Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru The National Assembly for Wales

Cofnod y Trafodion The Record of Proceedings

Dydd Mercher, 10 Hydref 2012 Wednesday, 10 October 2012 10/10/2012

Cynnwys Contents

3 Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog Cyllid ac Arweinydd y Tŷ Questions to the Minister for Finance and Leader of the House

25 Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog Busnes, Menter, Technoleg a Gwyddoniaeth Questions to the Minister for Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science

48 Pwynt o Drefn Point of Order

48 Adroddiad y Pwyllgor Deisebau ar Lygredd ym Mornant Porth Tywyn The Petitions Committee’s Report on Pollution of the Burry Inlet

65 Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig: Yr Economi Welsh Conservatives Debate: The Economy

95 Dadl Plaid Cymru: Rheilffyrdd Plaid Cymru Debate: Railways

120 Cyfnod Pleidleisio Voting Time

139 Dadl Fer:Yr Achos dros Gadw’r Bwrdd Cyflogau Amaethyddol yng Nghymru Short Debate: The Case for Retaining the Agricultural Wages Board in Wales

Yn y golofn chwith, cofnodwyd y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y Siambr. Yn y golofn dde, cynhwyswyd cyfieithiad.

In the left-hand column, the proceedings are recorded in the language in which they were spoken in the Chamber. In the right-hand column, a translation has been included.

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Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 1.30 p.m.gyda’r Llywydd (Rosemary Butler) yn y Gadair. The Assembly met at 1.30 p.m.with the Presiding Officer (Rosemary Butler) in the Chair.

The Presiding Officer: Good afternoon. The Y Llywydd: Prynhawn da. Dyma ddechrau National Assembly for Wales is now in trafodion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru. session.

Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog Cyllid ac Arweinydd y Tŷ Questions to the Minister for Finance and Leader of the House

Polisi Caffael Procurement Policy

1. Gwyn R. Price: A wnaiff y Gweinidog 1. Gwyn R. Price: Will the Minister make a ddatganiad am bolisi caffael Llywodraeth statement on the Welsh Government’s Cymru. OAQ(4)0163(FIN) procurement policy. OAQ(4)0163(FIN)

The Minister for Finance and Leader of Y Gweinidog Cyllid ac Arweinydd y Tŷ the House (Jane Hutt): Our policy is to (Jane Hutt): Ein polisi yw gwneud y mwyaf maximise the value of the £4.3 billion-worth o werth y £4.3 biliwn o wariant caffael of annual procurement expenditure across blynyddol ledled Cymru. Rwyf wedi Wales. I have welcomed the croesawu argymhellion adolygiad recommendations of the McClelland review McClelland a byddaf yn cyhoeddi fy and I will publish my procurement policy natganiad polisi caffael yn yr hydref. statement this autumn.

Gwyn R. Price: The Home-grown Talent Gwyn R. Price: Mae’r rhaglen Defnyddio programme, which trains people for a career Doniau Cymru, sy’n hyfforddi pobl ar gyfer in procurement, is a fantastic initiative. What gyrfa ym myd caffael, yn fenter wych. Pa plans do you have to extend that programme? gynlluniau sydd gennych i ymestyn y rhaglen?

Jane Hutt: This is an important programme, Jane Hutt: Mae hon yn rhaglen bwysig, a which was highly recommended in the chafodd gymeradwyaeth hael yn adroddiad McClelland report. We have secured funding McClelland. Rydym wedi sicrhau arian gan from the European social fund to recruit and gronfa gymdeithasol Ewrop i recriwtio a train 22 young people over a three-year hyfforddi 22 o bobl ifanc dros gyfnod o dair period, but we are also supporting a further blynedd, ond rydym hefyd yn cefnogi 33 o 33 people to be professionally trained and bobl eraill i gael hyfforddiant proffesiynol ac have provided more than 265 places on wedi darparu mwy na 265 o leoedd ar gyrsiau training courses over the summer months. hyfforddiant dros fisoedd yr haf.

Paul Davies: A recommendation by the Paul Davies: Argymhelliad gan y Federation of Small Businesses following Ffederasiwn Busnesau Bach yn dilyn un o’i one of its surveys is to promote streamlined arolygon yw hyrwyddo holiaduron cyn- and standardised pre-qualification gymhwyso syml a safonol gydag ymdrech questionnaires with further effort made to bellach i sicrhau bod prosesau symlach ar ensure that simplified processes are in place waith ar gyfer caffael llai sydd o dan for smaller procurements below EU drothwyon yr UE. Byddai hynny’n cynyddu’r thresholds. That would increase the uptake of nifer sy’n manteisio ar y gronfa ddata the supplier qualification information gwybodaeth am gymwysterau cyflenwyr. A database. Could the Minister tell us what allai’r Gweinidog ddweud wrthym ba gamau steps the Welsh Government is currently y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wrthi’n eu taking to increase the uptake of the supplier cymryd i gynyddu’r nifer sy’n manteisio ar y qualification information database among gronfa ddata gwybodaeth am gymwysterau

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Wales’s 64 public sector buying cyflenwyr ymysg y 64 sefydliad sy’n prynu organisations? yn y sector cyhoeddus yng Nghymru?

Jane Hutt: I thank the Welsh Conservatives’ Jane Hutt: Diolch i lefarydd cyllid y finance spokesperson for that question. The Ceidwadwyr Cymreig am y cwestiwn actions called for by the FSB form part of our hwnnw. Mae’r camau gweithredu y gelwir Welsh Government work. That includes work amdanynt gan y Ffederasiwn Busnesau Bach on SQuID and fair payment in construction yn rhan o waith Llywodraeth Cymru. Mae contracts, and the measurement of outcomes hynny’n cynnwys gwaith ar SQuID a thâl teg are being addressed. Furthermore, it is mewn contractau adeiladu, ac rydym yn important to note that the FSB is part of our mynd i’r afael â mesur canlyniadau. Ar ben economic impact group, which is now hynny, mae’n bwysig nodi bod y Ffederasiwn looking at the national procurement service Busnesau Bach yn rhan o’n grŵp effaith project. economaidd, sydd wrthi’n edrych ar y prosiect gwasanaeth caffael cenedlaethol.

Paul Davies: I am grateful to the Minister for Paul Davies: Diolch i’r Gweinidog am ei that answer. As a member of the cross-party hateb. Fel aelod o’r grŵp trawsbleidiol ar group on construction, I have heard how adeiladu, rwyf wedi clywed sut y gall bidding for public procurement contracts can gwneud cais am gontractau caffael be burdensome and costly for many small cyhoeddus fod yn feichus a chostus i lawer o businesses and that larger companies have fusnesau bach a bod gan gwmnïau mwy o greater resources to bid for contracts, faint fwy o adnoddau i gynnig am gontractau, resources that small and medium-sized adnoddau nad oes gan fentrau bach a enterprises lack. Could you tell us whether chanolig eu maint. A allwch ddweud wrthym the Welsh Government is looking at a a yw Llywodraeth Cymru yn ystyried mandatory adoption of a supplier gwneud y gronfa ddata gwybodaeth am qualification information database or a gymwysterau cyflenwyr neu system debyg yn similar system across the Welsh public orfodol ar draws y sector cyhoeddus yng sector, which would remove this Nghymru, a fyddai’n dileu’r anghysondeb inconsistency, as called for by hwn, fel y gofynnodd Sgiliau Adeiladu ConstructionSkills Wales? Cymru amdano?

Jane Hutt: As you know, we welcomed all Jane Hutt: Fel y gwyddoch, croesawom holl of the findings of the McClelland review and, ganfyddiadau adolygiad McClelland, ac, o in terms of embracing key commitments, the ran croesawu’r prif ymrwymiadau, mae programme for Government’s commitment to ymrwymiad y rhaglen lywodraethu i fuddion community benefits and the use of SQuID cymunedol a’r defnydd o SQuID yn ffurfio forms a part of our consideration of the rhan o’r broses o ystyried y datganiad polisi procurement policy statement that I will caffael y byddaf yn ei wneud ymhen ychydig make in a few weeks’ time. wythnosau.

It is important to recognise that we have Mae’n bwysig cydnabod ein bod wedi worked closely with the construction sector gweithio’n agos gyda’r sector adeiladu ac and have held a number of events, most wedi cynnal nifer o ddigwyddiadau, yn fwyaf recently in north Wales, where we had a diweddar yng ngogledd Cymru, lle y cawsom positive response from SMEs attending and ymateb cadarnhaol gan fusnesau bach a engaging in our policy procurement chanolig yn mynychu ac yn cymryd rhan yn discussions. ein trafodaethau polisi caffael.

Leanne Wood: It is positive to see Leanne Wood: Mae’n gadarnhaol gweld procurement policy being given such a polisi caffael yn cael gymaint o flaenoriaeth priority by all parties in the Chamber. Using gan bob plaid yn y Siambr. Mae defnyddio our purchasing power to boost the economy ein pŵer prynu i roi hwb i’r economi wedi has been part of Plaid Cymru’s agenda for bod ar agenda Plaid Cymru ers degawdau.

4 10/10/2012 many decades.

One of the McClelland recommendations is Un o argymhellion McClelland yw adolygu to review the mission and structure of Value cenhadaeth a strwythur Gwerth Cymru er Wales in order to align that with the need for mwyn alinio hynny gyda’r angen am policy implementation. In your answer to a weithredu polisi. Yn eich ateb i’r cwestiwn previous question, you said that you welcome blaenorol, dywedoch eich bod yn croesawu all the recommendations of the McClelland holl argymhellion adolygiad McClelland. review. Can you tell us whether you will be Allwch ddweud wrthym a fyddwch yn delivering on that specific recommendation? gweithredu’r argymhelliad penodol hwnnw?

Jane Hutt: I have indicated that I will shortly Jane Hutt: Rwyf wedi nodi y byddaf yn publish a procurement policy statement that cyhoeddi datganiad polisi caffael yn fuan a will reflect the McClelland policy review. fydd yn adlewyrchu adolygiad polisi However, as you will see from his review, McClelland. Fodd bynnag, fel y gwelwch o’i John McClelland focuses and comments on adolygiad, mae John McClelland yn the outstanding work of Value Wales, as well canolbwyntio, ac yn rhoi sylwadau ar, waith as the work that the Welsh Government has rhagorol Gwerth Cymru, yn ogystal â gwaith taken forward over the past six years to Llywodraeth Cymru sydd wedi mynd improve procurement outcomes across the rhagddo dros y chwe blynedd diwethaf i public sector in Wales. wella canlyniadau caffael ar draws y sector cyhoeddus yng Nghymru.

Hybu Cydraddoldeb Promoting Equalities

2. Mohammad Asghar: A wnaiff y 2. Mohammad Asghar: Will the Minister Gweinidog amlinellu ei blaenoriaethau ar outline her priorities for promoting equalities gyfer hybu cydraddoldeb yng Nghymru dros y in Wales over the next six months. chwe mis nesaf. OAQ(4)0158(FIN) OAQ(4)0158(FIN)

5. Rebecca Evans: A wnaiff y Gweinidog 5. Rebecca Evans: Will the Minister outline amlinellu ei blaenoriaethau ar gyfer her priorities for equalities over the next six cydraddoldeb dros y chwe mis nesaf. months. OAQ(4)0157(FIN) OAQ(4)0157(FIN)

Jane Hutt: Our equality priorities are set out Jane Hutt: Mae ein blaenoriaethau in chapter 8 of the programme for cydraddoldeb wedi’u nodi ym mhennod 8 o’r government. In April this year, I launched the rhaglen lywodraethu. Ym mis Ebrill eleni, strategic equality plan, which will help us to lansiais y cynllun cydraddoldeb strategol, a deliver a positive difference to the people of fydd yn ein helpu i sicrhau gwahaniaeth Wales. cadarnhaol i bobl Cymru.

Mohammad Asghar: Age Cymru has Mohammad Asghar: Mae Age Cymru wedi highlighted the vital role that independent tynnu sylw at y rôl hanfodol y mae advocacy services play in supporting people gwasanaethau eirioli annibynnol yn ei who have been, or are being, abused. Older chwarae o ran cefnogi pobl sydd wedi cael, people in Wales need the support that neu yn cael, eu cam-drin. Mae pobl hŷn yng independent advocates provide, to ensure that Nghymru angen y cymorth y mae eiriolwyr their voices are heard in the social care annibynnol yn ei ddarparu, er mwyn sicrhau system. According to Age Cymru research, bod eu lleisiau’n cael eu clywed yn y system there is only one paid advocate per 17,000 gofal cymdeithasol. Yn ôl ymchwil Age older people in Wales. Will the Minister give Cymru, dim ond un eiriolwr cyflogedig sydd a firm commitment to supporting and i bob 17,000 o bobl hŷn yng Nghymru. A developing advocacy services for older wnaiff y Gweinidog roi ymrwymiad cadarn i people in Wales? gefnogi a datblygu gwasanaethau eirioli ar

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gyfer pobl hŷn yng Nghymru?

Jane Hutt: I thank Mohammad Asghar for Jane Hutt: Diolch i Mohammad Asghar am that question. We work closely with Age y cwestiwn hwnnw. Rydym yn gweithio’n Cymru, and it is feeding into not only the agos gydag Age Cymru, ac mae hynny’n social services Bill, which addresses issues of cyfrannu at y Bil gwasanaethau advocacy, but our strategic equality plan. cymdeithasol, sy’n mynd i’r afael ag eiriolaeth, yn ogystal â’n cynllun cydraddoldeb strategol.

Rebecca Evans: Yesterday, the First Rebecca Evans: Ddoe, dywedodd y Prif Minister said that this Government’s greatest Weinidog mai camp fwyaf y Llywodraeth achievement to date was Jobs Growth Wales. hyd yma oedd Twf Swyddi Cymru. Sut How are you ensuring that disabled young ydych yn sicrhau bod pobl ifanc anabl yn people benefit from this flagship scheme? elwa ar y cynllun blaenllaw hwn?

Jane Hutt: This is an important opportunity Jane Hutt: Mae hwn yn gyfle pwysig i roi’r to update Members on this scheme. I thank wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i Aelodau am y Rebecca Evans for her question on the work cynllun. Diolch i Rebecca Evans am ei that we are doing through Jobs Growth chwestiwn ar ein gwaith gyda Thwf Swyddi Wales. Indeed, 500 of the 4,000 opportunities Cymru. Yn wir, mae 500 o’r 4,000 o that are being created each year are targeted gyfleoedd sy’n cael eu creu bob blwyddyn at people who need additional support to help wedi’u targedu at bobl sydd angen cymorth them into employment. That includes ychwanegol i’w helpu i gael gwaith. Mae appropriate help for disabled people, among hynny’n cynnwys cymorth priodol ar gyfer others. pobl anabl, ymhlith eraill.

Lindsay Whittle: The Party of Wales Lindsay Whittle: Mae Plaid Cymru’n credu believes that every family, from all walks of y dylai pob teulu, o bob cefndir, allu profi’r life, should be able to experience the full ystod lawn o weithgareddau diwylliannol range of cultural activities that Wales has to sydd gan Gymru i’w gynnig, ac mae gennym offer, and boy do we have a lot to offer. Can lawer iawn i’w gynnig. A allwch chi sicrhau you please ensure that every Government- bod gan bob sefydliad celfyddydau sy’n revenue-funded arts organisation in Wales derbyn cyllid refeniw gan y Llywodraeth yng has a scheme to ensure access to cultural Nghymru gynllun i sicrhau mynediad at activities for all low-income families in weithgareddau diwylliannol i’r holl Wales? deuluoedd incwm isel yng Nghymru?

Jane Hutt: That is a matter for the Minister Jane Hutt: Mae hynny’n fater i’r Gweinidog for Housing, Regeneration and Heritage. Tai, Adfywio a Threftadaeth. Fodd bynnag, However, like all Ministers, he has engaged fel pob Gweinidog, mae wedi gwneud in an equality impact assessment of his asesiad effaith cydraddoldeb o’i gyllideb, budget, which addresses those important sy’n delio â’r materion pwysig o ran issues in terms of cultural access across mynediad diwylliannol ledled Cymru, yn Wales, particularly for our more enwedig ar gyfer ein cymunedau ac disadvantaged communities and areas. ardaloedd mwy difreintiedig.

Aled Roberts: I am sure that you will Aled Roberts: Rwy’n siŵr y byddwch yn acknowledge, Minister, that many reports cydnabod, Weinidog, bod llawer o have outlined that deaf children are adversely adroddiadau wedi nodi bod acwsteg wael affected as far as attainment is concerned by mewn ysgolion yn cael effaith andwyol ar poor acoustics in schools. I acknowledge that gyrhaeddiad plant byddar. Rwy’n cydnabod the Government has made it a condition of bod y Llywodraeth wedi gwneud profion the twenty-first century schools programme acwsteg yn amod ar gyfer y rhaglen ysgolion that pre-completion acoustic testing is unfed ganrif ar hugain. Fodd bynnag, mae

6 10/10/2012 outlined. However, I have evidence that gennyf dystiolaeth sy’n awgrymu bod suggests that councils are still not cynghorau yn dal i beidio â chynnal y profion undertaking those tests in many instances. hynny mewn llawer o achosion. A allwch Are you able to make it a condition of the greu amod ar gyfer rhyddhau’r grant terfynol final release of the grant that pre-completion bod swyddogion yn gweld y profion cyn testing is seen by officials? cwblhau?

Jane Hutt: This is an important issue. I share Jane Hutt: Mae hwn yn fater pwysig. the Minister for Education and Skills’ Cytunaf â phenderfyniad y Gweinidog determination to ensure that those pre- Addysg a Sgiliau i sicrhau bod y cyn-amodau conditions, in terms of improving and having hynny, o ran gwella a chael yr acwsteg o the best-quality acoustics in schools, are ansawdd orau mewn ysgolion, yn cael sylw. addressed. I will discuss with him the Byddaf yn trafod gydag ef y cyfleoedd i opportunities to enforce that. orfodi hynny.

Janet Finch-Saunders: Chwarae Teg has Janet Finch-Saunders: Mae Chwarae Teg expressed concerns at the severe lack of wedi mynegi pryderon am y diffyg difrifol o gender-disaggregated data that is available in ddata sydd wedi’u dadgyfuno ar sail rhyw key policy areas, such as business, skills and sydd ar gael mewn meysydd polisi allweddol, transport. This in turn inhibits analysis of the fel busnes, sgiliau a thrafnidiaeth. Mae hyn, impact of Welsh Government decisions on yn ei dro, yn llesteirio dadansoddi effaith women, and blocks the ability of the penderfyniadau Llywodraeth Cymru ar Government to ensure proper gender fenywod, ac yn rhwystro’r Llywodraeth rhag mainstreaming in all policy areas. How are sicrhau bod rhywedd yn cael ei brif ffrydio’n you working to address this data deficit, and briodol ym mhob maes polisi. Sut ydych yn what will you do to improve gender- gweithio i fynd i’r afael â’r diffyg data hwn, a disaggregated data collection in these areas? beth fyddwch yn ei wneud i wella casglu data sydd wedi’u dadgyfuno ar sail rhyw yn y meysydd hyn?

Jane Hutt: I am aware that Janet Finch- Jane Hutt: Rwy’n ymwybodol bod Janet Saunders is a member of the Communities, Finch-Saunders yn aelod o’r Pwyllgor Equality and Local Government Committee, Cymunedau, Cydraddoldeb a Llywodraeth where I was scrutinised this morning about Leol, a fu’n craffu ar fy ngwaith y bore yma the equality impact assessment. I clearly am yr asesiad o’r effaith ar gydraddoldeb. showed at that meeting the data sources for Dangosais yn glir yn y cyfarfod hwnnw'r the evidence that we have in terms of gender ffynonellau data sydd gennym fel tystiolaeth statistics, which inform our budget making, o ran ystadegau rhyw, sy’n ein llywio wrth and I am grateful to Chwarae Teg for raising lunio’r gyllideb, ac rwy’n ddiolchgar i this issue, as it is key to ensuring that we Chwarae Teg am godi’r mater hwn, gan ei address equality and gender issues, fod yn allweddol i sicrhau ein bod yn mynd particularly in terms of our budgetary i’r afael â materion sy’n ymwneud â arrangements. chydraddoldeb a rhyw, yn enwedig o ran ein trefniadau cyllidebol.

Christine Chapman: Minister, many women Christine Chapman: Weinidog, mae llawer in Wales are still unaware of the o fenywod yng Nghymru yn dal i beidio â opportunities to serve on public bodies and bod yn ymwybodol o’r cyfleoedd i current figures show that women make up wasanaethu ar gyrff cyhoeddus ac mae just 36% of public appointments. ffigurau cyfredol yn dangos bod menywod Unfortunately, there continues to be the ond yn cyfrif am 36% o benodiadau perception that boards and trusts are closed cyhoeddus. Yn anffodus, mae’r canfyddiad shops or politically biased, and I very much bod byrddau ac ymddiriedolaethau yn welcome the Presiding Officer’s series of sefydliadau caeedig neu â thuedd wleidyddol events on women in public life, which I know yn parhau, ac rwy’n croesawu’n fawr iawn

7 10/10/2012 are discussing ways in which some of these gyfres y Llywydd o ddigwyddiadau ar barriers can be broken down. What fenywod mewn bywyd cyhoeddus. Gwn eu assurances can you give that the Welsh bod yn trafod sut y gellir dileu rhai o’r Government will continue to back efforts to rhwystrau hyn. Pa sicrwydd y gallwch chi ei increase female participation in public roi y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn parhau i bodies? gefnogi ymdrechion i gynyddu cyfranogiad merched mewn cyrff cyhoeddus?

Jane Hutt: This is a key commitment in the Jane Hutt: Mae hwn yn ymrwymiad programme for government, as the Member allweddol yn y rhaglen lywodraethu, fel y for Cynon Valley is aware, in terms of our gŵyr yr Aelod dros Gwm Cynon, o ran ein equality objectives, and I have recently hamcanion cydraddoldeb, ac rwyf wedi written to all Ministers to draw their attention ysgrifennu yn ddiweddar at yr holl to work that is taking place across the Welsh Weinidogion i dynnu eu sylw at waith sy’n Government to identify and increase the digwydd ar draws Llywodraeth Cymru i nodi number of women’s appointments to public a chynyddu nifer y menywod sy’n cael eu bodies in Wales. I also look forward to taking penodi i gyrff cyhoeddus yng Nghymru. part in a conference that the Presiding Officer Rwyf hefyd yn edrych ymlaen at gymryd is organising on this issue in November. We rhan mewn cynhadledd sy’n cael ei threfnu are looking particularly at the positive work gan y Llywydd ym mis Tachwedd. Rydym undertaken by Sport Wales in terms of its yn edrych yn benodol ar waith cadarnhaol recent appointments process, which has Chwaraeon Cymru o ran ei broses dramatically increased the number of women penodiadau diweddar, sydd wedi cynyddu’n appointed to its board. sylweddol y nifer o ferched sydd wedi’u penodi ar ei fwrdd.

Bethan Jenkins: Minister, you will Bethan Jenkins: Weinidog, byddwch yn remember when I questioned you on 21 cofio i mi eich holi ar 21 Mawrth eleni sut March this year on how the performance of mae perfformiad yr uned cydraddoldeb, the equality, diversity and inclusion unit is amrywiaeth a chynhwysiant yn cael ei asesu, assessed, that you stressed that there was no ac fe wnaethoch bwysleisio nad oedd unrhyw practical link between that unit and the gyswllt ymarferol rhwng yr uned a’r uned former equality policy unit. If that is the case, polisi cydraddoldeb blaenorol. Os yw and if there is no link, as you told this hynny’n wir, ac os nad oes cysylltiad, fel y Chamber, can you explain why your dywedoch yn y Siambr, a allwch egluro pam Government is refusing to release documents mae eich Llywodraeth yn gwrthod rhyddhau on this unit to my office on the grounds that dogfennau ar yr uned hon i fy swyddfa ar y it would impact on the auditor general’s sail y byddai’n effeithio ar adroddiad yr report into the Welsh Government’s handling archwilydd cyffredinol i sut y gwnaeth of the All Wales Ethnic Minority Llywodraeth Cymru ddelio â Chymdeithas Association? Is this new unit also under Lleiafrifoedd Ethnig Cymru Gyfan? A yw’r investigation? uned newydd hefyd yn cael ei hymchwilio?

Jane Hutt: It would not be appropriate to Jane Hutt: Ni fyddai’n briodol i mi ymateb respond to that question. The Permanent i’r cwestiwn hwnnw. Efallai bydd yr Secretary may wish to deal with it. Certainly, Ysgrifennydd Parhaol yn dymuno delio ag ef. in terms of the current role and delivery of Yn sicr, o ran rôl a darpariaeth bresennol yr the equality, diversity and inclusion unit, for uned cydraddoldeb, amrywiaeth a which I am responsible, I believe that it is chynhwysiant, yr wyf yn gyfrifol amdani, delivering to the expectations that I have as credaf ei bod yn darparu yn unol â’r the Minister with responsibility for equalities. disgwyliadau sydd gennyf fel y Gweinidog â chyfrifoldeb dros gydraddoldeb.

Kenneth Skates: Minister, a recent piece of Kenneth Skates: Weinidog, mae ymchwil research by Ernst and Young found that two diweddar gan Ernst a Young wedi darganfod

8 10/10/2012 thirds of working age women believe that fod dwy ran o dair o ferched oedran gweithio they face multiple barriers in the workplace. o’r farn eu bod yn wynebu rhwystrau lluosog The research identified four key barriers to yn y gweithle. Daeth yr ymchwil o hyd i career progression, including a lack of role bedwar prif rwystr i ddilyniant gyrfa, gan models and experience. What efforts are you gynnwys diffyg esiampl a phrofiad. Pa making to ensure that the Welsh Government ymdrechion ydych chi’n eu gwneud i sicrhau policy tackles all the barriers holding back bod polisi Llywodraeth Cymru yn mynd i’r women in the workplace, and what steps are afael â’r holl rwystrau sy’n dal menywod yn you taking to ensure that women are ôl yn y gweithle, a pha gamau ydych yn eu supported at every stage of their career? cymryd i sicrhau bod merched yn cael eu cefnogi ar bob cam o’u gyrfa?

Jane Hutt: I responded in part to this Jane Hutt: Ymatebais yn rhannol i’r question earlier with regard to the important cwestiwn hwn yn gynharach o ran y rôl role we can play in promoting women to bwysig y gallwn ei chwarae wrth hyrwyddo public appointments. With regard to women merched i benodiadau cyhoeddus. O ran into employment, I pay tribute to the work of menywod mewn cyflogaeth, talaf deyrnged i Chwarae Teg in this respect in promoting and waith Chwarae Teg yn hyn o beth o ran advancing the role of women in the hyrwyddo a chynyddu rôl menywod yn y workforce. Clearly, it is part of our strategic gweithlu. Yn amlwg, mae’n rhan o’n cynllun equality plan to address some of the barriers, cydraddoldeb strategol i fynd i’r afael â rhai for example relating to childcare, and the o’r rhwystrau, er enghraifft, yn ymwneud â doubling of Flying Start places in gofal plant, ac mae dyblu nifer y llefydd yn disadvantaged areas is a key part of that Dechrau’n Deg mewn ardaloedd difreintiedig progress. yn rhan allweddol o’r cynnydd hwnnw.

Pwerau Bethyca Borrowing Powers

3. Mick Antoniw: A wnaiff y Gweinidog 3. Mick Antoniw: Will the Minister make a ddatganiad am drafodaethau Llywodraeth statement on the Welsh Government’s Cymru gyda Llywodraeth y DU ynghylch discussions with the UK Government pwerau benthyca. OAQ(4)0162(FIN) regarding borrowing powers. OAQ(4)0162(FIN)

Jane Hutt: We believe that the Welsh Jane Hutt: Credwn y dylai Llywodraeth Government should be able to borrow to fund Cymru allu benthyca i ariannu capital investment. We have been making the buddsoddiadau cyfalaf. Rydym wedi bod yn case in our talks with the UK Government to gwneud yr achos yn ein trafodaethau gyda enable these powers to be used effectively for Llywodraeth y DU i alluogi defnyddio’r the benefit of the economy. pwerau hyn yn effeithiol er budd yr economi.

Mick Antoniw: I have put on record my Mick Antoniw: Rwyf wedi dweud ar goedd welcoming—as have others—of the hard fy mod yn croesawu—fel y gwnaeth eraill—y work that has been done in this area in view gwaith caled sydd wedi cael ei wneud yn y of its importance. What is a matter of concern maes hwn, o ystyried ei bwysigrwydd. Y among backbenchers is that if we are given pryder ymysg aelodau’r meinciau cefn yw, os those borrowing powers, there must be a cawn y pwerau benthyca, y bydd rhaid cael programme of implementation for the benefit rhaglen weithredu er budd Cymru, ac i greu of Wales, the creation of jobs and swyddi a chyflogaeth. A fyddech yn gallu employment. Would you be able to make a gwneud datganiad am hynny? statement on that?

Jane Hutt: I thank the Member for Jane Hutt: Diolch i’r Aelod dros Bontypridd Pontypridd for that question. It is crucial that am y cwestiwn hwnnw. Mae’n hanfodol ein not only do we gain those borrowing powers, bod yn cael y pwerau benthyca hynny, ond

9 10/10/2012 but that we are ready in terms of our hefyd ein bod yn barod o ran ein bwriadau, intentions, particularly with the Wales yn enwedig gyda chynllun buddsoddi infrastructure investment plan, to progress seilwaith Cymru, i’w symud ymlaen fel them in terms of economic projects because prosiectau economaidd, oherwydd bydd that will create jobs. My announcement last hynny’n creu swyddi. Yr wythnos diwethaf, week of an additional £175 million will cyhoeddais £175 miliwn ychwanegol a fydd create 3,000 jobs, but we can progress that yn creu 3,000 o swyddi, ond gallwn symud with plans for new roads, public transport, hynny ymlaen gyda chynlluniau ar gyfer flood defences and information technology, ffyrdd newydd, trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus, as we progress with borrowing powers. amddiffyn rhag llifogydd a thechnoleg gwybodaeth, wrth inni fwrw ymlaen â phwerau benthyca.

1.45 p.m.

The Leader of the Opposition (Andrew Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid (Andrew R.T. R.T. Davies): If borrowing powers were to Davies): Os cawn bwerau benthyca, byddai come, there would be responsibility for cyfrifoldeb am ad-dalu neu wasanaethu’r repaying or servicing that borrowing; it is not benthyciadau; nid ymrwymiad penagored an open-ended commitment. How confident mohono. Pa mor hyderus ydych chi, fel y are you, as Minister for Finance, that the Gweinidog Cyllid, y bydd Llywodraeth Welsh Government will have the ability to Cymru yn gallu defnyddio un ochr o’r use one side of the coin, namely to invest to geiniog, sef buddsoddi i ddatblygu’r develop the economy, as well as the other, to economi, yn ogystal â’r llall, sef gwasanaethu service and pay off some of that borrowing, a thalu yn ôl rhywfaint o’r benthyciad, wrth going forward, with the financial settlements fynd ymlaen, o gofio’r setliadau ariannol yr with which you have had to juggle over the ydych wedi gorfod gweithio â hwy dros y years? blynyddoedd?

Jane Hutt: That is a very important question Jane Hutt: Mae hwnnw’n gwestiwn pwysig from the leader of the opposition. We iawn gan arweinydd yr wrthblaid. Rydym yn recognise that the UK Government has a cydnabod bod gan Lywodraeth y DU legitimate interest in being able to manage fuddiant dilys o ran rheoli sefyllfa ariannol y the fiscal position of the UK as a whole. This DU yn ei chyfanrwydd. Mae hyn yn is about how we progress with discussions to ymwneud â sut gallwn fwrw ymlaen gyda’r ensure that we can borrow, in agreement with trafodaethau i sicrhau ein bod yn gallu the UK Government. It will include issues benthyca, mewn cytundeb â Llywodraeth y around borrowing limits. The UK DU. Bydd yn cynnwys materion yn Government has set the Scottish Government ymwneud â therfynau benthyca. Mae an annual borrowing limit and we need to Llywodraeth y DU wedi gosod terfyn progress, as we are doing, with the UK benthyca blynyddol i Lywodraeth yr Alban, Government, these issues carefully. ac mae angen inni symud ymlaen, fel yr ydym yn ei wneud, gyda Llywodraeth y DU, gyda’r materion hyn yn ofalus.

Alun Ffred Jones: Mae Plaid Cymru wedi Alun Ffred Jones: Plaid Cymru has pleaded pledio’r achos dros gael pwerau benthyg ers the case for borrowing powers for years, blynyddoedd, pan nad oedd llawer o when there was not much enthusiasm on frwdfrydedd ar y meinciau cyfagos. Os daw’r nearby benches. If agreement is reached, cytundeb, a fyddech yn cytuno bod yn rhaid would you agree that those borrowing powers i’r pwerau benthyg hynny fod ar lefel sy’n would have to be set at a level that would mynd i wneud gwahaniaeth, a bod angen make a difference, and that there should be hyblygrwydd o fewn y rheolau hynny i flexibility within the rules so as to enable the alluogi’r Llywodraeth i fenthyca o lle bynnag Government to borrow from wherever it is y mae’n fwyaf manteisiol i wneud hynny? most beneficial to do so?

10 10/10/2012

Jane Hutt: Indeed. Alun Ffred Jones knows Jane Hutt: Yn wir. Gŵyr Alun Ffred Jones that this is inevitably—and rightly—a matter ei bod yn anochel ond yn gywir mai mater for discussion with the UK Government. I i’w drafod gyda Llywodraeth y DU yw hwn. have mentioned the case for ensuring that we Rwyf wedi sôn am yr achos dros sicrhau bod have flexibility in terms of our annual gennym hyblygrwydd o ran ein terfyn borrowing limit, for example. The Holtham benthyca blynyddol, er enghraifft. commission suggested an overall borrowing Awgrymodd comisiwn Holtham derfyn limit of around £2 billion, for example, in the benthyca cyffredinol o tua £2 biliwn, er second part of Gerry Holtham’s review. Any enghraifft, yn ail ran o adolygiad Gerry limits or possible conditions on borrowing Holtham. Byddai unrhyw gyfyngiadau neu would be something that we would discuss amodau posibl ar fenthyca yn rhywbeth y with the UK Government, in terms of a byddem yn eu trafod gyda Llywodraeth y constructive agreement. However, we need to DU, o ran creu cytundeb adeiladol. Fodd look at the most appropriate sources of bynnag, mae angen i ni edrych ar y borrowing and we have had good, valuable ffynonellau mwyaf priodol o fenthyca ac advice from the Holtham commission on rydym wedi cael cyngor da a gwerthfawr gan taking our discussions forward. gomisiwn Holtham ar ddatblygu ein trafodaethau.

Blaenoriaethau Priorities

4. Paul Davies: A wnaiff y Gweinidog 4. Paul Davies: Will the Minister make a ddatganiad am ei blaenoriaethau ar gyfer y statement on her priorities for the next twelve deuddeg mis nesaf. OAQ(4)0160(FIN) months. OAQ(4)0160(FIN)

Jane Hutt: I reaffirmed the Government’s Jane Hutt: Fe wnes ail-gadarnhau priorities in the budget plans that I published blaenoriaethau’r Llywodraeth yn y cynlluniau last week. We are committed to supporting cyllideb a gyhoeddais yr wythnos ddiwethaf. growth and jobs in Wales, safeguarding and Rydym wedi ymrwymo i gefnogi twf a improving front-line services. swyddi yng Nghymru, a diogelu a gwella gwasanaethau rheng flaen.

Paul Davies: I am sure that one of the Paul Davies: Rwy’n siŵr mai un o Minister for Finance’s priorities is to ensure flaenoriaethu’r Gweinidog Cyllid yw sicrhau that sufficient funds are invested in the bod digon o arian yn cael ei fuddsoddi i delivery of broadband, which will improve ddarparu band eang, a fydd yn gwella the Welsh economy. Could the Minister economi Cymru. A all y Gweinidog confirm that the recent draft budget will gadarnhau y bydd y gyllideb ddrafft commit to this and that funds will be ddiweddar yn ymrwymo i hyn ac y bydd prioritised towards the delivery of broadband arian yn cael ei flaenoriaethu ar gyfer darparu in notspots rather than just to the delivery of band eang mewn mannau gwan yn hytrach na superfast broadband? chyflwyno band eang cyflym iawn yn unig?

Jane Hutt: Importantly, as I said last week in Jane Hutt: Mae’n bwysig nodi, fel y my draft budget statement, we are investing a dywedais yr wythnos ddiwethaf yn natganiad further £10 million in next generation y gyllideb ddrafft, ein bod yn buddsoddi £10 broadband for Wales. That is part of a £425 miliwn mewn band eang y genhedlaeth nesaf million programme. We are aiming for 96% i Gymru. Mae hynny’n rhan o raglen £425 homes and businesses to have access to fibre- miliwn. Rydym yn anelu at sicrhau bod gan based broadband by 2015; clearly addressing 96% o gartrefi a busnesau fynediad at fand the concerns raised. eang ffibr erbyn 2015; gan fynd i’r afael â’r pryderon a godwyd.

Jocelyn Davies: Your infrastructure Jocelyn Davies: Mae eich cynllun buddsoddi

11 10/10/2012 investment plan identifies seven high-level seilwaith yn nodi saith blaenoriaeth investment priorities, including the buddsoddi lefel uchel, gan gynnwys datblygu development of Cardiff Airport. What has the Maes Awyr Caerdydd. Beth mae Welsh Government done to demonstrate that Llywodraeth Cymru wedi ei wneud i ddangos the airport is one of its top priorities? bod y maes awyr yn un o’i brif flaenoriaethau?

Jane Hutt: The First Minister is chairing a Jane Hutt: Mae’r Prif Weinidog yn cadeirio Cardiff Airport taskforce, which tasglu Maes Awyr Caerdydd, sy’n dangos ein demonstrates the priority that we give to the bod yn blaenoriaethu datblygiad y maes development of the airport. awyr.

Tâl Rhanbarthol Regional Pay

6. Gwyn R. Price: A wnaiff y Gweinidog 6. Gwyn R. Price: Will the Minister make a ddatganiad am ganlyniadau posibl cyflwyno statement on the possible consequences of the tâl rhanbarthol yng Nghymru. introduction of regional pay in Wales. OAQ(4)0164(FIN) OAQ(4)0164(FIN)

Jane Hutt: The introduction of regional or Jane Hutt: Byddai cyflwyno tâl rhanbarthol ‘local market-facing’ pay in the public sector neu dâl marchnad leol yn y sector cyhoeddus in Wales would be damaging both to the yng Nghymru yn niweidiol i economi Cymru Welsh economy and to Welsh public ac i wasanaethau cyhoeddus Cymru. services.

Gwyn R. Price: Thank you for that answer. Gwyn R. Price: Diolch am eich ateb. Minister, Labour councils across Wales, Weinidog, mae cynghorau Llafur ledled including my own in Caerphilly, are Cymru, gan gynnwys fy nghyngor i yng introducing a living wage. At the same time, Nghaerffili, yn cyflwyno cyflog byw. Ar yr the Conservative Government seems un pryd, ymddengys fod y Llywodraeth determined to continue its record of Geidwadol yn benderfynol o barhau â’i damaging the Welsh economy and Welsh record o ddifrodi economi a chymunedau communities, and harming businesses in Cymru a niweidio busnesau yng Nghymru. A Wales. Do you share my concerns? ydych yn rhannu fy mhryderon?

Jane Hutt: I join the Member for Islwyn in Jane Hutt: Ymunaf â’r Aelod dros Islwyn i congratulating Caerphilly County Borough longyfarch Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Council, for example, for implementing a Caerffili, er enghraifft, am weithredu cyflog living wage for its workforce. Following the byw ar gyfer ei weithlu. Yn dilyn datganiad statement made by Carl Sargeant in May, it is Carl Sargeant ym mis Mai, polisi y a clear policy of this Government to support Llywodraeth hon yw cefnogi staff ar gyflog lower-paid staff, because we know that fair is, oherwydd gwyddom y gall cyflog teg pay can not only help productivity and helpu cynhyrchiant a morál yn ogystal â morale but support good health and family chynorthwyo iechyd a bywyd teuluol da. life. It was good to see a Welsh Liberal Roedd yn dda gweld un o Aelodau Seneddol Democrat Member of Parliament, Roger Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru, Roger Williams, saying at the Liberal Democrats’ Williams, yn dweud yng nghynadledd y conference that local pay would leave parts Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol y byddai tâl lleol of the UK with the prospect of a talent drain yn gadael rhannau o’r DU gyda’r as the posibilrwydd o golli pob talent wrth i’r

‘best public sector workers leave for richer gweithwyr sector cyhoeddus gorau adael am pastures’. borfeydd brasach.

We have cross-party agreement that regional Mae gennym gytundeb trawsbleidiol nad yw

12 10/10/2012 pay, and local market-facing pay, is not right tâl rhanbarthol, a thâl y farchnad leol, yn for us, and I hope that the Welsh iawn i ni. Rwy’n gobeithio y bydd y Conservatives will stand up to their Prime Ceidwadwyr Cymreig yn dangos eu hochr Minister on this matter. i’w Prif Weinidog ar y mater hwn.

Paul Davies: As you know, Minister, I have Paul Davies: Fel y gwyddoch, Weinidog, made it clear in the last 12 months that we, rwyf wedi ei gwneud yn glir yn ystod y 12 on this side of the Chamber, are also against mis diwethaf ein bod, ar yr ochr hon i’r the idea of introducing regional pay. We all Siambr, hefyd yn erbyn y syniad o gyflwyno accept that we must grow the private sector in tâl rhanbarthol. Rydym oll yn derbyn bod Wales, but that should not be done by rhaid i ni dyfu’r sector preifat yng Nghymru, squeezing wages in the public sector. ond ni ddylid gwneud hynny drwy wasgu However, given that there is a gap between cyflogau yn y sector cyhoeddus. Fodd public and private sector pay rates, which you bynnag, o ystyried bod bwlch rhwng acknowledged in your statement earlier this cyfraddau cyflog yn y sector cyhoeddus a’r year, could you tell us what role the Welsh sector preifat, y gwnaethoch gydnabod yn Government will play in closing that gap? eich datganiad yn gynharach eleni, a allech ddweud wrthym ba rôl y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei chwarae o ran cau’r bwlch hwnnw?

Jane Hutt: It is about ensuring that we boost Jane Hutt: Mae’n ymwneud â sicrhau ein the private sector, and that is the clear bod yn rhoi hwb i’r sector preifat. Dyna intention and direction of the work of the fwriad a chyfeiriad clir gwaith Llywodraeth Welsh Government in terms of our Cymru o ran ein hymrwymiad a’n cymorth ar commitment and support for business, gyfer busnes, menter, technoleg a enterprise, technology and science. gwyddoniaeth.

Simon Thomas: Weinidog, mae ymchwil Simon Thomas: Minister, research gan Blaid Cymru wedi dangos bod tâl undertaken by Plaid Cymru shows that there rhanbarthol eisoes yn bodoli yng Nghymru. is already regional pay in Wales. If you look Os edrychwch ar sefyllfa athrawon cyflenwi, at the situation with regard to supply er enghraifft, mae athro cyflenwi yn teachers, for example, you will see that a Abertawe yn cael ei dalu rhyw £15 y dydd yn supply teacher in Swansea is paid some £15 llai nag athro cyflenwi yng Nghaerdydd, er per day less than a supply teacher in Cardiff, bod yr asiantaethau sy’n cyflogi’r athrawon even though the agencies that employ the hyn yn codi’r un swm ar awdurdodau lleol. teachers charge local authorities the same Mae rhywun, felly, yn gwneud elw ar dâl amount. Someone is, therefore, profiting rhanbarthol rhywle yn y system addysg yng from regional pay somewhere in the Nghymru. Byddai Plaid Cymru yn dod â hyn education system in Wales. Plaid Cymru i ben. Pa gamau mae eich Llywodraeth chi yn would end this practice. What steps is your eu cymryd i sicrhau bod yr ymgais hon i Government taking to ensure that this attempt gyflwyno tâl rhanbarthol yn dod i ben? to introduce regional pay is brought to an end?

Jane Hutt: All teachers, including supply Jane Hutt: Mae pob athro, gan gynnwys teachers, directly employed by a local athrawon cyflenwi, a gyflogir yn authority or maintained school are paid in uniongyrchol gan awdurdod lleol neu ysgol a accordance with the ‘School Teachers’ Pay gynhelir yn cael eu talu yn unol â ‘Dogfen and Conditions Document’. However, the Cyflog ac Amodau Athrawon Ysgol’. Fodd Welsh Government recognises the situation bynnag, mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn facing supply teachers and the use of cydnabod y sefyllfa sy’n wynebu athrawon agencies. We are working collaboratively cyflenwi a’r defnydd o asiantaethau. Rydym with Cardiff Council to address this issue and yn gweithio ar y cyd â Chyngor Caerdydd i to ensure that these matters, which are not fynd i’r afael â’r mater hwn ac i sicrhau bod y

13 10/10/2012 devolved, are addressed appropriately. materion hyn, nad ydynt wedi’u datganoli, yn cael sylw priodol.

Aled Roberts: Minister, you referred to the Aled Roberts: Weinidog, cyfeirioch at Liberal Democrats’ objections to regional wrthwynebiadau’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol pay. Can you assure us that your Government i dâl rhanbarthol. A allwch ein sicrhau y bydd will oppose discussions within the Labour eich Llywodraeth yn gwrthwynebu Party regarding a regional cap on benefits? trafodaethau o fewn y Blaid Lafur ynghylch cap rhanbarthol ar fudd-daliadau?

Jane Hutt: We have made that clear. The Jane Hutt: Rydym wedi gwneud hynny’n First Minister was able to make that clear in glir. Roedd y Prif Weinidog yn glir wrth response to questions yesterday—no to ymateb i gwestiynau ddoe—na i dâl regional pay and no to regional caps on rhanbarthol ac na i gap rhanbarthol ar fudd- benefits. daliadau.

Ariannu drwy Gynyddrannau Treth Tax Increment Financing

7. Kirsty Williams: Pa drafodaethau y mae’r 7. Kirsty Williams: What discussions has the Gweinidog wedi’u cael gyda’i chyd-aelodau Minister had with Cabinet colleagues about yn y Cabinet am gyflwyno ariannu drwy the introduction of tax increment financing in gynyddrannau treth yng Nghymru. Wales. OAQ(4)0165(FIN) OAQ(4)0165(FIN)

10. William Powell: Pa gynnydd sydd wedi 10. William Powell: What progress has been cael ei wneud gydag ariannu drwy made with tax increment financing since the gynyddrannau treth ers i’r Gweinidog Minister committed to looking at it in 2011. ymrwymo i edrych ar hyn yn 2011. OAQ(4)0166(FIN) OAQ(4)0166(FIN)

Jane Hutt: I regularly discuss a range of Jane Hutt: Rwy’n trafod ystod o faterion matters with Cabinet colleagues, including gyda’m cydweithwyr yn y Cabinet yn innovative mechanisms for financing rheolaidd, gan gynnwys dulliau arloesol ar investment. I made a statement on tax gyfer cyllido buddsoddiadau. Gwneuthum increment financing in my recent response to ddatganiad ar ariannu drwy gynyddrannau the Finance Committee report on borrowing treth yn fy ymateb diweddar i adroddiad y powers and innovative approaches to capital Pwyllgor Cyllid ar bwerau benthyca a dulliau funding. arloesol o gyllid cyfalaf.

The Leader of the Welsh Liberal Arweinydd Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Democrats (Kirsty Williams): Thank you Cymru (Kirsty Williams): Diolch am yr for that answer, Minister. As part of your ateb, Weinidog. Fel rhan o’ch trafodaethau discussions with Ministers, have you gyda Gweinidogion, a ydych wedi ystyried a considered whether the tax increment fyddai’r model ariannu drwy gynyddrannau financing model would be financially treth yn gynaliadwy yn ariannol ar gyfer sustainable for regeneration projects in rural prosiectau adfywio yng Nghymru wledig? Wales? Such projects are likely to be smaller Mae prosiectau o’r fath yn debygol o fod yn and the returns lower each year. If tax llai ac mae’r enillion yn gostwng bob increment financing is not suitable for blwyddyn. Os na fydd ariannu drwy developments in rural Wales, what innovative gynyddrannau treth yn addas ar gyfer plans do you have to ensure that regeneration datblygiadau yng nghefn gwlad Cymru, pa projects in rural Wales go ahead? gynlluniau arloesol sydd gennych i sicrhau bod prosiectau adfywio yng Nghymru wledig yn mynd yn eu blaen?

14 10/10/2012

Jane Hutt: As I have said, tax increment Jane Hutt: Fel y dywedais, mae ariannu financing is an option, among a range of drwy gynyddrannau treth yn opsiwn, ymysg innovative finance solutions. The business nifer o ddatrysiadau cyllid arloesol. rates task and finish group recommended that Argymhellodd y grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen ar we monitor progress regarding the drethi busnes ein bod yn monitro y cynnydd implementation of tax increment financing in sy’n cael ei wneud o ran ariannu drwy England and Scotland, which I intend to do. gynyddrannau treth yn Lloegr a’r Alban, yr We will look at issues relating to rural areas. wyf yn bwriadu ei wneud. Byddwn yn edrych However, I would say that, at this stage, we ar faterion yn ymwneud ag ardaloedd believe that the local government borrowing gwledig. Fodd bynnag, byddwn yn dweud, ar initiative, which we are taking forward, is hyn o bryd, ein bod yn credu bod y fenter benefitting rural areas. For example, Powys is benthyca llywodraeth leol, yr ydym yn bwrw getting £4.7 million in highways ymlaen â hi, o fudd i ardaloedd gwledig. Er improvements this year. Clearly, we will look enghraifft, mae Powys yn cael £4.7 miliwn at tax increment finance and the opportunities mewn gwelliannau priffyrdd eleni. Yn available. amlwg, byddwn yn edrych ar ariannu drwy gynyddrannau treth a’r cyfleoedd sydd ar gael.

William Powell: Minister, staying with this William Powell: Weinidog, gan aros gyda’r theme, we have seen from the United States thema hon, rydym wedi gweld yn yr Unol of America over recent decades that TIF has Daleithiau o America yn ystod y degawdau proved to be of significant benefit, enabling diweddar fod ariannu cynyddiad treth wedi developments for which it would, otherwise, profi i fod o fudd sylweddol, gan alluogi have been very difficult to attract finance. datblygiadau y byddai, fel arall, wedi bod yn With that in mind, could you please outline anodd iawn i ddenu cyllid ar eu cyfer. Gyda any discussions that you or your officials hynny mewn golwg, a fyddech cystal ag have had with colleagues regarding the amlinellu unrhyw drafodaethau yr ydych chi potential for TIF to be integrated with the neu eich swyddogion wedi’u cael gyda enterprise zone approach, particularly in mid chydweithwyr ynghylch y potensial i and west Wales—I am thinking, in particular, integreiddio ariannu cynyddiad treth â’r dull of the Haven area—to ensure that we are able ardaloedd menter, yn arbennig yng to maximise the potential? nghanolbarth a gorllewin Cymru—rwy’n meddwl yn benodol am ardal Daugleddau—o sicrhau ein bod yn gallu manteisio i’r eithaf ar y potensial?

Jane Hutt: Yes, following up on the Jane Hutt: Gallaf, yn dilyn cwestiwn Kirsty question from Kirsty Williams on this point, Williams ar y pwynt hwn, gwyddom fod yr we know that the option is available for use opsiwn ar gael i’w ddefnyddio gan by local authorities in Wales. They, like us, awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru. Maent hwy, are looking at ways in which we can learn fel ni, yn edrych ar ffyrdd y gallwn ddysgu lessons and progress this, in particular in gwersi a datblygu hyn, yn enwedig mewn response to the business rates task and finish ymateb i’r grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen ar group. However, I am sure that the Minister ardrethi busnes. Fodd bynnag, rwy’n siŵr y for Business, Enterprise, Technology and bydd y Gweinidog Busnes, Menter, Science will be aware of how this can also Technoleg a Gwyddoniaeth yn ymwybodol o link to the enterprise zone strategy. sut y gall hyn hefyd gysylltu â’r strategaeth ardaloedd menter.

William Graham: In June of last year, William Graham: Ym mis Mehefin y Edwina Hart mentioned, very prudently, in llynedd, soniodd Edwina Hart, yn ddoeth, o respect of TIF, that we have to understand the ran ariannu cynyddiad treth, bod rhaid inni detail. Two options were given—an open ddeall y manylion. Rhoddwyd dau opsiwn— structure that lets councils invest and take on strwythur agored sy’n caniatáu i gynghorau

15 10/10/2012 the risks, or an option with stronger fuddsoddi a chymryd risgiau, neu opsiwn â government control that guarantees revenue rheolaeth gryfach lywodraethol sy’n and disregards the levy or reset processes. gwarantu refeniw ac yn diystyru’r prosesau Which one does the Government favour? ardoll neu ailosod. Pa un y mae’r Llywodraeth yn ffafrio?

Jane Hutt: Clearly, we are looking at impact Jane Hutt: Yn amlwg, rydym yn edrych ar of TIF and its use in England and Scotland, effaith ariannu cynyddiad treth a’i ddefnydd and we will, of course, address that if we yn Lloegr a’r Alban, a byddwn, wrth gwrs, decide to advise local authorities to take this yn mynd i’r afael â hynny os byddwn yn forward. penderfynu cynghori awdurdodau lleol i symud hyn ymlaen.

Russell George: Minister, accepting the Russell George: Weinidog, gan dderbyn yr recommendations made by the Finance argymhellion a wnaed gan y Pwyllgor Cyllid Committee in its report on borrowing powers yn ei adroddiad ar bwerau benthyca a dulliau and innovative approaches to capital funding, arloesol o gyllid cyfalaf, pa werthusiadau what early evaluations have you concluded cynnar ydych wedi dod i’r casgliad yn eu from current projects in other parts of the UK cylch o ran prosiectau presennol mewn regarding the value for money aspect of TIF, rhannau eraill o’r DU ynghylch gwerth am and have you identified any potential Welsh arian ariannu cynyddiad treth, ac a ydych pilot schemes that could use TIF in the near wedi canfod unrhyw gynlluniau peilot posibl future? yng Nghymru a allai ddefnyddio ariannu cynyddiad treth yn y dyfodol agos?

Jane Hutt: As I said, tax incremental Jane Hutt: Fel y dywedais, nid yw ariannu financing has not been discounted. In cynyddiad treth wedi cael ei ddiystyru. Mewn response to the former question, we need to ymateb i’r cwestiwn blaenorol, dywedais fod look at whether it provides robust value for angen i ni edrych a yw’n cynnig gwerth money and whether it offers better economic cadarn am arian ac a yw’n cynnig outcomes than homegrown solutions, such as canlyniadau economaidd gwell na the local government borrowing initiative, datrysiadau cartref, fel y fenter benthyca which I have already mentioned. llywodraeth leol, yr wyf eisoes wedi’i chrybwyll.

Gweinidogion y Trysorlys Treasury Ministers

8. Julie Morgan: A wnaiff y Gweinidog 8. Julie Morgan: Will the Minister make a ddatganiad am ei chyfarfodydd diweddaraf statement about her latest meetings with gyda Gweinidogion yn Nhrysorlys Ei Ministers at HM Treasury. Mawrhydi. OAQ(4)0167(FIN) OAQ(4)0167(FIN)

Jane Hutt: I meet regularly with Treasury Jane Hutt: Rwy’n cyfarfod yn rheolaidd Ministers to discuss a range of financial gyda Gweinidogion y Trysorlys i drafod issues affecting Wales. ystod o faterion ariannol sy’n effeithio ar Gymru.

Julie Morgan: Thank you, Minister, for that Julie Morgan: Diolch am yr ateb hwnnw, reply. Were you able to discuss any new Weinidog. A oeddech yn gallu trafod unrhyw ways of financing the much needed ffyrdd newydd o ariannu’r prosiectau infrastructure projects that we have already seilwaith sydd mawr eu hangen yr ydym heard about today? I am not referring to the eisoes wedi clywed amdanynt heddiw? Nid discredited private finance initiative, but any wyf yn cyfeirio at y fenter cyllid preifat anfri, other models of public-private partnership or ond unrhyw fodelau eraill o bartneriaeth type of model that would produce the money gyhoeddus a phreifat neu unrhyw fath o fodel

16 10/10/2012 that is needed so much for capital projects. a fyddai’n cynhyrchu’r arian sydd gymaint ei angen ar brosiectau cyfalaf.

Jane Hutt: Not only do I discuss approaches Jane Hutt: Rwy’n trafod dulliau buddsoddi to infrastructure investment with UK isadeiledd gyda Gweinidogion Llywodraeth y Government Ministers and the Treasury, I DU a’r Trysorlys yn ogystal â Gweinidogion also do so with Ministers in Scotland and the yn yr Alban a Llywodraeth yr Alban. Rydym Scottish Government. We exchange yn cyfnewid gwybodaeth am arfer gorau ac information about best practice and we look yn edrych ar ddatblygu datrysiadau ariannol at and develop those innovative financial arloesol. Gyda thoriad o 45% yn ein grant solutions. With a 45% cut in our capital grant cyfalaf gan Lywodraeth y DU, mae hyn yn by the UK Government, this is essential. Last hanfodol. Yr wythnos diwethaf, yn Llundain, week, in London, I was able to present the cyflwynais gynllun buddsoddi seilwaith Wales infrastructure investment plan to Cymru i fuddsoddwyr yn Sefydliad investors at the Institute of Chartered Cyfrifwyr Siartredig Cymru a Lloegr, ac Accountants in England and Wales, and they roeddent yn teimlo ein bod wedi cymryd y felt that we had taken the right route forward llwybr cywir trwy beidio â defnyddio’r fenter by not using the discredited PFI, and looking, cyllid preifat anfri, gan edrych, yn hytrach, ar instead, at innovative solutions, such as the ddatrysiadau arloesol, megis y fenter local government borrowing initiative. benthyca llywodraeth leol.

Mark Isherwood: Will you bring us up to Mark Isherwood: A wnewch chi roi’r date on your discussions with the Treasury on wybodaeth ddiweddaraf inni hyd yn hyn ar the scrapping of the housing revenue account eich trafodaethau gyda’r Trysorlys ar gael subsidy scheme, which ended in England in gawred ar gynllun cymhorthdal y cyfrif April? In particular, will you update us on the refeniw tai, a ddaeth i ben yn Lloegr ym mis amount of net additional funding that you Ebrill? Yn benodol, a wnewch chi roi’r would anticipate Welsh local authorities wybodaeth ddiweddaraf inni ar faint o arian receiving? We understand that the gross net ychwanegol y byddech yn disgwyl i figure will be about £70 million but that the awdurdodau lleol Cymru ei dderbyn? net figure is likely to be substantially less. Deallwn y bydd y ffigur gros tua £70 miliwn, ond bod y ffigwr net yn debygol o fod yn sylweddol llai.

Jane Hutt: I know that the Minister for Jane Hutt: Gwn fod y Gweinidog tai am housing would like to update Members as roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i Aelodau cyn soon as these negotiations on the HRAS gynted ag y bydd y trafodaethau hyn ar y settlement have concluded. setliad ar gymhorthdal y cyfrif refeniw tai wedi dod i ben.

2.00 p.m.

Llyr Huws Gruffydd: Yr wyf yn nodi â Llyr Huws Gruffydd: I note with interest diddordeb eich ateb blaenorol i Julie Morgan. your previous answer to Julie Morgan’s O ran yr opsiynau yr ydych wedi eu trafod â’r question. On the options that you have Trysorlys o safbwynt modelau eraill, a discussed with the Treasury in terms of ydyw’r model o gwmni buddsoddiad cyfalaf alternative models, is the model of a non- diddifidend, tebyg i Adeiladu dros Gymru, yn dividend capital investment company, similar un o’r opsiynau hynny yr ydych wedi eu to Build4Wales, one of those options that you hystyried? have considered?

Jane Hutt: Certainly. Discussions are Jane Hutt: Yn sicr. Mae trafodaethau yn ongoing about the kind of not-for-profit, non- parhau am y math o gerbyd buddsoddi dielw dividend investment vehicle that we may a di-ddifidend y byddwn o bosibl yn dewis ei choose to develop. Gerry Holtham is advising ddatblygu. Mae Gerry Holtham yn ein

17 10/10/2012 us on this. It is something where we are cynghori ar hyn. Mae’n rhywbeth lle rydym learning lessons from Scotland, in particular, yn dysgu gwersi o’r Alban, yn arbennig, o in terms of the way forward. ran y ffordd ymlaen.

Buddsoddi Cyfalaf Capital Investment

9. Peter Black: A wnaiff y Gweinidog 9. Peter Black: Will the Minister make a ddatganiad am sut y mae modelau ariannol statement on how new financial models are newydd yn cael eu defnyddio i roi hwb i being used to boost capital investment by the fuddsoddiad cyfalaf gan Lywodraeth Cymru. Welsh Government. OAQ(4)0159(FIN) OAQ(4)0159(FIN)

Jane Hutt: I provided an update on Jane Hutt: Rhoddais y wybodaeth initiatives to supplement traditional capital ddiweddaraf am fentrau i ychwanegu at funding with innovative finance in my gyllid cyfalaf traddodiadol gyda chyllid response to the Finance Committee’s inquiry arloesol yn fy ymateb i ymchwiliad y into borrowing powers. These initiatives will Pwyllgor Cyllid i bwerau benthyca. Bydd y generate more than £1 billion-worth of mentrau hyn yn cynhyrchu mwy na £1 biliwn capital investment in Wales between now and o fuddsoddiad cyfalaf yng Nghymru rhwng 2020. nawr a 2020.

Peter Black: Returning to tax increment Peter Black: Gan ddychwelyd at ariannu financing, you will know that the UK drwy gynyddrannau treth, byddwch yn Government made an announcement in July, gwybod bod Llywodraeth y DU wedi which is now over three months ago, on how cyhoeddi ym mis Gorffennaf, sydd bellach that will be used in England. When I dros dri mis yn ôl, sut y bydd hynny’n cael ei questioned you on 10 July, you said that you ddefnyddio yn Lloegr. Pan gawsoch eich holi were still looking at that particular model. gennyf ar 10 Gorffennaf, dywedasoch eich Today, once more, you are still looking at bod yn dal i edrych ar y model penodol that particular model. Can we have an hwnnw. Heddiw, unwaith eto, rydych yn indication as to when exactly you will be parhau i edrych ar y model penodol hwnnw. doing something about this? A allwn gael syniad o ran pryd yn union y byddwch yn gwneud rhywbeth am hyn?

Jane Hutt: I did make the point in full, I Jane Hutt: Gwneuthum y pwynt yn llawn, believe, in response to the two questions and rwy’n credu, mewn ymateb i ddau gwestiwn supplementary questions about this. We are a chwestiynau atodol ynglŷn â hyn. Rydym looking at this. It is clear; it is linked to our yn edrych ar y mater hwn. Mae’n amlwg; consideration of the business rates review, mae’n gysylltiedig â’n hystyriaeth o’r and we believe that the progress that we are adolygiad ardrethi busnes, ac rydym yn credu making on other innovative vehicles is taking bod y cynnydd yr ydym yn ei wneud ar us forward. Not just the local government gerbydau arloesol eraill yn mynd â ni ymlaen. housing borrowing initiative, but the housing Nid yn unig menter benthyca llywodraeth bond, for example, and the Welsh housing leol ar gyfer tai, ond mae’r bond tai, er partnership are at the forefront at this stage of enghraifft, a phartneriaeth tai Cymru ar flaen our action on this matter. y gad yn ystod y cyfnod hwn o’n gwaith ar y mater hwn.

Peter Black: A number of English cities Peter Black: Mae nifer o ddinasoedd yn benefit from the investment and the Lloegr yn cael budd o’r buddsoddiad a’r regeneration that this particular model is adfywio y mae’r model penodol yn dod bringing to them, while areas in Wales are iddynt, tra bod ardaloedd yng Nghymru yn still waiting for your decision. Can you give dal i aros am eich penderfyniad. A allwch roi an indication as to when an announcement syniad o ran pryd y bydd cyhoeddiad yn cael will be made on this model? ei wneud ar y model hwn?

18 10/10/2012

Jane Hutt: I think that this is work in Jane Hutt: Credaf fod y gwaith hwn yn progress, and we will report in due course. I mynd rhagddo, a byddwn yn adrodd arno, am sure that Peter Black would agree that the maes o law. Rwy’n siŵr y byddai Peter Black innovative way that the Ministers for yn cytuno bod y ffordd arloesol y mae’r business and housing have taken forward the Gweinidogion ar gyfer busnes a thai wedi Ely Bridge Development Company on the datblygu’r Ely Bridge Development Ely Mill site is an example of working with a Company ar safle melin Trelái yn enghraifft local authority, and of how we can develop a o weithio gydag awdurdod lleol, ac o sut y new model of delivery with 750 housing gallwn ddatblygu model newydd o ddarparu units, half of which are affordable as a result. gyda 750 o unedau tai, hanner ohonynt yn dai fforddiadwy, o ganlyniad i hynny.

Byron Davies: You will be up to speed, of Byron Davies: Byddwch wedi cael y course, on the new UK Government-funded wybodaeth ddiweddaraf, wrth gwrs, am y bank to help small and medium-sized banc newydd a ariennir gan Lywodraeth y businesses, which aims to attract private Deyrnas Unedig i helpu busnesau bach a sector funding so that, when fully chanolig eu maint, sy’n anelu at ddenu arian operational, it could support up to £10 billion sector preifat er mwyn iddo allu cefnogi hyd of new and additional business lending. What at £10 biliwn o fenthyca newydd ac discussions have you and your department ychwanegol i fusnesau pan fydd yn llawn had with the UK Government to maximise weithredol. Pa drafodaethau ydych chi a’ch the potential and access for Welsh firms? adran wedi’u cael gyda Llywodraeth y DU i Will you outline your vision for engaging wneud y gorau o’r potensial a sicrhau with the bank and outline how the Labour mynediad i gwmnïau o Gymru? A wnewch Government in Wales plans to dovetail into chi amlinellu eich gweledigaeth ar gyfer this arrangement? ymgysylltu â’r banc ac amlinellu sut y mae’r Llywodraeth Lafur yng Nghymru yn bwriadu asio â’r trefniant hwn?

Jane Hutt: This is a matter for the Minister Jane Hutt: Mae hwn yn fater i’r Gweinidog for business, but discussions and negotiations dros fusnes, ond mae trafodaethau â with the UK Government are ongoing. Llywodraeth y DU yn mynd rhagddynt.

Elin Jones: Can you confirm whether there Elin Jones: A allwch gadarnhau a oes is a moratorium on health capital projects moratoriwm ar brosiectau cyfalaf iechyd nes until consultations on NHS reconfigurations y bydd ymgynghoriadau ar ad-drefnu’r GIG are complete? If not, can you explain why the wedi’u cwblhau? Os na allwch, a allwch Minister for health has written to me to say egluro pam mae’r Gweinidog dros iechyd that she is unable to progress the submitted wedi ysgrifennu ataf i ddweud na all symud strategic outline case for the Cylch Caron ymlaen â’r cynlluniau strategol amlinellol a project in Tregaron, in my constituency, until gyflwynwyd ar gyfer prosiect Cylch Caron Hywel Dda health board’s consultation is yn Nhregaron, yn fy etholaeth i, nes y bydd complete, when this project is not even the ymgynghoriad bwrdd iechyd Hywel Dda subject of a formal question in that wedi ei gwblhau, pan nad yw’r prosiect hwn consultation and is a local authority-led hyd yn oed yn destun cwestiwn ffurfiol yn yr project? ymgynghoriad hwnnw ac mae’n brosiect o dan arweiniad yr awdurdod lleol?

Jane Hutt: I believe that my announcements Jane Hutt: Credaf fod fy nghyhoeddiadau’r last week of extra capital investment in the wythnos diwethaf ynghylch buddsoddiad health service quite clearly shows our cyfalaf ychwanegol yn y gwasanaeth iechyd commitment to progressing and bringing yn dangos yn glir ein hymrwymiad i forward capital programmes across Wales ddatblygu a chyflwyno rhaglenni cyfalaf and in areas where reconfiguration plans are ledled Cymru ac mewn ardaloedd lle mae

19 10/10/2012 being considered. I am sure that the Minister cynlluniau ad-drefnu yn cael eu hystyried. for health would want to answer that key Rwy’n siŵr y byddai’r Gweinidog dros point in terms of local authority engagement. iechyd am ateb y pwynt allweddol hwnnw o ran ymgysylltu ag awdurdod lleol.

Mynediad at Wasanaethau Access to Services

11. Paul Davies: A wnaiff y Gweinidog 11. Paul Davies: Will the Minister make a ddatganiad am gydraddoldeb mynediad at statement on the equality of access to wasanaethau yng Nghymru. services in Wales. OAQ(4)0161(FIN) OAQ(4)0161(FIN)

Jane Hutt: Objective 6 in the Welsh Jane Hutt: Mae amcan 6 yng nghynllun Government’s strategic equality plan puts the cydraddoldeb strategol Llywodraeth Cymru needs of service users at the heart of delivery yn rhoi anghenion defnyddwyr gwasanaeth in key public services. wrth galon y ddarpariaeth o wasanaethau cyhoeddus allweddol.

Paul Davies: You may or may not be aware, Paul Davies: Mae’n bosibl y byddwch yn Minister, that HSBC has decided to close its ymwybodol, Weinidog, neu efallai ddim, fod branch in St Davids in my constituency. HSBC wedi penderfynu cau ei gangen yn While I understand that all branches must be Nhyddewi yn fy etholaeth i. Er fy mod yn commercially viable, I remain concerned deall bod rhaid i bob cangen fod yn fasnachol about the effect that this closure will have on hyfyw, rwy’n parhau i fod yn bryderus am yr the local community, particularly elderly effaith y bydd cau’r gangen hon yn ei chael people who have no access to the internet and ar y gymuned leol, yn enwedig pobl those with mobility problems. I appreciate oedrannus nad oes ganddynt fynediad at y that this is not directly in your control, rhyngrwyd a’r rhai sydd â phroblemau Minister, but what specific action is the symudedd. Rwy’n gwerthfawrogi nad yw’r Welsh Government taking to ensure that mater hwn yn uniongyrchol o dan eich vulnerable groups, such as the elderly in rheolaeth, Weinidog, ond pa gamau penodol more rural locations, have equality of access y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn eu cymryd i to essential services such as these? sicrhau bod grwpiau sy’n agored i niwed, fel yr henoed mewn ardaloedd mwy gwledig, yn cael mynediad cyfartal at wasanaethau hanfodol fel y rhain?

Jane Hutt: The work undertaken by my Jane Hutt: Mae’r gwaith a wnaed gan fy officials on Communities 2.0 in terms of swyddogion ar gynllun Cymunedau 2.0 o ran access to digital inclusion is key to this in mynediad at gynhwysiant digidol yn terms of tackling that financial exclusion. allweddol i’r mater hwn o ran mynd i’r afael Our public sector equality duties for Wales â’r allgau ariannol hwn. Mae ein are underpinned by the equality objectives. In dyletswyddau cydraddoldeb yn y sector terms of the impact of the closure of that cyhoeddus yng Nghymru yn cael eu hategu particular branch and changes that are gan yr amcanion cydraddoldeb. O ran effaith forthcoming in the ways in which people cau’r gangen arbennig honno a’r newidiadau expect to access universal credit from the UK arfaethedig yn y ffyrdd y mae pobl yn Government, this will have a major disgwyl cael mynediad at gredyd cynhwysol detrimental impact on your constituents. gan Lywodraeth y DU, bydd y pethau hynny’n cael effaith niweidiol sylweddol ar eich etholwyr.

Lindsay Whittle: Minister, the Party of Lindsay Whittle: Weinidog, mae Plaid Wales remains committed to ensuring that Cymru wedi ymrwymo i sicrhau bod health services are provided as close to gwasanaethau iechyd yn cael eu darparu mor

20 10/10/2012 people and their communities as possible to agos â phosibl i bobl a’u cymunedau er ensure a healthier Wales. However, one of mwyn sicrhau Cymru iachach. Fodd bynnag, the main results of the reconfiguration of the un o brif ganlyniadau ad-drefnu’r health services will be the loss of health gwasanaethau iechyd fydd colli services at a community level. Do you gwasanaethau iechyd ar lefel gymunedol. A accept, with your equalities portfolio hat on, ydych yn derbyn, gan wisgo eich het that by centralising health services, many of portffolio cydraddoldeb, wrth ganoli our most vulnerable people, and particularly gwasanaethau iechyd, na fydd llawer o’n older people, will not have the same ease of pobl fwyaf agored i niwed, yn enwedig pobl access to services that they have at present? hŷn, yn cael yr un mynediad at wasanaethau ag sydd ganddynt ar hyn o bryd?

Jane Hutt: The major impacts of some of the Jane Hutt: Mae effeithiau sylweddol rhai o’r innovative schemes that have been taken cynlluniau arloesol sydd wedi cael eu forward, such as the Gwent frailty project in datblygu, fel prosiect eiddilwch Gwent yn your region, which is funded by the Welsh eich rhanbarth chi, sy’n cael ei ariannu gan Government through invest-to-save, mean Lywodraeth Cymru drwy’r fenter buddsoddi i that people are being enabled to access arbed, yn golygu bod pobl yn cael eu galluogi services in the community, rather than i gael mynediad at wasanaethau yn y depend on hospital bed use. Innovation is gymuned, yn hytrach na dibynnu ar about enhancing community and primary ddefnyddio gwelyau ysbyty. Mae arloesi’n care use. golygu gwella’r defnydd a wneir o ofal yn y gymuned a gofal sylfaenol.

Cynllun Buddsoddi yn Seilwaith Cymru Wales Infrastructure Investment Plan

12. Joyce Watson: A wnaiff y Gweinidog 12. Joyce Watson: Will the Minister make a ddatganiad am Gynllun Buddsoddi yn statement on the Wales Infrastructure Seilwaith Cymru. OAQ(4)0168(FIN) Investment Plan. OAQ(4)0168(FIN)

Jane Hutt: The Wales infrastructure Jane Hutt: Mae’r cynllun buddsoddi yn investment plan, which I published in May, seilwaith Cymru, a gyhoeddais ym mis Mai, demonstrates the Government’s commitment yn dangos ymrwymiad y Llywodraeth i to sustainable economic prosperity. It sets out ffyniant economaidd cynaliadwy. Mae’n nodi how we will invest around £15 billion in sut y byddwn yn buddsoddi tua £15 biliwn infrastructure over the next decade to boost mewn seilwaith dros y degawd nesaf i hybu growth and jobs and to improve public twf a swyddi ac i wella gwasanaethau services. cyhoeddus.

Joyce Watson: Thank you very much for Joyce Watson: Diolch yn fawr am yr ateb that answer. Studies show that for every hwnnw. Mae astudiaethau’n dangos am bob pound spent on construction, we get £2.84 punt a gaiff ei gwario ar adeiladu, rydym yn back in economic activity. Therefore, we cael £2.84 yn ôl mewn gweithgarwch need to make sure that Wales gets the economaidd. Felly, mae angen inni sicrhau maximum benefit from that cashback. What bod Cymru’n cael y budd mwyaf posibl o’r is the Government doing to help Welsh arian yr ydym yn ei gael yn ôl. Beth mae’r business to secure construction and Llywodraeth yn ei wneud i helpu busnesau infrastructure contracts and sub-contracts? Cymru i sicrhau contractau ac is-gontractau adeiladu a seilwaith?

Jane Hutt: The importance of boosting Jane Hutt: Mae pwysigrwydd hybu investment infrastructure is proven in terms buddsoddiad mewn seilwaith wedi’i brofi of growth and jobs. There have been strong mewn perthynas â thyfiant a swyddi. Cafwyd messages today to the UK Government in negeseuon cryf heddiw i Lywodraeth y DU o terms of its failure to boost growth and jobs ran ei methiant i hybu twf a swyddi trwy

21 10/10/2012 through infrastructure investment. Last week, fuddsoddi mewn seilwaith. Yr wythnos I announced a further £10 million in vital diwethaf, cyhoeddais £10 miliwn mewn flood and coastal defence improvements, gwelliannau hanfodol i amddiffyn rhag which will have that impact. The llifogydd ac amddiffyn yr arfordir, a fydd yn procurement process is key to this issue in cael yr effaith honno. Mae’r broses gaffael yn terms of delivering community benefits. allweddol i’r mater hwn o ran sicrhau manteision cymunedol.

Andrew R.T. Davies: You have talked of Andrew R.T. Davies: Rydych wedi sôn am significant sums of money, Minister for symiau sylweddol o arian, Weinidog Finance—£15 billion—but just spending the Cyllid—£15 biliwn—ond nid yw gwario’r money is no prerequisite to getting an arian hwnnw yn unig yn rhagofyniad i advantage for the Welsh economy. What sicrhau mantais ar gyfer economi Cymru. Pa criteria are used by you, as Minister for feini prawf a ddefnyddir gennych, fel Finance and the Government as a whole, Gweinidog Cyllid, a’r Llywodraeth gyfan, when assessing projects, to know that you are wrth asesu prosiectau, i wybod eich bod yn getting good value for money and that we are cael gwerth da am arian a’n bod yn cael mwy getting more money back than we are o arian yn ôl nag yr ydym yn ei wario ar y spending on the projects in which we seek to prosiectau yr ydym am fuddsoddi ynddynt? invest?

Jane Hutt: We have developed the Jane Hutt: Rydym wedi datblygu’r dull community benefits tool to measure the manteision cymunedol i fesur effaith y polisi impact of the community benefits caffael manteision cymunedol. Mae procurement policy. The investment results canlyniadau ac ystadegau’r buddsoddiad yn and statistics are positive, and show that 78% gadarnhaol, ac yn dangos y cafodd 78% ei was spent in Wales in 13 completed projects wario yng Nghymru ar 13 o brosiectau a recently. It is not just about procurement gwblhawyd yn ddiweddar. Nid y polisi policy; it is also about the business case and caffael yw’r unig ganolbwynt; mae hefyd yn robust planning in project management. ymwneud â’r achos busnes a chynllunio cadarn wrth reoli prosiect.

Simon Thomas: Weinidog, cadarnhaodd y Simon Thomas: Minister, yesterday the First Prif Weinidog ddoe, ac yr ydych chi wedi Minister confirmed, and you have said today, dweud heddiw, eich bod fel Llywodraeth yn that you, as a Government, are looking at an edrych ar gerbyd buddsoddi tebyg i syniad investment vehicle similar to Plaid Cymru’s Plaid Cymru, Build4Wales. Mae Plaid Cymru concept, Build4Wales. Plaid Cymru always wastad yn croesawu pechadur edifeiriol. welcomes a repentant sinner. Despite that, Serch hynny, a wnewch chi gadarnhau y will you confirm that the methods that you bydd y dulliau rydych yn edrych arnynt yn are looking at will recycle profit in order to ailgylchu elw er mwyn buddsoddi ymhellach invest further in the Welsh economy? That is yn economi Cymru? Mae hynny’n hanfodol o crucially important in these new methods. ran y dulliau newydd hyn.

Jane Hutt: I am glad that Simon Thomas and Jane Hutt: Rwy’n falch bod Simon Thomas Plaid Cymru welcome the Welsh a Phlaid Cymru yn croesawu cynnig Government’s move to create what I have Llywodraeth Cymru i greu’r hyn a described as ‘infrastructure Wales’. As the ddisgrifiais fel ‘seilwaith Cymru’. Fel y First Minister said, we are on the same page dywedodd y Prif Weinidog, rydym ar yr un here, and we are very glad that we have the dudalen yma, ac rydym yn falch iawn ein bod benefit of Gerry Holtham’s expertise, which I yn manteisio ar arbenigedd Gerry Holtham, know you all value. He is now looking across yr wyf yn gwybod eich bod i gyd yn ei the board, including at the Scottish model, to werthfawrogi. Mae’n awr yn edrych ar y take us forward. An announcement will be darlun cyffredinol, gan gynnwys model yr made shortly. Alban, i fynd â ni ymlaen. Bydd cyhoeddiad

22 10/10/2012

yn cael ei wneud yn fuan.

Effeithlonrwydd ac Arloesedd Ariannol Financial Efficiency and Innovation

13. David Melding: Pa fesurau sydd ar waith 13. David Melding: What measures are in i hybu effeithlonrwydd ac arloesedd ariannol place to promote financial efficiency and yn Llywodraeth Cymru. OAQ(4)0156(FIN) innovation in the Welsh Government. OAQ(4)0156(FIN)

Jane Hutt: Reducing budgets makes it more Jane Hutt: Mae lleihau cyllidebau yn ei important than ever that we secure value for gwneud yn fwy pwysig nag erioed ein bod yn money from every pound we spend. sicrhau gwerth am arian o bob punt a wariwn.

David Melding: That is a sentiment I David Melding: Rwy’n sicr yn cytuno â’r certainly agree with, Minister. Do you agree teimlad hwnnw, Weinidog. A ydych yn that, as a general approach, it is better to cytuno, fel dull cyffredinol, ei bod yn well examine whole programmes of work rather archwilio rhaglenni gwaith cyfan yn hytrach than to impose flat efficiency savings across na gorfodi arbedion effeithlonrwydd gwastad all departments? How are you taking forward ar draws yr holl adrannau? Sut ydych yn that work to ensure that public programmes dwyn y gwaith hwnnw yn ei flaen i sicrhau remain useful and productive? bod rhaglenni cyhoeddus yn parhau i fod yn ddefnyddiol ac yn gynhyrchiol?

Jane Hutt: That is vital in monitoring and Jane Hutt: Mae hynny’n hanfodol wrth evaluating the impact of our work as part of fonitro a gwerthuso effaith ein gwaith fel the programme for government. However, I rhan o’r rhaglen lywodraethu. Fodd bynnag, would also say to the Member, to David byddwn hefyd yn dweud wrth David Melding, that the equality impact assessment Melding, yr Aelod, fod yr asesiad o’r effaith has provided a very useful source of ar gydraddoldeb wedi darparu ffynhonnell documentation on how Ministers are ddefnyddiol iawn o ddogfennaeth ar sut y addressing these issues and evaluating their mae Gweinidogion yn mynd i’r afael â’r budgetary priorities. materion hyn ac yn gwerthuso eu blaenoriaethau cyllidebol.

Credyd Cynhwysol Universal Credit

14. Mark Drakeford: Sut y bydd cyflwyno 14. Mark Drakeford: What impact will the Credyd Cynhwysol yn effeithio ar faterion introduction of Universal Credit have on cydraddoldeb yng Nghymru. equality issues in Wales. OAQ(4)0169(FIN) OAQ(4)0169(FIN)

Jane Hutt: The Welsh Government is Jane Hutt: Mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn concerned about the adverse impact of pryderu am effaith andwyol diwygio lles ar welfare reform on equalities in Wales, gydraddoldeb yng Nghymru, gan gynnwys including the implementation of the universal gweithredu’r credyd cynhwysol, gyda chais credit, with a digital-by-default application, digidol di-ofyn, a delir yn fisol mewn ôl- paid monthly in arrears to one member of a daliadau i un aelod o aelwyd. household.

Mark Drakeford: Minister, can you recall Mark Drakeford: Weinidog, a allwch gofio anything more disgraceful than the cheer that unrhyw beth mwy gwarthus na’r floedd o went around the Conservative party lawenydd a aeth o amgylch cynhadledd y conference earlier this week at the blaid Geidwadol yn gynharach yr wythnos announcement that a further £10 billion is to hon yn dilyn y cyhoeddiad bod £10 biliwn yn be robbed from the pockets of some of the mynd i gael ei ddwyn o bocedi rhai o

23 10/10/2012 neediest families in the land? Is it any wonder deuluoedd mwyaf anghenus y wlad? A yw’n that ‘women and children first’ is such a unrhyw syndod bod ‘menywod a phlant yn well-recognised slogan of the Chancellor of gyntaf’ yn slogan mor adnabyddus yng the Exchequer’s approach to cuts in welfare nghyswllt agwedd Canghellor y Trysorlys at benefits? Have you had a chance to consider doriadau mewn budd-daliadau lles? A ydych the most recent analysis of universal credit, wedi cael cyfle i ystyried y dadansoddiad which suggests that the treatment of second diweddaraf o gredyd cynhwysol, sy’n earners within it will have a deleterious awgrymu y bydd y driniaeth o ail enillwyr impact on women earners in Wales? ynddo yn cael effaith niweidiol ar enillwyr benywaidd yng Nghymru?

Jane Hutt: Indeed. In fact, I benefited from a Jane Hutt: Yn wir. Cefais gyfle i elwa o speech by Victoria Winckler from the Bevan glywed araith gan Victoria Winckler o Foundation recently at the Equality 2020 Sefydliad Bevan yn ddiweddar yng conference. She said that she thinks that these nghynhadledd Cydraddoldeb 2020. so-called welfare reforms are a significant Dywedodd ei bod yn credu bod y diwygiadau threat to the progress made towards equality lles, fel y’u gelwir, yn fygythiad sylweddol in the past 30 years. On that point about i’r cynnydd a wnaed at gydraddoldeb yn y 30 second earners, she also said that studies of mlynedd diwethaf. Ar y pwynt am ail how families manage their money suggest enillwyr, dywedodd hefyd fod astudiaethau that women often do not have equal access to ynghylch sut mae teuluoedd yn rheoli eu family cash, are likely to bear the brunt of harian yn awgrymu nad yw menywod yn aml shortfalls in income and that the switch to yn cael mynediad cyfartal at arian parod monthly payments from fortnightly payments teulu, eu bod yn debygol o ysgwyddo baich will have a major impact. Of course, the diffygion mewn incwm a bod y newid o whole scheme is designed to encourage one- daliadau bob pythefnos i daliadau misol yn earner households. That is coupled with the mynd i gael effaith fawr. Wrth gwrs, mae’r squeeze on women’s employment and the cynllun cyfan wedi’i gynllunio i annog cuts in welfare reform that are already on the cartrefi sydd ag un enillydd. Mae hynny’n statute book. You will see the impact of those cyd-fynd â’r wasgfa ar gyflogaeth menywod in the equality impact assessment I published a’r toriadau mewn diwygiadau lles sydd on Monday. eisoes ar y llyfr statud. Byddwch yn gweld effaith y rheini yn yr asesiad o’r effaith ar gydraddoldeb a gyhoeddwyd gennyf ddydd Llun.

Mark Isherwood: In fact, 2.8 million people Mark Isherwood: Mewn gwirionedd, bydd will be better off under universal credit. 2.8 miliwn o bobl yn well eu byd o dan Universal credit—[Interruption.] Universal gredyd cynhwysol. Bydd credyd credit will lift around 900,000 children and cynhwysol—[Torri ar draws.] Bydd credyd adults out of poverty. Those are the cynhwysol yn codi oddeutu 900,000 o blant independently established facts. What ac oedolion allan o dlodi. Mae’r ffeithiau engagement has the Welsh Government had hynny’n rhai a sefydlwyd yn annibynnol. Pa with the UK Government on the design of the gysylltiad y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi’i universal credit, with regard to which the UK chael â Llywodraeth y DU ar ddyluniad y Government has pledged that claimants who credyd cynhwysol, pan mae Llywodraeth y are not yet ready to budget for themselves on DU wedi addo y bydd hawlwyr nad ydynt yn a monthly basis—something you referred barod eto i bennu cyllideb ar eu cyfer eu to—will be protected and assisted onto the hunain ar sail misol—rhywbeth yr ydych new system? wedi cyfeirio ato—yn cael eu diogelu a’u cynorthwyo i ymuno â’r system newydd?

Jane Hutt: Clearly, Ministers have been Jane Hutt: Yn amlwg, mae Gweinidogion engaged with UK Government Ministers, wedi bod mewn cysylltiad â Gweinidogion raising their concerns about these issues and Llywodraeth y DU, gan fynegi eu pryderon

24 10/10/2012 their impact. We need go no further than the am y materion hyn a’u heffaith. Mae angen Institute for Fiscal Studies—and, again, I inni fynd ymhellach na’r Sefydliad refer you to the equality impact assessment— Astudiaethau Cyllid—ac, unwaith eto, fe’ch which makes clear the negative impact these cyfeiriaf at yr asesiad o’r effaith ar welfare reforms are going to have, and in gydraddoldeb—sy’n dangos yn glir yr effaith particular the impact on equality of the negyddol y mae’r diwygiadau lles hyn yn changes in social security payments. In terms mynd i’w cael, ac yn enwedig yr effaith ar of the impact on women—lone parents are gydraddoldeb a ddaw yn sgil y newidiadau i predominantly women—disabled people, daliadau nawdd cymdeithasol. O ran yr people from ethnic minority groups and effaith ar fenywod—menywod sy’n rhieni young people, I share Mark Drakeford’s unigol yn bennaf—pobl anabl, pobl o disgust and horror at the announcement of grwpiau lleiafrifoedd ethnig a phobl ifanc, further cuts to welfare benefits of £10 billion. rwy’n rhannu ffieidd-dod ac arswyd Mark I hope very much that the coalition partners, Drakeford ynghylch y cyhoeddiad o doriadau the Liberal Democrats, stand up to the Tory pellach o £10 biliwn i fudd-daliadau lles. right on this matter. Rwy’n gobeithio’n fawr fod y partneriaid yn y glymblaid, y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, yn sefyll i fyny i asgell dde’r Torïaid ar y mater hwn.

2.15 p.m.

Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog Busnes, Menter, Technoleg a Gwyddoniaeth Questions to the Minister for Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science

The Presiding Officer: I am glad that the Y Llywydd: Rwy’n falch bod y Gweinidog Minister is well enough to be with us today. yn ddigon iach i ymuno â ni heddiw.

Blaenoriaethau Economaidd Economic Priorities

1. Andrew R.T. Davies: A wnaiff y 1. Andrew R.T. Davies: Will the Minister Gweinidog ddatganiad am ei blaenoriaethau make a statement on her economic priorities economaidd ar gyfer Canol De Cymru. for South Wales Central. OAQ(4)0165(BET) OAQ(4)0165(BET)

The Minister for Business, Enterprise, Y Gweinidog Busnes, Menter, Technoleg a Technology and Science (Edwina Hart): Gwyddoniaeth (Edwina Hart): Mae fy My priorities are set out in the programme for mlaenoriaethau wedi’u nodi yn y rhaglen government. lywodraethu.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Thank you, Minister, Andrew R.T. Davies: Diolch ichi, for that answer. On 10 July, I asked the First Weinidog, am yr ateb hwnnw. Ar 10 Minister about the £40 million that your Gorffennaf, gofynnais i’r Prif Weinidog am y department had spent creating the small and £40 miliwn y mae eich adran wedi’i wario yn medium-sized enterprises fund in Wales. creu’r gronfa mentrau bach a chanolig eu Regrettably, some three months later, despite maint yng Nghymru. Yn anffodus, rhyw dri the First Minister saying that he would write mis yn ddiweddarach, er bod y Prif Weinidog to me with information about the businesses wedi dweud y byddai’n ysgrifennu ataf gyda that have benefited in South Wales Central, I gwybodaeth am y busnesau sydd wedi elwa have not had any response. Are you in a yng Nghanol De Cymru, nid wyf wedi cael position today to say how effective the fund unrhyw ymateb ganddo. A ydych mewn has been in South Wales Central and how sefyllfa heddiw i ddweud pa mor effeithiol y many businesses have benefitted from it? mae’r gronfa wedi bod yng Nghanol De Could you maybe prod the First Minister to Cymru a faint o fusnesau sydd wedi elwa

25 10/10/2012 write to me with the answer that he promised ohono? A allech efallai atgoffa’r Prif me on 10 July? Weinidog i ysgrifennu ataf gyda’r ateb yr addawodd i mi ar 10 Gorffennaf?

Edwina Hart: As far as I am aware, we have Edwina Hart: Cyn belled ag yr wyf yn invested just over £1 million into three ymwybodol, rydym wedi buddsoddi ychydig businesses, with the fourth expected to draw dros £1 miliwn mewn tri busnes, a disgwylir some more money down from that specific i’r pedwerydd dynnu mwy o arian o’r gronfa fund. Certainly, in light of your interest, I benodol honno. Yn sicr, yng ngoleuni eich will write a letter to Members about what is diddordeb, byddaf yn ysgrifennu llythyr at yr happening in all the funds, if that would be Aelodau am yr hyn sy’n digwydd yn yr holl helpful. gronfeydd, pe bai hynny o gymorth.

Christine Chapman: Minister, before the Christine Chapman: Weinidog, cyn y recess, I asked how we could boost co- toriad, gofynnais sut y gallem roi hwb i operation between the business and academic gydweithrediad rhwng y sector busnes a’r sectors, and how we could ensure a fair sector academaidd, a sut y gallem sicrhau bod geographic spread of such links. I was cysylltiadau o’r fath yn cael eu lledaenu’n delighted to see the outcomes of one such ddaearyddol mewn modd teg. Roeddwn wrth collaboration between Mountain Ash-based fy modd i weld canlyniadau un Flexicare Medical Limited and Professor cydweithrediad o’r fath rhwng Flexicare Judith Hall of Cardiff University, who have Medical Limited yn Aberpennar a’r Athro come together to develop the Hall Lock to Judith Hall o Brifysgol Caerdydd, sydd wedi prevent wrong-route injections, which is dod at ei gilydd i ddatblygu’r Hall Lock er potentially of global economic and health mwyn atal pigiadau drwy’r llwybr anghywir, significance. Will you join me, Minister, in a allai fod o arwyddocâd byd-eang yn congratulating both parties? Will you ensure economaidd ac o ran iechyd. A wnewch chi that the development of similar links is made ymuno â mi, Weinidog, i longyfarch y rhai a an economic priority through the region and oedd yn gyfrifol? A wnewch chi sicrhau bod across Wales? y gwaith o ddatblygu cysylltiadau tebyg yn cael ei wneud yn flaenoriaeth economaidd trwy’r rhanbarth a ledled Cymru?

Edwina Hart: Naturally, I am pleased to join Edwina Hart: Yn naturiol, mae’n bleser you in congratulating both parties, as I am gennyf ymuno â chi i longyfarch y ddwy sure that the Assembly Chamber and all ochr, ac rwy’n siŵr bod Siambr y Cynulliad Members will, as well. It is important that we a’r holl Aelodau am wneud hynny, hefyd. encourage collaboration between Welsh Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn annog higher education and businesses. Our science cydweithredu rhwng addysg uwch a busnesau strategy also promotes collaboration between yng Nghymru. Mae ein strategaeth us and the education sector. wyddoniaeth hefyd yn hyrwyddo cydweithio rhyngom a’r sector addysg.

Leanne Wood: Minister, I have just had Leanne Wood: Weinidog, rwyf newydd gael sight of a press release issued by Unison golwg ar ddatganiad i’r wasg a gyhoeddwyd Cymru today, which say that it is appalled at gan Unsain Cymru heddiw, sy’n dweud ei Cardiff Council’s decision to introduce a new fod wedi ei ddychryn gan benderfyniad structure, which will cost £1.1 million and Cyngor Caerdydd i gyflwyno strwythur also to outsource information technology, newydd, a fydd yn costio £1.1 miliwn, a human resources and payroll services. Unison hefyd i allanoli gwasanaethau technoleg calls that privatisation in all but name. Plaid gwybodaeth, adnoddau dynol, a’r gyflogres. Cymru agrees that the privatisation of public Mae Unsain yn galw hynny’n breifateiddio, i services is not in the best interests of either bob pwrpas. Mae Plaid Cymru’n cytuno nad local economies or public sector workers. yw preifateiddio gwasanaethau cyhoeddus o Unison has called on the newly Labour- fudd gorau naill ai i economïau lleol na

26 10/10/2012 controlled Cardiff Council to work with gweithwyr y sector cyhoeddus. Mae Unsain trades unions to ensure that good public wedi galw ar Gyngor Caerdydd, sydd o dan sector jobs and services remain where they reolaeth Lafur ac sydd newydd ei ethol, i belong: in the public sector. Plaid Cymru weithio gydag undebau llafur i sicrhau bod says ‘no’ to the privatisation of public swyddi a gwasanaethau da yn y sector services, and we support Unison’s call to cyhoeddus yn aros yn y lle y maent yn Cardiff Council. Do you? perthyn: yn y sector cyhoeddus. Mae Plaid Cymru’n dweud ‘na’ i breifateiddio gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, ac rydym yn cefnogi galwad Unsain ar Gyngor Caerdydd. A ydych chi?

Edwina Hart: I have not had the opportunity Edwina Hart: Nid wyf wedi cael cyfle i to see Unison’s press release. As far as I am weld datganiad i’r wasg Unsain. Cyn belled aware, this may have been an historic ag y gwn i, gallai hyn fod wedi bod yn decision taken before the Labour benderfyniad hanesyddol a gymerwyd cyn i’r administration came to power. My colleague, weinyddiaeth Lafur ddod i rym. Mae fy the Minister for local government, has nghydweithiwr, y Gweinidog dros obviously heard the contribution, and if you lywodraeth leol, yn amlwg wedi clywed y allow us to investigate, one of us will write to cyfraniad, ac os byddwch yn caniatáu i ni you. ymchwilio iddo, bydd un ohonom yn ysgrifennu atoch.

Helpu Busnesau Bach Helping Small Businesses

2. Julie Morgan: Pa gynlluniau sydd gan y 2. Julie Morgan: What plans does the Gweinidog i helpu busnesau bach yng Minister have to help small businesses in Nghymru. OAQ(4)0178(BET) Wales. OAQ(4)0178(BET)

Edwina Hart: Thank you for your question. Edwina Hart: Diolch am eich cwestiwn. Small businesses are the heart and soul, in Mewn sawl ffordd, busnesau bach yw calon many ways, of the Welsh economy, and it is ac enaid economi Cymru, ac mae’n bwysig important that we do as much as we can to ein bod yn gwneud cymaint â phosibl i’w encourage them. The programme for hannog. Mae’r rhaglen lywodraethu yn nodi government sets out my priorities for helping fy mlaenoriaethau i’w helpu. them.

Julie Morgan: I thank the Minister for that Julie Morgan: Diolchaf i’r Gweinidog am yr reply. Does the Minister have any plans to ateb hwnnw. A oes gan y Gweinidog unrhyw increase the capital available to Finance gynlluniau i gynyddu’r cyfalaf sydd ar gael i Wales, possibly via the newly announced UK Cyllid Cymru, o bosibl trwy fanc busnes business bank that is being set up? Will she newydd y DU y cyhoeddwyd y bydd yn cael offer to share the experience of Finance ei sefydlu? A fydd hi’n cynnig rhannu Wales over the past 12 years now that the UK profiad Cyllid Cymru dros y 12 mlynedd Government is setting up a similar body? diwethaf gan fod Llywodraeth y DU bellach yn sefydlu corff tebyg?

Edwina Hart: Finance Wales is currently Edwina Hart: Ar hyn o bryd, mae Cyllid managing more than £220 million of funding Cymru yn rheoli mwy na £220 miliwn o provided by us to help it to support gyllid a ddarperir gennym i’w helpu i gefnogi businesses. In the next few weeks, I will be busnesau. Yn ystod yr wythnosau nesaf, discussing with Finance Wales the current byddaf yn trafod â Chyllid Cymru performance of those funds, and I would be berfformiad presennol y cronfeydd hynny, a happy to update Members on any lessons that byddwn yn hapus i roi’r wybodaeth it may have learned in the past few years. ddiweddaraf i Aelodau am unrhyw wersi y

27 10/10/2012

With regard to the business bank, we await gallai fod wedi eu dysgu yn ystod y the detail on that from the UK Government. blynyddoedd diwethaf. O ran y banc busnes, rydym yn aros am y manylion ynghylch hynny gan Lywodraeth y DU.

Byron Davies: I was interested in the first Byron Davies: Roedd gennyf ddiddordeb yn part of your answer to the Member for rhan gyntaf eich ateb i’r Aelod dros Ogledd Cardiff North, Minister. I raised a key issue Caerdydd, Weinidog. Codais fater allweddol on support for small and medium-sized ar gymorth i fusnesau bach a chanolig eu businesses in Wales with the First Minister maint yng Nghymru gyda’r Prif Weinidog yesterday, who was less than forthcoming ddoe, a oedd yn eithaf amharod i drafod with the Government’s plans, policies or, cynlluniau neu bolisïau’r Llywodraeth, neu, indeed, anything that you had delivered. I yn wir, unrhyw beth yr ydych wedi ei suggested that Welsh indigenous businesses ddarparu. Awgrymais fod busnesau cynhenid have got so fed up with Government inaction Cymru wedi cael cymaint o lond bol o in Wales that they are moving across the ddiffyg gweithredu’r Llywodraeth yng border to England. Perhaps you could be Nghymru nes eu bod yn symud dros y ffin i somewhat more forthcoming with a Wales- Loegr. Efallai y gallech fod ychydig yn fwy related response. parod i roi ymateb sy’n gysylltiedig â Chymru.

The Presiding Officer: Order. Are you Y Llywydd: Trefn. A ydych ar fin gofyn coming to a question? cwestiwn?

Byron Davies: Yes. As I said yesterday, to Byron Davies: Ydw. Fel y dywedais ddoe, er my surprise, it is apparently much easier to syndod imi, mae’n debyg ei bod yn llawer access funding for an English company haws cael mynediad at gyllid ar gyfer cwmni moving into Wales than for a Welsh firm o Loegr sy’n symud i Gymru nag y mae i looking to expand. Would you care to gwmni o Gymru sydd am ehangu. A fyddech comment on that, please? yn dymuno gwneud sylwadau ar hynny, os gwelwch yn dda?

Edwina Hart: I would like some evidence to Edwina Hart: Hoffwn gael rhywfaint o back up the assertion that you have made in dystiolaeth i gefnogi’r honiad yr ydych the Chamber, but I would be more than wedi’i wneud yn y Siambr, ond byddwn yn happy then to investigate it fully if such an fwy na hapus wedyn i ymchwilio iddo’n issue is drawn to my attention. There are llawn os oes mater o’r fath yn cael ei ddwyn issues to do with what the banks lend to i’m sylw. Mae yna faterion yn ymwneud â’r businesses, but I can tell you that, as far as hyn y mae’r banciau’n ei fenthyca i fusnesau, we are concerned, we have set up a £40 ond gallaf ddweud wrthych, cyn belled ag yr million Wales SME fund and a £6 million ydym ni yn y cwestiwn, rydym wedi sefydlu microbusinesses fund, and we are putting cronfa gwerth £40 miliwn ar gyfer busnesau Government money where it needs to go to bach a chanolig eu maint yng Nghymru a help businesses to be successful in Wales. chronfa gwerth £6 miliwn ar gyfer microfusnesau, ac rydym yn rhoi arian y Llywodraeth lle mae angen iddo fynd i helpu busnesau i fod yn llwyddiannus yng Nghymru.

Byron Davies: Thank you for that. Given Byron Davies: Diolch i chi am hynny. O your answer and your confidence that your ystyried eich ateb a’ch hyder bod eich Government is doing everything possible in Llywodraeth yn gwneud popeth posibl yng Wales to boost the private sector and support Nghymru i roi hwb i’r sector preifat a SMEs, can you outline how many private chefnogi busnesau bach a chanolig eu maint, sector businesses have received investment a allwch amlinellu faint o fusnesau yn y

28 10/10/2012 from the regeneration investment fund for sector preifat sydd wedi cael buddsoddiad Wales? Can you tell us how you see the gan gronfa buddsoddi Cymru mewn future of that? adfywio? A allwch ddweud wrthym sut rydych yn gweld dyfodol hynny?

Edwina Hart: In my response to Andrew Edwina Hart: Yn fy ymateb i Andrew R.T. R.T. Davies, I said that I would look at all Davies, dywedais y byddwn yn edrych ar yr funds that we have been involved in with my holl gronfeydd yr ydym wedi bod yn portfolio to give him an indication of the gysylltiedig â nhw yn fy mhortffolio i roi numbers of jobs protected and the level of syniad iddo o niferoedd y swyddi a investment made. I might not be able to go ddiogelwyd a lefel y buddsoddiad a wnaed. into detail on some elements because of Efallai na fyddaf yn gallu mynd i fanylder ar commercial confidentiality, but I will rai elfennau oherwydd cyfrinachedd certainly pick up the further point that you masnachol, ond byddaf yn sicr yn codi’r made on this. pwynt arall a wnaethoch ar y mater hwn.

Alun Ffred Jones: Mae gan adroddiad yr Alun Ffred Jones: Professor Brian Morgan’s Athro Brian Morgan ar drethi busnes nifer o report on business rates makes several argymhellion a fyddai o fudd mawr i recommendations that would be of benefit to fusnesau bychan. A ydych yn bwriadu small businesses. Do you intend to expand ehangu’r cynllun cymorth trethi busnes yn y the business rate relief scheme in future, and dyfodol a phryd y byddwch yn dod ag when will you be bringing recommendations argymhellion gerbron y Cynulliad? to the Assembly?

Edwina Hart: Professor Brian Morgan’s Edwina Hart: Mae adroddiad yr Athro Brian report has engendered a lot of interest. As a Morgan wedi ennyn llawer o ddiddordeb. O result, he has had to go out for further ganlyniad, bu’n rhaid iddo gynnal discussions, and we are receiving further trafodaethau pellach, ac rydym yn cael submissions from various areas about what cyflwyniadau pellach o ardaloedd amrywiol more we should do as a Government. I will am beth arall y dylem ei wneud fel make a formal response to the Chamber in Llywodraeth. Byddaf yn ymateb yn ffurfiol due course. i’r Siambr maes o law.

Alun Ffred Jones: Un mater arall sy’n Alun Ffred Jones: Another issue that is broblemus i fusnesau bychan yw’r broses o problematic for small businesses is the ailbrisio gwerth ardrethol busnesau. Mae rhai revaluation process for businesses’ rateable busnesau, yn enwedig yn y sector twristiaeth, value. Some businesses, especially in the yn cael eu hasesu ar eu helw potensial, ond tourism sector, are assessed based on their nid yw hynny’n wir am y rhan fwyaf o potential profit, but that is not true for the fusnesau. Oni ddylai pob trefn felly fod yn majority of businesses. Should there not be gyson? Os yw elw potensial yn llinyn mesur i consistency in all such arrangements? If un busnes, oni ddylai hynny fod yn wir am potential profit is a yardstick for one bob un busnes? business, should it not be for all businesses?

Edwina Hart: You raise some interesting Edwina Hart: Rydych yn codi rhai pwyntiau points about revaluation and what we need to diddorol am ailbrisio a’r hyn sydd angen inni do. I am currently discussing this and will ei wneud. Rwy’n trafod hyn a byddaf yn ei discuss it further with Professor Brian drafod ymhellach â’r Athro Brian Morgan, Morgan, because I might wish to make a oherwydd mae’n bosibl y byddaf yn dymuno statement in this regard in the autumn. gwneud datganiad ar y mater hwn yn yr hydref.

Aled Roberts: Minister, I am sure that there Aled Roberts: Weinidog, rwy’n siŵr bod is cross-party support for Jobs Growth Wales, cefnogaeth drawsbleidiol ar gyfer Twf but many small businesses are suggesting that Swyddi Cymru, ond mae llawer o fusnesau

29 10/10/2012 there is conflict between the criteria for Jobs bach yn awgrymu nad oes gwrthdaro rhwng y Growth Wales and the work programme. meini prawf ar gyfer Twf Swyddi Cymru a’r Have you had any discussions with the UK rhaglen waith. A ydych chi wedi cael unrhyw Government regarding the mismatch between drafodaethau â Llywodraeth y DU ynghylch certain elements of the two programmes? y diffyg cyfatebiaeth rhwng rhai elfennau o’r ddwy raglen?

Edwina Hart: I will certainly pick up the Edwina Hart: Byddaf yn sicr yn codi’r point now that you have raised the matter pwynt yn awr eich bod wedi codi’r mater with me. gyda mi.

Ardal Fenter Caerdydd Cardiff Enterprise Zone

3. Jenny Rathbone: A wnaiff y Gweinidog 3. Jenny Rathbone: Will the Minister roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am Ardal provide an update on progress on the Cardiff Fenter Caerdydd. OAQ(4)0173(BET) Enterprise Zone. OAQ(4)0173(BET)

Edwina Hart: All enterprise zone boards Edwina Hart: Mae pob bwrdd ardal fenter have submitted their blueprints for the wedi cyflwyno eu glasbrintiau ar gyfer development of each enterprise zone, which I datblygu pob ardal fenter, ac rwyf wrthi’n eu am currently considering. hystyried.

Jenny Rathbone: People in my constituency Jenny Rathbone: Mae pobl yn fy etholaeth i are anxiously awaiting the development of a yn disgwyl yn eiddgar am y gwaith o new bus station adjacent to and north of the ddatblygu gorsaf bws newydd ger yr orsaf railway station. What part does an integrated reilffordd ac i’r gogledd ohoni. Pa ran mae bus and railway transport system play in the system drafnidiaeth bws a rheilffordd success of the enterprise zone? integredig yn chwarae yn llwyddiant yr ardal fenter?

Edwina Hart: Better integrated bus and rail Edwina Hart: Mae gwasanaethau bws a services, coupled with improved pedestrian rheilffordd integredig well, ynghyd â gallu movement, are seen as a major goal for the cerddwyr i symud yn well, yn cael eu gweld strategic development of the area and the fel nod pwysig ar gyfer datblygiad strategol attraction of new business investment and job yr ardal ac i ddenu buddsoddiad newydd gan creation. My colleague, Carl Sargeant, the fusnesau a chreu swyddi. Mae fy Minister for transport, and I are having nghydweithiwr, Carl Sargeant, y Gweinidog regular discussions about how we can deal dros drafnidiaeth, a minnau yn cael with matters to do with transport arising in trafodaethau rheolaidd ar sut y gallwn fynd the enterprise zones. i’r afael â materion yn ymwneud â thrafnidiaeth sy’n codi yn yr ardaloedd menter.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Last week, we had the Andrew R.T. Davies: Yr wythnos diwethaf, sad news that the AA was going to relocate cawsom y newyddion trist bod yr AA yn 400 jobs out of Cardiff city centre, and you mynd i symud 400 o swyddi o ganol dinas have kindly kept Members informed of that Caerdydd, ac rydych wedi bod yn garedig situation. Regrettably, we have lost the bid wrth roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i Aelodau for the green investment bank. We have had am y sefyllfa honno. Yn anffodus, methiant the plans for the central business district, and oedd ein cais ar gyfer y banc buddsoddi Cardiff has been identified as an enterprise gwyrdd. Rydym wedi cael y cynlluniau ar zone, yet we are still losing jobs from the gyfer yr ardal busnes canolog, ac mae centre of Cardiff to areas with the same Caerdydd wedi cael ei nodi fel ardal fenter, economic footprint, such as Newcastle in the ac eto rydym yn parhau i golli swyddi o north-east of England. It does not seem as ganol Caerdydd i’r ardaloedd sydd â’r un ôl

30 10/10/2012 though these proposals are coming forward at troed economaidd, fel Newcastle yng the rate of knots that we would like to see. ngogledd-ddwyrain Lloegr. Nid yw’n What confidence can my constituents in ymddangos bod y cynigion hyn yn cael eu Cardiff have that these are being progressed cyflwyno ar y raddfa y byddem yn hoffi ei with the council and that we will start to see gweld. Pa hyder all fy etholwyr i yng some tangible results on the ground? Nghaerdydd ei gael bod y cynigion hyn yn cael eu datblygu gyda’r cyngor ac y byddwn yn dechrau gweld rhai canlyniadau cadarn ar lawr gwlad?

Edwina Hart: We have got the final plans in Edwina Hart: Rydym wedi cael y cynlluniau from the Cardiff enterprise zone board about terfynol gan fwrdd ardal fenter Caerdydd o how we intend to deal with the enterprise ran sut rydym yn bwriadu delio â’r ardal zone in Cardiff, and we are having regular fenter yng Nghaerdydd, ac rydym yn cael discussions with the local authority over what trafodaethau rheolaidd â’r awdurdod lleol am it sees as its aims for the enterprise zone and yr hyn y mae’n gweld fel ei nodau ar gyfer yr its periphery. I very much hope that I will be ardal fenter a’i hymylon. Rwy’n gobeithio’n able to come to the Chamber with a full fawr y byddaf yn gallu dod i’r Siambr â statement on the development of these zones datganiad llawn ar ddatblygiad y parthau hyn within the next few weeks. o fewn yr wythnosau nesaf.

In addition, even though jobs are going Hefyd, er bod swyddi’n mynd oherwydd because of the national circumstances of amgylchiadau cenedlaethol cwmnïau, mae companies, jobs are still coming in. swyddi’n parhau i ddod i mewn.

Leanne Wood: Cardiff Council under the Leanne Wood: O dan y weinyddiaeth previous administration worked closely with flaenorol, gweithiodd Cyngor Caerdydd yn the Welsh Government to make the best use agos gyda Llywodraeth Cymru i wneud y of the enterprise zone in developing plans for defnydd gorau o’r ardal fenter i ddatblygu the Cardiff business district, but we now hear cynlluniau ar gyfer ardal fusnes Caerdydd, that the new Labour administration has ond rydym yn awr yn clywed bod y placed those plans under review. How weinyddiaeth Lafur newydd wedi penderfynu confident are you that the business district adolygu’r cynlluniau hynny. Pa mor hyderus will go ahead in the Cardiff enterprise zone? ydych y bydd yr ardal fusnes yn mynd yn ei blaen yn ardal fenter Caerdydd?

Edwina Hart: I am confident that my Edwina Hart: Rwy’n hyderus y bydd fy enterprise zone will go ahead, and that is my ardal fenter yn mynd yn ei blaen, a dyna fy responsibility. We need to make it quite clear nghyfrifoldeb i. Mae angen inni wneud yn that enterprise zones are run by the Welsh hollol glir bod ardaloedd menter yn cael eu Government. They take priority in our rhedeg gan Lywodraeth Cymru. Maent yn investment, and local authorities are duty- cymryd blaenoriaeth yn ein buddsoddiad, ac bound to work in partnership with us to mae gan awdurdodau lleol ddyletswydd i deliver what we require, which is jobs. weithio mewn partneriaeth â ni i sicrhau’r hyn sydd ei angen arnom, sef swyddi.

Eluned Parrott: Thank you, Minister, for Eluned Parrott: Diolch i chi, Weinidog, am those answers. Obviously, the creation of the yr atebion hynny. Yn amlwg, gallai creu’r central business district, with office space ardal fusnes ganolog, gyda swyddfeydd a and a convention centre, could have been a chanolfan gynhadleddau, fod wedi bod yn real boost to the enterprise zone in Cardiff. hwb gwirioneddol i’r ardal fenter yng Minister, your review of the failure to secure Nghaerdydd. Weinidog, soniodd eich the green investment bank quoted a lack of adolygiad o’r methiant i sicrhau’r banc grade-A office space as a critical factor. In buddsoddi gwyrdd am ddiffyg swyddfeydd scrapping these plans, Russell Goodway of gradd-A fel ffactor allweddol. Wrth gael

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Cardiff Council stated that there was already gwared ar y cynlluniau hyn, dywedodd enough office space, but either there is, or Russell Goodway o Gyngor Caerdydd fod there is not. Who is right, you or Russell yna eisoes ddigon o swyddfeydd, ond mae Goodway? hynny naill ai’n gywir neu’n anghywir. Pwy sy’n iawn, chi neu Russell Goodway?

Edwina Hart: I have asked the enterprise Edwina Hart: Rwyf wedi gofyn i’r bwrdd board to look at this. A good standard of menter edrych ar hyn. Mae safon dda o office accommodation is a priority. If I may, I swyddfeydd yn flaenoriaeth. Os caf, rwyf am will refer to the feedback that we had on our gyfeirio at yr adborth a gawsom ar ein cais ar bid for the green investment bank. There gyfer y banc buddsoddi gwyrdd. Roedd were issues to do with the recruitment and materion yn ymwneud â recriwtio a chadw retention of staff as part of that, and one staff fel rhan o hynny, ac un rheswm nad reason we did not stand a chance with that oedd gennym lawer o siawns o fod yn project was the finance transactions llwyddiannus gyda’r prosiect hwnnw oedd yr ecosystem brought in Frankfurt, which we ecosystem trafodion ariannol a ddaeth â and 20 other areas were not eligible for. Frankfurt i mewn, ond nad oeddem ni na 20 o ardaloedd eraill yn gymwys ar ei gyfer.

Let me make it absolutely clear that we do Gadewch imi ei gwneud yn gwbl glir fod require good-quality office space. That is an angen swyddfeydd o ansawdd da arnom. Mae issue, and it is something that is requested hynny’n broblem, ac mae’n rhywbeth y when we speak to companies in London that gofynnir amdano pan fyddwn yn siarad â might considering relocating. chwmnïau yn Llundain a allai fod yn ystyried adleoli.

Y Diwydiant Amaethyddol The Agriculture Industry

4. Yr Arglwydd Elis-Thomas: A wnaiff y 4. Lord Elis-Thomas: Will the Minister make Gweinidog ddatganiad am flaenoriaethau ei a statement on her department’s priorities for hadran ar gyfer y diwydiant amaethyddol yng the agricultural industry in Wales. Nghymru. OAQ(4)0171(BET) OAQ(4)0171(BET)

Y Dirprwy Weinidog Amaethyddiaeth, The Deputy Minister for Agriculture, Bwyd, Pysgodfeydd a Rhaglenni Food, Fisheries and European Ewropeaidd (Alun Davies): Fy mhrif Programmes (Alun Davies): My main flaenoriaeth ar hyn o bryd yw ei gynnal ac priority at this time is to support it and to win ennill ar ran ffermwyr Cymru yn ystod y on behalf of Welsh farmers during the trafodaethau am y polisi amaethyddol negotiations on the common agricultural cyffredin. policy.

Yr Arglwydd Elis-Thomas: Efallai nad Lord Elis-Thomas: Perhaps he is unaware yw’n ymwybodol o hyn ond nid wyf yn siopa of the fact that I do not shop very often in yn aml yn Sainsbury’s, ond ar ymweliad Sainsbury’s, but on a recent visit to diweddar â Sainsbury’s yn Wrecsam, cefais y Sainsbury’s in Wrexham, I had the pleasure pleser o brynu cig oen o Gymru ac arno logo of purchasing Welsh lamb that featured the Hybu Cig Cymru a chyfeiriad at gynllun logo of Hybu Cig Cymru and a reference to a penodol i gefnogi ffermwyr ifanc. Hoffwn specific scheme to support young farmers. I lyngyfarch Hybu Cig Cymru ar yr arweiniad want to congratulate Hybu Cig Cymru on this hwn a gofyn i’r Dirprwy Weinidog pa lead that it has shown and I ask the Deputy arweiniad tebyg sydd ganddo ymhellach i Minister what further he can do to ensure, sicrhau, o ystyried sefyllfa bresennol y given the current position of the lamb farchnad cig oen, fod cig oen Cymru yn industry, that Welsh lamb continues to be parhau i fod yn gystadleuol yng Nghymru ac competitive in Wales and on a global level? yn fyd-eang?

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Alun Davies: Rwy’n cytuno â’r pwyntiau y Alun Davies: I agree with the points that mae Dafydd Elis-Thomas wedi’u gwneud. Dafydd Elis-Thomas has made. Hybu Cig Mae Hybu Cig Cymru wedi dangos Cymru has shown clear leadership in the arweinyddiaeth glir i’r sector ac wedi bod yn sector and has been successful in promoting llwyddiannus wrth hybu’r sector a’i and developing the sector. You will be aware ddatblygu. Byddwch yn ymwybodol fy mod i that I have just returned from Milan in Italy newydd fod ym Milan yn yr Eidal gyda Hybu with Hybu Cig Cymru to promote the Welsh Cig Cymru i hybu’r farchnad o Gymru yno, a lamb market out there, and I will be byddaf yn teithio i Baris gyda’r corff hwnnw travelling to Paris with that organisation in a ymhen rhai wythnosau i hybu allforion cig few weeks’ time to promote Welsh lamb oen o Gymru. exports.

Rwy’n ymwybodol bod archfarchnadoedd I am aware that supermarkets throughout drwy Gymru a gweddill y Deyrnas Unedig Wales and the rest of the UK have been wedi bod yn hybu cig oen o Gymru, a chredaf promoting Welsh lamb, and I believe that the fod y gwaith a wnaed i’w weld yn glir yn y work that has been carried out is clear for all cynnydd yn yr allforion. Byddwn yn parhau i to see in the increase in exports. We will gefnogi Hybu Cig Cymru yn ei waith. continue to support Hybu Cig Cymru’s work.

Russell George: We have seen in the news Russell George: Rydym wedi gweld yn y this week that harvest yields in the UK have newyddion yr wythnos hon fod cynhaeafau been significantly damaged by the poor yn y DU wedi cael eu difrodi yn sylweddol weather conditions, and the weather patterns gan y tywydd gwael, a bydd y patrymau that we have experienced over the past few tywydd yr ydym wedi eu profi dros y years will be with us for the foreseeable blynyddoedd diwethaf gyda ni am y dyfodol future, as Atlantic warming continues. What rhagweladwy, wrth i gynhesu’r Iwerydd discussions have you had with the farming barhau. Pa drafodaethau ydych wedi’u cael unions, and with colleagues in the â’r undebau ffermio, cydweithwyr yn Adran Department for Environment, Food and Rural yr Amgylchedd, Bwyd a Materion Gwledig Affairs and the other devolved a’r gweinyddiaethau datganoledig eraill administrations regarding the future ynghylch datblygu agronomeg yn y DU yn y development of agronomy in the UK, and dyfodol, a sut y gallwn ddefnyddio’r how we can best use that technology to dechnoleg honno yn y ffordd orau i liniaru mitigate the effects of climate change on our effeithiau newid yn yr hinsawdd ar ein food supplies? cyflenwadau bwyd?

Alun Davies: We hold a number of Alun Davies: Rydym yn cynnal nifer o conversations with the farming unions and sgyrsiau â’r undebau ffermio ac eraill, a others, and with ministerial teams from all chyda thimau gweinidogol o bob rhan o’r parts of the United Kingdom on a regular Deyrnas Unedig, yn rheolaidd. Mae’r sefyllfa basis. The current situation is a cause for real bresennol yn destun pryder gwirioneddol, o concern, in respect of the short-term issues ran y materion tymor byr yn ymwneud â about food pricing and food scarcity at phrisiau bwyd a phrinder bwyd ar hyn o bryd. present. However, our overriding concern at Fodd bynnag, ein prif bryder ar hyn o bryd, the moment, as I said in my initial reply to fel y dywedais yn fy ateb cychwynnol i Dafydd Elis-Thomas, is to ensure that we Dafydd Elis-Thomas, yw sicrhau bod have an overall financial framework over the gennym fframwaith ariannol cyffredinol dros next seven years that will sustain food y saith mlynedd nesaf a fydd yn cynnal production in an environmentally friendly cynhyrchu bwyd mewn ffordd eco-gyfeillgar way for farmers throughout Wales, the UK i ffermwyr ledled Cymru, y DU a gweddill yr and the rest of the European Union. Undeb Ewropeaidd.

2.30 p.m.

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Adolygu Ardrethi Busnes Business Rates Review

5. Mick Antoniw: A wnaiff y Gweinidog 5. Mick Antoniw: Will the Minister make a ddatganiad am yr adroddiad diweddar, statement on the recent Business Rates Wales Adolygu Ardrethi Busnes Cymru: Cymell Review: Incentivising Growth. Twf. OAQ(4)0169(BET) OAQ(4)0169(BET)

Edwina Hart: I refer you to my recent letter Edwina Hart: Fe’ch cyfeiriaf at fy llythyr dated 26 September, in which I state that I diweddar dyddiedig 26 Medi, lle rwy’n will be making a full response shortly. datgan y byddaf yn rhoi ymateb llawn cyn bo hir.

Mick Antoniw: I had the great pleasure of Mick Antoniw: Cefais bleser mawr gwmni Professor Brian Morgan’s company recently yr Athro Brian Morgan yn ddiweddar pan when he visited small businesses in ymwelodd â busnesau bach ym Mhontypridd Pontypridd to discuss their issues. Two of the i drafod eu problemau. Dau o’r materion a issues raised were the lack of a relationship godwyd oedd y diffyg perthynas rhwng between business rates and the turnover of ardrethi busnes a throsiant busnesau, a’r businesses, and the competition from out-of- gystadleuaeth gan gwmnïau manwerthu y tu town retailing. Could you give a statement on allan i’r dref. A allech roi datganiad ar yr the timetable for the next stage of the review amserlen ar gyfer cam nesaf yr adolygiad a’r and consultation on that review? ymgynghoriad ar yr adolygiad hwnnw?

Edwina Hart: I am aware of the concerns of Edwina Hart: Rwy’n ymwybodol o business and I am tremendously interested in bryderon busnesau ac mae gennyf Professor Morgan’s report. There has been ddiddordeb aruthrol yn adroddiad yr Athro particular interest from people in town Morgan. Cafwyd diddordeb arbennig gan centres, which have been a priority, as bobl yng nghanol trefi, sydd wedi bod yn outlined by my colleague Huw Lewis and the flaenoriaeth, fel yr amlinellwyd gan fy Enterprise and Business Committee in its nghydweithiwr, Huw Lewis ac adroddiad y report. During the next few weeks, I will Pwyllgor Menter a Busnes. Yn ystod yr meet with Professor Brian Morgan and I will ychydig wythnosau nesaf, byddaf yn cyfarfod then make a statement on all of the â’r Athro Brian Morgan ac yna byddaf yn recommendations to the Chamber. gwneud datganiad ar bob un o’r argymhellion i’r Siambr.

Janet Finch-Saunders: The review makes Janet Finch-Saunders: Mae’r adolygiad yn several recommendations relating to the gwneud sawl argymhelliad yn ymwneud â’r charity retail sector, including the suggestion sector manwerthu elusennol, gan gynnwys yr to limit the business rate relief to 50% of awgrym i gyfyngu ar y rhyddhad ardrethi those larger charity shops trading in new busnes i 50% ar gyfer y siopau elusennol goods. The British Heart Foundation is one mwyaf hynny sy’n masnachu mewn nwyddau of several charities that have responded to newydd. Mae Sefydliad Prydeinig y Galon yn Professor Brian Morgan’s call for evidence un o sawl elusen sydd wedi ymateb i alwad with submissions. Some have now raised yr Athro Brian Morgan am dystiolaeth gyda concerns that they are not too convinced that chyflwyniadau. Mae rhai nawr wedi codi their representations have been pryderon nad ydynt yn argyhoeddedig bod eu acknowledged in the body of the report in sylwadau wedi cael eu cydnabod yng nghorff terms of his response. Will you acknowledge yr adroddiad o ran ei ymateb. A wnewch chi these representations and do you intend to gydnabod y sylwadau hyn ac a ydych yn undertake a full and open consultation with bwriadu cynnal ymgynghoriad llawn ac the charity retail sector, as per agored gyda’r sector manwerthu elusennol, recommendation 15 of this review? yn unol ag argymhelliad 15 o’r adolygiad hwn?

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Edwina Hart: As I indicated, I will respond Edwina Hart: Fel yr awgrymais, byddaf yn to the recommendations in due course. I am ymateb i’r argymhellion maes o law. Rwy’n well aware of the further representations that ymwybodol o’r sylwadau pellach a wnaed i’r have been made to Professor Morgan from Athro Morgan gan y sector elusennol. Fodd the charitable sector. However, I am sure that bynnag, rwy’n siŵr y bydd gennych you will all be interested to know that we ddiddordeb gwybod ein bod hefyd wedi cael have also had representations from other sylwadau gan fanwerthwyr eraill, a oedd yn retailers, which made the point to us that they nodi eu bod hefyd yn rhedeg busnesau ac yn are also running businesses and are paying talu cyflogau staff ac yn y blaen. Felly, mae staff wages and so on. So, there is a balance angen sicrhau cydbwysedd yma, ond gallaf to be struck here, but I can assure you that eich sicrhau y bydd hon yn broses dryloyw. this will be a transparent process.

Llyr Huws Gruffydd: Yn Ebrill 2010, Llyr Huws Gruffydd: In April 2012, the cyhoeddodd Llywodraeth yr Alban gynllun Scottish Government announced a business rhyddhad trethi busnes i’r sector ynni rate relief scheme for the renewable energy adnewyddadwy, gan gynnig hyd at 100% o sector, which offers a reduction of up to ostyngiad er mwyn hybu’r sector honno. 100% in order to promote that sector. I feel Rwy’n teimlo, o glywed eich atebion that perhaps, having heard your previous blaenorol, na wnewch chi ddweud eich bod answers, you will not be saying that you are chi’n barod i fabwysiadu argymhelliad yr willing to adopt Professor Brian Morgan’s Athro Brian Morgan tan i chi wneud recommendation until you make an cyhoeddiad yn ddiweddarach efallai, ond a announcement later on, but can you tell me allwch chi ddweud wrthyf a fuasech chi’n whether you would see value in adopting gweld gwerth mewn ystyried mabwysiadu such an approach in Wales? rhywbeth tebyg yng Nghymru?

Edwina Hart: Yes, my colleague who has Edwina Hart: Byddwn. Gwenodd John responsibilities for these issues, John Griffiths, fy nghydweithiwr sydd â Griffiths, smiled when he saw that chyfrifoldebau dros y materion hyn, pan recommendation in Professor Morgan’s welodd yr argymhelliad hwnnw yn adroddiad report, so there are ongoing discussions on yr Athro Morgan, felly mae trafodaethau yn that on which I will advise Assembly mynd rhagddynt ar hynny a byddaf yn Members when I respond in full to the cynghori Aelodau’r Cynulliad ar hynny pan recommendations. fyddaf yn ymateb yn llawn i’r argymhellion.

Peter Black: We all look forward to your Peter Black: Rydym i gyd yn edrych ymlaen response to the review. You will also know at eich ymateb i’r adolygiad. Byddwch hefyd that there is pressure from the small business yn gwybod bod pwysau gan y sector sector to extend the existing rate relief busnesau bach i ymestyn y cynllun rhyddhad scheme and yet there is no money in the ardrethi presennol ac eto nid oes unrhyw forthcoming budget to pay for that. Will you arian yn y gyllideb sydd ar y gweill i dalu am look at that in particular? What money is in hynny. A wnewch chi edrych ar hynny yn the budget to implement the benodol? Pa arian sydd yn y gyllideb i recommendations that you are prepared to weithredu’r argymhellion rydych yn barod accept? i’w derbyn?

Edwina Hart: There will be budgetary Edwina Hart: Bydd ystyriaethau cyllidebol i considerations to Professor Brian Morgan’s argymhellion yr Athro Brian Morgan os caiff recommendations if any or all are accepted, rhai neu bob un ohonynt eu derbyn, a bydd and there will be ongoing discussions with trafodaethau parhaus â’r Gweinidog Cyllid the Minister for Finance in that regard. yn hynny o beth.

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Y Diwydiant Ymwelwyr The Tourism Industry

6. Alun Ffred Jones: A wnaiff y Gweinidog 6. Alun Ffred Jones: Will the Minister make ddatganiad am ymdrechion y Llywodraeth i a statement on the Government’s efforts to hybu’r diwydiant ymwelwyr. promote the tourism industry. OAQ(4)0179(BET) OAQ(4)0179(BET)

Edwina Hart: The programme for Edwina Hart: Mae’r rhaglen lywodraethu yn government sets out our proposals to boost nodi ein cynigion i hybu twristiaeth ledled tourism across Wales. Cymru.

Alun Ffred Jones: O ganlyniad i’r haf Alun Ffred Jones: Due to this year’s wet gwlyb, mae nifer o fusnesau ac atyniadau yn summer, a number of businesses and y maes ymwelwyr a thwristiaeth wedi cael attractions in the tourism and visitor sector cyfnod heriol iawn. Un cam ymarferol i have faced a very challenging time. One geisio helpu fyddai rhoi gwell arwyddion at practical step to assist them would be to yr atyniadau hyn ar ein ffyrdd a’n traffyrdd. provide better signposting to such attractions A wnewch chi, ar y cyd â’r Gweinidog sydd â on our roads and motorways. Will you, along chyfrifoldeb am drafnidiaeth, ddiwygio’r with the Minister with responsibility for rheolau presennol a pha bryd y cawn ni transport, revise the current regulations and glywed am hynny? when will we be informed about that?

Edwina Hart: As you raise that issue with Edwina Hart: Gan eich bod wedi codi’r me, I will certainly discuss it with my mater hwnnw gyda mi, byddaf yn sicr yn ei colleague the Minister for transport and drafod â’m cydweithiwr y Gweinidog report back to the Assembly. trafnidiaeth, ac yn adrodd yn ôl i’r Cynulliad.

Rebecca Evans: In his statement on the Rebecca Evans: Yn ei ddatganiad ar y flooding in Ceredigion earlier this year, the llifogydd yng Ngheredigion yn gynharach Minister for Local Government and eleni, dywedodd y Gweinidog Llywodraeth Communities said that Visit Wales would be Leol a Chymunedau y byddai Croeso Cymru contacting tourism businesses in the area to yn cysylltu â busnesau twristiaeth yn yr ardal see what kind of support could be offered to i weld pa fath o gymorth y gellir ei gynnig them over the summer. Could you provide us iddynt dros yr haf. A allech chi roi’r with an update on those discussions and on wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i ni ar y trafodaethau the support that was offered? hynny ac ar y cymorth a gynigiwyd?

Edwina Hart: My officials and I have met Edwina Hart: Mae fy swyddogion a mi wedi with several tourism businesses in Ceredigion cwrdd â nifer o fusnesau twristiaeth yng that were hit by floods. I also met with the Ngheredigion a gafodd eu heffeithio gan leader of Ceredigion County Council to lifogydd. Cyfarfûm ag arweinydd Cyngor Sir discuss the impact of the floods in the area. I Ceredigion i drafod effaith y llifogydd yn yr have also had the opportunity to visit other ardal. Rwyf hefyd wedi cael cyfle i ymweld â businesses. I visited Cambrian Printers in busnesau eraill. Ymwelais â Cambrian Aberystwyth with Elin Jones to look at the Printers yn Aberystwyth gydag Elin Jones i impact on business there. The clear message edrych ar yr effaith ar fusnes yno. Y neges from business was that they needed glir gan fusnesau oedd bod angen cymorth marketing support to get their message across marchnata arnynt i gyfleu eu neges bod y that mid Wales is open for business. We will canolbarth ar agor i fusnes. Byddwn yn work with the tourism industry on this. For gweithio gyda’r diwydiant twristiaeth ar hyn. example, we have worked with Ceredigion Er enghraifft, rydym wedi gweithio gyda council on an e-mail campaign, and we are chyngor Ceredigion ar ymgyrch e-bost, ac working with partners in mid Wales on a co- rydym yn gweithio gyda phartneriaid yn y ordinated public relations and social media canolbarth ar gysylltiadau cyhoeddus programme. cydlynol a rhaglen cyfryngau cymdeithasol.

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Darren Millar: One part of the tourism Darren Millar: Un rhan o’r diwydiant industry that is more resilient to poor weather twristiaeth sy’n fwy abl i wrthsefyll tywydd is faith tourism, because people visit gwael yw twristiaeth ffydd, gan fod pobl yn churches, chapels and faith trails for all sorts ymweld ag eglwysi, capeli a llwybrau ffydd of different reasons other than the weather. am bob math o wahanol resymau heblaw’r Could you provide us with an update on the tywydd. A allech chi roi’r wybodaeth faith tourism action plan, which I know you ddiweddaraf i ni ar y cynllun gweithredu have been promoting as Minister? twristiaeth ffydd, y gwn eich bod wedi bod yn ei hyrwyddo fel Gweinidog?

Edwina Hart: I do not have the details of the Edwina Hart: Nid oes gennyf fanylion ar y work that we have undertaken in this area, gwaith yr ydym wedi’i wneud yn y maes but I would be happy to put a note out. hwn, ond rwy’n fwy na pharod i anfon nodyn.

Mewnfuddsoddi Inward Investment

7. Eluned Parrott: A wnaiff y Gweinidog 7. Eluned Parrott: Will the Minister make a ddatganiad am fewnfuddsoddi yng Nghymru. statement on inward investment in Wales. OAQ(4)0172(BET) OAQ(4)0172(BET)

Edwina Hart: Following a meeting of the Edwina Hart: Yn dilyn cyfarfod o gyngor council for economic renewal on 24 adnewyddu’r economi ar 24 Medi, gwnaeth y September, the First Minister and I outlined Prif Weinidog a mi amlinellu’r camau yr the action that we are taking to boost Wales’s ydym yn eu cymryd i hybu allforion Cymru exports further, and to attract more ymhellach, ac i ddenu mwy o fuddsoddiad i investment into Wales by overseas-owned Gymru drwy gwmnïau tramor. companies.

Eluned Parrott: I was pleased to see the Eluned Parrott: Roeddwn yn falch o weld y First Minister opening the Renishaw factory Prif Weinidog yn agor ffatri Renishaw ym in Miskin. I wish to congratulate the Welsh Meisgyn. Hoffwn longyfarch Llywodraeth Government on securing that inward Cymru ar sicrhau’r buddsoddiad hwnnw o’r investment, albeit only from England. tu allan, er mai dim ond o Loegr y daw. Fodd However, overseas trade missions are critical bynnag, mae teithiau masnach dramor yn in attracting investment from further away. I hanfodol o ran denu buddsoddiad o understand that you asked the First Minister ymhellach i ffwrdd. Deallaf eich bod wedi for permission to attend a trade fair in the gofyn i’r Prif Weinidog am ganiatâd i fynd i United States, which was due to be held in ffair fasnach yn yr Unol Daleithiau, a oedd September, but that, in the event, you did not fod i gael ei chynnal ym mis Medi, ond nad attend. Can you tell us why that was? oeddech yn bresennol yn y digwyddiad. A allwch ddweud wrthym pam?

Edwina Hart: I assess everything that comes Edwina Hart: Rwy’n asesu popeth sy’n dod in. We receive invitations, and there are i mewn. Rydym yn derbyn gwahoddiadau, ac issues of whether we might go on trade mae materion yn codi ynghylch a allem fynd missions. Sometimes, they do not materialise ar deithiau masnach. Weithiau, nid ydynt yn in the way that is necessary—there is no deal troi allan i fod yn angenrheidiol—nid oes to close, or it is not judged important, in that cytundeb sydd angen ei gwblhau, neu ni it is better for companies to go. Those are the chaiff ei farnu’n bwysig, o ran ei fod yn well bases on which decisions are made. I i gwmnïau fynd. Dyna’r sail y gwneir understand that the Confederation of British penderfyniadau arno. Deallaf fod Industry fully defended my position in the Cydffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain wedi Western Mail, because it believes that amddiffyn fy safwbynt yn llawn yn y

37 10/10/2012 important use should be made of Ministers’ Western Mail, gan ei fod yn credu y dylid time, as appropriate. gwneud defnydd pwysig o amser Gweinidogion, fel y bo’n briodol.

Eluned Parrott: I agree that finding the right Eluned Parrott: Cytunaf fod dod o hyd i’r balance is critical. However, the information cydbwysedd cywir yn hanfodol. Fodd that I have stated that, in the 18 months that bynnag, mae’r wybodaeth rwyf wedi’i nodi you have been our Minister for business, you sy’n dweud yn ystod y 18 mis yr ydych wedi have not attended a single overseas trade bod yn Weinidog busnes, nad ydych wedi mission, but that, by contrast, the First mynychu’r un daith fasnach dramor, ond, ar y Minister has been on five, over the same llaw arall, mae’r Prif Weinidog wedi bod ar period. I guess that it is a question of balance. bum taith, dros yr un cyfnod. Mae’n debyg However, this is your portfolio and you have mai mater o gydbwysedd ydyw. Fodd the specialist expertise. When will you take a bynnag, eich portffolio chi yw hwn a chi lead on this important area of your work? sydd â’r arbenigedd arbenigol. Pryd fyddwch yn cymryd yr awenau ar y maes pwysig hwn o’ch gwaith?

Edwina Hart: It is a responsibility across Edwina Hart: Mae’n gyfrifoldeb ar draws y Government. Llywodraeth.

Dwyrain De Cymru South Wales East

8. Jocelyn Davies: A wnaiff y Gweinidog 8. Jocelyn Davies: Will the Minister make a ddatganiad am ei blaenoriaethau ar gyfer statement on her priorities for South Wales Dwyrain De Cymru. OAQ(4)0174(BET) East. OAQ(4)0174(BET)

Edwina Hart: My priorities are as set out in Edwina Hart: Mae fy mlaenoriaethau i’w the programme for government. gweld yn y rhaglen lywodraethu.

Jocelyn Davies: Thank you, Minister; that Jocelyn Davies: Diolch, Weinidog; roedd was very informative. [Laughter.] You will hwnnw’n ateb llawn gwybodaeth. be aware of the devastating arson attack on [Chwerthin.] Byddwch yn ymwybodol o’r the Real Crisps factory in Crumlin. Many ymosodiad bwriadol dinistriol i losgi ffatri local people, including a family member, fear Real Crisps yng Nghrymlyn. Mae llawer o losing their jobs if the factory does not bobl leol, gan gynnwys aelod o’m teulu i, yn reopen. Can you provide an update on any ofni colli eu swyddi os na fydd y ffatri yn discussions that you have been having with ailagor. A allwch chi roi’r wybodaeth the owners? ddiweddaraf am unrhyw drafodaethau yr ydych wedi eu cael â’r perchnogion?

Edwina Hart: My officials have had detailed Edwina Hart: Mae fy swyddogion wedi cael discussions with the owners. We want the trafodaethau manwl â’r perchnogion. Rydym best possible outcome from this, which is am gael y canlyniad gorau posibl o hyn, sef, obviously to retain jobs in the area. However, yn amlwg, cadw swyddi yn yr ardal. Fodd some of those discussions will be bynnag, bydd rhai o’r trafodaethau yn commercially confidential. fasnachol gyfrinachol.

Mohammad Asghar: One barrier faced by Mohammad Asghar: Un rhwystr y mae small businesses that are trying to expand in busnesau bach sy’n ceisio ehangu yn South Wales East is access to credit. The Nwyrain De Cymru yn ei wynebu yw cael Welsh Government has acknowledged that gafael ar gredyd. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru there is a problem with bank financing, wedi cydnabod bod problem o ran ariannu through its provision of small and medium- gan fanciau, drwy ei darpariaeth, drwy Gyllid sized enterprise and microbusiness loan funds Cymru, o gronfeydd benthyciadau i fusnesau

38 10/10/2012 via Finance Wales. To date, the SME bach a chanolig eu maint a microfusnesau. investment fund has invested only £1 million Hyd yma, mae’r gronfa fuddsoddi busnesau out of a possible £40 million, giving just bach a chanolig ond wedi buddsoddi £1 three businesses a loan. What is the Minister miliwn o’r £40 miliwn posibl, gan roi doing to raise awareness and to actively benthyciad i dri busnes yn unig. Beth mae’r promote these funding packages to Gweinidog yn ei wneud i godi businesses in Wales, and especially in South ymwybyddiaeth a hyrwyddo’r pecynnau Wales East? ariannu hyn i fusnesau yng Nghymru, ac yn enwedig yn Nwyrain De Cymru?

Edwina Hart: We must actively promote Edwina Hart: Mae’n rhaid i ni fynd ati i these packages across the board; that is an hyrwyddo’r pecynnau hyn drwyddi draw; important point, and we are constantly mae hynny’n bwynt pwysig, ac rydym yn reviewing our dialogue as regards what we adolygu ein deialog yn gyson o ran yr hyn yr are there to offer. Decisions on lending lie ydym yn ei gynnig. Cyllid Cymru sy’n with Finance Wales, which looks carefully at gyfrifol am benderfyniadau ar fenthyca, sy’n business plans, as do the commercial banks. I edrych yn ofalus ar gynlluniau busnes, fel y believe that we are making progress, but it is mae’r banciau masnachol yn ei wneud. important that we look at how we advertise Credaf ein bod yn gwneud cynnydd, ond what is available. mae’n bwysig ein bod yn edrych ar sut rydym yn hysbysebu’r hyn sydd ar gael.

Cychwyn Busnesau Newydd Business Start-ups

9. David Melding: A wnaiff y Gweinidog 9. David Melding: Will the Minister outline amlinellu’r camau y mae’r Llywodraeth yn measures the Government is taking to eu cymryd i hybu cychwyn busnesau newydd. encourage business startups. OAQ(4)0167(BET) OAQ(4)0167(BET)

Edwina Hart: We have a dedicated business Edwina Hart: Mae gennym uned bwrpasol start-up unit and a high potential starts ar gyfer busnesau newydd a gwasanaethau service in place to encourage business start- dechrau i fusnesau â photensial uchel er ups here in Wales. I also have a network of mwyn annog busnesau i ddechrau yma yng business entrepreneurship champions to Nghymru. Mae gennyf hefyd rwydwaith o promote entrepreneurship and business start- hyrwyddwyr entrepreneuriaeth busnes i up. hyrwyddo entrepreneuriaeth a dechrau busnesau.

David Melding: Minister, I give you and David Melding: Weinidog, rwy’n rhoi dwy your department two cheers for the business seren i chi a’ch adran am y wefan dechrau start-up website. It uses, very innovatively, busnes. Mae’n defnyddio mentoriaid ac arfer mentors and good practice to show people da, mewn ffordd arloesol iawn, i ddangos i who are interested in starting a business how bobl sydd â diddordeb mewn dechrau busnes they may take the first practical steps. In sut y gallant gymryd y camau cyntaf general, the website is aimed at getting ymarferol. Yn gyffredinol, mae’r wefan people through the initial bureaucratic tangle. wedi’i hanelu at gael pobl drwy’r dryswch Do you agree that such information needs to biwrocrataidd cychwynnol. A ydych yn be invested in because the quality that we can cytuno bod angen buddsoddi mewn provide there can often be key to whether or gwybodaeth o’r fath oherwydd gall yr not people take that vital first step? ansawdd y gallwn ei ddarparu yno yn aml fod yn allweddol o ran a fydd pobl yn cymryd y cam cyntaf hanfodol hwnnw?

Edwina Hart: I will pass on your Edwina Hart: Byddaf yn anfon eich compliments to my officials about the work canmoliaeth ymlaen at fy swyddogion am y

39 10/10/2012 that has been done in this area. I totally gwaith a wnaed yn y maes hwn. Cytunaf yn concur with your comments. llwyr â’ch sylwadau.

Lindsay Whittle: Minister, the Party of Lindsay Whittle: Weinidog, mae Plaid Wales believes that credit unions and other Cymru yn credu y gallai undebau credyd a community finance models could be an modelau cyllid cymunedol eraill fod yn help enormous help in providing capital to mawr o ran darparu cyfalaf i fusnesau sy’n business start-ups in every community in dechrau ym mhob cymuned yng Nghymru. Wales. This, in turn, could boost the credit Gallai hyn, yn ei dro, roi hwb i’r mudiad union movement all over Wales, as well as undebau credyd ledled Cymru, yn ogystal â providing a flexible, local solution to the chynnig ateb lleol hyblyg i’r broblem o problem of financing small start-ups and ariannu busnesau bach sy’n dechrau a business expansions. Will you look at ways busnesau sy’n ehangu. A fyddwch yn edrych in which credit unions and other community ar ffyrdd y gellid defnyddio undebau credyd finance models could be used to assist small a modelau cyllid cymunedol eraill i helpu businesses, particularly start-ups? busnesau bach, yn enwedig y rhai sy’n dechrau?

Edwina Hart: We are already looking at Edwina Hart: Rydym eisoes yn edrych ar rai some of the issues that you raise, and I will o’r materion rydych yn eu codi, a byddaf yn report back to Plenary in due course. adrodd yn ôl i’r Cyfarfod Llawn maes o law.

Maes Awyr Caerdydd Cardiff Airport

10. Mick Antoniw: A wnaiff y Gweinidog 10. Mick Antoniw: Will the Minister outline amlinellu’r gwaith sy’n cael ei wneud i the work being undertaken to develop and ddatblygu ac i hyrwyddo maes awyr Cymru promote Cardiff Wales airport. Caerdydd. OAQ(4)0168(BET) OAQ(4)0168(BET)

Edwina Hart: The First Minister recently Edwina Hart: Cyhoeddodd y Prif Weinidog announced details of the good progress that is yn ddiweddar fanylion am y cynnydd da a being made to develop and promote Cardiff wneir i ddatblygu a hyrwyddo Maes Awyr Airport. Caerdydd.

Mick Antoniw: I welcome very much the Mick Antoniw: Croesawaf y gwaith sy’n work that is being done in respect of the cael ei wneud i hyrwyddo’r maes awyr yn promotion of the airport. When it comes to fawr iawn. Pan ddaw’n amser i ystyried y considering the future, does the Minister dyfodol, a yw’r Gweinidog yn cytuno â mi agree with me that the examples of bod enghreifftiau Manceinion a Newcastle, Manchester and Newcastle, where there is a lle mae diddordeb sylweddol yn lleol ac significant local and public sector interest, ymysg y sector cyhoeddus, yn sicr yn are certainly options to consider, bearing in opsiynau i’w hystyried, gan gofio mind the economic importance of the airport pwysigrwydd economaidd y maes awyr i to Wales? Gymru?

Edwina Hart: The airport taskforce, which Edwina Hart: Mae tasglu’r maes awyr, y the First Minister has established, is looking mae’r Prif Weinidog wedi’i sefydlu, yn at all areas where we can make edrych ar bob maes lle y gallwn wneud improvements and help boost performance, gwelliannau a helpu i hybu perfformiad, gan looking at how to develop and promote edrych ar sut i ddatblygu a hyrwyddo Maes Cardiff Airport in terms of the passenger Awyr Caerdydd o ran profiad y teithwyr a’r experience and flights. Even today, I teithiau awyren eu hunain. Hyd yn oed understand from a press report, although I heddiw, deallaf ar ôl darllen adroddiad yn y have not confirmed it yet formally with the wasg, er nad wyf wedi cadarnhau hynny’n airport, that Lufthansa is launching flights to ffurfiol â’r maes awyr eto, fod Lufthansa yn

40 10/10/2012

Cardiff, which is good news for links to the lansio teithiau i Gaerdydd, sy’n newyddion continent. We must ensure that we have da o ran cysylltiadau â’r cyfandir. Rhaid i ni effective measures between Government and sicrhau bod gennym fesurau effeithiol rhwng the airport to ensure that we maximise the y Llywodraeth a’r maes awyr i sicrhau ein potential of the airport. bod yn gwneud y gorau o botensial y maes awyr.

Byron Davies: You have answered some of Byron Davies: Rydych wedi ateb rhai o’r the points that I was going to make, Minister. pwyntiau yr oeddwn am eu gwneud, However, since the First Minister has Weinidog. Fodd bynnag, gan fod y Prif assumed responsibility for Cardiff Airport, Weinidog wedi cymryd cyfrifoldeb dros Faes will you outline what long-term support for Awyr Caerdydd, a wnewch chi amlinellu pa the airport you have discussed with the First gymorth hirdymor ar gyfer y maes awyr yr Minister, what your department has been ydych wedi eu trafod â’r Prif Weinidog, beth doing in the interim to support the airport, mae’ch adran wedi’i wneud yn y cyfamser i and how you and your department are helpu’r maes awyr, a sut rydych chi a’ch dovetailing policy into the current action adran yn plethu polisi i’r grŵp gweithredu group, which frankly, to date, seems to presennol, sydd, a dweud y gwir, yn operate covertly? ymddangos hyd yn hyn fel petai’n gweithredu’n gudd?

Edwina Hart: I do not think that we are an Edwina Hart: Nid wyf yn credu ein bod yn arm of the US Government acting covertly in asiantaeth o Lywodraeth yr Unol Daleithiau any way, like one of these things you see on sy’n gweithredu’n gudd mewn unrhyw Sky television. The taskforce has been ffordd, fel un o’r pethau hyn a welwch ar established and it involves a group of deledu Sky. Mae’r tasglu wedi’i sefydlu ac independent people that is undertaking work mae’n cynnwys grŵp o bobl annibynnol sy’n and getting to grips with some of the issues. ymgymryd â’r gwaith ac yn mynd i’r afael â My own department has been very good in rhai o’r materion. Mae fy adran wedi bod yn the support it has given to the airport. We dda iawn o ran y cymorth y mae wedi’i roi i’r have seconded a member of staff to the maes awyr. Mae aelod o’m staff wedi mynd airport to work closely with it, and we are ar secondiad i’r maes awyr i weithio’n agos working on route development and on the gydag ef, ac rydym yn gweithio ar ddatblygu fabric of the airport and all those issues. llwybrau ac ar wneuthuriad y maes awyr a’r However, we must never look away from the holl faterion hynny. Fodd bynnag, ni ddylem fact that the airport is run by a private byth anghofio’r ffaith bod y maes awyr yn company. cael ei redeg gan gwmni preifat.

Simon Thomas: Nonetheless, Minister, if Simon Thomas: Er hynny, Weinidog, os you take a flight from Cardiff Airport to ydych yn hedfan o Faes Awyr Caerdydd i Barcelona, you will be struck by the busyness Barcelona, cewch eich taro gan y prysurdeb and investment in Barcelona airport as a’r buddsoddiad ym maes awyr Barcelona o compared with Cardiff Airport. Barcelona gymharu â Maes Awyr Caerdydd. Mae maes airport is publicly owned, publicly managed awyr Barcelona yn eiddo cyhoeddus, a chaiff and a public investment for the nation—the ei reoli’n gyhoeddus ac mae’n fuddsoddiad Spanish nation, in fact; there is a little bit of i’r genedl—cenedl Sbaen, mewn gwirionedd; controversy about the role of Catalonia and mae ychydig o ddadlau ynghylch rôl all that. [Laughter.] Nevertheless, is there not Catalonia a hynny i gyd. [Chwerthin.] Serch a lesson here for Cardiff Airport and is it not hynny, onid oes gwers yma i Faes Awyr time for this Government, or public Caerdydd ac onid yw’n bryd i’r Llywodraeth authorities in Wales to work together, to hon, neu awdurdodau cyhoeddus yng consider taking a stake, as Plaid Cymru—the Nghymru gydweithio, i ystyried cymryd Party of Wales has called for, in our cyfran, fel y mae Plaid Cymru wedi galw international airport in order to ensure its amdano, yn ein maes awyr rhyngwladol er long-term future and success? mwyn sicrhau ei ddyfodol a’i lwyddiant

41 10/10/2012

hirdymor?

Edwina Hart: If only devolution had Edwina Hart: Petai datganoli ond wedi happened much earlier and we could have digwydd llawer yn gynharach gallem fod been part and parcel of the decision to sell off wedi bod yn rhan annatod o’r penderfyniad i the airport in the first place. Hindsight is a werthu’r maes awyr yn y lle cyntaf. Mae ôl- wonderful thing in this regard. We are ddoethinebu yn rhywbeth gwych yn hyn o obviously looking at the issues now and beth. Rydym yn amlwg yn edrych ar y working with the current owners of the materion hyn yn awr ac yn gweithio gyda airport, and we will continue to do so I note pherchnogion presennol y maes awyr, a your point, and will refer the First Minister to byddwn yn parhau i wneud hynny. Nodaf your comments in the record. eich pwynt, a byddaf yn cyfeirio’r Prif Weinidog at eich sylwadau yn y cofnod.

2.45 p.m.

Blaenoriaethau Priorities

11. Yr Arglwydd Elis-Thomas: A wnaiff y 11. Lord Elis-Thomas: Will the Minister Gweinidog ddatganiad am flaenoriaethau ei make a statement on her department’s hadran ar gyfer 2012-13. OAQ(4)0170(BET) priorities for 2012-13. OAQ(4)0170(BET)

Edwina Hart: I am afraid that I am not Edwina Hart: Mae arnaf ofn nad wyf yn going to enlighten you either, because my mynd i’ch goleuo chi ychwaith, oherwydd fy priorities are for jobs and growth, as set out mlaenoriaethau yw swyddi a thwf, fel y nodir in the programme for government. yn y rhaglen lywodraethu.

Yr Arglwydd Elis-Thomas: Ond bydd y Lord Elis-Thomas: However, the Minister Gweinidog yn sylweddoli bod sicrhau swyddi will be aware that securing jobs and a chynnal yr economi yn Eryri yn ddibynnol maintaining the economy in Snowdonia is iawn ar ei pholisi o ddatblygu’r parth menter. dependent upon her policy of developing the Carwn wybod a oes gan y Gweinidog enterprise zone there. I would like to know rywbeth pellach y gall ei ddatgan ynglŷn â whether the Minister has anything further dyfodol parth menter Eryri. that she can tell us about the future of the Snowdonia enterprise zone.

Edwina Hart: I did take the opportunity Edwina Hart: Achubais ar y cyfle yn ystod y during recess of visiting the enterprise zone toriad i ymweld â’r ardal fenter unwaith eto. once again. We have now had the business Mae cynigion busnes wedi dod i law gan y proposals in from the enterprise zone board, bwrdd ardaloedd menter, yr ydym wrthi’n eu which we are currently assessing, and I will hasesu, a byddaf yn gwneud datganiad llawn be making a full statement on how we are ar sut rydym yn datblygu’r gwaith hwnnw. taking that work forward. It is absolutely Mae’n gwbl hanfodol, o ran Eryri, bod essential, in terms of Snowdonia, that early penderfyniadau cynnar yn cael eu gwneud decisions are also made in respect of Ynys hefyd o ran Ynys Môn a’r mater niwclear Môn and the nuclear issue there, because of yno, oherwydd y mater yn ymwneud â the issue around jobs links, industry and what chysylltiadau swyddi, y diwydiant a beth sy’n is appropriate. That is essential for the future. briodol. Mae hynny’n hanfodol ar gyfer y We look forward to the relevant Government dyfodol. Edrychwn ymlaen at weld yr departments making early decisions on that, adrannau perthnasol yn y Llywodraeth yn and we continue to press them to do so. gwneud penderfyniadau cynnar ar hynny, ac rydym yn parhau i bwyso arnynt i wneud hynny.

Angela Burns: I know that one of your Angela Burns: Gwn mai un o’ch

42 10/10/2012 priorities is the energy industry. Last night, blaenoriaethau yw’r diwydiant ynni. one of the key issues that came out of the Neithiwr, un o’r materion allweddol a meeting of the cross-party group on energy gododd o gyfarfod y grŵp trawsbleidiol ar was the confusion about what will happen ynni oedd y dryswch ynghylch beth fydd yn when the single environment agency is digwydd pan fydd yr asiantaeth amgylchedd formed—what is going to be devolved, what unigol yn cael ei ffurfio—beth fydd yn cael ei will stay within your department, what will ddatganoli, beth fydd yn aros o fewn eich go into the Minister for Environment and adran chi, beth fydd yn mynd at adran Sustainable Development’s department, and Gweinidog yr Amgylchedd a Datblygu what discussions there have been between Cynaliadwy, a pha drafodaethau a gafwyd your Government and the UK Government rhwng eich Llywodraeth chi a Llywodraeth y on all the new tariffs that are coming out on DU ar yr holl dariffau newydd sy’n cael eu renewables. I just wonder if you could codi ar ynni adnewyddadwy. Tybed a allech provide us with an update, even if it is a roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i ni, hyd yn oed written one. os yw’n ysgrifenedig.

Edwina Hart: I can see my colleague John Edwina Hart: Gallaf weld fy nghydweithiwr Griffiths listening to your question. John and John Griffiths yn gwrando ar eich cwestiwn. I have had discussions about the new body Cafodd John a mi drafodaethau am y corff that will take over, and he is very much newydd a fydd yn disodli’r gweddill, ac aware of the discussions within the industry, mae’n ymwybodol iawn o’r trafodaethau o and some of the concerns that have been fewn y diwydiant, a rhai o’r pryderon a expressed. I will ask him to look at your fynegwyd. Byddaf yn gofyn iddo edrych ar contribution to see whether there is anything eich cyfraniad i weld a oes unrhyw beth y that we can add that would usefully assist you gallwn ei ychwanegu a fyddai o ddefnydd i as a Member. chi fel Aelod.

Ardaloedd Twf Lleol Powys Powys Local Growth Zones

12. Kirsty Williams: Pryd y mae’r Gweinidog 12. Kirsty Williams: When does the Minister yn disgwyl y bydd Ardaloedd Twf Lleol expect Powys Local Growth Zones to become Powys yn weithredol. OAQ(4)0166(BET) operational. OAQ(4)0166(BET)

Edwina Hart: Over the summer, I have been Edwina Hart: Dros yr haf, rwyf wedi bod yn considering the recommendations of the ystyried argymhellion adroddiad ardaloedd Powys local growth zones report, receiving twf lleol Powys, a chael sylwadau pellach further comments from colleagues and gan gydweithwyr a phartneriaid allanol, yn external partners, as well as the public. As I ogystal â’r cyhoedd. Fel y dywedais yn fy said in my letter to Assembly Members at the llythyr at Aelodau’r Cynulliad ddiwedd mis end of September, I will be making a further Medi, byddaf yn gwneud datganiad pellach statement shortly, because there are over 40 yn fuan, gan fod dros 40 o argymhellion yn recommendations in the report. yr adroddiad.

Kirsty Williams: Those of us who live in Kirsty Williams: Mae’r rheini ohonom sy’n Powys were heartened by your acceptance of byw ym Mhowys wedi ein calonogi gan y the principle of local growth zones there, and ffaith eich bod yn derbyn egwyddor the report of the group chaired by Justin ardaloedd twf lleol yno, ac roedd adroddiad y Baird-Murray did include many innovative grŵp dan gadeiryddiaeth Justin Baird-Murray examples of how we can breathe new life into yn cynnwys enghreifftiau arloesol o sut y Brecon and Radnorshire’s market towns. gallwn roi bywyd newydd i Aberhonddu a Those people in Llandrindod Wells who very threfi marchnad Sir Faesyfed. Byddai’r bobl much want to see the principle of a hynny yn Llandrindod sy’n awyddus iawn i convention town being taken forward would weld yr egwyddor o dref gonfensiynol yn be grateful to know when you will make a cael ei datblygu yn ddiolchgar o gael gwybod final decision on whether that plan is to go pryd y byddwch yn gwneud penderfyniad

43 10/10/2012 ahead. terfynol o ran p’un a yw’r cynllun hwnnw yn mynd yn ei flaen.

Edwina Hart: We are working quite quickly Edwina Hart: Rydym yn gweithio’n eithaf on this. Discussions are being finalised on the cyflym ar hyn. Mae trafodaethau yn cael eu possible establishment of a pilot group in cwblhau ar y posibilrwydd o sefydlu grŵp Llandrindod Wells to look at the respective peilot yn Llandrindod i edrych ar y materion issues there. I am also looking at a hyper- priodol yno. Rwyf hefyd yn edrych ar local pilot scheme, which is being taken gynllun peilot tra lleol, sy’n cael ei ddatblygu forward by my officials. It looks quite gan fy swyddogion. Mae’n edrych yn eithaf exciting, and we are in the last few weeks of cyffrous, ac rydym yng nghanol yr arranging the details on that, so the statement wythnosau olaf o drefnu’r manylion ar on these initiatives will be available in full at hynny, felly bydd y datganiad ar y mentrau the end of October. hyn ar gael yn llawn ddiwedd mis Hydref.

Russell George: Thank you for your update Russell George: Diolch am eich llythyr dros letter over the summer on enterprise zones, yr haf yn rhoi’r diweddaraf am ardaloedd especially in regard to growth zones in menter, yn enwedig o ran yr ardaloedd twf Powys. As you can imagine, the economy of ym Mhowys. Fel y gallwch ddychmygu, mae Powys is in desperate need for the project to angen dybryd ar yr economi ym Mhowys i be released as quickly as possible. I gychwyn y prosiect cyn gynted ag y bo appreciate your previous answers. When do modd. Rwy’n gwerthfawrogi eich atebion you think businesses on the ground will be blaenorol. Pryd ydych yn meddwl y bydd able to see a plan in action? When do you busnesau go iawn yn gallu gweld cynllun ar envisage that to be? waith? Pryd ydych yn rhagweld hynny?

Edwina Hart: When I make my response to Edwina Hart: Pan fyddaf yn gwneud fy all the recommendations on how to take it ymateb i’r holl argymhellion o ran sut i fwrw forward, it will be up to everyone locally to ymlaen â hwy, bydd pawb yn lleol yn gyfrifol get involved and to do what we can to make am gymryd rhan a gwneud yr hyn y gallwn er what comes out of the Powys local growth mwyn gwireddu’r hyn a ddaw o’r adroddiad zone report a reality for the people of Powys ar ardal twf lleol Powys i bobl Powys a’u and their businesses. busnesau.

Simon Thomas: Un o’r argymhellion a Simon Thomas: One of the gafodd dipyn o groeso ym Mhowys oedd yr recommendations welcomed in Powys was un ynglŷn â symleiddio rheolau cynllunio, the one on simplifying planning rules, gan ei fod yn ymwneud nid yn unig â’r because it relates not only to the county cyngor sir, ond â’r parc cenedlaethol hefyd. council, but also to the national park. Are you A ydych yn delio â’r argymhelliad hwnnw ar dealing with that recommendation separately, wahân, ynteu a yw’n ddibynnol ar yr or is it dependent on the planning review that adolygiad cynllunio y mae Gweinidog yr the Minister for Environment and Sustainable Amgylchedd a Datblygu Cynaliadwy yn ei Development is currently conducting? Could gynnal ar hyn o bryd? A oes modd i bobl the people of Powys see something more Powys weld rhywbeth yn fwy cloi ar y mater swiftly in this area? hwn?

Edwina Hart: Obviously, it is a matter that I Edwina Hart: Yn amlwg, mae’n fater yr wyf am discussing with my colleague John yn ei drafod â’m cydweithiwr John Griffiths. Griffiths. He is well aware of the Mae’n ymwybodol iawn o’r argymhelliad a recommendation that was made in the report. wnaed yn yr adroddiad. Rwy’n credu ei fod I think that he is also aware of some of the hefyd yn ymwybodol o rai o’r sylwadau y comments that individuals put on the website mae unigolion yn eu rhoi ar y wefan am about planning. I know that he is fully gynllunio. Gwn ei fod wedi cael ei hysbysu’n apprised after our discussion about the issues llawn ar ôl ein trafodaeth am y materion sy’n

44 10/10/2012 around that. ymwneud â hynny.

Cefnogi Economi Cymru Supporting the Welsh Economy

13. Sandy Mewies: A wnaiff y Gweinidog 13. Sandy Mewies: Will the Minster make a ddatganiad am y gwaith sy’n mynd rhagddo i statement on work going on to support the gefnogi economi Cymru. OAQ(4)0177(BET) Welsh economy. OAQ(4)0177(BET)

Edwina Hart: We are supporting the Welsh Edwina Hart: Rydym yn cefnogi economi economy currently by focusing on providing Cymru ar hyn o bryd drwy ganolbwyntio ar immediate assistance to businesses through ddarparu cymorth uniongyrchol i fusnesau access to finance, trying to reduce other drwy fynediad at gyllid, gan geisio lleihau barriers and investing for a longer term rhwystrau eraill a buddsoddi am gyfnod hwy through the key sectors, enterprise zones, drwy’r sectorau allweddol, ardaloedd menter, broadband and the science policy. band eang a’r polisi gwyddoniaeth.

Sandy Mewies: The seven enterprise zones Sandy Mewies: Bydd y saith ardal fenter that are now set up will offer new growth sydd wrthi’n cael eu sefydlu yn cynnig opportunities for business across Wales, cyfleoedd twf newydd i fusnes ledled Cymru, including in Flintshire. However, it was gan gynnwys yn Sir y Fflint. Fodd bynnag, disappointing when you reported in the roedd yn siomedig pan wnaethoch adrodd yn summer that the UK Government was yr haf fod Llywodraeth y DU yn bwriadu intending to restrict the amount of assistance cyfyngu ar faint o gymorth y gallwn ei that we can offer to businesses wanting to gynnig i fusnesau sy’n dymuno buddsoddi invest in Wales. Potential investors will want yng Nghymru. Bydd buddsoddwyr posibl am to know what Wales can offer them. What wybod beth y gall Cymru ei gynnig iddynt. progress is being made in this area? It is Pa gynnydd sy’n cael ei wneud yn y maes essential that the work that the Welsh hwn? Mae’n hanfodol nad yw’r gwaith y mae Government is doing to offer the skills and Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei wneud i gynnig support that will produce job opportunities is sgiliau a chymorth i greu cyfleoedd gwaith not hindered by others. yn cael ei lesteirio gan eraill.

Edwina Hart: We must recognise that good Edwina Hart: Rhaid inni gydnabod bod progress is being made in the development of cynnydd da yn cael ei wneud wrth the enterprise zones. The private sector ddatblygu’r ardaloedd menter. Mae byrddau’r boards have certainly hit the ground running. sector preifat yn sicr wedi bwrw ati gyda’u Having the private sector take the lead in this gwaith. Mae cael y sector preifat i gymryd yr has been of enormous benefit. However, at awenau yn hyn wedi bod o fudd aruthrol. the end of the day, there are still issues with Fodd bynnag, yn y pen draw, mae problemau the Treasury. Some of these changes have a o hyd gyda’r Trysorlys. Mae rhai o’r huge impact, particularly in Wales, where newidiadau hyn yn cael effaith anferth, yn there is a disproportionately large impact due enwedig yng Nghymru, lle ceir effaith to our tier 1 status, which Members will anghymesur o fawr oherwydd ein statws haen understand. We have been in contact with the 1, y bydd Aelodau yn deall. Rydym wedi bod Treasury—as have the Scots—and we are mewn cysylltiad â’r Trysorlys—yn yr un hopeful to get a resolution in correspondence modd â’r Albanwyr—ac rydym yn gobeithio over the next few weeks. cael penderfyniad mewn gohebiaeth dros yr wythnosau nesaf.

Paul Davies: I very much welcome that the Paul Davies: Rwy’n croesawu’r ffaith bod Welsh Government has decided to create an Llywodraeth Cymru wedi penderfynu creu enterprise zone in Pembrokeshire, which will ardal fenter yn Sir Benfro, a fydd yn rhoi hwb boost the local economy. However, it is i’r economi leol. Fodd bynnag, mae’n bwysig important that momentum is not lost and that nad yw momentwm yn cael ei golli a bod y the implementation of these zones begins to gwaith o weithredu’r ardaloedd hyn yn

45 10/10/2012 take shape. Given that others have asked dechrau cymryd siâp. O gofio bod eraill wedi about their own enterprise zones, will the gofyn am eu hardaloedd menter eu hunain, a Minister update us on the development of the wnaiff y Gweinidog roi’r wybodaeth Haven waterway enterprise zone in my ddiweddaraf inni am y gwaith o ddatblygu constituency? ardal fenter dyfrffordd y Daugleddau yn fy etholaeth i?

Edwina Hart: The Haven waterway was in Edwina Hart: Roedd ardal dyfrffordd y the second wave of enterprise zones. I can Daugleddau yn rhan o ail don o’r ardaloedd assure you that the chair has quickly got to menter. Gallaf eich sicrhau bod y cadeirydd grips with the situation in the Haven. We wedi mynd i’r afael yn gyflym â’r sefyllfa yn have received development proposals from yr ardal. Mae cynigion datblygu wedi dod i the Haven board for us to take a look at. law gan fwrdd y Daugleddau i ni edrych There are some key issues for the board, for arnynt. Mae rhai materion allweddol i’w example in terms of enhanced information hystyried gan y bwrdd, er enghraifft o ran and communications technology gwybodaeth fanwl a chysylltedd technoleg connectivity; the broadband and mobile cyfathrebu; nodwyd rhwydwaith band eang a network has been identified as a priority symudol yn flaenoriaeth yn yr ardal honno. within that area. There are infrastructure Ceir materion seilwaith yn ymwneud â issues around transport, which I am thrafnidiaeth, yr wyf yn eu trafod â’m discussing with my colleague the Minister cydweithiwr, y Gweinidog sydd â with responsibility for transport. There are chyfrifoldeb dros drafnidiaeth. Mae materion issues around the energy installations around yn ymwneud â gosodiadau ynni o amgylch Milford Haven and there are also issues about Aberdaugleddau ac mae hefyd faterion the spin-off benefits for hotels and the wider ynghylch y sgîl fanteision i westai a’r tourism industry. All of those issues are diwydiant twristiaeth ehangach. Mae pob un contained in the board’s proposals to me, o’r materion hynny wedi’u cynnwys yng which I am considering and on which I will nghynigion y bwrdd i mi, yr wyf yn eu be making announcements in the next few hystyried ac y byddaf yn gwneud weeks. cyhoeddiadau arnynt yn ystod yr wythnosau nesaf.

Hyrwyddo Twf Economaidd Promoting Economic Growth

14. William Graham: A wnaiff y Gweinidog 14. William Graham: Will the Minister amlinellu polisïau Llywodraeth Cymru i outline the Welsh Government’s policies to hyrwyddo twf economaidd yn Nwyrain De promote economic growth in South Wales Cymru. OAQ(4)0175(BET) East. OAQ(4)0175(BET)

Edwina Hart: We are promoting economic Edwina Hart: Rydym yn hyrwyddo twf growth in all parts of Wales by investing in economaidd ym mhob rhan o Gymru drwy infrastructure, skills, innovation and fuddsoddi mewn seilwaith, sgiliau, arloesi a improving the business environment. gwella’r amgylchedd busnes.

William Graham: I thank the Minister for William Graham: Diolch i’r Gweinidog am her reply. The Minister will be fully aware of ei hateb. Bydd y Gweinidog yn gwbl the impact of the arson attack on the Real ymwybodol o effaith yr ymosodiad llosgi Crisps factory at Crumlin. Could she confirm bwriadol ar ffatri Real Crisps yng that her officials have met with Nghrymlyn. A allai gadarnhau bod ei representatives of the company? What swyddogion wedi cwrdd â chynrychiolwyr y assistance can be offered to support and cwmni? Pa gymorth gellir ei gynnig i helpu a facilitate the return to production and hwyluso’r ffatri i gynhyrchu eto a dod â employment as soon as possible? chyflogaeth yn ôl cyn gynted ag y bo modd?

Edwina Hart: Yes, we have had discussions Edwina Hart: Ydym, rydym wedi cael

46 10/10/2012 of this nature. I will be happy to update trafodaethau o’r math hwn. Rwy’n fwy na Members on any progress on this particular pharod i roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i issue. Aelodau ar unrhyw gynnydd ar y mater penodol hwn.

Sefydlu Ardaloedd Menter Establishing Enterprise Zones

15. William Powell: A wnaiff y Gweinidog 15. William Powell: Will the Minister make a ddatganiad am sefydlu Ardaloedd Menter statement on the establishment of Enterprise yng Nghymru. OAQ(4)0176(BET) Zones in Wales. OAQ(4)0176(BET)

Edwina Hart: I refer you to my letter of 26 Edwina Hart: Fe’ch cyfeiriaf at fy llythyr September to all Assembly Members. dyddiedig 26 Medi at holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad.

William Powell: Thank you for that answer, William Powell: Diolch am yr ateb hwnnw, Minister. I am particularly interested in what Weinidog. Mae gennyf ddiddordeb arbennig procedures are in place to monitor the yma mha weithdrefnau sydd ar waith i governance of enterprise zones and what fonitro’r gwaith o lywodraethu ardaloedd safeguards there are, should a particular menter a pha fesurau diogelwch sydd yno, pe enterprise zone fail to deliver. Can you byddai ardal fenter benodol yn methu â envisage circumstances under which you chyflawni ei gwaith? A allwch chi ragweld would intervene directly in such a zone? amgylchiadau lle y byddech yn gorfod ymyrryd yn uniongyrchol mewn ardal o’r fath?

Edwina Hart: The zones are now moving Edwina Hart: Mae’r ardaloedd bellach yn from the interim governance arrangement to a symud o’r trefniant llywodraethu dros dro i more permanent governance arrangement, so drefniant llywodraethu mwy parhaol, felly your comments are quite opportune. In terms mae eich sylwadau yn eithaf amserol. O ran of governance, they are closely following the llywodraethu, maent yn dilyn dull gorchwyl a sector panel task and finish approach. As a gorffen y sector panel yn agos. O ganlyniad, result, you can intervene if you feel that gallwch ymyrryd os ydych yn teimlo nad yw things are not going well. I will certainly give pethau’n mynd yn dda. Byddaf yn sicr yn some further consideration to the issues that ystyried ymhellach y materion a godir you raise around governance and try to gennych ynghylch llywodraethu ac yn ceisio provide clarity to Members on it. ei egluro i Aelodau.

Mark Isherwood: Given the Mark Isherwood: O ystyried yr recommendation in the city regions report argymhelliad yn yr adroddiad ar ddinas- that the Mersey Dee Alliance should be ranbarthau a oedd yn dweud y dylid cryfhau strengthened to be a regional strategic body Cynghrair Mersi Dyfrdwy i fod yn gorff with powers to deliver jobs and prosperity in strategol rhanbarthol sydd â phwerau i north-east Wales, what role do you envisage ddarparu swyddi a ffyniant yng ngogledd- the Deeside enterprise zone playing in that? ddwyrain Cymru, pa rôl yr ydych yn How can we ensure a positive message to rhagweld y bydd ardal fenter Glannau neutralise the scaremongering that we have Dyfrdwy yn ei chwarae yn hynny? Sut y seen in the past, which has misrepresented gallwn sicrhau neges gadarnhaol i the Mersey Dee Alliance as an attempt to niwtraleiddio’r rhai sy’n codi bwganod yn y colonise the region? gorffennol, sydd wedi camgynrychioli Cynghrair Mersi Dyfrdwy fel ymgais i wladychu’r rhanbarth?

Edwina Hart: I am very pleased with the Edwina Hart: Rwy’n falch iawn o’r

47 10/10/2012 report. I do not want to pre-empt what I adroddiad. Nid wyf am achub y blaen ar yr might say about the city regions report, but it hyn y gallai ei ddweud am yr adroddiad ar is useful for us in Government in terms of ddinas ranbarthau, ond mae’n ddefnyddiol i developing policy. It is important to ni yn y Llywodraeth o ran datblygu polisi. recognise those strategic links across our Mae’n bwysig cydnabod y cysylltiadau border in terms of businesses in north Wales. strategol hynny dros y ffin o ran busnesau yn I hope that the report has done some good in y gogledd. Rwy’n gobeithio y bydd yr drawing some of the strands together. adroddiad wedi gwneud rhywfaint o ddaioni wrth lunio rhai o’r llinynnau at ei gilydd.

Pwynt o Drefn Point of Order

Eluned Parrott: Point of order. In answer to Eluned Parrott: Pwynt o drefn. Mewn ateb i the leader of Plaid Cymru, who asked about arweinydd Plaid Cymru, a ofynnodd am y the new management structure at Cardiff strwythur rheoli newydd yng Nghyngor Council and the outsourcing of jobs, the Caerdydd a rhoi swyddi allanol ar gontract, Minister for Business, Enterprise, nododd y Gweinidog Busnes, Menter, Technology and Science stated that the Technoleg a Gwyddoniaeth fod y decision to outsource was taken by the penderfyniad i roi swyddi ar gontract wedi ei previous administration. I believe that wneud gan y weinyddiaeth flaenorol. Credaf statement to be factually inaccurate. I fod y datganiad yn ffeithiol anghywir. Holais checked with the leader of that arweinydd y weinyddiaeth, ac roeddwn ar administration, and I was given to understand ddeall bod y digwyddiadau fel a ganlyn: that the course of events was as follows: the gofynnodd Llywodraeth Cymru i gynghorau Welsh Government asked councils in Wales yng Nghymru weithio gyda’i gilydd i to work together to deliver economies of gyflawni arbedion mewn gwasanaethau scale in support services, that Cardiff Council cymorth, ymunodd Cyngor Caerdydd â joined a consortium of 10 councils to explore chonsortiwm o 10 cyngor i archwilio’r the issue— [Interruption.] mater—[Torri ar draws.]

The Presiding Officer: Order. I think that I Y Llywydd: Trefn. Rwy’n credu mai fi sy’n am chairing this meeting. It is helpful to have cadeirio’r cyfarfod. Mae’n ddefnyddiol cael advice, but will you bring your point to a cyngor, ond a wnewch chi orffen eich pwynt, close, please? os gwelwch yn dda?

Eluned Parrott: Of course. Cardiff Council, Eluned Parrott: Wrth gwrs. Ni wnaeth at that time, made no decision to outsource Cyngor Caerdydd, ar y pryd, unrhyw jobs. It is a matter of public record that the benderfyniad i roi’r swyddi ar gontract. plan to expand senior management was taken Mae’n fater o gofnod cyhoeddus bod y by the current administration. cynllun i ymestyn yr uwch reolwyr wedi’i wneud gan y weinyddiaeth bresennol.

Edwina Hart: I am more than happy to Edwina Hart: Rwy’n fwy na pharod i respond. I think I said that I thought that that ymateb. Rwy’n credu i mi ddweud mai dyna was the case; I was not sure. I am happy to be oeddwn i’n feddwl oedd yr achos; nid corrected on the record. I always try to oeddwn yn siŵr. Rwy’n hapus i gael fy answer questions in the Chamber to the level nghywiro ar y cofnod. Rwyf bob amser yn of my understanding. ceisio ateb cwestiynau yn y Siambr hyd eithaf fy nealltwriaeth.

Adroddiad y Pwyllgor Deisebau ar Lygredd ym Mornant Porth Tywyn The Petitions Committee’s Report on Pollution of the Burry Inlet

48 10/10/2012

Cynnig NDM5057 William Powell Motion NDM5057 William Powell

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru: The National Assembly for Wales:

Yn nodi adroddiad y Pwyllgor Deisebau ar Notes the report of the Petitions Committee Ddeiseb P-03-238: Llygredd ym Mornant on Petition P-03-238: Pollution of the Burry Porth Tywyn, a osodwyd yn y Swyddfa Inlet, which was laid in the Table Office on Gyflwyno ar 16 Gorffennaf 2012. 16 July 2012.

William Powell: I move the motion. William Powell: Cynigiaf y cynnig.

As Chair of the Petitions Committee, it is a Fel Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Deisebau, mae’n particular pleasure to open this important bleser i mi agor y ddadl bwysig hon yn y Plenary debate on the committee’s report on Cyfarfod Llawn ar adroddiad y pwyllgor ar a petition calling for a public inquiry into the ddeiseb yn galw am ymchwiliad cyhoeddus i pollution of Burry inlet, which is also in my lygredd yng nghilfach Porth Tywyn, sydd region of Mid and West Wales. hefyd yn fy rhanbarth i, sef Canolbarth a Gorllewin Cymru.

The petitions process, which was established Mae’r broses ddeisebau, a sefydlwyd yn in 2007, continues to thrive and grow. The 2007, yn parhau i ffynnu a thyfu. Mae’r committee continues to be kept busy with a pwyllgor yn parhau i fod yn brysur gydag wide range of petitions covering all aspects ystod eang o ddeisebau sy’n cwmpasu pob of the Assembly’s devolved powers. It gives agwedd ar bwerau datganoledig y Cynulliad. the public a clear voice in the Assembly. In Mae’n rhoi llais cyhoeddus a chlir yn y many ways, it is democracy in action. Cynulliad. Mewn sawl ffordd, mae’n ddemocratiaeth ar waith.

I thank the petitioners who brought the issue Diolchaf i’r deisebwyr a ddaeth â’r mater am of cockle mortality to our attention. They farwolaethau cocos i’n sylw. Maent wedi have tenaciously pursued this issue for many mynd ar drywydd y mater hwn yn ddiflino years. We understand their frustrations at am flynyddoedd lawer. Rydym yn deall eu trying to establish what has caused the mass rhwystredigaethau wrth geisio canfod beth cockle mortalities that have had such a sydd wedi achosi’r marwolaethau cocos devastating effect on their traditional torfol sydd wedi cael effaith mor ddinistriol industry. We would also like to thank the ar eu diwydiant traddodiadol. Hoffem hefyd agencies involved in this issue—the ddiolch i’r asiantaethau sydd wedi cymryd Environment Agency Wales, Dŵr Cymru rhan yn y mater hwn—Asiantaeth yr Welsh Water and Carmarthenshire County Amgylchedd Cymru, Dŵr Cymru a Chyngor Council—for assisting the committee in its Sir Caerfyrddin—am helpu’r pwyllgor i consideration of the issue, and, indeed, the ystyried y mater, ac, yn wir, Cyfarwyddiaeth European Commission’s Directorate-General Gyffredinol y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd dros yr for the Environment for its intense interest in Amgylchedd am ei diddordeb brwd yn y these matters. materion hyn.

I will give some background to the issue Rwyf am roi rhywfaint o gefndir i’r mater before talking in more detail about the cyn siarad yn fanylach am y ddeiseb a’n petition and our recommendations. There is a hargymhellion. Mae yna draddodiad hir o long tradition of cockle harvesting in gynaeafu cocos ym mae Caerfyrddin. Fodd Carmarthen bay. However, since 2002, there bynnag, ers 2002, mae nifer sylweddol o have been annual mass cockle mortalities. gocos yn marw’n flynyddol. Mae hyn wedi This has had a huge impact on the cockle cael effaith enfawr ar y diwydiant cocos. Ar industry. Cocklers told us on our site visit ein hymweliad â’r safle, dywedodd casglwyr that they now have to rely on a mere 12 cocos wrthym eu bod bellach yn gorfod weeks’ work a year. The cocklers feel that dibynnu ar ddim ond 12 wythnos o waith y

49 10/10/2012 the mortalities have increased since a number flwyddyn. Mae’r casglwyr cocos yn teimlo of incidents with sewage spilling into the bod y marwolaethau wedi cynyddu ers nifer o local rivers that feed into the Carmarthen bay ddigwyddiadau yn ymwneud â charthion yn area. Those spills resulted in a legal case gorlifo i mewn i’r afonydd lleol sy’n bwydo i being brought against Dŵr Cymru, which mewn i ardal bae Caerfyrddin. Arweiniodd y was fined £20,000. We are also aware that gorlifo at ddwyn achos cyfreithiol yn erbyn the cocklers have lodged a complaint with the Dŵr Cymru, a gafodd ddirwy o £20,000. European Commission. Rydym hefyd yn ymwybodol bod y casglwyr cocos wedi cyflwyno cwyn i’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd.

In 2009, Environment Agency Wales, on the Yn 2009, comisiynodd Asiantaeth yr instruction of the Welsh Government, Amgylchedd Cymru, ar gyfarwyddyd commissioned an investigation into the Llywodraeth Cymru, ymchwiliad i’r cockle mortalities. While this study did not marwolaethau cocos. Er nad oedd yr focus on the sewage spills, pollution was astudiaeth hon yn canolbwyntio ar garthion considered. The Institute of Estuarine and yn gorlifo, cafodd llygredd ei ystyried. Coastal Studies published its report in Cyhoeddodd yr Athrofa Astudiaethau Aberol January. The report stated that ac Arfordirol ei adroddiad ym mis Ionawr. Nododd yr adroddiad

‘there is no evidence that pollution in the nad oes tystiolaeth bod llygredd yn y dŵr neu water or sediment is related to the waddod yn gysylltiedig â’r marwolaethau. mortalities’.

After careful consideration of this issue over Ar ôl ystyried y mater yn ofalus dros gyfnod a period of time, including a visit to Burry o amser, gan gynnwys ymweliad â chilfach inlet, a meeting with the petitioners, and, at a Porth Tywyn, cyfarfod â’r deisebwyr, ac, yn later date, a meeting with representatives of ddiweddarach, cyfarfod â chynrychiolwyr o the Environment Agency and Welsh Water, Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd a Dŵr Cymru, we came to a number of recommendations. In daethom i nifer o argymhellion. Yn sgîl y light of both the court case and the institute’s ddau achos llys ac adroddiad yr athrofa, report, we feel that it is unlikely that a public rydym yn teimlo ei bod yn annhebygol y inquiry could significantly add to our gallai ymchwiliad cyhoeddus ychwanegu’n understanding of the issue of cockle sylweddol at ein dealltwriaeth o’r mater o mortality. While not supporting the call of the farwolaethau cocos. Er nad ydym yn cefnogi petition for a public inquiry, we do strongly galwad y ddeiseb am ymchwiliad cyhoeddus, support the petitioners’ wish that this issue is rydym yn cefnogi’n gryf ddymuniad y treated as a matter of priority. This is directly deisebwyr bod y mater hwn yn cael ei drin fel impacting on people’s livelihoods and we mater o flaenoriaeth. Mae hyn yn effeithio’n need to understand if there is anything that uniongyrchol ar fywoliaeth pobl ac mae can be done to lessen that impact. angen i ni wybod os y gellir gwneud unrhyw beth i leihau’r effaith honno.

3.00 p.m.

We made six recommendations to the Welsh Gwnaethom chwe argymhelliad i Lywodraeth Government, and I am pleased that five have Cymru, ac rwy’n falch fod pump wedi’u been accepted. The positive response from derbyn. Mae’r ymateb cadarnhaol gan y the Government indicates that all the Llywodraeth yn dangos bod yr holl agencies involved are taking steps to reduce asiantaethau sy’n rhan o hyn yn cymryd the likelihood of sewage spills into the bay camau i leihau’r posibilrwydd o golli carthion and to improve understanding of why mass i mewn i’r bae ac i wella dealltwriaeth o pam cockle mortalities continue. fod cymaint o gocos yn parhau i farw.

50 10/10/2012

In recommendation 1, we called for the Yn argymhelliad 1, roeddem yn galw ar Welsh Government to prioritise the need for Lywodraeth Cymru i flaenoriaethu’r angen i improvements to the sewerage system in wella’r system garthffosiaeth yn Llanelli. Llanelli. We welcome the commitment in the Rydym yn croesawu’r ymrwymiad yn Government’s response that the programme ymateb y Llywodraeth y bwriedir i’r rhaglen for improvements, which will include 173 o welliannau, a fydd yn cynnwys 173 o individual projects, will be scheduled for brosiectau unigol, gael ei chwblhau erbyn completion by 2025. More importantly, we 2025. Yn bwysicach, rydym yn falch bod pob are pleased that each improvement phase has cam gwella wedi cael ei greu gyda’r nod o been established with the aim of delivering gyflwyno’r mwyaf o fudd yn gynnar yn y the greatest benefits early on in the rhaglen. programme.

Recommendation 2 called for short-term Roedd argymhelliad 2 yn galw am atebion solutions to be put in place while the tymor byr i gael eu rhoi ar waith tra bod y infrastructure work is being carried out. gwaith seilwaith yn cael ei wneud. Tra’n While welcoming the work that will remove croesawu’r gwaith a fydd yn dileu 25% o’r 25% of surface water within the next two dŵr wyneb yn y ddwy flynedd nesaf, years, I ask the Minister for more information gofynnaf i’r Gweinidog am fwy o wybodaeth on what is being done in the immediate short am yr hyn sy’n cael ei wneud yn y dyfodol term to mitigate the pressure on the sewerage agos i liniaru’r pwysau ar y system system in Llanelli. garthffosiaeth yn Llanelli.

In recommendation 4, we called for the Yn argymhelliad 4, galwn ar Lywodraeth Welsh Government to work with other Cymru i gydweithio ag asiantaethau eraill i agencies to build on the research already ddatblygu’r ymchwil a wnaed eisoes. Dylai undertaken. The experiences and profiadau a sylwadau’r casglwyr cocos gael observations of the cocklers should be eu hystyried fel rhan annatod o’r gwaith hwn. considered an integral part of this work. We Rydym yn falch o weld bod gweithgor cocos are pleased to see that a cockle working wedi ei sefydlu a fydd, gobeithio, yn helpu i group has been established that will hopefully sicrhau y bydd gwybodaeth y casglwyr cocos help to ensure that the cocklers’ knowledge yn llywio gwaith yn y dyfodol. Byddwn yn will inform future work. I would welcome an croesawu diweddariad gan y Gweinidog ar yr update from the Minister on the consultation ymgynghoriad a gynhaliwyd ym mis Awst held in August with the cocklers on the gyda’r casglwyr cocos ar y cynllun rheoli proposed management plan. arfaethedig.

Simon Thomas: I am grateful to the Chair of Simon Thomas: Rwyf yn ddiolchgar i the committee for giving way. I welcome his Gadeirydd y pwyllgor am ildio. Rwyf yn report and the response, on the whole, of the croesawu ei adroddiad ac ymateb y Minister, particularly on the need to separate Gweinidog, ar y cyfan, yn enwedig ar yr drainage water from sewage water, which is a angen i wahanu dŵr draenio a dŵr carthion, problem in the town of Llanelli as well as sy’n broblem yn nhref Llanelli yn ogystal â something that is possibly affecting the bod yn rhywbeth sydd o bosibl yn effeithio ar cockle beds. Is he content with the response y gwelyau cocos. A yw’n fodlon gydag from the Government on that issue of ymateb y Llywodraeth ar wahanu dŵr separating these two issues of drainage and draenio a dŵr carthion, oherwydd ymddengys sewage, because that seems to be at the heart mai hynny sydd wrth wraidd y broblem of the problem that we are facing here? rydym yn ei wynebu yn y fan hyn?

William Powell: I am grateful to Simon William Powell: Rwyf yn ddiolchgar i Thomas for that intervention. I believe that Simon Thomas am yr ymyriad hwnnw. significant work has been done in that area, Credaf fod gwaith sylweddol wedi cael ei but I would welcome further comments and wneud yn hynny o beth, ond byddwn yn clarification from the Minister in response to croesawu sylwadau ac eglurhad pellach gan y

51 10/10/2012 that particular issue so as to be able to Gweinidog mewn ymateb i’r mater penodol comment more fully. hwnnw er mwyn gallu gwneud sylwadau llawnach.

While the Minister accepts recommendation Er bod y Gweinidog yn derbyn argymhelliad 5, which called for all water quality test 5, sy’n galw am gyhoeddi holl ganlyniadau’r results to be published, I would welcome profion ansawdd dŵr, byddwn yn croesawu more information on when further data will rhagor o wybodaeth am pryd y bydd mwy o be made publicly available. The open ddata ar gael i’r cyhoedd. Mae’r ffaith bod availability of data is essential to increase data ar gael yn agored yn hanfodol er mwyn transparency and to reduce the suspicion that cynyddu tryloywder ac i leihau’r amheuaeth is still out there, which the cocklers still sy’n dal i fodoli ymysg y casglwyr cocos fod harbour, that there is a problem with the problem gyda’r drefn profi ansawdd dŵr. water quality testing regime.

Our final recommendation called for the Roedd ein hargymhelliad olaf yn galw i’r Government to offer support to those affected Llywodraeth gynnig cymorth i’r rhai a by the devastating decline of the cockle gafodd eu heffeithio gan ddirywiad industry in the Burry inlet. This trychinebus y diwydiant cocos yng nghilfach recommendation was rejected. While we Tywyn. Cafodd yr argymhelliad hwn ei welcome the support provided by the Welsh wrthod. Er ein bod yn croesawu’r gefnogaeth Government, such as the funding of the a ddarperir gan Lywodraeth Cymru, megis institute’s investigations into the issue of ariannu ymchwiliadau’r sefydliad i cockle mortality, this does not mitigate the farwolaethau cocos, nid yw hyn yn lliniaru’r financial and broader impacts that the mass effeithiau ariannol ac ehangach a gafodd y mortalities have had. That is to be regretted. marwolaethau hyn. Mae hynny’n drueni.

Overall, we welcome the Welsh Yn gyffredinol, rydym yn croesawu ymateb Government’s response. We are pleased that Llywodraeth Cymru. Rydym yn falch bod a programme of work to improve the rhaglen o waith i wella’r system sewerage system in Llanelli is being garthffosiaeth yn Llanelli yn cael ei implemented. We are also pleased that gweithredu. Rydym hefyd yn falch bod further investigations are being undertaken to rhagor o ymchwiliadau yn cael eu cynnal i help improve understanding of the causes of helpu i ddeall yn well pam fod gymaint o mass cockle mortality. These greater efforts gocos yn marw. Mae’r ymdrechion are being made by the Environment Agency, ychwanegol hyn yn cael eu gwneud gan and we should acknowledge those today, Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd, a dylem eu while urging it to engage further and more cydnabod heddiw, tra’n ei hannog i intensely with the cockling community. ymgysylltu ymhellach ac yn fwy dwys gyda’r gymuned cocos.

I would like to close by, once again, thanking Hoffwn gloi drwy ddiolch, unwaith eto, i’r the petitioners for bringing this issue to our deisebwyr am ddod â’r mater hwn i’n sylw, attention, and helping us to gain an ac i’n helpu i ddeall y materion dan sylw. understanding of the issues involved. We Rydym yn gobeithio y gall ein hadroddiad a hope that our report and today’s debate can dadl heddiw fod yn rhan o’r gwaith o ddod o play a part in finding a long-term solution. hyd i ateb tymor hir.

Russell George: As a member of the Russell George: Fel aelod o’r Pwyllgor Petitions Committee, I am pleased to have the Deisebau, rwyf yn falch o’r cyfle i siarad yn opportunity to speak briefly in this debate. I fyr yn y ddadl hon. Ategaf hefyd y diolch a also echo the thanks that the Chair, my roddodd y Cadeirydd, fy nghyd-Aelod colleague William Powell, has given to all William Powell, i bawb a fu’n ymwneud â those who were involved in the production of chynhyrchu’r adroddiad hwn. Hoffwn hefyd

52 10/10/2012 this report. I would also particularly like to ddiolch yn arbennig i’r deisebwyr dan sylw, thank the petitioners involved, for their work am eu gwaith gyda ni a’r pwyllgor blaenorol, with us and with the previous committee, as wrth iddynt barhau â’u hymrwymiad i they continue with their commitment to warchod eu hamgylchedd a’u ffordd o fyw. protect their environment and their way of Fel y gwyddom, ac fel y deuthum i fy hun i life. As we know, and as I have certainly sylweddoli, mae deall ecosystemau cymhleth come to realise, the understanding of yn aml nid yn unig yn dibynnu ar complex ecosystems often relies on not only wyddonwyr proffesiynol yn cynnal ymchwil professional scientists conducting fethodolegol o fewn amgylchedd penodol, methodological research within a given ond hefyd ar wybodaeth leol ac arbenigedd y environment, but local knowledge and the rhai sy’n byw a gweithio yn yr amgylchedd. expertise of those living and working in the Dyna pam y gallaf ddeall y bydd rhywfaint o environment. That is why I can understand siom yn lleol nad yw’r pwyllgor wedi cytuno that there will be a degree of disappointment i gefnogi’r alwad am ymchwiliad cyhoeddus i locally that the committee has not agreed to lygredd carthion yn y gilfach. Fodd bynnag, support the call for a public inquiry into mae casglwyr cocos sy’n gweithio yno o’r sewage pollution at the inlet. However, farn o hyd mai’r llygredd parhaus a chyson cockle gatherers who work there are still yw’r prif reswm dros y marwolaethau cocos convinced that the persistent ongoing sydd wedi cael effaith andwyol ar eu pollution is the main cause of the cockle diwydiant. mortality that has had a devastating impact on their industry.

While the current scientific evidence for the Er bod y dystiolaeth wyddonol ar hyn o bryd interim study concludes that sewage is not to yn yr astudiaeth interim yn dod i’r casgliad blame, it would be remiss of us not to keep nad carthion sydd ar fai, byddem yn esgeulus the issue under review and high on the i beidio â chadw’r mater dan sylw ac yn agenda of the associated organisations. This uchel ar agenda’r sefydliadau sy’n will be particularly true as we go through the gysylltiedig â hyn. Bydd hyn yn arbennig o process of significant organisational change. I wir wrth i ni fynd drwy broses o newid would be interested to hear from the Minister sefydliadol sylweddol. Byddai gennyf how he will do this as the new natural ddiddordeb clywed gan y Gweinidog sut y resource body is created. bydd yn gwneud hyn wrth i’r corff adnoddau naturiol newydd gael ei greu.

I felt that the recommendations made by the Roeddwn yn teimlo bod yr argymhellion a committee were pertinent and robust, and I wnaed gan y pwyllgor yn berthnasol a welcome the Welsh Government’s chadarn, a chroesawaf y ffaith bod acceptance of the majority of those Llywodraeth Cymru wedi derbyn y rhan recommendations. However, I feel that it is fwyaf o’r argymhellion hynny. Fodd bynnag, unfortunate that it could not agree to teimlaf ei bod yn anffodus na allai gytuno i recommendation 6. While I appreciate the argymhelliad 6. Er fy mod yn funds that the Welsh Government has put gwerthfawrogi’r arian a roddodd forward for the scientific investigation, I felt Llywodraeth Cymru i’r ymchwiliad that offering this support would have been a gwyddonol, teimlaf y byddai cynnig y fair step to try to mitigate the loss of the gefnogaeth wedi bod yn gam teg i geisio industry to the many hundreds of cocklers lliniaru problemau colli’r diwydiant i’r who work in the estuary and those whose cannoedd lawer o gasglwyr cocos sy’n lives and livelihoods have been affected gweithio yn yr aber a rhai y cafodd eu considerably over the last decade. bywydau a bywoliaethau eu heffeithio’n sylweddol arnynt dros y degawd diwethaf.

Dŵr Cymru obviously has a crucial role to Yn amlwg, mae gan Dŵr Cymru rôl hanfodol play, and I am pleased that the Government is i’w chwarae, ac rwyf yn falch bod y putting a strong emphasis on its actions and Llywodraeth yn rhoi pwyslais cryf ar ei

53 10/10/2012 will be willing to monitor those actions in gamau ac y bydd yn barod i fonitro’r camau future. I believe that the report is another step hynny yn y dyfodol. Credaf fod yr adroddiad in the ongoing effort to re-establish the Burry yn gam arall yn yr ymdrech barhaus i ail- inlet cockle fishery as a sustainable and sefydlu pysgodfa cocos cilfach Porth Tywyn viable industry for the people who fish there. fel diwydiant cynaliadwy a dichonadwy i’r bobl sy’n pysgota yno.

Bethan Jenkins: I would like to join the Bethan Jenkins: Hoffwn ymuno â Chair of the Petitions Committee in thanking Chadeirydd y Pwyllgor Deisebau i ddiolch i everyone involved with the petition and its bawb a fu’n ymwneud â’r ddeiseb a’r gwaith deliberation by our committee. I think that I o’i thrafod gan ein pwyllgor. Rwy’n credu y should give credit to the Welsh Government dylwn ganmol Llywodraeth Cymru am fod for its involvement in trying to get to the yn rhan o geisio mynd at wraidd y problemau bottom of the problems associated with the sy’n gysylltiedig â’r gwelyau cocos yng cockle beds in the Burry inlet. As it rightly nghilfach Porth Tywyn. Fel y dywed yn iawn says in its response, it has funded an yn ei ymateb, mae wedi ariannu ymchwiliad i investigation into cockle mortality and, as we farwolaethau cocos ac, fel y gwelwn o’r pum can see from the five recommendations that it argymhelliad a dderbyniodd, mae wedi has accepted, it has worked with Dŵr Cymru gweithio gyda Dŵr Cymru i ddod o hyd i to find solutions to sewerage problems there. atebion i’r problemau carthffosiaeth yno. However, I cannot pretend to be anything Fodd bynnag, dim ond siom pur rwyf yn other than dismayed at the fact that the Welsh teimlo am y ffaith bod Llywodraeth Cymru Government has decided to reject wedi penderfynu gwrthod argymhelliad 6, a recommendation 6, which would offer fyddai’n cynnig lefelau tebyg o gefnogaeth i comparable levels of support to the Burry ddiwydiant cocos Porth Tywyn, fel ag y Port cockle industry, as it does to the other gwnaiff i’r ardaloedd eraill sydd wedi colli areas that have suffered the loss of a major prif gyflogwr. Fel y dywed ein hadroddiad, employer. As our report says,

‘regardless of the cause of the mass cockle ‘waeth beth yw achos y marwolaethau cocos mortalities, the result is that cocklers in the di-rif, y canlyniad yw bod casglwyr cocos yn area are now struggling to make a living.’ yr ardal bellach yn cael trafferth gwneud bywoliaeth.’

That is the bare outcome; the fundamental Dyna’r canlyniad plaen; y pwynt sylfaenol na point that we should not lose sight of in all of ddylem golli golwg arno yn hyn i gyd. Er this. By means of offering a solution, the mwyn cynnig ateb, mae’r pwyllgor wedi committee has asked the Welsh Government gofyn i Lywodraeth Cymru weithio i adfywio to work to regenerate the Burry Port area. In ardal Porth Tywyn. Wrth wrthod yr its rejection of the recommendation, the argymhelliad, dywed Llywodraeth Cymru ei Welsh Government states that, alongside bod, ochr yn ochr ag ariannu ymchwiliad funding the two-year Environment Agency dwy flynedd Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd a and University of Hull investigation into Phrifysgol Hull i farwolaethau cocos, mae cockle mortality, the Welsh Government and Llywodraeth Cymru ac Asiantaeth yr the Environment Agency effectively Amgylchedd, i bob pwrpas, yn rhoi subsidise the current licence holders as the cymhorthdal i’r deiliaid trwydded presennol annual costs of management are not gan nad yw’r costau rheoli blynyddol yn cael recovered by the income generated from the eu hadennill gan yr incwm a gynhyrchir o ffi licence fee. However, I think that this misses y drwydded. Fodd bynnag, credaf fod hyn yn the point. As we have heard, a once-thriving methu’r pwynt. Fel y clywsom, mae cockle industry in Carmarthenshire is now a diwydiant cocos a fu unwaith yn llewyrchus shadow of its former self, with cockle pickers yn Sir Gaerfyrddin bellach yn gysgod o’r hyn having to rely on 12 weeks’ work each year. a fu, gyda chasglwyr cocos yn gorfod Thomas Haydn Hughes, chairman of the dibynnu ar 12 wythnos o waith bob Burry Inlet Hand Gatherers Association, blwyddyn. Mae Thomas Haydn Hughes,

54 10/10/2012 claims to have personally lost around cadeirydd Cymdeithas Casglwyr â Llaw £500,000 through cockle mortality in the last Cilfach Porth Tywyn, yn honni iddo’n decade. If it is accepted that what has bersonol golli tua £500,000 drwy happened to the cocklers is not of their own farwolaethau cocos yn y degawd diwethaf. doing, why is it not accepted that the role of Os caiff ei dderbyn nad bai y casglwyr cocos the Government here is to step in and assist, yw’r hyn a ddigwyddodd iddynt, pam nad in the same way that help is given to an area yw’n derbyn mai rôl y Llywodraeth yma yw where a factory closes or regeneration camu i mewn a chynorthwyo, yn yr un ffordd projects are prioritised in former industrial ag y rhoddir cymorth i ardal lle mae ffatri’n areas? cau neu brosiectau adfywio yn cael eu blaenoriaethu mewn hen ardaloedd diwydiannol?

I am struggling a little bit with the Welsh Rwy’n cael ychydig o drafferth deall Government’s logic here. If the logic is not rhesymeg Llywodraeth Cymru yma. Os nad evident, then it is not difficult to arrive at the yw’r rhesymeg yn amlwg, yna mae’n anodd conclusion that the Welsh Government’s osgoi’r casgliad bod penderfyniad decision not to provide assistance or prioritise Llywodraeth Cymru i beidio â darparu regeneration is a wholly financial one, cymorth neu flaenoriaethu adfywio yn un particularly as that would make its entire cwbl ariannol, yn enwedig gan y byddai response cost-neutral. What message does hynny’n gwneud ei ymateb cyfan yn niwtral that give to the cocklers in this area? o ran cost. Pa neges mae hynny’n ei rhoi i’r casglwyr cocos yn yr ardal hon?

However, it is worse than that, unfortunately. Fodd bynnag, mae’n waeth na hynny, yn Carmarthenshire County Council has recently anffodus. Dywedodd Cyngor Sir Caerfyrddin said that the investigation has halted yn ddiweddar fod yr ymchwiliad wedi atal development and regeneration along the datblygu ac adfywio ar hyd arfordir Llanelli. Llanelli coastline. It has directly led to the Mae wedi arwain yn uniongyrchol at golli loss of much-needed jobs and investment in llawer o swyddi a buddsoddiad dirfawr ei the town and surrounding area. The north angen yn y dref a’r ardal gyfagos. Cafodd Wales coast was designated a regeneration arfordir gogledd Cymru ei ddynodi’n ardal area in 2008, with £20 million allocated to adfywio yn 2008, a dyrannwyd £20 miliwn i implement the action for its regeneration for weithredu’r camau ar gyfer ei adfywio am y the first time in three years. It was chosen for tro cyntaf mewn tair blynedd. Fe’i dewiswyd regeneration due to the erosion of the tourism ar gyfer adfywio oherwydd dirywiad y industry in that area, and rightly so. diwydiant twristiaeth yn yr ardal honno, a da o beth hynny.

In Scotland, Dumfries and Galloway Council Yn yr Alban, mae Cyngor Dumfries a have used a themed-town approach to rural Galloway wedi defnyddio trefi thematig fel regeneration, aimed at small towns in rural modd o adfywio cefn gwlad, wedi ei anelu at communities. Themes include Scotland’s drefi bach mewn cymunedau gwledig. Mae’r national book town for Wigtown, artists’ themâu yn cynnwys tref lyfrau genedlaethol town for Kirkcudbright and food town for yr Alban yn Wigtown, tref artistiaid yn Castle Douglas. The Wigtown project was Kirkcudbrigh a thref bwyd yn Castle core funded through European programmes Douglas. Mae’r prosiect yn Wigtown wedi as three separate projects at 50% of eligible derbyn arian craidd drwy raglenni costs. Dumfries and Galloway Council has Ewropeaidd fel tri phrosiect gwahanol am also recently announced the allocation of axis 50% o’r costau cymwys. Mae Cyngor 4 European fisheries funding to its fishing Dumfries a Galloway hefyd yn ddiweddar communities. A diverse range of projects are wedi cyhoeddi dyraniad echel 4 o gyllid eligible to apply, including projects to pysgodfeydd Ewropeaidd i’w gymunedau provide skills training and to enhance pysgota. Mae amryw o brosiectau yn environmental training for local people, gymwys i wneud cais, gan gynnwys

55 10/10/2012 community renewal projects and projects to prosiectau i ddarparu hyfforddiant sgiliau a improve tourism services to attract more gwella hyfforddiant amgylcheddol i bobl leol, visitors. Beneficiaries will also include prosiectau adnewyddu cymunedol a micro, small and medium-sized enterprises, phrosiectau i wella gwasanaethau twristiaeth third sector and public sector organisations. i ddenu mwy o ymwelwyr. Bydd y rhai sy’n Therefore, I ask the Minister to rethink this manteisio yn sgîl hyn hefyd yn cynnwys decision on recommendation 6 and to look mentrau micro, bach a chanolig eu maint, y for ways to find funding to get regeneration trydydd sector a sefydliadau sector under way around the Burry inlet, for all cyhoeddus. Felly, gofynnaf i’r Gweinidog those who bothered to come to speak to us as ailystyried y penderfyniad hwn ar a Petitions Committee and to provide us with argymhelliad 6, a chwilio am ffyrdd o ddod o valuable evidence. Diolch yn fawr. hyd i arian i roi cychwyn ar adfywio o amgylch cilfach Porth Tywyn, er budd pawb a drafferthodd ddod i siarad â ni fel Pwyllgor Deisebau a rhoi tystiolaeth werthfawr i ni. Diolch yn fawr.

Joyce Watson: One of the difficulties with Joyce Watson: Un o’r anawsterau gyda the pollution of the Burry inlet is the number llygredd yng nghilfach Porth Tywyn yw’r of organisations involved. You might have nifer o sefydliadau sy’n rhan o’r broses. thought that that would be an advantage. Gallech dybio y byddai hynny’n fantais. However, some of the Members in this Fodd bynnag, mae gan rai o’r Aelodau yn y Chamber have small children, and I would Siambr hon blant bach, a byddwn yn gofyn ask them to consider their experience. Some, iddynt ystyried eu profiad. Mae gan rai, fel fi, like me, have grandchildren. Whatever stage wyrion. Pa bynnag gyfnod mewn bywyd a of life has been attained, one eternal truth has gyrhaeddwyd, mae’n rhaid dysgu un to be learnt: no children’s party is complete gwirionedd tragwyddol: does yr un parti i without a game of pass the parcel. At the blant yn gyflawn heb gêm o basio’r parsel. higher level of politics, this game is played at Ar lefel uwch o wleidyddiaeth, caiff y gêm a sophisticated level. It is called ‘passing the hon ei chwarae ar lefel soffistigedig. Fe’i buck’ or ‘taking the blame’. gelwir yn ‘pasio’r baich’ neu ‘gymryd y bai’.

In the case of the pollution of the Burry inlet, Yn achos y llygredd yng nghilfach Porth we have three agencies intimately involved. Tywyn, mae tair asiantaeth yn ymwneud yn There is Environment Agency Wales, Dŵr agos â hyn, sef Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd Cymru or Welsh Water and Carmarthenshire Cymru, Dŵr Cymru a Chyngor Sir County Council. They all have their Caerfyrddin. Mae ganddynt i gyd eu expertise, interests and theories. This is harbenigedd, eu diddordebau a’u where devolution and the Welsh Government damcaniaethau. Dyma lle y dylai datganoli a should be crucial. Ultimately, the decision Llywodraeth Cymru fod yn hanfodol. Yn y lies not with the competing agencies, not with pen draw, mae’r penderfyniad yn gorwedd scientists at Whitehall and not with the nid gyda’r asiantaethau sy’n cystadlu yn mandarins of the European Union, but with erbyn ei gilydd, nid gyda’r gwyddonwyr yn the Welsh Government itself. I say this Whitehall na mandariniaid yr Undeb because one of the petitioners’ calls was for a Ewropeaidd, ond gyda Llywodraeth Cymru ei public inquiry. I feel that to be hun. Dywedaf hyn oherwydd mai un o understandable. It seems that it would be the alwadau’r deisebwyr oedd am ymchwiliad most objective solution. However, who can cyhoeddus. Mae hynny’n ddealladwy. doubt the objectivity of Environment Agency Ymddengys mai dyna fyddai’r ateb mwyaf Wales, Dŵr Cymru or Carmarthenshire gwrthrychol. Fodd bynnag, pwy all amau County Council? The great American gwrthrychedd Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd journalist, H.L. Mencken, wrote: Cymru, Dŵr Cymru neu Gyngor Sir Caerfyrddin? Ysgrifennodd y newyddiadurwr Americanaidd o fri, H.L. Mencken:

56 10/10/2012

‘For every complex problem, there is an ‘Ar gyfer pob problem gymhleth, mae ateb answer that is clear, simple and wrong.’ clir, syml ac anghywir.’

We have all had the experience, while Cawsom i gyd y profiad, tra’n canfasio, o canvassing, of meeting the person who gwrdd â’r person sy’n gwybod yr ateb i’r knows the answer to the most difficult broblem anoddaf sy’n hysbys i ddynoliaeth. problem known to humanity. However Waeth pa mor gymhleth mae’r broblem yn seemingly complicated the problem, the ymddangos, mae’r ateb yn chwerthinllyd o answer is spellbindingly obvious and the amlwg a’r syndod yw nad yw’n ymddangos surprise is that no-one seems to have come up bod unrhyw un wedi dod o hyd i’r ateb o’r with the answer before. This, I have to say, is blaen. Mae hyn, rhaid dweud, yn wir yn the case with the pollution of the Burry Port achos y llygredd yng ngilfach Porth Tywyn. inlet.

In 2009, Environment Agency Wales Yn 2009, comisiynodd Asiantaeth yr commissioned a study, carried out by the Amgylchedd Cymru astudiaeth a gynhaliwyd Institute of Estuarine and Coastal Studies at gan y Sefydliad Aberoedd ac Astudiaethau Hull University. Also involved were Swansea Arfordirol ym Mhrifysgol Hull. Yn rhan o University, the Centre for Environment, hyn hefyd oedd Prifysgol Abertawe, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science—better Canolfan yr Amgylchedd, Pysgodfeydd a known as Cefas—Bangor University, the Dyframaethu—yn fwy adnabyddus fel Countryside Council for Wales, the School of Cefas—Prifysgol Bangor, Cyngor Cefn Law at Swansea University and the National Gwlad Cymru, Ysgol y Gyfraith ym Oceanography Centre, Southampton. Dŵr Mhrifysgol Abertawe a’r Ganolfan Eigioneg Cymru Welsh Water has had its operations in Genedlaethol, Southampton. Craffwyd ar the area scrutinised in court and, in April weithrediadau Dŵr Cymru yn yr ardal yn y 2011, was fined £20,000 llys ac, ym mis Ebrill 2011, cafodd ddirwy o £20,000

Joyce Watson continues: and, in April Joyce Watson yn parhau: ac, ym mis Ebrill 2011, was fined £20,000 for discharging 2011, cafodd ddirwy o £20,000 am ollwng sewage into the sea. The courts’ carthion i mewn i’r môr. Mae ystyriaethau’r considerations of the issue are a matter of llysoedd o’r mater i’w gweld mewn public report. The evidence has piled up. adroddiad cyhoeddus. Mae’r dystiolaeth wedi What is needed is a decision. In a democracy, pentyrru. Yr hyn sydd ei angen yw that is the role of the Government. In post- penderfyniad. Mewn democratiaeth, dyna yw devolution Wales, that body is the Welsh rôl y Llywodraeth. Yng Nghymru ôl- Government. ddatganoledig, y corff hwnnw yw Llywodraeth Cymru.

3.15 p.m.

We tend to think of the environment as being Rydym yn tueddu i feddwl am yr separate from people, but that is wrong, and it amgylchedd fel rhywbeth sydd ar wahân i is especially wrong in respect of the Burry bobl, ond mae hynny’n anghywir, ac mae’n port inlet. As the report states, arbennig o anghywir o ran cilfach Porth Tywyn. Fel y dywed yr adroddiad,

‘regardless of the cause of the mass cockle ‘waeth beth yw achos y marwolaethau cocos mortalities, the result is that cocklers in the di-rif, y canlyniad yw bod casglwyr cocos yn area are now struggling to make a living.’ yr ardal bellach yn cael trafferth gwneud bywoliaeth.’

I am very glad, therefore, that the sixth Rwyf yn falch, felly, bod y chweched recommendation states, argymhelliad yn dweud,

57 10/10/2012

‘The Committee recommends that the Welsh ‘Mae’r Pwyllgor yn argymell bod Government offers a similar level of support Llywodraeth Cymru yn cynnig lefel gyffelyb to those affected by the decline of the Burry o gefnogaeth i’r rhai y mae’r dirywiad yn Port cockle industry as it does to other areas niwydiant cocos Porth Tywyn wedi ei who have suffered the loss of a major effeithio arnynt ag y mae’n ei gynnig i employer.’ ardaloedd eraill sydd wedi dioddef yn sgil colli cyflogwr mawr.’

This is a difficult and complex issue. Those Mae hwn yn fater anodd a chymhleth. Mae’r who have provided the evidence have done rhai sydd wedi darparu’r dystiolaeth wedi so with diligence and care. As a committee, gwneud hynny yn ddiwyd a gofalus. Fel we have presented the evidence as clearly as pwyllgor, rydym wedi cyflwyno’r dystiolaeth possible. It is now time for the Welsh mor glir ag y bo modd. Mae’n bryd yn awr i Government to act with the decisiveness that Lywodraeth Cymru weithredu gyda’r those who live and work in the Burry port pendantrwydd y mae’r rhai sy’n byw ac yn inlet expect and, I feel, deserve. gweithio yn nghilfach Porth Tywyn yn ei ddisgwyl ac, rwyf yn teimlo, yn ei haeddu.

Peter Black: I also thank the Petitions Peter Black: Rwyf hefyd yn diolch i’r Committee for its report. I think that the Pwyllgor Deisebau am ei adroddiad. Credaf recommendations are succinct and set out the fod yr argymhellion yn gryno ac yn nodi’r actions that need to be taken in this regard. camau sydd angen eu cymryd yn hyn o beth. This is a cross-border issue. A number of Mae hwn yn fater traws-ffiniol. Bydd nifer o cocklers based in Gower will be affected by gasglwyr cocos yn y Gŵyr yn cael eu the impact of this pollution. I welcome the heffeithio gan effaith y llygredd hwn. fact that Welsh Water is committed to Croesawaf y ffaith bod Dŵr Cymru wedi investing in the sewerage systems of towns ymrwymo i fuddsoddi yn systemau surrounding the Burry inlet, particularly those carthffosiaeth y trefi sydd o amgylch cilfach on Gower, such as Gowerton. However, there Porth Tywyn, yn enwedig y rhai ar Benrhyn is an urgent need for them to get on and do Gŵyr, megis Tre-gŵyr. Fodd bynnag, mae this work. Clearly, the longer it takes to angen brys iddynt fwrw ymlaen â’r gwaith implement this sewage improvement system, hwn. Yn amlwg, po hiraf mae’n ei gymryd i the more we will have these sorts of spills gyflwyno’r system gwella carthion, y mwyaf and issues arising. I do not blame the y byddwn yn cael y mathau hyn o cocklers for blaming those spills for the arllwysiadau a phroblemau. Nid wyf yn impact on their livelihood. There must be rhoi’r bai ar y casglwyr cocos am feio’r some sort of impact there, which needs to be gollyngiadau hynny am yr effaith ar eu taken into account. bywoliaeth. Mae’n rhaid bod hynny’n cael rhyw fath o effaith, sydd angen ei ystyried.

I am quite concerned by the fact that the Rwyf yn bryderus iawn am y ffaith nad yw Welsh Government is not prepared to accept Llywodraeth Cymru yn barod i dderbyn the final recommendation of the committee, argymhelliad olaf y pwyllgor, sef ei bod yn namely that it treats this industry with a trin y diwydiant hwn gyda lefel debyg o similar level of support to those affected as it gefnogaeth i’r rhai yr effeithir arnynt fel ag y would any other major employer. This may byddai unrhyw gyflogwr mawr arall. Efallai well be a small industry in comparison to mai diwydiant bach yw hwn o’i gymharu â Corus, say, or some of the bigger industries Corus, dyweder, neu rai o’r diwydiannau in Cardiff or other bigger towns, but it is a mwy yng Nghaerdydd neu drefi mawr eraill, major employer in the area. When the ond mae’n un o brif gyflogwyr yr ardal. Pan cocklers are not able to carry out their work, na fydd casglwyr cocos yn gallu gwneud eu it has a huge impact on their livelihood and gwaith, mae’n cael effaith enfawr ar eu on the area’s economy. I hope that the bywoliaeth ac ar economi’r ardal. Gobeithio Government will revisit this because, clearly, y bydd y Llywodraeth yn edrych eto ar hyn

58 10/10/2012 given the scale of the industry, such a spill or oherwydd, yn amlwg, o ystyried maint y closing down the ability to harvest cockles diwydiant, gallai arllwysiad o’r fath neu will have an impact on the cocklers’ rwystro’r gallu i gynaeafu cocos gael effaith livelihood and on the economy. The Welsh ar fywoliaeth y casglwyr cocos ac ar yr Government needs to revisit this economi. Mae angen i Lywodraeth Cymru recommendation and think again about the ailedrych ar yr argymhelliad hwn a meddwl level of support that it is prepared to offer. I eto am faint o gymorth y mae’n barod i’w noted that, in its response, it has listed a gynnig. Nodais ei fod yn ei ymateb wedi number of things that it already does for the rhestru nifer o bethau y mae eisoes yn ei industry, but I think that that has been proven wneud i’r diwydiant, ond rwyf yn meddwl to be inadequate in light of the impact on the bod hynny wedi cael ei brofi yn annigonol cocklers and the loss of their livelihood. yng ngoleuni’r effaith ar y casglwyr cocos a Therefore, I hope that the Minister will cholli eu bywoliaeth. Felly, gobeithio y reconsider the response to that particular gwnaiff y Gweinidog ailystyried yr ymateb recommendation. i’r argymhelliad penodol hwnnw.

Byron Davies: I also welcome this report by Byron Davies: Rwyf hefyd yn croesawu’r the Petitions Committee and the opportunity adroddiad hwn gan y Pwyllgor Deisebau a’r to speak to it. As someone who was brought cyfle i siarad amdano. Fel rhywun a fagwyd up on Gower, I probably saw the cockle ar Benrhyn Gŵyr, mae’n debyg i mi weld y industry at its very best, years ago. However, diwydiant cocos ar ei orau, flynyddoedd yn I can tell the Chamber that the industry and ôl. Fodd bynnag, gallaf ddweud wrth y supporting communities on the north side of Siambr fod y diwydiant a’r cymunedau sy’n Gower are very much hurt as a result of this ei gefnogi ar ochr ogleddol Gŵyr wedi cael pollution. cryn ergyd o ganlyniad i’r llygredd hwn.

This is an important industry in South Wales Mae hwn yn ddiwydiant pwysig yng West, and one that has the potential to thrive. Ngorllewin De Cymru, ac yn un sydd â’r If you read the report by Dr Eric Edwards for potensial i ffynnu. Pe baech yn darllen yr the Sea Fish Industry Authority, published as adroddiad gan Dr Eric Edwards ar gyfer far back as 1986, you can get an appreciation Awdurdod y Diwydiant Pysgod Môr, a of the industry’s potential. It has huge gyhoeddwyd mor bell yn ôl ag 1986, gallwch potential, but it has been frittered away by the werthfawrogi potensial y diwydiant. Mae poor performance of the neighbouring ganddo botensial enfawr, ond cafodd ei sewage systems, in my view, and that is also wastraffu gan berfformiad gwael y systemau highlighted in the recommendations. That carthion cyfagos, yn fy marn i, sydd hefyd yn poor performance coupled with pollution cael sylw yn yr argymhellion. Mae’r from the lack of drainage capacity in the perfformiad gwael hwnnw ynghyd â llygredd Llanelli and Burry port area are a blight on oherwydd diffyg draenio yn ardal Llanelli a the important tourism sector. Phorth Tywyn yn aflwydd ar y sector twristiaeth pwysig.

I was, and continue to be, disappointed in the Roeddwn, ac rwy’n parhau i fod, yn siomedig Environment Agency’s inconclusive report. I yn adroddiad amhendant Asiantaeth yr want you to imagine for a second that we Amgylchedd. Rwyf am i chi ddychmygu am were talking about another part of the eiliad ein bod yn siarad am ran arall o’r agricultural sector. Imagine if millions of sector amaethyddol. Dychmygwch pe bai other fish or animal form had been found miliynau o bysgod neu fathau eraill o dead at a lucrative breeding ground. There anifeiliaid wedi eu canfod yn farw mewn would have been uproar and a compensation llecyn bridio proffidiol. Byddai wedi creu package for the industry, which is why I very cynnwrf a phecyn iawndal i’r diwydiant, a much welcome recommendation 6. dyna pam rwyf yn croesawu argymhelliad 6.

It is common belief by local cockle pickers Mae’n gred gyffredin gan gasglwyr cocos that pollution from nearby sewage works is to lleol mai llygredd o waith carthffosiaeth

59 10/10/2012 blame, although water company chiefs gerllaw sydd ar fai, er bod penaethiaid dispute the claim, as we have heard, and the cwmnïau dŵr yn anghydweld, fel y clywsom, Environment Agency cannot find any ac ni all Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd ddod o conclusive proof. It has not been unusual to hyd i unrhyw brawf pendant. Ni fu’n find about 6,000 tonnes of cockles, worth in anarferol dod o hyd i tua 6,000 tunnell o the region of £7 million, being wiped out at gocos, gwerth tua £7 miliwn, yn cael eu dileu Burry inlet. We are talking about potentially ym Mhorth Tywyn. Rydym yn sôn am huge sums for the local economy, as well as symiau enfawr o bosibl i’r economi leol, yn the environmental angle. ogystal â’r agwedd amgylcheddol.

I very much welcome the recommendations Rwy’n croesawu argymhellion yr adroddiad in this report, particularly recommendations 4 hwn yn fawr, yn arbennig argymhellion 4 a 5. and 5. I hope to see definitive action on Rwy’n gobeithio gweld gweithredu pendant pollution in the Burry inlet, not only because ar lygredd ym Mhorth Tywyn, nid yn unig of the implications for cockle breeding, but oherwydd y goblygiadau ar gyfer bridio also because it is the right thing to do. With cocos, ond hefyd oherwydd mai dyma’r peth regular waste quality test results published, iawn i’w wneud. Gyda chanlyniadau profion the community can see the problem for itself. ansawdd gwastraff yn cael eu cyhoeddi’n rheolaidd, gall y gymuned weld y broblem dros ei hun.

I commend this report and I thank the Cymeradwyaf yr adroddiad hwn a diolch i’r committee very much for taking this pwyllgor yn fawr am fwrw ymlaen â’r mater important issue forward, and for listening to pwysig hwn, ac am wrando ar y cymunedau o the communities around Burry inlet. amgylch cilfach Porth Tywyn.

The Minister for Environment and Gweinidog yr Amgylchedd a Datblygu Sustainable Development (John Griffiths): Cynaliadwy (John Griffiths): Dechreuaf I will begin by thanking the committee for its drwy ddiolch i’r pwyllgor am ei waith a’i work and report, and the committee Chair adroddiad, ac i Gadeirydd y pwyllgor a’r and Members for their contributions today. Aelodau am eu cyfraniadau heddiw.

The Burry inlet has a rich history of shellfish Mae gan gilfach Porth Tywyn hanes harvesting and processing, which is of great cyfoethog o gynaeafu a phrosesu pysgod importance to the local economy, as a cregyn, sydd o bwys mawr i’r economi leol, number of Members have rightly mentioned. fel y dywedodd nifer o Aelodau yn gywir. That is why, in 2008, the Welsh Government Dyna pam, yn 2008, y gofynnodd requested an investigation into cockle Llywodraeth Cymru am ymchwiliad i mortality, led by Environment Agency farwolaethau cocos, wedi ei arwain gan Wales. The final report, published earlier this Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd Cymru. Daeth yr year, concluded that no single, clear cause of adroddiad terfynol, a gyhoeddwyd yn the mortalities has been identified and there gynharach eleni, i’r casgliad nad oes unrhyw is no evidence to show that pollution in the achos clir am y marwolaethau wedi cael ei water is a cause of mortalities. In fact, the nodi ac nad oes tystiolaeth i ddangos bod nutrient and organic conditions in the Burry llygredd yn y dŵr yn achosi marwolaethau. inlet are producing good growth of young Yn wir, mae’r amodau maetholion ac organig cockles. Those are the clear findings of the ym Mhorth Tywyn yn cynhyrchu tyfiant da o report, so when Members mention the gocos ifanc. Dyna ganfyddiadau clir yr concern in the area about the cause of the adroddiad, felly pan fydd Aelodau’n sôn am mortalities, they must bear in mind that we y pryder yn yr ardal am achos y commissioned that report, it has been marwolaethau, mae’n rhaid iddynt gadw delivered, and those are its essential findings. mewn cof ein bod wedi comisiynu’r adroddiad hwnnw, ei fo wedi’i gyhoeddi, a dyna yw ei ganfyddiadau hanfodol.

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The report has not been able to identify a Nid yw’r adroddiad wedi gallu nodi un single contributory cause, but it has ffactor unigol a gyfrannodd, ond gwnaeth highlighted a number of areas for further amlygu nifer o feysydd i’w hymchwilio investigation. Following consideration of ymhellach. Yn dilyn ystyriaeth o’r rhain, these, the Environment Agency, as managers cynhaliodd Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd, fel of this fishery, undertook a review of its rheolwyr y bysgodfa hon, adolygiad o’i management arrangements. That review threfniadau rheoli. Daeth yr adolygiad closed on 27 September 2012, and the hwnnw i ben ar 27 Medi 2012, ac mae’r responses are currently being considered. ymatebion yn cael eu hystyried ar hyn o bryd. That answers a point raised in this debate. Mae hynny’n ateb pwynt a godwyd yn ystod y ddadl hon.

The Petitions Committee’s report Mae adroddiad y Pwyllgor Deisebau yn recommends that the Welsh Government argymell bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn cynnig offer support to those affected by the decline cymorth i’r rhai yr effeithiwyd arnynt gan y in the Burry inlet cockle industry, and those dirywiad yn y diwydiant cocos yng nghilfach concerns have featured large in a number of Porth Tywyn, ac mae’r pryderon hynny wedi Members’ contributions. I want to make it cael cryn sylw mewn nifer o gyfraniadau gan clear that the provision of financial support Aelodau. Rwyf am ei gwneud yn glir bod by Government to individual businesses is cymorth ariannol gan y Llywodraeth i governed by strict state aid rules, and support fusnesau unigol yn cael ei lywodraethu gan of this nature is ineligible under the European reolau cymorth gwladwriaethol llym, ac mae fisheries fund 2007-13, which is the cefnogaeth o’r natur hwn yn anghymwys o mechanism available for fisheries support. dan y gronfa pysgodfeydd Ewropeaidd 2007- That is clearly the position and I have 13, sef y mecanwaith sydd ar gael i gefnogi therefore rejected recommendation 6. pysgodfeydd. Dyna’n amlwg yw’r sefyllfa ac However, as I mentioned earlier, we have rwyf felly wedi gwrthod argymhelliad 6. invested a significant amount of money in Fodd bynnag, fel y soniais yn gynharach, investigating the causes of the cockle rydym wedi buddsoddi swm sylweddol o mortalities, and we continue to work closely arian i ymchwilio i’r rhesymau dros with the Environment Agency to ensure that farwolaethau cocos, ac rydym yn parhau i cockle picking in the Burry inlet continues to weithio’n agos gydag Asiantaeth yr be a viable business. Amgylchedd er mwyn sicrhau bod casglu cocos yng nghilfach Porth Tywyn yn parhau i fod yn fusnes hyfyw.

We know through the Environment Agency’s Rydym yn gwybod drwy waith monitro monitoring work that the water quality in the Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd bod ansawdd y estuary is compliant with European directives dŵr yn yr aber yn cydymffurfio â for the mandatory shellfish waters standard. chyfarwyddebau Ewropeaidd ar gyfer y safon Dŵr Cymru/Welsh Water’s assets dyfroedd pysgod cregyn gorfodol. Mae discharging to the inlet are regulated to strict gollwng asedau Dŵr Cymru i’r gilfach yn criteria, but there are still a number of spill cael eu rheoleiddio yn ôl meini prawf llym, events from the sewerage network. Again, ond mae dal nifer o orlifiadau o’r rhwydwaith they have been mentioned by a number of carthffosiaeth. Unwaith eto, cawsant eu Members, including William Powell and crybwyll gan nifer o Aelodau, gan gynnwys Simon Thomas. I agree and we recognise that William Powell a Simon Thomas. Rwy’n Llanelli and Gowerton networks are under cytuno ac rydym yn cydnabod bod strain. That is largely due to excessive rhwydweithiau Llanelli a Thre-gŵyr o dan surface water entering the sewerage network, straen. Mae hynny i’w briodoli’n bennaf i new developments using the network, and ormod o ddŵr wyneb yn mynd i mewn i’r possible misconnections. All this results in a rhwydwaith carthffosiaeth, datblygiadau higher number of spills from overflows newydd yn defnyddio’r rhwydwaith, a within the catchment, and limits the ability of chamgysylltiadau posibl. Mae hyn i gyd yn the networks to handle additional flows arwain at fwy o golledion o orlifiadau yn y

61 10/10/2012 proposed by new development. dalgylch, ac mae’n cyfyngu ar allu’r rhwydweithiau i drin llif ychwanegol a gynigir gan y datblygiad newydd.

That is why the Welsh Government has been Dyna pam mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi bod clear with Dŵr Cymru/Welsh Water and the yn glir gyda Dŵr Cymru ac Asiantaeth yr Environment Agency that it expects Amgylchedd ei bod yn disgwyl i atebion sustainable solutions to be put in place to cynaliadwy gael eu rhoi ar waith i sicrhau ensure that the sewerage network around the bod y rhwydwaith carthffosiaeth o amgylch Burry inlet is adequate to meet current and cilfach Porth Tywyn yn ddigonol i ateb y future demands. I also expect that all galw presennol a’r dyfodol. Rwyf hefyd yn environmental obligations will be met so that disgwyl y bydd yr holl rwymedigaethau water quality in the Burry inlet is safeguarded amgylcheddol yn cael eu bodloni fel bod for the future. Dŵr Cymru has proposed a ansawdd y dŵr ym Mhorth Tywyn yn cael ei detailed programme of work to ensure that ddiogelu ar gyfer y dyfodol. Mae Dŵr Cymru both the Llanelli and Gowerton catchments wedi cynnig rhaglen fanwl o waith i sicrhau have sewerage infrastructure that meets bod dalgylchoedd Llanelli a Thregŵyr yn present and future demands. This programme cael seilwaith carthffosiaeth sy’n bodloni will directly address recommendations 1 and gofynion y presennol a’r dyfodol. Bydd y 3 in the committee’s report. rhaglen yn mynd i’r afael yn uniongyrchol ag argymhellion 1 a 3 yn adroddiad y pwyllgor.

The programme consists of 181 individual Mae’r rhaglen yn cynnwys 181 o brosiectau projects and represents a major investment. It unigol ac mae’n cynrychioli buddsoddiad will be delivered in phases. It is designed to sylweddol. Bydd yn cael ei chyflwyno fesul deliver a sewerage network in both cam. Ei bwriad yw darparu rhwydwaith catchments that can provide for current and carthffosiaeth yn y ddau ddalgylch sy’n gallu future development. The main focus is on darparu ar gyfer datblygu presennol ac yn y retrofitting sustainable drainage systems to dyfodol. Mae’r prif ffocws ar ôl-ffitio remove large amounts of surface water. systemau draenio cynaliadwy i gael gwared There will also be some non-infrastructure ar symiau mawr o ddŵr wyneb. Bydd hefyd improvements. I agree very much with Peter rai gwelliannau nad ydynt yn ymwneud â’r Black’s points about the urgency of this. That seilwaith. Cytunaf yn llwyr â phwyntiau is why I am very pleased to say that work on Peter Black bod angen gwneud hyn ar frys. the programme has already started and will Dyna pam rwyf yn falch iawn o ddweud bod be delivered in three phases, the first to be y gwaith ar y rhaglen wedi dechrau eisoes ac completed by 2015 and the third by 2025. As y bydd yn cael ei gyflwyno mewn tri cham, y William Powell mentioned earlier, there is a cyntaf i gael ei gwblhau erbyn 2015 a’r commitment to ensure that the most trydydd erbyn 2025. Fel y soniodd William important works are front-loaded in this Powell yn gynharach, mae ymrwymiad i work. sicrhau bod y gwaith pwysicaf yn cael y flaenoriaeth fwyaf yn y gwaith hwn.

Each phase has been established with the aim Mae pob cam wedi ei fwriadu er mwyn cael y of delivering the greatest benefits of surface fantais fwyaf o symud dŵr wyneb yn gynnar water removals early in the programme. To yn y rhaglen. I gael gwared ar y dŵr wyneb, remove the surface water, Dŵr Cymru will bydd Dŵr Cymru yn defnyddio nifer o use a number of sustainable drainage system dechnegau system ddraenio cynaliadwy sy’n techniques suitable for high-density areas addas i ardaloedd dwysedd uchel fel Llanelli. such as Llanelli. They have drawn on Maent wedi tynnu ar brofiad o gynlluniau experience from similar successful schemes llwyddiannus tebyg ar draws Ewrop a bydd across Europe and will ensure that the yn sicrhau bod yr atebion yn cael eu teilwra i solutions are tailored to meet the specific fodloni gofynion penodol pob ardal. requirements of each area.

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Tackling surface water at source will Bydd mynd i’r afael â dŵr wyneb yn y contribute to flood-risk management, as well, ffynhonnell yn cyfrannu at reoli risg by naturally reducing the flow and therefore llifogydd hefyd, drwy leihau’r llif yn naturiol slowing down the impact on local ac felly arafu yr effaith ar gyrsiau dŵr lleol. watercourses. Therefore, it will be of wide Felly, bydd o fudd eang i ardaloedd lleol. benefit to local areas. The drainage features Disgwylir hefyd i’r nodweddion draenio fod are also expected to provide benefits for o fantais i well ansawdd dŵr yn ogystal ag improved water quality as well as green areas ardaloedd gwyrdd a fydd yn annog bywyd that will encourage wildlife and provide gwyllt ac yn darparu gwerth amwynder further amenity value to the surrounding pellach i’r gymuned o amgylch. Rwyf yn community. I am very confident that the ffyddiog iawn y bydd y gymuned yn gweld community will see the wide-ranging benefits manteision pellgyrhaeddol y gwaith hwn. of this work. I am confident that this Rwy’n hyderus y bydd y rhaglen waith sydd programme of work that Dŵr Cymru/Welsh gan Dŵr Cymru yn ei lle yn cyflwyno Water has in place will deliver benefits via buddion drwy gyfrwng y seilwaith the sewerage infrastructure and wider carthffosiaeth a manteision ehangach o fewn benefits within the community. I encourage y gymuned. Rwy’n annog cefnogaeth i’r support for this programme from all parties rhaglen hon gan bawb dan sylw. concerned.

As a Welsh Government, we appreciate the Fel Llywodraeth Cymru, rydym yn local concern that remains about these issues, gwerthfawrogi’r pryder lleol sy’n dal i fodoli and we will continue to work with the am y materion hyn, a byddwn yn parhau i community in moving matters forward. weithio gyda’r gymuned wrth symud pethau yn eu blaen.

William Powell: I thank colleagues on the William Powell: Diolch i gydweithwyr ar y Petitions Committee and the wider Assembly Pwyllgor Deisebau a’r Cynulliad ehangach for all their contributions to this important am eu holl gyfraniadau i’r ddadl bwysig hon. debate. I also thank the Minister for his Diolch hefyd i’r Gweinidog am ei ymateb ar response on behalf of the Government. ran y Llywodraeth.

Russell George reminded us of the work done Cawsom ein hatgoffa gan Russell George am by previous committee members, and I thank y gwaith a wnaed gan aelodau blaenorol y them, some of whom are currently present in pwyllgor, a diolchaf iddynt hwy, y mae rhai the Chamber and some of whom are no ohonynt yn bresennol ar hyn o bryd yn y longer Assembly Members, for the energy Siambr a rhai ohonynt nad ydynt bellach yn that they committed to this. Russell George Aelodau Cynulliad, am yr egni a roesant i also spoke about the importance of the hyn. Soniodd Russell George hefyd am natural resources body for Wales in the future bwysigrwydd y corff adnoddau naturiol ar monitoring of this area, which is an important gyfer Cymru o ran monitro’r maes hwn yn y point. Bethan Jenkins made a passionate plea dyfodol, sy’n bwynt pwysig. Gwnaeth on behalf of the cocklers, talking about the Bethan Jenkins ble angerddol ar ran y devastating effect on their livelihood. She casglwyr cocos, gan sôn am yr effaith also made an appeal for a more innovative ddinistriol ar eu bywoliaeth. Roedd hefyd yn approach to regeneration schemes and made gwneud apêl am ddull mwy arloesol at reference to some examples of good practice. gynlluniau adfywio a chyfeiriodd at rai Joyce Watson rightly reminded us of the enghreifftiau o arfer da. Roedd Joyce Watson complexities and difficulties that come with a yn iawn i’n hatgoffa o’r cymhlethdodau a’r multi-agency approach, as well of the fact anawsterau a ddaw yn sgîl dull aml- that, sometimes, answers are not as simple as asiantaeth, yn ogystal â’r ffaith nad yw they might appear. I am grateful also to Peter atebion weithiau mor syml ag maent yn Black for his contribution, pointing out the ymddangos. Rwyf hefyd yn ddiolchgar i wider impacts in the Gower and the wider Peter Black am ei gyfraniad, a thynnodd sylw Swansea bay area, and I join other colleagues at yr effeithiau ehangach yn y Gŵyr ac ardal

63 10/10/2012 in making a plea for a rethink on ehangach bae Abertawe, ac ymunaf â recommendation 6. The Minister has given us chydweithwyr eraill i wneud ple i ailystyried some context on that, which I will come to in argymhelliad 6. Mae'r Gweinidog wedi rhoi a moment, but it is a matter of rhywfaint o gyd-destun i hynny, a byddaf yn disappointment to many. dod at hynny mewn munud, ond mae'n fater o siom i lawer.

3.30 p.m.

It was good to hear Byron Davies recalling Roedd yn dda clywed Byron Davies yn dwyn childhood memories of happier times for the i gof atgofion plentyndod hapusach am cockling sector. That is a matter of particular amseroedd gwell i’r sector cocos. Mae importance to him and his own story as well hynny’n arbennig o bwysig iddo ef a’i stori as to the cocklers of the Carmarthen and yn ogystal ag i gasglwyr cocos o ardaloedd Swansea bay areas. He also referenced the bae Caerfyrddin ac Abertawe. Cyfeiriodd tourism impact that is so important and that hefyd at yr effaith ar dwristiaeth sydd mor we should not forget. In addition to that, he bwysig ac na ddylem ei anghofio. Yn ogystal made a potentially valid comparison with â hynny, gwnaeth gymhariaeth ddilys â certain agricultural disasters and the impact thrychinebau amaethyddol penodol a’r effaith that they have as well as the support structure a gânt, yn ogystal â’r strwythur cefnogi sy’n that is put in place for those. cael ei roi ar waith ar eu cyfer.

The Minister, in his response, gave us chapter Yn ei ymateb, manylodd y Gweinidog ar and verse on a number of the initiatives that nifer o’r mentrau sydd ar waith a rhoddodd are taking place and some useful reassurance sicrwydd defnyddiol ar yr amserlen a’r on the timescale and the frontloading of the flaenoriaeth a roddir i’r mesurau sy’n cael eu measures that are being put in place to rhoi ar waith i fynd i’r afael â hyn. Eglurodd address this. He also explained the hefyd am y cyfyngiadau a’r anawsterau o ran restrictions and difficulties around state aids cymorth gwladwriaethol a oedd wedi that had influenced the Government in its dylanwadu ar benderfyniad y Llywodraeth— decision—the decision that we nevertheless penderfyniad yr ydym, serch hynny, yn regret and feel should merit further attention anghytuno ag ef ac yn teimlo y dylai gael because of the impact that the cocklers sylw pellach oherwydd yr effaith y mae’r continue to suffer. casglwyr cocos yn parhau i ddioddef.

In conclusion, I hope that today’s debate and I gloi, rwyf yn gobeithio y bydd dadl heddiw the report that we have worked on will make a’r adroddiad y buom yn gweithio arno yn a contribution in this area. I would also like cyfrannu at y maes hwn. Hoffwn hefyd to thank our absent colleague, Keith Davies, ddiolch i’n cydweithiwr absennol, Keith for his keen interest in these matters and his Davies, am ei ddiddordeb brwd yn y materion presence at the site visit, which was hyn a’i bresenoldeb yn yr ymweliad â’r safle facilitated by councillor Bill Thomas, and by a hwyluswyd gan y cynghorydd Bill Thomas, Rhys Williams, who was also influential in a Rhys Williams, a oedd hefyd yn organising that meeting and making it such ddylanwadol wrth drefnu’r cyfarfod hwnnw, an important part of our evidence gathering. a’i wneud yn rhan mor bwysig o’n gwaith o gasglu tystiolaeth.

I also wish to thank Abigail Philips, former Hoffwn hefyd ddiolch i Abigail Philips, cyn clerk to the Petitions Committee, and Naomi glerc i’r Pwyllgor Deisebau, a Naomi Stocks, Stocks, who has now returned to that role, sydd bellach wedi dychwelyd i’r rôl hwnnw, and the wider team for all of their work and a’r tîm ehangach am eu holl waith a support in making possible our work. I hope chefnogaeth i wneud ein gwaith yn bosibl. that, together, we can make a contribution to Rwyf yn gobeithio, gyda’n gilydd, y gallwn improving the lot of the cockle pickers in wneud cyfraniad i wella bywyd y casglwyr their search for a renaissance in their cocos yn eu gwaith o chwilio am adfywiad yn

64 10/10/2012 industry. eu diwydiant.

The Presiding Officer: The proposal is to Y Llywydd: Y cynnig yw nodi adroddiad y note the Petitions Committee report. Does Pwyllgor Deisebau. A oes unrhyw un sy’n anyone object? I see that there are no gwrthwynebu? Gwelaf nad oes unrhyw objections. Therefore, the motion is agreed in wrthwynebiad. Mae’r cynnig, felly, wedi’i accordance with Standing Order No. 12.36. dderbyn, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 12.36.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig. Motion agreed.

Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd (David Melding) i’r Gadair am 3.33 p.m. The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Melding) took the Chair at 3.33 p.m.

Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig Welsh Conservatives Debate

Yr Economi The Economy

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Rwyf wedi dethol The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have gwelliannau 1 a 2 yn enw Jane Hutt, selected amendments 1 and 2 in the name of gwelliant 3 yn enw Jocelyn Davies, a Jane Hutt, amendment 3 in the name of gwelliannau 4, 5 a 6 yn enw Aled Roberts. Jocelyn Davies, and amendments 4, 5 and 6 in the name of Aled Roberts.

Cynnig NDM5058 William Graham Motion NDM5058 William Graham

Mae Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru: The National Assembly for Wales:

1. Yn croesawu’r camau a gymerwyd gan 1. Welcomes steps taken by the UK Lywodraeth y DU i ysgogi’r economi, Government to stimulate the economy, uwchraddio’r seilwaith a chreu swyddi yng upgrade infrastructure and create jobs in Nghymru. Wales.

2. Yn gresynu bod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi 2. Regrets that the Welsh Government has methu â defnyddio’r dulliau sydd ar gael iddi failed to utilise the tools at its disposal to i dyfu economi Cymru. grow the Welsh economy.

3. Yn annog Llywodraeth Cymru i weithio’n 3. Encourages the Welsh Government to adeiladol gyda Llywodraeth y DU i sicrhau work constructively with the UK Government ffyniant i bobl Cymru. to deliver prosperity for the people of Wales.

Byron Davies: I move the motion. Byron Davies: Cynigiaf y cynnig.

It gives me great pleasure to lead this debate Mae’n bleser mawr i mi arwain y ddadl hon today on behalf of the Welsh Conservatives. heddiw ar ran y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig. Y This morning, our Prime Minister outlined in bore yma, amlinellodd ein Prif Weinidog yn his speech to the Conservative faithful how ei araith i ffyddloniaid y Ceidwadwyr sut y Britain can deliver. I and my colleagues in gall Prydain gyflawni. Rwyf i a fy the Welsh Conservatives firmly believe that nghydweithwyr yn y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig with firm leadership and firm strategy, there yn credu’n gryf, o gael arweinyddiaeth is no doubt that Wales can also work and gadarn a strategaeth gadarn, y gall Cymru

65 10/10/2012 deliver. hefyd weithio a chyflawni.

Wales can work and should be offered every Gall Cymru weithio a dylid cynnig bob cyfle chance. If only this Labour Government here iddi wneud hynny. Pe bai’r Lywodraeth would engage constructively with our UK Lafur yma ond yn ymgysylltu’n adeiladol colleagues to maximise the potential of the gyda’n cydweithwyr yn y DU i fanteisio i’r massive investment that the Conservative-led eithaf ar botensial y buddsoddiad anferth y UK Government is making in Wales. This mae Llywodraeth y DU dan arweiniad y morning, I took part in a cross-party rail Ceidwadwyr yn ei wneud yng Nghymru. Y group, where we discussed the huge potential bore yma, cymerais ran mewn grŵp for the south Wales economy with the trawsbleidiol ar reilffyrdd, lle buom yn trafod investment of electrification. The Swansea to y potensial aruthrol i economi de Cymru London upgrade is worth over £1 billion gyda’r buddsoddiad i drydaneiddio. Mae while the south Wales local lines are worth uwchraddio’r llinell rhwng Abertawe a £350 million. This type of investment in Llundain werth dros £1 biliwn tra bod y infrastructure speaks louder than words. buddsoddiad yn llinellau lleol de Cymru Conservatives are putting their money where werth £350 miliwn. Mae’r math hwn o their mouths are, unlike the Government fuddsoddiad mewn seilwaith yn dweud here, which overspends on infrastructure to llawer. Mae’r Ceidwadwyr yn rhoi eu harian the tune of almost £1 billion. You cannot spin ar waith yn lle siarad amdano, yn wahanol i’r on that because the Wales Audit Office told Llywodraeth hon, sydd wedi gorwario bron us that—it is a fact. You are wasting the £1 biliwn ar seilwaith. Ni allwch roi sbin ar Welsh people’s hopes and aspirations with hynny oherwydd Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru dogma and tribal politics. ddywedodd hynny wrthym—mae’n ffaith. Rydych yn gwastraffu gobeithion a dyheadau pobl Cymru gyda dogma a gwleidyddiaeth lwythol.

Wales can work and with the Welsh Gall Cymru weithio a byddai’n gwneud Conservatives it would. We only have to look hynny gyda’r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig. Nid oes at the announcement of the Chancellor of the ond raid i ni edrych ar gyhoeddiad Exchequer this week—he gave us a radical Canghellor y Trysorlys yr wythnos hon— change to employment law with a voluntary cyflwynodd newid radical i gyfraith three-way deal that presents a new owner- cyflogaeth gyda bargen wirfoddol dair ffordd employee contract, allowing business owners sy’n cyflwyno contract newydd rhwng to award shares worth up to £50,000 to their perchnogion a gweithwyr, gan ganiatáu i staff in return for the employee giving up berchnogion busnes roi cyfranddaliadau certain employment rights. That is about gwerth hyd at £50,000 i’w staff yn gyfnewid empowerment and ownership. The am weithiwr yn rhoi’r gorau i rai hawliau Government would then charge no capital cyflogaeth. Mae a wnelo hynny â grymuso a gains tax on the profit you made from your pherchnogaeth. Ni fyddai’r Llywodraeth shares—owners, workers, and the taxman all wedyn yn codi unrhyw dreth enillion cyfalaf in it together. Alongside this in England, ar yr elw a wnaethoch o’ch there will now be a clear entire economic cyfranddaliadau—byddai cyd-ddealltwriaeth strategy, which is an enterprise strategy, rhwng y perchnogion, y gweithwyr a’r dyn emphasising again that Conservatives are in treth. Ochr yn ochr â hyn yn Lloegr, bydd yn government for people who aspire. His awr strategaeth economaidd glir a chyfan, sef comments outlined that wealth creation strategaeth menter, sy’n pwysleisio unwaith should not be penalised in favour of eto bod y Ceidwadwyr mewn llywodraeth i indulging in the lazy politics of envy, which bobl uchelgeisiol. Dywedodd yn ei sylwadau is all too apparent, I am afraid, in this na ddylid cosbi creu cyfoeth o blaid institution. ymfoddhau mewn gwleidyddiaeth o genfigen ddiog, sydd yn amlwg iawn, mae arnaf ofn, yn y sefydliad hwn.

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This economic strategy shines when Mae’r strategaeth economaidd hon yn compared with the attitude of Ministers in disgleirio o’i gymharu ag agwedd this Government. Your ambitions for Gweinidogion yn y Llywodraeth hon. Mae enterprise zones in Wales are, frankly, quite eich uchelgais chi ar gyfer ardaloedd menter hazy. Your manufacturing strategy— yng Nghymru yn eithaf niwlog, a bod yn onest. Mae eich strategaeth gweithgynhyrchu—

David Rees: Will you take an intervention? David Rees: A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad?

Byron Davies: Yes, certainly. Byron Davies: Gwnaf, yn sicr.

David Rees: You mentioned the economic David Rees: Gwnaethoch sôn am y strategy. Do you agree that, in fact, your strategaeth economaidd. A ydych yn cytuno Government’s manufacturing strategy of bod strategaeth gweithgynhyrchu eich increasing carbon taxes and energy prices, Llywodraeth chi o gynyddu trethi carbon a and now rail freight charges on companies, is phrisiau ynni, ac yn awr godi taliadau cludo damaging industry in Wales, not benefitting nwyddau rheilffordd ar gwmnïau, mewn it? gwirionedd yn niweidio diwydiant yng Nghymru, ac nid yn ei helpu?

Byron Davies: No, I do not, frankly, in short. Byron Davies: Nag wyf, a dweud y gwir, yn gryno.

Therefore, as I was saying, as a Government, Felly, fel roeddwn yn ei ddweud, fel your manufacturing strategy is still lacking, Llywodraeth, mae eich strategaeth and, in terms of investment in the private gweithgynhyrchu yn dal yn ddiffygiol, ac, o sector, many of your arm’s-length bodies, ran buddsoddi yn y sector preifat, nid yw such as the regeneration investment fund for llawer o’ch cyrff hyd braich, megis y gronfa Wales, simply are not lending, and indeed buddsoddi mewn adfywio ar gyfer Cymru, yn have not lent. Wales can work, but only benthyg arian, nac wedi gwneud hynny. Gall within a strong United Kingdom that is free Cymru weithio, ond dim ond o fewn Teyrnas of envy and tribal borders; best practice Unedig gref sy’n rhydd o ffiniau eiddigedd a should be embraced regardless of which side llwythol; dylid arddel arfer da waeth ba ochr of the border it emerges from. i’r ffin y mae’n ymddangos.

Before moving on to the amendments and our Cyn symud ymlaen at y gwelliannau a’n response to them, I wish to touch on the hymateb iddynt, hoffwn gyfeirio at yr agenda respect agenda. The Minister for Business, parch. Yn anffodus, mae’r Gweinidog Enterprise, Technology and Science sadly Busnes, Menter, Technoleg a Gwyddoniaeth encompasses all that is wrong with this yn cwmpasu popeth sy’n bod ar yr agenda agenda in Wales. It takes a long-running hon yng Nghymru. Mae’n cymryd ymgyrch campaign by the Welsh Conservatives, and hir gan y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig, a’r the media, to get the Minister to hold token- cyfryngau, i gael y Gweinidog i gynnal gesture meetings with her counterparts in the cyfarfodydd tocenistaidd gyda’i chymheiriaid UK Government. The Minister’s greatest yn Llywodraeth y DU. Camp fwyaf y achievement in her opening months in Gweinidog yn ei misoedd cyntaf o ran ei relation to her responsibility for business was chyfrifoldeb am fusnes oedd sôn ar goedd am to go on record with her regrets about the ei hedifeirwch am y system gyfalafol, gan capitalist system, trying to take the Labour geisio mynd â strategaeth menter y Government’s enterprise strategy back to Llywodraeth Lafur yn ôl i Karl Marx ac Karl Marx and Engels. That is simply not Engels. Nid yw hynny’n ddigon da. Gall good enough. Wales can work, but not with Cymru weithio, ond nid pan fo materion fel issues like these being emphasised at hyn yn cael eu pwysleisio ar lefel y

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Government level. Llywodraeth.

Finally, I turn to the amendments. We will Yn olaf, trof at y gwelliannau. Byddwn yn vote against amendment 1, which is a pleidleisio yn erbyn gwelliant 1, sy’n welliant churlish amendment that seeks to delete pigog sy’n ceisio dileu ‘yn croesawu’ a rhoi ‘welcomes’ and replace it with ‘notes’. This ‘nodi’ yn ei le. Mae’r gwelliant hwn yn amendment just demonstrates the depth of dangos pa mor euog y mae’n rhaid ichi guilt you must feel in that it again takes a deimlo mai Llywodraeth dan arweiniad y Conservative-led Government to invest in Ceidwadwyr, unwaith eto, sy’n buddsoddi yn Wales’s infrastructure. We are also against seilwaith Cymru. Rydym hefyd yn erbyn amendment 2; you are shirking your gwelliant 2; rydych yn osgoi eich responsibilities, much as you have since the cyfrifoldebau, fel ag y gwnaethoch i raddau first day of this Assembly, which has been helaeth ers diwrnod cyntaf y Cynulliad hwn, for far too long in my view. We will abstain sydd wedi bod yn gyfnod llawer rhy hir yn fy on amendment 3, not because we do not have marn i. Byddwn yn ymatal ar welliant 3, nid a view on it but because we do not believe oherwydd nad oes gennym farn arno, ond that it is right to prejudice the Silk oherwydd nad ydym yn credu ei bod yn iawn commission. As has previously been stated, mynegi barn cyn y gwnaiff comisiwn Silk. we will not rule anything in or out at this Fel y dywedwyd o’r blaen, ni fyddwn yn point. Interestingly, the Silk commission diystyru unrhyw beth ar hyn o bryd. Yn again proves how the Welsh Conservatives ddiddorol, mae comisiwn Silk unwaith eto yn are not afraid of embarrassing the profi nad yw’r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig yn ofni Government by leading on devolution. Our creu embaras i’r Llywodraeth drwy arwain ar Secretary of State promised a commission, ddatganoli. Gwnaeth ein Hysgrifennydd and we got one. As Dr Kim Howells said of Gwladol addo comisiwn, a chawsom un. Fel his Labour Government, constitutional issues y dywedodd Dr Kim Howells am ei raised very difficult questions, so the Labour Lywodraeth Lafur, mae materion Government stayed away from them. We cyfansoddiadol yn codi cwestiynau anodd support amendments 4, 5 and 6. iawn, felly cadwodd y Llywodraeth Lafur draw ohonynt. Rydym yn cefnogi gwelliannau 4, 5 a 6.

In closing, our motion wants to help you, as a Wrth gloi, mae ein cynnig yn awyddus i’ch Government, to focus your mind on what helpu, fel Llywodraeth, i ganolbwyntio ar yr really matters. As Bill Clinton famously said, hyn sy’n wirioneddol bwysig. I ddyfynnu ‘It’s the economy, stupid’. I will leave you geiriau enwog, Bill Clinton, ‘It’s the with that thought, in the hope that we will see economy, stupid’. Fe’ch gadawaf gyda some positive action, and not just rhetoric, hynny, yn y gobaith y byddwn yn gweld from the Welsh Government. rhywfaint o weithredu cadarnhaol, ac nid dim ond rhethreg gan Lywodraeth Cymru.

Gwelliant 1—Jane Hutt Amendment 1—Jane Hutt

Ym mhwynt 1, dileu ‘croesawu’r’ a rhoi In point 1, delete ‘welcomes’ and replace ‘nodi’r’ yn ei le. with ‘notes’.

Gwelliant 2—Jane Hutt Amendment 2—Jane Hutt

Dileu pwynt 2. Delete point 2.

The Minister for Business, Enterprise, Y Gweinidog Busnes, Menter, Technoleg a Technology and Science (Edwina Hart): I Gwyddoniaeth (Edwina Hart): Cynigiaf move amendments 1 and 2 in the name of welliannau 1 a 2 yn enw Jane Hutt. Jane Hutt.

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Gwelliant 3—Jocelyn Davies Amendment 3—Jocelyn Davies

Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y Add as new point at end of motion: cynnig:

Yn annog Llywodraeth Cymru i geisio Encourages the Welsh Government to seek pwerau benthyca gwirioneddol ac i greu meaningful borrowing powers and to create cwmni hyd braich, nad yw’n talu difidend, i a non-dividend-paying arm’s length company ariannu prosiectau cyfalaf newydd. to fund new capital projects.

Alun Ffred Jones: Cynigiaf welliant 3 yn Alun Ffred Jones: I move amendment 3 in enw Jocelyn Davies. the name of Jocelyn Davies.

Mae thema’r gwelliant hwn yn un cyfarwydd The theme of this amendment will be familiar i bawb yn y Siambr, ac mae cryn gyd-weld ar to everyone in the Chamber, and there is, by draws y Siambr hefyd, erbyn hyn, ar y ddau now, some agreement across the Chamber on fater, sef hawliau benthyca a ffynhonnell o the two issues of borrowing powers and a arian preifat i gwmni di-elw er mwyn ariannu source of private funding for a not-for-profit prosiectau cyfalaf yn y sector cyhoeddus. company to fund capital projects in the public Mae’n ddrwg gennyf glywed y bydd y sector. I am sorry to hear that the Tories, who Torïaid, sydd wedi dangos rhyw fath o have shown some support for these ideas in gefnogaeth i’r syniadau hyn yn y gorffennol, the past, will abstain on this amendment on yn ymatal rhag pleidleisio ar y gwelliant hwn, the basis that they would not want to ar y sail nad ydynt eisiau rhagfarnu prejudice ongoing negotiations elsewhere. I trafodaethau sy’n digwydd mewn lleoedd am afraid that the Tories have an obsession eraill. Mae arnaf ofn fod gan y Torïaid with what happens in England—not that I obsesiwn â’r hyn sy’n digwydd yn Lloegr— disagree with what they have to say in their nid fy mod yn anghytuno â’r hyn y maent yn motion. Of course, there should be ei nodi yn eu cynnig. Wrth gwrs, fe ddylai collaboration between the two fod cydweithio rhwng y ddwy Lywodraeth— Governments—that is crucially important— mae hynny’n hanfodol—ond mae gwrthod but I find it astonishing that they would pleidleisio o blaid rhywbeth sy’n cynnig refuse to vote in favour of something that gwelliannau i Gymru yn fy rhyfeddu yn fawr. could bring real benefits to Wales.

The outcome for public spending is bleak. Mae’r rhagolygon ar gyfer gwariant We know of the coalition Government’s cyhoeddus yn llwm. Gwyddom am plans, and indeed, from statements made in gynlluniau y Llywodraeth glymblaid, ac, yn the Labour Party conference, it would seem wir, o’r datganiadau a wnaed yn that it would not reverse the cuts that have nghynhadledd y Blaid Lafur, mae’n already been made. In a sobering report to the ymddangos na fyddai’n gwyrdroi’r toriadau WLGA last week, it is estimated that sydd eisoes wedi eu gwneud. Mewn spending per head in local authorities in adroddiad sobreiddiol i Gymdeithas Wales is already 8.5% lower than it was in Llywodraeth Leol Cymru yr wythnos 2009-10. That is a loss of a third of the gains diwethaf, amcangyfrifir bod gwariant y pen made in the previous nine years. By 2016-17, mewn awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru eisoes a further reduction of 9% is on the board, 8.5% yn is nag yr oedd yn 2009-10. Mae and, unless vigorous growth returns to the hynny’n colli traean o’r enillion a wnaed yn economy, that loss could even reach 20% by ystod y naw blynedd flaenorol. Erbyn 2016- 2020. That is the scale of the challenge. The 17, mae gostyngiad pellach o 9% ar y gweill, background to all this is stagnant take-home ac oni bai bod tyfiant egnïol yn dychwelyd i’r pay, high unemployment figures—if you take economi, gallai’r golled honno hyd yn oed the International Labour Organisation figures gyrraedd 20% erbyn 2020. Dyna faint yr her. especially, and, indeed, the Centre for Y cefndir i hyn oll yw cyflogau llonydd, Economic and Business Research Ltd ffigurau diweithdra uchel—os ydych yn projects that the percentage will remain cymryd ffigurau y Sefydliad Llafur

69 10/10/2012 above 9% in Wales up to 2016—a fourfold Rhyngwladol yn arbennig, ac, yn wir, mae’r increase among those under 24 who are on Ganolfan Ymchwil Economaidd a Busnes jobseeker’s allowance, and 50,000 young Cyf yn rhagweld y bydd y canran yn parhau people in Wales not in work. That is why we yn uwch na 9% yng Nghymru hyd at 2016— in the Party of Wales have argued, and have cynnydd o bedair gwaith ymysg y rhai dan 24 been proved right I believe, that a further sydd ar lwfans ceisio gwaith, a 50,000 o bobl financial stimulus via capital projects is the ifanc yng Nghymru nad ydynt mewn gwaith. best short and medium-term response to a Dyna pam rydym ym Mhlaid Cymru wedi sluggish economy. It is one of the few tools dadlau, a thybiaf y cawsom ein profi’n iawn, in the bag at the moment. mai ysgogiad ariannol pellach drwy brosiectau cyfalaf yw’r ymateb gorau yn y tymor byr a chanolig i economi swrth. Mae’n un o’r ychydig arfau sydd gennym ar hyn o bryd.

Antoinette Sandbach: Do you agree that the Antoinette Sandbach: A ydych yn cytuno y capital stimulus provided by the bydd yr ysgogiad cyfalaf a ddaw yn sgîl electrification of the railway lines, and not trydaneiddio’r rheilffyrdd, yn ogystal â only that, but broadband and mobile gwella technoleg band eang a symudol, yn improvement, will put £57 million into the rhoi £57 miliwn i’r economi, yn ogystal â’r economy, plus the £1 billion that Byron £1 biliwn y cyfeiriodd Byron Davies ato, o Davies referred to, in terms of infrastructure ran buddsoddi yn y seilwaith yng Nghymru, investment in Wales, and that that will ac y bydd hynny’n gwella’r sefyllfa yma? improve the situation here?

Alun Ffred Jones: Indeed, and I Alun Ffred Jones: Yn wir, ac rwyf wedi acknowledged the fact that I agreed with the cydnabod y ffaith fy mod yn cytuno â’r statements and proposals that you have made; datganiadau a’r cynigion a wnaethpwyd I accept that entirely. gennych chi; rwyf yn derbyn hynny’n llwyr.

The right to borrow in order to invest has Mae’r hawl i fenthyg er mwyn buddsoddi already been won in Scotland and Northern eisoes wedi ei hennill yn yr Alban a Gogledd Ireland, and I am amazed that Labour did not Iwerddon, ac rwyf yn rhyfeddu na wnaeth do this when it had the power to do Llafur rywbeth am hyn pan roedd ganddi’r something about it in Westminster. That was pŵer i wneud hynny yn San Steffan. Dyna the time to stand up for Wales. The Party of oedd yr amser i sefyll i fyny dros Gymru. Wales has consistently argued for these Mae Plaid Cymru wedi dadlau’n gyson am y powers, emphasising the rickety and pwerau hyn, gan bwysleisio natur simsan a piecemeal nature of the Welsh devolution thameidiog setliad datganoli Cymru. Mae settlement. The Party of Wales also proposed Plaid Cymru hefyd wedi cynnig creu cwmni the creation of a not-for-dividend company, di-ddifidend, yn seiliedig ar fodel Glas based on the Glas Cymru model, to borrow Cymru, i fenthyg arian ar y farchnad bond i money on the bond market to finance public ariannu prosiectau sector cyhoeddus. Fe’i sector projects. We called it Build for Wales; galwom yn Adeiladu ar gyfer Cymru; mae’r the Government this afternoon has made Llywodraeth y prynhawn yma wedi rhoi great play of the fact that it has invented a pwys mawr ar y ffaith ei bod wedi dyfeisio new name for it. That is fine; if it makes the enw newydd ar ei gyfer. Mae hynny’n iawn; Government happy and if it thinks that it is a os yw’n gwneud y Llywodraeth yn hapus ac new animal, then it is fine by me. It should be os yw’n credu ei fod yn anifail newydd, mae a profit-making and not-for-dividend vehicle, hynny’n iawn gen i. Dylai fod yn gyfrwng and not the discredited PFI model, which was gwneud elw ac di-ddifidend, ac nid y model a Tory invention, of course, pursued PFI bondigrybwyll, a oedd yn ddyfais y vigorously by the Labour Government in Torïaid, wrth gwrs, ac a ddilynwyd yn frwd London. gan y Llywodraeth Lafur yn Llundain.

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I will make two further points. Whether it is Mae gennyf ddau bwynt arall. P’un a yw’n more borrowing powers or a new vehicle for fwy o bwerau benthyca neu’n gyfrwng raising money on the bond market, it is not a newydd i godi arian ar y farchnad bond, ni free lunch. It will cost and it will mean that ddaw am ddim. Bydd yn costio a bydd yn revenue will have to be used in order to golygu y bydd yn rhaid defnyddio refeniw er finance the borrowing. However, the benefits mwyn ariannu’r benthyciad. Fodd bynnag, for Wales are clear in terms of job creation mae’r manteision i Gymru yn glir o ran creu and improved infrastructure, be that of swyddi a gwell seilwaith, boed hynny o ran schools, housing or transport, and it will also ysgolion, tai neu gludiant, a bydd hefyd yn improve the prospects of Welsh companies in gwella rhagolygon cwmnïau Cymru o ran terms of employment and skills training. In cyflogaeth a hyfforddiant sgiliau. Mewn fact, this is a win-win situation and I am very gwirionedd, mae hon yn sefyllfa lle mae happy that we have been able once again to pawb ar eu hennill, ac rwy’n hapus iawn ein emphasise the importance of this for the bod, unwaith eto, wedi gallu pwysleisio future of Wales and for the short-term and pwysigrwydd hyn ar gyfer dyfodol Cymru, ac medium-term benefits to the economy. ar gyfer y manteision tymor byr a chanolig i’r economi.

Gwelliant 4—Aled Roberts Amendment 4—Aled Roberts

Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y Add as new point at end of motion: cynnig:

Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i wneud Calls on the Welsh Government to make cynnydd ar Ardaloedd Menter, diwygio progress on Enterprise Zones, business rates ardrethi busnes, strategaeth weithgynhyrchu reform, a manufacturing strategy and a band eang ar gyfer busnesau fel mater o broadband for business as a matter of frys, er mwyn helpu i ysgogi’r economi. urgency, in order to help stimulate the economy.

Gwelliant 5—Aled Roberts Amendment 5—Aled Roberts

Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y Add as new point at end of motion: cynnig:

Yn croesawu’r ffaith bod Llywodraeth y DU Welcomes the establishment by the UK wedi sefydlu Banc Buddsoddi Gwyrdd, fel Government of a Green Investment bank, as a ffordd o helpu i ysgogi’r economi. means to help stimulate the economy.

Gwelliant 6—Aled Roberts Amendment 6—Aled Roberts

Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y Add as new point at end of motion: cynnig:

Yn nodi pa mor bwysig i Gymru yw Notes the importance to Wales of upgrading uwchraddio’r seilwaith rheilffyrdd drwy rail infrastructure through electrification, drydaneiddio, yn ogystal â’r manteision yn and the benefits this will bring to the sgîl hyn i’r economi, ac yn galw ar economy, and calls on the Welsh Government Lywodraeth Cymru i weithio gyda to work with the UK Government to electrify Llywodraeth y DU i drydaneiddio prif the North Wales mainline. reilffordd gogledd Cymru.

Eluned Parrott: I move amendments 4, 5 Eluned Parrott: Cynigiaf welliannau 4, 5 a 6 and 6 in the name of Aled Roberts. yn enw Aled Roberts.

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I thank the Conservative group for bringing Hoffwn ddiolch i grŵp y Ceidwadwyr am forward this debate. Tackling Wales’s gyflwyno’r ddadl hon. Gellid dadlau mae economic problems is arguably the biggest mynd i’r afael â phroblemau economaidd challenge facing this Assembly and not one Cymru yw’r her fwyaf sy’n wynebu’r that can be addressed in weeks or months in Cynulliad hwn, ac nid yw’n un y gellir mynd any meaningful way. We all recognise that i’r afael â hi yn yr wythnosau neu fisoedd those problems are complex and of very long nesaf mewn unrhyw ffordd ystyrlon. Rydym i standing. It is my personal opinion that gyd yn cydnabod bod y problemau hynny yn turning this around is more likely to be the gymhleth a’u bod wedi bodoli ers amser work of a generation than that of a single maith. Fy marn bersonol i yw bod newid hyn Assembly term, which makes it more yn fwy tebygol o fod yn waith cenhedlaeth yn important than ever that we are able as an hytrach nag un tymor yn y Cynulliad, sy’n ei Assembly to work effectively together to gwneud yn bwysicach nag erioed ein bod yn make this work for Wales. I am as guilty as gallu cydweithio’n effeithiol fel Cynulliad i anyone—perhaps the Minister will think wneud i hyn weithio ar gyfer Cymru. Rwyf more so—of hoping to see immediate results mor euog â neb—efallai y bydd y Gweinidog from the action that the Government takes, yn meddwl fy mod yn fwy euog—o obeithio but we have to learn to be realistic and accept gweld canlyniadau ar unwaith o’r camau y that restructuring an economy that is as mae’r Llywodraeth yn eu cymryd, ond mae’n dangerously placed and as badly damaged as rhaid i ni ddysgu bod yn realistig a derbyn that of Wales is going to take a considerable bod ailstrwythuro economi mor fregus ac amount of time. sydd wedi cael gymaint o ergyd ag un Cymru yn mynd i gymryd cryn dipyn o amser.

3.45 p.m.

However, I find it hard to be patient. Er hynny, mae’n anodd gennyf fod yn Although I accept that the results of actions amyneddgar. Er imi dderbyn y gall camau a that we take today may take years to have an gymerwn heddiw gymryd blynyddoedd i gael obvious impact, I have to point out that the effaith amlwg, rhaid i mi nodi na welir byth results of the actions that we never take will effaith y camau nad ydym yn eu cymryd. never be apparent. That is just intolerable to Mae hynny’n annioddefol gennyf. me.

I have been extremely impressed, Minister, Mae peth o’r gwaith a gomisiynwyd gan eich with some of the work commissioned by your adran a chan Lywodraeth Cymru ar yr department and by the Welsh Government on economi wedi gwneud argraff dda arnaf, the economy. Brian Morgan’s excellent Weinidog. Mae adolygiad ardderchog Brian business rates review, the microbusiness Morgan o ardrethi busnes, yr adroddiadau reports and the visionary city regions strategy microfusnes a’r strategaeth weledigaethol ar have all offered us exciting opportunities and ddinas-ranbarthau i gyd wedi cynnig ways and means to transform the economy in cyfleoedd cyffrous ynghyd â’r ffyrdd o Wales—some more so than others. We will drawsnewid economi Cymru—rhai yn fwy need to be visionary, and we will need to bite na’i gilydd. Bydd rhaid wrth weledigaeth, a the bullet on some difficult political bydd angen gwneud y penderfyniadau caled questions. However, I have been ynghylch rhai cwestiynau gwleidyddol disappointed to see those important pieces of anodd. Sut bynnag, cefais siom o weld y work published and then, apparently, sit on a gweithiau pwysig hynny’n cael eu cyhoeddi shelf. I fear that the Welsh Government’s ac yna, mae’n debyg, eu gadael ar silff. response to the appalling economic situation Rwy’n ofni mai petruso ac oedi sy’n that we face has been characterised by nodweddu ymateb Llywodraeth Cymru i’r hesitation and delay. sefyllfa economaidd ofnadwy sydd o’n blaen.

Wales’s businesses are waiting, Minister, for Mae busnesau Cymru yn disgwyl i chi you to act. Many smaller businesses are weithredu, Weinidog. Mae llawer o fusnesau

72 10/10/2012 struggling to survive day by day. They cannot llai yn brwydro i oroesi o’r naill ddiwrnod i’r pay their business rates. They are going under llall. Ni allant dalu eu hardrethi busnes. and they are failing right now. They cannot Mae’r hwch yn mynd drwy’r siop; maent yn understand why they have had to wait nearly methu ar hyn o bryd. Ni allant ddeall pam y six months since the Morgan report was bu’n rhaid iddynt aros bron i chwe mis oddi published for a substantive response. I note ar gyhoeddi adroddiad Morgan cyn cael that you will be bringing a statement to the ymateb sylweddol. Nodaf y byddwch yn dod Chamber shortly, and I welcome that, but we â datganiad i’r Siambr cyn hir, a chroesawaf will have to wait even longer, perhaps, before hynny, ond bydd yn rhaid aros yn hwy, action is taken. Those businesses do not efallai, cyn gweld gweithredu. Nid yw’r understand what the delay has been. busnesau hynny’n deall yr oedi hwn.

Our amendment 4 asks you to recognise the Mae ein gwelliant 4 yn gofyn i chi gydnabod urgency of the situation and the need to act mai brys piau hi a bod angen gweithredu ar y on the good advice that you have cyngor da yr ydych, yn ddïau, wedi’i gael ac undoubtedly received and that you have yr ydych wedi’i gomisiynu. Mae hefyd yn commissioned. It also asks you to continue gofyn i chi gadw i fwrw ati gyda’n pushing forward with our enterprise zones, hardaloedd menter oherwydd, unwaith eto, because, again, I fear that we are falling mae arnaf ofn ein bod yn mynd ar ei hôl hi. O behind. Looking at our neighbours, the edrych ar ein cymdogion, mae’r Bristol Bristol Temple Quarter Enterprise Zone has Temple Quarter Enterprise Zone wedi announced detailed plans for offices, shops, cyhoeddi cynlluniau manwl ar gyfer homes and a concert arena. A massive swyddfeydd, siopau, cartrefi ac arena exhibition is now going on in Bristol for local gyngherddau. Mae arddangosfa enfawr residents to get involved and to have their bellach ym Mryste i drigolion lleol gymryd say. Other enterprise zones have planning rhan a chael dweud eu dweud. Mae gan permissions already committed and ardaloedd menter eraill ganiatâd cynllunio investments already made. I fear that we are eisoes wedi ei ymrwymo ac fe wnaed not in that position and that there is a danger buddsoddiadau yn barod. Rwy’n ofni nad that, while those places, particularly on our ydym yn y sefyllfa honno ac efallai wrth i’r borders, push ahead, we may fall behind and lleoedd hynny fwrw ymlaen, yn enwedig y miss the boat. A year into the establishment rhai ar ein ffiniau, mae perygl y syrthiwn ar of the enterprise zones, I still have some ei hôl hi a cholli’r cyfle. Flwyddyn wedi concerns about a lack of clarity on the policy sefydlu’r ardaloedd menter, mae gennyf interventions that will be used in each of bryderon o hyd ynghylch y diffyg eglurder yn them. I would welcome the Minister yr ymyriadau polisi a gaiff eu defnyddio ym providing us with more information about mhob un ohonynt. Byddwn yn falch o weld y progress, not just today but regularly—if not Gweinidog yn rhoi mwy o wybodaeth i ni am week by week, then month by month. I would gynnydd, nid heddiw yn unig, ond yn welcome updates on how we are getting on rheolaidd—os nad yn wythnosol, yna’n fisol. and on how we can help to push that forward. Byddwn yn croesawu’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am sut y mae’n mynd ac am sut y gallwn helpu i’w hyrwyddo.

In amendments 5 and 6, we welcome two Yng ngwelliannau 5 a 6, rydym yn croesawu major opportunities announced by the dau gyfle mawr a gyhoeddwyd gan Westminster Government. I would ask the Lywodraeth San Steffan. Gofynnwn i Welsh Government to build upon those Lywodraeth Cymru adeiladu ar y cyfleoedd opportunities. How can we use the green hynny. Sut y gallwn ni ddefnyddio’r banc investment bank to stimulate projects in buddsoddi gwyrdd i ysgogi prosiectau yng Wales? Can we put together a business case Nghymru? A allwn ni lunio achos busnes for electrifying railways in north Wales as dros drydanu’r rheilffyrdd yn y gogledd well for the next control period? If we want hefyd yn y cyfnod rheoli nesaf? Os ydym am to do that, we need to act fast. We will need wneud hynny, bydd rhaid i ni weithredu’n to put that case now in order for it to be gyflym. Bydd angen i ni roi’r achos yn awr er

73 10/10/2012 announced in four years’ time. mwyn gallu ei gyhoeddi ymhen pedair blynedd. . Turning to its amendment, Plaid Cymru will Gan droi at ei gwelliant, bydd Plaid Cymru know very well of our fulsome support for yn gwybod yn dda am ein cefnogaeth egnïol the granting of additional borrowing powers dros roi pwerau benthyca ychwanegol i’r for the Assembly. However, I am not Cynulliad. Fodd bynnag, nid yw ail hanner ei convinced by the second half of its point phwynt heddiw yn fy argyhoeddi; mae’n today, which looks a little like Build4Wales, edrych ychydig fel Adeiladu i Gymru, rhaid I must confess, to the untrained eye. On that cyfaddef, i’r anghyfarwydd. Ar y sail honno, basis, without further information, we would heb ragor o wybodaeth, bydd yn rhaid i ni have to vote against it. bleidleisio yn ei erbyn.

Janet Finch-Saunders: The Welsh Janet Finch-Saunders: Mae economi economy, after 13 years of Labour Cymru, ar ôl 13 mlynedd dan reolaeth Llafur, management, is in a parlous state. On your mewn cyflwr enbyd. Gyda chi wrth y llyw, watch, GDP per head in Wales has fallen to mae cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth y pen 79% of the EU average and remains lower yng Nghymru wedi gostwng i 79% o than in any other part of the United Kingdom. gyfartaledd yr UE ac mae’n aros yn is nag The unemployment rate in Wales remains unrhyw ran araill o’r Deyrnas Unedig. Mae’r higher than the UK average, at 9%, with gyfradd ddiweithdra yng Nghymru yn uwch o 132,000 people unemployed. The latest data hyd na chyfartaledd y DU, sef 9%, gyda on business confidence show that Wales has 132,000 o bobl heb waith. Mae’r data the lowest reading of any part of the United diweddaraf am hyder busnes yn dangos bod Kingdom, except for Northern Ireland. gan Gymru’r darlleniad isaf yn y Deyrnas Unedig, ac eithrio Gogledd Iwerddon.

On the first point of the motion, the UK O ran pwynt cyntaf y cynnig, mae Government has secured Britain’s future Llywodraeth y DU wedi sicrhau ffyniant prosperity by tackling the deficit. In just two Prydain yn y dyfodol drwy fynd i’r afael â’r years, the deficit has been reduced by more diffyg ariannol. Mewn dwy flynedd yn unig, than a quarter. A Conservative Secretary of mae’r diffyg ariannol wedi cael ei leihau o State for Wales secured, and the UK coalition fwy na chwarter. Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Government will deliver, electrification of Cymru’r Ceidwadwyr sydd wedi sicrhau, a the Great Western main line to Swansea as Llywodraeth glymblaid y DU a fydd yn well as the network of Valleys lines by 2017. cyflawni, trydaneiddio prif reilffordd y Great Making Britain a safe haven for investors and Western i Abertawe yn ogystal â rhwydwaith a better place to do business has led to the rheilffyrdd y Cymoedd erbyn 2017. Mae creation of 1 million private sector jobs since gwneud Prydain yn hafan i fuddsoddwyr ac 2010. yn lle gwell i wneud busnes wedi arwain at greu 1 miliwn o swyddi yn y sector preifat er 2010.

To move on to the second point of the Gan symud ymlaen i ail bwynt y cynnig, pan motion, while in power from 1997 to 2010 oeddent mewn grym rhwng 1997 a 2010, ac o and from 1999 to the present day in Wales, 1999 hyd heddiw yng Nghymru, methodd Labour failed to electrify a single inch of Llafur â thrydaneiddio’r un fodfedd o’r railway track. Billions of pounds—£1.7 rheilffordd. Mae biliynau o bunnoedd—£1.7 billion—during the last round alone— biliwn—yn ystod y rownd ddiwethaf yn unig—

David Rees: First, no electric line has been David Rees: Yn gyntaf, nid oes dim lein put in in Wales yet, so we will take that drydan wedi cael ei gosod yng Nghymru eto, argument. Do you agree with the 2009 report felly fe dderbyniwn y ddadl honno. A ydych of the Welsh Affairs Committee of the House chi’n cytuno â’r adroddiad yn 2009 gan

74 10/10/2012 of Commons, currently chaired by a member Bwyllgor Materion Cymreig Tŷ’r Cyffredin, of your party, which said that it was a Labour a gadeirir gan aelod o’ch plaid chi ar hyn o initiative to put in place the electrification to bryd, a ddywedodd mai cynnig Llafur oedd Swansea? In fact, all that you have done is trydaneiddio hyd at Abertawe? Yn wir, y agree with and follow a Labour policy. It is cyfan yr ydych wedi ei wneud yw cytuno â there in black and white. pholisi Llafur a’i ddilyn. Mae yno ar ddu a gwyn.

Janet Finch-Saunders: What I do not agree Janet Finch-Saunders: Lle nad wyf yn with you on is whose fault it is that these cuts cytuno â chi yw ar bwy y mae’r bai bod rhaid are necessary and whose fault it is that there wrth y toriadau hyn ac ar bwy y mae’r bai is a deficit in the first place in the UK as a bod diffyg ariannol yn y DU ar y cyfan yn y whole. It was your Government’s fault. lle cyntaf. Ar eich Llywodraeth chi y mae’r bai.

Billions of pounds—£1.7 billion—during the Yn y cylch diwethaf yn unig, aeth biliynau o last round alone of EU funding has been bunnoedd o arian yr UE—£1.7 biliwn—yn squandered in west Wales and the Valleys afrad yng ngorllewin Cymru a’r Cymoedd tra during lazy Labour’s time in office. Instead oedd Llafur ddioglyd mewn grym. Yn lle cael of being lifted out of poverty, the situation in eu codi allan o dlodi, mae’r sefyllfa yn yr those areas has worsened, and they are now ardaloedd hynny wedi gwaethygu, ac maent poorer than some parts of Slovakia, Slovenia yn awr yn dlotach na rhannau o Slofacia, and Bulgaria. Slofenia a Bwlgaria.

As for spending—arguably, the Welsh Lle bo gwariant yn y cwestiwn—gellir dadlau Government’s single most important duty—it mai hwn yw dyletswydd bwysicaf is failing miserably. Of the £2 billion of Llywodraeth Cymru—mae’n methu’n grants distributed by the Welsh Government druenus. Am y £2 biliwn mewn grantiau a annually, the cross-party Public Accounts ddosberthir gan Lywodraeth Cymru bob Committee said that blwyddyn, dywed y Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus trawsbleidiol fod gan

‘the Welsh Government operated around 480 ‘Lywodraeth Cymru ryw 480 o gynlluniau separate existing grant schemes in 2009- grant ar wahân yn 2009-2010, a’r rheiny’n 2010, which varied in size, value, amrywio yn ôl eu maint, eu gwerth, eu complexity, delivery models and cymhlethdod, eu modelau cyflawni a’u administrative costs’. costau gweinyddol.’

It is clear that the Welsh Labour Government Mae’n amlwg na all Llywodraeth Lafur cannot competently manage the tools or the Cymru drin yr offer sydd ganddi yn ddigonol, levers at its disposal, to the detriment of a hynny er anfantais i swyddi, twf a ffyniant Welsh jobs, growth and prosperity. yng Nghymru.

On the third point, the Welsh Government Ar y trydydd pwynt, dylai Llywodraeth should make every effort to work with UK Cymru wneud pob ymdrech i weithio gyda Government, and it is about time that you Llywodraeth y DU, ac mae’n hen bryd i chi stop this negativity. David Jones, the new roi’r gorau i fod mor negyddol. Mae David Secretary of State for Wales, has made it Jones, Ysgrifennydd Gwladol newydd quite clear that in order to get Wales back to Cymru, wedi ei gwneud yn glir bod rhaid where it belongs and to get this country back wrth gydweithredu i sicrhau bod Cymru yn ôl on its feet, there has to be co-operation. I i’w phriod le ac i gael y wlad yn ôl ar ei referred to petty politics yesterday, and that is thraed. Cyfeiriais at chwarae gwleidydda all that I have seen since I entered the ddoe, a dyna’r cyfan a welais ers imi ddod i’r Chamber—the will not to work with the UK Siambr—sef ewyllys i beidio â gweithio gyda Government. Pulling Wales lower down the Llywodraeth y DU. Mae tynnu Cymru yn is

75 10/10/2012 food chain because of petty party politics is yn y drefn sydd ohoni oherwydd gwleidydda frankly disgraceful. You should be pleidiol dibwys yn warthus, a dweud y gwir. encouraged by the comments of the Secretary Dylai sylwadau Ysgrifennydd Gwladol of State for Wales, David Jones, who has Cymru, David Jones, fod wedi eich calonogi, made his intentions clear, namely to focus on gan ei fod wedi gwneud ei fwriadau yn glir, the economy. Will you? Instead of blaming sef canolbwyntio ar yr economi. A wnewch Westminster cuts made necessary by the chi? Yn lle beio y toriadau o San Steffan sy’n deluge of debt left by your Government, it is angenrheidiol oherwydd rhyferthwy’r ddyled time for maturity and co-operation. Is that at a adawodd eich Llywodraeth, mae’n amser all possible, we ask. am aeddfedrwydd a chydweithredu. A yw hynny’n bosibl o gwbl, gofynnwn.

Today, I have offered a brief diagnosis of the Heddiw, rwyf wedi cynnig diagnosis byr o’r problems that the Welsh economy faces: too problemau sy’n wynebu economi Cymru: little action on infrastructure, not enough gweithredu annigonol ar seilwaith, prinder ambition on the way forward and an uchelgais am y ffordd ymlaen a record appalling record of achievement. Our focus gyflawni echrydus. Rhaid i’n ffocws yn awr now must be on working together, fod ar weithio gyda’n gilydd, gan ategu’r complementing the sound macro-economic polisïau macro-economaidd cadarn sy’n policies emanating from London so that we deillio o Lundain fel y cawn ddiwygio can reform the Welsh economy for it to economi Cymru fel y bydd yn cyflawni i holl deliver for all the people of Wales. No more bobl Cymru. Dim rhagor o Lafur ddioglyd; lazy Labour; it is time for action, ambition mae’n hen bryd cael gweithredu, uchelgais a and achievement. That is what you will get chyflawni. Dyna gewch chi o’r meinciau hyn. from these benches.

Julie Morgan: Most of the contributions so Julie Morgan: Mae’r rhan fwyaf o’r far have been pretty gloomy. I know that we cyfraniadau hyd yn hyn wedi bod yn weddol are in a difficult situation, but, in this ddiflas. Rwy’n gwybod ein bod mewn situation, we should speak up for Wales, we sefyllfa anodd, ond, yn y sefyllfa hon, dylem should not put Wales down and we should siarad dros Gymru, ni ddylem fychanu celebrate what we have achieved as well as Cymru, a dylem ddathlu’r hyn yr ydym acknowledging the difficulties that we face. wedi’i gyflawni yn ogystal â chydnabod yr Therefore, I want to say a bit about some of anawsterau sy’n ein hwynebu. Felly, hoffwn the good news that is around, which I do not sôn ychydig am y newyddion da sydd ar gael, think has been covered yet. y tybiaf nad ydyw wedi cael sylw eto.

During First Minister’s questions yesterday, I Yn ystod cwestiynau i’r Prif Weinidog ddoe, raised the issue of GE Healthcare’s cell codais fater ynghylch labordai gwyddoniaeth science laboratories, which are being opened celloedd GE Healthcare, sy’n cael eu hagor in my constituency of Cardiff North. Those yn fy etholaeth i, Gogledd Caerdydd. Mae’r new laboratories are the result of a £3 million labordai newydd yn ganlyniad i £3 miliwn o investment by the life sciences business of fuddsoddiad gan y busnes gwyddorau bywyd GE Healthcare to create a world-class centre GE Healthcare i greu canolfan ragoriaeth fyd- of excellence in cell science in Cardiff. It will eang mewn gwyddoniaeth celloedd yng support the development of new, safer Nghaerdydd. Bydd yn cynorthwyo datblygu medicines and the rapidly emerging field of meddyginiaethau newydd a mwy diogel a cell therapy, and be a highly specialised maes therapi celloedd, sy’n datblygu’n centre for the manufacture of cells for use by gyflym. Bydd hefyd yn ganolfan arbenigol the international pharmaceutical industry. iawn ar gyfer gweithgynhyrchu celloedd at This is a first-class industry, it is doing well ddefnydd y diwydiant fferyllol rhyngwladol. in Wales, it has a good relationship with the Mae hwn yn ddiwydiant o’r radd flaenaf, ac Welsh Government and it is important to mae’n gwneud yn dda yng Nghymru—mae remember that these sorts of companies exist ganddo berthynas dda â Llywodraeth Cymru and are thriving in Wales. ac mae’n bwysig cofio bod y mathau hyn o

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gwmnïau yn bodoli ac yn ffynnu yng Nghymru.

Antoinette Sandbach: I am very grateful to Antoinette Sandbach: Rwy’n ddiolchgar i you for giving way, Julie. Unfortunately, chi am ildio, Julie. Yn anffodus, mae ffrwd there is an opposite jobs flight out of Wales. wrthgyferbyniol o swyddi yn gadael Cymru. Some 1,200 jobs are going to Avonmouth in Mae 1,200 o swyddi yn mynd i Avonmouth Bristol. In north Wales, the Jeyes factory is ym Mryste. Yn y gogledd, mae’r ffatri Jeyes moving to Norfolk, and some 600 IT jobs are yn symud i Norfolk, ac mae 600 o swyddi going at Unilever. What do you think is technoleg gwybodaeth yn mynd yn Unilever. responsible for the jobs flight out of Wales? Beth ydych chi’n credu sy’n gyfrifol am y They are not going elsewhere, into Europe, swyddi sy’n diflannu o Gymru? Nid ydynt yn but to England. mynd i rywle arall, i Ewrop, ond i Loegr.

Julie Morgan: I am talking about the good Julie Morgan: Rwy’n sôn am y newyddion news in Wales. Only today, as has already da yng Nghymru. Heddiw, fel y soniwyd been mentioned, there has been the official eisoes, cafwyd agoriad swyddogol gwaith opening of the Renishaw plant on the former Renishaw ar hen safle Bosch ym Mro Bosch site in the Vale of Glamorgan, the Morgannwg, sef etholaeth y Gweinidog constituency of the Minister for Finance. Cyllid. Pan aeth Bosch, roedd yn destun When Bosch went, it was a matter of huge pryder mawr, gan ei fod yn golled fawr i concern, as it was a big loss to Wales. Gymru. Fodd bynnag, mae’n wych bod y However, it is absolutely tremendous that this cwmni enwog hwn sy’n gweithredu ledled y renowned firm that operates UK wide—I DU—credaf ei fod yn cyflogi tua 3,000 o think that it employs about 3,000 people in bobl yn y DU—wedi dod i Gymru i the UK—has come to Wales to develop this ddatblygu’r safle hwn. Gadewch i ni gofio’r site. Let us remember these things. It is pethau hyn. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn important that we talk up achievements in clodfori llwyddiannau yng Nghymru, a Wales, and it is up to the official opposition, dylai’r wrthblaid swyddogol, y mae gan ei whose Members have the inside track to the Haelodau lwybr uniongyrchol at y Government in Westminster, to do all that it Llywodraeth yn San Steffan, wneud popeth can to ensure that we have the tools and the yn ei gallu i sicrhau bod gennym yr arfau a’r borrowing powers to be able to do these pwerau benthyca i allu gwneud y pethau hyn. things. You have a responsibility for that. Mae gennych gyfrifoldeb i wneud hynny.

There is absolutely no doubt that we need Nid oes amheuaeth bod angen mwy o more development in Wales. We do not have ddatblygu yng Nghymru. Nid oes gennym a big enough private sector and, as Eluned sector preifat digon mawr, ac fel y Parrott mentioned in her speech, we have a crybwyllodd Eluned Parrott yn ei haraith, long legacy that will take a long time to mae gennym etifeddiaeth faith y bydd yn recover from. However, there is no doubt that cymryd amser hir i wella ohoni. Fodd Wales is a very good place in which to bynnag, nid oes amheuaeth bod Cymru yn lle operate, particularly for high-tech industries, da iawn i weithredu, yn enwedig i’r and we must do what we can to ensure that diwydiannau uwch-dechnoleg, a rhaid i ni we attract more of these companies. There is wneud yr hyn y gallwn i sicrhau ein bod yn no doubt that the Minister for business is denu mwy o’r cwmnïau hyn. Nid oes doing just that with the things that she has put amheuaeth bod y Gweinidog busnes yn in place, ensuring that these companies thrive gwneud hynny yn union yn y pethau y mae hi here. That is the first point that I wanted to wedi ei roi ar waith, gan sicrhau bod y make, about building Wales up and doing cwmnïau hyn yn ffynnu yma. Dyna’r pwynt what we can to ensure that we get more cyntaf yr wyf am ei wneud, am godi Cymru a industry here. gwneud yr hyn y gallwn i sicrhau ein bod yn cael mwy o ddiwydiant yma.

The other point that I wanted to make was Y pwynt arall yr oeddwn am ei wneud oedd

77 10/10/2012 about transport. Clearly, transport is vital to am drafnidiaeth. Yn amlwg, mae trafnidiaeth the economy; we will be having a debate later yn hanfodol i’r economi; cawn ddadl yn today on rail transport. Nonetheless, we all ddiweddarach heddiw ar drafnidiaeth welcome the plan to have a direct route to rheilffyrdd. Serch hynny, rydym i gyd yn Heathrow from south Wales, which I think is croesawu’r cynllun i gael llwybr vital to the economy of south Wales. That uniongyrchol i Heathrow o dde Cymru; will not be much use, however, if there are credaf ei fod yn hanfodol i economi de plans to close down Heathrow and relocate to Cymru. Ni fydd hynny’n llawer o ddefnydd, an island in the Thames estuary. When I was fodd bynnag, os oes cynlluniau i gau in the House of Commons, I voted for a third Heathrow a symud i ynys ym moryd y runway at Heathrow. I know that there are Tafwys. Pan oeddwn i yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin, concerns on environmental grounds about pleidleisiais dros drydedd redfa yn Heathrow. that, but it is important to remember that a Gwn fod pryderon ar sail amgylcheddol am huge change in aircraft technology has been hynny, ond mae’n bwysig cofio bod newid taking place, which means that noise mawr yn nhechnoleg awyrennau wedi bod, pollution will be hugely reduced with much sy’n golygu y bydd llygredd sŵn yn llai o shorter ascents and descents for aeroplanes. I lawer gan y bydd pellteroedd esgyn a disgyn i think that an airport in the Thames estuary awyrennau yn llawer byrrach. Credaf y would be disastrous for Wales. A third byddai maes awyr ym moryd y Tafwys yn runway, with a railway link to south Wales, drychineb i Gymru. Byddai trydedd rhedfa would also help Cardiff Airport. Businesses gyda chyswllt rheilffordd i dde Cymru hefyd would be much more likely to come to south yn helpu Maes Awyr Caerdydd. Byddai Wales if they had good transport links for busnesau yn llawer mwy tebygol o ddod i dde international flights at Heathrow and if they Cymru pe bai ganddynt gysylltiadau could make much more use of short-haul trafnidiaeth da am deithiau awyr rhyngwladol flights at Rhoose. yn Heathrow a phe gallent wneud llawer mwy o ddefnydd o deithiau awyr byr yn y Rhws.

It is important that the plans for rail Mae’n bwysig bod y cynlluniau i electrification go ahead as swiftly as possible. drydaneiddio’r rheilffyrdd yn mynd yn eu I do hope that the fiasco of the West Coast blaen cyn gynted ag y bo modd. Yr wyf yn franchise—which I think shows a gobeithio nad yw’r ffradach a welwyd ym Government that is not operating with any masnachfraint West Coast—sy’n dangos i mi competence—does not in any way put nad yw’r Llywodraeth yn gweithio gydag electrification in doubt, because there is a unrhyw gymhwysedd—yn codi ansicrwydd o great deal of concern about the way in which ran trydaneiddio o gwbl, oherwydd mae this has been handled. There will also be llawer o bryder ynghylch y ffordd y mae implications for the Great Western franchise. wedi cael ei ei thrin. Bydd hefyd oblygiadau i fasnachfraint y Great Western.

Mohammad Asghar: At the signing of a Mohammad Asghar: Wrth arwyddo Bil yn small business-related Bill in 2010, President ymwneud â busnesau bach yn 2010, Barrack Obama said: dywedodd yr Arlywydd Barrack Obama:

‘Government…can’t create jobs…but it can Ni all Llywodraeth greu swyddi, ond gall create the conditions for small businesses to greu’r amodau i fusnesau bach gyflogi mwy hire more people’. o bobl.

The motion this afternoon regrets that the Mae’r cynnig y prynhawn yma yn gresynu Welsh Government has failed to utilise the bod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi methu â tools at its disposal to grow the Welsh defnyddio’r dulliau sydd ganddi i dyfu economy. Small and medium-sized economi Cymru. Mentrau bach a chanolig eu enterprises are the lifeblood of the Welsh maint yw enaid economi Cymru ac mae economy and need our support. I wish to arnynt angen ein cefnogaeth. Hoffwn dynnu

78 10/10/2012 highlight some of the areas in which the sylw at rai o’r meysydd y mae Llywodraeth Welsh Government has failed and what can Cymru wedi methu a’r hyn y gellir ei wneud i be done to create the conditions for Welsh greu’r amodau er mwyn i fusnesau Cymru businesses to grow and to thrive. dyfu a ffynnu.

4.00 p.m.

First, we need to boost business confidence in Yn gyntaf, mae angen i ni roi hwb i hyder Wales. Research by the Federation of Small busnesau yng Nghymru. Mae ymchwil gan y Businesses reveals that business confidence Ffederasiwn Busnesau Bach yn dangos bod in Wales has fallen and is the lowest of any hyder busnes yng Nghymru wedi gostwng a’i part of the United Kingdom except Northern fod yr isaf o unrhyw ran o’r Deyrnas Unedig Ireland. Businesses are suffering at the ac eithrio Gogledd Iwerddon. Mae busnesau moment because of a lack of access to yn dioddef ar hyn o bryd oherwydd diffyg funding. This is a huge barrier to growth and mynediad at gyllid. Mae hynny’n rhwystro is recognised by the Governments in twf ac mae Llywodraethau San Steffan a Westminster and Cardiff alike. Chaerdydd yn cydnabod hynny.

In Westminster, the Secretary of State for Yn San Steffan, mae Vince Cable, yr Business, Innovation and Skills, Vince Cable, Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Fusnes, has announced the first steps in creating a Arloesedd a Sgiliau, wedi cyhoeddi’r camau Government-funded bank to help small and cyntaf i greu banc a ariennir gan y medium-sized businesses. This single Llywodraeth i helpu busnesau bach a institution will address long-standing chanolig eu maint. Bydd y sefydliad structural gaps in the supply of finance. The hwnnw’n mynd i’r afael â bylchau Welsh Government is trying to address the strwythurol hir-sefydlog yn y cyflenwad o problem by providing SMEs and gyllid. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ceisio microbusinesses with loan funds through mynd i’r afael â’r broblem drwy ddarparu Finance Wales. However, so far, only £1 cronfeydd benthyca i fusnesau bach a million of a possible £40 million funding chanolig a microfusnesau drwy Cyllid stream has been invested, in just three Cymru. Fodd bynnag, hyd yn hyn, dim ond businesses. The Federation of Small £1 miliwn o ffrwd ariannu posibl o £40 Businesses has expressed its concern that miliwn sydd wedi cael ei fuddsoddi, mewn tri these funding streams are not being properly busnes yn unig. Mae’r Ffederasiwn Busnesau and adequately promoted in Wales. It is clear Bach wedi mynegi pryder nad yw’r ffrydiau from the figures that it has a point. The ariannu yn cael eu hyrwyddo’n briodol ac yn Welsh Government must be more proactive ddigonol yng Nghymru. Mae’n amlwg o’r in its marketing of the opportunities provided ffigurau bod ganddo bwynt. Rhaid i by Finance Wales. Lywodraeth Cymru fod yn fwy rhagweithiol wrth farchnata’r cyfleoedd sy’n cael eu darparu gan Cyllid Cymru.

Business rates remain one of the major costs Ardrethi busnes yw un o brif gostau busnesau faced by small businesses, and can make the bach, a gall wneud y gwahaniaeth rhwng difference between a company thriving or cwmni yn ffynnu neu yn methu. Cred y failing. Welsh Conservatives have Ceidwadwyr Cymreig y dylid diddymu maintained our long-standing belief that ardrethi busnes ar gyfer yr holl gwmnïau business rates should be abolished for all sydd â gwerth ardrethol o dan £12,000 y firms with a rateable value of under £12,000 flwyddyn, a dylid rhoi rhyddhad ardrethi a year, and tapered relief should be provided graddol i’r rhai sydd â gwerth ardrethol o hyd for those with a rateable value of up to at £15,000 y flwyddyn. Byddai’r polisi hwn £15,000 a year. This policy would remove a yn cael gwared ar faich enfawr oddi ar huge burden from small businesses in Wales fusnesau bach yng Nghymru, ac felly yn and therefore boost confidence in the hybu hyder yn yr economi. Byddai’n eu economy. It would help them to invest and helpu i fuddsoddi a thyfu, gan roi hwb mawr

79 10/10/2012 grow, providing a much-needed boost to ei angen i gyflogaeth hefyd. Rwy’n annog employment as well. I urge the Welsh Llywodraeth Cymru i edrych ar hyn eto. Government to look at this again.

We must also do more to boost inward Rhaid i ni hefyd wneud mwy i hybu investment in Wales. I know that the First mewnfuddsoddi yng Nghymru. Gwn fod y Minister has travelled to China, India, Prif Weinidog wedi teithio i Tsieina, India, America and to most of the growing America ac i’r rhan fwyaf o’r economïau economies of the world, but the inward sy’n tyfu yn y byd, ond mae’r investment that he has brought back has been mewnfuddsoddiad o ganlyniad i hynny wedi negligible. Figures provided by UK Trade bod yn ddibwys. Mae ffigurau a ddarparwyd and Investment show that active foreign gan Masnach a Buddsoddi’r DU yn dangos i direct investment projects in Wales fell to brosiectau buddsoddi uniongyrchol tramor 23% last year compared with 38% the gweithredol yng Nghymru ostwng i 23% y previous year. The job the First Minister is llynedd, o’i gymharu â 38% y flwyddyn doing is not working. The figure for Wales is flaenorol. Nid yw’r hyn y mae’r Prif below that for any region or devolved nation Weinidog yn ei wneud yn gweithio. Mae’r of the United Kingdom. It represents just ffigur ar gyfer Cymru yn is nac ar gyfer 1.6% of the UK total, while Scotland attracts unrhyw ranbarth neu wlad ddatganoledig yn more than 11% of investment. The Minister y Deyrnas Unedig. Mae’n cynrychioli 1.6% for business has admitted that the yn unig o gyfanswm y DU, tra bo’r Alban yn Government has failed to get the Welsh denu mwy nag 11% o’r buddsoddiad. Mae’r brand right. Professor Brian Morgan, whose Gweinidog dros fusnes wedi cyfaddef bod y name has been mentioned in this Chamber Llywodraeth wedi methu â chael y brand for the last couple of days, has said that the Cymreig yn iawn. Mae’r Athro Brian abolition of the Welsh Development Agency Morgan, y mae ei enw wedi cael ei grybwyll yn y Siambr hon dros y diwrnodau diwethaf, wedi dweud y bydd diddymu Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru

‘will probably go down in history as the yn debygol o gael ei gofio fel y penderfyniad worst policy decision made in Wales in living polisi gwaethaf a wnaed yng Nghymru mewn memory’. cof.

I urge the Welsh Government to reconsider Rwy’n annog Llywodraeth Cymru i how best to restore such a recognisable brand ailystyried y ffordd orau i adfer brand to attract investment to Wales. Tourism— adnabyddus o’r fath i ddenu buddsoddiad i Gymru. Twristiaeth—

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Dewch i ben yn Conclude now, please. awr, os gwelwch yn dda.

Mohammad Asghar: We have to build an Mohammad Asghar: Mae’n rhaid i ni airport like Hong Kong’s and Tokyo’s in the adeiladu maes awyr fel rhai Hong Kong a Bristol channel to compete with the world, Tokyo ym Môr Hafren i gystadlu â’r byd, neu otherwise our economy will never grow. ni fydd ein heconomi yn tyfu byth.

Ann Jones: This motion gives us an Ann Jones: Mae’r cynnig hwn yn rhoi cyfle i opportunity to put some important facts on ni roi rhai ffeithiau pwysig ar goedd. Mae’r the record. The Westminster coalition has glymblaid yn San Steffan wedi troi adferiad turned recovery into recession—a double-dip yn ddirwasgiad—dirwasgiad dwbl—ac recession—and because of this, the deficit is oherwydd hyn, mae’r diffyg yn cynyddu, nid going up, not down. Borrowing is rising, not lleihau. Mae benthyca yn cynyddu, nid yn falling. The Tory coalition Government is lleihau. Mae Llywodraeth y glymblaid adding more to the national debt than ever Dorïaidd yn ychwanegu mwy at y ddyled

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Labour did, and it is adding to the national genedlaethol nag a wnaeth y Blaid Lafur debt not to invest in infrastructure and jobs, erioed, ac mae’n ychwanegu at y ddyled but to pay for the mounting costs of the UK genedlaethol drwy beidio â buddsoddi mewn Government’s failed economic plan. That is seilwaith a swyddi, ond drwy dalu am gostau not success; that is failure. It is a failed cynyddol cynllun economaidd ffaeledig Government and a failed economic policy Llywodraeth y DU. Nid llwyddiant yw hynny that is out of touch with the country. It is ond methiant. Mae’r Llywodraeth wedi hurting, but it is not working. methu ac mae’r polisi economaidd wedi methu ac mae allan o gysylltiad â’r wlad. Mae’n brifo, ond nid yw’n gweithio.

The first act of the Tory coalition was to axe Gweithred gyntaf y glymblaid Dorïaidd oedd the Future Jobs fund—a £1 billion cael gwared ar Gronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol— programme developing value for money, rhaglen £1 biliwn sy’n datblygu gwerth am creating decent jobs and giving 11,000 young arian, sy’n creu swyddi da ac sy’n rhoi help people in Wales a vital first step into work. llaw i 11,000 o bobl ifanc yng Nghymru i That is what we believed on these benches, gael gwaith. Dyna beth yr ydym yn ei gredu but, for example, take what my constituent ar y meinciau hyn, ond, er enghraifft, mae fy Mathew Dawe said: etholwr Mathew Dawe wedi dweud

‘If I hadn’t been given this opportunity, I os na fyddai wedi cael y cyfle hwnnw y would undoubtedly still be on JSA or in a job byddai’n sicr yn dal i dderbyn lwfans ceisio I had no interest in. There’s no doubt in my gwaith neu byddai mewn swydd nad oedd mind that the value and importance of Future ganddo ddiddordeb ynddi. Does dim Jobs Fund has been drastically underrated.’ amheuaeth ganddo fod gwerth a phwysigrwydd Cronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol wedi’u tanbrisio’n sylweddol.

I agree with him. Rwy’n cytuno ag ef.

Darren Millar: Thank you for taking an Darren Millar: Diolch am gymryd yr intervention, Ann. Would you agree with me ymyriad, Ann. A fyddech yn cytuno â mi, er that, while we could all point to examples of y gallai pob un ohonom gyfeirio at success under the Future Jobs fund, which enghreifftiau o lwyddiant o dan y gronfa has turned around the lives of individuals like Swyddi’r Dyfodol, sydd wedi trawsnewid your constituent, for every one of those bywydau unigolion fel eich etholwr, ar gyfer individuals, unfortunately, there were many pob un o’r unigolion hynny, yn anffodus, who did not have a job at the end of the six- roedd llawer nad oedd ganddynt swydd ar month period, and that is why, under your ddiwedd y cyfnod o chwe mis, a dyna pam, o party’s Government at Westminster, we saw dan Lywodraeth eich plaid chi yn San record levels of individuals not in education, Steffan, y gwelsom y lefelau uchaf erioed o employment or training, which were still unigolion nad ydynt mewn addysg, rising when you left office? cyflogaeth neu hyfforddiant, ac a oedd yn dal i gynyddu pan wnaethoch adael y Llywodraeth?

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. This Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Mae hyn yn is becoming a speech. troi’n araith.

Darren Millar: Do you accept that there Darren Millar: A ydych yn derbyn bod needed to be a change in that policy in order angen newid y polisi hwnnw er mwyn ysgogi to drive economic growth? twf economaidd?

Ann Jones: No, I do not agree with that. I Ann Jones: Na, nid wyf yn cytuno â hynny. believe that the Future Jobs fund policy was Roeddwn o’r farn fod y polisi cronfa

81 10/10/2012 working well. Young people had confidence Swyddi’r Dyfodol yn gweithio’n dda. Roedd in it and they did not see it as a scheme for gan bobl ifanc hyder ynddo ac nid oeddent yn six months as they were finding good, decent ei weld fel cynllun am chwe mis am eu bod jobs at the end of it. yn dod o hyd i swyddi da ar y diwedd.

As the Tories pull the plug on schemes that Wrth i’r Torïaid dynnu’r plwg ar gynlluniau tackle unemployment, we are lucky in Wales sy’n mynd i’r afael â diweithdra, rydym yn to have a Labour Government—one that says ffodus yng Nghymru i gael Llywodraeth that unemployment is not a price worth Lafur—un sy’n dweud nad yw diweithdra yn paying. Over the last couple of years, bris gwerth ei dalu. Dros yr ychydig employment in Wales has increased by more flynyddoedd diwethaf, mae cyflogaeth yng than 35,000. Wales now has the lowest level Nghymru wedi cynyddu mwy na 35,000. of economic inactivity since records began in Bellach, mae gan Gymru’r lefel isaf o 1992. Wales-based companies have increased anweithgarwch economaidd ers i gofnodion their share of the public sector spend in ddechrau yn 1992. Mae cwmnïau yng Wales from 34% to 52%. That is as a result Nghymru wedi cynyddu eu cyfran o’r of the Welsh Labour Government’s economic gwariant sector cyhoeddus yng Nghymru o plan for jobs and growth. 34% i 52%. Mae hynny o ganlyniad i gynllun economaidd Llywodraeth Lafur Cymru ar gyfer swyddi a thwf.

In my constituency, where we see some of Yn fy etholaeth i, sy’n cynnwys rhai o the most deprived areas in Wales, ardaloedd mwyaf difreintiedig Cymru, mae regeneration continues. I recently attended adfywio’n parhau. Yn ddiweddar, bûm yn the launch of Open Doors, along with the lansiad Drysau Agored, ynghyd â’r Dirprwy Deputy Minister for Skills, which is an Weinidog Sgiliau, sy’n gynllun arloesol sy’n innovative scheme matching job seekers with cyfateb pobl sy’n ceisio am waith gyda local employers. By working together, the chyflogwyr lleol. Drwy weithio gyda’i Welsh Labour Government, alongside the gilydd, mae Llywodraeth Lafur Cymru, ochr brilliant Rhyl City Strategy and its partners, yn ochr â Strategaeth wych Dinas y Rhyl a’i are able to offer tailored support to job phartneriaid, yn gallu cynnig cymorth wedi’i seekers who are looking for work and to local deilwra i bobl sy’n chwilio am waith ac i businesses that are looking to recruit. That is fusnesau lleol sy’n awyddus i recriwtio. Dyna yet another example of how we, on these enghraifft arall o sut rydym, ar y meinciau benches, are prepared to act and stand by hyn, yn barod i weithredu ac i fod yn gefn i people in these tough economic times. There bobl yn y cyfnod economaidd anodd hwn. are other examples: the £40 million Wales Ceir enghreifftiau eraill: y gronfa SME investment fund to provide loans for buddsoddiad busnesau bach a chanolig yng small businesses; Jobs Growth Wales to Nghymru, sydd werth £40 miliwn, i ddarparu create 4,000 opportunities annually for 16 to benthyciadau i fusnesau bach; Twf Swyddi 24-year-olds; the establishment of five Cymru i greu 4,000 o gyfleoedd bob enterprise zones operational across Wales, blwyddyn i bobl rhwng 16 a 24 mlwydd oed; with a further two announced; and the Wales sefydlu pum ardal fenter weithredol ar draws infrastructure investment plan, which sets out Cymru, a chyhoeddi dau arall; a chynllun how more than £3.5 billion will be spent on buddsoddiad seilwaith Cymru, sy’n nodi sut capital projects, ranging from hospitals to y bydd mwy na £3.5 biliwn yn cael ei wario schools to roads. ar brosiectau cyfalaf, yn amrywio o ysbytai ac ysgolion i ffyrdd.

All of this is in spite of the fact that Wales Mae hyn i gyd er gwaethaf y ffaith i Gymru has had its worst settlement from a Tory-Lib gael y setliad gwaethaf gan glymblaid y Dem coalition since devolution began. The Torïaid a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ers phrase ‘We’re all in this together’ was coined dechrau datganoli. Cafodd yr ymadrodd by a Tory-led coalition that, in six months’ ‘We’re all in this together’ ei fathu gan time, will raise taxes for pensioners on the glymblaid sy’n cael ei harwain gan y Torïaid

82 10/10/2012 very same day that it will slash the top rate of a fydd, ymhen chwe mis, yn codi trethi i tax for the very richest. That is a £3 billion bensiynwyr ar yr un dydd y bydd yn torri’r tax cut, giving £40,000 a year to a gyfradd uchaf o dreth i’r mwyaf cyfoethog. millionaire. This is from a Tory Government Mae hynny’n doriad treth £3 biliwn sy’n rhoi that wants to pay a nurse in Rhyl less than a £40,000 y flwyddyn i filiwnyddion. Mae hyn nurse in Reading and a Tory-led coalition yn dod o Lywodraeth Dorïaidd sydd am dalu that has promised to cut another £10 billion nyrs yn y Rhyl yn llai na nyrs yn Reading a from the welfare bill by 2016-17, on top of chlymblaid a arweinir gan y Torïaid sydd the cuts of £18 billion that are already being wedi addo torri £10 biliwn arall o’r bil lles implemented, which the leader of the Welsh erbyn 2016-17, ar ben y toriadau o £18 Conservatives says will bring prosperity to biliwn sydd eisoes yn cael eu rhoi ar waith, y Wales. It has been asked before: Cameron or mae arweinydd y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig yn Carwyn? The people of Wales—including dweud y bydd yn dod â ffyniant i Gymru. the people of my constituency—and I know Mae wedi cael ei ofyn o’r blaen: Cameron who we want to run our country. neu Carwyn? Mae pobl Cymru—gan gynnwys y bobl fy etholaethi —a minnau’n gwybod pwy rydym eisiau i redeg ein gwlad.

Mark Isherwood: The UK’s Work Mark Isherwood: Mae Rhaglen Waith y DU Programme in Rhyl is helping over 700 yn y Rhyl yn helpu dros 700 o bobl. people.

The world has changed and so must we. The Mae’r byd wedi newid ac felly rhaid i ninnau. west is slipping down international league Mae’r gorllewin yn llithro i lawr y tablau tables, as emerging economies push ahead. cynghrair rhyngwladol, wrth i economïau The countries that make it will be those that sy’n datblygu wthio ymlaen. Y gwledydd step up to meet the big, long-term challenges. fydd yn gwneud orau fydd y rhai sy’n gallu The Conservatives at a UK level are taking wynebu’r heriau mawr a hirdymor. Mae’r the bold action that is needed, fighting for Ceidwadwyr ar lefel y DU yn cymryd y Britain’s future to ensure that we succeed in camau beiddgar sydd eu hangen, yn ymladd this changed and changing world, dealing ar gyfer dyfodol Prydain i sicrhau ein bod yn with the debt crisis left by Labour, llwyddo yn y byd sydd wedi newid ac yn rebalancing the economy, backing the newid, yn delio â’r argyfwng dyled a adawyd industries of the future and making Britain gan Lafur, yn ail-gydbwyso’r economi, yn the place to start and grow a business. cefnogi diwydiannau’r dyfodol ac yn gwneud Prydain y lle i ddechrau a thyfu busnes.

The Institute for Fiscal Studies’ research Mae ymchwil y Sefydliad Astudiaethau shows that if Labour was in power at a UK Cyllid yn dangos os byddai Llafur mewn level, and if the UK coalition Government grym ar lefel y DU, ac os na fyddai had not taken the tough decisions that it has, Llywodraeth glymblaid y DU wedi cymryd y the UK’s national debt would be £3,200 per penderfyniadau anodd a wnaeth, byddai person higher—buying votes today at the dyled genedlaethol y DU £3,200 y pen yn expense of our children tomorrow and uwch—prynu pleidleisiau heddiw ar draul ein generating cuts on a southern-European scale. plant yfory a chynhyrchu toriadau ar raddfa de Ewrop.

Gordon Brown’s right-hand men, Eds Mae dwy law dde Gordon Brown, Ed Miliband and Balls, have been telling us for Miliband ac Ed Balls, wedi bod yn dweud years that more borrowing and spending was wrthym ers blynyddoedd bod angen mwy o required, as has commissar Carwyn and his fenthyca a gwariant, fel y mae comisâr lazy, ideological Welsh Government— Carwyn a Llywodraeth ddiog ac ideolegol forever blaming the UK Government for their Cymru—yn beio Llywodraeth y DU am eu own shocking failure. However, despite the methiant brawychus eu hunain. Fodd bynnag, budget deficit being lower than when the Eds er gwaethaf bod y diffyg yn y gyllideb yn is

83 10/10/2012 left office, they now inform us that because na phan adawodd y ddau Ed eu swyddi, of the budget deficit, they cannot promise to maent yn awr yn dweud, oherwydd y diffyg reinstate spending. Ed Miliband’s pathetic yn y gyllideb, na allant addo i adfer gwariant. attempt to associate himself with Benjamin Mae ymgais truenus Ed Miliband i gysylltu ei Disraeli’s one nation conservatism is holed hun â cheidwadaeth un genedl Benjamin below the waterline by the experience of the Disraeli wedi’i ddistrywio gan brofiad yr one UK nation governed by Labour—Wales. unig genedl yn y Deyrnas Unedig sy’n cael ei llywodraethu gan Lafur—Cymru.

The Welsh Conservatives have repeatedly Mae’r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig wedi annog dro urged action to attract investment and create ar ôl tro gamau i ddenu buddsoddiad a chreu jobs. However, despite billions being spent swyddi. Fodd bynnag, er gwaethaf gwario on economic development in Wales, and the biliynau ar ddatblygu economaidd yng nation having received over £3 billion of Nghymru, a’r genedl yn derbyn dros £3 European funding, which was supposed to biliwn o gyllid Ewropeaidd, a oedd fod i close the gap, west Wales and the Valleys, gau’r bwlch, gorllewin Cymru a’r Cymoedd, including four north Wales counties, will be gan gynnwys y pedair sir yng ngogledd the only region in western Europe to qualify Cymru, fydd yr unig ranbarth yng ngorllewin for the highest level of support in the next Ewrop i fod yn gymwys ar gyfer y lefel uchaf round of European funding. o gefnogaeth yn y rownd nesaf o gyllid Ewropeaidd.

Gross domestic product is used across Europe Caiff cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth ei to measure economic performance. The GDP ddefnyddio ar draws Ewrop i fesur figures published in March by the EU perfformiad economaidd. Mae’r ffigurau revealed that Wales remained bottom of the CMC a gyhoeddwyd ym mis Mawrth gan yr 12 UK nations and regions, and had slipped UE yn dangos bod Cymru yn parhau i fod ar even further behind. As we heard earlier, it is waelod y 12 cenedl a rhanbarth yn y DU, gan now even poorer than some of the poorest lithro ymhellach fyth ar ei hôl hi. Fel y regions in Europe, including Slovakia and clywsom yn gynharach, mae bellach yn Slovenia. Small and medium-sized dlotach na rhai o’r rhanbarthau tlotaf yn enterprises are the lifeblood of the Welsh Ewrop, gan gynnwys Slofacia a Slofenia. economy. However, the Federation of Small Mentrau bach a chanolig eu maint yw asgwrn Businesses has said that, for the third quarter cefn economi Cymru. Fodd bynnag, mae’r of 2012, business confidence in Wales was Ffederasiwn Busnesau Bach wedi dweud, ar lower than in any other part of the UK, gyfer y trydydd chwarter yn 2012, bod hyder except Northern Ireland. busnesau yng Nghymru yn is nag mewn unrhyw ran arall o’r DU, ac eithrio Gogledd Iwerddon.

Although the UK is once again the top Er mai’r DU unwaith eto yw’r prif gyrchfan destination for inward investment in the ar gyfer mewnfuddsoddi yn yr Undeb European Union, Wales has slipped from the Ewropeaidd, mae Cymru wedi llithro o’r fod top destination to the bottom among the 12 yn brif gyrchfan i’r gwaelod ymysg 12 cenedl UK nations and regions. Wales has the a rhanbarthau y DU. Cymru sydd â’r gyfradd second-lowest rate of enterprise births out of isaf ond un o fentrau newydd allan o 12 the 12 UK countries and regions. The number gwlad a rhanbarth y DU. Roedd nifer y bobl of working-aged people not in employment in o oed gweithio nad oeddent mewn cyflogaeth Wales stood at 626,000 when Labour left UK yng Nghymru yn 626,000 pan adawodd y Government, but has been falling since. Over Blaid Lafur Llywodraeth y DU, ond mae 1 million UK private sector jobs have been wedi bod yn gostwng ers hynny. Mae dros created since the UK election. In every single filiwn o swyddi sector preifat wedi’u creu yn year of this UK Parliament— y DU ers etholiad y DU. Ym mhob blwyddyn o’r Senedd hon yn y DU—

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David Rees: Will you take an intervention? David Rees: A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad?

Mark Isherwood: I will finish this point and Mark Isherwood: Rwyf am orffen y pwynt then bring you in. In every single year of this hwn, ac yna eich cynnwys. Ym mhob UK Parliament, the rich will pay a greater blwyddyn o’r Senedd hon yn y DU, bydd y share of UK tax revenues than in any one of cyfoethog yn talu cyfran fwy o refeniw treth the 13 years that Labour was in office. yn y DU nag y gwnaethant yn unrhyw un o’r 13 mlynedd yr oedd Llafur mewn Llywodraeth.

David Rees: Thank you for taking the David Rees: Diolch am dderbyn yr ymyriad. intervention. I keep hearing about the 1 Rwy’n cadw i glywed am y miliwn o swyddi million jobs that have been created in the sydd wedi cael eu creu yn y sector preifat, private sector, but do you have the number ond a oes gennych y nifer ar gyfer faint o for how many private and public sector jobs swyddi yn y sector preifat a’r sector have been lost under the Tory Government? cyhoeddus sydd wedi cael eu colli o dan y Llywodraeth Dorïaidd?

Mark Isherwood: The net figure in two Mark Isherwood: Mae’r ffigur net mewn years is greater than what Labour achieved in dwy flynedd yn fwy na’r hyn a gyflawnodd 10. You heard at the energy event last night Llafur mewn 10. Clywsoch yn y digwyddiad why companies are not choosing to invest in ynni neithiwr pam nad yw cwmnïau yn dewis Wales. The UK Government has done more buddsoddi yng Nghymru. Mae Llywodraeth y to reform finance and banking than any DU wedi gwneud mwy i ddiwygio cyllid a Government before it. Its Work Programme, bancio nag unrhyw Lywodraeth flaenorol. including that in Rhyl, is supporting job Mae ei Rhaglen Waith, gan gynnwys yr un seekers in Wales to get off and keep off yn y Rhyl, yn cefnogi pobl sy’n ceisio am benefits. In addition to the disabled people in swyddi yng Nghymru i ddod oddi ar fudd- Wales that it supported into work through the daliadau ac aros oddi arnynt. Yn ogystal â’r Work Programme, Remploy helped 2,379 bobl anabl yng Nghymru a gefnogodd i gael disabled people in Wales into work last gwaith drwy’r Rhaglen Waith, gwnaeth year—the highest level in the UK. The UK Remploy helpu 2,379 o bobl anabl yng Government recognises that real growth is Nghymru i mewn i waith y llynedd—y lefel based on a business-friendly economy and is uchaf yn y DU. Mae Llywodraeth y DU yn therefore taking 2 million low-paid people cydnabod bod twf gwirioneddol yn seiliedig out of tax, getting the banks lending, helping ar economi sy’n gyfeillgar i fusnesau, ac felly small businesses, boosting housing in mae’n cymryd 2 filiwn o bobl ar gyflogau England, investing in skills, and creating the isel allan o dreth, yn cael y banciau i most competitive business-tax regime in the fenthyca, yn helpu busnesau bach, yn rhoi developed world. hwb i dai yn Lloegr, yn buddsoddi mewn sgiliau, ac yn creu’r drefn ardrethi busnes mwyaf cystadleuol yn y byd datblygedig.

There is no easy way to rebuild our economy Nid oes unrhyw ffordd hawdd i ailadeiladu after a decade of debt, made even harder by ein heconomi ar ôl degawd o ddyled, a wnaed the headwinds blowing in from the eurozone. hyd yn oed yn fwy anodd gan y gwyntoedd However, there is only one way to build real cryfion sy’n chwythu o ardal yr ewro. Fodd prosperity and Wales is being left behind. In bynnag, dim ond un ffordd sydd i adeiladu recognising that the Welsh Government has ffyniant go iawn, ac mae Cymru’n cael ei failed to utilise the tools at its disposal to gadael ar ôl. Wrth gydnabod bod grow the Welsh economy, we must Llywodraeth Cymru wedi methu â encourage it to work constructively with the defnyddio’r dulliau sydd ar gael iddi i dyfu UK Government to deliver prosperity for the economi Cymru, mae’n rhaid i ni ei hannog i people of Wales. weithio’n adeiladol gyda Llywodraeth y DU i

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sicrhau ffyniant i bobl Cymru.

The Minister for Business, Enterprise, Y Gweinidog Busnes, Menter, Technoleg a Technology and Science (Edwina Hart): Gwyddoniaeth (Edwina Hart): Mae twf a Growth and sustainable jobs are at the heart swyddi cynaliadwy wrth wraidd ein rhaglen of our programme for government. We have lywodraethu. Rydym wedi ei gwneud yn glir made it clear that our focus remains on bod ein ffocws yn parhau i fod ar gefnogi a supporting and boosting our economy and hybu ein heconomi a chanfod pob cyfle i identifying every opportunity to help helpu busnesau yng Nghymru. Y prif businesses in Wales. The main influences on ddylanwadau ar economi Cymru yn y tymor the Welsh economy in the short to medium byr i ganolig yw amodau cyffredinol yr term are the prevailing conditions of the economi fyd-eang a pholisi ariannol a global economy, and the monetary and fiscal chyllidol Llywodraeth y DU; dyna’r rheswm policy of the UK Government; hence, our am ein hail welliant. I roi’r ddadl mewn cyd- second amendment. To put the debate into destun, ni fyddaf yn dyfynnu araith Ann context, I will not quote Ann Jones’s speech, Jones, ond fe wnaeth sôn am rai o’r materion but she did go into some of the wider economaidd ehangach. economic issues.

4.15 p.m.

Only yesterday, the International Monetary Dim ond ddoe, gwnaeth y Gronfa Ariannol Fund assessed that the effect of the UK Ryngwladol asesu bod effaith polisi Government’s policy of fiscal consolidation atgyfnerthu cyllidol Llywodraeth y DU wedi has been to reduce growth by much more lleihau twf gan lawer mwy nag yr oedd than the UK Government has claimed. Taken Llywodraeth y DU wedi honni. O’u cymryd in the round, the figures contained in the IMF gyda’i gilydd, mae’r ffigurau a gynhwysir yn forecast for the UK are exceptionally rhagolwg y Gronfa Ariannol Ryngwladol ar disappointing and confirm that the UK is gyfer y DU yn eithriadol o siomedig ac yn probably engaged in the most severe cadarnhau bod y DU yng nghanol y peacetime recession in 100 years, at least in dirwasgiad mwyaf difrifol ar adeg o heddwch GDP terms. Since the UK’s expected growth mewn 100 mlynedd, o ran CMC o leiaf. Am for 2012 is worse than that for France, fod twf disgwyliedig y DU ar gyfer 2012 yn Germany, and even Europe as a whole, it waeth nag ar gyfer Ffrainc, yr Almaen, a hyd would be implausible for anybody in the UK yn oed Ewrop gyfan, byddai’n anghredadwy i Government to blame the eurozone crisis for unrhyw un yn Llywodraeth y DU roi’r bai ar the whole of this deficiency in economic yr argyfwng yn ardal yr ewro ar gyfer yr holl growth. If the IMF is right on UK prospects diffyg hwn mewn twf economaidd. Os yw’r for next year, unemployment will increase, Gronfa Ariannol Ryngwladol yn iawn ar and so the IMF forecast suggests a need for ragolygon y DU ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf, urgent action by the UK Government to bydd diweithdra’n cynyddu, ac felly mae promote growth. The IMF’s new analysis of rhagolwg y Gronfa Ariannol Ryngwladol yn the impact of fiscal consolidation on growth awgrymu bod angen i Lywodraeth y DU supports the view that there is a strong case weithredu ar frys i hybu twf. Mae for going more slowly with spending cuts. dadansoddiad newydd y Gronfa Ariannol That is what has emerged from the report of Ryngwladol o effaith cyfnerthu cyllidol ar the International Monetary Fund—not from dwf yn cefnogi’r farn bod achos cryf ar gyfer one of my favourite political philosophers, mynd yn fwy araf gyda thoriadau gwariant. but from the IMF. Dyna beth sydd wedi dod i’r amlwg o adroddiad y Gronfa Ariannol Ryngwladol— nid gan un o fy hoff athronwyr gwleidyddol, ond y Gronfa Ariannol Ryngwladol.

Antoinette Sandbach rose— Antoinette Sandbach a gododd—

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Edwina Hart: I will not take an intervention Edwina Hart: Ni dderbyniaf ymyriad ar hyn at this stage. o bryd.

The Welsh Government has taken significant Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi cymryd steps to improve the position of businesses in camau sylweddol i wella sefyllfa busnesau Wales and the environment in which they yng Nghymru a’r amgylchedd y maent yn operate. For example, we have introduced a gweithredu ynddo. Er enghraifft, rydym wedi number of new funds to improve our offering cyflwyno nifer o gronfeydd newydd i wella to business. We have had the Wales ein cynigion i fusnes. Rydym wedi cael y economic growth fund. To date, 118 projects gronfa twf economaidd Cymru. Hyd yma, have been approved under the scheme. We mae 118 o brosiectau wedi’u cymeradwyo o are expecting to create some 1,800 new jobs dan y cynllun. Rydym yn disgwyl creu tua and safeguard 1,600 jobs. There has been a 1,800 o swyddi newydd a diogelu 1,600 o £40 million Wales SME fund, which is swyddi. Cafwyd cronfa busnesau bach a expected to support the creation of 4,000 chanolig Cymru gwerth £40 miliwn, a jobs, a life sciences fund to make Wales an disgwylir iddi gefnogi creu 4,000 o swyddi, a even more attractive location for life chronfa gwyddorau bywyd i wneud Cymru sciences, into which we have already put £25 yn lleoliad hyd yn oed yn fwy deniadol ar million. There has been a £6 million gyfer gwyddorau bywyd, sydd eisoes wedi microbusiness loan fund, which will provide cael £25 miliwn gennym. Cafwyd cronfa the scope to support around 300 businesses. benthyciadau microfusnesau gwerth £6 However, I accept that Mohammad Asghar miliwn, a fydd yn gallu cefnogi tua 300 o has a point about publicity regarding these fusnesau. Fodd bynnag, rwy’n derbyn bod funds, and, as I indicated when I answered gan Mohammad Asghar bwynt am questions earlier, it is an issue that I will be gyhoeddusrwydd ynghylch y cronfeydd taking up with officials. Other schemes have hynny, ac, fel y dywedais wrth ateb included the digital development fund, which cwestiynau yn gynharach, mae’n fater y supported businesses in the creative byddaf yn ei godi gyda swyddogion. Mae industries sector, and our high-potential starts cynlluniau eraill wedi cynnwys y gronfa project to encourage new high-growth datblygu digidol, sy’n cefnogi busnesau yn y business ventures. sector diwydiannau creadigol, ac mae gennym brosiect i fusnesau newydd a chanddynt botensial mawr i annog mentrau busnes newydd sydd â thwf uchel.

Today, I am launching a new pilot SME Heddiw, rwy’n lansio cynllun peilot newydd growth fund, specifically designed to support ar gyfer cronfa twf busnesau bach a chanolig, Wales-based businesses in the energy and a gynlluniwyd yn benodol i gefnogi busnesau environment sector. This fund will initially yng Nghymru yn y sector ynni a’r run for two years and is anticipated will help amgylchedd. Bydd y gronfa hon yn rhedeg to create more than 60 new jobs and am ddwy flynedd i ddechrau a disgwylir y safeguard around 40 jobs in the first 12 bydd yn helpu i greu mwy na 60 o swyddi months. In addition to these specific newydd a diogelu tua 40 o swyddi yn ystod y initiatives to help business to gain access to 12 mis cyntaf. Yn ogystal â’r mentrau finance, we have taken numerous other steps: penodol hyn i helpu busnesau i gael a £50 million package to bring some of the mynediad at gyllid, rydym wedi cymryd world’s top academics to Wales, and a £30 camau niferus eraill: pecyn gwerth £50 million economic stimulus package to miliwn i ddod â rhai o academyddion gorau’r provide more resources for young people in byd i Gymru, a phecyn ysgogiad social housing. The project that we have done economaidd gwerth £30 miliwn i ddarparu in Ely Mill has been innovative in how we mwy o adnoddau ar gyfer pobl ifanc mewn have harnessed resources from the private tai cymdeithasol. Bu ein prosiect ym Melin sector. This can be used as a model again. Trelái yn arloesol o ran sut rydym wedi There is the £30 million from Skills Growth harneisio adnoddau o’r sector preifat. Gellir Wales to create 3,000 jobs over the next three defnyddio hynny fel model eto. Mae £30

87 10/10/2012 years. There are the enterprise zones, which miliwn ar gael trwy Sgiliau Twf Cymru i we are working on, and we have had the greu 3,000 o swyddi dros y tair blynedd reports on business rates and city regions. nesaf. Mae’r ardaloedd menter, yr ydym yn gweithio arnynt, ac rydym wedi cael yr adroddiadau ar ardrethi busnes a dinas- ranbarthau.

Turning to the amendments—and I have I droi at y gwelliannau—ac rwyf eisoes wedi already indicated where we are going with sôn am sut byddwn yn ymateb iddynt—mae them—amendment 1 has been called gwelliant 1 wedi cael ei alw yn bigog, ond churlish, but I simply make the point that we rwy’n gwneud pwynt syml ein bod am nodi are noting this. I am particularly keen to see hyn. Rwy’n arbennig o awyddus i weld beth what emerges from Vince Cable’s excellent a ddaw o gyhoeddiad rhagorol Vince Cable announcement of a bank, but we do need to am y banc, ond mae angen i ni weld see the detail on that. There is a commitment manylion hynny. Mae gan yr adran honno o on the part of that department in the UK Lywodraeth y DU ymrwymiad i weithio ar y Government to work collectively with us and cyd â ni ac i gefnogi mentrau sy’n helpu’r to support initiatives that help the business sector busnes. Byddwn yn cefnogi gwelliant sector. We will be supporting amendment 3, 3, a gynigiwyd gan Alun Ffred Jones. Fel moved by Alun Ffred Jones. As the Minister mae’r Gweinidog Cyllid wedi nodi, rydym yn for finance has indicated, we are looking to a edrych ar nifer o fodelau ar gyfer ariannu number of models for revenue financing refeniw seilwaith ac mae hyn yn cynnwys infrastructure and this includes not-for-profit modelau dosbarthu di-elw. Mae gennym rai distribution models. We have some examples enghreifftiau o fodelau yr ydym wedi edrych of models that we have looked at through the arnynt trwy’r fenter benthyca llywodraeth local government borrowing initiative and the leol a datblygiad Melin Trelái, yr wyf wedi Ely Mill development, which I have sôn amdanynt. Mae datrysiadau cyllid mentioned. There are also very innovative arloesol iawn hefyd yn cael eu defnyddio yn finance solutions being used in the waste y rhaglen gwastraff. O’m rhan ni, dyma’r programme. As far as we are concerned, this cyfeiriad yr ydym yn edrych ato ar gyfer y is the direction of travel for the issues that we materion hyn. are looking at.

We will be supporting the three amendments Byddwn yn cefnogi’r tri gwelliant a moved by Eluned Parrott on behalf of the gynigiwyd gan Eluned Parrott ar ran Welsh Liberal Democrats. I am sorry that the Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru. Mae’n spokesperson is disappointed that the reports ddrwg gennyf fod y llefarydd yn siomedig have not yet come to fruition, but it is nad oedd yr adroddiadau eto wedi dwyn important that we take everyone with us, so ffrwyth, ond mae’n bwysig ein bod yn mynd that we look at the budgetary issues around â phawb gyda ni, er mwyn edrych ar y them. The microbusiness report was materion cyllidebol o’u cwmpas. Cafodd yr implemented straight away, and there is a adroddiad microfusnesau ei weithredu ar fund available. Therefore, you have the unwaith, ac mae cronfa ar gael. Felly, mae update on the enterprise zones and business gennych y wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am yr rates. ardaloedd menter ac ardrethi busnes.

A Welsh manufacturing strategy is also up Mae strategaeth gweithgynhyrchu Cymru and running. I noted that, in his opening hefyd wedi’i sefydlu ac ar waith. Nodais, yn comments, Byron Davies remarked that it is ei sylwadau agoriadol, i Byron Davies important to look at an industrial strategy. ddweud ei bod yn bwysig edrych ar We have always had an industrial strategy strategaeth ddiwydiannol. Rydym wastad and a manufacturing strategy, because we wedi bod â strategaeth ddiwydiannol a implemented a sectoral approach in strategaeth weithgynhyrchu, oherwydd i ni Government a long time ago under a previous weithredu dull sector o weithio yn y Deputy First Minister, and that approach Llywodraeth amser maith yn ôl o dan

88 10/10/2012 dealt with some of those issues. Ddirprwy Brif Weinidog blaenorol, a gwnaeth y dull hwnnw o weithio ddelio â rhai o’r materion hynny.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Thank you for Andrew R.T. Davies: Diolch i chi am allowing me to intervene, although I feel bad ganiatáu imi ymyrryd, er fy mod yn teimlo’n about jumping in at this point. You said that wael am neidio i mewn ar y pwynt hwn. you have a manufacturing strategy, but I Dywedoch fod gennych strategaeth think that it might have passed many people weithgynhyrchu, ond credaf nad oes llawer by, because that was called for yn ymwybodol ohoni, oherwydd galwyd am comprehensively by all parties in the third hynny ar y cyd gan yr holl bleidiau yn y Assembly, but nothing came. What are you trydydd Cynulliad, ond ni ddaeth dim. At referring to when you say that you have a beth ydych yn cyfeirio pan fyddwch yn Welsh manufacturing strategy? dweud bod gennych strategaeth weithgynhyrchu yng Nghymru?

Edwina Hart: It was written by the Welsh Edwina Hart: Cafodd ei hysgrifennu gan manufacturing forum. That is the fforwm gweithgynhyrchu Cymru. Dyna’r manufacturing strategy that has influenced all strategaeth weithgynhyrchu sydd wedi the activities of the sectors. dylanwadu ar holl weithgareddau’r sectorau.

The UK Government is currently awaiting Mae Llywodraeth y DU ar hyn o bryd yn aros approval from the European Commission for am gymeradwyaeth gan y Comisiwn its framework broadband scheme, which Ewropeaidd ar gyfer ei fframwaith cynllun includes the Wales programme. Once that is band eang, sy’n cynnwys rhaglen Cymru. Pan known, we will advise you. fydd hwnnw’n hysbys, byddwn yn eich cynghori.

With regard to amendment 5, we are, in O ran gwelliant 5, rydym, mewn egwyddor, principle, supportive of the establishment of a yn cefnogi sefydlu banc buddsoddi gwyrdd. green investment bank. There is a strong case Mae achos cryf dros ymyrraeth gan y for Government intervention in this area as a Llywodraeth yn y maes hwn o ganlyniad i result of market failures, and I think that it is fethiannau yn y farchnad, ac yr wyf yn very important that we give it our support. meddwl ei bod yn bwysig iawn ein bod yn ei We were obviously disappointed about our chefnogi. Roeddem yn siomedig am ein cais bid in respect of Cardiff, but I will not go yng Nghaerdydd, ond nid wyf am fynd dros over old ground. hen dir.

On the last amendment submitted by the Ar welliant olaf y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, Liberal Democrats, the Minister for Local mae’r Gweinidog Llywodraeth Leol a Government and Communities is seeking a Chymunedau yn ceisio trefnu cyfarfod gyda’r meeting with the Secretary of State for Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Drafnidiaeth i Transport to discuss the issue of rail in north drafod rheilffyrdd yng ngogledd Cymru. Wales. Therefore, I think that it is quite clear Felly, credaf ei bod yn gwbl glir ein bod yn that we understand the points that you make deall y pwyntiau yr ydych yn eu gwneud o with regard to that particular discussion. ran y drafodaeth benodol honno.

Therefore, as I have indicated, we are very Felly, fel y dywedais, rydym yn gefnogol supportive of those amendments. Much has iawn i’r gwelliannau hynny. Mae llawer o been made of our not working with anyone, sôn wedi bod nad ydym yn gweithio gydag but we are working extremely well with UK unrhyw un, ond rydym yn gweithio’n hynod Trade and Investment. We have taken action o dda gyda Masnach a Buddsoddi y DU. to support international trade and investment, Rydym wedi cymryd camau i gefnogi we have established a team to lead on high- masnach a buddsoddiad rhyngwladol, rydym quality work, we have UKTI officials visiting wedi sefydlu tîm i arwain ar waith o ansawdd

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Wales, and we have arrangements with UKTI uchel, ac mae swyddogion Masnach a for some of its officials to be based in Wales. Buddsoddi y DU yn ymweld â Chymru, ac We have an excellent relationship with the mae trefniadau i leoli rhai o swyddogion department. Lord Green came to the last Masnach a Buddsoddi y DU yng Nghymru. council for economic renewal, as did Lord Mae gennym berthynas ardderchog â’r adran. Heseltine, to talk about his report for the UK Daeth yr Arglwydd Green i’r cyngor Government on competitiveness, which looks diwethaf ar gyfer adnewyddu’r economi, fel at England in particular. It is important that y gwnaeth yr Arglwydd Heseltine, i siarad we work with the UK Government where we am ei adroddiad i Lywodraeth y DU ar can. My colleagues have meetings with the gystadleurwydd, sy’n edrych ar Loegr yn UK Government. I will meet the new arbennig. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn gweithio Secretary of State for Wales in the course of â Llywodraeth y DU lle y gallwn. Mae fy the next weeks and I already have a meeting nghydweithwyr yn cael cyfarfodydd â with Baroness Randerson in the diary and Llywodraeth y DU. Byddaf yn cwrdd ag hope to have a meeting with Stephen Crabb Ysgrifennydd Gwladol newydd Cymru yn yr about the issues that are of mutual interest to wythnosau nesaf ac mae eisoes gennyf us. gyfarfod gyda’r Farwnes Randerson yn fy nyddiadur ac rwy’n gobeithio cael cyfarfod â Stephen Crabb am y materion sydd o ddiddordeb cyffredin i ni.

Byron Davies made an important point about Gwnaeth Byron Davies bwynt pwysig am y the opportunities for jobs that come from the cyfleoedd swyddi sy’n dod o ganlyniad i electrification of the railway. A lot of work is drydaneiddio’r rheilffordd. Mae llawer o already being done by officials across the waith eisoes yn cael ei wneud gan departments and with industry to see how we swyddogion ar draws yr adrannau ac ar y cyd can make the most of the opportunities that â diwydiant i weld sut y gallwn wneud y could provide. Therefore, in very real terms, mwyaf o’r cyfleoedd y gallai hynny eu it has been a very useful discussion about the darparu. Felly, mewn termau real, mae wedi economy, and I am sure that it is a subject bod yn drafodaeth ddefnyddiol iawn am yr that we will return to time and again. economi, ac rwy’n siŵr ei fod yn bwnc y byddwn yn dychwelyd ato dro ar ôl tro.

Andrew R.T. Davies: I welcome the Andrew R.T. Davies: Croesawaf y cyfle i opportunity to respond to this debate today. ymateb i’r ddadl hon heddiw. Cafwyd nifer o There have been many contributions from gyfraniadau o amgylch y Siambr, ond rwyf around the Chamber, but I will start with am ddechrau gyda chyfraniad Julie Morgan, Julie Morgan’s contribution, because she is gan ei bod yn hollol iawn i nodi’r pethau quite right to identify the positives in Wales. cadarnhaol yng Nghymru. Mae llawer o There are many positives and there are bethau cadarnhaol a cheir enghreifftiau i’w examples to be celebrated, such as Airbus, dathlu, megis Airbus, gwaith EADS yng the EADS operation in Newport, and GE, Nghasnewydd, a GE, yr ydych hefyd wedi which you also touched on. You can drive sôn amdanynt. Gallwch yrru i unrhyw le yng anywhere in Wales and find examples of Nghymru a dod o hyd i enghreifftiau lle mae where people have moved into Wales and, pobl wedi symud i Gymru ac, er eu bod wedi while they may have indicated that they dweud y byddent yn aros am gyfnod byr yn would stay for only a short period of time, unig, maent wedi treulio gweddill eu they have ended up spending the rest of their bywydau yma ar ôl darganfod ei bod yn wlad lives here because they find it a great country wych i fyw ynddi ac i fagu plant, a hefyd bod in which to live and bring up their children, eu cwmnïau wedi ymsefydlu ac wedi but their companies also bed down and are a llwyddo. Fodd bynnag, ar ochr arall y success story. However, on the other side of geiniog, yn anffodus, mae heriau mawr i the coin, regrettably, there are major fusnesau yng Nghymru. Mae’r pwynt am challenges for businesses in Wales. The point Bosch yn pwysleisio hynny. Ar un adeg, about Bosch emphasised that. At one time, roedd Bosch yn cyflogi 1,500 o bobl ar y

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Bosch employed 1,500 people on the site in safle ym Meisgyn. Er bod y cwmni newydd, Miskin. While it is very welcome that, today, Renishaw, sy’n agor ei ddrysau heddiw, yn the new company, Renishaw, has opened its cael croeso, mae’n sôn am gyflogi ychydig doors, it is talking about employing a couple gannoedd ar y mwyaf ar y safle hwnnw. Mae of hundred at most on that site. We need a far angen pecyn llawer mwy cynhwysfawr o more comprehensive package of inward gynigion mewnfuddsoddi i ddenu busnesau i investment proposals to attract businesses Gymru i wneud iawn am y nifer o gwmnïau into Wales to make up for many of the other eraill sydd wedi gadael, megis Sony ac eraill companies that have decamped, such as Sony sydd wedi lleihau eu presenoldeb, megis and others that have downsized, such as Panasonic. Felly, ymunaf â chi i ddathlu’r Panasonic. Therefore, I join you in llwyddiannau, ond credaf fod angen i ni fod celebrating the success stories, but I think yn realistig ynghylch yr heriau sy’n ein that we need to be realistic about the hwynebu. challenges that we face.

Earlier this week, I was in Birmingham, as Yn gynharach yr wythnos hon, roeddwn yn were many Conservatives. Birmingham has Birmingham, fel yr oedd llawer o its own enterprise zone, which is the most Geidwadwyr. Mae gan Birmingham ei hardal successful enterprise zone in the country, I fenter ei hun, sef yr ardal fenter mwyaf might add. When you compare the actions llwyddiannus yn y wlad, dylwn ychwanegu. that Birmingham, Bristol and any of the other Pan fyddwch yn cymharu’r camau y mae English cities have taken, you see that we Birmingham, Bryste ac unrhyw un o’r really are still in the changing room on the dinasoedd eraill yn Lloegr wedi’u cymryd, enterprise zone strategy, and not even on the byddwch yn gweld ein bod mewn gwirionedd track. As Eluned Parrott touched upon, in yn dal yn yr ystafelloedd newid o ran ein Bristol, for example, the plans are up and strategaeth ardal fenter, ac nid hyd yn oed ar running. The developers are virtually digging y trac. Fel y dywedodd Eluned Parrott, ym in the ground to get the enterprise zone up Mryste, er enghraifft, mae’r cynlluniau ar and running there. That is a major competitor waith. Mae’r datblygwyr yn cloddio yn y for any investment in south-east Wales. ddaear i sefydlu’r ardal fenter yno. Mae’n Many times, when I have spoken to gystadleuydd o bwys i unrhyw fuddsoddiad businesses in south-east Wales, they have yn ne-ddwyrain Cymru. Droeon, wrth i mi told me that the draw of the south-west of siarad â busnesau yn ne-ddwyrain Cymru, England is a massive concern to them. We maent wedi dweud wrthyf fod atyniad de- see the flight of businesses to that area. My orllewin Lloegr yn bryder mawr iddynt. colleague, Byron Davies, in his questioning Rydym yn gweld busnesau’n symud i’r ardal of the First Minister yesterday, and you honno. Mae fy nghydweithiwr, Byron today, Minister, touched on the level of Davies, wrth holi’r Prif Weinidog ddoe, a chi support for indigenous businesses in Wales to heddiw, Weinidog, wedi sôn bod angen grow and expand, as opposed to businesses cymorth ar fusnesau cynhenid yng Nghymru i that may be looking to relocate. That is a real dyfu ac ehangu, ac nid busnesau sy’n meddwl issue and, sadly, we did not get a substantive am adleoli. Mae honno’n broblem go iawn answer. I appreciate that you said that you ac, yn anffodus, ni chawsom ateb were going to write, so I look forward to cynhwysfawr. Rwy’n gwerthfawrogi eich seeing what you will do to address those bod wedi dweud eich bod yn mynd i concerns. ysgrifennu, felly edrychaf ymlaen at weld beth fyddwch yn ei wneud i fynd i’r afael â’r pryderon hynny.

My colleague, Byron Davies, also touched on Mae fy nghydweithiwr, Byron Davies, hefyd the very real need for a comprehensive wedi sôn am yr angen gwirioneddol am engagement with the UK Government, ymgysylltiad cyflawn gyda Llywodraeth y because many of the levers for development DU, oherwydd nad yw llawer o’r pwerau i and inward investment do not reside with the ddatblygu a mewnfuddsoddi yn nwylo Welsh Government. It needs a joined-up Llywodraeth Cymru. Mae angen dull

91 10/10/2012 approach. The rail electrification scheme, for cydgysylltiedig o weithio. Mae’r cynllun example, is a classic case: a joined-up team trydaneiddio’r rheilffyrdd, er enghraifft, yn approach ultimately secured £2 billion-worth achos clasurol: gwnaeth dull cydgysylltiedig of investment into Wales, and that will o weithio mewn tîm sicrhau buddsoddiad improve the employment opportunities for gwerth £2 biliwn i Gymru, a fydd yn gwella two thirds of the people of Wales. That is a cyfleoedd cyflogaeth i ddwy ran o dair o bobl massive signal of confidence in Wales by the Cymru. Mae hynny’n arwydd enfawr o hyder UK Government, and is unprecedented in its yng Nghymru gan Lywodraeth y DU, ac scale. Just look at what the development of mae’n ddigynsail o ran ei faint. Ystyriwch the metro region will do: as I said, two thirds beth fydd datblygiad y rhanbarth metro yn ei of the population of Wales will benefit from wneud: fel y dywedais, bydd dwy ran o dair o that investment. As our new Secretary of boblogaeth Cymru yn elwa o’r buddsoddiad State has identified, he, too, now wants to hwnnw. Fel mae ein Hysgrifennydd Gwladol work co-operatively with the Welsh newydd wedi’i ddweud, mae ef yn awyddus i Government to improve transport links weithio ar y cyd â Llywodraeth Cymru i around Wales, particularly in north Wales. wella cysylltiadau trafnidiaeth o amgylch My colleague, Janet Finch-Saunders, touched Cymru, yn enwedig yng ngogledd Cymru. on how the new Secretary of State is very Mae fy nghydweithiwr, Janet Finch- keen to explore what opportunities are Saunders, wedi sôn am sut mae’r available. I was pleased to hear from the Ysgrifennydd Gwladol newydd yn awyddus Minister that she has meetings with the two iawn i archwilio pa gyfleoedd sydd ar gael. junior Ministers and the Secretary of State Rwy’n falch o glywed gan y Gweinidog bod scheduled in her diary already. Hopefully, ganddi gyfarfodydd gyda’r ddau is-Weinidog this new co-operative mode will bring a’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol eisoes wedi’u dividends to Wales. trefnu yn ei dyddiadur. Gobeithio y bydd y dull cydweithredol newydd hyn o weithio yn dod â difidendau i Gymru.

We had an exercise in UK Government- Cawsom ymarfer lladd ar Lywodraeth y DU bashing from Ann Jones. First of all, she gan Ann Jones. Yn gyntaf, aeth ymlaen am y went on about the reduction of the 50p tax gostyngiad o 50c i 45c yn y dreth. Rwy’n down to 45p. I appreciate that the Member is gwerthfawrogi nad yw’r Aelod yn ei sedd, not in her seat, but I think that the points that ond credaf fod angen herio ei phwyntiau. O she made need to be challenged. Under the dan y Llywodraeth Lafur, pan aeth allan yn Labour Government, when it went out in 2010, lefel y dreth honno oedd 40c yn y bunt, 2010, the level of that tax was 40p in the yn hytrach na 45c yn y bunt fel y bydd ym pound, as opposed to 45p in the pound in mis Ebrill. Felly, roeddech yn trethu llai nag April. Therefore, you were taxing less than y bydd Llywodraeth y glymblaid yn trethu the coalition Government will be taxing in ym mis Ebrill. Mae’n rhaid i chi daro April. What you have to do is strike the cydbwysedd rhwng yr hyn a fydd yn annog balance between what will encourage an ysbryd entrepreneuraidd a chadw cyfalaf y entrepreneurial spirit and the retention of bobl sy’n barod i gymryd y risg ac angen y capital by people who are prepared to take wladwriaeth i godi refeniw treth i ddarparu the risk with the need of the state to raise tax gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Fe’i gelwir yn revenue to provide for public services. It is entrepreneuriaeth ac mae’n ymwneud â called entrepreneurism and it is about not pheidio â bod yn genfigennus, ond dweud having envy but saying to someone ‘Go on, wrth rywun ‘Ewch amdani, mentrwch.’ Naw take a punt on it.’ Nine times out of 10, when gwaith allan o 10, pan fydd hynny’n that works, it creates jobs, believe it or not. gweithio, mae’n creu swyddi, credwch neu beidio.

We also heard about regional pay and a nurse Rydym hefyd wedi clywed am dâl being paid less in north Wales than in the rest rhanbarthol a nyrs yn cael ei thalu llai yng of the UK. It was a very emotive example to ngogledd Cymru nag yng ngweddill y DU. use. My party has indicated that it does not Roedd yn enghraifft hynod o emosiynol i’w

92 10/10/2012 support regional pay. The Labour Party defnyddio. Mae fy mhlaid wedi nodi nad introduced regional pay in Wales in 2008 for yw’n cefnogi tâl rhanbarthol. Gwnaeth y workers in the justice system. That is a fact, Blaid Lafur gyflwyno tâl rhanbarthol yng and you can look back to the Secretary of Nghymru yn 2008 ar gyfer gweithwyr yn y State at the time, Paul Murphy, who talked system gyfiawnder. Mae hynny’n ffaith, a about that. You can also refer to the examples gallwch edrych yn ôl at yr Ysgrifennydd used by Liam Byrne’s in the House of Gwladol ar y pryd, Paul Murphy, a siaradodd Commons, when he was talking about am hynny. Gallwch hefyd gyfeirio at welfare and benefits and regional pay if a enghreifftiau Liam Byrne yn Nhŷ’r Labour Government were in power in the Cyffredin, pan oedd yn siarad am les a budd- UK. Therefore, it is looking both ways from daliadau a thâl rhanbarthol os byddai the Labour Party here. If you want to use Llywodraeth Lafur mewn grym yn y DU. examples, you need to start speaking to your Felly, mae’n edrych i’r ddau gyfeiriad o’r colleagues in London to ensure that you take Blaid Lafur yma. Os ydych am ddefnyddio a joined-up approach. On the economic and enghreifftiau, mae angen i chi ddechrau investment front, Ed Miliband might have siarad â’ch cydweithwyr yn Llundain i stood on the stage in Manchester last week sicrhau eich bod yn gweithio mewn ffordd and talked for an hour and five minutes, but gydgysylltiedig. O ran yr economi a he did not offer one solution or example of a buddsoddi, efallai fod Ed Miliband wedi coherent economic strategy coming from sefyll ar y llwyfan ym Manceinion yr your party. He talked about ‘One nation’, but wythnos diwethaf a siarad am awr a phum actually the politics of envy that the Labour munud, ond ni chynigiodd yr un ateb nac Party practises would divide our nation. What enghraifft o strategaeth economaidd we need to do is instil more aspiration in resymegol gan eich plaid. Soniodd am un people, so that we can achieve. genedl, ond byddai gwleidyddiaeth genfigennus y Blaid Lafur yn rhannu ein cenedl. Mae angen inni feithrin mwy o ddyhead mewn pobl, er mwyn inni allu cyflawni.

As Mark Isherwood and Oscar, Mohammad Fel y dywedodd Mark Isherwood ac Oscar, Asghar, touched on, the real point is that, in Mohammad Asghar, y pwynt gwirioneddol the past, people have not been allowed to yw, yn y gorffennol, nad yw pobl wedi gallu have the opportunities. As Mohammad cael cyfleoedd. Fel y dywedodd Mohammad Asghar mentioned, Barack Obama, speaking Asghar, trafododd Barack Obama, wrth only a couple of weeks ago, discussed the siarad rai wythnosau yn ôl, am rôl y roles of Government and the private sector. I Llywodraeth a’r sector preifat. Roeddwn i’n thought that that was a good example to use. meddwl bod hynny’n enghraifft dda i’w However, I have to be careful, because the defnyddio. Fodd bynnag, rhaid i mi fod yn other day, I found out that I am related to the ofalus, oherwydd y diwrnod o’r blaen, cefais Republican challenger, so, I suppose that that wybod fy mod yn perthyn i’r Gweriniaethwr is a bit of an issue. [Laughter.] I thought that sy’n ei wrthwynebu, felly, gallai hynny fod that would create much hilarity. I look yn dipyn o broblem. [Chwerthin.] Roeddwn forward to going to the White House shortly. i’n meddwl y byddai hynny’n creu llawer o ddigrifwch. Edrychaf ymlaen at fynd i’r Tŷ Gwyn yn fuan.

4.30 p.m.

In respect of Alun Ffred Jones’s example of O ran enghraifft Alun Ffred Jones o’r hyn y what Plaid Cymru would seek to do about byddai Plaid Cymru yn ceisio ei wneud bonds and borrowing, we agree with the ynghylch bondiau a benthyca, rydym yn borrowing argument; you will not find us cytuno â’r ddadl fenthyca; ni fyddwch yn ein disagreeing with that. Further to the question clywed yn anghytuno â hynny. Yn dilyn y that I put to the Minister for Finance today, cwestiwn a ofynnais i’r Gweinidog Cyllid

93 10/10/2012 borrowing can be a useful tool, but you also heddiw, gall benthyca fod yn arf defnyddiol, need a mechanism to service that borrowing ond mae angen mecanwaith i wasanaethu’r and repay it. Ultimately, you talk about bonds benthyciad hwnnw a’i ad-dalu. Yn y pen but using UK credentials to borrow those draw, rydych yn siarad am fondiau ond yn bonds, which is quite interesting coming defnyddio cymwysterau’r DU i fenthyg y from a separatist party because, ultimately, if bondiau hynny, sy’n eithaf diddorol yn dod o you went on your own credentials to borrow, blaid ymwahanol oherwydd, yn y pen draw, you would find that you would be paying os fyddech yn mynd ar eich cymwysterau exorbitant interest rates and they would not eich hun i fenthyg, byddech yn gweld y be of any value to Wales. Therefore, we are byddech yn talu cyfraddau llog afresymol ac agreed on one point, but ultimately you need na fyddent o unrhyw werth i Gymru. Felly, a joined-up UK approach to make sure that rydym yn cytuno ar un pwynt, ond yn y pen Wales actually prospers. The separatists draw bydd angen dull cydgysylltiedig ledled always fail to identify a coherent economic y DU i wneud yn siŵr bod Cymru’n ffynnu argument as to how they would develop a yn wirioneddol. Mae’r ymwahanwyr bob separate Welsh economy detached from the amser yn methu â nodi dadl economaidd rest of the United Kingdom. gydlynol o ran sut y byddent yn datblygu economi Gymreig sydd ar wahân i weddill y Deyrnas Unedig.

Today, we have before us a clear motion that Heddiw, mae cynnig clir ger ein bron sy’n seeks to build better co-operation, and to ceisio meithrin gwell cydweithrediad, a nodi identify some of the levers that the Welsh rhai o’r dulliau nad yw Llywodraeth Cymru Government has not been using to make a wedi eu defnyddio i wneud cynnig better economic offering to companies economaidd gwell i gwmnïau sy’n edrych i looking to locate in Wales. That was shown, symud i Gymru. Dangoswyd hynny, unwaith again, by the comments of Mark Isherwood eto, gan sylwadau Mark Isherwood ar y on the inward investment figures, given that ffigurau mewnfuddsoddi, o ystyried mai ni we were once one of the most attractive oedd, ar un adeg, un o’r mannau mwyaf places for inward investment. Regrettably, deniadol ar gyfer mewnfuddsoddi. Yn figures published not by the Conservatives or anffodus, mae ffigurau a gyhoeddwyd nid by the UK Government, but by the European gan y Ceidwadwyr neu gan Lywodraeth y Commission, now indicate that we are the DU, ond gan y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd, yn least attractive part of the United Kingdom, dangos mai ni, bellach, yw’r rhan leiaf despite the United Kingdom now being the deniadol o’r Deyrnas Unedig, er gwaethaf y most attractive part of Europe for inward ffaith mai’r Deyrnas Unedig erbyn hyn yw’r investment. That is quite a damning rhan fwyaf deniadol o Ewrop ar gyfer indictment. Therefore, it is incumbent on the mewnfuddsoddi. Mae honno’n feirniadaeth Government to build on the co-operation that eithaf damniol. Felly, mae’n ddyletswydd ar this motion seems to put down today, and to y Llywodraeth i adeiladu ar y cydweithrediad now act on many of the initiatives that the y mae’r cynnig hwn yn ei nodi heddiw, ac i Minister touched upon. She talked about the weithredu ar nifer o’r mentrau y soniodd y city regions initiative, enterprise zones and Gweinidog amdanynt. Siaradodd am y fenter business rates. All of these are welcome dinas-ranbarthau, ardaloedd menter ac initiatives, but we now need clear decisions ardrethi busnes. Mae pob un o’r rhain yn from the Minister on starting to implement fentrau i’w croesawu, ond yn awr mae angen those policies and that environment so that penderfyniadau clir gan y Gweinidog ar business can start to do better. ddechrau gweithredu’r polisïau hynny, a’r amgylchedd hwnnw, fel y gall busnes ddechrau gwneud yn well.

On business rates, as Mohammad Asghar O ran ardrethi busnes, fel y dywedodd touched upon, it has been a long-standing Mohammad Asghar, mae wedi bod yn bolisi Conservative policy to make sure that hirsefydlog gan y Ceidwadwyr i wneud yn businesses with a rateable value of up to siŵr na ddylai busnesau sydd â gwerth

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£12,500 enjoy no business rates at all, with a ardrethol o hyd at £12,500 dalu dim ardrethi taper up to £15,000. That would be a busnes o gwbl, gyda thapr hyd at £15,000. fundamental way of keeping capital on Byddai hynny’n ffordd sylfaenol o gadw companies’ balance sheets so that they could cyfalaf ar fantolenni cwmnïau er mwyn invest in their businesses and maintain jobs in iddynt fuddsoddi yn eu busnesau a chadw the locality. That is a simple way that the swyddi yn yr ardal. Mae hynny’n ffordd syml Welsh Government could make a massive y gallai Llywodraeth Cymru wneud difference, but we are not getting these gwahaniaeth enfawr, ond nid ydym yn cael y decisions. I heard exactly what you said, penderfyniadau hyn. Clywais yn union beth a Minister, about taking ‘everyone along with ddywedasoch, Weinidog, am gymryd pawb you’, but sometimes you cannot take gyda chi, ond weithiau ni allwch gymryd everyone along and you have to just go with bawb gyda chi a rhaid i chi weithredu’n your gut feeling, be the Minister, face up to it reddfol, bod yn Weinidog, wynebu hynny a and make those decisions. I know that, gwneud y penderfyniadau. Rwy’n gwybod, historically, you have been a good Minister at yn hanesyddol, yr ydych wedi bod yn doing that, but we are now in the boat and we Weinidog da am wneud hynny, ond rydym yn need to get that boat sailing. We need to awr yn y cwch ac mae angen dechrau make sure that unemployment levels, which hwylio’r cwch hwnnw. Mae angen inni are falling in other parts of the United sicrhau bod lefelau diweithdra, sy’n disgyn Kingdom, start to fall substantially here in mewn rhannau eraill o’r Deyrnas Unedig, yn Wales, and ensure that we can enjoy and dechrau disgyn yn sylweddol yma yng point to record levels of low interest rates and Nghymru, ac mae angen sicrhau y gallwn falling inflation. That is a recipe that shows fwynhau lefelau cyfradd llog isaf erioed a that we are getting the economic conditions chwyddiant sy’n gostwng, a chyfeirio at y right in London, but here, we need decisions pethau hyn. Mae hynny’n rysáit sy’n dangos taken in the best interests of the economy in ein bod yn cael yr amodau economaidd yn Wales. I commend this motion to the gywir yn Llundain, ond yma, mae angen Assembly this afternoon. penderfyniadau a wneir er lles yr economi yng Nghymru. Cymeradwyaf y cynnig hwn i’r Cynulliad y prynhawn yma.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Y cwestiwn yw a proposal is to agree the motion without ddylid cytuno ar y cynnig heb ei ddiwygio. A amendment. Does any Member object? I see oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad? Gwelaf fod; that there is objection, therefore I will defer felly, byddaf yn gohirio’r holl bleidleisiau ar voting on this item until voting time. yr eitem hon tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

Gohiriwyd y pleidleisio tan y cyfnod pleidleisio. Voting deferred until voting time.

Dadl Plaid Cymru Plaid Cymru Debate

Rheilffyrdd Railways

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Rwyf wedi dethol The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have gwelliannau 1, 3, 7, 8 a 9 yn enw William selected amendments 1, 3, 7, 8 and 9 in the Graham, gwelliannau 4, 6, 10 ac 11 yn enw name of William Graham, amendments 4, 6, Aled Roberts, a gwelliant 5 yn enw Jane 10 and 11 in the name of Aled Roberts, and Hutt. Yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif amendment 5 in the name of Jane Hutt. In 12.23(iii), nid wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 2 yn accordance with Standing Order No. enw Aled Roberts. Os derbynnir gwelliant 3, 12.23(iii), I have not selected amendment 2 bydd gwelliannau 4, 5 a 6 yn cael eu dad- in the name of Aled Roberts. If amendment 3

95 10/10/2012 ddethol. Os derbynnir gwelliant 4, bydd is agreed, amendments 4, 5 and 6 will be gwelliant 5 yn cael ei ddad-ddethol. deselected. If amendment 4 is agreed, amendment 5 will be deselected.

Cynnig NDM5059 Jocelyn Davies Motion NDM5059 Jocelyn Davies

Mae Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru: The National Assembly for Wales:

1. Yn nodi pwysigrwydd masnachfraint Prif 1. Notes the importance of the West Coast Reilffordd Arfordir y Gorllewin i Main Line (WCML) franchise to rail services wasanaethau rheilffyrdd yng ngogledd in north Wales and recognises the UK Cymru ac yn cydnabod blerwch Llywodraeth Government’s incompetence in dealing with y DU wrth ddelio â masnachfraint Prif the recent WCML franchise. Reilffordd Arfordir y Gorllewin yn ddiweddar.

2. Yn nodi bod gan Lywodraeth y DU 2. Notes that the UK Government retains a swyddogaeth gydlofnodi o hyd ym joint-signatory role in the Wales and Borders masnachfraint Cymru a’r Gororau. franchise.

3. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i: 3. Calls on the Welsh Government to: a) ceisio cyfrifoldeb llawn dros adnewyddu a) seek full responsibility for the Wales and masnachfraint Cymru a’r Gororau; Borders franchise renewal; b) ceisio datganoli’r gyllideb a’r pwerau b) seek devolution of rail infrastructure dros y seilwaith rheilffyrdd; ac powers and budget; and c) sicrhau bod model di-elw yn cael ei greu c) ensure the creation of a not-for-profit ar gyfer masnachfraint Cymru a’r Gororau. model for the Wales and Borders franchise.

Leanne Wood: I move the motion. Leanne Wood: Cynigiaf y cynnig.

This is a timely motion about the state of the Mae’r cynnig hwn yn un amserol am gyflwr franchising system on our railways. Last system fasnachfraint ein rheilffyrdd. Yr week, the franchise process for the West wythnos diwethaf, cafodd y broses Coast main line was scrapped after serious fasnachfraint ar gyfer prif reilffordd Arfordir errors in the process were uncovered. Also, y Gorllewin ei dileu ar ôl i wallau difrifol yn with less fanfare, the renewal of the franchise y broses gael eu datgelu. Hefyd, gan ddenu on the Great Western main line was llai o sylw, cafodd y broses o adnewyddu’r suspended. These make up two of the three fasnachfraint ar gyfer prif reilffordd Great franchises that serve the railways in Wales. I Western ei hatal. Mae’r rhain yn cynrychioli have no intention of scapegoating the civil dwy o’r tair masnachfraint sy’n servants involved in this, who were more gwasanaethu’r rheilffyrdd yng Nghymru. Nid than likely severely under-resourced while oes gennyf unrhyw fwriad o greu bwch doing their jobs, but I do want to re-examine dihangol o’r gweision sifil sy’n gysylltiedig â the very principles of the franchising and hyn, a oedd yn fwy na thebyg yn dioddef privatisation system and how they apply to diffyg adnoddau difrifol wrth wneud eu Wales. We are not here today to criticise the gwaith, ond rwy’n awyddus i ail-edrych ar train companies. Instead, we will be focusing union egwyddorion y system fasnachfraint a on the arrangements themselves and on how phreifateiddio a sut y maent yn gymwys i future decisions will be made. Gymru. Nid ydym yma heddiw i feirniadu’r cwmnïau trên. Yn hytrach na hynny, byddwn yn canolbwyntio ar y trefniadau eu hunain ac ar sut y bydd y penderfyniadau hyn yn cael

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eu gwneud yn y dyfodol.

Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales has Mae Plaid Cymru wedi gwrthwynebu’n consistently opposed the privatisation of the gyson preifateiddio’r rhwydwaith rheilffyrdd. railway network. We believe that major Rydym yn credu y dylai seilwaith ar raddfa infrastructure should operate for the wider fawr weithredu er lles ehangach ein benefit of our economy and communities, heconomi a’n cymunedau, ac na ddylai arian and that money which could be spent on y gellid ei wario ar wella’r gwasanaethau hyn improving these services should not be gael ei ddargyfeirio i bocedi cyfranddalwyr diverted into the pockets of shareholders who sy’n cymryd risgiau minimol o ran take minimal investment risks. buddsoddi.

I have already mentioned the West Coast Rwyf eisoes wedi crybwyll masnachfreintiau main line and the Great Western main line prif reilffordd Arfordir y Gorllewin a phrif franchises. The third franchise that services linell Great Western. Y drydedd fasnachfraint Wales is the Wales and borders franchise, sy’n gwasanaethu Cymru yw masnachfraint currently operated by Arriva Trains Wales Cymru a’r Gororau, a weithredir ar hyn o until 2018, with a five-year franchise review bryd gan Arriva Trains Cymru tan 2018, due next year. The franchise was awarded in gydag adolygiad masnachfraint ar ôl pum 2003 on a no-growth basis, meaning that mlynedd yn digwydd y flwyddyn nesaf. considerable extra funding for service Dyfarnwyd y fasnachfraint yn 2003 ar sail di- improvements has had to come from Welsh dwf, sy’n golygu bod yn rhaid i gryn dipyn o Government public service budgets. In 2006, arian ychwanegol ar gyfer gwelliannau i’r the UK Government gave the Welsh gwasanaeth ddod o gyllideb gwasanaethau Government joint control of the franchise, cyhoeddus Llywodraeth Cymru. Yn 2006, along with a budget transfer. Since then, rhoddodd Llywodraeth y DU reolaeth ar y successive Welsh Governments have topped cyd dros y fasnachfraint i Lywodraeth up that transfer with their own funds in a bid Cymru, ynghyd â throsglwyddo’r gyllideb. to try to expand services, improve reliability Ers hynny, mae Llywodraethau olynol yng and deliver train services to areas of Wales Nghymru wedi ychwanegu at y that were previously marginalised. However, trosglwyddiad hwnnw gyda’u harian eu in effect, Welsh commuters have suffered a hunain mewn ymgais i geisio ehangu decade of overcrowding. That has been a gwasanaethau, gwella dibynadwyedd a particular problem for tourist trains west of darparu gwasanaethau trên i rannau o Gymru Swansea and in the north of our country. a oedd yn flaenorol ar y cyrion. Fodd bynnag, mewn gwirionedd, mae cymudwyr Cymru wedi dioddef degawd o orlenwi. Mae honno wedi bod yn broblem arbennig ar gyfer trenau twristiaeth i’r gorllewin o Abertawe ac yng ngogledd ein gwlad.

So, where do we go from here? Our National Felly, i ble’r awn oddi yma? Mae ein Assembly seems to have a majority in favour Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn ymddangos i fod â of putting the Wales and borders franchise mwyafrif o blaid rhoi masnachfraint Cymru into the hands of a not-for-dividend a’r Gororau yn nwylo cwmni di-ddifidend. company. Such a model could take many Gallai model o’r fath fod ar sawl ffurf, ac yn forms, and Professor Stuart Cole recently set ddiweddar amlinellodd yr Athro Stuart Cole out many of these options in an article in lawer o’r opsiynau hyn mewn erthygl yng Agenda magazine. A not-for-dividend model nghylchgrawn Agenda. Gallai model di- could be a publicly owned company, a co- ddifidend fod yn gwmni sy’n eiddo operative or an independent company limited cyhoeddus, yn gwmni cydweithredol neu’n by guarantee, along the lines of Network Rail gwmni annibynnol sy’n gyfyngedig trwy or Glas Cymru. Our most important aim is warant, yn yr un modd â Network Rail neu that the Welsh Government ensures that a Glas Cymru. Ein nod pwysicaf yw bod model based on the reinvestment of profit is Llywodraeth Cymru yn sicrhau mai model

97 10/10/2012 what finally happens. sy’n seiliedig ar ail-fuddsoddi sy’n digwydd yn y pen draw.

The Welsh Government said in its election Dywedodd Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei manifesto that it would examine the maniffesto etholiad y byddai’n edrych ar y feasibility of running the Wales and borders posibilrwydd o redeg masnachfraint Cymru rail franchise on a not-for-dividend basis, that a’r Gororau ar sail di-ddifidend; hynny yw, is, not for distributable profit. I would heb fod ar gyfer elw dosbarthadwy. Byddwn imagine that this election pledge will form yn dychmygu y bydd yr addewid etholiad the basis of its response to this debate. hwn yn sail i’w hymateb i’r ddadl hon. Fodd However, it would also be good to hear from bynnag, byddai hefyd yn dda clywed gan y the Government about the progress being Llywodraeth am y cynnydd sy’n cael ei made on its other election manifesto pledges, wneud ar ei haddewidion maniffesto etholiad particularly on a review of rail infrastructure eraill, yn enwedig ar adolygu seilwaith in Wales. rheilffyrdd yng Nghymru.

With part 2 of the Silk commission on the Gyda rhan 2 o’r comisiwn Silk ar y gorwel, horizon, the Party of Wales would like to see hoffai Plaid Cymru weld y pwerau a’r the powers and budget for railway gyllideb ar gyfer seilwaith rheilffyrdd yn cael infrastructure being devolved to Wales, as eu datganoli i Gymru, yn yr un modd ag y they are to Scotland. maent wedi’u datganoli i’r Alban.

While welcoming recent infrastructure Er ein bod yn croesawu datblygiadau developments such as the electrification from seilwaith diweddar megis trydaneiddio’r London to Swansea and the Valley lines, this rheilffordd o Lundain i Abertawe a does not make up for the fact that such rheilffordd y Cymoedd, nid yw hyn yn developments took place around most of gwneud iawn am y ffaith bod datblygiadau England and even from London to Glasgow o’r fath wedi digwydd ledled y rhan fwyaf o around 40 years ago. Wales has been left Loegr a hyd yn oed o Lundain i Glasgow tua behind on the platform at the whim of 40 mlynedd yn ôl. Mae Cymru wedi cael ei successive UK Governments. In the north, for gadael ar ei hôl ar y platfform ar fympwy example, we have long called for the Llywodraethau olynol y DU. Yn y gogledd, electrification of the North Coast main line er enghraifft, rydym wedi galw ers amser am from Holyhead to Chester, which is estimated drydaneiddio prif reilffordd Arfordir y at costing between £220 million and £300 Gogledd o Gaergybi i Gaer, a amcangyfrifir y million, and which was positively evaluated byddai’n costio rhwng £220 miliwn a £300 as far back as 1977. Unfortunately, this was miliwn, ac a gafodd ei werthuso’n gadarnhaol not included in the recent high-level output mor bell yn ôl â 1977. Yn anffodus, nid oedd specification for 2014 to 2019. We hope that hyn wedi’i gynnwys yn y fanyleb allbwn the new UK Secretary of State for Transport lefel uchel ddiweddar o 2014 i 2019. Rydym can be persuaded on this matter, while yn gobeithio y gellir perswadio Ysgrifennydd accepting that it would be easier if it was a Gwladol newydd y DU dros Drafnidiaeth Welsh Minister making the decision in the ynghylch y mater hwn, gan dderbyn y first place, as happens in Scotland. However, byddai’n haws pe bai un o Weinidogion even if we remain under the present Cymru yn gwneud y penderfyniad hwn yn y constraints, a Party of Wales Government lle cyntaf, fel sy’n digwydd yn yr Alban. will argue the case for our fair share of Fodd bynnag, hyd yn oed os ydym yn parhau investment. o dan y cyfyngiadau presennol, byddai Llywodraeth Plaid Cymru yn gwneud yr achos o blaid cael ein cyfran deg o fuddsoddiad.

A further point to remember is that the UK Pwynt pellach i’w gofio yw bod Llywodraeth Government still has a hand in our Wales and y DU yn parhau i fod â rhan yn ein borders rail franchise. The day-to-day masnachfraint reilffordd Cymru a’r Gororau.

98 10/10/2012 operation of the franchise is devolved, but Mae’r gwaith o weithredu’r fasnachfraint o renewing the franchise will require a joint ddydd i ddydd wedi’i ddatganoli, ond bydd signature between the Welsh and UK adnewyddu’r fasnachfraint yn gofyn am Governments. Two franchises originate in lofnod ar y cyd rhwng Llywodraeth Cymru a England and include Wales, and we believe Llywodraeth y DU. Mae dwy fasnachfraint that the UK Government controlling these yn deillio o Loegr ac yn cynnwys Cymru, a with proper consultation with the Welsh chredwn ei bod yn dderbyniol bod Government, of course, is acceptable. Llywodraeth y DU yn rheoli’r rhain gydag However, in the case of the Wales and ymgynghori go iawn â Llywodraeth Cymru. borders franchise, which mainly covers Fodd bynnag, yn achos masnachfraint Cymru Wales, the reverse should equally apply, and a’r gororau, sy’n bennaf yn cynnwys Cymru, the Welsh Government should be solely in dylai’r gwrthwyneb fod yn wir, a dylai control. Under such an understanding, the Llywodraeth Cymru yn unig fod yn rheoli’r UK Government should agree to co-operate fasnachfraint. O dan y fath ddealltwriaeth, and to respect the democratic decision of this dylai Llywodraeth y DU gytuno i Assembly when it comes to signing off gydweithredu a pharchu penderfyniad franchising arrangements. As a Welsh democrataidd y Cynulliad hwn pan ddaw i Government, the Party of Wales would also lofnodi trefniadau masnachfraint. Fel fully consult the UK Government throughout Llywodraeth Cymru, byddai Plaid Cymru the process. hefyd yn ymgynghori’n llawn â Llywodraeth y DU drwy gydol y broses.

Today’s motion covers a wide range of Mae’r cynnig heddiw yn ymdrin ag ystod important railway topics: our concerns about eang o bynciau pwysig mewn perthynas â’r the impact on Wales of the flawed franchise rheilffyrdd: ein pryderon am yr effaith ar bidding process, Plaid Cymru’s belief in a Gymru o’r broses ddiffygiol o ran ymgeisio not-for-dividend railway network in Wales ar gyfer masnachfraint, cred Plaid Cymru and our belief that the responsibility for mewn rhwydwaith rheilffyrdd di-ddifidend franchising and the budget for capital yng Nghymru a’n cred y dylai’r cyfrifoldeb expenditure on Welsh railways should lie dros fasnachfraint a’r gyllideb ar gyfer with Wales, with appropriate additional gwariant cyfalaf ar reilffyrdd Cymru orwedd allocation of Welsh block grant funds. Self- gyda Chymru, gyda dyraniad priodol government gives us a chance to break new ychwanegol o gyllid o grant bloc Cymru. ground and to reject the failures of Mae hunanlywodraeth yn rhoi cyfle inni dorri privatisation and fragmentation. Devolution, tir newydd ac i wrthod methiannau if grasped to its full extent, will allow us to preifateiddio a darnio. Bydd datganoli, os put our rail services in the hands of the ydym yn manteisio arno i’r eithaf, yn ein people of Wales, where they belong. galluogi i roi ein gwasanaethau rheilffordd yn nwylo pobl Cymru, lle maent yn perthyn.

Gwelliant 1—William Graham Amendment 1—William Graham

Ym mhwynt 1, dileu popeth ar ôl ‘Cymru’. In point 1, delete all after ‘Wales’.

Gwelliant 3—William Graham Amendment 3—William Graham

Dileu pwynt 3. Delete point 3.

Gwelliant 7—William Graham Amendment 7—William Graham

Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y Add as new point at end of motion: cynnig:

Yn croesawu ymroddiad Llywodraeth y DU i Welcomes the UK Government’s dedication Gymru drwy ei hymrwymiad i drydaneiddio to Wales through its commitment to

99 10/10/2012

Prif Lein y Great Western i Abertawe a electrifying the Great Western Main Line to thrydaneiddio rheilffyrdd Cymoedd y De. Swansea and electrifying the South Wales valley lines.

Gwelliant 8—William Graham Amendment 8—William Graham

Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y Add as new point at end of motion: cynnig:

Yn nodi pa mor bwysig yw bod Llywodraeth Notes the importance of the Welsh Cymru yn defnyddio’r dulliau sydd ar gael Government utilising the tools at its disposal iddi i wneud y mwyaf o fanteision to seize the benefits of rail electrification. trydaneiddio’r rheilffyrdd.

Gwelliant 9—William Graham Amendment 9—William Graham

Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y Add as new point at end of motion: cynnig:

Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i ymgysylltu â Calls on the Welsh Government to engage Llywodraeth y DU ynghylch y posibilrwydd o with the UK Government about potential drydaneiddio’r rheilffyrdd yng ngogledd future electrification of rail lines in north Cymru yn y dyfodol. Wales.

Byron Davies: I move amendments 1, 3, 7, 8 Byron Davies: Cynigiaf welliannau 1, 3, 7, 8 and 9 in the name of William Graham. a 9 yn enw William Graham.

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to Rwy’n croesawu’r cyfle i gyfrannu at y ddadl this debate and to put the record straight on hon ac i gywiro unrhyw gamargraff ynghylch many items from a Welsh Conservative nifer o eitemau o safbwynt y Ceidwadwyr perspective. The tone of this debate and the Cymreig. Mae tôn y ddadl hon a’r defnydd free use of the word ‘incompetence’ were rhydd o’r gair ‘blerwch’ o bosibl i’w disgwyl perhaps to be expected of an opportunist o blaid brotest fanteisgar fel Plaid Cymru. protest party such as Plaid. I am sure that we Rwy’n siŵr ein bod i gyd yn cofio ei chyfnod all remember its successful bout in llwyddiannus mewn Llywodraeth ar gefn Government on the coattails of Welsh Llafur Cymru. Roedd gan arweinydd y blaid Labour. Plaid’s leader at the time was ar y pryd reolaeth gadarn o’i friff fel y completely in control of his brief as the Gweinidog dros yr Economi a Minister for the Economy and Transport—so Thrafnidiaeth—rheolaeth mor gadarn nes bod in control that transport projects overspent prosiectau trafnidiaeth wedi gorwario’n massively and taxpayers’ money was wasted enfawr ac arian trethdalwyr wedi’i wastraffu on almost all major works across Wales. ar bron yr holl weithfeydd mawr ledled Frankly, I would suggest that that is a more Cymru. I ddweud y gwir, byddwn yn appropriate cause for the use of the word awgrymu bod hwnnw’n achos mwy priodol ‘incompetence’. ar gyfer defnyddio’r gair ‘blerwch’.

Lord Elis-Thomas: Will the Member give Yr Arglwydd Elis-Thomas: A wnaiff yr way? Aelod ildio?

Byron Davies: No, I have a lot to say. In Byron Davies: Na, mae gen i lawer i’w fact, in Government, the party’s flagship ddweud. Yn wir, mewn Llywodraeth, prif policy was to introduce an airline from bolisi’r blaid oedd cyflwyno cyswllt awyr o Cardiff to Anglesey, which does no more Gaerdydd i Ynys Môn, sy’n gwneud dim than serve the political classes— mwy na gwasanaethu’r dosbarth [Interruption.] The previous Government gwleidyddol—[Torri ar draws.] Y

100 10/10/2012 then, if you like— Llywodraeth flaenorol, os mynnwch, oedd—

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. I Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Rwy’n atgoffa remind Members that comments from a Aelodau na fydd sylwadau gan Aelodau o’u sedentary position will not be recorded, and seddi yn cael eu cofnodi, ac ni ddylent gael they should not be answered. eu hateb.

Lord Elis-Thomas: On a point of order— Yr Arglwydd Elis-Thomas: Ar bwynt o drefn—

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. No, Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Na, nid oes there is no point of order. I will take a point unrhyw bwynt o drefn. Byddaf yn cymryd of order at the end of the debate if you still pwynt o drefn ar ddiwedd y ddadl os ydych wish to press this. yn dal yn awyddus i bwyso’r mater.

Byron Davies: Amendments 1 and 3 speak Byron Davies: Mae gwelliannau 1 a 3 yn for themselves. Through millions of pounds siarad drostynt eu hunain. Trwy filiynau o of investment in the railways in Wales, the bunnoedd o fuddsoddiad yn y rheilffyrdd yng UK Government has proven that it has the Nghymru, mae Llywodraeth y DU wedi profi Welsh economy and the Welsh people at bod economi Cymru a phobl Cymru yn heart. The Conservative-led UK Government, greiddiol iddi. Mae Llywodraeth y DU o dan through electrification, as highlighted in arweiniad y Ceidwadwyr, drwy drydaneiddio, amendments 7 and 8, is investing in Wales’s fel yr amlygwyd yng ngwelliannau 7 ac 8, yn future. Rather than endlessly debating and buddsoddi yn nyfodol Cymru. Yn hytrach na whining about further powers in this dadlau a swnian yn ddiddiwedd am bwerau Chamber, this Government should embrace pellach yn y Siambr hon, dylai’r Llywodraeth that investment and maximise the potential. hon gofleidio’r buddsoddiad hwnnw a Amendment 9 puts squarely in sight the next gwneud y gorau o’r potensial. Mae gwelliant target for all parties in this Chamber to 9 yn canolbwyntio ar y targed nesaf i’r holl achieve. We must engage with the UK bleidiau yn y Siambr hon ei gyflawni. Mae’n Government and push the potential future rhaid inni ymgysylltu â Llywodraeth y DU a electrification of rail lines in north Wales. We gwthio trydaneiddio posibl rheilffyrdd yng are currently a country of two halves and the ngogledd Cymru yn y dyfodol. Ar hyn o Welsh nationalists should be more concerned bryd, rydym yn wlad o ddau hanner a dylai’r with building a connected nation, as the cenedlaetholwyr Cymreig ymwneud yn fwy Welsh Conservatives are, than squabbling ag adeiladu cenedl gysylltiedig, fel y mae’r about the West Coast main line franchise and Ceidwadwyr Cymreig am ei wneud, na ffraeo asking for more powers. am fasnachfraint prif reilffordd Arfordir y Gorllewin a gofyn am fwy o bwerau.

With the Wales and borders franchise Gyda masnachfraint Cymru a’r gororau yn opening up soon, we have great potential to agor cyn bo hir, mae gennym botensial mawr secure future investment in our railways and i sicrhau buddsoddiad yn nyfodol ein rolling stock. I am extremely concerned rheilffyrdd a’n cerbydau tren. Rwy’n about any attempt to create a public sector- bryderus iawn am unrhyw ymgais i greu run rail service or, indeed, a not-for-profit gwasanaeth rheilffordd sy’n cael ei redeg gan organisation and about how much capital it y sector cyhoeddus neu, yn wir, gan sefydliad would be able to realise. I would welcome di-elw ac am faint o gyfalaf y byddai’n gallu further discussion and exploration, but I ei ryddhau. Byddwn yn croesawu trafodaeth could not support any motion that talked ac archwilio pellach, ond ni allwn gefnogi about ensuring a not-for-profit model. It is far unrhyw gynnig sy’n sôn am sicrhau model too prescriptive and there is not enough di-elw. Mae’n llawer rhy rhagnodol ac nid research, detail or viable modelling on that oes digon o ymchwil, manylion neu fodelu option, I am afraid. hyfyw o ran y dewis hwnnw, mae arnaf ofn.

101 10/10/2012

In a nutshell, the Welsh Conservatives will Yn gryno, bydd y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig yn support all the amendments tabled. Unless cefnogi’r holl welliannau a gyflwynwyd. Oni amendment 1 is carried, we will vote against bai bod gwelliant 1 yn cael ei dderbyn, the motion. We must get on with the job of byddwn yn pleidleisio yn erbyn y cynnig. connecting Wales through a public transport Rhaid inni fwrw ymlaen â’r gwaith o gysylltu network that is fit for the twenty-first century Cymru drwy rwydwaith trafnidiaeth and not become bogged down with focusing gyhoeddus sy’n addas ar gyfer yr unfed on additional powers. Let us change the tune: ganrif ar hugain a pheidio â boddi drwy we need partnership for the future of Wales ganolbwyntio ar bwerau ychwanegol. and the ultimate success of its transport Gadewch i ni newid y dôn: mae angen system. partneriaeth arnom ar gyfer dyfodol Cymru a llwyddiant eithaf ei system drafnidiaeth.

4.45 p.m.

Gwelliant 4—Aled Roberts Amendment 4—Aled Roberts

Dileu 3c) a rhoi yn ei le ‘archwilio’r holl Delete 3c) and replace with ‘explore all the ddewisiadau ar gyfer masnachfraint Cymru options for the Wales and Borders franchise a’r Gororau gan gynnwys model busnes di- including a potential not-for-profit business elw posibl’. model’.

Gwelliant 6—Aled Roberts Amendment 6—Aled Roberts

Ychwanegu is-bwynt newydd ar ddiwedd Add new sub point at end of point 3): pwynt 3):

Yn gweithio gyda Llywodraeth y DU i work with the UK Government to secure sicrhau bod prif reilffordd gogledd Cymru yn electrification of the North Wales mainline by cael ei thrydaneiddio erbyn diwedd Cyfnod the end of Control Period 6. Rheoli 6.

Gwelliant 10—Aled Roberts Amendment 10—Aled Roberts

Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y Add new point at the end of motion: cynnig:

Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i archwilio’r Calls on the Welsh government to investigate posibilrwydd o ddefnyddio’r broses dendro i using the tender process to secure investment sicrhau buddsoddiad yn ansawdd cerbydau in the quality of rolling stock and a’r seilwaith. infrastructure.

Gwelliant 11—Aled Roberts Amendment 11—Aled Roberts

Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y Add new point at the end of the motion: cynnig:

Yn credu bod Prif Lein Arfordir y Gorllewin Believes the West Coast Main Line and the a’r Lein HS2 newydd yn hanfodol ar gyfer new HS2 Line are vital in improving services gwella gwasanaethau i ranbarth gogledd to the North Wales region and calls on the Cymru ac yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i Welsh Government to work with the UK weithio gyda Llywodraeth y DU i sicrhau bod Government to ensure that services to North gwasanaethau i ogledd Cymru yn cael eu Wales are strengthened in the future. hatgyfnerthu yn y dyfodol.

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Eluned Parrott: I move amendments 4, 6, Eluned Parrott: Cynigiaf welliannau 4, 6, 10 and 11 in the name of Aled Roberts. 10 ac 11 yn enw Aled Roberts.

I thank Plaid Cymru for bringing this debate Diolch i Blaid Cymru am gyflwyno’r ddadl forward today. We have debated the hon heddiw. Rydym wedi trafod importance of the rail infrastructure on many pwysigrwydd y seilwaith rheilffyrdd ar sawl occasions in the Chamber, but with regard to achlysur yn y Siambr, ond o safbwynt profiad the passengers’ experience, it is the train y teithwyr, y cwmnïau trenau sy’n fwy operating companies that are more obviously amlwg yn ei chanol hi wrth ddarparu at the coal face in delivering services. gwasanaethau. Felly, croesawaf y cyfle hwn i Therefore, I welcome this opportunity to drafod y rhan hon o’r diwydiant rheilffyrdd. debate this part of the rail industry.

The piecemeal carve-up of the UK’s railway Nid yw rhaniad tameidiog diwydiant industry is not what I would have chosen rheilffyrdd y DU yn rhywbeth y byddwn either, but that is what we have, and that is wedi’i ddewis ychwaith, ond dyna’r hyn sydd what we have to work with. It has left us with gennym, a dyna’r hyn y mae’n rhaid inni a complex series of interrelationships weithio gydag ef. Mae wedi ein gadael â between infrastructure and operations, chyfres gymhleth o gydberthynas rhwng between different operators using common seilwaith a gweithrediadau, rhwng gwahanol facilities, and between devolved nations and weithredwyr yn defnyddio cyfleusterau Westminster. For that reason, devolving all cyffredin, a rhwng gwledydd datganoledig a rail services operating in Wales is not an easy San Steffan. Am y rheswm hwnnw, nid yw and clean-cut option—that and the fact that datganoli’r holl wasanaethau rheilffordd sy’n the Wales and borders services mentioned in gweithredu yng Nghymru yn opsiwn hawdd a the motion today spend as much time in syml—hynny a’r ffaith bod gwasanaethau England as they do in Wales, serving Cymru a’r gororau y sonnir amdanynt yn y Hereford, Shrewsbury and Crewe. While it is cynnig heddiw yn treulio’r un faint o amser absolutely right that the Welsh Government yn Lloegr ag y maent yng Nghymru, gan has a significant role in developing that wasanaethu Henffordd, yr Amwythig a franchise—and I would welcome the Crewe. Er ei bod yn hollol iawn fod gan Minister’s comments on the nature of that Lywodraeth Cymru rôl sylweddol o ran role and on how he sees that developing as datblygu’r fasnachfraint honno—a byddwn the franchise is agreed—it is also right that yn croesawu sylwadau’r Gweinidog ar natur the Government that represents the English y rhan honno a sut y mae’n gweld hynny’n residents served by that line also has a voice datblygu wrth ddod i gytundeb ar y and a role to play. fasnachfraint—mae hefyd yn iawn bod y Llywodraeth sy’n cynrychioli trigolion Lloegr sy’n cael eu gwasanaethau gan y rheilffordd honno hefyd â llais a rhan i’w chwarae.

I would not say that the relationship between Ni fyddwn yn dweud na ddylid adolygu’r the Welsh Government and Westminster berthynas rhwng Llywodraeth Cymru a San should not be reviewed, but I am not Steffan, ond nid wyf yn argyhoeddedig y convinced that the franchise should be dylid datganoli’r fasnachfraint yn llwyr. Nid entirely devolved. I am also not convinced wyf yn argyhoeddedig ychwaith bod that full devolution of rail infrastructure, datganoli seilwaith pwerau a chyllidebau powers and budgets is necessarily in the best rheilffyrdd yn llawn o anghenraid er budd interests of Wales. Could a Barnett gorau Cymru. A allai swm canlyniadol consequential have delivered electrification? Barnett fod wedi cyflawni trydaneiddio? Hyd Even if it could, what would the point be if it yn oed os y gallai fod wedi, beth fyddai’r did not connect to an electrified line on the pwynt os na fydd yn cysylltu â rheilffordd other side of the border? You will know that I wedi’i thrydaneiddio ochr arall y ffin? am a committed supporter of devolution, but Byddwch yn gwybod fy mod yn gefnogwr

103 10/10/2012

I would not want to see Wales’s brwd dros ddatganoli, ond ni fyddwn am constitutional position decided piece by weld sefyllfa gyfansoddiadol Cymru yn cael piece, like so many slices of salami. These ei phenderfynu fesul darn, fel sleisys o are issues that I would like to see discussed in salami. Mae’r rhain yn faterion yr hoffwn eu the round, perhaps through the Silk gweld yn cael eu trafod yn eu cyfanrwydd, commission or by other means, but not on a efallai drwy gomisiwn Silk neu drwy ddulliau one-by-one basis like this. eraill, ond nid ar sail un fesul un fel hyn.

With regard to our amendment 4, I would O ran ein gwelliant 4, byddwn yn croesawu welcome the emergence of more not-for- dyfodiad mwy o gwmnïau di-elw yn ein profit companies in our transport services, gwasanaethau trafnidiaeth, ond ni fyddwn am but I would not wish to exclude the gau allan y posibilrwydd y gallai cwmni er- possibility that a for-profit company could do elw wneud gwaith da a bod o fudd gorau i a good job and be in the best interest of deithwyr. Er bod rhesymeg amlwg i’r syniad passengers. While there is an apparent logic y byddai cwmni di-elw, yn ôl ei natur, yn to the idea that a not-for-profit company buddsoddi mwy mewn gwasanaethau gan nad would, by its very nature, invest more in yw’n talu cyfranddalwyr, yn ymarferol, services because it does not pay shareholders, efallai nad dyna fydd yr achos. Pe gallai in practice, that may not work out to be the cwmni er-elw ddarparu gwasanaeth mwy case. If a for-profit company were able to effeithlon, effeithiol a deniadol i deithwyr, deliver a more efficient, effective and gallai hanner elw cwmni er-elw sy’n attractive service to passengers, half the buddsoddi mewn gwasanaethau fod yn fwy profits of a for-profit company investing in gwerthfawr yn nhermau arian parod na holl services could work out be more valuable in elw model di-elw llai effeithiol. Rhaid inni cash terms than all of the profits of a less hefyd gydnabod bod y rhwystrau i gyrraedd y efficient not-for-profit model. We also have farchnad drafnidiaeth yn uchel iawn. Ble to recognise that the barriers to entry into the fyddai cwmni di-elw newydd yn cael yr arian transport market are extremely high. Where i brydlesu trenau? Ble y byddent yn cael eu would a new not-for-profit company get the staff arbenigol? Mae’r rhain yn faterion money to lease trains? Where would they get anodd; mae rheswm pam bod newydd- their specialist staff? These are difficult ddyfodiaid i’r diwydiant trafnidiaeth yn brin issues; there is a reason why new entrants to iawn. Rwy’n pwysleisio nad wyf yn erbyn y the transport industry are very rare. I syniad mewn egwyddor, a byddwn yn emphasise that I am not against the idea in croesawu’r cyfle i ddatblygu modelau di-elw principle, and I would welcome the yn y diwydiant hwn, ond, yn fy marn i, mae’n opportunity to develop not-for-profit models rhaid i brofiad teithwyr a gwerth am arian in this industry, but, in my view, it is the trethdalwyr gael blaenoriaeth. Mae’n fater o passengers’ experience and value for bragmatiaeth dros ddelfrydiaeth, mae arnaf taxpayers’ money that must take precedence. ofn. Dylem gadw ein dewisiadau yn agored. It is pragmatism over idealism, I am afraid. Dyna pam yr wyf wedi cyflwyno gwelliant 4, We should keep our options open. That is neu byddaf fel arall yn cefnogi gwelliant y why I have put forward amendment 4, or Llywodraeth yn yr achos hwn. would alternatively support the Government’s amendment in this instance.

I will not pretend that the current franchise Nid wyf am esgus bod y trefniadau arrangements are perfect; clearly, they are masnachfraint presennol yn berffaith; yn not. It is vital for Welsh passengers that the amlwg, nid ydynt yn berffaith. Mae’n Welsh Government has a strong involvement hanfodol i deithwyr Cymru bod gan in all of the franchises that affect Welsh Lywodraeth Cymru ran gref ym mhob passengers, including those that serve Wales masnachfraint sy’n effeithio ar deithwyr and England. In opening this debate, the Cymru, gan gynnwys y rhai sy’n leader of Plaid Cymru regretted the gwasanaethu Cymru a Lloegr. Wrth agor y fragmentation of the rail industry, and I ddadl hon, roedd arweinydd Plaid Cymru yn agree—I regret it very much—but I do not gresynu at natur ddarniog y diwydiant

104 10/10/2012 think that you will fix it by fragmenting it rheilffyrdd, ac rwy’n cytuno—rwy’n gresynu further. ato yn fawr iawn—ond nid wyf yn credu y byddwch yn ei drwsio drwy ei rannu ymhellach.

Gwelliant 5—Jane Hutt Amendment 5—Jane Hutt

Yn is-bwynt 3c), dileu ‘sicrhau bod model di- In sub-point 3c), delete ‘ensure’ and replace elw yn cael ei greu’ a rhoi yn ei le with ‘explore’. ‘archwilio’r posibilrwydd o greu model di- elw’.

The Minister for Local Government and Y Gweinidog Llywodraeth Leol a Communities (Carl Sargeant): I move Chymunedau (Carl Sargeant): Cynigiaf amendment 5 in the name of Jane Hutt. welliant 5 yn enw Jane Hutt.

Llyr Huws Gruffydd: This debate takes Llyr Huws Gruffydd: Mae’r ddadl hon yn place, as we have already heard, against a digwydd, fel rydym wedi clywed eisoes, yn backdrop of serious concerns about the West erbyn cefndir o bryderon difrifol ynghylch Coast franchise and it is, therefore, timely. masnachfraint Arfordir y Gorllewin ac felly, However, you will be aware that Plaid Cymru mae’n amserol. Fodd bynnag, byddwch yn has supported a not-for-dividend model for ymwybodol bod Plaid Cymru wedi cefnogi Welsh rail services since before the latest model di-ddifidend ar gyfer gwasanaethau controversy broke out, and we note that the rheilffyrdd Cymru ers cyn iddo ddod yn Welsh Government has said that it is bwnc dadleuol, a nodwn fod Llywodraeth interested in listening to our case. Cymru wedi dweud bod ganddi ddiddordeb mewn gwrando ar ein hachos.

From the outset, regardless of some of the O’r cychwyn cyntaf, er gwaethaf rhai o’r deluded comments from elsewhere in the sylwadau camarweiniol gan eraill yn y Chamber, we have to be clear that we are not Siambr, mae’n rhaid inni fod yn glir nad critical of any of the companies involved in ydym yn feirniadol o unrhyw un o’r cwmnïau rail under the current privatised system. sy’n ymwneud â’r rheilffyrdd o dan y system When we held the transport portfolio bresennol sydd wedi’i phreifateiddio. Pan previously, we worked closely with Arriva oeddem ni’n gyfrifol am y portffolio Trains Wales and others. However, we have a trafnidiaeth yn flaenorol, roeddem yn problem with the franchising arrangements. gweithio’n agos gyda Threnau Arriva Cymru The Arriva franchise was poorly awarded in ac eraill. Fodd bynnag, mae gennym broblem 2003, which led to a decade of overcrowding. gyda’r trefniadau masnachfraint. Cafodd It meant that the Welsh Government was masnachfraint Arriva ei dyfarnu’n wael yn expected to find money from public service 2003, a arweiniodd at ddegawd o orlenwi. budgets to top up the existing subsidy—about Rodd yn golygu bod disgwyl i Lywodraeth £30 million a year on top of what was Cymru ddod o hyd i arian o gyllidebau transferred in the block grant when franchise gwasanaethau cyhoeddus i ychwanegu at y management was devolved in 2006. cymhorthdal presennol—tua £30 miliwn y flwyddyn ar ben yr hyn a drosglwyddwyd yn y grant bloc pan gafodd y fasnachfraint ei datganoli yn 2006.

The Wales and borders franchise has been Mae masnachfraint Cymru a’r gororau wedi generating profits on the back of the creu elw ar gefn y cymorthdaliadau sydd ar subsidies that are in place, and Plaid Cymru waith, ac mae Plaid Cymru yn credu’n gryf y strongly believes that any such future profits dylai unrhyw elw o’r fath yn y dyfodol gael should be reinvested in services in order to ei ailfuddsoddi mewn gwasanaethau er mwyn get the best value for money for the taxpayer. cael y gwerth gorau am arian i’r trethdalwr.

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As a rough guide, we know that, in recent Fel canllaw bras, rydym yn gwybod, yn ystod years, the Welsh franchise has generated £13 y blynyddoedd diwethaf, bod masnachfraint million per year in dividends for Cymru wedi cynhyrchu £13 miliwn y shareholders. This is a revenue stream that flwyddyn mewn difidendau i gyfranddalwyr. could fund five new daily services, if we used Dyma lif refeniw a allai ariannu pum the current average costs. Without these gwasanaeth dyddiol newydd, os oeddem yn profits being reinvested, there could be defnyddio’r costau cyfartalog presennol. Heb pressure on services at some point due to ailfuddsoddi’r elw hwn, gallai fod pwysau ar Welsh Government budgets being cut. wasanaethau o ganlyniad i dorri cyllidebau Llywodraeth Cymru.

Commenting on the strength of a not-for- Wrth sôn am gryfder model di-ddifidend, dividend model, Professor Stuart Cole has dywedodd yr Athro Stuart Cole said that

‘it has the potential to keep the profits that mae ganddo’r potensial i gadw’r elw a wneir are made on the business, and any other ar y busnes, ac unrhyw wargedion eraill yng surpluses within Wales and within the Nghymru ac o fewn y fasnachfraint railway franchise’. rheilffyrdd.

He went on to say that Yna dywedodd

‘the particular problem we had with the y broblem benodol a gawsom gyda Welsh franchise was that it was designed for masnachfraint Cymru oedd ei bod wedi’i a low level of demand, and that low level of chynllunio ar gyfer lefel isel o alw, ac nid demand has not, in fact, continued—it has yw’r lefel isel honno o alw, mewn grown substantially. The Welsh government gwirionedd, wedi parhau—mae wedi tyfu’n had to acquire more trains, through Arriva, sylweddol. Roedd yn rhaid i Lywodraeth and all that builds up the cost.’ Cymru gael mwy o drenau, drwy Arriva, ac mae hynny i gyd yn ychwanegu at y gost.

As Leanne Wood said in her opening Fel y dywedodd Leanne Wood yn ei remarks, a not-for-dividend model could sylwadau agoriadol, gallai model di- encompass several forms. Network Rail and ddifidend gwmpasu sawl ffurf. Cyfeiriwyd at Glas Cymru have been mentioned as Network Rail a Glas Cymru fel enghreifftiau examples of independent companies that o gwmnïau annibynnol sydd â rôl polisi have a strategic policy role in providing a strategol wrth ddarparu gwasanaeth lle mae service where private competition is cystadleuaeth breifat yn amhriodol. Rydym inappropriate. We have also heard mention of hefyd wedi clywed sôn am ffurfio cwmni a co-operative being formed, and officials cydweithredol, a dylai swyddogion edrych i should look into this, as it would be likely to mewn i hyn, gan y byddai’n debygol o gael have strong public support in Wales. The cefnogaeth gref gan y cyhoedd yng prospect of public ownership also needs to be Nghymru. Mae hefyd angen archwilio’r explored. We know that an emergency posibilrwydd o berchnogaeth gyhoeddus. provision exists for rail franchises to be Rydym yn gwybod bod darpariaeth frys yn brought under public ownership if and when bodoli er mwyn dwyn masnachfreintiau market failure occurs— rheilffyrdd o dan berchnogaeth gyhoeddus os a phan y bydd methiant yn y farchnad yn digwydd—

Mark Isherwood: Will you give way? Mark Isherwood: A wnewch chi ildio?

Llyr Huws Gruffydd: No, I am sorry; I need Llyr Huws Gruffydd: Na, mae’n flin to carry on. gennyf; mae angen i mi barhau.

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In Byron Davies’s rather discombobulated Yng nghyfraniad eithaf dryslyd Byron contribution, he derided a lack of research— Davies, mae’n gwatwar diffyg gwaith ’discombobulated’ is a word that I have ymchwil—y gair yw ‘discombobulated’ yn always wanted to use in the Chamber, so I Saesneg, sy’n air yr wyf bob amser wedi thank him for that opportunity. [Laughter.] eisiau ei ddefnyddio yn y Siambr, felly diolch Maybe he should do some research of his iddo am y cyfle hwnnw. [Chwerthin.] Efallai own, because there is already public y dylai wneud rhywfaint o waith ymchwil ei ownership of the East Coast mainline, where hun, oherwydd mae rheilffordd yr East Coast a new arm’s-length Government-owned eisoes o dan berchenogaeth gyhoeddus, lle company called Directly Operated Railways cafodd cwmni newydd hyd braich sy’n eiddo was established in 2009 as a result of i Lywodraeth o’r enw Directly Operated National Express breaking its contractual Railways ei sefydlu yn 2009 o ganlyniad i obligations. Directly Operated Railways has National Express yn torri ei rwymedigaethau performed strongly and all of its profits have cytundebol. Mae Directly Operated Railways been reinvested in the East Coast network. It wedi perfformio’n gryf ac mae ei holl elw has kept all of the staff from National wedi cael ei ailfuddsoddi yn rhwydwaith yr Express and has, in fact, created 80 additional East Coast. Mae wedi cadw ei holl staff o full-time jobs from some of its profits. It is National Express ac, yn wir, mae wedi creu still generating a profit, notwithstanding the 80 o swyddi ychwanegol llawn amser yn sgîl subsidy from which all train operating ei elw. Mae’n dal i gynhyrchu elw, er companies, public or private, benefit. gwaetha’r cymhorthdal y mae pob cwmni Directly Operated Railways has delivered the trên, cyhoeddus neu breifat, yn cael budd highest customer satisfaction rating of the ohono. Mae Directly Operated Railways bob East Coast franchise since records began, and amser wedi sicrhau cyfraddau uchaf o ran it has also restored the express London to bodlonrwydd cwsmeriaid ym masnachfraint Edinburgh service, which runs four trains yr East Coast ers i gofnodion ddechrau, ac every day. Here we have an example of mae hefyd wedi adfer gwasanaeth cyflym public ownership that is good enough to link Llundain i Gaeredin, sy’n rhedeg pedair trên up two of western Europe’s most dynamic bob dydd. Yma mae gennym enghraifft o capital cities. All things considered, Directly berchnogaeth gyhoeddus sy’n ddigon da i Operated Railways seems to be a well- gysylltu dwy o brifddinasoedd mwyaf managed and well-run company—nothing deinamig gorllewin Ewrop. O ystyried like the old models of British Rail, by the popeth, ymddengys bod Directly Operated way. This is a model that should be explored Railways yn gwmni sy’n cael ei reoli a’i in Wales, along with the other possible redeg yn dda—dim byd tebyg i hen fodelau options that have been mentioned. British Rail, gyda llaw. Dyma fodel y dylid archwilio iddo ymhellach yng Nghymru, ynghyd â’r opsiynau posibl eraill sydd wedi cael eu crybwyll.

Above all, Plaid Cymru wants the not-for- Yn anad dim, mae Plaid Cymru am i’r dividend aspect of future services to be agwedd ddi-ddifidend ar wasanaethau yn y ensured through this motion, and we hope dyfodol gael ei sicrhau drwy’r cynnig hwn, that this can be reaffirmed today. ac rydym yn gobeithio y gellir ailddatgan hyn heddiw.

Vaughan Gething: I welcome the Vaughan Gething: Croesawaf y cyfle i opportunity to speak today, especially as we siarad heddiw, yn enwedig oherwydd y had the third cross-party rail group meeting cawsom drydydd cyfarfod y grŵp rheilffyrdd this morning. Since our second meeting in trawsbleidiol y bore yma. Ers ein hail June, we have had the welcome decision to gyfarfod ym mis Mehefin, rydym wedi cael y electrify the south Wales Valleys lines and to penderfyniad a groesewir i drydaneiddio reinstate the plan to electrify the main line to rheilffyrdd y Cymoedd ac adfer y cynllun i Swansea. I want to recognise the role that drydaneiddio’r brif reilffordd i Abertawe. MPs, stakeholders outside this place and Rwyf am gydnabod y rôl y mae Aelodau

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Members across the Chamber played in Seneddol, rhanddeiliaid y tu allan i’r lle hwn lobbying for that decision, as well as the ac Aelodau ar draws y Siambr wedi’i leadership of the Minister for transport, Carl chwarae yn lobïo dros y penderfyniad Sargeant, in putting together a successful hwnnw, yn ogystal ag arweiniad y business case. Gweinidog trafnidiaeth, Carl Sargeant, wrth lunio achos busnes llwyddiannus.

Members know of my own interest in Mae Aelodau yn gwybod am fy niddordeb transport generally and in the next Wales and mewn trafnidiaeth yn gyffredinol ac ym borders franchise in particular. I have masnachfraint nesaf Cymru a’r gororau yn previously raised the prospect of a business benodol. Rwyf wedi sôn yn flaenorol am y model for the next franchise that would be posibilrwydd o fodel busnes ar gyfer y not for dividend, much like the Glas Cymru fasnachfraint nesaf na fyddai’n rhoi difidend, model. That is hardly surprising, given that I yn debyg iawn i fodel Glas Cymru. Prin fod am a Labour and Co-operative Assembly hynny’n syndod, o ystyried fy mod yn Aelod Member, and it is of course a pledge from the Cynulliad Llafur a’r Blaid Gydweithredol, ac Welsh Labour manifesto for the 2011 wrth gwrs, mae’n addewid ym maniffesto elections. I welcome Plaid’s support for that Llafur Cymru ar gyfer etholiadau 2011. aim, but I understand why the Minister Croesawaf gefnogaeth Plaid Cymru i’r nod cannot commit himself to one business form hwnnw, ond rwy’n deall pam na all y over another, given his duty not to prejudge Gweinidog ymrwymo i un ffurf busnes dros the shape of the next franchise. I believe that un arall, o ystyried ei ddyletswydd i beidio â it is for other Members, including Labour and rhagfarnu’r fasnachfraint nesaf. Rwy’n credu Co-operative Members, to continue to make mai cyfrifoldeb yr Aelodau eraill, gan the case for that business model and to add to gynnwys Aelodau Llafur a’r Blaid the debate with proposals for how a not-for- Gydweithredol, yw parhau i wneud yr achos dividend franchise could operate. dros y model busnes hwnnw ac i ychwanegu at y ddadl gyda chynigion ar gyfer sut y gallai masnachfraint ddi-ddifidend weithredu.

I recognise some of the comments made in Rwy’n cydnabod rhai o’r sylwadau a wnaed the Chamber today and at other times about yn y Siambr heddiw ac ar adegau eraill not simply having idea about the business ynghylch nid yn unig cael syniad am y model model itself, but being able to deliver it. I am busnes ei hun, ond ynghylch y gallu i’w already working with the Co-operative Party gyflawni. Rwyf eisoes yn gweithio gyda’r and with stakeholders in the rail industry to Blaid Gydweithredol a rhanddeiliaid yn y produce a further report to take the debate diwydiant rheilffyrdd i lunio adroddiad forward, to turn that good idea on paper into pellach i fwrw’r ddadl yn ei blaen, i droi’r something credible that can involve people in syniad da hwnnw ar bapur yn rhywbeth the rail industry with the credibility to make credadwy a all gynnwys pobl yn y diwydiant it work in practice. I hope to have more to rheilffyrdd gyda’r hygrededd i wneud iddo say on that in some detail before the end of weithio yn ymarferol. Rwy’n gobeithio cael this year. dweud mwy am hynny yn fanwl cyn diwedd eleni.

We have seen the Welsh Government use its Rydym wedi gweld Llywodraeth Cymru yn powers in the past to fund specific rail defnyddio ei phwerau yn y gorffennol i infrastructure investments. Two obvious ariannu buddsoddiadau seilwaith rheilffyrdd examples are the Vale of Glamorgan line—a penodol. Dwy enghraifft amlwg yw new line that opened in 2005—and the rheilffordd Bro Morgannwg—rheilffordd reopening of the Ebbw Vale line in 2007. newydd a agorwyd yn 2005—ac ailagor However, we know that rail infrastructure rheilffordd Glynebwy yn 2007. Fodd bynnag, investment is not a devolved matter. Welsh gwyddom nad yw buddsoddiad seilwaith Labour has been clear for a number of years rheilffyrdd yn fater sydd wedi’i ddatganoli. that the Welsh Government should have a Mae Llafur Cymru wedi bod yn glir ers nifer

108 10/10/2012 greater say in rail decisions that affect Wales. o flynyddoedd y dylai Llywodraeth Cymru Certainly, I would like to see us become the gael mwy o lais mewn penderfyniadau lead decision-making body on the Wales and rheilffordd sy’n effeithio ar Gymru. Yn sicr, borders franchise, but I am very clear that full hoffwn ein gweld yn dod yn brif gorff funding must go with any further devolution. gwneud penderfyniadau ar fasnachfraint Cymru a’r gororau, ond rwy’n glir iawn bod rhaid i gyllid llawn fynd law yn llaw ag unrhyw ddatganoli pellach.

Welsh Labour has also been very clear that Mae Llafur Cymru hefyd wedi bod yn glir we want Network Rail to be much more iawn ein bod am i Network Rail fod yn accountable to the Welsh Government for its llawer mwy atebol i Lywodraeth Cymru am work in Wales. I would be interested to hear ei waith yng Nghymru. Byddai gennyf from the Minister later in the debate whether ddiddordeb clywed gan y Gweinidog yn there has been a shift in attitude or emphasis ddiweddarach yn y ddadl a fu newid mewn from the new Secretary of State for Transport agwedd neu bwyslais gan yr Ysgrifennydd on future options for the Wales and borders Gwladol newydd dros Drafnidiaeth ar franchise. Regardless of party, we should all opsiynau yn y dyfodol ar gyfer masnachfraint recognise that sweeping out yet another team Cymru a’r gororau. Beth bynnag fo’ch plaid, of transport Ministers at Westminster is not dylai pob un ohonom gydnabod nad yw cael good for the rail industry or for the travelling gwared ar dîm arall o Weinidogion public. We need greater certainty, a sense of trafnidiaeth yn San Steffan yn dda i’r vision and a clear sense of direction—the diwydiant rheilffyrdd neu’r cyhoedd sy’n farce around the West Coast main line teithio. Mae angen mwy o sicrwydd arnom, certainly does not help that. ymdeimlad o weledigaeth ac ymdeimlad clir o gyfeiriad—yn sicr nid yw’r ffars sy’n gysylltiedig â rheilffordd Arfordir y Gorllewin o gymorth yn hynny o beth.

The structure of rail decision making and the Nid y strwythur gwneud penderfyniadau ar business model cannot be our only concerns. reilffyrdd a’r model busnes yw ein hunig We need a much greater focus in the next bryderon. Mae angen inni ganolbwyntio franchise on the passengers. We need a llawer mwy ar y teithiwyr yn y fasnachfraint franchise agreement that cries ‘improvement’ nesaf. Mae angen cytundeb masnachfraint for the passenger, and not something that is arnom sy’n gallw am ‘welliant’ i deithwyr, ac simply a standstill franchise. We should not nid rhywbeth sy’n fasnachfraint sy’n aros yn be left in a position where capacity and ei hunfan. Ni ddylem gael ein gadael mewn comfort issues on trains are left unaddressed sefyllfa lle na ymdrinnir â materion capasiti a for the duration of a franchise, without an chyfforddusrwydd ar drenau dros gyfnod inclination on the part of the operator to masnachfraint, heb awydd ar ran y address those concerns or the muscle for the gweithredwr i fynd i’r afael â’r pryderon Government to require action to be taken. We hynny neu roi’r grym i’r Llywodraeth sicrhau all know, from our postbags and from bod camau yn cael eu cymryd. Rydym i gyd experience, of the shockingly poor quality of yn gwybod, o’n bagiau post a’n profiad, o’r some of the rolling stock serving our ansawdd arswydus o wael rhai o’r cerbydau communities at present. trên sy’n gwasanaethu ein cymunedau ar hyn o bryd.

We should also ensure that, in our continuing Dylem hefyd sicrhau, yn ein dadl barhaus ar debate over the next franchise, we talk y fasnachfraint nesaf, ein bod yn siarad o seriously about waiting facilities for ddifrif am gyfleusterau aros i deithwyr. passengers. We know that they are not Rydym yn gwybod nad ydynt bob amser yn always accessible, and they are certainly not hygyrch, ac yn sicr nid ydynt yn gyfforddus, always comfortable, especially given our yn enwedig o ystyried ein hinsawdd. climate.

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We certainly need to make sure that the next Yn sicr mae angen inni wneud yn siŵr bod franchise operator is an enabler of integrated gweithredwr nesaf y fasnachfraint yn transport, and that especially includes the bus alluogwr trafnidiaeth integredig, a bod hynny network. That is a concern in all parts of yn arbennig yn cynnwys y rhwydwaith Wales, and it has been brought into much bysiau. Mae hynny’n peri pryder ym mhob sharper focus with the debate on city regions. rhan o Gymru, ac mae wedi cael ffocws We know that city regions cannot be as llawer cliriach gyda’r ddadl ar ddinas- successful as they should be if we get the ranbarthau. Rydym yn gwybod na all dinas- transport side wrong. ranbarthau fod mor llwyddiannus ag y dylent os bydd yr ochr cludiant yn anghywir.

I expect that we will agree on a form of Rwy’n disgwyl y byddwn yn cytuno ar ffurf words today, but over the coming months, we o eiriad heddiw, ond dros y misoedd nesaf, will need to do much more to help to shape bydd angen inni wneud llawer mwy i helpu i the next franchise to serve our interests. That lunio’r fasnachfraint nesaf i wasanaethu ein will require us to speak not only to people in buddiannau. Mae hynny’n gofyn i ni siarad the Government here in Wales, but also to nid yn unig â phobl yn y Llywodraeth yma colleagues in Westminster. I certainly want to yng Nghymru, ond hefyd â chydweithwyr yn see a franchise that reinvests an operating San Steffan. Rwy’n sicr fy mod am weld profit in a network that generally serves the masnachfraint sy’n ailfuddsoddi elw interests of business and the travelling public. gweithredol mewn rhwydwaith sy’n gyffredinol yn gwasanaethu buddiannau busnes a’r cyhoedd sy’n teithio.

5.00 p.m.

Alun Ffred Jones: Rwyf am siarad am Alun Ffred Jones: I will speak to point 3b) bwynt 3b) o’r cynnig. Hwn yw’r rhan y of the motion. That is the part that the Tories mae’r Torïaid am ei dileu, sy’n dangos cyn want to delete, which shows how little lleied o uchelgais sydd ganddynt o blaid ambition they have for Wales and the Cymru ac o ran y rheilffyrdd yng Nghymru. railways in Wales. Devolving the railway Byddai datganoli’r rhwydwaith rheilffyrdd— network—the tracks, stations, signals and so y cledrau, y gorsafoedd, y signalau ac yn y on—would give us two things: control over blaen—yn rhoi dau beth i ni: rheolaeth dros the development of our network, and greater ddatblygiad ein rhwydwaith, a mwy o investment. If we were to receive only fuddsoddiad. Pe baem ni ond yn derbyn funding on the basis of the Barnett formula, it cyllid ar sail y fformiwla Barnett, byddai’n would increase investment in Wales cynyddu’r buddsoddiad yng Nghymru yn substantially. At the moment, from what we sylweddol. Ar hyn o bryd, hyd y gallwn ei can see from the latest figures, Network weld o’r ffigurau diweddaraf, roedd gwariant Rail’s expenditure in 2009-10 was about Network Rail yn 2009-10 tua £200 miliwn £200 million in Wales. Investment in yng Nghymru. Mae’r buddsoddiad yn yr Scotland is £650 million, on average, every Alban yn £650 miliwn ar gyfartaledd bob year—three times the level of investment in blwyddyn—tair gwaith lefel y buddsoddiad Wales, for a country that has a population yng Nghymru i wlad sydd â phoblogaidd o that is twice the size. ddwywaith gymaint.

Roeddwn yn gwrando yn ofalus ar sylwadau I listened carefully to the comments made by Vaughan Gething, ac rwy’n eu croesawu yn Vaughan Gething, and I welcome them very fawr iawn. Cafodd rhwydwaith yr Alban ei much. The network in Scotland was devolved ddatganoli ym 2006, ac mae adran yr Alban o in 2006, and the Scottish wing of Network Network Rail yn atebol i Weinidogion yr Rail is now answerable to Scottish Ministers, Alban bellach, trwy asiantaeth hyd-braich, through an arm’s-length body, Transport Transport Scotland. Wrth ddatganoli’r Scotland. In devolving the responsibility, the

110 10/10/2012 cyfrifoldeb, datganolwyd y gyllideb—mae’n budget was devolved—in all likelihood debyg yn ôl fformiwla Barnett. Mae’r according to the Barnett formula. These ffigurau’n ddiddorol iawn ac yn dangos yr figures are very interesting and show what is hyn sy’n bosibl. possible.

Soniodd Eluned Parrott bod angen mwy o Eluned Parrot mentioned the need for more wybodaeth. Dyma’r wybodaeth am Network information. This is the information on Rail yn yr Alban: rhwng 2014 a 2019, yn Network Rail in Scotland: between 2014 and ystod y pum mlynedd hynny, bydd 2019, during those five years, the Scottish Llywodraeth yr Alban—sy’n topio i fyny’r Government, which tops up this expenditure gwariant hwn, wrth gwrs—yn buddsoddi of course, will invest £3.3 billion in the £3.3 biliwn yn rhwydwaith rheilffyrdd y railway network in that country. By the way, wlad. Gyda llaw, y ffigur ar gyfer Lloegr a the figure for England and Wales during that Chymru yn y cyfnod hwnnw, yn fras, yw period will be in the order of £9.5 billion. £9.5 biliwn. Hynny yw, mae’r Alban yn That is, Scotland is spending a quarter of the gwario tua chwarter holl wariant y Deyrnas whole expenditure in the UK, with the help Unedig drwy help Llywodraeth yr Alban. of the Scottish Government. That is what we Dyna’r hyn y dylem fod yn anelu ato yma should be aiming at here in Wales. There is yng Nghymru. Nid oes dwywaith bod y no doubt that the evidence is clear: Wales has dystiolaeth yn glir: bod Cymru wedi ei been underfunded in terms of investment in thangyllido o ran buddsoddiad yn y its railways for years. rheilffyrdd ers blynyddoedd.

Rydym yn gyfrifol am ddatblygu’r economi a We are responsible for developing the thrafnidiaeth, ond heb yr hawl i wneud economy and transport, but we do not have penderfyniadau ar y rhwydwaith rheilffyrdd. the right to make decisions on the railway Nid yw’n gwneud dim synnwyr o gwbl. Yn network. It does not make any sense at all. wir, tan yn ddiweddar iawn, nid oedd Indeed, until very recently, we did not even gennym yr hawl hyd yn oed i gael gwybod have the right to know how much was spent faint oedd yn cael ei wario ar ein rheilffyrdd on our railways here in Wales. If we do not yng Nghymru. Os nad oes gennych chi’r have that basic information, it is very clear wybodaeth sylfaenol honno, yn amlwg iawn, that we have no way of planning for the nid oes gennych chi ffordd o gynllunio ar future or creating an integrated system of gyfer y dyfodol na chreu system integredig o transport. That is what we are looking for, drafnidiaeth. Dyna’r hyn rydym yn chwilio ultimately, in Wales and, of course, to amdano yn y pen draw yng Nghymru ac, improve the obvious links between west and wrth gwrs, i wella’r cysylltiadau amlwg south, north and south, and south and north. rhwng y gorllewin a’r de, a rhwng y gogledd That is a theme that I am sure Dafydd Elis- a’r de a’r de a’r gogledd. Mae honno’n thema Thomas will be very willing to expand on at y bydd Dafydd Elis-Thomas, rwy’n siŵr, yn some point in future. On devolution— barod iawn i ymhelaethu arni ryw dro yn y dyfodol. Ar ddatganoli—

Yr Arglwydd Elis-Thomas: Ar y pwynt Lord Elis-Thomas: On that point, I am hwnnw, rwy’n ddiolchgar iawn i Alun Ffred extremely grateful to Alun Ffred Jones. Jones. Cyfeiriodd Byron Davies, ar yr ochr However, Byron Davies, on the other side of arall, yn ei araith ysgubol wrth agor y ddadl the Chamber, made a sweeping statement in bod yr holl wariant ar reilffyrdd o dan opening the debate that all expenditure on arweiniad disglair ein Gweinidog railways under the excellent leadership of our trafnidiaeth, y cyn Ddirprwy Brif Weinidog, Minister for transport, the former Deputy yn wastraff arian. A fyddai Mr Alun Ffred First Minister, was a waste of money. Would Jones yn cytuno bod y buddsoddiad, yn Mr Alun Ffred Jones agree that the enwedig hwnnw yn nyffryn Dyfi, er mwyn investment, particularly in the Dyfi valley, mynd yn gynt o Bwllheli i Gaerdydd, yn allowing quicker travel from Pwllheli to syniad da iawn? Cardiff, was excellent?

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Alun Ffred Jones: Mae nifer o gynlluniau a Alun Ffred Jones: A number of schemes luniwyd yn y cyfnod hwnnw, a rhai formed at that time, and some schemes in the cynlluniau sydd ar y gweill ar hyn o bryd dan pipeline under the current Minister, will y Gweinidog presennol, yn mynd i gryfhau’r strengthen that network and allow us to travel rhwydwaith hwnnw a’n galluogi i deithio yn more quickly and safely across Wales, but gynt ac yn fwy diogel ar hyd a lled Cymru, there is a long way to go, in terms of ond mae ffordd bell i fynd, o ran croesawu’r welcoming these developments. In devolving datblygiadau hynny. O ddatganoli Network Network Rail and the budget, we could use Rail a’r gyllideb, gallem ddefnyddio’r the borrowing rights that will come— hawliau benthyg a ddaw—gobeithio, yn ôl y hopefully, from discussions this afternoon— trafodaethau y prynhawn yma—i gynyddu’r to increase the budget and to have a long- gyllideb ac i gael cynllun tymor hir i term scheme to upgrade the network here in uwchraddio’r rhwydwaith yma yng Wales. Positive steps have been taken by Nghymru. Mae camau cadarnhaol wedi’u Network Rail itself; a management structure cymryd gan Network Rail ei hun; mae is already in place. The skeleton is in place, strwythur rheolaeth yn ei le yn barod. Mae’r and what is left is a political decision and sgerbwd yn ei le, a’r hyn sydd ar ôl yw commitment by everyone here today. Please penderfyniad ac ymrwymiad gwleidyddol support the motion. gan bawb yma heddiw. Cefnogwch y cynnig, os gwelwch yn dda.

The Minister for Local Government and Y Gweinidog Llywodraeth Leol a Communities (Carl Sargeant): I thank Chymunedau (Carl Sargeant): Diolch i’r Members for the interesting contributions Aelodau am y cyfraniadau diddorol a wnaed that they have made during the Plaid Cymru ganddynt yn ystod dadl Plaid Cymru heddiw. debate today. I am pleased that those Yr wyf yn falch bod y cyfraniadau hynny yn contributions looked at shaping future edrych ar lunio cyfleoedd yn y dyfodol ar opportunities for the franchise in Wales. I gyfer y fasnachfraint yng Nghymru. Hoffwn preface my remarks with the statement that I ragflaenu fy sylwadau gyda’r datganiad na would not want to predetermine any fyddwn yn dymuno rhag-gyflyru unrhyw judgment that I or any ministerial colleague ddyfarniad y bydd yn rhaid i mi neu unrhyw may have to make in the awarding of the rail gydweithiwr gweinidogol ei wneud wrth franchise in 2018. I say that with great ddyfarnu’r fasnachfraint rheilffyrdd yn 2018. knowledge of what happened last week in Yr wyf yn dweud hynny gan fod gennyf terms of the West Coast main line and the wybodaeth drylwyr am yr hyn a key rail links to Wales. As we are all aware, ddigwyddodd yr wythnos diwethaf o ran prif the Department for Transport identified reilffordd Arfordir y Gorllewin ac am y errors in the way that the inflation in cysylltiadau rheilffordd allweddol i Gymru. passenger numbers was taken into account Fel yr ydym i gyd yn gwybod, nododd yr during its review, which led to the Adran Drafnidiaeth wallau yn y ffordd yr cancellation of the procurement programme. oedd chwyddiant yn nifer y teithwyr yn cael ei ystyried yn ystod ei adolygiad, ac arweiniodd hyn at ganslo’r rhaglen gaffael.

The Secretary of State for Transport has Mae’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros commissioned two independent reviews to be Drafnidiaeth wedi comisiynu dau adolygiad undertaken: the first into what went wrong annibynnol i gael eu cynnal: y cyntaf i’r hyn with the West Coast competition and the aeth o’i le gyda’r gystadleuaeth ar gyfer lessons to be learned, and the second into the Arfordir y Gorllewin a’r gwersi i’w dysgu, wider Department for Transport rail franchise a’r ail i raglen ehangach masnachfraint programme—both of which were overseen rheilffyrdd yr Adran Drafnidiaeth—y ddau by leading figures. It is important that these ohonynt i’w goruchwylio gan unigolion reviews identify what went wrong and how blaenllaw. Mae’n bwysig bod yr adolygiadau Government can manage the process better,

112 10/10/2012 so that the public can have confidence that hyn yn nodi beth aeth o’i le a sut y gall y the system works to deliver value for money Llywodraeth reoli’r broses yn well, fel y gall and so that the rail industry can be confident y cyhoedd fod yn hyderus bod y system yn that its bids will be treated fairly. gweithio i ddarparu gwerth am arian ac fel y gall y diwydiant rheilffyrdd fod yn hyderus y bydd ei gynigion yn cael eu trin yn deg.

Currently, as Members are aware, the Welsh Ar hyn o bryd, fel y gŵyr yr Aelodau, mae Government is a joint signatory with the Llywodraeth Cymru yn llofnodwr ar y cyd Secretary of State for Transport on the â’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Drafnidiaeth current Wales and borders rail franchise. The ar gyfer masnachfraint rheilffyrdd presennol new franchise is due to be in place by 2018, Cymru a’r gororau. Mae’r fasnachfraint by which time we should have a significant newydd i fod wedi’i sefydlu erbyn 2018, ac proportion of our rail network electrified. We erbyn hynny dylai fod cyfran sylweddol o’n must have a clear plan as to whether further rhwydwaith rheilffyrdd wedi’i thrydaneiddio. investment in modernising our railway will Mae’n rhaid i ni gael cynllun clir ynghylch a be needed. Members will also be aware, from fydd angen buddsoddiad ychwanegol ar gyfer our debates and my updates on the business moderneiddio ein rheilffyrdd. Bydd yr case for electrification, that the key rail Aelodau hefyd yn ymwybodol, o’n dadleuon decision-making powers lie with the UK a fy niweddariadau ar yr achos busnes dros Government. As we begin the detailed work drydaneiddio, bod y pwerau allweddol i in advance of 2018, and as a result of our wneud penderfyniadau ar y rheilffyrdd yn manifesto commitment, we will be examining gorwedd gyda Llywodraeth y DU. Wrth i ni the case for additional powers to enable ddechrau ar y gwaith manwl ar gyfer 2018, Wales to shape the future of rail here. ac o ganlyniad i’n hymrwymiad yn ein maniffesto, byddwn yn edrych ar yr achos dros bwerau ychwanegol i alluogi Cymru i lunio dyfodol y rheilffyrdd yma.

Simon Thomas: I am grateful to the Minister Simon Thomas: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r for giving way. Could he confirm my Gweinidog am ildio. A wnaiff gadarnhau fy understanding of his party’s manifesto nealltwriaeth o ymrwymiad maniffesto ei commitment, which is that they cannot and blaid, sef na allant hwy ac ni allwch chithau you cannot achieve that, if you do not have gyflawni hynny, os na chewch chi ryw fath o some form of further devolution of powers ddatganoli pellach o bwerau dros y over rail? rheilffyrdd?

Carl Sargeant: For us to fully determine the Carl Sargeant: Er mwyn i ni benderfynu’n shape of a new franchise, there would have to llawn ar ffurf y fasnachfraint newydd, be some changes. However, if you allow me byddai’n rhaid cael rhai newidiadau. Fodd to continue, I might be able to give you some bynnag, os gwnewch chi ganiatáu i mi fynd more information with regard to that. ymlaen, efallai y byddaf yn gallu rhoi mwy o wybodaeth i chi ynglŷn â hynny.

We need to consider the options for the Mae angen i ni ystyried y dewisiadau ar gyfer change carefully. The way that the legal and y newid yn ofalus. Mae’r ffordd y mae’r funding structures that underpin the railways strwythurau cyfreithiol ac ariannol sy’n sail have developed means that the relationships i’r rheilffyrdd wedi datblygu yn golygu bod y are very complex, and funding arrangements berthynas yn gymhleth iawn, ac mae and significant issues of risk apportionment trefniadau ariannu a materion pwysig yn are all part of that. I want to ensure that we ymwneud â dosrannu risg, i gyd yn rhan o have transparency on the true funding costs, hynny. Mae arnaf eisiau sicrhau ein bod yn the risks and the obligations, so that we can cael tryloywder ar y gwir gostau ariannu, y make those informed decisions better on what risgiau a’r rhwymedigaethau, fel y gallwn

113 10/10/2012 is best for passengers in Wales and for the wneud y penderfyniadau gwybodus hynny yn railway in Wales. If we are to have a railway well o ran yr hyn sydd orau i deithwyr yng that meets the needs of the people of Wales, Nghymru ac i’r rheilffordd yng Nghymru. Os then, first, we must be clear about what we ydym am gael rheilffordd sy’n diwallu want to do with it. We know that it serves anghenion pobl Cymru, yna, yn gyntaf, rhaid many different purposes across Wales and we i ni fod yn glir ynghylch yr hyn yr ydym yn need to make sure that there is adequate dymuno ei wneud â hi. Rydym yn gwybod ei provision in place to meet all the demands. bod yn diwallu nifer o wahanol ddibenion ar We want to make sure that the system meets draws Cymru, ac mae angen i ni wneud yn the needs of users across Wales, while also siŵr bod darpariaeth ddigonol ar waith i supporting our society and the economy. fodloni’r holl ofynion. Rydym eisiau gwneud yn siŵr bod y system yn diwallu anghenion defnyddwyr ledled Cymru, ac ar yr un pryd, yn cefnogi ein cymdeithas a’r economi.

On Monday, 1 October, I began my call for Ddydd Llun, 1 Hydref, dechreuais fy evidence on the future of rail in Wales by ngalwad am dystiolaeth ar ddyfodol y bringing together rail industry leaders and rheilffyrdd yng Nghymru trwy ddwyn experts in a forum where they could share ynghyd arweinwyr ac arbenigwyr y their expertise and where the Government diwydiant rheilffyrdd mewn fforwm lle y could listen. I have been clear, in line with gallent rannu eu harbenigedd a lle y gallai’r the Welsh Labour manifesto commitment, Llywodraeth wrando. Rwyf wedi bod yn glir, that we are exploring the feasibility of not- yn unol ag ymrwymiad maniffesto Llafur for-dividend rail franchising. I am also Cymru, ein bod yn archwilio ymarferoldeb examining the franchising process to see masnachfraint rheilffyrdd di-ddifidend. Rwyf whether there is anything about the process hefyd yn edrych ar y broses masnachfraint i itself that has resulted in alternative methods weld a oes unrhyw beth yn ymwneud â’r and modes of franchise, whether it is not-for- broses ei hun sydd wedi arwain at ddulliau dividend or the co-operative model. amgen o fasnachfraint, pa un a yw’n fodel di- ddifidend neu’r model cydweithredol.

Any future approach will be informed by Bydd unrhyw ymdriniaeth yn y dyfodol yn learning from these reviews and the UK has cael ei llywio drwy ddysgu o’r adolygiadau commissioned the West Coast review after hyn ac mae’r DU wedi comisiynu adolygiad the fiasco. o Arfordir y Gorllewin ar ôl y llanast.

Mark Isherwood: I should declare that my Mark Isherwood: Dylwn ddatgan bod fy previous career was in a not-for-profit ngyrfa flaenorol mewn sefydliad nid-er-elw. organisation. Even if an exemption could be Hyd yn oed pe gellid cael esemptiad i alluogi obtained to allow the Welsh Government to Llywodraeth Cymru i eithrio masnachfraint exempt the Wales and borders rail franchise rheilffyrdd Cymru a’r gororau o’r broses from the usual rail franchise process, what masnachfraint rheilffyrdd arferol, pa effaith y impact is EU law likely to have, given that, mae cyfraith yr UE yn debygol o’i chael, o as I understand it, EU law still requires gofio, os wyf wedi deall yn iawn, bod franchise contracts to be advertised and to go cyfraith yr UE yn parhau i fynnu bod out to some form of limited tender? cytundebau masnachfraint i gael eu hysbysebu a’u rhoi allan i ryw fath o dendr cyfyngedig?

Carl Sargeant: The whole process, as I have Carl Sargeant: Mae’r broses gyfan, fel yr been explaining, is extremely complex. I wyf wedi bod yn egluro, yn hynod o have made our position as a Government gymhleth. Rwyf wedi gwneud ein safbwynt clear regarding all the opportunities, whether fel Llywodraeth yn glir ynghylch yr holl they are not-for-dividend or otherwise, gyfleoedd, pa un a ydynt yn ddi-ddifidend

114 10/10/2012 without ruling out anything in between, on neu beidio, heb ddiystyru unrhyw beth yn y the basis that we will have to make a decision canol, ar y sail y bydd rhaid i ni wneud on that process at a later time. I have many penderfyniad ar y broses honno yn points in common with Plaid Cymru’s views ddiweddarach. Mae gen i lawer o bwyntiau on the decision-making process and where it yn gyffredin â barn Plaid Cymru ar y broses lies, but this is a complex issue and we have o wneud penderfyniadau a phwy sy’n gyfrifol to work through it before 2018. I understand am hynny, ond mae hwn yn fater cymhleth ac that your view of public ownership and the mae’n rhaid gweithio i’w ddatrys cyn 2018. potential of that is very different to what Rwyf yn deall bod eich barn ar berchnogaeth other people in the Chamber may be thinking. gyhoeddus a photensial hynny yn wahanol iawn i’r hyn y gallai pobl eraill yn y Siambr fod yn ei feddwl.

On Network Rail, I want to continue to Ar Network Rail, rwyf eisiau parhau i wella improve our relationship with it. I welcomed ein perthynas ag ef. Croesewais sefydlu the establishment of the Network Rail route rheolwr llwybr Network Rail ym mis manager in November 2011, and I have met Tachwedd 2011, ac rwyf wedi cwrdd â with the managing director of the Wales rheolwr gyfarwyddwr llwybr Cymru ar sawl route on many occasions. I believe that that achlysur. Credaf fod y berthynas yn cael ei relationship is being built successfully. hadeiladu yn llwyddiannus. Fodd bynnag, However, I will have more discussions with byddaf yn cael mwy o drafodaethau gyda’r the Secretary of State for Transport very soon Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Drafnidiaeth yn about what that might lead to. We need to fuan iawn am yr hyn y gallai hynny arwain build new opportunities for Wales and ato. Mae angen i ni adeiladu cyfleoedd explore all types of franchising that, as newydd ar gyfer Cymru ac archwilio pob Eluned Parrott made reference to, are good math o fasnachfreintio sydd, fel y cyfeiriodd for the consumer—the people who use it. Eluned Parrott ato, yn dda ar gyfer y However, the franchise also needs to be good defnyddwyr—y bobl sy’n ei defnyddio. Fodd for the people who work in the industry and I bynnag, mae angen i’r fasnachfraint fod yn am keen to understand that better. dda hefyd ar gyfer y bobl sy’n gweithio yn y diwydiant ac rwyf yn awyddus i ddeall hynny’n well.

On the broader issue of rail infrastructure, O ran y mater ehangach o seilwaith there are significant opportunities ahead if we rheilffyrdd, mae cyfleoedd arwyddocaol o’n consider franchising, electrification, the blaenau os ydym yn ystyried securing of new rolling stock, the redefining masnachfreintio, trydaneiddio, sicrhau of the Welsh Government’s role in deciding cerbydau rheilffordd newydd, ailddiffinio rôl on provision, and how all that comes Llywodraeth Cymru wrth benderfynu ar y together. We are planning for the next ddarpariaeth, a sut mae hyn i gyd yn dod at ei railway control period and I have made it gilydd. Rydym yn cynllunio ar gyfer y clear that we must also focus on the case for cyfnod rheoli rheilffordd nesaf ac rwyf wedi investing in north Wales, particularly on ei gwneud yn glir bod yn rhaid i ni hefyd electrification. I have already written to the ganolbwyntio ar yr achos dros fuddsoddi yng new Secretary of State for Transport on this ngogledd Cymru, yn enwedig ar issue. drydaneiddio. Rwyf eisoes wedi ysgrifennu at yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol newydd dros Drafnidiaeth ar y mater hwn.

There are many challenges, which I referred Mae llawer o heriau, fel y cyfeiriais atynt yn to earlier. The majority of the decision- gynharach, yn ein hwynebu. Mae’r rhan making and funding-stream processes sit fwyaf o’r penderfyniadau a’r prosesau ffrwd- within the responsibility of the UK arian yn dod o dan gyfrifoldeb Llywodraeth y Government. That is covered by the DU. Mae hynny’n cael ei gwmpasu gan y

115 10/10/2012 procurement process, which must be fair and broses gaffael, ac mae’n rhaid i hynny fod yn comply with the requirements of European deg a chydymffurfio â gofynion cyfraith law. However, I am keen to explore new Ewropeaidd. Fodd bynnag, rwyf yn awyddus opportunities for Wales—done in the right i archwilio cyfleoedd newydd i Gymru—a way. Discussions with the Secretary of State gwneud hynny yn y ffordd gywir. Bydd for Transport will be critical in that process. trafodaethau gyda’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Drafnidiaeth yn hollbwysig yn y broses honno.

Over the coming months, there will be Dros y misoedd nesaf, bydd cyfleoedd i opportunities to contribute to the gyfrannu at ddatblygu safbwynt ar ddyfodol development of a position on our rail future ein rheilffyrdd yng Nghymru. Rwyf yn in Wales. I hope that today’s positive gobeithio y bydd y cyfraniadau cadarnhaol contributions from Members mean that they gan Aelodau heddiw yn golygu y byddant yn will support me in the process of developing fy nghefnogi yn y broses o ddatblygu a future rail service for Wales that is gwasanaeth rheilffyrdd ar gyfer y dyfodol i supported by the industry, consumers and the Gymru sy’n cael ei gefnogi gan y diwydiant, people who work closely with the rail y defnyddwyr, a’r bobl sy’n gweithio’n agos industry in Wales. gyda’r diwydiant rheilffyrdd yng Nghymru.

Simon Thomas: I thank everyone who has Simon Thomas: Hoffwn ddiolch i bawb taken part in the debate today. I want to sydd wedi cymryd rhan yn y ddadl heddiw. address some of the speakers and speak to Rwyf eisiau annerch rhai o’r siaradwyr a rhoi some of the amendments. Before I do that, let sylw i rai o’r gwelliannau. Cyn i mi wneud me put on record our view as a party on why hynny, gadewch i mi nodi ar goedd ein barn we brought this debate forward and why we fel plaid ar pam y daethom â’r ddadl hon are talking about these issues today. The gerbron, a pham yr ydym yn sôn am y failure of the break up and privatisation, and materion hyn heddiw. Mae methiant y the vertical break up in particular, of the UK datgymalu a phreifateiddio, yn enwedig y railway system has led to a series of datgymalu fertigol, o system reilffyrdd y DU disastrous pieces of decision making and wedi arwain at gyfres o benderfyniadau a marketing and a disastrous provision of threfniadau marchnata trychinebus a services. darpariaeth drychinebus o wasanaethau.

When we talk about issues around the current Wrth i ni sôn am faterion yn ymwneud â’r situation on the West Coast main line, we sefyllfa bresennol ar brif reilffordd Arfordir y need to bear in mind the background. Gorllewin, mae angen i ni gadw’r cefndir Railtrack failed because it was not delivering mewn cof. Methodd Railtrack am nad oedd for the public good. It was a private model yn cyflawni er lles y cyhoedd. Yr oedd yn that could not deliver for public good. It had fodel preifat na allai gyflawni er lles y to be taken over by Network Rail, as a non- cyhoedd. Roedd yn rhaid iddo gael ei gymryd dividend-making body. The East Coast main drosodd gan Network Rail, fel corff di- line, as Llyr Huws Gruffydd mentioned, has ddifidend. Mae prif reilffordd Arfordir y failed and has had to be taken over by Dwyrain, fel y crybwyllodd Llyr Huws directly operated railways. We want to ensure Gruffydd, wedi methu ac wedi gorfod cael ei that, in Wales, we prepare for the future now. chymryd drosodd gan Directly Operated As Llyr and Ffred have set out, the present Railways. Rydym eisiau sicrhau ein bod, yng franchise system, although operating, is Nghymru, yn paratoi nawr ar gyfer y dyfodol. based on no growth. It has not delivered for Fel mae Llyr a Ffred wedi nodi, mae’r system Wales and has not enabled us to grow our fasnachfraint bresennol, er ei bod yn railways, except by using non-railway money gweithredu, yn seiliedig ar ddim twf. Nid yw from our Barnett consequentials to invest in wedi cyflawni dros Gymru ac nid yw wedi railways. Also, it has allowed £13 million a ein galluogi i dyfu ein rheilffyrdd, ac eithrio year to be sucked out and paid to drwy ddefnyddio arian nad yw ar gyfer y

116 10/10/2012 shareholders, wherever they may be outside rheilffyrdd o’n symiau canlyniadol Barnett i Wales, and not directly reinvested. fuddsoddi mewn rheilffyrdd. Hefyd, mae wedi caniatáu i £13 miliwn y flwyddyn gael ei sugno allan a’i dalu i gyfranddalwyr, lle bynnag y bônt y tu allan i Gymru, ac nid cael ei ail-fuddsoddi yn uniongyrchol.

5.15 p.m.

We are not wedded to any particular vehicle Nid ydym yn gaeth i unrhyw ddull penodol ar for how we might take this forward in Wales, hyn o bryd ar gyfer sut y gallem fwrw but we want it to be a non-dividend model so ymlaen â hyn yng Nghymru, ond yr ydym am that the money made in Wales from the iddo fod yn fodel di-ddifidend fel bod yr growth in our railways—and we certainly arian a wneir o dwf yn ein rheilffyrdd yng want to see that in sustainable development Nghymru—ac rydym yn sicr eisiau gweld terms, with sustainable transport solutions— hynny yn nhermau datblygu cynaliadwy, is reinvested back into the railways in Wales. gydag atebion trafnidiaeth cynaliadwy—yn It is as simple as that. That is the red line in cael ei ail-fuddsoddi yn y rheilffyrdd yng the sand for Plaid Cymru. I am disappointed Nghymru. Mae mor syml â hynny. Dyna’r that, although some people are interested in llinell goch yn y tywod i Blaid Cymru. Rwyf this idea, they are not as interested as we are yn siomedig, er bod rhai pobl â diddordeb yn in reinvesting money back in Wales. That is y syniad hwn, nad oes ganddynt gymaint o what we want to see. ddiddordeb â ni mewn ail-fuddsoddi arian yn ôl yng Nghymru. Dyna beth yr ydym ni am ei weld.

Turning to the amendments, the amendment Gan droi at y gwelliannau, mae’r gwelliant from the Conservatives, lamentably backed gan y Ceidwadwyr, gyda chefnogaeth up by the Liberal Democrats—although it has druenus gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol— been ruled out of order, thank goodness— er ei fod wedi cael ei ddyfarnu’n annerbyniol, seeks to delete part of point 1 of the motion, diolch byth—yn ceisio dileu rhan o bwynt 1 because they cannot agree that this is y cynnig, oherwydd na allant gytuno bod hyn incompetence. Well, what did the Daily yn aflerwch. Wel, sut y disgrifiodd Y Daily Torygraph—I mean The Daily Telegraph, Torygraph—y Daily Telegraph dwi’n describe this decision-making process as just feddwl, y broses gwneud penderfyniadau hon today? ‘Incompetence’ on a ‘dizzying scale’. heddiw ddiwethaf? Aflerwch ar raddfa What did a Conservative MP say about this syfrdanol. Beth ddywedodd AS Ceidwadol Government? He said that there was am y Llywodraeth hon? Dywedodd fod incompetence at the highest levels of aflerwch ar y lefelau uchaf yn y Llywodraeth. Government. That Conservative MP was one David Davies oedd yr AS Ceidwadol hwnnw, David Davies, who might be known to the a allai fod yn hysbys i’r bobl gyferbyn. people opposite. It is true that he was talking Mae’n wir mai am y mater pwysig o briodas about the major issue of gay marriage and not hoyw yr oedd yn sôn ac nid am fater pitw prif the piddling issue of the west coast main line reilffordd arfordir y gorllewin nac am £40 and of £40 million to £100 million of public miliwn i £100 miliwn o arian cyhoeddus yn money being wasted. Nevertheless, he cael ei wastraffu. Serch hynny, roedd yn recognised that this Government in cydnabod bod y Llywodraeth hon yn San Westminster has incompetence at the highest Steffan yn dangos aflerwch ar y lefelau levels. Whether it is pleb-gate or west-coast- uchaf. Pa un a yw’n pleb-gate neu’n brif- main-line-gate, there is incompetence and a reilffordd-arfordir-y-gorllewin-gate mae’n failure to deliver. dangos aflerwch a methiant i gyflawni.

I did not understand Byron Davies’s Nid oeddwn yn deall dadl Byron Davies o argument at all. He talked of wanting a gwbl. Soniodd am fod eisiau cenedl

117 10/10/2012 connected nation, yet talked against the gysylltiedig, ond eto siaradodd yn erbyn y investment that Ieuan Wyn Jones made to the buddsoddiad a wnaeth Ieuan Wyn Jones i’r road infrastructure in the last Government. seilwaith ffyrdd yn y Llywodraeth ddiwethaf. He talked against linking up the nation with Siaradodd yn erbyn cysylltu’r genedl gyda an airline, but getting from one end of the chwmni hedfan, ond gallu mynd o un pen i’r nation to the other in a reasonable period of wlad i’r llall mewn cyfnod rhesymol o amser time would be the minimum that any nation yw’r lleiaf y byddai unrhyw wlad yn y byd in the western world would expect. He talked gorllewinol yn ei ddisgwyl. Siaradodd yn against public sector rail services and said erbyn gwasanaethau rheilffyrdd y sector that he was against them. Yet, as Llyr Huws cyhoeddus gan ddweud ei fod yn eu Gruffydd pointed out, the east coast main line gwrthwynebu. Er hynny, fel y nodwyd gan is run by Directly Operated Railways. What Llyr Huws Gruffydd, mae prif reilffordd is more, it is likely that Directly Operated arfordir y dwyrain yn cael ei rhedeg gan Railways will have to take over the west Directly Operated Railways. Hefyd, mae’n coast main line because of the legal situation. debygol y bydd yn rhaid i Directly Operated There will be a statement coming out in the Railways gymryd prif reilffordd arfordir y next week. It is likely that, after 6 December, gorllewin drosodd hefyd oherwydd y sefyllfa we will have directly operated public sector gyfreithiol. Bydd datganiad yn dod allan yn rail services on the west coast main line, ystod yr wythnos nesaf. Mae’n debygol y directly because of the failure of a Tory bydd gennym, ar ôl 6 Rhagfyr, wasanaethau Government to do the franchise properly. The rheilffyrdd sector cyhoeddus yn cael eu Tory Government is undermining its own rhedeg yn uniongyrchol ar brif reilffordd private sector ideas. What he set out was so arfordir y gorllewin, a hynny yn beyond belief that we cannot say any more uniongyrchol oherwydd methiant about it. Llywodraeth Dorïaidd i ymdrin â’r fasnachfraint yn gywir. Mae’r Llywodraeth Dorïaidd yn tanseilio ei syniadau sector preifat eu hunan. Y mae’r hyn y mae wedi’i nodi mor anhygoel fel na allwn ddweud unrhyw beth mwy amdano.

As regards the other amendments from the O ran gwelliannau eraill gan y Ceidwadwyr, Conservatives, they want to take away further maent yn awyddus i beidio â chael datganoli devolution. As I confirmed with the Minister, pellach. Fel y cadarnheais gyda’r Gweinidog, it is essential that we get that further mae’n hanfodol ein bod yn cael y datganoli devolution, even to meet his own, perhaps pellach hwnnw, petai ond i fodloni ei less ambitious—I would not like to say— ddyheadau, efallai llai uchelgeisiol—hoffwn aspirations. However, even to meet his own i ddim dweud—ei hun. Fodd bynnag, hyd yn ambitions, we want that infrastructure, and so oed dim ond i fodloni ei uchelgais ef, rydym I cannot agree with that Conservative eisiau’r seilwaith hwnnw, ac felly ni allaf amendment. gytuno â gwelliant y Ceidwadwyr.

Turning to the Liberal Democrats’ Gan droi at welliannau’r Democratiaid amendments, and Eluned Parrott’s Rhyddfrydol, a chyfraniad Eluned Parrott i’r contribution to the debate, I find it ddadl, rwyf yn credu ei bod yn annerbyniol unacceptable that she thought that this was iddi hi feddwl bod yn darnio pethau fragmenting things further. We are trying to ymhellach. Ceisio atal y darnio yr ydym ni. stop the fragmentation. The fragmentation set Mae’r darnio a achoswyd gan y preifateiddio in train by the initial privatisation of the cychwynnol o’r gwasanaeth rheilffordd ac yn railway service and particularly the political enwedig y rhaniad gwleidyddol llorweddol horizontal split has led to the situation in wedi arwain at y sefyllfa yr ydym ynddi which we are now. We want to stop this erbyn hyn. Rydym yn awyddus i atal hyn happening. We can do it in Wales. With the rhag digwydd. Gallwn wneud hynny yng right tools and the devolution, we can do that, Nghymru. Gyda’r dulliau cywir a’r datganoli,

118 10/10/2012 and we can work the franchise properly. It gallwn wneud hynny, a gallwn weithredu’r works alright in Scotland. I am sure that fasnachfraint yn gywir. Mae’n gweithio’n many of us have travelled to Scotland by iawn yn yr Alban. Rwyf yn siŵr bod llawer train, and we did not have to change trains ohonom wedi teithio i’r Alban ar y trên, ac when we went over the border or anything nid oedd rhaid i ni newid trenau pan aethom like that. It is an integrated network that we dros y ffin nac unrhyw beth felly. have in the United Kingdom, which will Rhwydwaith integredig sydd gennym yn y continue after the referendum ‘yes’ vote in Deyrnas Unedig, a fydd yn parhau ar ôl y Scotland in two years’ time and will continue bleidlais ‘ie’ yn refferendwm yr Alban in Wales when we get our own devolved ymhen dwy flynedd a bydd yn parhau yng situation here. Eluned was at least open to the Nghymru pan fyddwn yn cael ein sefyllfa idea of a non-profit distributing, non- ddatganoledig ein hunain yma. Roedd Eluned dividend making vehicle, and I hope that the o leiaf yn agored i’r syniad o ddull dosrannu Liberal Democrats, as they see the evidence di-elw, di-ddifidend, a gobeithiaf y bydd y of the failure of the present system, will Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, wrth iddynt weld strengthen their support for our policies. y dystiolaeth o fethiant y system bresennol, yn cryfhau eu cefnogaeth i’n polisïau.

Eluned Parrott: I note the failures of a Eluned Parrott: Nodaf fethiannau un neu couple of the profit-making companies. ddau o’r cwmnïau er elw. A fyddech chi’n Would you say that Arriva Trains Wales, dweud bod Trenau Arriva Cymru, sydd which has one of the best punctuality and ymhlith y gorau o ran prydlondeb a reliability records in British railways, is also dibynadwyedd o ystyried rheilffyrdd Prydain, a failure? hefyd yn fethiant?

Simon Thomas: Not at all. We have not said Simon Thomas: Ddim o gwbl. Nid ydym anything about the companies in this motion. wedi dweud unrhyw beth am y cwmnïau yn y This is about Government decision making cynnig hwn. Mae hyn yn ymwneud â’r and the principles for the future. I travel with penderfyniadau a wneir gan y Llywodraeth Arriva Trains Wales very often between a’r egwyddorion ar gyfer y dyfodol. Rwyf yn Aberystwyth and Cardiff. I just wish that it teithio gyda Threnau Arriva Cymru yn aml was a swifter journey that did not involve a iawn rhwng Aberystwyth a Chaerdydd. Yr change outside Wales, that is all. unig beth a hoffwn fyddai taith fyrrach a pheidio â gorfod newid trenau y tu allan i Gymru, dyna i gyd.

Turning to the rest of the contributions, I was Gan droi at weddill y cyfraniadau, rwyf yn pleased that Vaughan Gething could give us falch bod Vaughan Gething yn gallu rhoi support in principle, at least. I join him in cefnogaeth mewn egwyddor, o leiaf. Ymunaf hoping that we can work on many more ideas ag ef mewn gobeithio y gallwn weithio ar here. We are not wedded to a particular lawer mwy o syniadau yma. Nid ydym yn model, but a co-operative model certainly has gaeth i fodel arbennig, ond mae’r model its attractions, because it would mean that cydweithredol yn sicr yn atyniadol, gan y workers are a part of the success of the byddai’n golygu bod gweithwyr hefyd yn railways as well. That is certainly something rhan o lwyddiant y rheilffyrdd. Mae hynny’n that we should strive for whichever model we sicr yn rhywbeth y dylem ymdrechu i’w agree with. Alun Ffred Jones set out very gyflawni pa bynnag fodel yr ydym yn cytuno clearly how it had worked in Scotland and ag ef. Fe nododd Alun Ffred Jones yn glir that it had unlocked further and higher iawn sut yr oedd hyn wedi gweithio yn yr investment. That is the important thing here. Alban a’i fod wedi datgloi buddsoddiad We want to keep investment in Wales and ychwanegol buddsoddiad mwy. Dyna’r peth unlock further investment. That is why we pwysig yma. Rydym yn awyddus i gadw’r fight for Wales and stand up for Wales in buddsoddiad yng Nghymru a datgloi bringing forward this motion today. buddsoddiad ychwanegol. Dyna pam yr

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ydym yn brwydro dros Gymru ac yn sefyll dros Gymru wrth gyflwyno’r cynnig hwn heddiw.

Llyr made some extremely pertinent points, Gwnaeth Llyr rai pwyntiau hynod berthnasol, some of which I have already mentioned. rhai ohonynt yr wyf wedi eu crybwyll eisoes. Perhaps the most important to remember here Efallai mai’r un mwyaf pwysig i’w gofio is that this is public money, going to a yma yw mai arian cyhoeddus yw hwn, yn railway that is operating in Wales and serving mynd i reilffordd sy’n gweithredu yng the people of Wales. We need to ensure that Nghymru ac yn gwasanaethu pobl Cymru. we generate public good out of that public Mae angen i ni sicrhau ein bod yn creu daioni money, and that means that the profits should i’r cyhoedd o’r arian cyhoeddus hwnnw, ac be recycled in Wales. mae hynny’n golygu y dylai’r elw gael ei ailgylchu yng Nghymru.

I thank the Minister for his contribution. I Diolch i’r Gweinidog am ei gyfraniad. welcome the fact that he is opening up this Croesawaf y ffaith ei fod yn agor y further discussion on how we can go forward drafodaeth bellach hon ar sut y gallwn symud with the railways in Wales. I welcome his ymlaen â’r rheilffyrdd yng Nghymru. Rwyf commitment to seeking further devolution. yn croesawu ei ymrwymiad i geisio datganoli However, we hear a lot about exploring, pellach. Fodd bynnag, rydym yn clywed examining, looking into and investigating by llawer am archwilio, edrych i mewn i bethau, this Government. It is time to ensure that we ac ymchwilio gan y Llywodraeth hon. Mae’n get a non-profit distributing, non-dividend amser i sicrhau ein bod yn cael dull nad yw’n making vehicle for our railways in Wales. dosrannu elw, di-ddifidend ar gyfer ein However, I look forward to working with him rheilffyrdd yng Nghymru. Fodd bynnag, to achieve that aim. edrychaf ymlaen at weithio gydag ef i gyflawni’r nod hwnnw.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: I make it Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Yr wyf yn ei gwneud clear that amendment 2 was not out of order. yn glir nad oedd gwelliant 2 yn annerbyniol It was deselected because, in effect, it Fe’i dad-ddewisiwyd oherwydd ei fod, mewn repeated amendment 1. Had amendment 1 gwirionedd, yn ailadrodd gwelliant 1. Pe na not been tabled, amendment 2 would have byddai gwelliant 1 wedi ei gyflwyno, byddai been selected. gwelliant 2 wedi ei ddewis.

Y cwestiwn yw a ddylid derbyn y cynnig heb The question is that the motion be agreed ei ddiwygio. A oes gwrthwynebiad? Gwelaf without amendment. Is there objection? I see fod. Felly, gohiriaf y bleidlais ar yr eitem hon that there is. Therefore, I will postpone tan y cyfnod pleidleisio. voting on this item until voting time.

Voting time now follows, but before I Mae’r cyfnod pleidleisio yn dilyn yn awr, proceed with the first set of votes, are there ond cyn i mi fwrw ymlaen â’r gyfres gyntaf o three Members who wish for the bell to be bleidleisiau, a oes tri Aelod sy’n dymuno i’r rung? I see that there are not, so we will gloch gael ei chanu? Gwelaf nad oes, felly proceed to voting time. awn ymlaen i’r cyfnod pleidleisio.

Gohiriwyd y pleidleisio tan y cyfnod pleidleisio. Voting deferred until voting time.

Cyfnod Pleidleisio Voting Time

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Cynnig NDM5058: O blaid 19, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 31. Motion NDM5058: For 19, Abstain 0, Against 31.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn: The following Members voted for: The following Members voted against:

Asghar, Mohammad Andrews, Leighton Burns, Angela Antoniw, Mick Davies, Andrew R.T. Black, Peter Davies, Byron Chapman, Christine Davies, Jocelyn Cuthbert, Jeff Davies, Paul Davies, Alun Finch-Saunders, Janet Drakeford, Mark George, Russell Evans, Rebecca Graham, William Gething, Vaughan Gruffydd, Llyr Huws Gregory, Janice Isherwood, Mark Griffiths, John Jenkins, Bethan Griffiths, Lesley Jones, Alun Ffred Hedges, Mike Millar, Darren Hutt, Jane Ramsay, Nick Jones, Ann Sandbach, Antoinette Jones, Carwyn Thomas, Simon Lewis, Huw Whittle, Lindsay Mewies, Sandy Wood, Leanne Morgan, Julie Neagle, Lynne Parrott, Eluned Powell, William Price, Gwyn R. Rathbone, Jenny Rees, David Roberts, Aled Sargeant, Carl Skates, Kenneth Thomas, Gwenda Watson, Joyce Williams, Kirsty

Gwrthodwyd y cynnig. Motion not agreed.

Gwelliant 1 i NDM5058: O blaid 26, Ymatal 8, Yn erbyn 17. Amendment 1 to NDM5058: For 26, Abstain 8, Against 17.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn: The following Members voted for: The following Members voted against:

Andrews, Leighton Asghar, Mohammad Antoniw, Mick Black, Peter Chapman, Christine Burns, Angela Cuthbert, Jeff Davies, Andrew R.T. Davies, Alun Davies, Byron Drakeford, Mark Davies, Paul Evans, Rebecca Finch-Saunders, Janet Gething, Vaughan George, Russell Gregory, Janice Graham, William Griffiths, John Isherwood, Mark Griffiths, Lesley Millar, Darren Hedges, Mike Parrott, Eluned Hutt, Jane Powell, William Jones, Ann Ramsay, Nick Jones, Carwyn Roberts, Aled Lewis, Huw Sandbach, Antoinette Mewies, Sandy Williams, Kirsty Morgan, Julie

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Neagle, Lynne Price, Gwyn R. Rathbone, Jenny Rees, David Sargeant, Carl Skates, Kenneth Thomas, Gwenda Watson, Joyce

Ymataliodd yr Aelodau canlynol: The following Members abstained:

Davies, Jocelyn Gruffydd, Llyr Huws Jenkins, Bethan Jones, Alun Ffred Jones, Elin Thomas, Simon Whittle, Lindsay Wood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant. Amendment agreed.

Gwelliant 2 i NDM5058: O blaid 26, Ymatal 8, Yn erbyn 17. Amendment 2 to NDM5058: For 26, Abstain 8, Against 17.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn: The following Members voted for: The following Members voted against:

Andrews, Leighton Asghar, Mohammad Antoniw, Mick Black, Peter Chapman, Christine Burns, Angela Cuthbert, Jeff Davies, Andrew R.T. Davies, Alun Davies, Byron Drakeford, Mark Davies, Paul Evans, Rebecca Finch-Saunders, Janet Gething, Vaughan George, Russell Gregory, Janice Graham, William Griffiths, John Isherwood, Mark Griffiths, Lesley Millar, Darren Hedges, Mike Parrott, Eluned Hutt, Jane Powell, William Jones, Ann Ramsay, Nick Jones, Carwyn Roberts, Aled Lewis, Huw Sandbach, Antoinette Mewies, Sandy Williams, Kirsty Morgan, Julie Neagle, Lynne Price, Gwyn R. Rathbone, Jenny Rees, David Sargeant, Carl Skates, Kenneth Thomas, Gwenda Watson, Joyce

Ymataliodd yr Aelodau canlynol: The following Members abstained:

Davies, Jocelyn Gruffydd, Llyr Huws Jenkins, Bethan Jones, Alun Ffred Jones, Elin Thomas, Simon

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Whittle, Lindsay Wood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant. Amendment agreed.

Gwelliant 3 i NDM5058: O blaid 34, Ymatal 12, Yn erbyn 5. Amendment 3 to NDM5058: For 34, Abstain 12, Against 5.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn: The following Members voted for: The following Members voted against:

Andrews, Leighton Black, Peter Antoniw, Mick Parrott, Eluned Chapman, Christine Powell, William Cuthbert, Jeff Roberts, Aled Davies, Alun Williams, Kirsty Davies, Jocelyn Drakeford, Mark Evans, Rebecca Gething, Vaughan Gregory, Janice Griffiths, John Griffiths, Lesley Gruffydd, Llyr Huws Hedges, Mike Hutt, Jane Jenkins, Bethan Jones, Alun Ffred Jones, Ann Jones, Carwyn Jones, Elin Lewis, Huw Mewies, Sandy Morgan, Julie Neagle, Lynne Price, Gwyn R. Rathbone, Jenny Rees, David Sargeant, Carl Skates, Kenneth Thomas, Gwenda Thomas, Simon Watson, Joyce Whittle, Lindsay Wood, Leanne

Ymataliodd yr Aelodau canlynol: The following Members abstained:

Asghar, Mohammad Burns, Angela Davies, Andrew R.T. Davies, Byron Davies, Paul Finch-Saunders, Janet George, Russell Graham, William Isherwood, Mark Millar, Darren Ramsay, Nick Sandbach, Antoinette

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant. Amendment agreed.

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Gwelliant 4 i NDM5058: O blaid 51, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 0. Amendment 4 to NDM5058: For 51, Abstain 0, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: The following Members voted for:

Andrews, Leighton Antoniw, Mick Asghar, Mohammad Black, Peter Burns, Angela Chapman, Christine Cuthbert, Jeff Davies, Alun Davies, Andrew R.T. Davies, Byron Davies, Jocelyn Davies, Paul Drakeford, Mark Evans, Rebecca Finch-Saunders, Janet George, Russell Gething, Vaughan Graham, William Gregory, Janice Griffiths, John Griffiths, Lesley Gruffydd, Llyr Huws Hedges, Mike Hutt, Jane Isherwood, Mark Jenkins, Bethan Jones, Alun Ffred Jones, Ann Jones, Carwyn Jones, Elin Lewis, Huw Mewies, Sandy Millar, Darren Morgan, Julie Neagle, Lynne Parrott, Eluned Powell, William Price, Gwyn R. Ramsay, Nick Rathbone, Jenny Rees, David Roberts, Aled Sandbach, Antoinette Sargeant, Carl Skates, Kenneth Thomas, Gwenda Thomas, Simon Watson, Joyce Whittle, Lindsay Williams, Kirsty Wood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant. Amendment agreed.

Gwelliant 5 i NDM5058: O blaid 51, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 0. Amendment 5 to NDM5058: For 51, Abstain 0, Against 0.

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Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: The following Members voted for:

Antoniw, Mick Asghar, Mohammad Black, Peter Burns, Angela Chapman, Christine Cuthbert, Jeff Davies, Alun Davies, Andrew R.T. Davies, Byron Davies, Jocelyn Davies, Keith Davies, Paul Davies, Suzy Drakeford, Mark Elis-Thomas, yr Arglwydd/Lord Evans, Rebecca Finch-Saunders, Janet George, Russell Gething, Vaughan Graham, William Gregory, Janice Griffiths, John Griffiths, Lesley Hart, Edwina Hedges, Mike Hutt, Jane Isherwood, Mark Jenkins, Bethan Jones, Ann Jones, Carwyn Jones, Elin Jones, Ieuan Wyn Mewies, Sandy Millar, Darren Morgan, Julie Neagle, Lynne Parrott, Eluned Powell, William Price, Gwyn R. Rathbone, Jenny Rees, David Roberts, Aled Sandbach, Antoinette Sargeant, Carl Skates, Kenneth Thomas, Gwenda Thomas, Rhodri Glyn Watson, Joyce Whittle, Lindsay Williams, Kirsty Wood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant. Amendment agreed.

Gwelliant 6 i NDM5058: O blaid 51, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 0. Amendment 6 to NDM5058: For 51, Abstain 0, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: The following Members voted for:

Andrews, Leighton

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Antoniw, Mick Asghar, Mohammad Black, Peter Burns, Angela Chapman, Christine Cuthbert, Jeff Davies, Alun Davies, Andrew R.T. Davies, Byron Davies, Jocelyn Davies, Paul Drakeford, Mark Evans, Rebecca Finch-Saunders, Janet George, Russell Gething, Vaughan Graham, William Gregory, Janice Griffiths, John Griffiths, Lesley Gruffydd, Llyr Huws Hedges, Mike Hutt, Jane Isherwood, Mark Jenkins, Bethan Jones, Alun Ffred Jones, Ann Jones, Carwyn Jones, Elin Lewis, Huw Mewies, Sandy Millar, Darren Morgan, Julie Neagle, Lynne Parrott, Eluned Powell, William Price, Gwyn R. Ramsay, Nick Rathbone, Jenny Rees, David Roberts, Aled Sandbach, Antoinette Sargeant, Carl Skates, Kenneth Thomas, Gwenda Thomas, Simon Watson, Joyce Whittle, Lindsay Williams, Kirsty Wood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant. Amendment agreed.

Cynnig NDM5058 fel y’i diwygiwyd: Motion NDM5058 as amended:

Mae Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru: The National Assembly for Wales:

1. Yn nodi’r camau a gymerwyd gan 1. Notes steps taken by the UK Government Lywodraeth y DU i ysgogi’r economi, to stimulate the economy, upgrade uwchraddio’r seilwaith a chreu swyddi yng infrastructure and create jobs in Wales. Nghymru.

2. Yn annog Llywodraeth Cymru i weithio’n 2. Encourages the Welsh Government to

126 10/10/2012 adeiladol gyda Llywodraeth y DU i sicrhau work constructively with the UK Government ffyniant i bobl Cymru. to deliver prosperity for the people of Wales.

3. Yn annog Llywodraeth Cymru i geisio 3. Encourages the Welsh Government to seek pwerau benthyca gwirioneddol ac i greu meaningful borrowing powers and to create cwmni hyd braich, nad yw’n talu difidend, i a non-dividend-paying arm’s length company ariannu prosiectau cyfalaf newydd. to fund new capital projects.

4. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i wneud 4. Calls on the Welsh Government to make cynnydd ar Ardaloedd Menter, diwygio progress on Enterprise Zones, business rates ardrethi busnes, strategaeth weithgynhyrchu reform, a manufacturing strategy and a band eang ar gyfer busnesau fel mater o broadband for business as a matter of frys, er mwyn helpu i ysgogi’r economi. urgency, in order to help stimulate the economy.

5. Yn croesawu’r ffaith bod Llywodraeth y 5. Welcomes the establishment by the UK DU wedi sefydlu Banc Buddsoddi Gwyrdd, Government of a Green Investment bank, as a fel ffordd o helpu i ysgogi’r economi. means to help stimulate the economy.

6. Yn nodi pa mor bwysig i Gymru yw 6. Notes the importance to Wales of uwchraddio’r seilwaith rheilffyrdd drwy upgrading rail infrastructure through drydaneiddio, yn ogystal â’r manteision yn electrification, and the benefits this will bring sgîl hyn i’r economi, ac yn galw ar to the economy, and calls on the Welsh Lywodraeth Cymru i weithio gyda Government to work with the UK Llywodraeth y DU i drydaneiddio prif Government to electrify the North Wales reilffordd gogledd Cymru. mainline.

Cynnig NDM5058 fel y’i diwygiwyd: O blaid 39, Ymatal 12, Yn erbyn 0. Motion NDM5058 as amended: For 39, Abstain 12, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: The following Members voted for:

Antoniw, Mick Black, Peter Chapman, Christine Cuthbert, Jeff Davies, Alun Davies, Jocelyn Davies, Keith Drakeford, Mark Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord Evans, Rebecca Gething, Vaughan Gregory, Janice Griffiths, John Griffiths, Lesley Hart, Edwina Hedges, Mike Hutt, Jane Isherwood, Mark Jenkins, Bethan Jones, Ann Jones, Carwyn Jones, Elin Jones, Ieuan Wyn Mewies, Sandy Morgan, Julie Neagle, Lynne Parrott, Eluned

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Powell, William Price, Gwyn R. Rathbone, Jenny Rees, David Sargeant, Carl Skates, Kenneth Thomas, Gwenda Thomas, Rhodri Glyn Watson, Joyce Whittle, Lindsay Williams, Kirsty Wood, Leanne

Ymataliodd yr Aelodau canlynol: The following Members abstained:

Asghar, Mohammad Burns, Angela Davies, Andrew R.T. Davies, Byron Davies, Paul Davies, Suzy Finch-Saunders, Janet George, Russell Graham, William Millar, Darren Roberts, Aled Sandbach, Antoinette

Derbyniwyd y cynnig NDM5058 fel y’i diwygiwyd. Motion NDM5058 as amended agreed.

Cynnig NDM5059: O blaid 8, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 43. Motion NDM5059: For 8, Abstain 0, Against 43.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn: The following Members voted for: The following Members voted against:

Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord Antoniw, Mick Jenkins, Bethan Asghar, Mohammad Jones, Elin Black, Peter Jones, Ieuan Wyn Burns, Angela Rees, David Chapman, Christine Thomas, Gwenda Cuthbert, Jeff Whittle, Lindsay Davies, Alun Wood, Leanne Davies, Andrew R.T. Davies, Byron Davies, Jocelyn Davies, Keith Davies, Paul Davies, Suzy Drakeford, Mark Evans, Rebecca Finch-Saunders, Janet George, Russell Gething, Vaughan Graham, William Gregory, Janice Griffiths, John Griffiths, Lesley Hart, Edwina Hedges, Mike Hutt, Jane Isherwood, Mark Jones, Ann Jones, Carwyn

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Mewies, Sandy Millar, Darren Morgan, Julie Neagle, Lynne Parrott, Eluned Powell, William Price, Gwyn R. Rathbone, Jenny Roberts, Aled Sandbach, Antoinette Sargeant, Carl Skates, Kenneth Thomas, Rhodri Glyn Watson, Joyce Williams, Kirsty

Gwrthodwyd y cynnig. Motion not agreed.

Gwelliant 1 i NDM5059: O blaid 17, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 34. Amendment 1 to NDM5059: For 17, Abstain 0, Against 34.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn: The following Members voted for: The following Members voted against:

Asghar, Mohammad Andrews, Leighton Black, Peter Antoniw, Mick Burns, Angela Chapman, Christine Davies, Andrew R.T. Cuthbert, Jeff Davies, Byron Davies, Alun Davies, Paul Davies, Jocelyn Finch-Saunders, Janet Drakeford, Mark George, Russell Evans, Rebecca Graham, William Gething, Vaughan Isherwood, Mark Gregory, Janice Millar, Darren Griffiths, John Parrott, Eluned Griffiths, Lesley Powell, William Gruffydd, Llyr Huws Ramsay, Nick Hedges, Mike Roberts, Aled Hutt, Jane Sandbach, Antoinette Jenkins, Bethan Williams, Kirsty Jones, Alun Ffred Jones, Ann Jones, Carwyn Jones, Elin Lewis, Huw Mewies, Sandy Morgan, Julie Neagle, Lynne Price, Gwyn R. Rathbone, Jenny Rees, David Sargeant, Carl Skates, Kenneth Thomas, Gwenda Thomas, Simon Watson, Joyce Whittle, Lindsay Wood, Leanne

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant. Amendment not agreed.

Cafodd gwelliant 2 ei ddad-ddethol. Amendment 2 was deselected.

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Gwelliant 3 i NDM5059: O blaid 12, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 39. Amendment 3 to NDM5059: For 12, Abstain 0, Against 39.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn: The following Members voted for: The following Members voted against:

Asghar, Mohammad Antoniw, Mick Burns, Angela Black, Peter Davies, Andrew R.T. Chapman, Christine Davies, Byron Cuthbert, Jeff Davies, Paul Davies, Alun Davies, Suzy Davies, Jocelyn Finch-Saunders, Janet Davies, Keith George, Russell Drakeford, Mark Graham, William Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord Millar, Darren Evans, Rebecca Roberts, Aled Gething, Vaughan Sandbach, Antoinette Gregory, Janice Griffiths, John Griffiths, Lesley Hart, Edwina Hedges, Mike Hutt, Jane Isherwood, Mark Jenkins, Bethan Jones, Ann Jones, Carwyn Jones, Elin Jones, Ieuan Wyn Mewies, Sandy Morgan, Julie Neagle, Lynne Parrott, Eluned Powell, William Price, Gwyn R. Rathbone, Jenny Rees, David Sargeant, Carl Skates, Kenneth Thomas, Gwenda Thomas, Rhodri Glyn Watson, Joyce Whittle, Lindsay Williams, Kirsty Wood, Leanne

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant. Amendment not agreed.

Gwelliant 4 NDM5059: O blaid 43, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 8. Amendment 4 NDM5059: For 43, Abstain 0, Against 8.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn: The following Members voted for: The following Members voted against:

Andrews, Leighton Davies, Jocelyn Antoniw, Mick Gruffydd, Llyr Huws Asghar, Mohammad Jenkins, Bethan Black, Peter Jones, Alun Ffred Burns, Angela Jones, Elin Chapman, Christine Thomas, Simon Cuthbert, Jeff Whittle, Lindsay Davies, Alun Wood, Leanne Davies, Andrew R.T.

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Davies, Byron Davies, Paul Drakeford, Mark Evans, Rebecca Finch-Saunders, Janet George, Russell Gething, Vaughan Graham, William Gregory, Janice Griffiths, John Griffiths, Lesley Hedges, Mike Hutt, Jane Isherwood, Mark Jones, Ann Jones, Carwyn Lewis, Huw Mewies, Sandy Millar, Darren Morgan, Julie Neagle, Lynne Parrott, Eluned Powell, William Price, Gwyn R. Ramsay, Nick Rathbone, Jenny Rees, David Roberts, Aled Sandbach, Antoinette Sargeant, Carl Skates, Kenneth Thomas, Gwenda Watson, Joyce Williams,

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant. Amendment agreed.

Cafodd gwelliant 5 ei ddad-ddethol. Amendment 5 was deselected.

Gwelliant 6 i NDM5059: O blaid 51, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 0. Amendment 6 to NDM5059: For 51, Abstain 0, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: The following Members voted for:

Andrews, Leighton Antoniw, Mick Asghar, Mohammad Black, Peter Burns, Angela Chapman, Christine Cuthbert, Jeff Davies, Alun Davies, Andrew R.T. Davies, Byron Davies, Jocelyn Davies, Paul Drakeford, Mark Evans, Rebecca Finch-Saunders, Janet George, Russell Gething, Vaughan Graham, William

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Gregory, Janice Griffiths, John Griffiths, Lesley Gruffydd, Llyr Huws Hedges, Mike Hutt, Jane Isherwood, Mark Jenkins, Bethan Jones, Alun Ffred Jones, Ann Jones, Carwyn Jones, Elin Lewis, Huw Mewies, Sandy Millar, Darren Morgan, Julie Neagle, Lynne Parrott, Eluned Powell, William Price, Gwyn R. Ramsay, Nick Rathbone, Jenny Rees, David Roberts, Aled Sandbach, Antoinette Sargeant, Carl Skates, Kenneth Thomas, Gwenda Thomas, Simon Watson, Joyce Whittle, Lindsay Williams, Kirsty Wood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant. Amendment agreed.

Gwelliant 7 i NDM5059: O blaid 17, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 34. Amendment 7 to NDM5059: For 17, Abstain 0, Against 34.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn: The following Members voted for: The following Members voted against:

Asghar, Mohammad Andrews, Leighton Black, Peter Antoniw, Mick Burns, Angela Chapman, Christine Davies, Andrew R.T. Cuthbert, Jeff Davies, Byron Davies, Alun Davies, Paul Davies, Jocelyn Finch-Saunders, Janet Drakeford, Mark George, Russell Evans, Rebecca Graham, William Gething, Vaughan Isherwood, Mark Gregory, Janice Millar, Darren Griffiths, John Parrott, Eluned Griffiths, Lesley Powell, William Gruffydd, Llyr Huws Ramsay, Nick Hedges, Mike Roberts, Aled Hutt, Jane Sandbach, Antoinette Jenkins, Bethan Williams, Kirsty Jones, Alun Ffred Jones, Ann Jones, Carwyn Jones, Elin Lewis, Huw Mewies, Sandy Morgan, Julie

132 10/10/2012

Neagle, Lynne Price, Gwyn R. Rathbone, Jenny Rees, David Sargeant, Carl Skates, Kenneth Thomas, Gwenda Thomas, Simon Watson, Joyce Whittle, Lindsay Wood, Leanne

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant. Amendment not agreed.

Gwelliant 8 i NDM5059: O blaid 51, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 0. Amendment 8 to NDM5059: For 51, Abstain 0, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: The following Members voted for:

Andrews, Leighton Antoniw, Mick Asghar, Mohammad Black, Peter Burns, Angela Chapman, Christine Cuthbert, Jeff Davies, Alun Davies, Andrew R.T. Davies, Byron Davies, Jocelyn Davies, Paul Drakeford, Mark Evans, Rebecca Finch-Saunders, Janet George, Russell Gething, Vaughan Graham, William Gregory, Janice Griffiths, John Griffiths, Lesley Gruffydd, Llyr Huws Hedges, Mike Hutt, Jane Isherwood, Mark Jenkins, Bethan Jones, Alun Ffred Jones, Ann Jones, Carwyn Jones, Elin Lewis, Huw Mewies, Sandy Millar, Darren Morgan, Julie Neagle, Lynne Parrott, Eluned Powell, William Price, Gwyn R. Ramsay, Nick Rathbone, Jenny Rees, David Roberts, Aled Sandbach, Antoinette Sargeant, Carl Skates, Kenneth

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Thomas, Gwenda Thomas, Simon Watson, Joyce Whittle, Lindsay Williams, Kirsty Wood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant. Amendment agreed.

Gwelliant 9 i NDM5059: O blaid 51, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 0. Amendment 9 to NDM5059: For 51, Abstain 0, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: The following Members voted for:

Andrews, Leighton Antoniw, Mick Asghar, Mohammad Black, Peter Burns, Angela Chapman, Christine Cuthbert, Jeff Davies, Alun Davies, Andrew R.T. Davies, Byron Davies, Jocelyn Davies, Paul Drakeford, Mark Evans, Rebecca Finch-Saunders, Janet George, Russell Gething, Vaughan Graham, William Gregory, Janice Griffiths, John Griffiths, Lesley Gruffydd, Llyr Huws Hedges, Mike Hutt, Jane Isherwood, Mark Jenkins, Bethan Jones, Alun Ffred Jones, Ann Jones, Carwyn Jones, Elin Lewis, Huw Mewies, Sandy Millar, Darren Morgan, Julie Neagle, Lynne Parrott, Eluned Powell, William Price, Gwyn R. Ramsay, Nick Rathbone, Jenny Rees, David Roberts, Aled Sandbach, Antoinette Sargeant, Carl Skates, Kenneth Thomas, Gwenda Thomas, Simon Watson, Joyce Whittle, Lindsay

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Williams, Kirsty Wood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant. Amendment agreed.

Gwelliant 10 i NDM5059: O blaid 51, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 0. Amendment 10 to NDM5059: For 51, Abstain 0, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: The following Members voted for:

Andrews, Leighton Antoniw, Mick Asghar, Mohammad Black, Peter Burns, Angela Chapman, Christine Cuthbert, Jeff Davies, Alun Davies, Andrew R.T. Davies, Byron Davies, Jocelyn Davies, Paul Drakeford, Mark Evans, Rebecca Finch-Saunders, Janet George, Russell Gething, Vaughan Graham, William Gregory, Janice Griffiths, John Griffiths, Lesley Gruffydd, Llyr Huws Hedges, Mike Hutt, Jane Isherwood, Mark Jenkins, Bethan Jones, Alun Ffred Jones, Ann Jones, Carwyn Jones, Elin Lewis, Huw Mewies, Sandy Millar, Darren Morgan, Julie Neagle, Lynne Parrott, Eluned Powell, William Price, Gwyn R. Ramsay, Nick Rathbone, Jenny Rees, David Roberts, Aled Sandbach, Antoinette Sargeant, Carl Skates, Kenneth Thomas, Gwenda Thomas, Simon Watson, Joyce Whittle, Lindsay Williams, Kirsty Wood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

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Amendment agreed.

Gwelliant 11 i NDM5059: O blaid 51, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 0. Amendment 11 to NDM5059: For 51, Abstain 0, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: The following Members voted for:

Andrews, Leighton Antoniw, Mick Asghar, Mohammad Black, Peter Burns, Angela Chapman, Christine Cuthbert, Jeff Davies, Alun Davies, Andrew R.T. Davies, Byron Davies, Jocelyn Davies, Paul Drakeford, Mark Evans, Rebecca Finch-Saunders, Janet George, Russell Gething, Vaughan Graham, William Gregory, Janice Griffiths, John Griffiths, Lesley Gruffydd, Llyr Huws Hedges, Mike Hutt, Jane Isherwood, Mark Jenkins, Bethan Jones, Alun Ffred Jones, Ann Jones, Carwyn Jones, Elin Lewis, Huw Mewies, Sandy Millar, Darren Morgan, Julie Neagle, Lynne Parrott, Eluned Powell, William Price, Gwyn R. Ramsay, Nick Rathbone, Jenny Rees, David Roberts, Aled Sandbach, Antoinette Sargeant, Carl Skates, Kenneth Thomas, Gwenda Thomas, Simon Watson, Joyce Whittle, Lindsay Williams, Kirsty Wood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant. Amendment agreed.

Cynnig NDM5059 fel y’i diwygiwyd: Motion NDM5059 as amended:

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Mae Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru: The National Assembly for Wales:

1. Yn nodi pwysigrwydd masnachfraint Prif 1. Notes the importance of the West Coast Reilffordd Arfordir y Gorllewin i Main Line (WCML) franchise to rail services wasanaethau rheilffyrdd yng ngogledd in north Wales and recognises the UK Cymru ac yn cydnabod blerwch Llywodraeth Government’s incompetence in dealing with y DU wrth ddelio â masnachfraint Prif the recent WCML franchise. Reilffordd Arfordir y Gorllewin yn ddiweddar.

2. Yn nodi bod gan Lywodraeth y DU 2. Notes that the UK Government retains a swyddogaeth gydlofnodi o hyd ym joint-signatory role in the Wales and Borders masnachfraint Cymru a’r Gororau. franchise.

3. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i: 3. Calls on the Welsh Government to: a) ceisio cyfrifoldeb llawn dros adnewyddu a) seek full responsibility for the Wales and masnachfraint Cymru a’r Gororau; Borders franchise renewal; b) ceisio datganoli’r gyllideb a’r pwerau b) seek devolution of rail infrastructure dros y seilwaith rheilffyrdd; ac powers and budget; and c) archwilio’r holl ddewisiadau ar gyfer c) explore all the options for the Wales and masnachfraint Cymru a’r Gororau gan Borders franchise including a potential not- gynnwys model busnes di-elw posibl. for-profit business model. ch) yn gweithio gyda Llywodraeth y DU i d) work with the UK Government to secure sicrhau bod prif reilffordd gogledd Cymru yn electrification of the North Wales mainline by cael ei thrydaneiddio erbyn diwedd Cyfnod the end of Control Period 6. Rheoli 6.

4. Yn nodi pa mor bwysig yw bod 4. Notes the importance of the Welsh Llywodraeth Cymru yn defnyddio’r dulliau Government utilising the tools at its disposal sydd ar gael iddi i wneud y mwyaf o to seize the benefits of rail electrification. fanteision trydaneiddio’r rheilffyrdd.

5. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i 5. Calls on the Welsh Government to engage ymgysylltu â Llywodraeth y DU ynghylch y with the UK Government about potential posibilrwydd o drydaneiddio’r rheilffyrdd future electrification of rail lines in north yng ngogledd Cymru yn y dyfodol. Wales.

6. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i 6. Calls on the Welsh government to archwilio’r posibilrwydd o ddefnyddio’r investigate using the tender process to secure broses dendro i sicrhau buddsoddiad yn investment in the quality of rolling stock and ansawdd cerbydau a’r seilwaith. infrastructure.

7. Yn credu bod Prif Lein Arfordir y 7. Believes the West Coast Main Line and the Gorllewin a’r Lein HS2 newydd yn hanfodol new HS2 Line are vital in improving services ar gyfer gwella gwasanaethau i ranbarth to the North Wales region and calls on the gogledd Cymru ac yn galw ar Lywodraeth Welsh Government to work with the UK Cymru i weithio gyda Llywodraeth y DU i Government to ensure that services to North sicrhau bod gwasanaethau i ogledd Cymru Wales are strengthened in the future. yn cael eu hatgyfnerthu yn y dyfodol.

Cynnig NDM5059 fel y’i diwygiwyd: O blaid 46, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 5.

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Motion NDM5059 as amended: For 46, Abstain 0, Against 5.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn: The following Members voted for: The following Members voted against:

Andrews, Leighton Black, Peter Antoniw, Mick Parrott, Eluned Asghar, Mohammad Powell, William Burns, Angela Roberts, Aled Chapman, Christine Williams, Kirsty Cuthbert, Jeff Davies, Alun Davies, Andrew R.T. Davies, Byron Davies, Jocelyn Davies, Paul Drakeford, Mark Evans, Rebecca Finch-Saunders, Janet George, Russell Gething, Vaughan Graham, William Gregory, Janice Griffiths, John Griffiths, Lesley Gruffydd, Llyr Huws Hedges, Mike Hutt, Jane Isherwood, Mark Jenkins, Bethan Jones, Alun Ffred Jones, Ann Jones, Carwyn Jones, Elin Lewis, Huw Mewies, Sandy Millar, Darren Morgan, Julie Neagle, Lynne Price, Gwyn R. Ramsay, Nick Rathbone, Jenny Rees, David Sandbach, Antoinette Sargeant, Carl Skates, Kenneth Thomas, Gwenda Thomas, Simon Watson, Joyce Whittle, Lindsay Wood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd cynnig NDM5059 fel y’i diwygiwyd. Motion NDM5059 as amended agreed.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Will Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. A wnaiff yr those Members who are leaving the Chamber Aelodau hynny sy’n gadael y Siambr wneud please do so quickly and quietly? hynny’n gyflym ac yn dawel os gwelwch yn dda?

5.30 p.m.

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Dadl Fer Short Debate

Yr Achos dros Gadw’r Bwrdd Cyflogau Amaethyddol yng Nghymru The Case for Retaining the Agricultural Wages Board in Wales

Mick Antoniw: I am very grateful for the Mick Antoniw: Rwyf yn ddiolchgar am y opportunity that this debate provides to cyfle y mae’r ddadl hon yn ei roi i present the case in support of retaining the gyflwyno’r achos o blaid cadw’r Bwrdd Agricultural Wages Board in Wales. The Cyflogau Amaethyddol yng Nghymru. Bydd Deputy Minister for Agriculture, Food, y Dirprwy Weinidog Amaethyddiaeth, Bwyd, Fisheries and European Programmes, and Pysgodfeydd a Rhaglenni Ewropeaidd, a’r Members, will have seen the detailed report Aelodau, wedi gweld yr adroddiad manwl a that I have prepared, which sets outs the full baratowyd gennyf, sy’n mynegi’r achos yn case. Therefore, I will only focus on some of llawn. Felly, byddaf yn canolbwyntio’n unig the key principles and basic facts to allow ar rai o’r egwyddorion a ffeithiau allweddol other Members to contribute to this important sylfaenol i ganiatáu i Aelodau eraill gyfrannu debate, namely Rebecca Evans, William at y ddadl bwysig hon, sef Rebecca Evans, Powell, Antoinette Sandbach, Vaughan William Powell, Antoinette Sandbach, Gething, Joyce Watson and Llyr Huws Vaughan Gething, Joyce Watson a Llyr Gruffydd. Huws Gruffydd.

In the next week or so, the UK Government Yn ystod yr wythnos neu ddwy nesaf, bydd will take the final decision on the final steps Llywodraeth y DU yn gwneud y to abolish the Agricultural Wages Board. penderfyniad terfynol ar y camau terfynol i Scotland has already chosen to retain it, as ddiddymu’r Bwrdd Cyflogau Amaethyddol. has the Northern Ireland Assembly. I regret Mae’r Alban eisoes wedi dewis ei gadw, fel that there is nothing that we can do to help mae Cynulliad Gogledd Iwerddon. Rwyf yn the English agricultural workers, other than gresynu nad oes unrhyw beth y gallwn ei to hope that the UK coalition Government wneud i helpu gweithwyr amaethyddol will see sense and not be the only nation to Lloegr, ar wahân i obeithio y bydd pull out of the Agricultural Wages Board Llywodraeth glymblaid y DU yn gweld arrangements. However, I strongly believe synnwyr ac na fyddant yr unig genedl i dynnu that this Assembly can retain an Agricultural allan o drefniadau’r Bwrdd Cyflogau Wages Board in some form to carry on the Amaethyddol. Fodd bynnag, credaf yn gryf y function of collective regulation of minimum gall y Cynulliad hwn gadw Bwrdd Cyflogau terms and conditions for almost 14,000 Amaethyddol ar ryw ffurf i barhau â’r Welsh farm workers, and for the benefit of swyddogaeth o reoleiddio ar y cyd delerau ac the agricultural industry in Wales. amodau sylfaenol ar gyfer bron i 14,000 o weithwyr fferm yng Nghymru, ac er budd y diwydiant amaethyddol yng Nghymru.

The AWB has existed since 1948, and it not Mae’r bwrdd wedi bodoli ers 1948, ac nid yn only regulates wages but sets minimum unig y mae’n rheoleiddio cyflogau, ond yn standards for certain terms and conditions, gosod safonau gofynnol ar gyfer telerau ac such as overtime, night premium, on-call amodau penodol, fel goramser, premiwm nos, allowances, accommodation deductions, sick lwfansau ar-alwad, didyniadau llety, tâl pay, and, most importantly, training and salwch, ac, yn bwysicaf oll, hyfforddiant a skills. In effect, the board sets a minimum sgiliau. Mewn gwirionedd, mae’r bwrdd yn living wage and terms and conditions for gosod isafswm cyflog byw a thelerau ac agricultural workers and for rural amodau ar gyfer gweithwyr amaethyddol ac i communities, where we have already gymunedau gwledig, lle’r ydym eisoes wedi acknowledged that poverty is a significant cydnabod bod tlodi yn fater o bwys. Mae issue. It also prevents a race to the bottom by hefyd yn atal ras i’r gwaelod gan gyflogwyr,

139 10/10/2012 employers, which is what would happen if it a dyna beth fyddai’n digwydd pe bai’n cael ei was replaced by the national minimum wage, ddisodli gan yr isafswm cyflog cenedlaethol, as seems to be intended. It is perhaps natural fel yr ymddengys sydd wedi’i fwriadu. that the agricultural workers section of Unite Mae’n naturiol efallai bod yr adran the Union wants to retain the protection gweithwyr amaethyddol o Unite the Union offered by the AWB. After all, the forerunner eisiau cadw’r diogelwch a gynigir gan y of the agricultural section, the Agricultural bwrdd. Wedi’r cyfan, roedd rhagflaenydd yr and Allied Workers Union—known at the adran amaethyddol, Undeb y Gweithwyr time as ‘the aggies’—was instrumental in Amaethyddol a Pherthynol—oedd yn hysbys setting up the AWB in 1948. ar y pryd fel ‘yr aggies’—yn allweddol wrth sefydlu’r bwrdd ym 1948.

I also rely on the support of Wales Young Rwyf hefyd yn dibynnu ar gefnogaeth Farmers Clubs, one of the largest youth Clybiau Ffermwyr Ifanc Cymru, un o’r organisations in Wales, which represents the mudiadau ieuenctid mwyaf yng Nghymru, future of agriculture in Wales. As it has sy’n cynrychioli dyfodol amaethyddiaeth yng stated, one of the most important things about Nghymru. Fel y mae wedi’i ddatgan, un o’r the AWB is its provision of housing, holiday pethau pwysicaf am y bwrdd yw ei and sickness terms and conditions. Without ddarpariaeth o ran tai, telerau ac amodau the board, pay and conditions would be hit, gwyliau a salwch. Heb y bwrdd, byddai and cuts in wages would deter young people cyflogau ac amodau yn cael eu taro, a byddai from entering the industry. It goes on to say toriadau mewn cyflogau yn atal pobl ifanc that many young workers are being exploited rhag dod i mewn i’r diwydiant. Mae’n mynd by farmers because they are unaware that ymlaen i ddweud bod llawer o weithwyr provisions exist to protect them. ifanc yn cael eu hecsbloetio gan ffermwyr gan nad ydynt yn ymwybodol bod darpariaethau’n bodoli i’w gwarchod.

The Farmers Union of Wales also opposes Mae Undeb Amaethwyr Cymru hefyd yn the abolition of the AWB. At this lunchtime’s gwrthwynebu diddymu’r bwrdd. Yng press conference and briefing, the union nghynhadledd a briffio’r wasg amser cinio spoke very strongly in support of the board’s heddiw, siaradodd yr undeb yn gryf iawn o retention. It says that the majority of its blaid cadw’r bwrdd. Mae’n dweud bod y members still consider the Agricultural rhan fwyaf o’i aelodau yn dal i ystyried y Wages Board to be the most effective body to Bwrdd Cyflogau Amaethyddol i fod y corff determine pay and conditions of service that mwyaf effeithiol i bennu tâl ac amodau reflect the unique requirements of the gwasanaeth sy’n adlewyrchu gofynion agricultural industry in Wales. The FUW unigryw’r diwydiant amaethyddol yng went on to say that because many farms in Nghymru. Aeth Undeb Amaethwyr Cymru Wales are run with relatively few staff, the ymlaen i ddweud, oherwydd bod llawer o AWB is considered to be an important means ffermydd yng Nghymru yn cael eu rhedeg of avoiding potential conflict and lengthy gan gymharol ychydig o staff, mae’r bwrdd negotiations with individual staff. Therefore, yn cael ei ystyried i fod yn ffordd bwysig o is it not ironic that the UK Government wants osgoi gwrthdaro posibl a thrafodaethau hir to abolish the AWB in the name of gyda staff unigol. Felly, onid yw’n eironig deregulation, but will actually increase the bod Llywodraeth y DU am ddiddymu’r burden on many farmers? bwrdd yn enw dadreoleiddio, ond mewn gwirionedd byddant yn cynyddu’r baich ar lawer o ffermwyr?

I believe that it is possible to retain a wages Rwy’n credu ei bod yn bosibl i gadw bwrdd board or the functions of the AWB in some cyflogau neu swyddogaethau’r bwrdd ar ryw form in Wales at minimal cost. Let us not ffurf yng Nghymru ar gost isel. Gadewch inni forget that the cost last year of running the beidio ag anghofio mai cost y llynedd o redeg

140 10/10/2012 entire Agriculture Wages Board in England y Bwrdd Cyflogau Amaethyddol cyfan yng and Wales was £57,000. In Northern Ireland, Nghymru a Lloegr oedd £57,000. Yng it was £30,000. It also provides a very Ngogledd Iwerddon, roedd yn £30,000. Mae considerable benefit to farm workers, farmers hefyd yn rhoi budd sylweddol iawn i and the agricultural sector as a whole. weithwyr fferm, ffermwyr a’r sector Therefore, we have an opportunity in Wales amaethyddol yn ei gyfanrwydd. Felly, mae to do something different, not for the sake of gennym gyfle yng Nghymru i wneud difference but because, as I strongly believe, rhywbeth gwahanol, nid er mwyn bod yn it is the right thing to do in Wales for the wahanol, ond oherwydd, fel yr wyf yn agricultural sector and for agricultural credu’n gryf, mai dyma’r peth iawn i’w workers themselves. wneud yng Nghymru ar gyfer y sector amaethyddol ac ar gyfer gweithwyr amaethyddol eu hunain.

Rebecca Evans: I am grateful to Mick Rebecca Evans: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i Antoniw for bringing forward this important Mick Antoniw am gyflwyno’r ddadl bwysig debate today. I understand that the Deputy hon heddiw. Deallaf y bydd y Dirprwy Minister will be meeting David Heath, the Weinidog yn cwrdd â David Heath, UK farming Minister, to discuss the Gweinidog Ffermio’r DU, i drafod y Bwrdd Agricultural Wages Board next week. I really Cyflogau Amaethyddol yr wythnos nesaf. hope that David Heath will stick to his view Rwy’n gobeithio y bydd David Heath yn of 2000, when he signed an early day motion cadw at ei farn o 2000, pan lofnododd calling on the UK Government to retain the gynnig-cynnar-yn-y-dydd yn galw ar Agricultural Wages Board because its Lywodraeth y DU i gadw’r Bwrdd Cyflogau abolition would: Amaethyddol oherwydd byddai ei ddiddymu yn:

‘impoverish the rural working class, tlodi’r dosbarth gweithiol gwledig, gan exacerbating social deprivation and the waethygu amddifadedd cymdeithasol a’r undesirable indicators associated with social dangosyddion annymunol sy’n gysylltiedig exclusion’. ag allgau cymdeithasol.

Since his appointment, the new Secretary of Ers ei benodiad, mae’r Ysgrifennydd State for Wales, David Jones, has spoken of Gwladol newydd dros Gymru, David Jones, his concern about the declining number of wedi siarad am ei bryder am y gostyngiad yn people working the land and the fact that nifer y bobl sy’n gweithio ar y tir a’r ffaith y employment can be hard to come by in rural gall cyflogaeth fod yn anodd ei gael mewn areas. He said that there have been school ardaloedd gwledig. Dywedodd y bu cau closures in his constituency as a result of ysgolion yn ei etholaeth o ganlyniad i bobl yn people leaving rural Wales to look for work gadael cefn gwlad Cymru i chwilio am waith and has spoken out about the damage that has ac mae wedi mynegi’i farn am y difrod sydd been done to the Welsh language and the wedi cael ei wneud i’r iaith Gymraeg a’r Welsh culture as a result. The abolition of the diwylliant Cymreig o ganlyniad. Bydd Agricultural Wages Board can only threaten diddymu’r Bwrdd Cyflogau Amaethyddol yn rural Wales further, so I take this opportunity bygwth Cymru wledig ymhellach, felly to challenge the Secretary of State for Wales hoffwn fanteisio ar y cyfle i herio to fight the corner of Welsh agricultural Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru i frwydro o workers in Westminster by opposing the blaid gweithwyr amaethyddol Cymru yn San abolition and seeking to ensure that Steffan gan wrthwynebu’r diddymu a cheisio agricultural work pays. sicrhau bod gwaith amaethyddol yn talu.

William Powell: I would like to thank Mick William Powell: Hoffwn ddiolch i Mick Antoniw very much for bringing forward this Antoniw yn fawr iawn am gyflwyno’r ddadl important debate today. The farming bwysig hon heddiw. Mae’r diwydiant

141 10/10/2012 industry, as we all know, plays a critical role ffermio, fel y gwyddom oll, yn chwarae rhan in the fabric of Welsh life. Over the past 60 hanfodol yng ngwead bywyd Cymru. Dros y years, the AWB has provided the farming 60 mlynedd diwethaf, mae’r bwrdd wedi industry with a strong set of guiding darparu cyfres gadarn o egwyddorion principles when it comes to pay structures arweiniol i’r diwydiant ffermio o ran and employee benefits, as Mick has outlined. strwythurau cyflog a buddiannau gweithwyr, While acknowledging that such arrangements fel y mae Mick wedi ei amlinellu. Tra’n cannot always be exempt from reform—and cydnabod na ellir eithrio trefniadau o’r fath we know what is coming up the track very rhag eu diwygio bob amser—ac rydym yn shortly—I think it is worth our exploring the gwybod beth sy’n dod tuag atom yn fuan possibility that this area should be subject to iawn—credaf ei bod yn werth inni the devolution settlement enjoyed in archwilio’r posibilrwydd y dylai’r maes hwn Northern Ireland and Scotland. That may fod yn ddarostyngedig i’r setliad datganoli a well be work for the Silk commission, and geir yng Ngogledd Iwerddon a’r Alban. we are open to taking that issue further Efallai’n wir mai gwaith i gomisiwn Silk yw forward. However, the AWB has done hynny, ac rydym yn agored i ystyried y mater sterling work, and that is reflected in the hwnnw ymhellach. Fodd bynnag, mae’r comments that have been made today. I look bwrdd wedi gwneud gwaith rhagorol, ac forward to the contribution of other adlewyrchir hynny yn y sylwadau sydd Members. wedi’u gwneud heddiw. Edrychaf ymlaen at gyfraniad Aelodau eraill.

Antoinette Sandbach: I, too, thank Mick Antoinette Sandbach: Rwyf i, hefyd, yn Antoniw for giving me the time to speak in diolch i Mick Antoniw am roi’r amser i mi i this debate. However, I am concerned that the siarad yn y ddadl hon. Fodd bynnag, rwyf yn report is an example of scaremongering. pryderu bod yr adroddiad yn enghraifft o Agricultural workers are very much valued godi bwganod. Mae gweithwyr amaethyddol by their employers, and this scaremongering yn cael eu gwerthfawrogi’n fawr iawn gan is perhaps typical of Welsh Labour, which eu cyflogwyr, ac mae’r codi bwganod hwn shows that it is not prepared to trust farmers. efallai yn nodweddiadol o Lafur Cymru, sy’n It may well be that, if the board is removed in dangos nad yw’n barod i ymddiried mewn England, highly skilled and experienced ffermwyr. Mae’n bosibl, os bydd y bwrdd yn farmworkers will be attracted over the border cael ei ddileu yn Lloegr, y bydd gweithwyr by much higher rates of pay. There is an fferm medrus a phrofiadol yn cael eu denu opportunity to take away unnecessary dros y ffin gan gyfraddau llawer uwch o obstacles from small business employers that gyflog. Mae cyfle i gael gwared ar rwystrau is not being taken. It would appear that it is diangen i gyflogwyr busnesau bach nad yw’n an attempt to introduce regional pay for an cael ei gymryd. Byddai’n ymddangos i fod yn element of the private sector in Wales. ymgais i gyflwyno tâl rhanbarthol ar gyfer Labour professes not to want to apply elfen o’r sector preifat yng Nghymru. Mae regional pay to the public sector, but, Llafur yn honni nad ydynt yn dymuno somehow, that is acceptable for agricultural gweithredu tâl rhanbarthol yn y sector workers. There are claims that unscrupulous cyhoeddus, ond, rywsut, mae hynny’n farmers will indulge in a race to the bottom. dderbyniol ar gyfer gweithwyr amaethyddol. That is not based on any evidence. There may Mae honiadau y bydd ffermwyr diegwyddor well be a case for review at a later date— yn cymryd rhan mewn ras i’r gwaelod. Nid yw hynny wedi’i seilio ar unrhyw dystiolaeth. Efallai’n wir y bydd achos ar gyfer adolygiad yn ddiweddarach—

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. You Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Rydych wedi are now well over your minute. siarad yn llawer hirach na’ch munud.

Antoinette Sandbach: —but this is not Antoinette Sandbach: —ond nid yw hyn yn

142 10/10/2012 based on the evidence. seiliedig ar y dystiolaeth.

Vaughan Gething: I welcome the Vaughan Gething: Croesawaf y cyfle i opportunity to speak briefly on this, siarad yn fyr ar hyn, yn enwedig gan fy mod particularly as I am a former seasonal worker yn gyn weithiwr tymhorol a dderbyniodd who received a wage for fruit picking as a gyflog am gasglu ffrwythau o ganlyniad i’r result of the Agricultural Wages Board in Bwrdd Cyflogau Amaethyddol yn Lloegr. England. The board has provided real Mae’r bwrdd wedi darparu diogelwch go protection and minimum standards—not iawn a safonau gofynnol—nid uchafswm maximum standards, but minimum safonau, ond safonau gofynnol—ar gyfer standards—for agricultural workers. As you gweithwyr amaethyddol. Fel y dywedwch, say, it is cheap to run and maintain, providing mae’n rhad i’w redeg a’i gynnal, gan real certainty for workers and employers. ddarparu sicrwydd go iawn i weithwyr a That is why there is a broad coalition in chyflogwyr. Dyna pam y mae cynghrair eang favour of maintaining something like the o blaid cynnal rhywbeth fel y bwrdd hwn yng AWB here in Wales. I also welcome the fact Nghymru. Rwyf hefyd yn croesawu’r ffaith that the Welsh Government helped to bod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi helpu i sicrhau guarantee that English workers receive a pay bod gweithwyr Lloegr yn derbyn codiad rise this October. Because of our position cyflog ym mis Hydref. Oherwydd ein sefyllfa here in Wales, the Tories and the Lib Dems yma yng Nghymru, ni allai’r Torïaid a’r could not abolish the wages board across the Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ddiddymu’r rest of the UK. I would encourage the Deputy bwrdd cyflogau ar draws gweddill y DU. Minister to reject the arguments of Antoinette Byddwn yn annog y Dirprwy Weinidog i Sandbach and make all possible efforts to see wrthod dadleuon Antoinette Sandbach a whether we can maintain or retain something gwneud pob ymdrech bosibl i weld a allwn like the AWB in Wales. gynnal neu gadw rhywbeth fel y bwrdd yng Nghymru.

Joyce Watson: I thank Mick Antoniw for all Joyce Watson: Diolch i Mick Antoniw am the work that he has done. I was in the same yr holl waith y mae wedi’i wneud. Roeddwn i room as he was earlier today with the yn yr un ystafell ag ef yn gynharach heddiw Farmers Union of Wales and others—people gydag Undeb Amaethwyr Cymru ac eraill— who own farms, who depend on farms, and pobl sy’n berchen ar ffermydd, sy’n dibynnu who live and work on farms for their bread ar ffermydd, ac sy’n byw ac yn gweithio ar and butter. That is what we are coming to ffermydd am eu bara menyn. At hynny’r here. It was them, not us, who were saying ydym yn dod yma. Nhw, dim ni, oedd yn that without the Agricultural Wages Board, dweud eu bod, heb y Bwrdd Cyflogau they were worried about who would speak up Amaethyddol, yn poeni am bwy fyddai’n for them and who would represent them at siarad ar eu rhan ac a fyddai’n eu cynrychioli arbitration. They were afraid of getting into a mewn cyflafareddiad. Maent yn ofni mynd i situation where, without that arbitration, mewn i sefyllfa lle, heb y cyflafareddiad employer and employee would be pitted hwnnw, byddai cyflogwr a’r gweithiwr yn against each other while expecting them to cystadlu yn erbyn ei gilydd tra’n disgwyl work side by side the very next day, thus iddynt weithio ochr yn ochr y diwrnod breaking down the very fabric of trust that we canlynol, gan ddistrywio holl sylfaen yr have heard about and not allowing those ymddiriedaeth yr ydym wedi clywed amdani relationships to continue. The other important a pheidio â gadael i’r berthynas honno point is that they insisted that, without that barhau. Y pwynt pwysig arall yw eu bod yn protection, they would go to the minimum mynnu, heb y diogelwch hwnnw, y byddent wage, thus removing from the local economy yn mynd i’r isafswm cyflog, gan gael gwared all the additional money that now exists, thus â’r holl arian ychwanegol sydd bellach yn having an even greater impact on those bodoli o’r economi leol, a thrwy hynny gael communities that depend on farm workers effaith fwy hyd yn oed ar y cymunedau spending their money there. hynny sy’n dibynnu ar weld gweithwyr fferm

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yn gwario eu harian yno.

Llyr Huws Gruffydd: Rwy’n adnabod Llyr Huws Gruffydd: I know dozens of dwsinau o bobl ifanc sydd am ddatblygu young people who are not from farming gyrfa yn y sector amaethyddol nad ydynt o families but who want to develop a career in deuluoedd fferm ond sy’n sicr yn awyddus i the agricultural sector and are eager to reach gyrraedd y pwynt o fod yn berchnogion tir the point of owning land or owning their own neu fferm eu hunain yn y dyfodol. Mae’r farm in the future. These young people take rheini yn cymryd cysur mawr o’r ffaith, drwy comfort from the fact that, in working in the weithio yn y sector ar hyn o bryd, fod sector at present, standards, terms, conditions safonau, telerau, amodau a chyflogau yn cael and wages are protected by the AWB. I eu hamddiffyn gan y bwrdd. Credaf y byddai would have thought that doing away with the gwneud i ffwrdd â’r bwrdd yn ychwanegu board would create another barrier for many rhwystr arall i nifer o bobl ifanc, fel yr ydym young people, as we have heard from young wedi’i glywed yn barod gan gynrychiolwyr farmers’ representatives in evidence ffermwyr ifanc yn y dystiolaeth sydd wedi’i submitted. It would create an additional rhoi gerbron. Bydd yn creu rhwystr barrier for those young people and, as a ychwanegol i’r rheini ac, o ganlyniad, credaf result, I believe that the board should be y dylem amddiffyn y bwrdd. protected.

The Deputy Minister for Agriculture, Y Dirprwy Weinidog Amaethyddiaeth, Food, Fisheries and European Bwyd, Pysgodfeydd a Rhaglenni Programmes (Alun Davies): Like others Ewropeaidd (Alun Davies): Fel eraill y this afternoon, I would like to express my prynhawn yma, hoffwn fynegi fy niolch i gratitude to Mick Antoniw for bringing Mick Antoniw am ddod â’r pwnc gerbron i’w forward this subject for debate this afternoon, drafod y prynhawn yma, a diolch iddo am y and thank him for the work that he has done gwaith y mae wedi ei wneud wrth in producing the report published today and gynhyrchu’r adroddiad a gyhoeddwyd in campaigning on this important matter. heddiw ac mewn ymgyrchu ar y mater Other Members who have contributed to the pwysig hwn. Mae Aelodau eraill sydd wedi debate this afternoon have made good and cyfrannu at y ddadl hon y prynhawn yma fair points, which I hope I will address in wedi gwneud pwyntiau da a theg, yr wyf yn summing up. gobeithio y byddaf yn rhoi sylw iddynt wrth grynhoi.

Antoinette, all of us, on all sides of the Antoinette, mae pob un ohonom, ar bob ochr Chamber, are glad to see you back here, and i’r Siambr, yn falch eich gweld yn ôl yma, ac we pass on our best wishes to you and your rydym yn anfon ein dymuniadau gorau i chi family. However, with regard to the way in a’ch teulu. Fodd bynnag, o ran y ffordd y which you contributed this afternoon, I invite gwnaethoch gyfrannu’r prynhawn yma, yr you—I do not say this very often—to look wyf yn eich gwahodd—dydw i ddim yn over your party leader’s speech this morning. dweud hyn yn aml iawn—i edrych dros araith When the Prime Minister said that arweinydd eich plaid y bore yma. Pan Conservative methods are not just good for ddywedodd y Prif Weinidog nad i’r cryf a’r the strong and successful, but are the best llwyddiannus yn unig y mae dulliau way to help the poor, the weak and the Ceidwadol yn dda, ond mai dyma’r ffordd vulnerable, perhaps that would better reflect orau i helpu’r tlawd, y gwan a’r diamddiffyn, the Welsh Government’s position than the efallai y byddai hynny’n adlewyrchu position taken by the Welsh Conservatives safbwynt Llywodraeth Cymru yn well na’r this afternoon. I invite Conservative safbwynt a gymerwyd gan y Ceidwadwyr Members to reflect on the position that has Cymreig y prynhawn yma. Rwyf yn gwahodd been outlined this afternoon. Aelodau Ceidwadol i fyfyrio ar y sefyllfa a amlinellwyd y prynhawn yma.

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In doing that, I extend to my good and old Wrth wneud hynny, rwyf yn ymestyn friend, Bill Powell, an invitation to join the gwahoddiad i fy ffrind da a hen, Bill Powell, consensus here this afternoon. The Welsh i ymuno â’r consensws yma y prynhawn yma. Liberal party has had, for more than a Mae plaid Ryddfrydol Cymru, am fwy na century, a great tradition of fighting for the chanrif, wedi cael traddodiad gwych o rural working classes and people working on ymladd dros y dosbarth gweithiol gwledig a farms. I know that you believe and uphold phobl sy’n gweithio ar ffermydd. Rwyf yn that tradition strongly, Bill, therefore I hope gwybod eich bod yn credu ac yn cynnal y that you hold to that tradition and history traddodiad cryf, Bill, felly rwyf yn gobeithio during this debate, and that you, too, will join y byddwch yn dal at y traddodiad a’r hanes the consensus across the Chamber that the yn ystod y ddadl hon, a’ch bod chi, hefyd, yn Agricultural Wages Board, while being far ymuno â’r consensws ar draws y Siambr bod from a historical relic, provides real y Bwrdd Cyflogau Amaethyddol, tra ei fod protection to some of the most vulnerable yn bell o fod yn grair hanesyddol, yn darparu workers in our society today. I know that you amddiffyniad gwirioneddol i rai o’r will personally support those people as gweithwyr mwyaf agored i niwed yn ein individuals and as constituents, and I hope cymdeithas heddiw. Rwy’n gwybod y that you will join the consensus to support byddwch yn bersonol yn cefnogi’r bobl them on this issue as well. hynny fel unigolion ac fel etholwyr, ac rwy’n gobeithio y byddwch yn ymuno â’r consensws i’w cefnogi ar y mater hwn yn ogystal.

5.45 p.m.

Members will know from the work that I Bydd Aelodau’n gwybod o’r gwaith yr wyf have done on the ‘Working Smarter’ agenda wedi’i wneud ar ‘Hwyluso’r Drefn’ nad wyf that I am no supporter of unnecessary yn gefnogwr biwrocratiaeth a rheoliadau bureaucracy and regulations. In August last diangen. Ym mis Awst y llynedd, gofynnais year, I asked Gareth Williams, my i Gareth Williams, fy ymgynghorydd independent adviser, to consider and to report annibynnol, ystyried ac adrodd yn ôl i mi ar back to me on whether the regulatory a yw’r fframwaith rheoleiddio sy’n framework that governs agriculture in Wales llywodraethu amaethyddiaeth yng Nghymru was measured and appropriate. The outcome yn cael ei fesur ac yn briodol. Cyhoeddwyd of this review, the ‘Working Smarter’ report, canlyniad yr adolygiad hwn, yr adroddiad was published on 31 January this year. I am ‘Hwyluso’r Drefn’, ar 31 Ionawr eleni. Rwyf fully committed to driving forward the wedi ymrwymo’n llwyr i yrru ymlaen â’r recommendations of that report and I have argymhellion yn yr adroddiad hwnnw, ac asked Gareth to return to work and to review rwyf wedi gofyn i Gareth ddychwelyd i how I have conducted and implemented his weithio ac adolygu sut rwyf wedi cynnal a recommendations. I hope that he will be gweithredu ei argymhellion. Rwyf yn starting work on that process in the next few gobeithio y bydd yn dechrau gweithio ar y weeks. broses honno yn ystod yr wythnosau nesaf.

The latest Government figures suggest that Mae ffigurau diweddaraf y Llywodraeth yn around 13,500 agricultural workers could be awgrymu y gallai tua 13,500 o weithwyr affected by the removal of the AWB in amaethyddol gael eu heffeithio drwy gael Wales. These include some of the most gwared ar y bwrdd yng Nghymru. Mae’r vulnerable and poorly paid workers in Wales. rhain yn cynnwys rhai o’r gweithwyr mwyaf Furthermore, these workers often work long agored i niwed ac sy’n cael y cyflogau isaf or unsociable hours, in difficult conditions. I yng Nghymru. Ar ben hynny, mae’r understand and value the comprehensive gweithwyr yn aml yn gweithio oriau hir neu protection that the AWB provides for anghymdeithasol, mewn amodau anodd. workers, not only safeguarding the level of Rwyf yn deall ac yn gwerthfawrogi’r their wages, but also protecting their working diogelwch cynhwysfawr y mae’r bwrdd yn ei

145 10/10/2012 conditions, such as overtime, holiday and ddarparu i’r gweithwyr, nid yn unig drwy sick pay and training requirements. In ddiogelu lefel eu cyflogau, ond hefyd particular, the AWB sets out appropriate pay amddiffyn eu hamodau gweithio, fel scales above the national minimum wage and goramser, cyflog gwyliau a salwch a provides the basic framework from which gofynion hyfforddi. Yn benodol, mae’r disputes can be resolved. bwrdd yn nodi graddfeydd cyflog priodol uwchben yr isafswm cyflog cenedlaethol ac yn darparu’r fframwaith sylfaenol ar gyfer datrys anghydfodau.

I recognise the point that was made from the Rwy’n cydnabod y pwynt a wnaed o Conservative benches earlier, but the point feinciau’r Ceidwadwyr yn gynharach, ond y that has been made to me time and again by pwynt a wnaed i mi dro ar ôl tro gan farmers across the whole of Wales is that ffermwyr ar draws Cymru gyfan yw eu bod they are glad to have the AWB in existence, yn falch o gael y bwrdd yn bodoli, oherwydd because it creates a framework by which they ei fod yn creu fframwaith lle nad oes rhaid do not have to deal with these matters iddynt ymdrin â’r materion hyn eu hunain. themselves. The point that was made by my Mae’r pwynt a wnaed gan fy ffrind da yn good friend earlier is absolutely clear, namely gynharach yn gwbl glir, sef beth mae’r that in the rush to reduce bureaucracy, what Llywodraeth Geidwadol a’r Democratiaid the Conservative and Liberal Government in Rhyddfrydol yn Llundain yn ei wneud, yn y London is doing is creating additional rhuthr i leihau biwrocratiaeth, yw creu burdens and bureaucracy for individual beichiau a biwrocratiaeth ychwanegol ar farming families. gyfer teuluoedd ffermio unigol.

Antoinette Sandbach: The NFU, which Antoinette Sandbach: Dywed Undeb represents a wide variety of farmers, Cenedlaethol yr Amaethwyr, sy’n cynrychioli including young farmers, says that the AWB amrywiaeth eang o ffermwyr, gan gynnwys does not foster good relations between ffermwyr ifanc, nad yw’r bwrdd yn meithrin employer and employee, but that, instead, it perthynas dda rhwng y cyflogwr a’r is a source of friction and that the normal gweithiwr, ond, yn hytrach, mae’n pattern is for employer and employee to ffynhonnell drwgdeimlad a’r patrwm arferol become disgruntled because of the yw i gyflogwr a gweithiwr fod yn anfodlon settlement. It also raises the fact that farming oherwydd y setliad. Mae hefyd yn codi’r sectors are becoming highly specialised at the ffaith bod y sectorau ffermio yn dod yn moment, often with different systems, arbenigol iawn ar hyn o bryd, yn aml gyda whether it is expertise in genetically modified systemau gwahanol, boed yn arbenigedd crops or specialist types of farming mewn cnydau a addaswyd yn enetig neu systems— fathau arbenigol o systemau ffermio—

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. You Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Ni allwch cannot make another speech, Antoinette. You wneud araith arall, Antoinette. Rydych wedi have made your point. gwneud eich pwynt.

Antoinette Sandbach: The Agricultural Antoinette Sandbach: Mae’r Bwrdd Wages Board limits— Cyflogau Amaethyddol yn cyfyngu ar—

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. This Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Dadl fer yw is a short debate; we do not usually have hon, nid ydym fel arfer yn cael yr anawsterau these difficulties with Members. [Laughter.] I hyn gydag Aelodau. [Chwerthin.] Rwy’n hope that it will not continue. gobeithio na fydd yn parhau.

Alun Davies: I was attempting to be Alun Davies: Roeddwn yn ceisio bod yn generous, but my hand was taken off me. hael, ond roedd rhai yn rhy awyddus i

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fanteisio ar fy haelioni.

Let me say to Antoinette that no farmer Gadewch i mi ddweud wrth Antoinette nad anywhere in Wales has approached me and oes unrhyw ffermwr yn unrhyw le yng told me that they support the abolition of the Nghymru wedi cysylltu â mi a dweud wrthyf AWB. No-one, anywhere or at any time has eu bod yn cefnogi diddymu’r bwrdd. Nid oes done so, formally or in informal unrhyw un, yn unrhyw le, neu ar unrhyw conversations. At no time has it been raised adeg wedi gwneud hynny, yn ffurfiol neu with me as a significant issue for Welsh mewn sgyrsiau anffurfiol. Nid yw ar unrhyw agriculture by any organisation; in fact, quite adeg wedi cael ei godi gyda mi fel mater the reverse. I spoke with young farmers at arwyddocaol ar gyfer amaethyddiaeth yng their annual general meeting on Saturday in Nghymru gan unrhyw sefydliad; i’r the Millennium Stadium in Cardiff. The gwrthwyneb yn hollol mewn gwirionedd. subject was raised there, and I was asked to Siaradais gyda ffermwyr ifanc yn eu cyfarfod give them a guarantee that I would continue cyffredinol blynyddol ddydd Sadwrn yn to fight for the AWB for exactly the reasons Stadiwm y Mileniwm yng Nghaerdydd. that have already been given this afternoon. I Codwyd y pwnc yno, a gofynnwyd i mi roi gave them that undertaking on Saturday, and sicrwydd y byddwn yn parhau i ymladd dros I give that undertaking to the Chamber this y bwrdd am yr union resymau sydd eisoes afternoon. The Farmers Union of Wales and wedi eu cyflwyno y prynhawn yma. Unite have demonstrated, and Mick Rhoddais yr addewid honno ddydd Sadwrn, a Antoniw’s report brings this out clearly, that rhoddaf yr addewid honno i’r Siambr y the AWB remains an important tool for prynhawn yma. Mae Undeb Amaethwyr setting fair pay rates and working conditions Cymru ac Unite wedi dangos, ac mae in Wales. adroddiad Mick Antoniw yn dangos hyn yn glir, bod y bwrdd yn parhau i fod yn offeryn pwysig ar gyfer gosod cyfraddau cyflog teg ac amodau gwaith yng Nghymru.

When I came to office last year, I was asked Pan gychwynnais ar fy swydd y llynedd, by the UK Government for my consent to the gofynnwyd imi gan Lywodraeth y DU am fy abolition of the board under the provisions of nghaniatâd i ddiddymu’r bwrdd o dan the Public Bodies Act 2011. I expressed at ddarpariaethau Deddf Cyrff Cyhoeddus 2011. that time my determined wish to retain the Mynegais ar y pryd fy nymuniad penderfynol functions of the AWB in Wales. By far the i gadw swyddogaethau’r bwrdd yng simplest way to ensure that this could happen Nghymru. Y ffordd symlaf o ddigon i sicrhau would have been for the UK Government to y gallai hyn ddigwydd fyddai i Lywodraeth y make a provision under a Public Bodies Act DU wneud darpariaeth o dan Orchymyn Order both to abolish the board in relation to Deddf Cyrff Cyhoeddus i ddiddymu’r bwrdd England and to enable a separate board to be mewn perthynas â Lloegr ac i alluogi sefydlu set up in Wales. bwrdd ar wahân yng Nghymru.

With that in mind, I made an official request Gyda hynny mewn golwg, rwyf yn gwneud to DEFRA for the functions of the AWB to cais swyddogol i DEFRA i swyddogaethau’r be transferred to Welsh Ministers under the bwrdd gael eu trosglwyddo i Weinidogion proposed Order to abolish the board under Cymru o dan y Gorchymyn arfaethedig i gael the Public Bodies Act. I was very gwared ar y bwrdd o dan y Ddeddf Cyrff disappointed that this reasonable and Cyhoeddus. Roeddwn yn siomedig iawn bod practical request was turned down by y cais rhesymol ac ymarferol hwn wedi ei Caroline Spelman, the then Secretary of wrthod gan Caroline Spelman, yr State. In making her decision, she argued that Ysgrifennydd Gwladol ar y pryd. Wrth AWB functions are employment-related wneud ei phenderfyniad, dadleuodd bod functions that did not, in her opinion, amount swyddogaethau’r bwrdd yn swyddogaethau to a devolved matter. cysylltiedig â chyflogaeth, ac nad oeddent, yn

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ei barn hi, yn fater datganoledig.

The Welsh Government’s considered opinion Barn ystyriol Llywodraeth Cymru yw bod is that the remit of the AWB falls squarely cylch gwaith y bwrdd yn dod yn llwyr dan y under the subject heading of agriculture in pennawd pwnc amaethyddiaeth yn Atodlen 7 Schedule 7 to the Government of Wales Act i Ddeddf Llywodraeth Cymru 2006 a’i fod, 2006 and that it is, therefore, a matter that is felly, yn fater sy’n gyfan gwbl o fewn entirely within the legislative competence of cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol y Cynulliad. the Assembly. That is why I reject Bill Dyna pam rwyf yn gwrthod awgrym Bill Powell’s suggestion that this is a matter that Powell bod hwn yn fater y dylid ei ystyried should be considered by the Silk commission gan gomisiwn Silk neu unrhyw gomisiwn or any other commission. This is already arall. Mae hyn eisoes o fewn cymhwysedd within the legislative competence of this deddfwriaethol y lle hwn, a dyma le dylai place, and this is where decisions on its penderfyniadau ar ei ddyfodol gael eu future should be taken. It is the Welsh gwneud. Barn Llywodraeth Cymru, felly, yw Government’s opinion, therefore, that the UK bod gofyn i Lywodraeth y DU gael cydsyniad Government requires the consent of the y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol i ddiddymu’r National Assembly to abolish the board under bwrdd o dan y Ddeddf Cyrff Cyhoeddus. the Public Bodies Act.

This difference of opinion between the UK Mae’r gwahaniaeth barn rhwng y DU a and the Welsh Governments has slowed Llywodraethau Cymru wedi arafu cynnydd down the UK Government’s progress Llywodraeth y DU tuag at ddiddymu’r towards the abolition of the AWB. I have bwrdd. Rwyf wedi bod yn rhan o been involved in extensive face-to-face drafodaethau helaeth wyneb-yn-wyneb a negotiations and correspondence with gohebiaeth gyda DEFRA a Gweinidogion DEFRA and Wales Office Ministers on this Swyddfa Cymru ar y mater hwn. Yn issue. Unfortunately, these discussions have anffodus, nid yw’r trafodaethau hyn wedi yielded no firm solutions to move this esgor ar unrhyw atebion pendant i symud y process forward. I will now try to work with broses ymlaen. Byddaf yn awr yn ceisio the new Ministers in these departments gweithio gyda’r Gweinidogion newydd yn yr following the recent reshuffle of the UK adrannau hyn yn dilyn yr ad-drefnu diweddar Cabinet. I am very keen to resolve the issue ar Gabinet y DU. Rwyf yn awyddus i ddatrys in a way that enables both Governments to y mater mewn ffordd sy’n galluogi’r ddwy proceed with their different policy agendas in Lywodraeth i fynd ymlaen â’u hagendâu an amicable and businesslike manner. polisi gwahanol mewn ffordd gyfeillgar a phroffesiynol.

I am hopeful that we will be able to find a Rwyf yn obeithiol y byddwn yn gallu canfod workable and agreeable solution that will ateb ymarferol a dymunol a fydd yn sicrhau y ensure that the working conditions of bydd amodau gwaith gweithwyr amaethyddol agricultural workers in Wales will remain yng Nghymru yn dal i gael eu diogelu. Rwyf protected. I am to meet David Heath, the i gwrdd â David Heath, y Gweinidog Minister of State for Agriculture and Food, Gwladol dros Amaethyddiaeth a Bwyd, ar 15 on 15 October, and the AWB will be a key Hydref, a bydd y bwrdd yn eitem allweddol agenda item. This will be the sixth UK ar yr agenda. Hwn fydd y chweched Minister that I have met in the past 18 Gweinidog y DU yr wyf wedi cwrdd ag ef yn months to discuss this issue. It is clear that ystod y 18 mis diwethaf i drafod y mater the UK Government does not have a clear hwn. Mae’n amlwg nad oes gan Lywodraeth idea of where it is going or what it wants to y DU syniad clir i ble y mae’n mynd neu beth achieve. I would appeal to the current y mae am ei gyflawni. Byddwn yn apelio ar Ministers and their departments to work Weinidogion presennol a’u hadrannau i together with the Welsh Government to weithio gyda’i gilydd gyda Llywodraeth ensure that we have a positive outcome on Cymru i sicrhau ein bod yn cael canlyniad

148 10/10/2012 this matter. cadarnhaol ar y mater hwn.

Even if our continued negotiations with the Hyd yn oed os yw ein trafodaethau parhaus â UK Government fail to result in an amicable Llywodraeth y DU yn methu ag arwain at agreement, I want to make it absolutely clear gytundeb cyfeillgar, rwyf am ei gwneud yn this afternoon that the Welsh Government gwbl glir y prynhawn yma y bydd will continue to explore all available options Llywodraeth Cymru yn parhau i ymchwilio to ensure that the functions of the i’r holl opsiynau sydd ar gael i sicrhau bod Agricultural Wages Board are maintained in swyddogaethau’r Bwrdd Cyflogau Wales. Amaethyddol yn cael eu cynnal yng Nghymru.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Daw hynny â The Deputy Presiding Officer: That brings thrafodion heddiw i ben. today’s proceedings to a close.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 5.52 p.m. The meeting ended at 5.52 p.m.

Aelodau a’u Pleidiau Members and their Parties

Andrews, Leighton (Llafur – Labour) Antoniw, Mick (Llafur – Labour) Asghar, Mohammad (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) Black, Peter (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats) Burns, Angela (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) Butler, Rosemary (Llafur – Labour) Chapman, Christine (Llafur – Labour) Cuthbert, Jeff (Llafur – Labour) Davies, Alun (Llafur – Labour) Davies, Andrew R.T. (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) Davies, Byron (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) Davies, Jocelyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales) Davies, Keith (Llafur – Labour) Davies, Paul (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) Davies, Suzy (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) Drakeford, Mark (Llafur – Labour) Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales) Evans, Rebecca (Llafur – Labour) Finch-Saunders, Janet (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) George, Russell (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) Gething, Vaughan (Llafur – Labour) Graham, William (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) Gregory, Janice (Llafur – Labour) Griffiths, John (Llafur – Labour) Griffiths, Lesley (Llafur – Labour) Gruffydd, Llyr Huws (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales) Hart, Edwina (Llafur – Labour) Hedges, Mike (Llafur – Labour) Hutt, Jane (Llafur – Labour) Isherwood, Mark (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) James, Julie (Llafur – Labour) Jenkins, Bethan (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales) Jones, Alun Ffred (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales) Jones, Ann (Llafur – Labour) Jones, Carwyn (Llafur – Labour) Jones, Elin (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales) Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales) Lewis, Huw (Llafur – Labour) Melding, David (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) Mewies, Sandy (Llafur – Labour) Millar, Darren (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) Morgan, Julie (Llafur – Labour)

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Neagle, Lynne (Llafur – Labour) Parrott, Eluned (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats) Powell, William (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats) Price, Gwyn R. (Llafur – Labour) Ramsay, Nick (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) Rathbone, Jenny (Llafur – Labour) Rees, David (Llafur – Labour) Roberts, Aled (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats) Sandbach, Antoinette (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) Sargeant, Carl (Llafur – Labour) Skates, Kenneth (Llafur – Labour) Thomas, Gwenda (Llafur – Labour) Thomas, Rhodri Glyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales) Thomas, Simon (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales) Watson, Joyce (Llafur – Labour) Whittle, Lindsay (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales) Williams, Kirsty (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats) Wood, Leanne (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)

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