Christian Kelley-Madera Hey everyone!

Some new bonus content for you today, it’s a showcase episode featuring Yhane Smith, the creator, writer, and producer of the audio drama QUEEN. Zach chatted with Yhane for a bit, so you’re gonna hear that chat as well as an excerpt from HARLEM QUEEN.

But first!

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Also!

Real quick, we are coming up on deadlines in a lot of places to register to vote in the US presidential election this year. If you are planning to vote, go ahead and double check that you are registered and that all your info is up to date - you can do that at vote.org if you don’t know where else to start - and make sure you have a plan to vote safely what with, you know the virus and all. If you are not currently planning to vote, I would strongly encourage you to consider it. Not gonna lecture anybody, but if you’re trying to decide whether to vote, hit me up on Twitter, I’m @Ctmadera - slide in those DMs and I will be happy to tell you why I’m choosing to vote and why I really think you should too.

Ok, that’s all for now - upwards and onwards to the showcase, and I will talk to you soon!

Zach Glass Hello everyone. I'm so excited that today we're joined by Yhane Smith, the creator, the writer, the producer of the Harlem Queen podcast. Yhane, welcome.

Yhane Smith Thank you, thank you for having me.

Zach Glass I'm so excited. I've really loved your show. Why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about your show? What's Harlem Queen about?

Yhane Smith Harlem queen is an audio drama. And it's based on the life and times of Madame Stephanie St. Claire, who was an actual woman who lived in Harlem during the 1920s and 30s. And into the 60s, who was a

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policy banker, which is basically an illegal lottery . And so she was a black woman, and she independently built this policy bank empire from the ground up. And as a result of that, not only will she be, you know, became a wealthy person, but she was also able to help her community, the Harlem community through philanthropy and activism.

Zach Glass Mm hmm. It's a really fascinating story. It's incredible to listen to, to hear in your show how you convey all those parts of Madame St. Claire's life and her legacy, I guess. I was wondering, even though I grew up in New York, not in the city I had never heard Stephanie St. Claire's story. So I was wondering, how did you sort of learn about her story and decide that this is the story you want to turn into audio drama form?

Yhane Smith Yeah, well, I had never heard of her myself until about two or three years ago. And I grew up in South Jersey, in Hamilton, New Jersey, which is the blueberry capital of the world. I'm always telling people, but I've always wanted to live in Harlem. And I've always been fascinated by the Harlem Renaissance, which is this time 1920s into the 1930s, in Harlem, where you had this influx of African Americans coming from the south to the north to escape, you know, besides other things, Jim Crow and looking for better opportunities and housing and jobs and whatnot. So I've always been fascinated with that era. And so when I was writing this story, I started off with writing about my favorite writers from that time, like Langston Hughes and Zora Neale Hurston, and I just thought, wow, this the story needs a little punch. And so I did a quick Wikipedia search and saw this name, Madame St. Claire. And I mention this to people all the time, I just assumed in my limited- in my ignorance that this madam was a brothel madam, like a whorehouse madam. I had no idea that she was like, a businesswoman. And so I ignored it, and then -- Anyway, long story short, I go back to finally click on that link. And I realized, Oh, my, this is a black woman in the 1920s and 30s. I had no idea. I mean, I wish I had clicked on the link, like a year before. Just would've saved me a lot of drafts. I don't think anyone should feel bad about not knowing who she was. Because, you know, like we're all discovering nowadays, especially nowadays is that you know, whoever gets to tell the story controls the narrative, right? And gets to control what's, you know, on those Wikipedia pages or history books, and so the story that I kept coming up against was that , who was a mobster from the Bronx at that time, beat out Stephanie St. Claire and her Empire, but Stephanie St. Clair actually survived Schultz,

Zach Glass Oh, wow.

Yhane Smith Like so who really won, you know? Schulz was murdered in 1935 I think, and Stephanie St. Clair lived well into I believe her 60s. Yeah.

Zach Glass

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Oh, wow. Yeah, that's incredible. And it's so interesting sometimes, like you said, who determines who gets to tell the stories. You mentioned, over the course of the podcast, you do reference a bunch of the, I want to say more famous writers and poets from that time, Langston Hughes, like you mentioned, W.E.B. Du Bois, I think you name drop, so to speak, and it's really interesting how some of those stories do get passed along. And then the story of Stephanie St. Claire, just it's such a fascinating story that just didn't get passed on the way all these other people's stories did. So it's really cool that you're able to bring this back to, back to light I guess.

Yhane Smith Yeah, thank you, Thank you.

Zach Glass So that's that's sort of the story of Madame St. Claire. What were some of your inspirations and influences when turning this into a podcast, specifically?

Yhane Smith So I wanted to bring the world, what was interesting to me was how Stephanie, in my imagination, Stephanie would have straddled two worlds. So she would have been in this world with the "Talented 10th", which is, the "Talented 10th" is this phrase I believe it was coined by W.E.B Du Bois of like a certain percentage of the African American population being educated enough and able enough to lead the rest of the community. That was just his thought. I'm not saying I agree with that. I'm just saying that was out there, that existed. So I wanted to bridge in my mind, Stephanie bridged, both worlds, this upper echelon of artists, because she was able to support the community and artists and women's leagues and whatnot, as well as the underworld of like speakeasies, and you know, illegal gambling and things like that. So, so yeah, I just wanted to bridge both of those worlds. I wanted to talk about people like Langston Hughes, but also, eventually, if the seasons go on, if I'm able to produce more seasons to talk a little more about like Augusta Savage and Dorothy West, and Angelina Grimke -- I'm never, I never knew how to pronounce her name-- and other like Claude McKay, other writers and artists of that time, that might be less known. And I just added like Zora Neale Hurston and Langston Hughes, because those are two people I assume a lot of people are familiar with. Yeah, as the seasons go on, I would like to, to to uncover some more people that I'm just learning about, and get more into the nitty gritty of like, the economics of this whole policy banking. You know, it was, it sounds pretty interesting to me.

Zach Glass Mm hmm, it's really interesting that whole time period, like you said, the interactions of the speakeasies and all of the sort of underground mobster stuff going on. It's a, it's a fascinating time period. So then May I ask as a follow up, you must have to do a lot of research and a lot of learning about these characters in order to write about them. How much research do you put into it and how much of your story is loosely based on –

Yhane Smith Yeah.

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Zach Glass -- the reality and how much is directly taken out of the history books?

Yhane Smith Right. So I never really considered myself much of a researcher. And still, until I started writing this. And I loved, I love, love, love finding books and doing this research. So one, I don't want to bore you with titles of books -- I can but-- so yeah, I've read, there was a biography of Stephanie St. Clair, that I read, another biography about-- by Steven Carter-- based on, about Eunice Carter, who was a black woman lawyer at this time. So, what else did I-- newspaper articles, looking at old issues of the Amsterdam News was invaluable. Because then I could see like, what would a menu at the W.E.B Du Bois' wedding look like? Or what would the menu at like one of these, these contests winner dinners look like? You know, looking up images of these places to see what the inside looks like, even though it's not, obviously audio drama isn't visual. I just like to have a visual with it. I'm looking up clothes, looking up prices, how much shoes cost.

Zach Glass I think it really comes through as well, especially the way you incorporate the the music going on as well. Like even though it is an audio medium, I feel when I'm listening that I could really see all that environment that you're describing. So it's really it carries through really nicely.

Yhane Smith Great. Thank you. I mean, I-- the music. I'm glad you reminded me. I, I- there's this great website that lists some, that I found that I could find old recordings of like Duke Ellington before he became Duke Ellington.

Zach Glass Oh, wow.

Yhane Smith You know, like when he was Duke Ellington, and just starting out and also another, so, another part of the question, your question was, what is fiction? So, a big part of this story that is fictional, fictionalized is the character Michelle. So Michelle did not exist. Stephanie St. Claire did have a child, but that child died in his infancy. So I created that whole character, that whole conflict, I'm a mother so it was quote unquote "easy" for me to make such a, in my mind, a powerful strong, you know, even though I don't like that word strong anymore, but powerful, smart, ambitious woman "weak" was the love of her child. You know, like a mother's love you can you will probably do just about anything for your child. So I actually that's not weak. That strength but you know, I digress. Yeah.

Zach Glass Right. No, it's, it's it's an important point, I think to remember, that, that is strength there. But it's it also, it really drives your plot. And I really appreciate that. That's good to know that that's the part that you

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created, and I think that's a good transition. I think you've brought in a couple of clips for our audience to listen to. So speaking of Michelle, why don't you introduce the the first clip that you have for us?

Yhane Smith So the first clip that I have is from season two, episode two, it's the first few minutes. It's when actually Holstein confronts Stephanie about this missing girl. Stephanie is putting out a lot of money and energy in finding this girl that what everyone thinks is a white girl, to find her to get her, bring her back. And no one quite understands why Stephanie, who was black, is so invested in the rich, safe return of this white girl. And so people are trying to sniff out what the connection is. And Holstein has decided to take advantage of the situation and negotiate you know, getting one of Stephanie's books. I don't know if I-- you know, policy book is basically like an account. So in that book will be all a lot of your clients, your numbers players. And so when you hold someone's book, you are responsible for when those numbers hit, and when they-- and the payouts for those hits. And so yeah, that that's a big chunk of her business, that he kind of negotiates out of her.

Zach Glass Mm hmm. And I guess it's not too much of a spoiler. The the audience at this point knows that Michelle is actually Stephanie's daughter, but she's been keeping it a secret from the rest of the world and they're trying to understand why, you know, why she cares so much, right?

Yhane Smith Exactly. Yes, it's in the first season. I just make it plain and clear that exactly what you said. Michelle is Stephanie's daughter, but Michelle doesn't know that she's Stephanie's daughter.

Zach Glass Mm hmm. Well, let's dive into the clip. We'll be right back.

[Clip from Season 2, Episode 2 of Harlem Queen. ]

Zach Glass Welcome back, thank you for providing that clip. Now that we've heard it, can you talk a little bit? What about that clip was made you want to show that bit off in particular? I imagine it links to what you're talking about the the strength of a mother?

Yhane Smith Yeah, it talks about the strength of the mother, it also talks about how, you know, Stephanie is so focused on getting Michelle back that she's not realizing the risk that she's putting other people in, like the jeopardy she's putting other people in. And an example of that are the black male drivers who are driving people, white people around all the time. And it made for a very dangerous, hostile situation. And so that is one of the things that convinces Stephanie to give Holstein her book. Also, I just like, you know, I just like that turn in there, where Stephanie gives herself away. Where she says, "Well, you know, what, how do I know that you don't have her" and he, Holstein says, "Well, why would I need to kidnap a girl?" And Stephanie says "Well, because you know how important she is to me" and Holstein

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is like "Really? I didn't know. Until" just, I just love like, she just gives herself away. So without even realizing it, so I I just thought that was good.

Zach Glass Yeah, that was a, that was a good line there. And it also has, unfortunately, a lot of resonance with a lot of what's been going on now in the world as well, with sort of how in Stephanie's case, what sort of a good intentioned idea to try and get her daughter back can have all these unintended consequences of enabling very bad behavior by the police force.

Yhane Smith Yeah, and yes, and of course, I wrote this years, like a couple years ago. Before 2020. And police brutality is nothing new. And lynching unfortunately is nothing new. And I seriously while writing it was like, Oh, boy. This story takes place 20 years ago. It's still-- and here we are. So yeah. Another thing that I picked up on about Stephanie St. Claire and reading the Amsterdam News articles is that she was very aware of police brutality. And in fact, not every week, but every once in a while she would put out these what I call advertisements where she was where she would just write letters to the community of Harlem and tell them of instances of police brutality of some of police officers bursting into people's apartments, people being falsely arrested, you know, falsely accused of crimes. She would say how she had to pay, like the hundreds and hundreds of dollars that she had to pay to police officers to look the other way. So that is something I tried to incorporate in the story. She does not trust the cops.

Zach Glass Right. And it's, as you said, police brutality is not a, not a new thing by any means. And sometimes it's useful to be reminded that that's not a new thing, despite what some some areas of the internet might want to lead you to believe, this has been going on and has been going on for a long time.

Yhane Smith Yes, very long.

Zach Glass It also is interesting to me, as well, as you are talking about how much Stephanie fed back into her community, both in terms of these, these notices that you're talking about, but also just the charitable donations to the writers and the poets in her neighborhood, and the scholarships and so forth. At the same time, she did make her money off of, you know, what at that time was, you know, during Prohibition, gambling and booze, basically.

Yhane Smith Yes, exactly.

Zach Glass It's a- it's a fascinating dichotomy, and I think adding in the, the relationship with her secret daughter just adds another layer to that, I think.

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Yhane Smith Yeah, thank you. Yes, it's, it's hard to-- it's not really hard for me to reconcile that even though what she was doing was, quote unquote "illegal". I mean, the numbers still exist today. They're just called state lottery.

Zach Glass Mm hmm, Yeah.

Yhane Smith We are, we can still drink alcohol today. So I don't really err-- I don't really see her, her work as being illegal.

Zach Glass Right.

Yhane Smith I -- And also, as I understand it, it was such a valuable source of employment for so many people in the community. And, you know, she was not the only policy banker in Harlem, there was Casper Holstein, as you know, as mentioned, Ipsen. I mentioned, like in one line, there were many and even though these people, yes, they made a lot of money, and they lived wealthy lives, I still feel or I get the impression that they were true "race people", like they, quote unquote, "race people", they still wanted to be a good representation of their race of, you know, African Americans. And they felt that it was their responsibility to still provide, you know, the support, the economic support for the for their community.

Zach Glass Right. Yeah. And I was, I did a little bit of very, very basic research compared to what I'm sure you did. But it also looks like part of the, part of the roles of these policy books was just sort of serve as, like pseudo banking, for people for whom the, you know, big banks wouldn't give the time of day. So that's, you know, that's also—

Yhane Smith Exactly.

Zach Glass --a really powerful benefit to their, their, their community. I didn't mean to say that just by dealing in booze and, and gambling that necessarily makes her bad, but it's just, it's an interesting—

Yhane Smith No, I didn't take it that way. And I do think it's interesting, and I'm glad you mentioned the the actual structure of the bank, because yes, in many cases, these policy banks were banks, like, quote unquote

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"legitimate", what you would consider a legitimate bank. They gave loans. They bought real estate, like Holstein apparently owned, you know, real estate in Harlem. They, they were able to provide the funding for African Americans to start businesses in Harlem. So and then not only that, but like playing the numbers itself. Like, if you win, that's a big deal.

Zach Glass Mm hmm. Yeah.

Yhane Smith And it's kind of money that is just staying within the community.

Zach Glass Right.

Yhane Smith Like, you know, I win today, you win next week. And we're all still giving our same 10, you know, 10 cents, or dimes or whatever, every week, and it's still staying in the community, so if I win this week, and you're my neighbor, and I win this week, and I can, you know, oh, "My Daddy Was a Numbers Runner", It was another another book that I was looking at, I read. So what was so interesting about that story is that one family would win one weekend, and they would have a party and they would have food, and then they would help another family with like, buying rice or, or meat or whatever. And then another family would win and they will reciprocate. So it was kind of like everyone supporting each other. So I just really think that's really fascinating.

Zach Glass Yeah, certainly, it's very fascinating. And so with that, I believe that the next clip you've brought for us is more towards the sort of the dramatic peak of the season a little bit. So why don't you introduce this next clip for us?

Yhane Smith Yes, so the next clip is from Episode Four of Season Two, Season Two Episode Four. And this is an exchange between Lucky Luciano and Ida. So Ida poses as Michelle's legal guardian because Stephanie does not want to pose as her legal guardian because she is -- she doesn't want anyone to know that she's related to Michelle. So basically Lucky Luciano gets a hint that Michelle could be Stephanie's daughter from a previous scene through Casper Holstein. So this is Lucky trying to get the truth out of Ida.

Zach Glass Let's dive right in.

[Clip from Season 2 Episode 4 of Harlem Queen]

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Zach Glass Excellent so why don't you talk about what you wanted to show off about this clip a little bit as well.

Yhane Smith What I wanted to show off about this clip was, I wanted to show the relationship with Ida and Reynolds and how everyone is connected, right so, Reynolds is Lucky Luciano's lawyer or bail bondsman or -- he's the guy who, you know, long story short is takes care of Lucky Luciano's businesses. So I wanted to establish that relationship, Reynolds and ita and then in order for Ida to have a reason to go visit with Lucky Luciano. Lucky Luciano at this point is above Dutch Schultz, so he's more more mean and more powerful than Dutch Schultz. So Lucky Luciano really wants to go in on this policy empire in Harlem, not just with Stephanie, but with all of them, right? So in this scene, he figures his way, His his, Stephanie's point of weakness, quote unquote "weakness" is this daughter. And so he's trying to get the confirmation out of Ida. Yeah, I like that scene because, um, well, first of all, let me just backtrack and just say how incredible my actors are.

Zach Glass They, they're, they're incredible. They do such a great job.

Yhane Smith I mean, I should have, I should have led with that. But, um, I just really like how Ida, who's portrayed by Jocelyn O'Toole, and Lucky Luciano, who's portrayed by Peter Killy, and Reynolds, who's portrayed by Ian Bell, all of the cast is listed on the website and on our show notes. So I just liked the back and forth between the two of them. It was a little-- I like the intensity. I liked their deliverance. I loved the the crack in Ida's voice, the worry the concern, and I loved how Ida was still willing to be Stephanie's friend in that moment, like she was still willing to keep that secret. And not, and not be another weak spot for for, that that Luciano could take advantage of.

Zach Glass And what I, what I found really interesting about it as well is, Luciano sort of fits more of the pop culture stereotype of a mobster,

Yhane Smith Yes, yeah.

Zach Glass You know, the whole, you know, threatening people, blackmailing people and, you know, no concern for anything except, you know, what their goal, what their objective is.

Yhane Smith Right.

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Zach Glass And I think that really serves as a, an interesting comparison against Stephanie herself where you see, both with her daughter and her community how she's, you know, she's just as as business driven when she needs to be but that's not the, that's not the full of her character, right?

Yhane Smith Mm hmm.

Zach Glass Like, she's she's a much more more complete character than some of those stereotypes of mobsters you often see in movies and stuff.

Yhane Smith Yes, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Luciano's only mission is just to, you know, control and rule things and own things. And I mean, I can't say I've done nearly as much research on Luciano as I did on Stephanie St. Claire.

Zach Glass Sure.

Yhane Smith So yeah, he I'm just he's just straight up villain in the story.

Zach Glass Every every story needs a villain though, right?

Yhane Smith Right. He's bad. He's mean, that's all you need to know.

Zach Glass Mm hmm. So season two of your show just recently wrapped up, you mentioned a little bit you have some plans in mind for what's what's coming next. So do you, can you share a little bit of what's what's coming up for Harlem Queen?

Yhane Smith Yeah, I think what needs to happen now is that there has to be, Stephanie has to get caught, right. So the our hero has to get, has to get caught. It has to happen. And so there will be a big-- I've done some, some limited research on, in the Amsterdam News -- I just cannot tell you how valuable these old clippings are -- of her, of her experiences in court. And it's just laughable it's like, it's just so, it's like really, did this really happen? Which I question because even if it's in the newspaper doesn't necessarily mean—

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Zach Glass Right.

Yhane Smith --Mean anything. So I'm really excited to add some of that into the mix of how she gets herself out of a jam. And I really expect, right now I'm thinking that Michelle will be the one to do her in. It just has to happen. She She fortunate she does -- Unfortunately she does not like her mother.

Zach Glass Yeah, well it will be it will be fascinating podcasting once it happens. And like we mentioned before, your show it's incredibly produced, the audio, the the music that sets you into the the mood of that time, your actors do an excellent job. It's really an incredible show. And I hope all of our listeners will go check it out. Where can, where can our listeners go find Harlan Queen and where can they support you and your work?

Yhane Smith So Harlem Queen is, you can listen to it on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, and you can also follow me on twitter at @AudioHarlem, and I'm also on Instagram at @HarlemQueenAudiodrama. I do have a Patreon page which is so wonderful, I have some wonderful supporters, that helps ease a lot of the expense of this at the, you know, that's basically-- they keep the website going. And that's at Patreon, I do have a Patreon page. And then of course, the biggest support is just listening to it and subscribing. And if, if people are so inclined, if they could put a comment at the end, you know, rate us on iTunes, as they say, that's, that's pretty valuable.

Zach Glass Excellent. I hope our listeners will go check you out because it's really, it's such a well, well made podcast. It's really, it's really great work.

Yhane Smith Thank you so much. I really appreciate it, and I have to shout out my my writers group who listened to so many drafts of this story for a couple of years, as well as of course, my very talented cast, my wonderful sound designer, Pete who does you know, anyway, I you know, I'm like, "You know, you know, it's 1928 Harlem, just make this traffic sounds like that". And, and he's able to do that.

Zach Glass It's incredible.

Yhane Smith So yeah, yeah, like I said, Everyone is listed in our show notes and on our website. And, you know, thank you so much for for for having me today. I just love blabbing about history and audio drama.

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Zach Glass Yeah, I mean, so do I. That's-- I'm so glad you were able to join us. And then the last question I wanted to ask you, we've been sort of trying to, you know, grow the whole audio drama field and, you know, help everyone learn about all the great audio dramas that are out there. So are there any other audio dramas in addition to your own that you love that you'd like to shout out real quick?

Yhane Smith Yeah, so yours, of course.

Zach Glass Oh, well, thank you.

Yhane Smith I I, actually, there's so much and I have to say I, I just started listening to it. And I, I think I started at the end, but I don't feel out of sync. Like I don't feel like "oh, what's going on?" I feel like each episode is well crafted enough to put me in the story.

Zach Glass Oh, thank you. That's great.

Yhane Smith So yeah, yeah, I am actually really enjoying it. So I'm about to go for a run now. And I will listen to more of it.

Zach Glass Awesome.

Yhane Smith But I'm always shouting out Axe and Crown because that was the first one I ever listened to. And I just thought, Oh, this is an incredible medium. I'm sorry, I have a little list here.

Zach Glass Oh, please.

Yhane Smith So like one, so Axe and Crown. Exoplanetary. And I think the reason why I like that also is because it's like to, in my mind, it's individual stories. I don't think it's written that way. But I feel like I can go in and be in that world, immersed in that world right away. Sage and Savant, which I also enjoy. Red House Rising. I listened to one day and I was walking in the park and I had to duck because you know, it's about, it's the sound effects were so effective.

Zach Glass Oh!

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Yhane Smith I was just ducking and weaving and just totally immersed in that story. Boom, I also listened to and I really enjoy and Deadbeats Inc. Another story, a story created by a woman of color, as well as Boom, and I really enjoy hearing their voices as well.

Zach Glass Mm hmm. Those sounds like some excellent recommendations. I have a lot of new listening to listen to because of that. So thank you. And thank you so much for joining us today. This has been a wonderful conversation. I've really appreciated you being here.

Yhane Smith Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. This was fun.

Zach Glass I hope we can do it again sometime.

Yhane Smith Absolutely. Season Three!

Zach Glass Season Three! do you do you know when it's coming out?

Yhane Smith No, I don't.

Zach Glass No, that's totally fair. With everything going on in the world, in the quarantine and everything, making episodes is tough. But I can't wait to hear Season Three whenever it's ready. I'm really really looking forward to it.

Yhane Smith Thank you so much. I really appreciate your support.

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