Wednesday Volume 579 30 April 2014 No. 155

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 30 April 2014

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2014 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 807 30 APRIL 2014 808

Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): Will the Minister explain House of Commons why the newly announced £40 million fund to help struggling charities will only come into force in 2015? Wednesday 30 April 2014 Many charities are saying that they will not survive another six months because of this Government’s policies. Is this not a case of too little, too late? The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock Mr Hurd: No, I do not accept that. The hon. Lady ignores the fact that the Government have already PRAYERS provided almost £200 million in transition funding for front-line charities and infrastructure organisations to [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] help them through difficult times. We have managed to secure some additional money in the 2015-16 Budget to support more transition work, particularly for middle- sized charities, which we think is needed. She is ignoring Oral Answers to Questions all the help we have given so far.

Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): Our country once enjoyed a rich and vibrant tapestry of organisations CABINET OFFICE between charity and the state, such as co-operatives, friendly societies and other mutuals. Does the Minister The Minister for the Cabinet Office was asked— share my dismay that the left has abandoned its own traditions? Big Society Mr Hurd: Those are not of course the only traditions 1. Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): What progress that the left has abandoned over the years; it is very the Government have made on implementing its big hard to see what is left. I am very proud that Government society policy. [903748] Members are leading the work to encourage more mutualisation, particularly in relation to encouraging The Minister for Civil Society (Mr Nick Hurd): We people to spin out the services they currently offer have given communities more power through the Localism inside the public sector, and to offer them and improve Act 2011. We have invested in volunteering, which has them as public sector mutuals. risen after years of decline. We have invested to support charitable giving, which has held up in difficult times. Civil Service (Outsourcing) Some 70,000 young people have taken part in the National Citizen Service. I am very proud that this country leads 2. Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): What his policy the world in supporting social enterprise and investment. is on the outsourcing of civil service jobs. [903749]

Graham Jones: That is not a situation I recognise in The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster Hyndburn, I have to say. Archbishop Vincent Nichols General (Mr Francis Maude): In common with the recently said: previous Government, which the hon. Gentleman supported “The Big Society hasn’t helped… Charity isn’t an alternative to from time to time, the current Government do not have public service… there are now families with nothing”. a dogmatic view on outsourcing, either in favour of it or Will the Minister finally admit that the big society against it. project is in fact a big failure? Paul Flynn: For the past 10 years, shared services has Mr Hurd: No, I will not. I think the cynics have got it been one of the major job successes in providing more entirely wrong. Some of the changes we have introduced than 1,000 decent jobs in my constituency, at great are irreversible, not least in terms of giving communities value to the taxpayer. Why is the Minister trying to more power and information, which they are not going wreck a winning team? to give back. We recognise that charities are going through a very difficult time, like lots of organisations, Mr Maude: We are actually seeking to build on what but this Government are actively supporting them to is good. It is now 10 years since Sir Peter Gershon, help them to adapt and improve their resilience, while under the previous Government, proposed a fast move Labour MPs continue to scaremonger. towards genuinely shared services. That did not happen for eight years. Since 2012, we have made significant Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): What plans progress in genuinely creating a handful of shared service does the Minister have for the National Citizen Service centres for Government. They are building on the shared this summer? service centre in Swansea and others. If we create genuinely successful, highly efficient organisations there, they have Mr Hurd: I thank my hon. Friend for her long-standing every opportunity of winning other business and therefore support for the National Citizen Service and all initiatives of creating new jobs and new prosperity in those areas. to encourage young people to get involved in volunteering. We are enormously ambitious for the National Citizen Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): My right Service this year. As I have said, to date over 70,000 young hon. Friend will be aware of the revelations in the people have taken part, and we expect the same number Liverpool Echo last week that Government computers to take part this year alone. were used to access and change Wikipedia pages relating 809 Oral Answers30 APRIL 2014 Oral Answers 810 to Hillsborough. What action is he taking to investigate Mr Speaker: No, there is nothing further to add. We those accusations and to prevent misuse of Government are extremely grateful. computers, whether they are outsourced or not? Michael Dugher (Barnsley East) (Lab): Earlier this Mr Maude: Everyone in the House will have been year, the Prime Minister boasted in a speech in Davos horrified and sickened by those edits on Wikipedia. I that under his Government have been in close, daily contact with the right hon. “there is a chance for Britain to become the ‘Re-Shore Nation’.” Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), who has a highly deserved reputation as a campaigner for the Hillsborough However, the chief executive of Steria has said that families, and the hon. Member for Wirral South (Alison offshoring jobs is “on the agenda” for outsourced civil McGovern), the chairman of the all-party parliamentary servants working for Shared Services Connected Ltd, in group on the Hillsborough disaster. We are undertaking which the Government retain a 25% stake. Does the a rapid investigation, which is being led by my excellent Minister share my concern that up to 1,000 jobs might permanent secretary, Richard Heaton. The first stage is be offshored? Will the Government use their stake in to establish the facts as best we can and we will then the joint venture to argue that those jobs should be kept deal with the matter. If this horrible issue is prolonged in the UK? and there is no closure, it will be very unsatisfactory and distressing for the families, particularly at this time, Mr Maude: We will take the same approach as the when the events are fresh in their minds. Government he supported—I think he was an adviser to the last Government—when they set up NHS Shared 12. [903761] Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): Business Services, which is also a joint venture with Some 239 civil service jobs that have been outsourced Steria. A number of jobs were offshored, but Britain to Shared Services Connected Ltd are being lost in has benefited because that entity has also created more my constituency. The people who may lose their jobs jobs in the UK. We take the same approach as his were presented with a new staff structure just a Government took. week ago, were given only until today to decide on I will cheerfully take up your sensible suggestion, voluntary redundancy and are not being given proper Mr Speaker, of writing to my hon. Friend the Member opportunities for redeployment. Will the Minister press for Kettering (Mr Hollobone). SSCL, which is part-owned by the Government, to extend the voluntary redundancy deadline, and will he Social Finance ensure that all Departments offer opportunities for redeployment? 3. Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab): Mr Maude: I shall certainly look at the last point that What progress his Department has made on developing the hon. Gentleman made. Nobody takes any pleasure social finance. [903750] in job losses. We have had to lose jobs in the public sector. The civil service is 17% smaller than in 2010 The Minister for Civil Society (Mr Nick Hurd): Iam because, sadly, we inherited the biggest budget deficit in proud that Britain leads the world in developing social the developed world. We have to make economies and investment. The hon. Gentleman is a tireless champion do things better. I hope that the new venture, SSCL, will of its power to support early intervention. A new tax emerge as a vibrant business in the private sector that relief has gone live this month. There are now 15 social can win more business and thereby create more jobs. impact bonds in operation. I hope that he will welcome However, it does need to restructure to begin with. our announcement today of two more funds to support social impact bonds, which we believe will generate Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): What proportion better outcomes for young people who are at risk of not of civil service jobs was outsourced at the start of this being in education, employment or training. Parliament in 2010 and what proportion will be outsourced at the end of it in 2015? Mr Allen: There is an important judgment from the European Court of Justice today on the Robin Hood Mr Maude: That is a very good question. It is difficult tax, which will have a big influence on civil society and to be precise because when business is outsourced to the the big society. However, that will be minuscule compared private sector, it is hard to know which of the jobs in a with the potential impact of a serious social impact business that provides services to Government and to bond market on early intervention, which the Minister other organisations relate to Government business. It is mentioned, and on council projects. It is two years since therefore hard to know what the baseline is. A larger Big Society Capital was established, so is it not time to number of activities will be carried out outside the review the working of the Act that set it up to see public sector, many of them through the spin-outs of whether we can take it further? public service mutuals, which are a way of delivering much greater job satisfaction— Mr Hurd: I am very proud of Big Society Capital as an institution. I have seen the impact that its investments Mr Speaker: Order. I am much obliged to the right are having on the ground. It has committed £149 million hon. Gentleman. He is plodding on to the best of his and has done important work to build this important ability, but I say to him politely that perhaps he could market. It is just two years in and is about to publish its write to his hon. Friend and place a copy of the letter in second annual report. We are always looking to ensure the Library of the House. that it succeeds. I am more than happy to pass that question on to the Big Society Trust, which is its governing Mr Maude rose— body, and get its response. 811 Oral Answers30 APRIL 2014 Oral Answers 812

Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon) (Con): Are is costing businesses £800 million a year. What is the credit unions a great example of social finance, and is Minister’s assessment of whether the move to IPv6 will it good news that there are now 500 of them in this help, and what he is doing to make that happen? country, not least a new one in Plymstock in my constituency? More than 1 million Brits are now members Mr Maude: The majority of cyber-attacks and cybercrime of a credit union. Are the Government pleased about can be prevented by basic internet hygiene, and by that? individuals and businesses ensuring that their cyber-security and internet protection is up to date and that all the Mr Hurd: Credit unions are an enormously important latest patches are installed. We estimate that something part of the landscape in communities around the country, like 80% of attacks can be prevented by that. The level and many do extraordinarily valuable work. We are of awareness is much higher than it was, but we have looking at the degree to which we can support their some way to go. capitalisation. They are fragmented and under-capitalised, and we are discussing with Big Society Capital, and Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): others, what ideas are out there for using the power Given the amount of money that the Minister said is of social investment to strengthen the capitalisation of being and will be spent, what level of co-ordination that important movement. across Departments is taking place to ensure that cybercrime is, if not eliminated, significantly reduced over the next Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): I was the Minister year? who got going the first social impact bond at Peterborough. Would the Minister like to say what the experience of Mr Maude: We are doing much more to co-ordinate that first experiment has been? than has ever been done before, and last month I launched CERT UK, which includes the cyber-security Mr Hurd: I wholly acknowledge the role that the information sharing partnership that some 400 companies right hon. Gentleman played in that groundbreaking now belong to. The sharing of information, which was social impact bond at Peterborough. Its early results are very inhibited before, is now taking place to a much extremely encouraging, and reoffending among short- greater extent. There is more we need to do, but Britain sentence prisoners who receive support through the overall is not in a bad place on that. However, we need bond has fallen by 11%, while nationally that figure has to move fast because those who wish to undertake risen by 10%. It was the first ice-breaking social impact cybercrime and cyber-attacks are moving pretty fast too. bond, and I think its impact on the wider movement and the work happening across the country, with at Civil Service (Waste) least 15 social impact bonds live, cannot be overestimated. 5. Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con): Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Does my hon. What steps he is taking to reduce waste in the civil Friend agree that we all need to do more to make service. [903753] voluntary organisations and charities aware of the benefits of the growing social investment market of Big Society The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster Capital, and of the Public Services (Social Value) Act General (Mr Francis Maude): The Efficiency and Reform 2012? Group was set up after the 2010 general election to tackle wasteful expenditure in the public sector. We Mr Hurd: I wholly agree and I am clear about what have supported Departments in achieving savings in we are trying to do. Over time—it will take some 2010-11 of £3.75 billion, a further £5.5 billion the time—we are trying to build a third pillar of funding for following year and more than £10 billion in 2012-13. In our social sector to sit alongside philanthropy and the June we will announce the figures for the year just public sector, and we lead the world in doing that. The finished. Public Services (Social Value) Act was groundbreaking legislation that requires commissioners to think very Mr Raab: I thank the Minister for that answer and seriously about how they can maximise the social and welcome the progress to date. With the stronger language environmental benefit of every pound of public money requirements for visas introduced by the Home Secretary they spend. to promote integration, what scope is there to reduce the high cost of translation across the public sector? Cybercrime Mr Maude: There are some central contracts and 4. Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): What some scope for us to do this much better, although we steps he is taking to tackle cybercrime. [903752] need to be confident about quality. Through the Crown Commercial Service we can now aggregate demand to a The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster much greater extent, but what we do not want to do is General (Mr Francis Maude): In 2011 we launched the exclude smaller translation companies from this market national cyber-security programme, which was the first as they can often provide a much more cost-effective centrally co-ordinated programme of cyber-security funding service. The issue is kept under constant review, and by the Government. Up to 2016 we are investing some there is definitely scope for further savings. £860 million in overall cyber-security funding, as a tier 1 national security priority. 9. [903758] Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): Will the Minister tell the House what progress has been Stella Creasy: The Home Affairs Committee is concerned made on commercial reform in the civil service to make that there appears to be a black hole where low-level it more savvy in its dealings with the private sector, to e-crime is committed with impunity, and we know that get a better deal for the taxpayer? 813 Oral Answers30 APRIL 2014 Oral Answers 814

Mr Maude: We are reforming the way we do that. We The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster identified a lack of commercial capability in Government General (Mr Francis Maude): The Cabinet Office is not and we are acting to remedy that, although there is still planning to transfer any civil service overseas. some way to go. The Government have been a very bad customer: we should be the best customer suppliers Philip Davies: I very much support the Minister’s have, because we have scale and good credit and we pay efforts to reduce costs and increase efficiency in the civil quickly. We need to use that scale to get the best pricing, service. Can I tempt him to go further on this particular and we were not doing that. We have saved hundreds of issue and completely rule out the transfer overseas of millions of pounds by doing much better and by dealing any jobs currently undertaken by civil servants in the with our biggest suppliers as a single customer, but UK, which I believe would be a step too far? there is much more that we still need to do. Volunteering Mr Maude: I hear what my hon. Friend says, but I reiterate what I said earlier. The approach we take is the 6. Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab): What steps he same as the last Government: we need to be efficient is taking to encourage volunteering. [903754] and jobs should be undertaken in the place where they can best be done. Normally that will be in Britain, and The Minister for Civil Society (Mr Nick Hurd): We the more efficient we are, the more jobs we will create in have created hundreds of thousands of new volunteering Britain. opportunities, not least through the National Citizen Service. We have invested in the important infrastructure Topical Questions that supports volunteering and we have reformed barriers such as Criminal Records Bureau checks. I hope that T1. [903773] Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab): the hon. Gentleman will welcome the fact that volunteering If he will make a statement on his departmental has risen after years of decline. responsibilities. Dan Jarvis: Will the Minister join me in congratulating Margaret Hayes, who recently worked her final shift The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster after 31 years of volunteering to support patients at General (Mr Francis Maude): My responsibilities are Barnsley hospital? Volunteers such as Margaret make a for the public sector efficiency and reform group, civil much valued contribution to our society, and it is service issues, industrial relations in the public sector, welcome that the number of volunteers is increasing. Government transparency, civil contingency, civil society What more can the Minister do to encourage volunteering and cyber-security. among people of all ages and backgrounds around the whole country? Andy McDonald: Contrary to responses earlier, it was recently reported that the Cabinet Office has spent Mr Hurd: I wholly support that vision. It is massively £30 million on staff redundancy packages and another important to the country. I join the hon. Gentleman in £30 million to plug the gap created by hiring agency recognising the work of that extraordinary individual staff. Given that the Cabinet Office is supposed to be and remind him that the Prime Minister has launched a responsible for efficiency savings, why has the Minister new initiative that will announce daily the Points of wasted so much money? Light awards to reward outstanding volunteers. I ask Members of Parliament on both sides of the House to Mr Maude: I think the hon. Gentleman may be a think about nominating individuals in their constituencies little confused. There is no correlation between jobs lost for that award. and jobs replaced. We need to have the skills in the civil service to do what needs to be done to serve Britain Mr Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con): One way in today so that we can win in a very competitive world. which we can encourage volunteering is to thank those That means that some jobs become redundant, but volunteers who work hard. Will the Minister join me in some new capabilities are needed. No Government or thanking the volunteers in my constituency at the play organisation I have ever come across think that they sit and resource centre PARC, Braintree Foyer, the Archer in a steady state and never recruit new people. centre, Rethink Mencap? Does he agree that it is the [Interruption.] volunteers who work for the various charities and community groups in all our constituencies who form Mr Speaker: Order. I can scarcely hear the mellifluous the backbone of our society and deserve our collective tones of the Minister. There are far too many noisy thanks? private conversations taking place in the Chamber. I am sure that both the House and the nation will wish to Mr Hurd: I wholly endorse that and join my hon. hear Mr Philip Davies. Friend in his recognition of and congratulations to his local volunteers. Few Governments have done more to actively encourage volunteering, and I reiterate my T3. [903775] Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): In 2011-12, encouragement to colleagues to step forward and nominate the TaxPayers Alliance found that trade unions individuals for the Points of Light awards. received a subsidy from taxpayers of £113 million a year through direct grants and facility time. Does the Civil Service Minister agree that any part-time or full-time union work should be paid by the unions rather than the 7. Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): Whether he plans to taxpayer? Will he update the House on the progress transfer any civil service jobs overseas. [903756] made to reduce that unnecessary cost to the taxpayer? 815 Oral Answers30 APRIL 2014 Oral Answers 816

Mr Maude: We have made considerable progress. In Minister tell me what progress is being made on the civil service alone, some £30 million of taxpayers’ increasing the availability of social impact bonds, money was being spent on subsidising union representation. which could make all the difference? That is perfectly proper if duties relate to employment, but this was going way, way beyond. We have reduced The Minister for Civil Society (Mr Nick Hurd): My significantly the number of full-time representatives. hon. Friend is entirely right: we have fantastic social There were 250 in central Government. That is now enterprises in this country and they need easier access down by nearly 170. to capital. This country leads the world in developing social investment. Today we are launching two new Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): funds that will unlock more social impact bonds to Following the launch of Labour’s digital government deliver what we expect to be better results for thousands review, which is focused on empowering people, and of young people at risk of becoming NEET. after four years of this “digital by default” Government, with 16 million UK citizens lacking basic digital skills, the Minister has finally announced a digital inclusion strategy.The digitally excluded are vulnerable to cybercrime, PRIME MINISTER but are punished by this Government for not using their digital services. Will the Minister explain why his inclusion strategy excludes 7 million of our fellow citizens from The Prime Minister was asked— the digital future? Engagements

Mr Maude: I am sorry that the hon. Lady takes that Q1. [903733] Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/ view. For one digital service that we provide—the lasting Co-op): If he will list his official engagements for power of attorney—the assisted digital for those who Wednesday 30 April. are not online is provided by a number of groups that specifically help elderly people. Where there is a digital The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): I am sure service, we are insistent that there is an assisted digital the whole House will wish to join me in paying tribute service for those who are not currently online. We want to Captain Thomas Clarke of the Army Air Corps, to do much more to increase digital inclusion, so that Flight Lieutenant Rakesh Chauhan of Joint Helicopter more people are online. Command, RAF Odiham, Acting Warrant Officer Class 2 Spencer Faulkner of the Army Air Corps, Corporal T5. [903777] Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North James Walters of the Army Air Corps, and Lance Hykeham) (Con): Will my right hon. Friend update the Corporal Oliver Thomas of the Intelligence Corps, a House on the progress that has been made in reducing reservist who also worked as a research assistant to my the running costs of the Government estate? hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams). These tragic deaths remind us of the Mr Maude: We have made very considerable reductions. continued commitment and sacrifice of our armed forces, No leases can be signed anywhere in Government, nor and I know that our deepest sympathies are with their any break point passed, without my agreement. That families at this very difficult time. has enabled us to reduce significantly the amount of I am sure that the whole House will also want to join property occupied by central Government. We also me in paying tribute to Ann Maguire, who was stabbed have a big programme that is making significant progress to death in her Leeds classroom on Monday. It is clear in co-locating all parts of the public sector in one place from the tributes paid that she was a much-loved teacher in more and more towns around the country. who had worked at the school for over 40 years. She cared so much about her pupils that she would come in T2. [903774] Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): As the on her day off to help prepare them for exams. Our Minister responsible for propriety in Government thoughts are with her family, her friends and the entire communications, was the Cabinet Secretary consulted school community in Leeds, who have been left devastated on the Prime Minister’s recent letter to 2 million by this truly shocking and appalling tragedy. A criminal people, which used language borrowed directly from investigation is under way, and everything that can be the Conservative party’s website? How much did that done to get to the bottom of what happened at the cost? school will be done. This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues Mr Maude: It is perfectly proper for Government and others. In addition to my duties in this House, I Ministers to use the same language in Government shall have further such meetings later today. communications as they use in their political communications. Ministers do not suddenly not become Mr Thomas: I very much associate myself with the politicians when they speak as Ministers. It is just Prime Minister’s tribute to the servicemen who lost possible that I may have used today some of the same their lives in Afghanistan last week, and to Ann Maguire language as I would use in a purely political environment. who lost her life in the classroom. May I ask him about something different? Last week, T6. [903778] Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and the Institute for Fiscal Studies revealed that the Abingdon) (Con): Brilliant social enterprises such as Government’s decision to treble tuition fees will cost the Oxford student hub propeller project can lead the taxpayers more than the system it replaced. Is this way in finding innovative solutions to social problems, disastrous policy a symbol of the Government’s long-term but they struggle to find sustainable funding. Can the economic plan? 817 Oral Answers30 APRIL 2014 Oral Answers 818

The Prime Minister: What the policy has enabled is Yesterday, for the first time, we learnt the names of another expansion of higher education. That is what we some of the 16 investors, including hedge funds, which are seeing under this Government. All the forecasts were given preferential access to Royal Mail shares and from the Labour party—that fewer people would apply sold one third of them. How were those lucky few to university, for example—were wrong. We were told chosen? that people from low-income backgrounds would not apply to university—those forecasts were wrong. Unlike The Prime Minister: What we are talking about is an other countries, we have put in place a system for exercise in privatising Royal Mail that has been a success tuition fees, which means that we can expand our universities for our country. A business that lost £1 billion under and go on winning in the global race. Labour has now paid money back to the taxpayer, and is making profits. The people whom we should be Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): I praising are the 140,000 employees of Royal Mail who would like to thank the Prime Minister—and, indeed, are now, under this Government, shareholders in the the whole House—for paying tribute to the five men business for which they work. who recently died in Afghanistan. In particular, I pay tribute to Lance Corporal Oliver Thomas, who worked Edward Miliband: We have had no answer to the for me in Westminster. He was an outstanding young question, Mr Speaker. The Royal Mail share price is man, who was well liked and held in such high regard by currently 50% above the level at which it was sold. Only everyone who knew him and worked with him. The loss the Prime Minister would want to be congratulated on bears particularly heavily on his parents and family losing the taxpayer £1 billion. and, indeed, on his friends who grew up with him in Each of those chosen few investors was given, on Brecon and Kington. I am sure the Prime Minister will average, 18 times more shares than other bidders, on the want to join me in praising all our reservists who, like basis that, in the words of the National Audit Office, Oliver, face all the risks that our armed forces experience— they would provide and sometimes, sadly, pay the ultimate price. “a stable long-term… shareholder base”, and would not be—in the words of the Business The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely Secretary—“spivs and speculators”. Can the Prime Minister right to pay tribute to Lance Corporal Oliver Thomas. tell us what assurances, in return for their golden ticket, It is a reminder of the sacrifices we have borne in those investors gave us that they would hold the shares Afghanistan. This looks as if it was a tragic accident for the long term? but we will get to the bottom of what happened. He is absolutely right, too, to mention how our reservists in The Prime Minister: First, the right hon. Gentleman all three forces serve alongside their regular colleagues says that people were given shares. They paid for shares. and take all of the risks. In Afghanistan, the reservists Secondly, he again raises the issue that there was some have proved again and again that they are people of sort of agreement. There was no agreement. huge quality, ability and courage. As we go forward and At the end of the day, the right hon. Gentleman expand our reserves, I hope that everyone in our country— should recognise that a business which lost money, and particularly businesses, the public sector, local councils which he tried to privatise in government but failed, is and others, including the civil service—will do everything now in the private sector, making money and succeeding they can to make sure that reservists are welcome in for our country, and its employees are now shareholders. their businesses and supported in the vital work they do Is it not interesting that, given the growth in our economy, for our country. the fall in unemployment and the reduction in the deficit, he is reduced, like old Labour, to complaining Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): I join the about a successful privatisation? Prime Minister in paying tribute to Captain Thomas Clarke of the Army Air Corps, Flight Lieutenant Rakesh Edward Miliband: No, Mr Speaker. I am raising an Chauhan of Joint Helicopter Command, RAF Odiham, issue about a rip-off of the taxpayer, which the British Acting Warrant Officer Class 2 Spencer Faulkner of the people know when they see it. The reason this matters— Army Air Corps, Corporal James Walters of the Army [Interruption.] The reason this matters—[Interruption.] Air Corps, and Lance Corporal Oliver Thomas of the Intelligence Corps, who were tragically killed. Those Mr Speaker: Order. The orchestrated barracking is deaths are a tragic and poignant reminder of the sacrifices very predictable and also incredibly tedious, but it will made by our armed forces, including reservists, in serving not stop us getting through Prime Minister’s questions; our country with bravery and distinction. All our thoughts it just means that it will take a bit longer. Members go to the friends of those whom we lost, including the should calm down, and take a tablet if necessary. hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams). We share his loss, and our deepest sympathy Edward Miliband: The reason this matters is that the goes to the families of those who were killed. sale was grossly undervalued. Shares that were sold for Let me also join the Prime Minister in paying tribute £1.7 billion on privatisation are now worth £2.7 billion, to the teacher, Ann Maguire, who was murdered in her and who cashed in? Twelve of the 16 so-called long-term classroom on Monday. That was an appalling tragedy. investors made a killing worth hundreds of millions of It is clear from the testimonies of those who have pounds within weeks. spoken out since she died that she was an inspiration to Yesterday, the representative of the bank that sold those whom she taught. All our thoughts are with her the shares said there was an “understanding” with family and friends, and with the teachers and pupils at those investors. [Interruption.] Thatiswhatitsayson the school. the record, Mr Speaker. He said that there was an 819 Oral Answers30 APRIL 2014 Oral Answers 820 understanding with those investors about their long-term “Privatisation has reduced taxpayer risk to support the universal commitment to Royal Mail. So why were they allowed postal service”. to make a fast buck? This is a good deal for taxpayers because this business was losing £1 billion and it is now making money, The Prime Minister: We are being given lectures on paying taxes and gaining in value—this is good for our taxpayer value from the people who sold our nation’s country but bad for Labour. gold at the bottom of the market. The right hon. Gentleman talks about ripping off the taxpayer, but it Edward Miliband: The Post Office was actually making was he who left an 11% budget deficit after the biggest a profit when the Government privatised it. What have banking bail-out in Britain’s history. we discovered today? It is one rule for the postal workers These are exactly the arguments that Michael Foot and another rule for the hedge funds. Who runs these made about the privatisation of the National Freight hedge funds? The Government have been very coy Corporation. They are exactly the same arguments as about who runs these hedge funds. None other than the Neil Kinnock made about British Telecom and British Chancellor’s best man runs one of them. It is one rule if Airways. It pleases the Back Benchers, it excites the you deliver the Chancellor’s best man’s speech and it is trade unions, but it is utterly meaningless. Is the right another rule if you deliver the Chancellor’s post. hon. Gentleman recommitting to renationalising the Post Office? No, of course not. He is just playing to the The Prime Minister: What this shows is that the right gallery because he cannot talk about the success of our hon. Gentleman cannot talk about the deficit, because economy. it is falling; he cannot talk about the economy, because it is growing; and he cannot talk about jobs, because there Edward Miliband: The Prime Minister should listen are 1.5 million more people in work. So he is painting to Members on his own side. What did the hon. Member himself into the red corner by talking only about issues for Northampton South (Mr Binley) say yesterday? that are actually successes for the Government but He said that this privatisation had “let people down”. which appeal to the trade unions, the left wingers behind He said: him and the people who want to play the politics of “The interests of the taxpayer were not taken into account”. envy. That is what is happening in British politics, and everyone can see it. He has nothing to say about the He has also called it “unethical and immoral”. long-term economic plan which shows Britain is on the rise and Labour is on the slide. Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con) indicated assent. Edward Miliband: What we know is there is a cost of living crisis in this country—[Interruption.] Oh, they Edward Miliband: He is nodding his head. That is do not think there is a cost of living crisis. Why not? what the Prime Minister’s own side think of it. He talks Because they stand up for the wrong people. The more a lot about the postal workers, so this is very interesting: we know about this privatisation, the bigger the fiasco it there were no conditions on the hedge funds, but there is: a national asset sold at a knock-down price; a were conditions on other groups such as the postal sweetheart deal for the City; and the Government totally workers. Can he explain why postal workers were told bungled the sale. Everything about this privatisation they could not sell their shares for three years but hedge stinks. funds were told they could cash in on day one? The Prime Minister: Six questions and not a mention The Prime Minister: The Post Office workers were of GDP; not a mention of what happened to employment given their shares, and it is right that they were given figures while we were away; and not a mention of the their shares—let us celebrate the popular capitalism. I fact that the deficit is getting better. We know that the thought the right hon. Gentleman believed in empowering right hon. Gentleman has a new adviser from America. workers. We now have 140,000 workers who have got It is Mr Axelrod, and this is what the right hon. Gentleman those shares. On the risk to the taxpayer, he ought to has been advised to say. Let me share it with the House reflect on this—[Interruption.] as it is excellent advice. It is that “there’s a better future ahead of us”— Mr Speaker: Order. There is far too much noise in the Chamber. Ms Mactaggart, you are an illustrious product but we must not— of the Cheltenham ladies’ college. I cannot believe they “go backward to the policies that put us in this mess in the first taught you there to behave like that. place.” I do not know what Labour are paying him-- The Prime Minister: You are right, Mr Speaker, that there is a lot of history in this shouting, because of Mr Speaker: Order. course in the past with all these privatisations we had the shouting of the Kinnocks, the shouting of the The Prime Minister: I have not finished—[Interruption.] Prescotts and the shouting of the Straws. Over Easter, I was looking at Labour’s candidates and I saw that son Mr Speaker: In response to that question, the Prime of Kinnock is coming here, son of Straw wants to get Minister has finished, and he can take it from me that here and son of Prescott wants to come here. It is the he has finished. same families with the same message—it is literally the same old Labour. That is what is happening. Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con): From the The right hon. Gentleman asked about taxpayer value, cyber-attack on Estonia to the invasion of Georgia and and here is what the National Audit Office said: the recent events in Crimea, we have seen a clear pattern 821 Oral Answers30 APRIL 2014 Oral Answers 822 of behaviour from the Kremlin, and the west has allowed way and, as I said, that is what Labour said about wishful thinking to take the place of critical analysis. British Airways, British Telecom and British Aerospace. Given that defence exports from the EU to Russia have Labour opposed every single move to build a strong, amounted to about ¤700 million in the past three years, competitive private industrial sector in our country and not counting the ¤1.2 billion order for French warships, that continues today. is it not about time that they were targeted for EU sanctions? Q3. [903735] Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): Mr L from Mitcham would like to be a The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend is absolutely policeman, but he only works part time and cannot right on that issue. We have set out a clear set of afford the £1,000 bobby tax he needs to pay to apply to sanctions as a result of Russia’s behaviour towards join the Met. His mum and dad are foster carers and Ukraine. We have taken a series of steps so far in terms would give it to him if they had it. May I ask the Prime of putting asset freezes and travel bans on named Minister why, if my constituent is capable of passing individuals. We have taken a series of diplomatic and the academic, fitness and testing requirements of the other steps, and we have set out the so-called stage 3 police, his bank balance should stop him? When did sanctions that should be taken if further incursions and becoming a Metropolitan police officer become an further destabilisation of south and eastern Ukraine are aspiration for the few rather than the many? set out, and restrictions on arms sales should certainly be part of that. The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady has asked questions about what she calls the bobby tax. Let me make three Q2. [903734] Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon points. First, it is not a tax; secondly, it is not a barrier Tyne North) (Lab): The Prime Minister promised that to recruitment; and, thirdly, recruitment is taking place by the end of this Parliament a third of his Cabinet in the Metropolitan police. That is what is happening: would be women. We know that the former Culture we are seeing people being recruited. As is happening, Secretary had to go, but now only three of his people who want to join the Metropolitan police can 22 Departments are run by women. Does he agree get assistance with the qualification that they now require. with the new Culture Secretary that that is because Government appointments should always be made on Q14. [903747] Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) merit? (Con): Last week, we marked the bard’s nativity, four hundred years and fifty ere the swan of Avon breathed The Prime Minister: What I said was that I wanted to his first. Stratfordians on Saturday processed through see a third of my Front-Bench Ministers being women their town, bearing rosemary in memory of their at the end of a Conservative Government. We have immortal son, and here in your apartments last night, made some important progress on the numbers of people Mr Speaker, young Stratford scholars staged a scene on the Front Bench. With respect to my coalition partner, from Shakespeare’s works—amazed a noble multitude I have to say that, in terms of Cabinet numbers, the with their art. Mr Speaker, could this right honourable Liberal Democrats need to do a bit more to pull their man, the captain of our state, lend his help to make our weight on that issue, but I hope to make further progress. national poet’s birth a national day? Could he too disclose before the House what Shakespeare means to Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con): him? Reverting to the subject of Royal Mail, as the leader of the stockbroking team that brought British Gas to the The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for that market and as the author of the phrase “Ask Sid”, may beautifully and brilliantly crafted question about the I tell the Prime Minister that the Opposition’s questions anniversary of Shakespeare’s birth. It is a moment of about, and their criticisms of, the way in which the celebration not just here in Britain but across the world, Royal Mail launch was handled show their total ignorance where Shakespeare’s works are gaining a wider of City markets? The fact is that when one tries to make understanding and distribution. I will not attempt quotes an immense sale, one has to take infinite trouble to find such as those that my hon. Friend brought out in his people to underwrite it, and they are not able to prophesy question, but I would say to any politician that if they what stock markets will be like a week ahead. Therefore, read Henry V’s speech before Agincourt and it does the prudent way in which this sale was handled was very not inspire them and drive them on, I cannot think sensible—[Interruption.] Do stop waving. You are waving what will. goodbye. Q4. [903736] Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): Mr Speaker: Order. People should not gesticulate at When will the Prime Minister publish the regulations the right hon. Gentleman. I know that he is nearing his to introduce standard packaging for tobacco products completion. and ban smoking in cars when children are present?

Sir Peter Tapsell: If an issue fails, those institutions The Prime Minister: I cannot pre-judge the Queen’s responsible for its launch are ruined. Speech, but we have said that we want to take action on this front and we will. The Prime Minister: The Father of the House makes an important point: when state-owned industries are Q13. [903746] Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): privatised, if they are sold for less than the price set out, Textile, engineering, food and drink manufacturing that is written off as a failure, and if they are sold for is booming in Huddersfield and Colne Valley. For anything more than the price, you are accused of example, Camira Fabrics from Meltham is producing undervaluing the business. That has always been the the upholstery for Boris’s Routemaster buses, which 823 Oral Answers30 APRIL 2014 Oral Answers 824 have been very busy this week. The company is creating market. The question is, whose side is the Prime jobs and apprenticeships. Will the Prime Minister Minister on—that of his new Culture Secretary, who praise Camira Fabrics and the other local firms that praised ticket touts as “classic entrepreneurs”, or the have agreed to attend my first ever jobs fair in millions of ordinary fans who are sick and tired of Holmfirth on Friday 20 June? being ripped off?

The Prime Minister: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend The Prime Minister: I have not seen the report that for holding these job fairs. A number of Members of the hon. Lady mentions. I will have a look at it and I Parliament have taken that approach and have seen real will discuss it with the Culture Secretary, my hon. benefits in their local areas as businesses come forward Friend the Member for Bromsgrove (Sajid Javid), who I to pledge apprenticeships and to take people on, and welcome to the Cabinet. I noticed that Labour seemed are brought together with people who are looking for to criticise his appointment—I am not quite sure on work. Since the recess, we have seen a series of figures what basis. I think he will do an excellent job for our on our economy: growth is now running at over 3%, country and I am very happy to study the report that 1.5 million of our fellow countrymen and women are in the hon. Lady mentions. work since this Government came to power, inflation is at a five-year low and business confidence is at its Q12. [903744] Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) highest level since the early 1970s. There is still a lot of (Con): The number of unemployed jobseekers in work to do and there is absolutely no complacency. The Bristol North West has fallen by 25% in the past year, long-term economic plan is not complete, but it is well but there is obviously still much more to do. I am also on its way. hosting a jobs fair this Friday, to try to make that number even lower. In the light of the Chancellor’s Q5. [903737] Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and welcome commitment to full employment, what else Leith) (Lab/Co-op): Before he was elected, the Prime are the Government doing to make that ambitious Minister said that “if they’d let me” he would put a aspiration a reality? wind turbine on No. 10 Downing street, making use of the cheapest and most developed form of renewable The Prime Minister: Already 1.7 million new private energy. Last week, he announced that his party wants sector jobs have been created, far outstripping the loss to end support for onshore wind even though the of public sector jobs, so there are 1.5 million more Government’s own survey this week showed that 70% people in work altogether. We have seen an increase in of the public now support it. What changed his mind? full-time work, which is very welcome because people often want to work more hours than they are currently The Prime Minister: What is changed is that we have able to work. In terms of driving further employment seen a massive increase in onshore wind generation in growth, the clear message to businesses is that they have our country. We will achieve, through what is in the the £2,000 off their national insurance bill, which can planning system and under construction, the provision help people to take on new employees; there is the cut to of approaching 10% of our electricity demand through business rates for many shops in our high streets, which onshore wind. The question is then whether it is right to is also very welcome; and from next year, businesses will continue to overrule local planners and local people not have to pay any national insurance contributions at and whether it continues to be right to put taxpayers’ all in respect of anyone under the age of 21. We want to money in after we have built out that onshore wind see more people in work, and to raise even further that provision. I do not believe that it is, and the Conservative level of aspiration in our country. manifesto will make that very clear for local communities. Other parties will have to make their own choices. Q7. [903739] Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op): Nuclear power is a very important component of the Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): In the past few UK’s energy mix, because it produces large amounts of weeks in Eastbourne, over £160 million of private electricity with very little CO2. This Government call investment has been announced; we have had 3,000 new themselves “the greenest government ever” but have apprentices since the general election and unemployment ceded control of our nuclear energy policy to foreign is almost 20% down on this time last year. In short, in companies. What will the right hon. Gentleman’s Eastbourne we are coming through tremendously Government do to ensure that nuclear power stations successfully from the difficult economic downturn. Does such as Hinkley Point C, which is already five years the Prime Minister agree that where Eastbourne goes, behind schedule, are brought on line on time? the UK follows? The Prime Minister: I am sure the hon. Gentleman The Prime Minister: I am glad to hear that Eastbourne has a constituency interest in this, because the north-west is leading the way, particularly on apprentices; 1.6 million has very important energy assets for our country. The apprentices have started under this Government. Our last Labour Government were in power for 13 years; target is 2 million. We want to see a particular expansion they never built a nuclear power station, nor made any of the higher-level apprenticeship schemes, but it is a progress on moving towards doing so. Under this major part of delivering our long-term economic plan. Government, we have got Hinkley Point going ahead. We have got the exciting developments at Wylfa in Q6. [903738] Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Anglesey. I believe there is the opportunity of more to Sunderland West) (Lab): I am sure that the Prime come. That is what we are doing: putting our money Minister has read last week’s excellent report by the where our mouth is and ensuring that we have nuclear all-party group on ticket abuse, which set out how power providing a high-quality base load power which consumers are getting a raw deal from the secondary is carbon-free. 825 Oral Answers30 APRIL 2014 Oral Answers 826

Q8. [903740] Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): As a country that has met the target of 0.7% of GDP The Peterborough effect is back. Business confidence is going in aid, we are able to push this item right up the returning, unemployment is falling and more new jobs agenda, which we will do during the course of the year. are coming to my constituency. Much of that new prosperity relies on infrastructure spending financed by Q10. [903742] Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): private pension funds. Does my right hon. Friend share Yesterday, Ukrainians in Scotland wrote to Alex my regret that Labour’s raid on company retirement Salmond expressing disgust and astonishment at the funds, the brainchild of the shadow Chancellor, First Minister’s statement that he admired President estimated last week by the Office for Budget Putin. Will the Prime Minister support the Scottish Responsibility to have amounted to £118 billion, not Ukrainian community and Labour in condemning only wrecked private pensions but hobbled vital private those statements in support of a regime that oppresses sector infrastructure investment in our country for a its own minority groups and silences its critics? generation? The Prime Minister: I am delighted to hear about the The Prime Minister: I agree wholeheartedly with the Peterborough effect—employment rising, unemployment hon. Lady. I think that what Alex Salmond said was a falling, more people taking on apprenticeships, and major error of judgment and that all of us in this House businesses expanding. That is what we see across our should be supporting the Ukrainian desire to be a country and it is fascinating that, 29 minutes into Prime sovereign, independent country and to have the respect Minister’s questions, not a single Labour Member of of the international community and party leaders for Parliament has mentioned GDP or unemployment, growth that ambition. in our country or our economic plan. They do not want to talk about our economy because they can see it is Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): This morning, getting better under this Government. I met Joe’s Jumpstart, a charity campaigning for defibrillators in schools. It is excellent news that the Q9. [903741] Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) Government are making progress on that. Will my right (Lab): Will the Prime Minister make representations in hon. Friend congratulate North Lincolnshire council, relation to the cases of Princesses Sahar and Jawaher, which has worked with my hon. Friend the Member for who have been held under house arrest in Saudi Arabia Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) and me and is this year for more than 10 years and have been refused access to committing £75,000 to a programme of up to 50 community food for more than 40 days as a result of speaking to public access defibrillators, which will save lives? the western media? Does he agree with me that human rights and women’s rights should be our priorities in The Prime Minister: That sounds like an excellent our relationship with Saudi Arabia? campaign. We have, as a country, taken a lot of steps forward in making sure that that sort of equipment is The Prime Minister: I read the report, as the hon. more readily available, because if people who have Lady did; I share her concern about the case and I will suffered a heart attack are found quickly, in the golden certainly look into it further. In our relations with all minutes or golden hour after it strikes, their lives can be countries, we give proper priority to human rights and saved. It sounds like an excellent idea and I join my hon. the rule of law, and we raise those issues with all Friend in paying tribute to North Lincolnshire council. countries we meet with. Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): Could I gently tell the Q11. [903743] Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): Prime Minister that Liberal Democrat women not only Over the past 12 months, the use of food banks in pull their weight, but are perfectly ready and willing to Knowsley has increased by 93%, and social landlords punch above their weight? report that rent arrears have gone up by 8.4%. Does the Prime Minister accept that the Government’s own I recently hosted the premiere of “The Honour Diaries”, policies are driving up debt and poverty in places like a hard-hitting film about the honour culture and what Knowsley? can be done to girls and women in its name. I know that issues of female genital mutilation and early and forced marriage are hugely important to my right hon. Friend, The Prime Minister: What I would say to the right so will he please consider viewing the film and showing hon. Gentleman is that the best route out of poverty is it at the girls summit on those issues, which he is hosting work, and we should welcome the fact that there are in July? 1.5 million more people in work. Looking at the figures, of course, yes, he is right that food bank usage has gone The Prime Minister: First, I thank the hon. Lady for up, not least because food banks are now properly the work she does, particularly on women in enterprise advertised and promoted, not only by Jobcentre Plus with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, but by local authorities. which is vital. The point I was making is merely that I If the right hon. Gentleman wants to deal in facts, know that all parties in this House want greater gender the OECD has shown that the proportion of people equality in terms of representation, presence in Government struggling to buy food in the UK has actually fallen and the rest of it, and all parties have made progress. since before Labour’s great recession. I know that My party has made progress, but there is more that we Opposition Members want to make this argument about want to do. poverty and inequality in Britain, but the statistics do On the specific concerns about FGM and preventing not back them up. Inequality has fallen compared with sexual violence in conflict, we are taking huge steps this when Labour was in office; there are fewer people in year in raising the profile of those issues, and I pay relative poverty, and fewer children in relative poverty. tribute to the leadership shown by the Foreign Secretary. The picture Labour Members want to paint—because 827 Oral Answers30 APRIL 2014 Oral Answers 828 they cannot paint one of an economy that is not growing, either dimming or cutting their streetlights at night? or one of people who are not getting jobs—is wholly Does he think that women are feeling safe in their local false. communities at night under his Government?

Mr Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con): With the The Prime Minister: I have, like all hon. Members service, manufacturing and construction sectors all growing who take part in election campaigns, been lobbied on at 3% plus, does the Prime Minister agree that the this issue on both sides of the argument. It is an issue economy is well on the road to recovery and rebalancing for local determination. I want to see good street lighting, as well? but we should also listen to the arguments from the police and others about the effect that this has. The Prime Minister: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s question. Recent figures showed that manufacturing was one of the faster-growing sectors of our economy, Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): I congratulate my which I welcome, but what the Chancellor said so right hon. Friend and the Chancellor on the long-term powerfully in his Budget is that we are not resting on economic prosperity that has come forward. In areas our laurels or saying that the job is done. There is more such as St Albans, barely one house is worth under work to address the fundamental long-term weaknesses £250,000. Can I make a plea through the Prime Minister of the British economy: we need to manufacture more; that we consider stamp duty thresholds around that we need to export more; we need to save more; and we limit to help young people to get on the housing ladder? need to invest more. Unlike the Labour party, we have policies that promote all those things. The Prime Minister: We are very happy to look at the issues that she raises, but the weapon that we have used Mr Speaker: I will allow some injury time, because to try to help young people who do not have rich there has been so much noise. parents but who can afford mortgage payments is Help Not on this occasion from her seat, but on her feet, to Buy, because it helps them to get together a deposit I call Fiona Mactaggart to speak. of 5%, rather than a 15% or 20% deposit. Labour Members are shouting about this; they should be welcoming Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): Thank you very this scheme, which is expanding aspiration and growth much, Mr Speaker. Has the Prime Minister seen the in our country. That is what they should be promoting survey showing that two thirds of local councils are and that is the approach that we will take. 829 30 APRIL 2014 Speaker’s Statement 830

Speaker’s Statement I have spent much of my career seeking to make the House and its work, and the work of its Members, better understood by those whom it serves: the citizens of the United Kingdom. For I 12.37 pm believe that with understanding comes valuing, and with valuing Mr Speaker: I have to inform the House that I have comes ownership. And our citizens should feel pride in the received the following letter from the Clerk of the ownership of their Parliament. House: The House of Commons, across the centuries, has never expected to be popular, and indeed it should not court popularity. But the “Dear Mr Speaker, work it does in calling governments to account, and its role as a I write to inform you that I have indicated to Her Majesty The crucible of ideas and challenge, deserves to be better known, Queen that I wish to surrender my Patent as Clerk of the House at better understood, and so properly valued. So too does the work the end of August this year. I shall then have served the House for of individual Members: not only working for the interests of their 42 years, over eleven Parliaments, and for the last decade at the constituencies and constituents, but often as the last resort of the Table. homeless and hopeless, the people whom society has let down. As Clerk of the House I have been fortunate indeed to have the This is a worthy calling, and should be properly acknowledged best job in the service of any Parliament—indeed one of the best and appreciated. jobs in the world. This House is the precious centre of our Parliamentary democracy; I have been lucky enough to have been involved in most of the and with all my heart I wish it well. innovations in the procedure and business of the House over the Yours sincerely, last ten years. Whatever the vicissitudes of Parliamentary life, and whatever brickbats may be thrown at it, I can truly say that the Robert Rogers” House now is a more effective scrutineer of the executive, and [Applause.] more topical, relevant and independent-minded, than I have ever known it. That spontaneous reaction— As Chief Executive of the House Service of some 2,000 staff I have had the great privilege of leading a remarkable group of Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Is unparliamentary. talented people, deeply committed to the House and, whatever their role here, all rightly proud of being stewards of the central institution in our democracy. Mr Speaker: It may be unparliamentary, but it bears That commitment and pride has been a feature of working life eloquent testimony to the esteem in which Robert is here for as long as I can remember; but in recent years it has been held. coupled with increasing levels of professionalism and teamwork In myself acknowledging the wisdom and dedication and an ever clearer focus on delivering the services required by the House and its Members, as well as reaching out, through education that the Clerk and Chief Executive of the House has and information, to the world beyond Westminster. demonstrated, I know that colleagues will wish me to I am so grateful to have had, throughout my service, and assure them that there will be an opportunity to pay the especially over the last three years, the support and friendship of traditional tribute to the Clerk at a later date. I should Members on all sides of the House, and especially of the occupants also mention, for the convenience of the House, that I of the Chair, as well as the happy camaraderie, support and shall naturally put in place a competition for the counsel of my colleagues at all levels. appointment of the Clerk’s successor. 831 30 APRIL 2014 Stop-and-Search 832

Stop-and-Search HMIC’s study on the use of stop-and-search revealed that more than half the police forces in the country are 12.42 pm ignoring the requirement set out in Police and Criminal Evidence Act code of practice A to make arrangements The Secretary of State for the Home Department for public scrutiny of stop-and-search records. This is (Mrs Theresa May): With permission, Mr Speaker, I an important duty that should empower local communities would like to make a statement on the use of stop-and- to hold police forces to account, so I have written to all search powers by the police. As I have told the House chief constables and police and crime commissioners to before, I have long been concerned about the use of tell them to adhere to the code. I have told them that if stop-and-search. Although it is undoubtedly an important they do not do so, the Government will bring forward police power, when misused it can be counter-productive. legislation to make this a statutory requirement. First, it can be an enormous waste of police time. Secondly, when innocent people are stopped and searched Earlier today, I commissioned Alex Marshall, chief for no good reason, it is hugely damaging to the relationship executive of the College of Policing, to review the between the police and the public. In those circumstances national training of stop-and-search with a view to it is an unacceptable affront to justice. developing robust professional standards for officers on That is why I commissioned Her Majesty’s inspectorate probation, existing officers, supervisors, and police leaders. of constabulary to inspect every force in England and I have asked the college to include in this work unconscious Wales to see how stop-and-search powers are used, and bias awareness training to reduce the possibility of it is why last year I launched a consultation to ensure prejudice informing officers’ decisions. As part of that that members of the public, particularly young people review, I have also asked the college to introduce an and people from minority ethnic communities, could assessment of officers’ fitness to use stop-and-search have their say. powers. I want this to send the clearest possible message: if officers do not pass this assessment, if they do not Today I am publishing a summary of the responses to understand the law, or if they do not show they know the consultation and placing a copy in the House Library. how to use stop-and-search powers appropriately, they The consultation generated more than 5,000 responses, will not be allowed to use them. In order to save as and it was striking that those on the receiving end of much time as possible, I have asked my officials in the stop-and-search had very different attitudes from those Home Office to work with chief constables and police who are not. While 76% of people aged between 55 and and crime commissioners to explore the possibility of 74 thought that stop-and-search powers are effective, recording information on the use of stop-and-search only 38% of people aged between 18 and 24 agreed. via the new emergency services network. While 66% of white people thought that stop-and-search powers are effective, only 38% of black people agreed. In addition to all these changes, I can tell the House The findings of the HMIC inspection were deeply that this summer the Home Office and the College of concerning. The inspectorate reported that 27% of the Policing will launch a new “best use of stop-and-search” stop-and-search records it examined did not contain scheme. This scheme already has the backing of the reasonable grounds to search people, even though many Metropolitan police—the biggest user of stop-and-search of these records had been endorsed by supervising in the country—and today I have written to all other officers. If the HMIC sample is accurate, more than a police forces in England and Wales inviting them to sign quarter of the 1 million or so stops carried out under up. Forces participating in the scheme will record the the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 last year outcome of stops in more detail to show the link, or the could have been illegal. This is not the only worrying lack of a link, between the object of the search and its statistic. Official figures show that if someone is black outcome. This will allow us to assess how well forces are or from a minority ethnic background, they are up to interpreting the six times more likely to be stopped and searched by the “reasonable grounds for suspicion” police than if they are white, and only about 10% of they are supposed to have in order to use their stop-and- stops result in an arrest. search powers in accordance with law. The scheme will In London, thanks to the leadership of Sir Bernard also require forces to record a broader range of outcomes, Hogan-Howe, changes to stop-and-search show that it such as penalty notices for disorder and cautions. This is possible to reduce the number of stops, improve the will allow us better to understand how successful each stop-to-arrest ratio, and still cut crime. Since February stop and search really is. 2012, the Metropolitan police have reduced their overall In order to improve the public’s understanding of the use of stop-and-search by 20%, and they have reduced police, forces participating in the scheme will introduce no-suspicion stop-and-search by 90%. In the same period, lay observation policies, which enable members of the stabbings have fallen by a third and shootings by 40%. local community to apply to accompany police officers Complaints against the police have gone down and the on patrol. The scheme will also require forces to introduce arrest ratio has improved. a stop-and-search complaints “community trigger”whereby I want to see further progress in London and across the police must explain to the public how stop-and-search the whole of England and Wales. I can therefore tell the powers are being used where there is a large volume of House that I intend to revise Police and Criminal Evidence complaints. Act code of practice A to make it clear what constitutes Forces participating in the scheme will make it clear “reasonable grounds for suspicion”— that they will respect the case law established in Roberts the legal basis on which police officers carry out the by using no-suspicion stop-and-search when it is “necessary vast majority of stops. The revised code will emphasise to prevent incidents involving serious violence”, rather that where officers are not using their powers properly, than just “expedient” to do so. They will raise the level they will be subject to formal performance or disciplinary of authorisation to a chief officer and that officer must proceedings. reasonably believe that violence “will” take place, rather 833 Stop-and-Search30 APRIL 2014 Stop-and-Search 834

[Mrs Theresa May] all. Last year there were a million stop-and-searches; of those, only 10% led to an arrest. That means hundreds of than “may”, as things stand now. This will bring thousands of stops and searches led only to resentment. no-suspicion stop-and-search more into line with the The Home Secretary and I agree that resentment stop-and-search powers under section 47A of the Terrorism creates barriers between communities and the police, Act 2000, and I hope it will reduce the number of particularly in ethnic minority communities that are no-suspicion stops significantly. The scheme will also most affected. That is bad for the innocent people who require forces to limit the application of no-suspicion are regularly and unfairly stopped, bad for the police stop-and-search to 15 hours. It will also require them to because it is an expensive waste of time, and bad for communicate with local communities in advance and community safety because it undermines the very afterwards, so residents can be kept informed of the relationships we rely on for policing by consent. purpose and success of the operation. The Home Secretary has powerfully described the In addition to these changes, in order to improve problem, but four years on her proposals are very transparency and accountability, we will add stop-and- limited. They are welcome but they do not match the search data to the Government’s hugely successful and scale of the problem that she herself has described. A popular crime maps at www.police.uk. I have also asked new assessment for police officers using stop-and-search Her Majesty’s chief inspector of constabulary to include is sensible and welcome. Revising the code of practice is the use of stop-and-search in HMIC’s new annual fine, but it is not clear why she could not have done that general inspections, which begin towards the end of this straight after the EHRC report four years ago. year. I have commissioned HMIC to review all other Commissioning the College of Policing to review training police powers similar to stop and search, including is sensible, but she could have done that last July. A new section 163 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, with a view to “best use of stop-and-search” scheme that sounds very eliminating any unfair or inappropriate use of those sensible will be only voluntary. powers. What about the things that we called for? Why is the The proposals I have outlined today amount to a Home Secretary not banning the use of targets given to comprehensive package of reform. I believe they should police officers to stop and search a certain number of contribute to a significant reduction in the overall use people? Why will she not put the guidance on race of stop and search, better and more intelligence-led discrimination on a statutory basis? Why will she not stop-and-search, and improved stop-to-arrest ratios. But insist that all forces abide by case law, rather than some? I want to make myself absolutely clear: if the numbers That is what she called for five months ago. She wrote to do not come down, if stop-and-search does not become the Prime Minister in December saying that she wanted more targeted, if those stop-to-arrest ratios do not to change the law on section 60 stop-and-search improve considerably, the Government will return with primary legislation to make those things happen, because “so that the test for the power’s use is ‘necessary’ and ‘expedient’”. nobody wins when stop-and-search is misapplied. It is a We agreed, but instead all she is introducing is a voluntary waste of police time. It is unfair, especially to young, scheme. She said then that she would raise the authorisation black men. It is bad for public confidence in the police. to a senior officer and strengthen the test for using the That is why these are the right reforms and why I powers. We agreed. Instead, she has a voluntary scheme commend this statement to the House. that forces do not even have to sign up to. Her plans have been frisked of serious substance and we need to 12.52 pm know why the Home Secretary has backed down. Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) The right hon. Lady’s advisers have blamed regressive (Lab): I thank the Home Secretary for early sight of the attitudes in No. 10, but why has she listened to them? statement. She was right and they were wrong. These proposals are It is four years since the Equality and Human Rights too weak and the Home Secretary has given in. Why is Commission report described serious problems with the Prime Minister ignoring the voice of ethnic minority the way stop-and-search was being used, describing communities? Why is the Prime Minister ignoring the disproportionate and inefficient use of stop-and-search impact on good policing, and why is he blocking sensible and raising concerns about racial discrimination, because reform? Why is the Prime Minister not listening to his we know that, as the Home Secretary herself said, Home Secretary? young people from ethnic minorities are six times more likely to be stopped. Since then there has been strong Mrs May: That was a disappointing response from support across the House for reform, and it is welcome the shadow Home Secretary, but it was characteristic of that the Home Secretary has finally come forward with her. The right hon. Lady complains that we are not proposals, but these proposals are extremely limited. going far enough and seems to imply that Labour They do not match up to her previous promises and would like to go further on stop-and-search, but perhaps they do not go far enough. I could remind her of some of the facts. We all agree that the police need to have powers When Labour was in power, overall stop-and-search to stop and search individuals suspected of crime or to powers were not curbed; they were extended. Perhaps prevent a serious threat. Officers have to deal with she has forgotten the stop-and-search powers introduced serious problems such as teenagers in gangs carrying by the Terrorism Act 2000—powers extended by her knives and organised criminals carrying guns or stolen Government and limited by this Government. When goods or dealing deadly drugs, and intelligence-led Labour was in power, section 60 powers were not curbed; targeting of suspected criminals helps to cut knife crime they were extended. Has she forgotten the decision to and youth murders. The right hon. Lady and I agree that extend the reasons for the police to be able to use too many searches, however, have not been targeted at section 60, the extension of the time limits for section 60, 835 Stop-and-Search30 APRIL 2014 Stop-and-Search 836 or the decision to reduce the rank of the authorising in action, but what we are doing will bring in action this officer from superintendent to inspector for authorising summer, whereas legislation, as she well knows, would section 60—powers extended by her Government and take a considerable amount of time. now limited by this Government? The right hon. Lady talked about some of this just When Labour was in power the PACE codes of being voluntary. The Metropolitan police has signed up practice were not strengthened; they were weakened. to it. I say to her that if she wants to see these changes Has the right hon. Lady forgotten the date when breaching and the “best use of stop-and-search” scheme extended, the PACE codes ceased to be a disciplinary offence? she should be encouraging the Labour police and crime That date was April 1999, when her party was in power. commissioners in metropolitan areas to adopt these Checks and balances were weakened by her Government exact proposals, and I hope she will do just that. and strengthened by this Government. When Labour I am afraid the right hon. Lady has just shown a was in power, no-suspicion stop-and-search did not go complete lack of credibility on this issue as she carries down; it went up. Section 60 stops went from fewer than on complaining and playing party politics. Whenever I 8,000 in 1997-98 to 150,000 in 2008-09, but down to have raised this subject in the past, she has said nothing 5,000 last year. [Interruption.] Stops under the Terrorism about it. She only got interested in it when it appeared Act went from 32,000 in 2002-03 to 210,000 in 2008-09, in the newspapers and she thought she could play party but down to zero last year. No-suspicion stop-and-search politics with it. She can play party politics, but I am was up under her Government but down under this interested in the national interest. I am clear that stop- Government. and-search should be used less. It should be targeted and it needs to be used fairly. If that does not happen, When Labour was in power the overall use of stop- we will bring back primary legislation. The difference and-search did not fall; it went up from just over between her party’s record and that of mine and this 1 million in 1997-98 to more than 1.5 million in 2008-09 coalition Government is clear: we are serious about and down to 1 million last year, so overall stop-and-search stop-and-search reform and she is not. under the right hon. Lady’s Government went up and it has gone down under this Government. The right hon. Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): May I Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), a former policing welcome these important reforms? I am well aware that Minister, was commenting from a sedentary position many people in ethnic communities in my constituency earlier. Speaking in 2008, he boasted: “We have increased have said that they would like to work more closely with stop and search powers”. local police, but that they have felt alienated by the In 2007, when the Home Affairs Committee recommended: current stop-and-search policies and powers. I think these important reforms will make a real difference to “Alternatives to stop and search that might help the police that relationship. engage better with young people should be considered”, Labour’s Home Office replied, “We disagree.” Let us Mrs May: My hon. Friend makes a very important not rewrite Labour’s history when it comes to stop-and- point. That is precisely one of the problems. When search. stop-and-search is misused, it leads to a lack of confidence This is a serious subject. It is about the relationship between the police and the public. If the police are between the public and the police, and it is about police willing to work with local communities to target the use time. The right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract of stop-and-search much more clearly and to inform and Castleford mentioned a few issues to which I will them about why they are using it and what is happening turn. She mentioned the EHRC report from four years as a result of having used it, we will see precisely the ago and seemed to imply that there had been no confidence my hon. Friend talks about. Government action since then. In fact, I have been working with HMIC, the Association of Chief Police Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I welcome the Home Officers, chief constables and, in particular, the Metropolitan Secretary’s statement and endorse her plan of action, police since I became Home Secretary. I refer to my which is in keeping with a number of the recommendations earlier point that the powers were extended under the of the Home Affairs Committee. She is right to single right hon. Lady’s Government and have been reduced out the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, who and limited under ours. has made a huge difference to the way in which this has been accepted and adopted. The right hon. Lady asked about the issue of officers Two things, however, trouble me. First, did the police having targets to stop and search people. I am clear that give a reason in the responses to the consultation as to that is entirely unacceptable, and in my letter to chief why this disproportionality existed in the stopping and constables I have told them that any such targets should searching of black and Asian individuals? We have be abolished. known about it the whole time we have been in The right hon. Lady asked about section 60 and why Parliament—the Home Secretary is not saying anything I was not introducing legislation now. She commented new—but did the police advance a reason as to why it on the need to change the law so that stops can be used was happening? Secondly, I endorse what the Home only when they are necessary to prevent incidents involving Secretary said about getting a voluntary arrangement, serious violence, rather than expedient. She obviously but if it does not work, what is the timetable for did not hear what I said in my statement and she legislation? obviously does not appear to know that the case law established in Roberts effectively does precisely that. Mrs May: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his There is no longer any need to legislate in that respect. tone and the approach he has taken to this matter. Once The right hon. Lady commented on legislation to bring again, he has taken a very responsible approach, in 837 Stop-and-Search30 APRIL 2014 Stop-and-Search 838

[Mrs May] somebody who is innocent and there are no reasonable grounds for suspicion or purpose behind it, it engenders contrast to that taken by those on his party’s Front exactly that distrust and lack of confidence. That is why Bench. The consultation responses have been placed in targeting it more carefully, and changing and making the Library. I think I am right in saying that it did not absolutely clear what reasonable grounds for suspicion specifically ask the police that particular question, so it are, will help to address the issue. does not appear in the responses. The right hon. Gentleman will be aware of some of the issues that the police have Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): Is not the raised previously, including in relation to when the crux of the matter that a law-abiding white person is EHRC cases were raised. unlikely to feel that he will be subject to stop-and-search, I am not able to give the right hon. Gentleman a but that that is not likely to be the position of a timetable at the moment. He will appreciate that as we law-abiding black person? May I also tell the Home approach the last Session of this Parliament, it is harder Secretary that in my first Parliament, which was a long to give timetables on such matters, but I am clear that if time ago, Labour passed legislation to ban for the first the voluntary code does not work we will introduce time any form of racial discrimination? I was very primary legislation. proud to support that law.

Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and Abingdon) (Con): Mrs May: The hon. Gentleman has more experience I thank the Home Secretary for her statement and in this House than me in terms of the number of years welcome in particular her commitment to a wider legislative served. The first issue he raised is absolutely one of the review. Police powers in the Road Traffic Act 1988 are problems. I attended a public meeting held by the hon. also disproportionately used to target young black men Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington in cars. Does the Secretary of State agree that reforming (Ms Abbott) in the House of Commons, when she stop-and-search culture and restoring the faith of black brought people from black and ethnic minority communities and minority ethnic groups in the system will be a to the House to talk about their experience, and they process and not a single legislative event? very forcefully made clear to me what that experience was. I more recently met a group of young students from a school in Wandsworth who were very clear Mrs May: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for welcoming about the impact stop-and-search has on their attitude the wider work I have commissioned from HMIC. She towards the police. Their assumption is that it will is absolutely right. I have announced a package of happen to them, whereas, as the hon. Member for proposals today. Obviously, we have to see those being Walsall North (Mr Winnick) says, the figures show that taken up by forces. This is about a process, and it is the assumption of a young white male is that it will not about changing attitudes in the way my hon. Friend has happen to him. described as so necessary. Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con): I warmly Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): The Secretary welcome the package announced by my right hon. of State will be aware that after the riots, the victims Friend. It is wide-ranging, long-needed and, as has been panel set up by the Government targeted section 60 said, in line with what the Home Affairs Committee has blanket notices as the root cause of stop-and-search. I been saying for a long time. Does she share my hope was also grateful to be able to serve on the review set up that it will take some of the controversy out of stop-and- by the HMIC. I say to the Secretary of State that this search, and that in future there will be a consensus will require legislation. I welcome the progress she has whereby stop-and-search is used effectively in the interests made, but section 60 came in through legislation and we of protecting the public and that it will recognised in all need to change it through legislation. quarters as such?

Mrs May: I thank the right hon. Gentleman not only Mrs May: I absolutely agree. We need to restore the for the explicit work he has mentioned, but for raising public’s confidence in stop-and-search, but all the evidence the issue over the years during his time in this House. —as we are already seeing from the steps taken by the The Roberts case has established case law in relation to Metropolitan police and one or two other forces—is that the interpretation of section 60, and that makes it clear when the power is targeted and used effectively and that there must be necessity rather than just expediency. well, not only is it more effective in its purpose of protecting the public, but the public have greater confidence in it. Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): I congratulate the Home Secretary on her statement and her work to Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): For many people, control these important but overused and discriminatory the critical issue is that if I am stopped by a police powers. More than 500,000 stops are drugs-related, but officer, I am treated as a nice middle-class, middle-aged 93% of those stopped did not have anything illegal on lady and our relationship is very positive, but young them. Does the Home Secretary agree with the Runnymede people very often do not have that experience. What will Trust and StopWatch that heavy-handed policing of the the Home Secretary do to make sure that police officers possession of small amounts of drugs for personal use share the experience of the communities they police so is damaging community relations? that there is not the tension that very often exists between police officers and young men, particularly Mrs May: My hon. Friend and I have had discussions young black men on the street? on these matters in the past and we take a slightly different approach to drugs and dealing with them. The Mrs May: We intend to introduce policies at a local Government have a very clear drugs strategy. Where level that will enable members of the public to apply to he is right is that when there is a stop-and-search of go on patrol with the police, and to talk to the police 839 Stop-and-Search30 APRIL 2014 Stop-and-Search 840 about what they are doing and their experience. Crucially, man, have experienced over the years. What was distressing training not just of new police officers coming through, was his assumption that, “It will happen to me because but of existing officers is of course key to this, which is I am black”. That is appalling and must not be the case, why what I am asking the College of Policing to do is so which is why the reforms are so important. important. As I have said, it should be clear that if police officers do not know how to use the power Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) properly, they should not use it. (Lab): The Home Secretary will be aware that concern about stop-and-search in urban communities goes all David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): With the the way back to the 1980s and the original Brixton riots. utmost respect to the Home Secretary, may I put on the Given that successive Governments have failed to act, record my concerns about some of the proposals? I she gets some credit from some of us for taking things suggest that one thing that is lacking is a change to as far as she has, but there is no single issue that poisons PACE that would allow officers who stop somebody relationships between urban communities and the police with serial offences of carrying weapons or drugs to use more than stop-and-search. We all heard her say that that previous criminal record as grounds for a search. unless the ratio between stops and arrests gets better, Those grounds are specifically banned under PACE at there will need to be legislation. She must be aware that the moment. If the power is about targeting real criminals, she will be held to that. we need to make sure that it helps police officers go after the real criminals, as well as perhaps making it Mrs May: I have absolutely no doubt that the hon. harder for them to go after those who are not committing Lady and others in this House will do just that. crimes. Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con): The Home Mrs May: I recognise that my hon. Friend, as a Secretary’s statement will be welcomed by everyone special constable, has particular experience in these who believes in fairness, irrespective of the community matters. I will reflect carefully on his comment. I want they come from. She has taken a really common-sense to reiterate that I accept that stop-and-search is a very approach. She mentioned community involvement in important power. What is crucial is to make sure that it the “best use of stop-and-search” scheme. Will she is used properly, because if it is not used properly but is outline in a little more detail the mechanism for formal misused, then it falls into disrepute. engagement between the police and communities? Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): No one Mrs May: There are two elements of the extra community can excuse the abuse of stop-and-search powers, but involvement that we are introducing. One is the requirement does the Home Secretary accept that the Security Service that forces will have policies at local level to enable believes that it cannot move effectively against organised members of the community to apply to go out on patrol crime without the proper and appropriate use of stop- with them, so that they can see what is happening and and-search? Will she therefore assure the House that can comment on that. The other is the new community her proposals will not undermine the safety and protection trigger in relation to complaints. We will work with of the community? forces to ensure that there is a process, such that if there has been a considerable number of complaints about Mrs May: Yes, I can. I am absolutely clear that this is the use of stop-and-search in an area, the police will an important power, but it is an important power that need to engage with the community about it. should be used properly and effectively. I can give the hon. Gentleman the assurance he asks for by again I want to see what is anyway supposed, under the citing the experience that the Metropolitan police has code of practice, to be there, which is that police forces already had: it has reduced its no-suspicion stop-and- are working with their communities—talking to them searches by 90% and its overall stop-and-searches by about where particular powers are used, and explaining 20%; yet stabbings and gunshot crimes have actually how those powers are targeted—so that police forces fallen over the same period. It is therefore possible to can get community buy-in from the very start. use this important power more effectively than it is being used at the moment. Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ Co-op): The Home Secretary’s comments are very welcome. Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): I thank the One of the big issues in my constituency and around the Home Secretary for her announcement. She will recall country is not the number of stop-and-searches, but that we recently met a young man who has been stopped the manner in which officers conduct them. I hope that 50 times in the past five years, from the ages of 13 to 18. the training will take into account schemes such as a That state of affairs just cannot continue. The last time “changing places” scheme that has been pioneered in he was stopped he was collecting some milk for his Hackney. She has talked about the proposals being mum. I welcome the announcement, but I say to the taken up voluntarily, and I hear her argument about Home Secretary that I thank God my children are not that being quicker in the short term, but will she tell us stopped regularly, because I would have a sense of total how many forces have said that they will sign up? desolation and alienation if that happened to them. Mrs May: In response to the hon. Lady’s last point, Mrs May: My hon. Friend makes an important point. as I said in my statement, the Metropolitan police has The testimony of that young man really brought home signed up and I have written to every other force asking to me both the extent to which the misuse of stop-and- them to sign up. The police and crime commissioners in search can alienate people, and the problems that people the major metropolitan areas, where the power is likely from particular communities, such as that young black to be used to a significant extent, are of course Labour 841 Stop-and-Search30 APRIL 2014 Stop-and-Search 842

[Mrs May] people, 18 in 1,000 for Asian people and 45 in 1,000 for black people. One of the worst areas in the country for police and crime commissioners, and I entirely trust the stopping and searching of Asian people was Gwent, that Labour Front Benchers will encourage them to where they were six times more likely to be stopped and adopt such processes. searched than white people. Will those disparities be obvious under her new plans, and will she identify and Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con): Does deal with them? the Home Secretary agree that, beyond the PACE codes and top-down guidance, another layer of protection for Mrs May: Absolutely. We will put the figures on the individual is the entrenched discretion in the office stop-and-searches on the www.police.uk website, alongside of constable? Whatever the PACE codes say and whatever the crime maps, which have proved to be successful and she or chief constables say, any search is illegal unless popular. The figures that the hon. Gentleman has given the individual officer suspects the individual they search. for Gwent show the problem of disproportionality in the stop-and-searches that are being undertaken. I hope Mrs May: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The that he will play his role by encouraging the police in figure in the HMIC survey showing that 27% of stop- Gwent to sign up to the “best use of stop-and-search” and-searches did not have reasonable grounds was shocking. scheme so that we can change behaviour there, as in That is precisely why we will change the code of conduct— other places. “Code A”—under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act to make absolutely clear what reasonable grounds Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con): I grew up of suspicion are. in Belfast in the early 1970s and, even in the context of a live terrorism situation, there was widespread resentment Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op): In seeking to of the use of random stop-and-searches, which led to improve stop-to-arrest ratios, how will the Home Secretary the alienation of some parts of the community. However, measure success: by a reduction in the number of stops does my right hon. Friend agree that it is the abuse of or an increase in the number of arrests—rightful or the power, rather than the power itself, that needs to be wrongful—which she may inadvertently encourage? dealt with? Will she comment further on what she said about holding officers to account for their use of the Mrs May: As I have made clear, I want the number of power? Will she confirm that it is not just police areas stops to come down. The Metropolitan police has already that will be held to account, but individual officers? been able to do that through the changes it has made. I want the stop-to-arrest ratio to go up. We will ensure Mrs May: I am happy to confirm that to my hon. that the training of officers is such that, with the other Friend. He is right to say that this is an important measures that I am taking, I expect precisely such power and that it is its abuse that causes the problem. It changes to come through as a result of our reforms. is the abuse of the power that brings it into disrepute. The revised code will emphasise that when officers do Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con): The figures not use their powers properly, they will be subject to given by my right hon. Friend on stop-and-search are formal performance or disciplinary proceedings. The frankly a stain on British policing. The vast majority of individual officer has to ensure that they are using the stop-and-search powers are exercised under the Police powers properly. If they are not, action will be taken and Criminal Evidence Act, and police officers are against them. required to have reasonable suspicion before exercising those powers. Do not the figures indicate that, sadly, in Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): The Home a large number of cases it is nothing but the colour of Secretary will be aware that the main reason for the the skin of the person being stopped that has caused the Brixton riots was the notorious sus laws. Lord Scarman’s stop-and-search to happen? inquiry confirmed that and led to the PACE legislation. I am pleased to hear the announcement this afternoon, Mrs May: I am sorry to say that my hon. Friend is although I would have preferred further legislation. right. It is clear that in a large number of cases, there Given that young people in particular have been affected were no reasonable grounds for suspicion. Given that a by stop-and-search, will she reassure me that there will black person is six times more likely to be stopped and be continuous monitoring of the use of this power? Will searched than a white person, one can only assume that she confirm, as has been said by other Members, that it is the fact that the person is black that leads to the people who abuse the power should be held accountable? stop-and-search taking place. Mrs May: The use of the power will be monitored in Michael Ellis: Disgraceful. a number of ways. As I have said, the figures will be on the website. We are introducing the requirement for Mrs May: It is absolutely disgraceful. Sadly, as I extra information to be recorded so that it will be indicated in response to another hon. Friend, the feeling possible to monitor the extent to which stop-and-searches has been passed through to young people in black and lead to a disposal, arrest or other action. We will then minority ethnic communities that this is what happens be able to look even more closely at how the power is and is, if you like, a fact of life. I want to change that being used. Getting that information will be an important and ensure that it is not a fact of life. part of the process.

Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): The charity Release Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): Like many other published figures to show that the chance of being people, I thank the Home Secretary for addressing stopped and searched was seven in 1,000 for white seriously the misuse of stop-and-search powers, which 843 Stop-and-Search30 APRIL 2014 Stop-and-Search 844 is probably the worst form of legal racial abuse in our that does not become a working quota that must be met country, and for demolishing so effectively the arguments before a public explanation by the police is needed? of the shadow Home Secretary by confronting her with Who will set the threshold for the trigger, and will it be the fact that Labour did nothing in office to stop the locality sensitive, rather than force-wide? Will a public abuse. May I point out that there are Conservative explanation be given if the number of complaints is Members who feel that legislative changes may be required? short of the threshold, but there is a suggestive pattern Will my right hon. Friend assure us that if the changes of concern? are not made, she will have no hesitation in coming back to the House and asking for primary legislation? Mrs May: The hon. Gentleman is right that the new power has to be used carefully and properly so that it Mrs May: I give my hon. Friend that absolute assurance. does not become a mechanistic process or something However, as I said earlier, the situation has changed that is abused in any way. I want to see a situation where because of the case law that was set by the determination it does not have to be used because police forces talk to in the Roberts case. I am very clear that if I do not see the communities in their locality in advance and ensure change, I will be back with primary legislation. that they are involved in and understand the use of stop-and-search. We will look into exactly the sorts of Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): As someone issues that he has raised, such as whether the process who secured a Westminster Hall debate on stop-and-search will be locality sensitive and how it will be put in place, two years ago, I welcome the Secretary of State’s comments to ensure that it is effective in the places where it is in as far as they go. In my constituency, there is undoubtedly necessary. huge concern about the misuse of stop-and-search powers, but the number of complaints to the police does not Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): I welcome my right necessarily reflect the concern in the community. What hon. Friend’s action today and her invitation to all does she plan to do to raise awareness among the people police forces to sign up to the scheme. Does she share who are most often on the receiving end of this policing my expectation that if a police force does not sign up to tool of how to make complaints and of the standards the scheme, it will owe it to its community to explain that they should expect when they experience it? why it has not done so?

Mrs May: We are exploring how we can best get that Mrs May: My hon. Friend makes an interesting message across. As I have mentioned, part of the package point and I absolutely agree. I think a police force that we are introducing in “best use of stop-and-search” would owe it to its communities to explain why it had is that a significant number of complaints on the use of not signed up. stop-and-search in an area will trigger a response from the police. We are looking at how we can best use Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) various means of communicating with people, particularly (Lab): May I press the Home Secretary on the number young people, about the extent to which they can complain. of police forces expected to sign up, and on the time As the hon. Lady and others will know from their frame over which she will be monitoring this measure to experience, the sad fact is that because so many people decide whether legislation is needed? accept that this is just what happens, they do not complain. When the power is used improperly, we want Mrs May: I want all forces in England and Wales to complaints to come through. We are looking at what sign up to the code, and I hope that Members of the information we can put out about how stop-and-search House will do what they can to encourage their local should be conducted. The point that the hon. Member police and crime commissioners and chief constables to for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) made do just that. As I indicated earlier, I will not set a earlier about the manner in which stop-and-search is timetable for introducing legislation, partly for the reasons undertaken is important and has been raised with me by I set out in response to the Chair of the Home Affairs young people. They say that if it is done with respect, Committee. they have less concern about it than if it is done in the usual way. Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): I warmly welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement. I have long Dr Phillip Lee (Bracknell) (Con): It is worth repeating advocated intelligence-led policing, and this is a significant that the number of people stopped and searched under step along that road. Does she agree that the amendments the Terrorism Act 2000 was 32,000 in 2002-03 and to PACE code A—which are statutory because PACE 210,000 in 2008-09, and that last year the figure fell to code A is a statutory instrument—will represent real zero. Does the Home Secretary agree that that makes change for the vast majority of stop-and-searches, and the Conservative party, and not Labour, the real party that her approach on section 60 stop-and-searches replicates of the reform of stop-and-search? what has happened with stop-and-searches under the Terrorism Act 2000, where we have seen a reduction to Mrs May: It is, indeed, a Conservative Home Secretary nought without primary legislative change? who is bringing these measures forward, but the Deputy Leader of the House, who is sitting next to me, points Mrs May: My hon. Friend is absolutely right and it is out that this is a coalition Government. a pity that everybody seems to have ignored or missed the point about the importance of PACE code A and Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): I welcome the Home the impact that it has on forces. That is why it is so Secretary’s statement for reasons that have already been important that, as I said, we will be amending that code expressed. She says that the community trigger hinges in a number of ways, particularly to make it absolutely on a large volume of complaints. Will she ensure that clear what are reasonable grounds of suspicion. 845 Stop-and-Search30 APRIL 2014 Stop-and-Search 846

Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): Does the Home Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): Secretary agree that one of the tragedies of the misuse I congratulate my right hon. Friend on her statement of stop-and-search powers is that it puts up barriers and on so clearly highlighting the difference between between the police and communities that themselves are the records of this Government and the Labour often the victims of crime? In the process of consulting Government. Does she agree that it is entirely unacceptable on this—I know West Mercia police has been consulting for anybody to be stopped and searched on the basis of widely in my area with ethnic minority communities—police the colour of their skin? forces should be trying as hard to ensure that they address the concerns of communities about crime as Mrs May: I absolutely agree and that is why the they do about stop-and-search. reforms we are bringing forward are so important.

Mrs May: My hon. Friend is right, and I also hope Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): As a serving that by addressing concerns about stop-and-search, people special constable with the British Transport police, I will see it being used more effectively to help deal with warmly welcome the Home Secretary’s proposals. Which crime that has taken place in those communities. As he police force is best at stop-and-search, which has the says, the problem is that when there is that alienation, best stop-to-arrest ratios, and how might they be involved often information does not come to the police that in training other police forces? Following the question could be helpful to them in stopping those crimes or from my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne dealing with those committing them. (Mr Walker) about the lad who was stopped 50 times, can we ensure that such individuals are involved in the College of Policing and in devising training programmes, Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): I welcome my so that police constables have real life examples of right hon. Friend’s statement, and particularly her praise where things have gone wrong, which would then be in for the enlightened leadership of Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe. their minds when they go out on the streets? He has done a brilliant job in London in turning round a difficult situation. We are seeking to transform the Mrs May: The most improved force, certainly in culture of the police force. One way that could be done relation to stop-and-search, is the Metropolitan police is if at the pre-shift roster meetings held every day, the force with the work that Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe has police inspector or sergeant who is briefing the constables been doing to change its approach to stop-and-searches. going on the streets repeatedly reminds officers of their We have seen across the board that there is often good duty and of what they need to do to ensure they gain practice in pockets of forces. The first stage of the work the trust of the public. that I have been doing with forces on stop-and-search was precisely to encourage the Association of Chief Mrs May: My hon. Friend makes an interesting Police Officers—as the business leads were then under suggestion. That is an operational matter and it is for the aegis of ACPO—to spread good practice. However, the police to decide how they undertake those briefings it has been necessary to come forward with this wider and the information they give to officers. However, he is package of reforms to ensure that best practice is spread. right to commend Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe for the My hon. Friend makes an interesting suggestion, and changes he has already put in place in the Metropolitan the more we can alert police officers to the impact of police, and I am pleased that the Met has signed up to what they are doing by talking to people who have been the “best use of stop-and-search” scheme, so that we on the receiving end, the more they will come to understand can see further changes still. the problem. 847 30 APRIL 2014 National Planning Policy Framework 848 (Community Involvement) National Planning Policy Framework cities, despite it having the lowest population increase of (Community Involvement) any major city since the 2001 census. It does not make sense. A local campaign group, Wharfedale and Airedale Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order Review Development, has pointed out that if figures are No. 23) calculated on the 2011 census, the figure should be only 48,000, yet a higher target is being imposed on local 1.35 pm people. That is the situation in Leeds, but it is reflected Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): I beg to around the country. move, We also have permitted development rights for assets That leave be given to bring a Bill to make further provision for and local facilities that clearly involve a fundamental the National Planning Policy Framework; and for connected change of use, and the loss of that community facility. purposes. That can apply to community centres, local shops, post The planning community involvement Bill seeks to offices and pubs. It is great news that the Government build on the initiatives in the Localism Act 2011 to give have now responded on betting shops. It was clearly an communities more of a say in planning decisions, and absurdity to allow betting shops to go through without to amend the national planning policy framework. Despite planning permission, and it is also absurd—and I speak having much to commend it and despite it being a in this regard as the chairman of the all-party save the much-needed simplification of planning law, that framework pub group—that pubs can become supermarkets, solicitors’ has still not got the balance right between the rights of offices or payday loan shops without having to go developers and those of local communities. It is also not through the planning process and without any opportunity being properly implemented by some local authorities. for the community to have a say. In a June 2011 guide to the Localism Bill, the then The Department for Communities and Local planning Minister stated that the purpose of the Government says that that problem is solved by the Government’s localism agenda—one I warmly welcomed assets of community value scheme and article 4 directions, —was but it is not. The ACV initiative is being undermined “to help people and their locally elected representatives achieve by the inadequacy of the planning system, and in their own ambitions”. many areas the Localism Act 2011 is being ignored. For Although I am delighted that the coalition Government example, recently in my constituency an application was have taken many steps in the right direction, including made to build houses and a supermarket on a playing the assets of community value scheme, neighbourhood field, in an area where local schools do not have their development plans and a number of measures, in reality own playing fields. Despite a campaign by the local many of our constituents—including those of Members Hyde Park Olympic legacy group and a pending asset from both coalition parties, and around the House—know of community value application, the application went that unwanted development is still being imposed on through. That is scandalous, and my Bill would address them, often with little chance to do anything about it. that. Developers are still cherry-picking greenfield sites Some 350 pubs have been listed as ACVs, but how and building expensive multi-bedroom houses in areas many have actually been saved? The answer is only a that do not want and cannot support significant few. In London, the Campaign for Real Ale has pointed development. That is not what the country needs; we to several pubs—the Castle in Battersea is a heap of need more affordable homes in key areas and more rubble, the George IV in Brixton is a Tesco store, and social housing. Reform is needed to ensure that building the Chesham Arms is an office with an unauthorised happens where it is wanted and needed by communities flat. The initiative is being undermined. and regions, and on brownfield sites first, not simply My Bill would abolish the right of developers to where developers will make money building homes that appeal. There has been an inequity between communities are out of the reach of the pockets of ordinary people. and developers for too long. A report by Savills estate These are sensible measures; they are not radical and agents shows that 75% of all planning appeals for large this is not nimbyism. I do not propose to try to stop housing developments are allowed after local councils development everywhere, and I am certainly not trying have originally voted them down. My Bill proposes the to discourage the housing we need. The measures in my simplest and cheapest solution, which is to abolish the Bill are supported by organisations such as the Campaign right to override local authority decisions by appealing to Protect Rural England, which has suggested a number to a distant planning inspector. That would be good of measures, the Campaign for Real Ale, Civic Voice, news for the Treasury, because we could abolish the and also by the Local Government Association and Planning Inspectorate, saving £50 million a year. local councils. I hope that the Bill will start a debate I acknowledge that we need new homes, but paragraph 49 about how we can reform the planning system to get it of the national planning policy framework should be right as we approach the general election, which is now amended to demand that developers must still meet just a year away. In Leeds, many communities such as local policy objectives, such as where a local authority Cookridge, Bramhope, Pool-in-Wharfedale and Adel, seeks to prioritise development on brownfield sites before are already facing huge increases in housing, including greenfield sites, and sweep away the nonsense of councils on green-belt land. That is at a time when many parts of being unable to demonstrate a five-year land supply. the city and region are crying out for housing of the sort My Bill would also drop the requirement in the that we need, yet those sites are simply being land-banked NPPF that local authorities should allocate an additional and ignored. 20% buffer of deliverable housing sites. Developers There are also issues with housing targets. For example, can cause a 20% buffer to be required, rather than Leeds city council is proposing to build 70,000 homes a 5% buffer, by under-delivering housing, so they are by 2028. That is the highest figure among all major UK manipulating the system. 849 National Planning Policy Framework 30 APRIL 2014 850 (Community Involvement) [Greg Mulholland] Section 5 of the European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 My Bill would give councils the power to refuse applications on prematurity grounds. Local plans and neighbourhood development plans can often take a 1.47 pm long while to develop. Developers know that and exploit The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Nicky Morgan): it. With an increasingly transient population, we should I beg to move, stop focusing simply on local authority areas and having artificial targets set by the local authority—in the case That this House approves, for the purposes of Section 5 of the European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993, the Government’s of Leeds, they are wrong—and look at how local authorities assessment as set out in Budget 2014 and Autumn Statement can work together, rather than in isolation, to address 2013, combined with the Office for Budget Responsibility’s Economic the country’s housing needs and where we should be and Fiscal Outlook (2014) and Fiscal Sustainability Report (2013), building homes. which forms the basis of the United Kingdom’s Convergence We need an overhaul of the plans panels process, Programme. which is frankly a fig leaf. Plans panels are presented as I welcome this opportunity to listen to Members’ a quasi-judicial process, but they break every norm of views on the information that will be provided to the any fair or just process. In Leeds, they allow a lengthy Commission this year under section 5 of the European presentation by the developer and then only three minutes Communities (Amendment) Act 1993. As in previous for two individuals to speak against. We need a proper years, the Government will inform the Commission of process, with an independent chair, that gives equal the UK’s economic and budgetary position in line with time to proposers and opponents of significant our commitments under the European Union’s stability developments. and growth pact. The Government plan to submit their We need to do more to prioritise brownfield land, convergence programme today, with the approval of and my Bill would put a specific requirement on developers, both Houses. as well as local authorities, to prioritise brownfield sites The convergence programme explains the Government’s through controlling or phasing the order in which allocated medium-term fiscal policies, as set out in the 2013 sites become available for development. My Bill would autumn statement. also ensure that councils have the power to refuse applications on greenfield sites until such sites have Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): I am grateful actually been brought forward for development. Developers to my hon. Friend for giving way so early in her speech. are deliberately not bringing such sites forward so that As she will know, today is the last day for the convergence they cannot be considered, and then the developers can programme to be submitted under the economic governance use the loophole to get planning permission. pact. As she said, it requires the approval of both The Government have had the common sense to deal Houses. The other place is not sitting today. Has its with betting shops, and my Bill would do the same thing approval already been obtained and why have we waited to stop the nonsensical conversion of assets of community until the last day? value to uses that are clearly different, including those suggested by CAMRA. The ACV scheme was a good Nicky Morgan: I know that my hon. Friend is an start, but our communities deserve more than simply a assiduous follower of these matters, and he is right. The right to try to raise money to make a bid that can then other place had a short debate on the convergence be ignored. My Bill would do what the Localism Act programme on 9 April. He will know, and I am learning, 2011 should have done and bring in a genuine community about the vagaries of timetabling debates, which have right to buy. It would also tighten the legislation and meant that this was the earliest day that we could debate guidance so that councils do not unreasonably deny the convergence programme in the House. I am told communities the right to list local assets, as has recently that in previous years the convergence programme has and disgracefully happened in Leeds. been sent in draft to the Commission, but we were keen that we should debate and send the final document. The Ministers have made considerable improvements to convergence programme document was put before both make the planning system simpler and more accessible Houses in a written ministerial statement dated 3 April, to the public—and to involve local communities—but and placed in the Libraries on the same date. Members they need to go further to achieve their ambitions. We have therefore had an opportunity to consider the draft need further reform as soon as possible. document since that date, although I appreciate that the Question put and agreed to. recess has intervened. Ordered, That Greg Mulholland, Rosie Cooper, Mr Jim Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): I have raised Cunningham, Jason McCartney, Stuart Andrew, Philip this matter before on similar occasions. First, there is Davies, Martin Horwood, Chris White, Ian Swales, constant talk about convergence, but the European Mike Thornton and Julian Huppert present the Bill. Union’s economies have always exhibited divergence, not convergence. Secondly, do we want to converge with Greg Mulholland accordingly presented the Bill. an economy that is failing and growing more slowly Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on than we are? Friday 6 June, and to be printed (Bill 203). Nicky Morgan: I have read previous debates and know that the hon. Gentleman is assiduous in attending such debates and in following these matters. The language used in titles of various EU programmes is not a matter of choice for this Government. Perhaps a better word 851 Section 5 of the European 30 APRIL 2014 Section 5 of the European 852 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 could be used, but it has not been selected by the she can give me the assurance that no part of that policy Government. I take his remarks on board. I think all of has been changed in any way to meet the requirements us know that the eurozone has not been as strong as of European convergence. even those of us outside the eurozone would like it to be—it is important for our businesses and our exporters— Nicky Morgan: I am certainly not aware of any but I will come on to show that things are looking changes. In fact, I think it would be fair to say that we better. The recovery taking place in the rest of the have led the way in Europe and the eurozone in showing European Union is slower and it is important that we exactly how important it is to return to growth and the are fully aware of, and the European Commission fully actions that need to be taken. It is interesting to see monitors, the economies of other eurozone countries, other European countries watching what this country even though—let me make it clear again—the Government has done and following some of the policies that we have no intention of joining the euro. have put in place so assiduously. It is, as I have said, very important that they return to growth for the sake of our The convergence programme explains the Government’s businesses and exporters, too. medium-term fiscal policies as set out in the 2013 The long-term economic plan has protected the economy autumn statement and in Budget 2014, and also includes through a period of global uncertainty and provided Office for Budget Responsibility forecasts. As such, it is the foundations for the UK’s economic recovery, which drawn entirely from previously published documents is now well established. Since last year, economic growth that have been presented to Parliament. With the Budget has exceeded forecasts and has been balanced across the on 19 March and Easter recess timings as they were, I main sectors of the economy. Inflation is below target appreciate, as I have already mentioned, that the timetable and the deficit has been reduced year on year. More for this debate has been particularly tight. Against this than 1.5 million private sector jobs have been created. backdrop, the Treasury has made every effort to provide Employment is at record levels and interest rates are early copies of the convergence programme document near record lows, helping to keep costs down for families in advance of today’s debate The document makes clear and businesses. The Government are also making significant that this year’s Budget reinforces the Government’s progress in reversing the unprecedented rise in borrowing determination to return the UK to growth, and reiterates between 2007-08 and 2009-10. The deficit has been cut the Government’s No. 1 priority: tackling the deficit. As by a third, as a percentage of GDP, over three years, we have already heard in interventions, there are differing and is projected to have fallen by a half, as a percentage views on the value of submitting stability or convergence of GDP, by 2014-15. The OBR also forecasts public programmes, especially for the UK, given that the sector net borrowing to reach a small surplus in 2018-19. Government have ruled out joining, or preparing to The independent OBR has judged that the Government join, the single currency. remain on track to meet the fiscal mandate one year The document forms part of the European semester early. process, which provides a broad framework for the The Government’s consolidation plans have been central co-ordination of the monitoring and surveillance of to the reduction in the deficit, with £64 billion of the member states’ fiscal and economic policies, including £80 billion spending reductions in spending review 2010 necessary structural reforms across the EU. The positive already implemented. The Government are continuing value of the European semester is that it is a useful to take action to improve financial management and means to encourage other member states to grip the spending control. Departments remain ahead of their urgent growth challenge across the EU. consolidation targets and are again forecast to underspend Budget 2014 set out the Government’s assessment of by £7 billion in 2013-14. The OBR judges that fiscal the UK’s medium-term and budgetary position. The consolidation has not had a larger drag on the economy UK economy is still recovering from the most damaging than it expected in June 2010, and the UK’s fiscal financial crisis in generations. We had the biggest bank vulnerabilities argue strongly in favour of maintaining bail-out in the world, the biggest deficit since the second our commitment to deficit reduction. The OBR forecasts world war and suffered the deepest recession in modern that the underlying structural deficit is falling, but it is times. In the face of such a daunting economic challenge, falling no faster than previously forecast, despite higher it is essential to have a clear and comprehensive plan. growth. The persistence of the structural challenge supports In 2010, the Government set out clear, credible and the Government’s argument that economic growth alone specific medium-term consolidation plans to return the cannot be relied on to eliminate a structural deficit. As public finances to a sustainable path. Our plan makes my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has said, the job is clear that we will fix the economy and deal with the not yet done. More work will need to be done to tackle deficit, cut tax to encourage investment, back businesses, historic weaknesses, including low productivity, poor control welfare and invest in skills. We are putting that skills and inadequate infrastructure. The deficit is still plan in place. We have adhered to it and we are delivering one of the highest in the developed world and the UK results with it. The Government’s fiscal strategy has needs to continue to deal with its debts. We are on the restored fiscal credibility, allowing activist monetary right track. The deficit has already been cut by one policy and the automatic stabilisers to support the third. Budget 2014 is fiscally neutral, despite lower economy and ensure that the burden is shared fairly borrowing across the forecast period, with an overall across society. reduction in tax funded by a reduction in spending. We have set out our fiscal consolidation plan and it is vital Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): I am to stick to it in future years. extremely grateful to the Minister for outlining the Budget 2014 announced that the Government are excellent economic policy that Her Majesty’s Government cutting income taxes and freezing fuel duty to help have so successfully been following. I wonder whether hard-working people to be more financially secure; 853 Section 5 of the European 30 APRIL 2014 Section 5 of the European 854 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 [Nicky Morgan] because it has to meet the requirements of the European Union. Therefore there is the risk of getting inefficient creating more jobs by backing small business and enterprise spending out of our own net contributions. We risk with better infrastructure and lower job taxes; capping wasting money and having a bigger deficit by dong this welfare and controlling immigration, so that the UK through a third party, rather than through the actions economy delivers for people who want to work hard of our own Government. and play by the rules; and delivering the best schools, skills and apprenticeships for our young people. The Nicky Morgan: My hon. Friend is right, and he OBR has revised the UK’s growth forecast upwards and tempts me down a particular path—to say whether it is now among the highest in the EU. membership of the EU broadly benefits this country. I As the Chancellor said, the job is not yet done and am sure that we could have a whole debate on that, and the same is true for the rest of the EU, which is the UK’s I know that he could go on for hours and hours on that most important trading partner. Some 45% of our particular subject. [Interruption.] We will not do that, exports are destined for the EU, and seven of the UK’s Madam Deputy Speaker; I take your guidance. Of top 10 trading partners are EU member states. Without course, this Parliament is getting less money because sustainable economic growth, the EU will be unable to the previous Government gave away at least a percentage, repay its debts, create jobs or maintain its standard of if not half, of our rebate. Over the course of this living. Much of the answers to these problems lie with Parliament, this country will receive about £10 billion national-level reforms, such as creating flexible labour less from the EU than we would have done had we stuck markets. Clearly, the European semester has a key role to the rebate arrangements agreed by a previous Prime to play in encouraging member states to make ambitious Minister—probably the best part of 30 years ago. reform commitments. The UK has an interest in making sure those reforms happen. An ambitious EU-level Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): Is the reform agenda is also a key part of this equation and an Minister aware that this very morning, money was essential counterpart to national-level reforms. While granted to the Isle of Wight and plenty of other parts of I can understand that some may be cautious about the country through the Minister of State, Department encouraging the UK to do more, an EU growth agenda for Business, Innovation and Skills, my right hon. Friend would make a major contribution to growth across the the Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon). Yet instead EU as a whole and benefit the UK. Recent European of that being done here and now, the money had to go Councils have underscored the strong commitment of all the way over to Europe for the EU to sort out some Heads of State or Government to supporting growth mad scheme. and competitiveness. I know that the Prime Minister has been driving forward this agenda, along with leaders Nicky Morgan: To respond briefly, I entirely understand from a substantial group of like-minded member states. my hon. Friend’s point. I suspect he will be pleased that Some would claim that we cannot have EU economic the money has come to the Isle of Wight. I take his growth without EU spending growth. I disagree. While broader point about the benefits of membership and some areas of the EU budget, such as spending on the amounts of money spent, which could be the subject innovation and research and development, have the for a different debate at a different time. In respect of potential to support growth, this in fact represents only the EU budget, it is also worth remembering that the 13% of the total EU budget. However, deploying EU-level Prime Minister went to Europe last year to negotiate a policies in support of economic growth, such as the smaller future budget contribution over the course of single market, regulatory reform and EU-level free trade the next seven years, which had never been achieved agreements, can achieve maximum growth impact at the before. His determination to work with like-minded least cost. member states to achieve that is what enabled it to happen. I would have thought that all Members, and Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): The Minister makes a particularly Conservative Members, would hugely welcome point about EU spending. Does she join me in welcoming that. the fact that certain parts of the country have EU The need comprehensively to address Europe’s growth transitional status, which causes EU money to flow to challenge, tackling overall low productivity and the lack areas such as the Tees valley? of economic dynamism and flexibility, is more pressing than ever before, and it is in our interest to make urgent Nicky Morgan: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. progress. That is why the UK will continue to push this As we are a part of the EU and contribute, as a country, agenda at the highest levels and encourage the new to the EU budget, it is absolutely right that some of that Commission to take structural reform seriously. money comes back to this country—or to particular To conclude, the Government are committed to ensuring parts of this country—and we see the benefit of that that, in line with section 5 of the European Communities financial contribution. He mentions his area of the (Amendment) Act 1993, this House approves the economic country, and I know that EU funding in the midlands and budgetary assessment that forms the basis of the has been particularly valuable in supporting vital work convergence programme. Following what I hope will be on things such skills and apprenticeships. the House’s approval of that assessment, the Government will submit the convergence programme to the European Jacob Rees-Mogg: I wonder whether my hon. Friend Commission, which will make its recommendations to should be a bit careful about welcoming EU spending all EU member states in early June. These recommendations in this country because it was our money in the first will then be considered by the ECOFIN Council on place and it is not necessarily being spent in the way 20 June and agreed by Heads of State or Government at that Her Majesty’s Government would wish to spend it the European Council on 26 and 27 June. 855 Section 5 of the European 30 APRIL 2014 Section 5 of the European 856 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 To reiterate, the convergence programme contains no in that way—asking whether the Red Book is in and of new information, but only information that has been itself a true and accurate reflection of that—I would presented previously to Parliament—information from have to say, “Where shall I start?”. It will probably not the OBR’s economic and fiscal outlook and from the surprise Government Members to know that the Opposition Budget, which sets out the Government’s strategy to do not consider it a true and accurate reflection of what return the UK to sustainable growth. For the reasons I is happening in the UK economy have outlined, I ask the House to support the Government Let me start with the top line of page 4 of the Red motion and I look forward to hearing the debate. Book: “The government’s long-term economic plan is underpinned 2.5 pm by its commitment to fairness.” Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab): I seem to remember that during the run-up to the last I am grateful to the new Financial Secretary to the general election, before the Government began their life Treasury for her introduction to the debate, and I in the current Parliament, the right hon. Member for congratulate her on her promotion to her new post. Tatton (Mr Osborne), who was to become Chancellor I look forward to continuing the debate with her in the of the Exchequer, uttered his famous line about how Finance Bill Committee, which got off to such a strong they were not going to balance the books on the backs start yesterday. of the poor. There was also that other famous line about how we were all in it together. On the face of it, When I first looked at the motion, I was mystified who could say that those sentiments were wrong? Certainly, about the nature of the debate, which is why I have if they had proved to be genuine, we should be in a very thanked the Financial Secretary for her introduction to different place. it. The motion, as framed, does not exactly leap off the Order Paper. When Members go to the Vote Office, as At the heart of those lines of rhetoric, however, is the I did to find the convergence documents, they will find implication of a deep commitment to fairness. My that the motion still does not quite leap out at us in charge against the Government is that that commitment— respect of what is going on in the House this afternoon. and the “commitment to fairness” to which the Red That situation is not a state of affairs that is alien to Book refers—can only be seen as genuine if we accept Members, given that we often have to debate issues that that “fairness” can describe an economic plan that gives can sometimes seem impenetrable to those on the outside, a huge tax cut to the wealthiest in our country. In the and often to those on the inside too. 2012 Budget, the Government announced a tax cut for millionaires that would be worth an average of £100,000 Let us turn to what could be described as “minus to each of them—a sum that is far out of the reach of page 2” of the Red Book. I thought it quite telling that millions of people in our country today. Meanwhile, the underneath a note about the Crown copyright and the Government are presiding over what might be termed ISBN number, are the words: one of our more successful growth industries, which, “Printed on paper containing 75% recycled fibre”, unfortunately, happens to be the food bank industry. and The number of people receiving three days of emergency “The Budget report, combined with the Office for Budget food has grown from 67,000 four years ago to 913,000. Responsibility’s Economic and fiscal outlook, constitutes the How can it possibly be true that, as the Red Book states, Government’s assessment under section 5 of the European the Government have a deep “commitment to fairness”, Communities (Amendment) Act 1993”. when the richest members of our society receive a huge That is relevant to today’s debate, as the Minister helpfully tax cut while the poorest, in ever growing numbers, are outlined in her introduction. This is in a very small font being forced to use food banks? and is easy to miss, and it is not immediately clear what it really means. Ian Swales: Perhaps the shadow Minister will quote Looking at the 1993 Act, Members will have spotted another statement in the Red Book, namely the statement that it refers to the Maastricht treaty, article 2 of which that net income inequality is at its lowest since 1986. states: The period following that year has included 13 years of “The Community shall have as its task...a harmonious and her party in government. balanced development of economic activities, sustainable and non-inflationary growth”. Shabana Mahmood: Later in my speech, I shall deal Article 103 is relevant, too, as it talks about economic directly with issues relating to household income and policies being a “matter of common concern” that what is happening to the ability of families on low and should be co-ordinated within the Council. For some middle incomes to make ends meet. Members of all parties, these are the sort of words that are difficult to stomach. That article continues: Mr Simon Burns (Chelmsford) (Con): The hon. Lady “For the purpose of this multilateral surveillance, Member has been making a big point about fairness. Would it States shall forward information to the Commission about important not be fair to point out that, since coming to power, the measures taken by them in the field of their economic policy”. Government have considerably increased the personal Once we break through the rather impenetrable language allowance—from just under £7,000 a year to £10,000—and and the odd nature of this old treaty obligation, the that that has helped the poorest who are in work and emphasis of which has changed from when the obligation paying taxes, as well as middle-income families? was made to the state of play within the EU today, what we get to is the fact that the House is essentially being Shabana Mahmood: I shall deal with precisely what asked to approve the Budget Red Book as a true and has happened to the personal allowance later in my accurate reflection of what is happening in the UK speech, but let me make this point to the right hon. economy. When we are finally able to frame the question Gentleman now. It is true that the personal allowance 857 Section 5 of the European 30 APRIL 2014 Section 5 of the European 858 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 [Shabana Mahmood] be eliminated by 2015; indeed, the current forecast is that it will not be eliminated until 2017-18, when we has risen, and the Opposition have supported those shall be well into the next Parliament. That is not the changes, including yesterday when we debated clause 2 test that the Government set themselves for their economic of the Finance Bill in Committee. However, it is also plan, which has failed on its own terms. true that ordinary working people continue to be worse off despite the changes, and will still be worse off in Mr Andrew Turner: Does the hon. Lady agree that 2015 than they were in 2010. This is a classic case of the one of the problems was Europe, and the fact that its Government’s giving with one hand and taking away the budget burst into flames in 2011 or 2012? much more with the other, and it goes to the heart of the “fairness” charge that I am laying at their door. Shabana Mahmood: What we are being asked to do I was very struck by the suggestion made by a welfare today is approve a document on the basis that it is an Minister, Lord Freud, that the reason for the massive accurate reflection of what is happening in the UK increase in the number of people who are using food economy. I am afraid that the document does not banks and having to rely on food parcels from them was accept the fact that the Government are not on track to that meet the challenge that they set themselves, and promised “there is an almost infinite demand for a free good.”—[Official the electorate that they would deliver on at the last Report, House of Lords, 2 July 2013; Vol. 746, c. 1072.] election. They suggested that, if the Chancellor’s programme I had to read that comment several times, because I of fiscal consolidation was pursued—which it was—the could not quite believe that such words could emerge budget deficit would be eliminated by the end of this from anyone’s mouth during a discussion about food Parliament, and the fact that that is not going to happen poverty and the fact that people are going hungry in our goes to the heart of the motion. country. When the story about the huge increase in the However, the Government are not just off track in number of people using food banks hit the news a relation to the central promise that they made to the couple of weeks ago, I was also struck by the main electorate at the beginning of this Parliament about the attack line from those on the Government Benches: the elimination of the deficit. The national debt is rising, claim that the increase had a lot to do with advertising and the Government are set not to meet their target of and the fact that many more people are now aware of ensuring that it falls as a share of GDP by 2015-16, food banks. although anyone reading the Red Book in isolation would be forgiven for thinking that everything was Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. going exactly according to their original plan. The hon. Lady will be aware that this is a very narrow motion. I am sure that she is using the matter to which Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am enjoying a good deal of the she is referring as an example, which is in order, but I hon. Lady’s speech, but she ignores the crucial point: expect that she will be very careful not to stray too far the Office for National Statistics substantially revised from the very narrow terms of the motion. downwards the economic growth in 2008 and 2009, so Shabana Mahmood: I will, of course, be careful, the origins of this problem lie with the previous socialist Madam Deputy Speaker. However, the point that I am Government, who ruined the economy. Blaming it on making relates directly to what is in the Red Book, to the marvellous work of this Government is entirely false. the nature of the motion that we are being asked to support, and to whether we are being presented with a Shabana Mahmood: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman true and accurate reflection of what is happening in the for his intervention, but he will not be surprised to learn United Kingdom economy. My view, and that of other that I wholly reject the point he makes. Government Opposition Members, is that the Red Book implies that Members often try to lay the whole cause of the global the “commitment to fairness” is being met. I do not financial crisis at the door of the previous Labour believe that a situation in the United Kingdom economy Government, but it was a global financial crisis that in which more and more people are being forced to use affected countries all over the world; the Labour food banks while the Government see fit to give a tax Government were not responsible for the fall of Lehman cut to the wealthiest in our country indicates a genuine Brothers in the United States. That is the first point I commitment to fairness, and it is for that reason that I would make in response to him. The second point is have rejected the thrust of the motion—which asks us that this Government have now been in power for four to approve the Red Book as such an accurate reflection— years and they cannot keep trying to get off the hook and supported the amendment. about their own record. The important point is that they set a target for themselves. Previous Red Books The Red Book paints a rosy picture of the goals that show what was supposed to happen with this programme have been met and the targets that have been delivered, of fiscal consolidation, but it has not proceeded at the but, although I looked very carefully, I could not find pace the Government set for themselves. That is not any reference to the Government’s failure to meet the spelt out clearly in the Red Book in open language that terms that they had set themselves for their so-called anybody could understand. long-term economic plan. The Minister said earlier that the Government were “on track”, which is fair enough, Anyone looking at the Red Book would be forgiven but the track to which she referred is not the track that for thinking that these are halcyon days and everything the right hon. Member for Tatton said that we would be is exactly as it was always planned to be, but that is not a on when he became Chancellor. At the beginning of true and accurate reflection of what is happening in the this Parliament, the Government said that the deficit economy. On page 1 of the Red Book, in a section from would be eliminated by 2015, but we now know that which the Minister quoted, we see that that is not the track they the are on. The deficit will not “GDP growth has exceeded forecasts”. 859 Section 5 of the European 30 APRIL 2014 Section 5 of the European 860 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 It also states that The Government talk a lot about the personal allowance, “the deficit as a share of GDP is forecast to have fallen by a half and when the charge is made that ordinary people are by 2014-15 compared to 2009-10”. suffering a deep-seated cost of living crisis, they often Again, that implies, “Everything is okay. Move along. say, “But of course we have taken a large number of There is nothing to see here.” people out of tax altogether because of the increase in the personal allowance.”Although the personal allowance Yesterday’s growth figures and the 0.8% growth we increases have been welcomed and supported by everybody have seen in the first quarter are welcome, but they do across the House, they do not in and of themselves not make up for the previous three years of flatlining in given a family the ability to make ends meet. We still the economy. We have to remember that in quarter 2 of have people who are desperately struggling, and who 2010, growth was at 1.2%, and in 2010 after coming into have their head in their hands every time a bill comes power the Chancellor said that the economy would have through the door. The truth remains that people on grown by 8.4% by now, whereas in fact it has grown by lower and middle incomes are worse off, and they will just 3.8%, which is less than half of what he forecast. be worse off at the end of this Parliament than they Again, what has happened is not quite as rosy when were at the beginning of it. The balm offered, by the compared with what was supposed to happen in terms increases in the personal allowance in particular, is not of the challenge the Chancellor set himself. It is also not enough to heal the deep wound that has been inflicted as rosy a picture as is painted in the Red Book. by all the other changes this Government have implemented Let me deal with the point about personal allowances since they have been in power. As I say, the combined raised by the right hon. Member for Chelmsford impact of tax and benefit changes means that by next (Mr Burns). We see a similar flannelling about what is year people on lower and middle incomes will be about really going on in the economy when we look at the £1,000 a year worse off. impact of tax and benefit changes on people on lower The Red Book also talks a lot about the Government’s and middle incomes and, in particular, on the interplay economic policy in relation to savers. The Chancellor with their living standards. The Red Book tells us that famously said: “a typical basic rate taxpayer will pay £705 less income tax…in “If you are a maker, a doer or a saver, this Budget is for cash terms than they would have paid in 2010-11.” you.”—[Official Report, 19 March 2014; Vol. 577, c. 781.] Page 10 of the Red Book tells us that pressures on There was not much in the Budget and the Red Book to household budgets “have eased”, but that is simply not help those who are making do—the people struggling the experience of millions of people on lower and with the cost of living crisis. But for the savers, there is middle incomes in our country. I fail to see how that much in the Red Book: about retirement choices, individual statement can be true at the same time as the OBR tells savings accounts and other savings devices. The Red us that wages will be 5.6% down in 2015 compared Book has twice as much about savers as about supporting with 2010. households. Again, however, it is not a true and accurate Treasury Ministers have failed to admit that latter reflection of what is going on in the economy, because point; they have been asked a number of times to accept the Red Book fails to recognise that for many people that the OBR has said that wages will be 5.6% down, saving, particularly at the moment, is a luxury that is but no Treasury Minister has ever answered yes or no to desperately out of reach. I can imagine the welfare that question. I will happily give way to the Financial Minister I described earlier as being baffled about why Secretary if she wants to confirm that that is the case, people go to food banks being equally baffled about but she is looking at her papers and I think she is going why people cannot save. People go to food banks because to do what every other Treasury Minister and colleague they have no money and they are going hungry. People of hers has done, which is duck the opportunity to do not save because they do not have any money left confirm on the Floor of the House and for the benefit once they have met their other costs of living. of the record that the OBR is right in saying that wages Hidden away in the documents that accompanied the will be 5.6% down in 2015 on the 2010 level. Budget we found that the OBR says that the savings ratio has fallen in recent months and is projected to fall Ian Swales: I am listening to the hon. Lady’s arguments. every year until 2018. I put that point to the Chancellor Would she like to add that because the income tax cut is yesterday when I asked him to confirm that, despite his a flat-rate amount it has the biggest impact on the Budget for savers, the savings ratio is forecast to go low-paid and that the low-paid, particularly those on down. He ducked the question and refused to accept the minimum wage, have had a real-terms increase in that that is what the OBR is saying is happening to the their net pay? savings ratio. In recent weeks, we have had a number of surveys, Shabana Mahmood: And yet people in our country particularly an important one carried out by the Money are on average £1,600 a year worse off. Let us look at Advice Service, which have shown that 16 million British the combined impact of tax and benefit changes. The people are living life on the edge with no savings at all. Institute for Fiscal Studies figures, analysed for us by Just 27% of people say that they can save on a monthly the House of Commons Library, show that on average basis, and 37% say they have fewer savings now than people will by next year be about £1,000 a year worse they had last year. The truth, which we do not see in the off. This comes back to the central point: the Government Red Book, is that savers withdrew money from their say in the Red Book that pressures on household budgets accounts last year at the fastest rate for nearly four are easing, but people are worse off, and not by trifling decades, according to Bank of England figures. Britons amounts, such as a tenner or £20 quid—they are worse ended up taking out £23 billion from long-term savings off by nearly £1,000. That is a huge sum and it has a in 2015. The ability of ordinary people on lower and huge impact on a family’s ability to make ends meet. middle incomes to save and to have enough money left 861 Section 5 of the European 30 APRIL 2014 Section 5 of the European 862 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 [Shabana Mahmood] that is how things go at the end of a session. I am not so cynical as to think that this could possibly have been over after the working week to put aside even £1 a day is planned. fairly limited. Again, that is something that has not I want to answer immediately the point about savings been spelt out in the Red Book. made by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): It has certainly (Shabana Mahmood). In all that she said on savings, been spelt out in the convergence document produced she missed the reclassification of savings that the Office by Her Majesty’s Treasury. Page 12 makes it quite clear for National Statistics has just introduced. It has roughly that falls in the rate of saving are to be expected in doubled our savings rate, because it has reclassified the periods when confidence is increasing. It goes on to say amounts that private companies put into pension funds that total household debt as a percentage of disposable as saving rather than as expenditure. That has transformed income has fallen more than 30 percentage points since our savings rate, and therefore the UK economy has its pre-crisis peak under the previous Government. had a much higher savings rate than the figures have captured for many years. We should be rather pleased Shabana Mahmood: I am afraid that that does not with the savings rate that we have and that we continue get the Government off the hook when it comes to the to have. Her point on savings, therefore, is, regrettably, impact of their own record. The decisions that the fundamentally misfounded. Government have made, both in this and previous I want to come on to what underlies this whole Budgets, have left ordinary people worse off. The rhetoric debate. People with long memories will be aware that around savers and how much there is in the Red Book the Government—the British nation—had an opt-out for savers in our country misses the point and does not of only stage 3 of monetary union. They did not have spell it out in ordinary language for the ordinary person an opt-out from the earlier stages, and that included the to understand that saving is a luxury today for millions convergence criteria to be ready to join the euro should of people struggling with a deep-seated cost of living that be the wish of the British people at any stage. These crisis. documents are part of the convergence criteria to show The Red Book gives a rosy picture of what is happening that we are making headway towards the requirements in the UK economy, but is just a good line in rhetoric set out by the European Union under a number of that is rather removed from the reality of daily life for agreements, the latest of which was in 2011, which millions of people in our country. For that reason, I basically ask for a deficit to be no more than 3% and for urge Members to reject the Government motion and to the national debt to be no more than 60%. It is about support our amendment, which, at the very least, introduces meeting those convergence criteria so that we could if an element of reality into what is a surreal characterisation we wished join the euro. It is important to bear that in of today’s British economy. mind. I am glad about the way the Government have approached this. Had they decided to prepare a whole 2.32 pm new set of papers, devoting a great deal of energy and Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): I resources on the matter, as the previous Government welcome my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough did with their eurozone entry team, which cost millions (Nicky Morgan) to her new post as Financial Secretary. of pounds and went on running for years, they would It is an enormous pleasure to see her there and one of be buying into stages 1 and 2 of convergence for entering the great outcomes of the recent reshuffle. I also thank the euro. By simply sending the rather splendidly recycled— her for her courtesy to this House, which has not always not just 75% but 100% of the fibre in this document has been achieved by her predecessors, for holding this been recycled—to the European Union, it shows our debate before the documents have been given to Brussels, deep suspicion of the whole process. In the reading of which is an improvement. There was no suggestion on the documents, I could find only two references to this occasion that the matter be debated in a Committee; performance against EU targets and convergence: on it has come straight to the Floor of the House. I am page 22, which runs to a mere three lines, and in the grateful for that as it is important that this House has chapter headed “Excessive deficit procedure” on page 53. the ability to discuss such matters properly. I am pleased that the Government are taking an I apologise for the other members of the European approach of saying, “This is what we understand is Scrutiny Committee, who are meeting at this time. My happening with the British economy. You,the European hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash), the Commission, can have it, look at it and chew it over, but Chairman of that Committee, can achieve many things, we are not running our economic policy in accordance but unlike Padre Pio, that noted saint, he is unable to with the convergence criteria.” I was reassured by the manage bilocation. No doubt, in a few years’ time, he Minister’s comments that our policy is not determined will be able to achieve the ability to be in two places by the requirements of convergence, and thank heavens at once. for that. The convergence criteria have been at the heart of the ruination of European economies. There has Mr Hollobone: Does my hon. Friend think that it is been one crucial thing that the Government have been slightly cheeky or that it is just a matter of coincidence able to do since 2010, which the previous Government that the timetabling for this measure before the House started, and that is to run a loose monetary policy with should coincide exactly with when the European Scrutiny a tight fiscal policy. That has ensured that we have been Committee is sitting? able to get the deficit down without crunching the economy to pieces and without running the risk of a Jacob Rees-Mogg: I think that it is an unfortunate deflationary and elongated depression. That is possible concurrence of atoms. If we had not had a statement only because we have not been aiming to meet the earlier, it would have been possible to fit in both, and convergence criteria in the midst of a credit crunch/ 863 Section 5 of the European 30 APRIL 2014 Section 5 of the European 864 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 depression. We have been able to set our own policy It is worth concluding on the glorious issue of because we have had our own currency and therefore convergence simply by saying that we are so lucky that have not been trying to maintain the exchange rate at we are not converging and that the Government have any particular level. It is notable that, throughout this managed to make policy in this country so much more process, the exchange rate has acted as one of the successfully than our continental friends. For example, crucial automatic stabilisers for the economy. In 2009, the EUROSTAT figures—I shall cite a European body, the sterling-dollar rate bottomed at $1.35 and is now not because I want to but for the sake of consistency, as above $1.65, and that has acted as an automatic stabiliser similar figures are used across the areas covered—show on monetary policy during the process of this downturn— that in 2013 the UK economy grew by 1.7% against all of which has been dependent on our having our own 0.1% growth in the EU as a whole and 0.4% contraction currency, and has allowed both this Government and in the eurozone. According to our own figures from the the previous one to be tighter on the fiscal side than Office for National Statistics, we are now, according to would otherwise have been possible. It has avoided the the quarterly figures, growing almost as fast as China at absolute disaster affecting the eurozone countries, of an annualised rate, which is very encouraging. I never having a tight monetary policy and a tight fiscal policy thought, even with my confidence in the Chancellor at the same point, which has led, in some countries, and his team in the Treasury, that we would manage to riots. to achieve near-Chinese rates of growth under this I am broadly reassured, but there are inevitably some Government—emerging market levels. We also have concerns. As I have mentioned, this is about meeting the much lower unemployment than our continental cousins, convergence criteria that allow us to enter the euro. The and that applies not just to adult unemployment but, European Union has no specific enforcement powers, most importantly, to youth unemployment. but there are certain commitments that we have made. Let us hope that we do not converge but continue to We are obliged, as are other EU member states not in diverge from the failures that the eurozone has inflicted the euro, to submit a convergence programme focused on itself, to maintain our independent economic policy, on the national fiscal policy. From 2011, EU legislation to have an economic policy that thrives and succeeds on economic governance introduced a new obligation because Her Majesty’s Government know what they are on member states, including the United Kingdom, to doing, unlike their predecessor, and can therefore boldly take due account of EU guidance issued to them in the and with confidence send these statements to the European development of their economic, employment and budgetary Commission and say to Señor Barroso and all the rest policies before taking key decisions on their national of them, “If only you had the sense to do what my right budgets for the succeeding years, and progress will be hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer is doing, monitored by the Commission. you, too, might grow as well.”

Ian Swales: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving 2.43 pm way, and he is making a characteristically interesting speech. Presumably one of the enforcement options Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): It open to the EU if we do not meet the criteria is not to is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for allow us to join the euro. Will he enlighten us on North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) in a debate on whether, through his studies, he has come across any Europe. I tend to agree with his analysis of and almost other enforcement procedures that might be brought everything he says on Europe, but, fortunately, I do not into play if we do not meet the convergence criteria? agree with his analysis of the British economy. It gives me an almost unique pleasure to be able to vote with my Jacob Rees-Mogg: It is always difficult to know what own party on a European resolution, which I have not action can be taken until action has been taken and done for some time, and I was surprised and pleased until the European Court of Justice has adjudicated on when the Opposition tabled the amendment. whether that action is legitimate. Obviously, the hon. First, it is also not unique for a Minister to come to Gentleman’s point that we could be prevented from this Chamber with almost nothing new to say, but it is joining the euro is brilliant and I am impressed that the unusual, to say the least, for the Minister to explain to Liberal Democrats are so keen to prevent us joining the the House that she has nothing new to say. There is a euro that they would like legal action to be brought by reason for that. The House is expected to report on the European Union to prevent that. the Budget and what we are doing financially to the My warning is not so much that I can see a specific European Union. In one sense one might take the rise threat coming down the track, as the hon. Member for out of that and have a little joke about it, as we are just Birmingham, Ladywood said. There were a lot of tracks sending the documents that we have already produced in the hon. Lady’s speech, and I wondered whether to the European Union and to Brussels, but we must she was confused with Monday’s debate about the remember that the European Union is a thin-end-of- Government’s production of a lot of extra track in one the-wedge organisation. If it cannot get what it wants direction or another. There is always a problem if immediately, it will concede a little. It will say that as it Governments commit themselves to things that they cannot control our budgets, which it would like to do as have no intention of doing. At some later date a body it wants to create a much more centralised European comes back and says, “Actually, you agreed in 2011 that Union, we should send it the details of them. Initially, the European Commission would have the right to that happened under the guise of looking for convergence challenge you on how you were developing your fiscal since the euro was created just over 10 years ago. For and employment policies. That is not being done, so we a House that believes and should believe in its want you to put your house in order.” Then we reach sovereignty, there is danger in that process even if the question of what action can be taken to enforce nothing is being added to what is being given to the that. European Union. 865 Section 5 of the European 30 APRIL 2014 Section 5 of the European 866 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 [Graham Stringer] Graham Stringer: Yes. The hon. Gentleman makes a pertinent point. My second point is the obverse of the point made by I had finished what I wanted to say about the EU, the the hon. Member for North East Somerset. We certainly eurozone and the process. I just want to make three do not want to converge with the European Union, quick points about the Minister’s statement and the because the euro has been the biggest machine for points raised earlier in the debate. First, the Minister destroying jobs in Europe since the 1930s. It has been a said that the Prime Minister had achieved a reduction complete and total disaster. It is not just a matter of our in the European budget. If my memory is correct, the not wanting to converge with the euro and the rest of Prime Minister negotiated a reduction in an increased the European Union. There is still an insistence within budget but with actually increased expenditure in European the eurozone on convergence and trying to converge is a budgets. I should be grateful if the Minister checked disaster for the countries inside the zone and for the and corrected that fault. United Kingdom, because we want to trade with a Secondly, to re-emphasise the points that a number of thriving economy. While the euro is there, that economy hon. Members made in their interventions on the Minister, cannot thrive. It is as simple as this. In Germany, the this country would be a lot better off if we did not make euro is simply an undervalued Deutschmark that is our contribution to the European budget. On every helping the German economy to trade around the project, we put twice as much money in as we get back. I world. That is hugely successful and Germany is building might one day promote a private Member’s Bill to say up huge trade surpluses. The rest of the eurozone, that as an alternative to having the 12 EU stars on particularly the Mediterranean regions, is dealing with projects and saying, “What a wonderful project it is!” an overvalued euro that is depressing its economies. there should be a sign that says, “We could have had Without the ability to change exchange rates, those two of these projects if we had not contributed to countries are effectively in a competitive deflationary the EU.” situation and it is very unlikely that they will ever Finally, I should be grateful if the Minister told the be able to pay off their deficits and get into a better House how she intends to protect the rights of the economic situation. The only way they could do that House to decide on taxation if the European Court of is if the German surplus was taken and spent in Justice decides later that it wants to impose a trading Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece, where they have huge tax on the City—a Tobin-type tax, 90% of which would unemployment rates and where there is unemployment be paid in this country and not in the rest of Europe. in what industry is left. It is very difficult—almost impossible—for the eurozone to converge, and that is 2.52 pm bad for those countries and, because we want to trade with them, for this economy. Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): It is a pleasure, If the eurozone had done better since the banking as always, to follow my near neighbour from Greater crisis five or six years ago, this country would not have Manchester, the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton suffered as much as we have. (Graham Stringer). As he and the House are aware, I agree with him on the issue of our membership of the Ian Swales: I am carefully following the hon. Gentleman’s European Union. argument, with which I absolutely agree. I must admit I want to bring the debate back to the motion, which that since I first became a candidate for the Liberal states specifically: Democrats, the policy on the euro was the one policy on “That this House approves, for the purposes of Section 5 of which I disagreed with my party for exactly the reasons the European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993, the Government’s that he is outlining. However, to be positive, does he agree assessment”— that sending these documents to the EU might, in the and so on. I will not read out the whole motion. It is spirit of learning, make it reconsider the errors of its ways? purely for the purposes of complying with section 5 that we are being asked to approve the motion today—purely Graham Stringer: The EU is not only a thin-end-of- to comply with our obligations under European Union the-wedge organisation but absolutely not a learning rules and regulations. I oppose the motion for that organisation. It is ideologically committed to ever-greater reason, as I have in previous years. I oppose it, but not and closer union. It will not listen to arguments, however because I oppose the Government’s financial policies— sensible they are, and however well this economy has or indeed, barely a week goes by without further evidence has not done over the past five or 10 years, and it will to prove that the policies are working. We could debate, not take empirical lessons because its ideology is different as we have earlier this afternoon, whether things are from that. I will not repeat my previous points about going fast enough, and whether they are going as quickly starting the process of this sovereign Parliament’s reporting as someone previously predicted, but I think all that is to the EU. irrelevant. What is relevant is the fact that the economy, Mr Hollobone: I am listening to the hon. Gentleman by any stretch of the imagination, is growing. Things with great interest, and he has evident expertise in are going in the right direction. matters European. Does he share my concern that one I welcome the fact that we have the opportunity to of the problems with our so-called convergence with say that, but I regret the fact that we are having to do it Europe is the impact on our trade deficit with Europe, in the context of submitting documents to the European which, I understand, is large and growing? That might Union. As has been said, this is the very last day for well be partly a consequence of the tremendous economic submission of the documents. I am not sure what would recovery in this country and competitive devaluation happen if—as I very much doubt would be the case—the in Germany, but, given that we are meant to talk about House refused to support the Government’s motion. I convergence today, my concern is about the growing will be voting against it and I would be interested to deficit in trade with our European partners. know what would happen. In last year’s debate, my 867 Section 5 of the European 30 APRIL 2014 Section 5 of the European 868 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset reported that the United Kingdom economy grew by (Jacob Rees-Mogg) mentioned that if the EU does not 1.7% last year, compared with a minuscule 0.1% in the agree that we are carrying out the policies to its satisfaction, rest of the European Union. Even worse, there was a it can send a surveillance mission to the country, or even 0.4% contraction in the economies of the countries an enhanced surveillance mission. If so, I am sure that we within the eurozone. And even that performance figure would have great delight in meeting them, because they is flattered by the fact that it includes the figures for have a lot to learn from what this country is doing. Germany and France, whose economies, EUROSTAT I do not agree that we, as a sovereign nation, should reported, grew by 0.4% and 0.1% respectively. have to submit our economic policies to the bureaucrats The situation is the same for the respective unemployment in Brussels like some naughty schoolboy having to rates. EUROSTAT reports that the unemployment rate report to the headmaster with school work. There is no for the European Union as a whole was 10.8% last year, reason why we should have to go through this annual and the latest figures show that unemployment in the charade. It is an annual occasion when we have to UK for the three months to February was 6.9%. That is approve, purely for the purposes of section 5, these reflected in my constituency. The latest figures show documents. I see no reason why we cannot tag the that in Bury, Ramsbottom and Tottington there are motion on to the end of the Budget motions, for example, 451 fewer unemployed people than there were a year if we want to comply with this ridiculous law. ago, which means 451 more families have the security of a regular wage coming in each week. More new businesses Jacob Rees-Mogg: For once, I disagree with my hon. are being started, business confidence is growing and all Friend. I think it is of immeasurable importance that the signs indicate that the plan is working and we are on this debate remain a specific debate on the Floor of the the road to recovery. House, because there may come a time when the House The rest of Europe ought to be looking at what the wants to refuse to report to Brussels and we need to UK is doing and working out how they can adopt preserve that right. our Government’s policies and increase their growth rates. As the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton Mr Nuttall: I entirely agree on that point with my said, we want our European neighbours’ economies to hon. Friend. If I had my way, we would disagree with grow, because they are important trading nations, as I Europe quite a bit more often than we do. I oppose the never fail to accept. The fact that I want us to leave the motion for that reason and no other, because I do not European Union does not mean that I do not want think we should send these documents to Europe. As I us to trade with it; I just do not think that we have said in previous years, and will probably repeat should have to pay a net contribution of £9 billion to later in my speech, if the European officials are so have the privilege of doing so. It is simply unnecessary, interested in our documents, they are all available online. because we trade with many other countries around There is no reason why we need to produce this document. the world without having to pay a membership fee to For all that has been said about the fact that we have enable us to do so. Therefore, I do not believe that not spent any time on this subject, we do have before us submitting a 247-page convergence programme document a new document entitled “2013-14 Convergence Programme is necessary. for the United Kingdom.” It is 247 pages long—slightly In conclusion, let me put two simple questions to my larger than last year’s document. It has been produced hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Nicky by Her Majesty’s Treasury specifically for this purpose Morgan), whom I warmly welcome to her new role and no other. So somewhere along the line the requirement as Financial Secretary to the Treasury. First, what to produce the document is costing the British taxpayer response has the Government received from the European money. Union on last year’s submission? Did we receive any We must be clear that the sole reason why the UK is acknowledgement from the bureaucrats in Brussels? making this submission—I quote from the treaty on the Did they tell us that we were doing a good job and that functioning of the European Union—is: they would use our document as a model for economic success? Did they say that they would encourage our “In order to ensure closer coordination of economic policies partners to accept some of the policies set out in our and sustained convergence of the economic performances of the Member States”. convergence programme document? Why does the treaty require that? Simply because it is Secondly, and perhaps more importantly—in view of all part of their grand plan to forge together a single the Prime Minister’s declared aim of putting an end to country called the European Union. That is what they the commitment, which we are presently signed up to, want to see. That is why they want to have these to ever-closer union with the rest of Europe—will my documents sent in to them. hon. Friend confirm that, as part of any renegotiation of the United Kingdom’s obligations to the rest of We are fortunate in this country that the UK Europe, the obligation to submit this annual convergence electorate—the British people—had the good sense at programme document will be removed? Does she agree the last general election to elect a Conservative-led that not removing that obligation will be seen as clear Government with a Conservative Chancellor of the proof that those renegotiations have failed? Exchequer, who was prepared to take the difficult decisions necessary to put our country back on the path of 3.3 pm economic recovery, which means living within our means. Nicky Morgan: I thank all hon. Members who have It is instructive to compare the progress that we have contributed to this extremely interesting debate. I will made, and continue to make, with that of the European deal briefly with some of the points that have been Union. As my hon. Friend the Member for North East raised. I hope to address all of them, but if I do not I Somerset mentioned, the European Union’s own official will obviously be happy to discuss them afterwards and statistics body—interestingly named EUROSTAT— to try to answer any further questions. 869 Section 5 of the European 30 APRIL 2014 Section 5 of the European 870 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 [Nicky Morgan] The hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton set out his unhappiness with the process. I understand what I thank the shadow Minister for welcoming me to my he was saying. He also mentioned the impact of the new post. She is absolutely right that we will be seeing a eurozone crisis on our economy over the past few years, lot of each other over the next few weeks as we deliberate which was important, and I am glad that he did so. He the Finance Bill upstairs in the Committee Room. What asked two specific questions. On the multi-annual financial I think was most interesting about her speech was that, framework, the Prime Minister agreed a real-terms cut rather like the Leader of the Opposition’s response to in the payment ceiling to ¤908.4 billion, which is ¤80 billion the Budget statement, it did not mention the EU very lower than the Commission’s original proposal, ¤35 billion much at all. She went through the Opposition’s views on lower than the 2007-2013 multi-annual financial framework the Government’s economic policy, but I must say that I and ¤24 billion below a real-terms freeze on the last did not detect any signs of their own economic policy, completed budget in 2012. That is why I could make my which appears to be missing. That was interesting, given remarks about the Prime Minister’s achievements in that the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton negotiating a real-terms cut in the multi-annual financial (Graham Stringer) did mention the EU—I will mention framework. his speech in a moment. The hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton also It is extraordinary that the Opposition, having previously mentioned the financial transaction tax, and we have claimed that there would be no recovery, that any heard the news today from the European Court of recovery would be choked off and that we would have Justice. Let me set out that the UK will not be joining 1 million more unemployed people, are now saying that the enhanced co-operation financial transaction tax. the recovery is too slow. No doubt they will move on to Today’s judgment confirmed that the UK can challenge another form of criticism in due course. However, I am the final proposal for a financial transaction tax if it is pleased that the hon. Lady did at least welcome yesterday’s not in our national interest and undermines the integrity figures on GDP growth, which are significant. As I said of the single market. Today’s announcement also confirms in my opening remarks, they show that the economy is that the UK can challenge the eventual implementation growing and that we have momentum, but the job is not if necessary without running the risk of the challenge yet done. being too late. We needed to make an early challenge in Mr Hollobone: My hon. Friend is being far too modest order to set out our stall for later negotiations for a —hiding her lamp under a bushel—because her own financial transaction tax should they prove to be publication clearly states: disadvantageous to the UK. “Since early 2010, the pace of net employment creation has My hon. Friend the Member for Bury North been 3 times as fast as over the same period in previous recessions (Mr Nuttall) set out in his characteristically forthright and recoveries” style that he fundamentally disagrees with the whole since 1973. process, which I fully respect. I am, however, sorry that Nicky Morgan: I thank my hon. Friend for reading he will not be joining us in the Lobby this afternoon. He the document assiduously and quoting from it. Yesterday’s will understand that we are currently part of a treaty figures are a positive step, and the employment figures that requires us to submit this convergence programme, are very encouraging. As we know from the note left by and I explained to him following his earlier intervention the last Chief Secretary to the Treasury under the why we wanted to submit a final document, rather than previous Government, there was no money left, because the draft that has been submitted in previous years. they had spent it all. This Government have had quite a My hon. Friend also asked about last year’s response task to rebalance our economy and fix the deficit. from the EU. There was a response and I sent the The shadow Minister mentioned the Budget’s focus European Scrutiny Committee an explanatory memorandum on savers. Let me tell her that millions of basic rate about that. He also asked about renegotiation, and I taxpayers are savers, because she somehow dismissed take note of what he said. We clearly will not be setting them by saying that we are not talking about households. out a negotiating stance at present, but I draw his I do not know where she thinks savers live, but they attention to the recent article written by my right hon. form their own households. As my right hon. Friend the Friend the Prime Minister in The Sunday Telegraph—I Chancellor said, we are on the side of savers and do not have the exact date, but it was certainly within the hard-working people of all types. She also mentioned past month or so—in which he set out some key areas the savings ratio. The latest OBR forecast shows that for renegotiation. He talked about: the savings ratio will be around 4% over the next two “Powers flowing away from Brussels, not always to it”, years, which is still well above the pre-recession low of and about 0.2%. I honestly do not know how she has the nerve to criticise the ratio when people are still saving more in “National parliaments able to work together to block unwanted European legislation.” this country. Let me move on to the characteristically eloquent I hope that all of that is music to the ears of my hon. speech from my hon. Friend the Member for North Friend the Member for Bury North. As he would East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), which showed his expect, further announcements will be made in due expert understanding. I was delighted not only that he course. could be here for the debate, but that he supports the Following this debate and Parliament’s approval, the Government’s approach. I have taken his comments Government will inform the European Commission of on board, but I am glad that he can support the their assessment of the UK’s medium-term economic announcements my right hon. Friend the Chancellor and budgetary position. The convergence programme made on recent fiscal events and this document. That is will be submitted later today, which is a legal requirement very important. under the EU’s stability and growth pact. The Government 871 Section 5 of the European 30 APRIL 2014 Section 5 of the European 872 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 of course take legal requirements seriously. At the same Drax, Richard Kelly, Chris time, however, I reiterate to hon. Members that, as in Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Kennedy, rh Mr Charles previous years, the document is based entirely on previously Dunne, Mr Philip Kirby, Simon published documents that have already been presented Ellis, Michael Knight, rh Sir Greg to Parliament. The submission of convergence programmes Ellwood, Mr Tobias Lancaster, Mark by euro-outs and stability programmes by euro area Elphicke, Charlie Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Evans, Graham Latham, Pauline member states provides a framework for co-ordinating Evans, Jonathan Laws, rh Mr David fiscal policies. As I said, a degree of fiscal policy Evans, Mr Nigel Leadsom, Andrea co-ordination across countries can be beneficial to ensure Evennett, Mr David Lee, Dr Phillip a stable global economy, which is in the UK’s national Fabricant, Michael Lefroy, Jeremy interest. It is important that we continue to use the Fallon, rh Michael Leigh, Sir Edward European semester process to encourage member states Farron, Tim Leslie, Charlotte to take national decisions on structural reform and Featherstone, Lynne Letwin, rh Mr Oliver growth that will help to support the European economy. Field, Mark Lewis, Brandon Budget 2014 set out the next steps in the Government’s Foster, rh Mr Don Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian long-term economic plan to secure the recovery and Fox,rhDrLiam Lloyd, Stephen Freeman, George Lopresti, Jack build a resilient economy, which requires tough decisions Freer, Mike Loughton, Tim to put the public finances on a sustainable path. Budget Fullbrook, Lorraine Luff, Sir Peter 2014 supports businesses to invest, to export and to Fuller, Richard Lumley, Karen create jobs and cuts taxes for hard-working people. Gale, Sir Roger Macleod, Mary There is much still to do, however, and the Government Garnier, Sir Edward Main, Mrs Anne are not complacent. Garnier, Mark Maude, rh Mr Francis Ultimately, sustainable growth is the only way for George, Andrew May, rh Mrs Theresa both the UK and other EU member states to pay down Gibb, Mr Nick Maynard, Paul their debts and to exit the current difficult economic Gilbert, Stephen McCartney, Jason Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl McCartney, Karl times. The UK Government are leading the EU growth Glen, John McIntosh, Miss Anne agenda and making the case for ambitious EU reform. Goldsmith, Zac McPartland, Stephen On that basis, I am pleased to commend the motion to Goodwill, Mr Robert McVey, rh Esther the House. Gove, rh Michael Menzies, Mark Question put. Graham, Richard Metcalfe, Stephen Gray, Mr James Miller, rh Maria The House divided: Ayes 288, Noes 235. Grayling, rh Chris Mills, Nigel Division No. 257] [3.13 pm Green, rh Damian Milton, Anne Halfon, Robert Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew AYES Hames, Duncan Moore, rh Michael Hammond, rh Mr Philip Mordaunt, Penny Adams, Nigel Burns, Conor Hammond, Stephen Morgan, Nicky Afriyie, Adam Burns, rh Mr Simon Hancock, Matthew Morris, David Aldous, Peter Burrowes, Mr David Hands, rh Greg Morris, James Amess, Mr David Burstow, rh Paul Harper, Mr Mark Mosley, Stephen Andrew, Stuart Burt, rh Alistair Harris, Rebecca Mowat, David Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Burt, Lorely Hart, Simon Mulholland, Greg Bacon, Mr Richard Byles, Dan Harvey, Sir Nick Murray, Sheryll Baker, Steve Cable, rh Vince Hayes, rh Mr John Murrison, Dr Andrew Baldry, rh Sir Tony Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Heald, Oliver Neill, Robert Baldwin, Harriett Carmichael, Neil Heath, Mr David Newton, Sarah Barclay, Stephen Cash, Mr William Heaton-Harris, Chris Nokes, Caroline Barker, rh Gregory Chishti, Rehman Hemming, John Norman, Jesse Barwell, Gavin Chope, Mr Christopher Hendry, Charles O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Bebb, Guto Clappison, Mr James Hinds, Damian Offord, Dr Matthew Beith, rh Sir Alan Clark, rh Greg Hoban, Mr Mark Ollerenshaw, Eric Bellingham, Mr Henry Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Holloway, Mr Adam Opperman, Guy Beresford, Sir Paul Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hopkins, Kris Osborne, rh Mr George Berry, Jake Coffey, Dr Thérèse Horwood, Martin Ottaway, rh Sir Richard Bingham, Andrew Collins, Damian Howarth, Sir Gerald Parish, Neil Binley, Mr Brian Colvile, Oliver Howell, John Patel, Priti Blackman, Bob Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hughes, rh Simon Pawsey, Mark Blackwood, Nicola Crabb, Stephen Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Penrose, John Blunt, Crispin Crockart, Mike Huppert, Dr Julian Percy, Andrew Boles, Nick Crouch, Tracey Hurd, Mr Nick Perry, Claire Bradley, Karen Davies, David T. C. Brady, Mr Graham (Monmouth) Jackson, Mr Stewart Phillips, Stephen Brake, rh Tom Davies, Glyn James, Margot Pickles, rh Mr Eric Bray, Angie Davis, rh Mr David Javid, Sajid Pincher, Christopher Bridgen, Andrew de Bois, Nick Jenkin, Mr Bernard Prisk, Mr Mark Brine, Steve Dinenage, Caroline Johnson, Gareth Pritchard, Mark Brokenshire, James Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Johnson, Joseph Pugh, John Bruce, Fiona Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Jones, Andrew Raab, Mr Dominic Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Dorries, Nadine Jones, rh Mr David Randall, rh Sir John Buckland, Mr Robert Doyle-Price, Jackie Jones, Mr Marcus Redwood, rh Mr John 873 Section 5 of the European 30 APRIL 2014 Section 5 of the European 874 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Rees-Mogg, Jacob Timpson, Mr Edward Dobbin, Jim Lammy, rh Mr David Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Tomlinson, Justin Docherty, Thomas Lavery, Ian Robertson, rh Hugh Truss, Elizabeth Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Lazarowicz, Mark Robertson, Mr Laurence Turner, Mr Andrew Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Leslie, Chris Rogerson, Dan Tyrie, Mr Andrew Doran, Mr Frank Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Rosindell, Andrew Uppal, Paul Doughty, Stephen Lewis, Dr Julian Rudd, Amber Vara, Mr Shailesh Dowd, Jim Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Ruffley, Mr David Vickers, Martin Doyle, Gemma Love, Mr Andrew Rutley, David Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Dugher, Michael Lucas, Caroline Sandys, Laura Walker, Mr Charles Durkan, Mark Lucas, Ian Scott, Mr Lee Walker, Mr Robin Eagle, Ms Angela MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Selous, Andrew Wallace, Mr Ben Edwards, Jonathan Mactaggart, Fiona Shapps, rh Grant Walter, Mr Robert Efford, Clive Mahmood, Mr Khalid Elliott, Julie Mahmood, Shabana Sharma, Alok Ward, Mr David Shelbrooke, Alec Ellman, Mrs Louise Malhotra, Seema Watkinson, Dame Angela Simpson, Mr Keith Engel, Natascha Mann, John Weatherley, Mike Skidmore, Chris Esterson, Bill Marsden, Mr Gordon Webb, Steve Smith, Chloe Evans, Chris McCann, Mr Michael Wharton, James Smith, Henry Farrelly, Paul McCarthy, Kerry Smith, Julian Wheeler, Heather Field, rh Mr Frank McClymont, Gregg Soames, rh Nicholas White, Chris Flello, Robert McCrea, Dr William Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Whittaker, Craig Flint, rh Caroline McDonagh, Siobhain Spencer, Mr Mark Whittingdale, Mr John Flynn, Paul McDonald, Andy Stanley, rh Sir John Wiggin, Bill Fovargue, Yvonne McDonnell, John Stevenson, John Willetts, rh Mr David Francis, Dr Hywel McFadden, rh Mr Pat Stewart, Bob Williams, Mr Mark Gardiner, Barry McGovern, Alison Stewart, Iain Williams, Roger Gilmore, Sheila McGovern, Jim Stewart, Rory Williams, Stephen Glass, Pat McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Streeter, Mr Gary Williamson, Gavin Glindon, Mrs Mary McKechin, Ann Stride, Mel Willott, Jenny Goodman, Helen McKenzie, Mr Iain Stuart, Mr Graham Wilson, Mr Rob Greatrex, Tom McKinnell, Catherine Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Wollaston, Dr Sarah Green, Kate Meale, Sir Alan Sturdy, Julian Wright, Jeremy Greenwood, Lilian Mearns, Ian Swales, Ian Wright, Simon Griffith, Nia Miller, Andrew Hain, rh Mr Peter Mitchell, Austin Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Yeo, Mr Tim Swire, rh Mr Hugo Hamilton, Mr David Moon, Mrs Madeleine Young, rh Sir George Syms, Mr Robert Hamilton, Fabian Morden, Jessica Zahawi, Nadhim Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Hanson, rh Mr David Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Teather, Sarah Tellers for the Ayes: Harman, rh Ms Harriet Morris, Grahame M. Thornton, Mike Mr Sam Gyimah and Harris, Mr Tom (Easington) Thurso, John Mark Hunter Havard, Mr Dai Munn, Meg Healey, rh John Murphy, rh Paul NOES Hendrick, Mark Nandy, Lisa Hepburn, Mr Stephen Nash, Pamela Abbott, Ms Diane Buck, Ms Karen Hermon, Lady Nuttall, Mr David Abrahams, Debbie Burden, Richard Heyes, David O’Donnell, Fiona Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hillier, Meg Onwurah, Chi Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Campbell, rh Mr Alan Hilling, Julie Osborne, Sandra Alexander, Heidi Campbell, Mr Gregory Hodge, rh Margaret Owen, Albert Ali, Rushanara Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Paisley, Ian Allen, Mr Graham Caton, Martin Hoey, Kate Pearce, Teresa Ashworth, Jonathan Champion, Sarah Hollobone, Mr Philip Perkins, Toby Austin, Ian Chapman, Jenny Hood, Mr Jim Qureshi, Yasmin Bailey, Mr Adrian Clark, Katy Hopkins, Kelvin Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Bain, Mr William Clarke, rh Mr Tom Howarth, rh Mr George Reed, Mr Jamie Balls, rh Ed Coaker, Vernon Hunt, Tristram Reed, Mr Steve Banks, Gordon Coffey, Ann Irranca-Davies, Huw Reeves, Rachel Barron, rh Kevin Connarty, Michael Jackson, Glenda Reynolds, Jonathan Begg, Dame Anne Cooper, Rosie James, Mrs Siân C. Robertson, Angus Benn, rh Hilary Cooper, rh Yvette Jamieson, Cathy Robertson, John Benton, Mr Joe Corbyn, Jeremy Jarvis, Dan Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Berger, Luciana Creagh, Mary Johnson, Diana Roy, Mr Frank Betts, Mr Clive Creasy, Stella Jones, Graham Roy, Lindsay Blears, rh Hazel Cryer, John Jones, Helen Ruane, Chris Blomfield, Paul Cunningham, Alex Jones, Mr Kevan Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Blunkett, rh Mr David Cunningham, Mr Jim Jones, Susan Elan Sarwar, Anas Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Cunningham, Sir Tony Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Sawford, Andy Brennan, Kevin Danczuk, Simon Kane, Mike Seabeck, Alison Brown, Lyn Davidson, Mr Ian Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Shannon, Jim Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Davies, Geraint Keeley, Barbara Sharma, Mr Virendra Brown, Mr Russell Davies, Philip Kendall, Liz Sheerman, Mr Barry Bryant, Chris De Piero, Gloria Khan, rh Sadiq Sheridan, Jim 875 Section 5 of the European 30 APRIL 2014 876 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Shuker, Gavin Vaz, Valerie Wales Bill Simpson, David Walley, Joan Skinner, Mr Dennis Watson, Mr Tom Considered in Committee Slaughter, Mr Andy Watts, Mr Dave Smith, rh Mr Andrew Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Smith, Angela Whitehead, Dr Alan [DAWN PRIMAROLO) in the Chair] Smith, Nick Williams, Hywel Smith, Owen Williamson, Chris Clause 1 Spellar, rh Mr John Wilson, Phil Straw, rh Mr Jack Winnick, Mr David FREQUENCY OF ASSEMBLY ORDINARY GENERAL Stringer, Graham Winterton, rh Ms Rosie ELECTIONS Stuart, Ms Gisela Wishart, Pete Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Wood, Mike Tami, Mark Woodward, rh Mr Shaun 3.28 pm Thomas, Mr Gareth Wright, David Timms, rh Stephen Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): I beg to move Wright, Mr Iain Trickett, Jon amendment 9, page 1, line 5, leave out subsection (1) Turner, Karl Tellers for the Noes: and insert— Umunna, Mr Chuka Bridget Phillipson and ‘(1) GOWA 2006 is amended as follows. Vaz, rh Keith Nic Dakin (2) Leave out subsection 3(1) and insert in substitution— “( ) The poll at an election to the National Assembly for Wales Question accordingly agreed to. is to be held on a Thursday on a date to be determined by a Resolved, Resolution of the National Assembly for Wales.”. That this House approves, for the purposes of Section 5 of the ( ) Subsection 3(2) is amended by— European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993, the Government’s (a) leaving out “If the poll is to be held on the first assessment as set out in Budget 2014 and Autumn Statement Thursday in May”; and 2013, combined with the Office for Budget Responsibility’s Economic (b) in paragraph 2(a) by leaving out “that day” and inserting and Fiscal Outlook (2014) and Fiscal Sustainability Report (2013), “polling day”. which forms the basis of the United Kingdom’s Convergence ( ) Leave out sections 4 and 5. Programme. ( ) Section 13 is amended by inserting after subsection (1)(c)— “(1A) The order may not include provision about the date of WALES BILL (PROGRAMME) (NO. 2) an election to the Assembly.”.’. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)), The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means That the Order of 31 March 2014 (Wales Bill (Programme)) be (Dawn Primarolo): With this it will be convenient to varied as follows: discuss the following: In the Table in paragraph (4) of the Order, in the column Amendment 30, page 1, line 6, at end insert ‘and after headed ‘Time for conclusion of proceedings’, for ‘The moment of the words “order under”, insert ‘section 1A or’. interruption on the first day’ substitute ‘Ninety minutes after the Amendment 10, page 1, line 8, at end add— moment of interruption on the first day’.—(Stephen Crabb.) Question agreed to. ‘(3) A Resolution of the National Assembly for Wales under subsection (1) may not determine a date for the poll at an election to the Assembly that is the same as the date known or reasonably expected for a parliamentary general election as derived from the provisions of the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011.’. Amendment 31, page 1, line 8, at end add— ‘(3) After section 3(1) of the GOWA 2006 insert— (1A) A poll for an ordinary general election to the National Assembly for Wales may not be held within six months of the date of a general election to the United Kingdom Parliament.”.’. Clause stand part.

Owen Smith: It is a pleasure to serve under your Bristolian and neighbourly chairmanship, Ms Primarolo. Clause 1 relates to the timing of elections to the National Assembly for Wales. It is a response to the five-year term that has now been established for elections to this House. Our amendments 9 and 10 are probing amendments that seek to explore the Government’s willingness to concede the principle that the Assembly needs to have greater control and command over elections to it. That is what we are testing with our amendments.

Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): I am pleased the hon. Gentleman said that these were probing amendments, but I notice that he has not troubled the Committee with an explanatory note, which is 877 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 878

[Mr Mark Harper] manifestos, including the last manifesto, Labour has consistently pledged to shift to fixed-term Parliaments, disappointing. My reading of the amendment is that it but we have consistently said that a five-year fixed term removes any necessity for an election to be held to the for any institution was too long. National Assembly. It allows the National Assembly for Wales to have no more elections ever. It appears to be Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con): I am grateful the “Labour doesn’t want to have an election ever again to the hon. Gentleman for the tone with which he in Wales” amendment. started his speech. Will he explain the rationale for his sticking with a Thursday? Since he is aiming to give 3.30 pm responsibility to the National Assembly and to let it decide the issue entirely, why does he say that the poll Owen Smith: I hoped that we would have a serious should be held on a Thursday? He will be aware of a debate today and serious interventions from colleagues growing body of opinion among those who undertake across the Chamber. Obviously it is not the intention or electoral research, who look to examples on the continent, the effect of the amendment to get rid of elections to where elections are held at weekends—traditionally on the National Assembly for Wales, not least because we Sundays—or opportunities when people may be able to want those elections not to coincide with the changes participate more in the electoral process. Perhaps he can made in the House by the hon. Gentleman when he was help us to understand why, since he is putting the pushing through the gerrymandering legislation relating proposition that it is entirely a matter for the National to elections to the House and the five-year term that we Assembly, he has restricted polling day to a Thursday. now endure. “Endure” is the right word, given how little business is being brought forward by the Government Owen Smith: It is a great pleasure to serve under your and how little work we have to do in the House. Today chairmanship, Dr McCrea. I had not spotted that you we have an important and serious Bill before us and I had arrived, for which I apologise. hope the hon. Gentleman will engage with it in a serious manner. The simple answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question is that this is, of course, the custom, practice and Mr Harper: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? protocol in British elections for all institutions. I hear what he says about the interesting debate about whether, Owen Smith: No. We all want to get on with the in an era of great cynicism towards and disinterest in serious business before the Committee, not nonsensical and disengagement from politics, we ought to expand point-scoring. people’s opportunities to vote. Labour Members are These are probing amendments. They explore the looking seriously at that and have already suggested extent to which the Government agree with us that, in that it ought to be looked at, but for the purposes of principle, it should be with the consent of the National this Bill and the principle under discussion, as opposed Assembly that changes are made to elections that affect it. to the issue raised by the hon. Gentleman, it seemed simpler to stick to the customary practice of a Thursday. Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): I, too, am That is why we did not suggest a change. glad that these are probing amendments. I very much agree with the principle that the hon. Gentleman is Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): Perhaps the establishing that these responsibilities should be devolved hon. Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans) will to the National Assembly, but what safeguards does he have an opportunity to table a probing amendment on envisage operating there to ensure that gerrymandering, that issue. Why does the Bill refer to five years? I of which he has, sadly, accused the Government, could understand that that is how this Parliament currently not occur in the National Assembly? operates, but is there now an accepted body of wisdom that says that five years should be the default position Owen Smith: The clear principle to which we are of any democratic Assembly or Parliament? responding with these amendments was outlined by the Welsh Government in their response to the Green Paper Owen Smith: The reality is that the accepted, orthodox produced two years ago. For the information of the wisdom of electoral experts around the world, certainly Committee, that stated that in Britain, is that five years is probably too long and “no change to the Assembly’s current electoral arrangements that four years would be more appropriate. Certainly in should be made without the Assembly’s consent. This is the the history of this place, four years has been not the fundamental constitutional principle in issue. It is a necessary norm, but the exception. Ordinarily, over the long term, consequence of a constitution based upon the principle of devolution.” elections to this place have taken place rather more That is a clear expression from the Welsh Government frequently than that. Our primary concern—this reflects on the centrality of their view in any changes to legislation the view of all parties in the National Assembly for which affect the elections to their Chamber—to the Wales, particularly the Welsh Labour Government—was Assembly in Wales. That is something we wish to explore to ensure that the elections for this House and those for today with the Government. the National Assembly did not coincide on the same Clearly, the Bill arises from the shift to a five-year day, which would have been the case without the changes fixed-term Parliament for this place. Three separate introduced by this Bill. Nevertheless, it struck us as pieces of legislation needed to be amended as a important to probe the Government’s view of the degree consequence—the Scotland Act 1998, the Northern of consent they ought to seek from the National Assembly Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2014, and now and the respect they ought to show to devolution when the Government of Wales Act 1998. Labour is not making changes to an election that is not ours. I think opposed to fixed-term Parliaments, as the hon. Member that the view of most people—it is certainly the view of for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) will recall. In previous most experts—is that five years is too long. 879 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 880

Mr Harper: On Second Reading, the hon. Gentleman “at an election to the National Assembly for Wales is to be held responded to a question asked by, I think, the hon. on a Thursday on a date to be determined by a Resolution of the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) by kind of giving National Assembly for Wales.” the impression that Labour’s policy, if it were returned That does not leave in the legislation any requirement to power, would be to revert to a four-year term for this for a periodic election. If the amendment were put into House and amend the Fixed-term Parliament Act 2011. law and the National Assembly for Wales did not set a Will the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith), date for an election, there would never be such an for the convenience of the Committee, confirm that? election. An accurate characterisation of his amendment is that it is a “Labour party governs Wales for ever” Owen Smith: The hon. Gentleman claims that I implied amendment. Under his provision, if any party with a that, but I do not think I have been explicit on the majority in the National Assembly for Wales simply matter, either then or now. When we last debated the does not set a date, there will be no election, and no issue, we were clear that the majority opinion is that back-stop in legislation would insist on an election. I four years is better than five. Another orthodox opinion absolutely accept that that may not have been the hon. in Britain and elsewhere is that too many changes to Gentleman’s intention, but that is the effect of his constitutional matters are bad for the electorate and amendment. that constantly chopping and changing for partisan reasons—as the hon. Gentleman did when introducing Owen Smith: As I have said, that effect was not our the 2011 Act—is bad for democracy in Britain. In the intention. I will not repeat myself, but I will say that light of that, and in a period in which people are were it our intention to stop more elections to the disengaged from politics, we may choose not be partisan National Assembly for Wales, that would be a pretty and not to pursue that sort of strategy when we win the peculiar thing for us to do because although we currently next election. govern as a minority Government in Wales, we of course anticipate governing as a majority Government Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): I want to refer to the in Wales in the near future. I look forward to more point made by the hon. Member for Cardiff North elections in Wales, especially given the polls showing (Jonathan Evans). There is a great deal of virtue in that both the hon. Gentleman’s party and the Liberal considering holding elections on days other than a Democrats are failing badly. Thursday. That is the practice in other countries. Perhaps the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) can help the Committee with his historical knowledge: have Mr Harper: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for elections in the UK always been held on Thursdays? I confirming that that effect was not the intention of his seem to remember that at some point in our history amendment. However, as I have said, that would be its they were not. effect, and the Committee obviously has to consider the amendment on the amendment paper—the one he drafted and tabled—not one that he probably now wishes he Owen Smith: I believe that the hon. Gentleman is had drafted. As I have said, it is not sensible to give the right. Elections have not always been held on a Thursday. National Assembly for Wales the power to do exactly However, in recent memory and certainly in the last what the amendment suggests, which is to have no century, elections have mainly been held on a Thursday, back-stop at all. which is why we are sticking to it in amendment 9. That is not the substantive point that we are trying to make; I am now even more confused about the Labour it is an interesting debating point, but not one that we party’s policy on term limits. The hon. Gentleman is need to bother the Committee with any longer. quite right that, during the passage of the Fixed-term With that, I conclude my remarks on our amendments Parliaments Bill, his party did not disagree with the to clause 1. We do not intend to put them to the vote, concept of fixed terms. It was very clear that it did not but we want to hear the Government’s views on the support five-year terms, but preferred four-year terms. need for them to engage properly with, seek proper On Second Reading just a few weeks ago, he made it consent from and pay proper respect to the devolved clear in response to the hon. Member for Rhondda Administration in Cardiff. (Chris Bryant) that he wanted to move to four-year terms. I suggested that the hon. Member for Pontypridd ought perhaps to have a word with his party leader, Mr Harper: It is a great pleasure to serve under your and it sounds from his slightly more nuanced response chairmanship, Dr McCrea. that he has had such a conversation and been told I want to pick up the hon. Member for Pontypridd that under no circumstances is he to pledge moving (Owen Smith) on his response to my intervention. I was back to four-year terms. That probably also provides an deadly serious. If he wants to intervene, I will happily answer to the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca- take his intervention, but I am afraid that his amendment Davies). would do exactly what I said it would do. It would I will not say any more about the amendments of the amend section 3(1) of the Government of Wales Act 2006, hon. Member for Pontypridd, which he has confirmed which states that a poll are probing amendments, but I want to comment on “at an ordinary general election is to be held on the first Thursday Plaid Cymru’s amendments 30 and 31, specifically in May in the fourth calendar year following” amendment 31. They highlight an important issue, which the previous one. In other words, the provision insists is one for the Committee to debate, about the coincidence that there has to be an election every four years. His and of elections. We discussed that when we debated the his hon. Friends’ amendment would remove section 3(1) Fixed-term Parliaments Bill, and it was one reason why of Government of Wales Act and simply provide that I, as the then responsible Minister, decided to move the the poll date of the National Assembly for Wales election. 881 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 882

3.45 pm which we will return to on the second day of Committee, There are two schools of thought on this matter. The is that the Welsh public might reach a different conclusion first is that elections should be separated so that the from that put forward by the hon. Member for Pontypridd. debate on the issues that face the United Kingdom can I look forward to their having the opportunity to do so take place and the British people can make a decision and to the result, because I think that it might shock the that is separate from the decisions that face the Welsh hon. Gentleman. He should not be so complacent. electorate. There is a perfectly sensible argument for that. The second view is that we should adopt the US Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) model and have all the elections that we can possibly (PC): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, have on the same day. That means accepting that the Dr McCrea, and to speak to amendments 30 and 31, public are perfectly able to distinguish between the which appear in my name and those of my hon. Friend elections. the Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) and my right Although I accept the latter point, we arrived at the hon. Friend the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd conclusion that we did because of the point about (Mr Llwyd). They are both probing amendments and media coverage and the ability for issues to be explored follow the spirit of the contributions by the hon. Members properly. I think that the public are perfectly capable of for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) and for Forest of Dean making decisions in different elections on the same day. (Mr Harper). The danger is that not all of the appropriate issues will We welcome the fact that we are discussing a piece of be explored in the coverage, the debates in the media Wales-specific legislation. It is only three years since the and the debates between that party leaders. remarkable referendum in 2011, when the people of Wales voted overwhelmingly in favour of full political Hywel Williams: This is a genuine inquiry. Does the sovereignty over the political fields that were devolved hon. Gentleman recall the election day in Scotland to the National Assembly. I have no hesitation in saying when there were elections for various public offices that that was one of the proudest days of my political using different electoral systems? I seem to remember career. The desktop on the computer in my Westminster that it was disastrous. office has a picture of the referendum count in Carmarthenshire, with the yes votes piled up proudly Mr Harper: The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. on the yes table, and a few bundles of no votes on the no If we have elections on the same day, we certainly need table. to ensure that there is clarity about the electoral systems and in the design and printing of the ballot papers, so Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): Get a life! that it is clear for people not just which parties they might want to vote for, which is a decision for them, but Jonathan Edwards: Well, apart from the Swans staying the mechanism by which they can do so. A lot of lessons up this year—another great achievement, which I know were learned from that process. We had that in mind the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) shares when we held the referendum on the parliamentary with me. voting system and we tried to ensure that there was not Most striking about the referendum result was that it the level of confusion that there had been in the past. was matched across every county in Wales—apart from Amendments 30 and 31 are hopeful amendments. Monmouthshire, which only just voted no. When the Having considered all the evidence, I think that it makes history of Wales is written, that result will be recorded sense to separate the big elections. I am not sure whether very strongly when compared with the referendums of six months is long enough. We decided to shift the ’79 and ’97. It was an earthquake moment, and I elections by an entire year to separate the media coverage remember the shell-shocked faces of many Unionists and the debates so that people could focus on the down in Westminster the week after that historic occasion. important issues. The amendments raise some sensible The nature of the game has therefore changed, and issues. It makes sense to keep the elections to the subsequent opinion polling clearly indicates that the primary legislative assemblies in the UK—the Scottish people of Wales want greater control over their lives. I Parliament, the Welsh Assembly, the Northern Ireland think they are far ahead of the political class at the Assembly and this Parliament—apart. That was the moment, and I even include Plaid Cymru in that context. provision that we made in the Fixed-term Parliaments Today we are discussing in historical terms a further Act 2011. milestone on the path towards Welsh self-government, I am therefore pleased that the Bill presented by my with, for the first time, a national legislature being right hon. Friend the Secretary of State permanently empowered to have an element of fiscal powers. Needless makes the terms of the Assembly the same length as to say, the Bill does not go anywhere near as far as my those of this House, but offset by a year to keep the party would want in terms of powers for Wales, but as elections separate. That will enable a proper debate to an historian in a previous life I can safely say that when take place before elections to this place and will enable the history of Wales is written, this period will be seen Welsh voters to have a proper debate about the issues as one of rapid political development for our nation. that the Welsh Assembly and Welsh Assembly Government As we celebrate the 20th anniversary of the great will focus on. indie band from Manchester, Oasis, and its first studio Finally, if people’s decisions in Welsh elections are album in ’94, I am reminded of one of its best songs, indeed made on issues for which the Welsh Assembly “Little by Little”. I hope sincerely that when we conclude and the Welsh Assembly Government are responsible, our Committee deliberations we will not be “looking my reading of the situation, based on how the Welsh back in anger”—a reference to another of its great Assembly Government are handling the national health songs. Today is therefore another landmark in the political service in Wales, which I will not talk about today, but development of our country. 883 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 884

The context of the Bill is interesting in itself, and I get Jonathan Evans: Does that really hold good as an the impression that the Secretary of State would rather argument? The hon. Gentleman will have seen current walk through fire than deal with the Bill today. I am opinion polls that show that support for independence—as sure he sees it as a hospital pass from his predecessor. opposed to support for devolution—in Wales is at an The Bill results, of course, from the UK Government- all-time low. He has rightly talked about the seminal sponsored Silk commission, in particular part I, and I change in Wales in which the Conservative party has pay tribute to Sir Paul and his fellow commissioners for joined other parties to support devolution, but the their work on both stages of the report. As I said, as a result of the Scottish debate so far is that support for party our evidence to both parts of the commission Welsh independence is lower than ever before. called for far greater progress than was finally agreed, but we were prepared to compromise to seek agreement Jonathan Edwards: I do not want to get into a debate and make progress. It is therefore disappointing that we about independence, but the most detailed polling ever find ourselves presenting amendments in Committee, undertaken on devolutionary attitudes was by the Silk and endeavouring to preserve the integrity of the Silk commission in the second part of its work. It suggested commission. that 20% of people in Wales wanted devolved defence Unfortunately, the Wales Bill has torpedoed the and foreign affairs, and those would be the two last recommendations of the Silk commission, particularly powers that would ever be devolved. in relation to the lockstep on the income tax powers, Regardless of the result in Scotland, the constitutional which we will discuss later. Even more regrettably, it landscape of the UK will change considerably. If Scotland seems that Labour’s amendments to the Bill, rather votes yes, that will be the end of the British state as we than strengthening it as we seek to do, aim to place know it. If it votes no, the likelihood is that it will get further roadblocks and move us even further from what significantly more powers, with 90% approval ratings the Silk commission proposed. for a devolution-max settlement that would devolve everything apart from defence and foreign affairs. Is the Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): The hon. hon. Gentleman seriously saying that the people of Gentleman is running through the parts of the Bill that Wales would accept the settlement in the Bill if Scotland he disagrees with, and it is entirely possible that people were to get significantly more powers, even in the event on both sides of the Committee may disagree because it of a no vote? is a wide-ranging Bill. Does he accept, however, that the Bill makes dramatic progress in that it provides the Chris Ruane: If the vote in Scotland is close but foundation stones for financial accountability to be ultimately a victory for no, does the hon. Gentleman vested in the National Assembly for Wales? That is a anticipate that the SNP will come back for another key step forward that makes the Bill hugely important vote, and another after that, and that it will not be so for the interests of Wales. much a referendum as a neverendum? Jonathan Edwards: As I said, I think the Bill will be viewed as an important milestone in the constitutional Jonathan Edwards: As long the people of Scotland development of our country, but it will not surprise the have those aspirations and vote for an SNP Government, hon. Gentleman to hear that my ambition for Wales is I imagine that they would want to ask the question on greater than what is set out in the Bill. subsequent occasions, but that is a debate for another time. Considering the way in which the opinion polls Owen Smith: A moment ago the hon. Gentleman said are moving, it seems that the question might be settled that Labour was in some way seeking to undermine the this time. Bill, and I am aware from media reports that that is the line Plaid Cymru is taking in the media. I wish to place Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): I remind on record that that is the opposite of what we are the House that the Prime Minister said a few months seeking to do. We are probing the Bill today but we will ago to the people of Scotland that, whatever happens, support it. We are looking to strengthen the powers devo-max is on offer to them. My hon. Friend is right to held by the Welsh Assembly in many regards, and we say that that means that the constitutional set-up of the are seeking greater symmetry on tax powers with Scotland. UK will have to change, come what may. Crucially, we will be tabling amendments to secure fair funding in advance of any of those changes, and looking Jonathan Edwards: As ever, I am very grateful to my to ensure that we move to a reserved powers model—all right hon. Friend for his valid and expert intervention. of which I am sure the hon. Gentleman would support. Whatever happens in Scotland, it will completely change the political landscape and supersede Silk and even Jonathan Edwards: If that is indeed the hon. Gentleman’s perhaps what we are discussing today. position, I am sure he will join us in the Lobby when we With the Scottish question in mind, I believe that the vote on the new clauses later. UK Government have missed an opportunity to bring The second major context in which this debate takes forward a settlement that would have helped them to place is the seismic events happening in Scotland. As I develop a narrative in Scotland in which the Westminster said yesterday in the Welsh Affairs Committee, the elite recognised the national aspirations of the people of second part of the Silk commission’s work will be the nations of the state, and were happy to reform the superseded by the result of the independence referendum, relations between the nations of these isles to preserve one way or the other. Even the Bill could be superseded the future of the state. One obvious measure would by events in Scotland, as its proceedings in the Lords have been to devolve income tax powers to Wales in the are likely to happen after the people in Scotland have Bill without the Scottish lockstep model. We will debate cast their vote in the independence referendum. that issue in greater detail, but suffice it to say at this 885 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 886

[Jonathan Edwards] under your chairmanship. I thank hon. Members on both sides of the Committee for their contributions to point that the unambitious nature of the Bill leaves the this early part of the first day of our deliberations. people of Scotland in little doubt that the referendum is Amendment 9 would give the Assembly the power to a straight choice between more powers with yes and the decide, by resolution, when Assembly elections are held, status quo with no. and would remove the Secretary of State’s powers in Amendments 30 and 31 would ensure that the poll relation to varying the date of Assembly elections and for an ordinary general election to the National Assembly proposing a date for extraordinary Assembly elections. could not be held within six months of a general election Amendment 10 would prevent the Assembly from setting for the UK Parliament. I am reassured by the discussion a date for an election on a day on which it knows, or I had with the Minister before the debate. That, and the reasonably expects, a parliamentary general election to comments by the former constitutional Minister, the be held. The amendments would permit the Assembly hon. Member for Forest of Dean, is why I am probing to determine the date of Assembly elections and rather than pressing the amendments to a vote. When consequently the length of its own terms. That reflects a he took the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill through the recommendation made by the Welsh Affairs Committee House, he did a lot of work to ensure that there would arising from its pre-legislative scrutiny of the draft be no coterminosity between the Assembly and the Wales Bill. general election. That would have presented a great It is worth pointing out that the Silk commission danger to our democracy in Wales. considered the matter of legislative competence for Assembly elections to be outside its terms of reference 4pm and made no recommendations in this regard in its second report. Nevertheless, the Government believe This is important because we have to mitigate the that the devolution of further powers to the Assembly damaging effect that media distortion can have on should not be undertaken in a piecemeal fashion, and democratic debates in Wales. Plaid Cymru was excluded that the issue would best be considered in the wider from the 2010 election TV debates, in which no mention context of possible changes to the Welsh devolution was made of the fact that much of the discussion settlement arising from the recommendations made by surrounding health, education and other devolved areas the commission in its second report. The Government would not affect the people of Wales. Wales has a made clear, on publication of the report, that number of daily newspapers, notably the Western Mail recommendations requiring primary legislative change and the Daily Post, but their readership is extremely should be a matter for the next Parliament and the next small. Many fantastic local papers are under pressure, Government, and consequently that they should be for not least the Carmarthen Journal, South Wales Guardian, political parties to consider in preparing their election the Tivyside Advertiser and the South Wales Evening Post. manifestos. We believe the same principle should apply Chris Ruane: The Ryhl Journal. when considering whether legislative competence for Assembly elections should be devolved to the Assembly. Jonathan Edwards: And the Rhyl Journal, although I It is important that electors are clear on how long they am not an avid reader, I must admit. are electing Assembly Members for when they vote in the 2016 Assembly election, and that five-year Assembly Most people get their political news from London terms are in place by then to ensure that Westminster papers. If we have a Westminster election and an Assembly and Assembly elections do not coincide in 2020. election in close proximity, there is a great danger that The Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 moved this the issues for which the national Assembly is responsible House to a fixed five-year cycle and consequentially will be dropped completely. The Minister has indicated provided that the next ordinary general election to the that there is no intention to bring the elections closer National Assembly for Wales would be moved on a and that there are protections in the Bill to ensure that one-off basis by one year from 7 May 2015 to 5 May there will a gap of at least a year between them, so I am 2016. This responded to concerns raised by the Assembly happy not to press my two amendments. that holding general elections to this House and to the On the Labour amendments, the Electoral Reform Assembly on the same day could lead to the Assembly Society has lobbied extensively against amendment 9, elections being overshadowed. I am encouraged that arguing that Members of all parties seem to be in agreement on the “good governance and greater stability is achieved through fixed position that we do not want the two elections coinciding. terms and this should not be a power that is given to the Executive I particularly welcome the Labour party’s support in to decide.” seeking to minimise the risk of that, which is evident It points out that, as the electoral system for the Assembly in amendment 10. makes coalitions more likely, fixed terms also provide Similarly, amendments 30 and 31, tabled by right stability and security for parties of government. Two of hon. and hon. Members from Plaid Cymru, are intended the four terms in the Assembly have seen coalition to ensure that an ordinary Assembly general election Governments, so I agree with that point. does not take place within six months of a UK general Amendment 10 appears to have been drafted with the election. I am encouraged that the hon. Member for aim of ensuring that Assembly and Westminster elections Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) has are not held on the same day. I would have been happy been reassured by the debate so far and by our previous to support that if it had been pressed to a vote. discussions, and that he is looking to withdraw his amendments on that basis. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales There is cross-party support for the principle that, as (Stephen Crabb): I, too, would like to start by welcoming far as possible, we should seek to ensure that ordinary you to the Chair, Dr McCrea. It is a pleasure to serve general elections to the Assembly and to this House 887 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 888 should not coincide. With the next Assembly election Mr Harper: The Committee will be pleased to know, scheduled for 2016, if the Assembly remains on a four-year I hope, that I view this as a probing amendment—unless cycle, the two sets of elections would coincide every 20 I am provoked. I thought it would be helpful to draw years, starting in 2020—something that all parties are out some of the implications resulting from taking a clearly keen to avoid. Clause 1 makes it far less likely wider look at the issues about clause 2 that were raised that Assembly elections and parliamentary elections on Second Reading. I shall say a few words of support will coincide in future. I therefore ask Opposition Members for clause 2 and its principles and also speak about new to support the clause, to consider the further devolution clauses 4 and 6. of powers to the Assembly in the context of preparing Amendment 15 is designed to achieve a number of their own parties’ manifestos and consequently to withdraw things. Members will remember that the Parliamentary or not press the amendments. Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011 effectively decoupled the linkage between the geographic constituencies Owen Smith: I am grateful to the Minister for of the Welsh Assembly and the Westminster ones. Although, acknowledging that our amendments reflect the views after the amendment to the Electoral Registration and of the Welsh Affairs Committee and, indeed, as I said Administration Act 2013, this has not yet taken effect earlier, those of the Welsh Government, and that they for the 2015 general election—sadly, in my view—it will were tabled in good faith. I am equally pleased to hear of course kick in for the 2020 election unless the primary that when it comes to looking at the Silk commission legislation is changed. It thus seems sensible to look part I report or any legislation that might arise from it separately at the number of geographic constituencies or be reflected in the manifestos before the next election, that we need for electing Members to the Welsh Assembly, the Government will be open to considering whether to look at the number of regions to determine whether the Assembly should be responsible for—or at least we should have a number of regions or a single region, have the ability to consent to—when the elections should and to look at the relative balance between constituency take place. In the light of the Minister’s remarks, I beg seats in the Welsh Assembly and those elected on a list to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. system which obviously affect the proportional nature Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. of the system. Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill. The system that we have now is the one that was set up at the beginning of the process. I think that, following the experience of a number of sets of elections and a Clause 2 number of different Administrations, as well as a change in the powers and responsibilities of the National Assembly, it would be sensible for the total number of Assembly REMOVAL OF RESTRICTION ON STANDING FOR ELECTION Members and the relative balance between the different FOR BOTH CONSTITUENCY AND ELECTORAL REGION election routes to be considered. The setting up of an independent review by the Secretary of State is one Mr Harper: I beg to move amendment 15, page 2, possible way of going about that, although obviously line 33, at end add— there are other possibilities. ‘(5) The Secretary of State shall make arrangements for an independent review of the— Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman (a) likely and possible impacts on the effectiveness of the wants a review because of the additional powers given Assembly of the removal of the restriction on standing to the Assembly, and because elections have produced for both constituency and electoral region. In particular, either minority or coalition Governments in Cardiff the review shall examine the implications for the Bay. Is it his personal opinion that there should be more desirable total number of Assembly members and the Members of the National Assembly because of those proportions elected by each route; and additional powers? I fear that, rather than ending up (b) advantages and disadvantages of amalgamating the with regional Members on the list system, we shall end five Assembly electoral regions into one for the whole up with parties choosing from the party list, and that, as of Wales. a result, Members will come disproportionately from The Secretary of State shall lay a copy of the report of the one area of Wales, and will not be representative. The review before each House of Parliament within nine months of additional Members have constituency work to do, and this Act receiving Royal Assent.’. if the hon. Gentleman’s amendment were passed, that would be diminished. The Temporary Chair (Dr McCrea): With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Mr Harper: If the hon. Gentleman reads my amendment, he will see that it is very balanced. It simply calls for an Clause stand part. independent review, the report of which would go to the New clause 4—National Assembly to set number of Secretary of State, who would lay it before each House AMs— of Parliament so that it could be considered. [Interruption.] ‘Her Majesty may by Order in Council provide for the transfer The hon. Gentleman says that I have an opinion, and of responsibility for setting the number of Assembly Members to I do, but let me explain what the amendment will the National Assembly for Wales.’. do—because Members will want to think about what is New clause 6—Transfer of responsibility for determining on the amendment paper—before explaining my view electoral system— and what I consider to be the appropriate direction of travel. ‘Her Majesty may by Order in Council provide for the transfer of responsibility for determining the system of election of The amendment simply suggests that the review should members of the National Assembly for Wales to the Welsh “examine the implications for the desirable total number of Government.’. Assembly members” 889 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 890

[Mr Harper] 4.15 pm Jonathan Evans: My hon. Friend refers to people of the changes that we are making in clause 2—and having difficulty knowing who their representative is, I think it very sensible to revert to the original and I would not claim that everybody in Wales knew I position, which the Labour party altered—and also was their MEP. A survey indicated that only two people examine the could be identified as Wales MEPs. One was Glenys “advantages and disadvantages of amalgamating the five Kinnock and the other was Neil Kinnock—mistakenly, Assembly…regions into one for the whole of Wales.” most people in Wales thought he was an MEP, too. That is because if the number of constituency seats is changed, depending on the number of those seats, it can Mr Harper: My hon. Friend makes a sensible point. be difficult to come up with equally sized regions. My reading of it, as an Englishman, is that there seems Alternatively, the regions have to be changed every time to be a surfeit of Kinnocks in Wales at the moment. the number of constituencies changes. Labour does not seem to like the hereditary principle at the other end of this building but is keen on importing Jonathan Evans: I am seeking to reflect the tone of it into this House and having hereditary MPs—not a my hon. Friend’s remarks. I accept that he is only practice that I suspect is welcome. asking for a review. However, before he gives his own My amendment helpfully proposes an independent view to the Committee, perhaps I can ask him to review, but there are other ways of examining these comment on his experience of the change that took issues, and the Minister may have a better and more place when the European Parliament moved from a sensible one. I listened to his response to the debate on system of individual constituencies to a system of vast clause 1, and it may well be that waiting for part 2 of the regions. I myself have experience of representing the Silk commission and the Government’s response to it is whole of Wales under that system. It has been pretty a way of addressing the issues I raise in amendment 15, universally regarded as very difficult for any Member to in which case I will not need to trouble the House by represent an area of that size, and my hon. Friend must testing its opinion. have had the same experience in his own part of the world. Do we really need to review this matter? Perhaps, when he outlines his own view, my hon. Friend will Chris Ruane: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that reflect on what I have said. many list Members in Wales will be licking their lips at his proposals? A list Member who wants to climb the greasy political pole in Wales and wants a constituency Mr Harper: My hon. Friend has made a very sensible Assembly seat or a constituency parliamentary seat point. The south-west of England is certainly a large currently sets up their office in that constituency, works region. I think I am right in saying that my hon. Friend just that tiny patch and tries to get their own way. A list the Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson) has put Member in north Wales now has a choice of 10 seats, it on record that the distance between one end of the but if the hon. Gentleman has his way they will have a south-west region and the other is greater than the choice of 40 seats. It might work for the individual list distance between his constituency and the Scottish border. Member, but it does not work for democracy in Wales. Moreover, the south-west region now includes Gibraltar. It is a very significant region, and a difficult region to Mr Harper: The hon. Gentleman is putting words represent. I suspect that very few electors in that region into my mouth, because I made it clear, in response to could, hand on heart, name any of their MEPs, let my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan alone all of them. Evans), that my amendment’s position on the regions is If we are to consider changing the number of Members balanced. It asks us to look at the “advantages and of the Assembly in the geographic constituencies, we disadvantages”. I will set out my view on the number of must then ask how the regions are to be grouped, and constituency Members and the direction of travel. I was whether they should end up being equal in size. At saying that if there are a different number, that presents present, there are five regions with four seats in each issues as to how we divide up the regions. It raises region. That works very well mathematically if there questions about whether all the regions can remain are 20 Assembly Members and half the Members are equal in size and whether, if we try to continue with the constituency Members, but if the number of constituencies current number, some regions may end up being too is changed—and I shall explain in a moment why I small to deliver a proportional result. That is why the think that that should happen—some choices will have issue should be looked at. However, I also acknowledged to be made about regions. in my response to him that there is an opposite pressure We may up with regions that are different in size. If in respect of making sure that elected Members and the regions then become too small, with too few seats, their constituents feel close enough to each other. That the problem is that we do not get the proportionality in pushes in the opposite direction and we need to look at those regions that the list system is designed for. We all the issues so we can properly weigh them up. may not want to consider using the whole of Wales and instead consider having just fewer, larger regions, Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): I am sure the hon. but I accept that pushing against that is exactly the Gentleman would also concede that we must consider point my hon. Friend makes about the remoteness of the geographical problem of representing Wales from elected Members from voters. Two things are pushing Llanfairynghornwy down to Llanelli or to Caldicot. in different directions and we have to keep them in Unfortunately, I have to do that journey fairly frequently balance, which is why we need a review to examine and it is a nightmare just for the ordinary traveller, so both aspects so that a future Parliament can make a trying to represent that entire geographical area is not decision. something to be taken lightly. 891 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 892

Mr Harper: That is a good point. As I said, I am very only two minutes on the bus, so we are already equal. It familiar with it, because colleagues in the European is extremely difficult to make judgments without taking Parliament tell me—this relates to a point my hon. a ruler and making the mistakes of previous Governments Friend the Member for Cardiff North made—that it in terms of dividing up Africa. I strongly believe that we can take an extremely long time for someone to get are already equal. I am not being self-serving, because I from one end of the south-west of England to the other am not standing again anyway. by road, or even by rail. That is why my amendment suggests that we need to look at the advantages and the Mr Harper: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman disadvantages, so that a proper decision can be taken. for his intervention. There is a clear principle in our We need to think about the regions. As Members will system. Of course we represent localities in one sense, recall—I know this was not popular among those on but we represent electors and not big empty spaces and the Labour Benches—I think we have too many elected fields full of sheep and other animals—[Interruption.] I Members at the moment. The provisions that I have ask Members to let me finish my point. I say that suggested were to reduce the size of this place, and to because I have a relatively large constituency. It is a ensure that electors in all parts of the United Kingdom pleasant environment with a number of farms. I live were equally represented rather than over-represented next to a farm that has cows and sheep, but the point is as they are at the moment, with the average size of a that I do not represent them in Parliament; I represent seat in Wales—in terms of the number of electors—being my electors. Even if a Member has a geographically smaller than the rest of the country. small constituency with 100,000 electors, it is the 100,000 electors they are representing and not the space. Equally, Huw Irranca-Davies: I appreciate the way in which I accept that if a Member has a significantly sized rural the hon. Gentleman is using his amendment to test and constituency, as I and the right hon. Member for Dwyfor explore the efficacy of a review of the different scenarios Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) do, but they have only 50,000 that could arise. I am interested to hear his thoughts on electors and a distance to travel between them, it is the another scenario, a wholly different trajectory towards, 50,000 electors whom they are representing. In the for example, increasing to 80 the number of Assembly Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011, Members who are bound to a constituency. We could we made specific provision for two seats, Orkney and have dual Member constituencies so that there was a Shetland, but that was based on the fact that they were direct link, but that is not in the review. I put it to him already recognised in statute as significantly different. that better than the amendment would be to wait for In general, it was accepted that a Member represents part 2 of Silk and for the wider issues around that and the people in a constituency and not the surrounding to explore all the different options relating to both environment, but I accept the point. There are challenges numbers and structures rather than accepting a slightly for Members about how they look after their constituents partial amendment looking at only a couple of scenarios. and there are the burdens of travelling, which I know all too well. I think that I might have provoked the hon. Mr Harper: I think I indicated at the beginning of my Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane), so I shall remarks that this was a probing amendment. I said that give way to him. I had listened to the Minister’s response to the debate on clause 1, and that that may well be an acceptable Chris Ruane: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving solution. The independent review looks at the impact of way a second time. He says that he thinks there are too the removal of the restriction on standing for both many elected Members, and he proposes to cut the constituency and electoral region, which is obviously number by 50. How does that square with the fact that the specific purpose of clause 2. In particular, it says since the coalition has been in power an extra 150 Lords that we should examine the implications for the desirable have been appointed? total number of Assembly Members and proportions elected by each route. I guess it implies that we will have Mr Harper: I can square that fact very well, as I was at least some Members elected by region. I accept the also the Minister who introduced proposals in this hon. Gentleman’s point that we could move to a wholly House, which I supported then and support now, to constituency-based system. I shall listen to the Minister’s reform the other place, dramatically reduce the number response first, but I am prepared to accept that waiting of Members and make it democratic. I am only sorry for part 2 of Silk and the response to that may well be a that the Opposition would not support the programme perfectly sensible way in which to proceed. I thought motion that would have enabled us to make such a that we should have some discussion today rather than provision and I am afraid that, as I said at the time, if focusing narrowly on whether a person can stand for we have a system of having peers who serve for life, as both constituency and electoral region. We discussed we do, the only way to bring the party balance more that at some length on Second Reading, but I felt that a into line with the results of the previous election is to slightly wider debate would be more helpful. keep appointing more peers, which means that the other place continues to get bigger. If, God forbid, the Labour Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): The party— hon. Gentleman referred to the attempt by the Government to—as he put it—equalise the workload of Members of Chris Ruane: One hundred and fifty. Parliament. I represent a constituency that runs 100 miles north to south and about the same across, with a Mr Harper: The hon. Gentleman says that there are population of only 55,000. Other Members may have a 150, and I do not think that that is actually the number, constituency of five miles across and a population of but the point is that even with the number of appointments 75,000. I argue that that is already an equal situation. It we have made, four years into this Parliament the takes me an hour and a half to two hours to get to number of Conservative peers has only just equalled surgeries, whereas other Members may have to travel the number of peers representing the Labour party, 893 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 894

[Mr Harper] those of us who have always been pro-devolution have always argued that it is fundamental that the different despite the fact that our commitment was to make the parts of Wales are represented at a regional as well as other place more accurately reflect the result of the at a constituency level. I would not want any possible general election. That reflects the enormous number of scenario that would see those lists increasingly South appointments made by his party when it was led by Walean-dominated. That would not be right for the Tony Blair and the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy future of the devolution settlement. and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown). That does not detract from my point, however. I wanted to reform the other Mr Harper: The hon. Lady makes a good point. I do place and to reduce the number of Members in both not want to trespass into North Walean and South Walean this place and the other place. I wanted to reduce the rivalries, but I am well aware that, if for no other reason cost of politics and I am sorry that we were not able to than the geography of Wales, the communication links do so, but I will not take any lectures from the hon. between north Wales and south Wales are quite difficult, Gentleman, because he and his party did not support and journey times can be lengthy—as Members have our legislation and they made sure that that reform pointed out to me. It is relevant to the health debate could not happen—more’s the pity. next week that there is a lot of east-west cross-border travel between England and Wales to access essential Mr Mark Williams: I want to return to the issue of public services, partly for the reason that travelling the amount of space between electors that was mentioned north-south is not very easy. The hon. Lady makes earlier, not just in relation to our capacity—I have some good points. My amendment was very balanced, 600 family farms in Ceredigion, which covers a big rural looking at both the advantages and disadvantages of a area—but, critically, in relation to our constituents’ larger list, so that a properly informed decision can be capacity to access us. That takes us back to the point taken. about the hon. Gentleman’s amendment. Going down the route of having a list system with a list made up of 4.30 pm anonymous people would, I think, be a retrograde step, I have taken several interventions, so I intend to make as evidenced by what the hon. Member for Cardiff progress. I want to say a word or two on clause 2, but I North (Jonathan Evans) said about anonymity, distance shall not dwell on it because we debated it fairly fully on and how that will ultimately mean that we will fail our Second Reading. It ought not to be very controversial. constituents. It simply returns the position—and indeed improves it slightly—to the position that the Labour party introduced Mr Harper: The hon. Gentleman makes some very when it set up the devolution arrangements, allowing good points, and I acknowledged them in response to candidates to stand both for a constituency and on the my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan list. It seems to me that the subsequent change was Evans). I said that that was why I wanted the review to a retrograde one, because effectively it reflected an consider both the advantages and disadvantages. We attempt to disadvantage minority parties. It seemed to need to consider them because the proposals I brought me, listening to the Second Reading debate, that the before the House to reduce and equalise the number of Labour party’s view is that minority parties in Wales Members in this place clearly had an impact on the means all other parties than itself; and there is some number of parliamentary Westminster seats in Wales, very good evidence from the Electoral Commission and reducing the number from 40 to 30. We decided to others that that restriction—preventing candidates from decouple the number of constituency seats for this place standing in a constituency and on a list—particularly from the number in the Welsh Assembly, but it seems disadvantages smaller parties and disadvantages the to me that if we are going to consider the number Labour party less. It seemed to me, therefore, a particularly of Members and if the trajectory of the number of partisan change. Clause 2 simply restores the position Westminster Members is going down, we should at least to where it was, but with some sensible amendments to consider how many constituency Members there should ensure that people cannot stand on a list that relates to be in the Welsh Assembly. If that number moves the other end of Wales from the constituency that they downwards, as I think it probably ought to, consequences are standing in. will clearly flow from that for the size of the regions and how we group them. We must also build in a process Owen Smith: May I just check? The hon. Gentleman whereby we can change the number of seats as the referred to the minority parties a moment ago. Is he population increases, decreases or moves to ensure that referring to his own party, the Conservative party in that equal representation continues. Wales, as a minority party? Setting up the independent review enables all those issues to be considered properly. A report to the Secretary Mr Harper: No. I was referring to the Labour party’s of State can then be produced and laid before both view, which, when I listened carefully to the debate, Houses of Parliament so that a proper decision can be seemed to be its definition—not mine; its definition—that taken. The Silk commission might well be able to consider a minority party was any party other than Labour. It all these issues in the further work it will undertake, and seemed to me that the effect, and I think the intention, when I listen to the Minister’s response I might find that of the change that they made, which this Bill seeks the amendment is effectively redundant. However, the largely to reverse, was a partisan one that was designed issues are worthy of consideration. to favour Labour and disadvantage all others. Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): I am absolutely Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): But does not certain that the hon. Gentleman did not intend to the hon. Gentleman think it is a strange system where raise any North Walean hackles, but he has. Regional someone could lose their seat, only to get back in by representation is hugely important in Wales, because being No. 1 on the list? 895 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 896

Mr Harper: Well, it might be a strange system, in the system? How does it tell people out there that it is worth sense that I am not the greatest fan in the world of voting if, whether or not they like that person, he or she proportional representation. The hon. Gentleman knows will almost certainly get back in? that, because when I brought in the changes to allow the voters of Britain to choose between the status quo Mr Harper: The hon. Gentleman is not making a electoral system for this House and the alternative vote case about clause 2. He is making a case about whether system, I made it very clear that although I was facilitating it is sensible to have proportional representation on list the referendum, I was a strong supporter of first past systems. In such a system, someone who is No. 1 on the the post. list is very likely, regardless of what electors think about However, the decision was taken by the Labour party that person—their particular characteristics—but based to have a mixed system in the Welsh Assembly, and we on their party, to get elected. We face the same problem have supported that system. It is perhaps not where I in the European elections. I have heard the qualities of would have started if I had been inventing the system individual candidates being debated, but of course voters from scratch, but it is what we have. It does have a range are not able to pass judgment on a candidate. If I like of consequences. It has the range of consequences that the Conservative party—I do, of course—and I vote my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North alluded that way in south-west England, I have no ability to to. Some of the regions are quite large. It is therefore make any judgments about the candidates. I will vote possible to have disconnect between voters and the for the Conservatives and they will win. elected. By the nature of list systems, people are elected because of the party that they represent, not based on Mark Tami: That is a pure list system. any of their individual qualities. So, to take the specific point raised by the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside Mr Harper: The hon. Gentleman says that, but I do (Mark Tami), I am not sure I buy the concept that when not see that having a mixed system in which someone people are elected on a list system, if someone loses it may be elected on a list and not be elected for a has necessarily been a vote against them rather than a constituency raises any more issues than having a list at positive vote for one of their opponents. [Interruption.] all does. It may be that he does not like having a list Well, it is a positive vote for their opponent. system and he wishes we did not have one, but we do, so we should try to make it work as well as possible. I think Mrs Siân C. James (Swansea East) (Lab): Will the that the changes in the Bill are sensible and I wholly hon. Gentleman give way? support them. I promised to give way to the hon. Lady.

Mr Harper: I will in a minute, but I will answer the Mrs James: I am sure the hon. Gentleman agrees that point made by the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside the public are very confused by the system. Comments first. in my constituency range from, “It’s not fair,” through, When one votes in an election—I had an exchange on “Well, it’s getting elected through the back door,” to this with the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain)—one “They shouldn’t be able to get in in this way.” What puts a cross in a box on the ballot for a candidate. Now, does he suggest that the clause is saying to the democratic I accept that part of one’s motivation may be that one voting public of Wales, if a person can have two bites of thinks that the candidate is a wonderful person, but it the cherry if they like? might be dislike for the incumbent, or that one is making a range of judgments on whom one wants to Mr Harper: Those are all perfectly valid criticisms of govern the United Kingdom or, in the case of the Welsh list systems where voters are presented with a party Assembly election, Wales. I accept there is a mix of choice, rather than list systems where votes have the motivations, but even if one accepts the hon. Gentleman’s ability to order the candidates. The hon. Lady’s point contention that if an incumbent constituency Member on whether people have proper choices is a valid criticism loses their seat—assuming that people’s motivation was of every list system in which the voter can vote only for wholly negative; that is, they voted for the incumbent’s the party and has no ability to rank candidates, because primary opponent because they did not like the in such systems whoever is at the top of the list will incumbent—and that Member subsequently gets elected almost certainly get elected regardless of whether voters on the list, the list simply reflects the party choice that think highly of their personal qualities, but I do not voters made. It is the nature of the list that the person is think it is a valid criticism of the changes in the Bill we elected not based on any of their individual qualities—the are considering today. voter is not able to do that—but based on the party they Finally—[HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear.”] Opposition represent. The fact that they may or may not have won a Members groan, but I have been generous in taking constituency seat is not relevant to the debate. interventions. Had I simply spoken and taken no I think the hon. Gentleman is just throwing up chaff interventions, I would have been finished some time to obscure the fact that the previous change was a ago, but that would not have been the right nature of a partisan change made by the Labour party, and the debate in Committee on an important Bill, so perhaps clause simply restores the position not to one that we we could have a little less chuntering from the Opposition created, but one that Labour made when it invented parties. devolution. I want to ask a question about new clauses 4 and 6, which were tabled by Plaid Cymru. I was a little confused, Mark Tami: Does the hon. Gentleman not accept because new clause 4 states: that, in most cases, the odds are that the person who is “Her Majesty may by Order in Council provide for the transfer No. 1 on that list, even if they lose their seat, will hold a of responsibility for setting the number of Assembly Members to seat in the Assembly? Why is that a particularly democratic the” 897 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 898

[Mr Harper] Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) in his intervention on the hon. Member for Forest of Dean, but new clause 4’s Assembly, which is consistent with the points made by intention is that, should the discussions be concluded, it the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr in would be a matter for the Assembly to determine rather his earlier remarks on clause 1 about giving the Assembly than this House of Commons. more control, but new clause 6 would give Increasing the number of Assembly Members has “responsibility for determining the system of election of members” been endorsed by the Electoral Reform Society Cymru, not to the National Assembly but to the Welsh Government. as well as the 2004 Richard commission, which was It is almost certainly the case that that is not what was commissioned by the Welsh Government of the time. intended and that it was intended to give responsibility The present Presiding Officer of the Assembly, Rosemary to the Welsh Assembly. Butler AM, has also argued that the institution should have 80 members. The second report of the Silk commission, Jonathan Edwards: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman published in March, argued for the same and stated: for giving way and for giving me the opportunity to “The size of the National Assembly should be increased, respond. We understood from the Clerks that, for drafting and…most analysis suggests that it should comprise at least reasons, they would prefer to use “Welsh Government” eighty Members.” in the Bill, but he is right that the intention is to devolve In October 2013, the Electoral Reform Society Cymru responsibility to the National Assembly. and the UK’s Changing Union project published a report, “Size Matters”, that went further by arguing for Mr Harper: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman said an increase in the number of AMs to 100. It based its that, because although it may be the case that a party findings on an evidence-based examination of legislatures with a majority is in effect the Government and can get across Europe and further afield. It concluded that, as the Assembly to do what it wants, there is a difference in the Assembly now controls a budget of nearly £15 billion giving Ministers executive powers to make changes to and can pass laws on education, health and transport, a electoral systems. Systems of election should at least be larger legislative body is needed to ensure that the determined by the Assembly. I have not made a decision law-making is done thoroughly and is not rushed. on whether responsibility should lie with the Assembly or remain with Parliament, but it certainly should not 4.45 pm become an executive decision of the Welsh Government. The Assembly at present is arguably buckling under It was not the intention, but a combination of new the weight of the new powers it has been granted. It clauses 4 and 6 and amendment 9, which was not would be in the best interests of full and open democracy moved, would have given the First Minister the power to ensure that there is an adequate number of AMs to not to have any elections at all. If there were elections, keep the Executive in check. After all, aside from the he could have decided the system of election and put Welsh Government Members, there are only 42 Back himself into a powerful position. I am glad that we have Benchers in the Assembly, which by any standard is not discovered that that is the intention neither of the enough. I read with interest the comments of Julie Labour party nor of the hon. Gentleman. Morgan, the AM for Cardiff North—she served with In conclusion, I shall listen carefully to the Minister, distinction as a Member of this House for many years—in but amendment 15 is probing. I strongly support clause 2 yesterday’s Senedd debate on the Silk commission. She and will vote for it to remain part of the Bill. I am made the case that the Assembly should immediately set grateful for the clarification that the hon. Gentleman up a Committee to determine how many Members it has provided on new clauses 4 and 6. needs to perform it functions. Mr Harper: I am listening carefully to the hon. Jonathan Edwards: It is a pleasure to speak to new Gentleman. One of his arguments for having a larger clauses 4 and 6, which are in my name and those of my number of Assembly Members is that the Assembly will hon. and right hon. Friends. We intend to press new need more of them as its responsibilities grow and cover clause 4 to a vote, but new clause 6 is probing. more areas. Given that those powers and responsibilities If passed, new clause 4 would transfer responsibility have effectively been transferred from the UK Government for deciding the number of Assembly Members to the and therefore relate to policy areas that no longer need National Assembly, as explained by the hon. Member to be scrutinised in this House, does he think that it for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) on my behalf. At follows that increasing the size of the Assembly because present, the National Assembly has 60 Assembly Members, of its increasing powers and work load means that there which is same as when it was established in 1999. The should be fewer Members in this House representing Scottish Parliament has well over 100 Members, and I Wales to reflect the smaller work load and lower level of am sure, Dr McCrea, that you could inform me that the responsibility here? number in that fine building in Stormont, which I have visited many times, in Northern Ireland is also above Jonathan Edwards: That relates to some of the points 100. Since 1999, the institution’s legislative competence the hon. Member for Ogmore made earlier. My position has grown considerably, particularly after the 2011 has always been that any reduction in the number of referendum, which I referred to in my earlier contribution, Members of Parliament must be complemented with resulting in full law-making powers in devolved areas the transfer of significant further fields of power to the being given to the National Assembly. Common sense National Assembly, as happened in Scotland. Perhaps a would dictate that the Assembly, working with the more interesting context is the Williams commission, Boundary Commission for Wales, should now determine which has been set up by the Welsh Government to the number of Members necessary to ensure its smooth consider public service governance and delivery across running. I take the point made by the hon. Member for Wales and, in particular, the number of local authorities. 899 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 900

There seems to be a move towards reducing the number before then, it has had 50% of the seats, and more, on of councils and, therefore, councillors. Perhaps that 30% of the vote. We therefore argue that proportional might provide a better context for the debate on the representation would provide a better reflection of how number of AMs in Wales, rather than the number of people vote in National Assembly elections. MPs. Jonathan Evans: Does the hon. Gentleman accept Mr Mark Williams: Given the timing of the Williams that his new clause could produce the opposite outcome? commission’s discussions on local government reform, He may wish for a proportional system, but his proposal does the hon. Gentleman not think that the amendment might take us back to first past the post, under which, at would be better placed in our manifestos—my party the last election, the Labour party got 36% of the vote has already signed up to the reforms recommended in and 65% of the seats. part 2 of the Silk commission—and debated at that time, rather than now? Jonathan Edwards: I am grateful for that intervention. I had been minded to include provisions whereby the Jonathan Edwards: The Minister made that point to Assembly would be allowed to determine its own system me before the debate, but this legislation provides an but not to move to a less proportional system such as opportunity now. Rather than making the case either that advocated by the Labour party with its double for more Assembly Members or for fewer, the new constituency system. That would be completely non- clause essentially states that when the time comes to proportional, with Labour perhaps receiving 70% of make that decision, it should be made by the National the seats on 30% of the vote, as the hon. Gentleman Assembly, not the House of Commons. It is a point of suggested. However, as a democrat, I believe that these principle about where power lies in these matters. Given matters should be devolved to the National Assembly. the shadow Secretary of State’s comments when he Parties would then fight the Assembly elections on intervened on me earlier, I look forward to the Labour manifesto commitments, and if people decided to vote party’s support when we vote later—[Interruption.] for a party that wanted an undemocratic political system Well, that is exactly the point. and one-party rule, that would be a matter for them.

Hywel Williams: I am disappointed by that sedentary Jonathan Evans: Since the hon. Gentleman is a democrat, intervention from the Opposition Front Bench. In our he will know that there was a democratic referendum. view it is the Assembly that should decide, because we In that referendum, where I argued for a no vote, we lost see the people of Wales as sovereign, not this place. the vote, but only by a tiny margin. The electoral system was part of what was voted on when the Assembly was Jonathan Edwards: I am grateful to my hon. Friend set up. Therefore, surely, if we become less proportional, for that intervention, which highlights the key political that should not be in circumstances where there is not at difference between Plaid Cymru and our unionist least referendum approval for the electoral system. opponents. Assembly Members are expected to be members of Jonathan Edwards: That is an interesting intervention. more than one Select Committee. Indeed, the Committees Clearly, it would be a matter for parties standing for the have a dual role, as they perform scrutiny and legislative Assembly on manifesto commitments whether they functions. That means Members are under tremendous determined to put their preference to a referendum. The pressure, especially if they serve on more than one hon. Gentleman makes a valid suggestion, and it could Committee, as many do. If more AMs were elected, well be the case. However, the basic point of what we some would be able to specialise in certain areas, and are trying to achieve is that that power should reside at the burgeoning expertise would ensure that democracy National Assembly level rather than with this Parliament in Wales is better informed. In any case, surely it should here in London. be for the National Assembly to determine its membership, The purpose of the new clause is not to change the not the House of Commons. We will therefore be pushing electoral system in and of itself, but merely to transfer new clause 4 to a vote. We look forward to the support responsibility to the National Assembly so that it can of like-minded individuals, even those on the Government change the system should it so wish. Who can forget—this Benches. goes back to the point made by the hon. Member for The motivation behind new clause 6 is straightforward. Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans)—the manner in which As we have been instructed to draft it by the Clerks, it the Labour party used the Government of Wales Act proposes that the Welsh Government, rather than the 2006 to gerrymander the electoral system by banning UK Government, should have responsibility for determining dual candidacy and imposing on Wales an electoral the system used for elections to the National Assembly. system that is used only in Ukraine? I am glad that Transferring this responsibility would streamline the through this Bill, the UK Government will rectify that election process and bring decisions relating to the disgraceful decision made through the 2006 Act. democratic make-up of the National Assembly closer Any decision by this Parliament on the electoral to the people it serves. It could also, I hope, lead to a system of the sovereign Welsh national legislature will more proportional system being used by that institution. always be met with concerns that the UK Government Plaid Cymru’s preference would be for a move towards of the day are seeking political advantage. The simplest a more proportional system that reflected the wishes of way to address those concerns would be to devolve voters more fairly. responsibility to the National Assembly so that it is Even with the top-up, the current system is extremely responsible for determining its own electoral system. biased towards the Labour party. In the last election, The current situation is tantamount to the European Labour polled 40% yet got 50% of the seats. In elections Parliament legislating on the electoral system used to 901 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 902

[Jonathan Edwards] the more recent referendum there was significant support— transformed support—but also, I would argue, support elect Members of this House. Surely, after a decade and from across the political spectrum. a half, it should be a matter for the National Assembly My party was identified in the past as arguing against to determine its own preferred electoral system. It does devolution. From the time that the vote took place, my not need Big Brother Westminster determining these party accepted the outcome of that vote. I remember, as matters. London needs to let go and treat the National the chief Conservative spokesman for Wales, speaking Assembly with some respect. at that time to the shadow Cabinet and making the point that it did not matter whether the votes were in Jonathan Evans: I am grateful, Dr McCrea, for the the hundreds or the low thousands. We as democrats opportunity to contribute to this debate. I know that had to accept the outcome of the vote. a number of colleagues want to contribute, so I will I also put that argument to those who now say they endeavour to limit my remarks to the matter that causes want to change the voting system. We know already me most concern—new clause 6 and its proposition that that those propositions have been put forward. New the voting system for the Assembly might be changed clause 6 would permit that change to take place. I agree by the Assembly itself. with the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr. Let me set out my rather unusual position as a I am a democrat. I might be against his clause, but the Conservative speaking from the Government Benches. aspect of it to which I have the strongest objection is Many of my colleagues will know that for more than that there is no fail-safe to make it possible to go back 30 years, I have been a supporter of proportional to the voters of Wales and ask, “Do you want to have a representation, and that at almost every Conservative less proportionate system?” Whether by accident or not, party conference that has been held, I have hosted the to say within the terms of the clause, “Let the Welsh Electoral Reform Society discussion. Having been elected Assembly Government propose something” is an open to the European Parliament on a proportional system, I invitation for an outcome that I believe is fundamentally have no compunction or concerns about such a system. anti-democratic. It is no less anti-democratic because During the passage of the legislation through the House, it is a decision made in Cardiff, rather than here in I was one of only 17 Members to go through the Lobby Westminster. in support of the amendment to introduce proportional I accept the outcome of the devolution vote. Throughout representation. my political life since that vote, I have supported the I remind the Opposition of the debate that took place National Assembly for Wales, but I remember as well at the time of the referendum that was held to create the what the basis of the settlement is. I am concerned that Assembly. That referendum was held after a general the terms of the clause present an opportunity to undermine election which left my party with no parliamentary that settlement. That, in my judgment, would let down representation at all in Wales. I had served as a Welsh the people of Wales. Office Minister until 1997. As my election result was declared in the middle of the afternoon on the Friday, I 5pm probably had the distinction at that time of being the Owen Smith: I intend to speak principally to clause 2 last Conservative MP to have lost his seat, but my party and not to amendment 2 or the new clauses. We tabled had 20% of the vote. We have heard a lot about minority an amendment to delete the clause, but it has not been parties, Dr McCrea. Between 1992 and 1997 we served selected, so we will push the clause to a vote. together in this House. I suppose it might have been I fear that gerrymandering has been a hallmark of said that your party was a minority party. It would not this Government’s legislation on the constitution. We be said in Northern Ireland nowadays that your party is saw it in the Parliament Voting System and Constituencies a minority party, so a little caution on the part of the Act 2011 and the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, and Opposition might be in order. the hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) has When the debate took place on whether the Assembly today sought, in effect, to reintroduce, through the back should be created, the complex system of individual door, his gerrymandering proposals to reduce the number constituencies, then regions in which people are elected of Members representing Wales, which would have a on the proportional system, was designed to reassure consequent effect on the number of Assembly Members. the people of Wales that we were not going to end up I fear that clause 2 in particular continues in that vein. with one-party government—that we would not have a situation whereby a fifth of the people in Wales could Mr Harper: I will resist, I hope, being provoked any vote for a political party and end up with no representation further, but how can the principle of ensuring that at all. There should be no doubt about that. Members of this House represent a broadly equal number of electors be called gerrymandering? Most people would I was appointed by my then party leader, the present think that it is a matter of basic fairness. We debated Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth this issue at length when the Parliamentary Voting Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond System and Constituencies Act was making its way (Yorks) (Mr Hague), to speak for the Conservative through Parliament. I understand why Labour Members party at the time those debates took place. I remember did not like it, because it had an effect on them, but it the debates I had at that time with the Labour Secretary is about delivering equality of representation, which I of State for Wales. We discussed the voting system, and would have thought they were in favour of. he said that proportional representation was an integral part of the settlement to be put before the people of Owen Smith: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for Wales. Bearing in mind the outcome of the referendum his intervention, but I think it was made in the same at that stage, the hon. Member for Carmarthen East spirit as that with which he has repeatedly made other and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) made it clear that in arguments, which is to cloak his party’s partisan intent 903 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 904 in the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies for would-be Members of the Assembly to nest like Act, the Fixed-term Parliaments Act and, indeed, clause 2 cuckoos in individual constituencies for a period, of this Bill with the veneer of a principled objective. anticipating their entry to the Assembly via the back That is not true: the rationale for all of those measures door. However, we did not imagine that the measure was to benefit his party, which is a smaller party—a would be used so shamelessly as it was by parties in the minority party—in Wales. I intend to demonstrate why Secretary of State’s Clwyd West constituency. that is the case. Mr Mark Williams: Has there been the same Hywel Williams: The hon. Gentleman has used the acknowledgement that such a measure was a mistake magic word, “minority”. In what way is a party with for elections to the Scottish Parliament or the Greater 30 out of 60 seats and that does not command the London authority, in which dual candidacy is still support of more than 50% of the Welsh electorate who permitted? actually vote a majority? Owen Smith: The hon. Gentleman makes a good Owen Smith: The point I was making is very simple point, and we should consider this matter right across and I do not need to embellish it, because I can rely on the piece. The evidence of elections in Wales that is the evidence provided by the Government’s own impact before our eyes, particularly in Clwyd West, but in other assessment, which states extremely clearly that the proposal’s seats as well—Llanelli springs to mind, where wannabe objective is to benefit the Assembly Members perched for a significant period, “smaller parties in Wales who may have a smaller pool of high only to contest the seats under first past the post—suggests quality candidates to represent them in elections.” that the measure will be abused. It has not of course Labour Members certainly would not for one moment been abused elsewhere, but it has been abused in Wales. contest the argument that the smaller parties in Wales— That is why we as representatives of Wales, who were among which I would, unfortunately, count the Conservative then in government but are now in opposition, are party—may have a smaller pool of high-quality candidates seeking to prevent this Government from amending the to represent them in elections, but I do not believe that law for Wales so that we guarantee that such sorts of that is an adequate reason for seeking to amend legislation abuses do not take place in future. with regard to this country’s constitution and elections.

The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones): Mr Williams: If the principle runs so deep and the The shadow Secretary of State will know that under the risk of abuse is so great, surely the hon. Gentleman original Government of Wales Act 1998, there was no should talk to his colleagues in Scotland and London ban on dual candidacy. At what point did the Damascene about reforming the systems there, rather than picking— conversion of the Labour party against the concept of quite frankly—on the National Assembly for Wales and dual candidacy take place? the people of Wales.

Owen Smith: I am very grateful to the Secretary of Owen Smith: As all hon. Members do, I talk regularly State for asking that question, because I think the date to colleagues in other parts of Britain, but we are now was 2 or 3 May 2003. The precise geographical location addressing legislation that relates to Wales. The evidence of that conversion was on a road not to Damascus, but relating to Wales that is before our eyes—from recent to Ruthin. It was of course during the Clwyd West history in the Secretary of State’s own seat—suggests election—the election to the Assembly in his constituency that there is a problem there and that the measure has in north Wales—when we witnessed the extraordinary been abused. As best we understand it, public opinion state of affairs in which Labour quite clearly won the also supports my contention that the system should be election and the Conservatives, the Liberal Democrats retained and that the proposed ban should not be lifted. and Plaid Cymru lost it, but the Conservative, Liberal Democrat and Plaid Cymru representatives were all Mr David Jones: The hon. Gentleman has twice returned to the National Assembly for Wales in what used the word “abused” in the context of Clwyd West. any right-thinking individual would think was a complete Will he please explain what he means by abuse in that denial of democracy and natural justice. context?

Mr Jones: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Huw Irranca-Davies: It is fairly straightforward. Owen Smith: I give way to the Secretary of State to put me right. Owen Smith: It is pretty straightforward. As I have said, there was an instance in Clwyd West of the abuse Mr Jones: I anticipated that the hon. Gentleman of natural justice and of what most people understand might mention the so-called Clwyd West question. Was as democracy by a system that allowed people to enter it not always entirely foreseeable from the moment that the Assembly via the back door. That is supported by devolution was instituted under this system that in the evidence, and I want to enumerate some of the some seats a number of representatives would be elected pieces of evidence, because they are extremely important. by first past the post, on the list, or both? It was always foreseeable and, frankly, the fact that it was not foreseen Mr Llwyd: The hon. Gentleman has used the word seems a large oversight by the Labour party. “abused”, which is objectionable, and has referred to the back door. Why in 2003 did Rhodri Morgan, Lorraine Owen Smith: That may well have been foreseeable. Barrett, Sue Essex, Jane Davidson, Jane Hutt and Leighton Labour has acknowledged that it was a mistake to draft Andrews all stand for a constituency and on a list if that the legislation in such a fashion that it became possible was so obviously attempting an abuse? 905 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 906

Owen Smith: Because that was quite clearly the system Owen Smith: The Assembly can do that, but that in place at the time. However, as I have acknowledged—my issue strikes me as rather tangential to the one that we right hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain) of are debating, which is the nature of the electoral course acknowledged it when he amended the law in arrangements that this House lays down for the Assembly, 2006—we admitted that it was a mistake to allow people which the Secretary of State is seeking to change. to abuse the system in such a fashion. I will return to the guts of the matter, which is the I hesitate to steal the thunder of my right hon. evidence of the need for the change. I think that the Friend, who referred to this matter so eloquently on evidence supports our view that no such change is Second Reading, but if we want evidence of the potential required. I return to the evidence provided in the impact abuse of the system whereby an Assembly Member assessment by the Government. Although they concede nests in a constituency that they subsequently want to that a majority of respondents to the consultation—a seek election to through first past the post, we need “small majority”, admittedly—were look no further than the leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne “in favour of retaining the ban”, Wood. She published a memo to her members in an they state that e-mail which provided what can only be described as a “the Government does not think that a strong enough case for route map for such abuse. I did not intend to quote this was made in the consultation responses.” extensively from it, but as I have been provoked, perhaps [Interruption.] The Under-Secretary of State for Wales I ought to remind the Committee of the details. She suggests that those were Labour responses. He really instructed her party: ought to take his consultation seriously.If the Government “We need to be thinking much more creatively as to how we want their policy to be supported by the public, they better use staff budgets for furthering the aims of the party.” ought to reflect the evidence, rather than dismiss it out She went on: of hand when it happens to be counter to their narrow, “Regional AMs are in a unique position. They are paid to partisan interests. work full-time in politics and have considerable budgets at their disposal.” Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): I am intrigued She said: and surprised that none of the three Plaid Cymru Members have stood up to defend their leader. In the “Consideration should be given to the location of their office— interest of their silence, may I suggest a possible tweet where would it be best for the region? Are there any target for at least one of them?: “We cannot answer what the seats…within the region?” shadow Secretary of State is saying, so we are silent and She went on: looking sheepish #nationalistsconfused.” “They need not be constrained by constituency casework and events, and can be more choosy about their engagements, only Owen Smith: I look forward to reading it on Twitter attending events which further the party’s cause. This can be later this afternoon. To return to the evidence, the achieved by following one simple golden rule: On receipt of every Government concede that this measure is solely designed invitation, ask ‘How can my attendance at this event further the to benefit the smaller parties in Wales—the Conservatives, aims of Plaid Cymru?’ If the answer is ‘very little’ or ‘not at all’, then a pro forma letter of decline should be in order.” the Liberals and Plaid Cymru—and that a majority of people responding to their consultation did not agree I do not think that we need any further evidence of the with their proposals to change it. potential abuse to which I am referring. 5.15 pm Mr David Jones: Is the hon. Gentleman’s criticism not of Leanne Wood, who I agree behaved wholly David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): The hon. disgracefully? Is he not overlooking the many regional Gentleman just said that this change would benefit the Members who were elected and behaved entirely properly? smaller parties. Does he therefore think that not changing His criticism is not of the system, but of an individual it would be beneficial to the largest party, and is he not who behaved reprehensibly. also conflicted by an interest in this issue? Owen Smith: I am merely quoting from the Government’s Owen Smith: The Secretary of State might be right that own impact assessment, which clearly states that this is some regional Members behaved perfectly appropriately. for the benefit of the smaller parties in Wales, among I agree with him that Leanne Wood did not behave which we count the Conservative party. appropriately in instructing her colleagues to respond in that way. The point that I am making is that the system Public attitudes to this issue are relatively clear and as it was constituted, and as he proposes to reconstitute there have been several reports. Most importantly, the it, was open to such abuses. That is why we suggest that Bevan Foundation—which is non-aligned although the current system, which we put in place when in office, splendidly named after my great hero—conducted an should be retained. analysis and a large survey to consider all these issues. It found that Mr Jones: The hon. Gentleman is being extremely “dual candidacy was unfair compared with those who felt candidates generous in giving way again. Surely these issues could should be free to stand in both.” be resolved by a change in the standing orders of the As a reference to the detail included in that survey, Assembly, rather than by changing the legislation. Does I quote a respondent from Llanelli who asked: not the Assembly have the power to regulate itself? The “How can it be right that you vote one way and then the person hon. Gentleman looks puzzled. I would have thought who loses can still find a way to get elected?” that he would recognise that the Assembly is in a Someone from Swansea East said: position to regulate the conduct of its Members through “I think it is unfair … It’s like people can sneak in the back its standing orders. door.” 907 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 908 and another said: We therefore have many examples from across the world, “It does seem unfair in a way, surely if they weren’t popular from Wales and from across the House of people’s enough they shouldn’t be able to get in.” concerns about the way in which the system has been Another respondent said: abused. “I don’t think some should have the added advantage of standing in both—it seems unfair really.” Mr Mark Williams: The hon. Gentleman mentioned and someone else from Llanelli said: New Zealand and the international precedents that he asserts back his case. Is he aware that the final report of “You don’t have two bites of the cherry.” the commission that looked into the system in New Zealand concluded: Mr David Jones: Will the hon. Gentleman clarify whether the survey he refers to is the one that was “It is proper and desirable…that political parties can protect good candidates contesting marginable or unwinnable electorates commissioned by his hon. Friend the Member for by positioning themselves high enough on their list to be elected”? Caerphilly (Wayne David), and although he refers to a large number of respondents, is it the case that there The New Zealand experience resulted in the ban being were precisely 47? thrown out.

Owen Smith: It was indeed commissioned by my dear Owen Smith: I am aware of that: the point that I was and hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Wayne making is that concern is felt about this issue across the David), but the Bevan Foundation, as the Secretary of world. It is not a narrow, partisan point: it has been State will know, is a non-aligned charitable foundation. widely discussed in other jurisdictions where this or It would surely contest quite vigorously the implication— similar systems have been applied. It has been suggested which I am sure he does not mean to make—that it is in that this only applies in Wales, but that is not true. any way aligned to the Labour party. There are similar election arrangements in several Asian countries, including South Korea and Taiwan, where Of course, it is not just evidence from the Bevan they have a similar ban on such behaviour. Foundation that is important. International evidence suggests that this form of gerrymandering is not supported by the public. In New Zealand, for example, public Mr Williams: The key point is that the New Zealand opinion research conducted by the independent review experience validated the approach that the Government committee, which is part of its Parliament and appointed are taking in clause 2. to examine the electoral system, found that one key criticism was that it was possible for MPs to be defeated Owen Smith: I understood the point that the hon. in an electoral contest but returned to the House through Gentleman was making: I was merely pointing out the their position on the list—clear evidence that it is not significant concerns in New Zealand that remain. just in Wales that people are concerned about that. In fact, it is not just in New Zealand that there are Jonathan Evans: The hon. Gentleman has shared concerns. In New Brunswick in Canada, an independent with us the research that he has done on the position in commission endorsed the ban on dual candidacy stating: New Brunswick. In neighbouring Quebec they had the same debate and came to the same conclusion as “The Commission heard that in some jurisdictions where candidates are able to run simultaneously on both ballots, voters the Secretary of State. are displeased with the case where a candidate is not successful in a single member constituency, but is elected anyway by virtue of Owen Smith: That is as may be. I merely say once being placed on the top of a party’s list.” more that this is not a straightforward, open-and-shut Evidence from two notable democracies—Canada and case, as it has been presented by the Government. We New Zealand—shows that it is not just those in the know otherwise—from the evidence of Clwyd West and Labour party and in Wales who are worried about that other seats in Wales, from public opinion and, frankly, process. from what our constituents tell us about their dissatisfaction, Of course, it is not just Labour Members who have which extends to the broader issue of the list and been concerned about this issue: it used to be a concern first-past-the-post system. We know that the public do of Members on both sides of the House. For example, not understand candidates being rejected under first Lord Crickhowell, a former Conservative Secretary of past the post and then sneaking into the Assembly by State for Wales, has said that the arrangements were the back door. “really pretty indefensible”. I would have thought that was a clear statement, but the current Secretary of State Jonathan Edwards: The hon. Gentleman says that he clearly does not agree. has been inundated by representations from constituents Perhaps Liberal Democrat Members agree with the on this matter. I have to be honest and say that I have Chief Secretary to the Treasury who said when we last never had any discussion with a constituent on this debated this in 2006: issue. How many of the good people of Pontypridd have been on the phone to him? “I should also point out that the Secretary of State for Wales has said that if the Commission had considered what he called the systematic abuses carried out by list members in Wales”— Owen Smith: I am tempted to say that very few of my which I have described here today— constituents—or, I suspect, those from any constituency in Wales—ever want to talk to me about the constitution, “he would have reached the same conclusion that we have”— which seems to exercise Plaid Cymru all the time. Most “we”in that case being of course the Liberal Democrats— people in Wales do not want to talk about the constitution: “namely that a ban on dual candidacy is the only effective they want to talk about the cost of living crisis and the solution.” other problems that we have in Britain. 909 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 910

[Owen Smith] which focused on voting in the National Assembly elections. Clearly, however, the Government chose only In conclusion, the evidence of the recent past in to reflect the contents of those reports selectively. Wales suggests that the previous system was being In fact, the Arbuthnott report quoted the Scottish abused. We have made a clear, principled non-partisan social attitudes survey 2003, which found a high degree argument that the current system should be retained as of opposition to party control of candidates on their it is. In so doing, we are striking a chord with the views regional election lists. Moreover, opposition to party of the Welsh Affairs Committee, which did not come to control of the lists was particularly acute—this is the a final conclusion but did say, as a point of principle: important point—because of public confusion with “we consider it unadvisable for electoral systems to be changed the system, exacerbated when regional Members of the frequently. Successive changes to electoral systems risk being Scottish Parliament appeared to get in through the back perceived as partisan by the public.” door having been defeated as constituency candidates. This is clearly a partisan change. The public will see it In the 2003 Scottish election Arbuthnott report, the for what it is and I am sure they would support us when, public was indeed concerned that 88% of regional MSPs later this evening, we vote against clause 2 standing part elected had fought and lost in constituencies. The closed of the Bill. list system was seen to have undermined the election result in these scenarios, as it raised questions of legitimacy Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): I welcome your Celtic for regional MSPs in voters’ minds. The Electoral insight into this debate affecting a Celtic neighbour, Commission’s 2006 “Poll Position” report on voting in Dr McCrea. I apologise to you, and to those on both Wales clearly demonstrated that more than half the Front Benches, if I have to be out of the Chamber for Welsh population—56.7%, to be exact—opposed the the winding-up speeches. closed list system, which is still in place, and that more I wish to speak on clause 2 stand part, a clause that than 60% of the electorate preferred to be represented reverses the ban on dual candidature, which this House by just one Assembly Member. legislated for in 2006. On Second Reading I provided detailed evidence about the widespread abuses of the 5.30 pm dual candidacy system in Wales that led to it being The Arbuthnott report confronted exactly the same banned under the Government of Wales Act 2006, problems that I faced as Secretary of State: the questions which I introduced. None of that evidence was disputed “How do we limit the tension between AMs and MSPs or rebutted by the Government or any of the parties. I that is created by constituency and regional lists where readily confess to being one of the Wales Ministers losers become winners?” and “How do we reduce abuses who, prior to devolution, took the original 1998 of dual candidacy?” The report suggested two measures Government of Wales Bill through Parliament that to remedy those problems in Scotland, the more significant permitted dual candidature, but I never for one moment being clear identification of the differences between imagined the abuses that it would produce and the regional and constituency Members in legislation, with antipathy it would create. Voters never understood that a clear code of conduct for Members of the Scottish it was widespread practice, from when the Assembly Parliament. That is not proposed in the Bill. was established in 1999 up until 2007 when it was banned, for candidates rejected by a particular constituency The report argued that regional MSPs should not to secure back-door election as Assembly Members make misrepresentations to specific constituencies, and through the regional list. They were then even able to there should be a tacit understanding between constituency claim to represent the very constituency that had rejected and regional MSPs that a constituency matter was for them. the constituency MSP alone. That effectively created a quasi-second tier for regional MSPs, because they had After reading the Government’s proposals for repealing no remit to meddle with constituency matters. We do the ban on dual candidacy, I have searched in vain for not have that system in Wales, and the Bill does not substantial arguments beyond cries of political partisanship. propose such a system. The report’s recommendation The truth is that the ban has affected all candidates of was then reinforced throughout Scotland by means of all parties by preventing each one from having a two-way an educational campaign to highlight the subtle and bet with voters. The ban simply puts the voters in important differences between regional and constituency charge by ensuring that, if a candidate is defeated in the representatives. constituency vote, that candidate does not get elected in defiance of the popular will. At a time when the political The Government may refer to clause 36 of the class—all of us—are held in lower repute than at any Government of Wales Act 2006, which is designed to time in the history of British democracy, the very idea prevent the public from confusing constituency and that the Government are proceeding to ensure election regional Assembly Members. It states: losers become winners is absolutely extraordinary. It “The standing orders must include provision about (or for the holds the electorate in utter contempt. making of a code or protocol about) the different roles and responsibilities of Assembly constituency members and Assembly Let us examine the case advanced by Ministers. First, regional members; and…Assembly constituency members must the Government have used evidence borrowed heavily not describe themselves in a manner which suggests that they are from the Scottish elections, which are similar to ours in Assembly regional members, and…Assembly regional members Wales, and manipulated evidence from the Arbuthnott must not describe themselves in a manner which suggests that report to support their case. Ministers claimed in the they are Assembly constituency members.” Green Paper that the Arbuthnott report on the situation I legislated for the introduction of those standing in Scotland found no justification for the argument that orders in 2006, but there is still an endemic problem. public dissatisfaction with dual candidacy had a negative Time and again, the result has been cherry-picking by impact on voter turnout. They also used evidence from regional members with clearly partisan motives of the the Electoral Commission’s 2006 “Poll Position” report, matters in which they wish to become involved, while 911 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 912 constituency members must deal with either the leftovers system and introducing an open list for regional or the vital but burdensome daily process of casework candidates—not something this Bill provides—to give and individual representation which is their proper some measure of control for Scottish voters. That was responsibility. There was a clear example of that recently done because the Scottish social attitudes survey 2003 in the South Wales West region. A regional Assembly found a high degree of opposition to the party control Member tried to claim leadership of the campaign for inherent in the list system. Voters in Wales enjoy no the Visteon pensioners, although it was not a devolved such privilege and the Government are not proposing issue, and was being addressed—and, indeed, was finally to give it to us. resolved—by a cross-party group of Members of the On the issue of dual candidacy, two different paths House of Commons. were followed: in Scotland it was through greater In practice, the system means that a regional AM or clarification of the roles of Members and by turning to MSP who has lost a constituency vote can work within open lists; and in Wales we felt that the ban was the a constituency, and can effectively run a four or five-year right solution to dual candidacy abuse. Nearly a decade election campaign focusing on high-profile public on from the Government of Wales Act 2006 I feel that campaigning and generating publicity, while never having we made the right choice, but much more must be done to confront the tough issues of daily representation and to give regional Assembly Members more accountability passing the buck to the constituency Member. to the electorate. On candidacy, this Bill does nothing to In 2003, former Liberal party leader and Scottish further the evolution of Welsh democracy—indeed it Parliament Presiding Officer Baron Steel of Aikwood puts it into reverse. said: Over the past 15 years, the Scottish Parliament and “My second reason for having second thoughts about the list Welsh Assembly have both evolved in different ways to system is that it led to unnecessary tension between some list better suit the needs of their individual electorates. As Members and constituency Members and others. Quite the most the Government’s proposal stands, we will return to distasteful and irritating part of my job as Presiding Officer was some of the absurd anomalies we saw in 1999 and 2003. dealing with complaints against list Members’ behaviour from As has been mentioned, in Clwyd West in 2003 every constituency MSPs, Westminster MPs and local authorities. Most did their best to obey the code of conduct, but there were a few one of the three losing party candidates nevertheless serial offenders whose behaviour was referred to the Standards won. Let us also consider the following cases from the Committee. I could not understand at first why we had such 1999 elections, when 17 out of the 20 regional Assembly problems, until it dawned on me that what some were determined Members elected lost constituency elections. Thus, more to do was misuse their position to run a permanent four-year than three quarters of the regional AMs did not have a campaign as candidate for a particular constituency. In most democratic mandate to represent people—voters had Parliaments you do not have Members sitting in the same chamber not voted for them—and 15 of these 20 had offices in or in committees who are going to be election opponents, and it the constituencies they failed to be elected in. does not make for a good working atmosphere. My third objection to the system as operated is that it has led In the Conwy constituency the Lib Dem AM Christine to a confusing and expensive proliferation of ‘parliamentary’ Humphreys came fourth in the popular vote—she had offices throughout the country. In at least one town there are four. less than 10% of the vote in Conwy—yet still became an This arose because of an agreement between the parties that AM for the North Wales region. In Wrexham the Plaid regional list Members as well as constituency ones should have Cymru AM Janet Ryder came last in the constituency, publicly funded offices.” with 2,659 votes—the constituency AM had 9,239 votes— Of course, that operates in Wales as well. Lord Steel and yet still became an AM through the back door. In continued: Ynys Môn the Tory AM Peter Rogers won 6,031 votes, “I registered my objection at the time because they have which put him third on the constituency list—the Plaid become a thinly disguised subsidy from the taxpayer for the local Cymru AM who won a majority had more than 16,000 party machines and added to the tendency I have just described. votes—yet he still became an AM for the North Wales In my view they are a serious waste of public money, and I do not region. It is not a partisan argument but simply a truth exclude my own former regional office from that stricture.” to state that those results are fundamentally undemocratic. That is an independent observation by a former Speaker In the 1999 election more than 215,000 Welsh men of the Scottish Parliament. and women voted in the North Wales region. Were we to look at every individual who ran as a constituency Mr Harper: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? candidate in that election and collate their votes, we would find that Christine Humphreys, Janet Ryder and Mr Hain: I would like to make a bit more progress, Peter Rogers polled less than 6% of the total regional because although the hon. Gentleman was generous in vote and yet still became AMs for that very same taking interventions, his contribution lasted 40 minutes. region. After two Assembly elections where this was a I would prefer to be a bit briefer, and I normally am regular occurrence, and with almost half the population very generous. saying in 2006 that they did not understand how their The fact that, nevertheless, Scotland has retained electoral system worked, we sought to remedy confusion dual candidature, in defiance of Lord Steel’s advice, is over how AMs could still get in through the back door. no reason for Wales to do the same. The Government The ban on dual candidature was the right choice then simply will not acknowledge the fundamental democratic and remains so now. We introduced the ban in 2006 to abuse of dual candidacy, which is that losers become stop these anomalies and the confusion they produced winners, and that voters are second-guessed and in voters’ minds, but now the Government are proposing contradicted by the system, their choices denied. The to start this all over again. second significant measure the Scottish Parliament adopted In 2006, Victoria Winckler, director of the Bevan after Arbuthnott tried to increase the accountability of Foundation, conducted a survey, which found broad regional MSPs to the electorate by changing the voting support for the ban on dual candidacy. Her report 913 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 914

[Mr Hain] she would not have discriminated between those two towns or their hospitals. Yet of all the parts of the list also highlighted the need for greater education and area which she represented, she targeted the one place understanding among the general public. This report where she had been narrowly defeated in 2003, invariably qualified the findings of previous research into dual describing herself as the “Llanelli-based Assembly candidacy. It said that none of it had been sufficient to Member”. The 2006 Act stopped her describing herself make a substantial case on whether or not the public as that, although in the meantime she had campaigned were for or against it in elections, but that it did discover hard as the list Member and had won the seat back in considerable public disquiet on the issue with broad 2007, only to lose it again in 2011. As the ban had support in favour of the ban. kicked in by then, she no longer remained the list Member. That has made it much harder for her to win Jonathan Edwards: If dual candidacy is so objectionable the seat back for the next elections in 2016. to the right hon. Gentleman’s party, will he explain why, Now I come to the pièce de résistance. If this Bill gets when it was in power in Westminster in 2010, it did not enacted unamended, the Plaid Cymru party leader, ban it in Scotland or for the Assembly in London? Leanne Wood, will be able to implement—indeed quite possibly is already implementing—the comprehensive Mr Hain: I have already dealt with that matter, but I strategy she laid out in a remarkably candid memorandum will, if I may, correct the hon. Gentleman. It is not in August 2003 when she was a list Assembly Member. objectionable to my party; it is objectionable to voters. My hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Owen That is the point about this, and we are representing the Smith) has quoted from that document, so I will not do voters’ will. so—[Interruption.] I can if Members are disappointed. Perhaps the great irony of the Government’s proposals is that when they released their Green Paper in 2011, 5.45 pm they found what was described as a The memorandum was issued privately to key party “small majority of people opposed to the Government’s proposal colleagues but, even before the era of WikiLeaks, it was to lift the ban”, happily revealed to the rest of the nation in a generous and yet they still carried on. The Government, who act of democratic service. If the Bill becomes law, themselves have a small majority, now seek to overturn Leanne Wood can put into practice her own painstakingly a small majority. A former Liberal Democrat leader frank advice to her colleagues. She is, and has been and a Conservative Secretary of State backed my 2006 since 2003, one of the four list members for the South ban, as did the chairman of the Richard commission. Wales Central National Assembly for Wales electoral The commission reported in 2004, recommending extra region, but on 15 March 2013 she announced plans to powers for the Assembly, which my 2006 Act delivered. stand for the Rhondda constituency in the Assembly Lord Richard told the Welsh Affairs Committee: elections in May 2016. In her press releases—I have one “There is something wrong in a situation in which five people with me dated 13 November 2013—she modestly describes can stand in Clwyd, none of them can be elected, and then they herself as the “Rhondda-based Assembly Member Leanne all get into the Assembly. On the face of it that does not make Ward”. To be fair, she does live in the Rhondda but her sense. I think a lot of people in Wales find that it does not.” office is in the town of Pontypridd, which is located in The eminent Welsh academic, Dr Denis Balsom, said in the Pontypridd rather than the Rhondda constituency. his evidence to the Richard commission: So she is not actually the “Rhondda-based Assembly “Candidates use the list as an insurance against failing to win a Member Leanne Wood” but the “Pontypridd-based constituency contest. This dual candidacy can also confuse the Assembly Member Leanne Wood.”Never mind, however; electorate, who may wish to consciously reject a particular candidate we will move on fast from that trifling matter of accuracy. only to find them elected via the list. It should remain a basic democratic right not to elect a particular candidate or to be able Leanne Wood could also have chosen to describe to vote a Member out.” herself as Aberdare-based, Cardiff-based or Cowbridge- based, as those are all places in her South Wales Central Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): Does my right hon. regional constituency, but no, she is apparently uninterested Friend agree that the real objection to dual candidacy is in the concerns of the other parts of her regional that those individuals who are rejected are then let in by constituency.By some amazing coincidence, she is interested the parties through the back door, and not by the only in the Rhondda, because she always and only electorate? describes herself as Rhondda-based. When the leader of Plaid Cymru said that she would Mr Hain: My hon. Friend expresses my argument stand for the Rhondda, it sounded like a brave—some well—indeed better in some respects. One motivation might say foolhardy—move, but then, of course, the for reversing the 2006 ban expressed by Plaid Cymru Conservatives proposed to bring back dual candidacy was the loss of its unquestionably talented Assembly and she said that it was likely that she would also stand Member, Helen Mary Jones. On 9 January 2006, when I to retain her regional Assembly Member position on was Secretary of State for Wales and dual candidature the list. Not so brave after all. When she loses in the was still permitted, Helen Mary Jones put out a press Rhondda constituency in 2016—I am afraid that I have release in which she described herself as the “Llanelli-based to break the news to her that she will lose heavily to the Assembly Member”. In it, she complained about money sitting Labour Member, the admirable Leighton spent on a hospital in Carmarthen instead of one in Andrews—Leanne Wood will have the lifeline of dual Llanelli. However, she should really have been supporting candidacy to fall back on. both hospitals. As a list Assembly Member for Mid and West Wales, she represented both towns. If she had Mr Harper: On the subject of bravery, will the right really been discharging her list Member duties properly, hon. Gentleman give way? 915 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 916

Mr Hain: No wonder Plaid Cymru is such an enthusiastic Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): My right hon. little helper to the Government on this clause. We Friend is making a brilliant and convincing argument should rename the Bill “Leanne’s lifeline”. I will give against dual candidacy, as always, but does he agree way. that, as the Electoral Reform Society has said, at the very least changing the system back and forth risks undermining the stability of the electoral system? Should Mr Harper: I have been listening carefully to the right we not just stick with the system that we have? hon. Gentleman’s argument and I do not understand this concept of the “back door”. I might be wrong— I am sure that Opposition Members will tell me if I Mr Hain: I completely agree. The change was made am—but surely if party candidates are listed on the after evidence had been assembled for Parliament, and ballot paper and electors cast a vote in a regional ballot, Parliament was convinced by that evidence. which is a separate vote, they know the consequences of There is a simple question that both supporters of the that vote. If someone on that list is elected based on the Bill and critics of this Parliament’s 2006 ban cannot second vote that somebody casts, the voter will have answer. It is this: if candidates cannot persuade voters known that that could happen. I do not know how the to vote for them, why should they nevertheless be forced right hon. Gentleman can describe that as someone on voters through the back door? The people of Wales being elected by the back door. are entitled to an answer, even if this Government cannot give it to them by ramming through this highly contentious, undemocratic and thoroughly objectionable Mr Hain: I realise that the hon. Gentleman is not a clause in a Bill that otherwise, in its broad features, member for a Welsh seat, but the truth is that people in enjoys a fair degree of cross-party consensus. Wales feel that people are being elected by the back door when they turn down a particular individual as The fundamental point is that the Government of their constituency Member only to find that they are Wales Act 2006, by introducing the ban, put the voters elected anyway. This description of such an election as back in charge. If voters did not want to elect somebody, “by the back door” seems to me to be valid. they did not have to do so. If they reject a candidate, that candidate should not end up representing them. We should keep the voters in charge by rejecting clause 2. Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): Will my right hon. Friend give way? Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Chope. I will not go Mr Hain: I want to make a little progress, if my right over many of the issues that my right hon. Friend the hon. Friend does not mind. I have a series of points to Member for Neath (Mr Hain) raised, but he is absolutely make in conclusion. right and I shall vote against clause 2 stand part because I believe that the restriction is right. The hon. Member A Mrs Jones or Mr Davies living in Porth or Treherbert for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) has been trying to in the Rhondda constituency should be forewarned by intervene repeatedly to say that people have a choice—they Leanne Wood’s memorandum, which amounted to a could vote for an individual on the constituency basis charter for abusing their money as taxpayers. I would but then have some other choice on the list. That is not advise them not to bother to approach for help and to quite the case. The names are listed in order and the check first whether they fit into her game plan. That voter might like candidate No. 3 on the list, but they do plan is not about helping either of them, but about not have the choice to vote for that person—they vote helping her and her political party. She is extremely—some for a political party, and it is the political party that might say recklessly—honest about her real intentions. selects the people at the top of the list. Usually that is In the memorandum, Leanne Wood urged Plaid Cymru either to boost its vote in an area or to get a person in by Assembly list Members such as herself only to do the back door who has already failed. That is the simple casework not where it is needed—not where it might fact of the process before the current restriction came help Mrs Jones or Mr Davies—but where it might in; it is a back-door one. benefit Plaid Cymru in its target seats, now including the Rhondda. She advised her colleagues to attend civic Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): May I suggest to my and other events in the constituency only if they thought hon. Friend that it is not so much a back door as a cat there were votes in it. I would say, “Those are your flap? You can not only go in through the cat flap but votes, Mrs Jones and Mr Davies. I would check it out you can withdraw without the need for a by-election if first if I were you.” She urged Plaid Cymru Assembly you are on the list rather than being a constituency MP. list Members to concentrate tens of thousands of pounds on their local Assembly office budgets in their party’s Jonathan Evans: It is your system. target seats, such as Rhondda. Leanne Wood’s memorandum of August 2003 was entitled, “What should Albert Owen: I thank my hon. Friend the Member for be the role of a Regional AM?” It made a perfect case Rhondda (Chris Bryant) for his intervention. The hon. for the ban on dual candidature in Wales, as my hon. Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans) is shouting Friend the Member for Pontypridd made clear by quoting across the Floor that that is our system. We have in detail from it. changed the system. He was not here in that Parliament, The Government are shamelessly proceeding to enshrine but we changed it, and we changed it on the basis—this again in statute, in clause 2, the very practice that this is important and has not been mentioned thus far—that Parliament banned eight years ago to prevent such in our 2005 manifesto we said we would bring in the abuses, of which there had been very many over the restriction. We won the most seats in that election in years. Wales, and we had the biggest share of the vote in that 917 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 918

[Albert Owen] Albert Owen: I know the hon. Gentleman had to leave the Chamber and was not here when my right hon. election in Wales. I do not see many people knocking on Friend the Member for Neath listed a number of people the doors of constituency Members of Parliament saying who hold the opposing view. My point is that the only they want to reverse that ban. time that this proposal has been put to the electorate in Wales, the people in Wales, whom we are here to represent, David T. C. Davies: Does the hon. Gentleman accept voted in support of the ban; and in the consultation, that if his amendment stands tonight, his party will they supported that measure as well. That is why we benefit electorally from it? How does he ensure that that should be voting against the clause. is not the reason that he is making these points today? There is no mandate for the clause, other than to support the smaller parties. If those who will vote for Albert Owen: I do not believe there is an amendment, the clause tonight were really serious about helping but we shall oppose clause stand part. The hon. Gentleman smaller parties, why not change the system altogether to made the same point in an earlier intervention. As help independents, who do not have the party machinery? things stand, there will be no electoral benefit, as things stand now, for the Labour party. The results and the Mr Llwyd: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? evidence, and the psephology that comes with them, show that there has been no benefit to Labour since we Albert Owen: That would be a serious clause to have introduced the restriction. in the Bill—one designed to help the independents—but The question that the hon. Gentleman should be no: because the Government feel that they have somehow asking is why are we having this debate now? The Silk been done a disservice, they are helping themselves by commission itself—we are having government by creating the opportunity to put people in the lifeboat commissions—did not make this proposal. I am ready that is the list system. to be corrected by Ministers, but I do not think it was in I will give way one final time to the right hon. their manifesto to reverse the ban. If I am wrong, I will Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd). take an intervention, but I do not think I am. [Interruption.] Someone says it was, but I do not know. Does the Mr Llwyd: No, it is okay. Carry on. Secretary of State want to intervene to clarify the position? Was it in his party manifesto in 2010 to Albert Owen: I thought the right hon. Gentleman reverse the ban: yes or no? wanted to defend the leader of Plaid Cymru, so I would have been happy to let him intervene. The Plaid Cymru David T. C. Davies: I will intervene. First, I apologise: leader sent the letter we have heard about and also obviously it is not an amendment, but the hon. Gentleman made a very bold statement that she intended to stand will take the point. for a constituency seat. Now, however, she is changing Secondly, no, it probably was not in our manifesto, her mind—she thinks she may lose. She provides great but the point is that no one would have noticed whether evidence that what the Government want to introduce is it was or was not. The hon. Gentleman’s party has won a lifeboat system. a few elections and lost a few over the past 15 years, but nobody voted for or against the Labour party or any Mr Hanson: Can my hon. Friend confirm that, if my other on the basis of what they were going to do about constituents chose not to elect somebody for the the voting system for the Welsh Assembly. constituency seat who happened to be No. 1 on the list and was therefore elected, the only way they could Albert Owen: There is a serious point to make about remove that person from the No. 1 position on the list manifestos. In 1999, we introduced a scheme that has would be by electing that person for the constituency in seen some abuse by candidates who, when they faced the first place, because of the way the electoral system the electorate, were rejected—comprehensively in many works? Is not that the craziness of the situation? cases, coming third or fourth for the seat—but got in on the list. That is why we put the measure in our 2005 Albert Owen: It is absolutely crazy. manifesto and implemented it. It was this Parliament—the I shall not detain the Committee on these arguments, hon. Gentleman might mock manifestos, but I am sure which have already been set out extensively, but I have he does he does not mock the will of this Parliament—that not heard one argument from the Government that said we should bring in the restriction, and there is no there is a mandate for the clause and that the people of mandate to reverse that. That is my point: none of the Wales think the ban, the restriction, is unfair. It is not. parties put it in its manifesto, and when the Government It is fair. It is fair that people should stand for a went out to consultation on the question, the majority constituency seat and put their position before the of those who bothered to respond wanted the ban to electorate; if they are rejected, they should accept that remain. There is absolutely no mandate for the clause at they have been rejected by those people and not seek to this time. The Committee should consider that point. represent them through some higher list system in the future. Hywel Williams: I think we were talking about evidence I shall vote against clause stand part. I hope that hon. to the Welsh Affairs Committee. Professor Roger Scully Members will realise that the people of Wales do not told the Committee: want the ban to be reversed and that they will vote in “It is impossible to take seriously the idea, suggested…by accordance with what the people of Wales want us to some…that dual candidacy in Wales is in any sense” do, which is maintain the ban so that we have constituency unusual. He is one of the pre-eminent political analysts Members people recognise and a more open system. I in Wales. regret not tabling an amendment to create a more open 919 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 920 list system, so that the people could choose whom they regularly reveal that people intend to vote differently in want to represent them, not just the political classes of relation to constituencies than in relation to regional the four—perhaps five—main parties in Wales. Members, which indicates that they understand that their choices are different.

6pm Paul Murphy: It can be argued that people vote Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab): I am delighted to differentially, as they do for the Assembly, and indeed follow my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn for the House of Commons, but I see no evidence in my (Albert Owen) not least because he put his finger on the constituency that they vote differentially for the top-up point about the only recent mandate being the change Members and the constituency Members of the Assembly; that my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain), they vote Labour—end of story. The same is true in in an outstanding speech, made when he was Secretary seats that are not held by Labour, for example next door of State in 2006, which was to do away with dual in Monmouthshire. I think that people do not understand candidacy. I do not know whether the people of Wales the system. I am not arguing against the notion of looked in detail at the manifesto, but it was in front of proportionality, although I do not like it; I am arguing them. There was no other way apart from a referendum against this particular system. to discover whether the people of Wales wanted it. Equally, with regard to clause stand part, people Following their voting, in the majority, for the Labour neither like nor understand the idea that candidates can Members of the Welsh Assembly, the mandate was put stand and be defeated but then get in. It is a simple into operation by the Labour Government here some system that they just do not like. We used it when we time later. were in power, of course, but that does not make it One of my biggest regrets from my time as a junior right. Ultimately, that is why people understand that the Minister in the early days of the previous Labour system is flawed and needs to be put right. I think that Government when I served on the Committee chaired candidates should have to make up their minds and by my right hon. and noble Friend Lord Irvine of Lairg decide either to stand for the constituency and work to look at the devolution proposals for Scotland and hard at it, as everybody in the House of Commons Wales is that I did not object either to this particular does, or to stand for some other type of proportional part of the legislation or to the daft system of top-ups. system. We were persuaded—we were duped—by the then Secretary In my view there is a case for increasing the number of State for Wales into believing that anybody wanted of Assembly Members. The fact that there are new it. The argument put forward by the hon. Member for legislative powers in Cardiff means that the Assembly Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans) was that the system cannot go on with just 60 Members. It simply is not big would prevent any one particular party from having an enough. It is not a popular argument, but the place overall majority all the time. That was also the view put needs more Members if it is to work. However, I do not forward by Donald Dewar, the then Secretary of State think that they should be elected using this system. My for Scotland, but events have now overtaken that view. view, inevitably, as someone who believes in the first- Scotland ended up with a Government with a substantial past-the-post system, is that there should be two Assembly majority, based on the first-past-the-post seats, so the Members for each of the 40 constituencies in Wales. argument no longer stands. That could be modified with some sort of proportionality, I am not saying that there should not be some form of of course, whether the alternative vote or some other proportionality, but I do not like it myself and I do not system. think that the people of Britain like it either. The Ultimately, what matters is that people relate to their proposal was resolutely defeated in the recent referendum elected representatives, whether Members of Parliament, on the alternative vote. My view is that the system is bad councillors or Members of the European Parliament. because people do not understand it. First, people do The hon. Member for Cardiff North is right about the not understand why their Assembly Member, who is daft system for electing MEPs—we brought it in, by the elected by first past the post, is supposed to be the same way, and ought to be ashamed of it—which means that as their regional Assembly Member, who is elected by a no one knows who their local MEP is, but that is top-up system. Secondly, and more appropriately, they another issue. I am trying to emphasise the link between do not understand the bizarre results that occurred in an elected Member and his or her constituency, whether regions such as mine in south-east Wales where there two Members for the constituency or one, because were overwhelming votes in favour of the Labour party, people understand that. As soon as people fail to understand but people were elected to the Assembly on tiny votes. how their representatives are elected, the system is most Thirdly, as described with great eloquence by my hon. certainly flawed. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath, people Susan Elan Jones: It is a pleasure to serve under your neither understand nor like how top-up AMs pretend to chairmanship, Mr Chope, and to follow my right hon. be constituency Assembly Members and use their base Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) and to try to get the constituency seat. other Members in this important debate. My mind is going back to the early hours of 2 May 1997, when a Jonathan Evans: The right hon. Gentleman knows new day had dawned. There were not too many of us the high regard that I have for him, but he seems to be who had noticed that new day, because I am not talking presenting an argument that is against proportionality about Labour gaining Monmouth, or Enfield, Southgate in this electoral system. Does he recognise that, irrespective or Hove; I am talking about Surrey Heath, where the of whether the same candidate is on both lists, the local party wanted a keen and—as was then the case— public do understand the system of top-up seats that relatively young Labour candidate to fly the flag. It comes through proportionality? Opinion polls in Wales found one—me. 921 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 922

[Susan Elan Jones] of its being good democracy. We have a system, as we still do, that cheats all but the two main parties. That is A new day really had dawned, because we had gained extraordinary.We had two elections where the Conservative 11,511 votes, which was 21% of the vote. Never had that party in Wales received 20% of the vote but had not a been achieved before, I thought. I felt an immense sense single MP in this House—a democratic outrage. The of victory. The campaign had had a few strange moments. idea was that the Assembly was going to be set up not to There was the time I told people how important it was have permanent one-party rule but to give all the other to have a new and reforming Labour Government who parties a fair chance of being represented. would bring in devolution. People looked at me and said, “Your campaign doesn’t belong in Surrey.” There Susan Elan Jones: That is right. It is important that was the time I told people that a new Labour Government on such constitutional issues we have this sort of open would ban handguns, and they showed me their debate and are open to ideas, as my party certainly has membership cards for Bisley gun club. Then there was been. It is possible to be progressive and pluralistic but the time I said that the Labour Government would to recognise that it would be nonsense to go back to the introduce a national minimum wage. They used a few whole issue of dual candidacy in the Assembly. I am expletives and explained that they certainly did not firmly of the view that someone should either stand for intend to pay it to their employees. a constituency seat or be on the Assembly list. There is a It was not the greatest of campaigns. More to the very strong case—my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys point, after I had realised that I had won 21% of the Môn (Albert Owen) made it—for open lists. These are vote, I realised that I had lost 79%. Let us, though, the sorts of things we should be looking at. imagine the scenario if things had been different. Let us Yesterday evening, I came across a leaflet. It was imagine that there had been a regional list on which I nothing to do with politics; it was to do with recycling. I could have stood, and lo and behold, on that great spotted on it a comment that I thought was so good heyday of the Labour party, much to the annoyance of that I wrote it down. It is not exactly clause 2 of this the 79% of people who had not voted for me, suddenly, Bill, but it could be. It said: miraculously, I reappeared as No. 1 on the list in Surrey. “Within as little as 6 weeks, the empty can you put into your I could have been the Member for Bisley or the Member recycling bin could be back on the shelf as a new can of cola or a for Chobham. The right hon. Member for Surrey Heath new tin of beans.” (Michael Gove) would no doubt have been quaking in That is why we think that the Government have got it his boots at the concept of this Welsh misfit down in the wrong on this one. suburbs. That shows how ridiculous dual candidacy is. Huw Irranca-Davies: It is very good to serve under David T. C. Davies: The hon. Lady is making a good your stewardship, Mr Chope. point, which is basically that PR is not a good electoral This has been an interesting debate. After listening system, and I agree. However, it was her and her colleagues intently to lots of good argument by Members on both who agreed to a PR system for the Welsh Assembly so sides of the Committee, I have still failed to hear a that they could get the thing through with the support convincing argument for once again reversing a fundamental of the Liberal Democrats and Plaid Cymru, who would part of the current devolution settlement, but there not have supported it if it was first past the post. They have been many convincing and compelling arguments created this system and they are going to have to live for why we should stay exactly as we are. That is why, with it. They cannot start wanting changes just because having heard the debate, I intend to support my Front- it does not suit them 10 or 15 years later. Bench colleagues. There has not been a convincing argument to reverse Susan Elan Jones: If the hon. Gentleman looked the ban. As has been pointed out by my hon. Friend the back at the history, he would find that many people in Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) and others, there the Labour party, including me, my hon. Friend the was only one manifesto commitment in the last set of Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) and many manifestos, and that was the Labour party’s. It was others, supported that pluralistic system, and I still do. based on the experience we had of the first outcomes of People talk about this in terms of partisan analysis, but Assembly elections, where 17 out of those 20 candidates we have to remember that we too, as a party, have list were defeated and then popped up again. Lord Richards, Members in mid-Wales and west Wales. the Richards commission and others reported that among I am pleased that people in constituencies who feel the electorate, not among politicians, there was a gut that every time they go out to vote in a Westminster feeling that that was not right. election or a constituency election for the Assembly, their candidate is not going to get in, can now feel that, 6.15 pm yes, their vote is going to matter. I appreciate that there I agree with the points just made. I support an has to be a balance in terms of constituency representation element of proportionality. I apologise to my right hon. in a region, but this remains important. We could have Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy). Although put, say, the candidates who stood and lost in the there is no ideal version, I like the idea of an element of Pembrokeshire seats on a list. There is no partisan proportionality because it gives something of a fair advantage for us, but there is a basic issue of fairness. crack of the whip to those who otherwise would not be This cannot be a two-way bet. represented. But the public are wise to that, and they feel it is unfair that people who have been openly Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): My hon. Friend defeated in a straight contest to be elected on their may recall that the decision that many agreed to was name as well as on their party then reappear—17 out of taken on the grounds not of getting wider support but 20 in that first election. We have heard about the Clwyd 923 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 924

West situation. It does not matter which party the and elsewhere. The argument that each region would candidates came from. It would not matter if all three not have four candidates who can be put on the list just of them were Labour. The three candidates who were does not hold water. defeated re-emerged. We can have the arguments, although it is not in any Chris Bryant: Does not this give the lie to the accusation of the amendments today, about open and closed lists. that the Labour party gains a partisan advantage from We could have the argument about a different system. the present law? Given that everybody else has mentioned There may in future be an increase in the numbers and a the Rhondda, I will too. Leanne Wood originally said return to two candidates for each seat, but that is not that she would stand for the constituency seat, but if the what is in front of us. What is before us is a proposal law is changed she will probably stand on both lists, and that was not in the Silk commission proposals to revert I think that undermines Plaid Cymru. If the law is to the situation where this anomaly, as we see it, which changed, it will hurt Plaid Cymru in the end. It will was flagged up in the first set of Assembly elections and mean that she will get fewer votes in the Rhondda than was the reason we changed the procedure, is put back she would have got in the first place. More importantly, again, against the advice of the Electoral Commission, it undermines, and makes people more cynical about, which says, as my hon. Friend the Member for Newport the whole concept of the Assembly itself. East (Jessica Morden) pointed out earlier, that we should not go chopping and changing as that adds to confusion Huw Irranca-Davies: I entirely agree. We all make and a feeling among the electorate that gamesmanship personal calculations in our political lives: we decide is involved. where we should stand, where we have connections and where we should cast our lot and go for it. However, the Jonathan Edwards: As one of the more reasonable proposed system—this is the exact situation in the Members on the Labour Benches— Rhondda—amounts to, “Well, I’m really going to go for this, but if all else fails there’s something I can fall Huw Irranca-Davies: Stop! back on.” My gut instinct is that that is not right and it does not feel right to many voters either. Jonathan Edwards:—is it the hon. Gentleman’s view The Bevan Foundation has been criticised, but it is that if there were a decision in future to change the a left-of-centre think tank—that is what it does. It is electoral system in its entirety rather than the minor scandalous to say that it is simply an arm of the Labour change proposed in the Bill, it should be for the Assembly party. If Members look at the work it has done on to make that decision, rather than the House of Commons? welfare issues, unemployment and economic incapacity in the valleys, they will see that some of it has been Huw Irranca-Davies: That is a good discussion to critical of the Labour party as well. When my hon. have and it will flow from part 2 of the Silk commission, Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) was which we will debate in the Chamber. It is a worthwhile looking for someone to do a report, my guess is that the debate to have in the present situation, where Parliament Institute of Economic Affairs and others were not still has sovereign powers and still in essence passes to available or did not have the knowledge of Wales to the Assembly the ability to do certain things, bearing in do it. mind the commitment from our Front Bench in principle The majority of people canvassed were very concerned. that we look favourably upon the idea of reversing the I will not repeat the quotes, but people from across all current position, where it is only the delegated powers parts of south and west Wales said that they could not that the Assembly can legislate on. That debate is not understand how people who had clearly been defeated for today, but the time will come. could then pop up. Of course, that was reiterated by the The explanatory notes, which Ministers seek to use to Government’s own impact assessment, to which I am justify the reversal, say in paragraph 12 that the concern sure the Secretary of Sate will refer when he explains expressed by many people why he is jettisoning its findings. “has been refuted in studies by the Electoral Commission and After the first set of Assembly elections, it is not just others which have demonstrated that the prohibition” the Labour party that underwent a Damascene conversion, that is currently in place—the ban— as it has been called, but the Tories and Lib Dems. “has a disproportionate impact on smaller parties who have a Lord Crickhowell, who has already been mentioned, is smaller pool of potential candidates to draw upon.” categorically opposed to dual candidacy and said back I am genuinely bemused by that. In my own constituency, in 2005: which is a strong Labour constituency, not only are “The present arrangements are really pretty indefensible”.—[Official there Tory voters, but there are Tory elected representatives, Report, House of Lords, 15 June 2005; Vol. 672, c. 1216.] a Plaid Cymru representative, and others. I cannot The current Chief Secretary to the Treasury made exactly believe that they do not have a sufficient number of the same point. It was not just us or members of the alternative candidates to put on a regional list. public who were saying it at the time; other politicians All we are talking about is a handful—four candidates— also said, “We made a genuine mistake.” appearing on a regional rather than first-past-the-post As I said at the beginning, we can have discussions list. If they do not have the numbers, that is a real signal about closed and open lists in terms of proportionality of a lack of confidence in the capacity of what have and whether there is a different way of doing it, but I today been termed “minority parties” in the regions. I say adamantly to the Secretary of State that to reverse simply do not believe it—there are people who will and the system again, for whatever reason, is not the way to should come forward. Equally, we would have to do the go. It does not work and it has been proven that it does same in the regions. There is an onus on the party to not hold the confidence of people on the ground in bring people forward in the valleys, the vale, west Wales Wales. Let us have the wider debate on the way forward, 925 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 926

[Huw Irranca-Davies] MPs out of the 40 MPs were elected with no mandate to introduce dual candidacy, but the Secretary of State is but simply to chop and change, particularly against the now introducing it. Will he help me with that contradiction? recommendations of the Electoral Commission, is no way to make Acts of Parliament. Mr Jones: It is perfectly clear that the Conservative party’s position was amply stated in the debate in 2006. Mr David Jones: I, of course, share the general delight That position was supported by parties other than the at serving under your chairmanship, Mr Chope. Labour party. It is absolutely clear that we have justice This has been an interesting and very forthright on our side in overturning a fairly straightforward debate. Clause 2—it seems unnecessary to say—will partisan measure introduced by the Labour party. overturn the ban on dual candidacy introduced by the Ian Lucas: The Secretary of State is being generous in Government of Wales Act 2006. Under its provisions, giving way. He keeps saying that it is a partisan measure, candidates at an Assembly election cannot stand both but will he explain how it applies to the Labour party in a constituency and on a regional list. Before 2006, differently from how it applies to any other party in Wales? candidates could of course stand in both. Amendment 15, which was moved by my hon. Friend Mr Jones: The position is absolutely clear: smaller the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), would parties in Wales, as we have said, have a smaller pool of require the Secretary of State to commission an independent first-class candidates. review of the possible effects of dual candidacy on the effectiveness of the National Assembly for Wales and to Ian Lucas: That is nonsense. lay the findings before both Houses within nine months of Royal Assent. I fully understand his intention in Mr Jones: It is not nonsense—absolutely not. The tabling the amendment and to a certain extent I empathise measure was put in place to favour the Labour party. with him. I welcome the opportunity to debate further the merits of removing the current unfair ban. My hon. Owen Smith: Will the Secretary of State give way? Friend has highlighted the need for independent evidence on the effects of dual candidacy, which is of course Mr Jones: No, I will make some progress. [Interruption.] important, but the fact is that ample evidence from I will give way in a moment. independent bodies shows that dual candidacy is part In its evidence to the Welsh Affairs Committee in and parcel of similar systems across the world. 2005—I do not think the hon. Member for Wrexham The previous Labour Government justified imposing (Ian Lucas) was a member of that Committee—the the ban on dual candidacy on the grounds that they Electoral Commission stated that it did not believe that said there was “considerable dissatisfaction” with the the case had been made and that it would system, although they provided little evidence to support “caution against any change that is perceived to be partisan and that position. Frankly, having listened to the debate, I could add to a prevailing distrust of politicians”. have to say that I have heard little more evidence this The Electoral Commission saw no evidence in favour of afternoon. We have of course had the Bevan Foundation— the ban during the passage of the Government of Wales Act 2006. During the pre-legislative scrutiny of the Owen Smith: Will the Secretary of State not confirm draft Bill, it reaffirmed that position. Even the Arbuthnott to the House that his own consultation for the Bill commission, which the last Labour Government set up showed that the majority of respondents were in favour to consider the electoral arrangements in Scotland, of retaining the current system? made it clear that “dual candidacy is a common feature of mixed member proportional Mr Jones: It is fair to say that there was a majority of systems across the world”. one, but frankly most of the respondents were Labour Assembly Members. As I will mention later, the letters 6.30 pm written by those Assembly Members bore a suspicious In ignoring those concerns and introducing the ban, similarity to one another. It might almost have been the last Labour Government made the electoral system that a template was provided for them. in Wales anomalous. Nowhere else in the world is dual The ban was introduced despite opposition from candidacy banned under this type of electoral system. other parties in the House, academics and even the As we have heard, the last Labour Government chose Electoral Commission. I know that several Labour not to impose a similar ban for elections to the Scottish Members served on the Welsh Affairs Committee before Parliament or the London assembly, both of which use the passage of the 2006 Act, and I am sure that they the same system. Dual candidacy is not banned in recall the evidence of Dr Richard Wyn Jones, Dr Roger countries with similar electoral systems, such as New Scully and Glyn Mathias, the Electoral Commissioner Zealand. This was touched on by the shadow Secretary for Wales, who all highlighted the potentially partisan of State, but the 2012 review by the Electoral Commission nature of the changes. Professor Alan Trench of the of New Zealand came to the conclusion that dual constitution unit at University college London, who is candidacy should continue to be a feature of its electoral currently a special adviser to the Select Committee, said system. in November 2011 that it was “a pretty blatantly partisan manipulation of the electoral system”. Owen Smith: I will take the Secretary of State back to the remarks that he made a few moments ago. Will he Mr Hanson: In 2005, 29 Labour MPs out of the confirm that when he referred to the smaller parties that 40 MPs in Wales were elected on a manifesto commitment would benefit from the change, he was talking about the to discard dual candidacy. In 2010, eight Conservative Conservative party in Wales? 927 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 928

Mr Jones: It is quite clear that the Conservative party elected by constituency and from the regional list; and is smaller electorally than the Labour party. That is the merits of an all-Wales list, rather than lists in five fairly straightforward. However, I was referring not just separate regions. to the Conservative party, but to the Liberal Democrats On the implications for the desirable number of Assembly and Plaid Cymru. Members, we set out in the Green Paper on future electoral arrangements that we believe 60 Assembly Owen Smith: I am grateful for that clarification. Is he Members is the right number, and we continue to hold therefore saying that the Conservative party in Wales that view. I note that the First Minister said in his oral struggles to field high quality candidates? evidence to the Welsh Affairs Committee during pre- Mr Jones: I do not think that we have had that legislative scrutiny of the Bill that the Assembly could difficulty in the past. “undoubtedly”cope with its new powers without changing The Opposition have pointed to the fact that a majority the number of Assembly Members. of respondents to the Government’s Green Paper The Government also believe that under existing consultation were in favour of retaining the ban as arrangements, the current ratio of constituency and further evidence in support of it. However, if one takes regional Assembly Members is right. The Green Paper away the many Labour Assembly Members, who responded set out our belief that an all-Wales national list was not in a strikingly similar way, that would no longer be the desirable as it would place more distance between regional case. The simple fact is that the ban was introduced to Members and their constituents than the existing five benefit one party, the Labour party, in one part of the regions—a view that I think is shared across the Committee United Kingdom, Wales, and in not Scotland or London. —and again, our view has not changed. In his evidence to the Welsh Affairs Committee during New clause 4, tabled by right hon. and hon. Members its pre-legislative scrutiny of the draft Bill, Professor from Plaid Cymru, seeks to establish a mechanism Scully said that the claims that are made about dual through an Order in Council by which competence candidacy, which have been repeated again and again could be devolved to the Assembly to determine its size. by Labour Members, In a similar vein, new clause 6 would enable devolution “remain wholly unsupported by solid evidence”. to the Welsh Government—I think it actually means I repeat that the simple fact is that the ban was the Welsh Assembly—of the power to determine the introduced as a partisan act that affects smaller parties system by which Members are elected. disproportionately and ensures that good quality candidates Although the Silk commission made no are lost to the Assembly. recommendations about the electoral system, it did recommend that the size of the Assembly should be Huw Irranca-Davies: Lord Bourne, who was my friend increased so that it might better fulfil its scrutiny role, and fellow academic at Swansea Institute of Higher and new clause 4 would pre-empt that. The commission Education—that great factory of political candidates—is also acknowledged the practical implications of its often cited as someone who lost out, did not have the recommendation on the electoral system and the need list to fall back on and hence went into other occupations. for further consideration. The Government have made However, does the Secretary of State accept that if a it clear in responding to publication of the commission’s candidate who, for very good reasons, was wholly report that any recommendation such as that requiring objectionable to the electorate—not a Lord Bourne, but primary legislation should be for the next Parliament, somebody wholly objectionable—was No. 1 on a closed and therefore for political parties to consider when list because of the party selection, Conservative, Liberal preparing their manifestos for the 2015 general election. or Plaid Cymru voters would have no choice but to vote Of course, the commission also recommended that for them? That is one of the big problems with the consideration be given to increasing capacity in the reversal that he is proposing. Assembly in the short term. Earlier this year an Electoral Reform Society report Mr Jones: Absolutely not. Electors may cast their found that 79% of Assembly Members surveyed believed votes in any way they wish for whichever candidates that plenary time could be used more efficiently and they wish. That argument is wholly facile. effectively, and in the same survey, 90% of Assembly The right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) Members supported a comprehensive review of Assembly seemed to criticise the whole concept of a top-up list. procedures. The Assembly and the Welsh Government As somebody who is far more supportive of the first- have the power to change those things through Standing past-the-post system, I have considerable sympathy for Orders, and I call on them to consider carefully how the that point of view on the basis that one lives by the Assembly could make better use of its time and the sword or dies by the sword. However, every party in this resources already available to it. House supports some form of proportional election to I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean the Assembly, as he accepted. It seemed to me that his for his amendment, which has enabled a full and extensive criticisms, and those of the right hon. Member for debate this afternoon on the merits of removing the ban Neath (Mr Hain), were aimed more at the consequences on dual candidacy. I hope I have been able to reassure of the proportional representation system than at dual him, at least, and I ask him to withdraw his amendment candidacy. Therefore, we are now legislating to remove accordingly. I also urge right hon. and hon. Members from that unfair prohibition and to reintroduce the system Plaid Cymru not to press new clauses 4 and 6 to a vote. that was in place and worked well between 1998 and 2006. The amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member Mr Harper: I am always glad to have facilitated a for Forest of Dean also proposes that his review would wide-ranging debate in Committee, as is proper, and to consider the implications of removing the prohibition fully air these issues. My right hon. Friend’s explanation on dual candidacy for the desirable total number of has been sufficient, and I beg to ask leave to withdraw Assembly Members; the ratio of Assembly Members the amendment. 929 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 930

[Mr Harper] Jackson, Mr Stewart Randall, rh Sir John James, Margot Reckless, Mark Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Javid, Sajid Redwood, rh Mr John Rees-Mogg, Jacob Question put, That clause 2 stand part of the Bill. Johnson, Gareth Johnson, Joseph Reid, Mr Alan The Committee divided: Ayes 265, Noes 191. Jones, Andrew Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Rogerson, Dan Division No. 258] [6.39 pm Jones, rh Mr David Jones, Mr Marcus Rosindell, Andrew Rudd, Amber Kelly, Chris AYES Ruffley, Mr David Kirby, Simon Adams, Nigel Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Rutley, David Knight, rh Sir Greg Afriyie, Adam Edwards, Jonathan Sanders, Mr Adrian Kwarteng, Kwasi Aldous, Peter Ellis, Michael Sandys, Laura Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Amess, Mr David Ellison, Jane Scott, Mr Lee Latham, Pauline Andrew, Stuart Ellwood, Mr Tobias Selous, Andrew Bacon, Mr Richard Elphicke, Charlie Laws, rh Mr David Shapps, rh Grant Baker, Norman Evans, Graham Leadsom, Andrea Sharma, Alok Baker, Steve Evans, Jonathan Lee, Dr Phillip Shelbrooke, Alec Baldry, rh Sir Tony Evans, Mr Nigel Lefroy, Jeremy Simpson, Mr Keith Baldwin, Harriett Fabricant, Michael Leigh, Sir Edward Skidmore, Chris Barclay, Stephen Fallon, rh Michael Leslie, Charlotte Smith, Chloe Barker, rh Gregory Featherstone, Lynne Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Smith, Henry Barwell, Gavin Fox,rhDrLiam Lewis, Brandon Smith, Julian Bebb, Guto Francois, rh Mr Mark Lewis, Dr Julian Soames, rh Nicholas Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Beith, rh Sir Alan Freeman, George Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Freer, Mike Spencer, Mr Mark Bellingham, Mr Henry Lidington, rh Mr David Fullbrook, Lorraine Stanley, rh Sir John Beresford, Sir Paul Lloyd, Stephen Garnier, Sir Edward Stevenson, John Bingham, Andrew Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Garnier, Mark Lopresti, Jack Stewart, Iain Binley, Mr Brian Stewart, Rory Gauke, Mr David Luff, Sir Peter Blackman, Bob Gibb, Mr Nick Streeter, Mr Gary Lumley, Karen Blackwood, Nicola Gilbert, Stephen Stride, Mel Maude, rh Mr Francis Boles, Nick Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Stuart, Mr Graham Maynard, Paul Bone, Mr Peter Glen, John Stunell, rh Sir Andrew McCartney, Jason Bradley, Karen Graham, Richard Sturdy, Julian Brady, Mr Graham Gray, Mr James McCartney, Karl Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Brake, rh Tom Grayling, rh Chris McIntosh, Miss Anne Swire, rh Mr Hugo Bray, Angie Green, rh Damian McPartland, Stephen Syms, Mr Robert Brazier, Mr Julian Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McVey, rh Esther Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Bridgen, Andrew Griffiths, Andrew Menzies, Mark Teather, Sarah Bruce, Fiona Gummer, Ben Metcalfe, Stephen Thornton, Mike Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Gyimah, Mr Sam Mills, Nigel Thurso, John Buckland, Mr Robert Halfon, Robert Milton, Anne Timpson, Mr Edward Burns, Conor Hames, Duncan Moore, rh Michael Tomlinson, Justin Burns, rh Mr Simon Hammond, rh Mr Philip Mordaunt, Penny Turner, Mr Andrew Tyrie, Mr Andrew Burrowes, Mr David Hammond, Stephen Morgan, Nicky Hancock, Matthew Uppal, Paul Burt, rh Alistair Morris, David Hands, rh Greg Vara, Mr Shailesh Burt, Lorely Morris, James Harper, Mr Mark Vickers, Martin Byles, Dan Mosley, Stephen Harris, Rebecca Mowat, David Walker, Mr Charles Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Walker, Mr Robin Hart, Simon Munt, Tessa Carmichael, Neil Harvey, Sir Nick Wallace, Mr Ben Murray, Sheryll Chishti, Rehman Heald, Oliver Walter, Mr Robert Murrison, Dr Andrew Clappison, Mr James Heath, Mr David Ward, Mr David Neill, Robert Clark, rh Greg Heaton-Harris, Chris Watkinson, Dame Angela Newton, Sarah Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hemming, John Weatherley, Mike Coffey, Dr Thérèse Henderson, Gordon Nokes, Caroline Webb, Steve Colvile, Oliver Hendry, Charles Norman, Jesse Wharton, James Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hinds, Damian Nuttall, Mr David Wheeler, Heather Crabb, Stephen Hoban, Mr Mark O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen White, Chris Crockart, Mike Hollingbery, George Ollerenshaw, Eric Whittaker, Craig Crouch, Tracey Hollobone, Mr Philip Ottaway, rh Sir Richard Whittingdale, Mr John Davies, David T. C. Holloway, Mr Adam Parish, Neil Wiggin, Bill (Monmouth) Hopkins, Kris Patel, Priti Williams, Hywel Davies, Glyn Horwood, Martin Pawsey, Mark Williams, Mr Mark Davies, Philip Howarth, Sir Gerald Penrose, John Williams, Stephen de Bois, Nick Howell, John Percy, Andrew Williamson, Gavin Dinenage, Caroline Hughes, rh Simon Phillips, Stephen Willott, Jenny Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Pickles, rh Mr Eric Wilson, Mr Rob Dorries, Nadine Hunter, Mark Pincher, Christopher Wollaston, Dr Sarah Doyle-Price, Jackie Huppert, Dr Julian Prisk, Mr Mark Wright, Jeremy Drax, Richard Hurd, Mr Nick Raab, Mr Dominic Wright, Simon 931 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 932

Yeo, Mr Tim Tellers for the Ayes: McKinnell, Catherine Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Young, rh Sir George Mr David Evennett and Meacher, rh Mr Michael Sarwar, Anas Zahawi, Nadhim Claire Perry Meale, Sir Alan Seabeck, Alison Mearns, Ian Sharma, Mr Virendra Miller, Andrew Sheerman, Mr Barry NOES Mitchell, Austin Sheridan, Jim Abbott, Ms Diane Flello, Robert Moon, Mrs Madeleine Shuker, Gavin Abrahams, Debbie Flynn, Paul Morden, Jessica Skinner, Mr Dennis Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Fovargue, Yvonne Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Smith, rh Mr Andrew Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Francis, Dr Hywel Morris, Grahame M. Smith, Angela Alexander, Heidi Gardiner, Barry (Easington) Smith, Nick Ali, Rushanara Gilmore, Sheila Munn, Meg Smith, Owen Allen, Mr Graham Glass, Pat Murphy, rh Paul Spellar, rh Mr John Ashworth, Jonathan Glindon, Mrs Mary Murray, Ian Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Austin, Ian Godsiff, Mr Roger Nandy, Lisa Tami, Mark Bailey, Mr Adrian Greatrex, Tom Nash, Pamela Thomas, Mr Gareth Bain, Mr William Green, Kate O’Donnell, Fiona Timms, rh Stephen Balls, rh Ed Greenwood, Lilian Onwurah, Chi Turner, Karl Banks, Gordon Griffith, Nia Owen, Albert Umunna, Mr Chuka Barron, rh Kevin Hamilton, Mr David Pearce, Teresa Vaz, rh Keith Beckett, rh Margaret Hanson, rh Mr David Perkins, Toby Vaz, Valerie Begg, Dame Anne Harman, rh Ms Harriet Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Watts, Mr Dave Benn, rh Hilary Harris, Mr Tom Reed, Mr Jamie Whitehead, Dr Alan Benton, Mr Joe Havard, Mr Dai Reed, Mr Steve Williamson, Chris Berger, Luciana Healey, rh John Reeves, Rachel Winnick, Mr David Betts, Mr Clive Hendrick, Mark Reynolds, Jonathan Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Blears, rh Hazel Hepburn, Mr Stephen Robertson, John Wood, Mike Blomfield, Paul Heyes, David Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Hillier, Meg Rotheram, Steve Wright, Mr Iain Brennan, Kevin Hilling, Julie Roy, Mr Frank Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Tellers for the Noes: Roy, Lindsay Susan Elan Jones and Brown, Mr Russell Hood, Mr Jim Ruane, Chris Stephen Doughty Bryant, Chris Hopkins, Kelvin Burden, Richard Howarth, rh Mr George Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hunt, Tristram Question accordingly agreed to. Campbell, rh Mr Alan Irranca-Davies, Huw Clause 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Caton, Martin James, Mrs Siân C. Champion, Sarah Jamieson, Cathy Chapman, Jenny Jarvis, Dan Clark, Katy Johnson, Diana Clause 4 Clarke, rh Mr Tom Jones, Graham Jones, Helen Coaker, Vernon THE WELSH GOVERNMENT Jones, Mr Kevan Coffey, Ann Kane, Mike Connarty, Michael Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Stephen Crabb: I beg to move, That the clause stand Cooper, Rosie Keeley, Barbara part of the Bill. Cooper, rh Yvette Kendall, Liz Creagh, Mary Khan, rh Sadiq The Temporary Chairman (Mr Christopher Chope): Creasy, Stella Lammy, rh Mr David With this we may take new clause 5—The National Cryer, John Lavery, Ian Assembly for Wales Cunningham, Mr Jim Lazarowicz, Mark ‘The Government of Wales Act 2006 is amended by adding at Dakin, Nic Leslie, Chris the end of section 1 (The Assembly)— Danczuk, Simon Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Davidson, Mr Ian Love, Mr Andrew (a) The Assembly may change its name by means of a Davies, Geraint Lucas, Caroline resolution agreed to by a simple majority; De Piero, Gloria Lucas, Ian (b) on the first occasion a resolution under subsection (6)(a) Dobbin, Jim Mahmood, Mr Khalid is passed, the expression “National Assembly for Dobson, rh Frank Mahmood, Shabana Wales” shall be replaced wherever it occurs in the Docherty, Thomas Malhotra, Seema GOWA 2006 by the name contained in that resolution; Doran, Mr Frank Mann, John (c) on any subsequent occasion, the name contained in a Dowd, Jim Marsden, Mr Gordon resolution under the terms of subsection (6)(a) shall Doyle, Gemma McCabe, Steve replace the previous name in the same manner; Dugher, Michael McCann, Mr Michael (d) unless the context requires otherwise, in any Eagle, Ms Angela McCarthy, Kerry enactment, instrument of other document passed or Elliott, Julie McDonagh, Siobhain made before this subsection comes into force any Ellman, Mrs Louise McDonald, Andy reference to the National Assembly for Wales is to be Engel, Natascha McDonnell, John read as, or as including, a reference to the Assembly Esterson, Bill McFadden, rh Mr Pat as renamed.”.’. Evans, Chris McGovern, Alison Farrelly, Paul McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Stephen Crabb: Let me begin, Mr Chope, by thanking Field, rh Mr Frank McKechin, Ann you and welcoming you to the Chair. It is a pleasure to Fitzpatrick, Jim McKenzie, Mr Iain serve under your chairmanship. 933 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 934

[Stephen Crabb] I rise to speak in favour of new clause 5, which stands in my name and those of my right hon. and hon. Following the 2011 Assembly election, the First Minister Friends. We will not be pushing it to a vote, because we of Wales announced that the Welsh Assembly Government want to save time and to have a discussion on income wished to be known instead as the Welsh Government. tax powers, which is what we really want to discuss in That change was made in order to make clearer the detail. However, I say to the Minister that, regardless of respective roles of the Welsh Government and the National his opening remarks, our new clause is in the spirit Assembly for Wales following the devolution of full of clause 4, which he has just presented. I hope the law-making powers. Since then, the term “Welsh Government will see sense in due course, either in the Government” has increasingly been used by people later stages of the Bill’s progress in this House or in throughout Wales, and it is now the commonly used the other place. term for the Executive. However, “Welsh Government” New clause 5 would give powers to the National remains an informal moniker, and “Welsh Assembly Assembly to change its name to the “National Parliament” Government” is still the formal legal name in statute. or to any other name should it so decide. I stress that In recognition of the widespread use of “Welsh the new clause does not call for the institution’s name to Government”as the generally accepted term, and following be changed in this Bill, but rather that the power to take the request from the First Minister, clause 4 provides this decision should be granted to the National Assembly, for the name of the Executive to be changed formally. as proposed in the Silk 2 recommendations. The Minister That will mean that, for the first time, the new title can was being somewhat mischievous in saying that we were be used in formal legal documents, in keeping with cherry-picking from the Silk recommendations, because common parlance. The clause provides that any reference our new clause is in line with the Silk 2 recommendations, to “Welsh Assembly Government” in existing legislation in that it is a matter for the National Assembly if it should be read as a reference to the “Welsh Government”, wishes to change the name of the legislature. The new unless the specific context requires the former name to clause would empower it to make that decision rather be used. than having to make a request to the UK Government As usual, Plaid Cymru Members wish to go even of the day, as it has done for the name of the Executive. further and have tabled new clause 5, which seeks to The new clause would mean that the National Assembly devolve to the National Assembly for Wales the power would be able to change its name by means of a to change its name through a resolution passed by a resolution agreed by a simple majority. It is gratifying simple majority. In renaming the Welsh Assembly that clause 4 officially changes the name of the Executive Government we are simply reflecting what the Executive to the “Welsh Government”, a title that has been used are now commonly known as. The same is not the case widely for practical purposes since the 2011 election. in respect of the National Assembly; people within and There was a Scottish precedent for this change of title in outside Wales know the legislature as the “National 2007, when the “Scottish Executive” were renamed the Assembly” or the “Welsh Assembly”, and I detect no “Scottish Government”. There has been broad agreement popular clamour in my constituency or any other part that the term “Welsh Assembly Government”, which of Wales I visit for a change in the name of Wales’s had been in use since 2002, had been confusing and legislature. anachronistic after the separation of the Executive and legislative functions of the Assembly in 2007. It also Jonathan Edwards: Is the Minister aware that the gave rise to the unfortunate acronym WAG—being leader of the Conservative party in the National Assembly given the same label as a premiership footballer’s better has made a manifesto pledge to change the name of the half has done little for the democracy of our country. I Assembly and make it a Parliament? have never used the term since I was elected, instead always using “Welsh Government”, so I was delighted Stephen Crabb: I am aware of all kinds of views from that following the 2011 election the First Minister made individuals across Wales on what the name of the the case that the Executive would be known as the legislature should or could be. I also recognise that the “Welsh Government”thereafter. So I fully support clause 4, Silk commission recommended that if the Assembly which makes that name official in legislation. wishes to change its name to the Welsh Parliament, that Now that the National Assembly is able to pass its should be respected. However in tabling new clause 5 own laws, it should be called a Parliament. However, I and other amendments Plaid Cymru seems to be doing appreciate that others hold a different view, and that in exactly what it has wrongly accused this Government of the European tradition, the meeting place of a legislature doing: cherry-picking the Silk recommendations for is generally termed an Assembly. In France, for instance, implementation through this Bill. the national legislature is called the Assemblée Nationale—if The Secretary of State’s written statement on 3 March my memory of international rugby trips to Paris serves made the Government’s view clear: we do not regard me correctly. Surely it should be a matter for the this Bill as an appropriate vehicle for implementing democratically elected Members of the national legislature Silk 2 recommendations, that those recommendations of Wales to determine the name of the legislature in requiring primary legislation should be matters for the which they serve. That is what we are trying to achieve “next Government and Parliament” and, as such, they in new clause 5, but I will not press the matter to a vote. are for political parties to consider in preparing their I expect there to be greater deliberations on this topic election manifestos. That remains this Government’s when the Bill reaches the other place. approach, so I urge Plaid Cymru Members not to press their new clause to a vote. 7pm Mr Harper: I fully support clause 4, but I want to Jonathan Edwards: It is a pleasure to serve under your touch briefly on new clause 5, about which the hon. chairmanship, Mr Chope. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan 935 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 936

Edwards) has just been talking. I do not support new as a little hint about where he wants to go. It is whatever clause 5, and I am glad that he is not going to press it to the parliamentary equivalent of a Freudian slip is, a vote. Although he makes the point that the text of the which gives it away. new clause does not pick a particular name, there is a bit of a hint in the title about where he is going. It is, I Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): I think think, a qualitative difference. The Minister, in setting there may be some confusion here, because of course out the Government’s position, made it clear that the this Parliament enabled the Scottish Parliament to be so renaming of the Welsh Assembly Government to the called, and there is no appetite for us to say to the Welsh Government is following public opinion and Scottish Parliament that it can call itself what it likes—even public usage, and simply therefore reflecting the reality the Scottish kingdom. Plaid Cymru is saying that the of the situation. What the hon. Gentleman and his Welsh Assembly should be able to call itself what it party are trying to do is the opposite. They are trying to likes, and there is, I understand, a strong case to call the push for changing the name of the Assembly in order to National Assembly the National Parliament of Wales, change the nature of the Assembly. Calling it the National but there is confusion here about what we are talking Parliament for Wales, which implies a single institution, about. Scotland has no power to decide the name for is clearly part of their campaign to move to a position itself. where Wales ceases to be part of the United Kingdom and becomes an independent country.That is not something Mr Harper: That is a good point. There are two I support, which is why I do not support the new clause separate arguments, one about what we should call the and why I think it is qualitatively different from clause 4. different institutions and another about which body is the right body to pass the legislation to enact those Jonathan Edwards: I was anxious not to get involved changes. I think that the Government’s approach in in a debate about the actual name, but the hon. Gentleman clause 4, which recognises the reality of what we call the will be aware that, in the UK’s tradition, Scotland Welsh Government and reflects that in primary legislation became a law-making Parliament and was named as passed by this Parliament, is the right one, rather than such. That is why I make the case for using the term the approach followed by those who have signed up to “Parliament”. However, there are individuals, including new clause 5. That is why I will oppose the new clause, those in my own party, who would prefer to keep the but I am glad that the hon. Member for Carmarthen term the National Assembly. We want to empower the East and Dinefwr is not going to press it to a vote. National Assembly to make that decision rather than I hope that the Committee will support clause 4. the House of Commons. Owen Smith: I, too, welcome you to the Chair, Mr Chope. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. Mr Harper: I see that point, but the danger is that the name change becomes part of the campaign to change We support clause 4, which renames the Welsh Assembly the nature not just of the institution but of the relationship Government. That is what the Welsh Assembly has long between Wales and the United Kingdom. That is why I said that it would like to happen and it reflects normal think that the approach the Government are taking in custom and practice across Wales, so we are pleased clause 4, which is effectively to reflect popular usage of that the Government have decided to change things and the term Welsh Government for the Welsh Assembly use the term Welsh Government in future. Government, is perfectly straightforward and sensible. On new clause 5, we accept that there is a debate to be Moreover, that is done through primary legislation and had about the name. Silk part 2 refers to the prospect of therefore keeps that decision for this House. I do not a Welsh Parliament and it is ironic that the leader of the support new clause 5, which would give that power to Conservative party in Wales holds that view. I admire the National Assembly. the chutzpah with which the Under-Secretary glossed over that, as it is an irony that the Opposition see clearly. However, this is an area of debate that ought Jonathan Edwards: It would be wrong to describe this properly to be dealt with in any legislation that reflects as some sort of partisan nationalist plot to change Silk part 2 rather than under this Bill, which properly the name of the National Assembly. As I have already reflects the preponderance of Silk part 1. For that said to the Under-Secretary of State, the position of reason, even if the new clause were pressed to a vote, we the Tory leader in the Assembly group is to change the probably would not support it. name to a National Parliament. Indeed it is even the position of the Presiding Officer of the National Assembly Stephen Crabb: I agree very much with the comments who is, of course, a Labour party Member. made by my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper). There are two elements to the Mr Harper: I take that point. I would oppose new debate. The first is about what we call the legislature clause 5 whoever drafted it, because the whole concept and the second is about where the decision is taken. As of changing the name to achieve a political outcome is for the first, there is an emerging debate in Wales about not something that I support. We can have a debate what we should call the National Assembly and whether about independence and whether the Welsh Assembly it should have its name changed. The leader of my should turn into a Parliament of an independent Wales, party’s group in the Assembly has a view that I fully but we should have it openly. We should not use changing respect. He is an excellent colleague and I am sorry if I the name as a surreptitious way of moving along the gave the impression that I was glossing over his views, debate and hope that nobody notices. The hon. Gentleman but I still maintain the position that the debate is has cunningly designed the new clause so that it does emerging and has not yet engaged with the public not say anywhere what the National Assembly should consciousness. Until we get to that point, it is probably be called, but, as I have said, it is given away in the title a debate that will not be resolved. 937 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 938

[Stephen Crabb] Evennett, Mr David Lewis, Brandon Fabricant, Michael Lewis, Dr Julian As for the second part of the debate, the Silk commission Fallon, rh Michael Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian referred to the decision on where the decision should be Farron, Tim Lidington, rh Mr David made in part 2 of its recommendations. We have been Featherstone, Lynne Lilley, rh Mr Peter clear and consistent all along that decisions about the Foster, rh Mr Don Lloyd, Stephen Fox,rhDrLiam Lopresti, Jack Silk part 2 recommendations are not for this Bill but for Francois, rh Mr Mark Luff, Sir Peter a future Parliament and a future Government and for Freeman, George Lumley, Karen the parties to consider in their manifestos. I stand by my Freer, Mike Maude, rh Mr Francis earlier remarks and ask the hon. Member for Carmarthen Fullbrook, Lorraine Maynard, Paul East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) not to press his Garnier, Sir Edward McCartney, Jason new clause to a vote. Garnier, Mark McCartney, Karl Question put and agreed to. Gauke, Mr David McIntosh, Miss Anne Gibb, Mr Nick McPartland, Stephen Clause 4 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Gilbert, Stephen McVey, rh Esther Clause 5 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Menzies, Mark Glen, John Metcalfe, Stephen Graham, Richard Mills, Nigel New Clause 4 Gray, Mr James Milton, Anne Grayling, rh Chris Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew NATIONAL ASSEMBLY TO SET NUMBER OF AMS Green, rh Damian Moore, rh Michael ‘Her Majesty may by Order in Council provide for the transfer Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Mordaunt, Penny of responsibility for setting the number of Assembly Members to Griffiths, Andrew Morgan, Nicky the National Assembly for Wales.’.—(Jonathan Edwards.) Gummer, Ben Morris, David Brought up, and read the First time. Gyimah, Mr Sam Morris, James Halfon, Robert Mosley, Stephen Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. Hames, Duncan Mowat, David The House divided: Ayes 4, Noes 254. Hammond, rh Mr Philip Mulholland, Greg Hammond, Stephen Munt, Tessa Division No. 259] [7.8 pm Hancock, Matthew Murray, Sheryll Hands, rh Greg Murrison, Dr Andrew AYES Harper, Mr Mark Neill, Robert Edwards, Jonathan Tellers for the Ayes: Harris, Rebecca Newton, Sarah Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Mr Mike Weir and Hart, Simon Nokes, Caroline Lucas, Caroline Pete Wishart Heald, Oliver Norman, Jesse Williams, Hywel Heaton-Harris, Chris Nuttall, Mr David Hemming, John O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Henderson, Gordon Ollerenshaw, Eric NOES Hendry, Charles Ottaway, rh Sir Richard Adams, Nigel Burns, rh Mr Simon Hinds, Damian Parish, Neil Afriyie, Adam Burrowes, Mr David Hoban, Mr Mark Patel, Priti Aldous, Peter Burstow, rh Paul Hollingbery, George Pawsey, Mark Alexander, rh Danny Burt, rh Alistair Hollobone, Mr Philip Penrose, John Andrew, Stuart Burt, Lorely Holloway, Mr Adam Percy, Andrew Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Byles, Dan Hopkins, Kris Phillips, Stephen Bacon, Mr Richard Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Horwood, Martin Pincher, Christopher Baker, Norman Carmichael, Neil Howarth, Sir Gerald Poulter, Dr Daniel Baker, Steve Chishti, Rehman Howell, John Pugh, John Baldry, rh Sir Tony Clappison, Mr James Hughes, rh Simon Randall, rh Sir John Baldwin, Harriett Clark, rh Greg Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Reckless, Mark Barclay, Stephen Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Huppert, Dr Julian Redwood, rh Mr John Barker, rh Gregory Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hurd, Mr Nick Rees-Mogg, Jacob Barwell, Gavin Colvile, Oliver Jackson, Mr Stewart Rogerson, Dan Bebb, Guto Cox, Mr Geoffrey Johnson, Gareth Rosindell, Andrew Beith, rh Sir Alan Crabb, Stephen Jones, Andrew Rudd, Amber Bellingham, Mr Henry Crouch, Tracey Jones, rh Mr David Ruffley, Mr David Beresford, Sir Paul Davies, David T. C. Jones, Mr Marcus Rutley, David Bingham, Andrew (Monmouth) Kelly, Chris Sanders, Mr Adrian Binley, Mr Brian Davies, Glyn Kirby, Simon Sandys, Laura Blackwood, Nicola de Bois, Nick Knight, rh Sir Greg Scott, Mr Lee Boles, Nick Dinenage, Caroline Kwarteng, Kwasi Selous, Andrew Bone, Mr Peter Dorries, Nadine Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Shapps, rh Grant Brady, Mr Graham Doyle-Price, Jackie Latham, Pauline Sharma, Alok Brake, rh Tom Drax, Richard Laws, rh Mr David Shelbrooke, Alec Bray, Angie Ellis, Michael Leadsom, Andrea Simpson, Mr Keith Brazier, Mr Julian Ellison, Jane Lee, Jessica Skidmore, Chris Bridgen, Andrew Ellwood, Mr Tobias Lee, Dr Phillip Smith, Chloe Bruce, Fiona Elphicke, Charlie Lefroy, Jeremy Smith, Henry Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Evans, Graham Leigh, Sir Edward Smith, Julian Buckland, Mr Robert Evans, Jonathan Leslie, Charlotte Soames, rh Nicholas Burns, Conor Evans, Mr Nigel Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline 939 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 940

Spencer, Mr Mark Walker, Mr Charles Clause stand part. Stanley, rh Sir John Walker, Mr Robin Amendment 41, in clause 9, page 13, line 8, leave out Stevenson, John Walter, Mr Robert Stewart, Bob Watkinson, Dame Angela ‘10’ and insert ‘15’. Stewart, Iain Weatherley, Mike Clause 9 stand part. Stewart, Rory Webb, Steve Amendment 1, in clause 11, page 16, line 20, leave out Streeter, Mr Gary Wharton, James from ‘Wales’ to end and add Stride, Mel Wheeler, Heather Stuart, Mr Graham White, Chris ‘where a Welsh rate resolution specifies more than one rate of Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Whittaker, Craig income tax.’. Sturdy, Julian Whittingdale, Mr John Government amendment 19. Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Wiggin, Bill Amendment 38, in clause 28, page 29, line 34, after Swire, rh Mr Hugo Williams, Mr Mark ‘except’, insert Syms, Mr Robert Williams, Stephen Teather, Sarah Willott, Jenny ‘sections 8 and 9 and’. Thornton, Mike Wilson, Mr Rob Amendment 39, page 29, line 36, at end insert— Thurso, John Wollaston, Dr Sarah ‘(2A) Sections 8 and 9 shall not come into force until a Welsh Timpson, Mr Edward Wright, Jeremy Government Minister has laid a report before the National Wright, Simon Tomlinson, Justin Assembly for Wales containing a statement to the effect that the Turner, Mr Andrew Yeo, Mr Tim Welsh Government, with regard to the Statement of Funding Tyrie, Mr Andrew Young, rh Sir George Policy, is content with the fairness of the arrangements for Uppal, Paul Zahawi, Nadhim allocating funding from the UK Government to Wales. Vara, Mr Shailesh Tellers for the Noes: (2B) Sections 8 and 9 shall be suspended following any Vickers, Martin Mark Hunter and substantive reform, amendment or other alteration of the Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Claire Perry arrangements mentioned in subsection (2A), until the process under subsection (2A) has been repeated.’. Question accordingly negatived. Amendment 4, in title, line 3, leave out ‘a rate’ and insert ‘rates’. Clause 8 Mr Gauke rose— WELSH RATE OF INCOME TAX Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): On a point The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David of order, Mr Chope. If the four people who voted in Gauke): I beg to move amendment 21, page 8, leave out favour of new clause 4 want to express an opinion on line 23 and insert— one side of the argument or the other later this evening, ‘(1) Part 4A of GOWA 2006 (as inserted by section 6) is is there not a case that you should weigh the voices? amended as follows. (2) In section 116A(1) (overview), after “Part” insert “— The Temporary Chair: That could be considered. I (a) Chapter 2 confers on the Assembly power to set a rate have always been keen that we should allow the minority of income tax to be paid by Welsh taxpayers, and to express their opinion in the Chamber without having (b) ”. it suppressed. (3) After Chapter 1 insert—’. Mr Gauke: It is a great pleasure to serve under your This amendment and amendment 19 ensure that the overview provision in new section 116A(1) of GOWA 2006 relating to the chairmanship this evening, Mr Chope, and to set out Assembly power to set a rate of income tax can only come into the Government’s position on clauses 8 and 9 and the force, like the other provisions relating to that power, following a Government amendments. I will also take the opportunity yes vote in a referendum. to comment on the amendments tabled by others and will have the chance to debate taxation powers with the The Temporary Chair (Mr Christopher Chope): With shadow Secretary of State for Wales, which I am sure this it will be convenient to discuss the following: will bring back many happy memories for him of serving Amendment 2, page 8, line 36, leave out ‘only’ and on Finance Bills. insert ‘more than’. Subject to the outcome of a referendum, clause 8 Amendment 3, page 8, line 36, leave out ‘only one amends the Government of Wales Act 2006 to introduce rate’ and insert ‘up to three rates’. a Welsh rate of income tax to be paid by those defined This amendment is proposed to implement the recommendations of as Welsh taxpayers. Clause 9 amends the Income Tax the Silk Commission that the Welsh Government have the power to Act 2007 to set out how the Welsh rate of income tax set different rates of tax for different income bands. determines the Welsh basic, higher and additional rates Government amendments 22 to 28. of income tax. It also defines the income that will be Amendment 16, page 12, line 34, after ‘Assembly’, taxed at those rates. insert I shall start with Government amendments 19 and ‘and each House of Parliament’. 21. The income tax provisions in clause 8 form part of a Amendment 6, page 12, line 37, at end add— new part 4A of the 2006 Act, which is introduced by clause 6. Part 4A’s introductory section includes a reference ‘(2) The Secretary of State shall review the impact on the to the income tax provisions in chapter 2. The provisions Exchequer effects of the provisions in this section on residents who live within 50 miles of the Wales/England border and the in clause 6 will come into force two months after this impact on the prospects for tax competition within the UK, and Bill receives Royal Assent. However, the income tax place a copy of the review in the Library of the House of provisions in clause 8 and 9 can of course be brought Commons.’. into force only following a yes vote in a referendum. 941 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 942

[Mr Gauke] about Welsh taxpayers under this legislation? Will he confirm for the House that that would designate all Amendment 19 therefore removes the reference to chapter 2 MEPs in Wales as Welsh taxpayers, including Kay from clause 6, and amendment 21 reinserts the reference Swinburne, a Conservative, who does not live in Wales? into clause 8, bringing the commencement of the reference into line with the rest of the income tax provisions. That Mr Gauke: All Welsh MEPs will be Welsh taxpayers. will ensure that the amended Act accurately reflects the I will deal with the amendments the hon. Gentleman legislative competence of the Assembly at a given point. mentions, although I do not think that they would The provisions in clause 9 concerning the Welsh rate achieve symmetry. I note that he was not very clear in have been revised since the draft Bill. That necessitated responding to my point that only a little while ago he changes to the power to allow for further consequential said that devolution of income tax to Wales was a Tory changes to be made under secondary legislation introduced trap, or something of the sort. Now he proposes that by clause 8 in new section 116I of the 2006 Act to devolving 10p is insufficient and that it should be 15p. I ensure that it continued to work as intended. Government do not know whether he holds both views at the moment, amendments 22, 27 and 28 make further technical changes or just one. I will certainly give way if he can provide to that power in order to clarify that proposed new some clarity on that point. section 11B does not impose a charge to income tax. Rather, the effect of the new section 11B is to apply the Owen Smith: Of course, they are entirely reconcilable, Welsh rates of income tax to a Welsh taxpayer’s non-savings as I shall explain later. However, I did not hear an income. answer from the Exchequer Secretary on whether Kay On Government amendments 23 to 26, the power in Swinburne, the Conservative MEP for Wales, who still new section 116I also allows an order to be made to lives in Ledbury in England, would be designated as a ensure that HMRC can continue to operate the PAYE Welsh taxpayer under the terms of the Bill. That strikes system effectively in the event that the Assembly passes me as an extraordinary oversight by a Conservative a Welsh rate resolution at a late stage in the preceding Minister. tax year. Such an order would require employers to continue to operate PAYE on the basis of the information Mr Gauke: I will repeat what I said: Welsh MEPs will issued by HMRC, rather than the correct tax position be Welsh taxpayers. I am not sure that I can be any for a specified period. The tax position of employees clearer. would ultimately be correct over the course of the tax On the extent of income tax devolution, there is a year. careful judgment to be made. Devolving an element of The scenario I have set out would also apply if, for income tax increases the financial accountability of the whatever reason, the Assembly did not pass a rate-setting Assembly and the Welsh Government in three important resolution at all, assuming that that had not previously ways. First, it will enable the Assembly to fund more of been announced by the Welsh Government. Although I the spending for which it is responsible. Secondly, the accept that that is unlikely to arise in practice, it is Welsh Government will be able to vary the levels of important to recognise that the Assembly has the option tax and spending in Wales. Thirdly, while the Welsh not to pass a rate if it so chooses. Amendments 23 to 26 Government currently control many key levers to generate therefore extend the order-making power to cover that economic growth in Wales such as education, skills, scenario. I hope that hon. Members will support those housing and planning, the resulting economic performance amendments and Government amendments 19, 21, 27 currently has no impact on their budget. Devolving an and 28. element of income tax will directly link the Welsh In amendment 41, I was pleased to see an amendment Government’s budget to their economic decisions. from the hon. Members for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) and for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) that supports the principle 7.30 pm of income tax devolution, although I note that their latest approach would not provide Wales with quite the Mr Hanson: What will happen to the people residing same outcome that they have now proposed for Scotland. in England who, as the Minister’s hon. Friends have None the less, it is progress. Although I confess to not said, already use services in Wales such as the health having previously studied the issue very closely, I was service? Many people on the border who live in England not sure whether the Labour party opposed income tax use health and education services in Wales. Is it equitable devolution or thought that there was not enough of it. that they do not pay the level of tax that might be levied No doubt we will receive an explanation later. by the Welsh Assembly in future?

Owen Smith rose— Mr Gauke: As the right hon. Gentleman knows, the question of who is a Welsh taxpayer is dependent on Mr Gauke: Perhaps we will receive an explanation who resides in Wales. I take it from what he says that he immediately. I will happily give the hon. Gentleman is opposed in principle to the devolution of income tax. that opportunity. He is nodding his head as if to say yes. He will be aware that his party has tabled an amendment suggesting that Owen Smith: I am grateful to the Exchequer Secretary, 15p, not 10p, should be devolved to the Welsh Government. and this of course brings back warm memories of time I do not know how he reconciles his view with that of spent debating Finance Bills. He failed to mention our his Front Benchers. amendments 38 and 39—I presume he will do so in due course—which seek to give symmetry between Scotland Mr Hanson: I support my hon. Friends’ amendment and Wales in relation to tax powers. While I am on my to look at how this impacts across the board. The feet, may I ask him to return to what he said earlier Exchequer Secretary must accept that there are people 943 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 944 in Shrewsbury, Herefordshire and Worcestershire who we are talking about a partial devolution, there is still use services in Wales. Would he support—I am not quite a lot of money coming from the block grant and saying that I support this—a Welsh Assembly Government any of my constituents who are using public services charging for services used in Wales and paid for by will, of course, have paid their fair share. Welsh taxpayers but also used by English people who do not contribute to the Welsh tax burden for those Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend makes two valuable services? points. I presume that his very good argument about the block grant would be weakened if the devolved amount Mr Gauke: This is not about charging for public was 15p rather than 10p. services. We have devolution of income tax in Scotland, where the issues that the right hon. Gentleman has mentioned may arise. I am surprised that, as a distinguished Geraint Davies: The Minister has made the case that, shadow Minister, he appears to be taking a position at if the Welsh economy expands relative to the English odds with his own Front Benchers. economy, the new regime—the Welsh Exchequer, as it were—would gain. However, the corollary of that, of Owen Smith rose— course, is that if the English economy grows faster than the Welsh economy as a result of the current Government Mr Gauke: Perhaps if I give way to the hon. Gentleman generating growth through a London housing bubble, he will explain the apparent contradiction between his Wales will lose out. Why is the Minister putting only amendments and a statement that seems to involve one half of the argument when this could in fact be a opposition to the devolution of income tax altogether. hidden trap?

Owen Smith: There is absolutely no contradiction on Mr Gauke: One of the attributes of devolving an our part. The Minister has come very late to the debate; element of income tax is that it will ensure that the I do not know why the Secretary of State does not feel Welsh Government have the incentives to grow the able to answer these questions, but that is for him to economy as strongly as possible. I am rather surprised respond to. We have said throughout that we have never that the hon. Gentleman has so little faith in the Welsh thought that income tax devolution to Wales was a Government that he does not want to encourage this priority. We do not think there is a significant appetite opportunity and that he does not have the confidence for it in Wales, and we consider that it creates a Tory that, by pursuing the right policies, the Welsh economy trap in two respects. The Conservative party is committed, can grow significantly. I would have thought that that is in Wales and across the rest of the UK, to cutting taxes what he wanted. further for the wealthiest people. The Secretary of State has said that he wants to do that. He has further said Geraint Davies: The Minister knows that investment that he favours tax competition, with Wales able to and economic development in Wales would deliver jobs undercut England. We are not in favour of that. However, and that that would reduce social security costs and given that in the Bill the Secretary of State has drawn a increase income tax. There is no proposition for social clear line between the quantum of income tax that is security to be devolved, so a lot of the benefits will be in nominally to be devolved to Wales and the amount of England. What is more, with this new manifestation of borrowing that will be afforded to the Welsh Government, the policy—this half-cocked version—there is a real and given that £1.7 billion has been cut out of the Welsh danger that, if a London-centric recovery occurs, Wales budget, particularly in capital, we are in favour of will lose out. increasing the amount of money that they might borrow. Our 10p to 15p change would achieve that, if the Welsh people agreed to it in a referendum. Mr Gauke: Again, I am not sure that a contribution from the Labour Back Benches is entirely aligned with Mr Gauke: I am grateful for that lengthy speech. I the views of those on the Labour Front Bench. may have come late to the debate, but it is perfectly clear that Labour has been all over the place on this matter. I Geraint Davies: We’ve got a democracy here! come back to what I said about the advantages of devolving income tax. One of those, very significantly, The Temporary Chair (Mr Christopher Chope): Order. is that there is much greater accountability for the Only one person can speak at a time. Welsh Government, because if they are able effectively to use the powers that they currently have to get the Welsh economy to grow, they will benefit from that as a Mr Gauke: I am sorry that I have clearly touched a consequence of increased revenues. nerve with the hon. Gentleman. [Interruption.]

Mr Harper: Perhaps I can help to answer the question The Temporary Chair: Order. asked by the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson). First, my constituents who have to use the NHS in Mr Gauke: I continue to touch a nerve with the hon. Wales do not want to, would love not to and would like Gentleman. If tax receipts grow in Wales as a consequence to use the NHS in England. Working with the Secretary of greater economic growth—after all, the Welsh of State for Health, I hope we will be able to put that in Government have powers over education, skills, housing place by the end of this year, as he has pledged in the and planning—it will be to the advantage of Wales and House. the Welsh Government. I have no doubt that it is the Secondly, all UK taxpayers make a contribution to desire of the Welsh Government to do the best for the the Exchequer, which supplies the block grant to Wales Welsh economy. This is an opportunity to benefit from that, of course, part-funds public services. Given that growth and increased tax receipts. 945 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 946

Owen Smith: I am grateful to the Minister for giving seven times more effective than the Work programme in way; he is being very generous with his time. This is like Wales, and has resulted in Wales having higher growth all our yesterdays, in that we are debating, by implication and, indeed, better unemployment figures than anywhere at least, the Laffer curve. He said a moment ago that if else in the UK. Wales were to pursue the right policies, it would see economic growth by deploying these new powers. Does Mr Gauke: It is worth pointing out that 12,000 new he mean by that that taxes in Wales should be cut, as the jobs, as I understand it, have been created under the Secretary of State has said he would do? If so, which Work programme in Wales, but I think that I should taxes does the Exchequer Secretary propose to cut and make a little progress, Mr Chope. by how much? The change involves creating incentives for the Welsh Government, which of course means transferring some Mr Gauke: That is a matter for the Welsh Government. risks to them. Specifically, the Welsh Government’s They might want to pursue tax policies, but I repeat that budget will benefit if the income tax base grows faster policies on education, skills, housing and planning all in Wales than the UK average, but it will be adversely contribute towards economic growth. The situation at affected if growth in Wales is slower. Crucially, the the moment is that the Welsh Government controls larger the proportion of income tax that we devolve, the many of the key levers to generate economic growth, greater the potential impact on the Welsh Government’s but does not currently benefit from any resulting economic budget. Devolving 15p of income tax would increase performance through the impact on its budget. This the size of the impacts by 50% compared with devolving devolution of tax will address that situation. Equally, to 10p. There is a balance to be found between risks and go back to the point made by the hon. Member for rewards, and at this stage we see no evidence to suggest Swansea West (Geraint Davies), it means that if bad that we should move away from the Silk commission’s policies are pursued and they damage growth, that will assessment, which resulted in the recommendation to have a consequence for the Welsh economy. I am sure devolve 10p of income tax. That recommendation is that he is not suggesting that the Welsh Government now reflected in the Bill. will pursue growth-damaging policies. Owen Smith: Will the Minister give way a final time? Geraint Davies rose— Mr Gauke: I remember debates on Finance Bills in Owen Smith rose— which it was very difficult to speak for long without a Mr Gauke: I will give way one last time to each hon. contribution from the hon. Gentleman, and nothing Gentleman. has changed. I will give way again.

Geraint Davies: Does the Minister accept that although Owen Smith: I aim to entertain and to scrutinise some powers to affect economic performance are in legislation properly. Simply on the question of risk, will Wales, the mass of powers are in this place in terms of the Exchequer Secretary tell us what risk the Welsh the Exchequer, our relationship with the Bank of England Government will bear in relation to the potential costs and macro-economic policies across the United Kingdom? of the change? We know that it will cost between With the budget that it has, Wales alone cannot determine £40 million and £42 million to do it in Scotland. Will it its economic future. To say so is simply misleading, and be more or less for Wales? How much will it be? he should withdraw it. It is a disgrace. Mr Gauke: At this point, it is not possible to say what Mr Gauke: The hon. Gentleman may say that the the cost will be. I must say that, with the gain in greater mass of powers are here, but we are talking about a accountability and the greater devolution of powers, relative test involving Wales versus the rest of the United hon. Members should welcome the change. The hon. Kingdom. United Kingdom policies apply across the Gentleman is aware that the issue is one for a future United Kingdom; the specific policy of the Welsh referendum. Whether the Welsh people want to go Government may result in changes in growth in the down such a route is a question for them, and such economy and the impact of that on the budget. matters will clearly be relevant to that debate. However, on having a 10p rate rather than a 15p rate, I hear the Geraint Davies rose— arguments in favour of essentially no devolution whatsoever and those for having a larger sum, but we believe that Mr Gauke: I will now give way to the hon. Member we have got the balance right. I hope that hon. Members for Pontypridd. I think that I have—[Interruption.] will accept the balance achieved by the Silk commission recommendation, and that the hon. Gentleman will not The Temporary Chair (Mr Christopher Chope): Order. persist with amendment 41. The Minister is not giving way to the hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies). We must have some 7.45 pm order. There are not many Members in the Chamber, but they seem to be making a mockery of the rules of Mr Mark Williams: I congratulate my hon. Friend order. I think that the Minister is giving way to the hon. and the Wales Office on their work on this matter. I Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith). endorse the principles behind the Silk commission and the legislation. Although my hon. Friend alluded to Owen Smith: I merely wanted to ask whether, while Silk, he has not yet mentioned the principles behind talking about good and bad policies, the Minister would the lockstep and not giving the Welsh Government the care to congratulate the Welsh Government on the capacity to vary rates between the bands. Some of us good policy of Jobs Growth Wales. The policy has been still have concerns about that. 947 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 948

Mr Gauke: I am grateful to my hon. Friend because is arguing that the powers are needed to incentivise the he takes me neatly on to the next line of my speech. Welsh Government to develop economic growth, but he Amendments 1 to 4, which were tabled by Plaid is placing a lockstep on those powers, making it impossible Cymru, relate to the single Welsh rate of income tax—the to use them. It is essentially a handcuff on those powers. so-called lockstep system. Fundamentally, income tax There is a huge contradiction in what he is saying. devolution must work within the integrated UK-wide income tax system. It must work for Wales by increasing Mr Gauke: I do not accept that the powers are the accountability of the Assembly and the Welsh impossible to use. One can debate whether the rates Government, and it must work for the UK by maintaining should be varied, but the fact that there will be greater the stability of the tax system. accountability will benefit Wales as a whole. We must Following a thorough and robust assessment of the balance the improvement in accountability in Wales Silk commission recommendations, we have determined with the difficulties that might arise with tax competition that that would be most effectively achieved through a in the higher rates, which would be likely to damage the single Welsh rate of income tax that applied to all tax base in the UK as a whole. That is why we proceeded bands. There are two main reasons for that. First, the with a lockstep. pooling and redistribution of tax revenues is a key On amendment 6, tabled by the hon. Member for feature of our fiscal model and ensures that wealth is Pontypridd, I assure the Committee that the Government shared among the regions and countries of the UK. always consider the impacts of potential policy options The income tax structure is a key mechanism for achieving and keep policies under review. An assessment of the wealth redistribution. It is surely right, therefore, that potential impacts of devolving elements of income tax UK-wide redistribution is decided at the UK level. The to the Welsh Assembly is summarised in the documents lockstep ensures that that will continue to be the case. accompanying the introduction of the Wales Bill, in Secondly, although there are many benefits of tax particular the Command Paper and the impact assessment. devolution, it is not without risk. Specifically, we need That assessment explains how the proposed system of to minimise the potential for harmful tax competition, income tax devolution achieves the key benefits identified increased opportunities for tax avoidance and evasion, by the Silk commission, increasing the accountability of and higher administrative burdens. It is therefore crucial the Assembly and Welsh Government and providing that when we devolve taxes, we do so in a way that flexibility over the levels of tax and spending in Wales, minimises those risks. In particular, the Government while also minimising the risks of tax competition in have consistently been clear that tax devolution should the UK whereby significantly different tax rates could not benefit one part of the UK to the detriment of affect the behaviour of people living close to the border. another. Tax devolution is not about moving economic The Government’s assessment of the Silk commission’s activity from one area to another, but about empowering proposals look closely at the potential for harmful tax the devolved Administrations to generate additional competition in the UK, particularly given the populous growth and increasing their accountability by linking border between England and Wales. As a result of that their budgets to their decisions. That incentivises the work, the Government rejected a system of three devolved Administrations and increases their accountability independent Welsh rates of income tax, instead proposing to the people, in this case in Wales. the lockstep system. As I have previously explained, Without the lockstep, the Welsh Government could that system specifically helps to minimise the risk of substantially lower the rates of tax for the upper bands harmful tax competition in the UK. I hope hon. Members in Wales without making any change to the basic rate. agree that the assessment we have undertaken is suitably That would be a considerable incentive for high earners robust, and that they are reassured by our commitment to move across the border, which would benefit Wales, to keep the policy under review. Clause 22 requires the but would be to the detriment of the UK as a whole. Government to report annually on the implementation Instead, the lockstep system will enable the Welsh and operation of the finance provisions of the Bill, so Government to vary the levels of tax and spending in we will keep Parliament informed in that regard. On Wales, but the size of any differences will be unlikely to that basis I hope that hon. Members will withdraw lead to tax competition. For example, they would be amendment 6. similar to the existing differences between the levels of council tax in neighbouring local authorities in Wales. Amendment 16 was tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) as recommended Devolving an element of income tax is therefore best in the Silk commission’s report of November 2012, and achieved using the lockstep system. That will enable us clause 8 provides for the Comptroller and Auditor to deliver substantial benefits to Wales, while continuing General to report directly to the National Assembly for to redistribute wealth throughout the income tax system Wales on HMRC’s administration of the Welsh rate of and minimise the risk of tax competition. I hope that I income tax. That will provide independent assurance to have helped hon. Members to understand our rationale the Assembly on HMRC’s performance in administering for the lockstep system. I therefore ask them not to this tax. The Comptroller and Auditor General currently press amendments 1 to 4. reports to Parliament on HMRC’s administration of its Jonathan Edwards rose— business, including the operation of the UK’s income tax system. Should the Welsh rate of income tax be Mr Gauke: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will take this introduced, it will be operated as part of the UK opportunity to say that he will not press those amendments. income tax system. The NAO would therefore be able to report to Parliament in relation to the Welsh rate as part Jonathan Edwards: Does the hon. Gentleman not of its existing remit, and clause 8 ensures that reporting understand that he has contradicted himself? Indeed, to the Welsh Assembly on the Welsh rate will additionally the whole Wales Bill is contradictory. The hon. Gentleman fall within the NAO’s remit. 949 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 950

Mr Harper: My hon. Friend will know from Second that hon. Members will therefore withdraw amendments 38 Reading that my concern is about companies based in and 39. I hope that my comments have been of assistance my constituency that employ people, some of whom are to the Committee, and that clauses 8 and 9 and the resident in England and some in Wales, because there Government amendments will be added to the Bill this would be an administrative burden on those companies evening. should there be a Welsh rate of income tax. I think the Minister has addressed this point, but will he confirm Jonathan Edwards: I wish to speak to amendments 1, whether that burden—to the extent that it exists—will 2, 3 and 4, in my name and the names of my colleagues effectively be reported not just to the Welsh Assembly in Plaid Cymru. We intend to press amendment 1 to a but also to this House? Members who represent English Division at the appropriate time. residents have a legitimate interest in how that complexity The lockstep income tax power that is on offer in this will hit local firms. If the Minister could be absolutely Bill is not the one recommended by the Silk commission. clear on that, there will be no need to press the amendment We see two ways forward to preserve the integrity of to a vote. the original Silk proposals. Either the lockstep income tax power should proceed without a referendum, which Mr Gauke: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that amendment 1 would achieve, or the Bill should be point and I hope I can reassure him. There already exist amended as per the Silk commission recommendation mechanisms for scrutiny in relation to the Welsh rate by on income tax, which amendments 2, 3 and 4 seek to Parliament through existing vires. HMRC’s accounts do, thereby restoring the need for a referendum, as Silk would contain specific information on the Welsh rate, envisaged, on an income tax sharing arrangement without and they will continue to be laid before Parliament. a lockstep. Hon. Members will be presented with the levels of spending incurred by HMRC in administering the Welsh I remind hon. Members that their parties, through rate and the amounts of revenue collected. I believe that their representatives on the commission, agreed to those existing channels provide an appropriate level of the Silk recommendations. Indeed, the Labour party’s scrutiny for hon. Members in relation to the Welsh rate, representative on the commission was the esteemed and I hope that addresses my hon. Friend’s point. former Assembly Member, Sue Essex, who is of course I also think it right for additional insurance to be a former Finance Minister in the Welsh Government. provided to the Assembly via the Comptroller and The purpose of amendment 1 is to ensure that the Auditor General’s report, and we anticipate that that referendum is on the ability of Wales to vary each report would be produced to a timetable similar to that income tax band individually, rather than the lockstep of the wider report to Parliament on HMRC’s accounts. that is proposed in the Bill. No doubt my hon. Friend will shortly contribute to the I believe that we should not have a referendum on debate, but I have set out the existing mechanisms for these powers. The borrowing powers that will accompany scrutiny that will be available to Members of this Parliament, the income tax powers would be essential to move the and I hope he is reassured. economy forward. Capacity will increase with the income On amendments 38 and 39, we have been working tax powers. However, I accept the position of my party closely with the Welsh Government on Welsh funding. that a referendum should be held on the original Silk In particular, the Government recognise there has been recommendations. In my view, the principle of fiscal convergence between the levels of funding in Wales and devolution has already been conceded in this Bill—we England since devolution, and that this is a significant will discuss the minor taxes next week—so the case for a concern in Wales. As a result, in October 2012 we referendum is not very strong. agreed to implement a joint process to review the levels Amendments 2, 3 and 4 would alter the Bill so that of funding in Wales and England in advance of the the lockstep is removed from the income tax power, spending review. If convergence is forecast to occur over giving Wales the ability to vary income tax band rates the course of the spending review period, options will independently of each other, subject to a referendum, be discussed to address the issue in a fair and affordable as per the original recommendation of the Silk commission. manner, based on a shared understanding of all the As the Bill stands, the lockstep on the ability to vary available evidence. income tax in Wales means that all three bands can be In advance of the 2013 spending round, a joint review moved up or down only in tandem, as is the case in was therefore undertaken by the two Governments and Scotland. I hesitate to point out that those powers have the outcome set out in a written ministerial statement. never been used in Scotland, even though they have The review determined that funding levels are not expected been available since devolution in 1999. Of course, the to converge during the period to 2015-16, and in fact an Silk recommendation was for the power to vary income element of divergence is forecast to occur. The review tax band rates independently of each other. In reality also determined that relative funding levels in Wales the lockstep kills the ability to vary income tax at all, are within the range recommended by the Holtham which strengthens the argument that I put to the Minister commission. in an intervention—the lockstep hinders what the Government claim to be trying to achieve in the Bill, These arrangements assure that we have a shared which is to incentivise the Welsh Government to develop understanding of funding levels in Wales and a process their economy. Without the ability to introduce innovative is in place to consider options should convergence be income tax policy, how are they meant to achieve that? forecast to resume. In no way would the devolution of income tax have any impact on these arrangements, and it is certainly not the case that income tax devolution 8pm would lock in the current level of funding. These The Tory and Liberal Democrat UK coalition arrangements therefore provide a firm basis for proceeding Government put narrow party interests before the Welsh with the new financial powers in the Bill, and I hope national interest and added the lockstep to the income 951 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 952 tax powers, riding roughshod over not only the people as well as the Chair of the Select Committee on Political of Wales but the supposedly autonomous parties and and Constitutional Reform, also gave evidence. When colleagues in Wales. They ignored the fact that they had the Welsh Affairs Committee visited Scotland following signed up to the Silk proposals via their own commissioner. the initial Silk report, there was much excitement about Meanwhile, the Labour party, at its recent spring conference its proposals. Academics, economists, civil servants, in Llandudno, said that it wanted for Wales what its Ministers and Back Benchers in the Scottish Parliament devolution commission has settled on in Scotland. That were all in favour of Silk’s proposals for Wales, as goes beyond the Tory lockstep, with the added handicap opposed to what they have in the Scotland Act 2012. that the band can be moved only one way—upwards. I need not remind Labour Members present that the That is why I have labelled it “lockstep-plus”. This goes Labour First Minister, Carwyn Jones, said that the against everything that First Minister Carwyn Jones lockstep is a “Tory trap” and that it should be removed. and Finance Minister Jane Hutt were saying for months He said the lockstep was “a long way short” of what prior to the Bill being introduced by the UK Government. was considered to be good for Wales, adding that They argued that the lockstep must be removed and Wales be given the ability to vary the bands individually, “binding the rates together is not right for Wales”. as recommended by the Silk Commission. Having said That is a clear indication of the need to remove the that, we support amendment 41 from the Labour party, lockstep on income tax varying powers. which would increase the fiscal responsibility of the We in Plaid Cymru are seeking, through amendment 21 Welsh Government up from 10p to 15p. and several other amendments, to maintain the integrity of the original cross-party Silk commission Hywel Williams: Does my hon. Friend find it peculiar recommendations. We believe that the Welsh economy that Labour’s position is to allow an increase in taxes in needs that sensible package of reforms in order to Wales, thereby handing a tax advantage to England? Its increase its ability to bring about economic growth and only policy on tax competition is to move it in favour of create jobs. We believe that it is a necessary tool, which our friends in England. will help us to begin to rebalance the economy of the British state by giving greater power to the nations and Jonathan Edwards: That is an important intervention. regions, and will help Wales to begin to lift itself from The Labour party’s position is that it is worried about the bottom of the UK economic league table. tax competition, yet, based on its tax policy, the only In its present form, the Bill requires Wales to hold a tax competition that could happen would favour England referendum on the lockstep model of income tax and and other parts of the British state. win it in order to gain access to the higher limit applying to borrowing to fund investment. We believe that Wales Owen Smith: Let us be absolutely clear: Labour has needs access to that money in order to invest sensibly in not argued, and is not arguing, for a tax increase in infrastructure, secure a good return on its investment, Wales. We know that the Conservative party is saying and provide jobs that will have a beneficial effect on the that it wants to cut taxes for the wealthiest in Wales. We state of the Welsh economy. We are all mindful of the are seeking to future-proof the legislation so that a huge cuts in its capital budget that the National Assembly Labour Government in Wales would be able to mitigate has suffered under the coalition Government. against further Tory tax cuts for the wealthiest, and introduce tax justice in Wales. Given that the lockstep was not the compromise agreed by the parties during the Silk commission’s Jonathan Edwards: That is the crux of the argument, deliberations, it would surely make more sense to devolve and the division between the Labour party and my the model without the need for a costly referendum. It is party. My view is that we should empower the National simply an income tax-sharing model, with a 90-10 split Assembly and have a mature debate in Wales about between the United Kingdom and Welsh governments. what the level of taxation should be. I think the hon. Giving the Welsh Government the ability to vary tax is Gentleman is aware of where my political conscience a theoretical exercise that, as the Treasury well knows, lies—I tabled an amendment to the Finance Bill to cannot become reality with a lockstep—hence the strings reinstate the top rate to 50p. Let us have the debate. Let that are attached in the Bill. The big prize of what we us trust our Assembly Members to have the debate and propose would be the increased borrowing capacity that let us see the National Assembly mature. The one thing I believe is required to help the Welsh economy to that devolving responsibility for these powers will do is regenerate and renew itself. lead to the maturing of the Assembly. Hopefully, we It is clear that all the other parties are now putting will see the growth and development of our democracy narrow self-interest ahead of the Welsh economy by in Wales. attaching conditions and caveats to Wales’s gaining of When the Welsh Affairs Committee carried out the greater fiscal and financial powers. The Tories and pre-legislative scrutiny of the Bill, we had independent Liberal Democrats have their condition of the lockstep, witness after witness—I hasten to add that my hon. while Labour has its caveat in regard to reform of the Friend the Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) had Barnett formula, on which its members continue to taken over my role in the Committee for that period, as contort and refuse to commit themselves despite citing I was enjoying my paternity leave with my son Llywelyn— it as a precondition for greater financial powers for giving evidence, except of course the Secretary of State Wales. and Treasury Ministers, arguing that the lockstep should As for the debate in Wales, Andrew R. T. Davies and be removed. Those giving evidence included the leaders Kirsty Williams have announced some exciting tax policies of all the parties in the Assembly, not least the leader of that they wish to pursue in relation to the ability to vary the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives in Wales. taxes. Unfortunately, their colleagues down here in London Several distinguished economists, academics and experts, are completely undermining what they have pledged to 953 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 954

[Jonathan Edwards] much hope—and for the Labour Members present to support what their party in Wales is saying by supporting the people of Wales in various policy announcements. us in the Lobby later. That is a big hit to their credibility, which may be why the Secretary of State introduced the lockstep: perhaps Glyn Davies: This is a very important debate. The Bill he wanted to undermine Andrew R. T. Davies. is incredibly wide ranging and has lots of aspects to it, There has already been much public debate in Welsh but the one issue that dominates it, as much the most civil society about the issue of the lockstep and the important aspect, is the devolution of meaningful tax-raising power to vary income tax bands individually in Wales. powers to the National Assembly for Wales, and that There has been controversy as the lockstep row has involves a significant part of income tax. In doing that, engulfed the Conservatives. The Welsh Secretary has the Bill will deliver financial accountability to the Welsh claimed that the mechanism would not prevent Welsh Government, which has been lacking since the National Ministers from using the powers—although they have Assembly for Wales was established. not been used in Scotland since 1999—and has suggested Let me give some context by saying something about that a 1p cut across all three bands would increase my own background. In 1997, I was opposed to the Wales’s competitiveness, a claim which, according to establishment of the National Assembly for Wales, because the Welsh Government, would cost £200 million a year. I thought we were considering setting up a body that Meanwhile, the leader of the Conservatives in the Assembly was not meaningful. I recall being at the count in rejected the lockstep in his submission to the Welsh Llandrindod Wells when the result for Carmarthenshire Affairs Committee hearing on the powers, prompting a came through, and there were great celebrations because damaging fall-out with the Secretary of State. All the a yes vote had been snatched from defeat at the last Tory Assembly Members were seconded down here to minute. I recall driving home and thinking to myself No. 10 Downing street to try to repair some of the that that was a key moment, and from then on I have damage. taken the view that the National Assembly for Wales We are often given the impression that it is the should have law-making powers and meaningful tax-raising Treasury that does the overruling in all these matters. If powers. If we did not have those two powers, we were Scotland does not have it, Wales surely cannot have it. creating something that was simply not worth while. However, the ability to vary income tax bands individually, That is why this Bill is particularly important and we as per Silk, would truly allow for the ability actually to are dealing here with the key part. vary income tax in Wales, and would be a significant It does not make any sense to have a Welsh Government step in the maturing of our democracy. As I said in our who claim credit and say how good they are whenever first debate this afternoon, it would provide a very they do something the people of Wales approve of but positive narrative for the Westminster parties in relation whenever something is done that the people of Wales to Scotland, demonstrating that they were serious about do not approve of say, “We cannot do that because we reforming the settlement of the UK and going beyond do not have enough money from Westminster.” They what Scotland has at present. transfer the blame, and they do not become a meaningful until they are responsible for raising their own taxation. Mr Mark Williams: As the hon. Gentleman knows, I All of us know that from other things we might have have a great deal of sympathy with him in regard to the done in our lives. When I was chair of Berriew community lockstep, and, indeed, with one of his Select Committee council, a very small village council, the biggest debate colleagues who voted to remove it from the Bill. However, we had in the year was about whether we should levy 1p he is ending his speech—I think it is coming to an end: I on the rates, just as a precept. It was much the biggest think he has reached the last sheet—on an incredibly debate because it involved balancing what we wanted to negative note. Does he accept that, in ensuring that our spend with the demands on the ratepayers and it made National Assembly has fiscal accountability, the Bill us think clearly about the decisions we were taking. The still represents a huge advance on the status quo? I same thing applied when I was the finance chairman of sincerely hope that he will support it on Third Reading Montgomeryshire district council. We had an all-day for that reason, whatever happens to his amendment debate every year about 1p on the rates, because again it this evening. was about balancing what the council wanted to spend against what we wanted to raise. That is what has Jonathan Edwards: Of course the hon. Gentleman is always been lacking in the National Assembly. right. We do support the Bill, but we want to use the opportunities provided by the Committee stage to I was a Member of the Assembly for eight years, at strengthen and improve it. In my view, the lockstep is one stage being the finance spokesman, and I would one provision that needs urgently to be removed. If the never use the term “budget” as to my mind it was always United Kingdom Government are determined to introduce an annual spending plan. It was not a genuine budget it, let us devolve it in the Bill and then have a referendum because it was not informing the people that it wanted on its removal. Why have a referendum on the lockstep money from them and that a balance was being struck mechanism? between spending and demanding money from the The Secretary of State has spoken before of his belief ratepayers. So I am strongly in favour of the income tax that Wales needs the ability to vary income tax in order proposal, because it is hugely important and it is why I to be competitive—spoken as a true Conservative—but really welcome the Bill. There are other parts of the Bill then does not offer a power that actually allows for any where my support is at varying levels, but the income variation in income tax. That is the huge contradiction tax proposal will be crucial. in the Bill as it stands. It is time for him and his My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will Government to put their money where their mouth is know that I have always had some doubts about the and support our amendments—I am not holding out need for a referendum. If we believe passionately that a 955 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 956 body must have tax-raising powers to be a viable Mr Gauke: The hon. Gentleman will be aware that, parliamentary body, we should commit ourselves in our under the provisions in this Bill, a tax cut for one rate of manifestos to going forward with this proposal and income tax will apply to every rate of income tax. Does then delivering it afterwards. I have come to accept that he understand that point, because that is what a lockstep for two reasons, one of which is that there is a general means? expectation because of the referendum in Scotland that there will be a referendum on income tax-raising powers Owen Smith: I entirely understand that point, absolutely, in Wales. completely and utterly. I also understand that the leader The second reason is that I want to stay as true as I of the Conservative party in Wales has placed on the can to the Silk commission report, which recommended record his desire to cut solely the top rate of tax— a referendum, and all parties signed up to that. In [Interruption.] The Secretary of State is muttering from pursuing this issue, I think I have to accept that there a sedentary position. I presume that he is referring to will be a referendum. his colleague, the leader of the Tory party in Wales, because it was he who called for a cut to the top rate of There has been a lot of discussion about the lockstep tax. We understand perfectly well how this legislation and the lack of freedom for the Welsh Government to will work in Wales, but we are not in favour of any one vary individual rates. There will be different views on part of Britain undercutting another through tax that, but I perfectly accept the rationale of the argument competition, which is unfortunately the position of the of the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr Secretary of State for Wales—[Interruption.] He keeps (Jonathan Edwards). I must say though that it diverts us chuntering from a sedentary position that I do not from the huge step forward that the Bill represents. understand it, but, dare I say, if he had greater faith in his own understanding of his own Bill, introduced in 8.15 pm this House with amendments tabled in his name, he The Bill gives the National Assembly for Wales—the would stand at the Dispatch Box to explain the Treasury Welsh Government—financial accountability for what position and the tax amendments. Unfortunately, he they do. We have two days of debate in Committee. By clearly does not understand it sufficiently not to have to giving income tax powers to the National Assembly, we rely on his colleague the Exchequer Secretary. We are are trying to create the foundation stone on which we extremely grateful to the Exchequer Secretary for turning can build a proper body in Cardiff Bay, serving, and up to act as a human shield for the Secretary of State answerable to, the people of Wales with true financial for Wales, but it is a crying shame that the Secretary of accountability. For that reason this proposal and the State and the Minister require his support. Wales Bill itself deserve our full support. Mr Gauke: There is no doubt that the Secretary of Owen Smith: It is a pleasure, Mr Hoyle, to serve State understands the measure but, given what we have under your chairmanship, and to call you by your true heard so far from the shadow Secretary of State, perhaps name. This clause is one of the most important in the it would have been better if one of the shadow Treasury Bill, so it is a shame that we do not have a huge amount team had been making the speech instead. They might of time to discuss it. There are many important questions have understood it. about how it will work in practice in Wales. The Exchequer Secretary attempted to answer some, but not all, of Owen Smith: The Exchequer Secretary can continue those questions, and there remains significant uncertainty to attempt to suggest that I do not understand the Bill, as to how income tax varying powers would work in but I understand it perfectly. I understand perfectly how Wales and what the real risks would be to the Welsh lockstep works, but equally understand that this Government’s budget and to the services on which the Government have cut taxes for the wealthiest in Britain. Welsh people rely through that budget. They have exclusively cut the additional 50p rate to 45p. I take some comfort from the Minister’s observation I also know that his party in Wales has proposed that it that there is probably a long time between today and would like to go further with Wales, so he will forgive us these measures being deployed in anger in Wales. Crucially, if we are suspicious of the “tax cuts for the wealthy” from our perspective, we have been clear about the motives of the Conservative party. I think we will triple lock—about knowing that this would be good for continue to be suspicious. Unless he would like to get to Wales and for the Welsh budget, that fair funding was his feet and tell us that he does not intend that his secured for Wales and that the Welsh people had assented colleagues in Wales should cut taxes for the wealthiest, at a referendum to these measures being employed in I suspect that he will not wish to intervene further. Wales. All of those three tests would have to be passed. On the subject of the complexity and cost of the Bill, However, there remains on our part significant concerns the Exchequer Secretary left us entirely without answers about the motivation behind these proposals from the about how it will work. In order to illustrate its complexity, Conservative Government. We are suspicious that the I highlighted that he has today moved a poorly drafted true motivation is to cut taxes in Wales for the wealthiest, clause that will see a Welsh Tory Member of the European as the current Government have done across the rest of Parliament who does not live in Wales and who does the UK. That suspicion is based on a very clear reading not have a residence of any description in Wales, but of the statement made by the leader of the Conservative who lives in England, designated as a Welsh taxpayer. party in the National Assembly, who, in a wide-ranging The logic of that is entirely lost on me, but I should have speech last year, explicitly called for cuts solely to the thought that he would want to check who his European top rate of tax in Wales. This is not a fantasy on our Members are in Wales and where they lived before part. The leader of the Tories says that he wants to cut he determined that they would get a tax break—in her just the top rate, and the Secretary of State wants tax case, a £700 tax break—were his Government to do competition through cutting across the board. what the Secretary of State for Wales has suggested and 957 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 958

[Owen Smith] implementation of part 3 of the Scotland Act, in which we were anticipating, as outlined in the Secretary cut all the tax bands in lockstep by 1%. That is the tax of State’s impact assessment to this Bill, a renewed cut that she would get in Wales, despite the fact that she and updated view on the costs associated with the does not actually live in Wales. implementation of these measures in Scotland. That has not been published today. It was not published in Jonathan Edwards: The hon. Gentleman’s point about April as the Ministers promised. Kay Swinburne is an interesting one. Based on that, That is a dereliction of duty, not least because it where does he expect that Stephen Kinnock will pay leaves us in Wales with no idea as to how much these taxes should he be successful in winning Aberavon? measures will cost. But we have reason to believe Would it be in Aberavon, in Copenhagen or where he and to fear that it will be a significant amount of pays tax at the moment, in a tax haven in Switzerland? money, because we know from the first report on the implementation of the Scotland Act that it will cost Owen Smith rose— more than £40 million to implement such measures in Scotland, and we know from the Government’s own Hon. Members: Just answer. impact assessment that it is likely to cost more in Wales. The reason is the porosity and populous nature of the Owen Smith: I intend to answer. I fully anticipate that border between England and Wales; 48% of the Welsh my friend, Mr Kinnock, were he to be so lucky as to win population and 10% of the English population live the forthcoming general election and be returned as the within 25 miles of that border, which means that fully hon. Member for Aberavon, a great and noble seat in 6.3 million people live along that border. In contrast, the Welsh Labour tradition, intends, as he has stated on just 4% of the Scottish population and just 0.5% of the the record, to live in Aberavon. The irony of this poorly English population live within 25 miles of the border drafted legislation that has been brought before us by between England and Scotland, which means that just those on the Treasury Bench today is that it would not 450,000 people live along that border. matter where he lived. He could live in Copenhagen or If it has taken so far, as the Government have conceded, in England and he would still, for the purposes of this £1.7 million to start the analysis of how these measures half-cocked Bill, be considered a Welsh taxpayer. I do will work in Scotland, how Scottish taxpayers will be not think that the people of Aberavon would understand identified, how a pay-as-you-earn system will work, that and I suspect that the people of Wales will not how employers will deal with it, what the nature of the understand why an English Tory MEP living in Ledbury information to be provided to newly designated Scottish will be deemed a Welsh taxpayer. taxpayers will be—if it is already £2 million-ish and Let me return to the point about the complexity, if I counting, and soon to be £40 million for Scotland, do may, and read a small section of the Bill to the Minister we not need to have some idea in Wales, as a part of for the delectation of the House. It is entitled “Close prudent management of Treasury finances, and Welsh connection with Wales or another part of the UK” and Government—eventually—finances, of much money it can be found in proposed new section 116G in clause 8. will cost the Welsh? If the Minister wants to offer us It says in subsections (3) and (4): some indication, I should be grateful, but at the moment “T”— we are in the dark, and in the dark we remain concerned the Welsh taxpayer— that the costs will be greater for Wales, and the disbenefits “has a close connection with a part of the UK if in that year— for Wales, therefore, potentially also greater. (a) T has 2 or more places of residence in the UK, In the light of the fact that there is such a long period (b) for at least part of the year, T’s main place of residence in before the measure comes into force, we will not press the UK is in that part of the UK, the amendments that we have tabled to the clause, but (c) the times in the year when T’s main place of residence is in we will maintain our concerns about the motivations that part of the UK comprise (in aggregate) more of the year than that lie behind it. We will continue to push for fair the times when T’s main place of residence is in each other part of funding for Wales, not to the detriment of Scotland but the UK (considered separately), and in the interests of the people of Wales, and we will (d) for at least part of the year, T lives at a place of residence in continue to ask the Minister to clarify what exactly this that part of the UK. measure will mean for the Welsh people, and whether (4) In this section ‘place’ includes a place on board a vessel or they will be better or worse off if the Bill were ever to be other means of transport.” enacted. I read those subsections for the enjoyment of the Leader of the House, who I am delighted to say has Mr Gauke: After what is a relatively short speech joined us, to point out what a ludicrously complex piece from the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith), I of drafting that is, and what a ludicrously complex Bill am still not entirely sure whether he is for or against it, it is. We point that out because attending that complexity but we are certainly for the devolution of income tax in is cost—enormous cost. the way set out in the clauses. I hope that the clauses The Secretary of State, or rather the Minister—the and the Government amendments will have the support Secretary of State did not answer because he was not at of the whole House, and that all other amendments will the Dispatch Box—could not tell us how much it would not be pressed. cost to implement these measures in Wales. That is a Amendment 21 agreed to. surprise. He also talked about accountability. He might have been a little more accountable for his own Department, because it is today that the Government and his Department 8.30 pm should have published the second annual report on the Proceedings interrupted (Programme Order, this day). 959 Wales Bill30 APRIL 2014 Wales Bill 960

The Chair put forthwith the Questions necessary for Barker, rh Gregory Halfon, Robert the disposal of the business to be concluded at that time Barwell, Gavin Hames, Duncan (Standing Order No. 83D). Bebb, Guto Hammond, rh Mr Philip Bellingham, Mr Henry Hammond, Stephen Amendments made: 22, page 11, line 5, at end insert Bingham, Andrew Hancock, Matthew ‘at the rates provided for’. Binley, Mr Brian Hands, rh Greg This amendment, and amendments 27 and 28, make changes to Blackwood, Nicola Harper, Mr Mark reflect the fact that section 11B of the Income Tax Act 2007 (as Boles, Nick Harris, Rebecca inserted by clause 9) and section 13 of that Act provide for the Bone, Mr Peter Hart, Simon rates at which income tax is charged rather than imposing the Brady, Mr Graham Heald, Oliver charge to income tax. Brake, rh Tom Heaton-Harris, Chris Amendment 23, page 11, line 14, at end insert— Bray, Angie Hemming, John Brazier, Mr Julian Henderson, Gordon ‘(2A) If the Treasury consider it necessary or expedient to do Bridgen, Andrew Hendry, Charles so, they may by order provide that— Bruce, Fiona Hinds, Damian (a) the Welsh rate set by the Assembly for a tax year, or Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Hoban, Mr Mark (b) the fact that the Welsh rate has not been so set for a tax Buckland, Mr Robert Hollingbery, George year, Burns, Conor Hollobone, Mr Philip does not require any change in the amounts repayable or Burns, rh Mr Simon Holloway, Mr Adam deductible under PAYE regulations between the beginning of Burrowes, Mr David Hopkins, Kris that year and such later date as may be specified in the order.’. Burstow, rh Paul Horwood, Martin This amendment, and amendments 24 to 26, clarify and extend the Burt, rh Alistair Howarth, Sir Gerald power of the Treasury, previously in section 116I(4) of GOWA Burt, Lorely Howell, John 2006 (as inserted by clause 8), by order to deal with the Byles, Dan Hughes, rh Simon consequences for PAYE of a Welsh rate having been, or not been, Campbell, Mr Gregory Huppert, Dr Julian set for a tax year. Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hurd, Mr Nick Amendment 24, page 11, line 17, leave out ‘or (2)’ and Carmichael, Neil Jackson, Mr Stewart insert ‘, (2) or (2A)’. Clappison, Mr James Johnson, Gareth Clark, rh Greg Jones, Andrew Amendment 25, page 11, leave out lines 18 to 26. Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Jones, rh Mr David Amendment 26, page 11, line 33, leave out ‘(4)’ and Coffey, Dr Thérèse Jones, Mr Marcus insert ‘(2A)’. Colvile, Oliver Kelly, Chris Amendment 27, page 11, line 40, after ‘tax’, insert Cox, Mr Geoffrey Knight, rh Sir Greg Crabb, Stephen Kwarteng, Kwasi ‘at a rate provided for’. Crouch, Tracey Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Amendment 28, page 11, line 41, leave out ‘charged Davies, David T. C. Latham, Pauline to income tax’ and insert (Monmouth) Laws, rh Mr David Davies, Glyn Leadsom, Andrea ‘income which is charged to income tax at a rate provided for’.—(Mr Gauke.) Davies, Philip Lee, Jessica de Bois, Nick Lee, Dr Phillip Clause 8, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. Dinenage, Caroline Lefroy, Jeremy Clauses 9 and 10 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Leigh, Sir Edward Doyle-Price, Jackie Leslie, Charlotte Drax, Richard Lewis, Brandon Clause 11 Ellis, Michael Lewis, Dr Julian Ellison, Jane Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian REFERENDUM ABOUT COMMENCEMENT OF INCOME TAX Ellwood, Mr Tobias Lidington, rh Mr David PROVISIONS Elphicke, Charlie Lilley, rh Mr Peter Amendment proposed: 1, page 16, line 20, leave out Evans, Graham Lloyd, Stephen from ‘Wales’ to end and add Evans, Jonathan Lopresti, Jack Evans, Mr Nigel Loughton, Tim ‘where a Welsh rate resolution specifies more than one rate of Evennett, Mr David Luff, Sir Peter income tax.’.—(Jonathan Edwards.) Fallon, rh Michael Lumley, Karen Question put, That the amendment be made. Farron, Tim Maude, rh Mr Francis Featherstone, Lynne Maynard, Paul The Committee divided: Ayes 5, Noes 243. Foster, rh Mr Don McCartney, Karl Division No. 260] [8.30 pm Fox,rhDrLiam McIntosh, Miss Anne Francois, rh Mr Mark McPartland, Stephen AYES Freeman, George McVey, rh Esther Freer, Mike Menzies, Mark Edwards, Jonathan Williams, Mr Mark Fullbrook, Lorraine Metcalfe, Stephen Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Tellers for the Ayes: Garnier, Mark Mills, Nigel Lucas, Caroline Dr Eilidh Whiteford and Gauke, Mr David Milton, Anne Williams, Hywel Mr Mike Weir Gibb, Mr Nick Moore, rh Michael Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Morgan, Nicky NOES Glen, John Morris, David Adams, Nigel Bacon, Mr Richard Graham, Richard Morris, James Afriyie, Adam Baker, Norman Gray, Mr James Mosley, Stephen Aldous, Peter Baker, Steve Green, rh Damian Mowat, David Amess, Mr David Baldry, rh Sir Tony Griffiths, Andrew Munt, Tessa Andrew, Stuart Baldwin, Harriett Gummer, Ben Murray, Sheryll Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Barclay, Stephen Gyimah, Mr Sam Murrison, Dr Andrew 961 Wales Bill 30 APRIL 2014 962

Neill, Robert Stewart, Rory LICENCES AND LICENSING Newton, Sarah Streeter, Mr Gary That the draft Licensing Act 2003 (Mandatory Nokes, Caroline Stride, Mel Conditions) Order 2014, which was laid before this Nuttall, Mr David Stuart, Mr Graham House on 9 April, be approved.—(Anne Milton.) O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Ollerenshaw, Eric Sturdy, Julian The Deputy Speaker’s opinion as to the decision of the Ottaway, rh Sir Richard Swales, Ian Question being challenged, the Division was deferred until Paisley, Ian Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Wednesday 7 May (Standing Order No. 41A). Parish, Neil Swire, rh Mr Hugo Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Patel, Priti Syms, Mr Robert Order No. 118(6)), Pawsey, Mark Teather, Sarah Penrose, John Thornton, Mike CONSTITUTIONAL LAW Percy, Andrew Thurso, John That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Modification of Phillips, Stephen Timpson, Mr Edward Schedule 5) Order 2014, which was laid before this Pickles, rh Mr Eric Tomlinson, Justin House on 17 March, be approved.—(Anne Milton.) Pincher, Christopher Turner, Mr Andrew Question agreed to. Poulter, Dr Daniel Tyrie, Mr Andrew Pugh, John Uppal, Paul PETITIONS Randall, rh Sir John Vara, Mr Shailesh Pub rent prices (Derbyshire) Reckless, Mark Vickers, Martin Redwood, rh Mr John Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa 8.43 pm Rees-Mogg, Jacob Walker, Mr Charles Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): The petition, Robertson, Mr Laurence Walker, Mr Robin which has been signed by more than 430 people, relates Rogerson, Dan Walter, Mr Robert Rosindell, Andrew Watkinson, Dame Angela to Claire and Scott Muldoon, who face eviction from Rudd, Amber Webb, Steve the Patternmakers Arms. Ruffley, Mr David Wharton, James The petition states: Rutley, David Wheeler, Heather The Petition of residents of the UK, Sanders, Mr Adrian White, Chris Declares that the Petitioners believe that it is unfair that Claire Sandys, Laura Whittaker, Craig and Scott face eviction from Patternmakers Arms, a well-attended Scott, Mr Lee Whittingdale, Mr John and happy pub, as a result of unreasonable increases in rent prices Selous, Andrew Wiggin, Bill and further that the Government have consulted on establishing a Shannon, Jim Williams, Stephen Statutory Code and an independent Adjudicator for the pub Shapps, rh Grant Williamson, Gavin sector to govern the relationship between large pub companies Sharma, Alok Willott, Jenny and their tenants. Shelbrooke, Alec Wilson, Mr Rob The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons Simpson, David Wollaston, Dr Sarah urges the Government to establish a Code to govern the relationship between large pub companies and their tenants as a matter of Simpson, Mr Keith Wright, Jeremy urgency. Skidmore, Chris Wright, Simon And the Petitioners remain, etc. Smith, Chloe Yeo, Mr Tim Smith, Henry [P001343] Young, rh Sir George Smith, Julian HS2 Proposals for High-Speed Rail Zahawi, Nadhim Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline 8.44 pm Spencer, Mr Mark Tellers for the Noes: Stewart, Bob Claire Perry and Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): I Stewart, Iain Mark Hunter would like to present a very topical petition from the Killamarsh and Renishaw HS2 Action Group, on behalf Question accordingly negatived. of the residents of Killamarsh and Renishaw. It calls on the House of Commons to reject the High Speed Rail Clause 11 ordered to stand part of the Bill. (London - West Midlands) Bill, and I agree. Clauses 12 and 13 ordered to stand part of the Bill. The petition states: Schedule 1 agreed to. The Petition of residents of the UK, The occupant of the Chair left the Chair (Programme Declares that the Petitioners believe that the HS2 rail plan for Order, this day). high speed rail will bring little benefit to the UK and will cost upwards of £33 billion to begin with; further that the Petitioners The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair. believe that the plans are badly thought through and will reap Progress reported; Committee to sit again tomorrow. permanent untold damage, have no environmental benefits, are little use to this country and are an unaffordable luxury at this time; and further that the Petitioners believe that there are many Business without Debate more beneficial, viable, economically and environmentally sound proposals which should be prioritised ahead of HS2. DELEGATED LEGISLATION The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons reject the High Speed Rail (London - West Midlands) Bill. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing And the Petitioners remain, etc. Order No. 118(6)), [P001345] 963 30 APRIL 2014 Free Schools (Chapeltown, Sheffield) 964

Free Schools (Chapeltown, Sheffield) That all calls into question the establishment of the new, post-16 free school—Chapeltown academy—which Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House hopes to open this September. For a start, the academy do now adjourn.—(Anne Milton.) is not locally driven: it was not initiated or suggested by local people, educationists or employers. Moreover, based 8.45 pm on the demographic decline and the fact that our new Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): It sixth forms are not being filled, the demand just is not is a pleasure to have secured this Adjournment debate there, despite the assertions of the academy’s proposers on a topic that is very important to the people of to the contrary. My statistics are based on those provided Chapeltown and the surrounding area. by the local authority of Sheffield city council, which does all the measuring, and there is no evidence whatsoever Chapeltown, and Sheffield generally, is an area that that there is demand for these additional sixth-form enjoys a rich legacy when it comes to providing educational places. The increasing demand that does exist in the opportunities, whether for young or old. I emphasise city, in common with other boroughs in the area, such that that legacy has always been very locally driven by as Barnsley, is for primary school places. pioneers such as Lady Mabel Smith, who was—believe it or not—the sister of the seventh Earl Fitzwilliam but We also need to continue the work of building the was a Labour councillor who worked very hard over a skill set of young people in the region, given that our number of years to provide education for local people city, and the Sheffield city region more generally, is still in the 20th century. She was the driving force behind the broadly an engineering-based economy. On top of that, establishment of Ecclesfield grammar school, which is we need to ensure that we develop more fully the whole now the local comprehensive serving the Chapeltown range of post-16 opportunities, because we want to area. She was the chair of governors for 20 years until develop the talent of all our young people, not just her death in 1951. Even now, Ecclesfield comprehensive, those who want to be professionals or academics. That which is a very successful academy, has its assembly hall is important, but all the evidence shows that, if we need named after her—Lady Mabel hall. We are all very to provide extra post-16 opportunities, the emphasis proud of the legacy that she has left us. The school goes has to be on further investment in vocational training from strength to strength under the inspired leadership and skills. of Joel Wirth, the head teacher. That point is underlined by the fact that 1,200 young That tradition—that legacy—has continued in recent people in Sheffield are not in education, employment or years. We have seen the development of a sixth-form training—the awful acronym NEETs is overused nowadays college in one of the most deprived parts of the city— and I prefer to use the full term. That is clearly where Longley Park. We have seen Hillsborough college go the city needs to place its emphasis. We need more from strength to strength. Only recently, it has enjoyed provision to help meet the needs of those 1,200 young an £8.8 million investment from the Government because people, who have fallen behind and need extra support it is considered successful and has been judged by to get themselves work-ready and skilled for the workplace. Ofsted to be a good college. Very recently, we have had a Clearly, there is no statistical base for opening the new university technical college—a brand-new institution academy. that is already going down very well in the city and There are also problems with the proposed location which was driven absolutely by local employers and of the new academy. I visited the site at the weekend—I local educationists. knew where it was, but I just wanted to have a good We have also seen the recent development of three look at it. It is in the middle of an industrial park. It is a new sixth forms, approved by the Secretary of State. big warehouse, with office space attached to it. It is not They are all in the north of the city, as indeed is possible to enter the area at present, because it is gated Chapeltown. They have already provided 188 additional by an electronic barrier, which has a gatehouse attached places, and that number will grow to 460 by September to it. It is surrounded by other businesses, including a 2014. However, one of those institutions—Parkwood—has repair garage that seems to specialise in repairing heavy had to postpone its recruitment of sixth formers because goods vehicles. When we visited on Sunday, a host of of a lack of demand for places. In addition, Bradfield container-type lorries were parked in the area around school, which is just six miles from Chapeltown in the the garage, which is adjacent to the proposed academy north of the city, has failed in its first year to meet its building. initial allocation of 50 places. The local authority planners, who are professionals, Bradfield is the most popular school in the north of have raised serious concerns about the site’s sustainability. the city. Places in its years 7 to 11 are oversubscribed They are also concerned about the highways implications every single year, and its reputation drives that popularity. of the proposed site and the associated safety of students. I am confident that it will fill its sixth form in the end, One of the problems is that the planning process is but at the moment it is failing to do so. The underlying abandoned—it is not applied—when it comes to new reason is the demographic decline, which is beginning free schools. That does not prevent Sheffield planners to bite in Sheffield and, based on birth rates from years from having a view and their view is absolutely clear. ago, is forecast to continue until 2020. In the seven-year period from last year to 2020, we will suffer a 12% The site is approximately 2 acres. The academy’s decline in the post-16 population, and the cohort will proposers suggest that there will be very minor amendments not be restored to 2012 levels until after 2023. The fact in the office space part of the building for the first that attainment levels are going up all the time should year 12 intake in September. During the first year of the lead to greater demand for sixth-form places, but that new institution, phase 2 site development will take demand will not sufficiently replace the lack of demand place, which be in the huge warehouse—the industrial produced by the demographic decline. unit—attached to the office space. The proposers claim 965 Free Schools (Chapeltown, Sheffield)30 APRIL 2014 Free Schools (Chapeltown, Sheffield) 966

[Angela Smith] “I will carefully consider before entering into a funding agreement with the Chapeltown Academy Trust. Making certain that there is on their website that the building works will not affect sufficient demand from students and that the institution will be or disrupt existing classroom space, which I find very financially viable are two of the factors that I will look at when making my decision.” hard to believe, indeed. I come to the most important point of all. My The industrial park is off the road that takes traffic understanding is that only 12 Sheffield students have from junction 35a of the M1 down into Ecclesfield. It is accepted a place at Chapeltown academy as their first a very busy road. The travel route for many students preference. Given that just 12 young people have taken getting to the academy from Elsecar and the rest of a place at the academy, there is a strong possibility that Barnsley will involve going to Chapeltown railway station. the funding agreement will not go through. It is absolutely The website for Chapeltown academy claims that Barnsley immoral to encourage young people to take up offers of to Chapeltown on the Penistone line takes six minutes, places at an institution that might never open. What which is great, but it does not say that there is a further will happen if it does not open? Those young people 1.7 mile walk to get from Chapeltown railway station to will be left without a sixth-form place and will have the academy. That walk involves going up the busy road limited choices from what is left. They will have the to which I have just referred, which is not safe. Alternatively, crumbs from the table when trying to find another sixth there is a slightly shorter route up Cowley lane in form to attend in September. Is that acceptable? I do Chapeltown, but that is equally busy and will involve not think so. crossing the road twice as the footpath runs out on In summary, Chapeltown academy is not needed, it is either side. I can absolutely understand why the planners not locally driven, it is in an inappropriate location, in Sheffield have serious concerns about the safety of there is very little transparency in the development of students in accessing the site, which is entirely unsuitable. the venture and it is risky. It threatens to let down the My final point about the location is that the site has young people who have put their faith in the institution. no green space around it whatsoever. The website claims Even though there are only 12 of them from the city of that there is recreational space in front of the building Sheffield, that is 12 too many as far as I am concerned. for students and staff alike. At the moment, that recreational Chapeltown Academy Trust has no track record. It has space is a car park. Where recreational space and come from nowhere. It is not a chain or a charity. It has opportunities for sport will come from is absolutely no background whatever. It is untested, untried and unimaginable. I know that Ecclesfield park is down the unknown. I ask the Minister to make a commitment hill in the centre of Ecclesfield village, which is what the tonight seriously to consider backing out of the venture academy claims on its website, but if that is the best it before it is too late and young people are left adrift in can do for green space, I am sorry to say that that is just September, not knowing where to go to further their not sufficient, and many local parents and young people education. will feel the same. We have concerns about the transparency of Chapeltown 9.2 pm Academy Ltd’s development of the proposal. Of course, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education the planning process does not apply in relation to (Mr Edward Timpson): I congratulate the hon. Member getting planning permission for the site, but a consultation for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) on securing has to take place instead. The consultation, which was what is an important debate not just for the students, online, is now closed. There were a few questions asking but for the communities that she represents in Sheffield, for all people’s details and their e-mail address, but the and on ensuring that the proposed free school at consultation consisted of one question: “Do you agree Chapeltown in Sheffield is scrutinised properly. It is with the premises chosen for Chapeltown academy—yes right to acknowledge that she has made a long and or no?”There was also a little box for additional comments. distinguished contribution to education in the House If the local authority tried to undertake a consultation and in her constituency. I believe that she was also a as shabby and inadequate as that, it would rightly be teacher of English at Dearne Valley college until 2003, pilloried by elected representatives, such as me, and by so she speaks with authority on this subject. local media, parents, young people and the local community. I will endeavour to respond to as many of the points It is absolutely astounding that the academy can think she has raised as possible in the short time that we are that that constitutes a proper consultation on a site as allowed for this debate. If I do not manage to do so, I controversial as this one. will ensure that she gets the answers in writing from In addition, at the moment there is a shadow governing either myself or the Minister who is responsible for this body, but the details of the permanent governing body area of policy, my noble Friend Lord Nash. have had to be extracted from the academy bit by bit. In I begin with a statement on which I hope we can all the end, I had to write to the Minister to start to get any agree: every child and young person should have the kind of detail at all. Even now, the detail of how the opportunity and choice to go to an excellent local permanent governing body will look is not complete. school. That is why we are committed to providing all We have the details of only four or five of the individuals parents with a diverse choice of high quality provision, involved, which is just not acceptable. On top of that, including free schools. One hundred and seventy-four we have very few details about the staff. The names of free schools have opened and another 120 are in the just three members of staff and the principal-designate pre-opening phase and are due to open in 2014 and have been announced. beyond. Once they are all approved, open and full, Yet we expect young people and their parents to put those free schools will offer 150,000 pupil places. their faith in this venture. It is untried, untested and Before free schools are allowed to open, the free unknown—and it may never happen. I quote from a school proposers receive a significant period of support letter dated 25 March that I received from Lord Nash: and challenge from the Department for Education. 967 Free Schools (Chapeltown, Sheffield)30 APRIL 2014 Free Schools (Chapeltown, Sheffield) 968

There is a rigorous application process that involves a into any funding agreement with the Chapeltown Academy paper assessment and an interview with the proposer Trust. I will also take this opportunity to address some group. Where required, there are specific conditions of the specific points the hon. Lady has raised. for the approval. There is then the pre-opening period On evidence of demand, in its original proposal the when groups such as Chapeltown are supported by Chapeltown academy had— as with all free school officials as they develop their proposal further, consult projects—to produce robust evidence of demand for its with the local community and work towards signing a proposed provision from parents and prospective students, funding agreement with the Department. and make a strong case for its proposal, citing contextual Quite rightly, as they are brand new schools, there is factors including the breadth and quality of the local greater oversight of open free schools than other academies, post-16 offer. The Chapeltown academy received more at least until their first successful Ofsted inspection. It is than 300 expressions of interest in spring last year from worth noting that most free schools are performing students who stated that they would choose to attend well. For example, recently in Yorkshire and the Humber, the academy were it to open in 2014. As I have said, the Dixons Trinity academy was rated outstanding by Ofsted, academy will have 150 places available in the first year, despite opening only 20 months ago. and even with the delays to the announcement of the There are already six free schools open in England site for the academy—I will come to that in due course—the that cater for 16 to 19-year-olds. The first of those to trust has already made more than 130 offers, 81 of open was the London Academy of Excellence, which which have been accepted to date. That figure will has been rated as good by Ofsted. The others, including obviously change in due course. Chapeltown academy, are looking to open in September We are aware that some students may potentially 2014 and beyond. Chapeltown academy will be the first hold a place at another post-16 establishment—a point purely academic 16-to-19 free school—should it be raised by the hon. Lady—so it is difficult to predict accepted—for 300 students in the north of the city. precisely at this stage the number of students who will The trust’s vision as it is laid out is to provide young arrive should the Chapeltown academy open in September. people in the area with the dedicated A-level provision However, the academy has a robust student retention and support that it believes is currently lacking in the plan in place that has been shared with the Department north of Sheffield. That type of provision is needed by for Education, and it will continue to recruit students to students who have aspirations to attend some of the top ensure that sufficient numbers are achieved. universities in the country. The academy aims to open The hon. Lady also mentioned the decreasing in September this year with 150 students, and it will demographic of the 16-to-19 cohort in Sheffield and cater for a total of 300 students when running at full the impact on existing providers. I understand that the capacity. 16-to-19 cohort in Sheffield overall may decrease in the coming years, and that all post-16 providers in the Angela Smith: The Minister has just claimed that north of Sheffield will therefore be looking to attract there is demand for high-quality sixth-form places in potential students. Chapeltown academy will have a the north of the city, yet Bradfield school—one of the dedicated academic provision focus and will attract highest performing and most popular schools in the students who aspire to go on to attend some of the top city—cannot fill its sixth form. universities in the country. Currently, if students in the local area wish to attend a purely academic education Mr Timpson: That is not my claim; that is the trust’s option they must either attend provision that provides own vision that it has set out. I will come on to explain both academic and vocational courses, or travel substantial how we must take into consideration—along with a distances across the city to seek it elsewhere. number of other factors—the demand in the city for Unfortunately, time does not allow me to elaborate this provision before deciding whether to go ahead with on the various institutions available to students in the the project. city, although the hon. Lady referred to some of them. As the hon. Lady knows, the Department assesses the Part of the whole ethos of the free schools programme proposal for the Chapeltown academy, and it must is to provide competition for existing providers with the approve it to proceed into the pre-opening phase, which aim of driving education standards across the whole it did in June last year. There has been significant sector. That is something that the Chapeltown academy progress throughout that phase, and we envisage that will want to be able to offer to the academic students in the Department will soon consider whether the Secretary the area. of State for Education should enter into a funding The hon. Lady also raised concerns about the capacity agreement with Chapeltown Academy Trust. I emphasise and experience of the proposer group for the Chapeltown that the Department places great importance on that academy. We are fully aware that the skills and attributes decision, and it is also aware of the need to do it as soon that are valuable in writing a proposal or successfully as reasonably practicable if it does go forward, so as to delivering a project are very different from the skill set provide increased certainty of a sixth-form place for required to govern an academy effectively. I totally potential students in the local area. agree that a strong and effective governing body is a The hon. Lady alluded to the fact that she has crucial element in the success of any educational institution. already written to my colleagues, the Secretary of State As is the case with all free schools, we expect to see a for Education and the Schools Minister, on a number of strong governing body in which any conflicts of interest occasions, to express her concerns about this academy, are identified and addressed. That is why we have asked which she has also articulated extremely forcefully this the trust to consider its governance arrangements to evening. She has helpfully laid out some valid points ensure that its membership has both the skills and the before the House, and the Minister responsible for the experience to drive through any necessary improvements. decision will carefully consider such issues before entering That was reiterated to the hon. Lady in a letter from the 969 Free Schools (Chapeltown, Sheffield)30 APRIL 2014 Free Schools (Chapeltown, Sheffield) 970

[Mr Timpson] proposal. The trust has worked to ensure that it consults as many stakeholders as possible, and I understand it Minister for Schools. To that end, the revised governing wrote to the hon. Lady, inviting her to attend a consultation body now consists of two former head teachers—one event, along with giving her a hard copy of the consultation being the chair of governors, who has post-16 leadership document. experience—a chief executive of a local charity, a senior At the time of planning and launching the public human resources consultant, a former director of education consultation, the negotiations for the Chapeltown academy’s and skills, and a chartered accountant. We are now premises were commercially sensitive, so the trust was satisfied that the governance structure has the capability unable therefore to release the details of the proposed to deliver an outstanding education to its students. I premises at that stage. Respondents to the consultation understand that full details of the governing body are were informed that the trust would consult the public available on the Chapeltown academy website. again regarding premises in due course. It has now run a separate public consultation regarding the premises, Angela Smith: Will the Minister acknowledge that which opened on 12 March and closed on 2 April. The that is only five members of the permanent governing trustees are considering the responses received and will body? The rest of the governing body will not be publish a supplementary report. I know that the hon. announced until towards the end of the year. Lady will be interested in its contents. Officials from the Department also sought the views Mr Timpson: I cannot contradict the hon. Lady’s of local authorities in Sheffield, Rotherham and Barnsley. comment, but I will look carefully at the point she has As with all free school proposals, the responses from made. It will need to be considered as part of the this consultation, along with the consultation undertaken process as it continues. by the trust, will be duly considered before we decide The Department is aware that some of the local whether to enter into a funding agreement with the post-16 providers in the north of Sheffield and across trust. The next steps are for officials to collate all the the city are not in favour of the proposed Chapeltown evidence in relation to the Chapeltown academy proposal, academy. Clearly, we would not necessarily expect that and for Ministers to consider whether to enter into a to be the case, for obvious reasons. We are also aware funding agreement with the academy trust. that some of those providers have liaised directly with I know that the Chapeltown academy has taken the the Chapeltown academy to request further information approach of sharing as much information as it can about its proposal. It is for the academy trust to determine publicly regarding the new academy. As the hon. Lady what information or financial data it is appropriate to said, it is proposed that the free school will be located in release at any given time. I understand that the Chapeltown an industrial unit on the Hydra business park. It is academy has discussed its proposal with some existing intended that temporary permitted development rights colleges and has provided as much information as it feels will shortly be applied for to enable the school to use is possible without releasing confidential information. part of the existing office space for one academic year. As for the financial viability of the Chapeltown academy, A full planning application for change of use and it has supplied financial plans as required at each stage external alterations will also be submitted for the permanent of the project, along with a business model that further building, so there will be some planning oversight of the demonstrates the viability of the free school. The trust facility. will produce revised financial plans again before we As with all free schools, a wide range of factors is consider entering into a funding agreement. Rightly, considered before entering into a funding agreement. those financial plans are rigorously assessed by the We remain confident that the Chapeltown Academy Department to ensure that they are viable both from a Trust has produced the material necessary, but it remains financial and educational perspective. for it to make its case. The hon. Lady raised concerns about the consultation Question put and agreed to. carried out by the free school trust. That is something it has to do to establish whether it should enter into a funding agreement with the Department. The Department 9.15 pm also consults local authorities in considering a free school House adjourned. 247WH 30 APRIL 2014 Type 1 Diabetes (Young People) 248WH

fatigue, and continued high levels can lead to diabetic Westminster Hall ketoacidosis—known as DKA—which is a potentially fatal condition. Longer-term consequences include heart Wednesday 30 April 2014 disease, kidney failure, neuropathy, blindness and amputations. Low blood glucose levels, known as hypoglycaemia, cause dizziness, incoherence and potential [MR DAI HAVARD in the Chair] loss of consciousness and are often followed by severe headaches. Type 1 Diabetes (Young People) Blood glucose levels can alter dramatically, and Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting apparently inexplicably, at any time of the day or night be now adjourned.—(Claire Perry.) and require immediate attention. According to research undertaken by the National Paediatric Diabetes Audit, 85% of children and young people aged over 12 with 9.30 am diabetes have blood glucose levels higher than the Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): May I take recommended targets. That is perhaps unsurprising, the usual step of thanking you for chairing this sitting, because only 6% of those in that sample received the Mr Havard? I know that that is something of a ritual, recommended care, services and support to which they but on this occasion I am sincere. You may be aware were entitled. that I was originally on the list to chair this sitting, so Some children are diagnosed with diabetes in infancy, you have saved me the embarrassment of having to or when they are too young to take responsibility for congratulate myself. managing their condition. Inevitably, the responsibility I begin with some acknowledgements. I am particularly must be taken by family members, most commonly grateful to the staff and patients at the diabetes centre parents. For many families, having a child with type 1 at Aintree university hospital and the specialist diabetes diabetes affects them all and many adjustments have to services team at St Helens and Knowsley. I also thank be made to support that young person. As one young the young people with diabetes who took the time to type 1 diabetes sufferer told me recently, until she was speak to me; the Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation; 18, she was almost entirely dependent on her mother Diabetes UK; Diabetics with Eating Disorders, known monitoring her blood glucose and ensuring that she as DWED; Circle D; and Dr Mike Merriman in my injected the right amount of insulin at the right time. constituency. In advance of this debate, people contacted me about I sought this debate on behalf of children with type 1 difficulties they have experienced with the Department diabetes in the UK, but I should point out that the for Work and Pensions and the disability living allowance condition does not affect children only. There are system. Some of the problems raised arise from the fact 400,000 people of all ages with type 1 diabetes in the that the DWP does not fully understand the complex UK and, currently, 35,000 children and young people needs of young people with type 1 diabetes. I would be have diabetes, 93% of whom have type 1 diabetes. It is grateful if the Minister raised that with the relevant important that we understand the difference between Minister at the DWP to see whether that could be type 1 and type 2 diabetes, because, all too often, the satisfactorily resolved. two conditions are dealt with in the media as though Two young type 1 diabetics, Lauren and Nicole, both they were one and the same thing. For example, a told me that they had experienced bullying at school as prominent businessman, Jim Ratcliffe, was recently quoted a result of their condition. Nicole, who is 16, states that in The Sunday Times as saying: she “Childhood diabetes didn’t exist when I was growing up. It was an old man’s disease. But now lots of kids have diabetes. They are “frequently experienced bullying because of my diabetes and eating so much sugar that by the time they are 16, the pancreas is because everyone thought it was because I was fat”. giving up the ghost”. Several young people have commented on the That is quite simply a misunderstanding of type 1 or embarrassment that they feel at having to inject insulin childhood diabetes. Type 1 diabetes has absolutely no in public. In some cases, they have been referred to as connection to dietary habits or a lack of exercise; it is drug addicts, or been asked not to inject or test their an auto-immune condition and, as such, cannot be blood, as others find it offensive. prevented. All people who suffer from type 1 diabetes I made two visits recently to the diabetes centre at have to deal with the consequences, which, for the most Aintree university hospital and the specialist diabetes part, are inescapable and unremitting. A daily battle services team at St Helens and Knowsley Teaching must be conducted to maintain blood glucose level Hospitals NHS Trust, both of which provide outstanding within the medically safe range, balancing food and services for type 1 diabetics. They have a different range insulin intake, while taking into account physical activity, of specialisms to call on beyond the use of nurse stress levels and temperature. specialists and diabetologists. For example, they can Young diabetics can take up to eight daily insulin refer to psychological or, where appropriate, psychiatric injections and often have to perform invasive blood services. testing even more frequently. Yet according to research by JDRF, even those who stick rigidly to the prescribed Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): I pay tribute regime will fall outside the medically safe range on to the work that my right hon. Friend has done in this more than three occasions in any 24-hour period. area. Before he moves off the stigma issue, does he agree Not staying within safe blood glucose levels has that we need to think about how we can raise awareness consequences. In the short term, high levels, which among young people? Does he also agree that social are known as hyperglycaemia, at the very least cause media organisations need to be responsible but not 249WH Type 1 Diabetes (Young People)30 APRIL 2014 Type 1 Diabetes (Young People) 250WH

[Alison McGovern] were ignored, despite her saying that she was terrified that she would find her son “dead in bed”, and her son afraid about stigma arising from the use of needles and lost his battle with diabulimia on 25 July 2009. The so on? We need to talk frankly and honestly about ombudsman concluded that type 1 diabetes and its consequences for young people, “had a more coordinated and holistic care plan been put place it so that those with the condition do not feel in any sense might have resulted in a different outcome.” as though they must hide away. Jane has been fighting for recognition since 2009, and says that there was never an investigation into why her Mr Howarth: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that son died, which she attributed to his mental health intervention. She is quite right to say that social media problems. That was another complaint upheld by the has an important role to play. I will say more about that ombudsman. shortly, but one example was drawn to my attention There is a serious need for a much more integrated where Facebook removed an image of someone injecting service, so that all aspects of the treatment of type 1 on the grounds that that was offensive. That is offensive, diabetes can be dealt with together. There must be but not in the way that it thought. I will say something greater investment to ensure that emotional and more positive about how social media can be used in a psychological support becomes an accepted and routine few moments, but it is important that more people part of management for all children with diabetes and understand exactly what we are saying. that appropriate services are in place. Incorporating I was talking about psychiatric services. On a national psychological services with routine clinic visits would scale, psychological support is not necessarily integrated avoid much of the stigma associated with treatment for into the diabetic service, and the practitioners are therefore mental health problems. In addition to regular clinic unlikely to have sufficient understanding of diabetes. attendances, young diabetics require separate appointments Psychiatric services are even more difficult to access, for special eye checks and chiropody. Those should be and I am told that patients can wait up to two years for available under one roof in an effort to improve the care an appointment. In some cases, that is a matter of life achieved. and death. The diabetes attitudes, wishes and needs I am grateful that the urgent need to improve access survey, known as DAWN, published in Diabetic Medicine, to and integration of services is now being recognised interviewed 15,000 people in 17 countries and found with the introduction of the best practice tariff for that people with diabetes are more likely to suffer from paediatric diabetes. From April this year, the standards depression. Those services are therefore very important. included in the best practice tariff are mandatory for all I want to say a little about young people with type 1 paediatric diabetes units, and the tariff has been extended diabetes who also have an eating disorder. According to to cover in-patient care, which will hopefully incentivise the charity Diabetics with Eating Disorders, as many as lower admission rates. However, I would argue that the 40% of young women between the ages of 15 and 30 best practice tariff should be extended to include all admit taking insulin as a means of achieving weight young patients up to the age of 25. Each young person reduction. The phenomenon sometimes referred is different, and transition from child to adult services to—although it is not a medical term—as diabulimia is must happen at a stage and time appropriate to them. increasing. Rapid weight loss is achieved when diabetes The current cut-off for the tariff is 19, but the available is left untreated, but the consequences can be catastrophic. data suggest that that is too soon, because 25% of all DKA, a potentially fatal condition where the body hospital admissions for diabetic ketoacidosis involve turns on itself for energy, rapidly develops. Even if it young people aged 16 to 25; the annual cost is £5.3 million. does not prove fatal, it can result in serious health Extending the best practice tariff to 25 would provide complications. an opportunity for better alignment of the service with Diabulimia is difficult to diagnose and there are no the needs of young people. current NHS guidelines on how to deal with the issue. Young people can be treated for their diabetes and for Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): My right an eating disorder, but there is no integrated thinking to hon. Friend is making a powerful speech on an issue cover the two elements of care. Yet the treatment for a close to his heart. I hope that hon. Members will know diabetic with an eating disorder is quite different from his family circumstances. He is raising an important that for a person without diabetes. DWED has provided matter; there is a need to inform a much wider audience, an example of a young woman who was admitted to a not only so that everyone will be more aware of problems unit dealing with eating disorders, where no insulin and issues to do with type 1 diabetes, but to inform needles were available and where the patient was fed via people with the condition who believe they can manipulate a tube without any insulin being administered. That their insulin intake for one reason or another. Does he exacerbated the problem that the unit was supposed to believe that more should be done to highlight the problems be treating. that can arise when people do not stick rigidly to their insulin intake regime? There is a clear need for a more integrated service, with mental health professionals who have a knowledge of diabetes. A further and tragic example from DWED Mr Howarth: My hon. Friend makes his point well, in illustrates the point well. Jane, the mother of Rhys, a support of my argument, and I am grateful. young man who was suffering from diabulimia, repeatedly One in four children are diagnosed with type 1 diabetes requested that he be assessed psychiatrically. She did so when they are already in DKA, and the rate is even every time her son was admitted to A and E suffering higher for children under the age of five. A number of acute DKA, which happened on several occasions. She clinicians I have met recently have advocated the removal repeatedly raised it with the diabetes clinic and with the of barriers between primary care and specialist teams, community mental health team. Unfortunately, her pleas arguing that primary and secondary care teams should 251WH Type 1 Diabetes (Young People)30 APRIL 2014 Type 1 Diabetes (Young People) 252WH be sharing their expertise with one another in an attempt A more positive story can also be told, however. to close the skills and knowledge gap. In Merseyside, for Many young people now use insulin pumps. Last week, example, specialist nurses have been working as mentors I met 23-year-old Alex, who told me how her pump had in practices to support primary care development and changed her life: “It’s a little like you don’t have to think tackle deficits of knowledge, skills and confidence. about it anymore. I don’t have to get my needles out; I Education is a major component of the improvement of don’t have to offend anyone. I can have a biscuit, go to care and outcomes. In many European countries, diabetes- the gym. I can change it to temporary settings and go specific training is mandatory for health care professionals out with friends. I can do things now. Before I used to who provide paediatric diabetes care. That is not the say, ‘I can’t be bothered having to plan around it.’ It case in the UK. Although there has been a huge amount only takes two seconds; it’s hidden.” of work in the past five years to improve education for One of the research projects that holds the most hope health care professionals, investment is needed to ensure for people with type 1 diabetes is the work to develop an that all paediatric units can access nationally standardised artificial pancreas, which is known as an AP. The AP is and accredited training. in essence a combination of an insulin pump and a continuous glucose monitor. The clever part is that the David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I congratulate two devices talk to each other via a complex algorithm. the right hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. There The monitor automatically checks blood glucose levels are young teachers in schools in my constituency who and then, in effect, tells the pump exactly the right are reluctant to inject children who are insulin-dependent. amount of insulin needed by the body. Such technology Surely, something more in the way of education and holds great promise to help people to safely achieve the awareness needs to be done about that. Parents cannot recommended blood glucose control, as well as alleviating come in to do that, so it needs to be done by someone an enormous amount of the burden associated with such as a teacher or a nurse in school. self-management. Recent trials of the device have been encouraging. Mr Howarth: There are a number of problems to do with primary care. Sometimes, the lack of knowledge is A consortium led by the type 1 diabetes charity appalling. The fact that on many occasions young people JDRF is leading the development of the AP. JDRF’s can go to a GP with what turn out to be classic diabetes artificial pancreas consortium encompasses 22 institutions symptoms without being diagnosed is a serious problem worldwide participating in the study. It is a great credit and needs to be addressed. The hon. Gentleman is right to the UK’s life sciences sector that we can count that education programmes for health professionals are Cambridge, Leeds and University college London among important. It is equally important for people working in the contributors, alongside Harvard, Yale and Stanford. GP practices or other primary health care settings to be Another artificial pancreas, developed by Professor Joan aware of the phenomenon that they are dealing with; Taylor of De Montfort university, could have its first otherwise they will make wrong decisions and give human trials by 2016. It has a reservoir of insulin kept wrong advice, which in some cases can make things in place by a special gel barrier, which liquefies when even worse. glucose levels rise, releasing insulin to the liver, thus mimicking a normal pancreas. As the insulin lowers the We must prioritise access to education for self- glucose levels, the gel reacts by hardening again and management for children and young people. I am optimistic preserving the reservoir. Such research is an important about the introduction under the best practice tariff of step towards developing a portable, usable and safe AP the requirement that children and young people will system. have access to education. There is, however, huge concern about the variety and standard of education. Considerable To return to the point made by my hon. Friend the work is needed to ensure that what is offered is nationally Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern), social standardised and tailored to meet the needs of children media are increasingly used to help and support young and young people, as well as their families. Unfortunately, diabetics. Many young people with diabetes experience there is no single best practice model throughout the a sense of isolation and have no contact with others NHS, although I am aware that the Government’s national who share their condition. A good example of young clinical director for obesity and diabetes, Dr Jonathan diabetics helping themselves is the 18-to-30 support Valabhji, understands that and is working with diabetes group Circle-D, which was founded by the inspirational groups to find the best way forward. Today, I simply ask Shelley Bennett and is celebrating its sixth birthday the Minister to take an active interest in Dr Valabhji’s today—congratulations to Circle D. They have regular work and to provide the support necessary to make social activities and a rant room where people can have progress. a rant and share experiences before going to the pub. I am told by those involved in diabetes that much Their motto is “you are not alone” and they now have a research is focused on type 2 diabetes and that the massive network of diabetics of all ages offering support principal source of funding is often pharmaceutical online, via Facebook and in person. Another group, companies. That is of course welcome, but whereas with targeted at teenagers and young adults, is Hedgie Pricks. type 2 diabetes pharmaceutical companies can see long-term Information about both organisations can be found benefit in new and existing products, such a link is less online, and I would certainly encourage young diabetics clear with research into type 1 diabetes. There are some to get involved and to share their experiences with counter-examples, but it is an issue that needs addressing, others in a similar position. so it is crucial for central Government to invest in type 1 The debate today is an opportunity to praise the steps diabetes research. Despite the UK having the fifth highest that are being taken to improve paediatric diabetes care incidence of type 1 in the world, our contribution to and to pinpoint where we need to do more. With that in type 1 research per capita is currently less than half that mind, I reiterate my support and optimism for the best spent in the United States or Australia. practice tariff. Given that the tariff was only introduced 253WH Type 1 Diabetes (Young People)30 APRIL 2014 Type 1 Diabetes (Young People) 254WH

[Mr George Howarth] cure. My old friend and colleague on Kensington and Chelsea council, Rupert Cecil, has a delightful 10-year-old recently, I hope that the Minister agrees that it would be daughter, whom I have got to know throughout her life; sensible to return to the subject of type 1 diabetes in she has similarly suffered from type 1 since infancy and young people once we have had a chance to see how well requires constant monitoring. Rupert and his wife, Juliet, that is working. have tirelessly raised funds for and awareness of the In the immediate future, however, the Government condition since Polly was diagnosed with this life-threatening can and must do more. I would welcome the Minister and incurable illness at the age of two and a half. commenting on extending the best practice tariff to 25, From the outside, Polly is just like any other 10-year-old, ensuring that children and young people with type 1 but a close look may reveal a wire poking out from diabetes get the psychological support that they need under her school uniform and attached to something and ensuring that educational standards for health care resembling a money belt. This is the insulin pump that professionals and for children and young people with Polly relies on from day to day. It is the artificial diabetes and their families are nationally standardised pancreas to which the right hon. Gentleman referred. and accredited. I will be grateful to learn of any steps She is attached to it each and every day and will be for that the Minister can take to increase our contribution the rest of her life. Without it, she could not survive to type 1 research. longer than 24 hours. In addition to her insulin pump, I have one final point to make. I feel strongly that the her parents must test her blood by pricking her finger at issue of type 1 diabetes needs a champion within the least five times a day. They often have to wake her in the Government. I hope that the Minister will rise to the middle of the night to give her glucose if her sugar challenge and provide the political leadership that is so levels have dropped dangerously, or some insulin if they needed if we are to tackle this important matter. are running high. That is the daily tightrope that is walked by each and every parent of a young child with Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair): Six people wish to type 1 diabetes. speak. I am looking at the time for planning purposes. We have just over an hour left, with 10 minutes each for Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): I understand what the the Front Benchers. I am trying to gauge the time, but hon. Gentleman is saying about his friend’s young you can do the mathematics for yourself. To be fair to child, but many young people, particularly in areas of one another, if you could plan for about seven minutes social deprivation, cannot access insulin pumps unless or something of that nature, that would be helpful. they buy them, and I believe that they cost around £1,500 or £2,000. If people do not have the money, many of them suffer greatly. 9.57 am Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con): Mark Field: That is a fair comment and I hope the From our joint experience on the Intelligence and Security Minister will comment on it. Committee, I am well aware that the right hon. Member I want to touch on an imaginative and innovative for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) has a robustness at times, scheme in my constituency at St Mary’s hospital, and perhaps he would have liked to be judge and jury in Paddington, which is part of the Imperial College today’s debate. I congratulate him, above all, on bringing Healthcare NHS Trust and which I visited recently. I the subject to the House. I am well aware that, as hope that it will not only raise awareness, but reduce the alluded to earlier, these are issues that are very close to cost to which the hon. Gentleman referred. During my his heart, and he speaks with immense knowledge and recent visit, I discussed the everyday realities for diabetes passion about this particular affliction. sufferers. I wish to contribute a few words to the debate, The International Centre for Circulatory Health is because the subject has been raised a number of times based on the St Mary’s hospital campus of the Imperial with me at constituency level in recent months. As we College Healthcare NHS Trust, just behind Paddington have heard, type 1 diabetes is a chronic and life-threatening station. Imperial college has published some of the auto-immune condition, which is caused when the body lowest amputation rates in the world from its diabetic mistakenly attacks the insulin-producing beta cells in foot service, led by Dr Jonathan Valabhji. It has a large the pancreas. It is a separate and distinct condition diabetes technology centre that is closely linked with a from the more common and perhaps more widely known research programme developing closed-loop insulin delivery type 2 diabetes. for type 1 diabetics and novel continuous glucose sensor Estimates put the number of people in the UK with devices. Its clinical technology research is led by Dr Nick type 1 diabetes at as high as 400,000, which means that Oliver, who talked me through the pioneering work he is each and every MP in the UK has, on average, some doing to develop the artificial pancreas system for everyone 500 constituents suffering with type 1. As recently as with type 1 diabetes. I hope that that will also reduce the 2010-11, it was thought that the direct and indirect cost costs to which reference was made earlier. of type 1 diabetes alone to the UK was around £1.9 billion; That ground-breaking research aims to offer the next judging by the growing rate of increase, it is feared that best thing to a cure for type 1 diabetes patients in the by 2036 that figure could rise to some £4.2 billion each future. I saw for myself how a small, discreet device, and every year. connected to the blood stream via micro-needles, can A few months ago, a mother in my constituency monitor glucose levels. When paired with insulin and wrote to me explaining exactly what life was like, day by glucagon pumps, the artificial pancreas should be able day, hour by hour, caring for her young child with to give diabetics an approximate response to blood type 1 diabetes. She described how her experience reminds sugar levels close to what a body would normally produce. her daily of the urgency and importance of finding a With consistent levels of insulin delivered, sufferers are 255WH Type 1 Diabetes (Young People)30 APRIL 2014 Type 1 Diabetes (Young People) 256WH liberated from the constant monitoring and worrying I welcome the Prime Minister’s interest in promoting that comes with the daily management of the disease. the work of the UK-Israeli partnership. It is important The St Mary’s site is just one research centre forming when Prime Ministers take an interest in a particular part of a global effort that could help to change the lives issue, but I echo the points made by my right hon. of many of the 400,000 people who are living with Friend that we must look at where the funding is type 1 diabetes, and save the NHS a significant proportion coming from, where it is being directed, and the overall of the money that is currently spent on treatment. amount. The artificial pancreas system has three components. My first brief point is about timing. Type 1 diabetes Two, the insulin pump and continuous glucose monitor, in young people often occurs at a difficult time in young are available. However people with type 1 diabetes face people’s lives when they are struggling to cope with the difficulties trying to access insulin pumps despite a physical changes that come with being a teenager. After supportive technology appraisal from the National Institute an acute episode they often find themselves managing a for Health and Care Excellence. Indeed the national chronic condition. They may be struggling to come to uptake of insulin pump therapy stands at just under terms with a new health regime and may suddenly find half the NIHCE benchmark, set as long ago as 2008, themselves being treated in the NHS as an adult. That which is extremely low and means the UK is lagging difficult transition may lead to a break in service, and behind many western countries. There seems to be add to complications further down the line with damaging consensus among those working in diabetes research consequences. that greater investment from the Government is vital to drive developments in this area. At present, our Government The statistics for young women with type 1 diabetes invest less per capita than the US, Australia and Canada are startling. Young women between the ages of 15 and in type 1 diabetes research. 34 have a mortality rate seven times higher than the general population. I welcome the introduction of the best- I am aware that there is some joined-up thinking, not practice tariff up to the age of 19, but ask the Government least by my right hon. Friend the Minister for Universities to consider extending it to 25. That would allow greater and Science, but I would be grateful if the Minister here continuity of care and a more flexible transition, which told us how the Government will work to ensure that should be based on clinical need and not age. the sort of treatment for type 1 diabetes sufferers will be matched up to the level of other western nations, what Type 1 diabetes is more than simply a physical condition, more can be done to fund pioneering research, and how although it is that, and health care has improved in we can roll out the level of service received by patients many ways with advice on diet, the massive impact of at Imperial college to patients throughout the country. accessing eye tests and checking feet regularly, but there I am pleased that so many hon. Members are here is a psychological impact. Anyone with a serious chronic today. We all have our contribution to make and I look condition that will last the whole of their lifetime will forward to hearing what they have to say. The 400,000 think about that and may become depressed at some sufferers and their many millions of relatives and carers point. I do not know enough about anorexia or bulimia will be cheered that we are treating the issue seriously. to comment, but I do know that type 1 diabetics must at some point in their lives not only think about it but Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair): Thank you, Mr Field, become depressed as a result. Therefore, access to for managing your time well with an intervention. psychological services should be part of the offer that is made. That should, when necessary, involve family members 10.5 am as well, because it is not just about the individual, but about their family. Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab): As ever, Mr Havard, it is a pleasure to serve under your I very much welcome the professional pathway that chairmanship. I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the has been created for paediatric diabetes as a specialism, Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) for securing this but, as my right hon. Friend and the hon. Member for important debate and for the way in which he opened it. Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field) mentioned, He knows better than almost anyone else the terrible we need to ensure that health care professionals are also price that this condition sometimes forces sufferers to aware of the condition and are supported by clear pay and its impact not only on individuals, but on their national standards. I would like that to be extended to families. If the Government need a champion for the teachers and other staff in schools as well. It is as matter, they could not find a better one than my right important that the person looking after the dinner hon. Friend. queue knows about diabetes in young people as it is that the person at the front of the class teaching them My short contribution will support many of my right knows. That is why I support very much Diabetes UK’s hon. Friend’s points, but first I want to thank the health “Make the Grade” campaign. I want every young person care professionals involved in the management and with type 1 diabetes to get the health care that they treatment of this condition, particularly those at my need, but I want them to get the educational opportunities North Tyneside General hospital. As we have heard, as well. I want them to do well and go on to further and diabetes affects around 35,000 people aged under 19, higher education. I want them to be able to take part in 90% having type 1 with a peak age of diagnosis between school sport and school visits without being worried 10 and 14. We are making good progress in the treatment and without the member of staff with them being and management of type 1 diabetes, including among worried. young people, but we have a long way to go. I am no scientist, but my fervent wish is that we find a cure not The Government have produced figures—we have just in my lifetime but much sooner. Important work is heard them today—about the cost to the NHS of diabetes. being done in this country and elsewhere on stem cell We have heard that the figure is £1.9 billion and rising, research, which is a possible route to finding that cure. but, as ever, behind those statistics are thousands of 257WH Type 1 Diabetes (Young People)30 APRIL 2014 Type 1 Diabetes (Young People) 258WH

[Mr Alan Campbell] Most children diagnosed with diabetes receive their diagnosis between the ages of 10 and 14, which as we all young people with type 1 diabetes. Frankly, we could do know is a hard time, as it is for any teenager. They are more, and Government could do more, to make their going through puberty, experiencing physical and emotional lives not only better, but longer. changes and, crucially, trying to fit in with their peers. Let us now take ourselves back to those years—that 10.11 am may be hard for some of us—and imagine reeling from a lifelong diagnosis, a diabetes diagnosis, and having to Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) deal with the other pressures on us at that stage in life. (Con): It is always a pleasure to serve under your Suddenly, the weight-loss benefits that can be had from chairmanship, Mr Havard. I add my congratulations to diabulimia might seem highly attractive. the right hon. Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) on securing an important debate. He will recall that We have heard about social media and how that can previously—I think that it is now nearly two years be a force for good. Sadly, it can also be a very detrimental ago—I led a debate in this place on eating disorders. He force. A quick scan of Google will show that there are came along and enlightened everyone present about the many forums and chatrooms where advice is given on problems with diabulimia—a condition that until that how to control diabulimia and how to use it to drop point I had never heard of—and he has done the same weight dramatically. today. As the chairman of the all-party group on body The prevalence of depression is twice as high among image, I am very conscious of the way in which young people with diabetes as it is among the general population. diabetics—I have said “young” and I shall probably Particularly when people are at this vulnerable age, a focus on women; I appreciate that people of all ages diabetes diagnosis can cause dangerous levels of depression. have type 1 diabetes and that eating disorders affect Other hon. Members have mentioned the stigma. I was men as well as women—and, in particular, young women very upset to hear of a primary school in my constituency are manipulating their use of insulin to achieve very that did not want to manage a young lad’s diabetes rapid weight loss, which poses a very significant risk to through his being allowed to have tests and insulin their health. injections in the classroom. It felt that that would upset Diabetes is an entirely manageable disorder. It takes other pupils. My ex-husband is a diabetic and routinely some time, experience and a lot of work for the sufferers injected in front of our at that point very young daughter to come to terms with it, but they can manage it. and, indeed, her friends. They were never upset by that; However, when it is combined with body-image issues, in fact, they had a morbid fascination with it and were it can have terrible and long-lasting effects and, in some all gripped to watch it go on. I think that it is a positive tragic cases, it can be fatal. Today, therefore, I want to thing for children to learn from a very young age that focus on the issue of eating disorders among those with other children have conditions that they can manage type 1 diabetes. perfectly safely, that involve injections and that are not Of course, I appreciate that young people with diabetes a reason for fear or stigma. face many issues and problems. I had a great Easter Obviously, diabulimia—the practice of reducing insulin card from a six-year-old constituent of mine, Isabelle. injections to reduce calorie absorption and therefore She uses an insulin pump, as many people do, but she cause rapid weight loss—is hugely unhealthy. It is one still has to test her blood sugar levels six times a day. I reason why the mortality rate for women with diabetes know from her letter that she is a fantastically brave who are aged 15 to 34 is seven times higher than that for young lady. She has specifically asked me to raise with their non-diabetic counterparts. Of course, death is the my hon. Friend the Minister the issue of research most extreme consequence of diabulimia, but it is not funding and has highlighted the work of JDRF, which the only one. One hundred amputations are carried out we all agree does amazing work in this area. every week as a result of diabetes, and diabetics are The all-party group on body image does a great deal 20 times more likely to go blind than non-diabetics. of work to emphasise the pressures that young people With poor management, those disabilities become far in particular are under to conform to our so-called more likely. After those effects are seen, it is often a beauty norms, and part of that of course is about steeply downhill slope: 70% of amputees die within five weight. It is shocking but true that too many people are years of the operation. prepared to sacrifice their health and well-being just to The combination of eating disorders and diabetes is be thin. I have a view on the role that the media play in so deadly that groups such as Diabetics with Eating that. I am talking about the manipulated images—the Disorders have been formed to deal directly with the use of Photoshop and airbrushing to create digitally an issues. They have found that far from a tiny minority, image of so-called perfection that of course in the real about 40% of 15 to 35-year-olds regularly omit the use world is impossible to achieve. of insulin in order to lose weight. Some people might Many young people fall victim to eating disorders, try to pass that off as young people simply forgetting, which can wreck lives. Nearly 4,000 people under 18 but when we factor in that 25% of all hospital admissions have been admitted to hospital with eating disorders in for diabetic ketoacidosis are in the 16-to-25 age group, the past four years. That includes 270 boys and 163 girls it becomes hard to believe that such a consistent and under 10. And the situation is getting worse, not better. extreme lack of insulin is entirely a result of forgetfulness. As the chairman of the all-party group, I have seen Clearly, the problem of diabetes in conjunction with some of the most horrific consequences of eating disorders, body-image issues is a more widespread threat, especially but if they can have that effect on otherwise healthy to young people, than is widely known. There are some young people—those who have previously been in good fairly obvious conclusions. Youngpeople must be convinced health—what effect can they have on someone who is to adhere to strict care processes, but efforts must also already vulnerable? be made to identify those who might have psychological 259WH Type 1 Diabetes (Young People)30 APRIL 2014 Type 1 Diabetes (Young People) 260WH issues and who could do with support by means of a succeeded in getting the health service in Northern united, combined approach to both their diabetes and Ireland to provide 400 insulin pumps for type 1 diabetics. their eating disorders. It is unusual to find a diabetes Getting the pumps is only one part of the story. The nurse with experience of eating disorders and an eating second part is to train people to use them, so the second disorders practitioner who knows about diabetes. We stage of the process has been training parents how to do must address that, and I urge the Minister to make a that. Good things have happened. response on it. I hope that this debate has drawn his Diabetes has increased in Northern Ireland, but it attention to these issues and that he will share with us has also increased worldwide. Type 1 and type 2 diabetes his views on what more can be done to identify, assist have increased by 33% in Northern Ireland, by 25% in and properly care for this important group of young England, by 20% in Wales and by 18% in Scotland, and people. some 24.5 children in every 100,000 aged 14 and under have diabetes. That shows the magnitude of the problem. 10.18 am The Minister is responsive and has a particular passion for health. He has attended, as have others in the Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the right Chamber, the type 1 diabetes events that have taken hon. Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) for bringing place here with young children. Those events have given this issue to our attention in Westminster Hall today. It us all a chance to see how important the issues are. We is good to have a subject that we can all relate to and on have far higher rates of diabetes in children than do which we can speak on behalf of our constituents. The Spain or France. In Northern Ireland, there are 1,092 right hon. Gentleman has knowledge of it on a very children under the age of 17 with type 1 diabetes, and personal basis. almost one in four of them experienced diabetic ketoacidosis I was just sitting here and thinking about those deep before a diagnosis was made. sleeps that people get into—not that we often have them, Mr Havard. Young children who are diabetic are In my constituency, the number of diabetics has gone woken out of their sleep and will wonder what is up by 30%, with 800 people becoming diabetic in the happening to them. Someone—one of their parents—takes past seven years. I should have registered an interest at their hand, pricks their finger and checks their blood. the beginning of my speech. I am a type 2 diabetic, and That is the reality that many children in the UK face I am one of those 800 people who were diagnosed in the today, and many parents have the same reality because past seven years. In our small part of the United Kingdom, they have to wake them up during the night and have to the total number of adults aged 17 and over who have set the alarm for that purpose. They have regularly to diabetes and are registered with GPs is just shy of monitor and check their child’s blood sugar levels. It is 76,000, and there are a further 1,092 under the age of surprising just how many children have to go through 17. Diabetes UK Northern Ireland has launched a that every day. report that highlights the latest findings into diabetes in Northern Ireland, and I think it is important to put The UK has the fifth highest rate in the world of those figures on record. The Diabetes UK Northern children with type 1 diabetes. In Northern Ireland, Ireland national director Iain Foster said: there are 1,092 children with type 1 diabetes. The hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark “The State of the Nation report is a timely and important piece Field), who has just left the Chamber, referred to there of work which highlights, not only that Northern Ireland has seen the biggest rise in people being diagnosed with diabetes compared being 400,000 diabetics in the United Kingdom. In to the rest of the UK but that there is a real difficulty in collecting Northern Ireland, we have almost 80,000; one fifth of data as Northern Ireland is not included in the National Diabetes the diabetics are in Northern Ireland. Audit. Our State of the Nation report gathers limited local information and we have found that there are now over 80,000 Mr Gregory Campbell: When my hon. Friend refers people living with diabetes in Northern Ireland.” to the high prevalence of diabetes in Northern Ireland, The official figure is just shy of 76,000, but the latest as well as across the UK, does he agree that need for figures from Diabetes UK Northern Ireland indicated greater emphasis on research, which has been repeatedly that more than 80,000 people are affected. Therefore, raised this morning, is a fundamental way to address within the past five years, there has been a 33% increase the increasing problem? The UK, and the various regions in Northern Ireland in the number of people living with thereof, must place greater emphasis on higher expenditure type 1 or type 2 diabetes. More than 100 new diagnoses and greater research to ensure that future generations are expected each year if the current trend continues, do not suffer in the same way as the present generation. and 4% of the local population now has a diagnosis of diabetes. Jim Shannon: I thank my hon. Friend for that contribution. He and other hon. Members have reiterated I cannot emphasise enough that diabetes is a ticking the need for research, including stem cell research, to time bomb, which has the potential not only to destroy enable us, I hope, to come up with a cure for diabetes. lives, but to bankrupt the NHS. The financial cost of The prevalence of diabetes in Northern Ireland is now diabetes cannot be discounted. I agree with Iain Foster: more than 4%. In addition to almost 80,000 people in “It is not enough to shout from the side-lines: ‘something must Northern Ireland who have diabetes, some 10,000 have be done’”— not yet been diagnosed. As an elected representative, I we have been talking today about what must be done, have had the opportunity to fight cases on behalf of and we want to see what will be done— parents who are under intense pressure because they “so instead we have outlined ways in which we think the situation have a type 1 diabetic child. In Northern Ireland, health could be helped, for example, working to enable access to available is devolved. We have been able to speak to the Minister, treatments including insulin pumps for both adults and children Edwin Poots, and through his office and through the and integrating diabetes clinical databases to create an accurate pressure that we and others have created, we have diabetes register.” 261WH Type 1 Diabetes (Young People)30 APRIL 2014 Type 1 Diabetes (Young People) 262WH

[Jim Shannon] they have diabetes. Others will admit the child but will insist that the parents come in to do the blood test and My hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann (David help the child deliver the insulin. That is not fair to the Simpson) and the right hon. Member for Knowsley parents, and it increases the overall cost of the condition referred to education. It is so important, as hon. Members to the taxpayer. have said, for teachers, classroom assistants and staff in In secondary school, there is the problem of the our schools to be aware of what it means to be a young people themselves, which has been mentioned. diabetic in school. In Northern Ireland, we have There are psychological difficulties inherent in having implemented a system of training for teachers and to set themselves apart from the rest of the school classroom assistants to ensure that they have the knowledge because they have a condition that requires them, from to deal with the condition. time to time, to test their blood sugars—that means a In conclusion, I ask the Minister to outline what simple finger prick to take blood out of their finger and co-operation exists between regional assemblies to deliver put it on to a test strip—and find somewhere healthy a better strategy for the whole United Kingdom. He will and clean to use their pen, which looks like a normal be aware of the 10-year strategy that ended in 2013. I pen but is in fact an injection device, to make an have asked on a number of occasions for a new strategy injection. to be put in place, because it is important that all the The next stage is higher education, where the young regions of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and person will move from their GP setting to a student Northern Ireland work together to deal with the problem. health service. Transition is a major issue, and every To address the issue of the many children who suffer young person with diabetes should experience a smooth from diabetes, and many more who are predicted to be transition to adult diabetes services at a stage and time diagnosed, we must take action and take it now. I right for them. Adolescents with diabetes have unique congratulate the right hon. Member for Knowsley on health requirements. They must cope with the biological, bringing the matter forward, and I urge the Minister to psychological and social transitions to becoming an do more than simply talk about it. He must take action adult while managing a chronic condition. Many people quickly, while there is still time to make safe this ticking experience deterioration in their control of their diabetes time bomb. in adolescence, and they are particularly vulnerable as their care is transferred from child to adult services. 10.26 am Adolescence is also a time when lifelong health behaviours Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD): I congratulate the are laid down, so transition must be carefully instigated right hon. Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) on at a time when the young person has sufficient clinical securing this important debate and on his comprehensive understanding of managing their condition to get the introduction to the problem. As has been said, the UK most out of the adult diabetes service. If that does not has the fifth highest rate of diabetes in the world and happen and young people are simply transferred to the fifth highest rate of diabetes among children aged adult services, they will often disengage with the service, up to 14 in Europe. It is important for us to do the best leading to poor control and an increased risk of long-term we can to help people with the condition. complications. I cannot emphasise enough the importance of getting The importance of getting transition right for young across the difference between type 1 and type 2 diabetes. people with diabetes is increasingly acknowledged across They are both chronic conditions, but type 1 is known the international health care arena. That is reflected in to be genetic while type 2 is a consequence of lifestyle the best practice tariff, which includes the criteria that and diet, and is not necessarily related to genetics. provider units must have a clear policy for the transition Consequently, the treatments for type 1 and type 2 are to adult services. Will the Minister explain why the best varied. People with type 2 can be treated mostly with a practice tariff cannot be extended—as was asked for change in diet and exercise, and some medication. earlier—to include all young people up to the age of 25? Increasingly, however, insulin injections are being prescribed The other big issue is the regional disparity of care. for people with type 2. People with type 1 are those The problem is not just about access to medical equipment whose pancreas has basically stopped producing insulin, such as insulin pumps, although really that should not and they have to take insulin via subcutaneous injections. be an issue at all. All children diagnosed with type 1 There is no alternative to that treatment for people with diabetes should be offered pump treatment on diagnosis, type 1. Additional medication can be added to the and I would like to ask the Minister a second question: insulin regime to reduce the risks of common complications why is that not so? Parents who have engaged with the that can affect all people with diabetes, such as stroke, paediatric diabetes peer review have expressed to me heart disease, sight loss and limb amputations. their concern at the plan to discontinue the programme Only one in five people with diabetes is type 1, and this September. most are diagnosed before the age of 40. I was fortunate As we have heard, there is huge regional discrepancy to have been diagnosed after I had finished full-time in the provision of care for children with diabetes, in education, because type 1 diabetes can have a major terms of both patient experience and outcomes, with impact on a young person’s life and health in many the number of children achieving target HbA1cs falling ways—educationally, socially and psychologically. One woefully short in some areas and compared with other of the major problems for children is how they treat countries. Parents have been very impressed by the themselves for their condition at school. There are three work of the networks to try to address variation and stages through which a young person has to go. There achieve considerable improvement. However, there is can be problems at primary school, which have been still a long way to go, and the audit can provide only referred to, where teachers may refuse to help the child benchmarks and goals, not strategies for achieving higher medicate. Some schools will not admit a child because standards. 263WH Type 1 Diabetes (Young People)30 APRIL 2014 Type 1 Diabetes (Young People) 264WH

The peer review programme, on the other hand, has Izzi has warned that, increasingly, type 1 young people been meticulously and carefully designed to address the are being refused disability living allowance, despite the causes of discrepancies in care standards. The programme massive extra burden on them and their families to managers and lead clinicians in each network have maintain their health. She had a DLA application worked hard to design a set of measures that enable turned down when she was 16, and it was obvious from teams to understand more fully how to provide the the assessor’s comments that there was very little highest standard of care for the children who attend understanding of her condition and how it needs to be their clinics. It seems that the peer review programme managed. For example, the assessor judged that Izzi’s has the power to drive change and raise standards age and the fact she has had her condition for many across the country, ensuring that children with diabetes years meant that she was able to deal with taking her can lead healthy and productive lives. medication without help. Izzi very much wishes that My third question to the Minister, therefore, is why is that were the case, but when she is severely hypo or the paediatric diabetes peer review programme being hyper, it simply is not. discontinued? The lifetime cost to the UK economy of After a great deal of extra work, she appealed against everyone living with type 1 today will be more than the decision and was awarded the lower rate of DLA for £55 billion. With the incidence rising, that figure will a further year—she had previously been on the middle only increase, and remember that only one in five people rate. Many people would not have challenged that decision with diabetes is type 1. The three priorities for type 1 or and might therefore be missing out on vital support. type 2 diabetes, whatever a person’s age, must therefore Izzi will still be only 17 when her DLA stops—not be prevention, early diagnosis and the best treatment to legally classified as an adult, but still supposed to be avoid expensive complications. Where young people are able to totally self-administer a potentially lethal drug concerned, whether children or young adults, we can several times a day, without any help or supervision—even and must do better. when she is not able to concentrate because of high or low blood sugar levels. On behalf of many other type 1 teenagers who are or have been in the same position, she 10.33 am wants Ministers to understand that reality. Izzi also wants to raise the issue of plans to scrap the Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): It is a national peer review programme, which the previous pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Havard. speaker mentioned. There are real concerns about the Like other Members, I congratulate the right hon. risk that that programme will end, as NHS England has Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) on securing such committed funds only until September. Across the country, an important debate. It is interesting how much cross-party there is a huge difference in the provision of care for agreement there is on this issue—I hope that that clear children with diabetes, in terms of both patient experience message is reaching the Minister. and outcomes. The peer review system provides important I shall be repeating some points that other Members information and opportunities to help improvement. I have made, but first I want to say a little about a young would like to draw my remarks to a close by identifying constituent of mine in Brighton with type 1 diabetes, a couple of areas in which peer review is important and with whom I have been working closely. We have been working for children, and the benefits that it brings to focusing particularly on good practice support for young families, as set out by the Families with Diabetes National people in schools. As a result, the local authority in Network. Brighton and Hove is now convening separate groups Peer review measures the extent to which teams can of parents, teachers and young people to talk through provide 24-hour cover as prescribed under the best ideas. My constituent, Izzi, is especially keen to develop practice tariff. That cover is essential for families because a system of mentors, where older pupils with type 1 can it avoids expensive hospitalisations, and serious concerns support younger pupils in school, particularly at stressful have been raised where cover is inadequate. Peer review times such as transition or during exams. highlights the extent of paediatric ward staff training to Some of the proposals we have been discussing are ensure that children with diabetes who are admitted to not rocket science—they are very simple, but would hospital can be looked after safely. That is a huge issue make a huge difference. For example, young people for families, and the peer review programme has helped should have a safe and pleasant place to go and inject. teams to understand better how to achieve ward staff That place should not be locked, as sometimes such training. Peer review also highlights the ongoing training places have been; it has meant that young people have of team members, ensuring that they are all trained to had to inject in the toilets. That gives the impression an appropriate level, which is key to the provision of that people are trying to push the issue away. As many good care for children. others have already said, we must address stigma, and Peer review measures the extent to which teams review one way to do that is to make injection far more normal patient feedback and take action accordingly. Families and provide much greater support for it in schools. can help teams to improve by providing that feedback, As others have said, it is important to stress that type and peer review ensures that it is both used and acted l diabetes is not just a medical condition. It can have on. It also measures the extent to which teams provide severe psychological and educational implications and self-management education to families. Self-management affect people in very different ways. Type 1 young education is essential in keeping children out of hospital people need to have medical and educational support and enabling them to achieve good control and avoid tailored to their individual needs. Just because a person complications. does not look ill, that does not mean that they are Peer review measures the extent to which teams support not juggling a vast number of factors to try to keep children in school, which is an essential pillar of good themselves well. self-management, and the programme has enabled teams 265WH Type 1 Diabetes (Young People)30 APRIL 2014 Type 1 Diabetes (Young People) 266WH

[Caroline Lucas] the risk of developing cardiovascular problems, such as heart attacks and stroke. The National Diabetes Audit to share strategies and documents and therefore to found that young people are the least likely of any disseminate best practice. Finally, peer review examines group to access these nine treatments. arrangements for the transition to adult care—arrangements We have also heard that type 1 diabetes is a chronic, that, as we know, are key to ensuring that young people life-threatening condition that has a lifelong impact on do not fall out of the system and develop complications those diagnosed with it and their families. It affects at such a critical age. The peer review programme has about 400,000 people in the UK, including 29,000 children, encouraged teams to work together to address the issues which is equivalent to more than 600 people in each relating to transition. constituency. Type 1 diabetes is not caused by lifestyle For all those reasons, along with the many others factors, such as obesity, poor diet or lack of exercise—I raised by Members this morning, I hope that the Minister should know; I have just run the London marathon on can assure us that he will look again at peer review. behalf of the Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation—and There is real concern about it, as well as about the level there is currently no way to prevent the condition. of research funding, and I would like to add my voice to People with type 1 diabetes rely on multiple insulin those who have said that the UK must do more research, injections or pump infusions every day, just to stay particularly for type 1 diabetes. alive; we know this. In 2014, a person with type 1 In conclusion, I welcome the opportunity to have this diabetes will on average undertake more than 2,000 debate and very much hope that it will increase awareness finger-prick blood tests, have 1,500 insulin injections of the needs of young people with diabetes. There are and count the carbohydrates in more than 1,000 meals. more than 25,000 young type 1 sufferers in the UK, and, like Izzi in my constituency, they all deserve the A child diagnosed with type 1 diabetes aged five faces very best chance. 19,000 injections by the time they are 18 years old. Since my diagnosis, I have been fortunate enough to meet many young people with the condition and each and 10.39 am every one of them inspires me. I am incredibly grateful for the work that they do through the Juvenile Diabetes Mr Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab): I, too, thank my Research Foundation and through Diabetes UK. Their right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth). advocacy is superb and their voice is becoming louder, I know how much this means to him and his family. I but I say to them that it needs to become much louder am genuinely grateful for all the work that he does in still. this regard. This is a vitally important debate. We have had a Good blood glucose control is hard to achieve. Type tremendous debate today, involving hon. Members from 1 diabetes reduces life expectancy by approximately all parties, providing us with a brief opportunity to deal 12.5 years in people with the condition aged 20 to with important issues that have stood neglected for too 24 years old, compared with similarly aged adults without long. People with type 1 diabetes are not receiving the the condition. High blood glucose can cause very serious services they need or the support that they deserve; this long-term damage to the body. On average, complications is a fact. Often—let us be honest about it—we debate of type 1 diabetes set in 20 years after diagnosis, meaning pure opinion, but it is an absolute fact that people with that a child diagnosed at age five may begin to show type 1 diabetes are not getting the level of services that signs of damage that can lead to sight loss, kidney they require. disease, limb amputation, heart attacks and stroke by the age of only 25. I declare an interest as someone who has lived with type 1 diabetes for four years, after being hospitalized as Just 6.7% of children with diabetes in England and an undiagnosed type 1 diabetic suffering from advanced Wales, 96% of whom have type 1 diabetes, are receiving diabetic ketoacidosis, two weeks before the last general their full set of annual recommended checks. That is a election. The things people do to get out of it! I have national scandal and it should shame these Houses of never particularly enjoyed talking about the condition, Parliament. Type 1 diabetes in young children presents principally because our medical histories are our own more than a health burden. In 2011, members of the private business, but also because of the risk this poses parent group, Children with Diabetes, reported that of allowing others to define me as a person and as a 60% of families had to change their working arrangements politician. As the hon. Member for Torbay (Mr Sanders) and almost half—48%—had seen a significant drop in has proven, reservations that people might have about their family income. Shockingly, as we have heard, more people with the condition are unfounded. The longer I than half felt that their child had been bullied as a result live with the condition—it is important to point out of having type 1 diabetes. that this is a condition and not a disease—the more Type 1 also brings with it an increased risk of depression, angry and frustrated I become with the treatment I with 32% of people with type 1 diabetes showing signs receive and, more importantly, about the treatment that of depression, compared with 16% in the general public. other people living with the condition receive. In addition, type 1 diabetes leads to huge costs for the The National Institute for Health and Care Excellence health service and the wider economy. The lifetime cost recommends that type 1 diabetics should receive nine to the UK economy of everyone living with type 1 key tests for diabetes care every year, yet thousands are diabetes today is more than £55 billion. This figure is missing out on these tests. In the four years that I have only going one way, and that is up. In 2014, conservative been a type 1 diabetic, only once have I received all nine estimates suggest that type 1 diabetes will cost the NHS tests. These tests are essential to ensure that diabetes is £1 billion directly and a further £1 billion to the wider controlled. If left unchecked, diabetes can, as we heard, economy more generally, excluding a number of treatment lead to blindness and kidney failure, and can increase costs. 267WH Type 1 Diabetes (Young People)30 APRIL 2014 Type 1 Diabetes (Young People) 268WH

In 2008-09, the Medical Research Council invested quality of care available for patients with type 1 diabetes, £6.6 million in type 1 diabetes research, but unfortunately is of great credit to him and helped set the tone for a that fell to £3.9 million in 2010-11 and £4 million in consensual debate. It is also a pleasure to respond to the 2011-12. In short, we are spending less than half the per right hon. Gentleman formally, because he responded capita figure spent in Australia—the hon. Member for to my maiden speech when I was first accepted into the Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field) made House. He was kind to me then and I hope that my this point earlier—and less than a third of the United response will do this debate justice and will bring some States per capita figure, and the Canadians spend almost comfort to hon. Members who have raised concerns. three times as much per capita as we do. Will the Minister explain why? I also pay tribute to hon. Members’ contributions to the debate. As always, the hon. Member for Strangford Incidence of type 1 diabetes is growing at a rate of (Jim Shannon) makes important points about how, about 4% each year. The recent report “Impact Diabetes” although we have devolved health systems, we need to estimates that 650,000 people in the UK will live with learn lessons from best practice throughout England the condition by 2035, if incidence continues at the and Northern Ireland. It is important, even in a devolved same rate. That report also estimates that by 2035-36 health system, that we work collaboratively together to the direct cost to the NHS of treating type 1 diabetes improve standards of care. I will try to deal with points will be £1.7 billion and the indirect cost to the UK more raised in the contributions from the right hon. Member generally will be an additional £3 billion. for Tynemouth (Mr Campbell) and the hon. Member The UK has the fifth highest incidence of type 1 for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas). diabetes in the world and it is increasing at an alarming rate. Research is the key to addressing this growing My hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London problem, but UK Government funding for type 1 research and Westminster (Mark Field) eloquently outlined for has fallen significantly. Let us be honest; this reduction all of us what this means on a day-to-day basis for a is jeopardising our position as Europe’s number one young person with type 1 diabetes. In many respects, place for type 1 diabetes research and investigation and that sets out the challenge for our health service: working I passionately believe that this is letting people with together with the education sector and with other parts type 1 diabetes down. of our health and care system, it needs to help improve the day-to-day quality of life for people with type 1 The truth is that we are failing people with type 1 diabetes. My hon. Friend the Member for Torbay diabetes. As a nation we need a war effort—I am not (Mr Sanders) made a similar point. My hon. Friend the ashamed to say it—in our work to improve treatments Member for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline and services for people, particularly young people living Nokes) raised the importance of research funding. I with type 1 diabetes. We must ensure that every young will address those points later in my remarks. person with type 1 diabetes receives the nine annual tests. Will the Minister explain how he thinks this can As we have heard, type 1 diabetes has a potentially be done and what he will do about it? devastating effect on children’s health. Poor diabetic Too often I hear from type 1 diabetics and their control for children increases their risk of developing families that they cannot access insulin pumps, that long-term complications over the course of their lives—we blood glucose monitoring strips are being rationed and have heard about renal complications, diabetic retinopathy that it is getting harder to access primary care to get the and the consequences of diabetes-related peripheral help they need to manage their condition. Will the neuropathy.Such consequences are potentially life changing, Minister take a close interest and deal with these issues and so it is important that we do all that we can to where they arise around the country? There is huge, address them and to support people with type 1 diabetes. clear geographical disparity and it needs some close It is a question not just of early diagnosis but of the Government attention. right care and support in the secondary care setting, in I will write in detail to the Minister about what needs primary care and in the community, to give better to happen to improve the lives of people with type 1 support to people with the condition so that they can diabetes. What is needed is more attention and stay well and be properly looked after. That is a challenge understanding and more research and resource, to ensure that we face in all aspects of the care that we provide to that people with type 1 diabetes receive the care that young people. they deserve. I look forward to the Minister’s reply. The children and young people’s health outcomes forum, which was set up by my right hon. Friend the 10.47 am Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley), highlighted a number of challenges faced by children The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health with long-term conditions such as diabetes and by their (Dr Daniel Poulter): It is a pleasure to serve under your families. It is worth highlighting two or three. The first chairmanship for the second time this week, the first was that there are poor arrangements for transition to time being during the Defence Committee sitting yesterday. adulthood—that has been highlighted throughout our I pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Knowsley debate. Secondly, there is a need for better integration (Mr Howarth) for securing the debate and for his articulate of care, with co-ordination around the patient—the and reasoned contribution to it, and for his passionate child or young person. We need a comprehensive, advocacy of the needs of people with type 1 diabetes. multidisciplinary team approach to care, with a much He has family experience of these issues that will have greater emphasis on better support for young people in strongly informed his understanding of them. The balanced, the community and in their own homes. There also perceptive way that he approached the debate, raising needs to be much speedier diagnosis of long-term important issues, particularly about tariff-setting, which conditions in young people, including asthma, diabetes is in my view the strongest and best way to drive up the and epilepsy. 269WH Type 1 Diabetes (Young People)30 APRIL 2014 Type 1 Diabetes (Young People) 270WH

[Dr Daniel Poulter] I am glad to say that investment in type 1 diabetes research by the Medical Research Council and the The NHS atlas of variation has identified an unacceptable National Institute for Health Research has risen from variation between different areas, a point raised by the more than £5.8 million in 2011-12 to more than £6.5 million shadow Minister. That is clearly unacceptable to us all. in 2012-13. The National Institute for Health Research There is variation in the quality of management of is funding a £1.5 million trial focusing on children and children’s diabetes, and in the number of children with young people with type 1 diabetes, which is comparing previously diagnosed diabetes admitted to hospital for outcomes for patients treated with multiple daily insulin diabetic ketoacidosis. We all know, then, that we have injections to outcomes for those using pumps, one year some way to go on improving the care of children and and five years after diagnosis. The report of the trial is young people with diabetes. I hope my remarks will be due to be published in a few months. When we are able to give some reassurance that we are now firmly on looking at how best to support people with type 1 the right track, particularly with our best practice tariff. diabetes in leading as normal a life as possible, whether that be in education or in the workplace, it is important that we understand which interventions and methods of Jim Shannon: In my contribution I outlined the diabetes support work best. I am sure that that research will put strategy that was in place for the 10 years up to 2013. I us in a much better place on that. have asked Ministers about that issue a number of times and am keen to see a continuing initiative for a UK-wide strategy. Will the Minister give us an idea of his intentions Mr Jamie Reed: Is the Minister aware of the JDRF’s in that regard? That strategy could address regional “#CountMeIn” campaign? It is calling for an investment variations. of £12 million per annum by the MRC and NIHR to bring the UK in line with recent per capita spending by Governments internationally. Has he given any thought Dr Poulter: As I mentioned earlier, it is important to that and if so will he comment on it? that we learn from good practice, not just in the UK but elsewhere. A key driver of improving practice is clinical audit of the quality of services delivered. Outcomes for Dr Poulter: With research funding there is often a people with diabetes in England will also be assessed by bidding process, and it is up to organisations to bid for the national diabetes audit, which includes a core audit, funding. I am pleased that the amount of money going the national in-patient diabetes audit, a diabetes pregnancy into diabetes research is improving and that there is a audit, the national patient experience of diabetes services now a project specifically on type 1 diabetes that is survey and the national diabetes foot audit, which is looking at the impact of different interventions and due to be launched this summer. Having that high support—such as the use of pumps—on young people’s quality comparative data, gathered through clinical audit lives to see which methods work better. The emphasis is from different care settings across the UK, will help us not just on clinical outcomes but on how young people’s to understand where services are and are not delivered experience and quality of life is affected, so that that is well. Audits in particular care settings always make taken into account in how we look at diabetes. Health recommendations for improvement, and the following care research funding is moving in the right direction, year there is another audit. Exposing where care is good and not just for diabetes—research funding has or not so good and putting in place plans for improvement increased considerably over the past few years in a on the ground will be a big step forward. At a national number of areas of health care, something that we level, we can then look at which improvement plans should welcome. have worked and which have been less successful. That As we know, NICE has national standards, but in the learning is a good way of driving up standards and can few minutes left I want to discuss the best practice tariff. be shared with Northern Ireland and other devolved The way that we set up commissioning arrangements parts of the United Kingdom, and indeed on an and the best practice tariff will help us make a difference international basis. I believe that in this country we are in the future. The tariff ensures that payment is linked historically good at collecting data. The purpose of to the quality of care provided, an important driver of national audits is to drive up standards of care, which is how services are delivered to patients. why NHS England is putting many more national audits I will briefly set out aspects of the diabetes best in place throughout the health service. We will be able practice tariff. A young person’s diagnosis is to be to compare what is done in different care settings, learn discussed with a senior member of paediatric diabetes where care needs to be better and drive up standards team within 24 hours of presentation, to get early throughout our health service. specialist support in place. All new patients are to be We all understand the importance of the integration seen by a member of the specialist paediatric diabetes of mental health care and diabetes care for the young team on the same or the next working day, and each people who have serious health issues resulting from patient is to have a structured education programme, that combination of issues, which puts them at high risk tailored to their needs and the needs of their family, to of complications and premature death. The Government support them and help them understand how they can are investing £54 million over four years to enhance the better cope with their condition and manage it themselves children and young people’s improving access to as best as they can. The tariff places a strong emphasis psychological therapies—CYP IAPT—programme. That on multidisciplinary team work, including support from programme is helping to transform services through dieticians—we have heard about issues connected to training in evidence-based therapies to support children eating disorders, and dieticians will have a key role and young people with a range of mental health issues. on that. Many other aspects of the tariff focus on I am sure we all support that programme and want to multidisciplinary working to put things on a better see it expanded further. basis for young people with diabetes. 271WH Type 1 Diabetes (Young People) 30 APRIL 2014 272WH

The right hon. Member for Knowsley raised a number Bowling Greens of other issues in the debate; I will write to him about those matters. The issue is complex and important, but I hope that I have been able to offer some reassurance. 11 am The tariff and the increased spending on research mean that we are moving to a better place with our support John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): for people with type 1 diabetes. It is a pleasure, Mr Havard, to serve under your chairmanship. I sought this debate on behalf of bowlers— crown and flat green alike—who are facing a growing crisis that is emerging not only in the game’s traditional heartlands, such as my constituency of Barrow and Furness in the north-west of England, but wherever the cry of “jack high” is heard. Bowling is part of the fabric of these islands. Its precise origins are obscured by the mists of time, but a form of the sport that we know today was certainly flourishing on Plymouth Hoe as far back as 1588. On the Hoe, as elsewhere in the country, the game in under threat. The reassuring click of kissing wood is gradually being replaced by the unsettling clank of mechanical diggers ripping up greens in every corner of Britain. Local bowlers, led by green keeper Keith Mills, first alerted me to this problem soon after I became MP for Barrow and Furness at the previous election. Seven Furness greens had been redeveloped since the mid-1990s, and there were fears that more could follow. The “Hands off our Bowling Greens” campaign was born on College Green just across the way. With a bit of mowing and rolling, it would make a surprisingly good bowling green. My ten-minute rule Bill, the Protection of Bowling Greens (Development Control) Bill, was presented to the House in March 2011. The combined pressure resulted in a promise of action from the Government. On August bank holiday three years ago, the Minister’s Department for Communities and Local Government announced that bowling greens would receive greater protection under the national planning policy framework. That move was, of course, welcome, but since then it has all gone very quiet and greens continue to disappear. In written answers, Ministers have not been able to tell me how many greens have been designated as local green spaces under the new powers. The Minister may have the figures at his fingertips now in his reply. Our greens continue to be trapped in a vicious pincer movement. Council-owned greens are falling victim to spending cuts—as in the case of the one I recently visited at Hove at the invitation of superb local parliamentary candidate, Peter Kyle. The local Green party-run council, no less, is threatening the future of well-used greens. It is hard to believe that it is using one of them as a dumping ground for refuse. Many privately owned lawns are tempting prospects for development, especially if the pub or social club to which they are attached is struggling financially. As greens shut down in an area, players drift away. It is estimated that around 40% of bowlers where a green closes leave the game altogether, even if there is another green half a mile or so down the road. These bowling greens are at the heart of their local communities, providing social interaction as well as physical activity. Too often, we see underhand tactics from the owners of greens to make them appear unused and thereby smooth the path to selling them off, right down to some examples, including one in my constituency 273WH Bowling Greens30 APRIL 2014 Bowling Greens 274WH

[John Woodcock] one September morning in 2009 and found that the electricity and the water at the club house had been that I will go into in a more detail in a moment, of turned off and the gates to the green had had the locks bowlers finding the locks on the gates to the greens changed. Those appalling tactics were designed to put super-glued shut. the green out of use forcibly and soften it up for Only last month, another story emerged. I am grateful redevelopment. That is the fate that has befallen too to Mel Evans, a friend, a bowls commentator and many bowling organisations that were attached to pubs keeper of the flame in Staffordshire, who was recently and clubs. deservedly awarded an MBE for services to the sport. Thirdly, the charter calls for the creation of a community He provided me with fresh information that McKechnie’s right to buy for any green where disposal is agreed to by club in Aldridge in the west midlands has become one the planning authority. Where a club is prepared to of the latest community clubs to come under threat. commit to keeping the green in use, bowlers would be That bowling green was attached to a once-booming given the opportunity to buy it on the basis of its factory that has closed down. The bowls team played in market value as—this is really important—a sporting a number of local leagues and its members were told facility, which is often much more affordable than the just a few weeks ago that they must vacate their premises amount developers are prepared to pay. and find another home. Such short notice has caused a Fourthly, the charter calls for extra support for bowlers crisis for members that they are still grappling with. who want to form co-operatives to run threatened greens. That is another example of how economic woes in We should help clubs that are willing to form such apparently unrelated sectors are threatening the game co-ops to preserve their prized assets. This is a field in of bowls. which Supporters Direct has blazed a trail for other Some people might ask why that matters. Bowling sports. The Co-op club in Barrow has flourished since helps form the sinews that make this country great, taking that route to protect its green. When its members obviously, but there is even more to it than that. The were offered the green and clubhouse by the Co-op, health costs alone of seeing greens closed could be people living in the vicinity even gave extra money enormous. Think of the savings to social care and the towards the cost to prevent the land from being built NHS from keeping older people active—physically, mentally on. and socially—longer into retirement. So how about it? Does the Minister want to sign up Bowling is for all ages. I am a retired crown green to our charter today? I have a copy right here if he bowler, having played in the junior leagues in Sheffield wishes, but if he wants a bit of time to mull it over, will in my youth. It is obviously particularly popular among he at least answer the following questions? older people. It is a top 10 sport in this country, although Have the Government made any assessment of whether it receives nothing like top 10 billing around the country the local green spaces designation powers announced in and on the nation’s media. It is a vital antidote to the 2011 are effective in protecting bowling greens? How sedentary lifestyle that some older players might otherwise many greens have been protected through that process? lead. For the price of keeping open a bowling green—under Are communities finding the rules and regulations too £10,000 a year—the potential is there to save far more bureaucratic, as we fear? in reduced health care costs. Will the Government consider a community right-to-buy There are groups valiantly taking action. Bowls England scheme specifically for bowling greens, where they are and the British Crown Green Bowling Association do a in active use and threatened by development, with the sterling job on behalf of bowlers across the country. right of a vote by the bowlers themselves—the people Organisations such as Fields in Trust offer support with who actively take part in the sport and not the wider recreational land protection to communities. Sport England, club, where sometimes, financial fears can overtake the according to figures it gave me yesterday, has so far poor, embattled team members? offered support to 54 clubs from the inspired facilities Will the Minister agree to raise the protection of fund, totalling nearly £2 million. However, we need to bowling greens linked to pubs with major pub chains, do so much more. which may be able to make a difference? Will he join the To mark the start of the new bowling season, last Department of Health in commissioning a study to month I was proud to launch, alongside Peter Kyle, the quantify what I hope we both agree are the undoubted Labour Bowlers’ Charter at the Hove and Kingsway health benefits and savings to the NHS and social care Bowling Club on the south coast. We and local bowlers budgets from people continuing to bowl? became the charter’s first signatories at a club that has Finally, will the Minister agree to join the House of lost three greens owing to cuts. Although that is a Commons team in the first annual House of Lords Labour initiative, I think the point of the charter can versus House of Commons bowling match in July, command cross-party support and would certainly do adding his no doubt great skills to the elected side and so much in offering greater protection to the sport and showing his support for Britain’s bowlers? to the conservative estimate of 400,000 people who regularly enjoy it. Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair): With no bias, Mr Boles. The charter calls first for an end to active bowling greens being designated as surplus to requirements 11.13 am by local planning authorities, thereby allowing the redevelopment of the greens—building over them—to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for go ahead. Secondly, it calls a halt to the practice of Communities and Local Government (Nick Boles): It is a locking bowlers out of their greens. I am sorry to tell pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Havard, the Minister, but it was at Dalton’s Conservative club in and to discuss a matter that is close to my heart, to my my constituency where bowlers turned up for practice name and to lots of other things. 275WH Bowling Greens30 APRIL 2014 Bowling Greens 276WH

I congratulate the hon. Member for Barrow and Localism takes place, as it were, on many different Furness (John Woodcock) on securing a debate on a levels. There is the level of individual community groups, matter that not only concerns his constituency, but neighbourhood groups and the like, and there are the many constituencies, including one he mentioned where democratically elected authorities that represent them, I previously stood as the parliamentary candidate—Hove such as district councils, county councils and metropolitan and Portslade. I was very familiar with the bowling councils. Ultimately, the decision making about whether greens and bowling clubs there and with the important to list an asset as an asset of community value, with the role that they play in providing recreation, fresh air and protections, therefore, that flow out of that, has to rest social contact for many people, and particularly retired with a democratically accountable body, which is the people in that community. local authority. Therefore, a community interest group I also welcome the debate because we heard a poetic needs to persuade its local authority—the only authority speech from the hon. Gentleman about the virtues and that has a democratic mandate to make such decisions history of bowling. Conservative Members have a great on behalf of the public—to accept the proposal to affection for the great Englishman who was found designate something as an asset of community value. playing bowls in Plymouth when the Spanish decided to I am fortunately now informed that a community come knocking. It is perhaps a little unfair of me, but I interest group can be just 21 local people on the electoral always thought that as a buccaneer in an early version register in the area in which the asset is located, so of the global race, Sir Francis was clearly a Conservative hopefully, even if, as the hon. Gentleman says, they are supporter. just a subset of the membership of a broader club, On protections for bowling greens, I understand entirely finding 21 people to form such a community interest the hon. Gentleman’s concerns. In time, when he is group is within the reach of most existing bowling serving as a Minister in a Department of State—in greens. 10 or 20 years—he will discover one of the features of I thought that the hon. Gentleman had possibly Government, which is that people legislate, and create applied for this debate, in part, to celebrate a decision new powers and possibilities, and it is often a very long that was made very recently—indeed, only a week ago. time before those to whom powers and possibilities It was one of the very first appeals that we are aware of have been given take them up with the enthusiasm and against a decision by a district council to register a gusto that the Government had originally intended. In bowls club as an asset of community value. I will spend the Localism Act 2011, as he mentioned, we created a little time explaining that decision. powers that had never existed before on the statute book to designate places as local green spaces—in a Rother district council decided on 16 September 2013 sense, as a planning matter, to say that a particular piece to include the site of Gullivers bowls club at Bexhill-on-Sea of ground that is open and green has a value to the on its list of community assets, and there was an appeal community, and people want it to be recognised as that, against that decision. The owner of a bowls club, or and then any planning decision needs to take that into some other party, quite properly has the right to appeal account as a material consideration in considering any against a decision in which they have an interest. I am proposal to build on a local green space. delighted to report that the first-tier tribunal general We also created the concept of an asset of community regulatory chamber, which for some reason hears such value and the ability to register various kinds of community appeals rather than the Planning Inspectorate, found assets as assets of community value, with particular that it was entirely proper for Rother district council to protections stemming from that. The asset of community register Gullivers bowls club on its list of community value provision gives a community the ability to say that assets. a particular asset can only be put up for sale—and for Such decisions include a test of whether the criteria sale with a view to convert it into some other use—after for an asset of community value have been met by a the community has been given an opportunity to bid for bowls club. An important criterion is that the bowling that asset. They have to register their interest in bidding, green is still sustainable in its current use and, as the and then they have a six-month moratorium in which hon. Gentleman points out, has not become neglected. no transaction or sale can take place in order to be able I was truly shocked to hear of the case he mentioned in to put together a bid for an asset that is designated in which a bowls club’s locks were superglued shut. I have that way. That provision has great potential power, if no doubt that if such evidence were presented to any only authorities would use it. appeal or tribunal, it would dramatically undermine any claims that a bowling green is no longer in use and John Woodcock: It was really useful to take through therefore no longer sustainable. It is clearly not fair if that provision. Will the Minister say what the definition people who want to play bowls cannot access a bowling of a community is in that regard? The concern to which green. I alluded was that sometimes the bowling club forms a I hope the hon. Gentleman and those who are keen minority in the community, but nevertheless, its needs on the sport of bowls will take encouragement from this and the bowling green’s value should not be ignored debate that powers and provisions already exist. The and overruled by a larger group. local green space power is important but, if anything, the asset of community value power is more important. Nick Boles: That is a very good question. I shall ask Within that power—he talked about the right to buy—there for support—for a definition of a community interest is a community right to bid. A community can say, group. Meanwhile, I will go on to explain how it works, “This is an asset that we want to preserve in its current then come back to that point. use, and we want to have a bit of time to raise money Ultimately, the point of the Localism Act was to do through a local appeal, or whatever it is, to acquire that what it said on the tin, which was to further localism. asset and retain it in its existing use.” 277WH Bowling Greens 30 APRIL 2014 278WH

John Woodcock: I thank the Minister for giving way Catholic Schools (Admissions) again. This is all helpful. He mentioned at the beginning of his speech the difficulties found between setting out the Government’s intentions, putting in place the needed [JIM DOBBIN in the Chair] legislative changes and the time it takes for those changes to reach fruition. I am sure he has a sense of the difficulty of translating those intentions on the ground, 2.30 pm even once the changes have been made. How will he Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): It is a great monitor how the changes actually work on the ground pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dobbin. and address our fear that the powers are either not As we gather today to discuss matters of education and known or seen as too bureaucratic? those who dedicate their lives to it, all our thoughts and prayers are naturally with the family of Ann Maguire Nick Boles: The hon. Gentleman asks a reasonable and all the children and staff at Corpus Christi Catholic question, and to some extent I throw it back at him. I college in Leeds. am happy to work with him, and with any associations that exist in the sport, to write to every bowling green This debate was originally in the name of my hon. and bowling club in the country to make them aware of Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier). He the powers under the Localism Act to register as an secured the debate, but he sends his apologies for being asset of community value and as a local green space, to unable to attend owing to a long-standing engagement draw their attention to the two bowling greens of which at the Ministry of Defence in Glasgow for his work on we are aware—there is not only the Rother case that we reserves. I am grateful to him for the opportunity to have just discussed but a bowling green in Camden, speak in his place and to Mr Speaker for allowing the too—that have been registered as assets of community transfer. value and to make them aware that the bowling green in The Catholic Church is this country’s largest provider Rother was able to sustain that position against a challenge. of secondary education, and it is the second biggest The designation was upheld on appeal. Hopefully, we name in primary education. Altogether, the Catholic will be able to encourage other bowling greens to take Church educates more than 800,000 children in more up that right, because it may be the case that, first, they than 2,000 schools. The Catholic Church has always are not aware of the right and that, secondly, even local seen education as vital to the formation and development authorities are not necessarily completely up to speed of the whole person, and historically it has prioritised on how the right works and how other people are using the building of schools in England, even over building it. I am happy to ensure that bowling greens and bowling churches. clubs across the country are aware of those rights, but I At their heart, Catholic schools always have a mission might need to work with him and through him to do so. to provide for underprivileged children and serve a Finally, the hon. Gentleman invited me to join a Catholic population that has primarily been made up of match. I hope he understands, as he would if he had many waves of immigrants from France, Ireland, south ever witnessed me take part in any athletic activity, and Asia, the Philippines, Africa, eastern Europe and elsewhere. certainly any activity involving a moving ball, that I Under the Education Act 1944 —the Butler Act—Catholic decided long ago at the start of my political career that I schools became voluntary-aided schools, part of the would say no to any invitation to partake in a sport. If it state system but with a distinct Catholic ethos guaranteed satisfies him, however, I would be pleased to attend and through various legal protections. Unlike the Church of cheer on the more able participants. England, which is the established Church in this country, the Catholic Church has always established its schools 11.25 am primarily to educate Catholic children and puts substantial Sitting suspended. resources into that effort. These days, the figure is some £20 million a year. Catholic schools today are high performers in the state sector. On average, they get higher Ofsted ratings for overall effectiveness, pastoral care and various other criteria. Their results are above average at the ages of seven, 11 and 16, and they perform strongly on value-added measures. Such schools are also plugged into their local communities. At secondary level, two in five Catholic schools are judged by Ofsted to be making an outstanding contribution to their local community, which compares with one in four schools overall. A key question is whether all that is just a coincidence and, if not, what the driving factors are behind that performance.

Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on standing in for the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier), who secured this debate. I often hear from a small number of constituents that they feel Catholic schools must be selecting only the cream of pupils. Would the hon. Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) like to put on record his observations on that point? 279WH Catholic Schools (Admissions)30 APRIL 2014 Catholic Schools (Admissions) 280WH

Damian Hinds: I will happily do so: I contend that the There is a school about a mile from here across the ethos and character of Catholic schools, although they river that may be a contender for England’s most diverse are not the only factors, are key contributors to the school: St Anne’s Catholic primary school in SE11. The performance of such schools in all senses. It is categorically school’s pupils come from a wide variety of ethnic not the case that Catholic schools get better results by backgrounds. Half of key stage 2 pupils are classed as being some sort of middle-class filtering service. disadvantaged, with most coming from the immediate wards, which are among the poorest in London. The Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): I, school’s deprivation indicator is in the top 10%, but too, congratulate the hon. Gentleman on introducing there are also families from higher income brackets. this debate. I associate myself with his remarks on the Altogether, pupils speak 32 different mother tongues, tragedy in Leeds, which is close to my constituency. It is and 99% of pupils have English as an additional language, an awful thing to happen. which is what we used to call English as a foreign language. The one thing that almost all pupils have in I press the hon. Gentleman on the point raised by my common is their faith, with more than 95% being baptised hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent South Catholics. (Robert Flello). When I chaired the Select Committee on Education, we found real evidence that many Christian That is a striking example—that is why we politicians schools, both Catholic and Anglican—I am an active use such examples—but overall the profile of Catholic Christian myself—manage to get far fewer people from schools is more diverse than schools in the maintained poorer backgrounds than one would expect from any sector in general. At primary level, the proportion of interpretation of the population both inside and outside schools at which more than 5% of pupils do not speak the Catholic community. There is evidence, and surely English as their mother tongue is 57% for Catholic the hon. Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) schools and 38% for schools overall. Some 34.5% of must worry about that. Catholic primary school pupils are from ethnic minority backgrounds, compared with 28.5% in the maintained sector as a whole; at secondary level, the figures are 30% Damian Hinds: That would be a worry. I never had for Catholic schools and 24% for other schools. the privilege of serving under the hon. Gentleman’s The proportion of children on free school meals at distinguished chairmanship of the Education Committee, Catholic schools is somewhat lower on average than at although when I subsequently served on the Committee, other schools, and there are various explanations for we had a session on similar matters, and we did not find that, but I do not think we know the answer conclusively. that to be the case. Depending on our point of view and One thing that we do know conclusively is that pupils at the point that one is trying to make, we can draw Catholic schools tend to come from poorer places than boundaries around schools in different ways. We can children at schools in general. At secondary level, 17% draw an immediate boundary or a wider boundary. A of children at Catholic schools are from the most deprived little later, I will go through some of the actual statistics wards, compared with 12% for schools overall. At both on the intake of Catholic schools. primary and secondary, Catholic schools over-index in the bottom four deciles and under-index in the top six Mr Sheerman: The hon. Gentleman is being kind in deciles. giving way again. The Education Committee’s report—I The diversity of Catholic schools, notwithstanding am looking at the hon. Member for Isle of Wight the water boundaries of some places, is partly due to the (Mr Turner), who was a member of the Committee at potential for much larger catchment areas. Typically, a the time—recommended a mandatory code for admissions, Catholic school may have a catchment area 10 times the which made a difference. Under the mandatory code, size of a typical community school’s catchment area. I schools have to obey a fair admissions policy. That is saw a bit of that in my own schooling. The school that I why, when the Education Committee returned to the went to in south Manchester had kids from leafy north matter, many of the problems had been resolved. Cheshire, but it also had kids from Stretford, Old Trafford, Stockport and Warrington. It really had a very wide Damian Hinds: Catholic schools and all maintained, intake. state-funded schools are, of course, subject to fair Schools must comply with the schools admissions admissions procedures, which I will address later. code, and over-subscription policies mean that Catholic schools typically give priority to Catholic children over Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): Will my the wider area and welcome others where there is remaining hon. Friend bear in mind that some areas have no capacity. That system enables more parents who desire boundaries other than the sea? The Isle of Wight has a Catholic education for their children to get one, the best secondary school, a Catholic-Anglican school, bearing in mind that it is a minority religion in this and it can be chosen by anyone. country, so the population is likely to be more sparsely spread. Damian Hinds: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s As has been mentioned, the admissions criteria of unique geographical perspective. This comes up time faith schools make regular media space-fillers. Headlines and again, and I will shortly address some of those have included, “Faith schools ‘biased towards middle instances, but on the key point of whether Catholic classes’”, “Faith schools ‘skewing admissions rules’” schools are some sort of filtering device for middle-class, and, “Faith school admissions ‘unfair to immigrants’”. wealthy and bright kids, the answer is no. That would be Those came respectively from the Daily Mail, The Daily a fundamental misunderstanding of the demographic Telegraph and The Guardian after the publication of the profile of this country’s Catholic population, the location schools adjudicator report in 2010. As was alluded to, of those schools and the communities that they serve. we had the chief adjudicator into the Education Committee 281WH Catholic Schools (Admissions)30 APRIL 2014 Catholic Schools (Admissions) 282WH

[Damian Hinds] Catholic schools distinctive and sought after. If they were open to all, they would lose their distinctive to discuss that report, which was extremely fair and character—not immediately, but over time. balanced and made hardly any reference to faith schools. Schools can withstand some variety, which is a good Somehow, between the publication of that report, the thing, in admissions. The proportion of non-Catholic press conference and journalists filing their copy, the children at Catholic schools today is 30%, which is story became about bell ringing, schools insisting that probably higher than most people realise. A 50% cap on parents clean churches and giving priority to white admissions would gradually erode that character in two middle-class families. I do not know about you, Mr Dobbin, ways. It would not only erode it directly by diluting the but I struggle to think of many Catholic churches that religious nature of the school’s population, but indirectly, even have a bell tower. Anyone saying that people who because Catholic parents would cease to see a distinction clean churches having priority somehow advantages between those schools and entirely non-denominational white middle-class families has a poor understanding of schools, as my hon. Friend the Member for Fareham the demographics of those who clean churches. (Mr Hoban) effectively argued in a recent debate in this place. Put simply, a half-Catholic school is not the same Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): Does the hon. thing as a Catholic school. Gentleman acknowledge that the London Oratory school withdrew that requirement from its admissions criteria The 50% cap is not in the coalition agreement, but is as a result of the adjudicator’s ruling? an interpretation of some of its wording. We would probably all agree that it was well-intentioned, because there is concern about diversity, inclusiveness and mixing Damian Hinds: I will tell the hon. Gentleman what I in schools, and I understand the sensitivities around acknowledge: there are 2,000 Catholic schools in this those topics. As I hope that I have demonstrated, Catholic country, and one of them is the London Oratory school. schools are more diverse than the average, with mixing When these stories come up, they always centre on beyond that available in the average school. The cap is literally a handful of schools, virtually all of which are inhibiting the creation of new quality schools that will in west or south-west London. They are in no way be just as sought after. It is clear that the 50% cap representative of Catholic education as a whole, whether directly precludes the creation of Catholic free schools, in location, resident population or type of school and because the Catholic Church feels unable to support, so on. with all the implications of commitment that that brings, new so-called Catholic schools that would in the end Mr Sheerman: We all know why London Oratory have to turn away some families seeking a Catholic became so well known: Tony Blair, the former Prime education for their children in favour of others who Minister, sent his children there. I always defended that, happen to live a little closer to the school. because he was, as I understand it, the first Prime Minister ever to send his children to a state school. To There is an alternative, which is to create a new put the record straight for anyone reading the report of voluntary-aided school that can subsequently convert this debate, before the reforms, when I was Chair of the to an academy, and the same result could be had that Education Committee, the crucial thing was not just the way. That is not an impossible route to pursue, but there number of children on free school meals, but the numbers are two problems with it. First, it is a somewhat convoluted of looked-after children and children with special approach to reach that end, inevitably carrying additional educational needs. Things have not much improved, but inefficiencies and costs. Secondly, it is not as straightforward I have to put on record, as a lay canon at Wakefield as a free school application, because voluntary-aided cathedral, that we often found that Anglican schools applications do not have the same priority as free school were worse than Catholic schools. applications. The applicants for the new voluntary-aided school at Richmond experienced a legal challenge from Damian Hinds: That is probably a road that we do the British Humanist Association, which claimed that not want to go down today. Overall, notwithstanding the Government had to look first at free school applications the poster child cases that can be found on occasion— that would have the 50% cap. That legal challenge failed, but it is inevitable that parents will feel some Kevin Brennan: You mentioned the cleaning. uncertainty about what will happen with future openings. That could affect the number of applications and the Damian Hinds: I say gently to the shadow Minister viability of such a new school. that that was represented as faith schools plural, not as one school where it was the case. The figures speak for Kevin Brennan: The hon. Gentleman mentioned that themselves. In 2010, 337 Catholic secondary schools voluntary-aided schools do not have the same priority made 54,830 offers of a place to year 7 pupils. The as new free schools. Why? number of complaints to the Office of the Schools Adjudicator about the application of the admissions Damian Hinds: The hon. Gentleman is a man of code in Catholic schools was nine. In fact, there were letters, and he will understand that I can answer the proportionally fewer complaints about Catholic schools question only in the sense of why I said that, which is than there were for schools of no denomination. because it is my understanding. It is for the Minister to There is a view that no admissions procedure or talk about how these things work in practice, and he criteria should include a religious element and that if might want to contend that point. these are high-quality, sought-after schools, they should I have some questions for the Minister. First, has the be made available equally to all, so that more people, or Department made projections of demand for Catholic at least people living closer to the school, would benefit. places at schools, the growth or otherwise in the Catholic I contend that that misses the point of what makes population and the propensity of parents of those 283WH Catholic Schools (Admissions)30 APRIL 2014 Catholic Schools (Admissions) 284WH children to seek a Catholic school? Secondly, has the When I joined, the school had just amalgamated with effect of the 50% cap on applications for faith-based another Catholic denominational school, St Joan of Arc, schools been assessed? Thirdly, would the Department which was again far from being like the Oratory. That consider a pilot of a Catholic free school without the was a school that, throughout its history, had had a 50% cap? Fourthly, is it possible to construct a new proud reputation of never having entered a pupil for a fast-track, voluntary-aided through to converter academy public exam. It was a dockland school and the only route that would effectively be a single process? qualification that pupils left with was the—slightly In conclusion, Catholic schools are a key part of the discounted now—Bootle school leaving certificate. In education landscape in this country, and have been for a fact, to get a job in that area, one needed only to long time. They are diverse—more diverse, in fact, than befriend to the local shop steward to be assured a job; the average—and that diversity includes already having one did not need to be particularly good at maths or a substantial proportion of non-Catholic children. They anything like that. The comedian, Tom O’Connor, honed also have something special about them, and that specialness his act in such a school. comes at least partly as a direct result of their religious I was latterly a governor and a parent. My children nature. went to Christ the King school in Southport, which was a community school with a tradition of caring for Robert Flello: The hon. Gentleman is being extremely pupils; it did not expel them even when they had appreciable generous with his time. On that point, it is the special problems. When I reflect on that, I must say that the nature of Catholic schools that appeals to many people system that we have got is not a planned system, but one of other religions. For example, in Stoke-on-Trent, a that has evolved. The state took responsibility for education large proportion of the Muslim community want their only after the churches had spent many decades doing children to go to the local Catholic school because of its so in the 19th century. It funded what was there, but, at Catholic nature. That might seem a little bizarre at first, that time, there was political sensitivity that we might but that is the reality. now find difficult to understand about Rome on the rates, or, in fact, any church on the rates, particularly in Damian Hinds: I agree with the hon. Gentleman my party. The solution was the funding of religious entirely. Many Catholic schools have large numbers of autonomy but only in return for a capital contribution: children of other faiths. As I came to my close, the point the Butler settlement. Congregations did indeed partly I was making was that the specialness of Catholic fund the schools and, as a result, got certain privileges. schools comes at least partly as a direct result of their That deal has now been superseded by the Blair religious nature. I suggest that that helps to promote Government and the coalition Government with a new cohesion and community spirit, rather than detract deal that I do not claim to understand perfectly: it does from it. That specialness would inevitably be eroded not have the same funding snags, but there certainly is a over time by enforcing a lower cap on admissions made protracted debate about admissions and admission policy. on the basis of faith. That policy has been developed by the coalition, but I As Cardinal Vincent Nichols—as he is now—said in do not claim to understand the rationale perfectly. 2006, when faced with a not entirely similar proposal, Perhaps the Minister can help me with that. “Catholic schools make a positive and clear contribution, and do However, insofar as the Government make the offer so in an open and proven manner. They are part of the solution. to religious bodies to promote schools, it is almost They should not be undermined.” certainly not because they want to promote a religious ethos or because they believe that, because those schools have a religious ethos, they are good per se. The promoters 2.51 pm certainly believe that, but secular Governments in a John Pugh (Southport) (LD): I thank the hon. Member secular, pluralistic society cannot usually claim that. for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) for introducing The argument appears to be that there is a demand and this significant and important debate. The backdrop to will to provide these schools in many parts of the debates on education is often the London scenario. country, that educational standards are good—I think Frankly, I fail to recognise the landscape spoken about that that is recognised widely—and that no social objectives in such debates: the fierce competition for places; sharp are being significantly impaired. elbows; tiger mums; socially-segregated intakes; and That is a point on which most Members party to this back-door selection via baptism and church attendance. debate are probably on a different side from, say, the I come from an area where half the schools are British Humanist Association, which regards serious denominational, with the bulk of them being Roman social objectives as being compromised by the sheer Catholic. Unlike the Minister, I did not go to a Roman existence of faith schools: it talks about the promotion Catholic school, but in the ’70s and early ’80s I taught of sectarianism and the like. That claim is contentious, at a Catholic comprehensive in Bootle, where the situation but that is not the issue of this debate. The issue today is was very different from London: St Kevin’s in Kirkby whether schools set up for an avowedly religious purpose was not the Oratory. function in a way that separates pupils by class or My school was run by the Salesians, a religious order ability, because that, surely, is what the Government are that originally set out to look after the poor of Milan. against and the real question is whether there is a case When I taught there, that spirit prevailed, although over for saying that. time as an order they had migrated into selective and There seem to be three bits of evidence to look at. boarding schools, as is often the way. However, some of One is the disparity that occasionally exists between a the original fervour was certainly there: the headmaster school’s social mix and the neighbourhood. It must be taught remedial maths and, even after he resigned as acknowledged that that exists. Secondly, frequently cited headmaster, continued to do so. is parents affecting religious affiliation or enthusiasm to 285WH Catholic Schools (Admissions)30 APRIL 2014 Catholic Schools (Admissions) 286WH

[John Pugh] It is important that we recognise the role of the Catholic Church in providing education. I, too, am a get their children into faith schools and that schools product of a Catholic education. The role of Catholic overtly collude in that. Thirdly, which I think is the point schools has been widely praised, with the most recent made by the former Chair of the Education Committee, example I have coming from the Deputy Prime Minister. the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman), He praised faith schools, rightly highlighting: there is some evidence that, in faith schools, there are “In my own view the crucial thing for faith schools, and I think relatively lower numbers of pupils on free school meals all the best faith schools do this, is to make sure they act as compared with other schools. engines of integration and not silos of segregation.” None of that strikes me as conclusive. As the hon. He made that comment on visiting a Catholic school in Member for East Hampshire pointed out, a disparity east London, which perhaps provides an antidote to the between neighbourhood and social mix should sometimes slightly obsessive nature of the discussion about faith be expected. In an area where Catholics are very much a schools elsewhere in London. minority population, such as Salisbury, where there is The Church has a long tradition of providing education, only the one Catholic church, there will be a difference in particular in urban areas, initially to meet the needs between the families immediately adjacent to the Catholic of migrants from Ireland, not only during the great school and those who send their children to that school, famine, but in subsequent waves of migration as well. but that would equally apply to other faith schools. A The view of the Catholic hierarchy, the bishops, when good example is in Liverpool, where one of the most they established schools in England and Wales, was that popular and successful schools is King David high this was a good way to enable migrants to integrate into school, which is a Jewish school that does not necessarily the wider community, by providing them with the reflect the wider social area in which it sits. I do not opportunities for education that would enable them to think, therefore, that that argument is conclusive. progress in different careers. Certainly in my own family, Equally, I do not think that it is conclusive to point coming from the north-east, some found such opportunities out what we probably all know: sometimes, parents to progress in particular through education. That is affect a degree of religiosity to get their children into a highly valued, and the role in integration is still played school that they might not otherwise succeed in doing. now with subsequent waves of migration, especially That argument is hard to address, because it is not with migrants from eastern Europe. Also, in many possible for schools—or churches, for that matter—to communities throughout the country, large numbers of have proper insight into the fervour or motives of the people from the Philippines can be seen at mass; they people who turn up en masse on a Sunday. We surely are in this country to work in the health service. Again, cannot ask the Government to do that either. we are helping to integrate people into the wider community. Therefore, we come to the crucial point, which is the Integration is reflected in the demographics of Catholic most difficult point for faith schools to address: a lower schools. They are ethnically and socially diverse, reflecting proportion of children receive free school meals in faith the Church itself. To use my own experience, the Catholic schools than in state schools in comparable areas. It school that I attended in Durham attracted pupils from cannot be supposed that Catholics, or those of any a wide area, not only from leafy, middle-class housing other faith, are innately prosperous and unlikely to be estates in the centre of Durham, but from the former pit on benefits. That is a dilemma for Catholic schools, but villages around Durham. It was a socially diverse school, also for the Government. If there is a remedy to that, different from the nearest school, which predominantly that would be for the faith schools to be more rigorous served leafy, middle-class housing estates. There is something in applying the faith criterion rather than any of their about the catchment area of Catholic schools, and their others, and I am not sure that the Government could coverage, which means that they have a much wider advocate that. range. None of the solutions would satisfy the critics of faith schools. I regard the Government’s policy as a Robert Flello: The hon. Gentleman’s comments put muddle to some extent, though not a pernicious or me in mind of my constituency and of my city of problematic muddle. I do not see how what we have in Stoke-on-Trent. If we compare Stoke-on-Trent with the way of faith schools at the moment can concern a Kensington, Chelsea or Westminster, they are in almost Government who are seeking to address the joint objectives completely different worlds, let alone different cities. of promoting educational achievement and ensuring Stoke-on-Trent could hardly be described as incredibly that all pupils have fair access to it. affluent, but the Catholic and indeed Church of England schools do a good job of educating people in the area. 3pm Mr Hoban: Indeed. That diversity of social class is Mr Mark Hoban (Fareham) (Con): I commend my important, although I would counsel a note of caution. hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire (Damian It is not only about what happens in Stoke-on-Trent; Hinds) for opening the debate in such a thorough way. I churches and Church schools in central London are will not speak for long, having aired the issues in an socially diverse, and we should not get away with thinking earlier debate, to which the Under-Secretary of State that Westminster and Kensington and Chelsea are for Education, my hon. Friend the Member for South predominantly or exclusively upper middle-class areas. West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), responded. I am pleased to see the Minister for Schools, my right hon. Friend the Robert Flello: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman Member for Yeovil (Mr Laws), in the Chamber, because for allowing me to come back on that point. Absolutely—I he might be able to shed some light on some of the am merely illustrating a point, in case colleagues refer discussions that his colleague and I had in the previous to the Oratory, which is not the same as Stoke-on-Trent. debate. However, I take his point entirely. 287WH Catholic Schools (Admissions)30 APRIL 2014 Catholic Schools (Admissions) 288WH

Mr Hoban: The Oratory is socially diverse, because it I hope that my right hon. Friend the Minister will allows in the children of both Prime Ministers and Deputy provide the logic, because I cannot see it the moment. If Prime Ministers these days. We should not forget that I look at other factors involved in setting up free schools, diversity. one such school might be in the middle of a middle-class The catchment area mean that Catholic schools, rather housing estate where there is a lack of capacity, and yet than serving a narrow cross-section of the population, there is no requirement to ship pupils in from other tend to serve broader communities. They are not aimed areas. Such a school could serve exclusively children exclusively at either the children who live in pit villages from that middle-class area. There is no constraint on or those who live in middle-class housing estates. that or any cap to require pupils coming from elsewhere. I am not sure what mischief the Government are seeking Free school meals have been mentioned by a number to address by such a narrow approach to one aspect of of hon. Members and the issue is a cause for concern, admissions policy. which is why the Catholic Education Service has looked at it carefully to understand some of the barriers. The My right hon. Friend the Minister might be able to service highlighted cultural aversion, immigration status shed some light on one aspect of the issue, because he and language as potential barriers to people claiming was there at the birth of the coalition. The cap flows free school meals. We need to understand that a bit from language in the coalition agreement, but I am not more: is there a factor here that we need to take more clear whose ask that was. Was it an ask of my party or action on? of his? I suspect that I know the answer, because the Liberal Democrat manifesto for which the Minister I have a concern about Government policy in the stood in 2010 pledged to prevent faith schools selecting area—I do not have many concerns about Government on the basis of their religion. I suspect that the policy policy, because I am by nature loyal. flows from that manifesto commitment. Since he and others have now had experience of Catholic schools, he Robert Flello: I paused before intervening, because I might feel that that manifesto commitment is no thought the hon. Gentleman was going to move on to longer appropriate. The Liberal Democrats might seek talk about the figures. It is worth putting on record that to change that. I will be interested to see if that is their in 2012 the difference in the number of those receiving policy. free school meals nationally and of those receiving I do not see where that commitment sits logically in them in Catholic schools was about 0.7%; in 2013, the an admissions policy. Why have the Government decided figure might have risen to about 2%. It is worth putting on that one demographic characteristic, above all others, the scale of the difference into the context. in determining admissions policy? I do not think it is logical. It is perceived to be unfair and discriminatory, Mr Hoban: Indeed. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely and is certainly preventing the establishment of new right, although that closer difference is between secondary Catholic free schools and academies that could support schools; the gap is slightly wider for primary schools. the demand for places and want to be able to offer a Nevertheless, we need to get to the bottom of the issue Catholic education but do not want to be in the position, and to understand it. as would be the case under this policy, of having to turn Since Catholic schools are so diverse and so inclusive, away Catholic parents. That is the barrier—those schools I have a problem in understanding the nature of would have to turn Catholics away under the policy. Government policy in the area. Why is the admissions I would like my right hon. Friend to explain the logic cap in place? Why has faith been singled out for such behind the policy—why it is faith that has been singled treatment? No other cap is in place and there is no cap out, and no other demographic characteristic. for ethnicity or social class; the focus appears to be entirely on faith, and yet we can see from the track record of Catholic schools that they are more representative 3.10 pm of the population and more diverse in ethnicity and social class than schools as a whole. I find it hard to Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): It is a understand why the barrier is in place. pleasure to contribute to the debate. I congratulate my When my hon. Friend the Member for South West hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier) Norfolk responded as the Minister in the previous on securing it and—more amazingly—my hon. Friend debate, she talked about the need to demonstrate broad the Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) on support in the community for such schools and the need starting the debate with such aplomb. I am slightly for access. I could understand that if it applied to all disappointed that the hon. Member for Huddersfield new free schools and academies and if there were similar (Mr Sheerman) has left the Chamber; frankly, I did not constraints in place on other aspects of diversity, but understand what he was going on about and would have there are not. The cap applies only to faith schools. In a enjoyed a debate with him. situation in which a faith school is oversubscribed, that One concern for people and particularly for Catholics oversubscription demonstrates that a school is popular who send their children to Catholic school is that when and that people want to send their children to it, so it is topics such as this are debated in Parliament, the debate more likely to have a broader range of applicants. My seems to become an assault on the values of those parents concern, if we are concerned about exclusivity and and on the fact that they choose to send their children segregationism, is with schools of a particular faith that to a school that selects by faith. They are often attacked are undersubscribed. What message of ethos or approach by various campaigning organisations for trying to be is therefore being sent to other people in the community separatist and for not wanting to be part of a wider who are not of that faith? We need to be clear about society. Frankly, such attacks are so ridiculous as to be why things are happening and why the cap is in place. untrue. 289WH Catholic Schools (Admissions)30 APRIL 2014 Catholic Schools (Admissions) 290WH

[Dr Thérèse Coffey] On whether people are excluded, I do not like the attitude that claims that Catholic schools try to cream Although it is not quite an interest, I should declare off the top, or that people are deliberately excluded that I only ever attended Catholic schools, so I have that because they are poor. That is very far from my experience narrow vision, as it were. My parents taught principally of the Church and of my time as a governor of Bishop in Catholic schools, although they taught in other types Challoner Catholic secondary school in Basingstoke. I of state school as well. have been a governor of other schools as well. It costs I am glad to see the Minister in his place today. I hope absolutely nothing to be a Catholic. If anyone has the that he is not overly influenced by Liberal Youth—a desire, ignited by a sense of mission and the faith of the Liberal Democrat group of students and young people Church, that is all that is required. It is irrelevant in our in education that has joined the British Humanist Church whether someone earns as much as another Association in a coalition against faith schools—particularly person. Long may that continue. People do not have to on the admissions code. I am pleased that he was part of worry about whether their name is on the wall on a a Government that resisted amendments trying to remove plaque, for having given something, or whether their any selection based on faith during the passage of the family has their own pew, paid for in times past. That is Academies Act 2010 in the early days of this Parliament. all irrelevant. People try to smear the whole idea of It was important that we took that step at the time. I faith schools, using data that consists of such red herrings, share the views already put forward by hon. Members rather than entering into serious debate. on the impact of the 50% cap on admissions to free A comparison can be made with membership of a schools. political party. We can go anywhere in the country, and I know that this debate is going out to the world, but we know we will find our local Conservative association, let us talk openly: was the issue that small minority Labour club or Liberal Democrat association, which we faiths would set up particular kinds of schools and the can hook up to, and where we can be with like-minded Government were concerned that that would lead to people. We may not agree with the other members on extremism of one kind or another being taught in our everything, but we can come together in the cause of a schools and being paid for by the taxpayer? If that was common interest. The same can be true of any Church the case, it was an overreaction. As we know, the setting or religion. up of a free school is subject to stringent tests, which apply to some elements of the curriculum. Although I have only just learned, from reading The Independent certain things are not banned for academies or free during the debate, that my old school, St Mary’s college, schools, those schools still have to satisfy the Department Crosby, is trying to become a free school, but the for Education and Ofsted that they are providing a archdiocese of Liverpool is blocking that on the grounds suitable education that covers a broad spectrum—albeit that more than two thirds of children who go there are that the minutiae of the curriculum are not mandated in Catholic. I agree with the archdiocese that it would be the same way as for other state-maintained schools. extraordinary to allow a school designated as Catholic to turn away pupils because they are Catholic, as a We need to set the right tone. We must allow new result of the arbitrary 50% cap. It is important to schools to develop where they are needed. My hon. remove those arbitrary measures. Distinguished former Friend the Member for East Hampshire has already pupils of the school are Cardinal Vincent Nichols and referred to the extended process in Richmond, which Roger McGough. I could add the noble Lord Birt and led to considerable opposition both politically and from myself, but that would be boasting and probably a sin. other groups that deliberately tried to stop the school being set up. It is completely false to try to compare Roman Catholic schools with Church of England schools. The Church 3.13 pm of England is the established Church in England, and Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. anyone may attend a Church of England school—such schools have been set up in almost every parish—just as 3.25 pm anyone may be buried in a Church of England churchyard. On resuming— Under our constitution, anyone may have access to the rights of the Church of England. The Government had Dr Coffey: I have been reflecting while away from the to go to extraordinary lengths with the Marriage (Same Chamber. I did not mean to give the impression that I Sex Couples) Act 2013 to legislate specifically for the thought the hon. Member for Huddersfield did not Church of England on the grounds that anyone may know what he was talking about; I just did not understand marry in a Church of England church if they have not what he was referring to. I normally enjoy debates with previously been married. The analogies are completely him, and I wish he was here so that we could have false. further discussion and dialogue. What can we do about it? I would like a change of To return to the meat of the discussion—the reason Government policy, but I would also encourage Catholic for the 50% cap—I could understand if the Government’s schools and priests, and the Catholic Education Service, intention was to prevent the establishment of pockets of to keep the pressure up. I remember that when there was extremist teaching in schools. However, there are other a proposal to change schools’ admission codes to prioritise ways to achieve that. Indeed, the current inspections by siblings over children of the Catholic faith, I and other Ofsted, the Department for Education and Birmingham governors, particularly parent and faith governors, fought city council show that there are other ways to proceed against that on the grounds that when people move to a when concerns are raised about the possibility of new area, it is not unreasonable for them to want to join manipulation. I am not convinced that the hurdle of a the school attached to their Church and where they 50% cap is necessary to stop such alleged activity. make new friendships. I would encourage Catholic schools 291WH Catholic Schools (Admissions)30 APRIL 2014 Catholic Schools (Admissions) 292WH to consider that rather than automatically going down Roman Catholic comprehensive school in Pontypool, the usual local education authority model of prioritising which, as was said earlier, drew from a wide catchment siblings. area in that part of what was first Monmouthshire and I think it was Pope St Pius X who, when asked to then Gwent. It included my home town, Cwmbran, and prioritise among a church, school or seminary, always Pontypool, Blaenavon, Abertillery, Ebbw Vale and other went for a school, recognising that passing on the faith areas of the Gwent valleys. and giving children a good education so that they go on Given my name, which is Irish, hon. Members may to become pillars of society was an important role of not be surprised that I had a Catholic education, and the Church. St Ignatius of Loyola famously said: the names on the school register were diverse. I shared “Give me the boy at seven and I will show you the man.” classes with people such as Michael Sczymanski, Endonio Many religious orders were established solely to teach Cordero, Maria Bracchi and the usual mixture of people children. It is right that we continue to keep up the with names such as Mario Evans and so on. There were concept of faith schools; it is right that dioceses tend to many Italians, Irish and Poles mingling with the Welsh, pay for schools, the land and so on; and it is right that and they were a diverse and interesting group of colleagues. we in the House continue to uphold the right of parents to send their children to the school of their choice, Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) which is often motivated by faith. (Lab): I should put on the record the fact that although I have not yet had the opportunity of contributing to 3.32 pm the debate, I am here as someone who also attended Catholic schools: St Mary’s in Hexham and Sacred Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): It is a pleasure, Heart in Newcastle. I agree with much of what has been Mr Dobbin, to participate in this debate under your said today and will be interested to hear my hon. chairmanship. I congratulate the hon. Member for East Friend’s response to some of the concerns that seem to Hampshire (Damian Hinds) on his charity in taking on arise from the complexities of the free schools policy. this debate when the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier) was unable to. As ever, he led the debate Kevin Brennan: I thank my hon. Friend. I will say a ably and elucidated the issues very well. little about that and about the Labour party’s policy on The hon. Member for East Hampshire mentioned Catholic education and faith schools more generally. that free schools—this may come up in the Minister’s Labour strongly supports faith schools in our state response—are given priority over the setting-up of a education system. I quote from a recent speech made in new voluntary-aided school. If a new Catholic school is the midlands by my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke- needed because there is demand from a sufficient number on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt), the shadow Secretary of Catholics in an area, why should free schools or any of State: other schools be given priority over voluntary-aided schools? The Minister could solve the problem here and “Across the country, we can all point to many successful, collaborative, pluralist faith schools working with children of now, and perhaps he will pick that up in his response. I particular denominations and of no faith at all.” do not see why that should not be possible. However, he also said: The hon. Member for Southport (John Pugh) told us that he taught at St Kevin’s school in Kirkby. “But we also need to be clear about the duties which a state-funded school is expected to fulfil.” John Pugh: To put the record straight, I should say In that context, he was obviously talking about some of that I used St Kevin’s in Kirkby as an example; I believe the current issues in the city of Birmingham, which the it does not exist any more. I taught at Salesian high hon. Member for Suffolk Coastal mentioned. It is right school. that there are also duties on faith schools when they are funded by taxpayers: they are to participate positively Kevin Brennan: I apologise, Mr Dobbin. I obviously in the family of schools in their area and to ensure that did not listen carefully enough to the hon. Gentleman’s they have a fair admissions policy. philosophical—as always—contribution. In view of his I recognise and commend the work by the Catholic usual intellectual contributions, perhaps he should have Education Service to look into the whole issue of taught at St Thomas Aquinas high school. admissions, in response to some of the criticisms aired in the press about admissions to Catholic schools, which John Pugh: There was indeed a St Thomas Aquinas hon. Members have highlighted. I commend that work high school down the road from Salesian high. It was because it has gone to trouble to look into why it seems known locally as “Tommy Ackers”. that Catholic schools admit a lower proportion of pupils claiming free school meals than there are in the general Kevin Brennan: I understand that school could squeeze school population. the pupils into very small spaces. The service is as baffled as some of us that that seems We also had contributions from the hon. Member for to be the case despite the fact that the areas that many Fareham (Mr Hoban), who referred to free schools, and pupils come from are deprived and despite the great the hon. Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey), who diversity of children attending Catholic schools. It has thought that some critics of Catholic admissions and made a great effort to look into the issue and I commend education were sneering. I congratulate all hon. Members it; it is important not to be complacent. Whether we are on their contributions and interventions. Catholics, Anglicans or have no faith, we should not be Like other hon. Members here, I attended a Catholic unwilling to shine a light on admissions to taxpayer-funded school and I am a Roman Catholic. I attended St David’s schools. There is a duty for those admissions to be fair. Roman Catholic school in Cwmbran and St Alban’s The Catholic Education Service has done us all a great 293WH Catholic Schools (Admissions)30 APRIL 2014 Catholic Schools (Admissions) 294WH

[Kevin Brennan] weakened and watered down by the Government. I put on the record the fact that we intend to strengthen the service by undertaking the work and by taking the issue role, should we be elected at the next general election. seriously, rather than simply trying to fend off any criticism. It has met it head on, demonstrating—as it Mr Hoban: Given that the hon. Gentleman is talking has done very well in its research—that Catholic schools about policy and going back to the Opposition’s position are extremely diverse and take pupils from all sorts of prior to this Government’s being elected, I should say backgrounds and areas. that his right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston As the Catholic Education Service pointed out in upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), when Secretary some documents—in its briefing papers on the issue of State for Education, flirted with the idea of imposing and in its cultural diversity and free schools document, quotas on faith schools of those who were not of the which I have read, explaining the low take-up of free relevant faith—I think it was about 25%. Is that a policy school meals in Catholic schools—Catholic schools are he intends to go back to? extremely diverse, often with large numbers of people from immigrant backgrounds. In a sense, that is the Kevin Brennan: No, it is not, and it will not be Labour history of Catholic schools in the United Kingdom. I policy. For the very reasons I have outlined, I do not am conscious of the fact that in my own case, my father think that is in any way necessary—but it is necessary came from the west of Ireland. He married a Welsh girl that there should be fair admissions, which is the point and was an immigrant into the UK. that I am making. All schools, when they are criticised by the schools adjudicator, should not try to evade the As I said, I commend the Catholic Education Service issue. They should take it seriously and ensure that their for its work, for taking the criticism seriously and for admissions policies are meeting the criteria. being prepared to put the work in to explain its case. That is important because if the values and ethos of a Yesterday, the former Secretary of State for Education, faith school are to mean anything, it should be that they my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside take very seriously the need to engage with, educate, and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett), issued a report for the and have a mission to the poorest in our society. That Labour Front-Bench team. I will read a short bit from should be at the heart of any faith school based on a it, to put it on the record—although it is a consultation, Christian and Catholic ethos. it is essentially an outline of the position that Labour are taking regarding admissions. We said that I shall quote from Pope Francis’s Twitter feed. He said this week—rather controversially for some, although “whilst the Office of the Schools Adjudicator…annual report noted that only 10% of Local Authorities objected to the arrangements I do not know why: of other admission authorities in their area, the OSA has separate “Inequality is the root of social evil.” evidence of much more widespread non-compliance. This review That was Pope Francis on his Twitter page—“@Pontifex”. recommends that the School Admissions Code is strengthened by removing the possibility of individual schools ‘opting-out’ of the Of course, he is absolutely right. The Pontiff’s statement locally agreed admissions framework. This would not prevent should be at the heart of the ethos of all faith schools, changes to arrangements locally or agreed experimentation by and particularly Catholic schools. I believe that it is at Admissions Authorities, but would avoid the detrimental impact the heart of those schools, but it is important to point of rogue action with one school damaging the admissions of out the limited examples of schools that are not following other schools in the locality. This recommendation does not admissions procedures that meet the test of being fair. interfere with the role of diocesan authorities, academies or Those institutions should be held to account, whatever schools as their own ‘Admissions Authority’, but reinforces the necessity of agreed and coherent arrangements within the relevant kind of school they are. However, it seems particularly local area.” important that a mission to educate the poorest in our society should be at the heart of a faith school’s ethos. It is important to put that statement on the record, because there are concerns about the watering down of the role of the schools adjudicator by the current Robert Flello: A statistic I spotted a moment ago goes Government and about the continuing disintegration to the heart of what my hon. Friend just said: 18.4% of and fragmentation of the school system as a result of pupils at Catholic primary schools live in the most the Government’s academisation and free school policy. deprived areas, compared with 13.8% nationally. There I commend the document to hon. Members, if they is a huge difference between the two. would like to read it further.

Kevin Brennan: Yes, indeed. I have looked at all the Damian Hinds: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman statistics in the report, some of which my hon. Friend for reading out the passage from the document, and I mentioned earlier, and I have commended the Catholic apologise if this is just me being hard-of-understanding, Education Service for the serious effort it has made to but could he explain what it means in practical terms? look into the issue. If people look at the statistics, they could say that the problem, if there is one, might be Kevin Brennan: Yes, I can. It means that Labour will, elsewhere, rather than necessarily in Catholic schools. I as we previously pledged, strengthen the role of the will not pursue that any further, however, because it is schools adjudicator to make sure not only that admissions not the subject of today’s debate. arrangements are fair, but that when the schools adjudicator When a system is in place to adjudicate on the makes a ruling, the changes are put in place—if necessary, fairness of schools admissions, and when a body is in by the schools adjudicator. I will explain that with a place against which those admissions should be tested, further quote from the document: schools should take them seriously and not try to evade “It will be necessary to strengthen the OSA and re-instate its them. I thought it was disappointing earlier in the power to change admission arrangements directly on upholding Parliament when the role of schools adjudicator was an objection (rather than merely issue a ruling).” 295WH Catholic Schools (Admissions)30 APRIL 2014 Catholic Schools (Admissions) 296WH

That was a source of great contention earlier in this securing the debate and my hon. Friend the Member for Parliament, when the Government removed the power East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) on taking on the of the adjudicator and effectively made it extremely mantle so well and setting out his concerns so clearly. I difficult for parents, when they have objections to admissions also join him in the comments that he made at the arrangements, to get those changed. beginning of his speech about the tragedy that has occurred in Leeds. It is on the minds of all hon. Members. Damian Hinds: To be clear, does that mean that in the Our condolences are very much with the relatives of the case of faith schools, in the Labour party’s outline teacher who died, and our thoughts are with the governors, plans, the definition of practising a religion—or an teachers and pupils at that school. element, I suppose, of practising a religion—would fall We have had an extensive debate, with good participation further towards the Office of the Schools Adjudicator from a number of hon. Members. I thank my hon. and away from diocesan authorities? Friend the Member for Southport (John Pugh) and the hon. Members for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey), for Kevin Brennan: It need not affect in any way the Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman), for Stoke-on-Trent South essence of practising a religion, but where there are (Robert Flello), for Fareham (Mr Hoban), for Isle of requirements—as in the case discussed earlier—for people, Wight (Mr Turner) and for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) for example, to undertake cleaning, the Office of the for their contributions. We have had good representation Schools Adjudicator could rule that that was an unfair from those of the Catholic faith here today. They even part of an admissions policy. seem to have got through to the Front Benches, because I also have to declare an interest, having been educated Damian Hinds: Forget bell ringing and cleaning—let only at Catholic schools—at a Catholic state primary us talk about late baptism for a moment. As a practical school and an independent Catholic secondary school. example, could the Office of the Schools Adjudicator I think that I can therefore speak with a bit of knowledge decide that children having had a late baptism should and some sympathy for the points made by hon. Members. not count, in a sense, as being Catholic in the same way as those who had infant baptisms? I want to place on record the fact that the Government recognise the important contribution that the Churches Kevin Brennan: I am sufficiently well versed in Catholic and faith schools—schools of all faiths—make to our theology to know that there is no distinction between education system. About one third of the schools in Catholics, regardless of when they were baptised. Of England are Church or faith schools and, as my hon. course that would not be applicable; it would be ludicrous Friend the Member for East Hampshire said, about if that were the case. 10% of all schools are Roman Catholic. These schools are usually popular with parents and include some of This has been a very good debate. It is extremely the highest-performing schools in the country. Catholic important that we have an opportunity to air these schools in particular generally outperform other types subjects. I want to place on the record my support and of state school. Last year, at primary level, 81% of praise for the work of Catholic schools throughout the pupils in Catholic schools achieved level 4 and above in country and to commend, as I said, the Catholic Education reading, writing and maths at key stage 2, compared Service for the serious engagement that it has had with with 75% of pupils at all state schools. At secondary the issue in relation to admissions. I ask the Minister to level, 67% of students secured five good GCSEs, including respond to the questions that hon. Members have raised English and maths, in contrast to 61% of students at all about the 50% rule with regard to free schools and to state schools in 2013. give an answer about why voluntary aided schools cannot be set up as quickly and easily as free schools A number of hon. Members have commented on the under this Government’s policy. composition by deprivation of pupils in Catholic schools compared with other schools. Obviously, that is a Mr Hoban Will the hon. Gentleman give way? complicated issue, because the fact that there are differences between schools in their disadvantaged cohorts does Kevin Brennan: I will, because there is a bit of extra not necessarily prove that there has been an attempt by time. schools to skew their intake in one way or the other. The underlying demographics of the area and the people Mr Hoban: The hon. Gentleman wants to find out who want to access the faith schools may mean that what the Government’s policy is. Will he elaborate on they are represented in different ways from the national what his policy is in connection with the Labour party’s average in terms of their deprivation characteristics. It replacement for free schools? Will those schools be is worth noting that the proportions of pupils eligible subject to the same cap as applies to free schools at the for free school meals in Roman Catholic schools are not moment? notably different from the percentages of all pupils who come from disadvantaged backgrounds. Kevin Brennan: I commend the document to the hon. Gentleman. I think that he will find all the answers John Pugh: The Minister has just profiled the difference contained therein. I shall finish my speech at that point. between Catholic schools and other kinds of school in terms of educational achievement, but to the credit of a lot of Catholic schools, they also have very good pastoral 3.51 pm arrangements. Has the Department any data showing, The Minister for Schools (Mr David Laws): It is a for example, the number of exclusions from Catholic pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dobbin. schools as opposed to other sorts of school? My instinct I join other hon. Members in congratulating my hon. is that they are rather better at catering for pupils who Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier) on have problematic histories than normal state schools. 297WH Catholic Schools (Admissions)30 APRIL 2014 Catholic Schools (Admissions) 298WH

Mr Laws: My hon. Friend raises an interesting issue. to play a full part in expanding, to help us in those areas I do not have those data to hand, but I am happy to with a shortage of school places to meet basic need. I look into the statistics that the Department has. I think that that will provide some of the opportunities suspect that we probably do or could access such statistics, that my hon. Friend has been seeking, but it is also, in and I will write to my hon. Friend to let him know many communities, a responsibility that those who are whether his hunch is supported by the data. engaged in state education should want to meet. I know that the Catholic Church feels a strong sense Our free schools programme is also helping to meet of mission to provide a high-quality education through parental demand for good local school places. Once its schools. That stretches right back to before the they are full, the 173 open free schools will provide a Reformation, but was confirmed and strengthened more total of around 82,000 additional places, with around recently, following the reintroduction of Catholic bishops 23,000 of those places at primary school level. There in 1850. Catholic schools do extend opportunities to are two open Catholic free schools. One of those cases pupils from disadvantaged backgrounds. As I said, it is was not uncontroversial with the Church, and I will say true that Catholic schools have slightly lower proportions something later in my speech about the potential of pupils on free school meals, who are eligible for pupil involvement of Catholic schools in the free schools premium funding, but at both primary and secondary programme. levels, poorer pupils in Catholic schools are doing better The free schools programme offers new opportunities than their peers nationally, resulting in smaller attainment to groups of all faiths and none to set up new schools in gaps. their community. However, faith free schools and new In 2013, 49% of pupil premium pupils in Catholic provision academies must be open and welcoming to schools secured five or more A* to C grade GCSEs, the communities around them. Where the Government including English and maths, compared with 41 % of fund new Church or faith school provision, it is right their peers nationally. That is a healthy advantage in that such new schools cater for local demand in the favour of Catholic schools. It equates to an attainment faith, but the needs of children in the broader local gap of 24 percentage points in Catholic schools. That is community must not be overlooked. We want all local lower than the national average of 27 percentage points. children to have the same opportunity to access high-quality state-funded education. The fact that it is state funded Catholic schools continue to serve high numbers of is the point. children from immigrant families—as my hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire said—both old and One of the fundamental principles of our education new, and from deprived communities. According to the system is the idea of parental choice, something that is Catholic Education Service, with which we meet and important not only to Liberals but to Conservatives engage regularly, 30% of pupils in Catholic maintained and members of other parties. Parental choice is particularly secondary schools are from ethnic minorities, compared important in the context of new Church and other faith with 24% nationally, and 17% live in the most deprived provision. Creating new Church and faith schools gives areas, compared with 12% nationally. parents who want their children to have a Church or faith education the opportunity to choose to seek a My hon. Friend asked whether we had made an place at a Church or faith school. However, the Government assessment of some of the trends in demand for Catholic and I are clear that parental choice also means that all schools recently. We have not made such an assessment. parents should be able to exercise choice and apply to Obviously, there is an issue about active participation in suitable state-funded schools. That includes parents of religion, which is declining in our society, but he is right another faith or not of the faith who may choose to to point out that we have had an influx of immigrants seek a place in their local faith school. It is vital, when from communities with strong Catholic representation we establish new academies and free schools, that we abroad. That has put pressure on Catholic school places balance those two elements of parental choice. The in some communities in the country. schools must be set up to serve the needs of the wider The Education Act 1944 brought many Church schools, community, not simply the faith need. That is why we including from the Catholic sector, into the state education pledged in the coalition agreement to ensure that all system, and we continue to benefit from that settlement new academies follow an inclusive admissions policy. today. There are nearly 2,000 Catholic schools in England, We followed that up by saying that we wanted to ensure serving more than 700,000 children—more than 400,000 that at least 50% of places in new provision free schools primary school children and about 300,000 in secondary and academies with a religious designation are not schools. The notable involvement of the Catholic sector allocated on the basis of faith but are accessible by the also extends into higher education, particularly through local community to children who are of the faith, of a the teacher training colleges, such as St Mary’s. different faith or of none. There is a lot more for us to do, however, and a lot of Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): I apologise scope for Catholic schools to play a big role in the for being delayed because of other commitments. I had education system. Many parents want to see more school two sons at the London Oratory school, and I never places, particularly in parts of the country where there knew why Tony Blair drew up the ladder after him and has been that bulge in the primary population since the stopped the school interviewing. The school made every increase in the birth rate in 2004. That is why the effort to make its intake very socially diverse, and it was. Department has allocated a total of £5 billion for local The Minister says that he went to an independent authorities between 2011 and 2015 to meet basic need. Catholic school. Why can we not simply let independent To support the expansion of schools across the country, schools do what independent schools do, and give them we have also allocated large amounts of basic-need freedom of admission? Of course they will try to create capital beyond the existing Parliament, which will help a socially diverse system. They will admit who they to fund those school expansions. I urge Catholic schools want. Why do we have to tie their hands? 299WH Catholic Schools (Admissions)30 APRIL 2014 Catholic Schools (Admissions) 300WH

Mr Laws: I am coming directly to that point. I think can have a large proportion of non-Catholic pupils and that there is a significant difference between schools funded still maintain its faith principles. The Government and I by taxpayers, who have the right to access schools that are clear that that is one of the conditions under which are, in many cases, their local schools; and schools non-Catholic or non-faith pupils enter Catholic or faith chosen by parents who seek paid-for private education. schools. I will go on to explain how the 50% works in practice, because it is not quite as some hon. Members have Damian Hinds: Does not what the Minister sets out described. The Government are taking forward the raise an obvious question? If such diversity already principle that was in place under the academy provision exists, and if large numbers—30%—of pupils at Catholic created by the previous Government, so there is consistency schools are non-Catholic, why is there a need to impose between the 50% approach that we have taken and the a cap? Such a cap would come into play in places where previous situation. The 50% cap represents a balance there is a large Catholic population over a slightly wider between providing places for parents who want their area. Children would not be turned away for being children to be educated in line with their faith, and Catholic but, inevitably, other children who happened preserving the inclusive, broad local community focus to live a little closer to the school would be preferred in of the school so that local parents, who may not be of their place. that faith, can exercise their choice over state-funded schooling. Mr Laws: There are two separate points. I sought to make the first point by addressing the question that my We have no reason to believe that the balance is not hon. Friend raised in his speech about whether it was working effectively. Proposer groups, representing many possible to have a Catholic ethos and education in a different faiths and none, still come forward and are school in which a large number of pupils were not keen to set up free schools. Those schools are proving Catholic. If he agrees that it is possible to retain that popular with parents. The 50% limit on faith admissions ethos, I welcome that. I come back to the issue of there does not mean that Catholic children must be turned being two competing rights in a state-funded school away once the school has reached the 50% threshold. A system: people’s right to choose to have their children faith free school may end up recruiting more than 50% educated in the way that they wish, and the right of of pupils who share its faith as long as no more than taxpayers who live near state-funded schools to have half the places were allocated on the basis of faith. some ability to access them despite the over-representation Other Catholic children have the same opportunity as of people from the faith that the system allows. all other applicants to access the remaining 50% of places, which are allocated according to the other over- Kevin Brennan: Will the Minister clarify the Government’s subscription criteria. position on new voluntary-aided schools? We do not believe that a 50% limit on faith admissions is incompatible with the provision of high-quality faith Mr Laws: I am coming to that, and I hope I will be education. Church and other faith free schools have the able to get to it before the end of my speech. As a freedom to deliver religious education and collective Catholic—this is a personal comment and not one that worship according to the tenets of their faith and to I make on behalf of the Government—I think that our appoint teaching staff and leaders by reference to faith. faith is at its best when it reaches out to people beyond Not all Church and faith schools, even those with a the faith, and I urge the Catholic faith in this country faith priority in their admission arrangements, admit not to think of itself as providing schools to serve only only children of their faith. If a faith school is under- people of the Catholic faith. Surely, in a society where subscribed, the school must admit all children who all religions seem to be struggling to keep people engaged, apply, regardless of their faith. faiths such as Catholicism should welcome the fact that many parents want their children to attend those schools Many Church and faith schools choose not to adopt even if they are not of the faith. I acknowledge that that faith-based admission arrangements. The Catholic is an issue for Catholic schools and the Catholic faith; it Education Service’s data show that the average proportion is not for me, but I think it should be considered. of Catholic pupils in its maintained schools is 70%, and Although I recognise that the Catholic sector has its independent schools have an even larger proportion aspirations whereby it continues to have objections to of non-Catholic pupils. I have been looking during the our policy on admissions in faith free schools, I am keen debate at the percentage of Catholic pupils in Catholic that that the Catholic Education Service should continue schools, which ranges from 72.8% of Catholic pupils in to engage with us in discussing the matter. We remain Catholic primary schools to 42.6% of Catholic pupils in committed to continuing our engagement with the Catholic Catholic sixth-form colleges. In the independent sector, Education Service on this issue, and we would welcome only 36.4% of pupils in Catholic schools are Catholic. innovative ideas from it. For example, a free school that, Only 5% of maintained Catholic schools and colleges— in response to local demand, met the anticipated faith 100 institutions—have entirely Catholic pupils, and 20% demand but had a capacity greater than that demand of Catholic schools, or 401, are already operating with and thus did not exceed the 50% limit would still be half of their student body composed of non-Catholic eligible for funding. Such a school would help to provide children. additional school places where they are most needed I do not believe, however—I am sure that my hon. and extend school choice to parents who might not be Friend the Member for East Hampshire agrees—that Catholic but nevertheless want a Church education for the 95% of schools that do not have a fully Catholic their children. I must be clear, however, that we currently population are not providing a high-quality Catholic have no plans to change the 50% limit. Given the fact education for all their pupils. Indeed, the attainment that we have a very small number of Catholic free levels of Catholic schools bear that out. Many of us schools, I hope that Catholic schools will consider who have been in Catholic schools know that a school engaging further in that programme. 301WH Catholic Schools (Admissions) 30 APRIL 2014 302WH

[Mr Laws] Prison Education and Welfare Services In understanding the importance of the 50% limit in ensuring that new provision Church and faith schools 4.12 pm are also accessible to their local community, it is vital Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): It is a pleasure that we recognise the wider pressures on the schools to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dobbin. I am system. Making sure there are enough high-quality pleased to have secured this debate on education and school places for the growing population will remain welfare services in prisons—an important subject that one of the Government’s top priorities. The Department affects the lives of thousands of prisoners throughout has allocated a total of £5 billion of basic-need money the United Kingdom, where 85,000 people are in prison. to local authorities between 2011-12 and 2014-15. That According to the Government’s figures, 81,000 are men is considerably in excess of the amount for the previous and just under 4,000 are women. More than half of the Parliament. Local authorities and other schools in those UK’s prison population are in their 20s and 30s and areas have already created about a third of a million therefore likely to have many years of freedom ahead of additional school places, and must continue to create them upon their release. such places in future. In the first instance, prison must be seen as a punishment: The Department provides funding to enable local a restriction of an individual’s freedom in response to authorities to meet the demand for new places based on their behaviour. However, it should not be a place that authorities’ forecasts of pupil numbers in their areas. permanently reduces their life chances upon release. The Government welcome Church and faith schools as Offenders who are ex-offenders should be regarded as part of the diverse and autonomous pattern of education ex-offenders; they should be given the chance to move provision in this country. We therefore provide for faith on with their lives and given a second chance. However, designation of both maintained schools and academies. for some offenders, whole-of-life prison terms are more A voluntary-aided school can seek to convert to academy than appropriate; others, such as paedophiles and those status, just like any other maintained school, but a who cannot be reformed, in my view deserve longer voluntary-aided school converting to academy status sentences than is currently the case. I hope that the would convert under existing arrangements— Government will look at that in detail. I also think that tariffs for breaching the Official Secrets Act and acts of Jim Dobbin (in the Chair): Order. treason are far too lenient and might not deter those who would seek to undermine our nation’s national security. For some offenders, however, prison can be an opportunity for them to change and turn their lives around—there is an opportunity, through education and welfare services, statutory or otherwise, to rehabilitate prisoners and provide them with the knowledge and skills to help them to lead successful and productive lives in their communities upon release. Through education courses, prisoners will be better equipped to find and sustain employment on release, becoming an asset to local communities and the wider economy. Education is still very much an escalator to opportunity and should be a key focus of the Government’s prisons policy. It has been estimated that up to 80% of prisoners have a reading age lower than that of an 11-year-old. That does not bode well for their employment on release or their successful reintegration into local communities. A large proportion of prison education services are provided by the Government through the offenders’ learning and skills service, as well as through a number of Government-contracted providers. Although welcome, such statutory services tend to focus only on key basic skills such as maths and literacy. Those are of course important, but the training does not usually go beyond level 2, which is equivalent to a GCSE. The courses are highly valuable for prisoners, particularly those from poor educational backgrounds, and the Government deserve credit for increasing prisoner participation in them. One of the key providers of such courses is A4E, which does some excellent work in helping former prisoners into employment, often bringing potential employers into prisons and giving offenders the chance to demonstrate their skills in a work-like environment. However, there are still areas in which the Government can improve the provision of educational services and make further 303WH Prison Education and Welfare 30 APRIL 2014 Prison Education and Welfare 304WH Services Services progress. In particular, the focus on processes and outputs prisons and help reduce reoffending rates on release. alone, where pressure is put on providers to get prisoners Once again, the role of charities makes an invaluable on to and through courses, risks missing those prisoners impact on the lives and welfare of prisoners. In particular, who require more focused, specialised, bespoke and, in the Prison Fellowship does excellent work in support of some cases, higher-level teaching experience than the prisoners to navigate their way through a host of different current system provides. programmes and initiatives. It also supports those who It is also difficult for education providers to draw have little or no social or family network to support down funding for courses beyond level 2, which results them in or out of prison. Through its excellent victim in a distinct lack of progress for prisoners who come awareness programme, the Prison Fellowship teaches from a stronger educational background. Furthermore, the principles of restorative justice, by giving prisoners the comparative lack of more engaged learning, including the opportunity to explore the effects of crimes on more practical and vocational courses—such as gym victims, offenders and the community, as well as to take courses, as well as workshops and other creative activities— responsibility for their own actions and crimes. risks alienating individuals who may not be academically On restorative justice, the Government should look minded but nevertheless have other practical skills that again at the moneys provided to the police and crime could equip them for the outside workplace. That is why commissioners for that type of justice work. I do not the role of charities is important, because it often falls think that the majority of PCCs are best placed to to charities and other external organisations to provide spend those justice funds. My view is that organisations educational services in areas not currently covered by such as the Prison Fellowship and others should be able the offenders’ learning and skills service, or OLASS. to apply for direct funding from the Ministry of Justice. I hope that the Minister will consider that again and Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): I congratulate my will respond when winding up. hon. Friend on securing this debate, and make my usual Other charities, such as Time for Families, also do declaration about my publication on prison reform two good work, including running relationship courses in years ago. Does he agree that we should be looking into prisons. The staff and volunteers, like those of so many the idea of an academy prison, whereby the whole other charities, do so much for so many, and I pay prison is run by a charity or altruistic institution? The tribute to all those who do such work. I also pay tribute current model is either state or private, whereas in to all prison officer staff and volunteers who work schools we have transformed education by the provision within the prison estate, most with professionalism and of academies that are outwith the state or private commitment, in both the public and private sectors institutions. Surely, the next step for public sector reform and—who knows in the future?—in some third-way of prisons should be the charity not just providing the academy; I hope so. education within a small segment of a prison, but taking over the whole prison itself. The prison chaplaincy is the backbone of the prison welfare and pastoral services provided, with that care Mark Pritchard: My hon. Friend makes an important playing a vital role in the rehabilitation process, and point. We must have a mixed economy for education helping prisoners with many of the challenges that they provision in the prison estate. He makes an innovative face. point on the potential for an academy—either an individual Mr Dobbin, with your permission, I would like to be academy within an individual prison or an academy with reminded when there is one minute left for me to speak. a capital A across the whole of the prison estate. He is That would be very helpful. of course well versed and experienced on this subject, For those prisoners of faith, the prison chaplaincy having written a book entitled “Doing Time: Prisons in provides solace, confidentiality and somewhere for them the 21st Century”, which looked at the subject of literacy, to go to practise their religion. I pay tribute to all those numeracy and education. I applaud his continued who offer spiritual and pastoral counselling to prisoners commitment to improved education in the prison estate. and staff. None the less, some recent concerns have been I was talking about charities, and the Prisoners Education expressed about accessibility to chaplaincy services. In a Trust, for example, funds around 2,000 people each recent submission to the Select Committee on Justice, year to study a wide range of courses in subjects and at the Caritas Social Action Network in collaboration levels not provided by statutory education services, with the Catholic Bishops Conference of England and including Open university degrees and diplomas as well Wales raised a number of concerns about access to as more practical and vocational courses. The trust does religious services for prisoners. Some of that has resulted an excellent job in helping thousands of prisoners across from changes in the organisation of the prison day, with the estate, and I pay tribute to its work. Over the past the bishops citing the shortening of the prison day. I am quarter of a century, it has lead many prisoners back interested to hear the Minister’s response to that claim, into successful lives in the community. The Ministry of given the vital role, which I know he and the Government Justice’s research confirms that prisoners who study are recognise, of the work chaplains do in the prison service. less likely to reoffend, so everyone wins. Other charities I highlight the excellent Listener scheme established involved in such work include the Shannon Trust, the within prisons by the Samaritans. I recently tabled a No Way Trust and the Henry Smith Charity—I do not written parliamentary question on the subject. The believe that the latter relates to our colleague, the hon. scheme helps to support hundreds of prisoners and can Member for Crawley (Henry Smith), but I know that he help reduce self-harming. Prisoners are trained by the is interested in this subject. They all deserve credit for Samaritans and other prisoners come to that prisoner supplementing other education services within the estate. for help, support and guidance. I hope that the Minister Welfare services available to prisoners, whether will ensure that all prison governors and staff are made counselling, faith-based or pastoral services, such as the fully aware of the Government’s support for this scheme, work of the prison chaplaincy, all make for better since, again, everyone benefits. 305WH Prison Education and Welfare 30 APRIL 2014 Prison Education and Welfare 306WH Services Services [Mark Pritchard] for a fresh start and a new life on their release, going on to lead productive and fruitful lives for themselves and I turn briefly to maternity services and women in for wider society. prison. My view is that women with very young children should be jailed only for serious offences. I think that 4.28 pm pregnant prisoners as far as practicable should always give birth in NHS hospitals and stay in hospital for as The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice long as possible wherever needed. The Government (Jeremy Wright): It is a pleasure to serve under your need to publish annual official figures on the number of chairmanship. Mr Dobbin. I start by congratulating my pregnant women in prisons and the number of mothers hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) and babies passing through the prisons estate each year. on securing the debate and on the way he has set out his Those figures are currently not published. Bespoke case. I agree with a great deal of what he has said. He is policies cannot surely be made without sufficient detail entirely right that the first thing the public expect is that and empirical data and evidence. sentencing is carried out in a robust and proper manner There are estimates that more than 600 women receive and that, where tough sentences are appropriate, they antenatal care in prisons each year, with more than are handed out. 100 women actually giving birth during their sentences. My hon. Friend will know that the Government are Can the Minister confirm that the female prison population acting on that expectation in relation to legislation is likely to rise? If he thinks that is the case on projections, currently passing through Parliament. We will, for example, will the 80 mother-and-baby places in units in England— no longer have automatic release for terrorists and and other places—spread between seven establishments those who have committed child rape offences. I think be sufficient to meet future demand? Does he think that that he and many others will welcome that. such units are the right environment for babies to My hon. Friend is right that prison should not simply be born? be a place of punishment, but also an opportunity to I am aware that in 2000 the prison service and the turn lives around. He will recognise the Government’s NHS entered into a formal contract to provide prisoners clear focus on reducing reoffending. A large part of that with the same standard of midwifery care as that provided relies on rehabilitation that takes places during custody elsewhere in the community, and rightly so. Is the as well as that which may take place later. Minister content that that contract is providing the My hon. Friend talked about education and skills, health care that mothers and babies require? and again he is right that that is hugely important. We Can the Minister confirm on the record that, though recognise the important role that skills and employment the practice was outlawed since 1996, mothers are no can have in reducing reoffending. We are committed to longer in every case shackled while in labour or giving creating a more effective system for helping prisoners birth? The Government need to do more to ensure that develop the skills required for sustainable employment. standards of antenatal care are far more uniform across I am especially concerned, as I know that my hon. the prison estate—high levels of care, not a lowering of Friend will be, about the number of prisoners who have standards of care. poor literacy and numeracy. We know that such skills are essential for life and work and without them any Jim Dobbin (in the Chair): Order. You have one individual is disadvantaged in the job market. For that minute left for your speech. reason, from August this year we are introducing mandatory assessment of learning needs for all prisoners on reception. Mark Pritchard: I am grateful, Mr Dobbin. I would This will help to ensure that those with the greatest need like to thank the Maternity Alliance for the work that it do not slip through the net. Of course, education is not does in relation to mothers and babies in prison. mandatory for anyone over 18. However, we hope that The Government are doing some excellent things to our revised incentives and earned privileges scheme and ensure that education and welfare services are available more innovative and engaging approaches will secure in prisons, and that work is admirably supplemented by the involvement of those adult prisoners. the excellent work of numerous charities, some of which My hon. Friend may know that we have piloted the I have referred to today. However, I hope that more use of the Army’s approach to intensive maths and progress can be made, particularly in relation to uniformity English and have found that to be effective with prisoners. of access and standards. We intend to roll this out further, particularly for those Changes of policy or process within individual prisons serving short sentences. or across the whole prison estate should not lead to a lowest-common-denominator approach. Those who occupy Mark Pritchard: Just for the record and for clarity—for prisons are individuals who have done wrong to society. my slowness—first, is the Minister saying that that will However, that does not mean that they should be written be offered to all new prisoners on reception? Secondly, off. Yes, prison should be a place of punishment, but how will that assessment be made? also a place of rehabilitation, a weaning off dependency and a place of restorative justice for those who have Jeremy Wright: The assessment should apply to all open minds and hearts. The prison service should be a prisoners, so that we understand what someone’s learning helping hand in that process, not a deterrent or an needs might be. As I have said, it is difficult to compel unwitting roadblock. The prison service works best in a anyone above the age of 18 to engage in any education collaborative process. courses, but it is important that we understand what a Most prisoners will return to the outside world and it prisoner’s learning needs are when they arrive in custody. is in large part the responsibility of this Government to If someone has significant learning needs, it is right to ensure that policies are advanced that help equip prisoners give them every incentive and encouragement to address 307WH Prison Education and Welfare 30 APRIL 2014 Prison Education and Welfare 308WH Services Services those needs, so that they can start to make their way in Friend will recognise that neither this Government nor the world in a legitimate way, just as my hon. Friend the previous one have excluded the possibility of prisons described, when they leave custody. being run by people other than the state. It is important My hon. Friend mentioned a number of charities that we look at every potential provider of prisons, to that have an important part to play in this regard. He is ensure that they can provide for us not just a secure right about that. He mentioned the Prisoners Education environment, but one in which rehabilitation can be Trust, and I support what he said about it. He is right to achieved. I recognise his enthusiasm for this cause. We mention the Shannon Trust in particular, given that we think that it is more important that what is provided is are discussing literacy among prisoners; it does good good, rather than who provides it. work, as he knows, through the “Toe by Toe”programme, Let me move on to restorative justice, which my hon. which enables prisoners to learn to read outside a Friend the Member for The Wrekin mentioned. I am an classroom setting. enthusiast for restorative justice, which has a significant My hon. Friend is also right to say that we have to part to play, not just outside custody but inside, too. He focus on vocational training. Our offender learning will know that restorative justice principles are sometimes strategy concentrates on preparation for employment, used inside our prisons. The Government have, in this as we know that having a job when leaving prison can sense, put their money where their mouth is and made reduce reoffending. Vocational training, based on labour some £30 million available over the next few years for market intelligence, particularly in the year before release, restorative justice to be carried out. He is right to say will remain a priority especially in the new resettlement that, at the moment, the bulk of that money goes to prisons. More broadly, I want to ensure that a core of police and crime commissioners. It is right that people employers is in place to offer employment opportunities who are in a position to determine local need have that to offenders and ex-offenders, in particular through the money available to them, but that is not the only resource Employers Forum for Reducing Re-offending, chaired available for restorative justice. I will consider carefully by James Timpson. what my hon. Friend has said, to see whether there are I am fully aware, as my hon. Friend is, that many other ways in which we can achieve the objective that he prisoners have experienced a lifetime of social deprivation has set out. and face more significant barriers to obtaining employment I am, like my hon. Friend, an enthusiast for chaplaincy, than the average jobseeker and that prison leavers spend which does a good job. He knows that chaplaincy teams longer on benefits than other new jobseeker’s allowance in prisons are available to provide pastoral support to claimants. For this reason, from March 2012 we introduced prisoners of all faiths and to those of no faith. All a change so that all prison leavers are immediately prisons have multi-faith chaplaincy teams to both provide mandated to the work programme if they make a claim this support and to enable religious provision. All new for jobseeker’s allowance in prison or within 13 weeks prisoners are seen by a chaplain, from whom they hear of release. This is intended to ensure that newly released about the support and services provided. In addition, offenders have the support that they need to find and prisoners who are segregated or in health care—both stay in work. particularly stressful times—are visited daily by a chaplain Of course, work after prison is an important factor, to offer support. Chaplains can also be alongside prisoners but work in prison is important, too. Work in prison at times of crisis in their lives, such as bereavement, can prepare prisoners to take up opportunities outside. when they may be particularly vulnerable. Our chaplaincy Too many prisoners are able to pass their time in prison teams also deliver a wide range of group activities and in a state of enforced idleness, with little or no constructive classes that are not just faith-based but look at issues activity. We want prisons in England and Wales to such as loss, victim empathy and developing life skills. become places of meaningful work and training, where Chaplaincy teams are well placed to both provide this many more prisoners work for up to 40 hours a week, support and to challenge behaviours and to provide and possibly beyond. We have had considerable success positive role models. in increasing the number of hours worked in our prisons My hon. Friend mentioned the care that may be on since 2010. offer from other prisoners, aside from the care offered We want more prisoners to undertake challenging work, by the authorities. Again, he is right about this. Often, within the discipline of regular working hours, which we find that prisoners respond and relate more easily to will also help them develop the skills that they need their peers. A good example of this is the Samaritan-trained to gain employment, to reform and, ultimately, to turn Listener scheme, which he mentioned, whereby carefully away from crime. selected and trained prisoners act as listeners inside the prison. They listen in confidence to their fellow prisoners Guy Opperman: I visited HMP Northumberland with who may be in crisis, feel suicidal or need a sympathetic the Secretary of State for Justice this month and spoke ear. The listeners assist in preventing suicide, reducing to the highly successful providers of education in prison self-harm and generally help alleviate the feelings of there. Does the Minister accept the potential for alternative those in distress. In addition, selected prisoners act as providers for an individual prison? Does he agree with what we call insiders, helping with the induction process his predecessor, the hon. Member for Reigate (Crispin by telling new prisoners all they need to know about life Blunt), who indicated on 13 March 2014, as reported in in prison, what is available and where to find help. Hansard, that such organisations would be genuinely welcomed by the Ministry of Justice, provided that they My hon. Friend asked about maternity and childbirth satisfy the financial and safeguarding criteria? provision. He knows that, under the Health and Social Care Act 2012, since 1 April 2013, NHS England has a Jeremy Wright: It is not so much who provides the legal duty to commission health services or facilities for prison accommodation that matters, but what they all people who are detained in prison. Women prisoners provide and the support that goes with it. My hon. and their babies should have access to the same range 309WH Prison Education and Welfare 30 APRIL 2014 310WH Services [Jeremy Wright] Garment Industry (Working Conditions) and quality of health services and treatments from the NHS as everyone else. This will include antenatal and 4.40 pm post-natal care through attendance at hospital or in-reach Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab): midwifery. The six mother-and-baby units in England It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, and Wales provide an overall capacity of 64 places for Mr Dobbin. I am grateful for the opportunity to debate mothers. In fact, there is a total of 70 places for babies, matters related to the Rana Plaza disaster in Bangladesh, to allow for twins. the anniversary of which was a few days ago. I am My hon. Friend asked about population projections. grateful to be joined by colleagues who have a long-standing Of course, we keep this matter under review, but we will interest in Bangladesh and who have spoken a great always look to ensure that we have sufficient capacity to deal about the Rana Plaza disaster and what it means accommodate those who we believe will find themselves for the ready-made garment industry in Bangladesh. in the custodial system. He is right to say that the Our time is limited, so I am grateful for their support. I custodial system is not the best place for mothers and know they will also want to make relatively short babies to be. He will know that courts will always think contributions in the limited time available. twice before incarcerating someone who is in that condition, I was privileged to visit Bangladesh last September but sometimes that is necessary. The decision to provide with fellow members of the all-party group on Bangladesh. a place in a mother-and-baby unit is taken by a board We planned the visit specifically to feed into our subsequent consisting of representatives from the local authority, report, “After Rana Plaza,” which focused on the ready- the prison, other interested parties and an independent made garment industry in Bangladesh. We made chair. The overall age limit for most of these units is recommendations on what we think is needed to get the 18 months, although that may vary depending on the ready-made garment sector in Bangladesh into the right circumstances. He will appreciate that, when considering place so that we can ensure that we do not see another applications for admission to mother-and-baby units, Rana Plaza. the best interests of the child are paramount. The disaster at Rana Plaza claimed some 1,100 lives, My hon. Friend asked me one other question, which with 2,500 people injured, and it came only a few was on handcuffing. Handcuffing is profoundly undesirable, months after the Tazreen Fashions fire in Dhaka, which and the general policy is not to handcuff women, but as killed 112 workers. There is a pattern of industrial he will understand, an individual risk assessment has to incidents that have claimed lives in one of the world’s be made in each and every case. poorest countries, and it is a stark reminder to the rest I hope that my response assists my hon. Friend, and of the world that our cheap, fast fashion has a human I welcome his interest in what happens inside prisons. I cost that is often hidden. Those two disasters in Bangladesh am also grateful for the intervention of my hon. Friend have particularly helped to bring home the human cost the Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman) who, as my to consumers in Britain, Europe and elsewhere in a way hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin has said, takes that had not necessarily happened previously. a consistent interest in such matters. There is a good I will address the recommendations made in the deal more to do, but as my hon. Friend the Member for all-party group’s report, but I will first talk about our The Wrekin and I entirely agree, prisons must be both visit to Bangladesh. I am pleased that my hon. Friend places of punishment and places where we seek to turn the Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara around the lives of those who would otherwise go on to Ali) is here, because we went out to Bangladesh together, reoffend. and she was with me when I visited one factory in particular. The Department for International Development, which was working with the all-party group during our visit, encouraged us to go to the factory. The incongruous image that comes to mind when I think of that time is of seven Bangladeshi women in shalwar kameez sewing zips on to bright pink skinny jeans that were destined for sale in Russia. My hon. Friend and I were in the factory for our work on the all-party group’s report. We had been sent there by DFID because it was one of the better factories and had much better standards on health and safety, fire risk and work force engagement than many other factories in Dhaka. DFID was rightly keen for us to see what a good factory in Dhaka’s ready-made garment industry looks like. When I went into the factory, even though it was one of the better factories—I took that point on board—the first thing that hit home was the unbearable heat. The factory was not hot just because of the lovely weather in Bangladesh, because I am not a wimp when it comes to general heat and nice weather. Going into that factory, the first thing I felt was a blast of heat that was unlike anything I had ever experienced. When I stood near those women who were sewing zips on to the pink skinny jeans, it was all I could do to 311WH Garment Industry (Working 30 APRIL 2014 Garment Industry (Working 312WH Conditions) Conditions) maintain for 10 minutes a reasonable conversation in Jim Dobbin (in the Chair): Order. Interventions are broken Urdu that the women could just about understand meant to be short. before I thought, “I have to wrap this up and get over to the other side of the factory, because I cannot physically Shabana Mahmood: I thank my hon. Friend for that stand here for very much longer.” intervention, which highlighted a number of important I also remember clearly that the women were supposed issues. I will come to building standards a little later. to be wearing face masks because there was a lot of As I was saying, I did not feel that even what I cloth fibre and dust in the air, which is damaging for accepted was a good factory represented a safe environment people to breathe in every day at work, but because it in which I would happily rock up for work, do my shift was so hot they had to take off their masks. Even in a and go home without thinking that I had taken my life good factory that was doing its bit to meet some minimum in my hands. That is a stark reminder, if one were standards, particularly after the Rana Plaza disaster, needed, that even with minimum standards in place—there there were still issues that I, as a British woman, felt to has been a lot of good work on getting standards in be serious as I was standing in the factory. place for the sector in Bangladesh post-Rana Plaza—there On the side of the building, again in relation to health is a long way to go, first to meet those standards in the and safety standards, there was what we were told was first place and then to get the kind of working conditions decent fire escape provision. There was a door at the in that part of the world that workers in many other side of the building that led out to a stairwell that went parts of the world, particularly in this country, enjoy. down into the outside courtyard. Again, unlike what sometimes happens in other factories, access was clear Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): Will my hon. and there were no boxes of garments in front of the Friend give way? door. The access was not blocked, unlike pictures we had seen of other, less good factories. When I saw that stairwell, which was the fire exit for hundreds of workers Shabana Mahmood: I will, but I ask my hon. Friend in the factory, I thought to myself, “God help me if I to be brief. ever find myself working in a factory like this and having to run out into that stairwell, which feels pretty Alison McGovern: I apologise to all Members; I will rickety to me.” That might be because of the British not be able to stay until the end of the debate. Briefly, experience and the good safety standards that we expect does my hon. Friend agree that the standards issues she for ourselves, but it was a stark reminder that even what describes make it all the more important that we support passes for good standards, and what outside organisations and back up the work of the International Labour such as DFID and others say are good standards for Organisation, which does this work around the world Bangladeshi workers, are things that I do not think on all our behalves? many British workers would ever accept for themselves—I certainly would not accept them. Shabana Mahmood: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The ILO plays a very important role and I am Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab) rose— pleased that other organisations work closely with it, including DFID. I hope that that co-operation continues. Jim Dobbin (in the Chair): Before the hon. Lady intervenes, I clarify that interventions are acceptable Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): with the agreement of the hon. Member for Birmingham, I spoke on this issue on 25 April, two days after the Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) but speeches are not disaster, in the Council of Europe; what happened was acceptable unless the hon. Lady and the Minister have in breach of article 4 of the European convention on agreed. The Chairman should also be informed. human rights. On standards, my hon. Friend visited a factory where she was shown that everything was fabulous, Rushanara Ali: Thank you, Mr Dobbin. I will make but that was because she was visiting. The reality is that an intervention. in October 2013, 112 women died at the Tazreen factory My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood in Dhaka because they were locked in the factory when (Shabana Mahmood) mentioned our visit to Bangladesh, it caught fire. On 11 September 2012, 289 workers died and it is clear from that visit that, across the board in at the Ali Enterprises factory in Karachi because they the garment industry, people face a threat to their life were locked in the factory when it caught fire. How every day in such places. That was highlighted by the much confidence can we have that we are not just being most appalling tragedy last year in the Rana Plaza shown the best on the day? All the reports say that such accident. factories do not represent the standards when interested My question is both to my hon. Friend and to the parties, such as my hon. Friends, are not there observing. Minister. I seek progress and pressure from our Government to ensure that the issues with labour standards and Shabana Mahmood: That is an important point. When building regulations that we found in our report are we visited that factory in Dhaka, I had the benefit of addressed quickly so that we see no further tragedies. having my hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green Does my hon. Friend agree that the Government should and Bow with me. She was able to engage with the put more pressure on companies that have not paid workers in Bengali and Sylheti. She had a conversation compensation? Only $15 million of the $40 million has with them that probed whether what we were seeing was been paid. Will the Minister support the “No more for the benefit of visitors, rather than what happens on fashion victims” campaign led by Labour Behind the a day-to-day basis. I left confident that what we had Label and Katharine Hamnett, which seeks to apply seen was a true picture. DFID put in place arrangements such pressure? to work with grass-roots organisations to ensure that 313WH Garment Industry (Working 30 APRIL 2014 Garment Industry (Working 314WH Conditions) Conditions) [Shabana Mahmood] There are so many assessments of building safety covering such a wide geographic area; I remain worried those standards are not just what someone sees when that the Bangladeshi Government will not end up with they visit on any given day, but what happens every day the data they need to take remedial action in situations for those workers. where remedial action has not been enforced because the big clothing companies have ceased their relationship Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Will the hon. Lady and walked away. give way? Issues remain on workers’ rights and the organisation of the labour force in Bangladesh. Trade unions in this Shabana Mahmood: I am afraid that I will not, because country have been active in trying to support Bangladeshi I have so little time left. workers to be in a position where they can organise. Post-Rana Plaza, there has been a lot of action to try There is a lot of discussion on labour law amendments to get better safety standards in Bangladesh. A number in Bangladesh—whether they go far enough and whether of companies have signed up to the accord on fire and workers will soon be able to organise and to negotiate building safety there. It covers just less than 2,000 with company owners on wages and their safety at factories, which still leaves many thousands of factories work. not within the scope of the accord. That is a concern, Regardless of the politics of the trade union movement although the fact that some 1,800 or so factories are in this House, we are privileged to have such things in covered by the accord is a good thing. this country. I would very much like to see Bangladeshi When we were in the country with the all-party workers and poorer workers across the world in a group, we had a number of conversations with Rajdhani similarly strong position when it comes to negotiating Unnayan Kartripakkha, the Bangladesh university of rights at work. I would be very grateful if the Minister engineering and technology and other stakeholders in said a little more about what DFID is doing to support Bangladesh on regulations and building codes and their labour law and rights in Bangladesh. There has been a enforcement. Their point was not that the building lot of discussion about whether to take the United regulations do not exist, because there is a strong and States route, which is to deny trade privileges, or whether relatively robust system of regulations and codes; their to try to work with the Bangladeshi Government in a point was more on the level of enforcement and capacity— slightly different way, which is what the UK and the having enough trained surveyors, architects and engineers European Union have decided to do. to implement the regulations. There remains, as my hon. Friend the Member for I am the daughter of a civil engineer. My dad is an Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali) said, a big expert in water and waste management systems, so I issue on the Rana Plaza compensation fund, which does have grown up looking at maps, regulations and things not have half the money that it aimed to have. It was like that. I was struck that the experiences of those said to need £24 million, but only £9 million has been experts was not that different from those of my dad as a raised. I find that disgraceful and shocking. For the big civil engineer in Britain. They had similar relationships companies that are involved in this industry, which is with colleagues and brought similar professionalism to worth billions and billions of dollars, £24 million is bear. The problem is that there are not enough of them small change. It is a tiny sum. in Bangladesh and they are not organised into professional I remain shocked and deeply upset that that fund has bodies, such as those we are privileged to have in this still not got the money that it needs. I pay tribute to the country with—for example, the Institution of Civil companies that have paid into it. Primark, which has a Engineers and the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors. base in my constituency, wrote to me recently to inform That is the missing link, almost, in getting Bangladesh that it has paid in and taken the action that it feels that to a place where the regulations are properly implemented it can, but we need to continue to press other British and enforced when buildings are being put up. companies to do the right thing and ensure that that I am pleased that DFID has decided to focus its fund has all the money that it needs. energies on fire and safety regulations, capacity and so On compensation for workers, in this country we are on. That is an important step. I am a big believer that privileged that we have a body of personal injury law our activities through DFID in other parts of the world that makes it easy for lawyers to argue on behalf of should not be seen as just giving money. We should help victims for compensation that truly and accurately reflects countries to build up the infrastructure and systems lifelong loss of earnings or amenity. We have formulae that they need to deal with these issues themselves. in our legal system that enable us to provide adequate One thing that remains a concern is that, although compensation to victims of injury at work and elsewhere, many organisations are carrying out inspections and but I am worried that the robustness that we expect in reports into building safety in Bangladesh are being Britain or elsewhere in Europe or in the States through prepared, I am not clear or confident that the information such legal formulae for deciding rates of compensation, captured will go quickly to a place where it can be especially in the cases of injuries that prevent someone implemented. For example, Tesco wrote to me in advance from being able to work fully for the rest of their life, of this debate to say that it had ceased to work with one will not necessarily translate into what will be received of its suppliers in Bangladesh because it does not believe by the victims of the Rana Plaza disaster and their that the building that the supplier works out of is safe families. enough. It is worried about that, but once it has ceased I would be grateful if the Minister could say a little to work with that factory I am not clear what will about the British Government’s view on compensation, happen to ensure that the factory ceases to operate or as that is important. We must ensure that the families of that it takes remedial action to ensure that it is a safe those who lost their lives are adequately compensated, working environment. as well as the 2,500 people who were injured. Some of 315WH Garment Industry (Working 30 APRIL 2014 Garment Industry (Working 316WH Conditions) Conditions) them, who are desperately poor, will never be able to facing the industry, through commitments made by work again and, as each day passes, they are getting into manufacturers, brands, development partners and, as is more desperate circumstances. essential, the Government of Bangladesh. A new labour Terrible things happen in faraway parts of the world, law has been introduced that allows for greater freedom but sometimes good can come out of those disasters of association and increased occupational health and and it is our duty to try to find that good. One such safety for workers. Encouragingly—this goes to the nub good is that, for consumers in wealthier parts of the of what the hon. Lady was referring to—more than one world who enjoy fast and cheap fashion, this is a thousand structural, fire and electrical safety inspections reminder of the human cost of our £10 dress from a have been carried out in the last year. However, a British high street chain. We have responsibility as further 2,500 registered garment factories need to have consumers to think more about that when we are buying structural, fire and safety inspections and those factories and brands need to think not just about the moral and that are not registered need to be identified. right thing to do, but their reputational risk when they Let me outline the action that the UK Government find that they may have contributed in some way to the have taken during the past year to help improve standards problems that caused disasters such as Rana Plaza. in the garment sector. Along with Canada and the Netherlands, the UK is providing £4.8 million to an 5.2 pm International Labour Organisation programme to improve The Minister of State, Department for International working conditions in the sector, which will conduct Development (Mr Alan Duncan): I congratulate the hon. about 1,500 structural, fire and electrical safety inspections. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana We have also supported the development of a website Mahmood)on securing this very important debate and I and an inspection database for the new Department of thank her for doing so. I acknowledge and admire her Inspection for Factories and Establishments. That is conviction and concern on this issue and agree in particular exactly the sort of objective that the hon. Lady outlined: about what she said about the enforcement regime. to get a common standard across the whole sector so The ready-made garment sector is in many ways a that the good do not pass on lower standards to the huge success story for Bangladesh: it is worth over bad. We are supporting the development of an efficient, £13 billion and it provides jobs for more than four million credible and transparent cadre of labour inspectors people, of whom over 70% are women. The garment through training and technical support. The inspectors industry supports a further 25 million people across the will ensure compliance with the new labour law and country. The problem, however, is that the growth in include occupational health and safety and working this sector has outpaced the development of the standards conditions in their remit. Training for the inspectors that underpin it. Like others around the world, we were begins next month. all shocked by the appalling loss of life in the tragedy at When I was in Bangladesh earlier this month, I Savar last year, where more than 1,100 people were launched three new projects that will help staff at all killed and a further 2,500 were injured. levels in garment factories to work together to improve In the immediate aftermath, the Department for the working environment by addressing issues such as International Development helped to provide trained fire safety, absenteeism and working hours. The projects volunteers and equipment to help rescue those who will provide training for middle managers in labour were trapped. Many of the injured were taken to the standards and, critically, improve the health care provided DFID-funded centre for the rehabilitation of the paralysed, to factory workers—in essence, by having a nurse in which is just 1 km down the road, for treatment and every factory. DFID is also helping to launch a new rehabilitation. The collapse was a wake-up call, not programme that will focus on building industrial relations only for the garment industry, but for all of us who buy inside factories—on the spot—so that management and clothes that may be made in Bangladesh. It threw the workers are better able to prevent, identify and solve spotlight on building and fire safety and on the wider problems in the work place. working conditions and rights of Bangladeshi garment On compensation, as the hon. Lady said, Primark— workers. which first of all got attacked in the press—has in fact I visited Bangladesh at the beginning of April, which been an absolute market leader and exemplar in how it was my second visit since the collapse, and I met survivors has paid out long-term compensation to workers and who have received help from the UK to recover from their families. I am aware that some other companies their injuries and retrain for new jobs. It was moving have made smaller additional contributions. I use this and inspiring to hear how the survivors have sought to opportunity today to ask other UK companies to step maintain their dignity and re-establish their livelihoods up and contribute to help the Rana Plaza workers. despite receiving such severe injuries and psychological At the heart of the issue is the idea that companies trauma. must take responsibility for all the workers in their We can all learn from their stories. The two that most supply chain. The best brands do the best things, and stuck in my mind were first that of someone called British companies can be a force for good by enforcing Yusuf, who was paralysed after he ran into the building improvements in their supply chain. I urge all brands, to help others to escape. The compensation that he has companies and retailers to think about their sourcing received means that his family has a secure future. I also practices and to introduce more transparency into supply met Amzad for the second time. He is a double amputee chains. Those standards have to go all the way from the who is being trained at the centre to use prosthetic legs. till at which a garment is sold right back to the sewing I also met the Government, factory owners and the machine where it is made. Accord on Fire and Building Safety. I am pleased to say The garment industry is having a positive impact on that, one year on from the Rana Plaza tragedy, genuine social change and women’s empowerment, by providing progress has been made in addressing the many challenges women with opportunities to work outside the home, to 317WH Garment Industry (Working 30 APRIL 2014 Garment Industry (Working 318WH Conditions) Conditions) [Mr Alan Duncan] sector in Bangladesh that benefits everyone. The priority now, assisted by today’s debate, which was initiated by earn their own money, to help support their family and the hon. Lady, is to maintain momentum and use this to have an alternative to early marriage. The empowerment first-year anniversary to push for continuing further of women must be allowed to continue and flourish progress. within the garment sector. We want to see continued growth, rather than boycotting or abandonment, so Question put and agreed to. that the sector can continue to flourish as an important part of the economy, thus increasing the number of safer and better jobs for women in particular. 5.10 pm The UK will continue to support work towards the goal of building a healthy, safe and sustainable garment Sitting adjourned. 51WS Written Statements30 APRIL 2014 Written Statements 52WS Written Statements National Space Security Policy

Wednesday 30 April 2014 The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David Willetts): Together with my right hon. Friend, the Minister for Europe and NATO, and my hon. Friends, the Under- BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Secretary of State for Defence, the hon. Member for Ludlow (Mr Dunne) who is responsible for defence equipment, support and technology and the Minister Assisted Areas Map 2014-20 for Security and Immigration, I am today publishing the Government’s first ever national space security policy. The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation I have placed a copies in the Libraries of both Houses. and Skills (Michael Fallon): I am today publishing the The Government acknowledge that there is a continuing Government’s response to the stage 2 consultation on opportunity for strong economic growth in the UK the UK’s 2014-20 assisted areas map. This includes the space sector and that with annual growth rates averaging final UK map notified to the European Commission. over 7.5% in recent years it is essential to recognise that The new map will replace the current version which for the space sector, growth and security must be viewed expires on 30 June 2014. Copies of the consultation as mutually reinforcing principles which should be response document and the map will be placed in the supported by national policy. The Government recognise Libraries of both Houses. that the space sector, as well as being a high-growth A two-stage public consultation seeking views on sector in its own right, provides via satellites vital services the designation of assisted areas for 2014-20 took for other sections of our economy. The national space place from July 2013 to February 2014. Approximately security policy sets out how we will work to sustain 330 written responses were received from a wide range access to these services, with adequate resilience against of organisations and individuals. The consultation included threats and hazards. The policy reinforces the national an interactive online draft map that allowed respondents security strategy, which identifies severe disruption to to search easily for areas of interest, bringing greater information received, collected or transmitted by satellites clarity and transparency to the consultation process. as a tier 2 risk to the United Kingdom and meets a The Commission’s regional aid guidelines (RAG) commitment in the strategic defence and security review define the parameters for assisted areas for 2014 to to address this. 2020. Under the guidelines the UK’s overall regional The national space security policy takes a broad aid coverage may cover a maximum of 27.05% of the approach to the United Kingdom’s space security interests, UK population, an increase on the 23.9% coverage in underpinning our prosperity, well-being and national 2007-14. security, and is based on four objectives. These are to: Working within the guidelines, assisted areas coverage make the United Kingdom more resilient to risks to space has been granted based on the potential to use regional services and capabilities, and British infrastructure less vulnerable aid to encourage economic growth through levering to space weather; private sector investment, as well as the economic need enhance the United Kingdom’s national security interests of the locality. A strong principle underpinning the map through space; is for coverage to focus on areas that are able to use the promote a safe and more secure space environment; and flexibility provided: many parts of the UK do not have enable industry and science to grasp commercial and academic the scale of industrial or development sites necessary to opportunities in support of national security interests. exploit assisted area status. The Government remain determined to promote the There was a high level of demand for assisted areas commercial and scientific benefits while ensuring the status, and given the limited population coverage available, United Kingdom is a safe and secure place in which to we have targeted those areas that can benefit most. The pursue these. This includes work to promote awareness UK’s industrial heartlands are central to the map, and a of space dependencies—for example, in highly automated wide range of different sized manufacturers are included, distribution networks and control centres, precise navigation from the high-tech sectors at the core of our industrial and timing systems and weather forecasting. The policy strategy to the more traditional industries that still also sets out how we intend to monitor and prepare provide vital employment to many communities. Support against threats and hazards which might harm these will also be available for additional disadvantaged coastal interests, and our wider national security. It identifies areas. Sites and businesses that can support growth in potential threats from state-sponsored and criminal less advantaged localities have been included, as well as attacks against satellite capabilities and services, and many that will make significant contributions to growth hazards such as severe solar storms and growing debris at a regional and national level. in space and how these might be prevented or the Assisted area coverage permits the UK to provide impact mitigated. additional financial support to firms in the designated Central themes in our policy response are stronger areas. It does not itself bring specific funding. Other coherence at home—across Government and in partnership forms of financial support are available both inside and with industry and science—and continuing co-operation outside assisted areas, including aid for research internationally with our allies and space-faring partners. and development, to improve access to venture capital Through the national space security policy, the and to support environmental projects. Government will foster a closer space security partnership The map has been sent to the Commission for approval, with industry and science that would allow more pooling and its decision is expected by the end of May. The new of space security expertise and better sharing of information map is expected to come into force from 1 July 2014. on space security risks, and on ways and opportunities 53WS Written Statements30 APRIL 2014 Written Statements 54WS to mitigate these. We recognise that maintaining and gaming machines to be in control of the choices they enhancing co-operation with our international partners make. This is particularly important for users of category is also fundamental to our space security objectives. We B2 gaming machines. will sustain co-operation with the United States, as our I have therefore decided that Government should pre-eminent national security partner, maintaining adopt a precautionary approach and take targeted and capabilities and assets which bring mutual benefit to a proportionate action to protect players further when relationship that greatly enhances our space security using high-stake gaming machines on the high street. interests. We will work closely with France and other I intend to require customers accessing stakes over key European partners such as Germany, including in £50 to use account-based play or load cash over the ensuring that European space programmes and future counter. Requiring better interaction between customer opportunities for collaboration move forward on a sound and operator for those engaged in high-stake play improves security footing. We will continue to promote transparency opportunities for more effective provision of information and confidence-building measures at the United Nations, and interventions. This measure will put an end to and through an international space code of conduct to unsupervised cash staking above £50, which can rapidly which all states would benefit in subscribing. result in significant losses. This is a sensible and balanced Implementation of the policy will be overseen by an approach which allows players continued use of these ad hoc ministerial-led steering group, which will report machines on the high street, while ensuring greater on progress through the National Security Council. opportunities for supervision and player protection. In addition, the Gambling Commission is undertaking a review of its licence conditions and codes of practice with a view to strengthening their measures to protect players. In particular, the Gambling Commission intends CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT to consult on requiring gaming machines in betting shops to present players with a choice to set limits on the maximum amount of time or money they want to Betting Shops and Gambling spend before commencing play.The Gambling Commission is also looking at how additional measures to protect players of gaming machines, such as pauses in play and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, messaging, should be toughened and made mandatory. Media and Sport (Mrs Helen Grant): The 2005 Gambling The Government will now prepare the necessary impact Act was introduced by the then Government with the assessments and regulatory measures to implement their aim of liberalising the gambling market in Great Britain. proposed changes. I expect these changes to be implemented Nearly seven years on from the Act’s implementation, from October 2014. the gambling industry has developed in innovative ways, with new products now marketed and made available on a greater scale than ever before. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS In many local communities concerns have been expressed about the clustering of betting shops on high streets. Plant Biosecurity Strategy These shops contain highly sophisticated gaming machines that now make up a greater proportion of revenue than The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and over-the-counter betting. In addition, we have seen Rural Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson): I would like to significant growth in the scale of gambling advertising. update the House on the progress that my Department The pervasive nature of such advertising means that has made in implementing the recommendations of the both children and adults are exposed to a considerably Tree Health and Plant Biosecurity Taskforce. This is greater amount of gambling advertising than ever before. further to my written ministerial statements of 20 May The Government want to give local communities a 2013, Official Report, column 54WS, 16 July, Official proper voice so their views are taken into account when Report, column 78WS, and 12 December, Official Report, plans for a new betting shop are submitted. My right column 53WS, in which I accepted the recommendations hon. Friend, the Secretary of State for Communities of the taskforce. and Local Government, is therefore proposing a re-emphasis Today my Department has published a plant biosecurity within the current planning classes. A smaller planning strategy for Great Britain which sets out the new, use class containing betting shops will mean that in strengthened approach to plant biosecurity my Department, future where it is proposed to convert a bank, building together with the devolved Administrations in Scotland society or estate agents into a betting shop it would and Wales, has adopted in order to meet the taskforce require a planning application. In addition, the Government recommendations. The strategy is being published alongside will remove the ability for other premises such as restaurants an update on operational activity to manage tree pests and pubs to change use without being obliged to seek and disease, including Chalara fraxinea (ash dieback). planning permission. The Department for Communities The strategy is based on the principles that action and Local Government will consult on the detail of taken must be risk-based; to make the most effective use proposals as part of a wider consultation on change of resources, and that Government, industry, non- of use in summer 2014. governmental organisations (NGOs), landowners and Furthermore, given the growth in marketing and the public must all be more aware of plant health risks promotion of virtual and electronic gambling, which and know what they can do to reduce and mitigate present fewer opportunities for face-to-face interaction, them, therefore playing their part to ensure plant biosecurity I believe new measures are necessary to ensure that is enhanced. It sets out high-level plans for strengthening vulnerable players are protected. I want players who use existing risk-based activity and developing new and 55WS Written Statements30 APRIL 2014 Written Statements 56WS innovative approaches such as a publicly-available risk TRANSPORT register and novel approaches to detection and diagnosis of pests and pathogens, which will include: Highways Agency Pre-border activities to reduce the risk of pests and diseases arriving here from overseas, including our work with countries beyond the EU to drive up standards; The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport Activities at the border to reduce the risk of pests and (Mr Robert Goodwill): In October 2013 the Government diseases entering the EU and the UK; began a period of public consultation on proposals for Action inland to step up surveillance and improve preparedness. transforming the Highways Agency into a Government- Work has already commenced to deliver the activity owned company. within this strategy, with the UK plant health risk Today I am publishing the Government’s response to register having been published on 21 January 2014, and this consultation. This document summarises the main Professor Nicola Spence having taken up the post of views and issues raised by respondents on the consultation chief plant health officer on 1 April. questions and explains the Government’s final decisions The strategy will be underpinned by a robust evidence made as a result of the views provided. base and a programme of work to identify and address Following the broadly positive response to most of capability and capacity issues. My officials have conducted the proposals we consulted on, today’s publication confirms extensive public engagement over the past six months our intention to: on the content of the strategy and will continue to work Set up the Highways Agency as a Government-owned strategic with those interested on its implementation. highways company—with the legal powers and duties to A copy of the strategy will be placed in the Library of manage and run the roads, appointed by licence from the the House. Secretary of State for Transport which sets clear conditions about how the company must act. Put in place a robust system of governance for this company— HEALTH giving the road operator the flexibility needed to operate, manage and enhance the strategic road network effectively, while ensuring clear accountability to the Secretary of State, European Health Care Payments Parliament and road users. We intend to make drafts of the governance documentation, including licence, the framework agreement and the articles of association, available over the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health summer to support the legislative process. (Jane Ellison): The Government have taken the decision Establish—for the first time—a “road investment strategy” to cease certain payments that the UK is not obliged to which will detail the performance standards the company make under the European regulations governing health will achieve and an investment programme it will deliver care entitlements, effective from 1 July 2014. These are over the next five years. We will publish this before the end of payments made to UK citizens who may be visiting or the year. residing in another member state, and removing these Set up new, discrete units within Passenger Focus and the entitlements could save up to £7 million. Office of Rail Regulation—to represent the interests of all those who use and rely upon the strategic road network, and These payments are reimbursements for European to monitor the efficiency and performance of the company. health insurance card (EHIC) co-payments and residual This change represents a clear break from short-term SI forms. EHIC co-payments are the payments individuals thinking and the stop-start culture that has characterised may need to make when accessing health care in another the sector in the past, enabling the operator to deliver EEA country using their EHIC card where that country the biggest ever upgrade of our road network while requires a financial contribution from its own citizens, saving the taxpayer at least £2.6 billion over 10 years. for which reimbursements can currently be claimed from the UK. These reimbursements will cease from It will put in place the structures, commitments and 1 July 2014. It will still be possible to claim reimbursements relationships to support a more ambitious infrastructure for any course of treatment received before 1 July, and programme, and allow the strategic highways company for a treatment started before 1 July and continuing to operate more like the best-performing infrastructure beyond that date during a particular stay in another companies in other sectors. It will allow Government to EEA member state, for example a continuous stay in adopt a more strategic role in managing the road network, hospital. meaning those running the roads day to day can be better held to account for the services they deliver, Residual SI forms are currently issued to early retirees ensuring that the roads are run responsibly and in the moving to another EEA country and not taking up public interest. employment, providing a temporary period of health care cover for maximum period of 30 months, dependent We believe these reforms will deliver significant benefits upon the individual’s recent national insurance contribution to road users and to the country as a whole, including: record in the UK. Applications for residual SI forms a longer term investment programme, which is vital for the will no longer be accepted after 1 July 2014. This many companies who help plan, build and maintain our roads who can start thinking about the skills and equipment change does not affect current holders of residual SIs or needed well in advance; the right of UK state pensioners to access health care enabling delivery of national road infrastructure fit for the when they retire to another EEA country. 21st century, to support jobs and growth up and down the These payments are not required under EU law, so country; the UK is currently going over and above its European providing road users with a better quality service; obligations. These proposals were outlined in the driving down the cost of improvements; consultation in July 2013 on migrant access to the NHS creating a more transparent system with clearer accountability; and then in the subsequent Government response, published ensuring effective scrutiny and a stronger voice for road in December 2013. users. 57WS Written Statements30 APRIL 2014 Written Statements 58WS

Transforming the Highways Agency is an essential enabling the supply chain to gear up for the Government’s component of success in delivering these benefits. It will ambitious plans for the future. This will support the give the road operator the ability to develop a more economy, promote jobs and skills and ultimately transform business-like approach, attract and retain skilled staff the quality of our national infrastructure. We look to and to deliver more efficiently—as proposed by Alan move to the new model with minimal disruption. Cook in his 2011 review. A copy of the Government’s response to the consultation Taken together, these reforms will provide a strong, will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses. The certain framework for managing our roads. It will strengthen document is available at: accountability, drive efficiency and increase transparency. https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/transforming-the- It will also create far more certain conditions for investment, highways-agency-into-a-government-owned-company 13P Petitions30 APRIL 2014 Petitions 14P

And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Chris Petition Heaton-Harris, Official Report, 3 December 2013; Vol. 571, c. 887.] Wednesday 30 April 2014 [P001305]

OBSERVATIONS Observations from the Secretary of State for Health: The commissioning and provision of cardiac rehabilitation services is a matter for the National Health Service HEALTH locally. Cardiac Rehabilitation Services at Danetre Hospital (Daventry) NHS England advises that Nene Clinical Commissioning Group sees cardiac rehabilitation as a key local priority The Petition of residents of the UK, and is working to improve local provision. The CCG Declares that the Petitioners believe cardiac rehabilitation will be discussing with providers when it would be should be introduced in Danetre Hospital to help local feasible to bring the service out to the community people recovering from heart problems. setting. The CCG would be pleased to have patient The Petitioners therefore request that the House representatives contribute to this process. I would encourage of Commons urges the Government to reintroduce this the hon. Member and his constituents to engage with service as soon as possible. the CCG on this matter.

687W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 688W

Matthew Hancock: These questions ask about a number Written Answers to of actions related to skills development from “Growth is our business: a strategy for professional and business Questions services”, published in July 2013 as part of Government’s industrial strategy. The strategy was developed in collaboration with the professional and business services Wednesday 30 April 2014 sector, focusing on the industry’s agenda for long term growth. It is led by the Professional and Business Services Council. The strategy reflects two key business priorities in ATTORNEY-GENERAL skills development. First, to expand recruitment routes into the sector, in particular higher apprenticeships, to Ukraine access a wider, more diverse talent pool. Second, to help businesses engage with the education system to raise aspirations and promote work readiness. A business-led Sir Edward Leigh: To ask the Attorney-General skills taskforce for professional and business services whether he has given advice to the Government on has been established. It is developing approaches to whether the removal of President Yanukovich was in implement the strategy and will report progress at the accord with the provisions of Article III of the end of this year. Constitution of Ukraine. [196900] The skills taskforce is leading work to help towards The Solicitor-General: By long-standing convention, the strategy’s ambitious target to treble the number of observed by successive Administrations and embodied higher apprenticeship starts across professional and in the Ministerial Code, the fact that the Law Officers business services to 10,000 over five years; and to follow may or may not have advised or have been requested to progress in the interim, so that the numbers of these advise on a particular issue, and the content of any apprenticeships can be monitored. As a first step, the advice, is not disclosed outside Government. taskforce is supporting the London Professional Apprenticeship scheme, which was launched in December 2013, and is now recruiting apprentices and employers to take part. The scheme will pilot the proposal for a BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS “clearing house” to help small firms access higher apprenticeships in professional and business services. In addition, the taskforce is backing new ‘trailblazer’initiatives, Apprentices announced in March 2014, to develop employer-driven standards for apprenticeships in several professional Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for and business services occupations. Business, Innovation and Skills with reference to Growth is Our Business: A Strategy for Professional The skills taskforce is currently researching the metrics and Business Services published in July 2013, (1) what for schools’ reporting and their effect on the prestige of progress his Department has made in (a) developing a higher apprenticeships as initial career destinations. It clearing house for professional and business services will consider if more could be done to ensure higher higher apprenticeship applicants and (b) helping small apprenticeships have parity of esteem with higher education. and medium-sized enterprises access this talent pool; The taskforce is also mapping current school engagement [195985] activity involving professional and business services (2) what progress his Department has made in establishing firms with a view to identifying and sharing good the effect of school reporting metrics on the prestige of practice. higher apprenticeships as a destination; [195984] The new emphasis on wider use of higher apprenticeships (3) what progress his Department has made in increasing across professional and business services should contribute the diversity of entry to the professional and business towards a greater diversity of routes into these careers services sector; [195987] in the years to come; potentially offering opportunities (4) what progress his Department has made in to a wider pool of talent. increasing the number of higher apprenticeships in the The skills taskforce intends to consider how the professional and business services sector; [195989] employability of young people can be supported within (5) what web-based initiatives have been set up to the national curriculum, but believes that greater link professional and business services businesses with engagement between employers and young people is the the education sector; [195990] best way of improving employability skills. (6) what progress his Department has made in piloting My noble Friend Lord Lingfield has set up the new approaches to improving business and skills system independent Institution for Further Education to take engagement and sharing of good practice; [195991] forward work on a new chartered status quality scheme (7) how many further education colleges have and is considering the application and assessment process engaged with business as a condition of achieving for Further Education providers. chartered status; [195992] The skills taskforce is exploring how web-based services (8) what progress his Department has made in can support engagement between firms and the education encouraging bodies to find innovative ways of improving sector, including a planned digital “inspiration” tool employability of young people within the national being developed by this Department to encourage business- curriculum. [195993] schools engagement. 689W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 690W

Further information on the implementation of “Growth and (c) other respects in the period (A) following its is our business: a strategy for professional and business founding and (B) at the time it was required to cease its services” is included in a progress report on industrial activities; and what representations his Department strategy, published on 23 April 2014: received for and against its decision to withdraw support. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/industrial-strategy- [196162] early-successes-and-future-priorities Matthew Hancock: The Government did not withdraw Apprentices: Lancashire funding from CE&SDL. In 2007, at the request of CE&SDL, the Learning and Skills Council (LSC) Mark Menzies: To ask the Secretary of State for transferred the contract for skills provision from CE&SDL Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his to a successor legal entity, Total People. CE&SDL Department is taking to increase the number of higher continued to operate when the contract was transferred apprenticeships in Lancashire. [196486] to Total People but did not directly receive any further funding nor did it acquire funding as a subcontractor. It Matthew Hancock: Higher apprenticeship starts in was dissolved as a company in April 2014. The Skills Lancashire local education authority have increased Funding Agency, as the LSC’s successor, continued to from 40 in the 2009/10 academic year to 370 in 2012/13. fund Total People, and still does so today. The Budget announced £20 million over 2014-15 and Both the earliest and latest performance data available 2015-16 for new support for employer investment in demonstrate a mixed picture. Prior to 2007 CE&SDL’s apprenticeships in England up to postgraduate level, performance was below the national average. After 2007, which will provide apprentices with the technical skills and the transfer of contact to Total People, performance that employers need. This will complement the £80 was stronger and sometimes higher than national average. million funding over 2014-15 and 2015-16 for 20,000 Neither the Government nor the Skills Funding Agency more higher apprenticeships announced in the autumn has received any representations about this organisation. statement-more than doubling current volumes. Consumers Business: Advisory Services Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his Business, Innovation and Skills with reference to Growth Department has taken to improve levels of customer is Our Business: A Strategy for Professional and Business service in UK businesses. [195935] Services published in July 2013, what progress his Department has made in the development of the growth Jenny Willott: Well-functioning, competitive markets voucher scheme; and if he will make a statement. encourage growth by creating incentives for firms to [195988] become more efficient and innovative to compete for customers including through better service quality.Markets Matthew Hancock: Since its launch in January 2014, can only be fully competitive if consumers are active the Growth Vouchers programme has attracted over and confident, meaning that they are willing to challenge 2,500 applications from small businesses and more than firms to provide a better deal, switch between suppliers £2.5 million worth of vouchers have been distributed. and take up new products. Vouchers can only be spent on strategic advice in five That is why this Government has undertaken the key areas; raising finance and managing cash flow; most fundamental reform to the competition and consumer recruiting and developing staff; improving leadership landscape in decades to make the UK’s already world and management skills; marketing, attracting and keeping class market framework fit for the future. That has customers; and making the most of digital technology. included establishing a new Competition and Markets We have been working closely with the Professional Authority (CMA), streamlining the landscape of and Business Services sector and so far over 2,700 Government-funded consumer organisations to put Citizens private sector business support providers offer their Advice at its centre, and overhauling the UK framework services through a new online marketplace (run by of consumer rights through the Consumer Rights Bill. Enterprise Nation), of which over 1,000 are approved to deliver advice under the Growth Vouchers programme. Further Education: Greater London Providers interested in offering their services should register at: Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will name each marketplace.enterprisenation.com/marketplaces/users/new further education college in Greater London. [196694] Businesses wishing to apply should visit: www.gov.uk/apply-growth-vouchers Matthew Hancock: Further Education Colleges incorporated under section 16 of the Further and Higher Cheshire Employer and Skills Development Education Act 1992 in Greater London are as follows: Barking and Dagenham College Mr O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Barnet and Southgate College Innovation and Skills what the evidential basis was of Bexley College his decision to withdraw Government support from Cheshire Employer and Skills Development Limited Bromley College of Further and Higher Education (CE&SDL); what assessment he made of the performance Capel Manor College of CE&SDL in (a) developing (i) work-based learning Carshalton College and (ii) any other skills, (b) encouraging apprenticeships LeSoCo 691W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 692W

City and Islington College (6) how many times the industrial strategy sector City of Westminster College council for the automotive industry has met since it College of North West London was formed; [195925] Croydon College (7) how many times the industrial strategy sector Ealing, Hammersmith and West London College council for life sciences has met since it was formed; Greenwich Community College [195926] Hackney Community College (8) how many times the industrial strategy sector Harrow College council for professional and business services has met Havering College of Further and Higher Education since it was formed; [195927] Kensington and Chelsea College (9) how many times the industrial strategy sector Kingston College council for offshore wind has met since it was formed; Newham College of Further Education [195928] Redbridge College (10) how many times the industrial strategy sector Richmond Adult and Community College council for international education has met since it was Richmond upon Thames College formed; [195929] South Thames College (11) how many times the industrial strategy sector Stanmore College council for agricultural technologies has met since it The College of Haringey, Enfield and North East London was formed; [195930] Tower Hamlets College (12) if he will publish the minutes of all meetings Uxbridge College held by his Department’s industrial strategy sector Waltham Forest College councils since they were formed; [195931] West Thames College (13) how many times (a) he or (b) Ministers in his Westminster Kingsway College Department attended a meeting of one of the Further Education Colleges Designated under section 28 industrial strategy sector councils since they were of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992 in formed; [195932] Greater London: (14) if he will publish the membership of each of his Hillcroft College Department’s industrial strategy sector councils. Marine Society College of the Sea [195933] Morley College Workers’ Educational Association Michael Fallon: The Government has worked with industry to establish councils (where they did not already Higher Education exist) for each of the 11 sectors. Each council is a partnership that brings together industry representatives, Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Ministers and Government officials, but they operate in Innovation and Skills what appeals process is in place a way that best suits the individual needs of the sector. for alternative providers which unsuccessfully applied It is for each council to determine whether the membership to have courses designated under the new specific and the minutes of meetings are published. course designation arrangements; and whether any alternative providers have successfully so appealed. The International Education Council has met twice [195760] since it was formed. The Minister for Universities and Science, my right hon. Friend the Member for Havant Mr Willetts: Applications for specific designation (Mr Willetts), co-chaired the meeting in September under the new specific designation arrangements are 2013 with the Minister for Skills and Enterprise, my decided by the Secretary of State. There is no appeals hon. Friend the Member for West Suffolk (Matthew process. Hancock), also in attendance. The Minister of State for Skills and Enterprise co-chaired the meeting in February Industrial Strategy Sector Councils 2014. The membership and minutes are available at: https://www.gov.uk/government/groups/international- Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for education-council Business, Innovation and Skills (1) how many times the The Construction Council has met three times since Industrial Strategy Sector Council for Aerospace has its formation. The Secretary of State for Business, met since it was formed; [195938] Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member for (2) how many times the industrial strategy sector Twickenham (Vince Cable), has attended every meeting council for construction has met since it was formed; and I also attended the first. The membership for the [195923] council is available at: (3) how many times the industrial strategy sector https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ council for the nuclear industry has met since it was attachment_data/file/210099/bis-13-955-construction-2025- formed; [195921] industrial-strategy.pdf (4) how many times the industrial strategy sector The Offshore Wind Industry Council has met three council for the information economy has met since it times and I attended on each occasion. The membership was formed; [195922] and minutes are available at: (5) how many times the industrial strategy sector http://www.thecrownestate.co.uk/energy-infrastructure/ council for oil and gas has met since it was formed; offshore-wind-energy/working-with-us/offshore-wind- [195924] industry-council/ 693W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 694W

The Life Sciences Sector Councils includes the Ministerial The Aerospace Growth Partnership has met seven Industry Strategy Group (MISG) and the Ministerial times since it was formed in 2011 with each meeting Medical Technology Strategy Group (MMTSG). These co-chaired by myself. groups have been in operation for many years. However, The Automotive Council has met on five occasions following the launch of the industrial strategy in September since the launch of industrial strategy. The Secretary of 2012, the groups have both met three times. The Minister State for Business, Innovation and Skills has attended of State for Universities and Science and the Parliamentary each meeting and I have attended on three occasions. Under-Secretary of State for Quality, my right hon. and Membership of the council is available at: noble Friend (Earl Howe), have attended each meeting http://www.automotivecouncil.co.uk/what-we-do/members but there has also been attendance from the Secretary of State for Health, my right hon. Friend the Member for National Careers Service South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), and the Commercial Secretary to the Treasury, my noble Friend (Lord Deighton), Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for on occasions. The membership and minutes are available at: Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer https://www.gov.uk/government/groups/ministerial-industry- of 3 April 2014, Official Report, column 744W, on strategy-group National Careers Service, what assessment his Department https://www.gov.uk/government/groups/ministerial-medical- has made of the National Careers Service’s progress in technology-strategy-group achieving its key strategic aims for marketing. [196641] The Nuclear Industry Council has met four times and has been attended by at least one Minister on each Matthew Hancock: The National Careers Service occasion (including the Secretary of State for Business, marketing strategy using targeted on-line activity has Innovation and Skills, the Secretary of State for Energy been pursued since October 2013. and Climate Change, the right hon. Member for Kingston Through regular market research we have seen an and Surbiton (Mr Davey), and myself). The membership increase in awareness1 of the support the National and minutes are available at: Careers Service offers since the campaign started from https://www.gov.uk/government/groups/nuclear-industry- 24% to 29%. All of the targeted groups show a greater council#membership awareness than the remainder of those sampled: The Information Economy Council has met four Awareness among individuals looking to advance their career times. The Minister of State for Universities and Science has increased by 28% increase to 39%; has attended three of these meetings and the Parliamentary Awareness among those who are looking for a better job to Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Communications support a change in circumstances has increased by 14% to 32%; and Creative Industries, my hon. Friend the Member for Awareness among those who have been or are about to be Wantage (Mr Vaizey), chaired the fourth meeting in his made redundant has remained broadly the same with 37% aware absence. The membership and minutes are available at: of the Service. https://www.techuk.org/about/information-economy-council/ Over 56% of these three groups are likely to use the Service, leadership compared with only 8% of others surveyed. 1 The Oil and Gas Council has met four times with Both spontaneous and prompted. ministerial attendance from either the Secretary of State Official Receiver for Business, Innovation and Skills or myself at each meeting. The membership and minutes are available at: Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ Business, Innovation and Skills how many disqualification attachment_data/file/175480/bis-13-748-uk-oil-and-gas- reports were submitted by each Official Receiver’s office industrial-strategy.pdf in the year ending 31 March 2014. [196334] The Agri-tech Council has met four times and has also held a telephone conference. There has been ministerial Jenny Willott: Detailed in the following table is the attendance from both the Minister of State for Universities office breakdown for the number of disqualification and Science and the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of reports submitted in the year ended 31 March 2014. State for Natural Environment and Science, my noble Friend (Lord De Mauley) at three of the meetings and OR Offices Number of reports submitted attendance from the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Natural Environment and Science at the fourth. Anglia 20 The council’s membership is available at: Central Midlands 25 East Midlands and S Yorks 29 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ Greater Manchester 13 attachment_data/file/227259/9643-BIS- UK_Agri_Tech_Strategy_Accessible.pdf Humber and E Yorks 20 Kent 9 The Professional and Business Services Council has London—Essex 5 met six times since it was formed in December 2012. On London—Herts, Bucks 20 each occasion, at least one BIS Minister (the Secretary Mid West and N Wales 21 of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, myself North 5 and/or the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for North East 19 Business, Innovation and Skills, my noble Friend (Viscount North West 20 Youngerof Leckie)) attended. The council’s membership South Central 9 is available at: South Wales 26 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ South West 7 attachment_data/file/211842/bis-13-922-growth-is-our-business- Surrey and Sussex 24 professional-and-business-services-strategy.pdf 695W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 696W

Paternity pay OR Offices Number of reports submitted 2012/13 West England 17 Number of Total claimed Average claimants (£ million) claim (£) Total 289 Ordinary Statutory 208,600 50.3 241.25 PIU Paternity Pay Additional Statutory 3,867 5.8 1,218 North 71 Paternity Pay South 36 Note: Total 107 All figures are estimates using the HMRC CANDIF database. Figures are calculated using a 2% or 3% scan of employer national insurance returns and scaling the results up to create a 100% estimate. Scan conducted in January Parental Leave 2014. Lucy Powell: To ask the Secretary of State for Paternity Leave Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has made of the annual (a) total cost and (b) cost per (i) Hywel Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for female and (ii) male employee of maternity and Business, Innovation and Skills if he will introduce paternity leave. [196413] financial support for individuals who have worked previously but do not qualify for statutory paternity Jenny Willott: The Government carried out an analysis leave and pay because they have recently started in their of the costs and benefits of providing leave for mothers new position. [195838] and fathers in the impact assessment which accompanied its consultation on the administration of shared parental Jenny Willott: The Government has no plans to introduce leave which was published in February 2013. This can financial support for individuals who do not qualify for be found at: statutory paternity leave and pay because they do not https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ have the required length of service. attachment_data/file/110692/13-651-modern-workplaces-shared- Paternity leave and pay was considered as part of a parental-leave-and-pay-impact-assessment2.pdf broader examination of family-related leave which led The impact assessment reflects the fact that there are to the introduction of shared parental leave and pay costs for both the Exchequer and business associated through the Children and Families Act 2014. with the taking of maternity and paternity leave. Business It is important to maintain the right balance between costs include, for example, where employers provide the needs of employees to take leave and the needs of occupational maternity or paternity schemes which go employers to have certainty when recruiting and hiring beyond the statutory minimum, and the costs associated new staff. Paternity leave and pay can be taken immediately with recruiting staff to cover a period of absence. from the birth of a child to allow the father to care for In relation to Exchequer costs, the Government collects the mother and the newborn. This means that unlike data on the total amount of statutory paternity pay and annual leave, where the exact dates of the absence can statutory maternity pay paid to employees by employers be agreed in advance, paternity leave dates are subject to and uses this to estimate the numbers taking paternity/ change. maternity leave and the size of average, or average The 26-week service qualification period allows employers weekly, claims. These figures represent the cost to the to plan effectively to cover an employee’s absence during Exchequer rather than business as statutory payments the paternity leave period, which would not be possible can be reclaimed by the employer. The latest available if the employee had just been recruited. figures for the costs to the Exchequer are as follows: Unlike paternity leave, maternity leave is a day one Maternity pay and maternity allowance right to ensure the health and well-being of both mother Number of claimants commencing in year Total claimed Average claim and baby. In order to qualify for statutory maternity 2011/12 (£ billion) (2010/11) (£) pay, a mother must have 26 weeks qualifying service (the same requirements as for paternity pay). Those Maternity 355,000 2.2 5,890 Pay mothers who do not have the requisite service for statutory Source: maternity pay may be entitled to maternity allowance. Expenditure is from employer returns to HMRC and is the average amount This is because the benefit system recognises pregnant recovered by employers. Average claim and spells commencing is based on L2 women and new mothers have a specific need to protect data (a 1% sample of HMRC National Insurance Contribution records). their own health and safety, and the health of their Total child, by allowing them to take time off work. There is Average number of Expenditure: Average weekly no equivalent paternity allowance or adoption allowance, claimants at any one 2012/13 claim: May time: May 2013 (£ million) 2013 (£) as there are not equivalent health and safety reasons to do so. Maternity 57,400 395 117.57 Allowance We have committed to a review of the changes to Notes: employment law enacted by the Children and Families 1. SMP Expenditure is subject to change due to late returns submitted by Act after 2018. employers to HM Revenue and Customs. 2. Maternity allowance weekly amounts are the average in payment at the end of Stationery May 2013. 3. Maternity allowance claimants exclude a small number of clerical cases and only include those with a successful claim to Maternity Allowance. Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Source: Innovation and Skills what levels of stock his Department A combination of DWP accounting data and 5% Administrative Data. Further holds of (a) stationery, (b) printer cartridges, (c) figures on Maternity Allowance are available here: https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/maternity-allowance-quarterly- treasury tags and other fasteners and (d) other office statistics consumables. [196195] 697W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 698W

Jenny Willott: The information requested is not held Crown Commercial Service centrally and can be obtained only at disproportionate cost. 11. Michael Fabricant: To ask the Minister for the Staff are encouraged to help reduce waste in the Cabinet Office what progress he has made on Department by avoiding printing documents unless developing the role of the Crown Commercial Service; completely necessary and by reusing or recycling stationery what savings to the public purse he expects to accrue where appropriate. The default setting on BIS printers from commercial reform of Government procurement; is to print in black and white and to print double sided. and if he will make a statement. [903760] This uses less energy and ink and cuts down on the demand for paper and reduces costs. Mr Hurd: The Crown Commercial Service is now a fully operational legal entity providing expert commercial UK Trade and Investment services to the public sector. It is at the heart of the Government’s Commercial Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Reform Programme and will continue to drive further Business, Innovation and Skills with reference to savings for the taxpayer and improve the quality of Growth is Our Business: A Strategy for Professional commercial and procurement activity across government. and Business Services published in July 2013, whether UK Trade & Investment has produced the marketing National Citizen Service plan and collateral. [195996]

Michael Fallon: UK Trade & Investment (UKTI) has 13. Caroline Dinenage: To ask the Minister for the developed a professional and business services marketing Cabinet Office what steps he plans to take to ensure plan in support of the strategy, setting out marketing that a higher proportion of young people from messaging which will be used to promote the sector at disadvantaged backgrounds participate in the National high profile events such as the Liverpool International Citizen Service. [903762] Festival of Business in July 2014 and the Global Law summit in 2015. UKTI has produced images for use in Mr Hurd: Social mix is at the core of National marketing material under the GREAT campaign, is Citizen Service. We take great care to ensure that all producing a promotional film and is developing a toolkit young people, regardless of background, are able to for reference and use by UKTI in the UK and overseas take part in the programme-and we know this is working. as an aid to promoting and supporting the sector. UKTI is working to identify case studies and develop Giro d’Italia messaging for use by stakeholders in their marketing activities. Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office (1) what support the Emergency Planning College has provided to the planning and preparation for the CABINET OFFICE Giro D’Italia Big Start in Northern Ireland in May 2014; [196661] Digital Government (2) how many training courses the Emergency Planning College has provided in Northern Ireland in 8. Neil Carmichael: To ask the Minister for the each year since the college was established; and how Cabinet Office what steps he is taking to promote many people from Northern Ireland have completed digital government. [903757] such training courses. [196574]

Mr Hurd: Online services tend to be faster, cheaper Mr Letwin: The Emergency Planning College (EPC) and more convenient, so we want all major Government has had no requests for direct support of the planning transactions to be digital by default. and preparation for the Giro D’Italia Big Start in This is not just about the opportunity to save the Northern Ireland in May 2014. The EPC has however taxpayer over £ 1 billion by the end of this parliament, delivered a variety of civil protection and resilience it is about transforming the experience that citizens planning courses in Northern Ireland for various have of dealing with Government. organisations, including Sports NI. The Emergency Planning College (EPC) has provided Youth Services 79 courses on emergency planning and crises management courses to 1170 attendees delivered in Northern Ireland 10. Ian Mearns: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet since 2006. In addition to the training provided for Office what steps he is taking to maintain the level of customer organisations in NI, the EPC has trained 358 practitioners from NI attending residential training courses youth services provision. [903759] at the EPC since 2006. Mr Hurd: We are supporting the voluntary sector in offering new learning opportunities for young people Government Departments: Drinking Water through programmes like NCS. In addition, we will be offering practical support to Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet local authorities who want to deliver high quality youth Office if he will estimate how much Government services in an innovative way-for example by access to departments have spent on filtering tap water for drinking our £10 million support programme for mutuals. in each of the last four years. [196664] 699W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 700W

Mr Hurd: The information requested is not held Mr Maude: As was the case under the previous centrally. However, as part of this Government’s Administration, the Government expects all holders of commitment to reducing waste and driving down costs, public office to work to the highest personal and we are challenging departments on the need to make professional standards. As set out in the Code of Conduct savings from facilities management. for Board Members of Public Bodies, public appointees are expected to uphold the standards of conduct set out Government Departments: ICT in the Committee on Standards in Public Life’s Seven Principles of Public Life. Simon Kirby: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Public Sector: Fraud Office what his policy is on ensuring that Government IT initiatives represent best value for money; and if he Chi Onwurah: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet will make a statement. [195412] Office pursuant to the answer of 17 March 2014, Official Report, column 469W, on public sector: fraud, if he will Mr Hurd: After the 2010 general election, this publish the independent project review of the Counter Government formed the Efficiency and Reform Group Fraud Checking Service when it is completed. [195713] to help and support departments in maximising value for money. Although responsibility for projects remains Mr Maude: As was the case under the previous the responsibility of individual departments, we introduced Government, internal policy advice is not normally strict controls to provide further scrutiny of spend published. including on IT projects. Trade Unions These controls can and have been used by the Cabinet Office to block inappropriate spending. In 2012-13 alone these controls helped us save taxpayers over £500 million Graeme Morrice: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet from IT, contributing to overall efficiency savings of Office whether his Department has any plans to end £10 billion in 2012-13 (the last year for which we have the employee trade union membership dues check-off audited figures). system. [196760] We have clarified our ‘red lines’ for IT procurement— Mr Maude: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I these are designed to encourage competition in the gave on 2 April 2014, Official Report, column 721W, to sector, free the government from longstanding inflexible the hon. Member for Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth). contracts with IT providers and ensure maximum taxpayer value. These rules include: we will no longer let ICT contracts over £100 million in value CHURCH COMMISSIONERS —unless there is an exceptional reason to do so. Contracts should be smaller to ensure the widest possible range of Stationery suppliers can compete for them. we will not give a contract for service provision to a company Mr Redwood: To ask the right hon. Member for providing the system integration function in the same part of Banbury, representing the Church Commissioners, government. It’s an important way of ensuring we are an what levels of stock the Church Commissioners hold of intelligent customer. (a) stationery, (b) printer cartridges, (c) treasury tags we won’t extend existing contracts unless there is a compelling and other fasteners and (d) other office consumables. case—it’s rare to find any good reason to extend the pricing and technology of the past. [196198] we do not expect to let hosting contracts for more than two Sir Tony Baldry: The Church Commissioners do not years. The cost of hosting seems to halve every 18-months. Businesses wouldn’t sign up for years upon end—and neither keep inventories of stationery items and office consumables, should government. to calculate the stock levels held would incur a disproportionate cost. The level of stock is monitored Government Departments: Procurement regularly, and replenished as necessary to meet staff needs. Graeme Morrice: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many contracts the Government holds with (a) Johnson & Johnson, (b) Ethicon and (c) BARD; COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT and what the value was of contracts with each such Empty Property company. [196721] Mr Robin Walker: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Maude: Since January 2011, as part of the Communities and Local Government what progress his Government’s transparency programme, details of contracts Department has made on reducing the number of above the value of £10,000 are published on Contracts empty homes in (a) the UK, (b) England, (c) the Finder at: West Midlands, (d) Worcestershire and (e) Worcester. https://www.gov.uk/contracts-finder [196072]

Non-governmental Organisations: Vetting Stephen Williams: Under this Government, the number of empty homes in England has fallen to a 10 year low. Paul Flynn: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet The number of long-term empty homes has fallen by Office what background checks are regularly made on around a third from October 2009 to October 2013, and appointees to quasi-autonomous non-governmental the overall number of empty homes has fallen by around organisations. [196791] a fifth over the same period. 701W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 702W

There is more to do, yet we have a comprehensive Statistics on Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland series of policies to get empty buildings back into use are published by the devolved Administrations. My and promote brownfield regeneration, as outlined in the Department does not publish regional statistics. The answer of 3 April 2014, Official Report, column 780W. number of vacant dwellings and long-term vacant dwellings, Local authority figures are published on my for Worcester, Worcestershire and England, are shown Department’s website, at live table 615: in Tables 1 and 2. www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/live-tables-on- dwelling-stock-including-vacants

Table 1: All vacant dwellings, Worcester local authority district, Worcestershire and England, 5 October 2009 to 7 October 2013 5 October 2009 4 October 2010 3 October 2011 1 October 2012 7 October 2013

Worcester 1,348 1,216 1,261 1,369 1,214 Worcestershire 7,298 7,103 6,983 6,960 6,406 England 770,496 737,147 719,352 704,357 635,127

Table 2: All long-term vacant dwellings, Worcester local authority district, Worcestershire and England, 5 October 2009 to 7 October 2013 5 October 2009 4 October 2010 3 October 2011 1 October 2012 7 October 2013

Worcester 579 382 428 476 355 Worcestershire 3,165 2,627 2,475 2,449 1,826 England 316,251 299,999 277,529 254,059 216,050

Local Government support economic growth in the areas of South Yorkshire, West Yorkshire, Greater Merseyside and Durham, Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Northumberland and Tyne and Wear. Communities and Local Government what recent The Government wants local authorities to be more progress he has made on the localism agenda; and if he transparent and accountable to local people for how will make a statement. [194875] they spend money, deliver services and take decisions. We will shortly be publishing a revised local authority Stephen Williams: This Government has been clear transparency code extending the breadth of data that about its intention to devolve power, responsibility and local authorities must publish and will make regulations decision-making down to the lowest possible level. This to make publication of certain data a legal requirement. vision underpins significant elements of our policy agenda Also, regulations which will allow members of the which are transferring power and freedom to both local public including professional journalists to film, photograph, councils and communities, some of which are noted as audio-record and use social media to report the proceedings follows. of meetings of local government bodies, and to access Nearly 1,000 assets of community value have been documents relating to decisions made by officers under listed and we have helped 150 organisations to acquire a delegation from their local government bodies, are now community asset or obtain significant investment towards before Parliament. doing so. 16 local campaigns for new parish councils are Under the business rates retention scheme local being supported covering local populations of more authorities now directly retain nearly £11 billion of than half a million people. Over 100 new Our Place business rates, instead of returning it to Whitehall. areas are starting work within their communities to The Government has also reformed the outdated council transform neighbourhood level service delivery.Community housing finance system with the introduction of self- share issues have raised over £24 million for community financing in 2012. This has given the 167 council landlords ventures. greater freedoms and the ability to plan for the long term Nearly 800 neighbourhood planning areas have been to better meet the needs of their tenants and local area. designated, and all 13 plans which have so far reached “HomeSwap” Direct-the national home swap scheme referenda have passed with significant majorities in favour. which increases opportunities for social tenants wishing Local authorities are now required to pass a proportion to move through mutual exchange-was launched in of Community Infrastructure Levy funding to local October 2011 and since then tenants have made over communities so that they can directly see the benefit of 18 million searches of ‘partner’ data. local development. Social landlords are now free to match the length of Over 2013-15 £14 million has been made available for tenancy to the needs of the household and to use their community groups to develop their proposals for social housing stock in a way which best meets the Community Right to Build orders or to progress needs of their local area. Councils have the freedom to community-led development. Groups can develop their decide who qualifies for social housing in their area and ideas on the development that they want and need in to find alternative solutions for those who do not qualify. their areas. Applications for this funding continue to Private Sector rise with around 60 applications received. In April 2014 four new combined authorities were Lucy Powell: To ask the Secretary of State for established, on the request of the councils concerned. Communities and Local Government how many jobs These will support the councils to collaborate and work have been transferred from the public to the private jointly across the wider functional economic areas on sector as a result of privatisations or outsourcing by his economic development, regeneration and transport to Department since May 2010. [195505] 703W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 704W

Brandon Lewis: The Department has not transferred electronic office supplies (printer toners and other any departmental jobs from the public to the private consumables). These contracts were awarded in September sector as a result of privatisations or outsourcing since 2011 and DCLG were among the first departments to May 2010. adopt them in November 2011. As part of our planned move of office accommodation Social Rented Housing this summer (to share with the Home Office to save taxpayers’ money), stationery across the department Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for will be surrendered and pooled, with the potential to Communities and Local Government what the net save money by not ordering items locally and preventing change was in the number of homes for social rent a build-up of surplus stationery stock. between 1984 and 1990. [196794] I hope this illustrates how every bit of the public sector has the potential to deliver sensible savings on Kris Hopkins: Statistics on the amount of dwelling back office costs. stock in England by tenure are published in the Department’s live table 104, which is available at the Tell MAMA following link: https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/live- Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for tables-on-dwelling-stock-including-vacants Communities and Local Government how much grant- Taken together, the private registered provider (housing in-aid his Department has provided to Tell MAMA association) and local authority tenures provide an since May 2010; and what further funding he expects to estimate of total social housing. provide. [194862]

Staff Stephen Williams: TELL MAMA is the first service to record and monitor anti-Muslim hatred incidents Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for and support victims. DCLG provided initial start-up Communities and Local Government what proportion grant funding to TELL MAMA of £395,500 between of his Department’s staff excluding non-departmental January 2012 and September 2013. TELL MAMA has public bodies were (a) women in top management subsequently received Big Lottery funding of £255,450 posts women, (b) women, (c) black and minority over two years from October 2013.victims. DCLG provided ethnic and (d) disabled. [196415] initial start-up grant funding to TELL MAMA of £395,500 between January 2012 and September 2013. Brandon Lewis: The current proportion of women in TELL MAMA has subsequently received Big Lottery DCLG top management posts is 36.8%. While there is funding of £255,450 over two years from October 2013. more to do to ensure the civil service has the very best possible mix of existing and future talent, I would Wind Power observe that this is an increase from 33.0% from 2009-10, and is higher than the civil service work force target of Julie Elliott: To ask the Secretary of State for 34.0%. Communities and Local Government (1) pursuant to the I also refer the right hon. Member to my answer of answer of 18 March 2014, Official Report, column 533W, 17 March 2014, Official Report, columns 398-400W. on wind power, what proportion of the anticipated generating capacity of onshore wind projects at appeal Stationery stage in the planning system on 1 October 2013 related to applications subsequently recovered by him; [196645] Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) what proportion of the anticipated generating Communities and Local Government what levels of capacity of onshore wind projects at appeal stage in the stock his Department holds of (a) stationery, (b) planning system related to applications recovered by printer cartridges, (c) treasury tags and other fasteners him in each month of 2013. [196646] and (d) other office consumables. [196199] Kris Hopkins: As I have said in my earlier answer, my Brandon Lewis: My Department does not routinely Department does not centrally hold details of the generation record this information in the format requested. However, capacity of wind turbine appeals. this Administration has cut spending significantly on As at 1 October 2013, there were 255 onshore wind office supplies, cutting expenditure from £480,180 (inc farm appeals, of which 32 were or have subsequently VAT) in 2009-10 to £73,738 in 2013-14. been recovered. In 2010, we conducted an internal review of the I can confirm that 17 onshore wind farm appeals Department’s spend on office supplies which highlighted were recovered in 2013. This amounts to 6% of the several opportunities to achieve savings. A rationalised number of onshore wind farm appeals received (280) list of stationery items was created which: during that period. reduced the available catalogue of items from around 3,500 to approximately 220; 2013 Appeals received Appeals recovered replaced higher value branded items, with non-branded equivalents; January 23 4 and February 37 1 adopted recycled printer toners and copier paper. March 28 2 Significant savings were also achieved by aggregating April 19 1 the spend of all Departments and awarding a single May 25 1 Cabinet Office contract for stationery items and one for 705W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 706W

Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for 2013 Appeals received Appeals recovered Education what research his Department has commissioned June 27 1 on a potential relationship between domestic abuse July 19 2 experienced by children and low educational attainment August 26 in later life. [196558] September 24 1 October 14 3 Mr Timpson: The Department for Education has not November 17 1 commissioned research on the possible relationship between domestic abuse and a child’s subsequent educational December 21 attainment. Reports published earlier this year by the Total 280 17 Early Intervention Foundation and by Coordinated I also refer the hon. Member to the written statement Action Against Domestic Abuse highlighted the impact of 9 April 2014, Official Report, columns 12-13WS, on children’s wellbeing of exposure to domestic abuse. which explains the background to the recovery of these Though these reports did not focus on later educational planning appeals. attainment, they illustrated potential disruption to children’s lives that is likely to affect their education. The Government is committed to safeguarding children from any form of abuse. EDUCATION Children: Social Services Pupil Exclusions: Autism

Mr Jeremy Browne: To ask the Secretary of State for Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many children have been removed from Education pursuant to the answer of 4 March 2014, their parents by social services in each of the last five Official Report, columns 787-88W, on pupil exclusions: years. [196237] autism, whether his Department plans to employ further exclusion advisors. [196705] Mr Timpson: The following table shows the number of children who were taken into care in each of the last Mr Timpson: The Department for Education does five years. Children who were taken into care were not employ any exclusion advisers. children who started to be looked after under a care The exclusion adviser referred to in the answer of 4 order, police protection, emergency protection order or March 2014, Official Report, columns 787-88W, on child assessment order. pupil exclusions: autism is employed by the National Children who were taken into care during the years ending 31 March Autistic Society using a grant provided by the Department 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 under the National Prospectus Grants Programme 2013-15. Number of children taken 8,180 9,580 9,560 10,140 11,100 into care Pupils: Absenteeism The information provided in the table is also published in table C2 of the statistical release, which is available Heidi Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for online: Education what data his Department collects on children missing education; what information schools https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/children-looked- after-in-england-including-adoption are expected to record in the Lost Pupil Database, part of his Department’s school2school site; and how many Domestic Violence pupils’ records were held in the Lost Pupil Database on 1 February (a) 2014, (b) 2013, (c) 2012, (d) 2011 and Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for (e) 2010. [196657] Education what assessment his Department has made of the number of UK households which experience Elizabeth Truss: The Department for Education does high risk domestic abuse; and what assessment he has not collect data on children missing education. Section 436A made of the effect of such abuse on children. [196555] of the Education Act 1996 places a duty on local authorities to have arrangements that enable them to Mr Timpson: Information about the number of children establish the identities of children in their area who are at risk because of domestic abuse has been collected by not registered pupils at a school, and are not receiving local authorities as part of the Department for Education’s suitable education through a means other than at a Children in Need census since April 2013. The first school. Local authorities may decide as part of this figures will be available from autumn 2014. duty to collect information on children who may be missing education or at risk of doing so. The Department’s Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for statutory guidance to local authorities advises that they Education what discussions he has had with the (a) must have robust procedures in place to fulfil their legal Home Secretary and (b) Secretary of State for Justice duty. on domestic abuse and its effect on children. [196556] The ‘lost pupils database’ (LPD) records the transfer Mr Timpson: Issues relating to domestic abuse are records of pupils whose correct destination is not known. discussed in meetings of the Inter-Ministerial Group on Files are retained whenever a child leaves a school for a Violence Against Women and Girls, chaired by the destination outside the maintained school sector. Examples Secretary of State for the Home Department. I represent of these destinations include ‘gone to an independent the Department for Education at these meetings, and school’, ‘gone sick’, ‘moved abroad with parents’ or Ministry of Justice Ministers also attend. ‘moved on without reason’. 707W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 708W

The LPD is not used by Children Missing Education Schools: Governing Bodies (CME) officers to record CME data. The primary function of the Department’s School to School (S2S) secure data Mr Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for transfer website is to provide schools and local authorities Education pursuant to the answer of 7 April 2014, (LAs) with a mechanism for the secure and ongoing Official Report, column 86W, on schools: governing transfer of thousands of statutory child-level data files bodies, how many governors (a) have completed and per week to new schools/LAs when children move school. (b) are expected to have completed National College The details required for the Lost Pupil Database are: for Teaching and Leadership training on dealing with File Name performance related pay awards for teachers by 1 September 2014. [196691] Source school Source LA Mr Timpson: From January to April 2014, 3,205 UPN school governors completed the National College for Surname Teaching and Leadership (NCTL) training on dealing Forename with performance related pay awards for teachers; 7,200 DOB are expected to complete the training by 1 September 2014. Gender Governors have held school leadership to account for school performance, including the assessment of overall Former UPN teacher performance, for some time. With the introduction Former Surname of performance-related pay, governing bodies will have Middle Names already approved revised pay policies that set out precisely Ethnicity how their schools will make performance and pay decisions. FSM eligibility To support governors in exercising their responsibilities, In Care the Department for Education issued advice on Care Authority implementing the new pay arrangements. The NCTL is SEN status also providing these free training workshops for governors Start Date on performance-related pay and financial efficiencies. Postcode In addition, the National Governors Association (NGA) has published guidance on how governors should prepare Sessions Possible to deal with pay appeals. We believe that, with this Sessions Attended support, most governing bodies will have the knowledge Sessions Unauthorised and awareness of the key issues they need to address to First Language ensure that robust evidence-based pay decisions are LPD records are stored for a minimum of 12 months. made this September. The last ‘clear down’ took place in October 2013 which means monthly additions are only held back to October Special Educational Needs 2012. At 1 February 2014, 15,128 records were held on Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for the system. Records are not removed from the system Education pursuant to the answer of 3 February 2014, until the general ‘clear down’, so the figure does not Official Report, column 57W, on special educational represent pupils missing from education at any given needs, which organisations and charities have been time. consulted on the Special Educational Needs Code of School Meals Practice. [196572] Mr Timpson: The consultation on a draft Special Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Educational Needs Code of Practice was an open Education pursuant to the answer of 7 April 2014, consultation and any organisations or individuals could Official Report, column 56W, on soft drinks: schools, respond. The Department for Education received over what proportion of (a) academies and (b) free schools 700 responses from a wide range of organisations and have made a voluntary commitment to adhere to the individuals including parents; young people; early years; school food standards regulations. [196756] schools; further education professionals; local authorities; health sector professionals and voluntary and community Mr Laws: During their review of school food, the sector organisations, including many from the special authors of the School Food Plan approached several educational needs and disability fields. academy chains, including the Harris Federation, the A short, focused consultation is now being carried Oasis Community Learning Multi-Academy Trust, and out on a revised draft, which takes account of responses the School Partnership Trust. All agreed in principle to to the public consultation and amendments to the Children comply with the standards, and representatives from and Families Bill during its passage through Parliament. the Leon Foundation will be attending the Academies A full response to the consultations on the Code of Show on 30 April with a view to encouraging as many Practice will be published in the next few weeks and this academies and free schools as possible to sign up formally will give details of organisations and charities who to the new standards. responded. 99% of those academies which responded to a survey by the School Food Trust in 2012 said they were committed Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for to following the new food standards. All academies and Education pursuant to the answer of 4 February 2014, free schools signing their funding agreements from spring Official Report, column 191W, on special educational 2014 are required to adhere to the new, less bureaucratic needs, when the pilots will launch and finish; and when school food standards. the findings of such pilots will be published. [196573] 709W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 710W

Mr Timpson: The Department for Education, in Registration consultation with the Ministry of Justice and others, Age rate will in the near future be developing proposals for the Register band (percentage) Study conducted by: review of redress and complaint arrangements for children April 2011 (Great 17 to 18 55 Electoral Commission (EC) and young people with special educational needs and Britain) disabilities, of which these pilots will form a part. We 19 to 24 56 estimate that the pilots will begin in the spring of 2015 as the first appeals about the new Education, Health February 2001 18 to 24 84 EC and Office for National and Care plans begin to be heard and that the pilots will (England and Statistics last for two years as they build up the evidence on which Wales) to base any recommendations. The Secretary of State for Education and the Lord Chancellor must lay a February 1991 18 to 19 88 Office of Population Census report on the outcome of the review before Parliament (Great Britain) and Surveys—Social Survey within three years of the any of the provisions of part 3 Division of the Children and Families Act 2014 coming into February 1981 18 to 19 87 force in September 2014. Interim findings from the (Great Britain) pilots could be published before the final report on the review. Chris Ruane: To ask the hon. Member for South West Devon, representing the Speaker’s Committee on UN Convention on the Rights of the Child the Electoral Commission, pursuant to the answer of 8 April 2014, Official Report, column 193W, on Sarah Champion: To ask the Secretary of State for electoral register, if the Electoral Commission will Education what guidance his Department has issued to introduce public awards for electoral registration other government departments on implementing the officers who have set best practice in the UK. [196133] Government’s commitment to give due consideration to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child when Mr Streeter: The Electoral Commission informs me considering new policy or legislation. [903755] that it will consider the idea of awards as part of work it is already undertaking with the UK Electoral Advisory Mr Timpson: The Cabinet Office’s ‘Guide to Making Board and the wider electoral community ahead of the Legislation’, published in July 2013, states that officials 2015 UK parliamentary general election to explore in all Government Departments are expected to have options for identifying, recognising and sharing what regard to the United Nations Convention on the Rights works well in electoral administration. of the Child (UNCRC) before starting the legislative The Electoral Commission also informs me that it process. A copy of the guidance is available online at: already provides comprehensive guidance, tools and https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ templates for Electoral Registration Officers (EROs) attachment_data/file/210917/Guide_to_Making_Legislation which have been developed in consultation with the _July_2013.pdf electoral community and which contain examples of It is for individual Departments to determine how tactics and activities that can be employed by EROs best to comply with this commitment in practice. The locally. Additionally, in monitoring preparations for the Department for Education has offered advice to them transition to Individual Electoral Registration, the in a variety of forms in our role of co-ordinating the Commission has already worked to facilitate sharing of forthcoming report to the UN Committee for the UK’s knowledge and experiences between EROs facing similar fifth periodic review, which will set out the progress challenges, and intends to build on this throughout the which has been made in implementing the UNCRC transition, supporting timely identification and sharing since the last review in 2008. of what works and what does not.

Chris Ruane: To ask the hon. Member for South West Devon, representing the Speaker’s Committee on ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE the Electoral Commission, pursuant to the answer of 8 April 2014, Official Report, column 193W, on electoral register, for what reasons the Electoral Electoral Register Commission had previously organised voter registration drives for overseas voters but had not Chris Ruane: To ask the hon. Member for South organised such drives for UK citizens who reside in the West Devon, representing the Speaker’s Committee on UK. [196134] the Electoral Commission, what the voter registration rate was for 18 year olds in each of the last 30 years. Mr Streeter: The Electoral Commission informs me [196131] that it regularly carries out public awareness campaigns—or registration drives—in the UK. Its guidance to Electoral Mr Streeter: The Electoral Commission informs me Registration Officers also highlights ways in which local that it does not hold figures on the registration rates for public engagement plans can increase registration in the 18-year-olds in each of the last 30 years. UK through targeted local activities. However, it does hold estimates of registration rates Overseas Registration Day was a new initiative this for age groups from several studies conducted on the year as part of its expatriate registration campaign. Bite accuracy and completeness of the electoral registers in the Ballot also established a similar initiative in the UK Great Britain. this year that the Commission supported. 711W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 712W

Given this, the Commission would not look to establish benefiting from energy company obligation in 2013 and its own separate voter registration day in the UK, as from the carbon emissions reduction target scheme in this may be confusing for voters. It is, however, actively 2012. [196751] working with Bite the Ballot to see what further support it can provide them for National Voter Registration Gregory Barker: The latest provisional statistics on Day next year. green deal and the energy company obligation (ECO) showed that around 530,000 measures were installed in Chris Ruane: To ask the hon. Member for South 450,000 households through ECO in 2013. The full West Devon, representing the Speaker’s Committee on statistical release can be found at: the Electoral Commission, pursuant to the answer of 8 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/green-deal-and- April 2014, Official Report, column 193W, on electoral energy-company-obligation-eco-monthly-statistics-april-2014 register, if he will place a copy of the responses from electoral registration officers on whether or not they No information was collected on the number of carried out a personal canvass of all non-responders in households benefiting from the carbon emissions reduction the Library and on the internet. [196135] target (CERT) in 2012. Around 2.4 million measures (cavity wall insulations, loft insulations and solid wall Mr Streeter: The Electoral Commission informs me insulations) were installed in 2012 through CERT, but that it has published data provided by Electoral Registration more than one of these measures could have been Officers (EROs) relating to their annual canvass activity, installed in some households. We do not hold information including data relating to house-to-house inquiries, for on other measures delivered through CERT by year. each year from 2008 to 2012 on its website at: When comparing the two years, it is important to http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by- bear in mind that the rules for each scheme were different. subject/performance-standards/performance-in-running- ECO has focused particularly on the delivery of harder electoral-registration to treat measures which were not the main focus under As set out in its report ‘Readiness for the transition to CERT. CERT delivery in 2012 was also the highest of Individual Electoral Registration’, which was published the five years of CERT as this was the last year of the in March 2014, the Commission is currently completing scheme. a detailed analysis of the data provided by EROs relating to the 2013 canvass and will publish this information on Energy: Housing the internet and place a copy in the House of Commons Library once it has been completed. Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Ruane: To ask the hon. Member for South Energy and Climate Change what estimate his Department West Devon, representing the Speaker’s Committee on has made of the required rate of delivery of household the Electoral Commission, pursuant to the answer of energy efficiency measures required in order to meet 8 April 2014, Official Report, column 193W, on carbon emissions reduction targets. [196749] electoral register, for what reasons the Electoral Commission does not collect data on the number of Gregory Barker: The Government published its “Energy attainers registered as part of its monitoring of Efficiency Strategy” in 2012, and “Fifth Annual Progress electoral registration officers. [196136] Report: Meeting the Carbon Budgets—2013 Progress Report to Parliament” in October 2013, available at: Mr Streeter: The Electoral Commission informs me https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ that it reviews the data on registered attainers collected attachment_data/file/65602/6927-energy-efficiency-strategy--the- by the Office for National Statistics and, separately, energy-efficiency.pdf carries out assessments of the accuracy and completeness https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ of the registers periodically. attachment_data/file/249172/CCC5th.pdf The Commission also informs me that its current These set the longer term context for delivering energy performance standards framework is designed to support efficiency measures into the UK’s housing stock, and Electoral Registration Officers (EROs) in preparing for the potential contribution they can make to delivering and delivering the transition to Individual Electoral our longer term carbon targets. Registration. The standards seek to ensure that EROs have appropriate plans in place to address the particular Floods: Cumbria challenges in their registration area in order to maximise registration, and that they monitor and evaluate the Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy effectiveness of their activities. and Climate Change what recent assessment he has The Commission will continue to keep its performance made of the potential risks posed by (a) flooding and standards framework under review and will consider (b) rising sea levels at the Drigg Low-Level Waste whether specific information on the number of attainers Repository in Cumbria. [196653] registered should be included as part of the data it requests from EROs in the future. Michael Fallon: Radioactive waste management activities are subject to permitting by the Environment Agency under legislation introduced by the Department. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE As part of the environmental permitting process for Energy Companies Obligation radioactive waste disposal the agency has required the operators of the Low-Level Waste Repository (LLWR) Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for to consider long term coastal erosion at the site and the Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has need for and feasibility of providing sea defences. These made of the difference in the number of households issues are assessed within an Environmental Safety 713W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 714W

Case submitted to the Environment Agency in May Grand 2011 which has been subject to review by the Environment Destination 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 total Agency over the last two to three years and also the subject of a public consultation between November Gambia 1 2 6 0 0 9 2013 and February 2014. Iran (Islamic 04130 8 Republic of) Green Deal Scheme Germany 1 2 2 0 2 7 Greece 0 2 1 0 2 5 Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for Mongolia 0 2 1 1 0 4 Energy and Climate Change what steps he plans to South Africa 0 0 3 1 0 4 take to ensure that consumers benefit from green deal Albania 0 0 0 1 0 1 Nigeria 0 0 0 0 1 1 incentives. [196750] Uganda 0 0 0 0 1 1 Destination field is 4 3 10 2 6 25 Gregory Barker: The green deal incentives are being blank designed to be straightforward for customers to understand Grand total 38 91 183 87 110 509 and take up. Notes: We will launch a consumer engagement campaign to 1. Destinations do not always equate to final destinations. 2. Data relates to people that were over 18 at time of departures. begin once the incentives become available. 3. Figures provided cover the calendar years 1 January to 31 December. UK Coal Asylum: North East

Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Energy and Climate Change if he will place in the Home Department if she will take steps to ensure that Library a list of the land and property owned by UK the application for exit costs submitted to her Coal and its subsidiaries that was previously owned by Department by the North East Refugee Service in the National Coal Board and British Coal. [196670] March 2014 is paid immediately. [196566]

Michael Fallon: No. A portfolio of land and property James Brokenshire: The North of England Refugee was transferred to a predecessor company of UK Coal Service submitted an exit cost claim as a constituent Production Ltd (“UK Coal”) in 1994. It would be for part of a wider claim submitted by the Refugee Council UK Coal itself to clarify what from that portfolio to the Home Office. Negotiations on the claim are remains in its ownership. under way between the Home Office and the Refugee Council. British Air Transport Association HOME DEPARTMENT Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for the Asylum: Deportation Home Department when she plans to respond to the letter addressed to the Minister of State for Crime Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for the Prevention from the British Air Transport Association Home Department pursuant to the answer of 24 dated 7 February 2014. [196642] March 2014, Official Report, column 16W, on asylum: deportation, to which countries the enforced removals Norman Baker: I can confirm that I responded to the of adults previously classified as unaccompanied British Air Transport Association on the 28 April 2014. asylum-seeking children were made in each such year. Community Relations [196663]

James Brokenshire: The following table shows the Heidi Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for the number of enforced removals of adults who were previously Home Department whether her Department plans to classified as Unaccompanied Asylum Seeking Children implement the Bling-Back scheme recommended in (UASC) for the period January 2009 to December 2013. Baroness Newlove’s report, Our Vision for Safe and Active Communities, published in March 2011. Grand [196647] Destination 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 total

Taiwan (Republic of 2 8 30 18 22 80 Karen Bradley: There has been a scheme since 2004 China) whereby a proportion of the proceeds of crime recovered Ghana 5 16 24 7 11 63 from drug dealers and other criminals are returned to Pakistan 6 17 13 7 4 47 law enforcement agencies. The money returned to law India 0 3 17 13 13 46 enforcement has been used to support a continued China 5 6 15 6 10 42 increase in the amounts recovered from criminals and Italy 4 7 17 6 8 42 can be invested in community projects. Kenya 1 2 12 6 10 31 Crime: Rural Areas Malaysia 6 3 13 1 2 25 United Arab 26634 21 Emirates Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for the Brazil 0 5 5 4 4 18 Home Department what assessment she has made of New Zealand 0 1 1 5 8 15 trends in the level of rural crime; and if she will make a Ukraine 1 2 6 3 2 14 statement. [196281] 715W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 716W

Norman Baker: Across the country, crime has fallen Assault can extend to non-physical harm, and this by more than ten per cent since June 2010.The latest can include psychological, financial, and emotional abuse. published data from the Crime Survey for England and Stalking and harassment legislation, which criminalises Wales shows that the proportion of adults who were a course of conduct, can apply to intimate partner victims of crime was substantially lower in rural than relationships. urban areas, and has been falling since 2009/10. According Last September, the Home Secretary commissioned to the 2012/13 Crime Survey for England and Wales, Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary to conduct 13.4 per cent of people in rural areas were victims of a review of the response to domestic abuse across all crime, compared with 20.1 per cent in urban areas. police forces. HMIC published its findings in March However, the latest findings from the Commercial 2014, emphasising that the key priority is a culture Victimisation Survey of crimes against businesses, which change in the police so that domestic violence and abuse looked at crime affecting the agriculture, forestry and is treated as the crime that it is, and pointing out that fishing industry, showed that there were 130,000 incidents the police use the full range of tools already available to of crime against the agriculture, forestry and fishing them. sector in 2013, affecting just under a third (30 per cent) The Home Secretary will chair a national oversight of premises. Of the six business sectors surveyed in 2012 group to oversee delivery against each of HMIC’s and 2013, the agriculture, forestry and fishing sector recommendations on which I will also sit. experienced the lowest rate of overall crime (1,475 incidents per 1,000 premises). Drugs: Misuse The Government recognises that rural communities are vulnerable to certain crimes. The election of Police Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for the and Crime Commissioners has given communities, including Home Department what steps he is taking to give local rural communities, a stronger voice in determining how authorities greater powers to deal with the consumption police resources are allocated to tackle the crimes that of legal highs in a public place; and what support he is matter most to them. providing to councils who wish to put by-laws in place to prevent such consumption. [196379]

Crimes of Violence: Taxis Norman Baker: As stated in my answer to the Honourable Member of 7 April 2014, Official Report, column 112W, Andrew Bridgen: To ask the Secretary of State for the on 12 December 2013 I announced a review by an Home Department how many attacks were recorded expert panel to look at how the UK’s response to new against licensed taxi drivers in each year between 2008 psychoactive substances, sometimes inaccurately called and 2012. [196523] ‘legal highs’, can be enhanced beyond the existing measures. The expert panel includes a senior policy adviser from Norman Baker: I regret that the requested data are the Local Government Association to inform the work not available centrally. of the panel from a local government perspective, including whether existing by-laws may be used to tackle this Domestic Violence damaging trade. This work is ongoing, and the panel is due to report its recommendations by the end of spring 2014. Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) if she will bring forward To support local authorities, the Home Office published legislative proposals to criminalise patterns of coercive guidance in December 2013 setting out the range of legislative tools local authorities can use to tackle the control in domestic violence cases; [195661] ’head shops’ where these substances are often sold. This (2) if she will bring forward legislative proposals to was developed in collaboration with the Department criminalise psychological abuse and coercive control; for Communities and Local Government, the Local [195662] Government Association and the Trading Standards (3) if she will bring forward legislative proposals to Institute and can be found here: (a) criminalise a pattern of partner abuse and (b) https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/action-against- ensure that the police are not required only to treat each head-shops incident comprising such a pattern as a separate crime; The guidance covers offences head shops may be [195664] committing under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971, the (4) if she will bring forward legislative proposals to Intoxicating Substances (Supply) Act 1985, and various introduce provisions for bringing prosecutions on the consumer protection regulations. basis of a course of conduct in which a person has The Home Office has also provided targeted support acted strategically to control, isolate, intimidate or degrade to local authorities with testing of new psychoactive their victim in domestic violence cases. [195666] substances through the Forensic Early Warning System, to help them take action against the sale of these Norman Baker: Domestic abuse is already a crime. products by identifying the contents. There are a number of offences that make domestic abuse illegal, including actual bodily harm, grievous Entry Clearances bodily harm and assault. The cross-Government definition is clear that domestic abuse is any incident or pattern of Adam Afriyie: To ask the Secretary of State for the incidents of controlling, coercive or threatening behaviour, Home Department what assessment she has made of violence or abuse between those aged 16 or over who the contribution of the (a) Tier 1 (Entrepreneur) visa are or have been intimate partners or family members route and (b) Tier 1 (Investor) visa route on economic regardless of gender or sexuality. growth. [193286] 717W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 718W

James Brokenshire: The Migration Advisory Committee and (b) county each of the suspected victims was (MAC) advises the Government on economic issues found; which agency referred each person to the relating to migration. scheme; in which town the shelter in which they were On 1 July 2013 the MAC published a “Report on the placed was for the relevant period; and what contact economic and labour market impacts of tier 1 entrepreneur has been made with each victim to ensure they are not and investor migrants to the UK” which it had re-trafficked. [196685] commissioned from the Migration Observatory. The report made a number of findings, although it concluded Karen Bradley: In February 2014, there were 126 that it was too early to make a full assessment of the referrals to the Government-funded support service for economic contribution of the two routes without further adult victims of human trafficking in England and research. The report is available on the gov.uk website Wales administered by the Salvation Army. In the interests at: of victim safety, only the region in which the victim was https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/economic-and- encountered is provided, and not which town they were labour-market-impacts-tier-1-entrepreneur-and-investor- placed in. Once an individual receives a Conclusive migrants Grounds decision, they will be given tailored support to More recently, on 25 February 2014 the MAC published safely return home or integrate in the UK. Once they its own report, “Tier 1 (Investor) route: investment exit the service, no formal mechanisms exist to maintain thresholds and economic benefits” in response to a contact. Government commission. The MAC concluded that Human Trafficking: Albania the direct investment required by the route is of little or no benefit, but there is some benefit from indirect Sir John Randall: To ask the Secretary of State for the spending by investors and their families in the UK Home Department if she will make a comparative (although this is difficult to quantify). The report is assessment of the sources, reliability and mutual available on the gov.uk website at: compatibility of the statistics on the number of human https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-investment- trafficking victims from Albania given in parliamentary limits-and-economic-benefits-of-the-tier-1-investor-route-feb- written answers and in the annual reports of the National 2014 Crime Agency. [196038] The Government keeps all routes under review and is currently considering its response to the MAC’s report Karen Bradley: A comparative assessment has been on the Tier 1 (Investor) route. made. Fraud Parliamentary questions regularly ask for specific details about suspected victims of trafficking referred Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for the to the trafficking victim support service operated by the Home Department what steps her Department is Salvation Army. taking to improve the performance of each police force The source of this data is the Salvation Army records. in England in handling cases referred to them by the The National Crime Agency (NCA) publishes statistics City of London Fraud Unit; and what the percentage each year on the number of potential victims who have detection is for such cases in each police force area. been referred to the National Referral Mechanism. [196507] The source of this data is the NCA records. Damian Green: The response of individual police The two sets of figures measure slightly different forces to fraud is a matter for the respective police and things but are mutually compatible. crime commissioner. However the Government is Not all of the potential victims who are referred to committed to assisting and, supported by £30 million of the National Referral Mechanism will then be referred Government investment in regional organised crime to the Salvation Army for victim support. Some might units last year, the police are improving consistency and not receive a positive reasonable grounds decision and uplifting their investigative capabilities in areas including others might not want Government-funded support. cyber crime and fraud. In addition, we have committed We would therefore expect the number of cases referred as part of the National Cyber Security Programme to to the National Referral Mechanism, reported by the train 5,000 police officers in cyber crime by 2015. NCA, to be higher than the number of cases referred to From 1 April 2013, all police forces have been required the Salvation Army for victim support, reported by the to return outcomes under Home Office Counting Rules regular parliamentary questions. for fraud and cyber crimes to the City of London police This is borne out by our comparative assessment. (which runs the Action Fraud service). The data for the The table below lists the PQs that have requested data 2013-14 financial year is currently being collated and about the number of potential victims referred to the analysed by City of London police, and will be made Salvation Army, and lists the number of Albanian available to police forces shortly. victims supported each month. Human Trafficking In total, this data indicates that there were 139 Albanian adult victims referred to the Salvation Army for victim Angie Bray: To ask the Secretary of State for the support in 2013 in England and Wales. Home Department what the nationality and gender This is lower than the 208 potential adult Albanian was of each suspected victim of trafficking referred to victims who were originally referred to the National the Trafficking Victim Support Scheme operated by the Referral Mechanism in 2013 from England and Wales, Salvation Army in February 2014; in which (a) region as reported in the NCA’s annual report. 719W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 720W

MP Hansard reference Number of Albanian victims supported

January Tony Baldry 14 February 2013, Official Report, 5 column 866W February Amber Rudd 11 March 2013, Official Report, 9 column 33W March Margot James 3 June 2013, Official Report, column 7 925W April Robert Buckland 3 June 2013, Official Report, column 14 927W May David Simpson 19 June 2013, Official Report, column 10 712W June Chris Ruane 10 July 2013, Official Report, column 9 276W July Fiona Bruce 6 February 2014, Official Report, 12 column 325W August Caroline Spelman 28 October 2013, Official Report, 9 column 358W September Peter Bone 14 October 2013, Official Report, 16 column 512W October Fiona Bruce 3 December 2013, Official Report, 23 column 613W November John Randall 9 January 2014, Official Report, 17 column 277W December Frank Field 14 January 2014, Official Report, 8 column 481W Total 139

Licensing Laws: Wales Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if she will include premises in Wales Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for the in the extension of licensing hours during FIFA World Home Department for what reasons premises in Wales Cup matches. [195385] have not been included in the extension of licensing hours during the FIFA World Cup. [195384] Norman Baker: The Government consulted publicly Norman Baker: The Government consulted publicly on whether licensing hours should be relaxed during the on whether licensing hours should be relaxed during the FIFA World Cup 2014. A range of representations were FIFA World Cup 2014. A range of representations were made both for and against the proposal. We received a made both for and against the proposal. We received a total of 1,468 responses to the online consultation. 77% total of 1,468 responses to the online consultation. 77% (1,095 respondents) believed that any national relaxation (1,095 respondents) believed that any national relaxation of licensing hours should apply to England and Wales. of licensing hours should apply to England and Wales. However, only 2% (25 respondents) identified themselves However, only 2% (25 respondents) identified themselves as living or working in Wales. as living or working in Wales. While a majority of Welsh respondents favoured a While a majority of Welsh respondents favoured a relaxation for England and Wales, there was a difference relaxation for England and Wales, there was a difference between English and Welsh respondents about how the between English and Welsh respondents about how the relaxation might be delivered. There was a clear majority relaxation might be delivered. There was a clear majority of Welsh respondents who favoured using the Temporary of Welsh respondents who favoured using the Temporary Event Notice system, rather than a blanket relaxation, Event Notice system, rather than a blanket relaxation, while of English respondents the majority (74%) favoured while of English respondents the majority (74%) favoured a blanket relaxation. This is consistent with what the a blanket relaxation. This is consistent with what the Government has opted to do: a national blanket relaxation Government has opted to do: a national blanket relaxation in England, with licensed premises able to use the in England, with licensed premises able to use the Temporary Event Notice system in Wales. Temporary Event Notice system in Wales. Section 172 of the Licensing Act 2003 allows the Section 172 of the Licensing Act 2003 allows the relevant Secretary of State to make an order relaxing relevant Secretary of State to make an order relaxing opening hours for licensed premises to mark occasions opening hours for licensed premises to mark occasions of ‘exceptional international, national or local significance’. of ‘exceptional international, national or local significance’. The Government considers that the England football The Government considers that the England football team’s participation in the FIFA World Cup 2014 is an team’s participation in the FIFA World Cup 2014 is an event of exceptional national significance in England. event of exceptional national significance in England. The Government has therefore decided not to include The Government has therefore decided not to include Wales in the relaxation of licensing hours for the FIFA Wales in the relaxation of licensing hours for the FIFA World Cup 2014. However, licensed premises in Wales World Cup 2014. However, licensed premises in Wales wishing to remain open beyond their licensed hours will wishing to remain open beyond their licensed hours will be able to do so by using the Temporary Event Notice be able to do so by using the Temporary Event Notice procedure. procedure. 721W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 722W

Policy NORTHERN IRELAND Female Genital Mutilation Mr O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department in what circumstances she uses a calculation of the (a) value of preventing a fatality, (b) Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for willingness to pay and (c) cost-per-quality adjusted life Northern Ireland what assessment she has made of the year approach to quantify the value of a policy intervention; prevalence of female genital mutilation in Northern what other tools she uses to quantify the benefit of a Ireland. [196576] policy intervention; and if she will make a statement. Mrs Villiers: I am not aware of any recent cases of [196465] female genital mutilation being reported in Northern Karen Bradley: The Green Book and associated Ireland. supplementary guidance is publicly available on the Female genital mutilation is a horrific form of child Treasury website. It sets out a range of approaches and abuse and violence against women and girls, and the methods that may be appropriate in a number of different Northern Ireland Executive has put in place a number appraisal circumstances. of safeguarding structures, policies and procedures designed to protect females. Tranquillisers The Civil Law Reform division of the Northern Jim Dobbin: To ask the Secretary of State for the Ireland Executive Department of Finance and Personnel Home Department what steps she is taking to tackle consulted on draft multi-agency practice guidelines on female genital mutilation earlier this year which were the street trade in prescription tranquilisers. [196615] based on the Home Office’s guidelines. Norman Baker: We are fully aware of the dangers of Foreign Investment in UK the misuse of prescription drugs such as tranquilisers, and law enforcement authorities have a robust range of Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for powers available to deal with those who engage in the Northern Ireland what steps she is taking in conjunction diversion and illicit trade of such drugs, particularly with the Northern Ireland Executive to increase foreign where those drugs are controlled under the Misuse of direct investment to Northern Ireland. [196579] Drugs Act 1971. Police forces use these powers to tackle the trade of such substances in their area, and action is Mrs Villiers: The successful G8 summit and follow-up also being taken to tackle illicit online sales. For instance, investment conference have highlighted Northern Ireland the Medicines Healthcare and Regulatory Products Agency as a great place in which to invest. works closely with Internet Service Providers to close I continue to work in partnership with the Northern down websites that are illicitly selling prescription drugs Ireland Executive Minister for Enterprise, Trade and to UK consumers. In June 2013, the Agency and Border Investment to attract foreign direct investment to Northern Force collaborated on Operation Pangea, an annual Ireland building on the success of the Northern Ireland international initiative which in the UK led to the Investment conference at which the Prime Minister seizure of 3.7 million doses of unlicensed medicine made the keynote address. worth approximately £12.2 million. On 7 November I co-hosted, with Arlene Foster, the As well as cracking down on the illicit supply of Northern Ireland Investment Seminar at Lancaster house prescription drugs, we are taking steps to increase our for a number of high commissioners and ambassadors understanding of the problem. This is why in September to explain the benefits for their respective countries of 2013 the Home Secretary asked the Advisory Council trade and investment in Northern Ireland. NIO and on the Misuse of Drugs to explore the potential for Invest NI officials are now meeting the trade and medical and social harms arising from the diversion commercial officers from the embassies with a view to and illicit supply of prescription drugs. I have asked inviting their respective ambassador to lead a trade that this work includes consideration of the prevalence delegation to Northern Ireland on a visit co-hosted by of misuse, user demographics, and the most common myself and the DETI Minister. drugs being misused. The Advisory Council is likely to The first two of these ambassadorial visits will take report later in the year. place in September and October and it is envisaged that other visits will take place over the coming 12 months. Arlene Foster has also invited me to participate with HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION her at SIAL 2014 which will take place in Paris in October. SIAL is the world’s premier food exhibition Stationery and will provide a good opportunity to promote the excellence of Northern Ireland produce to the international Mr Redwood: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, food industry. Sutherland and Easter Ross representing the House of Commons Commission, what levels of stock the House Freedom of Information of Commons Commission holds of (a) stationery, (b) printer cartridges, (c) treasury tags and other fasteners Mr Donaldson: To ask the Secretary of State for and (d) other office consumables. [196210] Northern Ireland how many requests under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 to her Department remained John Thurso: The House purchases stationery, printer unanswered (a) after 20 days and (b) after 90 days at cartridges, fasteners and other consumable items through 1 April 2014; and (i) how many and (ii) what the subject a contract providing a next day delivery service. No matter is of any such requests that remained unanswered central stocks are held. after 180 days at that date. [196717] 723W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 724W

Mrs Villiers: At 1 April 2014, there was one request I receive regular updates on this work and will attend remaining unanswered after 20 days and one request a number of events being planned to mark this important remaining unanswered after 90 days. There were no centenary over the course of the coming months. These requests remaining unanswered after 180 days at events will take place in Northern Ireland, the Republic 1 April 2014. of Ireland and France.

Northern Ireland Government PRIME MINISTER Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when she last held a meeting with the National Insurance Contributions Northern Ireland Minister for Social Development. John Mann: To ask the Prime Minister with reference [196658] to his letter of April 2014 sent to small businesses on Mrs Villiers: I was due to meet the Northern Ireland employment allowance, if he will clarify who was Social Development Minister in March but unfortunately meant by the use of we in the third paragraph; and the meeting had to be postponed. My private office has whether he has discussed the neutrality of such a phase suggested further dates to his and is waiting to hear with the Electoral Commission. [196673] back. The Prime Minister: As set out in the Programme for Government, this Government has a long-term plan to Trade Unions build a new economy, which supports sustainable growth and enterprise. The employment allowance was introduced Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for to promote both growth and employment, particularly Northern Ireland whether her Department has any among small businesses. I have had no discussion with plans to end the employee trade union membership the Electoral Commission on the letter. dues check-off system. [196770]

Mrs Villiers: My Department’s payroll services are SCOTLAND provided by the Ministry of Justice. My understanding is that they have no current plans to end the employee Stationery trade union membership dues check-off system. Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for World Expo: Italy Scotland what levels of stock his Department holds of (a) stationery, (b) printer cartridges, (c) treasury tags Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for and other fasteners and (d) other office consumables. Northern Ireland what discussions she has had with [196216] UK Trade & Investment on ensuring that Northern David Mundell: In recent years, as e-communication Ireland is represented in planning for the UK pavilion has increased, the expenditure on stationery items has at Milan Expo 2015. [196580] decreased. This coupled with rigorous control measures, has enabled the Scotland Office to maintain a low level Mrs Villiers: UKTI and Invest NI have a close working of stock of (a) stationery, (b) printer cartridges, (c) relationship and cooperate whenever possible to attract treasury tags and other fasteners and (d) other office trade and investment to Northern Ireland. consumables. I am advised that UKTI has already initiated discussions with Invest NI on Northern Ireland’s representation Trade Unions there. Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for World War I: Anniversaries Scotland whether his Department has any plans to end the employee trade union membership dues check-off system. [196771] Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what recent meetings she has had on David Mundell: The Scotland Office does not employ First World War centenary commemorations in staff directly; all staff that join do so on an assignment, Northern Ireland. [196659] loan or secondment from other Government bodies who remain responsible for all employment matters Mrs Villiers: The Northern Ireland Office plays a including payroll deductions for trade union subscriptions. co-ordination role with the aim of ensuring that First World War commemorations are implemented in Northern Ireland in a manner which promotes reconciliation and TREASURY enhances prospects for a peaceful, shared future. Officials from my Department sit on the Department Capital Gains Tax for Culture, Media and Sport Programme Board for First World War Centenary Commemorations. They Mr Redwood: To ask the Chancellor of the also have regular contact with officials in the British Exchequer (1) what the reasons are for the difference in embassy Dublin, the Irish Government and the Northern the most recent forecast capital gains tax revenue for Ireland Executive, and sit on the Northern Ireland First 2013-14 and the forecast made in Budget 2013; [195688] World War Centenary Committee chaired by the right (2) what the reasons were for the fall in capital gains hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson). tax revenue in 2012-13; [195715] 725W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 726W

(3) what the reasons are for forecast capital gains tax Mr Gauke: The Government takes the enforcement revenue in 2013-14 being below that of 2011-12. of national minimum wage (NMW) very seriously and [195716] HMRC enforce the NMW legislation on behalf of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS). Mr Gauke: The details of the forecasts are set out in It does that by investigating all complaints made about the Office for Budget Responsibility’s Economic and employers suspected of not paying the minimum wage, Fiscal Outlook publications. The Office for Budget in addition, carrying out targeted enforcement where it Responsibility was created in 2010 and provides the identifies a high risk of non-payment of NMW across authoritative and independent forecasts for the UK’s the whole of the UK. economy and public finances. HMRC has an NMW enforcement team based in http://budgetresponsibility.org.uk/category/publications/ Belfast, and that team investigates all complaints received by the Pay and Work Rights helpline relating to Northern Employee Ownership Ireland-based employers alongside employers who are based and trading in the wider UK. The NMW Belfast team works closely with other Northern Ireland enforcement Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Chancellor of the agencies including the Gangmasters Licensing Authority, Exchequer pursuant to the answer of 7 April 2014, Home Office Immigration and Enforcement and Official Report, column 18W, on employee ownership Department of Employment and Learning. (1) if he will make an estimate of the total value of shares awarded under employee shareholder agreements since 1 September 2013; [196169] Stamp Duty Land Tax (2) for what reason the details of the total value of shares awarded under employee shareholder agreements Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Chancellor of the since 1 September 2013 are not available; [196168] Exchequer if he will take steps to reduce the amount of (3) for what reason the details of the Exchequer stamp duty paid by first-time home buyers. [196306] impact of the tax rules for the shares awarded under employee shareholder agreements since 1 September Mr Gauke: The stamp duty land tax relief for first 2013 are not available. [196170] time buyers in existence between March 2010 and March (4) if he will make an estimate of the Exchequer 2012 was found by HMRC to be ineffective in increasing impact of the tax rules for shares awarded under employee the number of first time buyers entering the market. shareholder agreements since 1 September 2013. The Government is instead taking other steps to [196171] support those wishing to purchase a home, such as the Help to Buy and NewBuy schemes. Mr Gauke: Employers are not required to provide details of any shares awarded under employee shareholder agreements to HM Revenue and Customs until they Tax Allowances: Pensions submit their annual employment-related securities return for 2013-14. No details or estimates of the total value of shares awarded under employee shareholder agreements Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Chancellor of the since 1 September 2013 are currently available. Exchequer what estimate he has made of the number of men and women who make use of the non-earnings Estimates of the Exchequer impact of the capital pension contribution limit; and if he will assess the gains tax exemption and the income tax and national potential effects of increasing that limit on couples insurance treatment of shares awarded under employee saving together for retirement. [196630] shareholder agreements in tax years to 2017-18 can be found at: Mr Gauke: As shown in HMRC’s published statistics http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/tiin/emp-shareholder-status.pdf (Table PEN3 available here: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ Inheritance Tax attachment_data/file/259967/pen3.pdf in 2011-12 around 20,000 unemployed adults made or Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Chancellor of the received contributions into their personal pensions. 6,000 Exchequer if he will estimate the cost to the Exchequer of these individuals made use of the non-earnings of raising the £325,000 inheritance tax threshold to (a) pension contribution limit of £3,600 including basic £1 million and (b) £500,000 in each of the next five rate tax relief. financial years. [195626] A further 10,000 children, 10,000 individuals in full time education and 10,000 carers made or received Mr Gauke: This Government has no current plans to contributions into their personal pensions. Of these, increase the inheritance tax threshold. around a quarter made use of the non-earnings pension contribution limit. Minimum Wage: Northern Ireland Of the individuals mentioned above who made use of the non-earnings pension contribution limit in 2011-12, Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer around two thirds were female. what steps HM Revenue and Customs is taking to The Government has made no assessment of the tackle cases of employees in Northern Ireland being effects of increasing the limit on couples saving together paid below the minimum wage. [196655] for retirement but keeps all tax policies under review. 727W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 728W

Taxation The risk to the tax revenue by traders operating SIVA is potentially very large as the period between the tax Robert Halfon: To ask the Chancellor of the due being deferred and being collected by HMRC may Exchequer what recent discussions he has had on result in a failure to pay. The setting of the SIVA approval criteria has to strike a balance between ensuring combining national insurance and income tax. [196602] the trade receive the maximum benefit from the scheme, while at the same time protecting the revenue. Mr Gauke: As set out at autumn statement 2012, the Government will wait for further progress on planned Businesses have to demonstrate ongoing compliance operational changes to the tax system before formally with the SIVA requirements. The SIVA team monitor consulting on the operational integration of income tax this through internal systems, including any outstanding and NICs. debts or Time-to Pay agreements requested. When they identify a business experiencing difficulties, they advise Treasury Ministers and officials have meetings with a them of the potential impact on their SIVA approval. wide variety of organisations in the public and private Warning letters are issued by the team to businesses sectors as part of the process of policy development who fail to comply and only if there is evidence of and delivery. continued non-compliance is the approval removed. Details of ministerial and permanent secretary meetings The current procedures provide an appropriate balance with external organisations on departmental business between trade facilitation and protection of the revenue. are published on a quarterly basis and are available at: http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/minister_hospitality.htm WALES Taxation: Business Trade Unions

Simon Kirby: To ask the Chancellor of the Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for Exchequer what steps he has taken to reduce taxation Wales whether his Department has any plans to end the on small businesses; and if he will make a statement. employee trade union membership dues check-off [196013] system. [196774] Stephen Crabb: The Wales Office is not an employer Mr Gauke: The Government is committed to make in its own right. As the Ministry of Justice is the main the UK the best place in Europe to start, finance and employer of staff at the Wales Office, I refer the hon. grow a business and has focused a number of measures Member to the answer given by the Under-Secretary of specifically on small businesses. State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for North These include a £2,000 employment allowance available West Cambridgeshire (Mr Vara), on 8 April 2014, Official from April 2014 to support small businesses aspiring to Report, column 172W. hire their first employee or expand their work force; and, as set out in the autumn statement 2013, a £1 billion package of business rates measures, 90% of WORK AND PENSIONS which is going to businesses occupying small premises. Atos Healthcare The Government is also increasing the payable R&D tax credit for loss-making SMEs from 11% to 14.5 from Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Work April 2014, providing particular support for early-stage and Pensions if he will publish his Department’s risk companies and start-ups, who face the greatest risks assessment of the transfer of his Department’s contract and barriers to R&D investment. with Atos Healthcare for provision of work capability Fuel costs are also significant for many small businesses assessments to a new provider; and what steps he is so the Government has implemented the longest duty taking to mitigate the risks identified in that assessment. freeze for over 20 years. In total, by 2015-16 a small [195735] business with a van will have saved £1,300 and a haulier £21,000. Mike Penning: The transition from Atos Healthcare to the new provider in 2015 provides a further opportunity Chris Leslie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to improve the service the Department offers to claimants if he will take steps to improve support for small and and customers. The Department will manage the transition medium-sized enterprises which are in need of short- carefully to mitigate the impact on claimants and customers term assistance and flexibility through improved and to further mitigate any risks the new provider will partnership working between the HM Revenue and initially use elements of the Atos infrastructure already Custom’s (HMRC) simplified import VAT accounting in place, including IT, Estate and Atos employees (subject duty deferment team and the HMRC debt to TUPE). management and time-to-pay teams; and if he will The priority for the new provider will be to deliver the make a statement. [196640] best possible service for claimants, increase the volume of assessments carried out and reduce waiting times. Mr Gauke: The Simplified Import VAT Accounting Children (SIVA)scheme is a trade facilitation measure that reduces compliance costs for legitimate traders through the Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for removal of the requirement to provide a guarantee to Work and Pensions which Minister in his Department secure import VAT paid through the duty deferment has responsibility for assessing the effect of his Department’s scheme. policies on the welfare of children. [196502] 729W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 730W

Esther McVey: Each of the Department’s Ministers is The Pensions Regulator estimates that there will be in responsible for assessing the effect of their policies on the range of 30,000 to 35,000 employers across the UK the welfare of children. commencing their automatic enrolment duties from 1 April 2014 to 1 April 2015. This is an approximate Employment Support Allowance range; several factors affect these numbers. For example, an employer may bring their staging date forward, an Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for employer may cease trading, or an employer who has a Work and Pensions how many times he has written to number of affiliated employers in their group may work programme providers or their representative body choose to stage them all in the same period. about the progress of employment support allowance The Pensions Regulator has published a staging forecast claimants since June 2011. [196105] which can be found at: Esther McVey: It is not possible to separately identify http://www.thepensionsregulator.gov.uk/docs/automatic- enrolment-employer-staging-forecast.pdf the written correspondence from the Secretary of State, to work programme providers or their representative Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Work body about the progress of employment support allowance and Pensions what steps he is taking to ensure that the claimants since June 2011 other than at disproportionate staging dates for automatic enrolment for workplace costs. pensions are being effectively communicated to Jobseeker’s Allowance businesses in Skipton and Ripon constituency. [196671]

Mr Andrew Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for Steve Webb: The Pensions Regulator (TPR) has Work and Pensions what proportion of jobseeker’s responsibility for educating and enabling employers in allowance claimants were subject to sanctions in each order to maximise compliance. TPR is writing to employers county in the most recent period for which figures are 12 months and one month prior to their staging date to available. [196651] alert them to their new responsibilities. Where an employer provides an e-mail address to Esther McVey: The information requested is not readily TPR they will also receive a series of e-mails informing available and could be provided only at disproportionate them what stage they should be at and signposting cost. guidance and tools that have been provided by the Information on JSA sanctions, including a range of Regulator. This includes an interactive planning tool to geographical breakdowns is published and available at: assist employers in getting ready, a staging date tool to find out your staging date, and detailed guides. They https://stat-xplore.dwp.gov.uk/ have also established a customer support centre for JSA claimant count data by geographical area is employers to discuss any questions they may have. published and available at: An advertising campaign aimed at employers has https://www.nomisweb.co.uk/ also been used to raise awareness and guide employers Occupational Pensions: Skipton to the Regulator’s website to help them in their preparations.

Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Pensions: Females and Pensions (1) how many and what proportion of businesses in Skipton and Ripon constituency have not Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for yet met their staging date for automatic enrolment for Work and Pensions what steps he is taking to increase workplace pensions; [196596] understanding of pensions and retirement planning (2) how many businesses in Skipton and Ripon amongst women. [196632] constituency will be issued with staging dates for automatic enrolment between 1 April 2014 and 1 April Steve Webb: The Department is taking a range of 2015. [196597] steps to address understanding of pensions and retirement planning, including amongst women. Steve Webb: The information is not available in the The DWP is working closely with the Money Advice format requested. Service (MAS), the government body with responsibility This is because staging data are often based on details for improving the British public’s financial capability, such as the address of an employer’s head office, or including tackling the knowledge gaps which can inhibit their admin hub. It therefore does not necessarily reflect individuals from saving into pensions. where the workers are based e.g. an employer might The Department is facilitating joint-working between have a head office in London but have staff based all its information services and those of The Pensions over the country. Advisory Service (TPAS), which is playing an important The Pensions Regulator publishes monthly the volume role in supporting individuals who are automatically of employers that have registered that they have met enrolled, and MAS. The DWP will also support MAS their duties along with the volume of workers automatically in increasing its reach, including through contact channels enrolled. As at 31 March 2014, 10,817 employers have with DWP customers. registered with The Pensions Regulator that they have As part of automatic enrolment, to encourage women met the duties and enrolled more than 3.24 million workers. to continue to save in a workplace pension we are Further information can be found at: running an awareness campaign with supporting http://www.thepensionsregulator.gov.uk/docs/automatic- information that emphasises the importance of saving enrolment-monthly-registration-report.pdf for retirement and outlines the benefits of saving in a 731W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 732W workplace pension. This reaches women via the use of Alternatively an allegation can be made using an online appropriate media channels and by working in partnership facility, by letter, or by telephoning a Jobcentre Plus with trusted brands. office. We are creating a simpler state pension so that everybody We recently ran a communications campaign pilot to can know both what counts towards their state pension test the effectiveness of communications in reducing and how much they can expect to receive. We will take fraud and error and we are looking to expand this account of the different ways in which men and women activity. Our communication campaign aims to challenge are affected by the reforms in our communications and change attitudes and behaviours towards benefit approach. Our strategy includes using partnerships with fraud. This includes improving awareness of the need media outlets most likely to reach these women to make for claimants to report changes in their circumstances them aware of the changes. We will evaluate the impact and encouraging the general public to report potential of our communications to make sure we are reaching benefit fraud. women to increase their awareness and understanding.

Policy State Retirement Pensions: Females

Mr O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions in which circumstances he uses a calculation Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Work of the (a) value of preventing a fatality, (b) willingness and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 7 April 2014, to pay and (c) cost-per-quality adjusted life year approach Official Report, columns 103-4W, on state retirement to quantify the value of a policy intervention; what pensions, if he will assess whether a woman born on other tools he uses to quantify the benefit of a policy 6 April 1981 who was in continuous employment from intervention; and if he will make a statement. [196606] her 21st birthday until her state pension age as derived in line with the practice outlined in the Pensions Bill, Esther McVey: The Green Book and associated had worked consistently in contracted-in employment supplementary guidance is publicly available on the for 30 hours a week in a role which paid the national Treasury website. It sets out a range of approaches and minimum wage, had average female life expectancy, in methods that may be appropriate in a number of different line with the most recent ONS population projections, appraisal circumstances. and was subject to any other assumptions used in the impact assessment which accompanied the Pensions Remploy Bill, would receive a different level of pension at the point of retirement under the single tier mechanism than they Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for would have expected under the current pension system; Work and Pensions what happens to a Remploy worker and what the difference in the level of pension would be. personal budget if the full amount is not used by the [196652] individual within 18 months. [196631] Steve Webb: The state pension reforms radically simplify Mike Penning: Personal budgets are an important state pension provision, by replacing the current, two-tiered part of the £8 million People Help and Support Package pension system with a simpler single-tier state pension (PHSP) which was not available for those affected by for people reaching state pension age after 6 April 2016. the 2008 Modernisation Plan. Personal budgets provide additional support where other sources of funding are The majority of people reaching state pension age in unavailable. the 40 years after the new state pension is implemented will have a higher pension income overall over the There is no specific funding allocation for personal course of their retirement as a result of the reforms. The budgets within the £8 million PHSP package and the new state pension will also underpin automatic enrolment, budget for each former Remploy disabled employee is which will see around 9 million people saving more, or allocated based on individual need. saving for the first time, into a workplace pension. We anticipate that all funding for the PHSP package The Pensions Bill provides for the Government to will be utilised by the time the last People Help and carry out a review of state pension age every Parliament. Support Package period is completed. It is our intention that state pension ages will only be Latest figures as of 18 April 2014 show 1,516 disabled finalised once someone is within 10 years of their former Remploy workers have chosen to work with our proposed state pension age. Because this date will be Personal Case Workers to find another job and 727 are affected by future changes in longevity, at this point we in work. cannot say with certainty what will be the state pension age for people born in the 1980s. In addition, any Social Security Benefits: Fraud calculation on pension entitlement would also depend on decisions that have not yet been taken, including the Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for starting rate for the single tier. Furthermore, future Work and Pensions what steps he is taking to make it state pension levels are determined by up-rating decisions easier to report benefit fraud allegations. [196633] taken by Governments on a year-by-year basis. Therefore, while we have forecast the possible impacts of the new Esther McVey: The public can report benefit fraud by system at a population level, it is not possible to give telephoning the National Benefit Fraud Hotline which definitive statements of the future state pension entitlements is a confidential free phone service that anyone can use for individuals who do not yet have a set state pension anonymously to report their suspicions. The service is age, whether under the current system or under the widely used handling over 350,000 referrals in 2013/14. single tier pension 733W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 734W

For the first few cohorts of people reaching state Museums and Galleries pension age from April 2016, the Government will provide a statement service to help them plan for retirement. Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (1) how many paintings, artefacts and other objects were lent from the collections of grant-in-aid funded national museums and galleries CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT to other grant-in-aid funded national museums and Advertising galleries in each year since 2010-11; [196682] (2) how many paintings, artefacts and other objects Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, were lent from the collections of grant-in-aid funded Media and Sport if he will bring forward legislative national museums and galleries to regional museums proposals to give the Advertising Standards Agency and galleries in each year since 2010-11. [196689] the power to fine advertisers for serious breaches of the UK Code of Broadcast Advertising. [196541] Mr Vaizey: The Department for Culture, Media and Sport has collected and published the following data Mr Vaizey: Ofcom already has the power to fine about the number of venues in the United Kingdom to advertisers for serious breaches of the UK Code of which the sponsored national museums have lent objects Broadcast Advertising. The ASA is responsible for from their collections. administering the Code of Broadcast Advertising, but Number of UK loan venues is able to refer broadcasters to Ofcom for further action, Institution 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 including imposing fines, if needed. There are no plans to change this system. British Museum 178 162 169 Imperial War Museum 90 376 104 Consultants National Gallery 17 35 35 National Maritime Museum 71 74 81 National Museums 193 228 239 Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for Liverpool Culture, Media and Sport pursuant to the answer of 3 Science Museum Group1 164 185 240 April 2014, Official Report, column 145W on consultants, National Portrait Gallery 133 118 118 how much spending on consultancy was spent on (a) Natural History Museum 182 131 32 Olympic delivery, (b) the broadband delivery programme Royal Armouries 107 106 120 and (c) other consultancy spending. [196665] Sir John Soane’s Museum 7 3 4 Tate Gallery 153 147 128 Mr Vaizey: DCMS has spent the following amounts Victoria and Albert 241 262 242 on consultancy services since 2010-11: Museum Wallace Collection2 n/a n/a n/a £ 1 From 2011-12, the total includes figures for the Museum of Science and Financial year 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 2013-14 Industry in Manchester, following its merger with the Science Museum Group. 2 The Wallace Collection cannot lend items under terms of its bequest. Cost Directly Related to The 101,712 103,293 92,753 — Olympics BDUK Consultancy Costs — 2,041,495 3,983,283 3,304,915 Other Consultancy 247,860 133,771 297,835 109,536 FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Total 349,572 2,278,559 4,373,871 3,414,451 Burma

The figures for 2013-14 are currently unaudited. The Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for figures now include the expenditure on external legal Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he advice related to programme support, but excludes spending has received on whether the government of Burma plans on legal services from the Treasury Solicitor and the to open a country office of the UN High Commissioner providers of recruitment services. This has been done in for Human Rights in that country. [196636] order to arrive at figures that more directly relate to the providers of consultancy. Mr Swire: It has been over 18 months since President Thein Sein committed to opening an in-country Office Heritage Lottery Fund for the High Commissioner for Human Rights. This would allow for more constructive relations between the Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for international community and the Government on human Culture, Media and Sport pursuant to the answer of rights. Most recently, the British ambassador raised the 10 April 2014, Official Report, column 311W, on public issue with the Burmese Foreign Minister on 31 March. expenditure, what the (a) actual 2010-11 income and We continue to call on the Government to publish a (b) projected 2015-16 income is for the Heritage timeline for the opening of the Office, with a mandate Lottery Fund. [196718] that includes monitoring and technical assistance.

Mr Vaizey: In 2010-11, the Heritage Lottery Fund’s Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for net income from the national lottery (after its contribution Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment to the Olympics had been deducted) was £217 million. he has made of the effectiveness of steps taken by the Based on the current level of ticket sales, HLF income Burmese Government to (a) prevent sexual violence from the lottery in 2015-16 is estimated to be £360 and (b) end impunity for sexual offences allegedly million. committed by the Burmese military. [196637] 735W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 736W

Mr Swire: During his visit to the UK last year, UK Trade & Investment (UKTI) has a presence in 23 President Thein Sein welcomed the initiative of the Commonwealth markets, accounting for approximately Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth 21% of UKTI overseas headcount. Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), on preventing sexual violence in conflict (PSVI). We continue to encourage Burma to join 146 nations and endorse the declaration on PSVI. The launch in October 2013 of the Burmese Government’s United Nations National Strategic Plan for the Advancement of Women (NSPAW) committed Burma Mark Hendrick: To ask the Secretary of State for “to develop and strengthen laws, systems, structures and practices Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much the to eliminate all forms of Violence Against Women and Girls and UK contributed towards the funding of the United to respond to the needs of women and girls affected by violence”. Nations and International Monetary Fund in (a) We are clear, however, that all of these steps need to 2011, (b) 2012 and (c) 2013. [196109] be accompanied by actions leading to real progress in Burma. We remain concerned by continued reports of Mr Lidington:The UK makes numerous contributions sexual violence against women, including reports of to the many different parts of the UN system and crimes committed by members of the Burmese military. UN-led activities. Payments come from a wide range of We regularly lobby the Burmese Government on the British Government Departments. Our two largest assessed, rights of women, particularly on preventing sexual violence or mandatory, payments are for the UN Regular Budget in conflict areas. We continue to make clear that where and the UN Peacekeeping Budget. serious crimes have been committed, those who have perpetrated them should be held accountable for their The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) pays actions. I raised the issue of sexual violence directly the UK’s share of the UN Regular Budget, which with senior Ministers, the commander in chief and the covers core UN Secretariat costs and the UN’s political northern commander during my visit to Burma in January. activities. During the last three calendar years, the UK More recently, the Secretary of State for Foreign and made assessed contributions to the UN Regular Budget Commonwealth Affairs raised the issue in a call with in US dollars as follows: the Burmese Foreign Minister on 28 April. $ million China 2011 155.3 2012 156.1 Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reasons the 2013 132.0 Government received from the Chinese Government for the cancellation of the UK-China human rights The UN Peacekeeping Budget follows the UN’s financial dialogue in April 2014; and when the Government was year (July to June). The UK’s assessed contributions in informed of that cancellation. [196634] the last four UN financial years in US dollars is shown in the following table. Mr Swire: The dialogue was originally scheduled for 15-16 April, but China informed us of its decision to $ million postpone on 7 April. An open exchange of views on human rights is in the interests of both sides, and is an 2010-11 602.8 important part of our bilateral relationship. We are 2011-12 576.4 working with the Chinese Government to reschedule 2012-13 477.1 the dialogue as soon as possible. 2013-14 476.6

Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he expects The UK, typically through the relevant lead Whitehall the next UK-China human rights dialogue to take Department in the appropriate field, also makes many place. [196635] other substantial payments into the UN system. For UN specialised agencies, these are mostly voluntary Mr Swire: We consider the human rights dialogue to contributions, with some assessed contributions e.g. for be an important part of our bilateral relationship with core costs. Additionally, there are many significant voluntary China. We are working with the Chinese Government contributions to UN funds and programmes and other to reschedule the dialogue as soon as possible. UN bodies depending on how they support UK objectives and priorities. The Department for International Commonwealth Development is the largest contributor of voluntary funding, of all British Government Departments. Mr Robin Walker: To ask the Secretary of State for The UK does not have an annual subscription to the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what proportion International Monetary Fund (IMF) and does not of the export and trade promotion work of UK Trade contribute to its administration costs. These are financed and Investment is focused on Commonwealth out of the IMF’s own revenue. As per the annual countries. [195635] accounts of the National Loan Fund, published to Parliament, the Government’s quota subscription and Michael Fallon: I have been asked to reply on behalf lending to the IMF at the end of each financial year is of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. shown in the following table. 737W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 738W

Military Decorations £ million As at 31 March each Caroline Nokes: To ask the Secretary of State for year Quota Lending Total Defence what military medals have received Royal 2011 10,581 1,109 11,690 approval following the Honours and Decorations Committee meeting in January 2014. [196550] 2012 10,391 2,030 12,421 2013 10,638 2,320 12,958 Mr Maude: I have been asked to reply on behalf of Cabinet Office. Uzbekistan An announcement will be made once the full set of reviews is complete and has been approved. Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether his Department has made any recent representations to the Government of Uzbekistan regarding the imprisonment ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS of the journalist, Salidzhon Abdurakhmanov. [196144] Fisheries Mr Lidington: We, along with our European partners, have raised the case of Mr Abdurakhmanov with the Uzbek authorities at ministerial and official level on Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for several occasions. The Senior Minister of State, my Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what discussions noble Friend the right hon. Baroness Warsi, raised this on IUU fishing took place at the Agriculture and issue with the Uzbek Foreign Minister when he visited Fisheries Council meeting in Brussels on 24 March London last November. Our embassy in Tashkent is in 2014. [196598] contact with the Uzbek human rights organisation, Ezgulik, which visited Mr Abdurakhmanov in custody George Eustice: The Council of Ministers on 24 in January. Baroness Warsi discussed a range of human March agreed to list Belize, Guinea and Cambodia as rights issues, including freedom of expression, with non-cooperating third countries, acting insufficiently in Ministers and senior officials when she visited Uzbekistan fighting against illegal, unreported and unregulated earlier this month. (IUU) fishing. Under the EU IUU Regulation, any Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) reporting imports into the EU of any fisheries products caught by has consistently highlighted our concerns about freedom these flag state vessels will be banned. In addition, of the press and harassment of journalists in Uzbekistan. Ministers discussed the proposed review of the IUU Uzbekistan remains on the list of Countries of Concern Regulation and the Commission confirmed its intention in the FCO’s annual Human Rights and Democracy to undertake the review next year. Report, reflecting long-standing concerns about the overall human rights situation in Uzbekistan. Our embassy Litter in Tashkent regularly raises these issues with the Uzbek authorities and funds projects that support good governance Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for and human rights. We also continue to encourage further Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what comparative progress towards full implementation of Uzbekistan’s assessment he has made of the performance of programmes international human rights commitments. in the UK and other EU countries which aim to reduce litter; and if he will make a statement. [196504]

Dan Rogerson: The Government has not carried out DEFENCE any comparative assessment of the performance of litter reduction programmes in the UK and the rest of Armed Forces: Mortgages the EU.

Jack Lopresti: To ask the Secretary of State for Policy Defence what steps he is taking to ensure that mortgage lenders are aware of the Armed Forces Help to Buy Mr O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for scheme. [196660] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs in what circumstances he uses a calculation of the (a) value of Mr Dunne: As announced by the Secretary of State preventing a fatality, (b) willingness to pay and (c) for Defence, my right hon. Friend the Member for cost-per-quality adjusted life year approach to quantify Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr Hammond), in September the value of a policy intervention; what other tools he 2013, the Forces Help to Buy scheme was launched on 1 uses to quantify the benefit of a policy intervention; April 2014. The Department has worked closely with and if he will make a statement. [196463] the Council of Mortgage Lenders throughout the development and roll-out of the scheme. There have Dan Rogerson: The Green Book and associated also been consultations with a range of other bodies, supplementary guidance is publicly available on the such as the Building Societies Association, the Association Treasury website. It sets out a range of approaches and of Mortgage Intermediaries and the Financial Conduct methods that may be appropriate in a number of different Authority, as well as with individual mortgage lenders. appraisal circumstances. 739W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 740W

HEALTH NHS trusts are not funded directly by the Secretary of State, from sums voted by Parliament. NHS trusts are semi-autonomous organisations whose Ambulance Services: East Midlands income derives from the provision of services, formerly to PCTs, now to NHS England and CCGs, through Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what might be described as trading activity. how much grant his Department has supplied (a) in The NHS trust regime has similarities to the regime cash terms and (b) in real terms in 2010 prices to the for Government Trading Funds, where expenditure for East Midlands Ambulance Service in each financial Government activity is met from income from third year since 2010-11. [196620] parties, rather than direct funding from resources voted to the Department. Dr Poulter: National health service trusts do not The following table, taken directly from East Midlands receive funding directly from the Department of Health. Ambulance Service NHS Trust year-end accounts, In contrast to primary care trusts (PCTs) (and now summarises the income received in the year 2010-11 to NHS England and clinical commissioning groups (CCGs)), 2012-13.

1. In cash terms: Nominal Value Per Annual Accounts £000 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13

Revenue From Patient Care Activities Strategic Health Authorities 979 0 0 NHS Trusts 386 90 691 Primary Care Trusts—Non Tariff 153,962 163,414 147,698 Foundation Trusts 425 439 104 Department of Health 3,510 93 748 Non-NHS: Other 741 1,156 574 Total Revenue from Patient Care Activities 160,003 165,192 149,815

Other Operating Revenue: Recoveries in respect employee benefits 0 386 298 Education, Training and Research 269 1,532 1,541 Receipt of grants/donations for capital acquisitions 51 0 0 Income generation 1,163 957 1,190 Rental Revenue from Operating Leases 95 8 4 Other Revenue 62 1,449 2,181

Total Other Operating Revenue 1,640 4,341 5,226

Total Operating Revenue 161,643 169,533 155,041

2. In real terms: Restated at 2012-13 Prices £000 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13

Revenue From Patient Care Activities Strategic Health Authorities 1013 0 0 NHS Trusts 399 91 691 Primary Care Trusts- Non Tariff 159,259 165,297 147,698 Foundation Trusts 440 444 104 Department of Health 3,631 94 748 Non-NHS: Other 766 1,169 574 Total Revenue from Patient Care Activities 165,508 167,095 149,815

Other Operating Revenue Recoveries in respect employee benefits 0 390 298 Education, Training and Research 278 1,550 1,541 Receipt of grants/donations for capital acquisitions 53 0 0 Income generation 1,203 968 1,190 Rental Revenue from Operating Leases 98 8 4 Other Revenue 64 1,466 2,181

Total Other Operating Revenue 1,696 4,382 5,214

Total Operating Revenue 167,204 171,477 155,029 741W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 742W

Arthritis CCGs are autonomous organisations, whose strength lies in their clinical leadership and freedom to commission Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health those services that deliver outcomes that are both clinically what information his Department holds on whether effective and cost effective for local populations. drinking milk reduces the development of arthritis. NHS England, through its local area teams, uses the [195891] CCG Assurance Framework to assess whether CCGs are meeting their statutory duty to deliver continuous Jane Ellison: Milk and dairy products, such as cheese overall improvement in the health outcomes of local and yoghurt, are good sources of protein and calcium. populations. Integral to the assurance assessment is Public Health England does not hold and is not consideration of a range of timely indicators, quality aware of data showing that drinking milk reduces the metrics and other outcomes measures to make an overall development of arthritis. assessment of progress towards delivering improved Results from a recent study suggest that frequent outcomes. This includes the CCG OIS. milk consumption maybe associated with slowing the progression of knee osteoarthritis for women, but not Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health for men. The study did not consider whether milk could what steps (a) his Department and (b) NHS England reduce the development of arthritis in general, but are taking to support NHS staff to deliver an improved examined a single aspect of osteoarthritis progression experience of care for cancer patients. [195758] in the knee joint of people who already had the condition. An important limitation of this study is that it was Jane Ellison: Through the Mandate, we have asked observational. The slower progression of osteoarthritis NHS England to deliver continued improvements in observed in women who drank more milk could have relation to the experience of care, including cancer care, been influenced by other factors. and Health Education England to ensure that current and future national health service and public health Better Care Fund staff receive high quality education, training and development to enable them to deliver the highest possible Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Health quality of prevention and care for patients and the what the reasons are for changes in the geographic public now and in the future. criteria for Better Care Fund submissions. [196624] NHS England’s business plan focuses on the fundamental Norman Lamb: As set out in the NHS England cultural change to put people at the centre of the NHS. Planning guidance published in December 2013, local In 2014-15 it is overseeing a programme to improve councils and clinical commissioning groups must agree cancer patient experience and is currently undertaking a Better Care Fund plan with its local health and a review of its insight programme and strategy. By wellbeing board. working with NHS Improving Quality, Macmillan and other partners, with oversight from NHS England and The requirement that Better Care Fund plans must the Cancer Patient Experience Advisory Group, align to the 151 health and wellbeing board areas has improvements will be made at provider level. In particular, not changed since the Better Care Fund policy was the cancer patient experience survey will be a key tool to announced following the 2013 spending review and the deliver this. publication of the draft and final planning guidance. This month, NHS England is introducing the Staff Cancer Friends and Family Test for all NHS trusts in England, as research shows the strong link between levels of staff Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health engagement and quality of patient experience. what assessment his Department has made of the role Health Education England, as the national leadership of the Clinical Commissioning Group Outcomes body for education, training and development of the Indicator Set in the assurance and planning process for health work force will ensure that the right numbers of cancer services and care. [195757] health professionals are trained—with the right skills and behaviours—to support delivery of high quality Jane Ellison: The Clinical Commissioning Group service and health improvement across England. Outcomes Indicator Set (CCG OIS) is a tool that supports commissioners to drive improvement and set priorities. The response to the Francis Inquiry sets out a wide The CCG OIS, together with a range of other measures, range of measures to create a culture of openness where plays an important role in helping clinical commissioning staff are supported to deliver compassionate care and groups (CCGs) to understand: how local populations improve patient safety. For example, 10,000 nurses and are engaging with local health services; what their outcomes midwives will have taken part in a new leadership are; and to identify priorities for improvement. programme by April 2015 which is focused on championing compassionate; patient-centred care. The 2014-15 CCG OIS contains a range of indicators to support commissioners to understand key local issues in relation to cancer survival and early diagnosis including: Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps he is taking to ensure that patients have Under 75 mortality rate from cancer; access to continuous innovation in oncology after the Cancer: diagnosis via emergency routes; Cancer Drugs Fund expires in 2016. [R] [196684] Cancer: record of stage at diagnosis; Cancer: early detection; Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for Lung cancer: record of stage at diagnosis; and Health what plans he has to extend the Cancer Drug Breast cancer: mortality. Fund beyond 2016. [196757] 743W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 744W

Norman Lamb: We have committed to continuing the GPs have completed the four modules of the online Cancer Drugs Fund until the end of March 2016. We learning tool for GPs on late diagnosis. [196754] will consider carefully with NHS England how, in the longer term, we can support patients in accessing the Jane Ellison: The requested information is not centrally cancer drugs that could benefit them at a cost that collected. represents value to the national health service. However, evaluation reports provided by British Medical Journal Learning throughout 2013 included information Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for on total number of users who accessed the online Health pursuant to the Answer of 7 April 2014, learning modules and a breakdown of users by profession. Official Report, columns 33-4W, on cancer, how many The information is presented in the following table:

Total number of users who access the e-learning modules and breakdown of users by profession Users who categorised themselves as GP Users who categorised (principal/partner; themselves as doctor/ salaried/non-principal/ BMJ Learning online tool Date report received Total number of users physician locum)

Module 1: Tackling late diagnosis of cancer May 2013 1,568 1,046 621

Module 2a: Diagnosing osteosarcoma and brain August 2013 298 152 68 tumours in children

Module 2b: Diagnosing. osteosarcoma and brain September 2013 390 203 92 tumours in children— communication skills

Module 3: Risk assessment tools November 2013 1,463 1,263 475 Module 4: Cancer Pathway and the role of primary November 2013 1,507 1,350 596 care Notes: 1. Users are able to choose more than one ’category’ when registering, so number by profession may be greater than the total number of users. 2. Most relevant categories of profession have been extracted from the report for this question.

Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) what recent assessment he has made of the Health pursuant to the answer of 7 April 2014, Official psychological support available to people with cystic Report, columns 33-34W, on cancer, when he expects fibrosis after lung transplantation; [195889] the updated National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidelines to be published. [196755] (3) what assessment his Department has made of the effectiveness of the current arrangements for donor Norman Lamb: We understand that the National lung allocation for people with cystic fibrosis. [195890] Institute for Health and Care Excellence currently expects to issue its updated clinical guideline on suspected cancer in May 2015. Further information can be found Jane Ellison: At present, NHS Blood and Transplant at: (NHSBT) allocates donated deceased lungs to designated http://guidance.nice.org.uk/CG/Wave0/618 transplant centres on a zonal basis, and the centre is Cerebral Palsy responsible for selecting the patient. The transplant surgeon will use their clinical knowledge to assess both the donor lungs and potential recipients to find the best Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Health match, based on aspects such as the risks associated what discussions he has had with the National Institute with the lungs and the severity of the patient’s condition. for Health and Care Excellence on a clinical guideline The current lung allocation system is monitored closely for cerebral palsy. [195702] to ensure there is equity for patients across the United Kingdom. NHSBT continue to consider practical steps Norman Lamb: The Department has asked the National within the current system which could improve patient Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) to outcomes. develop a clinical guideline on cerebral palsy. We have had no recent discussions with NICE on this topic. The Cardiothoracic Organs Advisory Group, part of NHSBT, is presently reviewing the current approach Cystic Fibrosis focusing on equity and better outcomes for patients. Any recommendations to change allocation policy will Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for be considered by NHSBT, who will check to ensure that Health (1) what assessment he has made of the Cystic they meet the aims of the allocation system and that Fibrosis Trust’s reported entitled, Hope for more: they have the support of transplant stakeholders before Improving access to lung transplantation and care for making any changes. people with cystic fibrosis in respect of the donor lung utilisation rate for transplantation; what measures his Decisions about psychosocial support available to Department has identified as having the greatest people with cystic fibrosis after lung transplantation are potential to increased utilisation; and if he will make a a matter for clinicians and commissioners when drawing statement; [195888] up the provision of care services for patients. 745W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 746W

Dementia centrally. Information is only available on the total number of people with a diagnosis of dementia. Mr Andrew Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what proportion of people with dementia in The latest information is for 2012-13 and sub-national each county are aged (a) under 65, (b) 65 to 80 and information is only available by region, area team and (c) over 80. [196638] Clinical Commissioning Group. Information by region and area team is provided in the following tables. Norman Lamb: Information on proportions of people Information by Clinical Commissioning Group has been with dementia in each county by age is not collected placed in the Library.

Number of patients recorded on the dementia register and the prevalence of dementia in England, by region, 2012-13 Sum of dementia Dementia prevalence Region name Number of practices Sum of list sizes register (percentage)

England 8,020 56,012,096 318,669 0.6 North of England 2,421 15,755,955 98,768 0.6 Midlands and East of England 2,358 16,881,964 96,274 0.6 London 1,447 9,048,148 33,333 0.4 South of England 1,794 14,326,029 90,294 0.6

Number of patients recorded on the dementia register and the prevalence of dementia in England, by area team, 2012-13 Sum of dementia Dementia prevalence Area team name Number of practices Sum of list sizes register (percentage)

England 8,020 56,012,096 318,669 0.6 Cheshire, Warrington and Wirral 175 1,275,943 8,018 0.6 Durham, Darlington and Tees 173 1,226,515 7,931 0.6 Greater Manchester 505 2,859,568 15,833 0.6 Lancashire 235 1,520,393 9,655 0.6 Merseyside 233 1,256,584 7,967 0.6 Cumbria, Northumberland, Tyne and Wear 309 1,994,177 14,351 0.7 North Yorkshire and Humber 238 1,681,137 10,377 0.6 South Yorkshire and Bassetlaw 218 1,507,346 10,511 0.7 West Yorkshire 335 2,434,292 14,125 0.6 Arden, Herefordshire and Worcestershire 231 1,691,537 9,814 0.6 Birmingham and The Black Country 465 2,606,584 13,552 0.5 Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire 280 2,047,022 12,952 0.6 East Anglia 293 2,504,379 15,848 0.6 Essex 277 1,803,323 10,034 0.6 Hertfordshire and The South Midlands 317 2,815,422 13,905 0.5 Leicestershire and Lincolnshire 249 1,822,762 10,887 0.6 Shropshire and Staffordshire 246 1,590,935 9,282 0.6 London 1,447 9,048,148 33,333 0.4 Bath, Gloucestershire, Swindon and Wiltshire 198 1,516,722 9,196 0.6 Bristol, North Somerset, Somerset and South Gloucs. 183 1,503,476 9,618 0.6 Devon, Cornwall and Isles of Scilly 233 1,747,006 12,719 0.7 Kent and Medway 266 1,790,801 9,693 0.5 Surrey and Sussex 339 2,810,307 18,677 0.7 Thames Valley 246 2,169,479 10,716 0.5 Wessex 329 2,788,238 19,675 0.7

Drugs: Side Effects The following table provides a breakdown of the total number of UK spontaneous ‘suspected’ ADR Albert Owen: To ask the Secretary of State for reports received by the MHRA during the last four Health whether his Department has made an estimate years with a fatal outcome. of the number of deaths caused by adverse reactions to Number of reports prescribed drugs in each of the last four years. [195685] 2010 1,478 Norman Lamb: Reports of ‘suspected’ adverse drug 2011 1,872 reactions (ADRs) are collected by the Medicines and 2012 1,568 Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) and 2013 1,604 Commission for Human Medicines through the spontaneous reporting scheme; the Yellow Card scheme. The scheme collects ADR reports from across the whole It should be noted that these data represent all UK United Kingdom and includes all medicines, including spontaneous ‘suspected’ ADR reports with a fatal outcome those from prescriptions, over-the-counter or general received through the Yellow Card scheme. The data retail sales. Reports are also received for herbal medicines cannot be stratified according to licensed or unlicensed and other unlicensed medicines. medicines. 747W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 748W

Epilepsy Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what steps he has taken to improve Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for co-ordination on food standards enforcement across Health pursuant to the answer of 7 April 2014, Official local authority areas; [195907] Report, column 38W, on epilepsy, what meetings (a) (2) what steps he has taken to promote best practice Ministers and (b) officials in his Department had before in food standards enforcement across the UK. [195909] 1 January to discuss the removal of pre-conception counselling for women taking anti-epilepsy medications Jane Ellison: The Food Standards Agency (FSA) is from the Quality and Outcomes Framework; and how the central competent authority for food safety, but the many such meetings were with Sanofi. [196753] majority of food law enforcement is delegated to local authorities throughout the United Kingdom. Local Norman Lamb: There have been no meetings involving authorities (LAs) carry out checks of all food businesses Ministers or officials with Sanofi on the removal of the in their area to ensure compliance with food safety/ indicator in the Quality and Outcomes Framework traceability and labelling requirements. (QOF) regarding pre-conception counselling for women The FSA monitors and audits local authority taking anti-epilepsy medications. enforcement of food standards. When areas of best The changes to the QOF are part of a wide ranging practice are identified, the agency promotes them to set of changes to the general practitioner (GP) contract LAs by various means, which help support a consistent for 2014-15. It is intended that these contract changes approach across enforcement authorities. These include: will encourage GPs and their practice teams to provide providing guidance and advice available online; updating more personalised and proactive care for patients. courses within its comprehensive annual training Changes to the QOF were negotiated with the General programme for enforcement officers; and liaising directly Practitioners Committee, which is part of the British with LAs through the regional team who disseminate Medical Association. key messages from the FSA. Measures to co-ordinate food standards enforcement Food: Standards across LAs are kept under continual review by the FSA to improve effectiveness of delivery. In doing this, the FSA works closely with local authorities and trading Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State standards professional bodies. The methods for for Health what recent estimate he has made of the co-ordination range from communication of guidance prevalence of food fraud in restaurants and food and direct support. Measures include funding of the outlets. [195906] UK-wide national co-ordinated food sampling programme, fighting funds to local authorities taking enforcement Jane Ellison: There has been no specific assessment action on issues of national interest and the support of made of overall levels of food fraud in United Kingdom expert enforcement advisory groups (on issues such as food outlets. food standards and food fraud) that provide advice on Sampling data held centrally by the Food Standards consistent application of food standards law. It also Agency (FSA) indicates that for 2013, the overall non- includes the use of data and intelligence collected from compliance rate for local authority testing for all meat local authorities when carrying out controls which can substitution was 13.5% from the 4,052 samples. The then be used to inform future enforcement. FSA is looking at whether any co-ordinated action is needed in response to these findings, though these figures General Practitioners should not be considered as constituting a likely assessment of levels of fraud as non-compliance can be for a range of reasons, of which fraud may be one. Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what reports he has received of clinical commissioning Local authority sampling is generally targeted towards groups setting thresholds on the number of referrals by areas where they expect to find problems and therefore its GP practices; what assessment he has made of the levels of non-compliance tend to be higher than would prevalence of such a practice and its effect on early be expected for randomised surveys of foods of the diagnosis of cancers; and if he will make a statement. market. [R] [196683] Food authenticity and food adulteration issues have been prioritised as part of the FSA co-ordinated programme Jane Ellison: Timeliness of diagnosis and treatment is of food sampling carried out by local authorities. In what patients expect and remains essential to providing cases of non-compliance, enforcement is carried out by high quality care. Clinical commissioning groups (CCGs) local authority enforcement officers, and where food are responsible for commissioning local secondary care fraud is suspected, this information will be passed on to services for the population they serve. All practice referrals the FSA. and prescribing rates are monitored and compared. The The FSA has encouraged a greater level of reporting data from this exercise generally is used to inform a of suspected food fraud, and this is reflected in the conversation between the practice and CCG about the increased number of intelligence reports received. Since issues faced by the practice. It is not possible to say that 2007, the amount of intelligence received and inputted high referral rates are necessarily good or bad, but NHS on to the food fraud database has risen from 49 reports England have advised that it is not normal for any CCG in 2007 to 1,538 in 2013. However, this does not necessarily to create a ‘quota’ system for general practitioner (GP) indicate an increase in the level of food fraud, but does referrals and we have no evidence to suggest thresholds demonstrate an increase in the reporting of suspected are in place on the number of patients GPs can refer. It issues. is important that conversations are held to test out 749W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 750W whether practices are referring according to local and Dr Poulter: The maternity pathway payment system national guidelines, that they are making effective use of was first mandated for use in 2013-14, and represents a resources, and that they are having appropriate access significant change in the way that maternity services are to diagnostics and in-house advice. reimbursed. Previously maternity services were paid for NHS England, through its area teams, uses the CCG on a fee for service basis. Under the new payment assurance framework to assess whether CCGs are meeting system, activity is bundled into three pathways-antenatal, their statutory duty to deliver continuous overall delivery and postnatal-each of which is paid separately. improvement in the health outcomes of local populations. From 2014-15, national tariffs will be set by Monitor, Integral to the assurance assessment is consideration of but flexibility will continue to be allowed by the Department a range of timely indicators, quality metrics and other to address financial risks associated with implementing outcome measures to make an overall assessment of the new system. Provision for local modification to the progress towards delivering improved outcomes. national price, for example, where a local service is needed to ensure safe care, but would otherwise be Hereditary Diseases non-viable, will also continue. Monitor and NHS England have jointly established a review process and will monitor how the new system is working. Amendments will be Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for considered to address any perverse effects and minimise Health what discussions he has had with the Royal administrative burdens. Colleges on whether the genetic transmission of illness In 2010, a costing exercise was undertaken to inform from parent to child can be prevented by medication. the tariff setting decisions and to set price levels to fund [195894] sufficient staffing levels in maternity units. A formal review of the maternity tariff post implementation is Jane Ellison: Ministers have had no discussions with planned to take place later this year and will help to the Royal Colleges on whether the genetic transmission inform the 2016-17 tariff. of illness from parent to child can be prevented by medication. Medical Treatments The Government supports good practice in informed choice for all patients or parents to aid prevention of Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for Health serious illness or disease. if he will review and consult on the methodology the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence uses Jimmy Savile to appraise medicines which are used in small patient populations; and if he will make a statement. [R] [196688] Barbara Keeley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how much funding has been allocated by the Norman Lamb: The National Institute for Health NHS to fund compensation for victims of abuse by and Care Excellence (NICE) may assess medicines licensed Jimmy Savile; and from which NHS budget such for small patient populations through either its technology funding has been drawn. [196667] appraisal or its highly specialised technologies programmes. The size of the patient population is an important Norman Lamb: No funding from national health consideration in determining which programme a medicine service resources has been allocated to fund compensation is assessed under. for victims of abuse by Jimmy Savile. The claims handling NICE is responsible for the methods it uses to develop co-ordination scheme announced on 22 April 2014, its guidance and periodically reviews its published methods which has been approved by the High Court (claim no: for technology appraisal. NICE most recently reviewed HC13F00335), will, in the first instance, draw on the its methods guide in 2012-13 and held a public consultation estate of Jimmy Savile to make payments to victims of and a series of workshops with stakeholders as part of abuse. the process. NICE is currently holding a further consultation If, in the future, the estate funds are exhausted, it is on its proposals for value assessment of health technologies, only then that claims may be funded from the public including new drugs. purse. The scheme covers claims which may arise in a NICE is currently following an interim methods guide variety of circumstances and is not restricted to alleged for its highly specialised technologies programme. We assaults on NHS premises. understand that NICE will be reviewing the methods guide later this year. As part of this review, there will be Maternity Services a full consultation. NHS England Mr George Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what assessment he has made of the Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Health effectiveness of the new payment framework for maternity what guidance his Department gives to chief officers of care in England; and what steps he has taken to ensure NHS England local area teams on responding to questions that this process provides sufficient income to providers from hon. Members. [196622] to deliver his Department’s objectives; [195771] (2) what steps he has taken to ensure that the tariff Jane Ellison: The Department and NHS England setting process for maternity services is sufficient to have an agreed protocol in place to ensure that timely fund safe staffing levels in maternity units in England. and appropriate responses are provided by NHS England [195772] for its public and parliamentary accountabilities. 751W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 752W

The provision of specific guidance to its area teams is The following table shows the recorded cases of scarlet an operational matter for NHS England and we are fever between 2008 and 2013: informed that NHS England is committed to openness and transparency in its dealings with all correspondents, Total scarlet fever notifications including hon. Members. 2008 2,920 NHS England is also committed to ensuring compliance 2009 4,176 with freedom of information, data protection and 2010 2,969 complaints legislation. 2011 2,719 NHS: Public Appointments 2012 4,253 2013 4,607 Frank Dobson: To ask the Secretary of State for Notes: 1. All figures provided are for England and Wales. Health pursuant to the answer of 16 December 2013, 2. Total scarlet fever notifications for each year between 2008 and Official Report, column 524W, on NHS: public 2012 in England and Wales are provided from the NOIDs annual appointments, where data showing the gender of people report published in January 2014. The scarlet fever notifications for appointed the boards of NHS Foundation trusts is 2013 have not been published as an annual figure and have been held. [195807] derived from the NOIDs weekly reporting. Speech Therapy Jane Ellison: This information is not collected centrally. Information on the constitution of individual NHS foundation trust boards is available in the annual report Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for of each foundation trust. Health (1) what steps will be taken against health and wellbeing boards which fail to provide augmentative Pancreatic Cancer and alternative communication provision; [196623] (2) pursuant to the contribution of the Minister for Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for Care and Support on 6 June 2013, whether NHS England’s Health (1) what steps he is taking to ensure that all projected spending on augmentative and alternative patients diagnosed with pancreatic cancer are assigned communication will be based on (a) historic spending a clinical nurse specialist; [196649] levels and (b) identified need within each local area. (2) if he will take steps to ensure that dieticians are [196662] considered to be compulsory members of pancreatic cancer multidisciplinary teams that review patients. Norman Lamb: The projected activity levels and needs [196650] assessment for patients with complex needs requiring access to specialised augmentative and alternative Jane Ellison: Since 1 April 2013, NHS England has communication (AAC) services has been informed by been responsible for delivering improvements in all the audit project undertaken jointly by the Department cancer services. for Education and Sheffield university looking at provision NHS England’s pancreatic cancer service specification of AAC services across the United Kingdom and ‘Two clearly defines what it expects to be in place for providers YearsOn’the final report of the Communication Champion to offer evidence-based, safe and effective pancreatic for Children Jean Gross CBE. This will inform NHS cancer services. This guidance sets out that patients England’s agreement of contracts with those specialised should have access to a clinical nurse specialist (CNS) providers for 2014-15. This work has been led by the and a dietician as part of their multidisciplinary team to NHS England AAC subgroup of the Complex Disability support them through the care pathway. Equipment Clinical Reference Group. As set out in the service specification, all patients The commissioning responsibility for the commissioning with upper gastrointestinal disease, such as pancreatic of non-specialised AAC services remains the responsibility cancer, are at risk of dietary problems and should have of individual clinical commissioning groups (CCGs). access to full dietetic in-patient and out-patient services. NHS England has no mandate to direct CCGs or Dieticians should be available to see patients during health and wellbeing boards in relation to the provision regular outpatient clinics and available for consultation of those non specialised services. on ward rounds and multidisciplinary team meetings. While the recruitment of staff is a local matter, NHS Transplant Surgery England would expect trusts to consider the recruitment of staff such as dieticians and CNSs in developing their Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for policies to improve patient experience. Health (1) how many operations for heart transplants Scarlet Fever have involved the use of genetically modified organs from (a) pigs and (b) cattle in each of the last three years; [195895] Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many cases of scarlet fever have been (2) what the average life expectancy is of people into recorded in each of the last five years. [195901] whom genetically modified organs from (a) pigs and (b) cattle are transplanted. [195896] Jane Ellison: Scarlet fever cases in England and Wales are collected as part of the statutory notifications of Jane Ellison: Current United Kingdom organ infectious diseases (NOIDs) and reports are based on a transplantation programmes only use human organs clinical diagnosis reported from a credible source. donated in life or after death. 753W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 754W

JUSTICE Simon Hughes: The proportion of offenders given custody for sexual offences has increased since 2003. Employment Agencies The number of female defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts and found guilty or not guilty at Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice all courts for sexual offences against children, in England which five companies were used most often to provide and Wales from 2008 to 2012 (the latest data available), temporary workers for his Department in the last can be viewed in the following tables. financial year; and how much in agency fees was paid Court proceedings data for calendar year 2013 are to each of them. [195558] planned for publication in May 2014. Mr Vara: Temporary staff can provide a fast, flexible Charging data are not held by the Ministry of Justice. and efficient way to obtain necessary skills that are not Female defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts and found guilty and available in-house. They are only used for short term sentenced for sexual offences against children1, England and Wales, 2008-122,3 appointments where there is a strong business case, such Outcome 20084 2009 2010 2011 2012 as support for Transforming Rehabilitation and other Proceeded against 31 43 42 46 50 major reform programmes within the MOJ. Found guilty 15 22 24 24 34 The Ministry of Justice has spent the following on Conviction ratio 48 51 57 52 68 the provision of service with (a) Capita, (b) Brook (%) Street, (c) Hays PLC (d) Groupe Steria and (e) Certes Sentenced 15 22 24 24 33 Holdings in the financial year 2013-14. Spend is exclusive Of which: of VAT. Immediate custody 8 11 12 13 21 Financial year 2013-14 Average custodial 40.5 36.2 26.1 54.6 40.8 sentence length Supplier £ (months)

Capita 26,411,523.67 Brook Street 24,514,489.19 Custody rate5 53 50 50 54 64 Hays PLC 16,548,878.53 1 Includes sexual offences against a child where the age of the victim has been recognised: Sexual Offences Act 2003, s1, s5, s6, s7, s8, s9, s10, s11, s12, s14, Groupe Steria 3,000,763.31 s15, s16, s17, s18, s19, s25, s26, s47, s48, s49, s50; Criminal Justice Act 1988, Certes Holdings 712,948.27 s160; Protection of Children Act 1978, s1; Indecency with Children Act 1960, s1; Sexual Offences Act 1956, s28. The approval process on expenditure has been tightened 2 The figures given in the table relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has in recent years. All requirements over £20,000 must been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the have departmental approval from the Director General heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or of Finance. more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and Employment Tribunals Service complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection Ian Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those how many days were taken to process and grant each of data are used. the applications for remissions of employment tribunal 4 Excludes data for Cardiff magistrates court for April, July and August 2008. 5 Conviction ratio is calculated as the number of convictions as a proportion fees that have been (a) granted and (b) partially of the number of proceedings. granted. [196795] Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice Female defendants found not guilty1 of sexual offences against children2, Mr Vara: The guidance document published by HM England and Wales, 2008-123,4 Courts and Tribunals Service (HMCTS) explains that Number remission applications will be processed within five working days of the date that they are received, and that 20085 17 appeals will be determined within 10 days. The latest 2009 14 available information collated by HMCTS staff indicates 2010 19 that the applications received in respect of employment 2011 19 tribunal matters are currently determined within three 2012 21 working days. Appeals in respect of employment tribunal 1 Includes cases where proceedings discontinued, discharged, withdrawn, dismissed at all courts and, at Crown courts only, defendants not tried and acquitted. The remissions decisions are currently determined within number found guilty and found not guilty in a year can be greater than the nine days. number proceeded against in that year if they include cases from previous years. 2 Includes sexual offences against a child where the age of the victim has been However, data on the time taken for each one of the recognised: Sexual Offences Act 2003, s1, s5, s6, s7, s8, s9, s10, s11, s12, s14, s15, remission applications determined so far are not readily s16, s17, s18, s19, s25, s26, s47, s48, s49, s50; Criminal Justice Act 1988, s160. available. To obtain that data would require significant 3 The figures given in the table relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has work to interrogate the relevant HMCTS case management been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest database. This work, if undertaken for the purposes of penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more answering this question, would incur disproportionate offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. cost. 4 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted Offences against Children from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for data are used. 5 Excludes data for Cardiff magistrates court for April, July and August 2008. Justice how many women have been convicted of child Source: sex offences in each of the last three years. [195892] Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice 755W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 756W

Prisoners: Radicalism Standing, to determine Potential Bidders’ ability to fund a proposed contract. In mid December 2013, the Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice bidders who passed this eligibility test were announced. how many prisoners in each prison have refused to take The list includes a mix of private and voluntary sector part in the Ibaana programme since it was first partnerships with more than 50 organisations represented introduced. [196681] – from charities experienced in tackling a range of issues affecting offenders, to small and large British Jeremy Wright: I refer the hon. Member to the reply businesses and experienced multinationals. All of these given to him on 28 April 2014, Official Report, Tier One bidders have experience in working with offenders column 617W. or across the wider Criminal Justice System. We do not anticipate supplier failure, but contracts Prisoners: Solitary Confinement will have the full range of remedies in the case of failure; up to and including contract termination in the Karl McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for case of insolvency, default or persistent breach. NOMS Justice how many people were kept in solitary will be able to exercise step-in rights, for example in the confinement at (a) HMP Lincoln and (b) nationally in case of a breach that materially affects the performance each month of each of the last five years for which or services, and the NPS will ensure we retain this figures are available. [196752] expertise in the public sector. The contract allows for discussions with another CRC provider to be brought Jeremy Wright: In instances where prisoners are removed in as provider of last resort in the event that the initial from normal location they are not left in isolation for provider fails. No change of ownership may occur extended periods of time and are never, therefore, held without the prior written consent of the Authority, and in conditions of solitary confinement. we would exercise those rights to ensure our stringent Prisoners may, be held in segregation for reasons of suitability criteria are met before the initial provider good order and discipline or for their own protection. was taken over. They may also be segregated to await adjudication or as Secure Colleges a punishment of cellular confinement for offences against prison discipline. Prisoners are only segregated where it Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for is proportionate to the risk posed by or to the prisoner Justice how many times (a) he and (b) Ministers in his in question and where there are no practical alternatives. Department have met (i) G4S, (ii) Serco, (iii) Sodexo Segregation is only in circumstances that are lawful, and (iv) any other private provider to discuss secure safe and decent. colleges in the last 18 months. [196626] Figures for the number of prisoners held in segregation during the period specified are not recorded centrally Jeremy Wright: All meetings with external organisations and could be provided only by collating the relevant up until October 2013 are published by the Cabinet information from records held at (a) Lincoln prison Office on the gov.uk website at: and (b) all prisons. In either case this could be done https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/ministers- only at disproportionate cost. transparency-publications Prisons: Publications Details of meetings from October 2013 onwards will be published shortly.

Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for how many books were bought by prisoners through the Justice how many times he has discussed secure colleges earned privileges scheme in each of the last five years. with the (a) Secretary of State for Health and (b) [196680] Secretary of State for Education in the last 18 months. [196627] Jeremy Wright: Information on the number of books bought by prisoners is not held centrally and would Jeremy Wright: The Lord Chancellor and Secretary need to be collated through inquiries at each prison in of State for Justice, my right hon. Friend the Member England and Wales. This would incur disproportionate for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), and I are in cost. regular contact with our counterparts at the Department Probation for Health and Department of Education. Our officials are also working together closely to develop our plans. Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Visits Abroad under the Government’s Transforming Rehabilitation proposals, what the outcome would be if one of the tier Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice one providers in the Community Rehabilitation how many overseas trips, and at what total cost, his Companies under Transforming Rehabilitation was to Department made in each year since 2010; and what the (a) go into receivership and (b) be taken over by costs of (a) flights, (b) internal travel, (c) hotel another organisation which failed to meet the accommodation and (d) subsistence were of each trip. Government’s suitability criteria. [196687] [174860]

Jeremy Wright: We have a robust and diverse market. Mr Vara: The Ministry of Justice has reduced the During the Pre-Qualification Questionnaire (PQQ) stage overall cost of air travel by almost half since 2009, and of the competition, we tested providers rigorously against our total spend on all travel has fallen by more than a number of criteria, including Economic and Financial 40% in the same period-a saving of more than £9 million. 757W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 758W

Furthermore, this year, the Secretary of State for Mr Goodwill: The Department for Transport considers Justice toughened up the rules to ban first and business equality issues in exercising its functions, to comply class travel for Ministers and officials in the department with the equality legislation and to ensure it understands other than in exceptional circumstances where this is how its activities will affect different people. While there required to meet business need. is no requirement under the Equality Act to carry out Overseas travel makes up a small proportion of the equality impact assessment on cycling policy, the Department’s overall travel requirement. Flights and Department believes disabled cyclists should not be travel by Eurostar are booked through our contracted disadvantaged. supplier, and whilst the MOJ records data on transactions, To help local authorities develop infrastructure for it does not hold details of the cost or destination of cyclists, including disabled cyclists, the Department has individual trips centrally. The cost of breaking down all produced guidance through Cycle Infrastructure Design travel in the ways requested would be disproportionate, (Local Transport Note 2/08). LTN 2/08 can be found at: as managers across the Department would have to create a breakdown of every trip taken, itemised by the https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/local-transport- different kinds of expenditure. notes

Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for TRANSPORT Transport how many (a) fatal and (b) serious injuries were suffered by (i) male and (ii) female cyclists in each Cycling of the last 10 years. [196672]

Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what assessment he has made of the degree Mr Goodwill: The numbers of reported (a) fatal and to which his Department has complied with the Public (b) seriously injured male and female cyclist casualties Sector Equality Duty with regard to disabled cyclists. in Great Britain for each of the last 10 years are shown [196625] in the following table:

Reported fatal or seriously injured cyclists by gender, GB: 2003-2012 Number of casualties (a) Fatal (b) Serious (i) Male (ii) Female Total (i) Male (ii) Female Total

2003 89 25 114 1,916 380 2,296 2004 107 27 134 1,816 358 2,174 2005 131 17 148 1,811 399 2,210 2006 122 24 146 1,898 398 2,296 2007 112 24 136 1,978 450 2,428 2008 97 18 115 2,009 441 2,450 2009 83 21 104 2,156 450 2,606 2010 85 26 111 2,162 498 2,660 2011 85 22 107 2,536 549 3,085 2012 109 9 118 2,650 572 3,222

Data for 2013 will be available in June 2014. (a) men and (b) women cyclists’ in London suffered (i) fatal and (ii) serious injuries in each of the last 10 Cycling: Greater London years. [196692]

Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Goodwill: The numbers of reported (a) fatal and Transport pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member (b) seriously injured male and female cyclist casualties for Newport West of 9 April 2014, Official Report, in Greater London for each of the last 10 years are column 231W, on cycling: Greater London, how many shown in the table below.

Reported fatal and seriously injured cyclists by gender, Greater London 2003-2012 Number of casualties Fatal Serious injuries (1) Male (2) Female Total (1) Male (2) Female Total

2003 12 7 19 334 85 419 2004 6 2 8 269 63 332 2005 18 3 21 283 68 351 2006 11 8 19 282 91 373 2007 11 4 15 353 93 446 2008 11 4 15 338 92 430 2009 3 10 13 337 83 420 759W Written Answers30 APRIL 2014 Written Answers 760W

Reported fatal and seriously injured cyclists by gender, Greater London 2003-2012 Number of casualties Fatal Serious injuries (1) Male (2) Female Total (1) Male (2) Female Total

2010 6 4 10 359 99 458 2011 10 6 16 437 118 555 2012 13 1 14 527 132 659

Data for 2013 will be available in June 2014. July 2014 to October 2016 is circa £266 million payment to the Department for Transport. Premium is quoted in Driving Under Influence: Drugs January 2014 price. There will be no revenue support for the Greater Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Anglia Direct Award from July 2014 to October 2016. what steps he is taking to ensure that (a) patients, (b) healthcare professionals and (c) the general public Roads: Repairs and Maintenance understand the new drug driving offence. [196676] Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Goodwill: Paragraphs 10.2 and 10.3 of the summary Transport what formula is being used to distribute (a) of the responses to the consultation on the proposed the £185 million fund to help repair local roads damaged drugs and their limits sets out the steps the Department by severe weather announced and (b) the £200 million proposes to take in communicating the new drug driving Challenge Fund announced by the Chancellor of the offence. The summary is available at: Exchequer in the 2014 Budget Statement. [196690] https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/drug-driving- proposed-regulations Mr Goodwill: The information requested is as follows: (a) The distribution of the £185 million provided to Large Goods Vehicles: Taxation help repair local roads damaged by severe weather is described in the following table: Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what assessment his Department has made Amount Funding allocation of the effect of the HGV User Levy on UK businesses £70 million Formula based on road length (in miles) and the reliant on foreign hauliers for imports and exports. number of bridges (spanning over 1.5 metres) damaged [196628] by severe weather events in winter 2013/14. This was based on information supplied by affected English Mr Goodwill: International road haulage is a competitive local highway authorities (outside of London) market, so it is unlikely that there are UK businesses £93.5 million Formula based on local highway authority road length reliant on foreign hauliers for imports and exports. In for English local highway authorities (outside of London). most cases, UK hauliers can compete for this business. £10 million Lump sum provided to Transport for London to distribute amongst London local highway authorities. The levy is paid by both UK and foreign hauliers. £10 million Lump sum provided to Somerset County Council to However while this means some increase in costs for help implement some of the transport recommendations foreign hauliers, costs for around nine out of 10 UK arising from the Somerset Levels and Moors Flood HGVs have not increased, as vehicle excise duty was Action Plan. reduced when the levy was introduced. (b) Funding formula for the £200 million Challenge A Tax Information and Impact Note was published Fund announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in on the Department for Transport website in October the 2014 budget statement: 2012: £32 million is being provided directly to the devolved https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ Administrations as a result of the Barnett formula. It is attachment_data/file/232294/hgv-charging-tax-information.pdf a matter for the devolved Administrations how their Railways: East of England shares of the funds are used. On 24 April 2014 English local highway authorities Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for were in invited to bid for a share of a £168 million Transport what the amount of (a) net franchise Pothole Fund to repair local roads. payment and (b) revenue support is for the extension Local authorities wishing to apply for a share of the of the Greater Anglia franchise from July 2014 to funding are required to submit an application to the October 2016. [196643] Department for Transport by 22 May 2014. Details of the application are available to view via: Stephen Hammond: The net franchise premium payment https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/pothole-fund- contracted for the Greater Anglia Direct Award from 2014-to-2015-application

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 30 April 2014

Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 807 CABINET OFFICE—continued Big Society ...... 807 Topical Questions ...... 814 Civil Service ...... 813 Volunteering...... 813 Civil Service (Outsourcing) ...... 808 Civil Service (Waste) ...... 812 Cybercrime ...... 811 PRIME MINISTER ...... 816 Social Finance...... 810 Engagements...... 816 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Wednesday 30 April 2014

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 51WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Assisted Areas Map 2014-20 ...... 51WS AFFAIRS...... 54WS National Space Security Policy ...... 52WS Plant Biosecurity Strategy...... 54WS HEALTH...... 55WS European Health Care Payments ...... 55WS CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 53WS TRANSPORT ...... 56WS Betting Shops and Gambling ...... 53WS Highways Agency ...... 56WS PETITION

Wednesday 30 April 2014

Col. No. HEALTH...... 13P Cardiac Rehabilitation Services at Danetre Hospital (Daventry) ...... 13P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 30 April 2014

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 687W CABINET OFFICE—continued Ukraine...... 687W National Citizen Service...... 698W Non-governmental Organisations: Vetting...... 699W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 687W Public Sector: Fraud ...... 700W Apprentices...... 687W Trade Unions ...... 700W Apprentices: Lancashire...... 689W Youth Services...... 697W Business: Advisory Services ...... 689W Cheshire Employer and Skills Development ...... 689W CHURCH COMMISSIONERS ...... 700W Consumers...... 690W Stationery ...... 700W Further Education: Greater London...... 690W Higher Education...... 691W Industrial Strategy Sector Councils...... 691W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 700W National Careers Service...... 694W Empty Property ...... 700W Official Receiver...... 694W Local Government ...... 701W Parental Leave...... 695W Private Sector...... 702W Paternity Leave ...... 696W Social Rented Housing...... 703W Stationery ...... 696W Staff ...... 703W UK Trade and Investment...... 697W Stationery ...... 703W Tell MAMA...... 704W CABINET OFFICE...... 697W Wind Power ...... 704W Crown Commercial Service...... 698W Digital Government ...... 697W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 733W Giro d’Italia ...... 698W Advertising ...... 733W Government Departments: Drinking Water...... 698W Consultants...... 733W Government Departments: ICT ...... 699W Heritage Lottery Fund...... 733W Government Departments: Procurement ...... 699W Museums and Galleries...... 734W Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE...... 737W HOME DEPARTMENT—continued Armed Forces: Mortgages...... 737W Fraud ...... 717W Military Decorations...... 738W Human Trafficking ...... 717W Human Trafficking: Albania...... 718W EDUCATION...... 705W Licensing Laws: Wales ...... 719W Children: Social Services...... 705W Policy ...... 721W Domestic Violence ...... 705W Tranquillisers ...... 721W Pupil Exclusions: Autism ...... 706W Pupils: Absenteeism ...... 706W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 721W School Meals ...... 707W Stationery ...... 721W Schools: Governing Bodies ...... 708W Special Educational Needs...... 708W JUSTICE...... 753W UN Convention on the Rights of the Child ...... 709W Employment Agencies...... 753W Employment Tribunals Service...... 753W ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE ...... 709W Offences against Children ...... 753W Electoral Register...... 709W Prisoners: Radicalism...... 755W Prisoners: Solitary Confinement ...... 755W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 711W Prisons: Publications...... 755W Energy Companies Obligation ...... 711W Probation ...... 755W Energy: Housing ...... 712W Secure Colleges ...... 756W Floods: Cumbria...... 712W Visits Abroad ...... 756W Green Deal Scheme...... 713W UK Coal ...... 713W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 722W Female Genital Mutilation...... 722W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Foreign Investment in UK ...... 722W AFFAIRS...... 738W Freedom of Information ...... 722W Fisheries...... 738W Northern Ireland Government...... 723W Litter...... 738W Trade Unions ...... 723W Policy ...... 738W World Expo: Italy ...... 723W World War I: Anniversaries...... 723W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 734W Burma...... 734W PRIME MINISTER ...... 724W China ...... 735W National Insurance Contributions ...... 724W Commonwealth ...... 735W United Nations ...... 736W SCOTLAND...... 724W Uzbekistan...... 737W Stationery ...... 724W Trade Unions ...... 724W HEALTH...... 739W Ambulance Services: East Midlands ...... 739W TRANSPORT ...... 757W Arthritis ...... 741W Cycling...... 757W Better Care Fund ...... 741W Cycling: Greater London ...... 757W Cancer ...... 741W Driving Under Influence: Drugs ...... 759W Cerebral Palsy...... 743W Large Goods Vehicles: Taxation...... 759W Cystic Fibrosis ...... 743W Railways: East of England ...... 759W Dementia ...... 745W Roads: Repairs and Maintenance...... 760W Drugs: Side Effects...... 745W Epilepsy ...... 747W TREASURY ...... 724W Food: Standards...... 747W Capital Gains Tax ...... 724W General Practitioners ...... 748W Employee Ownership ...... 725W Hereditary Diseases ...... 749W Inheritance Tax...... 725W Jimmy Savile ...... 749W Minimum Wage: Northern Ireland ...... 725W Maternity Services ...... 749W Stamp Duty Land Tax ...... 726W Medical Treatments...... 750W Tax Allowances: Pensions ...... 726W NHS England ...... 750W Taxation...... 727W NHS: Public Appointments ...... 751W Taxation: Business ...... 727W Pancreatic Cancer ...... 751W Scarlet Fever ...... 751W WALES...... 728W Speech Therapy...... 752W Trade Unions ...... 728W Transplant Surgery...... 752W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 728W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 713W Atos Healthcare ...... 728W Asylum: Deportation ...... 713W Children...... 728W Asylum: North East...... 714W Employment Support Allowance ...... 729W British Air Transport Association ...... 714W Jobseeker’s Allowance...... 729W Community Relations ...... 714W Occupational Pensions: Skipton...... 729W Crime: Rural Areas ...... 714W Pensions: Females ...... 730W Crimes of Violence: Taxis ...... 715W Policy ...... 731W Domestic Violence ...... 715W Remploy...... 731W Drugs: Misuse...... 716W Social Security Benefits: Fraud ...... 731W Entry Clearances...... 716W State Retirement Pensions: Females ...... 732W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS

Wednesday 30 April 2014

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 807] [see index inside back page] Minister for the Cabinet Office Prime Minister

Speaker’s Statement [Col. 829]

Stop-and-Search [Col. 831] Statement—(Mrs May)

National Planning Policy Framework (Community Involvement) [Col. 847] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Greg Mulholland)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Section 5 of the European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 [Col. 850] Motion—(Nicky Morgan)—on a Division, agreed to

Wales Bill [Col. 876] Considered in Committee

Petitions [Col. 962]

Free Schools (Chapeltown, Sheffield) [Col. 963] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Type 1 Diabetes (Young People) [Col. 247WH] Bowling Greens [Col. 272WH] Catholic Schools (Admissions) [Col. 278WH] Prison Education and Welfare Services [Col. 302WH] Garment Industry (Working Conditions) [Col. 310WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 51WS]

Petition [Col. 13P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 687W] [see index inside back page]