Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru the National Assembly for Wales
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Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru The National Assembly for Wales Y Pwyllgor Cymunedau, Cydraddoldeb a Llywodraeth Leol The Communities, Equality and Local Government Committee Dydd Mercher, 6 Chwefror 2013 Thursday, 6 February 2013 Cynnwys Contents Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau a Dirprwyon Introduction, Apologies and Substitutions Bil Llywodraeth Leol (Democratiaeth) (Cymru) (Cyfnod 1): Sesiwn Dystiolaeth gyda’r Gweinidog Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau Local Government (Democracy) (Wales) Bill (Stage 1): Evidence Session with the Minister for Local Government and Communities Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o Weddill y Cyfarfod Motion under Standing Order No. 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public from the Remainder of the Meeting Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. 06/02/2013 Aelodau’r pwyllgor yn bresennol Committee members in attendance Peter Black Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru Welsh Liberal Democrats Janet Finch-Saunders Ceidwadwyr Cymreig Welsh Conservatives Mike Hedges Llafur Labour Mark Isherwood Ceidwadwyr Cymreig Welsh Conservatives Ann Jones Llafur (Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor) Labour (Committee Chair) Gwyn R. Price Llafur Labour Kenneth Skates Llafur Labour Rhodri Glyn Thomas Plaid Cymru The Party of Wales Joyce Watson Llafur Labour Lindsay Whittle Plaid Cymru The Party of Wales Eraill yn bresennol Others in attendance Frank Cuthbert Pennaeth y Tîm Craffu, Democratiaeth a Chyfranogi, Llywodraeth Cymru Head of Scrutiny, Democracy and Participation Team, Welsh Government Louise Gibson Cyfreithiwr, Llywodraeh Cymru Lawyer, Welsh Government Carl Sargeant Aelod Cynulliad, Llafur (Y Gweinidog Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau) Assembly Member, Labour (The Minister for Local Government and Communities) Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn bresennol National Assembly for Wales officials in attendance Bethan Davies Clerc Clerk Gwyn Griffiths Uwch-gynghorydd Cyfreithiol Senior Legal Adviser Leanne Hatcher Dirprwy Glerc Deputy Clerk Rhys Iorwerth Ymchwilydd Researcher Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 9.15 a.m. The meeting began at 9.15 a.m. 06/02/2013 Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau a Dirprwyon Introduction, Apologies and Substitutions [1] Ann Jones: Good morning everybody and welcome to the Communities, Equality and Local Government Committee. I ask Members to switch off their mobile phones, BlackBerrys and pagers as they may affect the translation and broadcasting equipment. This is a formal session and the committee meets bilingually. If you need to use the translation equipment, please use channel 1 for translation from Welsh to English and channel 0 for the floor language. We are not expecting the fire alarm to sound, so, should it do so, we will take our instructions from the ushers, or you can follow me, as I always say. Do Members wish to declare any interests that they have not already declared? I see that they do not. 9.17 a.m. Bil Llywodraeth Leol (Democratiaeth) (Cymru) (Cyfnod 1): Sesiwn Dystiolaeth gyda’r Gweinidog Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau Local Government (Democracy) (Wales) Bill (Stage 1): Evidence Session with the Minister for Local Government and Communities [2] Ann Jones: This is the final session in Stage 1 of the Local Government (Democracy) (Wales) Bill. I am delighted to have the Minister for Local Government and Communities back for the final session. I welcome you and your team, Minister. Would you introduce yourself and the team for the record? We will then move to questions. [3] The Minister for Local Government and Communities (Carl Sargeant): Good morning, Chair. I am Carl Sargeant, the Minister for Local Government and Communities. [4] Mr Cuthbert: My name is Frank Cuthbert, and I deal with local government and democracy issues for the Welsh Government. [5] Ms Gibson: My name is Louise Gibson, and I am the lawyer for the Bill. [6] Ann Jones: Thank you. Are you happy to move straight to questions? I see that you are. In this final session, we will try to get you to respond to some of the issues that people have raised with us during our evidence sessions. First, how would you respond to the boundary commission’s suggestion that its quorum should remain at two? [7] Carl Sargeant: I do not agree with that. With the previous commission, it appeared that there was a very powerful chair and a supporting member. I think that a minimum of three members for the commission to be quorate would be reasonable, and that is why I have imposed that. [8] Ann Jones: The commission said that if there were to be a quorum of three, it would require the appointment of additional commissioners. This would incur what it says is an unnecessary cost. Do you share that view? [9] Carl Sargeant: No, I do not. [10] Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Rydym wedi Rhodri Glyn Thomas: We have discussed trafod gyda nifer o dystion yr angen i gael with many witnesses the need to have a comisiynydd neu gomisiynwyr sy’n medru’r commissioner or commissioners who can Gymraeg oherwydd bod awdurdodau ar fwy speak Welsh because authorities on more nag un lefel yn cael eu gweinyddu trwy than one level are administered through the gyfrwng y Gymraeg a bod angen cyfathrebu medium of Welsh and there is a need to 06/02/2013 â’r cynghorau hynny. Mae’r gofyniad am communicate with those councils. The gael o leiaf un comisiynydd sy’n medru’r requirement to have at least one Gymraeg wedi cael ei ddileu o’r Bil hwn. commissioner who can speak Welsh has been Rydych yn dadlau y bydd polisi iaith removed from this Bill. You argue that the Llywodraeth Cymru yn sicrhau bod un neu Welsh Government’s language policy will fwy ohonynt yn medru’r Gymraeg. Fodd ensure that one or more commissioners will bynnag, yr awgrym sydd wedi cael ei wneud be able to speak Welsh. However, the yw bod hynny’n gwanhau Deddf suggestion has been made is that that Llywodraeth Leol 1972. weakens the Local Government Act 1972. [11] Carl Sargeant: Thank you for your question, Rhodri Glyn. We believe that this is progress, and I would not want any member of the committee, or anyone giving evidence, to think that we are trying to water down the effects on the Welsh language. We took new steps regarding the Local Government Act 1972 before the provisions were in place. Since then, with the passage of time, the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011 has come through, and we believe that the commission, as a public body, has to comply with those rules. What we are saying is that, for all appointments, consideration should be given to the Welsh language, as opposed to thinking that one person—who may not attend the public meeting—is a Welsh speaker and therefore we have ticked the box in terms of consideration of the 1972 Act. With the Welsh language Measure, we believe that there should be compliance by the Welsh Government and all public bodies, and that the commission should also be included in that process. There should therefore be consideration of the Welsh language across the whole organisation of the commission and its appointments, not just one person ticking the box as a Welsh-language speaker. We believe that this strengthens that position, but if Members think that that is not correct, then I am more than happy to listen to your views. [12] Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Diolch am yr Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Thank you for that ateb hwnnw, Weinidog. Rydych yn sôn am reply, Minister. You talk about giving roi ystyriaeth i’r iaith Gymraeg. Beth yw consideration to the Welsh language. What ystyr hynny mewn gwirionedd? Rwy’n credu does that mean in reality? I think that it ei fod yn dibynnu i raddau helaeth ar y depends to a large extent on the definition diffiniad o beth yn union yw ‘ystyriaeth o’r that you have of ‘consideration of the Welsh iaith Gymraeg’. A yw’n gwarantu bod language’. Does it guarantee that there will ganddo gomisiynwyr sy’n medru’r Gymraeg be Welsh-speaking commissioners and that a bod y comisiwn yn medru cyfathrebu drwy the commission will be able to communicate gyfrwng y Gymraeg ar bob achos y mae galw through the medium of Welsh whenever that am hynny? is required? [13] Carl Sargeant: As the Member is aware, the Welsh language Measure is very clear on the process of that. I think that I have the comments around that. The public appointments procedure is covered by the Welsh Government’s Welsh language scheme, which ensures that the need for Welsh-speaking commissioners is taken into account during the recruitment process. I believe that the scope of that is covered in the Measure, unless you are suggesting that the Welsh language Measure is incorrect. [14] Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Na, nid wyf Rhodri Glyn Thomas: No, I am not yn awgrymu hynny. Rwy’n cwestiynu’r suggesting that. I am questioning the diffiniad o gwmpas rhoi ystyriaeth i’r iaith definitions around giving consideration to the Gymraeg a sicrhau bod yr iaith Gymraeg yn Welsh language and ensuring that the Welsh cael ei hystyried mewn penodiadau. Y language is considered in appointments. The cwestiwn mae tystion wedi gofyn i ni yw: a question that witnesses have asked us is: does yw hynny’n sicrhau y bydd comisiynydd neu that ensure that there will be a Welsh- gomisiynwyr sy’n medru’r Gymraeg, neu a speaking commissioner or commissioners, or fyddai modd defnyddio gofynion y Mesur i would it be possible to use the requirements osgoi’r hyn a oedd yn ofynnol yn Neddf of the Measure to avoid what was required by 06/02/2013 Llywodraeth Leol 1972? the Local Government Act 1972? [15] Carl Sargeant: As I said, we have a cross-party agreement on the Welsh language Measure and there are clear guidelines and provisions within it that public bodies—including the commission, the Welsh Government, and other organisations of public order—have to comply with.