NEW PROSPERITY GOLD COPPER MINE PROJECT
FEDERAL REVIEW PANEL
CANADIAN ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENT AGENCY
AGENCE CANADIENNE D'ÉVALUATION ENVIRONMENTALE
HEARING HELD AT
Alakali Lake (Esk'etemc) School Gymnasium
Alkali Lake, British Columbia
Tuesday, August 20, 2013
Volume 20
FEDERAL REVIEW PANEL
Bill Ross
Ron Smyth
George Kupfer
International Reporting Inc.
41-5450 Canotek Road,
Ottawa, Ontario
K1J 9G2
www.irri.net
1-800-899-0006
(ii)
TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIERES
PAGE
Opening remarks by Panel Chair 7
Presentation by Chief Frederick Robbins 23
Ruling by the Panel 67
Opening remarks by Taseko 69
Presentation by Councillor Johnson 120
Presentation by Francis Johnson Sr. 143
Presentation by Frederick Johnson 152
Presentation by Dorothy Johnson 160
Presentation by Shirley Robbins 165
Presentation by Morris Chelsea 171
Presentation by Chief Shane Gottfriedson 175
Presentation by Chief Mike Archie 187
Presentation by Art Anthony 193
Presentation by Burt Johnson 195
Presentation by Arthur Dick 197
Presentation by Francis Johnson Junior 200
Presentation by Ronnie Johnson 206
Presentation by Frank Robbins 208
Presentation by Edward Kejick 214
Presentation by Lynn Chelsea 216
Presentation by Beverley Chelsea-Hutchinson 220 3
1 (iii)
2 TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIERES
3 PAGE
4 Presentation by Charlie Harry 224
5 Presentation by Alexis Harry 229
6 Presentation by Charlie Johnson 233
7 Presentation by Gord Chipman 234
8 Presentation by Lily Johnson 247
9 Presentation by Deena Johnson 252
10 Presentation by Chief Chelsea 258
11 Presentation by Dr. Andie Palmer 260
12 Presentation by Dr. Makere Stewart-Harawire 271
13 Presentation by Jaela Shockey 277
14 Closing Remarks by Taseko 282
15 Closing Remarks by the Panel 289
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25 4
1 Alkali Lake, British Columbia.
2 --- Upon commencing at 10:00 a.m.
3 --- Opening ceremony.
4 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Good
5 morning, everyone. Welcome to the community
6 hearing session with Esk'etemc First Nations
7 regarding Taseko Mine's proposed New Prosperity
8 Gold Copper Mine Project.
9 Our great appreciation to the
10 Esk'etemc First Nations within whose traditional
11 territory we are holding this hearing today and
12 for the warm welcome and opening ceremony you have
13 given us.
14 I would also, of course, like
15 to thank the Secwepemc people for the site visit
16 that we held yesterday. At this time we have a
17 gift for Chief Fred Robbins and band council as
18 well as a gift for members. It is, I understand,
19 appropriately put on the bear skin over there.
20 --- Gift presentation from Panel.
21 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: At this
22 time, I understand Taseko would also have a gift
23 for the Esk'etemc.
24 --- Gift presentation from Taseko.
25 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: I would now 5
1 like to introduce the Panel. My name is Bill
2 Ross. On my right is George Kupfer. On my left
3 is Ron Smyth. Secretariat members, I think most
4 of them are behind me here, are Livain Michaud,
5 Jason Patchell, Joanne Smith, Maryléne Cormier and
6 Courtney Trevis.
7 The secretariat members are
8 identified by name tags and will be able to assist
9 you with any logistics or process-related
10 questions you might have.
11 At this time Chief Robbins, if
12 you wish to introduce council members, that would
13 be perfectly fine.
14 CHIEF ROBBINS: I ask my
15 council to step forward.
16 MR. PAUL: (Unintelligible due
17 to extraneous noise) Paul, I work in the treaty
18 department as an operator for the Esk'etemc.
19 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: So we get
20 the record right, and I apologize for doing this,
21 but could you spell your last name for the Court
22 Reporter, please.
23 MR. PAUL: P-A-U-L.
24 MS. CHELSEA: Good morning. My
25 name is Patricia Chelsea, C-H-E-L-S-E-A. I'm a 6
1 councillor for the Esk'etemc. I do economic
2 development employment assistance services. And
3 other little jobs that keep popping up.
4 MS. PAUL: I'm Jane Paul. I
5 hold the financial portfolio for the band. I also
6 am on the justice board. I also hold a position
7 in the school board.
8 MS. BELLUEA: Hi, my name is
9 Marilyn Belleau, B-E-L-L-U-E-A, council for
10 Esk'etemc. I also sit on the school board and am
11 a member of (Native word) forest company board.
12 Thank you.
13 MR. ROBBINS: My name is
14 Francis Robbins, councillor for Esk'etemc. I'm on
15 the board for housing and justice, R-O-B-B-I-N-S.
16 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you.
17 Taseko, do you wish to introduce yourselves,
18 please?
19 MS. SMITH: My name is Christy
20 Smith, and I'm the manager of Community and
21 Aboriginal affairs.
22 MR. YELLAND: My name is Greg
23 Yelland, Y-E-L-L-A-N-D. I'm chief mining engineer
24 for Taseko Mines and behind is our legal counsel,
25 Brittnee Russell and Carl Gustafson. 7
1 MS. GIZIKOFF: And I'm
2 Katherine Gizikoff, director of environment and
3 government affairs for Taseko in Williams Lake.
4 OPENING REMARKS BY PANEL CHAIR:
5 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you.
6 Before we get to the session, I have a few
7 housekeeping items I'd like to go over. The
8 session will go on until approximately 6 o'clock.
9 We would like to finish at that time to
10 accommodate those required to travel.
11 Safety procedures. In the
12 event of an emergency I will try to indicate the
13 nature of the emergency by making an announcement.
14 In the event of a fire we ask everyone to proceed
15 calmly out the nearest door - and there are three
16 door opportunities in this room that lead either
17 directly outside or indirectly outside - and
18 assemble away from the building.
19 In the event of a medical
20 emergency let one of the secretariat members know
21 immediately. Some first aid supplies are
22 available.
23 My opening remarks are a little
24 lengthy today, so please bear with me. The
25 purpose of the community hearing session is to 8
1 provide an opportunity for the Panel to receive
2 information from the Esk'etemc First Nations and
3 other members of the Alkali Lake community on the
4 potential environmental effects of Taseko's
5 proposal to construct an open pit gold copper mine
6 in the vicinity of Fish Lake.
7 The hearing is also designed to
8 provide opportunity to Taseko to explain the
9 proposed project and to respond to concerns and
10 questions raised by other participants.
11 It is important to know that
12 this Panel is not the Federal Government. This
13 Panel is not the Proponent. We have been
14 appointed by the Federal Minister of the
15 Environment to conduct an assessment on the
16 environmental effects of the proposed mine under
17 the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act, 2012.
18 We have been given terms of
19 reference by the Minister for the review. Here
20 are some features that are important and set out
21 in our mandate. The first observation is the
22 Panel has reviewed the information generated as a
23 part of the 2009/2010 environmental assessment for
24 the proposed mine, including the environmental
25 impact statement and the previous Panel's report 9
1 as well as the transcripts from the Prosperity
2 hearing.
3 We are interested in hearing
4 your views about the New Prosperity project. We
5 are mandated to provide conclusions on the
6 significance of adverse environmental affects. We
7 are also mandated to provide recommended
8 mitigation measures and follow up programs for the
9 management of the environmental affects associated
10 with the proposed project, should the project
11 proceed.
12 If, taking into account the
13 implementation of mitigation measures, the
14 proposed project is likely to cause significant
15 adverse environmental affects, we may include a
16 summary of information received that would be
17 relevant to a determination by the Government of
18 Canada with respect to the justifiability of such
19 effects.
20 With respect to First Nations,
21 the Panel shall accept and review information on
22 the nature and scope of Aboriginal rights and
23 title - potential or established - in the project
24 area, and the potential adverse impacts and
25 potential infringement on those rights. 10
1 The Panel shall also review
2 information from the Prosperity Review for the
3 subjects and we must summarize this information in
4 our report. The Panel may also recommend
5 mitigation measures regarding adverse
6 environmental affects of the project that could
7 adversely impact or infringe Aboriginal rights and
8 title.
9 The Panel has no mandate to
10 make any determinations with respect to the
11 validity or strength of asserted Aboriginal rights
12 or title claims. We have no mandate to make any
13 determinations with respect to the scope of
14 Canada's duty to consult and accommodate
15 Aboriginal groups, and we have no mandate to make
16 any determination whether Canada has met it's duty
17 to consult and accommodate.
18 Following the completion of
19 this assessment, we will prepare a report for the
20 Minister of Environment. The report will be
21 submitted within 70 days of the close of this
22 public hearing and will be made available to the
23 public by the Minister.
24 Your participation and
25 involvement is very important to the Panel. We 11
1 trust it is also helpful to Taseko and other
2 participants. We recognize that the conclusions
3 and recommendations that we will provide to the
4 Government of Canada on this matter will have an
5 impact on the Esk'etemc and surrounding
6 communities.
7 We want to assure you that we
8 take the responsibility given to us to assess the
9 potential environmental affects of this proposed
10 project very seriously. We ask you do the same.
11 We ask that you conduct
12 yourself in a manner respectful of the important
13 responsibility we have been given. Moreover,
14 everyone in this hearing should be courteous and
15 respectful when making presentations or asking
16 questions.
17 Use of demeaning language is
18 not acceptable in this forum. Any participants
19 who are disrespectful or rude in questioning of
20 other participants or in their remarks to the
21 Panel will not be allowed to ask any further
22 questions or make further comments.
23 Our role as the Panel during
24 the public hearing is to remain independent and
25 neutral with respect to all participants who are 12
1 before us. We will not engage in private
2 discussion on these matters with anyone in these
3 proceedings, aside from each other and our
4 secretariat. We ask you don't attempt to discuss
5 the proposed project or any of the hearing matters
6 with us outside of the hearing.
7 We do apologize if we appear
8 detached or un-approachable during the hearing, as
9 we tried to be yesterday during the site visit and
10 we apologize for that. We need to ensure our
11 behaviour does not give anyone reason to be
12 concerned regarding our impartiality.
13 Our conclusions will be in the
14 report that will be issued after the close of the
15 hearing.
16 The hearing consists of four
17 types of sessions; the general sessions ended July
18 25th, the topic-specific ended August 1st. We're
19 now nearing the end of the community sessions,
20 which are scheduled to end tomorrow.
21 The Panel has held two site
22 visits as a part of the community sessions. On
23 August the 9th we held a site visit at Fish Lake
24 with at Xeni Gwet'in and yesterday we held a site
25 visit at Little Dog Creek with the Secwepemc. 13
1 Closing remarks are to be held Friday, August the
2 23rd.
3 A few of the important
4 procedures. Our hearing is not quasi-judicial so
5 people presenting are not required to give
6 evidence under oath or affirmation, but everyone
7 is expected to speak honestly.
8 All documents filed in this
9 proceeding must be placed on the public record
10 unless otherwise ordered by the Panel as a result
11 of a request for confidentiality.
12 Copies of the written
13 submissions received by the Panel for the
14 community sessions are currently available on the
15 public registry. All participants should note
16 transcripts are being kept through the services of
17 our Court Reporters. When you come forward to
18 speak we ask that you identify yourselves so your
19 name is on the record and spell your last name for
20 the Court Reporter. This will allow us to make
21 sure that the record accurately reflects who was
22 speaking. Please remember to speak slowly and
23 clearly.
24 For those that don't speak
25 English we have an interpreter who can translate 14
1 into the Secwepemc language, and who can translate
2 any questions or comments you may have into
3 English. For that purpose, the headsets are
4 available at the door as you come in.
5 Transcripts for each day of the
6 hearing will be made available on the registry
7 site as soon as possible. Filming and photography
8 are available with prior approval from the
9 community and from myself.
10 The agenda for the sessions
11 here in Alkali Lake are available from the
12 secretariat, either behind me or perhaps at the
13 door. If you have not yet registered you can
14 check with the secretariat behind me and we'll do
15 our best to accommodate you. I should alert you,
16 however, that we have a very long list of
17 speakers, and I'll come back to that. Because of
18 the timing, we ask participants have some
19 flexibility when they will be prepared to speak.
20 We will go through to about
21 12:00 or 12:30, probably with a break between now
22 and then. We will then break for probably less
23 than an hour for lunch and then in the afternoon
24 go to about 6:00 with one break, and we will try
25 to finish about 6:00 to accommodate the need for 15
1 people who are travelling.
2 The order of speakers I will
3 come to shortly. After each presenter makes a
4 presentation the presenter should be available for
5 questioning. We will go through a list of
6 participants today and at the end of the day we
7 will provide an opportunity for Taseko to respond
8 to any information presented.
9 After Taseko's response and my
10 closing comments we will ask Chief Fred Robbins to
11 close the hearing with a ceremony. While this is
12 the general order of events, elders are able to
13 express their views at any time during the
14 community sessions. Elders who wish to speak with
15 asked to come to the microphone so I can know that
16 they wish to speak.
17 If there are any questions
18 about the process, I'd be happy to entertain them.
19 We have very many speakers and so I will ask the
20 speakers especially - the early ones - to make
21 some effort to try to be short, get your important
22 points out, but be respectful of the speakers
23 later on in the day who will also take some time
24 and we would like to accommodate as many of them
25 as we can. There is some risk that we will not 16
1 get to all of them.
2 Let me now turn to a question
3 for Taseko before we start the presentations, the
4 question is that in your letter to us of yesterday
5 you indicated that you believe the process is not
6 being fair and, so, our question is what advice do
7 you have for the Panel that we can do at this time
8 to make the process more fair in your view?
9 MR. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Mr.
10 Chairman.
11 Yes, our concern with respect
12 to that letter was what opportunity Taseko would
13 have both to review and assess late-filed
14 submissions, particularly those from persons have
15 specialized knowledge or expertise. We would
16 need, in some instances, to review those
17 submissions with our own experts and have an
18 opportunity to reply.
19 The hearing has been
20 structured, or was initially, to allow the
21 Proponent to have a final right of response to
22 these various kinds of submissions, and given the
23 fact that they continue to come in, including as
24 late as last night Mr. McCrory filed yet another
25 submission last night dealing with, I guess it was 17
1 a supplemental submission replying to additional
2 materials or evidence that he had heard, as well
3 as making additional submissions or providing new
4 information on the north western toad and wild
5 horses, I haven't had an opportunity to review
6 that submission. But this is all new information
7 that continues to come in and, as I said,
8 particularly with respect to persons that have
9 specialized knowledge or expertise.
10 My question for the Panel was
11 how are we, Taseko, going to be able to be
12 afforded an opportunity to review and respond to
13 that, given that the deadline for new information
14 is tomorrow and final argument is on Friday?
15 So my suggestion would be,
16 number 1, that we put a stop to these late
17 submissions, particularly those by persons having
18 expertise or specialized knowledge that should be
19 cut off, and we need to have a few days at least
20 to be able to assess those and respond.
21 And I don't mind having the
22 opportunity to do that after final argument, if
23 that is acceptable to the Panel. But we do
24 definitely need an opportunity to put an end to
25 it. 18
1 As well, we're not going to
2 have an opportunity to ask Mr. McCrory any
3 questions, which is also part of unfairness in the
4 process. We won't have an opportunity to
5 challenge his material.
6 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: I think, Mr.
7 Gustafson, we appreciate your helpful response to
8 the question, and I will try to get back to you,
9 perhaps as early as this afternoon.
10 MR. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Mr.
11 Chairman. Perhaps I can put two other matters on
12 the record for your consideration and we can get
13 back to us later. These are questions of
14 clarification for the procedure today; one has to
15 do with the fact we understand that there are at
16 least four video presentations to be made today.
17 I don't know what the nature of those
18 presentations is. If they're simply pre-taped
19 presentations from individuals who couldn't be
20 present today, that doesn't cause me a concern.
21 If the videos are more in the nature of, I'll call
22 them "propaganda films", then I would have a
23 concern.
24 The courts do not like those
25 kinds of materials, for a good reason, because we 19
1 all know we go to the movies because they're a
2 fantasy world and videos and movies can be very
3 misleading and are of very little helpful value in
4 terms of evidence.
5 So that was one, and the other
6 --
7 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Sorry. We
8 may be able to deal with this one. Chief Robbins
9 indicated he would respond, so let's try that one
10 first.
11 CHIEF ROBBINS: What the video
12 submissions -- we can hand them in at a later
13 date, but since the last Panel review we've had
14 three elders that did submissions and their
15 submissions need to be heard, and we're going to
16 find the videos that we have of them and submit
17 that as evidence.
18 We were hoping to show it today
19 but, unfortunately, in the time that you've
20 allotted I don't think we have enough time. So we
21 can submit those as video submissions.
22 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Would this
23 be acceptable, Mr. Gustafson?
24 MR. GUSTAFSON: I think so. If
25 I understood correctly these are videos of 20
1 submissions that were made previously, perhaps to
2 the previous Panel?
3 CHIEF ROBBINS: These are the
4 three that have passed away. Their submissions, I
5 think, we're not addressed by Taseko or the
6 previous Panel.
7 So we want to submit those
8 submissions again because they're no longer with
9 us. Otherwise, they would gladly be here to
10 submit the same information. A lot of their
11 information hasn't been addressed. So we want to
12 provide that again as video submissions.
13 MR. GUSTAFSON: We would have
14 objection to that.
15 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: You
16 mentioned three of them, Chief Robbins. There's a
17 fourth video; do you know what it is about?
18 CHIEF ROBBINS: The fourth is
19 Beth Beddard. She can't be here today because she
20 has a family crisis happening. She has a small
21 presentation we're going to put forward. It's not
22 even three minutes long. It's discussions about
23 the pit house sites, some of the land use and the
24 values about the archeological impact assessment
25 and some of the values with those archeological 21
1 impact assessments.
2 MR. GUSTAFSON: It sounds to me
3 like this is the sort of material that could have
4 been presented by an individual recounting their
5 traditional knowledge and we would have no
6 objection to that.
7 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: You said you
8 had another point.
9 MR. GUSTAFSON: I do. I
10 understand council for the Esk'etemc wishes to
11 make a fairly lengthy submission today, and I'm
12 not sure whether the submission's in the nature of
13 legal argument, or whether it is something
14 intended to address the nature and scope of
15 Aboriginal rights and title, which the Chair has
16 noted is something you certainly can receive. If
17 it goes beyond that into questions of adequacy of
18 consultation and treaty rights we would suggest
19 that that material or submission not be received.
20 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Ms. Shockey,
21 do you have, some response, please?
22 MS. SHOCKEY: Thank you. My
23 submission is the nature of speaking to the impact
24 charts which is basically as you've seen and had
25 notice of that for seven days. It was submitted 22
1 on time.
2 It's basically Esk'etemc's
3 views of impact identified by the previous panel
4 and how they have or have not been addressed.
5 That material is before you and I'm just looking
6 to provide the Panel a bit of an outline of how to
7 go through that chart, how to read it. It's no
8 new material. It's not really in the nature of
9 legal argument.
10 That's the main purpose of my
11 submission.
12 MR. GUSTAFSON: Thank you for
13 that clarification. We would have no objection to
14 dealing with it on that basis.
15 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you,
16 Mr. Gustafson.
17 MS. SHOCKEY: Perhaps I could
18 provide clarification as to the videos. I was
19 stepping up to deal with updating the speakers
20 list. So we have a few more community members who
21 will be providing that in a moment. We're
22 finalizing that. So that was what I was dealing
23 with.
24 With respect to the video, my
25 understanding -- 23
1 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: I think
2 they're under control. There seems to be no
3 residual objection to them, unless you want to
4 make some.
5 MS. SHOCKEY: That's fine.
6 Thank you very much.
7 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you.
8 I now have three schedules in front of me and I'm
9 trying to figure out which one to go to. The next
10 presentation would be by Taseko at this point.
11 Chief Robbins, I see you
12 sitting in front of me, so I'm --
13 CHIEF ROBBINS: I'm chomping at
14 the bit over here.
15 MS. GIZIKOFF: If Chief Robbins
16 would like to go first, that's fine by Taseko.
17 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Our
18 procedures indicate Taseko but it seems to be all
19 right. If you wish to go first, we would welcome
20 you, sir.
21 PRESENTATION BY CHIEF FREDERICK ROBBINS:
22 CHIEF ROBBINS: Yes. First of
23 all, welcome to the Panel. Colleagues, elders,
24 Esk'etemc, Secwepemc, welcome to the community.
25 We also have a number of other people here from 24
1 different Secwepemc nations and Tsilhqot'in's that
2 are in the crowd listening to what is going on.
3 I'd like to welcome you all to
4 (Native word), the people of the white earth
5 territory, and I'd also like to welcome Taseko
6 Mines to our territory. I ask that they maintain
7 themselves appropriately with our elders when they
8 come up to speak.
9 I stand here to speak on behalf
10 of the Esk'etemc Nation about the ways the New
11 Prosperity will impact our community. It is
12 important that you understand from the very
13 beginning that when I say I'm speaking on behalf
14 of the Esk'etemc Nation, I'm not speaking on
15 behalf of the members here today but also the
16 generations yet to come. I want to keep those
17 generations mind as I explain why we are concerned
18 about the New Prosperity Project and why we say
19 the project should not be approved without first
20 addressing the impact to our Aboriginal rights and
21 title.
22 As a starting point, I want to
23 remind everyone this is not the first time we've
24 met with this Panel and Taseko to talk about the
25 Taseko Mines Ltd. mine and the related 25
1 transmission line that causes us concern.
2 This review is Taseko's second
3 chance at a federal environmental assessment
4 process, and this time your job is to determine
5 whether the New Prosperity Project addresses the
6 environmental effects the previous Panel
7 identified; that includes determining whether the
8 New Prosperity proposal has addressed the impact
9 to our current use of lands and resources for
10 traditional purposes and any potential impact to
11 our Aboriginal rights and title.
12 As far as the transmission line
13 is concerned, the answer is clear and simple, no,
14 Taseko has not changed anything in its proposal
15 for the transmission line. Neither Taseko nor the
16 Crown has addressed the impacts to the Esk'etemc
17 rights and title. Taseko has not proposed any new
18 mitigation or accommodation measures.
19 Today I'm going to tell you
20 that the Federal Panel found the transmission line
21 which would run right through our territory would
22 adversely impact us. The Panel determined that
23 the proposed mitigations would not eliminate or
24 accommodate the loss that would result from the
25 project. 26
1 Even the old mitigation that
2 the Panel said that the project would have
3 significant impacts to Esk'etemc title. I will
4 also tell you about the many ways the transmission
5 line will impact our community on the ground and
6 what it would mean for us to see our rights and
7 title eroded.
8 Finally, I will explain the
9 mitigation measures that have been proposed, do
10 not go far enough to accommodate the impacts to
11 our rights and title.
12 Since I would like to keep my
13 comments today relatively brief, I request that
14 the Panel members review the chart prepared by
15 Esk'etemc's legal counsel for additional
16 information about the concerns. The chart
17 summarizes the Esk'etemc's concerns about the
18 impacts to right and title, what the previous
19 Panel said and Esk'etemc's view about the
20 inadequacy of the old mitigations.
21 I've reviewed the chart, and it
22 accurately sets out the concerns of Esk'etemc
23 First Nations. The chart can be found on the CEAA
24 registry number 953.
25 The previous Panel -- since it 27
1 is your job to decide whether the New Prosperity
2 proposal addressed the environmental affects
3 identified by the previous Panel, I want to remind
4 you of what the Panel said in its 2010 report.
5 Taseko will tell you that the mitigation measures
6 proposed at the last Federal Panel Report will
7 mitigate the impact of our rights.
8 In its final impact statement
9 Taseko proposed the same measures in the first
10 Prosperity Review, but the last Federal Panel said
11 that the mitigates measures it proposed in it's
12 final report would not eliminate or accommodate
13 the significant losses the First Nations would
14 experience as a result of this project.
15 This is important. The Panel
16 that actually developed the mitigation measures
17 that Taseko is relying on in the New Prosperity
18 proposal knew they would not work and said so.
19 The Panel said that the adverse
20 impacts to the Secwepemc hunting rights and
21 wildlife combined with the increased access and
22 loss of culture makes the affects of the
23 transmission line of the Secwepemc long term and
24 potentially irreversible, and the Panel's
25 recommendations would not eliminate or accommodate 28
1 the significant loss First Nations would
2 experience as a result of the project. It's at
3 page 219 and 245 of the Panel's report.
4 So what are these impacts? The
5 last Panel said that the transmission line will
6 reduce the lands available to our treaty
7 settlement selection. To paint a clear picture,
8 the transmission line will require 30 to 80 metres
9 of swath of a clear cut along the right of way
10 that is nearly 7 kilometres long through our
11 territory.
12 The last Panel said that this
13 will reduce the title land available for treaty
14 settlement and may result in loss of current use,
15 evidence in the area is taken up for the
16 transmission line.
17 Our First Nations has already
18 witnessed the increased development of our
19 traditional lands, cuts into our title lands and
20 lands available for our treaty settlement lands
21 will have a profound, long term impact on our
22 Aboriginal rights and title. It will take away
23 the lands that are available for our future.
24 Neither Taseko nor the Crown
25 have proposed alternative mitigations or 29
1 accommodation measures to address these impacts to
2 title. It doesn't matter where the line is
3 located long, as it goes through our traditional
4 territory. There will be significant adverse
5 impacts to our title.
6 In addition, the transmission
7 line will be in the place indefinitely with no
8 foreseeable end-date. We believe the impact to
9 title will be more serious than those identified
10 by the previous Panel. Even Taseko admits the
11 degree of impact to rights and title depend on how
12 long the transmission line is active before
13 de-commissioning; see pages 1013, 1014 of the
14 Taseko EIS for more information on impact to
15 Esk'etemc's title. Please see page 1 to 5 of the
16 impact charts.
17 The last Panel found the
18 affects of the line on the Secwepemc may be long
19 term and irreversible because the transmission
20 line will need to increase non-Aboriginal access
21 to the area, a loss of connectivity to the land
22 and the culture, and direct impacts to wildlife.
23 It's important you remember
24 that the proposal for the line is exactly the same
25 as the New Prosperity project. That means 30
1 everything I just told you about the last Panel is
2 still true with this project. We will see impact
3 to our treaty lands. We'll see significant
4 impacts to title. We'll see negative effects on
5 our Aboriginal rights to hunt, harvest and plant,
6 plants for medicines.
7 We will see the interference of
8 our community forests, old growth management
9 trees, habitat for mule deer and moose breeding
10 and winter habitat. We will see interference in
11 disturbances of the areas available for us for
12 fasting and spiritual wellness and activities.
13 We will see impact to areas
14 that are deeply important to us for culture and
15 spiritual reasons. That being the case, I can't
16 see how this Panel could decide anything different
17 from the previous Panel.
18 The impact of the project. I
19 would now like to tell you about these impacts and
20 what they mean to Esk'etemc First Nations on the
21 ground, what will the New Prosperity project's
22 impact to our Aboriginal title like look and why
23 do they matter to us so much.
24 Esk'etemc members continue to
25 exercise Aboriginal rights and culture throughout 31
1 the traditional land. We see ourselves as
2 environmental stewards responsible for respecting
3 the land and resources that support us and for
4 protecting those lands for future generations.
5 When the government and
6 Proponents talk about the current use of lands, I
7 think they need to understand what our land really
8 means to us. When we hunt, trap and fish, we go
9 out and gather plants and medicines, we're on the
10 land to honour our traditions and cultural
11 practices from future and past generations. We
12 are connecting with the land of our ancestors.
13 We take our children out and we
14 use this to pass our traditions and teach them
15 about the culture and the spirituality of the
16 Esk'etemc people. That is why each of these
17 resources we rely on when exercising our rights
18 are so important to us and this is why we are
19 concerned about the transmission line's impact to
20 Aboriginal rights and title.
21 I want to highlight a few of
22 the impacts to our culture by encouraging the
23 Panel and members to review the impact chart for a
24 full understanding of concerns.
25 The proposed transmission line 32
1 will be the largest clearcut through the Esk'etemc
2 community forest ever, as long as it's a linear
3 clearcut it will have direct impacts to the
4 wildlife, including important habitat for mule
5 deer and moose where many of our members hunt.
6 The EIS said that this area and
7 the area around the mine is part of the winter
8 range for these animals and also in the migratory
9 path. It is also the area where the mule deer and
10 the moose breed and migrate through.
11 We understand this area is very
12 important for both mule deer and moose, that is
13 why we when harvest trees we selectively log to
14 preserve their habitat in our community forest.
15 When projects like the
16 transmission line remove their habitat or force
17 our animals to change their migration patterns, it
18 effects the Esk'etemc hunters. It effects their
19 rights and their title to hunt. They will have to
20 change the patterns too in order to find the
21 animals.
22 The transmission line will
23 displace Esk'etemc hunters from their preferred
24 locations. In the last hearing we said there are
25 no similar habitats available for Esk'etemc 33
1 hunters. This area is rare and unique. There is
2 no other area close to Esk'etemc where mule deer
3 and moose can migrate, breed and remain close to
4 the community for our hunting needs.
5 The problem does not go away if
6 you move the transmission outside the community
7 forest. All that moving the transmission line
8 does is move the clearcut. The habitat will still
9 be destroyed. The clearcut will still happen in
10 our hunting grounds. The deer and the moose will
11 still move away and we'll still lose our ability
12 to hunt, to harvest, for ceremonies and
13 traditional and cultural activities in and around
14 the transmission line corridor.
15 The clearcut's will also impact
16 our ability to harvest plants, berries and
17 medicines that are important to us.
18 The last Panel noted that the
19 transmission line would have a negative effect on
20 the Secwepemc people's ability to harvest
21 culturally-significant plants.
22 If the plants are cleared this
23 will have a profound impact on our harvesting
24 rights. Even Taseko acknowledged that the
25 transmission line could result in the loss of 34
1 vegetation species that were of interest or values
2 to First Nations. This was in the last Panel's
3 report on page 186.
4 Above and beyond the
5 displacement of wildlife habitat and impact to
6 vegetation, the transmission line would completely
7 change the landscape in our territory.
8 The visual features that will
9 be changed indefinitely by the transmission line,
10 and by the cut line, just as the animals will
11 avoid transmission line corridors, hunters will
12 too.
13 Our fishers will not fish next
14 to a hydro line. Our members won't want to gather
15 along a corridor where vegetation and berries are
16 dry and poor quality. They won't fast or use
17 areas for their sacred ceremonies because the
18 transmission line corridor will disrupt the peace
19 and the privacy they need for the ceremony, and
20 the privacy the we need for hunting and fishing
21 and gathering and importantly for prayer.
22 It will interfere with the
23 places our families and our community gather and
24 have ceremonies to connect us to the land and
25 remind us who we are. 35
1 I think I speak for all
2 Esk'etemc and Secwepemc people when I say we need
3 the land to feel that it is like it's natural
4 wilderness state to truly exercise our rights.
5 The clearcut transmission line will rob the area
6 of it's inherent natural value. It will take away
7 the peace of mind, our connection to the land and
8 our resources and our spirit.
9 I want to pause here and ensure
10 everyone can understand what we are trying to say.
11 I know that the courts and lawyers talk about the
12 need to understand the Aboriginal perspective, and
13 this is what I'm trying to convey to the Panel
14 members here today.
15 This is not simply about how
16 many deer, moose might get displaced or which
17 plants might be removed as a result of the
18 transmission line corridor.
19 Today I'm here talking about
20 the impact to our Esk'etemc rights, our Aboriginal
21 title and our way of life. We have said that the
22 area of our territory that the transmission line
23 will cross is a rare and unique area for
24 harvesting rights and the habitat we rely upon for
25 these rights. 36
1 This is critical. We can't go
2 elsewhere. There are not many other places for us
3 to use. It is a crucial habitat and we can't go
4 anywhere else. There are many other places for us
5 to go as private lands, other developments and
6 roads have reduced these places and we can hunt
7 and gather and trip and fish and practice our
8 ceremonies.
9 We are talking about the
10 displacing of Esk'etemc. We won't be able to
11 teach our youth. With every slice into our
12 traditional land we'll lose more of our ability to
13 pass on our traditions and maintain our way of
14 life.
15 I don't believe Taseko
16 understands our culture, our way of life and the
17 importance of these lands to our identity as
18 Secwepemc people.
19 In it's EIS, Taseko says the
20 Aboriginal communities, the business income
21 generated, will provide quality of life, a sense
22 of personal security and has a symbolic value
23 which contributes to a person's own self-image and
24 status within the community. This is on page
25 1319. 37
1 This statement demonstrates a
2 major assumption about who we are and what
3 provides Esk'etemc people with quality of life.
4 Our quality of life is not just
5 about money. We have told them before our quality
6 of life is improved when you can manifest and
7 practice culture on the land. This is part of our
8 identity, as it is who we are. Taking away our
9 ability to survive on the land and teach our
10 children how to survive by taking these lands away
11 from us would diminish the quality of life.
12 Keeping this perspective in
13 mind, I want to discuss another important impact
14 of the transmission line. The last time we went
15 to discuss Taseko's Prosperity mine a number of
16 Esk'etemc members said the transmission line
17 crosses areas where they go for ceremonies, for
18 answers from the creators and for the spiritual
19 and fasting purposes.
20 We also said that there are
21 very few areas in Esk'etemc members can go for
22 ceremonies and fasting because of the developments
23 through our territory. We have identified 7
24 sacred areas and 9 protected areas that will be
25 impacted by the New Prosperity project. These 38
1 sites are fundamental to who we are and our way of
2 life.
3 At the last Panel hearing I
4 said that the transmission line is going right
5 through the centre of one of our sacred areas and
6 we've put that forward in the treaty process. It
7 is like going through our main hunting area.
8 The last report said even
9 Taseko admitted a number of sites won't be
10 mitigated and will ultimately be lost if the
11 project proceeds. That's page 189.
12 One of our main ceremony areas
13 which has been used for fishing, fasting and
14 ceremonies for many generations is called Little
15 Dog.
16 At the last hearing one of our
17 members, Frederick Johnson, spoke about Little
18 Dog. This is the area where the transmission line
19 crossed the Fraser River at our sacred site.
20 Frederick said that we need to maintain that area
21 because our visit to sacred areas are conducted in
22 cycles so we don't disturb our area for too long.
23 It is important because Little
24 Dog is a fasting site that is close to our pit
25 house sites, grave sites, burial sites. 39
1 I'd like to read one of
2 Fredrick's comments, because it's been addressed
3 in this process:
4
5 "When I look at putting
6 a transmission line through
7 our sacred read areas, it
8 will effect me simply
9 because when I have fasted
10 before the harmony and
11 peacefulness of the forest
12 that is un-touched makes
13 the fasting so much better."
14
15 This is a quote from page 4994
16 and 4995 of the last community hearing transcript.
17 The last Panel acknowledged that remoteness is the
18 important part of fasting, cleansing and other
19 cultural practices of the Secwepemc people. They
20 felt the transmission line would decrease the
21 quality of these important cultural experiences,
22 on page 194 of the last Panel's report.
23 This is a serious impact that
24 neither Taseko nor the Crown addressed. If the
25 transmission line is built it will require clear 40
1 cutting forests and natural areas. It will reduce
2 privacy and the increased access for
3 non-Aboriginal people. It will reduce the quality
4 life, the areas we use for exercising our rights
5 and degrade our culture.
6 The area, the Little Dog, will
7 include a fishing camp site. This is an area we
8 take our children to learn about the culture and
9 the teaching of the traditional practices.
10 The transmission line will
11 cross here. Frederick Johnson and another member
12 told the last Panel hearing that this is not just
13 salmon fishing, but camping where his grandfather
14 once had a cabin.
15 The transmission line will
16 destroy the area and his family has been going to
17 for generations. This is at page 4911 of the
18 previous community hearing transcript.
19 The transmission line will have
20 visual impact that will interfere with the
21 spiritual nature of the area. We won't be able to
22 transfer our knowledge and share the stories of
23 the site. We won't be able to teach our children
24 why this is so important to the Esk'etemc people.
25 In addition to these important 41
1 sites, the area where the transmission line
2 crosses the Fraser River is rich in archeological
3 and burial sites. This is an important part of
4 the Esk'etemc title claim and treaty negotiations.
5 I already spoke about the
6 transmission line interfering with the land
7 available for treaty settlement purposes and
8 impacts to our title. The transmission line will
9 not only take away lands available for our treaty
10 land, but it will deprive the Esk'etemc of our
11 ability to protect these lands and our sacred
12 heritage sites for future generations.
13 The land that the transmission
14 line goes through will not only reduce the land
15 available for treaty but also interfere with the
16 Esk'etemc's ability to make our own laws to
17 protect these areas, which have heritage value to
18 us as Aboriginal people.
19 Section 8.1 of the B.C.
20 Heritage Conservation Act allows treaty First
21 Nations to make laws to conserve and protect and
22 control access to the heritage sites on treaty
23 settlement land.
24 Allowing the project to proceed
25 will not only remove the ability of lands for 42
1 treaty settlement purposes, but it will also
2 interfere with our abilities to make our own laws
3 to protect heritage values on Esk'etemc and on our
4 treaty settlement lands.
5 This is an adverse impact of
6 our title because it interferes with our ability
7 to protect our culture and heritage and our
8 ability to determine what use is to be put on our
9 lands, which is an integral aspect of title.
10 Section 31 one of the B.C.
11 Heritage Act allows a treaty First Nations under
12 it's own laws to designate a parcel of land for
13 the purposes of conserving and protecting heritage
14 sites, and this is the land title's office,
15 Esk'etemc will be deprived of this opportunity.
16 If the New Prosperity project
17 proceeds this will interfere with our ability to
18 make decisions on our land and preserve our rights
19 and heritage.
20 By now I hope the Panel is
21 understanding and starting to get a good
22 understanding of why my community is so concerned
23 about the proposed transmission line.
24 I should note that our concerns
25 are based on our experience with our hydro lines 43
1 within our territory. This was documented in the
2 last report on page 184. We express our concerns
3 about the current B.C. Hydro line which causes a
4 complete collapse in the animal population in
5 areas crossed by the corridor because of increased
6 access, hunting and poaching.
7 We've already explained our
8 concern about the declining numbers of moose and
9 mule deer, largely as a result of the hydro lines
10 and roads in our territory and private property.
11 The New Prosperity would be the
12 4th line running through our territory. It will
13 have previously said this leads to concerns about
14 cumulative impacts to our Aboriginal rights and
15 title.
16 Obviously, our ability to hunt
17 depends on the ability of the habitat of the
18 animals and they need enough continuous impact
19 land to be healthy and abundant.
20 To the extent that the habitat
21 is lost, disturbed or fragmented, so are our
22 ability to exercise our rights in our preferred
23 areas.
24 The transmission lines have
25 already broken up our habitat and adversely 44
1 impacted hunting rights. We are very concerned
2 the New Prosperity would exacerbate this problem.
3 We are concerned about the cumulative impacts of
4 all of these lines, for example, in the last Panel
5 review Taseko said the cumulative effects of the
6 Prosperity project could have a significant effect
7 on the sustainability of the moose and deer
8 population in our region. This is page 131 of the
9 last Panel report.
10 Theses impact have not been
11 mitigated in other projects so we know these
12 impacts will not be avoided if this new line
13 proceeds. To put it simply, the transmission line
14 will have it's effect of clearing habitat,
15 vegetation and areas for us to hunt, gather and
16 fast.
17 These are effects of the
18 transmission line when it goes through our hunting
19 and gathering and fasting areas.
20 Before I leave the topic of
21 impact I'm going to highlight one element of the
22 proposal before you that was not considered by the
23 last Panel.
24 We understand that there is no
25 set date for de-commissioning the transmission 45
1 line and that it's life span will be at least
2 double the life of the mine, so that could be 60
3 years or more. The last Panel didn't address
4 this, but the Esk'etemc -- the increased
5 seriousness of the impacts that the last Panel did
6 identify, our rights and title and culture will be
7 impacted for at least twice as long, if not
8 longer, than previously considered, increase the
9 seriousness of the impacts to Esk'etemc rights and
10 title.
11 As long as the transmission
12 line is in place we will not be able to exercise
13 our harvesting and cultural rights in the same
14 manner. In our preferred areas this will mean we
15 can't teach our younger generations about what
16 this area means to our culture and our way of
17 life.
18 There is very real danger our
19 traditional knowledge related to this area will be
20 compromised or lost, especially considering the
21 length of time that the transmission line will be
22 in a place interfering with our ability to pass
23 down our knowledge of our culture in these areas.
24 I urge this Panel to consider
25 these points and I urge this Panel to seriously 46
1 consider the cumulative impacts of the New
2 Prosperity transmission line, together with the
3 existing hydro lines and other developments
4 through our territory.
5 I understand from the Panel
6 report at page 131 that there will be a 30 percent
7 loss of winter habitat for mule deer and moose in
8 the region, and some of this will be a permanent
9 loss.
10 Taseko assumes the habitat loss
11 will be reversible when the transmission line is
12 de-commissioned, and on this basis I told the
13 Panel that the loss of 30 percent of the winter
14 habitat is not significant, but this loss is
15 significant to Esk'etemc and we rely and depend on
16 the winter habitat for the exercise of our
17 harvesting and cultural rights.
18 Esk'etemc is also concerned
19 that the loss will be long term and permanent
20 since there is no end-date in sight for the
21 de-commissioning of the transmission line.
22 This mine impact on the winter
23 habitat and our hunting rights is long term and
24 permanent, and so will be the loss of our culture.
25 This also means that our traditional rights will 47
1 be suspended in the area for the long term, and
2 that there is no real danger with our traditional
3 laws relating to this area will be compromised or
4 lost.
5 We will not be able to exercise
6 our harvesting and cultural rights in the same
7 manner in our preferred areas and this will
8 interfere with our teachings to our younger
9 generations about their identity as Esk'etemc and
10 what this area of territory means to our culture
11 and way of life.
12 The previous report noted our
13 territory is already effected by logging roads,
14 forest harvesting blocks, mining sites and
15 exploration activities, raising lands and other
16 hydro lines.
17 These impacts of the project to
18 the sustainability of the moose and mule deer in
19 their habitat will negatively effect our ability
20 to hunt for the survival of our community and for
21 our ceremonial needs.
22 The cumulative impacts of these
23 developments on the Esk'etemc's ability to
24 exercise our rights and title are not addressed
25 anywhere in Taseko's environmental impact 48
1 statement for the New Prosperity transmission
2 line.
3 Mitigation measures. I'd now
4 like to comment on the proposed measures. As I
5 said from the beginning of my comments, the
6 measures Taseko proposed are the old measures from
7 the last Panel that would not be enough to make up
8 for the lost of First Nations. They don't go far
9 enough for proper mitigation or accommodation of
10 the New Prosperity Project's impact to Esk'etemc's
11 right and title.
12 Taseko hasn't proposed any new
13 measures since the last Panel completed it's
14 report. So the impacts identified in the previous
15 process haven't been addressed.
16 Taseko may try to convince you
17 all mitigation proposed by the last Panel will be
18 addressed by the impact identified, but the old
19 mitigation won't address Esk'etemc's concerns
20 because they depend on Taseko working in
21 co-operation with First Nations to date.
22 We don't believe Taseko has
23 taken our concerns about impacts to our rights and
24 title seriously. So we are not confident that
25 Taseko will be able to work co-operatively with 49
1 us.
2 Since the last review Taseko
3 avoided working with the Esk'etemc to identify all
4 impacts from the previous Panel review. Instead,
5 Taseko focussed on it's EIS on arguing why the
6 impacts found significant by the previous Panel
7 are not concerned in the New Prosperity review.
8 We doubt that mitigation
9 measures like a working group will allow us to
10 address the impacts when our experiences to-date
11 show that Taseko is not willing to work with First
12 Nations on assessing impact on it's environmental
13 impact statement in the first place.
14 Our chart provides a number of
15 these examples where this will not go well and I
16 will highlight a few here. According to the EIS
17 guidelines, Taseko was supposed to assess impacts
18 to potential or established Aboriginal rights and
19 title and identify measures to prevent or mitigate
20 those potential impacts; EIS guidelines at page
21 59.
22 This did not really happen
23 during the draft EIS review. Both Esk'etemc and
24 CEAA pointed out that Taseko didn't identify
25 impact to Aboriginal rights and title or how these 50
1 impacts could be accommodated. This was in our
2 letter dated November 9th, 2012, which is CEAA No.
3 282 and in CEAA's letters of Taseko of July 6th,
4 2012, CEAA No. 113.
5 When Taseko responded to CEAA
6 No. 127, it did not specifically refer to
7 Esk'etemc rights and adverse impacts to our title
8 in it's impact assessment table, section 2.7.5;
9 nor did Taseko explain how these impacts would be
10 addressed. Instead, the Proponent downplayed the
11 impact to our rights, saying they are not
12 significant and the old mitigation measures
13 proposed would address them; see Taseko's letter
14 dated September 21st, 2012, CEAA No. 127.
15 Nothing new was proposed and
16 none of the concerns from the previous process
17 were identified or addressed. We asked to work
18 with Taseko to address gaps CEAA identified in
19 it's draft EIS.
20 We wanted to ensure traditional
21 laws and our views on the impacts were addressed
22 in the final EIS, but Taseko declined to work with
23 us; see our letter November 9th, 2012, page 4,
24 CEAA No. 282. Instead Taseko simply offered to
25 provide us with a final copy of the EIS after it 51
1 was completed.
2 Our traditional knowledge was
3 not integrated into the final EIS; see Taseko's
4 letter of August 8th, 2012 which is appendices 'E'
5 in our letter of November 12th, 2012, CEAA No.
6 282.
7 Taseko indicated it was only
8 interested in talking to us about the project
9 generally and the transmission line mitigation.
10 It was not willing to work collaboratively with us
11 to address the gaps in the EIS regarding impact to
12 our rights and title. We are, therefore, not
13 confident they will be able to work together to
14 mitigate the very impacts that Taseko was
15 un-willing to attempt to understand.
16 Taseko is willing to discuss
17 the impacts of our rights and title when Esk'etemc
18 is not confident in a working group which focuses
19 on mitigation to the very impacts that Taseko
20 denies and minimizes.
21 Taseko continues to challenge
22 and minimize our title claims, arguing that we
23 can't claim title as a band that is a member of
24 the Secwepemc Nation, even though the law suggests
25 otherwise. It has not proposed any measures to 52
1 address impact to our title above and beyond the
2 challenges we faced in working with Taseko we are
3 concerned that the mitigation measures proposed do
4 nothing more than shift the location of impact to
5 our rights and title. They don not avoid or
6 mitigate the impacts.
7 Again, the reasons for this are
8 detailed in our chart and I will highlight a few
9 specific examples here. The Panel recommended
10 that the significance of the certain adverse
11 effects would depend on where the centre of the
12 transmission line was located. It recommended
13 that Taseko collaborate with the Secwepemc to
14 determine the best location to minimize
15 disturbance.
16 This is the recommendation 19
17 on page 204 of the last Panel report. This
18 ignores our concerns about how long the
19 transmission line will disrupt our Aboriginal
20 rights, spirituality and cultural practice. It
21 fails to address the fact that the transmission
22 line will take up areas that would otherwise be
23 available to Esk'etemc to settle our outstanding
24 claims and to make laws to protect our cultural
25 heritage. 53
1 Simply moving the location of
2 the transmission line won't address the direct
3 local impacts I discussed above; these include
4 impacts to habitat of mule deer and moose in the
5 location of the line, interfering with wildlife
6 areas for hunting and harvesting and disrupting
7 areas for fasting and ceremonies.
8 I mentioned before, moving the
9 transmission line will shift the location of these
10 impacts. It will not change the fact that those
11 lands will not be available to satisfy our
12 outstanding title claims and treaty land
13 selection. Similarly, moving the line to avoid
14 sensitive locations won't address the adverse
15 effects that will deter our members from
16 exercising their rights.
17 If the transmission line is
18 moved around the sacred site, the clearing of the
19 habitat nearby will still effect the habitat and
20 wilderness quality the area for harvesting,
21 fasting and cultural activities.
22 The last Panel recommended that
23 Taseko Mines consider relocating the line outside
24 of the Esk'etemc's community forest,
25 recommendation No. 12. Even if this were done, it 54
1 wouldn't address our concerns about the impact to
2 habitat for mule deer and moose in the area or
3 impact to the sustainability of those animal's
4 populations. It won't address the fact the
5 transmission line will still impact the quality of
6 another area for harvesting, fasting and cultural
7 practices.
8 In conclusion, these are, by no
9 means, the extent of our concerns about the
10 proposed mitigation measures. We've set our views
11 on these measures as well as the impact to rights
12 and title in our impacts chart.
13 In our review of the Federal
14 Panel Report dated September 10th, 2012 and in our
15 review of the Crown's consultation report dated
16 September 13th, 2010 our previous submissions are
17 attached to our letter of March 13th, 2013
18 available to the Panel on reference No. 428.
19 I encourage the Panel to
20 carefully review these documents since they were
21 not referenced by the Proponent in it's EIA, and
22 Esk'etemc has also set out views on the
23 inaccuracies and mitigations in these submissions.
24 I hope after today you will
25 better understand the Esk'etemc perspective on the 55
1 transmission line, and on the New Prosperity
2 project generally. When you sit down to decide
3 whether the New Prosperity project has addressed
4 the environmental effects and impacts of
5 Aboriginal rights and title and current use that
6 the last Panel identified, I hope you will
7 seriously consider the information you hear today
8 presented in our submissions.
9 Finally, I want to thank the
10 Panel members and all the other individuals for
11 presenting here today, for coming to the Esk'etemc
12 of the Northern Secwepemc territory and hearing
13 from our community members.
14 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
15 very much, Chief Robbins. The process is I will
16 first turn to others and ask any questions of
17 clarification for Chief Robbins in terms of what
18 he said? Seeing none, I will turn to Taseko.
19 MS. GIZIKOFF: Sorry for the
20 delay. I have one question, Chief Robbins and
21 then Christy Smith will have a couple questions as
22 well.
23 Thank you for your wholesome
24 presentation. I appreciate hearing it. One
25 question with regards to Fish Lake: Could you 56
1 confirm whether or not Esk'etemc has an agreement
2 with the Tsilhqot'in National Government over Fish
3 Lake territory?
4 CHIEF ROBBINS: First of all,
5 we're here to talk about the transmission line. I
6 think that's what the Panel would like to hear
7 about, not about any other agreements that could
8 impact the rights and title of any First Nations.
9 So I think we're here to talk
10 about the transmission line.
11 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Well, that
12 may not be a direct issue of clarification.
13 I think the Panel would be
14 interested in a short response, if that would be
15 possible, Chief Robbins.
16 CHIEF ROBBINS: We did have an
17 agreement signed off with Xeni Gwet'in. That
18 agreement was also signed off with the Tsilhqot'in
19 National Government, and that was in support of
20 the Xeni Gwet'in title case.
21 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you.
22 Ms. Gizikoff or Ms. Smith.
23 MR. YELLAND: It's Greg Yelland
24 here. We heard that the moose and the mule deer
25 population are decreasing. I'm wondering if this 57
1 project did not go forward and there was no extra
2 impact on your territory, what would be the best
3 way of attracting mule deer and moose back to this
4 area?
5 CHIEF ROBBINS: There's been a
6 number of studies that have been done by people
7 like CEAA, also by the environmental groups in
8 Williams Lake, and what they found is the
9 re-growth of the area -- and I've approached
10 Ministry of Forests a number of times about why do
11 you have to wait 7 years to put the trees back if
12 they've clearcut them? Why wait 7 years? Why not
13 do it 2 years after the fact? They said it's
14 provincial legislation. We have to wait 7 years
15 and after 7 years if it's considered free-growing,
16 great; if not, then they can plant.
17 But there's a number of
18 different measures, but with the Esk'etemc we've
19 always -- with our community forests we only
20 harvest a certain amount and we ensure that there
21 are a number of trees standing so that the
22 wildlife would have the forests covered.
23 MR. YELLAND: Would reduced
24 hunting access also be one of those mitigation
25 methods to bring moose and mule deer back, or 58
1 would that be a secondary tool?
2 CHIEF ROBBINS: It's a lot like
3 the horses. I can really go into detail about the
4 horses, and it's the same way that -- the moose
5 kind of react the same as the horses.
6 We have so many fences in our
7 territory that we were not consulted on. Our
8 horses we put them out to range, they don't come
9 home because they end up in someone else's grazing
10 areas and we have certain individuals say get your
11 horses out. Why didn't you tell us you were
12 putting up a fence? There's a lot of lack of
13 consultation and accommodation.
14 For the moose and the mule
15 deer, once they've come into an area, they tend to
16 stay in an area. If that area is destroyed they
17 have to move on and it's clearly shown -- we've
18 had to go hunt moose now on the 2800 Road across
19 the river and when we do that what we're finding
20 is we're no longer just on the 2821 getting moose.
21 Now we're having to branch off and head toward Red
22 Mountain and Graveyard Valley and the moose
23 populations are really diminishing out there
24 because of the access.
25 You have logging roads. You 59
1 have clearcut's everywhere out there. The moose
2 have nowhere to hide and it opens it up for the
3 predators, the cougars, the wolves. So those
4 impacts need to be controlled.
5 MR. YELLAND: Thank you.
6 MS. SMITH: I guess it's a
7 follow up and I guess I had the same kind of
8 question a little bit different. Obviously my
9 brain doesn't work like an engineer's brain.
10 I wanted to know in respect to,
11 you had spoken about this area as being rare and
12 unique and being able to hunt close to home. Have
13 you seen an increase in hunting from non-First
14 Nations and is there anything that is being done
15 in regard to that?
16 CHIEF ROBBINS: Yes, we have
17 seen an increase, not just deer and moose
18 population. We also have the joe blow's that go
19 out their with their shot guns and are looking for
20 grouse. When they do that they move the moose
21 away.
22 The more hunters that you get
23 out there what we find is wildlife tends to move
24 away and a good example is we had a cultural day
25 celebration two weeks ago and we sent out four 60
1 hunters to get use meat for the celebration so we
2 could show our youth how to prepare it, dry it. I
3 showed them how to do pit cooking. Those four
4 hunters came back with nothing. And that's the
5 frustration thing. That's hugely frustrating.
6 And we're getting a number of
7 other hunters coming in, especially in the fall,
8 especially around where the transmission line is
9 where it's cutting across.
10 I was out there hunting there
11 last year and I came across a fifth wheel trailer.
12 There were four hunters and I asked what are you
13 doing here? We're doing hunting. Appreciate it
14 if you could move down the road. This is our
15 traditional hunting area. And they said we don't
16 have to. This is Crown land.
17 We're getting pressure from the
18 non-First Nations hunting under our traditional
19 area. So those pressures, I think, most likely
20 increase if the transmission line goes in because
21 they have better access. I was surprised to see a
22 fifth wheel on a top of a mountain where I had to
23 use a four-by-four to get in there.
24 So the non-First Nations
25 hunters are coming. And last weekend I saw a 61
1 small tent above where we were having our
2 ceremony, and that's right along the transmission
3 line corridor. There was a small, two-man tent
4 and a small, little car parked beside it.
5 So they're coming in somewhere.
6 I don't know if they were working for Taseko or
7 the Federal Government doing some of these
8 measures on badgers or whatever it is they're
9 doing, but nobody consulted me so I'm assuming
10 they were tourists.
11 MS. SMITH: Thank you. It
12 wasn't Taseko. In the last Panel hearings I was
13 reading a while ago that you weren't opposed to
14 development or joint ventures where values, rights
15 and interests are incorporated. And we were
16 listening to alternative mitigation and how that
17 looks, and you had mentioned a few things. Is
18 there any other things that -- I guess any
19 alternative mitigations in respect to the ways
20 that we can work together that you can foresee?
21 CHIEF ROBBINS: First of all, I
22 think there are a number of ways we can work
23 together.
24 First of all, like I stated
25 first, that's what the Panel's job is to do, is to 62
1 let you know how you're supposed to work with us.
2 The previous Panel stated this is what you have to
3 do, and nothing was done. I want to hear what
4 this Panel is going to be saying about the needs
5 and then maybe we can address them. Maybe we
6 can't. We might have to agree to disagree and go
7 to litigation. I don't know.
8 I think there is a way that
9 Esk'etemc is willing to move forward with this,
10 but it's not something that's going to happen next
11 week or next year. Because, like I stated, you're
12 not just impacting this generation, you're
13 impacting the next 3, 4, 5, 6 generations. Where
14 are they going to harvest the moose, deer? Where
15 are they going to get the berries from if you have
16 a transmission line going through our territory?
17 We already have three going through. Moose don't
18 come there anyway. When I was a kid we used to go
19 up there and get moose. They weren't there
20 anymore. So, those are some of the impacts.
21 I don't know what kind of
22 dollar amount you can throw at something like that
23 if it's a livelihood. My biggest fear -- I stay
24 up some nights because I can't sleep because of
25 projects like this and think about what can we do 63
1 to protect our lands. I turn on the TV and
2 there's -- I see these children in South Africa, a
3 cup a day can save a child, and I think to myself,
4 what happened to their livelihood? They once
5 lived on the land. They can't do that anymore.
6 I start thinking, is that the
7 way Esk'etemc's going to be in the next 7
8 generations? Are we going to be the children on
9 that screen saying 2 cups of coffee you can buy
10 this kid an education, you can give them food for
11 a month? Because it's a livelihood we're talking
12 about here. It's not -- I think that is something
13 that needs to be clear, is it's a livelihood we're
14 talking about, our right to live off the land.
15 That's it.
16 MS. SMITH: Thank you.
17 MR. SMYTH: Thank you, Chief
18 for the comprehensive report. I heard you talk
19 about the impact on lands available for treaty
20 settlement if this is it built and I heard you
21 mentions that the EIS did not address your rights
22 and title, and I'm left hanging here.
23 I'm wondering, are you able to
24 tell us, was any progress made on your land claim
25 negotiations since the previous Panel? 64
1 CHIEF ROBBINS: Well, it's
2 funny you asked that. We've been at this for 20
3 years. It seems the Province, every time we start
4 getting head ways, talking about chapters, about
5 the Heritage Act, about the laws of fishing,
6 hunting, the Province tends to change their
7 negotiator mid-stream and we end up taking it two
8 steps back getting this new negotiator filled in
9 on what we're discussing.
10 Once we start getting the
11 Province on board and start doing some hard line
12 negotiations, the Federal Government steps back
13 and brings in a new negotiator.
14 So it's a game that -- in my
15 experience for the past 20 years it's a game the
16 Federal and Provincial Government do to keep
17 pushing our rights off the table. They don't want
18 to acknowledge we have rights and title. They
19 keep changing the table.
20 I think three years ago they
21 changed some of their mandate on what they can
22 negotiate and what the dollar amount is. They
23 said they can't put that on a table.
24 So the treaty itself is --
25 we're getting prepared for stage 5, and we're 65
1 ready to sign off on an AIP, but it needs the
2 community to vote on it. Seems just like as we're
3 getting ready to have a vote the table changes,
4 either Federal or Provincial. So the table always
5 tends to change and we have to step back again and
6 fill them up again, like fill them with all of our
7 information that we have because we've done a lot
8 of chapters and I'm sure Ervin will probably be
9 able to address that question farther because he's
10 the Chief negotiator for our treaty process and
11 he's on the agenda to speak today.
12 MR. KUPFER: Just a little bit
13 further on that, when was the last time you met so
14 we have some perspective on the treaty
15 negotiations?
16 CHIEF ROBBINS: We're actually
17 meeting with them in two weeks. It's every other
18 month.
19 MR. KUPFER: It's regular?
20 CHIEF ROBBINS: Yes.
21 MR. KUPFER: The transmission
22 line --
23 CHIEF ROBBINS: Ervin, when is
24 the next treaty meeting? September.
25 MR. KUPFER: You meet every two 66
1 months?
2 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: The only
3 month we don't meet is August.
4 MR. KUPFER: Thank you. You
5 made a very, very thorough summation. I really
6 appreciate it. The transmission line corridor is
7 still within your negotiation, all the lands?
8 CHIEF ROBBINS: It hasn't even
9 been brought up by the Province. We had no idea
10 that there was a transmission line going through.
11 The Province didn't notify us. The Province
12 rubber-stamped it and then sent us information
13 through the referrals.
14 MR. KUPFER: As you've examined
15 the line and the various possibilities within the
16 larger amount of land that was indicated in the
17 EIS, that falls within your traditional territory?
18 CHIEF ROBBINS: Yes.
19 MR. KUPFER: Wherever it might
20 be placed?
21 CHIEF ROBBINS: Yes.
22 MR. KUPFER: That includes
23 crossing the Fraser River?
24 CHIEF ROBBINS: Anywhere on
25 that Fraser River. 67
1 MR. KUPFER: Thank you very
2 much for your summation.
3 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
4 very much, Chief Robbins, for your well-prepared
5 and helpful presentation. In the interests of
6 moving along I will thank you.
7 And I realized when the issue
8 of treaty came up that I forget to do something I
9 should have done.
10 RULING BY THE PANEL:
11 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Last week we
12 received a request from you regarding
13 confidentiality and an in-camera session, and we
14 have ruled on that. It is either now, or will
15 very shortly be, on the registry.
16 In the interests of
17 succinctness I will skip over much of the ruling
18 and indicate the key finding, which is: After
19 considering all of the submissions received, the
20 Panel has decided to grant Esk'etemc's request for
21 confidentiality on certain conditions that it
22 considers appropriate to the conduct of a fair
23 hearing.
24 The Esk'etemc information will
25 be received on the record but will not be made 68
1 public. On the day of the in-camera session,
2 which I understand is today, Taseko may question
3 the information presented by Esk'etemc. Taseko
4 may also submit written questions to Esk'etemc for
5 one day after the in-camera session and Taseko may
6 also file rebuttal information following the
7 receipt of the response from Esk'etemc to it's
8 questions, if necessary. That information will
9 also be received in confidence and disclosed only
10 to the Panel, the secretariat and Esk'etemc.
11 I would also ask that Taseko
12 advise the Panel, as soon as it reasonably can,
13 after it has had time to review and consider the
14 Esk'etemc presentation and responses to questions
15 - both oral and written - if it intends to file
16 rebuttal evidence.
17 So that is our ruling and at
18 this time we'll take a short break. Let's take it
19 10 minutes rather than 15 this time so we can get
20 back to the session. When we do return, the
21 Taseko presentation will be on. Thank you.
22 --- Recess taken at 11:35 a.m.
23 --- Resumed at 11:44 a.m.
24 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Could I have
25 your attention, please. I would like to reconvene 69
1 now, and I would turn things over to Taseko.
2 We've had a request for people
3 to speak a little louder or closer to the
4 microphone for today. Thank you. Mr. Yelland.
5 PRESENTATION BY TASEKO:
6 MR. YELLAND: Thank you,
7 Mr. Chairman.
8 Good morning everyone. My name
9 is Greg Yelland. I'm the chief mining engineer at
10 Taseko Mines and before I start I would like to
11 thank you Chief Fred Robbins and his community for
12 inviting and welcoming us here today.
13 We're going to go through this
14 presentation very quickly and we've got a lot of
15 information to convey so I would encourage
16 everyone to come up and meet with us at the breaks
17 and during lunch and come up and ask some
18 questions right after this in order to clarify
19 anything that they might want explained.
20 So a little bit of history
21 about what happened in 2010. On January 14th,
22 2010 the province granted us an EA certificate but
23 then in November 2010 the Federal Minister
24 declined approval of this project and allowed us
25 to submit a project proposal that includes 70
1 addressing the factors considered by the Panel.
2 These are the concerns that
3 there were significant adverse effects were found
4 in 2010 and we've listened to and have now
5 designed the mine to address these concerns. And
6 what I'll do is I'll just go through some of these
7 accommodations that we've gone forward with.
8 This is an outline of the
9 proposed project as it stands now. We have moved
10 the tailings storage facility. This area here,
11 we've moved that up the valley two-and-a-half
12 kilometres away from Fish Lake, the pit is in the
13 same position. Here's the Taseko River that runs
14 down here.
15 So what we've done by doing
16 that is we've decreased the size of the mine
17 development area. So the light green area
18 outlined here is the MDA from 2009. The darker
19 green area is the new mine development area and
20 you can see that it impacts much less land.
21 So what we've done by doing
22 that is we've preserved Fish Lake for navigation.
23 The current use of the land around Fish Lake has
24 been enhanced through a smaller mine footprint and
25 the original Aboriginal rights have also been 71
1 reduced through a smaller mine footprint.
2 Once again we've kept access to
3 the Fish Lake. There will be access so they can
4 get down for recreation purposes. This is just
5 another example of a lake where people fish and
6 camp. This is right by the Mount Polley Mine
7 waste dumps in the background.
8 This is a picture of Cuisson
9 Lake, it's taken from the waste dumps at Gibraltar
10 Mine.
11 So the conclusions around
12 Aboriginal interests around Fish Lake, and I'm
13 only talking about Fish Lake at the moment, are
14 that there's less hectares disturbed, so there's
15 reduced impact on wildlife habitat. There's
16 reduced areas where hunting is restricted.
17 We've increased access to Fish
18 Lake and the vicinity, and the environmental
19 management will be re-claiming a reclamation plan
20 to target species of interest in the area and
21 there will be fish compensation, habitat
22 compensation plans put in place.
23 When it comes to archeology, we
24 did an extensive archeological study in 2009.
25 Elders were consulted, TNG and archeologists 72
1 walked through the whole Fish Lake watershed.
2 This is the grid that they walked. Most of the
3 archeological sites were found around Fish Lake
4 and all of these sites now are being preserved.
5 So these are the sites found
6 around Fish Lake, and as you can see, they are all
7 being preserved now.
8 So, in conclusion around
9 Aboriginal interests and cultural heritage we are
10 now preserving the Fish Lake and the island. The
11 archeological resources are being preserved, the
12 -- we're going to be instituting a cultural
13 heritage protection plan and there will be
14 compensation for Little Fish Lake and the camping
15 site.
16 I just wanted to show this
17 picture as an example of an open pit mine that
18 operates in close proximity to a lake. This is
19 the Diavik Mine in Northwest Territories. While
20 the Prosperity Mine pit will not be this close it
21 gives you an idea that mining can go work in close
22 proximity to a lake.
23 This is the Island Copper Mine
24 on Vancouver Island, right next to the ocean.
25 Moving on, I would like to talk 73
1 a little bit about fish and fish habitat. The
2 light area here is the draining basin for the Fish
3 Creek watershed. Everything that we've done in
4 2013 is contained within this watershed.
5 In 2010 it was found that there
6 was either no significant adverse affects outside
7 the watershed, so anything in the green area there
8 was no adverse affects on that area. Specifically
9 there was no significant adverse affects found on
10 fish health in the Taseko River.
11 So in 2013 we have not changed
12 anything outside of the this watershed so we are
13 finding that the same conclusions should hold in
14 2013. We've designed this project to protect
15 water quality.
16 This is the open pit area.
17 These are our stockpiles. This would be where the
18 plant site would be located and this is the
19 tailings storage facility. Again, this is the
20 Taseko River running up in this direction.
21 So, firstly, potentially acid
22 generating rock from the mine would be trucked
23 from the mine to the TSF and stored under water.
24 This stops any acid from being generated.
25 Secondly, the tailings dam's designed to contain 74
1 most of the contact water in the watershed and
2 water that does seep through this will be
3 collected in ponds and pumped back into the TSF.
4 Thirdly, the mine is far enough
5 from the lake so the lake will not drain and,
6 fourthly, the Taseko River is approximately three
7 kilometres away from the pit so that when it does
8 finally fill with water the ground water reaching
9 the river will be minimal.
10 Once again, this is a picture
11 of the mine footprint showing the water courses in
12 the area. This area here is Lower Fish Creek.
13 There is no fish spawning habitat in this area.
14 This is Middle Fish Creek. This darker brown
15 area, that is the one area of the Fish Creek
16 watershed that does have spawning habitat that
17 will be affected.
18 The tributaries run in Fish
19 Creek. These are the spawning habitats available
20 and, once again, those are being preserved. We
21 plan to enhance those areas as well.
22 What is the final effect?
23 Under current conditions the lake is at capacity
24 and most of the trout in that lake are of a small
25 size, but reducing the spawning habitat area by 75
1 regulating the stream flows and by monitoring and
2 managing the fish habitat we are proposing that
3 the fish in the Fish Lake will become a much
4 stabler population and we'll get an increase in
5 the size of the average fish.
6 As well as enhancing spawning
7 habitat in the Fish Creek area, we're proposing to
8 compensate for the loss of trout and spawning
9 habitat and one of those proposals is to build
10 off-channel habitats close to the Taseko Lake.
11 This will promote the spawning of salmon.
12 This is just an example of the
13 kind of construction that we are proposing that we
14 would put down to supply to Taseko lake.
15 This is an off-channel habitat
16 enhancement on the Lower Columbia River. This is
17 another off-channel habitat built on Ashlu Creek
18 in B.C. you can see salmon spawning in the area.
19 And one of the other
20 compensation elements that we're proposing is the
21 restoration of fish passage through creeks in the
22 area.
23 We're also proposing new
24 mitigation specific to grizzly bears. We've
25 incorporated new mitigation specific to grizzly 76
1 bear, but we expect it would help other mammals as
2 well.
3 What we're proposing is to
4 minimize road mortality through education and
5 signage, also through education and awareness.
6 We would be instituting a
7 grizzly bear population monitoring program in
8 conjunction with the Ministry of Environment, and
9 we're proposing access planning; specifically
10 closing off roads into the area so that less
11 people can get in and less human-bear contact
12 would take place.
13 At this point I would like to
14 hand it over to Katherine Gizikoff who is going to
15 talk specifically about the transmission line.
16 MS. GIZIKOFF: Thank you.
17 Katherine Gizikoff here. Thanks Greg.
18 Moving on to a topic a little
19 bit closer to where we sit today, although I do
20 recognize that Esk'etemc traditional territory
21 does extend out beyond to and cover Fish Lake.
22 We did hear yesterday it was of
23 particular interest to them as well, the
24 protection of the Taseko River, Chilcotin River
25 and the Fraser River. So we thought it warranted 77
1 to discuss fish and water a little bit before we
2 started to talk about the transmission line.
3 But, as Chief Robins pointed
4 out, the transmission line corridor has not
5 changed since the previous project. New
6 Prosperity Mine was re-designed. The mine site
7 was re-designed to address the previous Panel's
8 adverse affects.
9 This is an illustration here of
10 the Fish Lake site on the left and the same
11 transmission line route ascribed in the previous
12 project relative to the Big Creek Park, Churn
13 Creek protection area, and our location over here.
14 It was the Panel's conclusion
15 last time that with mitigation the effects of the
16 project on the Secwepemc current use of land and
17 resources for traditional purposes and cultural
18 heritage would not be significant, and provided
19 that the planned mitigation to avoid construction
20 in sensitive locations would be applied in
21 co-operation with Secwepemc. The project would
22 not result in significant adverse affects or
23 established or potential Secwepemc rights.
24 We accepted the Panel's
25 conclusions and the recommendations, and that's 78
1 not to say, as Chief Robbins points out, that that
2 is still not without issues and concerns. They do
3 still remain and we have much to work on together
4 for final alignment within that corridor to ensure
5 that affects are minimized.
6 I would like to walk you
7 through some of those aspects of the transmission
8 line now. It is 125 kilometres long and what we
9 have done since 2010, the Panel report, is we have
10 been out on the ground to verify that access roads
11 do exist across the length of the corridor to
12 enable us to construct the line without any
13 further new access roads.
14 With regards to finalizing the
15 route within the 500 meters, there are numerous
16 factors to consider, and I probably only have time
17 to touch on a few.
18 Obviously, there would be the
19 engineering constraints to avoid the steepness of
20 slopes and stable soils. So avoid sensitive
21 wildlife features and habitats such as bear dens,
22 nests, trees, wetlands and riparian areas, some of
23 which of those are areas of archeological and
24 cultural values.
25 We heard that archeology had 79
1 not been completed on the line, but this was
2 started in 2010 and I'll speak to that in a
3 moment.
4 With regards to traditional use
5 and cultural values, we'll be able to minimize the
6 effect on this if we have the involvement with
7 Esk'etemc in the alignment.
8 The location on private
9 property is unavoidable on the east side of the
10 river. We go through the grass lands and a fee
11 simple(ph) land. And as well there is numerous
12 trap lines and range tenure holders over across
13 the plateau.
14 And, of course, there's access
15 considerations that Greg touched on a little bit
16 with regards to grizzly bear. I'll talk about
17 that further in a second as well.
18 The final alignment is going to
19 be chosen as a result of all these consideration
20 of all these values and there will be some
21 trade-off analysis associated because of a number
22 of considerations and we look forward to working
23 with Esk'etemc on that final alignment.
24 We heard a moment ago talk
25 about other transmission lines in the territory 80
1 and this is one that we certainly heard about,
2 this B.C. Hydro line. We heard about it at the
3 last Panel review; a substantial number of issues
4 surrounding this line with regards to impacts on
5 wildlife, hunting, recreation access and I recall
6 Beth speaking about the impact on traditional use
7 and cultural use sites because of the access
8 generated from this transmission line.
9 This is, I think -- I believe
10 the line runs through the vicinity of the
11 Enterprise Road. I believe she was speaking about
12 that as being one of the key issue areas.
13 This photo has two shots here,
14 the one on the left is actually Gibraltar Mine's
15 transmission line, one pole line that was
16 constructed about 40 years ago and I just wanted
17 to illustrate this in comparison to the previous
18 photo of the large hydro line that I showed a
19 second ago.
20 What we're proposing to
21 provided is actually more of a two pole
22 construction line, similar to this one. This is
23 just a picture off the web site. It's obviously a
24 relatively recently-constructed line because you
25 can note there is virtually no vegetation 81
1 underneath this line.
2 What we're proposing to do for
3 Prosperity is a structure similar to this. The
4 pole width apart is probably about three metres
5 wide. Depending on the forest we're going through
6 it could be about a 50 meter swath of clearing
7 that might be required but we're intending to
8 minimize the amount of clearing. There's really
9 no reason to have that level of clearing
10 underneath our line. We want to maintain at least
11 shrubby habitat of conifers where we can to break
12 up the line of site for wildlife. Certainly avoid
13 impacts on the wetlands, riparian areas and span
14 with pole placement being able to span across any
15 sensitive wetland sites or stream crossing with
16 new clearing and I think we've made numerous
17 commitments as well with regards to
18 pre-construction surveys to identify some
19 potential sensitive areas as well for the pole
20 placement to avoid species of interest and other
21 species and wetland habitat.
22 Yesterday we heard of the
23 numerous values associated with the Fraser River
24 at the ground where the transmission line is
25 proposed to do. And we certainly appreciate 82
1 hearing from the First Nations, both the
2 historical and land resources to their community
3 and cultural heritage values.
4 The Fraser River and the
5 grasslands are certainly spectacular. The last
6 time we also heard from both the(Native word) and
7 Esk'etemc about their concerns about the visual
8 impact as well, and protecting the salmon and
9 their heritage sites.
10 Our final alignment would
11 choose a location to minimize impact on visual
12 esthetics. Obviously crossing the river is going
13 to have some influence on anybody that might be
14 rafting, but coming up the other side of the
15 landscape I think there's opportunity to minimize
16 the effects visually.
17 When you drive down through the
18 Cache Creek area and off to Kamloops you would see
19 some areas where there are older lines and they
20 have literally gouged out the hillside with a
21 dozer to put the poles into the landscape.
22 It's most unfortunate that
23 they're there for a permanent or a very, very long
24 period of time and I think we can do a
25 significantly better job in a modern line now. 83
1 Both areas of the -- both sides
2 of the river are areas of grazing land. Easements
3 through fee simple lands on the east side would
4 simply be required.
5 This is a shot -- I think
6 that's the right spot. I don't know if that's
7 needle grass or not, but there are large areas of
8 wheat grass in the vicinity of the roads, the road
9 when you are driving from Esk'etemc down to Little
10 Dog.
11 These are seeding's from the
12 1970's can be very persistent. What I wanted to
13 show with this shot was that on our final
14 alignment we would be selecting routes that would
15 be of relatively stable land forms but also to
16 point -- remind myself of my commitments to
17 re-seed any disturbances with Native species but
18 not that crested wheat grass.
19 Crested wheat grass does have
20 value for weed control but our intent is to
21 minimize our disturbance on the grass line so
22 we've made commitments to not build any roads on
23 the grass lines and only access them when they are
24 either dry or my preference is when they are
25 frozen and then covered with snow. 84
1 The bunch grass communities
2 where we were standing there on the breaks
3 yesterday are very sensitive. The bunch grass
4 communities are designed for conserving water and
5 living in such harsh, droughty conditions and the
6 (unintelligible) across there is very sensitive.
7 This is just a shot of I
8 believe we were standing -- was it down in here
9 yesterday? Our transmission line route is
10 proposed to actually cross I think just to the
11 north of where we were standing.
12 Somebody referred to yesterday
13 the Gang Ranch on the other side having a parcel
14 of land. I believe they have a lease over a
15 parcel on this side -- north edge.
16 With regards to archeological,
17 we did start this in 2010. We did invite First
18 Nation leadership to discuss with us our
19 participation but, of course, it was a pretty
20 political time and I understand their need to
21 decline but we did make every effort to involve
22 local people, local First Nations from the
23 communities here to participate as technicians in
24 the program.
25 What we were attempting to 85
1 start off with was to at least look at that Fraser
2 River and the Big Creek crossings to ensure that
3 it was feasible to avoid identified archeological
4 sites.
5 This project is not complete.
6 We do not have a report finished, nor are all the
7 field surveys completed for the whole plateau.
8 But the work we did in 2010 identified where our
9 whole placement sites could be located to avoid
10 archeological areas of interest.
11 This is just another shot of
12 that transmission line route on a Google Earth
13 image. This is west over here looking to the east
14 crossing the river, I guess we were standing down
15 in here somewhere yesterday.
16 My point of putting this on the
17 screen today was to illustrate the southern
18 boundary of the Esk'etemc community forest.
19 I believe Gord Chipman's on the
20 speakers list for later on today and he might have
21 a better map of the whole community forest area.
22 But this is the area that we cross the community
23 forest. I believe the Panel's recommendation last
24 time was for Taseko to consider moving that
25 transmission line to the south. To avoid the 86
1 community forest, following the Panel's report we
2 did meet with Gord Chipman to discuss some options
3 of a routing to the south or even going through
4 parts of the lower part of the community forest,
5 whether it's existing roads or some logging to try
6 to minimize effects.
7 Going to the south had its
8 other issues with regards to weeds and ATV's
9 coming in off the grass lands.
10 We, at this current point in
11 time, we've left it in this route and that's
12 something to be further discussed with Esk'etemc's
13 leadership.
14 With regards to traditional
15 foods, country foods and harvesting-gathering,
16 Chief Robbins did raise this as being an issue of
17 concern.
18 As I mentioned earlier, with
19 regards to clearing, we want to avoid impacts
20 where those sites currently are not impacted by
21 mountain pine beetle or logging. With Esk'etemc's
22 involvement we'd be potentially able to identify
23 some of these high priority areas to minimize
24 disturbance. When we look across the plateau, I
25 guess for the quality of this picture when we look 87
1 across the plateau there is extensive clearing
2 that's already been done and there are some areas
3 that are starting to re-grow as well that,
4 perhaps, were harvested 5 to 15 years ago.
5 There's certainly still some
6 areas impacted by mountain pine beetle and not
7 logged. We've made commitments to utilize the
8 cleared areas as much as possible to minimize
9 effect on country foods and wildlife habitat and
10 we would certainly appreciate Esk'etemc's
11 involvement into making sure where we do go
12 through cleared areas we can minimize that effect
13 further.
14 One thing that Greg touched on
15 was fish habitat compensation but we haven't
16 touched much about wildlife habitat. Something
17 new Esk'etemc might not be aware of is with
18 regards to the habitat compensation proposed for
19 the Prosperity Mine, last time we only referred to
20 completing a reference document to start the
21 process but this time we have gone further to
22 start to identify areas of interest to a variety
23 of community members, local groups, that might be
24 interested in preserving, restoring or enhancing
25 perhaps wetlands, particularly for moose in the 88
1 vicinity of the mine site. But also there's
2 certainly a lot of moose habitat that's been
3 identified throughout the region where it's been
4 impacted by cattle and there may be other projects
5 in the vicinity of Esk'etemc and even Williams
6 Lake that are of interest.
7 Somebody had mentioned the
8 other day with regards to spruce root, and I was
9 thinking it doesn't have to be just wetlands. We
10 could look at some activities related to
11 infrastructure that are areas that are impacted by
12 cattle, perhaps we could employ youth program to
13 protect something of cultural value.
14 And somebody mentioned also
15 when we were out in, I believe it was Anaham and
16 moose and all the clearcut's that are re-growing
17 but they're re-growing very thickly and we could
18 potential have a youth program doing some thinning
19 to enhance some forest productivity as well.
20 There's a diversity of
21 commitments that were carried over from the
22 previous environmental impact statement and the
23 Panel review that are carried forward to this
24 project as well, and that includes doing
25 pre-construction surveys to avoid impacts and the 89
1 final alignment, completing the archeological
2 impact assessment, conducting the asset management
3 plan that Greg alluded to.
4 I think there is a huge
5 opportunity to work with the local people to
6 de-commission numerous roads and trails that are
7 associated with the mountain pine beetle and
8 logging in the vicinity of our transmission line.
9 Through getting consensus with
10 a variety of groups, Taseko moving forward with
11 permitting or agreements with forest licensees, I
12 think this project could be used as a bit of a
13 catalyst or a pilot to resolve numerous issues
14 that are associated with the logging, whether it's
15 grizzly bear, moose or even ATV impacts on country
16 food areas.
17 All of the mitigation measures
18 that we've committed to get incorporated into
19 environmental management plans for permitting
20 including our invasive management plan. I know
21 that's of particular concern as well to Esk'etemc
22 with regards to the transmission line and we've
23 committed to working within windows for various
24 species for construction to minimize effects on
25 breeding. 90
1 This is just a pretty shot from
2 yesterday, but the point I was trying to remind
3 myself here is that it will be most effective and
4 least impact if we have a working group working
5 together to understand and resolve some of the
6 issues.
7 Taseko has been gaining a
8 significant amount of experience with regards to
9 working groups, and this is just a shot of our
10 elders on Tsay Kay Dene on our (Native being
11 spoken) project up past north McKenzie doing a
12 site visit.
13 Going forward, the
14 environmental assessment process is not the only
15 regulatory process. We have a lot of work to do,
16 a lot of opportunities for input and consultation,
17 both provincially and federally, for the mine site
18 and the transmission line.
19 MS. SMITH: So it's my turn.
20 Again, I just wanted to introduce myself. My name
21 is Christy Smith and I'm from the Ko'mox First
22 Nation and was hired approximately a year ago by
23 Taseko to assist them in community and Aboriginal
24 affairs.
25 One of the key things that I 91
1 wanted to highlight with my next few slides is
2 that we have guiding principals within the company
3 and evidence of the guiding principles being put
4 into action.
5 So there is a health and safety
6 policy, obviously, to maintain safe and healthy
7 working conditions. Environmentally we ensure we
8 continue to improve stewardship of the natural
9 environment. We have an Aboriginal people's
10 policy deliver on the principles set out in our
11 Aboriginal policy, and within our community we've
12 got a commitment to the Cariboo, a commitment to
13 where we work and we, as most of our employees do,
14 700 and something, call the Cariboo their home.
15 So it's important to reflect the values that are
16 important to our employees as well as to our
17 residents.
18 So we are committed to ongoing
19 consultation and engagement. We'll seek to build
20 the working relationships, identify opportunities
21 for much benefit, identify concerns and mitigate
22 and accommodate.
23 I think the keyword that we
24 need to look at here is "collaboration". I
25 brought it up I think a couple, maybe a couple 92
1 weeks ago as well and the fact that, you know, the
2 success of providing meaningful opportunities and
3 in these opportunities with employment as well as
4 opportunities to be involved and see some
5 mitigation in respect to the transmission line, et
6 cetera, really relies on the fact that there is a
7 need for collaboration.
8 So in respect to my role within
9 the company. My role is to look at opportunities
10 and meaningful opportunities and support
11 communities to become part of that project.
12 Some of the opportunities with
13 the transmission line are just outlined below.
14 There is harvesting vegetation management,
15 monitoring access management and overall
16 construction.
17 There's additional
18 opportunities that are available. Obviously the
19 B.C. government revenue sharing opportunity,
20 training employment, BCAMTA, TRU and KTec provide
21 wrath of training as well as we participate and
22 support those programs to ensure that there's
23 training available for communities.
24 Contracting and capacity
25 building. There's an opportunity to be close to 93
1 home and have these opportunities close to home.
2 In reflection to my own personal story, that is
3 something that I'm not able to go home yet to
4 actually do, is work within my territory.
5 So that is an option within
6 this project that is -- it is an opportunity.
7 Community enhancements and a long term fund base.
8 This is a list of the full-time
9 employment opportunities within New Prosperity,
10 and this is just within the mine site. So,
11 obviously, as I mentioned, there is alternatives
12 with respect to the ongoing maintenance, et
13 cetera, of the transmission line that can add to
14 additional employment, as well as additional
15 employment in general to help service the site.
16 I want to be clear that we are
17 working hard to minimize barriers to employment.
18 We have just recently put in a policy at Gibraltar
19 that takes away the need to have the grade 12
20 education and we actually support the TAOS
21 assessment for essential skills to get in.
22 On-site we get a wrath of resumes, First Nation
23 and non-First Nations, that come in; very entry
24 level and we train on-site and we've got people
25 that want to become blasters or mill wright's and 94
1 we support those individuals to continue their
2 education once employed.
3 So, again, there's contracting
4 opportunities, working experience in regards to
5 going to school and coming back for co-op terms,
6 opportunities to job shadow in the high school
7 system. We're very involved in respect to
8 building awareness around the opportunities within
9 the mining industry.
10 This is just a shot of the
11 Xat'sull reclamation crew out on Gibraltar. I
12 think I mentioned yesterday that we all provide an
13 elements of culture into a place of business and
14 it's important that the First Nation's culture as
15 well as non-First Nation culture is applied when
16 we are making decisions such as reclamation.
17 This is a shot of Gibraltar
18 again and just the fact we're committed to working
19 groups and we've had a great success and start to
20 working groups within the area and as well as up
21 north and we'll be a providing a table for
22 collaborating and open communication and dialogue
23 and ensuring that there is meaningful
24 opportunities, engagement and things come to
25 fruition. 95
1 This is just some of the local
2 community societies that's we support. We not
3 only support these associations, obviously, but we
4 support the region.
5 In conclusion, open pit mining
6 is a modern industry with a strong track record of
7 success in B.C. New Prosperity is a low-risk,
8 high-reward proposal in the best interests of the
9 region, the province and the country.
10 Taseko is responsive and a
11 responsible company, committed to providing the
12 right resources and highly-experienced personnel
13 in order to accomplish the project as planned.
14 And in respect to what was
15 asked in the previous Panel, Taseko's done what
16 they were asked to do. I guess I draw on that
17 with conclusions and open it up for questioning.
18 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you,
19 Ms. Smith. Miss Gizikoff, and Mr. Yelland.
20 I'm not following my own
21 instructions. Any questions for Taseko? Chief
22 Robbins.
23 MS. CHELSEA: Good morning. My
24 name is Patricia Chelsea. I'm a councillor for
25 the Esk'etemc. As I said, I also do employment 96
1 services. I also work the contract for KTec in
2 our community. I wanted to ask, you mentioned
3 BCAMTA, KTec. How many federal dollars go into
4 that program and what does Taseko put into it?
5 MS. SMITH: So in respect to
6 KTec and BCAMTA, I put KTec up there because we've
7 asked them to support Taseko with the cultural
8 awareness training. I'm not sure federal dollars
9 go into KTec but I do know that we are in
10 discussion for ongoing support to Gibraltar.
11 MS. CHELSEA: My next -- it's
12 more of a comment. Last year ANTSI(ph) is the
13 Aboriginal affairs, it used to give the band what
14 we called the TESI(ph) dollars. Since then all
15 those dollars have been re-directed to the
16 ministry -- education. And most of our people who
17 need to get into that program have to be
18 unemployed for three years. A lot of our people
19 get as much part-time jobs as they can. There is
20 no way that they haven't been unemployed for three
21 years.
22 So I guess I'm just wondering
23 where is the benefit really for the Esk'etemc in
24 any program you are offering us here?
25 MS. SMITH: In respect to 97
1 training?
2 MS. CHELSEA: Yes.
3 MS. SMITH: In respect to
4 training I just highlighted just a few entities
5 that we've been working alongside of, but in
6 respect to training in the communities itself, I'm
7 open to discussions on areas of need within a
8 community and I'll just give you an example.
9 Up north in our Alley project
10 we've sat down and we've had discussions in
11 regards to training. We've helped fund an
12 on-reserve training facility but we've
13 acknowledged that the training needs to begin with
14 self-esteem and healing.
15 So we've actually supported the
16 Tsay Kay Dene in regards to going out for the
17 healing gatherings, and then once we see -- and
18 together once the community is ready then we'll
19 work on essential skills and we'll build from
20 there. Every community is unique.
21 Within my department my role is
22 to determine where the level of training is needed
23 in the community and how individuals want to get
24 involved, whether it be individually or possibly
25 some support within a business entity or within a 98
1 group of individuals.
2 MS. CHELSEA: You also went
3 through access management on your power line.
4 That's going to need access almost, what,
5 annually? And how much access does that give to
6 the community surrounding us that are non-First
7 Nations? You're putting in roads so that can you
8 go in, do your fence management; it is going to
9 effect all the access to the lands?
10 MS. GIZIKOFF: Thank you for
11 that question. I'll answer that one. We have
12 been able to confirm that we will be able to
13 construct the line using the existing management
14 or access that is there, and the maintenance of
15 that line can be done through that existing access
16 as well.
17 What I envisage for access
18 management planning though is -- we've got a GIS
19 system, I think Esk'etemc has one as well,
20 correct, but we've gone through and got all the
21 licensed or tenured roads on the map; the roads
22 and trails, the numbers are just huge, and the
23 process of doing access management planning is
24 going to be very challenging but it's identifying
25 to which roads do we need to access the line for 99
1 constructing and maintaining it, as you pointed
2 out. But then sitting down with the Esk'etemc,
3 well what's important for you to have open to
4 access your areas?
5 Perhaps what areas do you want
6 to have access to that you don't want other people
7 to have access to. What roads do you think need
8 to be closed because you noticed degradation of a
9 site, perhaps, that's important to you that ATV's
10 are running through.
11 We have to sit down with forest
12 licensees, they have obligations to get to
13 clearcut's. There's some landowners too out at
14 Big Creek Ranch. It could very, very challenging.
15 Might be some roads and trails that, in its
16 entirety, we can't all agree on, but I'm certain
17 there a number of roads out there that we can with
18 come to some consensus on it and de-commission
19 those.
20 The intent of doing it is to
21 not block access for Esk'etemc. The intent is to
22 try to do some access de-commissioning so we can
23 protect some areas that are of interest to
24 Esk'etemc, reduce non-Aboriginal hunting that is
25 forcing Esk'etemc to go further and further to 100
1 hunt, perhaps reduce the amount of hunting
2 pressure on the moose and certainly on the other
3 end of the transmission line is trying to
4 re-establish some of that core habitat for the
5 grizzly bears too that are being significantly
6 impacted.
7 MS. CHELSEA: Thank you.
8 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Chief
9 Robbins.
10 CHIEF ROBBINS: Two questions.
11 First question I'll address to the gentleman.
12 You briefly touched on Fish
13 Lake and the quantity of fish versus the quality
14 of fish, and then showed a picture of the
15 Gibraltar mine and other mining areas where they
16 have fish.
17 I've spoken to a few people
18 that live around those areas, and they actually
19 fish those fish for sport, and sport alone. They
20 don't eat them. They said they don't want to try
21 to eat them and they suggest nobody eat them.
22 So, again, when it comes to
23 your quality of fish versus your quantity of fish,
24 I think that's something that -- I would like to
25 find out what Department of Fisheries and Oceans 101
1 say about that, although I know their mandate has
2 been changed by the Federal government so they
3 can't come and sit at this hearing and give a huge
4 statement on that. But I'm kind of curious what
5 they would say about that.
6 I'll just go right into my
7 second question. My second question is --
8 addressed to the transmission line, and I had a
9 lengthy speech this morning talking about the
10 cultural values of the land.
11 Now, I don't know if any of you
12 go to church in any way, but I'm kind of curious.
13 What would it be like if I were to come to your
14 church and say, I'm sorry, I'm putting a
15 transmission line right through here, and that's
16 it? Because that's actually what's going on here.
17 Because you talked about the impacts to the land
18 and some of the mitigation measures that could be
19 addressed.
20 But the cultural values of a
21 person going up there and fasting in an alter, and
22 when they do that they don't pick the low lying
23 areas. They go up in the mountains and they can
24 see that transmission line, and it's not something
25 that they want to see when they are in that state 102
1 of prayer.
2 So, sorry about my -- putting
3 the transmission line through a church, but that's
4 exactly what's going on down there.
5 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Mr. Yelland,
6 I'm sure you cannot speak for Fisheries And Oceans
7 but you might want to say something about that
8 question then I'll leave it up to you folks.
9 MR. YELLAND: In regards to the
10 first question. I cannot comment on whether
11 people eat fish from those recreational areas or
12 not.
13 What I can say is that we will
14 have a fish health monitoring plan put in place at
15 Fish Lake where we will not only be monitoring the
16 size, the weight, the fish health. We'll be
17 taking samples of fish, sending them off to labs
18 to understand any metal uptake in those fish and
19 determining whether they are healthy enough and
20 fit for human consumption.
21 If we see any kind of rise in
22 metal uptake in fish in Fish Lake, we know that
23 we've got mitigation measures that we can put in
24 place to curb that and reverse the trend. So
25 we're confident that not only will we be able to 103
1 maintain healthy fish population in the lake, but
2 we'll be able to say with confidence that the
3 people will be able to eat those fish.
4 It's very hard for me to
5 comment on the second question. Maybe Katherine
6 would like to do that?
7 MS. GIZIKOFF: Thank you. I'll
8 just go back to the first one a little bit.
9 I think you referred to
10 Gibraltar, Chief Robbins, and for Gibraltar we
11 have done fish assessments involving local people
12 in those assessments, as well sampling the fish,
13 both in our tailings pond, seepage pond and
14 surrounding lakes, as well as we do research in
15 the Fraser River, which DFO is aware of and
16 support the program on sturgeon too.
17 So we do a rather fulsome
18 research program. One of our biggest challenges
19 is getting that message and some of that
20 information out to local people so that they have
21 that level of comfort, as you're referring to as
22 well.
23 With regards to your second
24 question on the transmission line, and it going
25 through a church or an Esk'etemc's church. I 104
1 regret that, that that is the effect.
2 I do not have that same
3 spiritual attachment to this land, as I'm certain
4 this community does. But I do have an
5 environmental attachment to the land based on my
6 background and my believes, and I do understand
7 what you are saying that, if I'm up on a high land
8 and looking down, as I do sometimes when I'm out
9 there looking at those clear cuts and that plateau
10 and all the roads, it is disturbing.
11 So it's my passion in that
12 environmental area which drives me to minimize the
13 disturbance, and I hope that would result also in
14 a parallel effect on minimizing impact on cultural
15 heritage. But I do -- I will recognize your
16 comment on that.
17 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Sir, go
18 head.
19 MR. HARRY: Patrick Harry. I
20 just wanted to make a comment before my question.
21 I think it's fitting that
22 Taseko sits with its back to the people once again
23 in these Panel hearings, as in the first round.
24 There was comments made in the communities, and I
25 think they were forwarded to the Panel about the 105
1 communities feeling it was disrespectful of Taseko
2 to sit with their backs to the people through the
3 whole hearings.
4 For my question: There was
5 slide about -- showing that the work was -- there
6 was an archeological impact assessment started and
7 there was also a slide showing that Taseko has a
8 policy around aboriginal -- working with
9 aboriginals, and I would like to know more about
10 what process took place during that -- during that
11 archeological impact assessment and how Taseko
12 consulted the communities and what type of
13 administrative support from the communities were
14 involved in their work that was going on,
15 particularly in Secwepemc, (Native word) and
16 Esk'etemc territory.
17 Did they follow policy of -- we
18 want to the know more about the policy, or was it
19 followed and is this how Taseko intends to
20 continue business as far as how it relates to the
21 communities in our area?
22 MS. GIZIKOFF: It's Katherine
23 Gizikoff here.
24 Patrick, as I recall back, I
25 met with you and our archeologist, that must have 106
1 been in 2009. Perhaps we met twice. But you're
2 contacted by both Taseko and our consultant about
3 the archeological assessment and the permit.
4 I know your interest in
5 archeology. You've spoken very passionately about
6 it. I wanted to make sure that Canoe and
7 Esk'etemc were both involved in the program,
8 that's the ideal situation of course.
9 But you will recall as well is
10 that I believe chief-in-council, perhaps with
11 their lawyers, had a meeting and it was relayed
12 back to us -- I can look for it in the
13 consultation records if you like -- that under
14 advisement at that time Canoe decided against
15 participating in the archeological study.
16 Now, having said that, we do
17 have a commitment to engage and to share
18 information and so through the local people that
19 we hired on the -- both the pre-construction
20 wildlife surveys for ness (ph) and the ground
21 truthing and archeology, we made every effort to
22 engage and employ First Nations that were members
23 in these two communities.
24 But politically at that time,
25 and I recognize that it was Canoe's decision to 107
1 not participate, we still had to move forward.
2 Again, it's not finished moving forward. Our door
3 is always open and we would very much enjoy Canoe
4 and Esk'etemc's participation in those studies.
5 MR. YELLAND: Can I just make a
6 comment also?
7 We also find it quite difficult
8 to have our backs to the audience. We would
9 rather be addressing the audience face-to-face and
10 we apologize for that, but that -- it was not our
11 decision at all.
12 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: For
13 certainty, that's the Panel responsibility.
14 Taseko sits on ever there facing the us, half-way
15 to you as well. Presenters sit here. We made an
16 error there, but that for certainty is not
17 Taseko's responsibility.
18 MR. HARRY: So to clarify, the
19 archeology impact work was done without the
20 support of the bands?
21 MS. GIZIKOFF: The impact
22 assessment was started without the band's
23 participation in it. That's correct.
24 MR. HARRY: Thank you.
25 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Go ahead. 108
1 MR. HARRY: Why do I have a
2 feeling that the cards are stacked against us?
3 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Could you
4 produce yourself, sir, for record.
5 MR. ARCHIE: David Archie. I'm
6 not the chief, though. I'm a historian.
7 The question I would like to
8 ask is that: Before you even start, because I
9 figure here as I stand before you, we are in a
10 losing cause here. It's brains versus heart.
11 Like the lady in pink here, the environmental
12 scientist, scientists usually operate from the
13 brain. Spiritual people operate from the heart,
14 like Fred mentioned.
15 So for me, even before you
16 start, somebody here -- I think Patricia --
17 mentioned about employment of our people --
18 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Mr. Archie,
19 could you speak more directly into the microphone?
20 Thank you.
21 MR. ARCHIE: So what I would
22 like to ask is: Before you even start, can you
23 put up some of your front money to alleviate the
24 conditions we have on the reserves here?
25 Like I told you yesterday, I 109
1 come from Canoe Creek, IR number 1. It's 90 acres
2 of useless land, mostly shale and rock, and chance
3 of employment, that's why I moved away.
4 So just like in the hockey
5 game, when you sign a contract you usually give a
6 bonus at the beginning. If you can come up with
7 some money, roughly 4 or 5 million to help my
8 people, the Esk'etemc (Native being spoken), and
9 then we -- maybe can work with you, otherwise as I
10 stand here before you, I'm against this project,
11 mainly because every time I talk to you people
12 whether it's on the street or in forum you talk
13 about money, you talk about money, you talk about
14 jobs.
15 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Mr. Archie,
16 we have a lot of speakers. Could you get to the
17 question, if you have a question?
18 MR. ARCHIE: Yes. Is it
19 possible for you to put up front money even before
20 you begin to alleviate the conditions of my
21 people?
22 MS. SMITH: I'll just quickly
23 comment in respect to passion. I think from my
24 heart, I speak from my heart and I've never worked
25 with a more sincere group of people that believe 110
1 in the environment, and especially this woman next
2 to me.
3 I think that we all have
4 passion for things and that we all believe in the
5 people. My passion is in that exact thing, what
6 happens to our First Nation people.
7 Are we all going to have to go
8 away and work? Are we all going to not be able to
9 come home?
10 So my passion, and as much as
11 this very emotional for me, is with making sure
12 those are meaningful within industry. And so I
13 comment on that piece.
14 In respect to the upfront
15 monies. There is a lot of other pieces that come
16 to play, such as permitting and things like that.
17 But I can tell you that as long as I know that the
18 people I work with are in roles they are in, that
19 the opportunities for meaningful engagement and
20 opportunities will exist.
21 MS. GIZIKOFF: I would like to
22 add a little bit, Christy. With regards to
23 putting up money.
24 The industry has to be
25 extremely careful to -- when it's in a regulatory 111
1 process -- to not be seen as buying our approval.
2 But we do have a commitment to all the communities
3 that we're working with that should this project
4 proceed to extend whatever opportunity, (muffled)
5 wise or whatever, that we can be of beneficial
6 benefit to the community, and we're open to
7 engaging in agreements with leadership which would
8 have capacity funding for that community as well.
9 With regards to revenue
10 sharing, I'll leave that for Chief Robbins,
11 perhaps to raise, if he so desired later on.
12 But it's not as clear for me
13 what the province's policy is for revenue sharing
14 for those communities whose territory does or does
15 not overlap the ore body. There may be an
16 opportunity for revenue sharing of the mineral tax
17 for those communities, the transmission line goes
18 through the territory.
19 MR. ARCHIE: Thank you.
20 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: I believe we
21 have another who wishes to speak, and so I will
22 let him speak next.
23 FRANCIS JOHNSON: My name is
24 Francis Johnson Senior, I have a question. I was
25 employed at Xeni Gwet'in for six months, couple 112
1 years ago.
2 I have a question regarding --
3 never been discussed fully and sometimes minimized
4 at adverse effects of this issue. It's regarding
5 the fishery issue.
6 As I was in Xeni Gwet'in I
7 heard and I watched this, that drilling sites to
8 water sites were discontinued by the band and --
9 Marilyn Baptiste asked for my assistance out there
10 while this was going on.
11 And one of the really, really
12 big effects that not really, really discussed,
13 really big effects of the salmon, the issue. The
14 salmon that's been studies done regarding the
15 fish, the water going into Taseko and will be
16 going into the Chilcotin River and will come down
17 our river here, and it's regarding that there's a
18 high, high rate of pollution, levels high levels
19 of mercury and will really have adverse effects on
20 our mercury and our fishing, which will really
21 affect and cause lot of cancer, lot of other
22 illnesses.
23 And my question is regarding --
24 maybe somebody from Taseko can answer honestly.
25 What studies you did regarding -- you said there's 113
1 not very much effects regarding the fish, but
2 there is underwater creeks that go under Fish Lake
3 and all the silt will go down and will affect
4 their salmon and how are you going to -- what are
5 you going to do to elevate or even let that not to
6 happen?
7 MR. YELLAND: That is a very
8 big question. It's a good question.
9 We have done water quality
10 modelling taken into account the water that will
11 be collected in the tailings storage facility and
12 the amount of seepage that will be coming from
13 that facility.
14 We've hired experts in the
15 field to model that and try to determine the
16 levels of metals that will be in that ground
17 water. What they had determined is that the
18 Taseko River will not be affected by ground water.
19 However, if that modelling proves not to be
20 correct, we will have monitoring facilities in
21 place throughout the mine site.
22 I didn't go into that in detail
23 in this presentation. We didn't really have
24 enough time, but because of that monitoring we'll
25 be able to tell whether metal concentrations are 114
1 rising in the water around the mine site.
2 If that is the case, then we
3 can put in wells to stop that water from
4 progressing and we can -- in the long run if we
5 really need to, we can have (muffled) include
6 water treatment as well.
7 I hope that helps.
8 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: I will
9 remind speakers -- sorry, questioners, that we
10 have 35 more speakers to go through today, and so
11 if you can be short and to the point, we would
12 appreciate that.
13 MS. SPENCER: Hi. My name is
14 Patricia Spencer from the Friends of Fish Lake and
15 I hope these questions should be really brief.
16 First, I want to clarify the
17 width of the transmission line. I thought I heard
18 500 meters, then I heard 50 meters. This should
19 be an easy one.
20 MS. GIZIKOFF: It is easy. For
21 the baseline studies, the width was three
22 kilometres wide, the area of study, the regional
23 study area.
24 The 500 meters is the corridor
25 that BC environmental assessment certificate 115
1 approved. That we would do our alignment
2 somewhere within that 500 meters.
3 The 50 meters is sort of an
4 average of the clearing that when we go through a
5 forested area, the paint on the tree height -- the
6 width needed to be cleared would be somewhere
7 between 30 and 80 meters. Obviously on the
8 grassland you wouldn't be clearing any.
9 The actual structures
10 themselves, the poles would be about three to five
11 meters wide. I think they are about three meters
12 wide, maybe five meters if you include the top
13 cross bar. And generally the poles are 200 to 250
14 meters as part, depending on the terrain.
15 MS. SPENCER: Thank you.
16 Another question of clarification regarding the
17 de-commissioning.
18 When will the transmission line
19 be de-commissioned, and who will pay for that? So
20 the other question along with that, who will pay
21 for the construction of the transmission line?
22 Assume I think I've been to Taseko will. Who will
23 pay for the de-commissioning and when will that
24 happen?
25 MR. YELLAND: We do not have an 116
1 exact date for when that line would be
2 de-commissioned. It would depend on whether we
3 have to keep some power on-site. The
4 de-commissioning would be paid for by Taseko.
5 MS. SPENCER: All right.
6 Further that, there has been some discussion about
7 the power line might be de-commissioned around
8 closure, but there might still be power needs
9 after closure; is that correct?
10 MS. GIZIKOFF: I believe that
11 was the subject of some questioning at the general
12 hearing session, it's on the record. JP LaPlante
13 was questioning Mr. Scott Jones about the need for
14 running of pumps, and those answers are on the
15 record.
16 There are just unknowns at this
17 time to be able to determine an exact date and our
18 needs.
19 MS. SPENCER: One last quick
20 question. I've heard talk of a switching station.
21 Is there going to be a switching station along the
22 transmission line?
23 MR. YELLAND: No, there will
24 not be a switching station put in place.
25 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you, 117
1 Ms. Spencer. Chief Archie? David Archie.
2 CHIEF ARCHIE: I'm here to
3 support our family here. My mother is from this
4 community. My grandfather is from this community,
5 lots of I'm here to glad to be here to support
6 you.
7 I'll have more questions
8 tomorrow when you come to our community, but one
9 of the questions that I have are in regards to the
10 reclamation plans. Do you bury garbage in those
11 plans with regards to any of your mining
12 operations but specifically for the proposed mine
13 but also for Gibraltar?
14 MS. GIZIKOFF: For New
15 Prosperity we've a -- because the project is a
16 number of years old now, we have looked at a
17 variety of options, having a licenced landfill
18 on-site, which is not preferred from any point of
19 view.
20 Having an incinerator on-site
21 which raised some concerns with regard to air
22 quality, and the current proposal is to truck
23 garbage to the existing licenced landfill that is
24 off site.
25 The existing licenced landfill 118
1 off site is at Gibraltar mine. It's the CRD
2 landfill. It's not Gibraltar's landfill but CRD's
3 landfill that was opened up in about four -- 2006
4 or '4. Somewhere in there. That's the current
5 proposal.
6 MR. ARCHIE: So that then is
7 kind of a joint plan between the CRD and Gibraltar
8 to bury the garbage there?
9 MS. GIZIKOFF: It's not so much
10 as a plan as it's just a destination. I would
11 assume there would be tipping fee associated with
12 that. I'm not sure what these communities
13 actually have for licenced landfills, but in the
14 Williams Lake area, the regional garbage there
15 goes to that operation.
16 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you,
17 Chief Archie. We'll take one more question.
18 MR. HART: Ramsay Hart from
19 MiningWatch Canada.
20 Patricia beat me to the
21 question about the de-commissioning of the hydro
22 line. I think it's important for people in the
23 room to get a clear answer because I don't know
24 many people in the room would find transcripts on
25 the CEAA registry. 119
1 Can you clarify the potential
2 closure date or de-commissioning date for the
3 hydro corridor, if power is needed on-site?
4 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Very
5 briefly, please.
6 MS. GIZIKOFF: Sorry if I
7 wasn't clear.
8 I not only eluded to the other
9 transcripts, but it currently is unknown because
10 of our power needs at this time are unknown.
11 MR. HART: So it could be
12 indefinite forever?
13 MS. GIZIKOFF: That's not the
14 desired routes. No.
15 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you,
16 Mr. Hart.
17 At this point I'll thank you
18 for your presentation. We really appreciate
19 you're focusing on the transmission line which is
20 clearly important for this community, and we'll
21 break for lunch now. We'll have a half hour break
22 and at 1:30 we'll reconvene.
23 --- Recessed at 12:57 p.m.
24 --- Upon resuming at 1:20 p.m.
25 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Good 120
1 afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
2 Chief Robbins has suggested
3 that we can actually start the session while
4 several of us are still eating, and in the
5 interest of hearing from as many people from the
6 community as possible, that's exactly what I am
7 now doing.
8 It's my understanding that the
9 next speaker, Irvine Johnson, is making a
10 presentation that would involve some
11 confidentiality. However, as I understand it, the
12 confidentiality will be in material provided to
13 the Panel and to Taseko and that others do not
14 need to leave the room.
15 If I'm wrong, Mr. Johnson, you
16 could so advise me. But if that's the case, then
17 we'll just proceed with that.
18 Is Mr. Johnson available now?
19 He's not. So maybe because we did start early and
20 because I'm sure Mr. Johnson -- would you like to
21 proceed with this? Okay, in that case, go right
22 ahead.
23 PRESENTATION BY COUNCILLOR JOHNSON
24 MR. JOHNSON: (Native being
25 spoken). We are Taseko people, you'll never hear 121
1 speaking -- I was born here and I was raised here,
2 here in Alkali Lake. My grandmother, my
3 grandfather brought me up here.
4 My grandfather's name was
5 (Native being spoken). Mother was (Native being
6 spoken). My grandmother's current father is
7 (Native being spoken). He's the one that gave me
8 my name. Mother and father are (Native being
9 spoken). My current father and my current mother
10 was born across the river. He was the chief here.
11 David Johnson was the chief here. He was the
12 second last hereditary chief in the community,
13 from 1942 to 1952.
14 (Unintelligible) show the
15 people I grow up with -- brought up the way they
16 were brought up. They gave me lot -- I -- brought
17 me to residential school and that's where I
18 learned English. They lots to say here. Story.
19 Don't go to sleep if you full from the lunch.
20 I responsibly spoke Shushwap
21 just to know pressure I've speaking English. Now
22 so -- (unintelligible).
23 The reason I mentioned by
24 grandfather and grandmother and who their parents
25 were, is to let you know the lineage that I come 122
1 from here. They were taught the Secwepemc. I was
2 raised in an era where we still have hereditary
3 chiefs were our leaders. And all of their
4 lessons, all of their lessons were handed down
5 from generation to generation to generation, but
6 we were taught to respect every one, to be honest
7 and humble. That we weren't to put ourselves in
8 front of others.
9 I was taught at an early age
10 that the creator was within me. When I think
11 about it, because having to be very aware of all
12 of my thoughts, words and actions, this respect to
13 -- had to be not occasional, always.
14 So when I think now in
15 retrospect, he was teaching me that I was a
16 spiritual being having a human experience and that
17 this respect that we had for everyone was to be a
18 constant thing.
19 Those lessons included trust
20 and patience. Those are the seven sacred laws
21 that were handed down from Chief Coyot (ph)
22 perhaps from a thousand years ago that we had to
23 treat every one with spirituality, trust, respect,
24 generosity, humility, honesty, and patience. Like
25 I say had the most problems with trust and 123
1 patience because this is the second time we're
2 doing this that here and we're going to hear a lot
3 of the same arguments. Unfortunately some of our
4 spiritual leaders have passed on.
5 But I really believe that the
6 message is still there.
7 When this process was announced
8 we had to wrap ourselves around it again. What's
9 different in this process here is the Panel
10 members. And I know it's the Panel members' job
11 to determine whether the impacts that are
12 identified in the previous process has been
13 addressed by this new project proposal.
14 With respect to the
15 transmission line. The answer is simple and
16 clear: Nothing has changed.
17 None of the impacts to the
18 Esk'etemc's right and title have been addressed.
19 There's been no new mitigation, and just for
20 everyone's sake here -- because I heard some of
21 our elders saying, you're using big words. I had
22 to look up mitigation in the dictionary and I'm
23 not saying this for you honestly. I'm saying this
24 for some of our elders.
25 Mitigation is an act of 124
1 mitigating or lessening the force or intensity of
2 something unpleasant as wrath, pain or stress
3 amongst adults. That's the dictionary
4 interpretation. The act of making a condition or
5 consequence less severe or the process of becoming
6 milder gentler or less severe.
7 That's what I found in the
8 dictionary. And quite honestly, I haven't seen
9 how this transmission line is going to be
10 mitigated because we here, and the speakers
11 following me, will show you that we have learned
12 to go without a lot of money because not that much
13 money comes to any of the bands. So we must go
14 outside to hunt.
15 Taseko's final EIS confirms
16 that mitigation's proposal to address Esk'etemc
17 rights are not new, they are old mitigation
18 measures that the last Federal Panel says would
19 not address the loss to First Nations. We agree
20 there.
21 Taseko will tell you the old
22 mitigations identified by the last Federal Panel
23 will mitigate impacts to Esk'etemc rights. But
24 the last Federal Panel didn't agree with that.
25 The previous Panel says that none of its 125
1 recommendations will eliminate or accommodate the
2 significant loss to First Nations that will result
3 from the project.
4 The Panel actually developed
5 the mitigation measures which Taseko now attempts
6 to rely on; knew that they would not work and said
7 so. The last Panel said if the project proceeds
8 it will result in significant adverse effects,
9 even if mitigation measures are applied.
10 Significant adverse effects from the project
11 include impacts to Esk'etemc's title.
12 The former Panel found that
13 there is a potential for significant adverse
14 impacts on Esk'etemc's title since the
15 transmission line will reduce the lands available,
16 of this process. The 30 meters clear cut right
17 away that is 125 kilometres long will remove this
18 here from any possible settlement lands that we
19 have.
20 There's been no effort to
21 reduce impacts to Esk'etemc title. Instead of
22 addressing the significant impact to title found
23 by the previous Panel, Taseko attempts to say that
24 the Esk'etemc cannot claim title and defers
25 impacts to the Esk'etemc title to be addressed to 126
1 the Crown.
2 This shows complete disregard
3 for section 2.5.1.1 of the EIS guidelines which
4 requires the Proponent to document potential
5 impacts to aboriginal right and title and measures
6 to mitigate these effects.
7 You also understand I wrote
8 this here prior to reading -- to hearing
9 Katherine's presentation just prior to mine.
10 So I'm not going to change this
11 because I've got some points in there that I'm
12 afraid I will lose. So if it's somewhat been
13 addressed at least realize that this here was
14 written prior to hearing that.
15 There Have been no new
16 mitigations or accommodations proposed by the
17 Crown to address impacts to title today.
18 Esk'etemc continues to be of the view the
19 significant adverse impacts to title will occur
20 regardless of the size of treaty settlement lands
21 as the transmission line will be taking up lands
22 within Esk'etemc's traditional territory. And
23 that is what I will submit after and I will let
24 you know regarding our maps for our traditional
25 study. 127
1 The impacts to title are even
2 more serious than set out by the previous Panel
3 since the duration of the transmission line is now
4 indefinite, long term and permanent with no
5 foreseeable end date and with a life span that
6 will last at least twice as long as the proposed
7 mine, if not longer.
8 In the final EIS, even Taseko
9 admits that the degree of impacts to right and
10 title depends on the duration of the transmission
11 line, remains in place before de-commissioning,
12 but they just answered the question regarding how
13 long that's going to be and that's not really
14 known.
15 This transmission line will not
16 only take away available treaty lands but it will
17 also deprive or take away from the Esk'etemc
18 ability to protect these lands and our sacred
19 heritage sites for our future generations and that
20 is why I brought up my grandfather and his
21 parents, because this is where we were taught our
22 lessons. We'll not be able to do that if we're
23 not heard.
24 So this transmission line will
25 reduce the amount of treaty lands available but it 128
1 will also interfere with our ability to make our
2 own laws to protect these areas which have
3 heritage value to us.
4 The last Panel also found that
5 effects of the transmission line on the Esk'etemc
6 may be long term and potentially irreversible
7 because the transmission line will result in or
8 backs to our ability to continue to exercise our
9 aboriginal rights due to increased access, loss of
10 cultural connection with the land and a direct
11 impact to the wildlife.
12 The Panel knew about the
13 mitigation measures when it made that statement.
14 The previous Panel knew that the mitigation
15 measures it proposed would not work to address the
16 impacts to the Esk'etemc harvesting and cultural
17 rights. When the previous handle said the impacts
18 to exercise Esk'etemc rights and current use could
19 be long term and irreversible, it noted that the
20 Fraser River is an area that is rich in
21 archeological and burial sites. The Panel found
22 the project would have a negative effect on
23 Esk'etemc aboriginal rights to hunt and harvest
24 plants and negatively affect areas important to
25 the Esk'etemc. 129
1 I want to talk about the people
2 here because in all of the other centres you've
3 heard the town versus the aboriginal interests, or
4 dollars versus food, medicine, livelihood.
5 I want to talk about our
6 traditional economy here. We have had to learn to
7 rely on our traditional economy. It is actually
8 the foundation of what makes us Esk'etemc. We do
9 not get the same amount of dollars for our
10 unemployed people on the reserve as even a town
11 Native gets.
12 For years they had to survive
13 -- a single man had to survive on $185 a month. I
14 think that's moved up to $235. But that is for
15 the month. So our traditional economy is based on
16 the exercise of our hunting, fishing, trapping and
17 gathering.
18 When we say that we're poor
19 monetarily, or financially, but we're rich because
20 we have everything, that's because we're able to
21 hunt or we must hunt in order to survive. We must
22 gather our medicines in order to survive.
23 The people here know so many
24 medicines, because if any one of you get a tooth
25 ache, it's to the dentist, and the amount of money 130
1 that costs nowadays. For the people here they
2 know what medicine they need to help with the
3 toothache, and it doesn't cost anything because
4 the Creator provided. It's out here on the land.
5 So we exercise these rights --
6 supports our traditional economy and way of life.
7 We certainly need to ensure
8 that these undisturbed lands are available for the
9 purpose of this hunting, trapping and gathering.
10 We have seen so many areas that
11 have been logged where we've lost the ability to
12 gather not only medicines but the berries and
13 whatnot that are -- that tend to dry up after it's
14 been logged. We need to ensure that we have
15 undisturbed waters that are available for fishing
16 and visiting of our sacred sites. We need to
17 ensure privacy in the areas we hunt, fish, pray,
18 gather and have all of our ceremonies, because
19 that is certainly the biggest part of our
20 traditional economy here.
21 We need to ensure that the
22 habitat for the mule deer and moose are not lost
23 or disturbed in areas on the proposed transmission
24 line. Habitat loss will reduce the wildlife that
25 we're relying on to exercise our rights, culture 131
1 and our traditional economy.
2 It's clear from the proposed
3 transmission line will take away the homes of the
4 animals that we hunt in this area. It will take
5 away the homes of the animals that we rely on to
6 survive. The habitat loss from the transmission
7 line will result in less mule deer and moose in
8 this area. There will be less resources to rely
9 on.
10 Our rights to hunt and fish and
11 gather are our traditional economy. We need to
12 protect these areas where the exercise of our
13 rights and our ceremonies in order to maintain
14 this culture here. Because we have so many people
15 that have an income much lower than the national
16 poverty line.
17 I really believe that when we
18 speak about our culture -- at last Panel hearing
19 one of our elders, Dorothy Johnson, said the
20 wildlife in this area is not just a food source,
21 but it teaches lessons about the respect for the
22 nature world, and these lessons cannot be learned
23 from the supermarket.
24 So many people rely now on four
25 point bolonga from Save-On. Sure, you kill every 132
1 time you go hunting supermarket. But when you
2 don't have a lot of money, that is usually
3 reserved for just the staples.
4 One of our members, Lynn
5 Chelsea, said that this will take away an area
6 where she was taught to hunt and survive, and she
7 won't be able to pass this on to her children,
8 that you would be taking away her life because she
9 lives on that land.
10 Francis Johnson in the last
11 Panel hearing said his concern for -- that his
12 future children will not be able to practice their
13 culture lands and the resources keep being taken
14 away.
15 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Mr. Johnson,
16 we've read the transcripts from the Prosperity
17 hearing and I'm anxious about the 33 speakers who
18 are coming after you. If you could focus on the
19 more important points, please. Thank you.
20 MR. JOHNSON: They are all
21 important. They are all important and I promised
22 when I came up here that I was going to be
23 definitely respectful, and I'm doing that.
24 I'm reading through to skip out
25 what you had read already. But I really believe 133
1 that what I will provide at the end regarding the
2 seven sacred areas that our elders pinpointed as
3 critical for our treaty settlement lands must be
4 protected.
5 We have seven sacred areas and
6 nine protected areas that will impact -- will be
7 impacted by the project, and these define who we
8 are, our way of life. This transmission line is
9 going to go across three of them.
10 There are burial sites along
11 the Fraser Fiver. So we use the river not only
12 for our sacred sites, or ceremonial sites, we use
13 it to get our food and we use the river. After
14 all, we are (Native word). We're river people.
15 Our lives have been impacted
16 from the very first non-Native people that came
17 into our territory here. We've had interference
18 from the church, from the government and from the
19 individual entrepreneurs who bought lands that
20 belong to us and kept us out.
21 So this river here and the
22 lands alongside it are critical to our elders.
23 They pointed that out as number one or two in
24 sacred sites that must be protected which will
25 heavily impact our way of life. 134
1 The Fraser River not only
2 brings us our food in that we were deer and salmon
3 people, but we also had medicines there and that's
4 where we were buried when we died.
5 So I really believe that
6 nothing that I've heard from the Taseko is going
7 to lessen the impact on the Esk'etemc. Nothing
8 that's been proposed or will be proposed is going
9 to change how we will get our backs up, certainly
10 when you see discussions on where the transmission
11 line is going to go.
12 Because that involves the
13 Fraser River and then we showed you sites
14 yesterday where our villages were. Saddle Horse
15 Mountain is another one of the sacred sites, and
16 the power line is going to pass right through it.
17 At the risk of mentioning
18 already what Fred, Chief Fred mentioned already, I
19 mean, I think there's going to be huge impact on
20 our moose and mule deer in the area. I've already
21 stated, and I assure you that I speak the truth
22 when I say the people, the Esk'etemc that sit
23 behind me, rely on the moose and the mule deer and
24 the salmon that come up that river. Otherwise, we
25 would have starved a long time ago. 135
1 The cumulative impacts on our
2 rights now -- like I say, you said you heard some
3 of that. You read some of that. I really want
4 you to honestly believe that none of that has
5 changed, and there's probable no mitigation
6 possible that will change how this is going to
7 impact not only us within our treaty, but impact
8 us in how we live in our lives.
9 I didn't come up here to take a
10 long time. I skipped through some of that there.
11 I was put off when you said that you read so much
12 of that, but like I say, I really believe that the
13 last Panel got so much of it, right, only so much
14 though. And it's your job now, and I do not envy
15 you your job one bit as to how this here is going
16 to turn out.
17 But I have no assurances.
18 Every one of us here knows that when straight
19 lines are cut into the country and are clear cut,
20 not only is it a problem through weeds and the
21 invasive species of plants that come in. I've
22 never heard any mitigation towards that. And I'm
23 a bit skeptical.
24 I have a lot of doubt and, I
25 guess this is where that trust -- the trust issue 136
1 that I have is because we had -- in 2010 we had
2 one band member working at Gibraltar, and he was
3 let go right after he was up here. I've since
4 talked to him. He's somewhat bitter now because
5 he said he's applied to other mines without ever
6 receiving another interview, and is wondering if
7 he was blackballed.
8 So I don't know how to answer
9 that or how to ask that question. But the other
10 thing I think I have, and it's regarding the
11 salmon. See, I don't recall that Gibraltar meant
12 to discharge anything into the Fraser River. I
13 believe they did not mean to. That was not part
14 of their plans. However, they did apply, and
15 despite all the Native protests, they were
16 discharging into the Fraser River.
17 We're saying now, right now,
18 our fishing is closed tomorrow night at midnight.
19 Is that possibly one of the results because they
20 are closing the fish, or they are closing the
21 salmon fishing, because there's nothing going into
22 Quesnel Lake or Horsefly or Bowring Lake (ph)?
23 So my question would be to
24 Taseko: Are there any plans to -- in the future
25 to apply for a discharge into the Taseko River 137
1 because? There is only one good run of salmon
2 that we ever have now, and that is the Chilko Lake
3 salmon.
4 It's on now, and incidentally
5 for our people here, we can still fish the Chilko,
6 but I believe that you have to really travel a lot
7 further because you can't -- you don't have to go
8 just seven miles down here. The fish -- the
9 closure of salmon is on the Fraser River only with
10 the idea so they would get to Quesnel lake.
11 Last year the Bowring Lakes had
12 22 pieces of fish that went back. Quesnel lake
13 had 624. So there's another bad year here. That
14 perhaps sounds the end of a species of fish that
15 we rely on here, and that perhaps four years from
16 now -- well, four years from last year, there's no
17 fishing again, and then perhaps this year it's the
18 same. So there's going to be more pressure on the
19 Chilko Lake run, so that's going to affect that
20 run as well.
21 But I'm not saying it's a
22 discharge into the Fraser River, or solely that
23 there. But I also wanted to ask that was my
24 question when questions were terminated prior to
25 lunch. 138
1 I want to submit -- and this is
2 the only confidential part of all of this that I
3 want to submit, and it outlines our statement of
4 intent in our treaty, and that's known by a lot of
5 people. But what this map shows here is the seven
6 protected areas that our ancestors, our elders,
7 pinpointed to say this is where we're going to
8 want some settlement lands.
9 This -- obviously we don't want
10 just for general consumption because then it just
11 would affect -- because -- would affect our
12 negotiations, this transmission line here is
13 affecting our negotiations, but within our
14 statement of intent you'll find that our interest
15 on the Fraser River is complete. It's from one
16 end of our territory to the other. This is where
17 our villages are, that's where our ancestors live.
18 That's where some of them that died in smallpox,
19 they are buried there. And we don't want
20 disturbance in those areas.
21 Otherwise, what I say is
22 certainly for public consumption and whatnot. So
23 I don't know the procedure or whatever, but we
24 have one of our staff that is trying to make an
25 electronic copy to provide because I believe we 139
1 are to provide four copies as well as electronic
2 copy.
3 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: I think for
4 this purpose, one is enough, and Livain will pick
5 it up. We have a copy. We will need another copy
6 for those members of Taseko who have signed the
7 confidentiality agreement. And I didn't read the
8 whole decision, but of course we will respect that
9 confidentiality. And at some point in the near
10 future -- I've forgotten exactly when -- we will
11 destroy what we have so the record is expunged.
12 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. Otherwise
13 I'm finished.
14 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Are you
15 finished now?
16 MR. JOHNSON: Yes.
17 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: In that
18 case, while this is made available to us, are
19 there any questions for Mr. Johnson? Taseko?
20 MS. GIZIKOFF: Thank you. It's
21 Katherine Gizikoff.
22 Thank you very much for your
23 presentation, Councillor. In the essence of time,
24 we'll keep our questions brief.
25 Based on your history here, I 140
1 wanted to ask a question about moose. We were
2 aware that when we were out in the communities, it
3 was previously documented elsewhere that moose
4 entered the area in those territories around the
5 1920s. But based on your knowledge, when did
6 moose become an integral aspart of the Esk'etemc
7 culture in this area?
8 MR. JOHNSON: Can I tell the
9 story my teacher told me about moose here? It's
10 not a long story.
11 But there was -- in 1926 --
12 1902, someone killed a moose, and they didn't know
13 what that was. So they brought it to an elder
14 that was here, and I hope I can get it right. The
15 elder said (Native word). This ended a long time
16 ago. We offered to get it before, so prior --
17 there was moose before, but it had been hunted
18 out. So in 1902 -- the 1800s, some point the
19 moose was finished here. But the story my teacher
20 told me right and I'm a good listener. (Native
21 word). These here were plentiful before, but they
22 were hunted out and now it's starting to come
23 back.
24 MS. GIZIKOFF: Thank you.
25 That's very interesting. The importance of the 141
1 oral history is very profound.
2 With regards to the hunting and
3 dealing with the province, have they been -- what
4 kind of reaction have they had to the communities
5 concerns about hunting, over-hunting, poaching,
6 increased access? Have they been willing to work
7 with the community on hunting regulations in the
8 area?
9 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. As a matter
10 of fact, I did take part of a news survey in
11 1992--1993 where we did a moose count with them.
12 And as a result of that, the low numbers they did
13 go forward to lessen the amount of licences that
14 were issued the following year. And there hasn't
15 been any because they say they don't want to
16 continue to study an area that they have already
17 studied, so they are looking at other areas.
18 But I don't believe the numbers
19 have gotten any better than we saw. And the
20 survey went from the Fraser River to Hundred
21 Mile -- the highway in Hundred Mile, and then from
22 Lac La Hache, Chimney Lake, down to continue
23 Musket Creek above Dog Creek.
24 MS. GIZIKOFF: Thank you very
25 much. 142
1 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: We have a
2 question that is a little sensitive, and I'm
3 wondering if, between you and Taseko, one of you
4 could show us, at least roughly, the transmission
5 line on this map?
6 MR. JOHNSON: I'm sorry, I
7 should have that marked out on the map.
8 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Even if it
9 were just reasonably accurate. We don't insist on
10 plus or minus 50 meters.
11 MR. GUSTAFSON: We'll try and
12 pass it on, and pass it by Irvine and get his
13 thoughts on it.
14 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
15 very much. Okay.
16 MR. SMYTH: I had a question.
17 You mentioned if the transmission line is built
18 before you have your land claim settlement, then
19 those lands would be lost to the settlement. How
20 about the scenario that those lands are included
21 in your settlement and then you become the owner
22 of the lands below the transmission line and so,
23 in effect, you become the landlord?
24 MR. JOHNSON: I think that's an
25 interesting concept, certainly. But knowing that 143
1 the way the negotiations have taken place between
2 the province and us, I mean, that's -- that would
3 be an onerous decision on their part, I'm sure.
4 We would welcome that.
5 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you,
6 Mr. Johnson.
7 Chief Robbins, did you have
8 something to add? In that case, I would like to
9 move along to the next speaker, who is Francis
10 Johnson Senior.
11 PRESENTATION BY FRANCIS JOHNSON SR.:
12 FRANCIS JOHNSON SR.: My name
13 is Francis Johnson Senior. They call me (Native
14 word) in Indian.
15 This my first time attending a
16 Panel, so for me it's educational and I really
17 appreciated Fred with his comments this morning of
18 making his statements regarding transmission line.
19 I want to state that when I was
20 younger I grew up along the transmission line up
21 there, number 11. And I've never seen any
22 animals, probably a lot of groundhogs, lot of
23 ground hogs there. But one of the things I really
24 noticed when I was growing up there is the sound
25 of the transmission line. The humming was always 144
1 continuous, and, as kids, we were always told, you
2 got to stay away from that line, you can't -- you
3 can't go there because they were afraid of maybe
4 electricity coming down. I didn't know how that
5 could happen, but was fearful of electrical
6 storms.
7 I look at electrical storms and
8 transmission line. I went through -- I would hear
9 static, I had to go under a number of times
10 because I lived by there during the thunderstorm.
11 It's very scary, and I just
12 imagine what the animals had to go through.
13 That's why a lot of animals wouldn't go near there
14 because the sound. They have way higher hearing
15 than we do, and I just couldn't imagine a moose or
16 deer coming under there.
17 But, nevertheless, groundhogs
18 did multiply under it, but I never ever seen moose
19 or deer around there. I just wanted to bring it
20 back to my stay at the Xeni Gwet'in territory.
21 Before I went there the vice
22 president of Prosperity came to our reserve for --
23 and I know Fred is uncomfortable with that, so
24 probably Irvine and we mentioned it.
25 And at that time we didn't know 145
1 much about it. I didn't know much about it. But
2 he came and he talked to us, and council members
3 were there and he put some money on the table for
4 us. And at that time I was just learning and he
5 did put -- he said, okay, money, lot of money is
6 going to come out of that.
7 And for me, I got greedy. I
8 was really greedy, what money was thrown on the
9 table. And I looked, I was picking $50,000 in my
10 pocket. That's what he was throwing on the table,
11 he was talking about that. And lot of us were
12 green with it, we should go through with that line
13 at that time. It was just beginning to learn
14 about this transmission line that was supposed to
15 go through our territory.
16 All of us were -- most of us
17 there were in agreement with it. We said, ah, we
18 should put that line, we're going to get rich,
19 we're going to -- talked about education,
20 education our young people. Our people were --
21 you know, a lot of people -- we have like 80
22 percent unemployment here. Our people are living
23 in poverty. What I mean, like a third world
24 country. We support each other. Every month,
25 young people, lot of young people have to wait for 146
1 that cheque, go to town.
2 It's not very -- I mean, it's
3 not very enterprising thing to do, to wait to get
4 a little bit of money, then wait again for the
5 next month. It's very humiliating. But our --
6 like in the past, our people always managed to
7 survive, always managed to survive, and we talked
8 about other power line going through our
9 territory.
10 First we didn't even protest.
11 Our people even got about 35,000 or something
12 like -- I don't know how many thousand we got for
13 going through our reserve up there. And they did
14 another negotiation. They got a million or
15 something for it. I don't know where the money
16 went.
17 A lot of our people, lot of
18 times we weren't told what was going on. We just
19 let that go through. We let the line go through.
20 No discussion. All at once there was a power line
21 going up. There was one line going up, then two.
22 And then all the years I've
23 been there, and lot of families too, but our
24 family it was closest because the power line went
25 right by our place and mentioned again that's a 147
1 very degrading site.
2 When you go through a lot of
3 hunters, they drive up there and drive through the
4 power line and, you know, it just playing blank.
5 Then they cut down the trees every few years, and
6 I could just imagine another line going through
7 and putting first -- brought together, a lot of
8 people say no, I think I'm going to stand in front
9 of it, I'm going to -- do it in a harsh manner to
10 stop that line.
11 But a lot of our people all
12 through the years, through the generations since
13 entrant of the settlements in this territory, when
14 we started a lot of people supported the
15 non-Natives that came along our river here, and
16 agreed with -- you know, they supported them and
17 helped them to live through the harsh environment.
18 Slowly over the years our
19 people, we started lose our rights, we started
20 lose our dignity and our freedom to fight for what
21 was right for us.
22 Our people grew up with fear.
23 Right now even it's fear, uncertainty, what's
24 going to happen. Are we going to let them go
25 through? Are we not? 148
1 I can't speak for everyone, but
2 I know a lot of people we heard here are
3 councillors, are the chiefs, but I know a lot of
4 people here who are going to be speaking who are
5 from (unintelligible), they are the root, the
6 route of the community.
7 And I'm not on council, I'm
8 just a member of the band. And like I said, when
9 I sit around the table I was agreed (ph), but
10 after I went over to the Taseko -- I mean, after I
11 went to Xeni Gwet'in, saying taught me a lot over
12 there. They really respect the grizzlies. We
13 don't go out and hunt grizzlies to eat them. We
14 have a respect for them. It's their territory.
15 We like them there. Oh, did you see any
16 grizzlies? Yeah, okay.
17 And it's become part of us.
18 The bears, the deer and the moose over Xeni
19 Gwet'in, they are going to lose that grizzly
20 population. They are already losing their moose
21 population. And just like over here what Fred was
22 saying, there's a really big decline.
23 Irvine is saying the same
24 thing. Everybody is going to talk -- talking
25 about the disrespect for the land, and a lot of us 149
1 here I really have big respect for it.
2 I spent last couple of days
3 taking my granddaughter up the creek. I went up
4 there picking crab apples and cherries. I got
5 marks on my teeth.
6 That's respect for the land.
7 (Unintelligible) medicine on my teeth, but we have
8 that respect we were taught when we was young.
9 All this animals, little plants you see out there.
10 I learned respect from Henry, Christine. They
11 would take me out into the bush. They teach me
12 where to get some rhubarbs, teach me where to get
13 the teas.
14 I learned from other people all
15 in the community who take me out. My grandmother
16 would take me out to the berry picking sites.
17 (Native word) power line. We learn that is lots
18 of medicines out there, lots of animals.
19 While I was at Xeni Gwet'in
20 territory and the chief came back and told me, she
21 said -- talking about Marilyn -- she said those
22 guys, when they came on the trucks and they were
23 stopping them in the road block stop them from
24 drilling, because they were going to drill and
25 going to find out how far the water is going to 150
1 go. Going to try to research how the water is
2 going to go into Taseko. Marilyn wouldn't let
3 them.
4 Those guys sued her, said we're
5 going to sue you. You stopped all our machinery
6 from going in. They were going to take 59 drill
7 holes, and they were going to -- when you just --
8 59 drill holes, of a lot of effect with -- to the
9 territory.
10 So you could imagine if a mine
11 site there. If you think about all the grizzlies
12 and the moose and the deer and the horse and the
13 people's way of life. For them, it's a loss of
14 life. It's a (muffled) respect that territory.
15 Really respect -- I see that
16 they really respect it. They don't want it to
17 happen. I respect it and I learn from -- I
18 respect it and I said okay, the territories, they
19 said this line go through here, this is our
20 responsibility over here, over there. But I think
21 with both our communities working together I
22 really respect that, what is happening. I came
23 today to learn and I didn't expect I was going to
24 be speaking. And I thank everybody because what
25 is happened here is very, very important because 151
1 what is happening from way past it's happening
2 today.
3 It's continuous since we were
4 starting, and people ask me how come they didn't
5 make any treaties in B.C.? People were so
6 powerful in the past against our people they
7 stopped treaties. They said we can run over them.
8 We don't need treaties. We start off with taking
9 away the man. We take -- use genocide. We'll
10 take away the children. We'll take away the
11 animals. We'll take away their humanity, the
12 humanness.
13 That's why they say we're going
14 to take care of the Indian problem. You guys are
15 a problem, they tell us. You guys are always
16 getting in our way, and I think right now we need
17 to stop that way of thinking.
18 That's what's happening here.
19 Government needs to listen to our people and stop
20 hurting us. We can't continue living in fear. We
21 can't. Lot of us -- I went through the
22 residential school, I grew up in fear. I was
23 afraid. And I come back I didn't know my
24 relatives.
25 And this what's happening up 152
1 here. It's continuance of we lose our fishing
2 rights. When I have to go down the river I got to
3 tell them how much fish I catch. When I go, they
4 make me sign a paper. They make me sign a paper.
5 Even you own a gun to go fish. Continuance -- we
6 live under a way of life that's just putting us
7 down continuously and I think it's time we stop
8 and we started to work together and start to help
9 each other instead of keep putting us down like
10 one of the speakers said.
11 (Native word) all my relations.
12 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
13 very much, Mr. Johnson.
14 Chief Robbins?
15 CHIEF ROBBINS: I just want to
16 have the Panel know that the next speaker was
17 intended to be Fred Johnson Sr. So if it's the
18 okay with the Panel, I would like to see if Fred
19 Johnson Sr. can come up.
20 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: I would
21 remind all speakers and questioners that will have
22 some 31 more people. My guess is that about 20 of
23 those will not be able to -- won't be able to
24 squeeze them in, so if we can hit some highlights
25 and we'll do our best the hear from as many as we 153
1 can.
2 PRESENTATION BY FREDERICK JOHNSON:
3 FREDERICK JOHNSON: Good
4 afternoon. My name is Frederick Sandy Johnson.
5 (Native word).
6 I'm from Alkali Lake. I'm here
7 to talk to the lawyers. I wanted to say
8 experience. I want to talk to our youth and I
9 guess I want to -- with the Panel.
10 Since 1983 I've been going to
11 the Vision Quest, and I heard a little bit about
12 it, about pareren (ph) ceremony, and I guess the
13 story I want to say is about the hope.
14 I hear a lot about the
15 environmental effects to the land and the water.
16 But Francis talked a little bit about it, about
17 the residential school.
18 It's been approximately 150
19 years in residential school came in our area and
20 for that long we have been infected with many
21 different mental and health issues, and I think
22 what I wanted to say -- I've seen a little bit
23 written in the paper about the effects of
24 alcoholism and drug abuse in Native communities.
25 And like I say, it's been 150 years and we're 154
1 still our leaders are still trying to deal with
2 that.
3 When I was here last tame I
4 think I was hoping that Taseko and the lawyers --
5 if you could hear this. I think if we could learn
6 from the residential school, the effects -- like
7 even today, 150 years our people are still
8 suffering from the effects of alcohol and drug
9 abuse.
10 Now I was thinking in my mind
11 with that mine going in how is it going to affect
12 our people? Because I sit back and I listen to
13 loss of culture, loss of language and I think with
14 the mine we're looking more like I say with the
15 land and the water. Maybe I'm not listening, but
16 I didn't hear the effects how it's going to affect
17 the people.
18 I think -- I don't know, maybe
19 I'm wrong. But I didn't hear any sociologists
20 talking about how it's going to affect the people,
21 our children, our future.
22 And what I wanted to say are --
23 with our young people, when I went to Vision Quest
24 I seen different things. I guess the thing that I
25 seen which brings hope, I was thinking I don't 155
1 want to talk -- I don't know to talk today because
2 I didn't hear anything about my presentation last
3 time but -- when Fred was reading his presentation
4 this morning, and I guess you did hear -- I guess
5 he did bring up some things that I did talk about.
6 But I want to say to our youth,
7 in my mind I thought this process is useless and I
8 brought a stick this morning I was carrying when
9 we were singing a song at the opening, and when my
10 nephew presented me with that stick I thought,
11 maybe they are telling me to come up and say, you
12 know, about that hope.
13 I also know that what we're
14 talking about here, we're collecting data that we
15 could good use in the future. That's why I want
16 to talk to the lawyers. What we're doing here, as
17 I understand, we're collecting data so that we can
18 protect ourselves and protect the land. And
19 that's why I decided I better -- come up and say
20 my peace because I was angry.
21 I thought, why am I sitting up
22 here a second time? Didn't you hear me first time
23 or...
24 But, anyway, the story I wanted
25 to say, and I was watching what happened last year 156
1 with the Idle No More, and I seen a lot of youth
2 get involved concerning the land and the people
3 and the culture. So I thought maybe I'll share my
4 experience, what I seen at Vision Quest.
5 I seen our youth that is
6 sitting in this room. I was on top of the
7 mountain and the youth were coming up the mountain
8 and they are happy and jubilant, but I didn't
9 understand what that meant till now. Till now I
10 understand with the mine and what we're doing
11 here, sitting here talking about our purpose and
12 the culture, our elders, our people, our youth and
13 the land.
14 And when I see those young
15 people on the mountain they were happy, and maybe
16 this is the time that we need the data that you're
17 recording right now, and my elders teach me to
18 bring the stick or the stone or the drum. That's
19 our witness.
20 I think we have a lawyer there,
21 but the law is right here from the elders taught
22 me is right here. You can fix the papers, but
23 this is the truth, and I want to be aware of that.
24 We had 150 years of suffering
25 after the residential school, and the trauma that 157
1 is going to happen when the mine comes in, and
2 that's why it's so important for us to collect
3 this data, because we're going to need it in the
4 future and we need to work somehow together. You
5 can't -- it's like I heard friends say, you can't
6 come here.
7 Yes, my generation was afraid,
8 but the next generation is not afraid. They don't
9 have the teachings that we were taught in
10 residential school to be afraid. They don't have
11 that. And they will be truthful, and that's why I
12 decided to come here, because I wanted to know the
13 day I know.
14 (Unintelligible due to
15 extraneous noise). You have to listen. You have
16 to listen. (Unintelligible due to extraneous
17 noise).
18 If you go back in our history,
19 I don't know 1996, 10 years ago, what happens when
20 you don't listen? And we had a meeting, this
21 meeting in this very gym to bring peace because
22 when you bring 200 RCMP against 17 people, with
23 armored cars, you know, that's what I see the what
24 the government can do. You can bring the force
25 but then you bring trauma to our people, you bring 158
1 trauma to all the land, all the things that's
2 (muffled) on it, and somebody's responsible for
3 that.
4 In my experiences, the person
5 that should be here is not here. You are only the
6 ears of that person. And the person that should
7 be here is not here and you have to go back and
8 they'll tell you to come back and deal with that.
9 That's not this way. It's not this way. You
10 should bring the people that's going to make
11 decisions and listen, not just take from the land.
12 You are taking from the land and that's not right.
13 And all other witnesses are listening there.
14 Might be recorded in your
15 computers, but the truth is the right here. And
16 somewhere along the line you are going to have to
17 be responsible for that.
18 So I would like to thank you
19 for listening and I thank you for everybody coming
20 here, and I thought you didn't listen, but again I
21 hope you listen. I don't know to say what's going
22 to happen, but I hope you listen. (Native word).
23 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
24 very much, Mr. Johnson.
25 Any questions? Taseko? 159
1 MS. SMITH: I just wanted to
2 compliment you on the courage to come and speak
3 twice, and that we are listening and you have my
4 word on that.
5 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
6 very much.
7 We have heard you very
8 carefully and we thank you for coming forward and
9 sharing your advice with us.
10 I will move onto Dorothy
11 Johnson.
12 CHIEF ROBBINS: Mr. Chairman, I
13 just would like to recognize some of the (muffled)
14 in the room that have just arrived. We have Chief
15 Shane Gottfriedson, the Chair of (native word)
16 group from the southern Secwepemc. We have tribal
17 chair.
18 We also have the tribal chair
19 of the northern Secwepemc, Mike Archie.
20 We have Elder John, who has
21 been there through thick and thin always watching
22 my back.
23 We have Cliff Ardoose (ph),
24 right? Cliff? Mike, sorry. Mike Ardoose.
25 And we also have Art Anthony 160
1 from (Native word), as a represent ive of southern
2 Shushwap tribes.
3 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you,
4 Chief Robbins.
5 Dorothy Johnson, please.
6 PRESENTATION BY DOROTHY JOHNSON:
7 MS. JOHNSON: First, I'll
8 introduce myself. I'm Dorothy Johnson, (Native
9 word).
10 My dad was Gilbert Harry, who
11 was really Chelsea from here. And my step dad --
12 I was raised by my step dad Jimmy George, who
13 we'll talk about this afternoon, and my mom is
14 Angela George. She was a Camille (ph) from
15 (Native word).
16 I was growing my name wasn't
17 Dorothy, my name was (native word). That means
18 bear. I moved up here when I was two years old.
19 It was in 1945 with my mom and step dad, Jimmy
20 George. We mostly stayed in the cabin IR4,
21 (Native word), until my step dad build a cabin at
22 (Native word), just right where the transmission
23 line is going to go. We build that cabin in 1947.
24 This place here this called (Native word). The
25 remains of that cabin is still there. There's two 161
1 cabins there.
2 We put up hay there for the
3 horses, and my step dad had a trap. He used to
4 hunt and trap there, hunt moose. And he picked
5 berries and my mom -- berries and picked medicines
6 there. The medicines were really important to us
7 because the berries, we made juice out of it and
8 when somebody got sick that's what they drank, was
9 the juice of these berries.
10 We can't get to a doctor so
11 these medicines were important to us. They are
12 still important, these medicines that we picked
13 off the land. We tanned hides, because there's no
14 welfare so that for essentials that we needed. We
15 also had to make our lamps out of the hide of the
16 moose and deer. That's what we used for light.
17 My mom danced in the sun dance
18 for seven years. I think the last three years was
19 in (Native word), and I and my cousins in Williams
20 Lake, three of us women we went and we fasted up
21 there. This year is a really spiritual mountain
22 for us, for my family because we fasted up there
23 and we come to the cabin and sweat during the day
24 and we go back up the mountain at night and pray.
25 We had the back roads over 162
1 there, wagon road where we went down (Native
2 word), which is Little Dog down there. And I
3 remember camping out in about four places down
4 there where we -- where my step dad hunted, and we
5 feast salmon and we dried a lot of salmon. And
6 one of these places where we camped out and dried
7 a lot of salmon was (Native word). That's a place
8 of the pit houses there, you could see all the pit
9 houses there. That's where we camped a lot and
10 hunted and fished and dried salmon. That was
11 really important for us.
12 We used to bring meat and
13 salmon to the elders here. You know, we had
14 extended family. You know, it's really important
15 to me because I -- still practice our culture and
16 traditions. I still pick my medicines, I still
17 pick -- cracked my ankle picking berries about a
18 month ago. So I still live the old way. We eat
19 salmon and moose and deer meats and prepare it
20 yet.
21 I strongly object to this
22 proposed power transmission line going through our
23 territories. It will impact our way of life. I'm
24 thinking of my grandchildren, my great
25 grandchildren. I have 13 great grandchildren and 163
1 one on the way.
2 And I'm Esk'etemc here.
3 I just told you about my happy
4 times with may family. I never thought I would
5 ever be on Panel for this project. You know, the
6 talk about the thing that were important to us and
7 it's still important. I stress that. It will
8 destroy our whole sustenance, the deer, salmon,
9 moose, medicines, which is our main diet since I
10 can remember.
11 I want my people, my family,
12 brothers, grandchildren and great grandchildren to
13 keep this -- with these traditions and culture
14 which is so important -- hunting, picking, drying.
15 All our way of food, this is our culture and I
16 want this to go on for generations to come. This
17 will have a long-term impact on our (muffled) and
18 wildlife habitat.
19 One example, the power line up
20 there. I used to pick one medicine there where I
21 went there for years, and after they put that
22 power line there I couldn't find the one medicine
23 I used to make there.
24 Just think if these went
25 through. You know, I get emotional. I think of 164
1 all our young people that still go out and hunt,
2 and all our families that go hunt and they share
3 what they get. You know (unintelligible due to
4 extraneous noise), so I depend on younger people
5 to come and bring me salmon. And I strongly
6 oppose against this power transmission line going
7 through our property.
8 So anyway, that's what I have
9 to say. I still practice everything I learned
10 from my mom. My mom and step dad, they never went
11 to school. My mom taught me everything she knew,
12 you know, and I spoke only (Native word) till I
13 went to the residential school. And I'm really
14 emotional because it will have a great impact on
15 our people here.
16 All my relations thank you for
17 listening to me.
18 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
19 very much, Ms. Johnson.
20 Questions? Taseko?
21 MS. SMITH: No questions.
22 Thank you very much.
23 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you so
24 much for coming forward and for offering us your
25 good advice. 165
1 The next speaker I have is
2 Shirley Robbins.
3 PRESENTATION BY SHIRLEY ROBBINS:
4 MS. ROBBINS: (Native word).
5 Esk'etemc. (Speaking Native).
6 Taseko talking about coming
7 into our land (muffled) enterprise. Also talking
8 and across the river creek, Chilcotin.
9 What I just said is we met in
10 2010 or really and we're still talking about what
11 we talked about then so what's the matter? Didn't
12 we listen to each other? Well, maybe it's good
13 that we're here, so we say it's again and are we
14 going to be here again in another three years
15 still saying the same thing?
16 What I wanted to talk about, my
17 concerns is the impact of the transmission line on
18 Esk'etemc (Native word) especially on our wildlife
19 because when you come from enterprise that way
20 there is -- my routes, and when that supposedly
21 the transmission line comes in, it comes on that
22 way, and it's going to interfere with our
23 migration roots and already we have hardly any
24 deer, we have hardly any moose on the east side.
25 There's hardly any, you know, and because our 166
1 hunters go back there and they don't see anything.
2 And also it's going to impact
3 our sacred sites. We have sacred sites in that
4 area where some of our spiritual leaders go and
5 fast. That's going to destroy our area. That is
6 what we call spirituality where our people go and
7 practice their spirituality, you know, and when
8 you go a little over here we've our sacred sites,
9 our winter homes. That's where our Esk'etemc used
10 to live in the 1800s, in our winter homes.
11 We didn't have homes like what
12 we have now, not until the early 1940s. Said, no,
13 we want to build you these homes and come and live
14 in IR1. So that's what happened and that's how we
15 live in IR number 1 now.
16 A lot of us lived in the
17 meadows, some maybe bought seven miles, maybe 10,
18 15 miles. And that was our way of life. We
19 followed that seasons. We followed the wildlife
20 picking berries and harvesting. That was our
21 lifestyle.
22 That's how we lived because a
23 lot of us had animals, a lot of us had horses, a
24 lot of us had cattle, so we had to go out and do
25 it. Do the hay. And sad to say, excuse me -- 167
1 some of us there was just women folk, so we had to
2 learn how to cut hay. Like me.
3 Because that's the way we were
4 taught. Some of us women, we were taught how to
5 be independent, how to be self-sufficient, how to
6 not wait for our men folk. But we were lucky.
7 Some of our men folk are -- would come and help
8 us. Whether it was with hay, making wood,
9 treating our animals in the wintertime. That was
10 really good.
11 Also with the transmission line
12 is going to have a big effect on our river, like
13 Little Dog. I think some of you went down to
14 Little Dog yesterday and where you cross over to
15 the other side, and then you go until you get to
16 Xeni Gwet'in. That's going to have a big impact
17 on our wildlife. I got my notes here, excuse me.
18 Also the impact on wildlife are
19 migration routes, our food supply, because we were
20 slowly -- there's been a decline in wildlife --
21 our bears, and lot of our hunters have to go
22 across the river to the other side around (Native
23 word) area to go hunting for deer and moose.
24 But what's really strange is on
25 -- behind Gang Ranch there's guiding outfits where 168
1 these people take hunters to go out and hunt, way
2 back, and some of it, sad to say, is for sport.
3 Because some people have seen the heads gone from
4 the deer and the meat just laying around, you
5 know, and that's the kind of food we need. That's
6 who we are. But for other people, that's not
7 important.
8 Also the logging is going to
9 have an impact on our land, the clear cutting. To
10 wait -- the medicines and berries, because in this
11 area over here we still have a lot of good timber.
12 But if it's cut down where else can we go?
13 Besides our men, we have
14 loggers here, but they are not paid what they
15 should be paid. You know, they are getting lower
16 end of the scale and that's not fair.
17 And also our -- my biggest
18 concern is the health on the animals. We heard
19 some of the animals have been sick, like the deer,
20 and also our people mentioned -- our people coming
21 down with cancer, diabetes, and we believe it's
22 because of what we eat. Like the salmon that we
23 get from the river. All the pollution that's
24 coming through the river and salmon is our way of
25 life. So we get it, we eat it and, guess what, we 169
1 get sick.
2 But that's all we have is
3 salmon and deer to eat. What else do we have?
4 Somebody say talk about
5 bolonga. That's a delicacy. It sounds funny but
6 that's all people have to eat. Right now you bet
7 if you went into somebody's house you would see an
8 empty fridge. That's what poverty is with our
9 people. You know what are we going to get out of
10 -- if we agree to this transmission line, if we
11 agree to Taseko in mining, what are we going to
12 get? In money wise? What are we going to get?
13 You know, a million dollars? A million dollars is
14 not enough.
15 So somebody got to have help
16 us, got to hear us, so what we get out of this
17 poverty. Our people are starving. This is
18 genocide. And we don't like living there and the
19 hardest part is our children are the ones that are
20 paying for what's happening to us right now. And
21 we can't allow that to happen any more.
22 So if you're here to hear us
23 and help us. Not one million dollars. Give us a
24 hundred million. That's not asking for very much.
25 Taseko is a willing to pay millions of dollars 170
1 just to get that mining, millions. What's a
2 hundred million dollars? We need it for
3 education, we need it for housing, and we need it
4 for economic development. Because we have a high
5 rate of unemployment here because we deal with the
6 government, DIA, that says you can only get this
7 much and no more.
8 You know, that's genocide.
9 Again -- and we've been living like this for a
10 hundred years. We can't keep living like this any
11 more.
12 So for compensation, what are
13 you willing to give us? What are you willing to
14 give us?
15 For the animals that have been
16 taken, what are we going to get for it? So that's
17 my biggest concern, and I'm here because I'm
18 speaking on behalf of my people. My community and
19 especially our children. We hear the little ones.
20 We have to speak on their behalf. Because for me,
21 I'm the fourth generation in my family from the
22 mid-1800s. I was lucky, I learned from my
23 grandparents, aunts and uncles.
24 I too went to the residential
25 school and somehow I survived. I kept my 171
1 language. I'm not (muffled) like our elders that
2 are 70, 80 years old, but I understand. So it's
3 for me to pass it on because I don't want to lose
4 who we are. Okay.
5 So thank you for being here.
6 Thank you for taking the time to listen to us, and
7 now it's your responsibility to do something with
8 what you heard.
9 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
10 very much.
11 Questions for Ms. Robbins?
12 Taseko?
13 MS. SMITH: Thank you very
14 much. No questions.
15 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
16 very much for your presentation, and for sharing
17 your ideas with us.
18 The next speaker I have is
19 Morris Chelsea.
20 PRESENTATION BY MORRIS CHELSEA:
21 MR. CHELSEA: (Native word).
22 We lived (unintelligible) -- sometime in the
23 fifties (unintelligible). Just not far hydro
24 lines coming across. And it's going to affect all
25 the burial grounds across there and the medicines. 172
1 We need to move on this side of the river in the
2 fifties and down to the schools (unintelligible.
3 (Unintelligible.
4 My grandfather was Billy
5 (Native word). And that's where he say that he
6 was water chief or something like that and our
7 name was changed to Chelsea because the white
8 people before couldn't pronounce it.
9 And after he moved from across
10 the river he said the people from across the river
11 were extinct, but some of our (inaudible). This
12 was written in the -- in some of the books we have
13 nowadays. We (unintelligible) come to Chilcotin
14 river.
15 My grandmother and my mother
16 used to catch sturgeons there. It was a good
17 life. My grandmother's name was Christine Sam
18 from Chilcotin. My mother was Anastasia. This
19 hydro line is going to affect some of the burial
20 grounds on Little Dog Creek and all the hunting
21 areas up on top where I brought my sons and my
22 grandsons to go up and hunt. And we used to camp
23 up there. (Unintelligible) one of the best
24 hunting areas we got around here. Besides Riske
25 Point on this side, or Alkali Ranch locking the 173
1 gates.
2 But then they lock the gates
3 and he got one of the people going in and the
4 chief at that time told the ranch owner charge
5 him, but he wouldn't because he knew that if he
6 charged a band member then it was the ranch was
7 infringement of aboriginal right to hunt. So
8 aboriginal right still goes a long on the power
9 line you got going.
10 If they arrest someone for
11 trying to protect the land, like that's our
12 aboriginal right to protect the land and we get
13 arrested, then that's a government infringement on
14 the Native. That's the way I see it.
15 And like two, three years ago
16 at Taseko was defeated in the mine project before,
17 and I think it was last year, or a couple years
18 ago, news said that Steve Harper threw insult to
19 window not to protect the land and the lakes and
20 rivers and streams any more.
21 I was wondering if maybe that's
22 what Taseko is back, because the government threw
23 all that out the window that Canada wasn't going
24 to protect the lands any more.
25 So all the mining and -- 174
1 (inaudible) moving in again. That's a question I
2 would like answered when I'm done here. And the
3 forestry, if they got the forestry -- was point
4 out the window by the government, why they still
5 have forest workers and TFO and all that trying to
6 protect it? So where you getting the money from
7 the AM (ph) guys. And maybe Taseko....
8 (unintelligible.
9 That's all I have to say.
10 Thank you.
11 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
12 very much, Mr. Chelsea. Questions? Taseko?
13 MR. YELLAND: No questions from
14 Taseko. Thank you.
15 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
16 very much Mr. Chelsea. We appreciate that.
17 At this time I think we need a
18 break. But you're welcome to say something first,
19 Chief Robbins.
20 CHIEF ROBBINS: Thank you. I
21 would just like to have Chief Gottfriedson and
22 Chief Archie come up and say a few words after the
23 break. And they are support to the Esk'etemc and
24 the Chilcotin (Native word).
25 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: That sounds 175
1 like a plan. So we'll take a break, 10 minutes,
2 and we'll be right back.
3 --- Recessed at 3:19 p.m.
4 --- Upon resuming at 3:30 p.m.
5 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: In terms of
6 how we best proceed, whatever Chief Robbins said,
7 I say.
8 Chief Robbins, because I was
9 distracted, you said Chief Archie?
10 CHIEF ROBBINS: It's Chief Mike
11 Archie from the Northern Shuswap Tribal Council.
12 He's the Chair. And Tribal Chair from SNTC,
13 Shuswap Nation Tribal Council. He's from
14 Kamloops, Chief Shane Gottfriedson.
15 PRESENTATION BY CHIEF SHANE GOTTFRIEDSON:
16 CHIEF GOTTFRIEDSON: My name is
17 Shane Gottfriedson, Chief of the Kamloops, which
18 is Kamloops Indian Band.
19 I'll spell my name for you:
20 Golf, Oscar, Tango, Tango, Foxtrot, Romeo, India,
21 Echo, Delta, Sierra, October, November. You got
22 that? I been chased by the cops a few times.
23 With me I brought two elders
24 with me today, part of our nation. I'm here
25 speaking on behalf of the Shuswap Nation Tribal 176
1 Council, which is comprised of 10 bands within our
2 nation.
3 I have elder Chief, or elder
4 Chief, Elder Mike(unintelligible due to extraneous
5 noise) from Adams Lake, Johnny Piero from
6 Bonapart, and with me I brought our eagle staff
7 from our community, and I also brought our unity
8 stick that the Esk'etemc youth gave us 10 years
9 ago.
10 And when we talk about, you
11 know, who we are and where we come from, we're one
12 of -- the Secwepemc is composed of 17 bands within
13 the Central Interior Region of B.C. We are
14 standing here in support of our northern brothers
15 and sisters.
16 We are unified, self-governing,
17 prosperous Secwepemc communities guided by the
18 Secwepemc values, language and culture and
19 sustained by the resources of Secwepemc. We
20 support the northern Secwepemc Chiefs in opposing
21 the Taseko Mine's proposal of an open pit copper
22 mine, copper and gold mine, at Fish Lake.
23 We oppose the project because
24 of the negative impact it'll have on Aboriginal
25 rights and title and the precedent it may say for 177
1 other communities if Aboriginal concerns are not
2 taken into consideration.
3 This project will impede on
4 traditional and cultural use activities in the
5 area. It will have long-lasting, negative impacts
6 on surrounding communities. The environmental
7 concerns aren't limited to a specific area or
8 region, but effect all the communities and First
9 Nations in this province, especially when it comes
10 to our wildlife and fish.
11 I've heard the elders get up
12 and speak and talk about their occupancy and use
13 of their lands and their way of life.
14 Where I come from, I live right
15 next to the city. We have 35 thousand acres of
16 land which belongs to Kamloops, and we live right
17 next to the city.
18 Coming up and driving up today
19 we cut across through, just before 70 Mile across
20 the land, and that's the first time,
21 unfortunately, I've been across that road to this
22 territory.
23 You know, when I think about
24 what I witnessed today and I seen the logging, the
25 clearcut logging that's taken place over the 178
1 territory -- and I've seen the wild fires that
2 devastated the land. As a Secwepemc person, as a
3 First Nations person, our responsibility, our
4 (Native word) which is our sacred responsibility,
5 is to our land.
6 When I think about where I come
7 from, we can sustain ourselves by adapting to the
8 culture, by adapting to the world around us.
9 A lot of my relatives here
10 still rely on the land for sustenance, for
11 medicines, for hunting, for their way of life. I
12 always like coming up here because it reminds me
13 of the times when my grandparents were still
14 alive, you know, and the values that, you know,
15 how they used to live off the land.
16 Big family, that responsibility
17 of not being able to run to Safeway but go out on
18 the land and provide for yourself. Looking at the
19 timeline and the history of, you know, the
20 exploration in the territory here, I did my
21 homework.
22 I'm honoured that Chief Robbins
23 asked me to come up and speak on behalf of the
24 nation, to speak on behalf of the other Chiefs
25 that couldn't make it from our territory, to be 179
1 able to express our concerns about our way of
2 life, to express our concerns about our well-being
3 of our families, to speak for the un-born, to be
4 reminded of our ancestors who inhabit our
5 territory that are always watching us through our
6 sacred instruments, through our medicines, through
7 our ceremonies, our Indian ways.
8 As I was taught, we have to
9 respect our land. If we take care of that land,
10 that land will take care of us. Living in the
11 20th century where we come from, we've come a long
12 way in a short period of time at Kamloops. We're
13 involved in mining ourselves, but we're involved
14 in a process down our way with New Gold. We work
15 with the company you know from a top-down
16 approach, not a bottoms-up approach.
17 We work with them in ways that
18 set the mark for other companies to follow, but I
19 say this with all due respect as well - and I want
20 these words taken down - is the fact that when
21 First Nations that want partnerships with
22 industry, First Nations will be the best partner
23 you'll ever have. If First Nations oppose
24 something, First Nations will be your worst enemy
25 you'll ever have as well. 180
1 When I look back on the
2 timeline when the initial exploration took place
3 in 1930's in this territory and where you've come
4 from in seventy years, it really breaks my heart
5 to see that the lack of consultation over the
6 seventy years has been very limited.
7 This is the second time I've
8 come up to this territory and spoke to the Panel.
9 I'm 47 years old. I've never thought that I'd be
10 able to speak to the same Panel twice in my life.
11 When I think about the work
12 that's involved when you look at feasibility, when
13 you look at all of the stages of mining, and the
14 impact of what mining does have on the way of our
15 land and the way of our people, I know firsthand
16 what the impacts are.
17 We're fighting the same fight
18 as our brothers are fighting with another mine in
19 our territory because the company does not
20 understand, nor do they have the knowledge of our
21 ties to our land, our history.
22 The 25 people that are on the
23 list are going to share their stories about the
24 impact and the way of their lives, just like the
25 elders shared before me. 181
1 When I think about the last 75
2 years, that some of us have never learned a thing
3 about our way of life, even in this process, and I
4 say this with all due respect, I don't see enough
5 brown faces sitting on the other side of our
6 table. That's a concern for me. It's a concern
7 for me when I look at the work that's being done
8 by our many committees in Indian country.
9 When I look at the problems
10 with the environmental assessment process, when I
11 look at the legislation itself, you know, it's
12 troubling. When the government can pass an
13 omnibus bill putting our environmental issues as
14 part of the omnibus bill and not having our
15 consultation on that process, it's a problem for
16 me.
17 Even though we live right next
18 to the city, we are very, very concerned about
19 environmental impacts of any development in our
20 territory, just like our relatives here.
21 I'm a father of five. I'm a
22 grandfather of one, and when I think about the
23 impacts and our responsibility of the next
24 generation -- because I'm only here doing my
25 community service for a period of time, and I want 182
1 to ensure that the work that I do, our people will
2 think back about August -- what's the date today?
3 August the 20th. Where did our summer go? August
4 20th, 2013, that this gathering that's taking
5 please here, this Panel, that our voices are
6 heard.
7 When I think about -- I've
8 travelled all over the world. I've seen the
9 world. I don't claim to know anything. I'm
10 (Native word). I'm poor and I'm pitiful. I know
11 nothing.
12 When I think about some of the
13 problems with the legislation -- and I've seen the
14 world. I think our First Nations people, we need
15 to be more engaged in the process and the
16 consultation, accommodation; whether that's a
17 government-to-government process or whether that's
18 a government-to-industry process.
19 I think there's increasing
20 substantial evidence that the relationship with
21 Aboriginal people, when we talk about
22 reconciliation we need to move closer toward that;
23 that's with industry and with government.
24 You know, I feel I could
25 probably talk for an hour, but it's my 183
1 understanding too, that the company took all
2 morning to speak. So I travelled a long way to
3 come up here to deliver a message.
4 Our message is very clear that
5 there needs to be a new process. When we talk
6 about what we're engaged in, we talk about our
7 cultural and heritage law as Indian people; that
8 supercedes every other law, every white law,
9 including the environmental assessment process.
10 When we sit down with industry
11 we talk about our cultural heritage law. We drive
12 that process, not industry, not government. We
13 drive that. Whether it's mining activity,
14 forestry activities, whether it's a pipe line, we
15 drive that process. Those are done under our
16 terms and conditions through our cultural heritage
17 law.
18 You know, I always think about
19 the future. I think about where we're going to be
20 in the next 20 years. When I think about our
21 territory and how much we've grown since I was a
22 kid -- and I'm only 47 years old. In 1960 we
23 lived off our land. We are ranchers, farmers. We
24 logged, hunted, fished.
25 We managed to adapt with those 184
1 times. Is every community similar to ours? I
2 don't think so. I still think the philosophy of
3 our people of living off the land and respecting
4 their wishes should come first before industry,
5 before government's agenda, because the
6 government's agenda has failed us miserably,
7 through legislation, through policy and
8 development. Has failed us miserably.
9 I drive into the city of Salmon
10 Arm, that road is paved. You drive into
11 Esk'etemc, that road isn't paved. You drive into
12 Dog Creek, over that road, that road ain't paved.
13 As First Nations we been living with challenges
14 our whole life.
15 I stand before you today as a
16 Secwepemc Chief talking about supporting our
17 brothers and sisters up north here. Because if we
18 don't stand together and support one another, what
19 message is that telling our young people; our
20 ancestors watching us now through our medicines,
21 through our Indian way, that some don't
22 understand, you'll never know. We do. We live
23 those hardships of poverty every day. We live
24 those hardships of struggling to maintain our
25 families, our way of life. 185
1 The government has tried
2 everything to assimilate us through Indian
3 residential school, through the White Paper
4 Policy, through land development, by forcing us on
5 pieces of property. We don't even own our land
6 today under the Indian Act.
7 As panel members, as an
8 industry, you know you guys have a chance to
9 change that if you work with First Nations to look
10 at the future.
11 How important is this
12 development, really, to the global economy? I
13 don't think it'll have a lot of impact with all
14 the activities that's taking place in British
15 Columbia now.
16 As a nation we work toward
17 recognition and respect for Secwepemc
18 self-government, Aboriginal title and rights.
19 Thank you for listening to me.
20 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
21 Chief. Should we take questions? All right.
22 Thank you very much.
23 CHIEF GOTTFRIEDSON: I could
24 sit here all day and debate with you guys, all
25 darn day. I've got a lot of respect for my 186
1 brothers and sisters up here and I think the
2 message is really -- you've heard my presentation.
3 I want to you take the time to
4 listen to our relatives up here and what they came
5 say to say.
6 I say thank you for taking the
7 time to listen to me and if I offended any of you,
8 I apologize, but I'm here to speak the truth. I'm
9 here to deliver a message on behalf of our nation
10 as well, because we are important people.
11 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Just for
12 certainty, no insult taken. We appreciate your
13 offering the advice. Taseko, did you have any
14 questions for Chief Gottfriedson?
15 MR. YELLAND: No. Thank you
16 very much.
17 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: As a matter
18 of propriety, I should say when Taseko spoke this
19 morning they spoke about 35 minutes, not all
20 morning. So we should be a little bit fair to
21 them at least.
22 CHIEF ROBBINS: I think it's
23 important that I recognize one more person in the
24 audience, Marilyn Baptiste from Xeni Gwet'in, also
25 a member of the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs. She 187
1 is the secretary treasurer.
2 PRESENTATION BY CHIEF MIKE ARCHIE:
3 CHIEF ARCHIE: My name is Chief
4 Mike Archie from Canham Lake. I hold the tribal
5 chair for Northern Shuswap and I'll be here today
6 in support of my relatives here in Alkali Lake,
7 the place they call Esk'etemc.
8 It doesn't happen by any chance
9 any one of us Chiefs are here today and you're
10 here. I was reflecting back the way I was raised
11 by my people and ever since I first was born one
12 of the key things instilled was the importance of
13 our land and connection to the people, and our
14 survival. Basically where we're at.
15 I come from a line of what I
16 would call hereditary Chiefs. My dad was a Chief,
17 my stepfather was a Chief and the one I would call
18 another father figure, was also a chief and I
19 remember being told as a kid growing up 6, 7, 8
20 years old I'd go to the next house and it was the
21 Chief's house and after some time listening to
22 what my Chief had to say, we talked.
23 He shared a lot about World War
24 I, World War and he talked about a lot of other,
25 other activities about being out on the land and 188
1 survival.
2 And the first lady, his wife,
3 told me specifically, she said, Mike, listen
4 carefully, one day you might have to repeat what
5 you heard there. I grew up in a place called
6 Canham Lake and I also hold the tribal chair for
7 Northern Shuswap and give that support.
8 And I grew up in my community
9 and I grew up in a little place called Esket
10 Valley, which is 20 miles east of 100 Mile. But
11 I'm also part of the 17 bands called the
12 Secwepemc, and out of those 17 bands we have 450
13 thousand square kilometres of traditional
14 territory and the population in Northern Shuswap
15 at this time stands about 23 hundred.
16 The total population of the
17 Northern Shuswap, or the Shuswap Nation stands
18 pretty close to 10 thousand.
19 I been here listening to my
20 relatives before talk about the importance of the
21 language and the ties to the land.
22 I grew up going to school. I
23 have an education. I graduated. I want to
24 post-secondary, First Nations, with the Bachelor
25 of Arts in First Nations and a minor in First 189
1 Nations studies. And it was a difficult time of
2 studying about the history of Aboriginal people in
3 Canada, a place we call a free country, and
4 interpreting what the government policies and
5 legislations have for First Nations people was
6 very difficult.
7 I struggled in my studies. The
8 treatment with our people has been disgraceful,
9 disrespectful, as a people of our land over the
10 past 150/151 years, the laws and the policies and
11 the legislations imposed on our people to kill the
12 Indians in the people. We heard one speaker speak
13 about that.
14 And to deal with the foreign
15 government -- and we talk about the resources in
16 the agreements, poverty, education, and we only
17 had 2 percent in education for the last 30 years
18 and education is the key for my community.
19 And we look at the development
20 and talk about the transmission line. We talk
21 about Taseko Mines. We talked about any kind of
22 economic development at the provincial level and
23 we talked -- and we talk about how does that work.
24 The government talks about the
25 consultation and accommodation process. They talk 190
1 about consulting with First Nations before
2 developing any kind of projects.
3 A lot of the projects, the
4 Chief that spoke before me, Chief Shane
5 Gottfriedson, mentioned that a lot of the
6 hearings, the process is flawed; on one side of
7 the table we have First Nations, on the other side
8 I see a foreign government hearing what the First
9 Nations have to say, decision makers making
10 decisions what's going to happen on First Nations
11 territories and those things have to change, those
12 things, that process is flawed.
13 There's too many times across
14 the Province of British Columbia and Canada that a
15 lot of the government policies and process has
16 been created and imposed on our people. A lot of
17 that would have been avoided if Aboriginal people
18 were at that table making those decisions. It
19 impacts a lot of our lives.
20 The transmission line, a mine
21 company, B.C. Hydro, look at the poverty. You
22 heard the poverty in the communities. For the
23 longest time our people have been very patient,
24 been very co-operative and got next to nothing.
25 1910 Sir Wilfred Laurier signed 191
1 the document by all the Chiefs that everything
2 would be divided 50/50. We have not seen any
3 results out of any of those agreements and it's
4 over a hundred years ago. Not too much has
5 changed. It's gone from bad to worse.
6 The United Nations Rights of
7 Indigenous Peoples were signed by Canada, the
8 third last one to sign that document. And they
9 pride themselves on the how Canada is a free
10 country and how the relationship is working.
11 There was an apology by the
12 Prime Minister, but we need to see some actions
13 out of those. Today, with the Tribal Council,
14 Tribal Chair, Northern Shuswap, I'm here today to
15 express our support for Esk'etemc First Nations
16 today here and in Dog Creek and Canoe Creek.
17 I've also talked about growing
18 up in my community and being raised by my elders
19 as well, my granny. I grew up -- I been alcohol
20 and drug free for 23 years. I've gained
21 education, raised my children.
22 On one hand, I hold an
23 education, what I would call an education in
24 western society, might be a Bachelor of Fine Arts
25 with a major in First Nation's Studies. I 192
1 understand section 35 and we talk about the rights
2 of indigenous people as well.
3 As well I been raised by my
4 community in the Secwepemc way about the protocols
5 and the way we go out on the land. I dance a
6 First Nations dance in a traditional men's bustle
7 that I carry the bustle borrowed from the east.
8 I also have a name given to me
9 by my uncle, it was my stepfather's World War
10 unintelligible) veteran by the name of (Native
11 word).
12 I grew up in my own life
13 looking at the type of pain and dealing with it to
14 sober up, to have a sober life and raise my family
15 in a good way and by working on that I went up in
16 the mountains and our people we called it (Native
17 word). We go up to heal ourselves and look at
18 what we can do for our communities. And when we
19 come down we're worthy that we can help other
20 people.
21 So, with that, I also hold the
22 traditional lifestyle as well. I hope that you
23 hear as well as take some action with the words
24 that you have.
25 My relatives here in Alkali 193
1 Lake, my mother comes from out this way, so thank
2 you for taking a few minutes to hear my words and
3 this is(unintelligible). I am Chief so(Native
4 being spoken).
5 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
6 very much, Chief Archie.
7 CHIEF ROBBINS: One more.
8 PRESENTATION BY ART ANTHONY:
9 MR. ANTHONY: Art Anthony,
10 A-N-T-H-O-N-Y, councillor for the (Native word)
11 community.
12 I don't want to take up too
13 much time here. I'll be brief, because a lot of
14 the Esk'etemc members are waiting patiently to
15 express the way they feel about what is going on
16 here.
17 But my friend over there is
18 waiting patiently and I think he wants to get up
19 here and speak also.
20 I just want to say that
21 everything that Fred Robbins said this morning in
22 his statement is true. Because I know that
23 they're very cultural and spiritual in this area,
24 because as a (Native word) way back when, I
25 witnessed and was part of the things they do up 194
1 here culturally.
2 I fasted up in the hills here
3 with the people and I'd like to say, you know,
4 even one of these staff's was passed on to me by
5 one of the youths. I passed that on to my
6 present(Native word)Judy Wilson. So she has that
7 just to remind us down south of our brothers and
8 sisters up this way.
9 And without further adieu,
10 Chief Shane Gottfriedson has shared how we feel
11 down south there. I know our community is faced
12 with the same concerns and problems with mines
13 because we have three that are developing up in
14 our upper watershed. So, you know, the same
15 concerns about our water and our fish, our
16 wildlife, all our traditional use area.
17 So, you know -- and I'd like to
18 say that we supported the communities up this way
19 back in 2010/11 and I'm just expressing that we're
20 renewing our support and I think our (Native
21 word), Judy Wilson, has submitted a statement to
22 that effect.
23 In a way, without further
24 taking up the time of the people up here I'd like
25 to say thank you for hearing me and that, you 195
1 know, when I'm with the people up here -- and I've
2 always said to the people down south if you want
3 to learn about your culture go up to Esk'etemc
4 because they're very strong up there in their
5 culture.
6 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you,
7 Mr. Anthony. By way of an alert, we have 27 or so
8 more speakers and, as a secondary alert, about 6
9 o'clock, we will hear no more speakers. We must
10 return in time to get a good night's rest so we
11 can properly respect Canoe Creek and Dog Creek
12 tomorrow. Are we switching order here? The next
13 I have is Burt Johnson.
14 PRESENTATION BY BURT JOHNSON:
15 MR. JOHNSON: (Native word).
16 I'm going to make it short.
17 I'm going to speak about the water. The water is
18 really cultural to all people. We use traditional
19 ceremonies. This is how our ancestors teach us,
20 send us to show us what to do. This is how our
21 ancestors become strong, to see a long distance.
22 When they become strong they can see who is coming
23 for miles.
24 Even if you just get out of
25 your chair, that's how powerful this water is. So 196
1 I use the water in my own days. I heard a lot
2 about fasting in the mountains.
3 In my day when I go fasting we
4 go on mountains, we don't return till we're ready.
5 So we use the water to do the same thing, to
6 become strong, to help our people. It was the
7 only way we had doctors before.
8 You might not understand our
9 culture. If I tell you we had Indian doctors,
10 that's the way they become strong, was through
11 water. That's why I don't like to see turning
12 water to the biggest dirt. This pollution will
13 kill everything in it's path. That's why I
14 respect the water. I like to keep it that way.
15 That's why I want to think about it, how to use
16 it.
17 There's a lot of animals we use
18 in that water, not only fish. We use the muskrat,
19 the beaver, all the water animals. We use that.
20 The water, you disturb it, you disturb lots of
21 food. That's why I will say no to the
22 transmission line.
23 I just wanted to say briefly
24 and I'll thank you people for listening to my
25 short speech. 197
1 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
2 very much, Mr. Johnson. Arthur Dick.
3 PRESENTATION BY ARTHUR DICK:
4 MR. DICK: My Indian name is
5 (Native word). It comes from the sacred mountain
6 here, but I'm Arthur Dick, and I just want to
7 share a little bit.
8 I been to court for over 10
9 years fighting for our hunting and fishing rights
10 and it's always been a challenge to try and
11 explain our ways and how we live, who we are, what
12 we are and why we exist. So this is nothing
13 really new to me.
14 You know, I think about what's
15 going on now -- and I've had a chance to travel
16 throughout North America. I lived in Mexico for a
17 while, Mexico City for a while. I've been across
18 Canada three times. I've been in the United
19 States three times. It's always the same story, I
20 guess, from ever Indian community across Canada,
21 the United States, and Mexico, but one of the
22 things that I want to express today is our
23 prophecies. It's hardly ever mentioned.
24 I follow our prophecies and
25 what our prophecies talk about. In my community 198
1 I'm one of the spiritual leaders. That bundle you
2 see here, I have a responsibility to look after
3 that and it's pretty much for the community. I
4 just want to mention, you know, if you follow
5 protocol we might be able to help you in different
6 ways. We might be able to assist in different
7 ways if you follow protocol. So I want to mention
8 that.
9 I guess the thing that I think
10 about most today that is my biggest concern is the
11 environment. And it's interesting how you see
12 what's happening. You know, Taseko, they have
13 their own environmental people, but when I talk to
14 David - Dr. David Suzuki - he has a different view
15 on the environment.
16 I just want to mention what he
17 told me. He said inside of 70 years there's going
18 to be no more marine life if this continues, this
19 pollution. Inside of 70, no more marine life. I
20 believe him because he did a study on that.
21 And then our Fraser River, the
22 salmon in our Fraser River, in my mind and what I
23 see inside of 5 years we're not going to have any
24 more salmon, 5 years. So that isn't very long.
25 You know, I just kinda wanna mention that. 199
1 You know, I always take the
2 time to learn and listen and I do research and I
3 think about things and, you know, I just want to
4 take the time to mention that that bundle I
5 brought here this morning is part of what I do. I
6 take care of that bundle. It's my responsibility.
7 So whatever gift is on that bundle belongs to me.
8 Just making sure Fred knows that. There's a lot
9 of drums on that bundle.
10 The elders talk about protocol.
11 You need to respect the protocol that we would
12 like to see. You have to bring something. It
13 took me years to reconcile with what's going on,
14 and I had to work hard to reconcile and really
15 find a way how to find peace.
16 I just want to close by saying,
17 one of my teachers asked me once -- he's passed
18 away. He said, Are you willing to die for what
19 you believe in? Only then you will be proud of
20 who you are.
21 I decided when he asked me I'm
22 willing to do that. I'm willing to sacrifice
23 myself for what I believe. I still hold that
24 commitment.
25 We have to look at the 200
1 environment. We have to look at what's happening
2 to the rivers and creeks, because Dr. David Suzuki
3 told me inside of 70 years there's going to be no
4 more marine life. Inside of 5 years no more
5 salmon in our river. Those are, facts. Spiritual
6 facts, fact from Dr. David Suzuki.
7 I had asked Dr. David Suzuki to
8 come here to help us and he couldn't make it, but
9 he wanted to be here. I still think about him.
10 Because he's, you know, done a lot for the
11 environment.
12 But the environmentalists that
13 you have, they don't represent who they should
14 represent. I just wanted to say that. I hope you
15 respect the wishes of my people and the wishes of
16 what's presented here.
17 Thank you.
18 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
19 very much, Mr. Dick. Francis Johnson Junior.
20 PRESENTATION BY FRANCIS JOHNSON JUNIOR:
21 FRANCIS JOHNSON: Good day, I'd
22 like to thank you for giving me an opportunity to
23 talk about the river, my hunting grounds. It
24 really means a lot to me.
25 My name is Francis Johnson. 201
1 I'm a member of the Secwepemc. I have a beautiful
2 wife and four children. I have a Bachelor's of
3 Science in natural resource management. I am
4 disclosing this not to be boastful, but to give
5 the Panel a perspective on how I see things and
6 the New Prosperity Mine.
7 I'm a descendant of the late
8 Charlie Johnson who was a hereditary Chief and
9 great story teller and an oral historian.
10 I will be presenting today on
11 how I use the areas effected by the transmission
12 line and how the transmission line will effect my
13 ability to carry out my traditional way of life.
14 I will confess I'm not against
15 ecological, sustainable mining; nor am I against
16 development. As a forester in training I have an
17 appreciation of economic development through
18 extracting resources on the land to create
19 employment and revenue, however, there are several
20 reasons I will state later in my presentation why
21 I can't support the current Prosperity Mine.
22 I'll begin the cultural portion
23 of my presentation by saying that I try my best to
24 live within my cultural values that were passed
25 down to me. I'm still learning from our elders 202
1 who I think are a wealth of information on the
2 land and traditions.
3 The struggles we have today as
4 First Nations people is balancing our Aboriginal
5 life and those of mainstream society.
6 I'm trying my best to raise my
7 children to ensure that they can survive in this
8 new world and maintain their traditions. For
9 myself, this mine represents a clash of the these
10 two cultures.
11 I wanted to shorten my
12 presentation a bit, so I'm going to leave a lot of
13 my notes for my traditional fishing and hunting
14 background, but I just wanted to let the Panel
15 know that every area that the transmission line is
16 where I hunt and fish, including alpine hunting,
17 moose and deer hunting, gathering of berries and
18 medicines, which I'm still learning to do and I'm
19 trying to teach my children all these things.
20 I just want to just hit a few
21 points in my discussion with how the river, how
22 the fishing, the transmission line is going to
23 effect my fishing.
24 The hydro line will be visible
25 from both of my fishing sites and pass within a 203
1 couple hundred meters of southern fishing rock and
2 the long trail at the fishing site. Why does this
3 bother me? These sites are adjacent to old
4 village sites, and oral history tells me that at
5 least several old burial grounds are located
6 within the vicinity.
7 While fishing at these sites it
8 gives me a great sense of peace and a sense of
9 spirituality knowing that you're fishing at the
10 very place your ancestors did. This area is
11 pristine, timeless, and tranquil. In my mind it's
12 a spot worth protecting for our children and
13 future generations.
14 I just want to go on towards
15 how the transmission line will effect my hunting.
16 And the bottom line is, the transmission line is
17 putting a line through my back yard smoke house,
18 living room and kitchen and the effect to my
19 hunting will be obvious. The increased traffic
20 from humans and predators will have effect on the
21 deer and moose population and on the mule deer
22 migration, including mule deer winter ranges and
23 old growth management areas.
24 Most of my hunting areas along
25 the river are covered by private land. Taking 204
1 away this area will further infringe on my
2 Aboriginal right to hunt.
3 I have a few other points I
4 just wanted to let the Panel know why I'm against
5 the New Prosperity Mine; the first, the obvious
6 environmental concerns that the experts have put
7 forward.
8 For the most part, in my mind
9 the mine is a land issue. We want to protect our
10 land because of it's significance to our culture
11 and traditions.
12 The William case on the
13 Aboriginal rights and title of the Xeni Gwet'in
14 was such a precedent-setting case I feel Esk'etemc
15 has to support their cause because of the effects
16 that we have felt from following years to come.
17 The second point I want to make
18 is that the areas down at Little Dog and Saddle
19 Mountain are the core areas for the Esk'etemc
20 treaty lands.
21 Why is the B.C. government able
22 to stamp approval for the mine while not
23 addressing the current treaty issues? Is this
24 negotiating in good faith?
25 I don't speak for everyone, but 205
1 many First Nations people I spoke with from
2 Esk'etemc are growing increasingly frustrated with
3 the process and have began to organize to stop
4 Prosperity Mine from proceeding if the go-ahead
5 without approval of the bands.
6 Unlike our people only 50 years
7 ago, we now enjoy the right to protest and free
8 speech. I feel strongly it's time for us to take
9 a stand for Aboriginal rights and title and to
10 protect the environment, our culture and our
11 identity as a people of this land. In doing so,
12 I'm fully aware any block to economic growth is
13 considered as terrorism or radical by our
14 government.
15 We, as the Esk'etemc, and all
16 Canadians, have an obligation to our children and
17 generations to come.
18 Thank you for listening.
19 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
20 very much, Mr. Johnson. We appreciate your coming
21 forward. I believe the next one I have is Ronny
22 Johnson.
23 PRESENTATION BY RONNIE JOHNSON:
24 RONNIE JOHNSON: Hello. My
25 name is Ronny P. Johnson and I'm from Esk'etemc. 206
1 I experienced the power line. I still remember up
2 at number 11 when I was small. I grew up with my
3 grandparents, Henry and Christine, did a lot of
4 hunting in the area, and with them my part was to
5 bring food after the haying was done.
6 I remember when the power line
7 came through and I could hear the chain saws, the
8 helicopters, the machinery. I got to see the area
9 before it went through. It looks a lot better
10 than what it does now. And, like my brother said
11 earlier, it is noisy.
12 But I remember nothing stopping
13 my grandfather. They put a corner post, four
14 corner posts, and if you look at that fence, my
15 grandfather went right at the line, looked after
16 his horses, and he didn't have no ponies. It was
17 a way of life for him.
18 I remember when we were coming
19 back from the fields and a helicopter landed
20 beside us, the horses didn't get scared. The guy
21 got out of the helicopter and my grandfather got
22 off the wagon and went and talk with them.
23 I don't know, maybe what he
24 asked was too much. He just laughed at him, but
25 he asked for something. I found out later he 207
1 asked for hydro to be put into his cabin. And
2 growing up in that area, comparing it to Little
3 Dog I wonder if it's going to be the same. I
4 witnessed yesterday what it can be like. What's
5 going to be left from the road we walked?
6 That one we left later on,
7 there was a road in there, is that what it's going
8 to be like even more? I hunted down there with my
9 father and Percy Blue and Morris. I didn't know
10 then -- when I first went across there, my
11 daughter was with me.
12 I remember my daughter looking
13 out that window, looking down at the cuts, you
14 could hear her voice say something about "it's
15 grandmother's cabin was down there", and there's
16 something about the -- right now, like they
17 said -- February 20th, in that area, Irvine
18 Johnson came down with a boat and my brother, he's
19 being looked after at the village right now, but
20 he was on the boat that came down, and I was
21 walking away.
22 I brought my nephew down there
23 to catch the boat. I was walking away and I
24 thought to myself, I can't do this. I have to
25 stay one night just to have coffee with my 208
1 brother. He was on the boat. And I never been on
2 the river with him before in my life. But there
3 was opportunity to have coffee with him.
4 I tell you, that was the best
5 time I ever had coffee with my brother right
6 beside the river. And it was -- it was special
7 there. But, yeah, before they left I told my
8 brother, I want to hear you singing when you go
9 by. When they pass by they were singing and it
10 was wonderful. They were singing row, row, row
11 your boat. It was something to hear from my
12 brother.
13 But today it's his birthday and
14 he's 72 years old.
15 And I want to thank you for
16 listening. All I got to say.
17 CHIEF ROBBINS: Mr. Chair,
18 we'll move up Frank Robbins. I believe Travis
19 Duncan isn't here.
20 PRESENTATION BY FRANK ROBBINS:
21 FRANK ROBBINS: Frank Robbins,
22 Esk'etemc councillor.
23 First of all, I'd like to thank
24 all the Chiefs, elders and the Panel for being
25 here today to listen to what little things I have 209
1 to say here about the mining coming in here.
2 I want explain a little bit
3 about my life and this land that I call home here,
4 and how much I love this land and, you know, I'm a
5 native dancer and I'm a strong believer in my
6 culture and medicines.
7 I learned to fish. I learned
8 to hunt. I learned the big medicines from my mom
9 and dad here in this land. We used to go fishing
10 down river, the long trail, sheep trail, but I'll
11 call it Peter Jimmy trail, but I remember camping
12 out there three weeks of the year right where the
13 power line's going.
14 So we camped there and dried
15 fish and preserved our fish there. And that's one
16 area there, and just across the river there,
17 there's another place we used to fish and hunt
18 there. And, you know, we pick our medicines all
19 over at Blackstone and the access roads that are
20 in place there, you know. It's so phenomenal how
21 easy you can get in there.
22 I remember my mom and dad used
23 to go and I guess some of the elders used to go
24 pick medicines. There's no roads up there. They
25 used to use horses to pick medicine. Now there's 210
1 a big road and we went up there to pick medicine
2 there and, you know, we seen all the hunters, the
3 campers, travel trailers. We even saw a guide
4 outfitter with trailers loaded with horses and,
5 you know, that's how accessible that is. And like
6 when my dad worked in the 60's you could see
7 thousand's and thousand's of deer, now we're
8 lucking you bring home one.
9 You know, that's how accessible
10 these roads are, and if these power lines coming
11 in, you know, and it's coming through our
12 territory, way back in, I guess, way back in the
13 sixties and early summers we stopped.
14 We managed to stop a gas line
15 from going through here and we're hoping we can do
16 the same with this power line. We have all kind
17 of burial sites right where the power line's
18 going. And I don't think any of my people here in
19 Alkali goes in Williams Lake and drives around the
20 cemetery, but you guys can come in our territory,
21 take up our burial grounds and drive right
22 through. We respect us and, you know, I hope you
23 guys somehow learn to respect us. My dad taught
24 me a lot about hunting and fishing.
25 My dad was in World War 211
1 unintelligible). He fought for our freedom and
2 land and yet we're still fighting for it. They're
3 fighting our own people for it and now my son's in
4 the military. He went to Afghanistan, fought for
5 our freedom and yet we don't have it.
6 We even had movie stores come
7 to our land. We had movies made on our land. We
8 had 13th Warrior made on our land. That's all
9 made on our land.
10 And we had Antonio Banderas
11 come to our land. And Antonio Banderas said if he
12 had his way he'd build his house here where it's
13 so peaceful and free and untouched and yet that
14 untouched, free land, with the pipe line and
15 everything, that's not looking too good.
16 We trust -- you know, you heard
17 somebody talking about trust earlier. That's
18 something I -- it's hard for me to do right now.
19 You guys are sitting here listening to each and
20 every one of us speak and, you know, you sit here
21 and listen, it's different. But you gotta hear
22 us.
23 My dad said one time, you know,
24 the non-Natives I imagine they don't go home and
25 sleep, you know, they plan. They go home and plan 212
1 on something. They go plan what they going to do
2 tomorrow, do tomorrow to our land, our people.
3 That is starting to become reality to me. I'm
4 starting to think about that.
5 You know, tonight you guys
6 going to go home. You want to go home early, but
7 you're not going to go home and sleep. You're
8 going to be figuring out what you're going to do
9 tomorrow, what you're going to say, do, about that
10 pipe line that's going to go through. That's hard
11 for us to think about these things.
12 Anyways, you know, my dad owns
13 a piece of land across the river right close to
14 where the power line's going, IR16 known as "river
15 camp". We go under the there. We camp there, and
16 we fish there and my dad used to have a cabin and
17 a barn there and some idiot came and burned it
18 down.
19 I worry about this pipe line
20 going through. I think about Prosperity, all the
21 material and everything that's going to come out
22 of it. Like I was saying, I can go from Cache
23 Creek to Merritt and one time in the sixties you
24 can see that lake on top -- I see boats, fisherman
25 there, people camped around that lake. You go by 213
1 that lake it's a big, blue mess where that mine is
2 up in there. What do you call that mine now?
3 That Island Copper Valley Mine, whatever it is.
4 It's going to be hard for the kids to come and
5 hunt. They're going to be hunting, come home and
6 say have you seen the big hole in the ground over
7 there? Nothing nice to see, but that's how it's
8 going to be when things start happening and, you
9 know, a lot of us here might not be around to see
10 the effect and the damage. Our youth and children
11 are going to be the ones.
12 That's all I have to say, and I
13 have more stuff to say, but we only got a few
14 minutes to talk about our life stories and all the
15 things we want to talk about, but we're only
16 given -- like I'm getting a signal to wrap it up,
17 and, you know, you want us to tell our life
18 stories and the effect and everything that's going
19 to happen within a few minutes. That's kind of
20 silly for me.
21 Like somebody was saying, I
22 could sit here two hours telling stories. That's
23 how government runs I guess. Government works,
24 gives us time limits on everything. I don't think
25 that's really fair. 214
1 All I have to say now because
2 I'm getting a signal here wrap it up or shut up or
3 whatever it was, but thank you.
4 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
5 very much, Councillor Robbins. Next I have is
6 Lynn Chelsea.
7 CHIEF ROBBINS: Edward Kejick.
8 PRESENTATION BY EDWARD KEJICK:
9 MR. KEJICK: Hello. My name is
10 Edward Kejick. I'm not from this area. I'm
11 Anishnawabe, and I'm from Dryden, Ontario.
12 I first came here to Esk'etemc
13 when I was 8 and I had bad asthma at the time,
14 couldn't even walk up a little hill without losing
15 my breath. But after a few weeks of living here I
16 outgrew my asthma.
17 I was taken in as a grandson by
18 Theresa Paul and now this is my home. I don't
19 agree with this transmission line because I enjoy
20 going out on the land to hunt and going down to
21 the river to fish, and I'm one of those people who
22 would rather eat our traditional foods than the
23 food we buy in town.
24 Being down at the river makes
25 me feel good about myself because I'm able to have 215
1 fun, provide food for my family and stay active.
2 Same goes for hunting. I love that an adrenaline
3 rush you get when you see the deer drop right
4 after you shoot them.
5 I have a lot of great memories
6 when it comes to hunting and fishing. When I'm
7 older I want to be able to show my kids and grand
8 kids the area, like showing them the rivers so
9 they can fish, showing them the hunting sites so
10 they can hunt, the berries and the medicines so
11 they can cleanse their bodies, let them know they
12 can live off the land and not always depend on
13 grocery stores.
14 There are a lot of us who
15 really depend on these resources. That's pretty
16 much it.
17 I would like to thank the
18 community of Esk'etemc for allowing me to be here
19 and for sharing the knowledge that I've learned.
20 Also the rest of you, thank you for your time.
21 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
22 very much, Mr. Kejick. I'm not sure, Chief
23 Robbins, whether we have Lynn Chelsea or Beverley
24 Chelsea.
25 CHIEF ROBBINS: Lynn. 216
1 PRESENTATION BY LYNN CHELSEA:
2 LYNN CHELSEA: Good afternoon,
3 my name is Lynn Chelsea. I'm the daughter of
4 Morris and Shirley Chelsea and grand daughter of
5 Anastasia and Patrick Chelsea.
6 I was raised on the
7 transmission line, and that's where we get our
8 mule dear and moose dear when we're lucky at those
9 times. The population is severely going away.
10 It's moving north, I've noticed, and I know the
11 transmission line just isn't down at the Little
12 Dog area near Wycott Flats, it's within both of
13 those areas. I know that it starts from the power
14 lines up toward 11. I know it runs all the way
15 through Joe's Lake Road all the way down to Dog
16 Creek Road. I know that those areas provide so
17 much food for my family.
18 I survive up there and that's
19 where my livelihood comes. I was taught to
20 survive in those lands. I went to survival camp
21 in those lands. My parents passed on traditions
22 of culture and heritage for me to know what to eat
23 and how to survive.
24 My parents, during survival
25 camp they dropped me off out there in a truck with 217
1 my brothers and sisters and they told us you have
2 to find your way home. We found our way home that
3 night, eight hours after. We walked back Joe's
4 Lake Road and my dad brought us back out there.
5 He says there's a faster way you can get home. He
6 showed us the way home. We were home within 30
7 minutes before he dropped us off. I never did get
8 lost after that. I know exactly where I am.
9 When you guys talk about the
10 transmission line and how close it is to the
11 Esk'etemc resources, I know what those resources
12 are because I was taught well. I know how to gut
13 a fish and dry it and jar it and make it so that
14 it's edible to my son.
15 This is my son. His name is
16 Seth, and we've been training him for years since
17 the day he was born. He prefers to eat this
18 traditional food and you guys are killing it on
19 us.
20 I know the family lands and the
21 burial sites out there. My dad talks about the
22 whole entire transmission line and it's going
23 through my family's burial sites. I don't want to
24 see them desecrated. I don't want to see anymore
25 people get hurt, but that's my family out there 218
1 you're hurting. I'm being a victim of money. I
2 work. I make money. Yes, I know that. But a
3 victim of the elements that's supposed to provide
4 us food is not right.
5 I know there's more mines back
6 there that the province accepted. I know
7 Blackdome's over there. I've been back there a
8 couple weeks ago and that place has no trees.
9 Last year that place was covered in trees. I know
10 it seems like it's nothing now. I took pictures
11 of it. I have pictures of it on the camera. I
12 have pictures of it at work.
13 I also know the forest fires
14 that have been happening and how they've been
15 moved. There's a forest fire in Dog Creek. How
16 weird is that that after the Prosperity Panel got
17 rejected that a forest fire happened in Dog Creek?
18 One happened on Enterprise Road, and now the
19 animals are moving towards the community and
20 towards Williams Lake.
21 There's more deer on Williams
22 Lake highway, on Dog Creek Road, than there is in
23 the bush. The animals are moving because they're
24 forced to move because of the fires and the trails
25 are diminishing and they're getting lost. 219
1 I also know of things to do
2 when I am out there. I fish for me and my son. I
3 just finished catching enough fish for me and my
4 son and other families in this community and in
5 Canoe.
6 My family range is all the way
7 from Canoe to Dog Creek and here. My family is
8 very large. I know the pollution from the mine is
9 very large and it's airborne.
10 I've seen mines where the
11 pollutions sits on the trees and they're just
12 white. There's nothing left there. The people
13 are getting sick.
14 I notice that people in our
15 community are getting sicker. I know they're
16 getting stressed out and tired. I talk to people
17 a lot, some people say I talk too much, but this
18 is what I've noticed in the last few years since
19 Prosperity was rejected the first time and this
20 time I hope it's rejected again, because that's
21 where I live.
22 I live where the transmission
23 line is going. I know where that line is. Thank
24 you.
25 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you 220
1 very much, Ms. Chelsea for your moving, articulate
2 and helpful stories. This would be Beverley
3 Chelsea-Hutchinson.
4 PRESENTATION BY BEVERLEY CHELSEA-HUTCHINSON:
5 MS. CHELSEA-HUTCHINSON: Good
6 afternoon, everyone. My name is Beverley Grace
7 Chelsea-Hutchinson.
8 I'm here to speak how we need a
9 traditional territory to survive and how the 125
10 kilometres proposed transmission line will have
11 adverse effects in Esk'etemc.
12 I'm 29, married and I have two
13 children. This is my 11 year old son, Deacon
14 Hutchinson, and I have a 7 year old daughter,
15 Kiana.
16 I come from two large families
17 and one side of my family comes from(Native word),
18 a family from across the river from river camp
19 across from Little Dog where the transmission line
20 will cross.
21 I just recently learned this
22 history. I a blessed to further understand the
23 values of culture and tradition. I grew up in a
24 community where our traditions were already in
25 jeopardy. 221
1 Now that I have a family I'm
2 teaching my children, to the best of my ability,
3 about our people. I have already received the
4 questions from my kids of where we come from
5 because the world we live in they don't know where
6 they hail from. I tell them we're from here.
7 I asked my son to be here with
8 me and explained to him our hunting and fishing on
9 our traditional territory is important to us and
10 how we have rights to do both and survive and he
11 understands.
12 My daughter is next in line to
13 learn more from her parents and other relatives in
14 Esk'etemc. She already comes for rides to see
15 where we hunt and fish. She can tell you where
16 her dad shot his deer last year is around where
17 it's proposed the line goes through.
18 My daughter has been to the
19 Fraser River. She can walk down to the river and
20 back up now. I am telling you this because I'm
21 going to continue to fill them with the knowledge
22 that I received.
23 Some more of my background. I
24 recently graduated from the British Columbia
25 Institute of Technology and I have a diploma in 222
1 Sustainable Resource Management. The proposed
2 transmission line is going through our traditional
3 territory which is also going in the treaty
4 process, there's also a high mule deer winter
5 range.
6 It will effect the bunch grass
7 climatic zone, in which there is only two percent
8 in British Columbia. The Taseko line is proposed
9 to run over one of our valuable fishing spots,
10 Little Dog.
11 The mine will run through our
12 hunting spots across the Fraser and the camp from
13 where I come from. Where this line is proposed
14 it's on our hunting area close to home. We don't
15 have to travel far, are able to go fishing and get
16 a deer and these two species support us. They get
17 us through the year. Nothing has changed for
18 food. We have used this land before the settlers.
19 My husband, who is an avid
20 hunter, is teaching me and our son how to hunt and
21 he will teach our daughter. Where I shot my first
22 deer is where the line is proposed. Where my son
23 shot his first deer is where the line is proposed.
24 And this line will open up our hunting areas
25 making the area easily accessible for the public 223
1 to hunt.
2 Not only hunters will effect
3 the deer migration but the wolves as well and
4 these predators will change their migration
5 patterns. If the deer move, then we have to move
6 from the area. This is not an option.
7 I should not have to change my
8 ways for anything anymore. Little Dog, not only
9 will Taseko effect the hunting but fishing as
10 well. Our community has three fishing spots in
11 the river.
12 We're already limited on our
13 community and now we do want to be limited by one
14 less fishing spot.
15 This year was my son's first
16 year packing salmon up the river. Now he's eager
17 to dip net with his father because it's time for
18 him to experience the exhilarating skill other
19 natives must know. And the transmission line
20 going over Little Dog shouldn't be an option.
21 This area is sacred. I enjoy
22 being on the land, and I don't want to be out
23 there where the public will see me and my son with
24 our, with what we catch out there and then have
25 disrespectful people passing by while we're 224
1 praying to the creator for everything he's given
2 us. There alternate routes where this line should
3 be moved.
4 Our culture is not cheap, so
5 why not move the transmission line in an alternate
6 route? I'm not going to lose who I am. My
7 children are not going to be assimilated further.
8 They're going to know how to stand up for
9 Aboriginal rights because our generation are going
10 to be role models.
11 The cost for the mine to do so
12 is drastically cheaper than the lives of our
13 people. For us fishing and hunting is not a
14 recreation, it's a way of life.
15 Thank you for your time, and
16 please make an imminent choice for Aboriginal
17 rights, culture and traditions.
18 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
19 very much, Ms. Chelsea-Hutchinson. Charlie Harry.
20 PRESENTATION BY CHARLIE HARRY:
21 MS. HARRY: My name is Charlie
22 Harry. I'm Esk'etemc. I lived here all my life.
23 I was raised up here. We was talking about land
24 earlier. When you talk about land from what I
25 understand you're talking about everything. 225
1 You're talking about hunting, talking about
2 fishing and talking about trapping.
3 Everything's out there for us,
4 the medicines, we got medicines off the trees to
5 use when we get sick. And the berries -- there
6 are other medicines you can use. We have herbs we
7 use, as was said earlier.
8 Now yesterday all of you had a
9 chance to experience an area down by Little Dog,
10 and that area where you were standing over the
11 Fraser River and you look to the right, that's
12 what we call Little Dog, and for long years -
13 generations - we hunted that right from Little Dog
14 maybe 10 miles up the river. That was a hunting
15 territory.
16 Mainly we hunt deer, where the
17 deer was -- I did a lot of hunting with my dad as
18 a youth. Sometimes we come home with nothing, and
19 you know what that means, no food. I started out
20 at an early age hunting.
21 Me and Franky and all my age
22 used to go hunt down there when I was 14 or 15
23 years old. We learned at an early age hunting for
24 food, it's part of our survival.
25 Same with fishing, fish down at 226
1 Little Dog area, not too far from where we was
2 yesterday. Fishing was done by generations and
3 generations. I learned by my dad, my uncle how to
4 fish. I was already a man when I was 15 years
5 old. That's when I start working. When I was 15
6 I was already a man. Nobody showed me how to run
7 a chain saw. I learned on my own.
8 For many years before I had a
9 great grandfather that talked about this. I used
10 to go fishing with him when I was about 8. I
11 learned what you have to do when you start
12 fishing, and that's gathering wood. We didn't
13 have what we have today. Today we have, you know,
14 Pepsi. We didn't have Pepsi. All we had was
15 coffee and tea.
16 And that transmission line goes
17 through here what's going to happen. I got a
18 question for you: How come the ducks get rights
19 and we don't? Pretend your grandmother was a
20 native like me, create fishing in your mind, if
21 your grandmother was going to put land, or put a
22 transmission line on there and you was there --
23 same thing with the ducks, ducks have their rights
24 because the government, you know, they take it
25 all. Why couldn't we have our rights? This is my 227
1 first time here. Those poachers, I was just
2 learning and a lot of what we have, our meat we
3 have today, we shared. Shared a deer. Shared a
4 moose. We shared a fish. People -- I took
5 Francis Johnson down there in '95. I took him. I
6 carried his fish for him, 30 fish, and I had my
7 own fish to carry up. I always remember that. I
8 don't know if he remembers it, but he was pretty
9 young.
10 But all this hunting and
11 fishing we shared with one another. If you don't
12 get your sharing there's gotta be some around.
13 My dad, my dad was Antoine. In
14 1934 he was on a championship team in Mission,
15 1934. And he was Antoine. That's his name. He
16 changed his name somewhere in the fifties when he
17 got married. The government changed his name.
18 They'll tell you. Willard will tell you. He was
19 a Johnson before his name got changed. Probably
20 other people got names that were changed too.
21 I'm really against this, really
22 against it. People that couldn't make it up here,
23 I'm going to represent them. Thank you.
24 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
25 very much, Mr. Harry. I think at this time we'll 228
1 take a short break and return in 10 minutes.
2 We'll return in 5 minutes.
3 --- Recess taken at 5:09 p.m.
4 --- Upon resuming at 5:14 p.m.
5 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Good
6 afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I would like to
7 resume.
8 And just before we go to the
9 next speaker, I indicated to Mr. Gustafson this
10 morning that I would attempt to respond to his
11 request this afternoon, and we are comfortable
12 affording you several days of time from the
13 receipt of any new technical documents to respond
14 to us and -- yeah.
15 With that as our plan, that
16 will possibly, probably entail an extension past
17 the closing remarks for any response by you to new
18 technical documents received.
19 In terms of the sequence for
20 the rest of day, when this list is done -- and
21 that would include comments from any further
22 speakers -- any further speakers including your
23 own closing comments, which we would like to wrap
24 up shortly after six -- then we'll turn, as our
25 procedures allow, to Taseko, for its response to 229
1 today.
2 I will then provide closing
3 comments which will be very short, I promise, and
4 then of course we will turn back to you for our
5 closing ceremony.
6 So that's the timing, and you
7 can adjust your speakers as you see if it, Chief
8 Robbins, that's okay.
9 In that case, let me move onto
10 Alexis Harry. Mr. Harry, go ahead.
11 PRESENTATION BY ALEXIS HARRY:
12 MR. HARRY: (Native word).
13 (Unintelligible) spiritual medicine.
14 I come here today to express
15 what I learned about the mine. I was the
16 unfortunate sole that was fired from Mount Polley
17 mine after the Panel has spoke at, and that way of
18 life was taken away from me.
19 So speaking where the power
20 line goes through. In our traditional hunting
21 ground where I grew up as a six- or seven-year old
22 boy with Johnson, David Johnson, Charlie Antoine,
23 Charlie Antoine, no later Charlie Antoine Harry,
24 Katherine Harry. Those were my grandparents. My
25 parents are Selena Dan Harry. My deceased dad is 230
1 Alec Antoine Harry.
2 I saw the damage first hand on
3 any mine, whatever you say. I speak with the
4 truth of what I saw and what I know.
5 The damage that it done where I
6 seen a mountain of the size of what you see here
7 where we sit in the middle of, turned over. Where
8 I seen garbage being buried, packed down the
9 dozers, that impact it has.
10 The power line, I only have a
11 little bit of knowledge on the destruction that it
12 does, destruction that it did to the hunting areas
13 that I hunted and the hunting areas that I've gone
14 and I've taken my sons.
15 I got 11 children; nine boys,
16 three girls, three adopted boys. I got six
17 grandchildren. My heart's never changed from what
18 I spoke to the Panel when they first came here to
19 this land. We welcomed you under this land
20 through Simon Fraser to the first white settlers.
21 We only welcomed you here.
22 Our way of life is not easy.
23 We used to catch 400 salmon in one night off our
24 both of our rocks in Little Dog Creek and the
25 place we call The Point. Now we can get 400 231
1 salmon for the whole summer.
2 I myself never caught no salmon
3 this year because there are elders that need the
4 salmon, so I choose not to take none.
5 I'm in devine of myself. I'm
6 in devine of self. My spirituality brought me
7 there. My spirituality of going up to the
8 mountain where the eagle carried me over this
9 land. My name is to protector of the land, and to
10 this day that's what I will do. I will not stand
11 down. I will not back down from what you propose
12 of this power line that goes through our
13 territory, our lands, my children's land, my great
14 grandchildren's land, the great, great
15 grandchildren of my children.
16 When you affect my way of life
17 the way I have to live and the way that
18 grandfather lived and the way my children will
19 have to live, my final stand affects you, your way
20 of life.
21 If we found oil or gold in your
22 backyard, my question to you, to the Panel, to
23 Taseko: Would I be able to go there and extract
24 that gold and that oil, or the oil? I know your
25 final answer. But I ask it anyways. And you were 232
1 asking me, you are asking I, our people to do what
2 you say is possible for you.
3 Everything you say is possible
4 only to you.
5 My final words to you, to
6 Taseko, to the Panel, is that in the last Panel I
7 said I will die to protect this land. I will
8 traditionally and spiritually prepare myself to
9 walk forward to protect the lands of the children
10 of the Secwepemc Nation. My heart has never
11 changed. My heart will never change. And I thank
12 you for taking the time to be here.
13 I thank you, Taseko, for having
14 the time which you gave today. I pray to my God,
15 to your God, to the Gods of this land that you use
16 the knowledge that you gained with our people
17 through our people. I do understand why I will do
18 what I have to do. And I thank you for your time.
19 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
20 very much, Mr. Harry.
21 Charlie Johnson.
22 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah.
23 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Go right
24 ahead.
25 PRESENTATION BY CHARLIE JOHNSON: 233
1 CHARLIE JOHNSON: I don't know
2 where to start. Horses up in that area, right
3 from here to down towards Dog Creek. I kind of
4 get lost without. It's too much logging out
5 there. I could tell you talk about hunting,
6 fishing, being long time since I started fishing
7 down Little Dog. People are 47 years, I'm just
8 guessing, told me talk about the rocks where we
9 fish, and this is the earliest I can remember down
10 Little Dog when I was a little kid and was tied up
11 so we don't fall in the river, and there's two big
12 rocks down there. We did a little hunting down
13 there too. That's when I was small.
14 And I was told I should talk
15 about when I go down there to visit the river. I
16 don't know why, but I figured there was something
17 down there I want to visit. I visited every year.
18 This year I visited through the middle
19 (Unintelligible).
20 I listened to the stories about
21 down there where our people used to live and fish.
22 I didn't know what else to tell you, in which
23 chase horses through there every year as long as I
24 can remember . That's all I have to say.
25 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you 234
1 very much, Mr. Johnson.
2 PRESENTATION BY GORD CHIPMAN:
3 MR. CHIPMAN: Hello. My name
4 is Gord Chipman, and I'm a professional forester
5 and I work for Alkali Resource Management here in
6 Esk'etemc. I also manage a logging company called
7 Echo Lake Forest Services. So I'm going to give
8 you a little different talk here in the next four
9 minutes and fifty-seconds.
10 I have over 20 years of
11 experience working in the forest industry here in
12 the Cariboo and I've personally planned, designed,
13 supervised the construction of over 500 kilometres
14 of roads here in the Cariboo. And I've also
15 managed the harvesting of well over 15,000
16 hectares of land. I've a lot of experience here
17 the Cariboo, and I support responsible sustainable
18 development. Get that right. I'm not against
19 development at all.
20 Now, Alkali Resource Management
21 manages and supports (muffled) that are owned by
22 the Esk'etemc, and this year we plan to harvest
23 over 100,000 cubic meters which covers 700
24 hectares of land. We plan on building over 30
25 kilometres of roads this year. 235
1 Our logging company, Echo Lake,
2 is one of the best logging companies working for
3 Toppo Industries (ph), and last year Echo Lake
4 harvested over 150,000 cubic meters. We are
5 active. 150,000 cubic meters is equivalent to
6 about 2500 truckloads, 2,500 truckloads. We're a
7 pretty active group. And right now we have the
8 bragging rights for -- of all the logging
9 contractors, about 25 that work for Toppo
10 Industries in Williams Lake. We have the bragging
11 rights for being the precision logger for the
12 year, for the year 2012, 2013.
13 So we're not just a bunch of
14 redneck logger. We're pretty progressive here in
15 Esk'etemc.
16 Now, one of the other things
17 that we do that we have here, one of our jewels of
18 our 10 years that we have is the community forest.
19 This community forest it covers
20 30,000 hectares -- over 30,000 hectares in size.
21 The location of the community forest basically
22 starts at Little Dog where we were yesterday and
23 goes all the way north up to where the pavement
24 starts. So we have quite a large community forest
25 and it goes from the hydro transmission line all 236
1 the way to the Fraser River. It covers a lot of
2 community forest.
3 Now, the issue that I have
4 right now is regards to the fact that the power
5 lines been proposed to go through the southern end
6 of the community forest, and this power line
7 crosses areas that must be covered by forest.
8 The reason being is the use of
9 this area is called mule deer winter range. And
10 also there's some other areas called old growth
11 management areas. The intent of those areas is to
12 always be forested. The intent of mule deer
13 winter ranges, the intent of old growth
14 managements areas were never to have power lines
15 go through them.
16 That is very important. Those
17 two land use classifications are very important to
18 the Cariboo-Chilcotin land use plan, which I hope
19 you are familiar with. It was a large plan that
20 was developed here in the Cariboo in the late
21 nineties, mid-nineties, and it's very important to
22 us.
23 My concern -- so that's the
24 issue. My concern is that the mine will be given
25 the green light, go ahead, and then the 237
1 transmission line will be treated like an
2 afterthought. I'm concerned that whoever plans
3 the final location of the transmission line will
4 just draw a straight line from east to west, go
5 from wherever the substation is going to be on the
6 main power line, the main transmission line, and
7 just go straight west toward wherever the mine is
8 going to be.
9 And right now it seems to be
10 the process that's taken place so far.
11 As a professional forester, as
12 a manager, as someone that is developed over 500
13 kilometres of road, that's just crazy. It's just
14 crazy talk.
15 There's one thing I want to
16 clarify. Looking at the notes and how the Panel
17 (muffled) things have happened here over the last
18 month, on July 31st there was some discussion with
19 regards to the aspects of the power line and the
20 conversation between the Panel and Taseko.
21 The conversation that was
22 discussed -- and I wasn't there -- was regarding
23 conversations that we had, Alkali Resource
24 Management, had the Taseko with regards to the
25 power line. And I want to make it clear that in 238
1 the conversations that we had, we had three
2 different occasions where we talked to them.
3 At no time did we resolve any
4 of the issues with the power line. Conversations
5 were started but they were not concluded.
6 If this project gets the go
7 ahead, they are going to have to do something
8 about that. We're going to have to resolve the
9 impacts of the community forest, impacts to what
10 we want to do in the community forest and the
11 impacts....
12 I want to offer up an
13 alternative. As a manager, as someone that is
14 approved or applied for road permits and cutting
15 permits, I've done this a lot and I know that in
16 my 20-year career I've learned that there is more
17 than one way to come up with solutions to what
18 some people might see as problem. There's more
19 than one way. If there is a will, there is a way.
20 And I hope there is one way that the Panel can
21 induce a will to change the location of the power
22 line.
23 If the power line must be
24 located so close to Esk'etemc here, I suggest that
25 there is alternative routes. For instance, one 239
1 route that comes to my mind which already has
2 access to the power line, is just north of us
3 here, it's still within the community forest, it's
4 along an area called the Place Lake Road. Now
5 when you drive out of here tonight, which you go
6 north, Place Lake Road is where the road
7 construction is happening right now.
8 So it's a straight road, it
9 goes east and west, straight to the power line.
10 And I did some math on it. I figured out, well,
11 if the power line went there what would that mean?
12 It would reduce the amount of
13 transmission line that would have to be
14 constructed. And, as a matter of fact, it would
15 cover a lot less controversial ground. It would
16 be able to cross a river in a place where it's not
17 covered by sacred land, where there is not a lot
18 of fishing sites.
19 There are some other solutions,
20 and a strongly encourage the Panel do what you can
21 to request Taseko to consider other solutions and
22 have a different will so we can find a different
23 way.
24 That concludes what I wanted to
25 say. And thank you for your time. 240
1 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you,
2 Mr. Chip. Because of what you have said, there
3 may some questions that would be forthcoming, so
4 I'm sorry, Chief Robbins, but it might be helpful.
5 Taseko? Sorry, first anyone
6 else? Taseko?
7 MS. GIZIKOFF: Thank you. We
8 do.
9 I understand in the essence of
10 time we need to be quick to allow other community
11 members, but because of Mr. Chipman's statement
12 just now with regards to another recommendation
13 and because it was a Panel's recommendation the
14 last time as well, I think it prudent we ask a
15 couple questions, if you don't mind.
16 I do have a map of the
17 community forest. Would you mind if I just pop
18 that onto the screen because you referred to it?
19 MR. CHIPMAN: That's good.
20 MS. GIZIKOFF: Mr. Chipman, can
21 you confirm -- this is roughly the boundary of the
22 Esk'etemc community forest.
23 MR. CHIPMAN: Yes, that is the
24 boundary of the community forest as it is today.
25 MS. GIZIKOFF: The previous 241
1 Panel recommendation was to look at moving the
2 transmission line to the south of the community
3 forest, correct?
4 MR. CHIPMAN: I don't know what
5 the recommendation was.
6 MS. GIZIKOFF: I think it was
7 but --
8 MR. CHIPMAN: I wanted it to
9 get out of the community forest to go south, but
10 we never did conclude those -- during our
11 conversation.
12 MS. GIZIKOFF: And correct me
13 if I'm wrong, but we were talking about it was
14 without leadership present. It was just us
15 speaking.
16 MR. CHIPMAN: Yes.
17 MS. GIZIKOFF: It was not
18 ratified by a leadership. But we are talking
19 about potentially the transmission line south, but
20 that puts it into the grasslands and there was
21 some other issues associated with that with
22 regards to weed and access. And one item that we
23 talked about that didn't conclude was potentially
24 putting it through existing disturbance in that
25 area. 242
1 MR. CHIPMAN: Yeah, we talked
2 about that. We talked about not having any access
3 there at all, getting rid of all the rules in that
4 area.
5 MS. GIZIKOFF: Could you just
6 point out where it is that you have recommended
7 that we --
8 MR. CHIPMAN: Yes. So here's
9 our transmission line, the main transmission line
10 that exists, straight line there, goes that
11 direction. The Place Lake Road goes east/west
12 right here. So it's an existing road, it's a --
13 highway's road right now, and it would not create
14 new access to old growth management areas,
15 wouldn't create access through mule deer winter
16 range.
17 MS. GIZIKOFF: But then from
18 there --
19 MR. CHIPMAN: From there, go
20 right down in this direction here across this
21 direction. Make way, connect up where this is
22 here. It just avoids all this controversy that
23 we're talking about.
24 MS. GIZIKOFF: Thank you for
25 your suggestion. Without having the information 243
1 at my fingertips, can't comment on the other old
2 growth management area. The mule deer winter
3 range there is no --
4 MR. CHIPMAN: This is winter
5 range, but this area right here -- the reason why
6 it's not community forest because this is
7 grassland.
8 MS. GIZIKOFF: So it would go
9 through grassland.
10 MR. CHIPMAN: Yes.
11 MS. GIZIKOFF: Private land?
12 MR. CHIPMAN: Yes.
13 MS. GIZIKOFF: You are aware
14 that a third of the rare and endangered species in
15 the province does rely on grassland for --
16 MR. CHIPMAN: At the same time
17 Esk'etemc don't eat rare and endangered species.
18 MS. GIZIKOFF: Okay. Just a
19 couple more questions. It's getting late.
20 With regards to your forestry
21 experience and old growth management areas, have
22 you had any experience in putting old growth
23 management areas back into that designation for
24 the province?
25 MR. CHIPMAN: No. 244
1 MS. GIZIKOFF: The old growth
2 management areas do apply to the forest sector,
3 but the mining industry is now embarking upon
4 putting additional old growth management areas
5 back into that designation should we, through our
6 processes, have any impact on them, because old
7 growth management areas do develop over time as
8 well, correct, with age?
9 MR. CHIPMAN: Yeah.
10 MS. GIZIKOFF: For (muffled)
11 winter range, you're familiar with the GAR (ph)
12 Order process of doing compensation for any
13 disturbance in the (muffled) winter range areas?
14 MR. CHIPMAN: Yes.
15 MS. GIZIKOFF: Perhaps have you
16 done any of those compensation plans for anything
17 related to the community forest?
18 MR. CHIPMAN: No.
19 MS. GIZIKOFF: Would you be
20 willing to work with us on developing a
21 compensation plan for the (muffled) winter range
22 should the project proceed and have any impact --
23 MR. CHIPMAN: Sure, I would
24 like to hear more what you are thinking. I don't
25 totally get where you are coming from. 245
1 MR. GIZIKOFF: I think it's a
2 requirement by law that that if you do disturb the
3 (muffled) winter range that you have a
4 compensation plan and it maybe, because of the
5 (muffled) anything from planting to thinning or
6 some sort even burning for restoration of another
7 impact of (muffled) winter range area. But in
8 order to not impact any more time, we can have an
9 off-line discussion another time. That's it.
10 MR. KUPFER: Thank you. I have
11 one question, and I have to ask it. I'm sure many
12 people in the room are thinking it also.
13 Has this been discussed with
14 your community? Is this a community proposal?
15 MR. CHIPMAN: No, it's not.
16 MR. KUPFER: Is this a
17 management proposal?
18 MR. CHIPMAN: It's just another
19 way, that's all it in. Just to get thinking.
20 There's many other locations. The area where the
21 transmission line is right now is so
22 controversial, it's probably the most
23 controversial area to pick. If you want to the
24 pick a controversial area, it's probably the
25 worst. 246
1 MR. KUPFER: I think we've
2 heard that.
3 MR. CHIPMAN: Thank you.
4 CHIEF ROBBINS: Can I just add
5 a piece?
6 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Certainly go
7 ahead, Chief Robbins.
8 CHIEF ROBBINS: Let it be here
9 clear. Gord didn't pass this by me, but I just
10 told Gord that right from Place Lake Road, that's
11 the last chance area, there's another site up
12 there where we fast. And right from the sharp
13 corner you can see where the Fraser turns there,
14 kind of has a hook back there. That's where they
15 fast. And that whole area south of it right down
16 to -- just on the other side of (Native word), we
17 call it (Native word), airport, that's all
18 traditional hunting area for the Esk'etemc, or the
19 Secwepemc.
20 And the ranch, that area where
21 Gord was coming across, that's where the ranch is
22 trying to lock us out.
23 So we have issues with the
24 ranch as well because there's many (muffled) --
25 pit house depressions, sites, pictographs all 247
1 along that corridor. I think the only way if you
2 don't want any controversy with that transmission
3 line is just to move it right along the road going
4 out to Alexis Creek along Highway 20, if you don't
5 want any controversy at all, because this whole
6 corridor two miles on each of the Fraser River, is
7 one of the areas that Irvine was talking about, a
8 sacred site that we want to protect through
9 (muffled) tree process, and we expect those lands
10 returned back.
11 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
12 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
13 very much, Mr. Chipman.
14 We appreciate your ideas, and
15 thank you again.
16 Chief Robbins, I'm in your
17 hands.
18 PRESENTATION BY LILY JOHNSON:
19 LILY JOHNSON: Hi. My name is
20 Lily Johnson, J-O-H-N-S-O-N.
21 I wanted to be able to come
22 here and talk about the transmission line area. I
23 remember as little girl going down there and
24 camping on weekends just to go down there and
25 fish, and to this day I still go down to the river 248
1 to fish.
2 And just having the -- thinking
3 that the transmission line would be going in that
4 area would -- it just doesn't sit right with me
5 because that is just taking away or destroying
6 some of the things that I really respect, and one
7 of the things is I really just think about is, you
8 know, all our history.
9 The people that have died down
10 there and are buried down there. I think you know
11 that's one of the things that people don't think
12 about, is those people that passed on that are
13 buried there. They died on the land. And I just
14 want to really make sure that that is stressed
15 here. That -- you know, I don't want that
16 destroyed or the land that they have planned the
17 transmission line.
18 My mother was from the Dog
19 Creek area and my dad from here and I wanted to be
20 able to -- because one of the biggest things I
21 really see is us to prove that we utilized, and we
22 still utilize the area that you are talking about
23 going through.
24 We practice our culture, we
25 practice our traditions on these areas. And I 249
1 think that's really important to say that we still
2 utilize this, and it will always be passed down to
3 the younger generations.
4 As an employee of the band
5 there's two things that I do. One of them is I do
6 the survival camp, and we teach both traditional
7 means of teaching the kids about survival
8 techniques too. If they got lost out there, how
9 to survive out there without -- you know, if they
10 are just living, being able to live out there with
11 whatever resources that are out there.
12 And that's rather using the
13 plants, being able to utilize the medicines that
14 are out there, the water sources that are out
15 there, the animals, and shelters.
16 We also teach a modern means of
17 survival where we get search and rescue to come
18 out and teach them. That's the modern part of the
19 survival camp.
20 The big part I wanted to stress
21 was the traditional teachings of teaching the our
22 kids how to utilize what we have out there. We
23 also do the hunting camp where we teach our kids
24 about the hunting areas and we've the traditional
25 areas that we have and when still utilize out on 250
1 the land.
2 We've never stopped doing it
3 and it's really important that it's said. Last
4 year when we went out to the hunting camp and we
5 only got one moose and one deer. And we're
6 supposed to bring that back to the community and
7 feed the community. And do you think one moose
8 and one deer is going to feed close to 500 people?
9 It's not enough to feed your community.
10 And the reason why we do the
11 camp is that to teach our young people on how to
12 hunt and use whatever is out there and, you know,
13 be able to provide for the community, being able
14 to provide for the families that need it in the
15 community, and you can't even -- you have a hard
16 time teaching when you don't have enough to
17 provide for your community, which is really sad.
18 Because you're trying to teach the kids about
19 utilizing, you know, what can you get out there
20 instead of going to Save-On or Safeway to feed our
21 families.
22 That is a really important
23 teaching that we got from our -- the elders that
24 have -- are gone.
25 As a woman of this community, 251
1 you want to be able to teach, keep teaching the
2 things that we've learned from our elders, and
3 it's really important that we continue to be able
4 to teach what we have out there, and if we can't
5 go out and do it, when you go out there -- last
6 weekend when we had our community gathering and
7 the Labrador tea that we usually utilize in one
8 area, we went out to look out where it was and
9 there was nothing. A lot of our elders use the
10 Labrador tea. Now we have to go out into another
11 area to find it, and it's a little further out.
12 We keep having to go away from
13 the community to utilize things, and if this
14 transmission line comes in, that's what's going to
15 happen. We're going to have to go away from the
16 community, and that's not what we should do. We
17 should be able to utilize what we have here and
18 that would mean nothing in the end.
19 So anyway, I just wanted to be
20 able to stress a couple of those things that we're
21 trying to do here with the youth. Thank you.
22 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you,
23 Ms. Johnson. Those are very helpful for the
24 Panel.
25 Deena Johnson? 252
1 PRESENTATION BY DEENA JOHNSON:
2 DEENA JOHNSON: Deena Johnson,
3 (Native word). My name is Deena Johnson. I am
4 from Alkali Lake. I'm 24 and I spent most of my
5 life on and off the reserve. I have a two-year
6 old daughter named Madison Baptiste, and her
7 father is from Xeni Gwet'in, who is Ricky Dean
8 Baptist.
9 I have had the advantage of
10 seeing Fish Lake, Little Dog and surrounding
11 areas. Being able to see such beautiful places
12 and to attend events such as teaching our
13 families, fishing, hunting, gathering, medicines
14 and berries, are all awesome events. If you guys
15 were there yesterday but you've seen it.
16 Fish are our main resources for
17 our livelihood as First Nation people. It has
18 been our culture since the beginning of time.
19 Deer and moose migration is decreasing since the
20 first transmission line was put in place. Over
21 the time, the area used for hunting fishing and
22 gathering was plentiful, yet now it's depleting.
23 We have seen the change since
24 the first transmission line which worries us
25 because we will be put between two transmission 253
1 lines further backs (muffled) migration routes and
2 habitats. Thus, the winter shelter, breeding
3 grounds, feeding area will be pushed out of our
4 traditional territory. This will affect our
5 constitutional aboriginal rights to hunt, fish and
6 gather foods and medicines.
7 No matter how long, narrow,
8 curved, straight, small the transmission line will
9 be, we have said no to it. Because we have -- we
10 are more worried about the animals lands,
11 medicines, berries and plants that will get
12 demolished.
13 Our fish in Fraser River are
14 already endangered, which will make our lifestyle
15 harder to live on less resources.
16 There's a lot of medicine in
17 the surrounding areas they want to ruin, which is
18 a shame because at times aboriginals would rather
19 have Indian medicine than prescription drugs.
20 And it is rare to have the a
21 shawman (ph) around, so at times in need of
22 medicine we ask the older generation and the
23 elders what we need to heal ourselves.
24 Water is the one -- is one of
25 the main important resources that everyone needs. 254
1 And with the tailings being able to affect the
2 water grounds, animals and plants, why would they
3 take the chance to destroy resources that we, as
4 First Nations, need? We're still using them to
5 this day.
6 This is our second time saying
7 no with the Panel hearing which makes me, as well
8 as others, wonder if they are able to hear us with
9 the money signs in their eyes. Because the mill
10 will create jobs, yet why not invest in other
11 businesses and environmental effects like
12 recycling garbage? Make jobs closer to Williams
13 Lake, like there's a whole mall, Boitano Mall is
14 empty because of Wal-Mart. The government has
15 been building more machines that are taking
16 people's jobs, such as the cashiers in Canadian
17 Tire.
18 We have lost our culture and
19 language due to residential school, but now
20 they're asking for our hunting grounds? Various
21 medicine, plants and fishing spots. It would take
22 our way of life which we are already missing out
23 on because of non-aboriginals hunting, hunters
24 coming into the land. If you look at any reserve
25 there is a shortage of jobs and money, but to 255
1 survive we go hunting and fishing for our food,
2 the money we do get is spent on bills, hydro.
3 If our generation was able to
4 vote on the mine and transmission line, I truly
5 believe they would vote no because this is our
6 way. We were taught to live by our ancestors.
7 As a First Nation lady, I would
8 love to learn our language, culture and tradition
9 so I would be able to teach my daughter and other
10 children our way of life to keep it going strong
11 with many generations forward.
12 Last time I spoke at the Panel
13 hearings, I spoke with my concerns of our future
14 generation. But now that I have a daughter I
15 stand here flat-footed, not able to let any
16 destruction of our territory because no one has
17 the right or authority to take away my daughter's
18 and families' aboriginal rights to gather, hunt,
19 occupy the land and fish on Little Fish Lake or at
20 Little Dog. It inspires me knowing that the
21 different nations will also -- will always have
22 disagreements on territory. But for all of us who
23 stand together against destruction of the land
24 shows the younger generation we can still fight
25 together for our resources and our way of life. 256
1 I disagreed in taking such a
2 chance that may decrease our food supplies and
3 medicine and lands for healing. I want my
4 daughter, along with many other generations, to
5 still be able to use our territory for many years
6 to come.
7 So I say no to the transmission
8 line and the mine, because my daughter is also
9 Xeni Gwet'in, and that's affecting her on that
10 side of her Chilcotin, because it is -- it truly
11 is different cultures. It is different ways. And
12 my daughter, being a part of this band and Xeni
13 Gwet'in, she's learning both ways. She's learning
14 how to respect the land, how the pray for the
15 things she does get, how to think of the positive,
16 and I say no.
17 I've been hearing maybes here,
18 but I say no. You cannot change the transmission
19 line, you cannot put a mine on Little Fish Lake.
20 There is still -- there. I do have experiences
21 but I've been getting told to hurry up. So thank
22 you, I say "no".
23 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you.
24 Your message was pretty clear.
25 CHIEF ROBBINS: Mr. Chair, I 257
1 have a couple people have due to the interest of
2 time, they have agreed to put forward a written
3 submission.
4 I also have the past Chief
5 William Chelsea, who would be willing to speak,
6 and then again, with the essence of time, I throw
7 myself at the Panel's feet.
8 The next submissions are really
9 important to Esk'etemc traditional territory.
10 They have done the research on the land. They
11 have talked with our elders, talked with youth,
12 they have gathered so much information and that is
13 -- Dr. Palmer and Dr. Madere Stewart-Hawawira and
14 then we have....
15 I know what that your time....
16 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: You're
17 managing the time, but -- I mean, you've got to
18 wrap up in 25 minutes. Whatever you like.
19 CHIEF ROBBINS: Are we
20 negotiating here?
21 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Chief
22 Robbins, the difficulty we have is, you've got a
23 bunch of old guys here and we want to be alert
24 tomorrow as we were today, and so that's our
25 concern. 258
1 PRESENTATION BY CHIEF CHELSEA:
2 MR. CHELSEA: My name is
3 William Chelsea. (Unintelligible) four to five I
4 was raised in the area. I went to the residential
5 school. After residential school we moved
6 (unintelligible). If after I got (unintelligible)
7 I made it, I guess, said I was going to learn
8 because I knew across (unintelligible), and I
9 worked there for a while after school.
10 When I moved here. I'm proud
11 to say that I'm probably one of the guys, one of
12 the people besides Dick and Jim Johnson, and my
13 brother Morris that knew every inch of this, what
14 we'll call our area there, in this side of the
15 river.
16 But I do know some areas across
17 that I worked for Riverside and (unintelligible)
18 in this area where there is transmission lines
19 proposed.
20 When we say that we know what
21 we're talking about in this area, I would like to
22 say that from times the past we watch where we're
23 kind of been squeezed from all directions.
24 In 1960 we are hitting another
25 hydro line that came through and (muffled) open up 259
1 more of the place. And then late eighties, early
2 nineties we have two more hydro over there and we
3 fought them there. I just been (unintelligible)
4 just a small band that they in (unintelligible),
5 and they can buy anything they wanted at that
6 time.
7 Now we've got highway
8 development moving in on us there, I guess for
9 some (unintelligible) but we see the
10 (unintelligible) all the time.
11 I guess what we consider ours
12 is other people are just grabbing and taking.
13 Right now looking at when I said we're surrounded
14 by three, four of the biggest ranches in the area
15 and we just got bigger one, biggest one in Canada,
16 just moved in on both sides, and there's Wal-Mart
17 (unintelligible) Lake Ranch, (unintelligible) just
18 south of us. And right next door right down the
19 hill (unintelligible), and spring house ranchers
20 (ph), up little northwest of us there.
21 We're kind of squeezed here and
22 we got (unintelligible), also. What we need I
23 guess is the fight for what we've got left,
24 because it's not that much that we're going get
25 involved. 260
1 And the roads and hydros, like
2 I mentioned what is causing all this development
3 and I say -- transmission line is going to the
4 mine and the road is going to happen there. Just
5 going to open up the places like it did around
6 here. You guys say no, it's not going to, but we
7 seen it. I guess I done some road studies for
8 Riverside and for anyone (ph) that area
9 (unintelligible) and towards (unintelligible).
10 It's going to open up more so, what you are saying
11 it's not going to. It will.
12 I guess I can say now is that
13 this development you are seeing is not going to
14 happen for more -- people come in, they fall in
15 love with the land just by traveling on your
16 mining roads and on your hydro line. They come --
17 after a while. So I don't see where
18 (unintelligible) not going to open up, it will
19 because we seen it in our area there. Thank you.
20 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
21 very much, Chief Chelsea.
22 PRESENTATION BY DR. ANDIE PALMER:
23 MS. PALMER: Greeting Chief
24 Council, all chiefs visiting from other places.
25 Thank you very much, Panel. I 261
1 very much appreciate your old bones, mine too. My
2 name is Andy Palmer I'm an associate professor at
3 the University of Alberta.
4 I've had the honour of working
5 in this community over 25 years ago. My project
6 involved making a record of stories with the
7 Esk'etemc First Nation community members, told in
8 everyday hunting and gathering context as we
9 travelled on the land.
10 As we travelled together I
11 learned that some of the most significant places
12 would evoke extensive comments, including long
13 personal narratives that not only spoke to the
14 general importance of the places we were traveling
15 through, but also served to transmit important
16 teachings about the land, the long-standing
17 connections of people to particular places and
18 resources and hazards to be found in specific
19 places are of continued importance.
20 I found these stories, when
21 told, considered together formed what would be
22 called a map of experience, orally transmitted and
23 maintained across generations. The findings of
24 that research resulted in an earned doctorate in
25 anthropology and was subsequently published in 262
1 peer-reviewed books, maps of experience and
2 created land historic Secwepemc discourage
3 University of Toronto press 2005.
4 A substantial portion of that
5 book documents stories -- very portion of the
6 Secwepemc territory that the proponent now
7 proposes as a route for the proposed power
8 transmission line. The book was formally entered
9 into the record of the proceedings in 2010.
10 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Dr. Palmer,
11 we appreciate you're trying to speed up, but if
12 you wouldn't mind, don't do it by speaking more
13 quickly. That doesn't help because the record
14 can't keep up, nor can I.
15 MS. PALMER: Yes, sir.
16 I'll turn to my allotted maybe
17 three minutes to look now at the ways that
18 everyday lived experience by members of this
19 nation traveling on the land compare and contrast
20 with your own experiences of yesterday.
21 I think it's very important to
22 see that the way that the information was
23 presented to you gentlemen was a very special day
24 where you were privileged to gain information that
25 often would take years. 263
1 First of all, trust would have
2 to be established with people. They would have to
3 be trading partners with you, or you would have to
4 be kin or perhaps someone who is going to marry
5 into the community.
6 So what you were given was the
7 sort of special information that ordinarily would
8 take years and years and years to acquire for a
9 trusted person.
10 So we were all blessed to
11 attend, and very much appreciated, the very
12 special protocols that Chief Redy (ph) and others
13 put into place to ensure that we were able to
14 properly receive that information. We began here
15 at Little Dog Creek and looking towards the river
16 here we were -- we had numerous sites pointed out
17 to us.
18 What the Panel would not have
19 seen, however, was what was over the backside,
20 behind us just across Dog Creek Road. It turns
21 out, there were as many sites of significance as
22 what you saw being point out in the valley below.
23 In fact, any place in this area is rich with
24 stories; stories that are inter-connected, told in
25 hunting and gathering context; and, furthermore, 264
1 told in travel from site to site to site, sites
2 that cross and re-cross the proposed transmission
3 line time and time again such that numerous
4 impacts on a single trip might be encountered.
5 Single-use trips, they aren't
6 part of the game. We have food brought in for us,
7 water, everything. But people still travel
8 expecting to go and get berries and, maybe if they
9 are lucky, see a deer. Maybe in they are lucky,
10 see those medicines that they were expected to
11 bring home. Maybe they would pick up something
12 for the child's sore throat before finally making
13 a circuit.
14 And all this without the
15 privilege of what we had, which was a feeling that
16 we were able to be there with permissions from
17 everyone. And those permissions included people
18 who have grazing rights in the area, a ranch. It
19 turns out that many people traveling in this area
20 already feel under surveillance no matter how good
21 the relationships with the ranchers in the area
22 may be. The feeling that one's right to be in a
23 place is being questioned can only be further
24 exacerbated by further surveillance in the people
25 traveling up and down the line. 265
1 Now, I want to turn to this
2 very special place just across which you did not
3 get a chance to see. This is (unintelligible).
4 It was spoken about by Dorothy Johnson earlier
5 this morning. That can be -- refresh and awake.
6 That this is Dorothy's late
7 mother Angela George, July 17, 1989 with two young
8 children who came with her to learn about this
9 place, an important pit house site.
10 There are a number of (muffled)
11 in the book cited in the table -- that will tell
12 you about the stories, the songs that they heard
13 in this area, and also about the people who were
14 essentially victims of the last gold rush in this
15 area.
16 People who passed away from
17 smallpox, died of starvation because they were too
18 weak to get out of those pit houses, because they
19 were -- they were passing on from smallpox.
20 Angela George in her lifetime
21 pointed out the little burials, the shallow graves
22 right at the edge of these pit houses that must
23 have been put in by people who were too weak to
24 get....
25 Now, also by these houses are 266
1 springs, springs which would be impacted by any
2 kind of poison that would need to be spread
3 underneath a transmission line.
4 So we've got a spot here where
5 we've got important berries, we've got medicines
6 and we have water, all of which would have -- be
7 changed by any kind of disturbance from a power
8 line going in. And I've detailed in this very
9 brief set of speakers notes that I've given you
10 some of those impacts.
11 We did a site visit in 2010 to
12 ground truth, the findings from my doctoral
13 research. And so these four came with us and
14 spoke about these places. These are Dorothy
15 Johnson, Angela George, Ms. Robbins and also
16 Juliana Johnson.
17 Here's the view looking up to
18 the hills. If you continue on up there are 50 pit
19 house sites it is reported at the top of this
20 hill. So this is an area of tremendous
21 significance.
22 Salmon down river, springs up
23 river, stories of graveyards, homes, medicines,
24 berries. This entire area is still coursed over
25 by people and animals today. 267
1 I'm just going to switch
2 through -- significance species found in the area
3 include rye grass --
4 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: I think
5 Chief Robbins is showing you a yellow card over
6 there.
7 MS. PALMER: He's showing me
8 five minutes, but I take it time to stop, isn't
9 it, Fred? I still have five minutes. Okay.
10 Just when we were there, Angela
11 George found wild onions. And I'll tell you, this
12 is something that absolutely is the newest thing.
13 What we are starting to realize is in these pit
14 houses, these little depressions. Of course
15 there's a little more water that can be there.
16 It's a little moister than the side hills around
17 them.
18 So this little cachement basin
19 here, we're not sure why, not sure if the cattle
20 don't like to go in it or what, but there are all
21 kinds of interesting species that have been
22 disturbed in other places, perhaps grazed over
23 that we're finding, like that rye grass, right in
24 the middle of the pit house. So there's some very
25 interesting things and further research has got to 268
1 be done on these places.
2 Nancy Turner, the eminent
3 ethnobotonist. You met her, she talked about
4 cultural keystones species, cultural keystone
5 areas in hearings earlier by Skype.
6 I've consulted with her on this
7 particular spot and she is of the opinion that
8 this would be a candidate for a cultural keystone
9 site. I am very much inclined to agree. I never
10 dreamed that this place where we had spent so much
11 time documenting stories would ever have something
12 coursing overhead like a power line. It strikes
13 me as being a violation of the sacred site.
14 This is a place where people
15 pray up in the hills, come to remember their dead
16 and report hearing the voices of their ancestors.
17 This is not a place that, in my opinion, needs
18 power lines overhead or within site.
19 It's an extremely important
20 place, and one of only many.
21 I refer you back to Dorothy
22 Johnson's testimony. She talked about one of
23 those very special loop trails that her parents
24 would make fishing on the other side of the river
25 and going all the way up Joe's Lake Road and 269
1 coming back into this area.
2 All important sites, all
3 connected by trail and all exceptionally important
4 for the education of young people. This isn't a
5 program that needs to be put in place with extra
6 money. This is something that is happening every
7 day here.
8 This is one of the most
9 important areas for people at Esk'etemc and also
10 at Dog Creek, their relatives. This is a place
11 where people meet from those two places.
12 It's no accident when people
13 brought you to Little Dog Creek the other day, it
14 was two groups of people in the government side,
15 but it's one group of people in terms of family
16 relations. A power line through there severs
17 connections in ways that we can only begin to
18 think about.
19 I very much appreciate the
20 Panel's time and patience. Thank you for
21 listening today.
22 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
23 Dr. Palmer. Again, I would go forward to Taseko.
24 MS. GIZIKOFF: Just a very
25 brief one, thank you, Mr. Chairman. 270
1 With regards to the wild onions
2 that you speak of, is that Little Dog that you are
3 speaking of?
4 MS. PALMER: This is directly
5 across the river and just -- if you go just across
6 the road and then you look up over your shoulder
7 around the corner in the place in fact where one
8 of the maps that you showed earlier today shows
9 the power line -- it's quite difficult to figure
10 out exactly where you're placing that from those
11 three maps, because it, of course, does seem to
12 jump around a bit. But as near as we can tell,
13 this is under that (unintelligible due to
14 extraneous noise).
15 Yes, those are picked on that
16 day in 2010.
17 MS. GIZIKOFF: Thank you. And
18 just for clarification there, the alignment
19 actually hasn't been finalized.
20 MS. PALMER: Yes. This is what
21 is so difficult. I could have spent two hours
22 giving you --
23 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: No, you
24 couldn't.
25 MS. PALMER: -- each place of 271
1 800 meters going along. We picked the one that
2 seems to be the most relevant to what we see as
3 where you've cited this. Everyone in this village
4 has stories about places around here.
5 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you,
6 Dr. Palmer.
7 CHIEF ROBBINS: Three minutes.
8 PRESENTATION BY DR. MAKERE STEWART-HARAWIRE
9 DR. STEWART-HARAWIRE: I
10 apologize to (unintelligible) seemly brevity of my
11 words, my dispensing with my normal cultural
12 protocols, indifference to the shortness of time.
13 My name is Dr. Madere
14 Stewart-Hawawira, M-A-K-E-R-E; surname
15 S-T-E-W-A-R-T hyphen H-A-W-A-W-I-R-A.
16 I'm an associate professor at
17 the University of Alberta, and I'm told by the
18 Chief to slow down.
19 I was going to address instead
20 of the four listed here, and you don't have them,
21 three key areas to do with this hearing.
22 They are: International legal
23 norms with regard to the human rights of
24 indigenous peoples, and as an aside, it's
25 noteworthy the United Nations Official Rapateur 272
1 for the Rights Of Indigenous Peoples is coming to
2 Canada in October for the purpose of examining the
3 human rights situation of the indigenous peoples
4 of this country.
5 The right to the maintenance
6 and preservation of cultural traditions and
7 practices or commonly referred to as cultural
8 heritage. I will skim over the link between
9 preservation of biodiversity and the protection of
10 indigenous lands. It was addressed in my previous
11 submission, and I will speak to or mention the
12 right to self-determined sustainable development.
13 I will pass over listing of the
14 international legal instruments and go to the
15 right to cultural heritage.
16 For the sake of the two minutes
17 that is staring me in the face here. Let me just
18 mention the 2001 Universal Declaration on Cultural
19 Diversity, UNESCO -- (muffled) integral part of
20 human rights, which are universal and indivisible
21 and interdependent.
22 Let me mention specifically
23 that the right to cultural heritage is imbedded in
24 the international covenant on civil and political
25 rights, ICCPR, in the international covenant on 273
1 economic social and cultural rights, IEC ESC, both
2 of which are recognized as having relevance to
3 cultural heritage and are binding on the signatory
4 state which includes Canada having ratified the
5 twin covenants of 2006.
6 I will refer to article 1527
7 and I will move from there to the United Nations
8 declaration on the rights of indigenous people,
9 which the Panel will be aware Canada endorsed or
10 ratified in November 2010, plus a few minutes --
11 mission of the importance of the declaration.
12 Under some of the provisions of
13 this declaration, one in particular, article 8,
14 indigenous peoples and individuals have the right
15 not to be subjected to forced assimilation or
16 destruction of the culture, et cetera.
17 Article 11, indigenous peoples
18 have the right to practice and revitalize the
19 cultural traditions and customs. This includes
20 the right to maintain, critique and develop the
21 past, present and future manifestations of the
22 cultures' archeological sites.
23 Article 12, indigenous peoples
24 shall have the right to manifest practice, develop
25 and teach the spiritual and religious traditions 274
1 -- am I going to fast? Customs and ceremonies,
2 the right to maintain, protect and have (muffled)
3 privacy to the religious and culture sites, the
4 right to use and control of the ceremonial
5 objects, the right to the repatriation of human
6 rights and so forth.
7 Mr. Chairman, we have heard the
8 proposed transmission lines would include the
9 largest ever clear cut through the forest. We
10 have heard that the proposed transmission line
11 impacts several sacred sites and protected areas.
12 Clear and unequivocal evidence (muffled) regarding
13 the holding the specific ceremonies and gatherings
14 involving the transmission and exchange of
15 traditional knowledge and practices, which are
16 directly concerned also with the retention and
17 maintenance of language and culture.
18 I would like to just go
19 immediately, if you don't mind, to the fate we are
20 really fortunate that in July 2013 the Special
21 Rapateur for the rights of indigenous people,
22 (unintelligible), delivered his report to the
23 human rights council regarding indigenous peoples'
24 in the extractive resource industries.
25 I would like to direct the 275
1 attention of the Panel in particular to section 3
2 which deals with the standard scenario when states
3 or third party business enterprises promote the
4 natural extraction of natural resources with an
5 indigenous territory.
6 And the statement:
7
8 "Just as indigenous peoples have the
9 right to pursue their own initiatives
10 for resource extraction, is part of the
11 right to self-determination, and to set
12 these strategies for development they
13 have the right to decline to pursue such
14 initiatives as many do and no doubt will
15 continue to do."
16
17 Paragraph 19 of the same
18 section 3 includes the statement:
19
20 "The right to freedom of expression and
21 to participation of --"
22
23 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Dr. Stewart,
24 three minutes were up five minutes ago.
25 MS. STEWART-HAWAWIRA: Thank 276
1 you very much, sir.
2 MR. KUPFER: I do need to say
3 something to you, to both you. You have made
4 submissions to us. I have not yet read your
5 submissions, but we will read your submissions, so
6 I don't want you to think just by having wasted
7 your time, but we can't receive a whole 109 pages,
8 the original one that we have in the record. But
9 we'll read them, and I hope that is some comfort
10 to you and to the community.
11 MS. STEWART-HAWAWIRA: Thank
12 you very much.
13 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Mr.
14 Gustafson?
15 MR. GUSTAFSON: Yes, Mr.
16 Chairman, I rise reluctantly.
17 I rise reluctantly and I would
18 offer that perhaps the Chair would indulge in a
19 little stoppage time, if I'm intruding on the
20 presentation time that remains.
21 There is a tremendous amount of
22 information that's been presented in a very fast
23 way. It's impossible for us to actually deal with
24 it and if could suggest that -- I don't think this
25 is really a productive use of time, and certainly 277
1 I know counsel had asked for 30 minutes. I can't
2 imagine what we would accomplish in the next two
3 minutes, or one minute, of the time remaining if
4 she were to attempt to race through that.
5 MS. SHOCKEY: I'll take no more
6 than five minutes.
7 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Okay. You
8 get five minutes, Taseko comes next, I come after
9 that.
10 PRESENTATION BY JAELA SHOCKEY:
11 MS. SHOCKEY: Thank you, Mr.
12 Chair. My name is Jaela Shockey, legal counsel
13 for Esk'etemc. I will summarize only.
14 So I want to hit the aspect of
15 title. With respect to title, the previous Panel
16 found that the mitigations that it created would
17 not eliminate or accommodate the significant loss
18 that First Nations would experience as a result of
19 the project. Panel report said this at page 245.
20 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Could you
21 hit the highlights rather than speak quickly,
22 please?
23 MS. SHOCKEY: Sure.
24 So depending on the size of the
25 land settlement, the project may result in a 278
1 significant adverse impact to title was the
2 Panel's findings. Esk'etemc's position is that
3 the project may result in an adverse impact to
4 title, and indeed a significant impact regardless
5 of the land settlement size in the treaty process,
6 because the project will effectively take up lands
7 within its statement of intent area in traditional
8 territory.
9 In particular, I would like to
10 highlight the Little Dog area. We heard from
11 members today and yesterday at the site visit that
12 this is an area where there are numerous pit
13 houses. Pit houses are an example of evidence
14 that is used to support title claims and this is
15 dated in case law as -- similarly with village
16 sites. Village sites are also evidence of title.
17 So, rather, than going into
18 that, I just want to highlight for the Panel that
19 when you're looking at occupation and use, it is
20 with specific tracts of land, as the Court of
21 Appeal has just clarified for us in the Xeni
22 Gwet'in case.
23 But in terms of looking that
24 the occupation, I would like to draw you to one
25 quote from (unintelligible), paragraph 194; that 279
1 when we're looking at forms of occupation and use
2 for title, in pragmatic terms, this means looking
3 at the matter in which the society used the land
4 to live, namely, to establish villages to work, to
5 get to work, to hunt, to travel, to hunting
6 grounds, to fish, to get to fishing pools and to
7 conduct religious rights.
8 We've heard evidence today and
9 yesterday that the entire community of the
10 Esk'etemc did all of those things at Little Dog
11 and in the area surrounding the transmission line.
12 So I would like to draw that to your attention, as
13 well as one other important piece.
14 We've heard about particular
15 fishing rocks at Little Dog, and that is also
16 evidence of title as well as the locations of
17 village sites, encampments and, as I said,
18 grouping pit houses that is confirmed by the court
19 in the Roger Williams case at paragraph 215. I
20 just wanted to hit that aspect of title for you.
21 In terms of the Panel's
22 understanding of how the transmission line will
23 adversely affect the title through treaty
24 negotiations.
25 I want to make it clear that if 280
1 the transmission line is put in, it will devalue
2 the lands for the purpose of treaty, not only
3 economically will those be lands will be worth
4 less, but this means the First Nation will have
5 less opportunity to make its own land use
6 decisions about what it would do on its title
7 lands.
8 For your clarity and
9 information, the land package that First Nation
10 receives under treaty is subject to their full
11 jurisdiction laws and control as set out in
12 treaty, so they are entitled say yes or no to a
13 development.
14 So I would like to refer back
15 to that question which came before Irvine without
16 much notice today about -- what if Esk'etemc was
17 land owner. If Esk'etemc was land owner and we
18 were dealing with an application for a
19 transmission line after a treaty when these were
20 treaty settlement lands, Esk'etemc would have the
21 right to say yes or no, and to accept the
22 transmission line on the terms and conditions that
23 would be suitable to it, whether it would or would
24 not, would be a decision up to the band. But
25 today we've heard in pre-treaty circumstance with 281
1 the title lands, there are numerous effects,
2 sacred areas, as well as effects to livelihood,
3 way of life and devaluing the land for title
4 purposes.
5 So to the extent that the
6 transmission line does devalue the land and the
7 sacred sites. I also wanted to mention, we heard
8 Irvine at the site visit say yesterday that this
9 was an area, one of their most important
10 historical village sites at Little Dog where the
11 transmission line goes through.
12 Wrapping it up.
13 I'm not going to be able to --
14 hit right, so we've got half of aboriginal law in
15 one point five minutes.
16 I'll note that the Crown has
17 inadequate consultation, for the record, and none
18 of the other concerns that we have will be able to
19 be raised with respect to title. So we will
20 expect to discuss all of that with the Crown.
21 But you were interested in how
22 would that be mitigated. I submit there is no
23 compensation mitigation or accommodation that has
24 been proposed by Taseko or the Crown to date with
25 respect to adverse impacts to title. 282
1 I submitted the impacts chart
2 which sets out all of outstanding concerns. There
3 won't be a chance to explain to you how it works,
4 but it is legible, so if you do have questions
5 please let me know.
6 And if that's the end of my
7 time, I won't go into rights.
8 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you,
9 Ms. Shockey.
10 Just as I turn Taseko to
11 respond -- sorry, not to respond, but for
12 questions, I just want you to know I did pick up
13 on the yellow card stoppage time linkage. It was
14 a cute one.
15 Any questions for Ms. Shockey?
16 MS. GIZIKOFF: No.
17 In the essence of time, we'll
18 refrain -- right to the submit additional comments
19 in writing at a later time.
20 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: In that
21 case, the next step is for your response you've
22 heard today.
23 CLOSING REMARKS BY TASEKO:
24 MS. GIZIKOFF: Thank you.
25 I'll be as fast as possible and 283
1 as brief as possible, not to reiterate anything
2 that we said but just try to summarize a few
3 things.
4 I think what we covered today
5 was the fact that this project has faced a land
6 issue and that we have heard great frustration
7 with the lack of recognition and settlement of
8 aboriginal title, and slow progress with treaty.
9 We've heard that the parties
10 are in stage four of the treaty process, perhaps
11 nearing stage five, and that there is no agreement
12 in principle yet, and no measures by the Crown
13 have been taken to protect any of the lands that
14 may have been included in settlement, which is
15 probably causing significant concern to the
16 community.
17 Protection of the lands that
18 might be included generally comes after an
19 agreement in principle.
20 When lands are included in
21 settlement, they are generally subject to
22 pre-existing rites and tenures, and private lands
23 are not expropriated for inclusion in treaty
24 settlements.
25 I'm somewhat confused by the 284
1 map we have in front of us today because there is
2 numerous parcels of privately owned land along
3 grasslands on either side of the river. But I was
4 introduced earlier to Tara Todd MacDonald, the
5 assistant negotiator from the (unintelligible). I
6 believe she's still there. And she perhaps can
7 correct this understanding if I'm wrong.
8 Regardless, we also heard about
9 sacred areas that the map that Irving had
10 produced. That area on the west side of the
11 Fraser River had not been identified to us before
12 in our past engagement with the Esk'etemc.
13 But in any case, with regards
14 to cultural heritage, pit houses and avoiding
15 burial sites should the project proceed, Taseko
16 works toward with working with Esk'etemc in a
17 working group and on our archeological impact
18 assessment and final alignment to ensure that
19 there is avoidance of any sensitive sites or
20 historical sites, and this offer is made with all
21 -- also with the offer of capacity to find, to
22 insure that Esk'etemc can participate.
23 We also heard the importance of
24 traditional lifestyle, and that being balanced
25 with mainstream society can clash between two 285
1 cultures.
2 The protection of the Taseko
3 River and salmon. Salmon and the Fraser River has
4 always been a top priority to this project. The
5 project is not predicted to have an impact on
6 water and the river, or salmon, and should not
7 impact anyone's ability to fish at the traditional
8 fishing sites in the Fraser River.
9 With regards to moose. We
10 heard many references to moose and mule deer in
11 the previous Panel report. There was references
12 on page 131, I think it was Chief Robbins that
13 started with that. But we forgot to mention that
14 on page 131 it also states that the primary
15 contributors to direct mortality of moose and mule
16 deer was hunting and vehicle collisions.
17 We've talked a fair bit about
18 moose at some of the other sessions that this
19 community has been privy too. But we referred to
20 recent study by the province, and they provide
21 recommendations in that study for dealing with the
22 declining moose population.
23 First, reducing the kills of
24 cows and calves, which I say won't get into here;
25 second measure is reducing the -- having the 286
1 targeted management of wolf populations, cow
2 (muffled) continue to be low. I doubt very much
3 that Taseko would be keen on participating
4 directly in that program. We have enough
5 challenges with perspection (ph).
6 But thirdly the report
7 recommends reducing the vulnerable of cows and
8 calves to the reduction and accessibility to them,
9 and that is consistent with our access planning
10 initiatives that we're proposing for this project
11 and directly linked to the mitigation measures
12 that we're proposing for this access corridor
13 working with First Nations and others to reduce
14 some of the road densities in the alignment area.
15 We also -- my final point
16 before passing it over to Greg Yelland with a
17 comment.
18 My final point was with the
19 Esk'etemc community forest, particularly
20 challenging to align this transmission line while
21 recognizing the various trade offs that we have to
22 -- values between grasslands and forest.
23 But I did want to mention
24 something that Gord and I both missed to bring to
25 the Panel's attention, is that the community 287
1 forest is an area-based tenure, and it's one that
2 I think Esk'etemc's communicated before on record
3 to being picked away at by the old growth
4 management areas and the (muffled) winter ranges
5 and now transmission lines.
6 And we would support Esk'etemc
7 to approach the province to have that boundary
8 adjusted or expanded to compensate for those
9 harvesting losses.
10 Greg?
11 MR. YELLAND: Thank you,
12 Katherine.
13 I would just like to thank
14 everybody who got up today. It was not easy
15 getting up. It takes a lot of courage to get up
16 and speak from the heart.
17 I can assure you that we've
18 listened and we're trying to understand. I'm not
19 sure that we can ever truly understand First
20 Nations way of life unless we grew up in that
21 culture, but we are trying. And that's why we
22 need to work together.
23 It's unfortunate that we have
24 to go through this kind of form in order to
25 communicate, but that's the way it is at the 288
1 moment, and because of that we have been picking
2 up on certain things that we believe are
3 important.
4 I'm focused mostly on the
5 technical side of things so I'm going to talk
6 about the one thing that I saw today that has been
7 cropping up several times throughout the Panel
8 sessions, and that is the question around when
9 will the transmission line be removed.
10 We've gone back to our
11 consultants and we've asked them to take a look at
12 that, and the main reason that we have a
13 transmission line after closure of the mine is to
14 run the pumps to run the recirculation back into
15 the streams. They have had a look at that and
16 they have come up with a number of scenarios that
17 they think we can work with that would either
18 eliminate recirculation all together or at least
19 after closure.
20 I'm not saying they're perfect,
21 but what this EA process that we're in right now
22 is more of a -- it's a preliminary design. We put
23 in our modelling the worst case scenarios and what
24 we do is we try to design a system that will
25 manage that worst case scenario. 289
1 Past the EA process, we start
2 getting into detail design, detailed engineering.
3 And from a quick look at things at the moment, we
4 feel that we can get into some detail design that
5 will either eliminate the recirculation or, at
6 least post-closure (muffled), can get rid of it.
7 So for this reason, I guess I
8 can say still that there's a specific date when we
9 will be shutting that transmission line down and
10 de-commissioning it and rehabilitating the land.
11 But you can be assured that Taseko that committed
12 to moving the line as soon as possible after
13 closure.
14 I think that's it, unless
15 Christy has a few words to say. Thank you very
16 much to everybody.
17 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
18 very much, Mr. Yelland, Ms. Gizikoff.
19 CLOSING REMARKS BY THE PANEL:
20 For my comments, I have to do
21 my usual -- leave the head sets here for the sound
22 people to pick up.
23 I thank Alkali Creek for its
24 generous hospitality, both yesterday where I think
25 I concur with Dr. Palmer who said that we were 290
1 given very useful information that we were
2 privileged to receive. I think that's also true
3 today in terms of -- from the quality of the lunch
4 to the work that was done to organize this session
5 to the generous ideas that came forward from the
6 community and perhaps especially from Chief
7 Robbins this morning, and that was very helpful to
8 the Panel.
9 There's probably something I've
10 missed, but I know that tomorrow we're in Dog
11 Creek at the community gymnasium, 10 to 6.
12 And with that, I will turn at
13 this time over to Chief Robbins for the closing
14 ceremony. Again, thank you, very much for your
15 kind hospitality.
16 --- Closing ceremonies.
17 --- All the foregoing non-English words, when
18 spellings not provided, are represented
19 phonetically.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing was adjourned at 6:47
21 p.m., to resume at 10:00 a.m. on Wednesday,
22 August 21st, 2013
23
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1 C E R T I F I C A T I O N
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3 I, COURTNEY MIDDLETON, a certified Court Reporter
4 in the Province of Ontario, hereby certify the
5 foregoing pages to be an accurate transcription of
6 my notes to the best of my skill and ability.
7
8 Je, Courtney Middleton, un sténographe officiel
9 dans la province de l'Ontario, certifie que les
10 pages ci-hautes sont une transcription conforme de
11 mes notes au meilleur de mes capacités.
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15 Courtney Middleton ,
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17 Courtney Middleton, CSR, RPR
18 Certified Court Reporter.
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1 C E R T I F I C A T I O N
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3 I, SANDRA BRERETON, a certified Court Reporter in
4 the Province of Ontario, hereby certify the
5 foregoing pages to be an accurate transcription of
6 my notes to the best of my skill and ability.
7
8 Je, Sandra Brereton, un sténographe officiel dans
9 la province de l'Ontario, certifie que les pages
10 ci-hautes sont une transcription conforme de mes
11 notes au meilleur de mes capacités.
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14 Sandra Brereton ,
15
16 Sandra Brereton, CSR, RPR
17 Certified Court Reporter.
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