to be efficient. The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD.-That was a confidence trick by the Govern It is not a necessary concomitant ment. of size that a body must be inefficient. The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-I do not Mr. Knight has been a member of one know about it being a confidence very efficient committee of the Board, trick. Town planning is an important the Farm Committee. Many efficient and growing function of the Board committees comprising men who have and should not be exercised by a com devoted a great deal of time and work mission of persons such as is pro to the affairs of the Board exist within posed by the amendments that have the Board, and they have been served been foreshadowed. The Government by engineers, whom nobody will believes that local government, criticize as being inefficient, with the through its representatives, has a very best engineering advice and part to play in the activities of the brains available to them. Like any Board. The Government does not committee of Parliament, they are accept the foreshadowed amend capable of assessing the pros and cons ments, and will oppose the motion and deciding upon a programme. The which would enable the Committee committee system is the crux of the to consider them. decision-making powers of the Board. The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. After due consideration, involving Garrett).-To put this matter in order, a full consideration of the Premier's is there a seconder to Mr. Walton's feeling that certain activities of the motion? Board were out of step with proper The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD planning, particularly financial for (Doutta Galla Province) .-1 second ward planning of the State, the the motion, pro forma. 2436 Melbourne and Metropolitan [COUNCIL.] Board of Works The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Mel The Hon. H. M. HAMILTON.-To bourne North Province) .-The Min what statement are you referring? ister has taken the opportunity of The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-It has commenting upon my motion. been quoted so many times tonight The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. that I hesitate to read it again, Garrett).-Mr. Walton has already because it makes me think some mem spoken to this motion. bers must have been asleep. The newspaper report reads- The Hon. J. M. W ALTON.-I moved BOLTE: I MIGHT SCRAP BOARD OF WORKS. the motion by leave. HE SAYS ITS' BIG AND UNWIELDY'. The PRESIDENT.-Mr. Walton The Premier, Sir Henry Bolte, said today that he was considering replacing the Board cannot speak again until other honor of Works with a Government Commission. able members have spoken. The "The Board of Works has become a big, motion was moved, but the honorable unwieldy, political forum," he said. member did not take the opportunity " It is getting hard to sort out the propa to speak. ganda from the policy. The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-On a That statement was made by the point of order, the moment I moved Premier of the State and the Leader my resolution, the Minister rose to of the Liberal Party. Tonight, the speak. I had to give him the oppor House has this watered down, .damp tunity to say whether the Govern squibbed Bill to get the Premier off ment was refusing leave, which I did. the hook, so to speak, from the state It was some time before this matter ment that he made six months or so was clarified. I claim the right to ago. The Bill does next to speak to the motion that I have nothing. If the Minister had been moved. strong, or if he had wanted to The PRESIDENT.-There has been exercise his full powers or to demand a misunderstanding in this' matter. some sort of action from the Board, As a matter of fact, I thought the Min I have no doubt that the Board would ister was rising to refuse leave, but have given its co-operation. Com he did not do so ; he spoke on another missioners from the Board have in matter. However, as there has been formed me that they are subservient a misunderstanding, I shall give Mr. to the Government, that the Board is Walton the benefit of the doubt and an integral part of the local govern allow him to speak. ment in our State, and that it is under the Local Government Department. The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Mel That may well be so, but the Board is bourne IN orth Province) .-Thank you, set up under a special Act of ParHa Mr. President. I have listened with ment. interest to various Government mem bers trying to vindicate statements Much has been said about the made by the Premier. I dislike harking Board being a democratically elected back to this matter all the time but, body, but this is not correct. Every after all, the people of Victoria expect body knows that the councillors of to hear authentic statements from the various municipalities elect Com Premier of the State. When the hon missioners to the Board of Works. orable gentleman makes a statement, Of course, these people have to be it should not be uttered lightly; it elected as municipal councillors, but should be said after a great deal of it is not true to say that the ratepayers thought. It was necessary for the elect them to the Board of Works, Liberal Party to form a private com where one can become chairman at mittee, at that time of unnamed a salary of $1~,100 per year. There persons, to formulate some other fore, by no stretch of the imagination policy against that which the Premier can the Government say that the had enunciated per medium of the Board is a democratically elected press. organization. (Amendment) [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2437 Honorable members can believe me Mr. Fry has been a municipal that there are no greater lobbyists in councillor, and so have I. It is often the world than Commissioners of the said that some people elected to the Board of Works. Before a new mem council would need to study to get ber arrives, his destiny has been into Sunbury. I believe all munici decided. The other members say, palities have at some time had "Yes, we will put Mr. So-and-So on councillors of this calibre; they have the Officers and Servants Com been elected unopposed or by acci mittee ", which is considered to be dent, or perhaps because of a split the nursery. It is a most uninteresting vote or for some other reason. one for Liberal Party members of the Board of Works, because The Hon. W. G. FRY.-Would you it deals with the humdrum job like to name some of these councils of the everyday worker and his or councillors. salary. If one happens to be a The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-I will Labor Party representative on the not be so unkind or so unfair Board, this is the first committee to as to mention names, but any which one is appointed. After a while, honorable member who has been a the other members realize that so councillor will realize that it is not many Labor men have been appointed always possible to find the right per to this committee that they almost son to fill the job. It is not easy to have a majority. Therefore, more get people to stand for muncipal Labor Commissioners are appointed councils because councillors receive a to other committees. lot of kicks and get nothing out of it. In the appointment of committees, Many capable men will not offer a great deal of lobbying takes place, themselves because they have not and the same sort of lobbying occurs the time to devote to council duties. with respect to the election of chair man. I would be the first to say The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD.-The and I have said it before-that there same thing applies to Commissioners have been great chairmen of the Board of the Board of Works ; they cannot of Works, but the State has been accept election unless they can attend extremely lucky that men of such day-time meetings of the Board. calibre have been elected as com The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-That is missioners. so. There are also capable people who The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-Good, not are not entitled to stand for muni lucky. cipal election because they do not The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-The possess the necessary ratepayer State has been lucky because there qualification. has happened to be somebody on the Board who was capable of doing the The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-There are job. However, the State runs the risk not many. of the appointment of some person who is not capable of carrying out The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-There the job. Mr. Cec. Jessop, whom I may not be many, but some are pre knew quite well, was a wonderful cluded from standing for municipal chairman. I supported the election of councils because they are not rate Mr. Ray. Trickey as chairman. He had payers. I do not want to be mis had experience in business manage understood about what I said earlier. ment in Australia and the United I say quite definitely that a great States of America. But the State will majority of councillors are sincere not always be blessed with having and hard working. In conclusion, I that sort of council representative on thank the House for granting me the Board, and we run the risk of leave to move this motion, which somebody being appointed who will has been seconded, pro forma, by Mr. make a botch of it. Merrifield. 2438 Melbourne and Metropolitan [COUNCIL.] Board of Works Sir PERCY BYRNES (North Supply Commission in the country. Western Province).-The Country In addition, the Board has other Party supports the motion. Our responsibilities, such as town plan methods may differ, but apparently ning. Because my colleagues and I 'Our parties have similar views. live in the country, it does not mean 1 have not consulted Mr. W'alton that we do not have a right to take in any shape or form. In my an in terest in the welfare of motion, which was drawn up Melbourne. Indeed, it is our duty as independently, I proposed to place members of Parliament and citizens in the Melbourne and Metropolitan to do SO'. It is obvious to anyone-I Board of Works Act the constitution am sure the great majority of mem of the State Rivers and Water Supply bers of Cabinet would agree-that a Commission. commission of five members, if The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-There necessary the most highly qualified is no collusive tendering? in the world, is essential. As Mr. Fry pointed out, the chairman should be Sir PERCY BYRNES.-There has a top man appointed out of applicants been no collusive tendering, although from all over the world. It might be our ideas are similar. I repeat that 1 possible to obtain a man of the respect the manner in which the calibre of the former head of the Board of Works has carried out its Snowy Mountains Authority. Men duties in its various fields of activities who worked for that Authority are concerning the city of Melbourne. highly qualified engineers and would The Board has had good chairmen, be suitable for appointment to the and first class engineers and officers proposed new commISSIon. The working for it. I am not criticizing Board is entering a field of unknown the Board, but I point out that it is magnitude. It will have the tremen stepping into a tremendous field. With dous task of providing water supply, the rapid expansion that is taking drainage, sewerage and roads for a place, a more efficient method of City of 5,000,000 people. A commis management is required. The present sion of the five best men available, loosely run organization and loose to work in complete harmony with control are no longer appropriate. the Government and to control all The only reason the Government is these activities, would be the best sticking to the present constitution is solution to the problem. The Country that it does not like offending a body Party supports the motion. of men who have given a lot of unsel fish and honorary service to the The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Mel community. Many of them have bourne North Province) .-1 wish to displayed great ability. However, say a few words on behalf of those those days are over and the city of people in the community who seem Melbourne is expanding so rapidly to have been completely overlooked the population is expected to reach in this debate. The taxpayers of this 5,000,000 by the end of the century State are more concerned than any that there is a tremendous amount of one else with this matter. They are· work to be done. not concerned tonight whether the Board of Works has done a good job The Government is giving the in the past or can be expected to do Board huge sums of money, far a good job in the future. Let us beyond what it has received assume that all the people who have previously, to build freeways, inter represented municipal councils on the connecting roads, and so on. The Board, to whom Mr. Fry referred, position of the Board in the city is have done a magnificent job. We are similar to that of the Country Roads not here to try those persons. Is Board and the State Rivers and Water there any reason why in this State, (Amendment) [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2439 which, despite high taxation, is crying Yallourn is not to go north of out for money, the public ownership Dandenong. Amid the great pressures of water should not be placed in the that are applied in a modern society hands of the most efficient brains -which could overwhelm us because that the community can find? taxa tion has risen, is rising and could Because water or any other com become dangerously high-none of modity is publicly owned, does that our public instrumentalities should be mean that we must drag along with under the slightest suspicion of waste old-fashioned inefficient methods? Is or inefficiency, because this affects this not the real point that Parliament us all. should be deciding tonight? It is not for us to try the Board of Works The Hon. W. G. FRY.-What would tonight. the Commission costs the community? No honorable member believes that The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-It the water supplies of this State ought would be an infinitesimal amount. to be in the hands of about 50 men. The Hon. G. J. NICOL.-Would It would be nonsense to think that a the Commission still have the power large organization such as BHP or to rate? ACI, or any large mining company, would run its affairs in such a fashion. The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-I That is not to cast aspersions on men should say so. These are the sorts who have come from the various of things that should be left to a councils over the years. This system small expert body; they should not was devised perhaps 50 or 100 years be left in the hands of a large ago, and the men concerned have amorphous mass of men, honest and done their best. Today we are faced patient though they may be. I do with different problems. Everything not for a moment expect the Govern else is changing. Why should the ment to accept the motion-of course, Board of Works and the supply of it will not, because, if I may say so water be left to horse and buggy with respect, its members have had methods? I suggest that our water fights over this issue and it has supplies should be put in the hands grown stubborn. A similar situation of five men-capable, efficient and obtained many years ago when a Bill brilliant. My colleagues and I believe was introduced into the Legislative that would be the best way to handle Council to implement a Greater Mel this public utility. We have in mind bourne scheme, which was defeated. what was done in 1919 when the Probably this idea is doomed, too, but State Electricity Commission was set I hope the House will accept it. It up to generate electricity from brown must come eventually because the coal at Yallourn. This project was cO'mmunity will demand it. The com put under the control of Sir John munity will not put up with its Monash and a small commission. The water supply being in the hands of control of our water supply could be the body to which I have referred. dealt with along similar lines. I am not here to cast aspersions I dO' not see why any distinction on the Board, but once a commission should be drawn between country and is set up the community will be city in respect of water supplies any amazed at the amount of money that more than is the case with electricity. will be saved. Surely that is impor We stand or fall together. I do not tant to' all of us. I hope this debate want to introduce a recriminatory does not turn on the narrow issue note but I was rather shocked when the Government said, "We will see whether Sir Henry Bolte was right that water from the Thompson river because, as Treasurer of this State, dO'es not come to the city." It is the honorable gentleman realizes like saying that the brown coal at after long familiarity with the 2440 Melbourne and Metropolitan [COUNCIL.] Board of Works problems that beset us that in this or not. There is a similar provision community we cannot afford to in the State Rivers and Water Supply waste money or water. I beg the Commission Act, the State Electricity House to' pass the motion. Commission Act, and other similar enactments. The House divided on Mr. Walton's motion (the Hon. R. W. Garrett in Before the Committee adopts this the chair)- piece of surgery, I urge honorable members to look at the meaning of Ayes 17 the clause to see what its effect is. Noes 15 The Government regards this clause as an important one-perhaps the Majority for the motion 2 most important in the Bill-and I be lieve such a clause to be an essential part of any Bill. I should have AYES. Sir Percy Byrnes Mr. Mitchell thOought, that, to this extent, honor Mr. Cathie Mr. O'Connell able members have sh'Own a certain Mr. Galbally Mr. Swinburne degree 'Of unanimity, with regard to Mr. Hewson Mr. Todd Mr. Knight Mr. Tripovich the proposition that the activities of Mr. McDonald Mr. Walton. the Board shOould be subject to the Mr. Mansell Tellers: c'Ontrol of the Government 'Of the day Mr. May Mr. Bradbury Mr. Merrifield Mr. Elliot. and should not be exercised independ ently. I therefore urge the House NOES. not to vote against the clause. Mr. Campbell Mr. Hamer The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Mel Mr. Chandler Mr. Hunt Mr. Dickie Mr. Nicol bourne North Province) .-With his Mr. Fry Mr. Thorn usual logic the Minister has convin Mr. Gleeson Mr. Thompson. ced members of the Opposition that Mr. Granter Tellers: Mr. Grimwade Mr. Hamilton it would be desirable that he, or who Mr. Gross Mr. Houghton. ever happens to be Minister for Local G'Overnment at a particular time, PAIR. should have some degree of control, Mr. Clarke I Mr. Byrne. even over a Commission, and fOor that reason members of the Opposition The Bill was committed. will not vote against the clause. Clauses 1 and 2 were agreed to. The clause was agreed to. Clause 3 (Amendment of No. 6310, s.4). Clause 4, providing, inter alia After section 4 of the Principal Act there The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Mel shall be inserted the following sections:- bourne North Province) .-1 shall " 4A. In the administration of this Act vote against this clause, Mr. Chair the Minister shall be entitled at all times- man. The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister 4B. (1) The Minister may at any time in writing request the Board to propose in for Local Government) .-Now that writing a scheme with respect to any par Mr. Walton has signified his intention ticular matter or for carrying out any matter of voting against the clause, I point of general policy specified by the Minister out to the Committee that all the and if the Minister approves of any such clause does is to require the Mel proposal he may direct the Board to take all bourne and Metropolitan Board of necessary steps to carry out the proposal. Works to exercise its functions sub (2) Any question difference or dispute arising between the Minister and the Board ject to the Minister. This seems to with respect to any such proposal may be me to be independent of whether the finally and conclusively determined by the Board is, so to speak, a Commission Governor in Council." (Amendment) [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2441 The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for the Board to protest against a for Local Government) .-1 move- decision and that the Governor in That, in proposed section 4B, the follow Council should decide the matter. in~ expression be omitted:-" and if the This is a common provision in many Mmister approves of any such proposal he statutes. All the amendment does is may direct the Board to take all necessary steps to carry out the proposal. to rephrase this particular portion of (2) Any question difference or dispute the Bill so as to give greater flexibility arising between the Minister and the Board and to allow for the resolving of a with respect to any such proposal may be dispute between the Board and the finally and conclusively determined by the Minister as to the carrying out of a Governor in Council" with the view of in serting- scheme or proposal if such dispute "(2) The Minister may approve or dis should arise. 1 believe the provision approve the scheme proposed by the Board as drafted in the Bill is too arbitrary or may approve the scheme so proposed and that there should be this flexi subject to such variations as he thinks fit. bility. (3) Subject to sub-sections (4) and (5) the Board shall give effect to the scheme The amendment was agreed to, and as approved by the Minister. the clause, as amended, was adopted. (4) Where the Board is dissatisfied with Clause 5, providing, inter alia- the variations made by the Minister the For section 21 of the Principal Act there Board may within 30 days of the approval shall be substituted the following section:- of the scheme by the Minister apply in cc 21. (1) The Governor in Council shall writing to the Governor in Council to dis appoint a chairman of the Board who allow or to alter any variations made by shall be paid a salary at the rate of the Minister and the decision of the Governor $13,100 per annum or at such other rate in Council on the application shall be final as is from time to time determined by the and conclusive." Governor in Council. Honorable members will see that this (2) The chairman shall be entitled to clause defines the relationship of the hold office for a term of four years unless sooner removed and shall be eligible for Minister with the Board. After look re-appointment. ing at the proposed amendments, 1 (3) The Governor in Council may at believe no party will object to this any time accept the resignation o'f the clause being in the Bill. 1 think it is chairman and may remove the chairman from his office if he is absent from Vic necessary, whatever the structure of toria for a period of six consecutive the Board may be, because it allows months or is absent without the consent the Minister of the day to have direct of the Board from all ordinary meetings communication with the chairman or of the Board for a period of eight weeks." the secretary, to see documents, to The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister require the preparation of informa for Local Government) .-1 propose tion, and so on. Proposed section 4B to move- enables the Minister to ask the Board That, in sub-section (1) of proposed to propose a scheme with respect to section 21, after the words" Governor in any particular matter or to carry out Council", the words cc after conSUltation any matter of general policy. If the with a committee of not more than three members of the Board appointed by the Minister approves of any such pro Board to consult with the Minister on the posal, he may direct the Board to appointment of a chairman" be inserted, carry it out. and- That in sub-section (3) of proposed Sub-section (2) of proposed sec section 2.1, the words cc all ordinary meet tion 4B makes provision for the ings of the Board for a period of eight resolution of any difference or weeks" be omitted with a view to inserting dispute about the proposal. It has the words "four consecutive regular meet been pointed out-I think logically ings of the' Board". that, if the Minister directs the Board These amendments result from repre to take necessary steps, a difference sentations made to the Government cannot arise because the Board has by members of the Board. to carry out the direction. This The CHAIRMAN (the Hon. G J. provision goes a little further than Nicol).-That question must be de was intended. The intention was that cided before any amendment is pro there should be a reasonable chance posed. 2442 Melbourne and Metropolitan . [COUNCIL.] Board of Works Sir PERCY BYRNES (North Although Mr. Walton's proposed new Western Province) .-1 invite honor clause and mine do not run abso able members to vote against the lutely on parallel lines, we propose a clause. new clause which provides for a The Hon. W. V. HOUGHTON board of five members. Members of (Templestowe Province) .-1 wish to the Country Party cannot support raise a point of order. If the clause clause 5, and ask honorable members is amended as proposed, it may be to vote against it. When the Bill acceptable. Would it not be proper goes to another place the Minister's to put the amendments first? amendments may be moved there. The CHAIRMAN (the Hon. G J. We cannot accept the amendments Nicol).-In view of the point of order he has foreshadowed because they raised, the Minister might proceed would be part and parcel of a clause to explain his amendments, and then which we desire to omit. it will be for the Committee to vote The Hon. G. w. mOM (South for or against the clause as amended, Western Province) .-1 am surprised if the amendment is accepted. that Mr. Walton did not rise. The The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister Minister's amendments are in con for Local Government) .-1 realize formity with a reasonable approach that it has been foreshadowed that to the problem, and 1 support the there will be a vote against the amendments. clause, but 1 still desire to submit Th~ CHAIRMAN (the Hon. G. J. the amendments. 1 had already Nicol).-I shall test the feeling of the outlined those amendments, and 1 Committee on the question that the was about to say that they result first two lines of clause 5 stand part from a deputation of members of the clause. If that question is of the Board, including members negatived of course the whole clause of the Labor caucus, who asso is nega tived but if agreed to the ciated themselves completely with Minister may then proceed to move the represen tations and asked that, his amendments. in the appointment of a chairman of the Board, the Board should have The Committee divided on the some entitlement to be consulted. question (the Hon. G. J. Nicol in the They pointed out that the chairman chair)- might come from anywhere, that he Ayes 14 had to preside over a large number Noes 17 of Board members and a large num ber of committees and that it was Majority against the reasonable that the. people who clause 3 would serve under him should at AYES. least be consulted. That is not to Mr. Byrne Mr. Houghton say that they were necessarily Mr. Campbell Mr. Hunt to be asked to make a nomina Mr. Dickie Mr. Thorn Mr. Gleeson Mr. Thompson. tion or anything of that kind, Mr. Grimwade but they wanted written into Mr. Gross Tellers: the Act a right to be consulted. Mr. Hamer Mr. Fry As it is impossible to consult with 53 Mr. Hamilton Mr. Granter. individuals, the effect of the amend NOES. ments is to allow them to appoint, if Mr. Bradbury Mr. Merrifield they wish, three representatives with Sir Percy Byrnes Mr. Mitchell Mr. Cathie Mr. Swinburne whom consultation may be held in Mr. Elliot Mr. Todd order to enable some agreement to Mr. Galbally Mr. Tripovich be reached if possible as to who the Mr. Knight Mr. Walton. chairman would be. Mr. McDonald Tellers: Mr. Mansell Mr. Hewson Sir PERCY BYRNES (North Mr. May Mr. O'Connell. Western Province) .-There cannot PAIR be a conflict of appointments. Mr. Chandler \ Mr. Clarke. (Amendment) [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2443 Clauses 6 to 9 were agreed to. principal Act contains a provision Clause 10, prDviding- relating to this matter, but 1 have been unable to locate it as yet. 1 shall give For section 37A of the Principal Act there shall be substituted the following section :- Mr. Merrifield the authority for it as " 37A. Before passing any resolution for SODn as 1 can find it. or towards authorizing the Board to enter into any contract the consideration of which The clause was agreed to, as were exceeds $50,000 the Board shall submit or the remaining clauses. cause to be submitted to the Minister such particulars as are from time to time required The CHAIRMAN (the Hon. G. J. by the Minister to be submitted to him by the Board with respect to such contracts Nicol).-There are two prDpDsed new and no contracts made by the Board the clauses, one prDpDsed by Mr. Walton consideration of which exceeds $50,000 shall and the other by Sir Percy Byrnes. have any force or effect unless sanctioned The new clause circulated first was by the Minister." that proposed by Mr. WaltDn. As The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister there is a similarity in the first two fDr Local GDvernment}.-1 move-- paragraphs of each propDsed new That, in proposed new section 37A, the clause, 1 shall call Dn Mr. Walton to words " passing any resolution for or move his new clause first. If this is towards authorizing the Board to enter" be agreed to 'in the affirmative it wHI omitted with the view of inserting the word autom·atically supersede the new "entering ". clause propDsed by Sir Percy Byrnes, This is really a slight rewording. The but Sir Percy will subsequently have proposed new sub-section as drafted the oPPDrtunity of mDving amend provides that before passing any ments to the new clause proposed by resolutiDn fDr or tDwards authDrizing Mr. Walton. the BDard to. enter into. any cDntract under certain conditions the BDard Sir PERCY BYRNES (North must obtain the CDnsent of the Min Western Province) .-1 have examined ister. This wDrding is clumsy and both propDsed new clauses and I restricts the BDard because it is cDuld not substitute Dne section of necessary fDr it to' obtain tenders in Mr. WaltDn's new clause fDr mine. some cases and to make a decisiDn 1 wDuld prefer the cDnstitutiDn that Dn which tender it finally pr.opDses to is propDsed in my new clause, but accept. All that is really necessary Mr. Walton has the right to move is to' prevent the Board frDm actually his new clauses and, if he chDDses to entering intO' a cDntract before getting do SO', members of the CDuntry Party the approval of the Minister, and that will support him. 1 could not move is the effect 'Of the amendment. an amendment to' Mr. WaltDn's pro The amendment was agreed to, and pDsed new clause without mDving that the clause, as amended, was adopted, the whole of the clause be deleted, as were clauses 11 to' 21. and the whDle Df mine be inserted. Clause 22 (PDwer Df entry to make AlthDugh the two prDpDsed new surveys and investigations). clauses are wDrded differently, they have the same Dbjective. One follows The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister the constitution of the State Rivers fDr Local GDvernment}.-During the and Water Supply CommissiDn and second-reading debate Mr. Merrifield the other propDses a constitution for raised the questiDn Df the pDwer the separ.ate appDintment of the in propDsed new section 225A, as chairman and members. Although contained in clause 22, to enable they arrive at the same objectives Dfficers Df the BDard to enter Dn land they do nDt mix. in the day time for the purpose of making surveys and investigations The CHAIRMAN.-I take ,it that Sir and fDr drilling bDres for testing sDil Percy Byrnes does nDt pfupDse to cDnditiDns. Mr. Merrifield wanted to prDceed with his new clause if Mr. know whether damages and com WaltDn's propDsed new clause is pensatiDn wDuld be payable. The accepted. 2444 Melbourne and Metropolitan [COUNCIL.] Board of Works The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Mel incapacity inability inefficiency mismanage ment or misbehaviour or refusal or neglect bourne North Province).-I propose or failure to carry out any of the provisions the following new clause to follow of this Act or his duties; and a full state clause 2:- ment of the cause of such suspension shall A. For sub-sections (2), (3), (4), and be laid before both Houses of Parliament (5) of section 4 of the Principal Act there within seven days after the commencement shall be substituted the following sub of the next session thereof; and if an sections :- address at any time during that session is presented to the Governor by the Legislative "(2) Subject to this Act the Board shall Council or the Legislative Assembly praying administer this Act and shall have and for the restoration of the member to his may exercise the rights powers and authori office, he shall be restored accordingly; but ties and discharge the duties conferred or if no such address is so presented, the imposed on it by this or any other Act. Governor in Council may confirm such (3) The Board shall consist of- suspension and declare the office of such member to be and the office shall there (a) a chairman appointed by the Gov upon become and be vacant. ernor in Council who shall be paid a salary at the rate of $13,100 per annum or at (10) In case any member of the Board such other rate as is from time to time is appointed chairman thereof he shall determined by the Governor in Council; and thenceforth be a member of the Board by virtue only of his office of chairman and (b) four full-time members appointed by his office of member shall become vacant the Governor in Council one of whom shall and another person shall be appointed in be appointed as deputy chairman and who his stead. shall be entitled to be paid such salary as (11) Vacancies created by members of is from time to time determined by the the Board vacating their seats shall subject Governor in Council. to the provisions of this Act be filled by (4) The persons so appointed and their appointment made by the Governor in successors from time to time shall be a Council. body corporate by the name of the" Mel (12) During their continuance in office bourne and Metropolitan Board of Works" the chairman and the appointed members and by that name shall have perpetual of the Board shall devote their whole time succession, and shall adopt and use a to the service of the Board and shall not common seal with power to break alter and engage in any employment other than in change the same from time to time with connexion with the duties of their office, the approval of the Governor in Council, nor shall they during such continuance be and may sue and be sued, and shall have members of Parliament or of any municipal power to purchase take hold sell lease take council. on lease exchange or dispose of land or property for the purpose of this Act and (13) The chairman holding office subject to the restrictions therein contained. immediately prior to the commencement of the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of (5) All courts and persons acting judici Works (Amendment) Act 1968 shall be ally shall take judicial notice of the common entitled to continue in office subject to this seal of the Board affixed to any document Act after such commencement for the and shall until the contrary is proved pre remainder of the term for which he was sume that such seal was properly affixed appointed but all members of the Board thereto. holding office immediately prior to the said (6) The members of the Board shall be commencement shall go out of office upon entitled to hold office for a term of four the said commencement. years unless sooner removed and shall be (14) For all the purposes of this Act the eligible for re-appointment. Board shall be deemed to be the same Board (7) The Governor in Council may at after the commencement of the Melbourne any time accept the resignation of a member and Metropolitan Board of Works (Amend of the Board and may remove a member ment) Act 1968 as before the said com from his office if he is absent from Vic mencement notwithstanding any change in toria for a period of six consecutive months the constitution of the Board. " or is absent without the consent of the Board from four consecutive regular meet The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister ings of the Board. for Local Government).-For the (8) The Governor in Council may remove reasons already given at some length, any member from his office on an address the Government cannot accept the praying for such removal being presented proposed new clause. It relates to the to the Governor by the Legislative Council and the Legislative Assembly. setting up of a commission in place (9) At any time when Parliament is of the present Board, and the Govern not sitting the Governor in Council may ment does not agree that this is an suspend any member from his office for appropriate action. (Amendment) [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2445 The Committee divided on the The Hon. H. A. HEWSON (Gipps proposed new clause (the Hon. G. J. land Province).-This is an amended Nicol in the chair)- version of the original Bill on this Ayes 17 subject, and I am indebted to my Noes 14 Parliamentary colleagues who, with the co-operation of the Minister for Majority for the new Fuel and Power, have been instru clause 3 mental in having it drafted. My colleagues, Mr. Swinburne and Mr. AYES. B. J. Evans, the honorable member Mr. Bradbury Mr. Merrifield for Gippsland East in another place, Sir Percy Byrnes Mr. Mitchell and I spent considerable time in Mr. Cathie Mr. O'Connell arriving at an acceptable measure, Mr. Elliott Mr. Swinburne. Mr. Galbally Mr. Tripovich which would be fair to all municipal Mr. Hewson Mr. Walton. ities throughout the State as well as Mr. Knight Tellers: to the State Electricity Commission. Mr. Mansell Mr. McDonald Mr. May Mr. Todd. The history of the State Electricity Commission provides a picture of NOES. complete self-confidence in that, Mr. Chandler Mr. Houghton Mr. Dickie Mr. Hunt constitutionally, the Commission has Mr. Fry Mr. Thorn been a Government utility without Mr. Granter Mr. Thompson. Government control. The Commis Mr. Grimwade sion was given its own charter Mr. Gross Tellers: Mr. Hamer Mr. Campbell by statute in 1918, and has been Mr. Hamilton Mr. Gleeson. allowed to expand as a power generating authority in this State. It PAIR. has proved itself capable and efficient Mr. Clarke I Mr. Byrne. within its original charter to provide The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Mel the State with the power that has been bourne North Province).-I propose necessary to provide amenities for the following new clause to follow the community, facilities for industry, clause 4:- light and power for municipalities, 4B. Sections 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 16, and so on. The Commission has 17, 18, 19, and 22 of and the Third and demonstrated its independence by Fourth Schedules to the principal Act are honouring its charter and providing repealed. these facilities. The new clause was agreed to. In 1918, when it was laid down The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Mel that this authority should be in bourne North ·Province).-I propose dependent of Government control, the following new clause, to follow the Government of the day did not clause 4:- see fit to exempt the Commission 4c. Section 21 of the principal Act is from municipal rating, but it was al repealed. ways assumed by the municipalities and by successive Governments that The new clause was agreed to. it would be exempt. Accordingly, The Bill was reported to the the Commission's premises have House with amendments, and passed never been rated. In my view, the through its remaining stages. Bill is completely out of order at this time because the Commission should STATE ELECTRICITY have been exempted from rating COMMISSION BILL. under the Local Government Act, The debate (adjourned from Nov thus being brought into line with ember 28) on the motion of the other instrumentalities of the State Hon. R. J. Hamer (Minister for Local which are exempted from rating Government) for the second reading under the Act. I t would be more of the Bill was resumed. appropriate if a Bill to achieve this 2446 State Electricity [COUNCIL.] Commission Bill. purpose was brought down in the council to collect rates and for it not form of an amendment to the Local to be asked to return the money thus Government Act. Since the High collected, though the Bill provides Court decision made it certain that that the Commission shall be deemed the State Electricity Commission was never to have been rateable, it is good Hable to be rated, I have spent enough for the Morwell council to many hours with officers of various have its slice of the cake. In a letter municipalities in an endeavour to addressed to me, the secretary of the find a solution to the problem where Morwell Shire Council, Mr. R. J. by the municipalities would not have Lord, clearly outlined where it stood to negotiate, from time to time, the and why it acted as it did. I shall not amount of money they were to read the whole letter, but the receive either in lieu of rates or extracts which I shall quote are as an ex gratia payment. I have relevant to the Bill. It reads- endeavoured to find a formula with We ask you, as our honorable member which to determine the approp for this province to bear in mind that we riate amount on a proper basis. are, and will be, one of the very few munici palities in Victoria, and the only one in the The Bill, as drafted, determines that country to suffer substantially as a result basis because it prov,ides that all of the great discoveries of oil and gas in State Electricity Commission offices Bass Strait. We are scheduled to lose a $10 that are combined with trading million industry next year when the Lurgi Gassification Plant closes but more import centres, together with similar busi antly we have people who are to be made nesses operating in the same area redundant and we have a genuine concern shall be liable to be rated. for the welfare of our people. I know that you will understand the Clause 3, which inserts a new sec righteousness and justice of Morwell's action tion 10SA in the principal Act, makes in rating the State Electricity Commission. definite provision that the State We find it necessary to do this. We are in fact under a statutory duty to rate all Electricity Commission shall not pay lands deemed to be rateable. As the admini rates and shall be deemed never to strator of this municipality I have no right have paid rates. I accept that provi to exempt myself from rating or to exempt sion, but I should like to know why my friends from rating. the Minister, in his second-reading The High Court of Australia deems the State Electricity Commission to be rateable speech, stated that it was not in many respects and as such we are dis intended that the South Melbourne charging the powers and responsibilities City Council should be asked to vested in us by Parliament. return what it had received by the sheriff's order. This measure is be The 'Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD.-The ing pushed through the House Morwell Shire Council took no action although the Minister's second-read in that regard. ing notes implied that there was no The Hon. H. A. HEWiSON.-Yes, it intention on the part of the State did. I do not propose to argue on Electricity Commission to recoup the that point, however, as it is irrelevant. rates that have been collected by the It is well known that the Morwell South Melbourne City Council. This council took action, but whether it Bill will have a discriminatory effect did so following the action of the because the M·orwell ,Shire Council South Melbourne council is beside the has issued a rate notice to the State point. The letter ,continues- Electricity Commission. It would be wrong of us to do otherwise. We are not being greedy. We are simply The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT.-The discharging the duties reposed in us under the Local Government Act. You will under Morwell council withdrew its rate stand therefore, that we have a very diffi notice. cult problem in front of us. The Hon. H. A. HEWSON.-The I am also enclosing copies of the Supreme council withdrew its court action, but and High Court judgments in the case of not the rate notice. If it is good City of South Melbourne and the State enough for the South Melbourne Electricity Commission. State Electricity [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Commission Bill. 2447 I also enclose for your own information It is our belief that the Minister and the and the information of your colleagues, a Commission, having failed to seek an injunc copy of a letter received from the Municipal tion to restrain the City of South Melbourne Association of Victoria which has been and therefore to seek an appeal to the addressed to Local Government generally Privy Council ought to accept the decision and advises that the Legislative Committee of the High Court. of the Association opposes this Bill and It would be good enough for us. The invites councils to express their views to circumstances in which we find ourselves Parliamentary members for the district on placed today as a country municipality are the measure before Parliament tomorrow. unfortunate and regrettable. I mentioned to you yesterday on the tele The Hon. G. W. THoM.-Are you phone that the vital information promised to this council by the State Electricity Com making your own speech, or are you mission's Secretary, to whom I was referred quoting someone else? by the Honorable the Minister for Fuel and Power, has not been received by me so it is The Hon. H. A. HEWSON.-I am difficult for me to advise my council on vital reading a letter from the secretary of matters concerning the effect of this legisla the Shire of Morwell, who outlined tion and in my opinion, this is a good reason why the Government ought to abandon this his council's opinion concerning the piece of legislation. position which existed at that stage. I understand there is to be a Bill intro The points that he made are relevant duced by the Minister for Local Government and in order because at the time the Boon to adjust other anomalies of rating High Court had ruled that the State instrumentalities of the State. Electricity Commission was rateable. I fail to see why the Government cannot As a responsible 'Officer and adminis drop this unfortunate Bill now and have tra tor of a shire council, the Morwell the State Electricity Commission matter much more carefully examined before rush shire secretary was duty b'Ound ing legislation through the Parliament when under the Local Government Act to major court actions are pending. carry out the regulations and rules I interpolate at this stage to point out relating to local government. that this letter was written before the The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT.----He amendments proposed by my col should have done that earlier. leagues and me were accepted by the Minister. The Hon. H. A. ;HEWSON.-I am not arguing on that aspect. Mr. Lord I would like you to know that my Council does not want to sue the Government. It goes on to say- does not like doing this. It is forced to do We do not wish to be engaged in dragging it. The Honorable the Minister for Fuel the State Electricity Commission through and Power believes the High Court decision the courts. There has been a long and happy is wrong and that we are wrong, and that and beneficial association between this in the fullness of time retrospective legisla municipality and the State Electricity Com tion will be enacted to make certain that mission for many years, and so, we turn to the High Court of Australia is wrong, and you, the Parliamentary Country Party and that the Morwell Shire Council and other ask you please to see to it that the rights and the powers and the responsibilities Councils carrying out their statutory duty vested in us, under the Local Government, to rate all rateable properties are wrong. Act, and upheld by the High Court of Mr. Balfour feels that the whole thing Australia shall not be taken from us. has about it a Gilbert and Sullivan touch. Those of us in Local Government with due Mr. Balfour'S argument about Street regard for the dignity of Government at all Lighting is not at all strong. Just how great levels do not consider that warrants for the is this concession? Ratepayers here in seizure of goods and chattels by the third Morwell pay the whole cost of lighting the Princes Highway. We keep all street lights arm of Government against the second arm burning throughout the hours of darkness of Government is Government conducted as a service to the 22,000 citizens of this on the highest moral plane. shire and visitors to the area. The Minister's own argument on this issue of street light It will be a sad day if after retrospective ing is not at all convincing. Last financial legislation is enacted the sheriff moves again year we paid the State Electricity Commis to seize the money or the goods and chattels sion $22,949.42 for street lighting and light of the third arm of Government simply and power for Council properties. This because the State Electricity Commission amount is greater that the Commission's considers itself to have been compelled to ex gratia contribution of $17,500. All pay a municipality its rates under duress. councils studying the Minister for Fuel and 2448 State Electricity [COUNcn..] Commission Bill. Power's statement on street lighting in advised by the secretary of the Muni Hansard, 1st October, 1968, may ask-just cipal Association that they should how big is the concession on street lighting. oppose this Bill on the grounds of the There is so much more that could be said but we will be content to leave this court's ruling. It was the duty of matter to the good judgement of you and the Municipal Association to point your parliamentary colleagues. out to councils that their ad That is where the matter stands at ministrative officers were required this stage. It has been left to the to carry out the regulations. It is good judgment of my colleagues and generally accepted by the majority myself. I have made it clear that I of people living in the Latrobe Valley have never held the opinion that the that the establishment of the State State Electricity Commission should Electricity Commission and other have been rated on any thing other large public utilities, namely, the than its trading premises and adminis Gas and Fuel Corporation, are vital trative premises wherever they are to the welfare of the Latrobe Valley. operated on a combined basis. I have had the opportunity of can vassing many people throughout the I made it clear to the Morwell shire Latrobe Valley and I know their re secretary that I would submit ·a case actions on the question whether or not f.or the shire-the council was the properties of the State Electricity entitled to have a case submitted on Commission should be rated. The its behalf-but I also made it clear people are aware of the important that this would not be my personal role played by the Commission in the opinion. Having submitted a case oOn development of the area, and are behalf of the Morwell shire Council, unanimous that the public relations of I presume that I am now at liberty the Commission are extremely good. to express my opinion concerning The State Electricity Commission has this legislation. I believe street light contributed to the welfare of the area ing is a m·atter which could be dealt in which it operates, and the people with at a later stage, or perhaps the appreciate the assistance that it has Minister who is handling this Bill given to the various organizations. could indicate where we stand on this matter. It is unfair that muni The Country Party believes that cipalities should bear the cost of this measure has been given careful street lighting on public highways consideration, and that the Commis and main roads. This would be all sion should not be a rateable utility. right if all municipalities were on It is unfortunate that the Govern the same basis, but in some districts ment did not take steps to ensure this there are many more towns along position. It was possibly self-confi highways than in others, and a dence on the part of the Commission formula should be worked out where that it did not ensure that it should by the State Electricity Commission not be rated. My party is in favour and the Country Roads Board could of this measure, and I see no reason make a contribution on a more equit why Government instrumentalities able basis than at present. should be rated. I had hoped to The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT.-Would elaborate on the 3 per cent. turnover the New South Wales formula be tax levied on the Commission by the satisfactory? Government. This was a clear indica tion that the Commission was not The Hon. H. A. HEWiSON.-It under Government control and woOuld be better than the one which therefore the Treasurer wanted to operates in Victoria. I should like to place on record my appreciation have a " whack" at it. That tax must for the co-operation oOf the Minister have repercussions on the charges of for Fuel and Power during a very the Commission because a consider trying period, when all councils able sum of money has been collected throughout the State had been from this source. State Electricity [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Commission Bill. 2449 The Hon. W. M. CAMPBELL.-What the conditions of the Bill, the Commission will be exempt from rating except in respect is the alternative? of premises where the business of trading The Hon. H. A. HEWSON.-If the in electrical appliances is conducted. Commission is not deemed to be . The Government at present is inquiring rateable then it should not be taxed mto the problem .of non-rateable property, yet at the same tIme has seen fit to intro either. duce legislation to exempt from rating a State undertaking which the highest legal The Hon. W. M. CAMPBELL.-What tribunal in Australia unanimously held to is the alternative so far as revenue be rateable. is concerned? .In opposing the Bill, the Legislative Com The Hon. H. A. HEWSON.-I am mIttee of the Municipal Association of Vic toria, points out its concern of the growing not here to work out alternatives for number of non-rateable properties which the Government. No particular in over a period of years the State Government strumentality should be selected to has shown a surprising inability to tackle make up the deficit in a Budget. It compared to the haste in attempting t~ negate a successful action by a Council was the policy of former Govern against a State undertaking to pay rates. ments not to rate or tax Government Council completely endorses the actions instrumentalities, and that policy of the Association and asks your support should be continued so far as the in opposing this Bill. State Electricity Commission and the Gas and Fuel Corporation are con I reiterate my opposition to clause 3. cerned. It is anomalous that municipalities should be deprived of the right to col The Hon. G. J. O'CONNELL (Mel lect rates from businesses or resi bourne Province).-The 'Government dences that have been taken over by has introduced this Bill because of a Supreme Court decision that the City the Commission. Some of these of South Melbourne was entitled to properties have been rateable to the levy rates on property owned by the municipality for years. Some munici State Electricity Commission in that palities are penalized more than municipality. The Commission was others, and this is particularly so in not satisfied with the decision, and respect of the Richmond City Coun it appealed to the High Court, which cil. decided that the City of South Mel bourne was within its rights in charg The State Electricity Commission ing rates to that instrumentality. is one of the largest property owners in Richmond; it has property assets Every honorable member has re to the value of $4,000,000. Its net ceived letters from municipalities ask annual valuation is $200,000 which, ing them to oppose this Bill. I have at the current figure of 12.5 cents in received a number of them but I pro the $1, would, if rateable, realize pose to read only one, which was revenue amounting to $25,000 per from the City of Fitzroy, dated 26th November, 1968, as follows- annum. In his second-reading speech, the Minister for Local Government At a meeting of Council held on Monday, 11th November, 1968, a circular was received stated that the City of Richmond from the Municipal Association of Vic received a grant of $3,000 per annum toria pointing out that the State Government, from the Commission. This payment through the Minister for Fuel and Power, the Honorable J. C. M. Balfour, M.P., has is not in lieu of rates but is to assist in introduced into the Legislative Assembly the maintenance of roads in the a Bill to amend the State Electricity Com mission Act. vicinity of the State Electricity Com The Bill arises from a decision of the mission works in Richmond. When the Supreme Court of Victoria, upheld on appeal value of the works and properties to the High Court of Australia, that the owned by the Commission in Rich State Electricity Commission is liable to pay municipal rates in respect of land which mond are considered, the Richmond it occupies and holds the fee simple. Under City Council believes that it should be 2450 State Electricity [COUNCIL.] CommissiQn Bill. paying to the council in rates approxi Many of the ,properties acquired by mately ~hree times the present grant. the Commission were previously I shall cIte some of the properties con rateable. However, applications by cerned: The district depot in Rooney the council for an extra grant or sub street-it was .formerly a tannery; sidy have been rejected. I support my the property In Madden-grove-it colleagues in their opposition to was formerly the Albion Quarrying clause 3. Company; the terminal station in The motion was agreed to. Mary-street; the electrical workshops and depot in River-street· the The Bill was read a second time and laboratory in Howard-street ; a~d the committed. radio station site in Brighton-street. Clause 1 was agreed to. Further, 28 sub-stations are located Clause 2, relating to section 50 of in Richmond, and the dimensions of the prinCipal Act. the areas they encompass are amaz The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister ing, ranging from 44 ft. x 47ft. at for Local Government) .-Although the corner of Balmain and Dover Mr. Knight indicated that the Labor streets, down to 11 ft. 9 in. x 34 ft. in Par:ty would vote against clause 3, Lord-street, and up to 183 ft. x 130 ft. whIch relates to rating of Commis at the corner of Bromham-place and sion property, I gained the impression Tweedie-place. The sum of $3000 that he was, after all, in favour of the paid by the State Electricity C~m Bill. He said that, in his opinion, the mission to the Richmond City Coun State Electricity Commission should ci! is a mere bagatelle when compared not be rated on its mines, substations wIth the cost to the municipality of switch yards, generating plant and s~ the upkeep of roads and footpaths to on, but that it should pay the equiva lent of rates on its showrooms elec the Commission areas. trical apparatus rooms and the The council has approached the buildings in which they are con Commission on many occasions to ducted. When it is all worked out obtain a larger grant, but it has there is not much left in between-": always been refused. I have not perhaps only the briquette yards mentioned the damage to the roads, remain. I believe there is con footpaths and channelling in the City siderable unanimity on the Bill and of Richmond. These works are con that not many people think all the tinually going on, and the amount operations of the State Electricity Commission should be rated. Many paid to the council for reinstatement people fear that, if this were so, the is 59 cents for roads, 50 cents for consumers and the municipalities in footpaths and 47 cents per square general would be worse off. yard for channelling. However, it costs the council in excess of $200 to The Local Government Act con have a pole removed; yet the Com tains a comprehensive list of exemp mission requires the council to pay tions from rating. It is unthinkable $70,913 per annum for light, power that, if anyone had thought the State and street lighting, in return for the Electricity Commission was liable to grant of a mere $3,000. The Commis be rated, it would not have been sion also had the auda~ity to write included in this list which includes any authority under the Water Act, to the council asking whether it the Victorian Railways Commis would raise any objection to an ap sioners, the Ministers of Education plication to the Lands Department to Public Works and Lands, the Railway a transfer of land in River-street Construction Board, the Commis from the council to the Commission sioners of the Melbourne Harbor for the purposes of a car park. This Trust, the Melbourne and Metro would take away part of a wonderful politan Board of Works, the Commis reserve called O'Connell Reserve. sioners of the Geelong Harbor Trust, The Hon. G. J. O'Connell. State' Electricity [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Commission Bill. 2451 the Geelong Waterworks and formula which is on a four-way basis, Sewerage Trust, the National Art under which municipalities, the State Gallery and Cultural Centre and the Electricity Commission, the Main Commissioners of the Portland Roads Board and the Government all Harbor Trust. If anyone had thought participate. The Government is in that the Commission would be rated, fact considering something along no difficulty would have been ex those lines. perienced in including the Commis sion on the same basis as the other Clause 3, which is the crux of the authorities in this comprehensive list Bill, does no more than preserve the ,of exemptions. status quo. As nobody regards the Bill as any more than an interim The Hon. A. R. MANSELL.-Are not measure, pending a full review of local government authorities object rating exemptions, in which the ing to all those exemptions, and the Government is now engaged, there is State Electricity Commission is only ample justification for the Bill. an example? The clause was agreed to. The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-I am say ing that the Commission is not an Clause 3 (As to rateability of Com exception. It is in the same cate mission property). gory; at the moment it is exempt The Committee divided on the from rating. This Bill only restores clause (the Hon. G. J. Nicol in the the status quo to provide that the chair)- Commission is not rateable, whilst Ayes 23 the Government examines ra ting Noes 9 exemptions. Justification for the Bill is the fact that the Commission has Majority for the received rate notices totalling more than $500,000. clause 14 AyES. The Hon. G. J. O'CONNELL.-That Mr. Bradbury Mr. Hewson is a mere bagatelle. Mr. Byrne Mr. Houghton Sir Percy Byrnes Mr. Hunt The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-It may Mr. Campbell Mr. McDonald be a bagatelle to the City of Rich Mr. Chandler Mr. May mond, but I can assure Mr. O'Connell Mr. Dickie Mr. Mitchell Mr. Fry Mr. Swinburne that it is not a bagatelle to the State Mr. Gleeson Mr. Thorn Electricity Commission. Before this Mr. Grimwade Mr. Thompson. Bill was introduced in another place, Mr. Gross Tellers: the Shire of Morwell issued a writ Mr. Hamer Mr. Granter for $350,000 in rates. Therefore, it Mr. Hamilton Mr. Mansell. was necessary to introduce the Bill NOES. to restore the status quo. In fact, Mr. Elliot Mr. Todd the Bill takes the matter a little Mr. Galbally Mr. Tripovich. further and provides that the Com Mr. Knight Tellers: Mr. Merrifield Mr. Cathie mission shall pay more in lieu of Mr. O'Connell Mr. Walton. rates than it does now. It is already paying $450,000 a year, but this Clause 4 was agreed to. amount will increase under the pro The Bill was reported to the House visions of the Bill. without amendment, and passed Mr. O'Connell and Mr. Hewson through its remaining stages. referred to street lighting charges and I agree that, in relation to State high LAND TAX BILL. ways and possibly main roads, there This Bill was received from the is a case for a contribution to local Assembly and, on the motion of the government expenditure. Mr. Knight Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of instanced the New South Wales Agriculture), was read a first time. 2452 Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY. ] Business Names Act. MARRIED WOMEN'S SUPERANNUATION FUND BILL. This Bill was received from the Tuesday, December 3, 1968. Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Education), was read a first time. The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon CHIROPODISTS BILL. Christie) took the chair at 2.15 p.m., This Bill was received from the and read the prayer. Assembly and, on the motion of the BUSINESS NAMES ACT. Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of NORTH SIDE PROMOTIONS (MANAGE Health), was read a first time. MENT AND BOOKING AGENCY). CRIMES (EVIDENCE) BILL. Mr. WHEELER (Essendon) asked This Bill was received from the the Premier- Assembly and, on the motion of the 1. Whether an organization trading as North Side Promotions, lA Belair-avenue, Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Glenroy, is registered under the Business Local Government), was read a first Names Act 1962 the Sunday Entertainment time. Act 1967, or any other appropriate Act? 2. Who are the office bearers and/or ADJOURNMENT. trustees? 3. Whether the organization conducts FORESTS COMMISSION: FIRE dances at Broadmeadows Town Hall on PROTECTION. Sundays for charity; if so, what charities The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Min have benefited, and by how much? ister of Agriculture) (By leave) .-1 Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and move- Treasurer) .-The answers are- That the Council, at its rising, adjourn until 1. North Side Promotions (Management tomorrow, at Eleven o'clock. and Booking Agency) is registered under The motion was agreed to. the Business Names Act 1962. There is no requirement for the organization to be The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Min registered under the Sunday Entertainment ister of Agriculture) .-1 move- Act 1967 or any other Act. That the House do now adjourn. 2. Mr. William Landeryou and Mr. William Reginald Tracey are partners in the firm. The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD 3. The Broadmeadows Town Hall was (Melbourne West Province) .-Fol booked for two concerts which were held lowing the recent bush fires in New on the 20th October, 1968, and the 24th South Wales, expressions of concern November, 1968, respectively, but it is understood that dancing took place at both have emanated from the chairman of these functions. It is not known whether the Forests Commission and other any charities have benefited or by how sources connected with fire fighting in much. this State. Reference has been PUBLIC WORKS DEPARTMENT. made in this Chamber to the fact that this year the Forests Commission is REPORT BY P.A. MANAGEMENT on a low budget and consequently CONSULTANTS PTY. LTD. has been compelled to retrench em Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds) ployees. I ask the Minister in charge asked the Premier- of the House to take this matter up If he will lay on the table of the Library with the Minister of Forests with a a copy of the P.A. Management Consultants Pty. Ltd. report on phase 1 of their inves view to ascertaining whether some tigations into the Public Works Depart statement can be made in the House ment; if not, why? on what the Government intends to Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and do to ensure that the forests of this Treasurer) .-The answer is "No ". State are sufficiently protected during This is a confidential report which has the summer period. not yet been fully considered by the The motion was agreed to. Public Service Board or the Govern The House adjourned at 11.47 p.m. ment. Land Tax [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Office. 2453 LAND TAX OFFICE. Shepparton, Shire of South Gippsland, Town of St. Arnaud, City of Swan Hill, Shire of STAFF: TRANSFER TO VALUER- Swan Hill, Shire of Talbot and Clunes, GENERAL: MUNICIPAL VALUATIONS. Shire of Tullaroop, Shire of Tungamah, Shire of Upper Murray, Shire of Warragul, Mr. WILKES (North cote) asked the Shire of Wodonga, Shire of Newham and Treasurer- Woodend, Shire of Yea. 1. How many valuers are employed by the Land Tax Office? TAX ON PRIMARY PRODUCTION LAND: 2. How many of these valuers will be NUMBER OF ASSESSMENTS. transferred to the staff of the Valuer General, and when? Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne) asked 3. What amounts are paid by the office the Treasurer- for the use of municipal valuations? 1. What amount was payable last calendar year in respect of land tax on land used for 4. Which municipalities' valuations are primary production? used by the office? 2. What number of taxpayers was so Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and assessed? Treasurer) .-The answers include a lengthy list of place names, and I seek Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and leave of the House to have them in Treasurer) .-The answers are- corporated in Hansard without my 1. Approximately $2,300,000. reading them. 2. This figure is not readily available from land tax records as many land tax assess Leave was granted, and the ments include both land used for primary answers were as follows:- production and other land. 1. Thirty-six qualified valuers. 2. Subject to the passing of the relevant amendments to the Valuation of Land Act GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS and the Land Tax Act all the valuers will be AND INSTRUMENTALITIES. transferred. The transfer is expected to take place by mid-1969. EXPENDITURE: LOANS: PERSONNEL: SALARIES AND WAGES. 3. The amounts paid by the Commissioner of Land Tax for the valuations of un Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked the improved capital values have been based on a determination by the Valuer-General in Treasurer- accordance with sub-section (7) of sec In respect of each of the following tion 7 of the Valuation of Land Act. The authorities, viz. :-the Hospitals and Chari determination stated that the cost of valuing unimproved capital value was one-third of ties Commission, the Mental Health Author the total cost of a valuation. This cost is ity, the Forests Commission, the State shared with any other rating authority Electricity Commission, and the Grain which uses the unimproved capital value. Elevators Board, what was-(a) capital ex penditure for the financial year 19£7-68; (b) 4. Shire of Alberton, Shire of Arapiles, Shire of Avoca, Shire of Bacchus Marsh, revenue expenditure for the financial year Shire of Bairnsdale, Town of Bairnsdale, 1967-68; (c) the amount of loans raised Shire of Bannockburn, Shire of Birchip, during the financial year 1967-68 (including Shire of Bright, Shire of Buln BuIn, Town refinancing); (d) total loan liability at 30th of Camperdown, Shire of Chiltern, Shire of June, 1968; (e) number of personnel em Cohuna, Shire of Colac, City of Colac, Shire ployed at 30th June, 1968; (f) total amounts of Daylesford and Glenlyon (portion for expended on salaries and wages in the finan merly Borough of Daylesford), City of cial year 1967-68; (g) the chairman's salary; Echuca, Shire of Euroa, Shire of Healesville, (,h) the deputy chairman's salary; and (0 Shire of Kara Kara, Shire of Kerang, a member'S salary? Borough of Kerang, Shire of Kilmore, Borough of Koroit, Shire of Kyneton, Shire Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and of Leigh, Shire of Lexton, Shire of Lilydale, Shire of Maffra, City of Maryborough, Shire Treasurer) .-The answer is in tabu of Mirboo, Shire of Mount Rouse, Shire of lated form, and I seek leave of the Nathalia, Shire of Oxley, Borough of Port Fairy, Shire of Rochester, Shire of Rodney, House to have it incorporated in City of Sale, Shire of Seymour, Shire of Hansard without my reading it. ~ ~ Leave was granted, and tJhe answer was as follows:- ~ ;g (a) (b) (c) (d) (e) (f) (g) (h) (i) ~ Amount of Total amounts :! Capital Revenue loans raised Total loan Number of expended on The deputy § expenditure for expenditure for during the liability at personnel salaries and The chairman's chairman's A member's the financial the financial financial year 30th June, employed at wages in the salary. salary. salary. -- year 1967-68. year 1967-68. 1967-68 (incl. 1968. 30th June, financial year -~ refinancing). 1968. 1967-68. ~ ~ i $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ § t;;" Hospitals and Charities 12,534,993 43,445,983 Nil. 153,465,648 29,682 67,714,222 14,650 11,550 11,100 Commission Capital expenditure is financed > from Govt. Loan Fund. 4,985,543 21,339,064 43,222,887 5,082 13,244,535 14,650 12,550 10,500 Mental Health Authority .. " ~~ Forests Commission .. 2,759,101 5,949,869 40,656,661 2,325 5,839,065 12,300 No 10,500 " provision. State Electricity Cemmission 102,798,611 195,877,059 67,186,800 836,137,467 21,900 86,104,274 17,950 2,250 l " ~ ~ Grain Elevators Board .. 1,955,000 7,903,500 1,950,000 25,756,000 320 930,000 11,800 I, Railway member, $600 Wheat I growers' representative, ~ $2,000 ~.- I I -- I Victorian Arts Centre. [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Police Department. 2455 CASH TURNOVER. Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secre ·Mr. MUTTON (Coburg) asked the tary) .-No such discussions have Premier- taken place. What was the total cash turnover of the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission, the Victorian Railways, the Melbourne and POLICE DEPARTMENT. Metropolitan Tramways Board, the Country Roads Board and the Melbourne and Metro GEELONG DISTRICT: STRENGTH OF politan Board of Works, respectively, during FORCE: EsTIMATED POPULATION: the financial year 1967-68? HOURS OF DUTY: CLERICAL DUTIES . . Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer) -The answer is- Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North) . Assuming that by "total cash turnover" asked the Chief Secretary- the honorable member means the total of 1 What is the numerical strength of loan moneys received, allocations from the' Police Force in the Barwon district Consolidated Revenue and all other revenues (Geelong)? collected by the authorities concerned, the 2. Where police are stationed throughout turnovers are:- the Geelong area? $ State Rivers and Water Supply 3. What has been the comparative Commission 46,400,000 strength over the last ten years? Victorian Railways .. 220,600,000 4. What number of police is on duty Melbourne and Metropolitan between the hours of midnight and 8 a.m. Tramways Board .. 20,800,000 daily, and what police stations are not Country Roads Board 73,400,000 open during these hours? Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works 100,800,000 5. What number of police is employed on full-time clerical duties in the district? VICTORIAN ARTS CENTRE. 6. Whether consideration is being given CHARGES FOR ADMISSION. to increasing police strength in the district in the near future? Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds) 7. What estimated population is covered asked the Chief Secretary- by the above district? What consideration has been given to admitting the public free of charge to the Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secre Arts Centre in 1969? tary) .-The answers are rather Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secre lengthy, and I seek leave of the House tary) .-The answer is- to have them incorporated in Hansard Consideration was given to the whole without my reading them. question of charges prior to the opening of the new National Gallery last August. Leave was granted, and the answers At this time, the Government approved a were as follows:- recommendation of the .council of Trustees of the National Gallery that a nominal fee 1. One hundred and forty-six. In addition should be charged for admission to the there are three police reservists attached gallery, the money so collected to be used to the district. to enhance and add to the collections 2. Belmont, Geelong, Geelong East, Gee already held in trust by the council. This long North, Geelong West, Newtown and fee is to be introduced on the 1st January, Norlane. 1969. I would point out that until the beginning 3. of next year, members of the public have the opportunity of visiting the new gallery Year. Strength. and seein~ and appreciating the fine art (As at 31st December, 1968). collection It houses free of charge. 1958 117 MOTOR VEHICLES. 1959 118 NATIONAL DRIVING LICENCES. 1960 120 1961 121 Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked 1962 126 the Chief Secretary- 1963 126 Whether any discussions have taken place 1964 130 between the States and the Commonwealth 1965 132 regarding the question of national driving 1966 136 Ucences; if so, what was the outcome of 1967 140 such discussions? 2456 Country Roads [ASSEMBLY.] Board. 4. Eight members are on duty at all times relating mainly to overtime rates, higher during the period in question and an addi duties allowances and appeal procedures. tional sixteen members are on duty for varying periods during the hours in ques 2. The following are the existing award tion. Geelong police station is open con salaries including the recent national wage tinuously during the period in question whilst increase of $1.35 per week for draughts Belmont, Geelong East, Geelong North, Gee men, engineering assistants, engineering long West, Newtown and Norlane are open surveyors, experimental officers, survey for varying periods during the hours in assistants and other technical classifica question. tions:- 5. Seven. 6. Yes. Considerations will be given Educational Standard. to increasing the strength at Geelong early in the new year when police commitments in respect of holiday resorts have been com Leaving Matricula pleted. Certificate. tion Per Annum. Certificate. 7. One hundred and forty-seven thousand. Per Annum. $ $ COUNTRY ROADS BOARD. Class I-Age- SALARIES AND CONDITIONS OF 16 1,322 1,453 TECHNICAL PERSONNEL. 17 1,587 1,718 18 1,850 1,981 Dr. JENKINS (Reservoir) asked 19 2,114 2,272 the Minister of Public W orks- 20 2,405 2,510 21 2,643 2,747 1. What negotiations have been conducted, 2,747 2,872 this year, by the Country Roads Board 2,872 2,997 with technical personnel who are members 2,997 3,122 of the Association of Architects, Engineers, 3,122 3,299 Surveyors and Draughtsmen of Australia, 3,299 3,454 concerning salaries and conditions of em 3,454 3,610 ployment? 3,610 3,834 2. What are the existing salaries and con 3,834 ditions of employment of these personnel? 3. Whether the Board is permitted to reach agreement on these matters, or whether it is prevented from so doing by any Government Department? $ 4. What are the claims of the association? Class 2 4,141 5. Why the Board has not reached an 4,215 agreement with the association? 4,287 6. Whether the delay in reaching an agreement is due to Government policy, and Class 3 4,574 whether it is causing staff unrest in the 4,742 Board? 4,914 Mr. PORTER (Minister of Public Works) .-As the answers are leng Class 4 5,166 thy, I seek leave of the House to have 5,363 them incorporated in Hansard with 5,560 out my reading them. Class 5 5,912 6,107 Leave was granted and the answers 6,304 were as follows:- 1. Discussions have been held concern Class 6 6,745 ing the association's claim for increased 6,939 salaries for its members and in particular 7,136 concerning a request that the increased salaries awarded to Commonwealth Public Service technical grade officers and State A copy of the Board's conditions of em Electricity Commission's technical officers ployment for salaried staff will be made be translated into the Board's salary available to the honorable member. structure. Discussions have also been held on several occasions during the year be 3. The Board is permitted to reach agree tween representatives of the Board and ment on such matters subject to the exer representatives of the association concern cise of co-ordination with other State ing the Board's conditions of employment Government organizations. Extractive [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Industries. 2457 4. In a letter dated 30th November, 1967, Board of Works since January, 1956, for the association claimed salary increases of permits to establish extractive industries in 30 per cent. in margins. More recently the the Heatherton electorate-being the City of claim has been for retrospective translation Springvale, City of Oakleigh, and City of into the Board's salary structure of the in Moorabbin? creased salaries awarded to Commonwealth 2. How many permits have been granted Public Service technical grades and tech -(a) by the Melbourne and Metropolitan nical officers of the' State Electricity Com Board of Works as the planning authority; mission. The letter dated 30th November, 1967, also sought amended conditions of and (b) by the Minister, following appeals employment relating to overtime and higher by either the applicant or objectors? duties allowances. Other claims concern 3. What total area is covered by the per ing conditions of employment are included mits issued? in the association's log of claims served on 4. Whether' the Melbourne and Metro the Board in 1965. politan Board of Works (as the planning 5 and 6. Co-ordination with other State authority) has zoned any area in the cities Government organizations is still proceed of Springvale, Oakleigh and Moorabbin for ing and the Board's activities are not being the purpose of extractive industry only? affected by this matter. 5. Whether the Minister or the planning authority has made any recent requests to PROPERTIES ACQUIRED: COMPEN the councils of the cities of Springvale, SATION: SOLATIUM Oak leigh and Moorabbin, to suggest any PAYMENTS: areas which might be zoned for extractive UNSETTLED CASES. industry purposes? Mr. WILKES (N orthcote) asked 6. Whether, if no requests have been the Minister of Public Works- made, the Minister will consider the initia 1. How many house properties have been tion of inquiries by the planning authority acquired by the Country Roads Board since to bring about the zoning of areas in these the introduction of the Valuation of Land cities for extractive industries? Act 1960? Mr. PORTER (Minister of Public 2. What total compensation was paid? Works) .-The answers to these ques 3. In how many cases solatium was paid? tions involve a considerable amount 4. In how many cases no solatium pay of research. The information will ment was made, and whether the majority therefore be conveyed to the honor of these cases were subsequent to the decision given by Mr. Justice Barbour? able member as soon as it is compiled. 5. How many cases remain unsettled, and whether it is proposed to pay solatium in SAND QUARRIES: INSPECTIONS: ApPLI- any of these cases? CATIONS FOR PERMITS. Mr. PORTER (Minister of Public For Mr. BILLING (Heatherton), Mr. Works) .-The answers are- Scanlan asked the Minister of 1. Eight hundred and sixty-seven. Mines- 2. The sum of $10,668,152. 1. How many sand quarries are being operated in the Heatherton electorate in the 3. Nil-the Board has no power to include cities of Springvale, Oakleigh and Moorab solatium in its assessment of compensation. bin, and who are the proprietors? 4. Eight hundred and sixty-seven, includ ing 96 since Mr. Justice Barber's decision in 2. At what intervals inspections of these the case March and Healy v. the City of quarries are made to ensure that safe min Frankston, dated 10th April, 1968. ing procedures are being observed? 5. Sixty-three house properties including 3. How many inspectors are available for one where the Land Valuation Board of this purpose? Review included solatium in its award. See 4. How many applications for extractive also answer to question No.3. industry permits have been made in the cities of Springvale, Oakleigh and Moorab bin, under the Extractive Industries Act EXTRACTIVE INDUSTRIES. 1966 and regulations? HEATHERTON ELECTORATE: PERMITS: 5. By whom these applications have been ZONING OF AREAS. made, and what area is contained in each application? For Mr. BILLING (Heatherton), Mr. Scanlan asked the Minister of Public Mr. BALFOUR (Minister of Mines). Works, for the Minister for Local -The answer to question No. 1 con Government- sists of a list of 25 companies and, with the leave of the House, I should 1. How many applications under the Town and Country Planning Act 1961 have been like it incorporated in Hansard lodged with the Melbourne and Metropolitan without my reading it. 2458 Extractive [ASSEMBLY.] Industries. Leave was granted, and the answer Leave was granted, and t·he answer was as follows:- was as follows:- 1. Twenty-five sand quarries are being 5. Applications have been made by the operated in the Heatherton electorate. The following for the areas shown:- proprietors are as follows:- City of Springvale. Acres. City of Springvale. Dingley Sand Pty. Ltd. .. .. 48 Dingley Sand Pty. Ltd. Springvale Washed Sand Pty. Ltd. 40 Springvale Washed Sand Pty. Ltd. Reltl. Mixed ~~crete ~:iC.) Pt~: 54 Ready Mixed Concrete (Vic.) Pty. Ltd. James Michael Maher .. . . 9 James Michael Maher. A. L. McDevitt & Co. Pty. Ltd. .. 9 A. L. McDevitt & Co. Pty. Ltd. South Suburban Sand Company Pty. Ltd. 18 South Suburban Sand Company Pty. Ltd. Allied Sand Pty. Ltd. . . 21 Allied Sand Pty. Ltd. Baxters Sand (Springvale) Pty. Baxters Sand (Springvale) Pty. Ltd. Ltd. .. .. 20 Albion Reid Pty. Ltd. Albion Reid Pty. Ltd. " 50 Ready Mixed Concrete (Vic.) Pty. Charles Pirotta & Sons Pty. Ltd. Ltd...... 21 Rowlands Quarries (Clayton) Pty. Ltd. Charles Pirotta & Sons Pty. Ltd. .. 30 Charles Pirotta & Sons Pty. Ltd. .. 14 City of Oakleigh. Rowlands Quarries (Clayton) Pty. Consolidated Quarries Ltd. Ltd... 30 K. Morris. Praznovsky Carriers Pty. Ltd. City of Oakleigh. Acres. Rowlands Quarries Pty. Ltd. 9 Elder Sand Pty. Ltd. Consolidated Quarries Ltd. 26 Cleal Brothers. Rowlands Quarries Pty. Ltd. 14i Sydney John Brown. Rowlands Quarries Pty. Ltd. 48 R. Wright & Co. Oakleigh Brick Company Ltd. 22 Castal Moulding Sand Pty. Ltd... 19 Albion Reid Pty. Ltd. Glen Iris Brick, Tile & Terra Cotta Rowlands Quarries (Clayton) Pty. Ltd. Company Pty. Ltd. 20 City of Moorabbin. K. Morris .. .. 11 Praznovsky Carriers Pty. Ltd. 15 A J. Baxter Pty. Ltd. Elder Sand Pty. Ltd. .. 22 Praznovsky Carriers Pty. Ltd. Winifred May Rowe 4 Consolidated Quarries Pty. Ltd. Cleal Brothers .. 15 Cavanagh Sand Supply Pty. Ltd. Sydney John Brown 3i R. Wright & Co. 10 Central Sand Company Pty. Ltd. Albion Reid Pty. Ltd. .. 22 Monier Supplies (Vic.) Pty. Ltd. 73 Mr. BALFOUR.-The answers to Rowlands Quarries (Clayton) Pty. questions Nos. 2, 3 and 4 are-- Ltd... 87 2. Inspections are made, on average, at City of Moorabbin. Acres. monthly intervals. To meet special needs A. J. Baxter Pty. Ltd. .. 26 or to investigate complaints, inspections Praznovsky Carriers Pty. Ltd. 29 would be made more frequently. Consolidated Quarries Ltd. 85 Rowlands Quarries Pty. Ltd. 30 3. The electorate of Heatherton is within Cavanagh Sand Supply Pty. Ltd.. . 131 an inspectorial district controlled by one Central Sand Company Pty. Ltd.. . 14 inspector. W. G. Johnson & Co. Pty. Ltd. .. 51 4. The Mines Department has received applications for extractive industry licences MELBOURNE AND METROPOLITAN in respect of 37 new and existing industries BOARD OF WORKS. within the cities of Springvale, Oakleigh and Moorabbin. Five of these are for exist PAYMENTS TO UPPER YARRA SHIRE. ing industries outside of the electorate of Mr. MUTTON (Coburg) asked the Heatherton. Minister of Public Works, for the The answer to question No.5 consists Minister for Local Government- of a list of 50 firms and the acreages Whether he will ascertain and inform the involved and, again with the permis House- sion of the House, I should like it l. What amounts of money were paid to the Shire of Upper Yarra by the incorporated in Hansard without my Melbourne and Metropolitan Board reading it. of Works, pursuant to section 227 Melbourne and Metropolitan [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Board of Works. 2459 of the Melbourne and Metropolitan 4. Whether any sum has been paid to the Board of Works Act 1958, during Shire of Healesville by the Board, pursuant each of the financial years ended to section 227 of the Act during the 30th June, 1963, 1964, 1965, and financial years ended 30th June, 1967, and 1966? 1968? 2. Whether the Shire of Upper Yarra paid Mr. PORTER (Minister of Public these sums into its general account? Works) .-The answers furnished by the Minister for Local Government 3. For what purpose the Shire of Upper Yarra spent such sums in each of are- these financial years, specifying the 1. The amounts paid to the Shire of amount of each item of expendi Healesville pursuant to section 227 of the ture? Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works Act 1958 were:- 4. Whether any sum has been paid to the $ Shire of Upper Yarra by the Board, 1962-63 7,932 pursuant to section 227 of the Act, 1963-64 7,932 during the financial years ended 1964-65 7,932 30th June, 1967 and 1968? 1965-66 7,932 Mr. PORTER (Minister of Public 2. Yes. Works) .-The answers provided by 3. Construction, renewal, repair and the Minister for Local Government maintenance of roads leading to or adjacent to the Board's watershed at Healesville. are- Specific amounts of each item of expendi 1. The amounts paid to the Shire of ture are not available. Upper Yarra pursuant to section 227 of the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works 4. No payment has been made in either Act 1958 were:- year. $ 1962-63 .. 8,280 HOUSING COMMISSION. 1963-&4 8,280 1964-65 8,280 TENANTS: ApPROACHES TO SOCIAL 1965-66 8,280 WELFARE BRANCH. 2. Yes. Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North) asked the Minister of Housing- 3. Construction, renewal, repair or main Whether approaches have been made to tenance of roads in or adjacent to lands, the Social Welfare Branch to give special water sheds, catchment areas or reservoirs attention to requirements of tenants of of the Board situated within the shire. Housing Commission areas; if so, what are Specific amounts of various items of expen the dates, details and results of such diture are not available. approaches? 4. No payment has been made in either Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Hous year. ing) .-The answers are- Where the Housing Commission finds it PAYMENTS TO HEALESVILLE SHIRE. has a social problem with a tenant, it seeks Mr. MUTTON (Coburg) asked the the assistance of the Social Welfare Branch, which assistance is readily given. Dis Minister of Public Works, for the closure of these details would be unfair to Minister for Local Government the individuals concerned. Whether he will ascertain and inform the House- UNITS CONSTRUCTED: NUMBER OF l. What amounts of money were paid to OCCUPANTS. the Shire of Healesville by the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works, pursuant Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North) to section 227 of the Melbourne and Metro asked the Minister of Housing- politan Board of Works Act 1958, during 1. What total number of units (house and each of the financial years ended 30th June, flat) have been constructed by the Housing 1963, 1964, 1965, and 1966? Commission since its inception? 2. Whether the Shire of Healesville paid 2. What is the estimated total number of these sums into its general account? persons occupying units? 3. For what purpose the Shire of Heales 3. What number of units are occupied by ville IIpent such sums in each of these -(a) pensioners; (b) rebated rental financial years, specifying the amount of families; (c) purchase families; and (d) each item of expenditure? tenant families? 2460 State Electricity [ASSEMBLY.] Commission. Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Hous Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Hous ing) .-The answers are- ing) .-The answer is- 1. 62,643. In addition, 1,004 units were 1964 433 constructed for other Government 1965 407 authorities, 27 units were donated by the 1966 604 City of Prahran and 10 units were 1967 452 purchased. One unit was destroyed by fire. 1968 (to 1st November) 316 STATE ELECTRICITY 2. Approximately 260,400. COMMISSION. 3. (a) As there is an unknown number of PROPERTIES IN MOONEE PONDS pensioners who are not in receipt of rebates, it is not possible to supply accurate figures. ELECTORATE. Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds) (b) 1,393. asked the Minister for Fuel and (c) 26,756. Power- (d) 35,923. What rateable and non-rateable property the State Electricity Commission has within the electorate of Moonee Ponds, and ARREARS OF RENT. whether it is intended to extend any of Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North) these properties? asked the Minister of Housing- Mr. BALFOUR (Minister for Fuel During each of the last five years, what and Power).-The answer is- number of tenants owing rent arrears in The Commission owns the following excess of $40 vacated Housing Commission properties in the electorate of Moonee units? Ponds:- Municipality. Location. Property. Essendon Comer Buckley and Price streets Main substation 140 ft. x 165 ft. Ascot Vale-road " ,,92 ft. x 120 ft.' Ascot Vale-road District depot 109 ft. x 165 ft. Young-street Store 66 ft. x 92 ft. Afton-street Land for transmission line 50 ft. x 172 ft. Bent-street .. Minor substation 12 ft. x 16 ft. Arthur-street 15 ft. x 17 ft. Scott-street 10 ft. x 12 ft. Grandview-street 14 ft. x 14 ft. Off Union-road 12 ft. 6 in. x 12 ft. 6 in. Moore-street 14 ft. x 24 ft. Off Puckle-street 17 ft. x 17 ft. Off Bank-street 12 ft. x 14 ft. Scotia-street 15 ft. x 20 ft. Epsom-road 12 ft. x 15 ft. Park-street .. 12 ft. x 17 ft. 4t in. Off Charles-street 13 ft. 1 in. x 25 ft. 5 in. As no trading activities are carried out at NUCLEAR POWER: PURCHASE OF LAND any of these premises, the Commission ON FRENCH ISLAND. makes no payment to the municipality on any of them. Mr. SCANLAN (Oakleigh) asked the Minister for Fuel and rPower- In addition, the Commission has pur Whether the State Electricity Commission chased a site for a future main substation in has given consideration to the construction Maribyrnong-road, Ascot Vale, on which of a nuclear energy power station on West there are two houses erected. Pending ernport Bay; if so, whether the Common development of the main substation, the wealth has expressed an interest in houses are leased and it is a condition of co-operating with the State in this matter? the leases that the tenants should pay all Mr. BALFOUR (Minister for Fuel rates assessed on the properties. and Power}.-The answer is- The Commission has no intention in the (i) Power plant now under construction foreseeable future of extending any of the at Hazelwood and Yallourn 'w' should above properties. enable the State Electricity Commission to Bread [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Industry. 2461 meet the demand for electricity until 1975 The number of persons holding so that further generating plant is unlikely exemptions differs from the number to be required before 1976 and decisions on new installations need not be made for of applications granted because some another two years. Meanwhile, investigation persons hold more than one exemp of a number of alternative projects is con tion. tinuing. These include the use of brown coal, oil, natural gas and nuclear fuel. 2. Thirteen applications have been refused. 3. Eighteen prosecutions have been taken. The Commission is keeping in close touch 4. No inspector is engaged exclusively on with nuclear power development overseas. this work, but from time to time 31 inspec The stage has been reached where serious tors have been required to undertake some consideration must be given, particularly investigation. for unit sizes of 500 MW and above, to the possibility of introducing nuclear power in As the answer to question No. 5 is Victoria. An examination is being made of detailed, I seek leave t'0 have it the several types of nuclear plant now com incorporated in Hansard without my mercially available and of potential power station sites. reading it. The Commission has purchased land on Leave was granted, and the French Island and has asked the Lands answer was as follows:- Department to reserve a further area on A. R. & L. A. Reynolds, Stratford; Podbury's French Island as a potential power station City Bakery Pty. Ltd., Geelong; R. & E. site. This site would be suitable for either Blizzard, Rosanna; L. Grinwald, Carlton; a conventional type station with natural gas Polak's Bakeries Pty. Ltd., South Caulfield; or oil fired boilers, or a nuclear power Oslo-Hague Bakery Pty. Ltd., Deepdene; station. South Gippsland Bakeries Pty. Ltd., Mirboo North; J. Gibbs, Horsham; J. E. Allen, (ii) There have been discussions between Buangor; I. A. & D. V. Deans, Stawell; officials of the Commission and the Com L. J. Hall, Avoca; Brogden Bros. Pty. Ltd., monwealth on a variety of matters related Ballarat; Sunicrust Bakeries (Canberra) to nuclear reactors and atomic energy. At Pty. Ltd., Geelong; Kasper Wiss, Geelong; various times, mention has been made of B. D. & C. F. Stuart, Redcliffs; Tschirpig's possible Commonwealth-State co-operation Bread Pty. Ltd., Mildura; Wallace's Bakery in constructing a nuclear power station but (Vic.) Pty. Ltd., Merbein; G. N. Coward no definite proposals have been put forward. Pty. Ltd., Mildura; Central Cakes Pty. Ltd., So far, there has been no approach to Mildura; W. A. Wright & Partners, Heidel the State Government by the Common berg; K. Blundin, Foster. wealth. WATER DIVINING AND BREAD INDUSTRY. EXTRA-SENSORY PERCEPTION. PERMITS TO DELIVER OVER 30-MILE ACADEMIC RESEARCH. LIMIT: PROSECUTIONS: INSPECTORS. Mr. LOVEGROVE (Sunshine) asked Mr. BUCKLEY (Lowan) asked the the Minister of Labour and Industry, Minister of Labour and Industry- for the Minister of Education- 1. How many applications for permits 1. What is the nature of the ability of to deliver bread over the 30-mile limit have certain people to find water with a divining been received to date? rod? 2. How many applications have been 2. What research is undertaken in Vic refused to date? torian universities concerning the nature of what has frequently been described as 3. How many prosecutions have been extra-sensory perception? launched against persons for breaching this 3. What explanation of such phenomena provision to date? is offered by the various departments of 4. How many inspectors are employed to psychology in the Victorian universities? police the 30-mile limit provision? 5. Which firms have obtained permits to Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour carry bread? and Industry).-The Minister of Education has supplied the following Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour answers :- and Industry).-The answers are- Professor R. H. Day, chairman of the 1. Sixty-three applications have been Department of Psychology, Monash Uni received from 39 applicants. This number versity, has supplied the following informa includes quite a few cases where an exemp tion :- tion was granted for a limited period and, 1. No person has any great ability to on its expiration, another application was find water; with a "divining rod", although made and another exemption issued. this belief is very strongly held. It is very Session 1968.-91. 2462 Railway Department. [ASSEMBLY.] . ..; National Parks Authority. likely that these people use alternative NATIONAL PARKS AUTHORITY. information, such as slope of land, colour of vegetation and grass, to locate areas of KENTBRUCK IHEATH AREA: REPORT underground water. RECOMMENDING RESERVATION AS NATIONAL PARK. 2. I am not aware of any research into Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows) extra-sensory perception currently being asked the Minister of State Develop undertaken in Australian universities. ment- 3. The most commonly accepted view of Whether he will make available to the extra-sensory perception by those who have honorable member for Broadmeadows the considered the now extensive literature is report from the National Parks Authority that no such phenomena exist. Like palm recommending that an area of approximately reading, teacup reading and spiritualism, 48,000 acres, extending on both sides of extra-sensory perception is a belief, not a the river from the Victoria-South Australian real phenomenon. All the properly-con border eastward to and including the whole of the Kentbruck Heath, should be reserved ducted experiments and inquires show this as a national park; if not, why? to be so. Mr. MANSON (Minister ·of State It will be noted that Professor Day Development).-The simple answer has presumably excluded "political to the honorable member's Q4estion forecasting" from his ·answers. is, "No", for the reason that this is a confidential report between the National Parks Authority and the RAILWAY DEPARTMENT. Land Utilization Advisory Council. ADVERTISING HOARDING AT However, knowing the honorable BRUNSWICK. member's intense interest in this sub ject, I am prepared to make the report Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West) available to him on a confidential asked the Minister of Transport- basis. 1. Whether, when the Railway Depart ment reconstructed and altered the position PRE-SCHOOL CENTRES. of an advertising hoarding on the north-west corner of the Park-street, Brunswick, rail CHILDREN ELIGIBLE FOR EDUCATION: way crossing, consideration was given to the ENROLMENTS. possible detrimental effect to the area and Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked the the effect on the natural lighting of a Mr. M-inister of State Development, for Angelucci's residence? the Minister of Health- 2. Whether he is prepared to inspect the 1. How many children of an age eligible hoarding? for pre-school education were in Victoria at the beginning of 1968? Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Trans 2. How many of these children are receiv port).-The answers are- ing a recognized pre-school education? Mr. MANSON (Minister of State The hoarding is a standard 20 ft. x 10 ft. Development).-The answers supplied size, originally erected on wooden posts with by the Minister of Health are- supporting wooden stays. It faced the rail way line ·at a slight angle to the brick wall 1. Three-year-olds - 65,590 of the adjacent building and the street. Four-year-olds - 66,300 It was blown down in October and re 131,890 erected on steel rail posts in a position 2. A total of 35,400, most of whom are closer and parallel to the brick wall of the four-year-olds. adjacent building. I understand that the top of the hoarding DROUGHT RELIEF. is on the same alignment as and not higher DECLARED AREAS: GOVERNMENT than the window sill of the adjacent build ASSISTANCE. ing and that it is less visible from the interior of the building than prior to its Mr. B. J. EVANS (Gippsland East) re-erection. asked the Minister of Lands- 1. What parts of Victoria are declared In these circumstances, I see no need to drought areas, and what was the date of inspect the hoarding. proclamation in each case? Drought [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] . Relief, 2463 2. What assistance is available to land Gippsland considered to be severely affected owners in these areas, and how application by the drought but the Commonwealth re should be made in respect of each of the fused this on the 18th November, 1968. following :-( a) transport of cattle for agist This was a real disappointment to the Gov ment; (b) transport of fodder to feed ernment and no doubt to the local Federal drought-affected stock; and (c) "carry on " member, Mr. Nixon, who is a member of finance to meet commitments until the the Federal Ministry. It was hoped that drought is broken? his representations and knowledge of the situation together with the submissions made 3. Whether the Government proposes to by Victoria would have assured Common meet the cost of these concessions from its wealth approval. Under the present Com own resources or to apply for Common monwealth-State financial relationships wealth assistance on the same basis as is the State's ability to raise revenue is sever available in south-eastern New South Wales ely restricted. Notwithstanding this and and east Tasmania? the serious losses Victoria suffered in rev enue due to drought, some $7,500,000 was Sir WILLIAM McDONALD (Minis expended by Government agencies and ter of Lands) .-The answers are municipalities in special loans to farmers, somewhat lengthy, and I seek leave fodder subsidies and contributions towards for their incorporation in employment giving activities to assist re Hansard, lieve the ravages of drought. Details of without being read. this expenditure is as follows :-special loans to farmers $2,500,000, fodder subsidies Leave was granted, and the $3,500,000, contributions by municipalities answers were as follows:- and Government Departments to employ 1. The municipalities which were de ment giving projects $55,000 and $1,030,000 clared drought areas and the date of pro respectively. All of this was in addition clamation in respect of the individual to funds made available by the Common municipalities are set out in the table wealth. These funds totalling $18,600,000 following the answers to the questions. will to date have been expended as The foregoing does not take into account follows:- declarations which had to be effected in re Contribution to fodder sub- spect of the same municipalities for the sidies $1,000,000 purposes of the Drought Relief Act which Loans to farmers 5,900,000 authorized fodder subsidies. Later in this Freight rebates 4,100,000 answer I will detail the municipalities or Employment projects 7,200,000 parts thereof in the East Gippsland and Emergency water supply 400,000 Swan Hill areas which are receiving con sideration for assistance because of a con In view of this expenditure by the State tinuation of drought conditions in these it is difficult to understand the Federal areas. Treasurer's complaint on Thursday last that Victoria has not done enough from its own 2. The assistance which is available resources. It is indeed strange criticism throughout declared drought areas for the from a responsible Minister of a Govern various drought measures has been govern ment which has done its utmost to prevent ed by the provision of funds by the Com Victoria raising taxes in its own right for monwealth Government which has fixed its own needs. certain cut-off dates in respect of various measures. In relation to the particular It will be recalled that three times the matters covered by the question, Common State Government asked the Commonwealth wealth funds are available for-( a) the Government for assistance in subsidizing transport of cattle returning from agistment fodder and three times the Federal Govern or of cattle purchased for restocking up to ment refused and, finally, when replying the 31st December, 1968; (b) loans for to a deputation of farmers organizations, carry-on finance to farmers where a case stated that it had not been asked for. for such finance has been established by After the State approved a fodder subsidy the 30th September, 1968; and (c) loans the Commonwealth came in belatedly and for restocking where a case has been estab offered $1,000,000 out of approximately lished prior to the 31st December, 1968. $4,500,000 that fodder subsidies cost. Vic Applications in respect of these measures toria is the only State to subsidize pur should be made to the Rural Finance and chases of fodder on this scale. This must Settlement Commission. surely be accepted as further evidence of The transport of stock to agistment and the degree of self help evident in our ad the transport of fodder to feed drought ministration and demonstrates clearly that affected stock are no longer able to be met the Federal Treasurer's criticism is both ilJ from special Commonwealth moneys in informed and inaccurate. view of the cut-off date fixed by the Com Having received the Commonwealth's re monwealth, namely 30th September, 1968. fusal dated 18th November, 1968, I made 3. On the 18th October, 1968, the Com a firm promise last week on behalf of the monwealth Government was requested to Government that we would provide as a continue drought aid for areas in East minimum rail freight subsidies on the scale 2464 Drought [ASSEMBLY.] Relief which was normal prior to the 1967-68 sent to agistment and that they will not be drought and, bearing in mind that the maj offered for sale within a period of eight ority of the drought stricken areas of Gipps weeks after arrival at the destination. It land are so remote from rail as to make is also proposed that the subsidy will apply rail movement impracticable, that we would only to the movement of stock within a provide subsidy to road transport move radius of 150 miles of Omeo. ment of stock where this was appropriate and the extent of the road transport rebate Application in the case of road transport promised was an amount equal to the rail should be made to the Rural Finance and subsidy if rail had been practicable. Settlement Commission and subsidies on rail movement will be administered by the As promised to stock owners representa Railway Department. tives when I visited the drought areas recently, the rebates proposed are retro In order to avoid the confusion of making spective to 30th September, 1968, when two separate payments, settlement of any assistance for movement of stock to agist claims for subsidies is being deferred pend ment was stopped by the Federal Govern ing receipt of a reply from the Common ment. wealth. This promise of assistance from purely State resources was made following an TABLE of MUNICIPALITIES DECLARED TO BE outright refusal by the Commonwealth to DROUGHT AREAS. provide assistance to Victoria for farmers in the East Gippsland or Swan Hill areas. Shire. Date. Our request to the Commonwealth was Alberton 18th March, 1968 that the same scale of aid should be made Alexandra 26th March, 1968 available at this time as was ultimately Arapiles .. 24th Oct., 1967 made available in late 1967 and 1968. This Ararat .. 10th July, 1967 we considered reasonable since the con Avoca .. 30th Oct., 1967 ditions being experienced in the areas Avon (North and Central mentioned were a continuation of the same Riding) 22nd March, 1968 drought. Our request was made in a letter Bacchus Marsh 6th Nov., 1967 of 18th October, 1968, and the Common Bairnsdale 27th March, 1968 wealth's refusal was dated 18th November, BalIan 6th Nov., 1967 1968. Ballarat .. 2nd Nov., 1967 Since then I have had the opportunity to Bannockburn 15th Aug., 1967 study the assistance being given to New (Meredith Riding) 6th Nov., 1967. South Wales and it appears obvious from Barrabool 8th Nov., 1967 what that State is receiving and we have Bass 1st March, 1968 been denied, that the Commonwealth Beechworth 27th March, 1968 Government is discriminating against Vic Belfast ., 30th Oct., 1967 toria. No offer of anything less than our Bellarine .. 5th Jan., 1968 request was suggested by the Common Berwick .. 14th March, 1968 wealth Government. Bet Bet .. 10th Nov., 1967 Birchip .. 24th Oct., 1967 The drought areas of East Gippsland are Bright 26th March, 1968 in the same drought zone as south-eastern Broadford 26th March, 1968 New South Wales and in the opinion of the Bulla 10th Nov., 1967 Victorian Government, Victorian farmers Buln Buln 1st March, 1968 are entitled to the same treatment by the Bungaree 16th Nov., 1967 Commonwealth as farmers in New South Buninyong 18th July, 1967 Wales receive. Charlton 10th Nov., 1967 Accordingly, a letter is being forwarded Chiltern ., 3rd April, 1968 to Canberra reiterating to the Prime Colac 23rd June, 1967 Minister the geographical and climatic facts Cobram .. 3rd April, 1968 and requesting treatment comparable to Corio 30th Oct., 1967 that which New South Wales is receiving in Cranbourne 14th March, 1968 respect of adjacent border areas. Creswick 9th Nov., 1967 Daylesford and Glenlyon .. 20th Nov., 1967 If the Commonwealth will agree to our Diamond Valley 10th April, 1968 request the movement of stock out of East Dimboola 18th Aug., 1967 Gippsland will be subsidized by rail or road Donald .. 30th Oct., 1967 on the following terms:- Dundas .. 26th June, 1967 In the case of rail movement of stock to Dunmunkle 8th Nov., 1967 agistment and return, freight rate will be East Loddon 8th Nov., 1967 50 per cent. of normal. Where rail is not EItham-North Riding 1st March, 1968 available or its use is impracticable, con Flinders .. 1st March, 1968 sideration is beIng given to paying a subsidy French Island 21st March, 1968 of 50 per cent. of the cost per mile up to a Gisborne 1st March, 1968 maximum of 25 cents per mile for the total Glenelg .. 26th June, 1967 forward journey less 40 miles. It will be a Goulburn (Part of Shire) .. 10th April, 1968 condition that the stock have been owned Gordon (Non-irrigated) 13th Nov., 1967 for at least three months prior to being Grenville 4th July, 1967 Drought [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Relief. 2465 TABLE OF MUNICIPALITIES DECLARED TO BE TABLE OF MUNICIPALITIES DECLARED TO BE DROUGHT AREAs-continued. DROUGHT AREAs-continued. Shire. Date. Shire. Date. Hampden 26th June, 1967 Tungamah (Non-irrig. only) 3rd April, 1968 Hastings .. .. 1st March, 1968 Upper Murray . . . . 26th Feb., 1968 Healesville (Parish of Sutton) Upper Yarra (West Riding) 30th April, 1968 13th March, 1968 Violet Town . . . . 26th March, 1968 Healesville (West Riding) .. 3rd April, 1968 Walpeup Heytesbury 10th Nov., 1967 30th Oct., 1967 Huntly .. 1st March, 1968 Wangaratta 18th April, 1968 Kaniva 1st Nov., 1967 Wannon 16th June, 1967 Kara Kara 3rd Nov., 1967 Warracknabeal 8th August, 1967 Karkarooc .. .. 24th Oct., 1967 Warragu] 26th Feb., 1968 Kerang (Non-irrigated only) 15th Dec., 1967 Warrnambool 4th July, 1967 Additional area .. 9th April, 1968 Werribee 10th Nov., 1967 Kilmore 27th March, 1968 Whittlesea 26th Feb., 1968 Knox 18th April, 1968 Wimmera 1st Nov., 1967 Korumburra 13th March, 1968 Winchelsea 24th Oct., 1967 Korong ., 30th Oct., 1967 Wodonga .. 14th March, 1968 Kowree ., 4th July, 1967 Woorayl-West Riding 1st March, 1968 Kyneton 1st March, 1968 balance 21st March, 1968 Leigh 9th Aug., 1967 Wycheproof 24th Oct., 1967 Lexton 18th July, 1967 Yackandandah 26th Feb., 1968 Lilydale .. 18th April, 1968 Yarrawonga 22nd March, 1968 Lowan 30th Oct., 1967 Yea 26th March, 1968 McIvor.. .. 27th March, 1968 Maffra (Non-irrigated) 22nd March, 1968 Boroughs. Maldon .. .. 6th Nov., 1967 Koroit 9th Nov., 1967 Mansfield 18th March, 1968 Port Fairy 3rd Nov., 1967 Marong .. 6th Nov., 1967 Sebastopol 7th March, 1968 Melton .. 15th Dec., 1967 Wonthaggi 3rd April, 1968 Metcalfe .. .. 13th Nov., 1967 Mildura (Non-irrigated only) 8th Nov., 1967 Cities. Minhamite .. .. 8th Nov., 1967 Dandenong (South Ward) .. 29th July, 1968 Mirboo .. 21st March, 1968 Frankston (North Riding) .. 31st July, 1968 Mornington 10th April, 1968 Horsham 1st Nov., 1967 Mortlake 4th July, 1967 Warrnambool . . . . 16th Nov., 1967 Morwell 3rd April, 1968 Springvale (South Ward only) 22nd April, 1968 Mount Rouse 26th June, 1967 Ballarat . . . . 2nd Nov., 1967 Myrtleford 1st March, 1968 Hamilton 16th Nov., 1967 Narracan .. .. 26th Feb., 1968 Ararat .. 10th July, 1967 Nathalia (Non-irrig. only) .. 15th Dec., 1967 Moe 22nd April, 1968 Newham and Woodend .. 1st March, 1968 Mildura .. 8th Nov., 1967 Numurkah (Non-irrig. only) 10th April, 1968 Wangaratta 30th April, 1968 Newstead .. ., 30th Nov., 1967 Omeo .. 26th Feb., 1968 Towns. Orbost (North Riding) 18th April, 1968 Camperdown 30th Nov., 1967 Otway .. .. 26th Feb., 1968 St. Arnaud 3rd Nov., 1967 Oxley 26th March, 1968 Phillip Island 17th Nov., 1967 Portland 4th July, 1967 AREAS TO WHICH PROPOSED FREIGHT REBATES Pyalong 1st March, 1968 ON MOVEMENT OF STOCK TO AGISTMENT Ripon.. .. 4th July, 1967 WILL ApPLY. Rochester (Non-irrig.) 22nd March, 1968 Romsey .. 1st March, 1968 Shire of Maffra-Central and eastern ridings. Rosedale (Non-irrig.) 22nd March, 1968 Non-irrigated portions only. Rutherglen .. 18th April, 1968 Shire of Avon-North and east ridings only. South Barwon .. 22nd Nov., 1967 Shepparton (Non-irrig.) 18th April, 1968 Shire of Bairnsdale. South Gippsland. . . . 22nd March, 1968 Shire of Omeo. Seymour (Ridings of Talla- Shire of Tambo. rook and Avenel) 18th April, 1968 Shire of Orbost-North riding only. Stawell .. . . 16th Nov., 1967 Sherbrooke 22nd April, 1968 Note.-Central, south and eastern Strathfieldsaye 7th Dec., 1967 ridings of Shire of Orbost have not been Swan Hill .. 24th Oct., 1967 declared. Application for declaration of Talbot and Clunes 3rd Nov., 1967 one or more of these ridings. would be Tambo 22nd March, 1968 considered. Towong .. 1st March, 1968 Traralgon 22nd March, 1968 Shire of Swan Hill-Non-irrigated portion Tullaroop 20th" Nov. 1967 only. 2466 State Rivers and [ASSEMBLY.] Water Supply Commission. LAND UTILIZATION ADVISORY STATE RIVERS AND WATER COUNCIL. SUPPLY COMMISSION. GLENELG RIVER AND KENTBRUCK REPLACEMENT OF TORRUMBARRY HEATH AREAS: LAND USE: PROPOSED LOCK GATES. NATIONAL PARK. Mr. R. S. L. McDONALD (Rodney) Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows) asked the Minister of Water Supply- asked the Minister of Lands- What is the policy of the State Rivers Whether he will make available to the and Water Supply Commission on the honorable member for Broadmeadows the replacement of the Torrumbarry lock gates following:-(a) a copy of a letter dated on the River Murray? 19th April, 1966, from the Pre~ier to the Land Utilization Advisory CouncIl, concern Mr. BORTHWICK (Minister of the future use of Crown land in the vicinity Water Supply) .-The answer is- of the lower reaches of the Glenelg river; The situation at the Torrumbarry lock (b) a copy of the Land Utilization Advisory over the past twelve years has been that Council study group report and recommend the lock has operated on only 25 occasions, ation as to the future use of the Kentbruck that is, about twice a year on an average. Heath area of approximately 48,000; and In 1959, 1960 and 1962 the lock was not (c) a copy of the plan referred to in the used at all. final paragraph of the chairman of the Land Utilization Advisory Council's letter of 15th The position has now been re~ched at October, 1968, to the Minister, on the pro which the timber lock gates, WhICh were posed Lower Glenelg National Park? installed in 1923, are approaching the end of their life and are due for replacement Sir WILLIAM McDONALD (Minis within the next two or three years. This ter of Lands).-The answer is- will involve an expenditure of not less than (a) The letter dated 19th April, 1966, $120,000, one-third, of this cost to be borne by Victoria, and l~ seems rathe,r d I am in agreement with the Minister's stationconcerned was closed, and the proposals, but on this occasion I am policeman chose to conduct the test unable to support the provisions in the street in the full view of the contained in two clauses. Clause 2 public. rela tes to the making by a person of Mr. G. O. REID.-The nearest police two statements on oath, one of which station may be 100 miles away. is irreconcileably in conflict with the other and the jury is of opinion that Mr. TURNBULL.-A person should not be tested in the street. The one of the statements was wilfully breathalyzer needs to be properly false. This matter was the subject balanced, and a level surface on of a report by the Statute Law which to place the instrument is Revision Committee as far back as needed so that it will give a correct 1958. Usually, a report presented reading. by the committee is like wine-it matures and improves with age. I do not object to clause 4, which amends sub-section (2A) of section However for some unknown reason, 408A of the principal Act. A certifi the Atto;ney-General now desires to cate is required showing the record depart from the recommendations of ing of the instrument relating to the the committee. In Committee, mem quantity of alcohol. Apparently, the bers of the Opposition intend to vote Attorney-General wishes to bring the against clause 2. provision into line with sub-section (3) of section 408 of the Crimes Act Clause 3 deals with the subject of relating to blood tests, which states- alcohol-not necessarily wine, as A certificate purporting to be signed by the Attorney-General points out-in a person who purports to be a legally relation to the driving of motor qualified medical practitioner in or to the effect of the Seventh Schedule to this Act vehicles. Since the introduction shall be admitted in evidence in any pro of breathalyzers and the use. of ceedings referred to in sub-section (1) of readings or disclosures obtalI~ed this section as prima facie proof of the with these instruments, the pohce facts and matters therein contained. have had the right to subject It is suggested by the amended pro drivers to breath tests in the vision in clause 4 that a document vicinity where the driving at issue purporting to be a copy may be took place or at a police station. proved. I was unable to find para In a recent case a police constable graph (a) of sub-section (2) of sec considered that" in the street " near tion 408. I assume that it is along a police station was "at a police the lines of the provision to which I station". The Supreme Court took have just referred. a different view. By clause 3, the Mr. G. O. REID.-It has been Attorney-General now wishes to amended. amend sub-paragraph (ii) of para Mr. TURNBULIL.-I should be glad graph (b) of sub-section (4) of if the Attorney-General would inform section 408A of the principal Act me during the Committee stage where by omitting the words "or at the I can find that provision. The police station" with the view of Opposition proposes to vote against inserting the words " or at or in the clauses 2 and 3. vicinity of the police station". I Mr. ROSS-EDWARDS (Shep- suggest the words "at the nearest parton) .-This Bill proposes to effect available police station" should be three separate amendments to the added. If a person is to be tested, Crimes Act, two of which deserve the surely he should be treated with serious consideration of the House. dignity and the test carried out away Clause 2 amends section 314 of the from public view. In the 'case to principal Act by inserting a new sub which I have referred, the police section (4) relating to perjury. The 2468 Crimes (Evidence) [ASSEMBLY.] Bill. provision contains a different stan him the opportunity to have them dard of proof than that normally printed and considered, I suggest that used in criminal proceedings, not progress be reported. withstanding the fact that, ten years Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick ago, the Statute Law Revision Com West) .-1 should be indebted to the mittee did not believe that there was honorable member for Shepparton if any need for amendment. The basic he would make copies of his amend objection to the amendment proposed ment available to me. in clause 2 concerns the words " jury are of opinion ". That expression is Progress was reported. open to question. GOODS (TEXTILE PRODUCTS) Clause 3 amends section 408A of BILL. the principal Act relating to the place The debate (adjourned from of the breath test. Its purpose is to November 14) on the motion of Mr. overcome the difficul ties arising Rossiter (Minister of Labour and from the fact that the nearest police Industry) for the second reading of station to which a person may be this Bill was resumed. taken may be shut. Whilst 1 agree that a person should not be able to Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds). avoid taking a breath test because This small Bill consists of three the police station is shut, he should minor amendments to the Goods Act not be subjected to this test in pub in regard to the labelling of certain lic. The test may be taken in the textile products. Basically, these middle of the night or in the middle amendments have been requested by of the afternoon. A reputable citizen the industry. The first amendment may be required to take a test in the will allow certain manufacturers to public view and may suffer damage use the wool symbol as from 1st even though later he may be proved January, 1969, under the terms of the to be innocent. This is an unreason International Wool Symbol Licence able amendment. A person could be Agreement. The second amendment taken to some police station that is will allow the use of the expression open, whether it be the nearest police " all wool " as well as the expression station or not. The Attorney-General "pure wool", for the purposes re interjected to the honorable member ferred to in the Minister's second for Brunswick West that the nearest reading speech. It also amends the open police station might be 100 miles defini tion of a textile containing a away. The mobile police patrol mixture of sheep's wool and other should be given a key to open the fibres. The third and final amendment nearest police station. Without inserts the words "carpets of all defeating its real purpose, the Bill kinds whatsoever" in the definition could be further amended. 1 there of "textile products" in sub-section fore foreshadow amendments to (4) of section 92 of the principal Act. clauses 2 and 3. Basically, the Bill is the result of The motion was agreed to. an agreement between all seven The Bill was read a second time Australian Governments, and mem and committed. bers of the Labor Party do not oppose it. However, I consider that the Clause 1 was agreed to. Minister could have included the Clause 2, relating to irreconcileable words "soft floor coverings" in the statements on oath. definition of "textile products ", be cause carpets now include all sorts of Mr. G. O. REID (Attorney floor coverings. The word "carpet" General) .-The honorable member has a limited connotation, whereas for Shepparton has foreshadowed cer the words "floor coverings " cover a tain amendments and in order to give much wider ambit. Presumably the Goods (Textile [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Products) Bill. 2469 words "carpets of all kinds whatso Wool Board, which conducts the ever" are to be included in the affairs of the industry at a certain definition, because at present the level, has agreed that these amend definition of "textile products" re ments are necessary to bring about fers to woven, knitted or felted uniformity amongst the States. The materials manufactured from fibre, Australian Wool Industry Confer and many carpets and floor coverings ence, which is the Parliament of wool are not now woven in the sense im growers, in its wisdom also agreed plied in the principal Act. They are to the amendments, because it often tufted or manufactured by an realizes that it is necessary to have adhesion process. complementary legislation introduced The principal Act requires the by Federal and State Governments. accurate labelling of all textile pro The various State producer organiza ducts, and the minor amendments to tions, from which all ideas for the be made will further define and Australian Wool Industry Conference strengthen these important details and the Australian Wool Board and will provide some protection to emanate, have also agreed to the the consumer. In these days when amendments being made because there are so many alternatives to they have the responsibility of carry animal fibres' on the market it is im ing out the wishes of the producers. portant that further protection should The Bill amends section 92 of the be given to the consumer to ensure Goods Act and makes feasible the that he knows exactly what he is marking of textiles or materials that buying. are woven from the spun yarn to en Many problems are associated with sure that these materials or textiles the marking of textile products be contain a certain percentage of animal cause of the inroads of man-made hair. In his second-reading speech the fibres, and the importance of the wool Minister advanced reasons why this is industry to Victoria in particular, and necessary. The gatherers of animal to Australia generally, is such that hair that is blended in wool products the highest possible standards must must have an opportunity to pre be maintained in the marking and sent their products in a reasonable promotion of all products. The minor manner, but one wonders how far amendments contained in the Bill will one can go before detracting from assist in this regard. Because syn the advantages of pure wool thetic fibres are now being used to garments. such a great extent in the community, The "woolmark" symbol is in I suggest that in future negotiations world-wide use and can be seen on with the other five States and the the garments that most of us wear. Commonwealth the Minister should It is the symbol of the wool grower take steps to ensure that provisions and is sponsored by the Australian relating to synthetic fibres are in Wool Board and the International cluded in the legislation. The Opposi Wool Secretariat. It is promoted tion does not oppose the Bill because from a levy made on the wool growers it believes that the sensible labelling and a contribution made by the of garments and textiles protects the Federal Government, and can now consumer. be used for a purpose different Mr. TREWIN (Benalla).-The from the original intention. The Country Party supports this small but wool symbol on a fabric indicates important Bill because it will be bene that it is being sponsored by the ficial to the wool producers of Aus Australian Wool Board or the 'Inter tralia and the textile industry. The national Wool Secretariat. various producer organizations in Wisely, the blending of wool with volved have agreed to the amend certain animal fibres has been suc ments proposed. The Australian cessfully undertaken. Where certain 2470 Goods (Textile [ASSEMBLY.] ProduCts) Bill. man-made fibres are blended with The Bill was read a second time wool, it is necessary to indicate the and committed. percentage of the fibres used in the manufacture of the fabric. In this Clause 1 was agreed to. case, the wool symbol may not be Clause 2, relating to textile used to indica te that the article products containing a mixture of con tains wool. wool with certain other fibres. Under the proposed new sub Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour section (2A) of section 92, it is pro and Industry).-The honorable mem posed to' permit the wool symbol to ber for Moonee Ponds suggested that be used on fabrics containing a mix proposed paragraph (ca) should in ture of wool and the specialty animal clude "soft floor coverings". It fibres listed in the sub-section. I seems to me that the definition pro should like the Government to con posed in the paragraph is sufficiently sider including in the list of speciality wide to cover what may be called animal fibres the fibre of the Pyrenean soft floor coverings. However, I shall mountain dog. This animal is a examine the matter. shepherd dog which is used mainly in the Pyrenees between France and The honorable member for Benalla Spain. There are several of these referred to the Pyrenean mountain dogs in Australia and last week, at a dog, and was quite sincere in suggest function in Benalla, two couples ing that the fibre of this animal should using old pedal-type spinning wheels be included in proposed sub-section were weaving scarves from the hair (2A) of section 92 of the principal of this dog. The finished product felt Act. I remind him that this Bill will like silk. I should like the fibre from make the Victorian legislation uni this dog to be included in the form with similar legislation through provisions of the Act. out Australia. I do not know whether Pyrenean mountain dogs exist in New The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon South Wales or at Albany. However, Christie).-The honorable member I shall examine the incidence of these has mentioned that twice. animals in Australia. Mr. TREWIN.-I hope that I have The clause was agreed to. been able to influence the Minister, who has shown a keen interest in the The Bill was reported to' the House blending of wool and other fabrics, without amendment, and passed to initiate appropriate action. It through its remaining stages. should be possible to include this fibre in blended wool fabrics and still MOTOR CAR (FURTHER enable the material to carry the wool AMENDMENT) BILL. symbol. It is necessary for the hair of these dogs to be trimmed at The debate (adjourned from regular intervals. November 14) on the motion of Mr. Meagher (Minister of Housing) for Because I have an interest in the the second reading of this Bill was production of wool, I may be a little resumed. biased, but I feel that the amend ments provided in the Bill will ensure Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-This Bill provides for a number of amend that all textiles are marked for sale ments to the Motor Car Act. Whilst in a manner that will be easily recog the measure does not do everything nizable by the public. The Country that it should to ensure that some Party supports the Bill and believes brake will be applied to the road toll the wool industry in Australia is during the Christmas holiday per'iod, successfully promoting and extending at least several of the provisions may the use of wool products. help to relieve the critical situation The motion was agreed to. that obtains in this sphere. Motor Car (Further [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Amendment) Bill. 2471 Among other things, the Bill pro took the Opposition a long time to vides that a fi~herman may now be convince the Government that there come a primary producer 'for the pur was a distinction between a proba poses of the Motor Car Act, and tionary driver who at one time-not authorizes the Chief CommIssioner of very long ago-in this State obtained Police to cancel the record in the a licence to drive a MinI Minor or any register of motor vehicles of the name other small vehicle, and a driver who of any proprietor of a motor car or obtained a licence which entitled him trailer who fails to give notice that to drive a car or commercial vehicle he has ceased to be the proprietor of other than an articulated vehicle. a vehicle. No doubt this proposal is However, after gentle persuasion from to deal with an administrative problem the Opposition, the Government has which has developed in the Motor decided to make a distinction in these Registration Branch, as it would not licences. be possible for the police to keep track of the number of vehicles that Even so, in the Opposition's view change hands if persons neglect to and certainly in the view of the Road notify the Motor Registration Branch Safety Committee established by the that they are no longer the owners Government-it is still necessary to of particular vehicles. It is proper that have some restriction on speeds at the police should have access to the which learner and probationary owner of a vehicle at short notice, drivers may travel. The Government and the only way this can be done is has seen fit to set that limit at 50 for the register to be kept completely miles an hour. In other States, the up to date. limit is lower. No doubt the Govern ment has been advised that 50 miles The Bill also provides for the an hour is a reasonable speed limit to registration without fee of a private impose on probationary drivers. From trailer owned by a beekeeper and used an analysis of accidents which occur, solely in his business. This occupa it would seem that it is not necessary tion will be included in the list of for a person to travel as fast as 50 those which are exempted from pay miles an hour to be involved in a ing fees under certain conditions for serious accident; in fact, the Road the registration of private trailers. In Safety Committee has received evi regard to the other amendments con dence that accidents have occurred at tained in the measure, I wish to advert much lower speeds. The vehicle of particularly to one which is of some today is fairly difficult to control at importance to the community and such a speed, especially with an in which is certainly important to this experienced driver at the wheel. How Parliament. I refer to the restriction ever, the Government has decided to that the Bill proposes to place on pro set the limit at 50 miles an hour, but I bationary drivers. It is well estab think it could be reduced to 45. This lished that probationary or young provision applies for only the first drivers are involved in a very high twelve months of the three-year proportion of the accidents which probationary period. occur in this State. It is not possible to determine statistically the exact It will be obligatory on the pro number of persons under the age of bationary driver to display on the 25 years who are involved in such front and rear of the motor car a accidents because all accidents are plate clearly marked with the letter not reportable-this applies only in " P " for the first twelve months of the cases where injury or a fatality probationary period. This will not occurs. only safeguard the driver himself, but will make other motorists aware that The Bill proposes to bring in a speed he is a learner-driver; and in some limit for probationary drivers some cases people may see fit to make what in line with that which obtains exceptions of the driving pattern of in the other States. I point out that it the probationary driver. This point 2472 Motor Car (Further [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment) Bill. was freely discussed by the Road If a licence is cancelled, there is no Safety Committee both here and inter guarantee that the person concerned state, and it is thought that the pro will not drive a motor· vehicle. The vision will be of considerable help. mere sending of licences to the Chief The Bill provides also for the com Commissioner for safe custody will pulsory cancellation of the licence if not guarantee that there will be fewer a probationary driver is convicted of unlicensed drivers on the road. exceeding the speed limit in the pro Mr. JONA.-This smartens the bationary period. The court will have procedure. no option, and if a driver is detected exceeding the speed limit he will lose Mr. WILKES.-Yes, but it offers his licence. no concrete assurance that it will reduce the number of unlicensed The measure also proposes the drivers on the road. The only way in removal from section 26 of the Motor which the problem of unlicensed Car Act of references to the endorse drivers can be ,surmounted is to have ment on driving licences of particu more police; but that is not the lars of certain traffic offences. I do not know the real purpose subject of this debate. of this provision, but I should have The Government has gone part of thought that ,a policeman apprehend the way, but I am disappointed that ing a motorist would, 'On production it has not examined mOore closely the of the licence, be aware that the report of the Road Safety Committee. driver was accident-prone or other If the Government had done that, and wise. However, for some unknown if it had treated with more respect reason it has been decided to remove some of the decisions taken by the the provisions 'Of section 26 of the committee in connexion with road principal Act empowering the court safety, that committee might have to order a licence to be endorsed. been ,able to suggest a far more Instead, it is proposed that the holder definite approach to the problem. of a driving licence that has been Parliament has established the Statute cancelled must return the licence to Law Revision COommittee, the Public the clerk of Petty Sessions, who will Works Committee and other com return it to the Chief Commissioner mittees, which do valuable work. If of Police. matters either inside or outside of This wHI not necessarily mean that Parliament need to be inquired into, the roads will be free of unlicensed I cannot think of a better body to drivers. Of the number of motorists carry out the investigation than a who are apprehended for breaches of Parliamentary committee. The estab the Motor Car Act and the road traffic lishment of other committees with regulations, 2 per cent. are unlicensed which officers of Government Depart drivers. It is reasonable to 'assume ments are associated is a reflection that far more than 2 per cent. of upon the ability of members of Parlia drivers have either had their licences mentary committees. I do not wish cancelled or have never obtained to say anything further on that sub licences. I do not understand how ject, except that the Road Safety the amendment of section 26 in the Committee is a competent one and is manner proposed and the requirement quite capable of dealing with some of that the holder of a cancelled licence the problems which have been refer shall return it to the court will rectify red to outside committees. the situation. I am not suggesting that, in some cases, driving The Bill also proposes to empOower licences should not be cancelled, officers of the Country R'Oads Board but the Crimes Act and the to prosecute in cases where the holder Motor Car Act already contain pro of a special permit is operating within visions authorizing the cancellation the metropolitan area. Section 90 of of a licence fOor certain breaches. the principal Act refers to areas which Mr. Wilkes. Motor Car (Further [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Amendment) Bill. 2473 are considered to be inside the metro There is a distinctiDn between politan area. Clause 11 of this careless driving and driving in a measure provides---- dangerous manner, but only careless At the end of sub-section (2) of section driving is mentioned in the proposed 90 of the Principal Act there shall be inserted amendment. A motorist might drive the following words:- through a traffic signal because he "or on any highway within the greater is nDt paying attentiDn, and that is metropolitan municipalities within the mean a careless act, but surely it does not ing of sub-section (IA) of section 35. " warrant a penalty of five times the Sub-sectiDn (2) ·of section 90 refers amount which is now provided in the to the municipalities in which this principal Act. It may well be that the power is to be given to Country Roads penalties ShDUld be increased, and the Board officers. I think this amend Opposition dDes not argue that in ment is necessary since to a certain some instances they should not be extent it removes from the police and increased, but the offence should be municipal traffic officers the onus in more clearly defined. If, for instance, relation to trailers and cDmmercial a motorist disobeys a road sign, or vehicles operating under permits in fails to keep to the left, there is no these areas. doubt about it. He is proceeded against under the Road Traffic Regu Clause 10 'Of the Bill provides for lations. If a motodst is charged with increased penalties for breaches of the careless driving, however, even Motor Car Act. The penalty provided thDugh he does not know, strictly, in sub-section (1) of section 81 of the what the 'Offence is, he may have to principal Act for careless driving is pay a penalty of $100. Although it to be increased from $20 to $100 for is possible that some careless driving a first 'Offence, and from $50 to $250 is not as dangerous as other breaches for a second or subsequent offence--- of the Road Traffic Regulations, the in other words, a five-fold increase. Government has decided that these Careless driving is a serious offence, are to be the penalties. but there is no statutory definition of it in this State. The determination In comparisDn, under the Motor of what is careless driving is left Car Act it is ,an offence for a motorist solely to the courts when dealing with to contravene any provision of the cases brought at the discretion of a Act or the regulations made there policeman or 'Other law enforcement under, and the maximum monetary officers. I remind honorable members penalty is $40 for a first offence that anything other than safe driving and $100 for a subsequent offence. can be regarded as careless driving. Clause 12 amends section 93 of the It is typical of the Government that principal Act and empowers the Gov this provision is very loose. It pro ernor in Council to prescribe penalties for breaches of the regulations. In poses to increase the penalty that a concluding his explanatory speech, court may impose on a driver who, the Minister stated---- on an information laid by a pDliceman, The Government believes that the Gov is convicted of careless driving, even ernor in Council should be empowered to though he may have made 'Only the prescribe a higher penalty for the offence one mistake. In the Opposition's of driving an unroadworthy motor car. The amendment will enable a penalty of up to view, the Government should have $100 to be prescribed for that offence or any defined careless driving before pre other offence under the regulations. scribing penalties for it. Such a The Road Safety Committee definition should enable a policeman thoroughly investigated the incidence ----and, for that matter, a driver----to of unroadworthy vehicles in Victoria, determine beyond doubt whether a New South Wales, Queensland, and motorist is in breach of the careless Tasmania. The committee found that driving prDvisions of the Motor Car although it was difficult accurately to Act. assess the number of accidents that 2474 Motor Car (Further [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment) Bill. could fairly be attributed to unroad absence of a definition, it is possible worthy vehicles, it was reasonable to that the proposed increased penalties suggest that at least 2 per cent. of the will not prove as effective as they accidents could be put down to this would otherwise have been. cause. Mr. ROSS-EDWARDS (Shep- It is interesting to note that 70 per parton) .-Members of the Country cent. of motor vehicles in Victoria are Party support this Bill, which will not tested for roadworthiness. The make a multitude 'Of amendments to Opposition believes there should be the Motor Car Act and the Stamps an annual compulsory roadworthi Act. Many of the amendments are ness test of all vehicles. This opinion purely administrative in nature, while is based 'On a careful examination of others are matters of fundamental the situation which exists in other importance. We support the proposed States. I realize that a vehicle in amendment to the definition of spected today and found to be in a "primary producer", which will roadworthy condition may not be correct an anomalous situation that roadworthy tomorrow. However, it has existed. is apparent, even to a layman, that many vehicles which traverse our Clause 10, which amends section 81 State highways are unroadworthy. of the principal Act, will increase the Some motor cars have had made to penalties for careless driving. Like them adjustments which were not the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, contemplated by the manufacturer I cannot understand why this increase when the vehicles were designed, and is proposed. Normally, a person who which could make them unroad is prosecuted for a traffic violation is worthy. charged with a specific offence. In my experience, a person is charged with There is no way of checking the offence of careless driving only whether vehicles are roadworthy when no specific offence can be attri other than for the police to organize buted to him. In the past, the driving spot checks, which involve the setting of a vehicle in a careless manner has up of road blocks and stopping been regarded as a minor traffic perhaps every third vehicle, or appre offence, not nearly as bad as danger hending motorists who are driving ous driving or reckless driving. In cars which appear to have some future, heavier penalties will be im defect. The Opposition recognizes posed for careless driving. I do not tha t roadworthiness checks occupy understand why this provision is con much time of the police, but it sidered necessary. Possibly, it is to believes annual checks of this type enable careless driving to be used as would prove beneficial. Because no an alternative charge or as a stop-gap stone should be left unturned in an charge. effort to reduce the road toll, the Opposition believes action should be The Bill also proposes to restrict taken to ensure that all motor vehicles probationary drivers to a speed not are properly maintained. It is doubt exceeding 50 miles per hour during ful whether the increased penalties the first twelve months of the proba provided in this Bill will significantly tionary period of three years, and to decrease the road toll. require them to display "P" plates on their motor vehicles during that By and large, the amendments in period. These provisions are interest this Bill are acceptable to the Opposi ing and members of the Country tion. 'I think the Government should Party hope that they will achieve the have attempted to define the expres purpose designed for them. The pro sion "careless driving" and thereby vision relating to "P" plates has justify the proposed increases in been suggested to the Government on penalties for this offence. In the many previous occasions, but the Mr. Wilkes. Motor Car (Further [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Amendment) Bill. 2475 matter has been ignored. The pro drivers in Victoria will be restricted posal to restrict probationary drivers to the lowest maximum speed in Aus to a speed not exceeding 50 miles per tralia. In Tasmania, where the maxi hour is important. Obviously, a young mum speed for all vehicles is 65 miles person of eighteen years of age who per hour, the maximum speed for pro has just obtained a driver's licence bationary drivers is 50 miles per hour. is not sufficiently skilled to drive at In New South Wales, the maximum high speeds. The innovation of this speed for provisional licence holders speed limit should assist to reduce is 40 miles per hour. It is interest the road toll. The Country Party ing to note the effect that the supports the Bill. introduction of this restriction on 4th January, 1966, has had on road Mr. JONA (Hawthorn).-In speak accidents. It will also be interesting ing briefly in support of the Bill, I to note what effect the provision in should like to refer to several matters this Bill will have on road accidents in raised by the honorable member for this State. For the first twelve Northcote. Under the Bill, penalties months following the introduction for careless driving will be increased of the provisional driving speed five-fold for both first and subsequent limit in New South Wales in offences. These penalties will be 1966, there was a 10 per cent. brought into line with other penalties reduction in accidents for drivers in the legislation. The honorable with less than one year's experience. member for Shepparton provided a reasonable definition of the expres In the first half of 1967-the latest sion "careless driving". He stated period for which figures are avail that in his experience a motorist who able-the number of drivers with was charged with careless driving was experience of between one and two one against whom no specific charge years who had accidents dropped by could be laid. The new penalties will approximately 20 per cent. This be brought into line with the penalties would suggest that the imposition which already exist for the more of a maximum driving speed for serious charges of dangerous driving probationary drivers had a bene and reckless driving. At present, the ficial effect not only in the first year maximum penalty for dangerous driv but also in the second and subse ing for a first offence is a fine of $200 quent years. I think it will be or imprisonment for six months and agreed that this legislation is de disqualification of the licence for a sirable although one could argue period of not less than six month, and whether the maximum permitted for a second or subsequent offences speed should be 40, 45 or 50 miles it is imprisonment for twelve months, per hour. In my view, the maximum cancellation of the licence and dis speed of 50 miles per hour proposed qualification from driving for not less by the Government is desirable be than six months. There is a marked cause it is consistent with the speed difference between careless driving limit which is at present imposed on and reckless or dangerous driving, the highway, the only difference be and the respective penalties will be ing that, where a person is charged more consistent. with exceeding this speed limit, he is In relation to the proposal to given the opportunity in court of restrict probationary drivers to driv proving that he was not driving at a ing at a speed not exceeding 50 miles speed which was dangerous having per hour, I agree with the honorable regard to all the circumstances. A member for Northcote that many probationary driver who is charged people have asked what is the desir with travelling in excess of 50 miles abl~ maximum speed limit that should per hour will not have that oppor be imposed. It is not true, as the tunity. honorable member stated, that this Mr. WILKEs.-He will be charged provision will mean that probationary with careless driving. 2476 Motor Car (Further l ASSEMBLY. 1 Amendment) Bill. Mr. JONA.-No, he will be charged Mr. TREWIN (Benalla).-This Bill simply with exceeding 50 miles per contains a number of good amend hour and will be subjected to the ments. Paragraph (b) of clause 2 statutory penalties, which will in provides- include loss of his licence. I believe In the interpretation of "Private trailer" the limit of 50 miles per hour is de after paragraph (a) there shall be inserted sirable in Victoria, having regard to the following paragraph :- the roads in this State, to the flow of "(aa) a bulk bin used exclusively for traffic on roads, and to the general holding grain; and". speed at which traffic travels along This matter was discussed with the the roads. I suggest that a lower Chief Secretary twelve or eighteen figure-say 40 miles per hour months ago, and members of the could constitute a road hazard on a Country Party are pleased that a bulk busy highway. bin is to be included as agricultural I support the remarks of the equipment when it is used exclusively Deputy Leader of the Opposition in in the conduct of business. We thank relation to unroadworthy vehicles. the Government for this small The provision in this Bill which amendment. authorizes the Governor in Council to Clause 7 relates to probationary impose penalties up to $100 for any licences and the conditions under breach of the regulations, including which they are to be issued. The driving an un road worthy vehicle, is a proposals should benefit young per further step forward. Of course, all sons who at eighteen years of age this provision will do is to increase obtain their first driving licence. the area in which penalties may be Although some young people may imposed for unroadworthy vehicles; consider that the proposed restriction it will not do anything to reduce the to 50 miles per hour is rather severe, incidence of unroadworthy vehicles on I believe this is an indication to the the road. I support the suggestion of person concerned that the granting the Deputy Leader of the Opposition of a driving licence carries with it that the Government should seriously certain responsibilities. It should b~ consider the report which has been considered to be a privilege to hold submitted by the Road Safety Com a driving licence. The granting of a mi ttee on the roadworthiness of licence indicates that a person is per vehicles. This report has arisen from mitted to drive a motor vehicle within the most comprehensive study that the State, almost without restriction, has ever been made in this country provided that he obeys road signs and on this subject. Whilst the report may the rules of the road. The proposed not necessarily be extremely penalty for any breach of the regula voluminous, it sets out firm recom tions by a probationary driver is not mendations which are based-as the too severe. Some young people, on appendices to the report indicate obtaining a driving licence, consider on a vast amount of evidence taken that they have the right of way in all throughout the country. I suggest circumstances. It should be brought that this is another area to which the home to them that although they Government might give further con have the privilege of holding a driv sideration with a view to reducing .ing licence, this privilege carries with motor car accidents. This Bill is it certain responsibilities. another step forward not only in re A motor vehicle which is driven by gard to streamlining procedures with a person who holds a probationary respect to certain provisions of the licence must display a "P" plate on Motor Car Act but also in making the front and rear of the vehicle further contribution in the attempt to during the first twelve months of the meet the problem of the road toll in probationary licence. This require this State. ment will remind probationary Motor Car (Further [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Amendment) Bill. 2477 licence-holders that they are in Recently, when travelling alone, a experienced, and it will also enable friend of mine had a similar experi experienced motorists to assist pro ence: His car rolled over three times, bationary licence-holders. We, as but he crawled out with only a small members of Parliament, should take bone broken in an arm. This accident every opportunity to impress upon was also caused by a stone thrown up every motorist the need to assist by another vehicle shattering his inexperienced drivers wherever windscreen. He said that if he had possible. been killed, the real cause of the accident would never have been As one who lives in the country and known and it would have been who travels along the Hume High assumed that he simply ran off the way, the amendment contained in road. Surely unshatterable wind clause 9 interests me. For some screens could be manufactured to years, it has been permissible for overcome the hazard of flying stones. passenger buses to exceed 8 feet in The Bill is a good one and the Country width whereas commercial goods Party supports it. vehicles and vehicles owned by primary producers have been re Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick stricted to a width of 8 feet. It is West) .-For some time, careless proposed that the maximum width of driving has been regarded by lawyers all motor vehicles may be increased as the minimum type of driving to 8 ft. 2t in. It is in the interests of offence. One does not have to move the publIc generally that loads on much further to get into the realms huge transports which travel the of dangerous driving. Most cases of careless driving have been due to highway should be safely tied. The errors of judgment, and even poli provision contained in clause 9 ticians can be guilty of such errors. will enable transport opera tors to The lawyer is the alter ego of the fasten their loads more securely. defendant, and must battle against the Everyone is interested in the condi possibility of conviction for dangerous tion of motor vehicles on the road. driving. If he is successful in having Two features frequently cause the charge broken down to careless trouble, namely, the condition of the driving, he believes he has had a good tyres and the windscreens. People day. This Bill proposes to alter the who drive vehicles with bald tyres penalty for careless driving from $20 are a danger on the highways. Tyres to $100 for a first offence, and this are manufactured to withstand high takes it out of the category of an error speeds under great pressure, but when of judgment. Therefore, the charge worn they can become dangerous. A of carelessness has lost its real signi man cannot go without shoes; if they ficance. Old English law used this are in a state of disrepair, he is soon definition- looking for a shoe repairer. The same It is an offence to drive without due care principle should apply to tyres. and attention. The offence may be com mitted by a driver whose lack of care is Vehicles should be fitted with un due to error of judgment. shatterable windscreens. Honorable The courts have decided that most members have frequently seen heaps offences of careless driving have been of windscreen glass lying by the road caused by errors of judgment. The side. Last week, a youth was killed present penalty of $20 is a substantial at Mansfield. His companion was not sum to working people, and it is out injured, and he said that the accident rageous for the Government to pro happened because a stone thrown up pose a maximum fine of $100. The from a truck shattered the wind penalty for this offence should not be screen. If he had not survived this increased. If, on further considera accident, the cause of the fatality tion, it is thought that a higher penalty would never have been known. is warranted, it should be increased 2478 Motor Car (Further [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment) Bill. to only $40 to keep pace with the Parliament House, and in the opposite inflation of the currency. The Premier direction, are subjected to the serious would not like to see a person guilty risk of being run down by cars driven of an error of judgment become liable by people who, under the amendment to a heavy penalty of this nature. proposed by this Bill, should be When the clauses are considered in charged with careless driving. The Committee, I hope honorable mem same traffic hazard exists on the southern side of Bourke-street for bers who are familiar with this type pedestrians crossing to Parliament of offence, and I refer particularly to House. No green arrow indication is the honorable member f'Or Gisborne given to pedestrians, and, to use a for whom I have the greatest respect, colloquial expression, they are sub will be heard. jected to the hazard of running rabbit Mr. LOVEGROVE (Sunshine). between the cars proceeding from I again raise the question of the Bourke-street and turning south into pedestrian crossing opposite Parlia Spring-street. It is physically impos ment House. This matter was raised sible for some people, particularly on several occasions by the Minister elderly women, to cross the road on of Labour and Industry. The Deputy the green signal. If there is an in Leader of the Opposition raised it on tensity of traffic, it is physically four occasi'Ons, and I have raised it impossible for able-bodied males to once before. cross the road. The DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr. L. S. This subject has been brought to Reid).-Order! This subject does not the attention of the House on many come within the ambit of the Bill. occasi'Ons but nothing has been done. Mr. LOVEGROVE.-The Bill fixes On at least one occasion the Govern a substantial penalty for careless ment replied that the Traffic Commis driving, and careless driving can be sion considered that this traffic hazard seen outside Parliament House. The was all right. The situation opposite Government would not allow a similar Parliament House is completely dif traffic hazard outside Flinders-street ferent from the conduct of traffic station because the Railway Depart outside the New South Wales Parlia ment would not tolerate it. ment, where traffic is manually directed. It is also different Mr. WILKEs.-Or outside the Mel from the " Barnes dance" out bourne Town Hall. side the Myer Emporium in Mr. LOVEGROVE.-That is S'O. Bourke-street and at the Elizabeth street entrance to the Flinders Mr. RAFFERTY.-Or outside the street railway station. It is a reflec Trades Hall. tion on this incompetent Government. Mr. LOVEGROVE.-It does not The Government has the effrontery to occur outside the Trades Hall. Out provide astronomical penalties for side Parliament House the green light careless driving whilst permitting provides insufficient time for pedes this traffic hazard to exist outside trians to cross the road. When the Parliament House. The Government green arrow appears, a line of traffic relies too much on traffic authorities proceeds up Bourke-street and turns which have reduced Melbourne to left into Spring-street, and when the the worst traffic-controlled city in green light comes on pedestrians are Australia. in danger. Concerning traffic blitzes, I pro Mr. WILKEs.-The police do nothing pose to refer to a personal experience. about it. I make it plain that I do this neither Mr. LOVEGROVE.-That is so. in bitterness nor as a complaint. Women and children crossing from Everybody knows that any motorist the western side of Spring-street to who is booked in a traffic blitz for Motor Car (Further [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Amendment) Bill. 2479 an offence can only pay up and look revise the penalties under the owner pleasant. From time to time, the onus system. Traffic blitzes do not Traffic Commission re-arranges traf reduce the road toll, while persons fic lights throughout Melbourne. who have not acted detrimentally to Sometimes the signals are altered to road safety but have unintentionally prevent a right-hand tum. Some committed an offence which is under traffic signals operate only at certain standable or pardonable are penalized. periods during the week-end. If one Blitzes are responsible for alienating strikes a new traffic signal when a large section of public support for the sun is low in the sky and it is the Police Force. They have not necessary for the sun visor to be eliminated the drunken drivers, or the down, the driver may not see the irresponsible section of the com signal. This happened to me during munity who drive second-hand cars a traffic blitz. When stopping at which are disguised bombs and should traffic lights, before I turned right, be put off the road. They have I looked to the left and saw a police succeeded only in penalizing a large, car alongside me. When the lights generally responsible and respectable turned green, in good faith I turned number of 'citizens for minor breaches to the right and the police car of 'the law. followed me around. Next, I was If a policeman is satisfied that an accosted courteously by a policeman offence is pardonable, that it was not and asked why I had turned right. I dangerous, that it was unintentional informed him that I had not seen the and that the driver was the type of traffic signal. I make it clear that person who, if warned, would be I paid up. unlikely to repeat it, the policeman ,Mr. DUNSTAN .--IHow much? should be permitted to say to the offender, "I will let you go this Mr. LOVEGROVE.-Not a lot, but time ". the point is that I asked the constable whether he had been directed that Mr. WILKES.-The police do that in no circumstances must he accept in every other country. an excuse. He answered my question Mr. LOVEGROVE.-Of course they by saying that if he did not stop me do. The Department should adopt the from doing it somebody else would procedure that if a policeman detects do it, and that, in effect, it was in an offence under these circumstances, the interests of road safety that a warning notice should be given to everybody should be prosecuted, the driver and a record should be irrespective of his excuse. taken of the issue of the notite. If Traffic blitzes do not catch those the driver offends again, there will be categories of persons about whom I a record that a warning notice had asked a question recently-categories been issued. In this way, much of the that have been examined in every cause of the lack of sympathy for the other country and in certain other Police Force could be removed. I States, but not in Victoria, to ascer know the answer is that there are tain the groups of persons who drive insufficient police. cars. The person who makes an Mr. WILKEs.---Revenue would honest mistake receives a blister. decrease. The DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr. L. S. Mr. LOVEGROVE.-The insuffi Reid).-I am finding it difficult to ciency of police is one point, but relate the honorable member's revenue is the motivating factor remarks to the Bill. behind traffic blitzes. Mr. LOVEGROVE.-I am con Mr. MANSoN.-That is unfair. cerned that once the increased Mr. LOVEGROVE.-I do not intend penalties provided in the Bill are to repeat what I have said to other implemented, the Government will members of the Government, but I 2480 Motor Car (Further [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment) Bill. say deliberately that when blitzes are (b) After sub-section (4) there shall be held it is the duty of all policemen inserted the following sub-section:- to catch as many offenders as possible " (4A) Any person being the holder of a licence issued on probation under this Part for the day. The Deputy Leader of who within a period of twelve months after the Opposition may be correct when the date of issue of such licence drives a he suggests, by interjection, that motor car which does not have conspicu many of the policemen are inexperi ously on the front and rear thereof a plate clearly marked with a letter P and of the enced in traffic enforcement. What size and colour prescribed shall be guilty ever the reasons are, the blitzes are of an offence against this Part and liable futile. to a penalty of not more than $50." Before any legislation of this type Mr. MANSON (Minister 'Of State is passed, the Government should Development) .-1 move- revise the administrative procedures That, in paragraph (b), the word "sub section" where last occuring be omitted in traffic control. I do not desire to with the view of inserting the word "sub labour the question, but I particularly sections ". ask the Governmen t to remove The amendment was agreed to. the hazard outside Parliament House before somebody is killed by some Mr. MANSON (Minister of State motorist, who no doubt will then be Development) .-1 move- fined an astronomical amount for That, in paragraph (b), the following sub careless driving. section be inserted to follow sub-section (4A) :- Mr. A. V. SMITH (Bellarine). "(4B) Sub-sections (2A) and (4A) shall In supporting the Bill, I wish to direct not apply to a member of the police force who drives a motor car registered in the attention to clause 2 which amends name of the Victoria Police Department the definition of " primary producer" in the course of his duties as a member of to include the words "or any person the police force and who is the holder of being a commercial fisherman and an Approved Driver Certificate indorsed for holding a licence to take fish for the particular class of motor car being so sale". This will enable professional driven. " fishermen to obtain concessional Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-This motor registrations for their vehicles. astounding amendment proposes that Professional fishermen are engaged in a policeman who holds a probation harvesting a primary resource and it ary driver'S licence shall be permitted is necessary for them to use their to drive a police car. It provides that vehicles to transport fuel and equip if a policeman holding a probation ment to their boats and to convey the ary licence drives a police car, "P" harvest to the market or the cool plates do not have to be attached to store. Professional fishermen have the car. When the policeman is driv ing his own private vehicle, whilst been endeavouring to obtain this con off duty, " P" plates must be attached cession for many years and, from to the vehicle, but when he drives comments I have heard by various a police car there is no necessity for fishermen groups within the elec the plates, nor does he need to torate I represent, I understand that it obey the speed limit imposed on pro will be greatly appreciated. I com bationary drivers. The public would mend the Bill to the House. not know that a probationary driver The motion was agreed to. was driving a police car, and this is absurd. The Bill was read a second time Mr. RAFFERTY.-That is an attack and committed. on the Police Force. Clauses 1 to 6 were agreed to. Mr. WILKES.-It is not an attack Clause 7, providing, inter alia on the Police Force. It is an attack on the stupidity of the Government Section 22B of the Principal Act is hereby amended as follows :- in suggesting that a policeman can be two different persons-he can be Motor Car (Further [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Amendment) Bill. 2481 a probationary learner-driver while What is the "approved driver certi he is not on duty, but he can be a ficate" possessed by a policeman to competent driver when driving. a which the Minister adverted? Surely police vehicle. I suggest that the MIn it must be a licence to drive. ister should take the amendment Dr. JENKINS.-Is it in the Act? away and re-examine it, becau~e Mr. WILKES.-No. If the police under no circumstances can the man is a probationary driver, he Opposition support it. should not be allowed to drive a police Mr. MANSON (Minister of State vehicle, whether it be merely to run Development) .-1 do not intend to a message down the street or to go on patrol duty, unless he complies take the amendment away. In refer with the provisions of the Motor Car ring to the amendment, the Deputy Act. The public should be aware that Leader of the Opposition has care he is a probationary driver and that fully omitted reference to the words he is permitted to drive only up to "who drives a motor car registered 50 miles an hour on the open road in the name of the Victoria Police and 35 miles an hour in a built-up Department in the course of his duties area. A policeman cannot be two as a member of the Police Force, and persons. The Government cannot get who is the holder of an approved away with this proposal. driver certificate indorsed for the Sir JOHN BLOOMFIELD (Mal particular class of motor car being vern).-I do not pose as an expert so driven." The policeman must hold in this field, but I suggest that the the approved driver certificate. I Minister should have another look at have no intention of reconsidering this proposal between now and the the amendment. final approval of the Bill, because it Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-Is the appears that there is some indication of driving efficiency which is based approved driver certificate another not on length of experience but on form of licence about which we special training within the Police are not told? Is it something other Department which means that the than a licence to drive a vehicle? driver concerned can be trusted to If it is a licence to drive a the same extent as if he had had con vehicle, presumably it must be a siderably more experience. These are probationary licence, otherwise there persons who have had the opportunity is no necessity for the amendment. of receiving special training. With all There is no need to amend the clause, due respect to the Minister and the which provides for the insertion in Government, it appears to me that section 22B of the principal Act the there is an anomaly in the fact that a person who drives his own vehicle following two sub-sections- on Sunday must have a large placard (2A) Any person being the holder of a on the front of the vehicle saying, in licence issued on probation under this Part who within a period of 12 months after effect, "I am not an experienced the date of issue of such licence drives a driver. All of you drivers coming motor car at a speed exceeding 50 miles the other way look out for me. I am per hour shall be guilty of an offence against not certain where I am going", this Part and liable to a penalty of not more than $100.; whereas on Monday the same driver can drive a police vehicle on which (4A) Any person being the holder of a no such warning to the general public licence issued on probation under this Part who within a period of twelve months after is displayed. I suggest that this the date of issue of such licence drives anomaly should be examined before a motor car which does not have conspicu the Bill reaches its final destination. ously on the front and rear thereof a plate It appears to some honorable mem clearly marked with the letter P and of the size and colour prescribed shall be guilty bers that possibly a small inadvert of an offence against this Part and liable ence has occurred in the planning and to a penalty of not more than $50. drafting of this measure. 2482 Land Tax [ASSEMBLY.] Bill. Dr. JENKINS (ReservO'ir).-While the drought with bigger mortgage debts, I agree with the Deputy Leader of the which have to be repaid, for even the money which the Commonwealth Government made Opposition that a ludicrous position available for advances to farmers has to is being created, I, and probably other be repaid to the Commonwealth Govern honorable members, wonder what an ment. All this has hit the farmer at a time approved driver's certificate is. Per when his costs are rising, and when over seas influences are reducing farm incomes. haps the Minister could explain this In these circumstances the Government to the Committee. What is the believes that something more is called for statutory source of this certificate? Is than mere drought relief, and we propose it available only to a member of the to abolish land tax on land used for primary Police Force, or can it be obtained production. by members of the general public? That is the basic purpose of this Quite apart from whether a person measure, but it has several other is a good driver on some days but features. One is that it was necessary suspect on Sundays, the C'Ommittee during this sessional period for the should be informed what an approved Government to introduce ,a Bill fixing driver's certificate is. the rates of land tax for the calendar Mr. LOVEGROVE (Sunshine).-If year 1969. When introducing this the Minister does not intend to reply, measure, the Premier and Treasurer I shall endeavour to persuade him stated that the opportunity was being to do so. taken to bring forward some earlier Government proposals for changes Mr. MANSON (Minister of State in the Land Tax Act. So, briefly, the Development).-I do not require any Bill exempts from land tax all further persuasion. In view of the lands used for primary production; eloquence of the honorable member secondly, declares the rates of land for Malvern, the persistence of the tax on other lands for the calendar honorable member for Reservoir, the year 1969; thirdly, effects a number perspicacity 'Of the Deputy Leader of of amendments to the principal Act the Opposition and the plea of the to facilitate the use of municipal honorable member for Sunshine, I valuations ~or the purpose of land tax suggest that progress be reported. assessments; and, fourthly, provides for the transfer of land tax valuers Progress was reported. to the staff of the Valuer-General. LAND TAX BILL. The Treasurer expanded at some length on the last proposal, as The debate (adjourned from reported at page 1806 of the current November 19) on the m'Otion of Sir Hansard. These proposals concerning Henry Bolte (Premier and Treasurer) the use of municipal valuations are for the second reading of this Bill was complementary to and are linked up resumed. with the provisions 'Of the Valuation Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne).-This of Land (Amendment) Bill, which is Bill, which was introduced by the at present before another place. In Premier and Treasurer on the 19th other words, instead of making his November last, was based on a pro own assessments the Commissioner nouncement made by the honorable of Land Tax will be authorized to gentleman in his Budget speech on use valuations made, by other rating the 18th September, one paragraph authorities and by the Valuer-General. of which read- The Bill also contains several Fortunately the drought has broken, and unrelated amendments dealing with prospects this year are for a good season. the aggregation of land holdings of Yet it must not be forgotten that the farmer has suffered a permanent loss. Behind the companies for the purpose of deter statistics of the poor wheat harvest, the fall mining the appropriate rate of land in stock numbers, the loss of wool produc tax. Corporations which have sub tion, and the falling wool prices, stand all the individual farmers who have suffered stantial interests in each other or one serious losses of income. They come out of of which is a subsidiary of another Land Tax [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2483 Dr related to' it will also be brDught I direct attentian to' the fact that under certain restrictiDns. There is a anly a relatively small number af further prDpDsal in the measure to' thase whO' live in rural areas awn permit the lessee to' pay land tax. At land that is used far primary pra present this is debarred by section 7 ductian, So' that this cancessian is nat Df the principal Act. far the benefit af the great majarity af the residents in cauntry districts; The Bill alsO' cDntains one Dr twO' it is far the benefit af a certain minDr prDvisiDns. Let us deal first sectian, many af wham are in a far with the basic and prDbably the Dnly happier pasitian finanCially than the prDvisiDn in the Bill to' which strDng majarity af members af this Hause. exceptiDn may be taken and which The prapasal is that in cauntry areas, certainly is Dpen to' criticism. This ar even in areas clDse to' the metra is the prDposal to' exempt frDm land palitan area, land that is used far tax permanently-nDt tempDrarily primary praductian shall be exempt all land used fDr primary prDductiDn, fram the payment af land tax. HDW irrespective Df whether the hDlder is ever, the amDunt af $2,300,000 must a milliDnaire Dr has Dr has nDt suffered be made up because Victoria's deficit to' any great extent because -Df the is taO' seriaus for the GDvernment to drDught, and irrespective of whether say, "We will relieve this section of the land is held by a cDrpDratiDn, the community from the payment of either IDcal Dr fDreign. SO' IDng as land tax because it has suffered the land is used fDr primary prD during the drought". The Gavern ductiDn the Dwner will be exempt frDm ment must obtain the money from land tax. CDmpanies registered at Can samewhere else. berra in Drder to' evade taxatiDn and The small businessman who has stamp liability will alsO' be exempt land warth mDre than $25,000 in the frDm land tax if they hold land country districts-those whO' are which is used fDr primary prDductiDn. running small industries-will be re In Dther wDrds, the wall has been quired to' pay an extra 10 per cent. af breached to' such an extent that land tax, and thDse in the metrapalitan certain peaple, whether they deserve area whO' have land warth more than temparary ar permanent relief, will be that amaunt will alsO' be required to exempted fram the payment af land pay the extra tax. Will this action tax. The palicy, "TO' him that hath on the part of the Gavernment it shall be given", is applicable in encaurage peaple to establish this case. Taday, in relatian to' this industries in the cauntry and will it aspect, I asked the Premier and assist in decentralizatian of industry? Treasurer the fallawing questian :- Persans whO' wish to' became estab lished in the cauntry will be tald, "If What amount was payable last calendar yau mave to' the country yau will year in respect of land tax on land used have to' pay extra land tax sa that for primary production? we can help yaur neighbaur whO' runs The answer supplied was- a few sheep, gaats ar bees Dn the land. Yau must pay extra tax far the Approximately $2,300,000. benefit that we are giving him ". In his secand-reading speech an this The Treasurer did nat tell the Hause Bill an 19th Navember, the Treasurer how much this can cession wauld cast, did nat even have the caurtesy to' tell althaugh the infarmatian has been the HDuse exactly what wauld be the supplied in reply to' my questian extent af the relief that was to' be taday. Accarding to' the Budget given to' primary praducers under this figures, the tatal amount which is prapasal. The hanarable gentleman expected to' be received fram land did, Df caurse, say that anather small tax during the current financial year sectian af the cammunity wauld have is just under $21,000,000. In ather to' pay far it. wards, far a certain sectian af the 2484 Land Tax [ASSEMBLY.] Bill. community one-ninth of that revenue $204.90 relates not to the tax applic will be waived. In order to find out able to primary producers, but to the how many people would benefit as a tax payable on an ordinary land result of the proposed concession, I holding used for purposes other than asked the Treasurer- primary production. The amount of What number of taxpayers was so $204.90 represents the ordinary tax assessed? payable on property worth $33,500. The total unimproved value was In reply, the honorable gentleman approximately $2,064,135,559 and the stated- number of notices of change of owner This figure was not readily available from ship received totalled 172,937. land tax records- It is interesting to note that the reply Schedule II sets out an analysis of did not state that the information was 1967 land tax assessments based on not available; it stated that it was unimproved value at 31st December, not readily available. The answer 1966. The figures start from valua proceeded- tions in various grades ranging from as many land tax assessments include both $6,001 to $7,000 up to $1,000,000 and land used for primary production and other over. The number of taxpayers in land. this last category was 94 and the total If the Government knows that the tax payable by them amounted to proposed concession to primary pro $7,463,328. I should be surprised if ducers will cost approximately there are not one or two primary pro $2,300,000, surely it can state how ducers whose properties fall within many assessments are involved. After this category. If all of this informa all, a number of assessments would tion is available for publication each be required to make up this amount. year, how can the Treasurer say that It is ludicrous for the Treasurer to he cannot advise the number of tell the House that although the total assessments for primary production amount paid last year in respect of land? The honorable gentleman land tax on land used for primary should have been able to supply it production was $2,300,000, he can weeks ago when this legislation was not state how many assessments were first contemplated. The total number issued to make up that amount. A of taxpayers last year was 100,471. computer could work it out in a few I wished to ascertain how many of seconds. these 100,471 taxpayers would derive . I have ip my possession a publica some benefit from the concession in tIon entItled Taxation Report this Bill and how many would be Analysis of Operations, which is pub required to pay extra tax for those lished annually. It relates to land tax, who were deriving benefit from the probate duty and entertainments tax, concession. I could understand the although I shall confine my remarks Government stating that the con to land tax. At page 6 of the publica cession was proposed because primary tion, Schedule I sets out the land tax producers had suffered a bad period. assessments made for each year from No honorable member would question a ~oncession of this type, but the year 1911 to 1967, the number of ObVIOusly all primary producers did taxpayers, the total tax paid, the not suffer to the same extent. In any average tax payable, the approximate event, for those who did suffer from unimproved value, and the notices of the drought, there is already adequate change of ownership. For the provision in section 91 of the Land calendar year ending 31st December, Tax Act which is headed, "Release 1967, the number of taxpayers was of tax in case of serious hardship". 100,471, the total tax amounted to It states- $21,585,226, and the average tax I!1 an¥ case where it is shown to the payable was $204.90. I might say in satIsfactIon of the Commissioner that any passing that the average tax of taxpayer liable to the payment of tax has Mr. Clarey. Land Tax [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2485 suffered such loss from bush fires drought fold". Obviously, the Government floods or other calamity or that owing to has introduced this measure as a sop low prices in respect of primary products in the year for which the tax is assessed to a section of the community. The the income derived by any taxpayer from policy of the Australian Labor Party land the subject of tax has been so reduced is for the gradual abolition of land that the exaction of the full amount of tax tax. During the regime of the Cain would entail serious hardship the Commis sioner shaU- Labor Government, the Federal Gov ernment vacated the field of land tax. I direct the attention of honorable It said to the States, "We are members to the fact that it does not vacating this field", and the Cain say that the Commissioner" may "- Government came back into it. If it release such t'axpayer wholly or in part had not done so, similar record from this liability or may postpone for such time as he thinks fit the payment of the deficits to those incurred by the Bolte tax and make such entries and alterations Government would possibly have in the assessment roll as are necessary for been incurred by the Cain Administra that purpose. tion. Why did the Government want to When the Cain Labor Government introduce this concession, which will reintroduced land tax, there was a have a permanent effect because of violent denunciation of it by the then some temporary calamity? After all, Leader of the Opposition, who is now the drought has broken ; it was not a the Premier and Treasurer. Upon permanent calamity, although it assuming office, the Treasurer carried might be a few years before the it on, but for political reasons he is primary producers. who suffered as starting to do another somersault and a result of it, will be able to recover is saying, "We will grant this con and get on their feet again. The cession to primary producers per Opposition would feel sympathetic manently ". There is no reason for towards these primary producers, but the Government to act in this manner thev are not the only ones who and the Labor Party is not happy suffered during the recent drought. about the position. Although our What about many small industries party might not have been particu and small businesses which suffered during the drought period? larly enthusiastic about it, we could still see a case made out for the small The Treasurer has admitted on man who is working his own block previous occasions that it was not of land. Country members frequently only the primary producers who speak of the struggle of the small suffered because of the drought, but man on the land, particularly those for some reason or another this farmers who must try to maintain a section of the community has been family on it. The Labor Party would singled out under this legislation. The have been quite happy to support a Opposition would not have objected if people who had lost jobs-not all proposal to exempt properties of this people who were affected were able to type if it was a family holding or obtain other employment-as a result where a holding was managed by an of the drought had received assis individual with perhaps a few rela tance. But why should the Govern tives. The Opposition would not have ment in this annual Bill-a Bill of this objected to the Bill if the Government type must be passed annually to fix had stated that, instead of providing the rates of land tax for each succeed that the exemption would apply to all ing year-include a provision which land used for primary production, it will have a permanent effect? To be should apply to land owned and realistic, we know that it is doubtful occupied by a natural person or if any future Government will by a corporation which is a have sufficient courage to say, "It is proprietary company incorporated about time that the primary pro in Victoria and all the members ducers were brought back into the of which are natural persons. 2486 Land Tax [ASSEMBLY.] Bill. That would mean that all the big com primary production exceeds a value panies and the absentee landholders of $140,000, tax amounting to $1,520 would have had to pay, but the is levied, but, on similar land not used genuine man working his own farm for primary production the tax is with the assistance of his family increased to $2,036. would be exempt. The Opposition is happy to foreshadow an amend The primary producer is receiving ment along those lines, and if I get generous treatment. Irrespective of the opportunity to do so during the whether the land is owned by mil Committee stage I shall move such lionaires or foreign corporations, the an amendment. Government proposes that they shall receive exactly the same concession I have outlined the other pro as will apply to the poor struggling visions, but I have not dealt with farmer working his own land. A few them in detail. In declaring the rates weeks ago the Country Party con of land tax for the calendar year demned the " Collins-street cockies ", 1969, the Bill provides only one table but now members of that party are setting out the duty payable. In pre saying, "It is all very well for the vious years two tables have been in city folk; if they have not the money cluded, Table A relating to land or to buy land in the country, it is bad lands used for primary production as luck. However, we must do some assessed under the Land Tax Act thing for these struggling 'Collins 1967, and Table B relating to land not street cockies'." used for primary production. This Bill A number of the amendments abolishes Table A because all land facilitate municipal valuations for the used for primary production will be purposes of land tax assessment. exempt from the payment of land tax. The staff of the Commissioner of The new table wili be the same as Land Tax will be transferred to the Table B under the 1967 Act, except administration of the Valuer-General, that where the land is valued at more to provide uniformity of valuations. than $25,000, the rates are being The Premier and Treasurer said that, increased by 10 per cent. consequent upon what had taken I would also point out that place in 1960 under the Valuation of under existing legislation primary Land Act, 52 municipalities were producers already receive substantial making valuations for the Commis concessions wh'ich owners whose sioner of Land Tax, who then issued land is used for other purposes do not assessments on the valuation. His receive. As an illustration, the speech must have been written some exemption from land tax for primary time ago, because in the pamphlet producers is $10,000, and a partial issued by the Land Tax Branch the degree of exemption is granted until Commissioner of Land Tax stated the figure of $20.000 is reached. The that- exemption for land not used for Valuations on unimproved capital value primary production is only $6.000, and of the following municipalities were made by the valuer for the municipality and not completely disappears at $9,000. The by the Commissioner of Land Tax, rate of land tax is far less on land used for primary production. Where the He then set out a list of 53 munici value of the land does not exceed palities. The Treasurer stated that $30,000, it is taxed at .42 cents per $1. there were only 52. Whoever wrote That figure is reduced to $17.500 on his speech did not have up-to-date land not used for primary production. figures. It is also taxed at .42 cents per $1 but The Opposition commends several the tax on land valued at $30,000 is aspects of the Bill, particularly $172. The tax on land used for the amendment to tighten up primary production at that figure is section 44 dealing with the aggrega only $126. Where land used for tion of holdings. This section pro- Mr. Clarey. Land Tax [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2487 vides that two or more corporations of land tax shall be qualified, after 31st having a substantial identity of December, 1968, by allowing the incorpora tion of a covenant in a lease by which the shareholders shall be deemed to be lessee agrees to reimburse the lessor for one corporation. The same provision the amount of land tax paid. applies in respect of companies that The side note to section 71 of the have interlocking directorates or principal Act states, "Contracts to companies which are subsidiaries in evade tax void". I presume there one case and holding companies in was some purpose in it. Sub-section another. Corporations which consist (1) of section 71 states- substantially of the same shareholders Every contract agreement or arrangement can be aggregated for assessment made or entered into in writing or verbally purposes, but the word " substantial" (whether before or after the commencement under the present definition means of this Act) shall be absolutely void in 75 per cent. of the holding. It is now so far as directly or indirectly it has or purports to have the purpose or effect of proposed to alter that definition to a in any way directly or indirectly holding exceeding 50 per cent. The altering the incidence of the tax or relieving same principle will apply with respect any person from liability to pay the tax or make any return or defeating evading to subsidiary companies. Land held or avoiding any duty or liability imposed by a corpora tion which comes on any person by this Act or preventing or within the definintion of sub-section limiting the operation of this Act in any (5) of section 6 of the Companies respect. Act-where one company holds more At present the lessor or the owner of than 50 per cent. of the shares in the land cannot say to the lessee or another company-will be aggre the tenant, "You must pay the land gated. It is common for business tax". I do not know how long purposes to split holdings into a the present provision has existed, but number of small separate companies, I assume there was some purpose for with one as a holding comoany. By its inclusion. Apparently looking this means pay-roll tax, land tax, and after the wealthy city people, the so on, are dodged. The Bill proposes Treasurer stated- to close this loophole. It has been drawn to our attention that Land owned by a mutual life the existing provisions militate against the use of the long-term purchase-lease as a assurance society and by registered means of financing the construction in Vic building societies have been subject toria of large office buildings and to tax of only five-twelfths of 1 cent other similar buildings ... Without the ability in the $1 irrespective of the value of to recover this tax, the investors must the land held. This measure repeals protect themselves in other ways. that concession. For some reason, After burning its heart out for the probably from the time of the primary producers, the Government inception of land tax, these assurance is now touched to the core regarding societies and registered building the welfare of investors. The Gov societies were assessed at the rate of ernment therefore tells the investors the absolute minimum of .42 cents in that they can say to the lessees, "You the $1. That concession will be with must pay the land tax". drawn, and the societies will be The Labor Party foreshadows an placed on the same basis as other folk. I shall not weary the House with amendment in regard tQ total exempt some of the smaller concessions tion of lands from land tax. The granted. Opposition will vote against the table because it represents a 10 per cent. I refer to the proposal to allow the increase in land tax on all lands lessees to pay the tax. In his second valued at more than $25,000, except reading explanatory speech, the those used for primary production. I Premier and Treasurer stated- shall leave it to honorable members It is also proposed that the provisions of section 71 making absolutely void any con to consider whether the IQgic of the tract purporting to transfer the incidence Opposition's case can convert them. 2488 Land Tax [ASSEMBLY.] Bill. Mr. MOSS (Leader of the Country Treasurer said as Leader of the Oppo Party) .-1 do not know how much sition thirteen or fourteen years ago. land tax the honorable member for I agree with the statement quoted. Melbourne pays, but I presume he Last year, when a Bill to declare the does not pay any. ra tes of land tax for 1968 was being debated, I moved an amendment to Mr. CLAREY.-I pay $50 a year. provide an exemption, as a first step Mr. MOSS.-Is that all! According towards its abolition, in respect of to the arguments advanced by the all lands outside the Port Phillip area, honorable member for Melbourne, it as defined in the Electoral Act. In is apparently all very well for view of the crocodile tears shed by primary producers, business people the honorable member for Melbourne and industry in the country to pay today for country businessmen, one land tax, but I remind him that Inany would normally expect him to support people throughout the State pay no such an amendment, but the record land tax. Basically, this Bill declares shows that, to a man, the Labor Party the rate of land tax for the coming voted against the Country Party's year. It also exempts land used for proposal, as did every member of the primary production, and provides that Liberal Party, including those repre municipal valuations may be used in senting country areas. I do not know arriving at assessments. how those members can justify their opposition to the proposal. The honorable member for Mel bourne made a violent attack on Of course, the honorable member primary producers and asked why for Melbourne uses an argument to they should be exempted from land suit the occasion. He vacillates like tax. Previous statements by the a metronome on the question of land honorable member -clearly illustrate tax. Twelve months ago, he voted that he believes land tax is a against a partial abolition of land tax, legitimate charge. In the 'Opinion and today he has made a violent of members of the Country Party attack on primary producers. He says and many other people through tha t the proposal contained in the out the State. it is not a legitimate Bill does not benefit a great number charge. The Commonwealth Govern of people in the coun try. One can ment vacated the field because it saw hardly seriously consider the argu the injustice of this tax. The Govern ments advanced by the honorable ment did not tell the States that once member when. on one occasion, he it vacated the field, they could impose says certain things to bolster up an land tax. The Victorian Government argument, and then, on another took this action of its own volition occasion, turns completely around on and for its own particular reasons. his tracks. The Country Party believes land tax Although the Country Party is not is a class tax and as such it should tremendously happy about the rates to be -abolished gradually over a period be declared under the Bill. because so that it will not unduly interfere they will be increased, it whole with the -State's budgeting. heartedly supports the exemption from land tax of lands used for prim It was interesting to hear the ary production. Costs of primary pro honorable member for Melbourne say duction are rising daily and returns that the exemption on primary land are diminishing. No one can deny did not benefit a great majority of that the major primary industries in people living in the country. He Victoria and in Australia are going asked about persons who were through a very testing time, and one establishing industries in country in which they especially merit the centres. Apparently, the honorable consideration of Governments. The member has a very short memory. wool grower has gone through a He quoted what the Premier and period of selling wool under the cost Land Tax [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2489 of production. Shortly, this House The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon will be asked to ratify a so-called Christie).-The honorable member is wheat stabilization scheme with a now discussing exports whereas the guaranteed price of 20 cents under Bill deals with land tax. the cost of production for export wheat up to 200,000,000 bushels. Mr. MOSS.-I am using the argu ment to support the proposed perma Mr. FLoYD.-The Country Party nent abolition, I hope, of land tax on will vote for the Bill. land used for primary production. The Country Party is not happy with Mr. MOSS.-I should not be game the incidence of increased land tax to attempt to anticipate what the because it indicates that the Treasurer honorable member for Williamstown proposes to retain land tax for some will do, because that is impossible. In considerable time to finance the the dairying industry which is a major affairs of the State. primary industry in Victoria, during the past twelve months there has been Land tax was first introduced to a reduction of 12 cents in price alone. break up large estates. In recent The comments by the honorable years, it has been used as a means of member for Melbourne indicate how obtaining revenue for the Treasury. far he is away from the basic In principle, the Country Party principle associated with this opposes land tax and believes that proposal. there should be other means of obtaining the necessary finance. Con The arguments for the exemption sequently, as a result of representa of primary lands from land tax was tions from the Country Party and submitted by the Graziers' Associa from other people, at least this small tion in a deputation to the Premier step, which I hope will be the first and Treasurer. The association per step towards the abolition of land haps more specifical1y stressed the tax in Victoria, is being taken. problems associated with wool pro Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the duction than other primary industries. Opposition) .-1 participate in this I have informed the House of the debate to' correct the serious misrepre serious position of some of the major sentations made by the Leader of the industries in Victoria. Country Party about the position of the honorable member for Melbourne. The quantity of primary produce In what I thought was a thoughtful that is exported produces wealth contribution, the honorable member for the benefit of the whole of Aus for Melbourne referred to the prob tralia, and helps to maintain the lems confronting every person in the nation's standard of living. This community in respect of land tax. I important function is exercised think it can safely be assumed that by primary producers in the course whatever is said on this problem by of their occupation; it is important an Opposition spokesman will be in the interests of the community at misrepresented by the Country Party. large. The simple approach adopted by Mr. CLAREY.-SO do many other the honorable member for Melbourne business interests. was that the exemption from land tax on land used for primary production Mr. MOSS.-I appreciate that, but may operate with undue harshness if something that is produced in upon certain sections of the com Australia is consumed in Australia, munity. This has been seized upon the money simply moves around; if for purely political purposes by it is sold to an overseas country, the members of the Country Party, who wealth comes into Australia and it run around the country saying, as is utilized as new wealth for this has been said in this House-quite country. fasely-that the honorable member 2490 Land Tax [ASSEMBLY.] Bill. for Melbourne has made a violent legitimate and proper objective of attack upon primary producers. If any Government which is doing its any honorable member should hang job properly to work towards the his head in shame before he speaks aboliti'On 'Of this tax. To that about anyone else in this House extent the Leader of the Country doubling back on his tracks, it is Party and I are in agreement. Mem a member of the Country Party. I bers of the Labor Party find it diffi do not want to remind the House cult to accept certain aspects of the of the clear undertakings, promises Bill. One is the proposal to abolish and statements which were made by land tax in respect of one section of the Country Party on the issue of the community and to increase it in workers compensation. respect of other sections. I believe If there is ·one person who is expert that is a bad principle. at misrepresenting statements of Looking at the beneficial aspects other members of this House in of the Bill, it seems fair to say that respect of their a tti tude to primary the prime reason given by the Premier producers, it is the honorable member and Treasurer for the introduction of for Benalla, who is at present inter this part of the proposed legislation jecting. During the last State elec was the difficulties experienced by tion campaign, the honorable member sections of the rural community as a went around the country areas saying result of the drought. As the honor that it was the policy of the Labor able member for Melbourne has al Party to socialize primary production. ready mentioned, the difficulty about The honorable member knew that this is that if any primary producer that was not true. has been adversely affected by the drought and is still so affected, there Mr. TREWIN (Benalla).-Mr. is power under the Act to en Speaker, on a point of order, I feel able him to obtain an exemption. that I am being misrepresented Therefore, it is disturbing for that because I did not address any meet point to be made the basis of ings other than in my own electorate. this Bill. It is disturbing because The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon presumably the implication that Christie).-There is no point of order. underlies the basis of the Treas The honorable member for Benalla has urer's proposition is that once the made a personal explanation. farming community has recovered from the effects of the drought, and Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the no doubt reaches new levels of pros Opposition) .-It is true to say that perity, this tax could be reimposed one of the traditional historical atti because that would be consistent tudes adopted by members of the with the reason given by the Premier Labor Party, and I think many other to Parliament for its abolition. members of the community, is that It would have been far more satis the imposition of land tax originated as a policy designed to break up large factory if the Government had come to grip~ with some of the real prob estates at a particular time in our lems which are facing the farming history. As the community has community not only of Victoria but developed and extended, that ap also of Australia and the whole world, proach to the problem of large estates particularly the western world. It is is no longer necessarily relevant. beyond argument that, at the present There are other substantial powers time, many grave problems confront vested in the Government which primary producers in this State. These would enable it to take action if it include the problems of rising costs. were concerned about the size of It is also true that in many instances large estates. the primary producer has a large I agree with the Leader of the amount of capital tied up and that Country Party that land tax ought the return he is receiving on that to be abolished. I believe it is a capital and as a result of his work Land Tax [3 :PECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2491 is inappropriate. If, in adverting for a variety of reasons, not the least to the problems to be faced by the of which is related to income tax, farming community, the Treasurer engage in primary production. Are had said that, as the first step in a they to be equated, in the thinking considered Government policy de of the Country Party and of members signed to meet and deal with those of this House, to the problems of the problems, he was going to abolish small farmer? Whether the Leader land tax, this would have been more of the Country Party likes it or not, commendable than the basis on which while members of his party propose the honorable gentleman presented to vote for the benefits conferred on this legislation to the House. all these groups, members of the I find it difficult to understand how Labor Party make no apology for members of the Country Party can asserting that they cannot support readily accept the definition involved a proposition which equates benefits in this Bill which fails to differentiate that ought to flow to primary pro effectively between different types ducers with those which will flow in of primary producers. I believe a equivalent measure to large com real case for the abolition of land tax panies many of which are registered can be made out. It is the view of in Canberra for the purpose of dodg the Labor Party that such a case can ing the incidence of income tax. be made in respect of small primary Indeed, many of them are foreign producers, not on the basis of the owned. difficulties they are experiencing be Mr. WHITING.-They need sorting cause of the drought, but because of out. the difficulties which all sections of Mr. HOLDING.-The honorable primary industry are facing at present member for Melbourne was con and undoubtedly will face in the cerned to sort this out and has drafted future. an amendment which he will fore In regard to the problems of the shadow in due course. I point out small primary producer, it would that presumably the honorable mem have been reasonable for the ber for Mildura, like other members Government to say that it was of the Country Party, is not con adopting the present policy as cerned to sort this out. The second the first step in a whole series of proposition that the Opposition can proposals designed to meet the diffi not support is this: At the same time culties faced by this section of the as this relief is being given, an ad community. Are we as a House ditional burden is to be imposed on simply to close our eyes to the facts other sections of the community. In and equate the legitimate problems other words, the Government is pro of the small farmer, whose sole posing to rob Peter to pay Paul. source of income is his own work on Mr. WHITING.-YOU should talk to his own property, with the problems the Treasurer about that. of the person who is described broadly as a Collins-street farmer Mr. HOLDING.-It is not a question and who is continually subjected to merely of talking to the Treasurer; attack by members of the Country it is a question for all member of Party? He is a man who is perhaps this House to consider. The honor engaged in a large business or pro able member for Melbourne has al fession and whose income is of such ready mentioned the irony of the magnitude that he sees farming not situation. In my view, if any as a source of income but as a source section of the community is de of relief from the burdens of income serving of relief, which should have been given relief in this measure, tax. it is the group of small manufacturers, The honorable member for Mel whose work is often done under very bourne mentioned a third class, difficult circumstances, in regional namely, the large companies which, areas. 2492 Land Tax [ASSEMBLY.] Bill. Mr. Moss.-You voted· against it The SPEAKER.-I think the hon last year. orable member is getting off the sub ject. Mr. HOLDING.-In this Bill, the Leader of the Country Party will be Mr. HOLDING.-Mr. Speaker, with voting in some cases to increase the respect to your ruling, with which I incidence of tax upon those very shall comply, I pOint out that, in people. That is the logic of the honor addition to conferring benefits, able member. the Bill also imposes burdens. Mr. Moss.-Why not be consistent? What will be the situation of a large I realize that it is impossible for you. butter or cheese factory in a country town as a consequence of the pro Mr. HOLDING.-The honorable posed amendments? In my view, it member was anxious to misrepresent is not beyond the bounds of prob the position of the honorable member ability that the 'Operator of that fac for Melbourne and of the Labor Party tory will find that incidence of land in this matter. However, he has over looked that he and his party are pre tax will be increased. An honorable pared to vote to increase the burden member has interjected to say that of land tax .on people who are very few will be affected, but, to working in decentralized industries adopt an interjection by the honor in country areas. The honorable able member for Broadmeadows, I member knows that many small believe that only one is too many. If manufacturers, and indeed many large a person is concerned to promote the manufacturers, operating in country growth of industry in rural areas, and towns will be affected. The Oppo to protect and assist industries which sition raised this point during the are already there, on what basis does discussions on drought relief. I do he vote to increase the incidence not remember receiving very much of land tax upon the owner of such an support from members of the Country Party. industry and, at the same time, to give total exemption to a company Mr. Moss.-Why did you not tell which is overseas 'Owned, registered ~s this twelve months ago? There in Canberra and operating a large IS no answer to that. farm in Victoria? These are some of the inherent contradictions which The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon members of the Opposition find in Christie).-Order! The Leader of the the proposed legislation. Country Party was heard in silence by the House, and I invite honorable In many respects the Bill is unsatis members to give the same respect to factory and so that there can be no the Leader of the Opposition. misrepresentation, innocent or other Mr. HOLDING.-When giving his wise, of the position of the Opposi reasons why the benefits of this Bill tion, I shall reiterate it. The Labor should flow to primary producers, Party believes it is a legitimate and the Premier and Treasurer did not proper object for any Government to come to grips with the real problems move towards the limitation of the faCing primary producers, and equally incidence of land tax in this State as a did not come to grips with the diffi move towards its abolition. Secondly, culties of those who are operating it believes the problems which are industries in major regional centres being faced by primary producers in and in country areas generally. Over this State at all levels create the need a long period, the Government has for direct and positive government failed to provide any real or mean action, in both State and Federal ingful assistance to promote decent spheres. The Opposition therefore ralization. welcomes this measure to the extent Land Tax [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2493 to which it relieves some of the bur instances, are trying to compete, dens now placed on primary pro under difficult and unfavourable ducers; and in referring to primary circumstances, with their city counter producers, the Opposition means, parts. We would find those two steps fundamentally, the primary producers much more attractive and worthy of whose income, livelihood and future support than the broad definition are inseparately bound up in the contained in this Bill which will give land. It does not include the Collins benefits to some who, in our view, street farmer who sees the farm ought not to receive them, and at the primarily as a method of reducing his same time impose burdens on other income tax while building a capital sections of the community. The accretion, and it does not include Opposition's view is that 'it is inequit corporations which are involved in able for sections of the community to primary producing activities which be asked to bear the additional are incidental to a multiplicity of fiscal burdens imposed by a Bill which is operations. Thirdly, the Opposition is designed to relieve another section of disappointed that, in considering the the community. We feel that this, in effects of the drought, the Govern principle, is an unacceptable practice. ment has given no real thought to resolving the problems faced by For those reasons, the honorable regionally based industry. member for Melbourne, who is handl ing this Bill on behalf of the Opposition, Mr. PHELAN .-Offer the House a will move an amendment which, if practical suggestion. accepted, will strengthen and improve this proposed legislation, because it Mr. HOLDING.-I assure the hon will give real benefits to the legitimate orable member for Kara Kara that primary producer. We relate our the honorable member for Melbourne position in this matter not to the has an immensely practical sugges question of drought but to theques tion to make. He will foreshadow an tion of problems confronting primary amendment that he will move later producers in Victoria. When the in an endeavour to come to grips with amendment is moved, the Opposition the problem. His amendment pro trusts that it will have the considera poses to exclude from the definition tion and support not only of the mem companies which are owned by other bers of the Country Party but of all companies. It would include, of honorable members. course, the family company which operates a farm unit. Honorable mem Mr. B. J. EVANS (Gippsland bers will be well aware of the situa East) .-The Leader of the Opposition tion in which a farmer has a number is to be congratulated on his speech. of sons and decides upon a company Members of the Country Party appre structure to ensure that ultimately ciate the difficult task that he has everyone will receive his fair share. been called upon to perform. As is There are real limitations on the typical in the situation in which he nature of any amendment which can found himself, the Leader of the be proposed in relation to a Bill of Opposition endeavoured to divert this kind, but that does not prevent attention from his colleague, the hon the Opposition from indicating to the orable member for Melbourne, by Government the sort of policy and engaging in an outrageous and com philosophy that the Labor Party be pletely unjustified attack on the hon lieves the Government should follow. orable member for Benalla. I venture Equally, Opposition members would to suggest that every member of this feel much happier if, when talking of House who knows the honorable the abolition of land tax, some member for Benalla at all would agree thought were given to regionally that he is incapable of the misrepre based industries which, in many sentation of which he was accused. Session 1968.-92. 2494 Land Tax [ASSEMBLY.]. Bill. The real basis and point of the To coin a word, the honorable Leader of the Opposition's speech member for Melbourne may be was that he had to take the heat off described as an " agriphobiac ", his colleague, the member handling because last year, when the Land Tax the Bill for the Opposition. This is in (Rates) Bill was being debated, I contrast to the speech of the Leader said- of the Country Party, who put the If the argument of the honorable member case clearly and concisely and did for Melbourne is of any substance, the hon not level any accusations of mis orable member should have moved an representation against the honor amendment to do away with the differentia tion between rural and urban land tax able member for Melbourne. He assessments. If the honorable member pointed out that when opportunities argues that land tax should be paid by were presented to the Opposition everybody, there is no substance in having to support an amendment which differing rates between the two areas. would have brought about assist The honorable member interjected- ance to rural industries-a matter I do not approve of any variation, although I am not speaking for my party adverted to by the Leader of when I say that. the Opposition, as the self-appointed The honorable member confessed to advocate for primary producers-it the House that he did not approve of did not take advantage of them. any variation between rural and urban The Opposition voted against the land tax. He made his attitude quite amendment which would have ex clear, and also emphasized that he was cluded all of the areas of this State at variance with other members of the outside the Port Phillip area as defined Labor Party in the matter. Today the under the Electoral Act. The Country Leader of the Opposition has had to Party believes that it was a sensible apologize for the honorable member for Melbourne and endeavour to " get proposition to advance at that time, him out from under" because his and one which would have met most viewpoint is so well and widely of the requirements laid down by the known. He is one of the few members Leader of the Opposition in the of the Labor Party prepared to come course of his remarks, because it did forward and say what he believes. not in fact propose to increase the The Labor Party desires to soft burden on the remaining section of soap country people into believing the people who have to pay the tax. that it is to that party that they must look for their salvation. I am afraid I repeat that it is the firm policy of that the Leader of the Opposition will the Country Party to act for the be disappointed in his attempt to take abolition of this tax, and I do not think the heat off his colleague, and that he it is reasonable to criticize it because is in error in his idea that country it is prepared to accept a step in this people will ever be deluded that it is direction. Members of our party are the Labor Party to whom they must hopeful that this is the first of several tum. steps; or, if possible, the first of only two steps. We appreciate the fact Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick that in an endeavour to meet the West) .-The first matter to which I financial requirements of the State the wish to refer is that part of the Bill Treasurer cannot abolish this tax out which refers to the exemption of of hand, in one fell swoop. It is pos small landowners. The emphasis is on sible that a series of steps will be the words " small landowners", who involved before our objective is are those who live within the metro achieved. politan area. Mr. B. J. Evans. Land Tax [3 DECEMB'ER,.1968.] , Bill. 2495: . If the history of this tax is traced thought that the whole or some of the. it will be seen that one of the greatest proposed benefits could be extended opponents of land tax in this Ho:use to persons associated with primary is the Premier and Treasurer. TIme production. and again over the . years. he has described land tax as an unjust tax. Mr. B. J. E'VANs.-That is what the· I do not know whether this Bill is an Country Party attempted to do last effort by the Treasurer gradually to year. abolish land tax, but if it is it would be more desirable for it to be applied Mr. TURNBULL.-I did not take' over-all. There are other forms of part in that debate, but I sugges~ that taxation such as a tax on advertising. what is good enough for the prImary. In this 'State more money is spent producer should be good enough for on advertising than on education. the secondary or tertiary producer in areas which have been adversely I have no criticism of the provision affected by the drought. which will exempt from the payment of land tax all land used for primary I now wish to discuss the small' production, but I have a suspicion land ower who elects you, Mr. that this provision resulted from Speaker, and other members of action taken by the Country Party in Parliament in the metropolitan area. another place in relation to another The proposed total exemption will form of taxation. No doubt members apply to persons in this category of the Country Party are elated at who own land which is valued at less this exemption, and I make no com than $6,000, and a lesser exemption ment on it other than to congratulate will apply to land valued at more them. One of the difficulties will be than $6,000 but less than $9,000. I to decide who is entitled to the pro ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether in posed exemption. Will it apply to Ivanhoe or West Brunswick there is every landowner, or will it apply only available a block of land which is to those landowners whose principal worth as little as $6,000, or indeed source of income is derived from $9,000. A residential block of land in primary production? Members of the most metropolitan suburbs could not Country Party are most interested in be obtained at this figure. Even the the latter group, and it is to protect these people that the Opposition pro conservative municipal valuations poses to move some amendments. are well above that amount. I now wish to discuss the hobby In New South Wales-the position farmers who are prevalent. This type there is due to exemptions made by of far~ is popular because it is a the Labor Party Government in that means of spending income on capital State before the Liberal Party Gov works in order to obtain taxation con ernment assumed office-the exemp cessions. One of the unfortunate tion applies to land not used for results of hobby farming is that the primary production to a value of value of land ·owned by persons $17,250, and to land use for primary interested in primary production is production to a value of $34,000. It increased. If the taxation concession is unjust that land tax should be im were taken away from the hobby posed on the working-man who farmer, much would be done to aid makes great sacrifices to buy a home. primary production. in which to accommodate himself The recent drought adversely and his family. Through circum affected farmers in rural areas, and stances over which he has no con-' also rural industries. I should have trol the land value rises to above 2496 Land Tax [ASSEMBLY.] Bill. $6,000 or $9,000 and he is obliged to always been sympathetic to the prob pay land tax irrespective of his in lems of the single lot owner, whom I come. I trust that some members like believe should not be expected to pay the honorable member for Essendon land tax. A single lot owner buys a will display a greater interest in this home and raises his family, and, in form of taxation with a view to bring some instances, tbe municipal valua ing the exemption somewhat closer to tion-which will now be the basis for that which applies in New South State land tax-has increased to Wales. such an astronomical extent that the single lot owner finds that he has to Mr. WHEELER (Essendon) .-It pay State land tax. I hope this situa has been interesting to hear members tion will be investigated, because I of the Labor Party and of the Country believe it is unfair for such people Party "getting stuck into each to have to pay this tax. other" during this debate. The problems of primary producers are The total amount derived from realized by all sections thr.oughout the land tax for the year 1967 was community and were mentioned by $20,585,226. In 1965, the minimum the Premier and Treasurer when he valuation .for exemption was in explained this Bill. The honorable creased to $6,000-which reduced gentleman's explanatory second the number of taxpayers to 89,000- reading speech acknowledges that and the total revenue amounted to farmers and primary producers have $18,686,484. It is evident that in the passed through a difficult period. The two-year period increased valuations Treasurer has done his utmost to resulted in an increase of $2,000,000 assist primary producers so far as the in revenue from State land tax. I do payment of land tax is concerned. not know what the increase will be The primary producer has fared very in the metropolitan area in the next well over the years because many two years, because in the past few primary producers have never paid weeks I have made some inquiries in land tax. Throughout the State there relation to municipal valuations and have been many anomalies in the have 'found that in some instances application of State land tax. For they have increased by 140 to 150 that reason, possibly more than any per cent. If this situation continues, other, the Premier and Treasurer practically every individual in the realized that, to overcome these metropolitan area will pay State land anomalies and inequalities, land tax tax unless the minimum valuation for on land used for primary production exemption is raised. I sound that should be abolished. warning because I believe the Govern It is all very well to assert that land ment must be realistic in regard to tax and other taxes should be exemptions from land tax; otherwise, abolished, but it must be remembered every landowner will have to pay that if one tax is removed another land tax, and in my view this will be means of raising revenue must be unjust. found. Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows). The honorable member for Essendon Mr. GINIFER.-What is your went a long way towards supporting answer? the honorable member for Brunswick Mr. WHEELER.-I have not an West when he raised the question of answer, and no other member is game the individual lot owner who may be enough to make a suggestion. I have affected by this measure as a result Land Tax [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2497 of increased municipal valuations. So Simply by purchasing a few head of far as the comments of the Deputy sheep or cattle and running them on Leader of the Country Party are the rural land, they will get complete concerned, it is evident that members exemption from land tax, because the of the Country Party are engaging in land is being used for primary pro their usual political gymnastics in a ducing purposes. That is wrong. desperate attempt to grab whatever political capital they can from this The points made by the honorable situation to bolster up their sinking member for Essendon are valid be cause land tax is becoming a serious stocks. The honorable member for problem in the metropolitan area as Melbourne and the Leader of the a result of increased land values. Opposition clearly stated the Opposi The honorable member for Bruns tion's case in relation to this Bill. As wick West has pointed out that city the Leader of the Opposition pointed land values are reaching astronomical out, the granting of a complete heights, and many landowners who exemption in regard to all land used should not be required to do so will for primary production will open the have to pay land tax. The difference way for speCUlators to engage in their between the large primary producer usual tactics. or the pastoral company and the Mr. B. J. EVANs.-What about your person who owns a block of land on farm? which he has built a house is that one derives an income from his land and Mr. WILTON.-I do not mind ad the other does not. It was never mitting that I own a small parcel of intended that the people who do not rural land. If I am " caught" for land derive income from their land should tax I shall be happy to pay it. My pay land tax. philosophy is that when a person has to pay tax he should go down on his In view of what has been said knees and thank the Lord that he is tonight by the honorable members in a position to do so; he must be for Melbourne and Essendon and the earning an income if he is obliged to Leader of the Opposition, the Government should withdraw the Bill pay tax. and re-examine it. It should con The Leader of the Opposition sider the points raised by honorable pointed out that this Bill grants a members during this debate. If it complete exemption from the pay were to do this, it would be in a posi ment of land tax on land used for tion to introduce legislation which primary production and that this will would achieve what honorable pave the way for land speculators to members desire. As the Leader indulge in the practices which they of the Opposition pointed out, have followed in many outer metro many rural industries will be politan areas. Land speculators and adversely affected by the provisions persons holding large tracts of rural of this Bill, which does two things. land for developmental purposes First, it relieves primary producers make full use of the section of the from the burden or land tax and, secondly, it loads another section of Local Government Act which pro the community with that burden. vides that farm rates may be struck by municipalities. The same position The honorable member for Mel will apply in this instance to rural bourne stated that $2,000,000 was land which is owned by speculators received from primary producers in or industrial organizations who are land tax last year. When the in the process of developing the Treasurer first referred to this land for industrial purposes. exemption in his Budget speech he 2498 Land Tax [ASSEMBLY.] .. ,. BilL. indicated that an exemption totalling exemptions because they are· operat.;. $2,000,000 .; would. be granted: to ing in country' areas, frequently primary producers but that this under great difficulties, arid employ amount would be recouped by increas ing people, thereby assisting decen· ing the land tax paid by other sections tralization. of the community. This is an injustice, and if the Government has The Leader of the ·Opposition re ... a desire to assist the genuine primary ferred to me when he was speaking·. producer there is a better way of If 1 have done anything· to upset him achieving this than is set out in the it would be nothing more than to tell Bill. Therefore, the Government my political opponent at one time should withdraw the measure' and when he said that he stood for give consideration to the points made socialism that 1 did not appreciate by honorable members during the his point of view and therefore ' I debate. could not support his idea. Although 1 am an anti-socialist, 1 believe land Mr. TREWIN (Benalla).-It is tax should not be imposed on any good to see the interest taken in this land in Victoria. Bill, upon which several honorable members have expressed their views. Whilst the Bill goes a certain· dis I· have my own views about land tax tance towards satisfying members of and the Bill before the House, and I the Country Party, it does not go. far appreciate the manner in which the enough. I live in a shire which was exemption has been introduced this not declared a drought area' and year. The Country Party accepts the therefore the implications of the proposal to exempt land used for relief to be granted by this Bill, primary production from land tax although it applies to the whole of and as a primary producer I accept the State, do not reflect quite so this relief which is to be afforded to deeply in the area that 1 represent: primary producers. However, primary producers general..;, ly are grateful for the relief to During the debate on a similar Bill be given to them, but this should last year, members of the Country Party sought further exemptions than be only the start and relief should be were then proposed. We still believe given to every landholder in this State. that no land in Victoria should be subject to this tax. A person who The motion was agreed to. owns a block of land or a farm has The Bill was read a second time been able to acquire it only because and committed, pro forma. he has worked and saved. He has already paid taxation on the money The House went into Committee of that he has earned and saved, Ways and Means. irrespective of his occupation. If he earns money from his land he has to Mr. MANSON (Minister of State pay taxation on his earnings. As well Development) .-1 move- as paying the normal taxation he has That subject to the Land Tax Act 1958 as proposed to be amended by the Land Tax to pay municipal rates and other Bill there shall in the case of each owner levies. Land tax is an iniquitous of land be charged levied collected and paid form of taxation. for the use of Her Majesty in aid of the Consolidated Revenue for the year com It has been said that country mencing on the 1st day of January, 1969, industries will be carrying a greater and ending on the 31st day of December, 1969, the duty of land tax upon land as pro burden of land tax than they should vided in the table appended hereto: be. In many cases this will be so, and 1 would have been happier if Provided that the minimum amount of. tax payable for the said year by any taxpayer the Government had included land assessed under the Land Tax Act 1958 as so owned by. country industries in the proposed to be amended shall be $1. . Land Tax [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2499 TABLE. Where the Amount ofthc Taxable Value of Land or Lands as Assessed under the Land Tax Act 1958 :- The Duty of Land Tax Shall Be :- Does not exceed $17,500 0·42 cents for each $1 of the tacable value Exceeds $17,500 but does not exceed $20,000 .. $73·50 plus O' 62 cents for each $1 of the taxable value in excess of $17,500 Exceeds $20,000 but does not exceed $25,000 .. $89· 00 plus o· 83 cents for each $1 of the taxable value in excess of $20,000 Exceeds $25,000 but does not exceed $30,000 .. $130·50 plus 1· 05 cents for each $1 ofthe taxable value in excess of $25,000 Exceeds $30,000 but does not exceed $40,000 .. $183.00 plus 1·10 cents for each $1 of the taxable value in excess of $30,000 Exceeds $40,000 but does not excee~ $50,000 .. $293.00 plus 1·14 cents for each $1 of the taxable value in excess of $40,000 Exceeds $50,000 but does not exceed $60,000 .. $407.00 plus 1 . 38 cents for each $1 of the taxable value in excess of $50,000 Exceeds $60,000 but does not exceed $70,000 .. $545.00 plus 1 . 60 cents for each $1 of the taxable value in excess of $60,000 Exceeds $70,000 but does not exceed $80,000 .. $705.00 plus 1 . 72 cents for each $1 of the taxable value in excess of $70,000 Exceeds $80,000 but does .lot exceed $90,000 .. $877 . 00 plus 1 . 83 cents for each $1 of the taxable value in excess of $80,000 Exceeds $90,000 but does not exceed $100,000 .. $1,060.00 plus 2·06 cents for each $1 of the taxable value in excess of $90,000 Exceeds $100,000 but does not exceed $110,000 .. $1,266.00 plus 2·18 cents for each $1 of the taxable value in excess of $100,000 Exceeds $110,000 but does not exceed $120,000 .. $1,484.00 plus 2'29 cents for each $1 of the taxable value in excess of $110,000 Exceeds $120,000 but does not exceed $130,000 .. $1,713.00 plus 2·52 cents for each $1 of the taxable value in excess of $120,000 Exceeds $130,000 but does not exceed $140,000 .. $1,965.00 plus 2·75 cents for each $1 of the taxable value in excess of $130,000 Exceeds $140,000 but does not exceed $150,000 .. $2,240.00 plus 2· 86 cents for each $1 of the taxable value in exceeS of $140,000 Exceeds $150,000 but does not exceed $160,000 .. $2,526.00 plus 2· 98 cents for each $1 of the taxable value in excess of $150,000 Exceeds $160,000 but does not exceed $170,000 .. $2,824.00 plus 3· 09 cents for each $1 of the taxable value in excess of $160,000 Exceeds $170,000 $3,133.00 plus 3· 21 cents for each $1 of h taxable value in excess of $170,000 Where the owner of land not being land (b) If at least three-fifths of the entire used for industrial purposes is an absentee beneficial interest in any land is the duty of land tax provided in the fore owned by absentees or if (where going provisions of the table shall be the land is owned by a body increased by twenty per centum and for corporate) at least three-fifths of purpose of this table- the issued share capital of that body corporate is held by (a) .. Absentee" means a person who absentees, that land shall be does not reside in Australia and in deemed to be wholly owned by cludes a person who has been absentees. absent from Australia for at least The motion was agreed to, and the twelve months immediately prior to resolution was reported to the House the time when the ownership of his land for the purposes of the and adopted. Principal Act is determined unless The House went into Committee he satisfied the Commissioner that he resides in Australia, but does for the consideration of this Bill. not include a public officer of the Clause 1 was agreed to. Commonwealth or the State who is absent in the performance of his The sitting was suspended at 6.29 duties; p.m. until 8.5 p.m. 2500 Land Tax [ASSEMBLY.] Bill. Clause 2, providing, inter alia the charge. Land tax is required to The Principal Act is hereby amended as be declared annually by legislation follows :- and is not continuing in effect. The (Ql) In section 3- purpose of the present Land Tax Bill is to declare the rates of land tax (f) At the end of section 9 there shall be for the year ending December, 1969, inserted the following sub-section:- and at the same time to amend the "(5) Land or lands used for primary Land Tax Act including, inter alia, the production. " exemptions in the principal Act. Mr. CLAREY (Melboume).-I should like to make some general Until this Bill becomes law, no rates observations on this clause. First, I of land tax will be declared for the foreshadow an amendment which I year 1969. At the same instant in shall move later. Copies of the time as the Bill declares the rates, amendment have already been circu it also. amends the exemptions. The lated to honorable members. During amendments to the exemptions are my second-reading speech, I indicated not amendments to an existing charge that the Opposition felt that new sub but will affect the charge proposed section (5) of section 9, as contained to be imposed by the Bill itself. May's in paragraph (f) of clause 2, which Parliamentary Practice states that proposed to exempt from land . . . if an amendment is offered it is compared with the terms of the re;olution tax land or lands used for primary proposed from the chair and is ruled out production, was altogether too sweep of order if it in any way increases the ing. Irrespective of the ownership of amount or extends the area of incidence the land--it could be 'Owned by a of the charge defined in those terms. wealthy company or a company . . . the royal initiative in taxation implies formed in Canberra which desired to the exclusive right to define the incidence as well as the amount of burdens to be avoid taxation-the land w'Ould be placed upon the people, and that an amend covered by this exemption. ment which transfers a burden to tax I shall not traverse the whole payers not previously liable is an infrinoe- ment of this initiative. t:> subject-matter of the Bill at this stage, because any points that I may The resolution of the Committee of have omitted during the second Ways and Means relating to the Bill reading stage have been adequately determines the rates of land tax. It supplemented by my Leader. The does n'Ot refer to the exemptions pro purpose of my amendment is t'O posed. It is obvious, therefore, that ensure that the prop'Osed exemption the proposed amendment is not in of primary production land shall be conflict with the resolution of the confined to legitimate individuals who Committee of Ways and Means. It own farms, reside on them and work does, however, affect the incidence o.f them. My amendment envisages the tax by extending it to persons who addition of the following words to would, under the terms of the Bill, proposed new sub-section (5) :- be exempt, and is therefore out of which is or are owned and occupied by order. a natural person or by a corporation which Mr. CLAREY.-Mr. Chairman, you is. a I?roprietary company incorporated in Vlctorla and all the members of which are have given what I think honorable natural persons. members would regard as a rather The CHAIRMAN (Mr. L. S. Reid). involved and intricate ruling. It I wish to bring to the notice of the would be difficult for any honorable Committee that the honorable mem member to raise a point of order or ber for Melbourne proposes to amend the Bill by limiting the scope 'Of the debate it because it seems to involve taxing exemption in paragraph (f) of so many points. No one is presently clause 2. The effect of the amendment liable, and the actual imposition of would be to increase the incidence of the charge-- Land Tax [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2501 The CHAIRMAN.-The honorable Mr. FENNESSY.-On a point of member for Melbourne should not order, Mr. Chairman, I do not believe debate my ruling, but I am prepared that the amendment proposed by the to hear him by way of explanation if honorable member for Melbourne there is any point which he wants would transfer the burden of taxation clarified. to another section of the community. Mr. CLAREY.-Opposition mem The CHAIRMAN .-As I stated in bers considered that as the rate of my explanation, the amendment land tax -is not actually dealt with would affect the incidence of tax by until the Committee debates clause extending it to' persons who, under 8, which sets out the new table of the terms of this Bill, would be rates, my amendment would be quite exempt. It is therefore out of order. in order. I am putting it forward to make the Opposition's attitude per Mr. WHEELER (Essendon).-I seek fectly clear. It is disappointing to feel clarification of one aspect, Mr. Chair that, in discussing legislation of this man. Clause 8 of the Bill contains character. honorable members who a table setting out the rates of land wish to do so cannot express their tax. Does your ruling mean that when opinions concerning a proposal simply clause 8 is under consideration, it because the Government has framed cannot be debated by honorable the legislation in such a way that it members? would appear to be impossible to The CHAIRMAN.-Tbe honorable amend it. member for Essendon is now referring Mr. FENNESSY (Brunswick to rates of land tax. The amendment East).-I think you, Mr. Chairman, proposed by the honorable member for Melbourne deals with exemptions would agree that your ruling, with from land tax. The two matters are which the Opposition does not dis entirely different. agree, is very involved. Even mem bers of the Country p.arty would Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne).-I agree that they do not understand it wish to speak concerning several properly. portions of clause 2, which covers a multitude of sins. When the The CHAIRMAN .-In order to Bill was explained, I asked for clarify my ruling for the benefit of the an adjournment of a fortnight, Committee, I shall again quote from but the Treasurer stated that 'it was May the relevant passage which urgent. It was agreed to resume the makes it quite clear. debate last Thursday. However, the Mr. FENNESSY.-Mr. Chairman, Treasurer, who was in the House this you did not allow me to complete my afternoon, is not now present to' take remarks. charge of his own Bill, which was The CHAIRMAN.-I know the part and parcel of his Budget. He point which the honorable member has left in charge of the measure ·a for Brunswick 'East intends to raise, Minister who obviously knows namely, that the Committee does not nothing about it. I am certain that understand my ruling. In order to clarify the position for the benefit of if the Minister of T~ansport was the Committee, I shall again quote acquainted with the contents of the this passage from May- Bill, he would have spoken to clause . . . the royal initiative in taxation implies 2, which relates to interpretations the exclusive right to define the incidence as well as the amount of burdens to be consequential on subsequent amend placed upon the people, and that an amend ments that future valuations will be ment which transfers a burden to taxpayers not previously liable is an infringement of done by municipalities and not by the this initiative. Commissioner of Land Tax. 2502 Land. Tax [ASSEMBLY.] '·:Bili . ... Paragraph (e) substitutes new sub (2) In this section the' term" minerals" means all minerals. metals coal or precious section (7) ·and is linked 'with the stones existing on or beneath the surface basic principle of the Bill. The' side of the land. note to sub-section (1) of section 7 Again, no explat:lation was offered of of the principal Act states- this matter. Does' it mean that, for Exemption from land tax in case of land land tax purposes, -in future the used for primary production. unimproved value of the land will Sub-section (1) states, inter alia- take into account the value . o~ . . . no land tax shall be charged to the minerals on the land? owner thereof in respect of such land or lands unless the unimproved value of such The clause was agreed to. land or lands exceeds $10,000. Clause 4' (Corporations having That is now being amended by new substantial identity of shareholders section 7 providing for only one type to be deemed one corporation). of charge-for land used for other Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne).-The than primary production. Proposed Treasurer should have more new section 7 states, inter alia- adequately explained the provisions No land tax shall be charged to the of this clause. I agree with most of owner of land or lands unless the unimprov these provisions, which tighten up the ed value of all land or lands owned by such definitions relating to corporations owner exceeds $6,000. deemed to be related to each 'Other The Labor Party has always for purposes of the Companies Act. advocated, sometimes successfully, Proposed new sub-section (1) of that the exemption should be lifted. section 44 of the principal Act pro I wonder whether the honorable mem vides- ber for Essendon would be in order Any two or more corporations which con in moving an amendment to extend. sist substantially of the same shareholders may, if the Commissioner thinks fit, be the exempti'On to the sum concerning deemed to be a single company for the land used for primary production, purposes of this Act. namely, $10,000, ,and disappearing at In his second-reading speech, the $20,000? If he really believes what he Treasurer did n'Ot refer to the word advocates-I am certain that he does " may". He said it was going to be because he backed up the honorable done. Therefore, why is the word member for Brunswick West-he " shall" not used? The Companies should move an amendment to that Act uses the expression "shall be effect, so that it would not impose deemed ". I do not suppose I will get but would lift a burden. an answer. The clause was agreed to. Sub-clause (2) 'Of this clause pro vides that section 45 of the principal Clause 3 (Amendrp,ent 'Of No. 6289). Act is to' be amended, and paragraph Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne).-This (a) provides- clause provides a number of amend In sub-section (2) and sub-section (7) for the word "exemptions" there shall be ments consequential upon the trans substituted the words "the exemption". ferring of assessments to munici Section 45 of the principal Act palities. The Treasurer did not contains only three sub-sections .. explain this clause as minutely ·as one Apparently the Treasurer does not wO'uldexpect in relation to financial read the Bills he presents to the Com measures. Paragraph (f) provides mittee. Therefore, I move- that section 40 of the principal Act That, in paragraph (a) of sub-clause (2), shall be repealed. This section pro the figure" 7" be omitted with the view of vides- inserting the figure "3". (1) No tax shall be assessed or payable Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Trans in respect of the value of any minerals and port).-I thank the honorable member for the purpose of any such tax the value of minerals shall not be taken into account for Melb'Ourne for directing the in estimating the value 'of the land. attention of the Committee to the ,\ 1i' . '. . .. Land Tax·", .. [3 DECEMBER, .1968.] ',' ...... :1Jill. i'- .... · ~:. 2503: elTOI:~; which appears in the drafting given earlier from the Chair, it is not or the printing of the Bill. It is clear possible to amend the table,' and as that. section 45 of the principal Act we oppose in principle the increase, does not contain a sub-section (7). we therefore have no option but to Sub.,sections (2) and (3) contain the vote against the clause. Certain plural word "exemptions". If the members of the Country Party have purpose of the Bill is to change the expressed displeasure about the in plural word "exemptions" to the crease, "as has the honorable member singular word " exemption", it should for Essendon. be done as the honorable member for Mr. WHEELER.-l did not mention Melbourne suggests. I agree to his " 10 per cent." amendment. Mr. CL.t\REY.-The honorable The amendment was agreed to, and member for Essendon appeared to the clause, as amended, was adopted, think that land tax was too high, and as were clauses 5 and 6. I thought he would be opposed to the Clause 7, relating to definition of 10 per cent. increase. As I said, the necessitous circumstances. Opposition has no option but to vote against the clause with the view of Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne).-The deleting the table. If the clause is Labor Party thoroughly agrees with negatived, the Government will be the new definition of "necessitous required to bring in an amended circumstances". Section 91A of the table, or one equivalent to that which principal Act concerns the release or is at .present in the Act. postponement of land tax to tax The Committee divided on the payers in necessitous circumstances clause (Mr. L. S. Reid in the chair)- and it provides that the Commissioner may release the taxpayer from pay Ayes 53 ment of the whole or any part of the Noes 16 tax payable. "Necessitous circum stances" is now to be more widely Majority for the defined. No doubt honorable mem clause 37 bers have received from their AYES. constituents requests for deferment Mr. Balfour Mr. Moss of payment of Melbourne and Mr. Billing Mr. Phelan Mr. Birrell Mr. Porter Metropolitan Board of Works rates. Sir Henry Bolte Mr. Rafferty The Board of Works grants relief in Mr. Borthwick Mr. Reese necessitous circumstances as defined Mr. Broad Mr. Reid in the Land Tax Act. If an honorable Mr. Buckley (Box Hill) Mr. Cochrane Mr. Rossiter member receives a query from a con Mr. Darcy Sir Arthur Rylah stituent as a result of the enactment Mr. Dixon Mr. Scanlan of this Bill, he will find that the Mr. Doyle Mr. Smith interpretation has been extended to Mr. Dunstan (Bellarine) Mr. Evans Mr. Smith mean a pensioner on the maximum (Ballaarat North) ( Warmambool) rate, and in the case of 'a repatriation Mr. Evans Mr. Stephen pensioner if his total income does (Gippsland East) Mr. Stokes not exceed $500 per annum. Mrs. Goble Mr. Suggett Mr. Hayes Mr. Tanner The clause was agreed to. Sir Herbert Hyland Sir Edgar Tannp.r Mr. Jona Mr. Taylor Clause 8, providing for the rate of Mr. Loxton Mr. Trethewey land tax for 1969. Mr. MacDonald Mr. Trewin (Glen Iris) Mr. Vale Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne).-I shall Mr. McDonald Mr. Wheeler not cover the ground again. I have (Rodney) Mr. Whiting indicated that the Opposition is Sir William McDonald Mr. Wilcox opposed to the proposed increase of Mr. McKellar Mr. Wiltshire. Mr. McLaren 10 per cent. in the rate of land tax Mr. Manson Tellers: for all . land exceeding $25,000 in Mr.. Meagher ... Mr. Ross-Edwards value. In accordance with a ruling' Mr. Mitchell Mr. Templeton; 2504 [ASSEMBLY.] Superannuation' Fund Bil/; NOES. This is borne out by figures which Mr. Clarey Mr. Stoneham appeared in the last report of the Mr. Divers Mr. Sutton Mr. Fennessy Mr. Turnbull State Superannuation Board, which Mr. Floyd Mr. Wilkes stated, inter alia- Mr. Ginifer Mr. Wilton. Under the provisions of Part III. of the Mr. Holding Teaching Service Act 1958 the Board is Mr. Lovegrove Tellers: charged with the management of the Married Mr. Mutton Mr. Edmunds Women Teachers' Pension F:und. Mr. Ring Mr. Trezise. Contributions to the Fund commenced in July, 1957, and at the end of each financial PAIR. year the Government is required to pay into Sir John Bloomfield I Dr. Jenkins. the Fund from Consolidated Revenue an amount equivalent to the total amount of The Bill was reported to the the officers' contributions received during the year. Details of the transactions in the House with an amendment, and Fund are shown in Table I. passed through its remaining stages. I shall quote those figures which, POULTRY PROCESSING BILL. although not extensive, are illumina ting. The report continues- This Bill was received from the Moneys in the Fund are invested in the Council and, on the motion of Sir same type of security in which the Super WILLIAM McDONALD (Minister of annuation Fund is invested and the invest Lands), was read a first time. ment securities held at 30th June, 1965, are shown in Table J. At that date there were 214 contributors to the Fund and 11 MARRIED WOMEN'S pensions had been granted. SUPERANNUATION FUND BILL. At the time of the report the scheme The debate (adjourned from had been in operation for eight years. November 21) on the motion of Sir In passing, I point out that the last Henry Bolte (Premier and Treasurer) report of the State Superannuation for the second reading of this Bill was Board presented to this House is for resumed. the year ended 30th June, 1965. In Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne).-This is other words, the Board is three years a Bill to wind up what is known as behind in its reports, yet the Govern the Married Women Teachers' Pen ment can introduce measures dealing sion Fund. In his second-reading with financial matters affecting the speech on the 21 st November, the Board. It is clear that the fund is Premier and Treasurer explained the in a good financial position. At page Bill adequately, at least in broad 11 of the Board's report appears a outline. To' put the matter in proper statement of receipts and payments perspective, I quote the honorable for the year ended 30th June, 1965, gentleman's opening remarks- and another statement covering the This Bill relates to a matter on which whole period of the fund's existance. the unions concerned, the Government For the year ended 30th June, 1965, Actuary and other persons have endeavoured the total amount paid out in pen to find a satisfactory answer to an almost intolerable situation. To prove that point, sions was $979, while the sum of at present married women teachers are $1,824 was paid out in lump sum entitled to contribute to the Married payments. An interesting point is that Women Teachers' Pension Fund at the rate the assets of the fund at the end of of 5 per cent. of salary, and the State contributes annually a similar amount. June, 1965·, consisted of $534,100 worth of investments. Although the When a married teacher retires or fund is in a healthy position, ceases employment for other reason, apparently the scheme has not been she is entitled to a pension. very attractive. Apparently the scheme has not been very attractive, because the Treasurer Briefly, the purpose of the Bill is went on to say- to wind up the existing fund and to To indicate how ineffective this scheme open a new fund called the Married has been, only 5 per cent. of those eligible Women's Superannuation Fund, into have contributed. which will be transferred all the Married Women's [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Superannuation Fund Bill. 2505 money that is at present in the current The Bill contains a number of other fund. Persons whO' are receiving a provisions, one or two of which I pension under the present scheme shall advert to at the Committee I do not know how many of them stage. In the main, the new scheme there are-will be entitled to continue wi11 be a definite improvement on the to receive the pension if they wish old one, and I think it will be much to do so. Contributors to the more attractive to married women. present fund will be transferred Sir HENRY BOLTE.-It will still not into the new scheme. The mem be compulsory. ber's contribution will remain at 5 per cent. of her salary, and the Mr. CLAREY.-I think I indicated Government will add one and a half that earlier. The scheme is not com times that amount. When a married pulsory, but from discussions I have woman reaches the retiring age, had with several teachers I am of the or is obliged to cease work for opinion that the new scheme will be other reasons, she will receive a more attractive. I am sure a much lump sum payment. There will be a greater percentage of married women separate account for each individ will contribute to the new fund. I ual contributor, which will be shall discuss one or two features of credited with payments into the the provisions in Committee. fund and her share of the interest Mr. PHELAN (Kara Kara).-The earned by investment of the fund. As Country Party supports this measure, an illustration, if there is an amount which is designed to improve the of $1,000 standing to the credit of conditions under which married a contributor on her retirement, the women may contribute for super Government will add another $1,500, annuation. It is proposed to transfer so that she will receive a lump sum the money from the existing fund payment of $2,500. If the contributor into a new Married Women's Super does not want to draw a lump sum annuation Fund and to increase the probably this will happen only in a Government's contribution to the minority of cases-she may receive fund from 5 percent. to 7! per cent. an annuity. The Country Party considers the Bill to be desirable and commends the Sir HENRY BOL TE.-The principal Government for its introduC'tion. Not attraction is that her service can be O'nly will the measure provide that broken and she will not lose her contributors to the new scheme may entitlement. elect to take either a lump sum pay ment or an annuity on their retirement, Mr. CLAREY.-I was coming to but also if for unforeseen circum that point. The Bill contains certain stances-such as the natural hazards lenient or elastic provisions whereby, of married life-a contributor leaves the service for a period, the contri if a married woman temporarily butions will be suspended without leaves the service to have an addition penalty and can be resumed when the to the family or on account of HI person concerned returns to work. health or because of other circum There will be no liability for back stances, she will not be obliged to payments, as is the case with most continue to contribute to the fund superannuation schemes. until she returns ,to work. For My colleagues and I believe these example, if a 'contributor is off are desirable provisions. Contributors duty for six months, when she will receive a guaranteed return on resumes work she will not be up for their contributions plus a Government the payment of six months' arrears. contribution of I! times their own Dn the other hand, if she wishes to contribution. The Bill has been continue payments whilst she is designed to overcome certain prob absent from work I think that is lems, and I believe it will offer justice permiSSible. and encouragement for married 2506. ·[ASSEMBLY.] Superannuation Fund:.Bil~. women to contribute to the new Apparently a female contributor to the optional scheme. I have every confi existing superannuation fund who be dence in commending the Bill, which ·comes married drops out of it and should overcome problems existing receives a refund of her contribu ... in the particular sphere of employ tions, but she can enter the new ment in the service with which it is fund. I want to make it clear to concerned. honorable members tha t the new The motion was agreed to. fund is not limited to married woman The Bill was read a second time and teachers but applies to married committed, pro forma. women throughout the service. Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and The clause was agreed to, as were Treasurer) presented a message from clauses 7 to 11. His Excellency the Governor recom Clause 12 (Annuity Account). mending that an appropriation be made from the Consolidated Revenue Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne).-There for the purposes of this Bill. is a technical point that 1 should A resolution in accordance with the like the Treasurer to clarify. Sub recommendation was passed in Com-: clause (1) of clause 12 provides- mittee and adopted by the House. The Board shall from time to time when it thinks fit credit to the ordinary account The House went into Committee and the special account (if any) of each for the consideration of this Bill. contributor and to the Annuity Account an amount in respect of interest. Clauses 1 to 5 were agreed to. Can the Treasurer indicate why the Clause 6 (Contributors). words" when it thinks fit " are used Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne).-I do in that sub-clause rather than a pro not think I made it clear in my vision for a specified regular period, second-reading speech that the new such as quarterly, half-yearly or Married Women's Superannuation yearly? My reading of the proposed Fund will include all married teachers legislation is that, if 1 am a contri who are contributors to the existing butor, 1 pay in certain amounts and fund. The Married Women Teachers' 1 receive my share of the interest Pension Fund will disappear and all which is earned. What is the posi of its assets will be transferred to tion if my share of the interest has the new fund. This fund will also not been added when 1 retire? 1 cater for married women in other appreciate, of course, that if the branches of the service; in other Board added interest only once a words, a married woman, who is not year, for example, and 1 retired half a teacher, but who is employed else way through the year, 1 could lose where in the Public Service, will the benefit of the interest payment. automatically be included in this Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and fund. Sub-clauses (1) and (2) of Treasurer) .-1 think the honorable the clause provide- member has answered his own (1) Any person who was a contributor question. If a regular period were to the Married· Women Teachers' Pension Fund established under the Teaching Service specified, 1 think that precisely what Act 1958 immediately prior to the commence he is worried about could happen. ment of this Act shall become and be a contributor to the Fund. Employment of the words "when it (2) Any woman who is an officer within thinks fit" enables the individual ac the meaning of the Superannuation Act 1958 counts of every contributor to be but to whom that Act does not apply and who does not become a contributor to the adjusted. If adjustments were made Fund pursuant to sub-section (1) may elect periodically, a contributor could to be a contributor to the Fund and every woman who so elects shall become and be "miss out" on some interest. The a contributor. provision simply means that -if an: Married Women's [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Superannuation Fund Bill. 2507 annuity or any other form of benefit examinations were to be insisted is being determined at a particular upon in every case, I am certain that time, the interest can be credited at there would be a number who would that time. not be able to receive the full benefit. The clause was agreed to. That is a provision which should at tract many to the fund. Clause 13 (As to benefits on retirement) . The clause was agreed to, as were clauses 15 and 16. Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne).-I ask the Treasurer to indicate what is Clause 17 (Actuarial investigation meant by paragraph (b) of sub of fund). clause (6) of this clause, which pro Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne).-Sub vides- clause (1) provides- where the contributor has agreed to An investigation as to the state and accept an annuity payable on more than sufficiency of the Annuity Account shall be one life that the annuity shall be payable made at the expiration of the financial year at different rates during the period of the ending on the 30th day of June, 1973 and annuity. thereafter as at the expiration of each period of five years. I thought that a contributor could accept only an annuity payable on I ask why the period of five years his own life. has been chosen. Honorable members will recall that the actuarial investiga Sir HENRY BOLTE (premier and tion of the State Superannuation Fund Treasurer) .-This is rather com used to be made every five years, but plicated. From an examination of that was altered to every three years. the various provisions in sub-clauses That is a passing query. (2) to (6) honorable members will Sub-clause (2) provides that the find that there are a number of dif- investigation shall be made by an ferent ways in which a contributor actuary appointed by the Board, and may determine how she will take an sub-clause (3) provides that the annuity. She can have an annuity actuary shall report to the Board the paid during the whole of her life; result of his investigations. I suggest she can have an annuity for a term that words might be added to provide certain, which is for a given period ; that a copy of the actuary's report or she may take an annuity payable shall be presented to Parliament. This until the death of the survivor or her is desirable when any reports of this self, her children or her spouse. That nature are made. A few years ago, is an annuity which is not only on the Government accepted a similar her own life but is also on the life suggestion by me in regard to the. of a spouse or child. She will receive annual report-it was not an actuarial a lower annuity, of course. The sub report-of the Exhibition Trustees. In clauses referred to relate to elections this case, the Act governing the State that a contributor may make. Superannuation Fund provides for an The clause was agreed to. actuarial investigation, and the copy Clause 14 (Benefits on retirement of the actuary's reports are presented because of ill-health). to Parliament. I have the last report for the Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne).-This provision is of considerable benefit year ended 1965. I found that there to those who are not in the fund but was a similar provision-except for desire to enter it. It provides that one qualification-in respect of the if a person elects to be a contributor Married Women Teachers' Fund, that within six months of the commence there should be an actuarial investi· ment of the operation of the Act she gation. However, on inquiry at the: will not be required to submit to any Papers Room and elsewhere, I found medical examination. If medical that ·no copies of the report have been 2508 Married Women's [ASSEMBL Y.] Superannuation Fund Bill. received because the Act simply the honorable member, and I will states that a report shall be made to guarantee that, if it is believed neces the Board. As a result, the reports are sary a report will be presented to not presented to IParliam ent. I see Parliament in due course. no reason why the reports should not The clause was agreed to, as were be presented to Parliament so that clauses 18 and 19. they would be available for reference without honorable members having to Clause 20 (As to assignment of ask that they be laid on the table benefits &c.) of the Library. Perhaps the words I Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne).-Sub have suggested could be added when clause (2) provides- the Bill is dealt with in another place. Notwithstanding anything in sub-section ( 1) in the case of the death of a pensioner Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and or contributor to whom or in respect of Treasurer).-Although I usually agree whom any money not exceeding $400 is with the honorable member for Mel payable under this Act the Board may pay bourne, I am not sure that the such money to such person as in the cir suggested amendment is necessary. cumstances the Board thinks fit. A quinquennial investigation used to I ask the Treasurer to amplify this be made of the State Superannuation provision, which I presume relates to Fund, and it is now proposed that a payment which may be made to an investigation at a similar interval cover funeral expenses, and so on. should be made of the Married Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Women's Superannuation Fund. The Treasurer).-I should not care to give reas'On why the period should be five a definite answer, but I think it is years in relation to this fund is that to meet immediate expenses where it will be a much smaller fund than there is little or no doubt about the State Superannuation Fund. I entitlement. If that is not so, I will accept the honorable member's ask the actuary to supply the honor support and advice, but the reason able member with information. for the change from five to three years The clause was agreed to, as were in regard to the State Superannuation the remaining clauses. Fund was because of changed circum stances of investments which today The Bill was reported to the House without amendment, and passed are of long term and at a higher rate through its remaining stages. of interest. The actual fund can change materially in three years. VALUATION OF LAND The honorable member for Mel (AMENDMENT) BILL. bourne will recall that previously This Bill was received from the most investments were in long-term Council and, on the motion of Sir Government bonds at 3k per cent., WILLIAM McDONALD (Minister of and they were invested for decades. Lands), was read a first time. Today, the investment policy of the State Superannuation Board is such CHIROPODISTS BILL. that each year the return is increasing. The debate (adjourned from That is why it is essential that the November 12) on the motion 'Of Mr. position should be ascertained every Manson (Minister of State Develop three years, sO' that additional benefits ment) for the second reading of this may be transmitted-not to present Bill was resumed. contributors but to the people who Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park).-The are now pensioners. Until it is known Opposition does not oppose the Bill, how healthy the fund is, it is but I wish to comment on the role impossible to assess correctly what that is played by chiropodists as an may be paid from the fund. However, aid to medical and surgical care. In I shall examine the point raised by his explanatory second-reading speech Chiropodists [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill.. 2509 the Minister stated that, although a chiropody for a number of years but medical practitioner indicates the who have not qualified or completed over-all nature of a disability or in some type of prescribed course with jury, the chiropodist's skill is used in one of these organizations or guilds? building artificial aids and in the manufacture of artificial limbs. As I mentioned previously, there is Furthermore, in view of the fact that some doubt as to how the Board may most general hospitals now have a be established 'Or how the original four consultant chiropodist to assist with chiropodists' representatives may be treatment of various types of cases appointed. Clause 10, in wide terms, needing chiropody, it is now desirable covers registration for the first that some type of registration and twelve months. However, I believe standardization should be imple honorable members would be happier mented so that there will be some if the Minister could supply more uniformity and a standard by which detail as to' which persons are likely chiropodists may be registered. to be accepted and who are likely to be excluded as likely candidates for I have one or two queries which I appointment to the board. I refer to hope the Minister may be able to the vari'Ous guilds and organiza satisfy. For instance, the Minister tions which are at present operat indicated that in 'Order to establish a ing in this field. The principle Board by which chiropodists may of registration is good, but more be registered four chiropodists will information as to the intention be appointed to the Board initially. of the Bill would be welcome. Who will be the chiropodists The definition of chiropody contained appointed, and on what recommenda in clause 2 of the Bill is wide and tion or on whose rec'Ommendation I am wondering if the position in will the Minister make such appoint Victoria may become similar to that ments? The Bill does not disclose how in the United States of Amerka this is to be done. The Bill does lay where chiropodists are permitted t'O down how subsequent appointments operate to correct deformities of the will be made, but it is not clear how feet and toes. the original four chiropodists are to be appointed so that the Chiropodists Members of the Opposition support Registration Board may be con the Bill, but there are many questions stituted and then undertake the task which we should like answered by a of registering chiropodists in the Minister in this House or by the future. Minister of Health in another place. I also ask the Minister whether it Mr. R. S. L. McDONALD (Rod is intended that in this registration ney) .-Members of the Country board the Australian Chiropody Asso Party also support the Bill, the pur ciation of Victoria will predominate pose of which is to make provision or will the Melbourne College of with respect to the registration of Chiropody be the only recognized chiropodists. This is a technological school? This matter is not clearly age and developments are continually occurring in the treatment of stated in the Bill. Furthermore, what diseases. It is 'Only natural in a grow is the standing of the Assodated ing popUlation that there will be a Chiropodists Guild, which is another greater call for people qualified in group ·of people who practise this the correction of feet complaints and art in Victoria? I should also be the treatment of diseases associated interested to learn what is the stand with the feet. In his second-reading ing of the London College of speech the Minister said- Chiropody, the National School of Over the years representations have been Chiropody and the .premier School of received from various interests for the intro Chiropody. What will be the position duction of legislation to recognize chiropody as a profession and so ensure that the of persons whO' have been practising members of the public receive chiropody 2510 Chiropodists [ASSEMBLY.] ·BilL· treatment from only those persons who are which members of my party do not adequately qualified. The practice of this profession is now regulated by legislation agree. The letter from the guild to by government registration boards in West the Minister stated- ern Australia, South Australia, New South We have now had an opportunity of Wales and Tasmania. studying the proposed Bill forwarded to us by the Honorable the Attorney-General. The For that reason I believe the Vic proposed Bill had not previously been for torian law should follow this line warded to this Guild and we had no prior and permit the registration of opportunity of studying same or suggesting chiropodists. It is a profession which any amendments thereto. will grow, and only qualified persons We now suggest the following amend ments to or in relation to the proposed should be allowed to treat complaints Bill:- of the feet. The old practice of a (a) That the Bill as drawn be rejected chiropodist merely providing a cure and be re-introduced at a later stage in an for corns is finished. The definition amended form; as this Guild representing a of chiropody as contained in clause number of Chiropodists has not had a 2 of the Bill covers most of the reasonable opportunity of studying same, commenting therein or suggesting amend actions that would be undertaken by ments thereto. these qualified persons. Clause 3 provides- Frankly, I do not agree with those Notwithstanding anything in this Act a comments because the health of the medical practitioner may practise chiropody nation is of paramount importance. and may recover in any court any fee or If the Government elevates chiropody charge for or with respect to the practise to a profession, as is proposed in this of chiropody. Bill, it will be doing the right thing. A medical practitioner is entitled to The letter continues- charge fees for this service and the (b) If (a) is not acted upon then the public must be protected by having following minimum amendments be made qualified people in the profession of to the Bill as presented: chiropody. The various provisions of (1) The definition of chiropody is much the Bill will ensure that that pro too wide. A person practising his pro fession within the ambit of that definition fession is properly controlled. I would be surely encroaching on the domain believe that the examinations pro of a qualified medical practitioner. posed to be conducted by the Board will be adequate. Sub-clause (1) of They have made that suggestion, but clause 4 provides for the establish how many of them continue in prac ment of the Board in the following tice without taking notice of it? That terms :- is why professionally qualified people For the purposes of this Act there shall must be available to undertake this be a Board appointed by the Governor in work. A person who needs treatment Council under the style of " The Chiropodists will not go to both a doctor and a Registration Board of Victoria" (hereinafter chiropodist. The chiropodist will be in this Act referred to as "the Board") consisting of the following:- elevated to the status of -a profes (a) Two medical practitioners nominated sional person and will exercise his by the governing body of the Victorian duties as he should.' The letter Branch of the Australian Medical Associa further states- tion; (2) Clause 9 (2) (a). For 21, substitute (b) One chiropodist selected by the eighteen years old. There are quite a Minister for appointment as chairman; and number of persons who are now in practice (c) Three chiropodists elected' by the who have not attained their majority. chiropodists of Victoria in the prescribed manner: It is my opinion that any person who The Board will set the courses and this has had experience in this profession will take time. In -a letter to the Min should have no trouble in completing ister of Health, the Associated the prescribed course set by the Chiropodists Guild, an organization Board. It will be in the interests of operating in Victoria, made several the people he is to treat that he comments on the Bill, with some of should have these quaUfications. The Mr. R. S. L. McDonald. Crimes. (Evidence) [3 DECEMBER, 1968.]·· ..... - BilL 2511 prin~iple generally accepted through . Mr.: ROSS-EDWARDS (Sh.eppar out. life is the greater the qualifica ton) .-1 move- tions .. the easier it is to carry out the That, in proposed new sub-section (4) job: The letter continues- of section 314, the words" of opinion" be , (3) Clause 10 (1) be amended by adding omitted with the view of inserting the words after the word "that" in the 4th line "satisfied beyond reasonable doubt". thereof the words "such person has com pleted a course of study through any school 1 am rather surprised that this pro,:, of chiropody in Victoria or has practised vision has been introduced in this chiropody for. reward during any period form. The matter was referred to the of the twelve months preceding the coming Statute Law Revision Committee into operation of this Act", and by delet ing the rest of the words in the said clause about ten years ago and the commit 10 (1). tee recommended that no action As stated in previous correspondence to should be taken. In his second~ you, no standard of training has previously reading speech the Attorney-General been in force in this State and therefore it is said that the number of cases in but right that any person in practice at which this clause would be applicable the commencement of the Act must be entitled to earn their livelihood without were few. However, he considered it further examination or interruption. desirable to introduce such a pro 1 do not agree with that statement. vision. If a person has been a chiropodist A similar section has been in for a long time he should have no operation in New South Wales for trouble in qualifying. He should have many years and the proposed new sufficient experience to enable -him to sub-section follows the wording of pass any test set by the Board. the New South Wales law. If Chiropractors have sought registra my amendment is accepted the tion for years and if the Government proposed new sub-section will then has seen fit to introduce legislation read, "and the jury are satisfied to register chiropodists it has a duty beyond reasonable doubt" instead also to introduce legislation to enable of " and the jury are of opinion ". In other professions to be registered. criminal cases in Victoria it has been the practice for a jury to be satisfied The motion was agreed to. beyond reasonable doubt before The Bill was read a second time, bringing in a verdict of gUilty. How and passed through its remaining ever, this wording has been watered stages. down to allow the jury to bring in a verdict merely if it is of " opinion " CRIMES (EVIDENCE) BILL. which is ,a lesser standard of proof: The House went into Committee It is difficult to see why we should for the further consideration of this deviate from the standard of proof Bill. which the jury must observe in other Discussion was resumed of clause matters, and I see no reason why 2, providing, inter alia- Victoria should follow the New South After sub-section (3) of section 314 of Wales practice. If there is some good the Principal Act there shall be inserted reason, which we have not heard, it the following sub-section:- could be considered. If not, it would " (4) Where, on the trial of a person for perjury, or for wilfully and corruptly be proper for the Government to making a false statement on oath, it appears accept the amendment. to the jury that the accused has made two statements on oath, of which one is irrecon Mr. G. O. REID (Attorney-General). cilably in conflict with the other, and the -I appreciate what the honorable jury are of opinion that one of· such state member for Shepparton has said. I ments was wilfully false, but they cannot say which of them was so, they may have made a fairly close study of the specially so find and the accused is guilty proposed amendment. The honorable of perjury or of wilfully and corruptly member is concerned that in pro making a false statement on oath (as the case may be) and he shall be liable to posed new SUb-section (4) of section punishment accordingly." 314 of the principal Act the words 2512 Crimes (Evidence) [ASSEMBLY. ] Bill. "the jury are of opinion that one of in this regard to tighten the law in such statements was wilfully false" regard to perjury, because all honor appear, and he wishes those words able members will agree that perjury to be replaced by the words, "the tends to undermine the whole of our jury are satisfied beyond reaso.n judicial system. False statements in able doubt that one of such state court can render the judicial system ments was wilfully false". inoperative, and the law should be It is necessary for me to reiterate tightened in this regard. Public what I said in my second-reading opinion is in favour of such an speech, that this proposed amend amendment. ment is designed to tighten the law in What concerns the honorable mem regard to perjury. At present it is ber for Shepparton is that in the pro possible for a perso.n to make a state posed sub-section (4) the words " the ment on oath, either in a court or in jury are of opinion that one of such some form of sworn statement out statements was wilfully false" appear, side the jurisdiction of the court, and and he desires to. introduce the to. make an entirely contrary state words, " the jury are satisfied beyond ment about the same matter in some reasonable doubt that .one of such other court or in some other proceed statements was wilfully false". I con ing. In these cases the Crown has cede-and any other member of the difficulty in establishing which state legal profession in this House will ment is false. It might be necessary agree-that the standard of pro.of in . for the Crown to charge a person criminal matters is that of proof be with making a false statement, but yond reasonable doubt. In answer to the Crown has no means of prcving what the hcnorable member says in whether the facts deposed to in the this regard, I should like to say that particular matter are falsely stated or there are three arguments against the not. proposition which induce me to say In my second-reading speech, I con that I am not prepared to accept the ceded that this matter has arisen amendment in the form put forward on a number of occasions in Victoria. by the honorable member. Some years ago it was brought to The first argument is that the pro the attention of the Statute Law posal follows the wording of the Revision Committee, which at that relevant section of the legislation in stage thought there was no necessity New South Wales and also, I under for an amendment to be made to the stand, of the wording .of the particular law. However, as I indicated in my section in Canada. So far as I know, explanatory speech, a number of the form of the new sub-section fol instances have been brought to the lows the words of other statutes, and notice of the Crown Solicitor and to the best of my knowledge and the Solicitor-General indicating that belief no difficulty has arisen in contradictory statements in different regard to these matters nor has any proceedings have been made by indication been given that an accused certain persons. As I pointed out then, person has been prejudiced. there are probably more instances than come to the notice of the Crown The second reason why I am not Solicitor and the Solicitor-General, disposed to accept the amendment because it is .only when these matters moved by the honorable member for are brought to their attention by a Shepparton is that I maintain that tribunal that the matter is recorded. the burden of proof is retained in the latter words of the sub-section. It Both in New South Wales and in provides, inter alia- Canada provisions such as are pro posed in this amendment have been Where, on the trial of a person for perjury, or for wilfully and corruptly making a false in force for scme time, and it is statement on oath, it appears to the jury considered that Victoria would do that the accused has made two statements well to follow these precedents on oath, of which one is irreconcilably in Mr. G. O. Reid. Crimes (Evidence) [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2513 oonflict with the other, and the jury are of I have no doubt that that type of opinion that one of such statements was legislation has motivated the honor wilfully false, but they cannot say which of them was so, they may specially so able member for Shepparton in find- moving his amendment, but, as I these are the important words- have said, the Opposition intends to vote against the clause for reasons and the accused is guilty of perjury.... which will be stated. I hope I do not That implies that before the jury find myself voting with the Govern made their finding they would have ment. It makes an Opposition member to be satisfied that all elements in feel uncomfortable when he has to the indictment sustained a proof vote with the Government in this beyond reasonable doubt. That is my Chamber. second argument against the accept ance of the honorable member's Mr. MOSS (Leader of the Country amendment. Party) .-As a layman, I am unable to follow the remarks of the honor My third reason for not supporting able member for Brunswick West his amendment is that, from my per regarding the difficulties to which he sonal knowledge, the general purpose has referred. He has said that he will of the Crimes Act is not to bring into not support the honorable member the general text matters affecting for Shepparton and that he intends the burden of proof, which is sub to vote against the clause. stantially a matter determined in common law decisions and is not a Mr. TURNBULL.-That is so. matter of statutory definition. If it Mr. MOSS.-The honorable mem is emphasized in this particular crime ber for Brunswick West has dted the that a certain element must be proved words "beyond a reasonable doubt" beyond reasonable doubt there is a which appear in the Canadian legis danger that it may throw doubts lation. The honorable member for upon other parts of the Crimes Act. Shepparton desires to have these The necessity for proof beyond words included in the new sub-section reasonable doubt in the interests of (4) of section 314. The Attorney the accused is preserved in those General has referred to the necessity parts of the Crimes Act, as well as to tighten up the law relating to per in this Bill, by the general common jury, and on more than one occasion law proposition that to sustain a the Attorney-General used the words conviction all these matters must be "beyond reasonable doubt". What proved beyond reasonable doubt at does an opinion mean? Does it mean common law. the opinion of the majority of the jury? . For those reasons, I am not pre pared to accept the amendment Mr. G. O. REID.-It means the whole moved by the honorable member for of the jury. Shepparton. Mr. MOSS.-The jury makes a Mr. TURNBULL (,Brunswick unanimous decision. If, after their West) .-1 do not propose to enter deliberations, they say, "We are of this argument because the Opposition opinion ", does that mean that they intends to vote against the whole of are unanimous? The effect is the clause 2 for reasons I shall give at the same as the proposal put forward by appropriate time. In favour of the the honorable member for Sheppar honorable member for Shepparton, I ton regarding the inclusion of the point out that the Canadian Criminal words "beyond reasonable doubt". Code states- This would be an added safeguard in . . . no person shall be convicted under the legislation. I realize it is diffi this section unless the court, judge or cult to convince honorable members magistrate, as the case may be, is satisfied on both sides who apparently do not beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused, wish to be convinced. in giving evidence in either of the judicial proceedings, intended to mislead. Mr. TURNBULL.-Not by a layman. 2514 Crimes ,(Evidence); . ,~ [ASSEMBLY.] Bill. Mr. MOSS.--"':"That is; so. The point the crime of perjury and to section 331-0f. the Crimes Act 1900 of the State of New. is that both honorable members have South Wales. His memorandum reads:- used the expression" beyond reason "Frequently Judges of the Supreme able doubt" and yet the Attorney Court refer to me documents and trans~ General seems convinced in his mind cript of evidence in cases heard before that the words "of opinion" are them suggesting that because of gross inconsistencies in evidence given by a sufficient. 1 cannot follow. the argu party investigations should be made ment. with the object of prosecuting for per-. jury any person prima facie guilty of Mr. TURNBULL ~Brunswick that crime. West) .-1 do not want to be placed "Investigations are almost invariably undertaken; but consideration of the in the position of supporting the resulting reports usually discloses that, amendment and then opposing the whilst perjury has been committed by: whole of the clause. that party yet it cannot be said which of the inconsistent statements on oath Mr. Moss.-What is the reason for is the true one. "The law as it stands requires the opposing it? Crown to prove the false statement on oath, so that inability in that direction Mr. TURNBULL.-If the Opposi results' in a perjurer escaping from a tion approved the proposed amend prosecution. " ment it would be taken as approving 1 suppose every week in almost every the remainder of the clause, whereas court of the land the inability of the it desires to oppose the whole clause. Crown to prove a false statement on oath results in a perjuror escaping The amendment was .negatived. from conviction. Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West). Mr. WILToN.-Probably it happens ~The OpPosition intends to vote every day. against the clause, which provides- Mr. TURNBULL.-I agree. In the After sub-section (3) of section 314 of Court of Petty Sessions at Shepparton the Principal Act there shall be inserted the or Numurkah, an Aborigine or some following sub-section:- person of low education could make " (4) Where, on the trial of a person for perjury, or for wilfully and corruptly inconsistent statements without making a false statement on oath, it knowing that he had done so. At appears to the jury that the accused times, persons who have a poor educa has made two statements on oath, of tional background will say almost which one is irreconcilably in conflict with the other, and the jury are of anything, hoping that in some waY': opinion that one of such statements their statements will prove advan was wilfully false, but they cannot say tageous to them. This situation could which of them was so, they may arise because of the person's mental specially so find and the accused is guilty of perjury or of wilfully and cor capacity, which renders him incapable ruptly making a false statement on of rationalizing but, because he is oath (as the case may be) and he shall anxious to help the court, he will say be liable to punishment accordingly ... almost anything. Frequently, state This question was considered by the ments on oath emanating from per Statute Law Revision Committee in sons of this type can be contradictory. September, 1958. An examination of I cannot understand why the Crown the committee's report reveals that should not be in the same position the reasons advanced by the in regard to offences of the type en-: Attorney-General in support of this visaged in this Bill as it occu.pies in clause coincide with the views of the ordinary cases of larceny. The police Attorney-General in 1958. The com or the Crown should attempt to obtain mittee's report states- evidence to show which statements are false and, if this cannot be done,' 1. The Honorable the Attorney-General, by memorandum dated 11 th February, 1958, the persons concerned, as in the case drew the attention of the committee to an of many other crimes, should be con-' apparent anomaly in the: law relating -to sidered innocent. .'\ Crimes. (Evidence) [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] , Bill. 2515 Mr. Moss.-Under this proposal, a of this type frequently confront the person could be found guilty without Crown, which has no means -of know a trial. ing which of the two statements is Mr. TURNBULL.-That is so. This false. It is desired to legislate to deal matter was thoroughly investigated with cases of this type. by the Statute Law Revision Commit As I stated in my second-reading tee, which came to the following speech, the Statute Law Revision conclusion: - Committee came to the conclusion -: The committee is not convinced that the that this amendment was not neces mIschief to which the Honorable the sary but that these matters -are being Attorney-General adverted in his memoran continually brought to the notice of dum is either sufficiently grave or sufficiently widespr~ad to justify the enactment of either the Solicitor-Genetal and the Crown provision in Victoria. Solicitor and, if the integrity of the courts is to be preserved, the law Opposition members consider that the must be tightened in this regard. truth of that statement still stands today. We propose to vote against Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick \Vest). the clause. -The provision states that the false Mr. Moss.-Who were the Legisla statements must be made on oath. tive Assembly members of the Mr. G. O. REID.-The statements Statute Law Revision Committee would have to be on oath to consti which considered this matter? tute perjury. Mr. TURNBULL.-The committee Mr. TURNBULL.-The two state included the honorable member for ments in question could be made in Albert Park, the honorable member the one court proceeding and not in for Sunshine, the honorable member separate cases. I am not convinced for Benambra, the honorable member by the remarks of the Attorney for Gippsland West, the Minister of General and, therefore, the Opposition State Development and the Minister will vote against the clause. of Transport, all of whom are eminent persons, who would not come to a The Committee divided on the decision of this type unless they had clause (Mr. L. S. Reid in the chair)- devoted great care and attention to Ayes 39 the problem. Noes 26 Mr. G. O. REID (Attorney-General). -Briefly, I point out that the honor Majority for the clause 13 able member for Brunswick West has AVES. overlooked the fact that this clause Mr. Balfour Mr. Reid relates to persons who have made Mr. Billing (Box Hill) contradictory statements on oath in Mr. Birrell Mr. Rossiter different proceedings. Various Sir Henry Bolte Sir Arthur Rylah Mr. Borthwick Mr. Scanlan examples of this have been brought Mr. Darcy Mr. Smith (Hellarine) to the notice of the Crown Law autho Mr. Dixon Mr. Smith rities from time to time. Mr. Doyle (Warmambool) Mr. Dunstan Mr. Stephen For the benefit of honorable mem Mr. Evans Sir Edgar Tanner bers, I shall quote a typical case. It (Ballaarat North) Mr. Tanner (Morwell) Mrs. Goble Mr. Taylor concerns a woman who swore in Mr. Hayes Mr. Templeton divorce proceedings that she had not Mr. Jona Mr. Trethewey committed adultery with a certain Mr. Loxton Mr. Vale man, whom I shall call Mr. X. In Mr. MacDonald Mr. Wheeler (Glen Iris) Mr. Wilcox subsequent proceedings, in which the Sir William McDonald Mr. Wiltshire. woman was bringing a Supreme Court Mr. McLaren action against Mr. X., she swore that Mr. Manson Tellers: Mr. Meagher she had committed adultery with him Mr. Porter Mr. McKellar on a number of occasions. -Situations Mr. Reese Mr. Suggett. 2516 Crimes (Evidence) [ASSEMBLY.] Bill. NOES. amendment could be criticized 'on the Mr. Buckley Mr. Moss grounds that a person could be taken Mr. Clarey Mr. Phelan to any police station. 1 should hope Mr. Cochrane Mr. Ring Mr. Divers Mr. Ross-Edwards that it would be the nearest police Mr. Edmunds Mr. Sutton station. Problems arise when the Mr. Evans Mr. Trewin members of the mobile patrol do not (Gippsland East) Mr. Trezise Mr. Fennessy Mr. Turnbull know whether a police station will be Mr. Floyd . Mr. Whiting open or not. It is agreed that a person Mr. Ginifer Mr. Wilkes who has a blood-alcohol content Mr. Holding Mr. Wilton. greater than .05 per cent. should be Mr. Lovegrove Mr. McDonald Tellers: tested, but this should be done in the (Rodney) Mr. Broad privacy of a police station and not in Mr. Mitchell Mr. Mutton. the public view. Therefore, I move- That the words .. or at the police station" PAIRS. be omitted with the view of inserting the Sir John Bloomfield I Dr. Jenkins words .. at the police station nearest to Mr. Rafferty Mr. Stoneham that place". Mr. Stokes Sir Herbert Hyland. Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick Clause 3- West) .-1 wholeheartedly support In sub-paragraph (ii) in paragraph (b) the honorable member for Shep of sub-section (4) of section 408A of the parton. The principal Act provides Principal Act for the words .. or a~ the police station" there shall be substituted that a person who is required to the words .. or at or in the vicinity of the furnish a sample of his breath for the police station". purposes of analysis shall not be Mr. ROSS-EDWARDS (Shep- obliged to do so except within two parton) .-1 shall explain the two hours of the driving or being in charge amendments circulated in my name of the motor car in respect of which and I shall move them separately. a member of the Police Force has a The principal Act provides that a belief that the person has behaved in person shall be given a breathalyzer a manner which indicates that his test at the scene of the accident or ability to drive a motor car was that he shall be taken to a police impaired, and at or in the vicinity of station nearest to that place. In a the place where his driving or being recent court case it was found that a in charge of a motor car occurred, or defendant was taken to the nearest at the police station nearest to this police station, which was shut, and place. It could well be that the the test was taken outside the police vicinity of the place where the driving station. For this reason, the case occurred was in the street. failed. The amendment contained in The person should be taken away this clause is that the police shall in a dignified manner and the test carry out the test at orin the vicinity should be undertaken at a police of the police station. My second station. He should not be subjected amendment proposes that the test to the test in front of members of shall be carried out at a police station. the public but should be taken to a The expression proposed by the quiet place and the test then carried Government, "at or in the vicinity out away from the public eye. I of the police station", hinges on the should imagine that a level surface meaning of the word "vicinity", is needed for the breathalyzer to which I presume means somewhere function properly. It is important near a police station. that the test should be carried out A person may be apprehended on in a dignified way and where the suspicion of having a blood-alcohol person concerned would be able to content greater than .05 per cent., and take some interest in the proceedings he may be placed in a police van and in what was recorded. The either by day or by night in circum penalty for the offence is severe stances that may damage his reputa a convicted person shall lose his tion as an innocent person. My licence for at least three months. Motor Car (Further [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Amendment) Bill. 2517 Opposition members support the The clause was agreed to. amendment moved by the honorable member for Shepparton. Clause 4 (Copy certificate as to breath test to be evidence). The Committee divided on the question that the words proposed Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West). by Mr. Ross-Edwards to be omitted -The Attorney-General has cleared stand part of the clause (Mr. L. S. up some doubts that I had about this Reid in the chair)- clause, and the Opposition now has no objection to the clause. Ayes 38 Noes 25 The clause was agreed to, as was the remaining clause. Majority against the The Bill was reported to the House amendment 13 without amendment, and passed AYEs. through its remaining stages. Mr. Balfour Mr. Reid Mr. Billing (Box Hill) Mr. Birrell Mr. Rossiter MOTOR CAR (FURTHER Mr. Borthwick Sir Arthur Rylah AMENDMENT) BILL. Mr. Darcy Mr. Scanlan The House went into Committee Mr. Dixon Mr. Smith Mr. Doyle (Bellarine) for the further consideration of this Mr. Dunstan Mr. Smith Bill. Mr. Evans ( Warrnambool) (Ballaarat North) Mr. Stephen Discussion was resumed of clause Mrs. Goble Mr. Tanner 7, as amended, providing, inter alia Mr. Hayes (Morwell) Section 22B of the Principal Act is hereby Mr. Jona Sir Edgar Tanner amended as follows:- Mr. Loxton Mr. Taylor Mr. Templeton Mr. MacDonald (b) After sub-section (4) there shall be (Glen Iris) Mr. Trethewey Mr. Vale inserted the following sub-sec Sir William McDonald Mr. Wheeler tions:- Mr. McLaren Mr. Wilcox " (4A) Any person being the holder of Mr. Manson Mr. Wiltshire. a licence issued on probation under this Part Mr. Meagher Tellers: who within a period of twelve months after Mr. Porter Mr. McKellar the date of issue of such licence drives a Mr. Reese Mr. Suggett. motor car which does not have conspic uously on the front and rear thereof a plate NOES. clearly marked with the letter P and of the Mr. Broad Mr. Mitchell size and colour prescribed shall be guilty Mr. Buckley Mr. Moss of an offence against this Part and liable to Mr. Clarey Mr. Phelan a penalty of not more than $50." Mr. Cochrane Mr. Ring Mr. Divers Mr. Ross-Edwards and of Mr. Manson's amendment Mr. Edmunds Mr. Sutton Mr. Evans Mr. Trezise That, in paragraph (b), the following sub (Gippsland East) Mr. Turnbull section be inserted to follow sub-section Mr. Fennesy Mr. Whiting (4A) :- Mr. Floyd Mr. Wilkes "(4B) Sub-sections (2A) and (4A) shall Mr. Holding Mr. Wilton. not apply to a member of the police force Mr. Lovegrove Tellers: who drives a motor car registered in the Mr. McDonald Mr. Mutton name of the Victoria Police Department (Rodney) Mr. Trewin. in the course of his duties as a member of the police force and who is the holder PAIRS. of an Approved Driver's Certificate in Sir John Bloomfield ISir Herbert Hyland dorsed for the particular class of motor Sir Henry Bolte Dr. Jenkins car being so driven." Mr. Rafferty Mr. Stoneham. The CHAIRMAN (Mr. L. S. Reid). Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Sec -As the next amendment proposed retary) .-1 support the amendment. to be moved by the honorable mem Mr. WILKES (Northcote).- In the ber for Shepparton is entirely absence of the Chief Secretary, it dependent upon the amendment was suggested that the amendment which has been negatived, it cannot should be taken away and recon proceed. sidered by the Government. The Bill 2518 . ·Motor .Car (Further [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment) Bill . provides that the holder of a proba Sir ARTHUR RYLAH.-Thaf is tionary licence shall display "P" normal, and the honorable member plates on any private vehicle that he must excuse me for doing sO' because drives and that he shall not exceed it is the Opposition's usual form. Op the speed limit of 50 miles per hour position members have been doing it on the open road. The amendment for a long time and are enjoying it. proposes that a policeman who is I want to be serious and fair. the holder of a probationary licence Can any honorable member imagine and who is in charge of a police anything more ridiculous than a vehicle shall no longer be bound by police car driven by a qualified police the provisions of the measure. The man aged eighteen years bearing a amendment provides that if he is in uP" plate at the front and rear? possession of a special licence-I Mr. WILKES.-I could not imagine presume that means if he has received anything more ridiculous. instruction at the police driving school at Broadmeadows-because Sir ARTHUR RYLAH.-That is all he has received special training, the the amendment is designed to achieve. provisions of the Act shall not The recommendation from the Police apply. Irrespective of whether a Department is that if a police driver policeman has had the benefit is certified as qualified by the Chief of special driving instruction at Commissioner he should not have to Broadmeadows, if in fact he is the display the "P" plates at ,any time. holder of a probationary licence the Mr. CLAREY.-One law for the provisions of the Act should apply. police and another for the civilians! Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Sec Sir ARTHUR RYLAH.-For the retary) .-1 am glad that the Opposi first time since I have been in the tion has come out quite frankly on Chamber the honorable member for this subject. Can any honorable Melbourne has expressed something member imagine anything more with which 1 entirely agree. When a ridiculous than a police car with a policeman is driving a police car 'and " P" plate on it? Does anyone is in possession of a qualifying cer seriously imagine that this would go tificate from the Chief Commissioner, down with the community? it would be silly for him to display a Mr. ROSSITER.-Yes, the Opposi cc P" plate. tion. Mr. FLOYD.-You will have trouble Sir ARTHUR RYLAH.-I know with Lovell. that, but I am talking about reason Sir ARTHUR RYLAH.-The honor able people. I am sure that the Deputy able member for Williamstown has Leader of the Opposition thought he had a lot of trouble with Lovell for would score a political point over this. a long time, but I do not want to refer Mr. WILKES.-I have to that. I am trying to deal with the another say. question seriously and to be fair. Sir ARTHUR RYLAH.-I have, too, ~nd I shall mak~ use of it and enjoy Mr. WILTON.-It will be a case of It. I do not thmk anyone -is more numbers count. capable of rubbishing the Police Force Sir ARTHUR RYLAH.-I know than the Opposition. I do not refer to that numbers count, but I am trying the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. to be serious about this. 1 do not say Mr. WILKES.-Explain the amend that there should be one rule for the ment. rich and one for the poor, as the hon orable member for Melbourne accused Sir ARTHUR RYLAH.-I have ex plained me of thinking. I said that if a police it. driver were driving a car in accor . Mr. WILTON .-All you have done dance with an authority issued ~s accuse the .Opposition of rubbish by the Chief Commissioner it lng the Police Force. would be silly for him, to be Motor Car (Further [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] 'Amendment)- Bill. 2519 -required to display a "P" plate. Mr~ WILKES (Northcote).-This is On the other hand, it would also be the first time I have heard that silly if a policeman of the age of Standing Order imposed in Com~ eighteen years who had the right not mittee in this House. I point out to- display it while he was driving a that it is not a matter of whether police vehicle on duty, when driving a it is stupid or not for a policeman to motor car at Sunbury or Bulla or have to display" P " plates on a police ~omewhere else could say, "Because vehicle. Of course, it is stupid and the I am a policeman, I do not have to OppoSition does not consider that display a 'P' plate". such, a situation should obtain. The Opposition asserts that a policeman The Opposition can make all the who is a probationary driver as a political capital it wishes out of this, civilian should not be in charge of 'a as it has been doing, but I think the police vehicle. amendment is reasonable. I do not mind if the Opposition wants to toss it If a policeman isa probationary out, but I do not know why it should driver as a civilian, the same pro be considered unreasonable. I do not visions of the Act should apply to him know why the Opposition should split if the Chief Commissioner sees fit to hairs and suggest that this is illogical, put him in charge of a police vehicle. unreasonable and detrimental to the If he is not competent enough under Police Force. Under the Bill as it the Act as a civilian he is no more stands, if an eighteen-year-old police competent as a policeman. Whilst driver drives a motor car he must dis he is driving as a civilian under the play a "P" sign. I think all honorable Act he will be required to display members agree that it would be " P" plates and not to exceed 50 ridiculous to do that on a police miles an hour. If the Chief Commis vehicle. sioner sees fit to put him in charge of a police vehicle because of special Mr. WILKES.-Suppose he drives qualifications which he has achieved an ordinary vehicle? after training, he should be in no Sir ARTHUR RYLAH.-That is different position from a civilian. exactly what the amendment is de I am not concerned about the dis signed to do. If the policeman is driv play of "P" plates, but about the ing a police vehicle under the principle -involved. If a police driver authority of the Chief Commissioner is not experienced enough as a civilian he will not display" P " plates, but if he is not experienced enough as a he is driving his own vehicle while policeman. There can be no doubt on leave he will be required to do so about that. If he is experienced the same as any other teenager. I do enough as a policeman' to escape the not know why there should be any provisions of the Act, he should be political debate over this. experienced enough as a civilian. That Mr. WILKEs.-Mr. Acting Chair is where the amendment falls down. man-- It is not because he is a policeman ; it is because he is a civilian. The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Sir Edgar Tanner).-Does the honorable Sir ARTHUR RYLAH.-You will get a member intend to address the Com lot of marks for rubbishing the Police mittee on the amendment? Force. Mr. WILKES.-Yes. Mr. WILKES.-The Chief Secretary is very touchy. His Government has The ACTING CHAIRM.AlN.-Un been battered from one side of the der Standing Order No. 78E, the Chamber to the other. Opposition honorable member has already exer members are entitled to be critical if cised his right to speak. If it is the they think there is something wrong will of the Committee, I shall hear with measures introduced by the the honorable member. Government. We are critical of this 2520 Motor Car (Further [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment) Bill. Bill. I would not dare to discuss any The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Sir Ed thing other than the amendment. We gar Tanner).-Order! The Committee have already expressed our views on will come to order forthwith. the Bill in general. Certain honorable members are Sir ARTHUR RYLAH.-And what you making it difficult for the Chief think of the P.olice Force. Secretary to be heard. Sir ARTHUR RYLAH.-I cannot Mr. WILKES.-We have expressed hear all the terms of endearment that our views on the P.olice Force in this are being thrown about, but I be State. On numerous occasions Oppo lieve that to refer to an honorable sition and Country Party members member as a great lout is not honor have stated that they consider our able and I ask for a withdrawal. Police Force unparalleled anywhere in the Commonwealth. We are not in Mr. HOLDING.-Which honorable terested in the Chief Secretary's in member are you talking about? nuendoes, but point out that the Sir ARTHUR RYLAH.-The hon honorable gentleman cannot have his orable member for Syndal. cake ,and eat it too. If a civilian is Mr. HOLDING.-He has not com bound by the provisions of the Motor plained. Car Act, a policeman should be bound by them when he is on duty. If be Sir ARTHUR RYLAH.-I have cause of the stupidity of this Govern complained. ment the drafting of the amendment Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the forces a policeman to display "P" Opposition) .-Mr. Acting Chairman, plates on his vehicle, that is not the as a result of the Chief Secretary's responsibility of the Opposition. As complaint, and having studied the the Opposition suggested· before din performances of the honorable mem ner, the amendment should be taken ber for Syndal over a period of time, away and redrafted so that a person I certainly withdraw my interjection who is a probationary driver will be that he is a great lout; he is a very bound while he is a policeman. Why small lout. should he be able to exceed the speed The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Sir Ed limit when acting as a policeman? gar Tanner).-I have to call on the This is not a reflection on the Police Leader of the Opposition to make a Force ; it is a reflection on the Govern proper withdrawal. ment. The Opposition opposes the amendment. Mr. WILTSHIRE.-Withdraw unre servedly. Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Sec retary).-I remind the Deputy Leader Mr. HOLDING.-I withdraw. of the Opposition that this does not Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Sec deal simply with eighteen-year-old retary) .-May I say briefly and suc drivers. cinctly that the argument submitted by the Deputy Leader of the Opposi Mr. WILKES.-You mentioned tion was based on the premise that eighteen-year-olds. all of the policemen who were au Sir ARTHUR RYLAH.-I did not. thorized by the Chief Commissioner The honorable member referred to to drive were eighteen years old, and that. therefore in their first year of driving. Perhaps the Deputy Leader of the Op Mr. HOLDING.-That is the best position did not understand the pro speech you have made this year. vision. It has been designed in the Mr. WILTSHIRE (to Mr. Holding). interests of road safety, and it con You cannot put two and two together. cerns a matter which the Government believes to be fundamental to road Honorable members interjecting. safety. The only exception that the Mr. HOLDING.-I just gave you an Government is making is that when intelligent suggestion, you great lout. a policeman has passed the necessary Motor Car (Further [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Amendment) Bill. 2521 tests, so far as the Chief Commis a policeman off duty should have sioner is concerned, even if he is privileges that an ordinary citizen eighteen years old he should not have does not have, but apparently this to display "P" plates when driving is not within the conception of the a police car. The Deputy Leader of Leader of the Opposition, who, in his the Opposition agreed that nothing inimitable fashion, is about to tear could be more ridiculous than that. the Government to pieces. Mr. WILKEs.-What about the 50 Mr. HOLDING.- You said it. miles per hour speed limit? Sir ARTHUR RYLAH.-Yes, and Sir ARTHUR RYIJAH.-That could members of the Committee will enjoy lead to a ridiculous situation when the it. I reiterate that it is a fair pro Chief Commissioner, after a test, had position and that if the Opposition authorized a policeman to drive. If, does not like it, it can move to throw for instance, an attempt were made it out. The Government will not be to apprehend bank robbers, of whom upset. It considers that it has done we have recently heard so much, the the fair thing in the interests of both policeman would not be displaying the Police ·Force and the community. " P " plates but would have to say to Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the the sergeant in charge of the crew, Opposition) .-Mr. Acting Chairman, " Because I am under the 'Dog Act', I feel bound to point out that I, as a I cannot drive at more than 50 miles member of this Parliament, am be an hour. I am terribly sorry, ser coming a little tired, and perhaps a geant, but I cannot follow this car little angered at the attitude of the because I must maintain 50 miles an Chief Secretary. Whenever an hon hour and go no faster". orable member raises a question con If the Government had suggested cerning the Police Force the instinc to the Opposition that a policeman, tive political reaction of the honor because he has been certified to drive able gentleman is not to con by the Chief Commissioner, should be sider the merits of the argument or able to break all of the rules, whether proposition, but to resort to what driving a police car or his own, the surely must be the lowest card in his Leader and Deputy Leader of the Op bag of political tricks; that is, to position and the honorable member for accuse any member of the Opposition Melbourne would have screamed to who exercises his right in respect of the high heaven _that a preference these matters of demeaning the police was being extended to policemen, force and attacking its reputation. whether on or off duty. All that the Government has attempted in the A study of Parliamentary records proposed amendment is to ensure that over past years will show that no policemen who have been authorized member of this House has put forward by the Chief Commissioner to drive more positive proposals to make the when performing their functions in Police Force in this State a more the service of Her Majesty and in the effective body for the protection of interests of the community should be the people of Victoria than the Deputy exempt from the obligations I have Leader of the Opposition. He has mentioned. They would not be ex put forward proposals which would empt when driving their own cars. engender within the Police Force a According to the Opposition, how feeling of pride in its own reputation ever, the Government has done some and capacity. No member has done thing crooked and is giving policemen more to advance the cause of the a privilege which is not enjoyed by Police Force than the honorable ordinary members of the community. member. The Government agrees with what What is the basis of the proposition the honorable member for Melbourne put forward by the Deputy Leader of said. The honorable member was the Opposition? It is simple. The right on the ball when he asked why Deputy Leader of the Opposition has 2522 Motor' Car (Further [ASSEMBLY.] , . Amei7ilment) .BilL' argued-and I should have thought it Mr. HOLDING.-The member of was beyond argument-that there the Liberal Party who has interjected. are, or ought to be, enough drivers of has been nominated to an all-party police vehicles who can exercise the committee dealing with road safety; responsibilities placed upon them as He is actually paid for it; and that is members of the Police Force, without the best that he can offer. the Chief Commissioner having to MR. ROSSITER.-You are being as rely on probationary drivers. low as you can get. MR JONA.-There are not enough Mr. HOLDING.-I shall deal with of them. the interjection of the Minister of, Labour and Industry later. I am MR. WILKES (to Mr. Jona) .-As tired-- chairman of the Road Traffic Com Mr. ROSSITER.- You are tired! We mittee, you ought to know better. are tired. Mr. HOLDING.-I have heard some Mr. MANSON (Minister of State slurs cast on the Police Force in my Development) .-1 rise to a point of time, but I have never heard a more order, Mr. Acting Chairman. I hope implied slur than that of the honor that I am a reasonable man, and I able member for Hawthorn. The wish to be fair. Do not let us be silly honorable member has said that the at this stage of the sitting. I appeal Police Force is presumably so incom to the Leader of the Opposition to petent and so lacking in skill and return to the Bill and to refrain from introducing personalities into capacity that it cannot find enough the Committee's deliberations. drivers who comply with the laws of the State which relate to licensed MR. JONA (to Mr. Holding) .-If drivers and has to rely on eighteen you had any decency, you would year-old probationary drivers. withdraw. Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the The Minister of Labour and In Opposition) .-Members of the Oppo dustry has interjected to say some sition sit in the Chamber awaiting a thing about demonstrations outside contribution by members such as the Pentridge. There are two groups of honorable member for Hawthorn. As people who operate around Pentridge. chairman of the Road Safety Com One group is inside, and the other mittee he should be able to contri group is outside but should be in bute to the debate. The Deputy side, although usually they are not to Leader of the Opposition has been be found demonstrating outside. abused by the Chief Secretary to night. The honorable member was I commend that thought to the subjected to a stream of interjections Minister. The warders at Pentridge when he advanced arguments in are overworked and underpaid. respect of this Bill, and the Chief The essence of this proposition is Secretary then had the gall to that there is an incompetent Chief accuse him of doing nothing more than demean the Police Force. Secretary who is being protected by There was no objection from the an incompetent Minister of Labour honorable member for Hawthorn, and Industry, and if the Chief Sec and there was no mild rebuke to " get retary needs to be protected I make on with the debate" by the Minis a plea to members of the Liberal ter of State Development. Party not to let it be done by the To return to the Bill, the basis of Minister of Labour and Industry. the argument that has been advanced on behalf of the Opposition by the MR. JONA.-Proceed with the Bill, Deputy Leader of the Opposition is, and drop the personal abuse. simply, that within the Police Force Motor Car (Further [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] '. Amendment)· Bill. 2523 there ought to be enough skill, com Mr. MANSoN.-They receive special petence and capacity, because a per training. son who drives a police car has great Mr. HOLDING.-In this situation responsibility. If he is driving along they do not have special training. a road and sees a car which is being I do not know what the average age illegally used, or if-to take the of members of the Police Force is, but analogy used by the Chief Secretary I think it is well over eighteen years. -he sees a bank or a Totalizator There are plenty of members of the Agency Board agency being held up, Police Force who, in terms of special and he sets off in hot pursuit, what training that is involved in this Bill, is required from the man behind the are well over that age. The basis of wheel is a skill, capacity and dili the argument of the Deputy Leader gence in driving which goes far be of the Opposition is that probationary yond the skill, diligence and capac drivers ought not to be placed in con ity of the average driver, whether trol of police vehicles. What is the he is licensed or not. answer to that proposition? I have Mr. MANSoN.-That is why he re not heard it from the Chief Secretary. ceives specialist training. It is no answer to say that, because Mr. HOLDING.-I accept the that proposition is put, the Police Minister's interjection. There are not Force is being abused. Members of sufficient police cars available to the Opposition reject that argument members of the Police Force. The entirely. skill and capacity are a specialist skill and a specialist capacity. Police The Deputy Leader of the cars ought not to be used as a train Opposition has asked: What is the ing ground for probationary drivers. case for the Police Force relying on The matter is as simple as that. probationary drivers to drive police vehicles? Is there some special prob The relationship of members of the lem about the Police Force that we do Police Force with the general public not know about? Is the Police Force is difficult and complex. The aver so short of men who are skilled, age member of the public ought not possessing licences, who are unin to feel or to be led to the view that, terested in receiving this special in respect of the law, members of training that it has to rely on pro the Police Force are in a special posi bationary drivers? That is the heart tion. In making that point, I do not of the argument. demean the Police Force or detract from it. I am concerned to protect I should have thought the way the it, its reputation and its capacity. argument of the Deputy Leader of If a member of the Police Force is the Opposition could be rebutted going to operate under this Bill, he would be by producing facts and should do so in his own time; he evidence in respect of the opera should get his skill and training in his tion and structure of the Police own time. The whole purpose and Force which showed that the exemp purport of the Bill is to provide a situ tion contemplated by this amend ation where people who are proba ment was necessary for the proper tionary drivers, irrespective of age, and effective functioning of the Force. can ultimately obtain a qualification. If that were done, perhaps it ought They are restricted for the first to be considered. But that has not twelve months. The point that has been done. All that has happened up been made by the Deputy Leader of to date is that honorable members the Opposition is that in this situation have been informed that in the members of the Police Force ought opinion of the Chief Secretary it is not to obtain any 'special concession necessary. It is suggested that any by virtue of their membership of the body who disagrees with that view is Police Force. guilty of abusing or demeaning the 2524 Motor Car (Further [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment) Bill. Police Force. Members of the Oppo Mr. WHEELER.-Keep to the Bill. sition reject that argument. Until the Mr. HOLDING.-I realize that the Government or members of the Gov honorable member is in trouble in his ernment are prepared to meet the electorate. I shall not go into that substance of the argument of the matter. Deputy Leader of the Opposition, this amendment ought to be handled as Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Sec the Deputy Leader of the Opposition retary) .-1 wish to raise a point of suggested. order. I suggest that the Leader of the Opposition should keep to the Members of the Police Force carry Bill, and more immediately to the out an important role in this com amendment. munity, but they are like other mem bers of the Public Service. They are Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the an important body of men who, by Opposition) .-Many individual mem and large, are neither more nor less bers of the Police Force are gravely important than any group of public concerned about aspects of its ad servants in the community. There ministration and operation. It is not are many fine and dedicated mem going to do this Government or this bers of the Police Force, but, like House or the Police Force any good any large number of men operating if we adopt the attitude of the hon in the Public Service, there will from orable member for Hawthorn who, time to time be areas of incompe when any issues relating to the tence and inefficiency, and in recent Police Force are raised in Parliament, times-I do not believe to the dis states that members are attacking grace or the over-all operation of the and undermining the Force. Nothing Police Force-there have been oc could be more damaging to the Police casions when individual members Force than that sort of attitude, and have been guilty of corruption. When members of the Opposition reject it. those things occur they ought to be The honorable member for Hawthorn faced in terms of their reality, be has not had the guts to speak in cause members of the Police Force recent months; he has sat silent are not angels-they are mortal men, when many important issues have they are public servants, and been before this Parliament. As a like any group of public servants member of the Committee of Public they are answerable to Parliament. Accounts he remained silent and did 1 am tired of the Chief Secretary not have the guts to speak. speaking as if there were something Mr. WHEELER (Essendon).-On a special about members of the Police point of order, 1 suggest that the Force, so that any member of Leader of the Opposition should with Parliament who chooses to raise any draw his remark that the honorable question about the Police Force is member for Hawthorn is a member immediately handled on the basis of the Committee of Public Accounts. that he is abusing, demeaning or The honorable member is not a mem lowering the general reputation of ber of that committee; nor is the the Force. Committee of Public Accounts related Mr. JONA.-You are shaking the to this Bill. public confidence in the Force, and Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the you know it. Opposition) .-1 apologize unre Mr. HOLDING.-One of the rea servedly to the honorable member sons why this Government is never for Hawthorn. 1 should have referred out of trouble is that occasionally an to the honorable member for Essen inquiry is made into the operation of don, who is a member of the the Government. This happened re Committee of Public Accounts. cently in a report by the Committee of It is important that members of Public Accounts. the Police Force should not be set Motor Car (Further [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Amendment) Bill. 2525 aside from any other section of public Mr. WILKEs.-He cannot be speci servants. In some ways, they are ally trained at eighteen years of age. better and more competent than Mr. MANSON.-With great respect officers in other areas of the Public to the Deputy Leader 'Of the Opposi Service; they have a difficult and tion, I did not interrupt him when he complex job to do, and many members was speaking on this perfectly simple of the Force carry out their jobs to matter. It does not matter if the the best of their ability, but it is the policeman is 18, 19, 21 or 30 years of job of this Parliament to improve the age; he is a newly-licensed driver. Police Force where possible and to be Therefore, he ought to be a proba critical where necessary. That is how tionary driver. As well as being a pro the Deputy Leader of the Opposition bationary driver he is also. a police has acted in respect of this measure. driver. Honorable members abrogate their Mr. HOLDING.-Does that in fact responsibility if they do not act in happen? this way. Mr. MANSON.-It could. The arguments advanced by the Mr. HOLDING.-Does it? Deputy Leader of the Opposition Mr. MANSON.-I am trying to be have not been met on their merits. fair to every'One concerned. I know They have been met by the Chief of no specific case, but the amend Secretary in the traditional manner in ment is designed to try to protect which he has met every question and the generality of cases and it may be every problem concerning the Police that there are two or twenty such Force. This subject has only to be cases. adverted to and the Chief Secretary is on his feet, screaming and yelling Mr. HOLDING.-Or none. and saying that members are attack Mr. MANSON.-Without theoriz ing the reputation of the Police Force. ing too much, the fact is that there Tha t is not true in this case, nor has could be a man who was a pro it been on previous occasions. I be bationary driver, aged 18, 19, 21 or lieve the Chief Secretary could do the 30 years, and he should carry a "P " Police Force a real service if he de plate. As well as being a proba sisted from this attitude and listened tionary driver he could also' be a to the substance of the arguments police driver. Whether or not mem advanced by honorable members, be bers of the Opposition agree, such a cause in this case the argument ad person gets special training as a vanced by the Opposition would driver and is granted an approved serve to protect and enbance the re driver's certificate, but only after putation of the Police Force and not completing a special and very diffi diminish it. cult course. The amendment speci Mr. MANSON (Minister of State fically refers to the holder of an approved driver's certificate endorsed Development). - A t rem end 0 u s amount of heat has been generated for a particular class of motor in this debate, quite unnecessarily, vehicle. He is a man with a dual and I hope honorable members will capacity. On Saturday as a civilian now relate their remarks to the he is a probationary driver and on Monday he is a driver for the amendment and~o the very simple proposition that it contains. It is so Police Force executing his duty to simple that even the Leader of the protect the Opposition, the Govern Opposition and the Deputy Leader of ment and the community generally. the Opposition, if they are prepared Mr. WILKEs.-He should not be a to' listen, ought to be able to under probationary driver. stand it. The proposition is that a Mr. MANSON.-I do not agree with policeman who has been specially the statement made by the Deputy trained and who is the holder of an Leader of the Opposition. The facts approved driver's certificate-- are as I am giving them. Session 1968.-93. 2526 MotorCar (Further [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment) Bill. The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Sir Ed to ensure that adequate training was gar Tanner).-Order! Members of given to all learner-drivers. However, the Committee have been given a it was still necessary for a reason great deal of licence. If honorable able period of time to elapse in order members want me to get hard, they that two things might happen. The will continue in the present vein. first was the development of mechani Mr. MANSON.-On the Saturday cal aptitude. This is the reference that this man is restricted to driving a the Minister of State Development vehicle at 50 miles an hour, but on has made, quite rightly, and I can Monday he may have to drive a police see that he agrees with me. car at 60 or 70 miles an hour. What is Mr. MANSON.-I agree with what wrong with that if he holds this par you are saying now. ticular type of licence after having been given special training? Mr. LOVEGROVE.-A reasonable period of time has to elapse to allow Mr. WILKEs.-He should not be a mechanical aptitude to manifest it probationary driver. self. The second thing responsible for Mr. MANSON.-I cannot agree the length of time which must elapse with the Opposition. We have a before a probationary driver becomes reasonable argument, and it is on the a good driver is the development of basis of this argument that the road sense. In a city such as Mel amendment was moved by the Chief bourne, which is the worst run capital Secretary. city in Australia in terms of traffic control, which has the greatest Mr. LOVEGROVE (Sunshine).-I muddles on practically every street support ·my colleague, the Deputy corner, and which has bottle-necks Leader of the Opposition, because, as surrounding the city at intervals of the Chief Secretary knows, both he not more than a quarter 'Of a mile, and I had an interest in the proba the development of road sense in tionary drivers' scheme. The honor drivers is essential. In addition, Mel abJe gentleman will recall that the bourne has the most under-equipped, Deputy Leader of the Opposition and most inadequately staffed, and the I on numerous occasions suggested worst run Police Force. to the Government that it should establish the principle of probationary Mr. MANSON (Minister of State drivers' licences and commercial Development).-On a point of order, licences. These suggestions were surely at this late stage in the debate graciously accepted after a respect the honorable member for Sunshine able interval of time and the system should relate his remarks to the of probationary licences and com amendment. mercial licences was introduced. The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Sir Ed The system of probationary gar Tanner).-Order! The point of licences was the most important be order is upheld. I ask the honorable cause it resided in the wide and con member for Sunshine to relate his re siderable experience of the Chief Sec marks to the amendment. retary and other responsible members Mr. LOVEGROVE (Sunshine).-In of the Government and became legis a city like Melbourne a driver needs lation with the consent and approval not ·only mechanical aptitude but also of the Police Force. It resided basic road sense, and both these qualities ally on two premises. The first was come only with experience and not that in learning to drive a motor car with intensive training, which takes the purely mechanical side of driving twelve months to acquire. took a certain length of time. This is despite the fact that at the same time Mr. MANSON.-This is nonsense. the Government, on the -initiative of Mr. LOVEGROVE.-The Minister the Chief Secretary, brought about of State Development, who is now in reforms in motor schools in Victoria charge of the Bill, says that I am M olor Car (Further [3 DF;CEMB,ER, 1968.] Amendment) Bill. 2527 speaking nonsense when I say that it Mr. WILCOX.-You are reflecting on takes twelve months for a person to the Police Force. acquire mechanical aptitude and road sense. I shall draw on the experience Mr. LOVEGROVE.-This is no re of the Police Force to support my flection on the Police Force. These are remarks. the numbers of vehicles involved in accidents since January of this year- Mr. MANSoN.-These qualities can Four hundred and forty-nine, a break-up be obtained on a simulator. of which is as follows :- No repairs required 50 Mr. LOVEGROVE.-I take it that Minor repairs costing less than the Minister of State Development is $40 98 talking of a television screen which Repairs costing between $40 and simulates road conditions. $200 221 Repairs costing more than $200 77 The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Sir Ed Damaged beyond economical re- gar Tanner).-Order! Certain honor pair and written off 3 able members have been carrying on private conversations for quite some Total: 449 time. There are lobbies in which these conversations may be undertaken. Mr. HAY'Es.-Were all of these Mr. LOVEGROVE.-The evidence vehicles driven by probationary that this Bill cannot be acquired in drivers? Melbourne on a simulator resides in Mr. LOVEGROVE.-No, and that is the statistics given by the Chief Sec why the Opposition is opposing this retary to the Deputy Leader of the amendment. Members of the 'Police Opposition on 19th November in Force in Melbourne have the most answer to a series of questions asked hazardous jobs in Australia and they by the honorable member. He asked- will need both our respect and sym What number of vehicles have been pur chased for use by the Victoria Police pathy if they are to be saddled with Force since January, 1968? this kind of legislation. The answer given to the Deputy Leader of the Op The ACTING CHAIRMAN.-Order! position in regard to the number of I ask the honorable member to relate his remarks to the amendment. police cars involved in accidents con tained the following further informa Mr. LOVEGROVE.-I want to ten tion :- der as evidence statistics relating to Three hundred and ninety-nine of the 449 the number of collisions and accidents police vehicles involved in accidents were in which police cars were involved in off the road and out of service for varying times as a result of the accidents in which 1968. The figures were supplied to the they were involved. In the case of those Deputy Leader of the Opposition in suffering only minor damage, the vehicles answer to a question he asked on were only off the road for a very brief 19th November and are reported at period while the repairs were actually being page 1772 of Hansard. The Deputy effected. Leader of the Opposition asked- What will be the legal position con How many police vehicles have been in fronting both the Government and the volved in accidents since January, 1968, and how many of these vehicles were off Police Department when a collision the road and out of service due to these occurs between a vehicle driven by accidents? a driver who is not a probationary I want to make it clear that this is no driver in the sense that the law reflection on the Police Force; it is a ordinarily provides and a vehicle reflection on the Government. I also whose driver is a probationary driver want to refute the allegation made by in the sense that the amendment pro the Chief Secretary that the Deputy poses? Obviously the amendment Leader of the Opposition was reflect will create a considerable field for ing on the Police Force. litigation and a fertile area for the 2528 Motor Car (Further [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment) Bill. legal profession to argue the point heed of the honorable member for that I am now putting to Parliament. Malvern, who earlier succeeded in What will be the position in the case having progress reported by support of a constable who has not had the ing the case put forward by the Op opportunity to receive proper train position. This is an indication of the ing before he is put in charge of a confusion and disruption which exist motor car. If I understand the Minis within the ranks of the Government, ter correctly, the honorable gentle which is gradually disintegrating man intends that such a person shall under bad leadership. receive superior training, and if he re ceives a qualifying certificate he will It is not only Opposition members not be a probationary driver. If, on who feel this way concerning the the one hand, on Sunday, a policeman dangers contained in this amend ment; it is apparent that the honor is wearing civilian clothes and driving able member for Malvern has his own car as a probationary driver similar feelings. The honorable and on Monday he is wearing police member pointed out with great uniform and driving a police car, he eloquence that on Monday a police is being given a special licence to do man could drive at any speed on the Monday all the things he is under any conditions, but on not permitted to do on Sunday. In Sunday, as a probationary driver this way, a false legal position is being in his own car and wearing civilian created. clothes, he would be limited to the If, as the Deputy Chief Secretary is ordinary speed restrictions. I appeal endeavouring to assert in support of to the Chief Secretary, on behalf of this amendment, it is true that a par the honorable member for Malvern, ticular member of the Police Force is who is a most responsible supporter so competent as a result of his train of the Government and, more im ing that he may drive through the portantly, a gentleman who has heart-breaking traffic of Melbourne at earned the respect of the Opposition over 70 miles an hour in pursuit of not only because of his political criminals in the most crime-ridden capacities but also through his pro city of Australia-- found legal knowledge, to further examine this amendment. The honor Honorable members interjecting. able gentleman should seek advice To those honorable members who from the best lawyers whom the say" knocker", I refer to the recently Liberal Party can provide. I am considered statement by the secretary referring not to honorable members of the Police Association in regard to with legal qualifications, but to per the inadequacy of the Police Force. sons who may be outside Parliament. Mr. MANSON (Minister of State The Opposition would like to know Development).-On a point of order, what would be the liability of the Mr. Acting Chairman, I suggest that policeman in the circumstances I have the honorable member for Sunshine outlined, and also the consequences should speak to the amendment be to the Police Department and to the fore the House. Government. The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Sir Mr. MANSON (Minister of State Edgar Tanner).-Order! The honor Development) .-The remarks of the able member for Sunshine will relate honorable member for Sunshine make his remarks to the amendment. me weep, but I can tell him now that Mr. LOVEGROVE (Sunshine).-I I have no intention of with am sorry, Sir, but the arguments drawing the amendment, which I considered convincing have Will be pursued to the bitter apparently not convinced the Minister. end. The amendment will be J therefore appeal to you, Sir, to take proceeded with in the form circulated. Fisheries [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2529 The Committee divided on Mr. FISHERIES BILL. Manson's amendment (Mr. L. S. Reid The debate (adjourned from in the chair)- September 25) on the motion of Mr. Ayes 47 Manson (Minister of State Develop Noes 16 ment) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed. Majority for the amendment 31 Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Sec retary) (By leave) .-1 wish to make AYES. a statement concerning this Bill Mr. Balfour Mr. Reid (Box Hill) Mr. Billing Mr. Ross-Edwards which, 1 feel, may shorten the debate Mr. Birrell Mr. Rossiter on it. 1 propose to foreshadow cer Sir Henry Bolte Sir Arthur Rylah tain amendments, which 1 shall move Mr. Borthwick Mr. Scanlan Mr. Buckley Mr. Smith (Hellarine) during the Committee stage. The first Mr. Darcy Mr. Smith amendment relates to clause 15. Mr. Dixon (Warrnambool) Mr. Evans Mr. Stephen Under this clause the fee for a master (Gippsland East) Mr. Suggett fisherman's licen('e is $25, plus an Mrs. Goble Mr. Tanner (Morwell) additional fee of $5 for each member Mr. Hayes Sir Edgar Tanner Mr. Jona Mr. Taylor of the crew authorized by the licence. Mr. Loxton Mr. Templeton The amendment 1 intend to propose Mr. MacDonald Mr. Tretheway in Committee will enable a person (Glen Iris) Mr. Trewin Sir William McDonald Mr. Vale who has been engaged in the Mr. McKellar Mr. Wheeler fishing industry as a commercial Mr. McLaren Mr. Whiting fisherman for a period of at least Mr. Manson Mr. Wilcox Mr. Meagher Mr. Wiltshire. fifteen years, and who is an old age Mr. Mitchell or invalid pensioner, or a totally and Mr. Moss Tellers: permanently incapacitated pensioner Mr. Phelan Mr. Porter Mr. Doyle under any Commonwealth Act, to Mr. Rafferty Mr. Evans obtain a master fisherman's licence Mr. Reese (Ballaarat North) at a concession fee of $10. The NOES. amendment will enable old and Mr. Clarey Mr. Sutton Mr. Divers Mr. Trezise incapacitated fishermen to retain their Mr. Edmunds Mr. Turnbull interest in the industry. Mr. Fennessy Mr. Wilkes Mr. Floyd Mr. Wilton. Clause 15 also sets down the fees Mr. Holding to be paid for various forms of com Dr. Jenkins Tellers: Mr. Lovegrove Mr. Ginifer mercial fishing licences. The fee Mr. Ring Mr. Mutton. provided in the Bill for a processor's PAIRS. licence is $100 for a trading society Sir John Bloomfield I Mr. Stoneham registered under the Co-operation Act Mr. Stokes Sir Herbert Hyland. 1958 to promote the interests of The clause, as amended, was fishermen and carrying on business adopted, as were the remaining as such and, in any other case, $250. clauses. While a fee of $250 is appropriate to The Bill was reported to the House large processors, it is felt that a fee with amendments, and passed of this magnitude would be oppres through its remaining stages. sive to some of the smaller organiza tions which are apparently carrying MELBOURNE AND METROPOLITAN on a successful processing business. BOARD OF WORKS (AMENDMENT) BILL. The amendment which 1 propose to move in Committee provides the This Bill was received from the following graduated scale of fees:- Council and, on the motion of Mr. PORTER (Minister of Public Works) , (a) in the case of a co-operative, was read a first time. $100 ; 2530 Fisheries [ASSEMBLY.] Bill. (b) in the case of a partnership, addition, the Board through its ser a fee calculated at the rate vants and agents, removes vermin and of $25 for each partner but noxious weeds from Crown lands. not exceeding- The Director of Fisheries and Wildlife (i) $100 where each of the has informed me that there are some partners is the holder herbicides' and many pesticides which of a master fisherman's are toxic to fish, even in minute licence; and quantities. It is reasonable therefore (ii) $250 for all others, to expect persons using these sub stances to act in a responsible (c) in the case of an individual, manner. $50; and (d) in any other case, $250. I intend to move two amendments Clause 25 requires any person who to clause 63. The first amendment forms or creates a fish habitat for will provide an exemption from the clams, oysters, mussels and certain provisions of the clause for the Ver other specified species of fish on any min and Noxious Weeds Destruction shore up to high-water mark or on Board, its servants or agents in any land adjacent to such shore, or respect to the use of poisons for on any land in Victorian waters, to' eradica tion of vermin and noxious obtain a fish culture permit. weeds from Crown lands where those poisons are used in accordance with The purpose of the amendment specifications previously furnished in which I shall propose in Committee writing by the Department to the provides a statutory requirement that Director of. Fisheries and Wildlife. before the Chief Secretary can issue This exemption is similar to the a fish culture permit with respect to exemption already provided in the Crown land adjacent to a shore or Bill for the State Rivers and Water with respect to any Crown land in Supply Commission in respect to the Victorian waters, the applicant for use of poisons for clearing or the permit must first obtain the con maintaining channels and drains. sent in writing O'f the Minister of Lands. The second amendment will provide a statutory defence to any charge of Clause 63 makes it an offence for putting or discharging into waters any person directly or indirectly to containing fish any prescribed poison put or discharge into waters con taining fish any poison prescribed for or substance likely to render those the purpose of the section or any waters poisonous or injurious to fish rna tter or thing which is likely to if the defendant has acted with render waters poisonous or injurious reasonable precaution. The amend to fish or to the spawning grounds, ment provides that it shall be a de spawn or food of fish. Under the fence in any proceedings for offences provisions of the Vermin and Noxious against sub-clause (1) of clause 63, Weeds Act 1958, the owner or if the defendant proves that, having occupier of land is required upon taken all reasonable precautions notice from an inspector effectually against committing an offence, he had to destroy and suppress all noxious at the time no reason to suspect that weeds growing or being upon the he had committed an offence or that land. The penalty for failing to do the offence arose from causes beyond so is an amount not exceeding $100. his control and that in either case he I am infO'rmed that the Vermin and had otherwise acted innocently. The Noxious Weeds Destruction Board defendant is also required to give recommends various poisons for certain information to the police or noxious weed control and issues an inspector of fisheries when pro instructions to landholders in the perly called upon and to give notice proper use of these substances. In to the informant not less than seven Sir Arthur Rylah. Fisheries [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2531 days before the proceedings that he the Government to taking into its intends to avail himself of the confidence organizations such as the protection afforded by sub-clause (1). Piscatorial Council of Victoria, whose I intend to propose the omission members, particularly the officers, of sub-clause (7) of clause 81 which have a considerable knowledge of seeks to provide that regulations fisheries in Victoria. They have had made under the Fisheries Act 1968 long association on the amateur shall have effect notwithstanding any angling side of fisheries, and I believe thing to the contrary in any other the Government could find within the regulation, by-law, proclamation or ranks of that organization many suit order made under the provisions of able persons who would be well quali any other Act. It is now believed that fied to act in this capacity if the any differences of opinion in relation Government intends to persist with to any regulations, by-laws, pro the idea of appointing honorary clamations and so on can be ade inspectors. quately adjusted by consultation be Sir ARTHUR RYLAH.-The answer is tween Departments and that such an a simple " yes". overriding provision is not required. The remaining amendments which Mr. WILTON.-I am pleased to re will be proposed in Committee are to ceive that information. Part II. of the correct typographical or drafting Bill deals with the Commercial errors and are of no real consequence. Fisheries Council. Under clause 11 it Two amendments have been sub is proposed to establish a council, mitted to me by the honorable mem the purpose of which is to act in the ber for Broadmeadows who is interests of fisheries, particularly handling this Bill for the Opposition. commercial fisheries. The commercial In my most generous mood, I will fishermen will have a representative accept the first amendment, and I on this council. Honorable members shall have a further look at the will recall that, in 1967, the House second amendment before the clauses dealt with an amendment to the are dealt with in Committee. I have Fisheries Act. On that occasion I taken this unusual course, with the submitted that commercial fishermen leave of the House, to simplify the should have the right to elect one debate and to assist honorable mem of their own members as their re bers. I suggest that at this stage presentative on the council. The the amendments proposed to be Minister then indicated that he would moved by myself and the honorable consider the suggestion. However, member for Broadmeadows should be this Bill does not contain such a pro circulated. posal. The Government is following the past practice of the representative The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-The House may grant of the commercial fishermen being leave for this to be done. Circulation appointed by the Governor in Council. may proceed. Commercial fishermen have rightly Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows). pointed out that this is a complex in This is an extensive Bill, which re dustry composed of various types of peals the Fisheries Act 1958. The fisheries. The different sections of Act has been redrafted. The Bill in commercial fisheries do not neces corporates many of the provisions of sarily have common interests which the principal Act, with some addi would make it practical for one per tions. Clause 6 relates to the appoint son to represent the whole of the ment of suitable persons under the commercial fishing industry. It has age of 65 years as honorary inspectors been argued by commercial fishermen of fisheries. I ask the Chief Secretary that a cray fisherman, for instance, whether, in implementing this pro would not necessarily be aware of all vision, consideration will be given by the problems that other commercial 2532 Fisheries [ASSEMBLY.] Bill. fishermen experience in the pursuit of Minister of State Development stated their livelihood. This is a reason that it was proposed to increase the able request. This principle has been fee for amateur fishing licences to $4. followed in relation to other bodies He was kind enough to inform me by whereby primary producers have re letter that this was an error and that presentation on marketing boards, it is 'intended to retain the present and so on; the people concerned licence fee of $2. His original state have the right to elect their own ment caused some consternation representative. amongst the members of the Pisca torial Council. Sub-clause (2) of The Government has come part of clause 23 states- the way towards recognizing com The provisions of sub-section (1) shall mercial fishermen as primary pro not apply to any person of or under the age ducers. Only this evening the House of sixteen years or to the holder of a master dealt with an amendment to the fisherman's licence. Motor Car Act. Included in that Bill I believe that a person remains at was a provision which extends to sixteen years of age until midnight commercial fishermen the right to on his seventeenth birthday. Does register motor vehicles on the same this sub-clause mean that a person conditions as apply to primary pro does not have to take out a licence ducers. I believe commercial fisher until he has reached his seventeenth men will be pleased to receive this birthday? I have made many inquiries concession. I ask the Government to on this subject, and the Piscatorial reconsider the question of representa Council would be grateful to' the Chief tion of commercial fishermen on the Secretary if he would clarify this Commercial Fisheries Council. point because it does not want to mislead its members. Another important provision in the Bill relates to the licenSing of pro Clause 25 relates to fish culture. I cessors. Again, when the Act was foreshadow an Opposition amend amended last year, I pointed out that, ment, which the Chief Secretary has in the interests of fisheries, processing indicated the Government will accept, companies should be prepared to to provide that a licence for fish culture shall not be granted unless make some contribution towards the the Minister is satisfied that the appli finances used to advance and promote cant has published no.tice of his the fishing industry. It is in their intention to make application for the interests that the fishing industry licence in the prescribed form in some should become stabilized; in the long newspaper circulating generally in run, they will benefit from any ad Victoria not less than 28 days before vancements made in the industry the lodging of the application, and as a result of scientific research. that any persons lodging objection to It is reasonable to license these the granting of the licence have a organizations to ensure a contribution reasonable O'pportunity of being to the fund. It will also strengthen heard. The amendment is reasonable the hand of the authority responsible because a person in the community for supervising the industry. The fact may wish to lodge an objection to that a licence can be cancelled for the granting of a fish culture licence, a misdemeanor is a deterrent to mis and if the objection is sufficiently behaviour. The provision of a licence sound, he may have the opportunity for taking shark is also reasonable. of persuading the authority not to I was somewhat puzzled by the issue the licence. I am concerned at word" bets "appearing in clause 17. sub-clause (2) of clause 49 which The Chief Secretary has clarified the states- position by foreshadowing an amend The provisions of sub-section (1) extend ment to co.rrect a misspelling-it to any case where a person is found behav ing or conducting himself in such a manner should be "nets". In his second or under such circumstances that the reading explanatory speech, the inspector or member finding him believes Mr. Wilton. Fisheries [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2533 on reasonable grounds, without having our fears to' some extent. The pro observed the commission of an offence visions of this clause relate to the against this Act or the regulations, that the discharge of any substance that may person found has committed such an offence. poison or pollute waters containing fish. In certain circumstances a per It could be argued at length what con son operating under the directions of stitutes " on reasonable grounds". A an officer of the Vermin and Noxious citizen could be placed in the position Weeds Destruction Board could dis of having to prove his innocence charge a substance into waters con rather than the informant proving his taining fish and so be liable to prose guilt. This is contrary to British cution under the legislation in its justice, and no citizen should be present form. However, the Chief Sec placed in that position. Clause 55 retary has indicated that he proposes relates to unauthorized tagging and to move an amendment to remedy this provides- situation. Any person who marks tags or brands in any manner whatsoever any fish without Members of the Labor Party have the authority in writing of the Director shall serious objections to clauses 74 and be guilty of an offence against this Act. 75. Clause 74 provides- The Opposition foreshadows an Where any person is charged with taking amendment to this clause, which the fish for sale contrary to the provisions of Chief Secretary has indicated he will this Act or the regulations the burden of proving that the fish were not intended accept. Honorable members who have for sale shall be upon the person charged. joined fishing parties will know that fishermen have adopted the That is a clear indication that a per practice of marking the fish they son charged with an offence under keep in captivity in their nets this provision has to prove his inno until they return home. These cence rather than that the informant fishermen could face prosecution. has to prove that he is gUilty. This is I am also informed by the Piscatorial in direct contrast to what has become Council that during its competitions the accepted practice throughout the fish are deliberately marked by the English-speaking world. Members of stewards to prevent them from being my party intend t'O oppose both submitted more than once at the clauses 74 and 75. official weigh-in. Under the provisions Clause 75 deals with fish taken of this clause a person could be prose from Victorian waters and places the cuted for marking fish under such onus on the defendant to prove that circumstances. The amendment I pro the fish were not taken from Victorian pose to submit is as follows-- waters. The practice 'Of the informant The SPEAKER ,(the Hon. Vernon proving guilt has stood the test of Christie).-Order! The honorable time for hundreds 'Of years under member is in order in discussing what is commonly termed British this but would it not be better to justice. The proposals in these clauses debate the clauses in detail during the represent a serious departure from Committee stage? this principle and should be strenu Dusly opposed by all honorable mem Mr. WILTON.-I appreciate your bers who believe in upholding the advice and guidance, Mr. Speaker, and principles of British justice. I shall deal with the clauses in detail in Committee. The Government has introduced this principle into this legislation The SPEAKER.-The second-read but it may not be the end of th~ ing debate is more suitable for a dis matter. If it is successful on this oc cussion of the general aspects of the casion the Government may decide to Bill. embody the same principle into other Mr. WILTON.-I shall not pursue legislation. Members of the Opposi the point at this stage. The Chief Sec ti~n ~iI1 not lend their support to this retary has foreshadowed an amend prmcIple. and I do not think any ment to clause 63 and this has allayed other honorable member should 2534 Fisheries [ASSEMBLY. ] 'Bill: support it. I ask the Chief Sec who require finance for various retary to give consideration to the things and the same facilities ought deletion of these two clauses because to be extended to commercial fisher it would be dangerous for the Govern men. ment to persist with its policy in this regard. I hope the Government will give this matter serious consideration be Members of the Opposition support cause commercial fishing is a hazar the Bill in principle because we be dous job. The fishermen are at the lieve it will make a contribution to mercy of the elements and, whilst the fishing industry by assisting the they take all the protective measures authorities charged with the responsi within their capabilities, situations bility of administering the industry to continually arise over which they stabilize it. The industry has been have no control and which can cause suffering under adverse conditions serious damage to their boats and gear. for many years, and many problems The cost of maintaining equipment are facing fishermen. A great deal of can be expensive, and if it is neces hard work will be required to bring sary for the fishermen to approach the industry to the stage we would private banks or lending institutions all like it to attain. for finance, they are subject to high rates of interest, which add to their In view of the fact that the Govern financial problems. If the Rural ment has gone part of the way in Finance and Settlement Commission recognizing fishermen as primary pro were permitted to assist them, finance ducers, it ought to be prepared to go would be available at a much lower further and assist commercial fisher men financially. This could be done rate of interest and would benefit the through the Rural Finance and Settle industry as a whole. Apart from the ment Comm,ission. Commercial fisher clauses to which I have referred, the men would be considerably assisted Opposition supports the Bill. if they could obtain finance from the Mr. B. J. EVANS (Gippsland fishermen to carry out maintenance East) .-This Bill amends and re-enacts on their boats and their fishing gear. the law relating to fisheries and as The State Development Committee such it opens up the whole field of dealt with this matter at page 47 of amateur and commercial fishing, its 1960 report. Under the heading which is very extensive. As the time "Finance of fishing gear, fishing boats is approaching 1.30 a.m., it is a little and equipment" it stated- difficult to deal adequately with the The committee considers that the policy of the Rural Finance Corporation- ramifications of the measure. That is now the Rural Finance and As has been mentioned by the Settlement Commission- honorable member for Broad should be altered so that the financial ac meadows, the fishing industry is commodation is available to fishermen to wards the cost and improvement of boats, recognized as a primary industry, equipment and fishing gear when reasonable although it enjoys fewer benefits in security is available to cover such financial the way of recognition and assist accommodation, ance from Government sources than does any other primary industry. After an extensive inquiry the com One of the greatest drawbacks to mittee was sufficiently influenced in the development of the industry in 1960 to make that recommendation to this part of the world is the virtual the Government, and I support it be cause it would be a worth-while con absence 'of protection from imported tribution to this industry. The Gov fish. The protection amounts to only ernment ought to adopt this recom a fraction of a cent per pound, which mendation. The facilities of the Rural makes it difficult for the local in Finance and Settlement Commission dustry to compete with the imported are used by other primary producers product. Mr, Wilton. Fisheries [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2535 Most of the equipment used by is suitable and the general method fishermen is purchased from people will lend itself to operations of the who are enjoying a high tariff pro Lakes Entrance fishing fleet. tection for the production of the equipment. This makes it difficult for It has been submitted that the the industry to grow in the way it research and development fund ought to be growing and no doubt established under the Act could be is capable of growing. According applied to enable a fisherman to to the Victorian Fishermen's Co carry out experiments and, if they operative Society, approximately prove to be satisfactory, for the $34,000,000 worth of fish is imported fisherman to purchase the equipment into Australia annually. required. Other fishermen could then proceed with the purchase on the Mr. TURNBULL.-From where is it basis of the experience of the fisher imported? man carrying out the exercise. It Mr. B. J. EVANS.-It comes from would be a fair proposition for the many parts of the world. I think a Government to use some of the funds good deal comes from New Zealand that are being provided ff-om licence and a certain amount from the Scan fees to enable a fisherman to under dinavian and European countries. The take the research without his bearing local industry is entitled to receive the heavy cost involved if the equip the same protection as other indus ment did not prove as satisfactory as tries. Whilst I appreciate that this the fishermen believe it would be. does not relate directly to the Bill, The research would be undertaken by there is no doubt that it has a great one fisherman on behalf of others in effect on the development of the the industry. I advance that proposi industry which this Bill, in part, is tion for the Government's considera designed to bring about. tion. Fishermen at Lakes Entrance in I acknowledge the point made by particular are in terested in the you, Mr. Speaker, that this Bill can development of otter trawling, best be dealt with in Committee and which is apparently more effective I envisage that I will speak on a than the Danish seine trawling that number of the clauses. The amend is in use at present. I do not know ments foreshadowed by the Chief whether honorable members are par Secretary will remove some of my ticularly interested in the difference party's principal objections to certain between the two but, stating it briefly, clauses. I do not think there are any Danish seine trawling involves the substantial differences regarding the placing of a net and the circuiting of remaining clauses in the Bill, and a school of fish in an endeavour to therefore there is little point in trap it in a net which is then hauled elaborating in too much detail at this aboard the vessel, whilst with otter stage. trawling the net is operating con tinuously whilst . the vessel is in However, I note that, in contrast motion, and the net is hauled behind with the Act that is being repealed the vessel instead of being strung by this measure, instead of prescrib out and hauled back in again. This ing minimum and maximum penalties, system is claimed to be much more the Bill proposes only specified efficient than the method currently in penalties in almost every case. Whilst use. I appreciate that there is possibly Although the Lakes Entrance some connexion with the Acts Inter fishermen believe this is a much more pretation Act, I should like to know effective system, they are not in a why this difference applies. People position to investigate it unless who have examined the provisions an individual fisherman is pre of an old Act, where the penalty has pared to go to the great expense of been, perhaps, a minimum of $4 and ascertaining whether the ocean floor a maximum of $100 have then found 2536 Fisheries [ASSEMBLY.] Bill. a clause in a subsequent Bill provid I am not an angler, but I have had ing for a fixed penalty of perhaps sufficient experience to appreciate the $200, and they have asked why this desirability of short-term licences. should be so. I realize that there is On a couple of occasions, I have pur probably an explanation for this, but chased an angler's licence for only I should like the Chief Secretary to one fishing trip. Provision should be clarify the position so that I can made in the Bill to meet the demands explain the reason to these people. of families whose children want to Another point on which I should like spend a short time during their holi information relates to reciprocity be days trying out their hands as anglers. tween States in regard to commercial This should not involve a serious ad fishing licences. I raise the matter ministrative problem. I appreciate now so that the Chief Secretary may that there is no necessity for a licence obtain the information before clause for ocean angling. I commend my 18 is discussed in Committee. suggestion, which applies to inland There is a good deal of concern waters, to the Government for ex among fishermen on the question of amination. reciprocity, particularly between Vic Sir ARTHUR RYLAH.-Are you ad toria and Tasmania. I understand vocating a salt water licence? that the reciprocal rights which have been granted by Victoria to Tasman Mr. B. J. EVANS.-No. I am seek ian fishermen operating in our wat ing provision for a short-term licence ers are not being returned by the Tas costing, say, 50 cents, to allow a man manian Government. I should like to fish for one month, rather than him the situation to be clarified. I fully being required to pay $2 for a licence agree with the principle of reciproc which he will require only for his ity between the States, but it should annual holidays. I have seen New not operate in a one-sided fashion. South Wales fishing licences for sale I also wish to raise a point con in bait shops and sports stores in this cerning the issue of anglers' licences, State. Apparently that State has a in which I have a personal interest. system of this kind in operation. It There is a sound argument for some would be well worth examining. In system of issuing short-term anglers' most cases, my proposal would en licences; for example, a licence or courage people to obey the law rather permit could be issued for a fee of, than to take the risk of not obtaining say, 50 cents enabling an angler to a licence for one day. Any law which fish for a period of one month. Many encourages people to take a risk in individuals-we could not reasonably that way is not a good law. If a call them anglers-spend their an licence or permit were readily avail nual holidays at a seaside resort with able at a lower fee, it would increase their families, and the children are the amount of revenue available to anxious to go fishing. The father the funds to which these fees are accompanies them, but under the pro allocated. It should be relatively visions of the Bill if inspectors find simple to devise a suitable system. fish in his car which the children have I do not wish to refer to any other caught, the father has to prove that points at this stage, but I shall raise he did not catch them. There must some further questions in Committee. be hundreds of people in this cate I hope the Chief Secretary will give gory and it should not be difficult to consideration to the points I have al introduce a system whereby people ready mentioned because they have who retail bait are provided with a the support of the fishing industry book of duplicate permits which can and, if implemented, could greatly en be stamped with a date granting a courage the industry in this State. short-term licence to an applicant. The bait shop could supply a licence Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds). or permit to enable a person to angle This Bill contains 81 clauses, and for a period of, say, one month. completely modernizes the Fisheries Mr. B. J. Evans. Fisheries [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2537 Act. Much of the Bill deals with pro been put forward for many years by fessional fishermen, but many of its angling clubs and which I support. I provisions relate to amateur fisher desire to have something to say con men. Societies such as the Essendon cerning the amendments which have Fish Protection Society and the An been circulated. Unfortunately, how glers' Club are vitally concerned with ever, a Bill such as this contains so such provisions. Clubs of this type many clauses that honorable members have been long established and over are not able to develop some of their the years their activities have been arguments to the extent that they beneficial to the community. Their would wish. I should like to ask ideas for the protection of fish and questions of the Chief Secretary in the development of angling within a respect of many clauses contained in small community have been import this measure, but I feel that at this ant to public interests. I regret that late hour it would not be within his the Bill is being debated at such a late capacity to furnish the answers. hour, because it will be difficult to Mr. MUTTON (Coburg).-When elaborate on some of the points I this Bill was introduced, I gained the wish to make. impression that its purpose was to The members of the club which I serve both commercial and sporting mentioned are strong supporters of sides of the fishing industry. Un legislation that is designed to develop fortunately, however, prior to the Bill and improve conditions for anglers being debated in the House, honor generally throughout the State. Many able members received a letter from provisions in the Bill, deal directly the Chief Secretary stating that while with the development of amateur it has been proposed to increase the angling. For instance, clause 22 pro inland angling licence fee from $2 to poses a reduced fee for aged and in $4, that proposal had been made in valid pensioners, and totally and per the mistaken belief that the Aus manently incapacitated pensioners. tralian Piscatorial Council supported This is whole-heartedly supported by such an increase. The letter stated fishing and angling clubs. The set that the council was now expressing ting aside of children's fishing re opposition to the proposed increase serves, as provided in clause 79, is an and, in view of that, the proposed excellent idea which was introduced amendment was to be withdrawn. As early this year in an area of the Ed a result, the House can deal only wardes Lake. This project has been a wi th the commercial side of the huge success so far as the Fisheries industry. and Wildlife Branch is concerned. I relate my remarks wholly and This encourages amateur angling, solely to the provisions of the Bill which, as a recreational activity, is which apply to the fresh water or of benefit to the community. Other inland angler. I had been informed points that I wish to raise in respect by the Chief Secretary that the pro of reciprocity are vital, and I think posal to increase the inland angling they would be best dealt with when licence fee from $2 to $4 was sup the House is considering the clauses ported by the Victorian Piscatorial of the Bill. I am of the opinion that Council because it would provide anything which will encourage additional funds to the Fisheries and amateur anglers to enjoy this fine Wildlife Branch and improve inland sport at an early age is deserving of fishing, but subsequently I received support. a letter from the council which expressed completely opposite views. As the Leader of the Opposition Paragraph (c) of that letter reads as and the Deputy Leader of the Country follows:- Party have said, many provisions con The Government's failure to implement the recommendation of the Victorian tained in this Bill are designed to Piscatorial Council for the introduction of a implement suggestions which have General Amateur Angling Licence at a fee 2538 Fisheries [ASSEMBLY.] Bill. of $2.00 for inland estuary and salt water. it could be equally successful with Salt water problems and research work fish such as black fish which are entails the Fisheries and Wildlife Depart ment in equal work with fresh water indigenous to the State of Victoria. (inland), and therefore a licence for salt water is but fair to all. I believe that if the licence fee was amended and a general angling The council advocated not an in licence issued to cover all anglers creased fee for an amateur angling throughout the State, including salt licence but an over-all, general licence water, estuary and fresh water fish which would apply to both salt water ing, the added revenue received and fresh water anglers. could be applied to the Snobs Creek I have studied the relevant figures hatchery and other hatcheries which and have found that when the inland could be established and developed. angling licence fee was last increased In addition, the policing of waters the number of licences issued de such as estuaries, the Gippsland creased. In 1965-66, 100,721 inland Lakes and Port Phillip Bay by licences were taken out at $1 each, inspectors of the Fisheries and and in 1967 -68 only 75,890 were Wildlife Branch are costly. There taken out because the licence fee had fore, they are getting away scot been increased to $2. From that it free without making any contri can be assumed that when licence bution to the industry but enjoying fees are increased, the number of all the benefits that fishing can pro licences and the amount of revenue vide. Encouragement should be given received by the Government will be to people who enjoy some form of reduced. It is apparent that the Chief relaxation from the hurley-burley Secretary was aware that if he pur and rapid tempo of modern life. sued his objective of increasing inland angling licence fees there would be The honorable member for Moonee a further reduction of revenue. Ponds expressed the view that in addition to considering the needs of The reason for my concern is that adult anglers and commercial fisher I consider angling to be a major men, the Government should also industry with many supporting trades. consider the younger generation. The The tourist trade, for example, has Bill will enable the Minister to pro greatly developed. As can be seen vide assistance in local areas, where at Lake Eildon, the boating industry junior anglers will be able to partici and the fishing equipment industry pate in fishing. If the honorable have expanded a great deal, and this gentleman intends to act along these has provided avenues of employment. lines, he must consider the type of The House is considering an im water in which children will be per provement to the commercial side of mitted to fish. Edwardes Lake and the fishing industry, but I suggest the Coburg Lake in my electorate that very strong consideration should were both formed on local streams. be given to methods of increasing the Some years ago, these lakes abounded popularity of the sporting side of the with fish but, as a result of pollution industry. In his second-reading ex from nearby factories, all types of planatory speech, the Minister stated aquatic life and fish life have been that the Snobs Creek hatchery was destroyed. The Bill also empowers one of the State's greatest tourist the Minister to take action to control attractions. Of course, even though pollution. Before the Minister will the hatchery is doing a wonderful job, be able to assist junior anglers to there is much room for improvement. participate in fishing for recreational If more finance were made available purposes in lakes that have been to the Fisheries and Wildlife Branch, formed on natural streams, it will the activities of that hatchery be necessary to impose some form could be expanded 100 times. The of control over pollution, which can hatchery has been successful in the destroy fish life within a matter of product'ion of trout ova and fry, and weeks. I\.fr. M[ltton. ·Fisheries Bill. [3 DECEMBER, 1968.] Adjournment. 2539 From information supplied by the The Bill was read a second time Fisheries and Wildlife Branch, I and committed, pro- forma. understand that about 3,000 trout The House went into Committee were released in Edwardes Lake but, of Ways and Means. owing to pollution, they survived for only two and a half months. This Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Sec indicates the severe type of trade retary) .-1 move - That under and in accordance with the waste or effluent that is being re Fisheries Bill there shall be charged and leased into many of our lakes which, paid for the use of Her Majesty her heirs although man-made, are picturesque and successors the fees set forth hereunder, and provide many ·attractions for local namely:- For the issue of an amateur fishing people. They could serve in an added licence- sense by providing sporting recre (a) to any person who satisfies the issu ation for the younger generation. ing officer that he is an old age or invalid pensioner under the Commonwealth Act for In 1963, the backbone of the fishing the time being in force relating to social industry in Tasmania was the pro services or is a totally and permanently duction of scallops, but the scallop incapacitated pensioner under the Common wealth Act for the time being in force fields of that State have now been relating to the repatriation of discharged completely fished out. Many fisher servicemen-$0.50 per annum; and men from Tasmania turned their eyes (b) by any person not referred to in to Victoria because they had been paragraph (a)-$2.00 per annum. For the issue of an amateur hoop-net told that there were fruitful grounds licence-$4.00 per annum. in Port Phillip Bay from which For the issue of an amateur netting licence scallops could be harvested at great -$4.00 per annum. profit. As a result, during the past For the issue of a fish culture permit two years, about 170 fishing boats $200.00 per annum. For registration of a commercial fish farm congregated in Port Phillip Bay with -$5.00. the intention of harvesting scallops. In his second-reading explanatory The motion was agreed to, and the speech, the Minister stated that 170 resolution was reported to the House fishing boats were too many to work and adopted. in the Bay. Last year, there was a The House went into Committee for record harvest of scallops but, already the consideration of the Bill. this year, there has been a substantial Clause 1 was agreed to. decrease in this regard. Unfortunate Progress was reported. ly, scallops can be harvested success fully only during the spawning season ADJOURNMENT. from April to May. Probably, it is due to this factor that the harvesting NATURAL GAS: BLOW-OUT AT MARLIN of scallops will ultimately destroy the FIELD-ADDRESS-IN-REPLY: PRE- scallop beds. Obviously, if scallops SENTATION TO GOVERNOR. are taken during the spawning season. Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Sec they will have no opportunity of retary) .-1 move- continuing in their breeding capacity. That the House, at its rising, adjourn until this day, at half-past Ten o'clock. I hope that if the ambit of inland In moving this motion, Mr. Speaker, angling licences for amateurs is it is proposed that you, Sir, will take broadened, the licences will cover all the chair at 11 a.m. or as near aspects of fishing, including fishing thereto as possible having regard to in salt water, fresh water, estuaries your commitment in relation to the and such like. I ask the Chief Sec presentation to His Excellency the retary to consider amending the legis Governor of the Address-in-Reply. lation to encourage more people to The motion was agreed to. participate in fishing as a form of recreation. Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Sec retary) .-1 move- The motion was agreed to. That the House do now adjourn. 2540 Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Adjournment. Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds). prepared for where gas and oil fields I wish to raise a matter which I con are concerned. So far as I am aware, sider to be urgent Government busi on Monday afternoon at about 4 p.m. ness and which should be of concern or 5 p.m. gas appeared to be coming to the Government because of its urg out of the sea, and the 50-odd per ency. The major calamity of the sonnel who were on the Marlin plat blow-out of natural gas off the coast form were evacuated. Six men re of Victoria constitutes a hazard. The mained on the platform, but on Tues Government should make some posi day morning or late Monday evening tive statement to the public of Vic these men were taken off. On Tues toria because of the seriousness of day morning observations were made this situation. As I understand from of the platform by helicopter. Mr. yesterday's newspaper report, the Jim Le Page, one of the senior officers blow-out of natural gas is uncontrol of the Mines Department, was sent lable until an American technical ex down there to make observations and pert arrives here in a couple of days' report back to the Department. time and attempts to control it. A I understand that Esso-BHP has director of Esso-BHP informed a arranged for experts to be flown out Senate committee yesterday that the from America, and I assume they will dangers are so great that he is unable be here later today. In the mean to predict what will be the outcome time, a barge is being loaded at Barry because this is an unknown area so Beach with cement and mud which far as their experience goes. will be taken out to the Marlin struc I wish to learn from the Govern ture and should arrive in the early ment whether the Minister for Fuel hours of Wednesday. The object is and Power will report to the House to have this material on hand so that on this disaster. What are the it may be pumped into the well, or dangers to mariners and other wells, which may have sprung a leak. people such as fishermen who are I believe it was originally assumed in Bass Strait on their normal that Marlin A.7-a well in which a business? What are the hazards in casing was being run in-was the well volved in attempting to control this that had sprung the leak. It was not escaping gas? Will the Marlin sea known whether the blow-out preven platform collapse into the sea? A ter had failed; whether the gas was further point which should be ex coming from in between the casing plained is how this will affect the -which had been run to about 1,100 Government's agreement with Esso feet-and the drill hole; or whether BHP? Does the agreement contain one of the other wells might have any clause which provides for this sprung a leak. Those matters have type of disaster? I realize that nat yet to be evaluated. I can assure the ural gas will be supplied from the House that the Government, the Barracouta area and that the Marlin Mines Department and Esso-BHP are well is not supposed to come into concerned about this matter and, with operation until early next year. How all the technical knowledge available, ever, I believe it is important, par everything will be done to ensure that ticularly to members of this House, this gas leak is stopped as quickly as for the Minister in charge of this nat possible. ural resource and its supply to the The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Melbourne area to make a positive Christie).-I remind honorable mem stat~ment in relation to this disaster. mers that, in regard to the pre Mr. BALFOUR (Minister for Fuel sentation of the Address-in-Reply and Power).-The Government and to His Excellency the Governor, cars the Mines Department are fully aware will leave Parliament House at 9.50 of what is going on in Bass Strait. a.m. this morning. It is regretted that this blow-out of gas has occurred, although I presume The motion was agreed to. it is something which anyone must be The House adjourned at 2.12 a.m. Education Department. [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Lakes Entrance. 2541 and lunch rooms-(i) what proposals is he iIlt gi.alatiut Q!uuntil. recommending; and (ii) when can it be expected that such teacher aides will be Wednesday, December 4, 1968. appointed? The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Education).-The answer The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. is- Garrett) took the chair at 11.22 a.m., Such proposals have been considered, but and read the prayer. we have no definite plans for expansion at this stage apart from increasing the number LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR'S of laboratory assistants as finance permits. SPEECH. WARRNAMBOOL TECHNICAL COLLEGE: PRESENTATION OF ADDRESS-IN-REPLY. SUBMISSION FOR COMMONWEALTH The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. GRANT. Garrett).-I have the honour to The Hon. C. A. MITCHELL report that this day, accompanied by (Western Province) asked the Min honorable members, I waited upon His ister of Education- Excellency the Governor and pre Has a submission on behalf of the Warr sented to him the Address of the nambool Technical College been made for Legislative Council, adopted on the a Commonwealth advanced education grant; 12th November last, in reply to His if so, when will the Commonwealth advanced grant and matched State grant for the Excellency the Lieutenant-Governor's 1970-72 triennium be determined? Speech on the opening of Parliament. His Excellency was pleased to make The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON the following reply:- (Minister of Education).-The answer is- MR. PRESIDENT AND HoNORABLE MEMBERS OF THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. No submissions from Victoria have been forwarded to the Commonwealth yet. It In the name and on behalf of Her Majesty is expected this will be done soon and the Queen I thank you for your expressions Warrnambool Technical College will be of loyalty to our Most Gracious Sovereign included. contained in the Address you have just presented to me. I fully rely on your wisdom in deliberat LAKES ENTRANCE. ing upon the important measures to be SAND BAR PROBLEM. brought under your consideration, and I earnestly hope that the results of your The Hon. R. W. MAY (Gippsland labours will be conducive to the advance Province) asked the Minister of Agri ment and prosperity of this State. culture- I add my personal thanks to honorable (a) Following the answer to question No. 7 asked in this House on the 27th Novem members for the excellent attendance ber last, which stated that an extensive at the presentation of the Address-in~ model study of the entrance at Lakes En Reply this morning. trance has been undertaken, when and where can the model be inspected? MOTOR CAR (FURTHER (b) When will the feasibility survey re AMENDMENT) BILL. ferred to in part (c) (v) and (vi) of the answer be completed and when is it antici This Bill was received from the pated that the contract will be called for Assembly and, on the motion of the dredging? Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER of Education), was read a first time. (Minister of Agriculture) .-The answers are- EDUCATION DEPARTMENT. (a) The model study, which was under EMPLOYMENT OF TEACHER AIDES. taken in space loaned by the State Rivers The Hon. I. R. CATHIE (South and Water Supply Commission at its Werri bee laboratory, 'has been completed and the Eastern Province) asked the Minister model itself has been dismantled. of Education- (b) It is anticipated that some three In view of his answer to question No.2 months will be required to complete the asked in this house on the 9th April, 1968, economic feasibility study of the conversion that consideration has been given to the of the departmental dredge Pioneer. employment of teacher aides to work in The possibility of contract dredging of the libraries, audio-visual centres, class-rooms bar has not yet been determined. 2542 Public Works Department. [COUNCIL.] Country Roads Board., PUBLIC WORKS DEPARTMENT. (b) Were these proposals agreed to by the shires present at the meeting, naming ST. ARNAUD COURT HOUSE: PROVISION the shires involved? OF TOILET FACILITIES. (c) Are these proposals to be incorpor The Hon. M. A. C~ARKE (Northern ated in the proposed legislation setting up Province) asked the Minister of Agri the authority? culture- The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister (a) Is the Public Works Department in for Local Government) .-The capable of resolving the deadlock between answers are- the Law Department, the Police Department, and the Forests Commission regarding pay (a) and (b) The Shire of Flinders called ment for adequate toilet facilities, including a meeting at Dromana on 17th January, town sewerage, at the St. Arnaud court 1968, which the chairman of the Town and house? Country Planning Board was invited to address. No proposals requiring the meet (b) In view of the fact that provision of ing's approval or adoption were presented, new toilets and connexion to the sewerage the address being an outline of proposals system have been urgently requested since set out in the Board's reports to the Mini 1962, will the Minister of Public Works pro ster dated 4th September, 1967, entitled vide an explanation for the protracted de "Organization for Strategic Planning". lay of any action at St. Arnaud court (c) The Town and Country Planning house? (Amendment) Act 1968 provided the neces sary machinery for the setting up of The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER regional planning authorities. (Minister of Agriculture) .-The answers are- RAILWAY LOAN APPLICATION (a) There is now no deadlock. BILL. (b) The project was delayed pending a The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Min decision on allocation of costs, which has now been resolved. ister of Agriculture) .-1 move- That this Bill be now read a second time. Contract documents are in course of pre paration. This is a Bill to authorize the expen diture of an amount not exceeding COUNTRY ROADS BOARD. $24,000,000 from the Loan Fund on DUPLICATION OF BRIDGE OVER account of the Railway Depart WODONGA CREEK. ment. The specific allocations are listed in the schedule to the Bill. This The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY measure cancels any unexhausted (North-Eastern Province) asked the provisions in the current Railway Minister of Agriculture- Loan Application Act. The Bill is Does the Country Roads Board propose drawn to cover the period from the to duplicate the bridge over the Wodonga 25th August, 1968, to 31st Decem creek, Hume Highway, Wodonga; if so, when? ber, 1969, and the amount 'of $24,000,000 relates to this period; the The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER sum for the current financial year is (Minister of Agriculture) .-The $17,064,000. answer is- The Bill and the explanatory notes Yes; the construction of the bridge is ex pected to commence early in 1969. give a good deal of detail and 1 do not propose to mention each item. WESTERNPORT REGIONAL However, 1 do wish to draw the at PLANNING AUTHORITY. tention of honorable members to several items of importance. Almost PROPOSALS OF TOWN AND COUNTRY all the expenditure provided for in PLANNING BOARD. this Bill will go to improve railway The Hon. I. R. CATHIE (South services. There is a lot of catching Eastern Province) asked the Minister up to be done in this regard, not oniy for Local Government- to rehabilitate a huge ,organization (a) What proposals were put forward by but to do this at a time when tech the Town and Country Planning Board to nology and the railways' transport the shires proposed to be included in a Westernport Regional Planning Authority competitors have gone ahead in leaps at a meeting on the 18th January, 1968? and bounds. This task of catching Railway Loan [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Application Bill. 2543 up is extremely costly and, unfor I have spoken of the major expen tunately, cannot be achieved as ditures proposed for rolling-stock in quickly as we would all like. All hon the next year. I now turn to discuss orable members are aware of the the significant expenditures which financial restrictions placed on the will be met to up-grade tracks. Ex Government by the Loan Council. penditures in this category are listed under item No. 1 in the schedule The programme of replacing steam to the Bill. The railways have 300 locomotives with diesel locomotives men working in four gangs, each gang was a major initial step in the pro equipped with the most modern ma gramme of up-grading railway equip chines available to re-Iay tracks in ment and service. This replacement country areas. Work is being carried has now almost been achieved. out on the Portland line, the main Twenty-eight diesel locomotives were north-east broad-gauge line, the Yar delivered during the past year. Eight ram line, and the Sea Lake line. more diesels are scheduled for de These gangs re-Iay an average of livery, and the replacement is expec about 160 miles of track in a year. ted to be completed in 1971. That will see the end of steam. Sub-item The up-graded tracks allow better No. 201 in the schedule allows an railway service, with smoother expenditure of $2,000,000 for locomo running trains and higher train tives. speeds. With the improved tracks and better rolling-stock, the railways The major expenditure for rolling are now running express goods train stock this year will be for 100 ad services up to 60 miles per hour on ditional grain hopper wagons, at the main interstate routes. A similar least 50 special container carrier service has recently been provided to wagons, 50 large open general freight Portland and Mount Gambier. wagons and 100 other wagons of various types equipped to carry long What happens when the railways and special loads. Some idea of the can provide efficient modern service cost of re-equipping a railway may be is illustrated by what occurred over gauged from the fact that these 300 the past six years on the Adelaide wagons will cost $3,200,000. line. In 1962, approximately 1,000 tons gross were hauled by each of Further expenditure on railway four trains each way weekly. Today stock will include $1,000,000 for the there are 34 trains a week running first of a new batch of suburban between Melbourne and Adelaide and trains. There is a major problem in train loads have reached 2,200 tons rehabilitating the suburban fleet. gross. As a matter 'Of interest, some Although 60 new trains have been arithmetic has been done. On an placed into service since 1956, many average loading for a semi-trailer it old trains remain. would require 3,000 trips by semi In an attempt to allow public trans trailers to carry the load carried by port to play its proper part in the these trains in anyone week. transport scene-every fDrm of trans A further example of what the rail port has its place in a modem com ways can do is the recent speeding munity-recently tenders were invi up of service between Mount Gam ted for a new batch of suburban bier, Portland and Melbourne. With trains. Each of these new trains will express trains, an overnight freight consist of six 75-ft. carriages cap service is given between Mount Gam able of carrying up to 1,500 people bier and Melbourne, and the Portland at peak load. These trains will have to Melbourne trip time has been re tinted anti-glare windows, power duced by three and a half hours. operated doors, fDrced-draught venti The Geelong line, which carries lation for use in the warmer months, 23,000 tons gross daily, has now and they will be heated. been duplicated to Werribee. allowing 2544 Railway Loan [COUNCIL.] Application Bill. improved service on this line. The in peak period travel has taken place next section to be duplicated will be on the Burnley group of lines. The the 10 miles from Werribee to Little number of Melbourne-bound passen River. This work will be completed gers passing through Burnley during by late 1969 and it is expected the the morning peak period is now duplication of the Geelong line will 18,200-an increase of 30 per cent. be finished in 1970-71. since 1959-and the peak period traffi,c continues to grow. To enable A special type of track work which this increased traffic to be handled requires particular mention is being efficiently, additional trackwork has carried out with the building of the been laid between Richmond and Melbourne hump yard. The work be Burnley; the Glen Waverley line has ing done on this hump yard, which been duplicated throughout; and a will cost a total of $11,000,000, is third track, signalled for two-way proceeding on schedule and shoula running has been pr'ovided between be completed early in 1970. This Bill Hawthorn and East Camberwell. authorizes an expenditure of $3,150,000 on this project this year. However, there are two bottle Although the hump yard involves the necks still to be attended to. One most modern techniques of railway is between Jolimont junction and operation, the principle of its working Richmond, where two extra tracks is very simple. Wagons are pushed must be provided before any more up one side of the hump by a loco peak period trains can be run to either motive, uncoupled, and allowed to Box 'Hill or Glen Waverley, and the roll down the tracks on the other side. second is between Burnley and Haw They can be switched to anyone thorn, where a third track is neces of a number of lines and their sary to segregate express and stop momentum can be retarded by the ping trains and to pave the way for use of sophisticated automatic and the running of more trains to Box electronic equipment. Hill. Work has already commenced on the Burnley-Hawthorn section, and The value of this project in in during the currency of this legisla creasing railway efficiency will be very real. This will be obvious to tion it is proposed to make a start on anyone who has studied the system. the Jolimont junction-Riehm,ond job. Service to customers will be speeded As well as' eliminating the remain up and the time which trucks and ing bottle-necks between Melbourne goods spend in the Melbourne yard and Hawthorn, the programme in will be considerably reduced. The cludes extension of the third track yard is now capable of handling 2,500 from East Camberwell to a point r>e trucks in a day, whilst the hump yard tween Mont Albert and Box Hill. will handle 3,75-0 trucks in the same time. This project is the result of I shall now deal with expenditure many years of study and work by the for the construction of new railway railways, and this year Commissioner lines and surveys, and so on. The Reynolds and Mr. Crute, the manager amount of $500,000 provided is of the Melbourne freight terminal, required- visited England to study hump yard (i) to enable further progress to operations there and to consult with be made with the prelimin the firm supplying the electronic· ary planning and investiga equipment for the yard in conjunction tion for the Melbourne with its Australian associates. Much underground railway; practical benefit was gained from this (ii) to enable new lines to Barry visit. Beach and Long Island, Track work is also being carried already authorized by Par out in the metropolitan area. Over liament, to be completed; recent years, the most rapid increase and The Hon. G. L. Chandler. Goods (Textile [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Products) Bill. 2545 (iii) to cover expenditure that GOODS (TEXTILE PRODUCTS) may be incurred on any BILL. other line that has been The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister authorized, Dr that may be of 'Health) .-1 move- authorized, by Parliament That this Bill be now read a second time. during the currency of the This is a Bill to amend Part V. of the Act. Goods Act 1958 in so far as it applies to the labelling of textile products. With regard to the first of these This is an area of the law in which items, the underground railway, it has been the practice for quite while some additional test boring is a few years to maintain uniform legis being carried out to complete the lation between the several States, sub-surface picture, the only real and also the Commonwealth. The problem remaining is finance. Once Comm'Onwealth Commerce (Imports) this has been surmounted, work can Regulations apply to imported goods c'Ommence quickly. The new lines to at their point of entry into Australia, Barry Beach and Long Island, referred while the laws of the States apply to to under sub-items Nos. 302 and 303, these goods, as well as locally made respectively, are associated with the goods, at their point of sale. rapid developments that are taking The provisions of the Goods Act place in Victoria, particularly follow which apply particularly to textile ing the discovery of oil and natural products are contained in section 92. gas in Bass Strait. Briefly, the section requires that textile products as defined shall be Barry Beach is being developed as labelled with particulars of their the construction and embarkation site fibre composition; a person who sells for all oil and gas platforms and or offers for -sale any textile pro under-sea pipelines in Bass Strait. duct which is not so labelled com The Tyabb-Long Island line is be mits an offence. A textile product ing built in the first instance to serve containing at least 95 per cent. a new superphosphate works being wool is to be described as "pure established in this area. However, it wool "; other textile products are is suitably located to meet the to be described in various ways. requirements of other industrial developments expected to take place Not unnaturally, from time to time in the Hastings area. representa tions are made to the Gov ernment, on behalf of one interest or Additional explanatory material another, for some change in the detail and further details of the w'Orks of the legislation, although the main included in the Bill are contained in principles continue to gain general an explanatory memorandum which acceptance. When this happens, it has been circulated, and I shall be requires consultation between the pleased to furnish any 'Other informa seven Governments concerned; be tion that may be desired by honor cause interstate and international able members in respect of any of the trade are involved, obviously uniform items. I commend the Bill to the legislation must be maintained. On House. this occasion, agreement has been On the motion of the Hon. J. M. reached between all the Governments TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province), concerned for the introduction of the debate was adjourned. legisla tion to make three minor amendments to the existing law, which It was ordered that the debate be have been proposed by one or another adj'Ourned until the next day of meet of the trade interests concerned. I ing. shall now explain the proposals. 2546 Goods (Textile [COUNCIL.] Products) Bill. First, at present the Act requires Board, to fabrics containing a mixture the expression "pure wool" to be of wool and specialty animal fibres. used to describe textile products con The "Woolmark" symbol includes taining 95 per cent. or more wool. the words" Pure New Wool". This The percentage of 95 is used because would allow the "Woolmark" pro standard scientific tests have a 5 per gramme to be applied on an inter cent. margin of error. It was proposed nationally uniform basis, and the that it be permitted to use as alter Australian Wool Board is anxious natives either of the expressions" all to bring these specialty fabrics within wool " or " 10 per cent. wool". The the scope of the "Woolmark" pro Government agrees that the expres gramme as soon as possible. The sion " all wool" would be acceptable, State Ministers of Labour have agreed but not "100 per cent. wool", and to place before their respective Par proposes that section 92 be amended liaments legislation to allow this to accordingly. be done, provided that the fabric con tains not less than 80 per cent. Secondly, at present section 92 sheep's wool. applies only to those kinds of carpets coming within that part of the defini Allowing for the 5 per cent. margin tion of "textile products" which which I mentioned previously, this reads " woven, knitted or felted would permit the addition of up to materials manufactured from fibre". 15 per cent. of a specialty animal In fact, most of the carpets sold today fibre, while still permitting the are not of the woven kind. If it is " Woolmark" symbol to be applied. reasonable to require that carpet pile I am assured that in most cases this fibres shall be described at all, then proportion would be less than 15 per it is reasonable to require that they cent., and that the position is not shall be described in all cases, what likely to be abused because the ever the method 'Of manufacture of spedalty fibres are dearer than wool. the carpet may be. It is therefore In any case, it seems apparent that proposed to alter the definition of many sellers o'f these products would "textile products" so as to include prefer to stress the presence of the all kinds of carpet. specialty fibre-for example, mohair Thirdly, there is the matter of label -rather than to ignore it. Never ling textile products made of a mix theless, the amending legislation ture of wool and what are known as would permit the "Woolmark " "specialty animal fibres "-that is, symbol to be used by those wishing the rare and costly natural fibres to do so. cashmere and mohair and the hair Clause 1 provides for the Act to of the alpaca, camel, llama and come into operation on a day to be vicuna. It is fashionable for some fixed by proclamation. The 1st purposes to mix a small quantity of January, 1969, is the day which the one of these fibres with a large Government has in mind. Clause 2 quantity of wool to produce what is contains the substantive provisions claimed to be, for "fashion" pur of the Bill. Paragraph (a), which poses, superior fabric. amends sub-section (2) of section 92 The Australian Agricultural Coun of the principal Act, makes the cil, which comprises the State Min amendments necessary to allow the isters of Agriculture and the Com use of the expression "all wool " to monwealth Minister for Primary be used as an alternative to the ex Industry, has recommended that the pression "pure wool". Paragraph textile labelling laws be amended to (b) inserts an additional sub-section permit the application of the inter (2A) in section 92 of the principal national wool symbol "Woolmark ", Act, which deals with the descriptions introduced by the International Wool to be applied to textile products con Secretariat and the Australian Wool taining a mixture of sheep's wool and The Hon. T/. O. Dickie. Married Women's [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Superannuation Fund Bill. 2547 specialty animal fibre. Paragraph (c) Pension Fund or contributors to the amends the definition of "Textile State Superannuation Fund, provided products" in sub-section (4) of this that they do so within six months, section so as to include carpets of may transfer to the new fund on all kinds. 1 commend the Bill to the marriage without the necessity for a House. medical examination. Those who are On the motion of the Hon. ARCHI required to submit to a medical BALD TODD (Melbourne West Pro examination and successfully pass it vince), the debate was adjourned. will qualify for the full benefits of It was ordered that the debate be the fund. On the other hand, if a adjourned until the next day of woman fails to pass the medical meeting. examination, she will enjoy the bene fits of a lesser scheme whereby the MARRIED WOMEN'S State will contribute virtually 2! per SUPERANNUATION FUND BILl.• cent. as against the 7! per cent. to which 1 previously referred. When The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON persons of this type retire, they will (Minister of Education) .-1 move- obtain one and a half times what they That this Bill be now read a second time. have paid into the fund. The primary purpose of this Bill is to establish a Married Women's Two separate accounts will be set Superannuation Fund which will up under the legislation, one of which apply to both members of the Public will be called a special account into Service and women teachers. This which money already contributed to system will replace the scheme that the Married Women Teachers' Pen was set up approximately twelve sion Fund will be paid, and an years ago under the name of the ordinary fund into which the pay Married Women Teachers' Pension ments under the new scheme en Fund. This scheme has had limited visaged in the Bill will be paid. The appeal and many married women main aim of the Government is to teachers have preferred not to con cater for the special needs of married tribute to it. This new scheme is women. It is usual for them, because being introduced as a result of dis of family reasons, to have more fre cussions with the unions concerned quent absences from their employ and following a report of the State ments than male employees, and it Superannuation Board. was thought desirable to have some The basic change in the new scheme superannuation scheme whereby, is that instead of a married woman upon their return to work, they would contributing 5 per cent. of her salary not be faced with the liability of and the State matching this contri having to make up arrears. Secondly, bution, she will, in future, contribute it was considered that because of the 5 per cent. and the State will contri stress and strain placed on them, bute 7! per cent., or one and a half married women, who often have the times the amount contributed by the dual role of raising a family and married woman concerned. This undertaking employment, should be represents a substantial improvement permitted to retire on account of ill on the existing superannuation health on a basis which is less scheme. stringent than would normally be Other improvements will also be required. The benefits which will be effected by the legislation. First, the enjoyed by such persons will be less lump sum which would normally be than those applicable to the orthodox payable to a contributor upon reach State Superannuation Fund, but they ing the age of 60 years may be con represent a substantial improvement verted into an annuity or annual on those which are available under payments at the discretion of the con the Married Women Teachers' Pen tributor. Those who are at present sion Fund. 1 commend the Bill to in the Married Women Teachers' the House. 2548 Liquor Control [COUNCIL.] (Amendment) Bill. On the motion of the Hon. J. M. I propose to say what I think a TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province), reasonable, social attitude on this the debate was adjourned. question should be. It is con ditioned by the fact that the It was ordered that the debate be taking of reasonable quantities of adjourned until Tuesday, Dec-ember food and drink at a meal is the 10. most desirable way of having alcohol and ought to be encouraged. LIQUOR CONTROL (AMENDMENT) The taking of liquor with food ought BILL. not be restricted to those people who The debate (adjourned from Nov can afford the charges tha t are made ember 27) on the motion of the Hon. at licensed restaurants, of which I V. O. Dickie (Minister of Health) for offer no criticism, because in many the second reading of this Bill was instances they afford other a ttrac resumed. tions in the way of exotic pictures, music and other forms of entertain The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Mel ment. There are such places in bourne North Province) .-" I do not Melbourne, and if people can ·afford care what the people do in the to visit them, why should they not streets ", said George IV., "so long do so? as they do not frighten the horses". It remains for a Victorian Govern It is socially desirable that from ment 100 years later to adopt this time to time a father and husband example. "We do not care how should be encouraged to take his wife people drink at the football or in the to a neighbouring eating-house to streets", proclaims the Government, relieve the daily tedium of a hot "so long as we prevent them from kitchen. In such places, food to suit having drinks with their meals". How his purse can be obtained at reason do women regard the male alongside able prices, to be consumed together them at the football? They can have with a bottle of ale or of wine, or him bottled, canned or straight out whatever drink purchased at the of a tap. As the intake rises, so does ordinary retail price may be brought his pugnacity towards the umpire, the for the purpose. In country towns and villages, it may be assumed there opposing team and his neighbour. is a demand, perhaps not as great as The supporters may swim in the stuff in urban ·areas, for a licensed rest for all the Government cares, so long aurant, to which an ordinary artisan as people do not attempt to take a may take a bottle of beer to con bottle or a can to an eating-house. sume with his meal, instead of going The great Australian ugliness is around to the sale-yards or some to be seen every Saturday afternoon where else to drink in solitude. How ever, the Government's attitude is a t the football, where thousands of conditioned by the view that only the cans provide a trap for the unwary. wealthy can be trusted to take In some countries at certain seasons liquor with meals. The poor must of the year, people need snow shoes; not enjoy wine or beer with their at this rate, we will have to invent a meals. I point out that everyone can type of can shoe. How the great not afford black coats and striped Babylons of the brewing bonanza pants. must chuckle to see this ancient revival! This is a dizzard of a Bill The Hon. MURRA Y BYRNE.-The that cuts across nature itself. His Government pioneered the right to torically and sensibly, food and drink take liquor into cafes and restaurants. are to be taken together. In these The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Now liquorish times, the Government is this petulant Government is tak rearing a race of gongoozlers who ing away that right. The Govern stand, stare and drink. ment says, "We do not know the Liquor Control [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] (Amendment) Bill. 2549 difference between a milk bar and an that is strict control. Is it necessary eating-house". It is somewhat like for the Government to say, "The confusing an elephant with a violin. premises are quite all right for eating In reply to Mr. Byrne, at best this but not for drinking"? That indicates Bill is a horrible example of unskilled the kind of men in the Government labour. The Government said today with whom we are dealing. "Everything would have been all right but for the nasty people of the During the Committee stage of the press, who pointed out to the com Bill, I intend to suggest an amend munity that a person may drink in a ment which will obviate this offen milk bar not only milk but alsO' beer. sive provision which the Government The press had no right to say that. " proposes to inflict on the community. It may be the law, as I understand If the House supports this Bill, the from the second-reading speech of Government should then look at some the Minister of Health. If it is a mat of the evils associated with alcohol ter of contradiction, I shall read that in the community, as I have already part of the speech to the House. indicated-for example, the consump tion of liquor at football matches, and The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-Honor so on. Not only is it socially un able members will take it as read. desirable that people who attend football matches should be subjected The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-At to inconvenience and rudeness, but best, the Bill is an inadequacy and a most of the people who drink at the confessiO'n that the Government is football will step into a motor car not able to deal with the matter. At after the match and drive away. the worst, it is a snobbish attitude This aspect touches on danger to towards the poor people of the com life and limb. The remedy is simple, munity. The Government proposes and I trust the Government will sup that these people shall run the gamut port the Opposition on this matter. of the Liquor ContrO'I Commission, from which a permit must be ob Even in this House there may be tained. The Government appears to members who regard drink as a favour this kind of thing, and if it scourge of the devil, and they may stays in office much longer people well be right. However, drink is will be able to paper the walls with available in the community, and the all the permits they are required to Government should encourage its use collect during their lifetime. A per in a form and under conditions which mit will be required because there will promote moderate rather than is supposed to be great danger to' excessive drinking. The family man the health of the community in allow should be encouraged to partake of ing people to take alcohol into an un liquor with meals, accompanied by licensed restaurant, where sufficient cO'nversation, where moderation is the lavatories and toilet facilities, and so desirable object. I am inclined to on, must be provided. Section 224 agree with St. Paul who, many years of the Health Act reads- ago, said, "Use a little wine for thy No person shall keep an eating house or stomach's sake". serve meals to the public therein for gain or reward unless the same is registered The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE with the council. (North-Eastern Province) .-The Bill before the House seeks to amend cer It is an offence for such a person not tain provisions dealing with the to comply with the regulations made supply O'r consumption of liquor in by the Governor in Council regarding cafes and refreshment places. It also drainage, the provision of suitable deals with some minor amendments lavatories and sanitary conveniences, to the vintner's licence and with the and the maintenance of the premises problem of providing canteen services in a proper state of repair. Surely if in works areas. The title of the legis adequate inspection is carried out lation was changed when the Liquor 2550 Liquor Cont;ol [COUNCIL.] (Amendment) Bill. Control Act was introduced. Honor also the risk of a sprained ankle or able members will agree that the broken leg should a person trip over controls provided in the Bill are wide, the beer cans that become strewn all but the principle behind them is that over the place. where liquor is served other than in a private home it should be subject The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-And to the issue of a licence or some form one's clothing may be sprayed with of control, so that it can be policed. beer. Previously when proposed legisla The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE. tion of this nature was before the Tha t is so, and there are other similar House, as spokesman of the Country annoyances. A person may even be Party, I drew the attention of the hit on the head with a beer can that Government to the problem of liquor has been thrown. These are problems in cafes and refreshment rooms. My associated with licences issued for remarks went unheeded; in fact, the such areas. Another problem is that Government considered I was wrong of people taking liquor to football in my interpretation of the measure matches in bags, but this is a separate then before the House. However, matter which should be dealt with in shortly afterwards, the matter was its proper place. Most of the people brought to public attention and it who drink at the football do so for became evident that the interpretation the whole duration of the match, placed on the measure by the Country during which period probably they do Party was correct, and that anyone not eat anything. There should be could take liquor· into a milk bar, stricter control over this sort of refreshment room, or cafe, according thing. to the interpretation which may be I support the Bill because it is in placed on what might be termed a line with the views expressed by the casual eating-house, such as exists Country Party when the whole ques throughout the length and breadth of tion was first raised in this House. the land. As one who travels a good deal Mr. Galbally raised the matter of throughout the State, probably I have drinking whilst eating, and I thor more meals in cafes in country areas oughlv agree with him. If a person and in the city than most people. I intends to partake of liquor, there is do not consider that a person should no better way to consume it than be able merely to walk into a licensed with a meal. Surely the Government grocer's shop and purchase a can d~es not intend to make the provision of beer, then walk into a cafe and, WIde enough to permit a person to without the consent of the pro consume liquor in a milk bar. Surely prietor, consume intoxicating liquor. there are sufficient licensed premises I do not believe that is right. in this State. There are hotels If a family man wants to take his licensed restaurants and cafes which wife and children into a cafe for a provide for the serving of liQuor meal there should be places which and in. some instances it ma}~ b~ he can choose in the full knowledge served In motel rooms. There is also that no permits have been issued for provision for temporary licences to the sale of alcohol in them. He and be issued to allow liquor to be served his family should not be harassed by at certain places. people who might have consumed liquor. In some country cafes one Mr. Galbally referred to the prob frequently sees a person who has lem of liquor at football matches. spent more time than he should I am a great supporter of football and have at the hotel. This person enjoy watching a game. It annoys me harasses other patrons of the that liquor is consumed excessively cafe. It is sometimes difficult for at football matches because of its the proprietor to remove him and effect en some supporters; there is he has to call for police assistance. The Hon. I. A. Swinburne. Liquor Control [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] (Amendment) Bill. 2551 People should not be permitted to similar responsibility is thrown on the consume liquor in these cafes, first, proprietors of cafes which are granted because they become a nuisance to permi ts there will be no similar other people, and, secondly, because supervision. the Victorian laws provide that any This principle was enunciated by one who serves a person under the members of the Country Party in the age of eighteen years with liquor in debate on the previous Bill. How a public place is guilty of an offence. ever, there is one provision in this At sporting fixtures and in private Bill that members of our party are homes I have seen people under the not happy about. It is paragraph (b) age of eighteen years served with of proposed new sub-section ( 4) of liquor. If liquor is served in cafes sectIon 45, as contained in clause 2. without supervision the results may Paragraph (b) of the clause provides, be disastrous. inter alia- The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Does (iv) For sub-sections (4) to (10), both in Mr. Swinburne want a policeman to clusive, there shall be substituted be standing there while they drink the following sub-sections:- " (4) The Commission may grant it? a permit authorizing liquor to be The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-No, consumed possessed or controlled by any person over the age of 18 I am trying to be practical in my sug years- gestions. Some responsibility should be cast upon the person who is in (b) in a cafe between the hours of charge of the premises, but under twelve noon and ten in the evening the present Act there is no such re on any day except Sunday or Good sponsibility and children could be Friday and between twelve noon and half-past two in the afternoon served with liquor. People could and between six in the evening and bring liquor into the cafe without ten in the evening on Sunday seeking permission of the proprietor. or Good Friday; Under the provisions of this Bill it will Hotels are closed on Good Friday, so be necessary for a substantial meal to why should a permit be granted to a be provided before a permit will be cafe for the consumption of liquor granted, and that will mean that on Good Friday? During the Com liquor cannot be consumed in small mittee stage a member of the Country milk bars. The owner of a cafe at Party will move to have the words" or which a substantial meal is provided Good Friday" omitted from this pro will be given the right to apply for a vision. We expressed a similar desire permi t and he will then be respons when the previous Bill was before the ible for policing the conditions under House and we submit it again today. which it is issued. In spite of the During previous debates members criticism levelled at some hotel of our party have also referred to the keepers by the Chief Commis conditions under which vignerons' sioner of Police I believe they do a licences could be issued and I am reasonable job in supervising their pleased that this matter has been premises. Recently at a hotel in my reconsidered by the Government. electorate the local football club was Under the existing provisions it is having its end-of-season dinner. Be difficult for many vignerons to comply fore the dinner started the proprietor with the licence requirements and asked how many of the players were now a more reasonable approach has under eighteen years of age. Several been adopted to the conditions under which they may supply liquor on of the boys put up their hands and their properties. they were asked to leave by the proprietor, because they could not be Clause 8 of the Bill contains served with liquor. Most responsible amendments relating to the issue licensees accept this, but unless a of licences to canteens and works 2552 Liquor Control [COUNCIL.] (Amendment) Bill. areas. For many years the sale occasions, such as functions at a of liquor has been permitted at can local hall. These functions are held teens in certain works areas and the more in country areas than in the matter was really brought to atten metropolis. It was difficult to inter tion in relation to the developmental pret the Act in the way it which was work being undertaken at Barry worded but the proposed amendments Beach. The amendments proposed in clarify the position. In future, the the Bill will provide for a licence to person who is conducting the function be gran ted to a particular person at the hall will be responsible for any instead of to a works area. The breaches of the law that may occur. Commission will be permitted to Therefore, the Bill now provides a grant a licence to an existing licensed reasonable and practical method of victualler, and one factor which will meeting the problem. be taken into consideration in grant ing the licence is the number of The consumption of liquor creates existing licensed premises within a many problems and I shall not ex radius of 10 miles of the works area. pound all of them, even though they affect many walks of life. In my Members of our party have asked opinion, many road accidents are what will happen if a suitable person caused by the consumption of alcohol, cannot be found within the 10- but I believe that if the existing laws mile radius. As I understand the relating to motor vehicles were more position it will not be mandatory for rigidly policed there would be a re the Commission to grant a licence to duction in the road toll. This Bill a person within the lO-mile radius deals with this aspect in what might if it is satisfied that there are no be termed the contribution of alco suitable applicants. There is nothing hol to the road toll. I do no't mini to prevent the Commission from mize this effect, but if some of the going outside this area and obtaining other provisions of the laws of Vic another licensee. I presume the Gov toria were more rigidly enforced some ernment has included this provision progress would be made in reducing in the Bill to protect the interests of the road toll. a licensee whose business might be affected by the granting of a licence Only two weeks ago I was unfor to a canteen in the area in which he tunate enough to be involved in an is already trading. I hope that a accident because a transport driver, licence will not be granted to some who found that the lights on body from Melbourne whose business his truck had fused, left his would not be affected if a canteen vehicle on the road and failed licence were granted. to put out warning signals. My car ran into the back of the transport. The remaining amendments are The transport driver was not con more or less complementary and cerned tha t I was 90 miles from members of our party have not objec home and would be without my tion to them. We support the Bill vehicle for some weeks. He was con with the exception of the provision to cerned that he had to be in Sydney by which I have referred relating to the 7 a.m. the next day. The fact sale of liquor on Good Friday and the that the location of his vehicle principle of supervision of consump might cause more accidents did not tion of liquor in cafes. This matter worry him. was first raised in the press and When coming to Melbourne on Mon the Government now realizes that day morning I passed twelve trucks something has to be done to control which were proceeding north on the it, particularly in those cases where highway and which did not comply permits were not issued. There are with the laws relating to these plenty of provisions in the legislation vehicles. It is time that this position for licences to be provided for special was examined. The Government has The Hon. I. A. Swinburne. Liquor Control [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] (Amendment) Bill. 2553 been successful in putting unroad The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (M'inister worthy cars off the road and of Health) .-All honorable members it could be equally successful in en are aware of the many problems asso suring that unroadworthy transports ciated with the consumption of liquor, do not operate on the roads. As I but on this occasion I shall not dis said before, I do not minimize the cuss them in detail. I agree with effect of alcohol on the road toll, but Mr. Swinburne that when the no law which this Parliament passes Licensing Act was consolidated into will totally overcome this problem. the Liquor Control Act in the pre One of the greatest contributors is vious sessional period, the ma tter liquor consumed in private homes. being debated today was discussed, Statistics relating to motor accidents and warnings were issued that reveal that a large number occur in there could be problems in the early hours of the morning when differentiating between cafes which young people are returning home did not supply meals and those from parties. Many of us who which did and had been per have teen-age children are con mitted in the past to serve cerned with this problem because liquor, although very few people were the people who conduct these aware of it. The situation has now parties are not prepared to supervise developed that people are taking thei'r the consumption of alcohol at them. own liquor into restaurants at which I feel that this is one of the greatest meals are available. In the country problems facing the community. It areas that I know so well, and right is a problem which will never be along the Western Highway, I have visited many cafes and restaurants overcome unless a personal effort is and have found that people are made by each and every individual. availing themselves of facilities pro However, by an Act of Parliament, vided for the consumption of liquor. the consumption of liquor in public The press first raised the subject of places at least can be controlled. whether it was permissible for liquor While the Country Party accepts to be taken into an ordinary milk bar the principle that liquor may be con which did not provide a susbtantial sumed in public places under some meal. In addition, there were inquiries from many quarters as to degree of control, I am concerned whether this was permissible. As that this proposed legislation might honorable members are aware, it was contribute to the many problems not happening" but the possibility associated with liquor. This Bill deals existed, and in view of that fact the with the consumption of liquor in Government has had to move to cafes and restaurants, and I do not bring the situation under some believe that people should be able to control. take liquor into such places without supervision. The Country Party Mr. Galbally has made available to supports the provisions contained in me a copy of an amendment that the measure, with the exception of he intends to move at a later stage. that which deals with the consump Although it is aware of the desire tion of liquor on Good Friday. of Mr. Galbally and the Labor Party to return to the system that has been The motion was agreed to. in operation, the Government realizes The Bill was read a second time that two difficulties could arise. The and committed. first is that restaurants are serv ing meals to people who bring their Clause 1, providing, inter alia own liquor, and on Christmas Eve or (1) This Act may be cited as the Liquor New Year's Eve, when many Control (Amendment) Act 1968 and shall parties are being held, members come into operation on a day to be fixed by proclamation of the Governor in Council of the licenSing police could published in the Government Gazette. walk in and stop the restaurateurs 2554 Liquor Control [COUNCIL.] (Amendment) Bill. from serving liquor. The proprietor distinguish between restaurants and might say, " I am allowed to establishments which are primarily do it because of an amendment to milk bars. Many new restaurants the Act", and the police could reply, have been established within the last "That is not so, because the Act few months and they are meeting a has been changed". To avoid such need of the community. Most that a situation arising, the Government I have visited have been selling intends to proclaim the permit cigarettes, cigars and chocolates, and provisions early in the New Year. so on. Golden Fleece Petroleum, for Resaurateurs will have to apply example, has an excellent chain of for a licence, and it is doubtful restaurants throughout the State and, whether the Liquor Control Commis although restricted in the number of sion could hear them in time to articles stocked, they do sell tobacco, enable permits to be issued before cigarettes, and chocolates. Christmas. The adoption of this method will make it possible for As I have said, the present system restaurant proprietors to carryon in will be permitted to continue until the usual way during the intervening the New Year, and restaurants can period and then to submit their then easily obtain a permit at no fee. applications to the Commission. To The only inconvenience they will be make it as easy as possible for them caused is that they will need to make to obtain a permit, no fee will be application to the Commission, and charged for this licence. By not the Commission possibly will have to proclaiming these provisions until inspect the premises. I move- early in the New Year, and, in addi That, in sub-clause (1) of clause 1, the tion, by not charging any fee, the words "shall come into operation on a day Government is attempting to assist to be fixed by proclamation" be these people to continue as they are. omitted with the view of inserting the words "the several provisions of this Act shall Originally, the Government in come into operation on a day or on the respective days to be fixed by proclamation tended that unlicensed restaurants or successive proclamations." would not have to comply strictly with the rules and regulations of the The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Mel Commission with regard to licensed bourne North Province) .-1 am restaurants; and that as people astounded at what the Minister is would bring their own liquor, the now saying. He concedes that this prices charged for meals would system has been working well and not be as high as those in licensed restaurants. In this he sees no necessity for restau way, a community need would rateurs to apply for a permit; yet be met. Notwithstanding the fact he insists that it must be done. In tha t no fee is to be charged for a effect, the Minister is saying, "Leave permit, the Liquor Control Commis it to us. We will not proclaim this sion will still be responsible for Act and they will be all right over inspecting the establishments con Christmas. In due course they cerned and deciding whether or not can write to the Commission they are basically eating-houses. or somebody or other, and we shall tell the Commission not The Chief Secretary has asked me to be too hard on these people, to inform the House that, to the and they will get a permit. degree that it is possible, he hopes Just trust us." I would not trust the the Commission will realize that it is Government anywhere. I do not see the Government's intention that the why small shopkeepers in the com standard required to be observed munity should be so much under before a permit is issued should not Executive control. It ought to be be extremely high, because the main done by an Act of Parliament. Their purpose of the permit is merely to rights should be defined. The Hon. V. O. Dickie. Liquor Control ' [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] (Amendment) Bill. 2555 What is the point of writing to the to the public for consumption on the premises but where bona fide Commission if it is not to inspect meals are not ordinarily served to the premises concerned? An inspec the public for consumption on the tion 'has to be made under the premises. ' Health Act before an establishment (b) In section 45- may be licensed as a cafe, so what (i) For paragraph (a) of sub-section (1) is the point of duplicating the system? there shall be substituted the Is it to get square with the press? following paragraph :- In his second-reading speech the Min "(a) into or in any cafe at any time; " ; ister said- (ii) After sub-section (1) there shall be Experience over a considerable period of inserted the following sub- time has shown that members of the com section :- munity have not abused the privilege of taking their own liquor into unlicensed (iv) For sub-sections (4) to (10), both restaurants, cafes and other places where inclusive, there shall be substituted meals and refreshments are ordinarily the following sub-sections :- supplied to the public. " (4) The Commission may grant a per mit authorizing liquor to be consumed In view of tha t, there is no possessed or controlled by any person over need for the proposed legislation. the age of 18 years- Regrettably, however, the pub (a) in an unlicensed club which has been licity which has been given approved by the Commission pursuant to to this matter has created such the provisions of sub-section (5) during such distrust in the public mind that hours on any day or days as the Commission the Government feels constrained thinks fit; to take this action. I always (b) in a cafe between the hours of twelve thought that pUblicity was a noon and ten in the evening on any day except Sunday or Good Friday and between sine qua non of a democratic Gov twelve noon and half-past two in the after ernment, and that secrecy was the noon and between six in the evening on weapon of a totalitarian Government. Sunday or Good Friday; I do not think it is proper to put small shopkeepers, restaurateurs and (9) The Commission may grant a permit authorizing liquor to be consumed possessed cafe proprietors in the hands of the or controlled at a particular function or Government in this way, when their occasion in a cafe public hall or unlicensed rights should and could be defined by club by any person over the age of 18 years during such hours on any day or days legislation. A situation could be as the Commission thinks fit but in the case reached where everybody in the com of an unlicensed club no more than twelve munity would be in the Government's permits shall be granted in any calendar hands. I shall move my amendment year. later; at this point I wished only (14) A permit under this section shan to outline our party's attitude. The not be issued until in the case of a permit Minister speaks as though he is dis under paragraph (c) of sub-section (4) a pensing some largesse to the people. fee of $250 and in the case of any other permit the fee fixed by the regulations has In my view, the people have the same been paid. rights as a Minister of the Crown or (15) Where a permit is granted under anyone else. this section- (a) in respect of any cafe or public hall The amendment was agreed to, and any person in those premises other than the the clause, as amended, was adopted. occupier: or (b) in respect of any unlicensed club any Clause 2, providing, inter alia person in those premises- The Principal Act is hereby amended as may gratuitously supply liquor to any other follows :- person in the premises. " (a) In section 5- The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Mel (i) In the interpretation of "Cafe" for bourne North Province) .-1 wish to the words" meals or refreshments" there shall be substituted the words make one or two comments on what "bona fide meals"; Mr. Swinburne has said. In other States-honorable members will 2556 Liquor Control [COUNCIL.] (Amendment) Bill. immediately think of conditions in are they going to think about the Queensland-people have the privi proposal? This provision -opens the lege of buying liquor and taking it way for corruption to occur. If con into a cafe without disturbing their ditions are to be imposed, they should neighbour or anyone else. Those of be laid down by law. The Minister us who have travelled abroad recall has said that the Chief Secretary that throughout Europe the provision intends to tell the Commission not of food and drink go together. It is to be too 'hard on applicants. What undesirable that people who want to nonsense! My amendment attempts drink with a meal away from home to define the difference between a should be put to the intolerable cafe and a milk bar. Where meals are expense-unless they are well-to-do sold, where one can obtain a meal -of having to go to a licensed res on the premises-I do not think it is taurant. Mr. Swinburne contends that necessary to define what a bona fide a licensed cafe should be under super meal is-one can take alcohol and vision. I point out to him that under drink it with the meal. The definition this Bill there will be no such super of "cafe" is also wide enough to vision. All a proprietor has to do is include places where take-away meals to apply for a permit. It is not are sold. That seems to be reason envisaged that there will be any inspectors or policemen watching able. One can have a meal and par what goes on in a cafe. take of a bottle of alcohol, and the fact that a cafe sells meals to people The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-A per who take them away still brings it mit will be issued on certain condi within the scope of my amendment. tions. It is true that under my proposal The Hon. J. W. GALBALL Y.-The certain cafes which sell confectionery, Minister has informed the Committee and so on, will not be covered, but that there will be no conditions. they will be able to elect for them selves whether to continue to sell The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-The per small items of confectionery or mit is free. whether to be an eating-house in the The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-That true sense of the word. is so, but the conditions relate to the nature of the premises. The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-That will be a hardship to some proprie The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-The Com tors. mission will make its own decisions. The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-It The Hon. J. W. GALBAILL Y. will not be as great a hardship as is Now we are getting to it! I under imposed upon them now. If the IMin stand that if the premises are suitable, ister considers that to be a hard are provided with proper toilet faci ship, I shall include fruit and confec lities and are clean and so on, the tionery. I thank the Minister for the proprietor will be entitled to a permit. suggestion. I was hoping an honor The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-The Com able member would mention that. mission will control licensing. The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.-What The Hon. J. W. GALBALL Y. about cigarettes? There will be favouritism, which is The Hon. J. W. GALBALL Y.-I what I object to. There will be "·Mr. shall include cigarettes also. I shall Fixits" in the community, who will include cigarettes, fruit and confec obtain a permit for this proprietor tionery; a milk bar which sells milk and will not be able to obtain a per will be excluded. mit for someone else. The proprietors concerned are little people; many The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD. migrants own small businesses. What What about hamburgers? Liquor Control [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] (Amendment) Bill. 2557 The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-They consume what I should term a moder are a well-recognized form of take ate amount of liquor. I do not intend away meal. I move- to lay down conditions by which That it be a suggestion to the Assembly other people shall abide. The con that they make the following amendment in sumption of liquor in public places sub-paragraph (i) of paragraph (a) :-After should be controlled. Our party has , " bona fide meals" , insert" and at the end of the interpretation there shall be inserted always adopted that view, and will the words 'but does not include any continue to do so. The amendment premises where goods of any kind other is impracticable, and our party op than meals cigarettes fruit and confectionery poses it. are sold or disposed of for consumption off or removal from such premises'''. The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Mel The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE bourne North Province) .-Mr. Swin (North-Eastern Province) .-The posi burne said that no cafe in the country tion is going from bad to worse would meet the requirements. because Mr. Galbally's amendment Hundreds of cafes sell food. In any would exclude 99 per cent. of cafes or country town one can obtain a steak eating-houses in the State. in a cafe; many genuine eating houses also sell confectionery, fruit The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-I and the like, and they would come should like to exclude 100 per cent. within my amendment. Mr. Swin The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-A burne's objection is not to my amend cafe proprietor who sold a bottle of ment, which he ridiculed. His idea is Coca-Cola would be in difficulties. that nobody should have the right to Most cafes sell soft drinks and many take liquor into a cafe unless it is other lines. A proprietor who sold a under some form of control, which he packet of matches or a packet of did not designate. The only form of Aspros would be in trouble. Through control is to ensure that premises are out the country districts, many small clean and decent, and these provi shops are providing service after the sions are provided in the Health Act larger shops are closed. As a result in relation to the registration of of amendments to the Labour and premises with a council. What other Industry Act, small shops are per control can be envisaged, other than mitted to sell various goods and most having a policeman there watching cafe proprietors, in order to make a person drink? I suggest to Mr. ends meet, have widened the scope Swinburne that he is all astray in this of their sales. Under Mr. Galbally's matter. amendment, the type of restaurant The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (M'inister which would come under the exclu of 'Health).-The fact that Mr. Gal sion would be eligible to be, and in bally was prepared to see the short most cases would be, a licensed comings of his amendment and to restaurant. I doubt whether one add other words to it shows the great could find one restaurant in Victoria difficulty associated with this point. which would come within the cate The very difficulty that the Bill sets gory proposed in Mr. Galbally's out to attempt to overcome is that amendment. Members of our party are not prepared to accept the pro which Mr. Galbally recognized by posal. adding certain words to his amend ment. I realize that there are some The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-You good unlicensed restaurants in the are not prepared to accept the prin suburbs-some of them owned by ciple that a person can take a bottle migrants in Carlton and elsewhere of beer anywhere. That has been which sell only food. Henceforth it your traditional attitude to liquor. will be necessary for them to seek a The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-I permit. They will do so because no have been fairly moderate in my view fee will be attached to it, and they on this subject over the years. I will realize they have several months Session 1968.-94. 2558 Liquor Control [COUNCIL.] (Amendment) Bill. in which to apply without interfer front door; the proprietor must ac ence from the law. Again, I quote cept the responsibility for ensuring the Golden -Fleece chain of restau that the conditions are adhered to. rants, which is one of the best throughout the country. These res The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-He taurants sell practically everything. might not be able to obtain registra Mr. Galbally's amendment would tion under the Health Act. exclude them. The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-All Mr. Galbally challenged me to do was A small restaurant in my town has to state how the controls would be a cigarette bar, a chocolate bar and imposed. a cigar bar. It would be excluded under the amendment. It also dis The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-I still plays paintings for sale. Under Mr. cannot see them. Galbally's amendment, that restau rant would not be able to obtain a The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-If a permit because it sells things other person does not want to see some than confectionery. The more -one thing, he will not. The position is considers this situation the more laid down in the measure and, in the one realizes the difficulties. There opinion of the Country Party, it is fore, the Government intends to clear and precise. confine the position strictly to the The suggested amendment was provisions which have been operative negatived. and have been working well. Because of the difficulty of distin The Sitting was suspended at 1.3 guishing between a milk bar and a p.m. until 2.18 p.m. restaurant, the Government believes The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Mel that this matter should be under the bourne North Province) .-Whatever control of the Commission, and that errors I was led into were due to a permit should be obtained. The the Leader of the House. Although permit will cost nothing, and the busi we belong to opposite sides of the ness concerned will have a couple of House, I hope the day will never months in which to obtain it. This dawn when I shall spurn suggestions is the best solution to this difficult sincerely made by the honorable problem. gentleman because of our relative The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE positions in the Chamber. I have al (North-Eastern Province).-Mr. Gal ways been one to respect the wishes bally said that I gave no -indication of the Committee. The failure of my of how this matter would be con amendment to be passed is a dis trolled. When permits are issued appointment to me and no doubt to under the Liquor Control Act, certain all those little people in the com conditions must be met. These per munity to whom I adverted, but I mits do not indicate whether toilets do not propose to persist in my other must be provided and whether they amendments. shall be clean, and things of that The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE nature. Most of those matters (North-Eastern Province) .-As I are controlled under the Health stated when speaking to the motion Act. The Liquor Control Act for the second reading of the Bill, places a responsibility on the pro members of the Country Party have prietor of the establishment. The consistently agreed that liquor should proprietor will have to meet these not be provided on Good Friday. conditions, in the same way as he Therefore, I move- must see that no one under the age That it be a suggestion to the Assembly of eighteen years consumes liquor on that they make the following amendment his premises. It is not necessary to in paragraph (b) of proposed sub-section (4) of section 45 :- Omit the words "or have a policeman standing at the Good Friday." Liquor Control [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] (Amendment) Bill. 2559 The Committee divided on the . The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister suggested amendment (the Hon. ister of Health) .-1 invite the Com G. J. Nicol in the chair)- mittee to vote against this clause. Ayes 9 Later, 1 propose to move for the Noes 24 insertion of a new clause to follow clause 3. Majority against the sug- gested amendment 15 The Chief Secretary has received persistent representations from the AYES. wholesale liquor merchants concern Mr. Bradbury Mr. Mitchell ing their problems in offering hos Sir Percy Byrnes Mr. Swinburne. pitality to their clients. Before the Mr. Clarke Tellers: new legislation, the licensing auth Mr. Hewson Mr. Mansell Mr. McDonald Mr. May. orities allowed part of a wholesaler's premises to be excised from the NOES. premises actually licensed. This Mr. Byrne Mr. Houghton enabled liquor to be consumed on Mr. Campbell Mr. Hunt Mr. Cathie Mr. Merrifield that part of the premises. Under the Mr. Chandler Mr. O'Connell Liquor Control Act it is an offence Mr. Dickie Mr. Thom to dispose of or consume liquor on Mr. Elliot Mr. Thompson Mr. Fry Mr. Todd any premises ancillary to licensed Mr. Galbally Mr. Tripovich premises. Mr. Gleeson Mr. Walton. Mr. Granter The Chief Secretary is not anxious Mr. Gross Tellers: Mr. Hamer Mr. Grimwade to extend the "wine tasting" pro Mr. Hamilton Mr. Knight. visions in so far as they are given to The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister retail bottle merchants, but has of Health) .-1 move- agreed to reframe the liquor tasting That it be a suggestion to the Assembly provisions as they concern whole that they make the following amendment in sale merchants. The proposed amend clause 2, paragraph (b) :- ment will preserve the original Omit the following words and expres amendments agreed to in the sions :- Assembly in so far as they extended "(14) A permit under this section shall not be issued until in the case of a permit the right of sampling cider, under paragraph (c) of sub-section (4) perry or mead, as well as wine or a fee of $250 and in the case of any other spirits, but they make, in addition, permit the fee fixed by the regulations has been paid." separate provisions to allow the Com and insert the following :- mission to grant a wholesale liquor "(14) The fee for a permit under this merchant a permit to supply gratuit section shall be in the case of- ously liquor of any kind to his (a) a permit under paragraph (b) of sub-section (4) -no fee; clients. (b) a permit under paragraph (c) of sub-section (4)-$250; and It is believed that the proposed (c) any other permit-the fee pre new clause will enable the Com scribed." mission adequately to control drink The suggested amendment was ing on wholesalers' premises, but at agreed to, and the clause was post the same time allow wholesalers, poned. under proper supervision, to carryon Clause 3 was agreed to. their traditional custom of dispensing hospitality to their clients. Clause 4- In sub-section ( 1) of section 33 of the The clause was negatived. Principal Act for the words " wine or spirits" where twice occurring there shall be sub stituted the words "wine spirits cider perry The remaining clauses were agreed or mead". to. 2560 Land Tax [COUNCIL.] Bill. The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister LAND TAX BILL. of Health) .-1 propose the following The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Min new clause to follow clause 3 :- ister of Agriculture) .-1 move- 'AA. Section 33 of the Principal Act is hereby amended as follows :- That this Bill be now read a second time. (a) In sub-section (1) omit" the holder The main purposes of this Bill are to of a wholesale liquor merchant's licence give effect to the Budget promise to or" ; abolish land tax on primary pro (b) In sub-section (1) for the words duction land, and to declare the rates "wine or spirits" (where twice occurring) of land tax on other land for the there shall be substituted the words "wine spirits cider perry or mead" ; calendar year 1969. At the same time, the opportunity has been taken (c) At the end of sub-section (1) there shall be inserted the following sub to bring forward some earlier Govern section :- ment proposals for changes in the " (IA) Notwithstanding anything in the Land Tax Act to facilitate the use of last two preceding sections the Commission municipal valuations, and the trans may on the payment of the prescribed fee fer of land tax valuers to the staff grant to the holder of a wholesale liquor merchant's licence a permit authorizing him of the Valuer-General, and also to subject to such terms and conditions as the bring forward several other desirable Commission thinks fit and as are specified amendments. in the permit to supply gratuitously liquor on such part or parts of the premises as is The reasons for the Government's or are specified in the permit to clients of the holder and authorizing the consumption decision to abolish land tax on on such part or parts of those premises of primary production land were ex the liquor so supplied. " ; plained in the Treasurer's Budget (d) In sub-section (2) for the expression speech. Farmers coming out of the "sub-section (1) " there shall be substituted worst drought in living memory the expression" sub-sections (1) or (1A) " ; have in most cases suffered consider (e) In sub-section (3) for the expression able permanent loss of income and, "sub-section (1) " there shall be substituted more important, loss of capital for the expression" sub-sections (1) or (IA) ".' the generation of future income. In The new clause was agreed to. this latter respect, there has been extensive pasture deterioration and Progress was reported, and the loss of livestock. Having regard also suggested amendment was reported to rising costs and falling overseas to the House and adopted. prices, the farmer's capacity to It was ordered that the Bill be absorb these losses and pursue a returned to the Assembly with a recovery programme is severely message intimating the decision of strained. In order to help the farm the House. ing community to recover from these setbacks, and to provide permanent encouragement for the development SUPERANNUATION of Victoria's important primary (AMENDMENT) BILL. industries, the Government has taken This Bill was received from the the decision embodied in the Bill. Assembly and, on lhe motion of the Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister By means of the simple amend of Education), was read a first time. ment proposed in paragraph (/) of clause 2 of the Bill, all land used for primary production will become MELBOURNE HARBOR TRUST exempt from land tax from 1st LAND BILL. January, 1969. In other words, land This Bill was received from the now subject to the concessional rate Assembly and, on the motion of the provided for primary production land Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for will not be subject to land tax after Local Government), was read a first 1968, provided that it continues to time. be used as such. Land Tax [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2561 It was also stated in the Budget With this decision, the co-ordination speech that some compensating of valuatio,ns for rating and taxing adjustments would be necessary to purposes through the Valuer-General offset the revenue loss arising from was complete in principle, and much the exemption of primary pro progress has been made towards duction land. These adjustments are completion from the practical point contained in the table of rates of land of view. Already, 52 municipalities tax set out in clause 8 of the Bill. throughout the State have supplied The effect of the adjustments is to the Commissioner of Land Tax with increase by 10 per cent. the land tax valuations of unimproved capital on other land where it is valued at value which are being applied for more than $25,000. Land tax on land the 1968 land tax year, and it is of lower values is unchanged from expected that the adoption of muni the rates now applying. The new cipal valuations will be co"mpleted by rates will come into operation on 1st 1972. January, 1969. Some of the amendments of the In my introductory remarks, I Land Tax Act now proposed repre mentioned that the Bill included some sent merely the formal adjustment proposals for changes in the Land of the structure of the Act to the new Tax Act to facilitate the use of muni situation. It is necessary to remove cipal valuations and the transfer of from the Act all references to the land tax valuers to the staff of Commissioner's responsibilities for the Valuer-General. These changes making valuations for land tax pur should remove much of the misunder poses. At the same time, it is pro standing which has arisen in the past posed that as an administrative mat from the lack of uniformity in valua ter, with a view to further rationaliz tions for different rating authorities. ing valuation services and giving the They represent a logical working out Valuer-General the means of per of the principles already incorporated forming any valuations required of in the Valuation of Land Act. In the him, the valuation staff of the Com circumstances, before passing to a missioner of Land Tax will be trans discussion of the relevant amend ferred to the Valuer-General. The ments, it is perhaps desirable that I main work now performed by this should review the steps which have staff is valuations for probate and stamp duty and miscellaneous led to these amendments. valuations for various Government In 1960, the Government took the Departments and semi-government step of legislating for the appointment authorities. The responsibility for of a Valuer-General to co-ordinate this valuation work will be trans and advise on all valuations for ferred from the Commissioner of rating and taxing purposes with a Land Tax to the Valuer-General, and view to securing reasonably uniform further amendments of the Land valuations throughout the State. At Tax Act are required for this purpose tha t time, the absence of uniformity also. was quite noticeable as between municipalities and became particu From what I have said, honorable larly evident when such valuations members will readily perceive that were adopted by other rating there is a close link between some of authorities. the amendments contained in this Bill and those proposed in the Valuation Great progress towards uniformity of Land (Amendment) Bill 1968. The of municipal valuations has been amendments required for these pur made since 1960 and, consistent with poses, together with a number of the ideal of over-all uniformity, the associated amendments, are contained Government decided to adopt munici in clauses 2, 3 and 6 of this Bill. pal valuations for land tax purposes. There is no need for me to delay the 2562 Chir,opodists [COUNCIL.] Bill. House by dealing with -the clauses of and type of artificial foot aid neces the Bill in detail. However, detailed sary to correct posture defects due informa tion will be supplied to all to foot injury, the chiropodist often honorable members who require it. uses his special skill for building and I commend the Bill to the House. fi tting the aid. His services are ex tensively used in the rehabilitation On the motion of the Hon. J. M. of the physically handicapped and in WALTON (Melbourne North Pro assisting the aged by improving their vince), the debate was adjourned. comfort and mobility. The majority It was ordered that the debate be of general hospitals now have a con adjourned until the next day of sultant chiropodist to assist with meeting. treatmerit of various types of cases needing chiropody. CHIROPODISTS BILL. In view of the development that The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister has taken place over the years in this of Health) .-1 move- profession, and because of the com paratively skilled range of services That this Bill be now read a second time. that the profession is able to offer This Bill is introduced to set up a to the public, it is considered appro Chiropodists Registration Board of priate for standards of training to be Victoria to undertake the respon set by a properly-constituted board sibility of fixing standards for the and for the activities of those engaged training and examination of chiropo in the profession to be supervised dists, issuing certificates of registra and controlled by it. It follows that tion and generally supervising the in setting up such a Board the public practice of chiropody by chiropodists. will automatically be protected from Over the years, representations have the unskilled or inadequately trained been made by various interests for operator. The Bill will set up a the introduction of legislation to Chiropodists Registration Board to be recognize chiropody as a profession appointed by the Governor in Council and so ensure that the members of consisting of two medical prac the public receive chiropody treat titioners, and four chiropodists, one ment only from those persons who are of whom will be appointed as chair adequately qualified. This profession man. Under sub-clause (1) of clause is now regulated by legislation as to 4, three of the four chiropodists will its practice, by Goverment registra~ be elected by registered chiropodists, tion boards in Western Australia, provided that in the case of the New South Wales and Tasmania. original appointment of the Board, Although premises in which chiropody all four chiropodists will be selected is carried on have been the subject by the Minister for appointment. of control under the Health Act in Victoria since 1954, the actual prac The usual provisions relating to tenure of appointment of members tice of chiropody has not been con~ trolled by legislation. of the Board, meetings of the Board, a quorum, appointment of acting Today a thoroughly-trained chiropo chairman, voting and loss of member dist both in Australia and overseas ship of Board are included in the undertakes work far in advance of balance of clause 4 and in clauses 5 merely paring corns and callouses. and 6. Clause 7 sets out the powers He is trained in various methods of and duties of the Board, which providing prosthetic aids for persons include the training and examination whose feet have been injured and of chiropodists, the issue of certifi those who have been treated surgi cates of registration, generally, the cally to correct deformities and the supervision of the practice of chiro like. Whilst a specialist medical prac pody by chiropodists, and the appoint titioner indicates the over-all nature ments of registrar and staff. Chiropodists [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2563 In clause 2 of the Bill, chiropody The collection of fees and penalties is defined very widely. This definition and the use of the money so collected is the one that has been adopted by is authorized by clauses 11 and 12, the Parliament of South Australia. while clause 13 requires the submis Persons entitled to be registered after sion of annual financial and general the commencement of the proposed statements to the Minister. The prob legislation are described in sub-clause able financial situation of a Chiropo (1) of clause 9. These are- dists Registration Board has been (1) persons who have completed examined. Based on the prospective the course of training and registration of between only 1,000 and passed the examination pre 1,500 chiropodists, there would be an scribed under the Act; initial income to the Board, at maxi mum fee, of $18,000 in the first year (2) persons who hold a qualifica and between $12,000 and $14,000 a tion of a standard sub year thereafter. This would be more stantially similar to the Vic than adequate to cover the admini torian one ; and strative costs of the Board, but the fees initially prescribed may be less (3) persons who, being trained than the maximum. However, it is outside Victoria, have under desired to have the power to increase gone whatever further train fees by regulation when rising costs ing the Board thinks neces warrant it. sary and passed the pre Clauses 14 and 15 set out offences scribed examination. against the Act, including the practice Clause 10 covers the registration of of chiropody for fee or reward by persons practising as chiropodists and unregistered persons and penalties persons training to be chiropodists at therefor, while clause 16 deals with the commencement of this legislation. the cancellation or suspension of a registration and sets out the proce The Board to be established will be dure to be followed by the Board and able to register any person who the rights to an appeal of any person applied for registration within twelve who is refused registration or whose months of the commencement of the registration is cancelled or suspended. Act, if it is satisfied that such person Under clause 17, the Board will have is proficient in the practice. It will full powers to conduct any inquiry. have the power in any case it deems Clause 10 provides that persons necessary to require the applicant to whose registration is cancelled will undertake further training or to pass be required to surrender to the Board a special examination. any certificate of registration within 14 days under penalty of a fine of The Hon. 1. A. SWINBURNE.-Does not more than $50. Clause 19 fixes the Bill lay down standards of a maximum penalty of a $50 fine for efficiency for chiropodists? any failure by a person registered as a chiropodist to carry out any lawful The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-The stan direction of the Board. The Governor dards of efficiency will be one of the in Council, without recommendation responsibilities of the Board. All from any body, may make the regu persons undertaking training in chiro lations although, except in special pody at the commencement of the cases, they will be made only as Act will be required to record their recommended by the Board. names with the Board. On completion of training, they may be registered by On the motion of the Hon. D. G. the Board but, if the training is ELLIOT (Melbourne Province), the deemed inadequate, the trainee may debate was adjourned. be required to undertake a further It was ordered that the debate be period of study and pass a special adjourned until the next day of examination. meeting. 2564 Crimes (Evidence) [COUNCIL.] Bill. CRlMES (EVIDENCE) BILL. one case each year. He has sub The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister mitted that there is a mischief which for Local Government) .-1 move- ought to be provided against, and this Bill takes cares of that mischief. That this Bill be now read a second time. The Bill proposes to amend the In respect to the breath test evi Crimes Act 1958 with respect to per dence, the case of Mintern-Lane v. jury, and also with respect to evi Kercher was recently brought before dence of breath tests for determining Mr. Justice Newton of the Supreme blood-alcohol levels. It is perjury to Court. Under paragraph (b) of sub swear what one knows to be false or section (4) of section 408A of the does not believe to be true. Normally, Crimes Act 1958, a person is not the onus rests with the prosecution required to submit to a breath test to prove that a statement was made except at or in the vicinity of the on oath with knowledge of its falsity. place where his driving or being in Cases occur, however, in which the charge of a motor car occurred, circumstances are such that, although or at the police station nearest a person has made conflicting state to that place. In the case in ments, no one can prove which state question, the Laverton police station ment was false and proceedings can was nearest to the place where not be brought against that person. the defendant was apprehended. It is proposed that, when an accused At that time the police station was person has made irreconcilable locked, having been closed earlier statements on oath, the jury may for the night. A breathalyzer was specially so find; the jury may also set up in the police car in the street find that it is incapable of establish immediately outside the station and ing which statement is untrue. An the defendant was asked to submit accused person is then to be taken as to a breath test in the police car. guil ty of perjury, even though the He refused, and the question for prosecution cannot prove which state determination by the Supreme CDurt ments were false. This Bill follows was whether a refusal to submit to a test in the street outside the police the New South Wales legislation, station could be said to have been which has been in operation for some a refusal "at a police statio~ " years. within the meaning of the section. I direct the attention of honorable The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-It members to the fact that, in 1958, means that if a police station is the question of whether or not this closed a breathalyzer test may be provision should be enacted in Vic taken in the car .outside the station. toria was considered by the Statute Law Revision Committee. In its The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-A breath report of the 24th September, 1958, test may be taken at or in the vicin the committee stated that it was not ity of a place where an accident has convinced that the mischief to which occurred. If in fact the police the Attorney-General had referred in station is found to be closed, the his submission was either sufficiently test may be taken in the vicinity grave or sufficiently widespread to .of the police station. Many police justify the enactment of the proposed stations are closed for some period in each day so that the risk of this provision in Victoria. In the ten years situation recurring is rather high. To which have elapsed since that report, permit of breath tests being made in further cases of this type have arisen. a car outside a closed police station, There is no actual record of the total the Bill proposes to alter paragraph number of such cases because, under (b) of sub-section (4) to require the the existing law, no action can be test to be taken " at or in the vicinity taken. The Crown Solicitor reports of the police station" nearest to the that his attention is directed to about place of the .offence. Crimes, (Evidence) [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2565 The next matter arises out of a It was ordered that the debate be Full Court case, Lynch v. Hanlon, in adjourned until the next day of 'meet which the informant simply gave ing. evidence of apprehending the defend ant and taking him to the nearest LAND (SPECIAL LAND) BILL. police station, where he was given The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON a breath test by other police. The (JMinister of Education) .-1 move- only evidence of the breath test before the lower court was a certifi That this Bill be now read a second time. cate in the form ·of Schedule Seven The purpose of this measure is to A of the Crimes Act 1958. Section cater for the development and change 408A of the Crimes Act contains of usage of certain sections of Crown provisions which were designed to land in western Victoria. The areas dispense with the attendance in court to which 1 specifically refer are the of the breathalyzer operator unless Little Desert and the Lower Glenelg notified by the accused person that region, which latter area consists of he required the operator to attend as 100,000 acres divided into three sec a witness. The Full Court held that tions-first, the Nelson area; secondly there should have been some evi the Glenelg river valley; and, dence by the informant that the copy thirdly, the Kentbruck Heath. certificate tendered in evidence was The other area concerned is the a copy of the certificate delivered to Little Desert, which has excellent the accused person and that no such potential for development. Most of evidence was given. It is apparent it is classified as country that from this judgment that the refer will carry one and a half to ences in the current section to two sheep to the acre, 1 am copy certificates are not sufficient told, and it has an annual rain if the certificates are to be expected fall of 18 to 19! inches. Therefore, to prove themselves. For the word it would seem that in its present " copy" the Bill proposes to substi form it is economically wasted, and tute the words "document purport the Government is anxious to ensure ing to be a copy ". its economic development. Repre sentations have been made to the Opportunity has been taken in this Government by many people-from Bill to revise the form of certificate field naturalists, apiarists, forest in Schedule A., which is now set out experts and entbusiasts, from more clearly and has been made pastoralists, people fond of bird easier to construe. The certificate watching, and people anxious to contained in the Bill includes no new make a start in farming life on a material. These amendments in turn small developmental block. The prob prompt some alterations in the form lem of the Minister of Lands has of certificate in JSchedule Seven A been to sort out the applications and with respect to the matters to be requests of these various group5; and certified in certificates. These plan some sort of consistent and amendments in their turn suggest reasonable form of development for that the certificate could be para the area. phrased profitably for ease of read In regard to the Lower Glenelg ing and assistance in construction. area, it is proposed that 22,400 acres The certIficate proposed in the Bill of mo,ooo acres should be set aside does not contain any new matter, but as a national park. 1 understand that is simply a rearrangement of the old this is a little more than was recom certificate in a more effective form. mended by the Land U tiliza tion 1 commend the Bill to the House. Advisory Council, which recom mended an area of 17,500 acres. The On the motion of the Hon. ARCHI aim is to take in a lease of approxi BALD TODD (Melbourne West Pro mately 25 miles of the Glenelg river vince), the debate was adjourned. valley, and particularly that section 2566 Land (Special [COUNCIL.] Land) Bill. .. where the river is very wide. There of course, would' be an initial cost could be some prospects of develop and would not include the cost of ing part of this land for grazing fences and bringing water to the purposes, but it is intended that the property. majority of the remainder of the It is interesting to note that in 100,000 acres shall be set aside for Victoria there are 56,000,000 acres. forest purposes. Already 34,000,000 acres have been The other main region being con alienated and another 12,850,000 sidered is the Little Desert area. This acres comprise of lakes, rivers, roads consists of 440,000 acres, a signifi and national parks. This leaves can t portion of which has already approximately 9,100,000 acres still been alienated. Here again, it is unalienated and largely unused in the intended to add from 80,000 to form of unoccupied Crown land. The 90,000 acres to what is known as Little Desert area forms a significant the Kiata National 'Park, which part of that area. already comprises approximately The reason for this Bill is to 3,000 acres, so with the additional divide the Crown land for develop area it will become one of the State's ment into two classes. The ordinary larger national parks. type will be dealt with under land It is interesting to note that when improvement purchase leases, and the the National Parks Authority was new section will be classified as created there were thirteen national special land. The first clauses -of the parks with a total area of 313,000 Bill are applied generally to develop acres throughout the State. During mental leases or improvement pur the past ten years another seven chase leases under the Lands Act. parks have been created, including The first change in clause 2 removes Hattah Lakes, Glenaladale, Fraser, any possible legal doubt on the power Mount Eccles, Port Campbell, Mount of the Lands Department to grant Richmond and ,Morwell. This propo land jointly to a husband and wife. sal will make a significant and This is a common procedure in other worth-while addition to the State's fields, because it has certain benefits national parks. The park in the from the probate angle. It is highly Little Desert area will take in a desirable that the power of the Lands 5-mile frontage along the Wimmera Department to do this should not be river. in doubt. Another aspect of the proposed The second provision of general change of usage of land in this area application is clause 4, which will is concerned with the intended enable the Minister to grant special developmental scheme through im concessions to those who ,have been provement purchase leases. The victims of drought, flood or personal area suitable for this purpose would ill health. At present all that can comprise approximately 196,000 be done to assist these people is to acres. The area has been divided take ·over the property, terminate the into regions A, Band C, largely lease and grant some concession for based on the nature of the existing improvements to the man responsible flora and fauna, but it is sug for carrying them out. However, the gested that it has the potential to Bill enables the Minister to give develop to a carrying capacity of one authority to the leaseholder, who and a half to two sheep to the acre, may be in the process of purchas and it is in the 18 to 19! ing the land, to exercise his right inches rainfall belt. I understand that under the lease and sell, transfer ini tial clearing costs would be or assign the lease to a person for between $22 per acre and $37 a price disclosed to the Minister. per acre, depending on whether a This seems to be a reasonable landholder did the work himself or and justifiable concession that the whether a developmental company Minister should be able to exercise. carried it out on his behalf. This, It is intended that the Little Desert The Hon. L. H. S. Thompson. Land (Special [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Land) Bill. 2561 area will fall within this general The provisions of proposed new classification, but the whole area section 162c will allow companies to is not uniformly classified as such apply for and be granted improvement by the Bill. A proclamation method purchase leases, but the Government is proposed. Clause 5 of the Bill would prefer the area to be developed inserts several new sections into by individual landholders. However, the Act and will classify various if substantial capital funds are lands as special land. Sub-section required for this purpose it may be (2) of proposed new section 162B desirable to seek applications from provides that any proclamation companies. However, there should be made under sub-section ( 1) of this a restriction on the amount of land section will not take effect until that can be granted to a company and it has lain on the table of the on behalf of the Minister of Lands I Legislative Council and the Legis foreshadow an amendment which will lative Assembly for 21 sitting provide that a company will be per days. I foreshadow an amendment to mitted to obtain land worth no more reduce the time to fourteen sitting than $18,000. This will be an im days because of certain technical portant safeguard. difficulties. It is still the intention of the Government that the proclamation It can be seen that generally speak shall remain on the table of both ing the Bill contains many provisions Houses of Parliament for sufficient relating to the development of these time to allow members to become two important areas in western acquainted with the intention. Victoria. It seems reasonable that special provisions should apply to the Other new sections will also apply granting of improvement purchase to special lands. For example, it may leases in this area because of the be desirable to waive the provisions special nature of the land. I recom relating to residence within a certain mend to the House the provisions distance of a property for a certain contained in the Bill. time. It may be necessary to apply On the motion of the Hon. SAMUEL special provisions to guard against MERRIFIELD (Doutta Galla Pro fragmentation of land, the develop vince), the debate was adjourned. ment of uneconomic blocks and over stocking. The provisions contained in It was ordered that the debate be the Bill will allow special clauses to adjourned until Tuesday, December this effect to be inserted in the leases. 10. Proposed new section 162n specific PERPETUITIES AND ally guards against fragmentation and ACCUMULATIONS BILL. overstocking. It provides that it is not This Bill was received from the permissible to subdivide land of this Assembly and, on the motion of the type once the lease has been granted. Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Proposed new section 162E is a Local Government), was read a first similar type of provision, and provides time. that where the Minister has granted a lease to a developer on the under DOOR TO DOOR (SALES) standing that that land will be (AMENDMENT) BILL. worked in conjunction with other land that the lessee owns, the land cannot The debate (adjourned from be sold or transferred without the per November 21) on the motion of the mission of the Minister during the Hon. R. J. Hamer (Minister for initial period. At a later date, the Local Government) for the second land may be sold, but only if it reading of this Bill was resumed. is coupled with the original block The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Mel owned .by the settler. It is im bourne North Province) .-This Bill portant to guard against fragmenta is complementary to a measure which tion . and the development of was before the House last week to uneconomic blocks. amend the Consumers Protection Act. o ., 01 2568 Door to Door (Sales) . [COUNCIL.] (Amendment) Bill. It amends an Act which was passed Door to Door Sales Act with the by Parliament in 1963 and which result that he does not have to issue to a large extent has been suc the customer with the necessary cessful. Unfortunately there are schedules relating to the five-day always some " smarties" in the com cooling-off period. I venture to sug munity who want to try to circum gest that not one person in a hundred vent the law. Therefore, from time would know that he has the benefit of to time it is necessary to strengthen this five-day cooling-off period. Most the law, and that is the purpose of the of them would go ahead with the con Bill. The amendments contained in it tracts which, in many cases, they are have resulted in the main from not in a position to fulfil. recommendations made by the Con sumers Protection Council in its There is a great deal of scope for report for the year ended 30th June, further action to be taken in regard 1967. In fact, the Bill implements two to consumer protection. As yet the of the recommendations of the council law on this subject is only a small part but the Government has not yet seen of the law of Victoria but it will grow fit to implement other recommenda bigger and will cover many more tions on this subject made by the fields. Reports I have on this subject council. I hope the Government is are too numerous to read to the House. still considering those recommenda They go into great detail on how tions because these matters have salesmen manage to get inside the received considerable attention by the front door. One such subterfuge is council and it is obvious that the Act referred to in the report of the Con will have to be amended eventually to sumers Protection Council and there cover the contingencies referred to in is a further report in a magazine these recommendations. entitled Melbourne Partisan. I do not know who publishes it. In an article Many unscrupulous persons have headed "Beware of the Dog", the accepted the Door to Door Sales Act author, Jim Lyell, makes some interest as a challenge and they have used all ing comments. He tells about how an sorts of subterfuges to get into homes encyclopaedia organization manages, to sell their goods. A recent practice under the subterfuge of carrying out in the area in which I live was the an inquiry into the sales of products, issuing of a crossword puzzle and the to get inside homes and tell the person winning the competition was occupants that they have been offered a discount on various elec selected as the recipient of a set of trical appliances. The person submit books but they have to make a sub ting the en try had to indicate the scription to something else. Finally, particular appliance he was interested the occupant puts his name on the in. I returned one of these puzzles dotted line and he has to pay in the to the organization and not long after vicinity of $400 or '$500 for something wards a salesman called at my front that is not worth $100. These sales door. Unfortunately I was not at men are highly skilled and have all the home at the time. He stated that, answers. They can fool the occupants although I had not been successful in of homes. winning the free television set, I had won a prize of $40 off any electrical Some people know that they are an appliance I cared to name. That is easy mark for salesmen and therefore the way these salesmen get under they window-shop before they make one's guard. Many people would be up their minds to buy anything. How lieve it to be a genuine discount, but ever, when a salesman comes to the if they made inquiries from the door he gets under their guard and several discount houses in the city they are unable to resist some of the they would get a better deal. This stories he tells them. Sooner or later subterfuge puts the salesman-or so he sells them a product which they he believes-outside the scope of the do not really want and which they The Hon. J. M. Walton. Door to Door (Sales) [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] (Amendment) Bill. 2569 really cannot afford. The Government (b) At the end of the section there shall cannot do enough to protect the con be inserted the following sub-section:- "(2) Where a credit purchase agreement sumers from these people. Many of is made by the purchaser or bailee (as the the organizations are based outside case may be) at his place of residence, and Victoria-indeed, some are based the vendor fails to give to the purchaser or overseas-and most of the ideas that bailee the documents referred to in para graphs (b) and (c) of sub-section (1) at they put forward seem to emanate the times at which they are required to be from the United States of America given by the said sub-section, the vendor where the legislators have had to take shall be guilty of an offence against this action similar to that proposed in this Act and liable to a penalty of not more Bill. than $200." A couple of the recommendations The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister made by the Consumers Protection for Local Government) .-Under sec Council are worthy of note. One is tion 3 of the principal Act it is an that door-to-door salesmen should be offence for a vendor, under a door-to licensed. I accept this recommenda door sales agreement, not to give the tion because I believe the consumer purchaser two documents which are should know the character of the intended to advise him of his rights, person who knocks at his front door. particularly his right to cancel any Sometimes, because they are unable purchase agreement within five days. to get an answer at the front door, As drafted paragraph (b) of clause 3 these salesmen walk down the side of the Bill makes it an offence for the of the house or even into the house vendor not to hand over the docu and do all sorts of damage. ments, and the purpose of the amend Whilst the Government may be con ment is to make it equally an offence gratulated on having taken some not to hand over either of them, since action in this regard, I believe that a there are two. I move- lot more needs to be done and that That, in proposed new sub-section (2), it needs to be done quickly, because after the word "bailee" the words "either the moment this Bill is passed the of" be inserted. " smarties" will be trying to find a The amendment was agreed to, as way in which to get around it. Mem was a consequential amendment, and bers of the Opposition will always the clause, as amended, was adopted. support any worth-while move to help to protect consumers. The Bill was reported to the House with amendments, and passed through The Hon. C. A. MffCHELL its remaining stages. (Western Province).-The Country Party is of the opinion that the pro posed legislation is a step in the right MELBOURNE UNIVERSITY direction. The experience I have had (COUNCIL) BILL. wi th door-to-door salesmen has not The debate (adjourned from been enjoyable. They employ high November 13) on the motion of the pressure methods and confuse Hon. L. H. S. Thompson (Minister of womenfolk. Any action that the Education) for the second reading of Government can take to protect con this Bill was resumed. sumers will have the support of the Country Party. The Hon. I. R. CATHIE (South The motion was agreed to. Eastern Province) .-This Bill, which amends the Melbourne University The Bill was read a second time Act, has been introduced at the and committed. request of the Melbourne University Clauses 1 and 2 were agreed to. Council. I assume, therefore, that its Clause 3, providing, inter alia provisions have the unanimous sup port of members of the council. Section 3 of the Principal Act shall be amended as follows :- However, I believe it is the duty of the Parliament carefully to examine 2570 Meibourne University : [COUNCIL.] (Council) Bill. proposals being considered by it. As however, that there is a lack of con..;. a result of my consideration of the sistency in the provision which measure, I propose to move two brief reduces the age qualification for amendments in Committee. under-graduate representation on the council from 21 to 20 years. In his The Bill proposes to enlarge the second-reading speech, the Minister council by providing for a number of explained that the principal reason for additional members. The Labor Party this proposal is that many of the has no objection to this proposal. It people who are now 21 years of age seems reasonable, bearing in mind are graduating, have graduated or are the great increase in the number of rapidly approaching graduation and sub-professorial staff and the im that, therefore, they could not be portant role which their committees expected to look after and responsibly play in the life of the university, that examine the interests of the under they should have the right to have an graduate student population. If it is additional member elected to the uni true that 21-year-old under-graduates versity council. are beginning to lose touch with the under-graduate student population, The University of Melbourne has the same argument must apply in placed increasing emphasis upon its respect of graduates who are twenty role as a post-graduate university as years of age. For that reason, at the distinct from its role as a university Committee stage I shall move that the for under-graduates. Post-graduates word "twenty" be omitted with should be given the right to elect a the view of ins'erting the word representative to watch their interests " eighteen" being inserted. on the council. I think approximately 1,400 post-graduate students are cur It seems to me to be a reasonable rently enrolled; and it seems to me principle-although I realize that it is to be strange that at a time when the not of great moment-that if under Parliament is debating legislation that graduates have the right to elect will allow the post-graduate group to somebody to represent them on the elect its own representative on the governing council of the University council, replies to questions that I of Melbourne, they should also have have asked in the House reveal that the right to stand for election and the number of Melbourne university represent the interests of their fellow grants and scholarships available to under-graduates. An under-graduate post-graduate students is being of nineteen or nineteen and a half reduced. If we are sincere about years of age could be in his third and wishing to make our universities com final year of his course, and if the parable with those overseas, we Opposition voted for the Govern should extend post-graduate courses ment's recommendation that such a at a far greater rate than has so far person could not stand for election to been the case. If a comparison is the Melbourne University Council, it made of the number of people study would debar him from representing ing for the degree of doctor of under-graduates while he himself was philosophy it will be found that we an under-graduate. fare poorly as against the United States of America and most countries The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON. in Europe. That is the council's recommendation. The Bill also provides for the presi The Hon. I. R. CA THIE.-I appre dent of the Students' Representative ciate that fact, but, as I said earlier, Council to be an ex officio member of members of this House have a duty the Melbourne University Council to examine recommendations placed with full voting rights, and' the before them and, if it is considered Opposition has no quarrel with. that that important principles are involved, provision. The Labor Party believes, to propose amendments. The Hon. I. R. Cathie. Melbourne University [4 DECEMBER, 1968.]" (Council) Bill. 2571 , With the general current -of debate free places were granted. In 1968, in this community and the trend to the figure hardly varied. There were wards giving a vote t-o eighteen-year 94 applicants, 31 of whom were olds, I have no doubt that within the interviewed, and again, under the next two years that will become a existing law, only 20 free places were reality, and I cannot see any reason granted. why we should not say to under graduates of eighteen years of age, I understand that the Free Places " You have the right to be elected and Committee makes its recommendation to represent your fellow under on the following basis: An appli graduates on the Melbourne Univer cant must have completed his first sity Council ". year at a university; in other words he must have successfully completed I do not intend to comment at one year of, perhaps, a three 'or four length on other provisions of the Bill year university course; ·or to have which deal, in the main, with the completed a diploma course in its period that the members of the entirety. This means that an appli council may serve, but I shall com cant has to prove that he is capable ment on clause 7, because it is the of undertaking and completing a intention of the Opposition to university course. One of the greatest propose an amendment to it. weaknesses in the educational struc We will suggest that instead of there tures, not only of this State but of being an increase from 20 to 30 the whole Commonwealth of Aus as mentioned in that clause, the tralia, lies in the field of adult edu increase shall be from 20 to 60. cation. There is a far too limited opportunity for adults in the com In his explanatory second-reading munity who leave school before gain speech, the Minister stated that the ing the higher qualifications which proposed increase in the number -of they now require and of which this free places at the university for pub nation is so urgently and desperately lic servants from 20 to 30 was justi short to gain higher qualifications. fied in view of the increase in the Public Service and the fact that eight The amendment that I foreshadow, or nine years had elapsed since the to increase the number of free places last increase occurred. Furthermore from 20 to 60, should be supported. more public servants are desiring to I realize that a quota system is undertake university courses. This is operating at the universities, which a healthy trend. It is important that makes for certain difficulties. I wish Victoria should be served by officers to make it clear that the Labor Party of the highest distinction, both in has always rejected the whole con academic achievements and in more cept -of a quota system at universities practical fields of day-to-day adminis or any other tertiary institution. If tration. I do not understand why the Labor Party had formed the Gov such a miserly increase in free places ernment this situation would not from 20 to only 30 is proposed. have -occurred. However, this system exists, and a special effort must be I attempted to ascertain the cur made to assist those people, par rent demand within the Public Service ticularly within the Public 'Service, to from people who wish to undertake gain qualifications and academic dis university courses and who desire tinction and, in return, to give better to take advantage of the provision service to the people of Victoria. to gain free places. These figures With the exception of the two amend were supplied to me through the ments that I have foreshadowed, our Free Places Committee of the Public party has no objection to the Bill. Service Board. In the 1967 academic The Hon. M. A. CLARKE (North year, there were 90 applicants for the ern Province).-This Bill proposes a 20 free places. Of these, 32 were number ·of amendments to the Mel interviewed, and of ,course only 20 bourne University Act. On the whole, 2572 Melbourne University [COUNCIL.] (Council) Bill. members of the Country Party agree attention of the Minister. This point with the proposals. Mr. Cathie has has been discussed by academics and raised two points for consideration, by councils 'Of 'Other universities. which I shall discuss in Committee Under this Bill, a graduate student and indicate how the Country Party must be enrolled for a course lead feels about them. At the outset, I ing to a master's degree or a doctor's poQintout that, in regard to the pro degree. If this student takes a part posed increase in the council of the time tutorial position-which it is University of Melbourne, the numbers possible to do when undertaking a stated in clause 3-that is, an further -c'Ourse-does he remain a increase from 34 to 35 and from 38 graduate student, or does he become to 39-do not tally with 'Other pro a member of the sub-professorial visions in the Bill. In his explanatory staff and therefore have a vote for second-reading speech, the Minister the sub-professorial representation? stated that twoQ of these places were I think this matter will cause some filled by previous legislation and that difficulty before long, because it is the Deputy Vice-Chancellor and the possible for a person to be on both Vice-Principal were added to the the graduate students' roll and the council without the principal Act be sub-professorial staff roll. This mat ing amended to increase its total ter should be considered by the Min membership. Actually, the Bill ister. I point out that at a subsequent proposes the appointment of three stage, two other Acts-the Monash additional persons to the membership University Act and the La Trobe Uni of the coQuncil. What puzzles me is versity Act-will no doubt be the legal situation that has arisen amended in accordance with this Bill, during the period when two more so the matter is of some importance members have been on the 'Melbourne for future legislation. University Council than the Act per mits. Have the actions of the council I now deal with the question of during that period been legitimate? under-graduate representation and I sincerely hope so, but I direct Mr. Cathie's suggestion that the age attention to the pr-oblem. If there is of this representative should be any question that the actions of the reduced to eighteen years-not council of the Melbourne university twenty years as proposed in the Bill. have not been strictly in accordance At this stage, I indicate that mem with the law during this period, bers of the Country Party will support amendments should be introduced as Mr. Cathie's foreshadowed amend soon as possible to validate the posi ment. It is logical to assume that, in tion. This Bill will add three mem the future, the age requirement will bers to the coQuncil of the University be gradually reduced, and I -see no reason why it should not be reduced of Melbourne and take away one, now. La Trobe University council has SoQ that there will be an increase 'Of just appointed its first under-graduate only two in the membership of the representative, ,Mr. Des. Kelly, who council. attended the last meeting of the One 'Of the most interesting aspects c-ouncil. I must say that it was .of the measure is the proposed refreshing and informative to have increase in the juni'Or representation. an under-graduate on the council. I An -additional representative of am certain that such representatives students-making three in all-will can add a great deal to the wisdom be appointed, and that extra student and maturity of the students and also assist in the deliberations of the will automatically be the president council. The Bill pr.oposes that the of the Students' Representative Coun representative .of Monash University cil. One member of the council who shall be removed from the council is a graduate student will be elected of the University of Melbourne. The by graduate students. Another diffi Country Party agrees with that pro culty arises, to which I direct the poQsal. As a matter of fact, it has The Hon. M. A. Clarke. Melbourne University [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] (Council) Bill. 2573 been found that it has not been neces (c) in paragraph (e) for the expression sary to have a different representa .. twenty-one" there shall be substituted the tive present at each university word "twenty"; council. I think a mistake might have The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON been made in appointing the Director (Minister of Education) .-1 move General of Education to all the That paragraph (.a) be omitted with the councils in the first place; it has been view of inserting the following paragraph :- necessary to afford him some relief "(a) for the words preceding paragraph (a) there shall be substituted the following because he finds it difficult to attend words :- all the meetings. "The council shall consist of not more than thirty-eight members but if a person Clause 7 deals with free places for who is not a member of the council is elect public servants. Without having ed to be Chancellor the council shall con heard the Minister in reply to Mr. sist of not more than thirty-nine members Cathie, there will be a substantial including the Chancellor so elected, and shall increase, percentage-wise, from 20 to be constituted as follows "." 30 in the number of free places. The net result of this amendment will Members of the Country Party point be to change the wording. out that if the number of free places The amendment was agreed to. to public servants is increased, the number of places that are available The Hon. I. R. CATHIE (South to other students in other categories Eastern Province) .-Paragraph (c), is naturally reduced. I am inclined provides that the age at which a per to think, without hearing the Minister, son can be a representative of under that the proposed increase from 20 graduates shall be reduced from 21 to 30 is substantial, and I shall await years to 20. For the reasons which an explanation from the Minister I indicated during the second-reading before making a decision on this debate, the Opposition believes there point. would be greater consistency if the age were set at eighteen years. My only regret is that it has been Therefore, I move- necessary to amend comparatively That, in paragraph (c), the word frequently the Acts relating to uni "twenty" be omitted with the view of versities. The Melbourne University inserting the word .. eighteen". Act is hard to interpret because it The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON has been amended on a number of (Minister of Education) .-As I 'Occasions. I ask the Minister or the hinted by interjection, this Bill was Government to ,consider the reprint introduced at the request of the ing of the Acts in their amended form council of the University of Mel more frequently. I have had difficulty bourne, which suggested that the age in understanding 'the Melbourne should be twenty years. My view University Act' and I have had to is that it makes little difference refer to several other Acts to under whether it is twenty or eighteen stand the provisions 'of the Bill. years. In nine cases out of ten, because it takes a little time for some The motion was agreed to. one to become favourably known at The Bill was read a second time the university, a person of at least and committed. twenty years of age would be elected tD represent students. The council of Clauses 1 and 2 were agreed to. the university may express some view Clause 3, providing, inter aUa- on this which could be considered in another place but, because 'Of the In sub-section (1) of section 5 of the Principal Act- view I have expressed, I am prepared (a) for the expressions .. thirty-four" to accept the amendment. and .. thirty-five" there shall be substituted the expressions "thirty-eight" and "thirty The amendment was agreed to, and nine" respectively; the clause, as amended, was adopted, as were clauses 4 and 5. 2574 Settlement Grants [COUNCIL.] and Mortgages Bill. Clause 6 was verbally amended, 1958 and the Land Settlement. Act and, as amended, was adopted. 1959 with respect to Crown grants Clause 7- and mortgages. Much of the mach In paragraph (e) in sub-section (1) of inery of the two Acts has been section 33 of the Principal Act for the word merged. The activities of the Soldier " twenty" there shall be substituted the Settlement Commission and the Rural word "thirty". Finance Corporation are now carried The Hon. I. R. CATHIE (South out by one body, the Rural Finance Eastern Province).-This clause pro and Settlement Commission. Over vides that there shall be 30 instead of the years, many non-contentious 20 free places at the University of amendments have been made to the Melbourne for persons employed by Act, and this Bill proposes another six the Victorian Government. I move- amendments which do not call for That the word "thirty" be omitted with objection. the view of inserting the word co sixty". As Mr. Clarke has stated, a change First, the Bill will enable the Com from 20 to 30 represents a large per mission to relinquish public land for centage increase, but 90 members of recreational or other public purposes. the Public Service have applied for The Commission already has power free places. Before they are able to to relinquish land which it has pur do so, they must have some success chased, but not land granted to it by in tertiary education, and more the Crown. As honorable members places should be available to them. will agree, none of the closer settle ment areas are complete without land The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON and buildings for recreation and other (Minister of Education).-The Gov public purposes. It is essential that ernment will not accept this amend the Commission should be able to set ment. The chairman of the Public aside land for these purposes without Service Board, after surveying the having to provide the necessary needs of the Victorian Public Service, facilities. It is more a municipal requested the amendment to the Act, matter to provide recreational as contained in the clause; he thought facilities and so on. The Opposition that an increase of 50 per cent. in the has no objection to this proposal. number of places would be ample. Furthermore, when consideration is The second provision of the Bill will given to increasing the number of allow the Commission to dispose of free places in the future, the possi land by relinquishing it to the Crown. bility of providing those places at Although I cannot remember one this Monash University or La Trobe Uni session, a measure providing for the versity instead of at the University revocation of reservations of Crown of Melbourne must be considered. land comes before Parliament almost The amendment was negatived, and every year. Reservations for particular the clause was agreed to. purposes are revoked and reserva tions for other purposes are made. The Bill was reported to the House The Bill will enable the Commission with amendments, and passed through to relinquish land to the Crown so its remaining stages. that it may be used for many different purposes. SETTLEMENT GRANTS AND MORTGAGES BILL. The third amendment proposed by The debate (adjourned from the Bill will allow the Commission to November 13) on the motion of the accept mortgages on freehold land. Hon. L. H. S. Thompson (Minister of The conditions on which it will accept Education) for the second reading of mortgages could extend beyond those this Bill was resumed. normally registered ·on a title. Para The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD graph (b) of proposed new sub (Doutta Galla Province).-This Bill section (3) of section 23 of the Act amends the Soldier Settlement Act provides that, if a mortgage is Settlement Grants [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] and -Mortgages Bill. 2575 executed, it shall be subject to of Crown land at Robinvale. Once such covenant and conditions as the land is disposed of, further exten- the Commission deems proper. sions will not be possible. People in They are not necessarily binding that district hope the demand for because the Transfer of Land Act dried fruits will again develop and previously provided that only the that this land may be used for plant Supreme Court could remove coven ing of vines. ants. I agree with the provisions relating I have dealt with the issue of to the credit accounts of the settlers Crown grants. A further amendment which will be of benefit to the man relates to the credits to be held and and his family. Those of us who applied for the purposes of the mort understand land transactions, do not gage conditions of the Commission. oppose the provisions relating to the There is no reason why a credit extension of the mortgage principle. cannot be held as a balance against The question of the regulations was a liability. It was proposed to refer to be referred to the Statute Law the question of the interpretation of Revision Committee, but that was not regulations to the Statute Law done. The members of my party Revision Committee. This committee support the Bill and wish it a speedy would have had the benefit of expert passage. opinion and submissions. However, the Government has now decided to The motion was agreed to. short circuit the matter and make the necessary provisions in this measure. The Bill was read a second time, and passed through its remaining Sir PERCY BYRNES (North stages. Western Province) .-This Bill con tains a number of small but necessary amendments relating to the Rural LIQUEFIED GASES BILL. Finance and Settlement Commission. The debate (adjourned from Generally speaking, the members of December 3) on the motion of the my party support the Bill, although Hon. R. J. Hamer (Minister for Local they have some reservations about Government) for the second reading giving authority for the disposal of of this Bill was resumed. Crown land. In Robinvale, a certain The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT (Mel area of Crown land adjoining the bourne West Province).-This short irrigation settlement has been held but important measure relates to the for a number of years pending the storage, handling and transportation possibility of its being developed as of liquefied gases. Accidents have further vineyard areas. Because of occurred in the transportation of the over-production of dried vine various gases, and the Labor Pruty fruits, that plan was not proceeded believes that this Bill is necessary with, and the Commission has per and that some of its provisions are mitted the use of the land for dry worthy of its support. farming. Earlier today, I spoke with the Whilst my party agrees that the Minister for Fuel and 'Power to ascer opportunity should be given to the tain why helium had not been Commission to dispose of Crown included in the list of gases covered lands where necessary, particularly by the Bill. The honorable gentle man has advised me that if it be in the Heytesbury area, for the ex comes necessary helium will be change of lands for forest roads, and included at a later stage. Helium is also for recreational areas and school a product of gas and is used mainly sites, I hope the Commission will not for underwater diving especially out take this as a prelude to the disposal in Bass Strait. It can be dangerous 2576 Liquefied Gases [COUNCIL.] Bill. if mixed wrongly. ,However, the Min been highlighted in the last few days ister informed me that if necessary by the gas escape at the Marlin rig. helium can be prescribed under the This explosive force also makes it regulations. This was the only query necessary that road transport of gas that I had regarding the Bill. The should be undertaken with the Labor Party supports the measure, strictest safeguards in the interest of and wishes it a speedy passage so public health and safety. Gas will be that the storage, handling and trans transported f.or household and portation ·of liquefied gases can be industrial uses in the cDuntry areas properly regulated. where the freight factor is not great. In these circumstances, heavy indus The Hon. R. W. MAY (Gippsland tries will be located .on the water Province) .-The Country Party also front, particularly if they are export supports the Bill and acknowledges industries. that the discovery of natural gas will bring about an increasing demand The last issue of News from Mel for the transport .of gases such as bourne, issued by the Victoria Pro methane, ethane, ethylene and vinyl motion Committee states- chloride. Recently, I visited Houston WESTERNPORT: BHP MOVE and New Orleans in the United States One of the biggest land deals in Victoria of America and saw the progress that in recent times strengthens the view that had been made in the separation .of Westernport, 40 miles south-east of Mel bourne, is destined to become a new centre gases and their use in industries for Australian heavy industry. which have been especially estab Westernport Bay is considered to be one lished on the basis of these products. of the best natural deep water ports in the country. A major attraction for companies As the field of exploration and moving into the area is the vast oil and research extends, an increasing natural gas finds in the Bass Strait, just number of by-products will beob over 100 miles away. tained from natural gas, and the num The gases cDvered by the Bill ber of industries associated with will be those which will be trans these prDducts will increase. A map pDrted by road, rail and, in some of New Orleans indicates that about cases, by boat. In the Gulf of 900 industries have been established Mexico, I flew over areas where gas on the waterfront. Some use the by was being used to mine sulphur from products of natural gas, and ·others the ocean. The gas is transported to use gases which are extracted for the site and then injected down pipes producing and generating heat. Even to the ocean bed where the sulphur is the Colonial Sugar Refinery has an melted. Other gas is then forced extensive factory at New Orleans. through the pipes, and the liquid Gas is piped to the waterfront and sulphur is piped into insulated tanks theref.ore industries have sprung up and transported in liquid form to the along the Mississippi river where they mainland, where it is again processed can be serviced by ocean-going and brought back to a solid state. vessels to transport the manufactured It is essential that strict safeguards product. I believe the same pattern should be applied for the sake .of the will apply here. Indeed, I think the people employed in the industries. It south-east of Australia will have a large increase in population. is also necessary where gas is trans ported considerable distances in the I was amazed to see the degree ·country to service manufacturing of automation in regard to pipeline industries. Overseas, there was an systems. One wonderful safeguard absence of large-scale heavy indus was that, from a great distance from tries along the route of the pipeline the pipe, it was pDssible to isolate which were serviced by the pipeline. a section whenever a leak occurred. All industries based on export Dr This is very necessary because ·of the which have a high rail freight factor explosive force .of gas, which has are located on the waterfront. It Liquefied Gases [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2577 will require all the ingenuity of explosive nature of the gases. We man to preserve industry in country feel it will need all the ingenuity of areas. It appears that tanker the Government to ensure that the transport by boat or rail is gas is made available at an attrac excluded from the provisions of the tive price to country areas, in order Bill, although the loading and unload that there is not a complete deple ing is covered. I presume the Govern tion of industry in country areas ment, in its wisdom, has decided that away from the seaboard. On behalf the same danger does not exist on the of the Country Party, I sound that rail, particularly where it travels n.ote of warning. through open spaces, as would exist with road transport. The m.otion was agreed to. The one matter which concerns The Bill was read a second time the Country Party is whether the and committed. regulation-making powers under Clause 1 was agreed to. clause 22 are too wide. The clause provides that the Governor in Council Clause 2, relating to the repeal of may make regulations in respect to the Liquified Gas Act 1958. the conditions under which liquefied gas may be stored and transported; The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister the types and quantities of liquefied for Local Government) .-Mr. May gases; the forms of application; referred to the regulation-making specifications and insulations of powers of the Bill, as contained in tanks, cylinders and equipment used; clause 22. I admit that the list does the levels to which the eontainers appear formidable, but if it is may be filled; safety distances separ examined closely it will be seen that ating containers and equipment from there are hardly any regulation protected works, roads, streets, paths making powers which will not really and railway lines and any other require to operate under the Bill. places work or structure; standards After all, a great deal of detail must of construction, materials, efficiency be included in regulations relating to and so forth; the quality of liquefied the storage of dangerous gases. gases; the odourizati.on of liquefied gases; notification of accidents, and The Hon. R. W. MAY.-I was many other things. inquiring whether they went far enough. The Governor in Council may also make regulations to prescribe fees. The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-Since Mr. When I asked a question the other May raised this question, I have day, I had not had time to study the examined the various matters con Bill, but I notice that fees will be paid cerning which the Governor in for licences and permits. The regula Council may make regulations. Under tions will cover any matter or thing clause 22, the Governor in Council is which by this Act are required .or empowered to make regulations for permitted to be prescribed or neces or with respect to the forms of sary to be prescribed for carrying out application, notices and licences; the provisions of the Act. One wonders whether the regulation conditions, limitation and restrictions making powers will not be too wide to be contained in licences; the because the regulati.ons seem to methods by which containers may be cover a far greater area than does the filled with liquefied gases; safety Bill itself. Perhaps some .of these distances separating containers and matters should have been defined equipment for liquefied gases from more precisely in the Bill. protected works, and so on. Having The Co un try Party agrees that regard to the close scrutiny given to there is a need to provide for the all regulations by the Subordinate safety of the public because of the Legislation Committee, I am sure that 2578 Liquefied Gases [COUNCIL.] Bill. Mr. May need not worry concerning This amendment, if adopted, will the regulation-making powers of the exempt from the application of the Governor in Council. Act the transportation of liquefied gas The Hon. R. W. MAY.-The refer under the control of a harbor or port ence to safety distances intrigued me. authority. The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-The The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT (Mel safety distances vary considerably bourne West Province) .-It appears depending on the type of container that the subsequent amendments which is used and the type of gas that foreshadowed by the Minister for is stored. I cannot suggest how the Local Government could be termed regulation-making powers of the corollaries to the amendment which Governor in Council could be reduced. is now under consideration. There is The clause was agreed to, as were a danger inherent in the adoption of clauses 3 to 11. these amendments to which I direct the Minister's attention. Whilst I Clause 12, providing, inter alia appreciate that the various port (1) This Act shall not apply to- authorities are already governed by regulations which will ensure safe (c) the storage of liquefied gas which is being or is about to be processed handling of liquefied gases, it is pos in the process area of ·a refinery or sible that certain overseas vessels, factory in respect of ~hich ~ ce~ which conform to overseas standards, tificate issued under thIS sectIon IS may not be covered by the regula in force- tions when they are not berthed at a but shall apply to loading and unloading operations in the course port. I ask the Minister whether he of transportation by rail or on any envisages any difficulty or danger in ship or aircraft. this regard. The Han. R. J. HAMER (Minister The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Local Government) .-During the for Local Government) .-Mr. Knight, second-reading debate, I intimated who is referring more particularly to that representations had been received an amendment which I shall move to from the Melbourne Harbor Trust and clause 16, has directed attention to a other harbor trusts concerning this matter of great importance, namely, Bill, pointing out that already certain the extent to which an overseas provisions and regulations applied to vessel, which is not necessarily in a port areas. The harbor authorities port, but which is perhaps trading asked to be virtually exempted from outside the port in waters around the the provisions of this legislation on coast, will be compelled to comply the ground that their regulations were with the regulations under this legis adequate to ensure safety in the hition. If the vessels come within the handling of liquefied gases. The jurisdiction of the State, they can be amendments which I propose are compelled to comply with the regula solely confined to this aspect. They tions. If they are on the high seas will implement the view of the Gov outside the territorial limits-I shall ernment that the harbor trusts rightly not deal with that aspect now-they contend that they already have the means and ability to exercise adequate may be free to operate under all kinds control over dangerous gases. Accord of unsafe arrangements so long as ingly, I move- they do not come within our jurisdic tion. I assure Mr. Knight that vessels That the following new paragraph be inserted to follow paragraph (c) :- which enter a port will come under " (d) the transportation of liquefied gas this legislation. in an area under the control of a harbor or port authority or port officer or the load The amendment was agreed to, as ing or unloading of liquefied gas into or was a consequential amendment, and from any ship in any such area. or any operation or procedure connected wIth such the clause, as amended, was adopted, loading or unloading." as were clauses 13 and 14. Liquefied Gases [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] .. Bill. 457~ Clause 15, providing, inter alia that have been adopted by the Com (2) Where the Minister is satisfied that mittee, relate to the transportation (a) any premises or place used for the of liquefied gases in a boat in a port storage of liquefied gas immediately area. 1 move- before the coming into operation of That sub-clause (2) be omitted. this Act cannot at reasonable expense be made to comply with The amendment was agreed to. a requirement of this Act or the regulations; and The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Local Government) .-1 move- (b) everything reasonable has been done That the following sub-clause be inserted in relation to the premises or place to follow sub-clause (1):- to ensure a standard of safety "( ) A licence or permit under this approximating to that demanded by section- the requirement- (a) shall, in the case of a licence The Minister may issue a licence or permit for the transportation or permit in respect of the premises of liquefied gases in a boat, be sub or place. ject to the condition that the boat is not used for the transport of The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister liquefied gas on waters under the for Local Government) .-The amend control of a harbor or port autho rity or port officer without the prior ment, which 1 shall move to this consent of the relevant harbor or clause, is complementary to the one port authority or port officer; and which has just been adopted; it (b) may be subject to such other relates to the storage of liquefied conditions and to such limitations and restrictions (in addition to gases. The amendment will authorize those prescribed) as the Minister a port authority to have some say thinks fit." before a licence is issued in its area The amendment was agreed to, and for the storage of gas. Therefore, 1 the clause, as amended, was adopted, move- as were the remaining clauses. That the following new sub-clause be inserted to follow sub-clause (2) :- The Bill was reported to the House "( ) The Minister shall not issue a with amendments, and passed through licence or permit authorizing the storage its remaining stages. of liquefied gas in any premises or place situate in any area under the control of a harbor or port authority or a port officer WATER SUPPLY LOAN unless the applicant has obtained the con APPLICATION BILL. sent of the relevant harbor or port authority The debate (adjourned from or port officer to the storage of liquefied November 28) on the motion of the gas in those premises or that place." Hon. G. L. Chandler (Minister of The amendment was agreed to, and Agriculture) for the second reading the clause, as amended, was adopted. of this Bill was resumed. Clause 16, providing, inter alia The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (1) The Minister may issue a licence or (Doutta Galla Province) .-This is the permit for the transportation of liquefied regular Water Supply Loan Applica gases to the owner of any vehicle or boat tion Bill which is brought down at which complies with the requirements of about this time each year to give this Act and the regulations. Parliamentary authority for the ex (2) The Minister may issue such licence penditure of loan moneys for the pro or permit subject to any conditions limita vision of water supplies. Although tions and restrictions (in addition to those the financial provision in the Bill prescribed) as he thinks fit. relates to a period of a calendar year, the actual works which will be per The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister formed under this legislation relate to for Local Government) .-The last a financial year. As usual, the Minister two amendments, which are also com of Agriculture was good enough to plementary to the other amendments supply with the Bill an explanatory 2580 Water Supply Loan [COUNCIL.] Application Bill. memorandum from which it is Borthwick, a young man in politics apparent that the amount of loan who has a future in this Government. money made available in each of the In the light of the many problems past five calendar years has been that have been faced, the State Rivers approximately $30,000,000 and the and Water Supply Commission down actual expenditure in that period has the years has provided many good been in the vicinity of $18,000,000. facilities for the State. Obviously, because of the loss in the purchasing power of the $1 the simi This Bill is introduced at a much larity of the. amount of loan money happier time than was the case last made available each year means that year. Now we have water-we have less work is being carried out each been accused of wasting it-and year. the Minister is virtually walking in water. Last year there were only According to the explanatory mud flats, so we should be grateful memorandum, the State bears the for the breaking of the drought which largest portion of the capital liability, brought the conditions we are enjoy representing approximately 75 per ing today. The Bill makes provision cent., while the remaining 25 per cent. for a number of schedules, the first is borne by various trusts, commis being Cl State works-storages and sions, boards and authorities. A similar situation so far as capital headworks". This item of major liability is concerned relates to importance varies from year to sewerage works. year, as some works finish and other works begin. I wish to comment The history of loan application on one about which some discussion measures of this type is very interest has taken place in this House, as well ing. With the tapering off of gold as in another place. I refer to the discoveries in the mid 1850's and Chowilla dam in the north-west, on a lessening in the search for the River Murray. I have had the gold by those who had either privilege of looking over this dam site made fortunes or moderate in and having certain of its problems comes as a result of gold, a good explained to me by engineers who deal of land settlement took place. were then investigating its construc We live in a dry continent, and the tion. I was impressed by the state ar·eas where a lot of the gold was ments of South Australian people, discovered were not richly blessed who considered the dam to be of such with rivers or a water supply. There importance and to observe the com fore, settlers had to look for a con bination of the three States in relation tinuity of water supply, and this led to the dam development. For various to the Irrigation Act of 1886. History reasons the dam has not developed shows that 90 water trusts were along the lines planned. It is a shallow established during the period up to area to which a high rate of evapora 1905. Many of them got into severe tion would apply, and in respect of financial difficulties, and in 1905 the which a salinity problem would Water Act was introduced, by which apply. The build-up of the salt can the debts of the trusts were wiped off, not be coped with, which indicates and only one trust continued to the necessity to pipeline water in operate. Then the State Rivers and much of this north-western area. Water Supply Commission was set up. Neither the present Minister, nor At this stage, on behalf of the Op past Ministers, have been unaware of position, I should like to pay a the importance of pipelining the tribute to the Commission, to water rather than constructing a past Ministers who have administer number of small storages located ed the Commission throughout the throughout the State. If larger years, and to the present Minister, Mr. storages could be provided with The Hon. J. M. Tripovich. ~ Water Supply Loan [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Application Bill. 2581 better reticulation by pipeline, I am The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-Do you certain that this would be of greater not think it would be cheaper to benefit to the State than simply stor subsidize these farm storages? ing water in small storages. The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-That The use of underground water was may be so, but the Minister should developed in an organized manner in examine the New South Wales Act, 1964. This is an interesting develop as I am certain that some of the ment because in much of the north provisions applying there could with western area of Victoria, it is not a advantage be brought into operation question of where underground water in Victoria. will be found. I know the area where the present Minister of Water Supply The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-That spent part of his life, and I spent part matter has already been examined. of mine perhaps a little farther east. The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-I am He was at Murrayville and I was at most grateful to learn of that. I in Underbool. The water at Murrayville vite honorable members to examine was much better, and it was not a the New South Wales Year Book, question of where water would be which is available in the Parlia found, but where a bore would be mentary Library, and read the history sunk. Farther east at Walpeup, the of encouragement given to water quality of the water was some degrees supplies on farms in that State, and worse than sea water, but in the then consider what has been done in north-western part of the State the this State, which is sadly lacking in provision of underground water is this respect. In the north-western being developed, and I commend the part of the State, there is not much Commission for continuing these pro water available. Today fewer people jects. live in this region than was the case fifteen years ago. The growth rate of The private storage of water on this area is two per 1,000 people per farms is a matter which should be year, so that Melbourne has taken examined more closely, but the Com more migrants from some of the rural mission has no control over this areas than it has received from over matter because it comes under the seas. The reason for this is obvious control of the Soil Conservation power and water are two items which Authority. The farmer should be are absolutely essential to the com encouraged to make provision for the munity. storage of water on his own land. A lot of wa ter runs to waste year by The Bill before the House is a year, but the answer is to be found regular one, providing for works of not only in the provision of funds; a total sum of $30,100,000, which is advice and, possibly, assistance are to be allocated through the year. required. This may be provided by Moneys will be transferred from job means available to the Soil Conser to iob in relation to the development vation Authority, but only few ap difficulties that may apply. I have plications for assistance appear to already commended the Minister in have been made to the Rural Finance relation to the Geelong-Ballarat water and Settlement Commission. This scheme in another Bill. This type of may be because farmers do not know activity in relation to a 'town water of the assistance that is available to supply can be applied in other areas them, or they do not have sufficient of the State. I am sure that the Com incentive, or, again, do not under mission and the Minister will con stand the technical side of the prob tinue to ensure that Victoria receives lem. a good water supply. The work that 2582 Water Supply Loan [COUNCIL.] Application Bill. has been carried out to date is com seeking work. Economic condi mendable, but further features must tions are bringing about thilji be developed over the years. The position because today farming Opposition supports the measure. areas have to be larger to provide a living area for the people. The Hon. A. R. MANSELL (North Many people are leaving the country Western Province).-This Bill is one to reside in the city. Public servants of the measures that play an import who formerly worked in the country ant part in the economics of the return to the city when they retire, State, particularly to the farming yet many country towns have excel community. Over the past six years, lent water supplies and other facili there has been practically no varia ties including bowling clubs, swim tion in the amount of money made ming pools and golf courses. There available under loan Bills. Perhaps are also other people who wish to the most important requirement of remain in the country when they the State is water. The whole of our retire. I asked the head master of life and economy are dependent upon a high school why he remained in the it. Australia is a primary producing country when he retired. He told me country. It is all very well to say that that he was born in the country and industry can do this and that, but that as he had retired he was no longer in primary production, with the irri interested in the rat race. He could gation of the land, production is con play golf and bowls and go fishing tinuing all the time and resources are when he liked. In addition, he found not being depleted. There is much the people friendly and he knew talk about the millions of dollars be everybody in the district. He ing earned from exports of iron ore commented that water and electricity from Western Australia, and so on, supplies were available. He also liked but when that is finished there will the social life in country areas. just be a hole in the ground with nothing to replace it. Water plays The standard of living in a country an important part in the community town depends to a large extent on the and deserves far greater considera availability of water. People can do tion. without electricity, but they cannot do without water. It is interesting There has been a continual cry in. to note that 22 new sewerage authori Melbourne that the city is short of ties are being established in country water. The Melbourne and Metropoli areas. Since I have been a member tan Board of Works has come in for of Parliament there has been a con a great deal of criticism because of tinual demand for the provision of the lack of planning and foresight in sewerage facilities. I am interested in regard to water storages. I do not the problems facing small country know why the Board records its water towns which are now installing storage figures in gallons, instead of sewerage systems, and in this regard acre-feet, but it is time that a com I give great credit to an officer of the mon term, such as acre-feet, was used State Rivers and Water Supply Com in the measurement of water be mission, Mr. Hal Richmond, who cause it is easier to calculate and played an important part in providing understand. ways and means of installing these systems. Of course, septic tank sys The Country Party feels that this tems are proving beneficial to many Bill should go further. It was interest small country districts. ing to note that Mr. Tripovich re ferred to people going from the coun It is noticeable that in those towns try to the city and stated that where sewerage facilities have been there is not a sufficient increase of installed progress has been made in population in the country areas. other directions. New buildings are People leave the country for the city being constructed and farmers are Water Supply Loan [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Application Bill. 2583 retiring to these towns instead of Now it is an economic area and even coming to the city. There are 77 during the drought I was pleased to water trusts in Victoria, and the loan see the work done on the consolida allocation under this Bill to these tion of farms. trusts is only $4,600,000. The amount However, a better water supply is received by each district will be in needed. There are miles of channels sufficient even though many of them through sand ridges and around sand are now self-supporting and self hills, and the farmers fill their dams governed. There is a further alloca twice a year. A large quanity of water tion of $1,000,000 for 23 new water is wasted by this process, and the schemes. time has come when the pumping In travelling around country towns system must be replaced. If I notice a difference between the it is not, tremendous problems will quality of water brought about by be created. In places it is possible to chlorination and filtration. Water is push one's finger through the rusting supplied to the City of Mildura and main. The State Development Com parts of the Shire of Mildura from the mittee made recommendations in same source. Other parts of the regard to the type of system that shire are supplied by the State Rivers should be installed, and young and Water Supply Commission Mer engineers from the State Rivers and bein being an example. The' dirty Water Supply Commission went to no water used to supply the City of Mil end of trouble to assist in designing dura comes straight from the river a system that would work by pump and is pumped to a tower. It con ing. They also designed a type of tains all sorts of solids and is not reservoir that would allow foor pres ideal for a water supply. Across the sure by gr,avitation through pipelines, river in New South Wales the same with the settlers taking over at a water is used but it is filtered and certain stage. chlorinated. It is pumped to a much A similar system is being operated higher tower and the result is a in areas controlled by the State Rivers better pressure of water. The Gov and Water Supply Commission, and in e~n.n~ent shoul.d .examine the pos two places water is brought across sIbIlIty of brmgmg these various the border from South Australia by groups together and supplying water this means. Miles of pipes have been from the one source. For example laid on top of the ground and several Merbein and Redcliffs could be sup concrete and steel tanks have been plied by the State Rivers and Water installed. Ball taps are installed on Supply Commission. Other towns each tank and as it is filled the water throughout the State could benefit is cut off and the next tank begins to in a similar manner. fill. The usual practice is that Three or four years ago the sys tanks are located at the point tem operating at Werrimull in the where four paddocks adjoin. The Millewa district was directed to the area has proved to be ideal sheep attention of the State Development country. It may not be as good as Committee. The supply for stock and the Western District, but it is serving domestic purposes in this area was its purpose. The lack of water is pre provided by a pipeline. Some people venting further development. If the had said that this area was not worth system to which I have referred can developing and providing with a be carried out economically in South water supply, but I disagreed. It was Australia, there is no reason why a settled under a Government settle similar system cannot be installed to ment scheme and the settlers faced assist the farmers at Werrimull in the many difficulties in the early years. Sir Percy Byrnes, with the co Millewa district. However, there is no operation of various Governments provision in this Bill to permit such ,a did a great deal to help the settlers: scheme to be installed. 2584 Water Supply Loan [COUNCIL.] Application Bill. A sum of $75,000 has been allo Commission and the Commonwealth cated to provide meters for private Development Bank to provide finance diverters. This amount is to be ex for the settlement, but nothing is being pended throughout the State and not done to prevent the adverse effects of merely along the River Murray. I applying water to land. In view of believe this to be a wise move the fact that the State Rivers and because salinity problems are arising Water Supply Commission has com as a result of too much water being plete control over every stream, river, used for irrigation. Farmers should creek, water channel, lake and know how much water they are using. lagoon in Victoria it should also be At present there is no relationship responsible for drainage. Along the between the water requirements of an River Murray thousands of acres of area and the amount of water land are under irrigation, but the actually used. Many thousands of farmers have great difficulty in get acres are being ruined because they ting rid of their drainage water. In are becoming salted as a result of some cases it is possible to estab inadequate drainage facilities being lish drainage basins on land owned provided to take away excess water. by the Forests Commission, but the In areas under the control of the Commission is not keen on the idea State Rivers and Water Supply Com if it is likely that a few trees will be mission meters are 'installed and there killed. has been a noticeable reduction in the The Lands Department refuses amount of water used. If a farmer to accept any responsibility and the has a meter he is conscious of the State Rivers and Water Supply Com quantity of water he is using. It has mission does not show a great deal been suggested that meters for pri of interest. What are the farmers to vate diverters must be provided by do with this water? the diverters. If a person goes into a grocer's shop and buys a pound of I am not suggesting that the sugar he does not have to provide his Commission should install evapora own scales. Similarly if he buys a tive basins because that is the yard of cloth at another shop he does responsibility of the private diverters. not have to provide the tape measure. However, the Commission should As the State Rivers and Water make areas ·available for the estab Supply Commission is selling, con lishment of evaporative basins. At troning and ·allocating the water, it present some farmers are pumping should provide the measuring devices. drainage water I! miles away from The meters could be maintained from their property and my sons have the money received as water rates told me that they ·are prepared to by the Commission. The same prin pump the water 3 miles if they can ciple should apply to those farmers find somewhere to pump it to. It in irrigation districts who are using is time that the State Rivers and water supplied by the Commission. Water Supply Commission and the Lands Department got together and The use of water brings about decided to make areas available for problems associated with salinity, and this purpose. this is occurring along the Murray, Goulburn and Campaspe rivers where Because of lack of control by the private diverters are operating. It is State Rivers and Water Supply all very well for the State Rivers and Commission in the past, many thous Water Supply Commission to sell the andsof acres have been over-irrigated water to the private diverters and and the water level has built up. for the Government, through the The result is that salty water is now Lands Department and the Depart being used for irrigation. It is also ment of Agriculture, to recommend being put into streams and into the the opening of land for settlement, and water used for town supplies. for the Rural Finance and Settlement Unless there is an effective drainage The Hon. A. R. Mansell. Water Supply Loan [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Application Bill. 2585 system which takes the excess water the lower reaches. There have been away below, there will be a high salt many complaints about salinity, and content at the top. If there is no there is a need -~or a holding effective drainage, water will be lost basin in the lower reaches in order due to transpiration and evaporation, that water can be held at peak flood but the salt content will be increased time with sufficient flow to give a in the soil and in the plants them wash through to remove salinity. A selves. If this continues, there is a special committee of experts is to limit to the economic life of the par make a report on the problem. This ticular land. It is time that the report has not yet been received 'and, Governmen t seriously considered in the meantime, vast quantities of ways and means of providing land in water are being wasted. drainage basins in to which saline The Government must reconsider water can be pumped. its approach to the problem to see Because nothing has been done in whether or not the salinity can be the past, millions of dollars are now stopped upstream. In addition to being spent to overcome the problem. extra storages being provided up Bar creek and Lake Hawthorn are stream, there must be storages examples. Considerable expenditure below. The Hume reservoir has is involved in dealing with the prob played a big part in maintaining water lem there. In -addition, very large supplies, but, with the Snowy sums are being spent on the New Mountains scheme coming into opera South Wales side of the Murray. tion, so much extra water will come Victoria's quarter-share of the down that the Hume reservoir will not works being carried out by the River be able to hold it. A great deal of Murray Commission amounts to water is coming from the catchment $470,000. I point out that water is area; and the State cannot afford to being lost from the River Murray just postpone its planning -any longer. as it is flowing to waste in Mel Only a limited amount of finance -is provided in the Bill for surveys and bourne at the present time. Many research. thousands of acre-feet of water are flowing down the Murray. From The motion was agreed to. the front door of my home, I can see The Bill was read a second time the vast expanse of water which is and committed. flowing down to the sea. This has Clause 1 was agreed to. been the position for many months; Clause 2 (Issue and application of yet not twelve months ago everyone money from Loan Funds for purposes was crying about the lack of water specified in schedule). and the Minister was receiving depu The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Min tations from people along the River ister of Agriculture) .-1 commend Murray who were begging for water. the two honorable members for their In this connexion, I pay a tribute thoughtful contributions to ~his to the Minister and to the chairman debate. Mr. Tripovich appears to and staff of the State Rivers and have a good knowledge of the subject Water Supply Commission for the and Mr. Mansell, of course, has built manner in which they handled the up a practical knowledge of it problem in trying to ensure that throughout his life. I join with them everybody got some water, and for in commending the Minister and the their courtesy to the deputations they chairman and members of the State received. At that time each person Rivers and Water Supply Com thought he was faring the worst and mission for the way in which they wanted his full issue of water without handled the most difficult situation regard to the requirements of others. which was brought about by an At present water is going to unprecedented drought. I point out waste, and to mitigate this money to Mr. Mansell that the cost of the should be spent on projects around proposed works in connexion with 2586 Public Works Loan [COUNCIL.] Application Bill. the Millewa stock and domestic Council on the consideration of the supply to which he referred will be Bill in Committee. approximately $2,000,000. These It was ordered that the message be works have been included in sub referred to the Committee on the Bill. missions made to the Commonwealth, and planning in connexion with the project is well advanced. It is not PUBLIC WORKS LOAN possible at this time to indicate when APPLICATION BILL. the works will be carried out. The debate (adjourned from Nov Australia is the driest continent in ember 28) on the motion of the Hon. the world. When one considers that G. L. Chandler (Minister of Agri South America has an annual rainfall culture) for the second reading of of about 53 inches, South Africa, 26 this Bill was resumed. inches, Europe, 25 inches, North The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD America, 24 inches, Asia, 24 inches, (Doutta Galla Province).-This is a and that Australia has an average of Bill to sanction the issue and applica only 17 inches, it is apparent that the tion of loan money for public works. conservation of water is vital to this I can remember similar Bills over a country's welfare. long period. In earlier years a Mr. Mansell referred to popu measure of this type made provision lations, and it is interesting to note for the expenditure of perhaps $10,000, that the populations of Shepparton, and in later years the amount rose Swan Hill, Albury and Wodonga have to perhaps $100,000. We are now increased at a greater rate than those used to applying huge sums, such as in almost any other part of Victoria. the $113,000,000 contained in this Bill, The reason for the increases is the and they pass through without a availability of water, power and quiver in a comparatively short time. industry. I do not think there can However, the debate on this Bill gives be big population increases where honorable members an opportunity to there is no industry. As a matter of discuss various works which it is interest, the highest percentage of proposed to carry out in the ensuing po pula tion increase in the census period. period from 1961 to 1966 was in The various loan application Bills Shepparton, and the percentage popu that are passed by Parliament are lation increase of Geelong was only adding to the public debt of Victoria slightly ahead of that of Swan Hill. at an alarming rate. In addition, The clause was agreed to, as were loans are made available under the the remaining clauses and the Commonwealth-State Housing Agree schedule. ment. The ordinary budgetary provi The Bill was reported to the House sions supply the interest that is paid without amendment, and passed on these measures. The ordinary through its remaining stages. person would imagine that all of this money comes directly out of revenue, FISHERIES BILL. but in fact much of it is reimbursed This Bill was received from the by public bodies which have the bene Assembly, and, on the motion of the fit of loans supplied through various Hon. G. L. Chandler (Minister of loan application Bills. The House Agriculture), for the Hon. V. O. has just dealt with the Water Supply DICKIE (Minister of Health), was Loan Application Bill, through which rea:a a first time. money is applied for public bodies LIQUOR CONTROL (AMENDMENT) which repay both the capital and BILL. interest on the sum inv-olved. There This Bill was returned from the fore, the State is not as badly off as Assembly with a message relating to some people may imagine. Neverthe an amendment suggested by the less, there is a tremendous growth in Public' Works Loan [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Application Bill. 2587 the repayments of capital and inter the same proportion of debt and est as a result of loan application Commonwealth surplus revenues Bills. were applied in the two spheres. If I suppose it is not our responsi this were done, the Commonwealth bility to worry about future measures would shoulder its fair share of the for the simple reason that we will not obligations to repay loans foOr pos be here when the majority oOf the terity, the same as the State, and the repayments of these loans, which State would get the same benefit extend over 53 years, become due. as the Commonwealth from Con Members pass these measures lightly solidated Revenue. The Common because we do not have to worry wealth is able to construct a about the consequences. The immedi $6,000,000 lake in Canberra for the ate urgent need of the woOrks con benefit and recreation of the com tained in loan application Bills con munity, and I am noOt quibbling at the cern us electorally, and we take some desirability of this project. The Com interest in having the money spent monwealth can act in this manner as fast as possible. However, the without liability in any sense in a question of repayment will certainly capital way, but in relation to more concern later generations. Just as we necessary works in the State sphere are paying for what past communities the State has to go on paying interest have done, future generations will foOr 53 years. This is a ridiculous state have to pay infinitely more. of affairs. The ridiculous aspect of loan appli So far as Public Works Loan cation proOvisions is that most of the ApplicatioOn Bills are concerned, over money is provided from Common a number of years the principle of wealth Consolidated Revenue. Only ensuring that all the items are pro a certain proportioOn is actually raised perly productive and properly on the open market by means of developmental has been ignored. In Commonwealth loans. Those loans many instances, the items relate to are actually subject to interest, bpt the provision of a coat of paint or the rest Is supplied from surplus some minor works, the cost oOf which revenues of the Commonwealth. In should be the liability of the present its wisdom, the Commonwealth, as community. It is useless to condemn a prudent bookkeeper, applies for its young people because they live in a purposes all the extra Consolidated frivolous manner or adopt a frivolous Revenue-with which it undertakes attitude towards balancing income capital works-and makes available and expenditure, when Parliament to the States moneys raised by loans which is composed of members who on the open market and on which ought to have some sense of responsi it requires interest to be paid. If bility does not apply the same there are any Consolidated Revenue principle in the State arena. One surpluses, that Government also re cannot expect the individual to act quires normal interest payments to be any differently ffoom Parliament. Un made on sums provided. The result is less Parliament sets an example, I that the States are getting further into am afraid the State is going to get debt and are faced with enormous deeper into the mire by coOntinuing liabili ties in respect of repayments to apply loan funds on 53-year repay and interest charges. Many of these ment terms to carry out works loans are more or less book entries, which are not truly developmental because the Commonwealth has to and which should be met from make higher and higher payments to revenue. For example, if a coat of the States by means of income tax paint is applied to a building in the reimbursements. hottest part of the State, it It is time that a formula was will last only a few years. The adopted under the Commonwealth State is applying these funds about States financial agreement whereby eight times over the period oOf the 2588 Public Works Loan LCOUNCIL.] Application Bill. repayment of the loan just to put a is coming when a greater proportion coat of paint on a wooden building of national resources ought to be in the northern part of the State. diverted into the public sectors. I It is ridiculous to carryon in this can see the Minister of Education's way. Until the situation is remedied, hair becoming thinner day by day the oommunities of the future will be because the honorable gentleman is injured. The Government should worrying about the problems of commence some sort of measurable the Education Department. Even pruning. I realize its difficulties, and the huge sum of $36,000,000 that I am not blaming the Government has been alloca ted for this altogether for the existing situation, purpose will not cope with but the State should commence a the needs in the educational field. measurable policy of gradually elim In my early days, the Melbourne High inating the items that should be School, which was then known as charges on revenue and gradually the continuation school, was the dr-opping them fr-om loan application only one in existence. Subsequently, Bills. high schools were established at I notice that the sum to be applied Geelong, Coburg, Williamstown and in relation to schools, hostels, Essendon, and then one or two teachers' colleges, and so on is others were built. Camberwell $36,000,000. The Labor Party formed High School was established in the Government in 1952, and Sir 1938 and no other was built until the Percy Byrnes preceded me as Min high school at Heidelberg, a concrete ister of Public Works. Sir Percy had and steel structure of some 25 or 26 a sum of $5,000,000 to expend on rooms, was constructed some fifteen schools, and most of that amount or sixteen years later. That indicates was committed by contracts carried the slow growth of secondary educa over from the previous year. When tion. From then on, there was an I became Minister of Public Works explosion in the secondary field of at the beginning of December, 72 per education. Perhaps the Box Hill High cent. of that $5,000,000 had been School was built within that sixteen expended, and I was left with about year period. 28 per cent. with which to carry on Victoria has not yet caught up with for another seven months. Times its educational needs. When I was have changed considerably since then, Minister of Public Works, I was told due to the increased populaUon, that the provision of an additional changes in money values, and the 500 class-rooms a year for three years improvement in the availability of would solve the accommodation money-even of loan funds from the problems of the Education Depart Commonwealth. ment. I said that the Department A long time ago the Minister for could have 500 class-rooms for the Local Government and I had a discus first year in which I was Minister sion on the merits of a greater diver of Public Works. The Minister of sion of the resources of the commun Education knows that 498 class ity from the private sphere to the pub rooms were built in that year. In the lic sphere. I do not think the Minister following year, 647 were provided. differed greatly from me, although The number required was still grow he did not say too much at the time. ing when the present Government In a free and affluent society, I sup took office, and within a year or two pose some expenditure on silly more than 1,000 class-rooms a year items is inevitable. However, it is were needed. Despite the long period not right that the community should that has elapsed since then, the go on postponing works of a vital problem r-emains. The effects of the nature while worthless things are education explosion were sadly under made by industry and ,consumed in estimated by the education auth the private sectors, from which pos orities in this State, and Victoria has terity gets no real benefit. The time still not caught up with the needs. The Hon. Samuel Merrifield. Public Works Loan [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Application Bill. 2589 Members of the council of the was needed somewhere. An alloca Victoria Institute of Colleges tion should be made by Parliament, endeavour to keep its activities con to each organization, and each should fidential, but I can say that the build work within the limits of its provision. ing committee of the institute faces tremendous problems in attempting There are 79 items in the schedule to meet the needs with the available to the Bill, one or two fewer than in money. Possibly, the Minister already other years. In earlier days, the has a list of works which will be Public Works Loan Application Bill necessary in the next triennium; contained about half a dozen items, certainly, the needs will be vastly except in extraordinary years, when greater than those for the present twelve items might have been in triennium. I do not know how the cluded. The works provided for are State can make sufficient finance many and varied. available or whether the Common The Commonwealth has been sadly wealth Government will come to the backward in assisting the State to party. Unless the Commonwealth is provide mental health facilities. generous, the State will come nowhere Thirteen years ago, the Common near solving its tertiary education wealth offered Victoria $2,000,000 for problems. capital works on a $2 for $1 subsidy basis. In those days the main diffi These problems arise from a greater cuty was to get projects under way. population and also from the higher Nowadays, the building force has education standards that are required developed greatly and the problems in the present day. At one of commencing works or obtaining time, tertiary education was thought contractors have disappeared, but to be necessary only for profes there is a great deficiency of capital sional men, but it is now necessary funds. Improvements are sadly for those in many types of skilled needed at many mental health insti occupations. I do not believe it is tutions to make them the first yet possible accurately to foresee educational needs. Overseas countries class places that they should be. have worse problems than Victoria, I can remember when Dr. Jones but because of greater development was the Inspector of Mental Hygiene. there they are possibly not so I recall Dr. Dax's arrival in Victoria apparent. If Victoria is to reach the to take charge and the fights that he stage of development attained in over had over the years with Governments. seas countries, we shall have many Through the press and in other ways, headaches. I can see the day ~hen he set about awakening the con the Minister of Education will be science not only of the community but wearing a wig in the House. of Parliament; he fought a great lone battle. It is to the credit of Dr. Dax I am glad that the Victoria Insti that, in spite of the difficulties he tute of Colleges and colleges of advanced education have been faced, he stuck to the job and brought separated administratively, because about a greater improvement in when they were combined many mental institutions than was ever en problems were created. It was visaged prior to his coming to this essential for current expenditure to be State. However, the needs of the dealt with separately. Colleges of Mental Health Authority are still advanced education come within the great. I hope the Government presses jurisdiction of the Victoria Institute on with development in this field. A of Colleges, which could not precisely sum of 1$6,000,000 is allocated for determine its own budget, as some mental hospitals and institutions, but body with the Minister's ear was the proposed expenditure for the suggesting that the budget should be current financial year is only cut down because a new high school $4,835,000. Session 1968.-95 2590 Public Works Loan [COUNCIL.] Application Bill. Since its form was changed in it shows that the Government is never 1953, the Hospitals and Charities lost for a way of overcoming its Commission has rationalized the pro financial difficulties. That is the sign gramme of hospital building in this of the good government. There is a State. At one time, it was thought belief that this method of accounting that, because of the development iIi began with Sir Arthur Warner. I am medical science, the demand for not sure that that is true, but the hospital accommodation would de practice has been followed since his crease. It was believed that many day. Mr. Merrifield and I belong to conditions would be dealt with at the the company of former Ministers of patient's home or on a clinical basis Public Works, but I shall not go into instead of his occupying a hospital what we did. We had ways of obtaining bed. It is probably true that many revenue, but we did not handle so much illnesses are treated in those ways, money. but the demands on hospital accom modation have increased. The Com The wide range of works men mission still has a great need for more tioned in the schedule indicates what funds. I have not yet had time to needs to be done in this State. study thoroughly the answer to the I am interested to know what amount question on hospitals which I asked of money is to be spent on Aboriginal yesterday, but I am not certain that a welfare this year. The total amount full range of hospital priorities in provided is $800,000; the sum of Victoria has been properly allocated. $350,000 is to be found by the State The comment could apply also to and $220,000 will come from the Com school priorities. I do not blame the monwealth Government. Probably a present Minister of Education, but I total sum of $500,000 will be spent on believe that many priorities were Aborigines. I understand that some allocated for reasons other than need. Aborigines, who have already applied The Labor Party offers no objection for farms, will be taught how to to the Bill. utilize the land. Sir PERCY BYRNES (North I am also interested in the work Western Province) .-The Public done by the Marathon centre for Works Loan Application Bill presents spastic children. Two fires at this the House with a monumental centre burnt out the building, but the exercise each year. The 79 items in Education Department is providing the schedule cover a wide range of money to rebuild it. These efforts are works. The sum of $5,000 is provided for Young Farmers' Clubs, $4,000 for appreciated. However, inflation is the Council of Adult Education, catching up with the Spastic $7,000,000 for universities, and Children's Society, which is finding $32,000,000 for the Education Depart it almost impossible to bridge the gap ment. The total allocation is between receipts and ,expenditure. $113,000,000 but the expenditure in In recent years, the Government the current financial year is expected has provided some measure of assist to be $90,000,000. ance for the spastic children, but this From that sum, the Public Works assistance could be increased. I Department will obtain an amount of appreciate that increased demands revenue which is not stated but about have been made for hospitals, schools which an intelligent guess may be and so on, but for many years the made. I should expect that from the spastic children have had to battle provision of '$90,000,000 about their own way. I hope they will now $12,000,000 will be taken by the Public be given more consideration. It is Works Department as payment for the comparatively easy for spastic carrying out of works. This is one way children to get treatment at a centre of obtaining revenue from loan funds. in Melbourne because buses are pro This is an enterprising approach and vided to transport ,children to day Public Works Loan [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Application Bill. 2591 centres. However, difficulty is experi spend this money because, if you do, enced in country districts, and hostels inflation will 'Occur". The banks have should be provided to cater for these already increased the interest rates children and their future needs. I to farmers so that the people will not appeal to the Government to stretch have too much money to spend. Aus the finance a little further to ensure tralia has a tremendous future. that hostels are built for country Earlier today Mr. May informed sufferers from cerebral palsy. The the House what is happening in National Council of Women has been other parts of the world. Aus interested in this subject for some tralia is only on the threshold of its years. I believe they have already development, and we should tackle approached the Minister of Health l our affairs with boldness and vision. and I commend their efforts. If the Cammonw·ealth Government inhibits this development by telling It is staggering to learn of the us that we must not do certain things, expenditure on education. The Australia will get nowhere. amount provided for education includ ing schools and universities in this I shall not read the schedule to the Bill exceeds $40,000,000 aut of a total Bill. Honorable members are aware of expenditure of $90,000,000. I do not the works that need to be done. The want to be accused of not being provision in the Bill of $90,000,000 receptive to the needs of education, needs to be increased by at least 50 but the requirements of water supply per cent. New schools should be built have been sadly neglected in the past and residences are required for six years. An amount of $18,000,000 teachers in country areas. Apparently has been allocated for this purpose, no money is available to build houses but it must be realized that because for teachers thraughout the State. the value of money has decreased by This is sheer bad administration. 25 per cent., the effectiveness of the Maybe it has something to do with allocations has also been reduced by the State, but certainly it is the result that percentage. The provision of of the present relationship existing water for Victoria is urgent. We between the Commonwealth and the seem to be imbued with the idea of States. I approve of the Bill, and I education. Whilst I agree that this hope that circumstances will change expenditure is necessary, other im to enable Victoria to get the money portant developments of Victoria necessary to carry out the prajects must not be inhibited. that require to be done. It is entirely wrong that the loan The Hon. H. M. HAMILTON (Higin programme must be presented to the botham Province).-In the circum Commonwealth Government in the stances, my comments must be brief. usual way. Tremendous demands are This Bill authorizes the ·expenditure made an defence, but Australia is a of $113,000,000 of loan funds. I growing community and it is wrong emphasize the points made by Mr. that the Commonwealth Government Merrifield and Sir Percy Byrnes that does not fully face up to its responsi these loan funds represent to a large bilities. One cannot help feeling that degree surplus revenue of the Com our Parliamentary brethren in Can monwealth on which Victoria pays berra remove themselves to their interest, and at the same time the ivory towers, lock themselves up like Commonwealth Government is financ hermit crabs and know nothing of ing its own public works out of Australian affairs outside of their own little circle. They do nat fully realize revenue. This aspect of the Com the needs of the Australian people. monwealth financial structure must be re-examined and some statesman A camplete revision of outlook is like approach must be made to the required. It is all very well for some problem of an equitable sharing of the economist to say, "You must not national debt. 2592 Public Works Loan [COUNCll...] Application Bill. Mr. Merrifield highlighted the great At the beginning of the school problem in education. Of the total year, the Frankston paper published provision made in the Bill, 27 per photographs of the school. One cent. is earmarked for education depicted the dilapidated roof of a school buildings. Mr. Merrifield em building that was built prior to the phasized the failure of Governments first world war, and which has been in the 1930's and the 1940's to appre verbally condemned by the Public ciate the future needs of education. Works Department. The photo The Minister of Education is now graphs show gaping holes in the faced with the problem of making guttering, and the caption indicates 10 cents do the work of a $1. to the layman that when it rains there is little chance ·of The sum of '$3,500,000 has been made available to the National the water reaching the drain pipe. Gallery. The State of Victoria and A further photograph shows a young the Government must be really proud child trying to get a drink of water at of this Gallery. It is an asset for which a hall half a mile away. These photo' future generations will thank us. I graphs were taken almost twelve hope the Minister will press on with months ag'O, and the school commit tee has received only a series of stage 2 of this magnificent p~oject. broken promises. Today, it is not An amount of $13,000,000 is possible to take photographs showing to be made available to the Hos the guttering, because in the mean pitals and Charities Commission. time it has disappeared. Again, the Commission is confronted with the problem of making The present enrolment at the 10 cents do the work of $1. school is 204 pupils, and only 65 of The growing needs of the aged are these children are in permanent class being catered for. Undoubtedly, be rooms which have been condemned. cause of the development 'Of medical The roof 'Of the school leaks, and it is science and the increase in the aver infested with rats and possums. On age age of ,our population, the prob a visit I made to the school last week, lem 'Of the aged will be greater in the I saw that the possums had not future. I am pleased to see that some been very respectful to a photograph provision is made for the aged, and I of Her Majesty the Queen. This is hope that this will continue. typical of the situation that exists at the school. The motion was agreed to. Eigh ty children are accommodated The Bill was read a second time in two portable class-rooms and the and committed. remaining 59, consisting of prepara tory and first grade students, are The clauses were agreed to. taught in the local hall, half a mile Schedule. away, which also has a leaky, rat infested roof. The hall is completely The Hon. I. R. CATHIE (South inadequate for the purposes for Eastern Province) .-In relation to which it is being used. Item 1 of the schedule, recently, on the adjournment of the House I I want to deal briefly with the raised the question of the shocking promises that have been made to conditions existing at the Langwarrin indicate the extent to which the local people have been let down by the State School, and I pleaded with the Government. Since 1963, each annual Minister to state when tenders would report of the district inspector of be called for the construction of a schools has stressed the urgency of a new school building. It is clear that new State school being built at Lang the parents and the school committee warrin. In December, 1965, the com believe that they are being ignored mittee thought it was making pro by the Government. gress because Mr. Rossiter, the Public Works Loan [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Application Bill. 2593 Assistant Minister of Education, March or April, and that full weight advised, "We have decided that the would be given to the needs of Lang new school building will consist of warrin. Again, the local people six class-rooms". At that time, there believed progress was being made. were 144 pupils at the school; today the number is 204 and there will In the middle of this year, Mr. possibly be between 240 and 250 next Crellin, secretary of the Education year. Instead of a new six class-room Department, wrote to me that it was school, the present requirement is for lioped tenders would be invited an eight class-room school. during the 1968-69 financial year. In October, Mr. Rossiter wrote to Mr. In April, 1966, in a further letter, Dunstan, M.L.A., and me, in Mr. Rossiter said that the erection dicating that it was not possible of a new school building at Lang to state precisely when the Public warrin had been included in the Works Department would be in a current building programme. The position to invite tenders for the new Minister also expressed regret that it school. That summary suggests the was not possible to give priority to long history of broken promises. replacements over new schools in fast-developing areas where the need The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPsoN.-Mr. was more pressing. The Langwarrin Rossiter did not specify any particular school population has increased by year ; therefore there were no broken 30 per cent. ,over the past four years promises. and, in 1969, there could be a further The Hon. I. R. CATHIE.-I remind 25 per cent. increase. the Minister that we were being told At the end of 1966, a further letter as early as 1967 that the school was received from Mr. Rossiter in occupied a high position on the which he said that the Department priorities of schools. Are honorable was aware of the need for replace members to believe that since the end ment of the existing building and that of 1967 no progress has been made in provision had been made in the build the priori ties of schools? No wonder ing program'me. Again, two years ago, parents are becoming disgusted at the school committee felt that it was the delay. making progress because it had On the 7th August of this year, received a promise that the building the secretary of the school committee would be constructed in the very wrote to the Education Department, near future. This belief was con and he has not received a reply. firmed twelve months later when Mr. I ask the Minister how long must Rossiter wrote that the erection 'Of school committees wait before they a replacement school on a new site get replies from a responsible Depart was included in the Department's ment or the Minister on a matter building programme, that the school studded with a long history of delays. occupied a high priority amongst In a letter to the Minister of Educa schools, and that the position would tion in November of this year, the be reviewed early in 1968. Again, in secretary of the school committee December, 1967, Mr. Rossiter wrote stated- that a replacement school had been I have written to the Education Depart included in the Department's build ment on the 7/8/1968 requesting a starting ing programme. date on the building of the new school, or in the event of this not taking place before At the beginning of the school 1969 that a minimum of two portables be made available for Langwarrin. I have not year on the 22nd February, 1968, Mr. as yet received a reply. I am sure that you Rossiter again wrote that the erection can imagine the anxiety that is now be of the new building occupied a high setting the committee and parents. place in the programme for replacing I again remind the Minister of the existing buildings, that the pro conditions existing at the hall. For gramme would be reviewed during example, the regulations prescribe 2594 Public Works Loan [COUNCIL.] Application Bill. that, for the number of children Their toilets are public, and I mean public, used by any and everyone hiring the hall accommodated at the hall, there and on some Monday mornings are a dis shall be one drinking tap for girls grace to civilized people. The teachers and and one for boys. In this case, there pupils are expected to clean these toilets are none. The regulations also and the area surrounding the hall on Mon day morning. Most people would feel weak state that there shall be two wash in the stomach at the thought of the mess, ing taps for each sex. In fact, there much less having to clean it up. is only one which is in a very poor The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON. condition. In regard to toilet closets, That is why we are rebuilding the there shall be seven for girls and school this financial year. three for boys, but in fact there are three for boys and two for girls, and The Hon. I. R. CATHIE.- The their condition is described as poor. letter continues- I t is no wonder that the school This, Sir, is not good enough in an afflu ent society. The Education Department is medical officer has asked for two of paying over $1,000 a year to rent "that the children to be given eye-sight hall" so why can't the money be used to checks. It is also little wonder that provide two portable class-rooms. two of the teachers who have spent When I telephoned the officer in the the past twelve months teaching in Education Department concerned this hall will not return to the school with the allocation of portable class next year. If a teacher took sick, one rooms, he informed me that none had of the classes at the main school went been allbca ted to Langwarrin for next without a teacher so that two year. Again I make a plea to the teachers could be on hand at the hall Minister of Education that, as a all the time. matter of urgent priority, two port able class-rooms should be provided The Hon. W. G. FRY.-If the school at the Langwarrin State School for is built next year, you will have the beginning of the 1969 school year. nothing to talk about. Secondly, I ask the Minister to make a further statement, not only to The Hon. I. R. CATHIE.-That is Parliament, but also to the school why I am raising the matter now. It committee, the parents and teachers is the only opportunity that I have involved, as to when he expects had. I now desire to quote from one tenders to be called for the con of the many letters sent by parents to struction of the school. the secretary of the school com The schedule was agreed to. mittee. It contains these remarks- The Bill was reported to the House Those children at "that hall" ·are the without amendment, and passed citizens of tomorrow and are on the way to through its remaining stages. being a social disgrace. The Grade I child ren naturally dominate preparatory grade LABOUR AND INDUSTRY and with no older children to mix with the whole structure socially of this school is (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) breaking down. The grade I of this year will BILL. find it difficult to assimilate in the school This Bill was received from the after twelve months of triumph over preps at the hall. They miss the play equipment, Assembly and, on the motion of the library and technical equipment of the Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of school, and also the social life of the school Health), was read a first time. as a whole involving all teachers and children. ADJOURNMENT. As you know, Sir, we are losing two of The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Min our infant teachers this year, both highly ister of Agriculture) .-By leave, I skilled in the advanced teaching methods move- favoured by Langwarrin. One of these That the Council, at its rising, adjourn transfers is possibly caused by the trying until tomorrow, at half-past Ten o'clock. conditions this young lady has had to work under this past year. The motion was agreed to. The House adjourned at 6.53 p.m. Railway Department. [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Public Works Department. 2595 (ii) the design of improved procedures. 14rgi.slatinr !\.s.srwbly. The costs and charges of the investigation comprise- Wednesday, December 4, 1968. (01) fees, which are Phase (i)-$18,OOO. Phase (ii)-$90,000. and The SPEAKER ,(the Hon. Vernon (b) actual expenses associated directly Christie) took the chair at 11.4 a.m., with the assignment. and read the prayer. STATE SUPERANNUATION RAILWAY DEPARTMENT BOARD. CITY UNDERGROUND RAILWAY. ANNUAL REPORTS: VALUE OF Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked INVESTMENTS: INTEREST. the Premier- Mr. WILKES (Northcote) asked the Whether he has conferred with the Prime Treasurer- Minister regarding Commonwealth finance l. When the reports of the State Super for Melbourne's proposed underground rail annuation Board, covering the operations in way; if so, what was the outcome of the the years 1966, 1967, and 1968, will be conference? presented to Parliament? Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and 2. How much was in the Superannuation Treasurer).-The answer is, "No." Fund as at 30th June, 1968, what rate of interest it bears, and what this interest FITTING OF REFLECTORS ON ROLLING amounted to at 30th June, 1968? STOCK. Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer) .-The answers are- Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked l. Today. the Minister of Transport- 2. The value of investments at 30th June, What progress has been made by the 1968, shown in the Board's report is Victorian Railways Commissioners in their $136,462,697. The rate of interest is approx investigation into the question of fitting imately 5.4 per centum per annum. The rolling-stock with reflector lights or amount of interest received in the year to luminous tape as an aid to reducing acci 30th June, 1968, was $6,906,535. dents at level crossings? Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Trans PRISONERS' AID SOCIETY. port) .-The answer is- GOVERNMENT SUBSIDY. There is no known method of making reflectorized signs on freight wagons last. Mr. WILKES (Northcote) asked the This is the experience in Australia and Chief Secretary- overseas. However, the investigations are Whether the Government subsidizes the being continued. work of the Prisoners' Aid Society; if so, at what rate, and when it was last increased? PUBLIC WORKS DEPARTMENT. Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secre P.A. MANAGEMENT CONSULTANTS tary) .-The answer is- PTY. LTD.: TERMS OF ENGAGEMENT. An amount of $7,200 is paid to the Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds) Prisoners' Aid Society through the Hospitals asked the Premier- and Charities Commission. This was last What are the terms of the engagement increased from $6,000 in 1966-67. In addi of P.A. Management Consultants Pty. Ltd. tion, the Treasury advances up to $300 per to investigate the Public Works Department, annum for rail warrants issued by the and what are the costs and charges of this society. investigation? Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and YOUTH ORGANIZATIONS Treasurer) .-The answers are- ASSISTANCE FUND. P.A. Management Consultants Pty. Ltd. INCREASED ALLOCATION. have been engaged to undertake a study of the Public Works Department in two phases, Mr. WILKES (Northcote) asked the viz.:- Chief Secretary- (i) a detailed study of the entire Depart When the allocation to the Youth Organi ment. zations Assistance Fund was last increased? 2596 Prisons Division. [ASSEMBLY.] Child Welfare. Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secre PERMITS FOR CHILD EMPLOYMENT: tary) .-The answer is- QUALIFICATIONS OF INSPECTOR. In 1964-65, when the allocation was in Mr. WILKES (N orthcote) asked creased from $240,000 to $290,000. the Chief Secretary- 1. In view of the huge increase in permits PRISONS DIVISION. granted for child employment, whether he will provide an analysis of the permits WEEK-END LEAVE FOR PRISONERS. granted, including the number of individual Mr. WILKES (Northcote) asked children involved and the amount of work the Chief Secretary- performed? 2. What are the qualifications of the Whether the Government has any plans inspector engaged in supervising the grant for introducing week-end leave for prisoners, ing of these permits, and how he deals with similar to that granted to youth trainees? the family problems he uncovers in the course of his duties? Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secre tary) .-The answer is- Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secre tary) .-The answers are- The Director-General of Social Welfare has very wide powers under section 51 of 1. Yes-if the honorable member will the Social Welfare Act 1960, and these are indicate the period and the range of aspects used extensively in prisons as well as in which he is interested in. youth training centres. Leave from prisons 2. No academic qualifications, but the is confined to compassionate reasons such officer is well-equipped by experience and as illness, death and funerals or to seek personality for the duties. The duties do employment prior to release on parole. The not bring him into touch with family week-end leave scheme applied in youth problems. training centres is considered more appropriate for young offenders who have GOVERNMENT INSTITUTIONS. to make adjustments in family relationships at home. There are no present plans to SUBSIDIES. apply the scheme to prisons. Mr. WILKES (N orthcote) asked the Chief Secretary- CHILD WELFARE. Under what legislation subsidies for voluntary help with Government institutions, RECOMMENDATIONS OF COMMITTEE OF for example, the $2 for $1 subsidy at INQUIRY. Illoura, and the subsidy for the swimming pool at Allambie are granted? Mr. WILKES (Northcote) asked Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secre the Chief Secretary- tary) .-The answer is- In connexion with the recommendations of the committee of investigation into The construction of the swimming pools allegations of neglect and maltreatment of at Illoura and Allambie has been arranged young children, what action is proposed in by the Public Works Department using loan relation to-( a) registration of child-care funds. Contributions towards the cost have workers; (b) training for foster parents; been accepted from the auxiliaries and (c) investigation into low-rental associated with these institutions. housing? SOCIAL WELFARE BRANCH. Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secre FAMILY GROUP HOMES. tary) .-The answer is- Mr. WILKES (Northcote) asked the (a) and (b) These are essentially long Chief Secretary- term projects. The Social Welfare Training Council has them under consideration, and l. When it is expected that the two-family recent investigations abroad by the super group homes at Northcote will be built? intendent of training will make an im 2. What plans exist for future expansion portant contribution. Aspects related to the of family group homes? registration of child-care workers will also 3. Whether there is any ground for con be considered by the committee appointed cern at the turnover of cottage parents? to formulate minimum standards for resi dential institutions. An association of Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secre foster-parents has been formed and discus tary) .-The answers are- sions on matters including the training of foster-parents are proceeding. 1. Tenders for construction were called on 27th November to close on 17th Decem (c) This is a matter for the Housing ber. It is not possible at this stage to state Commission. when they will be completed. Social Welfare [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Branch. 2597 2. Provided that funds can be made FAMILY ASSISTANCE SECTION: ASSIST available, it is proposed to construct at least four additional homes each year. ANCE TO NECESSITOUS CHILDREN AND FAMILIES. 3. The turnover of staff is a cause for concern in all institutions, but it is charac Mr. WILKES (Northcote) asked the teristic of a period of full employment. Chief Secretary- FAMILY ASSISTANCE PAYMENTS. 1. How often and under what circum stances assistance to necessitous children Mr. WILKES (North cote) asked the is reviewed by the Family Assistance Section Chief Secretary- of the Social Welfare Branch? 1. When family assistance ( emergency 2. What were the reasons for rejection, grants) was first introduced, and what rate in 1967-68, of 1,584 applications for family was paid? assistance? 2. Whether consideration will be given to increasing the present rate of $20 per family Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secre in anyone year? tary) .-The answers are- 3. Whether the $20 per annum per family is paid in a lump sum; if not, how payment 1. Each individual case is reviewed at is made? intervals depending on the nature and number of changing factors involved. Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secre 2. Ineligibility, on assessment in regard tary) .-The answers are- for income and essential expenditure com 1. In November, 1963, at the same rate as pared with the II required income" scale. still applies, namely, up to $20 per family in anyone year. 2. No. The existing maximum is con MENTAL HEALTH AUTHORITY. sidered adequate for its purpose. 3. Grants are made and vary according PLACEMENT OF CHILDREN IN to the incidence and nature of emergencies, INSTITUTIONS: FOSTER CARE up to the maximum stated. PLACEMENTS. SUPERVISION OF REGIONAL AND Mr. WILKES (N orthcote) asked the SUBURBAN OFFICES. Chief Secretary- Mr. WILKES (N orthcote) asked the 1. Whether the Government has any plans Chief Secretary- to enable suitable placement for the 60 children awaiting placement in Mental What division or section of the Social Health Authority institutions, and at present Welfare Branch is responsible for the super unsuitably placed with the Social Welfare vision of regional and suburban offices? Branch? Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secre 2. What plans the Government has to tary) .-The answer is- expand foster-care placements? The Family Welfare Division and Proba tion and Parole Division of the Branch, 3. Whether the Government can give which provide the staff stationed in these an assurance that any expansion will not offices. be at the expense of present standards of foster care? CHILD MIGRATION SUB-SECTION: Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secre STAFF. tary) .-The answers are- Mr. WILKES (Northcote) asked the 1. Consultations have taken place with Chief Secretary- the Mental Health Authority and the Hos Whether the child migration sub-section pitals and Charities Commission in relation of the Social Welfare Branch is staffed by to this problem, but there is no easy solution a professional worker; if not, what is the within the limits of finance currently classification of the officer engaged in this available. work? 2. Every opportunity is taken to attract Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secre new applicants with whom children may be tary) .-The answer is- placed. The Social Welfare Branch recently published an explanatory brochure for No. The officer concerned is classified at public interest towards this. purpose. cc Cl" level in the Administrative Division of the Public Service. 3. Yes. 2598 Street Trading Act. [ASSEMBLY.] Aboriginal Affairs. STREET TRADING ACT. 2. How many Aborigines have been given AMENDMENT. legal aid, and what were the reasons where legal aid was not granted? Mr. WILKES (Northcote) asked the Mr. MEAGHER (Minister for Abori Chief Secretary- ginal Affairs) .-1 apologize to the Whether consideration has been given to honorable member for not having amending the Street Trading Act 1958, so that it applies in other areas besides the sufficient time in which to prepare City of Melbourne? a written answer to his question. However 1 can give him an off -the Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secre cuff ans~er which I hope will satisfy tary) .-The answer is, "No". his requirements. Owing to staff difficulties, complete records of such LAW DEPARTMENT. notifications have been kept in the Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs only BAIL CONDITIONS: since 14th June, 1966. In that time, PRISONERS ON REMAND. approximately 150 applications have Mr. WILKES (N orthcote) asked the been received by the Ministry, 25 of Attorney-General- which have concerned drunk and dis l. Whether the Government will make orderly charges which, under the Act an examination of bail conditions, with a the Ministry is not required to recog view to avoiding un convicted persons being kept in custody for lengthy periods? nize. Another 25 have been relatively 2. Over the past five years, what per minor offences on which it was con centage of prisoners on remand were not sidered there was no need to take subsequently convicted? . action. Mr. G. O. REID (Attorney-General). The Ministry has been active in all -The answers are- notifications of serious charges l. The Statute Law Revision Committee against Aborigines, with the excep recently suggested that the Attorney tion of the Harrison case to which I General give consideration to framing referred last week. The Ministry has suitable terms of reference in respect of an investigation of the Victorian bail system either made an officer available or by the committee, and this suggestion is provided legal representation in the now being examined. court 'at the time the case was heard. 2. This information is not available. It would be beyond the capacity of the staff of the Ministry at this stage PORT PHILLIP BAY. to obtain all the additional details of DREDGE SPOIL. all the cases referred to by the hon orable member in his question. How Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds) ever, steps have been taken to in asked the Minister of Public Works, crease the staff of the Ministry to for the Minister for Local Govern enable this information to be readily ment- available. Therefore it is not possible Whether the current environmental study to answer the question in any more of Port Phillip Bay will take into consider ation the effect of dredged spoil dumped in detail. the vicinity of the spoil ground buoys in Port Phillip Bay and Corio Bay? HOUSING COMMISSION. Mr. PORTER (Minister of Public ApPLICATIONS FOR ACCOMMODATION. Works) .-The answer is, "Yes". Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS. the Minister of Housing- l. How many applications for housing NOTIFICATIONS OF CHARGES were lodged with the Housing Commission AGAINST ABORIGINES: LEGAL AID. during the financial year 1967-68, and how many applications were outstanding at the Mr. WILKES (North cote) asked the end of that financial year? Minister for Aboriginal Affairs- 2. How many applications for housing 1. How many notifications of charges have been lodged during the period 1st July against Aborigines have been forwarded to to 30th November, 1968, and how many the Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs since its applications were outstanding as at 30th commencement? November, 1968? Housing [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Commission. 2599 Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Hous Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Hous ing) .-The answers are- ing) .-The answer is- 1. 10,094 applications lodged. Neither the 1945 nor the 1956 Common 15,281 applications outstanding. wealth-State Housing Agreement speci 2. 4,321 applications lodged. fically provides for the reimbursement of the 15,442 applications outstanding. cost of rental rebates to the States. How ever, pursuant to clause 15 of the 1945 agreement, a State may, provided that it UNITS COMPLETED. fully complies with the agreement so far as rent fixation is concerned, be reimbursed Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North) three-fifths of the amount in anyone asked the Minister of Housing- financial year by which the cash expendi tures exceed the cash receipts (rental What annual number of Housing Com charges less rebates). No amounts have mission houses and flats, respectively, was been received in the past five years by Vic completed in each of the years 1950 to 1967, toria under this clause. and in this year to date? Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Hous INDUSTRIALIZED HOMES AT BENALLA. ing) .-The answer consists of a Mr. TREWIN (Benalla) asked the statistical table and I seek leave of Minister of Housing- the House to have it incorporated in 1. When the successful tenderer will Hansard without my reading it. commence construction of the industrialized Leave was granted, and the answer homes at Benalla? 2. When it is expected the contract will was as follows:- be completed? Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Hous Year Ended 30th June. Houses. Flats. ing) .-The answers are- 1. Work commenced on 19th November, 1968. 1951 · . · . · . 2,610 89 2. Three units are scheduled for com 1952 · . · . · . 2,825 145 pletion in March, 1969, and three in April, 1953 · . ., · . 2,987 251 1969. 1954 · . · . · . 3,134 456 1955 · . · . · . 3,354 606 HOUSES AT Y ALLOURN. 1956 ., · . · . 3,098 1,054 1957 . , · . · . 2,128 452 For Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the 1958 · . · . · . 1,911 503 Opposition), Mr. Wilton asked the 1959 .. · . · . 2,209 351 Minister of Housing- 1960 ., · . · . 1,960 634 1961 . , · . · . 1,573 644 1. How many Housing Commission houses 1962 · . · . .. 1,762 638 are vacant in Yallourn? 1963 .. · . .. 1,114 908 2. Whether it is intended that these 1964 ., ., ., 1,563 761 houses will be made available to applicants; 1965 · . · . · . 1,898 790 if so, when; if not, why? 1966 · . .. · . 1,793 893 1967 .. ., ., 2,260 856 Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Hous 1968 .. · . 1,187 1,027 ing) .-The answers are- 1st July, to 30th Nov., 1968 556 191 The Housing Commission has never con structed any houses at Yallourn. RENT REBATES: REIMBURSEMENT BY COMMONWEALTH. EDUCATION DEPARTMENT. Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North) STUDENT TEACHERS IN TRAINING. asked the Minister of Housing- Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked the Minister of Labour and Industry, for Whether, under the Commonwealth-State Housing Agreement, provision is made for the Minister of Education- rebated rent amounts granted by the Vic 1. How many students were in training torian Housing Commission to be reim as primary, secondary, and technical school bursed by the Commonwealth; if so-(a) teachers, respectively, in each of the years what are the details; and (b) what amount 1960 to 1967, and this year? of finance has been granted by the Common 2. How many students in each category wealth for this purpose in each of the past successfully completed their courses in each five years? of the years 1960 to 1967? 2600 Education [ASSEMBLY.] Department. Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour (c) No. Libraries are provided where and Industry).-The answers sup the additions bring the total number of class-rooms to 24 or more. The rooms plied by the Minister of Education currently being erected at Avondale Primary consist of two tables of statistics and School will bring the total to 22. I seek leave of the House to have them incorporated in Hansard without my reading them. USE OF NEW KElLaR EAST SWIMMING POOL. Leave was granted, and the answers were as follows:- Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked the Minister of Labour and Industry, 1. for the Minister of Education- Whether the Education Department plans I to use the new Keilor East swimming pool Year. Primary. Secondary. Technical. for swimming instruction; if so-( a) how many teachers will be assigned to this pool; (b) what schools will be invited to partici 1960 .. 3,389 1,947 547 pate; and (c) when swimming instruction 1961 .. 3,555 2,152 595 will commence? 1962 .. 3,567 2,463 676 1963 .. 3,578 2,863 783 Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour 1964 .. 3,575 3,359 887 and Industry) .-The Minister of 1965 .. 3,562 3,503 931 Education has provided the following 1966 .. 3,815 3,838 1,109 answer:- 1967 .. 4,209 4,460 1,109 1968 .. 4,601 4,874 1,153 Yes. (a) Two. (b) Niddrie State School. 2. Avondale State School. Keilor State School. Keilor Heights State School. Year. Primary. Secondary. Technical. St. Albans Technical School. Avondale State School. Milleara State School. Keilor South State School. Tullamarine State School. 1960 .. 1,393 461 120 Niddrie Technical School. 1961 .. 1,525 532 121 Parklands State School. 1962 .. 1,469 476 134 Keilor South State School. 1963 .. 1,274 672 162 Doutta Galla State School. 1964 .. 1,484 518 165 (c) 12th February, 1969 . 1965 ., 1,391 611 177 1966 .. 1,483 658 188 1967 .. 1,580 773 230 KEILOR HEIGHTS HIGH SCHOOL: ERECTION OF PORTABLE CLASS- ROOMS. AVONDALE PRIMARY SCHOOL. Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked the Minister of Labour and Industry, the Minister of Labour and Industry, for the Minister of Education- for the Minister of Education- When it is expected that work will com In respect of the building extensions mence on the erection of portable class currently being undertaken at the Avondale rooms on the permanent site of the Keilol Primary School, whether provision has been Heights High School? made for-( a) an office for the infant mistress; (b) toilets for the women teachers; Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and (c) a library; if not, why? and Industry) .-The answer pro Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour vided by the Minister of Education and Industry) .-The answer pro is- vided by the Minister of Education Work on the erection of portable class is- rooms on the permanent site of the Keilor (a) Yes. Heights High School has already com (b) As the existing toilets for women menced. teachers are adequate, additional toilets are It is expected the rooms will be ready for not included in the current extensions. the opening of the 1969 school year. Port of Geelong. [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Decentralization. 2601 KEILOR HEIGHTS STATE SCHOOL. 3. What industries so directed have estab lished in the Geelong area? Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked 4. What is the approximate Geelong em the Minister of Labour and Industry, ployment force used by each such industry? for the Minister of Education- 5. Whether any present industries in con Whether the Education Department has junction with the Division are considering any plans for providing additional class establishment in the Geelong district; if so, room accommodation at the Kellor Heights what are such industries? primary school; if so, what are the details of these plans? Mr. MANSON (Minister of State Development) .-The answers are- Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour 1. The full answer to this question is and Industry) .-The answer fur impossible as even an examination of all nished by the Minister of Education files for the past five years would not dis is- close all cases where the attention of firms has been directed to Geelong during negotia The erection of additional class-room tions. However, even in the last two years accommodation at the Keilor Heights at least 26 firms are involved. primary school is included in the Depart ment's list of capital works. No plans have 2. This information is not available. been prepared for this work. 3. Huyck Corporation, Winchester-West ern and Morley's. 4. Huyck's 87, Winchester 103, Morley's PORT OF GEELONG. discon tinued. DECLINE IN SHIPPING TRAFFIC. 5. Twelve firms are still considering establishment in the Geelong district, and Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North) these are textile labels, jewellery, car asked the Minister of State Develop assembly, smelting, engineering, chemicals ment- (three firms involved), bearings, fertilizers, tooling for car industry and steel. 1. Whether his attention has been drawn to recent statements that the port of Geelong shipping traffic has declined in MOUNT BUFFALO NATIONAL volume and future prospects in comparison PARK. with previous trends? LEASE OF TATRA INN. 2. Whether action is being considered to seek improvement of such traffic at the port? Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Mr. MANSON (Minister of State Opposition) asked the Minister of Development) .-The answers are- State Development- 1. I am not aware of any recent state If he will lay on the table of the Library ment that shipping traffic in Geelong has the file containing the lease, all amendments declined. However, because of the drought thereto, and all correspondence and memor there has been a reduction in the volume anda relating to the Tatra Inn, Mount of wheat moving through the port. This Buffalo National Park? is expected to improve with this season's Mr. MANSON (Minister of State harvest. Development) .-It is difficult to lay 2. The Minister of Public Works reviews port activity at frequent intervals. the file on the table of the Library at present because there will be a meet ing of the National Parks Authority DECENTRALIZATION. tomorrow and the file is required at ESTABLISHMENT OF INDUSTRIES IN that meeting. However, when the GEELONG. meeting ends, I will make it available Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North) to the Leader of the Opposition. asked the Minister of State Develop ment- DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH. 1. Over the last five years, what inquiries SCHOOL DENTAL SERVICE: from industrial firms have been directed by the Division of State Development to the CHILDREN TREATED. Geelong district with a view to establish ment in that area, and what was the out Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked come of such direction? the Minister of State Development, 2. Where such industries have decided not for the Minister of Health- to establish in Geelong, what were the In respect of the school dental service reasons for these decisions, and where such conducted at 2 Geelong-road, Footscray industries were eventually established? (a) how many children were treated at this 2602 Department of Health. LASSEMBL Y.] River Murray. centre in each of the years 1963 to 1967, and Leave was granted, and the answers this year to date; and (b) at which schools were as foHows:- the children who were treated this' year were enrolled? 1 and 2. Particulars of river traffic through Tor Mr. MANSON (Minister of State rumbarry lock over the past five years Development) .-The Minister of are as follows:- Health has provided the following 1964- answer:- Paddle steamer Oscar W-Echuca to With reference to School Dental Centre, Mannum. 2 Geelong-road, Footscray. 1965- (a) 1963-4,496. 19.2.65-0ne raft, four men on board. 1964-4,129. 7.9.65-Riverina cabin cruiser to 1965-5,891. Echuca. 1966-4,162. 1967-4,458. 1966- 1968-4,887 (to 30th November). 1O.2.66-12-ft. aluminium boat. Echuca (b) School No. 1033, Holy Rosary School, to downstream. Kensington. 27.8.66-Barge powered by outboard School No. 253, Footscray (Geelong motor. Echuca to Mildura. road) . 31.8.66-0ne cabin cruiser. School No. 1912, Footscray (Hyde 2.9.66-Etona-private house boat, street) . from Echuca to downstream-re School No. 4160, Footscray North. turned 4.9.66. 5.1O.66-Betsy-private house boat up School No. 4792, Footscray North stream to downstream-Barmah to Special. Bartram-returned 11.10.66. School No. 477, St. Monica's School, Footscray. 21.l2.66-Canberra. School No. 1146, St. John's School, 31.12.66-Etona. West Footscray. 1967- School No. 3890, Footscray West. 1.1.67-Motor launch to Echuca. School No. 1501, Yarraville. 11.1.67-RaJt upstream to downstream. School No. 2832, Yarraville West. 1968 (to the end of August)- School No. 478, St. Augustine's Girls' 7.3.68-One boat with two passengers School, Yarraville. upstream to downstream. School No. 1467, St. Augustine's Boys' 10.6.68-Ten army assault boats on School, Yarraville. manoeuvre. 2.8.68-Betsy house boat-Echuca to Bartram, returned 13th August, RIVER MURRAY. 1968. OPERATION OF PADDLE STEAMERS. 27.8.68-Etona-Echuca to Murrabit, Mr. R. S. L. McDONALD (Rodney) returned 29th August, 1968. asked the Minister of Water Supply- 1. How many paddle steamers passed MOTOR VEHICLES. through the lock at Torrumbarry on the CAUSES OF ACCIDENTS. River Murray in each of the last five years? Mr. TREWIN (Benalla) asked the 2. What was the name of each steamer? Chief Secretary- Mr. BORTHWICK (Minister of 1. During the past twelve months, how Water Supply) .-1 should explain many accidents involving motor vehicles that whilst the honorable member have been attributed to a single cause? 2. How many of these have been attri has specifically requested information buted to consumption of alcohol? on paddle steamers, in some cases 1 have been unable to differentiate and Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secre 1 have supplied the figures relating to tary) .-The answers are- all boats going through the lock dur 1. and 2. A summary of statistics of all causes of motor accidents is not compiled ing the past five years. The answers but recently a survey of causes contributing contain statistical data, and I seek to road accidents was made by the Chief leave of the House for their incor Commissioner of Police which indicated that the consumption of alcohol contributed poration in Hansard without my to approximately 70 per cent. of road reading them. accidents. State Electricity [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Commission. 2603 STATE ELECTRICITY YALLOURN HOUSES OWNED BY COMMISSION. COMMISSION. FUTURE OF Y ALLOURN TOWNSHIP: Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the MINING OPERATIONS: COMPEN- Opposition) asked the Minister for SATION. Fuel and Power- 1. What is the number of houses owned Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the by the State Electricity Commission in Opposition) asked the Minister for Yalloum? Fuel and Power- 2. How many such houses are occupied by-(a) pensioners or retired persons; (b) Whether it is still the intention of the employees of the Commission; and ( c) State Electricity Commission to win brown other persons employed in the area? coal from the area now occupied by the 3. How many houses are vacant? township of Yallourn; if so (a) what is the estimated value of buildings, plant and Mr. BALFOUR (Minister for Fuel equipment in the township; (b) what is the and Power) .-The answers are- present estimated worth of brown coal located beneath the township; (c) when the 1. 1,056 houses and flats. Commission proposes to commence such 2. (a) 208 are occupied by widows or operation; and (d) whether any compensa retired persons. tion will be paid to businesses in the area? (b) 635. (c) 141. Mr. BALFOUR (Minister for Fuel 3. 72, of which 31 are allocated. A few and Power) .-The answer is lengthy, of the vacant houses are sub-standard. and I seek leave of the House to have YALLOURN "w" POWER STATION: it incorporated in Hansard without my EMPLOYMENT. reading it. Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Leave was granted and the Opposition) asked the Minister for answer was as follows:- Fuel and Power- The future of the Yalloum township is 1. How many men it is estimated will be being fully investigated by a special com employed in the erection of Yalloum "W" mittee of senior officers of the State Elec power station? tricity Commission having regard to the fact 2. On completion, how many personnel that the township will be affected at some it is expected will be employed in the run future date by the development of the ning of Yalloum "W" power station? Yalloum open cut. Its recommendations Mr. BALFOUR (Minister for Fuel are to include plans and time-tables for the various stages which will be necessary for and Power).-The answers are- the gradual encroachment into the township 1. A maximum of 950 in 1971-72. area. The Commission expects to be able 2. Ultimate manning has not yet been to inform interested parties early in the new determined, but it is expected that by 1974, year. approximately 225 persons will be employed in the manning of Yalloum "W" power (a) The committee is making an estimate station. of the present value of the township as part of its considerations, but this is not yet EMPLOYMENT IN LATROBE VALLEY: complete. WASTAGE. (b) The quantity of coal under the town Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the ship which could be won economically is of the order of 250,000,000 tons. On present Opposition) asked the Minister for day production costs, this would be valued Fuel and Power- at approximately $250,000,000. 1. What number of personnel were employed by the State Electricity Commis (c) As mentioned, this information is not sion in the Latrobe Valley in the years 1966, yet available, but the Commission expects 1967, and in this year to date? to be in a position to make an announce ment early next year. 2. What has been the wastage rate of labour for each month during 1968? (d) The question of compensation to businesses at Yalloum will be carefully Mr. BALFOUR (Minister for Fuel examined when the Commission has received and Power) .-As the answers con and considered the report of the committee. sist of statistical tables, I seek leave As the township will not be affected by coal winning activities for many years yet, of the House to have them incor business people will be given ample notice porated in Hansard without my read in which to plan their future operations. ing them. 2604 Honey Industry. [ASSEMBLY.] Personal Explanation. Leave was granted, and the LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR'S answers were as follows:- SPEECH. 1. Personnel strength. PRESENTATION OF AnDRESS-IN-REPLY. At 31st December, 1966 8,003 At 31st December, 1967 7,759 The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon At 31st October, 1968 . . 7,584 Christie).-As directed by this honor 2. Retirements, resignations and other able House, I waited upon His Excel terminations. lency the Governor on this day, and January, 1968 136 (1.73 per cent.) presented to him the Address of the February, 1968 125 (1.60 per cent.) March, 1968 117 (1.50 per cent.) Legislative Assembly, agreed to on April, 1968 71 (0.92 per cent.) 31 st October last, in reply to the May, 1968 89 (1.15 per cent.) Speech of His Excellency the Lieuten June, 1968 87 (1.13 per cent.) ant-Governor on the opening of Par July, 1968 110 (1.44 per cent.) August, 1968 125 (1.64 per cent.) liament. His Excellency was pleased September, 1968.. 69 (0.90 per cent.) to make the following reply:- October, 1968 106 (1.39 per cent.) MR. SPEAKER AND GENTLEMEN OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY: EMPLOYMENT OF ApPRENTICES IN In the name of and on behalf of Her LATROBE VALLEY. Majesty the Queen I thank you for your Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the expressions of loyalty to our Most Gracious Sovereign contained in the Address you Opposition) asked the Minister for have just presented to me. Fuel and Power- I fully rely on your wisdom in deliberat 1. How many apprentices are currently ing upon the important measures to be employed by the State Electricity Commis brought under your consideration, and I sion in the Latrobe Valley complex? earnestly hope that the results of your 2. What will be the 1969 intake of labours will be conducive to the advance apprentices in the Latrobe Valley? ment and prosperity of this State. 3. Whether the successful completion of indenture will guarantee apprentices posi PERSONAL EXPLANATION. tions in the Commission? Mr. BALFOUR (Minister for Fuel NEWSPAPER ARTICLE. and Power) .-The answers are- Mr. B. J. EVANS (Gippsland 1. Four hundred and sixty-three. East).-I desire to make a personal 2. Approximately 100. explanation concerning an article 3. The 1969 apprentice intake has been headed "Unfair Aid on Drought" informed that trade employment by the which appeared at page 17 of today's Commission will depend on requirements issue of the Sun News-Pictorial. The when training is complete. article refers to an answer given in HONEY INDUSTRY. response to a question asked in the House concerning drought relief. In STABILIZATION PLAN. one passage, the article states- Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked the Sir William was answering a question Minister of Lands, for the Minister of by Mr. Evans (Liberal, Ballaarat North). Agriculture- I think it should be made quite clear Whether the proposal for a plan for stab.H that the question was not asked by ization of the honey industry has been dIS cussed at any recent meetings of State Mr. Evans, of Ballaarat North. I Ministers of Agriculture; if so, what was asked the question and, of course, I the outcome of such discussions? represent the electoral district of Sir WILLIAM McDONALD (Min Gippsland East. ister of Lands).-The answer provided It is regrettable that this is the by the Minister of Agriculture is- second time in a couple of weeks Following discussions with the St~te Ministers of Agriculture the AustralIan that I have been referred to in the Honey Board was established by the Com daily press as being a member of the monwealth Honey Industry Act in 1962. Liberal Party, a description which I There has been no discussion of any consider to be far from com plan for stabilization of the honey industry at any recent meetings of State Ministers plimentary. I hope the repre of Agriculture. sentatives of the press will endeavour Poultry Processing [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2605 to be more accurate when referring fresh chicken, which, by its nature, to honorable members and their must be presented for sale with a political affiliations. minimum of water, find this product difficult to sell in the face of com POULTRY PROCESSING BILL. petition from the frozen product subsidized by its excess water con Sir WILLIAM McDONALD (Min tent. Those Victorian processors of ister of Lands).-I move- frozen chicken, finding themselves at That this Bill be now read a second time. an economic disadvantage compared At its meeting early in 1967, the with some interstate processors Australian Agricultural Council was marketing high water content frozen informed by the South Australian birds in Victoria, have inevitably Minister of Agriculture that pro tended to increase the water content cessors of fresh and frozen chickens of their own products in order to in Adelaide were complaining about maintain a competitive position. unfair competition on the South Aus tralian market from frozen chickens The ease of interstate movement of introduced from interstate sources frozen chickens, coupled with the and containing excessive quantities financial advantage if the freight cost of water when compared with locally is subsidized by excess water, has had distinct repercussions in the broiler processed birds. growing industry in Victoria. In The South Australian Department recent months, partly as a result of of Agriculture purchased from retail the intense competition from large stores twenty samples of inter interstate processors, broiler growers state and local brands of frozen in this State hav·e found themselves chicken. Carcasses were thawed for with empty sheds. It has been obvious 24 hours at 68 degrees Fahrenheit, for some time, and all sections of the and the loss of water from the inter industry have agreed, that control of state brands averaged from 7.8 per the water content of processed cent. to 10 per cent. whereas the poultry was desirable, but consider local brands averaged 3.1 per cent. to able investigation has been necessary 7.1 per cent. Investigations in Vic to establish the most satisfactory way toria showed that a similar situation of achieving the desired control. existed in this State. Thawing tests These investigations have shown that on three samples from New South it is possible, by altering procedures Wales showed average percentage during processing, to produce frozen water losses of 9.3, 10.3 and 12.0 per chickens with different levels of cent.; one sample from Queensland water content. Further evidence averaged 1l.0 per cent., while Vic shows that not all this added water torian brands averaged 6.5, 8.6, 10.8, can be recovered when the frozen 3.8, 5.0 and 4.7 per cent. Each of bird is thawed. In other words, the these figures represents the average measurement of water content by percentage loss of water on thawing thawing frozen birds does not dis from a sample group of individual close the true water content of the chickens in each of these groups, with some individual packs losing up to carcass, and therefore the use of the 20 per cent. water on thawing. "thaw test", as applied in Tas mania for the past year, is no longer This situation of excess and highly considered an effective yardstick for variable water content of froz·en control, although it may have some chicken carcasses has created a num use as a check test. ber of serious problems within the industry. The consumer is being mis The Bill is therefore based on the led as to the actual weight of edible measurement of the net gain in carcass in the frozen pack, and buyer weight by dressed carcasses during resistance to excess water has become processing. This net gain in weight evident. The Victorian processors of is limited to 8 per cent. of the initial 2606 Poultry Processing [ASSEMBLY.] Bill. or base weight of the carcasses. This The Bill now before the House is principle and the actual figure of arranged in three Parts, which deal 8 per cent. are used by the United with administration, the process of States Department of Agriculture in preparing carcasses for sale, and exercising similar control in that miscellaneous matters. For the in country. This figure has b~en amply formation of honorable members I confirmed by measurements made in shall now refer to the main points. Victorian and South Australian Clause 2 contains the interpretations plants in recent months. of words that have a specific mean As I indicated in my opening ing within the terms of the Bill. The remarks, this matter was originally interpretations of "base weight ", raised in the Australian Agricultural "end weight ", "the process" and Council by South Australia, and as "weight gain" are of special signi a result that State was requested to ficance having regard to the control prepare draft uniform legislation for procedures proposed in the Bill. all States. The Department of Agri The Minister is empowered by culture in South Australia deserves clause 3 to exempt operators thanks for the considerable effort it or plants from any or all of has devoted towards resolution of the provisions of the Bill. The the technical aspects of this legis purpose of this provision is to lation. However, due to the import make a distinction between plants ance placed on this matter, the Vic producing frozen carcasses as part torian Department of Agriculture has or all of their operations and plants taken over the running, and I am that produce only fresh carcasses. again in a position to present to this The provisions of the Bill cover House a Bill which is the forerunner processing of all poultry carcasses of similar legislation in other State intended for sale, but initially it is Parliaments. This Bill has been proposed that the legislation shall drafted after final consultations apply only to the processing of frozen between the States of Victoria, New poultry. As I indicated earlier, at South Wales and South Australia, present there is no problem with the these being the States in which it is water content of fresh poultry. expected that similar Bills will be Clauses 4 and 5 relate to inspection. introduced in the current sp'ring Provisi.on is made for the appoint sessions. It is also known that ment of inspectors, and the powers Queensland, the other major process and duties of inspectors in carrying ing State, approves the principle of out tests for weight gain on carcasses this Bill and will act accordingly in in plants are specified. A penalty of the autumn of 1969. $200 is proposed where an inspector I make this point as it is apparent is obstructed, hindered or disturbed that uniform State legislation is in the exercise of his powers and essential where control is to be duties. exercised by in-plant testing. It is, Clauses 6, 7 and 8 contain the re of course, essential that the degree of quirements with regard t.o registra control activity must also be con tion. Except where an exemption has sistent as between States, as pro been granted by the Minister pursuant cessors in a State in which such to clause 3, the operator of any plant legislation was rigorously policed processing poultry for sale is required could find themselves at a dis to register that plant. Failure to do advantage compared with those in so will render the operator liable to a State where inspectors rarely a penalty of $500 for each day pro appeared. It is difficult for this type cessing is undertaken whilst the plant of co-ordination by legislation, but is unregistered. Provision is made it can and will be achieved through for registration to be effected on the the Australian Agricultural Council. operator furnishing the prescribed Sir William McDonald. Poultry Processing [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2607 particulars and paying the fee, which should be implemented to prevent the will be a nominal one to cover ad growth of undesirable practices, and ministration costs. I commend the Bill to the -House. Clauses 9 to 12 make up Part II. On the motion of Mr. TRESIZE of the Bill and relate to the proces (Geelong North), the debate was ad sing of poultry. Provision is ·made for journed. a maximum allowable weight gain of It was ordered that the debate be 8 per cent., and for a penalty of $2,000 adjourned until next day. where the weight gain exceeds 8 per cent. It is recognized that this is a stiff financial penalty, but it is con VALUATION OF LAND sidered that such a penalty is required (AMENDMENT) BILL. as an effective deterrent. In addition, Mr. PORTER (Minister of Public the court may impose, for a period Works).-I move- not exceeding six months, suspen That this Bill be now read a second time. sion of processing in the plant The proposed transfer of valuation in which an offence has been com staff from the Commissioner of Land mitted. The processing of poultry in Tax to the Valuer-General, as already such a way as to retain water in the tissues of carcasses is prohibited, and announced by the Government, makes inspectors are empowered to give rea it necessary to provide the Valuer sonable directions on the processing General with the same authority to procedures involved to ensure that carry out valuations as the Land Tax the weight gain of carcasses during Act gives to the Commissioner of processing will be not more than 8 Land Tax. In addition, there is a need per cent. Provision is made for appeal to transfer to the Valuation of Land to the Minister against an inspector's Act the same facilities as are pro direction where this is considered to vided for valuers in the Land Tax Act be unreasonable. Clause 12 sets out to cover the inquiries which may be the conditions under which an appeal necessary when carrying out valua may be made and determined. tions as required by the Probate Duty Act and the Stamps Act. Clause 2 Clauses 13 and 14 are Part III. introduces a new sub-section (5) of of the Bill. Provision is made in clause section 3, and clause 3 restates section 13 for a certificate from the Minister 3A of the principal Act to give this relating to registration of a plant and necessary authority to the Valuer a certificate from an inspector as to General. the result of a test to be prima facie It is also necessary to transfer from evidence of the facts in such a certifi the Land Tax Act the corresponding cate. Clause 14 empowers the Gov safeguards to ensure the maintenance ernor in Council to make regulations of secrecy in all of the confidential with regard to specified matters, in matters which may come to the know cluding the information to be provided ledge of the valuer by reason of his on a pack containing a carcass in re inquiries. This is achieved by the spect of the presence or absence of inclusion in clause 3 of the Bill of giblets or prescribed portions of poul proposed new sub-sections (3) and try, the controlling and regulating of (4) of section 3A. The corresponding the process of preparing carcasses provisions of the Land Tax Act cover for sale, and the prescribing of tests ing all of the foregoing provisions are to be carried out to determine weight to be found in sections 4, 72 and 83 of gain. that Act. Another related matter concerns For the reasons I have outlined, the the transmission to the Commissioner Government considers it essential in of Land Tax of the assessments of the interests of the industry and the unimproved value now being carried public that uniform rational control out by municipal councils under the 2608 Valuation of Land [ASSEMBL Y.] (Amendment) Bill. co-ordination of the Valuer-General. Act by providing for the case where The Commissioner must be able to the Valuer-General may be required prepare for the receipt of valuation to make certain valuations of un information, and it is considered improved value for the Commissioner reasonable that a council should be in circumstances where they would given two months after the return of not normally be made by the muni the valuation or receiving the request, cipal council-for example, where whichever is the later, to provide this land attracts land tax but is exempt information. This instruction to the from municipal rates. . council has been introduced in clause Clauses 11, 12 and 13 deal with 5 of the Bill in the form of an amend matters relating to rating valuations. ment to section 7 of the Valuation of Clause 11 is a machinery amendment Land Act. consequent on the amendments in The Commissioner of Land Tax is clause 10 while, to off-set the possi already using the assessments of un bility of more than one objection improved capital value returned to being lodged in anyone year, say, to councils since late 1965. The experi a council and to another rating auth ence so far suggests that, with the ority, clause 12 has been introduced transfer of all of his valuation staff to make it clear that there may be to the Valuer-General, the Commis only one such objection lodged in sioner should have a reasonable assur respect of the same valuation in any ance that, where land tax may be one year. payable, each council will, following Clause 13 clarifies the position, the return of a valuation, serve a and makes it clear that any adjust notice of valuation on the owner of ment to a valuation as a result of the property-who is the person liable objection is binding on all rating for the payment of land tax as distinct authorities using it and not only the from the occupier who is primarily rating authority which made it. responsible for the payment of muni Clause 15 complements clause 13 by cipal rates-in order that the owner providing for any decision of a court may have an early opportunity of or board to be equally binding on all lodging an objection against the valua rating authorities using the valuation tion if he so wishes. in respect of which a determination Clauses 9 and 10 clarify this posi has been made. tion. Clause 9 provides for all objec I turn now to a matter which has tions to be lodged at the time when caused some concern to many coun the notice of valuation from the cils. Legal opinion has been given that council is received, while clause 10 costs could not be awarded against requires that an owner shall receive a an appellant who caused the expendi notice of valuation whether or not he ture of money in preparation of is responsible for the payment of defence of a valuation by a council, municipal rates. It also provides that but withdrew before the actual hear each person receiving a notice of ing. Clause 14 corrects this situation. valuation from the council shall be It also clarifies the authority of a made aware of the use in appropriate court or board to award costs as a cases of unimproved value by the result of a determination made after Commissioner of Land Tax if the a hearing, and to provide for their amount of value and use of the recovery. This latter facet of the property are such as to attract that situation had been in some slight tax. A similar notice must also be doubt. given in respect of any other rating authorities using the valuation. It has already been provided in clause 10 that in future each owner A small amendment included as well as an occupier shall receive a in clause 10 affects sub-section (3) of notice of valuation. Clause 16 now section 37 of the Valuation of Land ensures the right of objection to any Mr. Porter. Valuation of Land [4 DECEMBER, 196B.] (Amendment) Bill. 2609 person who receives a rate or tax inserted because of the existing uncer demand notice, but who has not tainty surrounding the ability of the previously received a valuation notice, board to assess the quantum of costs having a right of objection to the and gives the court or board the valuation. Clause 17 contains a necessary power to make an effective small consequential amendment. order for payment of costs. The remaining clauses of the Bill Clauses IB, 19, 20 and 21 make not already referred to deal with the amendments to related Acts with powers of the court and the Land respect to the application of the Valuation Board of Review in hearing Valuation of Land Act to the Local disputes with respect to the value of Government Act, the Probate Duty land. Because of the doubts raised in Act, the Soldier Settlement Act and court actions under the Valuation of the Stamps Act. The intention is to Land Act, it has been necessary to provide for a completely uniform clarify the right of the court and the approach to the assessment of com boards of review to hear all disputes. pensation, in the case of the Local On the advice of the Parliamentary Government Act and the Soldier Draftsman, this right will be given by Settlement Act, and to the removal means of regulations listing "pre of any conflict between the Valuation scribed Acts" mentioned in the text of Land Act and the Probate Duty Act of clause 7 in preference to the listing and Stamps Act, respectively. It will of the numerous Acts concerned. be seen that, all in all, the amend In the Supreme Court Mr. Justice ments are designed to make the Valua Gillard expressed the view that sec tion of Land Act work more smoothly, tions 37 to 40, inclusive, of the and I therefore commend its provi Valuation of Land Act and the amend sions to the House. ment to section 19 of the Probate On the motion of Mr. WILKES Duty Act 1962, by section 13 of the (Northcote), the debate was Valuation of Land (Appeals) Act No. adjourned. 7276, were irreconcilable with sec tions IB, 19 and 20 of the Probate Mr. PORTER (Minister of Public Duty Act. The amendment in clause Works) .-1 move- 7, together with that in clause 19, That the debate be adjourned until corrects this situation. tomorrow. Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-I have One or two matters which have discussed this matter with the Min caused some confusion in hearings ister and have pointed out that this is concerning the compulsory acquisition a technical Bill. Under normal circum of land are dealt with in clause B. One stances, the Opposition would require concerns the liability for the payment a longer period of adjournment, of costs where a sum of compensation irrespective of whether the Bill had is awarded after the acquiring been debated in another place. Mem authority has asserted that none is bers of the Opposition will not have payable and in the reverse case where the advantage of reading what has the court or board finds that no com been said in the Council on this Bill. pensation is payable after it has been However, in the circumstances, we claimed. These two cases are dealt shall be prepared to debate the Bill with in paragraphs (a) and (b) of tomorrow, and the Minister has given clause B, while paragraph (c) removes an assurance that he will at least a doubt now existing by making it examine matters raised by members clear that any amount of the solatium of the Opposition during the debate. claim or award is not to be taken into account when determining the liability Mr. PORTER (Minister of Public for the payment of costs. The Act Works) .-1 wish to place on record already specifies the formula related my appreciation of the ready co to the sum claimed and the amount operation of the Deputy Leader of the awarded. Paragraph (d) has been Opposition. I appreciate his position; 2610 Superannuation [ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill. this is a technical Bill. Since about The second important amendment 1960, he and I have taken part in in the Bill provides that pensioners debates on a number of Bills to amend resuming duty after ill health must the Valuation of Land Act. I repeat serve for an additional three years, the assurance that I have already or to within three months of their given the honorable member that any maximum retiring age, before being matters raised will be examined, even eligible to take out additional super after the Bill becomes an Act. annuation units to which they would The motion was agreed to, and it otherwise be entitled. The Chief was ordered that the debate be Secretary explained that, at present, adjourned until next day. when such pensioners returned to work, because of salary increases which might have accrued during the SUPERANNUATION (AMENDMENT) period of their retirement, they would BILL. be entitled to take out additional The debate (adjourned from units of superannuation. The Minister November 26) on the motion of Sir pointed out that some of these people Arthur Rylah (Chief Secretary) for may not be back at work for very the second reading of this Bill was long before again retiring on superan resumed. nuation, and thus would be eligible to Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne).-This benefit from additional superannua Bill eomprises a miscellaneous group tion units for which they had made of amendments to the Superannua little contribution. tion Act. The explanatory second The third provision in this measure reading speech was delivered by the relates to those who begin to con Chief Secretary 'On the 26th Novem tribute to the fund when they have ber, but I am glad that the Treasurer only a limited number of years of is now sitting at the table for this prospective service. At present, those debate. The honorable gentleman who join the fund with less than should be in a position to answer twenty years' prospective service questions more satisfactoQrily than that is, those who come into the ser some Ministers who have been at vice after reaching the age of 45 years the table over the past few sitting -may contribute for only a reduced days. Eight basic amendments to the principal Act are proposed. I shall number .of units, the number being refer to them briefly, but shall make conditional upon the number of years whatever 'comments are appropriate of prospective service. This Bill to particular elauses at the Commit proposes that, in future, a similar tee stage. principle will be applied to those who have less than 30 years' prospective This Bill provides that, in future, service. the contributions to the Superannua tion Fund paid by female contributors The fourth change effected by the who marry will be returned. They Bill relates to the rights of certain will then no loQnger be eligible to officers, appointed for a term of years, contribute to that fund, but will be who are not reappointed .on the con-· allowed to transfer to the :Married elusion of that term. Clause 6 which WoQmen's Superannuation Fund, deals with these officers refers to which will be established under a officers appointed under paragraph measure passed by this House yester (j), (ja) or (jb) of sub-section (1) day. I indicate noQw that the Opposi of sectioQn 3 of the Act and to new tion will vote against the proposal appointees to an .office mentioQned in. f'Or reasons which I shall explain Part II. of the Second Schedule. Some when dealing with the appropriate years ago, without the officers who· elause. were entitled to contribute to the: Superannuation [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] (Amendment) Bill. 2611 Superannuation Fund being specifi There is a further provision in the cally defined, provision was made Bill that such officers, who are over that--. the age of 50 and have contributed any person or class of persons holding any to the Fund for fifteen years or more, office- may choose not to take a lump sum (i) under the Crown; or payment but to wait until they reach (ii) as a member of or in the service or the age of 65 years and then receive employment of any body created a pensi'On which will be calculated by or under any Act of Parliament according to a new Table C. It will to which officer the Governor in Council, on the recommendation of not be a full pension; depending on the Treasurer of Victoria, by Order the retirement age, the value of the published in the Government Gaz unit will be adjusted, but it will ette declares that the provisions of be less than if they had served until this Act shall apply- reaching the age of 65 years. I woQuld be an officer foQr the purpose should imagine that, in most cases, of the Act. Other provisions dealt such officers would choose the lump with similar types of employees. A sum payment. perusal of the Government Gazette indicates that, recently, a number of There is a special provision in the such officers employed by the Vic measure f.or a pension to be paid at a torian Pipelines Commission and reduced unit rate-on his reaching other bodies have been covered. the age of 65 years-to a contributor Some such officers may be appointed who resigns after contributing to the for a limited number of years; they Fund for fifteen years, if he is over would not have a right to continue the age of 50 years. I emphasize in the employment until they reached that this provision refers to an the age of 65. Apparently, the officer who resigns, not to .one who Solicitor-General has expressed the leaves the Service on retirement on opinion that, although these people account of ill health or a similar are appointed for only a pre reason. Under the present Act, such scribed term, when they retire they a person would be entitled only to a are entitled to the full pension refund of the contributions he had benefit which would have been appli made to the Superannuation Fund. cable if they served until the age .of In many respects, the proposed new 65 years, or to the age of 60 years if provision is generous. If the officer they had nominated that age of wishes to do so, he may obtain a retirement. A somewhat similar posi pension, reduced on an actuarial tion would arise in connexion with basis, at the age of 60 years. officers specifically mentioned in the The sixth main proposal in the Bill Second Schedule to the Act. is to give authority to the Board, in This Bill provides that, instead, certain 'Circumstances, to offer an those officers will be entitled to a ill-health pensioner a lump sum pay lump sum payment of three and a ment equivalent to five times the half times the amount which they annual rate 'Of pension in lieu 'Of the have contributed to the fund. In pension. This amendment to sec other words, although these officers tion 46 of the Act relates to the may be appointed for only a limited liability of a pensioner who could term, and are not reappointed, a con be recalled to work. At present, tribution of two and a half times the a pensioner whose health is such amount they themselves have con that he could perform suitable tributed will be made from Consoli duties may be recalled to work. dated Revenue towards a lump sum As the Chief Secretary explained, retirement payment. If, for instance there may be particular circum a person had contributed $2,000, stances-particularly in the case of the Government would contribute female teachers-in which the person $5,000, and the lump sum retirement concerned is not capable of resum payment would be $7,000. ing the work he or she previously 2612 Superannuation [ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill, did, but is capable of carrying out Mr. CLAREy.-Those who are at other duties in a different branch of present contributors to the Super the Public Service, but a suitable job annuation Fund will not be thrown is not available at the salary the out of it, so there will be married officer previously received. The Bill women contributing to both funds. provides that those officers may. be ,Mr. MOSS.-No doubt that point offered a lump sum payment equIva- will be cleared up in Committee. This lent to their pension entitlement for measure will remoOve certain five years, if they are under the age anomalies. In addition, the Bill will of 40 years. establish an important principle by authorizing the Board under cer A very important provision is to tain circumstances toO convert the change the name of the "State superannuation benefits of those Superannuation Board" to the" State in ill-health to lump sum payments. Superannuation Board of Victoria". Briefly, members of my party support The Opposition will not oppose any the spirit of this Bill and hope it part of the Bill except that which, will pass without undue delay. 'in its opinion, will inflict an injustice upon women employees. Members The motion was agreed to. of the Opposition believe that there The Bill was read a second time should be no discrimina Hon between and committed, pro forma. females and males in employment, Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and rates of payment, pensions, and so Treasurer) presented a message from on. As a matter of principle, we His Excellency the Governor recom claim that, if a female who is con mending that an appropriation be tributing to the fund marries and is made from the Consolidated Revenue not obliged to resign her employment, for the purposes of this Bill. she should not be penalized if she carries on. A resolution in accordance with the recommendation was passed in Mr. MOSS (Leader of the Country Committee and adopted by the Party) .-1 do not wish to traverse House. the ground so adequately covered by The House went into Committee the Chief Secretary in his second for the consideration of the Bill. reading speech and by the honorable member for Melbourne. The Country Clause 1 was agreed to. Party suppoOrts the Bill, which brings Clause 2, providing, inter alia- superannuation provisions up to date (2) At the end of the section 3 of the in a practical way. I do not quite Principal Act there shall be inserted the follow the point of the honorable following section :- member for ·Melbourne concerning "3A. (1) This Act does not apply to a the clause which he has indicated the female officer (other than a female officer who was a married woman and a contributor Opposition will oppose. No doubt, at the commencement of the Superannua the Premier and Treasurer will say tion (Amendment) Act 1968) while she is something about it at the Committee married. stage. (2) This Act does not apply to a female officer who has ceased to be married until Sir HENRY BOLTE.-Yesterday, the the Board is satisfied that she has ceased House passed a superannuation Bill to be married and issues its certificate to toO create a special superannuation that effect." fund for married women. How on Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne).-I indi earth can they be in both? cated that the Opposition does not favour the proposal to remove Mr. MOSS.-That was the point married women from the ambit of which confused me. the Superannuation Act. That Superannuation [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] (Amendment) Bill. 2613 removal is proposed by sub-clause Superannuation Fund are infinitely (2) which inserts the following new superior. A woman should not be section 3A in the principal Act:- penalized upon her marriage. There (1) This Act does not apply to a fore, the Opposition proposes to vote female officer (other than a female officer against this clause. who was a married woman and a contributor at the commencement of the superannuation I seek your guidance, Mr. Acting (Amendment) Act 1968) while she is mar ried. Chairman. Unfortunately, clause 2 relates to two distinct matters-it (2) This Act does not apply to a female officer who has ceased to be married until establishes a new table C to which I the Board is satisfied that she has ceased referred in debating the motion for to be married and issues its certificate to the second reading of the Bill, and that effect." it proposes a new section 3A of the The Opposition originally proposed principle Act relating to the non to vote against sub-clause (1) of application of the Act to certain clause 7, which amends section 6 of married females. The Opposition the principal Act by substituting a does not wish to vote against table new subsection (1) which provides, inter alia- C. II Where a contributor- The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. (a) is discharged or dismissed or has his Stokes).-The honorable member may employment otherwise terminated in move that sub-clause (2) of this a manner not specifically mentioned in this Part or being a female officer clause be omitted. marries-there shall be refunded to that contributor the actual amount Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and of the contributions paid by that Treasurer) .-The Superannuation contributor. Board is really the trustee for a large If I had waited until clause 7 was dis fund and it is acting in the interests cussed to express my opposition to of contributors generally. As honor clause 2, I would have been in an able members are aware, contributors anomalous position. Members of the obtain certain entitlements and bene Opposition are opposed to the prin fits when they retire. It is not the ciple of saying to a female who is at duty of the trustee to recommend present in the fund, "You may con " giveaways" unless they are reason tinue to contribute to the Super ably actuarialy sound and can be annuation Fund until you reach 60 years of age and then you may explained and understood. Noone receive all the benefits accruing to could explain, least of all understand, you, but if you marry, you must leave how married women could be placed the fund". As the Treasurer stated, on the same basis as ordinary con when a female marries, she can trans tributors in any superannuation fund. fer to the Married Women's Super Mr. CLAREY.-It is done at present. annuation Fund. However, the bene fits available from that fund are not Sir HENRY BOLTE.-If the honor so attractive as those that apply in able member for Melbourne was alert, the Superannuation Fund. On retire he should have opposed the Married ment from the Married Women's Women's Superannuation Fund Bill Superannuation Fund, a female yesterday. would receive a Government pay ment of only one and a half times her Sir HERBERT HYLAND.-The Oppo contributions as against a payment sition is now opposing provisions of of two and a half times her con that Bill. tributions from the Superannuation Sir HENRY BOLTE.-Members of Fund, if a lump sum should be re the Opposition should have opposed quired. The benefits under the the Married Women's Superannuation 2614 Superannuation [ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill. Fund Bill yesterday. This is ·an extra amendment which will be proposed ordinary situation. Yesterday, the by the honorable member for Mel honorable member for Melbourne bourne. was helpful, and I felt that he was fathering the Bill more than I was. Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne).-I Between us we succeeded in having move...... it passed. Today he is submitting a That sub-clause (2) be omitted. proposal that cuts across the spirit of that Bill. I cannot accept the amend I have listened with interest to the ment foreshadowed by the honorable remarks of the Treasurer, and I member for Melbourne because agree with some of his concluding Parliament should not loosely statements concerning the way in accept suggestions without a care which the fund is being administered ful analysis by actuaries and the and its satisfactory financial position trustees of the fund on their over-all which the published accounts and effects. the next quinquennial investigation will probably reveal. Today in answer to a question asked by the Deputy Leader of the The Premier really side-stepped Opposition, the Superannuation the point raised by the Opposition. Board expressed its regret that it had He said that yesterday the Opposition to submit a three-year summary at accepted a measure relating to the the one time. This was caused by establishment of a Married Women's insufficient staff and mainly be Superannuation Fund. I point out that cause never in the history of females who are at present contribut the Superannuation Board has the ing to the State Superannuation Superannuation Act been so exten Fund are in a far better position than sively amended as during the past if they transfer to the Married Wo three years to provide more liberal men's Superannuation Fund. and realistic benefits to contributors. The Married Women's Superannua Generally speaking, the fund is tre tion Fund is really are-establishment mendously healthy and, with continu of the former Married Women ing increases in interest rates, the Teachers' Fund. Previously, there annual average earnings from the was no separate married women's fund are increasing year by year. superannuation fund. The Govern Again, this is in the interests of the ment had been contributing the same contributors. The amendment fore amount as the contributors to that shadowed by the honorable member fund. When the new fund is estab for Melbourne would, to a degree-I lished, the Government will con concede that it would not be to a tribute one and a half times the great degree-injure the investment amount of contributions made by of the average contributor. Married contributors. Those who remain in it women who contribute to this fund and are entitled to a lump sum pay cannot expect to receive the same ment will receive two and a half benefits as normal contributors to a times their contributions. Although superannuation fund. I agree that the new Married I have made these remarks to ex Women's Superannuation Fund will plain why the Government is not be an improvement on the previously blindly or slavishly following the re existing Married Women Teachers' commendations of the Superannua Fund, it is not as good as the State tion Board. It does place great store Superannuation Fund. Because the on the Board's advice, suggestions new fund was better than the former and propositions from time to time. one, the Opposition supported that The Government cannot accept the Bill. Sir Henry Bolte. Superannuation [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] (Amendment) Bill. 2615 Under this Bill, it is proposed that, NOES. after marriage, women shall not con Mr. Clarey Mr. Sutton tinue to contribute to the State Mr. Divers Mr. Turnbull Mr. Edmunds Mr. Wilkes Superannuation Fund; they will Mr. Floyd Mr. Wilton. be transferred to the newly Mr. Ginifer established Married Women's Super Mr. Holding Tellers: annuation Fund. I do not know why Dr. Jenkins Mr. Fennessy there should be this sudden departure Mr. Stoneham Mr. Trezise. because the small number of con tributors involved would not unduly PAIRS. interfere with or adversely affect the Mr. Lovegrove I Mr. Reese stability of the Superannuation Fund Mr. Meagher Mr. Ring. with which we are now dealing. The clause was agreed to, as were I cannot understand the Trea clauses 3 to 6. surer's objection. The Government Clause 7 (As to rights on discharge is attempting to do certain people a dismissal or resignation). disservice by telling them that, although, when they first contributed Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne).-Owing to the State Superannuation Fund to the lateness of the hour and the they could still remain in it if they fact that I covered the clauses fairly subsequently married, that situation fully in my second-reading speech, I will no longer apply. shall not deal with them in detail in The Committee divided on the Committee. However, I propose to question that the sub-clause proposed refer to clause 7 to indicate to the by Mr. Clarey to be omitted stand Government that the Opposition part of the clause (Mr. Stokes in the examines each measure with a micro chair)- scope, as it were. I direct the Trea Ayes 48 surer's attention to sub-paragraph Noes 14 (ii) of paragraph (b) of proposed new sub-section (1) of section 36 of Majority against the the principal Act, as contained in this amendment 34 clause, which provides for the pay· ment of a reduced pension to contri AYES. butors who resign. Under this pro· Mr. Balfour Mr. Rafferty vision, a person who has attained the Mr. Billing Mr. Reid Sir John Bloomfield (Box Hill) age of 50 years and has been a con Sir Henry Bolte Mr. Ross-Edwards tributor for fifteen years shall be Mr. Borthwick Mr. Rossiter entitled to certain pension entitle Mr. Buckley Sir Arthur Rylah ments. The sub-paragraph, as drafted, Mr. Cochrane Mr. Scanlan Mr. Darcy Mr. Smith includes the expression- Mr. Doyle (Bellarine) "to receive a pension entitlement payable Mr. Dunstan Mr. Smith at the age of 65 years, and the amount of Mr. Evans ( Warrnambool} such pension entitlement per unit held by (Ballaarat North) Mr. Stephen him" Mr. Evans Mr. Suggett (Gippsland East) Mr. Tanner shall be as set out in the table in this Mrs. Goble Sir Edgar Tanner Mr. Hayes Mr. Taylor clause. I do not think the word Sir Herbert Hyland Mr. Templeton " and" should be included in this Mr. Jona Mr. Trethewey provision; its inclusion is not only Mr. Loxton Mr. Trewin superfluous but also nonsensical. I Mr. MacDonald Mr. Vale (Glen Iris) Mr. Wheeler suggest that this word should be de Mr. McDonald Mr. Whiting leted from the sub-paragraph; other (Rodney) Mr. Wilcox wise, in the next Statute Law Revi Mr. McKellar Mr. Wiltshire. Mr. McLaren sion Bill which will correct a whole Mr. Manson list of misprints and other minor Mr. Mitchell Tellers: errors in various enactments, it will Mr. Moss Mr. Broad Mr. Porter Mr. Dixon. be necessary to rectify the error. 2616 Melbourne Harbor Trust [ASSEMBLY.] Land Bill.' Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and river was diverted from its original Treasurer) .-If the honorable mem course. Years ago, the canal was ber for Melbourne is correct in his cut to allow the Yarra river to run assertion that the word " and " should in a straight line, and the Coode be omitted from the sub-paragraph, Canal has now become the Yarra. the clause will be amended in another Great development has taken place place. on the Yarra river over the years. In fact, the development has probably The clause was agreed to, as were been greater than on any other river the remaining clauses. of comparable size. The Victoria The Bill was reported to the House Docks and the Appleton Docks have without amendment, and passed been established and the Swanson through its remaining stages. Dock, which will be used for ships carrying containers, is in the course The sitting was suspended at 12.50 of construction. The railway line, p.m. until 2.6 p.m. which will skirt the docks, will run almost parallel to Footscray-road. It MELBOURNE HARBOR TRUST is necessary for this small piece of LAND BILL. land to be acquired by the Melbourne The debate (adjourned from Harbor Trust in order that the rail November 26) on the motion of way line may be constructed, because Mr. Porter (Minister of Public the line will be needed when the Works) for the second reading of Swanson Dock is operating. When this Bill was resumed. the new road is constructed some of the pressure will be taken off Foot Mr. FLOYD (Williamstown).-This scray-road because the traffic will go is a small Bill, which will not be op down Dudley-street and use this new posed by honorable members on the road. Opposition side of the House. It con cerns a small triangle of land which Some of my colleagues have asked is situated adjacent to the Footscray if it will be a private road. It will road and abutting the eastern side be a private road in so far as the of Old Footscray-road. On numerous Melbourne Harbor Trust is concerned, occasions, legislation has been intro but it will be open to the public duced into Parliament to place certain although it will hardly be used by Crown lands under the control of the them in travelling from one point to Melbourne Harbor Trust. Yesterday, another. Thev will use Footscray I was informed by the chairman of the road. It will also be used by people Trust that this small piece of land had having business at the Swanson Dock. been over-looked on some earlier oc There is no need for me to delay casion, and its transfer to the Trust the passage of the Bill; it contains a has now become an urgent matter so logical procedure to give a small that a new road and railway can be piece of land to the Melbourne Har bor Trust. The present lessees will constructed. From discussions with not be inconvenienced. When their the Commissioners, I understand that leases expire-some as late as 1980- the lessees of the land will not be they will probably not be renewed. affected. No buildings will be demolished to make way for the road. The neces The new road will be known as sary treating with the present lessees Coode-road, no doubt in recognition is almost completed, and I believe of a former chairman of the Mel this has been conducted in a har bourne Harbor Trust. The island was monious manner. I wish the Bill a named Coo de Island when the Yarra speedy passage. Melbourne Harbor Trust [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Land Bill. 2617 Mr. WHITING (Mildura).-The on the map supplied by the Minister honorable member for Williamstown, of Public Works when he made his as usual, has given the House the second-reading speech, is to be elimi historical facts on the alteration of nated and the lessees occupying the the courses of the Yarra and Mari land which will be owned by the byrnong rivers. The honorable mem Melbourne Harbor Trust will be able ber has lived in the area for many to gain access to some of the new years and is familiar with the roads that are built. historical events which have affected this important part of Melbourne. It will be necessary to establish This is valuable information for Coode-road, which will connect with honorable members. the new Footscray-road, and to eli minate Old Footscray-road which at The area of land in the Parish of the moment is in a bad state of repair Doutta Galla which is the subject of and runs diagonally across the area this Bill was not, for reasons that I rather than parallel to new Footscray do not understand, handed over to road, as will Coode-road. I am the Melbourne Harbor Trust when it amazed that the administrative offi was granted the rest of the land in cers of the Lands Department could the area. Apparently at that stage, not foresee further development in the Trust could not put forward the area owned by the Melbourne sufficient reason for having the land Harbor Trust and did not make pro transferred to it and it was held as a vision for this land to be transferred Crown reservation. Approximately to the Trust when other legislation ten years ago, the land was leased to was being considered. various people and unfortuna tely some of the leases do not expire until The Country Party supports the 1980. The land will not be available Bill and hopes the Melbourne to the Trust until these leases have Harbor Trust will fully develop the expired, but the present lessees are area and make the container berths prepared to negotiate with the Har at the Swanson Dock efficient because bor Trust Commissioners with regard in the long run this will reduce the to the section of land which will cost of handling goods in the port of become Coode-road. It is probably Melbourne and thereby reduce costs the most important section of the of production. area at this stage, even though it The motion was agreed to. consists of only 3 acres. It is urgent that this area should be made avail The Bill was read a second time, able to the Commissioners for road and passed through its remaining construction purposes to permit the stages. development of access roads to the container berths at the Swanson Dock. PERPETUITIES AND ACCUMULATIONS BILL. The provision of a railway line adjoining the additional area to be The debate (adjourned from Octo added to new Footscray-road is a ber 22) on the motion of Mr. G. O. worth-while project, and I am sure Reid (Attorney-General) for the that the honorable member for second reading of this Bill was Williamstown, because of his views resumed. on fixed rail transport, will agree that Mr. G. O. REID (Attorney-General). rail access to the container berths (By leave) .-It might be opportune should be provided at the earliest for me briefly to explain the circum opportuni ty. stances surrounding the reintroduc The purpose of the Bill is to grant tion of this Bill. In April of this year, the whole of the area to the Mel I moved the second-reading of the bourne Harbor Trust; the Old measure to amend the law relating Footscray-road, which is shown to the rule against perpetuities and 2618 Perpetuities and lASSEMBLY. ] Accumulations Bill. the law relating to the rule against made provisions tying up the benefit accumulations. This legislation is the of the income from their property, as result of a recommendation made by distinct from the capital, for long the Chief Justice's Law Reform Com periods. The recommendation of the mittee on this branch of the law. The Chief Justice's Law Reform Com·mit recommendation was to the effect tee was that these statutory pro that the law needed amending to bring visions should be abolished, and the it into line with the law as it applied Bill follows that recommendation. in other parts of the British Commonwealth. Excellen t work has been done in The rule against perpetuities is this matter by a sub-committee of the of very long standing and has been Chief Justice's Law Reform Commit developed substantially by the com tee presided over by Mr. Justice mon law with some statutory modi Adam, who is a great authority on fication. It was a rule made against this branch of the law and at one a man who either by his will or by time was lecturer in the law of real deed left property in such a way that property at the University of Mel no one was actually able to become bourne. The sub-committee has done the owner of that property until some a service to this State by recommend remote time in the future. The type ing this praiseworthy move. I pay a of man who devises that kind of tribute also to the Statute Law provision must be rather vain and Revisio~ Committee, which has de is probably of the cast of those who voted its time to this highly technical dominate their families and after and difficult branch of the law and death want to rule their families from produced an excellent report. I the grave and prevent them from thought it necessary to make that having the enjoyment of the property. brief explanation to bring members up to date with the situation. This rule has been developed over the years, but the Chief Justice's Law Mr. LOVEGROVE (Sunshine). Reform Committee found that there The Opposition does not oppose the has been a considerable need for Bill and, on its behalf, I join with modification of the rule. I do not the Minister in thanking the sub-com propose to go into detail because the mittee of the Chief Justice's Law Re Bill was fully explained in my second form Committee, headed by Mr. reading speech last April. It was Justice Adam, who gave the Statute decided at that stage that the Bill Law Revision Committee considerable should be referred to the Statute Law assistance in this matter. I should Revision Committee for further re also like to thank the Minister for his port. The committee was unable to kindness in commenting upon the complete its deliberations for some Statute Law Revision Committee and time and in this sessional period it Messrs. M. M. Davidson and E. A. became necessary, after prorogation of Parliament, to reintroduce the Bill. Hobson, representing the Life Offi I did so a few weeks ago and shortly cers' Association of Australasia, and afterwards the Statute Law Revision Mr. A. X. Lyons, Assistant Parlia Committtee made its report. It mentary Draftsman, who gave the agreed substantially with the recom Statute Law Revision Committee in mendation of the Chief Justice's Law valuable assistance. Reform Committee, but suggested certain amendments which the Gov Mr. ROSS-EDWARDS (Shep- ernment has accepted and which will parton) .-The Country Party sup be covered by amendments I will ports this extremely technical pro move during the Committee stage. posed legislation. The House has The Bill also relates to a statutory been fortunate to have the assistance rule known as the rule against of the Chief Justice's Law Reform accumulations whereby people have Committee and the Statute Law Mr. G. O. Reid. Perpetuities and [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Accumulations Bill. 2619 Revision Committee in framing the propose to adopt that recommenda proposed amendments. The law tion of the Statute Law Revision known as the rule against per Committee which recommendation, as petuities is not as important today as I have said, is one of form rather than it was in earlier times, because wills of substance. made today tend to be simpler and are prepared under much more com The amendment was agreed to, and mon-sense procedures than formerly. the clause, as amended, was adopted, Of course, the law is still necessary, as were clauses 2 to 13. but today it applies more to super Clause 14- annuation funds, and so on. 1 com (1) The rule against perpetuities shall not mend the Bill to the House. operate and shall be deemed never to have operated to invalidate a power conferred on The motion was agreed to. trustees or other persons to sell lease ex change or otherwise dispose of any property The Bill was read a second time for full consideration or to do any other and committed. act in the administration (as opposed to the distribution) of any property, and shall not Clause 1 (short title) . prevent and shall be deemed never to have prevented the payment of trustees or other Mr. G. O. REID (Attorney-General). persons of reasonable remuneration for their -I move- services. That, in sub-clause (2), the word .. dis (2) This section- position" be omitted with the view of in (a) shall not render any trustee liable serting the word "dispositions". for any acts done prior to the commencement of the Trustee Act A number of amendments are pro 1953 for which such trustee would posed. They have arisen from recom not have been liable if this section mendations made by the Statute Law and any corresponding previous Revision Committee. 1 have circulated enactment had not been enacted; (b) shall not enable any person to re to members of the other parties cover any money distributed or paid written notes relating to the proposed under any trust if he couJd not have amendments, because this is a rather recovered such money if this section and any corresponding previous technical Bill. It might be appropriate enactment had not been enacted. a t this stage to say that one of the amendments suggested by the Statute Mr. G. O. REID (Attorney-General). Law Revision Committee is not to be -I propose to move three amend adopted. To a large extent, it con ments to this clause, the explanation cerns a matter of form rather than of which is as follows: Clause 14 re of substance. The Statute Law Re enacts, with amendments, portion of vision Committee proposed that sec section 73 of the Trustee Act 1958, tion 126 of the Property Law Act which in turn re-enacted the corres 1958 should be incorporated in the ponding section of the Trustee Act Bill. This section of the Act relates 1953. The section provides that the to rent charges, and the committee rule against perpetuities is to be thought it might appropriately be deemed never to have applied to cer brought into this Bill. However, sec tain activities. For this reason the tion 126 deals with the rather special section contains a second sub-section powers and remedies conferred on which prevents the reopening of the proprietors of rent charges by transactions made in accordance with the preceding section of the Property the law as it stood before the 1953 Law Act. My feeling is that it would provisions were enacted. be preferable to leave the section In the preparation of the Bill, it stand in its present context, where was not appreciated that the second it forms an integral part of a kind of sub-section should now make pro code dealing with rent charges. For vision preventing the reopening of that reason, the Government does not transactions made in accordance with 2620 Perpetuities and [ASSEMBLY.] Accumulations Bill. the law as it stood between the enact or nominated for that purpose by any such directors officers servants or employes ment of the 1953 provisions and the pursuant to the provisions of such trust or making of the further amendments of fund. the section proposed by the Bill. (2) This section- (a) shall not render any trustee liable The words proposed to be inserted for any acts done prior to the by the second proposed amendment commencement of the Trustee Act should clearly have appeared in the 1953 for which such trustee would original section as enacted in 1953, not have been liable if this section and any corresponding previous and 1 feel that the opportunity should enactment had not been enacted; now be taken to make the intention (b) shall not enable any person to re expressed, rather than merely im cover any money distributed or plied. paid under any trust if he could not have recovered such money if 1 move- this section and any corresponding That, in paragraph (a) of sub-clause (2), previous enactment had not been the words "had not been enacted" be enacted. omitted with the view of inserting the Mr. G. O. REID (Attorney-General). expression, "or for any acts done after the -I propose to move six amendments commencement of the Trustee Act 1953 but before the commencement of this Act to this clause. The first and third for which such trustee would not have been are inter-related, and are intended to liable if this section had not been enacted". carry out the recommendation made by the Statute Law Revision Com The amendment was agreed to. mittee in paragraph 25 of its report Mr. G. O. REID (Attorney-General). that the clause should exclude from -I move- the operation of the rule against per That, in paragraph (b) of sub-clause (2), petuities non-employee superannua the words" under any trust" be omitted with tion schemes as well as the employee the view of inserting the words, "before the schemes dealt with by the clause at commencement of the Trustee Act 1953". present. The committee felt that the The amendment was agreed to. class of non-employee schemes to be excluded should be described restric Mr. G. O. REID (Attorney-General). tively in order to prevent abuses, and -I move- suggested that section 19 of the Law That, in paragraph (b) of sub-clause (2), Reform (Property Perpetuities and the word "enacted" be omitted with the Succession) Act 1962 of Western view of inserting the expression, "or any Australia might be adapted for the money distributed or paid under any trust after the commencement of the Trustee Act purpose. 1953 but before the commencement of this 1 have considered this recommenda Act if he could not have recovered such money if this section had not been enacted". tion, and have formed the view that it would be wiser to draw the ex The amendment was agreed to and clusion in terms similar to those used the clause, as amended, was adopted. in Western Australia. 1 fear that any restrictions incorporated in the clause Clause 15 was verbally amended, could have unjust consequences, and and, as amended, was adopted, as do not feel that a broader clause was clause 16. would be abused, particularly having Clause 17, providing, inter alia regard to the effects on such schemes (1) The rule of law known as the rule of the Commonwealth income tax against perpetuities shall not apply and shall legislation and the State legislation be deemed never to have applied so as to relating to probate and stamp duties. render void a trust or fund established for the 1 accordingly propose that the Com purpose of making provision by way of as mittee should follow the West Aus sistance, benefits, superannuation, allow ances, gratuities or pensions for the directors, tralian precedent in this respect. officers, servants or employes of any employ er or the widows or children or depend The second proposed amendment ants of any such directors officers servants follows the recommendation made by or employes or for any person duly selected . the Statute Law Revision Committee Fisheries [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2621 in paragraph 22 of its report that the commencement of this Act for which such trustee would not have been liable in this part of the clause dealing with emplo section had not been enacted" be inserted. yee schemes should be drawn in wider terms in the spirit of the exemptions The amendment was agreed to. available under the income tax and Mr. G. O. REID (Attorney-General). probate and stamp duty legislation, -I move- which take account of the variety of That in paragraph (b) of sub-clause (2), beneficiaries who are provided for after the words "under any trust", the by modern schemes. words "before the commencement of the Trustee Act 1953" be inserted. The fourth, fifth and sixth amend ments are in the same terms, and The amendment was agreed to. intended for the same purpose, as Mr. G. O. REID (Attorney-General). the amendments of clause 14, since -I move- this clause re-enacts with amend That in paragraph (b) of sub-clause (2), ments another portion of the same after 'the word "enacted" the word.s, section of the Trustee Act 1958. 1 " or any money distributed or paId move- under any trust after the commencement of the Trustee Act 1953 but before the com That, in sub-clause (1), the words" render mencement of the Act if he could not have void a trust" be omitted with the view of recovered such money if this section had inserting the words, "render void-(a) a not been enacted" be inserted. trust ". The amendment was agreed to, The amendment was agreed to. and the clause, as amended, was Mr. G. O. REID (Attorney-General). adopted, as were the remaining -I move- clauses. That, in sub-clause (1), the words The Bill was reported to the House "widows or children or dependants" be omitted with the view of inserting the words, with amendments, and passed through "spouses children grandchildren parents its remaining stages. dependants or legal personal representa tives ". The amendment was agreed to. FISHERIES BILL. The House went into Committee Mr. G. O. REID (Attorney-General). for the further consideration of this -I move- Bill. That, in sub-clause (1), the word" fund" be omitted with the view of inserting the Clauses 2 to 5 were agreed to. following expression:- "fund; or Clause 6 (Honorary inspectors) . (b) a trust or fund established for the Mr. B. J. EVANS (Gippsland purpose of making provision by way of superannuation for persons (not East) .-This clause refers to the being employes) engaged in any appointment of honorary inspectors lawful profession trade occupation of fisheries. Sub-clause (3) indicates or calling or the spouses children grandchildren parents dependants that an honorary inspector of fisheries or legal personal representatives of shall have and may exercise any of any of those persons or for any the powers conferred upon an in persons duly selected or nominated spector of fisheries by the Fisheries for that purpose pursuant to the provisions of the trust or fund". Act or the regulations. Does this mean all the powers, or will each The amendment was agreed to. individual honorary inspector have Mr. G. O. REID (Attorney-General). specified powers? 1 seek some clarifi -I move- cation from the Chief Secretary on this point. Does this sub-clause con That, in paragraph (a) of sub-clause (2), after the word "enacted" the words, "or fer on an honorary inspector all of for any acts done after the commencement the powers exercised by an inspector of the Trustee Act 1953 but before the of fisheries? Session 1968.-96 2622 Fisheries [ASSEMBLY.]" Bill. Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Sec of the fishermen's voice on the Com retary) .-It means any powers that mercial Fisheries Council. I do not have been conferred upon an in propose to suggest any amendment, spector by the Act or regulations, so but I direct this matter to the atten that an honorary inspector will have tion of the Chief Secretary and ask all the powers which are conferred him to examine it. upon an inspector. Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Sec The clause was agreed to, as were retary) .-1 thank the honorable mem clauses 7 to 10. ber for his suggestion, and I shall examine it. I suppose, to be fair, a Clause 11 (Membership of similar provision should be provided council) . for the other side, because there may Mr. B. J. EVANS (Gippsland be reasons - perhaps not distance, East) .-This clause relates to the but sickness or something else Commercial Fisheries Council, and, which would prevent their being re so far as I can see, it is a re-enact presented also. I shall examine the ment of the existing provisions. I point, and if necessary an amend raise a question in regard to the con ment may be proposed later. stitution of the council, which shall consist of a person representing the The clause was agreed to, as were interests of professional fishermen, clauses 12 to 14. one person representing the interests Clause 15, providing, inter alia of wholesale and retail traders, and (1) The following fees shall be paid for two officers of the Fisheries and Wild the issue or renewal of the licences referred life Branch. Sub-clause (3) states to in this Part, namely:- that a quorum of the council shall con (a) for a master fisherman's licence sist of three members and that, sub $25 together with an additional ject to there being a quorum, the fee of $5 for each of the persons the number of whom is specified council may act notwithstanding any in the licence as the authorized vacancy in its membership. In view crew of the master fisherman; of the constitution of the council, it can operate without any professional (b) for a barracouta licence-$20; fishermen being represented. It has (c) for a bait licence-$20; been suggested to me that provision (d) for an abalone licence-$200; should be made for proxy representa (e) for a processor's licence- tion of professional fishermen. It (i) to any trading society registered seems strange that an organization under the Co-operation Act 1958 to which is established to represent the promote the interests of fisherman interests of commercial fishermen and carrying on business as such could in fact operate without their -$100; and being represented. (ii) to any other person-$250 ; The Chief Secretary should examine (f) for a marine harvesting licence-$100 ; this situation to ascertain whether Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secre provision could be made for a tary) .-1 move- deputy or a proxy appointment That, in paragraph (a) of sub-clause (1) to represent professional fisher after the word" fisherman" the expression men, particularly in view of the "but in the case of a person who has had problems that may be associated with not less than 15 years' experience as a commercial fisherman and is an old age or the professional fishermen's repre invalid pensioner under the Commonwealth sentative, who may come from a Act for the time being in force relating to distant part of the State. If he was social services or is a totally and per actively engaged in fishing, he could manently incapacitated pensioner under the Commonwealth Act for the time being in be at sea when the council was meet force relating to repatriation of discharged ing, and, having only one representa servicemen the total fee payable shall be tive, this would limit the effectiveness $10" be inserted. Fisheries [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2623 ThrQugh the cQurtesy Qf hQnQrable SkiptQn. The GQvernment has at members, 1 was permitted to' explain tempted to' cater fQr every case. A this amendment when 1 made a state fee Qf $100 is to' be charged fQr a ment by leave last night priQr to' the CQ-Qpera tive; a fee Qf $25 fQr each resumptiQn Qf the secQnd-reading de partner Qf a partnership, but nQt ex bate. It is unnecessary fQr me to' gO' ceeding a tQtal fee Qf $100 where Qver the grQund again, but the amend each partner hQlds a master fisher ment is an attempt to' prQvide a man's licence Qr an abalQne licence; cQncessiQn to' pensiQners whO' have and a fee Qf $250 in relatiQn to' all been in the business fQr a IQng time. Qther partnerships. An individual Mr. WILTON (BrQadmeadQws). perSQn will pay a fee Qf $50 and a The OpPQsitiQn has nO' QbjectiQn to' bQdy cQrpQrate a fee Qf $250. 1 believe the prQPosed fees will ensure, this amendment. It is a reasQnable without hardship to anyone, a reason prQPQsal in relatiQn to' a persQn whO' able cQntribution frQm the processors has had nQt less than fifteen years in towards the research work that is the industry and desires to' cQntinue being carried out by the Fisheries and to' take a sQmewhat restricted active Wildlife Branch. interest in the industry in the future. Mr. WILTON ~Broadmeadows). The amendment was agreed to'. If 1 understand the situation cor Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Sec rectly, the Chief Secretary is aiming retary) .-1 mQve- at a result similar to' that which was achieved in regard to' scallop fisher That paragraph (e) of sub-clause (1) be omitted, with the view of inserting the men; their earning capacity is geared following paragraph:- to' the fee payable for a processor's "(e) for processor's licence- licence. (i) to any body corporate not being Sir ARTHUR RYLAH.-That is what a trading society referred to in sub-paragraph (ii)-$250; the GQvernment is attempting to' do. (ii) to any trading society regis Mr. WILTON.-The Opposition has tered under the Co-operation no objection to the amendment. Act 1958 to promote the in tt.rests of fishermen and Mr. B. J. EVANS (Gippsland carrying on business as such East) .-This amendment takes care a trading society-$100; of one of the major objections that (iii) to any partnership-$25 in re members of the Country Party had spect of each partner but not exceeding-in the case of a to this Bill. We believe it is a reason partnership where each of able compromise. 1 thank the Chief the partners is the holder Secretary for the opportunity ex of a master fisherman's licence or an abalone licence tended to us to discuss this question -$100 ; with officers Qf his Department. I in the case of any other part agree that it was a difficult prQPosi pership-$250; and tion on which to reach a satisfactory (iv) to any individual person- solutIon. I think it is possibly the $50 ;". best proposal that can be suggested This amendment relates to' a prQ in the circumstances, and therefQre cessQr's licence. The GQvernment members of the Country Party do not had difficulty in drafting this amend QPpose the amendment. ment, but 1 think a cQmprQmise has The amendment was agreed to', been wQrked Qut which, I understand, and the clause, as amended, was is acceptable to' bQth the OpPQsitiQn adopted, as was clause 16. and the CQuntry Party. The prQblem here is that a prQcessQr can vary Clause 17 (Offences). frO'm a large cQmpany carrying Qn a Mr. B. J. EVANS (Gippsland large business to' an individual, such East) .-1 wish to' raise the question as Qne Qf the cQnstituents Qf the that I mentioned during the second Premier, whO' is prQcessing eels at reading debate. An examination of 2624 Fisheries [ASSEMBLY.] Bill. the principal Act, which this Bill re Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secre peals, discloses that in every case tary) .-1 cannot help the Deputy the penalty is stated as a minimum Leader of the Country Party now, but and a maximum, whereas in the Bill I shall obtain the information and the penalties all appear to be fixed supply it to him. sums. I realize that there is probably The clause was verbally amended, some connexion with the Acts Inter and, as amended, was adopted, as pretation Act, but, as many of the were clauses 19 and 20. people who have been studying this Clause 21 was verbally amended, Bill are not aware of the implica and, as amended, was adopted. tions involved, I should appreciate Clause 23 (Offence to angle, &c., an explanation by the Chief Secretary without a licence) . why there is a change between Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows). the existing Act and this Bill. In the second-reading debate, I posed a question relating to the wording of Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Sec sub-clause (2) of this clause which retary) .-The explanation is simple. deals exempts persons of or under The Fisheries Act is an old enactment. the age of sixteen years from holding The Government has adopted a new a licence. My question related to_ the form of drafting-I think it was re use of the word "of". I think I commended by the Statute Law understood the position but I have Revision Committee-that penalties been requested to obtain the infor shall be expressed in simple terms mation authoritatively from the Chief and that the Acts Interpretation Act Secretary. I should therefore be shall apply to them. Unless a mini grateful if the honorable gentleman mum penalty is specified, the penal would state whether the provision ties are maximum penalties. In this means that, until he becomes 17 case, the court has discretion to im years of age, a person can fish, pose a fine of up to $500 or imprison although he does not hold a licence. ment for six months. This does not mean that the court must impose that Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Sec penalty. retary) .-The expression is unusual, I agree. I remember the honorable The clause was verbally amended, member for Broadmeadows raising and, as amended, was adopted. this matter in the early hours of this morning but I am afraid that I have Clause 18 (Reciprocity in respect not yet obtained the information. I of licences). shall arrange to have the position Mr. B. J. EVANS (Gippsland clarified and the information passed East) .-This clause deals with re to the honorable member. ciprocity between the States, so far The clause was agreed to. as registered fishermen are con Clause 24 (Reciprocity with other cerned. I should appreciate any in States, &c., as to inland fishing). formation the Chief Secretary may Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds). have in regard to arrangements which The Essendon Fish Protection Society may be made or are in process of and Anglers Club has asked me to being made, particularly between Tas raise this matter. An angler from mania and Victoria, with regard to another State who holds a permit reciprocal" fishing rights. I under of that State will be permitted to fish stand that this question has been in Victorian inland waters. Is a causing some concern because Vic similar provision to be included in the torian fishermen angling in Tasmanian Acts of other States so that fishermen waters are not receiving reciprocal who hold Victorian licences will be rights. Perhaps the Chief Secretary permitted to fish in those States? This can inform the Committee whether ma tter was not mentioned by the there are prospects for reciprocity Chief Secretary. At present, a Vic to be achieved in the near future. torian who wishes to fish in the River Fisheries [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2625 Murray, even though he sits on the to high-water mark or on any land adjacent Vietorian bank of the river, must to any such shore or on any land in Vic torian waters or may work and improve any hold a New South Wales licence, as natural or artificial fish habitat in existence the River Murray is deemed to be on any such shore or land at the date of a New South Wales stream. Obvi issue of the permit. ously, if they were all'Owed to fish in (2) Upon application made in the pre New South Wales waters, Victorian scribed form for a fish-culture permit the Minister may, if he thinks the applicant a licensees, particularly amateur fisher suitable person to hold such a permit and to men, would be assisted. culture fish, grant him a permit in respect of the fish habitat concerned. Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Sec retary) .-1 speak from memory, but Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Sec I believe we have cleared up all the retary) .-As I explained when I made problems of reciprocity between Vie a statement by leave last night, clause t,oria and New ,South Wales. If I am 25 requires any person who forms or right, New South Wales will be creates a fish habitat for clams declared by the Governor in Council oysters, mussels, and so -on, on any to be a reciprocating State pursuant shore up to highwater mark -or on to sub-dause (2) of this clause. In any land adjacent to such shore, or that event, the holder of a Victorian on any land in Victorian waters, to licence would be able to fish in New first obtain a fish culture permit. I South Wales waters including the move- River Murray. Whether there will be That the following sub-clause be inserted other reciprocating States, I cannot to follow sub-clause (2):- "( ) The Minister shall not grant a say at the moment, but I shall find permit under this section with respect to out. I shall make doubly sure of the any Crown land adjacent to a shore or with position and -advise the honorable respect to any Crown land in Victorian member. The problems of Victoria waters unless the applicant first obtains the and New South Wales concerning consent in writing of the Minister of Lands fishing have been much simpler than to the grant thereof." those relating t'O boating. The effect of the new sub-clause will be to ensure that there is no inter Sir EDGAR TANNER (Caulfield). ference with foreshores, to the I may be late in raising this matter, detriment of the community. but I have been trying to obtain inf'Ormation from someone who might Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows). know the answer to the problem. The Opposition does not oppose this There is no definition of "amateur amendment; it considers the provi fishermen " in the Bill. I am not sure sion to be reasonable. The Minister whether I can raise that matter at of Lands has certain responsibilities, this stage. and he should be in a position to express an opinion about the issue of The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. the permits. Wiltshire).-That matter is not dealt with in this clause. If it is not dealt The amendment was agreed to. with in a subsequent clause perhaps Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows). the honorable member for Caulfield I move- could raise it at the third-reading That the following sub-clause be inserted stage. to follow sub-clause (2):- ( ) A licence shall not be granted under The clause was agreed to. this section unless the Minister is satisfied that the applicant has published notice of Clause 25, providing, inter alia his intention to make application for the (1) Any person having the permission in licence in the prescribed form in some news writing of the Minister so to do (hereafter paper circulating generally in Victoria not in this Act called a "fish-culture permit") less than twenty-eight days before lodging may form or create a fish habitat for clams the application and that any person lodging oysters mussels scallops abalone crayfish objection to the grant of the licence have prawns yabbies eels fishing-bait bass mullet had a reasonable opportunity of being heard estuarine perch or salmon on any shore up in relation thereto. 2626 Fisheries [ASSEMBLY.] Bill. The Opposition feels that any person waters or streams flowing thereinto any matter or thing, whether liquid solid or or persons who may have legitimate gaseous, prescribed to be a poison for the objections to the issue of a fish 'culture purposes of this section or any other matter licence should have the opportunity or thing which is likely to render the to press those objections. waters poisonous or injurious to fish or to the spawning grounds spawn or food or Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Sec fish shall be guilty of an offence against retary) .-The Government accepts this Act. the amendment. Penalty: $500 or imprisonment for six The amendment was agreed to, months. and the clause, as amended, was Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Sec adopted, as were clauses 26 to 34. retary) .-For the reasons 1 outlined Clause 3'5 was verbally amended, when I made a statement by leave and, as amended, was adopted, as last night, 1 move- were clauses 36 and 37. That the following sub-clauses be added Clause 38 was verbally amended, to follow sub-clause (1):- and, as amended, was adopted, as ( ) The provisions of sub-section (1 ) were clauses 39 to 43. shall not apply to the Vermin and Noxious Weeds Destruction Board or its servants or Clause 44 was verbally amended, agents with respect to the use of poisons and, as amended, was adopted, as for eradicating vermin or noxious weeds were clauses 45 to 54. from Crown lands where those poisons are used in accordance with specifications pre Clause 55- viously furnished in writing by the Board Any person who marks tags or brands in to the Director. any manner whatsoever any fish without ( ) It shall be a defence to proceedings the authority in writing of the Director shall for an offence against sub-section (1) if the be guilty of an offence against this Act. defendant proves- Penalty: $100. (a) that having taken all reasonable Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows).- precautions against committing an 1 move- offence he had at the time of the alleged offence no reason to sus That the words "marks tags or brands in pect that there was in relation to any manner whatsoever any fish without the circumstances thereof any of the authority in writing of the Director" be fence against the provisions of omitted with the view of inserting the words sub-section ( 1) or in the case of "without the authority in writing of the an offence arising out of causes Director marks tags or brands in any man beyond his control that the cir ner whatsoever any fish intended to be cumstances were such that the com liberated in Victorian waters ". mission of an offence could not The purpose of the amendment is to reasonably have been foreseen; protect people who catch fish and (b) that on demand by an inspector who, without having any intention of or a member of the police force he gave all information and assistance releasing them, mark them so that in his power with respect to the they will know their own. This poison matter or things concerned; would protect people who take part and in contests organized, for instance, (c) that otherwise he acted innocently by the Victorian Piscatorial Council. and has, not less than seven days before Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Sec the hearing of the proceedings, notified the information in writing that he intends to retary) .-1 have no objection to this avail himself of the protection of this sub amendment. It might help in tracing section giving details of the reasonable pre the ownership of undersized fish. cautions which he claims he has taken or the circumstances which he claims could The amendment was agreed to, not reasonably have been foreseen. and the clause, as amended, was adopted, as were clauses 56 to 62. Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows). Opposition members have no objec Clause 63, providing, inter alia tion to the amendment. This clause (1) Any person who puts or discharges or causes to be put or discharged, whether caused us some concern. We directly or indirectly, into any waters con believed that persons eradicating taining fish or into any tributaries of those noxious weeds, at the direction of the Fisheries [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill .. 2627 Vermin and Noxious Weeds Destruc want to be unduly critical but, in tion Board, could inadvertently cases of this nature, the onus of proof cause pollution in a stream and, appears to be thrown on to the under the clause as it appears in the defendant. I hope that departmental Bill, render themselves subject to officers will use these powers with prosecution. That could have care because they could place applied to the staff of the Board or innocent people in a difficult position. to private citizens. The amendment The amendment was agreed to. will provide adequate protection. Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds). Mr. B. J. EVANS (Gippsland Sub-clause (1) relates to the poison East) .-Many people engaged in rural ing or pollution of waters containing pursuits, who were concerned about fish, and provides a penalty of $500 this aspect of the Bill, will welcome or imprisonment for six months. Sec the protection afforded by the amend tion 48 of the present Act is similar ment proposed by the Chief Secretary. and provides a penalty of '$50 to $100 Under the provision as drafted, a or imprisonment for two years. That private individual could be prosecuted penalty failed to control the pollution for using poisons to eradicate weeds of streams, and I believe this provi unless he had the consent in writing sion will have no greater success. of the Director. This applied to any person who directly or indirectly put In recent years the Maribyrnong the poison into waters containing fish. river and the Yarra river have become considerably polluted. The local ang A person using a spray pump on ling club has severely critized this as pastures could be found guilty of pect of the Bill and has expressed con putting poison into these waters. cern at the state of pollution of these That was not the intention of the streams. The Maribyrnong river is a Government. Whilst many people tributary of the Yarra river. In the are not convinced that the amend past, these rivers were extensively ment will provide adequate safe populated by fish of all varieties, but guards, at least it is a reasonable the streams are now depleted. The defence that precautions were Maribyrnong river is a salt water taken. Increasing concern is felt stream and is tidal almost to the end by many people in the community at of my electorate. The relatively few the indiscriminate use of insecticides fish that have been taken from the and weedicides and their effect gener river taste strongly of kerosene ally on fish and wildlife. It is fair and oil. To my knowledge, enough to expect that people who use the offenders have never been these materials should take adequate prosecuted. If State or Com precautions. monwealth Government Departments Officers of the Fisheries and Wild or instrumentalities have been life Branch do not always imple responsible for the discharge of ment the provisions of the Act in the sewage into these rivers, they should spirit envisaged by Parliament. Last take some action to prevent this Sunday, I was approached by a person pollution in future. whose master fisherman's licence In recent years, press notices have had been cancelled. An officer of the warned people not to eat mussels Branch told him he could not taken from the mouths of these two accept a position as a crewman on streams because of their severe his father's boat whilst the suspen pollution. Early this year the angling sion was in force. I did not believe society in my electorate conducted an that to be the case and, when I all-night fishing competition. At checked the matter with the Chief dawn, the Maribyrnong river was seen Secretary's Department, my belief to contain many dead fish. The was proved to be correct. I have matter was raised with the Fisheries heard of other similar cases. I do not and Wildlife Branch because it 2628 Fisheries [ASSEMBLY.] Bill. was obviously a case of pollution. It guilt. The provIsIOns of this clause was impossible to trace the offenders. are contrary to the accepted principles Therefore, the penalty provisions of of British justice. A man is innocent this sub-clause do not mean a great until he is proved gUilty. For the deal. reason 1 have outlined, the Com mittee should reject this clause. In approximately June of this year, Where does the principle stop? No a dead horse was seen to be floating doubt other amending legislation will backward and forward on the tide in provide a similar onus of proof. If the Maribyrnong river and it remain honorable members reflect, they will ed there for some time. Apparently realize the dangers of this clause. the authorities concerned had not noticed it. The Yarra river and the The clause was agreed to. Maribyrnong river are the main waterways in the metropolitan area. Clause 75 (Onus on defendant to If no attempt is made to control pol prove fish not taken from Victorian lution, the environment will be des waters) . troyed. It is time that some of the provisions now relating to pollution Mr. WILTON ~Broadmeadows). were discarded and that a major This clause contains a provision attempt was made to control pollu similar to that contained in the tion. last clause. The onus of estab lishing tha t fish were not Mr. B. J. EVANs.-Have you read taken from Victorian waters is the report of the Drainage Com placed upon the person charged. mittee submitted some weeks ago? As was the case under clause 74, the person charged must prove his Mr. EDMUNDS.-No, I have not. innocence. If honorable members This clause provides penalties for accept this provision and proclaim pollution, but the penalties under the themselves to be champions of old Act could not have been applied British justice, the Labor Party to the pollution of the Maribyrnong is not prepared to go along with them. river and the Yarra river. A water As 1 said when dealing with clause pollution control authority with some 74, it is a dangerous precedent and " teeth" should be established. no one knows where it will stop. The Opposition cannot vote for the clause, The clause, as amended, was for the same reasons as it opposed adopted. clause 74. Clause 64 was verbally amended The clause was agreed to, as were and, as amended, was adopted as clauses 76 to 80. were clauses 65 to 73. Clause 81, providing, inter alia Clause 74 (Onus on defendant to (1) The Governor in Council may make prove fish &c. not taken for sale) . regulations for the management and control of fisheries, for the protection and improve Mr. WILTON (IB~oadmeadows). ment of fish and for preserving good order among fishermen and in particular, without This clause provides- in any way limiting or derogating from the Where any person is charged with taking generality of the foregoing provisions of fish for sale contrary to the provisions of this section, for or with respect to- this Act or the regulations the burden of proving that the fish were not intended for (7) Regulations under this Act shall have sale shall be upon the person charged. effect notwithstanding anything to the con trary in any other regulation, by-law, pro I indicated during the second-reading clamation or Order made under the provi debate that the Opposition would sions of any other Act. not accept the principle that an accused should have to prove his Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Sec innocence. The informant should be retary) .-1 move- responsible for proving a person's That sub-clause (7) be omitted Liquor Control [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] (Amendment) Bill. 2629 The Government feels that this Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Sec curious provision is not necessary, retary) .-The amendment suggested and that it does not constitute good by the Council is a very simple one. Parliamentary practice. Proposed sub-section (14) of section 45, of Bill, as drafted, provided- The amendment was agreed to, as A permit under this section shal~ not be was a verbal amendment, and the issued until in the case of a permIt under clause, as amended, was adopted. paragraph (c) of sub-section (4) a fee ~f $250 and in the case of any other permIt The Bill was reported to the the fee fixed by the regulations has been House with amendments, and the paid. amendments were adopted. The following amendment has been suggested by the Council:- Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Sec That proposed sub-section (14) of section retary) .-1 move- 45 be omitted with the view of inserting the That this Bill be now read a third time. following :- "(14) The fee for a permit under this Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds). section shall be in the case of- I ask the Chief Secretary whether it (a) a permit under paragraph (b) of sub will be possible for a person to be section (4)-no fee; prosecuted under the Melbourne and (b) a permit under paragraph (c) of sub Metropolitan Board of Works Act, section (4) -$250; and the Health Act and this Bill for pollut (c) any other permit-the fee prescribed. " ing the Yarra river? The suggested amendment provides that if an unlicensed restaurant Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Sec desires to apply for a permit to have retary) .-1 fear that I cannot answer liquor brought into the premises, a that question off the cuff, but it does fee need not be paid. The purpose highlight a problem which the Gov of the amendment is to reduce, as far ernment will have to examine fairly as possible, the bar to such applica soon, namely, the introduction of tions. I move- specific legislation to deal with pol That this House do make the amendment lution, pesticides, and so on. When suggested by the Council. that day comes, I hope the Govern ment will receive the same support The motion was agreed to. from honorable members as it It was ordered that the Bill be has from the Deputy Leader of the returned to the Council with a mes Opposition and the honorable member sage intimating the decision of the for Broadmeadows in regard to this House. Bill. Sir EDGAR TANNER (Caulfield). LABOUR AND INDUSTRY Having been informed that the (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) amateur fishing organizations approve BILL. of the definition of an amateur as The debate (adjourned from Nov outlined in the Bill, I give notice that ember 20) on the motion of Mr. I will not proceed with my proposal. Rossiter (Minister of Labour and The motion was agreed to, and the Industry) for the second reading of Bill was read a third time. this Bill was resumed. Mr. FENNESSY (Brunswick LIQUOR CONTROL (AMENDMENT) East) .-When the Minister explained BILL. this Bill approximately two weeks This Bill was returned from the ago, there was quite a deal of reac Council with a message intimating tion outside Parliament concerning that ,on consideration of the Bill in the proposals contained in the Bill. It Committee it suggested that the has been aptly described as a mis Assembly should make a certain cellaneous provisions Bill, because it amendment in the Bill. consists of nineteen clauses, which 2630 Labour and Industry [ASSEMBLY.] (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. amend various sections of the Labour which are operating in a small way, and Industry Act, and most of the the powers can be transferred to amendments are not related. another board but, where jurisdiction no longer exists, the Opposition It could be said that this is a Committee Bill and, because it will believes the Minister should have the power to declare them defun~t. T~e be necessary to deal with the clauses Minister did not state dunng hIS individually in Committee, it is ~ot my intention to debate them dUrIng second-reading speech that he re the second-reading debate. However, quired any power to declare any I shall give a brief outline of some of wages board defunct, and I assume the proposals contained in the clauses. the honorable gentlman would not Three provisions have caused a require such power. I am sure that the great deal of controversy. I refer Minister would agree that such a to clause 3, which empowers wide power could be dangerous. The the Minister to declare defunct cer present holder of the Labour and tain wages boards; clause 4, which Industry portfolio is a reasonable deals with the right of appeal to the man, who could be expected to act Industrial Appeals Court; and clause in a reasonable manner. However, a 9 which relates to late shopping at future Minister may attempt to use Christmas. I do not intend to deal to the limit the powers vested in with many of the other provisions. in him by this Bill. The Opposition does the Bill during the second-readmg not want this power to be abused. debate, but shall do so in Committee. I trust therefore that, during the Committee stage, the Minister will In his second-reading speech, the assure honorable members that he Minister stated quite frankly that a does not seek power to declare boards number of wages boards are defunct defunct at any time, but only when at the present time. For example, the they are no longer operative. honorable gentleman referred to ~he Mr. ROSSITER.-I give the honor Tramway Conversion Board, ~~I.ch was established to control actIvItIes able member for Brunswick East the during the changeover from cable undertaking that he seeks. trams to electric trams. Undoubtedly, Mr. FENNESSY.-I thank the Min this Board would not be required to ister for his assurance. I now deal exercise jurisdiction in the com with the right of appeal to the In munity today. The Minister also dustrial Appeals Court. At present referred to' the Coal Miners Board. the Act requires a majority viewpoint Of course, there are very few coal from both the employers and the miners left in Victoria, and even those employees on a wages board before who are engaged in the industry ~ t an appeal can be taken to the Indus Wonthaggi do not come under thIS trial Appeals Court. Clause 4, .w~ich Board. The Gold Miners Board was amends section 45 of the prmcIpal also named by the Minister and, as Act, provides in effect that any honorable members are aware, there individual, irrespective of whether he are very few gold miners in Victoria is vitally interested in an industry, today. In fact, gold miners who have may apply to the Industrial Appeals remained in this industry are now Court to be heard in an appeal controlled by the Australian Workers against a decision of a State wages Union, and work under a Federal board. In other words, if cc Snowy award. on the trams" is not satisfied with a I am not familiar with the ramifica decision of a State wages board, he has the right to appeal to the tions of the Brewers Board and the Industrial Appeals Court. Admittedly, Flour Board, but the Minister stated under this measure, the court would that these Boards are now more or be empowered to say whether the less defunct. In the case of boards appeal could be heard. However, the Mr. Fennessy. , Labour and Industry [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. 2631 trade union movement is completely the City of Melbourne, in the provin opposed to this provision. The system cial cities and, in fact, throughout which is now operating has worked the State, closes at lunchtime or no very satisfactorily. The Minister later than 2 or 3 p.m. on Christmas stated that the request to alter this Eve. This enables employees to pro provision emanated from the Vic ceed on their holidays before Christ torian Employers' Federation. The mas Day. Honorable members are no honorable gentleman did not have the doubt familiar with the typical scene courtesy to discuss the proposal with on Christmas Eve at about 4 or 5 p.m. the trade union movement before when thousands of caravans, bringing in the enabling legislation. hitched to cars, may be seen heading for the Mornington Penin Mr. ROSSITER.-Should I go cap in sula, interstate destinations, and hand to the trade union movement? various holiday resorts. Mr. FENNESSY.-On occasions in Many people employed in shops and the past, when the trade union move offices book seats on areoplanes and ment has submitted proposals for trains which depart during the after amendments to the Labour and In noon of Christmas Eve, so that they dustry Act, the Minister has can can proceed on their holidays with vassed them around the Chamber of out delay. Apparently, the Minister Manufactures and the Chamber of is not aware of this situation. Has Commerce, even before making a the honorable gentleman ever been decision concerning them. If it is engaged in industry? What has he good enough for the Minister to act been doing all his life that he is not in this manner concerning proposals conscious of this fact? I suppose the submitted by the trade union Minister could be excused in some movement, it is good enough ways for this provision in the Bill, for him to intimate to' the because he has no knowledge of the trade union movement the proposals habits of the people in the community. of the Victorian Employers' Federa The honorable gentleman has his tion. head either in the sand or in the Mr. RAFF'ERTY.-Rubbish! clouds. Mr. FENNESSY.-I can under As recently as the 31st October, stand the interjection of the honor 1968, the Minister wrote to the sec able member for Glenhuntly, because retary of the Trades Hall Council on he has always allied himself with the question of shop trading hours the Chamber of Commerce; in fact, and, for the edification of the House, he is a committee member of that I shall read the letter so that it will be organization. The Opposition will placed on the record. It reads- strongly oppose clause 4. I refer to the deputations from the Vic torian Trades Hall Council which I received Clause 9, which amends section 80 on 5th June, 1968, concerning the question of the principal Act, relates to late of introducing a 5-days working week for shop assistants, by abolishing Saturday shopping at Christmas. I wonder morning trading and substituting one late from where the Minister derived this night per week and to our subsequent bright idea. It appears to have been correspondence concerning this matter. suddenly dragged out of the air. The I told you at that time that I would need honorable gentleman has decided that to investigate this question very thoroughly there will be a late shopping night on before coming to a decision whether I should the last full shopping day before make any recommendation to the Govern Christmas Day-in other words, on ment for amendment of the existing law. Christmas Eve. All honorable mem As you are aware, I have made com bers, with the exception of the Min prehensive inquiries since that time and have invited public comment. 'The response to ister, know only too well that, at that invitation has been quite overwhelming ;Christmas, practically every office in and I am able to say without any doubt 2632 Labour and Industry [ASSEMBLY.] (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. that .t~ere. would be a great deal of opposItIon m the community to the closing Trades Hall Council has made its of shops on Saturday mornings. position clear on this issue will be seen from the following extract from The concluding portion of the letter the report in the Age newspaper to is pertinent. It reads- which I referred:- . The Government has now come to the VIew that. the prese!1t legislation ought not On .Thursday the Victorian Trades Hall to be v!lned-that IS, neither should shops CounCIl . secret~ry (Mr. M. C. Jordan) told a coun~ll meetmg th~t the Shop Assistants' be reqUIred to close on Saturday mornings Federation should dIrect its members not nor should they be permitted to open late to work after normal closing time on Christ on week days. mas Eve. You will also be interested to know that it has been decided to discontinue the He claim~d last night that a large Mel late night shopping that has been permitted bourne .retaIl firm told the Shop Assistants' for s~me time in the City of Traralgon. I Federation yesterday that it did not intend have mformed the Town Clerk of that city to open on Christmas Eve. ~hat I am .revoking the exemption which I Honorable members may draw their Issued earlIer and that this revocation will own conclusions as to which large be published in the Government Gazette next week. retail firm it is. The r-eport con tinued- Although this letter was written on Mr. Jordan said no one he had spoken to 31st October of this year, only a favored the Government's move. couple of weeks later, the Minister " In justifying the scheme Mr. Rossiter has introduced into this House a measure said that it was requested from an out-lying authorizing late shopping at Christ country area. "We are amazed at the discourteous mas. Honorable members may well manner adopted by the Minister in failing ask whether this in the thin edge of to consult either the Victorian Trades Hall the wedge, and whether it represents Council or the Shop Assistants' Federation an attempt to introduce late shopping on the late night shopping proposal. into the community. It could well be "We regard it as a straight-out exhibition asserted that it is. As the Opposition of bad manners". is opposed to late shopping, we will That is the true position. At no time strenuously oppose this clause. ?id the Minister consult the people In¥olved. Apparently the Minister When the Minister announced his thinks he can make a decision and the intention to introduce this Bill, it people will obey it. brought forth a reaction from outside Mr. ROSSITER.-This was a Govern this House. Naturally, the Shop ment decision. Assistants' Federation and the Trades Hall Council were concerned at the Mr. FENNESSY. - I wonder proposal. An article in the Age news whether the Minister took this pro' paper of the 30th November of this posal to Cabinet for examination. I year dealing with this question asked have great respect for some Minis the pertinent question, "Who wants ters and believe that if the proposal it? ". The Minister stated that he had been closely examined the Bill had been approached concerning it would not have reached this House. I by a storekeeper in a country town. have already outlined the ·intentions Was he approached by a storekeeper of Opposition members, who will op at Upotipotpon or Moombledoo? No pose clauses 4 and 9, ·and I have regis one knows the identity of the store tered our protest to clause 3 keeper in the country town who first which provides the Minister with requested a late shopping night prior the power to disband wages boards. to Christmas. It is ridiculous to The Bill should have been more suggest that, because of a request sped-fico The Minister has now made from a country town, legislation a specific statement and has given an relating to late shopping at Christmas assurance that only defunct wages should apply throughout the State. boards will be abolished. Obviously, employees would be re Mr: R. S .. L. McDON~LD (Rodney). quired to work during the late -ThIS BIll compnses nineteen shopping night. The fact that the claus·es, some of which are good Mr. Fennessy. Labour and Industry [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. 2633 and others of which are not so been returned by the people with an good. The Country ·Party does not overwhelming majority-and no one favour clauses 3, 4 and 9. Australia can deny that this Govemm·ent was has a population of approximately returned with such a majority-it has 12,000,000 people, but countries a duty to advance proposals which en where shops do extensive business able retailers to provide service to the during late night shopping hours have public. This has already been done populations of up to 200,000,000 with respect to petrol shop trading people, who are able to support such hours, hotel trading hours and the hours. It is possible that, if shops in Fifth Schedule shops trading hours. Australia remained open at night, the The areas in which the public may proprietors would sustain losses. receive service from retailers has been Mr. ROSSITER.-Is that the situa progressively widened. tion now with hotels? The Labour and Industry Act con Mr. R. S. L. McDONALD.-Hotels trols shop trading hours. There has do not enter into this question. The always been pressure from the buying Minister is speaking of something that public for extra hours during the is not provided for in the Bill and is week before Christmas in which to trying to confuse the issue. When purchase goods for Christm·as, and the the honorable gentleman makes such Government has agr·eed that there statements he reveals that he does should be a night's trading before not know what the Bill contains. He Christmas. This amending Bill pro should take another look at the Bill vides that this extra trading shall be and see if he is doing the right thing. on Christmas Eve. I give notice to the If our population were large enough, we would be obliged to give the ser Committee that at the appropriate vice, but at present the population of stage I shall move an am·endment to Australia does not warrant late night enable trading to be undertaken on shopping. I hope the Minister will the night of the first full day before reply to this point and enlarge on his Christmas eve. The Government is remark in relation to hotels. amending the Bill because it is con vinced that the night before Christ Clause 9, which provides for late mas eve would be a better night than Christmas shopping, is a ridiculous Christmas eve itself. provis·ion to bring in at this stage, and the Country Party will oppose it. Al Mr. FENNESSy.-Why is that? though the Bill has some good points, it also contains bad provisions, and in Mr. ROSSlTER.-For some of the Committee the Country Party will reasons put forward by the honorable oppose those dauses that it considers member for Brunswick East. People should be opposed and support those might have decided to go away on which it feels should remain in the holidays on the Christmas eve and Bill. might have made their travel -arrange The motion was agreed to. ments. In a sense, the trading facili ties for the general public in M·el The Bill was read a second time bourne close down from about 3 p.m. and committed. of Christmas eve. The honorable Clause 1 was agreed to. member for Brunswick East keeps in Clause 2 (Repeal of provisions for terjecting, and I ask him to stop peck dividing Victoria into districts). ing at me like a bloody fox terrier. Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. and Industry) .-Honorable members Wheeler).-Order! Undoubtedly the should clearly understand the role Minister made that remark in the heat of a Government in a Parliamentary of the moment, and I request him to democracy. Where a Government has withdraw. 2634 Labour and -Industry [ASSEMBLY.] (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. Mr. ROSSITER.-I withdraw, Sir, The Government stands by that but not the words " fox terrier". The statement, but not in regard to a week Government is prepared to listen to day in the Christmas w'eek when representations ma~e to it. It -is be members of the public still wish to lieved that people in the community, shop on a night before Christmas. including shop assistants, may not People might not have completed their be able to do all their shopping Christmas shopping for all sorts of at the last minute, so an opportunity reasons. This Bill is not an insidious is being given to them to shop dur or subversive attack on the trade ing the Christmas period. The hon union movement or the shop assis orable member for Brunswick East tants' union, or on their wages and conditions; its purpose is to allow made great play about the trade people to have more time in which to union movement and the Trades Hall do some shopping at a particularly Council. Christian time of the year, when they Mr. TURNBuLL.-Will you not call are concerned with the Christian epic him the shadow Minister of Labour of Yuletide. This Bill affords Parlia ment an opportunity to say to the and Industry? people, " Do your Christmas shopping Mr. ROSSITER.-I would be de and have a little longer time in which lighted to do so if The Constitution to do it ". Act Amendment Act provided for it. The member for Brunswick East The position referred to by the honor also quoted from the Age newspaper, able member is not recognized by in which it was stated that Mr. Jor Parliament or by statutes, and I would dan was amazed at the discourteous be remiss in my duty if I referred t'O manner of the Minister. Mr. Jordan him as the shadow Minister of Labour is being amazed continually because and Industry. all sorts of things are happening within the trade union movement. He The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. is being amazed because 27 unions Wheeler).-Order! I would be remiss will not pay their affiliation fees to if I did not ask the Minister to relate the Trades Hall Council. his remarks to the Bill. Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West). Mr. ROSSITER.-I accept your re -On a point of order, Mr. Acting buke, Mr. Acting Chairman, but the Chairman, the Minister's remarks are honorable member is not the shadow not relevant to the debate. Minister of Labour and Industry The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. within the terms of this Parliament. Wheeler).-Order! I must uphold the The ACTING CHAIRMAN.-Order! point of order. The Minister must re late his remarks to the Bill. Mr. ROSSITER.-The honorable member for Brunswick East referred Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour to the letter addressed by me to the and Industry).-I am sure that I am secretary of the Trades Hall Council not out of order if I refer to Mr. Jor dan as being amazed. The honor in terms of the council's approach to able member for Brunswick East me with a deputation to consider the stated that Mr. Jordan was closing of shops on Saturday morn amazed, and he is also amazed that I ing, with the ,alternative opening on a did not consult him on this matter. week night. As quoted by the honor Does a Government in a democratic able member I said- society always have to run cap in The Government has now come to the hand to the Trades Hall Council on view that the present legislation ought not matters of Government policy? I be varied-that is, neither should shops be required to close on Saturday mornings, 'remind" 'the Committee of the legis nor should they be permitted to open late lation introduced to bring about re on week days. forms in the bread industry. On that Labour and Industry [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. 2635 occasion there were consultations be Government on the question of tween the Government and the whether the day involved should be Trades Hall Council. Christmas eve or the night before Christmas eve. The Government has Mr. TURNBULL ~Brunswick accepted one of these proposals, and I West) .-On a point of order, is this have given notice of my intention relevant to the debate? to move an amendment t.o clause 19. The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. The honorable member for Rodney Wheeler).-On this occasion the hon indicated that members of the Coun orable gentleman is making an at try Party were not happy with certain tempt to compare a relevant situ aspects .of the Bill, and in particular ation. with clauses 3, 4 and 9. I find this Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour strange. The honorable member and Industry) .-1 am using it purely challenged me to demonstrate the as an illustration. There have been relevance between my interjection to times when the Ministry of Labour him about trading hours in hotels, and Industry and the Trades Hall which this Government widened, and Council have been in close consulta trading hours referred to in the Bill. tion on all sorts of matters,and this It may well be that these trading practice will continue. I hope the hours are regulated by different Trades Hall Council, interested as it Acts, and although the Government is in the trade union movement, but has altered trading hours in various perhaps not representative of the en avenues, the principle is the same. tire movement, and the Ministry of The Government has widened the Labour and Industry will continue to trading hours for the selling of petrol. discuss matters of mutual benefit and Hotel trading hours and trading hours concern. for small shops have also been ex tended, and therefore it seems rea In this case, as a matter of policy, sonable, relevant and logical to the Government decided to do certain examine Christmas trading hours in things. These things have become the retail area purely for the con public knowledge as a result of the venience or the public. Representa publication of my second-reading tions have been made that the ex speech, and responsible and interested tended trading hours should apply on organizations and individuals have the night before Christmas eve, and made representations to the Govern an amendment to that effect will be ment and to the Opposition on what introduced. is proposed. Indeed, the Opposition has consulted the Trades Hall Coun I give the honorable member for cil, and vice versa. I hope, for the Brunswick East an assurance that the sake of the trade union movement, action taken by the Government to that the dissident unions will make amend sub-section (2) of section 20 their position clear because they have of the principal Act by clause 3 is no' voice in the matter. in regard to defunct wages boards and to no others. The honorable The Government makes no apology member listed a few defunct wages for having introduced this point of boards such as those relating to cable policy into this Parliament. Between trams, coal mining and gold mining. the time I made my second-reading These boards are defunct and the speech and the resumption of the Government is cutting away the dead debate, representations were made by wood. There are approximately 230 the Trades Hall Council to the wages boards in Victoria and they Opposition, and the point of view form a first-class system of concilia .of the Trades Hall Council has now tion and arbitrati.on. It is a cheap been put bef.ore .parliament. Repre system, and it might be a good idea sentations have also been made to the if it were extended to the Federal 2636 Labour and Industry [ASSEMBLY.] (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. sphere. To make this system oper Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour ate efficiently the Government pro and Industry) .-If the honorable poses to cut away the dead wood, and member for Rodney had quoted from that is being done by the amendment an earlier part of my second-reading contained in clause 3 of the Bill. speech· he would have realized that the situation was entirely different The honorable member for Bruns from that which he envisages. I re wick East also referred to the amend ferred to the Brewers Board, the Flour men t to section 45 contained in Board, the Industrial Life Assurance clause 4 of the Bill in regard to the Canvassers Board and the Tramways right of appeal. On this point the Board, and then I said- distinction between the philosophies In order that this dead wood can be cut of the Labor Party and the Liberal from the healthy tree of the wages board Party become apparent. The honor system, it is proposed to amend section 20 able member for Bunswick East said so as to allow the Governor in Council to abolish a wages board without having first that he was opposed to an individual transferred its powers to some other board having the right to appeal to the or boards. Industrial Appeals Court against a decision of a wages board. This The boards to be abolished without seems to me to underline the totali having their powers transferred will tarian approach of the socialist Labor be those boards which are considered Party, whereas this Government looks to be defunct. to the individual in the community as The clause was agreed to. the mainspring and as the unit within the community which will determine Clause 4 (Appeal). its prosperity, initiative and drive within a democratic system. I reject Mr. FENNESSY (Brunswick East). the proposal put forward by the hon -It is the intention of the Labor orable member for Brunswick East. Party to vote against clause 4 be cause members of our party consider The clause was agreed to. that it unnecessary. The appeal sys tem at present operating is working Clause 3 (Abolition of wages efficiently. We believe in the principle board) . that employers or employees have Mr. FENNESSY (Brunswick the right to appeal to the Industrial East) .-The Minister of Labour and Appeals Court against the decision of Industry has made his position per a wages board. Possibly many hon fectly clear. He has given an assur orable members are unaware of the workings of the wages board sys ance that the amendment contained tem and how appeals can be made to in this clause, relates only to defunct the Industrial Appeals Court. I know wages boards, and does not mean that the honorable member for Glen that he will have the right to declare huntly is familiar with the position. wages boards defunct. Members of the Labor Party believe Mr. R .. S. L. McDONALD (Rodney). in the wages board system, and we -I accept the assurance given by the accept the right of appeal to the In dustrial Appeals Court. Generally, Minister but it seems to me to decisions of wages boards are hon be in conflict with what he said in oured by all parties, but in some cases his second-reading speech in these appeals are made from the decisions terms- of a board to the Industrial Appeals so as to allow the Governor in Council to Court which 'consists of a Judge, a abolish a wages board without having first transferred its powers to some other board representative of the trade union or boards. movement and a representative of the employers' association. It is a fair Surely the Government would not be and reasonable court of appeal and transferring the powers of a defunct anybody who appealed to it would Board. get justice. Labour and Industry [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. 2637 Mr. RossITER.-Including indivi Chamber of Manufactures read all of duals. the decisions in respect of a particular determination to which the employer Mr. FENNESSY.-I fail to see why concerned is not opposed, and they an individual who may be displeased say, "If this is permitted to go into with a decision of a wages board that award, it may get into other should have the right of appeal to the awards". If the Chamber of Manu Industrial Appeals Court. In fact, the factures feels that a particular award honorable member for Glenhuntly is could be detrimental to its members, having a second look at this. The it will approach the Industrial Appeals proposals contained in clause 4 pro Court to seek leave to appeal. vide that the Industrial Appeals Court can decide whether or not it will hear The relevant provision in this the appeal on the facts put before it, clause refers to an individual, and I irrespective of whether the person ask honorable members why an who makes the appeal is connected ordinary individual should have the with the industry. It is on record right to meddle in the relationship that on one occasion a mem which exists between employers and ber of a wages board appealed employees. A provision of this type to the Industrial Appeals Court. is in conflict with the wages board The decision handed down to the system as we understand it. particular party was not very com Mr. RAFFERTY (Glenhuntly).-I plimentary. The Industrial Appeals do not think any honorable mem Court believed that the system which ber believes that the wages board now operates and the decisions which system is under attack. It was sug are taken by wages boards gener gested by the honorable member for ally are fair and impartial. This clause Brunswick East that there might be proposes that an individual may ap some implied criticism in the provi peal to the Industrial Appeals Court. sion contained in clause 4 that the The principal Act does not provide system was not operating satis for that, and the Opposition believes factorily, but I do not think that that that it should not provide for it. The is the case at all. I am sure all hon system is working well and efficiently, orable members believe that the and the Labor Party can see no wages board system is working well. reason why any individual should I personally do not believe that it is have the right to lodge an appeal. the best system, for it has many In many cases the appeals would shortcomings, but it is operating be frivolous. This happens when vex satisfactorily. atious litigants are involved. A I see no reason why the Govern situation could be reached in which ment should not give an individual a stream of people would be taking the right to appeal if he wishes. I appeals to the Industrial Appeals remind Opposition members that Court. For those reasons it is the the provision contains the words Opposition's intention to vote against "any person may, with the leave clause 4 and to call for a division. of the Industrial Appeals Court ". Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick The honorable member for Bruns West).-The proposed new sub wick East suggested that trivial cases section (lA) of section 45 of the could be brought before the Industrial principal Act is grossly unfair. There Appeals Court, but I suggest that are many good employers who either those words make it clear that the agree with their employees to a con court will give leave to appeal only sent determination or, if the matter after it is satisfied that the complaint has been fully debated and argued is a valid one. before a wages board, do not feel It is quite easy to understand why disposed to lodge an appeal. On members of the Labor Party want the other hand, members of the appeals to be lodged only by the 2638 Labour and Industry [ASSEMBLY.] (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. trade union movement or-as they should the Minister be suddenly feel bound to -add-by employer or interested in incorporating this clause ganizations; but I remind them that into the Labour and Industry Act? there are hundreds and hundreds of Who asked him to do it? On his own people who do not wish to belong to admission, he was approached by the the trade union movement because Chamber of Manufactures, which they do not like it. Many wish to wished it to be included. lodge appeals if they have valid cases. Many people do not wish to be Did the Minister consult the trade represented by employer organiza union movement? Did he ever sub tions. For those reasons, in bringing mit this clause to the Trades Hall forward this measure the Government Council or to its secretary, Mr. is doing a service to a group in the Jordan, and ask him for his opinion? community which does not wish to As I pointed out in my second be tied to trade unions or employers' reading speech, on many occasions organizations. proposals have been put forward by the trade union movement to Min Because wages boards have been isters of Labour and Industry. The run in a certain manner over the movement has suggested ,amendments years, it is not to say that, so to the Act, and it is kno\vn that their far as individuals are concerned, submissions have been canvassed. If the wages boards should be a it is good enough for preceding Minis closed book. I believe that the ters to follow that course-on House should support this sensible occasions the present Minister has provision, which is consistent with done so-why was this proposal the Government's attitude right throughout in attempting to afford not submitted to the trade union everyone a just opportunity, if he movement? desires, to air his views as he wishes. It is not good enough for the He should not be forced to be tied to Government merely to say that the the trade union movement or to any provision has been suggested by the other body. Chamber of Manufactures or the Mr. FENNESSY (Brunswick East) . Chamber of Commerce. Being the -The honorable member for Glen Government that it is, and having the huntly said that the Opposition's weight of numbers, it believes that it case was that it wanted to exclude does not have to consult anybody. people outside the trade union It makes a decision and people can movement from lodging appeals take it or leave it. That is the against a wages board decision. That attitude of the present Minister, is not the view of the Opposition, and it is resented by members of the although it may be the view of the Opposition. We also resent the Gov member who represents the Chamber of Commerce, because he is inter ernment's practice of using sheer preting his own thoughts on how the weight of numbers to force the Chamber of Commerce would apply passage of proposed legislation of this itself in a particular case. type. The Opposition opposes the clause and will call for a division. It is true that there have been many decisions with which the Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour Chamber of Commerce and the and Industry) .-1 am constrained to Chamber of Manufactures have not reply to a point raised by the honor been satisfied, and on many occa able member for Brunswick East. sions they have appealed to the Indus The honorable member said that rep trial Appeals Court. In our view, that resentations were made to the Gov is a very fair course to follow, -and ernment by the Chamber of Manu nobody disputes it. This system has factures, but I remind him that, in worked well in the past, so why my second-reading speech, I said, Labour and Industry [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. 2639 Representations have been made to the trade union movement and the Trades Government for some years, in this case Hall Council but, unfortunately, it by employer interests . . . appears that he is losing his battle; That does not mean that the Chamber but that is another story. of Manufactures or the Chamber of Commerce is the specific point of The rights of persons who are not representation. I continued- members of an organization should be protected, and the Government stands to amend the Act to allow appeal pro ceedings to be taken by additional classes on that statement. of persons. The Committee divided on the The employer interests to which I clause (Mr. L. S. Reid in the chair). referred could be a minority of the associations concerned, or a minority Ayes 47 of the Chamber of Manufactures and Noes 16 the Chamber of Commerce. Members of the Labor Party have pr.otested Majority for the many times over the years about the clause 31 rights of minorities, and this Bill affords access to the courts for AYES. Mr. Balfour Mr. Reid minority groups within the community Mr. Billing (Box Hill) which may not be represented by the Mr. Birrell Mr. Ross-Edwards Chamber of Commerce, the Chamber Sir John Bloomfield Mr. Rossiter of Manufactures or the trade union Mr. Borthwick Sir Arthur Rylah Mr. Broad Mr. Scanlan movement. It must be a dreadful Mr. Buckley Mr. Smith thing for the Opposition to know that Mr. Cochrane (BeUarine) the trade union movement is not rep Mr. Darcy Mr. Smith Mr. Dixon (Warmambool) resentative of all the groups in the Mr. Doyle Mr. Stephen community which are 'on the em Mr. Dunstan Mr. Stokes ployees' side of the industrial move Mr. Evans Mr. Suggett ment. There are individuals who (Gippsland East) Mr. Tanner Mrs. Goble (Morwell) would be distressed if the trade union Mr. Hayes Sir Edgar Tanner movement were called upon to rep Mr. Loxton Mr. Taylor resent them, for they want to repre Mr. MacDonald Mr. Templeton sent themselves at the Industrial (Glen Iris) Mr. Trethewey Mr. McDonald Mr. Trewin Appeals Court. (Rodney) Mr. Vale Mr. Manson Mr. Wheeler Mr. FENNESSY.-You are not a Mr. Meagher Mr. Whiting trade unionist. Mr. Mitchell Mr. Wiltshire. Mr. Moss Mr. ROSSITER.-I have been a Mr. Porter Tellers: trade union member for nearly 40 Mr. Rafferty Mr. Jona years. Mr. Reese Mr. McKellar. Mr. FENNESSY.-You sound like a NOES. Mr. Clarey Mr. Sutton trade union hater. Mr. Divers Mr. Trezise Mr. Edmunds Mr. Turnbull Mr. ROSSITER.-I am a hater of Mr. Fennessy Mr. Wilkes some trade unions, which deliberately Mr. Floyd Mr. Holding Mr. Wilton. besmirch the democratic principles in Dr. Jenkins Tellers: which we believe. I believe that some Mr. Mutton Mr. Ginifer of the trade unions which are led by Mr. Stoneham Mr. Ring. the communist influences in this com PAIR. munity ought to be looked at closely. Sir Henry Bolte I Mr. Lovegrove. I must admit that the secretary of the Victorian Trades Hall Council has Clauses 5 and 6 were agreed to. waged a war against them for years Clause 7 (Regulations as to ven iri 'an effort to dislodge them from the tilation) . 2640 Labour and Industry [ASSEMBLY.] (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. Mr. FENNESSY (Brunswick regulations cover physical work East) .-In his explanatory second ing conditions and safety, health reading speech, in referring to' this and welfare pravisians-where an clause, the Minister stated-":'" organization desires to obtain uni Since Federation, constitutional issues of formity, an objective which is the respective jurisdictions of the States and achieved in many fields under the Commonwealth have always loomed Federal awards. The Minister be large in the areas of the law within the administration of Departments of Labour, lieves there cauld be an erosion af but perhaps they have loomed somewhat the regulatians as they apply within larger in recent years. In particular, the the State and are controlled by this States have been concerned at the erosion of their constitutional powers, which has Parliament. The Minister went an to occurred by the inclusion of provisions con refer to discussions that have taken cerning certain matters in awards made by place recently between the States and the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitra arganizations of employers and tion Commission under the Conciliation and Arbitration Act. In most cases, I think, these emplayees in the Federal award field. would not have been arbitrated decisions, Althaugh members af the Oppasition but would have been incorporated in awards believe the clause is a warth-while as the result of agreements reached between the employer and employee organizations amendment, we desire to make ane which are parties to the awards. suggestian to the Minister. It is that the regulatians shauld at all times Of caurse, that is true, but many abtain until the questian af standardi of the awards that are determined zation becomes final. In other words, are based an agreements which have there cauld be a time lag between the already been reached between attaining af standardizatian and the emplayer and emplayee arganizatians. time when he is prepared to' accept All that the Cammanwealth Can standardization as opposed to' the ciliatian and Arbitratian Cammissian regulatians. When a time lag accurs, daes is mare ar less to' ratify the the regula tians should at all times agreements. The Minister went an gavern these factars. to' say- The particular matters with which the The clause was agreed to", as was States have felt the most concern are, first, clause 8. what I have already called "physical work ing conditions" and which may also be Clause 9- called, "safety, health and welfare provi sions" and secondly, provisions concerning After the proviso to sub-section (1) of apprenticeship in the skilled trades and the section 80 of the Principal Act there shall administration of apprenticeship systems. be inserted the following further proviso :- The fact is that this Parliament may legis "Provided further that when Christmas late on these matters, but the will of the Day occurs on a Tuesday, Wednesday, Parliament may be set at nought by the Thursday, Friday, or Saturday all such shops process of representatives of employer may remain open on Christmas Eve until organizations and trade unions getting to the hour of nine o'clock and when Christ gether, making an agreement, and having it mas Day occurs on a Sunday or Monday either registered as an agreement under the all such shops may remain open on the Commonwealth Act or incorporated in a Friday immediately preceding Christmas Federal award made under that Act. Day until the hour of nine o'clock." That is true also. The Minister Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour emphasizea his fear in relatian to' and Industry) .-1 shall explain the the erasian af the pawers af the propased amendments which have States. It is natural that he, as a been circulated. The clause, as member af this Gavernment and drafted, makes pravisian far an apparently a gaad Liberal, shauld increased periad af trading an Christ be a State-rightist and nat believe in mas Eve. In view af the paints made the centralizatian af pawer. Mem by members af the public and bers af the Oppositian understand interested parties, the Government the Minister's thinking in this regard, naw feels that it shauld amend the which might be apprapriate alsO' in Act to' allaw for the Christmas a situatian such as this-where trading periad to' be extended an the Labour and Industry [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. 2641 night before Christmas Eve. The would be a good idea. All honorable amendments seek to give effect to members, and the community in gen that proposal. I move- eral, can take it from the Opposition That, in the proposed proviso to sub that this will be the first of many section (1) of section 80 of the principal moves to extend trading hours. The Act, the word "Tuesday" be omitted. people do not require any help from Mr. FENNESSY (Brunswick the Minister on this matter. Appar East) .-Members of the Opposition ently, he has not received many ap oppose this clause because we do proaches about this; the suggestion not believe in a late shopping night. that there should be a late trading It is strange that the Minister at this night on Christmas eve is his own stage has responded to pressure and is directed towards breaking brought upon him by organizations down existing conditions. Appar which have approached him over the ently, the Minister feels that he is more powerful than the wages board. past two weeks and have persuaded Next, he will be telling the Judges of him to abandon his idea of the late the Arbitration Commission that he Christmas Eve shopping night and to knows more about the situation than provide for a late shopping night on they do. I am sorry for the Minister the day before Christmas Eve. Mem because power is going to his head. bers of the Opposition are opposed Let us get away from the considera to the extension of late shopping tion of Christmas ; the purpose of this hours. The Minister is inconsistent Bill is to introduce a late shopping in his attitude, particularly in view night. The Opposition rejects the of his letter to the Victorian Trades proposal, and will take the matter to Hall Council in which he stated he a division. intended to see that there was no late shopping on any week day and that Mr. R. S. L. McDONALD (Rodney). Saturday morning shopping was not -The Country Party opposes the abolished. In other words, the Min extention of trading hours proposed ister took the stand that he intended by the Bill, first, on the ground to maintain the status quo. The Min that it is premature. Victoria ister is inconsistent because at this does not have the concentration of late stage he has changed horses in population to warrant extended trad mid-stream and now intends to ing hours. Our conditions are not introduce late shopping nights. like those in the United States of America which has a population MR. ROSSITER.-It is "a" late of 200,000,000, and where late shopping night. trading hours are common. To introduce extended trading hours here Mr. FENNESSY.-This will be the would merely break down existing old old story. If someone wants to change something, he first applies a trading conditions-or is it that the little touch, but then keeps up the Minister intends that extended trad pressure. I believe it is the intention ing hours shall become general? of the Minister to use this measure Mr. ROSSITER.-That is irrelevant. as a wedge for the purpose of intro ducing late shopping on other occa Mr. R. S. L. McDONALD.-It is not sions. The next thing we will hear irrelevant. One cannot have one's will be that there are to be late trad cake and eat it, too. Trading hours ing nights on the eve of Father's Day, should not be extended at this time. on the eve of Mother's Day and per haps on Easter eve. Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds). -It is possible that the Minister has Honorable members interJecting. been approached on this subject, but Mr. FENNES'SY.-The reaction of I have been approached by traders in members on the Government benches my electorate who oppose this meas indicates that they believe that ure. For small suburban traders who 2642 Labour and Industry [ASSEMBLY.] (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. operate in community shopping late will be the 20th, 23rd and 24th centres-particularly in areas where December. The Mildura Chamber of there are such establishments as Commerce is recommending that the Northland-this is a retrograde step. late shopping night should be the It would be of no benefit to the small 23rd December, that is, the last period trader to remain open for an extra of shopping before Christmas eve. couple of hours on Christmas eve. As it happens, this falls into line with He would merely have to face addi the amendment now proposed by the tional burdens in providing services Minister. and paying wages, while most cus tomers would be attracted to the The Ouyen Chamber of Commerce larger shopping areas because of the and the Shire of Walpeup, which in " specials" offered there. The ex cludes the town of Ouyen, have sug periment of extending trading hours gested to me that a provision on the for the convenience of workers on lines of clause 9 should be inserted in the natural gas pipeline was a failure. the principal Act. Throughout the There was much agitation to stop it. whole of this year, I have corresponded If, as a result of trading hours being with the chamber of commerce, the extended by this Bill, the Minister shire, and the Minister of Labour and received representations from small Industry on this subject. The stage has shopkeepers that they should be dis now been reached that the amend continued because of the burden im ment necessary to allow shops posed on them, would the Minister throughout Victoria to remain open introduce further amending legisla until 9 p.m., for this one night prior tion? When the Minister replies to to Christmas, has been proposed. I the criticism that has been levelled at emphasize that the clause provides this measure, perhaps he will make that shops " may" remain open until a statement about that. 9 p.m. Mr. WHITING (Mildura).-Mr. The traders of Ouyen do not wish Chairman, if the clause is to be to lose business to Mildura or to any amended, I should prefer to speak other town. Robinvale, for instance, when the amendment had been agreed has now been declared to be a tourist to. Would I be in order in speaking area under section 80A of the Act. to the motion "that the clause, as The Shire of Walpeup also wants amended, be adopted?" shops in Murrayville to be allowed to remain open late on Christmas eve. fhe CHAIRMAN (Mr. L. S. Reid). The traders in other towns, such as The honorable members may speak Underbool, Sea Lake, and Mananga on the clause and on the proposed tang would welcome this provision so amendment. that they may observe later trading hours on Christmas eve if they wish. Mr. WHITING (Mildura).-I should make my position clear. In a In Ouyen, the late shopping night division on the amendments proposed will be treated as a gala occasion. by the Minister, I should have to sup Possibly, people from the metropoli port them. The traders of Ouyen, a tan area will contribute to business township some 70 miles from Mil in the town, and so help reverse the dura, want a late trading night prior trend of business going to the city. to Christmas to bring them into line Traders in small towns take pride in with Mildura, and, it was thought, the service that they provide to people Swan Hill. Under section 80A of the living in surrounding areas. They Labour and Industry Act-which should not have to lose trade to larger allows special trading hours in holi centres where shops may remain open day resorts-Mildura may have late later than they do in a small town. trading hours for fifteen weeks in any one year. This year, the first three Mr. ROSSITER.-Would the shop nights on which shops will be open assistants go on strike? Labour and Industry [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. 2643 Mr. WHITING.-I believe that the Minister of Labour and Industry has shop assistants in places like Ouyen been talking of things about which he are as much in favour of the sugges knows nothing. He keeps criticizing tion as are the traders and the people the Trades Hall Council. Where did from the surrounding area. If the the move for this Bill come from? clause as proposed to be amended is Obviously, it came from the Minis defeated, a penalty will be imposed ter's bosses in the Golden Mile who on traders in these small towns. want to attract trade to Northland, Many honorable members may not Chadstone shopping centre, and be aware how many towns have quali similar places. The Minister is out fied as tourist towns. I have already of step with the people who mentioned Mildura and Robinvale. support his party. I shall read Others such as Echuca, Bairnsdale some of the correspondence which and Wangaratta, as well as many I have received on this matter. places on the River Murray, have also Swain's Shoe Store Proprietary been declared to be towns in tourist Limited, which is one of the biggest areas. stores in High-street, Preston, has The secretary of the Victorian protested against the proposed late Branch of the Australian Labor shopping hours. In a letter to me Party, Mr. Hartley, was recently run dated 25th November, 1968, Mr. F. ning around the countryside loudly Swain stated- proclaiming that the Labor Party My company wishes to protest against would be the salvation of wheat the proposed late shopping on Christmas growers and people in country towns. Eve. Here is a matter on which that party We feel that the inconvenience of arrang ing experienced staff for one night's shop could assist those people. The wheat ping is unwarranted, and practically impos harvest runs on to Christmas and, sible on this particular night. The conditions if the weather is suitable, farmers in Ouyen are totally different and cannot be invariably harvest on Christmas compared with those in Melbourne where most of the work force commence Christmas Day. The provisions in clause 9, as holidays on 19th December, therefore pro proposed to be amended, would be viding ample opportunity for shopping. to the benefit of many people in wheat We would appreciate strong protests growing areas. being made against such a proposal. Some dissension has arisen on this Reference has been made to the matter because the Associated chambers of commerce. However, Chambers of Commerce have made these organizations are not in favour contact with the larger chambers of commerce in the State to enlist of the proposal. I received the opposition to this measure. The following telegram at Parliament chambers of commerce are based in House- the metropolitan area and, again, this Please oppose Bill for extension shopping is evidence of the domination of city hours Christmas period . . . Preston organizations over organizations in Chamber Commerce. country areas. This is something Other people have also been in con which I cannot accept. I thank the tact with me and have expressed Minister for his help and under their opposition to the Government's standing of the problems I have proposal. The shopkeepers in High raised with him. For those reasons, street, Preston, are not happy about I shall support the clause and the this Bill because they believe it is the amendment. forerunner of things to come-it is Mr. RING (Preston).-I could not the thin edge of the wedge. I support listen to what has been said during the honorable member for Brunswick this debate and not support the East and reiterate the view of the sound case advanced by the honorable Opposition that it will not have a bar member for Brunswick East. The of late shopping. 2644 Labour and Industry [ASSEMBLY.] (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. Mr. FENNESSY (Brunswick East) . NOES. -The honorable member for Mildura Mr. Balfour Mr. Reid stated that he supports the amend Mr. Billing (Box Hill) ment because certain small shop Mr. Birrell Mr. Rossiter Sir John Bloomfield Mr. Scanlan keepers in country towns in Sir Henry Bolte Mr. Smith his electorate have asked him Mr. Borthwick (BeZZarine) to endeavour to have the shop Mr. Dixon Mr. Stephen Mr. Doyle Mr. Stokes ping hours amended to' conform Mr. Dunstan Mr. Suggett with the provisions contained in the Mrs. Goble Sir Edgar Tanner Tourist Act. The success of their Mr. Hayes Mr. Taylor Mr. Jona Mr. Templeton representations would alter the shop Mr. Loxton Mr. Trethewey trading hours situation throughout Mr. MacDonald Mr. Vale (Glen Iris) Mr. Wheeler Victoria. Representations have been Mr. McKellar Mr. Whiting made from only a small section of the Mr. McLaren Mr. Wiltshire. community, and this does not justify Mr. Manson Mr. Meagher Tellers: the amendment of the principal Act to Mr. Porter Mr. Smith bring about an extension of late shop Mr. Rafferty ( Warmambool) ping hours. Members of my party Mr. Reese Mr. Tanner. oppose the amendment. PAIR. Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and Industry) .-It is interesting to Mr. Lovegrove I Sir Arthur Rylah. note that the honorable member for Mildura, who is a highly intelligent Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and responsible member of the and Industry) .-1 move- Country Party, has disagreed with the That the words " or Saturday" be majority view of his party. It will omitted with the view of inserting the words be interesting to see what happens " Saturday or Sunday". when this measure reaches another The amendment was agreed to. place. Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour The Committee divided on the and Industry) .-1 move- question that the word proposed by That, after the word" on ", where second Mr. Rossiter to. be omitted stand part occurring, the words "the day preceding" of the clause (Mr. L. S. Reid in the be inserted. chair)- Ayes 26 The amendment was agreed to. Noes 38 Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and Industry) .-1 move- Majority for the That the words " on a Sunday or amendment 12 Monday" be omitted with the view of inserting the words " on a Monday or AYES. Tuesday". Mr. Broad Mr. Mitchell Mr. Buckley Mr. Moss The amendment was agreed to. Mr. Clarey Mr. Mutton Mr. Cochrane Mr. Ring Mr. Divers Mr. Ross-Edwards The Committee divided on the Mr. Evans Mr. Stoneham clause, as amended (Mr. L. S. Reid in (Gippsland East) Mr. Sutton the cbair)- Mr. Fennessy Mr. Trewin Mr. Floyd Mr. Turnbull Ayes 38 Mr. Ginifer Mr. Wilkes Mr. Holding Mr. Wilton. Noes 26 Sir Herbert Hyland Dr. Jenkins Tellers: Mr. McDonald Mr. Edmunds Majority for the (Rodney) Mr. Trezise. clause, as amended 12 Labour and Industry [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. 2645 AYES. the employment of persons under 21 Mr. Balfour Mr. Rossiter years of age. Apprentices are no Mr. Billing Mr. Scanlan Sir John Bloomfield Mr. Smith longer employed in pharmacies, there Sir Henry Bolte (Bellarine) fore the section is unnecessary and Mr. Borthwick Mr. Smith ought to be repealed. Mr. Doyle ( Warmambool) Mr. Dunstan Mr. Stephen The clause was agreed to, as were Mrs. Goble Mr. Stokes Mr. Hayes Mr. Suggett clauses 13 and 14. Mr. Jona Mr. Tanner Mr. Loxton Sir Edgar Tanner Clause 15 (Certificate of appoint Mr. MacDonald Mr. Taylor ment of inspectors) . (Glen Iris) Mr. Templeton Mr. McKellar Mr. Trethewey Mr. FENNESSY (Brunswick East). Mr. McLaren Mr. Vale -This clause provides that every Mr. Manson Mr. Wheeler Mr. Meagher Mr. Whiting inspector shall be furnished by the Mr. Porter Mr. Wiltshire. secretary with a certificate of his Mr. Rafferty appointment, which should be pro Mr. Reese Tellers: Mr. Reid Mr. Birrell duced on demand to the occupier or (Box Hill) Mr. Dixon. person in charge of the building or NOES. place the inspector intends to enter Mr. Broad Mr. Mitchell or enters in the course of his duty Mr. Buckley Mr. Moss under the Act. This is a necessary Mr. Clarey Mr. Mutton provision, and the Committee will Mr. Cochrane Mr. Ring Mr. Divers Mr. Ross-Edwards agree that every inspector should be Mr. Edmunds Mr. Stoneham armed with an authority. When Mr. Evans Mr. Sutton there was trouble with the bread (Gippsland East) Mr. Trewin Mr. Fennessy Mr. Turnbull industry, inspectors were not permit Mr. Floyd Mr. Wilkes ted by some owners to enter the Mr. Ginifer Mr. Wilton. Mr. Holding factories. Once the authority is Sir Herbert Hyland Tellers: produced, no owner will be able to Mr. McDonald Dr. Jenkins Mr. Trezise. refuse the right of entry to inspectors (Rodney) from the department. PAIR. Sir Arthur Rylah I Mr. Lovegrove. The clause was agreed to, as were clauses 16 to 18. Clause 10 (Repeal of provisions as Clause 19 (Exceptions from pro to painting, &c., of interiors of visions as to general closing hours). bakehouses) . Mr. FENNESSY (Brunswick East). Mr. FENNESSY (Brunswick East). -Under the old Labour and Industry -This clause provides that shops for Act, supervision of the painting, and the sale of aviary and cage birds and so on of interiors of bake-houses was for the sale of acquarium fish shall necessary. The Opposition agrees be added to the Fifth Schedule. that this supervision is already pro As the Committee knows, a certain vided for under the Health Act and number of shops included in the Fifth that section 124 is a duplication. Schedule are permitted to trade out The clause was agreed to, as was side the normal trading hours. The clause 11. Opposition has always taken a stand Clause 12 (Repeal of provision as regarding the extension of the num to demanding premium for employ ber of Fifth Schedule shops. Today, ment of person under 21 years). it is gold fish and birds; tomorrow Mr. FENNESSY (Brunswick East). the Government might propose to in -Section 137 of the principal Act clude in the Fifth Schedule butchers, relates to apprenticeships in phar grocers and similar shops. The macies, and involves a premium for Opposition does not believe it is 2646 Door to Door (Sales) [ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill. necessary to include the two types The motion was agreed to. of shops listed in the clause in the Mr. G. O. REID (Attorney Fifth Schedule, and therefore opposes General) .-The second amendment the clause. is consequential on the amendment, The clause was agreed to. which has just been adopted. I move- The Bill was reported to the House That amendment No. 2 be agreed to. with amendments, and passed through its remaining stages. The motion was agreed to. LIQUEFIED GASES BILL. MELBOURNE UNIVERSITY This Bill was returned from the (COUNCIL) BILL. Council with a message relating to This Bill was received from the amendments. Council and, on the motion of Mr. It was ordered that the message ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and be taken into consideration next day. Industry), was read a first time. MEDICAL (ORGAN DOOR TO DOOR (SALES) TRANSPLANTS) BILL. (AMENDMENT) BILL. The debate (adjourned from No This Bill was returned from the vember 26) on the motion of Mr. Council with a message relating to Manson (Minister of State Develop amendments. ment) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed. Mr. G. O. REID (Att'Orney General) .-The two amendments Dr. JENKINS (Reservoir).-For a which have been made in this Bill by number of years, transplants of another place were suggested by the various organs from one person's honorable member for Brunswick body to another have been going on, West when this measure was under but it was not until a few months consideration in this House. Clause ago when Dr. Barnard performed the 3 of the Bill, which inserts a new world's first heart transplant opera sub-section (2) in section 3 of the tion in South Africa that the full principal Act, provides that when a implications of these procedures vendor fails to give the purchaser " 'hit" the ordinary members of the certain documents, he shall be liable community, persons concerned with to a penalty. As the Bill was drafted, legislation and doctors concerned an offence was constituted only when with the conduct and ethics of the the vendor failed to give two different practice of their profession. It was types of documents to the purchaser. not until then that the true serious The honorable member for Brunswick ness and implications of the situation West suggested that it should be an were fully realized. Following offence if either of the two documents the first heart transplant operation, was not passed 'On to the purchaser there has been a spate of such pro of the goods. I gave consideration to cedures, the majority of them of this suggestion and, as a result, questionable benefit to the indivi appropriate amendments were duals concerned 'Or the community. adopted in another place. The Perhaps they have supplied some in first amendment simply inserts in the formation for future progress in sur new sub-section the words "either gery of this type. of" so that it will be clear that a Earlier types of organ transplants, vendor who fails to give either of the such as blood transfusions, have gone two documents in question to a on for many years. There were, for purchaser shall be guilty of an example, corneal transplants in which offence. I move- the cornea was taken from cadavers That amendment No. 1 be agreed to. and used for unfortunate people who · Medical (Organ [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Transplants) Bill. 2647 needed them. Just as with the it was advancing science and that the maJor organ transplants, the trans individuals concerned were, perhaps, plant of a cornea had to be a pro less than human beings. Probably, cess carried out almost at once. The some honorable members have ex corneal tissue can now be stored, amined some of the reports that were under proper conditions, for long published after the second world war. periods of time. Renal transplants Once one is involved in these proced have also taken place. Originally, ures and once one has to make a de renal transplants involved the use of cision that there is a time to take kidneys dona ted by live persons. A material from one body and trans kidney is one of those organs of plant it into another human body, I which we are fortunate to have two, am convinced that one could become and a human being can get along with callous to the conditions which could only one. It was easier to obtain occur, and there may be increasing from live persons kidneys that were infringements on the rights of human to be used in transplants. Honorable beings to survive. members are familiar with the or ganization that is necessary to re One medical practitioner in the move such organs promptly so community discussed this matter in that they can be used for unfortu the early stages and, in speaking of na te sufferers of renal disease. these ethical considerations, he made the remark that perhaps we might find With the advent of heart surgery, that some mental institutions are be consideration is now being given to ing used as organ farms for donees. lung transplants and liver transplants. He was grossly misreported because This is a most difficult surgery, and, he was reported as suggesting that from the moral and ethical points of this should occur-that the person view, it is the most difficult area in who had no real knowledge of his which to make a decision. The first environment could be used for this decision which must be made before purpose. However, he was trying to taking an organ from a cadaver is point out that one could become so whether the person from whom the callous in having to make a decision organ will be taken is dead. A num ber of attempts have been made to as to where an organ came from that define the moment -of death and the this situation could be reached. This best that could be said in this re is a matter which should concern all spect is that the decision should be honorable members. We are faced left to the discretion of the doctor with the proposition whether this who is attending the case. The Bill legislation is worth while at present. provides that the person who shall Initially, when it was mooted that decide on the death ·of a donor must be someone who is not involved in transplants might be carried out the transplant procedure. It is diffi in our hospitals, the Minister of cult to envisage how someone can be Health sounded a note of warning divorced completely from the pro and indicated that he might be pre ceedings when the question of pared to consider certain action if whether the transplant shall proceed this was done precipitously. At that depends upon his decision. This is stage I supported the honorable one area which will require continual gentleman's attitude. Some criticism examination. was made of the Minister to the effect While members of the medical pro that perhaps he was interfering with fession usually try to conduct them the practice of medicine and the doc selves on the highest ethical prin tor-patient relationship. In proced ciples, we have heard of human ex ures of this type where death is cer perimentation-often, it amounted to tain to occur in one of the individuals, extermination-in the past carried out or life cannot continue, and the other on the Continent with the excuse that is subject to grave risk, I believe the 2648 Medical (Organ [ASSEMBLY.] Transplants) Bill. Minister had the right to sound a a profession, should ask whether the warning. However, I am not so keen steps that are being taken are really on the Bill which he presented to worth while to the extent of benefit- Parliament. ting the individual. Members of the Opposition will not One thing that causes me concern oppose the Bill but we wonder is the type of pUblicity that accom whether it will be really w·orth while. panies these procedures. It is It is the result of an interim report 'nauseating, and it disgusts the from the National Health and Medical ordinary individual when human Research Council which attempts to beings and human lives are dissected solve some of the problems. This in public, not only in the press but by council is continuing its activities and all the other media of mass communi I believe it has indicated that when cation. It fills me with disgust and it has completed its work and sub Parliament should seriously consider mitted recommendations, amend plaCing a prohibition on it. One hopes men ts may be necessary to this legis that these mass communication lation-in fact, amending legislation media will establish suitable ethics to may be introduced. For this reason, cover the situation. I wonder whether this measure will serve a worth-while purpose Mr. B. J. EVANS.-YOU are an whether at the moment the job is in optimist. fact only half done. Dr. JENKINS.-That may be so, Certain aspects of the measure but I mentioned a previous situation need clarification. The conflict of where familiarity could lead to cal interest amongst medical practition lousness and contempt. I do not sug ers is covered by the Bill. The con gest that this is done deliberately by sent of the relatives is also clarified. these people, but the repeated pub I suppose the measure serves those licity of these cases acts as a safe particular purposes. The whole busi guard against callousness and con ness, particularly with the major tempt. organ transplants, is in such a state of flux that I wonder whether it will The Opposition will not oppose this benefit a large number in the com Bill, but it questions whether it is munity. Is the cost of this "spare premature. It is hoped that the meas parts" surgery worth while when ure will assist in certain areas, but there is still so much to be done in Opposition members look forward to the prevention of disease and deform a continuing examination of this ity in the community? While I was whole fi'eld of major organ trans in the United States of America, it plants, so that the community will not was stated that one of the heart pat lose its conscience in this matter. ients in New York survived only for Mr. MITCHELL (Benambra).-The a few days but the total cost of the Country Party views this Bill either surgery amounted to $US27,OOO. as something that is really harmless, One questions whether the transient impotent, inoperative and small, benefit that might occur from this following the example of other procedure justified the strain that was States in Australia, or something placed on the relatives, the patient which causes a good deal of appre himself, and the doctors concerned, hension. The honorable member for because they become personally in Reservoir has stated that the concept volved, and whether that sort of ex of organ transplants is not new. penditure would not be better used Cannibals have been doing it for in basic research for the prevention years, but when the cannibal puts the of disease. I raise these questions missionary in the pot he is only seriously. Perhaps people as a com adapting the missionary's organs to munity, and medical practitioners as his own use. Dr. Jenkins. Medical (Organ [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Transplants) Bill. 2649 Dr. JENKINs.-For a therapeutic The honorable member for Reser purpose! voir did not refer to the spiritual aspect, which loomed largely at the Mr. MITCHELL.-Now the boot is time of the corneal grafting Bill, and on the other foot and missionaries honO'rable members will recall that, condemn cannibals for this practice, with a view to ascertaining what the but the cannibals are saying to the good men of religion felt about this missionaries, "We were right all the aspect, the debate on the Bill was time". This is nothing new. In adjourned for 48 hours and a special Samuel Pepys's time blood was taken committee of all parties was formed from animals and human beings and to meet the leaders of the various put into people's bodies, and as long churches. After these gentlemen had as 25 years ago there were corneal examined the Bill, they felt there grafts. The focus has been directed could be no objection to it. It must be to it in latter days only because of realized that people have spiritual two matters. First, we are not deal feelings in this matter. ing with a non-vascular organ such as the cornea of the eye, but a We are only at the beginning of vascular organ such as the heart or these procedures, which eventually kidneys. Secondly, there is a time will grow into a vast science the like factor. When a kidney is removed of which the world of medicine has there can be a wait of, perhaps, half not seen, and care must be taken not an hour before it is placed in the to offend people's theological sus recipient body, but with the heart it ceptibilities. The question O'f ethics is literally a matter of minutes and was touched upon by the honorable virtually there are two lives at stake. member for Reservoir, but difficulties arise when the press wants sensa There are various aspects to be tional news. It will be recalled that considered-medical, spiritual, ethi when a woman in Queensland was cal, and legal. Regarding the medical about to give birth to quintuplets the side, I realize that in the presence of press promised that her name would the honorable member for Reservoir not be revealed, but the newspapers I am out of my depth; nevertheless, made the facts so clear by ancillary there are two aspects as I see them. informatiO'n that they really put a First, there is the mechanical side. label on the woman. This sort of There is very little in joining up the thing is difficult to control and some vascular system from the body which sort of watch should be exercised in is receiving the organ and the organ this area to avoid any form of cal itself. The difficulties and dangers lousness. It must alsO' be remembered arise in the chemical side of the body, that doctors under their Hippocratic which may reject the new organ. A oath are tightly bound regarding any splinter in the foot may cause fester form of advertising, but if they are ing, but it is not because of the actual able to receive some publicity and lesion or laceration of the foot by the fame for having saved a life by a splinter; it is the strange chemicals successful transplant I have a feeling which the body does not like, and the that the information may leak out. white cells of the blood rush to' repel The ethical side of the question is the foreign body; this causes the extremely hard to deal with. fester, which is only the polymor phonuclea leucocytes which have Perhaps the most interesting point died in the battle to save the body is the forensic-medical or legal side, from disease. The moment there is and in this respect the Bill could be any form of human bodily differentia a thoroughly dangerous piece of tion, there is the strong possibility of legislation. From the speeches that the body rejecting a particular organ have been made in another place and which has been brought from some from what has been said by honor one else. able members in this House, doubt 2650 Medical (Organ [ASSEMBLY.] Transplants) Bill. has been piled on doubt, and un Mr. SUTToN.-The thealogians did certainty piled nn uncertainty. The not say that. National Health and Medical Re Mr. MITCHELL.-I am concerned search Council has not yet stated more with the forensic medical side what it thinks of the matter, and af things and I leave the thealagical there is the possibility that a Com aspect to the honorable member for monwealth conference of Attorneys Albert Park. It is well known that General will examine the farensic death is nat just a mamentary thing medical side af this legislatian. At like a candle blawing aut in the wind. present there is a state af canfusian It is quite a protracted pracess. These an the pOint af what cauld be a days various pracesses exist which "green light" to' murder. The Bill were nat available in the aId days to' fails lamentably in that it daes nat prO' lang life and to' defeat death. define when a death accurs. This is These days there is a heart failure a seriaus amiss ian fram the Bill be and the man is apparently dead. Haw cause hanarable members want to' ever, in the aId days he was dead. Ta knaw when a persan is actually dead. day there is heart massage. In the As Valtaire said- case af failure af breath there is arti He who would argue with me must first ficial respiration. The whale pracess define his terms. is lang and there is mare uncertainty. When lawyers want to' knaw whether Take the case af the yaung girl a persan is right ar wrang, innacent Sheran Jacksan, whO' was in the ar guilty, in a legal prablem, they first Carryang haspital. She was a seek definitians. It is like a key brilliant yaung high schaal student fitting intO' a lack. Dactars shauld whO' was hapelessly mangled in a nat be led up the garden path. If matar smash. The dactar at the this Bill is passed, as undaubtedly it haspital tald me she died twice when will be, dactars may easily fail with she was an the aperating table. The transplants, and if there is a death dactar put up an incredible perfarm they may be in trauble. The defini ance and the girl is alive taday even tian af murder cammences with the thaugh she is crippled fram the waist wards "unlawfully killing a reasan dawn. I suppase the dactar cauld able creature". Is the pracedure pres have said, "This girl is dead, why cribed in the Bill lawful? Daes the Act warry abaut her? Sameane else wants make the pracedure lawful? Hawever a heart ar a kidney, sa let us take the decent and skilled a dactar may be, heart and the kidney aut of Miss daes it lay him apen to' a charge af Jacksan and give them to' ather unlawful killing? peaple." If that had been dane in stead af naw setting an example af There is a great danger to' the human caurage and incredible fighting medical prafessian in this Bill in that spirit, this girl wauld have been dead. they may gO' ahead in gaad faith, but If there had been a terrible rush to' if they cause the death af a persan get her spare parts the warld wauld they may find themselves charged have been deprived af a Christian with murder. I cannat see that they example af the highest passible are pratected fram a charge af unlaw standard. ful killing because there is this lack Hanarable members can see haw af a definitian in the legislatian. It the whale questian af when death must be remembered alsO' that there accurs has changed. It makes us has been a change in the whale mare emphatic an what we cansider idea af when life passes fram shauld be cantained in the Bill. Haw the human bady. In the days af ever, the Gavernment is lamentably Lister if a persan's heart stapped ignarant. What is the key definitian beating the dactar af the day to' this situatian? What is the key said that he was dead; if he stane to' the whale arch af this stapped breathing, he was dead. prablem. Mr. Mitchell. Medical (Organ [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Transplants) Bill. 2651 Mr. WILCox.-What is that? The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Mr. MITCHELL.-The Minister of Christie).-I invite the honorable Transport has just walked into the member to relate his remarks to the Chamber. Bill. Mr. MITCHELL.-That is the The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon danger, Mr. Speaker. You have put Christie).-Order! The honorable your finger on the point. There is an member for Benambra should ignore urgent need for medical knowledge of interjections. transplants. We do not usually use Mr. MITCHELL.-The Minister is the metaphor of doctors like vultures entitled to an answer. It is the ques around the dying body stropping tion of when death actually occurs their scalpels on the soles of their and there is a lamentable omission shoes, but I am concerned that in the and neglect of definition in proposed desire to help the human race a grave section 44A of the Bill. The Bill con mistake may be made. I refer honor tains definitions of hospital, medical able members back to the case of the superintendent, relative and thera girl at the Corryong hospital and the peutic substance, but there is no exact point that there is an urgent need to definition of when a person is do something that will help the com deceased. munity. Work done by the doctors in the early days of dissection was In the early days of the last century invaluable to the later race of doctors when there was a strong demand for and the work of doctors today on bodies to forward medical knowledge organ transplants is invaluable, but we heard of the group called the we do not want history to repeat resurrectionists. People would bury itself and people who could live for their relatives in the family church some months or perhaps years die yard and as SOon as it was dark before their time. The law of the land the body was dug up and sold to says quite definitely that they must doctors who asked no questions. not. There was no orderly marketing in Except for those apprehensions those days, probably because there which members of our party have as was no Country Party, and the supply a result of a good deal of deep of bodies was insufficient to meet the research into this matter we feel that needs of the medical profession. One the Bill should be passed. It does or two commercial tycoons-they bring the laws of Victoria into line would have been Sir Arthur Warners with the laws of other States, but it if they had lived today-really got on leaves many things in doubt. At the to the problem. The firm of Burke moment kidneys, hearts, lungs and pancreas are being transplanted and and Hare started to murder people later on there will be a tendency to and the doctors who were desperate recover intestines, spleens, bones, for bodies for research and accord marrow, muscles and brains. A human ingly would not ask questions were body may be walking around the getting bodies which were still warm. streets of Melbourne rather like Then a well known young lady was Robert Burns's axe which had six murdered in Edinburgh. She was well new heads and ten new handles. known for her ability to satiate certain There has been a break through in moments of male tension and when medical science since the days of her body appeared on the dissecting Lister, and the Country Party does slab at the medical school everybody not oppose the Bill. recognized her. The doctor concerned The motion was agreed to. disappeared in disgrace, one of the The Bill was read a second time and men turned King's evidence and the committed. other was hanged on 5th December, Clause 1 was agreed to. 1831. Clause 2 (Interpretation). 2652 Medical (Organ [ASSEMBLY. ] Transplants) Bill. Mr. MITCHELL (Benambra}.-On writing because it will be too easy this question of definition, cannot for some organization to say, "We something be adopted as a starting will hack his kidneys out and use point? I realize as well as does the them for the blonde upstairs." For Minister the problems we are up the protection of all concerned this against. It is a matter of acute request should be in writing. difficulty. I should like to hear from An oral request is not enough. the Minister whether something Another thing which has been over can be done to make an attempt to looked, I feel, is the mental state of define when death actually occurs. I the person who makes the request cite the case of Dr. Balcombe Quick, tha t a part of his body shall be used who was operating on a patient, and for therapeutic purposes after his the anaesthetist said, " Mr. Quick, the death. Can this be done if a person is patient is dead" to which Mr. Quick not of correct mental balance? In this replied, "He is not at my end". The State criminals cannot be hanged if retort of the anaesthetist was, " He is they are thought to be mentally de at mine." The whole question is ranged. In Corryong there was the difficult, and I appreciate the difficulty case of a man bitten by a snake, and of the Minister in defining the moment the question was raised whether a when life really can be said to have dying man had the power to make a left a person. There was the case in will, and, also, whether his mind was Albury where a man was badly affected. This should be closely mangled in a glider accident and lived examined. A safeguard should be in for four hours. I am trying to .eluci cluded in the Bill to ensure that a date this point by giving examples. person must be of normal mental To my way of thinking this Bill will capacity at the time of making a re be inoperative and impotent unless there is an attempt made to define quest. I do not care for the idea of a the moment when it can be said that a person making such a request when, person is dead. because of sickness or for some other reason, he is not in a normal The clause was agreed to, as were mental state. the remaining clauses. The motion was agreed to, and the The Bill was reported to the House Bill was read a third time. without amendment, and the report was adopted. PESTICIDES (PROCLAMATIONS) BILL. Mr. MANSON (Minister of State The debate (adjourned from Development) .-1 move- October 29) on the motion of the Sir That this Bill be now read a third time. William McDonald (Minister of Mr. MITCHELL (Benambra). Lands) for the second reading of this There is one point in the Bill that I Bill was resumed. am not happy about and no reference Dr. JENKINS (Reservoir).-The has been made to it in the debate. It Opposition does not intend to oppose is the question of a man, during his this Bill. In view of the fact that some last illness, expressing a certain of the operative proclamations have request. This person is sick unto been in force since 1917, I accept the death and according to the Bill he explanation of the Minister in his can express a request that such second-reading speech that it is in organs as are needed for someone deed to be what might be called a else can be taken from his body. I tidying-up Bill. In view of the change may be wrong in this regard and if in the chemical structures of insecti I am the Minister can correct me, but cides, pesticides, vermin destroyers this is an oral request and that is not and weedicides, the provisions of this good enough. Consideration should Bill are necessary. It is understand be given to expressing the request in able that the situation should be Pesticides Proclamation [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 2653 made much clearer to those con The Minister spoke of the use of cerned in the manufacture, use and pesticides in agriculture,' but I be distribution of these substances, be lieve the public generally are much cause it is a matter which raises many more aware of the dangers of using wider issues, so far as the declaration these substances than previously. of such substances into particular Perhaps that is due to' the reading of groups is concerned. books such as Rachel Carson's, Silent Over the years, a number of honor Spring, and Jamie L. Whitten's, That able members, including myself, have We May Ltve. I commend this book drawn attention to the concern that to honorable members. It is obtain has been expressed with regard to able from the Parliamentary Library, the effects of these chemical groups. and in chapter 5, under the heading Members of the House have dis " Are Pesticides a Hazard to Man? ", cussed the books, Silent Spring and the author writes- Man in His Environment. Still another study focused on fifteen There is a people who had worked in a chlordane plant whole range of books devoted to the from one to fifteen years. Under constant but matter. Concern has been expressed very small exposure to the insecticide, they at the altered ecology that has re showed no evidence of injury to any of their body organs. Since their exposure was sulted from the use of these sub greater than could be expected for users stances, and a pesticide committee of the chemical, the investigators concluded has been formed to make recommen that it presented little if any hazard when dations on how the effects of the sub properly employed. stances can best be controlled. The The words "properly employed" substances concerned are widely are the important ones, because it is used throughout the community. from misuse that harm is caused. The primary producer uses them in Honorable members may have been massive doses, and even the home fortunate enough to see the television gardener, with gay abandon, tends to programme "Impact" which ap double the recommended dose. peared on the national channel last The Australian newspaper yester Monday. It contained a complete day published a letter which com coverage of the use of nerve gases mented on the cumulative effects of throughout the world today and the DDT. The letter states that the cumu horrifying effects of these com lative effects on a warm-blooded pounds. It also showed some of the animal are not so important, although effects of 2-4-D and another weedi they do occur, but that the effects cide known as picloram which was accumulate in a cold-blooded animal. being used in an attempt to eradicate One wonders what will be the over skeleton weed. Its effects are all effect of the accumulation of these devastating; in fact, it poisons the substances, how much these soil for a very long period and is chemicals are affecting our environ dangerous to people who inhale or ment, and what will be the future absorb it in fairly large quantities. that people will reap. I believe the Government must be ·Mr. WHITING (Mildura).-The constantly aware of the problems Country Party supports this Bill. As associated with the misuse of chemi the honorable member for Reservoir cals which are available for agricul has said, some of the proclamations tural and other purposes; and any were made many years ago, as far measure designed to tighten control back as 1917. Some pesticides that is fully supported by the Country are no longer in use are still on the Party. list of proclaimed substances. The Country Party feels that there is no The motion was agreed to:. necessity for this. The Bill also con The Bill was read a second time, tains a consequential mechanical and passed through its remaining amendment. stages. Session 1968.-97. 2654 Stock (Artificial Breeding) [ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill. STOCK (ARTIFICIAL BREEDING) the herd in a certain manner. The ap (AMENDMENT) BILL. proved sires that the organizations or The debate (adjourned from groups or co-operatives have had at November 27) on the motion of Sir their disposal have generally been ap William McDonald (Minister of proved for a certain reason. They Lands) for the second re-ading of this have been approved because they Bill was resumed. were from a particular blood strain that will produce a greater quantity Mr. TREWIN (Benalla).-This Bill of milk in dairy herds or a higher t'est proposes to amend the Stock (Arti ing for cream, or, in the case of a beef ficial Breeding) Act, and the Country herd, a higher or quicker reproduction Party supports it. The measure is in units of weight. The breeders of concerned with the development of such stock in Victoria are well to the scientific, modern aids which are fore in ensuring that their stock are used by man to assist in breeding improving to such a degree that they improved strains of stock in a shorter can see some future in their breeding period than was previously possible. methods. This Bill permits the importation of Clause 4 makes provision in rela semen for use in certain fields. Not tion to unsatisfactory results of per long ago semen was illegally formance tests and for records of pro introduced from overseas in duction to be considered before ap another State, and a great deal of proval of a sire is cancelled. Record panic was caused because of the ings are made in minute detail and possibility that exotic diseases tests are carried out. If the sire is not could be introduced into Australia. producing satisfactorily or -its progeny I am not sure whether even this Bill are not satisfactory, approval of the will ensure that all the features of sire will be cancelled. quarantine will be adhered to. No In Victoria and Australia interested doubt most of these provisions come persons desire to improve their herds. under the Federal Department of The importation of semen from over Health, and Victoria can deal only seas for the purpose of improving a with the particular features .of the herd or raising a breed up to a par Act as it concerns the State. The Bill ticular standard can be carried be ensures that the sale and use of semen yond the realms of appreciation. I must, after having been collected consider that we in Victoria have at from approved sires, be contained and our disposal stock of a quality which recorded so that those who desire to is equal to that of any other country. use it on their herds may be assured From time to time, judges or stud that the semen is from approved ani masters from overseas visit this coun mals. In Victoria there are certain try and inform us that our breeding groups of co-operatives which are methods are sound and that our herds and studs or flocks compare favour using this method of insemination for ably with flocks and herds overseas. the breeding of stock in an endeavour The foundation of many herds and to raise the standard of their herds flocks came from overseas countries or flocks. where the breeds were developed and evolved. Climatic conditions in this It must be agreed that the people country have allowed further develop who are so interested in the feature ment and improvement. Furthermore, of artificial insemination. are acting in stud masters in Australia are well up the best interests of stock generally. in the use of modern techniques in Often in the past a sire has been im relation to the development of cattle ported into a herd because it had a or sheep. You, Mr. Deputy Speaker, pedigree that was considered to be of as one who is interested in the export such a nature that it would improve of cattle, no doubt would desire to Stock (Artificial Breeding) [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] (Amendment) Bill. 2655 have the best breed that is available in the use' of imported semen, but the world to start or improve a stud. genetics is a very complex subject. I The method that is adopted in Vic should like to be assured by the toria in order to reproduce through Minister that, in relation to artificial artificial insemination the characteris insemination with imported semen, tics of a breed in which we are par this subject will be given adequate ticularly interested, can be further consideration by the Chief Veterinary developed and is being well managed. Inspector. Great care must be exer: The Country Party supports the Bill. cised in the applicati.on of controls to ensure that our stock maintains -its Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds). high level of quality. Side-effects from The Opposition supports this measure imported semen could involve all which was fully debated in another sorts of transmutations which in the place. From humble beginnings two or long term could be detrimental to Vic three years ago more than 200,000 torian herds. Apart from those few animals are now being artificially in comments, the Opposition supports seminated annually. The Opposition the Bill. is aware that strict precautions are taken toO ensure freedom from disease The motion was agreed to. in stock and that the transmission of genetic disease -is controlled. This Bill The Bill was read a second time and primarily moves us to another stage committed. of artificial insemination. It will per Clauses 1 to 5 were agreed to. mit control to be exercised over semen imported from the United Clause 6 (Certain persons may use Kingdom and European countries. As semen for operation of artificial in I understand it, the first batch of semination). semen is expected to arrive in this Mr. TREWIN (Benalla).-Sub-sec country next year. It is important that tion (1) of proposed new section 10 health testing of this semen and par provides that a person shall not use ticularly of the sires is maintained. It semen for performing the operation of is also essential to ensure that stock artificial insemination on any stock standards in Victoria are maintained. unless he is a veterinary surgeon or The point I wished to develop, a person possessing the prescribed briefly, relates to genetic standards. qualifications. I ask the Minister what Within human beings it is a study that are the prescribed qualifications and has been pursued for many years, and who determines whether a person is it is still not well known. I am some qualified. what concerned that some of the Sir WILLIAM McDONALD (Min genetic standards of our stock ister of Lands).-The persons possess could be lowered by the ing the required qualifications are the importation of semen from either persons to whom I referred in my Europe or the United Kingdom. I explanatory second-reading speech as realize that we are aware of foot and having been trained at Werribee. The mouth disease problems, but genetic qualifications are determined by the diseases could cause the industry in Department of Agriculture, and I Australia, and in Victoria particularly, should presume would be authorized a good deal of concern in the future. by the Minister. In-breeding has always been a great problem and recessive-type diseases The clause was agreed to. could result from the lack of control. The Bill was reported to the House I am well aware that the Chief without amendment, and the report Veterinary Inspector has the power to was adopted. approve imported semen and with the Sir WILLIAM McDONALD (Min consent of the Commonwealth Gov ister of Lands).-I move- ernment can either refuse or approve That this Bill be now read a third time. 2656 Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY.J Adjournment. Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds). obtained drought relief and farmers I overlooked mentioning to the Minis on the other side received nothing. ter that, although clause 5 provides Drought does not observe municipal for the Chief Veterinary Inspector to boundaries. inform the importer or agent of the cancellation of approval for sale and Mr. Berry estimates that, if his use in Victoria of imported semen, farm had been in a declared drought there does not appear to be any area, he would have received $350 as penalty with respect to disobedience a grain subsidy. He used all his fodder of or non-compliance with the order. and had to purchase grain. He Perhaps the Minister could examine enclosed with his letter a statement this aspect at a later stage. of rainfall figures which he claims he obtained from the weather bureau. Sir WILLIAM McDONALD (Min That statement indicates that the ister of Lands).-The aspect to which autumn, 1968, rainfall for the Shire the honorable member refers is con of Meredith, expressed as a percent tained in the principal Act. age of the long-term average, was The motion was agreed to, and the 99.4, yet that shire was declared Bill was read a third time. a drought area. The autumn, 1968, rainfall for the Shire of Benalla, expressed as a percentage of the long ADJOURNMENT. term average, was 71.7. Drought DROUGHT RELIEF IN BENALLA SHIRE. relief was requested for this area Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Sec in April, 1968, but was refused, retary) .-1 move- and a grain subsidy requested in September, 1968, was also refused. That the House, at its rising, adjourn until tomorrow, at half-past Ten o'clock. That statement further indicates that the autumn, 1968, rainfall for Hamil The motion was agreed to. ton, expressed as a percentage of the Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Sec long-term average, was 89.7, and that retary) .-1 move- was the centre of the drought in the That the House do now adjourn. hard-hit Western District. If the figures are accurate, it is Mr. WILTON ~Broadmeadows).- 1 have received a letter from a Mr. strange that Meredith was declared Berry, of Wangaratta South, who is to be a drought area and that concerned about drought relief. 1 am Hamilton, with 89.7 per cent. of its aware that the drought relief scheme average rainfall, was declared to be has been terminated. Mr. Berry a drought area, but Benalla was not. points out that, because his farm is Sir HENRY BOLTE.-Is the honor within the boundaries of the Shire able member putting this case on of Benalla, which was not declared behalf of his party, or on behalf of a drought area, he received no some individual person? Does he drought relief, although farmers own believe in what he is saying? If so, ing properties adjoining his, which he should say so. were in the shires of W angara tta or Mr. WILTON.-This correspon Oxley, did benefit. 1 inquired about dence was forwarded to the Leader this position from the Rural Finance of the Opposition, and 1 am raising and Settlement Commission and was the matter. informed that several similar situa Sir HENRY BOL TE.-Do you believe tions had arisen because districts it? Do you raise the matter on your were declared to be drought areas own account? according to municipal boundaries. Mr. WILTON.-I raise it with a The ridiculous position arose that view to bringing it to the attention farmers on one side of a road of the·Government. I intended to ask Adjournment. [4 DECEMBER, 1968.] Adjournment. 2657 whether the Government would nothing about it. I should like the examine this gentleman's case with a letter tabled to become the p~operty view to providing assistance. If the of the House. Is it supported by the Premier wants to deny that the Shire honorable member and by his party? of Benalla was not-- These are two points. I think the honorable member for Benalla will Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Sec agree with me. retary) .-On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, surely the adjournment pro Mr. TREWIN.-I know all abaut it. cedure cannot be taken advantage of Sir HENRY BOLTE.-So do I. Of by a member to use insinuating, caurse, a juvenile comes in and pre offensive and political remarks. That sents this. The Government has is what the honorable member for known all about it ~or months. As for Bro'admeadows is daing. The capable Meredith, I should like it :known that member for Benalla obviously has I do not live in that subdivision, and not been consulted. If he had been, the Minister of Lands does not live the honorable member for Broad in the subdivision of Hamilton. Yet meadows would not be making this inference has been raised. political capital, as he is daing. Why did he select Meredith and Hamilton? Mr. WILTON.-It is you who puts It was for the obvious reason that the the inference on it. Premier represents Meredith-- Sir HENRY BOLTE.-The Govern Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows). ment will examine the honorable I raise a point 'Of order. member's letter if he gives it to the House. Otherwise, it will be dis Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Sec regarded and dismissed in the same retary).-I am speaking to a point 'Of way as it has been raised, on a order. political basis. Mr. WILTON.-YOU are making a speech. Apparently, I have hit hame. The DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr. L. S. Reid).-Order! The honorable mem Sir ARTHUR RYLAH.-Obviausly, ber for Broadmeadows has referred Meredith has been selected, because to a letter, and his remarks will it is represented by the Premier, and appear in Hansard. If the Premier Hamilton because it is represented by desires that the letter should be the Minister who had charge of draught relief. There is an offensive tabled, he should move a motion to insinuation about this. that effect. Mr. WILToN.-That is not far off Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Sec the mark. retary).-By leave, I move- That the honorable member for Broad Sir ARTHUR RYLAH.-If you meadows be required to table the letter believe it, it just shaws you-- referred to by him, together with the sup porting document. The DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr. L. S. Reid.-Order! The hanorable member Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows). for Broadmeadows should raise the Leave is refused. matter which requires the attention Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Sec of the Government. I find it relevant, retary).-I give notice that tomorrow but the hanarable member's time has I shall move- expired. That the honorable member for Broad Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and meadows be required to table the letter which he read to the House, together with Treasurer).-I wish to reply to supporting documents, from which he the hanarable member far Braad quoted. meadaws, wha has taken the appar tunity to raise an issue about which The motion was agreed to. he knows little-in fact, he knows The House adjourned at 7.10 p.m.