Evolutionary Theory & Behavioral Science an Interview with Gad Saad
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Episode 103 – Evolutionary Theory & Behavioral Science An Interview with Gad Saad Aired on September 6, 2018 [Intro Music] [00:34] Haley: We're here with the Ninth International Conference on Complex Systems and we had a second to sit down with Gad Saad, very excited about this. Gad is an evolutionary behavioral scientist who's known for applying evolutionary psychology to marketing and consumer behavior. He's also a professor of marketing at Concordia University and a public intellect. We find him online as the Gadfather. Thank you for joining us. [01:00] Gad: Thank you so much for having me. [01:02] Haley: Would you just start off by telling us a little more about yourself and the work that you do in case our listeners are unfamiliar. [01:07] Gad: Sure. I basically apply evolutionary theory to understand the human mind and then I look for places to apply that. So, it could be that I'm housed in a business school, one of the things that interest me is our consummatory nature. What are some of our biological vestiges that manifest themselves in a modern environment? So, I look at things like, how do hormones affect women’s behaviors, gift-giving practices, and how these might be related to gift-giving and other species. So, I look at all of the ways by which our consuming instinct manifests itself. [01:44] Haley: Very cool. As a marketing major, I love your work. [01:47] Gad: Oh great. [01:49] Haley: I'm a marketing background but I love the psychology side of it, I find it fascinating and I just happen to fall into the complexity realm through a mentor who funds the podcast, so it's interesting to see you here at this conference. Can you tell us how you ended up here? [02:06] Gad: Right, I was contacted by Jo Norman the gentleman who's organizing the workshop who I guess follows my work. I'll be talking about this notion of consilience. Consilience is a term that was re-introduced into the lexicon by E.O. Wilson, the Harvard biologist. Consilience refers to the unity of knowledge, so some fields are inherently more organized than others. Physics is more organized than sociology, chemistry is more organized than marketing, not because physicists are © The HumanCurrent 2018 smarter than sociologists but because physicists work within certain organized frameworks. So, what I'll be talking about at today's session is how do you build an argument to prove that something is an adaptation. If you want to say, for example, that risk-taking is a sexually selected trait, how would you demonstrate that? If you want to prove that the hourglass figure that men so desire in women around the world is an adaptation, how would you go about proving that? And you do so by looking for evidence across many, many different disciplines, across many different time periods, and across many different cultures. You slowly build enough evidence that it becomes unassailable, that the argument that you're making is vertical, so that's what I'll be talking about. [03:20] Haley: Wow, fascinating. So, you're going to be talking in a group with Nassim and I see some parallels in what you guys talk about. Can you describe how your work aligns with his? He talks about skin in the game and risk taking. [03:38] Gad: Sure. There's a phenomenon in biology called costly signaling. For example, if you take the peacock's tail, the peacock's tail could not have evolved due to survival because, if anything having, a big tail reduces your survivability. Instead, it arises because of female mate choice. It's an honest signal of the males’ genotypic quality. It's basically saying, "look, despite the fact that I'm carrying this burdensome tail, this tail that makes it more difficult for me to avoid predators, I'm here and I've survived. Choose me." It's an honest signal. For a signal to be honest, it has to be costly. One of the things that I think that we admired in one another, Nassim and I, is that we are both irreverent to orthodoxy. We speak our minds, something that, regrettably, is very, very rare in academia. You would think that academia people would be at the forefront of making bold statements, most are regrettably suffer from herd mentality. So, I think more than anything, what unites us is our desire to promote people who have skin in the game. [04:42] Haley: Yeah, definitely. It's interesting how you're in academia and you go online to be a public figurehead and talk about these intellectual topics. So, it takes a lot of courage and I'm wondering if maybe you went to the public because you weren't able to discuss these in academia or you felt like you needed to take another route. [05:01] Gad: You know, as soon as I discovered all of the benefits that are yielded via all of these social media tools, as an academic, I'm in the business of creating knowledge and then disseminating knowledge. There are many ways by which I could disseminate the knowledge. I could teach in a classroom, I could publish in peer-reviewed journals, which are typically only going to be read by other academics, and I could appear on the Joe Rogan show and by the end of that show ten million people might become excited about evolutionary psychology. I think the problem with many academics, again not to bash my colleagues, but many of them suffer from an ivory tower complex. If I'm a serious academic I should not be speaking to Joe © The HumanCurrent 2018 Rogan, that's beneath me. That’s baloney. Joe Rogan has more influence than CNN, CBS, and CBC, all the different stations you can think of, so it's all about reach. For me, it's a very pragmatic reason that I decided to be in the public. I'm interested in discussing ideas and I will use any and all possible ways to achieve that goal. [06:05] Haley: We were talking about the podcast platform and how you can have these really long nuanced conversations that you don't see in the regular media platforms. Why do you think that's so important to have these deeper conversations where you can touch on many different areas? [06:21] Gad: I think because it really does create this incredible sense of intimacy when people are afforded the opportunity to be flies on the wall listening to two people really dig into each other's ideas for an hour or two. It's not usually on my show; I don't spend as much as say, Joe Rogan does about three-hour shows. My shows are about maybe an hour to seventy-five minutes but that's still enough time for people to really dig into some solid ideas. You give the person an opportunity to expand on whatever they're thinking. Whereas when you appear in the typical sort of mainstream media you have two, three, five minutes, so you have a very little snippet to make a point. It's artificial, it's fake, and it doesn't allow you to expand. That's why I think most people really appreciate that. If I look at all my shows on my channel, almost all of the ones that have been the most viewed are the long format conversations. You would think that the three-minute snippets would be the ones that would go viral. No, it's the one-hour, two-hour chats that become the most popular ones. [07:19] Haley: Yes. We were playing with the length of our episodes for a while and with complexity podcasts, it's really hard to talk about complexity in a 20-minute spot but you want to be conscious of people's time and feel out how the conversation is going to go but I think that forty-five minute, one hour window is a good length of time to really dig in with somebody. That's what we've learned anyway after a couple years of doing this. [07:42] Gad: How many have you done so far? [07:43] Haley: We've done- I think this is ninety-five. [07:47] Gad: Okay, very nice. Congrats, you're almost at a hundred? [07:49] Haley: Yes, we're getting there. So, I wanted to talk a little bit about your book and dig in a little deeper to the topics that you touch on, evolutionary consumption, evolutionary psychology. Why is that so important to talk about? [08:04] Gad: So, if you want to be a good marketer, you're basically, someone who understands human nature. You can't be a good marketer and go against human nature. You © The HumanCurrent 2018 could have a six billion advertising budget but you're not going to convince people to eat or drink grass juice because that's not something that is consistent with our evolved gustatory preferences. Just to give you one or two other examples, there's a company a few years ago, I can't remember the exact name of the company, they wanted to create a new line of romance novels where the male archetype would be more gentle, more sensitive and so on. Guess what happened to that line? [08:36] Haley: It didn't do so well? [08:37] Gad: Didn't do so well because across the world when women read romance novels it's the exact same male archetype.