One Goal to Change a Nation: The Influence of Title IX

Interviewer: N. Belikove Interviewee: Julie Foudy Mr. Brandt Date: February 22, 2010

Table of Contents

Interviewee Release Form ...... 2

Interviewer Release Form ...... 3

Statement of Purpose ...... 4

Biography of Ms. Julie Maureen Foudy ...... 5

Historical Contextualization

"Title IX: The Law That Created a New Meaning to Equality‖ ...... 7

Interview Transcription ...... 17

Analysis of Interview ...... 76 Appendix 1...... 81 Appendix 2...... 82 Appendix 3...... 83 Works Consulted ...... 84

Statement of Purpose

The purpose of this oral history project is to provide a more complete understanding of

Title IX, for both men and women. Title IX, a section of the Education Amendments of 1972, gave women the right to equal opportunity in all government sponsored activities, including sports. The interview with Julie Foudy, a former member of the U.S. Women‘s National Soccer

Team, provides a personal account of the hardships one woman endured before Title IX was put into effect and the obstacles she overcame to ensure change.

Biography

Julie Maureen Foudy was born on January 23, 1971 in Mission Viejo, California. She grew up being the youngest child with three older siblings. As a child she participated in any team sport she could: volleyball, soccer, softball, track and field, basketball, tackle football, and even tennis. Her father especially encouraged her to play tennis because he thought that was where the most money would come from1. However, as much as he wanted her to play tennis,

Foudy joined the Women‘s National Team (WNT) for soccer when she was 16 years old. She was able to attend her high school, Mission Viejo High School, but due to travel she missed many school-sponsored events such as prom and graduation. When she was able to attend school, she won three highly recognized awards. She was a two-time, first-team All-American, honored as the Player of the Year for Southern California three straight years, 1987-89, and was the Los Angeles Times’ soccer player of the decade.

Foudy continued to play for the national team while she attended Stanford University.

While at Stanford, she was a four-time NSCAA All-American, the Soccer America 1991 Player of the Year and the 1989 Freshman of the Year, a 1991 and ‘92 finalist for the Hermann Trophy,

1 It was very difficult for women to make athletics a profession, especially if the sport was considered a ―man‘s‖ sport.

and was named the team‘s MVP for three consecutive years. She was also the first woman at

Stanford to receive a scholarship for soccer.

While playing for the WNT, she attended three different Olympics and two World Cups.

The WNT won gold in the Olympics in 1996 and 2004, and received a silver medal in the 2000

Olympics. The 1991 World Cup was the first World Cup that women were allowed to play in.

The 1999 game had a great impact on America when the U.S. team won it that year. The final game of the tournament, which took place in The Rose Bowl in California, was the most- attended women‘s sports event in history, with an official attendance of 90,185.

After playing soccer for over 15 years, however, Foudy became tired of the usual

―friendlies‖. Today, she has her own soccer camp that is dedicated to teaching young girls how to be great leaders in their communities. Part of what the camp encourages is projects designed to help others. Through the Julie Foudy Leadership Foundation, girls may receive grants up to

$250, to complete their projects. When Foudy is not working at the camp, she works for ESPN as a sports commentator, specifically on the Olympics and at both the men‘s and women‘s World

Cup games. She currently lives in San Clemente, California, with her husband of 11 years, Ian

Sawyers, and her children Isabel and Declan.

Historical Contextualization Title IX: The Law That Created a New Meaning for Equality

In 1971, fewer than 300,000 girls played high school sports while over 3.5 million men played on teams nationwide. Over the past 37 years, women‘s participation in sports has increased 940% with over 3 million girls playing today. The catalyst for this major transformation was a simple, yet controversial federal law introduced as Title IX of the

Education Amendment of 1972. Title IX was passed on June 23, 1972, the same year as the

Equal Rights Amendment, and granted ―girls and women in high schools and colleges the right to equal opportunity in sports‖ (Foundation). Women were granted equality in many aspects of life, the most prominent being the right to vote, after over 100 years of fighting for equal treatment. Today, women‘s sports are still not as favored as men‘s, but the increase in involvement of women‘s sports has made a tremendous impact on the way women are able to pursue equality in all aspects of life. In order to fully understand the influence of Title IX on a

―Title IX baby‖ like Julie Foudy, it is important to have a good understanding of the preceding history of women in sports, the women‘s rights movement, the creation of the law, and its impact today.

Olympe de Gouges was one of the many women in France who stood up for what she believed in: all human beings are created equal. Born in 1748, de Gouges grew up extremely interested in writing plays, and many of her works of literature focused on equal rights, not just of gender but also of race. Her commitment to and encouragement for these issues came from her much broader belief that all human beings should be considered equal. Her most notable piece of work was the Declaration of the Rights of Woman and the Female Citizen. Two years

after France‘s Declaration of the Rights of Man and Citizen was published, members of the

Society of Republican and Revolutionary Women encouraged de Gouges to create and publish a new declaration specifically for women, which became the Declaration of the Rights of Woman and Citizen. In essence, the revised declaration stated that women were equal to men in every respect and thus were entitled to the same rights. This document caused de Gouges to have enemies, but she maintained that because so many women participated in the French Revolution, they should automatically receive the new rights extended to males. De Gouges stated in her

Declaration that ―woman is born free and lives equal to man in her rights. Social distinctions can be based only on the common utility‖ (quoted in Levy 90). All that these French women wanted were the same rights as men, but they were able to influence many more people than they could have imagined.

One hundred years later, women tried once again to fight for equality. In 1840, Elizabeth

Cady Stanton and Lucretia Mott went to the World Anti-Slavery Convention in London, but were denied seats because of their sex. They decided that something had to be done to change their unequal status. Eight years later, ―over 300 men and women came to Seneca Falls, New

York, to protest the mistreatment of women in social, economic, political, and religious life‖

(UML). At the Seneca Falls Convention, Stanton promoted the same concepts as de Gouges, altering the United States Declaration of Independence so that the phrase ―all men are created equal‖ would read as ―all men and women are created equal‖; the document is known as the

Declaration of Sentiments.

Change did not occur immediately when the declaration was first presented, but Susan B.

Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton created The National Woman Suffrage Association

(NWSA), a liberal organization that was based in New York. A parallel group was created at the

same time, The American Woman Suffrage Association (AWSA), which took a more conservative approach; it was run by Lucy Stone, Henry Blackwell, and Julia Ward Howe in

Boston. Between 1890 and 1913, the two suffrage groups joined together as the National

American Woman Suffrage Association (NAWSA), with Stanton as the president until 1895.

Carrie Chapman Catt was the next president to take over the association. Catt believed in taking on the issue of women‘s right to vote state by state, but Alice Paul, who once worked for

NAWSA, had a different idea that took a more forceful approach. In 1913, ―Alice Paul and Lucy

Burns organize[d] the Congressional Union, later known as the National Women's Party (1916).

Borrowing the tactics of the radical, militant Women's Social and Political Union (WSPU) in

England, members of the Woman's Party participate[d] in hunger strikes, picket[ed] the White

House, and engage in other forms of civil disobedience to publicize the suffrage cause‖ (Barber).

After more than 70 years of fighting for women‘s right to vote, President Woodrow

Wilson and Congress passed the 19th Amendment in 1920, stating: ―The rights of citizens of the

United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation‖

(United States). Once the 19th Amendment was passed, women began advocating for the Equal

Rights Amendment (ERA), a ―constitutional amendment [that] would ban discrimination on the basis of sex‖ (Bender 197). The proposals in this amendment have been put before Congress since 1923, and yet they continue to be controversial. As Margaret M. Heckler said, in testimony before the U.S. Senate in 1931, believe ―the equal rights amendment is necessary to establish unequivocally the American commitment to full and equal recognition of the rights of all its citizens‖ (Bender 197). Nonetheless, even though the ERA was passed by Congress in 1972, ten

years later it was withdrawn from consideration because there was not enough support from the states to ratify it.

As men enlisted to fight in World War I, women increasingly filled their positions in the work place. However, when the soldiers returned, women were forced out of their newfound jobs and back into the role of housewives. The ensuing years saw significant social changes. The

Prohibition Amendment was passed in 1919, with much encouragement by women. A sexual revolution followed throughout the 1920s, or the ―Roaring ‗20s,‖ as they are now sometimes called. Women began dressing in less conservatively, as ―Flappers‖2, participating in the illegal, underground liquor businesses and becoming ―one of the guys‖. The ideal image of a woman changed from a stay-at-home mother taking care of her children, to one who ―smoked cigarettes, wore her hair and skirt short, flattened her breasts, used lipstick, and rouged her face,‖ an image that was reflected in movies and advertisements (Kellogg 247). As new views on sex evolved,

Margaret Sanger established the National Birth Control League, which would later become known as Planned Parenthood. She hoped that her league would ―limit the births of

‗undesirables,‘‖ and she ―led an organized movement for birth control, which eventually provided women with greater control over their lives‖ (Kellogg 247). The ‘20s gave women the opportunities to focus more on what they wanted, instead standing in the shadow of men.

Even with an increased employment of women in the 1930s, job discrimination still occurred. The Great Depression caused many families to lose everything they owned and women needed an equal opportunity to join the work force and earn money for their families.

President Franklin Roosevelt‘s New Deal was designed to promote economy recovery, but it also sparked controversy. In some families, only the woman was employed and some men believed

2 ―A young woman, especially one of the 1920‘s who showed disdain for conventional dress and behavior‖ (―Flapper‖ def. 3).

that ―if the women stopped working, there would be no unemployment as all the men would have jobs‖ (Kellogg 260). Eleanor Roosevelt was a role model to many women during this period. She ―worked hard to change attitudes‖ of how people viewed women (Kellogg 260).

Roosevelt not only worked closely with her husband, but she also worked with the first woman to ever serve in the Cabinet, Frances Perkins. Together, they ―formed the center of a network of women in government—women who supported each other and attempted to make the government more sensitive to women‘s issues‖ (Kellogg 260). With the encouragement of women like Eleanor Roosevelt, women went out and got jobs and joined labor. Despite the support they received, most of the New Deal legislation was aimed at the unemployed male of the household because it was believed that the family was dependent on him alone.

By World War II, a new image of woman evolved. Similar to the circumstances during the First World War, women took over the jobs of the enlisted men, both in factories and offices.

―Rosie the Riveter‖ became the new face of women. The image was of ―a woman working in heavy industry riveting airplanes or ships needed in the war effort‖ (Kellogg 275- see Appendix

1) Women were not only given job opportunities on the mainland; organizations in the Army‘s

WACs3 and the Navy‘s WAVES4 gave women the opportunity to go overseas and directly help the soldiers (Kellogg 275).

Women, still largely perceived as housewives, began to enter a formerly masculine world with new involvement in the work force5(Harvard Educational Review). By the mid-1960s, approximately 40% of women were in the workforce largely in traditional careers with low pay, such as secretaries, teachers, and librarians (Blumenthal 20). In 1963, Betty Friedan wrote a book

3 Women‘s Army Corps 4 Women Accepted for Volunteer Emergency Service 5 By 1972, over 34 million women were working (Timeline).

entitled The Feminine Mystique. In her book, Friedan emphasized the importance of going beyond middle class expectations and not just staying home to tend for everyone in the family.

Her book influenced many women and ―became the focus of the Women‘s Liberation

Movement‖ (Kellogg 400). In 1969, the National Organization for Women (NOW) was established after many agreed with Friedan‘s criticisms of society and the lack of enforcement of

Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which provided parity for women in the workforce

(Blumenthal 14). While the organization originally excluded lesbians, it became a highly visible and vocal proponent for the Women‘s Movement. Supreme Court cases such as Reed vs. Reed6 and Frontiero vs. Richardson7 made it impossible for the government to ignore or deny the sex discrimination it had allowed throughout history.

As of the 1970s, colleges and universities all over the nation began admitting more women, not only because they now had the equal opportunity to education8, but they also had equal athletics. The law that changed high school and collegiate athletics all over the country was enacted on June 23, 1972; the law is currently referred to as Title IX. Title IX is section

1681, under the Education Amendments of 1972, which states: ―No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial

6 ―A mandatory provision of the Idaho probate code that gives preference to men over women when persons of the same entitlement class apply for appointment as administrator of a decedent' estate is based solely on a discrimination prohibited by and therefore violative of the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment‖ (Reed vs. Reed). 7 ―A married woman Air Force officer (hereafter appellant) sought increased benefits for her husband as a "dependent" under 37 U.S.C. §§ 401 403, and 10 U.S.C. §§ 1072 1076. Those statutes provide, solely for administrative convenience, that spouses of male members of the uniformed services are dependents for purposes of obtaining increased quarters allowances and medical and dental benefits, but that spouses of female members are not dependents unless they are in fact, dependent for over one-half of their support…Mr. Justice Brennan, joined by Mr. Justice Douglas, Mr. Justice White, and Mr. Justice Marshall, concluded that 37 U.S.C. §§ 401 403 and 10 U.S.C. §§ 1072 1076, as inherently suspect statutory classifications based on sex, are so unjustifiably discriminatory as to violate the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment‖(Frontiero vs. Richardson). 8 The Equal Pay Act and Title VII of the Civil Rights Act ―forbade discrimination on the basis of sex as well as race in hiring, promoting, and firing‖ (National Archives).

assistance‖ (―Title IX‖). The Department of Education noted, ―As the women's civil rights movement gained momentum in the late 1960s and early 1970s, Americans began to focus attention on inequities that inhibited the progress of women and girls in education‖ (Department of Education).

Representative Edith Green of Oregon, a Democrat who served from 1955-1974, is perhaps most noted for her in work helping to develop the legislation that was to become Title

IX. In the summer of 1970, she ―introduced a higher education bill with provisions regarding sex equity. The hearings that Green held were the first ever devoted to this topic and are considered the first legislative step toward the enactment of Title IX‖ and eventually resulted in the passage of Title IX in 1972, with the support of Representative Patsy Mink and Senator Birch

Bayh (Department of Education). When the law was first written, its main priority ―was to address the legacy of prejudice and discrimination against women that denied them educational opportunities, which in turn affected workplace opportunities and women‘s social and economic status‖ (McDonagh 79).

Even though Title IX only affects institutions that are covered by federal funds, it

―applies to approximately 16,000 local school districts, 3,200 colleges and universities, and

5,000 for-profit schools as well as libraries and museums‖ making it virtually impossible for a woman to feel discriminated against by these institutions (Department of Education). To meet the requirements of Title IX there are three things schools must do. The first stipulation is that both men and women must be provided with ―equitable opportunities to participate in sports.‖

The second stipulation is that ―males and females must have an equal opportunity to receive athletics scholarship dollars proportional to their participation.‖ Finally, the law

―requires the equal treatment of female and male student-athletes in the provisions of: (a)

equipment and supplies; (b) scheduling of games and practice times; (c) travel and daily

allowance/per diem; (d) access to tutoring; (e) coaching, (f) locker rooms, practice and

competitive facilities; (g) medical and training facilities and services; (h) housing and

dining facilities and services; (i) publicity and promotions; (j) support services and (k)

recruitment of student-athletes‖ (NCAA).

However, as much as this seems like a very reasonable task for schools to complete, Title IX has become a controversial topic due to a perceived decline in men‘s athletics.

When the act was first passed very little opposition occurred, but years later, schools began to complain about having to reduce their budgets for men‘s athletics. In 1974, the NCAA even called Title IX ―‗an impending doom‘…if a plan is adopted forcing all college and university athletic departments to spend as much on women‘s athletics as on the men‘s program‖

(Kadleck). Schools found it to be a burden to generate and allocate the funds for girls sports.

Even with the government‘s assistance, schools all across the nation found themselves eliminating various men‘s sports (mainly wrestling and running) in order to comply with the guidelines of Title IX. For example, a school in Nucla, Colorado, especially feared that

―matching girls‘ athletics with boys‘ will be the end of the program‖ because the district did not have enough money to support both (Brin). However, no matter how many schools protest about the negative effect that Title IX may have on the discontinuation of some men‘s sports, nowhere does the law require schools to cut men‘s teams. As Olympic athletes Julie Foudy and Donna de

Varona have noted: ―nothing in Title IX or its policies requires schools to reduce men‘s opportunities to come into compliance with participation requirements. In fact, GAO

(Government Accountability Office) data confirm that 72% of colleges and universities that have

added women‘s teams have done so without cutting any teams for men‖ (Hogshead-Makar 262).

Schools have the capability to keep both their male and female teams and succeed in both.

By the early 1970s, 79,210 boys and girls were playing soccer as a varsity sport; of that, only 700 were girls. The phenomenal success of the women‘s national soccer teams in the 1996,

2006, and 2004 Olympics has increased the popularity of soccer, but even by 1990, over 135,000 girls were already playing on local teams (Blumenthal 103). The United States was first invited to play in an international soccer tournament for women in the summer of 1985, but there was no team to send. The USSF (U.S. Soccer Federation) gathered as many players as they could, along with a coach, from a festival for prospective athletes. The team had three days to practice before the tournament and was barely given enough money for airfare and a bus. Ten dollars per diem were given to each player for meals, the only expense that officials were able to cover for the athletes. The women were not given official uniforms to play in. However, just as they were ready to leave, the athletes were given boxes of shorts, shirts, and sweats—everything they needed, but in men‘s sizes. As they tried on the clothing, ―everything came around their ankles‖ and some of the women had to stay up late trying to tailor the attire (Blumenthal 95).

The 1999 Women‘s World Cup was the first time the national team was recognized for its accomplishments. On July 10, 1999, the United States Women‘s National Soccer team played China at the Rose Bowl in Pasadena, California, to win the finals of the 3rd World Cup.

Over 40 million viewers watched the game on television, while a record-setting 90,185 viewers attended the games. Newspapers became more interested with the games and started moving stories from the back of the sports section to front pages. They covered details from the penalty- kick shoot-out, when Brandi Chastain was able to make the winning shot after Brianna Scurry blocked the third shot from China, to the Sports Illustrated cover that showed Brandi Chastain

screaming in victory on the field with her shirt off. The photo showed off both ―a well-muscled woman with powerful arms and shoulders—and a girlish blonde ponytail. The juxtaposition of physical power with clear female characteristics… Females, we learned, could now be strong, gutsy, determined, competitive‖ (McDonagh 251). No longer was a female athlete perceived as being inconsequential. ―The once little-known women soccer players were now as famous as any Hollywood celebrity‘ (Blumenthal 112). Compared to their return from the 1991 World

Cup, when only friends and family greeted the players at the airport, the women began giving

―endless interviews for television and appeared on a stream of magazine covers‖ (Blumenthal

112). Players such as Mia Hamm, Brandi Chastain, and Julie Foudy gave the term ―playing like a girl‖ a whole new meaning and a source of pride.

Women have been fighting for the equal treatment for hundreds of years. Without their persistent struggle for change, women still would depend on men‘s choices to decided their fates and receiving recognition for their accomplishment. It was not just the right to vote that changed the lifestyles of women; when Title IX was passed, it ―provided the muscle to pry open doors for girls and women, and the determination, grit, and perseverance of a generation [that] carried them over the threshold‖ (Blumenthal 114). Girls no longer have to grow up believing that their only option is to marry and keep house for the rest of their lives. The language in Title IX also emphasizes equal treatment in work places, women can virtually be anything they put their hearts into. The enduring effect of Title IX is to ―teach young girls to push themselves and to be disciplined. If women‘s Division-I athletics did not exist, young girls may not have as much to strive for‖ (Cohen). As Nike advertised in the mid-1990s, sports give girls the courage they need to excel in life.

Interview Transcription

Interviewee/Narrator: Julie M. Foudy

Interviewer: Natasha Belikove

Location: Julie Foudy‘s house in San Clemente, California

Date: December 11, 2009

Natasha Belikove: This is Tasha Belikove and I am interviewing Julie Foudy as part of the

American Century Oral History Project. The interview took place on December 11, 2009, at her house in San Clemente, California.

Julie Foudy: With my one year old in the background.

NB: (laughs)

JF: I‘m sorry, Glenn.

NB: (laughs) Alright, so to start off, what was life like growing up in California in the 1980s and

70s?

JF: You make me sound old, Tash.

NB: (laughs) Sorry.

JF: It, well Southern California is about 75, 80 degrees every day, except for today while you‘re here. And so it was great, it was the perfect setting for being an active child ‗cuz you could be outside all the time. I grew up in Mission Viejo, which is probably the best city in the world.

NB: (laughs) No bias?

JF: No bias. It has a ton of fields, and recreational centers, and so you could live a very healthy and active lifestyle. So, I started playing soccer when I was seven, right in Mission Viejo.

NB: That‘s intense; I think I started playing when I was five. Beat you (laughs).

JF: Yeah, I know you got two years on me.

NB: Well, what was your family like? Like siblings, your parents?

JF: I have three older siblings, two older brothers and an older sister. It goes two boys and then two girls; I‘m the youngest of four. They all did not play soccer; they played maybe for a year.

They all claim they taught me everything about soccer, but they didn‘t. But very active. Mom and dad, great athletes, you know, always our vacations were spent, (here comes the bagels and

donuts) were spent going and skiing or some type of fun, outdoor activity. ‗K, can you press pause?

NB: Yeah.

(Take a short break to eat bagels and donuts.)

NB: Can you continue talking about your family?

JF: Four sib-, three siblings, four of us. What did I say?

NB: You grew up-

JF: (interrupts) Grew up here, yup. All very athletic, who did a lot of sports; I did all kinds of sports, tons of sports, until college.

NB: What sports did you play?

JF: Volleyball, softball, did track and field, basketball, pretty much everything (both laugh).

Tackle football.

NB: Soccer‘s the only one the stuck?

JF: Uh huh.

NB: That‘s cool. I still do track, unfortunately, but you know. So, I‘m guessing your parents had a lot of influence on the sports you played? Or no?

JF: Dad wanted me to play tennis. ‗Cuz that‘s where you could make the money (both laugh). I hated tennis…

NB: (interrupts) My dad used to play tennis.

JF: … I wasn‘t into the individual sports. I was more a team sport person. So I never, never ever, gravitated towards individual sports. But, so no, it was just that soccer was starting in this area, it was big, and so at school people would, you know, come and grab you for recess and that‘s how it all started. I played for AYSO9 when I was seven, and then I got on a club team when I was eight.

NB: Wow, that‘s impressive. So you started playing soccer at seven. Did your mom, was your mom encouraging about soccer? She didn‘t like tennis (laughs)?

JF: They were kinda like, ‗whatever you want honey‘ (both laugh).

NB: Go out and play!

9 American Youth Soccer Organization

JF: My parents were very laissez-faire; it‘s like ‗yeah whatever hon, we‘ll support you,‘ which was great. Not at all the pushy type, you know like we want you benching this amount by you know, this age. No.

NB: When did you first become aware of Title IX, ‗cuz it was still pretty recent?

JF: Not until college, which is really sad because it hadn‘t kicked in yet, you know, so actually, I was offered a lot of scholarships, well not a lot ‗cuz at the time there were only a handful of colleges offering soccer scholarships, but I was already on the national team so, the handful that were, were offering scholarships. But I had always wanted to go to Stanford, and Stanford was, didn‘t have any scholarships for their women‘s soccer team at the time but the coach was like,

‗oh, but we‘re gonna get ‗em, we‘re gonna get ‗em,‘ but never even knew something like Title

IX, you know?

NB: Uh huh.

JF: I mean, I would‘ve started demanding them earlier if I had known that (both laugh). And so it wasn‘t until my senior year at Stanford that they got the very first soccer scholarship. And I got it. So I paid for the first three years, and then after that they got like five and ten, that‘s when

Title IX really started to kick in. So I was like three years late, you know. But yeah, I didn‘t start to understand it till really college.

NB: Wow.

JF: Which is sad, I wish it was more a part of, like is it apart of your high school curriculum?

NB: No, not at all actually. When I was talking about the Oral History Project and saying what was gonna be like the basis of it, everyone was like, ‗what?‘

JF: Right and how did you learn about it?

NB: Probably your camp (laughs).

JF: Which is the sad thing, when we ask people at the camp, how many people raise their hand, maybe 10%? Maybe less than that.

NB: Yeah I think less than that. Probably like all the coaches and that‘s it.

JF: Right, and that‘s what I don‘t understand, it‘s like one of the most profound civil rights laws we‘ve had in this country and it‘s not taught in the curriculum.

NB: Yeah, and it‘s not even like just about sports, it‘s about like the workplace also and you never hear about it.

JF: It‘s about education.

NB: Since, well I guess you really didn‘t know about Title IX so I don‘t know how you would answer this, but since Title IX was still pretty new when you were in high school, did it at all apply then and did boys complain like since they were getting less money towards them?

JF: No, because it hadn‘t really taken effect. Let‘s see, when I was in high school, which was the late 80s, so Title IX was like, you know, 15, 17 years old, and you‘d think, 15, 17 years old, but no, but we had a, I mean Southern California‘s pretty progressive, in that regard, there were always, you know, women‘s teams that I could play on, I mean girls teams, there were, there was a high school varsity, a high school junior varsity. I mean, sports were big here for girls and boys. Whereas, you get to some of the middle parts of the country, middle America, and you know, Mia Hamm said ―I grew up playing with boys,‖ Kristine Lily, who‘s from Connecticut – that you would think is a big soccer area— said ―there were no girls teams when I was growing up,‖ so but, for this area and Southern California it was pretty progressive.

NB: That‘s lucky. (laughs) I remember at camp you used to tell us that you were called a boy in high school because of how short your hair was (both laugh), how‘d that make you feel?

JF: Well I used to wear big hoop earrings so that people would, would not call me ‗yes young man?‘ I‘d be like ―urggg.‖ Like if I had just gotten done with soccer training, you know, and I was like in my soccer sweats and I was at the grocery store or something I‘d get so mad. Yeah I used to think that my hair would grow out instead of down because it was so thick and so finally

after high school I had the courage to grow it out and realized I actually had nice hair and it was ok.

NB: (laughs) Just took a long time?

JF: Yeah. So yeah, I had short, poofy hair. It was not a good self-esteem builder at all, no.

NB: Is there anything you‘d change about the way you dressed up in high school? Would you grow your hair out?

JF: Yeah, I probably would‘ve grown, yeah I don‘t know. You‘re awkward anyway, you know, and I feel for you guys going through that time. I was so awkward in high school, you know everything is such an issue, so I always, yeah maybe if I had grown my hair out, I don‘t know.

Worn bigger earrings.

NB: Instead of the ones that just ended at the shoulders, maybe ones that ended a little bit lower?

JF: (laughs) Right.

Vanessa Piala: Did you bring a picture?

NB: No, I didn‘t bring a picture. I haven‘t found a picture of you with big hoops.

JF: Oh you haven‘t?

NB: Uh uh.

JF: It‘s in a book somewhere; I think I talked about it somewhere.

NB: (interrupting) There is a book that you like write a letter to yourself, and that you were in it and obviously wrote a letter to yourself.

JF: Oh yeah, and I talk about my hoop earrings in that.

NB: Yeah!

JF: Yeah, that‘s the one. Did they not have a picture with hoop earrings in it?

NB: They have a picture of you, but it‘s like a school picture and you don‘t have hoop earrings in it.

JF: Oh, really?

NB: Yeah, but you look like a girl, so it‘s ok.

JF: I had big hair. Eat your bagel, ok?

(Julie leaves the room for a brief moment)

JF: I‘m gonna have a little bit more (both laugh).

NB: How did kids react in high school when you were playing soccer, and to your success, especially when you were on the national team at 16?

JF: I don‘t think they quite got it. There was no, back then it wasn‘t like it is today. There wasn‘t any fanfare behind the team, there wasn‘t a lot of promotion behind it, so I don‘t, they just thought I was gone all the time, you know, like ‗where is she?‘ I missed my high school graduation. So, we were on a trip and which broke my heart, I go back and think about that, I mean it was a trip that was very important because I earned my starting spot on the national team, but I vowed after that, I was like I will never miss my college, college graduation conflicted with a national team trip and I was like, sorry I‘m making, I missed high school for you, I‘m not missing my college graduation. So, I don‘t know if they got it, I think they just, I mean they were supportive, I think they just thought I was away playing soccer, not they just didn‘t quite get, you know, it was the U.S. team, ‗cuz there was no Olympics back then, there was no World Cup, so there wasn‘t a lot of publicity surrounding the team until later.

NB: Did you miss, I know Cindy Parlow I think she missed her prom, did you miss that also?

JF: Uh huh, missed my prom. Uh huh, my senior prom, made others but, uh huh.

NB: That is so unfortunate.

JF: Yeah, I know.

NB: So, were school events the biggest sacrifices as an athlete?

JF: I think so, I mean you missed some classes and stuff, but…

NB: Who cares about actual school (both laugh). But that was pretty much it?

JF: We didn‘t really get traveling hard core until college, so and then that was really hard ‗cuz

I‘d miss two-week chunks of time at school in college, but at Stanford, being the fine institution it is, they would try and set me up, they call it a teacher aid, a T.A. I think, teacher aid?

Professor aid, P.A.? I can‘t remember, or teacher‘s assistant. It was a student who was, had already been through that class, usually like a graduate student, and those students would do like tutoring to bring me up to speed, like I‘d come back and they‘d sit with me. So they were incredibly supportive at Stanford. The professors all got it, I mean that‘s what‘s so great about that school, is they understand there‘s a lot to, you know, being a full, a balanced person. There can be a lot on your plate.

NB: I might consider Stanford now.

JF: Are you getting me mid-bite?

VP: No, but I‘ve gotten a couple good pictures of your napkin in your hand (all laugh). I‘m not a great photographer (laughs).

NB: Who were your role models growing up?

JF: Mostly men that were like maybe on the Lakers or the Dodgers, you know. I never got to watch women, so that‘s another great thing about Title IX. I loved Magic Johnson and Kareem and that whole Lakers team of the 80s. So yeah, mostly men. You didn‘t get to watch much women on TV and definitely not soccer, you know, back then there wasn‘t much on.

NB: Did you have any women role models, or just stuck to the men?

JF: As a kid, I don‘t think I did.

NB: Your mom counts as a role model (laughs).

JF: Well yeah, I though you meant mostly athletes. Yeah, I would say always my parents, I think, you know, they had a very good approach to sports and, you know, even with the national team it was like, you know, mom, dad, I don‘t know what to do about this tournament that conflicts with my high school graduation or my prom or whatever it was, and it was never like

‗oh, you know, well of course you‘re gonna go with the national team‘ you know, like some

parents would do, you know, like many parents would do probably. Here‘s your chance to play for the United States, of course you‘re gonna go! It was like, well, what do you want to do?

You know, you‘re the one who has to live with the decision, so you be the one that makes it.

And so, which was such a great approach it was like, you know, they were very hands off as I said. You know, we‘ll support you with whatever you want to do, so in the end, if I regretted the decision I only had myself to blame. Not parents, which is an easy target.

NB: Yeah, that‘s always a little bit more fun. Mr. Whitman really wants to know this question, who were your best coaches and why?

JF: Definitely Mr. Whitman, has he won a world cup yet?

NB: Yeah, my team, 2008.

JF: Oh that‘s right, last year. Well, last year, last year.

NB: Yeah, USA.

JF: That‘s right. My best coaches, I, that‘s a hard one. That‘s a hard one ‗cuz they‘ve all been so different, like Anson on the national team, was this incredible motivator. He could bring you to the point of tears before you walked out of the locker room to play a game, I mean, you just wanna be like, you know, going out to kill someone. And then Tony DiCicco, the coach who came after Anson, I think was great in that he said, ok let‘s play these different systems. Let‘s

not just play one system, let‘s be able to adapt and adjust and even on the fly in the middle of a game and so brought, I think, a lot of tactical sophistication to the team. And each one, you know, yeah, I don‘t wanna say I had…

NB: (interrupts) one really good one?

JF: They were all very good.

NB: Alright, what were the highlights of your high school years? Or did you miss them all

(laughs)?

JF: (laughs) No, I was there. Soccer, or just in general?

NB: In general.

JF: Highlights of high school years? Gosh you‘re asking me to go way back, huh. I think just, I loved, you know, my school, I loved my friends, it was just so much fun with the group that I graduated with and also all my soccer team was one year older than me, so I, you know, was really close with the class above me as well. But we‘d, the typical high school things, football games and pep rallies…

NB: (interrupts) We don‘t have football.

JF: You don‘t have football teams?

NB: No, we‘re too small of a school (laughs).

JF: Oh, right, right, right. ‗Cuz you‘re private. Well you know, pep rallies and you know goofy days when you‘re dressing up, we just had a ton of fun and the dances even though I missed my senior prom and graduation. I did have a life in high school.

NB: Besides soccer (laughs).

JF: Beyond soccer. It had a great, they had this really cool class that was geared around AP students for, and it was based on a college curriculum, so it was really like interactive stuff, a lot of discussion, so I had good memories of high school, that I can remember, the one‘s I can remember.

NB: Well that‘s good, those are good. So, since you were on the national team and you were clearly like amazing at soccer, you must‘ve had a lot of colleges looking at you, but what was the recruiting process like?

JF: Well, back then there weren‘t nearly as many teams, you know, schools that had women‘s soccer ‗cuz Title IX hadn‘t kicked in. That‘s the interesting thing that, you know, if I was in the same situation coming out of high school now, so playing for the national team, I would have, what, hundreds of schools with scholarship offers, right? Is that what it‘s at? I don‘t even know

the amount now. There‘s gotta be hundreds, you know, probably a few hundred that would have scholarships and for their soccer team, and back then, which was what, only ‘89, not that long ago, only 15 years ago, maybe a little longer, it was twenty years ago (both laugh), it was maybe a handful, you know, UNC had ‗em of course, Duke had ‗em, who else? Not many, I can‘t even, there was no team in Southern California, there was no women‘s soccer team at UCLA, no soccer team at USC, Stanford had a team but no scholarships, Cal had a team but I don‘t think any scholarships, Cal Berkley, so it was really a handful, and the ones I was looking at, the only one that I liked, I was looking at UNC, Duke, Harvard, Yale, and Stanford, and really if I had gone east, to North Carolina, couldn‘t really go east of North Carolina, you could go to Duke at the time, you know you would go to UNC ‗cuz that was the better soccer program, that‘s where my national team coach was, and Mia had already committed, and Kristine had already committed and we came out of the same class early. So Anson kept pushing, like oh I‘ll get all three of you, you can all stay together ‗cuz we were buddies, you know, you can go to school together, but I had always wanted to go to Stanford so even though, you know, I wasn‘t getting a scholarship, the parents sold off all the kids and I got to go (laughs). It was really nice of them; I don‘t really know where they are anymore, but…

NB: (interrupts) Somewhere in like…

JF: …Yeah, my brothers were nice when I knew them.

NB: So only UNC and Duke offered you scholarships out all the school that were interested?

JF: Yeah, well Ivy leagues, you know, don‘t do scholarships, so yeah, out of all the ones I was interested in those were the only two.

NB: Wow, and originally you said that you were gonna do pre-med, what changed?

JF: I did do pre-med and I did take my MCAT and I got accepted into med school at Stanford.

But I deferred for two years. And what changed was, and it wasn‘t a soccer decision. Everyone, you know, thinks oh it‘s ‗cuz she wanted to continue to play, it was more I just wasn‘t convinced

I wanted to be a doctor. So to go through all of the med school process (laughs) and rack up hundreds and thousands in loans to Stanford and then get into the profession and go, ‗gosh I really don‘t like this‘, you know, and now I‘m $500,000 in debt, so I spent two years, Stanford was great, I spent two years asking every doctor I could talk to, you know, what they thought of the profession and did they enjoy it and it was at a real transition period in the profession where insurance, the whole insurance industry was coming on and it was getting really complicated and doctors weren‘t finding it nearly as enjoyable and so, I had a lot of doctors say to me like, if you feel like it‘s your calling in life, like there‘s nothing else you can do I would say do it but otherwise I wouldn‘t do it (laughs). I was like, oh that‘s nice. And unlike a law degree where you can do, you know, so many different things with, it was either I did research or I did clinical and did patients and so I felt it was just a little too constraining. So, even though I love biology and chemistry and all that stuff, I really loved the science and that part of it, it just felt it wasn‘t a profession I‘d be necessarily ecstatic in, happy in. And it turns out, that was in ‘96, so that was after the Olympics in Atlanta that I was supposed to go. I was supposed to start, I was supposed

to start med school like the next month. After we won gold in Atlanta I was like, I can‘t do this, not yet (both laugh).

NB: What were the facilities like at Stanford, for the girls?

JF: Nice, but we didn‘t have, I‘m sure they‘re much nicer now, but they were nice. I mean,

Stanford‘s athletic program and athletic department, they were the best in the country. They‘ve won that Sear‘s Cup or the Director‘s Cup, I don‘t know what it‘s called now, which means the best and most successful athletic program in the country, for like two thousand years straight or something like that, so it was nice, but we didn‘t have, like now you find the soccer stadium has its own locker room for the women‘s and men‘s team and we didn‘t have all that, it wasn‘t that nice. And I don‘t know, I haven‘t seen, they do have a new stadium, but I don‘t know, I haven‘t seen the inside of it for soccer, but the facilities were good.

NB: Were the girls like worse than guys, or basically equal?

JF: It was pretty equal, yeah. The funding was, but even the funding for scholarships wasn‘t equal, but even then the men didn‘t have, I think they had maybe five full scholarships at the time. It wasn‘t like 11 and the girls had nothing. They had maybe five. And then I think eventually we ended up having more due to Title IX. But of course years after I graduated.

NB: And how were the women athletes treated, I‘m guessing, it seems like they would just be treated fine.

JF: Yeah, and I think when you have an endowment as large as Stanford‘s, or like Notre Dame or something like that, you, they had a really healthy approach to athletics. It was really broad based, meaning tons of teams, from different sports, whereas nowadays you‘re finding universities or, we‘ll get into this with Title IX, they‘re chopping, chopping, chopping, so instead of having twenty teams, they have maybe six. So yeah, I think they both, both teams were treated well. They still, at the time, didn‘t have a softball program, I think they were just starting that, they didn‘t have lacrosse, they were just starting that, so they were catching up to Title IX, thanks to some law suits that probably spurred them into action.

NB: (laughs) They had no choice? You won, what seemed like, a million different awards in high school, but how did you see your success?

JF: You know I was never into the awards and all that stuff, or how many goals you scored and,

I mean I was very driven and competitive and wanted to do well, but I don‘t know, I wasn‘t a forward, and maybe that meant more to forwards, so I just wanted to score, but I didn‘t consider myself to be a natural, great goal scorer at all, but I wanted to win, that‘s all I cared about, I was so competitive. And I just loved the social aspect of soccer, my best friends came from soccer, so I think that awards were a nice bonus, but they were kinda on the periphery.

NB: You didn‘t care about them as much?

JF: No.

NB: How has college soccer changed since you played?

JF: Well, like I said, there‘s so much more support and money going to it so it‘s much more well funded, there are so many more teams, which is great so you have all these opportunities now for kids coming out of high school to not only to continue to play at a high level, but you get an education, which is the most important. That‘s what I always think is the great benefit of Title

IX, it‘s not just that you‘re playing sports, which I think was a great thing in itself, it‘s such a gift, but you have a chance for a lot of kids who would never be able to afford a college education to go and get four more years of great education.

NB: How long did it take you to graduate, and why?

JF: (laughs) From college?

NB: (laughing) Yeah.

JF: I actually was ok. I think I was, let‘s see, four and a quarter, which isn‘t bad at all seeing as the average on the national team was about eight.

NB: (laughs) Didn‘t it take Cindy Parlow like ten years?

JF: Yeah, yeah, but she did it! I‘m very proud of her. It took Tiffany Roberts like ten years; she had a huge party when she graduated. Like I did it! And it‘s harder for the kids that were younger than me, ‗cuz as the national team got into the Olympics and the World Cups and we were more successful, we were gone a lot more. There were trips, there were more tournaments, and so those guys just missed, they had to, or we‘d live in Florida for a semester or for six months before the Olympics so they‘d take off an entire semester or quarter. So that‘s why it took them forever, but I got through in, I think, four and a quarter. I had to, why‘d I have to come back, for a quarter? I think I had missed, I had to take summer school one year, which was impossible ‗cuz I was on the road a lot. But it‘s amazing how if you take summer school outside of Stanford, it was down here at UC-Irvine, it was like a breeze it was so easy compared to, ‗cuz you have all these dang smart students at Stanford, like you‘re always competing against them on the curve, so they set the standard really high, so I took all my organic chem. in summer school,

‗cuz I had missed that, and then I had one last quarter I had to make up, so I did it in four and a quarter, I was pretty proud.

NB: Did you have the best graduation timing out of the entire national team?

JF: No, there are some that got through in four, but they went to weak schools like University of

North Carolina, or not at all academically demanding.

NB: (laughs) Stanford has higher standards?

JF: Yes, I would say of all time. They would say, oh we have four national championships. I‘d say, well I got an education thank you very much, if they flash their rings at me ‗cuz they were still mad I didn‘t go there.

NB: How did it feel winning every other major soccer championship, except for the national soccer title for college? Was that painful?

JF: Well I don‘t think I ever expected to win for college, when I went to Stanford it was not a highly recognized or ranked program, it never had been, which was part of the appeal actually. I wanted to help build something, so getting into the playoffs was always our goal, ‗cuz that had never been done, so when you look at it, in all the terms of history as a team, I think we did well.

I had to miss one of the playoff series for the World Cup in ‘91, which was tough, but I think that‘s the year they did the best, without me actually (laughs), I can‘t remember. Well yeah, we did alright; I never expected to win a national championship while there.

NB: So it wasn‘t too much of a heartbreak?

JF: No.

NB: Can you explain your years with the national team? Like the quality of uniforms and the interaction with everyone.

JF: Well when we first started playing in the ‗80s, we were wearing like old men‘s uniforms that didn‘t fit, which was classic, I think my first trip I got like an Adidas windbreaker that said USA on it and I‘d thought I‘d died and gone to heaven, like here‘s something that had USA on it and I got to keep it. We were paid ten dollars a day for per diem and that‘s it for your meals, and stayed in some of the most rat infested hotels you ever imagined (laughs); roaches, all sorts, it was gnarly. We went to China in, my first trip with the team was China in like ‘87, we had just played in a tournament for the first time for the youth national team, I was only 16, Mia was 15,

Kristine Lily was 16, and Carla Overbeck was 18 or 19, Joy was the same, 18 or 19, so it was the first time, we had all been on the youth national team, we ended up as a team, but it was the first time we all met that summer, and we ended up doing better that team than the full women‘s national team in this tournament we happened to play in. We lost in the final to like Norway or

Sweden or someone, so Anson ended up taking five of us off that team to go to China with the full Women‘s National Team. So we went straight from this tournament to China and so we lived on Snickers, Mars was the sponsor at the time, we lived on Snickers and Pepsi, two of our sponsors who happened to send stuff over. Warm Pepsi and Snickers, that was like the joke of the trip. Which I think is a great thing because we always, I mean for years it was like that, it wasn‘t until we really fought for changes that it got a bit better, but you learn to appreciate by going through it and seeing how bad it is. These young kids that come in now are staying in nice hotels and we always say, as old ladies do, like, ah you never had the roaches and the, but I think it‘s good you go through that, ‗cuz you really then appreciate when you turn it around.

NB: How long did it take you guys to get like Title IX standards, I guess you could say, like good uniforms and transportation and stuff like that?

JF: Well, about mid-‗90s, so we‘d been on the team about, we got on in ‘87 so, seven years into it we started to get a little bit smarter because they were requiring us to travel so much that no one could hold a job because how do you tell your boss, by the way I‘m gone for the next two months, especially like a real job, people were graduating college and becoming teachers or whatever, so there is only so much you can pay for on ten dollars a day, you can‘t hold a job, it‘s like hey, it‘s just, you can‘t even pay rent, you‘re like relaying on your parents for everything.

So we actually met Billie Jean King, I met Billie Jean King, and I think it was maybe the summer of ‘95 or sometime in 1995, I was part of a— Spalding hosted this little round-table of eight women on women‘s sports and Billie Jean was one of them and I sat there and listened. I had never heard her story about women‘s tennis and what they went through, I mean it‘s just an amazing story, and we were going through similar things with US soccer. She didn‘t know this, but as I‘m listening to her story I‘m like, ‗ah!‘ It was this epiphany; I was like oh my God. So I started kinda telling her some of our problems and she said, ―well what are you doing about it?‖

And I said, well we‘ve reached out to people at US Soccer Federation, which is the group that ran the team, we‘ve reached out to people there and we just can‘t get any response, we can‘t get them to budge on things. And she was like, well of course, it‘s gonna cost them more money, why would they help you? She was like, ‗hello you need to do it yourself!‘ Like, ‗get it together, get the players together, rally the group, and do something about it!‘ I was like, ‗you‘re right!‘ I like walked out of there – I remember flying home and I was flying in to meet the national team. I remember coming in and it was just, like the timing was perfect ‗cuz we were supposed to be signing contracts that would continue to pay us ten dollars a day, or nothing, and

I was like we are not signing these, this is what Billie Jean King said. And because by then we were obviously frustrated and wanted changes, we just didn‘t know how to go about it.

(Julie goes and checks her phone)

JF: So Billie basically said like, you need to get the players together and get it done, she kinda lit a fire under my butt, so I went back and I was like we are not signing this, no. So we rallied, totally, she was like our rallying point, and what‘s so great about Billie is, she‘s still a dear friend, she doesn‘t do this, do this, and then you don‘t hear from her for like ten years. She would constantly check in, like how‘s it going? And has no soccer background but knew our story and knew how frustrated I was and the team was, and so, what do you need? So between

Billie Jean King and the Women‘s Sports Foundation, Donna Lopiano was running the sports foundation, they were incredible soundboards for us and just mentors for us in terms of, ―here‘s the tone, here‘s what a press release should sound like, you don‘t ever want to sound angry, you‘re just asking for what‘s fair.‖ And so it was probably the mid-‗90s where we started to realize like ok, this isn‘t right, especially because you‘re looking at the men‘s team who had just come off the ‘94 World Cup, which was here in the United States, I don‘t know, you were probably too young to remember this…

NB: I was a year old.

JF: … Yeah, oh ok (laughs), perhaps. You don‘t remember that? Well the men hosted a World

Cup here in ‘94, first one here in the United States, and it was a huge success, they made tons of

money, they sold out every stadium, and they‘re staying in these flash hotels, and everything was really nice, and granted we weren‘t expecting the same because, we just didn‘t want to be in these roach hotels and driving a hotel shuttle to a game, we‘d come out for a game and pop out of the Holiday Inn Express shuttle, and it was just like come on! And we‘d say like oh, builds character, and then like seven years into it I would be like, you know how much character I have built? I am thick and overflowing with character. So, we hired a lawyer to try and fix things, and hired the wrong lawyer, unfortunately who was bad, bad, bad , she was bad, and then we hired another lawyer who‘s still our lawyer today, John Langel, who came in, and we call him our little tadpole, did you ever read Power of One?

NB: Uh uh. Uhhhhh…

VP: (in the background) Oh yeah!

NB: …maybe.

JF: In Power of One they call him tadpole angel, he was our little tadpole angel, he kinda saved the team. There you go! Get that donut!

VP: It‘s calling to me.

JF: So, he came in and was like, I said to him, well we‘re supposed to be getting this in the contract and he was like, no you‘re not getting that. And then I was like, well we‘re supposed to

be getting this! And he was like, no that‘s not what the language said. So he came in ‗97ish,

‗98ish, and changed things, helped change things, I mean it wasn‘t really until the World Cup of

‘99 until we felt like we were driving the bus finally. After we had the success in‘99 we were like, and it was right in time for contract renegotiations, we w were like, who‘s driving the bus?

We‘re driving the bus!

NB: Being one of the youngest on the team must‘ve been hard, the national team, but how were you treated when you first arrived? I‘m sure it seemed like family.

JF: That was always, and I think I talked to you guys at the leadership academy, that was always the really cool thing about the national team is they linked us with a kinda big sis/little sis in the beginning, because we were so young. I mean you have these teenagers traveling to China, 15 and 16 year olds, so they‘d link us with an older player on the team and so there was a real camaraderie on the team from day one of we‘ll look after each other and take care of each other.

It wasn‘t, even though it‘s a very competitive environment, when you‘re playing and trying to find and make the team, there was always a real family feel to the group.

NB: What was it like to win the World Cup in ‘91?

JF: ‘91 in China? Well, China was amazing, they went crazy ‗cuz they were trying to convince everyone that they should have the Olympics, and that they could put on a big event, so they went nuts. Everywhere you went there was a flower, a statue in the center of, China‘s big into their flower statues, and bushes they cut to look like something in the middle of their little

roundabouts, and signs everywhere, 70,000 a game, and we thought ‗cuz there was so much buzz about it in China, we thought ,oh this is so great, it‘s gonna change the way people view soccer in the United States, they‘re gonna finally embrace it and women‘s soccer and we came home and there were two people at the airport. One of them was our bus driver and the other was our ops guy, who does all our operations, Tom Meredith, and I came back to Stanford, I was gone in the middle of, it was the fall, so I came back in like early December and it was going straight into finals and you‘re coming off just winning the World Cup, and you‘re coming back to Stanford and the professors are like, yeah that‘s great, ok you have two hours, knock when you‘re done, here‘s your final. So, yeah, not a lot of enthusiasm towards it, it wasn‘t what we had hoped it would be in terms of the reception of the United States, but it was just another example of we felt like another chance to ‗alright, we got work to do still, let‘s continue to promote the game.

NB: So how was the ‘99 Cup game different?

JF: Oh, that was so different because it was here, obviously, in the United States, no one wanted us to do it in big stadiums, they wanted us to keep it small on the east coast and safe, you know you‘ll get five thousand so just play in small stadiums and we talked them out of that fortunately.

But we didn‘t know how it would go, and so the venues were Giants Stadium in the

Meadowlands, and the Rose Bowl, and Soldier Field, I mean huge 80,000 seat football stadiums, nationally, and so there was a lot of skepticism that we wouldn‘t attract crowds, and it would be an embarrassment ‗cuz it‘d be an empty stadium, and etcetera. And it just kinda snow balled, as the tournament went it got more and more popular, I mean we still had 80,000 the first game, we sold out Giants Stadium, and still really good crowds at the non-US games as well, and so I think

people were blown away by the show of support and people really liked that team. It was a great group of role models, and so it was much different than China, I mean not so much in terms of the environment at the stadium ‗cuz China had a huge crowd, but just in term of the reception of the media in the US.

NB: So, do you guys think you got the respect you needed for the ‘91 game, or not at all?

JF: Oh for the ‘91 World Cup? Well, we always say it‘s still the best kept secret, no one knows that we won it, but I think as a player you‘re not in it for people to say, oh that was so great you won, it‘s like you just wanna win personally and for the team, so…

NB: You still get to say you won in ‘91.

JF: …Exactly! You‘re a World Cup champion; I don‘t care if my mom and dad didn‘t know, I knew. I had to convince my dad actually to go in ‘91. He was like, honey that‘s my really busy time of the year. I was like dad, ‗k let‘s talk what a World Cup is. World Cup 101, neither of them knew about soccer. I was like it‘s the first ever for women; we‘ve been fighting for this for quite a while, so when they got there and it was so nuts they were like, oh! We had no idea, thank goodness you told us to come!

NB: What type of pressure did your team feel in the ‘99 game?

JF: We knew we had to keep winning to be successful, or more successful, I think it already was successful, but it‘s funny, that was a really fun group ‗cuz we didn‘t take too much seriously, we trained seriously but there was always laughter and joking and so it was more like, here‘s a great opportunity—which is a Billie Jean King saying, pressure is a privilege, she used to always say.

And that‘s how we looked at it, and that‘s what we used to say, like here we finally get to show the world how good we are, so let‘s enjoy it and rejoice in it, rather than shrink in the spotlight.

NB: Do you think that women‘s soccer will ever become as popular, or close to, as it was during the World Cup in‘99? ‗Cuz right now no one really watches the games and stuff.

JF: Yeah, I do, I just think it‘s hard to, like everything was aligned, if they ever had a World Cup here back in the States, I think you could generate the same enthusiasm, it‘s hard though when: a) let‘s go back to ‘99, you had an organizing committee that spent three years, two years, entirely on promoting the event, which you just don‘t get from US soccer, it was a separate organizing committee that they had put together, but as the women‘s national team is playing now you don‘t know anything about where the games are, you don‘t get much marketing, so they had three years of promoting it. It was in the middle of the summer, which was a really slow time in the sports world, so you have some baseball going on, but you don‘t have college football, you don‘t have football, you have some basketball going on, but it‘s the middle of the summer it‘s not like the playoff race, so it‘s like a great window to host an event. And then you had a really interesting array of personalities on that team—and Mia, she carried the sport of her shoulders for quite a while. So all those things kinda came together and it‘s hard to replicate, I mean when they had the World Cup in 2003, here in the United States, we only got it ‗cuz of

SARS in China, so they literally had like one month to promote it and people were like, ah it didn‘t compare to ‘99. Well, of course it didn‘t, we got it just because of SARS. We weren‘t ready to host it and it was in September, ‗cuz China was having it in September, which is in the middle of football, college football, the playoff race for baseball. So I think they could do it, they would need the same type of lead time again to replicate it. When a World Cup will come back to the United States I don‘t know, because of the Olympics it‘s harder to do, there are so many other sports it‘s hard to create that tension. You have Michael Phelps, and even our winning in 2008 didn‘t draw a lot of attention, for that moment it did, but you don‘t really hear about it now.

NB: Nope, not really. Since you were on the field when Brandi ‗got naked‘, what were your thoughts? Mr. Whitman wanted me to phrase the question like that, I promise.

JF: (laughs) You telling me these are his questions? My phone, sorry.

(Pause while Julie gets her phone)

JF: I was gonna call him, too, to tell him congratulations for beating my cardinal, damn him.

I‘m having another donut, yes. Get that on the tape! (both laugh) I am on my second donut!

NB: I think that‘s your third.

JF: But it‘s the other half, just the other half, Tash. What was the question?

NB: Since you were on the field with Brandi ‗got naked,‘ what were your thoughts? (See

Appendix 2)

JF: Oh right, there had been all this talk prior to Brandi getting naked, well a) Brandi did like a naked photo shoot during the World Cup, so that was the one thing, and then David Letterman was doing all these things on like ‗Babe City‘ and he wants to be the mayor. Our team was Babe

City and he wants to be the mayor of Babe City, so all the questions leading to, as more and more people were watching, were, are you guys just popular just ‗cuz you‘re attractive looking bunch, which I thought was a bunch of bull, a) yes, it was probably more appealing to watch attractive women, but it was because we were winning, if we had been an attractive looking group that sucked no one would care. So we were winning was the most important thing, that‘s what people loved. But I was a little tired of answer the question, I was like come on! We‘re winning damnit! My first reaction when she ripped her shirt off was like, ―noooo! Now I‘m gonna have to answer so many questions about this!‖ But I don‘t think it was staged, Brandi was a total soccer junkie and grew up watching men rip their shirts off and that‘s what she did. I mean it helps when you don‘t have a beer gut and a donut gut like I do (laughs). If I had ripped my shirt off it would‘ve been like, what is she doing?

NB: How about the post-game reactions to Brandi and your team?

JF: What do you mean, in regards to her ripping her shirt off?

NB: Yeah.

JF: Well, that was now the focus, which was why my reaction was like, oh God, now I‘m gonna have to answer this question after I‘ve been answering the Babe City and the… We jokingly used to refer to our house that I lived in, prior to the ‘99 World Cup, a bunch of us lived together and we called ourselves the ‗booters with hooters‘, because we clearly didn‘t have any hooters.

So it was clearly sarcasm and that got out in the press, we were the booters with hooters, which people thought was pretty funny, but like women‘s groups were like, you know. We‘re like, no it‘s sarcasm, we were just trying to be funny. So like those kind of questions, and the whole sexuality stuff, I was getting a little tired of, so we had to deal with more of that after she did that. But the other flip side of it is that you have this lasting image of these really strong women, athletic woman, celebrating, it‘s like pure joy, I love that shot. It‘s like this raw emotion of like,

―Yes!‖, and she‘s so strong, it‘s like go on!

NB: So why did you choose to retire?

JF: ‗Cuz I was old (laughs).

NB: You‘re not old!

JF: Well, I mean I‘d been playing on the team for 17, 18 years and just knew it was time after the Olympics in 2004. It wasn‘t like, oh I‘ll wait and see what happens in 2004 and retire. I

wanted to do other things, mostly. I loved soccer, but I got to a point where friendlies, you know what friendlies are?

NB: Nope.

JF: Where you play a country, but it‘s just a friendly.

NB: Uh huh.

JF: So like it‘s for nothing, it‘s just like a TV game or just training. I mean it‘s a real game, but it‘s not like for the Olympics or a World Cup. I get to the point where I‘m like bored with friendlies. It‘s like I want an Olympics or a World Cup, like I don‘t wanna do just plain friendlies, and that‘s not a good sign really. Where the only time where I could really get enthused was when everything was on the line, ‗cuz you get to that, having tasted it so often in these big tournaments and the excitement of it and the pressure, that the other stuff became like uh, let‘s get to the big stuff. I loved the team and all of that and enjoyed it, but I just knew, and I think I had always had a lot of different interests in life, things I was doing while playing, I was president of the Women‘s Sports Foundation, I did a lot of the Title IX stuff, I did a lot of advocacy stuff, so soccer was my passion, but I needed other things in life, I needed it to be balanced or else I would…

NB: You needed a new hobby (laughs)?

JF: Yeah, I was ready to try some of those other things.

NB: How did your soccer experience shape your post-playing years?

JF: How did my soccer experience, it shaped my, oh like my life after soccer?

NB: Uh huh.

JF: Well, it‘s why I started the leadership academy10, because my life after soccer was shaped entirely by soccer. I mean it‘s…

NB: Can‘t get away from it.

JF: Well, everything you learn in life you learn, a microcosm of it is on the soccer field— how to work with a group, how to deal with setbacks, how to push yourself, how to be dedicated to something, how to find confidence when things aren‘t great, or you‘re not doing well. I mean it‘s all these lessons you constantly, and situations, you‘re constantly dealing with in life, I find I draw on from my soccer days. It‘s exactly why we started the leadership academy because I always felt that the great gift of soccer and sports has been not winning the medals and the accolades, but you become a stronger person and a more confident person and you‘re willing to try and do new things and takes risks because you‘re an athlete and you‘ve done it on the field

10 The Julie Foudy Sports Leadership Academy

and you‘ve done it with teammates. So I really think that, everyday there‘s something I call on that I learned from sports or from my teammates.

NB: What have you done since you stopped playing soccer?

JF: What have you done for me lately? Let‘s see, I, since I retired in 2004? Well, let‘s see if we were to go chronologically, so in 2006 I started the leadership academy, we also started the foundation, the Julie Foudy Leadership Foundation along with it, so we could provide the scholarships and do other great work and in itself the foundation is a lot of work. Speaking of work, in hindsight, I don‘t think I would‘ve done it myself (laughs), probably would‘ve linked with someone else, and have been working for ESPN for the past three years, and am just renewing that contract for another two— so covered World Cups and Euros and women‘s World

Cups and so mostly between… oh and had two kids! (laughs)

NB: Can‘t forget them!

JF: Small detail. So mostly television work, did the Olympics for NBC, the last two Olympics, so did the other side of it, which was interesting. I did the winter Olympics and the summer

Olympics, so mostly television, the leadership academy, and my Foundation, and of course my first priority— the kids, which is the greatest gift in life really.

NB: When did you work for the Women‘s Sports Foundation?

JF: Oh I did actually, well I was president of the Foundation while I was still playing. They have two years terms, that was in like 2001, 2002 maybe, and then I actually, after I retired I actually did some advocacy work for them for Title IX. So I went to the Hill, to Capitol Hill, a lot and they were doing a— they are still doing, but they do a really cool program called

GoGirlGo! I think I used some of the curriculum at the leadership academy. I used one story of it, I don‘t know if I did. Yeah, you probably read, you know where it talks about the athletes, they little short stories on the athletes…

NB: Oh, yeah!

JF: …They talk about like a theme like self-confidence, or negative-behavior, so they use the athletes and they put together this really cool curriculum, but they go in these different cities and try and get kids from underserved communities active, and they wrap this curriculum around the activity to try and teach them life lessons. But, so I did a lot of work on Capitol Hill trying to get money for the program.

NB: How‘d that go?

JF: It was actually really interesting, an interesting tutorial on politics and how that all works, and you‘re trying to get funding for something you love which is basically helping more girls get active. So it was mostly Title IX and the GoGirlGo! stuff and dealt a lot with like Obama, his office at the time he was a Senator. We had a big program in Chicago, so Senator Durbin and some other Senator from Illinois, so got to know his, those two in office pretty well, which

comes in handy now that one of them‘s the president. So it was great, when I started working for

ESPN after that I couldn‘t do anymore advocacy stuff, ‗cuz they don‘t really don‘t like that, they frown on you for getting too politically involved.

NB: What do you think your role is as a woman commenting on MLS games and I guess sports games in general? On ESPN.

JF: What do I think my role is? What do you mean?

NB: I don‘t know, I mean do you think you have a role being a woman commenting on these sports, or do you think you‘re just another person commenting.

JF: I think it‘s important to have a woman commenting, commenting on men‘s sports, I think it‘s a good thing for kids to see, ‗cuz you don‘t see it very often, but I don‘t go into thinking like

I‘m a woman, so my comments have to be reflective of that. Soccer is soccer and you see the game the same way, so I just think of it more from a player‘s perspective and try and give the inside, but yeah, no I don‘t go in thinking ok, I‘ve got to give a different angle ‗cuz I‘m a woman, to attract a female audience.

NB: How important should athletics be in a girl‘s life?

JF: It‘s the greatest gift, so I would say I don‘t care what my kids‘ play, what Izzy plays; I just want her to play, soccer, that‘s great, but…

NB: Tennis?

JF: ...Tennis might be another one. Billie Jean would disagree with me on that one. No, I think

I‘d let her play. It‘s ‗cuz I stunk at tennis, that‘s why I hated it. I was awful, they ranked me like last and I‘d have to watch my name at the bottom, I was like, I don‘t like this sport at all. I mean, it‘s just given me everything, it‘s given me so much joy just by playing, it‘s given me great friends, it‘s let me see the world. It‘s defined who I am personality wise, which is, through the academy, why I think it‘s the greatest gift. It defines who you are.

NB: Why do you think the athletic part of Title IX caused more of a disturbance than the educational opportunity?

JF: Well, when it was pasted in ‘72, it was largely an educational amendment, but in the fine print, it said it also applied to sports programs. So the 1972 legislation said a university or an institution that receives federal funding, cannot discriminate on the basis of gender, ‗cuz at the time, there was a problem with women getting admitted in colleges. There was a real preference given to men applicants, even though the women were very strong, so in law school and med school and all grad school. So that‘s why it was passed and Senator Birch Bye, who was the one who passed it, had said many times, I had done a lot of work with him on title IX, he said that if the other members of congress had known the impact the sports fine print would‘ve had, they would‘ve never passed. But he said that it was kinda snuck in there last minute and they never

realized the repercussions that, and that‘s really where people associate Title IX, rather than the educational side, the effects on sports. So what was your first question? What‘d you say?

NB: Why do you think the athletic opportunity part of Title IX…?

JF: Oh right—so because that has really been the focus in terms of law suits, you found a lot of colleges who were just unwilling to add women‘s programs. Why stub their budget in order to make room for it? So unfortunately women‘s teams and women‘s programs had to sue and college athletics have evolved over the past 20 years, 30 years. It‘s such a big money maker now for some programs that for some sports like football and basketball, with these huge TV rights deals that all schools try and make those two sports successful, so they‘re willing to spend whatever they can. Because they hope that if they have a successful program, they can get that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, but the problem is that most of those programs spend all this money and they‘re not successful, so the majority of athletic programs lose a lot of money, so what happens is they keep cutting and they keep cutting and it‘s a train wreck waiting to happen. ‗Cuz instead of these really broad based programs where you have tons of sports, they‘re cutting ‗cuz they can‘t get rid of the women, right, ‗cuz of Title IX, they have to keep their numbers, so they cut all the men‘s program, so to fund football and basketball even if they‘re loosing. To try and remain competitive and in the arena, which is their prerogative, my issue with it is that Title IX basically says to a school, you can decide how you want to fund sports, you decide, we‘re not gonna tell you, you just can‘t discriminate. You have to prove to us that you‘re not discriminating, so when a school says, well I blame Title IX for us having to cut wrestling and so—well what about the millions you‘re losing in football, why don‘t you blame

your team, why don‘t you blame that, why don‘t you blame the millions you‘re paying your coach. So it‘s just, so instead Title IX is the easy scapegoat, which makes me angry because I really think you got of wrestlers group who have lost so many programs and I feel awful for them, but their anger is at Title IX when I really feel their anger should be at the athletic department choosing to fund programs rather than wrestling. If that makes any sense.

NB: It does, don‘t worry. We talked about this a little bit earlier, but Title IX is talked about at your camp a lot, but we all kinda look at you like you‘re crazy and we have no idea what you‘re talking about, why do you think people, especially young girls, don‘t know about it and why schools don‘t teach it as much?

JF: I don‘t know, I mean that‘s a great question. I find it mind boggling because I think it‘s the most, one of the most profound civil rights laws we‘ve ever had, and in 1972, when Title IX was passed, there were 1 in 27 girls playing sports, now there‘s 1 in 3 and it‘s actually probably even higher than that, it‘s like 1 in 2.5, so…

NB: But you can‘t have half a person.

JF: (laughs) Right, I don‘t know how you can have half a person, so it‘s been huge, but it‘s not a part the curriculum, or maybe it‘s touched upon and kids don‘t quite understand it, I‘ve asked people all the time, why, how can this be that when I ask all these young girls and they have no idea what it is, and in fact when they hear about it, which makes me so sad, because they haven‘t learned what it is in school, they hear about it because the men‘s sports being cut, so then you

have male athletes who are obviously angry at it ‗cuz they think it‘s Title IX‘s fault, so a lot of the information they‘re getting is really negative, rather than understanding that this has been one of the greatest gifts in my life, that this past 37 years ago, what is it now, 37, yeah.

NB: Something like that, yeah.

JF: So, which is too bad. I would hope that they, I don‘t know who controls the curriculum, maybe Glenn does for the entire nation.

NB: Actually he is the academic, well not the academic dean…

JF: Yeah?

NB: I‘ll have to talk to Mr. Whitman about this, get him in trouble.

JF: Ask him, I‘d be interested to see how that‘s set at each school. Why aren‘t schools, you would think there is some type of national standard curriculum that schools would have to abide by, why isn‘t it, it should be like right up like next to Martin Luther King, we should be talking about this.

NB: We talk about everything else in women‘s rights, might as well just slide that in a little.

JF: Yeah, they do a huge women‘s right? I don‘t remember that in high school.

NB: Not a huge section, I know in history we briefly talked about, like ERA, Equal Rights

Amendment, and like 1848, Seneca Falls convention, just a small portion of it, but different parts of the time period when we have time to talk about it. I‘ll yell at Mr. Whitman for you.

JF: Ok thank you.

NB: If Title IX had never occurred, how different would your life be? Think you‘d be a doctor?

JF: I might be a doctor actually, wouldn‘t that be scary. Yeah, I think, I wouldn‘t, I don‘t even know, which is sad to say (laughs). I often think only that, but if I had grown up in a different area, here, even without Title IX taken affect yet, we still had a lot of chances to play. If you grew up in another country, or even a different part of this country, they didn‘t, I talk to women all the time who are my age who came from the Mid-west or the South who say, soccer? What was that? We didn‘t have that. Last night I saw someone at the mall and she was like, I grew up in Tennessee, we didn‘t play soccer. And that obviously has changed, and I think that‘s in large part due to Title IX. Yeah, I probably would probably be a doctor and be miserable.

NB: Do you think you would‘ve gotten into Stanford if you hadn‘t been playing soccer?

JF: I don‘t know actually, that‘s a good question, maybe not.

NB: You hope you would (laughs).

JF: Although I had very good grades, but Stanford loves the balanced person, student, they just don‘t want the hardcore; I did have a 4.4 Tash.

JF: Impressive.

JF: Thank you. I don‘t know if that‘s possible today, but…

NB: I think, yeah, if you take AP classes.

JF: Yeah, that‘s what I had, AP.

NB: Is there anything in your life, at this point, that you would‘ve done differently? Besides grow your hair out?

JF: (laughs) That‘s funny. Anything in my life I would‘ve done differently? No, I often say, gosh I wish I had known how great it is to have kids, I might have had them earlier, but then I look at Joy, who had three kids while she was playing on the national Team, and then I go maybe not. And people say, well you might not‘ve been ready earlier, you‘re probably a better mom now ‗cuz you were ready, so no, I look back and I am so blessed to have experienced as much I did. I went to a great college, and played with, most importantly, played with these amazing women that I got to share 17 years of my life with and still, they‘re stuck with me forever.

NB: What is this picture? (See Appendix 3)

JF: Oh my God where did you find that?

NB: It‘s online. Why was it taken?

JF: That is funny; this was for Sports Illustrated, before the ‘99 World Cup maybe, but yeah rip that up please (laughs).

NB: I just love that picture; I think it‘s so great. I heard that you were on Who Wants to Be a

Millionaire for charity, how was that?

JF: Oh yeah, that was great! I don‘t remember how much I won…

NB: I think you won half of like how much they would give; I think you won half of that...

JF: … I think I won 100 and something, I don‘t remember, and I didn‘t know I got half, I thought it all went to charity.

NB: Oh really?

JF: So when I found out later when I got half I was like, what!? I got half? Yeah I thought it was all for charity. I think I won like 125, 000 or something like that, I can‘t remember what I won,

but yeah, it was fun, and you all cheat the whole time anyway. All the athletes are like B! It‘s all athletes; it was like all the Olympians.

NB: Do you remember what question you got wrong?

JF: Yes! Because, did you see this?

NB: Uh uh.

JF: The question I got wrong, you know you have your life lines, so you can phone a friend, you can, what are the other ones…

NB: Do like 50/50.

JF: Oh yeah, 50/50, audience, so my phone a friend one was like pop culture guy, one was a friend from Stanford who was like a geophysicist person, a science person, and one, I don‘t remember the third, so I got a question early on that was like, a concert series that featured these bands; was it Lilith Fair, was it Lollapalooza, it was like right up my friend‘s ally, and I probably should‘ve known, but I did not. So I ended up phoning him early, and he got it right, whatever it was, Lollapalooza or whatever it was. The question I go out on, what state has the most active volcanoes? She is now a geophysicist, like she studies like volcanoes, and earthquakes and fault lines, and so that was the question, but I had already used my phone a friend. I was like oh my

God Chris! But the thing is she‘s such a scientist, she‘s such a nerd, she‘s like what does active mean? Does active mean, like she wanted active defined, you have thirty seconds, she would‘ve

missed it. So she said, that‘s a bullshit question, I would have totally missed that because I went and researched it, me and my geophysicist geeks, and it was like Washington State or, it was like

Alaska, Hawaii, Washington, and some other state.

NB: I would‘ve said Hawaii.

JF: Yeah, it wasn‘t the obvious, ‗cuz she said no, that was bull. So I ended up thinking at the time, oh my God Chris would totally get this, but I ended up taking the 125, that was the 250 question or something, I think, I can‘t remember (laughs).

NB: I only saw a YouTube clip of your reaction, but what do you think about what Elizabeth

Lambert did during the New Mexico/BYU game? That was intense.

JF: Yeah, well that‘s an interesting story because no one really knows, but now it will live in the oral history achieves, the, I happened to be in Bristol at ESPN sitting on the set for an MLS playoff game, and our set is right where all the Sports Center stuff is edited and cut, they‘re all behind us on the set editing, and so I was sitting on the set, cuz we only do pre-game, halftime, and post-game, so I was sitting on the set watching the game and the producer for the next Sports

Center, coming on after our game, said hey I need to steal you for two minutes, I‘ve gotta show you something, you have to tell me if this is like out of control, I think it is but I‘m not sure. So he shows me all these clips of this Elizabeth Lambert and it wasn‘t an ESPN game, it was like a

Mountain-West Conference nothing game, right, and I‘m like how did you get this game? And she‘s like, well we‘ve taken feed, which is game, they call it feed, we take in feed all the time for

other games just if we need to cut highlights for Sports Center, and someone must‘ve been watching it and noticed that she was a little aggressive…

NB: A little.

JF: … So then they went back and started looking at the game and found all this stuff, and I said, yes, that is not typical, like that is over the line, with the ponytail and everything.

NB: I can‘t believe she pulled her ponytail.

JF: Yeah, I know, bad…

NB: Shoving a little is one thing.

JF: …Yeah, well in her defense, she‘s said, and I‘ve heard her, that the BYU team is pretty nasty, and so they were getting prodded on by the BYU team, but yeah, and clearly the cameramen knew she was doing that, because he had all these really tight shots on her off the ball, which at a game like that you don‘t have a lot of camera‘s to do that, so someone must‘ve told them like keep some, keep a watch on her. So, yeah, I felt almost bad for her after the fact though, ‘cuz I didn‘t know that Sports Center was gonna run it for like three days straight, and then it just blew up, so…

NB: It‘s like all over YouTube.

JF: …I know.

NB: She‘s kinda famous now though.

JF: I know, she‘s gonna be the one like, oh you‘re that one. I can‘t believe how viral it was

(laughs). So I was sitting on the set and they‘re like, can you shoot 15 seconds saying like this is just over the top, I was like, yeah that‘s fine, we‘ll work it into the highlight package, ‗cuz I was there for MLS, so I just happened to be there, so I feel like I kinda contributed to her downfall a bit.

NB: what do you see as your legacy for women and girls?

JF: Oh goodness, donuts…

NB: Bagels, coffee.

JF: Legacy? I think, the thing I always think about is how can you unlock the potential in people, I think that everyone has the potential to do great things, they just don‘t realize it, yet, and so in, I think, sports help unlock that, so how can you, which is why we do the leadership academy, how can you get to young girls, in particular, and teenagers, they‘re very awkward and there‘s often a lack of confidence and a lot of drama, unnecessarily so, and so how can you get to young girls and say, you don‘t have to look a certain way or a act a certain way, or be the most popular or the most vocal or the captain or the president of your school and you can make a

difference in life, and convince them of that, that you have that potential, let‘s just unlock it, and so, when you combine soccer and how much I enjoy athletics, and how much I think it‘s helped me personally with my confidence and everything else I do in life, then, and young girls, that‘s why I linked the two, how can we use soccer as a way to teach them about going back and making a difference and it‘s not just that I want them to find their voice and feel confident, I want them to use it for a good purpose, which is that Pay it Forward, I don‘t know if you‘ve seen pay it forward, we talk about it sometimes…

VP: The movie dad wanted you to see.

NB: Oh.

JF: Oh you have to see it. Well it‘s the idea that if you help three people and instead of them paying it back to you, you say to them, no you don‘t have to pay me anything for helping you, or all I want you to do as a thank you is for you to pay it forward, go help three people, so those three people help three people each, and so on and so forth, and it‘s this, you‘ve started this revolution of people helping people and it all started from one person doing a good deed. So it‘s that idea that you have that potential inside of you, so I think that, that‘s what I want my legacy to be for women and girls, especially ‗cuz I think women and girls are so gifted in so many areas that men aren‘t (laughs), I mean this book I just got called, hang on I‘ll go and show you.

(Julie goes and gets her book)

NB: My mom was gonna ask more questions (laughs).

JF: Oh, Half the Sky, it‘s the whole idea that if you support women in these like oppressed countries and third world countries the process of those countries turning around and being prosperous and taking care of their kids, it increases incrementally, if you help the women because they found that if you support women in these countries they take better care of the family when they make money, they‘re much more conscious of the family and buying food and necessities for the kids then the men are, so this whole idea is called Half the Sky, it‘s really cool, I just got it, I‘m gonna read it, it‘s new, that if we just had the women running the world, it‘d be a much better place. Basically what I‘m telling you, simple as that.

VP: Is it about Women for Women International?

JF: No, it‘s this whole theory, I don‘t know if you saw the New York Times Magazine that was like this whole issue on like women being the big civil rights issue of our century, and that women are consistently raped in Africa and the Middle East and there‘re arranged marriages, and they‘re basically slaves to the men. They‘re not educated from a young age, they abort most of the women ‗cuz they want more men, or they kinda just cast the women off from an early age, so it‘s this whole idea, and that it‘s written into tradition, I mean it‘s like how these people are, it‘s this whole idea that they found now, this whole microcredit if they give small loans to women, like give them a cow and they can then start selling milk and they create these little businesses, give a woman thread to make clothes, these communities have just prospered ‗cuz the women take care of the money, they don‘t drink with it, they actually put it back to the

family, so there‘s this whole movement and a ton of these awesome charities that are working in these countries to try and educate women and give them loans, and kinda break the cycle of oppression. I mean terrible statistics of like, in Africa, 1 in 3 girls by the age of 13, their first sexual encounter is they‘re raped, I mean just bad stuff, it‘s so sad. So, it‘s this whole concept of let‘s actually take care of girls and young women in these countries and all of a sudden things, life, will be better for them. That‘s my new area of focus that I‘m passionate about.

NB: Is there anything else that I missed that will help me understand Title IX or women‘s soccer?

JF: Well, the Title IX component, I think the one thing we touched up on is, and just to break it down a little bit more, because I think this is a big misconception especially with young girls who hear the negative from maybe a boys teams that‘s been cut, what Title IX did is it what it says to a university is there are three ways. First, we‘re not gonna tell you how to fund you program, but you have to just prove to us you‘re not discriminating and there are three ways that you can do that, you can show that you‘re number match, meaning that your student body, that the percentages, so if half of your school is men and half your school is women, then your athletic programs have to be half and half, alright, and if those numbers don‘t match, it‘s ok, it doesn‘t mean you‘re discriminating, it just means that you have to prove to us that a) there‘s not enough of an interest on the women‘s side, right, so for example you have some universities that are largely commuter schools, it‘s single working moms who wouldn‘t have time to go play soccer after they finish their classes (laughs) ‗cuz they got the kids back home, or they‘ve got to get to a job, or so clearly the interest isn‘t there, so you have show there‘s a lack of interest or

you have to show you‘re gonna eventually get you‘re numbers there, that historically you have been discriminating, but you can‘t just change things over night because you don‘t have the funds to add five teams so you‘re numbers are equivalent, but you‘re gradually getting there, you‘re making some progressions, well the problem is that a lot of universities what they did is they said, oh we‘re not discriminating, we don‘t have, there‘s no interest, and then when they go in and investigate well that‘s interesting, because you‘ve had 500 women petition for a volleyball team and you‘re not providing a volleyball team, oh well no, there‘s not interest though. Well what‘s all this interest? Or you have you have seven soccer teams, intramural teams, clearly there‘s interest, and the other bit they say is, we‘re not discriminating, we‘re adding sports, we‘re getting there, and then we‘ll say like when was the last time you added a sport? Oh 15 years ago.

So, what happens is everyone tries to fiddle with those numbers so if it‘s, because what‘s happening now is that colleges are becoming large and the percentage of women is increasing, so sometimes colleges are now 55% women and 45% men, so you have to actually provide 55% of your sports programs to women and 45% to men, and so you have a lot of people who are fighting to say, well let‘s take football out of the equation, because those add so many more on the men side, ‗cuz women can‘t play it, which is bad, like well men can‘t play softball, but you‘re not taking softball out of the equation, ‗cuz there‘s so many guys and so much money that goes into football, or they‘ll say, let‘s add cheerleading in, that‘s a big push, so that it counts on their women‘s numbers and some people now are saying now, well if you have a competitive cheerleading squad that‘s ok because some are competitive and they‘re actually in competitions against other schools, but in general some cheerleading teams just stand on the sidelines and cheer, they don‘t do any competitions, you can‘t add those in. I mean there‘s constantly people trying to fiddle with the numbers, but I think the most important thing is that schools can figure

out a way they just, right now, it‘s like this arms race ‗cuz they‘re spending so much money on football and basketball, I mean they just signed this coach for a football program the other day for 5 million a year, and added to that is that schools are freezing or cutting the pay for professors, you have football coaches making 100 times what the college president is making, and so it‘s hard because you have really successful football programs that are making a ton of money and everyone wants to get there, but in the process they burn through all this money to try and remain competitive and they never get there and it kills the rest of their program, so I don‘t know the solution but the fact that Title IX gets blamed all the time just drives me nuts because I think it‘s more mismanagement of the funds, so I don‘t know if that helps, but…

NB: No, it‘s good.

JF: And tell Glenn he needs to get it in his curriculum

NB: I will, I‘ll yell at him. I‘ll make sure he gets it through his head.

(Tape is paused while my mom asks a question)

JF: That‘s an interesting point because the sad thing is you see, ‗cuz there‘s a pie of money for a university, so they so ok, I wanna cut it up in so many different ways and I know this portion for the women can‘t leave ‗cuz I‘ll get sued for discriminating if I cut a woman‘s program, right, and

I don‘t cut a corresponding men‘s program, so what they end up doing because they‘re fearful of being sued by Title IX, and rightfully so because they would be discriminating, is ok well I don‘t

want to touch my football and basketball programs, that pie has got to stay the same because I gotta make the 20 color, 500 page brochure that cots me hundreds of dollars, I gotta put them on their charter plane and feed them their catered meal ‗cuz that‘s what other colleges are doing and

I gotta remain competitive, so I‘m gonna cut men‘s swimming, I‘m gonna cut men‘s track, I‘m gonna cut men‘s wrestling, and they can save $300,000 by doing that and not get busted by Title

IX, and that‘s what bums me out because then the boys go, the athletic department says, we had no choice, blame the girls! So the girls take a bad rep, instead of saying we had a choice, but we didn‘t want to cut our football and basketball, which suck and is losing millions anyways, it drives me nuts! San Diego State, perfect example, cut their men‘s volleyball team, which had a won like a national championship, was really good and popular, cut their men‘s volleyball team and the AD in the paper and in the media said I have no choice, Title IX has forced me, I need the money, right, so there was this awesome investigative reporter that covered soccer all the time in San Diego, a buddy of mine, he, and he loved to dig, he‘s always digging, right, so he goes through all their budgets and he finds like they were spending x amount of dollars on seat pads at games for their boosters, for sticker emblems on their helmets, I mean like really stupid line items, he went through all these items, and well if you had cut this and this and this and this off your football program, I mean really like extra stuff you wouldn‘t need, you could‘ve saved volleyball and the athletic director had to leave, he got fired, ‗cuz they totally nailed him. He‘s like, you‘re right, I did blame it on Title IX when I could‘ve really just made some cuts to our football program that were pretty minor.

NB: Wow. How have you advocated for Title IX?

JF: Very good question Tasha. How have I advocated for Title IX? Constantly talking about it, when I do our leadership academy‘s, when, I was doing advocacy work for the Women‘s Sports

Foundation, we would often go on the Hill and do, because there are constant attempts to kinda chip away at it, as I was saying, with well, let‘s take away football from the equation, or let‘s put cheerleading in, I sat in on a blue-ribbon panel during the Bush administration where they just, it‘s like I‘d gone through like 20 rounds as a heavy-weight fighter, I just got the crap beat out of me for likes months at a time, and I was like one of the handful, not even that, three people on this panel that actually supported Title IX, and so they‘re constantly trying to chip away, so as much as I can, advocating to decision makers, politicians, dads with daughters, as soon as someone has a daughter it‘s like, ok I get it. Suddenly it‘s like, well I don‘t want my daughter having less importunity than my son to go to college on a scholarship, and just making people aware of the mist, and some of the misconceptions out there, unfortunately because there‘s not a lot of education around Title IX, at the high school level, it‘s not built into the curriculum, those misconceptions run rampant. So as much as I can, I mean we used to do tutorials on the national team, where I‘d say here are some of the things about Title IX you guys need to know, ‗cuz I didn‘t really understand it until I started to do some advocacy work for it, the intricacies of it and some of the arguments of why it‘s not ok to take football out of the equation and why it‘s not ok to do these certain things, so it‘s just a constant process trying to make people aware since our educational system doesn‘t…

NB: Mr. Whitman (both laugh). What do the Women‘s Sports Foundation and your Foundation do?

JF: The Women‘s Sports Foundation was founded by Billie Jean King and she always said, I hope there comes a day where we don‘t need a Women‘s Sports Foundation because it means that we don‘t need to be advocating for women on behalf of sports, but it does a couple things.

Its basic mission is that it tries to provide equal access and opportunity to sports and physical fitness for girls, so it has the GoGirlGo! program, which is trying to get kids who aren‘t traditionally active, in underserved communities and inner-cities, active. It does a whole educational program with research and studies that show that if you‘re active, the percentage of kids getting pregnant at a young age decreases, the likelihood of you smoking or taking drugs decreases, those kinda studies. It advocates on behalf, a lot of time they have parents who call in and say, my daughter really wants to play hockey and there‘s no women‘s hockey team, and the men‘s hockey team, even though she‘s the best one on the boy‘s team, not men‘s, boys, even though she‘s the best on the boy‘s team, the coach won‘t let her play, what should we do? They take a lot of Title IX cases; they‘ve done a lot of the cases in terms of testifying and being witnesses and being experts, so they basically advocate on behalf of girls, trying to provide opportunities for them to be active. They provide grants for young girls to actually train who don‘t have the money, I mean there‘s a lot of thing they do. My foundation is similar in the sense that I take sports and try and get kids active, but I want them to be active and to then become leaders in our community. So I try and, it all actually was started on the fact that, with the leadership academy I just didn‘t want it to be just kids who could afford to come, I wanted

20% of the leadership academy to come on tuition-free scholarships that sponsors, donors, could contribute. So we go into groups that work in the inner-cities, we work with groups in the inner- cities, we work with like the Women‘s Sports Foundation, groups that are in the trenches and can identify these kids and say, here are these awesome kids that would never have the opportunity

to have leadership training for a week, can she come. So, it does that, it provides grants for a lot of the projects that you guys create at the academy, so if you have a great project you want to take back, a leadership project that you want to take back to your community, but to get it off the ground you need $200 in materials, we‘ll provide a grant and seed money to get that going. So those kinds of things, all based around leadership.

NB: Well if you don‘t have any more comments…

JF: Oh crap, I need to get my boy to the…

NB: It was good talking with you Julie.

JF: I gotta get my boy to the… Tasha, I think those were excellent questions, and thank you for coming all the way out here to sunny Southern California.

NB: Kinda sunny.

JF: Kinda sunny. Thank you for making the trip.

NB: Thank you for having me.

Audio/Video Time Indexing Log

Interviewer: Tasha Belikove Interviewee: Julie Foudy Date of Interview: December 11, 2009 Location of Interview: Julie‘s house in San Clemente, California Recording format: CD/I-pod

Minute Topics presented in order of discussion in recording Mark 5 Discussing how very few people know about Title IX 10 Sacrifices as an athlete 15 Highlights of high school years 20 Why she changed her mind about being a doctor 25 How long it took to graduate from college 30 The conditions the national team endured (food) 35 Transportation issues for Title IX enforcement 40 How the ‘99 World Cup differed from ‗91 45 Thoughts about Brandi Chastain ‗stripping‘ on the field 50 Why she chose to retire 55 Working for the Women‘s Sports Foundation 60 Why athletics is criticized the most in Title IX 65 How her life would be different if Title IX had never been established 70 Who Want to Be a Millionaire for charity 75 Her legacy for women and girls SECOND CD 80 Misconceptions of Title IX 85 How colleges are spending their money 90 Advocacy work for Title IX 93 THE END

Interview Analysis

The importance of historical knowledge lies in the famous quote by George Santayana,

―Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it‖ (Carla). While this is especially true in the context of national and international conflict, knowledge of history also provides explanations for why and how events and change occurred. One of the most interesting ways to gain an understanding of historical events and the change that ensued is through oral history, in which an individual‘s personal experience reveals a firsthand interpretation of history. There are several valuable aspects in an oral history approach, but the greatest significance is in being able to listen to the point of view of someone who experienced the event, rather than reading about it from a third person perspective. Learning about the personal impact of the experience captures the reader‘s attention, while also explaining history in a scholarly way. Oral history is also an opportunity to learn about topics that are not given much, or any, attention in text books. In the past 38 years, women‘s sports have become increasingly popular both nationally and worldwide.

However, before 1972, women were not given equal access to participation in either recreational or professional sports, and today this opportunity is taken largely for granted. Through the process of oral history, the positive impact that Title IX had on women in the late 20th century is told through the interview conducted with Julie Foudy.

By definition, oral history is ―Historical information obtained directly, as in tape- recorded interviews, from persons having firsthand knowledge‖ (Webster‘s def. 1). Oral history,

in a more basic definition, is the passing on of stories, whether major or not, from one person to another, and then recording them. The stories are taken from the life events that the interviewee experienced. Oral history is significant because there are numerous points of view other than those of historians. A historian might not know as much about a certain event, compared to the people who experienced it firsthand. As Robert Coles states in his foreword to My American

Century, when talking about Studs Terkel‘s work with oral history, ―we learn through his work about our fellow Americans, how their lives go, depending on who it is (living where, doing what) Mr. Terkel has managed to get to know‖ (Terkel pg. xv). Oral history is also a good use of a primary source instead of a textbook; students would much rather read the stories of an historical event‘s impact on people‘s lives, for example, the women‘s movement in the 1960s and 1970s, rather than reading facts out of a textbook. The stories are much easier to read and are informative at the same time. However, as useful as oral history might be, the interviewee will most likely have a bias or may even lie about their experience; their interpretation of events must be at least somewhat subjective. The events that an individual experienced might alter their view on why it happened, but they could also choose to lie, to seem more impressive.

Julie Foudy revealed much about the opportunities that became available for women as a result of Title IX. Though she was not directly affected before its passage in 1972, she was still forced to experience unequal conditions in Women‘s Professional Soccer twenty years later. She combined a childhood love of athletics, with experience as a Title IX advocate, to create her own camp dedicated to teaching leadership to young girls. My interview with Julie Foudy was just over an hour and a half long and covered many major topics, including her family life, playing soccer for the WPS and Women‘s National Team, and her involvement in women‘s rights and

Title IX. The very beginning of the interview started off covering a topic that is very difficult to

find online: her family life. Through the interview I was able to discover that she was encouraged by her parents to be independent and responsible for making her life decisions, as long as she was able to put up with the consequences of her choices.

One of the biggest consequences she had to face was partly the result of not learning about Title IX‘s provisions until a year before graduating from Stanford University, in 1994.

When discussing how Foudy first found out about Title IX and how its affect on Stanford, she said ―It wasn‘t until my senior year at Stanford that they got the very first [women‘s] soccer scholarship. And I got it. So I paid for the first three years, and then after that they got like five and ten [scholarships], that‘s when Title IX really started to kick in‖ (Belikove 21). Even as colleges began to adapt to the Title IX regulations, the United States Soccer Federation (USSF) did not. Foudy began playing for the Women‘s National Team at age 16, but it was not until twelve years later that the team received the respect they deserved. When Foudy first began playing for the national team in the 1980s, ―we were wearing like old men‘s uniforms that didn‘t fit‖ and the pay they received was barely a token (Belikove 38). They received ―ten dollars a day… for your meals and stayed in some of the most rat infested hotels you ever imagined‖

(Belikove 38). While the conditions they lived in seem unthinkable today, Foudy takes their experiences and tries to view them in a more positive. She observed, ―…you learn to appreciate by going through it and seeing how bad it is‖ (Belikove 39). The nominal pay was just one of the more difficult parts of the profession; the players were traveling around so much that they were not able to maintain a job with a real salary and the schedule often interrupted their education..

It took the team seven years until they started to ―get smart‖ about their situation, especially in regard to the meager income provided by their contracts. Foudy found her

inspiration in tennis star Billie Jean King. When a group of athletes gathered in a round-table discussion, sponsored by Spalding, King told Foudy the only advice she needed to hear: ―…you need to do it yourself! Get it together, get the players together, rally the group, and do something about it!‖ (Belikove 40). When Foudy traveled back home, she told the players that they would not sign the new contracts until something changed. By the time of the 1999 Women‘s World

Cup, women‘s soccer had become increasingly popular; no longer were the women forced to ride hotel shuttle buses to games.

Foudy looks forward to the day when males no longer complain that their teams are compromised by the Title IX legislation. Nowhere in the law‘s fine print does it legislate a reduction in a school‘s men‘s teams; athletic directors have the ability to adjust funds to benefit all of the sports teams. When discussing about this frequent misconception of Title IX, Foudy related a story about an athletic director at San Diego State, who cut their national championship winning men‘s volleyball team. When questioned about why he cut that particular team, he responded by saying: ―I have no choice, Title IX has forced me, I need the money‖ (Belikove

71). An investigative reporter looked into the funding history of the school and discovered that they were spending an absurd amount of extra money ―on seat pads at games for their boosters, for sticker emblems on their helmets‖ and if those were cut, the volleyball team could have been saved (Belikove 71). The athletic director ―had to leave, he got fired, ‗cuz they totally nailed him‖ (Belikove 71).

Historically, the value of the interview was limited due to the lack of new information I received. The interview is of historical importance for the light it sheds on the treatment the

Women‘s National Team received in their early years and the specific ways that Title IX made it possible for the Women‘s National Team to find a place in the history of both women and sports.

The interview did not provide a significant increase in information about the Title IX legislation itself, as most of the relevant information could be found elsewhere. The transcription did not challenge the history researched in the historical contextualization paper, but it did reinforce and validate the history presented in the paper. Foudy‘s athletic career, without Title IX, would most likely have ended after college play, or possibly even after high school. Due to the opportunities provided by Title IX, a professional career in soccer was possible for Foudy.

By conducting this interview, I learned the importance of being prepared. A historian must have a sufficient knowledge about the time period being discussed and be able to quickly formulate coherent follow-up questions during the exchange. This interview with Julie Foudy illustrated the value of a personal perspective of oral history by not only reinforcing the information found by research concerning the women's rights movement, but revealed opinions and experiences not found in textbooks. Foudy's insight and perspective on the accomplishments of Title IX confirm the law's importance for women's civil rights, as well as its abiding influence on women today and in the future.

Appendix 1

Appendix 2

Appendix 3

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