Vwi . £ ' NOT , " . • . TCI THIS ROOM Kii-.--' :iif County Library Winnemucca, Nevada

JEANNIE JOY and WILL CARSON

HUMBOLDT COUNTY LIBRARY WINNEMUCCA, NEVADA Vwi . £ ' NOT , " . • . TCI THIS ROOM Kii-.--' :iif County Library Winnemucca, Nevada

JEANNIE JOY and WILL CARSON

HUMBOLDT COUNTY LIBRARY WINNEMUCCA, NEVADA S: Had Winnemucca changed from 1959 to 1961? W: I don't know if it was during that period but when we first played in Tonopah in 1959, silver dollars were all the thing. Mining was going real well then and we would have people lined up at the bar who would toss silver dollars at us. It was sort of like that in Winnemucca when we first went there but not quite as much because mining wasn't as big there as in Tonopah. A big change did occur but a little later there is a big gap now to what it was then and what it is now. J: The Humboldt Hotel burned and that made a bit difference too and then they put the mall in there which is in there now. They used to have entertainment there and that was quite a landmark. S: What year was that the Humboldt Hotel burned? W: Sometime in the sixties. S: In the sixties, you were on the road? W: We were full time on the road and we had bought our property up in Unionville, in 1962, we were never here much and we played in Cheyenne and Rollins and Rock Springs and Jackson Hole, Wyoming. There is a lot of changes since we were playing up in Jackson. S: What were some of the changes? J: It wasn't all of the houses and it was all wilderness and the town square, was always there. W: It is overcommercialized. J: There are homes in some of the elk pastures. It is too many people and not enough wilderness. Everybody wants to live in Jackson Hole. W: It is such beautiful country. J: Grand Teton Mountains and a lot of people from back east have property there. S: Wasn't there a lot mining going on in the sixties and seventies? W: Oil, coal mining also. J: Mining shut down and the coal shut down that hurt Wyoming pretty bad. They are in a recession now. W: Jackson Hole is doing well and Laramie because of the college is doing well. S: We have gone on this tape from 1961 and now we are 1960 *s, 1970's and how did your music change and were you impacted by 1957 and what happened then? J: Elvis Presley turned it over overnight. What was considered good music was the in thing and Elvis Presley put rock and roll on and young kids went for that. That hurt a lot of the travelling musicians, if they didn't go to rock music it hurt your bookings and it hurt our bookings. We are not that type of entertainer, we don't play that kind of music. The clubs wanted rock and roll music and in the clubs in Wyoming, they changed the drinking age to nineteen, that was another factor that hurt our type of music. They wanted big bands and they wanted it loud and they wanted rock and roll music. Where we had two accounts, at each club we lost a lot of them. S: They changed the drinking law in the late 1970's. J: Yes, they did, take an example, this really happened, Edie we played the Outlaw Inn in Rock Springs and Mike Vass the Manager there saw us bringing in our amplifiers and he said that

PAGE9 you better not be loud and we said that if we were ever loud that you tell us and we will cut it down to anything that you would want. When they changed to nineteen year-olds and rock music came in, we would play for Rock Springs about two times a year. He said you are nice people you are not b flatters. This all changed, he said Jeannie and Will you are nice people but you don't play loud enough and you don't play rock. The lounge that we worked in was quite small and he got three and four piece groups in there, playing loud music and it changed just like that which was incredible for us. There it was. We lost a lot of our accounts but as Will said we refused to play that type of music. It hurts my ears I can't stand it and the younger people like it but they are going to go deaf and the future is in hearing aides. S: In the sixties or seventies you backed up Rex Allen? W: I had known Rex from way back and my brother Mel had known him and he came in and he needed some one to back him up on this job so he hired Jeannie and me. It was a high school auditorium full of young kids. They were into rock and they didn't even know who Rex Allen was, so you tell what happened from there on when we got about halfway through the evening. J: Rex was doing his best and he is a fine singer and he yodels good and the kids were bored to death and they didn't like his music so at a certain time, the janitor came up and shut the power off to the p.a. set. He just stood there and there was no power on the mikes and he just walked off the stage and later that night, came into the club where we were working at the Westbank Lounge and he said I want a martini and keep them coming, I have never been so insulted in my whole life. We felt so sorry for him and he is very talented and to have a janitor just pull the plug. I think that I would get drunk too. S: You were up there in Torrington Wyoming, at the Kings Inn, and that was in the sixties and you can tell me about that. J: We had just finished playing at the Winners Inn for Joe and so they wanted us up there and we had to open the next night and that is a thousand miles. I took a lot of chocolate Nodoes, and we get up to Torrington and the town is full of FBI, National Guard and they said AIM that indian movement, has tried to take over the whole town. The historical fort, Larramie out there they are going to destroy that and a lot of businesses downtown and they were praying. There was no room anyway because the National Guard or the FBI had the rooms, we couldn't find any place to stay that night so we got set up and one customer that he had driven in said that he wasn't going to be around for any indian fights so he canceled out at the Kings Inn so we took that room, and we went ahead and thought well, we are here if the war breaks out we can hide behind the amplifiers, or something. Come to find out there were only three indians who threatened to do this, and they didn't do anything and they blew it all out of proportion and the news media got a hold of it and here was all of this trouble so we had two weeks up there. After the first week the lady didn't care for our music and said don't play honky music, and I said that I don't understand by what you mean, honky music and she said play what is popular which we were doing, and she was a hair dresser. She said you will have to change your music and I said no we are playing what is current and popular, why don't you just get another act, we will play

PAGE10 this first week, but you can get another act. We heard when we left that she went bankrupt, because she didn't understand the business. W: We played there with the other owners and always went over good, she took over and wanted to make it into a rock and roll thing and she was catering to the young kids. J: It used to be funny, Edie, we used to be up on the stage and they had young girls as bartenders and these girls would squat down and they had drinks stashed down behind the bar, they thought that they were hiding from everyone. We saw them real good and they were drinking away. Then they would come up with a smile on their face and no wonder the lady went bankrupt, they were drinking it all. W: About the same time we played up at the Sheridan Inn, in Sheridan, Wyoming, a place where Buffalo Bill used to hang out in the old days. It was owned by Nelga King who was formerly Nelga Doubleday, the publishing company, she bought that place and it was really nice. It had a nice rustic atmosphere. We stayed upstairs in an apartment, just ultra-modern, we enjoyed our stay up there very much, that was really fun. We would go to all of the antique stores and look for all of the indian stuff. S: You two, were in Gallup, New Mexico. J: That is right Edie, we were playing at the Shalimar, a motel unit and restaurant and lounge and we were in good indian country, the Zuni, the Navajo and Hopi. During the day we liked to go out to the grocery store because in those days the indians liked to use their turquoise jewellery, as a pawn, collateral to pay for their groceries, and if they didn't come back after a certain amount of time then the store owners would put this pawn up for sale, and I liked to buy some of that. We thought let's drive out to Window Rock, Arizona, to see if they had some pawn over there. That is a Safeway store, so Will said I will wait for you as you have dragged me through these pawn shops all morning. I went in through the door and there were no groceries, it is all pool tables and indians were playing pool all over. There was another door and another building so I thought maybe the groceries are in there. I went in there and it is a liquor store it was just on the borderline and boy are they drunk. This was in the morning so I thought, I better get out of here. I got to the door and this indian gets hold of my hand just like a clamp like a bear trap, and plunk and he says I love you and he is drinking the beer. I got away from the man and back to the car and I told Will and he said you better watch these pawn shops, and grocery stores. It was fun and they had gorgeous jewellery. They did such beautiful work and we enjoyed the pretty country. S: That was 1965 you were in Gallup and then 1966 you had another assignment, can you tell me about that. J: Vietnam, do you want to start that off, Father. W: Ok I don't know how we were contacted, oh, Johnny Robinson contacted us, that they needed entertainment over there and we were talked into it. It wasn't the USO, it just was through private agencies, and we played all of these officers' clubs and enlisted mens' clubs but not only in Vietnam but in all of the countries all over the Far East where our soldier were

PAGE11 fighting which included— J: We went to Guam, the Philippines, Okinawa. W: Of course, this wasn't all fighting countries because we went to Hong Kong and Thailand, Cambodia and we went through Laos and Japan, that was kind of a vacation break. As for some of our experiences over there would you like to ask us some questions to refresh our memories of what would have been of interest. J: I might mention that everybody had to audition and they graded your show by how much they should charge by stage and ours was rated as two hundred dollars a stage, and we did three shows a night and the agency was responsible for putting us up in a villa but we were responsible for getting our own food. They had the responsibility of taking us to these clubs to perform. S: There was an incident where you were not picked up and you were supposed to be. J: When you get to the airport, you can't stay there, that is taboo no one can be at that airport, because that is when the VC come in. During the day they would guard you the white trousers in the day and the black pyjamas at night, they kill you at night. It was very important that the agents be there to pick you up. This particular time we were up in Denang and no one met us and we were out all day waiting for this agent to pick us up, finally a navy officer, came by in a truck and he said are you stranded, and I said, we sure are. He knew the agent who was supposed to pick us up and he said he lives in the Villa, close to Jaybird. We knew Jaybird from working at Joe Mackey's, Paul Shilling and Jaybird, they had a big band, a good band. I said, we knew Jaybird, take us there. He took us to Jaybird's villa, she had heavy set gals and called them jolly green giants. While we were coming up from the airport we had all of our show clothes, street clothes, shoes, everything in this one bag, it folded over and buckled up tight, in the back of this navy truck that had wire. The streets are very narrow and a Vietcong was on a motorbike and came up and grabbed that suitcase off of that truck. By the time we got stopped and turned around, he was gone. We got hold of the military police and filled out forms and he said this was going to be hopeless, they will disperse your clothes so fast, that even if you found them that stuff would be gone. We were supposed to play three shows that night. When we travelled we travelled in the battle fatigue clothes the same as the military men because we travelled with them on these planes. They dropped the belly down of the plane and that is the way we travelled with them. We had combat boots and clothes, Jaybird said I have some dresses from these girls and they will fit you. I said that is swell. I found out that we could round up some clothes for Will, so that he wouldn't be in his battle fatigue clothes either. This agent never did show up. The next morning we went down there and he had been out on a date, and I said where were you, why didn't you pick us up. H said what are you doing in here, I had no shows for you. He said you shouldn't have been sent here. I said oh swell, why didn't you tell them that in Saigon, and I said our show clothes have been stolen. He said I will have to send you back, I don't have any shows for you. When we went back to Saigon, we tried to find some clothes

PAGE12 for me, and being heavy set, so we went in and I told those girls, they were little bitty people, they would bring out the biggest thing they could find. There was a round shower curtain for a dressing room and the humidity was tremendous and these clothes would stick and I couldn't get them on and I couldn't get them off. And the shower curtain is going back and forth and these girls are standing out there and they are trying to be very polite and tears are running down their faces. We had to go to a tailor shop to get clothes made for us. I said to the people make them real big. They would get the things done and Will puts his shirt on and he can't straighten his arm out he comes out almost up to his elbow and he is waded up almost like a pretzel, and I looked like Marjory Main and it was a sack type dress and we looked like Ma and Pa kettle, it was awful. In the meantime, they brought in fifteen piece bands from Australia with go go girls and no one wants to look at Ma and Pa Kettle, when they have go go girls up on the stage. Our act wouldn't sell, so the agent said would you mind if we paid you off and sent you home, and I said that would be the kindest thing that you have ever done. I had to go back home in those battle fatigue clothes and the closer we got to Los Angeles, Will was sitting farther away from me on the plane. We got to Hawaii and I had two wigs and one of them was stolen in Hawaii, so I reported that. They said that when you get to Los Angeles, you report that and you will get reimbursed for that. We get to Los Angeles, and Will said you go ahead and report that, and Father is way back and he isn't walking with me and I looked really funny, combat boots klunking along and this blue hat that I always wear, I thought I will act really important and I went marching down there to this office, the claims department and this guy comes around and he says yes sir, I mean, m'am. I said I want to report a stolen wig. He says, a wig, just a minute and he disappears from the window and I hear ha, ha. And pretty soon he comes back and his faced is red and the tears are running down and he says just fill out these forms and everything will be swell and he disappears again. I went out and took the forms and will had the baggage, and the people who were supposed to pick us up went past us about four times, they didn't recognize us. I thought I better get out of these clothes if I ever want to get home. They finally stopped and picked us up and we got home. Father do you want to tell them another incident. W: This was earlier, were you talking about our first trip to Vietnam or J: That was the second trip. Tell them about why we had to go back. W: Before we mention why we went back, we didn't always play in clubs, a lot of times we were way out in the jungle and we played in camps. One time we stayed at Tu Due Village a little place outside of Saigon, a villa that we shared with other entertainers, so one day or night, I should say, J: In back of us all of those jeeps were parked, the Vietcong came through with grenades, they threw those grenades up and they would roll under the cars and they would destroy those cars. W: Our own planes came, search and destroy planes,

PAGE13 helicopter, they started bombing and here we were in this villa and all of this was going on around us. The sergeant-in- charge told all of the women to get under the bed, quick. Jeannie tried to crawl under the bed but she couldn't make it was all full of these, guys. He piled a bunch of blankets and mattresses on top of Jeannie and I was crawling around a corner and I peeked out a window and saw some action going on. That was really scary and that was as close as we came to actually being in a battle. J: The next morning they said that is it we are going into Saigon, Will and I stayed thinking that was a one-time thing, it was the agent staying there with us and the cook, and the busdriver. The VC came back'again and they were using those grenades again on those army trucks. Here went the battle again and the next morning, when we woke up this kid that was driving the bus, there was a grenade on the steps of the villa where we were and he said here is one that didn't go off and he is tossing it up and down and catching it in his hand. The agent said throw that grenade out there, throw it right now, the kid said I know about those things and the kid said I know about these things and the agent said throw it out there, and he had no sooner thrown it out there than it went off or we wouldn't be here. Then I panicked and I said take us back to the Cat in the Hat Hotel. We were going to perform in a theatre down in Saigon, the bus had a flat tire and this German kid who was driving the bus drove into the station and was trying to get that tire fixed. He had this air hose and he was checking the other tires, that air hose got stuck in the door and it cut that air hose. The Vietnamese people who were running the station, got real mad and they said Americans number 10 and that means very bad, they threw the windows open and they hit Will in the chest with one of the Vietnamese socked him with his fist. I told that kid, drive that bus out of here right now there is trouble, he said there is no trouble and he didn't know that he had broken the hose. He was the same kid who threw that grenade. I said don't ask questions just drive the bus as hard as you can and we got to this theatre and my blood pressure was up and I had a little button and it said panic button, you would press that and a little flag would come up and it would say panic. The agent said gee, you have a nice suntan, I said that isn't a suntan that is panic. He explained what happened and oh my gosh. Americans were hated by everyone in the Far East. W: You would always hear in the distance, yankee go home in a very broken english. J: The reason that we had to go back a second time Edie, they paid us a flat salary each week, when we got back one of our checks bounced. We called this agency in Las Vegas, and told them that our check had bounced, and that we wanted our money. The agent became very pushy and I said we will take it up legally, come to find out there were nineteen other acts that he had not paid. As he said you can't sue me and I said, I tell you what I will do I will write to the American Federation of musicians, and have your booking license revoked, as a booking agent because everyone went over and did their part and they deserve to have their money, you are working under duress and the chance of being killed, and you go south with yous money. That got results and 0t/j? PAGE14 he changed his attitude and said that I will pay you back, if you will go over to Vietnam again and he said that he would pay us over and above what you have coming. We did get our money. W: By going back. That was 1968. J When we first went over, the boys just if you sat and talked to them, thought it was wonderful and they were homesick and very patriotic and believed in what they were doing. When we went back the second time the dope was so prevalent, we stayed in the barracks with these boys, in the hallways in the rooms, you could smell the marijuana that they were using. If they didn't like your act they would throw toilet paper at you or tear gas bombs. W: When we got outside camps, on the border— J: The sergeant said, it didn't happen to other acts but it happened to us where they would throw a tear gas bomb. He had his mps with machine guns and he said you will see this show and you will conduct yourselves in a manner that you are supposed to. So it was useless, to be over there. They didn't care if you were American or who you were they were so spaced out at that time. That is also when they brought in the Australians and the go go girls. It was a good time for us to go home. I was so thankful to go home and when that plane landed in Los Angeles I climbed down in those combat boots I went down that gangplank and got down on my hands and knees and I kissed that airport ground. This little fat kid was home to stay. J: So where did the agent send us after that? To Alaska, and it was mid-winter. We weren't home a week. S: What date are we talking about now? W: 1968. J: The first time was in 1966 from Vietnam that was the Juneau, Hotel. The snow was dirty because they used coal. S: What were the people doing for jobs? J: Fishing was and is a big thing, and oil. We went back to Alaska again and played Juneau and Anchorage. Ketchikan was fun and we were on the ocean and there was more to do, real nice people. It would be funny in Anchorage because you would go down the road and signs would say " tank crossing " there were a lot of army people, you would drive along and there was" moose crossing" in Ketchikan. S: Was there logging in Ketchikan? J: Yes, there was logging. We brought back some Bird's Eye Maple. They had a pulp mill and we went through the pulp mill. I was wearing wigs at the time and when you go through the plant you have to wear the safety helmets, because of this wig they couldn't get a helmet big enough it was squashed down on this wig(laugh) and the guy is looking at me and getting a bigger and bigger helmet and he said man, that gal has a big head. Very interesting and we sent back some of that pulp paper from the mill. S: Jeannie and Will, I was interested in your trip to Canada, was that 1967? W: It was to Kitimax, which is a company town, a logging outfit, everybody there was connected with the logging business, put on an annual celebration. On the stage was this little girl who was the top pop singer in Canada, at the time and I can't remember her name, a little black gal and she was very good.

PAGE15 That was a nice time. J: Tell them about the dog show, that was one of their annual things. W: We had our little dog Patches, which came along with this property that we bought in Unionville, he was old even then and had a limp to him like Grandpa McCoy, they took a liking to him and he was on stage with us and he was in the parade. When it came time for the dog show they put on a special event, an award for the oldest dog that had come the longest distance, so of course, Patches won that. That was a very memorable time and we have some photographs of that. J: Tell them about their Canadian beer. W: It was very powerful beer. Here you have a few beers and you take it for granted that it is 3.2 but up there it is four or five times that strong. That was right after Vietnam and we kept trying to come home and as soon as we would come home they would send us off. S: Did you go to Roswell, too? W: Roswell, New Mexico. That was kind of interesting because we ran into a guy I mentioned in my earlier experiences, W. Fay Dallas, there was a guy here by the name of Dick Bills, and he moved down to New Mexico and he moved down to Albuequeque and he had a radio show there, several years later. He had a nephew that used to run around there and we would see him and he wanted to be a musician when he grew up and he did and his name was Glen Campell. Here was Dick Bills and his wife, Barbara, were living in New Mexico, and he was managing a radio station and it was kind of a coincidence. S: In the sixties, and seventies, you played around Nevada, Paradise Valley and Kings River? J: Joe Mackey would donate us and he would say you are going out to Paradise Valley and you are going to play for the Firemen's Ball. We would say ok Joe and it was fun to go to the ranches because we would stay overnight and get to have breakfast with the ranch hands in the morning. They were real country dances and you could bring the kids and there would be a cat or dog, on the dance floor. Then they would put the kids to bed and then they would have a midnight supper. Everybody really had a good time and everyone dances with the kids and it is genuine fun. Midas, too where we played New Years, at the Country Store up there for Sam Seal and his wife, there would be kids and cats on the dance floor. They had a big pool table and they would put a plank, they would put the supper on it and then they would clear it off and then they would dance again. Up there they had their own generators because they didn't have their own electricity, that was fun. S: Where would you play for a dance out of Quinn River? J: That was at the school. Where do they raise the bees and the alfalfa, Orvada, we played there, and I think that was in the Fireman's Hall and that was true country dancing, and everybody really had a good time and that was nice. S: Would you bring us up to date and tell us what you had done in the past with your music and what you are doing now and what you did in the sixties, seventies and eighties. W: Pretty much the same thing, we always insisted in sticking with our type of music, we wouldn't go along with the

PAGE16 change, so it meant that we had to travel to very far places where they would still want to hear our type of music. Sometimes it meant just sitting back and relaxing at our home which we enjoyed very much, after all we bought this place in Unionville and never got anytime to spend there. J: Also we were building a new home so we were at the Washiskie Hotel in Worland, Wyoming, the managers there asked us if we would be interested in running a motel for them, called the Sun Valley Motel, we said we don't know anything about it and we said we will teach you, so I said we will do that, because we were paying for the house as we went, to keep the work going to pay for his labor and his building material, we could get out of the music business for a little bit and have a steady job. We would play casual music on the side from the motel. We went to the motel from 1979-1983, five and a half years. The house was built so we went home and went back into music again. From the time that we came back we were working at the Old Corral in Centenial, Wyoming, and that is an all summer job and we start on Memmorial Day and we go through October, when the weather gets bad we leave and we have been doing that ever since. Do you want to add something to that sweetie? W: During the late sixties and seventies we were back on the Nevada circuit, played the Golden Nugget in Las Vegas, and the Silver Nugget in Carson City. Where was that in Las Vegas, the Nugget, where we worked the morning shift and a young fellow by the name of Wayne Newton was getting started back in the early sixties. We played Wells and Battle Mountain and Ely and Lovelock and Winnemucca, in other words, we stayed around this area at this time and it was so nice to be close to home and have a home, atleast you could see your home once a week. S: What are you working on right now, 1988? W: We have been into humorous stuff, we wrote a couple of funny songs and it went over so big where we played them and we thought let's write more of that sort of thing. We are working on an album now and we will call it" We don't Get Along With Our Neighbours" because that was the name of the initial song, that was so popular, so we have about twenty-four other songs that we are going to record as soon as we can. J: We are still working at the Old Corral in Centenial, Wyoming, that is our main job. S: When did you start working at the Old Corral? J: Twenty years ago. Another fellow who worked there was Red Watson, probably the best banjo player now in existence since Eddy Peabody died. We worked with Eddie Peabody too, that was another thing when we were with Joe Mackey, the Shriners put on a thing in Reno and they had a special train that went from Winnemucca to Reno for this occasion. We entertained on the trip and also Eddie Peabody, the banjo player played. Then we performed on stage there, in Reno and after we got through, a young man came up to us and said would you introduce me I am running for the governor of Nevada, and my name is Paul Laxalt. So Jeannie introduced him. We worked with this Red Watson in Centenial, Wyoming and he is in the Western Hall of Fame, and he is an excellent artist and he is in his eighties and is an excellent Western artist. He has

PAGE17 been playing at the Bucket of Blood twenty years. Also at the Old Coral in Centenial there was the old fiddle player with the Sons of the Pioneer, Hugh Farr, he quit the Sons of the Pioneers and went on to form his own group, he and his wife, who plays drums and they have another man playing rhythm guitar and singing. They played there at the Old Corral before we went in and that was shortly before Hugh died. Hugh was living in Casper, Wyoming at that time. S: What year was that that he died? W: Late seventies and I am not sure of the exact date. S: At this point I would like to ask for your concluding remarks. W: The Old Coral that is our concluding performance and we have been playing there twenty years now and it is such a wonderful place and our type of music still goes over there and it still does in a lot of places. Like Jeannie just mentioned the pendulum is swinging back, so we are kind of glad that we stuck to our guns and our kind of music, and not try to become rock and rollers or anything like that, so it has swung back our way around. I would like to say something abut our boss, Pat Self, he just got inducted into the Hall of Fame for Restaurant Management he and his wife started the place about forty-five years ago and it is really well known in that area. They have excellent food and an old time Western atmosphere and Pat himself is an old time cowboy, and a descendent of Buffalo Bill Cody. Jeannie why don't you add to that. J: Everybody sings along up there and college kids and they like to sing along, the country is wonderful and the food is good, they have steaks and seafood, it is a fun place to go, beautiful ranches, beautiful valley, and there is hiking, fishing horseback riding everything that you would like to do in Wyoming. It is wonderful in the summer but don't be there in the winter. Winter is bad. Also we play at Burns Brothers on the freeway, on special occasions just outside of Winnemucca, and that is another fun place and we know all of the farmers and ranchers in this area. A lot of our friend from Winnemucaa, come down there and sing along. Edie even comes down there and sings along. When we come back there in the fall, our first date will be at Halloween and I want you Edie, to be there. It has been a pleasure to have this interview. W: It has been an honor. S: At this time Jeannie and Will, I would like to ask you to donate this tape to the Humboldt County Oral History Program and to the Country Music Foundation Association in Nashville. J: We would be very happy to do so. W: We would be happy and honored to do so. S: Jeannie and Will finished the tape with their song of Centenial Valley, Wyoming. Update: Jeannie and Will were preparing to return to Centennial, Wyoming for their twenty-third year at the Old Corral, when they got word that the place had burned to the ground.(May, 1992) It's being rebuilt and the new owner, (Pat Self-^had just sold the Old Corral) wants them to return next summer. 7 . .. . , . . .^ * P^ Jill d<^£- fit J&nuvmonc-as ^w0^<^ File C:\WP51\JWCARS0N.ESS JEANNIE AND WILL CARSON ORAL HISTORY TAPE I SIDE I

S: My name is Edie Swift and I am recording today with Jeannie Joy and Will Carson at their home in Unionville, Nevada and this is for the Humboldt County Oral History Program and the Country Music Foundation in Nashville, Tennessee. Jeannie and Will I would like to ask you about the year 1951, I believe you were with the Western Stampede, KOA in Denver and it was a radio program. Could you tell me all about the people who were on it and who you met there. J: We did met there Edie and Will had the band. They needed a girl singer and I auditioned for the part and I got it. It was fun and my maiden name was Jeannie Aaron and Jimmie Atkins the program director said we have to have a better name than that and he said I am going to rename you to Jeannie Joy and I have used that all these years. I really like the name and Jimmie is Chet Atkin's brother and Jimmie plays fine guitar and is a good singer and he was a good program director. S: Do you Will, want to tell them about the band and who was in it? W: Rocky Starr was the leader, technically and played lead guitar, and on accordion is Stanley Ruta and on steel was Elmer Kelton, on bass was Andy Aliano on drums was his son whose first name I can't remember. On that show we had Effie Snortblaster and I will let Jeannie tell you more about her and Ed, I can't think of his last name and he played honky-tonk piano. We had a square dance group, called some kind of twisters, and Pete Smyth was one of our M.C.s so that was just about the staff. J: Effie Snortblaster was tall and skinny as a rail and her adam's apple stuck out and she had this cooky hat and her hair was dishwater blonde and she played this real fine honky- tonk piano and sang. She was great and I really liked her. W: I forgot to mention Bob Love who was on the show and he and Effie married and became a duo. Effie's real name was Sylvia Rath. Sylvia was putting on an act she was a real fine piano player and they have been a duo, like Jeannie and I have for quite a few years, for a good many years travelling all over. S: Could you go into the type of music you were playing on the Western Stampede and then how the Western Stampede ended and what was your next job after that. W: We were playing Western music and it was a Western version.you might say of the Grand Olde Oprey. We stuck pretty much to Western Music, Western Swing, whatever was popular, we played a lot of the Sons of the Pioneers music and we had our square dancing which took us back down south. J: We did a lot of Eddie Arnold's songs and there was a lot of yodeling . I used to do a lot of yodeling and I liked Elton Britt and Slim Whitman and Gene Autrey and Roy Rodgers anybody who yodeled. W: And Rocky Starr he yodeled and we did three-part yodeling like the Sons of the Pioneers. J: Then the Western Stampede show, the sponsors wanted a different type of advertising, so that show wound down and KLZ wanted us for tv for a tv barndance show. FILE C:\WP51\CARS0NW.ESS

Will Carson's Oral History Recorded on April 9, 1988 Interviewed by E.S. Swift

ES: My name is Edie Swift and I am recording this morning with Will Carson at his home in Unionville, Nevada. The date is April 9th, 1988. I am recording this for the Humboldt County Library Oral History Program and the Country Music Foundation in Nashville. Will, when was your date of birth? WC: February 5. Do you want the year? 1921. S: What were your early influences of your family on your musical career? C: Both my mother and father were musicians and my mother was a concert pianist and my father played violin and he was a piano tuner, that was his profession. I heard a lot of music that way of course. They never insisted that I become a musician, I inherited the desire, to do so and my older brother, he played fiddle. I guess it was just in the blood. S: You played in school too. C: It was the first band that I played in and it was a country band down in Southern Illinois. It was a one room schoolhouse and the teacher played steel guitar and they called it a Hawaiian guitar back then, which was a little advancement of the dobre. We organized a little band. Some of the kids played mandolins and guitars and I was playing a banjo at the time. I was playing the banjo-uke, because I had plunked on a ukele because that was all that I could get my hands on in the way of a musical instrument and Gilbert Jones, my teacher, he is the one who provided the banjo-uke for me. He would bring it when we were going to play and that was my first experience playing with a group. Then I also borrowed a tenor guitar, and I guess that is when I switched over to a tenor banjo and I just plunked around on it for awhile. That was where I first got my start. It wasn't until the thirties that I got my own banjo and that was a tenor banjo, and drove my parents crazy and playing a tenor banjo like that you have to beat the dickens out of it. S: Why? C: Well I don't know, it isn't like a five string, you don't use your fingers on it, you use a plectrum and just to make it ring out, you have to work hard. S: What was a plectrum? C: A pick. S: After school, in the later thirties in Chicago, you were with the Dew Drop Drips, is that correct? W: Yes, those were some kids that I met in the neighborhood, the Conner Brothers, and Ralph played mandolin and George played rhythm guitar and I played tenor banjo. We did mostly crazy stuff, and we weren't good enough to produce actual music. S: What were some of the songs? C I really don't remember. I remember that I fixed my banjo so that it was on a little swivel on my belt buckle and every so often I would lean back and swing my banjo around and it would revolve. That is the only thing that I can remember. S: Where did you play?

Pagel C: This was on the south side of Chicago and we didn't play any performances, we just did it for our own amusement. That was the first group I was with other than the school group. S: The next job you had was in Frankfurt, Illinois. C: My brother and I both were working in a mushroom plant. There were two other brothers working there and they were musicians, and they were the Bobson brothers and Chuck played guitar and harmonica and his brother Vernon played the harmonica and the base fiddle. So my brother, who played fiddle, and I and the others formed a group, originally we were the Root Diggers because that was our job, digging mushrooms, but we changed it to the Frankfurt Hillbillies and we played a lot of interesting things, not much that we got paid much for. Of course, back in those days I was making nineteen and a half cents an hour so any job they would have paid us. We went to Chester, Illinois, where the state prison is, and played for the prisoners, and that was interesting and they really enjoyed themselves. They hopped around and shouted and wiggled. S: Who were the people who were influencing you in your music at this point in your life? C: The WLS National Barn Dance, out of Chicago and I listened to that all of the time and that influenced me and I liked them more than anything else. I think that my favorite was Louise Massey and the Westerners because they played more Western type music. They were very smooth. The Sons of the Pioneers were coming along then, and I hadn't heard much of them. The first time that I heard them on the radio they called them the Hometown Harmonizers, I don't know if that was their own name for themselves or if the radio station called them that. I liked them and I would say that they influenced me more than anyone else, atleast as far as the western part of it is concerned. S: Would you define Western music for me. C: It is about the West and cowboys, and tumbleweeds. S: How did this type of music evolve? C: I suppose the old cowboy songs that they sang around the campfire, it wasn't as glamorous as they have in the movies, and originally they played more banjos than anything else. They had a harmonica. There is a lot of Spanish influence on the Western music too. After all, the cowboys were influenced by the Spaniards, who were vaqueros, and that is where the word buckaroo comes from, the Spanish word, vaqueros, while country music is more influenced by early English music, like Elizabethan. Some of the songs in the WLS Songbook, a lot of those I recognize the words and originally they were songs from Elizabethan England. They changed them to fit in with the Southern United States. S: Was Western music also influenced by the English ballad? C: Some of them I imagine so, at least the melodies. They would take the melodies and set their own words to it. You hear some of those Western ballads and they have a ring to them like those old Irish tunes. I imagine that you could trace those back to the old country, too. Country Western Music is the music that our forefathers brought with them from the old country, and then they turned it into down-to-earth music of this country. S: When you were with the Frankfurt Hillbillies, you were working in different clubs, is that correct? C: We played picnics and things like that. S: How did you get the name Hillbillies? C: That is what that music was called in those days, the country music was hillbilly music. We just called ourselves the

Page 2 Frankfurt Hillbillies. S: Where does Hillbilly come from? C: I am not sure and I looked it up in the dictionary the other day and it is a term that is applied to Country and Western music and people from the hills. Hillbilly is a term that someone picked up and used it one time and it stuck. S: What type of people were you playing for in Frankfurt and what was happening economically in that community? C: We were right in the midst of a depression and the people who lived in that area were mostly German. That was in the southern part of the state, there weren't so many German people, that was farther south. Around here, that we are talking about now, there was a mixture of people, and we played to farm people and city folks and a section of every type of person I would say. S: Was it more of an agricultural community? C: Frankfurt was a small town, south of Chicago where they grew a lot of corn and wheat, or whatever; country music represents a cross-section of people and it appeals to so many groups, always has no matter where they were from. S: Then you moved on to another job after the Frankfurt Hillbillies? C: That was my first professional job and I was making nineteen and one half cents an hour working with a fork turning this fertilizer that came from horses all day long, back-breaking job and then I found out that I could make so much more, in one night than I could make in a month, there playing music in a nightclub, so I accepted an offer that was made to me to back up a guy by the name of Clayton Oats he was a big feller from the South, playing all of these old-time hillbillie songs. I switched to electric tenor guitar and that was the first one that I had ever seen and it was shaped like a banjo but it was amplified and it was the first amplified instrument that I have ever seen. I played it like a tenor banjo but it sounded like a guitar, and it was amplified and I backed up Clayton Oats and I am not sure who the other guy was who played base with me and quite a few of the other musicians came and went on that job. By then, the depression was over and we were getting into the war. I am not sure how that all ties in. S: How did you come to form this group? C: Which one? S: The Midwest Inn job? C: Clayton Oates offered me a job to back him up on tenor guitar and he already had this other fellow playing base with him so I just accepted the job and became part of that trio. S: Where were you playing out of? C: It was called the Midwest Inn, on West Madison Street. S: In Chicago? C: Yes. S: What was the name of your group? C: We didn't have a name for it, it was just Clayton Oates. My brother did work with us part time in there with us. S: What was his name? C: Mel. He played fiddle part time and I think, about then he went into the service. That is the place where this gang from WLS used to come in and where I met them all. My favorite guy of all was " rambling" Red Foley, because he had such a nice outgoing personality, and of course I loved his voice.

Page 3 S: Give me a background on him and a picture of his career. C: I really don't know a lot about him except he was on the WLS barndance. He played the role of Burrhead, he and Luli^belle teamed up, before she teamed up more permanently with Scotty, who she married and then they became a team, Lull^belle and Scotty. Then I backed them up. The group, the Prairie Ramblers used to come into there a lot, Salty Holmes and Tex Atchison played fiddle and Salty played the guitar. Who else used to come in there? Sometimes they would sit in there with us. The fellow who replaced Chet Atchison, Tex, went to Hollywood. Somebody made him an offer with the possibility of him becoming a western star. He was a very handsome guy and he never made it in pictures and I don't know why. The guy who replaced him, what was his name? S: Was Chet Atkins in on this too? C: This was another place, where we ran into Chet, it was a bit later. I met all these guys that I had listened to on the radio, I enjoyed so much being with them and playing, so I guess there was a lot of influence from them too. S: Would you describe each one of those guys as much as you know about them, where they came out of and what was their style? C: The Prairie Ramblers were kind of a cross between country and western, their vocalist, was Patsy Montana, you have heard of her. She was the first country western girl singer to have a national hit and that was I Wanna Be a Cowboy's Sweetheart. They backed her up and they sang four-part harmony. Chic Hirt played mandolin and banjo and Tex was on fiddle and Salty Dog Holmes was the bass player, and sorry, Jack, I can't remember your last name, played bass, and I forget who sang what part. They sang kind of a cross between country and western and a few spirituals, all that music on WLS was a mixture of different styles of music. S: Red Foley, what was his style and what was he like? C: He was really outgoing, when he walked in the room, his whole personality was really outgoing, you knew that old Red was there. He was a nice looking guy and had red hair of course, and there was a picture of him in that WLS Book, he sang very nice and he didn't have any twang, a nice baritone voice. S: Was he originally from Chicago? C: All these guys came from somewhere in the South and I am.not sure where Red is from originally. I knew he was from the South and he had an updated type of voice. His big hit was Chatanooga Shoeshine Bov and Tennessee Saturday Night, and Cincinnati's Dancing Pig. Red had a modern touch to him. S Modern? C: More like the pop music was instead of the hillbilly type of twang. He did a lot of cowboy songs too. He just had a nice rich voice. S: I wonder where that hillbilly twang came from, did it originate in the Southern United States, would you say. C: I would say so, I would say that it was left over from the old country, England. I guess it is just the natural way to sing, they never taught them to sing from their stomach, they just sang what came naturally and sang loud, so that they could be heard, and that was the way that it came out. S: Do you think there would be an influence of the Ozarks and the Appalachians in that twang? C: I suppose so. The Ozarks, and if you go back far enough they all sound the same. •H S: Red Foley went on to have a lot of other hits, didn't he? What were they? C: I remember the last one he had and someone was interviewing him on the radio, and he was so pleased that he had a hit again and he said,"I thought everybody forgot me". I think that was when rock was in because he lived right up into the sixties. S: What instrument did he play? C: Just rhythm guitar. S: What did Tex Atchison play? C: He played the fiddle. C: He played hoedowns and country fiddle. He was very good and sang well and composed songs. Red had a daughter who married Pat Boone. S: Was her name Shirley? C: She was probably just a baby when I knew him. C: I got to playing with another group. S: The Salt Creek Wranglers? C: This guy came along, Ernie Beck and asked if I would be interested in joining his group, Salt Creek Wranglers and he wanted a Spanish guitar and I was still on the tenor so I switched to the Spanish guitar. S: Why did he want the Spanish guitar? C: It is fuller. I was interested in it. I must have played one somewhere along the line, I knew enough cords to get by and I worked on it and got up on it so I could play everything. S How is that a different instrument than the tenor guitar? C It was tuned different and had more strings. S How many strings does it have? C The Spanish guitar has six strings, and is tuned altogether different. S: Is that why it is a fuller sound? C: It has bass strings under it and a lower "e" which gives it a nice deep sound. S: Did that originate in Spain, is that why it is called a Spanish guitar? C: Historically, yes. It probably has its roots back in some other instruments. Like even the Russian lute and I can't think of the name right now. When I was with Ernie Beck and the Salt Creek Wranglers, we backed up the WLS gang, and we were kind of their road band. We backed up LulL4belle and Scotty, who I mentioned later and we were on the Whitey Ford Show, the Duke of Paducah, and we went on the road with his shows. Who else was on that with us. Louise Massey and the Westerners and George Go^Dle who was quite famous on his own. He was a comedian and singer. S: What was his work like at that time? C: Well, mostly he just played guitar and sang and he was a singer. He had a sense of humor and he said some funny things now and then. S: You went with Whitey Ford on the road? C: We played with him whenever he would make a personal appearance. S: Where did you go? C: It was around that area, Northern Illinois. S: Tell me what the shows were like and what you did. C: Whitey Ford was a comedian he didn't play an instrument

Pace 5 that I know of. End of Tape I Side I Beginning of Tape I Side II

S: What did you do with the Salt Creek Wranglers and how did that name originate? C: I am not sure where Ernie Beck got the name the Salt Creek Wranglers and he was from somewhere out West, maybe somewhere where the Salt Creek ran through and he already had that act organized and I guess some of the guys went into the service or something like that when he hired me. Well, I just played rhythm guitar and played with the trio. And my brother Mel was with us on bass and fiddle. Ernie Beck doubled on bass and fiddle and he played mostly hoe-down fiddle so he played mostly bass, while my brother Mel played fiddle or violin. We had a little guy by the name of Danny Oriente on accordion and I was on rhythm guitar and that was it. Once we played in Cleveland at a club and from there went to Odgensberg, New York and were around the staff of radio station WSLB. We had a daily morning show and that was my first shot at radio. In those days all the radio stations had morning shows, and they called them wake-up shows. They came on at five or six in the morning and woke people up and got them going. I guess a lot of farm folk listened to those kind of programs. I am not too sure just how long we were on that. S: Are we talking about the early forties? C: Yes. S: The community that you were working around, these people were mostly farmers? C: I would say so because this was up in Northern New York, and Odgenberg was quite a small town then. I would say they were mostly farmers. I remember that it sure got cold up there and we walked to the station from where we were staying and one morning it was forty below zero and we walked to the station, and it was hard to get our fingers back into shape again to play. S: You were a backup group with the Salt Creek Wranglers? C: We were on our own then and it was just when we were with the WLS gang we were backing them up as well as putting on our own numbers too. S: Who was influencing you at this time? C: I was influenced by the Sons of the Pioneers at this time. I am quite sure that I was influenced by a guitar player on WLS, George Barnes, not to be confused with George Burns, he played the electric guitar, the first that I had ever heard and he was excellent. He went on to become internationally famous and went on to have his own show from coast to coast at one time. He was excellent on the guitar and played kind of country jazz. So he had a lot of influence on my style of playing, although I always made it a point to play my own style and I don't like to copy other people. S: How would you define your own style? C: My way of playing. Naturally, you are influenced by everyone that you have heard, subconsciously. S: What was country jazz? C: That was a term that I used on the spur of the moment, but it was a cross between, big bands were going then, and it was the kind of guitar that you would have heard with the big bands. He did country songs but he played them in that style. He also

Page 6 did classical and semi-classical things, and jazzed them up and did very well. S: Who were the big western stars at this time? C: Gene Autry, who started by the way on WLS and so did his old partner, Smily Burnett, and Gene was going strong then and Roy Rangers was already out there in Hollywood making pictures, he was one of the original members of the Sons of the Pioneers. His original name was Lyn Sly£, All those big stars from that period were going strong then. It would take too long to give you a complete rundown of all of them that came in at that same time, not to mention Tom Mix and Hopalong Cassidy'. S: Were they making movies yet? C: In the forties, they were making movies. Even in the thirties, Roy became a big star that he is in the thirties. S: Was this in 1942, before the war? C: Europe was already involved by then and it was shortly before Pearl Harbor. S: Does some of the music reflect this? C: Elton Britt's There is a Star Spangled Banner Waving Somewhere, that must have come a little later than that, and there were quite a few songs that had a military theme to them. I can't remember right off the bat what they might have been? I think that even Mv Filipino Babv. was later. S: Was there yodeling in any of the songs at this time? C: Many of the yodellers were going strong, Elton Britt and Gene Autry and Roy Ro^gers were excellent yodelmen and Slim Whitman. I can't remember right off the bat any girl yodellers. Patsy Montana did a little yodeling but none of that trick stuff. She did a one-note type of yodel. S: What was the tricky stuff? C: That triple tone stuff and Jeannie, my wife , used to do that, used to yodel up a storm because she was an admirer of those guys. S: How did the yodeling come into the music originally? C: I imagine that it came originally from Switzerland and I don't know who might have picked it up and used it originally in country music, but I imagine that is all on record. Hank Williams did some yodeling but he didn't do that triple type. I am sure there were fellows before him that did more yodeling. S: In the mid-1940 *s you had another job and would you talk about that and how that group came together and what happened there? C: After the Salt Creek Wranglers? I went back to Chicago and back to the Midwest Inn, and worked with another fellow there, a blind boy by the name of Bob Long and he sang very well, played rhythm guitar and he wrote some songs that were done on WLS and I joined forces with him and there was a fluctuation of our members at one time Chuck and Vern Bobson, the brothers that played with the Frankfurt Hillbillies. Vern played bass with us then. At another time my brother Mel played bass with us but I can't remember there was a turnover at that time and the guys were getting into the service, and I can't remember when I went to sign up but they made me 4f because I had a sugar imbalance. Bob Long was blind. Another pair of fellows were on WLS that I got to know quite well, Mac and Bob, they were singers on a duet that played mandolin guitar. They were both blind. S: What were their last names? C: Mac Davis but I can't think of Bob's last name. They stayed together because they were lifetime partners. I helped 7 them move one time and they had a great sense of humor about their blindness. They called themselves a bunch of blind whatever. I felt embarrassed but I guess that was the best attitude to take. I am proud of my stupidity. S: So you went back to that job for awhile, and the Midwest Inn, and then did you go to Waterloo, Iowa, along with Bob Long, the blind boy. C: I guess Josh Higgins, who owned that station, KXEL in Waterloo, I guess he was passing through that area, and he heard us and asked us if we would be interested in going there. I guess that was Vern Bobson on bass. We were the trio that was there first. There is where we had all kinds of radio programs and were called The Higgins Boys initially, and then we would play the early morning show and be the Higgins Boys and later in the day we had a show sponsored by Green Belt Beer and we were called the Green Belt Rangers. Another time, I played guitar with another group that was called the Hamms Ensemble that was sponsored by Hamms beer and we played all kinds of semi-classical stuff and popular and I did a lot of arranging for them too. They had George Timm on accordion and a gal who played tremendous fiddle and she could read music just like that, she could read her fast fiddle tunes off and we called her "Fiddling Jennie"and I can't remember her last name. We had another gentleman on viola or I think it was cello, well anyway that is all of that group that I can remember and there were about six of us. We were on that station for many years. S: It seemed that with those groups that you were with in Waterloo, Iowa, that there was quite a mix of different types of music and how did this come about? C: I guess, the program director was also our accordion player, George Timm and this particular group was sponsored by Grainbelt Beer. The Hamms Ensemble and that was the group in which we played semi-classical and pop, apparently the Hamms people wanted something in that line, for what reason I don't know, maybe they wanted to appeal to another type of person. S: What were the people like in your radio audience? C: It was Waterloo, Iowa and that was farm country and it was especially back in those days, most of them were farm folk. S: Were you near a university? C: None that I know of. Not real close. A lot of the WLS crew used to come and be guests on the KXEL, like Arky, "The Arkansas Woodchopper." S: Who was he? C: He was a WLS member, and originally from Arkansas. He was a humorous type fellow and he played and sang, funny type of country songs. S: Do you know his full name? C: No, I can't think of his last name. We just called him Arky. S: Were there some other guests that came on KXEL that you would like to mention? C: We had another fellow by the name of Danny Baker, who would show up later in my life and he was a solo singer and played guitar. We had three little black girls and they were called the Jubilee Singers, they were just teenagers and they sang negro spirituals and did a beautiful job and they were just lovely and great to work with. S: Where were they from originally?

Page 8 C: I think that they were originally from Waterloo. S: Waterloo, Iowa. C: As far as I know. We had George, the accordion player and he was originally on that show. We would all jam together and also Judy Perkins, a gal singer from somewhere in the South and she joined the staff, and she and I would sing duets together. From there she went on to have her own network show, somewhere in Indiana. S: Was it true that women weren't doing as much as they are now in Country music? C: Yes, not as much but there were quite a few groups, individuals like WLS had quite a few gals, trios and soloists and we had "fiddling Jenny" on KXEL and Judy Perkins and the three Jubilee Singers and what other gals did we have. A lot of acts came and went, while we were there, too. One of them was a four piece group and I can't remember their name now. They tried to fashion themselves after the Sons of the Pioneers and they sounded a little bit like them. The one fellow that was a yodeller with them went on to be quite good at yodeling, in fact one of the top ones in the country but he never made it big for some reason or another. I am sorry, I can't think of his name, and it may be Kenny Baker, he showed up somewhere in his own program in the Midwest. S: You mentioned that you did a lot of arranging for this group. What did that entail? C: Well just writing out the parts for the various instruments, violin and accordion not that I was all that good at music, but I would write the lead notes in, and the only one I remember, because we still do that, Jeannie and I. is the Brahms Hungarian Dance No. 5, I did a jazzed up version for the other group. Do you want to stay here at KXEL or go on to the next group and station? S: Generally, when you were at KXEL, what was happening in Nashville and was the Grand Old Oprey on, and did this influence you? C: I don't think so, I never listened too much of the Grand Old Oprey, like I said the WSL Barn Dance was the one that influenced me most as far as country music, I don't think that I ever heard the Grand Old Opry in those days. S: Was it on radio? C: I am not sure if that was Network or not? S: What was going on there and do you know who was playing on the Opry at that time. C: Unless you went back through the records and I am sure that it is all recorded. S: On radio, nationally, what type of music was being played? C: In the country music? S: Yes. C: Country music was and there was a lot of Western Music too. I think that was when Western music was just in its heyday then. S: Sons of the Pioneers? C: Yes. S: Who were some of the groups that were being played nationally? C: Sons of the Pioneers and Jimmy Wakely had a trio that was very smooth, the Jimmy Wakely Trio. The Ranch Boys had an old cowboy trio out of WLS and they were network. Then there was

Page 9 Riders of the Purple Sage, and Louise Massey and the Westerns and they had their own programs. There were so many of them. Of course, Bob Wills, Western Swing. S: Did that start with him? C: Bob was the originator of Western Swing. S: When did he start to record? C: Back in the thirties. Paul Harvey used to be the announcer on that radio show and I am not sure just what year. S: Did the big band era have a definite impact on Bob Wills? C: I have some tapes right here of his later recordings and he has a brass section, with saxophones, and it sounds like a big band playing western swing with Bob going "ah, ah," in the background and it is really quite unique. I personally didn't like it as well as when there were strings. S: This was mid-1940's that you were at KXEL and there were some other types of music that were being played nationally that might have impacted the Western music at this time? C: The big bands were going strong then and even they did a lot of Western songs, let me see, and then I suppose there was an interchange too I suppose because a lot of the Western groups got their ideas of their rhythms from the bands too and their way of playing. S: There was a time when historically in Chicago that a lot of black people moved up from the South, that was long before the forties, and wasn't there a school of jazz in Chicago, that was being developed? C: I don't know if it was separate though from any other jazz? S: That might have influenced the Western music also. C: You bet, that is all throughout country music.

End of Tape I Side II Beginning of Tape II Side I

S: Later in the 1940's you were a member of the Saddleridge Buckaroos, sponsored by the Ford Dealers on station WXYZ, can you tell me about that group and what you did? C: Paul Young came down from Detroit, Michigan and he heard us and he wanted to know if we would be interested in a better deal than we were getting in Waterloo, and he offered us more money and so we were sent up there, Bob Long and Vern Bobson. Vern didn't go he didn't want to travel anymore. My brother Mel was with us then. My brother, Mel, played bass and fiddle, and we were sponsored by the Ford Dealers, on station WXYZ, and we also played at the country club, called Saddle Ridge, so we were called the Saddle Ridge Buckaroos. Who all did we consist of besides, Bob Long and my brother Mel. We had Elmer Thompson on the accordion, and we had Jumbo Druin on fiddle, and he was a little Frenchman and we always called him Jumbo. Jumbo was about four feet one inch tall and had a big black moustache, and played the dickens out of the fiddle. Paul Young, himself, was in the group. What was the bosses's name and he was a big shot among the Ford dealers and his daughter was our vocalist. Harry Mack was his name his daughter, Jenny was our vocalist. So we did a daily show and then at night went out to the Saddleridge Club and

Page 10 S: Before you go into that don't forget about the Shiveree. J: We got married and we thought we will just have a quiet marriage ceremony, the Justice of the Peace, and I got all dressed up with a white skirt and a white blouse and a turquoise necklace and we were walking up to the home of the Justice of the Peace and a black cat walked in front of us and I thought I don't know if I want to do this or not. Then we got married and Saturday night was show time at the Tabor Theatre but KOA originated in the studio but it became so popular that we went to the Tabor Theatre so that the public could enjoy it. So they really packed that theatre and Will and I are supposed to be singing a duet and so we started out and the band started playing the wrong notes and we rehearsed this and I knew we were in the right key and they still played the wrong notes and I said this is going out to forty-eight states and this is terrible. And then they got pots and pans and they are all walking around on the stage banging these pots and pans and the crowd just roared and were clapping their hands and I was trying to hide behind Will and he said don't hide behind me. You are the one who likes excitement, get out and enjoy that. S: So that was 1951, you started with the Western Stampede and KOA you finished up on which date? J: I forget the exact date but it was 1953. W: We finished up in 1953, 1954 and went on to the Rocky Mountain Barn Dance, the tv show. S: That was KLZ. J: Yes. S: That was in Denver. You could tell me all about that and the music you were doing, and who was on there. J: We were doing the same type of music there and Star Yelin, was the announcer there and he didn't think much of western music and he thought that was a real drag but he had to be the announcer so he had to go with it. W: He was a good announcer but it just wasn't his thing. J: It worked out alright and then they would have comedy guys come in and they would talk about the weather and they were real clever and did a nice job and there were square dancers there. W: We had Stan Ruta on accordion, Elmer Kelton on steel guitar and my brother Mel on bass and Bob Love on fiddle and I believe that was it for the band. J: Will was also on another part-time radio show during the day. I was working at the telephone company, that was my full- time job. Will said one of the band members used an incorrect word. In those days if you used an incorrect word, they would cut you off the air, they couldn't pull the control button fast enough. W: I can't even remember the show but I remember when he used this four letter word right on the air. J: I am sure the program director got the word from the sponsors S Was the barn dance on Saturday night? J: Yes. S What was your routine to get ready for that. J: You would get there early so you could run through your program again, your final rehearsal. You had to go early to get PAGE 2 it was a fun time and they had horses, and it was a Western type of club. It was outside of Detroit. Since they like Western and riding, they decided to move down to Dallas, Texas, so off to Dallas, Texas we went. S: With the Saddle Ridge Buckaroos, you were in Chicago? C: Detroit, Michigan. S: Were you influenced at all with the music coming out of Detroit? C: Not all. I wasn't even aware of what kind of music was going on in Detroit. Not any different than anywhere else. S: There might have been a lot of black people who were singing in Detroit at that time. C: I don't remember that it was that much on the air or anything. I think that we were playing so much ourselves that we didn't have time to listen. The evenings we were at the club and in the morning we were at the early morning show. So we probably slept a lot during the day. S: What type of people did you entertain at the club. C: They were all Ford dealers and their wives and Henry Ford II would come out there and some of the big shots from the Ford Company would come out there. It was strictly a private club. S: Just for the executives and the dealers. C: I don't know why we were all going to move to Dallas, but that was what the idea was. The thing fell through and here we were in Texas. S: That was late 1940's? C: The war was going strong then. S: The group that was on staff there at WFAA had just gone to Hollywood to join Gene Autry as his band, so a lot of these Gene Autry movies you see these three fellows singing in back of them and what do you call them, ranch something or other so they hired us, the Saddle Ridge Buckaroos, to be on staff and replace them and changed our name to the Dude Ranch Buckaroos, so we were no longer connected with the Ford people but we were strictly working for WFAA. And we stayed on there I am not sure how long. C: Did your music change with your new job? S: We were doing strictly Western for the dealers, like I say they like the Western atmosphere, and down in Dallas we stuck with Western music too. I was playing lead guitar then. I am not sure when I switched from rhythm to lead guitar, whatever the situation called for, some jobs I would have to play rhythm and sometimes they would need the lead. S: Would you define what lead guitar is and rhythm guitar is? C: You are playing the melody on the guitar now like I do and Jeannie is playing the rhythm. S: What were some of the songs that you were singing at that time? C: Some of my own original songs were whatever Western songs were popular at the time, ones that Sons of the Pioneers might have been singing. I can't remember any particular ones. S: It is different today than it was then? You really had to watch what you said in the songs and they were very sensitive to language and content, would you make a comment on this? C You just took it for granted that you had to be careful what you sang. S: What was happening in Dallas, Texas, and what were the people listening to you like, what socio-economic groups were

Page 11 they from and what ethnic groups? C: I really don't know because we were strictly on the air and whoever was listening on the air, and Dallas was a pretty big city so I imagine that most of our listeners were city folk. Of course, it was a fifty thousand watt station and reached out over the state, so. .. S: What was the big economy at that time in Dallas? C: I guess oil and ranching. Everything seemed to be going real good there, despite the war. I can't remember what happened here now but my brother Mel and I joined up with Danny Baker, who I mentioned was on KXEL, and we formed the Danny Baker Trio and I left the Buckaroos, the Dude Ranch Buckaroos and we went to Chicago and played some nightclubs there and Danny had an ability to impersonate other singers. So we would do imitations of the Inkspots and Sons of the Pioneers, and various groups of that sort and the Mills Brothers, and that was one of our things, imitating other groups. We did our own three-part harmony. S: Were you living in Chicago and did you travel from Dallas to Chicago? C: We moved to Chicago. S: What were the audiences like? C: We played all nightclubs. I remember one nightclub that we worked in called Roughnecks, on the North side, it was a high class place and it was strictly city people and Western music was going strong too. Back in those days lots of people looked down their noses at Country music calling it hillbillie music. S: Did you have dancing at that club and there is a strong German tradition in Chicago, it is a very multi-ethnic city and there are a lot of Polish people and a mix of different groups, did they dance the schottische? C: They just did what was popular at the time, foxtrots, bogies and I suppose once and awhile someone would get out and cut a rug on something. It was what was popular at the time, waltzes and what have you. I was tired of Chicago and I wanted to go back out West, so I left and went back to Dallas, and I joined up with a group called Bob Manning and the Riders of the Silver Sage, and that was his own name for the group and he already had these other fellows hired and I am not sure how or why he went about forming this group, and he needed a lead guitar player and that was me. We worked for the Interstate Theatres, who owned those theatres all over Texas and we played personal appearances all over their state all the way down to the Mexican border, well, just every major city in Texas, and that was now into the late forties, and early fifties. S: Tell me about different funny incidents that happened as you travelled around and how you travelled, what was your schedule on the road and what did you eat and did you eat the Tex-Mex food and how is Southern Texas different from Northern Texas? C: I didn't notice any difference, the Southern part had more Hispanic folks and the food was not different than anywhere else. S: In the state of Texas, do they eat the traditional Southern food, hush puppies, and .. C: Not so much as farther East, although Texas is known for its chili but I don't remember eating any chili. S: How abut grits? C: No, grits. Texas was getting up there pretty modern. Page 12 S: What did you travel in? C: We had a couple of cars. We all piled in there, and I forget who drove. I could tell a funny incident here, what happened with this group and we were staying in a room somewhere and we would all share the room and the bed, and stayed as economical as possible, I got to the edge of the bed and I wondered what was this horrible smell, and I found out that this kid that played steel with us had left his shoes there with his socks in them and the socks had a strong odor(laugh). I don't think that he ever washed them the entire journey. I was trying to remember some of the names of the fellows, there, Bobby was a steel player, steel guitar, he went on to play with some of the big bands. Much later in life, Jeannie and I were playing in Elko, Nevada, and there was a group playing and there was Bobby. The guy that played rythmn guitar was Johnny, I can't think of his last name, we called him "High Pockets" he was about six foot four. The kid that played bass, he was very short, so we had this great big tall guy and this little short guy. And we all got along great and it was a fun time. S: What did you all wear? C: We wore the most garish Western cowboy outfits that you can imagine. I think you saw some of those pictures. You saw me looking horrible, that was probably with Bob Manning, and he had his own uniforms made up. S: What was your music like at this time? C: We were playing strictly Western music. We were Riders of the Silver Sage. I remember we played this audience once and one kid called us Riders of the Slippery Stage. S: You were influenced most by the Riders of the Purple Sage? C: Mostly by Sons of the Pioneers. I think all of these years I was hoping to become a member of a group similar to them. There seemed to be such a camaraderie amongst the Pioneers although maybe there really wasn't, but it seemed like a good life, the kind of music they did. S: Did you have any incidents where there were floods or storms where it made it hard for you to travel. C: I can't remember any problems like that when I was travelling on the road. Later on Jeannie and I did but not with this group. S: Tell me about Bob Manning and what was he like? C: He was a nice gentle fellow. He played rhythm guitar and sang the lead and he wrote a couple of songs, I don't think that he ever got very famous. I have a sheet of music with one of the songs that he wrote, and where he came from originally from Texas, I never heard from him after that. S: How did the audiences dress, since you were in the state of Texas? C: I guess what was common in those days, no different than anywhere else? S: You didn't see cowboy boots? C: There were some cowboys around, but they didn't outnumber the other people. S: There were Mexican-Americans around? C: Quite a few, we would play on some of those border towns and we would cross over into Mexico, to visit and there wasn't much difference between the Mexican side and the American side. S: Did you go to many of the Mexican fiestas? C; Not there. Page 13 S: At other times in Texas? C: No. We were always too busy unless we were playing at them. I can't remember any event of that sort that we played in Texas. I wanted a group that was like the Sons of the Pioneers, more vocals and harmony, so I went to Albuqueque, and formed my own band there, and we played at the Peacock Lounge, and I called the band the Nightriders of all things, because "nightriders" is what they call the Klu Klux Clan of all things. Nobody seems to notice it. I never had heard of it used for that purpose. We played kind of a cross between Western and Popular and Country because it was a dance club, I had a piano and a guy on sax and I can't remember any of the members. It wasn't a very long lasting job. S: Tell me a little more about Albuqueque, and the people that you performed for were they in mining. C: I am not sure there was much mining at that time. The Los Alamos thing was a big thing then. S: Did you get a lot of the service men in there, because we are talking late forties and early fifties. C: There were a lot of Hispanics there and there was not much difference between people that you find anywhere else. I never noticed a lot of difference between people in all my travelling, the only difference would be their southern accent or their northern accent. But otherwise they are just people. S: Did the rock and roll influence you at this time? C: It wasn't in yet, we are still in the forties. Rock and roll never did that to me. I went up to Santa Fe and I had a fifteen minute show of my own and I did all folksongs and folk music was real popular at that time, Burl Ives. The station owner and manager of KVSF asked me if I would be interested in joining the staff and becoming an announcer and a newscaster, so I said yes, and I had a fling at that without having any experience. My first day that I took over it was the day of the Santa Fe Fiesta, and they turned the radio station over to me and I just had a general idea how to work it. Even in the station I could hear the yelling and celebrating, and in a way they had a wild time. I turned the radio station off and waited until the clock caught up with me. But I got through the night somehow and I don't think that anybody was listening anyhow. S: What was this event? C: It was the Santa Fe Fiesta, like they have in New Orleans. S: Mardi Gras. C: It is a Spanish version of it. I couldn't attend it because I was on the radio station. The thing about that too, is there was a Hispanic announcer who came on the air after I did. I opened the thing up and did the news and this Hispanic fellow, his name was Jose Gonzales, he would ride up on a burro and park outside the studio and get off the mule and tie it up and crawl through a window and I would turn it over to him for the Hispanic hour. Jose Gonzales. From there, I ran into a fellow that I should have mentioned earlier, maybe I should have mentioned him earlier when I was with Ernie Beck and the Salt Creek Wranglers, in New York, a fellow by the name of the Calgary Kid, and his name was Allan Irwin, not to be confused with Irwin Allan, he was half Indian and he came from Canada, and he sang and played guitar and fiddle and none of it very good, but he was going into the service, or

Page 14 what and he wanted to sell his wardrobe and everything that he had, he asked if we might be interested in it so we bought everything that he had for a pittance. So later on when I was on this KVSF, who should walk in the studio but the old Calgary kid, he talked me into going to Hollywood with him and he had done some bit parts. He woke me up one night, I had just got to sleep and he said you have got to come to the movie with me, there is a movie with me in it and we sat through this class c western and he said, "Just wait, pretty soon you will see me in it." I am sitting there half asleep. By then the star and the sidekicks are chasing an outlaw across the desert, and they come to this guy standing there and here is the Calgary Kid, he had a big grin on his face and he points, and he said, "They went thataway." And that was his part. End Tape II, Side I Beginning Tape II, Side II S: The Folk Music Movement surely influenced Western music, could you tell me about that? C: Well, I suppose so, but I guess it was an interchange, Western music probably affected folk music too because, these old Western ballads were folk songs, because the traditional songs date way back and there was an interchange so I don't think, I couldn't put my finger on how it influenced Western music, but I liked folk music and I was quite fascinated by it. Whatever was popular at the time, in the way of folk music, I did that. S: Who were the groups who were the most influential of the Western groups? Who were the groups doing Western music that influenced the folk music? C: Burl Ives of course, and I think this was before Peter, Paul and Mary came along. Probably about the same time but not exactly. I really can't say what other influences there were. S: Was the Kingston Trio around? C: I am sure that they were popular about that time too. S: We are talking about the early fifties? C: Yes. S: When you were at KVSF in Santa Fe, what was your audience like, did you have any ethnic groups in the audience? C: I got a lot of letters requesting numbers and most of them were from the local indians, who were mostly Pueblos and I imagine Zunis and what other did we mention? S: Perhaps Hopis and Zunis. C: A lot of them had moved to the city. This Calgary Kid, talked me into going to Hollywood, and for some strange reason, I took him up on the deal, and we went around and he introduced me to all types of people and another bit player and I shared a room there, and I remember this one guy, he had a job, and he had a call to play a bit part in a movie and he didn't have the right tie to wear, and I happened to be wearing a Western tie and he borrowed that thing. I have never been in a movie myself but one of my neckties, is in a movie. So the Calgary Kid took me around to Paramount, that is the studio that made all the Gene Autry movies, so he drove in and he had a card and the guy at the gate let him go in, and he pulled up with his trailer and the first guy there was Hugh Farr, of the Sons of the Pioneers, and boy I was rally impressed and I was a fan of the Sons of the Pioneers and I was fond of his base singing and his fiddle playing (Hugh' s) . Hugh and the

Page 15 Calgary Kidd, went inside in the trailer, because these people working on these lots had their trailers so that they could change their clothes so I waited outside and they went inside and had a talk and then Calgary came out with a big grin on his face and we went on our way, and he started singing "I owe, I owe, everybody I know, ." He had borrowed money from Hugh Farr, so next we go to another fellow. He raises up and he is taking a nap, out in the sun, and it is Rod Cameron, he is a great big tall movie actor, he did the same thing with him. As we got away from Rod, the Calgary Kid started singing,"I owe, I owe." We got to the third trailer and who was there but Roy Rogers, he did the same thing, the Calgary Kidd had borrowed money from Roy. In the meantime, there were all these movie actors and bit players, supporting actors and actresses, and I knew them real well from seeing them on the screen, and I was really impressed and it really threw me. S: Were they filming at that time? C: Yes. There was some shooting going on in some other part of the lot? There was this one girl, Ilona Massey I don't know if you remember her or not, lovely gal and she comes by and gives me a wink, and I nearly passed out. Calgary kid arranged for me to have an interview with, what movie studio was it, one of the big movie studios and I went in there and they gave me an audition, they gave me this script and the thing involved me playing a role against some gal, so I did my best , to memorize it and Milton Lewis was the fellow in charge, so he introduced me to this young actress, gorgeous young thing and I was movie struck in those days, I was helpless and I couldn't think of my lines and I had to read them. I was so impressed and here I am faced with a movie actress, so Milton Lewis called me in after that. He said, "I am going to give you some advice. My best advice to you is to go back where you came from and forget about being a movie actor." He said, "I see you play guitar, would you like to come in and audition as a guitar player and singer?" C: I said, "O.K. Sir." I never did. I wouldn't have been able to play a note. I was just too scared. Then I met a guy and he was fresh out of Canada, Newfoundland and he was forming a band and he needed a guitar player and his name was Hank Snow, so that is when I joined Hank Snow and his band. Who did we have in there? Freddy Cianci was on the fiddle. Hank called us the Rainbow Ranch Boys and he had uniforms made for us with a big rainbow on the back. We traipsed all over the West and Canada, backing up Hank Snow. One time, Hank lived in a vehicle that had a living quarter in it plus a stable for his horse. This kid that was driving for him, got in a fight with Hank and he quit and Hank took over the driving of that and I took over driving Hank's cadillac. One of the jobs we played was in Reno, Nevada, and something about it, Reno was a small town, I had a feeling about it that this is where I am going to end up, which I did much later, so Hank went to Nashville from there and the .. S: Tell me a little more about Hank Snow and what type of a man he was and what did he look like and who most influenced him music-wise. C: He was a small fellow. He was in his forties then and that was back in the fifties, he was no spring chicken and he was a tough little guy and he told later on the air, he supported this child abuse thing, and when he was a child he was abused. It showed on him and he was pretty ornery and he had a dog with

Page 16 him, a german shepard and he used to be real mean with that dog, I almost got in a fight with him because he beat the dog for no reason I know of. Hank wanted to fight me and he was a little shrimp of a guy. I said, "Hank, I don't want to fight with you." He had a girlfriend with him, and he didn't treat her very well and Rose was her name. He was divorced and he had a son, Hank Snow, Jr. I never met him but he was mentioned often. I think that he was influenced a lot by Hank Williams, because he did a lot of that sort of thing. He was rather original and played quite good lead guitar, although mostly he did the singing and I did the backup. Other than that, that is all I can say for him and he went on to become a big name. S: Where did you go travel with him? C: All through the West and up into Western Canada. We played in a small town in Wyoming. They had no place to put us up so some of the local people offered to put us up in their places. S: Were the roads any good at that time? C: Once and awhile we would get off onto the dirt roads. S: Did you have some bad experiences with the roads, C: I took up with them in the spring, and I travelled with them all one summer. S: What year was that? C: That was either 1951 or 1952. I have reason to remember that particular date, and I might as well mention here that I might be a little off in my timing, with these past things, my chronology might be off, because it is hard when you travel so many places, with so many different groups over so many different years. So anyway, after we came back from one tour back to California, the guys in that band wanted to quit Hank Snow and just form their own group and go off on their own, but I decided to stay with Hank and so we picked up two other guys and one of them was Bob Love, on the fiddle and the other fellow whose name I can't remember and he played base and we sang harmony with the trio and so we did some road work with Hank until Hank got this offer to go to Nashville and he left. Bob and I and this other fellow, for awhile we worked as a trio and then Bob and I went off on our own, as a duo and I played rythmn guitar and we sang and Bob played Fiddle and we played mostly through Wyoming, Jackson Hole and Sheridan and Wyoming, and I forget how many different places and I forget the date, because this one winter was one of the worst winters in recorded history in that part of the country, one of the worst blizzards and we were stuck in that somehow. We were leaving Sheridan and going to play a job, in Rawlins, Wyoming and Bob thought he knew a shortcut instead of taking the highway which would have been a roundabout way. So we took this dirt road and the blizzard was pretty well over by then, and we had a jeep and after awhile Bob realized he didn't know where we were. So we came into a small town and I can't tell you the name of it. It was a small wide place on a dirt road, in old Wyoming and we went in a bar, and all these little towns always have bars, and all these guys sipping beer and smoking and telling stories and we told them our tale, and we said we were trying to make our way to Rawlins and could you gentlemen tell us how to get there. One fellow said " You go down the road a piece and turn here and another guy interrupts him and says,"No, you go this way and when you come to this other road." Then another guy jumps in and says, " No, you are both

Page 17 wrong." The first thing I know they are all in a big argument. Bob and I were sitting waiting for something to happen and they forgot all about us. Bob and I said,"Lets sneak out and we did. I wonder if to this day those guys are sitting there and arguing. We somehow found our way to Rollins as that was our next spot, because we played there quite a bit. Then we went on to Denver and joined forces with an accordion player by the name of Jackie Latch and another base player whose name I can't remember, and we played some nightclubs around Denver. At that time, my brother Mel, was on the radio station, KNAX, Yankton, South Dakota, he was a member of a group called the Westernaires which consisted of Lou Proett on accordion, and Eddie, I can't think of his last name. Lou Proett, the accordion player got a chance to join the Horace Height show, which was a contest, for the best musician on the various instruments, and got on that and won the national prize as the best accordion player in the United States, and then Eddie left and Mel needed a couple of replacements. So Bob Love and I went- out there to Yankton, South Dakota, and became the Westernaires and we were on staff there for I don't know how long. I will mention later that at this time, a certain young lady by the name of Jeannie Aaron, was a member of a riding group in Lakewood Colorado, called the Westernaires, which was kind of coincidental because we would meet later. After KNAX, Bob and I went back to Denver, and we decided to try to start a program on KOA, a Western thing, because KOA was a fifty thousand watt station. With Jackie Latch again, the accordion player, that other fellow on base that travelled with Bob and I earlier, we went and auditioned on KOA, and the program director and the other guys liked the idea very much and they were going to go ahead and have this Saturday Night barn dance sort of thing, but about then, KOA was sold to another outfit, I don't know the name of the outfit that bought it, or the ones that owned it originally, and there was an entirely different staff and the program director was Jimmi* Atkins, brother to guitarist Chet Atkins, and I had known JimmlLp slightly back in the early days when he was on WLS. They also liked the idea of a Saturday night barn dance but they wanted a different type of format for it than the other outfit would have had. They hired several other people to be on this show. They hired Rocky Starr to be the front man and lead singer and Pete Smyth^ who is known in the area and still broadcasting. We had various others, we had Andy Arxano on base and his son on drums and we had a ragtime piano player by the name of Ed something or other and we had a gal on the piano by the name of Effie Snortblaster, and that was what we called her and her real name was Sylvia Rath she would later marry Bob Love and become Sylvia Love of course. Then we had a square dance group and various other things, it was quite a show and was called the Western Stampede and it was broadcast, all over the West, not on network, but KOA reaches out quite far. We needed a girl singer so we auditioned this young lady by the name of Jeannie Aaron. She was accepted and JimmA^ Atkins changed her name to Jeannie Joy. She became our vocalist. S: I was interested Will, in when the Rocky Mountain Barn Dance, came about and how it got that name and about some of the stars that were on there. C: I am quite sure that it was 1952 that it began. Pete Smytheused to have his own program called East Tin Cup, he was the Mayor of East Tin Cup, a legendary place, he was a master of

Vane 18 ceremonies and Rocky Starr was the lead singer, and leader of the band, and Rocky was the leader of the band and had an outgoing personality, and a strong voice and I am not sure where he came from originally, I imagine that he is a native of Denver and we did a lot of appearances. Effie Snortblaster, Sylvia Wrath married Bob Love eventually and they are now a duo and they travel all over playing in nightclubs in Vegas and Reno. The other persons on that show like Andy Arriano, and his son, on drums and I can't think of his first name, they were just local musicians. We would have guest stars now and then, people from Hollywood and the only one that I can remember is Katy Jurado, and people of that caliber. S: What was the type of music that you were doing at this time? C: It was strictly Western, because after all it was Western Stampede, we had the square dancers and we played hoedowns a lot too. I am trying to think of the fellow who played fiddle with us. I would say a combination of country and western with an emphasis on the western again, although there was comedy stuff like Effie would do on the piano and sing these funny little songs parodies and so on. She would dress in old- fashioned clothes with a big high hat on. Ed, the ragtime piano player would play ragtime piano and we would back him up on banjos and drums. It was rather a combination, but the accent was on western. S: Can you tell me about your career in composing and I believe that started in the late 1940's and some of the songs that you wrote.

End of Tape II Side II Beginning of Tape III Side I

C: On KOA I wrote the theme song which was called Call of the Rockies, and also our closing number, The End of the Trail. and also I wrote a song called, Rockaby Boogie, the band did that with Rocky Starr conducting and singing lead, and we submitted a tape of that to RC Victor, and they accepted it and it was recorded by Glenn Millers vocal group The Modernaires, and they recorded it and it became quite a hit back in those days, it was also recorded by the Davis sisters, and several other people. Any songs beyond that we want to save for later on because it involved another person. The first song that I ever wrote that we did on the air was when we were on WFAA in Dallas, Texas, when I was one of the Dude Ranch Buckaroos, we did several of my songs there. right off, what were the names of them, If I had a Million, was one of them and Meet me By the River. Way back in Waterloo, Iowa, we did a lot of my songs too, that is when I wrote that one, Meet me by the River. Then some of the other songs were, When I said Goodbye to the Valley, none of them became hits so I just forgot about them, until more recently when I got into writing more seriously. S: Will, will you donate this tape to the Country Music Foundation in Nashville, Tennesee and the Humboldt County Library Oral History Program in Winemucca, Nevada.

Page 19 C: I would be honored, S: Thank You.

Page 20 set up and make sure that your instruments are in tune and everybody is there and general preparation. S: If you could tell me how this Barndance job finished and how you went on to the Arthur Godfrey Competition. J: We were playing nightclubs in various parts of the town and special fairs and rodeos and a lot of side music and the Arthur Godfrey Show came to Denver for the talent show. His crew came first and they advertised it and we were one of the acts. They had the main show in Denver, and we won the show . It was during the Cheyenne Frontier Days, the show in Cheyenne, Wyoming that Arthur Godfrey was there for a week so we were on his show for a week. Pat Boone was there and some sisters. W: I was trying to think of their name. I am sorry that I just can't remember their name. J: They broadcast it from the Hitching Post. That is a nice place in Cheyenne. Arthur Godfrey was a real nice man. He had fiery red hair and he was pudgy. The main advertisement was Lipton Tea and they always had ice tea there for me. It was hot and you would take a taste of this tea and go "Ah". W: Not on the air. J: He would make fun of the commercials, and that is what everyone liked about him. In those days you didn't dare do things like that but he did. He would poke fun at the commercials and get away with it. W: Brother Mel was there, by the way, in the trio. J: The song that we sung on the Arthur Godfrey Show was "It only Hurts for a Little While." S: How did you win the contest, what was the song you sung? J: That was the song we sang. For the Cheyenne Program, we did all Western songs. W: A lot of original songs. J: Will had one of his songs"Ride the Wild Wind". You couldn't say things like "dirty." W: One of the lyrics was, I cut my teeth on the dirty old saddle horn but Arthur Godfrey said that you can't say that. We had to change that word and that really threw us because we were used to saying that in the song. We had to really concentrate on that not to say dirty. S: That was 1955, the Arthur Godfrey Show. J: From there we decided to go to Los Angeles, California, because to cut records because Will had a lot of original songs. We made a lot of demonstration records and it is with a major company and we better not say because they borrowed our songs. W: They borrowed our songs permanently. J: They were copyrighted but you change eight bars and there is nothing that you can do about it. W: They made rock versions out of them and different groups recorded them, eighteen songs altogether. J: We did cut a song that Will wrote the melody and a truck driver by the name of Ed Keel wrote the words, a song called "Sin Ti" and that means without you. We cut that record and it went on Gene Autrey's film label and I met Gene Autrey and he liked the song and it was regarded as the Record of the Month on the Jim Ameche show. W: It was a Los Angeles station and I don't remember the call letters but Jim Ameche was the DJ in those days. That was

PAGE 3 File C:\WP51\JEANNIEJ.ESS JEANIE JOY'S ORAL HISTORY RECORDED ON MAY 10, 1988 INTERVIEWED BY E.S.SWIFT.

Oral History of Jeannie Joy- horsemanship- Swift: My name is Edie Swift and we are at Unionville, Nevada and I am recording with Jeannie Joy today and the date is May 10th, 1988 and we are recording for the Humboldt County Library Oral History Program, and the Country Music Foundation in Nashville, Tenessee. Jeannie, I would like to talk to you about your growing up and I would like to talk to you about your career as a horsewoman and you have done very well in that field and would you tell me how you started. J: I grew up in Lakewood, Colorado and was born on July 8th, 1931 and I am 56 years old and now I am an antique. I bought my first horse when I was nine years old, and I bought it from the Genesee Fox Farm outside of Denver and I payed a cent and a half a pound for it. She was a black mare, about fifteen hands tall and she was a good horse for a young kid, who didn't know anything about a horse. I had a halter and a bridle and I didn't have a saddle and I rode bareback. I would get going down the road really having a good time and every driveway she would turn into and I would fall off. After you fall off in these driveways all up and down you start to learn how to hang on, the mane your knees, anything. I saved up my money and bought my first saddle and it was a Mclellan saddle, and I thought that was really swell. I got the glycerine soap and kept it all cleaned up and shined the bit up and curried her down and I had to buy her hay and grain, that was my responsibility. I loved that horse and I loved that kind of life and I really took to that. I joined the Lakewood Riding Club and it was out on Mississippi Avenue, outside of Lakewood and they would meet once a week in the evening, they would play records of organ music and they would have gymnkana or games on horseback. They did drills on horseback where you would be in pairs of fours or sixes or eights. They would have special barbecues and you would ride after that. They would have cookouts. They would have horseshows. It really got in my blood and I really loved to show. That mare was old and she wasn't really show material. There was a friend of my mother's that worked at the stockyards in Denver, who had access to all of the horses that were brought in for sales. Hank Weisecamp brought in some horses from his ranch in Alamosa, Colorado and his little buckskin mare was in there, and this gentleman bought this mare for me and it cost me one hundred and fifty dollars. That was big money for a little nine year old kid so I earned the money. My mother had a restaurant in Lakewood Colorado, called the Woodlawn Chicken Inn and it was an old mansion and she turned it into a restaurant and she served chicken and steak dinners, and my responsibility was to cut the chickens and to make the biscuits and entertain. I started out playing with a little banjo uke and I sold flower seeds and bought a Gene Autry guitar and I was really living. This little mare, I called her Estrellita, Spanish for

Page 1 little star, and I broke her and I should say trained her, you train a horse because if you break the horse, you break his spirit, she never did buck. I would bring her something to eat and then I would lean on her, I would bring her to the barn and pretty soon I wold be sitting on her and as long as she was eating her hay she didn't mind a bit. I worked the same way with her bridle and saddle when she was eating her meals. Finally I took her out and she never did buck or rear. I was lucky because I probably would have hit the floor. I love that mare. There was a gentleman who was going up to the Mississippi riding Club and he said, "Would you like to learn more about horses?" And I said that I would and I would like to show. He had palominos, and he said,"You come up to the stables and you will have to learn how to apprentice. I will show you how to take care of horses and how to ride." I thought oh boy that is swell. First thing I got up there and he handed me the pitchfork, and I was cleaning out stalls. He taught me the proper way to clean horses and to make them comfortable and how to properly clean the tack, how to train and how to ride. His name was Cy Kenny and he was a very good showman. He showed for a lot of years and he knew a lot about horses, and so I felt very fortunate to be able to pick up the knowledge that he was willing to offer. I had a problem, he showed his horses in the pleasure classes, and my little buckskin mare was part thoroughbred and part quarterhorse. She had just enough thoroughbred in her and she was too excitable for pleasure classes and she just wouldn't settle down. I was wasting my entry fee money fast, and I couldn't afford that so I thought well I will try her in timed events. Then it doesn't matter, the faster the better, and it worked like a charm. She knew that she was going in for fast things and she would settle down. I trained her with the reining, and then stake racing and barrel racing. At that time barrel racing was strictly a man's event. S: What year are we talking about? J: This was in the forties and the fifties. Especially in the forties you didn't see girl barrel racers. This is before they measured the barrels out there. Before they just put them out any way. Now they have to be a standard distance. I put some barrels out and really trained hard with this mare. I put in a lot of time and that is what it takes, you are only as good as what energy and effort it takes to put into it. She got very good and very fast. I got to entering barrel racing and all these cowboys would never acknowledge me but they would say you better watch that little mare. That little mare is fast. That little mare was fast, she would lay her ears down, and she would run those barrels and scoot. Before regulation, and spacing the barrels, she would run that course in fourteen seconds flat and one time in eleven seconds flat. Then they would measure the barrels and she was running in fifteen. S: What year did they standardize the barrels? J: In the fifties. For a long time it was a fun event and they weren't that serious about it. Now girls were in stake races and they were doing that but they weren't doing this barrel racing. So I showed all through Colorado in barrel racing and

Page 2 also in Nebraska. The mare really built up a reputation. When I would pull in with my horsetrailer everybody said there is that little mare who can really run the those barrels. I thoroughly enjoyed those years that I showed. I did show up to grand champion when I had to quit for a music career. You can only stay on top for so long and the mare was getting some age on her. She barely made horse size, otherwise she would have been a pony. She was fourteen two hands tall and barely made it and she was heavily quartered. She was quarter horse chunky in the hind quarters. She had a good chest and she had slim legs and tiny little feet. Her breeding was King Tut and Peter Mcque and Yellow Jacket. I would show her in trail classes which I won a lot, and reining and barrel racing and stake racing, and a lot of gymkhana events and just anything with time. She was excellent. S: Would you describe gymnkana? J: Gymnkana is like an egg and spoon race. They would give you a big spoon and they wold put an egg in it and you would have to hurry as fast as you can without dumping that egg out of that spoon. They would put some water in a tin cup and you would have to get there with enough water in the cup and you might think that was easy but it isn't, especially when you are going against time. They had stake races and then you would try to pop the other guys balloon and get him out of the circle. A lot of fun games like that. Sack races were held in which you would have to get in a gunny sack and then get up to your horse and then race back. All timed events like that and it makes a good day. Everybody has a good time. S: Would you describe the final championship that you won and there was a lot in there that you had to do. There was a whole succession of things that you had to do. J: There was a trail class and there was eighteen in the class. I was the last to go through the course and you have to open and shut a gate and the horse has to come right alongside. He has to swing around and keep right close to that gate. You can't turn around with your arms hanging out in the air. Then you go over a bridge and the horse can look at it, he is allowed to do that but he has to go over it and he can't jump over it and make several refusals, he has to go over the bridge. Then you go over a water hazard, and you put tires down in the brush, they have to go through this brush. Then they throw a raincoat at you and your horse has to stand and you have to put that coat on. They throw a gunnysack full of tin cans and you have to pick that up and take it from one barrel over to another barrel and you can't be quiet. You have to be shaking those cans and the horse can't be fractious and try to dump you into the arena. You had to unload and load in a trailer and this is all against time. They would have things like paper that is flying, around their legs and they can't be fractious there. They can look but they have to go through and be good. Then you come through the gate again all against time. She won first and you could have heard me all over Colorado. What year was that? That was in 1953. Where was that? That was in Pueblo, Colorado State Fair.

Page 3 S: What was the championship? J: That was in halter class there, when I showed to grand champion. S: What was the name of your horse? J: Estrelita. I nicknamed her "big". S: Jeannie, would you tell me a little bit about the barrel racing that you did? J: When I found out that my mare could really run those barrels, I really concentrated on that hard and I did a lot of training every night. I was working for the telephone company and I would practice four or five hours a night with her . You have to be careful because you can "sour down" the horse if you do too much. You have to keep their attention but you have to let them forget it. So I would walk through the course so the horse would understand what you expect of them, and then go through at a trot and then you go a little faster and then you push up from that then once they understand what you want them to do. They really get with it and start going. So in the barrel racing in the shows, you are behind a line when you start. When you cross that line the flag goes down and you are timed. That is a cloverleaf pattern that you run, and then you race back over that line and the flag comes back down. The best time is the winner, like I mentioned before, it was mostly calf ropers that did this or men with reining horses. S: Would you define reining for me? J: Reining is when a horse will gallop and make figure eights and he will make quarter circle turns and he will run at a dead run and slide to a stop. He really sets his hind feet and slides and his head has to stay down and his mouth has to stay closed. You don't want to be too heavy on the horses' mouth. You do big figure eights and small figure eights and changing leads and quarter turns and he had to back real straight. That is reining. Men mostly did that too, very few women were doing that when I went into this competition. The show would be on Saturday. Most shows would be on Saturdays. You were training hard during the week and Friday night you start getting ready. You have your gear and your saddles and your bridles, and you have it all clean and soaped up and soft. You have your horse trailer all ready and you make sure that there is straw on the floor, and you put down a rubber mat for him and you put straw, and you put the hay in for them and the grain, they come first. Make sure that the oil is checked and the gas is full and the tires are checked and the water because you don't want any breakdowns. You carry extra water in case you might have trouble. You might carry a light lunch, if you get hungry you might like to eat on the way. A lot of these shows were in Loveland, Colorado, Boulder and Greeley, Pueblo, all the outlying places, around Denver and you had quite a way to drive. You would leave Friday night or early Saturday morning. It is better to leave Friday night so that you can get your horse in a stall, and get him bedded down and quiet. If you come up Saturday, they are tired from being in the trailer, especially if it is over a hundred mile trip, they get very leg weary. To do it right you would stop every hundred miles and unload them and walk them. It is called getting their legs back, because they get wobbly. You know that if you travel

Page 4 too long in the car, you get out and you are still travelling and the same thing with the horse. Usually you will bandage their legs, put cotton around them and bandage their tail, put a blanket on them, so that they can be eating while they are travelling. Make sure that your stall is clean and you bed them down in the straw and put in their hay and their water. You groom them up beautifully. There is a funny saying about people who show horses, "The horse is beautiful and looks gorgeous and the equipment is gorgeous and the rider hasn't had time to have a bath, comb his hair or anything and he had to throw his clothes on and go." That is the way it is and when you get there you let him rest and before a show, you leg him up and let him do a lot of walking, take him around the grounds and let him see everything and take him into the arena, to see what the arena is going to be like,then I always kept a bottle of absorbine junior and I would rub her legs real good. It would relax those tendons so that she wouldn't be stiff. When they hear that music they get excited because they know what's happening. They get ready and their ears are back and I would get up to the starting line and I would say,"Are you ready big? Get ready big, go." She would go and the crowd got the biggest kick out of her because she was a perfect little mare. One time she was at the Jefferson County Horse Show in Lakewood, Colorado, and more girls at this time were coming into barrel racing but not too much. I was competing against a fellow named Fletcher Wood and he was on a stallion, and it was a big horse and he was sixteen hands tall. They were rooting for him because he had the big horse and they were rooting for me because I had the little horse. We tied three times. We ran it to the end and I won. The mare just got up there and scat. S: Is this typical for men and women to be competing? J: Now they don't do that anymore, it is strictly a woman's event. In stake races they still mix them up or they did. Now they have girls' stake racing and boys' stake racing. S: What year was that, that you had that tie? J: That was in 1954. It was in July at the horse show there. My mare won that and she won on the reining and she won the stake race. I entered her, if you can believe this or not Edie, in the side saddle class, and there they have to walk, trot and canter and she really has to be a lady, and I had my sidesaddle and I had black velvet roping and I took it and tied it up at her tail. I had a sign that said "Gay Ninety Kids" and I had on a gown and a big hat. I thought here goes nothing and she was perfect and she just cantered so slow, and this can't be my horse, and I won that class. That was my day. I really had a good time. S: Was the side saddle only for women? J: Yes. S: How did that tradition come about. J: That goes way back. It was considered unladylike to ride straddle. S: Up until what date? J: That would be late 1800's. A woman had big skirts and it wasn't until latter, like pantaloons, because a lady didn't straddle a horse which is very hard to ride(sidesaddle). Your balance is completely different. You really have to set up there

Page 5 and ride, with side saddle. When you are straddling the horse, you have more gripping power. One leg is hooked over this horn and the other is in the stirrup, and you are setting to the side. S: When you beat one of the champions of barrel racing who was a man, can you describe who it was and the date. J: That was Fletcher Wood and he was really up there on barrel racing, and that did encourage more women to come in and the men they didn't like the women beating them and it was kind of a prestige thing, and then the women really became excited about it and took it over. The men could have had mens' barrel racing but it just didn't happen. In those days, it was something new. S: What date was that when you beat him? J: That was in July, in Jefferson County, Colorado. S: The date was? J: That was 1954. S: That was a big year for you? J: It sure was. S: What different associations did you have to join? J: There were no associations at that time, Edie. Then came Turtle and PRCA, they were the Professional Rodeo Cowboys Association. There wasn't an association for women, s no rodeo association at all, that was nonexistent. S: You weren't associated with the club at this time. J: I was still with the Lakewood Riding Club but as far as any professional rodeo circuits, they had no association at that time, for women. S: Were a lot of women doing rodeo with you and do you remember some of the champions? J: There were a lot of trick riders like Verna Tricky who I admire very much and she rode broncs, she was a terrific trick rider and rode relay races. That is mostly the type of women that you would see in rodeos in those days. S: The women don't ride broncs today? J: Yes they do in the girls association, yes they do. S: Where did the name "turtles" come from? J: Edie, was interested about the "turtles" and before there was the professional cowboy association, they organized what they called the "turtles", which was the cowboys and they came from the ranches and they competed. It became more and more professional and it became so these ranch hands would follow the show. It used to be when the show came to town if it was close to the ranches the cowboys came in, it was a fun thing, and they competed if they wanted to, and then they went back to the ranch, then as it progressed and the money purses became better, they found out if they were a very good rider, that they began to follow these shows, and then from there they progressed and organized the RCA, Rodeo Cowboys' Association Rodeo started organizing so slow. S: How did the name "turtles" start? J: It was called the "turtle" club, it started because they would come up and say, do you want to be a turtle. You are supposed to say,"You bet your sweet ass, I am." That is true today and if you don't say it right , you are supposed to buy a round of drinks. S: Is the turtle, the way it moves?

Page 6 J: It is a folk saying, "I am a turtle." S: Tell me a little about the clothing, and has it changed and what you wore back then and what they wear today. J: Levis are always standard, and I wore levis, and boots and a nice cowboy shirt and a hat. Nowadays, the girls wear more of a stretch pant, and it is easier to ride in. They are still wearing levis too. Some of the girls wear hats and other don't, it is distracting unless you put long hair pins and really pin your hair into that hat. It is going to fly off and that is very distracting. You don't want anything slowing you down and you don't want to even have to think about it. Some of them don't wear hats and they wear prettier shirts today. J: You were wondering about how the womens' movement affected the barrel racing. This had nothing to do with women's lib, women got into it and it just progressed as a woman's event. It isn't anything like it is today, women's lib. The girls are very professional just like the men today. The women have their own girls association, and barrel racing is a big thing now. It has really come a long way, baby, as they say. S: Would you highlight for me Jeannie, some of the biggest wins in your career. J: My very first win was when I won my first silver cup at the Denver National stock show, in 1943. It was Western Saddle Seat and Hands, it was a big class and I won it and I was just ecstatic and I couldn't believe it. I had always been to the stock show and I got to be a part of it. It was really a thrill. Then ten years later, I showed in the Open English, that means that is open to three-gaited english or western type horses. Society horses are like your three-gaited or your special jumpers. S: Would you define Society for me? J: They call three-gaited and five-gaited and jumping horses, that is called society roadsters, horses like that. That is called society horses against a ranch or pleasure horse, that is a working horse at the ranch. I was showing the palomino, and it was a big class, and I won that class and that was the second thrill of my life, because that is something to beat society, that is one trophy I treasure. That was at the Denver National Western Stock Show. S: What did you have to do to win that one? J: That is walk, trot, and canter. It is english saddle, english bridle, four reins and you ride mostly on your snaffle, and not your curb bit and it is rider and horse. Judging how you ride that horse, and how the horse goes, if he has an easy trot, and isn't fighting the bit and he takes the correct lead, he has to do it without a lot of commands, showing, that is he takes it quietly. Then you reverse, and walk, trot and canter and then they line up and you have to back your horse and make sure that his legs are under him, what we call "dressed up". I won that and that was another terrific thrill and that meant a lot to me. S: The horse that you won that with belonged to whom? J: That belonged to Cy Kenny. I was showing his horse for him. When I won the trail class with my little mare, at the Greeley Horse Show and I won the reining class, I won a big beautiful trophy with the stag horns, that was another big class which was another big thrill for me. With that reining class,

Page 7 they do the figure eights and the quarter turns and the circles, and the backing and the stopping. I won a lot of the gymkhana, those are the fun things all against time. In the days that I was barrel racing, they didn't give ribbons, they gave money? S: Why is that? J: Because it was so new, it was a new event, it was like a specialty event. Now they have beautiful ribbons and trophies and you can make points, for the barrel racing, but in those days they didn't do that. You never have a ribbon or trophy to show for it. I would rather have the trophy, that meant a lot and as the years go by and you look back at trophies, you think, that was fun, good memories. Then there were a lot of other events, and they were timed events, and to get trophies, you had to be in the stake races, or reining or gymkhana events, mostly trophies instead of money, they had donations from hardware stores or grocery stores, and then they would buy a trophy, which was great because you have that memory of what you did. S: I would like to ask you Jeannie, about the Westernaires, you were teaching. J: I was an instructor from when that was first organized in Lakewood, Colorado, and that was called Paul Gregg Pony Boys and Girls. Mr. Elmer Wyland, was the head and the man who started that. I was one of the instructors and helped teach the kids how to ride, I will never forget this boy's name, and his last name was Calhoun, and he would hump over and I would say,"Calhoun, straighten that back up."(laugh) They were a great group of kids. That really mushroomed from a small amount of kids that entered. It is a big, big, thing, they have trick riding and cadrille riding, trick roping, and clowning, and everything and it is a beautiful show. In those days it was just kids that had their horses, and Mr. Wyland wanted to help these kids. They needed instructors so I was one of the instructors. They changed from The Paul Gregg Pony Boys and Girls to the Westernaires, which they are called today. S: What is the hardest thing about teaching riding, is it making the children relax? J: Yes. They also need a horse that will do these things, if the horse is spoiled or won't do these things it is very hard for the child to accomplish anything, because he doesn't know how to make the horse do that. An experienced rider could make the horse do that but not a beginner. It is important to have a horse who is willing to do what is asked of him. They have to learn balance and like western riding they have to keep the stirrup on the ball of your foot, and keep your heels down and away from the horse's belly. You don't keep socking the horse with your heels, otherwise you are confusing the horse and he thinks that you want him to go faster. You sit like you are sitting in a chair, like good posture, and you have an easy hand on the horses mouth you don't jerk the horse's mouth, you don't want his mouth open. You want him to neck rein, if you push it to the left you want that horse to go to the left, if you push to the right you want that horse to go to the right. You also give an aide with your heel, if you want him to go to the right you touch him with your heel. The children have to learn how to dismount and mount properly and how to saddle, how to bridle, how

Page 8 to clean their horses, how to feed and the routines and there is an awful lot to it. They love it and take to it. S: Did you have a career in judging? J: Yes, I did have a career in Wyoming. I worked a lot of the 4-H shows and that was very enjoyable. If I got a class, where all of the kids were having problems I would turn it into an instruction class, I would tell that child what he was doing wrong, so he could better himself and I would tell him why I marked him down and why I placed the other one higher. I figured that was fair because if they don't know, and don't correct mistakes, they keep doing it. That became very popular and I judged that way for quite a bit. S: Was this something that you started, this innovative method? J: As far as I know, I am the only one who does that. When everyone is having trouble, I think that it is only right to make them aware so that when they go into the next show, they are better. What year did you do the judging? This was in the seventies, and I liked that, it was fun. Do you do it now? If I am asked, I will.

Page 9 File C:\WP51\JJMUSIC.ESS

Jeannie Joy-Music Career S: My name is Edie Swift and I am recording today in Unionville, with Jeannie Joy at her home and I would like to record this for the Oral History Program of the Humboldt County Library in Winnemucca, Nevada and for the Country Music Foundation in Nashville, Tennessee. We are going to talk about Jeannie's career in music and I wondered about your early years and how did you get into music to start out with. J: Well, Edie my Mother adopted me and I was in the orphanage in Denver, Colorado and she bought a mansion out in Lakewood, which was really far country in those days, that is seven miles west of Denver, no paved streets, it was a dirt road. She bought this old mansion and she converted it to a restaurant, a chicken and steak house and so when I was a little kid she got me a banjo ute and my Mother was always singing and so she taught me a lot of the songs. Oh Johnny, Oh, Johnny how you can love, you know those old songs back in those old days. So then I would have to help out in the kitchen, she would have a nice big high chair and I would climb up in the chair and I would have to make the biscuits. They would be beautiful big biscuits and I would have a big blue bowl and I would make these batches of biscuits and I would have to cut up chickens and I would entertain the people. I would go from room to room and entertain the people. Of course, they all thought that was cute, here came a little kid with a banjo uke and sing them a song. From a banjo uke I went to a banjo. It was really fun and I enjoyed doing that and I remember one time, Mother had a private room and this man saw me coming through the door and he says "Little girl, please don't play." My Mother says I have to sing for you. He says,"Please don't play." And he went out the other door. I was right behind him and he went out the front door, and I was right behind him. I chased that man all over the yard. I was laughing , I thought that that was swell. Finally he said," I will give you a dollar if you won't play." I said "ok", (laugh) That was it, I was in show business. I would entertain at Mother's restaurant. Later I sold flower seeds and bought a Gene Autrey guitar for fourteen dollars and it had Gene Autrey's picture on it. He was my hero, Gene Autrey I thought he was handsome and he could yodel and ride horses, and I thought oh boy, he is swell. Then I got to enter talent shows, and the Brown Derby was in Denver and I sang that "Oh, Johnny." song and I won a dollar, and I thought what a way to make a living. I liked talent shows and entertaining at my Mother's restaurant. They had Grange Halls where they would have dinners and meetings, festivities and they would ask me to come up and sing for them. I would have a little program and do three or four songs and gradually got into show business that way. I would go from granges to private homes to special occasions and the chorus in school, it just kind of took off from there. Every talent show that came up I was right in there, that was fun. the only good experience that we had there, recording. On these recordings we used a lot of people like some members of the Sons of the Pioneers, then there was a rock group, the Big Bopper and he had been killed in a big plane crash, and his band was on the loose and we used his big band to back us up. They were rock musicians but they could play other music other than rock music. We used a lot of well-known musicians to back us up and we also backed a lot of musicians up. Before leaving KOA behind, we recorded a song called "Rock-a-Bye Boogie" and it was recorded by the Modernaires, a group with Glen Miller's band. It was recorded by the Davis sisters and it was a big hit, but by the time we collected our money which we had to do, through a lawyer there were two other guys names on it besides myself, who I have never heard of and I still don't know who they were. That is the way that business was. I hate to say it but if you didn't have a lawyer, behind it counteracting everything you tried to pull, Jeannie and I got pretty well disgusted with that, we decided to hit the road. Did we do some other things before we did leave? How about "Sweet Betsy From Pike". J: Will wrote the music to "Sweet Betsy From Pike" and it was terrific , but there again, you couldn't be single you had to be married, Betsy and her friend and so Will said I can fix that up. But before Will could do that this came out on a show, and that was borrowed also. We were disgusted by this time so I said let's go on the road and play the nightclubs and the money is going to be ours and there will be no one to cut in on it and we forgot about recording for a long time. Not until a few years ago did we start back in again. Being on the road was real fun because we both got to travel together, and it was like a paid vacation and we loved seeing the country and we liked seeing Americana history, especially the indians and we got out and hunted for artefacts during the day. Our music went over very well in the clubs. We worked a club twice a year over the years. We had a very nice circuit going. S: Before we leave the Los Angeles area, you were in Los Angeles, 1956-1959, and didn't you play in Long Beach and New Hall Supper Club and there was one guy who you met there who became famous. W: One guy used to come in with his girlfriend and one night he gave me this real steely-eyed look and glaring at me and I didn't know how to take it and it turned out he was Lee Van Cleath, and he got famous for having that stare. J: He was a villain. Another time what's his name came in, Harry James and if we had friends there I would say we have a champion yodeller, someone who could really whistle and we have a celebrity here tonight, Harry James thought we were going to call on him and he got up and went to the men's room and then he left. I didn't announce him. W: Another friend came in there once, a friend who became a member of the Friends of the Pioneers, Rome Johnson, I mentioned him in the other tape Edie, way back on W, Tex Achison, the fiddle player, the Prairie Ramblers, he went off to Hollywood to get into movies but he never made it. He used to come in there too and it was a surprise after all these years to see Tex Achison. S: We could talk about going on the road, and tell me a

PAGE 4 In high school I was doing a lot of entertaining in private homes, and singing in talent shows like they would have these talent shows in the parks. Whoever won, then they would have a final show at Cheeseman Park, they had all the finalists from the entire summer and I was always a finalist and always enjoyed that. It was at night in the summertime and it was a lot of fun. I could yodel in those days and .1 like to yodel like Gene Autrey and Roy Rodgers and Slim Whitman. That is why I did well in the talent shows and the personality that you put into it. S: How old were you when you were in Cheeseman Park? J: I was in my teens then. S: Did Elton Britt also influence you? J: Yes. He is a fine yodeller. If they could yodel, I would listen. I tried to do yodels just like them. S: How did this tradition come about of yodeling in the music? J: You know, like the Basque, they were so far away from each other,they would yodel to their neighbour, and you could hear them yodel, it is a falsetto, so they would yodel and signal to their neighbours that way. They did that in Switzerland too and that is how it got a start. It is pleasing and it is what you can do with your voice. I have always liked it very much. S: After you were in your teens did you go on to do more music? J: Yes then I went into radio shows, KOA they had the Saturday Night Stampede and they needed a girl singer and I auditioned for that. I got the part and that was a thrill to do that. I was working at the telephone company and still doing private engagements for other people and fairs and rodeos and nightclubs. S: Where did you go around to sing? J: Mostly in the Denver area. S: Do you remember the name of the nightclub? J: One of them was called the Che Paris, and this was during the stock show and they wanted a western singer and they have strip tease girls there. I was completely opposite compared to what the other entertainment was, I went over very well and there were a lot of cowboys there, rodeo people, cattleman, I enjoyed it. It turned out ok it was alright. Casey Tibbs came there. S: What were some of the songs that you were singing at this time when you were in the nightclub and at some of the fairs? J: I was doing a lot of yodeling, I would sing "Chime Bells",% "Sweetheart Cowboys" and Eddie Arnold's "Anytime", /"Cattle Call," anything that you could yodel with, You could yodel with most country songs. S: When you were in school were you asked to play guitar? J: Yes, I was playing guitar for assemblies I would often do a show, a fifteen minute show. That would often go over very well and I would get them to sing along too. S: Did you see some of your idols when you were growing up? J: Only in the movies. When I was growing up, Lakewood was really country. Those entertainers were back East mostly, Nashville and California.

2> // S: You might describe some of the instruments that you played at that time when you were in the nightclubs? J: I accompanied myself on guitar, at that time a martin guitar, amplified. S: Amplification came in the twenties? J: Yes. S: What time are we talking about that you were playing, nightclubs? J: That would be 1955. S: Was the rock and roll a factor then? J: No. It was hillbilly music. Hillbilly music is real southern, more of the southern type folk songs. There was no rock and roll and there was pop music and I tried to do Western and popular, a lot of standards. S: What was some of the popular music at that time? J: Bing Crosby influenced the popular music. He sang a lot of the good old songs like "In the Good Old Summertime " to "Singing in the Rain". Everybody sang those types of songs like Stardust and Autumn Leaves. Pretty Songs. S: Jeannie, I would like to know who were the artists who influenced you and then go into your style. J: Well, yodeling came first, Gene Autrey and Roy Rodgers, Eddie Arnold, Slim Whitman and I loved the Sons of the Pioneers I still do that is good music. I would learn all of those songs but I can't sing like the guys do I developed Jeannie Joy's style, I put my personality into the style, I do it my way. You can't sound like another artist, I want to sound like me, I want to have my distinctive personality and my own voice, so if someone said I heard that voice then I know that that is Jeannie. I don't want them to say well you sound like Dolly Parton or Patsy Cline. I want to sound like Jeannie Joy. You put your own personality into it and the way you phrase your music and your words and make it your own. S: How would you borrow from the artist? J: You can only borrow the song and then you make it your style. A lot of people do try to sound like the artist and I think that that is wrong. They forget you unless there is a sing-a long contest or something like that, or if you are impersonating an artist that is fine too. You don't have your own style then. I am what they call a bunch quitter, I want my own sound. S: How would you work on your own sound? J: I would just listen to the record, over and over on the radio until you got it in your mind and you got the melody then you gradually get the words and then you find the key where it is comfortable for your own voice. You can sing it in your own natural key. You put your personality into it. They might phrase words their way and I want to phrase them my way. I want to have a Jeannie Joy sound with that song. I just borrow their song because anyone can sing the song. I don't want to sound like them. J: How did you learn to play these instruments that you played? S: In those days you could get these little books, it showed little dots which finger to put where, so you would start in real slow and put one finger there and one finger there and you would try to play the chord and it sounds terrible. Then you have to learn to press harder and get your fingers up off of the strings because you muff on them. You tend to go squish, you learn to raise you finger up and press down. Then it starts to sound a little better. Then you have to learn how to play rhythm, a lot of people can't keep a meter. If you play along with the record that teaches you and you have learned three quarters of it and you are ready for big time. You go for the diminished and minor seventh and augmented you have to train yourself pretty hard. S: What instruments did you learn to play at a certain age? J: I guess I was about five years old when I started on the banjo uke I was a little bitty one. I couldn't do much with that, I guess that I learned two chords. You have to start somewhere and I was dedicated to it. I practiced a lot because I liked the music. I learned more songs and another chord and for a long time I was singing everything in the same key. S: After that you progressed from a banjo-uke to ? J: I had a little banjo. Then I went big time and bought a Gene Audrey guitar. S: How old were you then? J: I got that when I was nine years old and that was the height of living. S: After that? J: I progressed to different guitars and I have never had anything amplified, until the fifties, I had a little insert amp that I inserted into the martin guitar and it gave it a nice sound. You're on a p.a. for your microphone but you can't hear enough guitar that is why that had to be amplified to bring the sound up to level it off and balance it off with the voice. S: What would you wear when you went to the nightclubs? J: I wore nice western jeans and a cowboy shirt and hat and boots. S: Did you have backup? J: No, I was all by myself. S: Did you listen to the radio growing up? J: That is where I got most of the songs. S: Was the Oprey going on at that time? J: Yes I listened to the Grand Old Oprey and got a lot of songs from them. There is a folk song tradition like Wabash Cannonball and whole lot of stock songs like that, everybody does them. S: Who were you favorites in the Old Oprey? J: I didn't have a favorite at that time I was listening to the songs when I was ten. S: Were there any other shows that you would listen to on the radio? J: Whatever would come on. KOA was the big program. S: Did you listen to any other types of music that would come on the radio? J: Jazz, the blues, hillbilly, which is really country western S Where did the hillbilly come from? J It came from the South. S Did people from the South come and perform? J No, there would be a transcript, it would be carried by KOA. S: Describe that transcription. J: They would prerecord that and send the transcription to KOA. They would keep sending them on to the different radio stations. They would put it on a disk and send it out. S: Is this done today? J: Well, yes they are taped today and prerecord and send them out. S: Did you ever had any instances where the audience was hard to handle? J: Never had any trouble at all. People didn't have TV in those days and they were hungry for entertainment and they appreciated entertainment. They flocked to hear live entertainment and that has changed today because of television. In those days they really appreciated seeing a live performer. S: What type of people would come to the club? J: You had farmers,ranchers, business people, people in mining , construction, a melting pot of people. A lot of the immigrants when they came over early, they settled in all these towns in Colorado, we had Italians we had Jewish, Polish and English and Scottish, and Irish, it was all kinds. S: Tell me about KOA and what songs you were singing when you were trying out for that and do you remember that experience. J: They had advertised in the paper, they thought oh, good, I am going to go down and try for that and I did Cowboy Sweetheart and Cool Water and another yodeling number and they said you are hired and I said "Oh boy". S: Tell me about the show and what time you had to be there? J: It was a regular Saturday Night Barndance and it was held, originally in the studio station and then they moved to the old Tabor Theatre which is very historic, and it is a beautiful theatre and they had baled hay on the stage and they would call a square dance I would sing about three numbers on the show and my husband Will Carson had the band, and I would sing a trio with him and his brother and do the hymn, which we called the Cowboy Trails and Pete Smyth was the announcer and he would do a narration of this Cowboy Trails, just a nice thing about cowboys and how they worked on ranches, a nice nostalgic atmosphere. Then they had a lady on there called Effie Snortblaster and she played a rinky dink piano. S; What did she look like? J: She was skinny and her adam's apple stuck out and she had this little hat and she played a terrific piano, and then they would have a guest from other shows in Denver and they would appear. Then we sang the hymn at the end of the show. That was to thank people for coming to the show, we left them in a nice mellow mood. That was a lot of fun. Jimmy Atkins was the program producer and that was Chet Atkin's brother. Jimmy by the way plays a fantastic guitar and sings just as good as his brother. He chose to be a program manager as he didn't want to get ulcers. He was a good man to work for. S: How were you paid? J: At the end of the show each week we would be sent a check. S: Were you still making appearances on other things? J: Yes and we would have to practice two to three times a week for the show. We had to do single numbers and duos and trios and singles and it all had to be rehearsed out. S: Did any of the people on the show sing in different languages? J: They never did sing in different languages but Stan would play the accordion very good and Elmer Kelton was on steel guitar and a very fine steel guitar player. Will's brother Mel was playing bass, and there was another gentlemen called Bob Love and he played the fiddle. It was a good combination of instruments. S: There was a humor tha went along with this, weren't there humorous spots and people would be comedians. J: People would come on there and people would come dressed up as clowns. S: Who were some of the comedians? J: There would be nightclub singers. They would come on as guest stars. People enjoyed that. S: I was going to ask you about your decision during your career. You had to make a decision. J: I sure did. I was working for the telephone company and I was on the Saturday Night Barn Dance and I was showing horses and winning. I wanted it all and I wanted to keep doing that forever. I would go to the Saturday Night Barndance and if an English Class was to come up later, I would have an English outfit and I would do my numbers and I would take right off from the show and I would have to drive to Adams County or Jefferson County or Longmont or Boulder so I had to be ready for that first class. The next Saturday night, I would get to say I won and Pete Smyth would say,"Did you win Jeannie" and I would say ,"Yes, I did." and ranching people heard that and enjoyed that. They thought that was great, a real singing cowgirl and not some one that was just picked off the street, that calls themselves a singing cowgirl, I was a real doer. I was pioneering in that because that was a real good combination. But Jimmie Atkins called me into the station and said we are just delighted to have you on the show but he said you have to make a decision it is you, horses or the music. We want you there for the whole show. I understand that you really like your horses and you think about it. He said let me know by the next Saturday night show. There was a show coming up at Adams County I took my little buckskin mare over there and showed her to Grand Champion and I said that I would hang it up. So I went and told Jimmie that I decided to stay with the music. He said you made a good choice. He said that you couldn't stay up there and be a champion forever,which is true you can't. There will be somebody who will be better than you someday. I like the music and it has been a very good life and I enjoyed being on KOA and the other tv shows that we have been on and I have had my own tv shows. It was time to make a decision and I accepted the decision. S: What year was that that you made that decision? J: That was in 1955. I really enjoyed the chapter with the horses but it was time to close that chapter out. I don't regret it and music has been very fulfilling. I still enjoy it and am still going at it which is a good life. It would have been fun to have it all forever but it can't be that way. You have to be practical. @

Alaska - 15 Allen, Rex - 10 Ameche, Jim - 3 Arnold, Eddie - 1, J12 Arellano, Andy - 1, W18-19 Arthur Godfrey - 2 Atchison, Tex - 4, W4-5 Atki ns Chet - 1, J14, W4, W18 Jimmy - 1, J14, J15, W18 Autrey, Gene - 1, 3, Jl, J10-13, W7, Wl1

Baker, Danny - W8, W12 Barns, George - W6 barrel racing - J2, J4-5, J7-8 Basque - Jli Beck, Ernie - W5-6, W14 Big Bopper - 4 Bills, Dick - 16 Barbara - 16 Bobson, Vern - W8, W10 Boone, Pat - 3, W5 Shirley - W5 Burnett, Smiley - W7 Burns Bros. Truck Stop - 18 Britt, Elton - 1, Jl1, W7

Cactus Pete's - 8 Calgary Kid - W14-16 Cali forn ia Los Angeles - 3-4 Long Beach - 4 Campbell, Glen - 16 Canada - 15 Carson, Mel - 2-3, 10, W3, W6-7, W10, W12, W18 Chambers, Polly - 5 Cheyenne, Wyoming - 3 Cianci, Freddy - W16 clothing styles - J7, J13, W13 Cobert, Bobby - 8 Colorado, Lakewood - Jl Commercial Hotel - 8 cooking - J10 country jazz - W6 Crosby, Bing - J12

Dallas, W. Fay - 16 Danny Baker Trio - W12 Davis Sisters - 4, W19 Denver National Western Stock Show - J7 Dickens, Little Jimmy - 8 Dude Ranch Buckaroos - Wl1, W19 East Tin Cup - W18 Evans, Dale - 5

Farr, Hugh - 18, W15-16 FBI - 10 Fiddler, Adeline - 6 Jimmie - 6 Foley, Red - 8, W3-4 folk music - W15 Ford, Henry II - Wl1 Fort Lauderdale, Florida - 6 Fountains of the World - 5 Frankfurt, Illinois - W3, W7 Friends of the Pioneers - 4

Goebel, George - W5 Grand Olde Oprey - 1, J13, W9 Green Belt Beer - W8 Green Belt Rangers - W8 gymkana - J3, J8

Hamms beer - W8 Hamms Ensemble - W8 Higgens Boys, The - W8 hillbilly music - J12, W2-5 Hirt, Chic - W4 Holmes, Salty - W4 Hometown Harmonizers - W2 Hotels Humboldt - 9 Mizpah - 6-7 Humboldt Hotel - 9

James, Harry - 4 Jaybird - 12 Johnson, Rome - 4 Jubilee Singers - W8- Jurado, Katy - W19

Kenny, Cy - J7 Kelton, Elmer - 1-2, J15 KNAX, Yankton - W18 KOA, Denver - 1-2, 4, Jll, J13-15, WIS-19 KVSF, Santa Fe - W14-15 KXEL - W3 - 10 Laxalt, Paul - 17 Long, Bob - W7-8, W10 Love, Bob - 1-2, W17-19 Long Beach - 4 Los Angeles, California - 3-5 Lulubelle & Scotty - W4-5

Mack, Harry - W10 Jenny - W10 Mackie, Joe - 7, 12, 16-17 Red - 7 Sharon - 7 Tommy - 7 Zoe - 7 Mafus, Joe - 8 Rose - 8 Manning, Bob - 8, W12-13 Massey, Louise & Westerners - W2, W5, W10 McDermitt, Nevada - 8 Midas, Nevada - 16 Midwest Inn - W3, W7-8 Miller, Glenn - 4, W19 mining - 9 Mississippi Riding Club - J2 Mizpah Hotel - 6 - 7 Modernaires - 4, W19 Montana, Patsy - W4, W7

Newhall Supper Club - 4 Night Riders - W14

Oats, Clayton - W3 Old Corral - 17-18

Peabody, Eddie - 17 Perkins, Judy - W9 Prairie Ramblers - 4, W4 PRCA - J6 Presley, Elvis - 9 radio stations KLZ, Denver - 1-2 KNAX, Yangton - W18 KOA, Denver - 1-2, 4, W18-19, Jll, J13-15 KXEL, Waterloo - W8 WFAA, Dallas - Wl1 WSLB, N.Y. - W6, W8 WXYZ, Waterloo - W10 Rainbow Ranch Boys - W16 Ranch Boys - W9 Rath, Sylvia - 1., W18' Red Bull - 7 reli g i on cults - 5 Riders of the Purple Sage - W10, W17 Riders of the Silver Sage - W12-13 Robinson, Johnny - 6, 11 rock and roll music - 9-10, J12, W14 Rocky Mountain Barn Dance - 2-3, W18 Rock Springs, Wyoming - 9-10 Rogers, Roy - 1, 4-5, J12, W7, W16 Rutka, Stanley - 1-2

Saddleridge Buckaroos - W10-11 Salt Creek Wranglers - W5-7, W14 Saturday Night Barn Dance - J15 Schurz, Nevada - 7 Seals, Sam - 16 Self, Pat - 18 Sheridan, Wyoming - 11 shiveree - 2 sidesaddle riding - J5 SIye, Lyn - 5, W7 Smythe, Pete - J14-15, W18 Snortblaster, Effie - 1, J14, W18-19 Snow, Hank - W16-17 society - J7 Sonoma Inn - 7 Sons of the Pioneers - 1, 4-5, 8, 18, J12, W2, W7, W9, Wl1, W13-15 Star Broiler - 6-8 Starr, Rocky - 1, W18-19

Tabor Theatre - 2, J14 Timm, George - WS Tonopah, Nevada - 6-7, 9 Torrington, Wyoming - 10 1 turtles' - J6 Unionville, Nevada - I, 9, 16-17

Van Cleaf, Lee - 4 Ventna, Krishna - 5 Vietnam - 11-15

Wa ke 1 y , J i rnmy - W9 Watson, Red - 17 Weisecamp, Hank -r Jl Westernaires - W18 Westernaires riding club - J8 Western Hall of Fame - 17 Western Stampede - 1-2, W19 Whitey Ford Show - W5 Whitman, Slim - 1, Jll-12, W7 Williams, Tex - 8 Wills, Bob - 8, W10 WLS National Barn Dance - Wl, W3-4, W6-9 Wood, Fletcher - J5-6 Woodlawn Chicken Inn - Jl Wyomi ng Rock Springs - 9-10 Sheri dan - 1 1 Torrington - 10

Yelin, Star - yodeli ng - W7 little about where you went and 1959 you were in Tonopah. J: That was our first job as a duo on the road. W: Can we back up, what was the place that we lived? J: Chatsworth W: Across from the Fountain of the World. S: This was Los Angeles. W: This was before we left. We rented a house from Polly Chambers, a cousin to Dale Evans, of Roy Rodgers and Dale Evans, and she also made their costumes and made our costumes. We got to know Roy and Dale very well, and right across from where we lived, was this religious cult called Fountain of the World, run by Krishna Ventna. J: It was a religious cult and they would give all of their worldly possessions, jewellery, cars, watches, everything, and he claimed he had the power to marry people and divorce people and he would take all of their money and the wives too and he said that he had poor circulation and that he needed to keep warm. So he took a wife from one of the cult members and the cult member said that he wasn't going to stand for that. He talked to Krishna Ventna about that and Krishna Ventna kicked him out. He went and got nineteen sticks of dynamite and made a two hour confession tape and made sure that tape could be found, it was a little house next to where we were living and that tape was in there, and he went over to the Fountain of the World and he went inside and he had all of this dynamite and he pulled the trigger and it was a huge stone building and heavy stones and he absolutely levelled that place. We had just come home from playing Newhall and it just blew us out of bed. It threw us out of bed on the floor and there was a lot of fire and screaming and the fire department was next door to us and they were trying to put the fire out, a lot of deaths and mutilation. I saw somebody walking away from that place, they never found Krishna Ventna he was never found. It was believed that he got away with some money and was never heard of again. They used to see him at racetracks and he would wear white robes and sandals, he would wear diamond rings and drive Cadillacs and he was betting the horses. He was doing it for the lord. W: Jeannie, do you want to tell about Polly Chamber's monkeys. J: She had two of these gibbon apes and they lived in a house and a big tree went up to their house, these apes loved her and they were very possessive and they didn't like anybody else being around. This time that we were going over for a fitting and I was going to open the door and just got it open a little bit and here was this ape on the other side of the door, he is trying to pull it and I am trying to close it and the door is going back and forth and she said hold the door and I will go get him . She got him back in the cage and I said, "Wow". W: It was over at Polly's that we would often visit with Roy and Dale. An interesting thing that Roy told me once, I figured that, he was at the height of his career that he was happy, and he wasn't that happy. He said that he was happiest when he was Lyn Sly, when he was a musician with the Sons of the Pioneers and they were traipsing around the country shooting jack rabbits for their evening meal. They would stop along the road to shoot jack rabbits. He was happier then than he was in

PAGE 5 Humboldt County Library

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T> Qfsa/yi^^jr ,QorW^ f^y/^^r^^ , hereby give my ^/Interviewee oral history interview with E-olluJ/5~( \^^ £,£>., which Interviewer was conducted on , to the Humboldt County Date

Library, Winnemucca, Nevada.

It is hereby agreed between myself and the Humboldt County Library that all rights, title and interest in the transcript (verbatim and edited) and/or tape recording and the contents thereof belong to the Humboldt County Library. I further agree to expressly assign any copyright interest I may have in this material to the Humboldt County Library.

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(7

Interviewer Date

85 East Fifth St. WINNEMUCCA, NEVADA 89445 (702)623-6388 Hollywood so that has something to say for Hollywood. That probably ties in with why Jeannie and I left there. J: It was very difficult. Everybody wanted to record and everybody wanted to be a movie actor, for the travelling musician it was terrible because they would work under scale and you just couldn't make any money. So we thought we would go out on the road where we would have a contract and we know we are going to get a certain amount of money and there won't be anybody there who is trying to underbid us. They would say that they would work for nothing to get the exposure, which they are doing today, Edie. Bands are paying the clubs to let them come in and play, in Nashville, and California, because they think that they will get discovered that we will get a recording contract out of this. Maybe they will but most chances they won't and the clubs are getting free entertainment and the bands are paying the clubs and that kills the travelling musician. That is the way times have changed. S: That is a very interesting point. I was going to mention after Los Angeles, you went on the road, I believe that was 1959. J: We went to the Mizpah hotel, in Tonopah, Nevada, and we just loved it because we were out West and we hunted for arrowheads every day and we found a real good spot and it was real hot in the summertime and real cold in the wintertime. We really liked the hotel and we played it lots and lots of years. It is a very historical place. From there we went to Fort Lauderdale. S: Don't forget to tell about the Indian dance at the Mitzpah Hotel. W: Before that because that was later, the indian dance, we were booking through Johnny Robinson at the time, when we were looking for a booking agent, we almost booked through Adeline Fiddler, who was the wife of Jimmie Fiddler, the Hollywood, columnist, we would go over there, to their place and Jimmie would invite us to swim in the pool and we never would, we wanted to find out if Adeline would book us or not. It didn't work out so that Johnnie Robinson was the one who would send us all over the country. J: We got our one job in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, . He was very unhappy about that (Johnnie Robinson) but I said, in the contract I put in a clause, and recordings or anything that we got on our own, we would not pay him a percent on that and he was very unhappy about that. That split the parting of the ways which was fine by then because everybody knew us, and we waited a year to go back to the club. That is legal, you can go back on your own but you have to wait a year. From then on I did the booking for ourselves. Fort Lauderdale was fun, we played at the Jolly Roger, the beach was there and remember when they made the movie, "Where the Boys are" Connie Francis, and the boys were there, the college kids, were on the beaches there. We wore pirate type costumes. Our music didn't go over too well with all of those guys there. They wanted dirty comedy also. Woody Woodberry, is what they wanted to hear. It was a nice stay for us and next we went to Winnemucca, Nevada. We got into Winnemucca and it was at the Star Broiler and

PAGE6 Joe Mackey, was the owner and we went in and Will asked the bar tender if he was Joe Mackey and he said that I wish that I was. Joe Mackey was in a jump suit and he was working on the stage, tools all over the stage and he had hammers and wrenches and he said I am Joe Mackey. I said we are Jeannie and Will and he said go and set up. What about all these tools and he said just shove them out of the way. He was a real dynamo, he was the best thing that ever happened to Winnemucca, Nevada, he brought in business, personality and he made things happen in Winnemucca and he really put Winnemucca on the map. J: He helped a lot of down and out people and if you didn't have a job you were out. S: This was 1959 that you came to Winnemucca? J: And we stayed at the Star two and a half years and then we went out on the road, to Casper, Wyoming to the Ramada Inn and then other places in Wyoming and Idaho and Montana. And then we came back and played a year and a half for Joe. Joe said that anytime you want to come back just pick up the phone. S: Tell me a little bit about Joe, do you know where he was born and about his background. J: He was born in Arkansas. His brother Red Mackey was in business with him at the time but he went up to Alaska. Joe's mother was here, and she used to cook in wood cutter's camps lots of years ago. They had his kids Tommy and Sharon and Zo, his wife, she worked. She would cocktail waitress, she would help with the business. They both worked awfully hard to make the business, go and they were good looking people, and just real aggressive in a nice way. Joe bought the old Sonoma Inn and he modelled that and made it into the Winner's Inn and he bought the club across the street. W: I forget what that club was called before that but he called it the Red Bull, it is now J.B.Libbys but he made that into a bar room. J: He would bring people in and bring busses in and he kept it in his head, it wasn't written down. He knew he was going to remodel or change something. One of the entertainers said that talking to Joe Mackey was like trying to talk to an express train, he really would go through fast and we thoroughly enjoyed working for that man. S: You were going to tell me about one of the dances at Shurz and that was after one of the gigs that you had at Tonopah, I believe. J: We just closed at the Mizpah Hotel and some people up there had a club, at Shurz and they said Jeannie and Will would you come down and play for the indian dance and we said sure. We went down there and we started playing at seven o'clock that evening and played until seven o'clock that next morning. There were indians everywhere. The club had cases and cases of beer, stacked to the ceiling just jammed in there. The indians like all that beer and half way through the evening, they had run out of beer and they had to go to Tonopah and buy up all the beer that they could possibly get and as fast as they could get it back. When we were setting up, Edie, one big indian was sitting close to the stage and he said I have to rest awhile, and I said, why is that. The indian said to me that I am going to rest a bit

PAGE 7 before I have some more. They had drunk seventeen beers. He did have more and they hired two of the meanest indians to be the bouncers at this dance and they couldn't drink. Everybody was careful because these guys were tough. It is getting daylight and these guys the bouncers said aren't you ever going to quit (playing the music) . They said good because we want to start drinking. When we did quit, Edie, we were loading up our instruments and this back door to the club is open and these indians are throwing out these indians and you know that they are going to land hard. By this time these bouncers are really feeling their whiskey. We were going to stay there, at the hotel but I said we better go home. That is called soul survival. S: Did you also play at a dance at McDermitt? J: Joe Mackey had us go up there and lots of indians were enjoying their beer and we were staying at the hotel there and we walked out on the balcony and on the ground there was an indian snoring away on the ground, two stories below. W: He was spread-eagled below us, his mouth wide open. Poor guy I guess he passed out the night before. J: The Sheriff was called, Dynamite and he had long arms and he could really run and he did a lot of clowning for rodeos. He was tough too and two squaws got in a fight over a young buck and so two girls were fighting out in the room and the buck went up to try to separate them and they threw him out the window. Dynamite went up to get these two squaws out of the room and he had them at arms length by the hair but they were swinging at him. W: They were trying to hit each other but they were swinging at Dynamite. J: They had an old- fashioned type jail that went into the side of the mountain with the bars, and so Will and I went to look at the jail, which was full of drunk indians. S: You went on to Cactus Pete's and the Commercial Hotel in Elko this was the 1960's. J: Yes, that was the 1960's. W: We played there quite regularly. J: We worked opposite a lot of name groups at Cactus Pete's at Jackpot, Sons of the Pioneers and W: Little Jimmy Dickens, Tex Williams, Red Foley. I ran into a lot of guys that I had known in the early days, Bobby Cobert, we asked him if he was married and he said my wife is but I am not. He was one that was with Bob Manning's group but he played with Bob Wills for awhile. We got to know Joe Mafus and Rose Mafus and Rose and her little girl used to go out looking for artefacts with us. That was when it wasn't illegal to hunt artefacts. S: What was Elko like at that time? J: A lot like Winnemucca, larger than Winnemucca but Elko was a lot smaller than it is now. The nightclub business seemed very good. We really liked Jackpot because it was good for hunting artefacts out there we would do that all day and we would ask the ranchers permission to get into their lands. That really made it enjoyable. S: 1961 you went back to the Star? J: Like Joe said anytime we wanted to play there,just come on in and he was using lots of acts at that time.

PAGE 8