Questiou, e1c. Questons,8 lEeCEs tc. ER, 1904.) Government Business. 1707 MOTIOX- GOVERNMENT BUSINESS, iLegczlatibe %oemb IV, PRECEDENCE. Thurtday, 8th December, 1904. The PREMIER (Hon. H. Daglish) moved: PAGE Question; South-Western RIly Duplication ... 1707 That for the remainder of the session Road tSotBecCose...... 1707 Government business shall take precedence of Motions: overn~ment business, Precedence .. 1707 Bussiness Days and Hours, additional._.'"1710 all other Motions and Orders of the Day. witness Drayton, Release from Prison, to be 1714 This was a usual motion at this stage of Bal.sz EarlyConsidered Closing Act Amendment.. (fruit shops), first rending...... 1707 the session. There was practically no Supply (No. 4). £250,000. all stags.....1712 important business by private members licensing Act Suspension, thir reading ,.1714 Annual Estimates resumed, Mines (discussion on the Notice Paper at the present time. geealy) ...... 1725 There were one or two privaite Bills on the paper, which he hoped members MR, SPEAKER took the Chair at would have an opportunity of dealing 3-30 o'clock, p.m. with without any difficulty. He desired to,* as far as possible, consult the con- PRAYERS. venience and likewise the health of members, and therefore he was anxious that the House should not sit for any QUESTION - SOUTH-WESTE RN RAIL- WAY DUPLICATION. undue length of time through the sum- mer months. The motion was submitted Ma. GORDON (for Mr. N. J. Moore) with the object 6f furthering that view, asked the Minister for Railways: r, MR. J. 0. G. FOULKES (Claremont): What was the total cost of duplication of Already he had intimated to the Premier the South-Western Railway between that he was not satisfied with the bon. Perth and Armadale? 2, .Was such gentleman's procedure in -regard to the duplication provided for out of revenueP treatment of a Bill which he (Mr. Foulkres) TUEz MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS had introduced. He referred to the replied: ', The duplication between Roads Act Amendment Bill, which -was Burswood and Armadale cost approxi- down on the Orders of the Day to be mately;£30,000. 2, No. The work 'has taken after the Estimates. He com- been charged to Additions and Improve- plained of this, particularly when he com- ments to, Opened, Railways. pared the treatment the hon. gentleman had given to members who happened to QUESTION-ROADS TO SOUTH BEACH, sit on his own side of the House. He CLOSURE. specially referred to a Bill introduced by Ma. DIAMOND asked the Minister for the member for Forrest, called the DisRtress Railways, Whether it was the intention for Rent Restriction Bill, which was dis- of the Railway Department to close any cussed yesterday. This Roads Act roads or streets leading from the Man- Amendment Bill was purely a formal dui-ahand Rockinghiam Roads to the South one. There was no objection to it in Beach, and if so what roads and streets this House, and it had already been were affected? passed by the Assembly last session, but THE ]MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS unfortunately it was thrown out for replied: It is proposed to close afl the certain reasons in another place. streets between Lord Street acd Robb's Although he had the usual statements Jetty, which are as follows. :-Lord Street, and general assurances from the Premier South Street, Louisa Street, Right-of- that ho hoped there would be no difficulty Way, Rose Street, Ada Street, Florence in the passing of this Bill, he knew the Street, Sydney Street, By-the-Sea Road, hon. gentleman well enough now to know Road at Smelting that general assurances of that character Works, Road at Robb's were really not of much assistance to any Jetty. member, and be complained bitterly- Mit. MlORAN: The hon. member was BILL, FIRST READING. not going the way to get his Bill put EAhLY CLosING ACT AMENDMENT, through. introduced by the Minister for Railways Mn. FOUTLKES was speaking exactly and Labour. as he felt on the subject. He did not 1708 Ootvernwent Biaineus: [ASSnELY.] Precedence. consider he had been dealt with fairly in This motion was that Government busi- connection with this particular Bill. ness should take precedence. Surely if There was no opposition whatever to the we said that such should be the case measure. He naturally complained of after next Wednesday, that would be the favouritism, shown to members who reasonable; but to say that from to-day happened to sit on the same side as the all members' private business should go Premier. He dlid not think he should be by the board was rather too severe. condemned because he did not happen to Last year the motion was moved on the sit on the same side as the hon. gentle- 22nd October, to take effect after the man. The Premier bad not treated him 28th. No matter what session of Parlia- fairly, but he still hoped the hon. gentle- ment one looked ait, it was most unusual, man would see that on the Orders of the and unreasouable to a great extent, to Day for next Tuesday the Bill would take suddenly, without warning, render it the place which it had occupied during impossible for private members' business the last two days. to proceed. He hoped the Premier MR. C. H. RASON (Guildford); Jt would accept the amendmient in the was true, as the Premier said, that late spirit in which it was made. It would in the session it was general for such a have been following the usual procedure motion as this to appear; but let him if he (Mr. Rason) had asked for a week's remind the bon. gentleman that it was not-ice, but the hon. gentleman would see also usual for more notice to be given that he had onlyv given one private mem- than was given in this instance. Ile had bers' day. never yet known a motion which practi- Mn. W. B. GORDON (Canning) cally wiped out private members' business seconded the amendment. to come into effect the day after notice of THE PPtEMIER: In reply to the such motion was given. Last year, for member for Guildford, one need only say instance, a week's notice was given. The that the hon. member gave the strongest Premier stated that there was no impor- reply to his own argument when he tant business amongst the motions intro- pointed out that last year, in a much duced by private members. He (Mr. longer session, private members' busi- Rason) took it therefore that in the hon. ness was entirely suspended as early as gentleman's opinion increased payment October, whereas in this instance it was to members, State ownership of coal allowed to run on until December. Where mines, State fire insurance, the spread of there was any special urgent private tick cattle from East to West Kimberley, members' business brought forward the and Several other matters were of no im- House would, he was sure, support him portance. There should be at least one in giving an opportunity for its dis- day left for private members. It was cussion, and he was certain likewise that rather too harsh treatment to move a mewbrs who had looked down the motion to-day which would come into Notice Paper would recognise that there effect at the very next sitting of the were comparatively few subjects, if any, House. There could not be any desire to under notice by private members which throw obstacles in the way, but the necessitated in the interests of the desire rather was that the usual pro- community immediate discussion during cedure should be adopted in this instane. the course of this session. He therefore He begged to move an amendment: was fully justified in asking that the That the words "for the remainder of the House should accept the motion he had session" be struck out with a diew of inserting already moved. His only desire in pro- -after Wednesday, December the 14th." posing it was, as he had stated at That gave only the next private members' the outset, to consider the convenience day, and it was not a week's notice. and -advantage of the members. He Surely there could be nothing very objec- had no other purpose to serve; and tionable in the amendmelit. as he had requests from both sides of the Mu. MORAN tWe should lose to- House to expedite the closing of the morrow. session, he was endeavouring to carry MR. RASON: The question of to- out hon. members' wishes. He regretted morrow or when we should be able to that the member for Claremont (Mr. prorogue did not enter into this subject. Foulkes) thought it necessary to be Government Rusinem: [8 DzeemuEtt, 1904.] GovenmetPrecedence.Bsinss: [8 ECZBEE 194.1 1709 personally offensive to him. Surely no A. J. Wilson). If the member for member who had sat in the House Claremont was aware of the practice of during his (the Premier's) parliamentary the House, he would know that a Bill career could accuse him of misleading which had reached the report stage was either individual members or the House, invariably put among the first Orders of or of discourtesy to any member, no the Day, irrespective of who bad intro- matter what his polities. Surely mem- duced it; therefore the Bill of the bers in Opposition, as well as those on member for Forrest was in its proper the Government side, must admit that he position on the Notice Paper. (the Premier) had been uniformly MR. FoluLuss: Then why was not the courteous and considerate to both sides; same procedure adopted regarding the and he was astonished that because the Transifer of Land Bill, which had member for Claremont's Bill was slightly reaced the report stageP lower on the Notice Paper than that of a, Tas PREMIER : Some members Government supporter, the hon. member reminded. him of spoilt children ; and it should make such remarks. was hardly worth while to notice their Mn. FoULsEs:- It was more than petty interjections. If the hon. member slightly Jqwer, as the Premier knew. desired it, the House would be told the The Premier was only misleading the reason for the personal aifensiveness he House. had for weeks past displayed toward him MR. NEEDHAM:- Sbould that observa- (the Premier). Ever since a new Agent tion be made P General was appointed. for Western Aus- Mn. SPRAYER: The observation tralia, the hon. member's criticisms in must be withdrawn. the House were offensive to every member MR. FoULKES withdrew the observation. of the Ministry; and he had not hesitated TEEg PREMIER: If the Bill had not to make all sorts of nasty insinuations, been soon enough considered by this without having the courage to make a House, the fault lay with the hon. mem- direct attack. ber who gave notice of it; who knowing AIR. FOULKES: Was the Premier in that it was needed, and that it had been order in accusing him of making nast 'y ,discussed in vain last session, waited till insinuations, and in imputing motives? the fag end of the present session before Mn. SPEAKER: The Premier, if he thought it worth while to bring it in. impting motives to the hon. member, MR. FOULKES (in explanation): was out of order; but the imputation Possibly the Premier was not aware that was not obvious. it was not necessary to introduce the Bill TE7E PREMIER: The motives were till the Estimates were available; and imputed by the hon. member; and he the Bill would now be farther advanced (the Premier) had stated the reason for but that the Minister for Works moved the the imputation of those motives. adjournment of the second-reading debate. MR. FOUILKES. Was the Premier in Tnu PREMIER: What important order in imputing motives? bearing had* this explanation on his Ma. SPEAKER bad not heard the remarksP As soon as the Bill was Premier impute motives. tabled, the hon. member asked him to THE: PREMIER: All were aware that give, an opportunity for its discussion; a discussion of this sort did not enhance and it was accordingly put before Govern- the dignity of the Mouse; but there must ment business on the succeeding day. It be some consideration and forbearance would have been impossible to do more. shown on the part not of one member of The Minister for Works moved the the House but of all. It was time for adjournment of the debate on the Bill some forbearance to be shown by mem- for the purpose of allowing another bers other than the Premier. He had Opposition member (Mr. H. Brown) an been showing forbearance throughout the opportunity of tabling certain amend- session, but there were limits even to the ments. The Minister was actuated by a forbearance he could display; and be desire to serve an Opposition member. asked members to assist him in con- To-day's Notice Paper contained, a. little ducting the business of the Houses with higher up than. that Bill, a Bill intro- dignity and decorum. He asked from duced by the member for Forrest (Mr. the Opposition the same forbearance and 1710 Goveranment Business. [ASSEMBLY.] Business Days. the same fair treatment that he had their constituents. There was no need always endeavoured to extend to them. to repeat some of those strong criticisms, He regretted the necessity for defending but the Government must be prepared himself from the attack of the member for criticism in the future. The Premier for Claremont, and repeated to the House claimed that since the appointment of the assurance privately given to the lion. the Agent General his (Mr. Foulkes's) member, that he (the Premier) would attitude towards the Premier had been try to give the bon. member an oppor- offensive. It was an ungracious state- tunity of passing the Bill through the ment. If there was any offence shown House during this week; not in order to it was unintentional. The Premier could oblige or to assist the hon. member, but be assured that he would receive the to enable the House to deal with a sub- same measure of criticism in the future ject believed to be of some importance. from him (Mr. Foulkes) as he had re- MR. FOULKES frankly adlmittdd that ceived in the past. he had strongly criticised the Premier Amendment put, and a division taken and some of his colleagues; and it was with the following result:- well that those criticisms appeared to Ayes ...... 14 have had some effect. But for no criti- Noes ...... 26 cism he bad passed on their conduct of public affairs had he ever been called to Majority against ... 12 order by Mr. Speaker or by any Govern- AYES. Not. ment supporter. His criticisms were Mr. rown Mr. Angwin political criticisms: and he would con- Mr. =uge Mr. Bath Mr ao Mr. Jiolton tinue to criticise if he thought. fit. He Mr. Diamaond Mr. Botcher was not elected to sit muzzled in this Mr. Foulkes Mr. Connor Mr. Hardwick Mr. Daglish House. Perhaps the Premier expected Mr. Hayward Ms. EllM him to sit in dumb admiration Mr. Hick Mr. Hare of the boa. Mr. Laya Mr. Hate member's political career. Mrt.N. J. More Mr. Heitman, Mr. S. P. Moore Mr. Henshaw THE P&Ehrxn only expected the hon. Mr. Eason Mr. Holm. member to be gentlemanly. Mr. Frank Wilson Mr. no.n Mr. Gordon (Teller). Mr. Johnson MR. FOULKES had maintained a, Mr. Keyser gentlemanly attitude which gave no cause for complaint. He regretted that the Mr. Needham Mr. Nelsn Premier was so thin-skinned as to accuse Mr. Scoddan him of personaloffensiveness forecriticising Ms. Taylor 'Mr. Thomeas the Premier's action. If his criticisms Mr. Watts had appeared personally offensive, he Mr. A. J. Wilson Mr. F. F. Wilson could assure the Premier that this was Mr. Gill (Tel"e). never intended; and no other Minister Amendment thus negatived. had made such a complaint. He would Question put and passed. appeal to the Minister for Justice, whom be had at all times assisted. BUSINESS DAYS AND HOURS, MR. MORAN: That was professional ADDITIONAL. brotherhood. Tas PREMIER (Hon. H. Daglish) MR. FOUILKES had not suffluent pre- moved: sumption to approach the other dis- That for the remainder of the session, unless tinguished Ministers who had attained to othearwise ordered, the House shall meet for the the dignity of seatts on the Treasury despatch of business on Tuesdays, Wednes- bench as often as he had approached day, Thursdays, and Fridays, at 2'3Op.m.; and Ministers in the past. Some great trans, shall sit until 6-30 if necessary, and if formation seemed to have come over requisite from 7,30 onwards. Ministers; but they must expect criticism This, if carried, would mean that the from the Opposition side of the House. House must sit to-morrow; but he did The mere fact that they were members of not wish to ask members to submit to a Government did not preclude them any inconvenience. It would be im-- from it; but the criticism they bad re- possible to sit after tea to-morrow; and ceived from the Opposition had been far if it were the will of the House he would milder than that levelled against them by accept an amendment to the effect that Businese Day8 [8 DECEmup% 1904.1 BusiessDayanId H-ours [8Dscjus, 104. 1711 the motion should not come into opera- and that would take considerable time. tion until next week. The motion had This was a subject no one should try to been worded to apply this week because scamp over. Many Bills were before the he (the Premier) was aware that many Housewbich it would be utterly impossible members who usually went away from the to deal with before Christmas, among city on Friday morning would be staying them being the Public Service Bill, the in town this week all Friday, and because Mlunicipal Institutions Act Amendment he had thought members might desire to Bill, the Machinery Bill, the Licensing spend their unoccupied hours in attend- Act Suspension Bill, the Railway Traffic ing to the business of the country during Bill, the Transfer of Land Act Amend- the afternoon rather than following some inent Bill, and the Public Health Bill. lighter form of work or recreation. The last was one of the Most imlportant, THn MINISTER FOB RAILWAYS if not the most important, of the measures (Hon. J. B. Holman) seconded the brought down this session; and a select motion. committee on that Bill at the request of Mn. C. H. RASON (Guildford) : In the chairman-one of the Ministers- this as in the other ease he intended had been granted extension of time to to take a course which he believed was bring up its report, and would not report the proper constitutional course. In until the 23rd of December. If that Bill to the last vote some members was to go through this Rouse and to badregr hought fit to take certain action pass another place, it would be impossible which would be remembered in the to prorogue before Christmas. Did it future; but in regard to this motion, so mean that the Bill was to be thrown far as he was concerned he would have no overboard amongst other Bills of more or objection to sitting four days in the week less importance? There were several if it would serve any good purpose. He select committees to report whose time understood the desire was that the House for reporting had been extended. The should he prorogued before Christmas. Hamel select committee was to report on Was it at all likely ? It was perfectly the 20th December. Was that also to go impossible for the House to be prorogued overboard ? Then again several promised before Christmas; at any rate, it was Bills were looked for with great interest. extremely improbable. The Referendutm (Legislative Council) MR- NrsEDNAM: It all depended upon Bill had not yet been dealt with. Was the Opposition. that to be dropped F Was no action to MR. RASON was glad the hon. mem- be taken in regard to it? ber bad made that admission. Last year Ma. MlonAN: An effort should be at this period the Estimates were much made to save them somehow. farther advanced than the Estimates MR. RASON recognised it depended were to-day; and public business generally on the member for West Perth whether in regard. to Bills was much farther the Bills were to be dropped or not, and advanced. Last year the Rouse sat five it was satisfaction that the hon. member days a week, and every effort was made to would endeavour to see that some of get through beore Christmas, but it was them were pasised. It would be utterly found utterly impossible. impossible. if the subjects mentioned Tan Pzmmuni: That was owing to a were the onkv business to come before difference between the two Houses. the House, to prorogue before Christmas. MR. itASON : This House adjourned However, having last year agreed to sit on the 23rd December until the 12th of five days a week, he could not oppose the January. The position of public busi- motion; but if members thought that by ness now was that we had made little sitting four days a week -they were progress with the Estimates, and that we going to secure the prorogation of still had the Loan Estimates to come Parliament before Christmas, 0they were down. We would also, he presumed, 1much mistaken. He had an amuendmnent have a Loan Bill down for five or six prepared, and was glad the Premier millions, for that would be the least woul have no objection to it. The amount that would cover the recent pro- motion as it was ;worded would mean posals in regard to public works. Also we that the House should sit on the extra were to discuss the immigration proposals, day from and including to-morrow. 1712 Business Days and Hours. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply Bill.

It would be very unfair to some country morrow. He doubted if there would be members who had reasonably hoped that a quorum if the arrangement came in they would be able to return home force to-morrow. to-morrow. The -y came up to attend the MR. R. G. BURGES (York): Con-. sittings of the House, never dreaming tiv members attended pretty regularly. that a motion would be brought forward He had made arrangements to go away to-ay to come into operation to-morrow. this evening or early in the morning. It He moved an amendment: took some country members nearly all That the words "for the remainder of the the latter end of the week to get home, session" be struck out, and "after Monday, and then they had to be back by the December 12th " be inserted in lieu. following Tuesday. Last session Parlia- MR. W. B. GORDON (Canning) ment Sat from 11 o'clock am. and all seconded the amendment. night to get through the business, but did MR. C. HARPER (Beverley) supported nut do so. It was to be hoped the House the amendment. It certainly was not would be able to get through the business fair that the Government should ask before the end of the year. members to break engagements. We TnE PREMIER said he bad intimated, had been in the habit of relying on Iwhen moving the motion, that he would Friday for private engagements, and if willingly accept the amendment which bhad the Government knocked that day out it been moved. He reiterated the statement. meant that members would have to Amendment passed, and the motion as forfeit their private engagements or amended agreed to. absent themselves from the House. That was not a position the Government should put members in. There was this SUPPLY BILL (No.4),.225,OoO. difference between the present amend- STANDING ORDERS SUSPENSION. ment and the amendment to the last THE PREMIER AND TREALSURER motion: the last amendment had for its (Hon. H. Daglish) moved (in reference object an extension of debate and dis- t the Supply Bill introduced pre- cussion in the House. We had had such viously), to the effect that the House wearisome debatesof late thathe (Mr. Har- do resolve into Committee of Supply per) would do all he could to curtail them. and Committee, of Ways and Means, MR. HAYWARD (Wellington) pro- also that the Standing Orders be tested againstthe proposal tositte-morrow. suspended to permit of the Bill being Those members who came long distances passed at one sitting. He said that as made their arrangements for Friday, the the Estimates had not yet been passed, only day they had in the week. It was to it became necessary to again appeal beh oped the Premier would not press the to the House to grant supplies to motion, but allow the amendment to pass. carry on the ordinary services for another Ma. W. J. BUTCHER (Gascoyne): month. The total amount asked for was The Premier should consider the request Ionly .225,000. Of course the Estimates of the country members, and try on this indicated the direction in which the one occasion to meet their convenience. money would be expended. It had been He quite believed in having an extra suggested that it should not be necessary, sitting day to complete the work of the after the Estimates had beon presented to session as soon as possible, and to have Parliament, to introduce a Supply Bill extra, sitting hours; he was prepared at all; but the passing of the Estimates even to go farther than that. But to start or any par did not enable the Treasurer to-morrow, when members had made to provdersupplies to carry on the work arrangements for their private business, of government. It was merely an indi- was very inconvenient. Though he (Mr. cation as to how the money should be Butcher) lived in town, he bad country disposed of. The passing of any parti- business that called him away from the cular estimates did not appropriate for city at the end of every 'week, and he had the service of the financial year the money already made arrangements to leave town necessary to be appropriated for the pur- to-morrow. It would be inconvenient for Spose of that department. The only him and for many muembers if the arrange- ganting of Supply which resulted from ment to sit on Friday commenced to- the passing of the Estimates was that Supply Bill [8 DECEMBER, 1904.] Sq~pyin committee.Bll: [S E~nBER194.] 1718 which was obtained by means of the being from loan and half a million from passing of an Appropriation Bill. revenue, and on the 22nd September MR. RisoN: Would it not be better to another Supply Bill was brought in for have the discussion on the second read- half a million of money out of revenue. ingP No farther Supply Bill was brought in. THn TREASURER: It was hoped we The Estimates were not brought down could deal with the whole question on the Until the 6th October, and not passed motion for the suspension of the Stand- until the end of December. If it was ing Orders. There need not be any re- possible last year to do with only two opening of the matter subsequently. The Bills for a million and a half, and if it suspension of the Standing Orders was was not necessary to bring a Supply Bill after all the main point of his request. down after the 22nd October, be failed to If the whole Estimates had been passed, understand why it was now necessary to that would not make supply available for ask for farther supply, and he altogether the purpose of carrying on until the failed to understand how it should be a Estimates had been embodied in an matter of such extreme urgency as to Appropriation Bill, and that Bill had justify the Treasurer in asking m~embers gone through both Houses of Parliament. to suspend the Standing Orders. So far Members therefore understood that as the granting of supplies was con- although the Estimates had been intro- cerned he would raise no objection, but to duced, they did not place the Treasurer in suspend the Standing Orders he certainly a differeiit or bettor position than he was would object. Hie did not think the in before the Estimates were introduced. House would be justified in suspending The Estimates simply laid before members the Standing Orders to pass the Supply the precise lines on which it was proposed, Bill through all stages, at ibis period of if the Supply Bill were granted, that the the month and at this stage of the year. supply would be used. Therefore tothat The Treasurer could not say it was of extent members were in a position to vital importance that this Supply Bill understand the precise manner in which should pass through to-day instead of this quarter of a million of money would Tuesday. If the Treasurer would con. be disposed of if approved by the House. sent to take the Bill through its stages in This was expenditure solely from the the usual course without suspending the Consolidated Revenue Fund, and the Standing Orders, be personally would be money would be expended in the direction glad to give the hon. gentleman every indicated by the Estimates now before assistance; but he certainly objected as the House. a matter of principle to the suspension of THE MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS the Standing Orders except in case of seconded the motion. urgency, and there could be no urgency Mn. RASON (Gdiildford) gathered on the present occasion. from the Treasurer that the main point Question passed, and the Standing was the suspensionof the Standing Orders. Orders suspended. No member of the Opposition would Formal resolutions in Committee of attempt to refuse supply; but the suis- Supply and Committee of Ways and pension of the Standing Orders was Means passed and reported, the reports justified only in matters of extreme adopted. urgenc 'Y. Was it possible that it was a matter of extreme urgency that the SUPPLY BILL. Supply Bill should pass through all Bill read a second time, without debate. stages to-day P Already supplies to the amotint of one and three quarter millions IN COMMITTEE. had been voted, and if this Supply Bill Clause 1--Issue and. application of went through, supplies to the amount of £250,000: two millions would have been voted. MR. RSON merely wished to again In addition to that we had already passed enter his formial protest against the pro- on the Estimates roughly one and a- cedure which bad been adopted to-day. quarter millions of money. Last year a If it was a matter of extreme urgency Supply Bill was brought in ou the 22nd that this Bill should pass through to-day July for a million of money, half a million instead of on Tuesday next, the affairs of 1714 1Supply Bill.,ASML. [ASSEMBLY.] Wifi~eaDatn ness Drayton. the Treasury must be in a, shocking con- MR. RASOu: The hon. member bad dition, which he regretted very much. asked for half as much again. To his mind there was absolutely no THE TREASURER: Oh no. The justification for the procedure which had first Supply Bill put through was one been adopted. He could not imagine introduced by the hon. member, which how there possibly could be any justifi- proposed to appropriate £1,000,000. As cation. He would be glad if the Treasurer yet he (the Treasurer) had only asked would explain the circumistances. for amounts of £600,000 and z6250,000, THE TREASURER: This ypear it had therefore the hon. member would see the been necessary to introduce a Bill in difference between his (the Treasurer's) order to carry on before the Estimates modesty and the bon. member's-what were passed by Parliament. The House should he call it? [Laughter.] He was entitled to particulars as to the method trusted the hon. member would recognise in which the money voted was expended, the fact that he would not have come and in the Estimates of Expenditure forward with this Bill asking for supply, which had been laid before the Corn- and would Dot have asked for a suspeni- mnittee full information in regard to the sion of the Standing Orders, had it not matter had been given. The hon. mem- been necessary. Until a week ago lie ber had to bear in mind that on this was hopeful it would be unnecessary for occasion he (the Treasurer) had adopted him to again ask for supply before the an unprecedented course in giving the Estimates were passed. amount of notice to the House which had Clause put and passed. been given, He questioned very much if Clause 2-agreed to. the hon. member could find an instance Title, Preamble-agreed to. where so extended a notice had been given. Resolutions reported, and the report Mn. RAsozn: The last Supply Bill adopted. he (Mr. Rason) introduced was before Bill read a third time, and transmitted the House for nearly a fortnight, he to the Legislative Council. thought. THE TREASURER: There were ex- LICENSING ACT SUSPENSION BILL. ceptional circumstances at the beginning Read a thutd time, and transmitted to of a financiW- year. It would not be to the Legislative Council. the ad vantage of the Treasurer to ask for supply needlessly. To ask for supply WITNESS DRAYTON, RELEASE FROM was one of the unpleasant duties of a PRISON TO BE CONSIDERED. Treasurer's lot. If the hon. member con- tended that there was any impropriety in 11a. 0. J. MORAN (West Perth): It the matter of expenditure, hie (the will be remembered that a few weeks ago Treasurer) would be quite prepared to there occurred a novel evcnt in the his- meet, discuss, and he hoped disprove tory of this Parliament-thbe refusal of a such a contention. In regard to the witness to be sworn before a select com- degree of urgency, we had not only to mittee. It was then thought desirable- secure the passage of the Bill through in fact there was no other possible course this Chamber, but also hefore supply was for this Parliament to adopt in order to available secure the passage of the assert its authority-to imprison the per- measure through another place, and to son in question. The one and only get Ilis Excellency's assent. 'Whilst re- object of the resolution then passed wa;s grtigit had been necessary for him to to vindicate the authority of Parliament; make application for supply on a second to show the country that in matters of occasion- he thought this was the second this kind Parliament was supreme. I occasion on which he had applied-[M.%r. move:- Bisow: The thirdjj-he would point out i, That the authority of Parliament in the that had he on the last occasion followed matter of John Drayton has been fully vindi- the example of his friend opposite, and catted. 2, That this being the first offence of asked its kind, the great power of Parliament does for just double the amount be did,' not need to be enforced to exact the fall he would not have needed to come down penalty. 3, That it would be amercifulact on to the Hfouse and ask for supply on the the part of this House to requieat the leader of present occasion. the House and the leader of the Opposition to Witness Drayton: [8 DECFAIRER, 1904.] WitessDratonto consider[8DECMBE,104j Release. 1715 consult with the hon. the Speaker, with a tion, none will be more pleased than 1, view to the release of the said John Drayton. because I think he ought to be, and I The motion explains itself. For many believe he always has been, consulted in days past I have been actuated by a the matter. f am simply naming the desire to bring this before the House, leader of the House to cover the whole feeling that the introduction of the new House, none knowing better than the prison regulations has practically placed leader of the Opposition that I hilly the man in question in solitary confine- appreciate his position as being in mat- ment, and that Parliament did not intend ters of this kind second only to the those regulations to apply to him. In Premier. I think we shall lose nothing, speaking of the regulations I admit that even if the released man'- vaunts that the Government did their simple duty by Parliament has bad to let him go. making regulations for a new class of What does Parliament care? The prisoner. That must needs be done. power of Parliament has been vindicated. We must have regulations to govern Enough said, enough done. As to the prison life. But such regulations having fines, I do not think this country will come into force after JTohn Drayton had worry much about whether Mr. Drayton been in prison for a fortnight or so, the is compelled to pay at few pounds. That passing of the regulations will look to matter is too petty for consideration. I the outside world as if Parliament wished mnake a formal mo tion so that the Speaker, to increase the punishment inflicted on the leader of the House, and the leader of Drayton. Nobody in this Parliament the Opposition may confer. This is no ever dreamt of so doing ; and I am cer- mandate of Parliament, no direction that tain that the Government in passing the Drayton shall be released; but merely regulations had no such intention. I thtteHouse shall be informed whether Cannot imagine anyone in this parlia- it has the power to release him. I main- ment considering the personality of tain it has; but after consultation with Drayton as being involved with Parlia- the bou. th e Speaker, I find he holds that nmentary dignity. What is our objectP a motion which is a direct mandate to Must we exact the punishment in its full release Dray ton cannot be passed. With measuree Must the great power of Par- due respect I hold an entirely different liament, our undoubted authority over view; but in order that Mr. Speaker be the liberty of the subject, be used to consulted in the matter, I move that the exact the full penalty from a man who, gentlemen mentioned consult together after all said and done, may have thought with a view to the release oflJohn Drayton. and may still think that he was fighting I take the view that the power that im- for the privileges of the fourth estate? prisons can set free. No matter how At the time I strongly supported the many resolutions were passed by this action of Parliament. I have been for Parliament, we shall not stultify them 11 years in this Parliament, and am as by passing a resolution to release Drayton. fully cognisant of its privileges and its No man is imprisoned by any court;which dignity as is any other member in this cannot set him free. This question is Chamber. None has been more willing not personal to any member of the House. than I to defend these at all times We must not ixi our personalities with and piaces. But I am cognisaut also of IParliament. We are but passing flies the insignificance of the offender and his on the great parliamentary Machine. But offence. We have heard to-day from the I say that whatever was necessaryv has leader of the Opposition-and he does been done. A lesson has been taught. not speak without knowing what he I hope the like will never occur again; means, having his party behind him- andl1 think Parliament should be inag- that there is no chance of our proroguin naimous in its power, remembering the before Christmas; and I say it would be old saying that gracef ul on the part of this Parliament The quality of mercy is not strained. to ask the bon, the Speaker and the leader of thme House-who after all is M1R. SPEAKER: As to this matter, only our mouthpiece, whose hands are *I have already been consulted. The tied-to consult together; and if anyone terms of the resol utions prev iou sly passed wishes to add the leader of the Opposi- *appear to me to create a difficulty which 1716 Witness Drayton: [SEBY][ASSEMBLY.] tto coneiderosdrRlae Release. at the moment I do not see my way to aupporting the motion. I should like overcome. The resolution in pursuance the mover and other members to support of which Drayton was committed orders my, statement that we are not taking this that John Drayton be imprisoned in the action with a view to persopal advertise- custody of the Sergeant-at-Arms in the ment, but because we feel, notwithstanding gaol at F'remantle " until such fine has the abuse which may be heaped upon us been paid or until the end of the now by certain sections of the Press, no existing session, whichever event shall matter how virulent, how false, and bow first happen." This clearly lays down unjust their attacks may be we can rise that Dray'ton must he imprisoned until superor to them and say that the House, the end of the existing session, or until havig vindicated its dignity, does not the fine shall be paid. Without rescind- desire to go any farther. I do not think ing the resolution already passed, we punishment is intended to give pain, to cannot pasgs a farther resolution dealing the offender, but rather to prevent other with the mnatter. The constitutional people from committing similar offences. method is, before passing a resolution Parliament has in this case vindicated altering a resolution already passed, to itself with regard to Mr. Drayton, or the rescind the former resolution. It is person generally known by the name of sometimes necessary to rescind even Bills Drayton. There is no need to go farther. which have passed through all their It is no pleasure to mu or to other mem- stages but have not been assented to. If bers to know that this person is now we now wish to release Drayton before languishing in prison at Fremnantle. It the end of the existing session or before will give me great pleasure if Mr. Speaker, the fine has been paid, then, so far as I the Premier, and the leader of the Op- have been able to discover, the only position confer together to ascertain by method is to rescind the former resolution; what means we may secure Drayton's and if we rescind that resolution, we release, shall render our previous action illegal. Tim PREMIER (Hon. H. Daglish): That is the constitutional difficulty ; bnt I feel some degree of doubt as to what if it be the desire of the House, the diffi- action I shall take in regard to this culty may possibly be overcome. motion. The member for Guildford will Mn. MORAN: Xy motion is not for not mind if I state that some little time the release of John .Drayton. Tt suggests ago he communicated with me, and that Mr. Speaker and the leader of the Isuggested that I might move in the House shall inquire into the point which direction of asking the House to sanction you, Mr. Speaker, have raised. With *the release of 31r. Drayton; and I replied great respect, I feel satisfied it would be to the effect that, in my opinion, an absurdity if Parliament had not under the preliminary should be that Mr. such conditions the power of an ordinary IDray ton should submit, by potition, to court to release a man from prison. I the will of Parliament. I have been all am. satisfied that such power exists; for along willing and anFious to facilitate his this session might go on indefinitely, and release, though personally I have no .Drayton might be unable to pay the flue. feeling whatever in regard to the case. Is it contemplated that his imprisonment * I have a desire only to see that Parlia- should in that event be so unduly long? ment is respected, and to see that its In deference to your rulinig, sir, I suggest committees9 receive reasonable respect and that you consult with the leaders of the assistance from citizens generally in House, and that the House be informed 9carrying out the duties this House has of the result. My motion neither com- imposed on them. Farther than that, I mands nor suggests that the House have no feeling whatever in regard, to this wishes Drayton to be released. It is a matter; and had any petition been pre- motion for inquiry merely, with a view to sented to this House concerning the his release. release of Drayton weeks ago, I should MxR. A. A. HORAN (Yilgarn):. As the have been happy indeed to have dlone my person who was largely responsible for best to secu re the granting of the petition. setting in motion the machinery of It seems to me it is altogether a matter Parliament in order to vindicate the for this House to deeidh the proper course dignity of this House, I have pleasure in 1to adoipt in regard to a case like this. I Witness Drayton : [8 DECEMBER, 1904.1 Witnsso consider~ayon: ~8 DCEMER,190.] Rkelease. 1704 do not think any member has ever dlesired challenged, as far as I am aware. I or does desire to punish any individual have not seen in the Press, nor have I whatever; I do not think any member heard anything in this House or outside has any feeling one way or the other in of it, in the direction of criticising the regard to this case. It is true that bertain precise form and character of these regulaa regulations have been made by the tious. In regard to this particular man, I Government in regard to first-class mis1.- recognise. that the House has full power deineans~ts. This, I believe, is the first with respect to the method in which it instance in which there has been a will deal with the case. The motion is first-class misdemeanant ineatrcerated in somewhat indefinite. It providesthat the Western Australia; and when the event Speaker and the leader of the Opposition happened, it came within the know- and myself shall confer in regard to ledge of the Government through the this matter. I shall always be happy to representations of the prison officers that confer with the bon. the Speaker and my there were no regulations whatever deal- friend the member for Guildford on this ing with that class of offender, and the or any other subject, and I do not think question arose as to what regulations f need offer any objection to the terms in 'should be adopted. It was certainly which the motion is cast. I simply ask necessary that some should be adopted. members, in dealing with the motion, to In dealing with this matter the Govern- consi~der whether we should not expect, mneait looked into the question of the before taking any definite action, that the regulations in force in the mother country, man affected should address himself to and adopted them without alteration1 the House in the shape of a petition, without either improving, them on the Ma.. 0. H. RASON (Guildford): Itis one hand or interfering with them in the true that I approached the Premier in other direction. I think the Government respect to Mr. Drayton. Members will, took a perfectly right and proper and I am sure, realise that having been so corse in adopting some regu- many years in the service of Western lations.necesar Wh ether thes wee proper regu- Australia, T have the dignity of Parlia- lations. or whether we should have drawn ment as near to me as any othier member; up another scale of regulations from our but thinking over this Drayton episode, own ideas, is another question. I looked it has appeared to me that the honour of carefully into the nature of the regula- Parliament and the privileges of Parlia- tions before I agreed to them, and the ment have been sufficiently upheld, andtha-t Government consulted with the legal Drayton ought to be regarded as a politi- advisers of the Crown in regard to their cal prisoner. He has been committed to fitness. It has been contended that prison for contempt of Parliament. I at Parliament never intended these regula- first thought that Mr. Drayton should tions should apply in this instance; but express regret for the action he took-a in reply to that contention, I can only say most foolish, misguided action, for which that on the same line of argument it there could be no excuse, in my eyes; but would be necessary to order a general when we reflect coolly and calmly over his gaol delivery before any alteration is action, we must realise that he refused to made in prison regulations at any time. give evidence on a certain ground which It might be argued that it was never he thought he was justified in taking. If intended new regulations should be made he ,really did honestly consider himself during the time of the incarceration of justified in taking that action, it is, after any particular individual, or that while a all, rather hardl to say "You shall be prisoner was incarcerated it was not right kept in prison until you admit that you for the Governor-in-Council to make are wrong." That is practically what regulations not previously in existence asking Drayton to petition this Rouse affecting the control of that particular for his release amounts to; and it seems prisoner; but we recognise at once it is a to mie that to some extent we unwittingl somewhat futile argument. I am not did an injustice to Drayton when concerned in it, except to show that the we introduced regulations that had not Government took the very proper course existed before. There is no blame and very necessary course of adopting attachable to the Government in this regulations which, so far, have not been Mnatter. I do not insinuate that 1.718 Witness Drayton.- [ASSEMBLY.]SEBYJ toocnierRlae consider Release. any blamne does attach to the Govern- Ithe remarks of the member for Guild- meat; but when a prisoner, especially a, ford have somewhat confused the issue. political prisoner, is confined in a prison, I understand that this man Drayton con- we have, In my opinion, upon reflection, stituted himself a judge, and that he no right to alter for the worse the condi- maintains that position. Parliament says, tions that existed when he was confined. " You have no right to make yourself a or to alter his surroundings in any respect. judgre, and by so doing yrou have com.- If we follow the practice in regard to any mitted contempt." As long as a man other prisoner, when there is an altera- maintains that position I do not think tion it is an alteration for the better. that the judgment of Parliament is Never are prisoners' surroundings altered satisfied until the term of punishment is for the worse, unless a prisoner has mis- finished. It would be a very simple thing conducted himself in prison. There were for a man in Drayton's position to say, special circumstances in this case, it is -"I see I made a mistake, and I regret I true. Of course it is possible for myself did." That is4 all Parliament wants; but, and for all of us to be exceedingly wise so far as I understand it, the position is after the event. I think myself now that that the man says, '-I made myself a we have made a mistake in fixing the judge, and I maintain I was righ~t in so sustenance charge at £2 2s, a day, though doing." Therefore, if we move to reduce I believe the Standing Orders provide for the penalty, we pass censure upon Parlia- that charge. If there are to be more ment itself b*y saying that we exercised eases of this kind, I submit it will be a wrong judgment, or made an error of wise for us to alter the Standing Orders. judgment in the award of punishment. If we charge a man two guineas a day That is how it appears to me, and I can- sustenance fee, no matter whether he not help thinking it. pays it or not, the man is entitled to two MaR. MORAN : Does that apply to every guineas' worth, and Drayton was com- prisoner who h as at life sentence removed P mitted under these circumstances, being MR. HARPER: This is not a6matter told that he would be charged two guineas of a life sentence. It is a position in for sustenance fee. Manifestly, Drayton which Parliamient has measured out a, was entitled to two guineas' worth. penalty for a deed. DR. ELLIS: It is detention fee, includ- MRh. MORAN: And wants its "pound of ing sustenance. flesh.'' MR. RASON: Sustenance is really MR. HARPER: If we admit a mistake, what it amounts to. I shall be glad to there is a simpler way out of it than that consult with Mr. Speaker and the leader proposed. of the House in conference on this matter; Mr. MoRAN:. Why should we admit a, but it is not much good meeting in con- mistake :e ference to express individual views on the AIR. HARPER: The resolution. admits subject, unless to some extent we have it by saying that Parliament is sufficiently the feeling of the House, and know what vindicated by having its judgment scouted, the House wishes to do. and that its penalty has run sufficiently Kit. Moxa&: The resolution is very long to satisfy Parliament's decision. clear. " that the dignity of Parliament is 1Once wye take that position, we say that vindicated." Parliament gave too ong a sentence. If MR. RASON : This conference is to that is the opinion of the House, there is meet with a view of finding some means a, much simpler way than that proposed, for the release of Drayton. That being and that is by paving the fees out of the so, the issue is clear; and although I State funds and releasing the man. The hold mnyself that there should be some position has not altered so far as the petition before Parliament takes action, if Ivirtue of the case goes. The man persists not by, Mr. Drayton by someone else on Ithat he was quite right in constituting his behalf, now I think we have some himself a judge. If he expressed regret movement in that direction, and we mnaly for his action, there would be ample be justified in moving in the direction ground for Parliament extending its indicated by the member for West Perth. leniency, but for Parliament to say by Ma. C. HAKRPER (Beverley): I can- resolution that it had made a mistake and not help thinking that the motion and had awarded a sentence which had not Witness Drayton: [S I)EcEmBER, f9O4.] WitessDratonto consider[8ECEBER f9&]Release. 1719 been justified does not maintain the as for contempt by fine according to the dignity of Parliament. As far as the Standing Orders of either House, and in the event of such fine not being immediately paid. proposition, that there shall be a con- by imprisonment in the custody of its own ference between Mr. Speaker and the officer, in such place within the colony as the leader on either side of the House, is House, may direct, until such fine shall have concerned it does not appear to be a very been paid, or until the end of the then existing practical one. It is throwing on those session or any portion thereof. members the responsibility of indicating It clearly states under the Act what is the will of Parliament, which Parliament the procedure; consequently there is only should do it~elf. It appears that these one conceivable way of releasing Mr. members cannot take any definite action, Drayton, and that is by the House paying only recommend to the House. Any re- the fine and all charges in connection with commnendation that should be made to his imprisonment. the House should be made on the floor of MRt. RASON: Or any portion thereof. the House after debate and not by private DR. ELLIS: It says: discussion. These members will meet in Until the end of the then existing session or secret conclave and discuss the question. Iany portion thereof. I know of no precedent on this matter. The words " portion thereof " mean por- The question should lie decided in the tion of the session, because the imprison- House, and if it is decided that the Rouse meat occurs during the session. That is has done wrong, it should he done in open where the term " portion thereof " comes Parliament and not in private conclave. in. I am reading from page 46 of the We can all realise the desire of those who Parliamentary Privileges Act, and as I have put forward this motion to release read the Act the only conceivable way of the man from an unpleasant position; releasing Mr. Drayton is by paying the but while that man contends that he is fine for him ; and that should be done by right and Parliament wrong, practically resolution of the House that the fine be we are at a deadlock if we take the Ipaid, when a discussion on the whole matter in that way. I cannot see how matter will come on. I agree there is a Parliament can alter its decision without good deal in the view held by the some act on the part of the sufferer, by Premier, that is that Mr. Drayton has expressing contrition. not consented to he judged by the House DR. ELLIS (Ooolg-ardie): In dealing or purged his contempt in the manner with this question there are two or three open to him. It is a matter for con- phases of considerable importance, and sideration whether it is desirable to the first phase is in regard to rescinding release him. Personally, I think it is a resolution, which seems to me to be a. desirable for two or three, reasons; and wrong move. Mr. Drayton is practically one is, that this is the first time that such imprisoned under the Parliamentary Privi- a thing has occurred. T believe Mr. leges Act, n Act which no resolution of Drayton himself did not think the House the House or any Standing Order of the Ihad the requisite power to imprison House can in any way override. An Act him. of Parliament is superior to any standing MR. BOLTON: That did not excuse Order or resolution of the House, and him. the Act of Parliament distinctly states Dn. ELLIS: I am not excusing him. that he shall remain incarcerated. The First Offenders Act does not excuse a NN. Moutx: The resolution says that. man. Mr. Drayton may have been DR. ELLIS: Ilam dealing with the Act. .labouring under a, mistake. I bold that MR. YORAN: He could not have been very keenly, for I know at the present imprisoned without a resolution. time many people do not understand DR. ELLIS: 1 am aware of that fact, *what the offence was. They still think but he is imprisoned according to a reso- we were trying to infringe the privileges lution passed in accordance with the Act. of the Press. We were doing nothing of The statement in the Act becomes of the kind. Mr. Drayton, or the news- supreme importance when considering the paper with which he was connected, made result. The Act says:- certain charges against certain members Each House of the said Parliament is hereby of the House. This House deemed it empowered to punish in a summary manner desirable to appoint a select committee to 1.720 Witness Drayton; [ASSENBLY]ASML. ioocosdrRlae consider Releasd. inquire into the charges. The select seriously considered when taking the committee naturally and rightly sum- whole question into consideration. Under mioned before them the man who was in the Standing Order on which we acted authority and responsible for the pub- the period of custody is put at 14 dlays, lication of those charges. Mr. Drayton and the 14 days have elapsed. The did not wait to see what questions wvere Privileges Act says the punishment must to be asked him, but refused to give any be in accordance with the Standing evidence whatever, and therein made the Orders, mistake. He would have .been acting THE PREMIER: The fine, not the im- within his rights and within the privileges prieonment, must be in accordance. of the Press-which I myself would most DR. ELLIS:- I 'want to get at where certainly do all I could to protect-if he the difficulty comes in. The imprison- had consented to he sworn and taken ineat is under the Act, and the fine is advantage of the sections of the Act con- under the Standing Orders, but the same cerning privilege, and saved himself Standing Order which dictates the from answering any question that he amount of the fine puts 1.4 days as the wished. Suppose the committee had not period of imprisonment. summoned Mr. Drayton, what would have THE Pum~EF..n For a different offence been the natural inf, rence? That we altogether. refused to call anyone who could bring DR. ELLIS: It says, "in default of legitimate evidence before us. That would immediate payment to be imprisoned for have clearly altered our position. To 14 days." refuse to call such a person who made THE PREMuIR: That is a member or such charges would have been a greater other person. dereliction of duty on our part than any Din. ELLIS: I admit the Premier refusal on the part of the witness to give was a little skilful in trying to put me evidence; therefore we were bound to off the track. Any member or other summon Mr. Drayton, and he was bound rson guilty of contempt may on reso- to be sworn and give such evidence as rution of the Assembly be fined in a, did not interfere with the privileges of penalty not exceeding £250. his calling. As to the privileges of his THE PREMrER: But the contempt is calling, that is a matter very dear to different in the preceding Standing Order. my self, becauso in medicine the privileges It is a different contempt altogether. of our calling often come into conflict Dn. ELLIS: The Standing Order with the administration of justice. I 8s- wish to clear up certain views held In default of immediate payment, be com- universally in this State, opinions which witted by warrant under the hand of the I hear every week when I return to the Speaker, for a period not exceeding 14 dlays, fields. Mr. Drayton's action was abso- to the custody of the Sergean t-at-Arms. lutely wrong even on his own grounds, What I wish to point out is that Drayton and the stand he took up that we were in was committed under the Privileges any way trying to infringe privileges Act, and the fine is inflicted under the that his conscience or the custom of news- Standing Order. This was the Standing papers prevented him from divulging. Order which was quoted when we had to When he was called to give evidence he change the fine from £100 to £50. adopted an attitude that we bad no right Therefore it was under this Standing to call him and he refused to be sworn. Order the fine was imposed. Iquite bold He committed that mistake, misinformed that he was imprisoned rightly, even with as he was. I am not sure whether be the Standing Order as it is, because it thought he was vindicating the privileges says under Section 78 that he must pay of the Press in what he was doing, the two guineas a day. That I mnay but he was doing nothing of the kind. inform the leader of the Opposition is He was vindicating the absurdity of his not for sustenance; as he wishes to own action. Mr. Drayton, when before the imagine he is going to have the luxuries committee, could have pleaded privilege, of Australia immediately placed at his and refused to answer certain questions. disposal. There is another point that comes up, Mx. BisoN: I do not want such and it is a matter which ought to be attention. Witness Drayton: [S DECEMBER, 1904.] Witnssto considerrayon: [8l~cmnn Release.194.] 1721

DR. ELLIS: I am glad be does not. MR. CONNOR: I do not think an One would imagine a sum of two guineas apology is necessary. If the law says a a day for maintenance sufficient for a man is to be fined X5 or suffer imprison- gourmand. The atmount put here is, ment for 24 hours, and the man under- " for each day's detention," and then, goes that punishment, I think he has in brackets, "1including sustenance." purged the offence. And I ask members That means he is not to feed himself, but of this House whether they want to be the two guineas a day is for detention, so vindictive as to hold that man in and sustenance is an after-thought. It durance vile because he made a mistakeP is that two guineas a day which keeps Will members tell me this man is a felonF himn there practically under the Standing I say he is not, but we are treating him as a Order, though if you held on the Act it felon. Perhaps it will come somewhat would not be so. Consequently you have strangely from me as having been abused a considerable number of conflicting in- by every paper in this State inreference to a terests, and I think the matter is one matter somewhat the same as this, only which can fairly be left to those who have more so personally. I think it is been suggested in the motion to disgraceful if that is the position we are favourably' consider this question. It is in. Suppose for example this House a case of a first offender as far as this does not rise for three months, are mem-. matter is Concerned, and he thought at bersto say he shall remain thereallthrougb the time, I am quite convinced, that there the summer and be kept away from his was no power to do what has been done. younfamly? He has to support a We know there was one house in Aus- yo0ung fam1ily.? [MEMBRER, And his tralia which had not the power, and Ilam expected wife]. I think it is hardly fair inclined to think he looked upon that as to bring that phase of the question into a precedent. I think this House will not the argument, although it ought to be lowering its dignity or taking away appeal to members of this House, particu- the powers of its parliamentary position larly some members holding positions on if on the one occasion it adds a hll mercy the Treasury benches. Drayton says: to the justice it already has imposed. ,'I have committed an offence, bitt I MB. F. CONNORt (Kimberleyv): In have been sufficiently punished for it." supporting the motion of the member for Let us ask ourselves, has he been suffi- West Perth, I think members who ciently punished for it? Has a month go back a little while in the history of in gaol not been suffi.'cient for what he Parliament will not accuse me of being has done ? If that is not sufficient too tender in my regard for the members punishment for what he has done, it is of the " fourth estate." I notice that the time that the Act under which he is member for Greenough (Mr. Nanson) is incarcerated at present should be altered, not paying any attention to my remarks. and that Standing Orders should be pro- I would mention in that regard that if vided so that such a thing as this should the Premier will cast his memory back not occur again. I hold it was not the to a debate in this House in 1901 in intention of the House that this man reference to a matter connected with the should be so long in gaol, when the reso- lution was passed which committed him Press when a Bill was before this House,' I am sure he will remember that I then to gaol. Supposing a man struck or expressed an opinion that undue punish- assaulted a member of this House, he ment should not be given to anybody, would be brought before the police magis- even if.a reporter. I have seen the gentle- trate, and surely the offence would be man in question within the last week, and quite as serious as that for which Drayton I have no hesitation in telling members has been committed. What would one's he is not in any defiant mood. punishment be for that? Perhaps 24 HoN. F. H. Pmssss: Let him apologise, hours in gaol; but it certainly would not then. he a month in gaol. The member for Giuildford put the position fairly clearly MR, CONNOR: I do not think he has when he said that after this man has put any right to apologise. up with the punishment he has had to HON. F. H. PIESSE : He ought to undergo, he himself would consider it an express his regret. injustice for him to be asked to apologise 1722 Witness Drayton: [SEBY][ASSEMBLY.) tto considero~drS~e Releage, and to admit that he was doing wrong. man come to an unqualified acknowledg- I tell members it is not a question of ment of his guilt before the ends of justice, but it is a question of fact that he justice are fully' served ; but I would ask has been punished. He says: "I have those who would urge such a suggestion, been sufficiently punished. When T how would that be met suppose we were leave this place I will not harbour to have something in the nature of a any resentment for the fact that I long Parliament, and if when that time have been punished." He says that, came this man Dntyton emerged from although be considers the punishment prison just as fully convinced of the was not just. I tell members he is not uprightness and justificatiou of his action in any defiant mood. This man has as when he entered prison ? In such a really to look after his family; he has a case as that our efforts -would he entirely young family waiting for him. Disagree- futile, if we wanted to bring that man to ments between members can easily be got a recognition of the unjustifiableness of over. There may be means whereby, the stand he has taken. I believe be without the dignity of the House being would emerge from that prison still interfered with, that man could leave this having the opinion that he was upholding week. I think it would be a cruel thing the dignity and rights of the Press, by to keep him there longer. In my opinion which he is earning his livelihood. I 30 days' imprisonment has quite wiped presume what is aimed at by the present out anything he has done. If it has not, motion is that we shall extend to this I would recommend the Government be man a ineed of mercy, and when we look asked to institute laws whereby such a abroad in the world we find that is thing as this cannot occur again. I, exercised in many States and in various and I am sure other members, would quarters. It is often exercised simply like to hear the member for Greenough when the person who for the time on this question, because I know being is liable to punishment expresses how feelingly and how forcibiy he some degree of contrition. It is also can speak upon it, for I have just exercised on a bii-thday, burial day. had the pleasure of reading the speech or some other remarkable day in con- he made from this (seat on the Govern- nection with prominent figures in society. ment benches) position in the old The quality of mercy -or rather the House. I think it was from this very exercise of mercy is extended on such seat. I would like to bear him express occasions. It is farther extended when his opinion upon it, and then if he those who exercise authority are fully has not changed from the time I have satisfied that the ends of justice are com- referred to he would be a very powerful pletely met. I think in this instance we pleader indeed in support of the conten- can rely upon it that there is justifica- tion that this man having been kept there tion for coming to the conclusion that for the length of time he has, that is this man should be released, that is to quite sufficient punishment, and that say, that the ends of justice and the some means should he found whereby he authority of this Parliament have been can be allowed to go home to his family fully vindicated; and it is only on that again. ground I am in favour of supporting this MR, P. J. LYNCH (Leonora): I am motion. I think that if members were in thorough sympathy with the motion to cast their minds to certain things now before the House, because I believe which have been written in defence of that the resolution passed by tbe House the stand this man has taken, they might some time ago would, if rigidly adhered be slow to come to this motion, were they to, mean the imprisonment of this man not of a broad disposition ; but I believe over Christmas time. I am sure that, that notwithstanding soi&e violent things notwithistaniding our desire to maintain said about men being returned to this the authority of the House to its fullest Chamber to do their duty to this State, extent, it is not the intention of the they are above such petty considera- Rouse to inflict any uinnecessary tion and can approach this subject hardship on this man. It has been in a calm and dispassionate way. mentioned in opposition to this pro- I believe that " the quality of mercy is posal that it is necessary to make this not strained." At this stage we recog- Witness Drayton ; [8 DECEMBER, 1904.] Witnssto conseiderrqtn~ STECEIBE, Release.104j 1723

nise that the authority of Parliament, nected with newspapers would have acted the supreme power in this self-governing similarly. It is one of the sacred laws community, is fully vindicated ; and I of journalismn that information given to hope the conference will find a way out journals by an anonymous contributor of the difficulty, and that the power shall not be disclosed. The editor pub- exercised to imprison this juan will be lishes it, and takes the full responsibility exercised to release himi. I have pleasure for its publication. But Drayton did in supporting the motion, not because I uothing- of the kind. Be was asked to fear any after-action that may be taken, go before the select committee. He did but simply because this Parliament, now not know what questions were to be asked; that it considers its authority fully vindi- and without ascertaining whether the cated, should set at liberty the man by questions were proper or improper, he whom that authority has been defied. committed aserious contempt of Parlia- 31R. W. J. BUTCHER (Gascoyne): ment by refusing to attend. However, It is quite unnecessary to speak at length he has been punished; be has been in on this subject. I reiterate with great plea- gaol, I understand, for about a month; sure the words of the mover in his open- and though there can be no question that ing speech, with which I am thoroughly in he should express regret, still in the accord. I sincerely hope that the House circumistances Parliament will be acting will unanimously pass this motion, which neither wisely nor magnanimously if it simply asks three members of the House insists on an apology. We have very to consider this question in conference. clearly shown what may be expected by We are not passing a motion to liberate people who refuse to give evidence before this unfortunate man Drayton. He has a select committee. We have shown also committed an offencee against the dignity that there would be no object in appoint- of Parliament, for which offence we sent ing select committees to ascertain the him to prison; he has been in prison for facts of certain cases if anyone were at a month, and that imprisonment should liberty to flout the Committees, and to surely be a sufficient punishment. He refuse to give information which they was, we may say, unable to pay the fine were perfectly justified in seeking. I inflicted ; consequently he had to go to have much pleasure in supporting the gaol. Now, having been imprisoned, do other members who have suggested that we look to him to pay the fineF I say, the time has now arrived for allowing certainly not. We have punished him this man to go free. sufficintly ; and I am certain that the MR. W. NELSON (Hannans): Pos- dignity of Parliament is fully vindicated sibly no member of this House has better without keeping him longer in gaol. reason than I for cultivating a personal MR. J. L. HANSON (Greenough): At dislike of the subject of discussion ; but this stage I think we may well allow Mr. as a fact I feel absolutely no personal Drayton to leave gaol. I do not regard vindictiveness. [LABOUR MamaER Do him as an unfortunate man or as a not mention it] It is only natural that martyr, but as a very foolish person. the gentleman who interrupts should be There is no doubt he took a wrong course amnazed to find in others a quality which when he refused to go before the select he does not possess. I have no reason to committee; and his action is not one in have any personal regard for the person which the liberties of the Press are in the in question. My own opinion was from slightest degree concerned. I take it that the beginning that the select committee Drayton, when asked to go before the should not have asked for his evidence. committee, should have gone. Then, had [LABOUR MEM9BER: What nonsense!t] he been asked questions, say as to the My opinion may have been wrong; but it identity of persons who supplied infor- was my opinion, and I expressed it. I mation to his paper, he should have consider that his evidence could not but be refused to disclose the names of those the same kind of evidence already secured persons. If the committee had then com- by that committee. mitted him for contempt, I know that in MRs. HoRAN: That in itself would have this House and out of it I should have been evidence. done everything in my power on his 31B. NELSON: A mere repetition of behalf, and I think anyone else con- evidence already taken. 1724 Witnes Drayton: [ASSEAIBL-k.][SEBY] tot coniriderosdrRlae Beleaee.

Itnaout MEsmBER How do you know ? nature of the motion. I am sure that MR. NELSON: The committee' ex Ithe gentlemen named in it do not mis- amined all the leading parties to the case; Iunderstand it. I should have made a secured all the first-band evideuce; and direct motion in a few and simple Words, I was of opinion that Mr. Drayton, if "That the honour of this Parliament has examined, could tell us nothing new, and been vindicated, and that John Drayton would merely try to make political be now released;" but Mr. Speaker capital out of the matter; and 'fy would not have been able, according to prediction proved absolutely true. his reading, of the rules, to receive such a Mu. flORA N: Why were you not there? motion. I have therefore mn ved "1That MR. NELSUN:- I could not be there the authority of Parliament in the matter all1 the time. The meetings of the com- of John Drayton has been fully vindi- mittee were too prolonged. It was some- cated." We have authority to compel times a great weariness of the flesh to witnesses to answer questions put by attend those meetings. Mr. Drayton select committees. The committee has undoubtedly did wrong-; and when he did reported; and it has been shown to the that wrong it was right to punish him. committee and the country that Parlia- But taking all the facts into considera.- meat must have the questions put by tion, he has been adequately punished. committees answered. If another witness, when a similar case was before the House. after being sworn, declines to answer When the relations between the Morning questions, we shall then deal with Herald and the House were under dis- that phase of the question. It will cussion, 1 pointed out to the member remain to be seen whether an editor for Greenough (Mr. Nan son) that the or ankyone else has a right to refuse House was compelled, by the very nature to supply any information required of its Standing Orders, made not by by a select committee. That phase us but before we were here, to do of the question I decline to con- certain things which in all probability sider now. I do not wish to limit we should not have done voluntarily. the powers of Parliament. But Drayton And I believe that ,the punishment meted has been imprisoned. He is unable to out to Mr. Drayton was not the punish- ytay the flue. What does the fine matter ment. we should have meted out had to this House? What does matter to this it been in our power to decide the House is its authority over the residents form which the punishment should take; of this State. That king so, I have that we, in other words, had to follow asked the House to pass what is as nearly somewhat strictly old rules of which we as possible a direct motion that did not altogether approve. According Drayton be liberated. The leader of the to the rules which guided the House, Opposition knows that this motion if Mr. Drayton mny remain in prison for passed means that Drayton shall be the next six months. I think that released. The Premier is now absent; punishment would be atogether dispro- but by the motion we ask the hon. the prtionate to the offence; and I am Speaker and the leaders of the House to thereore earnestly of opinion that not tell us 'what is the best way to go to only for the sake of Drayton but for the work. I have no scruples. I disagree sake of the House we must and should with Mr. Speaker's interpretation of his be merciful. It is not only our duty to powers in this matter. This House must be just and merciful; it is also our duty be supreme. Surely the House has a that we should not even appear to be right to instruct its Sergeant-at-Arms to otherwise, As I think the punishment let Drayton go. If you wish to say you meted out to Drayton is adequate, I will have not those powers, you may shelter support the motion. yourself behind that fine plea. MR. A. E. THOMAS (Dundas);. I Ma. SPEAKER: Is the hon. member desire to support the motion. addressing that remark to me? Mu. MORAN (in reply as mover): * MR. MO RAN: Every remark is ad- I think the consensus of opinion in this d-ressed to you, M1r. Speaker. House, except in one or two quarters, is *Mna. S1PEAKER: Is the hon. member that Drayton should be released. I1do addressing the remark to myself per- not want any misunderstanding as to the seially ? Witness Drayton. [8 DimpmBrR, 1904.] Witnssstimates.ragn. 8DERM ~n,190.] 1725

Mnt. MORAN: I was not even think. of the House and Mr. Speaker upon the ing of you, sir, except in the absolutely full and generous interpretation they have impersonal capacity in which you preside. *given to the evident wish of the Rouse in I hope your susceptibilities are not too *connection with this matter ; also to tender on that question. All statements express a hope that the incident will be ia this House are directed to the Chair; forgotten, and that we shall never again and no matter for whom they may be have occaion in the history of Western meant they must be directed to the IAustralia to go through the same pro- Chair, otherwise the member speaking Iceeding. would be outside the Standing Orders. Question put and passed. Therefore, to make the bon. the Speaker [Drayton released accordingly, on the easy on this point, I may say that I am next day.] replying to the Premier's remarks about the indefiniteness of my motion. If any- ANNUAL ESTIMATES, 1904-5. body wished to say the motion was not IN COMMITTEE Or SUPPLY. definite enough, they might refuse to act I Resumed from the previous day; MR. immediately. What I expect, as mover I BATEz in the Chair. of the motion, is that if these gentlemen agree, Drayton shall be released not later MINES DEPARTMENT (HoN. R. HAsTIE, than to-morrow ; and this House has given Minister). them the power, for the motion is only couched in its present form in deference Generally, £31,436 (partly discussed): to Mr. Speaker. I aippreciate to the full [Discussion resumed on Mines Esti- the magnanimity of the member for mates generally.] Yilgarn (Mr. Reran) in his support of Mn. RASON:, In the discussion of the this motion. I specially appreciate sup- Mines Estimates, he had hoped to have port from that quarter for this motion the advantage of the prepence of the which I hope will be carried unani- member for Menzies (Mr. Gregory), the Mousl1y. late Minister for Mines; but owing to Question put and passed. the temporary s~bsence of the hon. mem- ber, the duty of criticising these estimates [At a later stage of the sitting:] in a friendly spirit devolved upon himn COMMITTEE'S RECOMMIENDATION- (Mr. Rason). The Mi~inister was to be PARDON. congratulated on his satisfactory state- Mu. SPEAKER announced that the ment of the progress of the mining committee appointed by the House to industry, and on the satisfactory manner consider the case of the witness Drayton in which he had introduced the estimates now recommend that he be granted a free for the department. Two statements pardon. appearing in the last report of the TanE PRE-MIER: In pursuance of the Mines Department in a few sentences report just made, I beg to submit the showed the very satisfactory position in following motion for the consideration of which the mining industry stood. The the House:- report said: That the report be adopted, and that in The amount of ore raised per man employed accordance therewith Johnt Drayton, now in during 1903 exceeds that for 1902 by 18-71 the custody of the tSergeant-at-Arms by order tons, and the ounces of gold produced per man of this House, be granted a free pardon, and employed above and below ground are increased that 31r. Speaker do take action accordingly. by 16-23 ounces per man. The average value of the gold for the year being X3 12s. per I do not intend saying anything in sub- ounce, over C479 worth of gold was produced mitting this proposal to the House, as for every man employed above and below the subject has already been discussed. round, as against 1427 for the previous year. I beg formally to move the motion I have This spoke volumnes for the satisfactory read. condition of the industry. The next Mw. H. GREGORY (in the absence of table in the Mines Department report the lender of the Opposition) : I second showed that Western Australia produced the motion. I47-84 per cent, of the total output of Mn- C. J. MORAN (West Perth): I Australasia; so that it only required an wish simply to congratulate the leaders increase of 2-l6 per cent. on- the value of 1726 Estimates: [SEBY][ASSEMBLY.] Xine-qMnsgnrly yeneraUy. the present output of gold from this State pose. It had been absolutely necessary to equal the total value of the gold out- to erect a smelter at Phillips River. The put of the Eastern States and New past G-overnmeut had not been anxious Zealand. Everything pointed to that in- to go in for the smelter themselves, and crease being effected. this year, which had offered a bonus of £1,000 to anyone every member would he glad to realise. who would erect a, smelter there, that We found that there was an increase of offer being su bsequently increa sed without £289,551 on the estimates of the Mius result to £1,500. At last it had become Department as against the estimates of necessary for the State to take the work last year. This was, a. very serious in- in band; but he (Mr. Rason) could not crease considering that the dcpartmneut understand why it was necessary to pro- had for years past recei-ved very liberal vide so large a suam for the purchase Of treatment. It was apparent the admin- ore. The time was come whea the word istrative cost of the department was "ladvances" should be substituted for becoming too great. The cost of admin- "cpurchase." Now that the smelter was istration in this department in 1900-1 erected, this money was only required for was £59,695; in 1901.2 it was £55,238; making advances against ore brought to iu 1902-3 it was £250,834; in 1903-4 it the smelter. When speaking generally was £49,224; and this year it was £61,516, 1upon the Estimates he bad pointed out an increase of £1,892 on the previous that it was wrong to load the Estimates year. There did not appear to be this of revenue and expenditure by inserting year any increases in salaries of officers items such as these, receiving under £2200. Last year out of MR. THOMAS: It had always been 18 officers employed receiving under £100 doe, It was bad. per annum 12 received increases; and out don RASON: These estimates showed of 33 receiving over £100 and under £200, anTexpenditure of £ 74,650, and a revenue 24 officers received increases; while out of oflmot acorresponding amount. It 16 officers receiving over £200 and under wsunduly swelling the revenue and £800, only seven received increases. This expenditure. The position, to his mind, showed that the junior ojlcers were con- was that already the Government had an siclered. and given advances rather than asset of £12,000 worth of copper. If those receiving large salaries, the average another £25,000 was made available for advance to officers receiving under £4100 the Mines Department to advance against being £18 15s., that to officers receiving copper brought to the smelters, that over £100 being £14 3s. 4d., and that to ought to be sufficient. We should treat officers receiving over £200 being £12 3s. this as a trading concern. Would any The vote for State batteries showed an member say it would be impossible to increase over last year's estimate, but run a smelter satisfactorily with an avail- not an increase on the amount actually i able capital of £37,000? Any mian of expended. It was the policy of the business could do it, and would be glad member for Menzies, while Minister for indeed of the opportunity. Mines, to encourage thM- working of State MR. THoMAs: One would like the batteries as far as possible. There was chance. no work more calculated to benefit the MRs. RASON- No doubt the hon. mining industry aud the prospector and member would. The Minister for Mines the poor miner than the erection of State was under the impression that such a batteries wherever they could be jtistified. *course as had bkeen suggested was not Unquestionably the batteries had done possible, asFthe Audit Act would prevent good work, having produced £1,021,718 it. That was not the case. The Audit, worth of gold. The cost of cyaniding and Act of last year was passed with the idea crushing had been considerably reduced *that there should be suspense accounts. last year, and the Minister for Mines Section 55 of the Audit Act provided should see his way clear, if possible, to that- make still farther reductions. The great increase in the Mines Estimates uni- The Governor may direct that any sum doubtedly was due to the provision for voted by Parliament in connection with any undertakring or matter shall be carried to the the purchase of ore at Phillips River, an Credit Of a suspense account, into and from item of £75,000 appearing for that par- which moneys receivable and payable in con- Edinzates - [8 DEcFMBER, 1904.] Esiiz aesines8DC generally.EBER 194j 1727 nection with such undertaking or matter shall MR. THOMAS: We 'would get the be paid and withdrawn. money. If, therefore, Parliament would vote for AIR. IIASON:- When the items were the 'Minister for Mines, for advances reached he would miove that consider- against copper, £25,000, with that sum it able reductions be made. The next wud be possible to open a suspense matter he wished to draw attention to account; and into that suspense account was the Cue-Day Dawn water supply. pay the sum of £212,000 already available, The Estimates showed an expenditure or which should be available directly for of £17,060. There again the estimates the copper previously bought: that would of expenditure had been increased in a give a trading capital of some £40,000. way that could easily have been avoided. TRE MINISTER FOR MINES : If the The Minister last night referred to the financial year began just now, that could Water Boards Act that he (Mr. Mason) be done. introduced last year, and pointed out MR. THaoMAS: The smelter only started that that Act made it possible for works work about a. week ago. such as the Cue-Day Dawn water supply MR. RASON: Could the Minister in- and similar works to be undertaken. form members what a~dvances bad been That was quite true, but that Act pro- made against copper since the swelter vided also that municipalities or local started, or whilst the smelter had been authorities for whom works of that kind getting ready to start. were undertaken should give debentures Ma. THoMAS : It had been getting for the value of the work done, and could ready for the last two years. give debentures as the work proceeded. MR. RASON: The amount up to a. That was the course intended to be taken recent period had been included in the in this case. The Minister bad said " if £12,000 advanced. If there had been we could borrow the woney." The considerable advances, it would be a, Act provided that the Treasurer could question of only a short time when the advance the value of these debentures profits of the copper so bought would be front the Savings Bank funds. It would made available. be easily possible, therefore, for the TaE MINISTER FOR MINES: How long, municipalities of Cue anKr Day Dawn to a few monthsP issue debentures for the w ork as it MR. RASQJA: Say three months; at proceeded, and for the debentures to be any rate, before the end of the financial passed into the Treasury accounts, and year there would be profits from this thus avoid showing on the Estimates copper. It was idle to say that with an expenditure of £17,060. It seemed £37,000 or £240,000 capital, one could to him in many respects in the Mines not satisfactorily run a smelter at Phillips Department no care had been taken or River; and being of that opinion, when no attempt made to avoid unduly Swelling we reached the items on the Estimates the Estimates, bout rather that there had he intended to move that the items be been an idea. of showing as large considerably reduced. He would not take an expenditure as possible. Whether that course if he thought it would, in any that had been done with the idea of way, prejudice the operations at the giving the public an inflated idea of the Phillips River field; but he could not see operations of the Mines Department, he how that could possibly affect the ques- did not know. The Government should tion. It 'would do this:- if we could make treat trading concerns as trading con- a, reduction in these items and a few cerns, and not increase either the revenue more, we could avoid showing on the or the expenditure on the Estimates in Estimates a deficit, and be was very the way that had been done this year and anxious to avoid that, because with so in the past. He would have to call many new schemes coming forward he attention to several items as we passed recognised it would be impossible to through Committee, but he would offer borrow anything like the amount of no factious opiosition. He congratulated money necessary to carry out the various the 'Minister on the way in which he had works suggested, and be believed agreed introduced his Estimates. upon, if we were to face the money 'Sli. DIAMOND: The position of the market with an estimated deficit. accounts relating to the Phillips River 1728 Bstimat Os: fSEE][ASSEMBLY.] MinesMnsgnrly generalty.

copper smelter emphiasised the remarks a statement showing how many tons of made by him in the House from time ore were in hand, and how many tons to time as to keeping all trading were expected to be purchased, and what accounts separate from the ordinary the average yield from the ore would be, Estimates of Revenue and Expen- that would be reasonable. It was a very ,diture. That could not be too clearly simple thing to buy a large quantity of laid before members, or be too often copper ore at a distant field averaging up brought under notice. It was almost to a certain amount per ton of copper un possible to understand the accounts as and a yield of silver and gold. He had before members, he was not been told that there was a reasonable planedblaming the present or any past Govern- amount of silver and gold in the ore, so ment. We had an arbitrary amount as much so that he was led to believe it expected revenue, but there was nothing would pay for the c:ost of smelting, the to show how that amount had to be freight, cartage. and realisation. But we -secured or where it was to be derived ought to have these matters laid before from. We were virtually told that a me~mbers in detail. It could not be done certain industry yielded so much, and we under the existing system. He believed were told the revenue expected to meet this would be a profitable transaction, the expenditure, or the expenditure to but like all business transactions, it meet the revenue would amount to so would never become profitable if it was much. The expenditure was detailed in laid before the House in the manner a clearer manner than the revenue was. which bad always obtained in the past. It would be far better if the House made it clear that in future members intended At 6-30, the CHAIRMAN left the Chair. to have all trading accounts placed before At 7-30, Chair resumed. the House in the same manner as an accountant would place the business of a Ma. DIAMOND) (continuing): Speak- private firm before his principals. The ing farther on the Phillips River sale of ore should Dot be treated as copper smelters as a business propo- revenue,; it was not revenue. It was an sition, he would impress on members, expected result from the sale of certain especially on the Government. the neces- products purchased by the Government sity' for instituting an entirely different for the public good and for the benefit of system of keeping accounts, namely, a the industry. He bad full sympathy system showing cost, outlay, profit and with the idea of purchasing those ores, be- loss for evenv commercial undertaking cause it appeared to him, in this particular the Government had in hand. He under- instance at any rate, that the amount of stood that in thc Treasury the rules were private capital was not forthcoming to such that a department could not get its develop the field. In future it should accounts kept under the same system as be clearly understood that we would ex- they would be kept in a commercial pect the Government of the day to lay undertaking. He believed the Treasury before members a clear business-like had a certain system which must be statement of the revenue and expenditure adhered to. He understood that the in connection with tradin concerns. Treasury system of bookkeeping pre- MR. THOMAS: That wats asked for last vented the officers from debiting these session, but the party to which the hon. particular amounts and charges as they member belonged refused it. should be debited. For instance, the MR. DIA-MOND: Nothing could be Gwalia Hotel and the particular proposi- mentioned in the House without some tion under notice should be debited with member referring to party. This was interest on the outlay of capital, also not a matter of blame to the present with depreciation and all items which Government or to -any Government. We would come under the cognizance* of a were told that the Government would commercial bookkeeper. He could in derive £75,000 from this industry, but perhaps two hours show to a Treasury it was not said how it was expected that officer how these accounts could be kept the amount would be derived. We were without having an involved system of told to a&certain limit how the expenditure bookkeeping. Each account should be was expected to be incurred; but if we had debited with outlay and credited with 0

Estimates: [8 IWEmaiR, 1904.] Mines generally. 1729 income, It sbould be debited with say five per cent, on this sum of the cost of maintenance percentage, in- £75,000, there would be a loss to the terest on capital, and percentage for State of £3,750. This, as a business sinking fund, and various other charges concern, deserved the most careful con- which be understood as a rule were sideration. on the part of the Government, entirely omitted from accounts kept not only as to how ore was to be smelted in connection with Government under- under the most scientific and the takings of this kind. This particular cheapest principles, but what was to one had come under his notice during the become of it after it was realised, that last few days, and he saw veryv special was after a profit had been obtained. reason why the account should be treated There would be laud carriage, freightage, as he had endeavoured to show itshould be. wharfage, other freightage, and the Tt would redound much to the credit of charges of those gentlemen in London the present Treasurer if he would alter who conducted the operations relating to the existing system and institute a sys- produce from various parts of the world. AI tern of commercial bookkeeping for all We ought to have an officer in the Agent commercial undertakings, inicluding the General's office in London who would railways. The railway account should know what he was doing, and see that be kept separate, the aeccounts of the the State was getting the best value for Phillips River copper smelting should be the State's products. rroduce going from 'kept separate, the accounts of crushing Western Australia to the London market and cyaniding by public batteries should or any other great unarket virtually as also be separate. Sometimes he was the product of the State went to such puzzled when he looked at Government market with a good name; but unfortu- accounts. We had at an early stage of nately some of our Australian produce the proceedings an amount set down as had a bad name through the manipula- probable income, but there was nothing tion of agencies; for instance, Victorian to show how it would be obtained. The butter and Victorian lamb. He trusted income was set down at about £75,000, the Government of Western Australia and the expenditure at £74,650. leaving would take care that we never fell into a margin of £350, but it was prohable the hands of those sharks. It would he that the balance would he on the other better, instead of untilising a gang of side. In this particular respect revenue brokers, for the Government even to risk was not revenue in the same sense as a, little bit of loss at first, with a, surety revenue derived say from the taxation of of eventually getting more profit, by con- lanid-he did not think we bad taxation trolling the business from start to finish. of land here: he did not know why- Hle looked upon the mines of Western but it wats value for something bought by Australia as being to a very great extent the Government, which they sold, and on our future stand-by for many years, under which they realised a profi or loss. In careful management; and if the matter regard to these smelters, if ore was were dealt with in the way it deserved, smelted., and the proceeds consisted of these particular itemns with others would so much matte, containing so much lead to a profit and not to a loss. copper, so much silver, and so muuch gold. Mna. A. E. THOMAS: On the Mines the proposition was far from being near estimate generally he desired to make a its realisation. The product had to be few remarks, because he believed that in sold. It had to go from the coast to touching on various heads he might be Albany or Fremantle, whichever was the able to give the Minister hints that best port of shipment, then it had to be migbt be advantageous to him in the conveyed to"London, or wherever the best working of the department. A point had market was likely to be, and then. it had been touched on which he would have to be sold. If this valuable product was preferred UP deal with under the item; but treated in the same way as many Govern- since it had been alluded to by the leader ment matters, there would be a loss. If of the Opposition and the member for certain agents were allowed, as they were South Fremantle, he thought he had better in connection with another proposition, deal with it onthe genera] question. Here- to take a. little bit extra percentage which ferred to copper smelting at Phillips River. everybody did not know anything about, For the benefit of members, he would a

1730 Estimates; [ASSEMBLY.] Mines generally. give a brief histry of the movement for include in the public revenue the whole the erection of that smelter. Ever since of the income from that enterprise. he had represented the Dundas constit- Such income should be passed to a tueney, he, baring investigated the suspense account; and instead of the capabilities of the Phillips River district, Estimates including the whole of the was convinced that it deserved soe anticipated revenue and expenditure, encouragement, and tried to get Govern- there should be proper balance-sheets at ment assistance for a copper smelter. the end of the Estimates showing the After various interviews, the es-Minister profit or the loss on each trading concern. for Mines (Mr. Gregory) offered a bonus That would be infinitely better than the for the erection of a smelter. He (3Mr. present system. The leader of the Thomas) tried to get the smelter erected Opposition had shown by, the Audit Act on those terms, but failed. He then that such accounts could be opened and made in the House a motion affirming the passed by the auditors. By the present desirability of extending the State battery system we seemed to an outsider the system to the treating of the copper ores most heavily-taxed people on earth. -But at Ravensthorpe. For the erection of the most people who perused our Estimates smelter he gave all possible credit to the forgot that much of our revenue was ax-Minister, who listened to hisl repre- capital temporarily embarked in trading sentations, perused the papers, and in-. concerns. He disagreed with the state- duced his collesagues to assent to the ment in the Estimates that £75,000 was request, though be (Mr. Thomas) was required for a year's running of the then sitting in Opposition and doing his smelter. Possibly during the whole 12 utmost politically against the James months there might be such a total out- Government. The smelter was erected; going for the purchase of ore and for and he hoped the present Minister (Hon. advances against ore brought to the Rt. Hastie) would be able to confirm the smelter. But every business man knew following statement. The position at there were returns from the treatmient of Phillips River was not too satisfactory. the ore. Copper was being produced and To get to the bottom of the matter lie sent home for sale. Now that the smelter (Mr. Thomas) had consulted the ex- wan in full blast, £10,000 would be ample Minister and bad many interviews with working capital. We had an income of the present Minister, with the result that £75,000 and an expenditure of £74,000 Mr. Kiug was recently sent to the distriet odd. As in a private business, all we to makre a full investigation. To assist needed was sufficient working capital. A the inquiry he (Mr. Thomas) carefully man who had a turnover of £100,000 avoided allowing anyone in the district did not need a capital of that amount. to know the full reasons for the presence On the coutrary, £10,000 should suffice of the expert. Having been in a sense to run such a business. responsible for the erection of the smelter. MR. RAsoq: Anyhow, £25,000 would he felt obliged to defend his action, and be ample. to show new mnembers that the enterprise MR&. THOMAS: These trading con- was justified. After the examinations corns should not appear in the Estimates made by several experts in addition to of Revenue and Expenditure. Mr. Kiug. there was no doubt of the Mn. GREGORY:- Last year. the cyanide wisdom of extending the public bat- treatment results were shown separately. tery system to the copper industry. W.R. THOMAS: Allocate a certain He agreed with the preceding speaker sum from revenue, as working capital for and the leAer of the Opposition that our trading concerns. As to State it was wrong to include in the Mines batteries, the Government might learn a. estimates £275,000 as revenue from this lesson from Phillips River. The State copper-smelting business. It was wrong batteries now crushed ore on a sliding to put on the Estimates the income we scale, so much per ton according to the expected to derive from our State grade, m'tking no stipulation as to where batteries. But the same observation the ore came from. It was found at would apply to our railways. When Phillips River that prospectors were the Government embarked on any com- stopeing the richest ore; and the ex- mercial enterprise, it was wrong to Minister made a regulation that no ore Estimtes: [8 DUEMBER, 1904.1 Estmats:Mines8DCEMFR,190.] generally. 1731 should be purchased for the smelter agree that this had always been his (Mr. unless it hald been won from actual under- Thomas's) contention. ground developments in the mines. The MR. GREGoRY: The alteration was manager of the smelter was appointed an made by the last Government. inspector to enforce that regulation. So M R. THOMAS was making no charge, should it be with our public batteries. but was dealing, as he had always done Prospectors took up abandoned gold- wvith the Mines Estimates, purely from a mining claims, stoped out at little rich ore non-party point of view. He simply left by the former proprietors, took it to objected to the school of mines being the public battery, abandoned the work' done away with at Coolgardie. No doubt ings, and went elsewhere to repeat their the school was still there, not as a school performance. In the main, no serious of mines but as a technical school. There development work had been undertaken was a school of mines at Kalgoorlie, by prospectors who raised ore for treat- which was right; but we should have a ment at Government batteries. The branch school in each mining centre gouging out the eyes of the mines, in lieu where there was a sufficienlt number of of solid and legitimate development work, students to justify it, working in unison had resulted in ready-made cemeteries with the school of mines at Kalgoorlie. throughout the goldfields, owing to the The systemi should notbe tohaveaschoolof easy crushing terms granted to such mines at Kalgoorlie and technical schools prospectors by the State batteries. As elsewhere. He cared not who was re- at Phillips River, there ought to be a sponsible for the change; it was a retro- regulation that a certain proportion of grade movement to abolish the school of the ore crushed by the State battery must mines at Coolgardie. Having bad per- represent actual development. Such regu- sonal acquaintance with the State Mining lation might at first be considered harsh by Engineer and ail opportunity of watching prospectors; but they, like the Ravens- his work in Western Australia, being one thorpe copper-miners, would live to bless of those who opposed the appointment, that regulation and to recognise its justice. he now congratulated the late Minister He (Mr. Thomas) had time after time for Mines on the acquisition the mining said that he believed in the establishment industry had got through the securing of of schools of mines for the education of the services of Mr. Montgomery. The our growing youths in the technical salary (.2800) was not sufficient to subjects necessary to train them, not to prope-ly and adequately remunerate thiat work underground for R3 10s. a week, gentleman for the work he was doing. but to take the hi -gher positions in the MR. GREGoRY: It was according to profession. While he had been in Par- agreement. liament the COolgardie School of Mines MRt. THOMAS: Yes; but he was pre- was establish~d under the Mines Depart- pared to recognise work with anyone, ment, so that members knew we would and he thought the splendid work Mr. provide a proper mining education under Montgomery baod done in connection with the control of the Minister for Mines; the mining industry entitled himi to bigger but it was afterwards thought fit to consideration than was shown by the establish -a school of mines at Kalgoorlie, sum on the Estimates. We must also and it was done. Now it was seen from remember that, if we carried out the these Estimates that the Coolgardie recommendations of the Boulder Deep School of Mines no longer existed, and it Levels and Perseverance Commission, we was explained that, instead, there was a might at any time be called upon to give technical school at Coolgardie under the a final report in connection with a. mine control of the Education Department. or to have a Government sampling, and This was a matter upon which he felt presumably the man who would conduct strongly. Wherever there was a sufficient the work would be the State Mining number of students coming forward, Engineer, who was in receipt of a salary branch schools of mines should be estab- in some cases less than a quarter of lished under the control of the Minister the salary paid to other mining engi- for Mines and not under the control of neers in Western Australia. The Gov- the Education Department. The late ernment should take into consideration Minister for Mines (Mr. Gregory) would the splendid work Mr. Montgomery 1732 Estimates: [ASSEMBLY.] Mfines generally. had dlone, and should see that it was in excess of the number taken up 12 more adequately remunerated. He (Mr. months ago. Recognising the immense Thomas) thanked the member for Menzies area of our auriferous country, from for the work done in connection with the Phillips River in the South to Kim- Norseman and Princess Royal water berlev in the North, we must admit supply. The late Minister (Mr. Gregory) that it only required people and capital at his (Mr. Thomas's) invitation, after to very largely increase our great being informed regarding the district, industry, to the advantage not only visited it and, after due inquiries made of people with capital invested in by the State Mining Engineer as well as the industry, but of people engaged in by himself (Mr. Gregory), was satisfied commercial pursuits. He hoped every to announce that in all mining centres his effort would be made by Parliament in aim and object was to grant facilities for supporting the Minister; but it was water supply. Only.C2bO remained now to absolutely necessary, in order to advance complete theecheme, and he (Mr. Thomas) this great industry, to take every legiti- desired to give credit to whom credit was mate means to encourage prospecting. due. The present Minister for Mines During the last two or three years it should take his remarks generally in con- seemed that we had not had that number nection with mining in the same 'spirit in of prospectors out searching for new which they were offered, the spirit of finds there formerly was, and it appeared healthy criticism where necessary and that those who had gone out had been healthy advice given by one who had the disheartened through finding no market greatest possible interest in seeing that for their discoveries. He (Mr. Wilson) the mining industry in Western Aus- was not prepared to suggest any detailed tralia was made the most of, seeing that methods that might be adopted to put it was the mainstay of the State. He this matter right; but he hoped the hoped the Minister would recognise, Minister would put his department into though perhaps others might no[, that going order and would bring his un- his (Air. Thomas's) apparent silence to doubted knowledge on this problemn with people elsewhere regarding the recent a niew to solving it. We must get the steps taken at his requesr and with his prospector out through the hundreds of fsull concurrence in connection with the miles of gold-bearing country that bed Phillips River smelting works, was in not yet been scratched. A proper system the best interests of the smelting works of prospecting and proper inducements and in the best interests of the district offered to capital to be invested in the also. industry would bring its advancement. MR. FRANK WILSON: The member Tt was regrettable that the remarks of the for Menzies must be gratified at the member for Dundas with regard to the remarks of the member for Dundas. No prospectors were borne out: Prospectors greater trib~ute could be paid to the bon. were in the habit of taking the eyes out member's administrative ability than the of their shows and not developing them eulogistic remarks of the member for in the majority of eases, and sooner or Dundas regarding the work the member later they had to abandon their shows for Menzies had performed in the Mines because they could not carry on without Department. The hon. member's efforts a large expenditure of capital. If we during the term of his office were recog- could not agree to settle all the petty nised, not only by those directly in- jealousies between capital and labour, we terested in the mining pursuits of our could not look for a successful solution of country, but also by those who were in- the difficulty which was at present de- directly interested, inasmuch as their terring the advance of the gold-mining business callings brought tbem into close industry. He hoped the prophecy of the contact with the industry. Members four erstwhile Independent members re- must feel gratified at the optimistic garding a progressive policy in regard to remarks of the present Minister for the North-West would be fulfilled, or. Mines. One was pleased to listen to the that, at any rate, some proposal should Minister stating that the industry was on be brought forward to give to the people a fair road to increase, and that the who had been struggling in the Pilbarma number of leases taken up at present was district for so many years the ordinary Bstimates: [S DzcEmBEK, 1904.] Estiatesines[8DECEBER generally.190.] 173M facilities of transit enjoyed on the Eastern Iprovision made for maintenance in that Goldfields. He believed sufficient induce- profit and loss account. Glancing ment offered, and there was no reason through the figures, we had the bare why some proposal for railway communi- outgoing and the bare incoming, the cation should not be brought before the labour and material in each case. He House in the near future to connect the did not see any provision made for mineral districts of Pilbarra with the depreciation. It was not possible to coast. There were vastimineral resources make provision on Estimates of this undeveloped in that district. There was description, but if a proper system of gold and there was tin in lar~ge quantities. bookkeeping was adopted we would not MR. GREGORY: There were over 900 run ainy risks, but we should make pro- square miles of tin country. vision for all matters that bad to be MR. FRANK WILSON: Surely it was provided for such as a private firm would worthy of our attention. He bad advo- provide when entering into pursuits of cated ,year after year in the old Parlia- this description. We knew the Govern- ment a, policy of this description, but it ment were apt to overlook such items,' always seemed that the district was too tbey were apit to think " sufficient for the far away, that this portion of oar day is the evil thereof," and as long as country was to some extent looked on as the Government showed a revenue of £5 foreign. We had listened to reports from for every £5 put out in labour and time to time suggesting that certain material, they thought they bad made a things should be done, but nothing had good bargain; but that would not be been done. It was the fault of the considered sufficient in a commercial Government-not only of the last Gov- business. It was to be hoped the Minister ernment, but of every preceding Govern- would effect some alteration, so that the ment. Hews satisfied that not only would bomefriathenoueriprpe comercial our gold-mining industry be brought ceomterial enpre cod mercput to a successful issue on the Pilbarra light. He indorsed the remarks of the fields, but on the Kimberley fields it leader of the Opposition with regard to would be brought to a. profitable result the swelling of the deficit. It was rather for the State. He listened with interest unfortunate at the present time that we to the remarks of the leader of the should show a deficit at all. We were Opposition in regard to the smelter at about to embark on an extensive pro- Phillips River. There was good cause gressive policy, brought forward by the for complaint as to the methods adopted four erstwhile Independents, and adopted in keeping the accounts, not only with by the Government. The Premier said regard to works of this description, but he viewed with sympathy the require- he might also say in rega-d to public ments of our northern distnicts. He had batteries and all commercial institutions. promised the member for Dundas that he The amount of capital necessary to carry would refer the que'qtion of the Norsemnan on an industry or commercial pursuit railway to some board yet to be created. depended entirely on the nature of the The Premier also talked of putting out business embarked on and the methods spur lines anywhere along the Great of payment for the work done. It was a Southern railway in order, one supposed, very, poor business indeed that required to win to some extent the approbation a capital equal to the annual turnover. and support of agricultural members Most businesses were carried on with on the Opposition cross-benches. The one-fourth, one-sixth, or one-tenth of the Premier also said that a dry dock would turnover. If there was not power in the be constructed at Fremantle, and sewer- Audit Act to enable a proper system of age works would have to be commenced bookkeeping in connection with the almost immediately, according to the Government trading concerns to be Minister for Works. All these things carried out, then we ought to make the totted up ran into several millions of necessary amendment. We ought to money. When we had publicly stated have each year a profit and loss account through the Government of the day showing how the institutions had been that we were going to embark on this carried on. We ought to have proper progressive policy and build rail- commercial balance-sheets, and proper ways here, there, and everywhere- 1734 Estimtates : [ASSEMBLY.][SE B ]Mnsgnrly Mines generally. a few were wanted in the South-Western wining industry was going down. He districts as well as on the goldfields or could assure the agricultural members adjoining the Great Southern Railway- that it was a long way from going down. it would have been better if we could No doubt it would come to an end, but have shown by legitimate means a revenue he doubted whether the mining industry account at any rate that would have or the world would end first: he thought balanced our expenditure. The leader of the world. He would like agricultural the Opposition referred to an item of members to be in their places while the X17,000 for a water supply for Day Mines estimates were being discussed. Dawn, and pointed out that the late Gov- We were not here for the purpose of ernment had intended that this and other looking after one particular industry, hut municipal water supplies should be taken for the benefit of the whole State, and over by the municipalities and paid for by agricultural members should assist in debentures. That was a very good scheme discussing mining matters. We were in many ways. It would not only reduce prepared to hear agricultural members 'the deficit on the Estimates, but would and- give them assistance whenever pos- also place the responsibility directly on sible. The progress of the agricultural the shoulders of those who ought to bear industry depended on themining industry. it. These were his views, and he hoped Had not the mining industry built up the the Ministry would take the matters into agricultural industryP Where would consideration. We bad an immense the agricultural industry have been if it country in our charge to develop; we had not been for the stability of the gold- had a country which was undoubtedly fields ? People would not have flocked rich: there was nothing wrong with it. here. We wanted our produce to come The only thing that was wrong to his from as near home as possible. We wanted mind was that we had been timid in our agricultural produce cheap so as to reduce administration in the past. This applied the cost of the mining industry. The not only to the gold-mining industry, but question as to all trading concerns being to every industry in Western Australia. placed in Separate balance-sheets should It showed a lack of confidence in our- not be dealt with in this discus- selves. sion at the length it had been to-night. DR. ELLIS: The hon. member wished We had heard the same discussion on to make amends. nearly every vote. Now that members MR. FRANK WILSON: It was about had expressed their opinions about the time the Labour Government made some Phillips River field, we might go on with amends, showed more confidence in the these estimates from a mining standpoint. country, and pushed on the country to Every member had contended that that prosperity and progress which it although the estimates showed an in- deserved. crease. That increase was not to such MR. SOADDAN: Members on the extent as some thought might have been Government side must be deeply the case had it not been for the purchase disappointed that the hon. member of ore at the Phillips River and the Cue- did not conclude with a no-confidence flay Dawn water supply. These things motion. The hon. member had taken were not connected with the mining advantage of the Mines Department industry at all. Although the Cue-Day Estimates to Say very little about Dawn water supply was a necessity, it mining but a great deal about policy. should niot have been included in the It was unfortunate that on every Mines Department estimates. The work vote policy was discussed. When we should have been paid for out of loan were dealing with estimates of this money, and the people whom it benefited description we should deal with them should have had to pay for it. The outside of party altogether. The mining people of Cue and flay Dawn were pre- industry did not depend on Labour pared to pay for their water supply the polities, nor on the Opposition party same as the people on the Eastern Gold- being in power. The industry must go fields were prepared to pay for their forward: it could not stand still. We scheme. If the cost of the Eastern Gold- bad beard a good deal of talk while the fields water supply had been placed on agricultural shows were on, that the the Mines estimates in the past, those .Estimates; [8 DEcEmBER, 1904.] )iJtimtesMines [8I~cui~e,190.] generally. 1785 estimates would have been inflated, In regard to [be development of mining, and wre should have heard complaints there was a sum of £27,000 on these in reference to that matter. We estimates. That amount appeared on the estimates last year, but only X2,147 mighlt this year have provided for the Cue and Day*Dawn water supply out of was expended. We should as far as loan moneys instead of out of the annual possible develop the outlying districts. Estimates. Wit~h regard to the purchase We had many prospectors who had small of copper ore, the amount was large, hut shows, but found they could not continue when weconsidered that this wasarevenue- because they had not the capital in band. pro(Lucing item, it did not matter very The State should assist these men to much whether it appeared here or on earn on until they struck something some other item. It was certainly a favourable. We had a report from the trading concern, and he hoped in future State Mining Engineer, who said that, it would be kept separate from other under the Mining Development Act of trading concerns and other estimates. 1902, it was very difficult to discriminate There were one or two items he briefly between applications for assistance. wished to touch on, one being the pur- Under the Act assistance could only be chase of 5,000 copies of the West Aus- given in cases where it could be proved tralian Mining Indivstry. There were that the concern was going to turn out many ways in which money might better successfullyv; but it was very hard to say be expended to encourage minling pro- when leading money that a mine would bably than by sending out a lot of copies be successful. As that gentleman him- of this particular paper, simply because sell pointed out, it would not be neces- it was printed in the old country. The sary for prospectors and other owners of mining industry of Western Australia small shows to go to the Government for did not require a great deal of advertising, assistance if they were sure their under- for it was known all over the world as takings would be successful, for in that probably the richest gold-mining centre c(.se they would probably be able to in the whelp world. People knew the borrow on better terms privately. We resources of Western Australia so far as should take into consideration the ad- the gold-beai-ing qualities were concerned. visability of so amending the Act as to Another item was that touched on by the leave it to the discretion of the State member for Dundas, namely mining Mining Engineer what loans we could grant, schools. The hon. member complained exactly in the same way as was most bitterly because the Coolgardie done in regard to the Agricultural Bank. schools bad been closed and the one at Recently there had not been that amount Kalgoorlie extended. He (Mr. Scaddan) of development which we should have thought the time had arrived when the expected. We had miles and miles of school at Kalgoolie should be made a6 country yet to be opened up, and he hoped very up-to-date one. There was no the Governmnentwould take intoconsidera- reason why this school should not be in tion the advisability of assisting people advance even of those in the Eastern to hold their mines when once they had States, which were second to none in the opened them -up, so that they need not world. We had men in Australia who have to sell them to foreign companies. received their mining education in Aus- He could instance the Boorara, mines. tralia, and who would compare favourably, The owners complained bitterly that if not more than favourably, With men who although they bad spent thousands of had come from America. We had on the pounds out of their pockets, immediately Eastern Goldfields suchk men as Richard they began to get a return on their Hamilton, J. W. Sutherland, Roberts, money, they had the dividend tax imposed and Moss, who bad done more than all on them. He did not think it was the American bosses who were shipped intended to strike at locally-owned com- out here or likely to be. Was it neces- panies to that extent; and he thought we sary' to have at commission to inquire into might relieve them until they recouped scandals on mines managed by these themselves for the money they had spent. men ? He thought not. Our Australian People in the State did not assist the men would not be pulled about and led mining industry to the extent they ought, by the nose like Yankee bosses would. and we had to go to foreign countries 1736 Estimates; [ASSEMBLYASML]Mnsgnrly ] Mines generally. mostly British capitalists to carry on the THE MINISTER: The inspector paid industry. Prospectors went out with the visits to Kalgoorlie ? idea of finding a show, and floating it on MR. SCADDAX: The Minister said the London market. Local men of that every case arriving in Western Aus- capital should give more assistance to the tralia had three plugs taken from it; but inc1 ustry to keep these shows in the he had heard men who had been handling country. those explosives on shipboard state that MR. GREGORY: Capitalists were fright- nothing of the kind occurred. Those ened away by the Labour party. boxes were loaded on trucks and sent ME. SOADDAN: Possibly; but be directly to Kalgoorlie. was afraid it was those bosses they sent THE MINISTER: Would the hon. nm. out themselves who would be likely to beiethe names of those men ? frighten people away. If the mines were 'M.SOADDAN: No. He was not managed by Australians, there would be foolish enough to give the names. He more stability in our mining industries had received the statement, and he gave than at present. The member for Meozies it to the Minister for what it was worth. should be complimented on the manner There was a considerable amount of ex- in which he had advanced State battteries. plosives used in the mines to the detri- There were one or two difficulties with ment of the men's health. There were regard to them. We found that State bitter complaints continually about the batteries could not be built in places class of explosives used. He (Mr. where there were already public batteries. iSeadan) was not going to speak in Those batteries should not be a bar to the favour of one brand against another, building of State batteries. There were but only the best explosives ought to cases where people wished to crush a low- be allowed to be used in our mines. He grade ore, but could not do so because hoped the Minister would see into the the charges for crushing were so high, matter and provide that in the future and then the Government came along and explosives should be examined before said they would subsidise those batteries they left the coast. So as to reduce the cost. We were there MR. LYNCH: As to what had been spending money', with no possible chance urged on both sides of the House in the. of income. It was desirable to crush at matter of keeping separate accounts, and a decent price, and at the same time assist our crushing business being treated in producing revenue in the industry. absolutely as a trading concern, he did Another matter was with regard to ex- not think there was very much advantage, plosives. Last night he interjected that except for the purpose of bookkeeping. the Minister for Mines would do a&certain In his opinion it would be almost im- amount of good if, while removing some possible to work out with mathematical magazines, he removed also a considerable accuracy what was the effect of those amount of the explosives themselves. trading concerns such as the Phillips The hon. gentleman stated that the Com- River undertaking and the public battery mission which had been sitting at Kal- system. One of the best credentials that goorlie could not find any bad explosives. could be found with regard to crushing That statement seemed incorrect, because facilities, etc., was that the system, both during the sitting of the Coummission in on the goldfields and in the Phillips Kalgoorlie an explosion occurred. The River district, was run at a loss. If we Minister for Mines was asked some ques- remembered the great advantage this tions in regard to that, and certain papers industry had brought to the State and were laid on the table of the Rouse which the benefit it offered in the matter of disclosed the fact the chief inspector of private employment and in renewing the explosives had found, on visiting Kal- vigour of every industry in the State, no goorlie, no less than nine cases which he member in the Chamber would, he condemned and destroyed. What would thought, begrudge the extra expenditure have been the result had the chief in- of some eight or nine thousand pounds Spector not visited KalgoorlieP Would above the stum expended last year. If those nine cases have walked out and the Estimates were clearly analysed, it condemned themselves, or would they would, he thought, be seen that this have been used in the mines ? -additional outlay was in respect to the Pstimates: [8 bFcryBER, 1904.] Rstiatesines [8 ECERER,1904]gen erally.' 1737

/Phillips River and the supply of water MR. H. GREGORY regretted bis at Day Dawn./, In regard to the supply absence from the Rouse during the of water at Day Dawn, he would not earlier portion of the discussion. 'hen be a party to saddling this vote with dealing with ming, we should as far as the cost of installing the water service possible sink all party feeling, knowing there if the people on the Eastern Gold- how much depended upon the expansi.on fields were to escape soot free from of this great industry, to which all our payment on capital for their service. other industries were subservient. He That would be altogether unfair. While regretted the increased cost of adnminis- £89,000 was a very respectable increase tration this year. For the preceding in expendituire, the objection of the leader three years there had been a continual of the Oppostion to this increase was reduction. The member for Sussex regrettable. 4Vigorously to encourage spoke of the need for developing the in- fgoldniining was only to carry out the dustry by assisting our own people, both Ipolicy of thle Forrest Ministry and of the prospectors and leaseholders. We must capable ex-Minister for Ifines (Mr. remember that we had not only gold, but Gregory). "This industry would galvanise copper, coal, tin, and many other minerals life into other industries of the State. well worth developing, though the gold But for goidmining we should not hear industry was the greatest. Our efforts the ring of the woodman's axe, nor should be redoubled. He disagreed with would the wilderness be peopled with the -remarks of the member for Sussex agriculturists, nor would our cattle regarding the Pilbarra district. Only industry and our coastal industries within the last few years was anything be farther stimulated. The expen- done there. During this and last year diture on the inspection of mines was the Government Geologist had inspected £8,200, the same as last year's. In view the district so that we might have an of the expansion of the industry, the expert report on its potentialities. The great depili some of our mines were now late Government provided Pilbarra with attaining, the difficulty of inspection, the a State batter y; and the district was new properties being opened up at such peppered with wells from one end to the places as Black Range, and between other. Speaking of goldmining generally, Burtville and Erlstoun, on which proper- the results of the work done in the past ties inspection was daily becoming more were not wholly satisfactory. The Minis- necessary', a larger expenditure was now ter spoke of the large number of new desirable; and this was recognised by leases taken up; but the number of gold- the appointment of a new inspector for producing leases in 1902 was 1,101, while the Kalgoorlie district. in 1903 we had only 1,105, or an increase of four. That increase was not what we 31R. GREGORY: Where he was needed. might have expected after the assistance MR. LYNCH: The Mines Development given to prospectors by our State batteries. expenditure should include a provision These had produced over £1,000,000 for assistance to drain some lines of reef. worth of gold up to date; gold which A pumping plant would make payable but for that assistance would probably be rmany properties which, though valuable, lying dormant to-day. At Mulline, apart were on the point of abandon ment owing from the cyanide plant, the State battery to difficulty with water. The vote for had produced over £180,000 worth of mining schiools was increased, and we gold. There the whole of the workings were rivalling that pnshful country, were owned locally. At Lennonville the America, which, notwithstanding all said State battery produced some £98,000 to the contrary, was still sending to our worth, nearly all belonging to prospectors. shores some of the ablest men who could At Darl6t there were no companies but be put in cbarge of mining operations. prospectors only, and the State battery A substantial increase in the vote should produced £71,000 worth. At Mt. Ida- encourage our youths, if they had suf- a small district far north of Menzies and ficient grit and application, to compete 70 miles from civilisation-the State with men who travelled thousands of battery produced some X67,000 worth of miles to take places which should be gold; and in some four or five other occupied by Australians. places the batteries produced some 1738 Estimates: [ASSEMBLY.]ASML. Minesinsgnrly generally,

£50,000 worth. One would have thought to its assistance. They should cultivate that with all this gold raised by State a better spirit ; but 'the Government crushing we should be able to point with should on the other hand let them pride to many gold-mineg opened tip by understand that they would get a fair prospectors thus assisted. But in few deal for their money. It was no use cases could we point to any. The Golden mincing matters. Thiere was too much Cone, Davyhurst, was largely assisted by robbery in the past; too many bogus State battery crushings, but the proprie- propositions unloaded on the public, tary inclutded a large number of wealthy swindle after swindle. Whether by leaseholders. The Lady Gladys at State reports on mines or by the estab- Mulline was doing good development work lishiment of a State stock exchange, wve wholly through the assistance of the must try to devise some system for State battery. Btit these instances were safeguarding investors in our mines. too few ; and something must be done by He had always held that we must en- the State to promote development work. courage capital and let capitalists know There were too many instances, as the that they would have a fair deal, but member for Dundas pointed out, of that in order to have permanent pros- prospectors scooping out a little earth, perkty we should see that some of the bringing it to the battery, collecting the dividends were paid amongst our own proceeds, and clearing off to another people. We could also assist mining in district. But a special regulation would the administration of the public batteries. be unworkable. It would be impossible Though be had had time as Minister to for the battery manager to inspect the bring the public battery system to a whole field to ascertain whether the stone state of perfection, he thought more could was raised from development workings be done. When he first took charge of or from stopes ; nor should stoping be the Mines Department, we were suffer- prevented after development work was ing a loss on the public batteries; but carried out. When small parties got by a reduction of 20 per cent, in the down from 160 to 250 feet, it was im- charges for treating ore and sands, a small possible for them to effect the development profit was arrived at sufficient to cover necessary to makeagold-mine. Sometimes repairs to plant. Batteries were now they ran into sulphide lodes; at other doing well, hut they should be doing times they were met by water and could better. The charge of 10s. for treating not buy pumping machinery'v hence they sands was too high. In April last he had were unable to carry on development. recommended Cabinet to reducethe charge which would reflect cdit on the State to 8s. per ton, but Mr. James had thought battery system and would benefit them- it inadvisable to make a public announce- selves. Some time ago he asked if it ment of such a reduction on the eve of would not be well to have a State stock the general elections, and the minute had exchange to report on mines, and to been withdrawn. The present Minister induce onr own people to invest in should give this suggestion serious con- mining. Metropolitan and farming people sideration; but no reduction could be must recognise that the whole of our made unless economies were effected. prosperity was due to maining; that it Batteries should be made to pay their was now impossible to get foreign capital +way, but not to pay interest or sinking here for investment in mines; and that fund ; because the State should give the we should try some method of inducing industry a subsidy by the erection of the our own people to seek such investments. batteries, after which we had a right to In the early days of goldraining the expect the batteries to pay their upkeep. West Australian was only too eager to The Audit Depaxrment had made reports invest. Probably he had been bitten too in this connection, but he (Mr. Gregory) often, and was now somewhat shy. Not had always held that the State battery so in Victoria, where the greater part of system was a mutter of policy directed by the mining industry was conducted by the Government as guided by Parliament. Victorians, always willing to invest mn We should therefore assure the Minister any decent show. Here, apparently, that, as long as he made the public bat- mining had such a bad name that our teries pay expenses, it was all Parliament own people could not be induced to come waintedimrto do. We should have a pro- Estimates: [8 DEaEMBER, 1904.] Rsimats:Mines8DCEMER,190.] generally. 1739 per system of advisory boards where pub- Phillips River, he could not see why we lic batteries existed. There were amongst should have this large item of £970,000 the managers of Public batteries some on the Estimates. It had not been his fine men who worked 16 or 18 hours a intention to have such a large item day in trying to give the best returns to appearing. It was a bad principle. If the people of the various districts ; but all the gold won by the State batteries some men got the idea that, as soon as had been put through the Treasury, we they became associated with the Govern- could. easily swell our revenue returnos. ment, they were not supposed to work At present all that appeared on the the economies they would have to work Estimates was, the cost of wages and if their batteries were private concerns. maintenance and. the amounts received If these batteries were privately owned, from the treatment of the ores. The reduction in cha-rges could be made; and Audit Department had at one time com- in connection with eath batteny there pelled the Mfines Department to pay into should be a committee of local people the Treasury gold won by cyaniding; but who should supervise all accounts. This he (Mr. Gregory) had been able to make would allay to a great extent the feeling arrangements with the Audit Depart- of irritation in various districts. These ment so that the only amount paid to advisory boards had been tried in one or the Treasury was the payment for treat- two districts without success. The sug- ment. Why that Iprinciple was not gestion was not put forward in a fractious adopted in regard to the smelter he could spirit, but merely to emphasise what he not understand. We were not going to (-Mr. Gregory) thought could be done. buy copper. No copper had as yet been He had the system at hcart, and had bought, and the Minister surely dlid not spent more time, labour, and energy, in intend to buy any. So far the only regard to it than any other member; and money paid had been for advances on ore he had thought for a long time over this brought to the department. It was system of advisory boards. If we could thought that under the Audit Act the get the assistance of leaseholders in the G overnment would be able to have trading way suggested, we could make a consi- accounts; and it had been the intention derable reduction ini the cost of treatment. of the previous Government to treat the It had been his intention as Minister to smelting works at Phillips River as a bring the batteries more up to date by trading concern with a sum of £25,000 the installation of rock-breakiers and self- for the working of the scheme, sub- feeders, so as to bring about a consider- mitting the balance sheet to Parliament able reduction in the cost of treatment. each year, and having the books audited It was regrettable that there was only by the Crown, so that there would be £30,000 available for the development of no undue swelling of the Estimates; but this branch of th~e mining industry. Last some exception had been taken by the year promises had been made to have Audit Department as to the real meaning plants erected in various districts; and it of the Audit Act in this reguid, and he seemed that the money available would (Mr. Gregory) had intended to ask Par- not be sufficient to enable the Minister to liament this session to pass a small Bill give all these districts the promised which would enable this matter to be plants, or to make the plants more up to treated as a trading concern. Soe date. An item appeared on: the Esti- people thought it was hardly right the mates for the purchase of tailings. He Government should enter into such ab hoped the principle of tbe past was not dangerous undertaking as the erection of going to be departed from. If we started a smelter by which we might lose a great purchasing tailings there would he great sum of money; but no one had come danger. Tn the past tailings had been forward to erectEa smelter notwithstanding treated for people, the gold sent to the that a bonus of £1,500 had been offered. Mint, the cost of treatment deducted, and It was impossible to canry on mining in the balance of the money distributed pro the Phillips River district without a rata amuongst, the customers of the battery smelter. One leaseholder raised ten tons according to values of sands. A departure of ore to the value of £113 16s. 4d. ; from that system might result in a loss to and after paying the charges for carting the State. With regard to the smelter at it to Hopetoun and sending it to 1740 Estimatefe: [ASSEMBLY)[Sf~~ Minesie generalty.enrl

Wallaroo, the amount received was been made. As to the Steam Boilers Act £42 16s., the expenses not including the he regretted the department bad induced cost of bags, ha gging, and mining. This the Minister to increase the clerical cost showed that it was impossible for the of that department. For the past three miners in that district to continue mining years the department had always been unless they had exceptionally rich ore. represented as overworked, but he (Mr. The department took the greatest care, Gregory) was confident tbat the work having report after report on the district could be carried out well by the present and a special report by Mr. Montgomery, staff. If increases had to be given, they the State Mining Engineer; and then should be given to men who had proved careful an angements were made in regard so successful as inspectors of machinery to advances. Though copper was then and boiler inspectors. A distinct promise valued at £57 and was now over £60 in was given by him (Mr. Gregory) that value, the department would not allow this year two inspectors should receive the value of ore brought to the works to increases. Members would remember the be fixed at more than £60, and 10 per accident on the Great Boulder mine when cent. was deducted for smelting and Mr. Latimer was brought down to make other incidentals. Instructions were some tests. Mr. Liatimier proved himself given that no advances would be made on a good man, and when it was found that ore unless it came from development men travelled all over the goldflelds on a works; and between June of last year salary of £9200 a year, it was only right and January of this year, 3.095 tons of that such officers should receive increases. ore were brought to the office of the If we wished to keep good officials we department at Phillips River, for which must give them good salaries. There was an advance of £11,898 wats made. As no a good man in the Malcolm and Cue dis- person had come forward to erect a trict, and it would have been better if smelter the department came to the con- the Minister had given increases to these elusion that the State must erect one; offcers instead of increasing the cost of and having only £3,500 at his disposal. the local administration of the depart- he (Mr. Greoy stoppd making ment. There was an increase of £92,500 advances on oreadpr oeded at once to in connection with the administration of purchase and erect a smelter. The past the Mines Water Supply, which was for Government were fortunately able to upkeep and the wages of the caretakers. make arrangements with the banks to Last year the amount wats £12,608; this make advances to the mineowners to year it had increased to £15,138. When them assistance so as to carry* these items were reached it was to be ongive their work until the smelter was going. hoped the Minister would be able to give He felt hopef ul that with careful aodminis- good reasons for making the increases or tration the smelter would turn out well. it was to be hoped the Committee would It was bound to do good work if it was reduce the items. Men had been kept properly administered. When we found on as caretakers long after there was uo that from these 3,000 odd tons of ore water in the wells. Bad as it was last there would be a large sum of money year it was found that there were a good derived, even with the reduction made by many cases where men should not have the Government, it showed how valuable been kept on. As to the Dh~y Dawn the industry must be in the future. The Water Supply, he could not understand action of the late Government should be the item. The people of Cue and Day appreciated by the people at Phillips Dawn asked that this sum of money River. If the Minister for Mines had should be lent to them. He believed the asked the Houlse to start a trading people now desired that the money should account, members would have been able be lent to them. They wanted a trust to see how matters stood. The Govern- created, so as to work the water scheme ment might have asked for a farther sum themselves. The 1-ate Government decided of £10,000 or £12,000, which, with the to complete the work, to form a trust £12,000 from the ore, would give a capital of £20,000 to carry on this industry. We and give the wvork over tW the people. could then have ha~d a balance-sheet every If that was the desire now well and good, year, showing what profit or loss had but from the remarks of the Minister he Egfirnates. [8 DECEMBER, 1904.1 Es~mats:MineSIECEBER generally. 194.) 1741 did not know if that was the proposal or with him that technical schools under the not. Mines Department should he purely THE MINISTEZR: The hon. member had mining schools. The Coolgardie techni- not seen the Revenue Estimates. cal school should be a purely mining school; but because we could not have [MR. QUINL.AN took the Chair.] mining schools in other planes we should Inot debar people from having technical MR. GREGORY:- If there was some- schools so that mining subjects could be thing there he would be pleased to look imparted by the Education Department. into the matter, but he had expected an There was a promise that the knowledge item on the Estimates. In reference to imparted would be on the same lines as schools of mines, some objection had been that given. by the Mines Department. taken by the member for Dundas to therefore the students could go in for the dlosing down the (Joolgardie school as a examinations held under the school of school of mines and re-opening it as a mines. MYembers would find that was technical school. The best course to adopt the best princpet adopt so as to give in Western Australia was to have one facilite toal the people throughout good school of mines which people could the State. The schuilarships would he look up to and which would be unde'r the open to the scholars from the Educa- special control of the Mines Department. tion Departmeut or from the school of Because there was only one school of mines. By the Education Department mines, that should not prevent people in giving mining instruction, that would other districts having technical education enable students living away from Kal- given to them in mining and other sub- goorlie to win scholarships and finish jects. The school of mines should deal their education at the Kalgoorlie School with mining subjects in iota. He would of Min !s. If. there were to be two or not like to go to the Kalgoorlie School three schools of mines, they were sure to of Mines and find dressmaking and reduce the value of the mnain school, and cooking being taught there. it would be found diffcult, to get a, large MR. T. Bl. BATHF: It was done in the sum of money voted for the main -school. Adelaide School of Mines. Members were willing to spend a large irlnR. GREGORY: That was not a sum of money for a central school of school of mines, but a technical school. mines, but if there were a number of Hle desired to see one school for teaching smaller schools it would be impossible to purely mining subjects, but facilities get a, large grant. The Education should be gvnto other schools for Departm ent taught other subj ects besides having technca knowledge imparted. assay ing and mining. In con nection with Although it was impossible to have a the appointment of the State Mining mining school at Coolgardie, that should Engineer he (Mr . Gregory) thanked the not debar the people from obtaining member for Dandas for the remarks mining knowledge at the technical school. made. There was no more honourable There should be branches of the technical moan in the service than Mr. Montgomery. schools so that mining knowledge could He was a highly qualified scientific be taught under the Education Depart- gentleman, not afraid of hard work, ment.. There were technical schools at whose reports were well worth reading. Boulder and Coolgardie, and there was a IWhen that officer's engagement was ended splendid technical school in Perth. He he felt sure members would be quite desired to see a technical school estab- satisfied with the appointment. If ether lished at Cue, and he could not . under- duties were placed on M3r. Montgomery, stand why no effort had been made in such as reporting on mines, we should this direction. The people of Cue them- have to consider whether -we should not selves had evidently been magligent in the pay him a higher salary. It was not ver~y matter, for he had urged them to bring far distant when we might call upon him the question forward. There were many to make such reports. At the present outside districts where technical schools time there was no question of increase of should be established, not only to deal salary, because Mr. Montgomery was with mining but with other subjects. working under an agreement with which The imember for Dundas would agree he was well satisfied; and if members 1742 Estimates: [ASSEMBLY.] Mines generally. were as well satisfied with Air. Mont- perforating the bottomt they were able to gomery at the end of his engagement as give the prospectors four or five gallons be (M1 r. Gregory) was to-daty, no one at a time. This wats a cheap way of would object to increasing his salary, giving a small supply, and where the knowing that we should have a man of amrount of money at the disposal of the talents, honiesty, and integrity to make Minister was small, it was a good way of reports, if necessary, on the big mines of giving facilities to the prospectors in the Western Australia. In regard to the out-back country. We might say that water supply of Norsemnan, he saw a the only district prospected tip to the large tank there containing three million present time was the Kalgoorlie belt, and gallons of water which was cosoting the that could do with a lot of prospecting people 3s. 6d. per hundred gallons, and still; but we wanted to open up new gold- from which no revenue was being received, fields and try to give facilities for more not even to pay the cost of a caretaker. A people to be employed in the mining pumnp was securedaud the departmentwere industry. We wanted no Parochial spirit able to supply the local people witlh waterat in this matter. Take places like Black Is. 9d. instead of 8s. 6id. Some considera- Range, where a five-head plant was put tion should be given to the supply of uIP some time ago, and where it was now water on the north-east fields. At the seen that a 10-head plant should be present time throughout the north-east erected to keep the large number of lease- fields there was great necessity for the holders going. There were many other expenditure of more money to give water districts in which assistance could he facilities to the people. The Minister for given. The Minister could do a great Mines in reply to a question the other deal more. . He had carried out a large day said he did not think it was necessary amount of work, and he (Mi-. Gregory) at the present time to construct muore was not cavilling at anything the bon. dams. Members would remember that he gentleman had done, but the policy of (Mr. Gregory) cipposed an extension of the past must be continued. He was the Coolgardie Water Scheme to Menzies sorry the Minister would not be able to because of the great cost, and he could get a much larger sum of money, so that not see that it would be possible to make he could give more help to people who it a business undertaking; but he had were willing to prospect in the out-back promised to spend money in constructing districts. dams. Last year the Railway Depart- MR. T. H. BATH wished to make ment conveyed thousands of gallons of some remarks of a general nature, adopt- water into that part of the country, and ing the adage that " brevity is the soul at the present time he (Mr. Gregory) had of wit." In regard to State batteries he to make a request to the Railway Depart- accepted the view of other members to a ment to deliver water to Niagara. No large extent, that being that those who places had mnore, wretched water supplies had- stone crushed at State batteries than these districts. Something must in many cases took the best portions of be done to assist people by giving their reefs to have them crushed. This them a good water supply. There was largely due to the fact that the initial was no better way of assisting the work of opening up those mines, even if prospector, no better way of assisting the they only did it to a shallow depth, in- iminer, than by seeing that there was a volved considerable cost. In themajority fair supply of water. To carry water by of instances these peop~le had very train from Kalgoorlie right through limited means, and they mnust of necessity Menzies and up past Kanowna, must when they obtained a patch of gold take entail a very heavy expense indeed; so the best of it, in order to recoup them- he hoped the present Government would selves for the long period during which continue the work the late Government they had iZhthing. Although at one had started in trying to give better crushing they might have a large amount facilities for water to people in outside of gold, if it were spread over the time districts. They initiated a scheme by they had been getting nothing the amount patting down bore holes in back country per week would be a very insignificant places, where water could be obtained A sum. It would be well to make it known anything like a reasonable depth. By to the maining public, especially those Estimates. [8 DECEMBER, 1904.] Estmats:Mines~ DCE3BERgenerafty. 194.] 1743 engaged in prospecting for themselves just one of those particular propositions and having their stone crushed at State where one wanted a large initial sum at batteries, that we had a co-operative his disposal in order to carry on such provident society in this State under work without interruption. The first which they could register small companies five years of his experience in wining without any very great trouble and at a Icircles were spent in localities with just small expense. It would, lie believed, be a. similar class of ore to this, in New an advantage to encourage prospectors South Wales, where the ore contained willing to amalgamate in such co-opera- silver, copper, and a small amount of gold, tive companies for the purpose of carrying and the copper had to be treated by on development work in a particular smelting appliances such as blast fur- district. We had got into a very bad naces, Blast furnaces would only pro- habit in regard to our mining resources duce matte, which was not immediately when referring to them in a general marketable, but bad to be sent to works way;- mentioning the country extend- such as those at Friedhurg in Germany, ing from Phillips 'River in the south or Swansea in Wales. When one to Kim berley in the far north as reckoned the time spent in smelting the country only awaiting prospecting de- ore, then having the muatte shipped to the velopment in order for us to discover the old country or Germany and dealt with existence of enormous fields, perhaps not there, and then the time whichi was spent of the great magnitude and richness of while one was waiting for returns, a thle Kalgoorlie fields, but still of a very considera~ble period elapsed before one got rich nature. Certainly that was an nun- any return from that p)roduct. He knew ferous belt, inasmuch as we had many from his own experience of the silver and mines scattered over it; but we should copper mining company at Captain's only repeat, as far as Western Australia i Flat that it was six and up to 12 months was concerned, the history of all the great Ivery often before they got a return front countries of the world, when we admitted the smelting works in Germany or Wales the really great mining fields were few for the product sent to them to be- treated. and far between in that extensive countryv. And in this particular case of the Phillips We had extended our efforts over too River it would be absolutely necessary to large an area, and therefore had not have a. lrge sum at the disposal of the expended the money to the best advan- Mines Department, if they intended to tage. He believed our resources were carry on the smelting operations there sufficiently great and well known to people without interruption, and without putting outside without our exaggerating them, these prospectors, and those who were in and stating that we had rich fields only a. small way supplying the ore, to a great awaiting the expenditure of capital on deal of inconvenience., There was another' them, He believed that by doing that question-that in regard to the sum placed we were raising false hopes; and the on the Estimates for the inspection of our fact that in the past we had raised false mines. He agreed with the remarks of hopes on the part of those whto had the member for TLeonora that~ there was invested in our mines was the reason at necessity for an additional staff in order the present time why those people were to effic'iently carry out the inspection of chary of investing in our mining proposi-. our mines throughout this vast area. tions. /? In connection with the amount of IThose experienced in mining work would the Wile for the purpose of copper ore at recognise that whilst the filling up of Phillips River and the erection of the stopes to a -safe extent might involve smelter, it had been stated by some that increased cost, in the end it tended to the amount was altogether too large, and cheapen the cost of the mine, because it that a third of the sum named on the gave those engaged in the work a chance Estimates would be sufficient to enable of carrying it on under safer conditions, the people to carry on operations in this and the efficiency was greatly increased. particular centre. Fromn personal experi- In the past we hbu1 had reason to object ence extending over a considerable time strongly that this branch of mining had in this class of mining, he asserted that not been su~fficiently inspected. We had a third. of the sum on the Estimates had during the past rear a greatly in- would not he sufficient, and that this was Icreased percentage of accidents. He 1744 Estimates: ESEBY][ASSEMBLY.] MinesMnsgnrly generally. believed that -was in many instances due to terest was not taken in these important the fact that stopes were not fillea estimates. The member for Ivanhoe up to the extent they should be. It had (Mr. Scaddan) referred to agricultural been the practice in the past for those members. On all occasions, every agri- engaged in mnanaging properties to in- cultural member bad recognised that to dulge in the habit of gutting the mine, the mining industry our present agricul- The reason for that was that they secured tural development was due. As the re- their engagemient on the understanding cords would show, he (Mr. Piesse) bad that within a certain termn they would seeca frequently given due prominence to the considerable reduction in the amount of part played by the mining industry in cost in mining. And thatreduction in the promoting the general prosperity of the cost of mining was secured in this way: State. Agriculturists admitted the great they carried on their stopes very high impetus wining had given to their indus- without filling them up, and perhaps after try. The country's industries must be 12 months or two years they could show a regarded as a whole. Each was necessary reduction in the cost of the mine; bWt to the others ; and when the member fo~r afterwards someone else had to come in Menzies (Mr. Gregory) said that agri- and take charge of the property and culture should be subservient to mining, spend a considerable amount of money. he did not fully express his meaning; In regard, to the administration and for the hon. member would doubtless development of mining, numerous re- admit that agriculture, though finan- quests were put in for assistance under cially second to mining, was per- the Act, but we found that the trouble haps equally important. Had it not applicants had to take in order to secure been for members of old rtAriaments, that assistance discouraged them to such prior to the discovery of gold-members an extent that they very often discon- closely connected with agriculture- tinued their proposals and took no the rapid development of our goldfields farther interest in the matter. If? we would have been impossible. Those wanted this vote to be as useful as it known as the old West Australians, the should be, the operation of the Act to pioneers of agriculture, had always been those who required assistance should be and were still ready to do their best for facilitated. He believed the matter should the mining industry. He would always be left much to the State Mining Engineer, support any reasonable and necessary in whom we had confidence, to report and proposal for the development of mining. Practically give a verdict as to whether The copper ore smelter at Phillips River the money should be granted or not. seemed necessary, and would probably As to the total of the Mines Estimates, be successful. Though great credit was though it showed a considerable increase, due to the mcmuber for Menzies (Mr. surely iivo one, no matter ina what industry Gregory) for putting State batteries on a he was interested, would cavil at the pay*able footin~g, the credit of their initia- amount. Our great industries should, as tion was due to the old Forrest Govern- far as possible, be worked in unison. ment, who committed the country to an They were interdependent. Agricul- expenditure which had resulted in a very tnrists depended largely on the mining satisfactory development of mining. Had population for a. ready' and profitable they not initiated State batteries, we market; and considering. thes uncertain- mi,4ht, nevertheless, have such batteries ties of mining, the mining population to-day; but it must not be forgotten must largely rely on those engaged in that the Forrest Government had to hear agriculture to preserve the stability of the brunt and incur the expense of the the country. So expenditure, whether initiatory work. The succeding Govern- for encouraging mining or for agricul- ment had the advantage of their pre- tural development, must be regarded decessors' experience, and of railway from a national standpoint, mining and communication not available in the agriculture being the two great staple earlier days; and the State batteries industries of the country, and worthy of were now payable, and were pointed to all encouragement. with pride by the people, and parti- HON. F. H. PIESSE:- Judging by cularly by those responsible for their the thinness of the House, adequate in- introduction. These batteries enabled the Estimates : [8 DECEMBER, 1904.] .Flsimaes:[Sines EC~EB,190.]generally. 1745 small miner to develop shows which would West Australians did not invest in otherwise remain unworked. The money mining. If by West Australians we earned by such prospectors remained in meant the men who were here prior to the the country; and whether it was ex- discovery of gold, their present number pended in mining, agriculture, or com- was very small compared with that of merce, all were benefited as a result of newcomers; but if the phrase meant the the establishment of State batteries. The present residents in the country, we must member for Ivanhoe spoke, doubtless remember that all our people were with authority, of explosives. He (Mr. workers. Even business men needed all Piesse), during a recent visit to the fields, their capital to enable them to face the had made certain inquiries and gained keen competition of rivals; and there much information. He was there while was no spare capital for mining invest- the Royal Commission was inquiring ments. But in the early days of gold- into the use of explosives, and making mining, the old West Australians spent independent experiments. He indorsed probably more than any other section of the opinion of the er-Minister for Mines the people. Many 'of them spent their (Mr. Gregory) as to the ability of the all to develop mining in Kimnberley officers engaged in that inquiry. The and Southern Cross. The losses country was to be congratulated on sustained by them in Kimberley were having such good men in the ser- considerable in proportion to their wealth; vice as Mr. McDonald, and Mr. Mann and in mining development they had the chief analyst. Though all the mem- probably spent much more than was bers of the commission did good work, being spent to-day by any other people. Mr. Mann on many occasions risked his Though our commerce was on a sound life by putting on a smoke dress and business footing, competition here was entering workings immediately after an probably as keen as in any other part of explosion, to collect by means of a Australia, or of the world. Rents and pump and bag the fames it was desired other expenses were so high that most to examine. Analyses showed that none business men had a struggle to keep of the explosives in use could be con- going; hence they could not invest like demned, though doubtless objectionable people in the old country, where theme explosives could be found, like those was always a large fund, the accumula- mentioned by the member for Ivanhoe. tion of years, awaiting investment. The He (Mr. Piesse) was informed that some people of this State had great faith in of the men themselves were very careless the country and in its mineral resources, in using explosives, not waiting long and if they had the money available they enough before commencing work after would not be afraid to venture it in this firing. One instance was brought under industry. It was an important industry, his notice of a man who fired a shot, and it was the feeling of country mem- almost immediately went in to remove the bers that they owed thanks to it for debris, and sent up some 15 or 2O buckets giving agriculture a great impetus. Agri- of it before he felt the effect of the culture was second only in many respects fumes which the fall of earth had im- to mining, and it must ultimately become prisoned. He narrowly escaped with the first industry of the State. his life; but for that the explosive was not to blame. Nevertheless, all must [MR BATH took the Chair.] agree with the hion. member that every precaution should be taken to minimise MR. W. NELSON: The small number risk and to facilitate the examination of of agricultural members in the Rouse explosives before they reached the mining was clear evidence of the sympathy felt districts, such as were defective being by them for the mining industry. condemned. We could rely on our MR. RAsoN:; There was also a small present analyst and inspector of ex- number of nmining members present. plosives, who took immense interest in MR. NELSON: There was no anta- his work. We needed enthusiasts, pro- gonistic feeling between the variousin vided they were experienced. The recent dustries in the State. All industries inquiry would doubtless have a good were important in their way, and every result. The statement was made that member recognised the fact. Something 1746 Estirntaes: [SEBY1Mnsgnrly[ASSEMBLY.] Mines generally. might be done in the way of electing ermnent where artesian water would mining boards in the various mining dis- probably be struck. The co-operation of tricts. These boards could be elected by the Minister for Lands could be obtained the miners and by the general community in this regard. It was in Kimnberley that to exercise some jurisdiction over sAmi- it was first proved that gold existed in tation and accidents, and things of that Western Australia; and he (Mr. Connor) kind. Another matter that might ulti- was one of the first to help to develop mately be accomplished was that mine that goldfield and was the first to dis- managers and people holding responsible tribute stores on any goldfield in Western positions in mines should have licenses Australia. Even in the glamour of the which could be revoked if the holders Eastern Goldfields which had been such were connected with transactions of a a great boon to the State, we should not doubtful character, just as the licenses of forget that there were other places land surveyors were revoked on occasions. deserving of our consideration that The recent scandals in the mining in- were at present comparatively neglected. dustry would justify the Government The Minister should keep Kimberley in adopting some such principle. By the mind; and as a matter of sentiment, comparatively generous Mines estimates should ntngett rvd ml the Government recognised the value of sum onoth neet tpides ao sl the mining industry, and they were wise deeomn thenx.siae o t in doing so, for money wisely spent in D.ELLIS: The prospecting vote the development of this industry was not was much too small. Seeing that itwas only a benefit to those engaged in it, but proposed to spend £100,000 in immigra- to all other industries in the State. tion to develop agricultural settlement, MR. F. CONNOR: There was not a £7,000 was a trifling amount to be large vote for prospecting. The most expended on the development of the important part of the mining industry great industry of the State. The Minister was to find out where auriferous areas would do well to treble or quadruple the existed ; and the best way to spend vote. If we succeeded in getting one money in developing the mining industry good goldfield we did more good than was to encourage prospecting in districts developing our agricultural area. not very well prospected up to the present. HON. F. H. PissE: QuestionP MR. ScnmDAN: And to encourage DR. ELLIS: So far as present cir- prospectors to work the land when cumstances went. All the agricultural found. areas in the world would not help the MR. CONNOR: And to give them a development of the goldfields. When better title than at present. In the far the goldfields ceased it would be time to North there were areas known to be gold- consider the question of developing agri- bearing which had not yet been pros- culture. There was a prospector's con-' pected. Unfortunately some of these ferenee sitting at Kalgoorlie. areas ran across the border into South MR. Rtsox: It was over. Australia; but even if a goldfield were Dii. ELLIS: The recommendations found on the South Australian side of they brought forward should be con- the border, it would pay Western Atis- sidered. He believed they were bringing tralia, on the chance of gold being found forward recommendations in connec- on our side Of the border, to encourage tion with this matter. A good sum prospecting in a district of which the of money should be devoted to de- Minister already knew something. At veloping shows at present in existence. any rate, the whole of the trade must It was as much to the interest of the necessarily come to Western Australia, State to develop good mines as to find because there was no port on the South new fields. One other matter which Australian side of the border. On the might engage the attention of the Min- next Estimates we should have an ister was that the principle introduced as amount for the specific purpose of pros- to the purchase of ore at Phillips River pecting in the direction indicated. might be carried out in regard to the Arrangements should also be made to purchase of quartz and gold ore. The send a geologist to the North to locate Government might purchase ore in dis- mineial country and to advise the Gov- tricts with a view to erecting a battery. Mhinafes: [8 DECPMBER, 1904.] Estmats:Mines S lzcnn,190.] generally. 1747

No great injury could be done to State by purchasing ore on a percentage.the :n.solbeplee 1ET ANN: of the Goldfield manner membersin which What had been found of great advantage the Mines estimates had been received. in connection with the copper industry at All recognised that the mining industry Phillips River might also be carried out should receive assistance to a greater in regard to the gold-mining industry in extent than it had in the past. Some- places where there Were no public bat- thing had been said about the prospecting inspection of mines was- vote. Not sufficient money appeared on teiePfheinuint, not only from the view of the these estimates for assistance to pros- miners, but from the view of the share- pectors. The Government might grant holders. It was to be hoped the Mfinister money on the same lines as was done in next year would see that some scheme of Victoria, having a separate prospecting State inspection of mines was brought vote. It would be better for the whole forward. It would do away with a great State if this were done. In speaking of many disadvantages which at present prospectors, one did not only mean men exists& as to the swindles in properties, who went out prospecting new country and piace gold mines on a better basis. but those who were working small shows, It would have the advantage of encourag- who after getting dlown to water were ing people in the State to invest their unable to carry on. It would pay the capital in gold-mining here. At present country if the Government helped these there was no reasonable way of acquiring men to develop their shows. The same information as to mines, with a guaran- system in vogue in regard to buying tee behind it. It was hardly necessary copper ore should be initiated in regard to go into the matter of State trading to the purchase of gold ore. lHe wel- concerns; that had been fully dealt with, comed any sybtein by which there would but next year it was to be hoped the be greater development of small shows, Minister for Mines would bring down but he did not know how the Government the accounts in a much better fashion would manage it. Small mineowners than they were brought down this year. had evidently caught the complaint of A, good deal had been said about the use nondevelopment from the old English of bad explosives, but this was being companies in the past. There were overcome by spraying. Not so much many huge mining concerns in the care was now taken in regard to getting State not doing sufficient development good explosives, for spraying the face work. He (Mr. Heitmans) had worked after an explosion carried away the in one mine where a sum of .£250,O000 injurious fumes. 'This was all impor. bad been spent, but out of that sum taut to the State and might bring neaT Dot £20,000 had been spent below the at hand the manufacture of explosives. surface. Was there any reason why we The member for Menzies was to be could not get capital into the State? congratulated on his administration of He was surprised that a sum of money the Mines Department in the past. had not been placed on the estimates No word had been heard of had adininis- for a school of mines on the Murchison. tration of the Mines Department under Ministries in the past had only thought him. The fee of 10s. for cyaniding was of the Eastern Goldfields, but those who amn exorbitant charge. The amount had travelled through tbe Murchison should be brought down to 8s., and, if would say that the Murchison in the possible, to 6s. a ton. The cost to cyanide future might be a bigger field than any on a large scale was Bs. 6d. to 4s., and it Eastern Goldfield. A large amount of never rose to more than 8s. He did not money was going out of the State every see why the cost should be so excessively year. The State did not get a fair high when private concerns could carry benefit from the amount of gold won. of s. The He suggested that the Minister for Mines d ing a tan average cost onca h olders h a-dco me should bring in a Bill to provide that prosc tra d sm all each company should lay aside a pro- The Government should Dot desire to portion of their dividends as a reserve make money out of the transaction ; they fund, so that when the rich deposits should simply pay the bare expenses for worked out there would be something the sake of the assistance given to mining. left for development. In connection 1748 Estimate8: EASSEMBLY.] Mines genzerally/. with the school of mines he was this £1 7.000 was practically a loan to the surprised to hear the member for Ivanhoe municipalities of Day Dawn and Cue. -speak bitterly against American and He had sufficient confidence in those English mine managers. It was a people to believe that they would charge narrow view to take. While be recog- a6 price for the water which would pay nised that Australian mine managers interest and sinking fund on the amount. could hold their own with mining Ala. N. J. MOORE congratulated the managers from any part of the world, he Minister on his speech, and also the gave credit to some of the managers fromt member for Menzies on his very able other countries who had come to this criticism of these estimates. At the same State. The manager of the Fingal was time he was rather surprised that in his an American, and the country lost a good speech the Minister did not refer to any man when this gentleman left; for be mining industry but gold-mining. We proved to be a practical mining manager, had tin and copper mines, and there had having cut the wotung expenses of the been, or was at the present time mine down from 19s. 6d. to 13s. 4d. going on, a considerable amount of Members bad mentioned Roberts and prospecting with reference to oil in Hamilton, but these men had not reduced the Warren district. He hoped the the mining cost to 13s. 4d. He was Minister would take the opportunity a sorry the Minister could not see his way little later on of giving as a little informa- to increase the vote for State batteries. tion with regard to what was being done The Government looked too much for a in the boring there, and also what was return. If a battery did not exactly pay being done in boring for coal on the its way directly, there was the indirect Irwin. Some members had complained benefit to the cornmnunity, therefore we that the increase of £88,208 in this year's should have more batteries established. Estimates was hardly enough; but con- Another matter in connection with the sidering the position of the finances of the Mines Department, not mentioned this State at present the Government were evening, and in relation to which he treating that industry liberally, and he must give credit to the previous Govern- thought members were prepared to sup- mnent, was the appointment of a Royal port them in so doing. As to what Commission to inquire into the ventila- had been said in relation to old tion and sanitation of mines. Many West Australians regarding mining l)To- members believed that this money would positions, most of us had gone through be wasted, but for his part he thought the mill in the early days. In the days that if there was one reform in con nec- of Southern Cross everyone miortgaged tion with the industrial life of Western his screw to put a little bit into Southern Australia that was required more than Cross, and when Bayley's turned up many another, it consisted of better conditions old settlers were rather shy of putting for the miners. If something was not any-thing into that, although those who done for the mining whilst the mines had an opportunity of visiting the fields were comparatively shallow, a time would in the early dlays and inspecting what was come when half the miners would have to then known as the jeweller's shop realised be kept by the State. We had had thme that it was far superior to anything ever experience of Victoria and many other seen before in Western Australia. It and in is to notice that the countries in the world, wavry p leasing also mining if the appointment of this Royal lease had goe up last year from 2.026, Commissionopinion cost £100,000 the money with an area of 27,044 acres, to 2,146 would have been well spent if we got a leases with an area of 28,850 acres to good scheme of ventilation and sanl- July of this year. We understood from tion for the miners. Another matter the Minister that since then the leases criticised by a majority of members this had totalled up to 2,304. That was very evening was the Day Dawn and Cue pleasing indeed. - And it was also pleas- Water Supply. He could not see why ing to know that notwithstanding the members should take exception to this output was not quite up to what it was vote. Some members thought the scheme last year, still the dividend had consider- should be handed over to a board. As a ably increased. With reference to what matter of fact that had been done, and had been stated as to mining schools, Estimates: [8 DECEMBER, 1904.] Estmats:Mines~ DCEMER,190.]generally. 1749 that he thought was a question which were both satisfied that it was to the best would appeal to members. What lad interests of the country that they should struck him in his visit to the fields after remain as they stood, we as lay members, an absence of a few years was the if he might so speak, would be satified to difference between the calibre of the men accept them as such. who apparently were controlling the THE MINISTER FOR MINES (in mines. In the early days we saw the old reply generally) : Before the vote was type of Cornish mine captain. Now we put he would like to devote a few minutes, saw instead of an elderly man a smart in the first place to thank members for bright young man educated up to the their very generous criticism of the Mines highest pitch ; and if we were to keep pace estimates, and also for the large amount with the times it was absolutely necessary of good advice they bh given him as to that the youth of Western Australia how to conduct this department. He should have every opportunity of acquiring would do his best to use the advice so far that technical knowledge which was so as he thought it would assist in the de- essential to the life of the country. The velopment of the mining industry. The expenditure of any money in encouraging hon. member who had just sat down higher education, technical education, an called attention to one matter which he scientific education would have the (the Minister) omitted in speaking last support of all those who were interested night. That was that there were one or in the development sad prosperity of two other minerals besides gold andecopper. Western Australia. The agricultural He omitted to mention them last night members had always given every support because he had already spoken for about to any movement which had for its object three-quarters of an hour, and he did not the advancement and development of the wish to tire the House with farther mining industry. It would be recollected details. He would now take this oppor- that in the early days of the development tunity to state that so far as the coal of the wining industry the support industry was concerned, all members of received by the then Premier, Sir John the House were as well aware of the Forrest, for the railway and other circumstances at the Collie as he himself. pioneering works in coonetion with the Dr. Jack was now conducting an inquiry eastern fields was from the agricultural as a Royal Commissioner; and until hi members. We all knew as a matter of report was available it would be unwis history that the Coolgardie Water Scheme to enlarge on this subject. Some time was carried by Sir John Forrest with the ago the Government arranged to assist support of the agricultural members people who were boring for coal at against many members who were, he Mingenew, on the Midland line, with a believed, representing goldfields interests. view to supplying the Murchison mines. He felt sure that they in their wisdom In the near future a large part of the would, when the time came for considera- Murchison district would be denuded of tion to be given to the expenditure in firewood. The boring at Mingeneiv had regard to agricultural development, realise been unsuccessful, and had recently been that these two great industries must abandoned in spite of a considerable advance side by side, and that the outlay. Since then, in conformity with development of the agricultural industry an old arrangement, the Government had was of no value unless the goldfields also arranged for boring to start next week .provided a market and the goldfields near Mullewa, much closer to the Murchi- developed with the agricultural industry. son field. Tin-mnining still continued on As far as he was personally concerned he a fair scale at Greenbushes and in the was very pleased to see the way in which Pilbarra district. At both places the the Estimates had been received, and he workings were confined to alluvial tin; hopedwthat when the items came along yet those two districts were probably as they woud not be subject to captious good as any other tin districts in Aus- criticism, but that we should realise that tralia, though neither had sufficient water the Minister now in office and the member for hydraulic sluicing, otherwise our tin- for Meazies had both devoted a great fields would be much more valuable. In deal of time and attention to thbose reply to the member forBunbury~he might Estimates. When we realised that they say that no one in Western Australia had 1750 Flstirnates:[A [ASSEMBLY.)E BL.Miegneal Atines generally yet struck "ile," despite the work done decline. That was not his (the Minister's) and tbe money expended in the Warren experience. Surely there was more district. The Government had given a genuine prospecting now being done in fair subsidy for boring from the 1001%. the State than had ever been done before. level downward; but no result had yet True, people were not going out with been reported. Another syndicate was horses and camels into the wilderness about to bore for oil at the Duke of to pick out areas of scrub from which Orleans Bay, in the Esperance district. they could raise a few colours with a Though the project had not been officially view to floating the proposition. Our reported on, he was informed the syndi- people were engaged mn legitimate cate felt confident that they had a good prospecting. If a man found gold, chance of success. With what was said he worked it; and much of the ground by the members for Katanning and thus discovered was being worked with and Eunbury as to the feeling of farming local capital. That, though perhaps not members towards the mining industry, the rule in the out-back districts, was he quite agreed; and he would never certainly true of Southern Cross, Kal- find fault with that feeling if it were goorlie, and various other centres. It always constant. But many agricul- was gratifying to have an opportunity of turists and many people in Perth itself showing the other side of the question to were constantly pointing out that mining the hon. member, who was so accustomed was temporary, that our goldfields would to hearing his own statements elsewhere soon be worked out; yet those very men that he thought them fair statements to were wondering why people would not makre in this House. The member for invest in our mines. Dundas (Mr. Thomas) considered that MR. RAsoN: Name them. people in his district did not think he THE MINISTER: The hon. member had been enthusiastic about the smelter; knew them, and had heard many 'similar but members of last Parliament could remarks even in this House. The blame scarcely realise that. Any member could for the reluctance of local and foreign bear testimony to the fact that, if it had investors to embark in our mining enter- not been for the persistency of the hon. prises was largely due to the fears so member, there would have been little constantly expressed by some of our own chance of the smelter being erected. At people. He (the Minister) had always the time no one was accustomed to copper; held consistently that the mining indus- and it was only the lion. member's per- try was at least as stable as any other sistent urgings that justified the member industry in the State. Though individual for Menzies in bringing that smelter mines could be exhausted,, yet generally about. The member for Dundas said he speaking no goldfield in Australia had had been blamed for not doing a great ever yet been exhausted unless worked deal more for the Phillips River part -of for alluvial merely. There was no scien- his electorate, but if every member tific or empirical reason for assuming showed as much enthusiasm for the that any of our goldfields were likely to needs of his constituents as the member be exhausted in this or the next genera- for flundas, the position of the Minister tion. He was certain that 50, 60. or 80 for Mines would not be worth holding. years hence our goldfields would be in a (MR. ItAsow: How nice!] Considerable far better position than they now ocenpied. criticism was levelled at the manner in Various members commented on the which the various items appeared on thd small number of local people who invested Estimates, especially with regard to the in our mines. That complaint shou~ld smelter and the Cue-Day Dawn water not be pushed too far. In proportion to scheme. No doubt these things should population, we had as many local inves- be treated as trading concerns, and tors as other countries could claim, and should not unduly load our Estimates. our people as a whole had far more money It seemed to be one of the habits the to invest than had the people of any Western Australian people had got into to other country. The member for Sussex place these things on the Estimates ; but (Mr. Frank Wilson) surprised him by he (the Minister) had done his utmost to stating that prospecting was in this State frame the Estimates in the way members almost a thing of the past, or was on the wished, and had been unable'to do so. Botimates. [8 DECENDEft, 1904.1 Estiate:Mines [8DECMBER generaly.194.] 1"151

The member fo r Guildford (Mr. Rasouf) Ipeople bad the same fault. When it claimed it was easy to do so, but be (the became too troublesome to mine deeper, Minister) had not found it easy. [MR. few would go to the expense of develcp- BAsoNq: What about the Audit Act ?3 ing new portions of a mine. Some other Ever 'y time the proposition had been mnethod. than any so far suggested would brought forward, other people had put be required to get over the difficulty. a different interpretation on the Act. Refere ice was made to the State Mining [Mr. Rison: What other peopleF] Must Engineer, and he (the Minister) need not every authority 1)8 given? It was not say that he thoroughly indorsed .every- necessary. The hon. gentleman could thing. It was suggested that when his accept his (the Minister's) word for it. term of engagement expired, Mr. Mont- If there had beets an opportunity of gomery should receive a higher remnunera- putting these matters into trading con- tion. It was to be hoped Parliament cerns, he would have been the first person would have an opportunity of considering to do so. that question; but it was doubtful. Mn. GRE~orcY: Could not a small Bill After his term of service in this Stte, be introduced to amend the Audit Act? Mr. Montgomery's services would be Tim MINISTER: A small Bill intro- invaluable; and he would have the same duced at the -beginning of the session weakness as most men and would sell his would have got over the difficulty, Ile labour to those who would best appreciate had been desirous of getting an expression it in a financial sense. Many mining of opinion on the subject, and now had men in far less responsible positions in that expression of opinion which would this State were paid up to three times as enable him as soon as possible to make a much as Mr. Montgomery received. differenee to the Estimates; but members MR. THOMAS: We must keep him. should. not suppose that by making an THE MINISTER: That would be alteration we would make any difference difficult. It was obviously impossible regarding the deficit. The leader of the for the State to remunerate. talent as it Opposition declared he wouldl take an was remunerated outside the service. opportunity of trying to reduce this MR. Tuzox&s:- The State must get the amount, in order, if possible, to wipe out best men. the deficit; but it would do nothing of THE MINISTER: Yes; and he would the sort. It was only a bookkeeping not he one who would show undue itema. The member for Dundas and economy. When it came to the point, others p)ointed out that people who crushed few members would like to pay too high at. public hatteries did not develop their a salary. The member for Iv-anhoe mines as they ought to develop them; (Mr, Scaddan). in one of his characteristic and it was suggested that an inspection speeches, had mentioned somne interesting of mines might be wade, and that the points. The first one was in regard to people who did not develop their mines the justification for the expenditure of should not get the same privileges at £2650 for 5,000 copies of the West public batteries as thosie who did do so; Australian Mining hzduetry. The object but he (the Minister) did not think such of securing these copies w-as to advertise a scheme would prove practicable. The the State and its mineral resources. If same complaint was made on every the hon. gentleman had not seen a copy, mining field in the world of every class of he (the Minister) would take the oppor- people. In Victoria, where there were no tunity of showing him an advance copy. public batteries, the trouble had been It was well to advertise the State, that people spent all their profits in especially in London, because there we dividends and did not devote them to had been connected as much with roguery developing their mines. It was the same as with gold. Many people in London here. Those who crushed at public bat- believed that there were a great many teries did not develop their wines, and a dishonest people in Western Australia., and great proportion of tbe English companies that the reports in the papers were untrue. working in this country was guilty It was to the interest of the State that of the same unfaithful kind of mining. It we should tell the people in London was an exception for an English company exactly how we stood.- One member to go lower than 150 feet. AUl classes of stated that an amendment of the Mines 1752 jVlstmale8 [ASSE-MBLY.]ASsL.:insgnrly Mines generally. bIevelopinent Act was necessary so that m~aking a profit, but we could not divorce the Government could lend money wore the two processes. If we lost by one freely than was done at the present time. process we expected to make a little by The member for Coolgardie complained the other. One member said it was that people had so much trouble in possible to carry on cyaniding at a cheaper applying to the Government for assist- rate than 10s. That was true; but was ance that very few applications were not 10s. cheap enough? He (the Minister) miade, but he could assure members that had made inquiries, and found there was statement was hardly correct, for if he not a person in the State who crushed or agreed to one half or one-third of the cvanided for people at a cheaper rate. It applications made, any sum of money cbuld be dlone if the work were carried voted by Parliament would he gone long out on a very large scale. If the Govern- before the end of the financial year. The ment had a 40 or 50-bead mill and every- Government were never sure whether it thing up to date there would be no was wise to assist people who applied or difficulty. If we were to unduly reduce not. So far as experience went he was the price for cyaniding we must incur a bound to admit that in few if in any loss on the public battery system: it was eases good ad resulted. If in a a matter of pounds, shillings, and pence. small proportion of cases good was done The member for Menzies said that the we were justified in spending money to Government had not forgotten Pilbarm. develop the mining resources. The most He (the Minister) agreed in that state- astonishing remark of the member for ment. If we took into consideration the Ivanhoe was in reference to explosives. population of Pilbarra, more was done He said that a large proportion of the for Pilbarra, than for any other mining explosives landed at Fremnantle were not district iu Australia. Within a com- sound. He the Minister had previously paratively short time a battery had been stated that three per cent. of every ease erected at Pilbaria, and a number of was examined. We buod done more for wells were being sunk. Almost every explosives in this State than had been reasonable assistance had been given, yet done in any other State or in any country members wished more to be done. He in the world, and we were determined to did not know whether the Ministry would see that we bad good explosives in this be justified in spending a greater amount State. With reference to what had been in that district than in other mining said by a member that nine cases of districts. He could assure the member explosives had been condemned recently for Sussex that Pilbarra was not one of in Kaigborlie, that was correct. Mr. those districts that had waited a long Mann, the chief inspector of explosives. time for assistance. travelled about Kalgoorlie and the fields MR. FRANK: WILsoN: Was it not part to see if the explosives were good. He of the policy of the Government to build had to see they were good when landed a railway thereP and that they were kept in a good Tas MINISTER FOR MINES: No condition. It was within the know- Government had promised to build a rail- ledge of members that after 18 months way to Pilbarra, a district which had or two years or three years, explo- nothing to complain of. He was su-- sives ceased to become reliable- If prised to hear the member for Kimberley Mr. Mann came across explosives which say that the North-West was in want of he believed were of ancient date, he con- a geologist. The North-Wesqt district demned them and saw that they were had bad the services of probably the destroyed. A complaint had been made best geologist in Australia for the greater that the Government ought to give better portion of the past two years. Mr. Mait- crushing facilities. He (the M1inister) land had spent a large amount of time would like to give better facilities for the recently in the Kimberley district and treatment of sand, aud was willing to do also at Pilbarra; therefore that district so if Parliament voted the money. -At had not much to complain of. He would present the Government were crushing be glad to discuss various matters for people at a price that admittedly was with members when the items were not paying. So far as cyaniding sand reached. He took that opportunity of was concerned the Government might be thanking members for their fair criticism Estimates: [8 DzcFmRER, 1904.] Estmats:Mines8DC~mER,190.] generally. 1753 of the Estimates, and he hoped the same *the width of the reef from which they took spirit would be shown during the farther that ore, and let tha4t be recorded in the discussion of the items. book; and the Minister would see the Mr.. THOMAS: In speaking previously necessity that they should take a certain he had omitted to mention one thing, and proportion from development work, which lhe craved the indulgence of the Committee they should have crushed at a reduced to refer to it now. He had spoken pre- charge. And afterwards when someone viously in regard to the public battery wanted to buy that property there would system, and had stated that the Gov- be some record upon which one could ernment should insist that a certain *act aind work., He might not be here at proportion of the ore crushed should a latter time when the details of these be taken from development work. 'He IEstimates were dealt with. He warned would simply like to repeat that, and the House now as he had in the past, to urge upon the Minister foi Mines as knowing from his own practical experi- strongly as he possibly could that he ence what this meant, he warned the should make regulations straight away Minister to make some regulations of this that a certain proportion of the ore which sort, to protect these men against them- was crushed at the public batteries selves; and these men afterwards would should he taken from the development be the first to bless him for the action he work. He would urge also that the hon. might take. He asked the indulgence of gentleman should make a. reduction if the Committee to allow h int to wake that necessary on that ore which was taken statement in amplification of what he had from development; and he wished to warn said before-. He would congratulate the hima as a mining man that if that was House as he had done during the last not done, instead of our public batteries three years upon the large number of provn a blessing to the mining industry members always ready to sit in this ofoWestern Australia, they would prove Rouse when the Estimates were con- to be a curse. He was speaking of that sidered dealing with the industry on which he knew. which the country depended. He looked MR. GREGORY: The position was a around as ho had dune on various little serious just now. We were not occasions during this sitting when we getting the development we expected. Ihad been discussing these Estimates, and MR. THOMAS: We were not getting as he had looked in previous years, and the development we expected. We were he found about 9, 10 or a dozen men getting ready-made cemeteries through- sitting here to discuss the Estimates out the length and breadth of the mining dealing with an industry upon which the districts of Western Australia. As a, fate of the Country depended. He con- mining man he knew what that meant. gratulated members upon the splendid If he was called upon as the repre- waty in which they always attended the sentative of foreign 'capital to ex- discussion on the Mining Estimates. amine these properties, he would find a Item-Wardens, bhole in the ground, with no records as to two at £700, one at the value of the reef, no records of what £600, four at £500, one at.-£480 had been done and no development, but MR. GREGORY wished to call atten- the prospector had gouged out the eyes tion to this item. There was an increase of that property. 'He asked the Minister in the vote. rerhaps the Minister would to bring in some regulations. Ithadheeti report progress. his intention to bring a motion before Tax, MINISTER: Yes. this 'House, but he had no desire to ask rrogress reported, and leave given to the House to sit one day beyond what sit again. was needful. He would bring that for- ADJOURNTMENT. ward at a, proper time. But he hoped The House adjourned at eighteen the Minister would listen to him as a minutes past 11 o'clock, until the next mining man when he asked him to bring Tuesday afternoon at 2-30 o'clock. forward regulations that these prospec- tors should he compelled to keep some record of the value of the ore they were crushing; where they took that ore from,